Episode #31: Answers to Mormon Fundamentalist Questions W/ William Dummkopf, Michael Ness, & Jacob Vidrine

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So, I have a question.
What happens when a Lutheran

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interested in Mormonism?
Has a discussion with three,

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Mormon fundamentalist, well,
stick around because you're

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about to find out a few months
back.

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I demand named Billy, reach out
to me with some questions about

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Mormonism, fundamentalism and
the LDS church.

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Now, one of the things I like
about Billy is that he is an

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honest Seeker.
He wants to understand without

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playing quote, gotcha Games,
Billy eventually have the idea

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of wanting to come on the
podcast and ask some of those

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questions.
About Mormon fundamentalism now

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because I like Billy, I thought
he deserves to talk to someone

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way smarter than a clown with a
microphone.

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So I reached out to two guys,
way smarter than I am and that's

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Michael NASA and Jacob the
dream.

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So on this episode myself Billy
Michael and Jacob sit down and

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answer Billy's questions.
We end up having a fascinating

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conversation and deep diving on
some pretty interesting topics.

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And that's next on this episode
of the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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So, I just want to take a moment
to thank you.

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The Listener, when I started
this podcast I wasn't sure if

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anyone would really listen.
Now to my surprise, this thing

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has taken on a life of its own
and that's all due to you the

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listener, spending your time
here with me, and it means a

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great deal to me now, as a
husband and father, I'm keenly

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aware of how important time is.
It feels like there's just never

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enough of it.
So when you are spending your

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to never waste your time in that
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I feel like I need to do you The

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Listener.
Just This, I want to continue to

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I know surprising right now if
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If you're not in that position
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So I completely understand.
We're all squeezed right now

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with high gas prices and high
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Thank you.
Your listing to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Welcome back to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast as always you
can get ahold of me either by

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email at Mormon Renegade at
gmail.com.

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You can also get a hold of me on
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under the handle.
Mormon Renegade.

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Also we have a website up and
that's Mormon Renegade.com, so

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go check that out.
Okay, so on today's episode,

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I've been super excited for
this.

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And for about a month.
And the reason it is, is I get

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to talk to three people who I
just enjoy talking to you about,

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I would say, Two months ago, a
gentleman and we'll just call

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him Billy reached out to me with
some questions about

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fundamentalism now, Billy's, not
a Mormon of any stripe.

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He's he's he is Lutheran if I'm
not mistaken and Billy you can

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correct me if I'm wrong there.
But he's fascinated by the

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restored gospel and these ideas
that are presented in the

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restored gospel.
And what I find.

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So refreshing about Billy is
that he is a Honest Seeker,

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right.
He's not someone out here with

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an agenda.
He's not trying to trip anybody

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up.
He just wants to know and I dig

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that and I can totally get
behind that.

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So, we talked it, you know, as I
try to answer his questions, he

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kind of started listening to the
podcast a little bit and said,

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you know, maybe we should do
this on the podcast and I was

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like, that's good, but I was
thinking Billy deserve someone

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way smarter than me.
So that's why I brought on

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Michael Ness and Jacob the dream
because they're both way smarter

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than I am.
And so there, what we're going

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to do is Billy's got some
questions and at we're going to

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go through those questions and
we're Michael and Jacob are

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going to take turns answering
and we're going to have a

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discussion on them.
So this is unlike anything I've

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ever done before, but I think
it's going to be absolutely

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amazing.
So, with that first, Lee.

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Thanks a lot for being here,
man.

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I really, really appreciate it.
And again, I think you're cool.

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Just, you know, because you're
an honest Seeker, you don't have

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an agenda and I think that's so
refreshing.

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Thanks, Don.
I appreciate it.

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My quarter being here.
Well, I'm glad Michael.

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I'm I'm always glad to talk to
you brother.

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You're you're you and Jacob are
some of my favorites because you

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guys are just one you're good,
guys.

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You know, your stuff and I just
enjoy the heck out of here.

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And you.
So thanks for being here,

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fellas.
I'm glad to be here as well.

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Can't wait good to be on.
All right.

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Fantastic.
All right, well, let's just get

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into it Billy, why don't you?
Go ahead and ask your first

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question and then we'll let
Michael take the opening crack

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at answering these questions.
Sure.

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All right, so let's just start
with the basics and just on the

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outset as Dave mentioned, this
is not me trying One up anyone.

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This is not overly polemical.
This is just me trying to

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understand what you guys believe
and so to start, I would ask.

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What is the gospel?
All right.

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Hopefully, my I have the
strength to my voice to carry on

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this whole deal.
I've been feeling a bit under

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the weather, so I throw that out
there in the first place, but

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I'll actually love this
question.

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And I wrote something out on
this because in fundamentalism,

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I find that because so many for
generations of East, on certain

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things like polygamy.
Certain key, Cornerstone gospel,

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tenants have not been taught and
perpetuated.

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And so, the gospel in a nutshell
I would say, is first faith in

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Jesus Christ, and in his
atonement, his sacrifice, the

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second principle is repentance
from your sins.

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The third is receiving baptism
and Confirmation by the gift of

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the Holy Ghost, by the legal
administrators holding the

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priesthood.
And then from that point, it's

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enduring To the end of your
life.

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By keeping your covenants,
keeping the Commandments that

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God has given to the scriptures
and learning how to love the

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Lord, with all your heart, might
mind and strength, learning, to

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love your neighbor as yourself.
And I like to apply what Peter

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says.
And the second Peter first

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chapter where he says, add to
your faith virtue to Virtue

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knowledge, and to knowledge
Temperance, and to Temperance,

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patience and to patience
godliness and to Godliness.

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I'll do this brotherly kindness
and to brotherly kindness

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charity.
And then what James says to

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visit the fatherless and the
widows in their Affliction and

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to keep himself unspotted from
the vices of the world to me,

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that is a comprehensive view of
what the gospel teaches you to

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do socially with your life.
That's the good news of the

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Gospel.
You're becoming more christ-like

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in your, in your identity if you
apply those principles.

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And it's, that's the gospel.
Yeah, that's the gospel of

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Christ, in a nutshell And I
will, I'll leave that there.

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Cool.
Now is someone else going to?

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And think that if we're okay, go
ahead.

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Yeah I thought that was, I
thought it was a great overview,

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just perfect overview laying
out, you know, in a concise

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summary what it is.
I would say just to add just a

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few other perspectives to it, I
would add that.

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I think that the good news, the
gospel means, good news of Jesus

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Christ.
Is that You can be Sanctified

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and cleansed from our sins
through Jesus.

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Christ's atonement.
And that through that helmet, we

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can receive a Celestial.
Resurrection, if we strive to

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keep his Commandments and, and
really have that relationship

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with Jesus Christ through his
teachings and the ordinances of

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the gospel.
And so, really, you can say the

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gospel is, I would say in
Mormonism, we have what we would

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call this the First principles
of the Gospel, there are other

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principles that pertain to
Mormonism but are more higher

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principles.
We also, so, you could basically

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say there's a gospel of
Salvation and a gospel of

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exaltation and a lot of the
things, some people will say the

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Book of Mormon, does it contain
everything unique about, Mormon

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Doctrine?
If you've read the book of

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Mormon, you're going to be like,
this is just, you know, a lot of

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the basic stuff that mostly you
can find in the New Testament.

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And the reason for that is it's
just restating the gospel of

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salvation It's not getting into
any of the higher teachings.

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It's kind of what I would say.
All you is, is, did you feel

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like you had a good answer off
that oars or heck?

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Yeah.
Heck yeah.

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Now that was great and and this
will kind of maybe bleed into

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the next question a little bit.
And certainly as a Lutheran this

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is kind of maybe a fundamental
perspective and this comes the

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question of baptism and so what
exactly is baptism?

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I know like as Christians have
different takes on that but as a

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Lutheran, we view baptism as the
Forgiveness of sins.

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And so what is that?
As in from your perspective.

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Well, my on the early Mormons
understood that baptism, is it

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states in the New Testament?
That baptism is for the

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remission of sins and that is
fundamentally.

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What baptism is about is it's
for remission of your sins.

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If you have repented sincerely,
repented and turned to God with

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your heart that God promises
that through that ordered, that

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ordinance of Legally
administered you gain, retain a

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remission of your sins and
that's called baptismal.

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Regeneration is the technical
Term for it in early Christian

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Studies and that is I think
that's just fundamental but

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there's so many Christians who I
would say low Church

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Protestants.
I would guess it would be the

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ones who really helped lately.
The other efficacy of baptism

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but Mormonism is really big on
baptism is for the remission of

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your sins and to enter into the
Covenant path of the Gospel

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basically Excellent.
They thought sad on that

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Michael.
Yeah, so yeah.

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We're talking about In
Christianity, there's been a

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debate.
I think between this idea of

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faith and works, right?
And so baptism is, is like the

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first work, you know in the
gospel and it's the first

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ordinance of the priesthood
that's administered.

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When someone wants to join the
church of Christ or you know,

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and begin that Covenant path is
Jacob to saying as that's the

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first step and it's a token and
it's a sign that you're willing

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to lay down your life in a
similar to die as Christ.

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Did you know, and become Um, you
know, become like him.

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Follow his example, you're
trying to incorporate his

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attributes into yourself and
that, you know, and Mormonism

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takes that to that extreme like
we touched on earlier is like

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the gospel is a as we outlined
the first principles.

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These are the stepping stones,
but they ultimately bring you

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into a very literal promise that
you will be like the Savior that

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you will.
He's the pattern for an exalted

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being relative to us and we are
trying to obtain what he is.

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That actually brings that brings
to mind something else to add on

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that subject.
There's always the debate on

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salvation, whether there's
salvation whether there's

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present salvation, where
mainstream a lot of mainstream

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Christians would say, are you
saved Now versus future

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salvation.
Are you going to be saved in the

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kingdom of God?
And there's kind of this debate

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where it seems like Catholics
really emphasize the future

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00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:15,200
salvation.
While your average Evangelical

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will emphasize present
salvation, I've learned from

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studying Scholars who study the
early Christian writings is the

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idea that there's two phases of
Salvation, there's an initial

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salvation, present salvation,
that comes when you have faith

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00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,000
in Jesus Christ, you repent of
your sins and your baptized and

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00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,000
through the grace of Christ, you
are saved from that moment and

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you will if you die after being
baptized, you know, that you're

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going to go to paradise and
you're on track for the

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Celestial Kingdom.
But then there's maintaining

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00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,000
your safe condition through
obedience to the Commandments

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and striving to continue on that
path of the gospel.

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And there's a really good
Brigham Young quote on this

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00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,400
where he set and this is in
Journal of discourses volume 8

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00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,900
page 124.
Yeah, he said if a person with

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00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:12,000
an honest heart, a broken
contract and pure spirit and all

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00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,600
fervency and honesty of Soul
presents himself and says he

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wishes to be baptized for the
remission of his sins.

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And the ordinance is
administered by one having

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Authority.
Is that man saved?

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Yes, to that period of time.
Should the Lord see property

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00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:26,500
taken from the earth?
That man is believed and been

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00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,800
baptized?
And is a subject is a fit

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00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,300
subject for heaven.
A candidate for the kingdom of

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00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:34,400
God was Lester world because
he's repented and done all that

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00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,500
is required to him from that
hour, but after he is, baptized

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and hands have been laid upon
them for the reception of the

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Holy Ghost, suppose.
The next day, he's commanded to

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go forth and preach the gospel
or teaches family where system

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00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,400
Billy have the kingdom of God or
take a substance and give it to

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the poor.
And he says, I will not do it.

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His baptism and Confirmation
would depart from him, and he

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00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:53,300
would be in.
He says, he'd be left as a son

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00:14:53,300 --> 00:14:56,700
of perdition, but if he says
with a willing heart in mind,

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00:14:56,700 --> 00:14:58,800
here's my substance.
I will not only pay attempt of

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00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,200
it, but the whole of it is at
your feet.

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00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,000
Do with it.
As you, please, does.

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00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,200
He not continue to be saved?
Yes, and so that's something

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00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,200
I've seen in the Journal of this
course, a number of times where

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they talk both about present
salvation, as well as future

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00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,900
salvation.
So just a thought that came to

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00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:16,000
mind, Michael.
I saw, you raise your hand.

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00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,800
Did you have something?
Oh, that was probably me to

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00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,400
scratch an itch.
No, I did not have anything to

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00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,000
add that.
I thought that was pretty great.

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00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:29,400
Actually, that was that was very
well put, you know, it's I think

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00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,900
it's kind of a good thing and
this is another reason that I'm

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00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:37,800
so thankful that Billy reached
out because sometimes especially

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00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,000
as fundamentalist we get in this
stage of where we're constantly

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00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:46,200
deep diving into to quote, the
mysteries of godliness.

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And that's a Good thing, right?
I think that's, that's a great

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00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:54,000
thing.
But sometimes we need to go back

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00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,900
and we need to revisit these
first initial steps we took on

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00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:02,600
our path of discipleship,
because I feel like if we can

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00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,400
recapture that Spirit, it kind
of lights that fire again,

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00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:08,400
Billy.
Did you have any thoughts hat or

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00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,600
anything else you wanted to take
further with that?

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00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,700
I mean, so obviously there's
disagreement from a Lutheran

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00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,200
perspective.
Baptism from the Lutheran

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00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:21,100
Perspective is the fundamental
thing that we look to for our

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00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:25,300
Salvation.
And so Martin Luther is quoted

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00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:27,900
by saying, you know, when you
Splash your face and your more

289
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:30,200
and with water in the morning,
remember your baptism.

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00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,800
And it's where God Saves you
but, you know, some of the

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00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,900
similarities is interesting.
And so I think as we one of the

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00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:42,200
questions I have after this is
about re-baptism and I know

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00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,600
Ogden crowd has Rhythm book on
that.

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00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,600
And so, I guess, how would you
understand?

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00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,300
Re-baptism?
And certainly, if I can, maybe

296
00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:56,800
throw a verse out there in
Ephesians 4:5, it's one Lord,

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00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:01,500
One Faith, one baptism.
And so what is re-baptism and

298
00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:05,599
and how does that fit in with
the salvific perspective?

299
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:11,500
Well, I think Jacob has a more
sound re-baptism from the Ogden

300
00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:14,300
Kraut perspective than I do.
I know that he's pretty fond of

301
00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:18,900
that book.
My response, however, though,

302
00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:21,900
would be in reference to that
scripture.

303
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,400
There is there's only one legal
Channel.

304
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:28,600
Authorized by God.
And that's why, that's why the

305
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,100
priesthood, you know.
And so when I hear Ephesians 4:5

306
00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:35,500
and it's one thing, it's one
Lord, one baptism, there's one

307
00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:38,900
priesthood, it's one ordinance.
You know what, that can't be

308
00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,400
changed.
There's a very strict, you know,

309
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,200
it's a minister, very strictly
and its forms and patterns and

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00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,200
and you know, we have one Lord
that's the these, the Chief

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00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:55,100
Cornerstone of our faith.
And to me, that's That's how I

312
00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:57,400
would interpret that scripture.
Not how that you couldn't be

313
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,800
baptized more than once.
Speaking of Mormonism, you know,

314
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:10,300
the It wasn't abnormal to be
re-baptized in the early days,

315
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:15,300
if one was impressed, too.
I also know that Joseph and

316
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:20,500
Oliver baptized themselves when
they had a, they had John the

317
00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:23,700
Baptist visit them but then they
were re-baptized for record sake

318
00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:29,300
when they Incorporated the
Church of Christ in New York in

319
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:32,800
1830 and that was for, you know,
to go through that form and it's

320
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,100
a record state, but the
ordinance was still the same.

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00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:40,200
You know, each time I had
another comment though, and I

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00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,100
wish I had actually gone to the
book of Acts to see how it reads

323
00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:50,900
there.
But I was, I was looking through

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00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:57,300
a speech that Joseph Smith gave
and he was quoting in Acts or

325
00:18:57,308 --> 00:19:01,200
talking about the when Paul was
going to Corinth.

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00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,700
The re-baptism, an act, right
right there, and he didn't.

327
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:10,600
And he goes, and he asks, you
know, what were you guys

328
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,800
baptized into?
And, and they say we're about,

329
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,300
you know, these disciples, they
say we're born in the John's

330
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:23,200
baptism and, and or know Paul
asks, have you received the Holy

331
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,700
Ghost since you believed and
were converted right?

332
00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:27,900
And they say no we have not
heard so much of this.

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00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:32,500
Holy Ghost, Paul asks, who
baptizes you then.

334
00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:36,700
They said oh we were baptized to
John's baptism and he says you

335
00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:39,100
know this is how Joseph Smith
puts he says, no not so my

336
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:40,900
friends, John did not baptize
you for.

337
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:43,100
He did his work right and you
would have heard of the Holy

338
00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:46,400
Ghost but you've been duped by
some designing knave who has

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00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,600
come in the name of John as an
imposter, you know, and he says,

340
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,700
oh how did Paul know it?
Because John was always saying,

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00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:57,200
while baptize you with water and
then somewhat Theo, someone

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00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,400
after me who is greater than me,
will come and baptize you with

343
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,500
fire and B.
So that they knew They knew the

344
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:05,600
or Paul knew that since they
didn't even know who the what

345
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:07,700
the Holy Ghost was that you
know, that they were not

346
00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:10,100
baptized authoritatively.
So what did he do?

347
00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:15,900
He baptized them right there and
that's that's essentially all I

348
00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:18,900
had enough.
So let me, let me ask you

349
00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:22,700
something.
Does baptism have to be

350
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:27,000
administered by a specific
person or can a layperson

351
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:33,400
administer baptism who can
actually baptized so and that's

352
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:39,000
a great question, because
There's going to be a difference

353
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,400
between what you would consider
a layperson and then what we

354
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,100
would consider like lay people
with in Mormonism, right?

355
00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:53,800
Because with in evangelicalism,
you usually have a chief Pastor

356
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,300
or something like that, right?
With in Mormonism, we strive to

357
00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:02,400
give every word, you know, every
word email the the priesthood,

358
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,000
right?
So when you say a Layperson.

359
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,400
Well, yeah, anybody having that
Authority, right?

360
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:16,800
And so it's often been said of
mormonism's of every Mormonism

361
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,300
of every stripe, that that it's
all lay clergy for the most

362
00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:23,200
part.
And that for the most part is

363
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,400
true.
So while yes a number of people

364
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,900
can perform that is there still
a question of priesthood

365
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,300
Authority, their fellows.
Do you think I answered that?

366
00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:36,700
All right there.
Yeah, I think that's good.

367
00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:41,400
I think the other thing I would
add to how early Mormons would

368
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,600
understand one Faith, one Lord,
one baptism.

369
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,600
When I've seen them, talk about
that verse in the scriptures.

370
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,200
They emphasize that one baptism
means, there's one mode of

371
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,600
baptism and that is described in
the Book of Romans is being

372
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,500
buried in the water.
Like Christ was buried.

373
00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:01,200
It's, it's in a similar food of
his death.

374
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,500
And so, there isn't this
pouring, or sprinkling, they Its

375
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:07,500
own.
There's only one form of baptism

376
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:11,600
and that is to be immersed in
the water and that's why John

377
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,300
was baptizing.
I believe it's in John chapter 3

378
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:17,700
where it says that John the
Baptist was baptizing a certain

379
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:22,800
area because there was much
water there and re-baptism well

380
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,900
I don't see it in early
Christianity, that's I see it

381
00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:32,300
hinted in the New Testament in
Revelation 2:5 where the Apostle

382
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:37,500
John is writing to the churches
and he says As this is the King

383
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:39,300
James version.
Remember from whence Thou Art

384
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:42,800
fallen and repent and do the
first works or else, I will come

385
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,200
unto thee quickly, and will
remove thy Candlestick out of

386
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,100
his place except thou repent.
And so redoing, your first

387
00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:51,200
works.
I see is the reference to

388
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,700
re-baptism and, you know, I do
think that re baptism is the

389
00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:57,700
ordinance for the remission of
sins.

390
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,300
And I like that Martin Luther
says that you should always be

391
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:03,900
focused on your Baptist.
And I think re-baptism is

392
00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:07,800
pointing back to Are you know,
that you might receive the

393
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,100
ordinance several times, but
just like, you know, there's

394
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:13,700
only one Lord's Supper, you're
just repeating the ordinance on

395
00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:18,000
a regular basis and re-baptism
is it necessarily on as frequent

396
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,100
basis?
It's, you know, all depends on

397
00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:23,300
the individual and the
fundamentalist Community, some

398
00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:26,500
people might do it every, you
know, a couple times in their

399
00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:29,300
lives, others might do it more
frequently than that.

400
00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:33,500
But yeah, it's the ordinance for
the remission of sins.

401
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:38,900
So I think Think you know the
getting baptized as H and

402
00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:43,100
Mormonism you get baptized at
age 8 but I think most of us

403
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:46,600
make our bigger biggest sins
later on in our lives before.

404
00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:50,000
You know not you know you're
getting baptized but you're

405
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,000
going to make all your mistakes
after your initial baptism.

406
00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:58,900
So I see re-baptism as a logical
principle of the gospel and in

407
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:04,200
understanding that ordinance.
So just to clarify let's say I

408
00:24:04,208 --> 00:24:09,500
get baptized Eight years old and
I said, I steal from my local

409
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,900
grocery store.
What I expected to be.

410
00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:17,900
Baptized again, like is it like
sin re-baptism?

411
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:19,400
Is it?
How does that work?

412
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:21,700
Or is it up left up to the
individual conscience?

413
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:26,400
I don't think that it's
necessarily, you know, every

414
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,600
time you sin right?
Because there's there's other

415
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,300
ordinances that helped us
through that the sacrament being

416
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:36,700
one of them as I've looked Back
at historical accounts, there

417
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:40,400
certainly are times.
And again, fellas Jacob, Michael

418
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,500
jump in here if I'm wrong on
this.

419
00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:47,300
But as I've seen it, you would
essentially get re-baptized at

420
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:50,200
Big moments in life a lot,
right?

421
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,700
That's where you hear about it.
The most is, you know, somebody

422
00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:57,400
gets a new calling, somebody's
about to get married.

423
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:04,000
Somebody is about to get your
endowment and down and join,

424
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,900
right?
I don't know.

425
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,400
And so a lot of times, these
were things that re-baptism is

426
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,600
something you would do to kind
of recommit yourself and maybe

427
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,200
start this new portion of your
life on the right foot fellows.

428
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:19,800
It does that seem off base at
all.

429
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,100
No no touched on in early
Mormonism.

430
00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:26,400
The Saints kind of.
It looks like after a

431
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,400
significant population was
developed in the Salt Lake

432
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,200
Valley.
It was observed that there was

433
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,900
some negligence on certain
things.

434
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,400
And there was What's called the
Mormon reformation and it was

435
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,500
very much encouraged to enter
into re-baptism so much, so that

436
00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:46,000
they became so much of a fervent
Spirit, you know, that one of

437
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,400
the, one of the Apostles and the
first presidency gendered, I am

438
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,000
Grant ended up dying from
exposure administering, baptisms

439
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,500
in a river in November by
belief.

440
00:25:57,100 --> 00:26:03,100
And but this was because the
leadership encouraged it

441
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:06,600
basically, as a okay let's go.
Let's take these come once more.

442
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,900
Seriously, we're trying to build
a temple here.

443
00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:11,900
We want people to be prepared
for this, you know, we don't, we

444
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:14,200
can't administer these things
that we wanted to involve you.

445
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,600
We had to leave Malibu before we
could attend to all these things

446
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,100
and we don't want to be
negligent on you know, in the

447
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:24,300
wilderness as we're waiting, to
build another Temple so we can

448
00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:25,800
show you the things that can
only be showed.

449
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,300
There is how I kind of look at
that.

450
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,700
Yeah, and the other thing on the
point is it's not about every

451
00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:35,500
time you commit an act of sin.
It's about some Baptism

452
00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:40,700
symbolizes having Death to Your
former sinful life and repenting

453
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:43,000
and taking on a new holy or
nature.

454
00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:46,700
And so baptism is about your,
you know, it's sinful act like

455
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:49,600
you go and, you know, commit sin
and then be like, oh if I can

456
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,700
just get baptized afterwards for
that.

457
00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:54,000
That's not what it's about.
It's about changing your sinful

458
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,300
nature and being more repentant
and more, holy and more

459
00:26:57,300 --> 00:27:00,100
Sanctified.
And I think that's part what

460
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:02,000
part of why they stopped doing
re-baptism.

461
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,400
The 1890s was, they felt that
there were certain Folks, who

462
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,800
are abusing the principal
re-baptism and saying, oh, I can

463
00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,000
commit Grievous sins.
I could just get baptized later

464
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,100
on in the first presidency was
like we don't approve of that

465
00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:17,900
abuse of the principle of
baptism.

466
00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:21,400
Very interesting.
You know it concur with up.

467
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,300
So one of the things that
actually I was happy about is

468
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,800
when I first met some Mormon
missionaries, one of my first

469
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,000
questions was like well so what
do you guys do with the Lord's

470
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,500
supper?
And she's like well We use bread

471
00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:37,500
and water as a.
Okay.

472
00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:41,200
Bread and water.
No, and I found out you guys

473
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,300
actually use bread and wine.
So what is the Lord's supper for

474
00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:48,000
you guys?
And maybe moving into the Lord's

475
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,000
Supper, the next Sacrament, how
do you guys do that for

476
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,900
lutherans?
This is the Pinnacle of the

477
00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:56,700
worship service.
We praise God.

478
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,700
We hear the word preached and
then we remember our Savior by

479
00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:04,300
taking the Lord's supper, and we
actually have a view of the real

480
00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:06,200
presence.
You actually believe that Christ

481
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,300
is literally present but how
would you guys use the Lord's

482
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:11,500
Supper?
Yeah.

483
00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:15,500
So with fundamentalist, I think
fundamentals take it a bit more

484
00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:20,000
serious than the.
I think the LDS church in many

485
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,200
ways is copied low-level
protestantism in there.

486
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:27,500
Some of their worship services
and I think that's evident in

487
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:31,300
the sacrament and I think that
open communion actually is part

488
00:28:31,300 --> 00:28:34,700
of that by saying, you know
anyone, everyone can take the

489
00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:37,800
Sacrament, unless say, the
Bishops explicitly forbids.

490
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,900
Absolutely, well, yeah, and that
open communion.

491
00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:43,900
Is it taking it as serious, you
know, in the scripture that

492
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:48,600
talks about how serious it is to
be properly worthy to partake of

493
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,200
the sacrament.
And so, thus I've seen sources

494
00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:55,000
in early Mormonism that
originally they did have close

495
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,200
communion and they actually
would do their preaching sir

496
00:28:57,500 --> 00:29:00,100
their sermons at one meeting and
then their Sacrament meetings

497
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:03,400
would actually be in a separate
occasions just to make sure that

498
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,800
they're only inviting people.
They're in really good

499
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,800
Fellowship you know that they
know are improper.

500
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,900
Holy Fellowship to receive the
sacrament and so I agree that I

501
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:15,600
don't like, there's the
Revelation, there's a

502
00:29:15,608 --> 00:29:18,300
revelation, the DNC saying that
you shouldn't buy wine of your

503
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:20,700
enemies and so it doesn't matter
what you use.

504
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:26,800
But still the DNC prescribes
that wine is the proper emblem

505
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,400
to use in the sacrament.
And there's a number of

506
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,800
statements by Joseph Smith on
that in the school of the

507
00:29:32,808 --> 00:29:36,300
prophets under John.
Are they talked about Joseph?

508
00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:39,100
Smith's teachings on the
sacrament and this is a quote

509
00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:41,400
from, I believe Zebedee,
Coltrane recalling it.

510
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,200
He said, quote, the sacrament is
also missed yours at times when

511
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,300
the Prophet Joseph appointed
after the Ancient Order that is

512
00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:50,900
warm bread to break easily was
provided and broken into pieces

513
00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:53,500
as large as my fist.
And each person had a glass of

514
00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:56,300
wine and satin ate the bread and
drank the wine.

515
00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:59,300
And Joseph said, this was the
way that Jesus's disciples /

516
00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:02,200
took in the bread and wine and
thus was the order of the church

517
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,800
ancient lie until the church
went into darkness.

518
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:09,800
So I do think that's the proper
order and I purse, I'm an

519
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,000
outlier in this.
I really like studying the early

520
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:19,000
Christians, so I really have
personally hold real presence

521
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:19,800
view.
I don't believe in

522
00:30:19,808 --> 00:30:22,900
transubstantiation, but I think
that when you read the

523
00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:25,500
scriptures and like Brigham,
Young would say it's so that we

524
00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:28,900
have a spiritual union with
Jesus Christ through the

525
00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:32,200
ordinance of the sacrament and
it's to have his spirit with us.

526
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,800
And so, I do really like the
real Presents View and that's

527
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,000
just kind of my take on it.
Oh that's awesome.

528
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,500
Most Mormons don't hold really
as they think it's just symbolic

529
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:47,600
but I think it's an important
salvific symbol.

530
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,500
So sure.
Michael.

531
00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:54,600
What do you got on that buddy?
Um I definitely think one should

532
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,500
be using hot water.
I'll say that first off but it's

533
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:02,600
obviously ordinances.
These things are meant to be

534
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,000
symbolic.
And ideal was obviously

535
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,400
instituted for a reason wine
looks like blood and these

536
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,700
changing from ordinances should
not be taken lightly.

537
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,500
Although as Jacob mentioned
there was a revelation which the

538
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:23,400
church uses to excuse themselves
in using water and also the the

539
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,500
prohibition post-prohibition
church under Heber J.

540
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:31,800
Grant you know they started
moving away from a mild

541
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,700
acceptance of alcohol before
that point in the 1920s.

542
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,100
When the, when the, when the
federal government repealed that

543
00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:43,800
act of the earth.
You know, that article in the

544
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:48,500
Constitution Heber J Grant was
kind of vindictive, that kind of

545
00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:49,700
wanted to show the rest of the
world.

546
00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:50,800
And we're going to hang on to
this.

547
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:55,000
So that's kind of some
historical context for the the

548
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,200
church departing away from using
wine in there, sacrament to

549
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,700
water because there was a
general over focus of moving

550
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:03,900
away from.
Yeah, they had a mild tolerance

551
00:32:03,900 --> 00:32:09,400
and alcohol.
At least wine and beer, but we

552
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,200
can under circumstances I think
use whatever's convenient and

553
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,200
it's to attend to that because
we are trying to remember the

554
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,700
covenants we've made.
I don't know if you've ever

555
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:27,000
reviewed the prayers that, you
know, the we recite when we do,

556
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:32,700
when we do the, the sacrament, I
think, Donna, how much explode

557
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,800
would you like me to?
That look that up.

558
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:39,200
Yeah.
Please do right?

559
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,600
Right.
And Mauro night at the very end

560
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:46,100
of the Book of Mormon.
Yeah, I was a well, They got

561
00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:50,400
some they got that on the LDS
app somewhere by themselves,

562
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,800
pretty easy.
Anyway, said that when your

563
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,600
blessing the bread it was says,
o God, the Eternal Father.

564
00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:59,600
We ask thee in the name of thy
son, Jesus Christ to bless and

565
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,400
sanctify.
This bread to The Souls of all

566
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,800
those who partake in it.
That they may eat in remembrance

567
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,000
of the body of thy son and
witness unto thee.

568
00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:10,100
O God, the Eternal Father that
they are willing to take upon

569
00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:12,400
them.
The name of thy son and always

570
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,100
remember him and keep his
Commandments which he has given

571
00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:16,900
them.
That they may always have his

572
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:18,900
Spirit to be with them.
Amen.

573
00:33:19,900 --> 00:33:24,500
Then the blessing for the wine
is O God the Eternal Father.

574
00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:27,700
We ask thee in the name of thy
son, Jesus Christ to bless and

575
00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:30,100
sanctify.
His wine to The Souls of all

576
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:33,200
those who drink of it that they
may do it in remembrance of the

577
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,500
blood of thy son, which was shed
for them, that they may witness

578
00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:38,700
unto thee.
O God, the Eternal Father that

579
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:41,800
they do, always remember him
that they may have his Spirit to

580
00:33:41,808 --> 00:33:43,500
be with them.
Amen.

581
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,000
And so it's very much present
there, you know that we want the

582
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,600
spirit of the Lord, as you know,
to be with us always as we're as

583
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,700
we're taking of those emblems
and I don't know, so much about

584
00:33:57,700 --> 00:33:59,900
real presence.
I definitely don't view it as in

585
00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:07,600
a trance substantial ISM.
Just things just to be clear as

586
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,199
a Lutheran.
We don't believe in

587
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:14,199
transubstantiation either.
That's a Catholic notion that

588
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,400
kind of was in.
It over time, like with

589
00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:21,100
Aristotelian, logic and
categories and things like that.

590
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:26,800
So we just state with Christ
states that it is his body and

591
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,800
we kind of leave it there to a
mystery.

592
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:33,600
So just want to clarify that.
One thing I found that was

593
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,300
interesting and doing some
research on and I don't know if

594
00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:39,000
it's always been done this way
but the way I saw done in the

595
00:34:39,007 --> 00:34:42,699
LDS church and it's pretty, you
know, that's typical I guess.

596
00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:45,000
I don't know.
Some some fundamentalist might

597
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,800
do A different way.
I think it's interesting though.

598
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,900
We have an altar and we put the
bread and the wine on this on

599
00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:54,800
this alter the priests and
behind it.

600
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:57,400
And they blessed in the
congregation is on the other

601
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,900
side from the altar, you know,
from the from the priest, from

602
00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:05,700
the priesthood there and they'll
usually aren't, you know,

603
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:10,800
there's a cloth over the altar.
They'll uncover one the other

604
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,600
bread first, then cover it and
then do the wine.

605
00:35:14,500 --> 00:35:16,600
I think it's interesting.
Thing about had pointed out to

606
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,200
me and I don't know if it was
intentional but it probably was.

607
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,600
But it hasn't really been
explained this way that it's

608
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,400
almost as if the two priests,
you know, at the altar

609
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:32,200
represent, the two angels who go
to the tomb and and they are,

610
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,000
they are administering, Christ's
body back to the church, you

611
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,900
know, the and there, you know.
So in one sense, the the altar

612
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:43,100
represents the veil.
And these angels are the, you

613
00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:45,000
know, the two priests, you know,
they're administering the body.

614
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:46,900
Of Christ from out of the out,
the tomb, that way.

615
00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:49,100
And I thought that was pretty
profound when I realized that

616
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:55,500
and even I saw in my ward
houses, you know, Christ when he

617
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:59,100
was buried he had a napkin right
for the head and we had another

618
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:03,000
napkin that was placed and I
don't know if you guys do that

619
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,200
or what, but there was a napkin
that was placed with with the

620
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,900
emblems in the sacrament and
when Christ when the disciples

621
00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:15,100
went to the tomb and they saw
that their my understanding is

622
00:36:15,100 --> 00:36:17,100
that That was that was
emblematic.

