Episode #198: A Plan To Preserve Faith W/Justin Francom

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The you're listening to the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

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All right bro, here we go.
You ready?

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Here we are, here we are.
I teased this thing.

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I have called people that have
called me to reach out for

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questions for answers, and I
haven't had good answers for

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them on this one particular
topic until your idea came up,

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till you were revealed, until
you got the revelation necessary

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to go forward.
And I'm super excited to jump

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into that.
But before we do, I feel like

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we've probably got to set the
table right.

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Yes, definitely.
So let's, what we're going to

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talk about tonight has been
borne out, quite frankly, in my

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opinion, of just not knowing
quite what to do because it

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feels like all the the tools
have been there, but we didn't

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know quite how to put them all
together.

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Now we need to discuss the
impetus for this, right?

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And look, if you're listening to
this podcast, it's not because

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you think things are rosy and
great inside the church, right?

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If you're an active LDS member,
you didn't get here by accident,

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right?
Chances are you bumped into a

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lot of anti Mormon content and
now you're at a place of

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choosing.
And so we're going to talk about

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what's going on behind the
scenes first that prompted this,

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the problems.
And then I think that there's

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going to be a very unique
solution as we wrap this up.

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So Justin, take her away, bud.
All right, well, I want to start

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by talking about a docu series
that just came out and it's

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called Inconvenient Face.
An Inconvenient Face.

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Oh, I don't know if anybody see
that.

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Yet Al Gore.
Yeah, Al, Al Gore, I saw this

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just the other day and I was
going through it and it just

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reconfirmed that I feel like we
need some response there, needs

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some answers to this kind of
thing that's going on in the

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church.
And this is the perfect

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springboard I think, to talk
about some of these topics.

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Gotcha.
So did you have a chance to see

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the docu series?
I saw parts of it, but I didn't

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get to watch the whole thing
just because, quite frankly, my

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phone rings, you know, just
without mercy for 12:15 hours a

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day.
So I wish I did, but I'm going

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to have you scoot just a little
close here.

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So we make sure that we're
getting getting all the mics

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picked up.
Good.

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Perfect.
Yeah, OK, well, here we go.

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The I, I just got some summary
here to this docu series that I

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just want to go over.
So there's an intro video, and

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one of the main points here is,
is that things are kind of not

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going well.
No, no, I'm serious.

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I.
I had no idea.

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It's a very different
perspective, though.

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This is coming from a a
different end of the political

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spectrum.
This is things are not going

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well in the church because it's
not embracing modern values.

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Gotcha.
And they're putting forth an

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argument that the church isn't
going to survive in a modern

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world if it doesn't start
adopting some of these modern

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values and understandings of
things.

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Well, they're kind of not wrong,
right?

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Like if the church wants to fit
in in today's society, it

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doesn't have a choice.
It's got to do that.

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It's got if, if, if they're not
going to follow the Savior's

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commandment or admonition to be
that light on the hill and all

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they want to do is blend in with
the rest of society, they have

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no other choices but to change
up things towards the left hand

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side of the spectrum, right?
Right.

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And that's where this I find
most concerning, because it

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starts off with basically this
idea that Mormon theology and

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history is unsalvageable.
And So what we really need to do

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is reinvent Mormonism, not be
reconverted to it.

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But.
Reinvented.

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You know, that's interesting.
You should say that because, and

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I want to say this, I like this
book.

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I really did in a lot of ways.
But Richard Bushman's book,

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Rough Stone Rolling, right?
There were times that I felt

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like you got an honest peek at
Joseph Smith, but then there

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were other times that I feel
like Bushman went off the rails,

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right?
And what's what's interesting to

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know about Rough Stone Rolling
is that that author Richard

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Bushman was in a fireside, OK.
And this was like a closed off

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group for a fireside, right?
This to me looked like if I was

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just to gauge it, and this is
just my guess.

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It was in a very nice home with
a lot of people that look like

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they had a lot of Jack, a lot of
money, right?

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And he said something that
scared me to death, which is

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we're going to have to not
reinvent, but retell our origin

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story to something that's more
digestible for modern

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consumption.
And I'm like, that's a problem.

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I mean, look, what is this?
This is the restoration, right?

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So let's talk about cars for a
second, right?

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If you're restoring a 1969
Mustang, man, you're putting

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that original V6 in there.
You're making sure that that

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drop top is, is tight and right,
that that the nice door flares

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are all there like cherry
perfect, right, right.

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If you take the body of a 1969
Mustang and you drop in a Prius,

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that's not a restoration, right?
That is something different.

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And I, I think what Bushman is
saying in this instance, and I

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think it goes along with these
videos, is that we have to

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retell our history and package
it for modern consumption,

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right?
And we see this, right?

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We see it in the little things.
And if you know what to look

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for, it gets very obvious,
right?

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It used to be when you and I
were in the church, late 90s,

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mid 90s, what was what, what was
the, the, the, the narrative?

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Joseph took plates and
translated them, right?

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It's been tweaked a little bit.
Now it's Joseph received the

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Book of Mormon by revelation.
Right.

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That's different than translate,
right?

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Yeah.
That almost goes to the

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Community of Christ inspired
fiction sort of a thing.

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Well, that's exactly where the
stocky series goes.

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The first thing it does is it
goes straight to the Book of

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Mormon.
OK.

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And it presents this idea that
that, well, it points out that

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the truthfulness of the LDS
Church claims is dependent on

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the truthfulness of the Book of
Mormon.

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Gotcha.
But then it goes on to say that,

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well, the Book of Mormon's
clearly not historical, but it's

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inspiring and powerful.
It changes people's lives for

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the better, even if it is a a
work of fiction.

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And that's, that's the starting
premise of this docu series is

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that this can be a good thing.
Even if it's not true, this can

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still be a good thing.
See.

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And that's where I'm like, OK,
well, you know what?

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I've been to a couple Jimmy
Buffett concerts, and those make

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me feel real good.
But I'm not ready to say that's

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the origin story of Mormonism,
right?

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Like, just because it feels good
doesn't mean it's true, right?

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And just because we don't
understand something doesn't

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mean it's not true.
And we have to parse this out if

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we're going to continue, but,
right?

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Well, it's interesting to note
too, that a lot of the people in

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the stocky series are, you know,
like John Delenn and stuff.

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These are guys that are, well,
what we would call anti Mormon.

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No, And yet they're, they want
to hold on to the, the, the, the

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recognition of the well, no, no,
we're Mormon 2.

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This is Mormon 2.
We're going to redefine what it

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means to be Mormon.
And the first step is the Book

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of Mormon.
And they want you to accept that

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this is not a historical record.
This is not a a true story of

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ancient Americans.
This is a beautiful piece of

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fiction that is wonderful and
helps people to grow and come to

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Christ and does good things for
their lives.

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And you can reject basically the
doctrine of it though, because

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it's just, it was made-up.
So it's, it's the, it's the

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inception point for what they're
really trying to accomplish

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here, which is, well, we'll,
we'll get into that, right?

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OK, so they start with the Book
of Mormon and they and they set

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that stage and then they move
into LGBTQ ish, LGBTQI plus

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whatever, right?
I'm shocked.

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That's that's their next point
that they just go straight to.

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And basically they present some
ideas that, first of all, the

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church is harmful to LGBTQ
people.

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Yep, we've heard that for quite
a while, right?

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It's interesting and I want to
be careful how I say this.

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Any loss of life, especially by
suicide is tragic.

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I don't care what your sexual
orientation is, that's tragic.

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But that side of the argument
will say, well, it's the

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church's fault.
When in all actuality, if you

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look at suicidal ideation and
action, it's not any worse or

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higher in a Mormon sphere as
opposed to even just a normal

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family, right.
Yeah.

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That's because if, if you have
those feelings, you are really

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struggling and you're you're
presented with two options.

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And so I've never bought in that
the LDS Church, look, obviously

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I have my my issues with the LDS
church, but they're not on the

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hook for that.
They're not on the hook for

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that, no.
And there's something to be

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recognized that that our these
people struggling with these

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things are our brothers and
sisters.

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Yes.
The question is, is are we going

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to affirm them?
Right.

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In these problems or are we
going to really try to reach out

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help administer them?
There was there was a there was

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a time when there was a website,
I think it was Mormons and gays,

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yes.
And the LDS church was putting

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on a very strong Yep.
What do you call that campaign?

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You try to reach out and say,
hey, we under we, we, we want to

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understand what you're going
through and that you could be

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going through this and you can
still be a member of this faith.

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And I think that is absolutely
true.

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But the narrative has shifted
from these are things that

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you're struggling with and
you're struggling with these

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things in relation in your in
your relationship with God, to

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an idea that these are things
that because the church is

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speaking out against, it's
causing the problem.

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So it's like an alcoholic.
Right.

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From my my father was an
alcoholic and he struggles with

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these things and it doesn't help
him to say that hey, that's OK.

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No.
Now, I have a lot of compassion

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and love for my father, but it
doesn't help him to say that

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it's OK to, to hide from these
things, the things that are

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damaging spiritually,
physically, and they, they lead

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to problems.
It is a natural.

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See, ultimately, truth is truth.
I don't believe that God gives

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us commandments because God's
some sort of an arbitrary

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dictator sitting up there
wanting us to obey his every

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whim.
I believe that the commandments

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that we're given are for our own
benefit.

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These things.
He doesn't give us commandments

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because He wants to damn us if
we disobey.

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He's giving us these
commandments because there's

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these underlying truths.
And you don't.

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You're not going to find the
purpose and the happiness and

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the joy that God has prepared
for us when we live in

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delusions.
Absolutely.

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You know, I've, I've used this
metaphor before, which is if you

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go to the doctor and you got
cancer, what do you want the

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doctor to do?
You want the doctor to 1st be

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like, you know, test results
came back and damn, Justin's got

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cancer.
But I love Justin and I don't

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want to see Justin suffer.
So you know what?

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I'm just not going to tell him
he has cancer.

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Or do you want the Doctor Who's
going to sit you down and be

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like, Justin, not going to lie
to you, you got cancer and it's

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bad.
But I think we can save your

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life.
But you're going to have to go

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through through some stuff to
get there.

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Well, I think all of us would
say, well, give me the doctor

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that's going to shoot me
straight, right?

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Because I want to live OK with
some of our our gay brothers and

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sisters who are struggling with
this.

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It does them no good for us to
ignore that and say, well, no,

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there's you're you're fine just
the way you are.

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Right.
Right.

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And here's the other thing,
Justin, did you ever get the

226
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:49,920
message in in the gospel that
you're OK just the way you are?

227
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,040
Never.
Yeah, me neither.

228
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,440
You know what the gospel does
for me?

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00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,200
You got to reach higher.
You got to work harder.

230
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,600
You got to put away the natural
man, right?

231
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,200
So we're not really in that much
different of a boat, right,

232
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,760
Other than.
My own struggles, right?

233
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,600
I have to fight with them daily.
Yes.

234
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,640
Daily.
It's a daily struggle to try to

235
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identify what I need to be doing
to be in alignment with God.

236
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Absolutely.
And whether it's temptations

237
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,360
towards homosexuality or
anything else, we all face the

238
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,000
same struggles, right?
They're different struggles.

239
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,880
But we all struggle.
None of us, none of us, none of

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00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:32,920
this.
It comes easy to.

241
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,360
And which just like, Oh yeah,
yeah, this is this is an easy

242
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,320
fit.
No.

243
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,640
We make sacrifices and we trust
in God.

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And I have found my in my own
life, I have found healing and

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00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,920
transformation through the
atonement.

246
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,920
That's the message of the gospel
is that we all fell short.

247
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,880
We all came down here with these
Great Expectations and we all

248
00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:57,960
fell short.
We didn't live up to those

249
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,920
expectations.
Beauty of the gospel is that

250
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,320
through the Atonement, through
the through the love of our

251
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:11,120
Savior, that we can find that
comfort and solace.

252
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,680
Absolutely that God hasn't
forsaken us.

253
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,600
I don't believe he has.
I don't believe he's forsaken

254
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:20,440
anybody on this earth.
But if we really want to get

255
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,480
things in order, we have to
listen to what God has to say on

256
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,360
these issues 100%.
And when it comes to these LGBTQ

257
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,920
ish Qi plus whatever issues,
these are things that are

258
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,040
ultimately detrimental to our
souls.

259
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,480
Yes.
And whitewashing it and making

260
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,280
it as something that, well,
you're just different and these

261
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:47,840
are natural.
This is OK.

262
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,080
I don't, I don't understand the
whole thing to be honest.

263
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,440
But I, I've got friends that
have struggled with this.

264
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:58,960
And the best outcome has come
from those who have, through the

265
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,240
atonement, found transformation.
And I absolutely believe that

266
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,520
that is possible.
I've seen it in my own life with

267
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,599
friends that have struggled with
these things, and I've found it

268
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,400
in my own life with the things
that I struggle with.

269
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,640
The beauty of the gospel in the
atonement is, is that we can

270
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:21,640
find healing.
And it seems like that message

271
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,760
isn't as prominent in the LDS
church.

272
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,800
In fact, right now there's a
guy, Jacob Hansen, he's been

273
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:36,720
taking a lot of Flack over his
stance and, and reaffirming the

274
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,000
doctrines that are in the family
proclamation.

275
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,040
And I think that's a very valid
place to be 100%.

276
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:49,440
And I don't think that we should
have to feel ashamed of our

277
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,760
convictions that God knows
what's best for us.

278
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,880
Absolutely.
But I, I feel like that's kind

279
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,880
of the message of this, of this
docu docu series.

280
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:05,400
It's kind of saying that this is
a mistake, this is something

281
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,560
that's wrong.
And it's OK, though, because the

282
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,480
church is changing.
It's progressing.

283
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:15,720
It's progressing on these
issues.

284
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:20,880
And so, you know, one of the
things that really surprised me

285
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,040
was, you know, I think it was
John Belen in, in this docu

286
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,600
series describes that the Family
Proclamation doesn't say

287
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,360
anything explicitly forbidding
homosexuality.

288
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,720
It doesn't it?
It says that gender is eternal.

289
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,920
Well, he's saying the trans
people believe that too.

290
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:46,400
They just got the wrong bodies.
But you create a different God

291
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,160
at that point, right?
It's a different truth.

292
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,840
Right.
Well, well, the, the, the gospel

293
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,120
according to Mormonism was God
doesn't change, right?

294
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,360
And God doesn't make mistakes,
right, Right.

295
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:06,640
And so by saying that you're
born in the wrong body, you're

296
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,320
doing the exact opposite of what
Joseph Smith did, OK?

297
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:16,200
Joseph Smith took humans and
raised their intellect and their

298
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,840
ideas up to God, right?
That's what he was trying to get

299
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,080
done.
Well, what John Dolin says is

300
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,960
that no, we're just going to
drag God down, right?

301
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:38,640
I would rather ascend than have
a God that is changing is, you

302
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,720
know, can change his mind on a
whim.

303
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,960
That's not a God I wish to
follow because I don't know how

304
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,080
to get back to him at that point
because he changes so

305
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,200
frequently, right?
And that's a problem.

306
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:54,040
It is a problem, and it's a
problem that they bring up

307
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,080
themselves.
They point out how the LDS

308
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,920
Church for a while said children
can't be baptized right if their

309
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:07,280
parents are homosexual.
Although it's not, I don't know,

310
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,520
I'm not quite sure how that
works, but, but basically

311
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,760
they're saying that the church
made a mistake with that.

312
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,120
And I, I'll be honest, I do
think that's a mistake.

313
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:21,800
I don't think it's fair to hold
children to a different standard

314
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,600
just because of who their
parents are.

315
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,280
Right.
This is something that actually

316
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,880
it's funny because when they
first when the church first

317
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,920
introduced that in 2015, I
remember thinking, oh, OK,

318
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,440
that's a lot like
fundamentalists.

319
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,160
That's been the standard policy
for us fundamentalist for a long

320
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:37,880
time.
Yep.

321
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,680
As a fundamentalist, if if many
of my children want to get

322
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,200
baptized in the LDS church,
they've got they need permission

323
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,320
of the top authorities.
They've got to disavow their

324
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,320
parents beliefs in the things
that Brigham Young had taught,

325
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,640
things that Joseph Smith had
taught, in order for them to be

326
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,440
able to be brought back into the
fold.

327
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,120
You know, I remember when that
came out.

328
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:04,960
So I was, I was actually an
elders quorum when that first

329
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,560
hit.
I was an elders quorum

330
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:07,720
president.
Excuse me.

331
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,120
And here's what I remember from
that as I thought about it.

332
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,920
And it took me a minute because
it didn't sit right with me.

333
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,320
Again, this is one place I'm
going to back up the church, but

334
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:21,880
they've already went away from
it.

335
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,000
So whatever, right?
I'm used to that by now, right?

336
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,280
But in some ways, in my opinion,
it was merciful.

337
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,360
And let me explain why.
Because if you're now a 12 year

338
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:39,600
old kid, the church isn't saying
you can't come to church.

339
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,160
They're just saying we're not
going to baptize you until

340
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,240
you're an adult, right?
And why is that?

341
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,360
Well, now the church doesn't put
you in a weird place where you

342
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:53,160
got where you have to disavow
your parents lifestyle, right?

343
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,360
And so I saw it more as an act
of mercy, right, that we're

344
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,120
going to allow kids the
opportunity to grow up and

345
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:06,640
figure this out without putting
them in this weird place of who

346
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,600
do you love more, the church or
the gospel?

347
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,000
Now it's not that simple to say
who do you love more, but from a

348
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,680
12 year old's mind, that's what
it is.

349
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,640
And I felt like by the church
saying we're going to make you

350
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,120
wait till you're 18, I honestly
felt like, well, at least

351
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:25,400
they're not trying to turn kids
against their parents, no matter

352
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,080
what their parents are doing.
True, true.

353
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,720
And so that's I kind of, I was
like you.

354
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,480
It didn't sit right with me.
But the more I thought about,

355
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,680
the more I was like, that might
be kind of a tender mercy.

356
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,720
Right, but the church changed
their perspective.

357
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,720
They changed their mind on.
That in like, I don't know, 6

358
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,000
minutes, like it wasn't long.
It was like 6 months a year.

359
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,000
And it was like, oh, yeah.
But here's the interesting

360
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,720
thing, Russell.
I heard Russell M Nelson say

361
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,880
this personally.
At that time, he was the acting

362
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,520
president of the Quorum of the
12 Apostles, Russell M Nelson.

363
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,680
But they were having a stake or,
or a regional leadership

364
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,120
meeting, right.
So all the elders quorum

365
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,960
presidents, when all the Bishop
bricks that sort of thing, he

366
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,760
called it a revelation.
Yeah, right.

367
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,800
He said what they had got was a
revelation.

368
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,360
So if what you're saying is a
revelation, you impose this

369
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:28,480
policy through revelation, then
you take it away from revelation

370
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,720
like a month, like a year and a
half later.

371
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:32,920
Again, that's not a God I want
to serve.

372
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,360
That is a God that is fickle.
It creates A mistrust,

373
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,600
absolutely.
And this docu series is grabbing

374
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,880
onto that idea.
Yep, that will look at the

375
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,800
changes.
So their second, you know, the

376
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:51,680
second they do is also LGBTQ
issues, but the third one they

377
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,120
get into is blacks in the
priesthood.

378
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,160
And we, we've had this
discussion.

379
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,720
We've I've, I've been on this
podcast debating Jacob Vidrine

380
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,320
on this issue.
I, I, and I still stand by my

381
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,400
stance on that.
I think that the priesthood ban

382
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,800
was a mistake, right, right.
But that was the policy.

383
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,000
The doctrines related to that
were not coming from even

384
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,720
Brigham Young.
The doctrines associated with

385
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,040
that this idea that.
Fence sitters.

386
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,680
Fence sitters, all that, that
these are coming from individual

387
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,920
members having their own
inspiration on it.

388
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,920
And it's based off of people,
proponents of the priesthood

389
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,320
band sharing stuff that they
claim Joseph Smith had taught,

390
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,080
which I don't believe is
accurate, Right, Right.

391
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:41,760
So Brigham Young himself wasn't
really advocating one way or the

392
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,640
other on this issue.
He was.

393
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:50,320
He had his stance on this and he
was wrong, but he didn't present

394
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,800
it as a revelation at that point
out in the debate.

395
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,400
He presents this as if you've
never heard this before, you're

396
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,840
hearing it from me.
He's taken ownership and

397
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,080
responsibility of that policy
decision based on the

398
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,960
information that he had and his
own life experience.

399
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,400
And I think that was a mistake.
But it wasn't until the

400
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:16,720
manifesto that this paradigm
that the Church was infallible.

401
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:19,240
Right.
Really comes into play.

402
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,360
Yep.
Prior to that, and this is

403
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:27,160
something that just blows my
mind because Joseph Smith

404
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:33,000
himself published Revelations of
God chastising him for screwing

405
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,320
up.
It is all over Doctrine and

406
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,600
Covenants.
Yeah, if you want to be a cult

407
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,480
leader, that's probably not the
direction you want to take it,

408
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,400
getting your rear end handed to
you over and over in Scripture,

409
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,920
right.
Like people forget that.

410
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,840
That's a huge thing for me when
I look at the Doctrine and

411
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,840
Covenants is that, and, and
pardon the expression, Joseph

412
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,240
gets his butt handed to him a
lot throughout that book of

413
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,160
Scripture and that if, if you're
looking to be infallible, that's

414
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,600
not something you want to write
down.

415
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,200
Right.
It's not something that Joseph

416
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,000
Smith claimed.
It's not something that Brigham

417
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,080
Young claimed.
This doesn't show up until the

418
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,680
manifesto.
And all of a sudden now it's,

419
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,080
well, the church leaders can't
lead you astray.

420
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,960
And that becomes a standard
doctrine throughout the church.

421
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:32,440
But that's a culture and an idea
that is not native to the

422
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,840
Restoration.
It's not native to Mormonism.

423
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,680
It's something that gets
injected in, right.

424
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,680
And so these guys are
capitalizing that.

425
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,280
They're capitalizing the fact
that they're using the, the,

426
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:49,400
the, the, the, the priesthood
issue as a model to show that,

427
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,040
hey, look, the church will
change.

428
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,240
The church.
Can't the church is progressing.

429
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:02,640
It's in a process of of growing
and you know, on that one, maybe

430
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,480
it really was, but it's only
doing that because of it set

431
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,520
itself up with the manifesto of
claiming this prophetic

432
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:18,200
infallibility.
And so they're latching on to

433
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:24,160
that as an excuse for what we're
seeing with LGBTQ issue high

434
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,600
plus issues.
Gotcha.

435
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:33,560
And these are now the excuses
for why we can expect the church

436
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,560
to change on these issues.
We can expect the church to open

437
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:47,560
its doors to the members
interest in and and demands and

438
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,320
when things are wrong.
Absolutely.

439
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,040
I believe that there is a room
for for that kind of correction.

440
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,720
And I think that we as as
fundamentalists have looked at

441
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,040
that issue specifically, right?
And we've tried to address it.

442
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,080
But I don't think that just
because Brigham was wrong on

443
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,880
that, we throw out everything
that everything that Brigham

444
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,240
taught.
No.

445
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,640
We don't throw out everything
Joseph Smith taught.

446
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,760
And their next video goes into
polygamy.

447
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,120
And this one was, from a
fundamentalist perspective, the

448
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:25,000
hardest to watch.
Oh, you mean they weren't for

449
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,040
it?
No.

450
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,200
Oh, I was shocked.
Apparently it's it's it's

451
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:30,880
abusive.
This is a.

452
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,880
Horrible, horrible thing that
Joseph Smith had done.

453
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,760
Abusive.
And it's proof that Joseph Smith

454
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,000
as a man was immoral.
Oh, OK.

455
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:49,000
Or at the very least, it was a
mistake how it got implemented.

456
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,440
They, they put forth this, you
know, this ceiling man as well.

457
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,280
And there's an aspect to that,
right of this, this family

458
00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,520
dynasty.
Sure.

459
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,920
But I don't believe that it was
only intended to be some sort of

460
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,120
a spiritual making us all
brothers and sisters.

461
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,440
No, that was an aspect of it.
But it's also a a true

462
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:14,720
principle.
Yep.

463
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,720
And so they present Joseph Smith
again, as you know, we should

464
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,560
accept him because he did good
things, but he was flawed.

465
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,280
And we get to basically we get
to pick and choose what his

466
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:33,080
mistakes work.
And so polygamy is proof

467
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:39,200
basically that Joseph Smith got
stuff wrong, that it stayed in

468
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,760
the church and it was wrong and,
and it, and it got corrected.

469
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,680
So again, it's, it's this
deconstruction of and this

470
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,200
reinvention of Mormonism that,
that they're kind of pushing and

471
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,000
presenting here.
They do a video on, on the

472
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,840
church being a high demand
religion.

473
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,160
That's kind of, you know, woke
speak.

474
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,720
Yeah, that whole high, high
demand religion thing, it's

475
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,120
interesting, right?
Because they say it like it's a

476
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,320
bad thing, right?
I'm like, look, if the gospel

477
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:18,000
says if the gospel does what the
gospel says it will do, it

478
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,480
better be high demand.
Right.

479
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:26,560
I don't want anyone attaining to
that level to godhood who's just

480
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,840
going to church on Sunday and
mailing it in the rest of the

481
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,720
week.
I don't think God wants that

482
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,400
either.
So rather than argue with them,

483
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,160
I agree it is a high demand
religion.

484
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,680
Well, I think it's a high demand
religion because as as flawed

485
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,840
human beings, right, we all need
a lot of work.

486
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,920
Yeah.
And we only get that work done

487
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:56,240
by recognizing God's revelations
and conforming our lives 100% to

488
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,240
God and the systems, the, the,
the organization, the, the, the

489
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,640
programs of the church.
I actually have a lot of respect

490
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,640
for these things.
These things have done a great

491
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:15,680
job at bringing, elevating us to
a higher standard and helping us

492
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,640
deal with our, our flaws and our
weaknesses, sticking those

493
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,280
things on your face and giving
us opportunities to learn and

494
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,640
grow 100%.
So it is a, it is a high, high

495
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,320
demand religion.
And, you know, they kind of

496
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:35,960
recognize that, but with this
idea that we can change the

497
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,440
things we don't like.
Cafeteria Mormonism.

498
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,200
So, yeah, you know, you have
John de Linda on there talking

499
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,120
about how he does, You know,
even now that he's out of the

500
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,160
church, he's talking about how
he still keeps the Word of

501
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:55,480
wisdom.
OK and OK.

502
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,600
Yeah.
Because sacrifice is a good

503
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,760
thing.
And I my perspective on that is

504
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,920
sacrifice is a good thing if
it's a sacrifice that has been

505
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,880
asked of the Lord.
Right.

506
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,280
When we just pick and choose
what we're willing to sacrifice,

507
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,800
we're limiting ourselves, we're
limiting our potential growth,

508
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,560
we're limiting the healing that
we can receive through the

509
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,440
atonement when we when we're the
one setting that standard.

510
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,920
Absolutely.
You know, there was a reason the

511
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,520
Lord said that when you
sacrificed an animal, it had to

512
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,520
be the best, right?
Without blemish.

513
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,480
It wasn't only because it was a
symbolism of Christ, although

514
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,160
that is massively important.
It's real importance.

515
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:38,600
Or I shouldn't say it's real
importance.

516
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,640
One of the other things that
made it important, that's the

517
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,840
animal that fetched the most
money at market, right?

518
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,840
You're going to feel that, yeah.
You're going to feel that, but

519
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,480
that was something that the Lord
was asking the children of

520
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,920
Israel at that time. 100%.
And it wasn't up to them to

521
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,640
choose what sacrifices they were
willing to make and which ones

522
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,400
they weren't.
And I just got.

523
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,840
Got out of hand with some of the
Pharisitical stuff and Christ

524
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:14,040
had to clarify some of that.
But nonetheless, we can't expect

525
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,280
to really achieve our true
potentials in this life if we're

526
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,880
not willing to accept God's
truth.

527
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,760
We're going to live our truth.
We're we're limiting our

528
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,600
potential and ultimately God's
potential is first to have joy

529
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:31,560
and.
We're.

530
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:37,440
Not going to find joy in
believing a Book of Mormon that

531
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,600
is fictional but still an
inspiring book.

532
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,280
We're not going to find joy in
living according to the values

533
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,840
and standards of the world when
it comes to LGBTQ issues.

534
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:55,200
We're not going to find the joy
that God would have for us if we

535
00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,760
reject what God has told us
about the standard.

536
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,000
What is the requirement for
entering into the highest degree

537
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,120
of exaltation?
It's right there in section 132.

538
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,679
And if we're not willing to do
the works of Abraham, then how

539
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:14,600
do we expect to to receive the
blessings that Abraham received?

540
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,239
100%.
So their last section is on

541
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,120
personal revelation.
And basically it is this idea

542
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:28,159
that the church is wrong.
It's kind of backwards, has

543
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:30,120
these backwards conservative
values.

544
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,520
They present this idea that the
leadership isn't, you know, I

545
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,679
did on this issue.
They're not wrong.

546
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,880
I don't know.
I can't say, right?

547
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,679
I don't.
I don't meet with these men and

548
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:48,800
talk with them, but the
messaging is very inconsistent.

549
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,880
I know for a fact they're not
united.

550
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,480
Right.
And therefore, because they're

551
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,400
not united, the ultimate message
of the docu series is, you know

552
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,840
what, just sort of believe
whatever you want.

553
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,280
Right.
And stick around and make that

554
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:15,200
the new norm.
So from a.

555
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:16,880
They they showed you the
playbook.

556
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,880
They show you the playbook from
a, from a philosophical thank

557
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,560
you.
This is what you call modern

558
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,120
progressivism.
And it's kind of this idea that

559
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,120
as we learn more, as cultures
change, that it's we're getting

560
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,640
better and better and better and
better, That if you look at

561
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,880
technology, it's getting better
and better and better.

562
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,720
Mankind is getting better and
better.

563
00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:45,680
But we're evolving.
We're learning and we're

564
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:52,320
evolving.
And it kind of relegates truth

565
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,400
to this sort of subjective
position.

566
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,840
Right.
Where whatever the the modern

567
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,960
standards are, those must be
correct.

568
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:07,840
And you, you have you have a,
what's his name?

569
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,800
Harry Reid in the series before
he died.

570
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,720
I mean, I guess this has been
long in the making.

571
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,080
Six years if I remember
correctly.

572
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,440
But you have Harry Reid on here,
and he's talking about how

573
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,280
wonderful it is that things keep
getting better and better and

574
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:29,560
better in the church as it
becomes more and more

575
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,360
progressive, as it becomes more
and more united with the world,

576
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,880
that the church is getting
carried and lifted up.

577
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,440
You know, can I interject
something here real quick?

578
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,320
You know who Dietrich Bonhoeffer
is, right?

579
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:48,960
Bonhoeffer.
No.

580
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:55,080
So Bonhoeffer was a pastor
during the takeover of the Nazis

581
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,240
in Germany.
He was the guy who said not to

582
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:05,120
speak is to speak, not to act is
to act guys in the concentration

583
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,320
camp because he refuses to go
over the rest the Cliff with the

584
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:14,200
rest of the of Germany.
But throughout his book, he

585
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,600
makes a couple of points that
are really valid.

586
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,840
And I read it and then I read a
few other things.

