Episode #197: Abuse & Cover Up In The LDS Church W/Taylor Smith WARNING NOT FOR CHILDREN!!

1
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,680
The.
You're listening to the Mormon

2
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:40,920
Renegade podcast, Taylor, How's
it going, man?

3
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,600
Oh, it's been going great.
How are you, Dave?

4
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,520
Doing good, doing good.
Although I have to admit, I'm

5
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:53,960
pretty nervous for this episode.
This this conversation is

6
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,360
fraught with with peril.
Yeah, there's only literally

7
00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,320
almost anything else I'd rather
be talking about tonight.

8
00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,920
Right.
Nevertheless.

9
00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,600
Me too.
Me too.

10
00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,080
So before we dive in here, I do
want to give kind of a

11
00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,360
disclaimer here, a warning,
whatever you want to call it.

12
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,840
We're going to be talking about
some pretty heavy stuff.

13
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:24,360
We're going to be talking about
abuse in the LDS church and the

14
00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,000
apparent cover ups that are now
happening along with that.

15
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,240
So if you have children that
you're listening in front of, be

16
00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,760
very careful.
I would, you know, personally, I

17
00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,440
would say no kid under probably
the age of 16 would be what I'm

18
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,640
most comfortable with because
we're going to cover some heavy

19
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,160
stuff.
And this is not for little

20
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,280
years.
Next, if you've been a victim of

21
00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,480
this, I'm giving you the warning
now this, this could dredge up

22
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,520
some stuff.
So please use some caution as

23
00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,760
you listen to this episode.
But the more I thought about

24
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,400
this particular episode, the
more convinced I became that I

25
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,280
had to say something about it,
that I couldn't just let it lie

26
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,120
because trust me, I wanted to
stay away from this.

27
00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,680
And look, most of the most of
the conversations I have are

28
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,880
usually instigated by by the
person coming on the podcast.

29
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,480
This one was all me.
This was mine.

30
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,520
My I believe that that the Lord
wants us to talk about these

31
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,400
things.
So, Taylor, I'm both thankful

32
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,120
you're here and sorry you're
here, brother.

33
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,320
I'm I'm just your wing buddy,
brother.

34
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,960
I didn't want you to March into
this battle alone.

35
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,840
So.
Well, I I appreciate that.

36
00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,800
Yeah, for sure.
And it is, it is a heavy topic

37
00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,560
and it's, you know, I will say
this early on in my kind of

38
00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,320
journey, it is something that I
spent a lot of time researching

39
00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:58,080
and kind of thinking about.
And, and frankly, I would not

40
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,120
say that was the healthiest
thing to, for me to do.

41
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:07,040
But I think it's natural as part
of kind of the, the processing,

42
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,360
the the betrayal trauma that is
real of, you know, 'cause I was

43
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,880
raised, born and raised from the
day I was born up in, you know,

44
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:20,480
till, you know, well into
adulthood and had been taught

45
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,400
this tradition that, you know,
the, the brethren couldn't lead

46
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,240
the church astray.
And that they were prophets,

47
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,600
seers and revelators, You know,
just as much as Moses and Joshua

48
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,800
and any of the ancient, you
know, or Peter, the apostles in,

49
00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,800
in Christ day like that.
They were just as legit of that

50
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,720
same, you know, moral caliber
and etcetera.

51
00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,280
And, you know, and we're not
here to make any personal

52
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,840
accusations, but we, what we are
here to talk about is kind of

53
00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:57,200
institutional rot and neglect.
And there is a degree of

54
00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,760
responsibility every individual
leader and member in the church

55
00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,400
has to confront these types of
things.

56
00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,040
And so I hate to be the, I hate
to be involved with, you know, a

57
00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,000
painful truth, but truth's
truth.

58
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,600
Someday we got to confront it.
Absolutely.

59
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,480
You know, and I want to say
this, I want everyone to be

60
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,640
aware of a couple of things
here. 1 is we are not throwing

61
00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,000
every single LDS Bishop or LDS
stake president under the bus

62
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,480
here.
That's not what we're doing.

63
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,360
Look, a lot of those men are
placed in no win situations a

64
00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,320
lot of time and there's a system
and we're going to go over all

65
00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:43,480
of this here as we do this.
In some ways they're, they're

66
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,760
their hands are tied, right.
They don't necessarily have say

67
00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,960
to make certain decisions.
It's very clear from, from the

68
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,880
handbook of instructions on what
they should do.

69
00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:02,000
The next thing I want to say is
that nobody's immune to this.

70
00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,800
I am not, I am not trying to
pick on the LDS church and say,

71
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,160
you know, they're, it's only
them.

72
00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,000
That's not true, right?
You and I are both keenly aware

73
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,200
Warren Jeffs did some damage to
fundamentalism as a whole,

74
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,840
right?
You got to call that out when

75
00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:22,520
you see it.
The dude was a dirtbag and he

76
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,800
had to pay for that.
Other men have engaged in these

77
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,000
practices and fundamentalism.
I'm not saying that that we are

78
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,200
perfect.
I do believe at this point,

79
00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,320
though, we are a little more
cognizant of it because we've

80
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,800
been beat about the head and
shoulders with it for a while.

81
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,240
And I think we're maybe a little
more cognizant of it and we're a

82
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,000
little more apt to get, get
proper parties involved when it

83
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,960
happens.
So just know I, as we talked

84
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,920
about this, I want to make it
clear that I'm not trying to

85
00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,120
whitewash our own history by
doing this.

86
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:59,040
I am keenly aware of the issues
that have creeped into, into

87
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:05,320
our, our community, if you will,
community mean fundamentalism at

88
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,920
large.
And so we yeah, but it's a, it's

89
00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,960
a heavy topic and it's one that
I saw creeping up more and more.

90
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,600
This this abuse that's happening
of, of children inside the LDS

91
00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,280
church.
And it's not.

92
00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:27,520
So I mean, the abuse is horrid
enough, but it seems like the

93
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:33,360
the system that it happens in
trying to make some exceptions

94
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,480
for certain guys.
And I think that has to be

95
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,360
called out and that has to be
recognized as wrong.

96
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,720
And look, you can take this to
the bank.

97
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,720
Everyone listening, whoever
hears this, if I got word

98
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,040
tomorrow that this was going on
and it was legit, you can bet

99
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,080
your bottom dollar I'm calling
you the proper authorities on

100
00:06:53,080 --> 00:07:00,960
this because an adult abusing a
child is, in my opinion, next

101
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,160
next to murder.
I can't think of anything else.

102
00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,520
It's, it's up there.
And I want, you know, I'm, I'm

103
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,240
so thankful Taylor's here
because Taylor has a perspective

104
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,840
that I don't even have.
I wasn't raised in the LDS

105
00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,880
church.
I was a convert at 17.

106
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,640
And literally my Bishop at that
time said, yeah, you better go

107
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,520
with the elders 'cause you're
asking some questions that might

108
00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:27,080
freak out the, the, the ironic
priesthood class.

109
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,360
So, yeah, so I, I don't even
have that experience, but

110
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,880
Taylor, he's raised in the
church, right?

111
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,800
He's gone through all these kind
of interviews and stuff.

112
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,040
And so I, I definitely am
thankful he's here because I

113
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,040
think this is going to give us
an opportunity to really dive

114
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,720
into the culture of what happens
in the church with some of these

115
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,960
interviews.
Yeah, Yeah.

116
00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,240
I don't really add on that.
Right, right.

117
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,760
So let's, let's go ahead and and
start here.

118
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,960
I want to start with with what
your experience was in the

119
00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:00,560
church.
And then we'll start talking

120
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,760
about some of these cases that
have come up.

121
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,440
Because I do think that some of
these interviews, I don't think

122
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,280
anyone meant it for it to be
this way.

123
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,920
And I think in a simpler time
they were fine.

124
00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,760
But we're not there anymore,
right?

125
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,560
We're, we were in a different
world now.

126
00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,840
And I think that requires us to
be a little more vigilant.

127
00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,320
So, Taylor, go through what it
was like as as you would go in

128
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,240
to interviews with bishops,
right, that those are big

129
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:35,799
milestones in the LDS Church.
Yeah, so I I grew up and

130
00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:41,080
honestly, I had overall
wonderful bishops.

131
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,320
You know, I had a couple of, you
know, family members that I

132
00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,640
loved dearly and, you know, that
that were just ride or die kind

133
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,120
of guys that I knew had my back
and, you know, were well

134
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:59,520
invested in in me.
I had other situations, you

135
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,760
know, later on as I went to
college and that sort of thing

136
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:09,840
where I had guys that I think
sincerely meant well, but they

137
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,360
didn't have the same interest.
They didn't have the same like

138
00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,880
love and and value of me.
I was just one of the people.

139
00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,200
And you know, when you're going
through a hard time that that

140
00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,880
translates into work and that
translates into difficulty.

141
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,960
And so I, I don't necessarily
blame these unpaid, untrained

142
00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,840
guys trying to help 20 year olds
navigate the world.

143
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,440
Like, I'm not, I'm not
condemning anybody, but I will

144
00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,960
say that, OK.
So just for those who may not be

145
00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:49,040
aware, within the LDS Church
from the age of eight, there is

146
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,840
a culture, a, a kind of
expectation that children are

147
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:59,760
going to go into a closed door
room, an office with no other

148
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,600
adults present except for one
man.

149
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,040
It's the Bishop of the ward.
And, you know, if the Bishop is

150
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,000
an honorable individual, all is
well.

151
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:15,760
But you know, sadly not all
bishops are honorable, as we're

152
00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,280
going to find out.
There's, there's sadly a lot of

153
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:24,480
situations that have come to
light where where that the, you

154
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,640
know, the, the, the character
and the, the honorability of the

155
00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:33,000
Bishop was, was misplaced trust.
And so we're going to, we're

156
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,400
going to talk about some of
that.

157
00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:41,640
But but, but because it is kind
of an expectation, it leads to

158
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,080
parents not even thinking twice
about let you know it as a

159
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,880
parent.
I, I was, you know, the a hole

160
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,640
because I wasn't going to let my
daughter at age 7 go into a room

161
00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,280
and I liked the guy.
He was seemed like a very

162
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,560
friendly, genuine guy.
He was a grandpa.

163
00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:05,040
Like I don't have any
necessarily concerns that he was

164
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,120
going to like abuse my daughter
or nothing like that.

165
00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:12,360
But I was the a hole because I
just wasn't going to let my

166
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:17,480
daughter go into a closed room
situation with a guy, period.

167
00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,200
I don't care who the guy is.
He could be President Nelson

168
00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,720
himself or at the time President
Monson.

169
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,520
You know, I and it's not
personal.

170
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,320
It's just as a father.
But yet because it is the

171
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:34,160
expectation, because it is such
a cultural like ubiquitous, you

172
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,240
know, taken for granted type of
situation.

173
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,920
Nobody thinks twice any other
situation.

174
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,680
If you were in a job interview,
if you were in a like

175
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:47,200
professional setting and, or you
know, social setting, would you

176
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,960
ever as a parent allow your 8
year old child to go behind a

177
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,960
closed door with a grown man for
30?

178
00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,680
You know, could be, could be as
quick as 5-10 minutes.

179
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:01,840
But generally they visit and
like, you know, it's, there's

180
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,040
certain questions that the
handbook specifies that they

181
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,280
need to ask.
And these would be called

182
00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,640
worthiness interviews,
preparatory to baptism or, you

183
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,400
know, serving in callings or
whatnot.

184
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,640
Is there any other setting that
you as a parent, you know, those

185
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,400
who are listening would, would,
would just not bat an eye and

186
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,160
say, oh, yeah, sure, my kid can
go talk to that grown man behind

187
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,640
a closed door for up to an hour.
I don't think so.

188
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,480
And but yet it's a blind spot
within the LDS culture simply

189
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:37,080
because it's kind of listed as
an expectation for, you know,

190
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,120
worthiness.
And, you know, and if you're

191
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,360
getting called as the elders
quorum president or well, as as

192
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,800
children, let's so let's say
you're a 12 year old and you get

193
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,960
called as the the deacons quorum
president, like I was, you know,

194
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,320
you have a worthiness interview.
And, and part of this worthiness

195
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,440
interview, especially as you
enter into puberty and, and

196
00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,600
that's phase of life isn't going
to include quite specific

197
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,160
questions about do you look at
pornography?

198
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,640
Do you masturbate?
And these types of things that,

199
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,760
you know, I mean, my parents
talked to me about the birds and

200
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,520
the bees, which is really more
that's like really more a

201
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:21,440
generous term for my dad alluded
to stuff that my friends had

202
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,760
already told me about.
And and it would.

203
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:25,360
Awkward situation.
You know what I mean?

204
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,800
But but yet nevertheless, it's,
it's, it's something that I was

205
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:36,840
totally unequipped for as a 12,
you know, 12 year old kid and I,

206
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,680
I just wasn't prepared for that.
And yet it was something that

207
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:46,360
happened.
And, you know, my parents either

208
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,880
didn't know or they thought it
was OK or that they and my

209
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,200
parents, my mom was a Mama bear.
My dad would have gone to war.

210
00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:57,320
He would have, you know, he
would have not thought twice

211
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,840
about his own life if if he
thought one of his kids was in

212
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,000
danger of being abused or
anything like that.

213
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,760
And yet neither of them even
thought twice about it.

214
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,960
And so that's what I'm talking
about, is if there's a culture

215
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:16,360
and expectation that is set at
an institutional level that is

216
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,600
incongruent with our normal
sentiments and standards and,

217
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,920
you know, the responsibility
that every parent in the LDS

218
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:30,280
Church feels for our children.
And, you know, not only that

219
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,720
they're, they're totally
unprepared to.

220
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,680
Yeah, they're not trained as
psychologists or, you know,

221
00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,320
therapists, you know, and, and
so even the best intended

222
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,120
individuals who have hearts of
gold and are doing their best

223
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,680
and they're serving for free.
Like, I'm not criticizing any

224
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,560
individuals who are in this
situation hold these callings

225
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,960
unless of course, they are
perpetrators of abuse.

226
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:59,040
But, but if I am, I think it's
important to acknowledge the

227
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,480
systemic failure of the
institution at that level and

228
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,840
you know, kind of the the
paranoia about personal

229
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,560
confession types of situations.
So I don't know is that if you

230
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,760
want me to go into more further
detail or is that kind of a a

231
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,320
good like kick off?
That's, that's a good segue.

232
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,640
And look, if you feel inspired
to share something else later

233
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,560
on, feel free.
But yeah, I, I think that's good

234
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,280
for right now for sure.
So I want to talk about a couple

235
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,720
of these cases and then I'm
going to show some stuff that's

236
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,800
probably a bit disconcerting.
And it's nothing graphic, but

237
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:42,160
it's just a, a list of it's kind
of a case count for, for how

238
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,600
many of these things are
actually happening right now in

239
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,960
the LDS Church.
I certainly was shocked when I

240
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:53,040
found out how much there was.
And I think there's something

241
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,560
else important to keep in mind
here, and that is I believe in

242
00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,600
repentance.
I believe in the atonement.

243
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,440
I also believe in what the
savior said that if you offend

244
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,880
one of my little ones, it was
probably better that you were

245
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,120
cast into the ocean with a
millstone around your neck.

246
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,160
Now I'm that's not a call for
violence.

247
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:16,400
Nobody do that.
I, I will disavow that right

248
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,680
now.
None of that, However, this is

249
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,040
a, a, a grievous sin.
The, the other thing I, I want

250
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,680
to say here again is that this
is not all bishops, right?

251
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,240
And certainly anytime you get
that many people together in one

252
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,200
organization, I don't care how
good you are.

253
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:38,840
I don't care how in tune you
are.

254
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,400
At some point something's bound
to slip through.

255
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:47,880
If, if Joseph Smith wasn't above
bringing on, you know, William

256
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,920
Law, we can't, you know.
Or John C Bennett.

257
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:53,280
Or Yeah.
Right.

258
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,760
Yeah, Any one of those guys,
Right.

259
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,680
And so it's bad enough when it
happens, but I believe the true

260
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,640
character of an organization is
revealed and how they're going

261
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,800
to handle that.
And that's what I really want to

262
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,720
focus on here.
It's not even the bishops.

263
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,880
It's it's more the system at
play that is preventing things

264
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,119
from happening.
So with that, I want to go ahead

265
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,960
and I'm going to share my screen
here and we're going to dive in.

266
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,880
So the first time this really
pops up on my radar is back in

267
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,240
2022.
And this is an article from the

268
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:36,960
AP about a family who lives out
by Bisbee, Arizona.

269
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,000
And the dad's name was Paul
Adams.

