Episode #19 Priesthood, Priesthood Keys & Presidency W/ Michael Ness

0:04 One of the greatest points of contention between Mormons of all different groups has always been who's in charge and who has the keys now to get that proper answer to that question, there's a lot of principles that need to be understood first on this episode. Michael Nest comes back on the podcast to discuss that very topic. We do a deep dive into priesthood, priesthood keys, and presidency as we compare and contrast. Those three topics. I think you'll find that certain assumptions. We may have made about these topics. Might be incomplete as we look at what former prophets Apostles and scriptures have said about these things. That's next on this edition of the Mormon Renegade podcast. So, I just want to take a moment to thank you. The Listener, when I started this podcast I wasn't sure if anyone would really listen.

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3:04 Welcome back to the Mormon Renegade podcast as always you can get ahold of me either by email at Mormon Renegade at gmail.com. You can also get a hold of me on Instagram and Twitter and getter under the handle. Mormon Renegade. Also we have a website up and that's Mormon Renegade.com, so go check that out. All right. Well, I'm back again here on the podcast. With, with someone, I absolutely love talking with Michael Ness. He's been on the show a time or two before, but I always enjoy his insight and I feel like he's always got something really interesting to say.

3:45 So dude, Michael. Thanks for coming back on, man. Oh, you're welcome. And thank you so much for that introduction. I appreciate being here. Well, good deal. So, When we had talked before you wanted to talk about presiding and keys, right? Yeah I'd say so it's a way to put it it is there a back story here that you want to share on why this was coming coming to you? You know, I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but I remember very clearly. Yeah, you, and I had talked and had a conversation about what was going on here in Missouri.

4:30 And the next day I got to work, you know? And I just remember, we're putting in post beams for a deck and it just hit me this topic. I said, I know what I need to get on the show again, talk about and so I sent you a text saying, I like to talk about Using the priesthood and keys in the preseason being distinct from presidency in the priesthood. Right? Is that kind of where? So you sent me kind of an outline here. And yes, I'm going to read this real quick and then I want you to comment on it a little bit and it says, I will give you a key that will never rust.

5:15 If you will stay with the majority of The Twelve Apostles and the records of the church, you will never be led astray. Now that's quoted from the young woman's journal in December of 2006. Page 5 43. Also see the Ensign. June 94. Page 15. What do you make of that statement? Oh, dude, that's one of the ones that I first came across. You know, the church uses that one really strong as a as an indication that If you just follow the Brethren or in the church, you know, the Quorum of The Twelve that just follow them, they're being led by the spirit no matter what. This is a key, you know, stay with the church right? Because for a long time.

6:03 Yeah. At least since Nabu the mainstream corporate Church, they haven't had any split sir or deviations or anything in the corm has been, you know, if not United on everything, you know, personality-wise, you know, more or less. The direction at any given time that Quorum has as not split, right? And so that's the idea is just, you know, if you're dissatisfied with the Brethren, the stay with the stay with the church, So I'm going to share a story here real quick that just came out today, interesting. I read it this morning when I got to work and it made my blood boil to be right, honest with you. But I think this ties back into this statement. Okay, because I don't.

6:53 I don't necessarily agree with that statement or do I we can talk about that in a minute but I'm going to tell you why. I don't agree with it. Is the story that came out of Arizona, it was an AP news article, and it's about a family that lives in Arizona and the dad was sexually molesting his daughters. He goes in and he confesses to his Bishop. The bishop. Instead of saying stop right there, bring your wife in and then getting the wife and the daughters to safety.

7:41 He doesn't do that instead, he does exactly what the handbook tells him to do. Which is to call the church attorneys. The helpline is called and the church attorneys. Tell him you're under no obligation to tell, talk to the authorities or anything else. Long story short, Those girls are left in that home for another seven years. Oh, jeez. Now. When, when I think about that story and I think about that statement, this is what happens when you sell your agency down the river.

8:22 Right? When you don't question, when you ought to question, when you take, you know, when you just blindly follow, And I found it interesting that that story came out. Just today this morning, right? Before you, and I do the podcast, you can't make this up. I mean, the fact that that comes out when we're doing this show this episode, I find absolutely amazing. I think he put it really well regarding agency and there's another statement that goes hand-in-hand with this. It's also used, you know, which is a quote from President Woodrow saying that the Lord would never suffer the president of the church to lead the people astray.

9:08 And I wish I'd gone back to try to find more on when that kind of rhetoric and that kind of speak began to be introduced. I've seen that from actually before, before the 1890, or 1891 statement from alleged obscene that Unfortunately, from Joseph F Smith in the 1880s and the Journal of discourses. And I believe The first person to ever say so but it was qualified was Brigham Young. And if I'm not mistaken, Brigham said, if the people are righteous, the Lord will never suffer the president of the church to lead them astray and so it was qualified. But then over time it becomes this, this monster that takes away your agency and your accountability because you just passed you passed that your ability to make those decisions and most judgments up the the chain. Speak.

10:03 Yeah. No, I think there's some definite problems with that idea of just no matter what happens, you stay with the church, look the Lord. The Lord definitely gave us a priesthood structure, but he didn't give us that structure to prevent us from being our own moral agents, in certain scenarios, right? And when you take all the quotes or ideas pertain to this subject and compare them against each other, you can actually find several others. Brigham, Young and others who say, what a disaster it would be for this people to be led astray by one man, right? If you know, and it would be better for people to be led by the revelations of God to know if you know if he was led by the spirit or not right?

10:49 You know John Taylor talked about DNC 107 at least one instance that I'm aware of where he said that if your church authorities are not living up to the laws given to us, we have the right to remove them from Office India. See. 107 has those bylaws why? If it was truly a key that would never rust that the majority, you know was lead you, you know, it's a to safety Lynn and always be true. Then why would the why were those outlines given right there? You know, the judge the president of the church, the next zero sense. It's not consistent with the scripture, right? And the other thing is that Again, I go back to Joseph.

11:34 Never asked anybody just to surrender their will to him, never right. He always pointed towards the Savior, right? You go. And in many ways, Joseph was, perhaps the most egalitarian leader we've ever seen. As far as a religion, right? I mean, this was a guy who wasn't about hoarding power. This was a guy who was about sharing that power. One thing, I remember reading was his ability to just grab people off the street to form a quorum so to speak, right? And we've talked about before in some of those horns, the Council of 50 he made. Sure non-mormons were just as involved as Mormons And now I was I was wondering about this kind of a thing you today or yesterday as well as if you compared his or the church you know, under Joseph to other other churches of the time. It makes me wonder how common the term or title president was Versus other titles, you know, like obviously the Catholics have the pope for examples.

12:44 But what I mean is that the president by itself as a term seems to denote a more libertarian or American perspective, you know of that you're elected? That you're sustained in your position that you're a steward of a church that's actually Christ, the Lord's, that's not your church. Right, I'll talk to me. Break in. Thank you. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know how that Stacks out against other churches of his day assistant. This is the thought that I was thinking but not statement about the key that will never rust. Yeah, the original source for that is allegedly, the young woman's journal and December of 1906 and it's a attributed to a guy named William g Nelson.

13:32 You know, and I did a really brief search on William g Nelson, and all that came up clothes rustling, no sentence. So yeah, so group Really helped me out there was a, what the search results. So you've never heard of them, I was gonna say you couldn't find anything at all on William g Nelson. I didn't make it, I didn't do that. I didn't really do a whole lot of diligent study on that one, but what? One of the websites on this quote, you know, the kind of was done bunking at a little amazed, they said that there wasn't even a publication for the old woman's journal in that month of December. The last one for that year was September. And so there's even a question Question of, that's a valid source and yet it's been quoted in church periodicals ever since it's also a little sketchy because it's a 50. It's a 50 year old.

14:24 That's a quote that arises 50 years. After Joseph Smith as already died. Right around the same time that was church is dealing with the temple wall case, okay? Here in Missouri and I was looking into that a little bit and it looks like the original ruling for the temple. La case was that the Supreme Court actually ruled that the reorganized church was the legal and spiritual successor, to Joseph Smith to church. And so I could totally see a statement like this. Being fabricated and presented as a find afterwards showing. Oh Joseph said the follow the majority of the 12 because that's what happened in all the is Brigham Young in the majority of the twelve went West. And you know, you had a few others in the Quorum of The Twelve who did not like William Smith, who was James J Strang and lime and white who went off by himself. And they were both members of the Quorum of The Twelve, but the majority fall of Brigham So that's what I see. Historically in this, this quote, that appeared is a harkening back to so when the are LDS church broke off from from the other form of the 12, I think that just stands to reason.

15:40 Well and I think it's suspect when when you're starting to see things that question the sources, right? I mean, when you find something online that says, hey in 1906, the young woman's Journal, wasn't even around. Eight and you can't find anything of any significance on, you know, a guy named William g Nelson. How do we know that that one? He even existed right to is this, you know, is this really coming from somebody's father, right? Who's just expressing a view? Look, you and I can talk all day long on this podcast and in our homes about things that we feel or ideas that we have.

16:24 But that doesn't make those ideas doctor. No, and it is. This haven't taught Joseph. Even if it was just remembered by the 12, when I think it probably should have been. Right. You know, you know, that something like that was important because when David Hyrum Smith and Joseph Smith, a third or coming out to Utah under Brigham Young, and John Taylor, they could have slapped him with us in the face with that kind of stuff, you know, your father taught this, you know, or, you know, or Wilford Woodruff when the, you know, when that hearing Actually going on, you know, in the temple, walk case, why wasn't this kind of stuff presented, you know, long before 1906, this was my question, there's a, what I do now. I think you'd have to look at the history of Joseph Smith to. I think, I can't remember how many many members of The Twelve apostatize during the curtain, period. Do you remember off the top of your head? No, not of.

17:20 Not an exact figure. I know. It was a loft, though. I knew it was a fox. Only the British mission. Ian, the British Mission from The Twelve Apostles, pretty much provided the temporal and spiritual salvation of the church at that point, right? And so you get the feeling, it was a lot, right? So if if this was something that was actually uttered by Joseph Smith, I would be surprised considering all of the apostasy that he'd seen happen. Sure? Yeah, I'm sure that was a huge. That was a huge trial for him to us. Even with a we read that in the Liberty Jail stuff, you know that's right after the curtain boss to see and now he's in jail and he's just feeling low everyone except for his very closest friends and family have deserted them. Yeah yeah that point yeah absolutely so yeah I find And I'm glad you included it because I looked at it before time or to myself, and it's really hard to substantiate that quote, right? I think it is and I think it's an even harder to substantiate it.

18:32 As I can Everlasting, rule of thumb that, like, all the way back into this day. After all the changes that have happened that if you just sustained the majority of the 12, you'll be fine when a prophecy like that. If it's a valid thing or if it's a, you know, To me that that was reflective of, particularly the Nauvoo circumstances after the martyrdom, where people would have remembered. Oh, He says to follow the 12. Let's follow Brigham Young. You know, right? Where it's we're very much is a descriptor of that exact moment. I could see that being a key relative to that instance. You know because Joseph was worried about what would happen after he died at that moment.

19:13 But to say that that's an everlasting rule of thumb for or you know, with the church I have an issue with it because it does, as you say, the passes the buck of agency. All Lay down the line. And what is the fruits of that? If you're a bishop learning, that somebody's molesting their daughters and you toe the company line and just call that help number to curtain and McConkey. Yeah, it's not and it's it's it really doesn't. I was raised in the church. So this this is coming from a very interesting place for me. To an extent.

19:58 I can say, yes. You're putting your face. In in something that you were raised in when you if you can, if you if you follow this to ski the so this alleged key. But at the same time with a growth that I've seen in myself, once I've come to challenge it, it's that kind of faith that you're putting in, your leaders is not near the kind of faith that you're putting in the, your ability to receive the spirit of Revelation through the power of the Holy Ghost, you're not going to grow near as much without, you know, that that testimony that you get. Putting that little face and when God has to give you, it's a nice night and day to me in my own experience. The growth that I've received over the last four years of cattle, my life of challenging this Paradigm is exponential, I think?

20:47 Yeah. And I think the other thing is that, if the whole point of us being here on Earth, according to, to Mormon Doctrine, is to develop the type of Spiritual character needing. To be. So that one day we can be as God is surrendering your agency. To somebody else who's just as mortal as we are. Doesn't seem to fit that Paradigm real. Well, right doesn't seem to notice it. It would be a lot like me saying, you know, I really want to play pro football and I think the best way to do it is drink beer and eat pizza all day. It kind of seems like the antithesis of the work you need to put in to get to that point.

21:37 Do you like psychology at all? Yeah, well bit there's a there's a psychologist. I might butcher. His name is one of the Australian ones, you know, he He was a contemporary of Freud, Carl Jung, or you. He said something. He said something interesting to me is he said, if there is no if there is no true morality, if there is an, if there is internal and external compulsion, you know, because if you're externally, forcing someone and compelling someone to make a choice, there's no morality and what they do because it's under duress. But even if there's an internal, Compulsion for them to do or not to do something based on a society's expectation, there's not true morality based on, you know, or accountability in their decision. So going back to agency again, you know, with that kind of with the way that the church, the church teaches for the gospel I should say the gospel teaches, the importance of agency, even to the to the degree that I've gone over to rob you of your agency.

22:41 He would cease to be God. Yeah. But then to have the internal locus of control or of compulsion on people, individually that you can't go. You can't even question this this quote about the 12 apostles and this key that will never us, you know, because because of your societies expectation, you're still robbing people of a moral opportunity to exercise a choice. Yeah and again, compulsion was was the adversaries plan, right? It's interesting to me that nothing's really new Under the Sun, right? We we are we are still having the same debate that we had in the council's of heaven, right?

23:23 Can man can man rule himself and if so can he be successful in doing it? And it is the same argument. It is the same argument. I'll just go back to a Joseph Smith said, you know, I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves, but I think that it's, it's based on the idea that you have to be in possession of correct principles before you can govern yourself truly, right? So, and that's the whole point of, you know, this episode, my opinion is talking about these principles versus personalities. People want to follow the president of the church or the president of the priesthood in The more the senior Apostle, I don't think anyone say for what I want to talk about on this because I want to get back to principal.

24:11 How about, how about, how to govern ourselves versus just towing a line, because the priest you need to sit at the feet of the priesthood and Obey, you know, and don't get me wrong, I believe in order, I believe, I believe in all the revelations that Joseph Smith gave, I believe in the order of the kingdom of God. I believe that those are things that you should sustain and not take, take for granted if you were to disagree. But at the same time, You know, one of them the gentleman I consider my life. I leader in the priest and he says if you're going to question the authority of the priesthood, go ahead and just don't be stupid about right. Right.

