Episode #177: Temple Covenants Series-PT.7-The Law Of Consecration W/David Nielsen

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Hi everybody.
Before we just jump into this

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episode, I just wanted to throw
out a quick reminder about the

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Gospel Fundamentals class that
will be taught by Taylor Smith

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that starts this Thursday, April
3rd.

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This is a class that's open to
everybody, fundamentalist LDS

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members, uncorrelated Mormons,
or anyone who's not Mormon for

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that matter.
If this is something you're

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interested in, just click on the
link in this episode, show notes

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and get signed up today.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Dave, what's going on, man?

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How?
You doing?

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It's been quite a deal.
What's that?

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Nice.
It's been quite a deal but we're

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doing good.
Yeah, good.

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Work's going good.
Staying busy.

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Yep, Yep, family's all good.
For the most part, as much as

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they can be, you know, big
families.

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I hear you.
I hear you.

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So real quick, just to give
everybody some background here,

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you're, you're, you've been a
lifelong Mormon fundamentalist,

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right?
That's right.

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Yep.
Born and raised.

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Born and raised.
Nice, nice.

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So and if you want, I can edit
this part out later, but you are

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part of the what is commonly
referred to as the Nielsen

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Naylors, right?
I know there's a better, more

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official name maybe.
Yeah, the the better, more

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official name we usually send to
peoples, the church and Kingdom.

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OK.
But Nielsen Naylor's is the more

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of the online understanding most
people.

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Oh, you know, I always want to
be careful there.

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I, I say, Oh yeah, go ahead.
I say plenty of things that that

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that I stick my foot in my mouth
for.

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So I don't want to, I want to
offend as few people as

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possible.
But yeah, man, I'm, I'm glad to

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have you on.
And it's kind of funny how, how

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this worked out.
So we, I knew in this temple

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series, I knew I had to do one
on the law of consecration and I

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just could not find anybody who,
who, who I felt really kind of

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good about asking on this
particular subject.

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And I was kind of starting to
get panic because I was about

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two weeks out from from
dropping, you know, needing to

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drop this one.
And then like, you reached out

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and we just start talking a
little bit and I'm like, oh,

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yeah, no, I think you asked
specifically about consecration.

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I'm like, there's my guy right
there.

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So it's funny how all this works
out.

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Yeah, and I felt bad because I
had felt like reaching out to

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you as soon as I saw the first
one you dropped and with the law

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of obedience.
And I thought, I need to reach

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out to him because I've been
thinking about consecration and

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it's in and its effects on, on
our lives and how it's, it's

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something that's often talked
about, but not really, you know,

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well, it's talked like we're
going to live this one day, or

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maybe we're, we're doing it in
our heart.

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And so I started studying it
some time ago.

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And then I saw your thing pop up
and I thought, oh, well, I

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wonder who he has doing that.
And then I thought, well, I

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don't want to put myself out
there, but.

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But then I was sitting in the
Denver airport and something hit

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me really hard.
And it said, just text him.

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So I did.
And then you said, call me.

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And so we had this good
conversation.

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So I think it was maybe supposed
to be.

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You know that this happens more
frequently than people would

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imagine.
I mean, just in this series

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alone, when, when, when I
interviewed Seth Lob about the

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law of sacrifice.
Cuz look, I make, I make a lot

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of these.
Almost all of them.

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Well, pretty much all of them.
A matter of prayer, right?

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Where I'll just try to figure
out who, who's best to bring on.

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And Seth's name came to me and I
called Seth and it's like, hey

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man, you want to come on and
talk about this?

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He's like, you know, it's funny
you should bring that up because

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I was just studying on this and
felt like I should.

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So, so that's for everybody else
out there who, you know, if you

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feel like, gosh, maybe I, I
should give a talk on this or

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something, reach out to me.
Chances are it's something that

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I may be thinking about.
And if not, I probably should be

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thinking about.
And so, yeah, I mean, if you're

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feeling prompted, anybody out
there give me a call.

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We'll, we'll, we'll get you on
and, and get it moving.

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But so today's consecration,
consecration is a big one.

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Yeah, it's there a lot of
history involved here and

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there's a lot we can talk about
in relation to the doctrine and

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what's contained in the temple
and how it applies.

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I think we'll have a good
conversation.

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Awesome.
And now we we want to start in

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the history, right?
That's that's always a good

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place because if we understand
where something comes from and

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what it was instituted for, we
might be able to better place it

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into our life in the appropriate
place.

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Right.
You know, it's, it's funny, and

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I know I've used this analogy on
here before, but as a land

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surveyor, one of the things we,
I remember studying and when I

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was in college a lot was what
was called latitudes and

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departures, right?
And so basically it's kind of a

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rule, right?
Which is OK, if you're off a,

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you know, a second of a degree,
well, you're not going to see it

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in, in, you know, a 10th of a
foot, you're not going to really

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see it in half a foot.
You probably really wouldn't see

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it in like, I don't know, 500
feet, but you start stretching

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that out over a mile or a couple
of miles.

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Well, now all the sudden you are
a long ways off your target,

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right?
And so I couldn't agree with you

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more that if you know where
you're starting from and you get

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that right, then everything can
flow from there.

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And Joseph Smith said something
similar, right?

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It's easier to go right if you
start right.

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And I think that that's, that's
hugely important.

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So take it away, man.
OK, so let's start way, way back

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in the beginning 1830s.
And here's Joseph Smith.

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The church has just been
organized and one of the first

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commandments he gives or the
Lord gives him is to start

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retranslating the Bible.
Sidney Rigdon gets converted

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during this time, and he he's
named his, you know, translator.

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He's going to help him.
So they start going through the

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Bible and Joseph receives the
revelation, which today we know

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is Moses, Book of Moses and the
Pearl of Great Price.

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And as they start moving through
this book of Moses, they come to

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a man named Enoch in the book of
Moses, Moses chapter 6, Chapter

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7.
And now from a Mormon's

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perspective, looking backwards,
we know that Enoch was very

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involved with this idea of all
things in common, you know.

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And so here you have Sidney
Rigdon.

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I want to start out with him.
So he is a Baptist preacher

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before he's a Mormon.
He follows after the teachings

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of of the Campbellites, but he
separates from the Campbellites

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because they well, the
Campbell's just real short

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because this is just actually
kind of important.

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The Campbell, I can't remember
his name, but somebody Campbell.

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He was trying to do a
restoration of the New Testament

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church.
Sidney Rigdon felt very strongly

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that there should have there
should be this this communal

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organization like what was
contained in Acts chapter 4,

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where it says that the disciples
had all things in common.

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It says that it says neither was
there any among them that lacked

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for as many as were possessors
of lands or houses sold them and

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brought the prices of the things
that were sold and laid them at

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the apostles feet.
So there's this the beginnings

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are in is in the New Testament.
Like most of the restoration

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things they start in the Bible
when the prophet begins to ask

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questions.
Well, what's interesting is here

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you have Sidney Rigdon who
really believed in this.

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This is about basically the only
place in the New Testament that

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really mentions this.
There's one one place in the Old

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Testament that we'll talk about
a little later.

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But so here he starts his
communal family.

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Sydney Rigton does before he's a
member of the church.

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And then he meets the the the
missionaries and that he reads

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the Book of Mormon.
He gets converted.

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He's a great spokesperson and
Joseph puts him right to work.

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Well, they come across this
Enoch, and there's a common

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phrase between Acts and Enoch in
acts it says, and the multitude

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of them that believed were of
one heart and one soul.

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Now what it says about Enoch and
his people in Moses 718 And the

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Lord called his people Zion
because they were of one heart

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and one mind and dwelt in
righteousness, and there was no

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poor among them.
So this, I'm just imagining this

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is the book of David.
So take it whatever it means.

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I'm imagining that Sidney Rigdon
goes, hey, there's something in

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common here. 1 heart, one mind,
one heart, one soul.

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And Enoch was able to get the
Lord to come and dwell with

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them.
And the city of Enoch was taken

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up and was not.
So this is important.

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Right.
And so I'm no doubt him and

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Jezeph had this conversation.
Now this is like December of

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1830.
Jezeph receives a revelation

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section 37, and the Lord tells
him to cease translating.

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Don't translate the Bible
anymore.

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Gather to the Ohio, it says.
And then in January there was he

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receives another revelation,
Section 38, which says gather to

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the Ohio and there I will reveal
unto you my law.

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So, so there's this purpose.
And he also says he'll endow

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them with power from on high.
But, and so that's where we

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start tying this into the temple
a little bit more.

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But so here in January they
received this revelation.

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February 4th, they make it to
Kirtland.

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On Kirtland there is a group of
people living on.

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And I think this may have been
people that knew Sydney Rickton

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from before, but there's a group
of people down there that is in

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the John Witmer history in the
book or in the Joel Smith papers

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mentions this.
And it says that on the Isaac

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Morley farm, they lived as a
communal family there.

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And also another one in Mayfield
that did the same thing.

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There's about 100 people that
were living communally and based

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solely off those few verses in
Acts chapter 4, they were living

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it and they were doing their
best.

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But John Whitmer says something
interesting because he said he

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says prophet and Sidney Rigdon
arrives at Kirtland to the joy

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and satisfaction of the Saints.
The disciples there had all

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things common and we're going to
destruction very fast as to

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temporal things.
And he says the reason why is

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because they believe from the
Scripture that what belonged to

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one man belonged to another, and
they would take each other's

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clothes and property and use it
without leave, which brought on

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confusion and disappointments
for they did not understand the

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Scripture.
Joseph lived here a few days and

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the word of the Lord came
saying, so he'd been there for

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five days.
And he gathers the elders

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together and he received
Stockton Covenant, Section 42.

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This is the law.
So there you have the context of

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the history leading up to how
Joseph asked these questions.

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Why?
How do we do this properly?

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Because they're seeing this
being done.

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They're having this question,
but it's just a mess.

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We even have another story in
Kirtland of one of the brethren

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had a meeting, if I remember the
story right, I don't have it in

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my notes.
And one of these men came that

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believed this this communal
living and came and took his

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watch right off of him.
And then and then the brother

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was fairly concerned and I guess
went and talked to him a few

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days later and said, hey, I, you
took my watch because he

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believed all things were in
common.

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And this brother says, yeah,
well, I sold it so.

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Yeah, I know.
You know, I'm not an expert on

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the on it, but I don't think
it's supposed to go that way,

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right.
Like it.

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And, and you know, I'm, I'm also
glad we're having this because

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so often people look at the law
of consecration and you know,

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you, you get in the United Order
and that sort of stuff.

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And they, it gets presented
almost like, Oh, well, it's just

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socialism with a religious bent,
right?

224
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,440
But I would say be very careful
of flirting with that because

225
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,160
that is not what this is, right?
And I think that'll get pointed

226
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,000
out later on, but.
Well, we're going to talk about

227
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:40,760
that right now because this is
the beginning words in DNC 42

228
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,720
verse 30, where it first starts
talking about this.

229
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,400
Behold, this is DNC 4230, and
behold, thou wilt remember the

230
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,600
poor and consecrate of thy
properties for their support,

231
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:59,000
that which thou hast to impart
unto them with a covenant and a

232
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,200
deed that cannot be broken.
That's the first verse.

233
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,040
So you already have this being
set up as the purpose is to take

234
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,000
care of the poor and people are
going to consecrate of their

235
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,400
properties in this this way.
But there's a covenant and a

236
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,920
deed which cannot be broken.
And I believe the wording is

237
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,720
such that that goes both ways
right now.

238
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,400
Maybe in the beginning they
didn't understand this because

239
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:25,760
they had a lot of learning to
do.

240
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,800
It wasn't always this way, but
they started this way.

241
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,240
So the Lord reveals this
important revelation.

242
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,840
And there's several verses which
I just want to read scriptures,

243
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,280
but there's several verses here
where it starts to lay out how

244
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,920
this is to be done.
You know, you're supposed to

245
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,000
take the things you own, present
them to the Bishop and the

246
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,520
Bishop, you know, you make this
official consecration.

247
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,480
The Bishop takes it, writes it
all down, and then in most cases

248
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,640
gives you back what you
consecrated.

249
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,320
And I mean, we're talking, we
have consecration records of

250
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,640
right down to tools and shoes
and, you know, not just

251
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,560
property, but everything they
owned, right?

252
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,400
But it was mostly just given
right back as a stewardship, but

253
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,600
with a covenant and a deed which
cannot be broken, which is the

254
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,560
way it was supposed to be.
Interesting.

255
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,800
Did you ever in in any of the
records you've seen, did you

256
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,400
ever see any of those deeds or
those covenants?

257
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,160
I didn't see them with my eyes,
but I know that they're in the

258
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,800
Joseph Smith Papers project
because some of the podcasts I

259
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,560
listened to, which there's a
really great one, and maybe if

260
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,160
you don't mind, I'll call it out
here.

261
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,400
Because it's go ahead.
Yeah, No, absolutely.

262
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:46,040
Church History Matters podcast.
They have like a four part

263
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,560
series on the law of
consecration and they're they're

264
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,480
using it.
The history's really good.

265
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,360
They they use it to kind of
justify the church's position

266
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,000
today, which might be, you know,
offensive to some, but but

267
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,840
nonetheless, the history they
give is really good.

268
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,640
So they talk about these deeds
being in the jealous of papers

269
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,800
where you can see a record kept
of this, this thing that

270
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,200
happened.
Now I want to keep talking about

271
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,520
this covenant indeed, because
there's something else that

272
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,920
happens.
So I mentioned Isaac Morley and

273
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:19,800
his farm.
He had communal living on his

274
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,520
farm.
Well, he, after Joseph reveals

275
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,480
this revelation, if I'm
remembering the story, he kind

276
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,720
of gets a little disaffected at
some point and he wants his farm

277
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,120
back.
But he has all these people

278
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,000
living like a communal family on
this farm and he just kicks them

279
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,760
off and then proceeds to fine
them for damages they did while

280
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,360
improving his farm.
So you immediately start to see

281
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,360
that Joseph, I'm sure, is
sitting here going, OK, how do

282
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:57,200
we how do we do this so that
that everyone's rights are being

283
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:03,680
respected because people are
consecrating and then now they

284
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,319
can take back their
consecration.

285
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,040
Can they?
You know, you're a Mormon or

286
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:14,560
you're an American history buff.
You know that that property

287
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,359
rights and property ownership
was a huge deal after the,

288
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,440
especially after the beginning
of our country.

289
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:28,400
Absolutely, Absolutely.
That was the thing that really

290
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,800
started to separate America from
the rest of the world, right?

291
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,560
Because the rest of the world,
even today to a certain degree,

292
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,560
is still involved in a lot of
serfdom in one form or another,

293
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,960
right?
Property ownership isn't

294
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,320
necessarily a big thing in the
UK or in your anywhere in

295
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,040
Europe, right?
Because it's it's been in the

296
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,680
hands of what were Lords for
centuries and then it gets

297
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,720
bequeathed through deed later
down.

298
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,440
But also, if it's your land and
it can't be taken away, that

299
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,040
gives you a sense of stability
that the rest of the world just

300
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,640
didn't offer.
It was instrumental in making

301
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,160
America what it is today.
Yeah.

302
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,800
And so.
So.

303
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,920
With that in in mind, going
forward here, you know, they're

304
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,920
talking about consecrating their
properties, not just their their

305
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,800
tools and their things.
But really you're talking about

306
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,800
an agrarian society here after
the War of Independence.

307
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,400
You're not that.
You're not that long.

308
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,240
No.
And this is mostly an agrarian

309
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,520
society.
Their land is their life.

310
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,200
This is where they grow their
food, everything.

311
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,280
They are subsistence farmers,
right?

312
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,320
I mean.
That's right.

313
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,680
You know, until consecration
comes around for a lot of these

314
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,360
people, the goal was, is that
you got enough of everything to

315
00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:50,040
feed your family through the
winter.

316
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,160
And then if you had a good
harvest, you had some that then

317
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,360
you could take to market, right?
But you were feeding yourself

318
00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:59,920
and your family 1st and taking
the excess to sell at market.

319
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,400
And so it's got to be
problematic, right?

320
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,720
And we'll use Isaac Morley as an
example, as you just said,

321
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,400
because Morley makes this
commitment that, hey, I'm going

322
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,040
to do this, right?
So you probably have other

323
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,600
subsistence farmers that have
now been allotted a piece of

324
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:24,480
ground through the system, and
they are literally dependent

325
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,960
upon that land to eat and live
on.

326
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,560
And now that's gone.
And so now you've increased the

327
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,960
number of poor, right?
You haven't necessarily

328
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,160
decreased it.
So yeah, it would.

329
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,320
It would have had to have broke
Joseph's heart to see it go down

330
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,800
that way.
Right.

331
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:48,080
And so you have this, this very
clear revelation that once those

332
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:53,360
properties are consecrated to
the church, verse 32, they

333
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:57,480
cannot be taken from the church.
So they're, they're given there.

