Episode #170: Out Of The Darkness & Into The Light W/Ammon Jeffs

1
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,680
The.
You're listening to the Mormon

2
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:41,840
Renegade podcast.
So I do this podcast and every

3
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:47,000
once in a while, I shouldn't say
once in a while, quite often I

4
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,520
get the feeling I'm dealing in
things way larger than I am.

5
00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,920
And this is going to be one of
those episodes that I feel like

6
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,760
are, are going to kind of be
touchstone moments here for us

7
00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,640
as Mormons, no matter where you
are, whether you're you're LDS

8
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,920
or whether you're a member of a
fundamentalist group or an

9
00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,400
independent.
I, I feel like this is one of

10
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,760
those stories and, and a
conversation that that we're

11
00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,080
going to be able to extract a
lot from.

12
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,920
Today's guest is, is Ammon
Jeffs, and he's the son of

13
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,480
Warren Jeffs.
And I feel like he not only does

14
00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,720
his story need to be told, but I
think he's got some things that

15
00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:35,240
we can all learn from on how to
preserve faith even when things

16
00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,920
you seem to go completely off
the rails.

17
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,840
So, Ammon, again, I can't, I
can't tell you how much I I

18
00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,640
appreciate you reaching out and
dropping me that e-mail.

19
00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,560
It means more.
More than you know, Sir.

20
00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,920
Thanks for having me on, and
it's been real privileged to

21
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,960
listen to the podcasts the last
year and a half or so.

22
00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,280
Well, I, I, I appreciate that.
So, so real quick, you're you're

23
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:10,479
the son of Warren Jeffs.
Yes, I was born 1990 so that was

24
00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:17,360
a few years after the groups and
short trick could split and my

25
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,680
grandfather was the leader the
time I was born and my father

26
00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,360
was just an elder in the group.
OK.

27
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,320
Was this back when he was
teaching teaching school like in

28
00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,520
Sandy in that area or?
Yes, he's where he's out, like

29
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,600
Academy days in Sandy.
And how long did you live in

30
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,520
Sandy before you guys moved out
to Short Creek permanently?

31
00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,320
I was eight years old when we
moved out and we didn't really

32
00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:50,400
come back up to the Salt Lake
area after that once we moved to

33
00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,560
the Creek in 98.
Gotcha.

34
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,320
Now if I'm not mistaken, when
you guys move down there, it was

35
00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,960
kind of the idea that hey, the
the end times are getting close

36
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,400
and and you guys wanted to kind
of hunker down out there.

37
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,960
Is that kind of the general gist
of of what spurred the moving

38
00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,560
everyone down there?
Yeah.

39
00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:16,040
So I think it started with Leroy
Jones and saying that he felt

40
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,600
like the end times had come
around the year 2000.

41
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,120
And that was really emphasized
as I was growing up.

42
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:28,640
So my father, who was the first
counselor, because they had set

43
00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:33,600
up a church and made his father
president and him first

44
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,920
counselor, Fred Jessup, the
second counselor, He really

45
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,000
pushed the idea that around the
year 2000, the judgments would

46
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,720
come.
This country would fall apart

47
00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,360
and you needed to be in Short
Creek.

48
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,120
And maybe if you were somewhere
else or were supposed to be

49
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,760
somewhere else, you would be
lifted up and sat down in Short

50
00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,160
Creek.
But that was a lot of why

51
00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,680
everyone moved down there.
Gotcha.

52
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,880
And do you remember that time?
Do you remember moving down

53
00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,400
there and stuff?
Yes, very much.

54
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,520
I remember that we were told
that my grandfather wanted us to

55
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,040
move down and this was just a
few months after he had had a

56
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,160
stroke and been quite
incapacitated.

57
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,680
And it my father really kind of
took over at that time of the

58
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:30,240
major decisions of what went on.
So what was it mostly his

59
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,720
decision?
I believe it was more than my

60
00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:39,280
grandfather's, but I was A and I
remember really well moving to

61
00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:43,280
Short Crick and as a child, I
thought it was great fun, but we

62
00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:45,480
were moving to a new place.
Sure.

63
00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,760
Kind of an adventure, right?
I mean, Yep, I, I moved my kids

64
00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,200
across the country a couple of
times, right?

65
00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,800
Once we moved from, from from
Boise out to Maryland and then

66
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,400
back and then to North Dakota.
So yeah, for the littler kids,

67
00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,600
it's always kind of a kind of an
adventure, right?

68
00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,480
We're going to go, we're going
to see some stuff.

69
00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,800
So when, when you got down
there, what would you think when

70
00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,240
you got there?
We, for the most part, got

71
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,520
involved with the community,
especially I I'm my father's

72
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,560
third son, so I have two
brothers just older than me.

73
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,200
And we would go to the community
zoo every Saturday, clean out

74
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,440
the animal pens, or go work in
the big community garden that

75
00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:33,960
was in the center of town or any
work project on Saturday because

76
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,680
the community banded together
for work projects.

77
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,200
And in those days, then
everything seemed pretty chill

78
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,040
there in the Creek.
When we first moved down there

79
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,440
was a lot more events in the
community, celebrations for

80
00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,720
things like the 4th of July or
the Harvest Vest Festival in the

81
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,560
fall.
Other celebrations.

82
00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,760
The 24th we had a parade in
town.

83
00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,720
Us older boys joined the
marching boys that was there in

84
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:10,320
Short Creek, so I quite enjoyed
that as a young boy.

85
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:12,720
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

86
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,840
And then growing up, those first
eight years of your life is

87
00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:19,960
urine Sandy, What were those
years like in comparison?