270
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:46,200
The mom's name was Lisa Adams.
The bishops was his name was

271
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:52,960
Herod, John Herod.
And the, the, the girl that was

272
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:58,160
abused here, she goes by a
pseudonym of MJ to protect her

273
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,160
her her identity.
I'm going to sum this article

274
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,760
up, but I'm also going to put it
with the show notes because this

275
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,960
is a long article.
This this reporter really did

276
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,960
his homework and he does a
really good job of laying

277
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,000
everything out.
I'm going to give the highlights

278
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,320
or else we'd be here now or just
reading this article.

279
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:29,000
So Paul Adams works for the
Department of of he's he's a

280
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,760
border agent for Border Patrol
In 2017.

281
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,640
He gets arrested in a global
sting that originates in New

282
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,920
Zealand.
And on one of the videos that he

283
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,600
was tagged in, shouldn't say
tag, he was in one of the videos

284
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,760
molesting his own child.
That's horrible, right?

285
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:59,560
Starts to go to court.
He offs himself, just I'm done.

286
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:05,400
He takes takes his own life.
It's over, we think, until the

287
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:11,720
history starts to be revealed on
this, so long before this

288
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,600
happened, seven years before
this, Paul Adams comes in and he

289
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,320
confesses to his Bishop that
he's been molesting his

290
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,720
daughter, who was at the time
five years old.

291
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,600
The Bishop calls the helpline.
Now the helpline.

292
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,280
The bishops are instructed
anytime there's abuse, your

293
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:40,200
first step, number one step, you
call the helpline.

294
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,400
The helpline then put you in
touch with Curtain Mcconkey Law

295
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,520
Offices.
They are the attorneys that are

296
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,880
the attorneys for the LDS Church
and they have attorneys on call

297
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,200
24/7 so that if a Bishop
encounters an issue like this,

298
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,240
he can get a hold of them.
So he calls the helpline.

299
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,880
Somebody from Curt Mcconkey gets
on the line with him and says,

300
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,680
OK, where you at?
I'm in Arizona.

301
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,280
Tell me what's going on, he
tells.

302
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:22,240
The attorney, what's happening?
The attorney says you cannot

303
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,560
report this.
Cannot.

304
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:34,440
It's against the law, based on
congregant pastoral care.

305
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:35,560
Yeah.
Clergy.

306
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,360
Peninson Confidentiality.
Thank you.

307
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:38,800
That's the words I was looking
for.

308
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,400
So he he tells him you can't
report.

309
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:51,440
So this Bishop who is a, he's a
doctor, actually, he's forced

310
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:58,520
just to basically do what he can
in terms of putting the father

311
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,320
on disciplinary probation, all
these other things.

312
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,160
And he continues to counsel with
the man.

313
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,800
Paul Adams goes back to his home
and for another seven years, he

314
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:14,320
molests his daughter.
His wife has another baby and at

315
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,480
six weeks old he starts to
molest her and post pictures

316
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:23,080
online and then he makes his
older daughter hold the camera

317
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:28,760
for him while while he does
these perverse acts with his

318
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:35,160
daughters.
To make matters worse, another

319
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:36,640
Bishop comes along.
Right.

320
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,480
This is a 7 year process.
Bishops only usually serve for

321
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,880
five.
About 3 years into the

322
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,320
additional 7 years, a new Bishop
is called.

323
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,240
That Bishop talks to the to the
previous Bishop.

324
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,960
The new Bishop doesn't feel good
about it, so he calls the

325
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,360
helpline again to try and get
this family some help.

326
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,840
Again, Curtin Mcconkey says you
cannot report.

327
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,520
Finally, somebody from church
headquarters says, yeah, it's

328
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,720
time to organize a council and
let's excommunicate him, which

329
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:26,240
they do, but that's it, OK.
And it results in not just

330
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,120
another seven years of abuse for
the first girl, but abuse for

331
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:34,880
this toddler, this infant.
And the whole time the church is

332
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:42,280
standing on on this, this
doctrine, this legal doctrine

333
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:48,160
that says bishops can't report.
But here's where it gets dicey.

334
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,520
Taylor, in this case, Kurt and
Mcconkey gave him bad legal

335
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,280
advice.
And in my opinion, it's

336
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,280
absolutely faulty legal advice.
And let me tell you how I know

337
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,520
it's faulty legal advice and how
I think it was intentional.

338
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,440
I think it was intentional
because a dope like me could

339
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:13,720
jump on and ask Google about
what the Arizona law is and you

340
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,920
know what?
It spit it right out at me.

341
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,640
OK.
The law doesn't say he can't

342
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,280
report.
The law says he has no legal

343
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:28,160
obligation to report.
Now this Bishop, the first one

344
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,880
who was a Doctor Who I get the
sense he was all for reporting

345
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:42,320
is operating under again, my
opinion intentionally bad legal

346
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,280
advice to save the quote good
name of the church.

347
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:55,000
OK, so that's case number one.
Now I want to go to.

348
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,920
Can I can I just really quickly
interject so?

349
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,840
Yeah, please.
There is a one of the one of the

350
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:09,800
few vocal opponents of Nazism in
Germany in the in the 1930s was

351
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,520
a pastor.
And shoot, I'm blanking on his

352
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:21,840
name right now, but he he, he
made a statement that taps into

353
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,160
a universal principle.
He says that silence in the face

354
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:31,560
of evil is evil.
Not to speak is to speak.

355
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:32,920
Bonhoeffer.
Was his name.

356
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,400
Bonhoeffer Dietrich Bonhoeffer
yes and he says so silence in

357
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,960
the face of evil is evil.
Not to speak is to speak, not to

358
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:49,080
act is to act.
And so this I, I, and you know,

359
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,520
just because you had orders it,
you know, Nuremberg trials were

360
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,000
quite clear that, well, I was
ordered to do so.

361
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,360
That doesn't hold up.
That doesn't hold water.

362
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:06,000
If you're guilty of high crimes,
misdemeanors, you know, like

363
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,720
sexual abuse and exploitation,
murder, those types of things,

364
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,200
just because, well, my, my
superior commander told me to,

365
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,280
that doesn't, that's not a
defense.

366
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,080
And so I'm not comparing this to
Nazism, but I think that the

367
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,320
there's there we can apply that
universal principle that there

368
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,560
is a personal responsibility to
report.

369
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:34,400
But I'm not condemning the
Bishop either because the church

370
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:42,480
lawyer network that you don't
necessarily you don't go against

371
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,440
that like the the church legal
team is kind of a legendary

372
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:53,840
entity in its own right, right.
And so I just, I just think that

373
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,000
it it's it's tragic at every
level, but we we have to look at

374
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,600
inaction is not passive.
Inaction is active and there is

375
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:11,120
a great deal of responsibility
for not just the the person who

376
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:13,160
failed to report, but the legal
counsel.

377
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,600
Like you're bringing up the bad
legal advice that was given and,

378
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,160
and kind of the impression that
was given to this Bishop trying

379
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:26,720
to serve that led to an
additional 7 years of just

380
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,520
absolutely heinous abuse.
That, you know, the one thing

381
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,880
that Christ said it would be
better if you were never born.

382
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,920
You should have had a millstone
put about your neck and drown in

383
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,880
the depths of the ocean.
Like, you know, murder and

384
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,480
adultery, those are capital
offenses.

385
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,080
But he's not talking about you
should have never been born or

386
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,440
you should.
It would have been better.

387
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,040
Or you should be drowned in the
depths of the sea.

388
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,560
That's that's kind of reserved
for child abuse.

389
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,560
And so we have to just not
acknowledge that.

390
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,240
You know, in your mind went
right to where mine was right,

391
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,000
because one of the points I was
going to make here is that OK?

392
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,800
So let's just assume it was
illegal to to report.

393
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,400
Well, you know what was legal in
Germany in the 30s and 40s?

394
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,560
Killing Jews, right?
Just cause something is legal

395
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,880
doesn't make it right.
Let's get that out of the way

396
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,640
right now.
Those two things, the word legal

397
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,520
and being right, don't always go
together.

398
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,160
OK, moving on to the second
story.

399
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,920
This one was not too long ago,
just a few weeks ago is all this

400
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:43,280
this one is was posted August
4th of 2025 and I think this was

401
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,240
the original article but I could
be wrong.

402
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,080
So this one's fairly short so I
am going to read this one.

403
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,440
West Jordan, an 88 year old man,
was charged Monday with inviting

404
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,240
a young girl into his house by
offering her candy, then

405
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,720
sexually abusing her.
Ronald Charles Jones of West

406
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,360
Jordan is charged in 3rd Degree
District Court with child

407
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:07,520
kidnapping and three counts of
aggravated sexual abuse of a

408
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,040
child, first degree felonies,
plus unlawful kissing of a child

409
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,240
and lewdness involving a child,
a Class A misdemeanor.

410
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,720
On July 9th, a girl who was
under the age of eight told

411
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,080
police she was riding her bike
home from her friend's house and

412
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,320
saw the suspect sitting on his
front porch and he wanted to

413
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,440
give her candy.
The victim said she went inside

414
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,640
the suspect's home for candy,
which he had done previous,

415
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,120
which she had done previously,
and the suspect took her to his

416
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:38,280
bedroom, according to a police
booking affidavit.

417
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,960
The girl later told police that
she received treats from brother

418
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,560
Jones, later identified as
defendant Ronald Jones.

419
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,560
She said Jones was not a good
person and he wanted her to keep

420
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,480
secrets, the charging documents
allege.

421
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,000
After attempting to
inappropriately touch the girl,

422
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,840
she said Jones often gave her
candy and asked her to keep it a

423
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,320
secret, the charges state.
On this day, the girl said she

424
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,600
resisted by telling him it
wasn't.

425
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,520
Excuse me.
On this day, the girl said she

426
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,080
resisted by telling him it was
against the law, according to

427
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,240
the charges.
But Jones, whose pop prosecutors

428
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,840
say exposed himself to the girl
and inappropriately touched her,

429
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,480
would not let her leave the
house without kissing him on the

430
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,000
lips.
The girl said once she was able

431
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,640
to get away, she ran upstairs
out of the house and rode her

432
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,160
bike home.
The charges state that after the

433
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,800
girl's mother asked her daughter
what she was doing at the Jones

434
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,160
residence, she told her that
what it had allegedly happened.

435
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,040
The mother then called the
police.

436
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,040
Prosecutors say Jones used his
position as a trusted member of

437
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,960
the victims church congregation,
where he has held several high

438
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,760
positions.
Jones admitted he had often

439
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,520
times he often times hands out
candy to children and that

440
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,040
children in the neighborhood
frequently visit his house, the

441
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,760
charges say.
Investigators have requested

442
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,040
that he be held in the Salt Lake
County Jail without the

443
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,160
possibility of posting bail,
depending a trial.

444
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,560
OK, Taylor pop quiz.
What's not mentioned in this

445
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,800
article?
I feel like we should have

446
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,040
Jeopardy music.
What's not mentioned in this

447
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:28,480
article?
Well, there's he didn't confess

448
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,360
this to a church leader.
You know, there's not legal

449
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,320
counsel involved here.
It's just reported straight to

450
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,760
the police.
You know the mom didn't that.

451
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,880
That.
The mom didn't call Curtin

452
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,960
Mcconkey and get legal advice
before she did anything.

453
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,080
That is true, but you know what?
Even there's more telling.

454
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,800
They don't name what the what
church it is.

455
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,400
What's Jordan?
Utah.

456
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,640
Salt Lake City suburb?
Take your guess.

457
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,600
What church?
This is you and me know, but

458
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,440
again, it's not mentioned.
And also this same story goes

459
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,880
out nationally.
By the way, the AP picked this

460
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,840
up and the AP was the one that
was like, well, what church is

461
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,520
it?
And it's not till the AP asks

462
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,920
questions that it comes out.
Now let's do just a little

463
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:27,000
looking at raw Ronald C Jones
just so we can get a feel for

464
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,120
you know what, what kind of
stuff we're dealing with here.

465
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,160
So.
Former Bishop, former state

466
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:36,880
president.
Oh, yeah, dude.

467
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,440
LDS Church service timeline.
Here's where it gets nuts.

468
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,480
In 1990, after the Mormon
church, Mae Jones, director of

469
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,080
its military's relations
committee, He was charged with

470
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,200
sex solicitation.
Jones pled guilty within weeks,

471
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,480
but a 1991 news article
indicates he still held that

472
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,400
church position.
Taylor, you grew up in the

473
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,600
church.
I spent a number of years in the

474
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,960
church to the average
run-of-the-mill member.

475
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,960
What happens when you solicit
sex from someone who's not not

476
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,040
your wife?
You are immediately called to a

477
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,880
disciplinary council where at
minimum you would be

478
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,400
disfellowshipped.
And most likely, especially in

479
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,320
this situation where it's not
just fornication of a young man,

480
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,760
but like adultery, soliciting
sex.

481
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,840
That's like, that's like you're
hiring a pro a prostitute,

482
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,760
right.
That's not just, oh, I had a

483
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,280
moment of weakness.
It was and, and he and he was

484
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,880
married at the time.
He, he held a, a church

485
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,560
position, like an average member
would be excommunicated within

486
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,320
weeks, months, tops, couple
months.

487
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,520
But wow.
So the next year he still held

488
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,600
the church position.
Yeah, yeah.

489
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,280
Now I want to say this, good on
the church for excommunicating

490
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,640
people who who break, who break
that that marriage covenant.

491
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,520
I think that's that's probably a
good thing, right?

492
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,000
Help him back through
repentance.

493
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,280
But definitely something has to
happen.

494
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,160
But not for Mr. Jones.
Mr. Jones, in my opinion,

495
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,720
because he's high up, he gets
some special treatment because

496
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,240
again, we're back to guarding
the good name of the church.

497
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,880
OK, let's read on.
In 1995, Jones was convicted a

498
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,000
second time of an identical
charge.

499
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,760
We're trying to find out whether
the church knew about the

500
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:45,960
convictions or took any action.
OK, here is what this article

501
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,520
probably doesn't know, and
that's the Strengthening Church

502
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,640
Members Committee.
Now, for anyone who's unfamiliar

503
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,120
with the church, Church's
Strengthening Membership

504
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,960
Committee, what they essentially
do is they prowl the Internet.

505
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,080
They look at private
correspondence, they try to dig

506
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,280
up anything they can.
Social media posts and comments.

507
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,040
Social media posts you.
Know Facebook stalking people

508
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,360
all day.
Right.

509
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,480
There's no way the Church
doesn't know about that

510
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,040
conviction.
None.

511
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,400
There's no way they don't know.
OK, The church.

512
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:29,239
Mae Jones, a Palmyra, NY, temple
presidency counselor and sealer

513
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,960
in 2006.
OK.

514
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:39,480
And then here's his total church
resume, if you will, 66 to 67.

515
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,600
He's a Bishop.
He's a Bishop in San Antonio.

516
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:48,400
November 67.
Looks like he is a branch

517
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,639
president.
He's a branch president again in

518
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:57,480
71 in Fort Worth, a Bishop again
in San Antonio, a Bishop again

519
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,840
in Oklahoma, a state president
in Oklahoma, a regional

520
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,360
representative from 86 to 87.
That's the one we were talking

521
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,200
about when he was first
arrested. 1990 An administrative

522
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:15,400
assistant, LDS Church Military
Relations Committee 91 Director

523
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,840
of of the Military Relations
Committee. 2005 to 2006.

524
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:26,480
He is a state presidency
counselor. 2006 to 2009 Temple

525
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:31,400
Presidency member and sealer in
the Palmyra Temple and September

526
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,680
20th through December of
20/20/12 Ward Executive

527
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,040
Secretary.
This is a guy whose church

528
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,240
resume like if you're looking
for a guy to work the program

529
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,800
and go through quote priesthood
progression, this is your mom.

530
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,320
This is what the church likes to
see.

531
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:55,560
And so here they have a guy who
seems to be like, if these

532
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,760
things don't happen, I, I can
imagine this guy being a 70,

533
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,480
right, with this kind of of
reputation.

534
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,880
Yeah, well, it looks like he was
equivalent of a 7B because he

535
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,960
was the head of the Church
Military Relations Committee.

536
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,280
That's, that's essentially like
a, it's in the, it's in the

537
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,120
military, not private sector,
but that's the equivalent of a

538
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,280
general authority calling.
Absolutely it is.

539
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,560
Absolutely it is.
So I did look up what sexual

540
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,760
solicitation could be.
And not only could it be

541
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,200
prostitution, but it could also
be things like arranging to meet

542
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:35,880
an underage person.
I'm not saying that's what

543
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,280
happened.
I can't get access to it, but

544
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,000
that's a little broader of a
term than what you and I

545
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,880
typically, I think always
thought of.

546
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:49,320
So there's, there's all of this.
And again, the church goes out

547
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,120
of its way.
How does somebody get busted to

548
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:58,200
this in 1990 and then in 1991
he's he's still a stake

549
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,360
president or still in that very
high calling with the military?

550
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,880
Excuse me?
Right.

