Episode #193: The Doctrine Of Christ W/Elior Walker

0:26 The. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Eleor, what's going on, big guy? Hey brother, hope you're doing well my man. So we're going to talk about the doctrine of Christ, right? Yes, Sir. But not like the freaky doctrine of Christ. Who? Those folks who deny polygamy, right? No. And my my whole mission is to take the doctrine of Christ back. So it's in the hands of true blue orthodox Mormons. Yes, as as it should be. And this brings up another point, which is why does all the worst crap always have the word most innocuous sounding names ever, right?

1:17 Like it's never like that. Well, that's my theory on, on hurricanes, why people get caught in hurricanes. You can't name them like Edna, right 'cause that sounds like, hey, Edna's coming great, fire up the BBQ. I love that Edna, right. No, you need to name that thing like, I don't know, hurricane your mother-in-law or something like that. Something that really just inspires fear and, and, and, and just nightmarish sort of scenarios that would get people moving. Yeah, like why don't they name it like John D Rockefeller or something? You know what I mean? Right, right. Or for us, like Hurricane Heber J Grant, it's like, Oh no, grab the truth, hide it.

1:59 Heber's. Coming. Exactly, bro. We don't. He's going to reform this hurricane or he's going to reform this town if we don't get out of the way. Exactly. Exactly. So I think that may be the earliest I've ever bagged on Hebrew J Grant in a podcast. I didn't make it a full 5 minutes so. Well, I it's an honor, I guess. Right, right, right. It's a record. It's a record. You know, I, when I came into orthodox Mormonism, I'm not going to use the F word. When I came into orthodox Mormonism, I had a lot of anger toward Heberger Grant, which like, why? You know, that's not special at all.

2:39 That's everybody and their dog. But I, I do feel compassion now. He lost his dad, who was a total stud when he was really young and he was like mentored by Godby, William Godby. So it's, I mean, what, what if, what if he, what if we had lost our father that young and been mentored by William Godby? I mean. Godby's nuts, especially when you start looking at like his spiritual practices. Yeah. You're just kind of like, like that dude may have nothing on Faust. You know the devil's bargain, right? Like he may have. He may have sealed the deal. Yeah, he may have made his calling election.

3:20 Sure. In the wrong direction. Oh, that's awful. Yeah. Yeah, I get you there. God be is just one. It's crazy how Hebrew J Grant belongs to a chain of very bad movers and shakers, you know, powers that shouldn't be. You have God be, God be above Heber, and then Robert Owen is an influence on God be, and then Madame Blavatsky as an influence on Robert Owen. It's just like this nightmare chain of dude, The devil knew what he was doing putting those pieces there, you know? Dude 100% and and folks like Blavatsky if you start looking at like World War 2 or pre World War 2 Germany, the the fuel society was a big mover and shaker based off a lot of the practices of guys like Godby Blavatsky, those sorts of things.

4:19 Like it is a dark, dark cauldron of just the most unsavory characters, both from a human perspective as well as a spiritual one. Yeah, I guess you, you can't be too surprised then that that would that would come into the church. You know that that line of thought, that legacy, right? Yeah. I'm sure I'm going to have to do an episode on those times at some point, right? That would. Be amazing. One, one of my big contentions is that Nazism just wasn't a a political ideology. It was a religion, right. There was a great book wrote by oh, I'm blanking on his name now, but it was called Hitler's monsters. The guy's a, a Yale, a Yale historian, right? Not exactly a guy that you would paint as like a right winger by any stretch of the imagination, right. But even he after he looked at it was like, oh, this might be bad.

5:20 Another good one to read if you want to know about the spiritual side of movements is again wrote by a guy who was from the Ivy League called the Devil and Karl Marx, which talks about the influence of of, you know, a a Satan type character, the destroyer on on Karl Marx. And he has some very interesting things to show there. I mean, it really paints, paints a different picture of of both of those movements. So not only was not only was Marks being bankrolled by the usual suspects, but he was talking to the demons. Now, is that what you're telling me? Dude, it gets spookier than that.

6:01 So they're his favorite play. Was Faust OK, the devil's bargain. The other thing is, is that he wrote several plays and the main theme is selling your soul to the devil. And there is, See if this sounds familiar to you, there's a quote that he gives where he says I will stride to cross this land and it will now be my world. And from the chaos that I have caused, I will now bring forth order. Oh, like the right pattern. But in the hands of pure evil, that's awesome.

6:42 Yeah, dude, wrestling. We're going to touch on wrestling chaos in order today and that but but every time it's like the inverted satanic version. That's just creepy vibes right there, you know? Oh, yeah, dude. Oh, yeah. No, it, it is for sure. Like those two books. I'm not that there's three that really, like made me like stay up at night looking at the ceiling, those two. And then there was another book by Annie Jacobson called Nuclear War. And like, I was like, oh, oh, this is horrible. So anyway, folks, there's there's your, there's, there's the Mormon Renegade Book Club for you. I'm not exactly going to make you the life of parties, but you'll you'll have a newfound understanding of some of these movements.

7:26 So all right, on to other things. Well, on to the Yeah, this is the solution to everything we just talked about right here. And I do need to say you'd had a discussion with Justin Frankem, episode 179 of your podcast, part nine of the Temple series. And I want to say we're going to be touching on some similar themes, but I'm going to be coming at it from a different angle. And the way I I do, I have just a few slides for this presentation or for this discussion I mean. Let me let me change my permissions here for you. Cool. I did not want it to be a presentation. I wanted to be discussion, but near the middle I'll I'll be intermittently sharing some slides. But so I just want to say everybody, whether you're listening or watching, you should check out Justin's episode.

8:21 It's episode 179, part 9 of the Temple series. Really good stuff. And, and I'm, I'm coming at it, like I said, from a different angle and the way I map some things onto the temple diagram is a little bit different, but he's been studying this stuff like 15 years longer than me. So, you know, it'd be, it'd be well worth, it'd be well worth your time to check that out. One more preface. I'm going to be dabbling in the pretentious world of philosophical jargon. And when I use a philosophical term, I'm going to explain what it means. And the only reason I'm using them is so if the listener or the viewer wants to go dive into some stuff later, they'll know.

9:06 They'll know what some things mean. And I, I wish we could just speak plainly and not pretend to be intellectuals, but you know, it is what it is. For the audience, that's what you call being nice to the audience. Because really, or let me rephrase that, that's what's called being nice to the host. Because right there, what Elior did as he said, oh, this is for the audience. But he looks at me and he knows darn well I'm not going to get any of those. So I appreciate the the effort there. But well, I'll if I have questions, I'll ask you. Sounds good brother. I you're a smart cookie. That ain't true, but OK. So the the doctrine of Christ is the focal point of this discussion.

9:49 It is. I will die on this hill. I've been given a testimony of this. The doctrine of Christ is the most fundamental doctrine of the Restoration and of Mormonism. Without the doctrine of Christ, plural marriage, celestial marriage, and consecration mean nothing. We aren't, we have not lived the doctrine of Christ because had we, we would already have Zion in the Kingdom of God. The doctrine of Christ is what creates a Zion people. So and it's very inward focus. There's a lot of outward ritual that is meant to teach sort of this inward process of becoming. And so I will we, we Mormons will never build Zion unless we learn to live the doctrine of Christ. So my prayer right now is that the hearts of the listeners and viewers are softened because some of this stuff is kind of heavy.

10:44 So I pray that they're softened so they're able to receive some of this stuff because for some reason, simple gospel truth is hard to understand sometimes because we have hard hearts. So that's my prayer right now. I pray that I can speak with the tongue of angels and the Lord can do the rest by His grace. But there's some doctrinal prerequisites to the doctrine of Christ, and that is first and foremost the everlasting covenant. And that leads into the doctrines of fall and atonement, naturally. And those two doctrines lead into the doctrine of Christ. So we're going to touch on the everlasting covenant 1st and then fall in atonement, and finally the doctrine of Christ.

11:29 So without further ado, I'm finally going to get this ball rolling, But OK. So I'm going to be reading from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 190. He says the everlasting covenant was made between 3 personages before the organization of this earth and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth. These personages, according to Abraham's record, are called God the First, the Creator, God the second the Redeemer, and God the third the witness or testator. So this right here is kind of the foundation of our entire religion, of the religion God revealed to Adam that has been passed down through the millennia and restored and whatnot.

12:16 And and so we learned that three personages, the Father, the Son of the Holy Ghost are in a covenant or, or share a covenant. And here's me and you, me and you spent time in the church. What do they usually, how do they usually define a covenant? Do you remember? Really it's it's an agreement between you and God. It's a two way promise, right? Yep. Well, I'm sorry to say, but that is utterly insufficient because when all we view a covenant as is a two way promise, it's just a transactional means to an end, meaning we're OK, I'm going to make this promise with God so I can get something from it.

12:59 It's it's sort of, it's sort of entails A scarcity mindset and it's very utilitarian. We're using God as a means. It's a two way promise. So if I do this, you do that, I get what I want. The truth is that covenants are not the vehicle, but the covenant itself is the blessing from which all other blessings flow. Covenants are the end and the end in and of themselves. And so covenants are not a two way promise. They're a relationship. You've heard, I'm sure everybody's heard the term a covenant relationship. That's really what that is. So covenant relationships are interpersonal. They are, like I said, an end in and of themselves, not a means to an end.

13:44 We want to enter into covenant relationship with God because we want Him and we want to give ourselves completely to him. And the the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost in this covenant relationship share what is called an I, thou relationship I and thou I and you in, in, in Philosopher Martin Buber coined this phrase and he has a whole book on it called I Am Now. And it's one of the most beautiful gospel truths I've ever come across in my entire life. And in fact, when you think about it, the entire gospel is about perfecting relationships, relationship for eternity.

14:25 Relationships are at the heart of the gospel. Then think about every commandment. It's about how we relate to God and others, making sure we're treating others right and treating God right, treating ourselves right. But so in in and I thou relationship or in in the I thou relationship of the Godhead, they freely give themselves completely to one another and they give each other space to reveal themselves to each other in every moment of time. So they're like treating each other as an endless revelation because that's what we are. We are Co creators. We ourselves are an endless revelation. And in this covenant relationship they share, they are eternally gaining experiential knowledge in a fullness of loving unity.

15:17 I'm sure we're familiar with like the Brigham Young and Orson Pratt quotes stating how God is eternally progressing, You know, so God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are they? They share this knowledge and they're gaining experiential knowledge together for eternity. They're so they are omniscient. They know everything that is possible to know, but they're always having new experiences. And so every time you have a new experience, you gain experiential knowledge, right? And then then what's possible to know is even greater because you're constantly having more experiences you. Know as, as you were just talking there about this covenantal relationship and about revealing yourself fully to God and God revealing himself to you. It makes a lot more sense on why that that imagery of marriage is used so much, especially in the Old and New Testaments, right? Of Christ as the bra as the bridegroom and the church as the bride, right?

16:20 And I think, I think there's a lot of similarities there with with the marriage covenant as well. I think men need to listen up right now and trust me, I I just want to say like, we are the bride, you know? And I know that's hard for a man to hear. We don't want to see ourselves that way. But that's the relationship. Exactly what you said. That's what God desires with us. In fact, in the New Testament, Paul likens receiving the Spirit of God to the seed of God being planted in US. You know what I mean? So yeah, I totally agree with you. Marriage is modeled after the relationship God wants with us, like you just basically said. See, I love that you.

17:03 I love that you brought that up because I won't be talking about marriage in this one. So I'm glad you brought that up because there is a lot of marriage imagery in the Scriptures, as you know. So I just want to cite Abraham 322 through 26 to sort of prove that, you know, knowledge and glory can be gained for eternity through experience. So it says they who keep their first estate shall be added upon and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads forever and ever. And then Brigham Young says in Journal of Discourses one 350 the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children. They will increase to all eternity if they are faithful. And another thing I want to say about this covenant relationship that the Father, Son, the Holy Ghost share, you know, we don't know.