623
00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:21,200
Also of a Jewish custom that if
someone was to leave the dinner

624
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:26,300
table, That was a sign that
you're not done eating yet.

625
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:28,800
You're going to be back, right?
So that was a sign that Christ

626
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,000
absolutely like like he's going
to be back, that's really cool.

627
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:39,800
Actually, we do cover our
Sacrament with a napkin and so I

628
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,600
actually never heard that
explanation before and I'm going

629
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,300
to look into that if that's why
we do it, so interesting, I keep

630
00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:49,400
on learning stuff with you guys,
but keep on going.

631
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:52,800
Well, I'm glad you're you're
you're learning.

632
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,100
Something I learned something.
Every time I talk to Jacob and

633
00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:59,000
Michael I'm constantly reminded
when I'm talking these guys how

634
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,500
much further I have to go
something else I want to say on

635
00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:06,600
the sacrament is that sometimes
and and I'll just speak from my

636
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,600
own experience.
We get into a routine with it

637
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,200
right and it almost becomes kind
of a spectator sport.

638
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:16,000
I don't think that's how the
sacrament supposed to be.

639
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,200
I think in some ways we are
meant to be active.

640
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,000
Participants And I think how we
do that and I think this is one

641
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,900
of those ways that we could
really invite the Lord or the

642
00:37:25,908 --> 00:37:29,700
spirit of the Lord to be there
during our Sacrament meetings.

643
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:32,700
And when we partake of it is
making sure that that we're

644
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:37,700
being truly repentant in that
time, really focusing on.

645
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:40,400
Do we have that broken heart and
a contrite spirit?

646
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,600
Otherwise we're just going
through the motions as far as

647
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,000
the emblems go.
I agree with both Jacob and

648
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,700
Michael the Doctrine and
Covenants.

649
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:55,100
Hence, the, the New Testament,
The Book of Mormon during Christ

650
00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:57,400
visitation was very clear on
wine.

651
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,700
And unless it's an extraordinary
circumstance, I think you stay

652
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:04,100
with that.
Having said that are there

653
00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:05,200
exceptions.
Sure.

654
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,100
I mean, I remember reading a
story about a set of Mormon

655
00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:13,100
pows, who all they could ration
was water, and whatever else

656
00:38:13,100 --> 00:38:15,800
they could find.
I think, in those circumstances,

657
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,600
the Lord is more than willing to
to work with us on that, on that

658
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,500
point.
That's last month.

659
00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:26,200
Caught one quick question Billy.
Yeah, go ahead but I studied the

660
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,300
early Christians.
So I really like getting, what's

661
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:33,100
the universal belief of all the,
in the pre, niceand Christians,

662
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,400
you know, all over the world.
Because that's usually means it

663
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,800
goes back to the apostles.
If everyone all across the

664
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,000
ancient Christian World held the
same beliefs, one of the things

665
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,200
they often did, was they
mentioned wind, they mentioned,

666
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,000
Also mentioned water on some
occasions.

667
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,900
Some, but some authors mentioned
water.

668
00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:54,800
Mixed with wine is that
something Lutheran's do mixing

669
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,200
do water and wine mixed, or
Idaho?

670
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,100
I have heard of that.
Although, that's not practice

671
00:39:02,100 --> 00:39:05,000
and our Synod.
We usually just take one but I

672
00:39:05,008 --> 00:39:09,600
have heard of that.
Okay, yeah, yeah, getting back

673
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,400
to what?
What are you guys said about?

674
00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:13,800
Open Community.
That's a pretty big thing too,

675
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,100
because Paul speaks about like
keeping judgment on yourself it.

676
00:39:18,300 --> 00:39:21,500
Thew partake, wrongly and so
Dave, what you said is like, you

677
00:39:21,508 --> 00:39:24,500
know, make sure you come to the
supper penitent.

678
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,000
That's you don't want to take
that stuff lightly, you know,

679
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:33,900
and so I appreciate that.
So, should I move it to the

680
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,000
yeah?
Let's let's, let's move right

681
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,200
along and I apologize for the
delay because we were all muting

682
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,200
here and unmuting.
So I apologize.

683
00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:47,500
It's all good, it's all good.
And so, as I as I kind of maybe

684
00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:51,100
progress in this, like they may
seem a little more polemical,

685
00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:55,400
but these are just questions
that, as I read the book of

686
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,600
Mormon, as I learn the Mormon
faith, these are just things

687
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,100
that strike me.
I'm like, what What is going on

688
00:40:02,100 --> 00:40:06,600
here?
Is and so let me just move right

689
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,600
into the first question and that
has to deal with Celestial

690
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,900
marriage.
And so the question is asked of

691
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:18,300
Jesus, I think it's by the
Sanhedrin and obviously they

692
00:40:18,300 --> 00:40:21,800
don't believe in the
resurrection and they give him

693
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,400
this question about a wife who
marries someone and then the

694
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,700
brother dies and she marries.
The other brother I think it

695
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:30,100
like goes through like six
iterations or something like

696
00:40:30,107 --> 00:40:36,200
that and then Jesus, basically,
at the end of that, they ask,

697
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,900
who is she married to in the
kingdom of heaven?

698
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,600
And so Jesus gives this
statement when the dead rise

699
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,500
they will neither marry nor are
given in.

700
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:49,500
Marriage are like the angels in
heaven and that's in Mark 12 25.

701
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,800
And so understanding like trying
to learn about Celestial

702
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,600
marriage and then looking at
what Jesus says, it's almost

703
00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:00,600
like there was a perfect time to
teach on that and it doesn't

704
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,900
seem to fit these Gather, where
am I missing that?

705
00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:07,600
Yeah, I love to build.
I've actually we've talked about

706
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:13,000
this one before and my answer is
the same on that the the

707
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,000
brethren, in the early Brethren
and the Mormon Church taught,

708
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:19,500
you know, essentially what
Christ was doing was not

709
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:21,700
throwing Pearls Before Swine.
They didn't even believe in a

710
00:41:21,707 --> 00:41:26,700
resurrection at this point but
what he said was not a lie, you

711
00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:30,900
know, there is no marrying or
attending to a marriage, you

712
00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:33,800
know?
As a verb in heaven.

713
00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:37,300
You're married on Earth.
Yeah, and we believe in the in

714
00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:41,600
ceiling keys in the priesthood,
and these marriages are done in

715
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,400
earth on Earth, so that they can
continue that state can continue

716
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,500
in heaven, but there are there's
no more marriages done.

717
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:53,100
That has to be done on Earth as
it maintains its its status, its

718
00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:57,600
contract, you can read that in
section 132 where it talks about

719
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,500
the eternity of the marriage,
covenant.

720
00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:02,300
And so Christ wasn't Because he
doesn't.

721
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:04,100
Yeah I don't think he's saying
that the state of marriage

722
00:42:04,100 --> 00:42:07,100
doesn't exist but you know it's
like we will not build, we won't

723
00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:10,000
be giving in marriage, you know
anymore.

724
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,600
And and to me it was a really
political answer because he

725
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,900
wasn't a waste his time.
Talking about educating people

726
00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:20,600
about the mysteries of godliness
when they didn't even believe in

727
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,600
a literal Resurrection anymore.
Interesting.

728
00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:29,900
Okay. and so, The angels in
heaven.

729
00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:32,700
How does that compare to the
Saints?

730
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:36,600
Who died?
Do we become ain't like, I know

731
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,900
Marone, I, for example, was a
saying to became an angel.

732
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,300
Do we become Angels or no, or is
that a possibility for us?

733
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:50,000
That's a really good question,
and Probably a lot of good

734
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,600
answers for that.
I do see a problem because

735
00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:56,900
according to the way Joseph
Smith used that term there was

736
00:42:56,900 --> 00:43:00,000
some fluidity and some, there
were some flux to the way he

737
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,100
used the word Angel as a term.
Sometimes he just, you know,

738
00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:09,800
it's, it's usually applied to a
resurrected being who's a

739
00:43:09,808 --> 00:43:11,800
messenger, right or even a
spirit.

740
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,600
That's just somebody that's a
messenger.

741
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,900
So I should say, most generally,
an angel is someone who's

742
00:43:16,900 --> 00:43:20,800
delivering a message.
And his own personal salvation,

743
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,100
and exaltation isn't necessarily
the big question regarding his

744
00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:27,300
message.
But in some instances in the

745
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:31,000
revelations that says that
angels are resurrected beings in

746
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,600
the next, you know, after this
judgment.

747
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,800
But they won't they'll be single
and they won't have an

748
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,800
exaltation.
They won't be as the gods are,

749
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,200
you know, but they'll be
servants to the gods and so

750
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,500
that's an angel and in different
contexts as well.

751
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,300
And so it depends if you know,
what do you what are we going to

752
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:48,500
become?
It really depends on.

753
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,500
Glory.
We attend to and where we're

754
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:54,400
going to be sorted in, you know,
in that Vision, that Joseph

755
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,100
Smith and Sidney Rigdon have
ahead of the three degrees of,

756
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,900
you know, of Glory with a Three
Kingdoms.

757
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:04,200
And it was it's been taught that
Celestial beings will Minister

758
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,400
as angels to terrestrial worlds
and terrestrial.

759
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:10,600
You know, beings will ministers
angels to the teal astral

760
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,500
world's even, you know?
And so there is some variety in

761
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:17,800
degrees there.
Yeah, I think Michael covered

762
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,900
it, pretty Great.
I would just add that Eternal

763
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:25,300
Marriage was introduced by
Joseph Smith as a secret

764
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:28,000
teaching.
It wasn't something that he

765
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:35,100
really publicly taught about
until July of 1843 met of 1843

766
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:38,200
he hints at it.
July 1843 gives a sermon but he

767
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,200
says I can't reveal the fullness
of this until the temple is

768
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,900
completed.
And so this was considered a

769
00:44:43,900 --> 00:44:47,000
more esoteric teaching that
pertain to exaltation.

770
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,700
That Joseph was Tended, to be
more of a temple teaching.

771
00:44:51,100 --> 00:44:53,700
And so, similarly, when I look
at the New Testament that

772
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:57,100
passage, I don't see Jesus, it's
like Michael said throwing his

773
00:44:57,100 --> 00:45:01,500
Pearls Before Swine the the
Eternal Marriage, only belongs

774
00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:05,400
to the Melchizedek priesthood,
like in order to pull in order

775
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,900
to be in an Eternal Marriage, a
man has to hold the high

776
00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:12,700
priesthood and it takes using
the sign.

777
00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:17,200
The the endowment, the the milk
has that portion of the temple

778
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,800
Endowment in Mormonism.
In order to perform being

779
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,100
perform an eternal marriage.
And so I don't think Jesus was

780
00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:30,100
going to do that, you know, he I
don't think the Sadducees even

781
00:45:30,100 --> 00:45:33,500
knew that he had received this
higher priesthood, he kept his

782
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:36,300
authority at secret.
He said they're like by what

783
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:37,700
Authority does he do these
things?

784
00:45:37,700 --> 00:45:41,300
And Jesus says, if you tell me
whether John the Baptist was

785
00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:44,200
called of God or called a bit by
man, that I'll Tell You by my

786
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,500
authority and they the the
Pharisees didn't want to answer

787
00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:50,300
him on that and And the we can't
answer you and so he says,

788
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:53,000
neither do I answer you?
So Jesus didn't go into detail

789
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,500
about his authority, and I
believe that Eternal Marriage

790
00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:58,100
would have been among the secret
teachings that he taught to his

791
00:45:58,100 --> 00:46:01,100
disciples.
But was it a public teaching?

792
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:04,400
And I would say that there were
early Christians, who didn't

793
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,800
think that Jesus is teachings of
the New Testament.

794
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,400
Contradicted, the idea of an
Eternal Marriage, Killian

795
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,800
believed in Eternal Marriage.
He said, they're really being

796
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,300
one in the Lord because I think
it's incorrect things where it

797
00:46:17,308 --> 00:46:20,400
says, neither is The Man Without
The woman in the Lord and so he

798
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,000
thought that there was room for
it in Christian theology.

799
00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:29,500
So interesting, Would you say,
would you say this is my comment

800
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:32,000
on that?
Yeah.

801
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,400
Go ahead.
Oh no I'm First Corinthians

802
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,600
Jacob just fraud of First
Corinthians, right?

803
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,900
And quotes Paul saying that a
man is not without the woman in

804
00:46:38,900 --> 00:46:41,100
the Lord and neither is a woman
without the man.

805
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,400
This is so interesting to me and
I want to I want to harp on a

806
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,000
pet peeve of mine.
It's I think that's First

807
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,300
Corinthians chapter 11 the first
few verses.

808
00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:53,900
And that what Jacob quoted is
preceded by something that I

809
00:46:53,908 --> 00:46:58,000
think is absolutely profound and
Mormon circles right now.

810
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,400
Because Paul says Brethren, I
would exhort that you keep the

811
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,600
Winces as I delivered them unto
you, remember that the head of

812
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:10,000
woman is the man that had of man
is Christ and the head of Christ

813
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,600
is God.
And and so there's like this

814
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,100
height is there's a marriage
hierarchy you know, and love

815
00:47:17,100 --> 00:47:18,700
will be tiant's, that's listed
there.

816
00:47:19,100 --> 00:47:22,500
And I love how he proceeds that
with keep the ordinances.

817
00:47:22,500 --> 00:47:26,800
As I delivered them unto you in
the temple context, there is a

818
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,000
law that says that you Covenant,
to make according to according

819
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,700
to that pattern, the church
church.

820
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:35,200
The LDS church has since changed
that I think it's, you know,

821
00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:38,500
it's very much in the New
Testament context.

822
00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:43,100
I think that fits with Mormon
theology that way when you take

823
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:46,700
the statement that a man isn't
without the woman, and the woman

824
00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:50,100
isn't without the man and those
other scriptures about hierarchy

825
00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:52,300
and Authority.
I think that blends very well

826
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:56,700
with, you know, we we are, we
are trying to become one, you

827
00:47:56,700 --> 00:47:58,100
know.
And how do we do that?

828
00:47:58,100 --> 00:48:02,900
You know, the criteria of the
woman Yes, mr.

829
00:48:02,900 --> 00:48:07,000
Husband, and righteousness the,
the husband submits to Christ

830
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:10,300
and following his Commandments,
and all things and then you

831
00:48:10,300 --> 00:48:11,300
know, in Christ.
What did he do?

832
00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:14,200
He followed, he did everything
that the father told him to do,

833
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,200
you know, and through that we
either can't move, we become

834
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,800
one.
And so this might be a good

835
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:24,400
place to just because Mo a lot
of evangelicals /.

836
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,100
Catholics who listen to this or
probably not even going to think

837
00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:29,200
of this.
But you guys believe Jesus was

838
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,800
married, right?
Absolutely, yes.

839
00:48:33,700 --> 00:48:37,400
Okay, cool.
I actually just got through

840
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:42,900
Ogden crowds book on that and
so, you know, it's interesting

841
00:48:42,900 --> 00:48:46,700
stuff.
One of the things I guess I

842
00:48:46,707 --> 00:48:49,400
wrestle with his.
I mean, you have this, I guess

843
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:54,900
this tradition within rabbis,
having to be married, but For

844
00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:57,600
me, you don't necessarily see it
in the New Testament.

845
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,200
So I really had to think to
myself.

846
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,200
Alright, would this change
anything for me?

847
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,200
If I found out Jesus was married
and I asked some Catholic

848
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,200
friends who are just like,
absolutely the Christian faith

849
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,300
is the bunk.
I'm like, well, why I mean?

850
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:14,500
Marriage is a natural thing.
It's a beautiful thing and then

851
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,600
upon examining this, I learned
Paul was married.

852
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,200
That was like a big thing.
They're like, holy crud.

853
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,300
This is, this is amazing.
Like, because I always, We

854
00:49:24,300 --> 00:49:27,200
thought he was like a celibate,
you know, you have that teaching

855
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,200
and printing.
So which is Corinthians 8 or

856
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,800
Corinthians chapter 9 where he
says that?

857
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,000
Don't we have the right to lead
a wife with us.

858
00:49:37,500 --> 00:49:40,500
The brothers of Jesus, and the
other Apostles did, I think that

859
00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:47,500
might be in Philippians flipping
seven, maybe Corinthians Keys

860
00:49:47,500 --> 00:49:49,200
more.
So talking to like, the widows

861
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:54,400
of the church and he, you know,
he basically says I desire,

862
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:59,400
everyone to be like myself that
he's unmarried, it's so that

863
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,300
Doctrine has become may be the
centerfold amongst forth and

864
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:10,000
Oscar, she and I said that small
low as to say like to be

865
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,400
unmarried is more spiritual and
then Luther Kind of changed

866
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,100
that.
Obviously, you got as soon as he

867
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:17,800
left the Catholic church, he
married a Roman Catholic nun

868
00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:20,400
nun.
And so the marriage is state is

869
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:26,000
viewed as spiritual.
And so I don't have a negative

870
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,800
view of that.
I'm willing to challenge myself

871
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:29,600
on it.
Go ahead.

872
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:31,400
Can I say just a few things
here?

873
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,700
Because this this has been super
fascinating one thing I'll say

874
00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:38,600
is that Is plenty of references
to Jesus being married even in

875
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,400
the New Testament.
I had a good buddy and I'm glad

876
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,800
that that I have this
opportunity whose dad was a

877
00:50:44,808 --> 00:50:50,400
rabbi and we would sit down for
hours and talk about the

878
00:50:50,408 --> 00:50:55,600
scriptures and one thing that he
brought up that you know led him

879
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,700
to believe that Jesus was
married was the way that it was

880
00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:02,800
either marry or Martha.
I can't remember forgive me but

881
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:07,300
after Lazarus dies she Comes out
and she reims.

882
00:51:07,300 --> 00:51:10,000
The savior in front of
everybody, right?

883
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,000
If you'd have been here, this
would not have happened if you'd

884
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,300
have been around.
And, and the way this was

885
00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:20,200
described to me as like, you
don't speak to a religious

886
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:25,000
leader like that, especially a
man in that time period and get

887
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,300
away with it, unless he's your
husband.

888
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:37,000
The other one, the other one is
in the the marriage Feast where

889
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,300
Jesus first, miracle happens.
Mary the mother of Jesus comes

890
00:51:42,300 --> 00:51:45,800
to Jesus very upset about the
wine, right?

891
00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:51,900
It was the groom's parents
responsibilities Supply, the

892
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:57,700
wine at a marriage ceremony So
it could have been his brother

893
00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:00,100
but it also could have been him
as well.

894
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:03,600
So I think there's a luge ins
there but we're not going to

895
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:09,600
pick that up unless we have a
semi working knowledge of Jewish

896
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,700
custom and Jewish Jewish
tradition, you know, it's

897
00:52:13,700 --> 00:52:17,200
interesting and I don't know how
true this is because I've been

898
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,900
kind of a lot of this stuff is
brand-new to me.

899
00:52:19,900 --> 00:52:23,600
And so, like hearing Jesus is
married, was kind of like, what

900
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,300
the heck is going on here?
But as I looked into Jewish

901
00:52:28,300 --> 00:52:31,300
custom, I think there's some
strains of Jewish tradition,

902
00:52:31,300 --> 00:52:33,400
that believe the Messiah will be
married.

903
00:52:33,500 --> 00:52:37,700
Could be wrong about that, but
that's, that's totally true.

904
00:52:37,700 --> 00:52:41,000
Kevin crowd is told the story
before where he said that some

905
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,700
Jews actually, reject Jesus
being the Messiah because he had

906
00:52:44,700 --> 00:52:47,200
the Messiah has to be married.
You know, he has to be keeping

907
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,800
all the Commandments and so,
and, and part of it is because

908
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:55,000
of, I think Isaiah speaks as
Isaiah 53.

909
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,600
I think we're Talks about, he
will see his offspring.

910
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,500
So he and so Christians have
spiritual eyes that and say, oh,

911
00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:05,300
seeing his seed seeing his
offspring.

912
00:53:05,300 --> 00:53:08,300
That's his, you know, that's
just the church that's, you

913
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:11,900
know, his disciples and
spiritual followers but the Jews

914
00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:15,500
interpret that very literally as
being his literal Offspring.

915
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:21,700
So and just to be clear because
there is a strain of like I'm

916
00:53:21,700 --> 00:53:24,300
sorry to cut you off Gnostic
teaching that says like DaVinci

917
00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:27,600
Code bloodline.
Do you guys go down that route

918
00:53:27,700 --> 00:53:30,100
or is that like something you
guys like?

919
00:53:30,900 --> 00:53:33,500
Because there are people who
like kind of obsessed about that

920
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:35,600
stuff like, oh, Jesus would
really married and there's some

921
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,100
blood lines that you can find
and they're really the world or

922
00:53:39,107 --> 00:53:41,000
something like that, you know.
Like some crazy stuff.

923
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:45,300
Listen to Michael and Sean
Anderson's podcast they did with

924
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:47,200
Dave were Sean goes into all
that.

925
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,000
It was really cool you know.
I don't Sean to do great

926
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,400
treatment on that.
I don't think it's a rabbit hole

927
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,900
for Mormonism, right?
I think it might be a rabbit

928
00:53:56,900 --> 00:54:01,600
hole for putting in quotations
and I don't mean this by any

929
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,400
disrespect, my William was all
good traditional Christianity.

930
00:54:06,700 --> 00:54:10,700
It might be way bigger of an
issue than it is for Mormons,

931
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,200
right?
Because there is such an

932
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,500
emphasis placed on Eternal
Marriage and eternal family.

933
00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:20,600
So with with that in mind, we
don't necessarily have to go

934
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:25,500
down, quote, The Rabbit Hole.
Hmm, to find that perfect.

935
00:54:25,700 --> 00:54:28,200
Acceptable.
Does that make sense sure?

936
00:54:28,300 --> 00:54:30,900
Yeah, absolutely.
And what you were talking about

937
00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:35,800
extra-canonical sources and I
would say this and I'm actually

938
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,200
going to have a podcast with
another gentleman I'd done

939
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:42,900
before about Mormon teachings
within the Apocrypha right now.

940
00:54:42,900 --> 00:54:46,900
You always got to be somewhat
careful with the Apocrypha but I

941
00:54:46,908 --> 00:54:50,200
don't know about anybody else.
I am a firm believer in the

942
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,700
truth.
Has a certain ring to it and I

943
00:54:52,707 --> 00:54:57,400
think there is treasure there to
be found and And one of those is

944
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:01,100
a book within the Apocrypha and
don't quote me, I you'll hear

945
00:55:01,100 --> 00:55:04,100
more about it in the next
podcast but I believe it was the

946
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,700
pistol.
Sofia, that talked about, these

947
00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:11,600
are the things that Jesus talked
about in his 40 days during his

948
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,600
resurrection and some of that
had to do with marriage as well,

949
00:55:16,900 --> 00:55:23,600
you know, and Michael go ahead.
Yeah, I mean, listen, I really

950
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,100
this this Doctrine in
particular, really Arms me

951
00:55:26,100 --> 00:55:28,900
because I really had to ask
myself.

952
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:31,100
Would it change anything?
And it absolutely wouldn't

953
00:55:31,100 --> 00:55:33,600
change anything.
And I have like a lot of

954
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,400
Catholic friends and so I know
one of their pushbacks are is

955
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,600
going to be.
You don't see it really in

956
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,700
scripture, although it, maybe
you gave those two examples and

957
00:55:42,700 --> 00:55:44,600
there's probably more that you
would pull out.

958
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,800
But what about the early church?
Is there any type of evidence?

959
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,700
Early church, you know, pre
Nicene collars or anything like

960
00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:53,400
that?
Michael.

961
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,500
You had something.
I'm going to let you take this

962
00:55:55,500 --> 00:56:00,200
and then Jacob.
Don't have an address.

963
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,600
Your question that you just read
barely asked bill but I did have

964
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,700
comments.
You know, the other thing with

965
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,700
what is this a rabbit hole?
I just wanted to share an

966
00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:12,800
anecdote from.
It's very much, a reminiscent of

967
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,000
old school Mormonism and I'm
very shocked.

968
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,600
I saw it in my own life when I
was serving a mission for the

969
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:21,700
church they, you know, we have a
mission conference and some

970
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:24,500
authorities came.
And for those in the church who

971
00:56:24,500 --> 00:56:28,900
are listening to this, you know
this was the wife of Elder,

972
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:33,500
Larry Lawrence of the 70s, gave
this talk and the so sister

973
00:56:33,500 --> 00:56:37,300
Lawrence was talking to us
missionaries about how it's the

974
00:56:37,300 --> 00:56:39,800
blood of Israel.
Yeah she called him the doctrine

975
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,400
of believing blood and it's the
blood of Israel that you know

976
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,300
because of the Covenant that God
made with Abraham and because

977
00:56:47,300 --> 00:56:53,300
God has respect to that Covenant
that those as with the literal

978
00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:57,700
bloodline of that Covenant will
hear and receive a testimony

979
00:56:57,700 --> 00:57:00,800
regarding the truth of the
gospel and and will become

980
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,900
converted by the Holy Ghost.
You know, I didn't know be led

981
00:57:03,900 --> 00:57:06,200
to do the things like baptism
and you entering into the

982
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:11,400
kingdom of God and in early
Mormonism, one of my favorite

983
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,700
quotes from Orson Heights kind
of touched his on this and he

984
00:57:14,700 --> 00:57:18,500
says you know we will find out
that God in reality is you are

985
00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:22,200
father or grandfather or
great-grandfather and those who

986
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,400
do not Believe this doctrine
that is because they have none

987
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,300
of the blood of Christ in them,
you know, meaning that they

988
00:57:28,308 --> 00:57:30,400
didn't have.
They were not going to believe

989
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,200
that because they didn't have
the believing blood.

990
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:37,100
So I always thought that was a
fascinating element in Mormon

991
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:39,800
Doctrine.
And I was very shocked as a 20

992
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,200
year old 6 years ago.
Hearing that in a modern Church

993
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:49,500
setting for missionaries.
Absolutely a must I can text me.

994
00:57:49,500 --> 00:57:51,500
Is that something you guys
believe that you would have to

995
00:57:51,500 --> 00:57:55,800
have the blood of The believer,
is that something not?

996
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:57,500
So this is really the blood of
Christ.

997
00:57:57,500 --> 00:58:00,400
But the blood of Israel was, is
an advantage.

998
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,700
I would say to hearing and
receiving a testimony and being

999
00:58:03,700 --> 00:58:08,500
converted by the Holy Ghost.
So a lot of early Mormons

1000
00:58:08,500 --> 00:58:11,400
believe that, you know, that
they said that Joseph Smith

1001
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:15,000
taught that, you know, they were
the seed of Christ and I found

1002
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:21,100
that to be, you know it sounds
hard to believe except the the

1003
00:58:21,100 --> 00:58:24,100
Traditions when you get into
Kind of these Jesus was married

1004
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:27,800
and had Offspring.
The Traditions are that the

1005
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,300
psalm 45 was flipped build where
Jesus is descendants, married

1006
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,800
and became royalty.
And Europe is fulfilling the

1007
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:41,500
Kings, you know, your instead of
your descendants, your posterity

1008
00:58:41,500 --> 00:58:45,600
will be royalty basically.
And because, because, this

1009
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,500
property, they believed that his
descendants went into Europe and

1010
00:58:48,500 --> 00:58:52,300
the royalty or the earliest
royalty, and the ancient century

1011
00:58:52,500 --> 00:58:58,100
These were the descendants of
Christ and the upper classes in

1012
00:58:58,100 --> 00:59:00,800
Europe actually out bread, the
lower classes.

1013
00:59:01,300 --> 00:59:04,900
And so actually there would have
been a genetic replacement of

1014
00:59:06,500 --> 00:59:10,900
most of Europe, through the
centuries of the outbreeding

1015
00:59:10,900 --> 00:59:13,200
basically the upper class
outbreeding, the lower class.

1016
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,000
And so that's makes it more
believable.

1017
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:19,300
In my opinion, this idea of that
Jesus blood line actually mixed

1018
00:59:19,300 --> 00:59:24,800
with the seed of Ephraim we
Mormons Leave that kind of

1019
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,700
British Israeli ISM.
It is kind of the concept that

1020
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:30,600
is kind of been incorporated
into Mormonism and that the

1021
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,600
blood of Israel is throughout
Europe and that we are the

1022
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,600
descendants of Ephraim, which
was the chosen Birthright,

1023
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:43,100
according to the Old Testament.
So sorry, that was a little does

1024
00:59:43,100 --> 00:59:45,200
just a tangent.
No, no lasting.

1025
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,000
That's all right cause I'm about
to go on one here for just a

1026
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:49,300
second to.
There we go.

1027
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,100
I think I think it's important
to also in this this Discussion.

1028
00:59:53,300 --> 00:59:58,000
Because when you start talking
about the blood of Israel coming

1029
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,600
over to the new world, right?
You have it both in the Book of

1030
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:05,000
Mormon, we believe that, but if
you look back at the early

1031
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,900
founders of the country,
especially if you go back to

1032
01:00:09,908 --> 01:00:13,300
like Winthrop, right?
If you go read, Winthrop City on

1033
01:00:13,300 --> 01:00:17,000
the hill speech.
And just, you know, check that

1034
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,300
against like, passages out of
the Book of Mormon where Alma's

1035
01:00:20,300 --> 01:00:22,000
baptizing at the Waters of
Mormon.

1036
01:00:22,500 --> 01:00:26,600
It's the same Covenant, right?
And went through up talks about,

1037
01:00:26,700 --> 01:00:32,300
you know, if we if we Embrace
these covenants and we live up

1038
01:00:32,300 --> 01:00:35,400
to these covenants, we can
expect the god of Israel to

1039
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:40,200
dwell amongst us.
So even those coming across at

1040
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:44,600
the very beginning of the
settlement of the new world in

1041
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:49,000
the, you know, latter half of
the back, 2,000 years since

1042
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,400
Christ.
They definitely saw themselves

1043
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,500
as a continuation.
Action of the story of Israel,

1044
01:00:54,500 --> 01:01:00,000
which I find absolutely amazing
biliary answering these for you.

1045
01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:03,700
Yeah, feel free to dive in
deeper and you know what's up

1046
01:01:03,700 --> 01:01:06,300
for not getting?
I'm not, I'm not here.

1047
01:01:06,300 --> 01:01:10,300
I'm here to learn, and I'm here
not to push my own perspective

1048
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,700
and just just hear what you guys
believe and be good with that.

1049
01:01:14,700 --> 01:01:20,500
And so, you know, I'm taking
notes going to dive into this

1050
01:01:20,500 --> 01:01:24,000
stuff and continue.
You know, I just want to make

1051
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:25,900
sure that we're answering your
questions here.

1052
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,600
Absolutely now.
Yeah, we kind of, we kind of

1053
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,700
went off on a tangent with the
last one about evidence for

1054
01:01:32,700 --> 01:01:36,900
Jesus being married and you were
asking about the church fathers

1055
01:01:36,900 --> 01:01:38,400
or if there's anything outside
of the New Testament.

1056
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:39,800
Sure.
Yeah.

1057
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:43,700
And I would say that there isn't
actually any thing among the

1058
01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:47,400
earliest Christians on that,
they believe that the pot they

1059
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,400
took for granted that the
apostles were married men but

1060
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,800
they didn't seem to I'm too, I
think Clement of Alexandria

1061
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,300
believe that Jesus wasn't
married but you know, that's

1062
01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:00,300
getting that he's the first one
to kind of imply that and that's

1063
01:02:00,300 --> 01:02:04,300
getting like to the end of the
about 200 ad.

1064
01:02:04,300 --> 01:02:09,800
So that's over 150 years later.
So what Orson High believed and

1065
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,800
said, was that The Offspring of
Christ would have been kept a

1066
01:02:12,808 --> 01:02:16,400
secret, his family would have
been kept hidden knowledge and

1067
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,800
so that they wouldn't befall the
same fate that has befallen many

1068
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,100
other.
Families basically throughout

1069
01:02:24,100 --> 01:02:26,400
the ages, in the history of the
world.

1070
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:31,000
And so the children would have
been kept secret in Orson.

1071
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:35,200
Hide also commented on the New
Testament saying that if Jesus

1072
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:38,400
was at married then Mary and
Martha following him around

1073
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,600
everywhere.
These women combing, his hair,

1074
01:02:40,900 --> 01:02:43,300
and washing, his feet would be
very inappropriate.

1075
01:02:43,300 --> 01:02:47,000
And he said, even in today's
world, like the modern Christian

1076
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,700
world, would probably ride him
on a rail if you were to come

1077
01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:53,900
and have women fondling, Tim
Cook anointing, the anointing

1078
01:02:53,900 --> 01:02:57,800
them with precious oil Etc.
He would be mobs tarred and

1079
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,100
feathered and brode, not on an
ass, but on a rail as what Orson

1080
01:03:01,100 --> 01:03:06,100
Heights said on that.
And then I do think there is in

1081
01:03:06,100 --> 01:03:07,900
Mormonism.
We emphasize marriage.

1082
01:03:07,900 --> 01:03:11,400
So important because of Eternal
Marriage but early, Christianity

1083
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,000
really had their was placed in
the church for people who were

1084
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,300
single as well was.
Another thing there are people

1085
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:20,800
who could be called, by God to
not be married, is something

1086
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,700
that I see.
In the early Christian rice,

1087
01:03:23,700 --> 01:03:26,600
That's goes back to Jesus, where
Jesus said that some will be

1088
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:32,600
made eunuchs for the kingdom
sake and and we Mormon sometimes

1089
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,100
lose sight of that.
But Brigham Young made several

1090
01:03:35,100 --> 01:03:37,800
comments on occasions that yes
we're commanded to live polygamy

1091
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:42,000
but if God we're to command us
to be single and to be without a

1092
01:03:42,008 --> 01:03:44,600
family and preach the gospel,
our whole lives, we should be

1093
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,500
equally willing to do that if
God commanded us to do that.

1094
01:03:48,700 --> 01:03:50,100
This leads.
Perfect.

1095
01:03:50,100 --> 01:03:53,600
My next question.
So we believe I mean, you guys

1096
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,500
believe Jesus had multiple wives
or which is Mary and Martha,

1097
01:03:56,500 --> 01:03:57,400
right?
Yeah.

1098
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,100
Okay.
And so my next question is

1099
01:04:00,100 --> 01:04:04,700
regarding polygamy.
If polygamy is something to be

1100
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:07,700
sought.
After why does Paul say the

1101
01:04:07,700 --> 01:04:11,700
Elders of the church?
Should just be of One Life and

1102
01:04:11,700 --> 01:04:17,900
then also in First Corinthians
7:1, he says it's good not to

1103
01:04:17,900 --> 01:04:21,000
marry.
Well, so if how would you guys

1104
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:23,200
respond to that?
Whose turn is it?