334
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:02,160
Now there's a stewardship that's
appointed back and that

335
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:08,000
stewardship becomes in essence,
deeded to you based on these

336
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,240
these revelations.
There's several of them that

337
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,920
they received in the next few
years.

338
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,960
To kind of clarify this, I'm I'm
reminded of a story.

339
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,040
If I can remember the details of
Lehman Copley, he was he's

340
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,440
probably not as well known for
this story as he is in the pro

341
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,240
polygamy arguments because he
said that he he had some

342
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,200
evidence of it.
But but anyway, he's here at

343
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,760
this time.
Well, he gets disaffected with

344
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,200
the church and leads, but he
wants his property back.

345
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:43,000
But the agreement that they come
to is the part that he

346
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,320
consecrated to the church is the
churches, but the part that was

347
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,960
deeded back as a stewardship to
him, that's his.

348
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,920
And there's a revelation and I,
I, I probably have it here, but,

349
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,840
but essentially I remember the
context of it, which is that's

350
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,480
his.
And nobody can take it away from

351
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:01,320
you.
Right.

352
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,880
So one of the questions that I
had in relation to this is so

353
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,080
you have this property, it's
been consecrated to the church.

354
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:14,600
It's the church has taken part
of it perhaps for the benefit of

355
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,320
others.
If you have a surplus and then

356
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,840
you have the part that yours for
Ian based on the word of the

357
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,280
Lord.
The reason you would do this is

358
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:28,480
because it becomes an eternal
inheritance to you because

359
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,640
you've turned it over.
You've recognized the true

360
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,400
master of the property.
And I really think this was a

361
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,560
profound idea to the people of
the day because, you know, we're

362
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,840
going to turn our property over,
the Bishop's going to give it

363
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,680
back, but we will get this
forever.

364
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,440
This is our eternal inheritance.
Like Israel, the land of Israel

365
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:54,640
was to the Hebrews, you know,
and then this earth, everything

366
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,880
in the earth is the Lord's.
And we're getting to become an

367
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:04,080
heir with Jesus Christ in this.
And there's, there's something

368
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,240
deeper that's going on here.
The Lord is trying to use these

369
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,760
temporal things to help us
understand a spiritual nature of

370
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,760
it.
So we can keep that in mind as

371
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:17,920
we keep going through the
history.

372
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:24,600
Because really it's, it's about
overcoming, you know, greed and

373
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,720
a material possessionism.
This is taking care of the poor

374
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,800
and recognizing the needs for
these these properties to go

375
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,800
where they're needed.
You know, and it's we're going

376
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,160
to talk about surplus because
something very interesting

377
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,160
starts to happen here.
The loft consecration has been

378
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:48,320
established, this order, people
in Kirtland are doing it, but

379
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,160
there's still some, there's
still some problems that keep

380
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,240
coming up.
Well, the Lord tells them to

381
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:59,960
build the temple and they push
forward.

382
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:03,480
And we all know the story.
The Kirtland Temple was the most

383
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,280
expensive building ever built by
the poorest people.

384
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,480
You.
Know and and all this this

385
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:15,360
magnificent story well, what
happens is in order to build the

386
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:19,440
Kirtland temple, they go into
massive debt, right, because

387
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,560
it's it's all about getting it
done and this is this is good

388
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,200
but it's you know good debt in
one sense because they're

389
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,960
they're pushing forward they get
this endowment of power, which

390
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,920
was promised to section 38 along
with this and then that's when

391
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,960
the problems begin to happen.
As we know the history the

392
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:45,120
Kirtland safety Society has
started as a type of a bank or

393
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:49,600
anti bank based on the history,
but it's it's kept in mind of

394
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,960
this law of consecration.
It's this is how the church is

395
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,400
going to repay this debt.
This is how the Saints are going

396
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,920
to come to prosperity.
And it falls apart.

397
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,880
And there's a national banking
collapse in in the United States

398
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,120
around that time.
I think they say somewhere

399
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,640
around like maybe 40% of the
banks in America closed.

400
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,160
Absolutely.
This was not something and and

401
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,400
I'm glad you brought this up
because I think this is

402
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,240
important, right?
Because I have heard this spun

403
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,640
as a way of beating up on Joseph
Smith.

404
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,000
It's often painted as, you know,
gosh, how could Joseph be a

405
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,600
prophet, right?
Because he let all these people

406
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,800
into this, this, you know, the
Kirtland Safety Society.

407
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,200
And the next thing you know,
there's, you know, everybody's

408
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,160
poor again, because everyone
lost a lot of money, right?

409
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,160
But it's important to realize
that this was a national crisis.

410
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,960
This was not, this was not
something that was isolated just

411
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:55,360
to the Kirtland Safety Society.
You just like you said, 40% of

412
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:58,200
all banks were failing in this
moment, right?

413
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,320
And the thing that we know about
economy is that it kind of works

414
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,200
like physics or biology, kind of
both, right?

415
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,760
Is that with with an economy in
especially within a capitalistic

416
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,960
economy, everybody gets exposed,
right?

417
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,280
There is an idea of contagion,
right?

418
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,000
And a kind of a domino effect if
because banks did business all

419
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,840
the time, still do money back
and forth to each other.

420
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,080
And so when one goes down, it
doesn't take long before

421
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,160
everybody feels it.
And then the, the other thing

422
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,240
I'll say is that, you know,
there were some pretty shady

423
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,280
practices going on with, with
money supply and those sorts of

424
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,960
things.
So to put this on Joseph's

425
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,160
shoulders, I don't think holds
water whatsoever.

426
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,640
I think you are dealing with
with a national crisis, not just

427
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,240
a crisis in Kirtland, right?
And, and the proof of that is

428
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,360
really, if you're going to put
this on anybody's shoulders, you

429
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:56,160
can put it on Andrew Jackson's
shoulders.

430
00:25:56,360 --> 00:26:00,680
Yes, because he dissolved the
Bank of America, which may have

431
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,000
been the right thing to do, but
it created this collapse.

432
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,800
And, you know, back then, it
wasn't like it is today.

433
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,200
Today, we have one bank over
that's partnered with America,

434
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,600
the Federal Reserve.
We all use Federal Reserve

435
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,040
Notes.
Back then, every bank had their

436
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,120
own notes.
Yep.

437
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,200
And so the Kirtland Safety
Society notes which the reason

438
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,680
they called it the Anti Bank is
because the state of Ohio would

439
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,640
not grant them a charter.
Right.

440
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,800
So they had to come up with a, a
way around that, but they had

441
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,880
their own notes and there was
several things that happened to

442
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,440
at this time.
So the banks around them are

443
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,480
failing.
One thing that I would say

444
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,040
Prophet Joseph told the people,
hey, if we do this and we do it

445
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,880
faithfully, the Lord will bless
us and this will will be

446
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,600
successful.
Well, there was some of the

447
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:59,080
major investors that were
supposed to pay in the bank to

448
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,360
make it happen.
They were late on their

449
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:02,920
payments.
They weren't paying.

450
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,680
The prophet was putting more of
his own money into it.

451
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,080
And then there was antagonists
who hated the church that were

452
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,840
just, I think the next town
over.

453
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,360
And I can't remember the man's
name, but he came over and he

454
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:22,560
started buying up Kirtland
safety notes and then did a run

455
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,560
on the bank a couple of times.
Like, and this is, you know,

456
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,000
what's the the Christmas show
with James Stewart?

457
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,760
A wonderful life.
It's a wonderful life.

458
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,200
Just like they did the run on
the bank there, so they did this

459
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,080
run on the bank with the
Kirtland Safety Society just to

460
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,800
downfall it.
And so there was too many

461
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,000
factors going on for this thing
to be successful.

462
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,360
Well, and even sabotage, right,
I hadn't heard that right.

463
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,880
The sabotage, that's that's
something.

464
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,920
And before, before somebody
comes at me with, well, gosh,

465
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,800
Joseph Smith was supposed to be
a prophet.

466
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,800
Why didn't you, you know, see
that coming?

467
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,280
Just relax, right?
There's been a lot of guys in

468
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,160
the scriptures who've been duped
by other people, right?

469
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,400
Right.
And as we know, the promises of

470
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,160
God are almost always
accompanied by faithful

471
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,160
adherence to His commandments.
Absolutely.

472
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:22,240
So anyway, this happens now,
certain safety society crashes.

473
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,720
Joseph and the other faithful
brethren are being, you know,

474
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,720
basically threatened for their
lives, and the faithful of them

475
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,400
go to the West because of a
revelation to far West and

476
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,960
Missouri far West in
Independence.

477
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,160
Well, Joseph now has had a whole
bunch of experience that he

478
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,920
didn't have before, and he goes
to the Lord and says, OK, how,

479
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,480
how are we supposed to do this?
Because the Lord's now commanded

480
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,680
them to build a new temple in
Far West and in Independence and

481
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,400
told them they were not supposed
to go into debt to do this,

482
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,520
which tricky.
Well, this is like, yeah, well,

483
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,400
I mean, they just did this
temple and they couldn't do it

484
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,240
without going into debt.
So now how are they supposed to

485
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:13,360
do this?
And he asked the Lord and the

486
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,800
Lord gives him Section 119 in
1838.

487
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,800
Now suspend several years.
They've been trying this and

488
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,200
it's just interesting because in
the in the LDS Church, they say

489
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,960
in the heading for this
revelation, this is where the

490
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,680
law of consecration was done
away with because of

491
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,040
unfaithfulness and the law of
tithing replaced it.

492
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,120
But I just say let's read the
revelation and see what the Lord

493
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,640
really says, because as he's
saying, consecrations done away

494
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:51,080
with, here's it's a short
revelation, Section 119 Barely.

495
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,280
Thus sayeth the Lord.
I require all their surplus

496
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,560
property to be put in the hands
of the Bishop of my church in

497
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,680
Zion, for the building of mine
house, and for the laying of the

498
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,880
foundation of Zion, and for the
priesthood, and for the deaths

499
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,480
of the presidency of my church.
And this shall be the beginning

500
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,680
of the tithing of my people.
And after that, those who have

501
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,800
thus been tithed shall pay 110th
of all their interest annually,

502
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,200
and this shall be a standing law
unto them forever, for my holy

503
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,160
priesthood, saith the Lord.
And then it, it goes on a little

504
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,440
bit more, just a few more
verses.

505
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,720
But but oh, I didn't want to,
didn't want to leave this out.

506
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,920
And I say unto you, If my people
observe not this law, to keep it

507
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,800
holy, and by this law sanctify
the land of Zion unto me, that

508
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,320
my statutes and my judgments may
be kept thereon, that it might

509
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,040
be most holy.
Behold, verily I say unto you,

510
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,640
It shall not be a land of Zion
unto you, and this shall be an

511
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:58,320
example unto all the stakes of
Zion, even sowing it so.

512
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,400
This is the law of tithing,
Revelation.

513
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,040
But it doesn't say Do away with
consecration and do tithing

514
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,240
only.
It says you're still required to

515
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,240
put all your surplus property in
the hands of the Bishop, just

516
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,000
like before.
Yeah, yeah.

517
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,440
No, it it's.
Almost the same.

518
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,040
Yeah, it it doesn't, it doesn't
rescind as you showed earlier,

519
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,240
where, where the the command
was.

520
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,760
You know, you're going to have
your plot of land.

521
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,200
You'll you'll take what you need
for yourself and then the

522
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,600
surplus goes back to the Bishop,
right.

523
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,520
And then, and then this next
one, it goes out of its way, the

524
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,200
Lord goes out of his way to
mention you still got to do this

525
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,440
thing with the surplus, right?
This, this is still in force.

526
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:44,880
And then there is tithing,
right?

527
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:50,880
And so to, to say that, oh, now
we stop you, you know, stop law

528
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,000
of consecration, United Order
kind of stuff.

529
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,520
And we're just going to tithing.
It's kind of a stretch.

530
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,280
It's not.
It's not scriptural.

531
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,800
Right.
And so the, you know, and, and

532
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,360
not to bash all my friends in
the church, because I have a lot

533
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:11,400
of them, but just paying tithing
on 10% of your income is not

534
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,040
fulfilling the commandment the
Lord gave.

535
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,680
And we can go into why that's a
problem because there's, there's

536
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,920
this, you know, when we go into
the temple, we, we make this

537
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,800
covenant, which we're going to
talk about.

538
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,760
And it has more to do with than
just saying say, well, 90% of

539
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,000
everything I make is mine and
10% is the Lord's.

540
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,280
That's not what he's saying he
wants us to do.

541
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,640
He wants us to recognize that
everything we have we should use

542
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,840
for this purpose.
So, but the surplus property

543
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,200
specifically.
So if we have extra property

544
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,280
that and the way that they
understood this at the time was

545
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:55,600
property that wasn't being used.
If you're in an agrarian society

546
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,400
and your land is how you feed
your family and make your

547
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:06,240
living, and somebody has land
that isn't being used, then why

548
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,160
not give it to somebody so that
they can use it and the poor can

549
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,960
be taken care of as well.
So you see that this is real

550
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,000
wisdom now.
Dave, can I point out now I, I'm

551
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,200
sorry, I don't want to be real
you, but something just hit me.

552
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,560
Excuse me.
I, I want to point this out

553
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,760
because I find this interesting.
The Lord and his program is

554
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,600
like, OK, how do we take care of
the poor?

555
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,800
Well, if there's excess lands to
be had, let's put people on land

556
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,240
that land to cultivate it and
they can start providing for

557
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,560
themselves and maybe even extra
to help out someone else who's

558
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,680
poor.
If we go back and we look in, in

559
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,360
Old Testament times, especially
when Israel starts getting into

560
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,520
the worship of ball, one of the
things that's interesting about

561
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,720
offerings that would be made to
ball is that you would turn your

562
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,400
fields back.
Ferrell, you just let it go,

563
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,480
right?
That was the offering that was

564
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:10,000
supposed to initiate this, this
sacrifice to Ball that he would

565
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,199
then bless your other crops with
more, right?

566
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,639
And so I find it very
interesting that there there is

567
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:21,840
this thread that seems to be
running between what God wants

568
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,480
and then Lucifer decides he's
going to come along and he's

569
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,520
going to put a twist on it,
right?

570
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,520
Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
No, that's a great story.

571
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,000
And and let's let's remember
that because this is in direct

572
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,760
opposition to what we're told in
the temple.

573
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,920
And we'll talk about this when
we kind of get through the

574
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,679
history because there's
something very important with

575
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:46,280
that story.
So that's that's a great story.

576
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:52,040
So, OK, so back into the
history.

577
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,679
So they start doing this and we
can talk about if we want to.

578
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,920
I know you've done other
podcasts on tithing, and I'm not

579
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:02,680
going to tell people what their
tithing should be, but this is

580
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,960
an interesting phrase because we
always hear it the other way.

581
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,800
At least I always have.
We're supposed to be tied of our

582
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:14,640
increase, but is that phrase in
the scriptures?

583
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,560
Because I couldn't find it.
Now maybe it is and somebody if,

584
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,360
if it is, then we can be
corrected.

585
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,280
But I couldn't find it said.
Exactly like that.

586
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,920
OK, what did?
You so this this is this one

587
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,680
right here in verse 4 is the
main one that I found those have

588
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,760
been tied shall pay 110th of all
their interest annually and they

589
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,600
they take the word interest and
they say that means increase.

590
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,720
So that means income and we can
go into all the details of what

591
00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:44,800
they understood it to mean,
which is different.

592
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,560
OK.
They so the way that it was back

593
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,840
then, at least based on what
I've done in the last week

594
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:58,200
studying this because it's very
interesting is they would they

595
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,120
would do like a profit and loss.
So you for so you would like

596
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,200
with your business and you take
all your debts and you take all

597
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,600
your income and you'd compare
the two.

598
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,600
You chop off your debt, then you
would have your profit.

599
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,080
And then in the early days of
the country, they had the

600
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,600
interest on your profit, which
was the interest rates were

601
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,040
pretty stable at 6%.
Of course, they didn't have like

602
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,560
the Federal Reserve to manage
it.

603
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,160
Everyone just knew.
So of that 6% that was

604
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,920
considered like your, that was
considered your interest of what

605
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,400
you were worth.
Not necessarily your profit, but

606
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,280
but the interest on the profit.
Yeah, of what you were worth.

607
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:47,640
Yep.
So your SO 10, a tenth of your

608
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,200
interest annually, so 6% of your
profit.

609
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:54,960
And then they tied that part.
So you're talking a very little

610
00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,240
amount later, later.
They they did clarify and I

611
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:03,560
think Coram of the 12th put out
a letter saying this is probably

612
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:09,120
better to be 110th of your
income, especially as they start

613
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,400
shifting from an agrarian
society to, you know, where

614
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,000
money becomes much more common.
I mean you by the time Brigham

615
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,920
comes around, Joseph is killed,
then money becomes the source

616
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,000
and they have people doing all
kinds of jobs for money to buy

617
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,840
things from farmers.
And this is where the capitalist

618
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,720
society or there's another word
for the development.