18:03 There's different views on how long they've been in this covenant relationship. Because if you believe in the infinite regress of gods like most Mormons do, like our God had a God, then his God had a God, then his God had a God. If you believe in that, then it would seem that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost haven't necessarily been in their relationship for all eternity. But either way, it seems that they've been in this relationship for a very long time. And DNC 2028 says which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal without end. Amen. And eternally eternity, you know, can travel forwards and backwards. So just wanted to say that they've been in this relationship for a long time.

18:49 So. So are you, Are you a believer in that regressive model of the gods? OK, so there's two there's two major models. There's the infinite regress model and that's supported by the King. A the plainest interpretation of the King fall at this course and Sermon in the Grove by Joseph Smith. Then there is the monarchical monotheism model, also called. You can call it henotheism or monolatry is. That the one Blake is that the one Blake Oster subscribes to? 100% because it is what every standard work teaches and it's what Joseph Smith teaches and tell the sermon in the Grove. And so I'm actually completely agnostic. I could go either way on that one. OK.

19:34 Personally. But this this this will work with both models. Yeah, 100%. OK. In fact, that's kind of why I had to throw that caveat in there about I don't know how long they've been in that relationship, but they've probably been in it for a long time. And they're they're fully glorified together, even though the spirit doesn't have a body or, you know, we're not. You know, some people think Joseph Smith is a spirit. I'm. I'm fine with that. But yeah, I'm, I Depending on your theory, there may be some differences, but this this discussion will work with either one for the most part. OK. Perfect. Yeah. I should have known you were schooled on that. Should have known you do about Blake Osler.

20:18 I listen to a few things from now, now and again. Well, I'm this first section is heavily influenced by Blake Osler, so I'm glad you reminded me. I want to give credit where credit is due. Everybody who is a true scholar of Mormon theology, whether whether you know, I don't disagree with everything Blake Osler says, but everybody needs to either read or listen to Blake Auster's Exploring Mormon Thought series. So. Be told I found out about it last night on a podcast so I kid you not yeah, we I was talking I was talking to another guy and his will be released this Saturday. You'll come after him and this came up. Wow.

21:01 Well Blake Osler has absolutely changed my life. He rejects Adam, God, and there's some other things I don't agree with, but 85% of what he says is absolute solid gold and it has completely changed my life. Learning how to think about the gospel very rigorously while still, while still maintaining room for plenty of revelation and spontaneity, but learning how to really appreciate the gospel rig is rigorously is really rewarding. So yeah, again, there's a podcast called Exploring Mormon thought. And then there's his book series. So either one, I personally I recommend the podcast cause the book series is filled with that philosophical jargon we were talking about earlier.

21:43 But anyway, so on the Godhead first, I'm just going to light or slowly discuss the Latin Trinity. What we call the Trinity of creedal Christianity is more specifically known as the Latin or classical Trinity. So the way that creedal Christians view the Latin Trinity is that they are three persons but one substance. And I don't, I don't want a straw man this, but it I do find it to be quite illogical and not not compatible with the Hebraic scriptures, the Hebrew scriptures at all. But so in in this Latin Trinity, God is oneself with one first person perspective. In other words, these three persons comprise one I like they are, if I'm to say I versus you, they are one I together somehow. And, and unfortunately, in, in late antiquity, all the early attempts to solve this logical problem were considered heresies and people were like burning the stake over this. So any good solution people offered to this was considered a heresy like modalism or, or other things. So just thought I'd mention that it's, it's an innovation of late antiquity, not Hebraic.

23:08 And it, it was codified in the Nicene Creed in 325. Now we're going to talk about the Mormon Trinity. We have what is called a social Trinity. So like I said, usually when we say the Trinity, we're talking about the Latin or classical Trinity. We have a social Trinity. So our three that the Godhead are three distinct centers of consciousness with with first person recognition. And let's, let's look at what Joseph Smith has to say about this Teachings of the Prophet, page 370. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage. Jesus Christ, a separate and distinct personage from God the Father and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a spirit. And these three constitute 3 distinct personages and three gods.

23:58 If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold, we have three gods anyhow, and they are plural. And who can contradict it? So, and he's right, man. The Scriptures are pretty plain. So these three gods our our the God, the Mormon godhead, which I believe is biblical, the biblical Godhead, they share all knowledge and desires in common except first person knowledge, which is experiential knowledge. So for instance, the Father does not think I hung on the cross on this earth to save mankind. Only the Son can think that. But other other than that first person knowledge, they share all knowledge in common. And I just want to read some verses. Second Nephi Chapter 9 verse 20.

24:45 Oh how great the holiness of our God. For He knoweth all things, and there is not anything saved. He knows it. Then DNC 8841, he comprehendeth all things and all things are before him and all things are round about Him, and He is above all things and all things and is through all things and is round about all things and all things are by him and of him, even God forever and ever. Now let's move back to the Latin Trinity one more time. So I'm here's our first big philosophical word. The creator is ontologically distinct from his creatures In the Latin Trinity. When we're talking about ontology, we're talking about different kind.

25:27 So to say the creator is ontologically distinct means he is a different species than his creatures, which would be us in the Latin Trinity. Humanity are his creatures, He's the creator. They're two different species. However, in the Mormon social Trinity, there is no ontological distinction. We are the same kind. We're the same species. There's no ontological distinction between creator and his created children. And I'm I put created in quotes because our intelligence is eternal. And yes, there there was an element of creation. If you, if you do believe that intelligence is progressed to become spirits and then which progressed to obtain a body. So yeah, there, there seems to be a difference. Or we we were created to some degree, like recreated in his image in the pre existence, but but we're also Co eternal with him in a way.

26:18 And another thing about the Mormon social Trinity, God is a capital H human. He possesses a fullness of humanity and this has to do. This is in the Bible. It's the anthropomorphic principle or the anthropic principle. God has arms and legs and a head and a torso and walks and talks like a man, That's all. Yes, yes, exactly. He's the most moved mover. He, he feels and he walks and talks like we do, so that that's the Godhead. Now let's talk about exaltation and what that entails. So exaltation in this is sort of a different take, but I can show it in Scripture.

27:07 Exaltation emerges from their perfectly loving covenant relationship, and it cannot be obtained alone or in a state of alienation, but it must be obtained through total consecration. And so the Godhead's glory with their exaltation, it emerges from their choice to perfectly embody faith, hope, and charity. And these attributes are necessarily interpersonal. When we talk about faith, hope and charity, it always relates. There's always a relation between US and someone else, whether it's God or a fellow man. So the Godhead have Zion together, they are of 1 heart and one mind.

27:50 And the same means by which we obtain exaltation, all laws, commandments and rituals and scripture are instituted to teach us how to obtain the relationship they have. So think about it, if the way we become exalted is to become one with our fellow man and with God, that's the very way they obtain exaltation. And here's here's the traditional view in Mormonism, at least in my experience growing up in the church, it's legalistic and it's transactional, not very relational. If I just learn to master the laws of the universe, I will go off into some corner of space and have my own planet. I I've grown up and I've left the house.

28:31 However, that is literally the exact opposite of what God wants. You know, he wants total unity. So. Which which I would agree with, right? Because just like it wouldn't make any sense for us to nurture and foster relationships here to have mend on the other side. Likewise, what would be the point of having this relationship with God and then having it simply disappear once we get to the point where He's at currently? Yeah. Or at least have it be kind of distant. You know what I mean, right. The Celestial Kingdom is a state. I'm sure there is a place in the midst of the universe that is dedicated to celestial society, but it is more, more than that. It is a state of being.

29:16 Did the Father and Son leave celestial glory when they visited Joseph Smith here on Earth? No, they they enjoy celestial unity with them, sit with each other and all the gods all the time, no matter where they are. Well, and we can even see this kind of on the the micro and some things Brigham Young stated, right couple talks out of the Journal of Discourse is saying that you don't have to wait to die to experience heaven. If you have if, if, if you're raising a righteous posterity and you have good relationship with your wife or wives, it can be a heaven now, right? Maybe not as glorified as what it will be on the other side, but it's still, it's still a piece of that now. Yeah, you can.

30:01 You can enter the celestial world in this life. And like you said it, it's not like, is it? It's not as if you were in the Celestial Kingdom, but you can be a celestial spirit in this life with a celestial connection to God. So, yeah, I, in fact, I, I listened to your discussion with Justin Frankham that I mentioned at the beginning of this discussion between me and you and you guys talked about pulling heaven down to earth. And that's exactly what we're talking about. That's the whole goal, to square the circle. That's what you, that's what you brought up. So I'm going to read some quotes or some scriptures. I mean, John said, I'm going to show that they share glory and that they are one and that they are exalted together.

30:44 And that does probably contradict some traditional views because the Holy Ghost maybe doesn't have a body and the Son didn't have a body until he came here. But but I think the Scriptures show that they did have some sort of fullness of glory together. So John 1720 through 23. And the glory which thou gavest me, I've given them that they may be 1 even as we are one, I in them and Thou in me, that they may, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that Thou was sent me, and has loved them as Thou has loved me now. DNC 88125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace. So charity's interpersonal charity is the bond of perfectness, of exaltation and peace. OK, now this is a quote from Blake Osler exploring, Exploring Mormon Thought, Volume 2, Chapter 7. Humans are deified by entering into the same type of covenant relationship with the Godhead that constitutes the divine unity.

31:54 So we've talked a lot about glory, what that is. So let's talk about another another kind of big word coming up. And I hope nobody tunes out. I hope nobody's already tuned out because of, you know, some of this because. You're good, but I do. I do want to stop here for a second and talk about this for a little bit. Yeah, please. So are you saying that Christ was already deified, so to speak, before he came here? Is that kind of the contention I'm picking up on? That I'm, I'm contending that I'm open to being wrong. It's not an integral piece of this discussion, but I do, I do believe the scriptures actually make that clear. And it's, it's just our tradition that has sort of prevented us from believing that or whatever. And yes, I understand a body.

32:46 I'm going to, I'm going to show that having a body is necessary for a fullness of joy. But but that's part of that experiential knowledge, right with the in the pre existence with the Father, they existed in the everlasting covenant and therefore Christ had all knowledge except for experiential knowledge. He was sinless in the pre existence and he didn't need a body to overcome his alienation from God because he was fully unified with God. He, he already lived perfect love. He needed a body for the experience and to help our sorry butts. To help atone for our sorry butts. OK, so let let me let me ask this question here then a little bit because she said something that I find interesting. Are you thinking that that in the pre existence we send there as well as here?

33:34 We, I don't know, I I've thought about this, I don't think I can say that we sinned per SE. I think it's possible, but I do know this. We did not to give ourselves fully to God in loving unity. We made the choice not to. And the proof is none of us were in the Godhead. None of us participated fully in the everlasting covenant as as the as the Godhead. You know what I mean? Right. But OK, so, so here's where where it would get tricky, right? If that's what was required to go into Unity there, why wouldn't we have done that? Because we were already there, right? Instead it it it seems to me and and again, just ideas willing to be wrong.

34:25 But from what I read it, it sounds like part of the plan is to come here so that we can gain the experience necessary to be able to then enter the union, right? It seems like the more more mortal toil is, is the necessary ingredient to allow us to have the perspective necessary to join with them in unity. Does that make sense? Yes, and so you're saying it was maybe metaphysically impossible for us to be in that unity without a body in a way. And and I, I, I, and here's why I disagree. But again, I'm open to being wrong.

35:06 Here's why I disagree. Because Christ literally said we were one and he is mentioned as being in the everlasting covenant. He did it without a body, apparently. And we're, no, we're not ontologically different than him and God. We are the same kind. So it was our, I think it was our choice. And I think experience helps us grow in ways that enable us to love more fully. That's evident. Like that is the whole point of life. So I think Christ, for whatever reason, and the Holy Ghost chose, they made the choice to, to, to dwell in this perfect loving unity and we didn't.

35:47 That's the difference between US and the Godhead. That's why Elior Walker and Dave Sanders aren't mentioned in DNC or teachings of the Prophet 190 page 190. You know what I mean? So that's, that's my contention. It's an agency thing, not a, not a lack of age. I think we have the agency to do it, but I think we lack the experience to teach us how to give ourselves fully and for whatever reason the the Son and the Holy Ghost made that choice. Hey, so if I look at Abraham where it talks about, you know, where, where the Lord is viewing all these spirits and said, you know, these will I make my leaders or or my rulers or whatnot. There does seem to be an an idea that that some have more. Oh intelligence, than than we do right while while while you and I were over sharing a bag of Doritos, they were putting in the work right.