1105
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,300
Michael's are Jacobs turn, I
can't remember Jacob's.

1106
01:04:27,700 --> 01:04:31,800
Okay, Jacob Europe, I'm so for
that one.

1107
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,300
There's different Mormon
perspectives on the be, the

1108
01:04:34,300 --> 01:04:38,600
husband of one wife of a wife in
the New Testament, where it says

1109
01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:42,300
about the priesthood in the
Journal of discourses or some

1110
01:04:42,300 --> 01:04:46,000
hype actually preaches.
A sermon saying that he his

1111
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,300
opinion on that it is that they
were living.

1112
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,400
In Roman society, with monogamy
being the law.

1113
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,900
And so if they were living
polygamy, they would have had to

1114
01:04:54,900 --> 01:04:57,400
have kept it a secret and he
said, just like, we had to keep

1115
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:00,300
it a secret and Nabu when we
were living under the Gentile

1116
01:05:00,300 --> 01:05:03,100
law there and the Brigham Young
actually got up right after

1117
01:05:03,100 --> 01:05:07,600
Orson hide and he said, I don't
interpret that passage in the

1118
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:11,200
New Testament, the way Elder
High does, he says, I see it as

1119
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,000
saying according to the context
that verse that says that he

1120
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,600
must have a wife to prove that
he can manage a family in

1121
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,900
righteousness.
Before he can be trusted to

1122
01:05:19,900 --> 01:05:22,900
manage a Church of God.
And so it's the Brigham Young

1123
01:05:22,900 --> 01:05:25,100
said, it's not saying he can
only have one wife.

1124
01:05:25,100 --> 01:05:27,600
It's saying he must have at
least one wife.

1125
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:31,200
And so the Greek is kind of
actually just the Greek.

1126
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:32,800
You can interpret it a number of
ways.

1127
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:37,300
It could either mean never been
divorced or and you know, only

1128
01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:42,200
only been married.
It could mean, you know, not, I

1129
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,800
actually think Joshua Erickson
touched on this and in one of

1130
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,200
his pockets are not going to
tell anyone to have to.

1131
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,400
Dig through the for our
interview with Dave on that but

1132
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:54,600
hey that was a great episode.
That was a good episode.

1133
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,400
But yeah there's the number of
different ways and I agree with

1134
01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:03,100
Brigham Young that contextually
the versus just saying that the

1135
01:06:03,900 --> 01:06:06,800
priesthood should be married to
demonstrate that, you know, that

1136
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,700
they can handle a family and
righteousness before they can be

1137
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,700
entrusted with the flock of God.
And if Michael has anything you

1138
01:06:12,700 --> 01:06:17,200
want sad, I don't have it.
I couldn't say that better than

1139
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:19,100
myself.
I thought that was Tastic.

1140
01:06:21,300 --> 01:06:25,800
Obviously, I've you With the
Eternal plan of the Gospel that

1141
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,200
when I see statements like that
in the New Testament, I have to

1142
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,100
say, there's more there, that's
not obvious.

1143
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,100
You know, because I, you know, I
have a testimony very firmly

1144
01:06:34,100 --> 01:06:36,000
that it's that it's a good thing
to be married.

1145
01:06:36,300 --> 01:06:39,500
But also there was another verse
there, that you mentioned Bill,

1146
01:06:39,500 --> 01:06:43,300
where it's, you know, that you
should that's good.

1147
01:06:43,300 --> 01:06:47,500
Not to marry.
And I think, you know, I've

1148
01:06:47,500 --> 01:06:50,900
heard some people explain and I
like the state because I have

1149
01:06:50,900 --> 01:06:56,600
been a missionary before is that
You there's a certain blessing

1150
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,800
attached to being so focused and
not have to provide for the

1151
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:01,500
temple.
Well, temporal welfare of a

1152
01:07:01,500 --> 01:07:05,600
family that you can go and just
preach the gospel and not worry

1153
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:09,200
about certain things and and
just be completely consecrated

1154
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:13,900
to that and it makes it easier
in that circumstance of being

1155
01:07:13,900 --> 01:07:17,600
single, you know, to that.
And that's why the church calls

1156
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,000
young men to go.
Serve missions and not married

1157
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:24,300
men anymore, although I don't
think Think that they should

1158
01:07:24,300 --> 01:07:29,700
have made that you know a hard
rule by any means.

1159
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:34,300
I think there probably were more
successful in the early days

1160
01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:37,300
having experienced married.
Men also go on missions

1161
01:07:37,300 --> 01:07:41,700
personally.
Yeah, this, this is actually an

1162
01:07:41,700 --> 01:07:45,300
interesting topic and we could
we could spend some time here.

1163
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:50,800
Regarding just marriage in
general.

1164
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:56,100
You know so much of the early
Christian Church is like people

1165
01:07:56,100 --> 01:08:00,800
like Jerome they value virginity
on this level that's almost

1166
01:08:00,900 --> 01:08:04,500
absurd and it's more byproduct
of the culture.

1167
01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:07,800
They're living in with the
Greeks and Romans and the

1168
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:12,700
priesthood that they have.
And so you know looking into

1169
01:08:12,700 --> 01:08:17,100
this Luther actually performed a
polygamous marriage.

1170
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:25,700
Judge and much to the maybe joy
of the Catholic church because

1171
01:08:25,700 --> 01:08:28,600
they use that to say well look
so you can see the movement.

1172
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:32,300
He starting he's, you know you
know, bringing back polygamy and

1173
01:08:32,300 --> 01:08:36,500
so Luther actually had a search.
The scriptures and said, I can't

1174
01:08:36,500 --> 01:08:38,200
say I see anything wrong with
it.

1175
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:41,500
And so that's kind of where I
wouldn't necessarily say.

1176
01:08:41,700 --> 01:08:45,700
I view it as something that
should be sought after but I

1177
01:08:45,700 --> 01:08:49,600
can't say like just Scriptural.
I can't say it's sinful because

1178
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:54,500
God blesses people with polygamy
and so that's been an

1179
01:08:54,500 --> 01:08:58,700
interesting eye-opener.
I was unaware that that Luther

1180
01:08:58,700 --> 01:09:00,600
actually performed a plural
marriage.

1181
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,600
That's that's interesting.
The either you guys know that

1182
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:10,500
Miker Jacob I knew he talked
about how he couldn't find a

1183
01:09:10,500 --> 01:09:12,899
problem with this scripturally
when it was brought up.

1184
01:09:12,899 --> 01:09:14,500
But I didn't know that.
He actually went ahead and

1185
01:09:14,500 --> 01:09:17,899
perform the marriage.
Yeah, that was actually new to

1186
01:09:17,899 --> 01:09:19,300
me.
I knew that he argued it.

1187
01:09:19,300 --> 01:09:22,600
Theoretically, I didn't know
that he actually performed it

1188
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:25,200
until fairly recently.
That wasn't the case.

1189
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,899
I think of what was it the
context that the man couldn't

1190
01:09:28,899 --> 01:09:32,500
have children with his wife.
And so, yeah, he was a political

1191
01:09:32,500 --> 01:09:34,000
figure.
He was like a princess today.

1192
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:38,700
Stop.
Yeah I would.

1193
01:09:38,700 --> 01:09:43,399
And so that's scripturally on
that, you know much like Luther

1194
01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:48,000
probably saw, you know.
With Abraham's promise is truly

1195
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:51,000
interesting because, you know,
he married Hagar, you know, his

1196
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,700
second wife and because of
domestic disputes.

1197
01:09:54,700 --> 01:09:58,100
She was just she left the house
and an angel of the Lord came

1198
01:09:58,100 --> 01:10:01,600
back and told her you know go
back to your fate you know.

1199
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:05,900
And you go back to Sarah, go
back to Abraham and then the

1200
01:10:05,900 --> 01:10:09,600
Lord came the Abraham right
after that and made this

1201
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,600
Covenant with something that
your seed, your children will be

1202
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:14,600
more numerous than the stars in
heaven.

1203
01:10:14,700 --> 01:10:19,100
Now beeper, He commands them to
be perfect but what that the

1204
01:10:19,100 --> 01:10:23,600
angel just did told Hagar go
back and be in their family and,

1205
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:25,500
you know, they would have a
really great time for you to the

1206
01:10:25,500 --> 01:10:28,500
angel or the Lord making that
Covenant, with Abraham to say,

1207
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,300
there's an obstacle here,
preventing you from being

1208
01:10:31,300 --> 01:10:33,700
perfect, Abraham.
That's the fact that you're, you

1209
01:10:33,700 --> 01:10:37,100
know, second wife, you know, and
but no it was blessed and

1210
01:10:37,100 --> 01:10:42,700
Ishmael, you know, the receives
huge blessings just by being

1211
01:10:42,700 --> 01:10:44,500
associated with his father by
lineage.

1212
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:50,700
Yeah, I think I think it's also
important here to point out that

1213
01:10:50,700 --> 01:10:55,900
oftentimes because of the way
it's translated the word perfect

1214
01:10:55,900 --> 01:11:00,100
is often used in.
It's the it's the same word that

1215
01:11:00,100 --> 01:11:05,200
can be used for whole, right?
And so, I think, sometimes we

1216
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:07,300
can get hung up on that word,
perfect.

1217
01:11:07,300 --> 01:11:10,900
And maybe, because of our
Western definition were like,

1218
01:11:10,900 --> 01:11:13,500
okay, we, you know, we need to
be.

1219
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:16,300
No, no, be whole Be whole,
right?

1220
01:11:16,300 --> 01:11:19,200
And and I think that that
Michael points out something

1221
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:24,300
beautiful there, that I think, I
think he's telling telling

1222
01:11:24,300 --> 01:11:28,000
Abraham be whole be a husband.
Be a husband twice.

1223
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:32,100
Be a father twice, right?
Bebe whole, I think there's

1224
01:11:32,100 --> 01:11:33,700
there's a certain Beauty to
that.

1225
01:11:35,900 --> 01:11:39,400
One comment, I'd like to add on,
you know, when we look at

1226
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:43,200
Genesis and we see these men who
walked and talked and with God

1227
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:46,600
and were given great blessings
from God living plural marriage,

1228
01:11:47,900 --> 01:11:51,400
you know, so one of the common
objections is look at the

1229
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:55,000
marital difficulties that
existed with Abraham and Hagar.

1230
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:59,300
Look at the conflicts and
problems in Jacobs family, you

1231
01:11:59,308 --> 01:12:03,000
know, that shows that polygamy.
You know, these bad stories are

1232
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:04,500
evidence.
That plagued me obviously.

1233
01:12:04,700 --> 01:12:07,300
That great thing.
But yeah, that's the case.

1234
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:13,100
When you see the story of Esau
and Isaac and the story of

1235
01:12:13,100 --> 01:12:17,100
Joseph and his siblings, there's
conflict and violence, and

1236
01:12:17,100 --> 01:12:19,800
threats of violence, between
those those children.

1237
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:22,100
So, clearly, God is putting
those stories in there to tell

1238
01:12:22,100 --> 01:12:23,800
us that we should only have one
child.

1239
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,600
That's, that's the reason God's
having those stories of conflict

1240
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,800
with multiple children, is
because you only wants us to

1241
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,100
have one child.
I thought that was a clever

1242
01:12:33,100 --> 01:12:37,200
rebuttal to the nope.
You brought up a good point, so

1243
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:40,200
I made a post on Facebook
regarding that.

1244
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:43,700
So I got a lot of pushback,
visceral like visceral reactions

1245
01:12:43,700 --> 01:12:45,700
on this topic, which is kind of
surprising.

1246
01:12:45,700 --> 01:12:49,300
But people were messaging me.
And one of the questions I got

1247
01:12:49,300 --> 01:12:54,000
was ad when God instituted
marriage, he did it between Adam

1248
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,200
and even somewhat.
So, the New Covenant is kind of

1249
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:03,100
coming back to that perspective.
As to say like Israel got lost

1250
01:13:03,100 --> 01:13:07,000
in the wilderness.
Polygamy was allowed because

1251
01:13:08,500 --> 01:13:10,900
just culturally it was hard to
survive.

1252
01:13:10,900 --> 01:13:15,000
But now as we you know, in the
age of the church, we're going

1253
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:17,200
back to that thing between Adam
and Eve.

1254
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:21,200
How would you respond to God?
Just instituting instituting,

1255
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:24,200
the marriage between Adam and
he's Michael.

1256
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,200
I think that's on, it's your
turn buddy.

1257
01:13:27,700 --> 01:13:33,100
That's a that's a tough one.
I would say specifically, you

1258
01:13:33,100 --> 01:13:37,000
know, we're Christianity for
sure, you know and Mormonism

1259
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:41,500
being adjacent to that in this
context is looking for a

1260
01:13:41,500 --> 01:13:45,000
millennial Earth.
And what accompanies the the

1261
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:47,400
transformation of this Earth
until Millennial Earth is the

1262
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:50,400
city of Zion company or the New
Jerusalem that comes down from

1263
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:54,500
heaven.
And literally it's got Gates

1264
01:13:54,500 --> 01:13:59,300
named after the polygamous Sons,
you know, you know, go and this

1265
01:13:59,300 --> 01:14:03,800
is this is symbolic of The new
and Everlasting Covenant, you

1266
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:08,900
know these, We Believe.
You know, in the restored Gospel

1267
01:14:08,900 --> 01:14:11,700
of these promises.
Yeah.

1268
01:14:11,700 --> 01:14:13,400
You can find these types and
shadows with these.

1269
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:17,100
These these these hearken back
to these promises that you can

1270
01:14:17,100 --> 01:14:21,300
inherit the same glories that
Abraham Isaac and Jacob had by

1271
01:14:21,300 --> 01:14:23,400
doing the works of Abraham, you
know.

1272
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:25,900
And then if you want to be like
God, you need to do the works of

1273
01:14:25,900 --> 01:14:27,000
Abraham.
Yeah.

1274
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:29,500
I think goes back to what Dave
is saying about being whole, you

1275
01:14:29,500 --> 01:14:32,400
know, how can you expect to be
whole less you do and Abraham

1276
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:35,600
did to be whole, you know?
And so, when you look at those

1277
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:39,700
things in the context Even in a
covenant structure.

1278
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:45,700
When you know, God gave this God
gave his Covenant to Israel and

1279
01:14:45,700 --> 01:14:49,000
what happened after Solomon
died, the kingdom split and you

1280
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,500
can see and Hosea and other
scriptures that gone maintains

1281
01:14:52,500 --> 01:14:55,600
this Covenant relationship with
two women, two wives, two

1282
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:58,500
Nations, yeah.
Israel in the northern kingdom

1283
01:14:58,500 --> 01:15:00,000
and Judah and the southern
Kingdom.

1284
01:15:00,100 --> 01:15:04,500
And he treats them both like
wives and he speaks to them like

1285
01:15:04,500 --> 01:15:08,800
that and he, you know, he he
talks to Judah like you're more

1286
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:13,400
faithful than your sister Israel
and who's backsliding and going

1287
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,800
after Abominations and whoring
after other gods you know she's

1288
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:20,500
cheating on me because and that
that Motif is the same thing

1289
01:15:20,500 --> 01:15:22,600
with the church and
Christianity.

1290
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:24,500
That the church is the bride of
Christ.

1291
01:15:24,700 --> 01:15:28,300
Well, Israel and Judah were the
were the brides and wives of

1292
01:15:28,300 --> 01:15:30,900
God, you know?
And so and it's so interesting

1293
01:15:30,900 --> 01:15:34,300
to me to see this Covenant
relationship is repeated, you

1294
01:15:34,300 --> 01:15:37,200
know, in types and shadows
throughout the scriptures.

1295
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:40,800
Interesting.
Very interesting.

1296
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:42,200
Jacob, do you have anything to
add?

1297
01:15:43,300 --> 01:15:47,800
Um, I would just say that if,
you know, there is this theory,

1298
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:50,600
that yes polygamy was permitted
in the Old Testament, but the

1299
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:54,100
New Testament is against it, but
the best you got in the New

1300
01:15:54,100 --> 01:15:57,300
Testament, it is kind of
implicit statements that are

1301
01:15:57,300 --> 01:16:01,900
implying against it.
And I think First Corinthians 7

1302
01:16:01,900 --> 01:16:04,800
and the ones you quoted where
they say, husband of one wife

1303
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:09,500
for the priesthood.
And I Nothing really explicit

1304
01:16:09,500 --> 01:16:11,300
and anything.
Jesus said where he said, hey

1305
01:16:11,300 --> 01:16:14,800
we're not supposed to have
plural marriage anymore, so I

1306
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:17,000
would think that there would be
a bit something a bit more

1307
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:20,500
direct if that was, if Jesus was
changing the marriage law, I

1308
01:16:20,500 --> 01:16:23,000
would think there would be
something in the New Testament.

1309
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:25,300
It explicitly staying that in
the instead of.

1310
01:16:25,300 --> 01:16:27,300
And when I met my first
Corinthians 7, where it says,

1311
01:16:27,300 --> 01:16:30,900
let every man have his own wife
and every woman have her own

1312
01:16:30,900 --> 01:16:34,200
husband and defraud not each
other but, you know, take care

1313
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:38,900
of each other and your needs.
And so, Oh, that's not really

1314
01:16:38,900 --> 01:16:41,400
even an explicit.
If that's the strongest, the New

1315
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:43,700
Testament, kind of implying
against polygamy.

1316
01:16:43,700 --> 01:16:46,500
That's not really even that
strong in my opinion.

1317
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:55,700
Interesting.
I can shift gears into a another

1318
01:16:55,800 --> 01:17:00,600
question.
Yeah, let's roll on sticking

1319
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:06,800
with the marriage.
Topic was married with Mary

1320
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:11,200
married to.
Or did she have sexual relations

1321
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:14,600
with God, the Father for the
birth of Jesus?

1322
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:19,700
Is she still his wife mrs.
Rushfield Kingdom I know there's

1323
01:17:19,700 --> 01:17:24,300
that thought there that God the
father took Mary.

1324
01:17:25,100 --> 01:17:28,700
So, hey, this is Dave, this is
how you started our second atom

1325
01:17:28,700 --> 01:17:32,200
God, or if you were really was.
Yeah, I kind of smiled, just

1326
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:34,500
like you just threw that out
there.

1327
01:17:34,500 --> 01:17:36,500
You didn't give me any heads-up
on that question.

1328
01:17:36,500 --> 01:17:39,000
Like okay, that's how we're
starting them, but you're

1329
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:41,300
welcome.
I was going for the effect.

1330
01:17:41,300 --> 01:17:49,400
You're welcome.
So So, so yes, that's the Mormon

1331
01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:54,500
view is that it was a natural
conception and, you know, I've

1332
01:17:54,500 --> 01:17:59,800
seen, I've personally see.
So as I answered today, when he

1333
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:03,700
asked me that back, you know,
months ago in the atom God

1334
01:18:03,700 --> 01:18:07,800
interview, my answer is Mormons,
just believe more in the Luke.

1335
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:10,600
I think it's Luke 1:35.
I think where it says the the

1336
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:15,800
Holy Ghost shall come upon the
power of the most high shall

1337
01:18:15,900 --> 01:18:18,300
overshadow.
The indices shall be called The

1338
01:18:18,300 --> 01:18:22,600
Son of God and so the idea is,
it's not the child of the Holy

1339
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:25,000
Ghost, it's the literal chop
Jesus.

1340
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:28,800
The literal Son of God.
He is literally Divine, and this

1341
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,100
kind of might go into one of
your other questions where he

1342
01:18:31,100 --> 01:18:35,200
said is Jesus both fully God and
fully man.

1343
01:18:35,300 --> 01:18:37,900
Hmm.
And that's part of what Mormons

1344
01:18:37,900 --> 01:18:40,100
believe is.
That he is 100.

1345
01:18:40,100 --> 01:18:43,100
He is The Offspring of God,
literally.

1346
01:18:43,100 --> 01:18:46,400
So he is literally a God In the
Flesh.

1347
01:18:46,500 --> 01:18:49,000
You know, that's The Offspring
of God, the Father.

1348
01:18:49,900 --> 01:18:52,200
All right?
Can I can I maybe do a little

1349
01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:54,200
bit of a gotcha.
Okay.

1350
01:18:54,700 --> 01:18:59,000
And Isaiah 7:14, the prophecy
for Jesus.

1351
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:04,100
It says a virgin shall conceive.
So how could she remain a virgin

1352
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:09,400
if her in the father?
Actually knew each other.

1353
01:19:09,900 --> 01:19:14,200
So that, that's a good question
and that's also in the Book of

1354
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:16,900
Mormon.
So I would say that contextually

1355
01:19:17,300 --> 01:19:22,100
in Isaiah that that originally,
that prophecy is so that the

1356
01:19:22,100 --> 01:19:24,200
early Christians did was, they
would take a lot of Old

1357
01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:28,200
Testament prophecies and
reinterpret.

1358
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:30,500
Real reframe them to Jesus
Christ.

1359
01:19:30,500 --> 01:19:34,900
And so, I think that that
prophecy was actually referring

1360
01:19:34,900 --> 01:19:37,200
to a young according to the
Hebrew it.

1361
01:19:37,300 --> 01:19:40,800
Actually means a young woman, I
understand, according to the

1362
01:19:41,300 --> 01:19:44,900
Jewish texts of that, and not a
virgin, that that word can be

1363
01:19:44,900 --> 01:19:48,200
interpreted interpreted, you
know, different ways and

1364
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:50,600
different time periods.
I understand if you get into the

1365
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:54,800
text role of it and so I
understand the Virgin birth

1366
01:19:54,800 --> 01:20:00,500
tradition and I also mentioned
this to Dave and the other

1367
01:20:00,500 --> 01:20:04,400
podcast where my personal a
theory that I like that I heard

1368
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:07,000
from some other Mormon
fundamentals is because the Book

1369
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:11,300
of Mormon Also talks about she
shall be a virgin and a theory

1370
01:20:11,300 --> 01:20:13,900
is that there's there's
something to there's something

1371
01:20:13,900 --> 01:20:17,100
about the conception of Christ,
that was beyond what we

1372
01:20:17,100 --> 01:20:18,500
understand.
And what we know in this

1373
01:20:18,500 --> 01:20:23,400
mortality in that she was
carried away in the spirit and

1374
01:20:23,500 --> 01:20:30,200
then she is is with the with
with child and so the idea I've

1375
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:33,400
heard is that maybe it wasn't
some spiritual way that God the

1376
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:38,000
father had natural relations
with her and but she Was left.

1377
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:41,300
Physically?
Still a virgin is the the theory

1378
01:20:41,300 --> 01:20:44,300
that I heard that I personally
like us, Michael has any other

1379
01:20:44,300 --> 01:20:49,200
thoughts on that particular?
I don't I have I've heard the

1380
01:20:49,208 --> 01:20:54,700
same as you related regarding
that, the context and the Hebrew

1381
01:20:54,700 --> 01:20:58,900
Hebrew scriptures kind of give a
different connotation and

1382
01:20:58,900 --> 01:21:01,300
nomenclature.
Gets really interesting when you

1383
01:21:01,300 --> 01:21:03,900
know, and causes problems in the
English language when you have,

1384
01:21:03,900 --> 01:21:06,700
we have this, we have this
connotation denotation with

1385
01:21:06,700 --> 01:21:09,900
words, like and it leads you to
make assumptions about that

1386
01:21:09,900 --> 01:21:14,100
means versus what the word
meant, obviously, in that

1387
01:21:14,100 --> 01:21:20,500
culture and I mean, I definitely
don't think she wasn't a virgin

1388
01:21:20,500 --> 01:21:22,000
you know.
I think she was definitely

1389
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:24,800
probably a virgin before she met
God, the Father, you know?

1390
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:27,100
And so I don't really see it
being a far cry from that.

1391
01:21:27,100 --> 01:21:31,500
You know, that was and this this
this goes into this, this Motif

1392
01:21:31,500 --> 01:21:34,000
that you see in the scriptures
right, where it's Christ.

1393
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,500
Is symbolic of the firstborn,
right?

1394
01:21:36,500 --> 01:21:40,300
You know, and so he needs to all
things need to follow that type.

1395
01:21:40,300 --> 01:21:44,800
What are the what elements need
to combine together to make that

1396
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:47,400
happen, right?
So she does need, he does lead

1397
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:51,200
Literally be the first born, you
know, you need to literally be

1398
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:55,100
the father Mormons, believe the
priesthood is patriarchal, and

1399
01:21:55,100 --> 01:21:59,200
that essentially all blessings
that we receive after this life,

1400
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:02,500
come down through patriarchal
means.

1401
01:22:03,500 --> 01:22:08,900
And so, when I look at the Grand
scope of things in Mormonism in

1402
01:22:08,900 --> 01:22:13,100
context of the Temple of the
endowment and for us to be joint

1403
01:22:13,100 --> 01:22:17,400
heirs with Christ, I see that he
has to be a literal.

1404
01:22:17,500 --> 01:22:21,200
Irritable are patriarchy of God,
the father and that's the only

1405
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:23,600
way for him to receive those
blessings from God.

1406
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:26,200
The father, is that he need to
be born under a marriage,

1407
01:22:26,200 --> 01:22:28,900
covenant to inherit that legally
and lawfully.

1408
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:34,100
And I'm through adoption, we
become The Heirs with Christ

1409
01:22:34,100 --> 01:22:38,300
that way.
But Christ couldn't even Extend

1410
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:41,400
that Covenant us, if he was not
qualified for it.

1411
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:47,700
And so being the first form of a
veritable marriage, he has that

1412
01:22:47,700 --> 01:22:52,100
sealed on him so to speak and
then he can see us as his you

1413
01:22:52,100 --> 01:22:56,300
know through obeying the gospel
and making those same covenants

1414
01:22:56,300 --> 01:23:01,200
and and we then are promised you
know as we become Christ

1415
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:04,500
children you know and then we
get to rule over our children.

1416
01:23:04,500 --> 01:23:06,500
We get to keep our children in
eternity.

1417
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:11,400
T, you know, is kind of this
idea but I definitely see that

1418
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:15,900
Christ had to be an absolute
literal Son of God for that to

1419
01:23:15,900 --> 01:23:22,500
even work for us.
Yes, it's certainly interesting.

1420
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:25,900
I don't know if you guys seen
that cartoon, it's like a 1980s

1421
01:23:25,900 --> 01:23:29,200
cartoon and it has like really
bad animation.

1422
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:31,300
As God, the Father walking into
like a room with me.

1423
01:23:31,300 --> 01:23:32,900
The goddamn fuckers.
Yeah.

1424
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:39,900
I guess that's what people might
think when they hear this type

1425
01:23:39,900 --> 01:23:42,400
of thing, but you're saying that
it could be more mystery

1426
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:46,300
mysterious in some sense.
Miraculous.

1427
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:49,400
Perhaps, I don't know.
Jacob, what's your thoughts ICU

1428
01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:52,500
and muted?
Oh, I was, I was just agreeing

1429
01:23:52,500 --> 01:23:55,000
with that and you know with
Brigham Young, he kind of said

1430
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:58,900
that when in the lecture at the
veil where he canonized, Adam

1431
01:23:58,900 --> 01:24:01,400
God Doctrine, the temple
ceremony he talked about how

1432
01:24:01,400 --> 01:24:04,300
when Adam and Eve died, they
didn't lay their body sound the

1433
01:24:04,300 --> 01:24:07,300
dust but they return to the
spirit world from whence they

1434
01:24:07,300 --> 01:24:11,200
came and so I somehow correlate
that with Mary also being

1435
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:16,400
carried away in the spirit for
and then and then the Nephi sees

1436
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:19,100
in the Book of Mormon is that
then she has the child in her

1437
01:24:19,100 --> 01:24:21,600
arms who is, you know, the Son
of God.

1438
01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:26,000
So I think there's something
Mysteries to it that we don't

1439
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:29,400
understand Michael.
How about you anything that

1440
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:33,400
Jacob and I said there that you
don't necessarily agree with or

1441
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:36,800
anything like that.
I'll just I'll just take a very

1442
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:39,300
blunt approach.
I absolutely think that Mary was

1443
01:24:39,300 --> 01:24:40,700
indeed a wife of God, the
Father.

1444
01:24:40,700 --> 01:24:44,400
I think that they are sealed to
this day and I think it's you

1445
01:24:44,407 --> 01:24:47,400
know, to put it in a Joking and
maybe other blunt manner, you

1446
01:24:47,407 --> 01:24:50,100
know, Joseph the carpenter will
be looking for another wife.

1447
01:24:50,500 --> 01:24:52,800
Yeah.
Show me.

1448
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:55,600
Oh, and I absolutely, I
absolutely believe that those

1449
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:58,600
things are gonna, you know,
Provisions will be made for

1450
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:02,300
Joseph being a righteous Steward
over the Christ in his formative

1451
01:25:02,300 --> 01:25:06,500
development.
But I definitely you can almost

1452
01:25:06,500 --> 01:25:10,400
see the veneration.
That was given to marry you as a

1453
01:25:10,407 --> 01:25:12,300
mother of Christ as a Queen of
Heaven.

1454
01:25:12,700 --> 01:25:14,700
That's almost reminiscent of
okay.

1455
01:25:15,100 --> 01:25:17,500
How did that evolve the?
This evolved from the idea that

1456
01:25:17,500 --> 01:25:21,300
she is literally she inherited
being this queen.

1457
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:25,200
And by being married to God, the
father and, you know, and she

1458
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:29,100
will go and participate with God
and future creations, and

1459
01:25:29,100 --> 01:25:32,200
creating, you know, more
spiritual oldrin and and going

1460
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:37,100
down as I believe, as a, you
know, as an atom and and been

1461
01:25:37,300 --> 01:25:39,900
doing this whole thing over
again, adding to his posterity.

1462
01:25:40,900 --> 01:25:45,800
I also, I seem to remember Hugh
Nibley pointed out, you know, in

1463
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:51,200
some, you know, pseudepigrapha,
other stuff that the apostles

1464
01:25:51,500 --> 01:25:55,900
Christ a left, you know, they
got in this prayer circle and

1465
01:25:55,900 --> 01:25:59,200
matter is there, and they're,
they're basically praying.

1466
01:25:59,700 --> 01:26:04,800
And they asked Mario, they ask
Mary to tell them, you know, how

1467
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:08,100
how Christ was conceived, and
she's about to tell them a story

1468
01:26:08,100 --> 01:26:11,900
and Christ, cuffs got some,
don't don't tell, don't tell him

1469
01:26:11,900 --> 01:26:13,800
anymore.
You know what's going on?

1470
01:26:14,100 --> 01:26:17,200
And I also think it's
interesting that I think in that

1471
01:26:17,200 --> 01:26:22,300
same Passage that in that prayer
circle, the person that was

1472
01:26:22,300 --> 01:26:25,600
acting as the mouth represents
Adam, you know, the place of

1473
01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:28,900
Adam as well, which is very
consistent with Mormon temple

1474
01:26:29,500 --> 01:26:32,700
arrangements.
And so yeah, that's that's kind

1475
01:26:32,700 --> 01:26:36,700
of my position on that is, you
know, that they're sealed.

1476
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:39,500
They're married and that's all
part of the divine plan.

1477
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:43,200
And I thank God for it because
it wouldn't have a savior

1478
01:26:43,200 --> 01:26:47,100
without her being willing to go
forth and do that.

1479
01:26:47,100 --> 01:26:50,000
You know, I view the angel,
Gabriel coming.

1480
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:54,300
As she says, he's proposing to
marry on behalf of the Lord to

1481
01:26:54,300 --> 01:26:58,900
see if she's willing to do that.
And I believe that she was a,

1482
01:26:59,100 --> 01:27:03,100
she was prepared for that.
Jacob, I saw you were a muted

1483
01:27:03,100 --> 01:27:05,700
there, would you got?
This is Michael mentioned, Hugh

1484
01:27:05,700 --> 01:27:08,400
Nibley, another thought came to
mind and this is kind of a

1485
01:27:08,407 --> 01:27:11,400
tangent, but just a quick one is
Hugh Nibley reference.

1486
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:14,600
There's early Christian work
that references Mary was

1487
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:18,900
actually serving in the temple
as like a priestess unto God.

1488
01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:22,800
In the temple, which is
significant, you know, that's

1489
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:24,100
not.
I don't think that would have

1490
01:27:24,100 --> 01:27:27,800
been normal Jewish custom bird
to be acting as a priest.

1491
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:32,000
But so there was something
special about her status to God.

1492
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:35,400
And I also think that kind of
debunks that tradition that she

1493
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:37,800
was like this 12 year old girl
when she got married.

1494
01:27:37,900 --> 01:27:40,800
I don't believe, I don't think
that's a true tradition.

1495
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:43,600
I if she's acting as a priestess
in the temple I think she was

1496
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:50,600
fully developed, you know, adult
woman when she Was chosen to be

1497
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:55,800
the wife of God, the father.
So know you can, you can

1498
01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:58,800
actually see that that's
possible to consider your family

1499
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:01,200
Elizabeth and Zachariah seeing
the, you know, in the

1500
01:28:01,208 --> 01:28:03,500
priesthood.
Yeah, I could absolutely see.

1501
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:07,200
Mary being part of that Royal
lineage somehow or Priestly

1502
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:09,800
lineage.
I can absolutely see that

1503
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:12,300
happening.
It's my bleeding to my next

1504
01:28:12,300 --> 01:28:17,800
question.
Getting to the idea of the

1505
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:23,300
physicality of God, certainly.
That's the I mean that's a

1506
01:28:23,500 --> 01:28:27,400
that's a topic that's out
rightly rejected by any Orthodox

1507
01:28:27,400 --> 01:28:30,900
Christian.
So right in the Bible as they

1508
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:37,000
first Timothy 616 no man has
seen God I guess you could maybe

1509
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:40,700
use man or woman there but how
would you guys understood that

1510
01:28:40,700 --> 01:28:43,900
especially Joseph Smith?
And the first Fishman?

1511
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:47,000
I believe he sees God the Father
and Jesus, right?

1512
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:50,200
And so how would you guys
understand that verse?

1513
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:53,500
Read that last part you talk
about the first Vision.

1514
01:28:53,500 --> 01:28:55,100
Sorry.
I did, I didn't clock out.

1515
01:28:55,100 --> 01:28:57,500
There's for a second.
Yeah, no problem.

