Episode #19 Priesthood, Priesthood Keys & Presidency W/ Michael Ness

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One of the greatest points of
contention between Mormons of

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all different groups has always
been who's in charge and who has

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the keys now to get that proper
answer to that question, there's

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a lot of principles that need to
be understood first on this

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episode.
Michael Nest comes back on the

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podcast to discuss that very
topic.

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We do a deep dive into
priesthood, priesthood keys, and

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presidency as we compare and
contrast.

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Those three topics.
I think you'll find that certain

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assumptions.
We may have made about these

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topics.
Might be incomplete as we look

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at what former prophets Apostles
and scriptures have said about

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these things.
That's next on this edition of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
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Your listing to the Mormon
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Welcome back to the Mormon
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All right.
Well, I'm back again here on the

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podcast.
With, with someone, I absolutely

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love talking with Michael Ness.
He's been on the show a time or

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two before, but I always enjoy
his insight and I feel like he's

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always got something really
interesting to say.

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So dude, Michael.
Thanks for coming back on, man.

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Oh, you're welcome.
And thank you so much for that

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introduction.
I appreciate being here.

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Well, good deal.
So, When we had talked before

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you wanted to talk about
presiding and keys, right?

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Yeah I'd say so it's a way to
put it it is there a back story

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here that you want to share on
why this was coming coming to

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you?
You know, I don't remember

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exactly what we were talking
about, but I remember very

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clearly.
Yeah, you, and I had talked and

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had a conversation about what
was going on here in Missouri.

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And the next day I got to work,
you know?

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And I just remember, we're
putting in post beams for a deck

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and it just hit me this topic.
I said, I know what I need to

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get on the show again, talk
about and so I sent you a text

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saying, I like to talk about
Using the priesthood and keys in

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the preseason being distinct
from presidency in the

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priesthood.
Right?

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Is that kind of where?
So you sent me kind of an

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outline here.
And yes, I'm going to read this

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real quick and then I want you
to comment on it a little bit

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and it says, I will give you a
key that will never rust.

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If you will stay with the
majority of The Twelve Apostles

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and the records of the church,
you will never be led astray.

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Now that's quoted from the young
woman's journal in December of

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2006.
Page 5 43.

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Also see the Ensign.
June 94.

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Page 15.
What do you make of that

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statement?
Oh, dude, that's one of the ones

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that I first came across.
You know, the church uses that

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one really strong as a as an
indication that If you just

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follow the Brethren or in the
church, you know, the Quorum of

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The Twelve that just follow
them, they're being led by the

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spirit no matter what.
This is a key, you know, stay

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with the church right?
Because for a long time.

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Yeah.
At least since Nabu the

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mainstream corporate Church,
they haven't had any split sir

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or deviations or anything in the
corm has been, you know, if not

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United on everything, you know,
personality-wise, you know, more

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or less.
The direction at any given time

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that Quorum has as not split,
right?

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And so that's the idea is just,
you know, if you're dissatisfied

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with the Brethren, the stay with
the stay with the church, So I'm

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going to share a story here real
quick that just came out today,

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interesting.
I read it this morning when I

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got to work and it made my blood
boil to be right, honest with

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you.
But I think this ties back into

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this statement.
Okay, because I don't.

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I don't necessarily agree with
that statement or do I we can

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talk about that in a minute but
I'm going to tell you why.

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I don't agree with it.
Is the story that came out of

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Arizona, it was an AP news
article, and it's about a family

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that lives in Arizona and the
dad was sexually molesting his

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daughters.
He goes in and he confesses to

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his Bishop.
The bishop.

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Instead of saying stop right
there, bring your wife in and

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then getting the wife and the
daughters to safety.

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He doesn't do that instead, he
does exactly what the handbook

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tells him to do.
Which is to call the church

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attorneys.
The helpline is called and the

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church attorneys.
Tell him you're under no

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obligation to tell, talk to the
authorities or anything else.

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Long story short, Those girls
are left in that home for

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another seven years.
Oh, jeez.

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Now.
When, when I think about that

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story and I think about that
statement, this is what happens

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when you sell your agency down
the river.

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Right?
When you don't question, when

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you ought to question, when you
take, you know, when you just

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blindly follow, And I found it
interesting that that story came

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out.
Just today this morning, right?

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Before you, and I do the
podcast, you can't make this up.

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I mean, the fact that that comes
out when we're doing this show

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this episode, I find absolutely
amazing.

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I think he put it really well
regarding agency and there's

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another statement that goes
hand-in-hand with this.

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It's also used, you know, which
is a quote from President

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Woodrow saying that the Lord
would never suffer the president

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of the church to lead the people
astray.

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And I wish I'd gone back to try
to find more on when that kind

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of rhetoric and that kind of
speak began to be introduced.

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I've seen that from actually
before, before the 1890, or 1891

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statement from alleged obscene
that Unfortunately, from Joseph

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F Smith in the 1880s and the
Journal of discourses.

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And I believe The first person
to ever say so but it was

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qualified was Brigham Young.
And if I'm not mistaken, Brigham

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said, if the people are
righteous, the Lord will never

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suffer the president of the
church to lead them astray and

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so it was qualified.
But then over time it becomes

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this, this monster that takes
away your agency and your

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accountability because you just
passed you passed that your

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ability to make those decisions
and most judgments up the the

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chain.
Speak.

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Yeah.
No, I think there's some

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definite problems with that idea
of just no matter what happens,

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you stay with the church, look
the Lord.

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The Lord definitely gave us a
priesthood structure, but he

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didn't give us that structure to
prevent us from being our own

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moral agents, in certain
scenarios, right?

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And when you take all the quotes
or ideas pertain to this subject

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and compare them against each
other, you can actually find

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several others.
Brigham, Young and others who

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say, what a disaster it would be
for this people to be led astray

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by one man, right?
If you know, and it would be

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better for people to be led by
the revelations of God to know

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if you know if he was led by the
spirit or not right?

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You know John Taylor talked
about DNC 107 at least one

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instance that I'm aware of where
he said that if your church

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authorities are not living up to
the laws given to us, we have

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the right to remove them from
Office India.

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See. 107 has those bylaws why?
If it was truly a key that would

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never rust that the majority,
you know was lead you, you know,

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it's a to safety Lynn and always
be true.

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Then why would the why were
those outlines given right

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there?
You know, the judge the

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president of the church, the
next zero sense.

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It's not consistent with the
scripture, right?

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And the other thing is that
Again, I go back to Joseph.

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Never asked anybody just to
surrender their will to him,

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never right.
He always pointed towards the

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Savior, right?
You go.

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And in many ways, Joseph was,
perhaps the most egalitarian

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leader we've ever seen.
As far as a religion, right?

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I mean, this was a guy who
wasn't about hoarding power.

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This was a guy who was about
sharing that power.

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One thing, I remember reading
was his ability to just grab

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people off the street to form a
quorum so to speak, right?

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And we've talked about before in
some of those horns, the Council

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of 50 he made.
Sure non-mormons were just as

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involved as Mormons And now I
was I was wondering about this

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kind of a thing you today or
yesterday as well as if you

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compared his or the church you
know, under Joseph to other

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other churches of the time.
It makes me wonder how common

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the term or title president was
Versus other titles, you know,

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like obviously the Catholics
have the pope for examples.

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But what I mean is that the
president by itself as a term

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seems to denote a more
libertarian or American

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perspective, you know of that
you're elected?

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That you're sustained in your
position that you're a steward

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of a church that's actually
Christ, the Lord's, that's not

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your church.
Right, I'll talk to me.

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Break in.
Thank you.

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So yeah, I don't know.
I don't know how that Stacks out

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against other churches of his
day assistant.

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This is the thought that I was
thinking but not statement about

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the key that will never rust.
Yeah, the original source for

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that is allegedly, the young
woman's journal and December of

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1906 and it's a attributed to a
guy named William g Nelson.

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You know, and I did a really
brief search on William g

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Nelson, and all that came up
clothes rustling, no sentence.

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So yeah, so group Really helped
me out there was a, what the

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search results.
So you've never heard of them, I

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was gonna say you couldn't find
anything at all on William g

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Nelson.
I didn't make it, I didn't do

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that.
I didn't really do a whole lot

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of diligent study on that one,
but what?

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One of the websites on this
quote, you know, the kind of was

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done bunking at a little amazed,
they said that there wasn't even

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a publication for the old
woman's journal in that month of

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December.
The last one for that year was

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September.
And so there's even a question

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Question of, that's a valid
source and yet it's been quoted

226
00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:19,000
in church periodicals ever since
it's also a little sketchy

227
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,800
because it's a 50.
It's a 50 year old.

228
00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:26,500
That's a quote that arises 50
years.

229
00:14:26,700 --> 00:14:29,100
After Joseph Smith as already
died.

230
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,800
Right around the same time that
was church is dealing with the

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00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,900
temple wall case, okay?
Here in Missouri and I was

232
00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:40,700
looking into that a little bit
and it looks like the original

233
00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:43,400
ruling for the temple.
La case was that the Supreme

234
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,100
Court actually ruled that the
reorganized church was the legal

235
00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:51,200
and spiritual successor, to
Joseph Smith to church.

236
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:54,000
And so I could totally see a
statement like this.

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00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:00,000
Being fabricated and presented
as a find afterwards showing.

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00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,900
Oh Joseph said the follow the
majority of the 12 because

239
00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:06,200
that's what happened in all the
is Brigham Young in the majority

240
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,100
of the twelve went West.
And you know, you had a few

241
00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:13,400
others in the Quorum of The
Twelve who did not like William

242
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:18,900
Smith, who was James J Strang
and lime and white who went off

243
00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:20,800
by himself.
And they were both members of

244
00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:25,000
the Quorum of The Twelve, but
the majority fall of Brigham So

245
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,600
that's what I see.
Historically in this, this

246
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,200
quote, that appeared is a
harkening back to so when the

247
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,700
are LDS church broke off from
from the other form of the 12, I

248
00:15:38,708 --> 00:15:40,000
think that just stands to
reason.

249
00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:44,800
Well and I think it's suspect
when when you're starting to see

250
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,600
things that question the
sources, right?

251
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,300
I mean, when you find something
online that says, hey in 1906,

252
00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:54,100
the young woman's Journal,
wasn't even around.

253
00:15:54,500 --> 00:16:00,500
Eight and you can't find
anything of any significance on,

254
00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:02,800
you know, a guy named William g
Nelson.

255
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:08,800
How do we know that that one?
He even existed right to is

256
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,300
this, you know, is this really
coming from somebody's father,

257
00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:15,500
right?
Who's just expressing a view?

258
00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:20,200
Look, you and I can talk all day
long on this podcast and in our

259
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,300
homes about things that we feel
or ideas that we have.

260
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,800
But that doesn't make those
ideas doctor.

261
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,000
No, and it is.
This haven't taught Joseph.

262
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:35,000
Even if it was just remembered
by the 12, when I think it

263
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,000
probably should have been.
Right.

264
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,300
You know, you know, that
something like that was

265
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:41,200
important because when David
Hyrum Smith and Joseph Smith, a

266
00:16:41,208 --> 00:16:44,400
third or coming out to Utah
under Brigham Young, and John

267
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,400
Taylor, they could have slapped
him with us in the face with

268
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,100
that kind of stuff, you know,
your father taught this, you

269
00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:53,000
know, or, you know, or Wilford
Woodruff when the, you know,

270
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,900
when that hearing Actually going
on, you know, in the temple,

271
00:16:55,900 --> 00:16:59,800
walk case, why wasn't this kind
of stuff presented, you know,

272
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:05,500
long before 1906, this was my
question, there's a, what I do

273
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:07,700
now.
I think you'd have to look at

274
00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:11,300
the history of Joseph Smith to.
I think, I can't remember how

275
00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:15,000
many many members of The Twelve
apostatize during the curtain,

276
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,300
period.
Do you remember off the top of

277
00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:20,300
your head?
No, not of.

278
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:21,500
Not an exact figure.
I know.

279
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:23,300
It was a loft, though.
I knew it was a fox.

280
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:25,800
Only the British mission.
Ian, the British Mission from

281
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,200
The Twelve Apostles, pretty much
provided the temporal and

282
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,500
spiritual salvation of the
church at that point, right?

283
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:34,900
And so you get the feeling, it
was a lot, right?

284
00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:39,400
So if if this was something that
was actually uttered by Joseph

285
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:46,100
Smith, I would be surprised
considering all of the apostasy

286
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:48,600
that he'd seen happen.
Sure?

287
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:54,300
Yeah, I'm sure that was a huge.
That was a huge trial for him to

288
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,800
us.
Even with a we read that in the

289
00:17:56,808 --> 00:17:59,900
Liberty Jail stuff, you know
that's right after the curtain

290
00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:03,500
boss to see and now he's in jail
and he's just feeling low

291
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,300
everyone except for his very
closest friends and family have

292
00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:11,000
deserted them.
Yeah yeah that point yeah

293
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:18,300
absolutely so yeah I find And
I'm glad you included it because

294
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:24,400
I looked at it before time or to
myself, and it's really hard to

295
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,300
substantiate that quote, right?
I think it is and I think it's

296
00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:32,200
an even harder to substantiate
it.

297
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,500
As I can Everlasting, rule of
thumb that, like, all the way

298
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:37,600
back into this day.
After all the changes that have

299
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,000
happened that if you just
sustained the majority of the

300
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,700
12, you'll be fine when a
prophecy like that.

301
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:48,300
If it's a valid thing or if it's
a, you know, To me that that was

302
00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:52,100
reflective of, particularly the
Nauvoo circumstances after the

303
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:54,800
martyrdom, where people would
have remembered.

304
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,700
Oh, He says to follow the 12.
Let's follow Brigham Young.

305
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,700
You know, right?
Where it's we're very much is a

306
00:19:01,708 --> 00:19:06,100
descriptor of that exact moment.
I could see that being a key

307
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:09,400
relative to that instance.
You know because Joseph was

308
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,900
worried about what would happen
after he died at that moment.

309
00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:17,700
But to say that that's an
everlasting rule of thumb for or

310
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:22,100
you know, with the church I have
an issue with it because it

311
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:25,500
does, as you say, the passes the
buck of agency.

312
00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:28,600
All Lay down the line.
And what is the fruits of that?

313
00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:33,600
If you're a bishop learning,
that somebody's molesting their

314
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,000
daughters and you toe the
company line and just call that

315
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,800
help number to curtain and
McConkey.

316
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:48,500
Yeah, it's not and it's it's it
really doesn't.

317
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,000
I was raised in the church.
So this this is coming from a

318
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,300
very interesting place for me.
To an extent.

319
00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:01,200
I can say, yes.
You're putting your face.

320
00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:05,000
In in something that you were
raised in when you if you can,

321
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,200
if you if you follow this to ski
the so this alleged key.

322
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,600
But at the same time with a
growth that I've seen in myself,

323
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,800
once I've come to challenge it,
it's that kind of faith that

324
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,100
you're putting in, your leaders
is not near the kind of faith

325
00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:22,200
that you're putting in the, your
ability to receive the spirit of

326
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,000
Revelation through the power of
the Holy Ghost, you're not going

327
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,000
to grow near as much without,
you know, that that testimony

328
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,700
that you get.
Putting that little face and

329
00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:36,600
when God has to give you, it's a
nice night and day to me in my

330
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,600
own experience.
The growth that I've received

331
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,400
over the last four years of
cattle, my life of challenging

332
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,900
this Paradigm is exponential, I
think?

333
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,000
Yeah.
And I think the other thing is

334
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:54,500
that, if the whole point of us
being here on Earth, according

335
00:20:54,500 --> 00:21:02,600
to, to Mormon Doctrine, is to
develop the type of Spiritual

336
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,600
character needing.
To be.

337
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,400
So that one day we can be as God
is surrendering your agency.

338
00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:15,400
To somebody else who's just as
mortal as we are.

339
00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:20,000
Doesn't seem to fit that
Paradigm real.

340
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,100
Well, right doesn't seem to
notice it.

341
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,300
It would be a lot like me
saying, you know, I really want

342
00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:29,300
to play pro football and I think
the best way to do it is drink

343
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:32,600
beer and eat pizza all day.
It kind of seems like the

344
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:37,100
antithesis of the work you need
to put in to get to that point.

345
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,300
Do you like psychology at all?
Yeah, well bit there's a there's

346
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:44,100
a psychologist.
I might butcher.

347
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:46,600
His name is one of the
Australian ones, you know, he He

348
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,600
was a contemporary of Freud,
Carl Jung, or you.

349
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,600
He said something.
He said something interesting to

350
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,500
me is he said, if there is no if
there is no true morality, if

351
00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:01,200
there is an, if there is
internal and external

352
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:07,500
compulsion, you know, because if
you're externally, forcing

353
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:10,700
someone and compelling someone
to make a choice, there's no

354
00:22:10,700 --> 00:22:13,000
morality and what they do
because it's under duress.

355
00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:18,300
But even if there's an internal,
Compulsion for them to do or not

356
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:22,500
to do something based on a
society's expectation, there's

357
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:27,100
not true morality based on, you
know, or accountability in their

358
00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:29,800
decision.
So going back to agency again,

359
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,600
you know, with that kind of with
the way that the church, the

360
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,800
church teaches for the gospel I
should say the gospel teaches,

361
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,800
the importance of agency, even
to the to the degree that I've

362
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,600
gone over to rob you of your
agency.

363
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,600
He would cease to be God.
Yeah.

364
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,000
But then to have the internal
locus of control or of

365
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,400
compulsion on people,
individually that you can't go.

366
00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:56,800
You can't even question this
this quote about the 12 apostles

367
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,100
and this key that will never us,
you know, because because of

368
00:23:00,108 --> 00:23:03,600
your societies expectation,
you're still robbing people of a

369
00:23:03,608 --> 00:23:07,100
moral opportunity to exercise a
choice.

370
00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:12,900
Yeah and again, compulsion was
was the adversaries plan, right?

371
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:15,700
It's interesting to me that
nothing's really new Under the

372
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:19,100
Sun, right?
We we are we are still having

373
00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:23,400
the same debate that we had in
the council's of heaven, right?

374
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:29,600
Can man can man rule himself and
if so can he be successful in

375
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,300
doing it?
And it is the same argument.

376
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:36,900
It is the same argument.
I'll just go back to a Joseph

377
00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:39,800
Smith said, you know, I teach
them correct principles and they

378
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,600
govern themselves, but I think
that it's, it's based on the

379
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,100
idea that you have to be in
possession of correct principles

380
00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:49,000
before you can govern yourself
truly, right?

381
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,100
So, and that's the whole point
of, you know, this episode, my

382
00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:57,800
opinion is talking about these
principles versus personalities.

383
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,700
People want to follow the
president of the church or the

384
00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:05,700
president of the priesthood in
The more the senior Apostle, I

385
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,500
don't think anyone say for what
I want to talk about on this

386
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,700
because I want to get back to
principal.

387
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,100
How about, how about, how to
govern ourselves versus just

388
00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:18,000
towing a line, because the
priest you need to sit at the

389
00:24:18,008 --> 00:24:23,000
feet of the priesthood and Obey,
you know, and don't get me

390
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,200
wrong, I believe in order, I
believe, I believe in all the

391
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,900
revelations that Joseph Smith
gave, I believe in the order of

392
00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:33,000
the kingdom of God.
I believe that those are things

393
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,900
that you should sustain and not
take, take for granted if you

394
00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:41,800
were to disagree.
But at the same time, You know,

395
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,500
one of them the gentleman I
consider my life.

396
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:47,200
I leader in the priest and he
says if you're going to question

397
00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:50,300
the authority of the priesthood,
go ahead and just don't be

398
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:53,900
stupid about right.
Right.

399
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:56,500
And I think you bring up.
I think he brings up a good

400
00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:57,400
point there.
Right?

401
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,600
Is that what we're talking
about?

402
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,700
You know, being independent, if
you will right being coming up

403
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:08,700
with your own answers, At the
same time when there when there

404
00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:12,900
is order there just like you
would be careful on how you

405
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:16,800
question your your employer.
So you're going to be a little,

406
00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:20,900
a little, a little careful in
how you you question.

407
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,700
Somebody in authority and
priesthood Authority, right?

408
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:35,400
You're going to be careful on
your you that so with you, go

409
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:41,400
ahead, the idea, there's a lot
of I think We'll talk about this

410
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,400
more.
I'm sure there's some disdain in

411
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,300
some circles for the label of
independent, especially in

412
00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:50,800
fundamentalism.
The idea is that you need to be

413
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,300
tied to someone with authority
and I actually believe that.

414
00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:55,800
I believe that you need to be
Authority.

415
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,800
Is this huge?
You can't.

416
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,100
I don't believe you can do
anything without the authority

417
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:03,800
of the priesthood.
That's what keys Force

418
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:09,800
presidency is also about.
And so I reject for myself, the

419
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,000
title of independent
fundamentalist, based on the

420
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,300
connotation it has.
For example, there's some people

421
00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:18,500
from certain priest of lines
through say that, you know,

422
00:26:18,508 --> 00:26:21,900
Lauren wooly said never to
collect tithing, never to

423
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:25,300
organize or hold meetings, and
these people are now labeling

424
00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:27,700
themselves independent, but they
don't even ordained people to

425
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:30,800
the priesthood and they
displease them plural, marriage,

426
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:33,100
you know, but they all baptized
and they won't perform other

427
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:35,500
ordinances that I think are
obviously kind of part of the

428
00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:37,200
plan.
You know, if you're going to be

429
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,400
doing, if you're going to be
solemnizing, plural marriage as

430
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,800
you might as well be baptizing
your kids in conferring Oleg us

431
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,900
the bottom.
So I reject the title in a way

432
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:50,100
of independent for myself and I
don't consider my I don't I have

433
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:54,100
a there's a structure the that I
work with them but I like the

434
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:58,400
idea of being Sovereign and I've
being offered sovereignty and of

435
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,700
offering such true sovereignty
to other people.

436
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,400
Yeah.
And that being connected in this

437
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,800
way, you know, the kingdom of
God is a family organization and

438
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,500
so no one's truly, ideally
independent of each other and

439
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:16,600
without accountability.
There's also trouble we're going

440
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,000
to get into that too.
And so the sovereignty is what

441
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,000
we should be after.
As individuals, you know, is

442
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:30,800
what I have is my take on that.
No, I I think that's a, that's a

443
00:27:30,808 --> 00:27:33,100
good point that has to be.
As well.

444
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:39,700
Is that having some sort of
structure is?

445
00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:44,600
It's, it's a good way to have
checks and balances on yourself,

446
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,800
right?
Because let's face it if we were

447
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,400
left to our completely to our
own devices, I'm sure mankind

448
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,800
can find.
Plenty of ways to screw stuff

449
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,300
up, myself included, right?
Uh sure.

450
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,700
Without someone to talk to, to
bounce ideas, off of you, you

451
00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:03,600
really are kind of a Rudderless
ship, right?

452
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,800
Because even the scriptures,
right?

453
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,100
We may read the same scripture
and come up with a couple

454
00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:17,600
different interpretations of it.
And so being able to one, have

455
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,100
someone there that you can
bounce that off of and then to

456
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:24,500
be humble enough to, to take
what someone else has to say,

457
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:29,900
and maybe together, you know,
reason it out and and come to

458
00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:34,500
logical well-founded Agent.
That's the whole point of the

459
00:28:34,508 --> 00:28:38,000
school of the prophets, I
believe in in our church history

460
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,600
was for that whole thing is,
they were studying the

461
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,300
scriptures.
They were studying ways to teach

462
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:47,800
the gospel in an environment
like that where you're helping

463
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,400
each other and reasoning with
each other, as men reason with

464
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,200
each other, getting the Holy
Ghost.

465
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:55,700
And we're scripture was no
longer a private interpretation

466
00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:59,000
as Peter says, in the New
Testament, but it comes by

467
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,200
prophecy came by the Holy Ghost
as it was given to us.

468
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,800
Yes, you know, I think that
there's safety in that, you

469
00:29:05,808 --> 00:29:08,800
know, that that mode of
operations there.

470
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,800
Yeah, no, I do too.
So we've talked about this

471
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,600
quote, a little bit and the
history of it, where it comes

472
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,500
from.
Where did you want to take that?

473
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:25,900
Next, we can take it a little
deeper on that, or we can leave

474
00:29:25,900 --> 00:29:28,400
it and move on.
You know, I think it's your

475
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,300
cousin, I enjoy listening to
you.

476
00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:33,400
So Leslie, there's a very
briefly.

477
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,000
Let's In 1902, another quote,
about 24 years earlier than this

478
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,000
first one came out as well.
Saying the Lord would never

479
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,600
suffer the majority of this
people to be led away or

480
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,200
deceived by Impostors.
Nor would he allow the records

481
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,600
of this church to fall into the
hands of the enemy.

482
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,900
So again it's a very late as a
very light source, both of these

483
00:29:56,900 --> 00:29:59,400
are appearing right after you
know, a few years after the

484
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,400
temple.
Walk case, this is after

485
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,300
Brigham.
Young has died.

486
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:04,600
Is after John Taylor after
Wilford, Woodruff.

487
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,900
Even after Lorenzo Snow.
You know, these statements come

488
00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:13,200
up and so So it's just it's
really interesting time frame

489
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,800
wise.
It's they become highly suspect

490
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,300
to me.
Were you able to find anyone who

491
00:30:19,300 --> 00:30:24,100
took credit for that last?
Last boat.

492
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,800
You mean a fulfilling it?
Well no.

493
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,700
I mean who would you finding
evidence?

494
00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:32,100
Who said it?
No.

495
00:30:32,100 --> 00:30:34,200
I think it was attributed to
Joseph Smith though.

496
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,500
But we don't know where where it
was recorded at or in my notes

497
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:42,900
in my notes here in front of me
I don't have anything on that

498
00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:47,100
but except for that it's in the
Improvement era 5th of January

499
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:49,700
1902.
Okay.

500
00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:57,400
Yeah, the only reason I ask is I
just wanted to get a feel for

501
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,300
for where these quotes are
coming.

502
00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:03,100
Because look, I'll also say that
these dates are suspect to me as

503
00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:07,800
well because All right.
Now I'm going to sound like I

504
00:31:07,808 --> 00:31:09,600
put on my tinfoil hat for a
minute.

505
00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:12,800
This is the birth of the
Progressive Era, right?

506
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:19,500
This early 1900s and the LDS
church during this time, take a

507
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:26,800
very pro-government stance but
they're doing very guilty.

508
00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:29,600
They become very guilty of not
obeying the covenants that they

509
00:31:29,608 --> 00:31:32,400
made at the manifesto and they
kind of bend over backwards

510
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,900
afterwards to kind of appease
the government, right?

511
00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:38,200
And so all these quotes The fact
they're coming in this same

512
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,800
general time.
The early 1900's really raises a

513
00:31:42,808 --> 00:31:47,000
red flag.
For me like is this thing is

514
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,600
this the era in which the church
was really bending over

515
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:58,600
backwards to, to become, you
know, Full full Americans.

516
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,700
So to speak, right?
Or let me, let me rephrase that

517
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:06,100
to find to find you.
No favor in the eyes of the

518
00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:10,300
government because also we know
that like the word of wisdom was

519
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:13,700
never asked on Temple recommend
interview questions until

520
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:18,400
prohibition comes around, and
then it becomes a big deal,

521
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,100
right?
Yeah, I have a, I have a family

522
00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:24,000
story about that.
Actually, you know, I don't

523
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,500
remember what your grandfather.
It is, but it's online eat the

524
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:27,900
meals.
My family.

525
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,600
My grandma would always tell me
first off is she has, she has a

526
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,900
certificate in her possession
from one of her grandfather's on

527
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:37,600
work.
If from the presidency of the

528
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,500
church for working on the Salt
Lake Temple, you know, as a

529
00:32:41,508 --> 00:32:48,300
granite worker or whatever.
And later in life.

530
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,900
He always, he had been chewing
tobacco and smoking a pipe since

531
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:53,500
he was like seven years old.
Okay?

532
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:59,000
Like he came, he came over, he
came over from Denmark in an

533
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,200
1866 or 1868 or something like
that.

534
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:06,300
And and he has started smoking
and chewing tobacco since he was

535
00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:11,300
77 years old and walking walking
across the plains dude.

536
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:19,800
And he gets, he's an old guy.
Prohibition comes around and and

537
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,000
he goes in, for example,
recommend interview, you know,

538
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,300
he's been going to the temple as
whole life is a member of the

539
00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:26,500
church.
And his stake president has

540
00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:29,400
bishop or whatever.
You know, is really nervous

541
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,500
because, you know, old man.
Nielsen's been smoking a pipe

542
00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:36,700
and chewing tobacco, his whole
life, and he goes through the

543
00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:38,400
interview.
And he's worthy right up to this

544
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,300
point.
He says, now, now, brother,

545
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:45,900
Nielsen, I have to tell you, You
know, there's some there's been

546
00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:48,700
some changes and we can't give
you your temple recommend

547
00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:51,900
because you're because of your
use of tobacco.

548
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:56,700
He says, no I'm worth, you know?
And they explain you know, he's

549
00:33:56,700 --> 00:33:58,700
like no, I'm worthy.
It's a wait.

550
00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:01,700
But don't you smoke?
Don't, you don't chew tobacco

551
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,300
said I quit.
Oh, when did you quit today?

552
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:10,900
You know, and my grandmother
gives that as a as an anecdote

553
00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:13,199
for faithfulness to the, to the,
to the prophet.

554
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,400
Over to the works of the word of
the Lord and nearly killed them

555
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:19,600
to quit.
Apparently he quit cold turkey

556
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,400
and it nearly killed him but he
want he did not want to be

557
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,400
deprived from the blessings of
the temple but you're right.

558
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,199
It did not.
That was her not required if of

559
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:33,100
the people until prohibition.
And that man, I went his entire

560
00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:38,699
life up to that point in full
fellowship and even even John

561
00:34:38,699 --> 00:34:43,199
Smith, Joseph Smith's brother
should patriarch to the church.

562
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:46,300
Chew, Tobacco, his whole life,
right, right?