36:48 I don't necessarily have have an issue with that part of the argument, but if if all that was required was to go and be in perfect communion with God in the pre existence and then the plan was, well, Jesus will just have to come down and atone at that point. I don't see why he would need to be tested then, right, Because and he he gets tested and he go, he samples mortality, right? He's thrust in the middle of it. Now we can say that's just because he was awesome and he could handle it, but that in some ways to me would make God into a respecter of persons, right?

37:36 Because I think there was, I think there's always a chance that that maybe Jesus didn't fulfill his mission, right? That that that was on the table. Yeah, yeah. I believe he had agency. He didn't have to. Right. And so if he was, if he was that perfect from the beginning, why make him sample the the wares of mortality and go through that bitterness on top of having to perform the atonement? You see what I'm saying? Yeah, and I have an answer for that. But first let me go to what you mentioned about Abraham and the noble and great ones. Yeah, we're talking about the divine council here, the Binet Elohim, the sons of God, which are mentioned in the Old Testament as being the lesser gods, lowercase D gods. So there was definitely a gradient of intelligence and men like Abraham were in God's divine pre mortal council and just in God's divine council.

38:39 Regardless, Now regarding so I totally agree with you regarding the son. Why did he need mortality if he was already in perfect unity? Well, it's the experiential knowledge once again, he because he's in perfect loving unity with the Father in the pre existence, which the scriptures seem to heavily indicate he possesses all knowledge that it's possible for him to have. That is possible because he is in and through all things with the Father. He is wrapped up in covenant relationship with the Father. But what's not possible for him to have that first hand experiential knowledge that cause experience and knowledge increase the capacity for joy. And then also the scripture say material and spirit inseparably connected increase your capacity for joy as well. So what I'm contending is not that Christ had all knowledge, period, and He was like as fully exalted as he could be, but that He did live in perfect loving unity with the Father. He did share in a fullness of divinity because of that, but He did not have the same experience of the Father, nor did he have a body.

39:50 So to become truly like the Father, more like the Father, and increase his capacity for eternal joy and His capacity to help other beings, He came here and experienced what He experienced. That's my contention. Not sure I'm. Not sure I'd buy it yet. I'll be honest with you. We'll see how this goes. But for but for now, I I do have more questions and answers on this, but we'll, we'll go on and see how this goes. Well, even if you don't buy it, the good thing is the the most important. The heart of this discussion is not contingent upon my opinion on that SO. OK, OK. So none of this that we're talking about now is integral to to what's what the main thrust of this is going to be. Exactly.

40:34 OK, I, I enjoy including certain tangential topics when I'm discussing these core concepts because, OK, I think they're, I think they're edifying and interesting, so. OK, no, totally. Now, you do realize your camera just went off, right? Oh, did it really? Yep. All right, hold on, give me one SEC. Now you're back Yep excellent. So let's move on. I'm Mormons love their tradition, so don't hate me for thinking trying to think outside the box and I say that to. The listener.

41:15 I enjoyed this sort of stuff. Yeah, it's, it's interesting. And if I'm wrong, that's fine, man. I love God either way. Yeah. No. Good. Yeah. So let's talk about, we've discussed the Godhead and what their exaltation is like, what their relationships like. Let's talk about now the metaphysics of Mormonism. And I, again, I don't want to come off as pretentious by using these philosophical words, but So what metaphysics means is or has to do with is the nature of existence. So it often deals with the unseen aspects of reality or what's below the surface. So when I use the term Mormon metaphysics or metaphysics, I'm talking about the spiritual realm, the thing that lies under what we can see and interact with physically.

42:01 So metaphysics equal spiritual. So the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith a medical metaphysical system of monism. Now monism means one meaning, intelligence and spirit and matter all exist on the same spectrum. All substances exist on one spectrum. Intelligent spirit are a kind of matter, and DNC 131 seven through 8 says there is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We cannot see it, but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

42:50 Now, this is opposed to the dualism which was prominent just before Joseph's day, where there's a distinction between mind and matter. They don't exist on the same spectrum. The universe is made-up of a spectrum of mind and a spectrum of matter. But the Lord reveals to us that that's not true, that all things exist on one spectrum. All truth is circumscribed into one great hole, right? So, so in Mormonism, a man, Mormonism is so beautiful. There is a spirit, light, glory, life force or energy that emanates from the Godhead and gives life to all things, influences all things, operates within all things and glorifies all beings that receive it and yield to it. And so I'm just going to read a few scriptures I've been reading a lot.

43:44 So DNC 5024 says, that which is of God is light, and he that receiveth light, and continue within God receiveth more light, and that light grow with brighter and brighter, until the perfect day. Now DNC 88, seven through 13, says this is the light of Christ, As also He is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made. And also He is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made, as also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made, And the earth also in the power thereof. Even the earth upon which you stand, and the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through Him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings, which light preceded force in the presence of God to fill the immensity of space.

44:36 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed. Even the power of God, who sitteth upon His throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. And finally, DNC 9336, the glory of God is intelligence, or in other words, light and truth. So my point here is to show that, you know, I grew up for some reason in the church, we grew up with some Protestant notions because nobody teaches meaty doctrine. And I thought, yeah, there's like the ethereal and then there's the the physical, there's the spiritual. So I kind of had a duelist mentality naturally, but but I'm just trying to show the light that or spirit that emanates from God is 1.

45:25 It's it's one thing and it fills the entire universe and all things exist on the spectrum with that light or spirit. And this is their this is this is a aspect of their exaltation. They are in and through all things. This is how they know all things. They are in profound relationship with all things. So in a way, in a way, the Godhead is 1 substance as the Nicene Creed says, but not in the same ideological way. Their three spirits proceed forth from their bodies to not only fill the immensity of space, but they are completely in and through each other. Their spirits are inseparably intertwined. They proceed forth from their immediate presences to to be wrapped up in this covenant unity. Together they share the same light or same spirit. Just as when the Holy Ghost takes up abode in you, when you receive the remission of sins and and do the first saving ordinances, just as God takes up abode in you, at that moment they have taken up abode in one another. Gotcha.

46:35 And we are invited to participate fully in this everlasting covenant as exalted beings. But we needed we were invited from the beginning to participate fully in this covenant and the the God's dealings with us make that evident, you know, constantly revealing the religion of heaven to us to and restoring it to help us participate in that covenant. He he wants us in that thing and there's no reason to think he didn't want us to participate fully in that before mortality. But we needed obviously a physical body to grow, to learn how to love more Foley, and to overcome our selfishness.

47:15 Whereas it appears the Son and Holy Ghost chose perfect love from the beginning based on the statements of Joseph Smith and the Scriptures, and they were apparently free of selfishness. So let me ask you this. What would creation then look like? And when I say creation, I mean mortality. What would mortality look like to us if we would have entered if if your supposition is correct here and we would have entered into that covenant relationship on on in the pre existence? I think we entered it, but we didn't participate fully in it. I think all of humanity was in covenant relationship. That's why that's why we were included in the pre mortal council and given bodies because we were already.

48:00 But what would it have looked like had we all been full participants and and well, it seems that we all would have been a lot more like Christ and this hell hole would have been a lot more like heaven. And I'm not saying we all have agency. So I'm not saying I'm not saying it would have been perfect per SE, even though Christ was perfect himself. But if we had chosen to become that kind of character in the pre existence and sort of forged that character, I can only imagine it would have carried over into mortality, don't you think? Well I'm I'm trying to to square some scriptures I'm thinking of of off the top of my head, right?

48:46 Yeah, you should share. That would right. And and I don't know where they are. You know, I'm thinking of of in the Book of Mormon where it talks about these are the days of your probation that Adam fell, that men may be and men are, that they might have joy. I'm thinking of of all these things, right? That that I don't think, and this is just me and I'm trying to wrap my head around it here a little bit. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying it seems to contradict the plan that that certainly Joseph illuminated through the Restoration, right? That that there is this idea of coming here to be tested. Yeah, absolutely.

49:27 I don't think that changes. So, so do you think there's still testing that would happen as if we fully participated in that? Yeah, 'cause Christ was tested and and again, the experiential knowledge is priceless. Like that's what if you study Brigham Young and Orson Pratt, that is what the gods are doing their whole existence. They are constantly oscillating between fall and exaltation. According to some statements, they are constantly seeking greater experience so they can so they can have greater joy and so they can love more fully. So I think it it would have been because Christ was tested to the extreme.

50:09 So I think it still would have been a mortal probation. But but also those scripture. I don't think there's any logical contradiction between what I'm positing and and some of the scriptures you alluded to. Another thing is those scriptures were given by God with the knowledge that we weren't like that. You know what I mean? So maybe they would read differently had we all happened to participate fully in the everlasting covenant and chosen perfect love. Maybe, maybe the scriptures would read a little bit differently. I'm not. Maybe not though. You know what I mean? Right, OK. Yeah, man, I promise. I I hope it's not all. No, no, you're good.

50:50 Controversial. Just doesn't bug me at all. I enjoy these kind of conversations. You're good and you're, I appreciate your pushback too. This is good 'cause then people can, can study and think for themselves and follow the spirit to their own conclusions. So I'm glad you're pushing back or at least probing, you know, So I'm just going to go into kind of why we needed to come down to mortality. You actually kind of just touched on it. But Abraham 324 through 25 and there stood one among them that was like unto God, by the way, that's that's totally Michael. His name means one like unto God and and, and and the church would tell you that that was Christ, which you know, Christ definitely would fit the same pattern or mold because of who he is.

51:40 But anyway, and there stood one among them that was like unto God, Mika El. And he said unto those who were with him, We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth where on these may dwell. And we will prove them here with to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them. We're here to be proved and, and it and this is a proving ground, because it is much harder to exercise faith, hope and charity in mortality because we are veiled from each other and veiled from God. You know, Can you imagine basking in God's infinite light like I like Lucifer still made a choice to reject it, but but here it's so much harder to to freely give ourselves to God and to one another. But but learning to do that despite the increased challenge is what pulls heaven down to earth and is what helps us overcome our apparent handicaps in the pre mortal existence. So I posit that despite having perfect love already as because they were participants of the everlasting covenant, the Son and Holy Ghost desired bodies for greater experiential knowledge.

52:58 And DNC 9333 says the elements are eternal and spirit and element inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy. And also, of course, the Son out of pure love for us volunteered to make an atonement for us, which is, you know, nothing short of a miracle and a blessing for us. So that sort of wraps up our section on the everlasting covenant. I invite everyone to go study that and, and study that term throughout the scriptures and, you know, come to their own knowledge on that. But now this leads into the doctrines of fall and atonement. So we we needed to fall into mortality to gain experiential knowledge and Christ is going to help us learn how to become at 1:00 with God how to how to atone basically, So I'm able to share my screen correct? Yes.

53:57 All right, let's see. OK, Let me know if you can see that. It's coming up. It says double clean. Click to enter screen mode. There we go. Cool. Gotcha. OK, so to set up. Campbell, the hero's journey. That's right. To set up fall and atonement, we need to discuss the hero's journey first. Now, the hero's journey is found in all the greatest texts of the world, the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Egyptian Pyramid Texts, the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, the Babylonian and Muna Elish, and the Iliad and Odyssey, and so on. I could go on forever.

54:54 Pretty much almost any story contains a hero's journey. It is an eternal pattern, and it's characterized by three stages, and I'm going to give some examples. These 3 stages have various names. So our first example is Trouble at Home, Exile Abroad, so so you start at the top. For the listener, the Hero's Journey is a cycle. So picture a circle in your head. At the top of the circle is Trouble at Home. Then you go down to the bottom of the circle, exile abroad, and then back to the top. Happy Homecoming. Next example, at the top is Separation, at the bottom is initiation, and then you return to the top again for the return. And this is the next 1 is my favorite rendition of the hero's journey because it's so relevant to the gospel. At the top is creation, at the bottom of this cycle is fall, and then at the top again is atonement, or at one meant. It is a cycle, a cycle of living and being that we all participate in.