1516
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:04,400
The question was basically.
So you have you have Mary seeing

1517
01:29:04,500 --> 01:29:07,800
the father.
You have Joseph Smith seeing

1518
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:10,600
God, the Father.
Certainly in the Christian

1519
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:14,000
position, like the Orthodox
Christian position is that God

1520
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:17,400
is not a physical being and we
believe that because several

1521
01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:21,600
verses, but in 1st Timothy, it
says, no man has seen God or no

1522
01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:24,700
man can see God.
He's a spirit.

1523
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:29,800
So, how would you guys take The
physicality of God or the fact

1524
01:29:29,800 --> 01:29:33,400
that no one can actually see him
and in the Bible.

1525
01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:34,700
How would you understand that
first?

1526
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:39,600
I would say, based on Modern
scripture through the to the

1527
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:42,900
restoration section, 84 of the
Doctrine.

1528
01:29:42,900 --> 01:29:45,900
And Covenants says that the keys
of the Melchizedek priesthood,

1529
01:29:45,900 --> 01:29:50,100
holds the keys to the mysteries
of the knowledge of God and

1530
01:29:50,100 --> 01:29:53,600
Mormons.
Believe that at Mount Sinai, the

1531
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:56,900
children of Israel rejected, the
Melchizedek priesthood, Covenant

1532
01:29:56,900 --> 01:30:01,900
and You know, God had given
these tables of stone with it,

1533
01:30:01,900 --> 01:30:04,700
with the Commandments on them,
but they also had the temple

1534
01:30:04,700 --> 01:30:07,200
ordinances written on them
though the ordinances of the

1535
01:30:07,208 --> 01:30:11,800
Holy order and he broke them,
anyone up to Mount Sinai again

1536
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:15,300
to get another set of tablets
and this time, they didn't have

1537
01:30:15,300 --> 01:30:18,700
the priesthood and lower order
of priesthood.

1538
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:24,100
The priesthood of Aaron was
instituted with a caramel law to

1539
01:30:24,100 --> 01:30:25,700
keep them in.
Remembrance of the time that

1540
01:30:25,700 --> 01:30:28,200
Christ would come and redeem
them. but because the

1541
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:32,700
Melchizedek priesthood was taken
from the for the first time, And

1542
01:30:32,700 --> 01:30:36,500
because we in our present day,
have inherited only scripture

1543
01:30:36,500 --> 01:30:39,000
that is kind of relied on the
tradition that came from those

1544
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:42,800
people that lost the priesthood.
I think, without the knowledge

1545
01:30:42,900 --> 01:30:46,500
of the mysteries of God, those
things you can see elements.

1546
01:30:46,700 --> 01:30:49,800
I think I could point out,
almonds out in the scriptures,

1547
01:30:50,300 --> 01:30:54,100
what I see, certain things like
that, but it comes through

1548
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:58,300
looking through a glass Darkly
as Paul says, at this point in

1549
01:30:58,300 --> 01:31:02,900
time, I think.
And as I Solutely do believe

1550
01:31:02,900 --> 01:31:05,300
that God is tabernacled or
embodied.

1551
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:10,900
Even in First Corinthians
chapter 15 and talks about the

1552
01:31:10,900 --> 01:31:14,300
resurrection and Frames it.
As you'll be raised from

1553
01:31:14,300 --> 01:31:16,500
incorrupt, from corruption to
incorruption.

1554
01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:20,600
And you'll receive, you know, a
body that is Mortal, you know,

1555
01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:24,200
carnal or however puts it, then
you'll be raised into a body

1556
01:31:24,200 --> 01:31:27,500
spiritual, right?
And so the, so when it says, God

1557
01:31:27,500 --> 01:31:30,000
is a spirit, you know, and then
you but we're gonna be raised a

1558
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:33,400
spiritual body is I see it as
the same thing, you know, God

1559
01:31:33,400 --> 01:31:38,700
himself, you know says it says
The first Adam was of the

1560
01:31:38,700 --> 01:31:43,900
Earthly and in the second man or
second, Adam is of, is the Lord

1561
01:31:43,900 --> 01:31:45,900
From Heaven, you know, the
spiritual man is the Lord From

1562
01:31:45,900 --> 01:31:48,000
Heaven.
And I see that as a, you know,

1563
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:50,500
to be the Lord of Heaven, you
have to be resurrected, you have

1564
01:31:50,500 --> 01:31:54,100
to be hit, be a spiritual body.
Michael.

1565
01:31:54,100 --> 01:31:59,300
There's something else here,
there's something else here that

1566
01:31:59,300 --> 01:32:03,000
did I always found interesting
and this is in Exodus 33,

1567
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:09,000
chapter 11, chapter 33, verse
11, And here it says and the

1568
01:32:09,008 --> 01:32:13,800
Lord spake unto Moses face to
face as a man speaketh unto his

1569
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:15,600
friend.
Okay?

1570
01:32:16,900 --> 01:32:22,000
The fact that the scripture
calls out face-to-face, right?

1571
01:32:22,300 --> 01:32:29,600
This is the scriptures not
describing simply a movement of

1572
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:33,400
a spirit.
They're saying Moses is talking

1573
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:39,100
to God face to face, right?
As a as one friend talks to

1574
01:32:39,100 --> 01:32:41,900
another.
I think that shows that there is

1575
01:32:42,500 --> 01:32:47,100
you know God has a physical
presence, a body.

1576
01:32:48,100 --> 01:32:52,400
It also it also mentions in in
Exodus you think I'll start

1577
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:55,900
about Sinai and they see this
Throne you know you know it's

1578
01:32:55,900 --> 01:32:58,200
always and you see that in other
places throughout the scriptures

1579
01:32:58,200 --> 01:33:00,900
you know God is enthroned.
He you know what is that That

1580
01:33:01,500 --> 01:33:03,500
you know I have a hard time
doing that is just purely

1581
01:33:03,500 --> 01:33:05,800
symbolic.
Like this is you know and while

1582
01:33:05,800 --> 01:33:09,400
their symbolism to that but it's
pretty basic completely

1583
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:11,100
immaterial.
I don't, I don't get that.

1584
01:33:11,100 --> 01:33:13,100
I don't buy that, you know, God
is enthroned.

1585
01:33:13,100 --> 01:33:16,500
It says that when Moses went up
there with the with the 78

1586
01:33:16,500 --> 01:33:20,000
princes of Israel that they saw
work of sapphire under his feet.

1587
01:33:20,100 --> 01:33:23,900
You know, like these are these
are attributes of a embodied

1588
01:33:24,100 --> 01:33:26,800
individual.
The other thing I would say is

1589
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:32,100
that, if God's plan is to bring
us back to him, And we're all

1590
01:33:32,100 --> 01:33:37,700
going to have a body but he's
not, he doesn't, it seems to

1591
01:33:37,700 --> 01:33:42,000
defeat the purpose someone or at
least that's that's my take on

1592
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:47,100
it.
One thing I would add is that on

1593
01:33:47,100 --> 01:33:54,300
the subject of the god, having a
body is, there's just so much in

1594
01:33:54,300 --> 01:33:59,900
the scriptures that reference
him having a body but to address

1595
01:33:59,900 --> 01:34:02,300
first, the god, Spirit because
that's a common one.

1596
01:34:02,300 --> 01:34:04,600
Thrown at Christians.
You read that verse in its

1597
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:08,900
context.
John 4:24 God is a spirit and

1598
01:34:08,907 --> 01:34:11,900
those that must worship that
worship Him must worship Him in

1599
01:34:11,900 --> 01:34:13,900
spirit and Truth.
Does that mean that we have to

1600
01:34:13,900 --> 01:34:16,500
not have a body in order to be
able to worship God?

1601
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:19,500
I think it means that God is a
spiritual being.

1602
01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:23,100
And so we also have to be
Spiritual Beings in order to be

1603
01:34:23,100 --> 01:34:27,400
able to worship God.
And so it seems like in the

1604
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:30,800
throughout the scriptures that
there that God says, you know?

1605
01:34:30,900 --> 01:34:33,800
You can't see me, but there are
other times where he says you

1606
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:37,900
can see me the fact that the
father, one of the verses in the

1607
01:34:37,907 --> 01:34:40,900
New Testament I think is the
most explicit that the father

1608
01:34:41,100 --> 01:34:45,900
has a body is Hebrews 13.
Where it references Jesus

1609
01:34:45,900 --> 01:34:48,900
Christ, as being in the
brightness of his glory and the

1610
01:34:48,900 --> 01:34:53,900
express image of his person.
So that's clearly I think if

1611
01:34:53,900 --> 01:34:57,500
it's saying that Jesus Christ is
in the express image of God, the

1612
01:34:57,500 --> 01:35:03,500
father that means he looks like
God, the father and I don't

1613
01:35:03,500 --> 01:35:07,200
Joseph Smith is a loan and
seeing the father and the son,

1614
01:35:07,400 --> 01:35:10,800
you see, it's Stephen when he
was stoned, he said that he was

1615
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:14,800
full of the Holy Spirit looked
intent and into heaven and saw

1616
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:18,500
the glory of God and Jesus
standing on the right hand of

1617
01:35:18,500 --> 01:35:22,300
God.
So people can see God at certain

1618
01:35:22,300 --> 01:35:24,700
times and other times they
can't, I think it's due to

1619
01:35:24,700 --> 01:35:27,400
wickedness.
Another interesting verse is the

1620
01:35:27,400 --> 01:35:34,400
calling of Gideon and judges
6:22 Where he he's he's actually

1621
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:39,000
called by an Angel of the Lord.
And he's he's afraid he's going

1622
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:41,600
to die.
He's like, he's like, he's like

1623
01:35:42,300 --> 01:35:46,200
this is judges 6. 22 and 23 when
getting perceived, he was an

1624
01:35:46,200 --> 01:35:48,700
angel of the Lord Gideon, said
alas, O Lord God for because I

1625
01:35:48,708 --> 01:35:52,400
have seen an angel of the Lord
face to face, and he was afraid,

1626
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:55,700
he was going to die in the next
verse says, but the Lord said

1627
01:35:55,700 --> 01:35:58,000
unto a peace be with, you being
afraid for you will not die.

1628
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:00,500
So, there's this fear of
encountering the Divine because

1629
01:36:00,500 --> 01:36:03,800
there's this Don't chance of
death but there are you know

1630
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:07,000
there's so many instances in the
scriptures where individuals

1631
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:10,200
interact with God and that
indicate he has a Corporal body.

1632
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:14,200
I think Abraham's the most
explicit where he's washes,

1633
01:36:14,200 --> 01:36:17,400
God's feet and eat some meal
with him at one time and then

1634
01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:23,000
there's obviously the accounts
of Moses you have Isaiah saw God

1635
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:26,800
and he said, I am a man of
unclean lips for I have seen the

1636
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:31,400
the king the Lord of hosts.
So I do think there are There's

1637
01:36:31,400 --> 01:36:33,900
plenty in the scriptures to show
that there are times that people

1638
01:36:33,900 --> 01:36:35,900
can see God.
There are other times that they

1639
01:36:35,900 --> 01:36:38,500
can't.
And with the early Christians, I

1640
01:36:38,500 --> 01:36:42,200
would say that origin admitted.
It was a settled matter among

1641
01:36:42,200 --> 01:36:45,600
the earliest Christians, whether
God the father had a body or

1642
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:48,100
not.
He argued against it personally

1643
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:51,300
because of his philosophical
ideas but you admitted that

1644
01:36:51,300 --> 01:36:54,500
there were some of our people, I
Christians who believe that God

1645
01:36:54,500 --> 01:36:57,900
had a body and one of them was
the second century Bishop

1646
01:36:57,900 --> 01:37:00,800
Milito, he said believed that
God had a body.

1647
01:37:00,900 --> 01:37:04,700
Man were made after the image of
his body and threw out the

1648
01:37:04,700 --> 01:37:06,400
first.
Several centuries of the church,

1649
01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:09,200
there were various different
Christians at different times

1650
01:37:09,300 --> 01:37:10,900
who believe that God had a body
though?

1651
01:37:10,900 --> 01:37:15,100
I will admit that, it wasn't a
popular view among the church

1652
01:37:15,100 --> 01:37:18,100
fathers, and I would argue.
That's because of the Greek

1653
01:37:18,100 --> 01:37:22,000
philosophical ideas, about God
had really influence them.

1654
01:37:22,000 --> 01:37:26,100
Is my opinion, you know?
And I think I think also that

1655
01:37:26,400 --> 01:37:29,400
this is a spot where I want to
point out how thankful I am for

1656
01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:31,000
the restored gospel, right?
Right.

1657
01:37:31,500 --> 01:37:36,600
Because this idea that that are
our Humanity has to be an

1658
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:42,100
impediment to our spiritual
growth, always struck me as as

1659
01:37:42,100 --> 01:37:44,600
wrong.
And, and I think that, that one

1660
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:47,600
of the things that Joseph
restored is this idea that your

1661
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:50,800
body doesn't have to be an
impediment to righteousness.

1662
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:54,200
In fact, your Humanity can be
holy Michael.

1663
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:57,900
I saw you raise a finger there,
would you have I love what

1664
01:37:57,900 --> 01:38:00,500
you're touching on right there.
And you can we see the scroll?

1665
01:38:00,500 --> 01:38:03,700
And Jacob mentioned it.
It kind of allows me to segue

1666
01:38:03,700 --> 01:38:06,100
into this, in the New Testament.
You have these gnostics that

1667
01:38:06,100 --> 01:38:09,300
should open all this Greek
philosophy and, and have a lot

1668
01:38:09,300 --> 01:38:11,900
of truth, but then they start
teaching things.

1669
01:38:11,900 --> 01:38:15,000
Like, you know, Christ didn't
come in the flesh literally

1670
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:16,900
because the flatly believe that
this flesh is evil.

1671
01:38:16,900 --> 01:38:19,600
Like you're saying Dave.
Like this flesh is an impediment

1672
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:22,500
to our spiritual progress.
Listen to us, we got these

1673
01:38:22,500 --> 01:38:26,400
teachings from the apostles.
You know, we have these keys and

1674
01:38:26,400 --> 01:38:29,700
we can teach This immaterial
world, you know?

1675
01:38:29,700 --> 01:38:33,000
And we can shed these bodies
that we have because the our

1676
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:36,500
bodies are made from a they're
made from a fallen God you know

1677
01:38:36,500 --> 01:38:41,100
are an evil demiurge you know
and the apostles talk about this

1678
01:38:41,100 --> 01:38:43,800
and they said you know John and
his epistle say any man that

1679
01:38:43,800 --> 01:38:47,300
comes and says that Christ did
not come in his body.

1680
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:51,200
You know he says this is this is
evil.

1681
01:38:51,200 --> 01:38:54,700
You know this is in this is
Antichrist is what he says, and

1682
01:38:54,700 --> 01:38:57,600
Peter talks about it, I think
Jude taught, you know, You know,

1683
01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:01,000
Peter, James and John and Jude.
All talk about these gnostics

1684
01:39:01,000 --> 01:39:04,800
that come in and saying that,
this Resurrection isn't literal.

1685
01:39:05,000 --> 01:39:07,400
And that the about, you know,
that the or like Christ didn't

1686
01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:10,800
literally come in body and they
thought it was heresy.

1687
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:14,800
And so, if we can take that as
the word of God and Views that

1688
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:18,700
that doctrine of being Tavern, a
folder of being embodied as

1689
01:39:18,700 --> 01:39:21,100
heresy.
And then extend that to God,

1690
01:39:21,200 --> 01:39:24,700
yeah, I think that makes a good
rhetorical logical sense, you

1691
01:39:24,700 --> 01:39:26,900
know, to see that it would be
good for.

1692
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:30,300
And natural for him to have what
we have.

1693
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:35,500
Yep, that old ice time.
What one of the things that

1694
01:39:35,500 --> 01:39:39,500
attracted me to the Lutheran
tradition is it's almost the

1695
01:39:39,500 --> 01:39:45,900
anti atonic tradition out there,
it's very firmly rooted in God,

1696
01:39:45,900 --> 01:39:50,900
working through matter, God made
matter, matter is a good thing

1697
01:39:50,900 --> 01:39:54,900
and so like I said we look at
baptism with a very high view.

1698
01:39:54,900 --> 01:39:58,000
We look at the Lord's Supper
preaching of the The word which

1699
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:05,500
is basically God using Airwaves
to reach our heart and but let

1700
01:40:05,500 --> 01:40:08,100
me ask you something about.
This is like, as you guys are

1701
01:40:08,100 --> 01:40:10,200
talking, I'm just trying to spin
my wheels.

1702
01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:13,200
What is then?
The Holy Spirit.

1703
01:40:13,400 --> 01:40:16,800
What is so we have God being
matter.

1704
01:40:17,000 --> 01:40:22,000
I know Ogden crowd, almost talks
about the spirit being almost

1705
01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:27,000
like a form of matter itself.
Except our senses can perceive

1706
01:40:27,100 --> 01:40:32,100
It's almost like we can't appear
clean verify it and in some way.

1707
01:40:32,200 --> 01:40:35,500
And so what is the holy spirit?
If God is matter?

1708
01:40:36,700 --> 01:40:38,000
Whose turn is it?
Start?

1709
01:40:38,100 --> 01:40:40,100
I forgot.
I don't know where I'm at.

1710
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:44,700
I don't either Jacob.
That means it's on you, buddy.

1711
01:40:45,200 --> 01:40:49,400
Okay, that's a good question.
There's different Mormons that

1712
01:40:49,400 --> 01:40:53,300
have different philosophical
ideas about the doctrine of the

1713
01:40:53,300 --> 01:40:56,000
holy spirit.
That does seem that there is a

1714
01:40:57,400 --> 01:41:00,700
that that there is a teaching
from Joseph Smith that there, is

1715
01:41:00,700 --> 01:41:04,500
this spiritual element that is
diffused, throughout the

1716
01:41:04,500 --> 01:41:07,700
creation.
And, and throughout the universe

1717
01:41:07,700 --> 01:41:12,700
that this is a channel through
which light and red, Ation and

1718
01:41:12,700 --> 01:41:16,600
you know, different spiritual
things have are, you know, it's

1719
01:41:16,600 --> 01:41:21,400
a spiritual agent to be utilized
as God sees fit and early

1720
01:41:21,400 --> 01:41:25,300
Mormons would argue it's similar
to like electricity where, you

1721
01:41:25,308 --> 01:41:29,200
know, there's these energies in
forces in the universe that we

1722
01:41:29,200 --> 01:41:33,700
don't necessarily, you know, are
able to see, but we know that

1723
01:41:33,700 --> 01:41:35,800
they exist.
And so there is that via the

1724
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:38,100
Holy Spirit.
But there's also the very real

1725
01:41:38,100 --> 01:41:42,300
view that there is a personage
as the holy Spirit and I would

1726
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:45,400
harmonize the two different
ideas and that there is this

1727
01:41:45,800 --> 01:41:51,000
element of spirit that is used.
But there also is a third member

1728
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:54,900
of the Trinity.
The godhead who is a disembodied

1729
01:41:54,900 --> 01:42:02,000
spirit and and does, all the
does fulfills the nature of his

1730
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:05,500
office and testifying and
witnessing of the truth and

1731
01:42:05,700 --> 01:42:09,600
comforting us.
There's different views on how

1732
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:12,900
exactly that works.
Modern Mormons would say it's

1733
01:42:12,900 --> 01:42:15,600
like the sun.
You know, the Rays of the sun

1734
01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:19,300
can be shining and felt in many
places even though there's only

1735
01:42:19,300 --> 01:42:23,500
the sons only in one place.
One thing that Brigham Young

1736
01:42:23,500 --> 01:42:26,000
believe is that and this is I
see this in the scriptures and

1737
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:28,000
different places.
And so there's actually many,

1738
01:42:28,000 --> 01:42:32,400
holy spirits that act under the
Holy Ghost.

1739
01:42:32,800 --> 01:42:36,700
And I think in Book of
Revelation, it talks about, you

1740
01:42:36,700 --> 01:42:39,400
know, seven different, Holy
Spirit, sent to different

1741
01:42:39,400 --> 01:42:41,900
churches.
And so that's something that

1742
01:42:41,900 --> 01:42:44,800
Brigham Young said is that he
says, by Holy Ghost, I mean,

1743
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:47,100
Holy Spirits.
I don't pretend to know how many

1744
01:42:47,500 --> 01:42:49,900
spirits that the Lord has set
forth.

1745
01:42:50,200 --> 01:42:53,400
So that's just a couple ideas on
the Holy Spirit.

1746
01:42:53,400 --> 01:42:56,000
Maybe Michael has some
additional thoughts on it.

1747
01:42:56,300 --> 01:42:58,400
So I love what Jacob said, he's
absolutely right.

1748
01:42:58,400 --> 01:43:00,000
There's been different.
There's been different

1749
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:04,300
perspectives, regarding our
philosophy schools of thought,

1750
01:43:04,300 --> 01:43:06,000
you know, regarding the Holy
Ghost in Mormonism.

1751
01:43:06,300 --> 01:43:09,400
And I think like Jacob I take a
take a look, that kind of

1752
01:43:09,400 --> 01:43:11,700
synchronizes and Both on
together.

1753
01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:19,000
There's a quote from before I
get into that, that the way I've

1754
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:21,400
heard it described and it's
probably Joseph Fielding Smith.

1755
01:43:21,400 --> 01:43:26,100
Who kind of puts it this way,
where he says the Holy Spirit.

1756
01:43:26,400 --> 01:43:29,400
There's a difference between the
Holy Spirit and the whole and a

1757
01:43:29,400 --> 01:43:33,500
personage of the Holy Ghost and
the Holy Spirit is also kind of

1758
01:43:33,500 --> 01:43:37,400
synonymous with what Mormons
call The Light of Christ, or the

1759
01:43:37,400 --> 01:43:41,000
spirit of Truth, which is
essentially law, its The law

1760
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:44,800
that the Universe operates
around or the laws that the

1761
01:43:44,800 --> 01:43:48,400
Universe operates around to
create life and not entropy is

1762
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:52,000
how I would maybe put that out
there because there is laws that

1763
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:55,100
if you know if you do or if you
break them, I believe that they

1764
01:43:55,100 --> 01:43:58,100
causes entropy.
There's a there's a quote from a

1765
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:03,300
someone who's kind of important
and Mormon fundamentalism Ross.

1766
01:44:03,300 --> 01:44:06,800
LeBaron, I've always loved when
it comes to this and he says

1767
01:44:07,300 --> 01:44:10,600
that which is beyond the Realms
of reason we attribute to God.

1768
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:15,400
Therefore two, most intelligent
beings, God is the creative law

1769
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:19,100
of nature.
This God if I may call us such

1770
01:44:19,100 --> 01:44:23,300
is the most powerful law and
Authority in all time in space.

1771
01:44:23,700 --> 01:44:28,400
No one disobeys without paying
the exact penalty, this God is

1772
01:44:28,400 --> 01:44:33,000
the most most ruthless force in
existence and also the kindest

1773
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:38,100
for a gives us life Everlasting.
This God is a law and not a

1774
01:44:38,100 --> 01:44:42,000
personality.
Personal gods are those who are

1775
01:44:42,200 --> 01:44:46,000
who by obedience to law have
gone ahead of the ones that they

1776
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:49,100
preside over.
If a man knows more than others,

1777
01:44:49,300 --> 01:44:54,900
does he not have more power and
more glory and so with this view

1778
01:44:54,900 --> 01:44:58,300
of things in mind, the Holy
Spirit, or this, or this, the

1779
01:44:58,400 --> 01:45:00,300
what is true?
Truth is law.

1780
01:45:00,400 --> 01:45:02,400
Yeah.
And there are these Eternal laws

1781
01:45:02,400 --> 01:45:07,900
that everything is predicated on
and So Orson Pratt kind of had

1782
01:45:07,900 --> 01:45:12,200
this idea that you know
everything has you know that the

1783
01:45:12,200 --> 01:45:16,200
spirit element, this fundamental
matter is that's more pure and

1784
01:45:16,200 --> 01:45:20,200
not the gross stuff that our
bodies are made of is is part of

1785
01:45:20,200 --> 01:45:22,700
its in everything, right?
And everything has an

1786
01:45:22,700 --> 01:45:26,400
intelligence.
And so in that way, It's all

1787
01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:31,500
kind of like an unconscious
entity in a sense and so that

1788
01:45:31,500 --> 01:45:33,700
gets really, really
philosophical, right?

1789
01:45:35,100 --> 01:45:37,800
But I absolutely love.
There's a there's another,

1790
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:40,500
there's another Revelation that
works in Pratt reads in the

1791
01:45:40,508 --> 01:45:45,300
Journal of discourses, its
Volume 2 page 334 through.

1792
01:45:45,300 --> 01:45:49,800
You know, 347 is the speech.
Any Source impressed says,

1793
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:52,400
there's one Revelation that this
people are not generally

1794
01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:54,200
acquainted with.
I think it has never been

1795
01:45:54,200 --> 01:45:58,200
published but Probably be in the
church history, it is given in

1796
01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:01,600
questions and answers.
The first question is, what is

1797
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:03,200
the name of God in the pure
language?

1798
01:46:03,300 --> 01:46:06,700
The answer says, almond, what is
the name of the son of God

1799
01:46:06,900 --> 01:46:09,200
answer?
Son, almond.

1800
01:46:09,400 --> 01:46:12,800
The greatest of all the parts of
God accepting almond?

1801
01:46:13,100 --> 01:46:14,900
What is the name of men?
Son?

1802
01:46:14,900 --> 01:46:17,700
Zaman is the answer.
What is the name of Angels in

1803
01:46:17,700 --> 01:46:20,500
the pure language?
Anglo man, the Rev load the

1804
01:46:20,500 --> 01:46:22,600
Revelation and then this is
Orson.

1805
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:25,400
The Revelation goes on to say
that Sons almond or the greatest

1806
01:46:25,400 --> 01:46:29,300
of all the Parts of God
accepting Sun Amon and Amon me

1807
01:46:29,300 --> 01:46:34,700
or the father and the son.
And so there's this view of

1808
01:46:35,100 --> 01:46:40,800
that, we're all kind of part of
the same, you know, intelligence

1809
01:46:40,800 --> 01:46:43,200
structure, you know, or the Holy
Spirit?

1810
01:46:43,200 --> 01:46:46,000
We're all connected that way.
And I can almost even see that

1811
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:49,600
in the lectures on faith, which,
which, unfortunately, the poop

1812
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:52,500
and put out of the cannon and
LBS circles that I think it was

1813
01:46:52,500 --> 01:46:55,000
dropped in 1923.
But in the lectures on faith

1814
01:46:55,000 --> 01:47:01,000
lecture, 5 Joseph Smith says
that the holy spirit is the

1815
01:47:01,000 --> 01:47:04,000
mind.
And of the unity between God,

1816
01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:09,600
the father and God the son, and
it's really interesting that the

1817
01:47:09,600 --> 01:47:12,700
rest of the lectures on faith.
Go about, how do we obtain the

1818
01:47:12,700 --> 01:47:14,900
mind and the attributes of the
Sun?

1819
01:47:14,900 --> 01:47:18,600
And in the sense, we're becoming
the Holy Ghost by that, you

1820
01:47:18,608 --> 01:47:22,900
know, if we, he defines it,
being the mind of God and or the

1821
01:47:22,900 --> 01:47:26,200
mind of the shared mind of the
god, of God and the son, and we

1822
01:47:26,200 --> 01:47:30,200
get that, then we're almost
philosophically in that, you

1823
01:47:30,200 --> 01:47:33,800
know, this is kind of esoteric.
We're filling that role of the

1824
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:36,000
third.
You know, of the third God in

1825
01:47:36,008 --> 01:47:38,700
the Trinity that way.
And I've always kind of liked

1826
01:47:38,700 --> 01:47:41,200
that that view, but I do very
firmly.

1827
01:47:41,200 --> 01:47:45,800
Also, personally believe that
there is the third God in the

1828
01:47:45,800 --> 01:47:49,400
presidency of the godhead.
And it's not just

1829
01:47:49,400 --> 01:47:52,900
representative, but it is also
an office, but I also believe

1830
01:47:52,900 --> 01:47:55,000
that the other two positions are
offices as well.

1831
01:47:56,600 --> 01:48:00,400
So, that's what I got.
I think I'd like to add on that

1832
01:48:00,400 --> 01:48:03,800
is, you know, we since Orson
Pratt came up in his holy

1833
01:48:03,800 --> 01:48:05,900
spirit, Doctrine came up, I
would say the thing that got

1834
01:48:05,900 --> 01:48:09,400
condemned about it was he said
that we should worship this

1835
01:48:09,400 --> 01:48:13,500
Spirit wherever it is.
You know, this, this element and

1836
01:48:13,500 --> 01:48:17,500
Brigham Young said, no, that's,
you know, we worship God our

1837
01:48:17,500 --> 01:48:20,600
father because he is our father,
in our career, we don't just

1838
01:48:20,600 --> 01:48:24,000
worship elements is kind of what
Brigham Young said.

1839
01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:27,400
And that's why he condemned or
some On that point.

1840
01:48:27,400 --> 01:48:30,900
So underrated, I absolutely
agree with Brigham's point on

1841
01:48:30,900 --> 01:48:37,300
the rebuttal to Orson on that I
love reading the exchanges and

1842
01:48:37,300 --> 01:48:41,300
Billy this, this is stuff that
you'll have to dig into because

1843
01:48:41,300 --> 01:48:45,900
it's fascinating.
Oftentimes Mormonism is looked

1844
01:48:45,900 --> 01:48:51,300
at this super hard hierarchical
structure and you can't go

1845
01:48:51,300 --> 01:48:54,200
against anybody above you.
Well, Orson Pratt.

1846
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:58,800
Prove that wrong, right?
I mean these two guys, Brigham

1847
01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:02,500
Young and Orson Pratt, they were
in the Quorum of The Twelve

1848
01:49:02,500 --> 01:49:06,800
together.
They work side by side but man

1849
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:10,300
did they have their differences?
And they went to the mat form

1850
01:49:10,600 --> 01:49:15,800
and you can, it's often
Interesting to see how their

1851
01:49:15,800 --> 01:49:18,700
differences kind of played off
of each other a little bit to

1852
01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:23,300
lessen.
A, I think this might lead into

1853
01:49:23,300 --> 01:49:28,100
the next topic quite, well, you
guys alluded to it.

1854
01:49:28,100 --> 01:49:32,700
And certainly any Evangelical /
Catholic listening to be

1855
01:49:32,700 --> 01:49:36,200
scratching their head when you
guys called father, Adam, and

1856
01:49:36,200 --> 01:49:38,200
then refer to God as Adam and
things like that.

1857
01:49:38,200 --> 01:49:40,500
So you guys ready to jump and
Adam God?

1858
01:49:41,800 --> 01:49:45,200
Oh yeah.
All right.

1859
01:49:45,200 --> 01:49:51,500
He's so, I mean, I have the
questions laid out, but let me

1860
01:49:51,500 --> 01:49:56,300
try to steal man to perspective
before we go into it and just to

1861
01:49:56,300 --> 01:50:03,100
make sure I understand it.
Adam is God, the Father, who was

1862
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:08,200
essentially another being on
another planet who is went

1863
01:50:08,200 --> 01:50:11,900
through the same trials and
tribulations that we go through

1864
01:50:12,100 --> 01:50:17,200
was resurrected.
By God, his father and brought

1865
01:50:17,200 --> 01:50:21,500
to this planet to start the
human race and so they brought

1866
01:50:21,500 --> 01:50:23,400
plants, he brought plants with
him.

1867
01:50:23,800 --> 01:50:26,700
Not sure if he brought animals,
but brought things with him and

1868
01:50:26,700 --> 01:50:31,300
kind of started the production
of this planet, would that be

1869
01:50:31,300 --> 01:50:35,600
correct?
I think that's a really, I think

1870
01:50:35,600 --> 01:50:37,600
it's correct.
And I also think it's a very

1871
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:40,400
simple view fellas, what do you
think jumping here, either one?

1872
01:50:40,400 --> 01:50:43,300
You I think that's pretty
correct.

1873
01:50:43,400 --> 01:50:52,800
Act what I see I see the atom
God auction and developing out

1874
01:50:52,800 --> 01:51:00,000
of this idea that the gospel is
eternal better reproduces as we

1875
01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:04,000
become joint, heirs with God.
You know this cosmology develops

1876
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:04,800
of.
What does that mean?

1877
01:51:04,800 --> 01:51:06,600
What does that?
What does an inheritance in the

1878
01:51:06,600 --> 01:51:12,300
heavens look like, you know, and
so We're promised Eternal

1879
01:51:12,300 --> 01:51:15,900
posterity and with a priest and
being patriarchal.

1880
01:51:16,800 --> 01:51:19,800
It kind of, you know, what this
these ideas were as they were

1881
01:51:19,800 --> 01:51:22,500
explained and revealed to the
Latter-Day Saints that, you

1882
01:51:22,500 --> 01:51:26,200
know, to me became a no-brainer
that this came up that okay

1883
01:51:26,200 --> 01:51:30,200
patriarch Lee.
Speaking, you know, if the, if

1884
01:51:30,200 --> 01:51:32,900
the hierarchy structure is
patriarchal than the God is

1885
01:51:32,900 --> 01:51:36,000
ultimately you know literally
the father, right?

1886
01:51:37,200 --> 01:51:42,000
With the view of the marriage,
covenant it In particular was

1887
01:51:42,000 --> 01:51:45,700
without of being the first man,
and Joseph Smith taught this

1888
01:51:45,700 --> 01:51:48,600
Joseph Smith taught that Adam
was the first to whom these

1889
01:51:48,600 --> 01:51:52,100
spiritual blessings were
revealed, you know, by Covenant,

1890
01:51:52,100 --> 01:51:55,600
then he presides by Eternal all
over the spirits of all his

1891
01:51:55,600 --> 01:51:57,800
children.
And would that not make him a

1892
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:02,200
God does, you know?
And that's what I see.

1893
01:52:02,200 --> 01:52:06,000
And we have the privilege of
doing likewise, is not shelf,

1894
01:52:06,000 --> 01:52:09,900
the atom God Doctrine.
Is that Adam, and Eve was like,

1895
01:52:10,100 --> 01:52:13,000
We're like us, they didn't have
these blessings that are

1896
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:18,000
eternal. they were Celestial,
you know, when they when they

1897
01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:24,700
came to this world I had a had a
experience with my brother.

1898
01:52:24,700 --> 01:52:26,800
I'd share.
I got off my mission and I have

1899
01:52:26,800 --> 01:52:29,600
been really.
I recently just barely converted

1900
01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:31,600
to the atom.
God Doctrine by my own studies.

1901
01:52:32,200 --> 01:52:36,900
And by the spirit and it was, it
blew my mind because I had read

1902
01:52:36,900 --> 01:52:40,100
everything from a church
perspective and I had a

1903
01:52:40,108 --> 01:52:43,000
testimony now that completely
went opposed to what I've been

1904
01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:45,900
taught.
And I was like, okay, father.