24:53 And I think you bring up. I think he brings up a good point there. Right? Is that what we're talking about? You know, being independent, if you will right being coming up with your own answers, At the same time when there when there is order there just like you would be careful on how you question your your employer. So you're going to be a little, a little, a little careful in how you you question. Somebody in authority and priesthood Authority, right? You're going to be careful on your you that so with you, go ahead, the idea, there's a lot of I think We'll talk about this more. I'm sure there's some disdain in some circles for the label of independent, especially in fundamentalism. The idea is that you need to be tied to someone with authority and I actually believe that.

25:53 I believe that you need to be Authority. Is this huge? You can't. I don't believe you can do anything without the authority of the priesthood. That's what keys Force presidency is also about. And so I reject for myself, the title of independent fundamentalist, based on the connotation it has. For example, there's some people from certain priest of lines through say that, you know, Lauren wooly said never to collect tithing, never to organize or hold meetings, and these people are now labeling themselves independent, but they don't even ordained people to the priesthood and they displease them plural, marriage, you know, but they all baptized and they won't perform other ordinances that I think are obviously kind of part of the plan. You know, if you're going to be doing, if you're going to be solemnizing, plural marriage as you might as well be baptizing your kids in conferring Oleg us the bottom. So I reject the title in a way of independent for myself and I don't consider my I don't I have a there's a structure the that I work with them but I like the idea of being Sovereign and I've being offered sovereignty and of offering such true sovereignty to other people.

27:02 Yeah. And that being connected in this way, you know, the kingdom of God is a family organization and so no one's truly, ideally independent of each other and without accountability. There's also trouble we're going to get into that too. And so the sovereignty is what we should be after. As individuals, you know, is what I have is my take on that. No, I I think that's a, that's a good point that has to be. As well. Is that having some sort of structure is? It's, it's a good way to have checks and balances on yourself, right? Because let's face it if we were left to our completely to our own devices, I'm sure mankind can find. Plenty of ways to screw stuff up, myself included, right? Uh sure.

27:56 Without someone to talk to, to bounce ideas, off of you, you really are kind of a Rudderless ship, right? Because even the scriptures, right? We may read the same scripture and come up with a couple different interpretations of it. And so being able to one, have someone there that you can bounce that off of and then to be humble enough to, to take what someone else has to say, and maybe together, you know, reason it out and and come to logical well-founded Agent. That's the whole point of the school of the prophets, I believe in in our church history was for that whole thing is, they were studying the scriptures. They were studying ways to teach the gospel in an environment like that where you're helping each other and reasoning with each other, as men reason with each other, getting the Holy Ghost.

28:52 And we're scripture was no longer a private interpretation as Peter says, in the New Testament, but it comes by prophecy came by the Holy Ghost as it was given to us. Yes, you know, I think that there's safety in that, you know, that that mode of operations there. Yeah, no, I do too. So we've talked about this quote, a little bit and the history of it, where it comes from. Where did you want to take that? Next, we can take it a little deeper on that, or we can leave it and move on. You know, I think it's your cousin, I enjoy listening to you. So Leslie, there's a very briefly.

29:33 Let's In 1902, another quote, about 24 years earlier than this first one came out as well. Saying the Lord would never suffer the majority of this people to be led away or deceived by Impostors. Nor would he allow the records of this church to fall into the hands of the enemy. So again it's a very late as a very light source, both of these are appearing right after you know, a few years after the temple. Walk case, this is after Brigham. Young has died. Is after John Taylor after Wilford, Woodruff. Even after Lorenzo Snow. You know, these statements come up and so So it's just it's really interesting time frame wise. It's they become highly suspect to me. Were you able to find anyone who took credit for that last? Last boat.

30:25 You mean a fulfilling it? Well no. I mean who would you finding evidence? Who said it? No. I think it was attributed to Joseph Smith though. But we don't know where where it was recorded at or in my notes in my notes here in front of me I don't have anything on that but except for that it's in the Improvement era 5th of January 1902. Okay. Yeah, the only reason I ask is I just wanted to get a feel for for where these quotes are coming. Because look, I'll also say that these dates are suspect to me as well because All right. Now I'm going to sound like I put on my tinfoil hat for a minute.

31:09 This is the birth of the Progressive Era, right? This early 1900s and the LDS church during this time, take a very pro-government stance but they're doing very guilty. They become very guilty of not obeying the covenants that they made at the manifesto and they kind of bend over backwards afterwards to kind of appease the government, right? And so all these quotes The fact they're coming in this same general time. The early 1900's really raises a red flag. For me like is this thing is this the era in which the church was really bending over backwards to, to become, you know, Full full Americans.

31:58 So to speak, right? Or let me, let me rephrase that to find to find you. No favor in the eyes of the government because also we know that like the word of wisdom was never asked on Temple recommend interview questions until prohibition comes around, and then it becomes a big deal, right? Yeah, I have a, I have a family story about that. Actually, you know, I don't remember what your grandfather. It is, but it's online eat the meals. My family. My grandma would always tell me first off is she has, she has a certificate in her possession from one of her grandfather's on work. If from the presidency of the church for working on the Salt Lake Temple, you know, as a granite worker or whatever. And later in life.

32:49 He always, he had been chewing tobacco and smoking a pipe since he was like seven years old. Okay? Like he came, he came over, he came over from Denmark in an 1866 or 1868 or something like that. And and he has started smoking and chewing tobacco since he was 77 years old and walking walking across the plains dude. And he gets, he's an old guy. Prohibition comes around and and he goes in, for example, recommend interview, you know, he's been going to the temple as whole life is a member of the church. And his stake president has bishop or whatever. You know, is really nervous because, you know, old man. Nielsen's been smoking a pipe and chewing tobacco, his whole life, and he goes through the interview. And he's worthy right up to this point. He says, now, now, brother, Nielsen, I have to tell you, You know, there's some there's been some changes and we can't give you your temple recommend because you're because of your use of tobacco.

33:51 He says, no I'm worth, you know? And they explain you know, he's like no, I'm worthy. It's a wait. But don't you smoke? Don't, you don't chew tobacco said I quit. Oh, when did you quit today? You know, and my grandmother gives that as a as an anecdote for faithfulness to the, to the, to the prophet. Over to the works of the word of the Lord and nearly killed them to quit. Apparently he quit cold turkey and it nearly killed him but he want he did not want to be deprived from the blessings of the temple but you're right. It did not. That was her not required if of the people until prohibition. And that man, I went his entire life up to that point in full fellowship and even even John Smith, Joseph Smith's brother should patriarch to the church.

34:43 Chew, Tobacco, his whole life, right, right? I don't ya. Again, the only reason I bring that up is just to to make try to make this connection that that this is the birth of the Progressive Era within the United States and when the federal government's really consolidating power. And and I think the church is feeling a certain amount of pressure for towing some lines and to make sure that no one steps out of out of line and these quotes seem too To Echo that statement. Yeah there's a I mean I'll put all my tinfoil hat to for a second. You know as you say I have a lot of reservations regarding that this time period as well because in 1898. So right before the turn of the century Wilford Woodruff ends up going to Bohemian Grove in California and he died owing on the way back from his trip there. And a lot of the people No.

35:43 You know, I've taught me and told me that the reason was because when he around the time that he issued the manifestos, he told the government, essentially that I will not, you know, I will discourage the use of or the doctrine of plural marriage in the church, we will break up the United orders so that we will not be economically independent from the American economy essentially. And I will not use my influence as president of the church to All the people to vote as a block. And after around that time, period George Q Cannon and some other separated, the church into Democrat and Republican parties to hear a Republican, or a Democrat. Now, which completely divided the people. Except for, I think there was one instance after that, where Wilford Woodruff did use his influence to have the people vote as a block and they called him to account for that and he died, you know, in the human growth or after his visit there, I think is what, that's what I've been told is that because he went Go on his promise and are not using his position as president of the church to exit to tell the people to vote. As a block.

36:52 He did that. And those people, those Elites, you know, the Illuminati, whatever here they called him in to account for that. And he ended up dying after that trip. And he was the interesting thing too, is Wilfred Woodruff was four years older than John Taylor was And so he was older, right? He was old, you know, he was making it and he always was saying stuff, like, I believe that John Taylor would have outlived me, you know, and stuff like that. So there's, it's just it's interesting to me, you know, that he ends up dying after that trip and that John Taylor died in hiding, you know, and all that, I don't think John Taylor was poison. I think it was just the circumstances, but it's just when you look into those details, that level, it's just, it's just Very disheartening, I think. But anyway.

37:43 Sorry, I took us down that road. I just found it interesting. No, I think it's I think it's all fair here. So what was your last question that I find out who that was attributed to? I don't. Yeah. You said you couldn't see anybody that that was a tribute to, which is fine because we've heard the all those quotes before, right? I mean, if if you sat in in any LDS Ward for any period of time, those Are statements that you hear the is you're right? You're 100%, right? The one of the one of the websites that I was looking at, I think it was called exploring Mormonism, or something like that, the guy States in analysis to that first, quote that if you stay with them or drawer, the majority of the 12 and the records of the church, you'll never be led astray. He makes kind of snarky comments on there, wouldn't that suppose that you would have access to the records of the church? If you can Directions of the church, but the fact of the matter is that by and large, the people are, the people are kept from the records of the church.

38:49 And if you want to go back to 1886, type stuff, you know, L Jon Udell, his journal and his records or they're not public, John Taylor's, diary from that top time period. They're not public, you know, these records. A lot of them are not public and so how can this truly be a key to us becomes the question? If we have no access to the records? Some of the church in these time periods. Allegedly worse or schisms are developing right? Right. Yeah that's a great point. I hadn't thought about that. I mean Yeah, absolutely. It it doesn't seem to make sense and it doesn't seem to follow even with what the promises.

39:30 Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. So from there, you have another prophecy here from John Taylor that I wanted to hit him. Sure. And he and John Taylor says, the people he saw had become quite indifferent to the counsel and advice of the authorities of the church and we're more interested in the accumulation of wealth, then they were in living their religion. So great was the destruction of life within the city that the blood ran down. The gutters of Salt Lake City. And the people were fighting amongst themselves until it became necessary to remove the church records across the Colorado River.

40:20 And you say here, that was given looks like by a sworn affidavit by Edward want. Yeah. He was a, the son of one of the Bishops I think of that John Taylor would, you know, there's a bishop the his father Bishop blunt was in Cedar City and he recalls hearing this From John Taylor, when John Taylor is staying in his dad's house, you know, in Cedar City and the problem with it kind of matches, but it a little bit with the records that idea of the records being important, but the date for is January, 9th, 1951. So that's also kind of late but I'm actually a big fan of this quote. I am I am too because it echoes a lot of a previous Vision that John tailored had why he was in st. George.

41:14 If I'm not mistaken where he saw just massive destruction across, not just Salt Lake, but the entire country and that's the one where there was like, or the people turn to cannibalism and, and he's a prayer circles and Missouri and stuff like that. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I think so too. It very much hearkens to that. That same idea there. It sounds like him. Right. Yeah, so that's a That's something that's interesting to see how that will be fulfilled. I think because I don't really know what what useful, you know, in a big way and I know this might be controversial and fundamentalism.

41:59 I don't know what use the Lord has for the church at the moment. I'm not saying that the people can't repent these Bobby setting people can. But I mean, as an institution I really wonder how and as an organisation, I wonder how they'll be usable to the Lord really. And, and so I, if there was destruction on this level and makes me wonder how those records are going to move to where they're going to be moved. And How the people that move them come back into the priesthood work? I have. Those are questions that I have. I don't really, I don't fully know how that's going to be fulfilled. Yeah, no I get what you're saying.

42:39 I do I guess this is why I don't want to see the LDS church go away, right? Because I feel like I'm going to say something that sounds horrible. The LDS church is a great gateway. Drug into Mormonism. Right? If you read in the sense of it's going to give you a base knowledge, right? And that's one of the things. I don't want to see go away as far as the Lord being able to preserve those records. Amongst that kind of Destruction. Look, if he could keep the plates safe, I'm sure. I'm sure he could do the same with the records but I think that's fair because I'm be really interesting to see how it plays out.

43:27 There's a hesitant to share one of the one of the yeah I think you do it. Do it Michael. There's a all the cool kids are doing it. Come on. Well now, I now want to look bad if I came in to pressure on this. There's a obvious because this is I don't know, this isn't noise about a lot but people who might look, you know, I'm not going to name names because if I name names, are big names in fundamentalism and so I'm not gonna if they don't, they know who they are and others why know who they are. Attending. On how close you want to look into the letter of Prophecy versus a spirit of Prophecy.

44:10 And I think that there's some leeway with certain things like that. There's a there's a partial fulfillment to this about the records being moved from the Colorado across the Colorado River already. And I'll, it's not popular, but I'm going to catch Flack. I think from some people probably that there's a, there was a in the a be in the 90s. There was a council member named Joe Joseph Blan. Thompson, who was removed from his office in the priesthood Council to a UB And I think he was third senior at the time that he you know, where there was some controversy there, there were allegations made against him of that. He was sexually abusive to some family members which to my knowledge.

45:01 Now most of the people in the auv have recanted that but the damage has, you know, has Stained his reputation even though that's been was coming. Yeah, the damage was done. Yeah right. And I know people who've known them. Learning that you be Council, who one of the council members are coming. Them. Privately said, yeah, that stuff wasn't true, but Joe was insubordinate and disobedient to the council's of the priesthood. So he was cut off, you know? Well there was Joe Thompson was one of the big pushes for tenable work in the AUB after after they decided that the the church you know, that the Lord will no longer.

45:46 Accept the offering at the hands of the LDS church because they gave black Africans, the priesthood night in the 1970s, therefore they should go and do Temple. Ordinances joke was a big proponent of that of doing the temple work. He was involved in that a lot and so it makes sense that he would have some sort of access to some of a UV Temple Records. Well, any case in the 90s In around 1994. So he started having Priests of meetings in Arizona. And at the home of a man named Jackson, 10 Jessa. And he's a, that's a Verona. Justice father. Okay, is Jackie Jackson.

46:27 Ted Jessup and Some of those may be Temple. Records were moved down to Arizona at that time, period, you know? And so, technically across the Colorado River as this Prophecy from John Taylor says, and we're in possession of some of the people there who are meeting with, with Joe Thompson in the 90s. And I don't know where the state of those are. Now, I've talked to someone several people. That's, that's the line of the priests to die. Either I claim, I'm not talk to some people. There and they say they don't know where they're at at the moment either. And so that's what you know, it's in the back of my mind, a big it on on that.

47:10 And frankly, I don't know what share, you know, completely on that. I didn't know but I don't. So but that is an interesting fulfillment. And I've heard that said by some people in the group with you, if you will that's filament there, it could definitely hold water. I mean, it sounds, yeah. I mean, I don't think that that's it. All out of The realm of possibility or or you know, it definitely has some veracity to it. So going down your notes here. This part, I really wanted to spend some time on because you have you have one call. You have a section here called one-man. Rule versus priesthood Council versus independent Patriarchs. So before we dive too deep in it, I want to take each one of those and Define them, okay?