619
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:39,040
The Anyway, it's something to do
with the word just escapes me.

620
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,480
Production society, like like
where you have people in

621
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,360
factories and all this.
This starts to come about,

622
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,960
especially in England.
Industrial revolution.

623
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,720
There we go.
Yeah, the industrial revolution

624
00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:56,080
starts to happen.
Now things shift from an

625
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,240
agrarian society to a money
based society.

626
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,360
Gotcha.
And that's when the change is

627
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,280
more or less kind of enforced.
OK.

628
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,160
This really needs to be 10% of
your of your income or your

629
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,560
increase on your income.
OK.

630
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,160
So that's kind of, I thought
that was a little interesting

631
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,080
bit of history how that
transformed and it has to do

632
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,040
with the dynamics of the day.
Let let me ask you this, is

633
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,800
there anything that you can look
at and point to to see that

634
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:28,080
maybe the Lord changes that to
10% of your, your increase I

635
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,720
guess, or it does it stay right
there?

636
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,840
Well, in Deuteronomy it says
that the farmers when they bring

637
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,640
in their grain, should pay,
should give 110th of all their

638
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,120
seed.
OK.

639
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,240
And that that's to be used to
feed the.

640
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:48,160
Poor.
So OK, so there is scriptural

641
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,000
precedent.
For there is some scriptural

642
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,400
preference, I mean it's it's
about grain and it makes perfect

643
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,280
sense 'cause you're actually
tithing food.

644
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,720
But in our modern day world, 10%
of your income is not.

645
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,600
AI would say it's not an
inappropriate way to look at it.

646
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:04,920
Right.
Although you could look at it

647
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,320
historically and say that's not
exactly what he meant.

648
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,640
But then again, you know,
you're, you're paying your

649
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,560
tithing.
Now, one thing that I that I

650
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,760
kind of have a little Burr under
my saddle is I believe that that

651
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,600
the tithing should be done by
our conscience as well.

652
00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:26,240
Like we know what we made.
I, I have a little bit of a

653
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:31,320
problem with a tithing
settlement where you'd go in and

654
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,280
if you know, if it's not deemed
that you paid enough, then your

655
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,400
recommend will be gained.
I just growing up in a

656
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,120
fundamental society that that
seems a little strange to me.

657
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,720
Now others in the church that
might be perfectly normal and

658
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:46,800
that's OK for them, but for me,
I would just be very

659
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,280
uncomfortable with that.
I would just as soon pay tithing

660
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,840
on, you know, I want to be
honest, I want to pay an honest

661
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,280
tithe and that's between me and
the Lord as far as I'm

662
00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:01,720
concerned, so.
But the point of going into all

663
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:04,920
this tithing is tithing does not
take away from the law of

664
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,840
consecration.
This is this is perhaps another

665
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,080
way for the temporal salvation
of the Church.

666
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,720
It says right here to build the
temple.

667
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,840
The temple should be built upon
the tithings of the people and

668
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,400
for the debts of the presidency
of my Church.

669
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,120
And even back in Section 42, it
mentions that the surplus

670
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,640
property and and the money that
the church gathers should be for

671
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,480
the building of houses of
worship and the purchasing of

672
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,320
lands for the church.
And, and all this as the High

673
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,760
council and the Bishop shall
come together.

674
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,880
Gotcha.
So, so the church has the need

675
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,640
for money, has a need for this
ability to bless the poor and,

676
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,880
and provide things for its
members like meeting houses.

677
00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:53,800
And that that needs to be done
as a separate organization from

678
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,560
the people.
Like fundamentalists everywhere

679
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,640
have had this, this problem
where we will build our meeting

680
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,400
houses and they'll be in the
name of the person's house that

681
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,480
they're holding in, right.
You know, it's and then there

682
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,520
gets to be a problem because
it's not, it's understood that

683
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,440
if the church owns it, then the
the members of the church are

684
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,360
really the owners, right.
And this is still live in most

685
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,600
of your churches today.
This is kind of how we

686
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,040
understand it.
And so to be clean as a church,

687
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,160
it would be good to have a
separation.

688
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:30,040
You don't want somebody owning
the temple As for instance as a

689
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,360
personal person.
It would be better for it to be

690
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,720
in a separate organization.
And, and I've heard a lot of

691
00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:37,680
fundamentalists take Hebrew J
Grant to task over that because

692
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,080
if I'm not mistaken, the, I
believe at one point the Temple

693
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,760
was actually in his name right
when he was, when he was doing

694
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,240
some financing stuff.
Right now, I think it was, it

695
00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:50,440
was deeded back.
I want to be clear about that.

696
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,200
I don't, I don't think he was
trying to, you know, take the

697
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:58,400
temple for himself necessarily.
However, we, we tend to beat him

698
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,360
up over that, right?
So if we're going to, if we're

699
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,040
going to swing on him on that
right.

700
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,800
And look, I want to be clear,
there's a lot you can swing on

701
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,600
Hebrew J Grant for, right?
Like I, I've often said, one day

702
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,040
I'll write the five stages of
becoming a fundamentalist.

703
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,160
And you know, one of those is
that first you're going to have

704
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,000
a white hot seething hate for
Wilford Woodruff that will fade

705
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,760
as you do more research, but
then you'll get to Hebrew J

706
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,320
Grant and he'll fill that spot
for you.

707
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,440
So I'm, I'm, I'm perfectly, I, I
get it right.

708
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,640
But if we're going to, if we're
going to swing on him for that,

709
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,240
we better make sure our own
house is in order before we do

710
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:35,840
that.
And also understand that, you

711
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,400
know, this, I'm going to be in
defense of Brother Grant here,

712
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:40,600
remember?
And we're going to talk about

713
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,480
this because this ties into it.
You know, the Edmunds Tucker Act

714
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,000
disincorporated the church.
Yep.

715
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,160
And so they put a lot of things
in personal people's names out

716
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,200
of fear that the government
would take them.

717
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,800
So there's a possibility, and
I'm not saying this the reason,

718
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,480
there's a possibility that that
was carried over and that's why

719
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,000
it was that way.
So there's a little, you know,

720
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,960
swing in his defense.
But but I also don't have a lot

721
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,440
of confidence in EN people.
J Grantee.

722
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,880
OK, so let's move into the
pioneer period.

723
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,960
OK, because the consecration we
know was carried through, we'll

724
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,560
just say into Nauvoo.
We have in the Joel Smith Papers

725
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:28,680
project, we do have people still
consecrating things during

726
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,160
Nauvoo, although perhaps it
wasn't made as big a deal.

727
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,520
It was kind of, you know,
tithing became more standardized

728
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,480
and they built the Nauvoo temple
off the tithes and the

729
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,160
consecrations of the people.
But it was still happening.

730
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:43,600
People are still going into the
Bishop.

731
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,240
They were still consecrating of
some of their their things and

732
00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:52,880
then jealous killed and the
Saints go across the plains.

733
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:56,840
OK, before we go there, you did
find record where people were

734
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,800
still consecrating in Nauvoo.
Yeah, there's there's records,

735
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,320
the Bishop, some of the bishops
records.

736
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,360
Now again, this comes from
scholars that I was listening to

737
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,160
where they said we found this in
the Joel Smith Papers project.

738
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,920
It would be great to dive in and
see some of these.

739
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,800
No, I, I, I don't have a reason
to disbelieve them.

740
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,280
It's just, I've kind of wondered
about that from time to time

741
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,320
because we don't hear about a
lot of consecration and United

742
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,480
Order during the Nauvoo period.
And when when me and my family

743
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,160
went to Nauvoo here just a few
years back, I asked somebody

744
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,560
about that, one of the
missionaries that staffed.

745
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,600
The place.
And they couldn't, they didn't

746
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,440
know anything about it if that
happened or did not.

747
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,000
So I was just curious.
That was my own.

748
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:45,200
Editor I I think that that's
probably less common, but there

749
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,680
were still people who were
reading the, the book of

750
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,440
commandments and they still have
access to this and we're

751
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,560
probably trying to comply.
That's the way I took it.

752
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,880
It wasn't, it wasn't a great
like a huge push in Nauvoo, but

753
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,760
it was still there.
And they, and from the podcast

754
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,920
that I was listening to, they
said they found some records of,

755
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,680
of these kind of surplus
properties being turned in.

756
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,120
So.
So there was evidence, although

757
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:11,760
it might have been scarce.
Got you.

758
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,120
OK.
So they start crossing the

759
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,200
plains and now they come out to
Utah.

760
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,880
This isn't really pushed.
I mean, you know, they have

761
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,600
communal type projects.
They have, they have different

762
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,040
things now.
They're still doing temple

763
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,640
ordinances.
The loft consecration is part of

764
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,520
those.
They they build the endowment

765
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,840
house in the 1850s and they
start doing the endowments again

766
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,240
there.
And now it might be good at this

767
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:45,560
point, as far as we have any
records to read part of the

768
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,280
covenant that we make, I don't
think we're out of line to read

769
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,720
some of that.
So I've read lots of different

770
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:57,200
endowments and they're all
pretty similar in in this

771
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:05,600
specific one, OK, in that you do
consecrate yourself, your time,

772
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,720
talents, and everything with
which the Lord has blessed you

773
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,720
or with which he may bless you
for the building up of the

774
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:15,080
Kingdom of God on the earth and
for the establishment of Zion.

775
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,520
So there we have the basis for
the, the law of consecration as

776
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,680
contained in the temple.
And they would have given

777
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,040
something, if not this exact
wording, something very similar

778
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,960
throughout the Utah period.
So this was on people's minds.

779
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,960
Yep.
But it really doesn't become a

780
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:37,760
major push until the 1870s.
Brigham's starting to get older.

781
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,120
The Saints are starting to
spread out across the land.

782
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:46,960
And he he makes this kind of
proclamation.

783
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:52,720
And I think it was 1875, maybe
1874 and he before he.

784
00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:55,360
Dies.
Right, just a few years and he

785
00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:00,960
says we we need to comply with
the law of consecration is

786
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,520
contained in the Doctrine
Covenants.

787
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,840
And I think that I mean the
Saints took right to it.

788
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:09,560
And from the records that I
could find, there was something

789
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,520
like 150 United orders across
the territory.

790
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:19,760
And they varied in methodology.
Like he didn't say they all have

791
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,800
to be just like this.
They all have to be just like

792
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,720
this.
They varied based on some were

793
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,680
co-ops like Brigham City and
Provo.

794
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:32,360
They were more Co-op in nature.
And then of course, you get out

795
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,040
to the famous Orderville or
Kanab or those kind of places

796
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,400
and they were communal living.
Right.

797
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,720
There's one thing that I kind of
noticed in common is where they

798
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:45,760
were in a city and the people
were richer, they were co-ops.

799
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,600
Where the people were poorer,
they were communal living.

800
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,520
Fascinating.
And and OK, now I'm going to say

801
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,600
some stuff and you can correct
me if I'm wrong here.

802
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,960
And I know that look for
anybody's ancestors who were out

803
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:04,160
there, I'm not criticizing your
ancestors, OK?

804
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,760
I look, this is just what
happens when people have to

805
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,640
experiment with things.
And I do want to be clear that

806
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,920
there, while there is
instruction on how to

807
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:20,400
consecrate, there isn't a whole
lot of of commandments or

808
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,560
scriptures on how to live a
united order, right?

809
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,920
How you're going to institute
consecration, right?

810
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,440
You also have to understand that
it's not easy getting a message

811
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:36,600
from Kanab, Utah in the 1870s up
to Brigham to get some questions

812
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:43,080
answered.
Things take time, OK, But those

813
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,880
ones down down South there Kanab
Orderville, they do kind of tend

814
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,040
to resemble more of a of a like
like you said, a communal

815
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,360
experiment or even quasi
socialist, right.

816
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,720
And when you said that the ones
that did well were more kind of

817
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:03,560
capitalistic in nature.
And, and I, I want to point that

818
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,600
out because I'm not saying those
folks were bad.

819
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,480
They were doing the best they
could with not having a lot of

820
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,800
direction, right?
And in some ways, I think it was

821
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,360
absolutely worthwhile because we
could compare and contrast and

822
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,800
then say what worked, what
didn't and why.

823
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,640
And so I think it's important
that that we point that out that

824
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,200
that those basic principles
still seem to carry over even

825
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,760
into consecration and and United
Order.

826
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,360
Yeah.
Now in Orderville's defense, I

827
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,200
will say one thing about them
because Orderville is it's put

828
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,160
on the pedestal, right?
It is the quiz intentional

829
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,640
United Order project.
I mean, you have these people

830
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,680
that come together.
I have my own personal concerns

831
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,640
with some of the ways that they
did things, but they were

832
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,920
Orderville was successful
monetarily.

833
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,320
I mean, it was, you know, they,
I think according to my notes

834
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:07,280
here, 80 families come together
in Orderville and when they

835
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:13,120
first combine all their stuff,
they have about $21,551.00 worth

836
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:20,800
of value.
And in four years they jumped to

837
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,320
almost 70,000.
Holy cow.

838
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,400
And then in 1883 they, they're
up to over 80.

839
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,400
So, so they're, and back then in
those days they were very

840
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,840
wealthy.
They were rivaling Brigham City

841
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,600
in terms of value, monetary
value.

842
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,960
And so they were very successful
now, but these people were poor

843
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,200
when they got there, 80 poor
families come together.

844
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,800
They have a communal dining
hall.

845
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,120
They they eat all their meals
together.

846
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,840
The bishops more or less the
father of the community, which

847
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,040
which starts to infringe a
little bit upon, you know,

848
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,640
patriarchal order in my mind.
Yep.

849
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,760
Like I I'd rather have the
Fathers be the Fathers rather

850
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,680
than the Bishop be the Father.
Right.

851
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:12,200
But not to worry the you know,
the dining hall gets flooded and

852
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,480
and destroyed at some point.
So they kind of break away from

853
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,280
that.
But but you know, you have

854
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:24,000
Lorenzo Snow and he's in charge
of the Brigham City Co-op and

855
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,320
it's doing fantastic.
But they're they're looser than

856
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,560
a communal living.
They're still retain some

857
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,320
capitalistic tendencies and
they're kind of coming together

858
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,720
to bless the poor and increase
this Co-op.

859
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,960
And Lorenzo Snow's a powerhouse
behind us.

860
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,120
I mean, every, everything I
read, he is just he is an animal

861
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,000
now.
I think it's his brother.

862
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:51,160
You're asked to Snow was he was
from the South, like he lived

863
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:57,560
down the South and you're asked
to snow in 1883.

864
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:02,480
He recommended moving the wages
because the way they did wages

865
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,520
in Orderville was it was very
equal.

866
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,560
Regardless of the work you did.
Everyone got the same amount.

867
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:09,440
They just did what they did for
living.

868
00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:14,760
But he recommended removing that
and giving more freedom to

869
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,960
people.
But but they, and that just

870
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:23,640
started the process of moving
away from this extreme communal,

871
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,520
you know, order, if you will, of
order bill.

872
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:35,280
Now I, I want to make mention of
something because this is, this

873
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,960
is really interesting.
So we've heard about order Bill

874
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,840
and, and the order Bill's just
tight.

875
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,760
There was many, many others like
we're talking and we all say,

876
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,520
well, they all failed.
Well, why did they fail?

877
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,480
Right.
Because some of them failed.

878
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,640
Like I remember a story, I think
it was Joseph Young.

879
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,160
It.
Was one of the Youngs.

880
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,680
Anyway, one of Brigham Young's
sons was in Provo and they were

881
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,080
trying to establish the order
there and he voluntarily

882
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,040
withdrew from the order and
according to his quote, was I

883
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,600
left the order because there was
no order in it.

884
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:21,400
That was kind of interesting.
So you start to see that

885
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:26,160
especially in these in some of
these United orders for us being

886
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,320
start to become very successful
and the natural tendencies of

887
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,800
man start creeping in.
Gotcha.

888
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,240
And it causes problems.
And this has been consistent

889
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:40,160
throughout, well, ever since
1831 when they first tried to

890
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,520
start doing this.
It's, you know, it's not easy to

891
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,960
create a Zion community like
Enoch had, right?

892
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:53,720
Because people are.
I mean basically it comes down

893
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:55,880
to the phrase it's hard to be a
St. when you're not one.

894
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,520
Right.
And so the the United Orders

895
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,080
that we see throughout history
have continually had problems

896
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,200
because of the foibles of
mankind.

897
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:14,360
However, in Orderville's for to
not make Orderville seem so bad,

898
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:18,600
one of the main reasons why
Orderville failed was because of

899
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,280
the Edmunds Tucker Act.
Right.

900
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,240
So 'cause that disincorporated
the church.

901
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,360
Yep.
And all of these Saints down

902
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:33,200
here, they had a tannery, a
mill, the branches, they're all

903
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,520
their businesses were
essentially turned over to the

904
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,760
Bishop of the church.
Right.

905
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,280
Now the church is
disincorporated and they

906
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,800
immediately go into lawsuits.
As we know, the the church

907
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,880
starts fighting the government
to go the Supreme Court.