587
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,960
And what I came to is that
religion, if you look at society

588
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,200
as a body, as a person, religion
is Jiminy Cricket from

589
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,400
Pinocchio, right?
He's telling you don't do that,

590
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,440
don't do that.
Bad things happen when you do

591
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,720
that.
Well, when religion gets Co

592
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:46,480
opted by society at large, who
gets to critique the society?

593
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,160
There is massive danger when the
church does.

594
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,080
And when I say the church, I'm
not talking just about the LDS

595
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,000
church.
I'm talking about every

596
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,800
denomination because they're all
doing it to one level or

597
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,640
another, right?
This thing of playing to

598
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:08,360
society, you know, they're no
longer saying things like you

599
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,400
need to be, you need to improve,
you need to grow closer to

600
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,960
Christ, you need to abandon your
sin.

601
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,240
They're saying, you know what,
despite your sin, Jesus still

602
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:21,400
loves you.
And that's true, that's true.

603
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,280
But that's not what Jesus wants
for you, right?

604
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,400
Jesus didn't tell the woman
taking in adultery, you know

605
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,640
it's OK.
I'm a feminist too, and I get

606
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,600
what you're doing.
No, what does he tell her?

607
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,600
Your sins are forgiven.
Go thy way and sin no more.

608
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,120
So it's not like Jesus is saying
it's OK if you sin.

609
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,920
I'm happy when you say it's OK.
What he's saying is there's a

610
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,720
better way, and he's trying to
illuminate that, taking it back

611
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:58,960
to this idea of the church
syncing up with society.

612
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,720
You're not doing your job right.
You if you're trying to be a

613
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:08,200
watchman on the tower and say
danger approaches, you will fall

614
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,520
asleep on that job if you try to
join that enemy that's coming to

615
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,080
rage your.
Gates, right?

616
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,840
So, and for me personally, so
technological advancements are

617
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:26,360
amazing and I work in tech, but
there's a price.

618
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,920
There is such a price.
And I don't know if I've

619
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,200
mentioned this on the podcast,
there's a time when I had the

620
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:36,320
opportunity to work a old school
printing press that was set up

621
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,680
in in Provo, UT, where they had,
they had, they had type set a

622
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,880
page from the Book of Mormon.
And it was like the 4th of July.

623
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,640
It was when they call Pioneer
Day.

624
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,920
I can't remember exactly what it
was, but they were open, the

625
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,440
museum was open and they were
looking for volunteers.

626
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,600
And I had volunteered.
And so I'm running this press

627
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,000
for the Book of Mormon and it
was exhausting work.

628
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,240
I bet it was very labor
intensive.

629
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:10,520
And I it really brought to mind
the sacrifices that had to be

630
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,920
made to get that original Book
of Mormon printed, the

631
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,160
sacrifices people had to make to
to be able to buy a copy.

632
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,920
Of the Book of Mormont.
I mean, we have printing presses

633
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,480
back then, but it was still no
small thing to to buy a book.

634
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,440
Yeah, no, it was huge.
These were these were serious

635
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,280
investments.
There's a lot of time and labor

636
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,040
that goes into that.
And I think that with that

637
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,440
sacrifice comes an appreciation.
Yep.

638
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,640
And I look at today and I can
pull up the Book of Mormon on my

639
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,360
phone.
I can pull up.

640
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,040
I mean, you go to Gutenberg dot
you want Gutenberg.

641
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,040
Dot org I believe.
Yep, there are fantastic.

642
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,480
I mean the the greatest books in
the history of civilization are

643
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:55,080
there available.
The people in the in the 17118

644
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,640
would have died for access.
Absolutely.

645
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,800
Something like that.
And today we have all this

646
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,840
because of technology, But it it
loses some of its meaning, yeah,

647
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,680
because there's no sacrifice
involved.

648
00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:10,000
It's just available for free.
You know, that's so true.

649
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,600
Thomas Paine said.
Something very similar to that,

650
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,080
which was heaven knows best how
to fix a price to her goods,

651
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,040
right?
And sometimes I think we've got

652
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,640
it a little too easy when it
comes to the gospel, right?

653
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:33,600
Look, I don't, I don't want the
days of 1830, whatever Missouri

654
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,040
to come back, right?
But I do think we should

655
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,760
struggle for our faith from time
to time.

656
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,840
I think Paul's clear on that
when he says, you know, work out

657
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,600
your own salvation with fear and
trembling before the Lord,

658
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,200
right?
We need to struggle.

659
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,840
Yeah, we're not promised an easy
right.

660
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:55,440
No, no.
And so things are, technology is

661
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,920
getting better, but are things
getting better?

662
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,040
I I look at the world today and
I think it's a disaster.

663
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,320
Yeah.
We look at marriage rates, even

664
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,840
just fertility rates.
We talked about that last time a

665
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:11,040
little bit.
Right.

666
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,920
Things are Western civilization
is starting.

667
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,440
To fall apart right now, 100%.
It's kind of gone off the rails

668
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,600
and like you were saying, one of
those checks and balances to to

669
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:29,600
protect us is religion.
It's God's word saying these are

670
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,440
the standards, this is the
truth.

671
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:36,680
And when as a society we conform
to those truths, we do grow, we

672
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,720
do progress.
I'm not anti progressive.

673
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:43,640
I believe in the principle of
progression, but I don't believe

674
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,480
this is how we get there.
Right.

675
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,840
This is actually something more
along the lines of what I would

676
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,280
call rules for radicals if.
Saul Alinsky?

677
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,600
Yep, dedicate.
You remember who he dedicated

678
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:57,200
the book to?
Who?

679
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,520
Did he dedicated to?
Lucifer, the first radical who

680
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,960
at least won his own Kingdom.
Her Saul Alinsky rules for

681
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,800
radicals, Yeah.
Right, but I want to go over

682
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,400
some of these points from most
radicals 'cause this is the game

683
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,880
plan of this docu.
Yeah.

684
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,240
So first one of his main points,
expertise, right?

685
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:25,280
We have all of these experts in
this docu series telling us what

686
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,480
is what, right?
These people aren't just your

687
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,400
run-of-the-mill average Joe.
So these are people who are

688
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,080
considered experts.
Patrick Mason.

689
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,320
Who, if I'm not mistaken, you
know what, let me just double

690
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,760
check that before I go here.
But I think he is a current

691
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,480
church historian.
Let me just double check.

692
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:59,240
Patrick Q Mason's an American
historian specializing in Latter

693
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:01,320
Day St. in the Latter Day St.
movement.

694
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,520
Since 20/19 he has held the
Leonard J Arrington Chair of

695
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,400
Mormon History and Culture at
Utah State University.

696
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,760
So maybe he doesn't work for the
church, but he's holding the

697
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,440
same seat Arrington held, right?
Which means that anything he

698
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:23,960
says is going to carry a
gravitas that not many other

699
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,960
people enjoy within warming
them.

700
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,560
Right.
And the experts, you know, you

701
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,560
have these PhDs, you have all
the, you know, PhD in feminism,

702
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,920
you have these people that are
basically professionals.

703
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,160
Yes.
Explaining, oh, the damage that

704
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,840
the the church's stance on LGBTQ
issues, they're it's hurting

705
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,760
people.
It's this is destroying lives

706
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,960
according to them that these are
these are the experts bring in

707
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,560
the experts to provide
authority, at least a perceived

708
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,120
authority.
A. 100%.

709
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:03,360
You also have this idea of power
and perception, and that the

710
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,000
rules Radical teaches you that
you need to convince your

711
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,840
opponents that you have power.
Right.

712
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:14,240
Well, within the LDS Church, a
lot of these people do hold a

713
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:15,760
lot of power.
Yep.

714
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,040
And they're saying this is how
it is.

715
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,320
They've got their experts saying
this is how it is.

716
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:26,600
And they're expecting the the
church to conform to these

717
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,160
expert opinions because not
because they have the word of

718
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:35,240
God on their side, but because
they have convinced people,

719
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:37,600
they've convinced the
membership.

720
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:40,320
They, because they brought in
their experts, They're telling

721
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,000
us these are, this is where
things are really at.

722
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,600
This is where things have to go
or the religion's going to get

723
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:53,280
lost. 100%.
You have this idea of pointing

724
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,600
out and attacking hypocrisy and
inconsistencies.

725
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:06,080
There's some truth to that.
But in reality, see, this is a

726
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,840
cultural issue, I think in the
LDS Church, I was going to get

727
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,600
this a little bit more later,
but there's kind of this idea

728
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:19,600
that we're we've, if you're a
good member of the church,

729
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,520
you've never screwed up, you've
never made a mistake.

730
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,640
And, and I, I experienced this a
lot when I was living in Utah.

731
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,800
Everybody in the church is
wearing kind of a mask and

732
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:34,720
they're not struggling with
anything.

733
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,400
They never made it.
They've never slipped up.

734
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,120
And that's just not, that's not
true.

735
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,600
That's not what any of us are
really experiencing.

736
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,440
And we kind of in that culture,
you have this feeling like,

737
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,440
well, Gee, if I'm if I'm
struggling with something,

738
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,800
nobody else seems to be.
It's just me.

739
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,800
It's just me.
So I better just kind of put on

740
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,640
a mask.
Yep, the.

741
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,800
Problem with that is it's really
easy to attack that kind of

742
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:08,760
hypocrisy and dishonesty. 100%.
You know, I, I try to be honest

743
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,240
with my children.
I'm not a perfect parent.

744
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,760
And when I make mistakes as a
parent, I talk to my kids about

745
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,520
it and I let them know that
wasn't that wasn't ideal.

746
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,760
That was not me being my best
self, right?

747
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,200
Because I don't want my children
to grow up with this expectation

748
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,000
that I'm some sort of a, a
perfect father because I'm not.

749
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,680
And if they have this idea that
I'm this this perfect father, at

750
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,280
some point when they're
teenagers, they're going to see

751
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,400
right through that.
Sure.

752
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:46,080
And that suddenly becomes an
excuse to reject everything that

753
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,200
that I have to offer.
Yep.

754
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,960
Including my testimony of the
gospel, including my testimony

755
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:53,640
of the restoration.
And I don't want that.

756
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,040
I want my children to understand
that I'm a I'm a working through

757
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,960
this just like everybody else,
just like they will be.

758
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:11,000
Yeah, it's important, right?
Because all of us, no matter who

759
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,320
we are, and even if your parents
says it, you do look at your

760
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,080
parents like they got their crap
together, right.

761
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,960
And it's only once you become an
adult and you start doing the

762
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:24,160
things that they did that you
go, oh, they don't.

763
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,520
Yeah, OK.
But I but it does make you have

764
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,520
more compassion for your
parents, right?

765
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:31,040
Yeah.
Because all of a sudden you're

766
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,360
like, oh, I get it.
I was a little bonehead.

767
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,120
Yeah, I was a little bonehead.
And yeah, I get it.

768
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,040
I tested mom and dad and and
things went S right.

769
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,880
So no, it it works both ways I
think on that.

770
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:48,080
Yeah, but it's a it's a point of
attack.

771
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,920
Hypocrisy is a point of attack.
I think that's why Christ in his

772
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,240
own ministry calls it out so
hard, harshly, right?

773
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,080
It's not the sinners that he's
condemning.

774
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:02,520
It's those who wear a mask of
perfection.

775
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,280
The hypocrites.
The hypocrites.

776
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,120
Yep.
And this is a legitimate issue

777
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,360
in the LDS church when you have
a doctrine that your leaders are

778
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:13,760
infallible.
Right.

779
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,160
You can't get around that.
No.

780
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,720
So you have, you have that, you
have ridicule.

781
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,120
And that's exactly what they do
in the docu series.

782
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,920
They they ridicule Joseph Smith
for his plural marriage.

783
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,360
They're ridiculing Brigham Young
over getting, you know, the on

784
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:39,640
his opinion on this priesthood
ban, and they're using that to

785
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:51,200
basically reject the truths that
might be behind those things.

786
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:52,600
Right.
Right.

787
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,240
And then when you ridicule it.
You're you're, you're.

788
00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:05,320
Attacking the just not just the
person, but basically you're,

789
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:11,840
you're attacking the authority.
If you ridicule something, it it

790
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,280
automatically takes a place of
something that's not too

791
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:15,480
serious.
Right.

792
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,680
So in the temple, right, we make
a part of the explanation of the

793
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:24,760
law of the gospel includes this
thing about not evil Speaking of

794
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,720
the Lord's anointed, right?
I don't think that means you

795
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:30,080
can't disagree.
Right.

796
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,760
But what it's warning against is
an attitude of ridicule.

797
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:41,760
Yes, not just hey, I disagree,
but no, I need to mock you and

798
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:48,360
tear you down. 100%.
And you know, focusing at local

799
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:53,400
gradual change.
I, I, I'll be honest, I see this

800
00:50:53,400 --> 00:51:03,080
docu series as a very effective
implementation of rules for

801
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,280
radicals and it's, it seems to
be working in the LDS church.

802
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:19,480
I'm starting to see a change in
culture and ultimately there is

803
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:25,160
this idea in Mormonism that so
why does the, why do revelations

804
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,240
from God need to be ratified by
the church?

805
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:31,680
Is it because the Church is
going to determine the

806
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,400
truthfulness of it?
No, it's just an opportunity for

807
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,400
the church to either accept or
reject it.

808
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,600
Right.
And apparently God's OK letting

809
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:46,040
the church reject if that.
If the body of the church is

810
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,160
choosing to reject God's truth,
God's not going to force it upon

811
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,880
them.
Right, right.

812
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,400
He might be fine with letting us
choose that, but he's also fine

813
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,720
with us reaping the benefits of
that decision.

814
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:03,840
Right.
That doesn't mean there's not

815
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,240
consequences.
Right.

816
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,360
I absolutely believe it's
possible for the church to

817
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,480
reject the fullness of the
gospel.

818
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,200
Oh, did did they?
Did they do?

819
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,200
I didn't realize.
Oh, OK.

820
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,360
Right.
You mean like a revelation that

821
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,280
may have been had in, I don't
know, 1886?

822
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,400
Right.
OK, just check.

823
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:29,400
I mean, if you believe that John
Taylor was actually a prophet,

824
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:34,760
if you believe that he received
revelations from God like I do,

825
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,240
then how do you explain what the
church is today?

826
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:41,480
Because I still believe that the
LDS Church is God's church.

827
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:46,000
Sure, me too.
But I look at the body of

828
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,120
believers and I look at the
things that they're believing

829
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,320
and the standards that they want
to uphold, and I'm seeing a

830
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,240
shift.
You know, this is interesting.

831
00:52:57,240 --> 00:53:00,440
I had this conversation with a,
with a, with a friend of mine,

832
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,760
and he had said, how can you
still believe it's the Lord's

833
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,680
church when it's gone so far
astray?

834
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:12,200
And I said, say you have a kid,
that kid goes astray.

835
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,800
Do you ever stop claiming him,
right?

836
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,040
No, you, you continue to work
with him, right?

837
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,560
And I do think the Lord is still
working with the LDS church, but

838
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,160
not in the way people might
think, right?

839
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,760
I think he's working with them
in terms of, I'm going to give

840
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:33,080
you what you want and I'm going
to determine what you want by

841
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,160
your actions, right?
You want to reject revelation,

842
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,080
OK, There is a place for that,
right?

843
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,920
Right.
And, and I think that's that's

844
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:47,240
kind of how I view the LDS
church is a very wayward child

845
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:48,760
of God.
Right.

846
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,720
And because there is this
principle where God gives the

847
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:59,200
church agency, I think that what
we're seeing is starting to

848
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:04,480
happen right now is a
continuation of what happened

849
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:09,840
back in John Taylor's day.
We have this first

850
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:15,800
fundamentalist movement start up
because you have a body of

851
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:20,040
believers, members of the
church, that are convicted in

852
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,440
the revelations.
They have a testimony of the

853
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,800
doctrines, and they're not
willing to give them up, even if

854
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,280
the church as a body rejects
them.

855
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,480
Right.
And what we found in that first,

856
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,280
that first wave of
fundamentalism, is we found the

857
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:44,720
church went to war against those
who held on to the standards of

858
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:49,000
truth.
And I think, I think that could

859
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:51,320
happen again.
I think we're starting to see

860
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,120
it.
I, I was going to say, I think

861
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,840
we're there, right?
I think we're on the if, if the

862
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,640
event is like a day, we're at
the very beginning of Daybreak,

863
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,960
right?
And it will get, it will get

864
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,160
more pronounced as time goes
along.

865
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,840
But make no mistake, the seasons
have changed.

866
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:10,520
It's here, right?
Right.

867
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,680
And look, I just got off a
podcast last week talking about

868
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:16,840
Taylor Smith, about some of the
uglier things that have

869
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,480
happened, right?
I, we have now the

870
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,280
communications director, I don't
know if he's the director, don't

871
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,160
quote me on that, but he's one
of the communications guys, at

872
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:32,240
least for the LDS Church, who is
an open advocate for the

873
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:36,480
transgender movement and the
LGBTQIA plus movement, right?

874
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,800
We have all these signals now,
right?

875
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,680
I think it goes back even
farther than we know.

876
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,360
I think that talk that that
elder gave, that, excuse me,

877
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,520
that 70 gave at general
conference where he said

878
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,640
prophetic counsel doesn't hold
its value like vintage comic

879
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,440
books do.
And you need to just focus on

880
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,120
the living guy.
What they're telling you there,

881
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:05,600
in my opinion, is get ready.
Things are changing and you need

882
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,240
to get in line and you need to
get your foot, your your toe on

883
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:13,040
the line because things are
changing.

884
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:15,800
I can't remember whose podcast
it was on.

885
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:22,240
It was a kind of a pro Mormon or
pro LDS podcast, but this guy

886
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:25,640
said the same thing.
This stuff is changing again.

887
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,520
Get ready.
It's all going to change.

888
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:35,520
And so maybe it's a good change.
Maybe it's a change back towards

889
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:40,160
towards old school Mormonism,
but I think what we're going to

890
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,720
see is a far more progressive
Mormonism now going forward,

891
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,280
right?
Well, for the founders of

892
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,520
fundamentalism, they had to
choose.

893
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,040
The Church would not allow them
to stay and disagree.

894
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,280
Right.
They were cut off, they were

895
00:56:56,280 --> 00:57:01,480
persecuted, they were driven
from the Church and they kept

896
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:07,840
and preserved these fundamental
doctrines.

897
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,400
They kept and preserved these
fundamental ordinances, these

898
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:16,640
principles.
And I think we're coming to a

899
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,720
point where we're we're seeing a
a new wave of fundamentalists.

900
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:25,960
We are.
And just like last time, see the

901
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:30,080
rules for radicals says that you
can subvert the organization.

902
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:36,400
You can be pro LGBTQI plus and
be a part of this and you can

903
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,360
advocate it for it.
You can push it.

904
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,160
And I think what we're going to
find here real soon is that

905
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,520
those who are defending the
traditional family, those that

906
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:51,240
are defending these, these these
doctrines of eternal marriage

907
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,600
between a man and a woman, these
are going to be the new enemies.

908
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,120
These are going to be the people
that aren't going to be allowed.

909
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:04,000
Right.
And even as the churches right

910
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:09,200
now today, I have concerns.
You know, you had Taylor on last

911
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:13,920
episode and he was talking about
his experiences with with his

912
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,160
with his Bishop and state
president, right, that

913
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:23,480
ultimately made it untenable for
him to stay in the LDS faith as

914
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,000
an organization.
And we're seeing we're seeing

915
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,600
more and more of this.
I understand that it's OK to

916
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,720
give, it's OK for people to
disagree, but when the

917
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:40,280
organization will allow for this
LGBTQ this, this progressive

918
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,800
reinvention of Mormonism, that's
allowed, that's allowed to stay.

919
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,400
Right.
But the traditional values,

920
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,400
suddenly they're not going to be
allowed to stay.

921
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:56,640
If you have children in the LDS
Church, you might have issues

922
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:01,080
and concerns about what your
children are being taught at

923
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,880
church. 100%.
What are the messages that your

924
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:09,240
children are receiving that
might be a a a reason that makes

925
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,640
this untenable anymore?
Yep.

926
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,240
And I think that's a legitimate
concern.

927
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,680
Oh, it's a very legitimate.
Concern you had, was it named

928
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:19,120
Braxton?
Braxton.

929
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:19,880
Yep.
Yeah.

930
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:25,480
Again, driven out of the church
for his testimony of Adam.

931
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:28,360
God.
Dude, he wasn't even teaching it

932
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,320
right.
It's not like he was trying to

933
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,600
gain a following, right?
He talked to a buddy and said I

934
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:40,480
think there's something to this
and the very act of believing it

935
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,240
was enough to get him booted,
right?

936
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:50,040
And I find it to be careful
because I don't want to edit

937
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:55,840
later.
I find it the the pinnacle of

938
00:59:55,840 --> 01:00:00,480
hypocrisy that his state
president says you're going to

939
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,720
go to jail because you're going
to marry an underage bride.

940
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,880
Well, guess what?
I've ran the numbers.

941
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,680
And while certainly Warren
Jeffs, Jeffs did a number on

942
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:16,520
people, there was far more abuse
in the LDS Church than there is

943
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:20,800
in fundamentalism.
Right, and and.

944
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,920
Goes back to that when, where,
where are your children going to

945
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,920
be safe?
Yeah, where, what, what do you

946
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:28,520
do, right?
What do you do?

947
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,560
And and this is the the question
of the day.

948
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:38,920
It is, and so in my own own
journey, right, I was born and

949
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,360
raised in the church, kind of a
bit of a Jack foreman, but but

950
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,320
I, I served a mission and I
became very converted.

951
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,520
I was like, I was one of those
guys going to the temple every

952
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:49,600
week.
I was holding callings.

953
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,480
I was the, the church was
everything, everything.

954
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,440
I, I dedicated my life to
serving the church.

955
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:03,560
And ultimately, the church is
the one that said I'm not

956
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:11,760
welcome.
That protecting pedophiles is

957
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:17,320
more important than protecting
children, that giving a voice to

958
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:21,840
our LGBTQI plus brothers and
sisters is more important than

959
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,680
giving voice to the doctrine of
family.

960
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,640
And it puts people in a in a
place.

961
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:35,800
It put me in a place where I had
I had to get out.

962
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,760
Yeah.
If, if I hadn't gotten out, I

963
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:43,560
would have been driven out.
And that was a very, very

964
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:46,720
difficult time in my life.
And I'll be honest, I, I did not

965
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:50,840
just go from the true believing
Mormon to a fundamentalist in,

966
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,280
in a single step.
No, it was a very, very hard

967
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,760
process.
And I'll be honest, my, my faith

968
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:02,520
was very much deconstructed.
It really kind of for.

969
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,040
So for me, one of the big things
is I was always a, a, a big, big

970
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:11,000
fan of, of, of Bruce R Mcconkey.
Me too.

971
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:15,560
He was like a hero growing up
and my time on my mission.

972
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:19,680
I read his floats and I just I
just love Broussard Mcconkey and

973
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:22,240
I had read well, I can't
remember exactly what it he did

974
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:29,360
this this lecture for the for
BYU and I read this when I was

975
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,880
still in the LDS church and I
just accepted it because.

976
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,440
Broussard said it this is.
Broussard talking right?

977
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:39,400
And he says that this Adam God
thing, Brigham never really

978
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,080
taught it.
These people are taking him out

979
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:43,680
of context.
Brigham never taught it.

980
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:52,160
Well, I've read the Journal of
Discourses and I found out that

981
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:54,880
Prusar Mcconkey lied to me.
Yep.

982
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:59,400
He might have had good
intentions and motives, but I

983
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,680
felt very betrayed.
Right.

984
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,240
Very betrayed by somebody that I
looked up to and respected.

985
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:09,680
100%.
And it got me questioning

986
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:11,280
everything.
Yep.

987
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,200
And for a while I went to a very
dark place where I started

988
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:16,760
thinking maybe none of this is
true.

989
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:24,360
Maybe this whole thing is sod
and I had to re question

990
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,440
everything.
This this faith deconstruction.

991
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:28,560
And I'm seeing people online
right now.

992
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:31,040
Doing the same thing.
Doing the same thing.

993
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:36,600
They're being labeled as Pimos.
Yep, physically and mentally

994
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:41,080
out.
Yeah, and my heart goes out to

995
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:44,000
these people because I
understand what they're going

996
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:44,960
through.
I have been through that

997
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:47,640
process.
Any fundamentalist that comes

998
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:53,200
out of the LDS church, unless
it's like a quick ending, we all

999
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,760
go through that.
That's a normal stage, right,

1000
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,920
Where you're just, oh, I
remember those days.

1001
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:02,920
They were, they were madding,
right?

1002
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:07,400
Because you know differently and
you find yourself getting mad,

1003
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:09,800
right?
And you're like have to check

1004
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:11,560
yourself.
Well, it's not their fault.

1005
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:16,240
They don't know, right?
And it dude, my, I'm, I'm with

1006
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:17,800
you.
My heart goes out to him because

1007
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:23,200
it takes a lot out of a person.
Yeah, it took a lot out of me.

1008
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:26,600
And ultimately it was my
testimony of the Book of Mormon

1009
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,240
that I could never fully
deconstruct.

1010
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:34,600
Right when it got down to is the
Book of Mormon true?

1011
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,600
Well, I, I I'd look at it, I'd
read it, I'd study it again, and

1012
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,040
I could still feel the spirit
testifying the truthfulness of

1013
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:44,480
the Book of Mormon.
Right.

1014
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,240
And I thought, well, how can the
Book of Mormon be true if if the

1015
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,560
church is not?
Right.

1016
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,560
If Bruce R Mcconkey's lying to
me, how can the Book of Mormon

1017
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:57,120
be true?
Right.

1018
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:02,440
And I'll be honest, I think that
a faith deconstruction journey

1019
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:05,200
is a prerequisite for true
faith.

1020
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:07,600
Sure.
I think this is something

1021
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:11,480
everybody has to go through at
some point. 100% I agree.

1022
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:16,720
If you're just holding on to a
testimony that the church is

1023
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:23,640
true because your parents taught
you so, that can be true, but

1024
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:26,680
you don't know for yourself
until you really question it,

1025
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:31,040
until you really dig deep and
figure out what your foundation,

1026
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,000
what is the foundation of your
testimony.

1027
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:40,400
So in my own journey I had, I
had kind of checked out of the

1028
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:44,440
LDS church for a while and
things worked.

1029
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:47,200
Things weren't right in my life.
I'll be honest, things were

1030
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:53,120
very, very difficult.
And it was in that place of

1031
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:58,400
darkness that I was looking for
what where is truth?

1032
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,600
What can I really on to?
What actually will make?

1033
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:08,320
I wanted to be happy like I was
when I was, when I was a full

1034
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:11,640
believer and I believed that
everything was right and I could

1035
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:16,320
just trust my faith and
testimony to the church that I

1036
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:22,760
could basically abrogate that
responsibility.

1037
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:29,360
And I missed it, but finally I
just came to this in my own

1038
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:32,640
darkest moments.
I realized that I have to

1039
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:37,040
decipher myself and I started
again with the Book of Mormon

1040
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:39,360
and I'm like, I know that this
is true.

1041
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:41,680
I have a testimony that this is
true.

1042
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,720
The doctrines in this are are
are have been blessed my life.

1043
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:51,640
So what happened?
And it was in that searching for

1044
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:55,160
question answers to these types
of questions that I just was

1045
01:06:55,160 --> 01:07:00,000
very fortunately brought to Drew
Briny's book on Adam, God.

1046
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,400
I was brought to Ogden Kraut's
book The Church and the

1047
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:05,880
Priesthood.
Right.

1048
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:11,160
And all of a sudden, so this is
interesting, at the exact same

1049
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:15,280
time I was doing that, I had
also stumbled across Denver

1050
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,680
Snuffer's book, The Passing of
the Henley Gift.

1051
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:23,960
And I read that book in that
darkness.

1052
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:29,320
And I'm like, this makes sense,
right?

1053
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:34,960
This makes sense intellectually,
but spiritually, I felt

1054
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:42,440
violated.
Something was off about, I

1055
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:44,720
believe, the conclusions that he
was coming to.

1056
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,120
Gotcha.
He was talking about real

1057
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:51,920
issues, but his conclusions, it
brought darkness, and I

1058
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,760
contrasted that to reading the
Journal of Discourses, reading

1059
01:07:55,760 --> 01:08:00,240
Brigham's sermons on Adam God,
reading Ogden Crowd explaining

1060
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:02,880
the difference between church
and priesthood.

1061
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:06,720
Right and.
There was light there.

1062
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,920
There was actual light, the
light that I was looking for.

1063
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:18,600
And so I thought, OK, this must
be where it's at.

1064
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:20,680
I went through a phase where I
thought, OK, the church has

1065
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:24,840
gone, gone astray at some point,
but there's still these old

1066
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:28,560
truths out there.
And I studied them.

1067
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:34,359
I latched onto them.
And I, I went looking for where

1068
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:39,000
the real church is AT.
And you know, I, I making

1069
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:44,399
friends with, I became friends
with Kevin Kraut, right?

1070
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:47,200
And you know, he's an
independent fundamentalist.

1071
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:49,479
Yep.
But he knows everybody, right?

1072
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,359
And he was more than happy to
introduce me to various

1073
01:08:52,359 --> 01:08:55,479
fundamentalist groups.
And I went and I met with him, I

1074
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:59,080
talked with them.
And every time it was just like.

1075
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,000
Almost, but not quite.
Almost, but not.

1076
01:09:03,319 --> 01:09:04,240
Quite.
Yep.

1077
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,760
And there's a, there's a quote
from Isaiah.

1078
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:11,920
I don't, I don't have it here,
but it talks about, there's some

1079
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,160
verses in Isaiah that talks
about this, this pride of

1080
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:19,760
Ephraim.
It talks about there being vomit

1081
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:24,960
upon all the tables.
And I realized, I think that's

1082
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:30,279
where we're at.
And I didn't feel personally, I

1083
01:09:30,279 --> 01:09:33,040
didn't feel compelled to
associate with any of the

1084
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:34,840
fundamentalist groups as a
whole.

1085
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,600
I thought that they had
preserved maybe truths that the

1086
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:42,680
LDS church had not let go of.
But for the most part, a lot of

1087
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:48,880
these organizations didn't fit.
They, they have their own, they

1088
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:56,000
have their own agendas.
And so I very slowly over the

1089
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:58,480
course of many, many, many
years.

1090
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:02,640
Started.
Rebuilding my faith as basically

1091
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:07,400
as an independent fundamentalist
and it was a very difficult

1092
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:08,680
journey.
It was a hard journey.

1093
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:13,160
And again, I'm I'm looking
around at the world today.

1094
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:18,720
I'm looking at the state of the
church today and I'm seeing very

1095
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:24,200
sincere people with very sincere
issues and questions and

1096
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:28,840
concerns.
And I think to myself, I see

1097
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:30,120
these people and I think to
myself.

1098
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:32,680
I'm them.
I'm them.

1099
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:40,560
Yeah, exactly.
I was there if only I if only

1100
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:44,960
they have could have the
information that I have had.

1101
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:52,920
Right.
And it's not just the Pimos I I

1102
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:54,640
have.
I have friends and family that

1103
01:10:54,640 --> 01:11:01,240
are struggling with their
associate, their membership in

1104
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:06,480
the LDS Church, even even now,
Not necessarily because they're

1105
01:11:06,480 --> 01:11:10,400
losing their testimony and
Joseph Smith, but they're losing

1106
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:14,560
their testimony in the world.
Right.

1107
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:17,960
And when the church is
apparently allied with that,

1108
01:11:18,440 --> 01:11:24,120
when the church is bringing this
stuff into the Chapel, where do

1109
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:26,160
they, what do they do?
Where do they go?