1905
01:52:45,900 --> 01:52:50,000
I have no problem.
Receiving this testimony but I

1906
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:51,500
do have a problem with
explaining it.

1907
01:52:51,500 --> 01:52:54,200
How like how do I reconcile
this?

1908
01:52:54,200 --> 01:52:59,300
How do I be in the teacher?
And I was taking my brother to a

1909
01:52:59,308 --> 01:53:04,800
sack from a meeting and we had
to leave early and this is my

1910
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:09,100
brother is he's really smart but
he's not studious in the in the

1911
01:53:09,100 --> 01:53:12,900
sources and things like I am.
And the spirit told me, teach

1912
01:53:12,900 --> 01:53:14,400
your brother, the young God
doctor.

1913
01:53:14,800 --> 01:53:17,500
And I told the spirit fat
chance, he's not gonna

1914
01:53:17,500 --> 01:53:19,700
understand what's what we're
talking about.

1915
01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:23,400
And in spirit is told me to do
it.

1916
01:53:24,000 --> 01:53:29,100
And so, I asked him essentially,
you know, do you believe that

1917
01:53:29,100 --> 01:53:32,700
God has all power and of course
he says, well yeah, I do.

1918
01:53:34,100 --> 01:53:38,700
And I said, do you think that
means that God can become mortal

1919
01:53:39,200 --> 01:53:40,900
her change himself into a mortal
being?

1920
01:53:41,500 --> 01:53:45,000
And he says, well, I suppose he
could, but why would he want to

1921
01:53:47,300 --> 01:53:50,600
And I told him the president
Brigham Young explain to the

1922
01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:56,400
saints that father Adam was a
Celestial being and that having

1923
01:53:56,400 --> 01:54:00,100
had spiritual children, came
down to this earth to, you know,

1924
01:54:00,800 --> 01:54:04,300
to start this world.
And he had everything click like

1925
01:54:04,400 --> 01:54:06,300
it all fit.
All the puzzle pieces came

1926
01:54:06,300 --> 01:54:10,100
together, but first conversation
I Ever Had A Samana and he just

1927
01:54:10,100 --> 01:54:14,100
said, it would make sense.
That the father of our Spirits

1928
01:54:14,100 --> 01:54:16,600
would want to be the father of
our bodies as well.

1929
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:21,600
And and to me that was he got a
testimony that from that moment.

1930
01:54:22,700 --> 01:54:31,000
And so that's this idea.
Is it brings man and God into A

1931
01:54:31,000 --> 01:54:34,000
singularity that officer right
word, but we become the same

1932
01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:37,600
that way.
Yeah, we have brought to our

1933
01:54:37,600 --> 01:54:41,800
remembrance, our divine identity
essentially, would you be

1934
01:54:41,800 --> 01:54:46,200
excommunicated for holding or
proposing this view to your

1935
01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:48,600
church.
If you were a mainstream LDS,

1936
01:54:49,700 --> 01:54:51,400
Depends on how you want about
it.

1937
01:54:51,500 --> 01:54:56,900
If I just gave that discourse
over a over, a Sacrament pulpit,

1938
01:54:57,300 --> 01:55:01,100
and I would get it.
I would get a talk for my bishop

1939
01:55:01,100 --> 01:55:03,800
and if I did not tell him, I
would never say that again.

1940
01:55:04,000 --> 01:55:08,200
I would be excommunicated.
Yeah.

1941
01:55:08,800 --> 01:55:13,200
It all depends on the area and
how lenient they are.

1942
01:55:13,200 --> 01:55:16,700
You know, towards you know,
having unorthodox for use,

1943
01:55:17,500 --> 01:55:21,200
there's not really a uniform
enforcement of policy on

1944
01:55:21,200 --> 01:55:23,900
beliefs.
It's all comes down to your

1945
01:55:23,900 --> 01:55:26,400
area, your Bishop, your steak
present, and sometimes it's how

1946
01:55:26,400 --> 01:55:30,800
outspoken you are, because if
you are too Spoken your bishop

1947
01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:32,500
and stake.
President might have their hands

1948
01:55:32,500 --> 01:55:35,500
tied by the general Authority
saying you have to execute this

1949
01:55:35,500 --> 01:55:38,000
guy.
Even if you don't want to sew

1950
01:55:38,000 --> 01:55:41,600
it, all it all depends on the
circumstances of the individual.

1951
01:55:42,200 --> 01:55:44,900
When you say unorthodox, it
means just you're going against

1952
01:55:44,900 --> 01:55:48,100
the current teaching, but this
is the Orthodox teaching of the

1953
01:55:48,400 --> 01:55:51,600
LDS church, you are good on you
first.

1954
01:55:51,900 --> 01:56:00,000
Good on the irony, good on you.
Right.

1955
01:56:00,700 --> 01:56:04,900
One of the things the Orthodox,
right?

1956
01:56:04,900 --> 01:56:10,000
And so when they talk about an
orthodox Mormonism, nowadays, it

1957
01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:13,600
means any Mormon, that's not
aligned with the LDS Church.

1958
01:56:15,800 --> 01:56:21,900
Yeah, and I think listen, if if
you just quickly read the early

1959
01:56:21,900 --> 01:56:25,600
Mormons and that's what I was
doing and I was like talking to

1960
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:28,500
missionaries and mainstream LDS
people and I'm like, something's

1961
01:56:28,500 --> 01:56:30,300
missing here like something
happened.

1962
01:56:30,300 --> 01:56:33,000
I don't know what happened and
so that's kind of how I fell

1963
01:56:33,000 --> 01:56:35,100
into.
I'm like well these guys

1964
01:56:35,100 --> 01:56:39,300
actually know their history and
so it's very interesting.

1965
01:56:40,700 --> 01:56:43,900
Jacob, did you have anything to
add about the atom God before we

1966
01:56:43,900 --> 01:56:47,400
jump into questions?
Yeah, I think Michael covered it

1967
01:56:47,400 --> 01:56:50,100
really.
Well the the thing I would add

1968
01:56:50,100 --> 01:56:55,200
for a non-mormon audience is,
you know, in the New Testament

1969
01:56:55,200 --> 01:56:58,300
and in certain places in the Old
Testament, there's this idea of

1970
01:56:58,300 --> 01:57:02,300
being the spiritual children of
God, you know, the spirit bear

1971
01:57:02,300 --> 01:57:04,600
witness with our spirit, that we
are the children of God.

1972
01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:09,000
Most Christians, only think of
that as applying to Christians

1973
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:11,700
as being adopted.
Children through becoming

1974
01:57:11,700 --> 01:57:15,600
Christians but I think there's a
there's verses that indicate a

1975
01:57:15,608 --> 01:57:20,700
much wider parentage of God, the
Father, for example, Hebrews 12

1976
01:57:20,700 --> 01:57:24,500
9 saying, furthermore, we have
our fathers of our flesh which

1977
01:57:24,500 --> 01:57:27,500
corrected us and we gave them.
Reverence, shall we not much

1978
01:57:27,500 --> 01:57:32,100
rather be subject unto the
father of spirits and live and

1979
01:57:32,100 --> 01:57:36,200
similarly Mormons interpret
Genesis chapter 1 verses?

1980
01:57:36,200 --> 01:57:40,200
I believe 25 to 28 very
seriously, very literally about

1981
01:57:40,300 --> 01:57:43,000
About being made in the image
and likeness of God.

1982
01:57:43,200 --> 01:57:47,000
And then you go keep reading in
Genesis and Adam create Seth and

1983
01:57:47,000 --> 01:57:51,000
his image and likeness using
very similar words, you know,

1984
01:57:51,400 --> 01:57:55,500
almost identical words there.
And so we understand that you

1985
01:57:55,500 --> 01:57:59,300
know, Jesse's one is teaching
that we are the spiritual

1986
01:57:59,300 --> 01:58:03,900
children of God.
And if God is the father of our

1987
01:58:03,900 --> 01:58:08,600
Spirits, why wouldn't he also
want to be the physical father

1988
01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:13,200
of his human fat of Of the Human
family you know Jenny logically

1989
01:58:13,200 --> 01:58:17,200
come down and start the process
and teach his first children.

1990
01:58:17,600 --> 01:58:20,600
You know the missed you know the
ways of the gospel and the

1991
01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:25,100
mysteries of God is so I see the
am God is just kind of being

1992
01:58:25,600 --> 01:58:28,600
logical.
Conclusion of the fatherhood of

1993
01:58:28,600 --> 01:58:36,200
God, my opinion.
Gotcha well, jumping jumping

1994
01:58:36,200 --> 01:58:40,200
into the first question and just
to show my hand on this issue.

1995
01:58:40,300 --> 01:58:45,400
Genesis is a very important book
to me, I take a literal view

1996
01:58:47,000 --> 01:58:49,700
which is kind of frowned upon
against Moe would like

1997
01:58:49,700 --> 01:58:51,900
intellectuals.
I went to like the ark Museum in

1998
01:58:51,900 --> 01:58:58,600
Kentucky and so I read Genesis
as like a literal Six-Day

1999
01:58:58,600 --> 01:59:01,900
creation account.
I think that's the Orc,

2000
01:59:01,900 --> 01:59:05,100
understanding of the church.
And so, how would you guys

2001
01:59:05,100 --> 01:59:10,400
understand Genesis, and maybe
let me also go into my second

2002
01:59:10,400 --> 01:59:16,100
question is, I know, Brigham
Young says this should be like,

2003
01:59:16,100 --> 01:59:21,100
it was almost taught as a fairy
tale to the Israelites.

2004
01:59:21,700 --> 01:59:23,500
So how would you guys
understand?

2005
01:59:23,700 --> 01:59:26,500
Genesis, is it literal
allegorical?

2006
01:59:27,500 --> 01:59:29,900
So I think some parts are
literal.

2007
01:59:29,900 --> 01:59:34,100
Some parts are allegorical.
My understanding of the creation

2008
01:59:34,100 --> 01:59:41,300
is I believe in an old Earth
young Creation in that.

2009
01:59:41,300 --> 01:59:45,000
I think that the material that
make up this Earth is very

2010
01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:47,900
ancient.
Joseph Smith said, it was made

2011
01:59:47,900 --> 01:59:51,600
out of pre-existing materials
from other planets as what

2012
01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:55,400
Joseph Smith taught and with the
creation, I don't personally

2013
01:59:55,400 --> 01:59:59,200
think there's the That in the
Bible that says, you know, day

2014
01:59:59,200 --> 02:00:02,800
with God is a thousand years.
So I think it was about 6,000.

2015
02:00:02,800 --> 02:00:08,900
Your creation is my personal
opinion on it and I think that I

2016
02:00:08,900 --> 02:00:12,400
don't think that's what Brigham
Young meant was being not

2017
02:00:12,400 --> 02:00:13,700
literal.
I think Brigham Young thought

2018
02:00:13,700 --> 02:00:16,400
that was literal.
That's it's taught some in a

2019
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:18,700
similar way.
In the temple in the Mormon

2020
02:00:18,700 --> 02:00:21,800
Temple endowment, the creation
is an important part of it.

2021
02:00:21,900 --> 02:00:24,900
He was just saying that certain
aspects of the Adam and Eve

2022
02:00:24,900 --> 02:00:28,700
story worked literal there.
Our parts are very literal and

2023
02:00:28,700 --> 02:00:30,200
there's parts that are
figurative.

2024
02:00:30,700 --> 02:00:33,800
And there's parts that
Christians take is figurative.

2025
02:00:33,800 --> 02:00:37,900
But Brigham Young said was very
literal and there's parts that

2026
02:00:38,700 --> 02:00:41,400
Christians take as literal.
But Brigham Young thought was

2027
02:00:41,400 --> 02:00:44,600
figurative and his Dave.
And I talked about the atom God,

2028
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,700
Doctrine, and Genesis in a
previous discussion, it's

2029
02:00:47,800 --> 02:00:51,100
ultimately takes the spirit to
help figure out what is literal

2030
02:00:51,100 --> 02:00:55,600
and what isn't in Reading
scripture, and there's obviously

2031
02:00:55,800 --> 02:00:59,200
different interpretations, but
Think they're obviously was a

2032
02:00:59,200 --> 02:01:04,700
very literal Adam and Eve, and I
think most of the garden of each

2033
02:01:04,800 --> 02:01:08,000
eat Garden of Eden story is
historical.

2034
02:01:08,100 --> 02:01:10,500
It's my opinion.
I don't know with Michael as any

2035
02:01:10,500 --> 02:01:14,500
other thoughts on that or date.
Yeah, I'm a.

2036
02:01:15,300 --> 02:01:19,900
I also view it being allegorical
and and literal maybe even more

2037
02:01:19,900 --> 02:01:22,300
a little bit allegorical.
I know in the book of Abraham

2038
02:01:22,300 --> 02:01:26,100
account of the creation, when
the gods are engaged in these

2039
02:01:26,100 --> 02:01:29,500
laborers, then They say call
your labor or is it the

2040
02:01:29,500 --> 02:01:31,000
endowment?
The idea.

2041
02:01:31,000 --> 02:01:34,100
Now, and they say, call your
Labor's the first day, the

2042
02:01:34,100 --> 02:01:38,000
second day, the third day and so
your titling, I almost like

2043
02:01:38,000 --> 02:01:41,000
you're on a work project.
What these these phases for the

2044
02:01:41,000 --> 02:01:44,600
creation in your calling them
days in the book of Abraham?

2045
02:01:45,000 --> 02:01:47,900
It says that the gods went down
the first time.

2046
02:01:47,900 --> 02:01:52,500
The second time, the third time,
the fourth time, you know, and

2047
02:01:52,500 --> 02:01:54,300
so on.
And so it's indefinite, but

2048
02:01:54,300 --> 02:01:56,500
they're dead.
What it shows is that the gods

2049
02:01:56,500 --> 02:02:00,000
were Sing it and returning to
the heavens and descending.

2050
02:02:01,900 --> 02:02:05,700
Each time to do to do this work
and I wouldn't put a wouldn't

2051
02:02:05,700 --> 02:02:10,700
put a you know being a day or a
thousand years on on it although

2052
02:02:10,700 --> 02:02:13,200
you know I understand where
those interpretations come from.

2053
02:02:13,500 --> 02:02:19,200
I also agree with Jacob on the
Older as young creation kind of

2054
02:02:19,208 --> 02:02:21,500
a thing and you can kind of
maybe even see that and read

2055
02:02:21,500 --> 02:02:24,800
that into in Genesis, where it
says the Earth was already

2056
02:02:24,800 --> 02:02:27,400
there.
When the gods came, it was just

2057
02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:30,200
without it was it was empty and
desolate, as you know, it's not

2058
02:02:30,300 --> 02:02:34,100
gets rendered, you know, the
best, you know, Gods came down,

2059
02:02:34,100 --> 02:02:37,200
it was it was empty and desolate
when they got there and Joseph

2060
02:02:37,200 --> 02:02:40,800
Smith taught that it was, it had
been created from the remnants

2061
02:02:40,800 --> 02:02:45,700
of other worlds which even.
Yeah, I won't go into that but

2062
02:02:45,700 --> 02:02:48,400
that's that's all.
I can see that.

2063
02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:52,300
I think that's all I got on
that.

2064
02:02:52,300 --> 02:02:54,000
I think I had something but it
slipped my mind.

2065
02:02:54,000 --> 02:02:58,100
So we'll just go from there.
Yeah, and so go ahead.

2066
02:02:58,600 --> 02:03:03,700
I think also this this also goes
to, you know, it in your

2067
02:03:03,700 --> 02:03:06,400
question of, is it allegorical
or literal?

2068
02:03:07,300 --> 02:03:12,200
I agree with both Michael and
and Jacob that it's both, right?

2069
02:03:12,900 --> 02:03:16,400
When you start talking about the
Adam and Eve story in depth, you

2070
02:03:16,400 --> 02:03:19,900
really do start dealing with
Melchizedek priesthood kind of

2071
02:03:19,900 --> 02:03:24,200
stuff, right?
Often It's associated with in

2072
02:03:24,200 --> 02:03:28,100
Mormonism with temple, rights,
and Temple endowments, and those

2073
02:03:28,100 --> 02:03:30,700
sorts of things.
And so those aren't things that

2074
02:03:30,700 --> 02:03:34,500
we just toss around lightly.
And if this is the restoration

2075
02:03:34,500 --> 02:03:37,100
of the Gospel, I think we could
have expected.

2076
02:03:37,600 --> 02:03:42,900
Moses, who wrote this stuff
down, also would have treated it

2077
02:03:42,900 --> 02:03:50,100
with a certain amount of
sanctity and reverence in.

2078
02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:54,400
How he approached it Michael, I
saw you had your hand raised.

2079
02:03:54,400 --> 02:03:57,900
Would you have your reminds me
of what I wanted to say?

2080
02:03:57,900 --> 02:04:00,100
So we're talking about
Melchizedek priesthood items and

2081
02:04:00,100 --> 02:04:03,100
maybe you know, although I'm
sure some what I think you know,

2082
02:04:03,100 --> 02:04:07,600
based off of this but you nibbly
points out in, in the work that

2083
02:04:07,600 --> 02:04:10,300
he did to defend the book of
Abraham, you know, and he had

2084
02:04:10,300 --> 02:04:12,800
the Egyptian Book of the Dead
and the, you know, the horse

2085
02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:14,700
book a breathing's and all that
stuff.

2086
02:04:15,100 --> 02:04:16,800
And he did some brilliant work
there.

2087
02:04:16,800 --> 02:04:21,600
I loved it and he brings out how
you know You know, so the book

2088
02:04:21,600 --> 02:04:24,400
of Abraham was a catalyst for
Joseph Smith, developing the

2089
02:04:24,400 --> 02:04:27,900
endowment and what we're in what
was in among those, those papers

2090
02:04:27,900 --> 02:04:31,500
the papyri were was the Egyptian
Book of, you know, the book of

2091
02:04:31,500 --> 02:04:34,300
breathing's which is the
endowment where when a person is

2092
02:04:34,300 --> 02:04:37,800
going to die, they give them
their endowment and the person

2093
02:04:37,800 --> 02:04:43,200
takes the initiate.
Takes the role of God or a God

2094
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:46,400
and you go through this drama,
as you prepare for your burial

2095
02:04:47,600 --> 02:04:50,400
and there's something striking
there.

2096
02:04:50,600 --> 02:04:58,100
R where you lay down as a, as a,
as you're being reformed, as

2097
02:04:58,100 --> 02:05:01,500
you're being resurrected in
this, in the ceremony, you've,

2098
02:05:01,500 --> 02:05:03,500
you're going in as a God, but
you've died.

2099
02:05:03,500 --> 02:05:06,900
You're being resurrected now.
And the other gods come and

2100
02:05:06,900 --> 02:05:10,700
you're laying down and they make
your body out of dirt out of

2101
02:05:10,700 --> 02:05:12,900
clay.
Yeah, like an adobe and then

2102
02:05:12,900 --> 02:05:16,000
they breathe the breath of life
into you, you know, the gods do.

2103
02:05:16,200 --> 02:05:18,400
And you see that.
And I believe, you know, we see

2104
02:05:18,400 --> 02:05:21,300
this in the Book of Mormon with
this reform to Russian stuff.

2105
02:05:21,300 --> 02:05:24,800
And I see some how I can tie
that into my own theology like

2106
02:05:25,200 --> 02:05:28,000
when Moses was giving this
Parable story to the children of

2107
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:31,400
Israel coming out of Egypt, how
could he teach them?

2108
02:05:31,400 --> 02:05:34,700
The gospel esoterically in a way
that they can understand, he

2109
02:05:34,700 --> 02:05:38,600
would use what they were
teaching in Egypt and put in

2110
02:05:38,600 --> 02:05:41,700
this.
How God your father Adam what

2111
02:05:41,700 --> 02:05:45,500
you know the story about him is
at what I believe is an allegory

2112
02:05:45,500 --> 02:05:49,100
of him being made out of the
clay is really what they would

2113
02:05:49,100 --> 02:05:51,900
understand of the god.
Gods are actually resurrecting

2114
02:05:51,900 --> 02:05:53,300
him and putting his Spirit back
at him.

2115
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:56,200
And so, he actually came here as
a resurrected being and that's

2116
02:05:56,200 --> 02:05:59,200
how I view.
Yeah, I've made that connection

2117
02:05:59,200 --> 02:06:01,100
there with what Hugh Nibley
said.

2118
02:06:01,100 --> 02:06:04,500
He didn't explicitly say that
this was Adam God, but I knew

2119
02:06:04,500 --> 02:06:06,800
enough to think what he was, you
know, to see what he was putting

2120
02:06:06,800 --> 02:06:11,700
down there.
So you're saying that Moses was

2121
02:06:11,700 --> 02:06:14,600
getting his endowment from the
Egyptians.

2122
02:06:15,300 --> 02:06:17,200
Would you say that the Egyptians
got it from?

2123
02:06:17,200 --> 02:06:20,100
Abraham is kind of the other
thing that Hugh Nibley argues,

2124
02:06:21,100 --> 02:06:23,400
well, whatever, whatever the
Egyptians had, obviously can't.

2125
02:06:23,400 --> 02:06:25,700
Yeah, we see that in the book of
Abraham, like you're saying,

2126
02:06:25,900 --> 02:06:29,000
like, they faint claim, the
priesthood through through Noah,

2127
02:06:29,100 --> 02:06:32,600
you know, the imitated their
government after the priesthood

2128
02:06:32,600 --> 02:06:35,200
that was the first rain the
patriarchal reign of Adam.

2129
02:06:35,500 --> 02:06:38,400
You know they imitated those
things and so that's how

2130
02:06:38,500 --> 02:06:40,900
Apostasy works, is you start out
with all this truth?

2131
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:43,700
And then the truth disseminates,
although you adulterated with

2132
02:06:43,700 --> 02:06:47,500
other elements, but then it
takes a restoration to purge out

2133
02:06:47,500 --> 02:06:50,500
the dross and you get back to
that original stuff and so,

2134
02:06:50,500 --> 02:06:52,500
yeah, I think that.
Yeah, the, the Egyptians got it

2135
02:06:52,500 --> 02:06:57,100
from Abraham and they sought to
imitate the first train, and

2136
02:06:57,100 --> 02:07:02,600
then Moses took that and put it
into the creation story to teach

2137
02:07:02,600 --> 02:07:04,800
them.
Anyone who had eyes to see, you

2138
02:07:04,800 --> 02:07:08,300
know, because they took the key
of knowledge I believe for the

2139
02:07:08,300 --> 02:07:10,000
know.
The priest of the way but they

2140
02:07:10,000 --> 02:07:12,600
still left those little
breadcrumb trails in the

2141
02:07:12,600 --> 02:07:15,000
scriptures.
I believe it would be

2142
02:07:15,000 --> 02:07:20,800
interesting to do a deep dive on
like Egyptian creation stories.

2143
02:07:21,400 --> 02:07:25,300
You know to look at that.
Bye.

2144
02:07:25,300 --> 02:07:28,900
You guys kind of answered some
of my questions, you know, Adam

2145
02:07:28,900 --> 02:07:32,900
being created from the dust
while also, so you're saying,

2146
02:07:33,900 --> 02:07:38,500
Basically.
Adam was a resurrected being but

2147
02:07:38,500 --> 02:07:43,000
maybe came into this planet.
And how would you guys

2148
02:07:43,000 --> 02:07:47,900
understand in Genesis 3:19?
It says he was created from the

2149
02:07:47,900 --> 02:07:51,500
dust.
I I like what Michael said,

2150
02:07:51,500 --> 02:07:57,500
where it's referencing his
resurrection and that he he was

2151
02:07:57,500 --> 02:08:00,700
created from the dust on just
Brigham Young would say he was

2152
02:08:00,700 --> 02:08:04,600
created from the dust of the of
the earth, just not of this

2153
02:08:04,600 --> 02:08:06,400
Earth, he would say he was
created from the Dust.

2154
02:08:06,600 --> 02:08:10,000
Another is what Brigham Young
would say on that.

2155
02:08:10,100 --> 02:08:13,300
So, another couple things that
Brigham Young would use to argue

2156
02:08:13,700 --> 02:08:16,900
for, well, to say that, the atom
God Doctrine is hidden in the

2157
02:08:16,900 --> 02:08:22,800
Genesis account is the reference
to, you know, that.

2158
02:08:22,900 --> 02:08:28,600
So so easy would point out that
Adam and Eve were familiar with

2159
02:08:28,600 --> 02:08:32,000
God enough, that they just
needed to hear his footsteps to

2160
02:08:32,600 --> 02:08:35,700
know, that know who it was, who
is coming to him and he said and

2161
02:08:35,700 --> 02:08:39,500
so Brigham Young with Say that's
proof that Adam and Eve really

2162
02:08:39,500 --> 02:08:43,700
knew God from a previous time
before being in the Garden of

2163
02:08:43,700 --> 02:08:46,600
Eden that they had a
relationship with them.

2164
02:08:46,600 --> 02:08:50,900
And they really knew their God
long before they were placed in

2165
02:08:50,900 --> 02:08:53,000
the garden.
The other thing that Reagan

2166
02:08:53,000 --> 02:08:57,100
would use is the creation of Eve
or Eve is presented to Adam.

2167
02:08:57,100 --> 02:09:00,300
He would obviously say the rib
story was metaphorical or

2168
02:09:00,300 --> 02:09:04,100
figurative but he says that
she's presented to him as his

2169
02:09:04,100 --> 02:09:06,100
wife.
There is a he says and so he

2170
02:09:06,100 --> 02:09:08,400
said Some perhaps would say
there was a great marriage

2171
02:09:08,400 --> 02:09:10,600
ceremony in the garden.
He says, I don't see any

2172
02:09:10,900 --> 02:09:14,500
marriage ceremony in the garden.
This is just gotten Adams God,

2173
02:09:14,500 --> 02:09:16,700
saying done.
Here's the wife, you have had

2174
02:09:16,700 --> 02:09:20,200
for so long, your bone of your
bone, flesh of your flesh, you

2175
02:09:20,200 --> 02:09:24,900
know, and he's just giving him
presenting to him his own wife,

2176
02:09:24,900 --> 02:09:28,100
that he's already had.
And another verse that I would

2177
02:09:28,100 --> 02:09:30,600
use to support this idea of the
atom.

2178
02:09:30,600 --> 02:09:34,300
God, Doctrine is a verse that
Christians would generally take

2179
02:09:34,500 --> 02:09:39,300
metaphorically or As a prophet
prophetically and not literally,

2180
02:09:39,400 --> 02:09:41,800
but we're Adam said that right
after.

2181
02:09:41,800 --> 02:09:45,900
That, Adam says, therefore,
shall a man, leave his father

2182
02:09:45,900 --> 02:09:48,500
and mother and shall cleave unto
his wife and be one flesh.

2183
02:09:48,500 --> 02:09:52,500
So that's indicates that Adam
had both a father and a mother

2184
02:09:52,500 --> 02:09:55,700
that he is leaving to cleave
unto Eve his wife.

2185
02:09:55,900 --> 02:10:00,000
And so I would use that to argue
both The Offspring of God idea

2186
02:10:00,400 --> 02:10:03,000
is hidden in there.
And that, you know, the idea of

2187
02:10:03,000 --> 02:10:06,000
both having it heavenly father
and a heavenly mother has hidden

2188
02:10:06,000 --> 02:10:08,500
in that.
Prophetic verse in Genesis.

2189
02:10:10,800 --> 02:10:16,200
yeah, I think if there's if
there's any part of the Adam God

2190
02:10:16,200 --> 02:10:20,200
doctrine that Begins to Boggle
my mind.

2191
02:10:20,200 --> 02:10:26,000
It's the idea of Adam one being
our Father God, but then he has

2192
02:10:26,300 --> 02:10:29,900
a father and mother and then
Adams follow.

2193
02:10:29,900 --> 02:10:32,800
It's almost like this infinite
progression.

2194
02:10:33,600 --> 02:10:39,200
And so, Do you see Adam's father
throughout the rest of scripture

2195
02:10:39,900 --> 02:10:43,100
is that.
Like so obviously I when Adam is

2196
02:10:43,100 --> 02:10:46,500
in the garden he's talking and
here's the footsteps of his

2197
02:10:46,500 --> 02:10:50,800
father.
How does that play out in the

2198
02:10:50,800 --> 02:10:53,500
rest of scripture?
Is that, is that another God?

2199
02:10:53,500 --> 02:10:56,800
I know, there's like a trinity
of gods.

2200
02:10:57,100 --> 02:11:02,300
How does that work?
I think go ahead Jacob.

2201
02:11:03,700 --> 02:11:06,900
Well Dave and I actually talked
about this a bit in our Adam God

2202
02:11:06,900 --> 02:11:13,700
discussion in depth but the my
opinion and that I think David

2203
02:11:13,700 --> 02:11:17,100
greed with me was this idea that
while Adam is in mortality that

2204
02:11:17,100 --> 02:11:22,400
his father acted in his stead
for him as God and their

2205
02:11:22,400 --> 02:11:25,600
statements by like Brigham
Young, where he says that

2206
02:11:25,600 --> 02:11:29,400
whatever God's Enix are the ones
that we implied.

2207
02:11:29,700 --> 02:11:33,000
Different gods and that Enoch
saw at that time than the ones

2208
02:11:33,000 --> 02:11:37,200
that we know.
And so, yeah, I don't know.

2209
02:11:37,200 --> 02:11:41,000
Dave, do you want to give a
answer or Michael either of you?

2210
02:11:42,200 --> 02:11:46,800
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think
there's two things to keep in

2211
02:11:46,800 --> 02:11:49,300
mind here as we're discussing
this.

2212
02:11:49,300 --> 02:11:53,300
And, and that is kind of a
cursory understanding for any of

2213
02:11:53,300 --> 02:11:56,500
the listeners who maybe haven't
listened to those other

2214
02:11:56,500 --> 02:11:58,500
podcaster done.
A deep dive on.

2215
02:11:58,500 --> 02:12:02,900
Adam God, that themselves is
that this is very much a family

2216
02:12:02,900 --> 02:12:09,500
affair, right?
So as as Adam is, is performing

2217
02:12:09,500 --> 02:12:13,400
his task on this Earth.
His father is filling in for

2218
02:12:13,400 --> 02:12:17,600
him.
In in the other Realms so to

2219
02:12:17,600 --> 02:12:22,000
speak, right?
He's he's performing that task.

2220
02:12:22,300 --> 02:12:26,600
So oftentimes when we look at
Adam God Doctrine and then that

2221
02:12:26,600 --> 02:12:30,200
inevitably leads to the same
kind of questions that you had

2222
02:12:30,200 --> 02:12:34,200
Billy, I those aren't under
uncommon questions when you

2223
02:12:34,200 --> 02:12:36,900
first encounter this, it's a
family affair.

2224
02:12:37,100 --> 02:12:41,500
So yes, Adam has a God and while
Adam is fulfilling his role as

2225
02:12:41,500 --> 02:12:45,300
the progenitor of the human
race, it's his Other that steps

2226
02:12:45,300 --> 02:12:48,100
inform Michael Jacob.
Do you guys have?

2227
02:12:48,600 --> 02:12:51,600
Is there anything in that answer
that you would take exception

2228
02:12:51,600 --> 02:12:53,000
with?
No.

2229
02:12:53,000 --> 02:13:00,100
No, I didn't want to add one
thing to what.

2230
02:13:00,100 --> 02:13:04,300
Jacob.
Jacob ended was quoting Genesis

2231
02:13:04,300 --> 02:13:05,200
3.
You know.

2232
02:13:05,200 --> 02:13:10,400
The Adam says, a man will leave
his father and mother and be one

2233
02:13:10,400 --> 02:13:12,000
flesh.
It's also interesting, there's

2234
02:13:12,000 --> 02:13:16,000
an atom God, you know.
Kind of scripture in Matthew 19

2235
02:13:16,000 --> 02:13:18,900
where Christ is talking to the
Pharisees and Sadducees, don't

2236
02:13:18,900 --> 02:13:22,700
remember which, and he quotes
that and he says, do you not

2237
02:13:22,700 --> 02:13:24,700
know, remember how it is said
that?

2238
02:13:24,700 --> 02:13:30,400
He at the beginning, who created
them said, let no Mia, let them

2239
02:13:30,400 --> 02:13:32,600
leave their father, and their
mother, you know, and cleave

2240
02:13:32,600 --> 02:13:35,500
unto their life and is literally
a quote from Adam.

2241
02:13:35,600 --> 02:13:37,200
Yeah.
And sort of Christ is almost

2242
02:13:37,200 --> 02:13:40,600
putting that.
And, you know, is that the atom,

2243
02:13:40,600 --> 02:13:43,200
the one who said, this quote, is
he that created them?

2244
02:13:44,000 --> 02:13:49,100
Female from the beginning.
And I think that's interesting

2245
02:13:49,100 --> 02:13:52,000
with Luke chapter 3.
You know a says you get this

2246
02:13:52,000 --> 02:13:55,900
Jenny ology and it says Adam was
the son of God and you know and

2247
02:13:55,900 --> 02:14:00,300
so I do think that as we're
touched on like there's this

2248
02:14:00,300 --> 02:14:06,800
whole Dynasty, this Royal
Dynasty above the If you don't

2249
02:14:06,800 --> 02:14:09,600
believe that they are invested
in their children, you're a fool

2250
02:14:09,600 --> 02:14:14,100
is what I would say.
You know, they, they get there.

2251
02:14:15,400 --> 02:14:18,700
They get their next round of
posterity through us being

2252
02:14:18,700 --> 02:14:20,800
glorified in them.
You know.

2253
02:14:20,800 --> 02:14:23,100
Brigham Young one said
something.

2254
02:14:23,100 --> 02:14:26,500
You know, he says that your
kingdom will be your posterity

2255
02:14:27,200 --> 02:14:30,800
and he says, well could I be
vindictive a centering cut off

2256
02:14:30,800 --> 02:14:33,900
all my posterity from my from
the blessings that they would

2257
02:14:33,900 --> 02:14:35,800
have?
Why would I do that?

2258
02:14:35,800 --> 02:14:39,600
I would rather be annihilated
than being in in such a

2259
02:14:39,600 --> 02:14:43,900
condition not to have my
posterity, you know, to to have

2260
02:14:43,900 --> 02:14:46,900
in the eternity' and to give
those blessings to and to

2261
02:14:46,900 --> 02:14:49,800
mutually glorify them and then
they add glory to him.