48:01 For because I do have some some some members, some people who listen who aren't Mormons. So they're not going to understand this Earth so explain to me what the one-man rule is. And what I'm getting at with this with my definition of this is arbitrary rule where you one man? He oh it's a basically an extension and our interpretation of reading of Doctrine and Covenants section 137 2 verse 7, where one man had have that has the keys conferred upon him at a time. Well, in fundamentalism, we've seen historically a tendency for people who promote that position to exercise, arbitrary rule, you know, I'd and and I In fact, I've seen people who maintain that position.

48:49 Then turn around and say, regarding people who consider themselves independent fundamentalists that they become a law unto themselves and that you're a law unto yourself. You know, you have no claim on priesthood or anything because you're not tied in, right? And so that that idea of not being a law unto yourself, comes from Doctrine and Covenants section. 88 verse 35, where it says that which break the law and the bite is not By law. But seeketh to become a law unto itself and Willis to abide in sin and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be Sanctified by law, neither by Mercy, Justice nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain, filthy still. So, we'll come back to that.

49:31 So one-man rule, in my opinion, is arbitrary rule? No checks and balances you hold the keys of the priesthood. Follow the prophet. Yeah. In a big way. That's almost a position at the church takes. I was gonna say that. That sounds kind of like the LDS church, right? I mean and it's the same with the slds under. Rulon Jeff's of Warren Jeffs, you know and they had that split in 1986 2286. There was Centennial Park over this exact thing was one-man rule versus a council and that was their split you know Centennial Park from from Roy Johnson and Rulon Jeff's there and so priesthood Council to Define. That is where you have a body or a quorum of priesthood holders. Ideally, or generally with the same level of Authority or keys but one person is appointed to preside over the council and in my opinion for his I should just be that wall inform meetings. You have the ability to call the quorum to order for business safe.

50:40 You know, but some people take the take the title president almost to be in between one man ISM and priesthood Council. Where you follow the president of the Quorum versus independent Patriarchs and hold on one second, I want to talk about this this you know, president of the council so to speak. Sure, you have to look at the time frame in which these councils were established and council president. Right? And you have to look the word preside. If you look at the way it was used, In England, all the way up through the revolutionary period, even up to today during certain meetings of government or whatnot, that person who presides usually does nothing more than do, exactly what you said call to order and then keep things orderly. So, people aren't talking over each other. If you go, if you go back and I know it's kind of a funny comparison but if you go back to the Institutional convention that's what Washington's role was in presiding over that right?

51:54 He prevented from falling into melee so I agree with you on the priesthood Council thing that that that president was there to keep order period. Yeah, like and independent page, sharks, and you can go two ways with this or more, maybe? I don't know. Some people maintain a position of Independence and also that tie or claim, or ordination to certain Authority is not necessary but that principle on will justify them and so there you are. And you know, I'm not going to debate whether it does or not because maybe there are instances actually where you do the best you can. What you got?

52:38 But also there's a people who will receive an ordination from what they supposed to be legitimate, Authority holding the keys, and then they go off and become kind of a lone Island unto themselves to do their own thing and maybe the hermit's, maybe they don't trust the abuse of priestcraft, like there's a maybe a hundred reasons to justify it and at their understandable, but also you can take it to an extreme now where you're not really involved with community. Involved with fraternity with your brother and in the priesthood and when you do have interactions with them, you're too independent. Now to take righteous Council because you've gotten too used to it, you know, the same sort of horror show that happened in Colorado, city with the one-man rule can easily happen with an independent to his family.

53:34 Yes. If he's not tied to a community in some way, right there has to be a healthy tension. There has to be, there has to be a healthy tension between, you know, absolute power somewhere, and then absolute power given to everybody, right, there has to be a healthy tension pressure and I don't want to necessarily say a middle ground because I don't think that quite covers it. But Steve for sure it's almost like the checks and balances sort of an idea it is. I'm right a professor in college. Teaching American history, he kind of made that exact same Paradigm East to stop thinking in terms of right and left politically.

54:14 And start thinking on principle and between the two extremes of of tyranny and Anarchy, which is kind of what we're presenting here between the tyranny of the one man and that tyranny of individuals or Anarchy, you know, absolutely not not being accountable. Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more and I think, you know, and this goes both ways, both were people who have who have no accountability and consider themselves. The one man or an heir to the one man throw that out there, too. Because in sometimes, those positions are hereditary or people who are in the bloodline want it from their father, or grandfather or whatever. And for those Independence, people consider themselves Independents.

55:01 It is just as likely In both conditions to become a law unto yourself. If you are not following the revelations in the spirit of God, right? And and the letter, You know, and laws of God as contained in the in the revelations already received in the scriptures already received, you can both both are a slippery slope and it's just as easy for independent to become a law unto himself and biting and soon as it is for the one man, absolutely I couldn't agree more. and, yeah, the the church does that about, you know, going back to that idea is I know, I hear it. I hear it from my parents, I hear it from pretty much all my friends who are in the church still is follow the living Prophet, you know, is the, is the title given to this idea. This idea is that the the prophets before their the dead prophets, follow the living prophets. No matter what, you know, stand that goes back to this one man idea that arbitrary rule were one man who is living now, Say Jesus Christ said that you know, said this but that's the New Testament, you know?

56:15 Well that for you know I'm taking it to an extreme, right. There's never publicly contradict Christ. and you can semantically argue that Christ is resurrected Not Dead But ultimately He's just the same as a dead profits. Historically, in time frame. Yeah, are you? Yeah. Are you gonna go? Do you have these little does anyone? Man now have the authority to disregard the teachings of Christ? I'd say absolutely not. Do they have the ability to disregard the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith? No, absolutely. Not Joseph Smith said that if any man teaches a Doctrine or gospel other than what I have taught, let him be accursed, you know, including Paul. And I believe that I absolutely believe that. I do too.

57:01 There's something else here that you had in your notes that that I really like and that was the unity card. Explain the unity card. Oh yeah. So these are the problems now and this. I love this too. I might I think yeah I'm not Pat myself on the back here, but I think I really got some Revelation or inspirational have kind of phrase, these these Concepts here because I'll tell you what, brother, I've been struggling with this concept of priesthood. Four years coming into fundamentalism from the church and I found myself out and out in South Dakota living with a man who is essentially a kind of a lone island in the priesthood.

57:42 One of the best, man. I know, best, man, that I know, God bless that, man. He taught me so much about priesthood, but it what? But I and I wanted to go forth and teach the gospel, the fullness of the gospel and I just started praying. And asking Lord shall I don't, I don't feel comfortable yet teaching the fullness of the gospel because I don't know how to teach priesthood in the condition where we're so far out of order please. Please teach me how I can teach this and that's edible Mall. Emotion, I ended up here in Missouri as a result of that. I'm 100% convinced I did not expect that because at the moment I wanted to go and teeth, I wanted to go and take the gospel to the remnant of the House of Israel to the lamanites and that was kind of, but I was focused on Well then come on in Missouri. I've learned so much about the different takes of priesthood because there's a lot of different backgrounds here and I've been able to talk to them about all of that, and it's been very helpful anyways.

58:43 So With priesthood councils being opposed to one-man Rule and independent rule. I have observed to essentially diametrically opposed what I would call Trump cards. Used by people who support the council method. Whenever a issue is brought up in the way that they want to address that issue. I call one the unity card and one the seniority card the unity card by Mission is essentially the all members of a counselor corm have to be in unity with each other before. Any decision is binding, this is a good thing and a bad thing. It prevents the likelihood of straying too far into verb, into forbidden paths by keeping a status quote. So essentially you're creating a gridlock, if you have personality clashes, which you talked to my father about politics.

59:38 And he thinks that's the best condition for the government to be in with your, with politics. I agree with your dad because if they're busy arguing with themselves are not in agreement passed stupid laws. So yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely right. But theoretically, this could also and it's just theoretical theoretically could this can stifle Revelation and Direction coming from a president of the council or any other member of a council, having Revelation, and presenting it to the Corp and will. And I'd like to get into some examples of this for that. For now we will love that definition stand by itself and we'll go up to the definition. Created for the seniority card which is where the president of the priesthood or key holder or whatever the title is senior, in the group might have has the right to hold the keys to the revelations and a final say, or a veto to regarding the operations, such as Temple work, or who should marry, who, or designating, a successor or basic, whatever.

1:00:38 All basically, whatever operations the work needs to address that. That president or Key holder or Fountainhead or whatever, we want to call, has that veto ability to put his foot down? No matter what right, you know and and Yeah, I think so. I think that those, depending on if there's a Schism in a quorum like with Joe Thompson, the seniority card was played big time with you, it's rumored out there. And I'd say it's a misrepresentation to an extent that Joe Thompson was out giving, second, anointings and Temple ordinances to people that were not in the movie or, or that, or without in the or in a mirror. Without the permission of oh and already and so anything that he did was completely Nolan void because the senior, you know, and what and be tone essentially or he didn't give the approval and therefore it's not valid you know or Owen and maybe we can talk about this to who knows we have time oh and in 1994 so started going through all the branches of the auv and basically on preaching the temp work that they've been doing for first.

1:01:56 Over a decade. Because, you know, and basically, as president of the priests and vetoed, all the work for the dead and all the second anointing that they had done allegedly. You know, that's what I've heard, you know. Yeah. And that's, that's why I really have a problem. Sure, right. That's that's where this really gets messy because, How can you like, do a broad? No, none of that counted without looking at each case individually. And I absolutely agree. And like, oh, man, did I? I could not, in fact, I know people, I know people in the priesthood works that I'm associated with, who have the opinion that some of the people who have been ordained us or novices should not have been.

1:02:44 But in every instance, where the personality is disagreed were in office was conferred, they said it's Hands and we'll see what they do with it. Yeah and I think I think that's the proper way to get to the very least is if it shouldn't have been done. Oh well it's done now. I'll see what if they rise up to it. That's my two cents. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I again I mean these, these aren't these aren't things that you can do. Blanket statements with right thing and just cover with one Fell Swoop because these are people and people are different. Every circumstance is different, and every circumstance needs individual attention.

1:03:31 So when you start talking about blanket, If you will of no no this doesn't work. You know that this was no one void. I really have a hard time with that and actually that's a that was one of the big catalysts for Joe, Thompson, moving forward with the work that he began to do with Ted Jessup and others was because do one kind of unprefixed the temple work. You know, he had already been cut off from the council for personal issues and stuff. And a big reason that he went for was like, we just spent a decade. Doing all this Temple work and I'm feeling now that he was dropped from that Quorum.

1:04:12 He no longer had a risky place. He was debased or position of Independence and still, you know. Okay. I'm gonna, I no longer have to be accountable to the form, because they dismissed me and I'm going to go forward with the keys that I old, and Trying to perpetuate the priest into the best that I know how. So that's the keys, remain on the Earth. You know, it's so interesting to me that Mormonism more than any other religion. I know, does the same cycle over and over again, right? I mean, I was absolutely, does you you look at what, you know, because Thompson's essentially doing the same thing that the woolies are doing right?

1:04:55 Right, right. We can sustain the wall easily. Can't sustain brother, Joe and doing that. Yeah. And Just amazing. Because I look at this, and I'm like, okay, we should be learning something by now. Right, we, we've been through three cycles of this. At some point, we need to start learning something and figuring out how to work together and ever since ever. Since Heber C, Kimball if not, before the prophets have been saying that, if the, if the people do not rise up and be qualified to build the kingdom of God, God will find another people to go and do it. And we are seeing that iteration and that cycle. I'll repeat itself and that's this is the whole thing. I want to touch on is these principles of governing and and so that we can move past this cycle essentially and actually build the kingdom of God on correct principles.

1:05:46 And I think that in the big way, that's not going to happen unless we figure out presidency and keys. Ben and I have a disability way toward or differentiate the two of them. So let's. All right. So let's touch on some of these issues with under Unity card and are prettier or problems arising with with councils. The AUB for example has has seems to be able. The, the presiding Apostle of the council has had the ability to appoint the next successor in the council as the head of the There's the next town of the priesthood. It's by appointment and not by seniority by ordination. At least two occasions, one guy who was senior by ordination was passed over at least twice.

1:06:37 And there was another instance with another man to but was once in his case. Because of appointment. And I'm not in a say, That. That can't happen through relation. But what I'm saying is that there is a danger if one man can say in a point a junior guy president or whatever and a bypass is all the other guys and I don't know what kind of discussion there was behind closed doors. I have zero idea so I'm not really trying to argue their procedure it's just something that I've noticed that's a little bit of a question mark to me I think it's an outgrowth maybe of Joseph muster appointing rulon Allred to succeed him.

1:07:22 He claimed Revelation for it by passing the rest of the priesthood Council that was associated with the work at the time, which eventually became the Colorado, City priesthood Council. In Centennial. Park a firm, went as near as I can tell. It seems, it seems as if the senior that senior were the Apostle is able to take the presidency of the Quorum or their counsel friends. I don't exactly know how they Define the status of senior and worthy and this is actually what I want to get into as well with these same questions. I think it's the best format so far, but also to me.

1:08:04 Seems potentially ambiguous. Regarding how you define worthiness and how you define seniority and we can touch on that in a bit and the Peterson group share a little bit of an anecdote with my experiences with some of the missionaries there, you know, about four years ago, I was at Sunstone Symposium and I met some of those, you know, elements of those Elders, were there, handing out pamphlets and stuff. And I had a great time talking with them and learning about the branch and I just had some theoretical questions regarding succession. Pretty soon. And I asked what protocol there was regarding succession. If one of the living descendants was found not to be qualified to be the president of the branch. I also, you know, I believe that they told me at the time that the profit of the branch and the president of the branch are not always the same thing.

1:08:59 And that the patriarch to the branch can also operate as presidents as well. If the prophet wanted to recuse himself from the duties and responsibilities of the office of President and you can correct me on that if I'm wrong. And so technically on a technicality, the patriarchy To the Office of the President, until someone in the family, rose up to fill the office. My question was essentially, what is what's the layout for If no this is the whole contention with Joseph Smith's family, was that Joseph Smith at third or David? Hi. Rose Smith had a right to become the next head of the priest or president of the church by virtue of being.

1:09:42 The are you in the Covenant are to Joseph Smith and it did not work out. They were not qualified because their mother lied to them. Regarding the doctrines that Joseph Smith was teaching and they could not reconcile. Those ideas and so they were not qualified to lead the church. Even though Brigham made the he made statements saying that David would qualify he would step aside and let him fill the position. That was his Birthright. And so, what's this idea of hereditary succession? And I've seen this in other groups, to me, it seems the potential for conflict if there's a vacuum and it can lead to a King mentality that there is in the Book of Mormon.