908
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:54,120
Once the Supreme Court rules
that this law is valid, then

909
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,720
leaders of the church go down to
Orderville and all these other

910
00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:01,520
places and say hurry, get the
stuff out of the church's name.

911
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:07,600
They're come to take it all and
all many of the orders are

912
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,680
broken up at this point because
of the government, because of

913
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,400
persecution.
What about the one in Brigham

914
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:15,520
City?
Does that one get?

915
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:20,240
Does that one get?
No, the Co-op ones seem to last

916
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:23,800
a little longer because they're
still individual owners.

917
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,680
OK, All right.
That, that was my question

918
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,560
there.
Why did they not get hit as hard

919
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,040
by that?
But that makes sense.

920
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,680
And I don't know if if you
happen to have heard it, but I

921
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:38,480
had a really good interview
with, with a guy named Randall

922
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:40,600
Edwards.
He's an attorney there in Salt

923
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:45,360
Lake.
And he had talked about polygamy

924
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:50,320
was simply the, the tool that
that the government used to beat

925
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,120
up the Saints.
But the real kind of underlying

926
00:55:54,120 --> 00:56:00,120
issues isn't polygamy, right?
It's, it's actually the fact

927
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,360
that the Saints, wherever they
went, tended to become a

928
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,760
powerhouse, right?
Because somehow Joseph was able

929
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,560
to to move people around.
He didn't have to exercise a lot

930
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,680
of strong arm tactics to get it
done.

931
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:20,200
And that scared the powers that
because how's this guy doing

932
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:21,360
this?
It's growing.

933
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,480
That's worrisome to, you know,
power, power of poor is a

934
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,960
vacuum, right?
And so you got this guy here

935
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,720
who's able to do all this.
And if people aren't reliant

936
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:36,080
upon the government and the
government doesn't feel like

937
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,680
it's the supreme law of the
land, so to speak, you could see

938
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:41,520
where where friction would
happen, right?

939
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,680
And this seems to be the case
here, right?

940
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:45,720
If they bust up the orders,
right?

941
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:49,880
And if if those orders are doing
very well, you bust those up,

942
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,680
well, you have less power now.
And there's there's more to be.

943
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,200
I absolutely believe that that
was the main motivation behind

944
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,840
the Evans Tucker Act.
Polygamy was the abhorrent thing

945
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,160
for the culture.
But as we've learned with

946
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:09,320
government, you know, one hand
does this while the other hand's

947
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,400
over here doing this and it's
the real thing.

948
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,320
It's the thing they don't want
people to think about.

949
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:20,840
Because if you have 150 or so
United orders that not all

950
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,000
successful is Orderville or
Brigham City, but but they're

951
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,680
still growing right now you're
creating this powerhouse that

952
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,400
you talk about.
I mean, the Kingdom of God is

953
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:36,520
growing not just in states
coming to Utah, but also

954
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,560
monetary means and manufacturing
capacity.

955
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,560
And they're selling to the Saint
or they're selling to The

956
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:45,200
Pioneers that are going to
California.

957
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:50,120
They're they're growing their
economy independent of Babylon.

958
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:54,320
And Babylon doesn't like that.
Well, not only that, Babylon

959
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,760
wants to get its hands on the
land and the minerals that are

960
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,200
in Utah, right?
We, we, we tend to think and,

961
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,880
and there, I want to be clear,
there was a period here where

962
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,280
there weren't, that wasn't
happening.

963
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,240
But as soon as minerals are
discovered, it's not very long.

964
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,920
I, I want to say it's right
around the 1870s.

965
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,280
I think when you start seeing
outside it, you know, companies

966
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,240
coming in going, we want to mine
those mountains, right?

967
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,120
And just like today, if you want
to get something done in

968
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,760
Washington, you don't go to your
congressman, you find a lobbyist

969
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:27,520
to go get that stuff done for
you.

970
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:32,600
And, and so that's, that's
hugely important to keep in mind

971
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:34,440
here on, on why they failed,
right?

972
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:40,680
Again, cuz, cuz I, I would
think, right, that at some point

973
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,920
communication gets out.
So if, if Brigham City

974
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,360
struggling with something, maybe
Orderville's doing it really

975
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,200
well and vice versa, right?
And so I would imagine that a

976
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,480
lot of those issues that we saw
would start to get levelled out,

977
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:55,160
right?
Everybody would start just

978
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,760
taking and borrowing from other
orders, which in my opinion was

979
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,040
the genius of letting them just
kind of go and grow on their

980
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:03,880
own.
Because you could experiment a

981
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:05,680
little bit and see what works
and what does it.

982
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,200
And then out of that, I think
you would have saw kind of an

983
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,960
equalization begin to happen in
between all of them, right?

984
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,800
When you when you start
threatening the existing power

985
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,160
structure, that's where it
becomes a problem.

986
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,720
Right.
And you, you see this happening,

987
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,320
just this very thing you're
describing with you're asked to

988
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,480
Snow, whose brother's running
Brigham City, and he starts

989
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,560
making suggestions to Orville to
make it a little less communal,

990
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:34,760
right.
And because they're they're

991
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:39,040
beginning to learn how this
process works and we can go on

992
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,720
and speculate all we want.
If the government hadn't come in

993
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,160
and broken up what was happening
because this we could be a

994
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,240
totally different place today.
Well, Dave, that's funny you

995
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,480
bring that up.
So I just did some on the fly

996
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:54,960
research real quick.
You know what $70,000 equated to

997
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:59,720
and we'll just say 1870 two $1.8
million.

998
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:06,160
That's the equivalent of $70,000
in 18721 million.

999
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:10,720
Almost 2,000,000 bucks, right?
That's not bad.

1000
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:12,120
Pretty good.
That's not bad.

1001
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,080
For eighty families.
Yeah, for 80 families that had

1002
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:18,880
started out with 20,000.
I don't know what that would

1003
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,040
have been, but it.
Was about 1/3, right?

1004
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,600
Right 1/4.
Yeah, that would have been

1005
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:30,120
$520,000 that that 20,000 that
they started with.

1006
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:32,000
So they more than doubled their
money.

1007
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,040
In four years.
In four years, right?

1008
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:37,320
And it was.
It was grown.

1009
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:42,960
Yep, absolutely.
And so, so I, and this, this

1010
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,520
leads me to something that I was
thinking about in relation to

1011
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,360
because this kind of ends the
history of United Orders.

1012
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,960
The law of consecration carries
on in the Temple, but after the

1013
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:57,200
Edmunds Tucker Act destroys a
lot of these communities, now

1014
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,800
the United Orders virtually end
in the Church.

1015
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,320
Right, but.
I was thinking about this

1016
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,160
earlier.
If you really want to understand

1017
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:12,320
fundamentalists and why we hold
so tightly to some things, study

1018
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,120
the 1880s.
What was happening.

1019
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,480
It's the golden age for many of
us.

1020
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,880
This was when the United Order
was actually being lived.

1021
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,960
Plural marriage was being lived.
The temples were being done

1022
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,360
correctly.
You know, the preaching was

1023
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,080
happening and and the whole
gospel was being lived.

1024
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,960
Resident John Taylor was doing a
fantastic job.

1025
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:36,040
He had been, you know, the
Council 50 was in operation and

1026
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:39,960
he was anointed king and priest
or prophet and priest and king.

1027
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:44,240
I think it was over the Kingdom.
And you have the closest thing

1028
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,680
we've seen nearest to us of the
church and Kingdom doing what

1029
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:53,560
it's supposed to do, you know,
And so that gets carried on.

1030
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:55,920
Now things take a turn, as we
know, in 1890.

1031
01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:00,880
And all of a sudden now starts
the downfall.

1032
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,040
The government starts getting
involved in the church.

1033
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:05,360
Church leaders start making
concessions.

1034
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:09,160
And this is, you know, obviously
very anti LDS perspective, but

1035
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:13,800
this is the one I grew up with.
And and now we start to see the

1036
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,040
downfall of the church in
relation to righteous living of

1037
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,400
the principles as contained in
the scriptures.

1038
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:26,200
And so Orderville becomes
legendary in some senses because

1039
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,440
it was like, oh, this was the
United Order live properly.

1040
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,920
And I even heard a note, and I
don't have any documentation,

1041
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:39,840
but it's just interesting that
once Orderville Falls, some of

1042
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,000
the people who loved that way of
living, they really loved it.

1043
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,040
They were doing it, had their
hearts in the right place.

1044
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:48,320
I assume they went down to
Mexico and tried to start the

1045
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,960
same thing.
I heard that or ran across that

1046
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,520
in one of my notes.
And so I thought that's

1047
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:55,880
interesting because they're
holding to it too.

1048
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,560
Yeah.
And you have these men who were

1049
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:07,280
raised in this society, John Y
Barlow's born in 1877, Joseph

1050
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:13,560
Musser and the Woolies, and you
know, Benjamin F Johnson for the

1051
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:15,520
Lebaronites.
And, and you can go through all

1052
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,120
the different groups.
These men were raised in this

1053
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:23,240
society.
And then the church falls and

1054
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:26,640
they try to hold tight to the
principles and carry that on and

1055
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,600
teach their children, which is
our fathers.

1056
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:35,400
And we're holding to this, this
thing that was that was so

1057
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,680
powerful in the 1880s and
carried now over several

1058
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:42,440
generations, which is why in
fundamentalist names

1059
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,080
understandings, lot of
consecrations almost synonymous

1060
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,840
with the United Order because we
just say, oh, it was done.

1061
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,280
We know it was done.
And this is the right way to do

1062
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:55,000
it.
And it's going to vary based on

1063
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,280
where your father's are from
somewhere from Brigham City,

1064
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:00,040
somewhere from Orderville or
knew of it.

1065
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:03,800
They're going to have different
ideas, but but there's something

1066
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,960
that could be learned through
the practical application and

1067
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:08,920
living, which is what we were
just talking about.

1068
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:12,320
If we could do this, we would
learn what things work.

1069
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,960
Now down in Colorado City, they
had the UEP.

1070
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,720
They tried to do this.
Again, the UEP had its problems,

1071
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,720
but for a lot of people who had
their hearts in the right place,

1072
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:25,480
they said it was a beautiful
system.

1073
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,160
Now, I don't think it went far
enough to preserve property

1074
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,400
rights as we've seen the outcome
from.

1075
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:36,760
So we we can learn from that a
little bit, but then we come

1076
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:40,160
down to our day.
So a lot of communal type living

1077
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:44,960
things in today's day would not
really be considered legal by

1078
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,480
the US government for tax
purposes.

1079
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:52,840
How do you tax when somebody's
giving eggs and getting, you

1080
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,680
know, something that there's no
transfer of money to the system.

1081
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:58,400
So there's nothing there to be
taxed and you're going to get

1082
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,400
into trouble for tax fraud like
somehow.

1083
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,720
So it it would be a little hard
in today's world, you'd almost

1084
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,080
have to do a.
Co-op right type.

1085
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:10,920
Thing if you could do it, which
is what I mean, the Davis County

1086
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:14,760
Co-op, that's what they are.
And many of the other

1087
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:18,600
fundamentalist groups that have
entertained some sort of united

1088
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:22,720
order in one form or another in
essentially they try to get as

1089
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,120
close as they can to the
communal living, but it's really

1090
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:28,600
a group of brethren and sisters
working together in a Co-op.

1091
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:33,360
Can I ask you a question about
just real quick and and if

1092
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,440
you're not comfortable
answering, you don't have to,

1093
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:40,240
but I'm just curious.
We, we talk about kind of, and

1094
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,120
I'm going to say here, I don't
know if it's the right way to

1095
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:45,040
say it.
We have kind of the Co-op model

1096
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:49,640
and then we have kind of the the
communal living part, right?

1097
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,680
Do you think those two are
mutually exclusive or do you

1098
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:59,200
think those two can can coexist
simultaneously in the same

1099
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:02,200
system?
I think they can.

1100
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:07,680
And I think that just again,
Bucka David here, I think that

1101
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:11,920
that's probably the best that we
could do, OK?

1102
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:15,880
Because like we said before the
United Order and Order bill, I'm

1103
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:19,040
uncomfortable with the rights of
the fathers being trampled on in

1104
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,760
that instance, right?
And they called themselves the

1105
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:25,320
communal family.
But, you know, I like my time

1106
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,560
with my kids.
And I think there's value

1107
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,160
because my belief is the Lord
brought him into my family for a

1108
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:32,760
purpose.
Absolutely.

1109
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:36,440
And if I turn over my rights to
the Bishop, that's just putting

1110
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,280
a lot on the Bishop.
Yeah.

1111
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:41,600
Now, this does bring to mind a
quote from the Prophet Joseph

1112
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:44,000
that might be applicable to
read.

1113
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:50,840
This is in Teaching the Prophet
Joseph, page 23, and Edward

1114
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,880
Partridge is having a question
here about how this is supposed

1115
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,720
to work.
And we've heard this quote lots

1116
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,840
of times, but it's just an
interesting way to consider it.

1117
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:05,840
He says this on page 23.
The fact is this, a man is bound

1118
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,960
by the law of the Church to
consecrate to the Bishop before

1119
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:11,640
he can be considered a legal
heir to the Kingdom of Zion.

1120
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:16,280
And this too without constraint.
And unless he does this, he

1121
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:18,520
cannot be acknowledged before
the Lord on the Church book.

1122
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:22,240
So this is very, very important.
But he says the matter of

1123
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:26,800
consecration must be done by the
mutual consent of both parties.

1124
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,600
For to give the Bishop power to
say how much every man shall

1125
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,880
have, and he be obliged to
comply with the Bishop's

1126
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,880
judgement, is giving the Bishop
more power than a king has.

1127
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:42,920
And upon the other hand, to let
every man say how much he needs

1128
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,480
and the Bishop be obliged to
comply with his judgement, is to

1129
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:50,240
throw Zion into confusion and to
make a slave of the Bishop.

1130
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:55,000
The fact is, there must be a
balance or equilibrium of power

1131
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:58,280
between the Bishop and the
people, and thus harmony and

1132
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:00,280
goodwill will be preserved among
you.

1133
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:04,080
So yeah, Joseph definitely
saying.

1134
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:06,240
Nailed it.
Got to be got to be in balance

1135
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:10,040
on this right too far.
One way or another, you're

1136
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:11,960
you're going to have.
Issues, right?

1137
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,960
And so in the case of
Orderville, I mean, without

1138
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:18,960
diving into all the journals, it
seems to be fairly successful.

1139
01:08:19,399 --> 01:08:22,479
Personally, I would be more
comfortable where the Bishop was

1140
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,760
held in check, the people were
held in check.

1141
01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:29,120
And all this for the purpose of
taking care of the poor and

1142
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:32,960
building up the Kingdom as we
make in our covenants and

1143
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:38,279
creating or establishing Zion
where we are of one heart, one

1144
01:08:38,279 --> 01:08:43,640
soul, one mind.
And this that that we.

1145
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:47,319
And so now we're in this, we're
in this really good place.

1146
01:08:47,319 --> 01:08:50,920
It's a perfect segue to talk
about why this is important.

1147
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:54,600
And this is probably going to be
the shortest part, OK, Because

1148
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:56,200
it's pretty obvious at this
point.

1149
01:08:56,319 --> 01:08:59,520
We've gone to this history.
We can say, oh, I see that

1150
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:01,920
there's value in this.
Right, but.

1151
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:07,680
How do we do this today?
Because, you know, or those of

1152
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:10,600
us in the different churches or
branches of the restoration, are

1153
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:14,040
we required to look to our
leaders and say, well, I'll just

1154
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:17,800
do my best until you organize an
order for me to live in, right?

1155
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:21,560
But those of us who've been
through the endowment, haven't

1156
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:24,000
we made a covenant to do this
that we read.

1157
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:27,680
Absolutely.
So how do we do this?

1158
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,040
You know, and this is a question
I just keep asking myself.

1159
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:36,359
How do we do this?
Now let's talk about the temple

1160
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:39,760
because there's another
important aspect in the temple

1161
01:09:40,279 --> 01:09:43,120
that is mentioned.
And I know there's lots of

1162
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:45,680
things in the temple we're not
supposed to reveal, but there's

1163
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:48,600
a great deal that we can.
We're not under covenant too.

1164
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:54,600
Most of the most of the
ceremonies that I have read,

1165
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,640
with exception I and I don't
have the current church one, but

1166
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:00,320
I don't think this phrase is in
it.

1167
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:02,840
But in most of the
fundamentalist ones, 'cause they

1168
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:06,480
try to harken back to an earlier
time, there's a certain phrase

1169
01:10:06,480 --> 01:10:09,600
in relation to the law of
consecration that sets it apart

1170
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,080
from the other laws in the
temple.

1171
01:10:13,480 --> 01:10:19,920
So the Lord tells the messenger,
go down to the man Adam and

1172
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:24,760
administer to him the law of
consecration in connection with

1173
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,840
the law of sacrifice and the law
of the gospel.