551
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,920
Now this just recently came out
and it's kind of sent

552
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:16,920
reverberation as well as the the
Arizona Supreme Court is opening

553
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,400
this case back up that I talked
about previously.

554
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,320
So all this is coming to the
forefront again.

555
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,280
That's why I want to next go to.
Hey, before we move on, can I

556
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:36,120
provide a little bit of a
scriptural standard that because

557
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,440
I, you know, ideally church
policy, handbook policy should

558
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,240
never contradict the Scriptures.
You know, maybe the scriptures

559
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:46,840
don't specify every little
nuance and, and, you know, so

560
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,720
maybe there could be some
procedural details that are not,

561
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,000
you know, always in the
Scriptures, but but it should

562
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,640
never outright contradict the
standards set forth by the word

563
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,160
of the Lord.
So Section 42 you this is hark,

564
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,200
this is Jesus Christ speaking
hearken, O ye elders of my

565
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,960
church and who have assembled
your souls together in my name,

566
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,640
even Jesus Christ, the Son of
the living God, the Savior of

567
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,760
the world.
And and that's verse one, the

568
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:18,360
intro verse 2, I say unto you,
hearken and hear and obey the

569
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,600
law which I shall give unto you.
So this is Section 42 of the

570
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,200
Doctrine and Covenants.
This was established by Joseph

571
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,720
Smith as the law of the Church
and they had been in through a

572
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,160
period of preparation before
this was received.

573
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,600
They gathered to believe it was
Kirtland.

574
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,840
It was the Father Morley farm,
if I recall, and or maybe it was

575
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,320
the John Johnson farm.
But anyway, and and they had

576
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,440
been preparing for this for some
time leading up to it saying,

577
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,600
Hey, prepare yourselves, I'm
going to give you my law.

578
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,960
It comes.
This is Section 42.

579
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:55,280
Section 42, starting in verse 22
says, says this, Thou shalt love

580
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,640
thy wife with all thy heart,
shalt cleave unto her, and none

581
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,720
else.
And he that looketh upon a woman

582
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:03,200
to the lust after her shall deny
the faith and shall not have the

583
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,160
spirit.
And if he repents not, he shall

584
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,840
be cast out.
So that would be excommunicated,

585
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,160
removed from the church
membership roles.

586
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:13,280
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
And he that committeth adultery

587
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,560
and repenteth not shall be cast
out, but he that has committed

588
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,600
adultery and repents with all
his heart and forsaketh it and

589
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,800
doeth it no more, thou shalt
forgive.

590
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,320
OK, so this is far more of AI
hate to say liberal, but you

591
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,040
know, this is far less harsh.
This is a far more gentle

592
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,120
standard that's being outlined
here than we have in the

593
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,800
biblical, you know, Mosaic law,
which is basically first offense

594
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:44,320
stoned, you know, but but in
this situation, it's, it's very

595
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,360
clear that you have to forsake
it.

596
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,560
You have to repent means change.
Forsake means you don't go back

597
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,680
to it.
Behold in verse 26.

598
00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,120
But if he do with it again, he
shall not be forgiven, but shall

599
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,800
be cast out.
So, so I mean, one offense is

600
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,200
one thing, but a repeat
conviction and he pled guilty.

601
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,840
In both cases, within four years
of each other or five years, 90

602
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:20,240
to 95, whatever that was.
Yes, What we have here is, First

603
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:23,400
off, to your point, an
inequitable application of

604
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,440
church policies and procedures
as standard operating

605
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,240
procedures.
Because if a lay guy got caught,

606
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:35,000
busted for adultery and come and
pled guilty within five years,

607
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,440
he would be exed that, you know,
his career is over as far as

608
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,040
church leadership goes.
And and they do keep these

609
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,400
things notated on the record,
even though it might not be

610
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,960
visible to your Bishop.
The higher ups have it forever.

611
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:52,760
It it's, it's, it's always on
there.

612
00:40:54,720 --> 00:41:02,280
And but, but the fact that he
did it twice shows a an

613
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:07,280
inequitable application of the
church standards and a an

614
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,600
absolute failure to comply with
the word of Jesus Christ on that

615
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,800
matter in Section 42.
Absolutely.

616
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,560
Church he we probably ought to
do what he says.

617
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:25,000
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I, I want to say this again,

618
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,800
right?
I think this boils down to

619
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,880
protecting the church at all
costs, right, 'cause certainly

620
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,120
we can say, OK, why didn't they
excommunicate Ronald Jones?

621
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,880
Well, he's pretty high up.
That's gonna, that's gonna make

622
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,840
some waves, right?
But if we go to that first

623
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,880
story, that's just a lame
member, right?

624
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,800
Why cover that up?
Because now, unlike the 90's,

625
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,400
the, the early 90s, 'cause
let's, let's remember, right?

626
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:00,640
Gosh, I hate having to do this
to myself.

627
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,680
The Internet doesn't really
become a thing till after about

628
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,680
1995, right?
We heard rumblings about it, but

629
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,760
it doesn't really start entering
people's homes till about the

630
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,960
mid 90s.
Back then, they could probably

631
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,560
keep it hush hush a little bit
more, right?

632
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,360
Honestly, if Jones doesn't
repeat, we're not having this

633
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,320
conversation because no one's
digging in his file.

634
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,280
And no one knows about it.
Nobody knows about it.

635
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:34,680
OK, with Paul Adams out there in
Arizona, the difference is the

636
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,840
Internet's a thing, right?
That's just in 2022.

637
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,000
Everybody knows.
And so now the church has to

638
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,560
really go to lengths to keep
this hush hush.

639
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,440
And one of the ways they do that
is by like, yeah, we're going to

640
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,400
handle this in house.
We're not going to farm it out.

641
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:58,800
So the church has been oddly
quiet except for one person who

642
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,880
thought they could they could
help make a difference.

643
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,160
And I want to play a video for
you here.

644
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,480
It's not long, but I think this
is going to really illustrate my

645
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,400
point here.
Taylor, for some reason, you

646
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:16,560
can't hear this.
Let me know.

647
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,480
OK.
I know this is going to sound

648
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,600
crazy, but when bishops are not
required to report SA, more

649
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,040
victims actually get help.
It sounds backwards.

650
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,760
You would think that more
mandatory reporting laws would

651
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,880
lead to more essay being
reported, but what actually

652
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,640
happens is that in states where
clergy are mandated reporters,

653
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,360
the system actually gets
overwhelmed with false reports.

654
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,080
Studies show that the total
number of reported cases does

655
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,000
often go up.
However, fewer legitimate essay

656
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,200
cases get through, and the real
victims get harder to find.

657
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:49,160
It turns out that when a
Bishop's office is 100%

658
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,320
confidential, victims and even
perpetrators are more likely to

659
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,160
open up.
And when they trust that that

660
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,960
conversation's safe, bishops
have a better chance of

661
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,800
persuading that person to self
report and get help before it's

662
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,600
too late.
I learned this at the Fair

663
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,120
Conference from a lawyer who
works directly on the church's

664
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,720
abuse cases and show that clergy
penitent privilege.

665
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,520
It's not about propping up
institutions.

666
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,600
It is always about protecting
children.

667
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,880
All right, Taylor, I want to get
your, your, your response to

668
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:23,240
that video.
Wow, isn't this such a a

669
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,360
deliciously floral scented pile
of steaming crap?

670
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,080
Like, isn't it just amazing?
It's, it's, it's, it's, you

671
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,280
know, appetizing it.
It's, it's, you know, just look

672
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,720
at the color schema.
I mean, isn't it amazing?

673
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:38,880
It it, it smells so wonderful,
doesn't it?

674
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,320
Oh, just beautiful, Just
beautiful.

675
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,240
I mean, what?
What else did you say to that?

676
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,280
Oh my goodness.
So I want to say I was pretty

677
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,000
shocked at this take, right?
And I want to say this normally

678
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,440
I kind of like her content,
right?

679
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,040
Normally, yeah, she's not too
bad.

680
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:09,200
But this like I'm going to ask a
question now and if someone

681
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,400
wants to answer me, that's fine.
If not, that's cool too.

682
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,480
But you taking some of that
sweet church cash there,

683
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,720
Jasmine?
I just got to know, I mean,

684
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:26,600
because look, my daughter, she's
a communications major and.

685
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:32,440
Well, Jasmine is a, is a, is a,
is a YouTube influencer.

686
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,240
So just in case you didn't know
who that was, she's the

687
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:41,520
influencer who is basically,
kind of like Jacob Hanson,

688
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,480
basically defenders of the LDS
church.

689
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,560
And generally their, their
content is good.

690
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,080
You know, they're basically
trying to provide context,

691
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,320
nuanced perspective and trying
to help people within and

692
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,720
without of the church reconcile
certain hard things.

693
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:02,520
Like I, I, I respect that.
I, I think there's value to it.

694
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:08,800
And but, but yeah, this, like
you say, this kind of reeks of,

695
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,280
wait, are you on payroll
Jasmine?

696
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,320
Because who thought that that
was a good take?

697
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:24,600
So now this is where it kind of
gets personal for me because of

698
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:29,240
the position I'm in here.
I figured out way early on,

699
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:34,800
Taylor, that the microphone
comes with certain

700
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,360
responsibilities, especially in
a religious sense, right?

701
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:45,360
If you're going to occupy these
spaces, understand that unless

702
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,280
you're just going to be there
for propaganda, you have a

703
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,760
responsibility to sometimes say
the uncomfortable crap, right?

704
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,280
You may not want to, but
nonetheless, that's part of the

705
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:01,160
responsibility.
Now, to Jasmine's credit, she's

706
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:05,320
the only prominent Mormon
influencer I know of that has

707
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,920
even addressed this.
So I'm just going to ask a

708
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:15,320
question.
What good are you if you're not

709
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:20,080
going to critique your own?
I've had to do that, and that

710
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,520
hurts.
I hate doing that, but if you're

711
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,480
not, if you're going to fall
down on this and you're just

712
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,520
going to be like, yeah, I don't
want to talk about that because

713
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:33,400
it sucks, Well, guess what?
You're falling down on your job.

714
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,640
I'm going.
Again, to Bonhoeffer, not to

715
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:43,120
speak is to speak, not to act is
to act.

716
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,240
God will not hold us blameless.
That's another.

717
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:48,080
I forgot that the first time I
quoted that.

718
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,640
You know, silence in the face of
evil is evil.

719
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,920
God will not hold you.
God will not hold you blameless.

720
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,800
And if you've been given this
gift in this platform, in this

721
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,280
voice and this opportunity,
there's come.

722
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,280
There is responsibility as part
of that.

723
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,840
And so, yeah, I, I, I it sucks.
I'm not pleasant.

724
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,960
This is a hard thing to come
face to face with.

725
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,680
And you know, we gave the I
guess the age warning, but I

726
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,120
just don't know what else to
call this situation.

727
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:26,480
And and I want to just I guess
one of the things that gave me

728
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:32,160
comfort as I was coming face to
face with reality, which is

729
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,960
basically as as more as excuse
me, Moroni puts it in ether

730
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,080
chapter 8.
He's he talks about awakening to

731
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,200
our awful situation.
When I first read that and it

732
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,720
and like I noticed it and I was
like, holy crap, I was looking,

733
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:48,000
I was applying it at a political
level and it was applied to my

734
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,200
nation because I had been, you
know, studying about certain

735
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,960
issues, which, you know, the
modern equivalent is like COVID

736
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,760
and all of that nonsense.
But you know, before that it was

737
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,200
like the Federal Reserve and all
of these, you know, different,

738
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:04,040
you know, secret combinations
that the the the Mormon, excuse

739
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,520
me, ether chapter 8 prophecies
would it's what caused the

740
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,480
overthrow of the Nephite
civilization, the Jaredites

741
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,640
civilization and would cause the
overthrow of the United States

742
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,440
of America.
He didn't name it by that name,

743
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:19,000
but but our day.
Well, what, what was shocking to

744
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:23,360
me is to come to the realization
that it was not only applicable

745
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:30,920
at a political level, that this,
you know, awful situation also

746
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,440
applied at a religious, you
know, church level,

747
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,080
ecclesiastical level.
And, and I just want to quote

748
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,640
from Mormon chapter 8, because
if this is prophesied in our own

749
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,520
scriptures and we just didn't
notice it, if for me, it gave

750
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:49,320
comfort to know that, OK, this
did not catch Heavenly Father

751
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:52,480
off guard.
He saw this coming.

752
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,480
He warns us and he accounts for
it in his perfect plan.

753
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:02,360
So what this is, is, is the Lord
is allowing for agency and he

754
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,280
will hold people responsibility,
but it's not going to frustrate

755
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,640
his purposes.
And and you know what's coming.

756
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:14,880
And so this is Mormon chapter 8
beginning in verse 31.

757
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,480
And he's talking about the
coming forth of the Book of

758
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,120
Mormon.
It shall come.

759
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,520
The Book of Mormon shall come
forth in a day when there shall

760
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,720
be great pollutions upon the
face of the earth.

761
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,520
There shall be murderers and
robbing and lying and deceiving

762
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,400
and whoredoms and all manner of
abominations, when there shall

763
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,840
be many who will say, do this or
do that, and it matter if not

764
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,840
for the Lord will uphold such at
the last state.

765
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,240
But woe unto such for their in
the gall of bitterness and in

766
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:41,520
the bonds of iniquity.
Now it's really easy, I guess

767
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:42,960
just one last thing to set this
up.

768
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,760
It's really easy to point the
finger external and say, yeah,

769
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,560
this is so true.
Like look how how wicked the

770
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,840
world is, but we're going to
keep going.

771
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,320
It shall come in a day when
there shall be churches build up

772
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,480
that shall say, come unto me and
for your money you shall be

773
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,000
forgiven of your sins.
And money could be currency as

774
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,960
far as like monetarily or it
could be, you know, social

775
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,400
currency, whatever that that
translates to.

776
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,560
Yeah, it should come in a day
when there shall be churches

777
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,760
built.
Oh, excuse me, Oh you wicked and

778
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,360
perverse stiff necked people,
why have you build up churches

779
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,440
under yourselves to get gain?
Why have you transfigured the

780
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,160
holy Word of God, that you might
bring damnation upon your souls?

781
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,760
Behold, look ye unto the
revelations of God, For behold,

782
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,520
the time cometh at that day when
all these things must be

783
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,080
fulfilled.
Behold, the Lord hath shown unto

784
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,160
me great marvelous things
concerning that which must

785
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,560
shortly come at that day when
these things shall come forth

786
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:40,000
among you.
Behold, I speak unto you as if

787
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,200
you were present, and yet you're
not, but behold, Jesus Christ

788
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:49,400
hath shown you unto me, and I
know you're doing so.

789
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:57,160
Moroni is breaking the 4th wall.
He is addressing the readers.

790
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:04,160
Now, if he's addressing the
readers, does that mean the

791
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:09,200
Catholics are Catholics reading
the Book of Mormon, are the

792
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:14,200
Baptists, are the Presbyterians,
are the Methodists, are the

793
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,480
evangelicals?
No, no.

794
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,640
Who is he addressing?
He's addressing perch of Jesus

795
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:27,840
Christ of Latter Day Saints and
all those who broke away from

796
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,880
that institution.
And he's, he's breaking the 4th

797
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,080
wall.
So if those, if that, if that

798
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,640
prequel wasn't enough, let's
keep going, shall we?

799
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:43,560
This is verse 36.
So again, more Moroni.

800
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,080
So it's in the Book of Mormon,
but Moroni is actually writing

801
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,680
this chapter.
So, but so Moroni is the the

802
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,840
author.
He just broke the 4th wall.

803
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,320
He is addressing you and me,
Dave and Jacob Hanson and

804
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:58,600
Jasmine Rappolai and everyone
else in the church and in and

805
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:02,200
and church adjacent.
I know that you do walk in the

806
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,840
pride of your hearts, and there
are none, save a few only, who

807
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,320
do not lift themselves up in the
pride of their hearts unto the

808
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:13,200
wearing of very fine apparel,
unto envying and striding malice

809
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,400
and persecutions and all manner
of iniquities in your churches.

810
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:20,200
Yeah, even everyone have become
polluted because of the pride of

811
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,440
your hearts.
For behold, you do love money

812
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,440
and your substance and your fine
apparel and the adorning of your

813
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,840
churches, whether you love the
poor and the needy, the sick and

814
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,640
the afflicted.
Now the poor and the needy, the

815
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,640
sick and the afflicted.
Does a 5 year old black haired

816
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:46,680
little girl qualify in Arizona?
Yes, that is exactly you know.

817
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,960
So this is not just talking
about financially poor.

818
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,920
These are people that are
vulnerable.

819
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:59,040
These are people who need
protection and help and we care

820
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:05,120
more about our money, our
substance, our our fine apparel

821
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,960
and adorning of our churches
than than than that child.

