Episode #44: The Respect for Marriage Act, The Changes to The Salt Lake Temple & What It Means for The LDS Church & Mormonism W/Benjamin Shaffer

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So just a warning right now,
this is not an episode meant for

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little ears because things are
going to get a little spicy in

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this conversation on this
episode of the podcast.

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We're going to talk about the
Des.

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I mean respect for marriage act,
that was passed about a month

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ago.
What you didn't think.

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I wasn't going to cover this.
I wanted to wait until after the

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bill has passed find out exactly
what the law would be there.

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This episode I bring Ben Shafer
back on the podcast to break the

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law.
Ah, down because the Benz legal

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training is an attorney.
I felt like he was the man for

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the job, we cover, what the law
says, and what it means to

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Mormons and more specifically
the LDS church since the church

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through its weight behind the
bill, we then cover how the LDS

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church has supported.
This bill actually seems to walk

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hand-in-hand with the physical
changes being made to the Salt

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Lake Temple to date.
I think it is perhaps the most

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honest conversation.
I've had on the podcast about

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all the changes that have
happened to the LDS church stick

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around for a fascinating.
Conversation on this episode of

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the Mormon, Renegade podcast.
So, to be the people, we want to

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Again, thank you for everything
you do as well as for listening

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to the podcast.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Well, welcome back to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
So today we're going to be

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talking with Ben Shafer and
we're going to start off talking

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about the district's or excuse
me, the respect for marriage

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act.
So if you got kids around, you

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may want to go ahead and shoot
them out of the room, because I

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have a feeling this one, could
get a little spicy.

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So Ben, dude, it's good to have
you back.

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Thank you.
It's great to be back in the

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podcast.
So real quick, Rick I brought

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you on because because you're
trained as an attorney, right?

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You have your law license and I
always find that nice kind of

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things Nuance plays a big, a big
role in it and I typically find

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that most attorneys because
they're trained to argue.

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Right.
That's sure.

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That's that's a lot of is
they're trying to argue and so

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the amount of nuance I think is
important here real quick

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breakdown for us what the
Defense of Marriage Act Is or I

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shouldn't say that.
But the don't get me wrong.

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You're on the right track, the
Defense of Marriage Act was the

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one that was passed during the
Clinton years, right?

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And the respect for Marriage Act
is the one that just passed,

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okay, solder Biden, what?
Let's go back.

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Even a little bit, explain a
little bit.

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What the Defense of Marriage Act
was with Clinton?

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So yeah.
The Defense of Marriage Act

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which, you know, it was in the
90s.

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That's getting to be a while
ago, right?

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But I think most of us will
agree the nineties.

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Don't feel like ancient history
yet.

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Know, back in the 90s was really
win.

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When you saw Lawrence V Texas,
the Supreme Court case that said

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that homosexual.
Activity could not be

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criminalized that there that the
right to privacy.

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Essentially extended to say that
homosexuality isn't a criminal

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act.
It's a private act and that

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people should have the right to
have their own privacy.

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And of course the pride
movements Pride, Parade things

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like that.
Had already been going on for a

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while but they were getting to
be there going to be more

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mainstream, you know it was it
wasn't just the thing that was

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going on with say like the
Harvey Milk riots and things

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like that.
It was starting to be more of a,

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an issue that people were
talking about people talking

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about gay rights and
homosexuality more in the public

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discourse.
And so they were really worried

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that there might be something
like gay marriage eventually

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happen, right?
And so in the 90s, they passed

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the Defense of Marriage Act,
which sit on a federal level,

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that no marriage would be
recognized.

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No marriage would be valid,
unless it was between a man and

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a woman.
All right?

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And so yeah, in the 90s that it
was a big bipartisan supported

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thing.
I mean, so for example, it's

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worth noting that Biden was in
favor of it and Biden voted for

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it at the time, even even it was
under the Clinton

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Administration.
Sure sure.

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I mean, Democrats were very
supportive of the Defense of

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Marriage Act at the time to say
that it would, you know, the

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they want to make sure that
marriage stay between a man and

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a woman and that gay marriage
wouldn't be considered.

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And, and if it was brought up or
even attempted by any state, or

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Municipality that it would be
struck down essentially

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overruled by this federal law
that would prohibit gay

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marriage.
Now of course, the respect for

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Marriage Act is exactly the
opposite intention.

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Before we go there, I want to
touch on one more Landmark case

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because I want to show the
progression on this, right?

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Yeah.
You went how quick it is?

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Yes, because we went from Bill
Clinton.

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You know.
Mr. I'm not totally for gay

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marriage, right?
I'm not.

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That's not my thing.
Even if And Obama said, said

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during his Run for the
presidency he was he was opposed

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to gay marriage.
Yeah, even Obama.

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Yeah, right.
And so we go through there and

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then in the in 2008, you really
start seeing some or 2000, the

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early 2000s, you start seeing
things pick up momentum on that

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side of the argument, right
2010, 2012 things really start

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getting and then in 2015, I
believe we have the Kourt who

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comes out and says what the
auger befell decision.

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Yes.
And they say that and it's an

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interesting reasoning, but they
basically make it so that

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there's federally recognized gay
marriage.

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So, even the states that hadn't
yet tried to pass their own

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thing or had to have their own
Court.

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Local Court decisions, that
would have allowed gay marriage,

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the Supreme Court of United
States.

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Now, says, that that's
constitutional, that its

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constitutional, I do, Gay
marriage by then already

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overruled parts of it, but but
the Defense of Marriage Act was

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at that point, completely
overturned and and gay marriage

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became standard in all 50 states
in the territories, right?

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It just became American law.
However, this is exactly what

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led up to this after that,
right?

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So you've got two cents,
obviously, it wasn't unanimous,

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not all the Supreme Court,
people voted in favor of our

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befell and one of those who was
against it Was Clarence, Thomas.

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Well, Clarence Thomas recently
had an opportunity with the the

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abortion case, right?
The Dobbs decision in the Dobbs

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decision, Clarence Thomas makes
an aside kind of just a comment,

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right?
It's not law.

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He just says, you know, maybe we
should revisit the auger Rafael

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decision.
In other words, maybe we should

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reconsider whether or not
marriage can be defined.

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As including gay marriage, maybe
we should overturn that

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basically, he says in his
comments and that made people

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panic because they're thinking
wait a second, if we've got a

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conservative Supreme Court right
now and he's suggesting that

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they re here, that case all you
need is somebody to bring some

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kind of a challenge in front of
them and they could overturn

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that and essentially allow
States individually at least to

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Outlaw gay marriage again, okay?
So let me recap here and tell me

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if I'm wrong.
So in the S.

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We have the Defense of Marriage
Act which in some ways was a

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compromise.
They basically said, look, we're

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not going to go prosecute
homosexuals anymore for what

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happens behind closed doors,
right.

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It'll decriminalization
essentially.

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And and I think most Americans
are okay with that even

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conservative America.
Oh sure, right.

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It's like look, we don't want
the government in our pocketbook

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or our bedroom, right?
So so we're good with this,

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right?
And so it seemed like a good

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compromise.
And unless in just about a

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decade, right?
Because if I'm not mistaken, the

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defensive Marriage Act was mid
90s mid to late?

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Yeah. 98, I think it was in 20
years.

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We now have a Supreme Court
decision that says, it's the law

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of the land, essentially, gay
marriage is legal in the law of

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the land, which to me, didn't
didn't seem correct.

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Because it's my understanding of
the Constitution that anything

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that's not specifically,
enumerated to the federal

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government is returned back to
quote, the people I either the

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states.
So in some, in some ways, I saw

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a conflict there.
Now, in this time, I'm a member

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of the LDS church.
I remember thinking.

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Okay, we can put this to bed,
right?

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I'm not going to touch your
stuff.

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You're not going to touch my
stuff, sort of a thing between

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the two Riders more on.
This is really, I think this

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hits it right on the head.
As to why this respect for

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Marriage Act is a big deal and a
big deal to the LDS church,

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right?
This is why we're talking about

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in the moment, right?
Again, podcast, right, with his

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Mormon issue.
Now, One of the reasons this is

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such a more of an issue is
because of the fear of the

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church losing its tax status for
having a unconventional opinion

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essentially, if the government
has decided that gay marriage is

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the law of the land.
What happens when you have a

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church, that doesn't have gay
marriage in that church, right?

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Right.
And don't forget again, not

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super ancient history, but about
40 years ago. 45 years ago.

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00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:09,400
Bob Jones University was this
important case, And and I

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personally believe that it would
have been the Church of Jesus

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00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:16,200
Christ of Latter Day Saints
case, if it hadn't been for

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00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,000
Jimmy, Carter's visit to to
Spencer W.

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00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,800
Kimball, basically, instead of
being about marriage, that one

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was about race and they were
pushing to say, look, if a, if a

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church, or a university, or a
non-profit of any kind does not

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00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:37,900
accept.
Interracial marriage then they

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00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:41,400
should be stripped of their tax
status and Bob Jones University

236
00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,300
and the Churches of Christ.
Let us say it's we're both on

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00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:47,900
the chopping block to become the
poster children for a court case

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00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:53,300
where they were going to push to
essentially strip the strip them

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00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:57,000
of the tax status.
Well the Church of course 1978

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00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,600
in June of 1978 comes out with
official declaration number two

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00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,700
and avoids that you know Dodges
that bullet.

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00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,700
But that same year, Bob Jones
University does not dodged that

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00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:09,700
bullet.
They say, no, we believe that

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00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:13,200
interracial marriage is a sin in
the eyes of God, and we are not

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00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,400
going to change our Doctrine for
the government.

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00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:19,400
And so their case gets in front
of the Supreme Court by 1980

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00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,900
1981 and they are stripped of
all their assets.

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00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,300
And so the concern is, you know,
look at this recent judicial

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00:13:29,300 --> 00:13:31,700
history, what if they do the
same thing with gay marriage is

250
00:13:31,700 --> 00:13:32,900
that it with interracial
marriage.

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00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,400
What if If the government says,
look any institution any church,

252
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,800
any nonprofit that doesn't have
this type of marriage should be

253
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,200
stripped of their of their
status and or have their assets

254
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,300
seized or something like that,
right?

255
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,200
And so this is why the church,
obviously, why the church is so

256
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,500
nervous about this this
situation at some point.

257
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:59,700
The like some kind of law is
going to be passed saying that

258
00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:01,600
you have to respect gay
marriage.

259
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,000
What are we going to do to avoid
that?

260
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:05,900
Bullet so we don't lose our tax
status.

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00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:09,300
So we don't have all of our
assets seized when that day

262
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:11,700
comes.
And then this is why the church

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00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:14,700
is finding this to be a
compromise that they think they

264
00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:18,000
can live with.
But here's the thing as I read

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00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,900
the bill, Ryan, the one that was
just passed this week and I've

266
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:24,000
been wanting to talk about this
for a while but I wanted to see

267
00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:27,200
what the final bill looked like
because you did have a few guys

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00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,900
like Mike Lee who are out there
saying this doesn't give enough

269
00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:35,600
protections to be a compromise
is Is that your understanding in

270
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,600
the reading?
I'm going to slightly, I don't

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00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,000
think it's a great.
I don't think it's it is very

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00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,000
strong.
It's kind of aspirational.

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00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:52,200
It does say a few things about
it.

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00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,600
Does say a few things about
protecting, religious freedoms,

275
00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:59,200
but it's not like those are kind
of Toothless parts of the bill.

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00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,200
And I think that's, that's the
concern is that, I'm just not

277
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,400
sure that it is.
It's possible.

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00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,000
So here's one of the things that
the church said about it.

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00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:17,200
Let's see here, it was Elder
Jack Gerard.

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00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:23,200
He's a he's a 70 and he says
that one of the reasons why the

281
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,000
church was going to support it
is he says his is the church's

282
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,900
belief that the support of these
amendments.

283
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,200
And I quote the support of these
amendments will ensure that all

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00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,100
religious people and
institutions are respected and

285
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:36,100
protected even though they have
a doctor.

286
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,000
Yes, that's inconsistent with
the law of the land, and by the

287
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,500
way, I've got a bone to pick
unquote.

288
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:45,900
I've got a bone to pick with
using the term, the law of the

289
00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:49,400
land in this context, but will
save will save my libertarian

290
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:55,400
renting for another time but
excuse me, but I think it's

291
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,300
really important to recognize
that that was the purpose.

292
00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:01,200
Supposedly, that's the reason
why the church supported this

293
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,400
respect for Marriage Act.
But is it really good enough

294
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,300
insurance?
Keep the church out of trouble.

295
00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:10,600
I just don't think it is.
Here's what I've noticed, right?

296
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,700
We're seeing a pattern here,
right?

297
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,800
And I believe now we're at a
point where it's a

298
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,700
well-established pattern and one
of the other reasons I brought

299
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:22,600
you on Ben, was to temper me a
little bit because you describe

300
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,900
yourself as an lgbtq advocate, a
lie, right?

301
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:31,900
Yeah.
And so I always like to have

302
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:34,400
someone on who can push back
against me, but one of the

303
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,300
things I'm finding and so,
Please correct me if I'm wrong

304
00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:39,500
here.
Is that at first?

305
00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:42,800
It went from hey we just want
tolerance in the same freedoms

306
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,200
as everybody else has to.
Now the it seems to be like, no,

307
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,700
you're going to go full
acceptance of what we are.

308
00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:55,600
You don't get to disagree.
And so I feel like the LDS

309
00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:02,200
church and the the lgbtq agenda
and I want to be very clear.

310
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:08,000
I don't think this is all, you
know, people who unify with

311
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,200
that, you know in the lgbtq
grouping but I think the vocal

312
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,500
ones are playing a very
different game than what the LDS

313
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:22,000
church is playing right I think
the LDS church is still trying

314
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:27,200
to play nice to preserve their
their 501 c 3 status, they're

315
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,900
willing to give give up more
things on the other on on the

316
00:17:31,908 --> 00:17:41,600
lgbtq side I think that they are
in A no-holds-barred battle for

317
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,100
full complete control control.
Yeah.

318
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,200
And and I don't think they're
playing the same game.

319
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,700
Well, and really, if you read
the auger befell decision, that

320
00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:53,700
granted, that that recognized
Nationwide, that gay marriage

321
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:57,800
was would become the law.
When you read that decision,

322
00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:01,500
it's not about people having
their own way or just living

323
00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:05,300
their own lives.
It's all dignity as a word that

324
00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:08,200
comes up again and again, In
that decision, which makes it

325
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,900
very unique and strange Supreme
Court decision in some ways for

326
00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:12,900
that reason.
The talks about how it's about

327
00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:17,000
respect, it's about dignity,
it's it's about acceptance right

328
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,900
there.
Like we need Society to give

329
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:23,800
dignity to homosexual
relationships.

330
00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:29,600
We need, we need Society to give
respect to these this lifestyle.

331
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,400
It's not and which is just a
whole Step Beyond your simple

332
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,400
freedom to do as you please.
If I find it disgusting, right?

333
00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:40,800
Or you have your right to
believe what you want, even if I

334
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,400
believe that you're wrong, no,
it's a whole step further than

335
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:45,800
that.
It's a lot of talk about this

336
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,200
dignity and respect.
Meaning that no, we want

337
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:54,400
Americans to respect
homosexuality as a legitimate

338
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,100
Choice.
How do you do that though,

339
00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:58,300
right?
Because because, let's think

340
00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:00,100
about this.
We're talking about abstract

341
00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:04,100
things, like people, giving
other people, dignity, other

342
00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:06,100
people, giving people giving
other people.

343
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,500
I'll respect, those are things
that are are a matter of

344
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:11,900
conscience.
Hmm.

345
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,100
How do you force that, right?
I might could because you're at

346
00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:17,800
a point now where you can, you
can make it really hard for

347
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,700
people to speak in public,
right?

348
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:22,700
But it's really hard to force
your opinion on anybody, right?

349
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,500
And so, the and I agree with
you, and and I think that was a

350
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:31,200
lot of what really didn't set
well with me and that initial

351
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,700
You know, in that Supreme Court
ruling in 2015 was, I'm like,

352
00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:40,300
how you going to do that?
What are the mechanisms to force

353
00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:44,500
people to do that?
And that concerns me, obviously,

354
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:47,200
with organizations, like the LDS
church, it's real easy.

355
00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:51,000
You're either going to do this
or we are going to strip, your

356
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:53,500
strip, you of your 501, c 3
status.

357
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,600
Which also means that the church
is books are going to become a

358
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,100
lot more transparent very
quickly, which I don't think the

359
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:03,700
LDS church necessarily Wants
right, you see certain

360
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:06,800
pressures?
Now, of what's going on overseas

361
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,600
in places like Australia, where
it seems like the church was,

362
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,700
maybe I won't say laundering
money, but they were certainly

363
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:16,000
given that the old spit shine,
right?

364
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:21,000
And so, I think that the church
was very much in a place of just

365
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,000
trying to add concessions, but I
think in the end game is fairly

366
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,100
obvious.
Am I wrong in any of that?

367
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:34,500
You know, I think that I think
the thing that's tricky is you

368
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:36,100
can't have your cake and eat it
too.

369
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:39,300
That's that's what's this is
coming down to you can't have

370
00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:44,500
your cake and eat it too.
And sooner or later it seems

371
00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:46,900
like something's going to give
and I feel like the church is

372
00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:50,500
probably going to Cave to the
societal pressures.

373
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:53,100
Eventually.
I think that that will be

374
00:20:53,108 --> 00:20:55,400
welcomed by the majority of the
members of the church this

375
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,600
point, right?
Things have changed so rapidly

376
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,000
and you know, what's the next 10
years?

377
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,200
Bring how much more normalized
is that going to be?

378
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:07,100
I mean, is it going to be
normalized to the point that we

379
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:09,000
just want to change our Doctrine
to suit?

380
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,500
What our members already
believe?

381
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,300
Right.
And let's face it.

382
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:15,900
The church is done it before and
so they don't share the

383
00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:17,700
certainly have a problem doing
it again.

384
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:22,000
I think I think maybe the
church's biggest holdup right

385
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,600
now as I think there's probably
and I'm just speculating but I'm

386
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,000
guessing.
There's a good percentage of the

387
00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:31,000
membership who are old school
right and turn of age.

388
00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:34,400
Age and and Outlook.
And I wonder if it's just the

389
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,400
church, just trying to outlast
those folks, right?

390
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,600
Wait for it, right, until
they're in the ground.

391
00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:45,300
And then this new generation
who, let's face it, how that are

392
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:48,900
going to revolt, right?
Who's been indoctrinated at BYU.

393
00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:53,400
But I want to hear one of the
classic places where the

394
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,100
philosophies of men are mingled
with scripture, right?

395
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:57,700
I believe that's a full degree
of BYU.

396
00:21:57,700 --> 00:21:59,900
I could be wrong.
That fact, check that.

397
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,500
Anyway, There there, there
there, they just want to outlast

398
00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:07,700
that last generation.
And then this new generation who

399
00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:10,800
has been raised with quote
Nuance.

400
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,300
It's another great term that I
think often gets conflated with.

401
00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:17,300
Yeah.
What we mean is left thinking,

402
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:19,700
right?
I'm right on this on this deal

403
00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:25,800
and so I don't think it provides
the the protections that they

404
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,500
say it does.
And and energizing the entire

405
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,700
law, a massive Law firm and
kirton mcconkie who has really

406
00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:36,400
good attorneys.
And I know because they do, if

407
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,200
you ever try to argue land with
the LDS church, you're going to

408
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,000
lose good luck.
Yeah, good luck.

409
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:45,100
Fact that these attorneys are
very good at what they do there.

410
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:49,500
So you can't tell me that that
legislation didn't go through

411
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:53,200
kirton mcconkie that they didn't
analyze hand cut out of it.

412
00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:56,300
Absolutely of gal, a chokes, who
was a Utah?

413
00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:58,100
Supreme Court Judge.
Uh-huh.

414
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:04,300
And not know exactly.
What the end game is of that

415
00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:05,900
bill.
I think that's true but I think

416
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:08,100
what they really want the most
is a toehold.

417
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,800
They want to be able to make
their arguments.

418
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,800
They don't lose their arguments.
You know, the this respect for

419
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,700
Marriage Act, it actually passed
the house over the summer with

420
00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:19,300
no protections for religious
institutions whatsoever.

421
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,300
That's terrifying.
And it just in passed the Senate

422
00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:23,900
yet.
So what it was was that there

423
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:26,700
this this whole amendment
process to get all this stuff in

424
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:32,100
there before it actually became
law and that was that's really

425
00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:33,800
where the guys are McConkey.
Were burning.

426
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,100
The midnight oil was trying to
figure out what is the best we

427
00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:39,000
can get in there.
The best foothold we can get in

428
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,300
there, cause we're going to
lose.

429
00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:43,700
I think that they knew they were
going to lose, but they were

430
00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:46,000
like, we need something in that
bill that we can point to, to

431
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,000
say, hey, you got to, you got to
let us have our religion,

432
00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:51,500
though.
You can't just tell us what our

433
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:55,600
religion is and yet it still
feels a pretty toothless to me.

434
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,600
I mean, the the act itself and
I'm afraid I'm going to have to

435
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,500
paraphrase here.
It really what it says is just

436
00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:06,000
that you know people can have
varying opinions on this.

437
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,000
This is what the law is.
This is what the, you know, the

438
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,400
law is going to do this is the
way it's going to be in America,

439
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,200
but people can arrive at a
different conclusion for their

440
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,900
own private religious beliefs,
you know, in good faith.

441
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:22,500
Basically, right.
And I remember thinking, well,

442
00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:24,900
that's pretty toothless, all
you're trying to all you're

443
00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:28,100
trying to do is say that we
respect people's rights enough

444
00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:29,800
to say that.
Some people might disagree.

445
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,900
Three and that it's I guess it's
okay if they do disagree, that's

446
00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:37,500
about it, right?
And I'm just thinking, let's say

447
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:41,100
the Civil Rights Act and said
the same thing about racism.

448
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,200
Would that have saved Bob Jones
University, right?

449
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,000
I don't know.
I don't know.

450
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,400
And I feel the same way about
this.

451
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,800
Now, one of the things that the
oldest church has moved in the

452
00:24:49,808 --> 00:24:53,300
direction of that is smart, is
that you can now get sealed in

453
00:24:53,308 --> 00:24:56,900
the temple and married.
Civilly in two separate

454
00:24:56,900 --> 00:25:00,300
ceremonies.
That's a Step in the right

455
00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:02,600
direction though.
I do think for their own safety.

456
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:06,700
The church needs to completely
cease performing any legal

457
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:09,500
marriage, right?
I think they need the absolutely

458
00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:11,300
need to do that unless they want
to change their Doctrine.

459
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:13,400
And you know what though?
I think I think what you're

460
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,900
hinting at here David is that
you're thinking the church

461
00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:20,400
probably wants a little pressure
so that they can make that move

462
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,200
when they're ready, they're just
only pushed into it before the

463
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,000
right.
I think, I think that's exactly

464
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,500
what it is.
And it's funny the parallels

465
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,700
back to plural, marriage.
Judge on also.

466
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:31,800
Sure.
Right.

467
00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:37,600
I honestly think they want to be
drug to this or appear to be

468
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,100
drug to this the same way it
appeared.

469
00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:44,600
They were drugged to giving up
plural marriage within the

470
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,100
church.
Sure, right.

471
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:49,700
They want to be able to say,
look, we, we tried, but we got

472
00:25:49,700 --> 00:25:52,400
to play nice and don't forget
what it says, in the Articles of

473
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,000
faith, we believe in being
subject to the laws of the land.

474
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,400
And, and gosh, this is just what
we're doing.

475
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,800
So I think.
I think there's a parallel there

476
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,700
to be had that they're going to
be drug to this and I use drug

477
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:07,900
in quotations because I think I
think they're going to be like

478
00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:11,500
no no I don't want go.
Also look that I'm here.

479
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:14,700
Oh well what are we going to do?
I guess we'll have to stand

480
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:17,000
strong.
They'll say and they'll say what

481
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,700
we feel so bad for our gay
brothers and sisters in the

482
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:24,000
church, not being able to enjoy
the full Temple attendance.

483
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,000
And so we've been praying to the
Lord for an answer in this

484
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:27,900
answers.
Come.

485
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,100
Yep.
We're going to change.

486
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,100
The temple ordinances or some
more, or we're going to have gay

487
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:36,500
ceilings or one of those things
will probably it seems

488
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:38,900
inevitable.
Almost with the path that the

489
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:40,600
church is on that they will go
there.

490
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,500
I know that a lot of people
saying that will never happen.

491
00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:46,000
It'll never happen because it
have to change so much Doctrine,

492
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,500
we'd have to change some
settings, but what did they just

493
00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:49,500
do?
Yeah.

494
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,300
In 2019, they all read in 2019.
They already changed the

495
00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:57,800
doctrine right of the temple
regarding gender.

496
00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:00,900
Yep.
Because because A they took out

497
00:27:00,900 --> 00:27:03,500
that little portion and out of
respect, I'm not going to say it

498
00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:06,100
but there's a little portion in
there that kind of sets up the

499
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:09,300
family in the patriarchal order.
Which if you go back into

500
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:12,300
history and you read what the
early Brethren had to say that

501
00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:16,600
is the same government as a God,
right, that God's family is a

502
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,200
patriarchal order.
A patriarchal order by getting

503
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,300
rid of just a few sentences out
of the temple ceremony.

504
00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:27,300
Well, these few sentences are an
actual Covenant, right?

505
00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:29,000
And so, that's a significant
piece.

506
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,500
Yes yes yes but I you know, for
argument's sake a few sentences.

507
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,600
Yeah.
They completely gutted a whole

508
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,800
Covenant and a whole vital part
of that ceremony and I remember

509
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,300
when I have this conversation
with somebody from the LDS

510
00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:49,300
church whose father is a member
of the first Quorum of the

511
00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:53,100
seventy.
He said well gosh some men were

512
00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:55,700
using that Covenant to be
tyrants to their wives.