1:10:26 Right, I agree with that. Yeah, I could. I could see that there are certain cases that can absolutely go off the rails. So, let me ask you this real quick. I want to go back to the seniority card if you will. Okay, sure. And if I'm interrupting your flow, let me know. Oh, you're not. I think we, I think, let's take your question. So with, with that seniority card. Are they talking about? See, are you talking about seniority? As far as being a senior, in terms of the one being in the corn, the longest I think it would depend on the the rules of the Purim in particular because the senior under one definition could be the senior by ordination the first ordained to holding a the same position as others in the Quorum and therefore by virtue of that I can assure, for example, the the president of the Quorum of The Twelve is the the oldest Apostle by ordination. But in uni for example it's not the case now because the previous head of the priesthood can appoint a successor and now he is senior In position.

1:11:45 And so there's two definitions are seeing you my ordination and Senior by position. And so with the seniority card, it doesn't, it's not necessary to distinguish those two points based. Basically, it's assumed whichever definition of senior at that point. Is the one making or has the ability to make a final say so, and how does that veto power? Whether it's senior but ordination date or senior by appointment that you have the that you have the Power to veto or decide and Implement a change. Okay, so let me push back against the seniority card for just a minute because I want to get your response to this sure Playing devil's.

1:12:28 Advocate here. Oh, let's do it. I don't think Brigham qualified based on the seniority card. To on a technicality. He didn't the way that the Quorum of The Twelve had operated in a lot of ways was by age and not, by ordination, and lime, and white was older than Brigham Young was. And that was one of Wyman whites excuses for not being in harmony with Brigham and the rest of the twelve was because of will bring them. I should be senior. Yeah, they should be following me. Yeah, because I'm older, right? The only reason I would push back on this at all, is that?

1:13:13 There are certain men God can use in certain times, right? I mean, I can't think of anyone more perfect than Brigham Young to tell everyone, get your butts in the wagon. We're going to go across those planes and then when we get there were going to carve a entire Society out of Sagebrush and mountains. and let me let me if we play just the seniority card, I worry that If it's not a matter of prayer, right? If we're just going on the assumption that, hey, this is where he's at in the chain, he needs to come forward, we could circum that, you know, we could short-circuit the work a little bit, right? We we do anything we have in a lot of in certain instances and it goes back to that statement about the church you know being led astray by the president of the church or president of the Corn, right?

1:14:05 Just make an assumption that this man senior in the line therefore his word out As others on principle is bogus absolutely bogus in my opinion. Right. Right. That, that would be my only push back against the seniority card with book. And I disagree with it to what I'm saying these cards are used to combat. And I'll give you some examples, but let's in fact, let's do it right now. More recently, the 1950s priest in split in the fundamentalist movement, and you get, it's so interesting. Joseph. Mauser is presiding, okay, right. No one can dispute that actually except for they do some do, but I think by and large and I'll get this is blows my mind. Blows my mind how they can do this. But the idea is from the auv side of the split that Joseph muster as the senior has the right to have to walk by the priesthood Council that were on.

1:15:08 That was under him and point rulon Allred as his successor and appoint a whole new Council and he has the right to do that. My seniority and the Colorado city council is say, no, he was not in unity with the Brethren, he was not accountable, doesn't matter if he was a with the senior or not, he was, he did not consult with the rest of the Quorum. Therefore, any ordinary. Nations and appointments that he made are not valid concerning the work and you have that split there. And it's so interesting to me that once Joseph mustard eyes, neither person who end up becoming the presiding Apostle and each group could technically lay a claim to being the senior, by ordination, because ruling already had call home Alma Alma Del timson.

1:15:58 Richard says Jessup. Charles sitting Leroy Johnson Marion Hammond. You name it all. Those guys were ahead of him in the council, but he's now moving forward to a point to do the work that about Joseph mustard, commissioned him to do, but then Leroy Johnson on the other side, had Lewis kelsch and Lee Graham and Legrand woolly from the Lord woolly appointments nearly 20 years earlier. That were at was ahead of him. And so neither Apostle, neither rulon Allred. Nor Leroy Johnson could claim position of an absolute seniority card on, in my opinion, for my observation on this. And I think the Lord will for anyone who's looking at the condition. I think the Lord left it that way intentionally so that we would not have an excuse to say he's senior, I'm gonna follow him, right?

1:16:47 Yes. You just find the senior by ordination, it would have been Legrand Woolly and who know who knows anything about Legrand, bully. And asking people that question not a saw, no one knows anything about Legrand will because he recused himself from the priesthood work. Because in fact, I don't even know if he live plural marriage, but he was appointed to the high priest apostleship by Lauren Woolly and he was a nephew or a cousin I believe. And he was a doctor and hit because his business and his practice was so tied in with members of the church, he felt that his and continued involvement with the fundamentalist movement. Would hurt his business and his family, right? And so I don't even know if you live a plural marriage, you know? And I do yes, I really don't know but he disqualified himself in my opinion of being the worthy senior by not being involved right?

1:17:41 Right banana. But if you want to argue this, the see me this absolute seniority card. Like, you can't just do that. You can't do without taking an account, those details, you have to be more nuanced, right? Right, I guess. From Italy, but my hope would be, is that, that counsel would come together upon the death of the president of the council and then do some honest prayer, right? And get instruction from the Lord about whose abilities who says, hold position. Yep. Yep. Let's talk about the problem with the unity card real quick because I want to bring bring this up. There's a lot of horrible crap that has been done in human history. For the sake of unity, right?

1:18:26 And so, so whenever I hear, let's just be United to be United. I get concerned, right? And, and the Lord makes Makes it clear that if you're not United on the correct principles, it's just as bad as being in Rebellion against correct principles case in point is the Tower of Babel, right? Because if you remember in the Tower of Babel, the Lord says, look the people are one and then he goes down and scatters the language, right? Right. And so if you're United just for you night, being united sake, That's just as bad as being in Discord or sometimes worse. Yes, yes, his gives power to and a lot more resources to committing atrocities.

1:19:22 So here's the, here's the rhetoric I've seen on the unity card. You know, is that a back to Joseph Foster? And what I said that he we can't dispute, he was senior, I've talked to people from the Colorado City side and other and other people who aren't even the don't even claim to be a part of the Lord, holy side of the work you know you know they're from the LeBaron side or whatever and they will say good. Joseph monster really be the senior. If three of his four wives left them there for, he's not qualified to preside over a council friends or in the keys there for the rest of the council can walk by him versus him walking by them. Right. And I had to shake my head at that that backwards rhetoric dude because I think I absolutely think that man was justified under Covenant by his ordinances of having, having the fullness of the priesthood and the second anointing and fulfilling the conditions of that law and entering, he entered into that order of marriage. The celestial order of marriage in 1900 or 1901 by Mathias Cowley who ordered who married them to marry to marry Caroline Hill.

1:20:37 There was a covenant there, there was a covenant they're made and then he took he entered into a covenant two more times and I'm sorry but he never broke his covenants and disqualified himself to of those women to say that three left in his life because one died. That same one, I mentioned, Mary Mary, Caroline Hill died in 1930. And so to say that, he's disqualified because one of his wives dies and now he has one wife that's living with him because the other two have broken their Covenants. Then breaking their covenants does not equate to him, breaking his government's right, you know, and if you want to read into John Taylor's Revelation on DNC around, he's the hunter 1882 Revelation, where the Lord said it is not meet for men to preside in my priest, who will not abide my law.

1:21:27 That in, my opinion is very much talking about. The Lord is saying someone who's going to repudiate this friend's phone. Use their agency to not abide by law. Get him out of here. They're not to preside but it doesn't say whatsoever that you need to be living the law of thermal marriage. He says, you need to be willing to abide it under those conditions and I think Joseph muster absolutely qualifies and so you can't just walk the with the swiftest unity card as you're saying, you can't just walk past them and come up with his justifications. You know, that he he's not the president of the Quorum, also, he had more, he had more Authority than they needed because he had For most of his ordinances in the second anointing and that had been a point of contention in the priests and group for years.

1:22:14 Right. Right. And and, and that even puts a new spin on seniority, right? Because maybe seniority isn't talking about dates at all, maybe seniority as talking about where you're where you're at. In terms of receiving your ordinances and you're worthy of sorts of I think I think things like the number of the condition of you entering the celestial order of marriage and receiving ordinances. They're not Automatic qualifiers. But they are considerable. Their items to consider when choosing a worthy senior by Revelation and for some reason, I don't understand it.

1:22:55 Joe Joseph muster allow John, why Barlow and Leslie broad been to preside over him without having those ordinances in that Quorum. He allowed them to preside over and he did not make any bones about being I more worthy and I'm more senior Than You by virtue of these Temple ordinances He didn't do that. He absolutely did not do that ever. And to me, that's, you know, he's T12 either for the sake of a type of unity that he viewed was better than division. Did it made that sacrifice? Or he had a view that that is different. I would love to ask him if he was here.

1:23:36 What constitutes the worthy? Senior, you know. How would you define that? I don't know. No, I think we make make very valid points. In, in all that. All right. Where do you want to go next? Big guy. You have any questions? If not, I can just get to the next Point, mr. Shillitoe, I think we, I think we beat that one to death. I felt like it was good. So yes, me too. It's a keys. So we've talked about presidency a little bit. Let's talk about keys are In a nutshell keys, are the authorization recognized by God as having the power to administer a blessing, that's one definition there are also keys to the presidency. For example, the way I've had it put to me is as a member of an Elders Quorum in the church, if you're going to go commit, if you, if you're just a member or not the president, and you're talking to one of the old ladies in the ward or whatever, and she wants to move you, do not have the keys to go and commit your entire priesthood Quorum, the elders form of that word before. We move that lady, right?

1:24:56 Commit yourself, you can go commit yourself to do that. Say, you know, I'll be here this weekend. I'll help you move I'll pack your boxes whatever out of the charity of your part but you cannot legally commit. Your whole corn. But the present, you have to go talk to the president and then has to be brought up to the Quorum and neither can the president fully do it, but he has the official right to sanction. It to make it a to make it a sanctioned decision by the body. That's the best. That's under the president's Keys. Their key, there's keys of power, and there's keys of knowledge, which are different Keys as well. There's keys of knowledge, imparted during the temple endowment, which give you Ability to to receive and to test Messengers from the other side of the mail. Right?

1:25:44 Sure. Yeah. Those are Keys as well. So there's we have to be careful to talk about when we're talking about keys to Define what we're talking about here. And so I'm mainly going to confine my remarks in my definitions towards the ability to officiate legally in the kingdom of God, performing Temple, ordinances or blessings. Count pertaining to the exaltation of the Human family. So here's, there's so many interesting things on this. Well, we go back to the succession crisis again, in Nauvoo, go to the to August 7th, 1844, the the apostles were dealing with Sidney Rigdon, and Sidney was a member of the first presidency and he was making a bid for being the guardian of the church until shows.

1:26:34 Us kids could come of age and received the presidency receive his position, right? And So there's a there's this question in the minds of the people who has the keys or who presides in the case of Brigham Young says, on August 7th 1844. I do not care who leads the church, even though what we randomly, the one thing I must know. And that is what God says about it. I have the keys in the means of obtaining the mind of God on the subject. I know there are those in our Myths. Who will seek the lives of the 12 as they did the lives of Joseph and Hyrum?

1:27:18 We shall ordain others and give the fullness of a priest. And so that if we are killed, the fullness of the priesthood May remain Joseph conferred Upon Our Heads, all the keys and Powers belonging to the apostleship, which he himself held before he was taken away. The 12, as a quorum, will not be permitted to tarry here long. They will be they will go abroad and bear off the kingdom to the nations of the Earth. Baptize people faster than mobs can kill them off. And so I think is really what you want to you want to comment on that? Yeah, just just for a second and again this this is for portions of my audience who've never been Mormon. Sure, tell me what the fullness of the priesthood is. The full.

1:28:06 Yes, thank you. I think that's going to Define. I'm not going to really Endeavor to prove it out by sources because they're not in front of me. But it is generally understood and I think most people have this understanding when you really dive into it, is that the fullness of the priesthood is the ceiling keys of Elijah, which is the right to perform all the ordinances and for the temple and otherwise, so that the kingdom of God can be built up and It is one of the the ceiling keys of Elijah is conferred during the second anointing upon of all these people. And so its inherent in that ordination or that anointing, that you are now qualified to build up the kingdom of God and fill up any vacancy in the in the Church and Kingdom of God Whenever there is one.

1:28:58 Now, you are now qualified to fill those vacancies in fact, Brigham Young and Joseph Smith said that they were going to No matter what office you held in the church on a technicality, you could go off and build up a branch of the Kingdom at all, anywhere in the world. If you had these keys, You're 100% correct. And and one of the other reasons I asked that question was to prove a point, right? And that point is this, it's not until the consolidation and the what do they call it? The correlated period within the LDS church. That this idea of the one-man Doctrine really becomes Central because you have Joseph statements And pardon the expression, the ultimate hard-ass that was ever in the in a position of power within the LDS church. Brigham Young himself says, oh no, we're going to our gain others, and give them the frankness of the priesthood. Just to make sure that this work keeps going. These men were not interested in in. I got the word but I don't want to use it on here but none of these guys were you.

1:30:14 Yeah. If there's times I wish that this was a video because your face would have said it all this wasn't a contest of who held more Authority, right? This very much was. Let's spread this around for a safeguard. Yeah, absolutely. It was it was the contingency plan. It was understood, you know, there was a conversation with someone recently over the Internet. It was about 600, s anointings. 160 is some men and their wives, you know, anointed to them. So 160 men with the fullness of the priesthood, besides the 12 that could fill any position within the kingdom of God, could step up to any position, they needed to preside in and not only that ordained others to any office and pass those keys along, right?

1:31:12 And Brigham Young made statements in another time. And I don't have the exact In front of me, where he says, if the twelve were killed off and the presidency, what would happen? You know, could have 70 or a high priest or the Elder go forth and build the kingdom of God? That's what I think he has reference to is that whether they have those those keys now, they have the ability to go forth with Revelation and fill up those forms again and reorganize the leadership in the structure you know if they have that second endowment they have the ability to fill those vacancies apps and build up the king. We got. And it takes in and hits the thing. He says Revelation do it by revelation.

1:31:54 And when you look at Brigham Young, stepping forward into the presidency three years after Joseph Smith dies, you know, bring a horse and hide testified that it was done by a revelation That Shook the neighborhood that did that the 12 hurt, they were meeting in his home in Winter quarters and he says that the whole neighborhood heard a the shaky, you know, there was an earthquake and that the 12 heard the voice of the Lord saying for Brigham to step forward and organize the first presidency. You mean there wasn't a handbook that they just follow right now? It probably was, I don't know. Sorry, sorry. I apologize. And it's counterproductive one thing. I like two things.