56:11 And it is also a fractal, an eternal, a spiraling pattern. So here pictured, I had a golden spiral or the Fibonacci sequence. So the the pattern of the hero's journey is not just a circle, but it is a fractal. It is a spiral because you continue this journey upward through the eternities forever, according to Brittanyon, Norris and Pratt, right? Yeah, no, it's, it's the, the the golden spiral is, is AB absolutely a, an apartment description of of eternal progression going on forever, never stopping. Right, and it's it's obviously not an accident that God put it everywhere in nature because remember, all things testify of Christ and he's the hero.

56:55 So let's move on to the next slide. So I just have illustrated before I had a golden spiral. Now I have a golden spiral with creation, fall and atonement repeated all the way upward through eternity, you could say. So just repeating creation, fall, atonement, creation, fall, atonement. So the hero's journey is based off of or, or I guess the original hero's journey is manifest in two forms. And these are the two oldest stories in the world and all of the most ancient religious texts these stories are portrayed. And this is where the hero's journey comes from. So first is the creation story.

57:39 So we just talked about the three phases of the hero's journey. So the first phase of the creation story which is which again is the archetypal hero's journey. The first phase, the creator God exists in the midst of the uncreated chaotic cosmos. Second he falls or he wrestles with this pre-existing chaos by extending his light to fill it. And 3rd, he successfully orders it into creation. And this is where we get our doctrine of creation X materia or creation out. Creation out of materials instead of out of nothing. Because I'm pretty sure every single ancient religious text hints at or teaches creation X materia.

58:23 Creation X nihilo, or creation out of nothing is a later innovation, just like the Latin Trinity is. So Yep, Yep, the next one, the next archetypal hero's journey. And, and this one is heavily related to to the creation story by the way, is the combat myth. So the first phase, starting at the top of the cycle, the creator God and his divine counsel exist in harmony. Second phase, fall, they are battled against by rebellious God or beast. Think about a serpent, a dragon or a devil. Third atonement. And then they're victorious when the creator God or a beloved son of his defeats the enemy, sometimes sacrificing their life to do so.

59:12 And again, these are the two oldest stories in the world. And this is where the the Hero's journey comes from. So I'm going to stop sharing for now. We can see that pattern repeated in a lot of different myths, right? Oh yeah, Norse. Norse mythology had Thorinodin right in the in the Greek pantheon you had you had Zeus and Hercules right. You always have a divine offspring of the God. Yeah, yeah. And he's always taking one for the team. Yep, he is. Yep. So let's talk about Adam and Yeshua, Adam and Jesus, the archetypes of of fall and atonement. So we usually associate Adam with the fall. And Christ with the atonement.

1:00:07 However, it's important to remember both of these holy men embodied the pattern of creation, fall, atonement. So even though there is rightfully an association, Adam, with the fall of Christ of the atonement, they both, dare I say, perfectly embodied the whole pattern. So Adam fell for all mankind, that we might be, that we might have joy. Every good Mormon should know that verse and by exercising faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and embodying the commandments and ordinances, he became at one with God again. And pay attention to that word I use embody. I say this to the listener because that is a key term and we're going to talk about that later. But so Adam fell for us, and just imagine how painful and dreadful that would be.

1:00:59 You should read any everybody should read The Pseudepigraphal Life of Adam and Eve, and might not be gospel truth, but it really kind of makes you want to weep for how hard their fall must have been. Yep. Yeah, sounds like you've been around the block and. Yeah, no, I've, I've, I've dove into some of those and and it is heartbreaking because like it's, it's certainly insinuated in Mormonism, especially in the temple ceremony. There is a recognition that happens once Eve partakes of the fruit, right? She she references, oh, I know who I know you now, so to speak. And and I can only imagine that coupled with that knowledge would have been the knowledge from whence they came. And so that fall is going to be very, very pronounced now. Oh yeah, and just in my life, I've when I was like a late teenager, early 20s, I've fallen from grace before, meaning I have enjoyed the Holy Spirit and I have lost the Holy Ghost and that I literally know.

1:02:09 I know the pains of hell. I know them. I in the torment of the soul, I can't imagine what they went through. You know what I mean? So. Bless that they they reach their exaltation. Yes. You mean beforehand? Yeah, Can you imagine that descending from celestial to celestial? That's crazy dude. Yep, Yep. And then having to to then make the conscious choice for their children. And some people get mad when I say this. What Adam and Eve done is every bit as much atoning in some ways as what Jesus does in the sense of they fell so that we could be what happened to Jesus.

1:02:57 He fell that we could enter again into God's presence. It is. It is very much the same, the same thing. Same exact pattern. Same exact pattern. So we discussed Adam and his association with the fall. Let's you know, Speaking of, let's discuss Christ and his atonement. Christ atone for all mankind that we might share eternal life with the Godhead, as you just stated, Dave. And he fell. Christ also fell, though He also fell because he condescended into immortality below all things in a perfect walk with God, that he might raise all beings unto God. So, so we all embody creation, fall, atonement, even Adam and Jesus.

1:03:49 So atonement is a very rich word that we take for granted. So let's go, let's get into the word atonement. The word atonement is a compound of three words at one meant to be at 1. William Tyndale coined this term when translating the Bible into English and he was trying to describe what Christ's sacrifice did for us. The the English word atonement is not related to the Hebrew word kafar or the Greek catalog. Semantically, Tyndale was trying to describe what he did and it's it's an I love that he coined that word because it's perfect in my opinion.

1:04:31 But as I just alluded to, the word atonement or at one mint is based on the Hebrew Kafar and Greek catalog. So kafar means to cover. In fact, cover sounds like Kafar, and that's not an accident, as in to expiate sin by covering it, just as the blood of animals covered the altar in ancient Israel. And this is not a superficial covering. Think of you being covered in or wrapped together with God. It's a covenantal covering. It's relational, it's profound. Now catalog. The Greek denotes reconciliation or a balancing of the books.

1:05:15 So there is a being covered in God being covered by God being reconciled to God. That's where Tyndale coined the term at one MIT to be made at one with him. Got you. So most people who haven't really, I'm a total amateur when it comes to philosophy and theology, but, but I, I am kind of a geek. I, I do do love diving in and I wouldn't say the philosophies of men. There's a such thing as good philosophy that that is edifying to the soul. But most people who haven't really dove into that world don't know that there are different theories of atonement. Before the restoration, there were several competing theories of atonement. Oh gosh, I can't remember any of them off the top of my head. But oh, like the the penal substitution theory, like Christ, Christ was our whipping boy. Like back back in medieval times, the king wouldn't or couldn't whip his son because his son was royalty. So they would have a servant boy be the whipping boy where they would whip him when the king was mad at his son for goofing off, he'd whip the whipping boy instead. That's that's what the penal substitution theory is. Christ is the whipping boy.

1:06:30 And there's there's several other competing theories of atonement because believe it or not, the scriptures aren't exactly clear on what the atonement exactly does and how it exactly works. Well, the restoration is incredible because the doctrine of covenants in Book of Mormon give us new a new theory of atonement. And Blake Osler has coined the term the compassion theory of atonement. So as I was saying, atonement is not purely or at all. Atonement is not needed because of penal substitution where somebody has to pay the price because God is literally unable or unwilling to forgive otherwise. And yes, the demands of justice need to be satisfied, but we we should go over what that means.

1:07:18 Atonement is needed to enable Christ to show us how to become at one with Him and the Father and to rend our veils of unbelief that we draw near to them and freely give ourselves to them in broken hearted gratitude. In other words, the atonement is actually interpersonal and not transactional. Every other theory of atonement is transactional. This for that. Well, since you guys messed up, Christ is paying the price now. It's a transaction. However, in Mormonism we have a very interpersonal atonement and I'm going to show you that. Mosiah 15, seven through 9. Yeah, Even so he shall be LED crucified and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death, giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men, having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy being filled with compassion toward the children of men standing betwixt them. And justice, having broken the bands of death taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions having redeemed them and satisfied the demands of justice. Now I do, I have two more scriptures to read, but I just want to say when I sort of denounce theories like the penal substitution theory, the scriptures do paint that picture partially, but that doesn't mean that's the whole picture. And that doesn't mean we're

1:08:50 supposed to run with these analogies that the apostles and prophets are giving us and like and build a whole theory out of how it works with them. So again, we're getting a more compassionate atonement here in Mormon scripture. Let's go on to Alma 711 through 13. And he shall go forth suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind. And this said, the Word might be fulfilled, which say, If He will take upon him the pains and sicknesses of his people, and He will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind His people. And He will take upon him their infirmities. That His bowels may be filled with mercy according to the flesh, that He may know according to the flesh how to sucker his people according to their infirmities.

1:09:37 Now the Spirit knoweth all things. Nevertheless, the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that He might take upon him the sins of His people, that He might blot out their transgressions according to the power of His deliverance. And now behold, this is a testimony which is in me. So not only does it showcase that the atonement is compassion based and not not like based on sort of this punishment, so to speak, but it also shows that what I was saying earlier by virtue of being connected in the everlasting covenant and having a shared spirit that fills the immensity of space, Christ knows all things. See now the Spirit knoweth all things.

1:10:19 Nevertheless, the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh, that He might take upon Him the sins of his people, that He might blot out their transgressions according to the power of His deliverance and so on. So and then one more. DNC88 6HE that ascended up on high as also He descended below all things in that He comprehended all things that He might be in and through all things the light of truth. So I I contend that Christ was already omniscient as possible, as omniscient as it was possible for him to be by virtue of the everlasting covenant.

1:11:00 But he needed and desired this first person experience to help draw us to him to be filled with compassion for us to know how to help us. And let's talk about actually the word compassion. I forgot to mention it a few verses ago. Compassion literally comes from the Latin cum passione, and it means literally to be with Christ needed to be with us, to come down and condescend to be with us, in order to know how to help us draw near unto Him and the Father, how to rend our veil of of unbelief so. So let me ask you this then, because because I want to, I want to sit here and I want to look at, at the, the covenantial, the the transactional model versus the compassionate model. Yeah.

1:11:51 As I've been thinking about it here, why is it not both? Shouldn't it be both? Because Christ obviously sets terms. Yeah. With with the atonement, right? I mean, look, I'm, you're going to be forgiven of your sins, but the, the, the, the price of that is the price of discipleship now, right? You're, you're going to follow me, you're going to take up your cross, right? Yeah. And And so on some level it's still transactional, isn't it? Yes, so, and this is waiting in deeper waters, but yeah, let's let's talk about this. Transactions are an essential part of any and all relationships, even interpersonal relationships. So when I talk about transactional versus interpersonal, I'm talking about how you view and approach the relationship.

1:12:41 Transactions are just so, so for somebody who engages in transactional relationships, everybody is a means to an end for them. They're always looking for the transit. And, and the sad fact is most of us on this earth approach most relationships transactionally most of the time. So that's just a sad fact. And it takes true part of repentance is really looking inward of being honest with yourself about that. We're going to get into that later. But yes, there is transaction. What you're talking about is covenant faithfulness. And this is this gets into the whole debate in the New Testament between Mormons and Christians too, about faith versus works.

1:13:25 The faith is what justifies you or or no, sorry, grace is what justifies you. Justification is a is a gift of grace. But in the Hebraic view, after that you're expected to be faithful to the terms of the covenant or and it's not that it's a transaction, because if you are accepted into covenant relationship as a gift of grace and then you fail to be faithful to the terms of the covenant, you are actually rejecting the interpersonal relationship. So it's not that God requires the transactions, it's that it by rejecting sort of the the faithfulness you, you are rejecting the interpersonal covenant.

1:14:10 You know what I mean? I don't know if I muddied the waters even more or if I have anything to. Go on. I, I don't think so. I, I think I see what you're, what you're saying there a little bit. I, I guess, I guess as I look at it, it seems to be very clear, right, That, that because it also seems to be that that covenant that that transactional nature goes up the higher you go in your covenant making, right. If if you screw up as, as somebody who's just learning about the gospel, well, it's bad, but it's not as bad as if you screw up after you've been baptized and it's not as bad.