88
00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,760
I don't remember anything
strange or bad myself when I was

89
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,240
growing up.
I didn't know what was going on

90
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,000
in the dark corners.
But for me it was just fun

91
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,560
because we had the mountain
right across the street and then

92
00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:38,920
school was next door at my
grandfather's the private

93
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,960
school.
So to me it was a pretty I'm

94
00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:48,720
relaxed and fun life as a child.
OK, so you get to Short Creek

95
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,720
and everything seems really cool
right there.

96
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,560
You said, you said at first
everything's going really well.

97
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,840
You, you're involved with the
community.

98
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,280
When when's the first time you
can remember feeling like, OK,

99
00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:06,080
something's different now
something, something has

100
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,920
changed, right?
Does that making sense?

101
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,600
Yeah.
So of course, the first year we

102
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,440
moved down, the one strange
thing that happened was my

103
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,800
father got 10 new wives that
year.

104
00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,480
So we had seven mothers when we
moved down in the end of 98.

105
00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,680
And by the end of 99, we had 17.
And that seemed a little bit

106
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,400
strange to me, but I was still
nine years old, so I didn't

107
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:35,320
think a lot about it.
And things really picked up at

108
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,240
the time.
My grandfather died in 2002,

109
00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:44,640
September 2002, and when he had
passed away, everyone had been

110
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:51,560
told for years and years by my
father and other men that my

111
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,840
grandfather would be totally
renewed and made into a young

112
00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,840
person again and he would be the
last prophet.

113
00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,520
And I I suppose you understand
in the FLDS that those men were

114
00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,440
considered the prophet like as
much as Russell Nelson is

115
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,440
considered the Prophet and Neil
DS Church.

116
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,880
Right, it's a it's a one man
kind of a thing right there.

117
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:19,640
There's one man in the whole
thing and and you know, almost

118
00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,000
approaching godhood, right If if
that's not.

119
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,160
Correct.
Oh, very much so, and we'll get

120
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,800
into that later.
OK, All right.

121
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,040
So you you see this start to
happen.

122
00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,320
Does it just feel weird or does
it start taking on kind of a

123
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,880
darker feeling?
So I was 12 at the time and

124
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:45,640
barely been ordained a Deacon.
And when my father took over, he

125
00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,880
had other people stand up in
church and bear testimony that

126
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,480
his father had appointed him.
And they used, I think it's

127
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:58,520
Section 43 of the Doctrine and
Covenants that where it says to

128
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,840
Joseph Smith, if he wasn't
faithful, he would appoint

129
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,400
another in his stead and saying
that one prophet appoints the

130
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,120
next one before he dies.
And at first, it seemed like

131
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,760
quite an enthusiastic feeling
spread throughout the community.

132
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,680
I know there were members that
didn't like it and kind of went

133
00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:22,920
away to with a group in Canada
with Winston Blackmore.

134
00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,200
But for the most part, the
community became quite

135
00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,800
enthusiastic with this new
prophet.

136
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:34,600
And he was young and he did a
pretty good job of trying to put

137
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,320
it across to the people that he
was almost a replica of Joseph

138
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,800
Smith.
And within a few months he

139
00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,440
started receiving revelations
and reading them to the people

140
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,240
and started to really set things
in order with the church.

141
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,200
So he appointed a high council,
he appointed a presiding Bishop,

142
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,160
he appointed a presiding
patriarch.

143
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:06,680
And everyone seemed to think
that work of God's moving

144
00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:12,200
forward, the church is being set
in order, and maybe the Prophet

145
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,480
Joseph's coming to Warren and
telling him what to do.

146
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,560
That was a feeling I remember
among the people.

147
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:27,080
And in the middle of 2003, then
he suddenly shut the meetings

148
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:34,200
down because the people had made
a slideshow about the 53 raid

149
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:42,040
and built a monument, Uncle Roy.
And for whatever reason, that

150
00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,880
offended him.
And he came out with a

151
00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,560
revelation of God was angry with
the people and he shut the

152
00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:51,120
meetings down completely.
Well, what we didn't know at the

153
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,560
time was he was already
traveling throughout the United

154
00:10:54,560 --> 00:11:01,920
States and buying land to start
new communities, and his

155
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,160
intention was to abandon Short
Creek in the long run.

156
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,720
Really, where was Texas?
Always the the spot in mind.

157
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:16,600
He started with Colorado, small
place in Colorado, about 140

158
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,800
acres, and then he bought Texas
and that place up by Pringle,

159
00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,800
South Dakota.
So he had three places purchased

160
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:32,280
in pretty short order and then
he gathered up men and some

161
00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:37,120
women that he felt like were the
most trustable of the community.

162
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,800
And he would give him quite a
like an 8 hour.

163
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,000
I can't say for sure how long
the training was, but it was

164
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,080
quite a long training process
that he would run people through

165
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,760
before he let them come to those
places.

166
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:57,280
And he told them, anybody that
went there, that this was the

167
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,120
redemption of Zion starting
again where Joseph Smith left

168
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,240
off.
So this was supposed to be a

169
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,640
preparatory work to the people
going back to Jackson County,

170
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:14,840
Missouri, and a place where he
claimed the Lord would gather

171
00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,920
whoever was faithful.
And he also told us as people

172
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,840
went there, that Shortcrick
would be driven.

173
00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,960
In other words, the FLDS and
Short Crick would be driven out

174
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,560
of Short Crick like the Saints
were in the old days by the

175
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:36,080
Missourians in Missouri.
So he said it would be mobs,

176
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,680
killings, all, all the things
that happened in Joseph's day.

177
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,280
And he he gave revelations to
the people to prove it, because

178
00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:50,440
that of course, would bring his
word to people without question

179
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:51,920
if he could come with a
revelation.

180
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,440
Gotcha, gotcha.
So, so he's, he sounds like

181
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,520
he's, he's already starting to
try to consolidate power right

182
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,480
now at this point.
I do have a couple of questions

183
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,600
going back.
What was your relationship with

184
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,600
your dad prior to this time?
Right.