1174
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,520
No other law is made in
connection with another law.

1175
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:36,360
Right.
That tells us something as I see

1176
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:37,160
it.
Yeah.

1177
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:41,160
So what does that tell us?
And I, I read that one time when

1178
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:44,000
we were doing some work for
someone, and I just thought,

1179
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:47,960
thought, thought about that.
And this idea popped into my

1180
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:49,080
head.
And you can tell me if I'm

1181
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:54,200
totally crazy.
During the law of sacrifice, we

1182
01:10:54,200 --> 01:11:00,000
sacrifice all that isn't worthy
of the Lord, and through

1183
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,680
faithful living of the Lord's
commandments we sanctify that

1184
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:08,480
which is worthy of Him and then
consecrate it to Him for the

1185
01:11:08,480 --> 01:11:11,160
building of the Kingdom and the
establishment of Zion.

1186
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:19,560
Now we have a way to do this.
OK, parse that out a little bit.

1187
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:21,120
I'm, I'm.
I'm.

1188
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:22,080
Slow.
Forgive me.

1189
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:24,480
No, you're good.
This is good because.

1190
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,400
So I'm thinking about, OK, so I
take my properties.

1191
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:32,200
Now I can give my surplus to the
Bishop if I'm not using it, hey,

1192
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:33,840
maybe somebody else should.
That's great.

1193
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:42,480
Now I take what I have and I say
I'm going to take what I have

1194
01:11:42,480 --> 01:11:45,200
and I'm going to cut off the
junk.

1195
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:47,880
Lord doesn't want the garbage
parts, right?

1196
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:51,520
It's like throughout the
Scriptures, you know, sacrifice

1197
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:54,240
your best lamb, sacrifice the
first fruits.

1198
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:57,120
So let's get rid of the stuff
that's no good.

1199
01:11:57,480 --> 01:12:00,920
In other words, take our talents
and multiply them, right?

1200
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:04,000
Do the best we can with what we
have, and if it doesn't serve

1201
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:07,280
us, we can sacrifice that off.
And I'm not saying this is the

1202
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:11,400
whole meaning of the of the law
of sacrifice, because you

1203
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:13,840
already talked about this.
But in relation to the law of

1204
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,200
consecration, this seems to make
the most sense to me.

1205
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:21,000
Sacrifice what isn't worthy of
the Lord, Then live righteously.

1206
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:24,280
The law of the gospel says that
you will live all the

1207
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:28,600
commandments of the Lord live
the law of the gospel start to

1208
01:12:29,440 --> 01:12:33,440
start to sanctify that which you
have decided is worthy of the

1209
01:12:33,440 --> 01:12:36,960
Lord.
And then once you feel that it's

1210
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:41,160
at the place you recognize that
it's his you consecrated to him

1211
01:12:41,440 --> 01:12:42,880
for the building up of the
Kingdom.

1212
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:48,000
This is, there's a very, you
know, standardized half that you

1213
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:54,360
can walk down, bring forth
fruits worthy of the Lord.

1214
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,720
We recognize that everything's
his, but, you know, in more of a

1215
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:01,920
crude way, the Lord doesn't want
our junk, right?

1216
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:05,520
You know, And so now we can turn
this internally.

1217
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:09,880
What do we do with ourselves?
Do we not want to cut the bad

1218
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:14,960
parts of us off, live the gospel
and then consecrate ourselves,

1219
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:18,680
our 9 talents and means?
That's that's more than our

1220
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:20,320
property.
That's us.

1221
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:23,600
Our best parts?
Right, our best parts.

1222
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:27,160
The parts that that we wanted to
keep, that we wanted to refine,

1223
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:31,320
that we wanted to grow and
magnify, that's what we give to

1224
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:35,120
the Lord.
And we say, take my talents and

1225
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:40,720
use them for good, right?
Don't take my bad habits, take

1226
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:42,760
my talents.
I'm going to deal with those.

1227
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:46,760
Take my talents and let's let's
go do this.

1228
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:50,080
Now what is this?
And I keep thinking about this

1229
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:53,040
and I go, because what is the
word trying to do?

1230
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,440
What's he trying to do with us,
with the whole temple and

1231
01:13:57,440 --> 01:14:02,200
everything, if it's not to teach
us how to become like him?

1232
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:05,560
Yep, Yep.
And this is what he does.

1233
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:10,640
You know, I think this is so
important for for that reason

1234
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:15,240
that you just mentioned the and
and this is this is my own

1235
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:18,120
thought.
So again, this time it's it's

1236
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:21,280
the second book of Dave Page 1.
So take it with a great boot.

1237
01:14:21,480 --> 01:14:22,880
Great.
Big grain of salt.

1238
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:26,960
But I have often looked at the
temple, right?

1239
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:29,880
If if we look at what Joseph
Smith is trying to do, he

1240
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:33,200
doesn't seem to be too worried
about just meeting houses,

1241
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,520
right?
He's that's not on his radar.

1242
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:38,360
He is aiming at something
entirely different.

1243
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:41,960
He's aiming at communities and
at temples.

1244
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:44,480
Those are it.
Why do those 2GO together?

1245
01:14:45,440 --> 01:14:51,000
And I thought about this a lot.
I think making and living those

1246
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:55,160
covenants is kind of like
getting your, your citizenship

1247
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:57,840
so that you can live in Zion,
right?

1248
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:04,680
I don't think you could live a
consecrated life in Zion without

1249
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,080
going through the temple first,
right?

1250
01:15:07,480 --> 01:15:14,040
If, if, if we can can make that
that leap that Joseph isn't.

1251
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:17,480
I'm going to say something here
that also irritates some people.

1252
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:23,160
To me, Mormonism is the first
successful counterculture in the

1253
01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:26,680
United States.
It is more than just a religion,

1254
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:32,320
right?
This is a group of people who

1255
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:34,360
are saying we are going to live
differently.

1256
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:37,320
And this is what Joseph is
pushing, right?

1257
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:43,120
This is the, the, the, the, his,
his vision that was given to him

1258
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:45,720
by the Lord is that we're going
to build Zion.

1259
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:51,440
We are going for a community.
And just like every other

1260
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:57,320
Kingdom, right, has its own
economic policy, its own

1261
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:04,000
economics system.
This is the Lord's right.

1262
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:08,560
This is the Lord's program.
And so going through the temple

1263
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:12,040
and making these covenants is
super important because I do

1264
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:15,800
think it's your, your passport
or your, your citizenship card

1265
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:20,240
to get into Zion.
It's it's Ellis Island on which

1266
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:24,040
you put your feet to immigrate
to Zion.

1267
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:31,480
And and to go along with that,
the reason why is because Zion

1268
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:35,720
is the pure in heart.
And can we truly learn how to do

1269
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:39,640
that unless we're willing to go
through this process, right?

1270
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:42,640
You know, this, this sacrifice
and law of the gospel and

1271
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:45,440
consecrating ourselves.
If we're not willing to go

1272
01:16:45,440 --> 01:16:48,440
through this, then we're not
prepared.

1273
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:52,600
Now I want to harken back to the
story you told about Ball.

1274
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:56,280
Yeah.
It's in contrast to this.

1275
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:00,360
Instead of sacrificing the parts
that aren't usable, let's

1276
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:03,000
sacrifice the parts that are.
Right.

1277
01:17:03,440 --> 01:17:07,840
It's in contrast here, right and
and the Lord is trying to say

1278
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:13,400
no, I want the best parts of you
because, and this is this goes

1279
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:17,920
almost without saying, the
living of the fullness of the

1280
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:21,920
gospel.
So the temple is a whole all the

1281
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:25,280
covenants that we make.
What they're trying to do is

1282
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:29,800
help us shed off the parts of us
that are not worthy, help us to

1283
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:33,760
walk in the way that we should
because we're not going to be

1284
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:37,160
comfortable.
The celestial Kingdom is

1285
01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:42,120
governed by the principle of
charity, which I like to define

1286
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:46,800
as this service in the spirit of
love.

1287
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:54,080
That's the motivating factor
behind the gods, and living

1288
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:59,080
these laws correctly helps us
get our motivations in the right

1289
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:02,320
place.
They help us shed breed.

1290
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:06,480
They help us shed dishonesty.
They help us shed all the

1291
01:18:06,480 --> 01:18:12,560
foibles of the flesh to learn to
think and act and be motivated

1292
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:16,640
by the things that God is
motivated by.

1293
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:19,920
The way that God thinks, the way
that the reasons that he acts

1294
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:23,080
the way he does.
And I don't think that could be

1295
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:27,000
understated.
This isn't just a simple ritual

1296
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:29,280
we go through just to make
ourselves feel good.

1297
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:36,800
There's purpose and you know,
and so we just bring it back to

1298
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:40,280
the law of consecration.
What could the Lord be trying to

1299
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:46,120
teach us in this order of having
all things in common, this order

1300
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:51,280
of turning over our properties
to the Lord, if it isn't to help

1301
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:55,480
prepare us for those who are
faithful to stand in counsel

1302
01:18:55,480 --> 01:19:00,040
with our brethren and create an
earth and recognize its purpose?

1303
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:03,000
Right.
It's not for our own gain.

1304
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:07,000
We have all the gold and all the
riches of the world in our hands

1305
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:11,040
as as faithful kings and priests
on the other side, but we

1306
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:14,240
recognize those things have a
purpose because we learned it

1307
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:18,720
when we were.
Here, Yep, Yep, absolutely.

1308
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:26,360
I if, and this is just my
opinion because I, I, I do want

1309
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:29,640
to talk about that part there a
little bit.

1310
01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:36,440
So often I think we have this
idea of consecration and united

1311
01:19:36,440 --> 01:19:39,080
order.
I shouldn't say often.

1312
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:42,280
I've heard some people say that,
well, we're all just going to be

1313
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:44,880
poor together and then we'll
have no rich or no poor among

1314
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:48,000
us.
I don't necessarily subscribe to

1315
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:51,880
that right.
I don't think that that the

1316
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:58,440
Saints were meant to live in in
hovels their whole lives and

1317
01:19:58,440 --> 01:20:01,080
that was going to be God's
glory, right?

1318
01:20:01,080 --> 01:20:05,840
I really do think that when he
says we want to make we want no

1319
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:08,440
poor among us, there's a
standard there, right?

1320
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:10,760
And he wants to bring people up
to that.

1321
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:20,400
There's there's a weird
religious pride that goes in

1322
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:26,520
sometimes to poverty, right?
And I want to say this, there is

1323
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:30,400
no sin.
And in being poor, I've been,

1324
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:35,000
I've been probably never
wealthy, but I've I've done well

1325
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:38,120
and I've also done really
poorly.

1326
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:40,960
Right.
O 8 to O 12 was rough on my

1327
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:42,840
profession, brother.
Right there.

1328
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,200
Was there you there wasn't a lot
of building going on in those

1329
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:47,320
days.
Yeah.

1330
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:50,520
And so I'm not criticizing
anybody for that.

1331
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:56,720
But you, you shouldn't use that
to justify staying there either,

1332
01:20:56,840 --> 01:21:00,680
right?
And, and look, the more you can

1333
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:03,560
bless, the, the more you can
get, the more you can bless

1334
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:05,680
others with.
And I think that's important to

1335
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:10,480
keep in mind here, right?
Getting gain for the sake of

1336
01:21:10,480 --> 01:21:13,120
getting gain.
I think it's a bad thing, right?

1337
01:21:13,440 --> 01:21:19,040
Getting gain so you can bless
others with it, I think is what

1338
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:24,160
the Lord is aiming for.
But mankind has a way of once he

1339
01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:28,800
gets some money, all of a sudden
though things start to change a

1340
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:32,240
little bit in that guy, right?
I mean all of a sudden you know

1341
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:37,280
that game theory takes over and
it becomes a 0 sum game knowing

1342
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:40,240
who the Lord is, like you were
saying.

1343
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:43,720
And this is what I wanted to get
back to this idea that we,

1344
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:47,240
there's not enough to go around.
No, I'm a believer that that

1345
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:51,040
wealth can be created, right?
And if man counting can do it,

1346
01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:53,560
you know, the Lord can do it
through his system, right?

1347
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:55,240
And so there's plenty to go
around.

1348
01:21:55,240 --> 01:21:56,640
It's just how we're going to use
it.

1349
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:00,600
And I think those, and I loved
what you said there, right, that

1350
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:03,280
those covenants that we take in
the temple, especially with

1351
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:07,640
consecration, is about getting,
getting ourselves in a place to

1352
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:10,920
where we could part with that so
that the Lord can work with it

1353
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:17,200
and bless the lives of others.
And you know, we can even go

1354
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:19,920
into that a little bit with the
poverty, because there's some

1355
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:22,280
people that are poor due to
circumstance and there's some

1356
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:26,440
people that are poor due to bad
habits or right, maybe they have

1357
01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:29,600
a, an addiction problem or there
could be a number of reason.

1358
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:32,440
Yep.
So what is our responsibility in

1359
01:22:32,440 --> 01:22:36,800
relation to those people?
Is it not to help them?

1360
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:41,120
The If the Lord has blessed us,
aren't we supposed to help them

1361
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:43,480
the way that He would help them?
Absolutely.

1362
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:46,520
That's not just giving them $100
bill.

1363
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:51,640
No like you'd.
Do with it, but say, hey, what

1364
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,200
can I do to help you see a
different picture?

1365
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:57,840
Yeah, what, you know, some of
them, these people, they just

1366
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:02,480
need to recognize that they have
value and that their, their

1367
01:23:02,480 --> 01:23:05,760
efforts have value.
And I, I recognize this is hard

1368
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:10,040
for people when they've lived a
life that maybe they, they're

1369
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:12,960
starting out as a young person
and it's hard to get a job and

1370
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:16,240
it's hard to get money.
And no one will, you know,

1371
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:21,120
extend, extend out an offer to
help teach them how to be

1372
01:23:21,120 --> 01:23:25,720
productive.
And so as business owners and as

1373
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:29,600
as leaders in the communities,
we have a responsibility to look

1374
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:32,920
to those people and say, what
can I do to help them?

1375
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:36,640
Not just like the old phrase,
give him a man, a fish, he'll

1376
01:23:36,640 --> 01:23:39,160
eat for a night.
Teach a man to fish and he'll

1377
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:43,080
eat for a lifetime.
So how do we teach our young

1378
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:48,200
people how to fish, how to work,
how to build the Kingdom, and

1379
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:52,200
yet teach them that the most
important part is giving, not

1380
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:56,640
just receiving.
And this is how we we start to

1381
01:23:56,640 --> 01:24:00,680
build a Zion community based on
these principles of

1382
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:03,640
consecration, because we
recognize that the things the

1383
01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:08,520
Lord has given us, they serve a
purpose for his people, not for

1384
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:10,400
our own ego.
Yeah.

1385
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:13,320
That's what that I think that's
what we're trying to learn.

1386
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:22,400
I, I think you're 100% correct.
I, as I've looked over, you

1387
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:25,520
know, different people and their
struggles and, and that sort of

1388
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:28,800
thing, you are 100% correct.
There is a lot of reasons for

1389
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:31,840
poverty, right?
For the guy who's working hard

1390
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:33,960
and he just can't catch a break.
You know what?

1391
01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:37,640
Maybe that dude just needs a
little bit of cash to get him

1392
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:40,200
over the hump, right?
He's already got good habits.

1393
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:43,400
If a dude's got good habits, at
some point things are going to

1394
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:44,920
break his way, right?
That's.

1395
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:49,560
The guy who doesn't have good
habits but yet is still trying,

1396
01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:52,200
but just keeps to continually
shoot himself in the foot.

1397
01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:55,280
That's the guy where you got a
kind of maybe wrap your arm

1398
01:24:55,280 --> 01:24:58,320
around him a little bit and be
like, OK, so here's what we need

1399
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:01,040
to do, right?
We, we need to maybe shift

1400
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:03,520
things a little bit in our
perspective and get you, get you

1401
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:06,760
going on the right path.
And so as we talk about

1402
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:09,480
consecration, I think there's a
lot that we can do there with

1403
01:25:09,480 --> 01:25:11,920
that, right?
The Lord doesn't put a limit on

1404
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:13,880
what it is we can consecrate,
right?

1405
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:17,400
It's quite the opposite.
He expects everything, right?

1406
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:19,720
At the end of the day, that's
what he wants.

1407
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:21,760
And why is it that's what he
wants?

1408
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:24,840
Because he wants, as you put it,
to work with the best parts of

1409
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:27,000
us, right?
And there's going to be guys,

1410
01:25:27,160 --> 01:25:29,480
David, that you can reach that I
just can't, right?

1411
01:25:29,480 --> 01:25:33,320
It's just I'm out of personality
and and that's just the way it's

1412
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:35,120
going to be.
And so all of us are needed in

1413
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:36,880
this.
Yeah.