513
00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:59,500
I'm sure there were and I said
you're right but let me Me ask

514
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:02,300
you this.
If people had a tough time

515
00:28:02,300 --> 00:28:06,000
living the word of wisdom, would
you just get rid of that

516
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,300
entirely?
And there was a great, big long

517
00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:13,200
uncomfortable.
Pause and he said, I think it's

518
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,200
two different things.
I was like, yes, they're two

519
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:20,500
different covenants but, but if
anything, I'm sorry if I have to

520
00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:24,100
go a hierarchy here, tell me
covenants are way higher than

521
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,200
than the word of wisdom which is
literally not even given by

522
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,000
commandment or constraint.
Yes let alone by Covenant.

523
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,600
I do I agree with you.
I'm just I'm just showing that.

524
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,900
Yeah, they're willing to get rid
of one thing.

525
00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:40,700
But not necessarily something
else and the justification they

526
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:45,500
used for one thing.
Isn't right, doesn't apply to

527
00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:49,300
something else.
And so I find it interesting and

528
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:55,700
I think my main concern and I
think a lot of members concern

529
00:28:55,700 --> 00:29:00,900
in the LDS church is that this
is simply the gateway drug to

530
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:04,100
having gay ceilings in the
temple, right?

531
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:07,000
And, you know, I think this is
why people were so shocked when

532
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,600
the church came out vocally and
support, right?

533
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,000
It was like what are you doing?
And I think what they were doing

534
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,700
is they were accepting the
advice of their counselor kirton

535
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:18,200
mcconkie.
This is going to pass if we do

536
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,200
not support some amendments to
it.

537
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:25,600
It'll pass without us and we
will have no way of protecting.

538
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:29,500
Well, for example, they even
mention in their in their

539
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:31,600
remarks.
The LDS church in their remarks,

540
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,900
they mention that they had to
they had to act to protect

541
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,600
Church schools.
So BYU comes into this again,

542
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:40,300
right?
They wanted to make sure that

543
00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:42,400
the church didn't lose its tax
status.

544
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,800
That be why you didn't lose its
accreditation.

545
00:29:45,100 --> 00:29:47,200
That all those things didn't
happen and they're like, look,

546
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,300
this is going to happen with or
without you.

547
00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:51,800
So put something in In there
that buys us some time.

548
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,700
Right?
But but yeah, I mean in the long

549
00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:58,900
run with them dismantling Temple
ordinances having to do with,

550
00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:02,400
basically, with gender roles
having to do with the idea that

551
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,000
there's a difference between
male and female.

552
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:08,600
You know, the another one that
was a real shock to me is that I

553
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,600
think it was in 2019 as well.
But it might have been 2020 that

554
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,900
they change, the ceiling
ordinance mmm-hmm so that a

555
00:30:15,908 --> 00:30:19,800
woman no longer gives herself to
her husband and the husband no

556
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:25,600
longer Leaves her unto himself.
Once again changing this.

557
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,000
This balance of male and female
masculine and feminine yin and

558
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:35,700
yang, right or yin and yang as
it's actually pronounced, they

559
00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:40,000
they're doing away with all that
Doctrine already, right?

560
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,200
And if that Doctrine disappears,
why not having a temple

561
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:48,500
marriage?
If it's if If there's not going

562
00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:52,600
to be anything about gender in
the ordinance, if the ordinance

563
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,500
is going to become gender less
than why would it matter, right?

564
00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:58,900
You know, maybe, and maybe it
doesn't happen all at.

565
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:00,800
Once, may be one of the first
things they'll do is, they'll

566
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,300
say, you know what, husbands and
wives should just be able to sit

567
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:04,800
together anywhere.
They want in the endowment

568
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,600
rooms, maybe we're not going to
do the right hand as masculine

569
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,600
of the left hand is feminine
balance thing anymore, right?

570
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,000
You know, maybe they'll
introduce it in other subtle

571
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:20,700
ways but But little by little
it's it's kind of losing its

572
00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:23,700
character about teaching those
types of doctrines teaching.

573
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:27,400
Those kinds of ideas about how
families relate to each other

574
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,300
and once those doctrines are
gone, why not change it, right?

575
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:34,100
It wouldn't, it wouldn't really
be a change anymore, would it?

576
00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:40,300
Yeah, talk to me about this will
the church now be on the hook to

577
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:47,200
have like me to quote, as far as
having some, you know, enough.

578
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:54,900
Staff for lgbtq representation.
Oh you know if you're thinking

579
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:58,800
about like affirmative action
form of action type stuff, I

580
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,400
don't think so.
You don't think so it.

581
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,300
Well and maybe maybe at the
church schools and that's often

582
00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:05,800
where the stuff starts.
It wouldn't surprise me if

583
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,800
programs like that might not
start happening but generally,

584
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,800
those are generally, I think
that's was last year's battles,

585
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:15,800
you know.
That's one of the things that's

586
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,600
hard in any war strategy.
Is that you want to not be

587
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,600
fighting the last war you want
to be fighting the next War,

588
00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:21,900
right?
So that you're ready.

589
00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:24,600
I think that that kind of
affirmative action quotas and

590
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,000
stuff like that.
All the Fallout from that means

591
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,900
that it's probably not the major
strategy this time around.

592
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,800
Okay?
But you know it is already a big

593
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:40,400
deal at BYU at least having a
you know lgbtq clubs more

594
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,000
representation on campus things.
I've got a might not be a quota

595
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,000
but there's definitely
definitely push back on campus.

596
00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:49,100
Right?
And that's often, like I said,

597
00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:53,000
that's often where it starts.
So yeah, that really could be

598
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,800
one of the places that pressures
put on the church.

599
00:32:56,100 --> 00:33:00,500
And I think that another big
thing, could be possibly losing

600
00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:03,400
their accreditation and losing
their educational or nonprofit

601
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,200
status because their policy is
viewed as being discriminatory,

602
00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:11,300
right?
I have a good friend that I

603
00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:15,500
talked to quite frequently who
scam near fundamentalist, he's

604
00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:18,000
still in the LDS church but he's
Well, you can be a

605
00:33:18,008 --> 00:33:19,900
fundamentalist, will be the
mainstream LDS church, right?

606
00:33:19,900 --> 00:33:21,800
All that means is that you
believe in the fundamentals,

607
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:22,800
right?
Exactly.

608
00:33:23,700 --> 00:33:27,400
We have these conversations.
Quite frequently and he we agree

609
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,000
on a number of things.
And one of the things that that

610
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,700
we talked about was the fact
that this is in dribs and drabs,

611
00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:38,800
right?
And, and it's like, you were

612
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,000
saying is that, at some point,
the scale is tipped and you

613
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,600
never see it tipping.
You write see it too?

614
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:51,100
Kind of sneaks up on you now,
you know, I feel kind of, I feel

615
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:53,800
kind of upset really.
When I look at past Generations

616
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,300
that I'm like, well, they should
have known better, they knew

617
00:33:56,300 --> 00:33:59,100
about this stuff, why aren't
they speaking out?

618
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:02,800
I'll admit I've got, I've got
some negative feelings towards

619
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:07,700
members of the church in their
70s, because I see how much has

620
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:10,900
changed since the 1960s in the
church.

621
00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:15,600
And looking at the mass Sieve
overhaul, I would say

622
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,900
evisceration of the LDS
endowment ceremony.

623
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:28,300
Since that time, particularly in
78, the mid-80s 1990 2003 and

624
00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:31,400
it's like, look, I understand if
you only got your endowments in

625
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,100
2002 and you barely remember
that there's something different

626
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:37,300
in 2003 and then something else
changed in 2019, and it all just

627
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:39,199
feels fairly recent like not
that big of a deal.

628
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:45,300
But if you were endowed and the
early 1970s or 70s or even just

629
00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:52,100
prior 19 or even prior 1990.
It's so it's so much.

630
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:54,500
I mean we're not talking about
just small things.

631
00:34:54,500 --> 00:35:00,000
We're talking about losing huge
volumes of esoteric knowledge.

632
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,200
Symbolism covenants entire
explanations.

633
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,100
That make the the dialogue
itself.

634
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,300
Make more sense.
I mean, like right now even just

635
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:10,900
the dialogue is almost
nonsensical because it's so

636
00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:15,400
chopped up and and then I And so
I look at that and I think

637
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:19,100
we're, why is it that we've got
a bunch of people in their 70s,

638
00:35:19,100 --> 00:35:22,300
sitting in the temple is Temple
workers going along with this

639
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:24,300
stuff.
They are the ones who should

640
00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:26,500
have rioted.
Yeah, yeah.

641
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:30,800
And here's the thing, we know
that the church is mindful of

642
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,800
its membership in terms of how
they're feeling, let's just go

643
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,100
back, let's jump in the time
machine and let's go way way way

644
00:35:40,100 --> 00:35:44,200
back to like a year ago.
Okay, just one On your go.

645
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,100
Let's go back a year ago.
I know it's an ancient history

646
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:50,700
but one year the church comes
out and says, hey, we're

647
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:53,000
renovating all the old Pioneer
temples.

648
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,400
So Salt Lake is on that list
magnetized on the hood.

649
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,900
Now, Salt Lake was like, well,
whatever.

650
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,400
Okay, well, but the only sort of
right, okay.

651
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,800
I mean the one of the things
that I thought was interesting,

652
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,500
was, they came out with like a
hundred page book about exactly

653
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:12,000
what they were going to do to
restore the Salt Lake Temple and

654
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,300
exactly how they were going to.
Make sure that That everything

655
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:17,800
was preserved in its most
original way and all kinds of

656
00:36:17,808 --> 00:36:19,600
like they published.
And so, that's why I think

657
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,700
people are like, oh, it's fine
with Salt Lake because this is

658
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:26,000
going to be magnificent.
If you have kids around

659
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,200
earmuffs, I call bullshit and
I'll tell you why I call

660
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,200
bullshit because I worked on
that Temple during the

661
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,700
renovation.
And this is something I haven't

662
00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:38,700
ever shared on the podcast
before.

663
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:41,200
And I want to be very clear on
this.

664
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,800
I want to be so crystal clear
that nobody can can, can be

665
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:52,700
mistaken here.
This was not simply a renovation

666
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,500
to make things more.
More expedient.

667
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,900
Okay?
Also, there are to restore

668
00:36:57,900 --> 00:37:00,600
things to their original or
anything like that, right?

669
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,000
No.
Here's the other thing, that

670
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,800
hundred pages that you read has
since been superseded by the

671
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,700
first presidency three times,
they've thrown out the plan and

672
00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:13,600
change made a new plan.
Three times.

673
00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:17,900
The reason that that project is
so far behind and it is two

674
00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:21,300
years behind as of rice because
they keep changing their mind

675
00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:24,400
because they keep changing.
The, oh my gosh, what happened?

676
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:31,500
This is they feel like the and
this is classic maneuvering.

677
00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:34,900
They want to crank as many
people through that Temple as

678
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,500
possible will write.
Because one of the things I

679
00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:39,400
remember thinking was
interesting is that they're

680
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,900
putting in a second baptistry.
And I thought, then why do they

681
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:44,300
need two fonts?
I guess the idea is they want to

682
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,100
drive a lot of traffic to their
to their.

683
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:50,200
Yep.
Okay, so now they change before

684
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,500
you go e time before you get
into the details, though.

685
00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:55,700
I want to ask you.
Just to set some groundwork for

686
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:58,100
your listeners.
So I guess I'm the interviewer

687
00:37:58,100 --> 00:37:59,800
now.
Yeah, now, you get the current

688
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,200
Amy, tell me a little bit about
what you do for a living in that

689
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,500
how you got involved.
And what is it that you really

690
00:38:05,500 --> 00:38:06,800
know?
Because if they keep changing

691
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,300
the plan, most people have no
idea what's going on.

692
00:38:09,300 --> 00:38:12,400
I'm sure how is it?
How is it that?

693
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,600
You know, what's going on?
So I'm a land surveyor, okay.

694
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:23,600
Okay at the time, I was working
for a subcontractor that was

695
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,100
doing.
Some work on the temple.

696
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:27,400
Okay, right.
Because they have to know where

697
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,300
to lay things out today, getting
things held and things like

698
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:33,800
HVAC, and Plumbing in that sort
of stuff.

699
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:39,500
Okay, so I got to see the plans.
The actual plans, I got see the

700
00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:40,500
plans.
Wow.

701
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,600
And I started to see all the
stuff they had planned for it

702
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,500
and then the addendums would
come out.

703
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:51,500
So in my line of work, anytime,
there's an addendum, we call it

704
00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:53,800
a change order.
It comes in, shall we say?

705
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,000
Does this affect our overall
cost?

706
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,200
Most of the time as a surveyor
it doesn't.

707
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,300
You don't care, right?
It's normally pretty close to

708
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:04,500
the same amount of locations you
planned on staking.

709
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:07,300
Anyway, sure that they might be
changing as a plumbing but the

710
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,400
walls are still going to be
there, right?

711
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:09,400
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

712
00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:13,600
So we get those addendums well,
because I have a Mormon

713
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,300
background, I was very
interested to see what was in

714
00:39:16,300 --> 00:39:17,300
those.
Sure.

715
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,800
And so what I noticed first was
is that they're doing away with

716
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,900
live sessions, okay?
And for that's a big change,

717
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:29,800
that's a huge change, okay?
And and for anybody who's never

718
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,800
been through a live session in
Manti or Salt Lake, which I

719
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,700
believe we're the only two left
that are those were the only two

720
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:38,800
and they're closed.
Is now, so they're done.

721
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,000
There are no more live sessions,
I believe, man, times going to

722
00:39:41,008 --> 00:39:43,400
stay alive.
No, Manta is not going to be

723
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,800
reopened at this point.
The news was that in in lieu of

724
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,400
tearing it in lieu of more or
less demolishing, the interior

725
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,000
of the Manti temple, they're
building a new Temple any

726
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,800
further for modern purposes in
Ephraim and there are no plans

727
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,500
to reopen the man Thai temple
right now.

728
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:05,400
That is why I'll have to double
check on that because I have a

729
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,400
listener.
Very quiet on the name, who

730
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,400
might know, if you think you're
too, who thought that they were

731
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,600
going to reopen it and they were
just going to have an additional

732
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,400
one in Manti to accommodate in a
from yeah, even excuse me to

733
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,600
accommodate the the, the added
population.

734
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,200
So they'd have to Temples
Ephraim anti.

735
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,200
I could be wrong.
I'll double check on them, but

736
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,200
The first thing I noticed was
that the live sessions were

737
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,300
going away and for anyone who
hasn't been through Manti or

738
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:41,500
Salt Lake prior to its closing,
it was a slower ceremony because

739
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:44,800
there was a lot of movement you
would go into a creation room

740
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,100
and then you would talk about
the creation in that room.

741
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,300
Yep.
And then you would go into the

742
00:40:49,300 --> 00:40:54,100
the Garden Room and then you
would go up into the levels now

743
00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:58,000
they're getting rid of that, so
no longer will it be that way.

744
00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:00,900
Now you're going to have Think
of Provo right?

745
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:05,400
Where you have seven or eight,
quote instruction rooms, where

746
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:10,100
the video will be presented.
Now, by the way, I've got two

747
00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:13,800
things to say on that sorry to
stop you one, don't forget,

748
00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:17,400
Provo Temple is slated for
demolition, they're going to

749
00:41:17,408 --> 00:41:19,400
build an entirely different
temple on that Hill.

750
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,600
They're going to completely tear
down the old Provo Temple.

751
00:41:21,900 --> 00:41:24,400
So that's a shock to a lot of
people to though, fewer people

752
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,000
are attached to it because of
the 60s 70s, modernist

753
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,100
architecture that they used when
they because it looks like a

754
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:32,700
cupcake with a candle on it.
Yeah, right.

755
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,500
Yeah, but it's mostly like the
cloud and the pillar of fire.

756
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,900
But anyway, so there's some
people are attached to it and

757
00:41:38,908 --> 00:41:41,200
I'm sorry for them.
But I think there's not going to

758
00:41:41,207 --> 00:41:43,400
get much push back to
demolishing it because people

759
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,200
aren't as attached to it, right?
Some people are and I feel bad

760
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,800
for them.
But, but the other thing that I

761
00:41:48,808 --> 00:41:51,400
want to point out is that a live
session, right?

762
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,900
In Christchurch, we only do live
sessions.

763
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:57,300
There's no film.
And why is that?

764
00:41:57,300 --> 00:42:00,400
And I think having having
experienced as a temple worker,

765
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,900
both in the Church of, Jesus
Christ, Latter-Day Saints.

766
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:07,000
And in Christchurch, I think one
of the greatest contrast me.

767
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,300
Oh, by the way, I've done.
Obsessions in the mainstream LDS

768
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:14,800
church, as well as I was in
Manti and in Salt Lake.

769
00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:17,600
But I think that one of the
biggest differences is

770
00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:22,600
participation when you are part
of a participatory act.

771
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:27,400
When you are engaging with the
ritual, when you are walking

772
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:32,100
through the ritual, when you are
Adam or you are Eve, you

773
00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:35,100
internalize and you experience
something spiritual

774
00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:39,000
transformative powerful at a
much At level, it's very

775
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,000
visceral.
You're taking upon yourself

776
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,300
these covenants because you have
found yourself in the lone

777
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:47,100
injury world and you want to
know what it means to overcome

778
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:50,600
sin and death, and all of that,
through the power of Christ, you

779
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,300
want to know what it means to
come to the vale of God, and be

780
00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:59,200
called forth to hear the gavel.
The hammer strike.

781
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,200
This is the Judgment time and go
forth and actually participate

782
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,000
in that ritual.
It's such a powerful thing when

783
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,900
it's, when it's live.
So, And they come they call it

784
00:43:08,908 --> 00:43:11,200
now, but a film session, what's
that?

785
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,400
It's a movie.
Like I become a spectator, you

786
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,000
become a mere spectator.
Are you a spectator in your own

787
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,800
life?
Are you a spectator in your own

788
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,100
story, right?
I don't think that religion is

789
00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:24,000
very powerful if it's a
spectator sport.

790
00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:28,100
No, religion is participatory,
it's, it's something that you're

791
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:32,200
supposed to be doing because it
matters to you, right?

792
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,200
Not just because you're like,
oh, I don't know, leave it to

793
00:43:34,207 --> 00:43:36,500
the professionals, right, you
know.

794
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,000
And and so I Like, that's that
they were already, had lost

795
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,700
something.
So vital to the temple

796
00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:44,400
experience when they were, when
they moved, almost everything to

797
00:43:44,408 --> 00:43:45,600
these film sessions.
Anyway.

798
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,700
I even heard a joke.
There are like, you must be, you

799
00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:51,600
might be a Mormon if you think a
rerun movie in a cafeteria

800
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,300
meals, a good date, right?
I've heard that too.

801
00:43:54,300 --> 00:43:57,700
Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, they.

802
00:43:59,100 --> 00:44:00,600
So I'm gonna make this real
personal.

803
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:03,600
It's this is something I try
never to do on the podcast

804
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:07,300
because I don't necessarily want
to be about me, but I feel that

805
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:10,900
it is I always try not to make
it about me.

806
00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:15,300
I feel like it's super important
but I don't think I can do

807
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:20,100
justice to this without Making
it personal.

808
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,700
So we had to go into the temple
and set, what is called control,

809
00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:30,800
which is known geographical
locations, right?

810
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,400
On a Cartesian coordinate system
that you can come back to again

811
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,600
and again and again, right?
So you're setting up these

812
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:41,100
points so you know where the new
lines are going to be dry based

813
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:43,500
on where something is.
So we can set our equipment on

814
00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:48,200
that known Point have a basis of
bearing and then angular width

815
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:51,800
angles and distances layout
appropriate points, okay?

816
00:44:52,900 --> 00:45:02,200
When I was in there, I saw them
taking down the murals and I

817
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:09,400
knew what was coming and now by
this time I'm a fundamentalist

818
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,100
so I I didn't think it would be
as hard for me as what it was,

819
00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:15,800
right?
Because if the LDS church is

820
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,400
already not doing it by the same
Authority, or if they're not

821
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,600
doing the same ceremony, maybe
it's not right?

822
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,400
I didn't, I didn't think I would
have the visceral response I

823
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,000
had.
But I'm going to admit a few

824
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,700
more things here.
This is a temple that I went to

825
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:35,900
shortly after I was in doubt, me
and my wife because I wanted to

826
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:38,200
experience it.
And what I will tell you is that

827
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,600
there was a residue that was
left over despite the church's

828
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,600
best efforts to get rid of
anything.

829
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,300
Adam, God, plural, marriage,
whatever.

830
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:48,700
I didn't know what it was but
there was a residue left over in

831
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:52,000
that Temple.
Sure, Michaels generations of

832
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,800
fullness, loving polygamous
families that were sealed in

833
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,200
that time.
Yes, you could feel it was

834
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,200
palpable.
Now this is going to make the

835
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,400
LDS church cringe and I I
apologize.

836
00:46:02,700 --> 00:46:05,400
But I also when I look Pearl,
plural marriage.

837
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,400
The first time and we didn't
know where to go.

838
00:46:07,700 --> 00:46:10,800
I took both of my wife's through
that Temple.

839
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:15,300
She had very spiritual
experiences in that Temple.

840
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,200
As I sat there and watched the
renovation happen.

841
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,300
When you say renovation, I
wouldn't say renovation what

842
00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:26,600
happened there, the D
consecration of that Temple.

843
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:32,500
Not just D consecration.
The abomination of desolation,

844
00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:34,200
and I don't use that term
lightly.

845
00:46:36,300 --> 00:46:40,300
I wept.
And I had to find a place,

846
00:46:40,300 --> 00:46:42,200
because you don't want other
construction workers, seeing

847
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,300
that you're crying.
That's, that's yeah, that's no

848
00:46:44,300 --> 00:46:46,400
go.
But I just sat and watched from

849
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:51,500
afar.
And I wept because I knew that

850
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:56,200
it wasn't coming back.
And I knew that they were trying

851
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,900
so desperately to get away from
anything.

852
00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:04,300
That was Pioneer era anything
that spoke to the miraculous

853
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:12,300
about Mormonism, anything that
had to do with anything anything

854
00:47:12,300 --> 00:47:15,800
that made the gospel unique as
opposed to any other Protestant

855
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,200
religion and I'm not slamming
Protestant religion.

856
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,700
But it was unique and I wept,
and I begged, God, why am I

857
00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:26,400
here?
I felt guilty for being there

858
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,400
and being a part of that.
And in that prayer, I remember I

859
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:38,100
got a very solid answer and it
was a very clear answer, one was

860
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,100
take comfort.
It's okay.

861
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,400
I understand, I know what's
happening.

862
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:47,800
Two.
You have to bear witness.

863
00:47:48,700 --> 00:47:52,500
You have to understand what
they're doing and you have to

864
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:55,300
shoulder that load.
And when the time is right, you

865
00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:57,300
have to tell people what is
happening.

866
00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:05,600
Apparently, that's tonight.
Make no doubt, make no

867
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,900
misunderstanding about this.
This is a cataclysmic, sea

868
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:14,200
change for the LDS church.
If you look at what they're

869
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,400
doing, not just to the Salt Lake
Temple.

870
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,700
But to every subsequent Temple
that's being built, they are

871
00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:24,200
doing things which may not
necessarily be doctrinally

872
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,200
wrong, but But they're
important.

873
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,300
And let me explain, it's going
to seem silly on the surface,

874
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,800
but if you look at all the new
temples are being built, orm

875
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,200
right down the road from me,
there won't be an angel Moroni

876
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,500
on that Temple.
Right there won't be on any new

877
00:48:42,500 --> 00:48:44,000
Temple.
Why?

878
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:49,300
Because they're trying to get
away from anything having to do

879
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:55,800
with Miracles and visitations?
If you learn anything that makes

880
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,700
Mormonism distinct that makes
Mormonism distinct.

881
00:48:58,900 --> 00:49:02,400
I've talked to a good buddy
who's a devout LDS guy and I

882
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,700
love him and I respect him.
But I've made this point to him

883
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:10,600
before and I've said this on the
podcast, this is the new Coke of

884
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,200
Mormonism.
You are now getting a new

885
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,000
formula and it's going to taste
so bad.

886
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:16,900
You're going to want to lick
your own.

887
00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:18,700
My armpit to get the taste out
of your mouth.

888
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,500
But it's funny when you put it
that way, it's the truth.

889
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,100
It's absolutely the truth.
When this is all over, and

890
00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:28,500
again, this is in the slam on
protestantism.

891
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,900
We will be another Protestant
church with really fancy

892
00:49:31,900 --> 00:49:34,200
buildings.
Now, that's it.

893
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,300
Now, here's the question, I
have.

894
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,800
And I'm sorry to have to ask,
but what are they doing to the

895
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,500
Salt Lake Temple?
They are taking out all the

896
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:48,800
historical murals, those murals
have been there.

897
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,800
Other just paint them over or
no, they are removing them.

898
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,100
They're changing walls.
They are changing the inside

899
00:49:56,100 --> 00:49:59,100
layout.
So I mean, like, the creation

900
00:49:59,100 --> 00:50:01,000
room isn't a negotiation room
anymore.

901
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,200
The Garden Room gone, the
celestial room that will still

902
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,600
remain but it's going to be
modernized. think of any other,

903
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:15,500
it'll still maintain its mostly
its shape, but it would be It

904
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:21,500
will be somewhat different
because they're going to if so

905
00:50:21,500 --> 00:50:24,500
and then only be available on
the one side like there is now

906
00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:27,500
no I think was I think I think
they're moving the celestial

907
00:50:27,500 --> 00:50:30,500
room but they're trying to like
keep the stairs and stuff.

908
00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:32,400
That's the last Incarnation I
saw.

909
00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:35,200
This could all be outdated
information to keep that in

910
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:35,900
mind.
Right?