563
00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:47,900
I don't ya.
Again, the only reason I bring

564
00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:51,900
that up is just to to make try
to make this connection that

565
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:54,699
that this is the birth of the
Progressive Era within the

566
00:34:54,699 --> 00:34:59,100
United States and when the
federal government's really

567
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:01,700
consolidating power.
And and I think the church is

568
00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:05,300
feeling a certain amount of
pressure for towing some lines

569
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:09,500
and to make sure that no one
steps out of out of line and

570
00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:14,000
these quotes seem too To Echo
that statement.

571
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,100
Yeah there's a I mean I'll put
all my tinfoil hat to for a

572
00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:20,900
second.
You know as you say I have a lot

573
00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:27,700
of reservations regarding that
this time period as well because

574
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,400
in 1898.
So right before the turn of the

575
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:35,100
century Wilford Woodruff ends up
going to Bohemian Grove in

576
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:39,000
California and he died owing on
the way back from his trip

577
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,800
there.
And a lot of the people No.

578
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,800
You know, I've taught me and
told me that the reason was

579
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,200
because when he around the time
that he issued the manifestos,

580
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,400
he told the government,
essentially that I will not, you

581
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,700
know, I will discourage the use
of or the doctrine of plural

582
00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:03,400
marriage in the church, we will
break up the United orders so

583
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,700
that we will not be economically
independent from the American

584
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,100
economy essentially.
And I will not use my influence

585
00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:13,300
as president of the church to
All the people to vote as a

586
00:36:13,300 --> 00:36:17,100
block.
And after around that time,

587
00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:21,400
period George Q Cannon and some
other separated, the church into

588
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,700
Democrat and Republican parties
to hear a Republican, or a

589
00:36:24,707 --> 00:36:27,300
Democrat.
Now, which completely divided

590
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:29,400
the people.
Except for, I think there was

591
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,000
one instance after that, where
Wilford Woodruff did use his

592
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,500
influence to have the people
vote as a block and they called

593
00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:39,600
him to account for that and he
died, you know, in the human

594
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,700
growth or after his visit there,
I think is what, that's what

595
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:45,900
I've been told is that because
he went Go on his promise and

596
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,600
are not using his position as
president of the church to exit

597
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,500
to tell the people to vote.
As a block.

598
00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:55,700
He did that.
And those people, those Elites,

599
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,500
you know, the Illuminati,
whatever here they called him in

600
00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:02,000
to account for that.
And he ended up dying after that

601
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,900
trip.
And he was the interesting thing

602
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:07,500
too, is Wilfred Woodruff was
four years older than John

603
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:12,400
Taylor was And so he was older,
right?

604
00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:17,200
He was old, you know, he was
making it and he always was

605
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,500
saying stuff, like, I believe
that John Taylor would have

606
00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:21,400
outlived me, you know, and stuff
like that.

607
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,900
So there's, it's just it's
interesting to me, you know,

608
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:27,800
that he ends up dying after that
trip and that John Taylor died

609
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,400
in hiding, you know, and all
that, I don't think John Taylor

610
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,700
was poison.
I think it was just the

611
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:36,400
circumstances, but it's just
when you look into those

612
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,900
details, that level, it's just,
it's just Very disheartening, I

613
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:43,500
think.
But anyway.

614
00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:46,500
Sorry, I took us down that road.
I just found it interesting.

615
00:37:47,300 --> 00:37:50,000
No, I think it's I think it's
all fair here.

616
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:54,900
So what was your last question
that I find out who that was

617
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:56,400
attributed to?
I don't.

618
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,600
Yeah.
You said you couldn't see

619
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,700
anybody that that was a tribute
to, which is fine because we've

620
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:03,400
heard the all those quotes
before, right?

621
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:09,700
I mean, if if you sat in in any
LDS Ward for any period of time,

622
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,400
those Are statements that you
hear the is you're right?

623
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,000
You're 100%, right?
The one of the one of the

624
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,000
websites that I was looking at,
I think it was called exploring

625
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,900
Mormonism, or something like
that, the guy States in analysis

626
00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:27,800
to that first, quote that if you
stay with them or drawer, the

627
00:38:27,808 --> 00:38:30,700
majority of the 12 and the
records of the church, you'll

628
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:33,200
never be led astray.
He makes kind of snarky comments

629
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,000
on there, wouldn't that suppose
that you would have access to

630
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,400
the records of the church?
If you can Directions of the

631
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,900
church, but the fact of the
matter is that by and large, the

632
00:38:44,908 --> 00:38:48,700
people are, the people are kept
from the records of the church.

633
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,700
And if you want to go back to
1886, type stuff, you know, L

634
00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:56,300
Jon Udell, his journal and his
records or they're not public,

635
00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:58,800
John Taylor's, diary from that
top time period.

636
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,200
They're not public, you know,
these records.

637
00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:06,000
A lot of them are not public and
so how can this truly be a key

638
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,600
to us becomes the question?
If we have no access to the

639
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,400
records?
Some of the church in these time

640
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,800
periods.
Allegedly worse or schisms are

641
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,700
developing right?
Right.

642
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,200
Yeah that's a great point.
I hadn't thought about that.

643
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:27,100
I mean Yeah, absolutely.
It it doesn't seem to make sense

644
00:39:27,100 --> 00:39:29,700
and it doesn't seem to follow
even with what the promises.

645
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:33,000
Sure.
Absolutely.

646
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:42,400
Absolutely.
So from there, you have another

647
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,600
prophecy here from John Taylor
that I wanted to hit him.

648
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,600
Sure.
And he and John Taylor says, the

649
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,400
people he saw had become quite
indifferent to the counsel and

650
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,600
advice of the authorities of the
church and we're more interested

651
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,800
in the accumulation of wealth,
then they were in living their

652
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,200
religion.
So great was the destruction of

653
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,200
life within the city that the
blood ran down.

654
00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:13,100
The gutters of Salt Lake City.
And the people were fighting

655
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:17,300
amongst themselves until it
became necessary to remove the

656
00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:20,100
church records across the
Colorado River.

657
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,500
And you say here, that was given
looks like by a sworn affidavit

658
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:28,600
by Edward want.
Yeah.

659
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:34,100
He was a, the son of one of the
Bishops I think of that John

660
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:37,100
Taylor would, you know, there's
a bishop the his father Bishop

661
00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:41,700
blunt was in Cedar City and he
recalls hearing this From John

662
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:44,400
Taylor, when John Taylor is
staying in his dad's house, you

663
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:49,200
know, in Cedar City and the
problem with it kind of matches,

664
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,700
but it a little bit with the
records that idea of the records

665
00:40:52,700 --> 00:40:57,900
being important, but the date
for is January, 9th, 1951.

666
00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:00,900
So that's also kind of late but
I'm actually a big fan of this

667
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:06,000
quote.
I am I am too because it echoes

668
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:13,700
a lot of a previous Vision that
John tailored had why he was in

669
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:14,400
st.
George.

670
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,900
If I'm not mistaken where he saw
just massive destruction across,

671
00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:22,500
not just Salt Lake, but the
entire country and that's the

672
00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:26,600
one where there was like, or the
people turn to cannibalism and,

673
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,300
and he's a prayer circles and
Missouri and stuff like that.

674
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:31,100
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, I think so too.

675
00:41:31,100 --> 00:41:33,900
It very much hearkens to that.
That same idea there.

676
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:37,400
It sounds like him.
Right.

677
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:46,600
Yeah, so that's a That's
something that's interesting to

678
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:53,700
see how that will be fulfilled.
I think because I don't really

679
00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:56,800
know what what useful, you know,
in a big way and I know this

680
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,700
might be controversial and
fundamentalism.

681
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,400
I don't know what use the Lord
has for the church at the

682
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,800
moment.
I'm not saying that the people

683
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,000
can't repent these Bobby setting
people can.

684
00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:12,400
But I mean, as an institution I
really wonder how and as an

685
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,000
organisation, I wonder how
they'll be usable to the Lord

686
00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:17,500
really.
And, and so I, if there was

687
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,700
destruction on this level and
makes me wonder how those

688
00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:25,200
records are going to move to
where they're going to be moved.

689
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:30,000
And How the people that move
them come back into the

690
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,400
priesthood work?
I have.

691
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,700
Those are questions that I have.
I don't really, I don't fully

692
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:36,900
know how that's going to be
fulfilled.

693
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,700
Yeah, no I get what you're
saying.

694
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,500
I do I guess this is why I don't
want to see the LDS church go

695
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:47,300
away, right?
Because I feel like I'm going to

696
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:48,500
say something that sounds
horrible.

697
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:50,900
The LDS church is a great
gateway.

698
00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:53,500
Drug into Mormonism.
Right?

699
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:58,300
If you read in the sense of it's
going to give you a base

700
00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:00,200
knowledge, right?
And that's one of the things.

701
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:06,000
I don't want to see go away as
far as the Lord being able to

702
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,000
preserve those records.
Amongst that kind of

703
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,900
Destruction.
Look, if he could keep the

704
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,700
plates safe, I'm sure.
I'm sure he could do the same

705
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:22,300
with the records but I think
that's fair because I'm be

706
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:24,300
really interesting to see how it
plays out.

707
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:32,700
There's a hesitant to share one
of the one of the yeah I think

708
00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:35,700
you do it.
Do it Michael.

709
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,500
There's a all the cool kids are
doing it.

710
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:41,600
Come on.
Well now, I now want to look bad

711
00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:43,900
if I came in to pressure on
this.

712
00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:48,400
There's a obvious because this
is I don't know, this isn't

713
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,700
noise about a lot but people who
might look, you know, I'm not

714
00:43:51,700 --> 00:43:54,200
going to name names because if I
name names, are big names in

715
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,000
fundamentalism and so I'm not
gonna if they don't, they know

716
00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,700
who they are and others why know
who they are.

717
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,500
Attending.
On how close you want to look

718
00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:09,700
into the letter of Prophecy
versus a spirit of Prophecy.

719
00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:12,300
And I think that there's some
leeway with certain things like

720
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:18,600
that.
There's a there's a partial

721
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,100
fulfillment to this about the
records being moved from the

722
00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:24,900
Colorado across the Colorado
River already.

723
00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:29,200
And I'll, it's not popular, but
I'm going to catch Flack.

724
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,900
I think from some people
probably that there's a, there

725
00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:38,200
was a in the a be in the 90s.
There was a council member named

726
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,700
Joe Joseph Blan.
Thompson, who was removed from

727
00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:46,900
his office in the priesthood
Council to a UB And I think he

728
00:44:46,900 --> 00:44:50,000
was third senior at the time
that he you know, where there

729
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,900
was some controversy there,
there were allegations made

730
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:57,600
against him of that.
He was sexually abusive to some

731
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,400
family members which to my
knowledge.

732
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,300
Now most of the people in the
auv have recanted that but the

733
00:45:05,308 --> 00:45:10,000
damage has, you know, has
Stained his reputation even

734
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,500
though that's been was coming.
Yeah, the damage was done.

735
00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:15,500
Yeah right.
And I know people who've known

736
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:17,000
them.
Learning that you be Council,

737
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,100
who one of the council members
are coming.

738
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:20,800
Them.
Privately said, yeah, that stuff

739
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,500
wasn't true, but Joe was
insubordinate and disobedient to

740
00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:29,500
the council's of the priesthood.
So he was cut off, you know?

741
00:45:30,100 --> 00:45:34,800
Well there was Joe Thompson was
one of the big pushes for

742
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:42,000
tenable work in the AUB after
after they decided that the the

743
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,200
church you know, that the Lord
will no longer.

744
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,900
Accept the offering at the hands
of the LDS church because they

745
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:53,600
gave black Africans, the
priesthood night in the 1970s,

746
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,900
therefore they should go and do
Temple.

747
00:45:55,900 --> 00:46:01,100
Ordinances joke was a big
proponent of that of doing the

748
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:03,000
temple work.
He was involved in that a lot

749
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,700
and so it makes sense that he
would have some sort of access

750
00:46:06,700 --> 00:46:12,300
to some of a UV Temple Records.
Well, any case in the 90s In

751
00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:15,400
around 1994.
So he started having Priests of

752
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:19,800
meetings in Arizona.
And at the home of a man named

753
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,400
Jackson, 10 Jessa.
And he's a, that's a Verona.

754
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,400
Justice father.
Okay, is Jackie Jackson.

755
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,300
Ted Jessup and Some of those may
be Temple.

756
00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:36,800
Records were moved down to
Arizona at that time, period,

757
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,300
you know?
And so, technically across the

758
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:43,700
Colorado River as this Prophecy
from John Taylor says, and we're

759
00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:46,300
in possession of some of the
people there who are meeting

760
00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:50,000
with, with Joe Thompson in the
90s.

761
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,100
And I don't know where the state
of those are.

762
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,900
Now, I've talked to someone
several people.

763
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,900
That's, that's the line of the
priests to die.

764
00:46:57,100 --> 00:47:00,100
Either I claim, I'm not talk to
some people.

765
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,800
There and they say they don't
know where they're at at the

766
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,800
moment either.
And so that's what you know,

767
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,300
it's in the back of my mind, a
big it on on that.

768
00:47:10,300 --> 00:47:13,200
And frankly, I don't know what
share, you know, completely on

769
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,000
that.
I didn't know but I don't.

770
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,000
So but that is an interesting
fulfillment.

771
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,700
And I've heard that said by some
people in the group with you, if

772
00:47:21,700 --> 00:47:25,600
you will that's filament there,
it could definitely hold water.

773
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,400
I mean, it sounds, yeah.
I mean, I don't think that

774
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,300
that's it.
All out of The realm of

775
00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:36,400
possibility or or you know, it
definitely has some veracity to

776
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,900
it.
So going down your notes here.

777
00:47:41,500 --> 00:47:44,900
This part, I really wanted to
spend some time on because you

778
00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:48,400
have you have one call.
You have a section here called

779
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,200
one-man.
Rule versus priesthood Council

780
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,900
versus independent Patriarchs.
So before we dive too deep in

781
00:47:55,900 --> 00:48:00,400
it, I want to take each one of
those and Define them, okay?

782
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,900
For because I do have some some
some members, some people who

783
00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:08,900
listen who aren't Mormons.
So they're not going to

784
00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:14,200
understand this Earth so explain
to me what the one-man rule is.

785
00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:19,500
And what I'm getting at with
this with my definition of this

786
00:48:19,500 --> 00:48:22,500
is arbitrary rule where you one
man?

787
00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:25,200
He oh it's a basically an
extension and our interpretation

788
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,700
of reading of Doctrine and
Covenants section 137 2 verse 7,

789
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,200
where one man had have that has
the keys conferred upon him at a

790
00:48:33,207 --> 00:48:36,900
time.
Well, in fundamentalism, we've

791
00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:41,000
seen historically a tendency for
people who promote that position

792
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:46,800
to exercise, arbitrary rule, you
know, I'd and and I In fact,

793
00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:49,300
I've seen people who maintain
that position.

794
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:52,600
Then turn around and say,
regarding people who consider

795
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:57,000
themselves independent
fundamentalists that they become

796
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,000
a law unto themselves and that
you're a law unto yourself.

797
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,200
You know, you have no claim on
priesthood or anything because

798
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,500
you're not tied in, right?
And so that that idea of not

799
00:49:06,500 --> 00:49:09,800
being a law unto yourself, comes
from Doctrine and Covenants

800
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:14,400
section. 88 verse 35, where it
says that which break the law

801
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:18,200
and the bite is not By law.
But seeketh to become a law unto

802
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:23,100
itself and Willis to abide in
sin and altogether abideth in

803
00:49:23,100 --> 00:49:26,200
sin, cannot be Sanctified by
law, neither by Mercy, Justice

804
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,700
nor judgment.
Therefore, they must remain,

805
00:49:28,700 --> 00:49:30,800
filthy still.
So, we'll come back to that.

806
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,300
So one-man rule, in my opinion,
is arbitrary rule?

807
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:37,900
No checks and balances you hold
the keys of the priesthood.

808
00:49:37,900 --> 00:49:39,700
Follow the prophet.
Yeah.

809
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,500
In a big way.
That's almost a position at the

810
00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:45,300
church takes.
I was gonna say that.

811
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:47,800
That sounds kind of like the LDS
church, right?

812
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,500
I mean and it's the same with
the slds under.

813
00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:54,500
Rulon Jeff's of Warren Jeffs,
you know and they had that split

814
00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:59,300
in 1986 2286.
There was Centennial Park over

815
00:49:59,300 --> 00:50:03,400
this exact thing was one-man
rule versus a council and that

816
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:08,300
was their split you know
Centennial Park from from Roy

817
00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:16,000
Johnson and Rulon Jeff's there
and so priesthood Council to

818
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,100
Define.
That is where you have a body or

819
00:50:19,100 --> 00:50:23,500
a quorum of priesthood holders.
Ideally, or generally with the

820
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:28,200
same level of Authority or keys
but one person is appointed to

821
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:34,000
preside over the council and in
my opinion for his I should just

822
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,000
be that wall inform meetings.
You have the ability to call the

823
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,400
quorum to order for business
safe.

824
00:50:40,900 --> 00:50:44,600
You know, but some people take
the take the title president

825
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:48,500
almost to be in between one man
ISM and priesthood Council.

826
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,300
Where you follow the president
of the Quorum versus independent

827
00:50:52,300 --> 00:50:57,000
Patriarchs and hold on one
second, I want to talk about

828
00:50:57,100 --> 00:51:01,100
this this you know, president of
the council so to speak.

829
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,800
Sure, you have to look at the
time frame in which these

830
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,400
councils were established and
council president.

831
00:51:10,500 --> 00:51:13,500
Right?
And you have to look the word

832
00:51:13,500 --> 00:51:17,500
preside.
If you look at the way it was

833
00:51:17,500 --> 00:51:22,700
used, In England, all the way up
through the revolutionary

834
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:30,400
period, even up to today during
certain meetings of government

835
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,500
or whatnot, that person who
presides usually does nothing

836
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:40,000
more than do, exactly what you
said call to order and then keep

837
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,400
things orderly.
So, people aren't talking over

838
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,200
each other.
If you go, if you go back and I

839
00:51:46,207 --> 00:51:48,900
know it's kind of a funny
comparison but if you go back to

840
00:51:48,900 --> 00:51:51,800
the Institutional convention
that's what Washington's role

841
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,800
was in presiding over that
right?

842
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:59,400
He prevented from falling into
melee so I agree with you on the

843
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,300
priesthood Council thing that
that that president was there to

844
00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:10,300
keep order period.
Yeah, like and independent page,

845
00:52:10,300 --> 00:52:13,700
sharks, and you can go two ways
with this or more, maybe?

846
00:52:13,700 --> 00:52:18,600
I don't know.
Some people maintain a position

847
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:24,000
of Independence and also that
tie or claim, or ordination to

848
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,300
certain Authority is not
necessary but that principle on

849
00:52:27,300 --> 00:52:28,800
will justify them and so there
you are.

850
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,600
And you know, I'm not going to
debate whether it does or not

851
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,900
because maybe there are
instances actually where you do

852
00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:37,300
the best you can.
What you got?

853
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:44,100
But also there's a people who
will receive an ordination from

854
00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:46,700
what they supposed to be
legitimate, Authority holding

855
00:52:46,700 --> 00:52:51,200
the keys, and then they go off
and become kind of a lone Island

856
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,200
unto themselves to do their own
thing and maybe the hermit's,

857
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,300
maybe they don't trust the abuse
of priestcraft, like there's a

858
00:52:58,300 --> 00:53:02,100
maybe a hundred reasons to
justify it and at their

859
00:53:02,100 --> 00:53:05,900
understandable, but also you can
take it to an extreme now where

860
00:53:05,900 --> 00:53:07,900
you're not really involved with
community.

861
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:11,100
Involved with fraternity with
your brother and in the

862
00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:17,100
priesthood and when you do have
interactions with them, you're

863
00:53:17,100 --> 00:53:19,600
too independent.
Now to take righteous Council

864
00:53:20,100 --> 00:53:24,600
because you've gotten too used
to it, you know, the same sort

865
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:29,300
of horror show that happened in
Colorado, city with the one-man

866
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:33,500
rule can easily happen with an
independent to his family.

867
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,900
Yes.
If he's not tied to a community

868
00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:42,700
in some way, right there has to
be a healthy tension.

869
00:53:43,500 --> 00:53:47,700
There has to be, there has to be
a healthy tension between, you

870
00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:51,800
know, absolute power somewhere,
and then absolute power given to

871
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,700
everybody, right, there has to
be a healthy tension pressure

872
00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:57,300
and I don't want to necessarily
say a middle ground because I

873
00:53:57,308 --> 00:53:59,800
don't think that quite covers
it.

874
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,100
But Steve for sure it's almost
like the checks and balances

875
00:54:04,100 --> 00:54:07,300
sort of an idea it is.
I'm right a professor in

876
00:54:07,300 --> 00:54:09,500
college.
Teaching American history, he

877
00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:12,100
kind of made that exact same
Paradigm East to stop thinking

878
00:54:12,100 --> 00:54:13,800
in terms of right and left
politically.

879
00:54:14,500 --> 00:54:18,500
And start thinking on principle
and between the two extremes of

880
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,200
of tyranny and Anarchy, which is
kind of what we're presenting

881
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,200
here between the tyranny of the
one man and that tyranny of

882
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,200
individuals or Anarchy, you
know, absolutely not not being

883
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:35,000
accountable.
Absolutely, I couldn't agree

884
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:39,800
with you more and I think, you
know, and this goes both ways,

885
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,100
both were people who have who
have no accountability and

886
00:54:43,100 --> 00:54:45,700
consider themselves.
The one man or an heir to the

887
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:48,000
one man throw that out there,
too.

888
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,900
Because in sometimes, those
positions are hereditary or

889
00:54:52,900 --> 00:54:56,800
people who are in the bloodline
want it from their father, or

890
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,300
grandfather or whatever.
And for those Independence,

891
00:55:00,300 --> 00:55:01,800
people consider themselves
Independents.

892
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:06,200
It is just as likely In both
conditions to become a law unto

893
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:07,700
yourself.
If you are not following the

894
00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:10,000
revelations in the spirit of
God, right?

895
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:15,200
And and the letter, You know,
and laws of God as contained in

896
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,300
the in the revelations already
received in the scriptures

897
00:55:18,300 --> 00:55:21,900
already received, you can both
both are a slippery slope and

898
00:55:21,900 --> 00:55:25,500
it's just as easy for
independent to become a law unto

899
00:55:25,500 --> 00:55:27,900
himself and biting and soon as
it is for the one man,

900
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:37,600
absolutely I couldn't agree
more. and, yeah, the the church

901
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:43,700
does that about, you know, going
back to that idea is I know, I

902
00:55:43,700 --> 00:55:45,400
hear it.
I hear it from my parents, I

903
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,300
hear it from pretty much all my
friends who are in the church

904
00:55:48,300 --> 00:55:55,500
still is follow the living
Prophet, you know, is the, is

905
00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:59,500
the title given to this idea.
This idea is that the the

906
00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:02,300
prophets before their the dead
prophets, follow the living

907
00:56:02,300 --> 00:56:05,200
prophets.
No matter what, you know, stand

908
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,400
that goes back to this one man
idea that arbitrary rule were

909
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:13,700
one man who is living now, Say
Jesus Christ said that you know,

910
00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:15,600
said this but that's the New
Testament, you know?

911
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,300
Well that for you know I'm
taking it to an extreme, right.

912
00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:22,700
There's never publicly
contradict Christ. and you can

913
00:56:22,700 --> 00:56:25,800
semantically argue that Christ
is resurrected Not Dead But

914
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,800
ultimately He's just the same as
a dead profits.

915
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,200
Historically, in time frame.
Yeah, are you?

916
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:34,300
Yeah.
Are you gonna go?

917
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:35,500
Do you have these little does
anyone?

918
00:56:35,500 --> 00:56:38,400
Man now have the authority to
disregard the teachings of

919
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,000
Christ?
I'd say absolutely not.

920
00:56:40,300 --> 00:56:42,600
Do they have the ability to
disregard the teachings of the

921
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,500
Prophet Joseph Smith?
No, absolutely.

922
00:56:44,500 --> 00:56:49,600
Not Joseph Smith said that if
any man teaches a Doctrine or

923
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:53,400
gospel other than what I have
taught, let him be accursed, you

924
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,800
know, including Paul.
And I believe that I absolutely

925
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,700
believe that.
I do too.

926
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:05,300
There's something else here that
you had in your notes that that

927
00:57:05,300 --> 00:57:08,000
I really like and that was the
unity card.

928
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,000
Explain the unity card.
Oh yeah.

929
00:57:11,100 --> 00:57:13,000
So these are the problems now
and this.

930
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,900
I love this too.
I might I think yeah I'm not Pat

931
00:57:16,900 --> 00:57:18,900
myself on the back here, but I
think I really got some

932
00:57:18,900 --> 00:57:21,800
Revelation or inspirational have
kind of phrase, these these

933
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,500
Concepts here because I'll tell
you what, brother, I've been

934
00:57:25,500 --> 00:57:28,500
struggling with this concept of
priesthood.

935
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,400
Four years coming into
fundamentalism from the church

936
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:38,000
and I found myself out and out
in South Dakota living with a

937
00:57:38,008 --> 00:57:42,200
man who is essentially a kind of
a lone island in the priesthood.

938
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,400
One of the best, man.
I know, best, man, that I know,

939
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,500
God bless that, man.
He taught me so much about

940
00:57:49,500 --> 00:57:53,400
priesthood, but it what?
But I and I wanted to go forth

941
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,900
and teach the gospel, the
fullness of the gospel and I

942
00:57:56,900 --> 00:58:00,800
just started praying.
And asking Lord shall I don't, I

943
00:58:00,808 --> 00:58:03,900
don't feel comfortable yet
teaching the fullness of the

944
00:58:03,908 --> 00:58:07,700
gospel because I don't know how
to teach priesthood in the

945
00:58:07,707 --> 00:58:10,900
condition where we're so far out
of order please.

946
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,100
Please teach me how I can teach
this and that's edible Mall.

947
00:58:15,100 --> 00:58:17,500
Emotion, I ended up here in
Missouri as a result of that.

948
00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:21,000
I'm 100% convinced I did not
expect that because at the

949
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,400
moment I wanted to go and teeth,
I wanted to go and take the

950
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,500
gospel to the remnant of the
House of Israel to the lamanites

951
00:58:26,500 --> 00:58:30,500
and that was kind of, but I was
focused on Well then come on in

952
00:58:30,508 --> 00:58:35,100
Missouri.
I've learned so much about the

953
00:58:35,100 --> 00:58:37,000
different takes of priesthood
because there's a lot of

954
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,100
different backgrounds here and
I've been able to talk to them

955
00:58:40,100 --> 00:58:42,700
about all of that, and it's been
very helpful anyways.

956
00:58:43,100 --> 00:58:48,100
So With priesthood councils
being opposed to one-man Rule

957
00:58:48,100 --> 00:58:53,100
and independent rule.
I have observed to essentially

958
00:58:53,100 --> 00:58:56,400
diametrically opposed what I
would call Trump cards.

959
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:01,000
Used by people who support the
council method.

960
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:07,000
Whenever a issue is brought up
in the way that they want to

961
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,700
address that issue.
I call one the unity card and

962
00:59:10,700 --> 00:59:16,500
one the seniority card the unity
card by Mission is essentially

963
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,000
the all members of a counselor
corm have to be in unity with

964
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,100
each other before.
Any decision is binding, this is

965
00:59:23,100 --> 00:59:27,100
a good thing and a bad thing.
It prevents the likelihood of

966
00:59:27,100 --> 00:59:30,100
straying too far into verb, into
forbidden paths by keeping a

967
00:59:30,107 --> 00:59:31,900
status quote.
So essentially you're creating a

968
00:59:31,900 --> 00:59:35,900
gridlock, if you have
personality clashes, which you

969
00:59:35,900 --> 00:59:37,800
talked to my father about
politics.

970
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,900
And he thinks that's the best
condition for the government to

971
00:59:41,900 --> 00:59:45,900
be in with your, with politics.
I agree with your dad because if

972
00:59:45,900 --> 00:59:49,200
they're busy arguing with
themselves are not in agreement

973
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:50,900
passed stupid laws.
So yeah.

974
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:53,100
Absolutely.
Absolutely right.

975
00:59:53,100 --> 00:59:56,600
But theoretically, this could
also and it's just theoretical

976
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,700
theoretically could this can
stifle Revelation and Direction

977
00:59:59,700 --> 01:00:03,400
coming from a president of the
council or any other member of a

978
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,900
council, having Revelation, and
presenting it to the Corp and

979
01:00:07,900 --> 01:00:09,500
will.
And I'd like to get into some

980
01:00:09,500 --> 01:00:11,700
examples of this for that.
For now we will love that

981
01:00:11,700 --> 01:00:14,600
definition stand by itself and
we'll go up to the definition.

982
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:18,100
Created for the seniority card
which is where the president of

983
01:00:18,100 --> 01:00:22,800
the priesthood or key holder or
whatever the title is senior, in

984
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,300
the group might have has the
right to hold the keys to the

985
01:00:26,300 --> 01:00:32,300
revelations and a final say, or
a veto to regarding the

986
01:00:32,300 --> 01:00:36,000
operations, such as Temple work,
or who should marry, who, or

987
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,300
designating, a successor or
basic, whatever.