2262
02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:53,800
And that's the whole idea with
exaltation is we're actually

2263
02:14:53,800 --> 02:14:58,100
adding glory to the father and
God says to you know to us

2264
02:14:58,100 --> 02:15:00,900
through the scriptures.
You know this is my beloved Son

2265
02:15:00,900 --> 02:15:04,200
in whom I am well pleased in
whom I have glorified my own

2266
02:15:04,200 --> 02:15:08,900
name you know and so God is
glorifying himself and this goes

2267
02:15:08,900 --> 02:15:12,400
back to Joseph Smith saying
self-aggrandizement is a correct

2268
02:15:12,400 --> 02:15:16,000
Principle as As you use it to
build up others.

2269
02:15:20,300 --> 02:15:24,900
I would also just add.
I mean it's a it's a section of

2270
02:15:24,900 --> 02:15:30,400
scripture that we as Mormons
quote as nauseam, but God says,

2271
02:15:30,400 --> 02:15:33,700
in the Pro, a great price, you
know, this is my work and this

2272
02:15:33,700 --> 02:15:37,700
is my glory to bring to pass the
immortality of man.

2273
02:15:37,700 --> 02:15:42,000
I think that gets quoted so
often that we really miss the

2274
02:15:42,000 --> 02:15:46,900
true, significance of what God
is saying, it's for us, right?

2275
02:15:46,900 --> 02:15:52,600
And, and if Live correct will
have that same opportunity.

2276
02:15:52,600 --> 02:15:56,500
He does of us working for the
glory of our children.

2277
02:15:57,400 --> 02:16:05,000
I think I think we're well we're
either all our fathers or we

2278
02:16:05,000 --> 02:16:09,900
will be Father's at some point
and there is nothing I wouldn't

2279
02:16:09,900 --> 02:16:14,900
do for my kids, right?
And they really are my work and

2280
02:16:14,900 --> 02:16:19,500
my glory, everything I do at
sand at some level is for them

2281
02:16:19,900 --> 02:16:24,800
and if God really is our father,
how much more must he feel than

2282
02:16:24,800 --> 02:16:29,500
what we can feel in this in on
this planet.

2283
02:16:30,200 --> 02:16:35,500
Yeah, I think hearing this the
biggest push back.

2284
02:16:38,700 --> 02:16:42,200
Christian's would have or
evangelicals would have would be

2285
02:16:42,700 --> 02:16:49,000
or even Catholics would be the
idea that there might be greater

2286
02:16:49,000 --> 02:16:54,000
God's because throughout
scripture, you have this idea of

2287
02:16:54,000 --> 02:16:59,200
like, God is God Almighty, the
most powerful, Deuteronomy

2288
02:16:59,299 --> 02:17:02,900
10:17, the Lord, your God is
your God and God of Lord of

2289
02:17:02,900 --> 02:17:07,100
lords.
So this Supremacy supremacy of

2290
02:17:07,100 --> 02:17:12,200
God the father and so, One of
the, the hard part's is like how

2291
02:17:12,200 --> 02:17:15,900
do you make sense of that?
If God the father has a father

2292
02:17:15,900 --> 02:17:20,200
who might be more wise than him
who's who's live longer, who

2293
02:17:20,200 --> 02:17:23,600
might be more powerful, who is
experienced more creations and

2294
02:17:23,600 --> 02:17:26,100
things like this?
And so how would you guys

2295
02:17:26,100 --> 02:17:28,799
understand that?
Because I think that's going to

2296
02:17:28,799 --> 02:17:31,400
be the hardest part for anyone
hearing this.

2297
02:17:34,500 --> 02:17:38,200
Well, for me, I as I've thought
about that and again Jacob and

2298
02:17:38,200 --> 02:17:41,900
Michael jump in.
You have my girls but Michael

2299
02:17:41,900 --> 02:17:44,299
gets answer this one first but I
was just going to say, does this

2300
02:17:44,299 --> 02:17:48,400
go along with your Isaiah 43:10
question about?

2301
02:17:48,400 --> 02:17:51,400
No, God, formed before him nor
will be the what there one after

2302
02:17:51,400 --> 02:17:53,000
him.
I'm Billy.

2303
02:17:53,700 --> 02:17:56,500
Yeah, you know what, a 10, it
certainly can.

2304
02:17:56,600 --> 02:18:00,799
I mean that's just playing into
this idea that there's like, it

2305
02:18:00,799 --> 02:18:04,100
seems like this thematic
structure throughout the old and

2306
02:18:04,100 --> 02:18:05,799
new.
Estimate of like there is no

2307
02:18:05,799 --> 02:18:09,100
Gods before me and things like
this and so yeah.

2308
02:18:09,100 --> 02:18:10,400
Absolutely.
We could combine those

2309
02:18:10,400 --> 02:18:13,600
questions.
Oh, I'd love to take a step that

2310
02:18:13,600 --> 02:18:17,299
context with Old Testament.
Israel is so important that it's

2311
02:18:17,299 --> 02:18:19,900
not like we were as Mormons
believe that Bales are real

2312
02:18:19,900 --> 02:18:22,400
entity or that you know Molech
or day off.

2313
02:18:22,500 --> 02:18:24,400
And these are these are these
are false gods in the

2314
02:18:24,400 --> 02:18:26,600
scriptures.
Tell us that these were wife was

2315
02:18:26,600 --> 02:18:29,700
Idols that people are putting
their faith in right as their

2316
02:18:29,700 --> 02:18:32,100
God is very concerned about
putting their faith in something

2317
02:18:32,100 --> 02:18:35,100
that was going to be.
Actually going to benefit them

2318
02:18:37,000 --> 02:18:39,500
you know but in the eternity'
you know which is beyond the

2319
02:18:39,508 --> 02:18:41,799
scope of what they were what was
revealed to them.

2320
02:18:41,799 --> 02:18:44,100
I think there's some there's
some different rules and there's

2321
02:18:44,100 --> 02:18:47,700
some play there.
There's a but address.

2322
02:18:47,700 --> 02:18:51,100
The question that the last asks
us here is like what do we do

2323
02:18:51,100 --> 02:18:53,900
with these?
This idea that other gods no

2324
02:18:53,900 --> 02:18:57,400
more than are our personal God.
I think that's a wonderful

2325
02:18:57,400 --> 02:19:01,000
question.
Yeah, that's exactly.

2326
02:19:01,000 --> 02:19:05,400
It's like this idea that there
are greater gods that no more,

2327
02:19:05,500 --> 02:19:10,600
that has experienced more I, I
don't know if I can take that

2328
02:19:10,600 --> 02:19:13,000
away because that's this, I do
believe that that's the case.

2329
02:19:13,000 --> 02:19:15,600
But let me give you some
something.

2330
02:19:15,600 --> 02:19:20,200
I read the BYU, put out back in
the 1960s for the best things

2331
02:19:20,200 --> 02:19:22,600
I've ever done.
By a professor named James

2332
02:19:22,600 --> 02:19:27,200
Harris in 1963 or 67.
I want to say, and he called

2333
02:19:27,200 --> 02:19:30,299
this, this paper, This research
paper called The Eternal

2334
02:19:30,299 --> 02:19:32,299
progression and foreknowledge of
God.

2335
02:19:33,600 --> 02:19:37,799
And in it, he starts out this
paper by listing all the quotes

2336
02:19:37,799 --> 02:19:41,600
from General Authorities saying
that God possesses all knowledge

2337
02:19:41,600 --> 02:19:44,100
and that he'll never learn that.
He has all these things that

2338
02:19:44,299 --> 02:19:46,700
they that basically.
So you can put all your faith in

2339
02:19:46,708 --> 02:19:50,200
him and then there's no
variableness simmer in him or

2340
02:19:50,200 --> 02:19:53,600
shadow of changing.
Then he looks all the quotes

2341
02:19:54,800 --> 02:19:58,600
from from General Authorities in
the church saying that God can

2342
02:19:58,600 --> 02:20:03,500
progress that he will increase
in his attributes of Knowledge,

2343
02:20:03,700 --> 02:20:08,300
as the eternities Roll On, And
even points out how sometimes

2344
02:20:08,300 --> 02:20:15,300
there's the same person if this
is the same person saying, you

2345
02:20:15,300 --> 02:20:17,500
know, something in each
campsite, right?

2346
02:20:17,500 --> 02:20:20,300
And so, then he goes on in the
rest of the papers.

2347
02:20:20,300 --> 02:20:23,800
How do we reconcile list?
And I absolutely love that

2348
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:26,700
paper.
The way the kind of the

2349
02:20:26,700 --> 02:20:31,300
conclusion, That he brings up
his.

2350
02:20:32,400 --> 02:20:36,900
The and he has a diagram that he
creates and I wish I could like

2351
02:20:36,900 --> 02:20:38,200
throw it on the screen and show
you.

2352
02:20:38,700 --> 02:20:42,300
But there's this idea that
there's that each God, who

2353
02:20:42,300 --> 02:20:45,900
obtains, his exaltation has
obtained, his exaltation through

2354
02:20:45,900 --> 02:20:49,100
the personal experiences that
he's had through that mortality

2355
02:20:49,200 --> 02:20:50,800
and he's obtained that
Resurrection.

2356
02:20:51,200 --> 02:20:53,400
But so then you would have to
ask the question.

2357
02:20:53,400 --> 02:20:56,600
What does that you know, how you
live one life or whatever?

2358
02:20:56,600 --> 02:20:59,800
And so what are you going to do
when something happens on the

2359
02:20:59,808 --> 02:21:01,900
world's that you're creating
that you have no experience?

2360
02:21:02,300 --> 02:21:03,800
How are you going to deal with
that?

2361
02:21:03,800 --> 02:21:07,800
And he says, well you have a
universe full of exalted fathers

2362
02:21:08,100 --> 02:21:10,500
that have all obtain their
exaltation based on their own

2363
02:21:10,500 --> 02:21:14,600
experiences and through
Consecration and of

2364
02:21:14,600 --> 02:21:19,200
intelligence, every exalted,
father has access to all the

2365
02:21:19,200 --> 02:21:23,600
experiences of all the other
exalted father's, you know.

2366
02:21:23,600 --> 02:21:28,800
So if one thing were too, so
each God, while there might be

2367
02:21:28,800 --> 02:21:32,800
other gods above him in a
hierarchy, patriarch lie, God

2368
02:21:32,800 --> 02:21:36,900
has all access through all
experienced in all knowledge

2369
02:21:37,400 --> 02:21:40,500
through his family, through all,
those who have gone before him.

2370
02:21:40,900 --> 02:21:43,700
And so, while he hadn't
experienced that personally per

2371
02:21:43,700 --> 02:21:48,300
se, I love that that it's a, you
know, the business Divine

2372
02:21:48,300 --> 02:21:53,100
Storehouse of the mind of the
Holy Spirit of knowledge and

2373
02:21:53,500 --> 02:21:57,700
that God, then that allows us to
put all this Things in

2374
02:21:57,700 --> 02:22:00,400
perspective that God is
individually still progressing

2375
02:22:00,400 --> 02:22:04,500
in attaining, New Heights and
new glories, but he has all

2376
02:22:04,500 --> 02:22:08,000
access to information necessary
for us to put faith in him.

2377
02:22:08,000 --> 02:22:14,500
Understand unto our salvation,
and exaltation Very interesting.

2378
02:22:15,000 --> 02:22:16,300
Take up.
You have anything to add?

2379
02:22:17,200 --> 02:22:20,300
Yeah I would say what the early
Mormons would say about God.

2380
02:22:20,300 --> 02:22:23,600
The father is I couldn't have
confidence in a god that is

2381
02:22:23,600 --> 02:22:27,400
putting me through all these
trials and hardships and

2382
02:22:27,400 --> 02:22:29,600
experience.
I kind of I can't have

2383
02:22:29,600 --> 02:22:33,100
confidence that he really feels
and understands what I'm going

2384
02:22:33,100 --> 02:22:37,000
through unless he has been
through a similar experience, is

2385
02:22:37,000 --> 02:22:38,800
what they said.
And so we don't and so like,

2386
02:22:38,800 --> 02:22:42,000
Orson, I would say we don't
serve General.

2387
02:22:42,300 --> 02:22:46,300
Who has who wouldn't do what he
sending others to do.

2388
02:22:46,300 --> 02:22:49,100
We serve a general who has gone
through what we have

2389
02:22:49,100 --> 02:22:52,200
experienced.
I think that philosophically is

2390
02:22:52,300 --> 02:22:57,100
the strongest philosophical
argument for God having once

2391
02:22:57,100 --> 02:22:59,400
been a man and progress to
godhood.

2392
02:23:00,000 --> 02:23:03,600
I agree that it's probably the
hardest thing that and teaching

2393
02:23:03,600 --> 02:23:06,800
different people Mormon
fundamentalism, who come from a

2394
02:23:06,808 --> 02:23:09,100
non-mormon background, that's
definitely.

2395
02:23:09,100 --> 02:23:12,200
I agreed that they say that's
the hardest thing is this The

2396
02:23:12,200 --> 02:23:17,900
idea of God's above God, the
Father, this idea of, you know,

2397
02:23:17,900 --> 02:23:21,400
this is totally different
cosmology and it's not really in

2398
02:23:21,400 --> 02:23:24,800
the Bible and I agree.
It's not stated in the Bible but

2399
02:23:24,800 --> 02:23:26,400
you know, according to
Mormonism.

2400
02:23:26,400 --> 02:23:30,900
This is the dispensation where
things that you know that there

2401
02:23:30,900 --> 02:23:34,600
would be hidden mysteries
revealed about the nature of God

2402
02:23:34,600 --> 02:23:37,800
and the nature of you know that
there would be new knowledge

2403
02:23:37,800 --> 02:23:40,500
given in this.
Dispensation though I do think

2404
02:23:40,500 --> 02:23:44,400
that there are things in Should
tradition and in the scriptures

2405
02:23:44,400 --> 02:23:47,400
that would hint at God.
Having once gone through a

2406
02:23:47,400 --> 02:23:51,000
mortal existence, what Joseph
Smith cited in the king, Follett

2407
02:23:51,000 --> 02:23:56,200
discourse was John 5:19 where
Jesus himself says that the sun

2408
02:23:56,200 --> 02:23:59,600
does do with nothing but what he
is sees the father doing.

2409
02:23:59,900 --> 02:24:02,900
So he's saying that you know
he's doing what he saw his

2410
02:24:02,900 --> 02:24:06,700
father do.
And so Joseph Smith would say

2411
02:24:06,700 --> 02:24:09,200
and so what did the father do?
He had power to lay down his

2412
02:24:09,200 --> 02:24:14,400
life and redeem a world and And
so, Jesus Christ also has the

2413
02:24:14,400 --> 02:24:17,500
power to lay down his life and
raise it up again redeeming an

2414
02:24:17,500 --> 02:24:21,400
earth.
So that, that's how I would look

2415
02:24:21,400 --> 02:24:26,700
at the gods above God, the
Father doctrinally to answer the

2416
02:24:26,700 --> 02:24:29,300
other question about the
scriptures about there, only

2417
02:24:29,300 --> 02:24:32,900
being one God.
And I think the best way to look

2418
02:24:32,900 --> 02:24:36,100
at it is the I think it's called
Mono.

2419
02:24:36,100 --> 02:24:38,900
That can't forget, I can't use
that.

2420
02:24:39,000 --> 02:24:43,300
I can't remember the exact term
but Is another term that similar

2421
02:24:43,300 --> 02:24:45,700
called henotheism.
The idea that there's only what

2422
02:24:45,700 --> 02:24:48,800
there's only a got certain God
for us, but there are other jobs

2423
02:24:48,800 --> 02:24:54,400
out there is the I think the
other terms model are he isn't

2424
02:24:55,600 --> 02:24:59,100
mono lateral ISM model, laterals
and thanks Michael.

2425
02:25:00,100 --> 02:25:04,600
So in First Corinthians chapter
8 there's this verse after

2426
02:25:04,600 --> 02:25:09,600
Paul's talking about you know I
you know as two sacrifices to

2427
02:25:09,600 --> 02:25:12,200
Idols.
We know that I idols Thing in

2428
02:25:12,208 --> 02:25:13,600
the world and there's none other
God.

2429
02:25:13,600 --> 02:25:19,000
But 14, though there be that
call for though there be that

2430
02:25:19,000 --> 02:25:22,500
are called God's whether in
heaven and earth or in earth as

2431
02:25:22,500 --> 02:25:24,500
there be God's many and Lords
many.

2432
02:25:24,500 --> 02:25:27,600
But to us, there's one God, the
father of whom are all things

2433
02:25:27,600 --> 02:25:30,900
and we in him and one Lord Jesus
Christ by whom are all things

2434
02:25:30,900 --> 02:25:33,500
and we by him.
So what's significant here is he

2435
02:25:33,500 --> 02:25:37,100
says there are those are called
God's whether in heaven or on

2436
02:25:37,100 --> 02:25:40,200
Earth, would a false god be in
heaven.

2437
02:25:40,200 --> 02:25:42,000
And I would say no, there that
is.

2438
02:25:42,200 --> 02:25:46,200
They're in heaven.
They have to be a true God and,

2439
02:25:47,200 --> 02:25:49,700
you know, the false gods would
be the ones on Earth.

2440
02:25:49,700 --> 02:25:52,500
And he says, indeed, there are
God's many and Lords.

2441
02:25:52,500 --> 02:25:55,800
Many's what is, is its
translated, awkwardly in the

2442
02:25:55,800 --> 02:25:58,000
King James, but that's what's
put in parentheses.

2443
02:25:58,000 --> 02:26:01,400
Right there is after saying, you
know, but to us, there is one

2444
02:26:01,400 --> 02:26:03,900
God and one Lord.
So it's this idea of there are

2445
02:26:04,300 --> 02:26:09,100
many gods, but that to us there
is, you know, one God that we

2446
02:26:09,100 --> 02:26:11,800
worship, who is our father and
creator.

2447
02:26:12,100 --> 02:26:15,900
Until the early Christians.
Interestingly, an ancient Jews

2448
02:26:15,900 --> 02:26:18,900
did have a polytheism in a sense
that they believe that there are

2449
02:26:18,908 --> 02:26:23,300
many Divine beings that were
God's underneath God, the father

2450
02:26:23,600 --> 02:26:27,700
and their statements like origin
and Clement of Alexandria and

2451
02:26:27,700 --> 02:26:29,800
Justin Martyr.
Oh there's a lot of different

2452
02:26:29,800 --> 02:26:33,200
early Christian quotes on this.
I'm just for sake of time.

2453
02:26:33,200 --> 02:26:37,200
I'm just going to read one.
We're redoing the Divine Council

2454
02:26:37,200 --> 02:26:38,600
right?
Yeah.

2455
02:26:38,600 --> 02:26:43,700
Divine Council he says There are
some gods of whom God is God, as

2456
02:26:43,700 --> 02:26:47,300
we hear in Prophecy.
Quote, Psalm 136 to thank.

2457
02:26:47,300 --> 02:26:53,000
He the god of gods and Psalm 51,
the god of gods have spoken and

2458
02:26:53,000 --> 02:26:54,600
called the earth.
Now, God, according to the

2459
02:26:54,608 --> 02:26:57,800
gospel, is not the god of the
dead, but of the living, those

2460
02:26:57,800 --> 02:27:01,400
Gods then are living in whom God
is God, the Apostle Paul to

2461
02:27:01,400 --> 02:27:04,400
writing to the Corinthians says,
there are God's many and Lords.

2462
02:27:04,400 --> 02:27:06,600
Many.
And so, we have spoken of these

2463
02:27:06,600 --> 02:27:11,200
Gods as really existing.
And so, in Orange.

2464
02:27:11,300 --> 02:27:15,600
InStyle clogged with hurt her at
Clyde's, which was an early

2465
02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:18,700
Christian dialogue.
That was before the whole church

2466
02:27:18,700 --> 02:27:21,300
of Alexandria they discussed.
He was saying that there was

2467
02:27:21,300 --> 02:27:24,400
starting to be some controversy
over the godhead and how to

2468
02:27:24,400 --> 02:27:28,800
interpret their being one God.
But then we have both the father

2469
02:27:28,800 --> 02:27:30,700
and the son is two distinct
beings.

2470
02:27:31,000 --> 02:27:35,100
And so he agreed with her
Clyde's, the bishop in origin

2471
02:27:35,100 --> 02:27:37,300
goes from just being distinct
from the Father.

2472
02:27:37,300 --> 02:27:40,500
The Son is himself.
Also God, her Clyde said he is

2473
02:27:40,500 --> 02:27:43,400
himself.
Also, God origin says in these

2474
02:27:43,400 --> 02:27:46,300
two Gods becoming Unity parrot.
Clyde said yes.

2475
02:27:46,300 --> 02:27:49,500
Origin says, we profess to God's
heraklion says yes.

2476
02:27:49,500 --> 02:27:52,400
But the power is one origin goes
but since our brothers are

2477
02:27:52,400 --> 02:27:54,800
shocked at the statement, there
are two Gods, we must treat this

2478
02:27:54,800 --> 02:27:57,500
matter, carefully and point out
in what respect there too.

2479
02:27:57,600 --> 02:27:59,700
And in what respect these, two
are one God.

2480
02:27:59,900 --> 02:28:03,100
Now the holy scriptures of time
many instances to being one and

2481
02:28:03,100 --> 02:28:04,600
not just two.
But in some cases they have

2482
02:28:04,600 --> 02:28:07,600
taught us that more than two and
even a great number one.

2483
02:28:07,600 --> 02:28:10,700
He goes on to give some
scriptural evidences of like the

2484
02:28:10,700 --> 02:28:14,600
man and his A wife are one flesh
and he goes on a quotes, like,

2485
02:28:14,600 --> 02:28:19,500
John 17 about the, the union of
Jesus, and the father, and the

2486
02:28:19,500 --> 02:28:22,500
disciples.
And so, then he goes on what

2487
02:28:22,500 --> 02:28:24,600
then is the meaning of such
sacred texts.

2488
02:28:24,600 --> 02:28:28,300
As before me, no other God was
formed, nor shall there be any

2489
02:28:28,300 --> 02:28:31,300
after he and the text.
I even, I am he and there is no

2490
02:28:31,300 --> 02:28:34,300
God beside me.
And these texts one is not to

2491
02:28:34,300 --> 02:28:36,800
think that the unity refers to
the god of the universe has

2492
02:28:36,800 --> 02:28:40,400
Purity apart from Christ nor
that refers to Christ apart from

2493
02:28:40,400 --> 02:28:41,900
God.
But will he say, The stress is

2494
02:28:41,900 --> 02:28:44,900
Jesus, expresses that the father
and I are one.

2495
02:28:45,200 --> 02:28:48,000
So, the idea is that the gods
and the kingdom of heaven are

2496
02:28:48,000 --> 02:28:55,000
perfectly United and it's their
United as one God and they, this

2497
02:28:55,000 --> 02:28:58,100
gets into, you know, some deeper
Mormon doctrine, of divine

2498
02:28:58,100 --> 02:29:01,700
investiture, where the gods are
so perfectly United, that they

2499
02:29:01,700 --> 02:29:05,400
share the glory, they share the
credit for everything that they

2500
02:29:05,400 --> 02:29:08,800
do, and they can act in the
stead of each other.

2501
02:29:09,000 --> 02:29:11,500
So, I hope that kind of answers
the Ian.

2502
02:29:13,300 --> 02:29:14,600
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.

2503
02:29:16,500 --> 02:29:19,200
Can I take that further?
You can see you can see what

2504
02:29:19,200 --> 02:29:21,400
Jacobs talking about there in
John 17.

2505
02:29:21,400 --> 02:29:24,500
Even, you know, Christ is
praying to the father, you know,

2506
02:29:24,500 --> 02:29:26,900
the great high priest,
intercessory prayer, their knees

2507
02:29:26,900 --> 02:29:28,600
praying that his brother and
might be one.

2508
02:29:29,200 --> 02:29:31,000
Not literally.
I see his little, you know,

2509
02:29:31,500 --> 02:29:35,700
yeah, the Mormons had fun with
this scripture a lot, but Christ

2510
02:29:35,700 --> 02:29:38,500
is a clearly praying that the
disciples will be one.

2511
02:29:39,600 --> 02:29:43,500
In purpose as the Christ was one
in purpose to Father.

2512
02:29:43,500 --> 02:29:45,900
Otherwise, if you interpreted
Christ in one was called,

2513
02:29:45,900 --> 02:29:48,900
literally, then to Christ to be
praying that the disciples would

2514
02:29:48,900 --> 02:29:51,400
literally become one in body
with God.

2515
02:29:51,500 --> 02:29:53,100
That would make a pretty big
God.

2516
02:29:53,300 --> 02:29:59,400
Yes, it's just talked about, but
you see this since insincerity,

2517
02:29:59,400 --> 02:30:03,800
this prayer that the apostles
become United and see you see,

2518
02:30:04,100 --> 02:30:06,500
this is what I say.
What I see in this is that you

2519
02:30:06,500 --> 02:30:08,900
is this Evolution from
priesthood to godhood.

2520
02:30:09,400 --> 02:30:15,000
Usually a body of precedent to
God there and I'll tackle this

2521
02:30:15,000 --> 02:30:18,300
scripture in Isaiah to from the
New Testament perspective.

2522
02:30:18,300 --> 02:30:22,100
You know, in Philippians 2 says
let this mind be in you which

2523
02:30:22,100 --> 02:30:24,700
was also in Christ.
Jesus who being in the form of

2524
02:30:24,700 --> 02:30:27,800
God, thought it not robbery to
be equal with God.

2525
02:30:28,100 --> 02:30:32,000
And Jesus says, in John 10, I
and my father are one.

2526
02:30:32,200 --> 02:30:34,900
And I would say that me and
Joseph Smith taught that that

2527
02:30:34,900 --> 02:30:37,800
means that they are agreed, you
know.

2528
02:30:38,200 --> 02:30:41,400
So that Jesus says, I am my
father are one and then the Jews

2529
02:30:41,400 --> 02:30:44,100
took up stones again to Stone
him and Jesus answered them.

2530
02:30:44,200 --> 02:30:47,300
Many good works have.
I shown you from the father for

2531
02:30:47,300 --> 02:30:50,000
which of those Works.
Do you Stone me the Jews?

2532
02:30:50,000 --> 02:30:54,000
Answered him saying for a good
work, we Stone thee, not but for

2533
02:30:54,000 --> 02:30:59,100
blasphemy and because that thou
being a man makest himself God

2534
02:30:59,300 --> 02:31:02,400
and Jesus answered them, is it
not written in your law?

2535
02:31:03,200 --> 02:31:07,300
I said that your Gods.
If he called them Gods unto whom

2536
02:31:07,300 --> 02:31:11,500
the word of God came and the
scripture Cannot be broken and

2537
02:31:11,500 --> 02:31:13,700
solves 82, which he's quoting
from.

2538
02:31:14,100 --> 02:31:17,700
He says that God, says stands in
the congregation amongst the

2539
02:31:17,700 --> 02:31:22,100
gods and judges amongst the
gods, ER, Chile are the children

2540
02:31:22,500 --> 02:31:25,500
of the most high you know or the
most high God.

2541
02:31:25,700 --> 02:31:30,400
So you see this plurality of
gods or this this idea that you

2542
02:31:30,400 --> 02:31:32,800
can inherit that position I
think in the teachings of

2543
02:31:32,800 --> 02:31:38,800
Christ, very specifically.
Yeah, it's fascinating just one.

2544
02:31:39,300 --> 02:31:43,200
Just a thought on the doctrine
that saltation or the osis as

2545
02:31:43,200 --> 02:31:48,400
it's called in the you know
Christian tradition is when I've

2546
02:31:48,400 --> 02:31:50,900
been studying it there's a lot
of different quotes on it from

2547
02:31:50,900 --> 02:31:54,200
the early fathers and you know
there's actually different

2548
02:31:54,200 --> 02:32:00,100
opinions on it and but you know
I thought you're a gnaeus was

2549
02:32:00,100 --> 02:32:03,800
the most explicit where he said
that God is able to bridge.

2550
02:32:03,800 --> 02:32:07,900
The gap between us as the
creation and him as the Creator

2551
02:32:07,900 --> 02:32:11,500
that you know through The
through Christ that he is able

2552
02:32:11,500 --> 02:32:17,300
to make us for take completely
of the nature of what he is.

2553
02:32:17,300 --> 02:32:19,100
And there are different
Christians at different ideas.

2554
02:32:19,100 --> 02:32:22,500
On that Clement of Alexandria
didn't think that we could fully

2555
02:32:22,800 --> 02:32:25,600
become at exactly as God.
The father.

2556
02:32:25,700 --> 02:32:29,000
He thought that we could become
as far as possible but irenaeus

2557
02:32:29,000 --> 02:32:32,600
and reading him he was like very
explicit that he's going to make

2558
02:32:32,600 --> 02:32:36,800
us be absolutely everything.
He is in his nature and you know

2559
02:32:36,800 --> 02:32:39,100
that God became man, slut men
can become.

2560
02:32:39,200 --> 02:32:42,200
God's is, you know, one of many
different quotes on that

2561
02:32:42,200 --> 02:32:47,400
subject, their quote, from
Lorenzo Snow as well.

2562
02:32:49,500 --> 02:32:57,600
So, one of the questions I have
is, did we know our father Adam

2563
02:32:57,600 --> 02:33:00,600
in heaven?
Like the, we knew him as a

2564
02:33:00,600 --> 02:33:03,700
resurrected being, right?
And we were spiritual drain and

2565
02:33:03,700 --> 02:33:06,100
to get our bodies, we came here
that way you got to leave.

2566
02:33:08,800 --> 02:33:11,500
That's what I believe.
I won't think somebody else, but

2567
02:33:11,500 --> 02:33:15,200
that's yeah, that's absolutely
what I believe, but sounds like

2568
02:33:15,200 --> 02:33:17,200
the right idea to me.
Okay.

2569
02:33:17,600 --> 02:33:20,400
All right.
So, how would you guys Define

2570
02:33:20,400 --> 02:33:25,900
sin?
I would think a willful

2571
02:33:25,900 --> 02:33:30,700
deliberate act against God, the
father.

2572
02:33:31,100 --> 02:33:32,700
Now, can I ask you a quick
question?

2573
02:33:32,700 --> 02:33:35,700
Is this in regards to your
question of did Adam sinned?

2574
02:33:36,700 --> 02:33:41,300
Okay, so let me, let me ask you
a couple questions here so I

2575
02:33:41,308 --> 02:33:43,400
think this will help.
Okay.

2576
02:33:45,200 --> 02:33:49,400
What two Commandments were given
to Adam and Eve in the garden.

2577
02:33:50,500 --> 02:33:53,000
First one would be be fruitful
and multiply.

2578
02:33:53,600 --> 02:33:58,400
Okay, what was the second one?
Do not eat of the tree of

2579
02:33:58,400 --> 02:34:00,900
knowledge with evil.
Okay.

2580
02:34:01,900 --> 02:34:05,200
Is there any record to Adam and
Eve had children in the garden?

2581
02:34:05,800 --> 02:34:14,200
Now when do children begin to
come forth from Adam and Eve You

2582
02:34:14,200 --> 02:34:17,900
see that after they after the
attack a caption, right?

2583
02:34:18,100 --> 02:34:22,200
Yeah.
So I don't think Adam sinned.

2584
02:34:22,400 --> 02:34:27,800
I think he was given a
commandment to Commandments but

2585
02:34:27,800 --> 02:34:31,700
they could not be filled
simultaneously gentlemen,

2586
02:34:31,700 --> 02:34:35,500
Michael Jacob.
Does that seem out of whack with

2587
02:34:35,500 --> 02:34:40,000
either of you?
Nope, doesn't seem now.

2588
02:34:40,000 --> 02:34:46,600
Walk with me, I would Define sin
is transgression of law, is the

2589
02:34:46,600 --> 02:34:50,400
way I and it specifically.
We like to think of moral law

2590
02:34:50,400 --> 02:34:56,000
the laws that God has instituted
or he discovered that our for

2591
02:34:56,000 --> 02:35:02,500
our well-being and benefit.
And, and I like what Ogden cop

2592
02:35:02,500 --> 02:35:07,100
went, where he saw the
transgression of Adam and Eve in

2593
02:35:07,100 --> 02:35:11,500
particular, Fruit was a
transgression of a law of nature

2594
02:35:11,500 --> 02:35:16,700
not a moral law that it was
Trenton was it was a lot.

2595
02:35:16,700 --> 02:35:20,500
Breaking a law of nature by
following from Immortal

2596
02:35:20,500 --> 02:35:23,000
Celestial states, to following
into.

2597
02:35:23,000 --> 02:35:28,300
Mortality, is kind of what is
what, Ogden Kraut, it's how he

2598
02:35:28,300 --> 02:35:30,900
explained it.
So, there's a difference

2599
02:35:30,900 --> 02:35:34,400
between, you know, willfully
breaking, moral commandment

2600
02:35:34,400 --> 02:35:38,100
versus, you know what?
What happened to the Garden of

2601
02:35:38,100 --> 02:35:41,800
Eden was anything like willful
Rebellion against God?

2602
02:35:41,900 --> 02:35:46,200
It was you know, Eve was tricked
and Adam said, well she's going.

2603
02:35:46,200 --> 02:35:53,100
I have to go to, right?
Okay, so let me so Eve was

2604
02:35:53,100 --> 02:35:57,500
tricked.
But didn't they know the plan?

2605
02:35:57,500 --> 02:36:01,400
Like they knew the plan that
they were coming to do was to

2606
02:36:03,400 --> 02:36:07,000
create the human race.
And so did she have some

2607
02:36:07,000 --> 02:36:11,400
knowledge of what would happen?
Like, how do you fit the the

2608
02:36:11,400 --> 02:36:13,500
that whole narratives between
the serpent in the eaves?

2609
02:36:14,200 --> 02:36:17,200
So I think she definitely did
have a some you know she had a

2610
02:36:17,200 --> 02:36:21,600
degree of knowledge and say and
did it ever will he didn't?

2611
02:36:21,600 --> 02:36:25,000
He presented half-truths, he
would say you won't die was just

2612
02:36:25,800 --> 02:36:29,700
But he told her but, you know,
obviously cheaper took of it and

2613
02:36:29,700 --> 02:36:33,500
God Said, Yes, actually, you are
going to die, I don't know.

2614
02:36:33,500 --> 02:36:35,200
Michael, you have any other
thoughts on that?

2615
02:36:36,700 --> 02:36:40,100
But I decided some quotes,
especially for a, the allotted a

2616
02:36:40,100 --> 02:36:43,900
state body on the scene from
Joseph Fielding Smith, he

2617
02:36:43,900 --> 02:36:47,100
related in a and Institute
class.