822
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,360
And it just breaks my heart.
Oh, you pollutions.

823
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,600
You do hypocrites.
You teachers who sell yourselves

824
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,040
for that which will canker.
Why have you polluted the holy

825
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:26,680
Church of God?
So if you're a Mormon, do you

826
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,240
think that the Catholic Catholic
Church is the holy Church of

827
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:33,080
God?
Do you think that the Baptist

828
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:34,800
Church is the holy Church of
God?

829
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,600
Do you think that any Protestant
or the like the the Islam is the

830
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,640
holy?
No, if you are a member of the

831
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,520
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints.

832
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:49,240
Inherent in that claim is an
assumption that your church is

833
00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:53,320
the holy Church of God.
If you're a fundamentalist and

834
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,400
your belonging to an any or an
institutional organization of

835
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,120
priesthood, the presumption is
that you believe that your

836
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,200
church is the holy Church of
God.

837
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:08,960
So nobody is exempt within the
world of Mormonism from this

838
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:14,120
condemnation, and it's not.
It goes beyond condemnation.

839
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,960
He calls us pollutions,
hypocrites, selling ourselves

840
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,960
for things that'll canker.
Why are we ashamed to take upon

841
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,680
us the name of Christ?
Why didn't we not think that

842
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,440
greater is the value of an
endless happiness than that

843
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,240
misery which never dies because
of the praise of the world?

844
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,880
I wanted to bring that phrase
out because, you know, one of

845
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:43,040
the most common excuses that I
hear for why the church has to,

846
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:48,360
you know, do this is to protect
the good name of the church.

847
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:55,760
OK Institutional reputation.
OK.

848
00:55:55,920 --> 00:56:00,640
Why do we care more about our
reputation than protecting A5

849
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:04,520
year old girl LDS?
Listen, vanity.

850
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:06,440
It's vanity.
It's pride.

851
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,520
Yeah, it's pride.
And I want you to ask, look in

852
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:14,280
the mirror.
And fundamentalists temptations

853
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,200
not just to the LDS church like
this applies to you and me every

854
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:23,920
nobody listening to this that is
in Mormon is exempt from this

855
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:30,240
rebuke and we've all got it
coming so going on.

856
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,120
Why do you adorn yourself?
Sorry about that brother.

857
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:34,560
I no.
You're good.

858
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,920
Power browned out again and
Internet dropped on me.

859
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,720
All right, go ahead and just
pick back up where you were,

860
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:42,800
Kayla.
All right, sorry.

861
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:47,720
OK, back to the verse 39.
Why do you, and I'm going to

862
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:53,520
apply this to me, why do I, why
do we as Mormons adorn ourselves

863
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,440
with that which hath no life,
and yet suffer the hungry and

864
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,400
the needy, the naked, the sick
and the afflicted, to pass by

865
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,120
you and notice them not?
Why do you build up your secret

866
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,160
abominations?
To get gain, and 'cause that

867
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,560
widows should mourn before the
Lord, and also orphans to mourn

868
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,440
before the Lord, and also the
blood of their fathers and their

869
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,120
husbands, To cry unto the Lord
from the ground for vengeance

870
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,920
upon your heads.
Behold, the sword of vengeance

871
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,040
hangeth over you, and the time
soon cometh that He avenges the

872
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,880
blood of the Saints upon you,
for He will not suffer their

873
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:34,280
cries any longer.
That out of Sting, because we

874
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:41,640
got it coming.
Dude 100% so there was something

875
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:45,400
that Thomas Jefferson said once
someone had asked him about the

876
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:55,600
slave question and Jefferson
said, well I when I stopped to

877
00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:00,960
think that the Lord is just, I
tremble with fear for my country

878
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,520
because unlike people, countries
and nations have to pay for

879
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:11,880
their sins in this life because
they don't have an afterlife.

880
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:21,640
There is a point and I'm going
to put this right on scripture

881
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,080
every time.
The Lord has had it with Israel

882
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,080
in the Old Testament.
Do you know when it revolves

883
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:32,600
around Taylor?
Children.

884
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,440
What's that?
Children, right?

885
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:37,320
Idolatry.
Christ Children.

886
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,440
Absolutely.
That's where the Lord gets mad.

887
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,520
Now, I'm not prophesying and I'm
certainly not making a call to

888
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:46,640
action.
Again, stay peaceful.

889
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:52,880
However, God will not be silent
on this issue forever, and He

890
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:58,120
will have His say at some point
and that needs to be front and

891
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,680
center as we deal with these
things.

892
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:06,600
And look, again, I want to say I
don't blame the LDS church

893
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:11,040
because a really bad guy made it
into the ranks.

894
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,480
That's been happening since the
dawn of time.

895
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:15,720
Joseph Smith wasn't immune to
it.

896
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,080
I don't expect the church to be
immune to it.

897
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:25,480
I do however expect the church
to act in accordance with its

898
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:31,360
professed beliefs or else white
sepulchers.

899
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,800
And that's really where I see
this as as having a hard issue

900
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:41,800
is.
And look, maybe I'm wrong, you

901
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,720
know, and feel free to push back
on me, but I can't see how this

902
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:50,480
can be anything other than a
cover up in, in both of these

903
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:55,680
cases to 1�� or another.
It's get it off the books so it

904
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:57,880
doesn't become an issue down the
road for us.

905
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,320
Am I wrong in that assessment?
I mean, does that sound off

906
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,280
base?
Am I missing something?

907
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,880
I don't see how else to spin it,
to be completely honest, because

908
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:18,520
it's not like anybody had a gun
held to their head.

909
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:24,320
You know, I look at the pressure
of Nazism and your life was at

910
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:28,800
stake if you opposed in that
situation, right?

911
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:38,800
Nobody's life's at stake here.
And and so I had, I have a hard

912
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:45,240
time allowing this to be
justified at any level simply

913
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:53,080
because you that you know right,
you know what's right and you

914
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,120
didn't do it.
You in fact did the opposite.

915
01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:00,600
OK, so.
No, you're 100% correct.

916
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,520
I didn't mean to cut you off.
What else were you going to say?

917
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,520
Oh, you're good.
You know, you brought up Thomas

918
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,400
Jefferson and you know, one of
my other heroes of, of that

919
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:14,520
generation is Patrick Henry.
And in his speech Give Me

920
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,800
liberty or give me death, like
that's the famous line from it.

921
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,360
But there's some Nuggets in
there and I'm I'm going to speak

922
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:24,240
this.
So he was one of the main

923
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,880
instigators.
He was a leader of the highest

924
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,000
order because you had a lot of
fear.

925
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:34,120
You had a lot of division.
You had a lot of people who were

926
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,080
like, no, we can't go against
the Crown.

927
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:37,920
We we're loyal subjects to the
Crown.

928
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:42,040
Like there was sincere loyals.
There was the fearful aside.

929
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:44,920
Well, if we, if we pick that
fight, we're going to lose.

930
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:48,200
You know, we can't handle, we
can't handle the British Navy.

931
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:55,480
So there's that.
But so anyway, he this is the

932
01:01:55,480 --> 01:02:00,040
climate he's faced with in his
in his day, and he says it is

933
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,720
natural to man to indulge in the
illusions of hope.

934
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,480
We are apartment to shut our
eyes against a painful truth,

935
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:11,360
and listen to the song of that
siren till she transforms us

936
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:14,760
into beasts.
Is this the part of wise men

937
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,360
engaged in a great and arduous
struggle for liberty?

938
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,280
Are we disposed to be of the
number of those who, having eyes

939
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:26,520
see not and having ears hear
not, the things which so nearly

940
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:28,320
concern their temporal
salvation?

941
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:32,360
For my part, whatever anguishes
spirit it may cost, I am willing

942
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:36,280
to know the whole truth, to know
the worst, and to provide for

943
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:40,480
it.
We have to fearlessly look in

944
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,280
the mirror.
We have to see things as God

945
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:47,800
sees them.
We got to knock it off with our

946
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,760
excuses.
We got to have a little faith,

947
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:55,720
exercise some faith and we got
to do the hard thing, as you

948
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:58,280
said, let the let the other nut
drop.

949
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:05,160
You know, for men, maybe women
too, we need to, we need to have

950
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:11,080
this fortitude, this conviction,
because if we don't, children

951
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:15,760
are suffering and that's all.
Absolutely.

952
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,600
Now there's one last thing I
want to show before we move on

953
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:23,520
here and and kind of address
another issue.

954
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,560
So let me share my screen with
you one more time.

955
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:31,680
And look, I want to say all
these are links are going to be

956
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:33,560
in the show notes.
So no one can say that I

957
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,760
doctored anything.
I am showing you the receipts

958
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:38,160
and the receipts are going to be
there.

959
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:46,840
This is a list of all the
bishops or state presidents, not

960
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:53,840
run-of-the-mill members, but
leadership that has been busted

961
01:03:55,240 --> 01:04:01,160
for child sexual assault at one
time or another.

962
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:08,640
OK.
George Aaron, James Adams.

963
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:23,240
Adams, Adams, Adamson, Allen.
I mean, there are literally.

964
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:27,080
Alphabetically.
Literally dozens and dozens.

965
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:31,200
And by the way, on some of
these, Taylor, if you look here,

966
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,160
you can see the church payout.
Settlements hush money?

967
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,720
Yep.
Hush money, that's exactly what

968
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,160
that is.
When the church makes this kind

969
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:45,880
of payment, it doesn't make it
in terms of gosh, we're sorry

970
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,120
this happened to you.
Let me dip into the vault where

971
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:53,480
we have more money than God
himself and let me give you some

972
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:57,280
of that for your suffering.
This is hush money because they

973
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,480
have to sign and and do not
disclose.

974
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:03,840
An NDA?
Yeah, a non disclosure

975
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:07,080
agreement.
You when you accept money, you

976
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:13,760
can't talk about it afterward.
Yep, Yep, $2,000,000.

977
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:19,640
I mean, it's obscene.
And at the top, so these are all

978
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:23,760
documented, undeniable, you know
things.

979
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:26,440
And it actually had the total,
you said dozens.

980
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:31,200
It's actually 374 on this page.
Holy cow.

981
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:32,720
See, I was.
I was.

982
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:39,960
Trying to be conservative there,
but never mind. 374 Now I, I

983
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:41,480
want to save something real
quick.

984
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,880
And this is not something I have
been kind of focused on for the

985
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:49,400
last several years.
But you know, maybe 7-8 years

986
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,480
ago when I was kind of into this
and, you know, processing my

987
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:55,080
whole betrayal trauma coming out
of the church.

988
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:01,440
I, there was a, a site at the
time it was called Mormon Leaks

989
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:06,680
and kind of like WikiLeaks, but
it's for Mormon, you know, LDS

990
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,040
abuse cover ups.
And, and in this Mormon leaks

991
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:17,960
site, there was a, a PDF that
had all of these, but it

992
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:22,720
actually had hundreds more.
And I couldn't find it as we

993
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:26,200
were prepping 'cause, you know,
I just found out about this

994
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,840
episode last night.
So forgive me for a little bit

995
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:30,640
of a lack of preparation kind.
Of.

996
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:39,040
No, you're good, you know, but
it was just something that I, I

997
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:42,920
was angry about.
I was, I was, I was livid,

998
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:49,000
pissed when I started seeing
things that my church that I

999
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:53,160
thought I could trust had been
involved in.

1000
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:58,840
And, you know, again, this is
not a personal thing.

1001
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:03,280
This is not like a personal
indictment because people fall

1002
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:05,120
short.
People are human, people are

1003
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,760
weak, people are fallible.
All of that holds.

1004
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:14,440
But what this is is an an
institutional indictment.

1005
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:19,520
And and so because this is
systemic, this is not just

1006
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:21,840
people fault failed to follow
the policy.

1007
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:28,240
This is the policy was designed
to harm children.

1008
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:31,320
Yep, and there's just no way
around that.

1009
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,800
And if you're an LDS member that
isn't outraged in this moment,

1010
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:39,240
shame on you.
You will answer to God.

1011
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:44,760
Absolutely.
Well, and look back to it's more

1012
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:46,920
pervasive than what any of us
might think.

1013
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:56,920
Just just last year, Bruce R
Mcconkey's grandson was

1014
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:02,000
potnusting like this David
Mcconkey.

1015
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:06,280
I'll post that story in the show
notes as well, out in Colorado

1016
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:08,520
Springs.
Hadn't heard about that but.

1017
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:11,800
It and and he was high up in the
church.

1018
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:15,720
He wasn't a 70 level, but he was
approaching that he had all the

1019
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:18,080
hallmarks of getting there had a
good job.

1020
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,600
Apparently you know by
appearance is a good family.

1021
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,640
He had the right last name.
Right, last name.

1022
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:28,040
I mean, he he fit the bill,
right.

1023
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:31,279
But nonetheless, this this
happened.

1024
01:08:31,279 --> 01:08:34,800
So this is far more pervasive
than any of us know.

1025
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:42,640
Now there's something else that
happens in these cases.

1026
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:47,880
Taylor that anyway, first,
before I go there, is there

1027
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:50,720
anything else you want to touch
on before we wrap up in this

1028
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:53,240
little section?
Because now I'm going to go

1029
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,960
after, after we're done here,
I'm going to go right to kind of

1030
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:58,240
the culture, Mormon culture a
little bit.

1031
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:00,720
Yeah.
No, this is Yeah, we're good.

1032
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:08,200
OK, so we would be remiss if we
didn't talk about the culture

1033
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:12,479
that sometimes blames the victim
in this.

1034
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:14,680
Oh yeah.
Oh.

1035
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:19,840
And I think it comes from two
places, right?

1036
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:24,520
And right now I'm going to turn
to Moroni Chapter 9, verse 9.

1037
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,840
And I want to say this, There is
nothing wrong with the

1038
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,680
Scripture.
What's wrong is the application

1039
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,240
of the Scripture, the
misapplication.

1040
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:38,560
Misapplication.
Thank you, and that's another

1041
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,319
reason I like having Taylor on
'cause he cleans up my verbiage.

1042
01:09:41,319 --> 01:09:43,720
Which they were socks.
Sorry, I didn't mean to not.

1043
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:46,720
No, I'm glad you did it, dude.
I'm glad you did.

1044
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:53,399
That wasn't me being sarcastic,
that was true #9 Moroni 9,

1045
01:09:53,399 --> 01:09:56,400
Chapter 9.
And here he starts off by

1046
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:58,920
saying, And notwithstanding this
great abomination of the

1047
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:03,520
Lamanites, it does not exceed
that of our own people and

1048
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:05,600
Moriantum.
For behold, many of the

1049
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:09,800
daughters of the Lamanites have
they taken prisoners, after

1050
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:13,800
depriving them of that which was
most dear and precious above all

1051
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,600
things, which is chastity and
virtue.

1052
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:20,880
And after they had done this
thing, they did murder them in

1053
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:23,960
the most cruel manner, torturing
their bodies even unto death.

1054
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:25,400
And we can just put it right
there.

1055
01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:30,960
I believe that Scripture was
misapplied for a long time.

1056
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:34,680
Why do I say that?
Because we have quotes from

1057
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:39,320
latter day St. leaders and when
I say leaders the top 15 that

1058
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:44,040
have said many times, even one
story by I think Kimball where

1059
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:47,960
he said I would rather my son
come home in a coffin than

1060
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:55,840
having sacrificed his virtue.
OK, so I can see where how they

1061
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:57,680
got there.
I don't understand it, but I

1062
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:02,240
guess I can see, right, chastity
and virtue, which is above all

1063
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:05,640
things, right?
And so I think, I think what we

1064
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:10,840
have here is, is, is an idea
from somebody who wasn't real

1065
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:15,960
good at parsing out verbiage and
parsing out meaning behind the

1066
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:20,560
scripture.
Now, do you want to comment on

1067
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:23,160
anything before I share
something else here on that?

1068
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:28,880
So, yeah, and, and, you know,
sadly, that's kind of a culture

1069
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,480
that I grew up with, too.
And, you know, and there was a

1070
01:11:32,480 --> 01:11:37,840
talk in the 80s or 90s that my
mom, or maybe it was my grandma,

1071
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:41,640
somebody in my family kind of
glommed onto, and it was Richard

1072
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:44,280
G Scott.
Don't play that here when you're

1073
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:45,440
done.
Oh, OK.

1074
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:48,760
Well, yeah, that that may be the
same exact clip that I I

1075
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:52,920
remembered.
And, and you know, I'm not

1076
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:59,520
saying that virtue and chastity
aren't precious like they are.

1077
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:03,600
They're, they're most, you know,
but it's not.

1078
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:09,600
But I do not believe in victim
blaming or victim shaming or

1079
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,560
this is precious because it's
our responsibility to safeguard

1080
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,280
it.
If you're a man and you have a

1081
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,840
woman that's responsible in your
life, it would be better for you

1082
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:24,840
to not come home or come home in
a coffin than to allow a woman

1083
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,480
in your care to be deprived of
that.