185
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,560
Was, was, was, was the
relationship good?

186
00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:18,680
I mean, what how would you
describe the your relationship

187
00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:21,960
with your father during those
years prior to him taking over

188
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,560
the reins of power in the NFLDS
church?

189
00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:31,680
So before he became the first
counselor, then I feel like I

190
00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:34,000
had a really good relationship
with him.

191
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:38,680
And even after, up until the
time my grandfather died, I felt

192
00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:43,480
like my relationship was pretty
good and I wouldn't say that I

193
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,120
had the chance to be as close to
him as I would like to.

194
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,960
I remember always wishing I
could have a closer relationship

195
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,160
with my father and I didn't know
why I didn't.

196
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,480
I couldn't get closer than I
was.

197
00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,200
And it's it's taken finding out
everything that was going on to

198
00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,040
bring that to my understanding.
Gotcha.

199
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:08,920
He he put the responsibility of
a child parent relationship on

200
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,120
the child, not the parent.
And so he made it my

201
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,360
responsibility to get close to
him, and it wasn't his to get

202
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:22,800
close to me as his son.
But I didn't know what to do to

203
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,800
make it better.
I don't feel like he didn't love

204
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,280
me as a child, but I felt like I
had a father until I was about

205
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,480
12 years old and then he was
gone most the time after that.

206
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,560
Gotcha.
That must that is such a crazy

207
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:46,360
thought that you know that that
it's your responsibility to go

208
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,160
seek out a relationship with
your father, right?

209
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,720
I mean, I understand big
families.

210
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,520
I'm a proponent of big families,
obviously, but putting that on a

211
00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,480
kid, that's, that's rough stuff,
bro.

212
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:05,400
Holy cow.
OK, So, and, and this question

213
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,480
here, you know, and then I'll
let you pick up with your story

214
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,160
again.
So you talked about the the

215
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,200
thing about where, where he was
kind of upset that they had

216
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,880
built a memorial to, to Leroy
Johnson, right.

217
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,960
By all accounts, seems like a
guy who really loved his people,

218
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:29,200
right.
I'm curious what was, what was

219
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:34,840
your dad's relationship in terms
of teaching other from other

220
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,920
prophets words, right?
Would he go back to your dad

221
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,520
much?
Would he go back to Joseph,

222
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,000
Oregon Brigham or John Taylor?
What?

223
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,520
What was he teaching regularly
from those from those those

224
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,360
guys's teachings?
Yeah.

225
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,280
So he he predominantly taught
from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young

226
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,320
and then Leroy Johnson and his
father rather than Jess, those

227
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,240
were.
And he quoted them all the time.

228
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,080
Like he teaches with their
words.

229
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,440
Most of the time his sermons are
reading some of their words and

230
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,120
then expounding on them and then
reading more of that and

231
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,240
expounding on them.
And you can listen to a sermon

232
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,800
he gives and be like, oh, that
sounds really good.

233
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:22,200
That sounds like the gospel.
And it's just the little things

234
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,760
you slip in there that give him
power to decide everything in

235
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,440
your life.
And he can take a quote from

236
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,840
Joseph Smith or Brigham Young,
and especially to a people that

237
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,880
he's taught to not question what
he says.

238
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,360
Then he can tell them what they
meant when they gave that sermon

239
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,080
or that revelation in the 30
days.

240
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,000
Gotcha, gotcha.
Let let me ask you this question

241
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,160
because you said something else
that was kind of interesting.

242
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,280
You said that he had taught them
not really to question him,

243
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,040
right?
He had taught the people to

244
00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,000
question him.
Do you feel like that's

245
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,240
something that he inherited from
his dad or his dad inherited

246
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,720
from somebody else?
What what's your thoughts on

247
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,599
that?
Where's that come from?

248
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:09,960
Well, if his dad gets it from
somebody else, it would be from

249
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,319
the church when he was in the
church.

250
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:19,680
And so Leroy Johnson would say,
if what we say at the pulpit

251
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,960
doesn't square with the three in
one, a commandment, doctrine and

252
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,359
covenants for a great price and
you can throw it out.

253
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,080
And he didn't really stick with
that.

254
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,280
He said what the prophet says is
the word of God and you

255
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,440
shouldn't question it.
And that's still a big thing in

256
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,240
the FLDS.
Are you, if you start to voice a

257
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,640
disagreement about something
that's said by him, and the

258
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,600
first thing another member will
ask you is are you questioning

259
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:49,000
the prophet?
OK, OK, so, so it sounds like

260
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,600
Leroy Johnson starts out by, YK,
make sure everything is squares

261
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,440
with the scriptures.
And then by the time it gets to

262
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,760
your dad, if I'm understanding
correctly, and please correct me

263
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,360
if I'm wrong here, by the time
it gets to your dad, it's hey,

264
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,600
if the prophet says this is the
way it is, this is the way it

265
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,200
is, you don't have to question
anymore because the answer's

266
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,720
here.
Correct.

267
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,200
And he, he pushed that really
hard in his Father's Day too.

268
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,680
OK, so my generation has grown
up with that.

269
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,240
I got their whole life.
That's all they know.

270
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,160
I got you.
So questioning is not only is it

271
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,320
is it looked down upon, it's
probably pretty scary for your

272
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,880
generation, right?
It probably is like the major

273
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,400
sign to apostasy.
I'd imagine that's how they

274
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:38,440
would look.
At that.

275
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,600
Yeah, absolutely.
And you could also be sent away

276
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,880
if you ask their own questions.
So there's a lot of implications

277
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,760
if you start asking questions.
Gotcha.

278
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:49,440
Gotcha.
OK.

279
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,640
So we talked here just a second
about about Warren Jeffs going

280
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,520
out and buying other properties
and getting telling every, you

281
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,840
know, telling his I guess kind
of his inner circle or the

282
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,480
people he felt would be most
loyal to him.