1:32:45 I like to comment on that statement. I read though, is that Brigham said, I don't care who leads the church, even though we randomly first off, that's a woman. Yeah, Joseph Smith said that a woman is not allowed by the revelations of God to lead the church or organize a church. And, and, and Lee, I believe was one of the spiritual leaders of the seventh day. And what became the 7th Day, Adventist movement, you're correct. Young and he said, we have the keys and we're going to go build up the kingdom to all the nations and baptize people faster than the mobs. Can kill them, and he's very careful with his words. He said, I don't care who presides in the church, I'm going to go build up the kingdom and he makes a distinction there.

1:33:27 Very intentionally. You can do whatever. You all by Common consent people, if you want to appoint Sidney Rigdon as your guardian to the church, I'm taking the 12 and all those who are going to follow and I'm going to go build up the kingdom of God, because the kingdom of God is separate from the Church of Christ. Well, and I think also Brigham and you can correct me if I'm wrong here. I believe Brigham ordained some of his sons. To the apostleship, right? So he's so he's actually ordaining. His children to be Apostles outside of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles. Yes, this is true and he lets see.

1:34:14 If you believe in Lauren, wooly teachings, handed down from The Woolly side. It's not the first time either. And this goes back to presidency a little bit. When you go back into the Kirtland period, there's like seven presidents right over the of the Holy order, not in in Kirtland, you know? And if you go through the Kirtland, High Council minute book, you see mentions of the Holy order in Kirtland, not just in Abu and The general authorities of the church. If I'm remembering correctly, at that time was Joseph Smith junior, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver cowdery Hyrum Smith Joseph Smith. Senior Frederick G Williams. And I think w w Phelps and their seven present and they were all called presidents.

1:35:02 Yep. All seven presidents. And and Oliver, according to Brigham Young was ordained an apostle, the same as Joseph Smith, and so they were Apostles outside. The Quorum of The Twelve Joseph and all over there. You know, and I'm not going to say whether or not the other seven. I mentioned, were also considered a pauses or not, but doesn't really matter to me. But Brigham Young pass on this apostleship to three of his sons was John, John Willard young Joseph agnel, young, and Brigham, Junior. And then he told he revealed that fact to John Taylor Wilford Woodruff George A Smith and Joseph A Smith or Joseph F Smith and he said you all have the privilege of doing likewise to your sons and setting them forth to and put them to work in the kingdom of God. Yeah, I think we look at keys in in a very exclusive, with a level of exclusive exclusive.

1:36:09 Excuse me, I'm having a rough time talking. We look at the keys as being exclusive to a, at least one, or maybe even a set of people, right? But if you go back. and you look, The early church fathers, if you will didn't have that same view, no. No, in fact, she wanted to go to the early church fathers. It's really interesting. You know, I think Arguments for made why the bishop of Rome should preside but he's still just a bishop Yeah, you know why, the bishop of Rome over any other Bishop appointed to the same priest? And if you will, you know, why does he automatically get to preside over? All the other Bishops, you know, both theoretical equal pleasee a school Authority, and and things were invented and maintained so that the that the papacy and the petrine appointments and whatever, you know, Justified that but there's just problems there as well.

1:37:10 We don't need to get into that but you see That problem to an extent is perpetuated itself in the church that mentality. And ins and and fundamentalism. No, no one is innocent here with procedure. I don't think we're truly being honest with ourselves on Principle as fundamentalist with principles regarding how we should govern ourselves here. And I'm not saying that having the second anointing justifies, you completely and running off and doing whatever the heck you want. I think you're silly. I absolutely Think You're darn silly if you want to go and do that and you're robbing yourself of the blessings of communicating and So she dating other people building up the commute the kingdom of God, which doing that you need a live law of consecration. What are you gonna do?

1:37:56 Consecrated to yourself, you know, you know you you there are these things that we need to do together and if we're not ultimately even if we're not we're not even exalted or not, he's altogether, you know, right on a theological standpoint. So why I'm not advocating that that a king and a priest with the fullness of the priesthood can go forth and do whatever the heck he wants to nilly Willy. You're silly, I think you're silly. If you do that you're robbing the influence you could have on people that could be considered your file leaders and you're not you're not doing your job in my opinion of holding them accountable. Right? No I agree.

1:38:37 I agree with you, 100%. All right. Well, I again, I derail this. I apologize. And I think we touched on some good stuff there. Let's do any questions or directions? I got, no, I got something else about comic consent in the church. The real lucky, let's hit that. So November 30th 1847 Brigham, Young said, you know, in a priesthood meeting to the with the twelve. If men are elected by this church, it is by-election. Joseph was ordained an apostle. But the church elected him as president Prophet Seer and Revelator, but he was never ordained to that office. Meaning he was never ordained to the office of Prophecy or Revelator.

1:39:21 Joseph was ordained. An apostle by Oliver cowdery. They receive their ordination from Peter, James, and John before there was a church, no man has the right to regulate the church, unless he was an apostle. Every Apostle has the Keys of the Kingdom. Wow. So there's a couple things that jumped out to me there. Oh, there's a lot there. The the first thing that jumps out to me is that the president of the church, doesn't necessarily automatically make you a prophet Seer and Revelator. Oh yes, you're absolutely right. It doesn't that that is simply the president of the church is simply a function of presiding right, we touched on earlier I think so the next thing that jumps out to me about that statement is that there were Apostles before there was a church Right.

1:40:23 In fact, I believe in one of those priests in meetings as well. Bring them read that in which, whatever pistol isn't in in the in the New Testament where it says God gives first apostles then prophets and evangelists. You know, and goes down the line, you know, saying up and do. There's a beautiful speech in the Journal of discourses, I don't know. I'll have to send it to you later. I don't have the citation right now but he's Brigham actually. I know where it is. Not the site. Shouldn't, but it touches on this. There's another instance where Brigham Young says he's tempting, dude. He's tempting. The people so hard. He says, let me. Let me give you a stumbling block. You know, I want to give you some information that if not understood correctly. This is going to cause some of the elders in Israel, to stumble.

1:41:08 But being the president of this church, does not make you the prophet of it. Or he says, being a prophet, does not make you the president of this church. And he gives that that rhetoric and there's some other things. In that speech that I've never seen quoted anywhere else, but I love because he gives a dissertation on the apostleship and how it comprehends the rest to the office of the priesthood. It's in, my opinion is beautiful and he, he talks about how when they were laying the Corner Stones of the temple, how they did it, or how they were going to do it. And with the apostleship first, I think I don't know who was Far, West, or or whichever one or Nauvoo the Did it.

1:41:51 And then the high priest, or the Nothin, the bishop, and the second Cornerstone, and then it was the elders and then the 70s didn't both the fourth one. And so he showed that the apostleship and the 70 apostleship started and finished in that, the priesthood comprehended and completely circumscribed in a circle, all the other offices of the whole, you know, of the temple, you know, right at the temple there, you know, and I thought It was the way he relates it way better than me. It's beautiful. I think it was very inspired. There's a lot of people out there who will debate a what that an apostle has the right to do what they have to do that. They only have the right to preside over the Affairs of the mission field and that they can't go into organized stakes and branches and set them in order that's true. And it's not true at the same time you can if you're set since bye.

1:42:48 The president of the church but people can downplay the apostleship too much. I feel like and I think that it's understood in some instances that this apostleship should be held in common with the fullness of the priesthood, right? And that's the fullness of the apostleship or what, I like to call it an anointed Apostle and let's see if it was Stephen. Let's let's address some historical revisionism. There's some people out there. R who they don't like the high priest, Apostle term in fundamentalism because it seems to be inventive, right? And it's very interesting to me, because there was a debate in the church, whether who had more Authority, a high priest, or a 70 Apostle. And that argument is as old as the church essentially, as soon as the offices of high priest and 70 Apostle were were were instituted, there's been a debate Amongst both forums who presides over who and when and where, and all that. And so I think it's kind of funny, you know, From a historical revisionist standpoint. I can see Lauren, will they say, you know, we're going to put this whole thing to bed right now, working. We're going to come by a priest, an apostle, you know, right? This to bed right now and and I've seen that in the records with George Albert Smith when

1:44:19 Joseph F Smith as president of the church ordained George Albert Smith as an apostle, he ordained him a high priest first and then ordained him in a fog. But then when you compare Brigham Young, he said that the apartment 70 is an apostle just the same as an apostle hours and it's the same priesthood, you know. You know it's just that the 70 or total told work under the 12th, right. And I have my own nuances on 70 apostleship to but this idea I think truly is that the apostleship should be with the fullness of the priesthood is an anointed Apostle or barely a high. East comma, Apostle Karma and patriarchy because the second anointing gives you the call the ability to be qualified to fill any office.

1:45:11 And that's what Lauren will lie in. Those guys were given allegedly were that. You can operate as high priest Apostles and Patriarchs. But I'm reading between the lines, they're saying is high priest, calma Apostle, Colour and Patriarchs. Basically, I'm giving you a commission. To fill all the to have to be able to fill all these vacancies here. No, I'm not. I think that holds water based off of that previous section. We read their where it talks about giving the fullness of the Gospel of the fullness of the priesthood Too Many Men. I think I think your statement there is backed up by what Brigham said, you know II like to think so.

1:45:54 I hope people can get the sphere of that because it's something that some people struggle with in down. In the apostleship is that you can only preside in the mission field, the high priest a i the high priest should preside but I I personally do not feel comfortable in downplaying. Very strong statements from Brigham, Young about the responsibilities and privileges of the apostleship No, no. And This is where Nuance is really needed, right is awesome. I fully admit that. And this is where you have to take that. And, and again, not being able to take a blanket approach to all of these things, right?

1:46:44 There's things that bring them did and things Joseph, did to assure that the work would go forward, no matter what, and then Times that Brigham can't Brigham makes comments that are specific to the current situation that he's in. Where the church is functioning pretty close to fully at that point, right? And so, we have to be nuanced and how you approach, especially Brigham's statements, right? Yes everywhere. The context and, and everything pertaining to it. I think. And, and the historical context of things. If you just, if you just Read it.

1:47:26 And then just try to make blanket statements based off of one passage. You're going to confuse your family and you're going to confuse yourself, you have to know the context and you have to be able to understand the historical background to get the full idea of what idea, Brigham is trying to drive home at that moment, because I think in that previous section, we read about giving the fullness of the priesthood to too many. He's In a cent in essence saying if the worst should happen and the US government comes in here and kills a bunch of us or puts us in jail.

1:48:08 We've ordained enough men to the fullness of the priesthood that this thing will keep going. Other times. He's talking in general conference and he's expounding upon apostleship with the idea that the church is functioning pretty closely to the way, it should write them. And so he's trying, he's trying to get that across, but you're not going to know either. Those seem to be competing statements, unless they're not. But they if you understand context and history, they're not. If you don't understand the history and context, they seem to be in competition or in conflict and so knowing the background is so vital in these conversations, I shouldn't say better than not as well. I absolutely think that's correct. You know, and that goes back to in general conferences, stuff like you're saying is there needs to be respect for order you know.

1:49:06 And I'm not discounting that that there I believe full heartedly that there is an order to the priesthood. For example, one thing for sure is, the priests of the government of the priesthood is patriarchal. Yeah, you know, that is a ninja I'd say, even without the priesthood. Human Nature by natural law functions better with without with a patriarchal structure than without one in my opinion. But there's also other ways with priesthood, that's not priests, it does operate. Not just pay sharply, but fraternally between brethren in these forms in these councils that were talking about, and there's rules for that. And there's once there is one statement, we're going back to presidency versus prophethood.

1:49:58 I'd like to comment on Apple that too. so instead interestingly enough, you know, you actually have statement of Brigham Young It does not mean to be a prophet of this church that you necessarily the president of the church. We saw some of that historically with John W Taylor who was, and I don't know if this was tongue in cheek or a kind of a jab at him for his personality, but he was he got the nickname profit of the Quorum eating profit of. He was the one making thus saith the Lord statements and he was in that he was exercise.

1:50:39 And the gift of and spirit of Prophecy, but he was just a member of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles. And he was never even the senior member of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles. But he was the one exercising that gift. And so he got that nickname. Yeah, and I think that maybe maybe that was given to him by Heber J Grant or who knows, me knows like a little whippersnapper thinks he can just be that bold and declare thus saith the Lord statements. I don't know, maybe it was a term of endearment I have No idea, but I think it's interesting nonetheless that to give it as an example. And again, you'd look just love to have some sort of historical context or even maybe just the tone of somebody's voice that would, that would give you some idea of what they were talking about, you know, where they really making a, a jab at them or were they sincere in the sense that?

1:51:35 Wow, this guy is really in tune. What is it? Well, I personally That it was in tune. I do too John W. Taylor is like one of the biggest folk Heroes of Mormonism life. In my opinion, I agree. I agree, wholeheartedly But yeah. So do you have any questions for me then transition or I don't think so. I think I think we covered that pretty. Well, there's a so earlier when we were talking about the unity card versus the seniority card, I mentioned in my notes 1880 Revelation. So this to me In a big way it helped me understand cuz my present understanding of priesthood and it's in the what is considered the for hidden Revelations. It's a this is so interesting to me, it's the 1880 Revelation given to Wilford Woodruff and So the for hidden Revelations, are the 1880 Revelation to Woodruff the 1889 Revelation to Woodruff when he was president of the church and then there was the 1882 revelation of John Taylor and the famous 1886 Revelation. So to me, historically, this is super interesting because in 1880, John Taylor is the president of the Quorum of the twelve and he's alive.

1:53:03 But Wilford Woodruff is out there. And by Sunset Arizona, You know, with locksmith and they're doing their United order type stuff out there, whatever. And he there's questions, burning, and willful just heart regarding order in the priesthood and all these things in the 18, I will hands down. Stay out of the forehead and Revelations. The 1880 Revelation is my favorite one. And a lot of answers pertaining to these principles in these questions that were asking, are found in this, in this Revelation. I think I'll read some of that to you here. In this Revelation, the Lord asks, I wish to ask the rest of my Servants of the Apostles, the question.

1:53:48 Although you have one to preside over your Quorum, which is the order of God in all generations, do you not all of you hold the apostleship, which is the highest Authority ever. Given to Men on Earth, you do there for you? Hold in common, the Keys of the Kingdom of God in all the world. You, each of you have the power to unlock the vale of eternal The D and hold converse with God, the father and his son Jesus Christ and to have the ministration of angels. It is your right privilege and duty to inquire of the Lord as to his mind and will concerning yourselves and the inhabitants of Zion and their interests. And this is beautiful here and whenever any of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your counsels and whatever.

1:54:40 By United consent, you deem wisdom to be presented unto the people. Let it be presented by the president by servant, John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way, you will uphold him and strengthen his hands. As all the burden, should not lie. Upon one man for thus saith the Lord, all mine.'. Soul shall be full of the Holy Ghost of an inspiration, and a revelation to know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore, let mine Apostles. Keep my Commandments and obey my voice and the Very Gates of Hell shall not Prevail against you that thing lays it out.