911
00:50:35,900 --> 00:50:37,700
What they're going to like move
the stairs.

912
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:39,800
Yeah, they were going to move
the stairs.

913
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,800
They're trying to keep as much
Pioneer would work, but the

914
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,300
murals are gone.
It's completely different.

915
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,700
And so what you're going to have
again, I'm going back to Provo

916
00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:55,500
think of Provo where you have
seven to eight and I like that

917
00:50:55,500 --> 00:50:58,000
number could be wrong but a
bunch of bunch of individual

918
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,100
small instruction rooms.
Yeah, I'm kind that will then

919
00:51:00,100 --> 00:51:02,300
funnel into the celestial of
celestial.

920
00:51:02,300 --> 00:51:04,700
Exactly.
Now is the Salt Lake Temple sits

921
00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:07,100
the same with Manti, it used to
be this way in St.

922
00:51:07,100 --> 00:51:11,000
George you used to have the
ceiling rooms that were just off

923
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,400
to the side of the celestial
room, right?

924
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,800
And that was done intentionally.
Lee because they were showing

925
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,100
how important Celestial marriage
was right.

926
00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:24,100
And that it's in that, it's in
that it's essentially, it's

927
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:25,600
because it's the order of God's
family.

928
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,400
This patriarchal Celestial
plural, marriage, this

929
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,400
patriarchal marriage, this
Celestial order of marriage, the

930
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,200
new and Everlasting Covenant,
all that stuff, right?

931
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,800
They were trying to say, look,
this is part of the celestial

932
00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:38,200
law.
Yes.

933
00:51:38,500 --> 00:51:42,000
Yep.
Those won't spill out any longer

934
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:48,200
into the celestial room.
Here's a tough one and any word

935
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,800
on the holy of holies that's
next to the semester.

936
00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:54,900
So as far as I know, it was
gutted.

937
00:51:55,900 --> 00:51:59,300
Oh my gosh.
And again, this could be wrong

938
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,400
because keep in mind, the reason
that they're behind schedule, as

939
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,900
they keep changing the plans.
They keep getting into things in

940
00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:08,400
like well let's do this.
The one thing I'm going to give

941
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:13,000
her eye but if you rip the walls
out of the holy of holies, it's

942
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,500
not a room anymore, right,
right.

943
00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:18,300
It's not the holy of holies him.
I would dare to say that they'll

944
00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:21,500
put in a new one, but what it
is, I have no idea and what

945
00:52:21,500 --> 00:52:23,700
they'll use it for right now.
And then again, who knows what

946
00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:25,100
they've been using it for a long
time.

947
00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:27,000
I right?
I thought it was interesting

948
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:33,000
1945 Richards.
I think it was was concerned

949
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,500
because they'd stopped doing All
of the second endowments that

950
00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:39,900
stop doing all of that and he
wanted to keep that revived.

951
00:52:39,900 --> 00:52:43,200
And so they did that for a bunch
of general authorities 1945 and

952
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,800
then it wasn't until the 80s
that they were like, oh my

953
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,300
goodness, there's only like five
or six people left to even know

954
00:52:48,300 --> 00:52:50,600
what it is.
Should we do that for a few more

955
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:55,100
people?
And, you know, and that's when

956
00:52:55,200 --> 00:53:00,700
essentially, now you have a
culture of some of the Apostles

957
00:53:00,700 --> 00:53:03,300
of really wanted, had tried to
bring that back, so they'll use

958
00:53:03,300 --> 00:53:07,800
us The the have a closet
sometimes in one of the ceiling

959
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,900
rooms with, I'll have some wash
basin to, for the washing of

960
00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:13,100
feet and a few things like that
set aside.

961
00:53:13,100 --> 00:53:16,000
But I mean, it's clearly not
something that the regular

962
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,100
membership is even aware of, or
as access to but it's like

963
00:53:20,700 --> 00:53:23,100
something the general
authorities will try to practice

964
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:26,100
now again, but it's still
different.

965
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,300
It's still so changed, just like
the other ordinances.

966
00:53:28,300 --> 00:53:31,100
And that's such a long Gap.
They basically completely forgot

967
00:53:31,100 --> 00:53:33,300
how to do it, right?
Well, this church and the other

968
00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:37,100
thing is, is that It's not like
that ordinance in the LDS church

969
00:53:37,100 --> 00:53:39,700
is available to the both
membership of the church.

970
00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:42,500
No, no, you've got a, you've got
to be a general Authority or no

971
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:44,700
General Authority.
Basically, or, you know, or know

972
00:53:44,700 --> 00:53:46,700
someone who knows a general
Authority and then they kind of

973
00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:48,800
pass it around like it's a favor
or something.

974
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,800
Exactly.
So, they're there now, very much

975
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,000
is a level of aristocracy
already built into that.

976
00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:01,000
Sure, but when you go back into
the Salt Lake Temple, it will

977
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,400
not be anything that you, you
remember.

978
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:10,400
At all and as of late, I think
you can still find it.

979
00:54:10,900 --> 00:54:13,100
The church is even put out
rendering so what's going to

980
00:54:13,107 --> 00:54:17,200
look like on the inside now?
Oh really and it's not what you

981
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,300
remember what so ever.
You know I'm reminded of another

982
00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:25,400
miracle that happens there.
There was a time when Lorenzo

983
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:33,600
Snow saw, Jesus Christ.
And if you know where the as you

984
00:54:33,607 --> 00:54:36,900
come out of Of the celestial
room or as you're approaching

985
00:54:36,900 --> 00:54:39,900
the celestial room from say,
when you go up the stairs from

986
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:47,200
the Garden Room into the
terrestrial room, you will out

987
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,400
of the or where the Luna jury
World room.

988
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,100
And the terrestrial room are,
there's kind of a hallway and

989
00:54:54,100 --> 00:54:58,300
the staircase and that connects
to the smush room.

990
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,000
Lorenzo Snow saw Christ there.
And I remember that being a

991
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,400
really powerful Vision to read
about, right?

992
00:55:04,500 --> 00:55:08,200
Um, and it makes me wonder if
they tore out the place where

993
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,100
Christ himself stood problem
with.

994
00:55:12,100 --> 00:55:16,400
And it to me, that just seems.
I mean, it's worse than

995
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,200
blasphemy.
I mean, what would you do?

996
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,500
If someone said, oh, let's
strike the Temple.

997
00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:26,700
Mount let's-let's-let's,
bulldoze the garden tomb.

998
00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:33,800
Let's let's pave over Bethlehem,
it's like, It's like that song.

999
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,700
You know, I walk today where
Jesus walked and felt this

1000
00:55:36,700 --> 00:55:41,700
presence there.
I believe that the presence of

1001
00:55:41,700 --> 00:55:47,800
God has a sanctifying power.
When you touch a leper, you

1002
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:52,000
become unclean but Jesus, it's
the other way around when Jesus

1003
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,000
touches a leper.
Jesus doesn't become unclean.

1004
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,200
The leopard becomes clean,
right?

1005
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:57,700
Right.
And I feel like, that's the way

1006
00:55:57,700 --> 00:56:02,200
it is this mortal world, we're
all subject to this tea.

1007
00:56:02,300 --> 00:56:03,100
Less chill.
World.

1008
00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:05,100
We live.
We die.

1009
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,700
We suffer sickness and old age
slowly.

1010
00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:12,300
Creep up on us.
But God's the opposite, when God

1011
00:56:12,300 --> 00:56:16,600
somewhere, it becomes better.
What doesn't age?

1012
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,100
No heads in the other direction,
it becomes holy, it becomes

1013
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:24,700
Sanctified, the idea that you
would take something as sacred

1014
00:56:24,700 --> 00:56:28,400
as the ground, the sacred ground
upon which Christ himself has

1015
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,200
stood.
And treat it like garbage and

1016
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:35,100
throw it away and that that
seems to be what is happening.

1017
00:56:35,100 --> 00:56:39,400
I was trying to look up these
these renovation changes now and

1018
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,900
I'm having a hard time bringing
them up but I tell you what when

1019
00:56:43,900 --> 00:56:48,000
they open that up I'm tempted
first of all kind of want to see

1020
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:52,500
for myself but if I see what it
sounds to me, like you're

1021
00:56:52,500 --> 00:56:54,900
saying, we're going to see if we
go to that Temple open house

1022
00:56:55,700 --> 00:56:58,900
when the time comes.
It's can be heartbreaking.

1023
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,600
Yeah, yeah, and if it's
heartbreaking to that extent,

1024
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,100
how on Earth are they can even
hold an open house, you know

1025
00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:08,100
what I mean?
I, I'd be tempted to just weep

1026
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:12,500
in line and I'd be tempted to
just lash out, maybe, you know,

1027
00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:14,200
I mean, I'd want to, I want to
pick it.

1028
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,400
There's something to be, like,
look what you have done.

1029
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,800
Yeah, this is how bad it is
been.

1030
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,500
Is that I know that there were
people who weren't even Mormon,

1031
00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:26,700
you were appalled at the
disrespect and the fact that

1032
00:57:26,700 --> 00:57:29,500
they would do it it.
So, and again, I want to make

1033
00:57:29,500 --> 00:57:33,600
perfectly clear that these plans
are subject to change because

1034
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,200
they've been changed three times
a day.

1035
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,300
Well, it seems to me, like
that's not good news.

1036
00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:40,600
That sounds like bad news.
It means that, well, they get

1037
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,300
worse and worse.
That's true.

1038
00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:44,400
Could be fair.
They could, they could say, you

1039
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,500
know what, this isn't going the
way we want, you know, maybe,

1040
00:57:47,500 --> 00:57:50,500
maybe rent it back a little bit
and run it back a little bit,

1041
00:57:50,500 --> 00:57:52,300
right?
I'll have to continue to look

1042
00:57:52,300 --> 00:57:55,000
but I'll see if I can't find
some, some renderings of what

1043
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,300
that's supposed to look like.
But But make no doubt about it.

1044
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:03,700
This is a sea change.
This is, this is one of those

1045
00:58:03,700 --> 00:58:07,700
cataclysmic more moments in
Mormon history, where you

1046
00:58:07,700 --> 00:58:09,600
understand that the church is
changing.

1047
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,900
Its identity.
Yeah, and and that's going to

1048
00:58:13,900 --> 00:58:18,100
continue I fear until until it's
not there.

1049
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,400
But let's go back to what we
were just talking about with the

1050
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,500
Defense of Marriage Act, Right?
Or the respect for Marriage Act,

1051
00:58:26,500 --> 00:58:31,900
excuse me, is that They know a
sea change is coming whether

1052
00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:34,300
they want it or not.
Right, right.

1053
00:58:34,300 --> 00:58:36,600
Yeah, absolutely.
That's the only reason why I

1054
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,500
think the church would step out
and say we're going to support

1055
00:58:39,500 --> 00:58:41,000
this so long.
As you do the Amendments we

1056
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,400
want.
So I think they already know

1057
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:48,000
that cataclysmic changes coming
and I think they feel like we

1058
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,000
either get to at least guided a
little bit.

1059
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:52,800
At least we get to have a voice,
right?

1060
00:58:52,900 --> 00:58:58,900
Or or we get our 501 c 3 status
ripped away and unfortunately

1061
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:02,900
and And again, I apologize to
anyone out there who's LDS

1062
00:59:02,900 --> 00:59:04,900
because I know this is hard to
hear.

1063
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:09,300
You're talking to a guy who had
two wives and still tried to

1064
00:59:09,300 --> 00:59:12,100
make the LDS church work because
I couldn't find someone else to

1065
00:59:12,100 --> 00:59:14,400
go.
Well, because we love the

1066
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,500
church, right?
This is our people, right?

1067
00:59:16,500 --> 00:59:20,900
I did the mental gym.
Dude, if mental gymnastics was a

1068
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:25,600
Olympic sport, either taking
gold in those years, I was good

1069
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:30,400
at it, okay?
So I know this is hard to hear

1070
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,800
but the truth is is that it's
not what you remember even 20

1071
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,600
years ago I came into the LDS
church in 1995.

1072
00:59:39,500 --> 00:59:44,300
Okay, so in 2015, I can promise
you.

1073
00:59:44,300 --> 00:59:50,100
It looks nothing like what it
did in 1995 well and in 1995

1074
00:59:50,100 --> 00:59:54,400
didn't look much like 1970 1970.
Didn't look much like 1870.

1075
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,300
Let me tell you and at least not
doctrinally and This is where it

1076
00:59:58,300 --> 01:00:01,300
comes back on on us as members
right now.

1077
01:00:01,308 --> 01:00:04,400
I say something, you know, I
think all of us are in that

1078
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,100
more.
All we're all a bunch of

1079
01:00:06,100 --> 01:00:07,700
Mormons, you know.
I know that like the Community

1080
01:00:07,700 --> 01:00:10,400
of Christ doesn't use the term
Mormon and a few of these other

1081
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:12,300
Eastern dirt.
Don't use the term Mormon.

1082
01:00:12,700 --> 01:00:16,300
We're all Mormons, everybody
who's has anything to do with

1083
01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:18,400
the LDS movement, anybody who's
ever heard of The Book of

1084
01:00:18,408 --> 01:00:20,300
Mormon?
There, they're Mormons, right?

1085
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:26,600
But we we tend to be surprised
when this happens.

1086
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,000
And yeah, the The truth is.
We shouldn't be anymore.

1087
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,800
We shouldn't be.
We should look at this and see

1088
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:33,700
this coming.
We should.

1089
01:00:33,700 --> 01:00:38,900
Yeah.
But this is totally totally a A

1090
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,300
Car Blanc, right?
I mean predictable, it's

1091
01:00:42,300 --> 01:00:44,700
predictable we know exactly
where it's going.

1092
01:00:44,700 --> 01:00:46,200
We know exactly where it's
heading.

1093
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,300
We just don't want to see it.
We just don't want to talk

1094
01:00:49,300 --> 01:00:51,600
about.
Because if we do, we are forced

1095
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,700
to ask very uncomfortable,
questions and questions.

1096
01:00:54,700 --> 01:00:57,800
We don't want to contend with.
Let me give you an example.

1097
01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:01,600
There's only one man.
I know of for sure who figured

1098
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,700
out, I was living plural
marriage at one point while

1099
01:01:03,700 --> 01:01:07,900
going to the LDS church and he
was an older guy and he walked

1100
01:01:07,900 --> 01:01:11,700
in He said I was I was in the
can taking a leak of all places.

1101
01:01:12,100 --> 01:01:15,200
Sure.
And he walked in and he said, I

1102
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:19,400
know what you're doing.
That was like, yeah, I'm taking

1103
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:21,800
a leak.
You know what I'm doing in the

1104
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,900
church bathroom, right?
He goes, no, no, he's like,

1105
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,300
don't be coy with me, son.
I know what you're doing.

1106
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:33,700
And I said, okay.
And I was like We can go to the

1107
01:01:33,700 --> 01:01:37,300
Bishops office right now.
And he says, I don't want to go

1108
01:01:37,300 --> 01:01:42,000
to the Bishops office.
I said why not and he said,

1109
01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:45,700
because you're an Elders Quorum
president who's getting a ton of

1110
01:01:45,700 --> 01:01:50,400
results and I feel the spirit
when you teach and if you're

1111
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,500
doing this and I feel the spirit
when you teach and you have a

1112
01:01:53,500 --> 01:01:57,400
good spirit about you, which I
feel I'm forced to ask some very

1113
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,700
uncomfortable questions that I
don't want to ask.

1114
01:02:01,500 --> 01:02:05,600
Right and I think we're there in
the same thing collectively,

1115
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:09,200
right?
Hmm we're maybe maybe you have

1116
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:17,300
to say well wait a second maybe
it's not that God is wrong or

1117
01:02:17,300 --> 01:02:19,600
that God changed his mind.
It's that the church just

1118
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,700
changed without God.
Yes.

1119
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:25,700
And that's a very uncomfortable
place to be, I mean look I

1120
01:02:25,700 --> 01:02:27,600
obviously made it work for a
number of years.

1121
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,800
I'm sure other people have done
for quite a while if they're not

1122
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,500
in Diary.
Our circumstances such as I was,

1123
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:39,000
but, but make no account.
May I mean make no, no, no

1124
01:02:39,900 --> 01:02:44,100
mistake about it.
There's a reckoning that has to

1125
01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:45,100
be had.
Yeah.

1126
01:02:45,100 --> 01:02:47,900
In this life or the next, you
know, and I have to say it is

1127
01:02:47,900 --> 01:02:50,300
hard to live a double life, so
to speak.

1128
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,500
I was a, I was a seminary
teacher.

1129
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:58,300
I was a CES teacher for the
church and 270 in Christchurch

1130
01:02:58,300 --> 01:03:04,000
for a while a long, but a little
while And, you know, I was so I

1131
01:03:04,008 --> 01:03:07,500
was in both and I'm sure that
the church, that's why the

1132
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:10,500
church came down on me later was
that they were upset about that

1133
01:03:10,500 --> 01:03:12,200
overlap.
I'm sure because they were

1134
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,300
concerned about what maybe I was
teaching the students.

1135
01:03:14,300 --> 01:03:16,800
Of course, I was still teaching
the curriculum right.

1136
01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:19,700
The curriculum was mostly good,
at least at the time.

1137
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,900
I'll admit I'm not so happy
about doctrinal master instead

1138
01:03:22,900 --> 01:03:25,200
of Scripture Mastery, I think.
So, sequential scripture

1139
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:29,100
teaching was our motto at CES
for decades and the whole idea

1140
01:03:29,100 --> 01:03:31,500
was to teach people the
scriptures, Hours.

1141
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,100
So they could really know the
scripture and now they've

1142
01:03:34,100 --> 01:03:35,500
searched all the doctrinal
Mastery.

1143
01:03:35,500 --> 01:03:38,500
And, and basically, it's just
all watered down now, doctrines

1144
01:03:38,500 --> 01:03:41,900
easier to change doctrines, easy
to change, you can cherry pick

1145
01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:44,000
whatever you want and then the
kids don't really learn the

1146
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:47,200
scriptures, but at least at the
time, the curriculum wasn't bad.

1147
01:03:48,300 --> 01:03:51,400
I spent a lot of, you know, so I
really didn't actually go

1148
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:53,500
outside the curriculum.
Even when I was in both

1149
01:03:53,500 --> 01:03:56,400
churches, but it still, it was
such a weight on me.

1150
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:58,100
Yeah, you know, I mean, it's
really hard.

1151
01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:01,100
If you feel like you can't fully
Express who you are, you can

1152
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:04,400
Only tell people you can be
like, well, I can tell you this,

1153
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,300
but I can't tell you that you
have to kind of

1154
01:04:06,300 --> 01:04:09,300
compartmentalize.
It's a type of stress nobody

1155
01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:11,100
needs in their life.
People should be who they are.

1156
01:04:11,100 --> 01:04:14,000
And I guess this is what
ironically, this is kind of why

1157
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:18,300
I was saying, aye, I'm trying to
be a good lgbtq a lie sometimes

1158
01:04:18,300 --> 01:04:22,400
because nobody should have to
live a double life, not being

1159
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:24,300
who they are.
Sometimes you just got to

1160
01:04:24,300 --> 01:04:26,900
embrace.
If this is what you've chosen or

1161
01:04:26,900 --> 01:04:30,600
if this is what you are doing,
or if this is what you are, you

1162
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:34,200
just have to yourself.
It's it'll kill you to try to

1163
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:39,700
lie about it and pretend one
thing but actually do another,

1164
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:43,400
you know, and here's the thing I
think, and this is where I'm

1165
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,100
willing to meet people halfway,
so to speak, right?

1166
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,900
I don't, I don't have look, I
had gay neighbors for a long

1167
01:04:49,900 --> 01:04:51,200
time.
Great.

1168
01:04:51,300 --> 01:04:53,200
They were good.
They were fine people.

1169
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:55,600
I never have an issue, you know.
Yeah.

1170
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:57,600
They live two different
Lifestyles and I could.

1171
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:01,500
But you know what?
We can hug, it can be neighbors,

1172
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:05,000
just not on Sundays that sort of
thing, right?

1173
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,300
Where were you?
Like look, here's the deal, man.

1174
01:05:07,300 --> 01:05:11,300
I'm willing to stand up for your
rights.

1175
01:05:11,500 --> 01:05:12,400
Right?
Right, right.

1176
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,700
That's an important thing.
I will be there with you.

1177
01:05:14,700 --> 01:05:19,300
If, if you know, someone is
trampling your rights, I will

1178
01:05:19,300 --> 01:05:21,900
stand for your rights because
they're coming for you right

1179
01:05:21,900 --> 01:05:24,100
now, but maybe someday they're
going to come for me.

1180
01:05:24,100 --> 01:05:27,700
Well, and that's the thing about
rights and you know that people

1181
01:05:27,700 --> 01:05:31,000
often get people off.
Don't understand is that rights

1182
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,200
are only there to protect you
when you're wrong.

1183
01:05:33,500 --> 01:05:35,700
They're not there to protect you
when you're when everyone agrees

1184
01:05:35,700 --> 01:05:38,700
with you rights are only there
to protect the minority.

1185
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:41,500
The majority doesn't need the
protection, right?

1186
01:05:41,500 --> 01:05:46,600
The reason why rights exist is
to say you are allowed to do

1187
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,500
whatever you want even when
you're wrong to, do whatever you

1188
01:05:49,500 --> 01:05:52,500
want, or say, whatever you want,
even when I disagree with it,

1189
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,300
even when I find it disgusting,
even when I hate it, even when I

1190
01:05:56,300 --> 01:05:59,700
think that you're being
self-destructive, You have the

1191
01:05:59,700 --> 01:06:02,400
right to do it, and that's what
rights are all about.

1192
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:07,800
Every one of the Bill of Rights
is made to protect minority,

1193
01:06:07,900 --> 01:06:13,100
dissenting often wrong voices
and actions and ideas.

1194
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:17,400
That's what it's there for.
I've often said, I've often

1195
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:19,000
heard it said and I agree with
it.

1196
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:22,500
Totally the, the speech that
needs protecting the most is the

1197
01:06:22,508 --> 01:06:26,300
speech.
You can can't even stand, right?

1198
01:06:26,300 --> 01:06:28,600
Because if it was something you
agreed with, it doesn't need

1199
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:31,100
protection.
It's the reason why would the

1200
01:06:31,100 --> 01:06:34,600
first amendment protects speech
is to protect speech that you

1201
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:41,000
think is awful right speech.
So bad, you would try to stop

1202
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,100
them and then the first
amendment is there to step in

1203
01:06:43,100 --> 01:06:45,300
and say, guess what?
No, you can't stop them.

1204
01:06:45,300 --> 01:06:47,500
They can say whatever they want,
no matter how offensive you

1205
01:06:47,500 --> 01:06:49,100
think it is, right?
That's what the first

1206
01:06:49,100 --> 01:06:52,400
amendment's for, right?
And and, and I viewed the these,

1207
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:56,200
these set of circumstances the
same way.

1208
01:06:56,300 --> 01:07:01,600
Absolutely, I don't want anyone
for Forced to go to the church.

1209
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:04,500
I attend.
I don't either.

1210
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,900
I mean, it's poisonous to both
church and state.

1211
01:07:07,900 --> 01:07:10,700
Yes to mix the two you really
cannot go to.

1212
01:07:10,700 --> 01:07:17,200
I don't want anyone forced to
bow to bow to a standard that

1213
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:19,100
they're uncomfortable, bowing
to.

1214
01:07:19,300 --> 01:07:21,000
It's not my place.
Mmm.

1215
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:27,800
But the other side seems to be
or at least the vocal size side

1216
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:30,900
of that argument seems to be
okay with this idea of will drag

1217
01:07:30,900 --> 01:07:33,800
you to the standard.
You're going to Bow the knee,

1218
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:37,400
right?
Well that's kind of the that's

1219
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:42,000
the tension between you know
authoritarianism and freedom.

1220
01:07:42,500 --> 01:07:46,800
It's always existed and a lot of
times when people think they're

1221
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:53,000
right, They think everybody else
has to Bow the knee and accept

1222
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,800
that they are right.
You don't want that dissent.

1223
01:07:56,300 --> 01:08:00,000
And it's a very dangerous game
when that gets started and I

1224
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,400
feel like, that's the way it's
been with a lot of things.

1225
01:08:02,700 --> 01:08:05,800
You know, this respect for
marriage act, one of the things

1226
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:09,800
it does, is it actually also,
says, interracial marriage.

1227
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:11,500
It doesn't just mention gay
marriage.

1228
01:08:11,500 --> 01:08:14,100
It also mentions interracial
marriage is being something that

1229
01:08:14,300 --> 01:08:16,800
states cannot prohibit that are
fully recognized by the federal

1230
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,700
government and that the Federal
Government is saying that the

1231
01:08:18,707 --> 01:08:22,600
states have to recognize each
other's acts on that regard and

1232
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:25,200
you know really wasn't even that
many years before that that

1233
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:29,100
loving V Virginia was the case
that said interracial marriage

1234
01:08:29,100 --> 01:08:39,000
can be, it cannot be outlawed.
So you know those those rights

1235
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:43,500
though doesn't mean it's for you
right?

1236
01:08:43,899 --> 01:08:46,300
And and this is this is a
compromise that I think we all

1237
01:08:46,300 --> 01:08:51,200
need to be okay with is it's
like So long as gay marriage is

1238
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:53,600
for gay people.
You know, they say, if you don't

1239
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:55,800
like gay marriage, don't have
one, right?

1240
01:08:55,899 --> 01:08:57,899
If you don't like gay marriage,
don't get, don't get gay

1241
01:08:57,899 --> 01:08:59,600
married, right?
You're right.

1242
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,000
But let other people do whatever
they want, and I fully support

1243
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:06,600
that reasoning.
The thing that really does worry

1244
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:08,700
me, and, of course, is causing
sleepless nights of current.