283
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,080
If that's a correct assessment
there that hey, we're we're

284
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,600
getting ready to to cut for the
really rough times to right

285
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,960
before we go back to Jackson
County and those sorts of

286
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,280
things.
What happens next?

287
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:16,720
What's the progression of
things?

288
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:25,760
So I came to Texas in July of
2004 and my mother had had

289
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,920
cancer.
I don't remember exactly when

290
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:35,680
she got it, but she had had it
for over a year, breast cancer,

291
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:41,240
and he had taken her children
from her in November of all

292
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,120
three.
She didn't know where they went

293
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,440
or anything, but a few of us
older ones stayed there in the

294
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,280
Creek with her.
She went there in June of all

295
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,040
four and then I followed in
July.

296
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,360
OK.
And she died the night I got

297
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,040
there in Texas.
So sorry.

298
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:06,240
So it was kind of a rough start
when I went there.

299
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:12,040
Oh, yeah.
But he put me on a work crew

300
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,440
right away.
I had to listen to all the

301
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,840
trainings he had given to the
people that were living down

302
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,120
there and then be on the work
crew.

303
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,320
And so I'm 14 at this time.
And the way he operated was he

304
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,280
would give building projects,
whether it was a home or a

305
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,520
meetinghouse, eventually the
temple and give a time it had to

306
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,720
be accomplished in.
And his his time schedules were

307
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,480
extremely tight.
So you'd have a house and it

308
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,120
would have to be done in a
month.

309
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,200
And these are originally we kind
of started with 7500 square foot

310
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,000
houses, but some of them are way
bigger than that.

311
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:59,520
And if you didn't meet the time
schedule he sat, he would claim

312
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,680
that God's condemnation would be
upon us.

313
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:07,280
And he would tell us that God
was so angry with us he was

314
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,920
about to destroy us from out the
face of the earth, but that he

315
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,120
would pray to God to give us
another chance and would atone

316
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:20,040
for us.
And 1st, I didn't understand

317
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:25,640
what he meant by that until
probably December of O four, he

318
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:31,400
called a special meeting and
taught what he called the

319
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,960
doctrine of him atoning for us.
And basically what he claimed

320
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,960
was in his capacity, he was
suffering the same type of

321
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:45,160
suffering Jesus was when he was
on the cross for the people if

322
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:46,680
they didn't do things just
right.

323
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,640
So he claimed he's going through
terrible pain every time we did

324
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,680
something wrong because if he
didn't, then God would destroy

325
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,800
this.
And to this day, the that

326
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,000
doctrine spread among pretty
much all the FLDS people.

327
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,760
At first it was just the people
on these places, he called them

328
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,760
places of refuge.
And it spread to everyone hears

329
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,560
that kind of stuff now.
And they think that this man is

330
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,760
suffering like a savior for him.
And that's even why he's in

331
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,240
prison.
They hear it all the time.

332
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,400
They're not worthy for him to
come out and he so he's

333
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:31,480
suffering for them still.
Man, that is, that is rough.

334
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:36,640
I mean it, it's rough on a
couple accounts, right, Ammon,

335
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,520
because I mean, on one account,
it's like, if you don't mean a

336
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,680
deadline, you're you're fearing
the wrath of God come upon you,

337
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,200
right?
I mean, and then, and then also

338
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,920
he's kind of putting himself in
the not kind of he's absolutely

339
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,960
putting himself in the place of
the Savior, right?

340
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,720
Which is kind of concerning,
right?

341
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,880
Because you start looking at it
and you're like, OK, well, if

342
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,960
he's suffering like the Savior,
does that mean he has the same

343
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:11,200
authority as the Savior, right?
Does he have that same ability

344
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:15,200
to to dictate, right?
I mean, that really opens up the

345
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,200
door for some stuff, right?
Right, right.

346
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,960
And, and I'll say the dark
things he was doing there was

347
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,880
very secretive and restricted to
the very few people in his inner

348
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,240
circle.
I'm talking even in his own

349
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,840
family.
So just the wives or whoever he

350
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,000
was involved with in the things
people have probably seen on the

351
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,160
Internet in his trial and all
that was very secretive.

352
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,920
So the people in general in
those places didn't know all

353
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,280
that was going on except the he
would take those very young

354
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,240
girls and say that God had
commanded him to marry them.

355
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,720
So that's another thing that was
going on at the same time as we

356
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,160
were building these places.
And it was only known to the

357
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,440
people on those places that he
did that.

358
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:10,200
And even to this day, I would
say the general people in the

359
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:15,360
FLDS think that he took these
young girls as wives just to

360
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:18,960
protect them.
And he actually wasn't living

361
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,840
with them as wives.
And I've heard people say that

362
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,920
clear up until I left.
So what he did and was doing is

363
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,720
still pretty secret from the
FLDS people in general.

364
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,800
So is that where you spent the
remainder remainder of your time

365
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,160
while you were in the FLDS is
down in Texas?

366
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,880
So we were there, I went there
in O four and then we had the

367
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,480
raid in 2008 and we kind of
gathered back there in about a

368
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:57,240
year after the raid.
And I was down there until 2012.

369
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,040
In 2012.
Then the state of Texas has

370
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,040
filed a case to take the land
away from him because I believe

371
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:13,040
that he was on the trust name.
So they they filed the case and

372
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:18,040
he didn't fight it.
And in 2014, they seized that

373
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,360
whole community down there and
they've since auctioned it off

374
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,680
to a law enforcement training
group.

375
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,200
So that's all I choose for it
this time.

376
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,520
It's inaccessible unless you're
law enforcement going there for

377
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,480
training at this time.
Gotcha.