988
01:00:38,300 --> 01:00:42,300
All basically, whatever
operations the work needs to

989
01:00:42,300 --> 01:00:45,600
address that.
That president or Key holder or

990
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,700
Fountainhead or whatever, we
want to call, has that veto

991
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:54,500
ability to put his foot down?
No matter what right, you know

992
01:00:54,500 --> 01:01:01,000
and and Yeah, I think so.
I think that those, depending on

993
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:05,200
if there's a Schism in a quorum
like with Joe Thompson, the

994
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:12,300
seniority card was played big
time with you, it's rumored out

995
01:01:12,300 --> 01:01:13,500
there.
And I'd say it's a

996
01:01:13,508 --> 01:01:17,500
misrepresentation to an extent
that Joe Thompson was out

997
01:01:17,500 --> 01:01:19,900
giving, second, anointings and
Temple ordinances to people that

998
01:01:19,900 --> 01:01:25,700
were not in the movie or, or
that, or without in the or in a

999
01:01:25,700 --> 01:01:28,800
mirror.
Without the permission of oh and

1000
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:33,700
already and so anything that he
did was completely Nolan void

1001
01:01:33,700 --> 01:01:38,800
because the senior, you know,
and what and be tone essentially

1002
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,100
or he didn't give the approval
and therefore it's not valid you

1003
01:01:42,100 --> 01:01:48,000
know or Owen and maybe we can
talk about this to who knows we

1004
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:51,500
have time oh and in 1994 so
started going through all the

1005
01:01:51,500 --> 01:01:54,200
branches of the auv and
basically on preaching the temp

1006
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:55,900
work that they've been doing for
first.

1007
01:01:56,100 --> 01:01:59,900
Over a decade.
Because, you know, and

1008
01:01:59,900 --> 01:02:03,100
basically, as president of the
priests and vetoed, all the work

1009
01:02:03,100 --> 01:02:05,200
for the dead and all the second
anointing that they had done

1010
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:06,700
allegedly.
You know, that's what I've

1011
01:02:06,700 --> 01:02:10,500
heard, you know.
Yeah.

1012
01:02:10,500 --> 01:02:13,200
And that's, that's why I really
have a problem.

1013
01:02:13,700 --> 01:02:16,500
Sure, right.
That's that's where this really

1014
01:02:16,500 --> 01:02:24,600
gets messy because, How can you
like, do a broad?

1015
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,600
No, none of that counted without
looking at each case

1016
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,500
individually.
And I absolutely agree.

1017
01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:36,400
And like, oh, man, did I?
I could not, in fact, I know

1018
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,700
people, I know people in the
priesthood works that I'm

1019
01:02:38,700 --> 01:02:41,200
associated with, who have the
opinion that some of the people

1020
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,700
who have been ordained us or
novices should not have been.

1021
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,300
But in every instance, where the
personality is disagreed were in

1022
01:02:47,300 --> 01:02:51,600
office was conferred, they said
it's Hands and we'll see what

1023
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,000
they do with it.
Yeah and I think I think that's

1024
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:58,400
the proper way to get to the
very least is if it shouldn't

1025
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,500
have been done.
Oh well it's done now.

1026
01:03:02,100 --> 01:03:04,000
I'll see what if they rise up to
it.

1027
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:09,500
That's my two cents.
Yeah, I tend to agree with you.

1028
01:03:09,500 --> 01:03:15,000
I again I mean these, these
aren't these aren't things that

1029
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,600
you can do.
Blanket statements with right

1030
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:22,800
thing and just cover with one
Fell Swoop because these are

1031
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:27,900
people and people are different.
Every circumstance is different,

1032
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,500
and every circumstance needs
individual attention.

1033
01:03:31,700 --> 01:03:39,100
So when you start talking about
blanket, If you will of no no

1034
01:03:39,100 --> 01:03:41,900
this doesn't work.
You know that this was no one

1035
01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:44,100
void.
I really have a hard time with

1036
01:03:44,100 --> 01:03:48,600
that and actually that's a that
was one of the big catalysts for

1037
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:52,200
Joe, Thompson, moving forward
with the work that he began to

1038
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,300
do with Ted Jessup and others
was because do one kind of

1039
01:03:55,300 --> 01:03:59,400
unprefixed the temple work.
You know, he had already been

1040
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,100
cut off from the council for
personal issues and stuff.

1041
01:04:03,100 --> 01:04:06,400
And a big reason that he went
for was like, we just spent a

1042
01:04:06,408 --> 01:04:10,000
decade.
Doing all this Temple work and

1043
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,700
I'm feeling now that he was
dropped from that Quorum.

1044
01:04:12,700 --> 01:04:16,000
He no longer had a risky place.
He was debased or position of

1045
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,000
Independence and still, you
know.

1046
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:19,900
Okay.
I'm gonna, I no longer have to

1047
01:04:19,908 --> 01:04:23,800
be accountable to the form,
because they dismissed me and

1048
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:27,400
I'm going to go forward with the
keys that I old, and Trying to

1049
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:29,900
perpetuate the priest into the
best that I know how.

1050
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:31,800
So that's the keys, remain on
the Earth.

1051
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:38,200
You know, it's so interesting to
me that Mormonism more than any

1052
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:42,500
other religion.
I know, does the same cycle over

1053
01:04:42,900 --> 01:04:47,300
and over again, right?
I mean, I was absolutely, does

1054
01:04:47,500 --> 01:04:51,000
you you look at what, you know,
because Thompson's essentially

1055
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:55,800
doing the same thing that the
woolies are doing right?

1056
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:59,300
Right, right.
We can sustain the wall easily.

1057
01:04:59,300 --> 01:05:01,300
Can't sustain brother, Joe and
doing that.

1058
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:03,800
Yeah.
And Just amazing.

1059
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,700
Because I look at this, and I'm
like, okay, we should be

1060
01:05:06,700 --> 01:05:10,300
learning something by now.
Right, we, we've been through

1061
01:05:10,300 --> 01:05:13,900
three cycles of this.
At some point, we need to start

1062
01:05:13,900 --> 01:05:17,700
learning something and figuring
out how to work together and

1063
01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:19,900
ever since ever.
Since Heber C, Kimball if not,

1064
01:05:19,900 --> 01:05:23,500
before the prophets have been
saying that, if the, if the

1065
01:05:23,500 --> 01:05:27,600
people do not rise up and be
qualified to build the kingdom

1066
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,500
of God, God will find another
people to go and do it.

1067
01:05:30,500 --> 01:05:32,600
And we are seeing that iteration
and that cycle.

1068
01:05:32,700 --> 01:05:35,600
I'll repeat itself and that's
this is the whole thing.

1069
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:40,300
I want to touch on is these
principles of governing and and

1070
01:05:40,300 --> 01:05:42,900
so that we can move past this
cycle essentially and actually

1071
01:05:42,900 --> 01:05:45,600
build the kingdom of God on
correct principles.

1072
01:05:46,300 --> 01:05:49,800
And I think that in the big way,
that's not going to happen

1073
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,600
unless we figure out presidency
and keys.

1074
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,900
Ben and I have a disability way
toward or differentiate the two

1075
01:05:56,900 --> 01:05:59,200
of them.
So let's.

1076
01:06:00,500 --> 01:06:02,000
All right.
So let's touch on some of these

1077
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:06,600
issues with under Unity card and
are prettier or problems arising

1078
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:14,500
with with councils.
The AUB for example has has

1079
01:06:14,500 --> 01:06:17,800
seems to be able.
The, the presiding Apostle of

1080
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:21,700
the council has had the ability
to appoint the next successor in

1081
01:06:21,700 --> 01:06:24,000
the council as the head of the
There's the next town of the

1082
01:06:24,008 --> 01:06:26,700
priesthood.
It's by appointment and not by

1083
01:06:26,700 --> 01:06:33,100
seniority by ordination.
At least two occasions, one guy

1084
01:06:33,100 --> 01:06:37,400
who was senior by ordination was
passed over at least twice.

1085
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:40,000
And there was another instance
with another man to but was once

1086
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:44,500
in his case.
Because of appointment.

1087
01:06:44,500 --> 01:06:50,600
And I'm not in a say, That.
That can't happen through

1088
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:52,600
relation.
But what I'm saying is that

1089
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:57,200
there is a danger if one man can
say in a point a junior guy

1090
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,100
president or whatever and a
bypass is all the other guys and

1091
01:07:01,100 --> 01:07:03,000
I don't know what kind of
discussion there was behind

1092
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,200
closed doors.
I have zero idea so I'm not

1093
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:09,500
really trying to argue their
procedure it's just something

1094
01:07:09,500 --> 01:07:12,200
that I've noticed that's a
little bit of a question mark to

1095
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:16,800
me I think it's an outgrowth
maybe of Joseph muster

1096
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:19,200
appointing rulon Allred to
succeed him.

1097
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:25,800
He claimed Revelation for it by
passing the rest of the

1098
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,100
priesthood Council that was
associated with the work at the

1099
01:07:28,100 --> 01:07:31,000
time, which eventually became
the Colorado, City priesthood

1100
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:35,800
Council.
In Centennial.

1101
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,000
Park a firm, went as near as I
can tell.

1102
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:43,500
It seems, it seems as if the
senior that senior were the

1103
01:07:43,500 --> 01:07:47,800
Apostle is able to take the
presidency of the Quorum or

1104
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:51,200
their counsel friends.
I don't exactly know how they

1105
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,900
Define the status of senior and
worthy and this is actually what

1106
01:07:54,900 --> 01:07:57,300
I want to get into as well with
these same questions.

1107
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:04,200
I think it's the best format so
far, but also to me.

1108
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:09,300
Seems potentially ambiguous.
Regarding how you define

1109
01:08:09,300 --> 01:08:13,000
worthiness and how you define
seniority and we can touch on

1110
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:17,100
that in a bit and the Peterson
group share a little bit of an

1111
01:08:17,100 --> 01:08:20,300
anecdote with my experiences
with some of the missionaries

1112
01:08:20,300 --> 01:08:23,600
there, you know, about four
years ago, I was at Sunstone

1113
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:26,899
Symposium and I met some of
those, you know, elements of

1114
01:08:26,899 --> 01:08:29,100
those Elders, were there,
handing out pamphlets and stuff.

1115
01:08:29,100 --> 01:08:32,899
And I had a great time talking
with them and learning about the

1116
01:08:32,899 --> 01:08:37,100
branch and I just had some
theoretical questions regarding

1117
01:08:37,100 --> 01:08:38,300
succession.
Pretty soon.

1118
01:08:38,899 --> 01:08:42,000
And I asked what protocol there
was regarding succession.

1119
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:45,600
If one of the living descendants
was found not to be qualified to

1120
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:52,100
be the president of the branch.
I also, you know, I believe that

1121
01:08:52,100 --> 01:08:57,300
they told me at the time that
the profit of the branch and the

1122
01:08:57,308 --> 01:08:59,399
president of the branch are not
always the same thing.

1123
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:04,100
And that the patriarch to the
branch can also operate as

1124
01:09:04,100 --> 01:09:08,500
presidents as well.
If the prophet wanted to recuse

1125
01:09:08,500 --> 01:09:12,899
himself from the duties and
responsibilities of the office

1126
01:09:12,899 --> 01:09:15,600
of President and you can correct
me on that if I'm wrong.

1127
01:09:17,500 --> 01:09:20,200
And so technically on a
technicality, the patriarchy To

1128
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,899
the Office of the President,
until someone in the family,

1129
01:09:22,899 --> 01:09:26,000
rose up to fill the office.
My question was essentially,

1130
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:31,800
what is what's the layout for If
no this is the whole contention

1131
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:35,000
with Joseph Smith's family, was
that Joseph Smith at third or

1132
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:35,399
David?
Hi.

1133
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:39,500
Rose Smith had a right to become
the next head of the priest or

1134
01:09:39,500 --> 01:09:42,300
president of the church by
virtue of being.

1135
01:09:42,700 --> 01:09:47,200
The are you in the Covenant are
to Joseph Smith and it did not

1136
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:49,500
work out.
They were not qualified because

1137
01:09:49,500 --> 01:09:52,100
their mother lied to them.
Regarding the doctrines that

1138
01:09:52,100 --> 01:09:55,800
Joseph Smith was teaching and
they could not reconcile.

1139
01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:00,200
Those ideas and so they were not
qualified to lead the church.

1140
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:04,800
Even though Brigham made the he
made statements saying that

1141
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:09,000
David would qualify he would
step aside and let him fill the

1142
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,600
position.
That was his Birthright.

1143
01:10:12,500 --> 01:10:15,800
And so, what's this idea of
hereditary succession?

1144
01:10:15,900 --> 01:10:19,200
And I've seen this in other
groups, to me, it seems the

1145
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:23,600
potential for conflict if
there's a vacuum and it can lead

1146
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,000
to a King mentality that there
is in the Book of Mormon.

1147
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:30,300
Right, I agree with that.
Yeah, I could.

1148
01:10:30,300 --> 01:10:32,900
I could see that there are
certain cases that can

1149
01:10:32,900 --> 01:10:40,300
absolutely go off the rails.
So, let me ask you this real

1150
01:10:40,300 --> 01:10:41,900
quick.
I want to go back to the

1151
01:10:41,900 --> 01:10:45,900
seniority card if you will.
Okay, sure.

1152
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:48,700
And if I'm interrupting your
flow, let me know.

1153
01:10:49,100 --> 01:10:50,900
Oh, you're not.
I think we, I think, let's take

1154
01:10:50,900 --> 01:10:54,500
your question.
So with, with that seniority

1155
01:10:54,500 --> 01:10:56,300
card.
Are they talking about?

1156
01:10:56,300 --> 01:10:58,900
See, are you talking about
seniority?

1157
01:10:58,900 --> 01:11:05,700
As far as being a senior, in
terms of the one being in the

1158
01:11:05,700 --> 01:11:11,300
corn, the longest I think it
would depend on the the rules of

1159
01:11:11,300 --> 01:11:18,300
the Purim in particular because
the senior under one definition

1160
01:11:18,300 --> 01:11:21,700
could be the senior by
ordination the first ordained to

1161
01:11:21,700 --> 01:11:24,800
holding a the same position as
others in the Quorum and

1162
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:28,100
therefore by virtue of that I
can assure, for example, the the

1163
01:11:28,100 --> 01:11:31,400
president of the Quorum of The
Twelve is the the oldest Apostle

1164
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:36,700
by ordination.
But in uni for example it's not

1165
01:11:36,700 --> 01:11:39,900
the case now because the
previous head of the priesthood

1166
01:11:39,900 --> 01:11:44,800
can appoint a successor and now
he is senior In position.

1167
01:11:45,500 --> 01:11:47,800
And so there's two definitions
are seeing you my ordination and

1168
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:51,000
Senior by position.
And so with the seniority card,

1169
01:11:52,900 --> 01:11:56,100
it doesn't, it's not necessary
to distinguish those two points

1170
01:11:56,100 --> 01:11:58,700
based.
Basically, it's assumed

1171
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:00,600
whichever definition of senior
at that point.

1172
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:04,900
Is the one making or has the
ability to make a final say so,

1173
01:12:05,700 --> 01:12:08,200
and how does that veto power?
Whether it's senior but

1174
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:12,300
ordination date or senior by
appointment that you have the

1175
01:12:12,700 --> 01:12:17,300
that you have the Power to veto
or decide and Implement a

1176
01:12:17,300 --> 01:12:21,000
change.
Okay, so let me push back

1177
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:23,500
against the seniority card for
just a minute because I want to

1178
01:12:23,500 --> 01:12:28,000
get your response to this sure
Playing devil's.

1179
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:30,400
Advocate here.
Oh, let's do it.

1180
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:36,400
I don't think Brigham qualified
based on the seniority card.

1181
01:12:38,900 --> 01:12:44,000
To on a technicality.
He didn't the way that the

1182
01:12:44,008 --> 01:12:47,900
Quorum of The Twelve had
operated in a lot of ways was by

1183
01:12:47,900 --> 01:12:50,800
age and not, by ordination, and
lime, and white was older than

1184
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,900
Brigham Young was.
And that was one of Wyman whites

1185
01:12:54,500 --> 01:12:57,400
excuses for not being in harmony
with Brigham and the rest of the

1186
01:12:57,400 --> 01:12:59,300
twelve was because of will bring
them.

1187
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:02,300
I should be senior.
Yeah, they should be following

1188
01:13:02,300 --> 01:13:05,200
me.
Yeah, because I'm older, right?

1189
01:13:07,900 --> 01:13:12,400
The only reason I would push
back on this at all, is that?

1190
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:17,200
There are certain men God can
use in certain times, right?

1191
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:21,100
I mean, I can't think of anyone
more perfect than Brigham Young

1192
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,300
to tell everyone, get your butts
in the wagon.

1193
01:13:24,900 --> 01:13:28,000
We're going to go across those
planes and then when we get

1194
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:32,200
there were going to carve a
entire Society out of Sagebrush

1195
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:38,500
and mountains. and let me let me
if we play just the seniority

1196
01:13:38,500 --> 01:13:43,100
card, I worry that If it's not a
matter of prayer, right?

1197
01:13:43,100 --> 01:13:45,900
If we're just going on the
assumption that, hey, this is

1198
01:13:45,900 --> 01:13:49,300
where he's at in the chain, he
needs to come forward, we could

1199
01:13:49,300 --> 01:13:54,800
circum that, you know, we could
short-circuit the work a little

1200
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,900
bit, right?
We we do anything we have in a

1201
01:13:57,900 --> 01:14:01,200
lot of in certain instances and
it goes back to that statement

1202
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:03,800
about the church you know being
led astray by the president of

1203
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:05,600
the church or president of the
Corn, right?

1204
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:08,500
Just make an assumption that
this man senior in the line

1205
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:13,900
therefore his word out As others
on principle is bogus absolutely

1206
01:14:13,900 --> 01:14:16,000
bogus in my opinion.
Right.

1207
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:18,500
Right.
That, that would be my only push

1208
01:14:18,500 --> 01:14:21,500
back against the seniority card
with book.

1209
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,700
And I disagree with it to what
I'm saying these cards are used

1210
01:14:24,900 --> 01:14:29,800
to combat.
And I'll give you some examples,

1211
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:32,400
but let's in fact, let's do it
right now.

1212
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:37,900
More recently, the 1950s priest
in split in the fundamentalist

1213
01:14:37,900 --> 01:14:44,700
movement, and you get, it's so
interesting.

1214
01:14:45,500 --> 01:14:47,800
Joseph.
Mauser is presiding, okay,

1215
01:14:48,100 --> 01:14:51,000
right.
No one can dispute that actually

1216
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:56,000
except for they do some do, but
I think by and large and I'll

1217
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,000
get this is blows my mind.
Blows my mind how they can do

1218
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,400
this.
But the idea is from the auv

1219
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:05,100
side of the split that Joseph
muster as the senior has the

1220
01:15:05,100 --> 01:15:08,600
right to have to walk by the
priesthood Council that were on.

1221
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:11,600
That was under him and point
rulon Allred as his successor

1222
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,900
and appoint a whole new Council
and he has the right to do that.

1223
01:15:14,900 --> 01:15:18,300
My seniority and the Colorado
city council is say, no, he was

1224
01:15:18,300 --> 01:15:21,900
not in unity with the Brethren,
he was not accountable, doesn't

1225
01:15:21,900 --> 01:15:24,700
matter if he was a with the
senior or not, he was, he did

1226
01:15:24,700 --> 01:15:26,300
not consult with the rest of the
Quorum.

1227
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:29,000
Therefore, any ordinary.
Nations and appointments that he

1228
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:32,500
made are not valid concerning
the work and you have that split

1229
01:15:32,500 --> 01:15:34,600
there.
And it's so interesting to me

1230
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:39,500
that once Joseph mustard eyes,
neither person who end up

1231
01:15:39,500 --> 01:15:44,000
becoming the presiding Apostle
and each group could technically

1232
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:49,400
lay a claim to being the senior,
by ordination, because ruling

1233
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:57,100
already had call home Alma Alma
Del timson.

1234
01:15:58,300 --> 01:16:04,200
Richard says Jessup.
Charles sitting Leroy Johnson

1235
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:06,100
Marion Hammond.
You name it all.

1236
01:16:06,100 --> 01:16:09,700
Those guys were ahead of him in
the council, but he's now moving

1237
01:16:09,700 --> 01:16:12,500
forward to a point to do the
work that about Joseph mustard,

1238
01:16:12,500 --> 01:16:16,800
commissioned him to do, but then
Leroy Johnson on the other side,

1239
01:16:16,900 --> 01:16:21,100
had Lewis kelsch and Lee Graham
and Legrand woolly from the Lord

1240
01:16:21,100 --> 01:16:24,400
woolly appointments nearly 20
years earlier.

1241
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:28,500
That were at was ahead of him.
And so neither Apostle, neither

1242
01:16:28,500 --> 01:16:31,200
rulon Allred.
Nor Leroy Johnson could claim

1243
01:16:31,500 --> 01:16:35,300
position of an absolute
seniority card on, in my

1244
01:16:35,300 --> 01:16:36,600
opinion, for my observation on
this.

1245
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:40,200
And I think the Lord will for
anyone who's looking at the

1246
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:42,200
condition.
I think the Lord left it that

1247
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:45,200
way intentionally so that we
would not have an excuse to say

1248
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:47,900
he's senior, I'm gonna follow
him, right?

1249
01:16:47,900 --> 01:16:49,600
Yes.
You just find the senior by

1250
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:53,500
ordination, it would have been
Legrand Woolly and who know who

1251
01:16:53,500 --> 01:16:54,800
knows anything about Legrand,
bully.

1252
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:58,900
And asking people that question
not a saw, no one knows anything

1253
01:16:58,900 --> 01:17:02,000
about Legrand will because he
recused himself from the

1254
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:04,700
priesthood work.
Because in fact, I don't even

1255
01:17:04,700 --> 01:17:07,900
know if he live plural marriage,
but he was appointed to the high

1256
01:17:07,900 --> 01:17:12,400
priest apostleship by Lauren
Woolly and he was a nephew or a

1257
01:17:12,407 --> 01:17:15,600
cousin I believe.
And he was a doctor and hit

1258
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:18,300
because his business and his
practice was so tied in with

1259
01:17:18,300 --> 01:17:21,700
members of the church, he felt
that his and continued

1260
01:17:21,700 --> 01:17:23,700
involvement with the
fundamentalist movement.

1261
01:17:24,300 --> 01:17:27,200
Would hurt his business and his
family, right?

1262
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:29,700
And so I don't even know if you
live a plural marriage, you

1263
01:17:29,700 --> 01:17:32,500
know?
And I do yes, I really don't

1264
01:17:32,500 --> 01:17:37,600
know but he disqualified himself
in my opinion of being the

1265
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:41,200
worthy senior by not being
involved right?

1266
01:17:41,300 --> 01:17:44,300
Right banana.
But if you want to argue this,

1267
01:17:44,300 --> 01:17:46,500
the see me this absolute
seniority card.

1268
01:17:46,500 --> 01:17:49,200
Like, you can't just do that.
You can't do without taking an

1269
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:52,500
account, those details, you have
to be more nuanced, right?

1270
01:17:53,100 --> 01:17:55,600
Right, I guess.
From Italy, but my hope would

1271
01:17:55,600 --> 01:18:00,000
be, is that, that counsel would
come together upon the death of

1272
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:04,700
the president of the council and
then do some honest prayer,

1273
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:06,500
right?
And get instruction from the

1274
01:18:06,500 --> 01:18:11,100
Lord about whose abilities who
says, hold position.

1275
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:13,000
Yep.
Yep.

1276
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:16,900
Let's talk about the problem
with the unity card real quick

1277
01:18:16,900 --> 01:18:19,300
because I want to bring bring
this up.

1278
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:23,200
There's a lot of horrible crap
that has been done in human

1279
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,200
history.
For the sake of unity, right?

1280
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:31,100
And so, so whenever I hear,
let's just be United to be

1281
01:18:31,100 --> 01:18:33,700
United.
I get concerned, right?

1282
01:18:33,700 --> 01:18:40,600
And, and the Lord makes Makes it
clear that if you're not United

1283
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:45,000
on the correct principles, it's
just as bad as being in

1284
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:48,200
Rebellion against correct
principles case in point is the

1285
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:50,600
Tower of Babel, right?
Because if you remember in the

1286
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:56,100
Tower of Babel, the Lord says,
look the people are one and then

1287
01:18:56,100 --> 01:18:58,600
he goes down and scatters the
language, right?

1288
01:18:58,900 --> 01:19:03,600
Right.
And so if you're United just for

1289
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:10,800
you night, being united sake,
That's just as bad as being in

1290
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:17,000
Discord or sometimes worse.
Yes, yes, his gives power to and

1291
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:19,300
a lot more resources to
committing atrocities.

1292
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,300
So here's the, here's the
rhetoric I've seen on the unity

1293
01:19:25,300 --> 01:19:29,600
card.
You know, is that a back to

1294
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:32,400
Joseph Foster?
And what I said that he we can't

1295
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:34,800
dispute, he was senior, I've
talked to people from the

1296
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:37,800
Colorado City side and other and
other people who aren't even the

1297
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:41,500
don't even claim to be a part of
the Lord, holy side of the work

1298
01:19:41,500 --> 01:19:45,100
you know you know they're from
the LeBaron side or whatever and

1299
01:19:45,100 --> 01:19:48,600
they will say good.
Joseph monster really be the

1300
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:51,600
senior.
If three of his four wives left

1301
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:54,900
them there for, he's not
qualified to preside over a

1302
01:19:54,907 --> 01:19:59,100
council friends or in the keys
there for the rest of the

1303
01:19:59,100 --> 01:20:01,800
council can walk by him versus
him walking by them.

1304
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:04,000
Right.
And I had to shake my head at

1305
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:10,000
that that backwards rhetoric
dude because I think I

1306
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:17,600
absolutely think that man was
justified under Covenant by his

1307
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,400
ordinances of having, having the
fullness of the priesthood and

1308
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:23,700
the second anointing and
fulfilling the conditions of

1309
01:20:23,700 --> 01:20:27,000
that law and entering, he
entered into that order of

1310
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:28,600
marriage.
The celestial order of marriage

1311
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:33,100
in 1900 or 1901 by Mathias
Cowley who ordered who married

1312
01:20:33,100 --> 01:20:36,100
them to marry to marry Caroline
Hill.

1313
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:40,500
There was a covenant there,
there was a covenant they're

1314
01:20:40,500 --> 01:20:44,300
made and then he took he entered
into a covenant two more times

1315
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:48,200
and I'm sorry but he never broke
his covenants and disqualified

1316
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:53,500
himself to of those women to say
that three left in his life

1317
01:20:53,500 --> 01:20:55,700
because one died.
That same one, I mentioned, Mary

1318
01:20:55,700 --> 01:20:57,800
Mary, Caroline Hill died in
1930.

1319
01:20:58,500 --> 01:21:01,000
And so to say that, he's
disqualified because one of his

1320
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:04,200
wives dies and now he has one
wife that's living with him

1321
01:21:04,300 --> 01:21:06,900
because the other two have
broken their Covenants.

1322
01:21:07,300 --> 01:21:10,000
Then breaking their covenants
does not equate to him, breaking

1323
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:14,400
his government's right, you
know, and if you want to read

1324
01:21:14,400 --> 01:21:20,200
into John Taylor's Revelation on
DNC around, he's the hunter 1882

1325
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:24,000
Revelation, where the Lord said
it is not meet for men to

1326
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:26,900
preside in my priest, who will
not abide my law.

1327
01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:29,700
That in, my opinion is very much
talking about.

1328
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:32,800
The Lord is saying someone who's
going to repudiate this friend's

1329
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,000
phone.
Use their agency to not abide by

1330
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:36,700
law.
Get him out of here.

1331
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:40,900
They're not to preside but it
doesn't say whatsoever that you

1332
01:21:40,907 --> 01:21:43,400
need to be living the law of
thermal marriage.

1333
01:21:43,500 --> 01:21:47,300
He says, you need to be willing
to abide it under those

1334
01:21:47,300 --> 01:21:51,300
conditions and I think Joseph
muster absolutely qualifies and

1335
01:21:51,300 --> 01:21:54,700
so you can't just walk the with
the swiftest unity card as

1336
01:21:54,700 --> 01:21:57,600
you're saying, you can't just
walk past them and come up with

1337
01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:00,900
his justifications.
You know, that he he's not the

1338
01:22:00,900 --> 01:22:04,500
president of the Quorum, also,
he had more, he had more

1339
01:22:04,700 --> 01:22:07,900
Authority than they needed
because he had For most of his

1340
01:22:07,900 --> 01:22:10,500
ordinances in the second
anointing and that had been a

1341
01:22:10,500 --> 01:22:13,200
point of contention in the
priests and group for years.

1342
01:22:14,300 --> 01:22:16,600
Right.
Right.

1343
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:20,400
And and, and that even puts a
new spin on seniority, right?

1344
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:25,100
Because maybe seniority isn't
talking about dates at all,

1345
01:22:25,100 --> 01:22:30,100
maybe seniority as talking about
where you're where you're at.

1346
01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:33,000
In terms of receiving your
ordinances and you're worthy of

1347
01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:38,500
sorts of I think I think things
like the number of the condition

1348
01:22:38,500 --> 01:22:41,900
of you entering the celestial
order of marriage and receiving

1349
01:22:41,900 --> 01:22:45,200
ordinances.
They're not Automatic

1350
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,400
qualifiers.
But they are considerable.

1351
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:51,800
Their items to consider when
choosing a worthy senior by

1352
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:54,800
Revelation and for some reason,
I don't understand it.

1353
01:22:55,700 --> 01:23:00,100
Joe Joseph muster allow John,
why Barlow and Leslie broad been

1354
01:23:00,700 --> 01:23:04,800
to preside over him without
having those ordinances in that

1355
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:07,300
Quorum.
He allowed them to preside over

1356
01:23:07,500 --> 01:23:10,600
and he did not make any bones
about being I more worthy and

1357
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:13,800
I'm more senior Than You by
virtue of these Temple

1358
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:16,900
ordinances He didn't do that.
He absolutely did not do that

1359
01:23:16,900 --> 01:23:20,800
ever.
And to me, that's, you know,

1360
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:26,200
he's T12 either for the sake of
a type of unity that he viewed

1361
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:29,400
was better than division.
Did it made that sacrifice?

1362
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:34,700
Or he had a view that that is
different.

1363
01:23:34,700 --> 01:23:36,200
I would love to ask him if he
was here.

1364
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:38,900
What constitutes the worthy?
Senior, you know.

1365
01:23:38,900 --> 01:23:41,200
How would you define that?
I don't know.

1366
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:48,700
No, I think we make make very
valid points.

1367
01:23:50,300 --> 01:23:53,600
In, in all that.
All right.

1368
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,200
Where do you want to go next?
Big guy.