1110
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:30,480
That's been the question I've
gotten for the better part of

1111
01:11:30,480 --> 01:11:35,560
two years.
And look, not everybody's going

1112
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:38,760
to fit in Missouri, right?
Right.

1113
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:44,600
Not everybody is going to fit in
with this group or that group.

1114
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:51,000
It's people are going to have to
come in and, you know, they're

1115
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:55,840
going to be in the middle of
doing what it is you and I had

1116
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:58,200
to do with that deconstruction,
right?

1117
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:01,400
But I did want to ask you a
question on that deconstruction.

1118
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:03,720
Sure.
Would you change that for

1119
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:05,000
anything now?
No.

1120
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:08,040
Me neither.
It was hell on earth when I went

1121
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:13,280
through it, but I wouldn't trade
those days for anything because

1122
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:19,200
it's out of that, that forge,
that fire of being heated back

1123
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:25,640
up and pounded with with with
the hammer of truth and letting

1124
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:28,840
your misconceptions fall from
you like dross.

1125
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:36,040
That you come out a usable tool
for the Lord because now you

1126
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,480
have a sharp edge or now you're
a hammer or whatever it is.

1127
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:44,000
You are now able to be used
because you've gotten rid of the

1128
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:46,720
the stuff that wasn't correct,
right?

1129
01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:48,440
You're sharp, you're ready to
go.

1130
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:52,000
Yeah, I'm not.
I'm no longer afraid.

1131
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:54,360
Right.
I'm no longer afraid that, well,

1132
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:56,840
what if?
What if Joseph Smith was wrong?

1133
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,400
What if Brigham was wrong?
What if John Taylor was wrong?

1134
01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:05,040
I don't have those fears anymore
because my testimony is their

1135
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:08,920
testimony.
Not because they said it, but

1136
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:10,800
because I've got my own
testimony about.

1137
01:13:11,480 --> 01:13:17,560
Right, 100% And yeah, people
will, you know, the people that

1138
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,160
I talked to, the emails I get,
they're right there.

1139
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:22,800
They're going through that,
right?

1140
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:26,120
And all I've been able to say
thus far is like, just keep

1141
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:30,280
pushing forward, right?
Something will break for you,

1142
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,960
and it will.
It will one of the struggles

1143
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,840
with this though, and I, I love
my fundamentalist brothers and

1144
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:43,040
sisters, especially, you know,
Independence, Oregon, part of

1145
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:45,520
organizations.
I have no ill will towards any

1146
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:50,000
of them, but they've got their
own stuff they're dealing with.

1147
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:53,360
Sure, there's a lot of societal
scarring there when when your

1148
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:57,080
kids get taken away from you,
that tends to leave a scar that

1149
01:13:57,080 --> 01:13:59,320
runs kind of deep for several
generations.

1150
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:04,800
Yeah, well, and, and the FLDS
Church, I mean, they clearly

1151
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:08,840
went way astray, right.
But how did that happen?

1152
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,720
Well, a lot of that came from
the persecution.

1153
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:13,640
Yep.
That drove them into the

1154
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:17,760
darkness. 100%.
When you're, when you're a kid

1155
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:22,240
growing up terrified that your
dad is going to be put in jail,

1156
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:27,920
you're going to lose your father
if the government outs them, you

1157
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:30,520
live in fear that, well, you
can't trust the government.

1158
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:33,640
When the LDS church is assisting
the government and hunting down

1159
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:36,840
your father, the LDS church
becomes an enemy.

1160
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:44,040
And I can understand the
hesitancy, but there is a

1161
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:46,480
hesitancy.
And I experienced this myself

1162
01:14:46,480 --> 01:14:51,080
when I was investigating a lot
of these groups that coming out

1163
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:54,760
of the LDS Church, if I don't
have the, if I don't have the

1164
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:57,680
right last name, right, am I
going to be accepted?

1165
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:01,080
Can I really be a part of this
organization?

1166
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:05,880
And for me, the answer most of
the time was not really.

1167
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:11,280
And it's not to blame them, but
there are, there's real concerns

1168
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,640
there.
And because a lot of the Mormon

1169
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:17,200
fundamentalist has been
underground for so long, it

1170
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:20,400
attracts sometimes it attracts
weirdos as well.

1171
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:24,600
It attracts problematic people
and so a lot of these

1172
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:26,480
organizations are very
defensive.

1173
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:29,200
And.
Rightfully so, and rightfully

1174
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:30,880
so.
They want you.

1175
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:32,720
They, they're going to want you
to prove yourself.

1176
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:37,080
They're going to want you to
really show that you're here for

1177
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:41,000
the right reason, not just, not
just to come grab one, grab one

1178
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:43,800
of their daughters as a, as an
extra wife or something like

1179
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:46,560
that.
And those are valid concerns.

1180
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:50,480
And that's the place where a lot
of these organizations are at.

1181
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:57,840
And as an independent
fundamentalist, I started

1182
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:00,680
looking for, I started praying
and, and, and trying to get some

1183
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:06,960
help because I want to, I, I
have been converted and I want

1184
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:11,000
to share that fruit.
But for a lot of people coming

1185
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:14,760
out of the LDS Church right now,
the existing fundamentalist

1186
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:18,360
organizations might not be a
very good fit.

1187
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:25,800
At least not for a while, right?
Yeah, 'cause look, This is why

1188
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:29,920
I'm so glad I there are times
I'm really glad I'm a convert.

1189
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:34,680
Now, there's certain times where
I think it'd be just way cool to

1190
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:38,400
have that pedigree that goes
back to Nauvoo, right?

1191
01:16:39,440 --> 01:16:41,760
Get, get, get some deep Mormon
cred.

1192
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:49,160
But I will say this, being a
convert to the LDS Church may

1193
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:53,920
becoming a fundamentalist not as
terrifying, I think, right?

1194
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:57,400
Because I ripped up the
foundation once, right?

1195
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:04,080
I went down not just to studs to
the foundation and went, yeah,

1196
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,720
tear it up.
My foundation is bad.

1197
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:09,880
Get rid of the foundation when I
became a fundamentalist.

1198
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:12,880
Like we're just taking it down
to studs.

1199
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:15,600
Right, not going so far.
We're not going so far, right?

1200
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:19,400
I'm just taking it down to studs
and I may have to move some of

1201
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,600
those, some of that framing to
match the foundation.

1202
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:26,040
But the foundation is solid,
right?

1203
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:30,720
And, and, and that would be the
other thing I'd say to people as

1204
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:34,920
they're struggling in the church
is that your foundation is good.

1205
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:36,800
Yeah, right.
Not.

1206
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:40,080
There may be a few things you
have to correct, a few sections

1207
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:45,000
that have maybe cracked, but by
and large, your foundation solid

1208
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:47,360
right now.
We just got to make the

1209
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:50,640
structure match the foundation.
If we can do that, you'll be in

1210
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:52,880
business.
Right, right.

1211
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:57,280
And ultimately I don't, I, I
don't have an answer.

1212
01:17:57,280 --> 01:18:02,280
I wish, I myself wish there was
somebody out in the world today

1213
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:04,800
who could say I am the Lord's
anointed.

1214
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:09,160
I have all the answers.
I do tennis with Christ on

1215
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:16,840
Tuesdays and, and I know exactly
what needs to happen and I, I, I

1216
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:25,520
just, it sure would be nice.
But I, I have a hunch that in

1217
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:32,360
these latter days, the God has
basically already restored the

1218
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:37,440
things that we need, right?
He's waiting for us to take

1219
01:18:37,440 --> 01:18:40,000
these principles and actually
run with them.

1220
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:44,480
And this is where I there was a
progressive site where I think

1221
01:18:44,480 --> 01:18:49,280
that we can get to a point of
establishing a Zion society

1222
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:55,480
without God sending one mighty
and strong to tell us all

1223
01:18:55,480 --> 01:19:00,640
exactly what to do. 100%.
Brigham Young's vision for the

1224
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:04,880
Kingdom of God that he was
trying to establish in Utah,

1225
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:09,440
right, required a serious amount
of trusting.

1226
01:19:09,440 --> 01:19:14,800
People.
And the take that I get, having

1227
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:20,040
studied Brigham Young
extensively, is that Brigham

1228
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:22,760
Young had a responsibility to
preserve the church.

1229
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:28,080
And because of that, there were
times when he somewhat

1230
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,680
authoritatively told people
what's what.

1231
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:37,960
But his ultimate vision for the
Kingdom of God was a nation of

1232
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:41,560
kings and priests, Queens and
priestesses.

1233
01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:45,360
Yep, 100%.
And I think to myself, how do we

1234
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:49,880
get to a society, a Zion
society, where we all know the

1235
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:51,120
Lord?
Right.

1236
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:54,880
I don't have to depend upon a
single one man.

1237
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:59,720
I don't have to abrogate that
responsibility, but that I can

1238
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:04,400
take ownership.
Of my own faith, my own

1239
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:09,080
relationship with Divine.
You know, that was that was

1240
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:11,200
necessary for Brigham's day,
right?

1241
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:14,840
Because, you know, we forget or
I shouldn't say we forget.

1242
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:20,040
Sometimes I think it's easy to
overlook this fact that it's not

1243
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:25,280
like the Saints got to Utah and
went, we're good, we're good.

1244
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:27,400
We don't have to do anything
else.

1245
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:33,200
No, that's not what happened.
They got to the great the, the,

1246
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:36,320
the Valley of the Great Salt
Lake and Brigham said, yeah,

1247
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:39,240
head South and you guys head
north.

1248
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:42,160
Now those guys I felt sorry for
because they ended up in

1249
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:44,880
Rexburg.
Nonetheless, they went right?

1250
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:50,280
They did.
And there's no Telegraph when

1251
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:52,120
they first get to Utah.
There's no telegraphs.

1252
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:55,840
There's no calling up Brigham
and being like, how do I do

1253
01:20:55,840 --> 01:20:58,360
this?
No, you had to go.

1254
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:00,720
You had to go get your answers
yourself.

1255
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:05,080
And how are you going to
administer the gospel with this

1256
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:10,600
little group of people in
Nevada, in Arizona, in southern

1257
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:13,760
Utah, away from church
headquarters, right?

1258
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:18,400
You, you were required to take
ownership in those days.

1259
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:22,520
And it's something that since
correlation began in the LDS

1260
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:27,960
Church, it's been 1 abrogation
of responsibility after another,

1261
01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:28,920
right?
Yeah.

1262
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:33,080
And that's the problems we see
When when Taylor and I have our

1263
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:37,760
discussion last week, it's
ultimately about responsibility,

1264
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:40,480
right?
No, Bishop, don't you take

1265
01:21:40,480 --> 01:21:42,680
responsibility.
I just need you to call the

1266
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:45,120
helpline and the lawyer will
tell you what to do.

1267
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:47,240
Right.
Where's the priesthood in that?

1268
01:21:47,480 --> 01:21:52,280
Right, right.
And, and so you're 100% correct,

1269
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:57,400
A lot of Mormonism's history in
the LDS church has been an

1270
01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:02,120
abrogation of personal
responsibility to the one man,

1271
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:06,040
and that is what has LED us
here.

1272
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:10,160
It is.
And you know, it's not even just

1273
01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:11,160
the church.
Nope.

1274
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:16,400
Every institution in society
today is saying, hey, we know

1275
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:18,880
what's best.
We'll be responsible.

1276
01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:21,040
We will be responsible for your
health.

1277
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:24,520
Listen to the Department of
Health and when they say jump,

1278
01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:28,400
jump and you'll be OK.
Or eat 7 servings of grain.

1279
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:33,720
So you end up diabetic and in
horrible health right?

1280
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:36,240
I mean.
Education.

1281
01:22:36,440 --> 01:22:38,800
Yep, the the government knows
what's best.

1282
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:43,040
They know what our kids need.
Send our kids to their schools

1283
01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:46,160
and they will take care of us.
Allegedly.

1284
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:47,840
Allegedly.
Yep.

1285
01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:53,200
Right, but I at least for me, it
rubs me wrong.

1286
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:56,720
Me too.
I I don't think that I'll be

1287
01:22:56,720 --> 01:23:00,640
honest that this is Satan's
plan. 100%.

1288
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:04,200
Satan's plan was I will take
responsibility for everybody's

1289
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:08,480
salvation, they won't have
responsibility for any of it,

1290
01:23:08,480 --> 01:23:12,720
and I'll bring them all back.
Yep, that's what he promised,

1291
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:17,880
and that's what the world looks
like to me today. 100%.

1292
01:23:18,440 --> 01:23:20,800
All of our institutions from
education, healthcare,

1293
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:23,960
government, you name it.
Government's easy to see it in,

1294
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:26,280
right.
We are constantly looking for

1295
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:28,960
the guy, right, right.
Who's the next?

1296
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:31,560
George Washington?
He ain't coming.

1297
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:35,960
You better get busy doing that
yourself and find someone else

1298
01:23:37,480 --> 01:23:40,040
who agrees with you on some some
of those things so you can

1299
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:44,680
change them.
But the one guy, whether in

1300
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:49,240
government, in the church, yeah,
I don't think it's going to be

1301
01:23:49,240 --> 01:23:52,400
that way this time around.
I think now we're in a time of

1302
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:58,600
people have enough access to
information, they have access to

1303
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:01,480
prayer and revelation.
We're going to have to do it

1304
01:24:01,480 --> 01:24:03,160
ourselves.
Right.

1305
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:07,800
So this is this is the, this is
the world we see ourselves in.

1306
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:10,320
And this is something that I've
been praying a lot about.

1307
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:13,040
And over the course of last
year, I've been getting some

1308
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:19,280
promptings that what is needed
is a, a place for people to

1309
01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:24,600
land, some place where they can
maintain, keep their foundation,

1310
01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:27,960
maybe don't excavate all the way
and tear that whole thing out

1311
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:29,440
'cause it's it's hard to
rebuild.

1312
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:36,240
I've been there.
And I started having a vision

1313
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:43,760
for a place for Mormons, not
just fundamentalists, but all of

1314
01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:52,200
us, where we can work together
to preserve, maintain and live

1315
01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:57,160
our values and standards.
I don't want to have to worry

1316
01:24:57,160 --> 01:25:01,560
about going to the LDS church
with my family and worry about

1317
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:04,440
what's happening to my kids.
Is there a predator in the ward

1318
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:08,200
that wants to groom them?
Is there, oh, false doctrines

1319
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:09,680
even.
I mean, we, we were talking

1320
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:14,800
about the these issues.
There's something seriously

1321
01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:18,480
wrong in my mind when a child
has to be interviewed by the

1322
01:25:18,480 --> 01:25:21,240
Bishop.
Yeah, for worthiness to be

1323
01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:26,360
baptized. 100%.
If we believe the Book of Mormon

1324
01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:29,840
is true, then children before
they reach the age of

1325
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:33,520
accountability, it doesn't
matter what happened.

1326
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:37,520
No.
That's that that happened.

1327
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:41,200
In the grace period.
In that grace period.

1328
01:25:41,440 --> 01:25:45,640
So what kind of standard do
children need to live up to, to

1329
01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:48,240
be able to receive baptism,
right?

1330
01:25:49,080 --> 01:25:52,680
It's very Pharasitical amendment
and it takes.

1331
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:55,040
So again, it's taking away
responsibility.

1332
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:59,840
As a father, I think that I am
responsible to teach and raise

1333
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:03,240
my children so that they will
want to be baptized, that they

1334
01:26:03,240 --> 01:26:09,800
will be prepared to be baptized,
and that decision on whether

1335
01:26:09,800 --> 01:26:12,880
they are ready or not falls on
me as a father.

1336
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:16,440
Right.
It doesn't fall upon whoever

1337
01:26:16,440 --> 01:26:22,600
happened to be called as Bishop
to ask potentially inappropriate

1338
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:25,720
and invasive questions about my,
you know, to my children in an

1339
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:27,880
interview.
It just doesn't make any sense.

1340
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:30,760
Right?
And it again goes back to that,

1341
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:35,000
that loss of, of responsibility.
And I don't think that we grow

1342
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:38,920
if, if we're doing the right
thing because the church is

1343
01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:42,440
telling us to, we're not really
doing the right thing.

1344
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:46,200
We're already doing the right
thing because we are convicted.

1345
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:48,760
That's right, that we are doing
the right thing, that that is

1346
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:59,600
the right thing.
And so there's a bit of, there's

1347
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:03,520
a bit of a problem.
We we've got a bit of a problem

1348
01:27:03,520 --> 01:27:06,880
with the world trying to subvert
the church.

1349
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:15,120
We've also got a problem with
some fundamental, our

1350
01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:17,640
fundamental idea of what the
church is supposed to be.

1351
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:21,520
We've kind of bought in, I
think, to this idea that the

1352
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:23,840
church is going to be our, our
father and mother.

1353
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:25,920
They're going to, they're going
to tell us what to do.

1354
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:29,240
As long as we obey, things are
going to work out all right.

1355
01:27:30,080 --> 01:27:33,400
And that's not, that's not
happening, unfortunately.

1356
01:27:33,400 --> 01:27:37,280
I, I wish that could be true for
people, but for a lot of people,

1357
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:39,800
they are in line with the
program.

1358
01:27:40,480 --> 01:27:42,440
They're do it.
They're they're following along

1359
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:45,000
and things aren't so great.
Right.

1360
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:52,080
Things aren't going so well.
And you know, I was talking with

1361
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:53,920
a a buddy of mine, Jeff
Aldridge.

1362
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:57,640
And he should, dude.
Great dude and and he shared

1363
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:00,760
this with me and I thought he
nailed it.

1364
01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:03,760
The church is now led by the
government.

1365
01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:06,480
The government has become the
God.

1366
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:12,160
Not wrong of the.
Church and right, we look at

1367
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:14,880
this historically under Hebrew J
Grant, and that's where the

1368
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:21,200
shift really kicks in.
And it's no longer about what is

1369
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:24,960
true, it is about what will the
government allow us to get away

1370
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:28,400
with on the issues of the
vaccine.

1371
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:30,760
Yeah.
You know, that was a that's a

1372
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:32,480
turning point for a lot of
members.

1373
01:28:32,480 --> 01:28:33,880
I believe in the LDS.
Church.

1374
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:34,960
Sure it was.
Yep.

1375
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:41,800
Because they already have their
own values on their health and

1376
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:46,800
this experimental jab that is
safe and effective, allegedly,

1377
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:50,520
allegedly isn't something that
they had a testimony of.

1378
01:28:52,480 --> 01:28:55,040
But when you've got the leader
of the church who is supposedly

1379
01:28:55,040 --> 01:28:59,480
infallible and cannot make
mistakes, and that we're being

1380
01:28:59,480 --> 01:29:03,880
asked to, to surrender our
responsibility to this person to

1381
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:07,320
make sure everything's OK and,
and, and something goes wrong,

1382
01:29:09,480 --> 01:29:11,200
it can shake things to the
foundation.

1383
01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:15,760
And I understand why it really
does create this dilemma.

1384
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:17,720
And I don't know if people
realize this, but it's a it

1385
01:29:17,720 --> 01:29:24,040
creates A dilemma because of the
existing church policies, right?

1386
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:28,000
One of which is is that the
church doesn't apologize.

1387
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:34,640
Right.
And this is an odd thing to say,

1388
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:38,120
but so I have my own
understanding on the theology of

1389
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:43,720
repentance that I get from the
Book of Mormon and it and that I

1390
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:47,400
experienced in my own life.
And that is is that it's OK to

1391
01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:49,160
make mistakes.
Yeah.

1392
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:53,520
As long as you repent.
And what does repent mean?

1393
01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:56,840
It means to turn away from.
Right.

1394
01:29:57,600 --> 01:30:02,520
And to try to make amends to, to
try to do better as a father.

1395
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:05,760
When I'm working with my
children, they're not going to

1396
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:09,040
bed, they're staying up late.
I, I lose my temper sometimes,

1397
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:11,680
right?
And I'm like, get the better.

1398
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:13,440
I'm spanking butts.
Right.

1399
01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:20,440
And then I have to reflect and
say, you know, my kids do need

1400
01:30:20,440 --> 01:30:23,120
to go to sleep.
I don't want them to go to bed

1401
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:26,120
on time because I'm a scary
tyrant, though that's not the

1402
01:30:26,120 --> 01:30:27,520
kind of father that I want to
be.

1403
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:32,120
And I'll talk to them about it.
I'll talk to them next morning

1404
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:34,440
and say, I'm sorry I that I lost
my temper.

1405
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:39,480
I can apologize to my children.
And that's important for me

1406
01:30:39,480 --> 01:30:43,120
because if I make a mistake,
I've got to try to make that

1407
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:46,480
right.
But what do you do if if you are

1408
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:51,600
sustained as this infallible
prophet and you tell everybody

1409
01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:53,760
to get this jab because it's
safe and effective?

1410
01:30:56,520 --> 01:31:02,480
There is a lot wrong with that
period in history of the church

1411
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:06,520
and I say history because feels
like it was a while ago, but it

1412
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:09,640
really wasn't right.
That was a few years ago.

1413
01:31:11,720 --> 01:31:15,800
And I honestly, I think this is
the first time you saw cracks

1414
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:22,400
begin to form because there was
a large segment and the segment

1415
01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:25,640
in question was the one that
makes the church operate on the

1416
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:32,000
local level.
Who were saying, hold on, how do

1417
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:35,400
we know, right?
And where does personal

1418
01:31:35,400 --> 01:31:38,480
revelation kick in here?
Are you allowed to be

1419
01:31:38,480 --> 01:31:40,120
responsible for yourself?
Yes.

1420
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:45,480
Are you allowed to?
I don't believe the mask is

1421
01:31:45,480 --> 01:31:47,240
going to protect me.
Am I allowed?

1422
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:52,400
Yes.
Well, you are allowed but.

1423
01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:55,280
There's consequences.
There's consequences, and are

1424
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:59,560
they natural consequences or are
they artificial consequences?

1425
01:31:59,840 --> 01:32:07,720
I remember the Christmas after.
Oh, and this this just chapped

1426
01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:14,320
chapped my rear end to knowing
to know it was horrible that

1427
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:19,800
Christmas after the the vaccine
comes out, the church said

1428
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:25,800
Temple Square is back open
unless you've not been

1429
01:32:25,800 --> 01:32:29,920
vaccinated, in which case stay
away.

1430
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:33,520
And I was like.
Oh.

1431
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:38,800
Just telling the unwashed masses
to to stay out of there, right?

1432
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:43,800
I mean, it was a little brutal.
Well, you know, I have family

1433
01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:48,520
members that were intending to
serve missions and they're being

1434
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:51,240
told they need to take this
vaccine or they can't serve a

1435
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:55,520
mission.
What a awful place to be in

1436
01:32:55,520 --> 01:33:01,040
where you can't exercise your
own responsibility for your

1437
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:02,160
health.
Yeah.

1438
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:05,760
That's a tragic.
That's a place that nobody

1439
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:07,840
should have to be, the situation
that nobody should have to be

1440
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:08,760
put into.
Nope.

1441
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:12,760
But they were.
And So what do you do about that

1442
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:18,600
if you are the guy that maybe
now you realize put out some bad

1443
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:20,920
advice?
Absolutely.

1444
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:24,000
At this point, even even our
government is starting to say,

1445
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:28,640
OK, yeah, we might really screw
the pooch on this.

1446
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:30,880
Maybe these vaccines aren't
effect.

1447
01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:33,120
Well, they've admitted these
vaccines were not effective.

1448
01:33:34,440 --> 01:33:37,280
And now even the government's
starting to say, well, maybe

1449
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:39,080
they're not very safe either.
Right.

1450
01:33:41,240 --> 01:33:46,160
If I had counseled my own
children to get that vaccine and

1451
01:33:46,160 --> 01:33:48,720
now I have this new information
and I realized that was a

1452
01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:52,840
mistake, I need to, I need to be
able to talk to them about that.

1453
01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:56,320
Absolutely.
For my own repentance process.

1454
01:33:56,360 --> 01:33:58,920
I need to be able to ask them
about that, talk to them about

1455
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:02,160
it.
What do you do with the policy,

1456
01:34:02,160 --> 01:34:03,880
though?
Is is you're not allowed?

1457
01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:07,640
The church doesn't apologize.
No, Dallin a Choke said so,

1458
01:34:07,680 --> 01:34:09,920
right.
The church does not apologize.

1459
01:34:11,360 --> 01:34:12,760
Period.
Right.

1460
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:18,880
I do believe it's good for
fathers and mothers when they

1461
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:22,880
get stuff wrong, to talk to
their kids about it, right?

1462
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:26,960
I don't think that's bad.
I think what that shows is what

1463
01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:29,280
healthy servant leadership looks
like.

1464
01:34:30,840 --> 01:34:34,960
Now.
If the church can't model that,

1465
01:34:37,560 --> 01:34:42,160
what are we left with, right?
Well.

1466
01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:47,200
A terrible situation at A at a
personal level, I, I feel

1467
01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:51,920
sympathy for Russell M Nelson
because he's in a place where

1468
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:58,480
imagine he's in a place where he
can't really fully repent of his

1469
01:34:58,480 --> 01:35:02,480
mistakes cause of his position.
And I guarantee you he's

1470
01:35:02,480 --> 01:35:06,840
concerned that if he were to
apologize, well, why not

1471
01:35:06,840 --> 01:35:09,000
apologize, right?
Well, because people might lose

1472
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:11,760
faith.
Lose faith in what?

1473
01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:15,760
For one man.
Prophetic infallibility, this

1474
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:21,720
one man.
And the truth is they probably

1475
01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:25,120
lose people.
They probably lose people.

1476
01:35:26,240 --> 01:35:29,240
And So what an awful situation
for the for the prophet of the

1477
01:35:29,240 --> 01:35:36,520
church to be in where he can't
correct mistakes out of fear of

1478
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:38,280
driving other people away from
the faith.

1479
01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:43,680
I mean, he kind of becomes like
this weird sin offering in and

1480
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:46,680
of himself, right?
Where he's going to have to just

1481
01:35:46,680 --> 01:35:51,560
bear that he doesn't get
personal repentance because the

1482
01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:55,520
organization requires this of
him.

1483
01:35:56,280 --> 01:35:59,760
True, that's a rough, rough
place to be.

1484
01:35:59,920 --> 01:36:06,320
Yeah, it is a rough place to be
and it doesn't have to be that

1485
01:36:06,320 --> 01:36:11,280
way, right, right.
And we, we understand that, but

1486
01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:13,680
we've been, we've been in this
fundamentalist field for a long

1487
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:15,880
time.
Yeah, we've, we, we've tore it

1488
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:17,840
all apart.
We've put it back together even

1489
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:19,360
Why?
We weren't technically

1490
01:36:19,360 --> 01:36:23,640
fundamentalists.
We were closeted

1491
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:27,440
fundamentalists, right?
I mean, we were, we were pretty

1492
01:36:27,440 --> 01:36:29,440
not.
We were going to the back alleys

1493
01:36:29,440 --> 01:36:32,240
to buy the illegal Ogden Kraut
books, right?

1494
01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:36,160
But yeah, no, we we've been
through the fire here on this a

1495
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:37,240
little bit.
Right.

1496
01:36:37,840 --> 01:36:41,840
So I guess it's with that idea
that we have been through this

1497
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:45,040
fire and there is a need, an
absolute need.

1498
01:36:45,040 --> 01:36:50,360
In my opinion, it's not.
Before we go there, I do want to

1499
01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:54,560
sum up real quick all the issues
we just talked about.

1500
01:36:55,400 --> 01:37:00,160
Before we delve in, dive in to
the solution and I want to take

1501
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:06,160
a quick break.
We have in the LDS church, a

1502
01:37:06,160 --> 01:37:10,760
church that has made sure that
their their parishioners

1503
01:37:10,760 --> 01:37:13,080
abrogated their own personal
responsibility.

1504
01:37:14,760 --> 01:37:23,240
The church now is signaling in
every way that they are going to

1505
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:27,040
take a hard left, right.
And when I say a hard left,

1506
01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:31,320
they're going into LGBTQ now to
figure out how to make it all

1507
01:37:31,320 --> 01:37:37,000
work inside the church, right?
Proof of that.

1508
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:43,400
The communications guy, right?
Active, outspoken advocate for

1509
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:48,640
the trans movement and LGBTQ.
The fact that the family

1510
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:52,760
proclamation has not been
canonized yet.

1511
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:55,640
I'm just saying, if you're not
going to use it, can we have it?

1512
01:37:57,640 --> 01:37:59,440
I felt like that was inspired,
right?

1513
01:37:59,440 --> 01:38:01,440
Absolutely.
It was inspired.

1514
01:38:02,200 --> 01:38:04,880
They can they can end that whole
debate tomorrow.

1515
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:08,880
If they just said yeah, that's
now scripture, it would be done.

1516
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:13,760
They haven't OK, we have the
abuse stuff going on.

1517
01:38:14,080 --> 01:38:18,120
We have quite frankly, money
laundering happen, right.

1518
01:38:18,480 --> 01:38:21,400
Not when I have mixed feelings
on because one organization I

1519
01:38:21,400 --> 01:38:23,880
don't like is sticking it to
another organization I don't

1520
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:27,360
like.
And I'm like, I, I would almost

1521
01:38:27,360 --> 01:38:29,560
cite a little bit more with the
church on that one, but

1522
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:31,320
nonetheless, it's not a great
look.

1523
01:38:31,360 --> 01:38:33,680
Well, even with that, right,
that was one of the things also

1524
01:38:33,680 --> 01:38:36,360
that Willie woke me up was I'm
like, why?

1525
01:38:36,440 --> 01:38:40,880
Why is the church building a a
the most expensive mall we've

1526
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:42,520
ever seen across from the
temple?

1527
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:44,720
A great and spacious building.
A great and spacious building

1528
01:38:44,720 --> 01:38:48,200
with these apartments at the top
for the wealthy.

1529
01:38:48,200 --> 01:38:51,320
Rich people who don't have
families, so there's no room for

1530
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:52,920
a family in these kinds.
Of equipments.

1531
01:38:53,400 --> 01:38:58,280
To to live as elites of Utah
looking down upon the temple.

1532
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:02,160
Yep, Yep.
So we have all those things,

1533
01:39:02,160 --> 01:39:05,240
right?
And now we have intellectual

1534
01:39:05,240 --> 01:39:10,040
dishonesty in terms of of, you
know, this stuff with like that,

1535
01:39:10,040 --> 01:39:13,200
that video, you were showing an
inconvenient faith, right?

1536
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:17,560
And you have actual active
Mormons on there, right?

1537
01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:23,680
And I, I use that term loosely,
but but guys like Mason, guys

1538
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:29,200
like Harry Reid, who was a
Mormon, active Mormon who who

1539
01:39:29,200 --> 01:39:32,080
has passed I think last two or
three years.

1540
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:36,280
We have all of these now that
are starting to coalesce.

1541
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:41,080
And what this is showing is that
the church is moving in a far

1542
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:46,640
more nasty place.
It's going to go way progressive

1543
01:39:46,640 --> 01:39:50,080
very quickly.
They're letting they're letting

1544
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:54,320
the subversives in and they're
and they're not dealing with

1545
01:39:54,600 --> 01:39:56,120
that.
They're not addressing these

1546
01:39:56,120 --> 01:39:58,000
issues.
These these things can be.