378
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:40,000
So we left there in 2012 to
2014, and then he had a place in

379
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,800
South Dakota and Colorado and I
spent time at those places also.

380
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,680
Hold on one second.
I want, I want to ask a question

381
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,120
about, about the raids, right?
Is it, and let me ask, ask you

382
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:53,320
this.
We, we, we, we kind of stopped

383
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,120
there for a minute while I asked
questions about, you know, your

384
00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,120
time on a work crew and that
sort of thing.

385
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:01,960
I want to stop there for a
minute because it's from, from

386
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,560
the way you described it, you
got down there, your mom dies

387
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,400
the night you get there and then
is it like the next day you're

388
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,840
on a work crew?
Yes.

389
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:15,320
Did your father, like, try to
come to you and comfort you or

390
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,720
anything like that after your
mom died?

391
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,840
I mean, did he make any sort of
overtures or gestures to you?

392
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,680
No, he he didn't really didn't
have much time to talk to him at

393
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,560
all after that.
And then he laughed like the

394
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:36,160
next day.
Well, I see she died and they

395
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,680
got her body right.
He had the funeral the next day,

396
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:44,280
buried her and he.
Left and and what are you

397
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,640
thinking at this point?
I mean, how I mean, dude, that's

398
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,240
a lot right?
You, you, you have left, you

399
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,240
know, realistically, you, you
said you went to Texas when you

400
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,560
were 14.
Is that correct?

401
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,040
Yes.
OK, so you leave when you're

402
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:09,000
you're 14, Short Creek and you
you get there, your mom passes.

403
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,800
You don't have much time to talk
to your dad.

404
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,920
You're put on a work crew
immediately.

405
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:15,960
What?
What's going through your mind

406
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,840
at this point?
So let's back up just a little

407
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,360
bit.
Yeah, when he took when he took

408
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,800
my younger siblings in November
and took him to those places, he

409
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,720
told the rest of us that we had
to qualified to be there.

410
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,920
We had to repent of our shams
and he had to have God

411
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,560
personally tell him we could go
there.

412
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,520
And he brought me down to a city
nearby to see my mother because

413
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,640
she was in the hospital.
And then he told me I had to go

414
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,280
back to Short Creek and she was
going to die.

415
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:54,840
So when I was about halfway back
to Short Creek, he calls and

416
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,880
says the Lord's name, you to
come there.

417
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,280
And so we turned around and we
had about 9 hours to drive to

418
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,040
get back to Texas to his place
there so I could see her before

419
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,200
she died.
And when I got there, she was

420
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,280
unconscious.
So I actually didn't get to

421
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,680
speak to her again after I got
there.

422
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,080
I'm so sorry.
So.

423
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,120
So once your mom passes, you're
in Texas.

424
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:25,280
What?
What are you thinking?

425
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,160
I mean, what?
What's going through your mind

426
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:33,320
as this is happening?
Losing her was really hard, but

427
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,000
I was happy that I finally got
to come there.

428
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,520
And that's where most of my
family was at that point, and my

429
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,240
siblings were all there.
And then of course, we've been

430
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,880
taught it's such a great
privilege to come work on a

431
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,960
place like that to help build up
Zion.

432
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,840
And I didn't even have a whole
lot of time to sit there and

433
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,560
think about the loss of my
mother because I was put on the

434
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,640
work crew and he had some really
tight schedules set up.

435
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:07,720
And we were working from about
6:00 AM till 2 the next morning.

436
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,440
That was a schedule and I got
there.

437
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,160
Holy cow, so you're like working
20 hours a day, literally.

438
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:22,680
Correct.
Yes, and it was so.

439
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:24,640
Oh, go ahead.
Sorry, Ammon.

440
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,960
No, no, the work, the work
schedules were so intense that

441
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,280
it was like that for two years
after I got there, 2 1/2 years

442
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,800
or so.
So you really have no time to

443
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:42,040
process any of this.
No, that that time is just a

444
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,680
jumble of deadlines.
That's what I remember it as.

445
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,440
Hardly any sleep and a teenager,
you know, teenager.

446
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,840
Teenagers sleep like a rock.
But I didn't get hardly any

447
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,800
sleep until I was 16.
Then we got to go to bed at 11,

448
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,360
about the time I turned 16.
Gotcha, gotcha.

449
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,520
What was, what was, what was
your dad's?

450
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,200
What would your dad tell you
about the outside world, right?

451
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,320
What would he say first about
the world in general?

452
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,840
And then two, what would he,
what would he say about other

453
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,880
fundamentalists, right, other
Mormons?

454
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,880
What what were some of his takes
on that?

455
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:28,000
Of course the outside world was,
he told us, was very wicked and

456
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,840
was seeking our destruction and
that was their aim and goal, he

457
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,680
said.
The government powers in the

458
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:40,120
apostates were out to kill him
and he was supposed to hide from

459
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,400
the law because if they took
him, they would kill him.

460
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,840
Some other fundamentalists and
LDS any, any other

461
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,680
fundamentalists, he considers
them apostate to this day.

462
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,680
And don't talk to him, don't
listen to him.

463
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,680
They're all apostate.
We're the one true church and

464
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,640
the LES church has been apostate
since 1890.

465
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:06,080
So that's how they're looked
upon to this day in the by the

466
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,000
FLDS.
And that's the reason you don't

467
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,200
really have FLDS associated with
anybody outside of the FLDS,

468
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,040
because all other groups where
individuals are considered

469
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:25,560
apostates.
Right, OK boy, I'm sorry.

470
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:33,280
I'm trying to digest all this.
I want to back up to the raids

471
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,800
as well.
Did you guys know that the raids

472
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,640
were coming at all?
I mean, because like, I can tell

473
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,520
you that in those days, I
remember hearing about it in the

474
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,560
news even before the raids,
right there were, there were

475
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,800
rumblings that things were,
were, were going on, so to

476
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,240
speak.
Did you guys, you know the

477
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,040
general population of the
church, did you guys have any

478
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,480
feeling or any idea of what was
coming with those raids?