1414
01:25:37,440 --> 01:25:43,600
The the other thing I'll say is
that before I do that, I'm going

1415
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:46,040
to share a story.
I have not shared this publicly

1416
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:52,520
I don't think and and I'm going
to here on this one after a

1417
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:56,800
couple years after my dad died.
I must have been pushing 1516 at

1418
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:01,120
this point.
We were poor as a family.

1419
01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:04,080
I mean dirt poor.
We went from my dad doing really

1420
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:09,240
well while he's alive business
owner had several shops across

1421
01:26:09,720 --> 01:26:14,120
the Pacific Northwest.
He passes away.

1422
01:26:14,120 --> 01:26:18,720
We have to sell those off.
And then we're, we're pretty

1423
01:26:18,720 --> 01:26:22,320
poor at that point.
The old man was really good at

1424
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:25,160
making money, but he wasn't so
good about saving and, you know,

1425
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:28,360
life insurance and those sorts
of things, right?

1426
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:32,840
And so we, we get really poor.
And I'd come home one day from

1427
01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:38,960
school and my mom was sitting at
the table and she was crying.

1428
01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:43,320
And she, I saw her put an
envelope, I mean, a letter back

1429
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:48,280
in an envelope.
And I ask her, hey, mom, what's

1430
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:50,240
going on?
Why, what's, what's happening

1431
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:52,800
here?
Now at this point, my mom's

1432
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:55,920
working three jobs.
She has no real, you know, she's

1433
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:58,040
got a high school diploma and
that's about it, right?

1434
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:06,080
She would work from like 2:30 in
the morning to about 8:30 or 9

1435
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:11,480
at a grocery store, bakery,
getting Donuts pushed out, that

1436
01:27:11,480 --> 01:27:14,600
sort of thing.
Then she'd come home, she would

1437
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:18,640
sleep for for a couple of hours,
she'd go to work for an

1438
01:27:18,640 --> 01:27:23,120
insurance agent as a secretary,
do some filing, that sort of

1439
01:27:23,120 --> 01:27:26,720
thing, until like 4:30 in the
afternoon.

1440
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:30,680
Then she would immediately go
down to the nursing home in town

1441
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:36,320
and serve dinner and then get
home by about 7:38 o'clock, go

1442
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:39,240
to bed and be right back up at
about midnight, start getting

1443
01:27:39,240 --> 01:27:42,800
ready for work and just doing
this over and over and over.

1444
01:27:43,160 --> 01:27:47,320
And I remember I after she said,
no, I'm fine.

1445
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:48,960
I think I'm just tired.
I'm going to go to bed.

1446
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:53,600
I was, as I'm prone to do, I'm
like, well, we'll just see about

1447
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:55,240
this.
So I just kind of moseied on

1448
01:27:55,240 --> 01:28:02,560
over the table after she went to
bed and I pulled out the, the

1449
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:07,040
letter that she was reading.
And what I saw was, is that she

1450
01:28:07,040 --> 01:28:10,480
had tried to apply for some food
assistance from the government,

1451
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:14,200
and the government said, you
know what, you grossed $20 too

1452
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:19,600
much, so we can't help you.
And in that moment, I remember

1453
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:25,360
thinking, one, I'll be, I'll be
damned if I ever go to them and

1454
01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:29,480
ask them for a thing.
Right at 15 years old, I all of

1455
01:28:29,480 --> 01:28:35,680
a sudden became Rush Limbaugh.
And then I remember thinking,

1456
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:40,000
there's got to be a better way.
There has got to be a better way

1457
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,760
to do this, right?
I saw the system abused.

1458
01:28:45,160 --> 01:28:49,200
If we're not going to do this,
this is the covenants we make.

1459
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:52,760
These are the covenants we make.
If we're not going to do this,

1460
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:57,120
who's going to do it right?
Because news flash, the

1461
01:28:57,120 --> 01:28:58,800
government kind of sucks at
doing this.

1462
01:29:00,760 --> 01:29:03,800
I, I feel like that this does
belong in the realm of religion.

1463
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:08,000
And the reason it belongs in the
realm of religion is because

1464
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:12,080
we're supposed to love our
brothers and sisters that we

1465
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:17,800
attend with and we can make
decisions with them that are in

1466
01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:21,760
their best interest.
And we, we need to get down to

1467
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:23,840
brass tacks on that really
quickly.

1468
01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:28,760
And I, I will say this, I, I
think we need to start looking

1469
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:32,920
at consecration again as maybe a
viable option again, right?

1470
01:29:32,920 --> 01:29:37,640
I, I'm look, I'm not saying rush
out and do it, but I think it's

1471
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:42,720
worth studying and understanding
really well and then figure out

1472
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:44,000
where you want to take it from
there.

1473
01:29:45,880 --> 01:29:47,840
Oh, I appreciate that story
because.

1474
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:51,600
And I, I do want to say there's
a lot of people who struggle and

1475
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:54,240
a lot of people who do receive
assistance from the government

1476
01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:58,200
that that seems to be their only
option because let's face it,

1477
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:00,640
the government's created a
monopoly on charities.

1478
01:30:01,880 --> 01:30:04,240
And.
But it wouldn't, it doesn't have

1479
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:05,000
to be.
So.

1480
01:30:05,440 --> 01:30:07,920
Yeah.
So let's just let's just

1481
01:30:07,920 --> 01:30:12,760
hypothetically talk about how
could an order like this get

1482
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:14,720
started today?
Yeah.

1483
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:17,280
That was hard to abuse.
Yeah.

1484
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:20,720
If you had it, If you.
So I'll just take myself.

1485
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:24,360
If I'm go through the temple and
I make this covenant that I'm

1486
01:30:24,360 --> 01:30:25,880
going to concentrate all that I
have.

1487
01:30:26,480 --> 01:30:28,760
And that means I'm going to look
out for the poor.

1488
01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:33,280
That means I'm going to, you
know, consecrate my surplus to

1489
01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:35,280
the Bishop.
However, if I have a Bishop, if

1490
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:39,280
I don't, well then then I'm
going to do my best to recognize

1491
01:30:39,280 --> 01:30:42,840
the purpose for which all this
things that the Lord has blessed

1492
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:47,840
me, what that purpose is.
And I'm going along, doing the

1493
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:50,320
best I can, but I'm just me,
just one guy.

1494
01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:53,720
Right.
Well, then I run into a faithful

1495
01:30:53,720 --> 01:30:56,160
brother who says, hey, I'm doing
the same thing.

1496
01:30:56,880 --> 01:31:01,240
Do you know that?
You know, in synergy, 2 + 2

1497
01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:04,120
doesn't always equal 4.
It actually starts to increase.

1498
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:10,320
What if we joined our things
together and we, you know, we

1499
01:31:10,320 --> 01:31:14,080
start to be able to bless more
than twice as much as we could

1500
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:16,240
before.
And then another brother comes

1501
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:18,000
and says, hey, I like what you
guys are doing.

1502
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:21,360
It has the right spirit that and
you know, let's come together.

1503
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:24,040
By the way, here's a community.
We have a Bishop.

1504
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:27,520
We could do this even a little
more organized now, doesn't it

1505
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:30,840
make more sense to have
something come from a, a grass

1506
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:34,600
roots kind of a place rather
than a top down?

1507
01:31:35,200 --> 01:31:37,520
You know, I want you guys to do
this.

1508
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:40,560
And then I'm not saying anything
bad about leadership, but

1509
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:44,160
sometimes this happens and it
works very well for the

1510
01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:48,440
leadership because they get
control of a lot of money, you

1511
01:31:48,440 --> 01:31:50,720
know?
But if you have people who are

1512
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:55,320
100% committed in every way and
they're coming together for the

1513
01:31:55,320 --> 01:31:59,640
right motivations and the right
reasons, so much could be

1514
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:02,400
blessed because you would look
for ways to bless people instead

1515
01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:06,000
of saying like the churches say
now because of the government,

1516
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:09,640
well, we don't have to really do
that because the government does

1517
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:13,320
that, you know, and I know the
LDS church actually does a

1518
01:32:13,320 --> 01:32:15,920
pretty good job for the most
part helping people.

1519
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:20,320
And so not everybody's this way,
but I know a lot of people,

1520
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:24,600
single people, not in a
community who say, well, I don't

1521
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:26,520
really need to do that.
It's like, well, you're

1522
01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:29,240
starving.
Go to the go to the center down

1523
01:32:29,240 --> 01:32:32,200
the road and you don't want to
fall into this with the church

1524
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:34,800
and say, Hey, I'm not supposed
to take care of you.

1525
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:38,720
That's the Bishop's job.
You know, you say no, you have a

1526
01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:42,800
responsibility as an elder in
the church to help, to help

1527
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:45,400
people.
And, and you will see this if

1528
01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:49,120
you watch communities and you
watch people's motivations and

1529
01:32:49,120 --> 01:32:52,960
see what they actually do, you
will see this manifest.

1530
01:32:53,200 --> 01:32:58,080
I've seen this in one instance
that I that I'll spring up, I

1531
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:03,800
know a man who has a successful
business and some of the

1532
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:07,280
employees and the young men of
the community are needing to

1533
01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:09,760
build houses.
And he has a successful business

1534
01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:12,080
and he will fund them building
their house.

1535
01:33:13,280 --> 01:33:16,440
And they will do all the work
themselves or damn and all their

1536
01:33:16,440 --> 01:33:20,120
buddies and whoever else of the
community that has time to come

1537
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:23,160
and help will do as much of the
labor for free.

1538
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:27,040
And his business will provide
all the money to build, buy all

1539
01:33:27,040 --> 01:33:29,560
the materials.
He essentially owns the house

1540
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:33,360
legally until it's done, passes
off final inspection.

1541
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:38,240
They get a, they get a person to
come out and do the inspection,

1542
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,240
you know, see what it's worth.
And they take that and get a

1543
01:33:41,240 --> 01:33:44,400
note from the bank and he sells
the house to them for the cost

1544
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:48,600
of the material.
Now that's somebody and he, he's

1545
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:51,160
not gaining anything.
Like he's not saying I'm going

1546
01:33:51,160 --> 01:33:54,360
to take a cut or profit.
He's just saying, hey, you work

1547
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:57,880
for me, you're a good employee
or or you're a young man in the

1548
01:33:57,880 --> 01:33:59,000
community.
I want to help.

1549
01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:02,600
Let me help you do this.
And I can think of several

1550
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:06,720
people right now that do this,
even in all the communities I've

1551
01:34:06,720 --> 01:34:09,840
visited.
And this helps a young person be

1552
01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:13,480
able to get a house for
sometimes up to half its

1553
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:16,880
estimated value because
somebody's helping.

1554
01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:21,120
And this isn't demanded.
He's not a Bishop, he's not a

1555
01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:25,560
president, He's not the top dog.
He's just somebody who the Lord

1556
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:27,840
has blessed and he wants to
bless others.

1557
01:34:28,320 --> 01:34:31,400
To me, that's the spirit of the
law of consecration.

1558
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:35,640
What can we do to help people?
Not give them a handout, help

1559
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:39,880
them help them do right with
their with their life and get

1560
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:44,960
them on a good firm footing so
that moving forward, then they

1561
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:47,680
will be in a place to bless
others down the road.

1562
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:51,920
And you can start growing this
this community in a way that

1563
01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:55,400
otherwise would be very
difficult for one person to do

1564
01:34:55,400 --> 01:34:57,240
by themselves.
But when the collection comes

1565
01:34:57,240 --> 01:35:00,160
together, a lot of good can be
done.

1566
01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:03,200
I agree.
I agree.

1567
01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:07,760
And that's, you know, the guy
you just described is the guy

1568
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:10,040
that's consecrated in heart,
right?

1569
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:16,120
Look, the savior was very clear
where, where your, your, where

1570
01:35:16,120 --> 01:35:20,320
your heart is, where where your
treasure is or where your heart

1571
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:22,040
is is where your treasure's AT,
right?

1572
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:27,760
And again, if you approach it
from game theory, right, kind of

1573
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:33,080
a 0 sum game, you're going to
lack in this all the time,

1574
01:35:33,520 --> 01:35:35,680
right?
And it's how you, you're going

1575
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:39,320
to view those resources.
Do you view those resources as

1576
01:35:40,240 --> 01:35:42,680
as the means to an end?
And look, I've known a lot of

1577
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:46,800
smart businessmen that the money
is just how they keep score,

1578
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:50,920
right?
And are really good about, you

1579
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:53,560
know, if, if they see a need,
they'll go, they'll go help.

1580
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:58,480
And, and I asked one once he, he
was a developer and he, I knew

1581
01:35:58,480 --> 01:36:01,000
he gave away a lot of money.
I mean a lot of money.

1582
01:36:01,360 --> 01:36:05,960
And, and you hear things working
in the industry, right, about

1583
01:36:06,040 --> 01:36:07,880
how he's helped out people
before.

1584
01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:10,520
And I asked him, I was like,
what motivates you to do that?

1585
01:36:11,440 --> 01:36:16,920
And in, in, in Full disclosure,
this guy was, was a Catholic and

1586
01:36:16,920 --> 01:36:19,400
he said, well, I just feel like
it's my, my duty.

1587
01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:20,920
I've been blessed and, and I
want him.

1588
01:36:20,920 --> 01:36:22,680
I was like, what keeps you
going?

1589
01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:24,200
And he's like, oh, it's just the
game.

1590
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:27,280
He's like, just the game, right?
The money is just how I keep

1591
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:32,040
score, right?
And, and sometimes in that

1592
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:33,880
score, you want to keep all
that, right?

1593
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:36,280
And, and I get it, you know,
it's your labor.

1594
01:36:36,280 --> 01:36:38,640
I get it.
I'm not, I'm not a socialist by

1595
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:40,720
any stretch of the imagination,
right?

1596
01:36:41,400 --> 01:36:45,640
But that does not alleviate us
of the fact that that for many

1597
01:36:45,640 --> 01:36:48,960
of us, we've taken covenants and
the Lord is serious about those

1598
01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:51,800
things.
Just because you're not so

1599
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:53,280
serious doesn't mean the Lord
was.

1600
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:57,680
And you better you better
understand that going into it.

1601
01:36:59,200 --> 01:37:04,600
And you could even bring in an
alternate covenant, which is the

1602
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:11,320
exact opposite of this, which is
what creates the Gadian robbers.

1603
01:37:11,360 --> 01:37:16,520
Yeah, it's the exact opposite.
The the covenant that Cain made

1604
01:37:16,520 --> 01:37:20,760
with the devil completely
contradicts the United Order and

1605
01:37:20,760 --> 01:37:23,680
the law of Consecration.
In every way, absolutely,

1606
01:37:24,400 --> 01:37:30,560
absolutely do you I'm curious I
want I want to get your your

1607
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:33,960
thoughts on this And again, if
you don't want to speculate on

1608
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:36,040
it, it's fine.
And because it'll just be

1609
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:41,920
speculation, there's, there's
this idea that there's two ideas

1610
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:44,640
I've heard predominantly in
Mormonism, not just

1611
01:37:44,640 --> 01:37:46,200
fundamentalism or the LDS
church.

1612
01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:49,160
It spans the gamut, right?
Because I do think if you're

1613
01:37:49,160 --> 01:37:53,440
going to be a Mormon, the idea
of a Zion community is hardwired

1614
01:37:53,440 --> 01:37:55,160
into you.
You're not getting away from it.

1615
01:37:55,560 --> 01:38:00,920
It's, it's there.
Do you feel like we need to

1616
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:03,520
establish this before the savior
comes?

1617
01:38:03,520 --> 01:38:05,840
Or do you feel like this is
something that gets established

1618
01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:11,840
when he shows up?
I'm a very practical minded

1619
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:16,800
thinker and I say if we are not
living this now, seeing the

1620
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:18,320
Savior is not going to make us
do it.

1621
01:38:19,080 --> 01:38:22,760
I agree.
Like we've got to develop as

1622
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:25,280
much as we can with the
experiences we have.

1623
01:38:25,560 --> 01:38:28,320
We've got to the begin to
develop the kind of character

1624
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:35,000
that loves to live in that kind
of society because it is not in

1625
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:38,840
our nature to want to share.
And we've talked about a lot of

1626
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:40,880
history.
There's a lot of reasons why it

1627
01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:43,960
failed, but at the end of the
day, it's because it's not in

1628
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:48,320
our nature to do this.
But Enoch did it.

1629
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:50,560
Going right back to the
beginning.

1630
01:38:50,880 --> 01:38:54,200
Enoch did it and he created this
science society.

1631
01:38:54,640 --> 01:39:00,040
And it says in Chapter 7 of
Moses the Lord was with them.

1632
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:06,640
And I have to believe that it's
something akin to what the

1633
01:39:06,640 --> 01:39:10,560
brother of Jared witnessed.
I cannot withhold my face from

1634
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:14,520
you because their hearts and
their characters were in the

1635
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:17,880
right place.
So there is a case to be made

1636
01:39:18,280 --> 01:39:21,040
that he will come when we're
prepared for him.

1637
01:39:21,160 --> 01:39:23,080
Now, maybe he comes in
destruction.