1547
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:01,000
You don't even need to canonize.
You don't even need to canonize

1548
01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:03,440
the family proclamation.
All you need to do is come out

1549
01:40:03,440 --> 01:40:06,920
and say, hey, this is let's have
a General conference talk and

1550
01:40:06,920 --> 01:40:11,120
let's just lay down what God's
laws.

1551
01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:14,960
Really are and if you're
struggling with that, hey, we

1552
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:17,560
can help you.
These are the laws.

1553
01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:23,520
Instead, we get these mixed
messages and we have these these

1554
01:40:24,040 --> 01:40:28,760
great faithful guys in the LDS
church trying to defend the

1555
01:40:28,760 --> 01:40:33,040
family, trying to defend the
church from this hostile rules

1556
01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:38,040
for radical liberal worldly
takeover and and the church

1557
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:39,760
doesn't have their back.
Nope.

1558
01:40:40,120 --> 01:40:42,440
Nope.
And look, if they don't have

1559
01:40:42,440 --> 01:40:47,200
their most public members backs,
they are not going to have the

1560
01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:51,560
back of the run-of-the-mill
member, right?

1561
01:40:51,840 --> 01:40:54,400
And that's just something that's
that's sad to say.

1562
01:40:55,520 --> 01:40:59,360
Well, you had April.
April to Spain to.

1563
01:40:59,360 --> 01:41:01,880
Spain, yeah.
Church didn't have her back in

1564
01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:04,960
that battle.
I, I mean, it's, it's terrible

1565
01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:07,880
what happened to her.
I mean, I the follow up is she

1566
01:41:07,920 --> 01:41:11,000
she won the lawsuit.
But still kind of lost.

1567
01:41:11,000 --> 01:41:14,120
That kind of lost because now
she's got hundreds of $1000 of

1568
01:41:14,120 --> 01:41:15,640
debt.
So if anyone's got a pile of

1569
01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:17,560
cash, go donate to April's
GoFundMe.

1570
01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:20,640
She could use it.
Yeah, but you know, we have

1571
01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:22,720
changing ordinances now, right?
Or.

1572
01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:28,560
And the changes seem to be in a
manner which might accommodate a

1573
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:31,080
lot of what we just talked about
and.

1574
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:34,160
Well, it already has, right?
Feminism was one of these

1575
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:36,080
issues.
On that, they had a whole video

1576
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:38,480
on the feminism.
Yeah, their their their response

1577
01:41:38,480 --> 01:41:40,120
is, hey, look, the church
already is feminist.

1578
01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:44,600
Yep, Yep.
Well, we had fair who just and

1579
01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:46,960
and I like fair, They've done a
lot of good work.

1580
01:41:47,240 --> 01:41:50,240
But just recently at this last
conference, they had just what,

1581
01:41:50,240 --> 01:41:54,400
2 weeks ago, they said, Oh well,
the priesthood is great because

1582
01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:57,960
it's, and I'm paraphrasing here,
but you get the message when you

1583
01:41:57,960 --> 01:42:00,480
go look at it, it emasculates
men.

1584
01:42:01,080 --> 01:42:03,360
Makes men more feminine.
Well, no, I don't think that's

1585
01:42:03,360 --> 01:42:05,000
what the priesthood is doing,
right?

1586
01:42:05,000 --> 01:42:08,680
I just, it shouldn't be doing.
And so now we're in a place

1587
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:14,280
where if you are, you're, you're
run-of-the-mill LDS person who

1588
01:42:14,280 --> 01:42:18,880
feels this at their core, right?
You pay your tithing, you go to

1589
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:22,800
the temple, you serve in your
callings, you do all those

1590
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:25,840
things.
And now you're left wondering,

1591
01:42:25,960 --> 01:42:29,520
what do I do?
And I think, I think Justin's

1592
01:42:29,520 --> 01:42:32,040
got some good answers for you,
and we're going to cover that,

1593
01:42:32,040 --> 01:42:33,440
but we need to take a quick
break.

1594
01:42:35,160 --> 01:42:39,480
All right, So we've laid
everything out that that could

1595
01:42:39,480 --> 01:42:44,840
be wrong.
What's the solution?

1596
01:42:46,840 --> 01:42:50,800
Well, one potential solution
would be to take the rules for

1597
01:42:50,800 --> 01:42:55,520
radical approach and try to
subvert the church back.

1598
01:42:57,520 --> 01:42:59,480
I don't think that's the right
solution though.

1599
01:42:59,880 --> 01:43:02,400
It definitely wasn't the right
solution for me and my family

1600
01:43:03,280 --> 01:43:08,520
and for people that might feel
like the church still working

1601
01:43:08,520 --> 01:43:12,360
and it's worth fighting for.
I'm good with that, I respect

1602
01:43:12,360 --> 01:43:15,560
that.
But for some people, like it was

1603
01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:18,840
for me and my family, it just
isn't working.

1604
01:43:20,680 --> 01:43:25,800
And especially, I think with the
changes to some of the

1605
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:28,600
ordinances, the temple
ordinances in particular.

1606
01:43:29,040 --> 01:43:32,520
Right.
These are these are I think are

1607
01:43:32,520 --> 01:43:35,400
legitimate concerns to have.
Absolutely.

1608
01:43:35,480 --> 01:43:38,680
Is the endowment?
Is the endowment the Church

1609
01:43:38,680 --> 01:43:40,480
performs today recognized by
God?

1610
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:44,720
That's a good question.
I'm not ready to answer that

1611
01:43:44,720 --> 01:43:47,120
wholeheartedly, but I definitely
have some feelings on it.

1612
01:43:47,600 --> 01:43:50,880
Well, yeah, there were some
changes made.

1613
01:43:52,280 --> 01:43:55,600
Big changes.
Big changes, and these changes

1614
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:58,480
accommodate the world.
Right.

1615
01:43:58,680 --> 01:44:02,120
These are changes that
accommodate feminist ideas and

1616
01:44:02,120 --> 01:44:04,840
beliefs.
I don't believe that these

1617
01:44:04,840 --> 01:44:08,040
changes are in in alignment with
God's truth.

1618
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:10,640
Right.
I don't believe you can take

1619
01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:16,920
these these covenants of the
temple and reinterpret them.

1620
01:44:18,120 --> 01:44:21,560
Right.
To be something different like

1621
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:24,960
I, I, I wonder, so this is kind
of an anecdote, but I just, I

1622
01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:28,000
just kind of wonder who the last
woman to go through a live

1623
01:44:28,000 --> 01:44:33,760
endowment was who covenanted to
obey her husband as he obeyed

1624
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:37,600
the Lord.
And I wonder if she thinks

1625
01:44:38,520 --> 01:44:42,800
that's not fair.
One more day.

1626
01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:47,400
If it had been one more day, she
would be held to a different

1627
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:48,520
standard.
Yep.

1628
01:44:50,280 --> 01:44:53,080
And is that right?
Is your is your endowment

1629
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:56,760
correct?
I mean, either it was wrong from

1630
01:44:56,760 --> 01:45:00,920
the beginning and all those
women made covenants God was not

1631
01:45:00,920 --> 01:45:05,040
asking of them, or it's wrong
now.

1632
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:08,440
Either way, you turn God into a
monster.

1633
01:45:08,760 --> 01:45:12,320
Yeah, right.
Because either God knew it was

1634
01:45:12,320 --> 01:45:18,600
wrong all along and you let
women do that, or God's a

1635
01:45:18,600 --> 01:45:21,920
respecter of persons now and
says, you know, you're so much

1636
01:45:21,920 --> 01:45:24,880
better than your ancestors.
You know you can just.

1637
01:45:25,280 --> 01:45:27,360
We've evolved.
We've evolved, you can just

1638
01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:30,240
brush past that.
Either way, it's not a great

1639
01:45:30,240 --> 01:45:31,760
turn out.
No, it's not.

1640
01:45:32,760 --> 01:45:34,560
It's not.
And I don't even believe it's

1641
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:38,560
actually empowering to women.
No, this doesn't empower women.

1642
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:41,360
Nope.
And it and it disenfranchises

1643
01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:43,840
men of their responsibility.
100%.

1644
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:47,840
You know, this is this is my own
take, but my understanding of

1645
01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:50,920
what it means to be the head of
a household means I am

1646
01:45:50,920 --> 01:45:54,560
responsible for having unity
with my wife.

1647
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:57,560
It doesn't mean I'm the
dictator, doesn't mean that my

1648
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:01,480
way or the highway.
It means I am responsible that

1649
01:46:01,480 --> 01:46:04,920
me and my wife have unity.
Yep.

1650
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:10,920
And if there's not, well, what
is what is the what is where we

1651
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:12,360
taught about taught about the
priesthood?

1652
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:14,480
How does it?
Operate Amen to the priesthood

1653
01:46:14,480 --> 01:46:18,080
when you exercise any, any
degree of the priesthood in

1654
01:46:18,080 --> 01:46:19,320
unrighteousness.
Right.

1655
01:46:19,360 --> 01:46:23,000
So it's a it's a responsibility
put upon men in the temple.

1656
01:46:23,160 --> 01:46:27,280
Yep, it is a huge
responsibility. 100%.

1657
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:30,280
When our wives covenant to obey
us.

1658
01:46:30,680 --> 01:46:35,440
Yep, as we are obeying because
now we have this serious

1659
01:46:35,440 --> 01:46:38,640
responsibility to not only have
a good relationship with God,

1660
01:46:39,080 --> 01:46:41,920
but to have a correct
relationship with our wives.

1661
01:46:42,080 --> 01:46:45,680
Yep, so that we can guide them
and, and, and help them and

1662
01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:51,360
learn from them as well.
Yep, and we just threw that all

1663
01:46:51,360 --> 01:46:55,280
away. 100%.
To accommodate the world.

1664
01:46:56,600 --> 01:47:01,080
Yep.
So for people in the LDS church

1665
01:47:01,080 --> 01:47:04,000
that are struggling with these
things, with the direction

1666
01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:07,840
things are going with the their
concerns for the safety of their

1667
01:47:07,840 --> 01:47:13,960
family, whether physical safety
with this culture that allows

1668
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:21,720
abuse or spiritual safety of can
you, can you trust that the

1669
01:47:21,720 --> 01:47:25,520
church isn't going to normalize
these spiritually?

1670
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:31,080
Damn, I think it was.
Oh, who's that guy?

1671
01:47:31,440 --> 01:47:34,680
That liberal news guy.
Bill Maher.

1672
01:47:34,920 --> 01:47:37,600
Bill Maher.
Bill Maher was talking about

1673
01:47:37,600 --> 01:47:40,280
like, what is going on in the
world, right, Right.

1674
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:42,760
If, if, if you're just born that
way.

1675
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:46,480
If you're just born that way,
what is going on?

1676
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:48,600
Right, right.
Because you look at the

1677
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:51,080
percentage of people that have
these things and you look at

1678
01:47:51,080 --> 01:47:53,920
where we're at now, it doesn't
make sense.

1679
01:47:54,560 --> 01:47:56,480
No.
It doesn't make sense.

1680
01:47:56,480 --> 01:47:58,640
No.
And it's interesting when guys

1681
01:47:58,640 --> 01:48:02,800
like Bill Maher start to
recognize like, oh, oh, this,

1682
01:48:02,800 --> 01:48:05,360
this has gone horribly wrong.
Right, Right.

1683
01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:07,840
And And look, he's still not a
conservative.

1684
01:48:07,840 --> 01:48:10,200
I'm not saying he's a
conservative, but I do believe

1685
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:13,400
he's an honest broker, right?
He's at least honest enough to

1686
01:48:13,400 --> 01:48:15,640
say, yeah, there's some stuff
wrong here.

1687
01:48:15,720 --> 01:48:22,520
So Richard Dawkins, the
grandfather of anti religion,

1688
01:48:22,880 --> 01:48:27,480
Yep at all levels.
This guy made his career, Yep,

1689
01:48:27,600 --> 01:48:30,520
out of trying to destroy
religion, has now come out and

1690
01:48:30,520 --> 01:48:34,080
said, you know what, Maybe
Christianity is not so bad.

1691
01:48:35,000 --> 01:48:36,920
Yeah.
Maybe it's not so bad because

1692
01:48:36,920 --> 01:48:40,440
I'm looking at the world today
and I and it looks like it's

1693
01:48:40,440 --> 01:48:42,720
kind of faultless.
Civilization seems to be falling

1694
01:48:42,720 --> 01:48:46,360
apart and maybe religion had a
purpose after all.

1695
01:48:46,360 --> 01:48:50,960
I don't believe it still, but
geez, maybe we kind of need it.

1696
01:48:51,640 --> 01:48:56,400
Yes.
Even Richard Dawkins of all

1697
01:48:56,400 --> 01:49:00,080
people.
Not not exactly known for

1698
01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:01,960
hanging with the Pope, you know
what I mean?

1699
01:49:02,160 --> 01:49:06,600
Yeah, Is recognizing that, hey,
you know what, maybe having

1700
01:49:06,640 --> 01:49:11,960
religious convictions to truth,
maybe these outdated morality

1701
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:14,840
guidelines, maybe those were a
good thing.

1702
01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:18,040
You know, it reminds me of a
scene from the greatest

1703
01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:23,400
Christmas movie of all time, Die
Hard when you remember when like

1704
01:49:23,400 --> 01:49:27,400
the cops car gets like blown up
and Bruce Willis sticks his head

1705
01:49:27,400 --> 01:49:30,560
out the window and goes welcome
to the party, pal.

1706
01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:33,280
Right.
That's how I feel with Dawkins

1707
01:49:33,280 --> 01:49:37,440
and Mark.
I'm glad they're here, but sure

1708
01:49:37,440 --> 01:49:39,600
could have used you about seven
years ago.

1709
01:49:39,600 --> 01:49:40,760
Right.
You spent your whole life

1710
01:49:40,760 --> 01:49:42,920
tearing this down and all of a
sudden you're realizing you know

1711
01:49:42,920 --> 01:49:45,080
what?
We kind of need that maybe.

1712
01:49:45,080 --> 01:49:46,920
That was actually vital to
society.

1713
01:49:47,200 --> 01:49:48,280
Right.
Yep.

1714
01:49:48,840 --> 01:49:53,040
Maybe it was vital to society.
So what do you do?

1715
01:49:53,160 --> 01:49:55,440
Where do you go?
You know, it's an interesting

1716
01:49:55,440 --> 01:49:57,560
conundrum, right?
Because we illuminated part of

1717
01:49:57,560 --> 01:49:58,440
it, right?
Yeah.

1718
01:49:58,440 --> 01:50:01,760
You have a people in the LDS
church right now, a segment of

1719
01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:05,520
them, and I think that segment
is going to grow if the trend

1720
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:07,600
continues.
Yeah, right.

1721
01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:10,400
Look, I've, I've showed you my
emails, right?

1722
01:50:10,720 --> 01:50:15,600
They are plentiful, and they are
abundant and rich with angst.

1723
01:50:15,800 --> 01:50:18,480
Well, you've told me about them.
You haven't shared the per SE.

1724
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:20,320
Right.
Yeah, No, I've, I've shared a

1725
01:50:20,320 --> 01:50:29,320
couple with you, the, the more
compelling ones and the the the

1726
01:50:29,320 --> 01:50:33,360
other thing is, is that, you
know, if you're an LDS person

1727
01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:36,480
coming out of the the the
church, all you know of

1728
01:50:36,480 --> 01:50:38,640
fundamentalism is Warren Jeffs,
right?

1729
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:41,920
And if if.
It's easy to reject that too.

1730
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:43,440
Right.
And it's easy to reject that

1731
01:50:43,440 --> 01:50:45,080
too, as you should.
As you should.

1732
01:50:45,360 --> 01:50:50,880
Right.
And so it feels precarious,

1733
01:50:51,200 --> 01:50:55,160
right, having been in that
space, it feels precarious

1734
01:50:55,160 --> 01:50:58,000
because you don't know where to
go.

1735
01:50:58,280 --> 01:51:03,600
And there is a breach, right?
There's a breach between the LDS

1736
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:08,680
church and these old school
doctrines and fundamentalism.

1737
01:51:09,720 --> 01:51:15,560
And what you're going to about
to talk about is how do we build

1738
01:51:15,560 --> 01:51:17,760
that bridge across that bridge?
Exactly.

1739
01:51:18,200 --> 01:51:20,120
It's about building a bridge,
right?

1740
01:51:20,720 --> 01:51:26,040
And basically the the impression
that I got was we need an

1741
01:51:26,040 --> 01:51:31,560
organization and not just me.
I'm I am not a prophet.

1742
01:51:32,800 --> 01:51:35,840
I am not a one man.
Come on dude, I was ready for

1743
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:37,800
you to throw down.
You're the one mighty and strong

1744
01:51:37,800 --> 01:51:39,520
right here.
I am the one mighty, I'm the

1745
01:51:39,520 --> 01:51:43,880
Lamanite prophet and I've got
all the answers.

1746
01:51:43,920 --> 01:51:46,840
I don't have all the answers,
but what I do know is that

1747
01:51:46,840 --> 01:51:49,120
people need to be able to take
responsibility for themselves

1748
01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:56,000
and I want to assist that it any
possible way that I can.

1749
01:51:56,000 --> 01:51:59,440
That's where I feel called.
I didn't feel called to join a

1750
01:51:59,440 --> 01:52:01,520
specific group in
fundamentalism.

1751
01:52:02,080 --> 01:52:05,080
I've I've maintained, I've
maintained my independence.

1752
01:52:06,040 --> 01:52:09,600
There are a lot of good people
in fundamentalism though, and

1753
01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:13,440
there's a lot of good here, but
it can be really hard to make

1754
01:52:13,440 --> 01:52:15,680
that transition.
Oh, absolutely.

1755
01:52:16,240 --> 01:52:21,120
You know, I, I've talked, I've
had the opportunity to associate

1756
01:52:21,120 --> 01:52:24,120
with a lot of, of different
fundamentalists, although I'm in

1757
01:52:24,120 --> 01:52:27,000
a different place because I was
just the moron who happened to

1758
01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:30,680
say, yeah, I'll start a podcast
about this, right?

1759
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:39,000
I mean, so there there was that.
But being super outgoing is

1760
01:52:39,480 --> 01:52:42,320
definitely A+, but not all
people are super outgoing,

1761
01:52:42,320 --> 01:52:45,840
right?
Yeah, I'm, I understand I'm kind

1762
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:50,160
of an outlier in that, right.
And so for your average,

1763
01:52:50,160 --> 01:52:53,320
run-of-the-mill member, they're
they're left wondering, what do

1764
01:52:53,320 --> 01:52:54,960
we do?
Right.

1765
01:52:55,560 --> 01:52:58,320
And this is what I really did on
this idea when you told me.

1766
01:52:58,720 --> 01:53:01,160
And like you said, there's
already a lot of great groups.

1767
01:53:01,160 --> 01:53:02,440
We don't need another church.
Nope.

1768
01:53:02,440 --> 01:53:07,880
Nope.
So the idea here is a ministry.

1769
01:53:08,360 --> 01:53:11,000
OK, explain the difference
between a ministry and a church

1770
01:53:12,200 --> 01:53:15,040
well.
They're kind of the same thing

1771
01:53:15,040 --> 01:53:18,200
in a lot of ways, but the idea
behind a ministry is it's got a

1772
01:53:18,200 --> 01:53:22,440
focused purpose.
And that's the difference here

1773
01:53:22,440 --> 01:53:27,240
is the the intended focus.
So in the we talked about this a

1774
01:53:27,240 --> 01:53:33,000
little bit with this idea of the
Orthodox Church, how it looks to

1775
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:37,040
me like the original idea here
in early Christianity was you

1776
01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:40,200
had different bishops in charge
of different congregations.

1777
01:53:40,200 --> 01:53:45,880
And they were, well, they were
the priesthood leaders and they

1778
01:53:45,880 --> 01:53:49,360
were responsible.
And you got Paul running around

1779
01:53:49,680 --> 01:53:53,320
trying to teach him as best as
he could to help him get there.

1780
01:53:53,320 --> 01:53:59,000
And at some point, the church in
Rome says, actually our guy is

1781
01:53:59,000 --> 01:54:03,080
the one guy and all of
everything else everybody else

1782
01:54:03,080 --> 01:54:09,760
is doing is invalid.
But then even within the

1783
01:54:09,760 --> 01:54:11,880
Catholic Church, you have
different groups.

1784
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:15,840
You have hospitals.
That's a ministry.

1785
01:54:16,760 --> 01:54:21,000
They're like, we're Catholics,
but we're really concerned about

1786
01:54:21,440 --> 01:54:24,520
people being sick.
And we want to heal people who

1787
01:54:24,520 --> 01:54:27,720
are physically I'll.
OK, so I see.

1788
01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:34,200
So it it would be it would be a
common religious belief held by

1789
01:54:34,200 --> 01:54:38,720
many, but a separate group
dedicated to 1 certain.

1790
01:54:38,720 --> 01:54:45,120
Thing kind of a specific aspect
and I it is absolutely my faith

1791
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:50,880
and and and belief that at some
point we are going to have a

1792
01:54:50,920 --> 01:54:55,520
gathering at Adam on diamond and
all of this stuff is eventually

1793
01:54:55,520 --> 01:54:59,240
going to get put in order.
We're going to have that

1794
01:54:59,680 --> 01:55:05,440
reconnection with that divine,
but a lot of people are sitting

1795
01:55:05,440 --> 01:55:08,360
around waiting for it.
I've been sitting around waiting

1796
01:55:08,360 --> 01:55:13,640
for it, and the Spirit's
whispering to me that you have

1797
01:55:13,640 --> 01:55:18,560
been given the priesthood, you
have a responsibility to serve.

1798
01:55:19,200 --> 01:55:23,280
When we look at what Jacob talks
about in the Book of Mormon, he

1799
01:55:23,280 --> 01:55:29,080
wasted and wore out his life to
magnify his priests of calling.

1800
01:55:29,680 --> 01:55:32,480
And as an independent, as an
independent fundamentalist, it's

1801
01:55:32,480 --> 01:55:36,720
really hard to do that.
It's now just me and my family.

1802
01:55:39,560 --> 01:55:43,720
I don't have, we don't have that
body of believers to work with,

1803
01:55:44,600 --> 01:55:52,200
to learn from, to teach.
So the idea here is a ministry

1804
01:55:53,960 --> 01:55:59,000
for not just our LDS brothers
and sisters, but also for

1805
01:55:59,320 --> 01:56:02,640
independents like me, people
that are parts of groups like

1806
01:56:02,640 --> 01:56:12,880
you, a collaborative effort to
bring in a fullness of the

1807
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:15,600
gospel.
And don't get me wrong, I love

1808
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:19,080
the fundamentalist groups.
A lot of them struggle with

1809
01:56:19,080 --> 01:56:21,760
stuff like missionary work.
And I look at the LDS church.

1810
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:24,200
It does missionary work so well.
Right.

1811
01:56:25,280 --> 01:56:27,680
Why can't we have both?
Gotcha.

1812
01:56:28,760 --> 01:56:31,040
Wouldn't we be stronger coming
together?

1813
01:56:31,600 --> 01:56:34,040
And if you know anything about
the history of fundamentalism

1814
01:56:35,520 --> 01:56:38,680
it, it's Mormonism in general,
not just fundamentalism.

1815
01:56:39,440 --> 01:56:43,080
Mormonism is really good at
breaking off right about

1816
01:56:43,360 --> 01:56:45,320
irreconcilable differences in
saying.

1817
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:47,120
That I would say Christianity in
general.

1818
01:56:47,120 --> 01:56:50,680
Christianity generally, yeah.
This is just something that part

1819
01:56:50,680 --> 01:56:52,280
of the natural man.
Right.

1820
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:56,640
That says I think I'm right and
therefore everybody else is

1821
01:56:56,640 --> 01:57:00,960
wrong. 100% Yep.
And I'm thinking we have more in

1822
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:03,400
common than we have different,
right?

1823
01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:06,400
Even with the LDS Church, we
have more in common than we have

1824
01:57:06,400 --> 01:57:14,160
different, sure.
But to truly receive the

1825
01:57:14,160 --> 01:57:17,760
fullness of the Restoration, to
receive all that was restored

1826
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:25,640
that God has in plan for us, we
need to come together.

1827
01:57:26,920 --> 01:57:31,560
And the idea behind this
ministry is, on the one hand,

1828
01:57:31,560 --> 01:57:37,400
this is a place for people like
me when I came out of the LDS

1829
01:57:37,400 --> 01:57:41,360
Church, to be able to be a part
of something, to have some

1830
01:57:41,360 --> 01:57:46,680
structure and to have an
opportunity to commune with the

1831
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:51,840
Saints got you and not have to
do it alone.

1832
01:57:53,400 --> 01:57:58,040
And it's also an opportunity for
those who do have who have have

1833
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:02,480
preserved through great
sacrifice, have preserved the

1834
01:58:02,480 --> 01:58:08,640
fullness of the gospel to be
able to be of service, to help

1835
01:58:08,640 --> 01:58:14,160
teach, to help minister, to
serve and maybe try and bring

1836
01:58:16,320 --> 01:58:20,040
bring this all back together and
in a way that.

1837
01:58:21,040 --> 01:58:23,440
Or at least a segment.
Of us, at least a segment of us

1838
01:58:24,040 --> 01:58:27,920
and and show that we can make
this work that we can we can

1839
01:58:27,920 --> 01:58:36,920
have differences of of
individual doctrine, but we can

1840
01:58:36,920 --> 01:58:41,560
be unified on a a standard.
OK, so you're not talking about

1841
01:58:41,560 --> 01:58:45,360
when you say unifying, you're
not talking about all the

1842
01:58:45,360 --> 01:58:48,480
churches uniting under 1 banner?
No.

1843
01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:51,720
OK.
No, I and I think it's OK to

1844
01:58:51,720 --> 01:58:54,880
have different flavors, you
know, of, of Mormonism.

1845
01:58:55,000 --> 01:58:58,360
When I first started this
podcast, I lamented the fact we

1846
01:58:58,360 --> 01:59:02,560
were so fractured.
Today I kind of celebrate that.

1847
01:59:02,920 --> 01:59:08,000
There's a beauty to.
It right, because because I'm

1848
01:59:08,000 --> 01:59:11,760
not in here and, and, and I'm
sorry to anybody who is and and

1849
01:59:11,760 --> 01:59:15,720
I don't mean this as a critique,
but because I'm not A1 manner

1850
01:59:17,680 --> 01:59:20,640
that frees me up to look at a
lot of different places and go.

1851
01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:24,440
You know what?
There's beauty in that group

1852
01:59:24,520 --> 01:59:27,320
that out there in Missouri that
built that temple.

1853
01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:30,960
And you know what?
There's beauty and goodness in

1854
01:59:30,960 --> 01:59:36,920
the Nielsen Naylors and the the
the folks at, at you know, that

1855
01:59:36,920 --> 01:59:40,400
I've talked to from the AUB,
good people, really good, right,

1856
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:43,280
folks from the LDS church.
I love them, right?

1857
01:59:45,120 --> 01:59:47,400
Groups.
I used to associate with a lot

1858
01:59:47,400 --> 01:59:50,800
of good people there, a lot of
good people, right?

1859
01:59:51,120 --> 01:59:53,560
And so I can appreciate the
beauty and the goodness.

1860
01:59:53,560 --> 01:59:56,480
And because I believe that
priesthood authority was spread

1861
01:59:56,480 --> 02:00:01,520
around, I don't have to just
discount when they say, oh, I've

1862
02:00:01,520 --> 02:00:05,000
been baptized or I've been
endowed, right.

1863
02:00:05,400 --> 02:00:06,920
OK, good.
Great, I.

1864
02:00:07,760 --> 02:00:12,760
Can let's hang Yeah right.
And, and because I don't hold to

1865
02:00:12,760 --> 02:00:17,200
this, this idea that, Oh no,
there's just this one man and

1866
02:00:17,200 --> 02:00:18,960
he's got it.
And if you're outside the one

1867
02:00:18,960 --> 02:00:22,880
man, you're screwed, right?
And so you're not necessarily

1868
02:00:22,880 --> 02:00:25,440
and and I don't want to put
words in your mouth, but you're

1869
02:00:25,440 --> 02:00:29,160
not, you're not talking about
everybody coming together under

1870
02:00:29,160 --> 02:00:33,280
a one man or even A1 council.
No, but I am talking about we

1871
02:00:33,280 --> 02:00:38,680
can all come together as
inheritors of this restoration

1872
02:00:39,800 --> 02:00:45,880
as as people that have been
blessed with the restoration of

1873
02:00:45,880 --> 02:00:49,400
the gospel and the fullness of
the gospel and that we can work

1874
02:00:49,400 --> 02:00:52,720
together, we can respect each
other and we can be, we can be

1875
02:00:52,720 --> 02:00:54,320
different.
Yes, yeah.

1876
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:58,880
OK, so that's OK.
So look, when you first brought

1877
02:00:58,880 --> 02:01:00,760
this to me, I was nervous a
little bit, right?

1878
02:01:00,760 --> 02:01:04,080
Because I'm like, ah, bro, where
you going?

1879
02:01:04,280 --> 02:01:05,720
Right.
That was my first thought.

1880
02:01:05,720 --> 02:01:10,400
Where you going?
But as, as you explained it to

1881
02:01:10,400 --> 02:01:13,600
me and I've seen it now start to
be put into action because it's

1882
02:01:13,600 --> 02:01:16,600
quite a ways here, right?
You're not here unless you're

1883
02:01:16,920 --> 02:01:23,640
darn close, right?
Tell me what the, what, what the

1884
02:01:23,640 --> 02:01:26,440
purpose of the ministry will be.
Explain it.

1885
02:01:26,920 --> 02:01:30,600
Right.
So this is, and there's a reason

1886
02:01:30,600 --> 02:01:33,360
I'm going with ministry and not
church, OK?

1887
02:01:33,440 --> 02:01:37,720
Because in Mormonism, we get
this idea that the church is

1888
02:01:38,120 --> 02:01:42,400
this institution that has all
the answers and all the

1889
02:01:42,400 --> 02:01:45,560
responsibility.
And I'm not claiming to have

1890
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:48,080
that.
I'm not, again, I'm not a

1891
02:01:48,080 --> 02:01:51,320
prophet.
I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not,

1892
02:01:51,320 --> 02:01:54,600
I'm not this guy that meets with
Jesus and, and has all the

1893
02:01:54,600 --> 02:02:00,960
answers for everybody.
But there needs to be a place.

1894
02:02:01,800 --> 02:02:05,920
There needs to be a place for
people who want to learn about

1895
02:02:05,920 --> 02:02:08,960
the fullness of the gospel, and
there needs to be a place there

1896
02:02:08,960 --> 02:02:12,800
needs to be a a flavor of
Mormonism for those of us who

1897
02:02:13,640 --> 02:02:21,240
are solid on ideas like family,
that are solid on ordinances and

1898
02:02:21,240 --> 02:02:26,320
want to be able to receive the
ordinances as they were given to

1899
02:02:26,320 --> 02:02:28,280
us.
Brigham Young was specifically

1900
02:02:28,280 --> 02:02:32,360
commissioned by Joseph Smith to
finish off that endowment and

1901
02:02:32,360 --> 02:02:33,920
organize that, put that
together.

1902
02:02:34,880 --> 02:02:40,720
I don't, I, I know for myself I
would want to receive that

1903
02:02:40,720 --> 02:02:44,800
endowment that Brigham Young
restored for us.

1904
02:02:46,080 --> 02:02:54,400
And if, where can I get that?
I want to live a according to

1905
02:02:54,520 --> 02:02:58,400
the laws and principles that God
has laid forth.