479
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:02,920
The raid was quite a surprise to
me.

480
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,360
I don't remember us even being
worried it was going to happen.

481
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,320
My father said you before that
he thought the government would

482
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,080
come against us and try to come
on the land.

483
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:20,000
But then he went to prison and
we kind of thought that would be

484
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,440
would be over because the real
reason for them to come before

485
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,320
that was because he was running
from the law and was on FBI's

486
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,240
most wanted list.
And that didn't happen.

487
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,600
He was caught in Nevada.
Right.

488
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,800
OK.
What was what?

489
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,480
What was it like to have to go
through those raids?

490
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,400
We thought it was persecution,
the world coming against the

491
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,600
church trying to destroy us, and
we were trying to live a form of

492
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,000
the United Order there.
So we felt like because he had

493
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,600
taught us that if we tried to
live the United Order, the devil

494
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,760
would come against us harder.
And we felt like it was an

495
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,120
effort on the government's part
to destroy the fundamentalist

496
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,600
movement.
We really didn't think of

497
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,840
anybody else as fundamentalist
but ourselves.

498
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,080
Gotcha.
Because everyone else is

499
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:22,280
considered an apostate.
Right, so it's the picture the

500
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,560
the tables have been set so to
speak, right?

501
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,960
It is that the entire outside
world is wicked.

502
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,360
Those other Mormons that profess
to be Mormon?

503
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,040
They're apostates.
The only true believers are

504
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:41,520
situated on these various FLDS
owned compounds, correct?

505
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,720
Correct.
And Shortcrick was, he said it

506
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,600
was cursed.
He even went there and did some

507
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:56,120
sort of ordinance to curse up or
to wash his feet against it and

508
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,000
said everyone would be driven
from there.

509
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,240
The only safe place would be
these lands.

510
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,480
And so Shortrick was looked down
upon too, especially if you were

511
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,760
on one of these lands that he
had bought.

512
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:14,120
And so the raid that we felt
like they were coming against

513
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,480
this new work that had been
started.

514
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,239
OK.
And that's an interesting

515
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,120
thought.
So a, a new work that has

516
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:28,239
started.
So, so he's really trying to to

517
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,080
kind of show that, hey,
everything that's been done up

518
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,719
to this point is something
different.

519
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,040
We're doing something new now.
Is that kind of the way it felt?

520
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,600
Correct.
OK.

521
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,719
And this was this was eventually
supposed to be where all the

522
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,080
faithful, the FLDS would be.
And you can see we built a

523
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,800
temple in Texas and that was the
biggest place and we had a

524
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,960
constant manufacturer of homes
going on there, new homes.

525
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,000
We had over 25 before we left
there.

526
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:03,600
Wow.
And so basically anyone left in

527
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,800
Short Creek, you could look the
rest of the the membership would

528
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,080
probably kind of look, look down
their nose at them because if

529
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,760
you were righteous according to
the idea, you would be on one of

530
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,840
these other properties.
That's correct.

531
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,640
And the the ironic thing about
the whole thing is those places

532
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,280
only existed because of the
people in Short Creek who are

533
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,400
out working on jobs and sending
money because these places are

534
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,480
not self-sufficient at all.
They were completely funded by

535
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,680
the donations of members of the
church that were not there.

536
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,560
That's the only way they
existed, and that's millions and

537
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,360
millions of dollars.
Holy cow.

538
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:52,080
So not only is not only are they
being looked down upon by

539
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,360
leadership and probably others
that were there right and and

540
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,720
I'm not casting judgment on
those members who were in those

541
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:04,080
other other lands, so to speak,
there in Texas and Colorado and

542
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,240
and South Dakota, but all but
because they don't know any

543
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,080
different, right?
They're just doing what they've

544
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,680
been told, but so not only are
the people back in Short Creek

545
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,720
being looked down upon, but
they're the ones funding the

546
00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:20,480
whole process.
That's correct.

547
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:29,280
The irony.
OK, so, so when the raids

548
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,880
happen, what's your response?
What do you do?

549
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,200
Are you, is everybody pretty
compliant?

550
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,880
I mean, with, with the, the,
the, the law enforcement that's

551
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,240
coming in, what, what's the
general feel there of everyone

552
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,120
else?
I mean, is it just pandemonium?

553
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:45,920
What?
What happens as they come in?

554
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,840
So we cooperated with the
officers once they show the

555
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:57,520
search warrant and they first
came on, CPS came and started

556
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,320
interviewing the teenage girls.
They didn't search anything

557
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,480
right away and I don't know what
the original warrants were and

558
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,360
all that.
They obtained additional

559
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:13,080
warrants while they were there
and the second day they started

560
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,200
to remove first some of the
girls and then they came to our

561
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,640
house and they took all the
children, including me.

562
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,160
I was 17 at the time.
And eventually they removed all

563
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,960
the children off the land and a
lot of the mothers, because the

564
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,400
mothers wanted to stay with
their children to, they took us

565
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,800
to El Dorado, which is the town
right there.

566
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,360
And then they moved us up to San
Angelo, which is a city that's

567
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,120
about 50 miles north of that
land.

568
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,400
And from there they separated
the children from the mothers

569
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,720
and moved the children to a lot
of different locations across

570
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:55,720
the state of Texas.
So we were really scattered

571
00:37:55,720 --> 00:38:00,440
everywhere and I went to Boys
Ranch up in the Panhandle of

572
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:08,480
Texas with 72 other boys.
Jeez, your head must have been

573
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,640
spinning.
Yeah, I was the oldest boy that

574
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:19,040
was taken and I basically was in
charge of these 72 boys until

575
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,400
June.
So the raid started in early

576
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,680
April, ended.
We went back home 2nd of June

577
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,280
about so about.
So that was a yeah, that was a

578
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,920
huge responsibility.
I can't tell you how big that

579
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,080
was to have that many boys under
my watch care.