1:55:20 Beautifully. Sure does. Because, in some ways that statement is a little bit of the, the unity car. Hard. And it's a little bit of the one-man card. You could see how it could tie in a little bit to the seniority cars right here. The the unity being all of you must agree on this. If somebody gets the word of the Lord, this is a Fail-Safe, right? It is we're going to all agree on this or this is not going forward. This this kind of pays homage if you will to what your father says about.

1:56:01 Walk. Sometimes it can be a good thing. Yeah. And likewise once it's been All United once everyone's United. Hey, this is this is right? This is good. We've all received Revelation on it, then it's presented by the president of the Quorum, if you will or, or John Taylor to the body of the Saints, this is how it should operate this and it kind of takes the best of all the those cards we talked about, right? And and allows it to function. Yeah it's order. This to me is the order and it's the correct order and that was the rhetorical question that God asks you an answer you that this is the order of God in all generations. That you have a council that the apostles are there that you hold the keys in common with each other. But there is one set apart to preside and keep order in your counsels.

1:57:01 You know and this thing is, you know, DNC 88 this thing is beautiful. You know is what the Lord says. In regards to the teacher appointed in the school of prophets to be the one to be the spokesman and to be the to greet and Tall, you know, to the people when they come in and call order to the meeting, this is beautiful to the Lord to have that, you need to have that kind of order but It does not mean in and out of order condition that you cannot proceed with the keys that you've been ordained to and do the work that you feel that you need to. But I will say, can't be cautious for whatever you do. You will be accountable for essentially, you know, to the Lord for at least, partially for what you do because you can't control.

1:57:49 What someone else is going to go, do. In your name or in, you know, if you give them Authority or whatever and their sales days for that to, you know, but you are gonna be responsible for the way that you magnify, your priesthood and life. And and, and so when I see John W Taylor, Matthias Cowley, and other Apostles in the Quorum of The Twelve going in perpetuating plural, marriage. They were doing that on their own responsibility and people will go ask President Joseph F Smith Can we go enter the plural, marriage? And even say, as president of the church, I cannot, I cannot give you an endorsement to do that, but I know a man who knows the stealing ceremony or something like that. Yeah, I know what he said.

1:58:36 I read that couple different times. What he would say is, is as the president of the church. I cannot put my stamp of approval on it. However, if you can find the authority, God bless you, right? Yeah, and those, those are the games that are being played in John W, Taylor Matthias Cowley. John Henry, Smith, George Teasdale, Mariner Merrill. Roger Clawson, I could go on and on all these apostles were off doing that. And then Francis M. Lyman goes on a Witch Hunt when he finds out how pervasive all these other Apostles are doing this without going through him as president of the core. Yep. Yeah.

1:59:17 Sanction, because he was fine with doing plural marriages for other members of the Quorum of 12. As long as they came to him, you know, and he would ratify that it was. Okay. So he was very much a fan of this elitist. You know, the 12 can continue to take plural wives after the manifesto but none of the other 12 crew often. Help other people enter, it's good, you know? Yeah, that's an interesting time in church history, because especially with that statement by Joseph F Smith, I could almost in my mind's eye, see him say and God bless you, can find someone with the authority and then kind of like not Ting over towards John W. Taylor like yeah, over over. There we go. Good talk to him. if you believe Joseph monster, you know, he received and I wonder, I wonder who administered the Blessed his second blessings in the temple but he was called in the weekend of Thanksgiving November and 1899, 1899. And I don't know who performed the ordinance for him was probably Lorenzo Snow or Joseph F Smith though, I imagine and he got a letter and I think it was shooed. Now, I want to say it was John Henry Smith who delivered the letter saying that if you don't enter into the The order of celestial plural, marriage, your blessings will be taken from you.

2:00:37 And so, he went and found Mathias Kali, they did that and afterwards Joseph. F Smith can and found him on the street kind of incognito and said, God bless you Brother Joseph. Keep up the good work. Yep. Yep. It's so interesting to read about that time frame because on one hand it's discouraging because you you really start to see the the church kind of begin to get rid of that. On the other hand, You can see certain men who are still like, oh no, this has to keep going somehow, right? And so, I think it's both a time of both heroes and villains so to speak, or and it's interesting how close.

2:01:17 They both have to work together in. Do do that, I think, makes me wonder how money at the time. How dissociated some of the Brethren were on those points? Because the historical record shows that 13 Functioning Apostles of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles from 1890 to 1904. When you factor in all the people that rotated to the Quorum of The Twelve, which I don't remember the exact number but it's, you know, by 13, that's more than a full Quorum of The Twelve Apostles. Oh, you know, and some, you know, someone died and passed out, you know, through the form and the more vacancies are appointed their filled but 13, contracted or associated with plural, marriages between 1890 and 1900 for teen Apostles.

2:02:09 And I don't know what they all knew. At the time, they were probably, if you look in this is Cal Fellowship trial. He says, I was told not to counsel with my brother, but if they had the kingdom of God, might have been in the very different circumstance potentially, or maybe there was wisdom in it. Because maybe one of the members would have turned into a Judas who betrayed all the rest of them, I don't know. There is something to be said for plausible, deniability right? I mean right. But I look at that and I see the majority of you were act even though you were United by talking and planning in spirit, you were continuing the work in perpetuating it which begs the question, right? And this is something I've been big on as of late is Maybe if they were more vocal with each other maybe this wouldn't have gone the direction it went, right? That's all.

2:03:05 I wonder maybe if someone would have stood up and said wait, hold on. Let's stop this silly game. We're all doing this right and the teachers not that's on you, right? And then that's exactly what I would have said it. If you're not gonna go for him to this is on you, right? Right. And but I've had the same questions with Alice as a whole as of late, right with. And I've said it before is, we need to get up and get more vocal because right now there's almost a fundamentalist moment that's happening with under the banner of Heaven and the Netflix special on on the flds. We're at a time now where we had better start talking.

2:03:46 We it's time to step out of the Shadows, right? There's a there's a lot of people who point out for example that Joseph Mauser never pointed out the Never Gave the second anointings to the new Council. And we can see the reticence to talk about these things in fundamentalism. As you're pointing out that we are almost shooting ourselves in the foot committing committing suicide for the kingdom of God by not talking about certain things. And because of the ATVs reticence to admit that those ordinances were perpetuated. There's a there's a doubt cast upon that's Chopped there that their own claim to do Temple ordinances in the foot, by some people who Go into the literalism of Lauren woolies Tang.

2:04:33 Don't collect tithing, don't baptized don't do this. Your commission is to perpetuate a plural marriage, no matter what. Now, the Allred group is doing a temple ordinances that goes beyond your commission, but Joseph muster. If you believe that he passed on those ordinances, they have the fullness of the priesthood and I think inherently by that a commission to build up the kingdom of God, no matter what. But the reticence on that has shot themselves in the foot for the Air movement although they're big enough. They're big enough group that they don't really need any help to gather convert sir proselytes. But I think that that this this idea of reticence I'm not saying go and cast holy things before dogs or supplying whatsoever but we need to be up front with certain things and and disowned wickedness publicly and say that you know those fundamentalist we are not what happened.

2:05:30 Collectively we are not what happened in short Creek in the 90s and early 2000s under rule and Warren Jeffs. That's not us. Absolutely, the other thing I'll say is that it's interesting to look at where the LDS Church's now, right? Because just this past general conference, you had to get they had to have an apostle stand up and say enough talk about heavenly mother we just don't know enough they go. Oh yeah. Oh yeah because there's a A hunger for it, right? And so I'm like, no, no. We know you just don't like what it comes with it. It just Adam God, and plural, marriage. But we know about heavenly mother and we could less sweet than that under the rug.

2:06:13 We can talk about this openly and and again, I find it most funny that we're in this fundamentalist moment. I really believe that that, that we can and we can tell our own story, we can own it now, right? And we can also answer questions. Students on the other side for some of the folks in the LDS church whether they decide to stay in the LDS church or come out, I would rather than I would rather see them practice some form of Mormonism rather than just throw the whole baby out with the bathwater. Dude, the way I see the church and I'm grateful for the church because it was my upbringing. I was raised of goodly parents, traditional parents enough to fundamentalism resonated with me and truthfully, the only thing holding my parents back from being with me. And my extended family that are faithful, is the one man doctrine that you follow the president of the church, no matter what?

2:07:07 Because on principles, they have acknowledged generally that they have that they believe the same as I do, but it's this idea of Follow The Prophet, follow the president of the church, he cannot Lead You astray, which is that's attached, man, that's the test for sure. That's the test that the Lord is giving to us, to see if we will be led by the spirit or not. You know, and even if you go into Ezekiel, I think is equal 14 or 13 in the Old Testament. The Lord says, if the prophet deceive you, you know, you know that I have and I have deceived that Prophet, you know, to give you a strong strong delusion.

2:07:50 Right. Right. You know that's a that's a tough pill to swallow you know? And and but on the other hand Josette, I think the Joseph Smith translation of that says that the I have not deceived that profit but insinuate still that the prophet can deceive himself. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, look. And that's the other thing, right? We, I think it's human nature that we want. To be able to, to, to just trust leaders, right? We see it in the government all the time, right? That's how the country got to where it is, right. We just assumed that these people even though we elected them, we're going to do the will of their constituency. That's not true, right?

2:08:36 And likewise I think just because somebody gets put into a position of Authority or leadership. You can't just make the assumption that they're going to do, right? You have to be vigilant, you have to watch and you have to exercise your own agency. To make sure that you're always where you're supposed where you're standing over. God wants you to stand, you have to hold people accountable. In fact, I'll give you a citation in Abraham Owen would just journal in 1900. They're disgusting this time period, that we've talked so much about where certain apostles were going off on their own thing. And they are preparing their helping people keep their covenants because I believe that when you enter it when you're sealed in the temple with a with a sealing ceremony that we presently, have you met?

2:09:28 An oath and in Covenant to that, you will enter into an abide all the laws, rising and privileges pertaining to this. Holy order of matrimony, which you only enter into impart in part and not as fullness at that moment. And the one of the conditions and laws, what does DNC 132 says it is the law. You know, if you want to fullness of your exaltation it is the law and if he's not. But I'm grateful for the people that have come before me to point this out. As if you do not obey that you are by default a covenant breaker. Yep. In case I'm Max of 2001 woodruff's Journal. He's I love, I love Owen.

2:10:11 Woodruff is such a shame that he died as early as he did. He was in his early cities, like, 31 years old and died in 1904 right after the second Manifesto. But he's a junior member of the form of the 12th and he's got one wife, he hasn't taken a second wife, yet what he did, and they're discussing all this stuff and Lorenzo Snow. Says, no man has a right to officiate in plural marriage without my permission in this church right now and and some other things happen and he writes in his journal of how he felt to sustain that because of everyone else in the Quorum sustaining it and he felt pressured that he had to just raise his hand and sustain it and vote.

2:10:55 And it's like brother you should have had more courage to speak. In fact, being a junior member you almost have more leeway to disagree and say things than someone who's been in it longer, but he continues in his journal. He says, I know that this is not the actual opinion held by some for, I know that Matthias Cali, George Teasdale and John W, Taylor hold the same opinion that I did. Yeah, and run your class and was another one. He's not my favorite. See, after the second Manifesto of came, he, he wasn't said, we've had, we've had Manifest this enough. And here he had a messiah scowly, marry a plural wife to him after the second Manifesto and after the second Manifesto, Abraham, oh, and Woodruff went and proposed to one of Senator Reid smooth cousins. To try to get it to be stirred, what? Yeah, yeah, so that's so poetic it is. That's, that's so poetic and he died shortly wasn't able to do that.

2:11:58 But but to me, it shows, you know, when I look at that journals that heat, he had an opportunity there to keep his leaders accountable to to, from the bottom down work, with his priesthood leaders, and counsel at them and say, look, there's something off here. We, you know, we have the right to be able to do this the course. To be corrected. You know, we're not, we're not coming into contact with you president's know that you're presiding. We're not, we're not trying to overrule you, but let's Council, you know? And that's, that's something that we're missing, I think you're right it and, and There is nothing wrong with healthy debate, right in, and I think too often people cling onto that scripture about contention cometh of the devil, right?

2:12:50 There's a difference between debate and contention and there's a difference between contention and the spirit of contention in the scripture actually says the spirit of contention is of the devil, right? Right. Contention can be healthy right? I mean I have a lot of good friends who we don't see eye-to-eye on anything politically nothing. And we will go to the mat in arguments and then at the end hug it out. Right? And I think that, is that healthy contention, right? That's that healthy debate, that has to be had. And if a man is secure in his standing before the Lord and in his calling he will, he will abide in that, just fine, right in. And he'll be willing to to discuss with you and try to get you to see his point of view.

2:13:47 And if everyone comes at it from a Point of love and concern. It's a beautiful thing because a lot of things get worked out in those moments. I had a, I had a dear friend so I doubt we'll ever listen to this but I hope he does one day. Tell me we were on our mission for the church. You know we struggled sometimes depending on who our investigators were with being able to be bold Rob. And but he turned to me 11 district meeting and we were a bunch of us are staying in one apartment and we're just having a conversation and he said elderness you can be as bold as you want with your investigators as long as you match that boldness with love and do. That was a key.

2:14:35 That was a key that you can be as bold with your Priestly as any. Yeah, I'd say the same thing with priests leaders or whoever you can be as bold as you want as long as you can match that boldness with with an intensity with love. And I've seen it, I've absolutely seen it. I got out of one. One way I was on splits and I was bald dude, I said the church and the doctrine of the church. And of the Gospel does not uphold this position and speaking about homosexual marriages and just use kind of sympathetic to it and we pretty much walked out of there and I was like Junior companion to yeah well I was and I was with my district leader and we got out of there. He's like dude you just lost us that investigator for being as harsh as you were you know, being as bold as you were, you know, and Later that week she asked for baptism. She was baptized nice.

2:15:25 Yeah. So from what, from one perspective, it looks like I was being harsh, it looked like I was being way too bold for my own shoes, but something happened where she was on the fence on something and actually taking the harder stance and standing up for a principal resonated with her, and I'm not taking credit for that. I, that was completely the spirit. And I think the lord gave me that To always remember that, right? Yeah. Absolutely. All right, so let's talk about the legal Administration in the kingdom of God, unless there was something else he wanted to go over. No, but I think that's just fine.

2:16:06 All right, geez, we still got a minute. Did they just say okay, let's go, let's hit it. All right, go ahead man. Joseph. Joseph Smith in the teachings. Page 2274 said, whenever man can find out the will of God and find a find an Trader, legally authorized from God. There is the kingdom of God, but where these are not the kingdom of God, is not all the ordinances systems and administration's on the Earth are of no use to the children of men, unless they are ordained. An authorized of God for. Nothing will save a man, but a legal administrator for none. Others will be acknowledged either by God, or By Angels, Well, it's a shot in the head to any claim. Tend to have your own priesthood without being able to trace it. I think that you have to have a legit claim to Authority and to touch on that.