1369
01:23:57,500 --> 01:23:59,600
You have any questions?
If not, I can just get to the

1370
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:03,500
next Point, mr.
Shillitoe, I think we, I think

1371
01:24:03,500 --> 01:24:06,200
we beat that one to death.
I felt like it was good.

1372
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:09,800
So yes, me too.
It's a keys.

1373
01:24:09,900 --> 01:24:11,800
So we've talked about presidency
a little bit.

1374
01:24:12,100 --> 01:24:16,800
Let's talk about keys are In a
nutshell keys, are the

1375
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:21,300
authorization recognized by God
as having the power to

1376
01:24:21,300 --> 01:24:25,700
administer a blessing, that's
one definition there are also

1377
01:24:25,700 --> 01:24:29,200
keys to the presidency.
For example, the way I've had it

1378
01:24:29,300 --> 01:24:39,600
put to me is as a member of an
Elders Quorum in the church, if

1379
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:42,500
you're going to go commit, if
you, if you're just a member or

1380
01:24:42,500 --> 01:24:45,200
not the president, and you're
talking to one of the old ladies

1381
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:49,000
in the ward or whatever, and she
wants to move you, do not have

1382
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:53,200
the keys to go and commit your
entire priesthood Quorum, the

1383
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:56,400
elders form of that word before.
We move that lady, right?

1384
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:59,300
Commit yourself, you can go
commit yourself to do that.

1385
01:24:59,300 --> 01:25:00,800
Say, you know, I'll be here this
weekend.

1386
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:02,900
I'll help you move I'll pack
your boxes whatever out of the

1387
01:25:02,900 --> 01:25:06,600
charity of your part but you
cannot legally commit.

1388
01:25:07,900 --> 01:25:11,600
Your whole corn.
But the present, you have to go

1389
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:13,600
talk to the president and then
has to be brought up to the

1390
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:16,600
Quorum and neither can the
president fully do it, but he

1391
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:18,900
has the official right to
sanction.

1392
01:25:18,900 --> 01:25:23,700
It to make it a to make it a
sanctioned decision by the body.

1393
01:25:23,700 --> 01:25:26,300
That's the best.
That's under the president's

1394
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:29,400
Keys.
Their key, there's keys of

1395
01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:31,800
power, and there's keys of
knowledge, which are different

1396
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,300
Keys as well.
There's keys of knowledge,

1397
01:25:34,300 --> 01:25:36,500
imparted during the temple
endowment, which give you

1398
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:42,100
Ability to to receive and to
test Messengers from the other

1399
01:25:42,100 --> 01:25:44,400
side of the mail.
Right?

1400
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:45,400
Sure.
Yeah.

1401
01:25:45,700 --> 01:25:49,500
Those are Keys as well.
So there's we have to be careful

1402
01:25:49,500 --> 01:25:52,600
to talk about when we're talking
about keys to Define what we're

1403
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:56,400
talking about here.
And so I'm mainly going to

1404
01:25:56,400 --> 01:26:00,800
confine my remarks in my
definitions towards the ability

1405
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:04,400
to officiate legally in the
kingdom of God, performing

1406
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:08,100
Temple, ordinances or blessings.
Count pertaining to the

1407
01:26:08,100 --> 01:26:15,800
exaltation of the Human family.
So here's, there's so many

1408
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:18,300
interesting things on this.
Well, we go back to the

1409
01:26:18,300 --> 01:26:23,100
succession crisis again, in
Nauvoo, go to the to August 7th,

1410
01:26:23,300 --> 01:26:28,700
1844, the the apostles were
dealing with Sidney Rigdon, and

1411
01:26:28,700 --> 01:26:31,200
Sidney was a member of the first
presidency and he was making a

1412
01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:34,900
bid for being the guardian of
the church until shows.

1413
01:26:34,900 --> 01:26:40,200
Us kids could come of age and
received the presidency receive

1414
01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:45,800
his position, right?
And So there's a there's this

1415
01:26:46,100 --> 01:26:51,800
question in the minds of the
people who has the keys or who

1416
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:57,700
presides in the case of Brigham
Young says, on August 7th 1844.

1417
01:26:58,100 --> 01:27:01,000
I do not care who leads the
church, even though what we

1418
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:04,100
randomly, the one thing I must
know.

1419
01:27:04,300 --> 01:27:06,000
And that is what God says about
it.

1420
01:27:06,300 --> 01:27:10,900
I have the keys in the means of
obtaining the mind of God on the

1421
01:27:10,900 --> 01:27:13,200
subject.
I know there are those in our

1422
01:27:13,300 --> 01:27:15,000
Myths.
Who will seek the lives of the

1423
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:17,600
12 as they did the lives of
Joseph and Hyrum?

1424
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:22,000
We shall ordain others and give
the fullness of a priest.

1425
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:24,900
And so that if we are killed,
the fullness of the priesthood

1426
01:27:24,900 --> 01:27:29,200
May remain Joseph conferred Upon
Our Heads, all the keys and

1427
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:32,200
Powers belonging to the
apostleship, which he himself

1428
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:37,300
held before he was taken away.
The 12, as a quorum, will not be

1429
01:27:37,300 --> 01:27:40,800
permitted to tarry here long.
They will be they will go abroad

1430
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:43,200
and bear off the kingdom to the
nations of the Earth.

1431
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:46,500
Baptize people faster than mobs
can kill them off.

1432
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:50,200
And so I think is really what
you want to you want to comment

1433
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:52,700
on that?
Yeah, just just for a second and

1434
01:27:52,700 --> 01:27:57,700
again this this is for portions
of my audience who've never been

1435
01:27:57,700 --> 01:28:02,900
Mormon.
Sure, tell me what the fullness

1436
01:28:02,900 --> 01:28:06,400
of the priesthood is.
The full.

1437
01:28:06,400 --> 01:28:08,900
Yes, thank you.
I think that's going to Define.

1438
01:28:08,900 --> 01:28:11,200
I'm not going to really Endeavor
to prove it out by sources

1439
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:12,300
because they're not in front of
me.

1440
01:28:12,500 --> 01:28:16,100
But it is generally understood
and I think most people have

1441
01:28:16,100 --> 01:28:19,500
this understanding when you
really dive into it, is that the

1442
01:28:19,500 --> 01:28:23,400
fullness of the priesthood is
the ceiling keys of Elijah,

1443
01:28:24,100 --> 01:28:31,300
which is the right to perform
all the ordinances and for the

1444
01:28:31,300 --> 01:28:34,700
temple and otherwise, so that
the kingdom of God can be built

1445
01:28:34,700 --> 01:28:37,700
up and It is one of the the
ceiling keys of Elijah is

1446
01:28:37,700 --> 01:28:41,800
conferred during the second
anointing upon of all these

1447
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:46,000
people.
And so its inherent in that

1448
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:50,200
ordination or that anointing,
that you are now qualified to

1449
01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:54,700
build up the kingdom of God and
fill up any vacancy in the in

1450
01:28:54,700 --> 01:28:57,900
the Church and Kingdom of God
Whenever there is one.

1451
01:28:58,100 --> 01:29:02,600
Now, you are now qualified to
fill those vacancies in fact,

1452
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:05,400
Brigham Young and Joseph Smith
said that they were going to No

1453
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:09,100
matter what office you held in
the church on a technicality,

1454
01:29:09,300 --> 01:29:13,000
you could go off and build up a
branch of the Kingdom at all,

1455
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:16,600
anywhere in the world.
If you had these keys, You're

1456
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:20,000
100% correct.
And and one of the other reasons

1457
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:23,600
I asked that question was to
prove a point, right?

1458
01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:30,100
And that point is this, it's not
until the consolidation and the

1459
01:29:31,500 --> 01:29:34,700
what do they call it?
The correlated period within the

1460
01:29:34,700 --> 01:29:40,200
LDS church.
That this idea of the one-man

1461
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:44,300
Doctrine really becomes Central
because you have Joseph

1462
01:29:44,300 --> 01:29:47,700
statements And pardon the
expression, the ultimate

1463
01:29:47,700 --> 01:29:52,100
hard-ass that was ever in the in
a position of power within the

1464
01:29:52,100 --> 01:29:55,500
LDS church.
Brigham Young himself says, oh

1465
01:29:55,500 --> 01:29:58,200
no, we're going to our gain
others, and give them the

1466
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:03,400
frankness of the priesthood.
Just to make sure that this work

1467
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:07,800
keeps going.
These men were not interested in

1468
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:10,800
in.
I got the word but I don't want

1469
01:30:10,800 --> 01:30:14,900
to use it on here but none of
these guys were you.

1470
01:30:14,900 --> 01:30:17,200
Yeah.
If there's times I wish that

1471
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:20,300
this was a video because your
face would have said it all this

1472
01:30:20,300 --> 01:30:24,100
wasn't a contest of who held
more Authority, right?

1473
01:30:24,100 --> 01:30:29,500
This very much was.
Let's spread this around for a

1474
01:30:29,500 --> 01:30:31,800
safeguard.
Yeah, absolutely.

1475
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:33,600
It was it was the contingency
plan.

1476
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:39,400
It was understood, you know,
there was a conversation with

1477
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:41,900
someone recently over the
Internet.

1478
01:30:42,100 --> 01:30:49,000
It was about 600, s anointings.
160 is some men and their wives,

1479
01:30:49,300 --> 01:30:53,600
you know, anointed to them.
So 160 men with the fullness of

1480
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:59,100
the priesthood, besides the 12
that could fill any position

1481
01:30:59,500 --> 01:31:04,100
within the kingdom of God, could
step up to any position, they

1482
01:31:04,100 --> 01:31:08,900
needed to preside in and not
only that ordained others to any

1483
01:31:08,900 --> 01:31:12,500
office and pass those keys
along, right?

1484
01:31:12,500 --> 01:31:14,300
And Brigham Young made
statements in another time.

1485
01:31:14,300 --> 01:31:17,000
And I don't have the exact In
front of me, where he says, if

1486
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:20,100
the twelve were killed off and
the presidency, what would

1487
01:31:20,100 --> 01:31:22,100
happen?
You know, could have 70 or a

1488
01:31:22,108 --> 01:31:24,600
high priest or the Elder go
forth and build the kingdom of

1489
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:26,300
God?
That's what I think he has

1490
01:31:26,300 --> 01:31:30,400
reference to is that whether
they have those those keys now,

1491
01:31:30,900 --> 01:31:34,000
they have the ability to go
forth with Revelation and fill

1492
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:37,800
up those forms again and
reorganize the leadership in the

1493
01:31:37,800 --> 01:31:41,900
structure you know if they have
that second endowment they have

1494
01:31:41,900 --> 01:31:45,100
the ability to fill those
vacancies apps and build up the

1495
01:31:45,100 --> 01:31:45,900
king.
We got.

1496
01:31:47,700 --> 01:31:49,500
And it takes in and hits the
thing.

1497
01:31:49,500 --> 01:31:52,700
He says Revelation do it by
revelation.

1498
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:56,100
And when you look at Brigham
Young, stepping forward into the

1499
01:31:56,100 --> 01:32:00,100
presidency three years after
Joseph Smith dies, you know,

1500
01:32:00,100 --> 01:32:04,900
bring a horse and hide testified
that it was done by a revelation

1501
01:32:05,500 --> 01:32:08,300
That Shook the neighborhood that
did that the 12 hurt, they were

1502
01:32:08,300 --> 01:32:12,600
meeting in his home in Winter
quarters and he says that the

1503
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:15,700
whole neighborhood heard a the
shaky, you know, there was an

1504
01:32:15,700 --> 01:32:19,500
earthquake and that the 12 heard
the voice of the Lord saying for

1505
01:32:19,500 --> 01:32:22,500
Brigham to step forward and
organize the first presidency.

1506
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:27,900
You mean there wasn't a handbook
that they just follow right now?

1507
01:32:27,900 --> 01:32:32,100
It probably was, I don't know.
Sorry, sorry.

1508
01:32:32,100 --> 01:32:44,000
I apologize.
And it's counterproductive one

1509
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:45,000
thing.
I like two things.

1510
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:46,400
I like to comment on that
statement.

1511
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:49,600
I read though, is that Brigham
said, I don't care who leads the

1512
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:53,100
church, even though we randomly
first off, that's a woman.

1513
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:56,100
Yeah, Joseph Smith said that a
woman is not allowed by the

1514
01:32:56,100 --> 01:32:58,900
revelations of God to lead the
church or organize a church.

1515
01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:05,600
And, and, and Lee, I believe was
one of the spiritual leaders of

1516
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:07,200
the seventh day.
And what became the 7th Day,

1517
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:08,700
Adventist movement, you're
correct.

1518
01:33:08,700 --> 01:33:15,400
Young and he said, we have the
keys and we're going to go build

1519
01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:17,700
up the kingdom to all the
nations and baptize people

1520
01:33:17,700 --> 01:33:20,200
faster than the mobs.
Can kill them, and he's very

1521
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:22,000
careful with his words.
He said, I don't care who

1522
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:25,300
presides in the church, I'm
going to go build up the kingdom

1523
01:33:25,500 --> 01:33:27,200
and he makes a distinction
there.

1524
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:30,000
Very intentionally.
You can do whatever.

1525
01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:32,900
You all by Common consent
people, if you want to appoint

1526
01:33:32,900 --> 01:33:36,600
Sidney Rigdon as your guardian
to the church, I'm taking the 12

1527
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:38,400
and all those who are going to
follow and I'm going to go build

1528
01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:41,400
up the kingdom of God, because
the kingdom of God is separate

1529
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:45,500
from the Church of Christ.
Well, and I think also Brigham

1530
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:47,900
and you can correct me if I'm
wrong here.

1531
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:52,300
I believe Brigham ordained some
of his sons.

1532
01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:58,300
To the apostleship, right?
So he's so he's actually

1533
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:02,800
ordaining.
His children to be Apostles

1534
01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:05,900
outside of the Quorum of The
Twelve Apostles.

1535
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:10,100
Yes, this is true and he lets
see.

1536
01:34:14,500 --> 01:34:18,200
If you believe in Lauren, wooly
teachings, handed down from The

1537
01:34:18,208 --> 01:34:20,400
Woolly side.
It's not the first time either.

1538
01:34:21,100 --> 01:34:23,100
And this goes back to presidency
a little bit.

1539
01:34:23,100 --> 01:34:27,700
When you go back into the
Kirtland period, there's like

1540
01:34:27,700 --> 01:34:31,900
seven presidents right over the
of the Holy order, not in in

1541
01:34:31,900 --> 01:34:34,300
Kirtland, you know?
And if you go through the

1542
01:34:34,300 --> 01:34:37,900
Kirtland, High Council minute
book, you see mentions of the

1543
01:34:37,900 --> 01:34:42,900
Holy order in Kirtland, not just
in Abu and The general

1544
01:34:42,900 --> 01:34:45,500
authorities of the church.
If I'm remembering correctly, at

1545
01:34:45,500 --> 01:34:51,300
that time was Joseph Smith
junior, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver

1546
01:34:51,300 --> 01:34:54,000
cowdery Hyrum Smith Joseph
Smith.

1547
01:34:54,000 --> 01:35:00,300
Senior Frederick G Williams.
And I think w w Phelps and their

1548
01:35:00,300 --> 01:35:02,500
seven present and they were all
called presidents.

1549
01:35:02,900 --> 01:35:05,100
Yep.
All seven presidents.

1550
01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:13,800
And and Oliver, according to
Brigham Young was ordained an

1551
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:17,900
apostle, the same as Joseph
Smith, and so they were Apostles

1552
01:35:17,900 --> 01:35:19,600
outside.
The Quorum of The Twelve Joseph

1553
01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:22,100
and all over there.
You know, and I'm not going to

1554
01:35:22,108 --> 01:35:23,600
say whether or not the other
seven.

1555
01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:25,900
I mentioned, were also
considered a pauses or not, but

1556
01:35:25,900 --> 01:35:30,400
doesn't really matter to me.
But Brigham Young pass on this

1557
01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:33,800
apostleship to three of his sons
was John, John Willard young

1558
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:36,900
Joseph agnel, young, and
Brigham, Junior.

1559
01:35:38,100 --> 01:35:42,200
And then he told he revealed
that fact to John Taylor Wilford

1560
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:46,600
Woodruff George A Smith and
Joseph A Smith or Joseph F Smith

1561
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:50,200
and he said you all have the
privilege of doing likewise to

1562
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:54,900
your sons and setting them forth
to and put them to work in the

1563
01:35:54,900 --> 01:36:02,600
kingdom of God.
Yeah, I think we look at keys in

1564
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:08,800
in a very exclusive, with a
level of exclusive exclusive.

1565
01:36:09,300 --> 01:36:11,000
Excuse me, I'm having a rough
time talking.

1566
01:36:11,300 --> 01:36:16,200
We look at the keys as being
exclusive to a, at least one, or

1567
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:19,100
maybe even a set of people,
right?

1568
01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:26,400
But if you go back. and you
look, The early church fathers,

1569
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:31,300
if you will didn't have that
same view, no.

1570
01:36:32,900 --> 01:36:35,200
No, in fact, she wanted to go to
the early church fathers.

1571
01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:38,000
It's really interesting.
You know, I think Arguments for

1572
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:40,800
made why the bishop of Rome
should preside but he's still

1573
01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:46,800
just a bishop Yeah, you know
why, the bishop of Rome over any

1574
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:48,800
other Bishop appointed to the
same priest?

1575
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:52,900
And if you will, you know, why
does he automatically get to

1576
01:36:52,900 --> 01:36:55,300
preside over?
All the other Bishops, you know,

1577
01:36:55,300 --> 01:37:00,600
both theoretical equal pleasee a
school Authority, and and things

1578
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:05,100
were invented and maintained so
that the that the papacy and the

1579
01:37:05,100 --> 01:37:08,700
petrine appointments and
whatever, you know, Justified

1580
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:10,600
that but there's just problems
there as well.

1581
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:15,300
We don't need to get into that
but you see That problem to an

1582
01:37:15,300 --> 01:37:18,200
extent is perpetuated itself in
the church that mentality.

1583
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:24,200
And ins and and fundamentalism.
No, no one is innocent here with

1584
01:37:24,700 --> 01:37:27,100
procedure.
I don't think we're truly being

1585
01:37:27,100 --> 01:37:30,100
honest with ourselves on
Principle as fundamentalist with

1586
01:37:30,100 --> 01:37:33,600
principles regarding how we
should govern ourselves here.

1587
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:37,700
And I'm not saying that having
the second anointing justifies,

1588
01:37:37,700 --> 01:37:40,100
you completely and running off
and doing whatever the heck you

1589
01:37:40,100 --> 01:37:42,000
want.
I think you're silly.

1590
01:37:42,100 --> 01:37:44,600
I absolutely Think You're darn
silly if you want to go and do

1591
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:47,800
that and you're robbing yourself
of the blessings of

1592
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:51,300
communicating and So she dating
other people building up the

1593
01:37:51,300 --> 01:37:55,200
commute the kingdom of God,
which doing that you need a live

1594
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:56,600
law of consecration.
What are you gonna do?

1595
01:37:56,600 --> 01:38:01,500
Consecrated to yourself, you
know, you know you you there are

1596
01:38:01,500 --> 01:38:04,600
these things that we need to do
together and if we're not

1597
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:07,400
ultimately even if we're not
we're not even exalted or not,

1598
01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:12,200
he's altogether, you know, right
on a theological standpoint.

1599
01:38:12,200 --> 01:38:15,600
So why I'm not advocating that
that a king and a priest with

1600
01:38:15,600 --> 01:38:19,100
the fullness of the priesthood
can go forth and do whatever the

1601
01:38:19,100 --> 01:38:23,300
heck he wants to nilly Willy.
You're silly, I think you're

1602
01:38:23,300 --> 01:38:25,100
silly.
If you do that you're robbing

1603
01:38:25,100 --> 01:38:28,800
the influence you could have on
people that could be considered

1604
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:32,300
your file leaders and you're not
you're not doing your job in my

1605
01:38:32,300 --> 01:38:33,700
opinion of holding them
accountable.

1606
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:36,300
Right?
No I agree.

1607
01:38:37,700 --> 01:38:41,800
I agree with you, 100%.
All right.

1608
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:44,400
Well, I again, I derail this.
I apologize.

1609
01:38:45,100 --> 01:38:46,900
And I think we touched on some
good stuff there.

1610
01:38:48,300 --> 01:38:50,200
Let's do any questions or
directions?

1611
01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:52,900
I got, no, I got something else
about comic consent in the

1612
01:38:52,900 --> 01:38:55,200
church.
The real lucky, let's hit that.

1613
01:38:55,900 --> 01:39:02,400
So November 30th 1847 Brigham,
Young said, you know, in a

1614
01:39:02,407 --> 01:39:04,500
priesthood meeting to the with
the twelve.

1615
01:39:04,600 --> 01:39:08,000
If men are elected by this
church, it is by-election.

1616
01:39:08,900 --> 01:39:13,100
Joseph was ordained an apostle.
But the church elected him as

1617
01:39:13,100 --> 01:39:16,200
president Prophet Seer and
Revelator, but he was never

1618
01:39:16,200 --> 01:39:19,400
ordained to that office.
Meaning he was never ordained to

1619
01:39:19,407 --> 01:39:21,300
the office of Prophecy or
Revelator.

1620
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:25,300
Joseph was ordained.
An apostle by Oliver cowdery.

1621
01:39:25,400 --> 01:39:28,100
They receive their ordination
from Peter, James, and John

1622
01:39:28,100 --> 01:39:32,000
before there was a church, no
man has the right to regulate

1623
01:39:32,000 --> 01:39:34,000
the church, unless he was an
apostle.

1624
01:39:34,700 --> 01:39:37,000
Every Apostle has the Keys of
the Kingdom.

1625
01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:41,500
Wow.
So there's a couple things that

1626
01:39:41,500 --> 01:39:44,000
jumped out to me there.
Oh, there's a lot there.

1627
01:39:45,400 --> 01:39:50,800
The the first thing that jumps
out to me is that the president

1628
01:39:50,800 --> 01:39:54,800
of the church, doesn't
necessarily automatically make

1629
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:56,600
you a prophet Seer and
Revelator.

1630
01:39:57,500 --> 01:40:02,200
Oh yes, you're absolutely right.
It doesn't that that is simply

1631
01:40:04,300 --> 01:40:08,200
the president of the church is
simply a function of presiding

1632
01:40:09,000 --> 01:40:13,100
right, we touched on earlier I
think so the next thing that

1633
01:40:13,100 --> 01:40:16,700
jumps out to me about that
statement is that there were

1634
01:40:16,700 --> 01:40:21,200
Apostles before there was a
church Right.

1635
01:40:23,400 --> 01:40:25,400
In fact, I believe in one of
those priests in meetings as

1636
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:27,500
well.
Bring them read that in which,

1637
01:40:27,500 --> 01:40:30,400
whatever pistol isn't in in the
in the New Testament where it

1638
01:40:30,400 --> 01:40:35,000
says God gives first apostles
then prophets and evangelists.

1639
01:40:35,300 --> 01:40:38,700
You know, and goes down the
line, you know, saying up and

1640
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:40,100
do.
There's a beautiful speech in

1641
01:40:40,100 --> 01:40:41,300
the Journal of discourses, I
don't know.

1642
01:40:41,308 --> 01:40:42,400
I'll have to send it to you
later.

1643
01:40:42,400 --> 01:40:48,300
I don't have the citation right
now but he's Brigham actually.

1644
01:40:48,300 --> 01:40:50,300
I know where it is.
Not the site.

1645
01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:51,900
Shouldn't, but it touches on
this.

1646
01:40:52,200 --> 01:40:56,000
There's another instance where
Brigham Young says he's

1647
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:57,300
tempting, dude.
He's tempting.

1648
01:40:57,300 --> 01:40:59,600
The people so hard.
He says, let me.

1649
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:01,500
Let me give you a stumbling
block.

1650
01:41:01,500 --> 01:41:04,600
You know, I want to give you
some information that if not

1651
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:06,600
understood correctly.
This is going to cause some of

1652
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:08,200
the elders in Israel, to
stumble.

1653
01:41:08,500 --> 01:41:11,700
But being the president of this
church, does not make you the

1654
01:41:11,700 --> 01:41:13,600
prophet of it.
Or he says, being a prophet,

1655
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:15,500
does not make you the president
of this church.

1656
01:41:17,200 --> 01:41:20,200
And he gives that that rhetoric
and there's some other things.

1657
01:41:20,400 --> 01:41:24,200
In that speech that I've never
seen quoted anywhere else, but I

1658
01:41:24,200 --> 01:41:27,100
love because he gives a
dissertation on the apostleship

1659
01:41:27,300 --> 01:41:31,000
and how it comprehends the rest
to the office of the priesthood.

1660
01:41:31,100 --> 01:41:36,400
It's in, my opinion is beautiful
and he, he talks about how when

1661
01:41:36,400 --> 01:41:39,300
they were laying the Corner
Stones of the temple, how they

1662
01:41:39,300 --> 01:41:43,200
did it, or how they were going
to do it.

1663
01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:46,500
And with the apostleship first,
I think I don't know who was

1664
01:41:46,500 --> 01:41:51,100
Far, West, or or whichever one
or Nauvoo the Did it.

1665
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:56,200
And then the high priest, or the
Nothin, the bishop, and the

1666
01:41:56,208 --> 01:42:00,300
second Cornerstone, and then it
was the elders and then the 70s

1667
01:42:00,700 --> 01:42:04,600
didn't both the fourth one.
And so he showed that the

1668
01:42:04,600 --> 01:42:09,100
apostleship and the 70
apostleship started and finished

1669
01:42:09,100 --> 01:42:12,000
in that, the priesthood
comprehended and completely

1670
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:15,800
circumscribed in a circle, all
the other offices of the whole,

1671
01:42:15,800 --> 01:42:18,900
you know, of the temple, you
know, right at the temple there,

1672
01:42:18,900 --> 01:42:21,900
you know, and I thought It was
the way he relates it way better

1673
01:42:21,900 --> 01:42:24,100
than me.
It's beautiful.

1674
01:42:24,200 --> 01:42:27,000
I think it was very inspired.
There's a lot of people out

1675
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:30,700
there who will debate a what
that an apostle has the right to

1676
01:42:30,700 --> 01:42:33,100
do what they have to do that.
They only have the right to

1677
01:42:33,108 --> 01:42:38,200
preside over the Affairs of the
mission field and that they

1678
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:42,100
can't go into organized stakes
and branches and set them in

1679
01:42:42,100 --> 01:42:44,800
order that's true.
And it's not true at the same

1680
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:47,500
time you can if you're set since
bye.

1681
01:42:48,200 --> 01:42:54,600
The president of the church but
people can downplay the

1682
01:42:54,600 --> 01:42:57,000
apostleship too much.
I feel like and I think that

1683
01:42:57,000 --> 01:43:01,100
it's understood in some
instances that this apostleship

1684
01:43:01,100 --> 01:43:04,900
should be held in common with
the fullness of the priesthood,

1685
01:43:04,900 --> 01:43:07,900
right?
And that's the fullness of the

1686
01:43:07,900 --> 01:43:13,900
apostleship or what, I like to
call it an anointed Apostle and

1687
01:43:13,900 --> 01:43:16,100
let's see if it was Stephen.
Let's let's address some

1688
01:43:16,100 --> 01:43:18,100
historical revisionism.
There's some people out there.

1689
01:43:18,200 --> 01:43:22,000
R who they don't like the high
priest, Apostle term in

1690
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:25,400
fundamentalism because it seems
to be inventive, right?

1691
01:43:26,700 --> 01:43:31,400
And it's very interesting to me,
because there was a debate in

1692
01:43:31,400 --> 01:43:36,700
the church, whether who had more
Authority, a high priest, or a

1693
01:43:36,700 --> 01:43:39,600
70 Apostle.
And that argument is as old as

1694
01:43:39,600 --> 01:43:43,100
the church essentially, as soon
as the offices of high priest

1695
01:43:43,100 --> 01:43:47,400
and 70 Apostle were were were
instituted, there's been a

1696
01:43:47,400 --> 01:43:52,700
debate Amongst both forums who
presides over who and when and

1697
01:43:52,700 --> 01:43:56,300
where, and all that.
And so I think it's kind of

1698
01:43:56,300 --> 01:44:00,800
funny, you know, From a
historical revisionist

1699
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:04,100
standpoint.
I can see Lauren, will they say,

1700
01:44:04,100 --> 01:44:05,900
you know, we're going to put
this whole thing to bed right

1701
01:44:05,900 --> 01:44:08,400
now, working.
We're going to come by a priest,

1702
01:44:08,400 --> 01:44:15,200
an apostle, you know, right?
This to bed right now and and

1703
01:44:15,200 --> 01:44:19,600
I've seen that in the records
with George Albert Smith when

1704
01:44:19,600 --> 01:44:23,400
Joseph F Smith as president of
the church ordained George

1705
01:44:23,400 --> 01:44:27,400
Albert Smith as an apostle, he
ordained him a high priest first

1706
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:31,500
and then ordained him in a fog.
But then when you compare

1707
01:44:31,500 --> 01:44:36,700
Brigham Young, he said that the
apartment 70 is an apostle just

1708
01:44:36,700 --> 01:44:40,300
the same as an apostle hours and
it's the same priesthood, you

1709
01:44:40,300 --> 01:44:43,000
know.
You know it's just that the 70

1710
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:46,700
or total told work under the
12th, right.

1711
01:44:47,300 --> 01:44:51,100
And I have my own nuances on 70
apostleship to but this idea I

1712
01:44:51,100 --> 01:44:54,100
think truly is that the
apostleship should be with the

1713
01:44:54,100 --> 01:44:58,600
fullness of the priesthood is an
anointed Apostle or barely a

1714
01:44:58,600 --> 01:45:03,000
high.
East comma, Apostle Karma and

1715
01:45:03,000 --> 01:45:09,100
patriarchy because the second
anointing gives you the call the

1716
01:45:09,100 --> 01:45:11,400
ability to be qualified to fill
any office.

1717
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:12,600
And that's what Lauren will lie
in.

1718
01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:16,500
Those guys were given allegedly
were that.