580
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:43,160
Oh, man, So what?
What as as you're trying to care

581
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,160
for these boys in this boy's
home and and these are all boys,

582
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,240
you know, from the communities,
right?

583
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,680
Yes.
How are they dealing with stuff?

584
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,480
Are are they all pretty shocked
and and broken up?

585
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,240
I mean, what's what's happening
there?

586
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,280
Yes, the children were really
traumatized, first of all,

587
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,600
thinking the world is out to
destroy us and being separated

588
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,720
from their parents, taken to a
foreign place.

589
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,720
And we were angry.
We felt like they were trying to

590
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:14,720
destroy us.
And this was proof because they

591
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:19,200
took us all from our parents.
So that that confirmed

592
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,840
everything to us.
And I think perhaps that's the

593
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,040
biggest mistake Texas made was
to take all the children from

594
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,280
their parents and do that
instead of get right to the

595
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,360
bottom of the actual criminal
activity that was going on.

596
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,000
No, I remember watching,
watching the raids and really

597
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,560
feeling like, you know, the,
the, the ball was being dropped

598
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,040
here a little bit when it came
to separating children from

599
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,800
their parents, right?
I, I try to be generous in terms

600
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,240
of, well, that maybe they didn't
know what they were dealing with

601
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:55,440
at the time, but it, that
wouldn't have taken long to sort

602
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,760
out, I wouldn't think, right.
Not everybody on, on those lands

603
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,000
were, were criminally involved
with Warren Jeffs, right.

604
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,120
And so it, it was, I remember
being a little bit perturbed by

605
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,040
that myself, seeing that.
What would you do to kind of

606
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,880
keep keep everybody together, so
to speak?

607
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,920
72 boys, dude, and you're 17.
Yeah.

608
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,520
So we we had two houses.
They each had five rooms.

609
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,280
So we had about 6:00 to 8:00
boys per room.

610
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,520
And I just gave the older boys
responsibility over a certain

611
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,120
amount of younger boys to take
care of, to do their laundry,

612
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,000
make sure they had everything
they needed.

613
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,880
And that's kind of how we spend
our days.

614
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:42,240
The staff up there had
activities that we had

615
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:48,480
activities for us and everything
to and then there is Boyer

616
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:53,240
visits, Casa visits, CPS visits.
So that stuff kept us really

617
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:56,400
occupied and a lot of turmoil
for sure.

618
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,160
Gotcha.
Good on you, man.

619
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,720
Holy cow. 72 young boys that you
you kind of felt the

620
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:07,120
responsibility for since you
were the oldest.

621
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:15,920
So now was was was.
At what point do you remember,

622
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,480
was there ever a point what you
were thinking, OK, maybe the

623
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,160
these people who took us weren't
such bad people?

624
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,160
I mean, was there ever a sense
of that or through this whole

625
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,720
experience where you just like,
these guys are the enemy,

626
00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:33,800
they're here to destroy us?
I mean, at what point was there

627
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,040
ever a point at which you were
like, OK, maybe there was

628
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,880
something wrong with where I
grew up?

629
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,320
So once we got to Boys Ranch, we
did form a friendship with some

630
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,880
of the people there.
They were quite kind and

631
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,840
outgoing and looked out for us.
So I think the main impression

632
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,200
that we did get from going out
like that was the people out

633
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,840
there weren't as bad and mean as
we thought they were.

634
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,520
I don't think we had association
with them long enough to realize

635
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,240
there's actually good people out
here that are happy and all

636
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:09,440
that.
So we had implanted in US pretty

637
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,320
strongly that nobody else is
happy out in this world besides

638
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,040
us.
We're the only happy people

639
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,760
there are.
Everyone else is sad and they

640
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,920
might have a fault.
Happiness.

641
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:28,520
We're the only happy people.
Gotcha, man.

642
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:35,160
OK, So at some point you're
you're returned back back to the

643
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,280
ranch, right?
Do you do you ever get to go

644
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,080
back to the ranch or what, what,
what happens?

645
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,680
Yes, we moved back there.
Pretty much all of us were back

646
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,920
there by within a year being
taken off.

647
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,480
So the the children got to go
back to their mothers after

648
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,000
about two months.
But a lot of the mothers had

649
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,440
moved to rental homes in their
effort to get their children

650
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,480
back.
And it was a process of getting

651
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:10,400
the suit, the case is closed and
all that before everyone moved

652
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,320
back there.
And then we didn't really have a

653
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:20,280
lot going on in terms of
projects until late 2010.

654
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,560
And that's when my father kind
of picked it up again from jail

655
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,080
and started directing more
projects to be built, started

656
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,320
sending people away that he
didn't feel like we're worthy to

657
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,000
be there.
And an uptick in activity

658
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,280
started again.
Gotcha.

659
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,000
When you said your your father
would send people away that that

660
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,000
he deemed as dangerous or
whatever, what what kind of

661
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,400
people would he typically send
away?

662
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,080
I mean, what would what, what
would be the common infraction

663
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,560
that would get you moved out of
that community, kicked out?

664
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,960
If you were in Texas around one
of those lands he had

665
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:10,760
established, then all it took
was him to have supposedly God

666
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,320
telling that you shouldn't be
there and he'd send you back to

667
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:19,480
Short Creek.
That the main people that

668
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,200
actually got sent out the
community were in Short Creek.

669
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,640
Once in a while it would happen
in Texas, but most of the time

670
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,640
from Short Creek.
And it didn't have to be an

671
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,880
obvious thing.
It could just be him claiming

672
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,640
that he had a revelation that
somebody should be sent away to

673
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,720
repent because they were
supposedly guilty of something.