1245
01:09:08,700 --> 01:09:14,100
McConkey is what happens.
If they say any institution that

1246
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:18,200
prohibits those marriages is
going to lose their tax status.

1247
01:09:18,500 --> 01:09:21,100
You know, me me and that same
guy I told you about who's a

1248
01:09:21,108 --> 01:09:24,500
devout member of the LDS church,
we've had the conversation that

1249
01:09:24,500 --> 01:09:27,600
probably what should have
happened was a circling of the

1250
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,399
wagons right?
And understanding of hey we're

1251
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:33,399
going to lose this 501.
C 3 status understand.

1252
01:09:33,399 --> 01:09:36,800
We're going to have to go back
to the days of budget

1253
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:39,700
assessment.
We're going to have to go back

1254
01:09:39,700 --> 01:09:42,300
to where we all pitched in a
little bit more, but will

1255
01:09:42,300 --> 01:09:45,800
preserve the truth.
Will preserve the truth as we

1256
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:52,700
understand it and Instead what
was done was what we see, how do

1257
01:09:52,700 --> 01:09:55,000
I guess it depends on who you
got is right.

1258
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:57,200
Is your god.
The type of God that is

1259
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:01,600
comfortable, being being a
renegade being outside, the

1260
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,900
norm, is your god, the type of
God, who stands for the truth,

1261
01:10:04,900 --> 01:10:08,500
no matter what never changes or
is your god, the dollar Franc,

1262
01:10:08,500 --> 01:10:10,500
right?
You know, and and I tell you

1263
01:10:10,500 --> 01:10:15,900
what, the church, if the church
were to try to say, you know,

1264
01:10:15,900 --> 01:10:18,000
what does it matter will give a
protect status.

1265
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:19,900
We're going.
To stand with send on principle

1266
01:10:19,900 --> 01:10:25,600
in some way against that boy.
Howdy have they are they not set

1267
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:29,800
up well for that right now.
So back in the 1880s, right?

1268
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:32,700
When the church was having all
of its property confiscated by

1269
01:10:32,700 --> 01:10:36,200
the feds over the plural
marriage as you Stucker?

1270
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:39,500
Yeah.
You know they the church was

1271
01:10:39,500 --> 01:10:42,600
there at that time saying, okay,
I guess we'll have to divest

1272
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,200
ourselves of a lot of things,
you know, we'll just have to

1273
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:48,000
keep a few core things, like the
temples.

1274
01:10:48,300 --> 01:10:52,000
And then Wilfred Woodruff was
told, oh no, no, no, the temples

1275
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:55,400
is what we're coming for first.
We're going to take everything,

1276
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:57,900
you know and that's what got
Wilford Woodruff.

1277
01:10:57,900 --> 01:10:59,800
Just so terrified.
He's like you're not going to

1278
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:01,800
leave us a scrap.
You're not gonna leave us

1279
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:03,100
anything.
We're not going to give us even

1280
01:11:03,100 --> 01:11:05,600
our most sacred sites.
We can't even worship at all.

1281
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:09,200
And those Marshals like heck,
no, you're not going to have a.

1282
01:11:09,500 --> 01:11:11,800
Not going to have a single spot
on earth.

1283
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:14,000
You're allowed to stand.
We're going to take everything.

1284
01:11:16,300 --> 01:11:18,700
You know, the tried to circle
the wagons a bit at that time,

1285
01:11:18,700 --> 01:11:20,800
right.
And that's what the Mormon

1286
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:22,600
underground was.
All about a whole network of

1287
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:25,800
people, just trying to get by
and live their lives and escape

1288
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:30,300
the persecution, but the church
is done.

1289
01:11:30,300 --> 01:11:33,800
Exactly the opposite sense.
They've invested, especially

1290
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:36,800
since Heber, J Grant.
They have invested massively

1291
01:11:36,900 --> 01:11:41,300
heavily constantly in these
other systems out in the world.

1292
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,200
We talked about how the church
has a lot of money with you know

1293
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:46,000
over a hundred billion dollars
in investment.

1294
01:11:46,100 --> 01:11:49,600
It's those Investments could
disappear real fast because

1295
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:50,900
they're only on paper right
there.

1296
01:11:50,900 --> 01:11:53,300
Not tangible assets and you say
well what about the tangible

1297
01:11:53,300 --> 01:11:54,400
assets?
Well actually that's almost a

1298
01:11:54,407 --> 01:11:58,400
bigger problem because the LDS
church owns more land than any

1299
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:01,400
other land owner in the world I
think and especially the United

1300
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,600
States, it's a lot of land.
I mean I forget how much of the

1301
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:07,100
State of Florida is owned by the
church, was one of the most

1302
01:12:07,100 --> 01:12:09,100
famous, you know what I mean?
Because we're talking like

1303
01:12:09,100 --> 01:12:10,700
million square miles or
something.

1304
01:12:10,700 --> 01:12:14,100
We're talking incomprehensibly
large amount of land Holdings.

1305
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:19,300
Well, the church in Cases
doesn't pay any property tax on

1306
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,000
any of that.
I worked, I worked in a

1307
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:24,000
recorders.
There's a couple of exceptions

1308
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:25,800
but generally they don't pay
any.

1309
01:12:25,900 --> 01:12:27,800
I work in recorders office for a
while.

1310
01:12:27,900 --> 01:12:32,500
Hmm, almost all of it is
tax-exempt.

1311
01:12:33,300 --> 01:12:36,400
Doesn't even get a serial
number, right.

1312
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:38,700
Oh my goodness.
Because doesn't even get a tax

1313
01:12:38,700 --> 01:12:40,600
ID number.
Yeah, because just like, sorry,

1314
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:43,000
that's that's not going to be
taxed, right?

1315
01:12:43,100 --> 01:12:45,800
So here's the thing, they lose
their tax status, it isn't

1316
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,200
about.
About you'd think, oh, it's just

1317
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:53,000
about pitching a little extra.
No, it is not about us.

1318
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:55,300
Having to pay a little bit more
for the things that we enjoy.

1319
01:12:55,500 --> 01:13:01,200
It's about losing properties and
losing assets on the scales of

1320
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:02,400
billions and billions of
dollars.

1321
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:04,000
And I think they don't know how
to handle it.

1322
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:07,500
And frankly, I frankly I think I
don't have a whole lot of

1323
01:13:07,500 --> 01:13:11,400
sympathy for that because part
of what annoys me is that they

1324
01:13:11,407 --> 01:13:13,900
have all these resources and
they're not using them for the

1325
01:13:13,900 --> 01:13:17,600
benefit of the poor, the needy.
Not using these massive

1326
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:19,800
resources to truly improve the
world.

1327
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,300
And to me, that's what Mormonism
is all about.

1328
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:26,300
Isn't that what Mormonism was
from the very beginning was

1329
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:29,700
changing the world holding Zion,
right?

1330
01:13:29,700 --> 01:13:32,600
It was about a bunch of people
who lost everything but said

1331
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:36,100
we're going to build a city in
the desert until we build a

1332
01:13:36,108 --> 01:13:39,800
Celestial Kingdom on the earth.
You know, that was the point.

1333
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:43,700
And so the idea that the church
has a bunch of assets And that

1334
01:13:43,700 --> 01:13:48,000
the church members aren't living
these higher Lifestyles.

1335
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:49,900
What about the Gathering of
Israel?

1336
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:52,800
We're not Gathering anybody.
What about building the city?

1337
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,400
The New Jerusalem.
It was hundreds of billions of

1338
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:59,400
dollars and these land Holdings
and other assets all over the

1339
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:01,000
world.
I mean, I don't know how much it

1340
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:02,600
adds up to but it wouldn't
surprise me at all.

1341
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:06,000
If it's if it isn't an excess of
a trillion dollars worth of

1342
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:12,300
total value, it probably is why
couldn't you move 10 or 15 or 20

1343
01:14:12,300 --> 01:14:14,200
million people?
People to Jackson County,

1344
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:17,800
Missouri, and build a city that
would wow, that would shock the

1345
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:20,300
nation's.
Why not do that?

1346
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:25,100
Because that's what our Doctrine
is right, but instead they're

1347
01:14:25,100 --> 01:14:28,600
just sitting on it.
You know.

1348
01:14:30,100 --> 01:14:32,900
Put the ear muffs back on the
kids, you know, they say karma

1349
01:14:32,900 --> 01:14:34,500
is a bitch, right?
Okay.

1350
01:14:35,500 --> 01:14:38,500
And I'm telling you, the church
is just not building Good Karma

1351
01:14:38,500 --> 01:14:40,500
with this, right?
Right now.

1352
01:14:42,100 --> 01:14:46,500
If they're gonna hold on to
this, this treasure like a

1353
01:14:46,500 --> 01:14:49,900
miser.
That kind of lose it, right?

1354
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:51,800
This is the way it always
happens.

1355
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:54,400
They have might have resources
right now, but if they don't

1356
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:56,100
start using it for, what is
good?

1357
01:14:58,500 --> 01:15:01,700
They will find these Treasures
to be very slippery as it says,

1358
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:03,300
as a prophecies in the Book of
Mormon.

1359
01:15:03,500 --> 01:15:05,600
Absolute.
And so when I say this, I'm I

1360
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:07,400
guess I'm not just speaking for
myself.

1361
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:11,100
I'm saying a prophecy here.
The LDS church may seem Rich.

1362
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:16,600
It may seem powerful.
But if they don't do as the Lord

1363
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:18,900
commanded them to do with those
resources.

1364
01:15:19,300 --> 01:15:23,200
If they don't begin to repent,
they'll lose it.

1365
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:26,500
Don't know, I don't know when
but they will.

1366
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:31,500
One of the best things I ever
heard was a guy work with now,

1367
01:15:32,300 --> 01:15:35,200
who was a guy who served a
mission.

1368
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:40,000
He was in a bishopric and then
he just went inactive.

1369
01:15:40,900 --> 01:15:43,500
And when I asked him, what his
brain that seems strange because

1370
01:15:43,500 --> 01:15:44,600
you're like, wait, you're in the
bishopric?

1371
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:46,600
Why are you suddenly going
inactive, when I asked him, what

1372
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:49,700
his reasoning was?
He said, I went inactive, when I

1373
01:15:49,700 --> 01:15:54,200
saw City Creek, right?
Because they spent like, five,

1374
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:57,300
six billion dollars of tithing
money on that, but five or six

1375
01:15:57,300 --> 01:15:59,100
billion dollars, again, it's a
drop in the bucket.

1376
01:15:59,100 --> 01:16:01,400
Compared to the assets, they
have, I asked him.

1377
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:03,200
I said, why would that bother
you so bad?

1378
01:16:03,300 --> 01:16:05,100
Yeah.
And he said, as I looked, he

1379
01:16:05,100 --> 01:16:09,800
said one is that I served a
mission where people were in the

1380
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:12,800
Philippines where people were
devastatingly poor.

1381
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:18,800
Sure, devastatingly poor, and he
said, when I saw that my stomach

1382
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:22,600
churned and the words that came
to my mind is Behold The Great

1383
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:26,500
and spacious building.
Oh no, I was like, yeah, they

1384
01:16:26,500 --> 01:16:27,900
built it.
And it looks like that's that's

1385
01:16:27,900 --> 01:16:29,800
pretty fitting.
They built a great spacious

1386
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:31,700
building across the street, I
mean, right?

1387
01:16:31,700 --> 01:16:34,600
And basically it's the whole
development project for all of

1388
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:37,800
downtown, right?
But but even then you've all

1389
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,600
those buildings combined are
those worth more than a soul.

1390
01:16:40,900 --> 01:16:43,200
Well and he you know here's the
thing.

1391
01:16:43,208 --> 01:16:46,800
The thing, I mean, if you, if
you really want to do that and I

1392
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:50,400
can make a case that, you know,
you may need Commerce and the

1393
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:52,600
City of God, right?
Sure.

1394
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,800
I don't have where she do that,
but why not bring over some of

1395
01:16:55,808 --> 01:17:00,300
those workers in the Philippines
who are starving and have them

1396
01:17:00,300 --> 01:17:04,600
help build Zion, right?
Why not invite them to a better

1397
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:07,200
way of living, yes, why not
bring them in?

1398
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:11,400
Why not do those things?
And and I think that point, I

1399
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:16,200
think the point you made is is a
the point is that, if these, If

1400
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:21,100
These funds do not start getting
allocated to what they profess,

1401
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:26,300
they're there for They want long
retain them.

1402
01:17:26,500 --> 01:17:28,500
Well, not only will they not
retain them?

1403
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:32,600
Let's just say they do retain
them to the end of time to when

1404
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:36,700
Jesus comes back.
No still means nothing then

1405
01:17:36,700 --> 01:17:38,600
doesn't it?
I think it'll be to their

1406
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:40,300
damnation.
Yeah.

1407
01:17:40,500 --> 01:17:43,600
Yeah.
It could be a testament to.

1408
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:46,400
I don't know.
The hubris I guess of man that

1409
01:17:46,700 --> 01:17:49,300
you know here's the other thing
to you talking about all this

1410
01:17:49,300 --> 01:17:52,400
work on the Salt Lake Temple, I
bet that cost of pile of money.

1411
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:56,500
Oh dude, and what you're telling
me is if they had just let alone

1412
01:17:56,800 --> 01:17:59,300
left well, enough alone, they
would have they would have

1413
01:17:59,300 --> 01:18:02,800
preserved Our Heritage, our
Doctrine are the spiritual and

1414
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:04,100
sacred things of God much
better.

1415
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:08,000
They're literally using a
Fortune of money to desecrate

1416
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:11,800
God's Temple here was so that's
not a good use of funds.

1417
01:18:11,900 --> 01:18:14,200
That's all I'm saying.
If you remember correctly, one

1418
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:18,000
of the major points that was
made in the renovation of the

1419
01:18:18,008 --> 01:18:20,100
temple was we want to make it
seismic-proof.

1420
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:22,700
Okay.
Which confused me too because I

1421
01:18:22,708 --> 01:18:26,600
thought that you know being like
nine foot thick, Granite stone

1422
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:28,800
walls.
I thought it was pretty strong.

1423
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,400
No, you're not looking just for
strength.

1424
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:34,700
When you talk about seismic yeah
you're looking for Mobility.

1425
01:18:35,300 --> 01:18:38,400
Okay, one of the ways you do
that is you put rollers under

1426
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:39,900
you, put the building on
rollers.

1427
01:18:40,100 --> 01:18:41,100
Okay.
The foundation.

1428
01:18:41,100 --> 01:18:43,800
So that when the quaking starts,
it just kind of shifts the

1429
01:18:43,808 --> 01:18:47,500
building moves with the shift.
So you don't have cracks in

1430
01:18:47,500 --> 01:18:48,900
walls.
All sorts of things, it's

1431
01:18:48,900 --> 01:18:54,800
ingenious, but if that was all
it was, let's relatively

1432
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:56,000
speaking.
They wouldn't have had to

1433
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:58,100
actually do anything to the
interior, you know, they could

1434
01:18:58,100 --> 01:19:01,700
have jacked up the bottom and
and I know it sounds nuts.

1435
01:19:01,700 --> 01:19:05,100
But there's actually Jack's that
jack up that end.

1436
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:09,100
A little stop humongous, Granite
temples, right?

1437
01:19:09,100 --> 01:19:11,300
And and slide those rollers in
there.

1438
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:15,900
Mmm, set him down, and that
would have been enough, but they

1439
01:19:15,900 --> 01:19:20,600
went and they gutted it again.
I can't stress that enough.

1440
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:23,500
They gutted it.
They are going out of their way

1441
01:19:23,500 --> 01:19:25,800
to get rid of any of that
residue left over.

1442
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:29,700
Well, and it because it is hard
though and I get it, it's really

1443
01:19:29,700 --> 01:19:32,300
hard.
If your Doctrine is being

1444
01:19:32,300 --> 01:19:35,000
contradicted by the symbols that
you're presenting, it's really

1445
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:39,000
If the if the ordinance that
you're doing now is so

1446
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:41,500
incompatible with the ordinance,
they were doing then that you

1447
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:45,400
the facility doesn't even work
for it anymore right now.

1448
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:48,500
I'm when I say I'm sympathetic,
I'm not saying that I agree with

1449
01:19:48,500 --> 01:19:52,300
those changes, but I can see the
problem, you know, they've got,

1450
01:19:53,700 --> 01:19:56,300
they've got a shovel on what
they want, is a hammer, they

1451
01:19:56,300 --> 01:19:59,000
need a totally different tool to
do a totally different job

1452
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:00,900
because they've got a totally
different ordinance, got a

1453
01:20:00,900 --> 01:20:03,500
different set of doctrines.
And if you're walking around

1454
01:20:03,500 --> 01:20:08,900
with Adam God, Doctrine on the
walls and plural marriage on the

1455
01:20:08,900 --> 01:20:13,700
walls and symbols, that they've
abandoned, that might have come

1456
01:20:13,700 --> 01:20:17,600
from free masonry or astrology
or these other things.

1457
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:22,200
If you've got those things,
literally carved in stone on

1458
01:20:22,200 --> 01:20:26,300
your temple.
It becomes really difficult to

1459
01:20:26,300 --> 01:20:28,800
teach something, contrary to the
things that they're right in

1460
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:32,400
front of the face of the of the
parishioner, right?

1461
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:35,000
The, the supplicant who comes
into that temple in this?

1462
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:39,200
I see that this is a Temple
dedicated to Adam God, I see

1463
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:41,000
that this is a Temple,
dedicated, the plural marriage.

1464
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,700
I see that this is a Temple
dedicated to these principles

1465
01:20:44,300 --> 01:20:45,900
and then you say, I don't know,
all that stuff is false

1466
01:20:45,900 --> 01:20:47,500
Doctrine.
We have this new thing we're

1467
01:20:47,500 --> 01:20:52,300
going to do instead becomes a
potential becomes really

1468
01:20:52,300 --> 01:20:56,300
difficult and and you know I
actually have heard especially

1469
01:20:56,300 --> 01:20:58,300
when I was a temple worker in
the mainstream LDS church

1470
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:02,800
amongst other tumble workers
will talk sometimes about how

1471
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:06,000
first time Temple guards will
come and ask really Really

1472
01:21:06,100 --> 01:21:07,900
uncomfortable, really difficult
questions.

1473
01:21:07,900 --> 01:21:12,000
Sometimes it's like, well, wait
a second, what is this about

1474
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:13,500
that?
What is this about that?

1475
01:21:13,500 --> 01:21:15,900
And you have to be like, oh, no,
it doesn't mean what you think

1476
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:18,800
anymore and given me a new
interpretation, right?

1477
01:21:19,700 --> 01:21:23,100
I love how the Lord works and
you can see it in this.

1478
01:21:23,500 --> 01:21:27,600
Hmm, at the same time, you have
a physical physical edifice that

1479
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:33,800
maintained so much symbolism of
days gone by hmm, and not just

1480
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:37,800
days.
Gone by But principles that have

1481
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:41,700
been abandoned and at the same
time, you now have a Bullet Bill

1482
01:21:41,700 --> 01:21:44,800
that comes out where the church
throws.

1483
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:48,700
Its weight behind gay marriage,
a marriage for the first time

1484
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:52,700
and then it gets worse though.
They actually carve out a

1485
01:21:52,700 --> 01:21:55,500
section where they say, this
does not apply to plural

1486
01:21:55,500 --> 01:21:58,600
marriage.
Right, right?

1487
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:02,300
There's Mega marriage acts
specifically states by the way.

1488
01:22:02,300 --> 01:22:03,800
This doesn't apply to plural
marriage.

1489
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:09,100
So you have the way the church
is working that totally

1490
01:22:09,100 --> 01:22:12,600
corresponds with what they're
doing physically to that Temple.

1491
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:20,900
Write a complete abandonment at
least back when I joined in 1995

1492
01:22:21,300 --> 01:22:24,000
it was like plural.
Marriage is a true principle.

1493
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:25,700
We just don't practice it right
now.

1494
01:22:26,300 --> 01:22:29,000
At least there was that now,
right?

1495
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:31,000
But now they're like no it's not
a true principle at all.

1496
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:35,200
We totally reject.
We totally reject it in this act

1497
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:40,300
in the Defense of Marriage Act,
we completely 100%.

1498
01:22:41,500 --> 01:22:43,500
Disavow.
Yeah.

1499
01:22:43,500 --> 01:22:48,800
And now we're going to make the
physical edifice reflect reflect

1500
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:50,700
these new beliefs, these new
beliefs.

1501
01:22:51,700 --> 01:22:54,900
And that's why when I talk to
people and they say, why are you

1502
01:22:54,900 --> 01:22:58,100
so passionate about this?
I'm like, because it is the

1503
01:22:58,100 --> 01:23:01,600
final seed change.
I believe that this is the final

1504
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:07,700
change where you will look and
say this doesn't This doesn't

1505
01:23:07,700 --> 01:23:12,600
look anything like 1985.
No, not anymore.

1506
01:23:13,700 --> 01:23:17,500
Not just 98 or 1975, right?
That matter, you know, because

1507
01:23:17,500 --> 01:23:20,600
that's where the big change
between 1975 and 1985 was the

1508
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:23,400
garments, right?
And once again, I I think that

1509
01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:27,800
one of the big differences with
the Garment was, what do you do

1510
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:31,400
when you've got symbols, that
teach things you don't like

1511
01:23:31,407 --> 01:23:32,700
anymore?
Well, you got to get rid of

1512
01:23:32,700 --> 01:23:35,200
those symbols.
Yeah, you've got to change it

1513
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,900
because it's just too on the
nose to keep presenting symbols

1514
01:23:38,900 --> 01:23:40,600
and then saying, oh yeah, but we
don't really believe that

1515
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:44,700
anymore and we don't have Have
to go that far back.

1516
01:23:44,700 --> 01:23:47,800
Let's go back three years.
When when Russell, I'm Nelson

1517
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:52,400
comes out and says The word
Mormon is a victory for Satan,

1518
01:23:53,100 --> 01:23:56,600
right, right.
And I'm like, forget the fact

1519
01:23:56,600 --> 01:24:01,200
that for such a long time, it
was the Mormon Tabernacle Choir

1520
01:24:01,700 --> 01:24:05,500
that you had Mormon dot-org that
you had right?

1521
01:24:05,500 --> 01:24:11,000
The, I'm a Mormon campaign, the
movies, Meet The Mormons, the I

1522
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:13,300
mean, yeah.
Well, and it seems a little just

1523
01:24:13,300 --> 01:24:15,200
seems ridiculous.
Almost it's like, you know, you

1524
01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:17,800
just double down on this and now
you're backing out.

1525
01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:22,500
Well, I would I would say I
don't think it's comical.

1526
01:24:22,900 --> 01:24:29,200
I think it's 1984 George.
Orwell kind of spooky changing.

1527
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:32,500
Here's the new dictionary of
Newspeak, right, right.

1528
01:24:32,500 --> 01:24:35,500
This Newspeak is going to
eliminate the word Mormon.

1529
01:24:35,500 --> 01:24:37,300
So, exactly.
Don't get to use that word

1530
01:24:37,300 --> 01:24:42,000
anymore and this would lie.
This is Is to believe.

1531
01:24:43,200 --> 01:24:49,900
That this is not simply change
for efficiency, I can kind of

1532
01:24:49,900 --> 01:24:53,500
get behind that right?
Sometimes efficiency should

1533
01:24:53,500 --> 01:24:58,300
mean, things are faster better
sleeker more elegant, or, or eat

1534
01:24:58,300 --> 01:25:00,500
more easily deliverable to the
people.

1535
01:25:00,500 --> 01:25:01,600
Sure, right.
Right.

1536
01:25:01,900 --> 01:25:04,600
I want my mailman to have an
efficient route, right?

1537
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:06,600
Because that's how I get my
stuff, right.

1538
01:25:06,700 --> 01:25:09,500
And so when we're talking about
efficiency within the church,

1539
01:25:09,500 --> 01:25:12,100
that was always something that
we touted as members, right.

1540
01:25:12,100 --> 01:25:13,900
Sure.
Special When it came to charity,

1541
01:25:13,900 --> 01:25:16,000
right?
We were the first boots on the

1542
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:20,100
ground and we were, we were so
organized and so efficient, I'm

1543
01:25:20,100 --> 01:25:27,900
totally cool with that, but
don't Earmuffs don't piss on me

1544
01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:29,600
and tell me it's raining.
Right?

1545
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:33,600
Right, because because because
it's not the same thing.

1546
01:25:33,900 --> 01:25:35,500
Yeah.
We're not talking about

1547
01:25:35,500 --> 01:25:39,500
efficiency, something?
And sometimes things just can't

1548
01:25:39,500 --> 01:25:42,300
be efficient because they're too
important, right?

1549
01:25:42,300 --> 01:25:46,600
Yeah.
I don't want matters of Eternal

1550
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:50,800
consequence becoming so
efficient that we forget things

1551
01:25:51,100 --> 01:25:52,600
or the we forget what the point
was.

1552
01:25:53,100 --> 01:25:56,700
Yes, you know, Oh, and let's not
for a minute, think that that

1553
01:25:56,700 --> 01:26:00,700
isn't what's going on with the
temple endowment, right?

1554
01:26:00,700 --> 01:26:02,400
Well right.
Or even the sealing ceremony

1555
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:05,200
they've changed the sealing
ceremony recently and they

1556
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:09,000
haven't completely taken out.
All gendered references there.

1557
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:10,800
But they've already set now,
they've set the precedent that

1558
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:13,300
they can make those changes and
they took out several

1559
01:26:13,300 --> 01:26:17,500
gender-based references in which
case how much harder would it be

1560
01:26:17,508 --> 01:26:20,200
to turn it into a gay ceremony.
It really would not be that

1561
01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:22,900
difficult.
Yeah and and I've heard the

1562
01:26:22,900 --> 01:26:25,800
argument being made This these
changes were in the works.