2618
02:36:47,900 --> 02:36:51,800
He said, why did Adam come here
not subject to death when when

2619
02:36:51,800 --> 02:36:54,500
he was placed on the earth,
there had to come A change in

2620
02:36:54,500 --> 02:36:57,300
his body through the / taking of
this element whatever you want

2621
02:36:57,300 --> 02:37:01,000
to call it fruit that brought
blood into his body and that

2622
02:37:01,000 --> 02:37:04,100
blood became the wife of the
body, instead of the spirit, and

2623
02:37:04,100 --> 02:37:06,300
the blood has in it, the seeds
of death.

2624
02:37:06,700 --> 02:37:11,400
Some moral element mortality was
created through eating of the

2625
02:37:11,408 --> 02:37:14,800
forbidden fruit, if you want to
call it forbidden, but I think

2626
02:37:14,800 --> 02:37:17,000
that the Lord made it clear that
it was not forbidden.

2627
02:37:17,200 --> 02:37:19,500
He merely said to Adam, if you
want to stay here in this

2628
02:37:19,500 --> 02:37:23,400
situation, you know, if so don't
eat it.

2629
02:37:24,100 --> 02:37:28,900
And he also said, you know,
answers to gospel questions,

2630
02:37:29,000 --> 02:37:30,700
Adam.
And Eve did not come here in a

2631
02:37:30,708 --> 02:37:33,900
moral State.
They had to come in the manner

2632
02:37:33,900 --> 02:37:36,700
in which they did and then
transgress the law.

2633
02:37:36,800 --> 02:37:39,200
So again, like you're saying
Jacob it's a, it's a

2634
02:37:39,200 --> 02:37:43,800
transgression of a law and not
necessarily a moral sin.

2635
02:37:44,200 --> 02:37:47,400
And he goes on to say the Trap
that transgression of that law,

2636
02:37:47,600 --> 02:37:51,300
contrary to the view of many was
not a sin, it was not a sin

2637
02:37:51,300 --> 02:37:54,800
anymore than the transgression
in the laboratory by a chemist

2638
02:37:54,900 --> 02:37:57,500
in combining two.
Distances and creating another

2639
02:37:57,500 --> 02:37:59,300
entirely different from the
first.

2640
02:37:59,500 --> 02:38:02,500
It was not a sin to buy a to
bring to pass mortality.

2641
02:38:02,800 --> 02:38:06,300
A condition which was essential
to the Eternal welfare of man

2642
02:38:07,000 --> 02:38:10,000
the fall change, the nature of
Adam and Eve to fit them for the

2643
02:38:10,000 --> 02:38:14,700
condition in which we are.
Now in this, I view my view that

2644
02:38:14,900 --> 02:38:18,800
story with that, in mind, that
there was a transgression of

2645
02:38:18,800 --> 02:38:22,300
physical law that changed the
chemical substance allowed them,

2646
02:38:22,500 --> 02:38:25,300
which allowed them to bring us
forth, and our situation.

2647
02:38:26,500 --> 02:38:29,400
So we can be tested and tried to
get the bodies.

2648
02:38:29,600 --> 02:38:33,500
Yeah, live the gospel, it's
still definitely, don't view

2649
02:38:33,500 --> 02:38:39,500
that Adam sinned.
So your least reading the book

2650
02:38:39,500 --> 02:38:44,100
of Nephi, it almost seems to
frame what happened there.

2651
02:38:44,100 --> 02:38:48,300
As a good thing that almost to
have knowledge of Good and Evil

2652
02:38:48,300 --> 02:38:50,800
gives you free will and so
therefore then you can go.

2653
02:38:50,800 --> 02:38:54,500
And actually please God forget
the actual Passage.

2654
02:38:56,100 --> 02:39:01,300
Called the Felix culpa.
It might be marching fall.

2655
02:39:02,000 --> 02:39:06,600
Yeah, so that's something that's
had and Christian tradition to

2656
02:39:06,600 --> 02:39:09,100
differing degrees.
But the Book of Mormon

2657
02:39:09,100 --> 02:39:13,300
definitely canonize has that as
being a scriptural Doctrine.

2658
02:39:13,300 --> 02:39:15,600
Right?
And second, he fi chapter 2.

2659
02:39:16,500 --> 02:39:17,600
Yeah.
Yep.

2660
02:39:18,300 --> 02:39:21,100
And so it is, is the fall a bad
thing?

2661
02:39:21,300 --> 02:39:23,400
It's almost like you get this
duel notion.

2662
02:39:23,400 --> 02:39:25,300
It's like, well they sin.
They brought death into the

2663
02:39:25,300 --> 02:39:27,800
world but it's a good thing but
they transgress.

2664
02:39:27,800 --> 02:39:32,000
So That's where my, that's where
I struggle with this.

2665
02:39:32,900 --> 02:39:35,400
I think it's absolutely a good
thing, right?

2666
02:39:35,400 --> 02:39:39,500
I mean we call it the fall but
it's absolutely a good thing and

2667
02:39:39,500 --> 02:39:45,500
it's necessary without it we
don't have us, right?

2668
02:39:45,500 --> 02:39:50,000
We're not here doing this
because Adam and Eve were in a

2669
02:39:51,700 --> 02:39:55,500
state of being which, you know,
they weren't having physical

2670
02:39:55,500 --> 02:39:59,900
children and the only way for
them to have Children was to

2671
02:39:59,900 --> 02:40:04,200
partake of that fruit or those
Elements, which then allowed

2672
02:40:04,200 --> 02:40:09,000
them to, to have children and to
begin to populate the race.

2673
02:40:09,000 --> 02:40:14,300
It allowed us to have agency
allows us to, as you said.

2674
02:40:14,300 --> 02:40:15,700
And I think it was an eloquent
way.

2675
02:40:15,700 --> 02:40:19,800
You put it Billy to please, God
to choose to please God.

2676
02:40:19,900 --> 02:40:24,700
So yeah, I think it was
absolutely a good thing.

2677
02:40:25,800 --> 02:40:27,400
Michael.
Jacob you have anything to add

2678
02:40:27,400 --> 02:40:32,200
to that I would shortly.
I just it's in my estimation

2679
02:40:32,200 --> 02:40:35,900
second e Phi chapter 2 is the
greatest treatment philosophical

2680
02:40:36,100 --> 02:40:38,500
philosophically on why there's
evil.

2681
02:40:38,500 --> 02:40:42,000
Why there's good while you need
to opposition all things that's

2682
02:40:42,000 --> 02:40:44,300
actually what converted me to
Mormonism.

2683
02:40:44,700 --> 02:40:47,400
I was raised in the church,
that's what I read that.

2684
02:40:47,400 --> 02:40:48,700
What about being about, 19 years
old.

2685
02:40:48,700 --> 02:40:52,300
Like that's the first time.
I remember being really fully

2686
02:40:52,300 --> 02:40:54,700
converted in my adult life was
reading.

2687
02:40:54,700 --> 02:40:59,700
Second if I you're too and it
was so profound to me that It

2688
02:40:59,700 --> 02:41:02,500
solves the problem of evil
philosophically Christianity.

2689
02:41:02,700 --> 02:41:04,700
Because Christianity has to deal
with that, right?

2690
02:41:04,700 --> 02:41:09,800
I did God create Lucifer them as
God is God, accountable and

2691
02:41:09,800 --> 02:41:13,500
responsible for for introducing
evil you can't adjust and true

2692
02:41:13,500 --> 02:41:17,000
and got a good god actually
introduced evil into the world,

2693
02:41:17,300 --> 02:41:20,100
Mormonism solves that
philosophically by saying these

2694
02:41:20,200 --> 02:41:23,100
these two things, the
oppositional things.

2695
02:41:23,100 --> 02:41:26,900
It's always been that way it's
and it's necessary.

2696
02:41:27,200 --> 02:41:29,200
Otherwise there could be no
existence.

2697
02:41:29,500 --> 02:41:31,700
The entire other, the two
pillars of Eternity.

2698
02:41:32,100 --> 02:41:35,400
Yeah, that all of creation
stands on and you can't do

2699
02:41:35,400 --> 02:41:38,300
without it.
And so absolves God of the and

2700
02:41:38,300 --> 02:41:41,800
us, you know, not it doesn't
absolve us but it gives us the

2701
02:41:41,800 --> 02:41:45,200
knowledge and it tells us how
important knowledge has because

2702
02:41:45,200 --> 02:41:48,200
you can't, can you truly have
agency without knowledge is what

2703
02:41:48,200 --> 02:41:51,400
I would ask, you know?
So that's my thoughts.

2704
02:41:52,400 --> 02:42:00,000
Yeah, this may be bleeds into
the next question of A big

2705
02:42:00,000 --> 02:42:05,400
Doctrine within Christianity.
Is the sin nature, original sin.

2706
02:42:05,400 --> 02:42:09,600
So, do you guys believe that we
have original sin, does it

2707
02:42:09,600 --> 02:42:13,600
affect, or will in any way
thinking of Luther's, bondage of

2708
02:42:13,600 --> 02:42:19,800
the will, if you ever read it
how to send actually affect

2709
02:42:20,800 --> 02:42:26,300
Generations after Adam.
So, I definitely disagree with a

2710
02:42:26,600 --> 02:42:29,100
what I considered, you know,
what's gonna explain What

2711
02:42:29,100 --> 02:42:32,200
original sin is is that we
inherit the sin of Adam, I

2712
02:42:32,208 --> 02:42:34,500
definitely don't believe.
Well, first off, I don't believe

2713
02:42:34,500 --> 02:42:39,500
it that there was a moral sin
there, but the scriptures in the

2714
02:42:39,500 --> 02:42:42,400
pearl of great price, you know?
It lays out some really

2715
02:42:42,400 --> 02:42:44,400
interesting things about how
kind of the things go.

2716
02:42:44,400 --> 02:42:47,400
You know, how things kind of
went after the fall.

2717
02:42:48,700 --> 02:42:51,900
One thing it kind of delineates
is that, you know, Adam was

2718
02:42:51,900 --> 02:42:55,600
instructed on how to teach his
children, the gospel and as he's

2719
02:42:55,600 --> 02:42:59,100
presenting the gospel and
pointing their minds to towards

2720
02:42:59,100 --> 02:43:02,300
the Savior, Satan comes among
the children and says, believe

2721
02:43:02,300 --> 02:43:05,600
it or not, and they believe did
not write it like this.

2722
02:43:05,600 --> 02:43:08,900
This Angel masquerading as an
angel of light masquerading as

2723
02:43:08,900 --> 02:43:12,000
the angel of the Lord tells
Adams posterity not to believe.

2724
02:43:12,800 --> 02:43:16,200
And it also, you know, Enoch is
giving a speech in the pearl of

2725
02:43:16,200 --> 02:43:18,100
great price.
And he says, as we are born into

2726
02:43:18,100 --> 02:43:22,000
this world, sin begins to
conceive in our hearts and a

2727
02:43:22,000 --> 02:43:27,400
gross, right?
And so it's There is something

2728
02:43:27,400 --> 02:43:31,300
about being in this Fallen Earth
where were that?

2729
02:43:32,100 --> 02:43:34,600
The scriptures is a sin
conceives in our hearts.

2730
02:43:35,100 --> 02:43:38,300
But then I would say it's our
choice, whether we nourish that

2731
02:43:38,300 --> 02:43:42,000
or not or if we prune it and
pointed Point our hearts towards

2732
02:43:42,400 --> 02:43:46,300
God and Christ instead, you
know, and the way that the

2733
02:43:46,300 --> 02:43:52,000
gospel was revealed do you have
essentially accountability on

2734
02:43:52,000 --> 02:43:57,000
each bus but I do believe that
intrinsically most Are probably

2735
02:43:57,000 --> 02:44:01,300
good enough depraved but do you
the devil does exist.

2736
02:44:02,100 --> 02:44:07,300
You mind if I read Romans 5,
this is kind of like the go-to

2737
02:44:07,300 --> 02:44:11,600
passage Romans 5:12.
Therefore just as Sin came into

2738
02:44:11,600 --> 02:44:14,500
the world through one man and
death through sin, so death

2739
02:44:14,500 --> 02:44:17,800
spread to all men because all
had sinned for sin.

2740
02:44:17,800 --> 02:44:20,600
Indeed was in the world before
the law was given.

2741
02:44:20,800 --> 02:44:23,200
But sin is not counted.
Where there is no law.

2742
02:44:23,300 --> 02:44:25,400
It death reigned from Adam to
Moses.

2743
02:44:25,500 --> 02:44:29,800
Even those who sitting was not
like the transgression of Adam,

2744
02:44:30,000 --> 02:44:36,500
who is a type of the one to
come. and so that, that is just

2745
02:44:37,900 --> 02:44:40,800
From my perspective, used to
illustrate that.

2746
02:44:42,300 --> 02:44:46,500
We all sin, we all fall short,
but sin is actually this thing

2747
02:44:46,500 --> 02:44:51,000
that brings forth death to
Future generations.

2748
02:44:51,800 --> 02:44:55,200
And so I guess you guys said
that partaking of the fruit is

2749
02:44:55,400 --> 02:44:59,100
the partaking of humanity in a
way of him becoming more human.

2750
02:44:59,100 --> 02:45:00,500
Is that how would you understand
Sim?

2751
02:45:01,500 --> 02:45:03,700
Well, I wouldn't say that he
needed to become more human than

2752
02:45:03,700 --> 02:45:07,100
he already was.
But in order for us to come down

2753
02:45:07,100 --> 02:45:10,800
and become more human.
Yes, and so in a way it's in

2754
02:45:10,800 --> 02:45:13,600
does become.
Through that door.

2755
02:45:13,600 --> 02:45:16,400
It does, it did come through
Adam but not because he's

2756
02:45:16,400 --> 02:45:21,200
sinned, but the opportunity was
presented for us to to have our

2757
02:45:21,200 --> 02:45:23,900
own since, that's how I.
Yeah, I actually have, I

2758
02:45:23,900 --> 02:45:26,600
wondered about Romans 5 there
and I think it's actually pretty

2759
02:45:26,600 --> 02:45:31,300
weak for arguing that, you know,
that sin is imputed upon

2760
02:45:31,300 --> 02:45:36,500
everyone, but I read it, you
know, very much just a you know,

2761
02:45:36,700 --> 02:45:40,700
through what Adam did the
opportunity for sin is there for

2762
02:45:40,700 --> 02:45:46,200
us and we We do damn ourselves
and cut ourselves off from Life.

2763
02:45:46,600 --> 02:45:48,900
Yo, life Everlasting.
If we do sin, and we don't

2764
02:45:48,900 --> 02:45:50,500
repent, and we don't obey the
gospel.

2765
02:45:51,500 --> 02:45:58,900
Yeah, I would say from Romans 5,
is we inherit the effects of the

2766
02:45:58,900 --> 02:46:01,900
transgression, the Garden of
Eden, and everyone inherits

2767
02:46:01,900 --> 02:46:06,600
those effects, you know?
But we don't inherit the blame

2768
02:46:06,600 --> 02:46:09,500
for that.
We inherit a sinful nature

2769
02:46:09,700 --> 02:46:14,400
through, you know, which is we
have a On nature that's prone to

2770
02:46:14,400 --> 02:46:17,500
to be sinful.
But you know we are accountable

2771
02:46:17,500 --> 02:46:20,700
for our own sins.
I see that from understand that

2772
02:46:20,700 --> 02:46:23,900
both the Eastern Orthodox, as
well as the early Christians

2773
02:46:23,900 --> 02:46:28,400
were big on, WE inheriting the
effects of the original sin, but

2774
02:46:28,400 --> 02:46:32,100
not necessarily the blame.
And so the early Christians

2775
02:46:32,100 --> 02:46:36,700
believed like children for
example, if a child dies they're

2776
02:46:36,700 --> 02:46:39,600
innocent and they're going to go
to heaven is something that I

2777
02:46:39,600 --> 02:46:43,600
see very clear from the Early
Christians up until I think

2778
02:46:44,100 --> 02:46:47,800
Augustine has different ideas.
If I understand right?

2779
02:46:47,800 --> 02:46:52,400
I haven't studied his writings
but That's just kind of my

2780
02:46:52,400 --> 02:46:56,800
thoughts on it.
Well, I like that and it goes

2781
02:46:56,800 --> 02:46:59,000
back to that article of faith,
you know, that we believed we

2782
02:46:59,000 --> 02:47:00,800
were accountable for our own
sins and not Adam's

2783
02:47:00,800 --> 02:47:04,200
transgression and so it kind of
just kind of claws.

2784
02:47:04,200 --> 02:47:07,900
They're almost Preparatory for
the atom, God doctrine that I

2785
02:47:07,900 --> 02:47:11,000
like a lot there, you know, is
this is a transgression but

2786
02:47:11,000 --> 02:47:13,300
we're accountable for our own
sins, right?

2787
02:47:13,500 --> 02:47:15,400
And a weird was that
differently?

2788
02:47:15,400 --> 02:47:19,900
And I like that.
Yeah, I did you say I think

2789
02:47:20,500 --> 02:47:23,500
Right on the head.
So I think you guys are spot-on.

2790
02:47:24,000 --> 02:47:25,600
Only thing I can say to that is.
Amen.

2791
02:47:27,500 --> 02:47:31,500
So if Adam brought death into
the world, does he need to be

2792
02:47:31,500 --> 02:47:35,500
Redeemed by the cross with that?
I don't.

2793
02:47:35,600 --> 02:47:40,700
I think that his transgression
wasn't so there are different

2794
02:47:40,700 --> 02:47:43,500
fundamentalist takes on that.
I've heard some fundamentalist

2795
02:47:43,500 --> 02:47:48,300
think that yes Adam needed
Christ to his father needed

2796
02:47:48,300 --> 02:47:51,500
Redemption from his own son.
Is what I think that's a

2797
02:47:51,508 --> 02:47:53,700
minority view.
I personally don't hold to the I

2798
02:47:53,708 --> 02:47:59,300
think that Adam was act and you
know and that he is Brigham

2799
02:47:59,300 --> 02:48:01,400
Young taught.
He said he didn't think the atom

2800
02:48:01,400 --> 02:48:04,500
actually died.
He thought that Adam would just

2801
02:48:04,500 --> 02:48:09,100
return to the spirit world from
whence he came and, you know, in

2802
02:48:09,100 --> 02:48:12,300
the Bible it says Adam died.
And similarly says that Moses

2803
02:48:12,300 --> 02:48:15,700
died.
You can you can.

2804
02:48:15,900 --> 02:48:18,300
There's different ways that
Mormons would explain that, for

2805
02:48:18,300 --> 02:48:23,500
example, with, with Moses, in
the Book of Mormon actually says

2806
02:48:23,500 --> 02:48:25,900
that they have a tradition that
Moses was actually.

2807
02:48:26,100 --> 02:48:29,700
Insulated and didn't actually
lay his body down in the dust.

2808
02:48:30,900 --> 02:48:34,800
And so there's this idea and
Mormonism that you know the

2809
02:48:34,800 --> 02:48:37,500
scriptures are always translated
correctly and possibly both

2810
02:48:37,500 --> 02:48:41,400
Moses and Adam did actually lay
their bodies down in the dust.

2811
02:48:41,400 --> 02:48:46,100
But went back to, you know,
we're translated and Moses is

2812
02:48:46,100 --> 02:48:50,600
case to go into a terrestrial
world or in Adams case to return

2813
02:48:50,600 --> 02:48:56,100
to the celestial world where he
came is, my kind of view, Yeah,

2814
02:48:56,200 --> 02:49:00,600
I completely do is Jacob.
I either see it as being a type

2815
02:49:00,800 --> 02:49:02,900
in a sense.
For Christ laid his body down

2816
02:49:02,900 --> 02:49:08,100
for three days if he was to die.
According to old age after

2817
02:49:08,100 --> 02:49:11,700
having retain his mortality,
that he would have been

2818
02:49:11,800 --> 02:49:13,900
transfigured back to a Celestial
glory.

2819
02:49:13,900 --> 02:49:19,600
After a certain amount of time
that his body did not Decay or

2820
02:49:19,600 --> 02:49:21,900
that he particular.
The fruit of the tree of life

2821
02:49:23,400 --> 02:49:26,700
and was granted access That
which would Purge out the blood

2822
02:49:26,700 --> 02:49:31,300
and bring spiritual fluids back
into his body to give that give

2823
02:49:31,300 --> 02:49:34,100
him the action of Life, by
spirits of my blood.

2824
02:49:35,000 --> 02:49:40,600
It's kind of my take on that.
Yeah, I agree with both of you

2825
02:49:40,608 --> 02:49:43,300
guys on that, I think that's,
that's spot-on.

2826
02:49:44,500 --> 02:49:48,000
All right.
Well, Pretty much made it

2827
02:49:48,000 --> 02:49:54,100
through all my questions.
And I mean, I could just end on

2828
02:49:55,000 --> 02:50:01,700
maybe some Personal things and
maybe some things that I wrestle

2829
02:50:01,700 --> 02:50:04,500
with.
As I view your tradition and

2830
02:50:04,500 --> 02:50:09,500
Faith, but maybe do you guys,
obviously you all believe in

2831
02:50:09,800 --> 02:50:14,900
polygamy, how does your wives
feel about?

2832
02:50:14,900 --> 02:50:18,600
That's a big thing like how
would your wives feel about that

2833
02:50:18,600 --> 02:50:23,100
or how do they feel about that?
I know Dave, you you maybe talk

2834
02:50:23,100 --> 02:50:24,800
about that on your podcast a
little bit?

2835
02:50:26,100 --> 02:50:27,500
Key.
I do Chi was the one that

2836
02:50:27,500 --> 02:50:31,700
introduced me to it.
So I mean it was, it was, it was

2837
02:50:31,800 --> 02:50:35,000
yeah, I I'm not sure.
My story is necessarily

2838
02:50:35,000 --> 02:50:38,900
indicative of how that normally
happens.

2839
02:50:38,900 --> 02:50:48,400
But gosh, my wife and polygamy.
We definitely hope.

2840
02:50:49,700 --> 02:50:52,000
That we get to have that
opportunity again.

2841
02:50:53,100 --> 02:50:57,800
My wife describes that period in
our lives as we were living

2842
02:50:57,800 --> 02:51:03,600
plural, marriage as definitely
some of the most spiritually

2843
02:51:03,600 --> 02:51:06,800
rewarding times we ever had.
That doesn't mean it was without

2844
02:51:06,800 --> 02:51:15,600
struggle but what she said is
that we grew closer together all

2845
02:51:15,600 --> 02:51:20,600
of us, did we cleaved to one
another we grew in truth

2846
02:51:20,600 --> 02:51:23,800
together and we Rejoice
together.

2847
02:51:23,800 --> 02:51:29,600
It was some of the most Peaceful
times some of the most

2848
02:51:29,600 --> 02:51:36,500
fulfilling times that I have had
and we were all emotionally open

2849
02:51:36,500 --> 02:51:40,100
and raw with one another and
there were so many blessings to

2850
02:51:40,100 --> 02:51:44,700
be had because it took added
communication.

2851
02:51:45,000 --> 02:51:49,600
It took added feeling, and it
took added work on the part of

2852
02:51:49,600 --> 02:51:53,600
all of us and so we, we hope for
that again.

2853
02:51:54,200 --> 02:51:55,700
Will it happen?
I don't know.

2854
02:51:55,800 --> 02:51:59,700
I hope so.
But yeah, it was it was

2855
02:51:59,700 --> 02:52:03,200
definitely rewarding on a lot of
different levels.

2856
02:52:04,300 --> 02:52:07,400
Does that answer your question?
Absolutely.

2857
02:52:07,500 --> 02:52:10,900
Yeah, I know it's very
interesting.

2858
02:52:13,400 --> 02:52:17,000
I mean, most people obviously
when you talk to them about this

2859
02:52:17,000 --> 02:52:20,000
type of thing, there their
immediate, if it's a guy, it's

2860
02:52:20,000 --> 02:52:22,500
like I can't handle that or
that, you know, that would be

2861
02:52:22,500 --> 02:52:26,600
too much work and you know, if
you talk to maybe women, it's a

2862
02:52:26,600 --> 02:52:29,300
jealousy issue or sharing the
husband and things like that.

2863
02:52:29,800 --> 02:52:34,800
And so, you know, it just it's
curious to me.

2864
02:52:35,700 --> 02:52:38,600
It's a total different world for
me.

2865
02:52:38,600 --> 02:52:42,300
And so peek my head into this
kind of bubbles, very

2866
02:52:42,300 --> 02:52:46,500
interesting.
You either you fellas have

2867
02:52:46,500 --> 02:52:50,500
anything to add.
I mean as I mean look it's no

2868
02:52:50,500 --> 02:52:51,200
secret.
Right?

2869
02:52:51,200 --> 02:52:53,300
I mean how do your wife feel
about it?

2870
02:52:57,100 --> 02:53:03,800
my wife grew up around it, and
she's told me that while she's

2871
02:53:05,000 --> 02:53:07,200
You know, she has the natural
feelings that a woman normally

2872
02:53:07,200 --> 02:53:11,200
feels regarding that hasn't and
see you know and wondering how

2873
02:53:11,200 --> 02:53:15,500
you know what's how's it going
to work and you know you know

2874
02:53:15,500 --> 02:53:18,600
are we going to feel the same
and all of that she has

2875
02:53:18,600 --> 02:53:23,800
expressed to me that she feel
you know, that we didn't enter

2876
02:53:23,800 --> 02:53:25,500
into it.
She feels like she missing

2877
02:53:25,500 --> 02:53:28,900
something, you know cult you
know especially I think

2878
02:53:28,900 --> 02:53:31,700
culturally from what she's in,
you know this she feels that if

2879
02:53:31,700 --> 02:53:34,600
we didn't go there someday that
will be missing opportunities.

2880
02:53:35,200 --> 02:53:37,900
And as you'll regret it but at
the same time that's cut.

2881
02:53:37,900 --> 02:53:40,100
Yeah, it's kind of equally
balanced with the with

2882
02:53:40,100 --> 02:53:43,200
insecurities as well.
I would say that's fair, I think

2883
02:53:43,200 --> 02:53:47,600
it's totally fair because men
have insecurities regarding it

2884
02:53:47,600 --> 02:53:50,900
to.
I know for a fact I do.

2885
02:53:51,200 --> 02:53:55,500
I will admit that.
How do you treat?

2886
02:53:55,600 --> 02:53:58,200
How do you become such a just
person that you can, that you

2887
02:53:58,200 --> 02:54:02,800
can just stand on truth and not
be not be swayed, you know, in

2888
02:54:02,800 --> 02:54:04,600
your hearts going to make your
heart is absolutely.

2889
02:54:04,700 --> 02:54:07,300
Salute going to ache and you're
going to have to be firm and

2890
02:54:07,300 --> 02:54:14,500
immovable and hopefully, then
you know, the wives will learn,

2891
02:54:14,500 --> 02:54:17,900
oh he's he's fixed.
His eyes are on God and and you

2892
02:54:17,900 --> 02:54:20,600
know, and that's a safety net
for me, you know, and I can

2893
02:54:20,600 --> 02:54:23,500
follow that and that's kind of
what I think it's supposed to do

2894
02:54:24,700 --> 02:54:26,800
is, as Dave said.
It brings us family close

2895
02:54:26,800 --> 02:54:31,700
together, under under God.
You know, and that's my

2896
02:54:31,700 --> 02:54:34,000
testimony.
I've seen it, I've lived in a

2897
02:54:34,008 --> 02:54:38,800
household that's plural with
throw wives and I've seen a

2898
02:54:38,800 --> 02:54:43,400
Celestial family that way and I
have a testimony of it and I

2899
02:54:43,400 --> 02:54:48,300
know the hard but it's a
purification thing partly to its

2900
02:54:48,300 --> 02:54:49,800
to see.
How are you going to?

2901
02:54:50,200 --> 02:54:53,700
It's like that Joseph Smith,
actually he liked and is under

2902
02:54:53,700 --> 02:54:59,300
the parable of talents you know
it's a he says he who has just

2903
02:54:59,300 --> 02:55:02,800
one Out of it taken what he has
had and will be given to

2904
02:55:02,800 --> 02:55:04,600
another.
He doesn't magnify it, right?

2905
02:55:05,000 --> 02:55:08,900
And, and, and those who do well
will be blessed to be rules over

2906
02:55:08,900 --> 02:55:11,600
many, right?
That's kind of how he taught

2907
02:55:11,600 --> 02:55:15,400
polygamy.
My wife also grew up around

2908
02:55:15,400 --> 02:55:20,200
polygamy, and it's something
that she seen both the struggles

2909
02:55:20,200 --> 02:55:23,700
and hardship that can happen in
an ideal circumstances.

2910
02:55:23,700 --> 02:55:28,900
And she's also seeing families
in her family, Circle and circle

2911
02:55:28,900 --> 02:55:32,200
of families and friends.
That That did polygamy really

2912
02:55:32,200 --> 02:55:34,600
well, and that's what really
gave her testimony of it.

2913
02:55:34,600 --> 02:55:38,000
As a principle is seeing those
who do plural marriage.

2914
02:55:38,000 --> 02:55:42,600
Well, but as a close friend, of
mine says, he says, even in the

2915
02:55:42,600 --> 02:55:45,500
most ideal circumstances, it's
hard.

2916
02:55:45,500 --> 02:55:48,500
There's you know, challenges and
difficulties that you don't

2917
02:55:48,500 --> 02:55:52,600
encounter in monogamy.
And so everyone, I think who's

2918
02:55:52,700 --> 02:55:54,700
not in polygamy.
But think, you know, they

2919
02:55:55,200 --> 02:55:59,300
expecting, they might be called
to it by the Lord has that

2920
02:55:59,300 --> 02:56:02,100
insecurity.
Of will we be able to handle the

2921
02:56:02,100 --> 02:56:06,200
challenges that come with it?
Both, you know, on the husband's

2922
02:56:06,200 --> 02:56:10,900
part to be loving and caring and
just in in how he treats his

2923
02:56:10,900 --> 02:56:14,400
wives and his children and being
responsible for them, you know,

2924
02:56:14,400 --> 02:56:18,700
having to provide for them and
for women, you know, obviously

2925
02:56:18,700 --> 02:56:24,400
the insecurities that come with
jealousy that can occur or you

2926
02:56:24,400 --> 02:56:27,300
know the other, you know, the
problems that the husband's

2927
02:56:27,300 --> 02:56:29,800
going to have to shoulder so
well.

2928
02:56:30,200 --> 02:56:34,000
Someone will someone be able to
someone like myself would

2929
02:56:34,000 --> 02:56:37,500
someone like myself, who has a
single wife, be able to make it

2930
02:56:37,500 --> 02:56:40,400
to the Celestial Kingdom in your
view?

2931
02:56:41,100 --> 02:56:43,500
In my view?
I think Brigham Young said that

2932
02:56:43,600 --> 02:56:46,800
everyone who is faithful and
goes through those ordeals

2933
02:56:46,800 --> 02:56:49,100
prepared for the Church of the
firstborn, will be able to

2934
02:56:49,100 --> 02:56:51,900
inherit the glory of the father
and the son.

2935
02:56:52,300 --> 02:56:59,000
But what Ely also weighed say is
that that fact that polygamous

2936
02:56:59,000 --> 02:57:02,100
would have a greater In the
Celestial Kingdom is what he

2937
02:57:02,108 --> 02:57:05,900
said are a higher exaltation is
what both lime and white and

2938
02:57:05,900 --> 02:57:08,400
Brigham Young taught.
And so my opinion is that there

2939
02:57:08,400 --> 02:57:10,800
can be monogamous in the
Celestial Kingdom, but everyone

2940
02:57:10,800 --> 02:57:14,000
has to advance to plural
marriage in order to become a

2941
02:57:14,000 --> 02:57:19,500
God and part of that is because
it's, you know, God is as a much

2942
02:57:19,500 --> 02:57:24,100
larger family than any of us can
even imagine, and Joseph Smith

2943
02:57:24,100 --> 02:57:29,900
said that the way we learn how
to become God's is he says to

2944
02:57:29,900 --> 02:57:31,800
know, Oh God, learn how to
become God's.

2945
02:57:31,800 --> 02:57:35,500
God is exalted by the addition
of subjects to his family or

2946
02:57:35,500 --> 02:57:38,500
Kingdom.
So we are commanded in the

2947
02:57:38,500 --> 02:57:41,500
scriptures to multiply
replenish, the are commanded to

2948
02:57:41,500 --> 02:57:46,600
have families and to have
children and to deal with those

2949
02:57:46,600 --> 02:57:49,700
trials and difficulties that
comes from having children, of

2950
02:57:49,700 --> 02:57:53,000
course, we also get the rewards
and the blessings that come with

2951
02:57:53,000 --> 02:57:56,400
with having children and having
large families and flow

2952
02:57:56,400 --> 02:58:01,300
marriage, just magnifies that,
you know, both The difficulties

2953
02:58:01,300 --> 02:58:04,300
and the blessings if done
successfully is my opinion.

2954
02:58:04,300 --> 02:58:07,700
And so that's how why I see
polygamy is a stepping stone to

2955
02:58:07,700 --> 02:58:12,100
exaltation is because it's about
having learning how to govern

2956
02:58:12,600 --> 02:58:16,200
large family kingdom in
righteousness because God

2957
02:58:16,200 --> 02:58:21,900
himself has a large family.
So Very, very cool.

2958
02:58:25,200 --> 02:58:30,200
I think one of one of the things
that at least he see portrayed

2959
02:58:30,200 --> 02:58:35,800
in the media is that either
people are doing this purely for

2960
02:58:35,800 --> 02:58:42,000
sexual motivation motivations or
there is some type of wicked

2961
02:58:42,000 --> 02:58:44,800
cult you know the Warren Jeffs
on Netflix.

2962
02:58:46,000 --> 02:58:50,700
And so the the idea that the
public has is like it either.

2963
02:58:50,900 --> 02:58:54,000
One of those two options like
the TLC version of and I haven't

2964
02:58:54,000 --> 02:58:57,700
watched the show, but people
have told me you know, this

2965
02:58:57,700 --> 02:59:02,200
guy's kind of just sex-crazed to
some extent or you have some

2966
02:59:02,700 --> 02:59:05,100
profit in the wilderness.
You just takes a bunch of people

2967
02:59:05,100 --> 02:59:07,200
wants to, you know, take a bunch
of wives.

2968
02:59:07,200 --> 02:59:11,800
And so you guys, I don't think
your perspective is really out

2969
02:59:11,800 --> 02:59:13,800
there.
The fact that there are

2970
02:59:13,900 --> 02:59:19,100
practicing polygamists to Are
just quiet live low to the

2971
02:59:19,100 --> 02:59:23,300
ground just do their thing and
maybe not known to the broader

2972
02:59:23,300 --> 02:59:26,800
public.
Well yeah I think the majority

2973
02:59:26,900 --> 02:59:32,000
of polygamists are living low to
the ground trying to take care

2974
02:59:32,000 --> 02:59:34,200
of their families doing the
best.