2:17:08 There's a lot of people who consider themselves, fundamentalists who get Visions or dreams or alleged Angelic, Restorations of keys, you know? And to me that's a red herring. It does or as a red flag and it is not stack up with it against my own litmus test against knowing where to find Authority. Because anyone can do that and it's not, you know, but when I look at this statement of that, you need to find an administrator who legally, authorized from God, although I will also say in those in the early 20th century debates. You know, about what to do with plural marriage.

2:17:48 There were discussions between George Q Cannon, and Lorenzo Snow and others about what they called. Concubine image of basically that you could common law. Under a solemn oath and Covenant, take a plural, wife, until the priest could officiate and seal it and you'd be justified because you'd be fulfilling your commandment to multiplying your foot and replenish the Earth, and fill it with righteous seed. But the idea was that it would ultimately be you have sealed but that you would be justified. And so there's there's some wiggle room there. I think on certain principles, But ultimately you need the priest abuse. The authority to seal a marriage if you want any promise. Looks like 132 points that out really fresh really clearly, right?

2:18:41 I mean that, that isn't a new that isn't a shock to anybody. That's Mormon in any sense of the word. I mean, you read 132 and it's very clear in that, right? It says that, you know, if these things are not done, not only with priesthood Authority, but also sealed up by the Holy Spirit of promise, it doesn't really matter. You're absolutely right. So let's reading from I want to skip some or let's go to Let's go to the fruits of the kingdom of God, which is to take my nose.

2:19:27 It's phrased. It's an, it's on page, 273 the page before, what I just read in the teachings and it's Joseph, says, there is a difference between the kingdom of God and the fruits and blessings that flow from the kingdom. Because there were more miracles, gifts Visions healings tongues Etc, in the days of Jesus Christ and his Apostles and on the day of Pentecost and under John, the Baptist's Asian, it does not prove by any means that John had not the kingdom of God anymore than it. Would that a woman had not a milk pan because she had not a pan of milk or containing milk and that. While the pan might be something compared to the kingdom. The milk might be compared to the blessings of the kingdom. And so going back to 274, he says, wherever there's a legal administrator there is the kingdom of God, even if there are no visions and gift, Of tongues or whatever. If the authority of the priesthood is there, there is the kingdom of God, and the ability to build up the kingdom of God to enter into Oakton, Covenant, and assure your salvation, essentially DUI, I'm glad you hit on this because I think this is one of those things that really needs to be parsed out here, especially when you're talking about keys and, and priesthood.

2:20:50 Yes. Yes, you cuz look we can ordained guys all day long, all day long. I could ordained my son's to whatever office all they want, but but if I don't teach them how to access the power of that priesthood and how to stand in power of those priests and how to use those keys, it's worth it. It It sells you short, right? It's like being given a key to the car but yet not knowing how to insert the key and turn the engine on, right? And right.

2:21:33 And if you're going to have the kingdom, let's have all the rights and blessings that that are ours by being citizens within that Kingdom, right? Yes. Absolutely. I love men like John W Taylor for And she waiting that because John Taylor said, if we don't embrace the principles here, the keys will be turned against us or you're turning that engine off, right? The car will work no more, you know it. But instead those people recognize that we have covenants to uphold for ourselves and help other people live their covenants. And I believe that the power in the priesthood comes from keeping your covenants and helping others make and keep their covenants.

2:22:14 And that's when you'll start to see, These beautiful blessings, the milk and the milk. Then as Joseph says, you know, you'll get the power in the priesthood when you keep and help others keep their covenants. Yeah, exactly. And and so I get that, you can have the structure there and that structure can be can be valid but you're selling yourself short. Right? Sure and It's one of the things that I think Russell M Nelson got right when he was president of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles, acting president.

2:22:56 He said something that that really resonated with me. I was in a meeting. It was a regional meeting here in Utah. And he said, brother and we've been really good about passing out the authority of the priesthood. But we've been done, a really horrible job of teaching, people how to stand in the power of the priesthood. So don't get me wrong, it's better to quote, fake it till you make it. But there's no reason not to get to the main point, which is being able to stand in power of the priesthood being able to to to to feel that flow. Big believer in perpetuating, the keys so of their own, the Earth, you know?

2:23:41 Because the Lord tells us what happens if they're not on the earth, he says the Earth will be utterly wasted at my coming, you know, and I believe in that, I don't believe that the Lord is a liar and so to perpetuate the priests and to make sure that the ability to legally officiate in the kingdom of God, is on the earth when he comes is, is Paramount because he said, I'm not going to restore the priests it again, right? So if it's not here and if it's not found, the Earth is utterly wasted at my coming. You know, anyway. He's not a liar. No, that's why God can't lie or he had ceased to be God. Yep.

2:24:25 Let's see if under the more illegal Administration, Joseph in page 337 of his teachings, says, that the spirit Power and calling of Elijah is that you have power to hold the keys of the revelations ordinances oracle's powers and endowments of the Fullness of the Melchizedek priesthood. So we start from as anointings and of the kingdom of God on the earth and to receive obtain, and perform all the ordinances pertaining to the kingdom of God, even unto the Turning of the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the hearts of the children, unto the father's, even those who are in heaven.

2:25:07 And I'll go even further into say, this says that the keys of Elijah, Authorize you to perform all the ordinances. Joseph Smith, and another instance also said, how did Jesus Christ get a fullness of the priesthood by obeying all and observing all the ordinances of the house of the Lord? So you take those two statements together and you can see that's what he's talking about there is that to have a fullness the priesthood you must have it have it the same way Christ did. And that's what Joseph was looking to, man.

2:25:48 He wanted people to come into that order and receive it. That's my belief. You know, he this is, this is something that We need to, we need to come together. You know what good is having going to be? If it's only one one man they're right. I was the case, the priesthood, you know I want well and and and this I think goes back to Joseph. At least the sense I get from Reading Joseph Smith, what he's after, which is, I had my experience with the Lord and I continue to have my experiences with the ward. Now, let me show you how you can go get yours.

2:26:29 Yes, yes, absolutely. That's that's correct. And that is I believe his whole motivation. Yep. Yep, absolutely. So let's talk about some of those keys that are given to you in your second when you receive your second anointing. Okay, sure, I think that's that's super important. What are some of those keys? Based off of historical record that I've seen. When you are anointed a kingdom of priests. And there's a there's actually several components to what is called the second anointing and the anointing to being a king and a priest is actually part of a larger endowment type. You know, procession of ordinances. It's also sometimes called the second endowment, you can go into what Wilfred woodruff's journal and occasionally he'll call the second Endowment, for example, but the blessings given Typically when you're ordained a king and a priest is the sealing power to bind and to loose to curse and to blast. So that's arguing under the keys of Elijah, the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, which are that you have. The promise that you're seeing will be more numerous than the stars in heaven.

2:27:52 Yeah, you'll have eternal lives that your, that your children will have the ability to receive the Plan of Salvation and continue your fault, you know? Posterity will just continue to continue to continue. It says, the Holy Spirit of Promise is bestowed and in that context, that is that is the second ceiling of your marriages. Hmm. Where you have a promise on your marriage covenants, at that moment you are truly married in the eyes of the Lord for time and fraternity and you're pretty rough to break out of that point. You had you have a claim you have a. There's An apostle from the Allred group name. Bill, Baird he he said once Without the Holy Spirit of promise, you don't have a marriage without a woman's love.

2:28:45 You do not have a marriage because it is through the woman, anointing herself to her husband and loving her with her. Love that she makes a marriage because a man can do whatever he needs to do or want or can do to lead and to teach if the woman will not follow and say that you were God will be my God, your people, my people you know then you I will not have a marriage that will last into eternity, but when she does, Fulfill that ordinance on you. You have the Holy Spirit of promise, you have the promise of that Covenant. Now you have a blessing to live as long as life is desirable and so I believe when Brigham Young anointed Heber C Kimball.

2:29:32 He said that you would live to three score and 12 years or something like that. If you desire, you receive a blessing to attain unto godhood. You have the power to become a member of the godhead in your sealed up to eternal life and have power to have the heavens open. Those are heavy heavy. Responsibilities and blessings. Absolutely. One of the things that that I think I want to mention here is we should all strive for that. But in that striving we better make sure we're worthy.

2:30:15 We better. Make sure that we've done done the work right to put it into a silly football analogy. We have better, have hit the gym and we have better have worked the offseason program to get to that point. Because at that point, if you stumble and fall, you could be on your own a little bit. if you, if you were to turn off, if you were to turn away from that, after receiving that that incurs a heavy punishment. yeah, there's a some people will say the you can give the second anointings or, you know, because You're stealing a van, someone their exaltation, and you shouldn't do that lightly, and essentially you are you are passing, you are allowing the angels in the Sentinels and the gods to pass judgement day upon that individual.

2:31:16 So they have their calling and their election. You know, and but I recall statements from Heber C, Kimball in the Journal of discourses saying, something along the lines of what you're hitting on is. It doesn't even matter if you, if you receive your anointings in your ordinances and you don't live your religion, it's as good as baptizing, a bag of Sam. Yeah, yeah. And I believe that in some ways it might be, it might be worse for you than that, because you have made tremendous. promises and you have not walked up to those at all and in some ways that might be the ultimate in terms of mocking God, here I I think you're absolutely right with that.

2:32:05 So, and then there's one that that I wanted to read right after you have those listed that I thought was a great quote, if a man gets the fullness of the priesthood. And excuse me, if if a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God, he has to get it the same way that Jesus Christ, obtained, it going back to what you said before. And then down there, although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the priesthood. Once again, showing there's probably a difference between an office, not probably, there's a difference between an office in the priesthood and the power of the priesthood. Right.

2:32:46 Yeah. And and I yeah, he didn't receive that ordinance, I believe and that's why he for the murder of Uriah. He his soul will not be left in hell because if you read Doctrine and Covenants 132 those who have been anointed if you commit the unpardonable sin by shedding innocent blood. You know, you will not forgiveness in this world nor the world to come and David and Joseph. It teaches us that David will be. Redeemed was shows us that he is not yet. See if that ordinance before he fell from his grace. You know, although I seem to be accountable to the level of a son of perdition. Absolutely, absolutely. So when did the well, let me rephrase this, when did the church start stop doing second anointings for the general membership of the church.

2:33:42 From from. So Brigham Young did not administer it. For the first few years of his presidency because he wanted to have a temple done to do it in, but after Johnston's, Army came to Utah. And after trouble, with the add, the anti anti bigamy laws in the 1860s, they started to anoint more people in 1866 and 67 and onwards. And from that point forward to Joseph Smith's presidency, they average am and anointed. To the fullness of the priesthood in the second meeting, one man, a year a day, a year.

2:34:23 Wow. And then Joseph is so that's that's 365 on average. But at night and every year but on average throughout all those years about and but then through Joseph Smith's presidency from 1901 to 1918, I think it was about 2000 or 2500 over an 18-year period. Is a lot, but it's a lot less than before. Yeah, but it's still a lot if the, honestly, if the church was still doing that and keeping their covenants because I don't believe that the second anointing inferring that up on people without living all the laws, I don't think it does a darn thing to you and that's why Joseph F Smith had John Henry Smith deliver a letter to Joseph.

2:35:08 Foster saying now that you've received this, you have to enter into the law, or you will have your blessings taken from you. If you don't Of plural marriage with the second anointing. or Endeavor to its Workforce in my opinion, but And so, the 2500 over an 18-year period is nothing to Snuff a, by any means, I think. But then it was Grant, it was under President Grant, they stopped giving them all boy. It seems like he's just he is the Woodrow Wilson his the version of Woodrow Wilson. Yes, for the LDS church. He really is, I mean, everything bad can go right back to him.

2:35:52 It seems so which is really tragic as because He was appointed by Revelation and it is so tragic. Yeah, it is. It is um I want to read what you have written down here on fruits of the kingdom of God real quick. If you're comfortable with that, That's why I mention that already, right? But you can know you're right? We did we did we absolutely did. That was a just because John didn't have the Miracles and casting out Devils. It's recorded that the apostles had doesn't mean that John wasn't illegal administrator and at the the Christ probably still had to go to John legally, to be baptized. Right?

2:36:38 You know, John was the was the legal heir of Aaron, you know, in the, you know, and the all the other priests and Levites, you know, had completely apostatize. Much at that point, right? Okay, where do you want to go next there? Big guy residency. So we've talked, we've talked a lot about keys and what keys are and that you can that all I, for example, all the apostles, have the keys, or that the keys are conferred, when you receive a fulness of your ordinances and we've distinguished that's different than presidency. But now let's go back to presidency in the priesthood and talk about Okay, let's do it.

2:37:26 So in Joseph, Smith's Journal, which I believe was written this. These entries in particular, I think we're dick were written described by William Clayton. On September 28th. 1843, there's a there's a meeting where they're doing Temple ordinances and it's what we call the anointed Quorum. Now historically or a says the Hyrum Smith Newell K, Whitney Bishop George Miller Willard, Richards were washed and anointed at John John Smith, John Taylor a Masa Lyman Lucien Woodworth, John Byrne, hisle We're anointed that evening and William law and William Marks, and Joseph and Joseph Smith then was by Common consent of all those people and unanimous and by unanimous voice chosen as president of the Quorum and anointed and ordained to the highest and holiest order of the priesthood.

2:38:32 And so all those other guys got their second anointings they were ministered to by Joseph and Hyrum probably and then they had a quorum and then like unanimous voice and common consent. Joseph was appointed and the presiding King those Kings and Priests unto God, you know, and so they all hold the keys in common, the allport part of that, anointed Quorum. But as we read in the 1880 revelation of Wilford, Woodruff it is the order of God and all generations to have one to preside over you. But it was like, instant am I wrote, you know, and Joseph Smith did not violate the order of God. Well, that's for sure.

2:39:24 A rule and self appointment. That's exactly where I was going, right. Let's face it. Joseph Smith was charismatic enough people loved him enough where he could have just said, I am the President of this Quorum and nobody would have had an issue. Nobody, but he went through the rounds, but he went through the channels. Right, which shows there is a difference between presidency and keys. Yeah and even with we thought we touched on earlier with just talking about the side this fat a fallacy of following your leaders and and the the protocols describes and DNC 107 about trying the president of the church.

2:40:09 Joseph Smith was not immune to that and when he got back from Zions camp and 1834 he got put on trial. Yep. And it wasn't the only time that he was and he was not immune to being put on trial as president of the church or presidents of the priesthood or whatever. In 1834 and a high Council was convened, a new Okay? Whitney preside over that. And they went through the procedures of hearing the cases and he did that on at least two occasions. Yep, yep, that's exactly right. When when I quit the LDS church I remember you know they wanted to know what was going on and so they kind of what they did is they kind of read off the temple recommend questions, right?