1719
01:45:16,500 --> 01:45:19,700
You can operate as high priest
Apostles and Patriarchs.

1720
01:45:19,700 --> 01:45:22,100
But I'm reading between the
lines, they're saying is high

1721
01:45:22,100 --> 01:45:25,800
priest, calma Apostle, Colour
and Patriarchs.

1722
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:28,500
Basically, I'm giving you a
commission.

1723
01:45:29,300 --> 01:45:33,100
To fill all the to have to be
able to fill all these vacancies

1724
01:45:33,100 --> 01:45:34,500
here.
No, I'm not.

1725
01:45:34,900 --> 01:45:40,200
I think that holds water based
off of that previous section.

1726
01:45:40,200 --> 01:45:44,900
We read their where it talks
about giving the fullness of the

1727
01:45:44,900 --> 01:45:48,200
Gospel of the fullness of the
priesthood Too Many Men.

1728
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:51,600
I think I think your statement
there is backed up by what

1729
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:54,600
Brigham said, you know II like
to think so.

1730
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:57,200
I hope people can get the sphere
of that because it's something

1731
01:45:57,200 --> 01:45:59,000
that some people struggle with
in down.

1732
01:45:59,200 --> 01:46:02,800
In the apostleship is that you
can only preside in the mission

1733
01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:10,100
field, the high priest a i the
high priest should preside but I

1734
01:46:10,100 --> 01:46:12,600
I personally do not feel
comfortable in downplaying.

1735
01:46:13,400 --> 01:46:17,200
Very strong statements from
Brigham, Young about the

1736
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:22,400
responsibilities and privileges
of the apostleship No, no.

1737
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:30,900
And This is where Nuance is
really needed, right is awesome.

1738
01:46:30,900 --> 01:46:34,200
I fully admit that.
And this is where you have to

1739
01:46:34,200 --> 01:46:38,600
take that.
And, and again, not being able

1740
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:43,100
to take a blanket approach to
all of these things, right?

1741
01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:49,500
There's things that bring them
did and things Joseph, did to

1742
01:46:50,300 --> 01:46:54,200
assure that the work would go
forward, no matter what, and

1743
01:46:54,200 --> 01:46:59,000
then Times that Brigham can't
Brigham makes comments that are

1744
01:46:59,000 --> 01:47:02,500
specific to the current
situation that he's in.

1745
01:47:02,500 --> 01:47:06,400
Where the church is functioning
pretty close to fully at that

1746
01:47:06,400 --> 01:47:10,100
point, right?
And so, we have to be nuanced

1747
01:47:10,300 --> 01:47:15,000
and how you approach, especially
Brigham's statements, right?

1748
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:17,900
Yes everywhere.
The context and, and everything

1749
01:47:17,900 --> 01:47:19,100
pertaining to it.
I think.

1750
01:47:19,100 --> 01:47:21,100
And, and the historical context
of things.

1751
01:47:21,100 --> 01:47:25,200
If you just, if you just Read
it.

1752
01:47:26,400 --> 01:47:30,000
And then just try to make
blanket statements based off of

1753
01:47:30,200 --> 01:47:32,700
one passage.
You're going to confuse your

1754
01:47:32,700 --> 01:47:35,900
family and you're going to
confuse yourself, you have to

1755
01:47:35,900 --> 01:47:39,900
know the context and you have to
be able to understand the

1756
01:47:39,907 --> 01:47:44,500
historical background to get the
full idea of what idea, Brigham

1757
01:47:44,500 --> 01:47:49,700
is trying to drive home at that
moment, because I think in that

1758
01:47:49,700 --> 01:47:53,100
previous section, we read about
giving the fullness of the

1759
01:47:53,100 --> 01:48:00,200
priesthood to too many.
He's In a cent in essence saying

1760
01:48:00,400 --> 01:48:05,700
if the worst should happen and
the US government comes in here

1761
01:48:05,700 --> 01:48:08,300
and kills a bunch of us or puts
us in jail.

1762
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:12,300
We've ordained enough men to the
fullness of the priesthood that

1763
01:48:12,300 --> 01:48:15,000
this thing will keep going.
Other times.

1764
01:48:15,200 --> 01:48:18,500
He's talking in general
conference and he's expounding

1765
01:48:18,500 --> 01:48:23,100
upon apostleship with the idea
that the church is functioning

1766
01:48:23,100 --> 01:48:25,700
pretty closely to the way, it
should write them.

1767
01:48:26,100 --> 01:48:30,000
And so he's trying, he's trying
to get that across, but you're

1768
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,900
not going to know either.
Those seem to be competing

1769
01:48:32,900 --> 01:48:39,300
statements, unless they're not.
But they if you understand

1770
01:48:39,300 --> 01:48:42,000
context and history, they're
not.

1771
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:45,100
If you don't understand the
history and context, they seem

1772
01:48:45,100 --> 01:48:50,000
to be in competition or in
conflict and so knowing the

1773
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:56,500
background is so vital in these
conversations, I shouldn't say

1774
01:48:56,500 --> 01:48:59,300
better than not as well.
I absolutely think that's

1775
01:48:59,300 --> 01:49:01,600
correct.
You know, and that goes back to

1776
01:49:01,600 --> 01:49:04,700
in general conferences, stuff
like you're saying is there

1777
01:49:04,700 --> 01:49:06,900
needs to be respect for order
you know.

1778
01:49:06,900 --> 01:49:10,200
And I'm not discounting that
that there I believe full

1779
01:49:10,200 --> 01:49:11,900
heartedly that there is an order
to the priesthood.

1780
01:49:11,900 --> 01:49:18,000
For example, one thing for sure
is, the priests of the

1781
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:19,800
government of the priesthood is
patriarchal.

1782
01:49:20,300 --> 01:49:23,400
Yeah, you know, that is a ninja
I'd say, even without the

1783
01:49:23,400 --> 01:49:27,100
priesthood.
Human Nature by natural law

1784
01:49:27,100 --> 01:49:31,700
functions better with without
with a patriarchal structure

1785
01:49:31,700 --> 01:49:36,400
than without one in my opinion.
But there's also other ways with

1786
01:49:36,400 --> 01:49:39,500
priesthood, that's not priests,
it does operate.

1787
01:49:40,600 --> 01:49:45,000
Not just pay sharply, but
fraternally between brethren in

1788
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:47,400
these forms in these councils
that were talking about, and

1789
01:49:47,400 --> 01:49:52,700
there's rules for that.
And there's once there is one

1790
01:49:52,700 --> 01:49:58,300
statement, we're going back to
presidency versus prophethood.

1791
01:49:58,300 --> 01:50:05,700
I'd like to comment on Apple
that too. so instead

1792
01:50:05,700 --> 01:50:08,000
interestingly enough, you know,
you actually have statement of

1793
01:50:08,000 --> 01:50:13,900
Brigham Young It does not mean
to be a prophet of this church

1794
01:50:13,900 --> 01:50:15,900
that you necessarily the
president of the church.

1795
01:50:16,700 --> 01:50:22,100
We saw some of that historically
with John W Taylor who was, and

1796
01:50:22,100 --> 01:50:24,300
I don't know if this was tongue
in cheek or a kind of a jab at

1797
01:50:24,300 --> 01:50:28,300
him for his personality, but he
was he got the nickname profit

1798
01:50:28,300 --> 01:50:36,100
of the Quorum eating profit of.
He was the one making thus saith

1799
01:50:36,100 --> 01:50:39,800
the Lord statements and he was
in that he was exercise.

1800
01:50:39,900 --> 01:50:42,600
And the gift of and spirit of
Prophecy, but he was just a

1801
01:50:42,608 --> 01:50:44,200
member of the Quorum of The
Twelve Apostles.

1802
01:50:44,200 --> 01:50:46,900
And he was never even the senior
member of the Quorum of The

1803
01:50:46,900 --> 01:50:49,600
Twelve Apostles.
But he was the one exercising

1804
01:50:50,300 --> 01:50:53,400
that gift.
And so he got that nickname.

1805
01:50:54,200 --> 01:50:59,200
Yeah, and I think that maybe
maybe that was given to him by

1806
01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:01,900
Heber J Grant or who knows, me
knows like a little

1807
01:51:02,000 --> 01:51:06,100
whippersnapper thinks he can
just be that bold and declare

1808
01:51:06,100 --> 01:51:08,600
thus saith the Lord statements.
I don't know, maybe it was a

1809
01:51:08,608 --> 01:51:11,500
term of endearment I have No
idea, but I think it's

1810
01:51:11,500 --> 01:51:14,700
interesting nonetheless that to
give it as an example.

1811
01:51:15,800 --> 01:51:19,600
And again, you'd look just love
to have some sort of historical

1812
01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:24,300
context or even maybe just the
tone of somebody's voice that

1813
01:51:24,300 --> 01:51:28,000
would, that would give you some
idea of what they were talking

1814
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:33,400
about, you know, where they
really making a, a jab at them

1815
01:51:33,400 --> 01:51:35,600
or were they sincere in the
sense that?

1816
01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:38,000
Wow, this guy is really in tune.
What is it?

1817
01:51:39,000 --> 01:51:40,800
Well, I personally That it was
in tune.

1818
01:51:41,500 --> 01:51:45,300
I do too John W.
Taylor is like one of the

1819
01:51:45,300 --> 01:51:47,500
biggest folk Heroes of Mormonism
life.

1820
01:51:47,600 --> 01:51:53,800
In my opinion, I agree.
I agree, wholeheartedly But

1821
01:51:53,800 --> 01:51:56,900
yeah.
So do you have any questions for

1822
01:51:56,900 --> 01:52:00,100
me then transition or I don't
think so.

1823
01:52:00,100 --> 01:52:01,700
I think I think we covered that
pretty.

1824
01:52:01,700 --> 01:52:07,000
Well, there's a so earlier when
we were talking about the unity

1825
01:52:07,000 --> 01:52:12,000
card versus the seniority card,
I mentioned in my notes 1880

1826
01:52:12,000 --> 01:52:16,800
Revelation.
So this to me In a big way it

1827
01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:21,100
helped me understand cuz my
present understanding of

1828
01:52:21,300 --> 01:52:25,200
priesthood and it's in the what
is considered the for hidden

1829
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:29,600
Revelations.
It's a this is so interesting to

1830
01:52:29,608 --> 01:52:37,800
me, it's the 1880 Revelation
given to Wilford Woodruff and So

1831
01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:42,600
the for hidden Revelations, are
the 1880 Revelation to Woodruff

1832
01:52:42,600 --> 01:52:46,300
the 1889 Revelation to Woodruff
when he was president of the

1833
01:52:46,300 --> 01:52:52,000
church and then there was the
1882 revelation of John Taylor

1834
01:52:52,000 --> 01:52:57,000
and the famous 1886 Revelation.
So to me, historically, this is

1835
01:52:57,000 --> 01:53:00,300
super interesting because in
1880, John Taylor is the

1836
01:53:00,300 --> 01:53:03,200
president of the Quorum of the
twelve and he's alive.

1837
01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:05,100
But Wilford Woodruff is out
there.

1838
01:53:05,100 --> 01:53:10,100
And by Sunset Arizona, You know,
with locksmith and they're doing

1839
01:53:10,100 --> 01:53:12,400
their United order type stuff
out there, whatever.

1840
01:53:13,400 --> 01:53:18,600
And he there's questions,
burning, and willful just heart

1841
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:21,500
regarding order in the
priesthood and all these things

1842
01:53:21,500 --> 01:53:24,800
in the 18, I will hands down.
Stay out of the forehead and

1843
01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:27,300
Revelations.
The 1880 Revelation is my

1844
01:53:27,300 --> 01:53:32,400
favorite one.
And a lot of answers pertaining

1845
01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:34,400
to these principles in these
questions that were asking, are

1846
01:53:34,400 --> 01:53:35,900
found in this, in this
Revelation.

1847
01:53:35,900 --> 01:53:38,800
I think I'll read some of that
to you here.

1848
01:53:39,600 --> 01:53:45,600
In this Revelation, the Lord
asks, I wish to ask the rest of

1849
01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:47,900
my Servants of the Apostles, the
question.

1850
01:53:48,700 --> 01:53:52,500
Although you have one to preside
over your Quorum, which is the

1851
01:53:52,500 --> 01:53:57,400
order of God in all generations,
do you not all of you hold the

1852
01:53:57,400 --> 01:54:00,700
apostleship, which is the
highest Authority ever.

1853
01:54:00,700 --> 01:54:04,900
Given to Men on Earth, you do
there for you?

1854
01:54:04,900 --> 01:54:09,300
Hold in common, the Keys of the
Kingdom of God in all the world.

1855
01:54:09,700 --> 01:54:13,600
You, each of you have the power
to unlock the vale of eternal

1856
01:54:13,700 --> 01:54:17,600
The D and hold converse with
God, the father and his son

1857
01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:20,500
Jesus Christ and to have the
ministration of angels.

1858
01:54:21,200 --> 01:54:25,600
It is your right privilege and
duty to inquire of the Lord as

1859
01:54:25,600 --> 01:54:28,800
to his mind and will concerning
yourselves and the inhabitants

1860
01:54:28,800 --> 01:54:33,700
of Zion and their interests.
And this is beautiful here and

1861
01:54:33,700 --> 01:54:37,100
whenever any of you receives the
word of the Lord, let it be

1862
01:54:37,100 --> 01:54:40,400
written and presented in your
counsels and whatever.

1863
01:54:40,400 --> 01:54:43,800
By United consent, you deem
wisdom to be presented unto the

1864
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:46,000
people.
Let it be presented by the

1865
01:54:46,000 --> 01:54:49,700
president by servant, John
Taylor, as the word of the Lord.

1866
01:54:50,400 --> 01:54:53,500
In this way, you will uphold him
and strengthen his hands.

1867
01:54:53,800 --> 01:54:56,300
As all the burden, should not
lie.

1868
01:54:56,300 --> 01:55:01,600
Upon one man for thus saith the
Lord, all mine.'.

1869
01:55:01,700 --> 01:55:05,700
Soul shall be full of the Holy
Ghost of an inspiration, and a

1870
01:55:05,708 --> 01:55:09,300
revelation to know the mind and
will of God and be prepared for

1871
01:55:09,300 --> 01:55:13,200
that which is to come.
Therefore, let mine Apostles.

1872
01:55:13,200 --> 01:55:17,200
Keep my Commandments and obey my
voice and the Very Gates of Hell

1873
01:55:17,300 --> 01:55:20,800
shall not Prevail against you
that thing lays it out.

1874
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:22,700
Beautifully.
Sure does.

1875
01:55:23,700 --> 01:55:30,300
Because, in some ways that
statement is a little bit of

1876
01:55:30,300 --> 01:55:32,000
the, the unity car.
Hard.

1877
01:55:32,600 --> 01:55:35,300
And it's a little bit of the
one-man card.

1878
01:55:36,500 --> 01:55:40,300
You could see how it could tie
in a little bit to the seniority

1879
01:55:40,300 --> 01:55:45,600
cars right here.
The the unity being all of you

1880
01:55:45,600 --> 01:55:48,500
must agree on this.
If somebody gets the word of the

1881
01:55:48,500 --> 01:55:52,500
Lord, this is a Fail-Safe,
right?

1882
01:55:52,500 --> 01:55:56,500
It is we're going to all agree
on this or this is not going

1883
01:55:56,500 --> 01:55:59,800
forward.
This this kind of pays homage if

1884
01:55:59,800 --> 01:56:01,600
you will to what your father
says about.

1885
01:56:01,700 --> 01:56:03,100
Walk.
Sometimes it can be a good

1886
01:56:03,100 --> 01:56:04,900
thing.
Yeah.

1887
01:56:05,700 --> 01:56:11,700
And likewise once it's been All
United once everyone's United.

1888
01:56:11,700 --> 01:56:14,500
Hey, this is this is right?
This is good.

1889
01:56:14,500 --> 01:56:19,000
We've all received Revelation on
it, then it's presented by the

1890
01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:23,600
president of the Quorum, if you
will or, or John Taylor to the

1891
01:56:23,600 --> 01:56:29,800
body of the Saints, this is how
it should operate this and it

1892
01:56:29,800 --> 01:56:34,400
kind of takes the best of all
the those cards we talked about,

1893
01:56:34,700 --> 01:56:37,200
right?
And and allows it to function.

1894
01:56:38,700 --> 01:56:41,700
Yeah it's order.
This to me is the order and it's

1895
01:56:41,700 --> 01:56:44,300
the correct order and that was
the rhetorical question that God

1896
01:56:44,300 --> 01:56:48,900
asks you an answer you that this
is the order of God in all

1897
01:56:48,900 --> 01:56:51,500
generations.
That you have a council that the

1898
01:56:51,500 --> 01:56:55,700
apostles are there that you hold
the keys in common with each

1899
01:56:55,700 --> 01:56:57,900
other.
But there is one set apart to

1900
01:56:57,900 --> 01:57:00,500
preside and keep order in your
counsels.

1901
01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:06,200
You know and this thing is, you
know, DNC 88 this thing is

1902
01:57:06,200 --> 01:57:08,600
beautiful.
You know is what the Lord says.

1903
01:57:09,200 --> 01:57:11,300
In regards to the teacher
appointed in the school of

1904
01:57:11,300 --> 01:57:15,100
prophets to be the one to be the
spokesman and to be the to greet

1905
01:57:15,100 --> 01:57:17,100
and Tall, you know, to the
people when they come in and

1906
01:57:17,100 --> 01:57:20,300
call order to the meeting, this
is beautiful to the Lord to have

1907
01:57:20,300 --> 01:57:27,900
that, you need to have that kind
of order but It does not mean in

1908
01:57:27,900 --> 01:57:31,800
and out of order condition that
you cannot proceed with the keys

1909
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:35,800
that you've been ordained to and
do the work that you feel that

1910
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:39,400
you need to.
But I will say, can't be

1911
01:57:39,400 --> 01:57:43,500
cautious for whatever you do.
You will be accountable for

1912
01:57:43,900 --> 01:57:48,600
essentially, you know, to the
Lord for at least, partially for

1913
01:57:48,600 --> 01:57:49,900
what you do because you can't
control.

1914
01:57:49,900 --> 01:57:51,300
What someone else is going to
go, do.

1915
01:57:53,100 --> 01:57:55,900
In your name or in, you know, if
you give them Authority or

1916
01:57:55,900 --> 01:58:01,100
whatever and their sales days
for that to, you know, but you

1917
01:58:01,100 --> 01:58:04,100
are gonna be responsible for the
way that you magnify, your

1918
01:58:04,100 --> 01:58:11,200
priesthood and life.
And and, and so when I see John

1919
01:58:11,200 --> 01:58:14,400
W Taylor, Matthias Cowley, and
other Apostles in the Quorum of

1920
01:58:14,400 --> 01:58:16,700
The Twelve going in perpetuating
plural, marriage.

1921
01:58:17,400 --> 01:58:20,100
They were doing that on their
own responsibility and people

1922
01:58:20,100 --> 01:58:23,400
will go ask President Joseph F
Smith Can we go enter the

1923
01:58:23,400 --> 01:58:25,700
plural, marriage?
And even say, as president of

1924
01:58:25,700 --> 01:58:30,500
the church, I cannot, I cannot
give you an endorsement to do

1925
01:58:30,500 --> 01:58:33,800
that, but I know a man who knows
the stealing ceremony or

1926
01:58:33,800 --> 01:58:36,100
something like that.
Yeah, I know what he said.

1927
01:58:36,100 --> 01:58:38,800
I read that couple different
times.

1928
01:58:39,100 --> 01:58:41,600
What he would say is, is as the
president of the church.

1929
01:58:41,600 --> 01:58:44,000
I cannot put my stamp of
approval on it.

1930
01:58:44,000 --> 01:58:47,600
However, if you can find the
authority, God bless you, right?

1931
01:58:47,700 --> 01:58:49,800
Yeah, and those, those are the
games that are being played in

1932
01:58:49,800 --> 01:58:55,500
John W, Taylor Matthias Cowley.
John Henry, Smith, George

1933
01:58:55,500 --> 01:59:02,000
Teasdale, Mariner Merrill.
Roger Clawson, I could go on and

1934
01:59:02,000 --> 01:59:05,000
on all these apostles were off
doing that.

1935
01:59:05,100 --> 01:59:08,500
And then Francis M.
Lyman goes on a Witch Hunt when

1936
01:59:08,500 --> 01:59:11,500
he finds out how pervasive all
these other Apostles are doing

1937
01:59:11,500 --> 01:59:14,200
this without going through him
as president of the core.

1938
01:59:14,900 --> 01:59:16,100
Yep.
Yeah.

1939
01:59:17,400 --> 01:59:20,900
Sanction, because he was fine
with doing plural marriages for

1940
01:59:20,900 --> 01:59:23,000
other members of the Quorum of
12.

1941
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:27,100
As long as they came to him, you
know, and he would ratify that

1942
01:59:27,100 --> 01:59:27,900
it was.
Okay.

1943
01:59:28,000 --> 01:59:30,500
So he was very much a fan of
this elitist.

1944
01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:33,100
You know, the 12 can continue to
take plural wives after the

1945
01:59:33,108 --> 01:59:35,900
manifesto but none of the other
12 crew often.

1946
01:59:35,900 --> 01:59:38,900
Help other people enter, it's
good, you know?

1947
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:42,600
Yeah, that's an interesting time
in church history, because

1948
01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:45,700
especially with that statement
by Joseph F Smith, I could

1949
01:59:45,700 --> 01:59:50,200
almost in my mind's eye, see him
say and God bless you, can find

1950
01:59:50,200 --> 01:59:53,300
someone with the authority and
then kind of like not Ting over

1951
01:59:53,300 --> 01:59:56,200
towards John W.
Taylor like yeah, over over.

1952
01:59:56,200 --> 02:00:01,400
There we go.
Good talk to him. if you believe

1953
02:00:01,400 --> 02:00:06,000
Joseph monster, you know, he
received and I wonder, I wonder

1954
02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:08,800
who administered the Blessed his
second blessings in the temple

1955
02:00:08,800 --> 02:00:13,700
but he was called in the weekend
of Thanksgiving November and

1956
02:00:13,800 --> 02:00:18,200
1899, 1899.
And I don't know who performed

1957
02:00:18,200 --> 02:00:20,600
the ordinance for him was
probably Lorenzo Snow or Joseph

1958
02:00:20,600 --> 02:00:26,900
F Smith though, I imagine and he
got a letter and I think it was

1959
02:00:27,100 --> 02:00:29,000
shooed.
Now, I want to say it was John

1960
02:00:29,000 --> 02:00:32,200
Henry Smith who delivered the
letter saying that if you don't

1961
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:35,200
enter into the The order of
celestial plural, marriage, your

1962
02:00:35,200 --> 02:00:36,500
blessings will be taken from
you.

1963
02:00:37,000 --> 02:00:40,900
And so, he went and found
Mathias Kali, they did that and

1964
02:00:40,900 --> 02:00:43,100
afterwards Joseph.
F Smith can and found him on the

1965
02:00:43,100 --> 02:00:45,700
street kind of incognito and
said, God bless you Brother

1966
02:00:45,700 --> 02:00:47,200
Joseph.
Keep up the good work.

1967
02:00:47,400 --> 02:00:49,200
Yep.
Yep.

1968
02:00:50,100 --> 02:00:55,200
It's so interesting to read
about that time frame because on

1969
02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:58,300
one hand it's discouraging
because you you really start to

1970
02:00:58,300 --> 02:01:02,500
see the the church kind of begin
to get rid of that.

1971
02:01:02,500 --> 02:01:08,100
On the other hand, You can see
certain men who are still like,

1972
02:01:08,100 --> 02:01:10,900
oh no, this has to keep going
somehow, right?

1973
02:01:10,900 --> 02:01:14,600
And so, I think it's both a time
of both heroes and villains so

1974
02:01:14,600 --> 02:01:17,800
to speak, or and it's
interesting how close.

1975
02:01:17,800 --> 02:01:20,500
They both have to work together
in.

1976
02:01:20,500 --> 02:01:24,800
Do do that, I think, makes me
wonder how money at the time.

1977
02:01:25,700 --> 02:01:29,300
How dissociated some of the
Brethren were on those points?

1978
02:01:29,300 --> 02:01:35,400
Because the historical record
shows that 13 Functioning

1979
02:01:35,400 --> 02:01:40,400
Apostles of the Quorum of The
Twelve Apostles from 1890 to

1980
02:01:40,400 --> 02:01:43,200
1904.
When you factor in all the

1981
02:01:43,200 --> 02:01:45,500
people that rotated to the
Quorum of The Twelve, which I

1982
02:01:45,500 --> 02:01:48,900
don't remember the exact number
but it's, you know, by 13,

1983
02:01:48,900 --> 02:01:51,400
that's more than a full Quorum
of The Twelve Apostles.

1984
02:01:52,000 --> 02:01:54,200
Oh, you know, and some, you
know, someone died and passed

1985
02:01:54,200 --> 02:01:57,200
out, you know, through the form
and the more vacancies are

1986
02:01:57,200 --> 02:02:02,100
appointed their filled but 13,
contracted or associated with

1987
02:02:02,100 --> 02:02:08,500
plural, marriages between 1890
and 1900 for teen Apostles.

1988
02:02:09,200 --> 02:02:10,400
And I don't know what they all
knew.

1989
02:02:10,400 --> 02:02:14,100
At the time, they were probably,
if you look in this is Cal

1990
02:02:14,600 --> 02:02:17,900
Fellowship trial.
He says, I was told not to

1991
02:02:18,100 --> 02:02:23,000
counsel with my brother, but if
they had the kingdom of God,

1992
02:02:23,000 --> 02:02:25,100
might have been in the very
different circumstance

1993
02:02:26,400 --> 02:02:29,500
potentially, or maybe there was
wisdom in it.

1994
02:02:29,500 --> 02:02:32,000
Because maybe one of the members
would have turned into a Judas

1995
02:02:32,000 --> 02:02:33,600
who betrayed all the rest of
them, I don't know.

1996
02:02:34,400 --> 02:02:36,900
There is something to be said
for plausible, deniability

1997
02:02:36,900 --> 02:02:38,300
right?
I mean right.

1998
02:02:38,400 --> 02:02:42,500
But I look at that and I see the
majority of you were act even

1999
02:02:42,500 --> 02:02:46,500
though you were United by
talking and planning in spirit,

2000
02:02:46,500 --> 02:02:51,400
you were continuing the work in
perpetuating it which begs the

2001
02:02:51,400 --> 02:02:53,700
question, right?
And this is something I've been

2002
02:02:53,700 --> 02:03:00,300
big on as of late is Maybe if
they were more vocal with each

2003
02:03:00,300 --> 02:03:03,900
other maybe this wouldn't have
gone the direction it went,

2004
02:03:04,200 --> 02:03:05,300
right?
That's all.

2005
02:03:05,300 --> 02:03:08,900
I wonder maybe if someone would
have stood up and said wait,

2006
02:03:09,200 --> 02:03:11,600
hold on.
Let's stop this silly game.

2007
02:03:11,600 --> 02:03:16,400
We're all doing this right and
the teachers not that's on you,

2008
02:03:16,500 --> 02:03:18,500
right?
And then that's exactly what I

2009
02:03:18,508 --> 02:03:20,800
would have said it.
If you're not gonna go for him

2010
02:03:20,800 --> 02:03:23,400
to this is on you, right?
Right.

2011
02:03:23,400 --> 02:03:27,900
And but I've had the same
questions with Alice as a whole

2012
02:03:27,900 --> 02:03:31,900
as of late, right with.
And I've said it before is, we

2013
02:03:31,900 --> 02:03:35,400
need to get up and get more
vocal because right now there's

2014
02:03:35,400 --> 02:03:38,400
almost a fundamentalist moment
that's happening with under the

2015
02:03:38,400 --> 02:03:43,300
banner of Heaven and the Netflix
special on on the flds.

2016
02:03:43,300 --> 02:03:46,600
We're at a time now where we had
better start talking.

2017
02:03:46,800 --> 02:03:50,400
We it's time to step out of the
Shadows, right?

2018
02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:53,800
There's a there's a lot of
people who point out for example

2019
02:03:53,800 --> 02:03:57,800
that Joseph Mauser never pointed
out the Never Gave the second

2020
02:03:57,800 --> 02:04:03,600
anointings to the new Council.
And we can see the reticence to

2021
02:04:03,608 --> 02:04:05,800
talk about these things in
fundamentalism.

2022
02:04:05,800 --> 02:04:08,400
As you're pointing out that we
are almost shooting ourselves in

2023
02:04:08,400 --> 02:04:13,900
the foot committing committing
suicide for the kingdom of God

2024
02:04:13,900 --> 02:04:16,400
by not talking about certain
things.

2025
02:04:16,600 --> 02:04:19,200
And because of the ATVs
reticence to admit that those

2026
02:04:19,200 --> 02:04:24,700
ordinances were perpetuated.
There's a there's a doubt cast

2027
02:04:24,700 --> 02:04:27,700
upon that's Chopped there that
their own claim to do Temple

2028
02:04:27,700 --> 02:04:30,900
ordinances in the foot, by some
people who Go into the

2029
02:04:30,900 --> 02:04:33,000
literalism of Lauren woolies
Tang.

2030
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:36,000
Don't collect tithing, don't
baptized don't do this.

2031
02:04:36,500 --> 02:04:38,700
Your commission is to perpetuate
a plural marriage, no matter

2032
02:04:38,700 --> 02:04:40,500
what.
Now, the Allred group is doing a

2033
02:04:40,508 --> 02:04:45,300
temple ordinances that goes
beyond your commission, but

2034
02:04:45,300 --> 02:04:47,400
Joseph muster.
If you believe that he passed on

2035
02:04:47,400 --> 02:04:51,000
those ordinances, they have the
fullness of the priesthood and I

2036
02:04:51,000 --> 02:04:53,500
think inherently by that a
commission to build up the

2037
02:04:53,500 --> 02:04:58,100
kingdom of God, no matter what.
But the reticence on that has

2038
02:04:58,100 --> 02:05:01,100
shot themselves in the foot for
the Air movement although

2039
02:05:01,100 --> 02:05:02,900
they're big enough.
They're big enough group that

2040
02:05:02,900 --> 02:05:06,600
they don't really need any help
to gather convert sir

2041
02:05:06,600 --> 02:05:12,500
proselytes.
But I think that that this this

2042
02:05:12,500 --> 02:05:17,200
idea of reticence I'm not saying
go and cast holy things before

2043
02:05:17,200 --> 02:05:22,200
dogs or supplying whatsoever but
we need to be up front with

2044
02:05:22,200 --> 02:05:27,200
certain things and and disowned
wickedness publicly and say that

2045
02:05:27,200 --> 02:05:30,300
you know those fundamentalist we
are not what happened.