1084
01:12:28,480 --> 01:12:30,880
That I, that I can get behind
that statement.

1085
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:39,040
But what I can't get behind is
if my son had a moment of

1086
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:43,800
weakness with his girlfriend,
well, just just, you know, die,

1087
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:50,360
then I'd rather you just died.
That is not the principle that

1088
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:53,520
is being alluded to here in
Moroni Chapter 9.

1089
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:56,880
It's the other.
It's a responsibility.

1090
01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:59,000
Yeah.
You know, and, and I think as

1091
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,480
men, it is our responsibility
just in general to protect the

1092
01:13:02,480 --> 01:13:05,360
innocent, the women, the
children and.

1093
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:10,000
And so if we have a situation
where we are responsible and we

1094
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:16,200
fail to protect, it probably
would be better to to to, to

1095
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:18,320
defend, to not come home.
And that, you know, it would be

1096
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:20,320
redder.
It'd be better to give your life

1097
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:25,160
in defense of truth and virtue
than to come home and sacrifice

1098
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:27,600
those principles.
Absolutely.

1099
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:31,560
That's how I would apply that.
No, 100%.

1100
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:34,560
All right, I'm going to play
this Scott, this clip from

1101
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:36,560
Richard G Scott, because I think
it's important.

1102
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:39,960
And the reason I think it's
important is nothing happens

1103
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,360
inside of a vacuum tailor.
There's always cause and effect

1104
01:13:43,480 --> 01:13:48,360
everywhere and that's how we get
through to the present day, so I

1105
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:49,840
want to share this here real
quick.

1106
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:56,520
Ideas have consequences,
absolutely, and by their fruits

1107
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:58,480
he shall know them, whether
they're good or evil.

1108
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:02,400
Absolutely.
OK, now I can share.

1109
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,520
Sorry for the hang up there.
Thanks for covering me.

1110
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:13,360
All right.
Adversity, even when caused

1111
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:18,200
wilfully by others, unrestrained
appetite can be a source of

1112
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:22,160
growth when viewed from the
perspective of eternal

1113
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:26,680
principle.
The victim must do all in his or

1114
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:31,960
her power to stop the abuse.
Most often, the victim is

1115
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:36,560
innocent because of being
disabled by fear or the power or

1116
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:40,520
authority of the offender.
At some point in time, however,

1117
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:44,760
the Lord may prompt a victim to
recognize a degree of

1118
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:49,080
responsibility for abuse.
Your priesthood leader will help

1119
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:53,360
you assess your responsibility
so that, if needed, it can be

1120
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:57,120
addressed.
Otherwise, the seeds of guilt

1121
01:14:57,120 --> 01:14:59,520
will remain and sprout into
bitter fruit.

1122
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:04,960
Yet no matter what degree of
responsibility, from absolutely

1123
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:09,960
none to increasing consent, the
healing power of the Atonement

1124
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:13,040
of Jesus Christ can provide a
complete cure.

1125
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:18,800
Forgiveness can be obtained for
all involved in abuse.

1126
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:28,000
OK.
That did not age.

1127
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:32,760
Well, back to what I was saying.
You're right, that did not age

1128
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:38,000
well at all, right?
But nonetheless, it's important

1129
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:41,000
that we understand the soup at
which these ideas are springing

1130
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:44,640
from here.
OK, so for anybody who's a

1131
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:50,880
victim, it's not your fault.
It's not your fault, right?

1132
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:53,800
If you're a 5 year old girl, not
your fault.

1133
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:56,200
Nothing.
You could have done nothing.

1134
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:01,200
Sometimes you put you get
you're, you're in bad

1135
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:03,040
situations.
Maybe you put yourself in a bad

1136
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:05,120
situation.
Still not really your fault,

1137
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:09,000
right?
Default falls on the

1138
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:13,200
perpetrator, on this, and it has
to be called out as such.

1139
01:16:16,440 --> 01:16:21,640
Now, we've, we've just laid out
kind of a case here, right?

1140
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:25,360
And I think we've laid it out
pretty watertight.

1141
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:27,120
It's going to be hard to get
around these.

1142
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:34,320
So, Taylor, I want you to put
yourself in the shoes of an

1143
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:37,760
active LDS person.
If you choose to stay in the

1144
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,200
church, what do you do?
How do you fix this?

1145
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:49,240
So I don't have to imagine very
hard.

1146
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:52,720
I just have to remember because
this was where I was about 10

1147
01:16:52,720 --> 01:17:01,360
years ago, and I was basically
pleading with the Lord for

1148
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:09,920
guidance because I was aware I
and you can't, you can't unlearn

1149
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,880
things after you, after you've
heard them, after you've learned

1150
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,160
them.
Like you can't put that genie

1151
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:21,080
back in the bottle.
And so and so I was just ready

1152
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:27,440
to move on, right?
But the Lord basically told me

1153
01:17:27,440 --> 01:17:31,800
to stay for a time.
And now that sucked.

1154
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:35,360
I'll be completely honest,
because I knew that the church

1155
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:37,640
was out of order.
I knew that the church was

1156
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:44,400
guilty of terrible things.
And, and I think though, that

1157
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,400
sometimes the Lord might inspire
people to stay in the church for

1158
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:51,720
a little bit longer as a trial,
as the, and as, as basically a

1159
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:59,920
way for people to be witnesses
so that when the judgments do

1160
01:17:59,920 --> 01:18:04,280
come there, they're, you know,
it's, it's, it's justified.

1161
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:08,800
And, and sometimes you just, but
it's also, I think a trial in

1162
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:11,120
the sense of like, what are you
going to do?

1163
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:15,480
How are you, how are you going
to respond to this situation?

1164
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:21,880
And in that sense, just don't
fail.

1165
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:24,320
You got to call balls and
strikes.

1166
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:28,400
Do not let your loyalty to an
institution compromise your

1167
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:32,000
integrity.
Do not let your love for a

1168
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:36,080
church program or an individual
per you know, might even be your

1169
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:39,080
own family member, might even be
someone you care deeply about.

1170
01:18:39,400 --> 01:18:44,840
You can't allow that tie, that
earthly tie, that loyalty, that

1171
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:49,960
love.
Be a miss, be misplaced, and be

1172
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:58,680
at the expense of principles.
So in other words, shout from

1173
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:03,000
the rooftops within the
framework of the church meet,

1174
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:05,840
ask for an interview with your
Bishop, ask for an interview

1175
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:08,440
with your state president.
If your Bishop is not listening

1176
01:19:09,040 --> 01:19:16,760
or or regardless, this may cause
your days still in the church to

1177
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:21,440
be numbered.
Fair disclosure that you may not

1178
01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:25,080
last much longer if you if you
follow what I'm kind of

1179
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:29,040
prescribing, but you'll be able
to sleep at night.

1180
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:36,320
Yes.
So there's that and, and in my

1181
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:43,440
case, my exit from the church,
there's there was a lot of

1182
01:19:43,440 --> 01:19:46,200
things, you know, part of it
was, you know, my daughter want

1183
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:48,640
to get baptized in a stream and
the Bishop said, Nope, that's

1184
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:54,920
not allowed.
I said what you know, and, and,

1185
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:59,560
and you know, I was that guy
that was like, oh, you want to

1186
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,120
interview my 8, my 7:00, almost
8 year old daughter.

1187
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:05,360
I'm not leaving this room.
You can talk while I'm here.

1188
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:09,840
So I was that guy and he he
handled it pretty gracefully

1189
01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:12,920
overall.
He wasn't like disrespectful or,

1190
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:17,720
or anything like that, although
I think he was, it was, it made

1191
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:19,280
him, it felt, made him feel
awkward.

1192
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:23,800
I think that's not, I think
that's very fair to say, but.

1193
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:26,800
But I wasn't going to leave my
daughter alone in a room with a,

1194
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:30,280
you know, a grown man for, for
that time.

1195
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:33,760
So I'm in there and we get
through all the questions.

1196
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:39,440
Obviously my Angel is worthy of
baptism, you know, this little 7

1197
01:20:39,440 --> 01:20:43,800
year old girl.
But but I, I thought it was

1198
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:47,160
actually not necessarily all bad
because it gave an opportunity

1199
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:53,000
to discuss the standards of, you
know, conduct within a church

1200
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,480
membership aspect.
And so it wasn't all bad even.

1201
01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:01,400
And so we're going along and we
get to the end and I was like,

1202
01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:04,040
Hey, Bishop.
So by the way, my daughter wants

1203
01:21:04,040 --> 01:21:07,880
to get baptized in a stream.
She, she, you know, we have the

1204
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:09,400
living scriptures.
I don't know what gave her the

1205
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:11,360
idea.
Maybe she oh, well, I had been

1206
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:14,880
re baptized at that point.
So maybe she saw me get baptized

1207
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:18,520
in a stream and her mom.
And so she's like, I want that.

1208
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:22,040
I don't know.
I don't know every picture of

1209
01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:24,480
Jesus being baptized in the
River Jordan.

1210
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:27,280
How about that?
Yeah, there's, I don't think

1211
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:30,600
there's anybody that gets
baptized in a in a font in the

1212
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:32,400
Scriptures.
It's always a stream, right?

1213
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:35,080
So there is that.
But so she wants to get baptized

1214
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:36,760
in a stream.
And he's like, well, that's

1215
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:41,560
against the handbook.
And I was like, could you talk

1216
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:43,600
to the state president, maybe
get some permission?

1217
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:47,200
I don't know, like that seems
like dumb.

1218
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:51,440
Yeah, I, I, I didn't say this
out loud, of course, but but so

1219
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,000
he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I can
talk to sake president.

1220
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:57,320
So he goes and he's going to
talk to the sake president And,

1221
01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:04,080
well, meanwhile, the I had been
scheduled to go on a pioneer

1222
01:22:04,080 --> 01:22:06,280
trek.
I was kind of one of the music,

1223
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:11,400
you know, I was a music, I don't
know, committee member or, or

1224
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:13,040
member or something.
I don't, I don't remember

1225
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:16,920
exactly how it the structure was
working, but I was planning on

1226
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:19,400
taking and I was going to bring
my little kids because there was

1227
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:21,800
a few families that was going to
be involved with this pioneer

1228
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:22,960
trek.
Even though it was a youth

1229
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:27,960
program, like a youth trek, they
were inviting some families to

1230
01:22:28,440 --> 01:22:31,680
make it a little bit more
realistic and also so that I

1231
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:33,800
wouldn't have to leave my family
behind and, and just give people

1232
01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:36,440
more experience.
And I was stoked.

1233
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:40,040
I was so excited to do because I
loved my Pioneer Trek experience

1234
01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:42,880
when I was 17.
It was a beautiful experience.

1235
01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:47,840
And I, I, I was so excited to
share that experience with my

1236
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:55,680
kids.
So anyway, meanwhile, because

1237
01:22:55,680 --> 01:23:01,800
I'm that guy, I, I had, I had, I
had lived in this area for a

1238
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:05,120
while and when I first moved in,
I looked up the sex offender

1239
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:09,160
registry because frankly, if
you're a father and you have

1240
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:12,160
children and you didn't do that,
shame on you.

1241
01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:16,000
Repent now, like after you hang
up on this podcast, get on the

1242
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:18,720
Internet and do a local search
for the sex offender registry

1243
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:21,960
because you need to know who the
threats are in your

1244
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:24,720
neighborhood.
And so I, I had done that, you

1245
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:27,400
know, a couple years we had, we
had lived in this area for

1246
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:29,680
probably a couple years at this
point, maybe a year and a half.

1247
01:23:30,200 --> 01:23:32,920
And I knew that one of these
guys was on that list.

1248
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:36,320
And I hear that he's coming on
Pioneer Trek.

1249
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:43,320
And I was like, I was like, hey,
Bishop, are you aware of this,

1250
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:48,720
this person's, you know, past
And he's like, well, yeah, of

1251
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,840
course.
Like it was no big deal.

1252
01:23:52,480 --> 01:23:56,520
Well, and so, and also to to I
guess qualify.

1253
01:23:57,160 --> 01:24:04,440
I also pulled up the court
transcripts and read them and,

1254
01:24:04,480 --> 01:24:08,640
and this, this guy had a
stepdaughter that was aged 15

1255
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:14,600
and he groped her breasts and,
and admitted to it and on, on

1256
01:24:14,600 --> 01:24:18,320
the stand, pled guilty and
everything and was convicted.

1257
01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:23,240
So and, and there was other
things, but that was what he

1258
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:28,360
was, that was so undeniable.
It was a confessed, you know,

1259
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:32,720
thing like that.
That's what he got convicted of.

1260
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:35,440
And then there was other things
that got dismissed for

1261
01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:39,120
inadequate mess evidence.
But we know for a fact he did

1262
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:41,240
that.
But there was another sister

1263
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:43,840
involved anyway.
So rather than you know, I don't

1264
01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:45,760
want to get derailed on all the
the fine.

1265
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:50,240
No, you're good.
But so and so I was like,

1266
01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:56,880
Bishop, OK, you know how that
handbook that you're you're so

1267
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,560
married to that you're not going
to let my little 7 year old get

1268
01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:02,600
baptized in the stream?
What does it have to say about

1269
01:25:03,440 --> 01:25:08,600
about convicted pedophiles
holding callings related to the

1270
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:12,880
youth?
And this this little piece of

1271
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:17,320
you know what looked me in the
eye and said, well, he doesn't

1272
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:29,480
have a calling.
I'm like Bishop, OK, the letter

1273
01:25:29,480 --> 01:25:31,160
of the law is he can't have a
calling.

1274
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:34,680
What do you think the spirit of
that law is?

1275
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:42,760
And because he's coming on a OK,
so he doesn't have a calling in

1276
01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:47,040
Primary or young men's, young
women's, but he's going on A5

1277
01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:51,680
night, 6 day overnight camp out
with all of the youth in the

1278
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:55,240
ward and a bunch of Primary kids
in the Wyoming desert.

1279
01:25:57,240 --> 01:25:59,040
What could go wrong?
What could go wrong?

1280
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:04,240
And he was like, well, don't you
believe in the atonement,

1281
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:06,600
Brother Smith?
People can change.

1282
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:10,640
I was like, yes, I do believe in
the atonement.

1283
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:16,360
Yes, people can change.
But just because somebody

1284
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:20,600
overcomes alcoholism doesn't
mean they should go and hang out

1285
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:25,520
at the bar for a week.
You know, even if he has

1286
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:30,680
repented, that's just idiocy.
You are like, that is just

1287
01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:35,520
idiocy.
And, you know, we left, both of

1288
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:37,520
us left that interview very
unsatisfied.

1289
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:41,080
I'll just leave it that way.
We we were, that was.

1290
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:45,720
And so I call it the state.
You know, I'm just, I'm just

1291
01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:47,520
simmering about this for a
couple of days.

1292
01:26:47,520 --> 01:26:52,160
Like, what the heck, you know,
what do I do?

1293
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:57,640
Because I, I, at this point,
when I'm over the church, I'm

1294
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:00,160
ready.
I, I'm, I'm, if I could have, if

1295
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:02,640
I could have exposed this, I
would have.

1296
01:27:04,480 --> 01:27:07,560
But yet I'm, I'm feeling like
the Spirit wants me to stay.

1297
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:10,920
I'm like, OK, Heavenly Father,
what is your will?

1298
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:13,240
What would you want me to do in
this situation?

1299
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:16,320
And a couple of days later, the,
the inspiration, I'm praying

1300
01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:19,480
about this, pondering on it.
And the inspiration comes.

1301
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:21,680
You need to you need to call the
state president.

1302
01:27:22,480 --> 01:27:25,080
So I call it the state.
I call the clerk and schedule an

1303
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:28,080
interview with the president,
state president that later, you

1304
01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:33,800
know, that Sunday, the following
Sunday and you know, I'm ready

1305
01:27:33,800 --> 01:27:37,800
to just go and express my
concerns to the state president.

1306
01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:44,920
And I walk in to the state
president's office and the

1307
01:27:44,920 --> 01:27:50,120
Bishop sitting in the corner my.
Oh boy, oh boy.

1308
01:27:52,200 --> 01:27:58,920
And I recorded this, by the way,
you know, one party has to

1309
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:05,000
consent to a recording.
So I, I, I, I have them saved in

1310
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:07,520
my, in my files, these, these
interviews.

1311
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:12,720
And it just, it just blew me
away that the state president

1312
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:16,120
involved the Bishop who I was
coming to him to discuss

1313
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:19,560
concerns about like that.
Just that doesn't make any sense

1314
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:24,080
in my head.
Nevertheless, So we have this,

1315
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:28,880
we have this conversation.
And at the at the end of the

1316
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:32,200
day, the state president was
like, no, he's coming on Pioneer

1317
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:36,640
truck and you know, you need to
have more faith in the

1318
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:40,480
atonement.
And, and then as I'm walking out

1319
01:28:40,480 --> 01:28:42,680
the door, he's like, oh, and by
the way, your daughter's not

1320
01:28:42,680 --> 01:28:44,160
allowed to get baptized in the
stream.