1638
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:26,800
You know, I've noticed one other
thing that in relation to this,

1639
01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:31,680
you, you see, and 4th, the end
of third and 4th and Nephi after

1640
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:35,640
the Savior leaves the American
continent, that the people lived

1641
01:39:35,640 --> 01:39:40,000
in this Zion for a long time,
several generations are not

1642
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:44,200
mistaken.
And you know, they had the

1643
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:46,680
gadiant robbers amongst them
right before that.

1644
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:50,840
They had all this destruction
and they saw the Savior, they

1645
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:54,480
made covenants with him, they
heeded his direction and they

1646
01:39:54,480 --> 01:39:56,320
begin to live in this kind of
society.

1647
01:39:56,320 --> 01:39:59,880
So I suppose there's a case to
be made for either of them to be

1648
01:39:59,880 --> 01:40:03,080
true.
But to me, it doesn't change the

1649
01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:07,200
responsibility we have today.
We already know about it.

1650
01:40:07,440 --> 01:40:11,680
So if we're waiting for the
Savior, then we'll find our play

1651
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:16,120
ourselves in a place not unlike
the Jews were waiting for the

1652
01:40:16,120 --> 01:40:20,360
Messiah, Feeling like there's
just a lot of things we can't do

1653
01:40:20,360 --> 01:40:23,360
till He comes.
Well, we know about it.

1654
01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:26,360
What can we do to start
implementing Zion?

1655
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:30,320
Zion is like you said, Zion runs
in the blood of every morning.

1656
01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:32,440
Yep.
We want science.

1657
01:40:33,440 --> 01:40:37,160
Now, we may not understand what
all that means, but we are hard

1658
01:40:37,160 --> 01:40:41,520
wired to seek for it.
And it's more than a community.

1659
01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:46,560
It's more than a city on a hill
that's, you know, painted white.

1660
01:40:47,480 --> 01:40:49,080
This is the condition of their
heart.

1661
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:53,600
And this selfless love that we
were describing before has got

1662
01:40:53,600 --> 01:40:57,680
to be the motivation behind it
because it surpasses wisdom.

1663
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:02,840
It gives us the wisdom to know
how to bless people in the right

1664
01:41:02,840 --> 01:41:06,600
way and how to take care of our
stuff, how to multiply our

1665
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:10,200
flocks and our, our business
ventures.

1666
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:14,760
And, and you know, we're, we're
talking about, you know, at

1667
01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:18,440
least for us specific, we're
talking about building a temple.

1668
01:41:19,440 --> 01:41:22,160
You know it's going to cost more
money than we have.

1669
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:25,880
But.
But if, if the Lord puts things

1670
01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:28,440
into our hands and we're
faithful over a few things, he

1671
01:41:28,440 --> 01:41:30,960
will multiply it to be faithful
over many things.

1672
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:36,280
And we'll be able to do the work
that he asked us to do, just

1673
01:41:36,280 --> 01:41:39,000
like Joseph was trying to do and
did.

1674
01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:42,720
I mean, he nearly completed the
Nabu Temple by the time of his

1675
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:46,600
death, right?
And you watch the church do

1676
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:47,600
this.
And the church had lots.

1677
01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:50,880
Of financial troubles until.
The till Hebrew J Grant came

1678
01:41:50,880 --> 01:41:55,760
along in reality, but but
they're constantly trying to do

1679
01:41:55,760 --> 01:41:57,920
better.
And it's not about becoming a

1680
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:03,080
trillionaire church, but taking
care of our responsibilities,

1681
01:42:03,400 --> 01:42:07,200
learning the lessons because
everything temporal has a

1682
01:42:07,280 --> 01:42:10,600
spiritual aspect and I think
that can't be forgotten.

1683
01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:13,440
I think you're right, you know,
and.

1684
01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:20,000
I think, I honestly think that
this, this idea of, of

1685
01:42:20,040 --> 01:42:23,880
consecration goes for, for
America.

1686
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:25,760
I think it's super important for
American.

1687
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:27,440
I'm I'm going to tell you why
here in a second.

1688
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:31,440
I think it goes back farther
than.

1689
01:42:31,440 --> 01:42:37,320
Joseph Smith and you know who?
John Winthrop was name sounds

1690
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:42,200
familiar, but I couldn't I.
Don't know, Winthrop was by all

1691
01:42:42,200 --> 01:42:45,400
accounts a guy who?
Had it pretty good, right?

1692
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:49,840
He's living in in 17th century
England.

1693
01:42:50,480 --> 01:42:55,160
He his dad was an attorney.
He became an attorney, super

1694
01:42:55,160 --> 01:43:00,240
smart, but he has kind of a
religious awakening and he's one

1695
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:03,880
of the guys that would bring
settlers over to the Plymouth

1696
01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:07,160
colony on one of the one of the
voyage.

1697
01:43:07,200 --> 01:43:08,720
I think it's Plymouth.
Don't quote me on that.

1698
01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:11,760
I could be wrong on that, but
he's one of the guys who leads

1699
01:43:11,760 --> 01:43:14,080
people across the ocean on a
boat.

1700
01:43:15,320 --> 01:43:19,560
He's on the boat and he wakes up
one morning and he's like, I

1701
01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:23,000
have got to put this people
under covenant or we're not

1702
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:25,800
going to make it.
I mean, just out of the blue

1703
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:27,480
like I we've got to get them
under.

1704
01:43:27,480 --> 01:43:29,880
Covenant or we're not?
Going to make it, and I want to

1705
01:43:29,880 --> 01:43:32,200
read just a portion of this here
real quick, if you don't mind.

1706
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:37,840
Dave, he says for this end.
We must be knit together.

1707
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:41,840
In this work, as one man, we
must entertain each other in

1708
01:43:41,840 --> 01:43:45,200
brotherly affection.
We must be willing to abridge

1709
01:43:45,200 --> 01:43:49,000
ourselves our superfluities for
the supplies of others

1710
01:43:49,000 --> 01:43:51,800
necessities.
We must uphold a familiar

1711
01:43:51,800 --> 01:43:54,680
commerce together, and all
meekness, gentleness, patience,

1712
01:43:54,680 --> 01:43:57,360
and liberality.
We must delight in each other,

1713
01:43:57,720 --> 01:44:01,120
make others conditions our own,
rejoice together, mourn

1714
01:44:01,120 --> 01:44:04,600
together, labor and suffer
together, always having before

1715
01:44:04,600 --> 01:44:08,480
our eyes a Commission and
community in the work as a

1716
01:44:08,480 --> 01:44:11,680
member of the same body.
So we shall keep the unity of

1717
01:44:11,680 --> 01:44:13,360
the spirit, of the bond of
peace.

1718
01:44:13,720 --> 01:44:16,560
The Lord will be our God.
And here's where it gets

1719
01:44:16,560 --> 01:44:20,000
interesting.
The Lord will be our God and

1720
01:44:20,000 --> 01:44:25,480
delight to dwell amongst us His
own people, and will command a

1721
01:44:25,480 --> 01:44:30,760
blessing at our hands, command a
blessing upon us in all ways, so

1722
01:44:30,760 --> 01:44:33,720
that we shall see much more of
His wisdom and power and

1723
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:36,920
goodness and truth than formerly
we have been acquainted with.

1724
01:44:37,200 --> 01:44:40,880
We shall find that the God of
Israel will dwell amongst us

1725
01:44:41,320 --> 01:44:45,360
when ten of us will be able to
resist 1000 of our enemies, when

1726
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:48,680
He shall make us a praise and a
glory that men shall say of

1727
01:44:48,680 --> 01:44:51,880
succeeding generations.
May the Lord make it like that

1728
01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:55,440
of New England.
Beautiful promises.

1729
01:44:55,440 --> 01:45:02,560
Oh yeah, But there's a warning
at the end, and I don't think

1730
01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:04,720
we.
Can just take the good.

1731
01:45:04,720 --> 01:45:06,360
Without understanding the
warning.

1732
01:45:07,600 --> 01:45:11,680
And he says this, For we must
consider that we shall be as a

1733
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:15,880
city upon the hill, and the eyes
of all the of all people will be

1734
01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:19,040
upon us.
So that if we shall deal falsely

1735
01:45:19,040 --> 01:45:23,040
with our God in this work which
we have undertaken, and so

1736
01:45:23,040 --> 01:45:27,480
caused him to withdraw his
present presence from amongst

1737
01:45:27,480 --> 01:45:30,560
us, we shall be made a story in
a byword.

1738
01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:33,800
Through the world.
We shall open the mouths of the

1739
01:45:33,800 --> 01:45:37,960
enemies of God to speak evil of
the ways of God and all

1740
01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:42,200
professors for God's sake.
And we shall shame the faces of

1741
01:45:42,200 --> 01:45:46,280
many of God's worthy servants,
and 'cause their prayers to be

1742
01:45:46,280 --> 01:45:50,160
turned into curses upon us, till
we be consumed out of the good

1743
01:45:50,160 --> 01:45:55,440
land whither we are going.
So Winthrop is really clear,

1744
01:45:55,440 --> 01:45:57,920
right?
We have to embrace each other in

1745
01:45:57,920 --> 01:46:01,320
this familiar commerce, abridge
ourselves of our superfluities

1746
01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:05,080
for others necessities.
This is a condition, right?

1747
01:46:05,800 --> 01:46:10,160
And in a weird way, I think
Winthrop through revelation

1748
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:14,120
tapped into even what was said
when Alma was baptizing at the

1749
01:46:14,120 --> 01:46:17,160
waters of Mormon, right.
It's it's got that ring to it

1750
01:46:17,160 --> 01:46:19,360
too.
It's got a little bit of of

1751
01:46:19,360 --> 01:46:21,400
consecration going on, it sounds
like.

1752
01:46:21,400 --> 01:46:23,120
Oh yeah.
And then a warning.

1753
01:46:23,440 --> 01:46:28,160
You're not going to do this.
A story in a byword will be

1754
01:46:28,160 --> 01:46:30,120
throughout the world, Wolf.
Shame God.

1755
01:46:30,440 --> 01:46:34,880
So understand that that even
before the temple covenants were

1756
01:46:34,880 --> 01:46:40,920
restored, this is very closely
associated with this land.

1757
01:46:41,280 --> 01:46:46,960
And there are conditions with
which we have to keep this if we

1758
01:46:46,960 --> 01:46:51,720
want to prosper in the land.
Yeah, and to show you the

1759
01:46:51,760 --> 01:46:55,080
alternate.
The alternate that can happen

1760
01:46:55,480 --> 01:46:58,160
because he lays out the the
warning, right?

1761
01:46:58,360 --> 01:47:01,040
Yeah.
But if we go back to Enoch, what

1762
01:47:01,040 --> 01:47:03,320
happens?
As it says in.

1763
01:47:03,320 --> 01:47:07,640
In Chapter 7, that the armies of
the land win in battle against

1764
01:47:07,640 --> 01:47:09,920
them.
And according to apocryphal

1765
01:47:09,920 --> 01:47:14,200
stories, Enoch stands on the
mountain in front of the in

1766
01:47:14,200 --> 01:47:17,960
front of his city, between his
city and the army, and calls

1767
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:20,680
upon the Lord.
And all the riot lions in the

1768
01:47:20,760 --> 01:47:24,560
wilderness roar at once.
And the armies are like, now he

1769
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:28,200
ain't doing this right.
And then they turn around and

1770
01:47:28,200 --> 01:47:30,440
more or less defend.
The city.

1771
01:47:30,440 --> 01:47:33,680
And and tell other people don't
go up to this city, something's

1772
01:47:33,680 --> 01:47:36,440
happening.
That was because of their

1773
01:47:36,440 --> 01:47:39,000
faithful living.
They they did this.

1774
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:44,400
So based on this letter of, of
John Winthrop, it the first

1775
01:47:44,400 --> 01:47:48,200
thing that strikes my mind is
we're not in such an unsimilar

1776
01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:51,920
position today.
No, we have the information.

1777
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:58,480
If we don't move forward, we
will end up like the warning

1778
01:47:58,480 --> 01:48:02,160
that he gives there at the end
because we have the information

1779
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:05,000
where there's great knowledge
given, there's great

1780
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:09,400
responsibility required and it's
on us.

1781
01:48:09,840 --> 01:48:11,240
Yeah.
And, and there may not be a

1782
01:48:11,240 --> 01:48:13,480
better people to do it now,
right because.

1783
01:48:13,480 --> 01:48:18,320
Not only do we have the covenant
in place, we also have history

1784
01:48:18,320 --> 01:48:22,000
that we can look back on and say
what worked, what didn't, what

1785
01:48:22,000 --> 01:48:25,160
do we like, what do we don't?
And, and I do feel like God's

1786
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:26,920
given us some latitude with
this, right?

1787
01:48:26,920 --> 01:48:32,440
I think look a lot when it comes
to histories that deal with

1788
01:48:32,440 --> 01:48:37,120
mortals, I say the absence of
evidence is not evidence itself,

1789
01:48:37,960 --> 01:48:41,120
But when you we're dealing with
the Lord, I tend to say the

1790
01:48:41,160 --> 01:48:45,360
absence of evidence kind of
gives you some latitude, right?

1791
01:48:45,360 --> 01:48:49,560
I, and I think that's by design.
And I think that that, that

1792
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:52,640
there are different flavors of
this thing, so to speak, right?

1793
01:48:53,000 --> 01:48:57,840
And, and I, I think that that
we're uniquely poised today to

1794
01:48:57,840 --> 01:49:05,400
look at this and look, I don't
care who someone voted for, but

1795
01:49:05,400 --> 01:49:08,240
I got news for people, it's not
going to fix everything, right?

1796
01:49:09,600 --> 01:49:12,640
Stop, stop looking to Washington
to solve these things, right?

1797
01:49:12,640 --> 01:49:16,680
This, I hate to break it to us
all, but this stuff, this is

1798
01:49:16,680 --> 01:49:19,960
kind of our realm.
This is where we should be be

1799
01:49:19,960 --> 01:49:21,720
operating.
And, and I think we have a

1800
01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:25,320
responsibility to do so, or at
least look at it and really make

1801
01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:27,720
sure that our hearts are
consecrated as well.

1802
01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:30,840
Yeah.
And and to go back to that

1803
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:33,240
letter.
And the ties that it has to the

1804
01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:37,080
Old Testament in the nation of
Israel and all the things the

1805
01:49:37,080 --> 01:49:41,440
Lord was always trying to do
throughout the Scriptures was

1806
01:49:41,440 --> 01:49:46,960
create a people that recognized
that he was their God, and he

1807
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:49,360
recognized them as his people.
Yeah.

1808
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:51,960
He has set forth the
commandments, He set forth the

1809
01:49:51,960 --> 01:49:54,440
way.
He's given us all the tools.

1810
01:49:55,040 --> 01:49:57,480
What are we waiting for?
Yeah.

1811
01:49:57,760 --> 01:50:00,880
Yeah, and the promises were
amazing that were made in.

1812
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:05,080
There right what was the
promises he'll dwell with us

1813
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:08,440
right he and what are we what's
the point of Zion?

1814
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:12,160
Well, it's a place where God can
come to right it it's a place

1815
01:50:12,160 --> 01:50:16,280
where Jesus can can come and
talk to his people.

1816
01:50:17,760 --> 01:50:22,080
He right down to when Winthrop
says, when we do this, one of

1817
01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:25,720
our men shall or ten of our men
shall be able to withstand 1000

1818
01:50:25,720 --> 01:50:28,720
of our enemies, right?
Very much as I no one's going to

1819
01:50:28,720 --> 01:50:30,120
want to come up in war against
Zion.

1820
01:50:30,120 --> 01:50:32,160
We're told that in the
scriptures, those don't go

1821
01:50:32,160 --> 01:50:33,880
there.
There's, there's, there's no

1822
01:50:33,880 --> 01:50:38,960
hope of looting there, right?
I, I, I really do feel like,

1823
01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:43,360
like that's the key right in all
this.

1824
01:50:44,720 --> 01:50:47,680
And this leads me to something
else.

1825
01:50:47,760 --> 01:50:49,840
And I was wondering if we could
talk about this just for a

1826
01:50:49,840 --> 01:50:56,000
minute, I guess at my.
Heart I would be considered more

1827
01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:57,560
of an independent
fundamentalist.

1828
01:50:57,720 --> 01:51:05,160
Right now there are people that
I go to church with and I

1829
01:51:05,160 --> 01:51:10,600
remember I had to make this
decision pretty quickly, which

1830
01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:14,240
was well, yeah, I could.
I could probably, you know, me

1831
01:51:14,240 --> 01:51:17,280
and my family, we could probably
have a really Zion type family,

1832
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:22,800
but that's not Zion, right?
You need to be able to work with

1833
01:51:22,800 --> 01:51:27,840
other people to create Zion.
And this idea of just being a

1834
01:51:27,840 --> 01:51:32,120
Lone Ranger Mormon, so to speak,
I think you kind of missed the

1835
01:51:32,120 --> 01:51:34,960
mark a little bit, right?
I think you have to be willing

1836
01:51:34,960 --> 01:51:38,160
to work with other people to
bring this about because you

1837
01:51:38,160 --> 01:51:40,320
can't do it by yourself with
just your family.