2046
02:05:30,500 --> 02:05:33,200
Collectively we are not what
happened in short Creek in the

2047
02:05:33,200 --> 02:05:37,300
90s and early 2000s under rule
and Warren Jeffs.

2048
02:05:37,300 --> 02:05:40,500
That's not us.
Absolutely, the other thing I'll

2049
02:05:40,500 --> 02:05:45,300
say is that it's interesting to
look at where the LDS Church's

2050
02:05:45,300 --> 02:05:48,200
now, right?
Because just this past general

2051
02:05:48,200 --> 02:05:53,000
conference, you had to get they
had to have an apostle stand up

2052
02:05:53,000 --> 02:05:56,300
and say enough talk about
heavenly mother we just don't

2053
02:05:56,300 --> 02:05:59,000
know enough they go.
Oh yeah.

2054
02:05:59,100 --> 02:06:02,200
Oh yeah because there's a A
hunger for it, right?

2055
02:06:02,200 --> 02:06:05,700
And so I'm like, no, no.
We know you just don't like what

2056
02:06:05,700 --> 02:06:07,900
it comes with it.
It just Adam God, and plural,

2057
02:06:07,900 --> 02:06:10,600
marriage.
But we know about heavenly

2058
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:13,600
mother and we could less sweet
than that under the rug.

2059
02:06:13,900 --> 02:06:17,800
We can talk about this openly
and and again, I find it most

2060
02:06:17,800 --> 02:06:20,300
funny that we're in this
fundamentalist moment.

2061
02:06:20,400 --> 02:06:24,800
I really believe that that, that
we can and we can tell our own

2062
02:06:24,800 --> 02:06:30,100
story, we can own it now, right?
And we can also answer

2063
02:06:30,100 --> 02:06:32,500
questions.
Students on the other side for

2064
02:06:32,500 --> 02:06:34,800
some of the folks in the LDS
church whether they decide to

2065
02:06:34,808 --> 02:06:38,900
stay in the LDS church or come
out, I would rather than I would

2066
02:06:38,900 --> 02:06:42,800
rather see them practice some
form of Mormonism rather than

2067
02:06:42,800 --> 02:06:44,700
just throw the whole baby out
with the bathwater.

2068
02:06:45,100 --> 02:06:48,600
Dude, the way I see the church
and I'm grateful for the church

2069
02:06:48,600 --> 02:06:51,800
because it was my upbringing.
I was raised of goodly parents,

2070
02:06:51,800 --> 02:06:55,000
traditional parents enough to
fundamentalism resonated with me

2071
02:06:55,800 --> 02:06:59,300
and truthfully, the only thing
holding my parents back from

2072
02:06:59,300 --> 02:07:02,000
being with me.
And my extended family that are

2073
02:07:02,000 --> 02:07:05,200
faithful, is the one man
doctrine that you follow the

2074
02:07:05,200 --> 02:07:07,100
president of the church, no
matter what?

2075
02:07:07,100 --> 02:07:11,500
Because on principles, they have
acknowledged generally that they

2076
02:07:11,500 --> 02:07:15,700
have that they believe the same
as I do, but it's this idea of

2077
02:07:15,700 --> 02:07:19,300
Follow The Prophet, follow the
president of the church, he

2078
02:07:19,300 --> 02:07:24,000
cannot Lead You astray, which is
that's attached, man, that's the

2079
02:07:24,000 --> 02:07:25,700
test for sure.
That's the test that the Lord is

2080
02:07:25,700 --> 02:07:30,000
giving to us, to see if we will
be led by the spirit or not.

2081
02:07:30,400 --> 02:07:37,000
You know, and even if you go
into Ezekiel, I think is equal

2082
02:07:37,000 --> 02:07:42,400
14 or 13 in the Old Testament.
The Lord says, if the prophet

2083
02:07:42,400 --> 02:07:46,400
deceive you, you know, you know
that I have and I have deceived

2084
02:07:46,400 --> 02:07:50,200
that Prophet, you know, to give
you a strong strong delusion.

2085
02:07:50,200 --> 02:07:51,300
Right.
Right.

2086
02:07:51,300 --> 02:07:53,700
You know that's a that's a tough
pill to swallow you know?

2087
02:07:53,700 --> 02:07:58,200
And and but on the other hand
Josette, I think the Joseph

2088
02:07:58,200 --> 02:08:02,200
Smith translation of that says
that the I have not deceived

2089
02:08:02,200 --> 02:08:05,600
that profit but insinuate still
that the prophet can deceive

2090
02:08:05,600 --> 02:08:07,800
himself.
Absolutely, yeah.

2091
02:08:08,000 --> 02:08:10,800
Yeah, look.
And that's the other thing,

2092
02:08:10,800 --> 02:08:14,300
right?
We, I think it's human nature

2093
02:08:14,300 --> 02:08:21,800
that we want.
To be able to, to, to just trust

2094
02:08:21,800 --> 02:08:24,700
leaders, right?
We see it in the government all

2095
02:08:24,700 --> 02:08:27,100
the time, right?
That's how the country got to

2096
02:08:27,108 --> 02:08:29,900
where it is, right.
We just assumed that these

2097
02:08:29,900 --> 02:08:32,900
people even though we elected
them, we're going to do the will

2098
02:08:32,900 --> 02:08:36,300
of their constituency.
That's not true, right?

2099
02:08:36,400 --> 02:08:42,200
And likewise I think just
because somebody gets put into a

2100
02:08:42,200 --> 02:08:45,400
position of Authority or
leadership.

2101
02:08:45,500 --> 02:08:49,800
You can't just make the
assumption that they're going to

2102
02:08:49,800 --> 02:08:52,500
do, right?
You have to be vigilant, you

2103
02:08:52,500 --> 02:08:57,500
have to watch and you have to
exercise your own agency.

2104
02:08:58,900 --> 02:09:01,700
To make sure that you're always
where you're supposed where

2105
02:09:01,700 --> 02:09:04,700
you're standing over.
God wants you to stand, you have

2106
02:09:04,700 --> 02:09:06,500
to hold people accountable.
In fact, I'll give you a

2107
02:09:06,508 --> 02:09:10,700
citation in Abraham Owen would
just journal in 1900.

2108
02:09:11,100 --> 02:09:13,500
They're disgusting this time
period, that we've talked so

2109
02:09:13,500 --> 02:09:16,600
much about where certain
apostles were going off on their

2110
02:09:16,600 --> 02:09:18,200
own thing.
And they are preparing their

2111
02:09:18,200 --> 02:09:21,300
helping people keep their
covenants because I believe that

2112
02:09:21,300 --> 02:09:24,900
when you enter it when you're
sealed in the temple with a with

2113
02:09:24,900 --> 02:09:27,900
a sealing ceremony that we
presently, have you met?

2114
02:09:28,100 --> 02:09:32,500
An oath and in Covenant to that,
you will enter into an abide all

2115
02:09:32,700 --> 02:09:36,000
the laws, rising and privileges
pertaining to this.

2116
02:09:36,000 --> 02:09:41,200
Holy order of matrimony, which
you only enter into impart in

2117
02:09:41,200 --> 02:09:43,200
part and not as fullness at that
moment.

2118
02:09:43,200 --> 02:09:46,900
And the one of the conditions
and laws, what does DNC 132 says

2119
02:09:46,900 --> 02:09:49,600
it is the law.
You know, if you want to

2120
02:09:49,600 --> 02:09:53,700
fullness of your exaltation it
is the law and if he's not.

2121
02:09:54,100 --> 02:09:57,300
But I'm grateful for the people
that have come before me to

2122
02:09:57,300 --> 02:10:00,400
point this out.
As if you do not obey that you

2123
02:10:00,400 --> 02:10:02,300
are by default a covenant
breaker.

2124
02:10:02,500 --> 02:10:06,800
Yep.
In case I'm Max of 2001

2125
02:10:07,200 --> 02:10:11,100
woodruff's Journal.
He's I love, I love Owen.

2126
02:10:11,100 --> 02:10:14,200
Woodruff is such a shame that he
died as early as he did.

2127
02:10:14,200 --> 02:10:16,900
He was in his early cities,
like, 31 years old and died in

2128
02:10:16,900 --> 02:10:19,700
1904 right after the second
Manifesto.

2129
02:10:20,200 --> 02:10:25,200
But he's a junior member of the
form of the 12th and he's got

2130
02:10:25,200 --> 02:10:28,900
one wife, he hasn't taken a
second wife, yet what he did,

2131
02:10:30,100 --> 02:10:33,900
and they're discussing all this
stuff and Lorenzo Snow.

2132
02:10:34,100 --> 02:10:38,200
Says, no man has a right to
officiate in plural marriage

2133
02:10:38,200 --> 02:10:42,300
without my permission in this
church right now and and some

2134
02:10:42,300 --> 02:10:45,600
other things happen and he
writes in his journal of how he

2135
02:10:45,600 --> 02:10:49,300
felt to sustain that because of
everyone else in the Quorum

2136
02:10:49,300 --> 02:10:52,400
sustaining it and he felt
pressured that he had to just

2137
02:10:52,400 --> 02:10:54,400
raise his hand and sustain it
and vote.

2138
02:10:55,300 --> 02:10:58,600
And it's like brother you should
have had more courage to speak.

2139
02:10:59,400 --> 02:11:03,200
In fact, being a junior member
you almost have more leeway to

2140
02:11:03,200 --> 02:11:07,300
disagree and say things than
someone who's been in it longer,

2141
02:11:07,600 --> 02:11:10,800
but he continues in his journal.
He says, I know that this is not

2142
02:11:11,200 --> 02:11:14,900
the actual opinion held by some
for, I know that Matthias Cali,

2143
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:18,400
George Teasdale and John W,
Taylor hold the same opinion

2144
02:11:18,400 --> 02:11:24,900
that I did.
Yeah, and run your class and was

2145
02:11:24,900 --> 02:11:26,300
another one.
He's not my favorite.

2146
02:11:26,300 --> 02:11:29,900
See, after the second Manifesto
of came, he, he wasn't said,

2147
02:11:29,900 --> 02:11:32,600
we've had, we've had Manifest
this enough.

2148
02:11:34,600 --> 02:11:38,700
And here he had a messiah
scowly, marry a plural wife to

2149
02:11:38,700 --> 02:11:42,800
him after the second Manifesto
and after the second Manifesto,

2150
02:11:43,000 --> 02:11:47,500
Abraham, oh, and Woodruff went
and proposed to one of Senator

2151
02:11:47,500 --> 02:11:50,900
Reid smooth cousins.
To try to get it to be stirred,

2152
02:11:50,900 --> 02:11:54,400
what?
Yeah, yeah, so that's so poetic

2153
02:11:54,800 --> 02:11:57,100
it is.
That's, that's so poetic and he

2154
02:11:57,100 --> 02:11:58,800
died shortly wasn't able to do
that.

2155
02:11:58,900 --> 02:12:02,200
But but to me, it shows, you
know, when I look at that

2156
02:12:02,200 --> 02:12:06,300
journals that heat, he had an
opportunity there to keep his

2157
02:12:06,300 --> 02:12:10,300
leaders accountable to to, from
the bottom down work, with his

2158
02:12:10,300 --> 02:12:15,100
priesthood leaders, and counsel
at them and say, look, there's

2159
02:12:15,100 --> 02:12:17,700
something off here.
We, you know, we have the right

2160
02:12:17,700 --> 02:12:19,400
to be able to do this the
course.

2161
02:12:19,500 --> 02:12:22,300
To be corrected.
You know, we're not, we're not

2162
02:12:22,300 --> 02:12:24,600
coming into contact with you
president's know that you're

2163
02:12:24,600 --> 02:12:27,200
presiding.
We're not, we're not trying to

2164
02:12:27,200 --> 02:12:30,400
overrule you, but let's Council,
you know?

2165
02:12:30,400 --> 02:12:34,100
And that's, that's something
that we're missing, I think

2166
02:12:34,100 --> 02:12:38,600
you're right it and, and There
is nothing wrong with healthy

2167
02:12:38,600 --> 02:12:46,100
debate, right in, and I think
too often people cling onto that

2168
02:12:46,100 --> 02:12:49,700
scripture about contention
cometh of the devil, right?

2169
02:12:50,900 --> 02:12:54,200
There's a difference between
debate and contention and

2170
02:12:54,200 --> 02:12:56,500
there's a difference between
contention and the spirit of

2171
02:12:56,500 --> 02:12:59,100
contention in the scripture
actually says the spirit of

2172
02:12:59,100 --> 02:13:01,300
contention is of the devil,
right?

2173
02:13:01,600 --> 02:13:05,600
Right.
Contention can be healthy right?

2174
02:13:05,600 --> 02:13:10,300
I mean I have a lot of good
friends who we don't see

2175
02:13:10,300 --> 02:13:13,900
eye-to-eye on anything
politically nothing.

2176
02:13:14,300 --> 02:13:19,800
And we will go to the mat in
arguments and then at the end

2177
02:13:19,800 --> 02:13:21,800
hug it out.
Right?

2178
02:13:22,200 --> 02:13:25,700
And I think that, is that
healthy contention, right?

2179
02:13:25,700 --> 02:13:29,100
That's that healthy debate, that
has to be had.

2180
02:13:29,400 --> 02:13:35,100
And if a man is secure in his
standing before the Lord and in

2181
02:13:35,100 --> 02:13:41,700
his calling he will, he will
abide in that, just fine, right

2182
02:13:41,700 --> 02:13:43,800
in.
And he'll be willing to to

2183
02:13:43,800 --> 02:13:47,600
discuss with you and try to get
you to see his point of view.

2184
02:13:47,900 --> 02:13:52,600
And if everyone comes at it from
a Point of love and concern.

2185
02:13:53,400 --> 02:13:56,200
It's a beautiful thing because a
lot of things get worked out in

2186
02:13:56,200 --> 02:14:00,400
those moments.
I had a, I had a dear friend so

2187
02:14:00,400 --> 02:14:02,700
I doubt we'll ever listen to
this but I hope he does one day.

2188
02:14:03,200 --> 02:14:07,000
Tell me we were on our mission
for the church.

2189
02:14:07,100 --> 02:14:10,500
You know we struggled sometimes
depending on who our

2190
02:14:10,800 --> 02:14:14,500
investigators were with being
able to be bold Rob.

2191
02:14:15,400 --> 02:14:20,800
And but he turned to me 11
district meeting and we were a

2192
02:14:20,808 --> 02:14:23,100
bunch of us are staying in one
apartment and we're just having

2193
02:14:23,100 --> 02:14:28,000
a conversation and he said
elderness you can be as bold as

2194
02:14:28,000 --> 02:14:31,700
you want with your investigators
as long as you match that

2195
02:14:31,700 --> 02:14:35,100
boldness with love and do.
That was a key.

2196
02:14:35,400 --> 02:14:39,100
That was a key that you can be
as bold with your Priestly as

2197
02:14:39,100 --> 02:14:40,500
any.
Yeah, I'd say the same thing

2198
02:14:40,500 --> 02:14:43,100
with priests leaders or whoever
you can be as bold as you want

2199
02:14:43,100 --> 02:14:46,200
as long as you can match that
boldness with with an intensity

2200
02:14:46,200 --> 02:14:48,100
with love.
And I've seen it, I've

2201
02:14:48,100 --> 02:14:50,700
absolutely seen it.
I got out of one.

2202
02:14:50,900 --> 02:14:55,200
One way I was on splits and I
was bald dude, I said the church

2203
02:14:55,300 --> 02:14:57,400
and the doctrine of the church.
And of the Gospel does not

2204
02:14:57,400 --> 02:15:01,300
uphold this position and
speaking about homosexual

2205
02:15:01,300 --> 02:15:05,400
marriages and just use kind of
sympathetic to it and we pretty

2206
02:15:05,400 --> 02:15:08,000
much walked out of there and I
was like Junior companion to

2207
02:15:08,600 --> 02:15:14,000
yeah well I was and I was with
my district leader and we got

2208
02:15:14,000 --> 02:15:15,800
out of there.
He's like dude you just lost us

2209
02:15:15,800 --> 02:15:18,800
that investigator for being as
harsh as you were you know,

2210
02:15:18,800 --> 02:15:22,100
being as bold as you were, you
know, and Later that week she

2211
02:15:22,100 --> 02:15:25,400
asked for baptism.
She was baptized nice.

2212
02:15:25,400 --> 02:15:26,800
Yeah.
So from what, from one

2213
02:15:26,800 --> 02:15:31,100
perspective, it looks like I was
being harsh, it looked like I

2214
02:15:31,100 --> 02:15:35,900
was being way too bold for my
own shoes, but something

2215
02:15:35,900 --> 02:15:39,200
happened where she was on the
fence on something and actually

2216
02:15:39,200 --> 02:15:42,700
taking the harder stance and
standing up for a principal

2217
02:15:42,900 --> 02:15:45,300
resonated with her, and I'm not
taking credit for that.

2218
02:15:45,300 --> 02:15:46,900
I, that was completely the
spirit.

2219
02:15:47,000 --> 02:15:52,100
And I think the lord gave me
that To always remember that,

2220
02:15:52,300 --> 02:15:53,100
right?
Yeah.

2221
02:15:54,800 --> 02:15:59,000
Absolutely.
All right, so let's talk about

2222
02:15:59,000 --> 02:16:01,900
the legal Administration in the
kingdom of God, unless there was

2223
02:16:01,900 --> 02:16:03,200
something else he wanted to go
over.

2224
02:16:04,600 --> 02:16:05,800
No, but I think that's just
fine.

2225
02:16:06,400 --> 02:16:08,800
All right, geez, we still got a
minute.

2226
02:16:10,200 --> 02:16:12,200
Did they just say okay, let's
go, let's hit it.

2227
02:16:13,500 --> 02:16:17,400
All right, go ahead man.
Joseph.

2228
02:16:17,500 --> 02:16:24,100
Joseph Smith in the teachings.
Page 2274 said, whenever man can

2229
02:16:24,100 --> 02:16:28,500
find out the will of God and
find a find an Trader, legally

2230
02:16:28,500 --> 02:16:31,800
authorized from God.
There is the kingdom of God, but

2231
02:16:31,800 --> 02:16:35,000
where these are not the kingdom
of God, is not all the

2232
02:16:35,000 --> 02:16:38,400
ordinances systems and
administration's on the Earth

2233
02:16:38,400 --> 02:16:41,600
are of no use to the children of
men, unless they are ordained.

2234
02:16:41,600 --> 02:16:44,500
An authorized of God for.
Nothing will save a man, but a

2235
02:16:44,508 --> 02:16:47,900
legal administrator for none.
Others will be acknowledged

2236
02:16:47,900 --> 02:16:54,200
either by God, or By Angels,
Well, it's a shot in the head to

2237
02:16:54,200 --> 02:17:00,799
any claim.
Tend to have your own priesthood

2238
02:17:00,799 --> 02:17:03,500
without being able to trace it.
I think that you have to have a

2239
02:17:03,508 --> 02:17:08,200
legit claim to Authority and to
touch on that.

2240
02:17:08,200 --> 02:17:10,200
There's a lot of people who
consider themselves,

2241
02:17:10,200 --> 02:17:16,000
fundamentalists who get Visions
or dreams or alleged Angelic,

2242
02:17:16,000 --> 02:17:20,600
Restorations of keys, you know?
And to me that's a red herring.

2243
02:17:20,600 --> 02:17:24,500
It does or as a red flag and it
is not stack up with it against

2244
02:17:24,500 --> 02:17:28,700
my own litmus test against
knowing where to find Authority.

2245
02:17:29,900 --> 02:17:33,100
Because anyone can do that and
it's not, you know, but when I

2246
02:17:33,100 --> 02:17:35,799
look at this statement of that,
you need to find an

2247
02:17:35,799 --> 02:17:39,299
administrator who legally,
authorized from God, although I

2248
02:17:39,307 --> 02:17:45,299
will also say in those in the
early 20th century debates.

2249
02:17:45,400 --> 02:17:48,600
You know, about what to do with
plural marriage.

2250
02:17:48,799 --> 02:17:51,900
There were discussions between
George Q Cannon, and Lorenzo

2251
02:17:51,900 --> 02:17:54,600
Snow and others about what they
called.

2252
02:17:54,600 --> 02:17:58,700
Concubine image of basically
that you could common law.

2253
02:17:58,799 --> 02:18:02,299
Under a solemn oath and
Covenant, take a plural, wife,

2254
02:18:03,000 --> 02:18:06,600
until the priest could officiate
and seal it and you'd be

2255
02:18:06,600 --> 02:18:11,700
justified because you'd be
fulfilling your commandment to

2256
02:18:11,700 --> 02:18:13,700
multiplying your foot and
replenish the Earth, and fill it

2257
02:18:13,700 --> 02:18:16,400
with righteous seed.
But the idea was that it would

2258
02:18:16,400 --> 02:18:21,000
ultimately be you have sealed
but that you would be justified.

2259
02:18:21,000 --> 02:18:22,799
And so there's there's some
wiggle room there.

2260
02:18:23,100 --> 02:18:28,000
I think on certain principles,
But ultimately you need the

2261
02:18:28,000 --> 02:18:31,600
priest abuse.
The authority to seal a marriage

2262
02:18:31,600 --> 02:18:38,400
if you want any promise.
Looks like 132 points that out

2263
02:18:38,400 --> 02:18:41,700
really fresh really clearly,
right?

2264
02:18:41,700 --> 02:18:47,100
I mean that, that isn't a new
that isn't a shock to anybody.

2265
02:18:47,100 --> 02:18:49,200
That's Mormon in any sense of
the word.

2266
02:18:49,200 --> 02:18:53,299
I mean, you read 132 and it's
very clear in that, right?

2267
02:18:53,500 --> 02:18:57,900
It says that, you know, if these
things are not done, not only

2268
02:18:57,900 --> 02:19:01,700
with priesthood Authority, but
also sealed up by the Holy

2269
02:19:01,700 --> 02:19:04,200
Spirit of promise, it doesn't
really matter.

2270
02:19:06,299 --> 02:19:14,500
You're absolutely right.
So let's reading from I want to

2271
02:19:14,500 --> 02:19:25,500
skip some or let's go to Let's
go to the fruits of the kingdom

2272
02:19:25,500 --> 02:19:27,500
of God, which is to take my
nose.

2273
02:19:27,500 --> 02:19:30,299
It's phrased.
It's an, it's on page, 273 the

2274
02:19:30,299 --> 02:19:34,200
page before, what I just read in
the teachings and it's Joseph,

2275
02:19:34,200 --> 02:19:37,799
says, there is a difference
between the kingdom of God and

2276
02:19:37,799 --> 02:19:40,500
the fruits and blessings that
flow from the kingdom.

2277
02:19:41,400 --> 02:19:44,700
Because there were more
miracles, gifts Visions healings

2278
02:19:44,700 --> 02:19:48,000
tongues Etc, in the days of
Jesus Christ and his Apostles

2279
02:19:48,200 --> 02:19:51,500
and on the day of Pentecost and
under John, the Baptist's Asian,

2280
02:19:51,700 --> 02:19:55,700
it does not prove by any means
that John had not the kingdom of

2281
02:19:55,700 --> 02:19:59,100
God anymore than it.
Would that a woman had not a

2282
02:19:59,108 --> 02:20:02,600
milk pan because she had not a
pan of milk or containing milk

2283
02:20:03,000 --> 02:20:04,900
and that.
While the pan might be something

2284
02:20:05,300 --> 02:20:07,900
compared to the kingdom.
The milk might be compared to

2285
02:20:07,900 --> 02:20:12,700
the blessings of the kingdom.
And so going back to 274, he

2286
02:20:12,700 --> 02:20:16,500
says, wherever there's a legal
administrator there is the

2287
02:20:16,500 --> 02:20:21,200
kingdom of God, even if there
are no visions and gift, Of

2288
02:20:21,200 --> 02:20:23,700
tongues or whatever.
If the authority of the

2289
02:20:23,708 --> 02:20:26,800
priesthood is there, there is
the kingdom of God, and the

2290
02:20:26,800 --> 02:20:30,600
ability to build up the kingdom
of God to enter into Oakton,

2291
02:20:30,600 --> 02:20:37,800
Covenant, and assure your
salvation, essentially DUI, I'm

2292
02:20:37,800 --> 02:20:40,500
glad you hit on this because I
think this is one of those

2293
02:20:40,500 --> 02:20:47,100
things that really needs to be
parsed out here, especially when

2294
02:20:47,100 --> 02:20:50,400
you're talking about keys and,
and priesthood.

2295
02:20:50,400 --> 02:20:53,800
Yes.
Yes, you cuz look we can

2296
02:20:53,800 --> 02:20:57,500
ordained guys all day long, all
day long.

2297
02:20:58,100 --> 02:21:02,500
I could ordained my son's to
whatever office all they want,

2298
02:21:03,200 --> 02:21:10,200
but but if I don't teach them
how to access the power of that

2299
02:21:10,200 --> 02:21:15,000
priesthood and how to stand in
power of those priests and how

2300
02:21:15,000 --> 02:21:19,400
to use those keys, it's worth
it.

2301
02:21:20,600 --> 02:21:24,500
It It sells you short, right?
It's like being given a key to

2302
02:21:24,500 --> 02:21:29,300
the car but yet not knowing how
to insert the key and turn the

2303
02:21:29,300 --> 02:21:32,800
engine on, right?
And right.

2304
02:21:33,700 --> 02:21:38,100
And if you're going to have the
kingdom, let's have all the

2305
02:21:38,100 --> 02:21:42,700
rights and blessings that that
are ours by being citizens

2306
02:21:42,700 --> 02:21:46,300
within that Kingdom, right?
Yes.

2307
02:21:46,300 --> 02:21:50,300
Absolutely.
I love men like John W Taylor

2308
02:21:50,300 --> 02:21:53,500
for And she waiting that because
John Taylor said, if we don't

2309
02:21:53,500 --> 02:21:57,000
embrace the principles here, the
keys will be turned against us

2310
02:21:57,000 --> 02:21:59,500
or you're turning that engine
off, right?

2311
02:21:59,500 --> 02:22:02,000
The car will work no more, you
know it.

2312
02:22:02,400 --> 02:22:04,800
But instead those people
recognize that we have covenants

2313
02:22:04,800 --> 02:22:07,900
to uphold for ourselves and help
other people live their

2314
02:22:07,900 --> 02:22:09,600
covenants.
And I believe that the power in

2315
02:22:09,600 --> 02:22:12,400
the priesthood comes from
keeping your covenants and

2316
02:22:12,400 --> 02:22:14,400
helping others make and keep
their covenants.

2317
02:22:14,900 --> 02:22:18,500
And that's when you'll start to
see, These beautiful blessings,

2318
02:22:18,500 --> 02:22:21,400
the milk and the milk.
Then as Joseph says, you know,

2319
02:22:21,400 --> 02:22:24,400
you'll get the power in the
priesthood when you keep and

2320
02:22:24,400 --> 02:22:25,900
help others keep their
covenants.

2321
02:22:26,600 --> 02:22:32,400
Yeah, exactly.
And and so I get that, you can

2322
02:22:32,400 --> 02:22:36,300
have the structure there and
that structure can be can be

2323
02:22:36,300 --> 02:22:40,100
valid but you're selling
yourself short.

2324
02:22:40,600 --> 02:22:46,100
Right?
Sure and It's one of the things

2325
02:22:46,100 --> 02:22:52,300
that I think Russell M Nelson
got right when he was president

2326
02:22:52,300 --> 02:22:55,100
of the Quorum of The Twelve
Apostles, acting president.

2327
02:22:56,000 --> 02:22:58,800
He said something that that
really resonated with me.

2328
02:22:58,800 --> 02:23:00,800
I was in a meeting.
It was a regional meeting here

2329
02:23:00,800 --> 02:23:03,600
in Utah.
And he said, brother and we've

2330
02:23:03,600 --> 02:23:05,900
been really good about passing
out the authority of the

2331
02:23:05,900 --> 02:23:07,700
priesthood.
But we've been done, a really

2332
02:23:07,800 --> 02:23:12,500
horrible job of teaching, people
how to stand in the power of the

2333
02:23:12,500 --> 02:23:17,400
priesthood.
So don't get me wrong, it's

2334
02:23:17,400 --> 02:23:19,900
better to quote, fake it till
you make it.

2335
02:23:20,200 --> 02:23:25,200
But there's no reason not to get
to the main point, which is

2336
02:23:25,400 --> 02:23:31,700
being able to stand in power of
the priesthood being able to to

2337
02:23:31,900 --> 02:23:38,300
to to feel that flow.
Big believer in perpetuating,

2338
02:23:38,300 --> 02:23:41,000
the keys so of their own, the
Earth, you know?

2339
02:23:41,200 --> 02:23:44,400
Because the Lord tells us what
happens if they're not on the

2340
02:23:44,400 --> 02:23:48,300
earth, he says the Earth will be
utterly wasted at my coming, you

2341
02:23:48,300 --> 02:23:51,100
know, and I believe in that, I
don't believe that the Lord is a

2342
02:23:51,108 --> 02:23:54,800
liar and so to perpetuate the
priests and to make sure that

2343
02:23:54,800 --> 02:23:58,800
the ability to legally officiate
in the kingdom of God, is on the

2344
02:23:58,800 --> 02:24:04,600
earth when he comes is, is
Paramount because he said, I'm

2345
02:24:04,600 --> 02:24:07,200
not going to restore the priests
it again, right?