1563
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:29,400
Clear back when they made the
changes in 1990, because they

1564
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:40,200
did change rather than have each
brother promise to be faithful

1565
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:42,500
to his wife.
And each woman, wife promise to

1566
01:26:42,500 --> 01:26:45,400
be faithful to her husband.
When it came to law of Chastity,

1567
01:26:45,900 --> 01:26:48,900
they then combined it.
And said, do you all promise

1568
01:26:48,900 --> 01:26:52,900
that you will be faithful to
your husband and wife, only one,

1569
01:26:53,500 --> 01:26:56,100
right?
Yeah, because originally, it was

1570
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:58,700
given separately, right?
To the sisters that they would

1571
01:26:58,700 --> 01:27:03,600
only the be faithful only to
their husbands as recognized by

1572
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:06,800
God and to men that their only
be recognized to their wives.

1573
01:27:07,100 --> 01:27:09,800
They be faithful to their wives
as recognized by God, right?

1574
01:27:09,900 --> 01:27:12,900
And then of course, they made
that that singular though.

1575
01:27:12,900 --> 01:27:15,200
I do remember in the Salt Lake
Temple because of the live

1576
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:16,900
session.
There's some variation.

1577
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:18,700
Yeah.
Sometimes in presentation

1578
01:27:18,700 --> 01:27:22,100
because different people saying
different things and I did I did

1579
01:27:22,100 --> 01:27:24,000
notice one time in the Salt Lake
Temple.

1580
01:27:24,100 --> 01:27:31,100
Well, when he said to the men,
each of you promised to be the

1581
01:27:31,100 --> 01:27:35,300
law of the law of Chastity with
your wive's plural, which I

1582
01:27:35,308 --> 01:27:36,700
thought was amusing.
Yeah.

1583
01:27:36,700 --> 01:27:42,200
That particular time.
But but yeah, you know it,

1584
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:44,100
that's interesting.
And all of that if you just

1585
01:27:44,100 --> 01:27:49,300
turns into, if we eliminate
gender, A lot of people say,

1586
01:27:49,300 --> 01:27:50,900
well, that's great.
Now, we have to worry about

1587
01:27:50,900 --> 01:27:54,900
gender anymore.
The problem is, is that if you,

1588
01:27:55,800 --> 01:28:01,500
if you really dig deep into the
archetypes of and mysticism, and

1589
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:06,300
the mysteries of God, I'm sorry,
but Mormonism is extremely

1590
01:28:06,300 --> 01:28:10,800
heteronormative in certain ways.
We have a place for not only a

1591
01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:13,000
heavenly father, but I have only
mother.

1592
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:16,200
Yeah.
And that means that we believe

1593
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:20,800
in this like Divine and eternal,
Creation Divine and eternal

1594
01:28:20,900 --> 01:28:24,300
increase and that these powers
of life through like sexual

1595
01:28:24,300 --> 01:28:27,900
reproduction with male and
female with, you know, the sperm

1596
01:28:27,900 --> 01:28:30,700
and the egg.
With, with all of that is, it's

1597
01:28:30,700 --> 01:28:32,900
a Divine pattern.
It's not just the most

1598
01:28:32,900 --> 01:28:35,000
convenient thing on this broken
mortal world.

1599
01:28:35,100 --> 01:28:38,800
It is something that is exists
before the mortal world was even

1600
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:41,600
created.
It's something that exists

1601
01:28:41,600 --> 01:28:46,000
that's Eternal.
And so yeah, it's really tricky,

1602
01:28:46,300 --> 01:28:48,800
it's really tricky to then go
back and say, oh, I guess that

1603
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:53,300
stuff doesn't matter.
Well, you seek to get rid of

1604
01:28:53,300 --> 01:28:56,700
gender.
The problem is, is that in

1605
01:28:56,700 --> 01:28:58,900
doing?
So you have to tell a lie Ben.

1606
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:03,100
Yeah, you have to tell a lie.
I remember in the latest

1607
01:29:03,100 --> 01:29:08,500
incarnation of the holy writ
known as the church handbook of

1608
01:29:08,500 --> 01:29:11,000
instruction, which of course,
everyone knows is the most

1609
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:13,400
important of the standard Works.
Yes, at least if you're in

1610
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:15,500
church leadership.
Absolutely.

1611
01:29:15,500 --> 01:29:18,200
I think this is another one that
is good.

1612
01:29:18,300 --> 01:29:20,700
To probably piss some people off
and get some run and that's

1613
01:29:20,700 --> 01:29:24,500
okay.
But I firmly believe the church

1614
01:29:24,500 --> 01:29:28,500
has made a conscious decision to
replace the standard works with

1615
01:29:28,500 --> 01:29:30,400
the handbook of instructions,
right?

1616
01:29:30,500 --> 01:29:34,800
And the Holy Spirit with kirton
mcconkie, and nowhere, was that

1617
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:39,500
more evident than what happened
in that case in Arizona, where

1618
01:29:39,900 --> 01:29:43,500
you had of the abuse case, if
the abuse case, right?

1619
01:29:43,500 --> 01:29:46,700
Where the guy comes in and
basically says, yeah, I've been

1620
01:29:46,700 --> 01:29:51,100
abusing my daughters.
So the bishop now now this is

1621
01:29:51,200 --> 01:29:55,600
he's got this little hesitant
relationship, so they're so they

1622
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:58,400
look at Arizona law, right?
Okay, okay.

1623
01:29:58,400 --> 01:29:59,700
Hold on.
Hold on.

1624
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:03,400
You could wake me up from a
coma.

1625
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:07,300
I think you could wake, most
people up from a coma and say,

1626
01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:12,200
do just admitted to molesting
his infant daughter.

1627
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:14,300
Yeah.
What's the first order of

1628
01:30:14,308 --> 01:30:18,100
business?
Get those kids and that mother

1629
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:20,900
to safety now?
Right.

1630
01:30:20,900 --> 01:30:25,500
Do not wait, do not pass.
Go do not collect. $200, get

1631
01:30:25,500 --> 01:30:30,400
their asses to safety somewhere.
I don't care where you.

1632
01:30:30,700 --> 01:30:33,500
Has to be now too.
Because you're not, you have an

1633
01:30:33,500 --> 01:30:38,700
entire backing of a rich
organization, put them in a

1634
01:30:38,708 --> 01:30:41,900
hotel, get him set up an
apartment something.

1635
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:43,900
Yep.
But separate them and then right

1636
01:30:43,900 --> 01:30:46,400
now and then deal with that
monster.

1637
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:50,700
Yeah, right.
No, no, somehow.

1638
01:30:51,100 --> 01:30:55,300
Again, you could wake 99% of the
population up from a coma and

1639
01:30:55,300 --> 01:30:57,300
say you have all this at your
disposal.

1640
01:30:57,400 --> 01:31:00,000
What do you do?
And everybody knows the answer

1641
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:04,400
without About this very hard at
all know this, bishop goes.

1642
01:31:04,900 --> 01:31:08,800
Yeah, better call kirton
mcconkie well and he maybe has

1643
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:10,800
to call kirton mcconkie but he's
definitely should have gotten

1644
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:12,300
those kids to safety first,
right?

1645
01:31:12,500 --> 01:31:13,900
But that's the thing.
Right?

1646
01:31:13,900 --> 01:31:17,700
Is that, that phone call should
be about forth on your priority

1647
01:31:17,700 --> 01:31:20,800
list if you're a devout Mormon,
right?

1648
01:31:21,300 --> 01:31:22,900
But the church Hymn of
instruction, says, the very

1649
01:31:22,900 --> 01:31:25,500
first thing you do, is you call
this hotline number right now,

1650
01:31:25,500 --> 01:31:28,200
what about the spirit, What
about the spirit?

1651
01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:30,000
Why not take five minutes to
pray about it?

1652
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:33,300
I'm going to do not pray that I
can call the lawyer.

1653
01:31:33,300 --> 01:31:36,100
Do we got something bigger than
the spirit kirton mcconkie,

1654
01:31:37,500 --> 01:31:39,000
right?
So yeah.

1655
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:46,200
But but back back to the point
here is that the the new

1656
01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:50,100
Handbook of instructions
actually says it's okay to call

1657
01:31:50,100 --> 01:31:54,700
somebody of a different gender
by a different gender within

1658
01:31:54,700 --> 01:31:58,700
church, that's what they're
comfortable with and I'm like in

1659
01:31:58,700 --> 01:32:03,800
that kind of like lying though.
If you know that the dude to

1660
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:08,000
dude, you don't tell people that
that's a woman.

1661
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:12,400
Aren't you participating in the
Lie by saying that's a chick?

1662
01:32:15,500 --> 01:32:16,700
Yeah.
Right.

1663
01:32:16,700 --> 01:32:20,100
You know, and I think one of the
most interesting know, I think,

1664
01:32:20,100 --> 01:32:22,500
yeah, the architect that here in
Provo.

1665
01:32:22,500 --> 01:32:24,600
Of course, one of the most
interesting things is the new

1666
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:28,600
MTC, the big building
construction expansion of the

1667
01:32:28,608 --> 01:32:33,400
MTC and all that stuff was done
by a church member who

1668
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:34,800
transitioned from male to
female.

1669
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:37,500
Yep.
And it was interesting when they

1670
01:32:37,500 --> 01:32:39,800
were doing the ribbon cutting to
open the MTC.

1671
01:32:41,100 --> 01:32:46,900
He she, she, I guess now, Shows
up and is therefore the

1672
01:32:46,900 --> 01:32:50,800
ribbon-cutting and all of that
and they said well sister.

1673
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:55,500
So and so, you know, thank you
for all the work you did on this

1674
01:32:55,500 --> 01:33:00,300
building, you know, to design it
and the Chief Architect, right.

1675
01:33:00,300 --> 01:33:02,700
Yeah.
And so yeah, I mean that's it.

1676
01:33:02,700 --> 01:33:05,100
Is an interesting thing.
It's one thing in theory, it's

1677
01:33:05,100 --> 01:33:07,800
another thing face-to-face, when
you're like, okay, now, what do

1678
01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:09,300
we do?
We're right here, you know.

1679
01:33:09,500 --> 01:33:13,800
Yeah, I it's it's a tricky time
in which we live but

1680
01:33:13,900 --> 01:33:18,600
Fortunately, I think the church
has made it even exceedingly

1681
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:22,800
harder on itself because they
have, they have decided that

1682
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:24,200
they'll change.
No matter what.

1683
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:29,500
Right, that, that there is no to
there is no ground to Sacred

1684
01:33:29,700 --> 01:33:31,800
that you can't yield a little
bit.

1685
01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:36,700
And well, if it suits, their
ordinance work better,

1686
01:33:37,500 --> 01:33:41,200
especially with their new
ordinances, If they think that

1687
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:44,500
it's suits, that better
apparently, they're willing to

1688
01:33:44,500 --> 01:33:49,400
even change the temple, right?
Well, so yeah, what is more.

1689
01:33:51,400 --> 01:33:54,500
There can't be anything too,
sacred then because that

1690
01:33:54,500 --> 01:33:57,500
literally is the most sacred
thing is not only the temple,

1691
01:33:57,500 --> 01:34:00,200
but the covenants we make with
God there, and if they're

1692
01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:04,700
willing to change those things,
to please to please the world.

1693
01:34:05,700 --> 01:34:07,100
Those are the most sacred
things.

1694
01:34:07,100 --> 01:34:09,500
I can't imagine that.
Anything else could be more

1695
01:34:09,500 --> 01:34:11,200
sacred.
In the teachings of the Prophet

1696
01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:17,700
Joseph Smith Joseph says that
the ordinances were given to Man

1697
01:34:17,700 --> 01:34:22,100
by Adam and not to be altered
period, right?

1698
01:34:22,900 --> 01:34:25,400
So if needs to be altered or
changed, he even says

1699
01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:28,500
specifically.
So if they've been altered and

1700
01:34:28,500 --> 01:34:31,800
you you claim it's by an act of
Revelation.

1701
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:34,700
Does that mean we have to go
back and read you all the old

1702
01:34:34,700 --> 01:34:38,800
Temple work now?
To reflect the new changes if

1703
01:34:38,800 --> 01:34:44,600
that was really a revelation
right and yet they don't really

1704
01:34:44,600 --> 01:34:46,700
want to do that.
You don't want to talk about

1705
01:34:46,700 --> 01:34:48,500
that.
There's all sorts of problems

1706
01:34:48,500 --> 01:34:53,400
here that that I think people
are super I don't know.

1707
01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:56,300
It just reminds me of tevye in
Fiddler on the Roof.

1708
01:34:57,300 --> 01:34:59,700
Wait a second.
If yeah, he's right.

1709
01:34:59,800 --> 01:35:03,100
And he's right, they can't both
be right, right?

1710
01:35:03,100 --> 01:35:06,300
And then Teddy goes huh, you are
also right?

1711
01:35:07,900 --> 01:35:10,400
Yeah, right.
Because it's, you know, it's

1712
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:13,400
really hard when you've got
these really contrary things and

1713
01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:17,800
this is the mental gymnastics
you you know, you really try so

1714
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:19,900
hard.
A lot of people in Mormonism.

1715
01:35:19,900 --> 01:35:24,100
Try so hard for so long to try
to say, I want it this way and I

1716
01:35:24,108 --> 01:35:25,500
want it that way.
I want to have my cake.

1717
01:35:25,500 --> 01:35:29,000
I want to eat it too.
I want plural marriage to be

1718
01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:31,500
good and true for my
grandparents, but I wanted to be

1719
01:35:31,500 --> 01:35:36,300
totally wrong and evil for me.
I want the temple ordinances to

1720
01:35:36,300 --> 01:35:37,200
be fine.
Fine.

1721
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:38,900
When the Salt Lake Temple was
built.

1722
01:35:39,300 --> 01:35:43,600
I also wanted to be fine after.
It's been rebuilt in a totally

1723
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:47,600
new way.
I want both to be fine but how

1724
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:50,000
right, how can they possibly
both be right?

1725
01:35:50,000 --> 01:35:53,600
And I think that that is really
the difference between a

1726
01:35:53,600 --> 01:35:58,400
so-called Mormon fundamentalist
and simply a church member,

1727
01:35:58,500 --> 01:36:00,400
right?
Is that a Mormon fundamentalist

1728
01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:03,900
says They can't both be right,
right?

1729
01:36:03,900 --> 01:36:06,100
I have to I have to hold the
something and I'm going to hold

1730
01:36:06,100 --> 01:36:08,200
to the scriptures or I'm gonna
hold of the fundamentals or I'm

1731
01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:12,200
going to hold to something.
Some deep fundamental thing that

1732
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:15,500
I know is true and I'm going to
hold on to that testimony and

1733
01:36:15,500 --> 01:36:19,900
I'm going to have to let the
other stuff go because I can't I

1734
01:36:19,900 --> 01:36:21,500
can't have my cake and eat it
too.

1735
01:36:21,500 --> 01:36:23,300
That was the promise of the
Gospel, right?

1736
01:36:23,300 --> 01:36:26,700
Is that truth has been restored.
Mmm.

1737
01:36:26,900 --> 01:36:29,500
And you no longer have to
wonder, right, you right.

1738
01:36:29,500 --> 01:36:32,300
You can dive into restoration
has happened and so you know

1739
01:36:32,300 --> 01:36:36,000
it's you can dive into Mysteries
but understand that the Bedrock

1740
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:41,400
truths aren't changing that was
the appeal to me to Mormonism,

1741
01:36:41,400 --> 01:36:42,500
right?
Amongst other things.

1742
01:36:42,500 --> 01:36:45,500
That was a major appeal to me
was was to go that way.

1743
01:36:45,700 --> 01:36:49,200
Now been let me play Devil's
Advocate and this case probably,

1744
01:36:49,300 --> 01:36:51,300
Bubbly literally Devil's,
Advocate.

1745
01:36:51,300 --> 01:36:54,200
Okay.
But then weren't we built a

1746
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:58,200
church built on continuing
Revelation, so why shouldn't we

1747
01:36:58,200 --> 01:36:59,900
expect certain changes to
happen?

1748
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:07,200
Revelation isn't the same thing
as a change.

1749
01:37:07,500 --> 01:37:09,500
Okay, Revelation is getting more
light.

1750
01:37:09,500 --> 01:37:15,700
So for example, here, in here in
the imagine you dear listener,

1751
01:37:15,700 --> 01:37:18,400
whatever room you're in, how
well-lit is it and how much can

1752
01:37:18,400 --> 01:37:21,800
you see?
Now, maybe it's brightly lit and

1753
01:37:21,800 --> 01:37:23,100
you can see a lot.
But you know what, you can't

1754
01:37:23,100 --> 01:37:27,100
really see around the corners.
Or you can't really see into the

1755
01:37:27,100 --> 01:37:30,100
closet or you don't can't see
inside the Box until you open

1756
01:37:30,100 --> 01:37:31,300
it.
But you can see everything else

1757
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:36,000
Revelation for my understanding
should mean that now you can see

1758
01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:38,400
around the corner and you go oh
there's something else over

1759
01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:41,200
there or now you're opening the
box and you're seeing what's

1760
01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:44,700
really inside.
It doesn't mean all of a sudden

1761
01:37:44,700 --> 01:37:46,700
that light is darkness and Truth
is false.

1762
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:50,500
And Up Is Down, black is white.
It doesn't mean that the things

1763
01:37:50,500 --> 01:37:53,800
you can already see by the Light
of the gospel and you've already

1764
01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:56,500
established that you You already
are experiencing are all of a

1765
01:37:56,500 --> 01:38:00,700
sudden cease to exist or that
reality itself will bend and

1766
01:38:00,700 --> 01:38:04,300
change like some kind of you
know, fever dream.

1767
01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:08,600
It means that there's more to
learn.

1768
01:38:08,700 --> 01:38:10,300
That's what Revelation is
supposed to mean.

1769
01:38:10,300 --> 01:38:12,600
And so when people say oh well,
it doesn't matter the change,

1770
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:13,900
that's what Revelation is,
Right?

1771
01:38:14,100 --> 01:38:17,600
It'd be like somebody to be like
somebody drugging me and say oh

1772
01:38:17,600 --> 01:38:20,500
that's just the way light is
sometimes light makes you see

1773
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:25,500
one thing and sometimes it makes
you see another so it doesn't

1774
01:38:25,500 --> 01:38:30,200
matter if you're hallucinating,
all kinds of bizarre things.

1775
01:38:31,500 --> 01:38:34,900
I'm you know, like like you said
the beginning, don't piss on me

1776
01:38:34,907 --> 01:38:37,600
and tell me it's raining.
Do you know what I mean?

1777
01:38:37,700 --> 01:38:39,700
This is exactly the same kind of
thing.

1778
01:38:39,700 --> 01:38:42,700
Don't, it's gaslighting.
Not, this is why lighting.

1779
01:38:42,700 --> 01:38:44,700
And looking at your room is the
perfect example list.

1780
01:38:44,700 --> 01:38:48,800
It is gaslighting when somebody
says, oh, I didn't see that.

1781
01:38:48,800 --> 01:38:51,300
That's not real.
No, it's right in front of me.

1782
01:38:51,400 --> 01:38:54,500
This has been an established
Truth for hundreds, maybe

1783
01:38:54,500 --> 01:38:56,800
thousands of years.
This is part of my Heritage.

1784
01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:58,400
This is part of my culture.
This is something that I've

1785
01:38:58,400 --> 01:39:00,700
always known to be true.
This is something I've

1786
01:39:00,700 --> 01:39:03,400
experienced myself.
I know to be true and now you're

1787
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,200
trying to tell me.
It doesn't even exist.

1788
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:08,100
It never existed.
Listed Mormon is Mormon, was

1789
01:39:08,100 --> 01:39:10,800
always a bad word against us.
It was vulgar.

1790
01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:15,400
It was it was a slur.
It said, it's a victory for

1791
01:39:15,400 --> 01:39:20,000
Satan and it always has been And
it's like, you know, I remember

1792
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:23,300
five years ago when the church
was promoting the word, Mormon

1793
01:39:23,300 --> 01:39:27,400
as our brand and now you're
trying to tell me that never

1794
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:30,300
happened, and that's just gas
lighting.

1795
01:39:30,700 --> 01:39:35,500
It's not Revelation.
It's making up random things and

1796
01:39:35,500 --> 01:39:39,200
pretending that they're real.
It's a little, it's very

1797
01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:44,100
pathological.
Yeah, i-i'll go back to the

1798
01:39:44,100 --> 01:39:47,600
source of the Restoration in
Joseph Smith, the Earth First,

1799
01:39:48,300 --> 01:39:52,300
He said anybody that preaches to
you a different gospel than I

1800
01:39:52,300 --> 01:39:56,400
am, preaching team set them
apart as an imposter?

1801
01:39:57,400 --> 01:39:59,400
Yeah.
Yeah, right.

1802
01:39:59,400 --> 01:40:02,500
He set the he set the bar.
Okay.

1803
01:40:02,900 --> 01:40:06,900
I didn't set the bar.
Russell him Nelson, didn't set

1804
01:40:06,900 --> 01:40:10,400
the bar.
The Lord through Joseph Smith,

1805
01:40:10,400 --> 01:40:12,900
set the bar, right?
And right?

1806
01:40:12,900 --> 01:40:14,500
And this is one of the reasons
why it says in the Doctrine and

1807
01:40:14,500 --> 01:40:19,800
Covenants.
It says The light shineth in

1808
01:40:19,800 --> 01:40:22,400
darkness and the Darkness
comprehended, it not.

1809
01:40:23,700 --> 01:40:26,900
We're also warned that a light
shall Break Forth among them who

1810
01:40:26,900 --> 01:40:31,500
sit in darkness, but they
receive it not for they perceive

1811
01:40:31,500 --> 01:40:34,800
not the light.
Wherefore, this is the

1812
01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:38,900
condemnation of man.
These scriptures I think are

1813
01:40:38,900 --> 01:40:43,400
speaking specifically about the
latter part of the latter days

1814
01:40:43,400 --> 01:40:48,400
our time right now. 2022 2023.
The Lord is saying to us right

1815
01:40:48,400 --> 01:40:50,800
at this juncture.
You know what's going to happen

1816
01:40:51,200 --> 01:40:54,100
is that the gospel will be
restored, but not everyone's

1817
01:40:54,100 --> 01:40:57,100
going to embrace it.
Not everyone's going to receive

1818
01:40:57,100 --> 01:40:58,600
it.
Another one of my favorite

1819
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:01,400
prophecies about this as a
prophecy by Jesus Christ himself

1820
01:41:01,500 --> 01:41:03,000
there, need 1/3 Nathan.
Yep.

1821
01:41:03,200 --> 01:41:05,500
And that's why it's one of my
favorite scriptures because he

1822
01:41:05,500 --> 01:41:08,800
says, look in the latter days.
The fullness of the Gospel will

1823
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:11,600
be restored but not everyone
will receive it.

1824
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:15,100
And when they reject the
fullness of the Gospel, they

1825
01:41:15,100 --> 01:41:17,500
will lose the fullness of the
Gospel will go back to the house

1826
01:41:17,500 --> 01:41:18,600
of ill, go back to that
original.

1827
01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:23,700
So and 35 1610 the Lord says,
specifically that in the latter

1828
01:41:23,700 --> 01:41:27,800
days, the people who receive his
prophecy, the people who receive

1829
01:41:27,800 --> 01:41:30,300
the Book of Mormon, the people
who receive the restoration are

1830
01:41:30,300 --> 01:41:35,300
going to lose the fullness but
don't fear.

1831
01:41:35,300 --> 01:41:39,100
It's not gone.
It's not gone just because you

1832
01:41:39,100 --> 01:41:42,100
can't see it in the same way
it's still there.

1833
01:41:42,100 --> 01:41:45,400
It's just Hidden from the
wicked, it's hidden from the

1834
01:41:45,407 --> 01:41:48,600
world.
The only way to find it is to

1835
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:51,300
become and be numbered with
House of Israel.

1836
01:41:51,300 --> 01:41:53,400
Come.
And remember the covenants which

1837
01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:58,000
I made under your father's.
In other words, stop trying to

1838
01:41:58,000 --> 01:41:59,900
pretend truth, can be whatever
you want it to be.

1839
01:42:00,200 --> 01:42:05,300
Look back, grab the iron Rod of
your scriptures, open them up

1840
01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:08,200
and you'll find there's truths
in there that have always been

1841
01:42:08,200 --> 01:42:14,500
true and always will be and just
like a rod of iron Firm and even

1842
01:42:14,500 --> 01:42:17,900
if you are so lost The Mists of
Darkness you can't see a thing.

1843
01:42:18,200 --> 01:42:21,500
Even if you can't walk, just
pull yourself hand-over-hand

1844
01:42:21,500 --> 01:42:23,600
along that rod and you will find
the tree.

1845
01:42:23,900 --> 01:42:27,800
Right.
You know, the other thing I said

1846
01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:33,100
about continuing Revelation is
that I'm totally game for.

1847
01:42:33,500 --> 01:42:36,200
Oh absolutely.
In fact, we need more Revelation

1848
01:42:36,200 --> 01:42:39,800
because there's obviously, I
mean, for example, your address

1849
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:41,500
my address, we live in Utah
County.

1850
01:42:42,500 --> 01:42:45,400
My address doesn't say lives in
the city of the New Jerusalem

1851
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:49,500
yet, right?
So, we obviously haven't done

1852
01:42:49,700 --> 01:42:51,300
everything.
We need to do, which means we

1853
01:42:51,300 --> 01:42:54,200
need to do better than Wilford
Woodruff Brigham Young.

1854
01:42:54,600 --> 01:42:57,500
We need to do better than Joseph
Smith was able to do, frankly,

1855
01:42:57,600 --> 01:42:59,900
we need to get there and build
the New Jerusalem.

1856
01:43:00,100 --> 01:43:02,000
And so, what's that going to
take that is going to take some

1857
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:04,200
more Revelation because we've
got a lot to learn.

1858
01:43:04,200 --> 01:43:06,300
We've got a lot to become if
we're going to get there.