1906
02:02:59,160 --> 02:03:03,520
Where, where can you do that?
I want to be able to worship in

1907
02:03:03,520 --> 02:03:09,440
a community where I'm not, where
there's not a policy in that

1908
02:03:09,440 --> 02:03:14,400
organization that can lead to
abuses or allow for the

1909
02:03:14,800 --> 02:03:24,240
infiltration of a very liberal
agenda that wants to remake our

1910
02:03:24,240 --> 02:03:27,360
religion into something that is
acceptable to the world.

1911
02:03:28,280 --> 02:03:30,600
Or even someone who wants to
police your thought and your

1912
02:03:30,600 --> 02:03:32,440
beliefs.
Or police your thoughts and

1913
02:03:32,440 --> 02:03:33,480
beliefs.
Yeah.

1914
02:03:34,080 --> 02:03:39,960
So ultimately, if you are, if
you are a Mormon, you are

1915
02:03:39,960 --> 02:03:42,680
independent.
You might not realize this yet,

1916
02:03:42,800 --> 02:03:45,120
but you are.
You are independent because you

1917
02:03:45,120 --> 02:03:47,360
are responsible.
Right.

1918
02:03:48,040 --> 02:03:50,200
And you'll you will be held
accountable.

1919
02:03:51,000 --> 02:04:02,040
OK, so as people come to this
organization, this ministry, the

1920
02:04:02,040 --> 02:04:05,360
idea behind it, and again, not
putting words in your mouth, I

1921
02:04:05,360 --> 02:04:10,960
want to make sure I'm clear on
this, is that it's, oh, as

1922
02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:12,880
you've explained it to me
before, it's almost like a

1923
02:04:12,880 --> 02:04:15,040
spiritual triage unit.
Right.

1924
02:04:15,440 --> 02:04:18,280
Right.
People are going to come in,

1925
02:04:19,040 --> 02:04:21,400
right?
And they're going to be needing

1926
02:04:21,400 --> 02:04:25,120
to know about all these old
doctrines, right?

1927
02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:30,040
And, and be taught about them.
And also a place where you can

1928
02:04:30,040 --> 02:04:36,480
just go and worship with, with
other people and bounce ideas

1929
02:04:36,480 --> 02:04:41,440
off of.
And then from there people can

1930
02:04:41,440 --> 02:04:44,520
start to get their legs under
them again, get their sea legs

1931
02:04:44,520 --> 02:04:47,440
back and say, OK, you know what?
Maybe I should go with the

1932
02:04:47,440 --> 02:04:49,000
Nielsen nailers?
Right.

1933
02:04:49,080 --> 02:04:51,760
I like that those folks out
there in Missouri, I'll go with

1934
02:04:51,760 --> 02:04:55,000
them.
Or, you know, gosh, Joshua

1935
02:04:55,000 --> 02:04:58,400
Erickson seems to do a real good
job of being an independent or

1936
02:04:58,400 --> 02:05:01,720
Justin and I can pick their
brains and find out how they do

1937
02:05:01,720 --> 02:05:03,880
it.
And so this will give people a

1938
02:05:03,880 --> 02:05:09,520
chance to come into some place.
But let's face it,

1939
02:05:09,520 --> 02:05:12,360
fundamentalism is its own
society, just like the oldest

1940
02:05:12,360 --> 02:05:14,240
churches, right?
There's a culture, There's a

1941
02:05:14,240 --> 02:05:17,880
culture.
And, and to come in cold, I

1942
02:05:17,880 --> 02:05:21,200
mean, look, unless you're
extremely obtuse like this guy,

1943
02:05:22,680 --> 02:05:27,160
you're, you're going to be
uncomfortable asking questions

1944
02:05:27,160 --> 02:05:29,200
because you don't even know what
questions you should or can't

1945
02:05:29,200 --> 02:05:30,760
ask, right?
Right.

1946
02:05:31,200 --> 02:05:36,520
This gives a place for people to
go in the interim of finding

1947
02:05:36,520 --> 02:05:40,800
where else they want to be, a
chance to get their feet under

1948
02:05:40,800 --> 02:05:42,640
them again.
Is that a fair assessment?

1949
02:05:42,800 --> 02:05:43,840
Exactly.
And.

1950
02:05:43,840 --> 02:05:46,080
A place where we can come
together and worship together,

1951
02:05:46,080 --> 02:05:49,800
right?
So if you need ordinances done,

1952
02:05:50,520 --> 02:05:52,280
we'll be able to connect you
with the people to get the

1953
02:05:52,280 --> 02:05:57,160
ordinances you need.
If but also an organization that

1954
02:05:57,160 --> 02:05:59,720
gives responsibility back to the
priesthood.

1955
02:06:00,480 --> 02:06:03,960
So rather than a a hierarchical
organization where you've got

1956
02:06:04,000 --> 02:06:06,480
somebody at the top telling
everybody else what they need to

1957
02:06:06,480 --> 02:06:11,800
do, my vision is an organization
that will empower people to

1958
02:06:11,800 --> 02:06:16,080
exercise their own priesthood.
If you feel like your child is

1959
02:06:16,080 --> 02:06:18,640
ready to be baptized, that
that's the, that's the parents

1960
02:06:18,640 --> 02:06:21,560
decision, right?
That's not an organization's

1961
02:06:21,560 --> 02:06:23,400
decision.
The organization should be there

1962
02:06:23,400 --> 02:06:25,720
to support you in that and help
you with that if you need it.

1963
02:06:25,720 --> 02:06:32,040
But that's that's up to you.
So all of these things,

1964
02:06:32,040 --> 02:06:35,000
priesthood ordinations, if
you're not sure if your priest

1965
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:37,960
is legitimate, what do you do?
Right?

1966
02:06:38,560 --> 02:06:42,600
Well, we have priesthood lines
in fundamentalism that we that

1967
02:06:42,600 --> 02:06:44,560
we are confident in.
Yep.

1968
02:06:44,680 --> 02:06:47,880
If you want to be reconfirmed,
this will be a place you can go

1969
02:06:47,880 --> 02:06:50,160
to be reconfirmed.
Re baptized.

1970
02:06:50,200 --> 02:06:54,320
Re baptized if you want to, if
you have faith in your

1971
02:06:54,320 --> 02:06:56,640
priesthood, if you have faith in
your baptism, you have faith in

1972
02:06:56,640 --> 02:06:58,680
your ordinances, that's OK too,
right?

1973
02:06:59,160 --> 02:07:02,200
This wouldn't be an organization
telling you how you need to live

1974
02:07:02,200 --> 02:07:04,600
your life.
This is an this is an

1975
02:07:04,600 --> 02:07:11,040
organization that is going to
empower you and assist you in

1976
02:07:11,720 --> 02:07:17,040
learning how to take that
responsibility back, how to be a

1977
02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:21,400
priesthood leader.
So let's talk about the

1978
02:07:21,400 --> 02:07:24,600
structure a little bit because I
think that's where where at

1979
02:07:24,600 --> 02:07:29,800
least my mind went next right is
OK, is there going to be a one

1980
02:07:29,800 --> 02:07:32,560
man?
Absolutely not.

1981
02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:33,280
OK.
Nope.

1982
02:07:33,520 --> 02:07:36,160
Nope.
So to be clear, the this

1983
02:07:36,160 --> 02:07:39,600
organization is being LED up by
a board of directors right now.

1984
02:07:39,600 --> 02:07:42,240
And here's the thing, I don't
have all the answers.

1985
02:07:42,720 --> 02:07:46,840
This is going to be a little bit
of an adventure for everybody

1986
02:07:46,840 --> 02:07:49,880
involved, including me,
including Dave.

1987
02:07:50,680 --> 02:07:52,440
Yep.
So right now we have a board of

1988
02:07:52,440 --> 02:07:58,920
directors or we've got me and
Moroni Jessup and we're we're

1989
02:07:58,920 --> 02:08:02,600
independent fundamentalists.
We also have on that board Dave

1990
02:08:03,480 --> 02:08:07,800
and we've got Sean Anderson and
they're with this the, the, the,

1991
02:08:09,040 --> 02:08:12,040
I forget the official name, but.
The Missouri group or the

1992
02:08:12,040 --> 02:08:15,600
Missouri group slash lobs, Yeah.
Missouri group slash lobs and

1993
02:08:15,600 --> 02:08:18,720
we've got Taylor Smith, Who's
the Nelson Naylor and both of

1994
02:08:18,720 --> 02:08:21,880
those organizations, the the
the, the group out here and the

1995
02:08:21,880 --> 02:08:27,000
Nielsen nailers have shown their
support.

1996
02:08:27,480 --> 02:08:28,840
Right.
And yeah.

1997
02:08:29,160 --> 02:08:32,120
They're not officially backing
this, right, But they're they

1998
02:08:32,120 --> 02:08:36,720
are willing to let their members
assist in this work

1999
02:08:37,080 --> 02:08:38,640
collaboratively.
Yep.

2000
02:08:39,000 --> 02:08:43,040
And that's a really a pretty
miraculous thing.

2001
02:08:43,040 --> 02:08:45,800
That is a miraculous thing to.
Bring together these two

2002
02:08:45,800 --> 02:08:48,320
different groups and independent
fundamentalists.

2003
02:08:48,880 --> 02:08:50,960
Yep, Yep.
And just say, let's work

2004
02:08:50,960 --> 02:08:53,480
together where we can.
Yeah, let's work together where

2005
02:08:53,480 --> 02:08:58,520
we can.
OK, so tell me about how it's

2006
02:08:58,520 --> 02:08:59,920
organized then.
Right.

2007
02:08:59,920 --> 02:09:03,800
Because it's one thing to have
some people come together and

2008
02:09:03,800 --> 02:09:07,880
say, OK, now we're going to work
together, but you can't really

2009
02:09:07,880 --> 02:09:11,200
work together unless there's
kind of some organization to

2010
02:09:11,200 --> 02:09:12,560
folks, right?
Yeah.

2011
02:09:12,800 --> 02:09:15,840
So let let's talk about the
different organizations that are

2012
02:09:15,840 --> 02:09:18,240
going to be offered in this
ministry for a second.

2013
02:09:18,400 --> 02:09:22,280
Right.
So right now, we've got 5 main

2014
02:09:22,520 --> 02:09:24,120
auxiliaries to this
organization.

2015
02:09:24,120 --> 02:09:27,160
OK, what are those?
We have a woman's organization,

2016
02:09:28,240 --> 02:09:30,080
a type of release society for
women.

2017
02:09:30,640 --> 02:09:34,480
We have a male priesthood
organization like Elders Quorum.

2018
02:09:35,080 --> 02:09:38,200
OK.
That and these two organizations

2019
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:42,000
are going to be responsible to
help build brotherhood and

2020
02:09:42,000 --> 02:09:46,880
sisterhood among each other and
to provide opportunities to

2021
02:09:47,960 --> 02:09:52,320
serve and assist and be a part
of this work like this isn't.

2022
02:09:53,240 --> 02:09:55,840
Here's the other thing.
I don't think that you really

2023
02:09:56,640 --> 02:10:01,240
grow and learn outside of doing.
I agree.

2024
02:10:02,320 --> 02:10:05,720
I agree at some point.
You got to be involved.

2025
02:10:05,880 --> 02:10:07,920
You got to screw some stuff up,
right?

2026
02:10:07,920 --> 02:10:09,480
I don't know how else to put it
right.

2027
02:10:09,600 --> 02:10:16,200
I know every time I get a new
guy that comes to work for me, I

2028
02:10:16,200 --> 02:10:18,400
train him.
I never set him up for failure.

2029
02:10:19,120 --> 02:10:22,040
But I do expect they're going to
screw some stuff up, and that's

2030
02:10:22,040 --> 02:10:24,800
good because that's how they're
going to learn, right?

2031
02:10:24,800 --> 02:10:28,520
And so this is a place where
people can come to gain that

2032
02:10:28,520 --> 02:10:33,680
experience that they can't gain
in the LDS Church from from

2033
02:10:33,680 --> 02:10:35,640
their college, right?
Everything is so highly

2034
02:10:35,640 --> 02:10:39,760
correlated now that yes, they
have taken out the ability to

2035
02:10:39,760 --> 02:10:44,560
make a mistake, but they have
also taken out the ability to

2036
02:10:44,560 --> 02:10:46,800
really grow and learn from
mistakes.

2037
02:10:47,160 --> 02:10:51,120
Right the church is a is
supposed to be an organization

2038
02:10:51,120 --> 02:10:53,320
that allows us to be Co
creators.

2039
02:10:53,320 --> 02:10:57,280
Yes.
And in everything else in the

2040
02:10:57,280 --> 02:11:00,280
world, we've become cogs.
And in religion as well, for a

2041
02:11:00,280 --> 02:11:02,720
lot of us, we we become cogs in
the machine.

2042
02:11:03,520 --> 02:11:08,720
We're not Co creating.
We are following the rules,

2043
02:11:08,720 --> 02:11:10,680
we're following a handbook,
we're following the lesson

2044
02:11:10,680 --> 02:11:14,200
manual.
And we don't have an opportunity

2045
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:27,040
to experience that our own
connection with God and to learn

2046
02:11:27,040 --> 02:11:30,320
what God would teach us, right?
And we're going to make mistakes

2047
02:11:30,320 --> 02:11:32,360
in that process.
Absolutely.

2048
02:11:32,360 --> 02:11:34,520
We are all going to make
mistakes in that process.

2049
02:11:35,120 --> 02:11:38,120
But that's again, going back to
this doctrine of repentance,

2050
02:11:38,560 --> 02:11:41,400
right?
There's no shame in being the

2051
02:11:41,400 --> 02:11:43,720
fallen man or a fallen woman.
Right.

2052
02:11:45,120 --> 02:11:48,680
As long as we're willing to get
back up again, yeah, Try it

2053
02:11:48,680 --> 02:11:51,320
again.
That's the plan of salvation.

2054
02:11:51,800 --> 02:11:58,760
100 percent, 100% OK, so.
So we've got a men's and women's

2055
02:11:58,760 --> 02:12:01,040
organization.
OK, the men's organization is

2056
02:12:01,040 --> 02:12:05,680
going to teach, teach guys.
I'm going to go to something

2057
02:12:05,680 --> 02:12:08,960
that Russell M Nelson said once.
Same meeting, by the way, I just

2058
02:12:08,960 --> 02:12:12,920
told you about, right?
He said something that really

2059
02:12:12,920 --> 02:12:15,720
struck me.
And he said, in the church,

2060
02:12:15,720 --> 02:12:19,440
we've been really good at
passing along the authority of

2061
02:12:19,440 --> 02:12:23,440
the priesthood, but we've done a
poor job in teaching men how to

2062
02:12:23,440 --> 02:12:26,360
access the power of the
priesthood.

2063
02:12:26,920 --> 02:12:31,160
Right.
And as as you and I had talked,

2064
02:12:31,160 --> 02:12:35,280
we felt like getting that men's
organization to learn how to tap

2065
02:12:35,280 --> 02:12:39,720
into that power in the
priesthood is a different thing,

2066
02:12:40,600 --> 02:12:43,720
but one that I think people are
so hungry for, right?

2067
02:12:44,480 --> 02:12:50,040
Because we don't see those same
kind of experiences in today's

2068
02:12:50,040 --> 02:12:53,680
Mormonism, by and large, right?
It is out there.

2069
02:12:53,760 --> 02:12:56,360
It is, but it's not as plentiful
as what it was.

2070
02:12:56,440 --> 02:12:59,320
Especially on a mission, right?
But I'll tell you what, on my

2071
02:12:59,320 --> 02:13:03,720
mission, my first mission
president told me where he told

2072
02:13:03,720 --> 02:13:09,520
us missionaries don't ask for
permission if I'm going to have

2073
02:13:09,520 --> 02:13:12,240
to tell you no.
Interesting.

2074
02:13:12,680 --> 02:13:17,080
But at the same time, don't,
don't screw up right, don't

2075
02:13:17,080 --> 02:13:20,520
make, don't make me have to
right, make me have to make

2076
02:13:20,520 --> 02:13:22,680
rules.
Check, check.

2077
02:13:22,680 --> 02:13:24,320
I get what he's doing there,
right?

2078
02:13:24,320 --> 02:13:25,840
Yeah.
I, I I get what he's doing

2079
02:13:25,840 --> 02:13:27,000
there.
You get what he's doing there.

2080
02:13:27,040 --> 02:13:30,720
Yeah.
So, so that's, that's two of the

2081
02:13:30,720 --> 02:13:33,600
organizations now is, is the
women's organization, is it

2082
02:13:33,600 --> 02:13:35,640
going to function like a Relief
society?

2083
02:13:35,640 --> 02:13:37,200
Is that kind of what we're
looking at?

2084
02:13:37,280 --> 02:13:42,080
I I believe so.
But even here I so when you look

2085
02:13:42,080 --> 02:13:44,200
back to the original Relief
Society, right?

2086
02:13:44,520 --> 02:13:47,000
Joseph Smith wanted to call it
the Benevolent Society.

2087
02:13:47,320 --> 02:13:50,120
Right.
And Emma Smith decided, no,

2088
02:13:50,120 --> 02:13:52,120
we're, we're going to call this
the Relief Society.

2089
02:13:53,160 --> 02:13:57,320
And you look at the original
ideas and purpose of this Relief

2090
02:13:57,320 --> 02:14:00,600
Society and it to a certain
degree, it really is intended to

2091
02:14:00,600 --> 02:14:02,640
be more of a of a female
priesthood.

2092
02:14:03,000 --> 02:14:05,400
Right.
That really was the idea.

2093
02:14:05,400 --> 02:14:09,520
And I'm not saying that you are
gay and women, no, but you but

2094
02:14:09,520 --> 02:14:14,760
women also need opportunities to
have their own stewardships,

2095
02:14:14,960 --> 02:14:19,280
their own responsibilities.
And again, in the LDS church, I

2096
02:14:19,280 --> 02:14:22,560
don't know, release society from
from my family.

2097
02:14:22,560 --> 02:14:24,560
I don't know.
I've never been right.

2098
02:14:24,560 --> 02:14:25,840
So I'm happy speaking on a place
here.

2099
02:14:25,840 --> 02:14:29,360
But for a lot of my family, it's
not working for them.

2100
02:14:29,600 --> 02:14:32,040
It's it's a, it's a chore.
Right.

2101
02:14:32,120 --> 02:14:38,880
It's this home making class and
that's not really what they need

2102
02:14:39,640 --> 02:14:41,080
for their own growth and
development.

2103
02:14:42,000 --> 02:14:45,360
And so with this women's
organization as well, we've,

2104
02:14:45,400 --> 02:14:48,960
we've got some women that we
know are grounded and, and we

2105
02:14:48,960 --> 02:14:52,200
trust in the, in the things of
the gospel and the, and the

2106
02:14:52,200 --> 02:14:55,280
doctrine.
And we're going to let the women

2107
02:14:55,880 --> 02:14:58,600
figure that out as as best as
they can as well.

2108
02:14:58,600 --> 02:15:00,840
And we're going to support them
in that, and they're going to

2109
02:15:00,840 --> 02:15:03,680
support us as men.
Yeah, it's been a very hands off

2110
02:15:03,760 --> 02:15:05,720
approach.
It's a very hands off approach

2111
02:15:05,720 --> 02:15:08,200
because I don't think it works
otherwise, no, if I've got to be

2112
02:15:08,200 --> 02:15:12,400
a one man, then it's then then
this thing's going to, it's

2113
02:15:12,400 --> 02:15:13,440
going to fail from the
beginning.

2114
02:15:13,520 --> 02:15:17,000
It's going to become some other
group or or sect, and that's

2115
02:15:17,000 --> 02:15:18,600
not.
What we want to do?

2116
02:15:18,600 --> 02:15:20,680
It's not what I wanted.
It's certainly not what I want

2117
02:15:20,680 --> 02:15:23,320
to be either.
Right, right.

2118
02:15:23,600 --> 02:15:28,400
OK, so those are the 2 main
factions, right?

2119
02:15:28,640 --> 02:15:31,160
Those are the 2 main.
Now there's another one which is

2120
02:15:31,160 --> 02:15:33,960
over education, right?
Yeah, a Sunday school type

2121
02:15:33,960 --> 02:15:37,040
organization that will be
responsible for a, a Sunday

2122
02:15:37,040 --> 02:15:41,080
school and, and Taylor's part of
that group and he's already

2123
02:15:41,080 --> 02:15:43,880
doing these gospel principles
classes and we're going to roll

2124
02:15:43,880 --> 02:15:48,320
that in.
OK is basically our our Sunday

2125
02:15:48,320 --> 02:15:51,840
school, a place where you can
join in and and learn these

2126
02:15:51,840 --> 02:15:56,360
things and participate right.
Like we have.

2127
02:15:56,360 --> 02:15:58,160
I don't if if you haven't men to
Taylor's class.

2128
02:15:58,160 --> 02:16:00,360
We have people in there that
aren't even Mormon.

2129
02:16:00,480 --> 02:16:02,960
Yeah, that.
Come in and share their thoughts

2130
02:16:02,960 --> 02:16:04,880
and ideas and and their
opinions.

2131
02:16:04,920 --> 02:16:07,360
It's been a beautiful experience
to see that work.

2132
02:16:07,360 --> 02:16:10,080
It's been very beautiful to.
See when when Taylor first

2133
02:16:10,080 --> 02:16:14,520
brought that idea up, I'm like,
yes, do that right?

2134
02:16:14,520 --> 02:16:16,040
I mean it.
Yeah, no.

2135
02:16:16,040 --> 02:16:18,240
So that that'll be rolled in
there as well.

2136
02:16:19,280 --> 02:16:23,040
But that he, he's created a
culture in that class where even

2137
02:16:23,040 --> 02:16:28,240
a non member can feel
comfortable saying, Hey, I've

2138
02:16:28,240 --> 02:16:30,600
got a question about this.
I've got a concern about that.

2139
02:16:31,120 --> 02:16:35,120
And we can talk about it and we
can, we can discuss those

2140
02:16:35,120 --> 02:16:37,920
things.
And you're not shamed for asking

2141
02:16:37,920 --> 02:16:41,040
a, a, a, a weird question,
right?

2142
02:16:41,040 --> 02:16:43,639
Or for having trouble
understanding something.

2143
02:16:44,120 --> 02:16:45,200
That's OK.
Right.

2144
02:16:45,200 --> 02:16:49,280
We there have been some deep,
profound conversations through

2145
02:16:49,280 --> 02:16:51,719
that class, which has been
amazing to watch.

2146
02:16:52,040 --> 02:16:54,600
Yeah.
And and again, like you said,

2147
02:16:54,600 --> 02:16:58,200
it's it's everybody, it's LDS
folks, it's fundamentalist.

2148
02:16:58,200 --> 02:17:00,840
It's fundamentalist
investigators.

2149
02:17:00,840 --> 02:17:05,639
It's non Mormons, right?
Just all coming in and and

2150
02:17:06,000 --> 02:17:10,320
there's not been a fight, right?
There's nobody that's been upset

2151
02:17:10,600 --> 02:17:14,240
in terms of, you know, calling
someone else a dirty, filthy

2152
02:17:14,240 --> 02:17:16,920
name, right.
I mean, it's it's been it's been

2153
02:17:16,920 --> 02:17:18,799
very well there.
There's no reason that that

2154
02:17:18,799 --> 02:17:20,160
can't work.
So.

2155
02:17:20,160 --> 02:17:23,240
So that will be there as well.
So you have a men's

2156
02:17:23,240 --> 02:17:27,040
organization, a women's
organization and then a, a, a

2157
02:17:28,360 --> 02:17:29,719
kind of Sunday school.
Yeah.

2158
02:17:29,959 --> 02:17:32,360
OK.
So do people have to move to

2159
02:17:32,360 --> 02:17:34,200
Missouri to do this?
No.

2160
02:17:34,200 --> 02:17:37,719
So we're looking at doing this
through Zoom, at least for now,

2161
02:17:37,959 --> 02:17:42,799
right, To make it accessible for
as many people as possible.

2162
02:17:43,200 --> 02:17:46,400
OK, now I can already hear the
questions coming up.

2163
02:17:47,040 --> 02:17:49,320
I'm already active in my church,
right?

2164
02:17:50,639 --> 02:17:54,559
This sounds cool, but I don't
want to leave what I got right?

2165
02:17:54,559 --> 02:17:56,920
I'm happy there.
How?

2166
02:17:56,920 --> 02:18:00,240
How do they balance this then?
Well, exactly.

2167
02:18:00,240 --> 02:18:05,080
And if you where you're at is
you've got investment in another

2168
02:18:05,080 --> 02:18:10,760
organization, you can still be a
part of this and even with like

2169
02:18:10,799 --> 02:18:13,080
like Taylor Smith.
Taylor Smith is a Nielsen

2170
02:18:13,080 --> 02:18:16,360
Naylor, and that's where that's
where his loyalties lie

2171
02:18:16,360 --> 02:18:21,040
organizationally, but he's still
participating, right?

2172
02:18:21,040 --> 02:18:26,680
So this isn't you've got to be
this or that, but this could be

2173
02:18:26,680 --> 02:18:30,040
something where you can be that
and this.

2174
02:18:30,639 --> 02:18:36,320
And as you work through that,
wherever you land, the point is,

2175
02:18:36,320 --> 02:18:39,320
is that that's where you're
supposed to be.

2176
02:18:39,760 --> 02:18:43,200
So even someone who's in the LDS
church and they want to keep

2177
02:18:43,200 --> 02:18:50,000
attending their Sunday meetings
and come into this, test it out

2178
02:18:50,719 --> 02:18:52,520
and make a decision.
Make a decision.

2179
02:18:52,520 --> 02:18:55,160
Yeah.
And it might be I, I don't know.

2180
02:18:55,200 --> 02:18:57,160
I'm only responsible for myself.
Right.

2181
02:18:57,360 --> 02:18:59,240
Right.
It might be the right place for

2182
02:18:59,240 --> 02:19:02,320
somebody to come into this, get
their footing under them and go

2183
02:19:02,320 --> 02:19:04,520
back into the LDS Church and
make a difference there.

2184
02:19:04,760 --> 02:19:06,400
Right.
I believe that there are people

2185
02:19:06,400 --> 02:19:07,719
that are probably called to
that.

2186
02:19:07,840 --> 02:19:11,520
Yep.
And there's no, there's no shame

2187
02:19:11,840 --> 02:19:14,280
in that.
But some people might come in,

2188
02:19:14,280 --> 02:19:16,080
they might say, hey, you know
what this is this, we're working

2189
02:19:16,080 --> 02:19:19,320
really well.
And I feel like I know how to be

2190
02:19:19,320 --> 02:19:20,719
an independent fundamentalist
now.

2191
02:19:20,840 --> 02:19:22,520
And they want to go do that.
That's fine.

2192
02:19:23,240 --> 02:19:25,240
Yeah.
Or they might say, hey, yeah, I

2193
02:19:25,520 --> 02:19:27,480
I got my, I got my feet under
me.

2194
02:19:27,480 --> 02:19:29,719
And I'm feeling like I, I want
to go join the AUB.

2195
02:19:30,440 --> 02:19:33,040
It's OK too.
Yeah, yeah.

2196
02:19:33,600 --> 02:19:35,959
And, and that was the beauty
that I saw, right?

2197
02:19:36,200 --> 02:19:40,160
Because I, I felt like when you
first approached me with this, I

2198
02:19:40,160 --> 02:19:42,480
was like, we don't need another
church, right?

2199
02:19:42,639 --> 02:19:45,240
That is something we do not
need, right?

2200
02:19:45,240 --> 02:19:47,719
Right.
The other.

2201
02:19:47,879 --> 02:19:52,720
And, and so the way it acts as a
bridge to where wherever people

2202
02:19:52,720 --> 02:19:55,600
are supposed to be.
Yeah, I think that's the thing

2203
02:19:55,600 --> 02:19:59,000
that that enthralled me the most
about it, right, is that there

2204
02:19:59,000 --> 02:20:02,000
is no agenda here.
The agenda is about serving the

2205
02:20:02,000 --> 02:20:05,480
people that come in so that they
are empowered and responsible

2206
02:20:05,480 --> 02:20:08,200
enough to make the decision
about where it is they need to

2207
02:20:08,200 --> 02:20:10,840
be.
The LDS Church, the Nielsen

2208
02:20:10,840 --> 02:20:15,480
Naylors, the AUB, an independent
go down the list.

2209
02:20:15,640 --> 02:20:17,760
Right.
So this is open.

2210
02:20:17,760 --> 02:20:20,760
This isn't just for the, the,
the conservatives in the LDS

2211
02:20:20,760 --> 02:20:22,720
church that are finding things
untenable too.

2212
02:20:22,720 --> 02:20:29,240
This is for, you know, on social
media I see this, I see these

2213
02:20:29,240 --> 02:20:32,440
people that are labeled PIMO or
are they even self identify PIMO

2214
02:20:33,120 --> 02:20:38,480
physically and mentally out and
they get all manner of ridicule

2215
02:20:38,480 --> 02:20:43,400
and flak because they're going
through a hard experience re

2216
02:20:43,400 --> 02:20:45,960
evaluating their faith.
I feel empathy and sympathy

2217
02:20:45,960 --> 02:20:50,760
towards that.
I've never and I don't think

2218
02:20:50,760 --> 02:20:54,560
that they all this is just a bad
egg trying to destroy other

2219
02:20:54,560 --> 02:20:56,440
people's faith.
I see this is these are people

2220
02:20:56,440 --> 02:21:00,080
that are, they're hurt.
They're legitimately hurt.

2221
02:21:00,120 --> 02:21:01,720
They've got legitimate
questions.

2222
02:21:01,720 --> 02:21:04,320
And I don't know that we've got
all the answers for everybody,

2223
02:21:04,760 --> 02:21:10,320
but I think we might have some.
And those people deserve to be

2224
02:21:10,320 --> 02:21:14,200
able to learn the things that
they need to learn so they can

2225
02:21:14,200 --> 02:21:17,320
make decisions on their faith.
If they don't want to throw out

2226
02:21:17,320 --> 02:21:19,400
the Book of Mormon, they don't
want to throw out Joseph Smith.

2227
02:21:19,400 --> 02:21:21,600
If they don't want to throw out
Mormonism, you don't have to

2228
02:21:21,600 --> 02:21:23,400
throw out Mormonism.
Right.

2229
02:21:24,880 --> 02:21:28,160
Absolutely.
But most places you go, that's,

2230
02:21:28,320 --> 02:21:30,360
you know, it's, it's, that's for
the highway.

2231
02:21:31,720 --> 02:21:33,480
And there's no place to figure
stuff out.

2232
02:21:33,480 --> 02:21:38,040
There's no opportunity to, to,
to hear the arguments.

2233
02:21:38,480 --> 02:21:40,840
And so even within this
organization, we've got people

2234
02:21:40,840 --> 02:21:43,720
coming into this who are going
to be assisting in this that

2235
02:21:43,720 --> 02:21:46,360
have different ideas.
That's good.

2236
02:21:46,520 --> 02:21:49,720
That's a good thing.
And we can respect people having

2237
02:21:49,720 --> 02:21:54,000
different ideas.
Yeah, 100%.

2238
02:21:54,400 --> 02:22:03,720
OK, so let me ask you this with
that where it's how does someone

2239
02:22:03,720 --> 02:22:05,360
still stay active, right?
What?