2346
02:24:07,200 --> 02:24:10,200
So if it's not here and if it's
not found, the Earth is utterly

2347
02:24:10,200 --> 02:24:15,400
wasted at my coming.
You know, anyway.

2348
02:24:16,800 --> 02:24:21,300
He's not a liar.
No, that's why God can't lie or

2349
02:24:21,300 --> 02:24:23,300
he had ceased to be God.
Yep.

2350
02:24:25,200 --> 02:24:31,300
Let's see if under the more
illegal Administration, Joseph

2351
02:24:32,300 --> 02:24:38,200
in page 337 of his teachings,
says, that the spirit Power and

2352
02:24:38,200 --> 02:24:41,400
calling of Elijah is that you
have power to hold the keys of

2353
02:24:41,400 --> 02:24:46,200
the revelations ordinances
oracle's powers and endowments

2354
02:24:46,200 --> 02:24:48,400
of the Fullness of the
Melchizedek priesthood.

2355
02:24:48,600 --> 02:24:53,400
So we start from as anointings
and of the kingdom of God on the

2356
02:24:53,400 --> 02:24:56,800
earth and to receive obtain, and
perform all the ordinances

2357
02:24:56,800 --> 02:25:00,400
pertaining to the kingdom of
God, even unto the Turning of

2358
02:25:00,400 --> 02:25:03,700
the hearts of the fathers unto
the children, and the hearts of

2359
02:25:03,700 --> 02:25:07,100
the children, unto the father's,
even those who are in heaven.

2360
02:25:07,400 --> 02:25:13,500
And I'll go even further into
say, this says that the keys of

2361
02:25:13,500 --> 02:25:19,400
Elijah, Authorize you to perform
all the ordinances.

2362
02:25:21,600 --> 02:25:25,600
Joseph Smith, and another
instance also said, how did

2363
02:25:25,600 --> 02:25:30,800
Jesus Christ get a fullness of
the priesthood by obeying all

2364
02:25:30,800 --> 02:25:33,900
and observing all the ordinances
of the house of the Lord?

2365
02:25:35,600 --> 02:25:38,900
So you take those two statements
together and you can see that's

2366
02:25:38,900 --> 02:25:41,400
what he's talking about there is
that to have a fullness the

2367
02:25:41,400 --> 02:25:44,500
priesthood you must have it have
it the same way Christ did.

2368
02:25:45,700 --> 02:25:48,700
And that's what Joseph was
looking to, man.

2369
02:25:48,700 --> 02:25:51,200
He wanted people to come into
that order and receive it.

2370
02:25:51,200 --> 02:25:54,000
That's my belief.
You know, he this is, this is

2371
02:25:54,000 --> 02:25:58,600
something that We need to, we
need to come together.

2372
02:25:58,600 --> 02:26:00,500
You know what good is having
going to be?

2373
02:26:00,500 --> 02:26:04,000
If it's only one one man they're
right.

2374
02:26:04,100 --> 02:26:10,800
I was the case, the priesthood,
you know I want well and and and

2375
02:26:10,800 --> 02:26:12,900
this I think goes back to
Joseph.

2376
02:26:15,700 --> 02:26:19,500
At least the sense I get from
Reading Joseph Smith, what he's

2377
02:26:19,500 --> 02:26:23,100
after, which is, I had my
experience with the Lord and I

2378
02:26:23,108 --> 02:26:25,400
continue to have my experiences
with the ward.

2379
02:26:26,200 --> 02:26:28,500
Now, let me show you how you can
go get yours.

2380
02:26:29,500 --> 02:26:32,100
Yes, yes, absolutely.
That's that's correct.

2381
02:26:32,700 --> 02:26:36,000
And that is I believe his whole
motivation.

2382
02:26:36,400 --> 02:26:39,600
Yep.
Yep, absolutely.

2383
02:26:40,800 --> 02:26:43,900
So let's talk about some of
those keys that are given to you

2384
02:26:43,900 --> 02:26:46,800
in your second when you receive
your second anointing.

2385
02:26:48,600 --> 02:26:53,300
Okay, sure, I think that's
that's super important.

2386
02:26:54,000 --> 02:27:00,800
What are some of those keys?
Based off of historical record

2387
02:27:00,800 --> 02:27:04,300
that I've seen.
When you are anointed a kingdom

2388
02:27:04,300 --> 02:27:05,600
of priests.
And there's a there's actually

2389
02:27:05,600 --> 02:27:10,200
several components to what is
called the second anointing and

2390
02:27:10,200 --> 02:27:13,500
the anointing to being a king
and a priest is actually part of

2391
02:27:13,800 --> 02:27:16,800
a larger endowment type.
You know, procession of

2392
02:27:16,800 --> 02:27:19,400
ordinances.
It's also sometimes called the

2393
02:27:19,400 --> 02:27:22,200
second endowment, you can go
into what Wilfred woodruff's

2394
02:27:22,200 --> 02:27:25,500
journal and occasionally he'll
call the second Endowment, for

2395
02:27:25,500 --> 02:27:32,200
example, but the blessings given
Typically when you're ordained a

2396
02:27:32,208 --> 02:27:37,800
king and a priest is the sealing
power to bind and to loose to

2397
02:27:37,800 --> 02:27:41,400
curse and to blast.
So that's arguing under the keys

2398
02:27:41,400 --> 02:27:45,300
of Elijah, the blessings of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, which

2399
02:27:45,300 --> 02:27:48,700
are that you have.
The promise that you're seeing

2400
02:27:48,900 --> 02:27:51,600
will be more numerous than the
stars in heaven.

2401
02:27:52,500 --> 02:27:55,300
Yeah, you'll have eternal lives
that your, that your children

2402
02:27:55,300 --> 02:27:58,600
will have the ability to receive
the Plan of Salvation and

2403
02:27:58,600 --> 02:28:02,000
continue your fault, you know?
Posterity will just continue to

2404
02:28:02,000 --> 02:28:05,900
continue to continue.
It says, the Holy Spirit of

2405
02:28:05,900 --> 02:28:10,600
Promise is bestowed and in that
context, that is that is the

2406
02:28:10,600 --> 02:28:12,200
second ceiling of your
marriages.

2407
02:28:12,400 --> 02:28:17,000
Hmm.
Where you have a promise on your

2408
02:28:17,000 --> 02:28:20,500
marriage covenants, at that
moment you are truly married in

2409
02:28:20,500 --> 02:28:26,000
the eyes of the Lord for time
and fraternity and you're pretty

2410
02:28:26,000 --> 02:28:27,300
rough to break out of that
point.

2411
02:28:27,300 --> 02:28:29,600
You had you have a claim you
have a.

2412
02:28:30,100 --> 02:28:32,400
There's An apostle from the
Allred group name.

2413
02:28:32,400 --> 02:28:40,900
Bill, Baird he he said once
Without the Holy Spirit of

2414
02:28:40,900 --> 02:28:45,200
promise, you don't have a
marriage without a woman's love.

2415
02:28:45,200 --> 02:28:49,000
You do not have a marriage
because it is through the woman,

2416
02:28:49,100 --> 02:28:52,800
anointing herself to her husband
and loving her with her.

2417
02:28:52,800 --> 02:28:56,800
Love that she makes a marriage
because a man can do whatever he

2418
02:28:56,900 --> 02:29:01,300
needs to do or want or can do to
lead and to teach if the woman

2419
02:29:01,300 --> 02:29:05,900
will not follow and say that you
were God will be my God, your

2420
02:29:05,900 --> 02:29:10,100
people, my people you know then
you I will not have a marriage

2421
02:29:10,100 --> 02:29:14,900
that will last into eternity,
but when she does, Fulfill that

2422
02:29:14,900 --> 02:29:18,000
ordinance on you.
You have the Holy Spirit of

2423
02:29:18,000 --> 02:29:21,500
promise, you have the promise of
that Covenant.

2424
02:29:21,600 --> 02:29:28,300
Now you have a blessing to live
as long as life is desirable and

2425
02:29:28,300 --> 02:29:31,500
so I believe when Brigham Young
anointed Heber C Kimball.

2426
02:29:32,200 --> 02:29:38,000
He said that you would live to
three score and 12 years or

2427
02:29:38,000 --> 02:29:41,700
something like that.
If you desire, you receive a

2428
02:29:41,700 --> 02:29:45,700
blessing to attain unto godhood.
You have the power to become a

2429
02:29:45,700 --> 02:29:50,000
member of the godhead in your
sealed up to eternal life and

2430
02:29:50,000 --> 02:29:52,100
have power to have the heavens
open.

2431
02:29:54,500 --> 02:30:01,200
Those are heavy heavy.
Responsibilities and blessings.

2432
02:30:01,900 --> 02:30:04,900
Absolutely.
One of the things that that I

2433
02:30:04,900 --> 02:30:10,200
think I want to mention here is
we should all strive for that.

2434
02:30:11,100 --> 02:30:14,100
But in that striving we better
make sure we're worthy.

2435
02:30:15,100 --> 02:30:18,100
We better.
Make sure that we've done done

2436
02:30:18,100 --> 02:30:22,400
the work right to put it into a
silly football analogy.

2437
02:30:22,600 --> 02:30:25,700
We have better, have hit the gym
and we have better have worked

2438
02:30:25,700 --> 02:30:29,100
the offseason program to get to
that point.

2439
02:30:32,300 --> 02:30:39,500
Because at that point, if you
stumble and fall, you could be

2440
02:30:39,500 --> 02:30:44,000
on your own a little bit. if
you, if you were to turn off, if

2441
02:30:44,000 --> 02:30:50,100
you were to turn away from that,
after receiving that that incurs

2442
02:30:50,100 --> 02:30:56,300
a heavy punishment. yeah,
there's a some people will say

2443
02:30:56,400 --> 02:31:02,800
the you can give the second
anointings or, you know, because

2444
02:31:03,900 --> 02:31:05,900
You're stealing a van, someone
their exaltation, and you

2445
02:31:05,900 --> 02:31:09,200
shouldn't do that lightly, and
essentially you are you are

2446
02:31:09,200 --> 02:31:12,300
passing, you are allowing the
angels in the Sentinels and the

2447
02:31:12,308 --> 02:31:15,400
gods to pass judgement day upon
that individual.

2448
02:31:16,200 --> 02:31:18,200
So they have their calling and
their election.

2449
02:31:19,900 --> 02:31:24,100
You know, and but I recall
statements from Heber C, Kimball

2450
02:31:24,100 --> 02:31:26,300
in the Journal of discourses
saying, something along the

2451
02:31:26,300 --> 02:31:29,100
lines of what you're hitting on
is.

2452
02:31:29,300 --> 02:31:33,900
It doesn't even matter if you,
if you receive your anointings

2453
02:31:33,900 --> 02:31:36,500
in your ordinances and you don't
live your religion, it's as good

2454
02:31:36,500 --> 02:31:39,500
as baptizing, a bag of Sam.
Yeah, yeah.

2455
02:31:40,100 --> 02:31:44,200
And I believe that in some ways
it might be, it might be worse

2456
02:31:44,200 --> 02:31:51,300
for you than that, because you
have made tremendous. promises

2457
02:31:51,600 --> 02:31:55,800
and you have not walked up to
those at all and in some ways

2458
02:31:55,800 --> 02:32:01,800
that might be the ultimate in
terms of mocking God, here I I

2459
02:32:01,800 --> 02:32:03,300
think you're absolutely right
with that.

2460
02:32:05,700 --> 02:32:08,500
So, and then there's one that
that I wanted to read right

2461
02:32:08,500 --> 02:32:12,800
after you have those listed that
I thought was a great quote, if

2462
02:32:12,800 --> 02:32:14,500
a man gets the fullness of the
priesthood.

2463
02:32:14,500 --> 02:32:18,900
And excuse me, if if a man gets
a fullness of the priesthood of

2464
02:32:18,900 --> 02:32:23,400
God, he has to get it the same
way that Jesus Christ, obtained,

2465
02:32:23,400 --> 02:32:25,400
it going back to what you said
before.

2466
02:32:25,700 --> 02:32:29,000
And then down there, although
David was a king, he never did

2467
02:32:29,000 --> 02:32:32,700
obtain the spirit and power of
Elijah and the fullness of the

2468
02:32:32,700 --> 02:32:36,300
priesthood.
Once again, showing there's

2469
02:32:36,300 --> 02:32:40,700
probably a difference between an
office, not probably, there's a

2470
02:32:40,708 --> 02:32:43,700
difference between an office in
the priesthood and the power of

2471
02:32:43,708 --> 02:32:46,100
the priesthood.
Right.

2472
02:32:46,900 --> 02:32:48,800
Yeah.
And and I yeah, he didn't

2473
02:32:48,800 --> 02:32:52,900
receive that ordinance, I
believe and that's why he for

2474
02:32:52,900 --> 02:32:56,400
the murder of Uriah.
He his soul will not be left in

2475
02:32:56,400 --> 02:33:00,400
hell because if you read
Doctrine and Covenants 132 those

2476
02:33:00,400 --> 02:33:03,800
who have been anointed if you
commit the unpardonable sin by

2477
02:33:03,800 --> 02:33:06,400
shedding innocent blood.
You know, you will not

2478
02:33:06,400 --> 02:33:10,000
forgiveness in this world nor
the world to come and David and

2479
02:33:10,000 --> 02:33:12,200
Joseph.
It teaches us that David will

2480
02:33:12,200 --> 02:33:14,900
be.
Redeemed was shows us that he is

2481
02:33:14,900 --> 02:33:18,300
not yet.
See if that ordinance before he

2482
02:33:18,300 --> 02:33:21,200
fell from his grace.
You know, although I seem to be

2483
02:33:21,200 --> 02:33:24,100
accountable to the level of a
son of perdition.

2484
02:33:24,800 --> 02:33:32,100
Absolutely, absolutely.
So when did the well, let me

2485
02:33:32,100 --> 02:33:37,900
rephrase this, when did the
church start stop doing second

2486
02:33:37,900 --> 02:33:41,000
anointings for the general
membership of the church.

2487
02:33:42,300 --> 02:33:45,600
From from.
So Brigham Young did not

2488
02:33:45,700 --> 02:33:49,100
administer it.
For the first few years of his

2489
02:33:49,100 --> 02:33:52,300
presidency because he wanted to
have a temple done to do it in,

2490
02:33:52,900 --> 02:33:55,300
but after Johnston's, Army came
to Utah.

2491
02:33:55,300 --> 02:34:00,400
And after trouble, with the add,
the anti anti bigamy laws in the

2492
02:34:00,400 --> 02:34:07,500
1860s, they started to anoint
more people in 1866 and 67 and

2493
02:34:07,500 --> 02:34:12,000
onwards.
And from that point forward to

2494
02:34:12,000 --> 02:34:17,300
Joseph Smith's presidency, they
average am and anointed.

2495
02:34:18,000 --> 02:34:19,700
To the fullness of the
priesthood in the second

2496
02:34:19,700 --> 02:34:23,200
meeting, one man, a year a day,
a year.

2497
02:34:23,900 --> 02:34:27,200
Wow.
And then Joseph is so that's

2498
02:34:27,500 --> 02:34:31,700
that's 365 on average.
But at night and every year but

2499
02:34:31,700 --> 02:34:36,200
on average throughout all those
years about and but then through

2500
02:34:36,200 --> 02:34:41,900
Joseph Smith's presidency from
1901 to 1918, I think it was

2501
02:34:41,900 --> 02:34:47,600
about 2000 or 2500 over an
18-year period.

2502
02:34:47,800 --> 02:34:49,900
Is a lot, but it's a lot less
than before.

2503
02:34:50,200 --> 02:34:53,800
Yeah, but it's still a lot if
the, honestly, if the church was

2504
02:34:53,800 --> 02:34:57,200
still doing that and keeping
their covenants because I don't

2505
02:34:57,200 --> 02:35:00,000
believe that the second
anointing inferring that up on

2506
02:35:00,000 --> 02:35:03,300
people without living all the
laws, I don't think it does a

2507
02:35:03,300 --> 02:35:07,000
darn thing to you and that's why
Joseph F Smith had John Henry

2508
02:35:07,000 --> 02:35:08,700
Smith deliver a letter to
Joseph.

2509
02:35:08,700 --> 02:35:12,400
Foster saying now that you've
received this, you have to enter

2510
02:35:12,400 --> 02:35:16,500
into the law, or you will have
your blessings taken from you.

2511
02:35:16,900 --> 02:35:21,400
If you don't Of plural marriage
with the second anointing. or

2512
02:35:21,400 --> 02:35:29,000
Endeavor to its Workforce in my
opinion, but And so, the 2500

2513
02:35:29,000 --> 02:35:33,000
over an 18-year period is
nothing to Snuff a, by any

2514
02:35:33,000 --> 02:35:36,100
means, I think.
But then it was Grant, it was

2515
02:35:36,100 --> 02:35:39,500
under President Grant, they
stopped giving them all boy.

2516
02:35:39,500 --> 02:35:44,800
It seems like he's just he is
the Woodrow Wilson his the

2517
02:35:44,800 --> 02:35:47,900
version of Woodrow Wilson.
Yes, for the LDS church.

2518
02:35:48,200 --> 02:35:52,400
He really is, I mean, everything
bad can go right back to him.

2519
02:35:52,500 --> 02:35:56,500
It seems so which is really
tragic as because He was

2520
02:35:56,500 --> 02:36:01,100
appointed by Revelation and it
is so tragic.

2521
02:36:01,900 --> 02:36:07,700
Yeah, it is.
It is um I want to read what you

2522
02:36:07,700 --> 02:36:10,500
have written down here on fruits
of the kingdom of God real

2523
02:36:10,500 --> 02:36:12,900
quick.
If you're comfortable with that,

2524
02:36:14,700 --> 02:36:16,600
That's why I mention that
already, right?

2525
02:36:16,600 --> 02:36:20,700
But you can know you're right?
We did we did we absolutely did.

2526
02:36:21,800 --> 02:36:25,500
That was a just because John
didn't have the Miracles and

2527
02:36:25,800 --> 02:36:28,100
casting out Devils.
It's recorded that the apostles

2528
02:36:28,100 --> 02:36:31,500
had doesn't mean that John
wasn't illegal administrator and

2529
02:36:31,500 --> 02:36:36,300
at the the Christ probably still
had to go to John legally, to be

2530
02:36:36,300 --> 02:36:38,600
baptized.
Right?

2531
02:36:38,700 --> 02:36:44,300
You know, John was the was the
legal heir of Aaron, you know,

2532
02:36:44,300 --> 02:36:49,000
in the, you know, and the all
the other priests and Levites,

2533
02:36:49,500 --> 02:36:51,400
you know, had completely
apostatize.

2534
02:36:51,700 --> 02:36:59,400
Much at that point, right?
Okay, where do you want to go

2535
02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:02,500
next there?
Big guy residency.

2536
02:37:02,500 --> 02:37:06,600
So we've talked, we've talked a
lot about keys and what keys are

2537
02:37:06,900 --> 02:37:11,900
and that you can that all I, for
example, all the apostles, have

2538
02:37:11,900 --> 02:37:14,000
the keys, or that the keys are
conferred, when you receive a

2539
02:37:14,008 --> 02:37:18,200
fulness of your ordinances and
we've distinguished that's

2540
02:37:18,200 --> 02:37:20,600
different than presidency.
But now let's go back to

2541
02:37:20,600 --> 02:37:25,800
presidency in the priesthood and
talk about Okay, let's do it.

2542
02:37:26,300 --> 02:37:30,900
So in Joseph, Smith's Journal,
which I believe was written

2543
02:37:31,100 --> 02:37:34,600
this.
These entries in particular, I

2544
02:37:34,600 --> 02:37:38,500
think we're dick were written
described by William Clayton.

2545
02:37:40,100 --> 02:37:46,500
On September 28th. 1843, there's
a there's a meeting where

2546
02:37:46,500 --> 02:37:50,500
they're doing Temple ordinances
and it's what we call the

2547
02:37:50,500 --> 02:37:54,900
anointed Quorum.
Now historically or a says the

2548
02:37:54,900 --> 02:37:59,800
Hyrum Smith Newell K, Whitney
Bishop George Miller Willard,

2549
02:37:59,800 --> 02:38:04,400
Richards were washed and
anointed at John John Smith,

2550
02:38:04,700 --> 02:38:09,400
John Taylor a Masa Lyman Lucien
Woodworth, John Byrne, hisle

2551
02:38:09,800 --> 02:38:14,200
We're anointed that evening and
William law and William Marks,

2552
02:38:14,200 --> 02:38:19,300
and Joseph and Joseph Smith then
was by Common consent of all

2553
02:38:19,300 --> 02:38:25,200
those people and unanimous and
by unanimous voice chosen as

2554
02:38:25,200 --> 02:38:28,800
president of the Quorum and
anointed and ordained to the

2555
02:38:28,800 --> 02:38:31,300
highest and holiest order of the
priesthood.

2556
02:38:32,300 --> 02:38:35,900
And so all those other guys got
their second anointings they

2557
02:38:35,900 --> 02:38:40,700
were ministered to by Joseph and
Hyrum probably and then they had

2558
02:38:40,700 --> 02:38:47,200
a quorum and then like unanimous
voice and common consent.

2559
02:38:47,200 --> 02:38:54,100
Joseph was appointed and the
presiding King those Kings and

2560
02:38:54,100 --> 02:39:01,600
Priests unto God, you know, and
so they all hold the keys in

2561
02:39:01,600 --> 02:39:05,200
common, the allport part of
that, anointed Quorum.

2562
02:39:05,600 --> 02:39:09,400
But as we read in the 1880
revelation of Wilford, Woodruff

2563
02:39:09,500 --> 02:39:13,600
it is the order of God and all
generations to have one to

2564
02:39:13,600 --> 02:39:17,800
preside over you.
But it was like, instant am I

2565
02:39:17,800 --> 02:39:22,200
wrote, you know, and Joseph
Smith did not violate the order

2566
02:39:22,200 --> 02:39:24,600
of God.
Well, that's for sure.

2567
02:39:24,600 --> 02:39:27,800
A rule and self appointment.
That's exactly where I was

2568
02:39:27,800 --> 02:39:30,100
going, right.
Let's face it.

2569
02:39:30,200 --> 02:39:34,100
Joseph Smith was charismatic
enough people loved him enough

2570
02:39:34,100 --> 02:39:38,400
where he could have just said, I
am the President of this Quorum

2571
02:39:38,400 --> 02:39:40,200
and nobody would have had an
issue.

2572
02:39:40,400 --> 02:39:44,800
Nobody, but he went through the
rounds, but he went through the

2573
02:39:44,800 --> 02:39:48,700
channels.
Right, which shows there is a

2574
02:39:48,700 --> 02:39:52,300
difference between presidency
and keys.

2575
02:39:53,200 --> 02:39:57,700
Yeah and even with we thought we
touched on earlier with just

2576
02:39:57,700 --> 02:40:01,500
talking about the side this fat
a fallacy of following your

2577
02:40:01,500 --> 02:40:06,300
leaders and and the the
protocols describes and DNC 107

2578
02:40:06,300 --> 02:40:08,900
about trying the president of
the church.

2579
02:40:09,000 --> 02:40:11,700
Joseph Smith was not immune to
that and when he got back from

2580
02:40:11,700 --> 02:40:14,900
Zions camp and 1834 he got put
on trial.

2581
02:40:15,400 --> 02:40:17,100
Yep.
And it wasn't the only time that

2582
02:40:17,100 --> 02:40:20,800
he was and he was not immune to
being put on trial as president

2583
02:40:20,800 --> 02:40:22,800
of the church or presidents of
the priesthood or whatever.

2584
02:40:23,400 --> 02:40:27,800
In 1834 and a high Council was
convened, a new Okay?

2585
02:40:27,800 --> 02:40:30,700
Whitney preside over that.
And they went through the

2586
02:40:30,700 --> 02:40:34,900
procedures of hearing the cases
and he did that on at least two

2587
02:40:34,900 --> 02:40:38,800
occasions.
Yep, yep, that's exactly right.

2588
02:40:38,800 --> 02:40:44,000
When when I quit the LDS church
I remember you know they wanted

2589
02:40:44,000 --> 02:40:47,900
to know what was going on and so
they kind of what they did is

2590
02:40:47,900 --> 02:40:52,000
they kind of read off the temple
recommend questions, right?

2591
02:40:52,700 --> 02:40:55,300
And it Down to do you sustain
rustling.

2592
02:40:55,300 --> 02:40:57,800
Nelson is president of the
church and I said, yeah, I think

2593
02:40:57,800 --> 02:40:59,900
president Russell.
I'm Nelson is president of the

2594
02:40:59,900 --> 02:41:02,400
LDS church.
Well, what about him being a

2595
02:41:02,408 --> 02:41:06,300
prophet Seer and Revelator.
I have no evidence of that,

2596
02:41:06,900 --> 02:41:09,200
right?
We sustain him as such in the

2597
02:41:09,200 --> 02:41:11,600
church but where are the fruits
of it, right?

2598
02:41:11,700 --> 02:41:15,000
It and I think it's a similar
thing here, right?

2599
02:41:15,100 --> 02:41:18,800
You can be president of the
church, you can be president of

2600
02:41:18,800 --> 02:41:21,900
a quorum but that right?
But presence he doesn't have

2601
02:41:21,900 --> 02:41:25,600
anything to do.
With keys or power in the

2602
02:41:25,600 --> 02:41:29,100
priesthood.
It is simply an office to be

2603
02:41:29,100 --> 02:41:31,200
administered.
Yeah.

2604
02:41:32,700 --> 02:41:37,200
And and that point needs to be
driven home because I feel like

2605
02:41:38,900 --> 02:41:42,300
I feel like now especially
within the in the LDS church and

2606
02:41:42,300 --> 02:41:44,600
within certain groups in
fundamentalism.

2607
02:41:45,800 --> 02:41:49,100
There's an assumption made that
if you're the president of

2608
02:41:49,100 --> 02:41:52,400
something, that means you hold
the keys to it all.

2609
02:41:53,100 --> 02:41:55,800
That's not the case, right?
And now you can exercise

2610
02:41:56,000 --> 02:41:59,600
exercise.
Arbitrary rule over those keys.

2611
02:42:00,500 --> 02:42:02,300
Exactly.
Yeah.

2612
02:42:02,300 --> 02:42:07,800
I have a problem with that.
All right.

2613
02:42:09,100 --> 02:42:13,500
What else we got?
Regarding the status of the keys

2614
02:42:13,500 --> 02:42:20,700
on Earth.
Sir.

2615
02:42:27,500 --> 02:42:30,300
That's an interesting thing.
I found in my research for this,

2616
02:42:30,400 --> 02:42:33,900
for this episode is a statement
from Wilford Woodruff in the

2617
02:42:33,908 --> 02:42:40,300
millennial star September 2nd
1889, he says, when the lord

2618
02:42:40,300 --> 02:42:44,500
gave the Keys of the Kingdom of
God, the keys of the Melchizedek

2619
02:42:44,500 --> 02:42:48,900
priesthood of the apostleship
and sealed them upon the head of

2620
02:42:48,900 --> 02:42:53,100
Joseph Smith, he steal them upon
his head to stay here upon the

2621
02:42:53,100 --> 02:42:55,600
Earth until the coming of the
son of man.

2622
02:42:56,300 --> 02:43:00,000
They were then with Look to the
day of his death, they then

2623
02:43:00,100 --> 02:43:01,900
rested upon the head of another
man.

2624
02:43:02,200 --> 02:43:04,800
He held those keys to the hour
of his death.

2625
02:43:05,300 --> 02:43:09,800
They then fell by turn or in the
Providence of God upon Wilford.

2626
02:43:09,800 --> 02:43:14,200
Woodruff I say to the Latter-Day
Saints, the Keys of the Kingdom

2627
02:43:14,200 --> 02:43:17,300
of God are here.
And they are going to stay here

2628
02:43:17,300 --> 02:43:19,500
to until the coming of the son
of man.

2629
02:43:19,800 --> 02:43:23,600
Let all Israel understand that
they may not rest upon my head

2630
02:43:23,600 --> 02:43:27,300
but a short time but they will
rest on the head of another Our

2631
02:43:27,300 --> 02:43:31,200
Apostle and another after him,
and so continue, until the

2632
02:43:31,200 --> 02:43:34,200
coming of the Lord Jesus Christ
in the Clouds Of Heaven to

2633
02:43:34,200 --> 02:43:36,800
reward every man according to
the Deeds Done in the body.

2634
02:43:37,200 --> 02:43:42,800
And so I think when he's talking
about that the presidency one

2635
02:43:42,800 --> 02:43:47,000
from one man to another, he is,
I think talking about presidency

2636
02:43:47,100 --> 02:43:51,300
in the church and pray that, you
know, the keys of presidency of

2637
02:43:51,300 --> 02:43:55,600
corms because like, we
established earlier nine years

2638
02:43:55,600 --> 02:43:59,000
before that he got Hep.
His Revelation in the desert in

2639
02:43:59,008 --> 02:44:04,100
Arizona, the Lord expressly told
him that the apostles hold the

2640
02:44:04,100 --> 02:44:08,100
keys in common with each other.
But then that goes back to what

2641
02:44:08,100 --> 02:44:10,100
we talked about with.
Like the elders Quorum was the

2642
02:44:10,100 --> 02:44:13,600
president of the Quorum is the
channel through to legally.

2643
02:44:13,600 --> 02:44:16,900
And authoritatively commit, the
whole quorum to a course of

2644
02:44:16,900 --> 02:44:18,300
action.
And moving mrs.

2645
02:44:18,300 --> 02:44:23,800
Smith, From one apartment to the
other, you can't do that without

2646
02:44:23,800 --> 02:44:27,100
the president say so.
And so, in that sense, I think

2647
02:44:27,100 --> 02:44:29,900
you have to balance those two
statements, but there is very

2648
02:44:29,900 --> 02:44:31,900
strong that the priesthood is
here.

2649
02:44:32,400 --> 02:44:35,000
The priesthood.
It is in the apostleship.

2650
02:44:35,700 --> 02:44:37,900
It is resting here at will not
be restored.