2975
02:59:34,200 --> 02:59:38,200
They can this idea that that
polygamy is about self

2976
02:59:38,200 --> 02:59:41,000
gratification.
There's a lot easier ways to get

2977
02:59:41,000 --> 02:59:43,500
sex than taking on another
family.

2978
02:59:43,800 --> 02:59:48,700
I mean it that that is this
Earliest idea I've ever heard.

2979
02:59:50,300 --> 02:59:53,500
The other thing I'll say, is
that, if a man's going to live

2980
02:59:53,500 --> 03:00:00,000
plural marriage, he had better
have God fixed in his sights.

2981
03:00:00,900 --> 03:00:05,500
Because if you do not, you will
lose everything.

2982
03:00:05,500 --> 03:00:10,100
I have no doubt about that.
I was fortunate that, you know,

2983
03:00:10,100 --> 03:00:13,600
my entire family didn't blow
apart when when my plural

2984
03:00:13,600 --> 03:00:18,500
marriage ended.
I've shared the story before,

2985
03:00:18,500 --> 03:00:20,400
but I'll share it again because
I don't think I've ever shared

2986
03:00:20,400 --> 03:00:25,000
it with you Billy.
When there was a moment where it

2987
03:00:25,000 --> 03:00:32,100
all made sense to me, and that
was, I was watching my wife's,

2988
03:00:32,800 --> 03:00:37,300
we had this five acre spread
where we lived at the time.

2989
03:00:38,200 --> 03:00:41,400
And as usually is the case, I
have a lot of epiphany standing

2990
03:00:41,400 --> 03:00:44,400
in front of the grill.
And if you could really see me

2991
03:00:44,400 --> 03:00:47,300
in full breath, you'd
understand, I stand at the grill

2992
03:00:47,400 --> 03:00:51,500
often so it makes sense.
I guess Revelation there.

2993
03:00:51,900 --> 03:00:55,200
Anyway, I was there and I was
watching all the kids play

2994
03:00:55,200 --> 03:00:58,500
together.
I was watching the girls kind of

2995
03:00:58,500 --> 03:01:01,900
laughing and giggling off by
themselves and it was the

2996
03:01:01,900 --> 03:01:05,700
funniest thought that occurred
to me, I haven't been golfing in

2997
03:01:05,700 --> 03:01:08,800
probably a year and a half and
you know what?

2998
03:01:08,900 --> 03:01:15,500
I didn't care, I didn't care
because in that moment, There's

2999
03:01:15,500 --> 03:01:17,800
nothing more.
I want to do than to serve my

3000
03:01:17,800 --> 03:01:22,400
family.
And so what gets portrayed in

3001
03:01:22,400 --> 03:01:27,100
the media?
What gets portrayed in the news

3002
03:01:27,800 --> 03:01:35,400
is a small slanted sample size.
and so, I learned how to be

3003
03:01:35,400 --> 03:01:40,900
selfless through plural,
marriage, to put all of my wants

3004
03:01:40,900 --> 03:01:44,600
and my desires on the back
burner, to serve my family.

3005
03:01:45,700 --> 03:01:48,900
And and I think you only get
there by having your eyes fixed

3006
03:01:48,900 --> 03:01:53,600
on God.
Very interesting.

3007
03:01:54,500 --> 03:01:58,100
I absolutely agree with that.
Like there's a lot of talk of

3008
03:01:58,200 --> 03:02:02,900
family first and obviously
family comes before your church

3009
03:02:02,900 --> 03:02:08,500
or your country, but I agree
with Dave, that obviously God

3010
03:02:08,500 --> 03:02:12,500
comes before family in, that's
where you need to have your

3011
03:02:12,500 --> 03:02:16,600
heart in your mind, centered on
is serving God, no matter what,

3012
03:02:16,600 --> 03:02:20,500
and I'm trusting in Him and
that's what it's It's, you know,

3013
03:02:20,500 --> 03:02:25,300
to have that Faith to be able
to, you know, do hard things and

3014
03:02:25,300 --> 03:02:29,000
accomplish, you know, in some
sometimes I've seen plural

3015
03:02:29,000 --> 03:02:31,000
families.
I'm like that seems impossible.

3016
03:02:31,000 --> 03:02:34,800
And you need God in order to
make things that appear

3017
03:02:34,800 --> 03:02:39,300
impossible be possible and not
only possible but blessings,

3018
03:02:39,300 --> 03:02:43,600
right?
So, There's that story of I

3019
03:02:43,600 --> 03:02:47,000
think Joseph and Hyrum and I
think Joseph revealed the

3020
03:02:47,000 --> 03:02:50,200
doctrine of polygamy and Hiram's
like all about it very excited

3021
03:02:50,200 --> 03:02:51,800
about it.
I think Joseph's like kind of

3022
03:02:52,400 --> 03:02:54,400
like slap them on the hand a
little bit.

3023
03:02:54,400 --> 03:02:57,900
It was like no you're too
excited about it maybe for the

3024
03:02:57,900 --> 03:02:59,700
wrong reasons.
Is that is that true?

3025
03:03:01,000 --> 03:03:04,800
I haven't heard that story
before, but I do think I do

3026
03:03:04,800 --> 03:03:10,800
think he was converted.
He was very converted and he

3027
03:03:10,900 --> 03:03:14,000
He's the one who's like, I, if I
can be converted than everyone

3028
03:03:14,000 --> 03:03:16,700
else can be converted.
I'm going to read DNC 132 to

3029
03:03:16,700 --> 03:03:20,100
everyone.
And that's how polygamy blew up.

3030
03:03:20,100 --> 03:03:23,300
And novel was really Hiram,
trying to get everyone else on

3031
03:03:23,300 --> 03:03:26,900
board and unfortunately, there
were high, you know, Emma

3032
03:03:26,900 --> 03:03:29,800
obviously wasn't on board.
William law was on board and

3033
03:03:29,800 --> 03:03:34,000
they cause things to blow up out
of control because they were on

3034
03:03:34,000 --> 03:03:38,800
board with it.
But, you know, of a similar

3035
03:03:38,800 --> 03:03:42,500
story like he's talking about
Michael and Not, it's not coming

3036
03:03:42,500 --> 03:03:46,800
to my house.
I haven't heard that with him

3037
03:03:46,800 --> 03:03:50,000
being overly eager, I do know
the context of his conversion.

3038
03:03:50,000 --> 03:03:53,100
I think happened to be that he
had a wife, Donna died, and he

3039
03:03:53,100 --> 03:03:55,900
was married to a second wife,
you know, it was a second

3040
03:03:55,900 --> 03:03:57,400
marriage when he was taught
this.

3041
03:03:57,500 --> 03:04:00,800
This, you know, that Joseph is
brother came to him and said,

3042
03:04:00,800 --> 03:04:05,000
look marriage can be Eternal.
You can have both you know and

3043
03:04:05,000 --> 03:04:10,300
he loved his other wife so much
and this one you know Mary

3044
03:04:10,300 --> 03:04:13,800
Fielding You know so much and it
just he was converted because he

3045
03:04:13,800 --> 03:04:17,500
loved both of them so much and
he's I can have them both in

3046
03:04:17,500 --> 03:04:20,400
eternity.
Not just in this life, you know.

3047
03:04:20,400 --> 03:04:24,300
And that to me, was he and
you're right, he absolutely was

3048
03:04:24,300 --> 03:04:28,700
the one who You know, it was
such it was so crazy because he

3049
03:04:28,700 --> 03:04:33,300
was against what he perceived
jhansi Bennett was doing here.

3050
03:04:33,300 --> 03:04:36,200
Jhansi Bennett was brought into
that program a little bit

3051
03:04:36,200 --> 03:04:39,200
earlier by Joseph Smith and then
he caused it to be whoredom in

3052
03:04:39,200 --> 03:04:43,100
adultery and then hire, you
know, so hyphen was going around

3053
03:04:43,108 --> 03:04:49,400
the steak trying to get rid of
jhansi, Bennett's BS, and kind

3054
03:04:49,400 --> 03:04:52,200
of everyone was kind of on the
lookout because they knew he was

3055
03:04:52,200 --> 03:04:54,700
Joseph's brother.
But Brigham of The Twelve were

3056
03:04:54,700 --> 03:04:57,900
kind of Of in on it and those
kind of I think uncomfortable

3057
03:04:57,900 --> 03:05:01,700
for a little bit right there.
But then when it was explained

3058
03:05:01,700 --> 03:05:04,800
to him and it was the same with
parley P prep, our leafy Pratt

3059
03:05:04,800 --> 03:05:06,500
had.
It was his second marriage by

3060
03:05:06,500 --> 03:05:09,800
the time, it was explained to
him and they were just converted

3061
03:05:09,800 --> 03:05:13,500
to the idea that this this idea
that marriage can exist in your

3062
03:05:13,500 --> 03:05:16,500
family, in your children, you
can have all of them together

3063
03:05:17,100 --> 03:05:19,600
and so I think that's pretty
interesting.

3064
03:05:20,700 --> 03:05:23,000
I think what you're thinking of
is the story of all of our

3065
03:05:23,000 --> 03:05:26,400
cowdrey Brigham Young tells us,
Worried that when Joseph, for

3066
03:05:26,400 --> 03:05:29,400
Scott, the principle of
celestial marriage, while I

3067
03:05:29,408 --> 03:05:33,700
think translating you to the
Book of Mormon or the Joseph

3068
03:05:33,700 --> 03:05:38,100
Smith translation of the Bible
that he got a revelation on, you

3069
03:05:38,100 --> 03:05:40,500
know, plural marriage under
authorized circumstance and

3070
03:05:40,500 --> 03:05:44,300
Oliver want to run with it is
what Brigham Young or called and

3071
03:05:44,300 --> 03:05:47,000
he said that Oliver ran ran with
it.

3072
03:05:47,000 --> 03:05:51,300
Contrary to Joseph's Council and
he saw sorrow and woe for it.

3073
03:05:51,300 --> 03:05:55,100
It's what Brigham Young recalled
I may have gotten the names.

3074
03:05:55,200 --> 03:06:02,800
Mixed up.
But I personally like Brigham's

3075
03:06:02,800 --> 03:06:06,100
response when he said he first
learned about it, he said he

3076
03:06:06,108 --> 03:06:09,500
learned about it and then he
stepped outside and he saw a

3077
03:06:09,500 --> 03:06:12,600
funeral procession and he said
he envied the body inside the

3078
03:06:12,600 --> 03:06:16,900
casket.
So I mean Brigham was was a

3079
03:06:16,900 --> 03:06:18,800
little apprehensive at first as
well.

3080
03:06:18,800 --> 03:06:21,100
I think.
Yeah.

3081
03:06:21,100 --> 03:06:25,100
I think a righteous man is it?
He sees what a trial.

3082
03:06:25,300 --> 03:06:29,000
So the wicked man sees it.
She's pull marriage and goes.

3083
03:06:29,000 --> 03:06:32,100
Woo hoo sex with a lot of women.
This is going to be so fun.

3084
03:06:32,100 --> 03:06:36,300
This is going to be so great and
he's the right and so he's got

3085
03:06:36,300 --> 03:06:39,400
the total around attitude about
it and that's what I believe.

3086
03:06:39,400 --> 03:06:42,800
Jacob, chapter 2 and the Book of
Mormon is condemning, the

3087
03:06:42,800 --> 03:06:47,000
righteous man looks at and says,
look at that responsibility,

3088
03:06:47,000 --> 03:06:48,900
that's now going to be on my
shoulders.

3089
03:06:49,000 --> 03:06:53,500
And the the the financial
responsibility, the emotional

3090
03:06:53,500 --> 03:06:57,800
responsibility.
Of taking care of and the

3091
03:06:57,800 --> 03:07:02,100
hardship that could happen to
the women involved emotionally.

3092
03:07:02,300 --> 03:07:06,900
He looks at it and he says, I
don't want to have to do that is

3093
03:07:06,900 --> 03:07:10,500
what the righteous man does.
But he says I'm willing to do

3094
03:07:10,500 --> 03:07:13,900
what God promises, will bring
the greatest happiness, right?

3095
03:07:13,900 --> 03:07:16,500
I'm willing to do the hard
things that will bring greater

3096
03:07:16,500 --> 03:07:21,500
happiness.
So, I think maybe maybe this

3097
03:07:21,500 --> 03:07:24,900
could ended too is if you guys
want to wrap it in on one

3098
03:07:24,900 --> 03:07:34,500
question, you know?
My journey into this world has

3099
03:07:34,500 --> 03:07:36,600
really been eye-opening and
interesting.

3100
03:07:36,600 --> 03:07:43,400
I met a lot of great people, but
one of the things that I look at

3101
03:07:43,500 --> 03:07:48,500
is, The worldview that gets
built from.

3102
03:07:50,100 --> 03:07:54,900
From the these Concepts.
And so when we look at polygamy,

3103
03:07:54,900 --> 03:08:00,600
when we look at Adam God, they
get introduced the church and it

3104
03:08:00,600 --> 03:08:05,400
almost seems like automatically
within decades, the church

3105
03:08:05,400 --> 03:08:08,800
stamps down on these doctrines.
And so for an outsider looking

3106
03:08:08,800 --> 03:08:14,300
in, if God is truly behind this
movement of restoration, what

3107
03:08:14,600 --> 03:08:18,000
what happened?
What the heck happened and

3108
03:08:18,000 --> 03:08:20,900
that's always been Like a
reoccurring thought of my mind

3109
03:08:20,900 --> 03:08:25,400
is like you kind of almost
measure things by their fruit or

3110
03:08:25,400 --> 03:08:28,800
test things by their fruit.
And so maybe if you guys want to

3111
03:08:28,800 --> 03:08:32,200
end it here and let me also say
this one last thing is as a

3112
03:08:32,200 --> 03:08:36,400
Lutheran, I think there are a
lot of similarities between how

3113
03:08:36,400 --> 03:08:39,800
we kind of approach this thing.
It's almost like the Catholic

3114
03:08:39,800 --> 03:08:43,400
church had gone astray and so we
looked at the Lutheran

3115
03:08:43,400 --> 03:08:48,200
confession often uses patristics
in order to make their argument

3116
03:08:48,200 --> 03:08:50,300
to say We're not teaching
anything new.

3117
03:08:50,600 --> 03:08:52,800
This is kind of getting back to
the old stuff.

3118
03:08:52,900 --> 03:08:56,200
You know, they're quoting the
word of God.

3119
03:08:56,300 --> 03:08:59,100
And so in a similar way, you
guys are going back to the early

3120
03:08:59,100 --> 03:09:02,500
Mormon, Founders and quoting.
And so there is that parallel

3121
03:09:02,500 --> 03:09:08,900
between us and in terms of how
we approach the faith, but how

3122
03:09:08,900 --> 03:09:14,500
would you guys view the fact
that the church is in the state

3123
03:09:14,500 --> 03:09:19,500
where of maybe disarray right
now, Michael, I saw your Ergo up

3124
03:09:19,500 --> 03:09:24,400
like you wanted to take this 10
ISO, do I am passionate about

3125
03:09:24,400 --> 03:09:29,000
this one growing up in the
church especially and finding,

3126
03:09:29,100 --> 03:09:32,700
you know, fundamentalism and
Jacobs the same way and he grew

3127
03:09:32,700 --> 03:09:36,600
up in the church and I think we
were late on that so much, but

3128
03:09:36,600 --> 03:09:41,600
we But I know that I have a
testimony of these principles.

3129
03:09:42,100 --> 03:09:46,100
Brigham Young said to the saints
that the saints were going to

3130
03:09:46,100 --> 03:09:49,200
get Revelations.
And at the Saints did not accept

3131
03:09:49,200 --> 03:09:52,200
the revelations.
Then they would be sent all the

3132
03:09:52,200 --> 03:09:55,100
revelations, not the spirit of
God, and they would believe

3133
03:09:55,100 --> 03:09:58,300
those Revelations and that goes
online with Thessalonians,

3134
03:09:58,300 --> 03:10:00,900
right?
Where God says, you know, they

3135
03:10:00,900 --> 03:10:03,700
love Ally will be sent strong
delusions.

3136
03:10:03,700 --> 03:10:07,000
So they will be double, leave
that life that they want to,

3137
03:10:07,100 --> 03:10:09,400
they do.
I want the truth and so in a big

3138
03:10:09,400 --> 03:10:13,800
instant you know, unfortunately
the case a lot of Mormons

3139
03:10:14,800 --> 03:10:18,300
towards the turn of the century,
they got no point I think where

3140
03:10:18,300 --> 03:10:24,000
they didn't want the truth and I
do that the priesthood and the

3141
03:10:24,000 --> 03:10:28,700
church are separate and the
church is an appendage, the

3142
03:10:28,700 --> 03:10:32,100
priesthood.
And Brigham Young taught that in

3143
03:10:32,100 --> 03:10:35,900
the, you know, with this great
apostasy to happen the last time

3144
03:10:36,300 --> 03:10:39,300
that it wasn't that the
priesthood was taken out of the

3145
03:10:39,300 --> 03:10:41,200
church.
It's that the church that Christ

3146
03:10:41,200 --> 03:10:44,200
established went away from the
priest of, they went away from

3147
03:10:44,500 --> 03:10:48,700
the laws in the ordinances, and
that's what happened first.

3148
03:10:48,900 --> 03:10:51,100
So, that's what in this case.
It's the same thing.

3149
03:10:52,200 --> 03:10:55,700
I believe that Authority was
maintained and to perpetuate it,

3150
03:10:56,500 --> 03:10:59,300
you know, ordinances like,
plural, marriage.

3151
03:11:00,300 --> 03:11:05,200
So that can continue and there
have been men from, you know,

3152
03:11:05,200 --> 03:11:08,400
that kind of in this Middle
Ground, you know, between the

3153
03:11:08,400 --> 03:11:11,900
Pioneer era and the modern era
who were willing to stand on,

3154
03:11:12,700 --> 03:11:14,700
this is what we were taught.
This is what we're going to

3155
03:11:14,708 --> 03:11:17,200
stick to and this is what we're
going to teach our children.

3156
03:11:17,200 --> 03:11:20,800
No matter what.
Yeah, what is taught in general

3157
03:11:20,800 --> 03:11:23,400
conferences now.
Yeah, because you had a huge,

3158
03:11:23,400 --> 03:11:27,200
you had a huge turnout change of
policy and everything, under

3159
03:11:27,200 --> 03:11:30,300
Heber J.
Grant in the 1920s that

3160
03:11:30,300 --> 03:11:32,700
completely reinvented Mormonism,
I think.

3161
03:11:33,900 --> 03:11:39,600
And so, I really think it goes
back to the fact that you over

3162
03:11:39,600 --> 03:11:41,600
you will believe strong
delusions.

3163
03:11:41,800 --> 03:11:45,200
If you don't want the truth and
and Brigham Young also said

3164
03:11:45,200 --> 03:11:47,600
that, by the time you get into
that condition.

3165
03:11:48,200 --> 03:11:51,500
Yeah.
You're the leaders.

3166
03:11:51,700 --> 03:11:54,300
Are just going to lead you
because they're blind

3167
03:11:54,300 --> 03:11:56,600
themselves, you know, and you're
just going to follow them.

3168
03:12:01,400 --> 03:12:04,000
Sorry, it was really interesting
to see.

3169
03:12:04,000 --> 03:12:07,400
Someone like, I guess, Bruce are
McConkey and he, you know, in

3170
03:12:07,400 --> 03:12:10,200
his BYU speech, just totally
bashed.

3171
03:12:10,200 --> 03:12:13,100
Adam God Doctrine.
It's like this is a Doctrine

3172
03:12:13,100 --> 03:12:16,400
that's taught by Brigham Young.
And so, it's like kind of this

3173
03:12:16,400 --> 03:12:19,700
weird.
I don't understand it, but go

3174
03:12:19,700 --> 03:12:22,100
ahead, Jacob.
Yeah, he said, I won't throw

3175
03:12:22,100 --> 03:12:25,100
stones at Brigham Young, but
anyone who believes that now

3176
03:12:25,100 --> 03:12:27,000
isn't going to know if they've
been through.

3177
03:12:27,200 --> 03:12:29,900
The endowment, they don't
deserve salvation is what, you

3178
03:12:29,900 --> 03:12:32,700
know, the irony of saying, I
won't condemn Brigham Young for

3179
03:12:32,700 --> 03:12:35,300
what he taught, but I condemn
anyone who believes it now.

3180
03:12:35,500 --> 03:12:38,800
So we believe that the gospel is
something that's not supposed to

3181
03:12:38,800 --> 03:12:41,500
be changed.
That, you know, the truth is our

3182
03:12:41,500 --> 03:12:45,900
true today were true. 100 years
ago were true 200 years ago,

3183
03:12:45,900 --> 03:12:51,600
where true 1,000 2,000 years ago
and so, you know, that's what

3184
03:12:51,600 --> 03:12:55,000
we're seeking after is truth.
And it's kind of in the

3185
03:12:55,000 --> 03:12:59,000
scriptures, the pattern of
Different dispensations, that

3186
03:12:59,000 --> 03:13:01,900
they start off with a grand
restoration, but then there is

3187
03:13:01,900 --> 03:13:04,900
gradual, apostasy that Creeps in
or abrupt.

3188
03:13:04,900 --> 03:13:10,100
Apostasy, in the case of Moses.
He said, the children of Israel

3189
03:13:10,100 --> 03:13:13,000
were not worthy of the higher
things and he broke the first

3190
03:13:13,000 --> 03:13:17,100
tablets and he cursed them and
it that's kind of more direct

3191
03:13:17,100 --> 03:13:22,500
and LDS scriptures but in the
what's in the Bible?

3192
03:13:22,500 --> 03:13:24,800
You can still see that they
didn't get God's original plan

3193
03:13:24,800 --> 03:13:28,500
with where God said I was To
take the firstborn of all of

3194
03:13:28,500 --> 03:13:31,200
Israel and have them all, be
priests to me, of all the

3195
03:13:31,200 --> 03:13:33,800
tribes.
But because instead, I am only

3196
03:13:33,800 --> 03:13:37,300
going to do the Levites.
And I personally think that's

3197
03:13:37,300 --> 03:13:41,800
because when the sin of Israel
happened like the Senate at the

3198
03:13:41,800 --> 03:13:46,100
golden calf that Levites were
the ones least in transgression.

3199
03:13:46,100 --> 03:13:49,000
And so God said they're still
going to be able to get pulled,

3200
03:13:49,000 --> 03:13:53,100
the Priestly Authority.
And so I see with early

3201
03:13:53,100 --> 03:13:57,000
Christianity, you have a lot of
great truths that over time.

3202
03:13:57,300 --> 03:13:59,900
You start to see Innovations
Crypt creep in.

3203
03:13:59,900 --> 03:14:03,600
And as you say as a Lutheran you
also you know, see that the

3204
03:14:03,600 --> 03:14:07,300
Catholic Church changed Doctrine
and things gradually became

3205
03:14:07,300 --> 03:14:10,400
different and with the LDS
church, it's no different.

3206
03:14:10,400 --> 03:14:14,200
I see, that's just the pattern
of every dispensation, what

3207
03:14:14,600 --> 03:14:18,500
Mormon fundamentalist believe is
that we believe that the truth

3208
03:14:18,500 --> 03:14:21,300
that were restored through
Joseph, Brigham and, and they're

3209
03:14:21,500 --> 03:14:24,700
worthy, contemporaries were
restored to stay on the earth

3210
03:14:24,700 --> 03:14:26,600
this time and not to be lost
again.

3211
03:14:26,800 --> 03:14:29,400
And at the priesthood this time,
even if the church goes into

3212
03:14:29,400 --> 03:14:33,500
apostasy that the priesthood is
to be preserved, and that there

3213
03:14:33,500 --> 03:14:37,000
will be a people that will build
up Zion and received the

3214
03:14:37,000 --> 03:14:40,300
choicest blessings of the Lord.
And so, I hope that we can all

3215
03:14:40,300 --> 03:14:45,700
strive to, you know, be as I and
like people, you know, that in

3216
03:14:45,700 --> 03:14:50,100
the, that's a term in Mormon,
scripture, people were called

3217
03:14:50,100 --> 03:14:52,400
Zion because they're one heart
and one mind.

3218
03:14:52,700 --> 03:14:57,900
Where is that priesthood?
If you had a breach that I'm,

3219
03:14:58,300 --> 03:15:01,100
I'm glad he didn't get to win
the Prix.

3220
03:15:01,800 --> 03:15:05,000
In the pre message list.
There was like, living prophets.

3221
03:15:05,000 --> 03:15:07,200
How do you discern a true
Prophet from a false prophet?

3222
03:15:07,200 --> 03:15:09,600
Where are the keys?
That's like a whole other.

3223
03:15:09,600 --> 03:15:12,700
Okay, well, we can discuss, you
know, it will leave that for

3224
03:15:12,700 --> 03:15:14,400
part 2.
I think that would be a good

3225
03:15:14,400 --> 03:15:18,700
part 2.
That's funny.

3226
03:15:19,000 --> 03:15:23,900
All right, you know as as far as
what's what happened with the

3227
03:15:23,900 --> 03:15:29,400
church?
You've heard really to eloquent

3228
03:15:29,400 --> 03:15:33,300
answers from Michael and Jacob.
Now you're going to get the

3229
03:15:33,308 --> 03:15:35,600
rough version.
Billy are you old enough to

3230
03:15:35,600 --> 03:15:41,400
remember New Coke?
I've never tried it.

3231
03:15:41,400 --> 03:15:44,200
I know like that whole marketing
scheme though they did.

3232
03:15:44,200 --> 03:15:48,100
Yeah they like took the original
formula and really screwed with

3233
03:15:48,100 --> 03:15:52,000
it and it just tasted horrible.
Like he wanted to lick your own

3234
03:15:52,000 --> 03:15:55,500
armpit to get the taste out of
your mouth right now.

3235
03:15:55,600 --> 03:15:57,900
I believe the LDS church and
they've been doing it for a

3236
03:15:57,900 --> 03:16:03,000
while.
A lot of people are getting new

3237
03:16:03,000 --> 03:16:05,700
Coke version of Mormonism,
right?

3238
03:16:05,700 --> 03:16:07,900
It's just not what it was meant
to be.

3239
03:16:08,100 --> 03:16:14,000
And I think, I think the how we
got here and I say we as Mormons

3240
03:16:14,000 --> 03:16:19,200
in general is I think we got
sick of being weird, right?

3241
03:16:19,200 --> 03:16:23,900
Because let's face it when when,
when the manifesto the second or

3242
03:16:23,900 --> 03:16:27,300
third or fourth, whatever time
came out that they were serious,

3243
03:16:27,300 --> 03:16:31,800
that time there wasn't a lot of
outcry from the members, right?

3244
03:16:32,200 --> 03:16:35,900
And so when the Lord sets up a
people and he's always done

3245
03:16:35,900 --> 03:16:37,700
this, he said you're going to be
strange.

3246
03:16:38,000 --> 03:16:40,700
Going to be peculiar, you're
going to be different.

3247
03:16:41,100 --> 03:16:46,000
And I think that unless you're
in it for the long haul, you get

3248
03:16:46,000 --> 03:16:47,800
sick of being different really
quickly.

3249
03:16:47,800 --> 03:16:53,200
And when you start to compromise
your beliefs or your

3250
03:16:53,200 --> 03:16:57,200
convictions, even a little bit,
you've put yourself on a

3251
03:16:57,208 --> 03:17:01,900
slippery slope and so I think I
think the church got sick of

3252
03:17:01,908 --> 03:17:04,700
being viewed as weird.
I think they were aiming for

3253
03:17:04,700 --> 03:17:07,900
some political things and I
think that's ultimately how we

3254
03:17:08,100 --> 03:17:12,100
Here.
The I mean, goodness out of

3255
03:17:12,100 --> 03:17:16,400
better myself, an outsider
looking in, you know, one of the

3256
03:17:16,400 --> 03:17:19,900
things I do appreciate about you
guys is the community that you

3257
03:17:19,900 --> 03:17:24,800
have the identity of a more like
a Mormon, identity, and you guys

3258
03:17:24,800 --> 03:17:30,400
built something, you guys built
a city, and I so wish Christians

3259
03:17:30,800 --> 03:17:33,200
do that.
It seems like we've lost that

3260
03:17:33,200 --> 03:17:37,100
drive, we kind of just become so
fragmented, but you know,

3261
03:17:37,700 --> 03:17:41,700
meeting me.
Like Mormon missionaries and

3262
03:17:41,700 --> 03:17:44,200
looking into this about like the
general conference.

3263
03:17:44,600 --> 03:17:48,900
You guys, the mainstream church
has turned into, like, almost

3264
03:17:48,900 --> 03:17:55,600
American evangelicalism like,
like kind of corny, you know,

3265
03:17:55,600 --> 03:18:00,100
suit and tie and you read about
these, these early Mormons,

3266
03:18:00,100 --> 03:18:04,100
they're like Cowboys, they're
like chewing tobacco going out

3267
03:18:04,100 --> 03:18:06,600
into the Wilderness communing
with God, their kind of, you

3268
03:18:06,600 --> 03:18:10,900
know, bad ass.
If I could say, And and there's

3269
03:18:10,900 --> 03:18:14,700
a disconnect between what
happened then and now and so

3270
03:18:14,700 --> 03:18:19,200
it's interesting looking at that
historical perspective Shameless

3271
03:18:19,200 --> 03:18:25,200
plug almost like they were
Renegades stairs myself.

3272
03:18:27,900 --> 03:18:32,500
But I appreciate you guys having
me on and we'll certainly have

3273
03:18:32,500 --> 03:18:35,200
to do.
You mean there's so many things

3274
03:18:35,200 --> 03:18:38,700
that we didn't hit, you know,
the life of Joseph Smith and

3275
03:18:38,700 --> 03:18:41,100
things like this.
You know, things that we just

3276
03:18:41,100 --> 03:18:43,700
get lost on but we'll certainly
have to do it Park.

3277
03:18:43,700 --> 03:18:44,800
Do and thank you for having me
on.

3278
03:18:45,100 --> 03:18:50,200
Absolutely look.
Jacob, why don't you go ahead

3279
03:18:50,200 --> 03:18:52,900
and say what you wanted to say
at the end here?

3280
03:18:52,900 --> 03:18:56,200
And we'll move to Michael and
then I'll finish her up.

3281
03:18:57,200 --> 03:19:00,000
Well, I've just I've really
enjoyed this conversation Billy.

3282
03:19:00,000 --> 03:19:03,000
I'm appreciate the invite to be
a part of this.

3283
03:19:03,000 --> 03:19:06,500
Dave, it's been a pleasure.
I haven't enjoyed this and I'm

3284
03:19:06,500 --> 03:19:09,900
glad we can you know the
original list of questions.

3285
03:19:09,900 --> 03:19:14,100
I was like man, these are you
know, cover a wide array of

3286
03:19:14,100 --> 03:19:17,900
topics and I'm glad that this
time we kind of we kind of focus

3287
03:19:17,900 --> 03:19:21,900
on Shoes.
And I thought, I think it's I

3288
03:19:21,900 --> 03:19:23,500
think it's just been a great
conversation.

3289
03:19:23,500 --> 03:19:27,200
I've really enjoyed it and I'm
grateful to have diff, you know,

3290
03:19:27,200 --> 03:19:31,100
conversations that are Pleasant
and enjoyable and we're having

3291
03:19:31,100 --> 03:19:33,100
fun.
Even if we don't agree on

3292
03:19:33,100 --> 03:19:36,500
everything, you know, I think
that's during one of the breaks.

3293
03:19:36,500 --> 03:19:39,300
That was something.
I think you guys mentioned that,

3294
03:19:40,600 --> 03:19:43,500
you know, that people need to be
able to have conversations even

3295
03:19:43,500 --> 03:19:47,100
if they disagree with other
people and they need to have

3296
03:19:47,100 --> 03:19:50,200
civil discussions and not get
two heated, but have fun with

3297
03:19:50,200 --> 03:19:55,800
it, right?
Absolutely. - look, that's it

3298
03:19:55,800 --> 03:19:59,800
was a good time.
I think it flowed really good

3299
03:20:00,000 --> 03:20:03,800
the whole deal and we didn't
depart from the list that we we

3300
03:20:03,800 --> 03:20:05,900
received.
But I think that I think it went

3301
03:20:05,900 --> 03:20:09,000
organically and I think we had
some great back and forth every

3302
03:20:09,000 --> 03:20:13,400
single way, you know, whether it
was Bill pushing back or, or

3303
03:20:13,400 --> 03:20:16,300
Jacob.
And I answering I think I think

3304
03:20:16,300 --> 03:20:17,900
there were some good stuff in
there, boy.

3305
03:20:17,900 --> 03:20:21,900
So I really appreciate that.
Absolutely, guys, thank you.

3306
03:20:22,100 --> 03:20:25,300
Absolutely look, Billy.
It's always refreshing to come

3307
03:20:25,300 --> 03:20:27,300
across someone who's just an
honest seeker.

3308
03:20:27,400 --> 03:20:31,200
And that's what I see in.
You is just somebody who, who

3309
03:20:31,200 --> 03:20:34,800
wants to find out for himself,
and that's so admirable.

3310
03:20:34,900 --> 03:20:39,100
Admirable in today's world.
Jacob, we've had some epic

3311
03:20:39,100 --> 03:20:41,700
conversations.
I love your perspectives.

3312
03:20:41,700 --> 03:20:44,300
I love your, your takes on
things Michael.

3313
03:20:44,500 --> 03:20:48,800
You were I think the second or
third guy interviewed and so

3314
03:20:49,300 --> 03:20:53,500
again just I love the way you
present the gospel, love the way

3315
03:20:53,500 --> 03:20:55,500
that you communicate.
I think it's great and I love

3316
03:20:55,500 --> 03:20:57,200
all three.
Are you guys I really do and I

3317
03:20:57,208 --> 03:21:00,900
can't tell you how much I
appreciate just being able to be

3318
03:21:00,900 --> 03:21:02,800
a part of this and hang out with
you guys.

3319
03:21:02,800 --> 03:21:05,800
It's been the highlight of my
week, definitely.

3320
03:21:06,400 --> 03:21:09,900
So other than that, let's look
forward to part two.

3321
03:21:09,900 --> 03:21:12,400
Let's keep in touch and let's,
let's set that up.

3322
03:21:12,400 --> 03:21:15,400
All right.
Gentlemen, good night.

3323
03:21:15,400 --> 03:21:16,900
Thank you so much.
We'll have to do part 2.

3324
03:21:17,100 --> 03:21:18,500
Absolutely.
Alright.

3325
03:21:18,500 --> 03:21:19,300
Bye everybody.