1859
01:43:06,300 --> 01:43:09,800
You know?
I mean that same guy I was

1860
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:13,000
talking about, we've sat around
and, you know, bad His back and

1861
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:16,100
forth and I'm like, I could
totally see where there could be

1862
01:43:16,100 --> 01:43:18,400
other ordinances out there that
haven't been revealed yet.

1863
01:43:18,400 --> 01:43:20,700
Sure.
But there's a litmus test for

1864
01:43:20,700 --> 01:43:22,700
it.
Does it contradict, anything

1865
01:43:22,700 --> 01:43:25,100
does it contradict previous
resul Revelations?

1866
01:43:25,100 --> 01:43:27,200
Because if it does, you gotta
toss it out.

1867
01:43:27,200 --> 01:43:30,800
So it's one of those things that
Revelation, if I'm understanding

1868
01:43:30,800 --> 01:43:33,500
correctly.
And, and if you disagree, please

1869
01:43:33,500 --> 01:43:36,400
tell me.
But my thought is that, if it's

1870
01:43:36,400 --> 01:43:43,200
new revelation, that doesn't
contradict previous Ian, it's

1871
01:43:43,200 --> 01:43:46,100
worthy of being looked at for
sure, right?

1872
01:43:46,100 --> 01:43:48,400
And it's a doesn't, does it add
Insight?

1873
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:51,300
Does it add knowledge?
Does it does it?

1874
01:43:51,300 --> 01:43:53,500
Does it increase my love for
God?

1875
01:43:53,600 --> 01:43:55,900
Right?
Or does it decrease it?

1876
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:59,800
Right and so there's a litmus
test to be met there when you're

1877
01:43:59,800 --> 01:44:03,700
talking about new revelation.
So this idea that you know what

1878
01:44:04,100 --> 01:44:07,900
God changed his mind you know
let's go back let's just take

1879
01:44:07,900 --> 01:44:12,400
something away instead of adding
something new again let's jump.

1880
01:44:12,500 --> 01:44:17,000
Let's jump back into our time
machine and go way, way, way,

1881
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:22,200
way way back to 2017, when
pandemics like different worlds,

1882
01:44:22,200 --> 01:44:26,800
you know, different world.
When Russell mm Nelson, receives

1883
01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:31,800
that Revelation, he called it.
Where children of same-sex

1884
01:44:31,800 --> 01:44:34,800
couples 2015?
Yeah, can't, was it 15.

1885
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:39,600
Yeah, a child with us.
Any any person with a parent in

1886
01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:42,300
a same-sex marriage or is Right
anybody with this?

1887
01:44:42,500 --> 01:44:46,200
Parent, any parent either parent
in a same-sex marriage, could

1888
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:50,700
not be baptized, right?
Unless they were over 18 and

1889
01:44:50,700 --> 01:44:53,400
could disavow that parent.
Yeah.

1890
01:44:54,700 --> 01:44:56,800
Let's go ahead and let's move
forward.

1891
01:44:56,800 --> 01:44:59,700
What two years, maybe 2017 is
when I was thinking, it was

1892
01:44:59,700 --> 01:45:01,200
overturned.
I can't remember things.

1893
01:45:01,200 --> 01:45:04,700
Almost five years was it was a
20/20, not in 2020.

1894
01:45:04,900 --> 01:45:07,700
Okay, so 15 years got goes, you
know what?

1895
01:45:07,700 --> 01:45:09,800
Never mind.
Oops, my bad.

1896
01:45:09,800 --> 01:45:13,400
I, yeah, I know, here's another
Revelation, go change this,

1897
01:45:14,100 --> 01:45:15,900
right?
So, which happens a revelation

1898
01:45:15,900 --> 01:45:20,000
because it can't be both.
If that's the god you worship, I

1899
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:23,400
feel sorry for you because
that's not a God that can be

1900
01:45:23,400 --> 01:45:26,800
counted on.
That's not a God, who is

1901
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:30,400
unchanging and everlasting and
the same.

1902
01:45:30,400 --> 01:45:32,500
So, it's your day tomorrow,
right?

1903
01:45:32,500 --> 01:45:37,400
So, so let's say let's say, I am
a Christian who believes in this

1904
01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:39,800
type of God.
And I believe that through the

1905
01:45:39,800 --> 01:45:43,400
atonement of Jesus Christ, God
has decreed that I am forgiven

1906
01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:46,900
of my sins, God has decreed that
I can be saved and enter into

1907
01:45:46,900 --> 01:45:52,300
his glory, God has set imagine
dying even and being in the

1908
01:45:52,300 --> 01:45:54,200
presence of God and God saying
well done thou good and

1909
01:45:54,200 --> 01:45:55,800
faithful.
Faithful servant enter thou into

1910
01:45:55,800 --> 01:45:58,900
the joy of the Lord.
And you think I've done it?

1911
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:00,800
God through the atonement of
Christ.

1912
01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:05,600
I am redeemed.
How could you trust that God if

1913
01:46:05,600 --> 01:46:08,600
he changes his mind that quick,
how do you know in five or ten

1914
01:46:08,600 --> 01:46:11,600
or ten thousand or a hundred
million years at some point?

1915
01:46:11,700 --> 01:46:13,600
God's not going to wake up on
the wrong side of the bed some

1916
01:46:13,600 --> 01:46:15,800
morning and be like you know,
change my mind y'all.

1917
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:17,300
Damn to get out.
Yeah.

1918
01:46:17,900 --> 01:46:20,300
Yeah right.
Because if he can change the

1919
01:46:20,300 --> 01:46:22,900
terms of Salvation, if you can
change his covenants, if he can

1920
01:46:22,900 --> 01:46:29,200
change his laws, She's just too
inconsistent to be trusted young

1921
01:46:29,200 --> 01:46:31,300
and and so faith, faith is
destroyed.

1922
01:46:31,700 --> 01:46:37,200
Yeah, yeah.
So now let me ask you this.

1923
01:46:39,100 --> 01:46:46,200
You're a run-of-the-mill.
Elias guy, married got some

1924
01:46:46,200 --> 01:46:51,100
kids, good job, great social
network through the church.

1925
01:46:52,500 --> 01:46:55,200
But you notice this, what are
you doing?

1926
01:46:55,200 --> 01:47:00,400
And it's eating on you and you
know something's wrong look, I

1927
01:47:00,400 --> 01:47:02,800
still can test.
That everybody knows there's

1928
01:47:02,800 --> 01:47:06,000
something wrong.
Something's not right, the

1929
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:09,300
numbers don't add up to 12.
They're telling you two and two

1930
01:47:09,300 --> 01:47:14,800
is five and you know and you
know you know it's for What do

1931
01:47:14,800 --> 01:47:17,500
you do?
What do you do?

1932
01:47:18,700 --> 01:47:21,700
You know, I think the hard thing
is, the first thing you do is

1933
01:47:21,700 --> 01:47:23,700
the same thing.
You and I both did for a long

1934
01:47:23,700 --> 01:47:27,100
time and you kind of live a
little bit of a double life, you

1935
01:47:27,100 --> 01:47:29,500
hold fast to something.
You know, is true and you kind

1936
01:47:29,500 --> 01:47:31,400
of let the other stuff go you're
going to say.

1937
01:47:31,400 --> 01:47:33,400
Well, look, I know, something's
not right, but that doesn't have

1938
01:47:33,407 --> 01:47:37,100
to do anything different.
I mean, I was there for years

1939
01:47:37,500 --> 01:47:41,700
because I was really Disturbed.
When they changed the temple,

1940
01:47:41,700 --> 01:47:44,900
ordinances in 2003 to remove the
Washington joining ordinances.

1941
01:47:44,900 --> 01:47:48,600
The instruments has, And, and
just completely, I mean, they

1942
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:52,200
didn't just it wasn't at week,
they completely through the

1943
01:47:52,200 --> 01:47:54,900
ordinance out the window and
disposed of it entirely and then

1944
01:47:54,900 --> 01:47:57,900
replace it with something
entirely different and that

1945
01:47:57,900 --> 01:47:59,600
really upset me.
But what else was?

1946
01:47:59,600 --> 01:48:02,000
I where else was I going to go?
What else was I going to do?

1947
01:48:02,100 --> 01:48:03,500
You know what I mean?
I had a family.

1948
01:48:03,500 --> 01:48:05,400
I had all my connections in the
church.

1949
01:48:05,400 --> 01:48:10,400
The church was my life.
Just because that felt super

1950
01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:13,100
wrong.
Doesn't mean I want to give up

1951
01:48:13,100 --> 01:48:15,300
the good that I did have in my
life.

1952
01:48:15,900 --> 01:48:19,300
And I think the hard part is is
that that's how you that's why

1953
01:48:19,300 --> 01:48:22,800
the frog frogs keep getting
boiled, right?

1954
01:48:22,900 --> 01:48:25,900
It's not just that they didn't
notice the changes little by

1955
01:48:25,900 --> 01:48:29,800
little it's that not none.
Of these changes individually

1956
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:33,400
are enough to risk the other
important and good things in, in

1957
01:48:33,400 --> 01:48:35,400
our lives.
I don't want to risk my

1958
01:48:35,400 --> 01:48:38,800
salvation or exaltation or, or
My standing in the church or my

1959
01:48:38,800 --> 01:48:41,600
friendships or my marriage.
I don't want to risk.

1960
01:48:41,700 --> 01:48:46,000
Any of that, if I'm that guy
just because something's wrong,

1961
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:48,900
I mean, it's got, its got a
reach, some kind of critical

1962
01:48:48,900 --> 01:48:52,500
mass, where it's over-the-top
before you're willing to take

1963
01:48:52,500 --> 01:48:56,500
the risk.
You forgot to already be have

1964
01:48:56,500 --> 01:48:58,700
nothing to lose.
Basically, before you're willing

1965
01:48:58,700 --> 01:49:00,500
to take that kind of risk
usually.

1966
01:49:02,100 --> 01:49:04,200
So what do you do?
What do you do?

1967
01:49:04,300 --> 01:49:08,500
And I think the thing that's
hard is we all just need to

1968
01:49:08,500 --> 01:49:12,500
stand up together the same time
and say, no, I won't do that.

1969
01:49:13,400 --> 01:49:17,000
You know, the next time, there's
the next time they change the

1970
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:19,700
temple ordinance, or even just
the next time you go to the

1971
01:49:19,700 --> 01:49:22,500
temple, you go and talk to the
temple.

1972
01:49:22,500 --> 01:49:28,000
President, you say I'm not
comfortable changing, and

1973
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:30,500
therefore violating my
covenants.

1974
01:49:30,800 --> 01:49:32,900
I made Covenants.
God, and I'm not comfortable

1975
01:49:32,900 --> 01:49:36,200
breaking them for you.
You know, and they're gonna be

1976
01:49:36,200 --> 01:49:38,200
like, oh no, it's nothing like
that.

1977
01:49:38,200 --> 01:49:40,600
Let me, let me find a different
excuse.

1978
01:49:40,600 --> 01:49:42,100
Let me find a different
explanation.

1979
01:49:43,300 --> 01:49:44,500
Of course, they're going to do
that.

1980
01:49:45,200 --> 01:49:47,400
But at some point, if people
don't speak up, they're not even

1981
01:49:47,400 --> 01:49:48,800
going to know that anybody
cares.

1982
01:49:49,400 --> 01:49:53,300
Yeah, you know.
So yeah I and of course when it

1983
01:49:53,300 --> 01:49:57,100
really comes down to it I found
my solution but I know that I

1984
01:49:57,108 --> 01:49:58,900
don't know that my solution is
for everybody.

1985
01:49:59,200 --> 01:50:02,900
My solution was I found.
Another LDS church that actually

1986
01:50:02,900 --> 01:50:06,100
keeps the covenants and does the
temple ordinances It has temples

1987
01:50:06,100 --> 01:50:09,600
and and does all that stuff but
I know there's some people who

1988
01:50:09,600 --> 01:50:13,400
are going to be like look I do
want I do want more of the

1989
01:50:13,400 --> 01:50:18,100
temple but I don't want plural
marriage, you know, or I don't

1990
01:50:18,100 --> 01:50:21,300
want consecration.
I'm not ready to consecrate, you

1991
01:50:21,300 --> 01:50:23,700
know, that's just too scary and
coming into Christchurch.

1992
01:50:23,700 --> 01:50:26,200
The kind of have to take the
whole kit and caboodle Mormonism

1993
01:50:26,500 --> 01:50:28,300
with them if they want to come
into Christ Church.

1994
01:50:30,200 --> 01:50:32,500
So what do they do if they're
not ready to take that big of a

1995
01:50:32,508 --> 01:50:36,500
leap?
People got two people have to

1996
01:50:36,500 --> 01:50:38,100
stop being afraid to speak up
though.

1997
01:50:38,300 --> 01:50:44,500
Yeah, so two things I would say
and I'm always cognizant of

1998
01:50:44,500 --> 01:50:46,900
other people's situations,
right?

1999
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:51,200
I'm a convert to the LDS Church,
The Only memo Mormon on either

2000
01:50:51,200 --> 01:50:53,900
side of my family.
Well CC you've got less to lose,

2001
01:50:53,900 --> 01:50:55,800
you got less to lose, right?
Yeah.

2002
01:50:56,600 --> 01:50:59,300
And I already tore up my
Foundation once when I became a

2003
01:50:59,300 --> 01:51:02,000
more Many of the earliest church
so turn up.

2004
01:51:02,900 --> 01:51:04,400
I didn't even have to pair up
the foundation.

2005
01:51:04,400 --> 01:51:07,000
I just had to take down the
Walls, just had to Dad to just

2006
01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:10,600
had to make like some things up
fix some things up to become a

2007
01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:11,700
fundamentalist, right?
Right.

2008
01:51:11,700 --> 01:51:15,200
But not everybody's in my
position and I try to be

2009
01:51:15,200 --> 01:51:19,400
cognizant that there are people
whose very family.

2010
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:23,000
Identities are wrapped up in, we
attend the LDS church because

2011
01:51:23,700 --> 01:51:26,000
damn it were the Joneses.
And that's what right?

2012
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:28,500
You and, and we're a forever
family.

2013
01:51:28,500 --> 01:51:31,500
Yeah.
And all Of that gets to be put

2014
01:51:31,500 --> 01:51:35,300
in Jeopardy when you've got a
stake president or a bishop and

2015
01:51:35,300 --> 01:51:36,500
that's a leadership role at for
you.

2016
01:51:37,200 --> 01:51:39,800
Who's going to be like, wait,
you questioned something?

2017
01:51:40,300 --> 01:51:44,300
Did you did you listen to the
Mormon Renegade podcast that

2018
01:51:44,300 --> 01:51:47,500
Bishop is going to be like, well
then get out of my word, you

2019
01:51:47,500 --> 01:51:51,700
know, you don't want all of that
right being put at stake, right?

2020
01:51:51,800 --> 01:51:54,900
So I'm always very careful.
And the other thing I'll say is

2021
01:51:56,300 --> 01:52:02,100
If you and this is where I would
say this, you better get really

2022
01:52:02,100 --> 01:52:07,300
damn comfortable in a big, hurry
learning the voice of the spirit

2023
01:52:07,300 --> 01:52:09,000
and learning the direction of
God.

2024
01:52:10,200 --> 01:52:13,200
It may be that the Lord wants
you in the temple.

2025
01:52:13,300 --> 01:52:16,000
I mean once you in the church
the same reason he had me

2026
01:52:16,000 --> 01:52:18,200
observe in the temple.
Maybe you're there to Bear

2027
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:21,200
witness and maybe you have to
sit there until you can't stand

2028
01:52:21,200 --> 01:52:23,700
it anymore and the Lord tells
you to go.

2029
01:52:24,100 --> 01:52:26,900
Yeah.
Maybe maybe the Lord has said to

2030
01:52:26,900 --> 01:52:30,400
you, you better get out of here.
You know, I think the main thing

2031
01:52:30,400 --> 01:52:33,500
is don't throw out the baby with
the bathwater and that's where

2032
01:52:33,500 --> 01:52:35,500
I'm going.
That's where I'm going.

2033
01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:42,900
Do not run into the soft arms.
Arms of somebody named Don

2034
01:52:42,900 --> 01:52:47,700
Julian or something that rhymes
with Don Julian, or yeah.

2035
01:52:47,700 --> 01:52:49,500
Exactly.
Exactly.

2036
01:52:50,700 --> 01:52:53,200
You don't have to become a
bitter anti-mormon know, just

2037
01:52:53,200 --> 01:52:55,000
because there's a problem,
right?

2038
01:52:55,000 --> 01:52:56,900
Right.
To some extent, your faith.

2039
01:52:56,900 --> 01:53:01,300
It can still be true even if the
church isn't true, right?

2040
01:53:01,300 --> 01:53:06,000
And that took me a long time to.
I think to really learn that I

2041
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:09,300
could say, I know the gospel is
true, even if I didn't say no,

2042
01:53:09,300 --> 01:53:10,900
the church is true.
That those two things are

2043
01:53:10,900 --> 01:53:13,100
different.
They are different and that's

2044
01:53:13,100 --> 01:53:16,000
sometimes a hard thing for
somebody who's the

2045
01:53:16,000 --> 01:53:20,500
classically-trained LDS person
is to make that dichotomy that

2046
01:53:20,500 --> 01:53:25,100
there is a difference between
the gospel and the church,

2047
01:53:25,200 --> 01:53:26,600
right?
And so if you're losing your

2048
01:53:26,600 --> 01:53:31,400
faith, honestly, I would say
stop do.

2049
01:53:31,400 --> 01:53:34,500
And then ask yourself this
question, what are you losing

2050
01:53:34,500 --> 01:53:37,000
your faith in?
Because I don't think that this

2051
01:53:37,000 --> 01:53:40,500
is a question that's asked
enough in these equations.

2052
01:53:40,700 --> 01:53:43,700
Are you losing faith in Salt
Lake?

2053
01:53:43,700 --> 01:53:46,700
Are you losing faith in the LDS
church?

2054
01:53:46,700 --> 01:53:49,900
Or are you losing faith in the
gospel?

2055
01:53:49,900 --> 01:53:52,100
In your God?
Because those are two different

2056
01:53:52,100 --> 01:53:55,900
things.
If you're losing your faith in

2057
01:53:55,900 --> 01:53:59,300
this super structure, that was
supposed to administer the

2058
01:53:59,300 --> 01:54:02,200
restored gospel.
There's Hope does this

2059
01:54:02,200 --> 01:54:05,600
definitely hope there's hope
don't just because there's just

2060
01:54:05,600 --> 01:54:07,700
because there's problems in the
church doesn't mean therefore

2061
01:54:07,700 --> 01:54:10,100
that God isn't real.
Right?

2062
01:54:10,100 --> 01:54:12,500
Or that?
The or that the gospel isn't

2063
01:54:12,500 --> 01:54:14,600
true.
I know sometimes sometimes

2064
01:54:14,600 --> 01:54:16,700
people struggle when they
struggle with historical issue.

2065
01:54:16,700 --> 01:54:19,300
Sometimes they'll struggle with,
I think I'm losing my testimony

2066
01:54:19,300 --> 01:54:23,500
of Joseph Smith, right?
And if that's where you're at,

2067
01:54:24,100 --> 01:54:26,400
again, I would say.
Be careful.

2068
01:54:26,400 --> 01:54:28,500
Don't throw away.
The baby with, don't throw out

2069
01:54:28,500 --> 01:54:30,900
the baby with the bathwater.
Let's say you hear something

2070
01:54:30,900 --> 01:54:33,800
terrible.
If you hear something terrible

2071
01:54:33,800 --> 01:54:39,200
about a good friend, There
should at least be a tendency to

2072
01:54:39,200 --> 01:54:42,200
say, wait, wait, wait that.
That's not what that doesn't

2073
01:54:42,200 --> 01:54:45,600
sound like the Joseph Smith.
I know to do some investigation,

2074
01:54:45,600 --> 01:54:47,800
you know what I mean?
Let's at least withhold judgment

2075
01:54:47,800 --> 01:54:51,600
for a while and try to find out
if there isn't a good

2076
01:54:51,600 --> 01:54:55,800
explanation or if there isn't,
you know, don't turn on your

2077
01:54:55,800 --> 01:54:59,200
friends too easily.
Okay, we all need some loyalty,

2078
01:54:59,200 --> 01:55:03,000
we all need some Grace and I
think that there's plenty and

2079
01:55:03,000 --> 01:55:05,500
there's room for that.
Yeah, you know.

2080
01:55:07,900 --> 01:55:11,400
And yet, there are bad things
that happen in the world and

2081
01:55:11,400 --> 01:55:14,500
there's things that are hard to
explain in a lot of cases,

2082
01:55:14,500 --> 01:55:20,000
though, it starts sorting itself
out, if your intentions are

2083
01:55:20,000 --> 01:55:24,000
based on love a love for God, I
love for the gospel of love, for

2084
01:55:24,000 --> 01:55:25,400
your fellow, man.
Yep.

2085
01:55:27,300 --> 01:55:29,600
And there are good answers.
There are really good answers to

2086
01:55:29,600 --> 01:55:36,600
a lot of these things and I just
wish that it wasn't so often

2087
01:55:36,800 --> 01:55:39,900
that I feel like it's the
leaders of the church that are

2088
01:55:39,900 --> 01:55:43,600
causing the Widow to suffer.
The orphan to go hungry.

2089
01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:49,100
The there aren't causing people
to cry alone in the night and

2090
01:55:49,100 --> 01:55:53,900
say God why is it like this?
I have a I mean i-i've known to

2091
01:55:53,907 --> 01:55:57,000
many as stories, many stories of
people.

2092
01:55:57,700 --> 01:56:02,300
Who will say I did everything?
The church told me and I, why is

2093
01:56:02,300 --> 01:56:06,600
my life not working out the way
that I was promised and I'm

2094
01:56:06,600 --> 01:56:10,600
like, because you have to fulfil
the right principles.

2095
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:12,700
It's fill the right covenants,
it's not about being loyal of

2096
01:56:12,708 --> 01:56:15,700
the church.
The church is often giving you a

2097
01:56:15,700 --> 01:56:19,200
Disney sized version.
You know, it's not the original

2098
01:56:19,200 --> 01:56:21,700
fairy tale.
It's not the fairy tale with all

2099
01:56:21,700 --> 01:56:25,800
of the blood and the fear and
the, and the overcoming, that

2100
01:56:25,800 --> 01:56:27,600
might have been in the original
fairy tale.

2101
01:56:27,600 --> 01:56:30,300
It's the Disney version and then
you believe in that Disney

2102
01:56:30,300 --> 01:56:33,500
version, you think?
Don't worry, my Prince Will Come

2103
01:56:33,500 --> 01:56:36,000
and make everything right?
And it'll all be fine.

2104
01:56:36,400 --> 01:56:43,200
And you find yourself, you find
yourself in some dark dark

2105
01:56:43,200 --> 01:56:48,000
situation and you think well,
why is the spirit abandon me?

2106
01:56:48,400 --> 01:56:50,300
You know, I thought the spirit
was supposed to give me warm

2107
01:56:50,300 --> 01:56:52,000
fuzzies all the time, and I
think the spirit was ever

2108
01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:53,900
supposed to convict me of my
sin.

2109
01:56:54,500 --> 01:56:56,700
I didn't think the spirit was
ever supposed to tell me to do

2110
01:56:56,700 --> 01:56:57,900
something.
I'm scary.

2111
01:56:58,300 --> 01:57:00,500
I didn't this didn't think the
spirit was ever, supposed to

2112
01:57:00,500 --> 01:57:04,700
tell me to, to take big risks
and do things.

2113
01:57:04,700 --> 01:57:06,700
I find very uncomfortable and
turns out.

2114
01:57:06,700 --> 01:57:10,100
No, I'm sorry, that's that's,
that's the way it is.

2115
01:57:10,100 --> 01:57:12,300
The spirit will sometimes tell
you things that are challenging

2116
01:57:12,300 --> 01:57:14,300
and hard and maybe you are going
to risk it all and maybe you're

2117
01:57:14,300 --> 01:57:18,100
even going to lose it all.
But the good news is that.

2118
01:57:18,100 --> 01:57:20,700
It's worth it, you know.
I know that that's I know it's

2119
01:57:20,700 --> 01:57:25,000
not in the scriptures and people
will give it a hard time, but

2120
01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:27,600
I've seen like little pictures
of Jesus that will say I never

2121
01:57:27,600 --> 01:57:29,300
said it would be easy.
I only said to be worth it.

2122
01:57:29,300 --> 01:57:34,100
Now that's not in the scriptures
but I think the purpose of that

2123
01:57:34,100 --> 01:57:42,400
saying is is definitely a sound
principle that The gospel isn't

2124
01:57:42,400 --> 01:57:46,400
valuable because of what we get
out of it, it's not worth it

2125
01:57:46,400 --> 01:57:49,900
because we'll always please all
of our neighbors and friends and

2126
01:57:49,900 --> 01:57:53,000
make sure and our family will
surely love everything that we

2127
01:57:53,000 --> 01:57:54,800
do when we do it.
And then we're going to get

2128
01:57:54,800 --> 01:57:58,300
something good out of it.
It's not, it's not transactional

2129
01:57:58,300 --> 01:58:00,600
like that.
The gospel is good and the

2130
01:58:00,600 --> 01:58:06,200
gospel is worth it because it's
the truth because it's real You

2131
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:10,400
can you can sit in front of your
TV all day long and in la-la

2132
01:58:10,400 --> 01:58:12,700
land and fantasize a different
world.

2133
01:58:14,100 --> 01:58:16,800
But sooner or later, you have to
face the world that you live in

2134
01:58:17,300 --> 01:58:22,400
the the skin that you live in
and say, I have to know the

2135
01:58:22,400 --> 01:58:23,900
truth.
I have to live the truth.