1:14:51 You know, that's not as bad as if you screw up on your temple covenants, right? And so there does seem to be a level of transactionality that is happening here because the, the, the promises you do XY and ZI do this. Now, I do agree with you that at some point you have to dig deeper, right? And oftentimes I've pointed back to Christ in the garden when you start talking about the will. And often I've used thought of covenants as a way of making you reach higher and deeper within yourself to present that to God. Well, I love what you said. I'm filling the spirit right now. I have an answer to your you're wondering, if you will, what happens when you you?

1:15:36 There is, like I said, there is always a transactional element to relationships. I am positing and I think all scripture is on my side, but that that the transaction is not the is not how to approach the relationship. So I guess what I would say is when you do break a covenant, when you don't keep your end of the bargain, so to speak, why is that such a problem? It's because you harmed the relationship and and breaking covenants and commandments always harms other people or your relationship with God. So it's the relationship is still the focal point. But I'm glad you brought that up.

1:16:17 You know what I mean. Yep, Yep. Nope. That makes sense. Yeah, I'm glad though, That's that's good. Good for me to think deep and make sure I'm not just. So you said one other thing that that had me that that I thought of and that was something about, you know, the what was it you said about Grace here a few seconds ago? Yeah. So there's the there's the traditional Christian view that there grace versus works. Works are bad, it's all grace. But then there's the Hebraic view, the original Israelite and 2nd Temple Jew view, and Mormon view that there's a grace is what justifies us.

1:17:03 It's it's how we're accepted into covenant. But then faithful works are how we maintain the covenant relationship. But the reason why faithful works maintain covenant relationship is not because it's a it's purely A transaction, but it's because doing otherwise harms relationships, like not keeping the commandments. The commandments are all built around helping us develop perfect love for one another and with God. So it's not that. Well, you're not doing the work, so you're not keeping your end of the bargain. It's not as simple as that. It's because it harms the relationship. Did that jog your memory? Yep, I think so. Go ahead and move on.

1:17:44 If it comes to me later, we may backtrack a bit. OK, to some, if anybody's thinking, I have a Protestant or Catholic view on grace and works, I absolutely do not. I, I, I wholeheartedly accept the Israelite and Mormon view on grace and work. So I hope that's, we're actually going to get into that. That's key to the doctrine of yeah, that's, that's key to the doctrine of Christ. So let's see. I just want to say, I guess I'll read, I don't know if I read Third Nephi 2714 through 15, so I'll just read it. And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross.

1:18:25 And after that I'd, I'd been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men near unto me, That as I've been lifted up by men, Even so should men be lifted up by the Father to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. And for this, 'cause I've been lifted up, therefore according to the power of the Father, I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works. So I just want to say I do not believe in teddy bear Jesus, but I do want to get across that interpersonal relationship and compassion are at the heart of everything. Yes, yes, when we transgress, there is pain involved and justice, you know, justice must be paid, but it's it's not because somebody has to be punished or it's not this transactional thing.

1:19:19 So at one mint is made possible by the atonement of Christ and his life and atonement gave us the experience he needed to help us to send back to the father. Those last four passages I read like pretty much literally say that they they they they feel they allow his bowels to be filled with compassion, to be with Kum Passi. And according to the scriptures of the restoration, as I just read, his mortal journey moves his bows with compassion. He experienced all the woes of mortality in their extreme, unlike, well, some of us maybe do experience that, but he definitely did to include, and these are the woes of mortality, the three big ones, pain, temptation, and most of all, alienation.

1:20:10 Alienation is sort of the antithesis of interpersonal unity. So he experienced all of those in their fullness. And his alienation was the absolute worst. He left the most loving and fulfilling relationship possible, the everlasting covenant, to experience the general alienation of being mortal. Because we're veiled, right? We're veiled from the Father's light. We do have the light of we do have a little bit of it, the light of Christ. But you know what I'm trying to say? And so he he left that relationship to experience general alienation that humanity brings. He emptied himself of the Godhead's shared glory when he condescended into mortality, and he eventually experienced the total alienation of darkness or of outer darkness on the cross. And Blake Osler says, imagine the person in the whole history of the world who is most conscious of the presence of God the Father with him throughout his entire mortal life. And then when he's brought to the breaking point on the cross, when he needs his father most, he's not there for him. He gives this excruciating cry from the cross. And it's so important that it's preserved in the original Aramaic that he spoke.

1:21:29 Ali, Ali, la masa Bhaktani, my God, my God, why has thou abounded me in this moment? It's like he's so overwhelmed by the fact that God is not there with him in his moment of greatest need when his entire life he has walked in the closest relationship with God that enter that any human being ever had. So he grew just to touch on that. He did walk with God as close as a human could be, but he still had to grow grace for for grace in that. And he still experienced that general alien nation, you know, of mortality. But obviously that should be really moving to us what he was going to do for us. I almost choked up and I never do that. So.

1:22:11 So not only did he experience total alienation or did he? Which is equivalent to falling below all things. Not only did he experience the hardest fall other than Adam you could argue, but he also experienced full at one mint in his mortal life. He grew grace for grace until he was transfigured on the mount. And then, you know, during a transfiguration you are celestialized temporarily. You are in full unity with the Father. Like think about Enoch or Moses or Mahanray Mauryankimer, the brother of Jared. To be in the presence of God is to be fully at one with him in that moment.

1:22:55 The only kind of people who are in the presence of God, immortality are those who already who have forged A celestial relationship with him. So so Christ does re receive full at one mint in mortality temporarily, but even more stirring, he also received full at one mint with humanity and Gethsemane when he experienced all of our woes and travails and sins. So he not only did he fall the farthest in life, but he he became at one in mortality the farthest. So he, Christ is the archetypal hero, archetypal hero in the hero's journey. I would argue he and Adam, Christ lovingly descended from unity in the everlasting covenant into the dark and dreary waste, and then ascended from this fall to at one mint in grace and perfection. And his footsteps have paved the straight narrow path from the dark and dreary waste to the tree of life. So his life is sort of book ended by fall and atonement. He falls into immortality and then he makes that one mint. But within his life he also has fallen at one mint, fall on the cross when God leaves him, but at that one mint before that on the Mount of Transfiguration and in Gethsemane. So he is just like the epitome of fall, creation, fall and at one mint.

1:24:19 And this just shows that all things do testify of Christ. Every fractal pattern in nature, we testify of Christ because we undergo the hero's journey too. And me and you are like on three different hero's journeys at once. You know, like, like our whole life is a hero's journey, this single, but so is the single mom's trip to the store with four screaming kids. That is a hero's journey, but so is me and you coming home after a hard day's work and being brave enough to be present with our wives and children. You know, like, like this is a fractal and multivalent process, the hero's journey. And and This is why all things testify of Christ, because he's the epitome of that pattern.

1:25:06 Absolutely. Yeah. So anything you want to say because we're finally moving on to the doctrine of Christ now that we've. Covered Well, I don't think so. I think that hero's journey is, is an important thing to pay attention to and and look, I I mentioned Campbell half jokingly when we first started. This but. Yeah, going back and watching that is not a bad thing. I think it was an old PBS special from like the 80s that that absolutely will paint a good picture of this because it does show up right. I think it's a pattern that that the Lord has instinctively or not instinctively but but purposely given to man to to harken us back to the Savior's journey and our own, quite frankly. Yeah, I love that.

1:25:50 I thanks for that encouragement to me, you know, go back and watch that or. Oh, you've never watched that? No, no. I. Never. Oh yeah, you got to go back. It's fantastic. OK, I might have you remind me after our discussion. So, OK, moving on to the doctrine of Christ, again, the everlasting covenant and the fallen at one mint, Doctrines of fallen at one mint are the major groundwork for the doctrine of Christ. But we're moving, so we're moving into that. But first, let's discuss apocalyptic literature and temple liturgy, which is, in my opinion, the the juicy stuff in my. Now you're getting to my.

1:26:33 Now we're getting to my jam. All right. Yeah, dude, I'm I'm the same way brother. It's it's. Now we're getting to my jam. OK well so please I I would love any insight you have 'cause I'm sure you could teach me quite a bit. Wow. I don't know, dude. Well, so the word apocalypse and and. People usually associate this with end times, but that's not what it means. The word apocalypse comes from the Greek apocalypsis and it simply means yes, exactly. It means a revealing or an unveiling. And the reason why people associate it with the end times is because John had a revelation of the end times and so of other prophets. But but the word just means revelation. It doesn't have to be a revelation about the last days or destruction.

1:27:24 So the apocalyptic texts of ancient Israel often that they follow a usual pattern and not every apocalyptic text contains every aspect of the pattern, but they all contain parts of the pattern, if not the whole thing. So the usual pattern is that a prophet is taken on a three-part journey through the heavens, which culminates in a revelation in a revelation of God known as a throne theophany, during which the prophet is admitted into God's presence and also into the divine council. Who are God's most trusted inner circle, His noble and great ones, the ones who help him carry out his plans for the earth and for his wicked covenant people.

1:28:11 So as I said this, this revelation of God is called a throne theophany and examples of apocalyptic texts are found in Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel. Revelation. First, Nephi, dude. First Nephi is probably my favorite book of scripture hands down. Second, Nephi is a close contender, but. Also, so those are the two, sorry, I'm going to go back to the LDS days, right. It was often said that those are the two most read books because everyone starts out with a view of reading the Book of Mormon and they get through 1st and 2nd Nephi and then just stop. Well, it's, it's funny because I used to dread them because I've read again. I had started the Book of Mormon 100 times and I had read them more than any other. So I was tired of them and two Isaiah chapters, right? Well, come to find out when I learned these ancient Hebraic patterns that they are a treasure trove of knowledge and rich mystical experience.

1:29:10 And they, the 1st and 2nd Nephi are as are the GOAT, as the kids say, grace, greatest of all time. So yeah, I encourage everyone to, to learn these patterns we're discussing right now. So I I mentioned some apocalyptic texts in the scriptural Canon, but there are also some really amazing apocalyptic texts outside the Canon in the Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha, such as the Apocalypse of Adam, First, Second and Third Enoch, the Apocalypse of Abraham, the Testament of Abraham, the Testament of Levi, and the Ascension of Isaiah. Now again, in each of these, the prophet is taken on a three-part cosmic journey to the heavens to see God, to be admitted into his counsel, to receive a message or prophecy for his people.

1:30:01 And, and these three-part cosmic journeys are specifically meant to be mapped on to the three spaces of the ancient temple, right? They, they often reference the architecture and furnishing of the Tabernacle, even though it's, even though what you're envisioning is a prophet being taken into space through the heavens to see God. It, it will mention some of the furnishing and layout of the temple along the way. And so it, it's the same ascent. You know, a prophet's three-part journey through the heavens is synonymous within initiates 3 part journey through the temple.

1:30:43 The only difference is the prophet's apocalyptic ascent is like the real deal and the thing we want, whereas the temple is the teaching tool to obtain that and and obviously bestow authority and that kind of thing. So in this way, because there is a relation between apocalyptic text and temple temple journeys, many apocalyptic texts are also liturgical texts. Right. Liturgical texts? Are they outline or explain ritual processes? Temple. And you know and you know that this and you know how how amazing the scriptures become when you when you learn how to find these patterns. But temple liturgy is intentionally hidden all throughout the scriptures.

1:31:35 Placing narratives or stories within a liturgical framework is an ancient literary technique used by prophets and scribes. And learning to identify liturgy in Scripture is fascinating, edifying, and truly part of understanding the Hebrew Scriptures. So were you going to say something? You know, there, yeah, there is a school of thought right now and it's floated around for a while, and it's one that I don't agree with it all. And this is an idea when it comes to temple work that what's most important is that you receive not just the covenant, but but the associated tokens that go along with it, right?