1321
01:28:48,680 --> 01:28:52,720
Oh well, at least they put the
big problem to bed, right?

1322
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:58,680
I mean, you can't be tapping all
of them stream baptisms so.

1323
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:02,080
Anyway, and I this is how I left
the church.

1324
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:05,760
So I was, I had a sketch a a
trip to Hawaii with my family

1325
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:08,640
scheduled for, you know, like
that next week.

1326
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:14,760
So I walk out of that door and
I'm, I'm out of town for the

1327
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:17,440
next couple weeks and I'm
praying with my wife and me and

1328
01:29:17,440 --> 01:29:23,360
I feel like, and I've, I get, I
get the impression that these

1329
01:29:23,360 --> 01:29:30,760
individuals would be accountable
to God for these decisions.

1330
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:34,360
And the purpose for which God
inspired me to stay in the

1331
01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:39,280
church as long as he did was so
that I would be a witness to

1332
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:47,960
their to their decision.
And so that being said, I, the

1333
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:54,040
Lord released me from that job
of staying in the church in that

1334
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:57,880
moment.
And so I called it the Brit, the

1335
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:00,640
Bishop, and just informed him,
oh, hey, by the way, we won't be

1336
01:30:00,640 --> 01:30:01,960
coming to church with you guys
anymore.

1337
01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:03,720
We're independent Mormon
fundamentalists.

1338
01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:08,280
And he didn't know what to say
because instead of me being a

1339
01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:12,360
threat to his authority, now
he's conflicted because the LDS

1340
01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:15,440
culture is you need to reach out
and reactivate people that fall,

1341
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:18,360
fall away, you know?
And so it changed the whole

1342
01:30:18,360 --> 01:30:19,520
dynamic.
But it was awkward.

1343
01:30:21,240 --> 01:30:30,160
And like I say, these guys are
not evil in my mind, it I'm not

1344
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:33,240
comfortable labeling them as
evil.

1345
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:35,520
Right.
Do I think that they're

1346
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:38,840
accountable?
Hell yes, absolutely.

1347
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:44,320
I know who they are.
But but you know, I, I, I was

1348
01:30:44,320 --> 01:30:50,560
angry for a while, got to admit
I was a little pissed, but it

1349
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:55,480
was such a relief to to not have
to be part of that institution

1350
01:30:55,480 --> 01:30:58,480
any longer.
Because membership in the, in

1351
01:30:58,480 --> 01:31:02,120
the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints implies a

1352
01:31:02,160 --> 01:31:07,720
certain degree of endorsement
for the institutional systems

1353
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:09,560
and the actions of its
leadership.

1354
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:12,840
You know, and I'm a big believer
of voting with your feet if

1355
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:14,120
you're not down vote with your
feet.

1356
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:18,520
And so me being inspired to stay
in the church was kind of

1357
01:31:18,520 --> 01:31:21,640
painful for, for a while I was
ready to go, you know, when I

1358
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:24,280
first got a testimony, the
fullness of the gospel, and I

1359
01:31:24,280 --> 01:31:26,720
was like, OK, well, Heavenly
Father, where should I go to,

1360
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:30,160
you know, join the, the, the,
the real true church, you know,

1361
01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:35,040
and, and all that stuff.
And I'm so grateful that the

1362
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:39,840
Lord had that in his plan for me
because it made me who I am.

1363
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:42,360
It gave me perspective.
I would not have.

1364
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:45,120
It gave me experiences and
opportunities to serve that I

1365
01:31:45,120 --> 01:31:48,160
wouldn't have had if I'd left
the church when I first thought

1366
01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:52,960
it was time to leave the church
and gave me insight that way.

1367
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:59,480
But it, it was also, it was
inevitably that it was going to

1368
01:31:59,480 --> 01:32:02,480
happen at some point.
I couldn't stay in church

1369
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:07,880
forever.
And so, yeah, that's, I guess

1370
01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:09,160
that's all I have to say about
that.

1371
01:32:10,480 --> 01:32:14,600
You know, you are right and I, I
appreciate you saying it because

1372
01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:20,560
I was going to go here next.
I'm not going to tell people

1373
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:23,320
that you know what, your church
membership won't be affected by

1374
01:32:23,320 --> 01:32:27,120
you speaking out.
I know different, you know,

1375
01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:28,720
different from personal
experience.

1376
01:32:29,240 --> 01:32:33,040
So there's another story of a
gentleman named Sam Young who

1377
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:37,400
you you know who he is 0.
Yes, yeah.

1378
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:42,200
This is about 3-4 five years
ago. 20/18/2018.

1379
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:45,240
In that long seven.
OK, yes, I yeah, that was that

1380
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:47,080
was about the year that I left
the church.

1381
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:52,840
OK, Yeah.
OK, it's fascinating, right?

1382
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:58,040
Because look, his conclusions
about the gospel in general, I

1383
01:32:58,040 --> 01:33:01,240
think, if I remember correctly,
are different than mine, right?

1384
01:33:01,680 --> 01:33:05,520
Mine is a a more faithful
perspective.

1385
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:09,360
I guess Sam kind of went the
other direction if I'm not

1386
01:33:09,360 --> 01:33:11,280
mistaken.
If anyone knows otherwise, let

1387
01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:14,360
me know and I'll correct it.
No, he's, he's pretty bitter,

1388
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:16,360
Yeah.
Rightfully so.

1389
01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:21,040
So this was a guy.
This was a guy who was a Bishop

1390
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:23,520
in Texas, down in Houston if I'm
not mistaken.

1391
01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:27,120
And by all accounts, he was a
well loved Bishop.

1392
01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:31,000
And I could see why.
When I heard him talk, I was

1393
01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:33,360
like, yeah, that's a dude who
took it serious, who loved his

1394
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:39,600
people, right?
And he was having real struggles

1395
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,040
personally with having
interviews behind closed doors

1396
01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:46,120
with kids.
And he started to see the abuse

1397
01:33:46,120 --> 01:33:52,560
clear back in 2018.
So he starts talking to 1st his

1398
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:56,760
local leaders, runs it up to the
70s, runs it up all the way to

1399
01:33:56,760 --> 01:33:58,800
Salt Lake.
And Salt Lake is basically like,

1400
01:33:58,800 --> 01:34:02,400
sit down and shut up.
Just keep doing what we told you

1401
01:34:02,400 --> 01:34:08,200
to do.
Well, and This is why I love

1402
01:34:08,200 --> 01:34:12,800
Texans so much, because you tell
a Texan to sit down and shut up.

1403
01:34:14,160 --> 01:34:16,640
You might as well have just said
you were going to go take a leak

1404
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:19,120
on the Alamo because that dude's
going to war.

1405
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:24,600
And true to what he did, to who
he was, he went to war to such a

1406
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:28,040
point that he did organize.
He got real vocal.

1407
01:34:28,040 --> 01:34:30,080
He started making the podcast
circuits.

1408
01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:34,680
He started talking.
He even held a rally in front of

1409
01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:39,120
church headquarters to to bring
attention to this.

1410
01:34:39,400 --> 01:34:41,800
And you know what?
Good for him.

1411
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:46,000
I am no man's judge and thank
heaven for that.

1412
01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:51,840
But I will say this, despite
where he's at right now, the

1413
01:34:51,840 --> 01:34:54,880
Lord must surely be more well
pleased with a man who would

1414
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:58,600
stand on conviction and take the
bullet because he was

1415
01:34:58,600 --> 01:35:04,480
excommunicated then somebody who
cowered in the corner.

1416
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:11,560
Now there's another, I can't
remember what movie it was from,

1417
01:35:12,240 --> 01:35:13,960
but it was definitely a dude
movie, right?

1418
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:15,840
Kind of like Braveheart or
something like that.

1419
01:35:16,560 --> 01:35:21,720
And it's, it's, it's right
before a, a major, a major war

1420
01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:27,400
scene, right?
And somebody came and asked him,

1421
01:35:27,400 --> 01:35:29,000
are you scared?
And he's like, yeah, I'm scared.

1422
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:32,160
I'm scared.
He's like, then how do you stay

1423
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:37,480
so calm in these moments?
And he's an older guy, but he

1424
01:35:37,480 --> 01:35:39,800
looks at the younger guy and he
goes, sometimes there's things

1425
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:46,040
that are worse than death.
Look, in this scenario, there

1426
01:35:46,040 --> 01:35:51,400
are far worse things than to be
excommunicated.

1427
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:58,880
And sometimes you have to say,
damn the consequences, truth is

1428
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:03,680
going to cut, where it's going
to cut and where we'll go

1429
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:08,040
forward from there.
But nonetheless, there are,

1430
01:36:09,040 --> 01:36:12,800
there are eternal ramifications
for being quiet on this issue.

1431
01:36:14,480 --> 01:36:19,840
And I don't say that haphazardly
or in jest or lightly.

1432
01:36:20,480 --> 01:36:24,440
There are there are consequences
for for staying quiet on this

1433
01:36:24,440 --> 01:36:30,200
topic.
I would even take it a step

1434
01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:33,240
further.
And if you are endowed, you have

1435
01:36:33,240 --> 01:36:36,480
a covenantal obligation as a
man.

1436
01:36:36,480 --> 01:36:39,400
And I'm specifically speaking to
the men because the women, it's

1437
01:36:39,440 --> 01:36:40,760
it's it's a little bit
different.

1438
01:36:41,200 --> 01:36:48,000
But as a man, you are called to
wield a sword to defend what?

1439
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:51,160
Truth and virtue.
Yep.

1440
01:36:52,080 --> 01:36:57,040
So, yeah.
It, it that's that's that's

1441
01:36:57,040 --> 01:36:59,040
heavy.
You mean, you know, take that

1442
01:36:59,040 --> 01:37:00,800
very seriously.
I do.

1443
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:05,120
Absolutely.
And look, this cuts crossed all

1444
01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:09,000
religious lines too, right?
I want to say that if you're

1445
01:37:09,480 --> 01:37:13,440
ALDS person, if you're a Mormon
fundamentalist, if you are a

1446
01:37:13,440 --> 01:37:18,360
Catholic, if you are a Baptist,
a president, whatever, right?

1447
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:22,400
This should be one of those
universal principles we can all

1448
01:37:22,400 --> 01:37:24,000
kind of jump on board about,
right?

1449
01:37:24,480 --> 01:37:28,400
Clergy abuse is, is an issue and
it needs to be dealt with

1450
01:37:28,920 --> 01:37:35,000
immediately.
So there was one other place I

1451
01:37:35,000 --> 01:37:35,920
want to go here.
Why?

1452
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:40,680
Why We're wrapping up this
section and that's this.

1453
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:47,520
And I, I'm not going to be
careful.

1454
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:53,560
I'm just going to let it fly.
Another reason this gets this

1455
01:37:53,560 --> 01:38:03,800
can happen is because we have
left our our seats as parents

1456
01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:09,640
somewhat vacated at times.
And I understand I was there.

1457
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:11,400
I get it, right?
I get it.

1458
01:38:11,960 --> 01:38:16,560
I remember sending my son into
the Bishop's office and being

1459
01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:18,760
like, it's good, they're good
guys.

1460
01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:20,960
They got this right.
Like there's no reason to be

1461
01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:23,920
upset.
But here's what I'm going to say

1462
01:38:24,040 --> 01:38:27,440
in matters such as this, those
interview questions that you

1463
01:38:27,440 --> 01:38:32,000
went through, Taylor, that's a
that's a conversation that we

1464
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:34,200
had between a young man and his
father.

1465
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:41,520
It is not between another man
and your son.

1466
01:38:41,760 --> 01:38:44,040
That is your responsibility as a
father.

1467
01:38:44,360 --> 01:38:50,360
And it's your responsibility to
set those standards and to allow

1468
01:38:50,360 --> 01:38:52,240
that to be given to somebody
else.

1469
01:38:52,680 --> 01:38:59,280
You're playing with fire, right?
Because again, even, you know, I

1470
01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:02,600
want to acknowledge the vast
majority of bishops and the vast

1471
01:39:02,600 --> 01:39:04,600
majority of state presidents
aren't doing this.

1472
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:08,120
But it's enough that we should
raise an eyebrow, especially

1473
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:09,480
when we see the cover ups
happen.

1474
01:39:12,440 --> 01:39:15,040
But you can't fall down at this
job, right?

1475
01:39:15,320 --> 01:39:17,960
A Bishop wants to meet with your
kid, go with him.

1476
01:39:19,280 --> 01:39:21,840
Go with him.
The other thing I'm going to.

1477
01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:25,360
Say be that, be that guy who you
know who cares?

1478
01:39:26,440 --> 01:39:30,280
I, I would, I would so much
rather be that guy and my kids

1479
01:39:30,280 --> 01:39:36,400
safe than my kid become prey
because guess what?

1480
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:40,480
Guess who pedos.
You know predators always avoid

1481
01:39:41,440 --> 01:39:48,080
children with fathers that have
yes, grow up freaking pair.

1482
01:39:48,520 --> 01:39:51,920
That's your kid and you will
answer for their well-being

1483
01:39:51,920 --> 01:39:55,880
because that's your job.
So if you want to discourage

1484
01:39:55,880 --> 01:40:00,840
predators, be an active and
protective father and your kids.

1485
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:01,640
I'm.
Going to go a step.

1486
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:04,280
You can't.
You can't protect everybody's

1487
01:40:04,800 --> 01:40:06,800
but you.
You can protect everyone in your

1488
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:09,200
sphere, right?
Yep, Yep.

1489
01:40:10,440 --> 01:40:12,920
Boy, I'm going to say something
else here that that kind of goes

1490
01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:14,560
along with culture here a little
bit.

1491
01:40:16,360 --> 01:40:20,680
I say Amen to what Jordan
Peterson says on this topic.

1492
01:40:21,160 --> 01:40:26,600
As a man, as a husband and as a
father, you should be a bit

1493
01:40:26,600 --> 01:40:30,640
dangerous.
Oh yeah, I think Jordan Peterson

1494
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:33,160
says you should be a monster,
but you should have it under

1495
01:40:33,160 --> 01:40:37,560
control.
And there is nothing wrong with

1496
01:40:37,560 --> 01:40:40,400
showing a little color and some
backbone and chewing on some

1497
01:40:40,400 --> 01:40:43,840
steel and spitting it out when
these times call for it.

1498
01:40:44,960 --> 01:40:47,080
Frankly, maybe seduce.
Maybe you should do some

1499
01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:48,520
training.
Make sure that you're actually

1500
01:40:48,520 --> 01:40:51,600
capable of cashing the checks,
you know, because nobody's just

1501
01:40:51,600 --> 01:40:54,560
going to pay attention to hot
air if some, you know, to the

1502
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:57,960
lard, right?
Be dangerous because your

1503
01:40:57,960 --> 01:41:00,800
family's safety could depend on
that.

1504
01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:07,080
Yep dude there was a video that
of of a guy who'd molested like

1505
01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:11,400
hundreds of kids and they asked
this guy how'd you select your

1506
01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:15,360
victims?
Didn't matter about religion,

1507
01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:18,480
didn't matter about race.
It was all about the dad.

1508
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:23,800
If he perceived the dad as a
threat, he stayed away.

1509
01:41:24,920 --> 01:41:26,720
Period.
That was the deterrent.

1510
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:33,640
Yep.
And so I know, look, I know the

1511
01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:37,960
church right now is in a place
where and you only have to go

1512
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:40,720
back to the most recent fair
conference where they

1513
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:44,000
essentially want to emasculate
men.

1514
01:41:48,240 --> 01:41:55,800
You're right, Jesus was loving,
Jesus was kind, Jesus was

1515
01:41:55,800 --> 01:42:00,200
compassionate.
But let's not forget he also

1516
01:42:00,200 --> 01:42:02,160
turned over the tables and
picked up a whip.

1517
01:42:05,280 --> 01:42:08,880
He was the man he had to be in
that moment.

1518
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:13,960
And likewise, weak men are not
what the Savior's after.

1519
01:42:14,160 --> 01:42:15,960
And I don't care who's saying
the message.

1520
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:20,440
As priesthood holders, we need
to do our duty.

1521
01:42:20,440 --> 01:42:23,520
And part of our duty as men is
protecting our families from all

1522
01:42:23,520 --> 01:42:27,440
hazards at all costs.
And that's what we have to do.