2136
01:58:24,100 --> 01:58:28,500
I have to be myself.
I can't pretend forever to be

2137
01:58:28,500 --> 01:58:34,200
something else, right?
And And that's why we have to be

2138
01:58:34,200 --> 01:58:35,700
careful.
Not to throw the baby out with

2139
01:58:35,700 --> 01:58:37,400
the bathwater.
Or in other words, not to lose

2140
01:58:37,400 --> 01:58:40,300
faith in God, just because we're
losing faith in the church or

2141
01:58:40,300 --> 01:58:41,400
even.
If we lose faith.

2142
01:58:41,400 --> 01:58:43,200
In the restoration, we still
shouldn't give up our faith.

2143
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:44,000
In God.
Why?

2144
01:58:45,600 --> 01:58:50,900
Because in the darkest nights of
the Soul, Who we are matters.

2145
01:58:51,800 --> 01:58:57,300
And And being able to look
forward not backward with and I

2146
01:58:57,308 --> 01:59:01,700
have hope saying, look, I don't
know the answer to all things,

2147
01:59:01,700 --> 01:59:03,400
but I know that God loves his
children.

2148
01:59:03,800 --> 01:59:08,200
It's one of my favorite sayings
in the Book of Mormon and Nephi.

2149
01:59:08,200 --> 01:59:09,700
It's like, well, do you know
this?

2150
01:59:09,700 --> 01:59:12,100
Do you know that?
No, I don't know, but I know

2151
01:59:12,100 --> 01:59:17,000
that God loves his children.
I know that there is a dawn

2152
01:59:17,000 --> 01:59:19,800
After the Dark Night of the
Soul, it's out there somewhere.

2153
01:59:21,100 --> 01:59:23,200
You got a hold on.
You got to hold on for that.

2154
01:59:23,200 --> 01:59:26,600
And I believe to be found in
the, in the restored Gospel of

2155
01:59:26,600 --> 01:59:30,500
Jesus Christ is the answer to
thousands of questions

2156
01:59:30,700 --> 01:59:34,900
philosophers have pondered on
for throughout the ages, there

2157
01:59:34,900 --> 01:59:37,900
are truths and insights, there
are their structure.

2158
01:59:37,900 --> 01:59:43,700
There's order waiting to be
discovered that, you know, and

2159
01:59:43,700 --> 01:59:45,000
this is why we don't change the
ordinances.

2160
01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:51,100
There's there's layers of
esoteric, mystical meaning To be

2161
01:59:51,100 --> 01:59:53,900
found that we haven't even
discovered that are still in

2162
01:59:53,900 --> 01:59:56,500
there.
So if you change something, if

2163
01:59:56,500 --> 01:59:58,800
you give up on something, if you
throw that baby out with the

2164
01:59:58,800 --> 02:00:02,100
bathwater, if you decide,
because something in history

2165
02:00:02,100 --> 02:00:05,000
that Joseph Smith, did doesn't
comport with my idea.

2166
02:00:05,600 --> 02:00:07,100
I'm going to throw out
everything Joseph Smith ever

2167
02:00:07,100 --> 02:00:10,400
said, if we get that kind of
attitude, you miss the beauty

2168
02:00:10,700 --> 02:00:14,600
that's to be found in there in
the things that you shouldn't

2169
02:00:14,600 --> 02:00:16,600
have to throw away.
You know?

2170
02:00:17,000 --> 02:00:19,000
Let me let me give you an
example of that.

2171
02:00:19,900 --> 02:00:22,300
And I would say, furthermore
it's going to come back to bite

2172
02:00:22,300 --> 02:00:23,800
you because you're going to
need.

2173
02:00:24,800 --> 02:00:27,800
Whatever it was it was taken out
later, right?

2174
02:00:27,900 --> 02:00:31,000
And I want here, I don't need
these tools in my toolbox.

2175
02:00:31,100 --> 02:00:32,800
I'm going to go to work with
only the tools I need.

2176
02:00:32,900 --> 02:00:35,100
Oh crap, I really need the big
wrench.

2177
02:00:35,200 --> 02:00:37,500
Are you think yourself later?
And it's like too bad you left

2178
02:00:37,500 --> 02:00:39,400
it behind.
I used to have a.

2179
02:00:39,800 --> 02:00:42,300
I used to work for a guy who's
say you can't use it if you

2180
02:00:42,308 --> 02:00:45,200
don't have it, right, right.
If you don't have the tool and

2181
02:00:45,200 --> 02:00:49,100
when you can't use it anymore,
me give you a very gospel

2182
02:00:49,100 --> 02:00:54,600
example of this.
Just this last conference you

2183
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:57,300
had I believe it was running and
I could be wrong.

2184
02:00:58,300 --> 02:01:01,500
Came out and said, look, we know
there's a heavenly mother but we

2185
02:01:01,500 --> 02:01:04,900
don't know a lot about her.
I'm like, why don't you know a

2186
02:01:04,900 --> 02:01:06,900
lot about her?
Wait wait, wait, wait, sorry.

2187
02:01:07,000 --> 02:01:09,700
Let's let's let's go.
I wasn't saying that to you.

2188
02:01:09,700 --> 02:01:13,100
I say to renlund.
Let's go back and let's look at

2189
02:01:13,100 --> 02:01:15,500
this obscure doctrine that you
guys.

2190
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:18,000
Why shouldn't say you guys?
But your predecessors.

2191
02:01:18,100 --> 02:01:19,200
Uh-huh.
Absolutely.

2192
02:01:19,200 --> 02:01:20,300
Hate it.
The atom God.

2193
02:01:20,500 --> 02:01:22,300
Doctrine.
Because if you believe the atom

2194
02:01:22,300 --> 02:01:26,200
God Doctrine you know a whole
hell of a lot about heavenly

2195
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:29,500
mother.
Yes you do and we know a lot

2196
02:01:29,500 --> 02:01:32,000
about the doctrine of heavenly
mother we know a lot about what

2197
02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:35,300
she said and what she you know
and what she did and on top of

2198
02:01:35,300 --> 02:01:39,500
that you've got things like
wisdom speaking to us in

2199
02:01:39,500 --> 02:01:43,600
Proverbs and other places where
we talk about divine feminine

2200
02:01:43,600 --> 02:01:46,500
influences in the Scripture, it
doesn't have to be, literally

2201
02:01:46,500 --> 02:01:50,400
heavenly mother to be something
we do know about the feminine

2202
02:01:50,500 --> 02:01:52,500
Principal.
So you don't have to pretend, we

2203
02:01:52,500 --> 02:01:54,000
don't know anything about
heavenly mother.

2204
02:01:54,200 --> 02:01:59,300
If you know that, the divine
feminine is a thing, all you got

2205
02:01:59,300 --> 02:02:04,700
to do is look at the patterns of
feminine Divine Powers over and

2206
02:02:04,700 --> 02:02:06,800
over again.
And you'll know a lot about

2207
02:02:06,800 --> 02:02:07,900
heavenly mother.
Yeah.

2208
02:02:07,900 --> 02:02:09,700
Does he not know what a temple
matron is?

2209
02:02:09,900 --> 02:02:12,200
Yeah a temple.
Matron is an example of heavenly

2210
02:02:12,200 --> 02:02:15,000
mother.
Let's look at what that role

2211
02:02:15,000 --> 02:02:17,800
originally did.
And let's look at how that works

2212
02:02:17,900 --> 02:02:19,800
but you see by you know, rid of
it.

2213
02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:23,100
Yeah, you needed it down the
road and now, you don't go.

2214
02:02:23,100 --> 02:02:24,800
Now you don't got it.
And so you're saying, well, we

2215
02:02:24,800 --> 02:02:27,400
don't know a lot and it's like,
you know, you used to know a lot

2216
02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:29,100
more than, you know.
Now, yes.

2217
02:02:30,100 --> 02:02:32,600
And who knows had?
You had we not stuck to the

2218
02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:34,200
path.
What kind of revelation we would

2219
02:02:34,200 --> 02:02:38,000
have had today, right on the
subject.

2220
02:02:38,000 --> 02:02:41,900
So, how different would the
Poetry of Carolyn Pearson be?

2221
02:02:42,300 --> 02:02:45,700
If she if she actually didn't
feel like heavenly mother was

2222
02:02:45,700 --> 02:02:47,800
being hidden from her.
Yeah, yeah.

2223
02:02:47,800 --> 02:02:50,200
I know how here's the other
thing.

2224
02:02:50,600 --> 02:02:52,300
I've maintained for quite a
while.

2225
02:02:52,800 --> 02:02:57,700
There may not have been a more
pro-woman religion than

2226
02:02:57,700 --> 02:03:00,500
Mormonism when it first started,
right?

2227
02:03:00,500 --> 02:03:05,200
And you're getting about for the
first time in Christian history

2228
02:03:06,100 --> 02:03:11,000
you can make the case that woman
was equal with man, you had a

2229
02:03:11,000 --> 02:03:14,200
Heavenly Father, you had a
heavenly mother, they had

2230
02:03:14,200 --> 02:03:17,600
different characteristics that
work together to create a better

2231
02:03:17,600 --> 02:03:22,100
hole and you had priests It's
and priestesses who hope to

2232
02:03:22,100 --> 02:03:25,700
become like their Heavenly
parents and all of these amazing

2233
02:03:25,700 --> 02:03:29,400
principles.
And then, you know, it got

2234
02:03:29,400 --> 02:03:32,200
quashed, one of the, that was
one of the things.

2235
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:37,100
I mean, you go back to the
misogynist, 1920s, and you've

2236
02:03:37,100 --> 02:03:41,300
got the church trying to be like
mainstream society and get rid

2237
02:03:41,300 --> 02:03:43,700
of plural marriage.
And what they do, they threw

2238
02:03:43,700 --> 02:03:47,100
away every Doctrine about
femininity at the same time

2239
02:03:47,300 --> 02:03:49,900
because it was, it was all
wrapped up in polygamy for them

2240
02:03:49,900 --> 02:03:53,300
and so they They decided, no, we
can't have priestesses, we can't

2241
02:03:53,600 --> 02:03:55,700
have any of this.
We have to squash it all.

2242
02:03:56,100 --> 02:03:57,600
We have to get rid of the
confinement.

2243
02:03:57,600 --> 02:04:01,700
Blessing, we have to get rid of
all of these beautiful things

2244
02:04:02,200 --> 02:04:05,100
because they just sound, they
smack too much of old Mormonism

2245
02:04:05,100 --> 02:04:07,300
and polygamy.
And we want to be new and

2246
02:04:07,300 --> 02:04:10,900
American.
And so we have to be We have to

2247
02:04:10,900 --> 02:04:13,300
be just as misogynist as the
rest of America, apparently.

2248
02:04:13,400 --> 02:04:16,100
Yep.
And and then, and now

2249
02:04:16,100 --> 02:04:18,600
conservativism just looks like
being even further behind on

2250
02:04:18,600 --> 02:04:20,300
that and even more misogynist,
yep.

2251
02:04:20,900 --> 02:04:27,000
So let me ask you this.
Because this is something that I

2252
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:32,200
think most devout LDS people
really struggle with this is the

2253
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:36,600
thing that keeps them tethered
and it's also the thing I think

2254
02:04:36,600 --> 02:04:42,100
that makes becoming an atheist.
So appealing is because you just

2255
02:04:42,100 --> 02:04:45,800
go dark in, there's nothing else
to worry about, right?

2256
02:04:45,800 --> 02:04:51,100
You just go to sleep without
dreams. this idea that if you

2257
02:04:51,100 --> 02:04:55,800
leave the Elias Church, And
you're no longer sealed.

2258
02:04:57,600 --> 02:05:02,900
To your parents, your
grandparents that you no longer

2259
02:05:02,900 --> 02:05:06,300
get to have your family,
eternity, what would you say to

2260
02:05:06,300 --> 02:05:10,000
them?
Well, you know, this is one of

2261
02:05:10,000 --> 02:05:15,700
my biggest pet peeves.
Well, maybe what do I?

2262
02:05:15,800 --> 02:05:18,400
It makes my blood boil and I
know that I'm on a podcast.

2263
02:05:18,400 --> 02:05:20,500
I don't want to scream because
I'll be screaming at a bunch of

2264
02:05:20,500 --> 02:05:25,900
people's hair pods or something.
But oh my gosh there is no idea

2265
02:05:25,900 --> 02:05:30,400
more vicious than that, it is
false, it's evil.

2266
02:05:30,400 --> 02:05:34,000
I mean it's so evil to try to
tell people you're going to take

2267
02:05:34,000 --> 02:05:36,100
their family away from them that
you're not going to be sealed

2268
02:05:36,100 --> 02:05:37,600
anymore that you're going to
lose.

2269
02:05:37,800 --> 02:05:39,800
Everything.
If you don't stay in the church

2270
02:05:39,800 --> 02:05:44,900
or you don't stay obedient to
our program or you don't pay us

2271
02:05:44,900 --> 02:05:46,900
money.
We're going to take away your

2272
02:05:46,900 --> 02:05:48,500
children.
We're going to take away your

2273
02:05:48,500 --> 02:05:50,700
parents.
Oh my gosh.

2274
02:05:50,700 --> 02:05:52,800
It's just lame.
So evil.

2275
02:05:52,900 --> 02:05:54,500
Can you blame anyone for what I
do?

2276
02:05:54,500 --> 02:05:56,200
Atheist after that though?
Right.

2277
02:05:56,200 --> 02:05:57,500
I can't blame them.
It's course.

2278
02:05:57,500 --> 02:06:00,300
They're pissed.
Isn't a they should be angry.

2279
02:06:00,300 --> 02:06:03,400
Isn't an eternal, an eternity of
non-existence.

2280
02:06:03,400 --> 02:06:07,200
Better than being an eternity of
solitary confinement.

2281
02:06:07,200 --> 02:06:09,200
Yeah.
Yahweh from your loved ones.

2282
02:06:09,300 --> 02:06:12,600
Yeah, it's her its horrific,
it's absolutely horrific and it

2283
02:06:12,600 --> 02:06:18,200
really has infected the way so
many Mormons think because we've

2284
02:06:18,200 --> 02:06:20,500
internalized that lesson, they
don't even have to say it.

2285
02:06:20,500 --> 02:06:24,100
People fear it people fear if
they leave the church, if they

2286
02:06:24,100 --> 02:06:27,400
piss off the wrong Bishop, if
they do whatever that they're

2287
02:06:27,500 --> 02:06:30,600
that, those people, that the
present, the church, even that

2288
02:06:30,600 --> 02:06:35,200
Russell, I'm Nelson has the
power to pull your family away

2289
02:06:35,200 --> 02:06:39,100
from you.
And such a God is a monster.

2290
02:06:39,600 --> 02:06:42,800
Such a God is a monster.
I say this is exactly like

2291
02:06:43,100 --> 02:06:46,900
tearing a baby from its mother's
arms on the slave Auction Block.

2292
02:06:48,100 --> 02:06:53,700
Even that even that isn't half
as evil as the as this

2293
02:06:53,700 --> 02:06:55,500
perspective in the LDS church
that you're going to lose your

2294
02:06:55,500 --> 02:06:59,700
family and it's exactly opposite
to what the scriptures actually

2295
02:06:59,700 --> 02:07:02,100
say.
Joseph Smith actually says in

2296
02:07:02,100 --> 02:07:05,900
section 131 that the same
sociality which exists amongst

2297
02:07:05,900 --> 02:07:07,800
us here.
Will exist amongst us here after

2298
02:07:08,000 --> 02:07:12,500
only a couple of the eternal
glory he didn't say, but only if

2299
02:07:12,500 --> 02:07:16,100
you do everything, we say, no,
the same sociality, which exist

2300
02:07:16,100 --> 02:07:18,500
on this Earth will exist here
after.

2301
02:07:19,100 --> 02:07:24,300
Okay?
Even Monsters of History even

2302
02:07:24,400 --> 02:07:31,600
Mussolini or Stalin or whatever.
Probably had friends or family

2303
02:07:31,600 --> 02:07:34,100
or somebody they wanted to see
and they still got to say hello

2304
02:07:34,100 --> 02:07:36,900
to them.
Okay, and even in the next

2305
02:07:36,900 --> 02:07:40,800
world, even the monsters of
History will not be in solitary

2306
02:07:40,800 --> 02:07:43,900
confinement.
That doesn't mean you have to

2307
02:07:43,900 --> 02:07:45,000
put up with them.
Okay.

2308
02:07:45,000 --> 02:07:46,700
I'm not friends with any of
these people.

2309
02:07:47,500 --> 02:07:49,700
I'm not friends with any of
these people but if you think

2310
02:07:49,700 --> 02:07:53,500
you don't get to go home for
Christmas dinner, Because you

2311
02:07:53,500 --> 02:08:00,100
didn't pay your tithing.
Then that is a false fear that

2312
02:08:00,100 --> 02:08:04,400
the church has been manipulating
using against people to

2313
02:08:04,400 --> 02:08:08,100
manipulate their behavior and it
is not scriptural the same

2314
02:08:08,100 --> 02:08:10,800
sociology which exists amongst
us here will exist amongst us

2315
02:08:10,800 --> 02:08:13,600
here.
After that means not that

2316
02:08:13,600 --> 02:08:16,200
families can be for together
forever.

2317
02:08:16,500 --> 02:08:18,800
It's that families will be
together forever.

2318
02:08:19,100 --> 02:08:22,700
They will, you know you might
be, you might even be horrific

2319
02:08:22,700 --> 02:08:25,600
lie, extranged estranged, or a
family member that happens.

2320
02:08:27,100 --> 02:08:31,800
But there's still hope, right?
That that you could reconcile.

2321
02:08:33,600 --> 02:08:39,800
I mention the earlier an earlier
episode of this podcast that I

2322
02:08:39,800 --> 02:08:48,400
am I'm deeply and and you know
with trauma very estranged from

2323
02:08:48,400 --> 02:08:55,100
one of my family members for my
brother. and, and yet, I

2324
02:08:55,100 --> 02:08:58,900
believe.
That in the eternities, there's

2325
02:08:58,900 --> 02:09:01,500
always a chance for repentance
somewhere.

2326
02:09:01,800 --> 02:09:03,800
Isn't that?
The kind of the whole promise of

2327
02:09:03,808 --> 02:09:05,300
the Resurrection?
Is that the whole promise of

2328
02:09:05,300 --> 02:09:08,300
Jesus Christ?
I don't want to associate with

2329
02:09:08,300 --> 02:09:11,900
my brother right now.
I have no hope or even interest

2330
02:09:11,900 --> 02:09:15,800
in being this company right now,
but I do have some hope that in

2331
02:09:15,800 --> 02:09:17,700
the Eternal Worlds are in the
resurrection.

2332
02:09:18,000 --> 02:09:20,000
Whatever is wrong with his
criminally?

2333
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:26,000
Insane mind, maybe it can mend.
Maybe it can and I don't have to

2334
02:09:26,000 --> 02:09:29,700
be in his presence, but I could
certainly go and be with him.

2335
02:09:29,700 --> 02:09:33,500
He could be with me regardless
of our faith regardless of how

2336
02:09:33,500 --> 02:09:37,000
dark and evil he goes.
He can go into the telestial

2337
02:09:37,000 --> 02:09:40,200
kingdom but that doesn't mean
that I'd be separated from him,

2338
02:09:40,200 --> 02:09:42,500
even if I was in the Celestial
Kingdom, I don't see this as a

2339
02:09:42,500 --> 02:09:45,300
geographic separation.
It's not a different world, it's

2340
02:09:45,300 --> 02:09:47,700
different.
It's a different type of Glory

2341
02:09:48,000 --> 02:09:50,800
certainly print set of
privileges it.

2342
02:09:50,800 --> 02:09:51,500
Right?
It's a different.

2343
02:09:51,500 --> 02:09:54,200
It's a different lifestyle.
Right, right?

2344
02:09:54,200 --> 02:09:56,800
But, but it doesn't mean that
you're not family anymore.

2345
02:09:56,800 --> 02:09:58,500
It doesn't mean you're going to
lose them forever.

2346
02:09:58,900 --> 02:10:01,700
And so yeah, I guess that's one
of the other messages I have to

2347
02:10:01,700 --> 02:10:05,700
say to anybody.
In the LDS church who goes.

2348
02:10:06,200 --> 02:10:07,500
I know some things aren't quite
right.

2349
02:10:07,500 --> 02:10:09,900
I'm not sure if those guys, the
moment ago podcaster.

2350
02:10:10,200 --> 02:10:12,600
Correct about everything.
They say is wrong, but I do know

2351
02:10:12,600 --> 02:10:15,000
that some things aren't right.
But I'm not willing to risk.

2352
02:10:15,000 --> 02:10:19,400
What I've got.
You know, I'd say look you can't

2353
02:10:19,400 --> 02:10:20,900
have fear and faith at the same
time.

2354
02:10:22,600 --> 02:10:24,900
Don't Be Afraid.
Don't be afraid.

2355
02:10:24,900 --> 02:10:28,100
I mean there is peace in the
truth.

2356
02:10:29,200 --> 02:10:34,400
There's firmness in the truth.
There is safety in the truth so

2357
02:10:34,400 --> 02:10:37,100
don't be afraid.
Don't be afraid that they're

2358
02:10:37,100 --> 02:10:41,500
going to Take your family away.
They can't, they can't do it.

2359
02:10:41,800 --> 02:10:43,600
Don't be afraid that they're
going to.

2360
02:10:46,400 --> 02:10:49,700
They're going to be able to
really hurt you.

2361
02:10:49,800 --> 02:10:53,000
They can't the church isn't
going to hurt anybody.

2362
02:10:53,400 --> 02:10:55,200
Yes, you're going to, you're
going to family members that are

2363
02:10:55,200 --> 02:10:57,500
gonna be upset.
Some of them might try to be

2364
02:10:57,508 --> 02:10:59,600
estranged from you.
Often times.

2365
02:10:59,600 --> 02:11:01,900
You're going to reconcile my own
mother.

2366
02:11:02,300 --> 02:11:06,400
When I when I came in to
Christchurch, my own mother said

2367
02:11:06,400 --> 02:11:09,200
some very very hurtful things to
me and I haven't really fully

2368
02:11:09,200 --> 02:11:15,000
forgiven her butt.
I think what happened was is

2369
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:21,500
once she realized that she had
disowned her own son, and that

2370
02:11:21,500 --> 02:11:25,200
we were truly estranged, she
fairly quickly realized that,

2371
02:11:25,200 --> 02:11:26,500
that wasn't what she really
wanted.

2372
02:11:26,500 --> 02:11:29,300
What she wanted, was to be able
to control my behavior.

2373
02:11:29,500 --> 02:11:32,700
So that I would do what she
wanted, you know, and when she

2374
02:11:32,700 --> 02:11:37,400
realized know Ben is firm in his
convictions, Benjamin's not

2375
02:11:37,400 --> 02:11:41,100
going to change just because I'm
no matter what cruel thing I say

2376
02:11:41,100 --> 02:11:45,000
or do he's not going to change.
Do I really want to know?

2377
02:11:45,000 --> 02:11:49,800
Not see my son anymore?
She softened, sometimes it takes

2378
02:11:49,800 --> 02:11:51,500
a while.
Yeah, get that.

2379
02:11:52,000 --> 02:11:54,500
But like you just you can't live
in that kind of fear.

2380
02:11:54,500 --> 02:11:57,200
You have to, you have to stand
for the truth.

2381
02:11:57,200 --> 02:11:58,700
Because what else can you stand
for?

2382
02:11:59,600 --> 02:12:04,200
Well, if you don't stand on the
truth, You're not standing on

2383
02:12:04,200 --> 02:12:07,600
anything you're standing on
shifting Sands, you know, and

2384
02:12:07,600 --> 02:12:12,600
that's the reason I asked the
question Ben is because that is

2385
02:12:12,600 --> 02:12:15,400
the ultimate Punk card that they
pull, right?

2386
02:12:15,500 --> 02:12:18,400
It is kind of an, you're gonna
lose your whole family man or

2387
02:12:18,400 --> 02:12:21,900
you have your own family saying
you're breaking Heaven, is

2388
02:12:21,900 --> 02:12:24,600
you're destroying my heaven.
You're destroying my heaven

2389
02:12:24,600 --> 02:12:28,500
right now by what you're doing,
because you're not kowtowing

2390
02:12:28,900 --> 02:12:31,000
Towing, the line.
The way I expect you to, but

2391
02:12:31,000 --> 02:12:33,100
you're right.
It is Insidious because it's not

2392
02:12:33,300 --> 02:12:38,600
Scripture says, right and it's
just not true. 131 goes, it's

2393
02:12:38,600 --> 02:12:43,700
super clear it with your family.
You will, you will see your

2394
02:12:43,700 --> 02:12:47,300
family now, and I went to, I
went to a counselor, I went to a

2395
02:12:47,300 --> 02:12:51,600
psychiatrist, I was really upset
about this time, the with these

2396
02:12:51,600 --> 02:12:56,200
changes in my own life.
And I was telling him what was

2397
02:12:56,200 --> 02:13:00,000
going on, and how worried I was.
And I told him something.

2398
02:13:00,000 --> 02:13:04,200
My Bishop said to me and the
psychiatrist was a furious and I

2399
02:13:04,208 --> 02:13:07,100
was surprised because I saw it
from the mainstream earliest

2400
02:13:07,100 --> 02:13:07,800
point of view.
Yeah.

2401
02:13:07,800 --> 02:13:10,500
And he was non-mormon, he was a
non-mormon psychiatrist.

2402
02:13:10,800 --> 02:13:15,200
And so I went to him and I was
like, well, but I don't want to

2403
02:13:15,200 --> 02:13:17,800
lose everything.
I'm telling this guy, I'm

2404
02:13:17,800 --> 02:13:20,600
feeling like I'm on the edge
because I'm losing my faith in

2405
02:13:20,600 --> 02:13:22,200
the church.
And I'm seeing that these things

2406
02:13:22,200 --> 02:13:24,300
are wrong in the church.
And I'm afraid he could lose

2407
02:13:24,300 --> 02:13:26,300
everything and he's like, well,
what would you lose?