1:32:21 And that's really. What you need? I don't agree with that and I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you why I don't agree with that, that that idea, because what is it that we're told in addition to the atonement? The atonement is what saves us, right? It's it's salvatic in nature. The atonement allows us to come forward in the resurrection. It allows us to have that bridge back if we so choose to take it. In Mormonism, it goes a step further with this idea of exaltation, right? And Joseph is very clear that the key to to becoming exalted is you first need the atonement, and then you need sacred knowledge on top of that, right? You can only be saved sofa as as fast as you can gain knowledge, right?

1:33:14 The only thing you take with you to the other side is your. Is the knowledge right? Yes. In addition, with your family relationships and that and and that and so in my opinion, if we read Brigham Young right, Brigham has that great quote where he says you know by taking your endowment has to receive all those ordinances in the House of Lord that will enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father. Giving the the the appropriate keywords, signs and tokens, blah blah, blah. That will allow you to pass the angels that stand as Sentinels. All those tokens are there for is a way of representing that you've had that liturgical sacred knowledge passed to you.

1:34:04 It's an identifying marker. And So what is it? That is truly the important thing that we are gaining in the temple. Well, it's the covenant and it's the associated sacred knowledge that allows us to give that token, which is a symbol of that liturgical or that sacred knowledge. It it shows that we have been initiated. I fully agree. And it's the, it's the physical is very important. We're here to bring heaven down to earth. Embodiment is super important. But I, I'd say maybe the most important thing about signs and tokens is the inward patterns they teach. And I'm not, I'm not trying to go Protestant on us 'cause I do believe in the embodied life.

1:34:53 I think it's critical, but it's it's the becoming that they teach and we're going to get into that too. And I'm stoked because it's one of my favorite topics. Rituals are a fascination of mine. And they're they are way more precious than we give them credit for. So yeah, I'm glad. I'm really glad you brought that up. Couldn't agree more with you. And I, I, I love that quote by Brigham Young. Like I love the imagery, always have. So like I said, some sacred texts are entirely apocalyptic or liturgical, while others contain scattered elements of liturgy and ascension.

1:35:34 And and again, learning to identify liturgy and apocalyptic writings like the Book of Mormon is completely transformed because it is all over the Book of Mormon. I mean, the scriptures become this you, you become excited to read it every time, especially if you understand the inward implications and the inward things that these texts are teachings. So I, I, I encourage people to, to look into that for themselves. So I'm going to share again if that's OK. Yeah, absolutely. Cool, let's. See. Hold on one SEC.

1:36:20 OK? All right, Let me know when you can see my screen. You. Can see it. OK, so I'm just going to go over some really general examples of apocalyptic ascents. The first one you might see in Scripture, like First Enoch comes to mind is a profit ascending from simply the 1st heaven to the 2nd heaven, then to the 3rd heaven. And what was it? Was it Paul? Enoch goes to all three. Was it Paul who said I'd been caught up to the 3rd heaven or he knew somebody who had? Yes. And, and I just want to say Joseph has a statement where Paul was caught up to to the third, but I was caught up to the 7th.

1:37:04 I, I'll, I'll totally take that at face value. I do want to say the idea of there being 7 heavens is a later innovation as as sort of ancient times evolve into late antiquity they just keep adding heavens. Like eventually there's like 99 heavens but originally it was 3 heavens. And and in in the most ancient texts, the texts of ancient Israel, except for maybe the ascension of Isaiah, there are three heavens. So another example, this is the temple. The temple was sent ascending from the outer court to the Holy Place, to the Holy of Holies.

1:37:47 Right. Same journey essentially, and here's ours. Same exact thing. Joseph was an inspired prophet of God ascending from the celestial to the terrestrial to the celestial. And the final, yes, exactly. The final one I'm going to bring up is directly related to what we're going to be getting into, because we are pretty much ready for the doctrine of Christ, Lehigh's apocalyptic ascent from the dark and dreary waste to the straight, narrow path into the tree of life. Got you. So here's something else I want to say about these three-part journeys.

1:38:31 We talked about how our hero's journey takes part or takes. Well, the Lord works in fractal patterns. Not only is the hero's journey A3. Part Journey. But the the apocalyptic liturgical ascent is a three-part journey within the three-part hero's journey. The apocalyptic ascent is the journey from fall back to at one mint. So you have a three-part journey within a three-part journey. And that is reminiscent of our modern, our, our latter day temple layout. You have the three degrees of glory and then you have the three degrees within the third degree of glory. And that's that's just how God works, OK? So let's talk about the doctrine of Christ. And so, as I just explained, Lehigh. 'S vision.

1:39:28 Is a great example of both an apocalyptic and a liturgical text. Now Lehigh's vision is masterfully explained by Nephi in Second Nephi 31 through 32. So you have Lehigh's vision transcribed in first Nephi 8 and then by Second Nephi 31 through 32, Nephi is going back and explaining what Lehi's vision meant and explaining some of the elements of Lehi's vision. And this is where we get the doctrine of Christ. So because the doctrine of Christ is the doctrinal explanation of Lehigh's apocalyptic liturgical 3 part ascent, it can also be the doctrinal explanation for every other three-part apocalyptic ascent. So if you're reading first Enoch, think about the doctrine of Christ as Enoch is ascending from the 1st to the 2nd to the 3rd heaven and so on.

1:40:27 Which is pretty cool that that this is that way, but so I'm. I don't think I'm going to read. The doctrine of Christ. But I will say first Nephi 8 and 2nd Nephi 31 to 32 are some of the single most important chapters in all of Scripture. And I would also include Christ's visit to the Nephites in that as well. But so first. Oh, and one more thing. I'm getting ahead of myself, so I explained how apocalyptic texts can be. Mapped onto the. Temple. They're liturgical. Well, because the doctrine of Christ is an explanation of a liturgical vision.

1:41:13 It is also directly applicable to the temple. And Nephi wants us to apply to the temple. He he wants us to map the doctrine of Christ onto the three-part space of the temple, just as he uses it, uses it to explain his Father's three-part vision. So first, the first principle of the doctrine of Christ is faith, and in my opinion, faith. Applies to the entrance. Of the ancient Tabernacle, the entrance to the outer court, because the ancient Tabernacle is composed of the outer court, the Holy Place, and the Holy of Holies. So by even coming into the entrance you are exercising faith in God and His plan. OK, the next step of the doctrine. Cool and and if you.

1:42:01 Want, if we want to just quickly map this onto the endowment faith, which is mapped onto the entrance would be the law of obedience would also be mapped onto the entrance because we're, we're committing to obey whatever he asks us to do. We're we're setting foot on the journey he wants us to set foot on, so to speak. OK, the next element of the doctrine of Christ, repentance. Remember, the doctrine of Christ is faith, repentance. Baptism, the gift of the Holy. Ghost and endure to the end. So repentance directly maps on to the very first structure in the outer court. You go from the entrance to the altar of sacrifice, and the reason repentance maps on to the altar of sacrifice is because the definition of repentance in Scripture is to lay yourself or your heart on the altar. Is that tracking?

1:42:58 Yep, that tracks. OK. And. What also maps? On to the altar. The law of sacrifice in the endowment. It's an altar law of sacrifice, so third element of the doctrine of Christ. We've done faith and repentance and we've done the law of obedience to the law of sacrifice. Now it's baptism. Baptism maps to the to the next structure after the altar of Sacrifice, which is the Laver where the priests would be washed so. And also. Oh, I guess next next is the holy. Ghost.

1:43:42 Now I have. The Holy Ghost mapped on. To the. Clothing and anointing. Which takes place after the labor, but before the holy place. And here's why. And I I think this is clearly deliberate. In the most ancient texts you have the robes or the the clothes which are usually depicted as the garment or the coat of skins or the garment of light. In all the ancient texts, the coat of skins and or garment of light represents the literal spirit of the Creator God, also the Holy anointing. Oil clear that.

1:44:23 Literally in scripture, several times the anointing oil is directly equated with the Spirit of God, so as faith maps up the entrance. Repentance maps onto the. Altar baptism maps onto the labor. The Holy Ghost clearly maps on the the clothing and anointing that takes place just before the Holy Place. And did we skip the law? Did we skip the Law of the Gospel? No, the law of the Gospel is summed up by the Laver and also the clothing and anointing. Because it is the law of the Gospel to be. Baptized. To receive the Spirit of God and to yield to that spirit in all things which will, which will automatically lead to keeping the 2 great commandments, loving God and loving your neighbor. So it's kind of similar to the surrendering of the will, right? Yes, 100% to put that.

1:45:20 Will on the altar, just like Christ had to. Do in the garden, right? You know, not my will. I'll be done. So it's it's the surrendering of the will. Yeah. And and that that like sounds like. Repentance to me, which is mapped onto the altar. But the thing about that is you have to be repentant to move on to the next step to even receive to actually receive the Holy Ghost. I'm not talking about the ordinance of the gift of the Holy Ghost. I'm talking about actually receiving the Holy Ghost at right now. And yes, the ordinance is. Clearly critical. But to actually receive the Holy Ghost, yeah, you do need to have already made that sacrifice.

1:46:06 So again, again, faith maps on to the entrance, sacrifice maps on to the altar or or repentance maps on to the altar, Baptism maps on to the Laver, and the Holy Ghost clearly maps on to clothe leading and anointing, which both traditionally represented the spirit of the creator God. And then you have the first three laws. Of the temple here too. And the next step is to endure to the end. This is when you. Enter the Holy Place after you have exercised faith and the true repentance, have been baptized by proper authority, and have truly received the Spirit of the Creator. The next step is to endure to the end.

1:46:46 And you know, we could go into the table of showbread and the menorah in the holy place because now you're in the holy place now that you've done all these preliminary steps and the table of showbread and menorah. Justin Frankham again makes a really good case for those being able to represent consecration and chastity. So that's where they're that's where those next two laws would come into play during the enduring to the end part of the process which leads to the holy, the Holy of Holies, the Tree of life, the Ark of the Covenant or the everlasting Covenant, right. So for those who weren't listening, I hope you can watch these slides at some point because I've shown how the doctrine of Christ and our modern LDS temple map on are meant to map on to the ancient temple. All right, I think.

1:47:42 That's all I got for slides. One SEC. So now. Comes the question. Like, we've seen the map, we've we've geeked out over the apocalyptic texts and the liturgy and all that. Now it's like like we got to we got to discuss how the rubber meets the road. How do we actually do this? And this whole it's all academic up to this point. Exactly. And and it's. I love it, the spirit is there, but yes. It's all academic now. We got to talk about the actual becoming, not just looking at the map.

1:48:25 So the thing about this whole process. Is that? The 1st 2:00 points of the doctrine of Christ are the thing that keep this thing going and repeating the whole time. Faith and repentance. If you are living in a state of being that is faith and repentance. Cause faith and repentance aren't just things we do, it is a state of being we exist in. If you were living in that state of being you are in perpetual motion. You were constantly undergoing creation, fall, atonement, constantly participating in that three-part ascent from fall to atonement. It is it is the thing that leads you to exaltation, faith and repentance. They are the engine faith in Jesus Christ and true repentance.

1:49:12 And the problem with these is that we don't understand them because we don't study maybe the ancient understanding of these things and we also kind of fall back in our traditions. So let's talk, let's talk about faith real quick. So the Hebrew word for faith is emuna. That's actually where the word Amen comes from. Amen means like I agree or I support this. Well, the Hebrew word emuna, faith, it means to support or trust. And when I say support, Hebrew is a very concrete language. It is, it is completely rooted in the physical embodied world. Whereas our English is very abstract. So when when I say that the Hebrew word for faith in muna means support, like literally, it means like a support holding a building up, like literally a pillar, right? Structurally sound structurally.

1:50:15 Sound like completely reliable. Trustworthy and willing to trust. This is the faith we need in God to even embark on the journey. We need to be able to trust Him and be trusted by him. We need to support Him and be supported by Him. So faith is the first critical step. Faith. Automatically true faith. Automatically. Leads to true repentance and this is like hold on one second because. That's one of those things that I feel like if it's going to be employed, we have to, we have to dive into that. When you say true faith, explain to me what the mark is of true faith.