2240
02:22:05,400 --> 02:22:11,080
Because are are how are we going
to avoid conflict between

2241
02:22:11,080 --> 02:22:15,600
someone who wants to go to
church on Sunday but yet attend

2242
02:22:15,800 --> 02:22:18,560
a sacrament meeting on Zoom with
the ministry?

2243
02:22:18,840 --> 02:22:20,640
Right.
So you have one of the other

2244
02:22:20,640 --> 02:22:23,800
auxiliary organizations, right,
is basically going to be a

2245
02:22:23,800 --> 02:22:28,160
bishopric.
And the idea there is to assist

2246
02:22:28,160 --> 02:22:33,720
in having sacrament meetings and
as much as possible to be able

2247
02:22:33,720 --> 02:22:37,320
to provide for temporal support
for people as much as possible,

2248
02:22:37,320 --> 02:22:40,280
right?
Again, we're not, we're, we are

2249
02:22:40,280 --> 02:22:43,360
organized in a way that we can
accept tithing money and we

2250
02:22:43,360 --> 02:22:45,640
intend to be completely open
about that.

2251
02:22:45,880 --> 02:22:48,040
You know, there's no hiding
money.

2252
02:22:48,040 --> 02:22:51,400
There's no, we're going to be
very clear about where that

2253
02:22:51,400 --> 02:22:56,200
goes.
And if people feel inspired to

2254
02:22:56,200 --> 02:22:58,800
pay tithing into that, that's,
that's OK.

2255
02:22:59,080 --> 02:23:03,160
And if you're not, that's OK.
But for those that do, if there

2256
02:23:03,160 --> 02:23:05,560
are funds available, we want to
be able to provide temporal

2257
02:23:05,560 --> 02:23:08,840
support to people as well, at
least get to a point where we

2258
02:23:08,840 --> 02:23:13,120
can, right?
So we're going to look at doing

2259
02:23:13,120 --> 02:23:16,640
our sacrament meeting on
Saturdays.

2260
02:23:16,880 --> 02:23:19,480
OK, so that way there's no
conflict on Sundays?

2261
02:23:19,480 --> 02:23:22,120
So that way people that are
involved in other organizations

2262
02:23:22,120 --> 02:23:25,040
and and set Sunday is they,
they've got other commitments.

2263
02:23:25,040 --> 02:23:26,640
That's OK.
We're going to try to be as

2264
02:23:26,640 --> 02:23:30,360
accommodating as possible.
And ultimately, when it comes

2265
02:23:30,360 --> 02:23:32,880
down to even sacrament meeting,
we want to organize something

2266
02:23:32,880 --> 02:23:35,920
for people that want to be a
part of that, right, right.

2267
02:23:36,240 --> 02:23:39,320
Ultimately though, if you have
Melchizedek priesthood.

2268
02:23:39,880 --> 02:23:41,880
Do that yourself.
You can do that yourself.

2269
02:23:41,880 --> 02:23:44,160
There's nothing you you can just
do things.

2270
02:23:44,160 --> 02:23:48,120
I know the church says you can't
but but you can just do things

2271
02:23:48,560 --> 02:23:51,000
with certain priesthood.
And look, there's a lot of folks

2272
02:23:51,000 --> 02:23:54,680
that don't know how to do that
anymore right at home.

2273
02:23:54,680 --> 02:23:56,960
Have a lesson at home with your
family.

2274
02:23:57,920 --> 02:24:00,440
And, and that was the other
thing I, I really dug about

2275
02:24:00,440 --> 02:24:02,920
this, was this idea that will
teach you.

2276
02:24:03,360 --> 02:24:05,440
Yeah, we'll teach them.
We've been doing it for a lot of

2277
02:24:05,440 --> 02:24:08,000
years, right?
Not, not you and I specifically,

2278
02:24:08,000 --> 02:24:09,520
but fundamentalists in general,
right?

2279
02:24:09,920 --> 02:24:12,520
Been doing it for a long time.
They'll, they'll show you how it

2280
02:24:12,520 --> 02:24:15,040
runs, right?
And, and give you some pointers.

2281
02:24:15,440 --> 02:24:17,120
And that's up to you to make it
fit, right?

2282
02:24:17,120 --> 02:24:18,680
You, you can make it look
however you want.

2283
02:24:18,680 --> 02:24:24,120
But, and so, so the rest.
So are all those meetings going

2284
02:24:24,120 --> 02:24:26,920
to be on Sunday or are they
going to be spread out?

2285
02:24:28,560 --> 02:24:30,720
Not entirely sure yet.
We're still we're still working

2286
02:24:30,720 --> 02:24:33,040
out the nuts and bolts, but we
do intend to try to keep

2287
02:24:33,040 --> 02:24:34,880
meetings off of Sunday.
OK.

2288
02:24:35,240 --> 02:24:38,720
So Sunday school might not be on
Saturday right after.

2289
02:24:38,800 --> 02:24:41,920
Right.
Sacrament call, but it'll be

2290
02:24:41,920 --> 02:24:44,200
something that can be more
accommodating for people.

2291
02:24:44,200 --> 02:24:46,560
Got you.
So that if your if your Sunday

2292
02:24:46,560 --> 02:24:49,600
is booked, that's all right.
So, so meetings throughout the

2293
02:24:49,600 --> 02:24:53,640
week, Yeah.
Which look, doing the podcast

2294
02:24:53,640 --> 02:24:57,520
now, going to church on Sunday,
activities on Saturday.

2295
02:24:57,840 --> 02:25:00,800
I love it, right?
Because I'm not cramming a

2296
02:25:00,800 --> 02:25:05,120
week's worth of church into a
two or three hour block, right?

2297
02:25:05,920 --> 02:25:08,640
That's spread out that I think
that's the way Mormonism was

2298
02:25:08,640 --> 02:25:10,520
supposed to be lived in the
beginning anyway.

2299
02:25:11,960 --> 02:25:15,080
It's not just a Sunday thing.
This is throughout your week

2300
02:25:15,080 --> 02:25:18,040
kind of a thing and throughout
your life kind of a thing.

2301
02:25:18,520 --> 02:25:25,880
Yeah, you know, and I guess so
the the 5th organization is a

2302
02:25:25,880 --> 02:25:28,320
missionary organization.
Right.

2303
02:25:28,840 --> 02:25:31,560
And it is.
We're going to try to do some

2304
02:25:31,560 --> 02:25:34,080
fundamentalist missionary work.
Nice.

2305
02:25:34,440 --> 02:25:38,480
And that's kind of new it's.
Very new.

2306
02:25:40,600 --> 02:25:43,680
We got we got some great guys
involved though and I think

2307
02:25:43,680 --> 02:25:45,760
we're going to be able to figure
that kind of stuff out as well.

2308
02:25:46,320 --> 02:25:49,720
But with that missionary effort,
we're not trying to.

2309
02:25:50,280 --> 02:25:56,440
There is no agenda here to tear
down anybody's existing faith or

2310
02:25:56,440 --> 02:26:00,720
beliefs, including LDSI.
Mean, I've got my own issues

2311
02:26:00,800 --> 02:26:02,840
with the LDS Church.
You've got your issues.

2312
02:26:04,680 --> 02:26:06,280
We're not going to try to tear
down.

2313
02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:09,240
We're not looking to bring
everybody over.

2314
02:26:09,640 --> 02:26:12,800
Right.
The idea if the LDS church is

2315
02:26:12,800 --> 02:26:16,200
working for you right now and
you feel good about that, then

2316
02:26:16,200 --> 02:26:18,480
you should stay there.
I honestly believe that.

2317
02:26:20,520 --> 02:26:25,400
But if it's not working for you
anymore, that's what this is

2318
02:26:25,400 --> 02:26:31,680
for. 100 percent, 100% OK, so we
got a good idea of what the

2319
02:26:31,680 --> 02:26:35,280
structure looks like.
It's it's essentially 5

2320
02:26:35,280 --> 02:26:38,040
organizations, a women, a
women's organization, a

2321
02:26:38,040 --> 02:26:43,480
priesthood organization, kind of
a bishopric for lack of a better

2322
02:26:43,480 --> 02:26:50,800
term, a, a, a missionary program
and then a teaching program, a,

2323
02:26:50,800 --> 02:26:53,600
a Sunday school kind of program.
OK.

2324
02:26:53,880 --> 02:26:56,400
There's one guy in particular I
can think of we probably

2325
02:26:56,400 --> 02:26:58,480
shouldn't name.
We just talked to him the other

2326
02:26:58,480 --> 02:27:00,360
day.
I'm not sure if he's ready for

2327
02:27:00,360 --> 02:27:03,680
that yet, but.
But I do want to talk about who

2328
02:27:03,680 --> 02:27:06,600
else we got involved here
because I think that's super

2329
02:27:06,600 --> 02:27:11,400
important in showing that this
is truly across group lines,

2330
02:27:11,480 --> 02:27:14,160
right?
We're not we're not going rogue

2331
02:27:14,160 --> 02:27:18,320
here.
We are we are simply trying to

2332
02:27:18,320 --> 02:27:21,760
work with others to to do a
bigger work.

2333
02:27:22,080 --> 02:27:23,840
Right.
And bring in the best of the

2334
02:27:23,840 --> 02:27:25,560
best to assist us in that, in
that.

2335
02:27:25,560 --> 02:27:27,960
Right.
So let's, let's talk.

2336
02:27:29,440 --> 02:27:31,840
We're going, we're going to skip
the priesthood organization for

2337
02:27:31,840 --> 02:27:33,240
now.
That will be announced later,

2338
02:27:34,360 --> 02:27:37,720
not terribly later like next
week maybe kind of a thing,

2339
02:27:37,800 --> 02:27:38,600
right.
OK.

2340
02:27:39,120 --> 02:27:44,720
So with that, who is going to be
heading up the 70s group the the

2341
02:27:44,760 --> 02:27:47,520
the the missionary group?
We're looking at having.

2342
02:27:47,520 --> 02:27:51,040
Jeff Aldridge, right?
And we, you've, you've talked to

2343
02:27:51,040 --> 02:27:54,600
him and he is on board.
OK, So Jeff Aldridge will be

2344
02:27:54,600 --> 02:27:56,920
there.
He's been on the podcast before.

2345
02:27:56,920 --> 02:27:59,200
He is not bashful.
Good dude.

2346
02:27:59,200 --> 02:28:03,720
Love that guy.
He he's he, he's been on seeking

2347
02:28:03,720 --> 02:28:06,320
Sister Wives.
Good dude, right?

2348
02:28:06,640 --> 02:28:09,960
Tremendously good, dude.
OK, what about kind of, you were

2349
02:28:09,960 --> 02:28:12,600
talking about kind of a Bishop
brick organization.

2350
02:28:12,800 --> 02:28:14,960
Who's going to head that one up?
We're looking to have Joshua

2351
02:28:14,960 --> 02:28:18,040
Erickson head that up.
OK, so Joshua Erickson, and if

2352
02:28:18,040 --> 02:28:21,720
you've listened to the podcast
at all, Joshua's been on here a

2353
02:28:21,720 --> 02:28:24,680
few times.
Again, good man, love him, love

2354
02:28:24,680 --> 02:28:29,720
his family, great people.
OK, what about the the teaching

2355
02:28:29,720 --> 02:28:33,760
organization?
We have a guy named Eleor.

2356
02:28:34,480 --> 02:28:37,120
And on the podcast a couple
times, yeah, go get her.

2357
02:28:37,320 --> 02:28:40,560
Very much a go getter.
Stay tuned, He's got some stuff

2358
02:28:40,560 --> 02:28:43,520
coming up that's really good.
Go check out the Desert Dagger.

2359
02:28:45,160 --> 02:28:47,280
Satirical stuff.
Right up my alley.

2360
02:28:48,120 --> 02:28:52,480
So, OK, And then who's heading
up the women's organization?

2361
02:28:53,520 --> 02:28:58,640
Moroni Jessup's wife, Martha.
OK, or lady, as he likes to call

2362
02:28:58,640 --> 02:29:01,840
her on TikTok.
So OK, so she'll head it up.

2363
02:29:01,840 --> 02:29:06,840
So yeah, these these are all
pretty heavy hitters in the

2364
02:29:06,840 --> 02:29:09,840
world of of fundamentalism.
They're not bashful people.

2365
02:29:09,840 --> 02:29:12,400
From all different stripes.
Yeah, types.

2366
02:29:12,600 --> 02:29:15,880
Again, you got you got folks
from the Nielsen nailers from

2367
02:29:15,880 --> 02:29:21,560
out here in, in at the Missouri
group out here from from

2368
02:29:21,560 --> 02:29:26,160
Independence and Joshua Erickson
and and Jeff Aldridge.

2369
02:29:26,520 --> 02:29:29,960
So, yeah, we've, we've got a
good group that has come

2370
02:29:29,960 --> 02:29:33,800
together to to perform this
heavy lift and it is a heavy

2371
02:29:33,800 --> 02:29:37,680
lift, but but I, I, I think
they're the horses to get it

2372
02:29:37,680 --> 02:29:42,560
done, so to speak.
OK, So that takes care of, of

2373
02:29:42,560 --> 02:29:48,000
that structure, takes care of
who is who's going to be heading

2374
02:29:48,000 --> 02:29:52,080
those things up.
Now I want to move on some more

2375
02:29:52,280 --> 02:29:57,440
kind of of the doctrinal stuff
because I think I think that's

2376
02:29:57,440 --> 02:30:01,360
the next question, right, that
people are going to have is OK,

2377
02:30:01,360 --> 02:30:06,040
well, how are you guys the same
as the LDS church and how are

2378
02:30:06,040 --> 02:30:12,000
you different?
So I think these are and, and

2379
02:30:12,000 --> 02:30:14,960
this was a collaborative effort
across several different people

2380
02:30:14,960 --> 02:30:19,120
from several different groups,
but I think it hits just right.

2381
02:30:20,720 --> 02:30:25,240
Excuse me.
So the 1st 13, is that right?

2382
02:30:25,240 --> 02:30:28,760
13 or 14?
The 1st 13 Articles of Faith are

2383
02:30:28,800 --> 02:30:32,160
absolutely right there.
But then there were some other

2384
02:30:32,160 --> 02:30:37,400
ones that I think give some
greater context for what this is

2385
02:30:37,400 --> 02:30:40,520
about, and I'm going to let
Justin read them off there and

2386
02:30:40,520 --> 02:30:42,120
then we'll talk about them for
just a moment.

2387
02:30:42,400 --> 02:30:47,200
Yeah, So the idea here, the
original articles of faith, what

2388
02:30:47,200 --> 02:30:52,280
were a response to people
wondering, So what is what are

2389
02:30:52,280 --> 02:30:53,720
these Mormons?
What is this church?

2390
02:30:54,560 --> 02:30:58,760
When Joseph Smith was just
getting going and he didn't want

2391
02:30:58,760 --> 02:31:03,280
to put together a creed, but he
wanted to come up with something

2392
02:31:03,280 --> 02:31:09,800
to communicate the core doctrine
and beliefs of the restoration.

2393
02:31:10,680 --> 02:31:15,120
Now when this was originally
given, we were in the midst of

2394
02:31:15,120 --> 02:31:21,760
the Restoration still and by the
time all this lands we've got

2395
02:31:21,760 --> 02:31:24,160
Brigham Young and and has
basically founded his own

2396
02:31:24,160 --> 02:31:28,720
country.
Yep, people forget he didn't

2397
02:31:28,720 --> 02:31:33,360
just leave Missouri, he left the
United States.

2398
02:31:33,640 --> 02:31:39,480
Yep, and there wasn't I think as
much of A need to re clarify.

2399
02:31:39,800 --> 02:31:44,360
Right.
Where the restoration ended up,

2400
02:31:44,360 --> 02:31:49,920
Where it finished at right.
So Joseph Smith before his death

2401
02:31:50,840 --> 02:31:54,120
was exalting that he had, he had
rolled it off.

2402
02:31:54,120 --> 02:31:57,080
He'd, he'd, he did what needed
to be done right?

2403
02:31:57,200 --> 02:32:00,040
That whether he lives or dies,
this can move forward.

2404
02:32:00,640 --> 02:32:02,760
Doesn't matter.
Doesn't matter and we know we

2405
02:32:02,760 --> 02:32:04,400
lost him.
Right.

2406
02:32:05,120 --> 02:32:08,560
And, and Brigham Young took up
that torch and he's busy

2407
02:32:08,560 --> 02:32:10,680
founding his own country and all
that stuff.

2408
02:32:11,000 --> 02:32:12,400
Just trying to keep people
alive.

2409
02:32:12,400 --> 02:32:17,120
Trying to keep people alive.
And what came to me was this

2410
02:32:17,120 --> 02:32:21,600
idea of putting together some
additional articles of faith to

2411
02:32:21,600 --> 02:32:27,680
communicate the doctrines of the
Restoration, where it landed, to

2412
02:32:27,680 --> 02:32:29,320
complete fill it, to fill it
out.

2413
02:32:29,320 --> 02:32:31,880
And I'm not saying this is
exactly what Joseph Smith would

2414
02:32:31,880 --> 02:32:34,120
have come with, come up with, or
Brigham Young would have come up

2415
02:32:34,120 --> 02:32:36,760
with.
But if they had set themselves

2416
02:32:36,760 --> 02:32:38,840
to the task, I think they would
have ended up something very,

2417
02:32:38,840 --> 02:32:42,400
very similar.
OK, so that's kind of the idea

2418
02:32:42,400 --> 02:32:45,760
here.
So we've got starting here in

2419
02:32:45,920 --> 02:32:49,880
Article 14. 14, yeah.
All right.

2420
02:32:50,480 --> 02:32:54,120
We believe that Adam and Eve are
the heavenly parents of our

2421
02:32:54,120 --> 02:32:58,400
spirits, who condescended from
their celestial Thrones and

2422
02:32:58,400 --> 02:33:02,480
glory to provide mortal bodies
for us, their children.

2423
02:33:03,000 --> 02:33:06,120
We also believe that after Adam
and Eve completed their mission

2424
02:33:06,120 --> 02:33:09,160
as the progenitors of the human
race, they return to their

2425
02:33:09,160 --> 02:33:12,160
celestial glory to govern the
affairs of their children in

2426
02:33:12,160 --> 02:33:15,840
creation.
OK, so let me ask this question

2427
02:33:15,840 --> 02:33:19,160
because there's going to be
some, a lot that don't believe

2428
02:33:19,160 --> 02:33:20,720
in the Adam God doctrine.
Right.

2429
02:33:21,320 --> 02:33:25,320
So does that mean that that they
are automatically excluded

2430
02:33:25,440 --> 02:33:28,400
because they maybe don't believe
in that one tenant there?

2431
02:33:28,600 --> 02:33:30,240
Not at all.
Not at all.

2432
02:33:30,360 --> 02:33:34,160
In fact, even if you've lost
some of the 1st 13, if that's

2433
02:33:34,160 --> 02:33:36,960
where you're at, that's OK too.
OK.

2434
02:33:37,280 --> 02:33:41,000
But this is as far as this
organization, we're, we're going

2435
02:33:41,000 --> 02:33:44,320
to step forth our we're going to
set forth our standards, OK,

2436
02:33:44,400 --> 02:33:46,760
right.
This is what we believe as

2437
02:33:46,760 --> 02:33:49,040
fundamentalists.
This is what I personally have a

2438
02:33:49,040 --> 02:33:50,840
testimony of.
This is what?

2439
02:33:51,960 --> 02:33:55,120
This group, that this is what
this group stands, this eclectic

2440
02:33:55,120 --> 02:33:57,000
group of individuals have come
to.

2441
02:33:57,360 --> 02:34:00,280
This is this is what we believe
and this is what we believe as

2442
02:34:00,280 --> 02:34:02,440
Mormons.
If you've got issues with that,

2443
02:34:02,440 --> 02:34:04,520
that's OK.
You don't have to agree with

2444
02:34:04,520 --> 02:34:06,640
that.
But that is, I want to be clear,

2445
02:34:06,640 --> 02:34:09,640
because we don't.
What we don't want is to create

2446
02:34:09,640 --> 02:34:15,960
a ministry that doesn't stand
for anything and can be directed

2447
02:34:17,040 --> 02:34:21,120
by whoever just happens to be
charismatic enough to.

2448
02:34:21,480 --> 02:34:23,480
Yeah.
So this, this, these are

2449
02:34:23,480 --> 02:34:26,920
basically these are the the
foundational doctrines.

2450
02:34:27,040 --> 02:34:29,080
OK.
But if you don't have a

2451
02:34:29,080 --> 02:34:30,920
testimony of them yet, that's OK
too.

2452
02:34:31,000 --> 02:34:33,800
Yep, absolutely.
Or and if you never come to

2453
02:34:33,800 --> 02:34:35,000
that.
Test and if you never come to

2454
02:34:35,000 --> 02:34:35,640
it, that's OK.
Too.

2455
02:34:35,640 --> 02:34:38,520
Yeah, absolutely.
It's not my, it's not my job to

2456
02:34:38,520 --> 02:34:39,760
police what anybody else.
Please.

2457
02:34:39,920 --> 02:34:43,960
Absolutely, absolutely.
OK, so Adam God Doctrine got it

2458
02:34:43,960 --> 02:34:45,400
right.
But that is, that is what

2459
02:34:45,400 --> 02:34:47,920
Brigham Young revealed.
And Brigham Young.

2460
02:34:48,160 --> 02:34:49,640
This wasn't Brigham Young's
opinion.

2461
02:34:49,920 --> 02:34:50,920
Right.
No.

2462
02:34:50,920 --> 02:34:55,000
And look, Brigham gets the
opportunity to again, found his

2463
02:34:55,000 --> 02:34:58,000
own country, right, where he
doesn't have to worry about

2464
02:34:58,600 --> 02:35:05,200
mobsters killing everybody
because he's going to spout some

2465
02:35:05,200 --> 02:35:08,480
some deep doctrine that's going
to irritate some people, right?

2466
02:35:08,480 --> 02:35:11,480
So, OK, Adam, God doctrine, we
got that.

2467
02:35:12,360 --> 02:35:15,840
Yep.
Article 15 says we believe that

2468
02:35:15,840 --> 02:35:19,240
our Eternal Father and Heavenly
Mother were once mortals, as we

2469
02:35:19,240 --> 02:35:22,200
are now and lived on a different
earth, and that through the

2470
02:35:22,200 --> 02:35:25,840
Atonement of their Savior, as
well as making a living up to

2471
02:35:25,840 --> 02:35:28,640
eternal covenants, they
qualified themselves for the

2472
02:35:28,640 --> 02:35:30,560
blessings of exaltation and
godhood.

2473
02:35:31,320 --> 02:35:33,040
Perfect.
Right.

2474
02:35:33,440 --> 02:35:36,160
That one's not even Brigham.
Right back to Joseph Smith.

2475
02:35:36,160 --> 02:35:38,120
That's King Follett.
Yeah, absolutely.

2476
02:35:38,120 --> 02:35:38,960
Yeah.
OK.

2477
02:35:40,040 --> 02:35:42,560
And this last one kind of goes
in line with this as well.

2478
02:35:42,560 --> 02:35:46,520
We believe that as the literal
descendants of God, we have the

2479
02:35:46,520 --> 02:35:51,960
same opportunity to participate
in the same eternal pattern, to

2480
02:35:51,960 --> 02:35:55,400
become joint heirs with our
Savior Jesus Christ of Nazareth,

2481
02:35:55,440 --> 02:35:58,640
and receive the same blessings
of exaltation and eternal lives.

2482
02:35:59,160 --> 02:36:01,880
OK, again, pretty
straightforward, right?

2483
02:36:01,880 --> 02:36:03,880
Straightforward, right?
That one.

2484
02:36:03,880 --> 02:36:06,760
That one I don't think is really
that much different than what

2485
02:36:06,960 --> 02:36:09,560
almost all Mormons.
Created right and well, if you

2486
02:36:09,560 --> 02:36:12,080
have faith in the temple
sealing, that's that is what is

2487
02:36:12,080 --> 02:36:13,040
promised.
Yep.

2488
02:36:14,800 --> 02:36:18,000
And again, not necessarily just
because you were sealed, but

2489
02:36:18,000 --> 02:36:21,720
that is the opportunity to a
ceiling that God grants us

2490
02:36:21,720 --> 02:36:23,080
through that ordinance.
Right.

2491
02:36:23,320 --> 02:36:24,280
Perfect.
OK.

2492
02:36:24,800 --> 02:36:30,160
So that's the that's kind of the
Adam God type articles right

2493
02:36:30,160 --> 02:36:34,320
there.
Next we have, let's see, 16.

2494
02:36:34,600 --> 02:36:37,640
Yeah, we believe that.
Oh wait, age 1617.

2495
02:36:38,000 --> 02:36:43,080
We believe in the establishment
and consecration of holy temples

2496
02:36:43,080 --> 02:36:46,400
for the administration of sacred
ordinances wherein the

2497
02:36:46,400 --> 02:36:49,840
opportunity and blessings of
exaltation are made available to

2498
02:36:49,960 --> 02:36:52,720
all who choose to qualify and
receive them.

2499
02:36:53,280 --> 02:36:56,680
Perfect.
This is This one was big, right?

2500
02:36:56,680 --> 02:37:06,280
Because for the first time ever,
almost all Mormons have access

2501
02:37:06,280 --> 02:37:08,360
to a temple now.
Right.

2502
02:37:08,960 --> 02:37:13,720
If they so choose right and in
the and look, I've described it

2503
02:37:13,720 --> 02:37:18,120
this way and I truly believe
this what happened in Missouri

2504
02:37:18,120 --> 02:37:20,920
with that temple was a watershed
moment, not just for

2505
02:37:20,920 --> 02:37:23,600
fundamentalism, but for
Mormonism period.

2506
02:37:25,280 --> 02:37:29,600
And it showed not only the
ability for people to get

2507
02:37:29,600 --> 02:37:32,120
together and work well together
right.

2508
02:37:32,120 --> 02:37:35,160
From what I understand, I I want
to make it clear I wasn't here

2509
02:37:35,680 --> 02:37:39,240
for hardly any of the buildings.
So but from what I understand is

2510
02:37:39,800 --> 02:37:45,520
they did it under a council
right of of elected men and it

2511
02:37:45,520 --> 02:37:49,160
got done, which in Mormonism
that's crazy stuff.

2512
02:37:50,160 --> 02:37:53,360
It did get done and it I, I
would say it even more than got

2513
02:37:53,360 --> 02:37:57,920
done because, and this is again,
you're allowed to believe

2514
02:37:57,920 --> 02:38:00,480
whatever you are responsible for
your own beliefs.

2515
02:38:00,800 --> 02:38:02,680
Right.
We're not going to tell you one

2516
02:38:02,680 --> 02:38:05,560
way or another, but the standard
here is that for those who

2517
02:38:05,560 --> 02:38:10,240
choose to qualify and receive
them, Yep, there are some people

2518
02:38:10,240 --> 02:38:14,560
in this organization that
probably will have a belief in

2519
02:38:14,560 --> 02:38:16,080
the priesthood band.
Right.

2520
02:38:16,960 --> 02:38:20,320
That's OK.
OK, so let's talk about that,

2521
02:38:20,320 --> 02:38:21,880
how that works, right?
Right.

2522
02:38:22,120 --> 02:38:25,960
Because that, on the surface,
would appear like something that

2523
02:38:25,960 --> 02:38:28,720
would have to be split over or
schism over.

2524
02:38:28,720 --> 02:38:30,640
It, well that's generally what
happens, right?

2525
02:38:32,120 --> 02:38:36,520
Yeah, that is the general MO.
What we're looking at doing

2526
02:38:36,520 --> 02:38:39,800
here, though, is you are
responsible for your own

2527
02:38:39,800 --> 02:38:43,000
beliefs.
So if you are, if you have a

2528
02:38:43,000 --> 02:38:48,120
sincere belief that that
priesthood band is God's law and

2529
02:38:48,120 --> 02:38:51,800
that is God's standard, then we
would not ask you to participate

2530
02:38:52,200 --> 02:38:55,360
in ordinances that you aren't
comfortable with participating

2531
02:38:55,360 --> 02:38:57,240
or administrate administering
it.

2532
02:38:59,480 --> 02:39:02,960
So no, he would ask those who
feel that way to share the same

2533
02:39:02,960 --> 02:39:04,520
respect with us.
Right.

2534
02:39:04,680 --> 02:39:09,840
And so if the people that govern
this temple are comfortable

2535
02:39:10,520 --> 02:39:15,120
letting black people receive
their ordinances, if you have a

2536
02:39:15,120 --> 02:39:18,160
problem with that, you're
welcome to not participate.

2537
02:39:19,200 --> 02:39:20,960
For that session for that.
Session, right.

2538
02:39:21,760 --> 02:39:24,480
If you're not comfortable
administering A priesthood

2539
02:39:24,480 --> 02:39:27,480
ordination to somebody, that's
OK.

2540
02:39:28,240 --> 02:39:31,640
We would just ask the same
respect in return that for those

2541
02:39:31,640 --> 02:39:35,440
of us that are comfortable
performing those ordinances for

2542
02:39:35,440 --> 02:39:37,960
people that we feel have
qualified for them.

2543
02:39:39,000 --> 02:39:41,320
And if we feel that that
qualification isn't racial

2544
02:39:41,320 --> 02:39:46,240
based, that you can respect that
we're going to we're going to

2545
02:39:46,240 --> 02:39:48,640
perform those ordinances for
those people and we can respect

2546
02:39:48,640 --> 02:39:50,520
that you're that you feel like
you shouldn't.

2547
02:39:51,040 --> 02:39:54,960
And the responsibility of that
comes in the sense that you're

2548
02:39:54,960 --> 02:39:56,440
going to answer for that on the
other side.

2549
02:39:56,520 --> 02:39:59,880
Right, right, and and.
Part of the other responsibility

2550
02:39:59,880 --> 02:40:02,600
is, is, you know, OK, so you
know what?

2551
02:40:02,920 --> 02:40:05,280
I got a buddy.
Blow him to death.

2552
02:40:05,280 --> 02:40:09,680
But he does.
He's not on board with with with

2553
02:40:09,680 --> 02:40:11,600
removing the ban.
And I get it, right?

2554
02:40:11,600 --> 02:40:12,880
Yeah.
The history is messy.

2555
02:40:12,880 --> 02:40:14,600
It is messy.
I understand.

2556
02:40:14,600 --> 02:40:17,200
I don't blame anyone for getting
to where they are on that.

2557
02:40:19,360 --> 02:40:22,360
The The the general rule of
thumb is we're not going to ask

2558
02:40:22,360 --> 02:40:24,480
anyone to do anything they're
not comfortable with.

2559
02:40:24,640 --> 02:40:26,960
Yeah.
And then the other thing is, is

2560
02:40:26,960 --> 02:40:33,160
that likewise nobody's going to
try to stand in the way of

2561
02:40:33,160 --> 02:40:36,120
someone who feels the other
direction administering those

2562
02:40:36,120 --> 02:40:39,160
blessings exactly a live and let
live kind of approach.

2563
02:40:39,200 --> 02:40:42,040
Exactly, and we'll all be
responsible ultimately.

2564
02:40:42,040 --> 02:40:43,400
Yeah, we're all going to answer
for.

2565
02:40:43,400 --> 02:40:45,560
What we do going to answer to
God in the end.

2566
02:40:46,160 --> 02:40:48,720
And so if this is if, if
administering that to black

2567
02:40:48,720 --> 02:40:52,200
people turns out that was a
mistake, well, that's on me if I

2568
02:40:52,240 --> 02:40:54,480
choose to administer those
ordinances to people.