2408
02:13:26,500 --> 02:13:29,200
What would you really lose?
And I'm like, well, I could lose

2409
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:30,700
my family.
I could lose all kinds of things

2410
02:13:31,000 --> 02:13:33,100
and he's like, well that's not
true.

2411
02:13:33,200 --> 02:13:36,500
You he's like from what I'm when
I'm hearing from you.

2412
02:13:36,500 --> 02:13:42,000
You haven't left your faith.
They're leaving you and I was

2413
02:13:42,000 --> 02:13:45,400
like what he's like, yeah, you
know you're telling me that you

2414
02:13:45,400 --> 02:13:48,400
just want to hold fast to what
you believe in and what you've

2415
02:13:48,400 --> 02:13:50,800
committed to and what you know
what you made.

2416
02:13:50,800 --> 02:13:53,400
These promises really just
promises my temple covenants

2417
02:13:53,400 --> 02:13:55,500
essentially and I was like,
you're trying to keep these

2418
02:13:55,500 --> 02:14:00,200
promises.
Why is there the ones leaving

2419
02:14:00,200 --> 02:14:01,800
then?
Don't, don't internalize that.

2420
02:14:01,800 --> 02:14:04,800
Don't blame yourself, they're
the ones leaving you, you're not

2421
02:14:04,800 --> 02:14:08,100
leaving them, that blew my mind.
And then the next thing was, as

2422
02:14:08,100 --> 02:14:10,300
I told him one of things, my
Bishop had said to me, was he

2423
02:14:10,300 --> 02:14:13,300
said, brother Benjamin Sherwood,
beautiful family.

2424
02:14:13,300 --> 02:14:18,200
Sure would be a shame if you
lost them over this and I had

2425
02:14:19,000 --> 02:14:20,400
basically hinted.
He's like well what if this

2426
02:14:20,400 --> 02:14:24,700
bishop say to you and I tell the
psychiatrist what he said and

2427
02:14:24,700 --> 02:14:26,700
that's basically it.
It's almost word for word.

2428
02:14:26,900 --> 02:14:31,400
And the psychiatrist just lost
his cool.

2429
02:14:31,700 --> 02:14:34,100
He was like, I don't know what
you've been involved in, but

2430
02:14:34,100 --> 02:14:37,200
that is evil.
That is a buse that is wrong.

2431
02:14:37,200 --> 02:14:40,300
Do not believe that.
Man, that is a threat.

2432
02:14:40,300 --> 02:14:42,300
That is a threat.
You should call the police over.

2433
02:14:43,000 --> 02:14:44,900
That man is threatening your
family.

2434
02:14:45,000 --> 02:14:46,800
It is not safe.
It is not okay.

2435
02:14:46,800 --> 02:14:49,600
To associate people with people
who say stuff like that.

2436
02:14:49,600 --> 02:14:52,200
That is not.
That's that's organized.

2437
02:14:52,200 --> 02:14:54,000
Crime levels of evil.
Oh yeah.

2438
02:14:54,200 --> 02:14:57,600
When okay when you said with
that Bishop said I said I

2439
02:14:57,600 --> 02:15:01,600
thought if it sounds like a
mafia thing doesn't you know

2440
02:15:01,600 --> 02:15:04,100
it's just say if it had an
Italian accent I'd be like was

2441
02:15:04,100 --> 02:15:06,100
that the Godfather?
Was that in The Godfather,

2442
02:15:06,100 --> 02:15:08,000
right?
It's like oh my gosh.

2443
02:15:08,100 --> 02:15:12,500
You know, I mean but no that's
exactly what he said and but it

2444
02:15:12,500 --> 02:15:15,900
took a while for me to be far
enough on the outside of it sure

2445
02:15:16,100 --> 02:15:18,900
to recognize that that's what it
was but that's really what it

2446
02:15:18,900 --> 02:15:21,200
is.
And so we look you got to be

2447
02:15:21,200 --> 02:15:25,100
bold and you got to say look the
truth is the truth.

2448
02:15:25,200 --> 02:15:29,400
I'm going to stand on principle
Even if the church is wrong.

2449
02:15:29,800 --> 02:15:32,300
Yeah.
Well and I think it helps to

2450
02:15:32,300 --> 02:15:36,000
realize God never said that
right?

2451
02:15:36,000 --> 02:15:39,300
God never said it's God.
God never said in his Italian

2452
02:15:39,300 --> 02:15:43,500
accent you know you got a really
nice family here but my cousin

2453
02:15:43,500 --> 02:15:46,600
Rudy yeah you know he's a really
violent man.

2454
02:15:46,600 --> 02:15:49,800
That's right you know and if you
don't do what I want it be real

2455
02:15:49,800 --> 02:15:51,200
shame.
If something terrible happened

2456
02:15:51,200 --> 02:15:55,200
to your family you know if
someone makes an odd sound like

2457
02:15:55,200 --> 02:15:57,100
Joe Pesci from Goodfellas,
right?

2458
02:15:57,100 --> 02:15:58,700
And you got it.
Protection money.

2459
02:15:58,800 --> 02:16:00,900
Then there's a problem.
There's a problem right?

2460
02:16:01,000 --> 02:16:03,700
And the scriptures are clear.
You're going to have your family

2461
02:16:03,700 --> 02:16:08,500
no matter what.
Yeah that's that's as as good as

2462
02:16:08,700 --> 02:16:12,800
the resurrection itself.
The thing the sealing ordinances

2463
02:16:12,800 --> 02:16:17,400
do for you is that gives you the
opportunity to attain to hire

2464
02:16:17,400 --> 02:16:20,100
Privileges and a higher
Resurrection.

2465
02:16:20,200 --> 02:16:23,800
Mmm, that's it, not geographical
separation.

2466
02:16:24,000 --> 02:16:29,000
And once those, once you can
make that I promise Is the

2467
02:16:29,008 --> 02:16:31,400
church.
Ain't got nothing right?

2468
02:16:31,500 --> 02:16:34,400
And you know actually I was
really, really relieved actually

2469
02:16:34,400 --> 02:16:36,400
with my membership in the church
ended.

2470
02:16:36,700 --> 02:16:39,900
I mean, I was I was trying to
live in both ways for a long

2471
02:16:39,900 --> 02:16:43,600
time and I wasn't really doing
anything to upset the church or

2472
02:16:43,600 --> 02:16:47,000
at least had didn't.
I was trying not to cry but then

2473
02:16:47,000 --> 02:16:51,200
I realized like you, when I
started a podcast I mean I

2474
02:16:51,200 --> 02:16:52,700
didn't even go.
I know, I ain't got some

2475
02:16:52,700 --> 02:16:54,900
podcasts.
But but yeah.

2476
02:16:54,900 --> 02:16:58,500
So I, you know, so long time, I
just tried to just Keep keep it

2477
02:16:58,500 --> 02:17:00,700
on the down-low, keep it cool.
Everybody's fine.

2478
02:17:00,700 --> 02:17:05,400
It's all good.
But the thing I didn't expect is

2479
02:17:05,400 --> 02:17:10,000
that when I was no longer a
member of the church, I was

2480
02:17:10,000 --> 02:17:11,100
relieved.
Yeah.

2481
02:17:11,100 --> 02:17:14,900
Because I knew that they'd
already done their worst.

2482
02:17:14,900 --> 02:17:16,900
Yep.
They cannot burn me at the stake

2483
02:17:16,900 --> 02:17:19,500
as a heretic, right?
They wouldn't kill me.

2484
02:17:20,299 --> 02:17:23,500
The worst they could do is say,
well, you're not a member

2485
02:17:23,500 --> 02:17:25,700
anymore, and I was like,
actually, that's kind of a

2486
02:17:25,700 --> 02:17:29,299
relief because you're going to
stop threatening me now, aren't

2487
02:17:29,299 --> 02:17:30,799
you?
And they're like, well yeah,

2488
02:17:30,799 --> 02:17:33,600
we've already done our worst and
I'm like, well good because I

2489
02:17:33,600 --> 02:17:36,400
don't think your worst has taken
my priesthood and I don't think

2490
02:17:36,400 --> 02:17:39,000
your worst has taken my family
and I don't think your worst is

2491
02:17:39,000 --> 02:17:43,200
going to take me away from God.
All I've done is try to keep my

2492
02:17:43,200 --> 02:17:48,500
covenants, and if you don't like
that, then that's, you're the

2493
02:17:48,500 --> 02:17:51,400
one who's got to answer to God
for for that not being.

2494
02:17:52,100 --> 02:17:54,799
I'm not that worried.
Yeah, it was kind of a relief.

2495
02:17:54,900 --> 02:17:57,700
Yep.
So we've been at this now.

2496
02:17:57,700 --> 02:18:01,299
Two hours and 15 minutes.
Oh, goodness gracious.

2497
02:18:01,799 --> 02:18:04,200
I'm gonna, I'm gonna make all
the records for the longest

2498
02:18:04,200 --> 02:18:06,500
podcast when I'm with you.
I'm Josh's like Cena.

2499
02:18:06,500 --> 02:18:09,500
Has you beat by a violent now?
Well, well yeah, especially

2500
02:18:09,500 --> 02:18:10,500
well.
You had to break those up into a

2501
02:18:10,508 --> 02:18:13,500
few different episodes, too.
Well no his very first one we

2502
02:18:13,500 --> 02:18:16,400
well yeah, I was like four hours
at most, a half hour and a half

2503
02:18:16,400 --> 02:18:18,700
hours.
Yeah, seem like it but it went

2504
02:18:18,700 --> 02:18:20,500
quick.
Yeah, here's what I'm going to

2505
02:18:20,508 --> 02:18:22,500
sow.
I'll save my file and I always

2506
02:18:22,500 --> 02:18:23,900
like to turn it back over to
you.

2507
02:18:24,900 --> 02:18:28,500
If you're listening to this and
you're in the mainstream LDS

2508
02:18:28,500 --> 02:18:31,100
church and you know, something
is wrong.

2509
02:18:31,600 --> 02:18:34,500
The first thing I would say is
Don't Panic.

2510
02:18:35,100 --> 02:18:39,400
Breathe just breathe.
Just just sit with it for a

2511
02:18:39,400 --> 02:18:41,500
minute and understand his good
advice.

2512
02:18:41,700 --> 02:18:45,000
The world's not ending.
No, the world is not and it's

2513
02:18:45,000 --> 02:18:47,200
going to feel like the world is
ending possibly if you're having

2514
02:18:47,200 --> 02:18:51,299
a real Faith Christ, right.
But it's not, it's not ending to

2515
02:18:51,600 --> 02:18:56,100
do not make a rash decision, do
not make a rash decision to

2516
02:18:56,100 --> 02:19:01,000
leave the LDS church do not make
a rash decision to run into the

2517
02:19:01,200 --> 02:19:06,600
waiting Arms of an apostate.
Do not make a rash decision to

2518
02:19:06,600 --> 02:19:09,900
go join a fundamentalist group
or to go out on your own, sit

2519
02:19:09,900 --> 02:19:12,700
with it for a minute.
Just ponder.

2520
02:19:12,700 --> 02:19:18,400
It next reach out to somebody,
if you're in that space, reach

2521
02:19:18,400 --> 02:19:21,100
out to me.
I always put my email address

2522
02:19:21,100 --> 02:19:23,400
here.
And look, here's the other thing

2523
02:19:23,400 --> 02:19:28,000
I'm going to say, you don't want
to go where I go to worship.

2524
02:19:28,100 --> 02:19:30,400
Cool, I'm fine with that.
Of course, you know, that's

2525
02:19:30,400 --> 02:19:33,000
often in my house and so you're
also welcome to come there.

2526
02:19:33,000 --> 02:19:35,700
And we will feed your spirit and
will feed your body.

2527
02:19:35,900 --> 02:19:37,900
Real have a nice meal.
We had a great meal today.

2528
02:19:37,900 --> 02:19:41,600
Yep.
But if that's not, Where you

2529
02:19:41,608 --> 02:19:44,700
want to be, I'm good with that
but still, please don't throw

2530
02:19:44,700 --> 02:19:48,299
the gospel out.
Please do not do that.

2531
02:19:48,400 --> 02:19:50,400
Do not throw the baby out with
the bathwater.

2532
02:19:51,300 --> 02:19:54,600
There are people that I can put
you in touch with where you can

2533
02:19:54,600 --> 02:19:58,100
find a home.
I can promise that whether

2534
02:19:58,100 --> 02:20:02,700
that's at the same place, I
attend whether that is as an

2535
02:20:02,700 --> 02:20:06,400
independent, whether that is a
different Group whatever.

2536
02:20:07,200 --> 02:20:11,000
Don't throw the baby out with
the bathwater and know that that

2537
02:20:11,700 --> 02:20:14,600
Not only does God love you,
which is should you should take

2538
02:20:14,800 --> 02:20:20,400
massive massive comfort in.
There are other people out there

2539
02:20:20,600 --> 02:20:24,700
that have walked exactly where
you have walked and can help get

2540
02:20:24,700 --> 02:20:28,800
you through there.
If not myself, I can put you in

2541
02:20:28,800 --> 02:20:30,900
touch with someone that yet does
because trust me.

2542
02:20:31,000 --> 02:20:32,600
I know I can be grading an
annoying.

2543
02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:34,600
So I'm willing to point you in
the direction of someone who's

2544
02:20:34,600 --> 02:20:39,200
less grading an annoying but
please don't throw the baby out

2545
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:42,400
with the bathwater and reach.
Reach out for help.

2546
02:20:42,400 --> 02:20:50,700
Don't panic Ben.
I guess I'll end with I'll end

2547
02:20:50,700 --> 02:20:53,900
with you're really going One
Direction or the other.

2548
02:20:54,300 --> 02:20:57,000
Are you adding light to the
coming lights?

2549
02:20:57,000 --> 02:21:00,400
Are you adding knowledge to your
knowledge?

2550
02:21:00,800 --> 02:21:05,000
Are you losing something?
Usually people will often feel

2551
02:21:05,000 --> 02:21:08,200
like they're losing something
for example.

2552
02:21:08,200 --> 02:21:10,600
Like you talked about tonight
about the destruction Salt Lake

2553
02:21:10,600 --> 02:21:15,000
Temple, it's a loss sometimes
you have to sit with that loss,

2554
02:21:16,400 --> 02:21:21,300
but in the end you can also
really be gaining something of

2555
02:21:21,300 --> 02:21:28,400
Great Value and what that could
be is the truth the way things

2556
02:21:28,400 --> 02:21:32,400
really are.
The way things are going to be.

2557
02:21:33,900 --> 02:21:38,400
To me, it's really sad to think
about the destruction and loss

2558
02:21:38,400 --> 02:21:40,700
of the temples, the destruction
loss of the ordinances.

2559
02:21:41,100 --> 02:21:44,500
It's really sad to me to think
about how fast we've come to

2560
02:21:44,500 --> 02:21:48,400
getting away from the masculine
and The Feminine to the point

2561
02:21:48,400 --> 02:21:51,900
that we don't even have these
these great archetypes, of the

2562
02:21:51,900 --> 02:21:53,400
father and the mother.
What does that even going to

2563
02:21:53,400 --> 02:21:56,100
mean in religion?
In the coming days to have a

2564
02:21:56,108 --> 02:21:57,800
heavenly father, to have a
heavenly mother.

2565
02:21:58,100 --> 02:22:00,600
If we don't even have fathers
and mothers anymore, if we lose

2566
02:22:00,600 --> 02:22:05,200
our sense of, you know, of these
Grand Forms of the creation of

2567
02:22:05,200 --> 02:22:08,600
life, right?
And so it feels like a lot to

2568
02:22:08,600 --> 02:22:12,400
lose.
When we see that the direction

2569
02:22:12,400 --> 02:22:17,200
that the world may seem like
it's headed in, The church may

2570
02:22:17,200 --> 02:22:22,100
seem like it's headed in. but we
gained something of greater

2571
02:22:22,100 --> 02:22:28,200
value even in these darkest
moments, And that is I think an

2572
02:22:28,208 --> 02:22:30,500
appreciation for that which is
truly Eternal.

2573
02:22:31,400 --> 02:22:33,200
You know, King Solomon's Temple
is gone.

2574
02:22:34,000 --> 02:22:37,900
Now, the Salt Lake Temple is
next the temples always get

2575
02:22:37,900 --> 02:22:42,400
destroyed pieces of our history
pieces of who we think we are

2576
02:22:42,500 --> 02:22:44,600
stuff that we think we hold
really sacred.

2577
02:22:45,300 --> 02:22:47,200
Sometimes it does come in,
sometimes it does go.

2578
02:22:47,200 --> 02:22:51,000
Sometimes these things die in us
and they die in our culture in

2579
02:22:51,000 --> 02:22:56,200
our society, but something else
can still survive.

2580
02:22:56,500 --> 02:23:01,600
The eternal flame.
In your soul cannot be

2581
02:23:01,600 --> 02:23:07,900
extinguished by that, right?
Even though I feel like the Salt

2582
02:23:07,900 --> 02:23:11,800
Lake Temple is gone now.
I know that there's other

2583
02:23:11,800 --> 02:23:17,600
temples not as Grand, maybe not
as big but there are still other

2584
02:23:17,600 --> 02:23:20,700
temples out in the desert and
even if there were no other

2585
02:23:20,700 --> 02:23:23,700
temples out in the desert,
there's still the Temple of your

2586
02:23:23,700 --> 02:23:29,800
own heart.
And that can never be destroyed

2587
02:23:30,200 --> 02:23:33,800
that can never be changed.
If you hold fast to that which

2588
02:23:33,800 --> 02:23:38,100
you know, is true.
How can never stop you?

2589
02:23:38,800 --> 02:23:43,300
They can tear down the temple
and the Lord will rebuild it.

2590
02:23:43,600 --> 02:23:46,500
This is what Jesus was saying
when he stood in the temple and

2591
02:23:46,500 --> 02:23:50,200
he said, even if you tear down
this Temple, the Lord will can

2592
02:23:50,200 --> 02:23:51,800
build it back again, in three
days.

2593
02:23:53,900 --> 02:23:56,700
Because greater than the
building.

2594
02:23:57,900 --> 02:24:04,800
Was the Christ, the son of God
and even in Killing Jesus

2595
02:24:04,800 --> 02:24:06,600
Christ, the devil couldn't beat
him.

2596
02:24:08,200 --> 02:24:11,100
Because he came alive again and
it's the same thing with our

2597
02:24:11,100 --> 02:24:14,100
faith.
When you go into the crucifixion

2598
02:24:14,100 --> 02:24:17,500
of your faith, when you're going
to the tomb of your faith and

2599
02:24:17,500 --> 02:24:24,100
you think everything is lost.
The resurrection is what's next?

2600
02:24:24,400 --> 02:24:26,900
It's still there.
If you just have faith, if you

2601
02:24:27,200 --> 02:24:30,400
if you cry out like Joseph Smith
did in the in the sacred grove,

2602
02:24:30,600 --> 02:24:34,600
you know, we often forget we
say, what was the first Vision

2603
02:24:34,600 --> 02:24:36,600
will say?
It was some Joseph Smith, saw

2604
02:24:36,700 --> 02:24:39,300
the father, and the son, he saw
somebody else.

2605
02:24:39,300 --> 02:24:44,900
First, he saw the devil first
before he saw the light, he saw

2606
02:24:44,900 --> 02:24:48,200
the darkness, and the Darkness
was so powerful.

2607
02:24:48,200 --> 02:24:52,200
He thought it would swallow him
up, that he would be Not just

2608
02:24:52,200 --> 02:24:53,600
dead.
He would be destroyed and he

2609
02:24:53,600 --> 02:24:55,600
would be consumed body and
spirit.

2610
02:24:57,100 --> 02:25:00,000
And only then in the darkness
when he cried out to God, did he

2611
02:25:00,000 --> 02:25:03,800
see the pillar of light, right?
And so I guess that's the thing

2612
02:25:04,800 --> 02:25:09,300
we think that when we are in
situation of Doubt or in a faith

2613
02:25:09,300 --> 02:25:12,000
crisis, we think this is the
end.

2614
02:25:13,100 --> 02:25:16,000
If only you could see that it's
the beginning, it's the

2615
02:25:16,000 --> 02:25:20,200
essential beginning of
everything, is to be in a faith

2616
02:25:20,200 --> 02:25:22,400
crisis.
That is where you find your

2617
02:25:22,400 --> 02:25:25,100
faith.
That's where you realize that

2618
02:25:25,100 --> 02:25:27,400
what you had before wasn't real
faith, it was just belief.

2619
02:25:27,700 --> 02:25:30,700
And if you want real power, you
have to stand up for what is,

2620
02:25:30,700 --> 02:25:32,400
right?
No matter what the consequences

2621
02:25:32,400 --> 02:25:34,200
are, even if it's swallows your
whole soul.

2622
02:25:35,900 --> 02:25:37,100
And you know what?
You're going to find on the

2623
02:25:37,108 --> 02:25:41,200
other end of it like light,
you're going to find that pillar

2624
02:25:41,200 --> 02:25:44,800
of light extended from Heaven to
you even if you're the last man

2625
02:25:44,800 --> 02:25:49,300
or woman on earth who seeks God.
The light of God is still going

2626
02:25:49,300 --> 02:25:52,000
to reach you and your Darkness
if you will just let him in.

2627
02:25:52,800 --> 02:25:58,600
And so that's my testimony even
even with the Salt Lake Temple

2628
02:25:58,600 --> 02:26:03,800
gone I mourn and I mourn for
what's lost.

2629
02:26:04,600 --> 02:26:09,800
But I still have hope because
every temple in history has been

2630
02:26:09,800 --> 02:26:12,300
torn down and yet the gospel
Still Remains.

2631
02:26:12,700 --> 02:26:16,400
Yep.
And so we just have to keep on

2632
02:26:16,400 --> 02:26:21,900
keeping on If we're really in
the winding up seats, which I

2633
02:26:21,900 --> 02:26:26,600
believe we are.
There's going to be weeping.

2634
02:26:27,200 --> 02:26:33,300
Yeah, but if there's one thing
that scripture teaches me, it's

2635
02:26:33,300 --> 02:26:37,500
that our father, loves a
dramatic ending, right?

2636
02:26:37,500 --> 02:26:40,000
The dramatic entrance right
there, right?

2637
02:26:41,000 --> 02:26:44,600
And, and when it seems its
darkest when it seems All Is

2638
02:26:44,600 --> 02:26:47,700
Lost.
Put yourself in a place where

2639
02:26:47,700 --> 02:26:52,300
you can expect miracles.
Yeah, because in that moment

2640
02:26:52,300 --> 02:26:54,400
Miracles will happen.
Yeah.

2641
02:26:55,100 --> 02:26:58,100
And God will then make bear his
arm in the eyes of all the

2642
02:26:58,108 --> 02:26:59,300
nations.
It says, right?

2643
02:26:59,300 --> 02:27:02,500
Yep.
So yeah, the last days might

2644
02:27:02,500 --> 02:27:05,800
seem scary.
These things might seem rough

2645
02:27:05,800 --> 02:27:08,000
and they are and it's okay to
cry about it.

2646
02:27:08,500 --> 02:27:13,000
It really is grown men.
Should weep over such things and

2647
02:27:13,000 --> 02:27:18,100
yet it's going to be okay.
Yeah, the Salt Lake Temple may

2648
02:27:18,100 --> 02:27:21,000
have been torn down.
We may have temporarily gotten a

2649
02:27:21,000 --> 02:27:23,200
stay on tearing down the Manti
Temple.

2650
02:27:23,400 --> 02:27:27,400
There's a lot of activism for
that I was somewhat involved in

2651
02:27:27,400 --> 02:27:32,000
that activism but you know
what's really going to matter is

2652
02:27:32,000 --> 02:27:34,200
that the temple, the New
Jerusalem will be built.

2653
02:27:35,200 --> 02:27:37,700
Yeah, that's that's what gives
me.

2654
02:27:37,700 --> 02:27:40,100
Hope it will be built.
It's not there yet, but the

2655
02:27:40,100 --> 02:27:41,700
temple.
The New Jerusalem will be built

2656
02:27:41,900 --> 02:27:44,000
and Christ.
It will come into that Temple.

2657
02:27:44,700 --> 02:27:50,500
And all the tears will be, will
be washed away. 99% of people, I

2658
02:27:50,500 --> 02:27:52,400
think that listen to this
podcast.

2659
02:27:54,700 --> 02:27:58,600
Believe.
In Mormonism.

2660
02:27:59,600 --> 02:28:01,400
Here's the great thing about
Mormonism.

2661
02:28:01,600 --> 02:28:03,800
We know how this ends.
That's right.

2662
02:28:03,800 --> 02:28:06,400
We know how this ends.
The millennial reign of Christ

2663
02:28:06,400 --> 02:28:09,400
is How This Ends, right at some
point.

2664
02:28:09,400 --> 02:28:16,000
You also had to have received a
spiritual witness that you were

2665
02:28:16,000 --> 02:28:19,500
on the right path.
All we have to do is choose, we

2666
02:28:19,500 --> 02:28:22,000
know who's going to win.
We know what it looks like in

2667
02:28:22,000 --> 02:28:23,700
the end.
All we have to do is choose to

2668
02:28:23,700 --> 02:28:27,400
be on that side and that would
be my testimony is don't throw

2669
02:28:27,400 --> 02:28:32,500
the baby out with the bathwater
breathe and take your time and

2670
02:28:32,500 --> 02:28:36,800
reach out for help and yeah
that's that's it.

2671
02:28:37,300 --> 02:28:40,200
Ben dude, it's always awesome
when we get to talk.

2672
02:28:40,500 --> 02:28:41,600
Thank you.
I love it.

2673
02:28:41,900 --> 02:28:45,300
So good night everybody.
Bye everybody.

2674
02:29:00,500 --> 02:29:03,700
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.