1523
01:42:30,080 --> 01:42:37,600
There's, there's one last place
I want to go here that goes

1524
01:42:37,600 --> 01:42:41,240
along with this idea that that
part of the reason we have this

1525
01:42:41,240 --> 01:42:46,560
environment now is because we
have farmed our responsibility

1526
01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:56,160
to others in these regards.
Likewise, the LDS Church has

1527
01:42:56,160 --> 01:42:59,480
farmed out a portion of the
responsibility of the bishops.

1528
01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:09,000
And quite frankly, this is what
happens when you replace the

1529
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:13,840
Holy Scriptures with the
Handbook of Instructions and you

1530
01:43:13,840 --> 01:43:16,240
replace the Holy Ghost with
Curtin Mcconkey.

1531
01:43:17,160 --> 01:43:20,080
Well, talking about transfigured
the holy word of God, I was

1532
01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:22,560
reading that from Mormon 8
earlier, yeah.

1533
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:28,080
Yep, Yep, this is what happens
when you substitute scriptures

1534
01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:31,880
for a handbook and the Holy
Ghost for legal counsel.

1535
01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:35,760
Because look, I'll tell you how
the case in Arizona should have

1536
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:38,400
went down.
That dude should have said to

1537
01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:42,680
his Bishop, I've been molesting
my dog now.

1538
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:44,640
Taylor here.
Not too long ago, if I'm not

1539
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:51,520
mistaken, the LDS church either
surpassed or is really close to

1540
01:43:51,520 --> 01:43:53,920
the amount of wealth that the
Catholic Church does.

1541
01:43:56,200 --> 01:43:58,520
OK, I.
I can't speak to that, the

1542
01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:02,440
comparison, but it's in the
hundreds of billions of of

1543
01:44:02,440 --> 01:44:05,200
liquid assets and and and hard
assets.

1544
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:07,480
That's just the stuff they're
not hiding.

1545
01:44:10,400 --> 01:44:15,320
So how that should have went
down is he should have went in,

1546
01:44:16,520 --> 01:44:20,800
his Bishop would have found out
by him confessing, hey, I'm

1547
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:25,240
molesting my daughters.
And then the Bishop saying, hold

1548
01:44:25,240 --> 01:44:27,880
on one second, let's get your
wife in here.

1549
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:31,720
You get the mom in there and
then you look.

1550
01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:39,400
The Bishop has access to vast
resources, not just cash, but

1551
01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:42,240
the ability to find housing at a
moment's notice.

1552
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:44,680
I was a ward clerk.
I understand it.

1553
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:48,080
I was the financial clerk.
I helped sign the checks.

1554
01:44:48,120 --> 01:44:51,640
I get it.
He's got access to food.

1555
01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:55,240
He's got access to medical,
psychological care.

1556
01:44:56,160 --> 01:45:01,040
It is astounding the amount of
resources at the LDS Church has

1557
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:07,120
at its disposal to minister to
those who have been hurt and

1558
01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:09,280
wounded.
And what should have happened is

1559
01:45:09,280 --> 01:45:12,800
he should have got the wife in
there and been like, we're going

1560
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:16,840
to get you another house right
now and you're going to take the

1561
01:45:16,840 --> 01:45:18,120
kids.
Yep.

1562
01:45:18,800 --> 01:45:20,600
And you're going to go stay at
that house.

1563
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:23,920
And then he was going to should
have looked at that guy and

1564
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:27,680
went, we're going to have the
quickest excommunication.

1565
01:45:27,960 --> 01:45:29,520
Sit, sit down.
You're not leaving this room

1566
01:45:29,520 --> 01:45:32,040
until the cops get here.
Exactly.

1567
01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:35,440
And next Wednesday I'm calling a
council, a disciplinary council.

1568
01:45:36,560 --> 01:45:39,000
And then you should have led
with that, right?

1569
01:45:39,240 --> 01:45:43,280
Like for for the sake of the
kids, I would say, don't you

1570
01:45:43,280 --> 01:45:44,880
know, you didn't need to call
the media.

1571
01:45:45,720 --> 01:45:51,760
But if they'd have done just
that, Taylor, just that that low

1572
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:58,520
bar, get the mom and the kids to
safety, get the dad out of the

1573
01:45:58,520 --> 01:46:04,760
house, get him, call the
authorities, then deal with all

1574
01:46:04,760 --> 01:46:07,000
the ecclesiastical stuff after
that.

1575
01:46:08,080 --> 01:46:12,320
That's a win.
That's a win that is God's

1576
01:46:12,320 --> 01:46:20,400
organization doing good work in
the face of very hard trials to

1577
01:46:20,400 --> 01:46:24,760
do the right thing.
And I contend that had the

1578
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:28,320
church not said yeah, don't ever
make a decision, just call the

1579
01:46:28,320 --> 01:46:32,040
helpline and check the the
manual, the handbook of

1580
01:46:32,040 --> 01:46:37,640
instructions, that Bishop being
a doctor most likely would have

1581
01:46:37,640 --> 01:46:44,800
done just what we laid out.
Yeah, and I want to, I want to

1582
01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:48,560
clarify one thing.
Dave and I are not saying that

1583
01:46:48,560 --> 01:46:53,600
the church is responsible for
the abuse, that the abusers are

1584
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:57,040
responsible for the abuse.
And I do not believe that the

1585
01:46:57,040 --> 01:47:02,080
church produces pedophiles at
any greater, you know, frequency

1586
01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:04,600
or rate than it.
In fact, I, I would guess it's

1587
01:47:04,600 --> 01:47:06,000
average, maybe even a little
below.

1588
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:10,280
I don't know.
But what I, what we are

1589
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:15,560
adamantly and unapologetically
stating is that the church is

1590
01:47:15,640 --> 01:47:20,720
absolutely responsible for its
response or lack of response to

1591
01:47:20,760 --> 01:47:23,080
these situations.
So it's not the church's fault

1592
01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:29,000
that people are sick and evil,
but it is absolutely responsible

1593
01:47:29,000 --> 01:47:33,080
for how it handles it.
And I want to just close maybe

1594
01:47:33,080 --> 01:47:36,400
with a couple of verses.
So this is from James chapter

1595
01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:42,600
one, verse 27 in New Testament,
pure religion and undefiled

1596
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:47,480
before God and the Father is
this to visit the fathers and

1597
01:47:47,480 --> 01:47:50,280
widows in their affliction and
to keep himself unspotted from

1598
01:47:50,280 --> 01:47:54,240
the world.
You look at the whole system of

1599
01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:58,320
marriage and family law in the
Mosaic Law, and you look at all

1600
01:47:58,320 --> 01:48:01,680
throughout the scriptures.
What there there's one common

1601
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:06,800
thread that is very consistent
Old Testament, New Testament,

1602
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:10,040
Book of Mormon, Doctrine
Covenants, the whole scriptures.

1603
01:48:10,440 --> 01:48:16,520
Frankly, everything in creation
attests to Heavenly Father cares

1604
01:48:16,560 --> 01:48:22,080
a great deal about women and
children and he's not trifle

1605
01:48:22,640 --> 01:48:26,760
with men who abuse or fail them
in their hour of need.

1606
01:48:27,480 --> 01:48:32,320
You know, the whole Masonic
covenants and like oaths and

1607
01:48:32,320 --> 01:48:35,200
like the prayers.
It's all about the women, the

1608
01:48:35,200 --> 01:48:37,600
widows and the, the, the
children.

1609
01:48:37,600 --> 01:48:41,480
I, I think that's probably one
of the things that Joseph Smith

1610
01:48:41,480 --> 01:48:45,200
was so impressed with as he was,
you know, accomplishing the

1611
01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:49,440
restoration and, and saw the,
the goodness that was left, even

1612
01:48:49,440 --> 01:48:51,880
though it was apostate, the
goodness it was left in Masonry.

1613
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:56,120
And again, as as far as our
brothers and sisters that are

1614
01:48:56,120 --> 01:48:58,560
still part of the LDS church.
I mean, technically I'm still a

1615
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:01,280
member of record.
I, I haven't like felt a need to

1616
01:49:01,320 --> 01:49:05,080
remove my records and they
haven't excommunicated me, but

1617
01:49:05,080 --> 01:49:08,000
I've just been, I've
disassociated myself and I, I

1618
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:14,040
have been not active for the
last 7 1/2 years I guess now

1619
01:49:15,800 --> 01:49:18,760
and, and but so so I want to
read.

1620
01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:23,160
This is from Mark Chapter 9 and
I'm quoting from the Joseph

1621
01:49:23,160 --> 01:49:26,960
Smith translation, also known as
the inspired version because he

1622
01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:31,840
adds certain things that are not
in the original King James that

1623
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:36,560
make this very germane or
applicable to this exact

1624
01:49:36,560 --> 01:49:40,440
situation.
Therefore, if I hand offended,

1625
01:49:40,440 --> 01:49:43,560
he cut it off.
Or this is added by Job.

1626
01:49:43,800 --> 01:49:47,320
If I'd rather offend thee and
confess not and forsake not, he

1627
01:49:47,320 --> 01:49:51,400
shall be cut off.
It is better for thee to enter

1628
01:49:51,400 --> 01:49:53,960
into life maimed than having two
hands to go into hell.

1629
01:49:53,960 --> 01:49:56,440
And this is analogy of, you
know, this is not literal.

1630
01:49:56,440 --> 01:49:59,280
This is all metaphorical, but
this is about the body of

1631
01:49:59,280 --> 01:50:01,520
Christ.
In other words, the church, if a

1632
01:50:01,520 --> 01:50:07,480
brother gives offense and does
not confess or forsake, he has

1633
01:50:07,480 --> 01:50:10,840
removed him.
He has, he has forfeited his

1634
01:50:10,840 --> 01:50:13,840
right to be part of the body of
Christ, and he should be

1635
01:50:14,120 --> 01:50:20,480
excised, OK.
For it is better to enter in,

1636
01:50:20,760 --> 01:50:23,040
For it is better for thee to
enter into life without thy

1637
01:50:23,040 --> 01:50:26,440
brother than for thee and thy
brother to be cast into hell.

1638
01:50:28,160 --> 01:50:29,760
And this is, I think, talking
about you.

1639
01:50:29,760 --> 01:50:33,960
We there's an individual
responsibility to do the right

1640
01:50:33,960 --> 01:50:36,480
thing, do what is right, let the
consequence follow.

1641
01:50:36,600 --> 01:50:39,760
And so that Bishop, yes, he got
bad legal advice.

1642
01:50:39,760 --> 01:50:42,920
Yes, he, he was following bad
advice.

1643
01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:50,360
And so you could say that to a
degree he's not as culpable for

1644
01:50:50,400 --> 01:50:53,560
the abuse.
But I think that these verses

1645
01:50:53,800 --> 01:50:57,960
give every individual that's
involved personal, you know,

1646
01:50:57,960 --> 01:51:00,560
skin in the game.
There you you do have personal

1647
01:51:00,560 --> 01:51:05,920
responsibility.
And and again, OK, so that was

1648
01:51:05,920 --> 01:51:07,880
the first 2 verses.
There's a couple more.

1649
01:51:08,240 --> 01:51:11,960
And again, if thy foot offend
thee, cut it off for he that is

1650
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:13,760
thy standard by whom thou
walkest.

1651
01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:16,840
If he become a transgressor, he
shall be cut off.

1652
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:22,360
So now who is the standard, you
know, in the in the church

1653
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:27,240
context, in the body of Christ
for he that is thy standard by

1654
01:51:27,240 --> 01:51:31,520
whom thou walkest.
That's that seems to be more

1655
01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:33,120
than just a lay member type
level.

1656
01:51:33,320 --> 01:51:36,120
That seems to be more like a a
leadership role, right.

1657
01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:40,360
And I'm not, I'm not
specifically pointing out, you

1658
01:51:40,360 --> 01:51:44,160
know, Bishop or, but it it
certainly seems that there isn't

1659
01:51:44,160 --> 01:51:46,200
a higher degree of
responsibility.

1660
01:51:46,440 --> 01:51:48,400
If you are placed in the
position of trust and

1661
01:51:48,400 --> 01:51:51,400
leadership.
It is better for you to enter

1662
01:51:51,400 --> 01:51:54,960
halt into life than having 2
feet to be cast into hell, into

1663
01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:56,600
the fire that never shall be
quenched.

1664
01:51:57,760 --> 01:52:01,920
Therefore, this is verse 44.
And this is all added by Joseph

1665
01:52:02,440 --> 01:52:04,240
44 and 45.
It's all italics.

1666
01:52:04,240 --> 01:52:08,560
So this is not in the original.
Therefore, let every man stand

1667
01:52:08,560 --> 01:52:14,520
or fall by himself and not for
another or not trusting another.

1668
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:18,920
OK, so again, this is Kurt
Mcconkey.

1669
01:52:19,320 --> 01:52:22,920
Yes, that it does.
Is Kurt Mcconkey culpable and

1670
01:52:22,920 --> 01:52:25,240
responsible?
Has some responsibility, yes,

1671
01:52:26,120 --> 01:52:31,600
but that does not absolve a
Bishop or any leader, you know

1672
01:52:31,600 --> 01:52:34,480
person of leadership or or
somebody that becomes aware of

1673
01:52:34,480 --> 01:52:38,680
these types of things happening.
You are still responsible

1674
01:52:39,560 --> 01:52:43,120
because every man stand or fall
by himself and not for another.

1675
01:52:43,360 --> 01:52:45,840
We're not trusting another.
Seek unto my Father, and it

1676
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:47,280
shall be done in that very
moment.

1677
01:52:47,280 --> 01:52:49,880
When what you shall ask, if you
ask in faith, believing that you

1678
01:52:49,880 --> 01:52:53,040
shall receive.
And this is the concluding 3

1679
01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:55,280
verses.
If you didn't get the memo in

1680
01:52:55,280 --> 01:52:58,000
those those first 5 verses,
listen up.

1681
01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:05,720
If thine eye which seeth for
thee hymn that is appointed to

1682
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:10,480
watch over thee, to show the
light, become a transgressor and

1683
01:53:10,480 --> 01:53:16,240
offend thee, pluck him out.
Most of that was added in the

1684
01:53:16,240 --> 01:53:19,280
Joseph Smith translation, the
inspired version.

1685
01:53:20,200 --> 01:53:24,200
So it is better for thee to
enter so so eyes who in the

1686
01:53:24,200 --> 01:53:31,560
Church is appointed to see?
Would it not be the seers, the

1687
01:53:31,560 --> 01:53:33,680
seers you know, the the in the
leadership.

1688
01:53:33,680 --> 01:53:38,080
This goes so in other words, the
highest levels are not exempted

1689
01:53:38,360 --> 01:53:43,800
from this teaching of the Savior
as as elucidated by Joseph.

1690
01:53:44,400 --> 01:53:47,760
So thine eye which seeth for the
that is appointed to watch over

1691
01:53:47,760 --> 01:53:50,840
thee, to show the light, become
a transgressor, and offended,

1692
01:53:50,840 --> 01:53:52,880
pluck him out.
For it is better for you to

1693
01:53:52,880 --> 01:53:55,360
enter into the Kingdom of God
with one eye than having two

1694
01:53:55,360 --> 01:53:58,120
eyes to be cast into Hellfire.
For it is better.

1695
01:53:58,240 --> 01:54:02,120
OK, And this is also italics.
For it is better that thyself

1696
01:54:02,120 --> 01:54:06,520
should be saved than to be cast
into hell with thy brother.

1697
01:54:07,160 --> 01:54:09,120
Where they're wormed I hath not,
and where the fire is not

1698
01:54:09,120 --> 01:54:13,600
clenched.
This impresses mightily upon me

1699
01:54:14,120 --> 01:54:18,320
of individual personal
responsibility and

1700
01:54:18,320 --> 01:54:22,200
accountability.
You can't get around it, and

1701
01:54:22,280 --> 01:54:26,080
it's scary to contemplate.
But you're not alone.

1702
01:54:26,120 --> 01:54:29,080
You're not the first.
You know, I'm not saying that

1703
01:54:29,080 --> 01:54:33,120
Dave and I are anything special.
But we feel, yeah, we've been

1704
01:54:33,120 --> 01:54:35,400
there.
And it's it's OK.

1705
01:54:35,400 --> 01:54:40,640
And it's so much better to do
the right thing and suffer

1706
01:54:41,080 --> 01:54:43,640
consequences, even persecution,
as a result.

1707
01:54:44,520 --> 01:54:50,720
So much better to do that than
to fail and answer to his father

1708
01:54:51,080 --> 01:54:53,800
for your failure.
Absolutely.

1709
01:54:54,120 --> 01:54:58,120
Amen.
You know, just in conclusion, I

1710
01:54:58,120 --> 01:55:00,680
want to go back to what I said.
I believe in the atonement.

1711
01:55:00,680 --> 01:55:03,880
In atonement, I believe that
people can be healed, they can

1712
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:09,840
be changed.
I also believe that you don't

1713
01:55:09,840 --> 01:55:13,520
take a drug addict and throw
them into the back alleys of

1714
01:55:13,520 --> 01:55:18,480
some Brooklyn area to be tempted
by heroin either, right?