2569
02:40:54,640 --> 02:40:57,520
Right.
That's not upon you if you felt

2570
02:40:57,520 --> 02:40:59,680
like you shouldn't and you
choose not to participate.

2571
02:40:59,960 --> 02:41:03,200
Absolutely.
OK, no, pretty straightforward.

2572
02:41:03,320 --> 02:41:07,080
Yeah.
So 18 is we believe that the

2573
02:41:07,080 --> 02:41:09,840
eternal and unchanging
requirements of salvation and

2574
02:41:09,840 --> 02:41:13,600
exaltation will always be
founded upon the same

2575
02:41:13,840 --> 02:41:17,840
principles, laws and covenants
which are fulfilled in the

2576
02:41:17,840 --> 02:41:21,280
administration of the restored
ordinances, and that the

2577
02:41:21,280 --> 02:41:23,480
covenants, principles and
administration of these

2578
02:41:23,480 --> 02:41:26,320
ordinances are not to be denied
or altered.

2579
02:41:27,160 --> 02:41:29,880
Otherwise the keys of the
priesthood will become a cursing

2580
02:41:29,880 --> 02:41:32,000
rather than a blessing.
Mm hmm.

2581
02:41:32,480 --> 02:41:34,520
In the old days that you say,
those keys would be turned

2582
02:41:34,520 --> 02:41:35,800
against you.
Yeah.

2583
02:41:36,040 --> 02:41:37,320
Right.
And that's and.

2584
02:41:37,400 --> 02:41:40,960
And so that one, if I'm not
mistaken, basically has to say

2585
02:41:40,960 --> 02:41:44,160
with no changing of the
ordinances.

2586
02:41:44,160 --> 02:41:45,920
We're not changing the
ordinances, right?

2587
02:41:46,040 --> 02:41:47,760
We don't believe in changing the
ordinances.

2588
02:41:47,800 --> 02:41:49,840
Yeah.
And and let's, let's also be

2589
02:41:49,840 --> 02:41:53,680
clear here too, that this
organization isn't going to be

2590
02:41:53,680 --> 02:41:55,800
handing out Temple recommends,
right?

2591
02:41:56,000 --> 02:41:58,680
We're just going to put you in
touch with the people that do

2592
02:41:58,680 --> 02:42:01,680
make those decisions.
And it's up to you to go track

2593
02:42:01,680 --> 02:42:04,240
those down.
We're not going to be the judge

2594
02:42:04,280 --> 02:42:07,080
of your worthiness one way or
another on that.

2595
02:42:07,280 --> 02:42:08,080
Correct.
OK.

2596
02:42:08,360 --> 02:42:12,840
Yep.
But I think that there's if, if

2597
02:42:12,840 --> 02:42:18,320
we, if we, if we understand
going back to the nature of God,

2598
02:42:18,360 --> 02:42:21,560
right?
How can we have faith in the God

2599
02:42:22,080 --> 02:42:25,480
that will give a certain
requirement for one for

2600
02:42:25,480 --> 02:42:27,640
exaltation and a different
requirement for another?

2601
02:42:27,640 --> 02:42:30,520
For exaltation, he's a respecter
of persons attack.

2602
02:42:30,520 --> 02:42:32,640
That's not.
Yeah, there's an inherent

2603
02:42:32,640 --> 02:42:35,000
injustice in that.
The standards are different, and

2604
02:42:35,000 --> 02:42:37,280
we don't believe that.
Now.

2605
02:42:37,280 --> 02:42:41,720
The beautiful thing about
Mormonism is that there is a

2606
02:42:41,720 --> 02:42:44,800
place in heaven for all of God's
children.

2607
02:42:45,640 --> 02:42:50,760
There is no eternal damnation
for anybody that doesn't choose,

2608
02:42:52,080 --> 02:42:53,960
right?
Specifically choose if you want

2609
02:42:53,960 --> 02:42:55,520
nothing to do with God your
Father.

2610
02:42:56,080 --> 02:42:58,080
God's got a place for that even.
Yep.

2611
02:42:58,920 --> 02:43:03,920
But otherwise, for the majority
of us all, God's got a place for

2612
02:43:03,920 --> 02:43:06,320
us.
Yep, 100%.

2613
02:43:07,400 --> 02:43:11,600
And so if you want to step up
and receive all that God has to

2614
02:43:11,600 --> 02:43:15,640
offer, those conditions don't
change.

2615
02:43:15,960 --> 02:43:18,600
But if it works through the
dead, through temples, right,

2616
02:43:18,760 --> 02:43:21,520
these things become available to
all mankind.

2617
02:43:22,120 --> 02:43:25,760
Absolutely.
So next is 19.

2618
02:43:25,800 --> 02:43:28,720
We believe that the fullness of
the priesthood restored by

2619
02:43:28,720 --> 02:43:31,840
Joseph Smith, along with all of
its associated keys and

2620
02:43:31,840 --> 02:43:36,040
authority, make it be conferred
upon all men who are prepared

2621
02:43:36,040 --> 02:43:39,120
and qualified to receive it by a
holy anointing.

2622
02:43:39,680 --> 02:43:41,600
This ordinance, called the
Second Anointing, is

2623
02:43:41,600 --> 02:43:45,600
administered to men one at a
time, by revelation and at the

2624
02:43:45,600 --> 02:43:48,920
hands of others who have
previously received it, and it

2625
02:43:48,920 --> 02:43:51,680
is the highest and holiest
ordinance administered by men on

2626
02:43:51,680 --> 02:43:56,200
this earth.
OK, so this one gets a little

2627
02:43:56,200 --> 02:44:02,240
dicey, right?
Yeah, because when I look at

2628
02:44:02,240 --> 02:44:07,840
that particular ordinance, it
should not be handed out Willy

2629
02:44:07,840 --> 02:44:09,720
nilly, right?
No.

2630
02:44:09,960 --> 02:44:15,280
Well, it it within the ordinance
itself is a organization that

2631
02:44:15,280 --> 02:44:21,040
puts that responsibility upon
those who receive it to receive

2632
02:44:21,040 --> 02:44:24,240
revelation right on those that
they administer it to.

2633
02:44:24,920 --> 02:44:30,880
And and so I don't think you're
calling for just passing that

2634
02:44:30,880 --> 02:44:32,760
out, no.
Not at all.

2635
02:44:32,880 --> 02:44:36,640
OK.
However, this ordinance has been

2636
02:44:36,640 --> 02:44:39,640
preserved.
It's even been preserved outside

2637
02:44:39,640 --> 02:44:44,800
of the LDS Church.
And it's important to understand

2638
02:44:44,800 --> 02:44:49,920
that again, while to a certain
degree I'm winging it here, I,

2639
02:44:49,920 --> 02:44:53,520
I, I haven't received some
divine Angel telling me organize

2640
02:44:53,520 --> 02:44:56,040
this organization, do this.
I don't, I don't have that

2641
02:44:56,040 --> 02:44:59,520
right.
But this organization does have

2642
02:44:59,520 --> 02:45:02,160
priesthood.
It does have the priesthood to

2643
02:45:02,160 --> 02:45:04,760
organize this way.
It has priesthood to perform

2644
02:45:04,760 --> 02:45:09,400
these temple ordinances.
And that this priesthood is one

2645
02:45:09,400 --> 02:45:11,800
that has been preserved in
fundamentalism.

2646
02:45:12,000 --> 02:45:16,000
Absolutely.
And it is also being brought

2647
02:45:16,000 --> 02:45:20,440
forth in this ministry, not as
a, you know, we're handing out

2648
02:45:20,440 --> 02:45:23,920
second anointing ordinances
Willy nilly, but that this

2649
02:45:23,920 --> 02:45:27,000
organization is being
administered with the proper

2650
02:45:27,000 --> 02:45:30,080
priesthood authority to be able
to do the things that we are

2651
02:45:30,080 --> 02:45:33,760
doing.
So if you need to be sealed, if

2652
02:45:33,760 --> 02:45:36,120
you want to be sealed to your
wife, if you want to be sealed

2653
02:45:36,120 --> 02:45:42,280
to an additional wife, that
priesthood has been preserved

2654
02:45:42,560 --> 02:45:44,960
and that exists within this
organization.

2655
02:45:45,960 --> 02:45:51,000
And that we will be able to
perform ordinances for people,

2656
02:45:51,640 --> 02:45:58,120
the temple ceilings and and make
these authentic ordinances

2657
02:45:59,360 --> 02:46:02,800
valid.
Because otherwise the problem is

2658
02:46:02,960 --> 02:46:07,600
if you if you leave the LDS
church, well, who would your

2659
02:46:07,600 --> 02:46:09,200
children want to be sealed to
somebody?

2660
02:46:09,800 --> 02:46:12,240
Do they need to go back into the
LDS to do that?

2661
02:46:13,120 --> 02:46:15,560
There are organizations and
fundamentalism that claim this

2662
02:46:15,560 --> 02:46:19,640
authority that I absolutely have
faith in, but a lot of these

2663
02:46:19,640 --> 02:46:22,560
organizations require an
allegiance to that organization

2664
02:46:22,720 --> 02:46:25,560
to receive it right.
If you want to be sealed to your

2665
02:46:25,560 --> 02:46:30,960
wife in fundamentalism, you know
there are some independent

2666
02:46:30,960 --> 02:46:32,600
fundamentalists that have this
priesthood.

2667
02:46:32,600 --> 02:46:36,520
They're willing to perform it,
but by and large you're going to

2668
02:46:36,520 --> 02:46:39,800
need to end up in a group.
Yeah, no, I get it.

2669
02:46:40,040 --> 02:46:42,080
And that's not going to be a
requirement here.

2670
02:46:42,680 --> 02:46:45,560
Gotcha, Right, gotcha.
So yeah, you'll be able to

2671
02:46:45,600 --> 02:46:49,680
encounter men who who have that
authority at the same time

2672
02:46:50,320 --> 02:46:53,320
direct you where to go to make
sure you can go there to get it.

2673
02:46:53,400 --> 02:46:54,080
Yeah.
OK.

2674
02:46:54,080 --> 02:46:55,560
So that the ordinances are
valid.

2675
02:46:55,600 --> 02:46:57,040
Gotcha.
Nope, that makes sense.

2676
02:46:57,280 --> 02:46:59,920
Yep.
So 22 is, we believe, that

2677
02:46:59,920 --> 02:47:02,640
Joseph Smith restored and lived
the principles of plural

2678
02:47:02,640 --> 02:47:06,880
marriage as a fundamental and
required component of the new

2679
02:47:06,880 --> 02:47:09,920
and everlasting covenant of
marriage and as a condition that

2680
02:47:09,920 --> 02:47:13,880
must be entered into to receive
the highest glory of eternity.

2681
02:47:14,440 --> 02:47:18,160
Wherein multiple women are
voluntarily married and sealed

2682
02:47:18,160 --> 02:47:22,040
with a single man of their own
free will and choice, thereby

2683
02:47:22,040 --> 02:47:25,720
providing every woman with an
opportunity to marry a godly man

2684
02:47:25,720 --> 02:47:28,840
of her choosing and to become a
mother in Zion.

2685
02:47:30,160 --> 02:47:31,480
So there's a couple things
there.

2686
02:47:31,480 --> 02:47:33,960
One totally cool with plural
marriage this.

2687
02:47:33,960 --> 02:47:35,680
Organization is cool with plural
marriage.

2688
02:47:35,720 --> 02:47:39,680
Yes, we are fundamental after
all, the one thing we're known

2689
02:47:39,680 --> 02:47:41,320
for.
It's kind of the one thing you

2690
02:47:41,320 --> 02:47:44,320
almost have to have, right?
I mean, like, that's.

2691
02:47:44,320 --> 02:47:46,000
Yeah, no, I get it.
OK.

2692
02:47:46,080 --> 02:47:47,720
But the wording here is very
careful.

2693
02:47:47,880 --> 02:47:53,120
Well, I was just going to say a
man of her choosing.

2694
02:47:53,560 --> 02:47:56,160
Yes.
So explain to me what the

2695
02:47:56,160 --> 02:48:01,120
thought process was behind that.
So there's been times in the

2696
02:48:01,120 --> 02:48:03,640
Restoration, especially when
Joseph Smith first introduced

2697
02:48:03,640 --> 02:48:08,160
this, that men were called by
revelation and women were called

2698
02:48:08,160 --> 02:48:10,280
by revelation to enter into this
principle.

2699
02:48:12,040 --> 02:48:16,160
One of the things that we
understand from the 1886

2700
02:48:16,160 --> 02:48:21,280
Revelation, though, is that it's
actually God's desires that we

2701
02:48:21,280 --> 02:48:23,160
voluntarily.
Right.

2702
02:48:23,160 --> 02:48:25,840
Enter into the Enter into the
new and everlasting covenant of

2703
02:48:25,840 --> 02:48:29,320
marriage.
That it's not an assignment

2704
02:48:30,000 --> 02:48:32,160
necessarily by revel, by a
priest and leader.

2705
02:48:32,280 --> 02:48:40,240
That you are individually
responsible to figure out who

2706
02:48:40,240 --> 02:48:44,160
your family is by revelation.
So placement marriage is off the

2707
02:48:44,160 --> 02:48:45,440
table.
So placement marriage, yeah,

2708
02:48:45,440 --> 02:48:48,600
that's off the table.
OK, not not even close.

2709
02:48:48,600 --> 02:48:52,400
Because again, we don't have
this organization does not have

2710
02:48:55,600 --> 02:48:57,280
a AA1 man.
Gotcha.

2711
02:48:57,480 --> 02:49:03,880
To even go to Yep, if you wanted
placement marriage, we can't

2712
02:49:03,880 --> 02:49:05,760
help you.
Right, right.

2713
02:49:06,080 --> 02:49:09,680
You have to go to somebody who
has that authority, ask them to

2714
02:49:09,680 --> 02:49:13,000
do it, have them pray about it
and get the revelation that they

2715
02:49:13,000 --> 02:49:16,440
need, that it's OK for them to
perform that ceiling right, and

2716
02:49:16,440 --> 02:49:17,800
then it can get done.
Yeah.

2717
02:49:17,920 --> 02:49:20,440
So again, it kind of goes back
to individual responsibility.

2718
02:49:20,600 --> 02:49:22,920
Absolutely.
But we definitely I, I think

2719
02:49:22,920 --> 02:49:26,560
it's, it's only leads to abuse,
yes.

2720
02:49:27,080 --> 02:49:32,040
And where we're at now, when you
have a priesthood control over

2721
02:49:32,040 --> 02:49:35,200
marriage, because we all
understand that that as Mormons,

2722
02:49:35,200 --> 02:49:38,920
this is a core tenant of our
eternal families, is a core

2723
02:49:38,920 --> 02:49:42,680
tenant of everything that we
believe.

2724
02:49:42,760 --> 02:49:49,400
And if you have to delegate the
responsibility of figuring out

2725
02:49:49,720 --> 02:49:52,920
those decisions to the
priesthood, you're not.

2726
02:49:52,920 --> 02:49:55,920
Even if a priesthood has the
right answer for you, you're

2727
02:49:55,920 --> 02:49:58,000
missing out.
Yeah, I get it.

2728
02:49:58,040 --> 02:50:00,960
You're missing out that should.
That should be between you, the

2729
02:50:00,960 --> 02:50:07,520
Lord, your wife, and a potential
other wife, and you should all

2730
02:50:07,520 --> 02:50:09,080
be in harmony and unity with
that.

2731
02:50:09,400 --> 02:50:12,040
Absolutely.
Now the other tricky thing is

2732
02:50:12,040 --> 02:50:17,160
here, and this is this is the
doctrine and this is a hard

2733
02:50:17,160 --> 02:50:19,360
doctrine of fundamentalism,
right?

2734
02:50:19,760 --> 02:50:26,440
But Section 132, it's it's very
clear teachings from even Joseph

2735
02:50:26,440 --> 02:50:30,440
Smith, while he wasn't
specifically talking about

2736
02:50:30,680 --> 02:50:35,120
plural marriage openly, was
laying forth the groundwork that

2737
02:50:35,120 --> 02:50:40,520
because God is not a respecter
of persons that the stand, the

2738
02:50:40,520 --> 02:50:44,320
requirements don't change.
And if you want to receive the

2739
02:50:44,320 --> 02:50:47,440
blessings of Abraham, you've got
to do the works of Abraham.

2740
02:50:47,720 --> 02:50:49,640
Right.
And that's a hard thing.

2741
02:50:50,440 --> 02:50:53,080
It's it's very often
mischaracterized as an easy

2742
02:50:53,080 --> 02:50:56,160
thing for men because, oh, you
get an extra wife.

2743
02:50:56,560 --> 02:50:59,440
Hooray, Hooray.
Well, you know, that's the one

2744
02:50:59,440 --> 02:51:02,120
argument I've never quite
understood against the anti

2745
02:51:02,120 --> 02:51:11,080
polygamy people, because if you
are a husband, if you're doing

2746
02:51:11,080 --> 02:51:16,360
it right, it's not easy.
And multiplying that, I don't

2747
02:51:16,360 --> 02:51:17,680
know.
I don't have experience with

2748
02:51:17,680 --> 02:51:23,160
that yet myself, but I I don't
think that's a walk in the park.

2749
02:51:23,160 --> 02:51:28,280
There's easier ways, yeah, of
debauchery than marrying extra

2750
02:51:28,280 --> 02:51:30,760
women and providing for them and
giving them children, raising

2751
02:51:30,760 --> 02:51:35,640
their children and trying to
make a family like that work.

2752
02:51:36,560 --> 02:51:41,960
I am very blessed with with with
my wife because both of them are

2753
02:51:41,960 --> 02:51:45,320
absolute rock stars of an of
individuals.

2754
02:51:46,320 --> 02:51:49,200
Having said that, it's still
work, right?

2755
02:51:49,200 --> 02:51:52,880
It's still work.
I imagine it's worth it.

2756
02:51:53,800 --> 02:51:57,080
It's worth it, yeah.
But to do it right, I think it

2757
02:51:57,080 --> 02:51:59,320
it it's going to be work.
Yeah, right.

2758
02:51:59,400 --> 02:52:01,400
But I wouldn't trade it for
anything in the world.

2759
02:52:01,600 --> 02:52:03,560
Yeah.
So is this a sacrifice for men

2760
02:52:03,560 --> 02:52:04,360
and women?
Right.

2761
02:52:04,360 --> 02:52:08,240
Absolutely.
And I have a testimony that

2762
02:52:08,240 --> 02:52:12,040
that's a, that is a bedrock
foundation of, of, of this

2763
02:52:12,040 --> 02:52:13,040
faith.
Absolutely.

2764
02:52:13,440 --> 02:52:17,200
And that doesn't, now I don't
agree and that's not in here

2765
02:52:17,720 --> 02:52:21,040
that you have to live this
principle in your life to

2766
02:52:21,040 --> 02:52:23,920
receive exaltation.
OK.

2767
02:52:24,000 --> 02:52:26,600
Now some people could choose to
believe differently, and then

2768
02:52:26,680 --> 02:52:29,600
there are fundamentalists that
do choose to believe differently

2769
02:52:29,600 --> 02:52:32,240
on that one as well.
You know, I agree with you that

2770
02:52:33,240 --> 02:52:38,320
that having to live it here,
probably not, but you should be

2771
02:52:38,320 --> 02:52:39,960
good with it.
You should be good with it

2772
02:52:39,960 --> 02:52:42,000
though, right?
You should get to a place.

2773
02:52:42,040 --> 02:52:44,640
It's not going to be, you're not
going to go through life in

2774
02:52:44,640 --> 02:52:49,120
monogamy in this life and then
after this life suddenly be

2775
02:52:49,120 --> 02:52:50,760
like, all right, I'm ready for a
plural marriage now.

2776
02:52:50,960 --> 02:52:52,880
Right, right.
It's not.

2777
02:52:52,880 --> 02:52:54,360
Guess it's not going to be
easier.

2778
02:52:54,360 --> 02:52:57,920
It is a core tenant, right?
I mean, and, and look, these are

2779
02:52:57,920 --> 02:53:02,000
one of those things where, where
getting right with it, at least

2780
02:53:02,000 --> 02:53:07,080
in my opinion, is that if, if
the right woman came along and

2781
02:53:07,080 --> 02:53:10,040
said, I'd like to join your
family, you and your wife were

2782
02:53:10,040 --> 02:53:12,440
at a place to where you could
kneel down together in

2783
02:53:12,440 --> 02:53:16,040
earnestness and pray for the
revelation.

2784
02:53:16,040 --> 02:53:21,600
If the revelation was positive,
you would be willing to do that,

2785
02:53:21,960 --> 02:53:25,880
right, Right.
And likewise that a guy's not so

2786
02:53:25,880 --> 02:53:30,320
fired up just to do it that he
skips the revelation part

2787
02:53:30,400 --> 02:53:32,160
altogether.
Right.

2788
02:53:32,240 --> 02:53:35,600
Yes.
And so it, well, there's got to

2789
02:53:35,600 --> 02:53:38,200
be a healthy tension here.
Again, individual

2790
02:53:38,200 --> 02:53:40,800
responsibility, right?
But that's, that's, that's true

2791
02:53:40,800 --> 02:53:42,960
even in monogamy.
Yep, that's true.

2792
02:53:42,960 --> 02:53:46,080
And even, and I believe even in
monogamy, when you make

2793
02:53:46,080 --> 02:53:50,520
covenants with a woman like
that, you, you are now as a man,

2794
02:53:51,040 --> 02:53:53,280
you are responsible.
Absolutely.

2795
02:53:53,400 --> 02:53:56,960
And you've got to take that
responsibility wherever it may

2796
02:53:56,960 --> 02:53:59,800
lead.
And that might be a lot of of

2797
02:54:00,320 --> 02:54:02,680
working with your wife.
Absolutely.

2798
02:54:02,680 --> 02:54:05,800
So you get to a place where you
can be on the same page.

2799
02:54:05,800 --> 02:54:10,920
Absolutely, 100% right.
So 23.

2800
02:54:11,040 --> 02:54:13,080
She's almost done.
No problem.

2801
02:54:13,400 --> 02:54:15,000
We.
Believe that when women have

2802
02:54:15,000 --> 02:54:18,400
made covenants with God and
their husband that they obtained

2803
02:54:18,400 --> 02:54:21,080
the right and privilege of
calling upon their husband's

2804
02:54:21,080 --> 02:54:23,800
priesthood to administer to our
family in times of need.

2805
02:54:24,400 --> 02:54:26,760
We also believe that through the
sacred ordinance of the Second

2806
02:54:26,760 --> 02:54:30,040
Anointing, a woman has the
privilege of being a vessel for

2807
02:54:30,040 --> 02:54:32,680
the priesthood and can
administer in the priesthood as

2808
02:54:32,680 --> 02:54:37,400
directed by God.
You know, this one is so timely

2809
02:54:38,040 --> 02:54:43,840
and and let me explain why.
Some of the emails I get are

2810
02:54:43,840 --> 02:54:46,840
from men and women asking about
women's role in the priesthood.

2811
02:54:47,280 --> 02:54:49,240
Right.
It's a big question in the

2812
02:54:49,240 --> 02:54:53,080
church right now that the church
is wrestling with, and it goes

2813
02:54:53,080 --> 02:54:56,760
to prove my point that not all
the answers we need lay in front

2814
02:54:56,760 --> 02:54:59,560
of us.
Some of them are behind us.

2815
02:54:59,880 --> 02:55:00,600
Yeah.
Right.

2816
02:55:00,600 --> 02:55:05,000
And this is one of those, it's
my understanding, and you can

2817
02:55:05,000 --> 02:55:08,400
correct me if I'm wrong here,
that once a woman is endowed and

2818
02:55:08,400 --> 02:55:12,360
married, she can call on her
husband's priesthood to do

2819
02:55:12,880 --> 02:55:15,920
things that in his absence.
Historically, that's that's

2820
02:55:16,120 --> 02:55:17,560
right we have in the
restoration.

2821
02:55:17,560 --> 02:55:19,480
Right.
And then when a woman receives

2822
02:55:19,480 --> 02:55:24,160
the second anointing, she can
officiate in the priesthood.

2823
02:55:24,600 --> 02:55:28,280
Yep.
That is revolutionary on so many

2824
02:55:28,280 --> 02:55:33,080
levels, so many loves, right?
And, and look, I want to go back

2825
02:55:33,080 --> 02:55:34,880
to one of the first ones we
talked about here.

2826
02:55:34,880 --> 02:55:39,040
Because women in the priesthood
and women in the gospel is so

2827
02:55:39,040 --> 02:55:43,240
vitally important to get right.
It's so important.

2828
02:55:43,240 --> 02:55:48,840
It gets right.
You can't be super feminist at

2829
02:55:48,840 --> 02:55:51,600
the same time.
You can't be a chauvinist either

2830
02:55:51,600 --> 02:55:53,280
if you're a man.
No, right.

2831
02:55:53,520 --> 02:55:56,720
Joseph strikes a balance here
through revelation.

2832
02:55:56,920 --> 02:56:00,520
That is beautiful.
One of the question again,

2833
02:56:00,600 --> 02:56:03,280
probably 3-4 years ago, I
remember listening to a general

2834
02:56:03,280 --> 02:56:06,520
conference and one of the Big
15, I can't remember which one,

2835
02:56:06,960 --> 02:56:09,320
got up and said, look, yes, we
know that there is a heavenly

2836
02:56:09,320 --> 02:56:10,880
Mother.
We just don't know a lot about

2837
02:56:10,880 --> 02:56:13,360
her.
My contention is, if you went

2838
02:56:13,360 --> 02:56:16,480
back to the Adam God doctrine,
you know a heck of a lot more

2839
02:56:16,480 --> 02:56:18,840
than you know right now.
Right, right.

2840
02:56:19,200 --> 02:56:21,720
She's got a voice in the
scriptures, right She?

2841
02:56:21,880 --> 02:56:25,080
Does she plays an integral role?
Yes, yes.

2842
02:56:25,480 --> 02:56:29,160
And likewise this question of
women in the priesthood, the

2843
02:56:29,240 --> 02:56:33,400
answers to those questions are
found in the original teachings,

2844
02:56:34,160 --> 02:56:36,440
if you're willing to have the
courage to go look.

2845
02:56:37,320 --> 02:56:41,400
And this is one place where I
feel like fundamentalism at

2846
02:56:41,400 --> 02:56:47,480
large can be a big time net
positive to Mormonism as a whole

2847
02:56:47,880 --> 02:56:53,080
is in terms of women's relation
to priesthood and deity, right?

2848
02:56:53,200 --> 02:56:58,080
Now you might say, well, isn't
this just catering to feminists?

2849
02:56:58,160 --> 02:57:05,840
No, no, this is holding true to
the doctrine so.

2850
02:57:06,320 --> 02:57:11,560
When I was going to school, one
of the things I studied was Karl

2851
02:57:11,560 --> 02:57:15,840
Marx, right?
And I'm reading and studying

2852
02:57:15,840 --> 02:57:22,320
Karls Marx's critiques of
capitalism and what shocked me

2853
02:57:22,320 --> 02:57:26,000
because I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very
much a very strong conservative.

2854
02:57:26,840 --> 02:57:28,160
Free market kind of guy, kind of
free.

2855
02:57:28,160 --> 02:57:30,600
Market guy, I, I probably learn
more conservative than

2856
02:57:30,600 --> 02:57:38,040
libertarian, but this was a, a
challenge because as I'm reading

2857
02:57:38,040 --> 02:57:42,560
Marx and he's describes the
problems of capitalism, I'm

2858
02:57:42,560 --> 02:57:50,560
looking around the world today
and I'm like, maybe he, maybe he

2859
02:57:50,560 --> 02:57:55,120
was right on some of the
problems with capitalism.

2860
02:57:55,200 --> 02:58:00,080
Now, I think his solutions were
terrible, but I think he was

2861
02:58:00,080 --> 02:58:03,000
absolutely right that that
capitalism is not a perfect

2862
02:58:03,000 --> 02:58:06,720
system and we can see these
kinds of abuses even today.

2863
02:58:06,720 --> 02:58:11,400
I mean, we were just talking
earlier about a certain amount

2864
02:58:11,400 --> 02:58:14,640
of gratitude.
I don't trust Elon Musk as far

2865
02:58:14,640 --> 02:58:18,040
as I can throw him, but him by
an ex?

2866
02:58:18,640 --> 02:58:20,480
He kind of saved free speech on
the Internet.

2867
02:58:20,720 --> 02:58:21,520
He did.
Right.

2868
02:58:21,640 --> 02:58:23,400
I mean, that's just the truth of
it, right?

2869
02:58:23,400 --> 02:58:25,120
Yeah, it's.
Just kind of how it is.

2870
02:58:25,160 --> 02:58:32,000
And so I think that there is a
real struggle that women have in

2871
02:58:32,000 --> 02:58:34,320
the restored gospel in the
church today as presented.

2872
02:58:34,440 --> 02:58:38,680
There are some legitimate issues
that aren't being addressed

2873
02:58:39,480 --> 02:58:42,600
properly.
Now the the feminist solutions,

2874
02:58:43,280 --> 02:58:48,080
I believe are incomplete and
broken, and that if they got

2875
02:58:48,480 --> 02:58:52,680
exactly what they wanted, they'd
find that they got they'll they

2876
02:58:52,800 --> 02:58:55,160
that this isn't what they want.
Right.

2877
02:58:55,600 --> 02:58:58,480
Much like, you know, Betty
Friedan talking about, you know,

2878
02:58:58,480 --> 02:59:01,200
you empower women to have jobs
and careers and all that.

2879
02:59:01,200 --> 02:59:05,480
And I mean, I've got a job and a
career and, and man, I, I, I, I

2880
02:59:05,480 --> 02:59:09,960
wish I could just spend all my
time with my children and, and,

2881
02:59:10,640 --> 02:59:13,520
and a lot of women today are
saying, hey, I think we got a

2882
02:59:13,520 --> 02:59:16,920
got short sold a, a, a.
Bad bill of goods.

2883
02:59:16,920 --> 02:59:19,320
Bad bill of goods.
This isn't this isn't really

2884
02:59:19,320 --> 02:59:22,120
that empowering.
It's just hard right?

2885
02:59:22,200 --> 02:59:24,640
And and then it creates other
problems.

2886
02:59:24,640 --> 02:59:26,040
Now who's going to raise the
children?

2887
02:59:26,120 --> 02:59:28,080
Well, I guess we have to pass it
off somewhere else and.

2888
02:59:28,560 --> 02:59:31,240
Abjugating responsibility.
Abjugating responsibility, Yeah.

2889
02:59:31,680 --> 02:59:36,600
But when done properly, as
revealed by Joseph Smith, as

2890
02:59:36,600 --> 02:59:39,160
revealed by Brigham Young and
John, as as was lived in the

2891
02:59:39,160 --> 02:59:44,440
early days of the gospel, women
need this connection to the

2892
02:59:44,440 --> 02:59:47,960
priesthood as well.
And you know, a feminist might

2893
02:59:47,960 --> 02:59:49,760
say, well, it's not fair that
they have to go through their

2894
02:59:49,760 --> 02:59:51,920
husbands to get it.
Well, so do the men.

2895
02:59:53,200 --> 02:59:55,600
The scripture say that man is
not without the woman or the

2896
02:59:55,600 --> 02:59:57,040
woman without the man and the
Lord.

2897
02:59:57,880 --> 03:00:02,440
We have to come together as
different sexes to fully embody.