1838
01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:46,960
Yeah, you know, I think.
It's DNC 42 again, where it

1839
01:51:46,960 --> 01:51:49,080
talks about the gifts and
talents that are given to the

1840
01:51:49,080 --> 01:51:51,160
Saints for the benefit of the
whole.

1841
01:51:51,960 --> 01:51:54,560
And different people have
different gifts and talents.

1842
01:51:54,560 --> 01:51:59,400
And we, we actually need each
other in ways that we cannot

1843
01:51:59,400 --> 01:52:02,360
comprehend.
Now I understand why the

1844
01:52:02,360 --> 01:52:04,720
separations exist.
I grew up in this.

1845
01:52:04,720 --> 01:52:06,800
I was marinated in the history
of my whole life.

1846
01:52:07,320 --> 01:52:10,760
I know why.
But there's still a part of me

1847
01:52:10,760 --> 01:52:15,640
that wishes that we could
actually get past because really

1848
01:52:15,640 --> 01:52:20,280
most of our disagreements
honestly come from leadership

1849
01:52:20,400 --> 01:52:23,160
things.
But if the people could come

1850
01:52:23,160 --> 01:52:27,040
together united in the gospel
and this is just a big dream, I

1851
01:52:27,040 --> 01:52:31,800
guess then we could start to see
some changes.

1852
01:52:32,000 --> 01:52:38,000
But for now, it is hard to be a
Lone Ranger that I, you know,

1853
01:52:38,000 --> 01:52:41,280
I'm, I'm interested in listening
to you because I really don't, I

1854
01:52:41,280 --> 01:52:44,080
don't know what that's like.
In a way, I'm my own person and

1855
01:52:44,080 --> 01:52:47,240
I have my own feelings and they
don't necessarily agree with

1856
01:52:47,240 --> 01:52:51,480
everybody I know.
But I've always had at least,

1857
01:52:51,600 --> 01:52:55,360
you know, my cousins and my
uncles around, right?

1858
01:52:55,360 --> 01:52:58,280
I've always had a little bit of
a community and that community's

1859
01:52:58,280 --> 01:53:02,880
beginning to grow.
But but what really opened my

1860
01:53:02,880 --> 01:53:07,040
eyes on my personal journey was
as we begin to associate with

1861
01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:10,880
other people and see that there
are gifts and talents that that

1862
01:53:10,880 --> 01:53:15,600
people outside of my direct
group or community possess that

1863
01:53:15,600 --> 01:53:20,640
we desperately need.
And the Lord is a uniter, not a

1864
01:53:20,640 --> 01:53:24,600
divider, although He lets people
have their choice.

1865
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:30,440
And Lucifer's done a fantastic
job at telling people that it's

1866
01:53:30,440 --> 01:53:37,400
just too hard work together
because he knows our that could

1867
01:53:37,400 --> 01:53:41,440
come from a Zion community which
shaped the foundation of the

1868
01:53:41,440 --> 01:53:45,480
earth and perhaps bring about
the second coming.

1869
01:53:46,200 --> 01:53:48,560
Absolutely.
And, you know, look.

1870
01:53:52,560 --> 01:53:54,240
Where?
Where I go to church at.

1871
01:53:56,760 --> 01:53:59,880
I I'm richly.
Blessed to just be here, right

1872
01:53:59,880 --> 01:54:03,960
I, I want to get.
That out of the way, but you

1873
01:54:03,960 --> 01:54:09,160
need that community, right?
And I think you can't really be

1874
01:54:09,160 --> 01:54:11,280
fully consecrated without it,
right?

1875
01:54:11,280 --> 01:54:12,680
I think you just need other
people.

1876
01:54:12,680 --> 01:54:16,640
You need to be able to work with
other people and, and the other

1877
01:54:16,640 --> 01:54:18,960
thing is by working with other
people, that's going to shave

1878
01:54:18,960 --> 01:54:21,240
off some of your rough edges,
right?

1879
01:54:21,240 --> 01:54:24,160
Because look, I'm not going to
lie to you, it's hard to work

1880
01:54:24,160 --> 01:54:27,080
with other people, right?
It's hard to work with other

1881
01:54:27,080 --> 01:54:34,560
people at work, right?
But but there is there is value

1882
01:54:34,560 --> 01:54:38,920
in that, Dave, because you know,
I can't be the most pleasant guy

1883
01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:40,240
to be around all the time.
I.

1884
01:54:40,240 --> 01:54:42,080
Understand.
That I'm self aware enough to be

1885
01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:45,920
like, there's a reason both my
wives will make sainthood and

1886
01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:48,000
I'll probably be struggling just
a little bit because they're

1887
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:50,480
going to be Lord's going to be
like, who's your husband?

1888
01:54:50,480 --> 01:54:53,040
And yo, no, just you just go on
through you're fine.

1889
01:54:54,560 --> 01:54:56,680
But but no, we do, we need each
other.

1890
01:54:56,680 --> 01:54:59,680
We need to be able to work
together and figure this all out

1891
01:54:59,720 --> 01:55:03,800
and that, but I don't think that
means that we're we're going to

1892
01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:06,720
always agree on everything
right, right, that's right.

1893
01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:09,720
And and so often, I think,
because we look.

1894
01:55:10,120 --> 01:55:12,080
Look at certain.
Scriptures like the one we just

1895
01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:15,040
read in DNC where what's Zion?
It's people with one heart and

1896
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:17,920
one mind.
I don't necessarily think that

1897
01:55:17,920 --> 01:55:20,080
means, oh, you agree on
everything.

1898
01:55:20,920 --> 01:55:24,920
I tend to think, no, that's the
people that probably have that

1899
01:55:24,920 --> 01:55:27,200
common goal, right?
That's probably where that one

1900
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:31,240
heart and one mind thing come
in, but there's probably some

1901
01:55:31,240 --> 01:55:33,600
differences on how we think we
should get there.

1902
01:55:34,120 --> 01:55:39,120
And can you can you disagree
agreeably enough to hang

1903
01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:44,480
together to work through that
and be able to, to, to be united

1904
01:55:44,480 --> 01:55:47,600
that long, right?
I think Joseph Smith had a quote

1905
01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:51,000
about that, if I'm not mistaken,
where he said something to the

1906
01:55:51,000 --> 01:55:53,480
effect of why haven't we
realized all of our.

1907
01:55:53,480 --> 01:55:55,600
And I'm really paraphrasing here
because I'm trying to remember

1908
01:55:55,600 --> 01:55:56,920
it all.
But basically something to the

1909
01:55:56,920 --> 01:56:00,440
effect of we haven't achieved
all of our blessings because we

1910
01:56:00,440 --> 01:56:03,240
haven't been able to hang out
with each other long enough to

1911
01:56:03,240 --> 01:56:05,840
get them right.
We always just fly apart.

1912
01:56:07,920 --> 01:56:09,320
Yeah.
And there's something to

1913
01:56:09,320 --> 01:56:12,360
consider because.
You know where where plural

1914
01:56:12,360 --> 01:56:18,040
marriage from our experience,
plural marriage will tend to if

1915
01:56:18,280 --> 01:56:20,680
if you know there's all the
qualifications, if lived

1916
01:56:20,680 --> 01:56:23,400
properly, if you have the right
motivation and all the things.

1917
01:56:23,840 --> 01:56:27,600
But if you try to do it right,
it perfects us individually as a

1918
01:56:27,600 --> 01:56:31,680
family, whereas living law of
consecration in United Order

1919
01:56:31,920 --> 01:56:34,920
perfects us as a community
because it's not easier.

1920
01:56:35,520 --> 01:56:38,760
I wouldn't tell someone who has
one wife, oh, go get another one

1921
01:56:38,760 --> 01:56:40,680
because it's so much easier to
live with two than one.

1922
01:56:41,240 --> 01:56:46,520
It's, it's not, it's just not.
But, but if you want your sharp

1923
01:56:46,520 --> 01:56:49,600
edges to be knocked off, you're
going to need to go through some

1924
01:56:49,600 --> 01:56:51,880
things.
And those things will give us

1925
01:56:51,880 --> 01:56:56,720
experience to do us good.
Like the revelation says to

1926
01:56:56,720 --> 01:57:00,560
Joseph, these things will be for
that experience, and they begin

1927
01:57:00,560 --> 01:57:03,680
to shape us into the sort of
people if we don't ever put

1928
01:57:03,680 --> 01:57:08,640
ourselves or in a modern
vernacular, if we never get

1929
01:57:08,640 --> 01:57:13,360
vulnerable enough with each
other, we'll probably never

1930
01:57:13,360 --> 01:57:14,800
expose.
The.

1931
01:57:15,000 --> 01:57:17,480
Hidden parts that need to be
changed.

1932
01:57:18,480 --> 01:57:22,320
These higher laws, if you will,
they're not higher because

1933
01:57:22,320 --> 01:57:25,160
they're higher up on the ladder.
They're higher because they

1934
01:57:25,160 --> 01:57:28,360
strike more intimately at our
problems.

1935
01:57:28,880 --> 01:57:34,280
They're more refining in nature.
And it's not easier.

1936
01:57:34,440 --> 01:57:38,320
It's not easy to do the things
the Lord has done even though or

1937
01:57:38,320 --> 01:57:42,840
said to do, even though it might
be simple, but you can say it

1938
01:57:42,840 --> 01:57:47,720
simply, but it's not necessarily
easier, but the rewards and the

1939
01:57:47,720 --> 01:57:51,560
fruits.
Like you talked to one person

1940
01:57:52,160 --> 01:57:56,520
that has lived plural marriage
and lived it faithfully and

1941
01:57:56,520 --> 01:57:59,480
asked them if you went back to
the beginning, would you do it

1942
01:57:59,480 --> 01:58:02,280
all over again?
They would say every time,

1943
01:58:02,600 --> 01:58:04,720
absolutely.
I do it all over again.

1944
01:58:05,200 --> 01:58:07,520
Yeah.
And I think this is the case

1945
01:58:07,520 --> 01:58:10,080
like I was reading in with.
Orderville some.

1946
01:58:10,080 --> 01:58:12,480
Of these people whose
motivations were probably in the

1947
01:58:12,480 --> 01:58:15,120
right place when the government
said they couldn't do it

1948
01:58:15,120 --> 01:58:18,440
anymore, they went to Mexico and
found a place to do it again

1949
01:58:19,240 --> 01:58:21,960
because I think their hearts
were in the right place.

1950
01:58:21,960 --> 01:58:27,280
And and this this story and
tales of heroism get passed down

1951
01:58:28,120 --> 01:58:32,200
through our generations and we
begin to long for the blessings.

1952
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:36,080
And yeah, we probably need to go
through some of the hard things

1953
01:58:36,080 --> 01:58:39,200
too.
But we're in a place today where

1954
01:58:39,720 --> 01:58:44,880
there is some aspects of living
even, you know, and I don't want

1955
01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:49,240
to say we live the United Order,
like order Bill, but to live so

1956
01:58:49,240 --> 01:58:53,800
law of consecration is true, we
probably need to start assessing

1957
01:58:54,280 --> 01:58:57,760
some of our incorrect traditions
and start dealing with each

1958
01:58:57,760 --> 01:58:59,920
other.
Because really, there's one

1959
01:58:59,920 --> 01:59:02,360
truth.
Yeah, we can disagree on our

1960
01:59:02,360 --> 01:59:07,720
opinions, but there's one truth.
And we're probably not going to

1961
01:59:07,720 --> 01:59:12,280
come to that on our own.
No, but through experience and

1962
01:59:12,480 --> 01:59:16,640
respecting each other, learning
to turn to the Lord.

1963
01:59:16,840 --> 01:59:20,080
I mean, you see this case over
and over with Joseph in in all

1964
01:59:20,080 --> 01:59:22,480
these revelations, especially
around consecration, because

1965
01:59:22,480 --> 01:59:26,360
there's quite a few of them.
You know, I one of these

1966
01:59:26,360 --> 01:59:31,120
stories, I think when he
received section 119, but it

1967
01:59:31,120 --> 01:59:34,440
might have actually been 42.
I think they were having the

1968
01:59:34,440 --> 01:59:37,040
discussion about this law of
consecration.

1969
01:59:37,040 --> 01:59:41,000
I just read and Joseph kneels
down right in front of the

1970
01:59:41,000 --> 01:59:47,680
brethren and starts asking the
Lord, what does this mean?

1971
01:59:48,160 --> 01:59:51,040
And the faith of the brethren
was there and he receives this

1972
01:59:51,040 --> 01:59:52,680
revelation right in front of
them.

1973
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:59,080
Now, there's a person who knew
how to get the answer, and he

1974
01:59:59,080 --> 02:00:00,800
only did that through
experience.

1975
02:00:01,160 --> 02:00:06,320
Now, a lot of it packed into a
short time, but he did it.

1976
02:00:06,600 --> 02:00:08,800
And we could say he was
foreordained.

1977
02:00:08,800 --> 02:00:12,480
We can say he was given the the
abilities to do the work for his

1978
02:00:12,480 --> 02:00:14,920
time.
We were given the abilities to

1979
02:00:14,920 --> 02:00:18,280
do the work for our time,
absolutely, and the Lord is

1980
02:00:18,280 --> 02:00:21,320
holding that and saying.
Please step.

1981
02:00:21,320 --> 02:00:23,880
Up to the mark and I will bless
you.

1982
02:00:23,880 --> 02:00:28,040
And I believe it's a promise to
each of us the same as it was

1983
02:00:28,240 --> 02:00:30,800
for all generations of time,
right?

1984
02:00:31,560 --> 02:00:34,040
Even the Savior said the stuff
that you just saw me do.

1985
02:00:34,040 --> 02:00:36,840
You're going to do more.
We're going to do more.

1986
02:00:37,160 --> 02:00:41,400
If if the savior says that to
us, I don't think it's fair for

1987
02:00:41,400 --> 02:00:42,720
us to look at Joseph Smith and
go.

1988
02:00:42,720 --> 02:00:44,800
We'll never we we can't, we
can't get there.

1989
02:00:44,800 --> 02:00:47,960
It's impossible, right?
The only thing that makes it

1990
02:00:47,960 --> 02:00:51,720
impossible, I think is our own,
our own weaknesses and, and in

1991
02:00:51,720 --> 02:00:56,280
my case, probably my own
laziness right there.

1992
02:00:56,320 --> 02:00:57,360
There.
Yeah.

1993
02:00:57,720 --> 02:01:00,720
No, Absolutely.
Is there anything else you want

1994
02:01:00,720 --> 02:01:01,440
to cover?
We didn't.

1995
02:01:01,440 --> 02:01:05,520
Dave.
No, I'm sure in about an hour

1996
02:01:05,520 --> 02:01:07,880
I'll be like.
Should have talked about.

1997
02:01:07,880 --> 02:01:10,920
Oh, should have talked about.
We've had a great conversation.

1998
02:01:10,920 --> 02:01:13,320
So I can't think of anything off
the top of my head.

1999
02:01:13,600 --> 02:01:15,000
Perfect.
Well, if you think of something,

2000
02:01:15,240 --> 02:01:16,960
hit me up.
This will be released on

2001
02:01:16,960 --> 02:01:19,200
Saturday.
So if we had to hop on tomorrow

2002
02:01:19,200 --> 02:01:21,000
and add something, let me know.
We can do that.

2003
02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:24,640
OK, Perfect.
Awesome dude, You're the man

2004
02:01:24,680 --> 02:01:25,600
and.
Look.

2005
02:01:25,680 --> 02:01:28,320
Once once you once you've been
on once, bud, you can come back

2006
02:01:28,320 --> 02:01:30,160
on whenever you want.
You studying something and

2007
02:01:30,160 --> 02:01:31,720
you're like, oh, I want to talk
about this.

2008
02:01:31,720 --> 02:01:33,600
You let me know.
We'll we'll get you back on.

2009
02:01:34,120 --> 02:01:36,640
You might come to regret that.
I doubt it.

2010
02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:38,840
I doubt it.
I mean, wait.

2011
02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:42,880
What what what's better for
people than to hang out with two

2012
02:01:42,880 --> 02:01:45,440
guys named Dave?
I mean, nothing, nothing.

2013
02:01:45,440 --> 02:01:47,800
That's the best.
It's it's absolutely the best.

2014
02:01:48,080 --> 02:01:49,480
SO.
Daves are just good guys.

2015
02:01:49,560 --> 02:01:54,280
Yes, absolutely.
Well, dude, it was fun.

2016
02:01:55,520 --> 02:01:56,000
All right?
Awesome.

2017
02:01:56,000 --> 02:01:58,320
Just 5 minutes.
All right.

2018
02:01:58,640 --> 02:02:31,280
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2019
02:02:31,280 --> 02:02:32,680
Renegade podcast.