1715
01:55:20,440 --> 01:55:25,960
To your point there about Trek,
Taylor and you gather enough

1716
01:55:25,960 --> 01:55:28,640
people, Taylor and and I loved
what you said there.

1717
01:55:29,400 --> 01:55:33,320
I don't think the church
produces pedophiles, right?

1718
01:55:33,720 --> 01:55:38,800
I just think it's the world that
we live in right now those those

1719
01:55:38,800 --> 01:55:43,400
months, you know, the that kind
of stuff is out there and you

1720
01:55:43,400 --> 01:55:47,640
have to be cognizant of it.
But anytime you gather that many

1721
01:55:47,640 --> 01:55:50,560
people together, I don't care
who you are, I want to reiterate

1722
01:55:50,560 --> 01:55:52,480
this.
Someone's going to slip through.

1723
01:55:53,720 --> 01:56:00,960
And when bad things happen, it's
far worse to not acknowledge it

1724
01:56:00,960 --> 01:56:06,520
and hide it than it is just to
own it and come, come forward

1725
01:56:06,520 --> 01:56:11,080
and do the right thing.
Get the family that needs help,

1726
01:56:11,080 --> 01:56:15,360
help get the perpetrator away
from the victim.

1727
01:56:17,040 --> 01:56:21,200
That's not going to say it's
easy.

1728
01:56:21,200 --> 01:56:23,960
It's simple, but I understand
it's not easy.

1729
01:56:24,560 --> 01:56:28,160
But we're not asked.
We're not asked to do easy

1730
01:56:28,160 --> 01:56:31,640
things.
None of us were promised, Oh,

1731
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:34,200
this is going to be such a
cakewalk for you down there.

1732
01:56:34,440 --> 01:56:36,800
Just go down there and you're
just going to go through the

1733
01:56:36,800 --> 01:56:39,840
motions.
No, we were promised hard things

1734
01:56:40,040 --> 01:56:43,520
and that was for our benefit and
the benefit of our brethren and

1735
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:47,080
our sisters.
But we have to get back to doing

1736
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:49,920
the hard thing, no matter what
that is.

1737
01:56:50,520 --> 01:56:55,960
And in this case, it is getting
the offender away from the

1738
01:56:55,960 --> 01:56:59,320
victim and hopefully get the
offender the help they need and

1739
01:56:59,320 --> 01:57:00,880
maybe you can have a happy
outcome.

1740
01:57:00,880 --> 01:57:05,200
They're getting the victims
first and foremost out of

1741
01:57:05,200 --> 01:57:08,360
danger.
And again, the church has

1742
01:57:08,360 --> 01:57:14,320
massive resources.
I don't, OK, I wasn't going to

1743
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:15,680
share this, but I'm going to
share this anyway.

1744
01:57:19,760 --> 01:57:21,840
I got to be real careful on how
I say this.

1745
01:57:22,560 --> 01:57:28,320
When, when, when I was a war
clerk, there was a case of abuse

1746
01:57:28,320 --> 01:57:30,640
that happened.
Thankfully, it wasn't this kind

1747
01:57:30,640 --> 01:57:33,360
of abuse, but it was abuse
nonetheless.

1748
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:37,720
This lady goes in, She talks to
the Bishop.

1749
01:57:37,760 --> 01:57:40,680
Now, this is on a off night.
This is like a Thursday night,

1750
01:57:40,680 --> 01:57:42,720
right?
And I was living in a pretty

1751
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:45,800
rural location, and so there
wasn't a lot happening at the

1752
01:57:45,800 --> 01:57:48,000
church.
And I got a call from the Bishop

1753
01:57:48,000 --> 01:57:51,320
at like darn near midnight,
right?

1754
01:57:51,880 --> 01:57:55,960
And look, for those who've never
been LDS, there is no worse

1755
01:57:55,960 --> 01:57:58,120
feeling than seeing your Bishop
call you at midnight.

1756
01:57:58,480 --> 01:58:01,320
I don't care who you are, that
is not going to go the way you

1757
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:04,160
want no matter what.
But he called me and he said,

1758
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:06,200
Brother Sanders, I need you to
come in here and I need you to

1759
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:10,160
print me some checks.
And I was like right now.

1760
01:58:10,160 --> 01:58:14,680
And he's like, right now I was
like, yes, Sir.

1761
01:58:15,320 --> 01:58:18,520
I was like, let me get, you
know, this was back in my LDS

1762
01:58:18,520 --> 01:58:19,800
day.
So I'm like, let me get a tie

1763
01:58:19,800 --> 01:58:23,320
and a shirt on.
He's like, come in your pajamas,

1764
01:58:25,480 --> 01:58:27,360
right?
So I'm like, you asked for it,

1765
01:58:27,360 --> 01:58:30,680
bro.
And so I jumped in my truck and

1766
01:58:30,680 --> 01:58:35,800
I drove down and he had this
woman in his office with these

1767
01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:37,880
three little kids.
They weren't normal members of

1768
01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:39,800
the ward.
I'd seen him around a few times,

1769
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:43,480
but I mean, it was a large
amount.

1770
01:58:43,480 --> 01:58:46,840
By the time it was all done, it
was a food order for them to go

1771
01:58:46,840 --> 01:58:51,960
and get food that they needed.
It was a stay at an extended

1772
01:58:51,960 --> 01:59:00,480
stay for up to a month.
It was, it was a recommendation

1773
01:59:00,480 --> 01:59:04,600
to seek counseling like this
Bishop, for, for, for everything

1774
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:10,560
I said, I do want to give kudos
to the guys who do it right and

1775
01:59:10,560 --> 01:59:13,280
'cause he did it right.
He did exactly those things I

1776
01:59:13,280 --> 01:59:18,760
talked about and he took care of
that woman and her children in

1777
01:59:18,760 --> 01:59:22,880
that moment.
And I remember I asked him, I

1778
01:59:22,880 --> 01:59:24,880
was like, you can do that this
fast.

1779
01:59:24,880 --> 01:59:28,200
And he's like, well, they don't
recommend it, but sometimes

1780
01:59:28,200 --> 01:59:30,240
there's rules and sometimes
there's guidelines.

1781
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:35,320
And he's like, we did what we
had to do to do good tonight.

1782
01:59:35,440 --> 01:59:39,440
Go home and sleep now, right?
That dude's a stud.

1783
01:59:39,680 --> 01:59:43,600
And that dude, I'll admit to
this day, I hope if I'm ever in

1784
01:59:43,600 --> 01:59:47,280
that position, I can respond in
much the same way because he did

1785
01:59:47,280 --> 01:59:51,560
it right.
But you got to own it first and

1786
01:59:51,560 --> 01:59:53,800
you got to be willing to do the
hard things.

1787
01:59:55,760 --> 01:59:59,680
But if in fundamentalism, we
have some things that we need to

1788
01:59:59,680 --> 02:00:04,760
recoup from, right, Warren Jeffs
is no longer an issue for us.

1789
02:00:05,880 --> 02:00:08,560
But I promise you somewhere this
is still going on.

1790
02:00:09,760 --> 02:00:18,840
And it's incumbent upon us that
if we want to be, if we want to

1791
02:00:18,840 --> 02:00:22,640
come out of the shadows, we have
to purge this from ourselves

1792
02:00:24,720 --> 02:00:26,920
and.
We have to do it.

1793
02:00:26,920 --> 02:00:29,840
We can't.
We can't afford to lay back on

1794
02:00:29,840 --> 02:00:33,000
our morals.
And again, to be fair, I'm not

1795
02:00:33,000 --> 02:00:36,600
just picking on the LDS church.
This is a problem across

1796
02:00:36,600 --> 02:00:40,640
religion, across peoples of all
sorts and all stripes.

1797
02:00:41,120 --> 02:00:43,880
But doing the right thing is not
negotiable.

1798
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,640
It's the lowest bar that we have
and we have to clear it.

1799
02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:49,960
So I'm just going to end it
there.

1800
02:00:49,960 --> 02:00:52,200
Taylor, is there anything else
you want to say to wrap up here?

1801
02:00:52,760 --> 02:00:55,920
Yeah, I guess maybe just a
couple more thoughts because I'm

1802
02:00:55,920 --> 02:01:00,200
just thinking back on, you know,
we read the scriptures of Mark,

1803
02:01:00,200 --> 02:01:01,800
Chapter 9, Joseph Smith
translation.

1804
02:01:01,880 --> 02:01:06,120
But to just kind of expound on
them for a moment, how do you

1805
02:01:06,120 --> 02:01:08,920
apply this to yourself if you're
a member of the LDS Church

1806
02:01:08,920 --> 02:01:12,440
listening to this episode, you
know, if you're in a position of

1807
02:01:12,440 --> 02:01:15,200
leadership?
Dave just gave us a really good

1808
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:21,160
kind of, you know, poster child
that's be that guy, be like that

1809
02:01:21,160 --> 02:01:25,560
guy stand in the gap when people
are counting on you and in their

1810
02:01:25,560 --> 02:01:27,560
hour of need.
If but you.

1811
02:01:27,680 --> 02:01:31,960
But many people probably aren't
in a position of leadership or

1812
02:01:31,960 --> 02:01:35,560
in any position to be, you know,
to to have access to church

1813
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:38,480
funds or any of those things.
And so So what do you do?

1814
02:01:39,000 --> 02:01:45,240
And I I would just say so we
talked about sustaining our

1815
02:01:45,240 --> 02:01:47,920
leaders and that's a big deal in
Mormonism, right?

1816
02:01:47,920 --> 02:01:52,280
You got to sustain your leaders
and but, but, but there's been

1817
02:01:52,320 --> 02:01:54,480
come the speaking go back to the
culture.

1818
02:01:54,680 --> 02:01:59,240
Sustaining in the days of Joseph
Smith is not what sustaining is

1819
02:01:59,240 --> 02:02:01,680
in the modern LDS church.
Like sustaining in the modern

1820
02:02:01,680 --> 02:02:07,760
LDS church is a mere formality
where you know, if and and

1821
02:02:07,760 --> 02:02:11,520
frankly, if you don't, then you
got to get with the program

1822
02:02:11,600 --> 02:02:13,480
because you're not supporting.
You're not.

1823
02:02:13,760 --> 02:02:17,200
You know, if if you don't, if
you vote against a leader, that

1824
02:02:17,200 --> 02:02:18,960
doesn't necessarily mean
anything's going to happen to

1825
02:02:18,960 --> 02:02:21,760
the leader, unless it's like
something criminal or, you know,

1826
02:02:21,840 --> 02:02:27,760
super serious that the but, but,
you know, generally general

1827
02:02:27,760 --> 02:02:29,600
authorities don't choose the
wrong leaders.

1828
02:02:30,040 --> 02:02:33,200
And so if you're voting against,
that's more on you than them,

1829
02:02:33,240 --> 02:02:39,320
right?
And so, but in, in the days of

1830
02:02:39,320 --> 02:02:42,240
Joseph Smith sustaining was
actually a vote.

1831
02:02:42,240 --> 02:02:44,960
It was like democracy.
You know, you vote for your, you

1832
02:02:44,960 --> 02:02:46,320
vote for your candidate for
president.

1833
02:02:46,320 --> 02:02:49,760
You're, you're, you know,
somebody in office, then then

1834
02:02:50,160 --> 02:02:52,520
you know, and if you vote
against them, they count the

1835
02:02:52,520 --> 02:02:54,400
votes.
And if there's more for or

1836
02:02:54,400 --> 02:02:57,080
versus more against, then
whoever has the most votes,

1837
02:02:57,240 --> 02:03:00,920
that's how the decision goes.
And, you know, to to illustrate

1838
02:03:00,920 --> 02:03:03,200
and to kind of prove that point,
there was times Joseph Smith

1839
02:03:03,200 --> 02:03:07,800
himself proposed certain things
like he wanted to release Sidney

1840
02:03:07,800 --> 02:03:12,320
Rigdon and William Law from the
as counselors in the First

1841
02:03:12,320 --> 02:03:15,000
Presidency of the whole church,
the priesthood that, you know,

1842
02:03:15,000 --> 02:03:18,240
First Presidency and the church
voted against him.

1843
02:03:19,800 --> 02:03:25,520
And, you know, he he sustained
the decision of the people,

1844
02:03:26,720 --> 02:03:30,960
right.
And and so Brigham Young also

1845
02:03:30,960 --> 02:03:38,080
had certain statements where he
said, if I am wrong as a leader,

1846
02:03:38,080 --> 02:03:43,000
I'm counting on the membership
to be able to show me where I'm

1847
02:03:43,000 --> 02:03:49,120
wrong because I could be wrong.
He's acknowledging that, you

1848
02:03:49,120 --> 02:03:51,480
know, the possibility that he is
human.

1849
02:03:52,000 --> 02:03:55,520
And, you know, sadly, that's not
something that's really kind of

1850
02:03:55,560 --> 02:03:57,600
acknowledged.
But within the church nowadays,

1851
02:03:57,600 --> 02:04:00,240
it's more like, you know, if
you're voting against a

1852
02:04:00,240 --> 02:04:03,320
proposal, like it is proposed
that we, you know, brother so

1853
02:04:03,320 --> 02:04:05,680
and so be sustained as the blah,
blah, blah.

1854
02:04:05,680 --> 02:04:11,240
And if you vote no against that,
then it's a you problem, not a

1855
02:04:11,400 --> 02:04:13,440
not a church or the brother so
and so problem.

1856
02:04:14,400 --> 02:04:18,600
But what you can do is you can
sustain your brethren and your

1857
02:04:18,600 --> 02:04:23,800
leaders in doing God's will, not
in doing their will.

1858
02:04:24,640 --> 02:04:27,800
And that could be awkward.
And like, you know, as as was

1859
02:04:27,800 --> 02:04:34,000
mentioned earlier, it you can't
control what others do, but you

1860
02:04:34,000 --> 02:04:39,160
can control what you do.
And that is a lesson that

1861
02:04:39,160 --> 02:04:40,480
there's the serenity prayer,
right?

1862
02:04:40,480 --> 02:04:41,840
That whole, that little thing
that.

1863
02:04:41,840 --> 02:04:42,400
Yeah.
Right.

1864
02:04:42,840 --> 02:04:46,400
Grandmas have God give us the
serenity or the the courage to

1865
02:04:46,760 --> 02:04:52,400
change the things I can, the
serenity to accept the things I

1866
02:04:52,400 --> 02:04:55,560
can't and the wisdom to know the
difference, right?

1867
02:04:56,480 --> 02:05:01,680
And I think that that that is so
understand that there is a

1868
02:05:01,680 --> 02:05:04,520
personal responsibility aspect
to all of this.

1869
02:05:05,040 --> 02:05:11,000
And so may we take
responsibility, embrace the

1870
02:05:11,000 --> 02:05:13,920
responsibility that Heavenly
Father has entrusted to us.

1871
02:05:14,440 --> 02:05:19,640
And you know, if if there's
things that there's abuse and

1872
02:05:19,640 --> 02:05:22,440
your leaders aren't responding,
hold them accountable.

1873
02:05:22,480 --> 02:05:28,360
By doing so, you, you're truly
sustaining them, not form in a

1874
02:05:28,360 --> 02:05:32,600
formality sense sustaining them.
And it may.

1875
02:05:33,280 --> 02:05:36,280
There may be consequences, you
may lose your membership or who

1876
02:05:36,280 --> 02:05:40,640
knows what, right?
But it's worth it.

1877
02:05:41,960 --> 02:05:52,080
Yep 100% dude good stuff.
I know that one was tough but I

1878
02:05:52,080 --> 02:05:55,520
felt like it had to be sad.
I don't think we could ignore

1879
02:05:55,520 --> 02:05:57,160
it.
I didn't feel right about just

1880
02:05:57,160 --> 02:05:59,600
ignoring it.
I wanted to, but I didn't feel

1881
02:05:59,600 --> 02:06:01,960
right about it.
So dude, I appreciate you

1882
02:06:01,960 --> 02:06:03,440
trudging through this stuff with
me.

1883
02:06:04,720 --> 02:06:06,040
You bet.
Next time, let's talk about

1884
02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:11,160
something inspiring.
Yeah, let's talk about something

1885
02:06:11,160 --> 02:06:12,720
deeper.
Yeah, a little more, a little

1886
02:06:12,720 --> 02:06:14,600
more doctrine and a little less
this.

1887
02:06:14,600 --> 02:06:17,640
So I agree.
All right, dude, hang out for

1888
02:06:17,640 --> 02:06:19,720
just 5 minutes, talk to everyone
later.

1889
02:06:19,840 --> 02:06:52,320
Bye.
You're listening to the Mormon

1890
02:06:52,320 --> 02:06:53,760
Renegade podcast.