1:50:59 Yeah. And this Mormons will like to hear this, but it's we can go. Deeper than we usually go as Mormons, we just argue with Protestants over what faith is. But but there's some beauty here in the ancient Hebrew and in the Mormon restoration of that ancient thought, true faith is necessarily embodied like of necessity, literally the Hebrew word for faith in muna means to support, to hold up when when I forgot who was holding up Moses arms during the battle with the Israelites. The word is a muna. Well, the word is a muna faith. They were literally. Holding up his. Arms true faith is embodied, it is active. The entire Hebrew language is active, not passive and not abstract.

1:51:48 So faith without faithfulness is non existent When when James says that? When James the brother of Jesus says faith without works is dead. Like that's an OK English translation, but when he says dead, he does not mean that. Well, faith can exist without works, but it's like this empty husk of a thing. He literally means faith is illogical without works. It is a logical contradiction. Faith and faithfulness are important, so. So if you're going to have true faith. You were going to follow through. To maintain the covenant relationship because, you know, because it's what's best for the covenant, it's what's best for you, your fellow man and God.

1:52:37 To create the most harmony, the most joy to accomplish God's perfect plan. Any questions or ideas? Oh, so I guess if we were to whittle this down, we could say that that true. Faith should motivate action. It should be. It should be tangible. You should see it. It's not. It's not just an ethereal. Belief. Somewhere it's it's a it's a motivating factor that leads us to do things. It it literally it can't exist the the idea. Of faith being, intellectual, ascent, meaning, I confess Jesus is my Lord. That is like it has no foundation on the actual ancient meaning and understanding and teaching of that word.

1:53:24 From the beginning, faith was active again, faith. Faith is faithfulness. It it's illogical to say otherwise. So cool. I'm glad we glad we hammered that one home. And the entire Hebrew language is active and concrete, like I said. So what do you expect repentance is going to be? It's going to be similar. The Hebrew word for repentance is shove or in in more modern Hebrew teshuva. But in the Bible it's shove and repentance literally means to turn or return. So interestingly the word for righteousness, sedek, means to walk along, walk on the path. The literal meaning of the word well shove repentance is to turn back and walk the right way on that path. It's to be righteous.

1:54:20 You know. When, when you when you are repenting, when you are engaging in shove, you are turning to God and turning to your fellow man. You can't have a broken heart for God but have a hard heart for your fellow man. That doesn't even make any sense. This, this is a complete reorientation of how your heart works. And this right here of our, out of our whole discussion, repentance is like the, the utter part of this entire issue of everything we've discussed. Repentance is kind of like the focal point of this whole thing. And like I said, it's, it's kind of the thing that that keeps the doctrine of Christ meaningful and keeps it going in your life.

1:55:01 So repentance is described 4 main ways in the Scriptures. And I have several scriptures cited, but I'm not going to read, you know, I don't need to do that. First, it's, it's defined as laying oneself on the altar, which we've sort of went over on the doctrine of Christ map. 2nd, it's to have a broken heart, same thing. Third, a soft or softened heart, same thing. And a circumcised heart, they all mean the same thing. And think about a circumcised heart. When you are circumcised, that which is most vulnerable is exposed. That's exactly what repentance is calling you to do, to become completely vulnerable to God and man. Not like in the way of like physical danger vulnerable, but I mean completely open and willing to reciprocate true interpersonal I thou relationship. This is what true repentance is and this is how it's defined in the scriptures every time.

1:56:05 So here is the we utterly misunderstand repentance and that is exactly why Zion and the Kingdom of God are not here yet. Because in our mind, we do it very transactionally, just like we do most things. It's well, I kind of made some mistakes today. I guess I'll go hit my knees and go down the list of what I did wrong. And you know, that is not repentance. That is repentance is a state of being. It is to have your heart oriented so that you're completely willing to receive and be received by God and man and here's why most people I don't I'm I venture. To guess that most. People have never.

1:56:46 Truly repented on this. Earth. It's because it's freaking horrifying. To become fully vulnerable to another being is absolutely terrifying. And it's because, and here's why. Because it hurts Because we've all this happens, we, we grow up with a soft heart when we're infants and toddlers, we have a soft heart. But what happens in mortality and probably in the pre existence, maybe to some degree, what happens, we get hurt, we we show vulnerability and we have these because of that, we have these deep wounds. Like think about your worst times at your home life or in grade school, man, you know, we all, I hate to use like a liberal buzzword, but we all have trauma. And this is, This is why repentance is really difficult, especially for men, because we like to be tough. We like to be cool.

1:57:37 We have fear of missing out. You know, we want people to think we're like these rigid and and rough dudes. That's why it definitely gets in the way. Yep, Yep. The ego is the natural. Man, dog, and that's what prevents. Repentance, you know, In fact, I'm not afraid to say it. Probably 1 of the reasons I grew, I've only had a beard for a year. Probably one of the reasons I grew it was to like sort of amplify that masculine, that, that masculine appearance I desire, you know, like it's, it's that kind of self honesty that is absolutely necessary for true repentance. Bitter self honesty. Like, let me give you a personal example, classic example.

1:58:21 My kid spills milk it, it kind of pisses me off. So I kind of get at him, get on him for it. Well. That's that's the. Reason you even get. Mad when that happens is because. You truly deep down, see your child as a means to meeting your own daily agenda. And when they throw a curveball on that daily agenda, oh great, now I got to clean up the spill. It pisses you off because you see them as a means to an end instead of an end in and of themselves. And I hope that hits home right now for the listener. That is the brutal self honesty we all need because we all truly deep down to to a degree view other beings that means to an end.

1:59:04 And we we are not vulnerable with them. We're not willing to truly give ourselves and reveal ourselves to them. And this is like literally what's required for Zion man. What's the definition of Zion? People of 1 heart and one mind, one heart that's. More than just hey, we're all farming together, and we have. We're checking the goals off the it's to be of 1 heart, one mind is like so much different than just outwardly working for the same 'cause you know, I, I think when we talk about unity, though, we have to be kind of careful. Here, right, 'cause I think of a time in Scripture where God was not happy with unity. Sure. Yeah, yes, if we look at the tower.

1:59:46 Of Babel, right? What's what's, What's the Lord say? Well, they're one and nothing will be kept from them. So he scatters them. So unity for unity's sake, I think we have to be very careful as we approach that to make sure that we're we're unified around correct principles. Otherwise, we have the risk of a tremendous fall that that was shown to us in in Genesis with the Tower of Babel. And I completely agree. And here's my. Addition to that, true unity is not possible in wickedness. You cannot be wicked and be truly vulnerable and share in authentic abiding relationships like those people. They were doing unity the way we usually conceive of it. They had this outward goal of building a tower of maybe engaging in the the false temple or whatever, whatever the tower Babel was, whether it was a, a, a false temple or whatever, true, true covenant love cannot be experienced by in wickedness, by wicked people.

2:00:47 So I'm talking about the godly unity, the unity that he prescribes and influences us to participate in. So, yeah, thanks for bringing that up because I actually had thought of that and wanted to make sure I covered that because you're totally right. Unity for unity's stake is not not good. But you can't really have true interpersonal unity in wickedness. It's like it's I don't even think it's metaphysically possible because wickedness of necessity. Alienates people. From each other. It's it's selfish. It's all for you. You know what I mean? Wouldn't God saying that they're they are one? Wouldn't that signify an acknowledgement that they are one in their wickedness?

2:01:35 I They're one in their wickedness, but I I don't think that can. Possibly translate to an interpersonal abiding, loving unity. OK. I, I think it's more of like in this outward agenda. Like I said that the. Transactional way, the way we usually conceive of unity is actually the way that they were doing unity. That's, you know, this is the gospel according to Eleor. So I I got you. No, I'm tracking. Yeah. So again. Repentance is the linchpin of the whole thing. It like if we want Zion in the Kingdom of God, we have to be in a state of being, of repentance. Repentance is not a checklist, it is not purely outward. It is fully embodied, meaning there is a union of inward and outward and it is a turning of our hearts so that we can reciprocate true relationship with God and others and truly be honest with ourselves.

2:02:30 And, and let me just give you one example before we move on. Enos, like the doctrine of Christ is so perfectly portrayed in second Nephi and then just a few books later in the life of Enos. So Enos, the son of Jacob, the brother of Nephi, goes into the wilderness, so to speak. You know, literally and figuratively. He wrestles before the Lord. It's not a wrestle with. The Lord. It's a wrestle with his own heart to render it broken, and he succeeds. And what happens? The Spirit of God floods into him. He has a remission of sins. He enters into covenant relationship with God.

2:03:11 He enters the proverbial terrestrial world or holy place, or straight and narrow path, 2nd heaven, whatever you want to say. And he is now unified with God because he is repented. So Enos I love. The the example of Enos. Because in my opinion, it's the it's the perfect example. And let's talk about what happens when, when you truly repent. How do you know if you have truly repented? Well, it's all over the Book of Mormon and and unfortunately, in the church. At least we have completely lost. Sight of this beautiful doctrine, the doctrine or event of justification, redemption, being born again, or being baptized by fire, those are all like synonymous. Those are all the same thing.

2:04:04 They happen the moment you truly repent for the first time, and they will have, they will happen subsequently after that too. You know, there are degrees of this, but the very first time you do, it is like, that's the moment you enter the terrestrial world, right? The proverbial terrestrial world. So this, this event that happens, justification, redemption, being born again, baptism of fire, it is played out in Enos, one which we just described after true broken hearted repentance, vulnerable repentance. And then it is also played out in Mosiah 5, when King Benjamin's people are born again as a community, and then Mosiah 27.

2:04:51 When Alma is born again. After three days of hell, then Alma 19. When? King Lemoni is born again and he sings the song of redeeming love with with which is just a euphemism for this event justification, baptism of a fire, whatever you want to call it. And Kilaman 5, the Lamanite prison guards or whatever it is, are they're wicked, but they all have this born again to experience together. And, and, and Nephi and Lehigh, the sons of Helaman, seem to be enwrapped in fire, in the fire of God. By the way, that is apocalyptic and liturgical, that whole sequence. Helaman five.

2:05:35 Well, well, I hope I'm making a connection. There is a clear connection between what apocalyptic liturgy is teaching us. Or there's a clear connection between apocalyptic liturgy and the baptism of fire and the the ascent to the terrestrial world and then the celestial world, the literal inward ascent that we experience. And where else? Oh, in John 3, Christ says. We need to be born. Again and then DNC 20, the articles of the church when when the Church was formed, DNC 20 was like the the Constitution of the church. DNC 20. In DNC 20, the Lord says that the doctrines of justification by faith and sanctification by synthesis of faith and works is just and true.

2:06:25 So justification and sanctification are part of the doctrine of Christ. They're Protestant terms. The Book of Mormon never uses the term justification to describe this event we're talking about. It uses the term redemption, born again or baptized in fire but but but this event is when the spirit of. God takes up a. Boat in you and literally intertwines with your spirit. You guys share you when you are born again when you were justified. You share a literal life force with God. Remember the beginning of our discussion. There's a reason why we had to touch on the everlasting covenant. Their spirits proceed forth from their immediate presence to fill the immensity of space.

2:07:07 You are born again when you repent sufficiently, when you open your heart for the first time and allow that spirit to take up abode in you and intertwine with your spirit and in the Greek New Testament, the word for life, Zoe, the Greek New Testament talks about how. God gives us life. When we're in covenant unity with him, the word for life is Zoe, and it is. Zoe is literally life force. It is not just some abstract notion of life, it is a metaphysical reality. When you are born again, the literal energy of God takes up abode in you, and that's when you begin the process of sanctification.

2:07:51 There's a yes. Justification is an event. That's when you enter the gate, as Nephi would say, explaining Lehi's vision. That's when you enter the gate to the terrestrial world. Sanctification is what gets you from the terrestrial world to the celestial to be at one with God. So let's talk about sanctification. And by the way, to be sanctified, you got to stay in the state of faith and repentance. You can't stop doing that throughout this whole process. Your heart has to be opened continually. But sanctification is when, when that Spirit of God has taken up abode in you, it begins to quicken your spirit. Glory is a real thing.