2651
02:44:37,900 --> 02:44:41,800
It's going to stay on the earth
and so you can't bypass the

2652
02:44:41,800 --> 02:44:45,600
priests of channels that are on
the earth and right now, We are,

2653
02:44:45,600 --> 02:44:48,000
we are befuddled.
Yeah there there are priests and

2654
02:44:48,000 --> 02:44:52,500
groups and and channels.
The I am not going to say that

2655
02:44:52,500 --> 02:44:55,000
there's one legitimate line of
authority.

2656
02:44:56,400 --> 02:45:00,300
Most at the moment can trace
their authority to 1886 and I

2657
02:45:00,300 --> 02:45:04,700
think that's good that doesn't
mean that we couldn't try to be

2658
02:45:04,700 --> 02:45:09,100
better with what we're doing and
be a little more organized and

2659
02:45:09,100 --> 02:45:12,600
More in order.
To build up the kingdom of God

2660
02:45:12,600 --> 02:45:15,300
because order is necessary to
build up the kingdom of God.

2661
02:45:15,300 --> 02:45:18,600
And I'll tell you what I'm sick.
You know, the the children of

2662
02:45:18,600 --> 02:45:23,200
Israel wandered for 40 years, in
the wilderness of fundamentalism

2663
02:45:24,000 --> 02:45:27,900
in seven years as wandered for
100 years in the wilderness.

2664
02:45:30,100 --> 02:45:31,600
Yeah.
In.

2665
02:45:32,300 --> 02:45:34,600
And we're getting down towards
the end of this thing.

2666
02:45:36,400 --> 02:45:39,800
And that's, that's the big
question, right?

2667
02:45:39,800 --> 02:45:43,800
Because On The Mentalist
shouldn't say every a lot of

2668
02:45:43,800 --> 02:45:48,000
fundamentalist run around,
looking for keys, right?

2669
02:45:48,000 --> 02:45:52,100
Looking for presidency, and
until there.

2670
02:45:52,100 --> 02:45:57,000
And and I think that's why this
topic was so heavy on your heart

2671
02:45:57,000 --> 02:46:01,100
until we understand the
difference between the keys and

2672
02:46:01,100 --> 02:46:04,700
presidency will never get to
where we need to be.

2673
02:46:04,700 --> 02:46:07,700
As far as we're going to, we're
going to be too busy fighting

2674
02:46:07,700 --> 02:46:11,100
each other on who has a right to
exercise control over the keys.

2675
02:46:11,200 --> 02:46:13,200
22 and we will continue to
divide.

2676
02:46:13,200 --> 02:46:14,900
In fact, there's a brother in
this community.

2677
02:46:15,300 --> 02:46:19,100
Yeah, he's got a few wives and
I'll here in Missouri.

2678
02:46:19,400 --> 02:46:23,700
I think people have become more
open in the communities around

2679
02:46:23,700 --> 02:46:25,300
and people and polygamists in
Utah.

2680
02:46:25,300 --> 02:46:27,300
Are they still just don't care
out here?

2681
02:46:28,000 --> 02:46:32,600
And he took his family out
public and the remarks were

2682
02:46:34,200 --> 02:46:36,200
Dang, you guys multiply like
crazy.

2683
02:46:36,200 --> 02:46:38,800
Are you guys are?
Well, I've got a lot of kids and

2684
02:46:38,800 --> 02:46:42,100
the brother says, you know, if
you think we're really good at

2685
02:46:42,100 --> 02:46:44,300
multiplying, you just, you
should see how good we are at

2686
02:46:44,300 --> 02:46:51,500
dividing.
No he's 100% correct.

2687
02:46:51,900 --> 02:46:56,000
He's 100% correct and I don't
know how it all works out,

2688
02:46:56,000 --> 02:46:57,600
right?
I mean, look no.

2689
02:46:57,600 --> 02:47:05,500
No, we look, we know and in the
days, leading up to Christ's

2690
02:47:05,500 --> 02:47:09,500
coming in the Book of Mormon
that there were different

2691
02:47:09,500 --> 02:47:12,600
tribes, right?
And maybe these are different

2692
02:47:12,600 --> 02:47:16,900
tribes, but at some point it's
going to take us all it's going

2693
02:47:16,900 --> 02:47:19,700
to take everybody.
Need to stand up where they've

2694
02:47:19,700 --> 02:47:23,700
been called to stand and to
build the kingdom.

2695
02:47:25,000 --> 02:47:27,800
You know, maybe that's in
separate geographical locations

2696
02:47:27,800 --> 02:47:29,900
and that's okay.
I can see the wisdom in that,

2697
02:47:30,500 --> 02:47:34,600
but at some point is, it's some
point we're going to have to be

2698
02:47:34,600 --> 02:47:37,600
at least cordial with each
other, right?

2699
02:47:37,600 --> 02:47:41,900
There's a lot of groups, the
marriage problem might solve

2700
02:47:41,900 --> 02:47:45,200
that, you know, because some
groups are getting small enough

2701
02:47:45,200 --> 02:47:47,500
now that you're going to start
getting problems with who you

2702
02:47:47,508 --> 02:47:49,000
can marry.
Yeah.

2703
02:47:49,700 --> 02:47:55,100
If you don't Get new converts,
or if you don't become

2704
02:47:55,200 --> 02:47:58,100
negotiable, right?
Right.

2705
02:47:58,400 --> 02:48:02,000
And diplomatic.
And I think that's why this

2706
02:48:02,000 --> 02:48:06,700
subject is so important, right?
Because if we had a correct

2707
02:48:06,700 --> 02:48:10,000
view, as we've tried to lay that
way out here today, which I

2708
02:48:10,000 --> 02:48:12,700
think you would have done, which
would have been way easier for

2709
02:48:12,700 --> 02:48:14,800
you if you'd had a better
podcast host.

2710
02:48:15,300 --> 02:48:23,400
But but but you have the, once
we Have a healthy robust,

2711
02:48:23,500 --> 02:48:28,200
correct view of the differences
between keys and presidency.

2712
02:48:29,300 --> 02:48:32,000
We can move forward with that,
right?

2713
02:48:32,000 --> 02:48:36,100
Because the whole, my whole
dream on that this point because

2714
02:48:36,800 --> 02:48:42,500
you could have somebody from one
group Just grab another guy from

2715
02:48:42,500 --> 02:48:44,700
another group.
If he's close geographically and

2716
02:48:44,700 --> 02:48:47,000
say brother, would you help me
give a blessing because I have

2717
02:48:47,000 --> 02:48:51,700
respect for your keys and for
your in for your priesthood

2718
02:48:51,700 --> 02:48:56,100
lineage and be able to do that.
But at the same time that same

2719
02:48:56,100 --> 02:49:02,100
Brethren who was asked, would
say, I absolutely but I respect

2720
02:49:02,100 --> 02:49:06,200
your role as president in this
group, right, right.

2721
02:49:06,200 --> 02:49:08,400
Right.
And those things can completely

2722
02:49:08,400 --> 02:49:13,600
work, but we have To set aside
our egos to make that work,

2723
02:49:13,900 --> 02:49:15,800
right?
I've seen so many cases people.

2724
02:49:15,800 --> 02:49:19,500
Are you for presidency based on
the number of wives that you

2725
02:49:19,500 --> 02:49:21,100
have?
Like, I have three wives and you

2726
02:49:21,100 --> 02:49:23,000
have to therefore, I'm more
qualified.

2727
02:49:23,200 --> 02:49:26,100
That's bull crap.
That's absolutely bullcrap to,

2728
02:49:26,300 --> 02:49:28,800
to take it to that.
Level of I can preside over your

2729
02:49:28,800 --> 02:49:32,700
family, especially if there's no
Quorum, you know, and we're in a

2730
02:49:32,700 --> 02:49:35,000
condition.
Some people out here a condition

2731
02:49:35,000 --> 02:49:37,600
where there's not really an
organized form on that level of

2732
02:49:37,600 --> 02:49:45,200
apostleship and it's You can't
preside over anything besides

2733
02:49:45,200 --> 02:49:48,800
your own family, in my opinion,
unless there's a quorum and

2734
02:49:48,800 --> 02:49:51,600
Order followed and this
presidency of the priesthood

2735
02:49:52,600 --> 02:49:55,800
that has talked about in the
fundamentalism so much, you need

2736
02:49:55,800 --> 02:49:58,600
to be anointed.
And as Joseph Smith, you need to

2737
02:49:58,600 --> 02:50:03,700
be appointed by constituents by
peers to equal standing with the

2738
02:50:03,700 --> 02:50:06,000
keys before you fill that
position.

2739
02:50:06,000 --> 02:50:12,700
And even then recognize what you
were being set apart to Is an

2740
02:50:12,700 --> 02:50:16,500
office of service that you're
helping that you're helping the

2741
02:50:16,500 --> 02:50:19,700
kingdom of God, being more
organized, where you can be an

2742
02:50:19,700 --> 02:50:23,200
Arbiter between disagreements
and positions or parties within

2743
02:50:23,200 --> 02:50:28,700
the Quorum and keep peace.
And I love Lorenzo Snow.

2744
02:50:28,700 --> 02:50:31,200
He did a fantastic job as
president of the Quorum of The

2745
02:50:31,200 --> 02:50:34,200
Twelve.
When John W, Taylor and George Q

2746
02:50:34,200 --> 02:50:38,200
Cannon were getting after each
other, over some stuff over

2747
02:50:38,200 --> 02:50:41,600
business dealings that they had
and Lorenzo Snow went to John

2748
02:50:41,600 --> 02:50:45,700
Donne Taylor and said, look, you
know, you need to, you need to

2749
02:50:46,500 --> 02:50:49,600
humble yourself and you need to
keep the peace and go apologize

2750
02:50:49,600 --> 02:50:52,300
in the future.
If you do this, then this is

2751
02:50:52,300 --> 02:50:56,400
going to happen.
And and so I admire that kind of

2752
02:50:56,900 --> 02:50:59,800
Lorenzo Snow took that
responsibility seriously of

2753
02:50:59,800 --> 02:51:02,500
keeping Harmony in his own
Quorum, you know, there.

2754
02:51:04,000 --> 02:51:08,200
I want to go back to what you
said, the role of President

2755
02:51:08,200 --> 02:51:13,300
being a position of service
because I think that has to be

2756
02:51:13,300 --> 02:51:16,900
front and center for anybody in
that position.

2757
02:51:17,300 --> 02:51:21,800
And understand, this isn't
something for you to gloat over

2758
02:51:21,800 --> 02:51:24,600
somebody else, right?
Right.

2759
02:51:24,900 --> 02:51:27,900
This is for you.
Understand.

2760
02:51:27,900 --> 02:51:30,700
This is a position of service,
right?

2761
02:51:31,500 --> 02:51:36,400
The model I look at is the
Saviour Let's go back to what he

2762
02:51:36,400 --> 02:51:40,800
did to for the apostles, right?
He washed their feet.

2763
02:51:40,900 --> 02:51:44,600
Now I think we kind of gloss
over that a little bit.

2764
02:51:44,600 --> 02:51:48,900
Sometimes we do.
Back in the old days, they

2765
02:51:48,900 --> 02:51:52,100
didn't have shoes.
They were sandals.

2766
02:51:52,400 --> 02:51:57,100
So, your feet were dirty, they
were nasty and the savior's down

2767
02:51:57,100 --> 02:52:00,800
on his knees.
The savior of all mankind.

2768
02:52:02,100 --> 02:52:06,600
Is on his knees, washing the
feet of those.

2769
02:52:08,000 --> 02:52:12,000
Who in?
In theory were subordinate to

2770
02:52:12,000 --> 02:52:18,000
him as a person who works in
construction, I get that my

2771
02:52:18,000 --> 02:52:20,900
feet.
I wear boots and I got calluses

2772
02:52:20,900 --> 02:52:23,700
on my feet, they're nothing to
Snuff at.

2773
02:52:24,300 --> 02:52:27,400
And so for people to be walking
around Barefoot, that is some

2774
02:52:27,400 --> 02:52:30,300
nasty feet and it said to
subject yourself.

2775
02:52:31,200 --> 02:52:34,100
Oh man.
But less it was appraised Our

2776
02:52:34,100 --> 02:52:37,100
Savior for that but there's a
lesson there.

2777
02:52:37,400 --> 02:52:39,400
There that is done
intentionally.

2778
02:52:40,000 --> 02:52:42,600
Exactly.
And that's the kind of service

2779
02:52:42,600 --> 02:52:47,400
you have to be willing to render
if you are going to be effective

2780
02:52:47,400 --> 02:52:55,500
in presidency because if you
come at it from a position of I

2781
02:52:55,500 --> 02:52:57,500
just get to Lord it over
somebody else.

2782
02:52:57,500 --> 02:53:01,500
Now, you are failing, you are
failing yourself, you are

2783
02:53:01,500 --> 02:53:05,400
failing your brethren, and you
are failing, the Lord in that

2784
02:53:05,400 --> 02:53:10,600
column.
And again, if we can get, if we

2785
02:53:10,600 --> 02:53:14,100
can get past that, that's
effective presidency.

2786
02:53:14,400 --> 02:53:18,300
That is effectively using your
priesthood and effectively using

2787
02:53:18,300 --> 02:53:21,500
your keys.
So service I believe is at the

2788
02:53:21,500 --> 02:53:24,900
heart of this whole thing.
If we can't, if we can't be of

2789
02:53:24,900 --> 02:53:29,900
service, we are of no use in the
Kingdom Service and through

2790
02:53:29,900 --> 02:53:32,900
service you will come Hugh,
humble and through humility.

2791
02:53:33,700 --> 02:53:36,300
You're able to say when a
charges brought against you.

2792
02:53:36,300 --> 02:53:38,900
Okay, let's hold.
Court as priests import, let's

2793
02:53:38,900 --> 02:53:42,100
hear the witnesses and follow
and you'll follow through the

2794
02:53:42,100 --> 02:53:45,100
procedures, and when you remain
humble, you're not.

2795
02:53:45,900 --> 02:53:48,700
That's your Shield.
I guess, falling from grace and

2796
02:53:48,700 --> 02:53:50,800
exercising.
The Temptations of arbitrary

2797
02:53:50,800 --> 02:53:54,500
Rule.
And and then, and then the one

2798
02:53:54,500 --> 02:53:58,100
man becoming a law unto himself.
And so through service, they're

2799
02:53:58,100 --> 02:54:01,500
genuine service, that's the key
and the Safeguard in the

2800
02:54:01,500 --> 02:54:04,400
protection against the coming
along to yourself.

2801
02:54:04,800 --> 02:54:08,900
Absolutely.
Absolutely, well, brother, we've

2802
02:54:08,900 --> 02:54:10,900
been at this nearly three hours
now.

2803
02:54:11,900 --> 02:54:16,100
What you want to say in
conclusion, in conclusion, we've

2804
02:54:16,100 --> 02:54:20,000
talked about the differences
between keys and presidency

2805
02:54:20,200 --> 02:54:24,800
Powers priesthood, and even the
difference between a prophet and

2806
02:54:24,800 --> 02:54:27,600
a president, and a prophet, and
apostle.

2807
02:54:29,500 --> 02:54:33,000
And I hope these things can all
get be weighed equally.

2808
02:54:34,500 --> 02:54:36,600
I hope people enjoy this and
learn from it.

2809
02:54:36,600 --> 02:54:39,000
It's been my prayer in my heart
for four years to get this

2810
02:54:39,000 --> 02:54:41,600
straight.
And finally, I feel like I'm

2811
02:54:41,608 --> 02:54:46,400
getting somewhere, but the roles
and profit, there's two, there's

2812
02:54:46,400 --> 02:54:52,600
kind of two points, two roles
And like I said, prophethood is

2813
02:54:52,600 --> 02:54:55,400
not limited to presidency.
It's not even limited to holding

2814
02:54:55,400 --> 02:54:59,600
the keys technically in by the
definitions, I'm going to give

2815
02:54:59,600 --> 02:55:02,300
but succinctly I think that
these are the definitions of a

2816
02:55:02,308 --> 02:55:07,500
prophet of God.
One to warn Nations groups and

2817
02:55:07,500 --> 02:55:11,000
individuals to repent of their
wickedness or to expose their

2818
02:55:11,000 --> 02:55:16,000
wickedness and to, to teach
individuals how to have their

2819
02:55:16,000 --> 02:55:20,200
calling and election made sure
by coaxing and encouraging them

2820
02:55:20,200 --> 02:55:24,100
to come to Zion physically, and
mentally and spiritually to come

2821
02:55:24,100 --> 02:55:28,700
to Zion by obeying.
The Commandments of God and

2822
02:55:28,700 --> 02:55:31,800
entering into an observing, the
Oaths, and Covenants of the

2823
02:55:31,800 --> 02:55:35,600
priesthood.
I think you're missing Seth

2824
02:55:35,800 --> 02:55:37,600
because there's nothing in there
about forcibly.

2825
02:55:37,600 --> 02:55:41,900
Making people do that.
I don't see it anywhere.

2826
02:55:41,900 --> 02:55:46,200
I think you must have been like
oh yeah, and listen, listen to

2827
02:55:46,200 --> 02:55:48,800
what I have to say because all
in the president of a priestess,

2828
02:55:52,100 --> 02:55:58,700
Yeah, no no and again those are
those sound remarkably like acts

2829
02:55:58,700 --> 02:56:02,700
of service right there and
that's why I think Joseph Smith

2830
02:56:02,700 --> 02:56:04,900
fits this profile here.
That's what exactly what he

2831
02:56:04,900 --> 02:56:07,400
tried to do is he was trying to
get people to come into a

2832
02:56:07,400 --> 02:56:09,700
position where they could have
their calling and election made

2833
02:56:09,700 --> 02:56:12,900
sure, you know?
But it was by the proper

2834
02:56:12,900 --> 02:56:16,000
Channel, by legal
Administration, just like Christ

2835
02:56:16,000 --> 02:56:21,300
went to John the Baptist and He
recognizes that's the only way

2836
02:56:21,300 --> 02:56:23,100
that you can get them and you
promise.

2837
02:56:29,100 --> 02:56:32,900
I want to focus a go ahead, go
ahead.

2838
02:56:34,500 --> 02:56:39,400
I would say before I forget with
these things in mind but service

2839
02:56:39,600 --> 02:56:47,300
and with with helping others
keep make their Covenants, I'll

2840
02:56:47,300 --> 02:56:49,300
lose my train of thought again.
I should have just kept come up

2841
02:56:49,300 --> 02:56:52,200
with it.
You can edit this part you go.

2842
02:56:53,000 --> 02:56:56,900
Okay no sweat the word.
I wanted to focus on there was a

2843
02:56:56,908 --> 02:57:01,300
number two, which is the word
coaxing rice.

2844
02:57:01,500 --> 02:57:03,900
Yes, yes, yes.
There is no.

2845
02:57:06,100 --> 02:57:12,500
There is no sign of forcible.
You know, there's no Force

2846
02:57:12,500 --> 02:57:16,400
involved there.
It is just a love, right,

2847
02:57:16,400 --> 02:57:20,300
please, please come with me.
There's something better here?

2848
02:57:20,300 --> 02:57:24,900
Come, come to, Zion come come
this way, come to the Lord, let

2849
02:57:24,900 --> 02:57:27,800
me, let me introduce, you know.
Let me point you to the Savior.

2850
02:57:28,400 --> 02:57:31,900
The other thing, even the
warning of Nations and groups.

2851
02:57:31,900 --> 02:57:36,600
There's a time to be tough and
there is a time to be blunt, but

2852
02:57:36,600 --> 02:57:39,800
there's also times to be like,
please, Do this.

2853
02:57:39,800 --> 02:57:43,500
Please don't go down this road
and it totally depends on the

2854
02:57:43,500 --> 02:57:46,500
spirit and upon the individual,
you're talking to.

2855
02:57:46,800 --> 02:57:49,100
Absolutely, and there's a
reticence.

2856
02:57:49,100 --> 02:57:52,100
Like I said, I'm a lot of people
who are in possession of

2857
02:57:52,100 --> 02:57:54,900
knowledge of the fullness of the
Gospel who say, I'm not going to

2858
02:57:54,908 --> 02:57:57,800
say a darn thing about it.
Unless someone asks me and

2859
02:57:57,800 --> 02:58:01,100
that's where I get this coaxing
thing from is no no no, no, you

2860
02:58:01,100 --> 02:58:05,100
can't do that, you're not living
unless you offer more light

2861
02:58:05,100 --> 02:58:09,100
knowledge, other people, you
need to go and to coax them and

2862
02:58:09,200 --> 02:58:12,100
Urge them to lead them in to
entice them with the spirit of

2863
02:58:12,100 --> 02:58:13,900
God, about the spirit of the
devil.

2864
02:58:13,900 --> 02:58:16,300
Because the spirit of the devil
can entice as well.

2865
02:58:16,400 --> 02:58:20,000
But you need to go and entice
them to receive more light

2866
02:58:20,000 --> 02:58:24,700
knowledge.
And if you do not do that, That

2867
02:58:24,800 --> 02:58:26,700
you have no part with a lord.
I don't think.

2868
02:58:26,800 --> 02:58:29,800
Now there are times where you
don't throw Pearls Before Swine

2869
02:58:29,800 --> 02:58:32,400
or or holy things to dogs, I get
that.

2870
02:58:32,400 --> 02:58:34,800
I'm fully with that.
There's a time and a place but

2871
02:58:34,800 --> 02:58:38,600
it's not the absolute Rule and
here's the thing, you always

2872
02:58:38,600 --> 02:58:42,800
know, right?
You always know the the

2873
02:58:42,800 --> 02:58:44,900
temperature of the room, so to
speak, right?

2874
02:58:44,900 --> 02:58:49,800
And, you know, when you can talk
about things and what things you

2875
02:58:49,800 --> 02:58:54,200
can talk about that moment,
well, I remember what I was

2876
02:58:54,200 --> 02:59:00,600
going to say earlier, there's a
What with all these things in

2877
02:59:00,600 --> 02:59:03,400
mind?
Understanding presidency,

2878
02:59:03,400 --> 02:59:06,800
understanding keys.
Understanding legal

2879
02:59:06,800 --> 02:59:08,900
Administration.
And that there is an order to

2880
02:59:08,900 --> 02:59:14,700
the priesthood.
You're not justified without a

2881
02:59:14,708 --> 02:59:19,200
legal claim to keys, but at the
same time, just because you have

2882
02:59:19,200 --> 02:59:22,700
the keys.
If you're, if you're going to

2883
02:59:22,700 --> 02:59:26,600
question your file leaders, Or
not sustain.

2884
02:59:26,600 --> 02:59:31,300
People don't be stupid about it.
Don't no, don't go.

2885
02:59:31,300 --> 02:59:34,200
And question the authorities
that are there in existence and

2886
02:59:34,200 --> 02:59:37,100
be stupid about the way it
because there are ways where you

2887
02:59:37,100 --> 02:59:41,600
can really just not do it, but
be bold but mashed a boldness

2888
02:59:41,600 --> 02:59:44,400
with love, that's the thing that
keeps coming back to me in

2889
02:59:44,400 --> 02:59:46,700
everything.
With with these principles is

2890
02:59:47,800 --> 02:59:50,900
back to Owen Woodruff, he should
have stood up with his opinion.

2891
02:59:51,400 --> 02:59:54,100
So we like why should stand up
for what we believe to be true

2892
02:59:54,100 --> 02:59:58,800
principles be home.
And and not proud to be able to

2893
02:59:58,800 --> 03:00:01,000
reason with each other, but
don't do it.

2894
03:00:02,100 --> 03:00:03,400
It's don't be stupid when you do
it.

2895
03:00:03,400 --> 03:00:07,200
When you when you when you
criticize or and and try to set

2896
03:00:07,200 --> 03:00:12,300
people in order, do it with a
spirit, try so hard and even

2897
03:00:12,300 --> 03:00:14,400
realize maybe you could be wrong
too.

2898
03:00:14,400 --> 03:00:16,700
And there's so much that goes
into play here.

2899
03:00:17,500 --> 03:00:24,700
You know, there's no one rule I
think we've observed No, what

2900
03:00:25,100 --> 03:00:26,300
would you say?
That's right?

2901
03:00:26,300 --> 03:00:30,800
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think you're 100% correct

2902
03:00:30,800 --> 03:00:38,600
there Michael. so, Well man,
we've covered a lot.

2903
03:00:38,600 --> 03:00:41,900
This was great.
I am so glad you came on to talk

2904
03:00:41,900 --> 03:00:46,400
about this because again, we're
so fractured as a people.

2905
03:00:47,400 --> 03:00:52,700
And at some point there has to
be a call to Unity, even if that

2906
03:00:52,700 --> 03:00:57,200
Unity is spread out over
distance there, still has to be

2907
03:00:57,200 --> 03:01:01,200
some Unity.
We have to begin to see each

2908
03:01:01,200 --> 03:01:04,100
other as how it was one.
We're working for the same goal,

2909
03:01:04,500 --> 03:01:08,700
unless you get to the minutiae
of it, where I'm paying my

2910
03:01:08,700 --> 03:01:11,900
tithing to this guy and he's
using it to build a mansion in

2911
03:01:11,900 --> 03:01:14,700
the community.
And I really the work I'm doing

2912
03:01:15,100 --> 03:01:19,200
is building up the priesthood
Council and and or the president

2913
03:01:19,200 --> 03:01:22,000
of the council.
Maybe I should look at that or,

2914
03:01:22,500 --> 03:01:25,500
you know, but if we can get
past, those little manutius of

2915
03:01:25,500 --> 03:01:30,300
where the tie thing is going or,
you know, You know, these claims

2916
03:01:30,300 --> 03:01:34,500
to Authority and begin to say,
we are all really having the

2917
03:01:34,500 --> 03:01:38,000
same goal, keeping the keys on
the earth having, right?

2918
03:01:38,000 --> 03:01:41,700
Theo having righteous families,
living the patriarchal order of

2919
03:01:41,700 --> 03:01:44,800
marriage.
Having a buttload of kids who we

2920
03:01:44,800 --> 03:01:49,100
try our best to teach correct
principles so that they can be

2921
03:01:49,100 --> 03:01:51,500
tools in the hands of the Lord
to change the world.

2922
03:01:51,600 --> 03:01:53,800
Those are all things that the
fundamentalist that we have in

2923
03:01:53,800 --> 03:01:55,200
common.
Mmm.

2924
03:01:57,000 --> 03:01:58,000
Yep.
Yep.

2925
03:01:58,000 --> 03:02:01,100
And we shouldn't be By each
other, right?

2926
03:02:01,100 --> 03:02:05,800
I think, I think too often we've
looked at priesthood and keys

2927
03:02:05,800 --> 03:02:10,500
and presidency as a very limited
pie, right?

2928
03:02:10,600 --> 03:02:14,200
Yeah, and lights, when you do it
that way, and when you do it

2929
03:02:14,200 --> 03:02:19,200
that way, it builds walls, it
builds an inability to

2930
03:02:19,200 --> 03:02:21,200
communicate and to work
together.

2931
03:02:22,000 --> 03:02:28,800
And we need to understand that.
And that's why I keep thinking

2932
03:02:28,800 --> 03:02:33,200
about that.
That statement by Brigham Young

2933
03:02:33,200 --> 03:02:34,900
about.
We're going to pass out those

2934
03:02:34,900 --> 03:02:37,500
keys to make sure that it never
goes away it.

2935
03:02:38,000 --> 03:02:41,300
There's no limit on the amount
of priesthood, Authority and

2936
03:02:41,300 --> 03:02:43,800
power that the Lord can pass
out.

2937
03:02:45,000 --> 03:02:51,300
We just have to be willing.
For those groups of people who

2938
03:02:51,300 --> 03:02:53,800
think that their content was, we
got a council.

2939
03:02:54,000 --> 03:02:58,000
We have all the people that we
need, we were successful, we

2940
03:02:58,008 --> 03:03:00,700
don't have these problems.
If you don't play by the

2941
03:03:00,700 --> 03:03:03,500
principles, and by the rules
that, I think you, and I have

2942
03:03:03,500 --> 03:03:07,200
articulated tonight, you will
find yourself, spiritually,

2943
03:03:07,200 --> 03:03:08,900
dead.
And in a gridlock in your

2944
03:03:08,900 --> 03:03:11,500
presiding forms and you will not
be able to be led by the spirit

2945
03:03:11,500 --> 03:03:14,700
of the Lord.
Because even though there seems

2946
03:03:14,700 --> 03:03:17,900
to be order in a seems to be all
alone, Zai all as well as Ian.

2947
03:03:18,500 --> 03:03:21,400
I guarantee you To an extent.
The spirit of the Lord is

2948
03:03:21,400 --> 03:03:23,600
grieved in your counsels and
you're not receiving the light

2949
03:03:23,600 --> 03:03:25,900
and knowledge that you would, if
you were living by these

2950
03:03:25,900 --> 03:03:28,000
principles.
And if you're following the

2951
03:03:28,000 --> 03:03:33,600
order of presidency and
respecting the keys in the

2952
03:03:33,600 --> 03:03:37,500
Quorum at I would say as well.
Absolutely.

2953
03:03:39,200 --> 03:03:41,200
Well Michael, this has been
awesome.

2954
03:03:41,300 --> 03:03:43,100
I appreciate it.
So, very much.

2955
03:03:43,100 --> 03:03:45,200
Is there anything else you want
to say in conclusion?

2956
03:03:46,300 --> 03:03:50,400
No, I think I think that wraps
up for me just very grateful for

2957
03:03:50,700 --> 03:03:52,900
the opportunity to come on again
for a third time.

2958
03:03:52,900 --> 03:03:56,600
And oh man, my prayers just a
people can really resonate with

2959
03:03:56,600 --> 03:03:59,900
this and understand and less.
Let's go build the kingdom of

2960
03:03:59,900 --> 03:04:01,400
God.
Be better than we have been

2961
03:04:01,900 --> 03:04:05,500
Absol this as a people.
Absolutely.

2962
03:04:05,500 --> 03:04:08,400
Amen to that.
All right, everybody will talk

2963
03:04:08,400 --> 03:04:09,700
to you next time.
Bye.