2:40:52 And it Down to do you sustain rustling. Nelson is president of the church and I said, yeah, I think president Russell. I'm Nelson is president of the LDS church. Well, what about him being a prophet Seer and Revelator. I have no evidence of that, right? We sustain him as such in the church but where are the fruits of it, right? It and I think it's a similar thing here, right? You can be president of the church, you can be president of a quorum but that right? But presence he doesn't have anything to do. With keys or power in the priesthood. It is simply an office to be administered. Yeah.

2:41:32 And and that point needs to be driven home because I feel like I feel like now especially within the in the LDS church and within certain groups in fundamentalism. There's an assumption made that if you're the president of something, that means you hold the keys to it all. That's not the case, right? And now you can exercise exercise. Arbitrary rule over those keys. Exactly. Yeah. I have a problem with that. All right. What else we got? Regarding the status of the keys on Earth. Sir.

2:42:27 That's an interesting thing. I found in my research for this, for this episode is a statement from Wilford Woodruff in the millennial star September 2nd 1889, he says, when the lord gave the Keys of the Kingdom of God, the keys of the Melchizedek priesthood of the apostleship and sealed them upon the head of Joseph Smith, he steal them upon his head to stay here upon the Earth until the coming of the son of man. They were then with Look to the day of his death, they then rested upon the head of another man. He held those keys to the hour of his death. They then fell by turn or in the Providence of God upon Wilford.

2:43:09 Woodruff I say to the Latter-Day Saints, the Keys of the Kingdom of God are here. And they are going to stay here to until the coming of the son of man. Let all Israel understand that they may not rest upon my head but a short time but they will rest on the head of another Our Apostle and another after him, and so continue, until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Clouds Of Heaven to reward every man according to the Deeds Done in the body. And so I think when he's talking about that the presidency one from one man to another, he is, I think talking about presidency in the church and pray that, you know, the keys of presidency of corms because like, we established earlier nine years before that he got Hep. His Revelation in the desert in Arizona, the Lord expressly told him that the apostles hold the keys in common with each other. But then that goes back to what we talked about with. Like the elders Quorum was the president of the Quorum is the channel through to legally.

2:44:13 And authoritatively commit, the whole quorum to a course of action. And moving mrs. Smith, From one apartment to the other, you can't do that without the president say so. And so, in that sense, I think you have to balance those two statements, but there is very strong that the priesthood is here. The priesthood. It is in the apostleship. It is resting here at will not be restored. It's going to stay on the earth and so you can't bypass the priests of channels that are on the earth and right now, We are, we are befuddled. Yeah there there are priests and groups and and channels. The I am not going to say that there's one legitimate line of authority.

2:44:56 Most at the moment can trace their authority to 1886 and I think that's good that doesn't mean that we couldn't try to be better with what we're doing and be a little more organized and More in order. To build up the kingdom of God because order is necessary to build up the kingdom of God. And I'll tell you what I'm sick. You know, the the children of Israel wandered for 40 years, in the wilderness of fundamentalism in seven years as wandered for 100 years in the wilderness. Yeah. In. And we're getting down towards the end of this thing.

2:45:36 And that's, that's the big question, right? Because On The Mentalist shouldn't say every a lot of fundamentalist run around, looking for keys, right? Looking for presidency, and until there. And and I think that's why this topic was so heavy on your heart until we understand the difference between the keys and presidency will never get to where we need to be. As far as we're going to, we're going to be too busy fighting each other on who has a right to exercise control over the keys. 22 and we will continue to divide. In fact, there's a brother in this community. Yeah, he's got a few wives and I'll here in Missouri.

2:46:19 I think people have become more open in the communities around and people and polygamists in Utah. Are they still just don't care out here? And he took his family out public and the remarks were Dang, you guys multiply like crazy. Are you guys are? Well, I've got a lot of kids and the brother says, you know, if you think we're really good at multiplying, you just, you should see how good we are at dividing. No he's 100% correct. He's 100% correct and I don't know how it all works out, right? I mean, look no. No, we look, we know and in the days, leading up to Christ's coming in the Book of Mormon that there were different tribes, right? And maybe these are different tribes, but at some point it's going to take us all it's going to take everybody. Need to stand up where they've been called to stand and to build the kingdom.

2:47:25 You know, maybe that's in separate geographical locations and that's okay. I can see the wisdom in that, but at some point is, it's some point we're going to have to be at least cordial with each other, right? There's a lot of groups, the marriage problem might solve that, you know, because some groups are getting small enough now that you're going to start getting problems with who you can marry. Yeah. If you don't Get new converts, or if you don't become negotiable, right? Right. And diplomatic. And I think that's why this subject is so important, right? Because if we had a correct view, as we've tried to lay that way out here today, which I think you would have done, which would have been way easier for you if you'd had a better podcast host.

2:48:15 But but but you have the, once we Have a healthy robust, correct view of the differences between keys and presidency. We can move forward with that, right? Because the whole, my whole dream on that this point because you could have somebody from one group Just grab another guy from another group. If he's close geographically and say brother, would you help me give a blessing because I have respect for your keys and for your in for your priesthood lineage and be able to do that. But at the same time that same Brethren who was asked, would say, I absolutely but I respect your role as president in this group, right, right.

2:49:06 Right. And those things can completely work, but we have To set aside our egos to make that work, right? I've seen so many cases people. Are you for presidency based on the number of wives that you have? Like, I have three wives and you have to therefore, I'm more qualified. That's bull crap. That's absolutely bullcrap to, to take it to that. Level of I can preside over your family, especially if there's no Quorum, you know, and we're in a condition. Some people out here a condition where there's not really an organized form on that level of apostleship and it's You can't preside over anything besides your own family, in my opinion, unless there's a quorum and Order followed and this presidency of the priesthood that has talked about in the fundamentalism so much, you need to be anointed. And as Joseph Smith, you need to be appointed by constituents by peers to equal standing with the keys before you fill that position.

2:50:06 And even then recognize what you were being set apart to Is an office of service that you're helping that you're helping the kingdom of God, being more organized, where you can be an Arbiter between disagreements and positions or parties within the Quorum and keep peace. And I love Lorenzo Snow. He did a fantastic job as president of the Quorum of The Twelve. When John W, Taylor and George Q Cannon were getting after each other, over some stuff over business dealings that they had and Lorenzo Snow went to John Donne Taylor and said, look, you know, you need to, you need to humble yourself and you need to keep the peace and go apologize in the future. If you do this, then this is going to happen. And and so I admire that kind of Lorenzo Snow took that responsibility seriously of keeping Harmony in his own Quorum, you know, there.

2:51:04 I want to go back to what you said, the role of President being a position of service because I think that has to be front and center for anybody in that position. And understand, this isn't something for you to gloat over somebody else, right? Right. This is for you. Understand. This is a position of service, right? The model I look at is the Saviour Let's go back to what he did to for the apostles, right? He washed their feet. Now I think we kind of gloss over that a little bit.

2:51:44 Sometimes we do. Back in the old days, they didn't have shoes. They were sandals. So, your feet were dirty, they were nasty and the savior's down on his knees. The savior of all mankind. Is on his knees, washing the feet of those. Who in? In theory were subordinate to him as a person who works in construction, I get that my feet. I wear boots and I got calluses on my feet, they're nothing to Snuff at. And so for people to be walking around Barefoot, that is some nasty feet and it said to subject yourself.

2:52:31 Oh man. But less it was appraised Our Savior for that but there's a lesson there. There that is done intentionally. Exactly. And that's the kind of service you have to be willing to render if you are going to be effective in presidency because if you come at it from a position of I just get to Lord it over somebody else. Now, you are failing, you are failing yourself, you are failing your brethren, and you are failing, the Lord in that column. And again, if we can get, if we can get past that, that's effective presidency.

2:53:14 That is effectively using your priesthood and effectively using your keys. So service I believe is at the heart of this whole thing. If we can't, if we can't be of service, we are of no use in the Kingdom Service and through service you will come Hugh, humble and through humility. You're able to say when a charges brought against you. Okay, let's hold. Court as priests import, let's hear the witnesses and follow and you'll follow through the procedures, and when you remain humble, you're not. That's your Shield. I guess, falling from grace and exercising. The Temptations of arbitrary Rule. And and then, and then the one man becoming a law unto himself. And so through service, they're genuine service, that's the key and the Safeguard in the protection against the coming along to yourself.

2:54:04 Absolutely. Absolutely, well, brother, we've been at this nearly three hours now. What you want to say in conclusion, in conclusion, we've talked about the differences between keys and presidency Powers priesthood, and even the difference between a prophet and a president, and a prophet, and apostle. And I hope these things can all get be weighed equally. I hope people enjoy this and learn from it. It's been my prayer in my heart for four years to get this straight. And finally, I feel like I'm getting somewhere, but the roles and profit, there's two, there's kind of two points, two roles And like I said, prophethood is not limited to presidency. It's not even limited to holding the keys technically in by the definitions, I'm going to give but succinctly I think that these are the definitions of a prophet of God. One to warn Nations groups and individuals to repent of their wickedness or to expose their wickedness and to, to teach individuals how to have their calling and election made sure by coaxing and encouraging them to come to Zion physically, and mentally and spiritually to come to Zion by obeying. The Commandments of God and entering into an observing, the Oaths, and Covenants of the priesthood. I think you're missing Seth

2:55:35 because there's nothing in there about forcibly. Making people do that. I don't see it anywhere. I think you must have been like oh yeah, and listen, listen to what I have to say because all in the president of a priestess, Yeah, no no and again those are those sound remarkably like acts of service right there and that's why I think Joseph Smith fits this profile here. That's what exactly what he tried to do is he was trying to get people to come into a position where they could have their calling and election made sure, you know? But it was by the proper Channel, by legal Administration, just like Christ went to John the Baptist and He recognizes that's the only way that you can get them and you promise.

2:56:29 I want to focus a go ahead, go ahead. I would say before I forget with these things in mind but service and with with helping others keep make their Covenants, I'll lose my train of thought again. I should have just kept come up with it. You can edit this part you go. Okay no sweat the word. I wanted to focus on there was a number two, which is the word coaxing rice. Yes, yes, yes. There is no. There is no sign of forcible. You know, there's no Force involved there. It is just a love, right, please, please come with me. There's something better here?

2:57:20 Come, come to, Zion come come this way, come to the Lord, let me, let me introduce, you know. Let me point you to the Savior. The other thing, even the warning of Nations and groups. There's a time to be tough and there is a time to be blunt, but there's also times to be like, please, Do this. Please don't go down this road and it totally depends on the spirit and upon the individual, you're talking to. Absolutely, and there's a reticence. Like I said, I'm a lot of people who are in possession of knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel who say, I'm not going to say a darn thing about it. Unless someone asks me and that's where I get this coaxing thing from is no no no, no, you can't do that, you're not living unless you offer more light knowledge, other people, you need to go and to coax them and Urge them to lead them in to entice them with the spirit of God, about the spirit of the devil.

2:58:13 Because the spirit of the devil can entice as well. But you need to go and entice them to receive more light knowledge. And if you do not do that, That you have no part with a lord. I don't think. Now there are times where you don't throw Pearls Before Swine or or holy things to dogs, I get that. I'm fully with that. There's a time and a place but it's not the absolute Rule and here's the thing, you always know, right? You always know the the temperature of the room, so to speak, right? And, you know, when you can talk about things and what things you can talk about that moment, well, I remember what I was going to say earlier, there's a What with all these things in mind? Understanding presidency, understanding keys. Understanding legal Administration. And that there is an order to the priesthood. You're not justified without a legal claim to keys, but at the same time, just because you have the keys. If you're, if you're going to question your file leaders, Or not sustain.

2:59:26 People don't be stupid about it. Don't no, don't go. And question the authorities that are there in existence and be stupid about the way it because there are ways where you can really just not do it, but be bold but mashed a boldness with love, that's the thing that keeps coming back to me in everything. With with these principles is back to Owen Woodruff, he should have stood up with his opinion. So we like why should stand up for what we believe to be true principles be home. And and not proud to be able to reason with each other, but don't do it. It's don't be stupid when you do it. When you when you when you criticize or and and try to set people in order, do it with a spirit, try so hard and even realize maybe you could be wrong too.

3:00:14 And there's so much that goes into play here. You know, there's no one rule I think we've observed No, what would you say? That's right? Yeah, I think that's right. I think you're 100% correct there Michael. so, Well man, we've covered a lot. This was great. I am so glad you came on to talk about this because again, we're so fractured as a people. And at some point there has to be a call to Unity, even if that Unity is spread out over distance there, still has to be some Unity. We have to begin to see each other as how it was one. We're working for the same goal, unless you get to the minutiae of it, where I'm paying my tithing to this guy and he's using it to build a mansion in the community. And I really the work I'm doing is building up the priesthood Council and and or the president of the council. Maybe I should look at that or, you know, but if we can get past, those little manutius of where the tie thing is going or, you know, You know, these claims to Authority and begin to say, we are all really having the same goal, keeping the keys on the earth having, right?

3:01:38 Theo having righteous families, living the patriarchal order of marriage. Having a buttload of kids who we try our best to teach correct principles so that they can be tools in the hands of the Lord to change the world. Those are all things that the fundamentalist that we have in common. Mmm. Yep. Yep. And we shouldn't be By each other, right? I think, I think too often we've looked at priesthood and keys and presidency as a very limited pie, right? Yeah, and lights, when you do it that way, and when you do it that way, it builds walls, it builds an inability to communicate and to work together.

3:02:22 And we need to understand that. And that's why I keep thinking about that. That statement by Brigham Young about. We're going to pass out those keys to make sure that it never goes away it. There's no limit on the amount of priesthood, Authority and power that the Lord can pass out. We just have to be willing. For those groups of people who think that their content was, we got a council. We have all the people that we need, we were successful, we don't have these problems. If you don't play by the principles, and by the rules that, I think you, and I have articulated tonight, you will find yourself, spiritually, dead. And in a gridlock in your presiding forms and you will not be able to be led by the spirit of the Lord. Because even though there seems to be order in a seems to be all alone, Zai all as well as Ian.

3:03:18 I guarantee you To an extent. The spirit of the Lord is grieved in your counsels and you're not receiving the light and knowledge that you would, if you were living by these principles. And if you're following the order of presidency and respecting the keys in the Quorum at I would say as well. Absolutely. Well Michael, this has been awesome. I appreciate it. So, very much. Is there anything else you want to say in conclusion? No, I think I think that wraps up for me just very grateful for the opportunity to come on again for a third time. And oh man, my prayers just a people can really resonate with this and understand and less. Let's go build the kingdom of God. Be better than we have been Absol this as a people. Absolutely.

3:04:05 Amen to that. All right, everybody will talk to you next time. Bye.