2898
03:00:03,280 --> 03:00:06,640
This true divinity.
All of Mormonism's higher

2899
03:00:06,640 --> 03:00:10,400
ordinances depend on a man and a
woman getting married.

2900
03:00:10,560 --> 03:00:11,720
Yeah.
Period.

2901
03:00:11,800 --> 03:00:13,120
Period.
Point blank.

2902
03:00:13,400 --> 03:00:18,080
There's no getting around it.
Look, one of the best things I

2903
03:00:18,080 --> 03:00:20,160
ever saw.
You remember that show Who Wants

2904
03:00:20,160 --> 03:00:21,520
to Be a Millionaire?
Oh, yeah.

2905
03:00:21,560 --> 03:00:25,480
That quiz show there was a great
one they did with with celebrity

2906
03:00:25,480 --> 03:00:27,280
athletes.
Right.

2907
03:00:27,760 --> 03:00:29,760
And one of the guys on there was
Steve Young.

2908
03:00:29,760 --> 03:00:32,880
You know who he is, right?
Yeah, great, great, great.

2909
03:00:32,880 --> 03:00:36,440
Whatever grandson to Brigham
Young, Hall of Fame quarterback,

2910
03:00:36,640 --> 03:00:40,000
you know, seems like the
ultimate Boy Scout, right?

2911
03:00:40,000 --> 03:00:44,680
Yeah.
But the host asked him, said,

2912
03:00:44,680 --> 03:00:47,400
you know, I heard you.
You're engaged to be married

2913
03:00:47,400 --> 03:00:48,320
now.
Finally.

2914
03:00:48,320 --> 03:00:49,960
It's like, yeah, I did.
He's like, well, how'd you

2915
03:00:49,960 --> 03:00:53,520
propose?
And he said, sorry, this is just

2916
03:00:53,520 --> 03:00:56,400
a side tangent.
He said, well, I took, we hiked

2917
03:00:56,400 --> 03:01:00,840
up to the tallest peak in Utah
that we could get to and I got

2918
03:01:00,840 --> 03:01:04,160
on one knee and I said, this is
as high as a man can get on his

2919
03:01:04,160 --> 03:01:06,160
own.
Would you help me get the rest

2920
03:01:06,160 --> 03:01:07,960
of the way?
Now?

2921
03:01:08,040 --> 03:01:09,600
It panned over to Charles
Barkley.

2922
03:01:09,600 --> 03:01:12,160
He was stomach, he was holding
the stomach, laughing really

2923
03:01:12,160 --> 03:01:14,280
hard.
And he said, man, that's the

2924
03:01:14,280 --> 03:01:19,240
widest stuff I ever heard.
But but nonetheless, Steve Young

2925
03:01:19,240 --> 03:01:23,080
was right, right.
We can't get to where we want to

2926
03:01:23,080 --> 03:01:28,840
go as men without our wives.
Likewise, women can't get to

2927
03:01:28,840 --> 03:01:32,080
where they ultimately want to be
in this gospel without their

2928
03:01:32,080 --> 03:01:36,640
husbands.
So we are mutually reliant and

2929
03:01:36,640 --> 03:01:40,720
dependent upon the other to get
to where we want to go in

2930
03:01:40,720 --> 03:01:44,640
exaltation.
And, and what I find in early

2931
03:01:44,640 --> 03:01:49,520
Mormonism is that there's a
beautiful symbiosis or a

2932
03:01:49,520 --> 03:01:53,560
beautiful balance between the
sexes that's illuminated by

2933
03:01:53,560 --> 03:01:56,640
Joseph Smith, right?
Or, or revealed by God through

2934
03:01:56,640 --> 03:01:59,000
Joseph Smith is probably a
better way of saying that.

2935
03:01:59,080 --> 03:02:01,160
Yeah.
And so I I.

2936
03:02:02,400 --> 03:02:05,440
The closer you come together.
Absolutely, absolutely.

2937
03:02:05,440 --> 03:02:08,960
And so I, I was, I was really
excited to kind of set the

2938
03:02:08,960 --> 03:02:11,800
record straight on that part
because I feel like it's been

2939
03:02:11,800 --> 03:02:15,360
far neglected for far too long.
Right there, there is a right

2940
03:02:15,360 --> 03:02:17,200
way to empower women and
Mormonism.

2941
03:02:17,240 --> 03:02:19,040
Yep, and they're all go the
wrong way.

2942
03:02:19,080 --> 03:02:22,840
Yep, 100%.
But Joseph had it right.

2943
03:02:22,960 --> 03:02:27,520
Yep, 100%.
So this is our final one, and

2944
03:02:27,520 --> 03:02:29,760
this one speaks to what we
talked about a little bit

2945
03:02:29,760 --> 03:02:32,240
earlier.
OK, so this is 24.

2946
03:02:33,280 --> 03:02:36,800
We believe that our physical
bodies are created, male and

2947
03:02:36,800 --> 03:02:43,120
female, as distinct, incomplete
and complementary halves which

2948
03:02:43,120 --> 03:02:48,720
manifest on unchangeable and
eternal identity that we all

2949
03:02:48,720 --> 03:02:52,640
possessed before birth.
And like any other temporal

2950
03:02:52,640 --> 03:02:56,840
weakness common to mankind.
Gender dysphoria, homosexual

2951
03:02:56,840 --> 03:02:59,640
attraction, and other
distortions of our eternal

2952
03:02:59,640 --> 03:03:05,920
identities are not sinful in and
of themselves, but when acted

2953
03:03:05,920 --> 03:03:12,200
upon, legitimized, or excused,
they result in severe

2954
03:03:12,200 --> 03:03:16,640
consequences of spiritual and
temporal destruction to

2955
03:03:16,640 --> 03:03:19,480
ourselves, our families, and
society.

2956
03:03:19,760 --> 03:03:21,800
OK, break that down.
What does that mean?

2957
03:03:22,880 --> 03:03:27,600
That means it is not a sin to
have homosexual attraction.

2958
03:03:28,520 --> 03:03:30,720
OK?
That means it isn't a sin if you

2959
03:03:30,920 --> 03:03:35,520
are struggling with feeling like
maybe I'm a woman and I'm a guy,

2960
03:03:35,520 --> 03:03:37,880
right?
I'm a guy and I'm A and I or you

2961
03:03:37,880 --> 03:03:39,800
know.
If you're experiencing gender

2962
03:03:39,800 --> 03:03:42,440
dysphoria.
Yeah, that those things that

2963
03:03:42,440 --> 03:03:46,520
that's, you know, I don't
struggle with those things, but

2964
03:03:46,520 --> 03:03:50,960
I've got my own struggles and I
have to temper myself.

2965
03:03:51,800 --> 03:03:54,720
I can't just go and mate with
any woman that I find.

2966
03:03:55,840 --> 03:03:59,880
There's there's there's a carnal
desire that might be interested

2967
03:03:59,880 --> 03:04:02,520
in that, right.
But that needs to be tempered

2968
03:04:02,880 --> 03:04:05,720
with the laws of God because
ultimately these God laws are

2969
03:04:05,720 --> 03:04:08,000
for our benefit.
OK.

2970
03:04:08,440 --> 03:04:13,560
But there are consequences.
To acting upon them.

2971
03:04:14,520 --> 03:04:19,040
And that is I, I wish, I
honestly, I wish I could say it

2972
03:04:19,440 --> 03:04:24,640
were otherwise, but everything
we see in the world, this, this

2973
03:04:24,640 --> 03:04:29,800
experiment into affirming and
legitimizing these things has

2974
03:04:29,800 --> 03:04:33,120
been destruction.
It has been insanity.

2975
03:04:34,000 --> 03:04:37,720
We've got drag time story hour.
We've got boys competing in

2976
03:04:37,720 --> 03:04:39,800
girls sports.
We've got men hanging out in

2977
03:04:39,800 --> 03:04:46,240
girls bathrooms.
There is a societal collapse

2978
03:04:46,240 --> 03:04:50,720
happening because the family is
that fundamental unit of society

2979
03:04:51,360 --> 03:04:56,200
and we have experimented with,
well, maybe, maybe, maybe we can

2980
03:04:56,200 --> 03:04:59,200
do this our own way.
Yeah, and that's proven

2981
03:04:59,200 --> 03:05:01,280
disastrous.
It's proven as and it is just as

2982
03:05:01,280 --> 03:05:07,640
disastrous if I acted upon all
of my desires as well that it's

2983
03:05:07,640 --> 03:05:12,920
not specifically that there's
something wrong with people in

2984
03:05:12,920 --> 03:05:19,000
that LGBT, LGBT, whatever
community, not any more wrong

2985
03:05:19,000 --> 03:05:25,800
than the rest of us.
But I in society today, maybe I,

2986
03:05:25,840 --> 03:05:30,080
I would be, but I would I would
expect that if I became a

2987
03:05:30,080 --> 03:05:33,200
Playboy and I started dating
girls and having one night

2988
03:05:33,200 --> 03:05:35,680
stands and things like that,
that there would be an

2989
03:05:35,680 --> 03:05:38,920
expectation that that's wrong.
It's bad, that's destructive,

2990
03:05:38,920 --> 03:05:41,200
that's going to lead to.
Disaster.

2991
03:05:41,240 --> 03:05:45,240
Disaster, and it would be
disaster just as much as this is

2992
03:05:45,240 --> 03:05:47,320
disaster.
This has been a disaster.

2993
03:05:47,840 --> 03:05:50,480
Right, so it's one of those
things.

2994
03:05:50,480 --> 03:05:55,360
Let let me see if I can can got
my mind wrapped around this is

2995
03:05:56,040 --> 03:05:59,000
if you struggle with those
things, you're welcome.

2996
03:05:59,360 --> 03:06:03,440
Exactly.
But if you're acting upon them,

2997
03:06:04,120 --> 03:06:06,400
then it's a different thing.
A little bit here.

2998
03:06:06,800 --> 03:06:08,960
Yeah.
I would hope that you recognize

2999
03:06:08,960 --> 03:06:11,960
that you need some help, right?
And we'd be willing to help as

3000
03:06:11,960 --> 03:06:13,960
best as we can.
Ultimately, though, again,

3001
03:06:13,960 --> 03:06:16,200
individual responsibility.
Right.

3002
03:06:16,960 --> 03:06:21,040
With my own struggles with, with
your own struggles, it's all

3003
03:06:21,160 --> 03:06:26,640
between you and the Lord.
So we're not going to see pride

3004
03:06:26,640 --> 03:06:28,880
flags in there.
No pride flags.

3005
03:06:29,160 --> 03:06:32,600
Not going to have a dude going
to the women's meeting.

3006
03:06:32,960 --> 03:06:35,240
Nope.
Not going to have a woman coming

3007
03:06:35,240 --> 03:06:36,840
to the men's meeting.
Right.

3008
03:06:37,320 --> 03:06:39,280
OK.
We're also not going to platform

3009
03:06:39,280 --> 03:06:40,720
Andrew Tate.
Right.

3010
03:06:41,120 --> 03:06:44,240
Yeah, I got you.
I got you UJ.

3011
03:06:44,320 --> 03:06:46,080
No, that's that's pretty
reasonable.

3012
03:06:46,760 --> 03:06:48,400
I could see that.
So that's all of them.

3013
03:06:48,480 --> 03:06:56,080
That's all of them.
Dude, OK, so we, we've just went

3014
03:06:56,680 --> 03:07:00,320
quite a ways.
What what time is it 115?

3015
03:07:00,800 --> 03:07:02,400
OK, so we're going on three
hours.

3016
03:07:05,160 --> 03:07:13,480
What in your mind, what are the
as this grows, how does growth

3017
03:07:13,480 --> 03:07:20,000
be get accommodated, right?
Because while the Zoom meetings

3018
03:07:20,000 --> 03:07:23,760
are going on, that's great, but
that's not ultimately how you

3019
03:07:23,760 --> 03:07:26,960
want to have religious meetings
constantly, right?

3020
03:07:26,960 --> 03:07:29,120
It's not ideal.
So, so what's the thought

3021
03:07:29,120 --> 03:07:33,240
process there if this was to
grow and catch fire and those

3022
03:07:33,240 --> 03:07:34,480
sorts of things?
Right.

3023
03:07:34,520 --> 03:07:39,480
Well, my plan is that we're
going to see people coming in

3024
03:07:40,680 --> 03:07:45,760
and as they experience living
the fullness of the gospel in

3025
03:07:45,760 --> 03:07:49,240
these things, that they're going
to be able to step up as well.

3026
03:07:49,240 --> 03:07:52,040
And I'm hoping that some people
who find benefit through this

3027
03:07:52,040 --> 03:07:57,520
ministry will feel called to
stick around and that this can

3028
03:07:57,520 --> 03:08:00,040
grow.
And I don't know exactly what

3029
03:08:00,040 --> 03:08:08,840
the form might, might take, but
ultimately it can't just be on

3030
03:08:08,840 --> 03:08:14,320
me, can't just be on Dave.
And so as people come in, I, I

3031
03:08:14,320 --> 03:08:18,440
hope to abdicate this position
of having started this as as

3032
03:08:18,480 --> 03:08:23,160
soon as as soon as possible.
Right when Justin first asked if

3033
03:08:23,160 --> 03:08:26,360
I'd be willing to help, I said
well, only if my position gets

3034
03:08:26,360 --> 03:08:28,640
to be the token inactive guy.
So.

3035
03:08:29,600 --> 03:08:32,680
And unfortunately we need Dave
in other spots in this thing so

3036
03:08:33,240 --> 03:08:35,840
he does not get to be the token
inactive guy yet.

3037
03:08:36,800 --> 03:08:40,920
Yeah, we can dream.
It's my goal, my goal, my goal.

3038
03:08:41,080 --> 03:08:43,720
That's what I want to do.
We want it.

3039
03:08:43,720 --> 03:08:46,200
We want this to be able to grow
though, and so there's going to

3040
03:08:46,200 --> 03:08:49,880
be opportunities to step up.
You know, ultimately, as we

3041
03:08:49,880 --> 03:08:52,120
talked, one of the things that
you, that you hit on that I

3042
03:08:52,120 --> 03:08:57,240
really liked was this idea of
it's scalable, right?

3043
03:08:57,240 --> 03:09:02,440
So let's say in Richfield, UT,
there's a, you know, there's a

3044
03:09:02,440 --> 03:09:05,760
guy out there who starts hanging
out with us online.

3045
03:09:05,760 --> 03:09:08,160
And then pretty soon he tells
his friends and their friends

3046
03:09:08,160 --> 03:09:12,320
tell their friends.
All of a sudden he's got his own

3047
03:09:12,320 --> 03:09:14,400
group right there.
Right.

3048
03:09:14,400 --> 03:09:17,440
And and I think that's
ultimately where, where we hope

3049
03:09:17,440 --> 03:09:20,480
is that people step up and take
responsibility for this.

3050
03:09:20,560 --> 03:09:22,880
Yeah.
And kind of bloom where they're

3051
03:09:22,880 --> 03:09:26,200
planted exactly.
Because look, while while, you

3052
03:09:26,200 --> 03:09:29,520
know, while the folks in
Missouri are great, we're all

3053
03:09:29,520 --> 03:09:31,640
not going to fit in Missouri,
right?

3054
03:09:31,680 --> 03:09:34,440
Not yet, Not yet.
And so we're, you know, you're

3055
03:09:34,440 --> 03:09:37,200
going to have to kind of bloom
where you're planted, right?

3056
03:09:37,200 --> 03:09:41,120
You're going to have to, to lift
where you stand and be able to,

3057
03:09:41,600 --> 03:09:46,200
to rally those who, who share
your beliefs and get them on

3058
03:09:46,200 --> 03:09:49,160
board with this.
And and likewise, this scales

3059
03:09:49,160 --> 03:09:54,040
wherever you're at can scale up,
it can scale down and there's

3060
03:09:54,040 --> 03:09:56,800
people that will be there to
help you along the way as that

3061
03:09:56,800 --> 03:09:58,080
starts.
Yeah.

3062
03:09:58,120 --> 03:10:01,000
And the organization can be here
to support you as much as

3063
03:10:01,000 --> 03:10:02,640
necessary.
And if it's a point where

3064
03:10:02,640 --> 03:10:05,520
somebody's like, hey, I think
I've got this figured out and

3065
03:10:05,520 --> 03:10:10,360
I'm feeling called to, you know,
organize their own version of

3066
03:10:10,360 --> 03:10:13,400
this, their own branch of it,
that's that's perfect, that's

3067
03:10:13,400 --> 03:10:15,440
perfect.
That's that's kind of the hope

3068
03:10:15,440 --> 03:10:17,760
here is that.
Absolutely.

3069
03:10:17,840 --> 03:10:20,720
Everybody can figure out what
they need to be doing.

3070
03:10:22,160 --> 03:10:25,040
We're not going to end up with
the Zion society, with a a a

3071
03:10:25,040 --> 03:10:30,000
nation of kings and priests and
Queens and priestesses under a

3072
03:10:30,000 --> 03:10:35,760
system where you have to have an
organizational permission to do

3073
03:10:35,760 --> 03:10:37,320
anything.
Absolutely.

3074
03:10:37,640 --> 03:10:42,240
So at the core, at the core
level, we want to respect

3075
03:10:42,960 --> 03:10:46,600
everybody's own individual
inspirations, their own

3076
03:10:46,600 --> 03:10:52,680
revelations, their own callings,
and we're here to try to support

3077
03:10:52,680 --> 03:10:55,440
that as much as people are
willing to, to participate.

3078
03:10:56,040 --> 03:11:01,840
Awesome.
OK, so with that, how do people

3079
03:11:01,840 --> 03:11:03,760
find find this ministry?
Yeah.

3080
03:11:04,200 --> 03:11:05,520
Right.
So we haven't, we're calling

3081
03:11:05,520 --> 03:11:11,720
this Mormon Legacy Ministries.
Our symbol is, is a handcart.

3082
03:11:13,280 --> 03:11:17,880
And the idea is harkening back
to that original legacy, that

3083
03:11:17,880 --> 03:11:22,440
gift, that inheritance, that is
all of us as brothers and

3084
03:11:22,440 --> 03:11:27,240
sisters who have come into some
form of Mormonism or another,

3085
03:11:27,240 --> 03:11:30,320
right?
We were all essentially heirs

3086
03:11:30,600 --> 03:11:40,480
of, of this restoration.
And it's a call back to the old

3087
03:11:40,480 --> 03:11:43,240
stuff, right?
Those old values, those old

3088
03:11:43,240 --> 03:11:46,680
principles, those old standards.
And I, I mean, that's something

3089
03:11:46,680 --> 03:11:49,560
I've got a huge thirst for.
Yep, absolutely.

3090
03:11:49,640 --> 03:11:52,720
Right.
Men and women taken, you know,

3091
03:11:52,760 --> 03:11:54,280
they had to do that.
No.

3092
03:11:54,280 --> 03:11:56,160
Yeah.
Now even with Brigham Young,

3093
03:11:56,160 --> 03:11:57,640
right.
It's easy to look at Brigham

3094
03:11:57,640 --> 03:11:58,880
Young, think, well, he was the
prophet.

3095
03:11:58,880 --> 03:12:02,640
Usually the prophet says people
lost their lives.

3096
03:12:02,880 --> 03:12:07,480
Yeah, on that, on those handcart
trails, they've put everything

3097
03:12:07,480 --> 03:12:11,000
in and they were willing to do
whatever it takes.

3098
03:12:11,000 --> 03:12:13,240
They didn't do that because
Brigham Young told them to.

3099
03:12:13,560 --> 03:12:16,040
They didn't do that because
Joseph Smith told them to.

3100
03:12:16,600 --> 03:12:19,480
They're doing that because they
had their own conviction.

3101
03:12:20,000 --> 03:12:22,400
They got to their core.
This is the right, this is the

3102
03:12:22,400 --> 03:12:24,840
right thing to do.
This is what they need to do,

3103
03:12:24,880 --> 03:12:26,880
and they're willing to take
responsibility for that.

3104
03:12:27,440 --> 03:12:29,800
Perfect.
And that's kind of.

3105
03:12:31,440 --> 03:12:34,040
So Mormon Legacy
legacyministries.com.

3106
03:12:34,640 --> 03:12:38,280
Dot org.org.
So Mormon legacy.org or Mormon

3107
03:12:38,280 --> 03:12:40,800
Legacy Ministries dot.
Org I'll put both the links in

3108
03:12:40,800 --> 03:12:43,400
the in the show notes here and
people can find it.

3109
03:12:43,680 --> 03:12:48,400
And the, the idea here
invitation is we will have a

3110
03:12:48,400 --> 03:12:51,040
form to fill out if you're, if
you're already like, this is

3111
03:12:51,120 --> 03:12:52,680
exactly what I've been looking
for.

3112
03:12:52,680 --> 03:12:55,760
I want to be involved in this.
Then we'll have a place where

3113
03:12:55,760 --> 03:13:02,040
you can get in touch with us as
Yeah, and, and get started right

3114
03:13:02,040 --> 03:13:04,200
away.
If you're just curious, you want

3115
03:13:04,200 --> 03:13:07,360
to know more, we're going to
have another form to reach out

3116
03:13:07,360 --> 03:13:10,880
and we'll, we'll set you up with
some of our missionaries.

3117
03:13:11,760 --> 03:13:14,920
Absolutely.
And answer some questions and,

3118
03:13:14,960 --> 03:13:17,200
and get that stuff sorted out.
And if somebody's like, hey, I,

3119
03:13:17,200 --> 03:13:20,200
I like the idea of doing
Sacrament with you guys, but

3120
03:13:20,200 --> 03:13:21,520
that's all.
But that's it.

3121
03:13:21,640 --> 03:13:22,240
That's OK.
That's.

3122
03:13:22,240 --> 03:13:23,880
OK.
If you're like, hey, I, I like

3123
03:13:23,880 --> 03:13:25,880
the idea of the men's and
women's organizations, but I

3124
03:13:25,880 --> 03:13:28,400
want to do Sacrament on my own.
That's OK.

3125
03:13:28,960 --> 03:13:31,760
Or you doing sacrament the LDS
church, I mean, I think that's

3126
03:13:31,760 --> 03:13:33,560
still valid, right?
Absolutely.

3127
03:13:33,600 --> 03:13:38,120
So the opportunity here is to
participate just to take

3128
03:13:38,120 --> 03:13:40,320
whatever is valuable as much as
valuable.

3129
03:13:40,920 --> 03:13:46,440
And we want to be here to serve.
We want to be here to help and

3130
03:13:46,560 --> 03:13:50,320
and help you just get set up.
Absolutely.

3131
03:13:50,600 --> 03:13:54,240
Get back to living the the
restoration because this was the

3132
03:13:54,240 --> 03:13:57,480
biggest thing for me.
The biggest thing for me was as

3133
03:13:57,480 --> 03:14:02,720
I'm in that deconstructed place,
I'm finding these old books and

3134
03:14:02,720 --> 03:14:06,360
I'm finding these old doctrines,
and they were beautiful to me.

3135
03:14:07,480 --> 03:14:10,960
The Adam God doctrine changed my
relationship with my Heavenly

3136
03:14:10,960 --> 03:14:16,800
Father in a, in a meaningful,
impactful way.

3137
03:14:17,520 --> 03:14:22,280
And on the one hand, you've got,
you know what Denver Sniffer was

3138
03:14:22,280 --> 03:14:26,920
selling, which to me felt very
dark because it was saying that

3139
03:14:26,920 --> 03:14:33,040
the restoration failed Joseph.
Joseph didn't pull it off and

3140
03:14:33,040 --> 03:14:36,960
Brigham completely side railed
it and it's and and the

3141
03:14:36,960 --> 03:14:40,000
restoration's been lost.
And that was really dark.

3142
03:14:40,000 --> 03:14:42,520
That was the thing that really
disturbed me the most about it.

3143
03:14:42,520 --> 03:14:46,120
And then I find some of Ogden
Kraut's books and stuff, and I'm

3144
03:14:46,200 --> 03:14:49,080
and I'm reading about the old
doctrine, this old history,

3145
03:14:49,080 --> 03:14:52,360
these things I had no idea
about, having been raised in the

3146
03:14:52,360 --> 03:14:54,720
Elias Church.
And these were beautiful things

3147
03:14:54,720 --> 03:14:56,720
to me.
Some of them were kind of hard

3148
03:14:56,720 --> 03:14:58,240
to wrap my head around.
Sure.

3149
03:14:58,600 --> 03:15:02,280
But when I got there, it was
better.

3150
03:15:02,840 --> 03:15:05,920
It was a better Mormonism.
This was, I'm reading about

3151
03:15:05,920 --> 03:15:09,040
things like couples doing prayer
circles in their own home.

3152
03:15:09,840 --> 03:15:12,240
That was a thing.
That was a thing.

3153
03:15:13,360 --> 03:15:17,240
Families had altars in their
homes and they and and couples

3154
03:15:17,240 --> 03:15:19,840
who'd been endowed could could
do their own prayer circles.

3155
03:15:20,040 --> 03:15:23,320
Yeah, dude, that was the thing
clear up to the 70s, right?

3156
03:15:23,320 --> 03:15:25,760
Like it hasn't been that long.
Right.

3157
03:15:27,040 --> 03:15:29,880
That shows you how new some of
these changes really are.

3158
03:15:30,280 --> 03:15:32,640
But that has been a beautiful
blessing in my family,

3159
03:15:32,640 --> 03:15:35,440
absolutely, and I can't imagine
now living without it.

3160
03:15:35,600 --> 03:15:39,360
And so there's some good stuff
to be had, fundamentalism.

3161
03:15:39,400 --> 03:15:44,640
And even if you don't end up
landing in fundamentalism, if

3162
03:15:44,640 --> 03:15:47,640
they can help you get back,
regain your testimony of the

3163
03:15:47,640 --> 03:15:49,800
restoration, and figure out
where you're supposed to be.

3164
03:15:49,960 --> 03:15:51,720
Praise God.
Praise God, that's all.

3165
03:15:51,720 --> 03:15:55,160
That's all we're trying to do.
That's all I that's my agenda is

3166
03:15:55,160 --> 03:15:57,920
to help people.
Rekindle the fire.

3167
03:15:58,000 --> 03:16:01,880
Rekindle that fire and to be a
part of something that that they

3168
03:16:01,880 --> 03:16:03,880
feel like represents their
values.

3169
03:16:04,240 --> 03:16:07,560
Absolutely.
Well dude, that was epic.

3170
03:16:08,680 --> 03:16:10,560
It's going to get fun now.
Yeah, yeah.

3171
03:16:10,720 --> 03:16:14,080
On to doing stuff, Is there
anything that that we were

3172
03:16:14,080 --> 03:16:17,280
remiss in talking about you want
to cover before we wrap this up?

3173
03:16:19,160 --> 03:16:21,680
You know, I think it'd be about
covered.

3174
03:16:21,680 --> 03:16:24,000
I mean, I imagine there's going
to be a lot of questions and.

3175
03:16:24,400 --> 03:16:26,840
Yeah, there will be as we as it
goes along here.

3176
03:16:27,640 --> 03:16:35,040
So one thing I want to wrap up
with is, is this from here on

3177
03:16:35,040 --> 03:16:39,000
out, with the permission of
whoever emails me, I want to

3178
03:16:39,000 --> 03:16:42,880
turn those right over to that
missionary group because quite

3179
03:16:42,880 --> 03:16:47,080
frankly, I've done a poor job in
being able to answer everybody's

3180
03:16:47,080 --> 03:16:50,000
e-mail as quickly as I'd like
if.

3181
03:16:51,040 --> 03:16:51,960
People are willing.
Right.

3182
03:16:52,000 --> 03:16:54,240
Yeah.
If people are willing, I would

3183
03:16:54,240 --> 03:16:57,560
like to pass those along and you
can just put in your e-mail, you

3184
03:16:57,560 --> 03:17:00,280
know, can pass along or
whatever, just so I know.

3185
03:17:00,840 --> 03:17:04,920
But also there are people in
Europe that are now emailing me.

3186
03:17:05,640 --> 03:17:09,400
OK.
And so there, this, this is one

3187
03:17:09,400 --> 03:17:12,960
of the reasons I'm so excited
about this are, are, are these

3188
03:17:12,960 --> 03:17:15,600
reasons, right?
We can reach people that we

3189
03:17:15,600 --> 03:17:20,320
normally would not be able to
reach in a ministering kind of

3190
03:17:20,320 --> 03:17:24,400
way because of distance and
separation.

3191
03:17:24,760 --> 03:17:27,440
That is gone.
That is off the table.

3192
03:17:28,240 --> 03:17:33,840
Next, this is, and I can't
stress this enough, this is not

3193
03:17:33,840 --> 03:17:38,160
a church not looking to supplant
any other group, any other

3194
03:17:38,160 --> 03:17:42,200
religious organization.
This is a bridge to get people

3195
03:17:42,200 --> 03:17:45,280
to where they're supposed to go,
whether that's the LDS church,

3196
03:17:45,520 --> 03:17:50,040
whether that is the AUB, the
Nielsen Naylors, the Missouri

3197
03:17:50,040 --> 03:17:54,720
group, whatever it is, we just
want to see you wherever it is

3198
03:17:54,720 --> 03:17:57,880
God wants you to be.
So there's no agendas here about

3199
03:17:57,880 --> 03:18:01,680
where you're going to end up.
And then two, we're not standing

3200
03:18:01,680 --> 03:18:05,280
in the way of those ordinances
and we're not saying yes or no.

3201
03:18:05,280 --> 03:18:07,440
We'll just point you in the
right direction to go find

3202
03:18:07,440 --> 03:18:13,000
somebody if you need ordinances.
And I'm, I'm super excited about

3203
03:18:13,000 --> 03:18:15,800
this.
One last thing before I wrap

3204
03:18:15,800 --> 03:18:22,760
this up totally is I posted this
earlier this week, but go check

3205
03:18:22,760 --> 03:18:25,160
out and I'll post it.
I'll post the link in the in

3206
03:18:25,160 --> 03:18:30,600
this episode show notes as well.
Amon Jeffs could use our help a

3207
03:18:30,600 --> 03:18:33,720
lot.
He is, he is him and his family

3208
03:18:33,720 --> 03:18:36,800
are up against it right now.
And they're, they're trying to

3209
03:18:36,800 --> 03:18:40,640
get some money because quite
frankly, the diagnosis his

3210
03:18:40,640 --> 03:18:43,400
little girl's got, it's going to
take a lot of healing and a lot

3211
03:18:43,400 --> 03:18:47,960
of money to get it done.
So if you were at all capable,

3212
03:18:47,960 --> 03:18:50,680
jump on that GoFundMe link.
I'll put in the show notes here.

3213
03:18:51,200 --> 03:18:53,720
Donate, help him get to where he
needs to be.

3214
03:18:56,040 --> 03:18:58,440
Can't tell you how much I'm
impressed with him to be able to

3215
03:18:58,440 --> 03:19:03,320
come out of what he came out of,
hold his testimony intact and by

3216
03:19:03,320 --> 03:19:08,080
all accounts, walk in it like he
talks it and he could just use

3217
03:19:08,080 --> 03:19:10,000
our help.
And that's we should be here for

3218
03:19:10,000 --> 03:19:13,080
that Justin dude, it was
awesome.

3219
03:19:13,840 --> 03:19:14,880
All right here.
We.

3220
03:19:15,240 --> 03:19:15,960
Go.
Here we go.

3221
03:19:16,440 --> 03:19:18,400
All right.
Bye everybody.

3222
03:19:49,440 --> 03:19:52,240
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.