2:08:35 Like, like God is full of energy, right? He is bright and burning. That guy has a lot of energy, so to speak, a lot of glory, and sanctification is the process of that glory. Which is taking up. Abode in you, glorifying your own spirit until you are exalted. Gotcha. So justification and sanctification. There, there's a really good. Analogy for it like a light bulb. So picture a action or a light switch. I mean picture a light switch and then a dimmer switch right next to it. If the light switch is off, the dimmer switch. Doesn't even work. You can't turn the light up or down. Justification is is the switching on of the light and then sanctification is the sliding of the dimmer from low to high.

2:09:28 As as we read earlier, the Lord quickens us until the perfect day, His light quickens us until the perfect day. So, so justification and sanctification take us to exaltation and repentance is absolutely necessary for this. Hey, let's, let's talk about repentance here for a minute, because I, I want to make sure I'm. Understanding correctly here on this, yeah. Are are you saying that a state of? Daily Repentance. Is necessary. I'm saying you. Know what Joseph Smith said? Joseph Smith said that daily. Daily transgressing. And transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God. Yes.

2:10:15 So you know, you know what I do personally? I don't think it's a sin in and of itself to repent daily like verbally 'cause I I repent daily verbally to God in prayer. But here's the problem when that's that is as far as it goes, because in truth, true repentance is when you constantly keep your heart open to the Spirit of God so that you can yield to that light in thought, word and deed. When you're when the Spirit of God has taken up a Boden to you after true repentance, it is going to be influencing you and thought word indeed at all times. True repentance is contingent upon you doing your best to yield to that and then correcting yourself when when when you don't do that if. You will, because remember God.

2:11:04 Says God is merciful and there's a grace period, but he says my spirit will not always strive with man so true repentance is a. Is a condition of your heart. And there are metaphysical implications. The energy or life force of God stays with you when you are in a state of repentance. And amazingly, King Benjamin teaches us that when we are in the state, when we have the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of God, when we are in covenant relationship with them, we retain a remission of our sins. So the crazy implication of that is when we stay in a state of repentance, which necessitates being continually sanctified because you can only go forward or backward.

2:11:51 You, you can't. There's no such thing as as being still or on the fence when you are continually striving to go forward. Even there are obviously always minor setbacks because we're we're weak and we're fallen. But oh, I can't remember where I was going with that. But when? When you were. Continually. Striving on that path, that Spirit of God is going to continually glorify you and sanctify you. So again, repentance is a state of being. It's a condition of your heart and there are real spiritual implications to that condition. Oh, and here's what I was going to say. King Benjamin teaches us that we we retain the remission of our sins. What does that mean, dude?

2:12:35 It means we're perfect. We are sin free if we remain in a state of repentance in in a way, you know, we're not perfect in the same way that Jesus is. We're not fully exalted, but but we are sin free. And so something I try to do every single morning is do the daily sacrifice and lay my heart on the altar in that morning prayer. Because if I'm doing my best to render my heart broken to God first thing in the morning, which involves true honesty and vulnerability, then that that means that I will have a greater chance of success throughout the rest of the day. So any other any. Thoughts on that or questions?

2:13:16 Yeah, it it doesn't necessarily. Tell me how it squares with. Joseph's comment. But I'm willing to sit with it for a while and see see what I come up with. Well, which comment the comment on you shouldn't trifle with. Daily repentance. Yeah, you shouldn't trifle with daily daily transgression. And daily, daily repentance isn't isn't what God is after is what Joseph is. And so I I tend to think that at some. Point. We should be able to say, OK, you know what, I've, I've repented of this maybe a couple of times, OK, and I've overcome this and I've put it behind us. So and then move on to the next thing, right?

2:13:58 I, I think there has to be a progression of sorts. As you said, you can't really stay static, right? So if you're not overcoming those things, I guess my fear in is that looking at that as it. Was presented and maybe it's. Just me and I'm misunderstanding which I'm totally down for this idea of as long as you're in that. In that place. Of constant it would kind of serve like well, I almost need to screw up in order to stay in this constant state of repentance no, I think there's I think there's been a misunderstanding OK because if. You are constantly. Open to God you will.

2:14:39 Be yielding to his light, which will cause you to increase in righteousness and glory. Joseph's statement actually vindicates what I'm saying. It, it what it does? Is it it It's the opposite, is what we usually do. We're not. Truly becoming we're. Not truly opening our heart to God. We like we do, we do this checklist repentance and it's the same old thing day in and day out. That's what Joseph is is railing against. He's actually vindicating what I'm saying. You should your heart needs to be open and vulnerable to God such that you were in covenant relationship with him so that he is constantly influencing you in thought word indeed, or you're allowing him to you're allowing him to influence you in thought word indeed. And you were constantly overcoming your sin and and being perfected that that's what sanctification is. That's what I'm getting at.

2:15:29 So I'm I'm definitely not saying that you should remain static. I'm saying the the exact opposite. OK, All right. Yeah. Any other thoughts on that? Nope, I think we're good. OK, so this leads us to I, I guess I just want to touch on ritualizing real quick. When you, when you learn how to be open hearted or broken hearted as a state of being, you're able to like make space for a lot of things. And that includes that includes relationships with others to truly make space for people to, to again, getting back to that I thou relationship, I talked at the beginning of I talked about at the beginning of our discussion, but also the rituals, man, we talked about the the three-part temple ascent. Right when you are broken hearted, you are able to make space such that as you are ritualizing, you are becoming because when you are in that, when you are in that state of broken heartedness, you're able to be aware of what the rituals are trying to teach you and and life takes on a whole new meaning.

2:16:40 And I'm not just talking about the rituals of salvation, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost all the way up to the second anointing. Yes, those are the most beautiful rituals we participate in. I'm talking about every ritual though. When when you come into a broken heart when you choose into a broken heart and covenant relationship with God life. Just becomes so. Much more beautiful washing the dishes becomes a very edifying ritual, mowing the lawn because they all teach the patterns of eternity. Dude, the sacrament of marriage, one of the most powerful rituals we have the privilege of participating in it.

2:17:22 It teaches so much about eternal reality. So that's that's a really cool aspect about becoming a repentant person is the these ordinances that we hold so dearly are able to help you make those inward changes are able to help you become right and now find. I guess the final point I want. To make is talking about covenant relationships and I thou encounters again or just interpersonal relationships. So the whole goal of of this, of why we're here even is to see and know each other and God as we truly are, to encounter one another.

2:18:09 As ends in and of. Ourselves not as a means to an end or a means to be justified somehow. We we want justification from God, but we often look for it in man is what I'm trying to say, which is transactional and not interpersonal and becoming repentant. Embodying the doctrine. Of Christ embodying the rituals teaches us how to freely give, give ourselves to God and give ourselves to one another such that Zion in the Kingdom of God can emerge. Because if we're doing, we've tried doing the outward to usher and Zion, the Kingdom of God, and it's never worked because we haven't been living the inward, the doctrine of Christ. So I guess at the whole heart of this I, I said repentance was at the whole heart of this.

2:18:57 And that's true. But it's because repentance has to do with our relationships with God and our fellow man. So I guess. That. Sums up my presentation and I I just want to say that Zion and the Kingdom of God cannot be ushered. In unless we embody the doctrine of. Christ, which you know, comprehends all doctrines, including. Celestial marriage and. Consecration too, but we really have to learn faith and repentance first. And two, like we need another great awakening and Mormonism, another revolution. Because here's what happens when, when these Mormon covenant bodies begin to truly live the doctrine of Christ and repent and enter into covenant unity with God and each other, they start receiving gifts of the Spirit like crazy.

2:19:50 They start receiving angels. They see the literal Jesus Christ. This is what the city of Enoch did. They lived, they successfully lived these doctrines and they thwarted every effort of Satan to derail them from that through our own inherent selfishness and whatever else. So the whole point is we are all longing for Zion and the Kingdom of God in our day. And I testify. That if we lived the doctrine of Christ right now in our congregations, if we if tonight or or today, whatever time it is when you're listening to this, if you wrestle before God to render your heart broken such that his Spirit can flow into it and then you teach your family how to do you. You help your family to do the.

2:20:38 Same and and then, you know, you help your congregation to do the same and so on that that influence will cascade and that is how Zion and the Kingdom of God are ushered forth. So that's that's my whole spiel. I guess you could say that's this is the thing I'm. Most passionate about. Gotcha. OK, so now I I got one question that I. I want to ask and the, the and again, nothing you said there necessarily. I disagree with at all. Right, I think that we do need a deeper, more personal relationship with deity. It's what Mormonism promises, right?

2:21:21 However, it's a bold claim when you say this is the reason we didn't get Zion. So I'm going to hold you to that now. 100% if this. If this is what we're missing. And Joseph's whole thrust was to get us there. Yeah. Why didn't Joseph illuminate these more clearly at the beginning? He did, bro. He was always they They understood. This a lot better than we do today. They, they, they talked about the gospel of repentance all the time and they inherently knew what justification and sanctification meant. They knew about this metaphysical reality. And and I know that because it's a literally in our scripture and it, this is like verifiable fact in the I was just having this conversation with my wife. Like literally, I get what you mean. How come Joseph didn't say this?

2:22:11 The truth is he did all the time. They didn't need to explain it this way because they knew they knew what was entailed in the terminology they were using. And we've lost sight of that. And here's why. Because the mainstream church and the fundamentalist sex somehow just became very. Rooted in tradition. And not in becoming and I and I, and, and so I promise you, I can show you Joseph did teach this very thing. He lived and he taught it when whenever you hear him mention the gospel of repentance, that's what the doctrine of Christ is, the gospel of repentance of being born again and then yielding that spirit until you're received into the presence of God, until you receive your second comforter.

2:22:59 And you know what I mean? Like that's the whole plan, man, that and, and then if a people do this, Zion will emerge. And it is a bold claim. And I would, I would like die defending that claim. The doctrine of Christ is at the heart of everything and repentance is at the heart of the doctrine of Christ And, and the, the outward rituals, the embodied life is super critical to that too. So again, if anybody thinks I've sounded like a Protestant, I, I'm just telling you like I am, I am not Protestant in any way, shape or form. I hold strongly to the Hebraic view and the Mormon view of scripture what Joseph Smith taught. Gotcha.

2:23:39 OK, fair enough. No, dude, I think that. Yeah, that that pretty much answers the questions. We went to some deep waters, my man. Yeah, we did. I hope. I hope people are OK treading water out there. I like it. I'm here for it. I dig these kind of conversations. So it's all. Good. Me too, man. Well dude, that was awesome. Anything else you want to hit on? No, I just, I pray to God Almighty. That Zion is Zion emerges in my day. I I'll, I'll say this, I'll say. This and I hope, the Spirit. Hits you or hit hits the listener. I mean, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the baptism of fire as it pertains to God and as it pertains to connecting with a fellow mortal as well, is a true doctrine.

2:24:27 I know it is a real experience. I, I will say that I'd like to say I know my savior, my second comforter. I do know him to a degree. What I know is the first comforter, but that that is an amazing spiritual gift in and of itself. So this is what we need. We need. To repent. Such that we receive the Spirit of God and enter the proverbial terrestrial world or or whatever you want to call it. And then we need to ascend beyond that. We need to yield to that spirit increase in that covenant relationship participation until we find ourselves at the throne like the apocalyptic prophets. So that's my message.

2:25:09 We we can do it right now like the Mormon, the different Mormon denominations can do this right now. There could be a congregation in the next few weeks that have the visitation of angels during their sacrament meeting. If the individuals, families, the the individuals and families of that congregation did this, they gave their hearts to God. I'm telling you, this is the answer. This is what we need. And I again, I would die preaching this and I mean that with all my heart. So that's, that is my last will and testament. Awesome, beautiful, good stuff. Matt, do you got any notes?

2:25:50 Or anything you can send me on this so I can maybe stick them in the show notes? Yeah, I'll send you my entire outline. Let me just. Let me just touch it up a little bit. Yeah, touch it up. You got, you got about two weeks, so. Because I won't release this until a week from Saturday, so you should be good. OK, brother. Awesome. Stick around for 5 minutes, all right? You bet. All right. Bye everybody. The.