674
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:40,400
And often you find out they
actually hadn't done anything

675
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,800
that he accused them of.
So that's a really hard one

676
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,600
because people get sent away
without actually being guilty of

677
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,640
the crime he accused them of.
But there is no way for anybody

678
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,840
else to stand up and say, no,
they didn't do that because that

679
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,080
would just get them sent away.
And it's, it's really hard to

680
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,280
explain that to people that
didn't live in it.

681
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:08,840
But if you're considering him as
someone that can basically give

682
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,440
you or deny you your salvation
and you believe in it and you've

683
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,240
been raised your whole life to
believe that he's the prophet

684
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:18,280
because his father was the
prophet and the line all the way

685
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,600
back to Joseph Smith.
And you're taught you if you

686
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,240
don't obey what he says, your
salvation will be lost

687
00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:29,360
eternally.
And so it, it really is a fear

688
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:34,720
based obedience and a fear based
culture off of doing what he

689
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:42,680
says or else you're out.
You know, it's, it's interesting

690
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,400
to me as you're describing that
very scenario.

691
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,400
And, and if you feel I'm wrong
here in any way, Amin, you, you

692
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,280
feel free to push back against,
against anything I say, please.

693
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,960
But it reminds me of I, I, I
remember I read a book about a

694
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,200
woman who escaped North Korea,
but it was kind of the same

695
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,880
thing, right?
She talks about how she had

696
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,440
friends whose parents had
questioned the leader and then

697
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,400
they would just kind of
disappear in the night.

698
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,720
Right now, to my knowledge,
Warren wasn't killing anyone.

699
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:23,120
He was just telling them leave
the Creek, right?

700
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,360
Or leave Texas or, or whatever.
But it's still kind of the same

701
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:28,960
principle, right?
You're just getting rid of

702
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,760
people.
And the idea is if you stick up

703
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,560
for them, well, you're next,
you're you're the next one to

704
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:39,360
leave.
And and I find that to be

705
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,200
somewhat worrisome.
Is that a fair comparison at

706
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:48,160
all?
Yeah, and especially for a man

707
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,160
to be sent away, then he lost
his family.

708
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,320
He lost his wives and children.
And before my father got taken

709
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,240
to prison, they would be given
to other men quite quickly.

710
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,600
So he really didn't have hope of
getting him back.

711
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:07,880
And you say like North Korea,
and I'll say it's also echoes

712
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:13,680
from Nazi Germany and communism.
And I would say that especially

713
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,320
as he tried to establish what he
called the United Order, it

714
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,280
really took on a form of
religious communism more than

715
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:26,120
anything else where the
punishment because they're not

716
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:27,600
going to come in and kill you,
right?

717
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,240
But to send you out, to send you
away, to take away your

718
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:35,040
membership, you lose all the
blessings and privileges of your

719
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,320
community and it's held over
you.

720
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,800
You know you you could repent
and come back and get your

721
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,520
blessings.
So don't do anything to bring

722
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,800
any more disfavor in case you
get to come back.

723
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:51,200
So your salvation is being held
over your head constantly as a

724
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,840
punishment and then losing all
your blessings as a punishment.

725
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,040
Your associations, generally
when someone sent completely

726
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,720
away from the community, their
communication was completely cut

727
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:06,600
off from any family or friends
and they're just on their own

728
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,560
out in the world.
And they're not equipped for

729
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,560
that, right?
I mean, I, I'm guessing, and,

730
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,400
and correct me again, correct me
if I'm wrong here, there's

731
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,480
probably not a lot of life
skills that a lot of these

732
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,840
people being sent away would
have, right?

733
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:27,320
They don't know how to, I don't
know, go get an apartment or,

734
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,480
you know, go looking for a job,
right?

735
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,200
Because most of the jobs were
assigned within the communities.

736
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,120
Is that correct?
Right.

737
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,640
So if someone was sent away,
they, especially the younger

738
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:44,560
they were, then they weren't
socially ready for the world.

739
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,680
They knew how to work hard and
generally people were told by

740
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:54,400
the Bishop where to work before
this, what company church owned

741
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,440
or members of the church owned
the companies.

742
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,480
So it's a huge leap into the
dark.

743
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,200
Be sent away.
Did you ever experience anyone

744
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,120
getting sent away that really,
really perplexed you, right?

745
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,200
Really made you scratch your
head at that point and was like,

746
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,720
is this?
Is this really something that

747
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:22,320
should have happened?
So the first person that I felt

748
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,520
like I was close to that got
sent away was actually Merle

749
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:32,160
Jessup, who was in the First
Presidency with my father.

750
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:37,720
And from the time I was 14 down
in Texas till he got sent away

751
00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:43,400
when I was 20, he'd been way
more my father than father was,

752
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,720
and I'd become quite close with
him.

753
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,040
He taught me the things that the
father teaches his teenage son

754
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,560
and the responsibility, the work
ethic and even the trades I

755
00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:00,040
learned was more him guiding me
onto different crews and helping

756
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,480
me learn.
So I I had and still have a ton

757
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,480
of respect for him and I was
very shocked when he got sent

758
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,840
away.
Couldn't understand why.

759
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,240
But you know, you can't question
her up at you next.

760
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,600
Right, right.
Yeah.

761
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,640
No, These are only things that
are safe to ask to yourself,

762
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,640
right?
Quietly, without anybody else

763
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,960
knowing.
Did you ever find out why he

764
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,960
that that gentleman got sent
away?

765
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,360
I don't know why he got sent
away.

766
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:43,920
OK, man, that is rough.
So we, we, we kind of stopped

767
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,720
there at the raids.
What what happens after you you

768
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:49,680
get back and and the uptick in
activity starts again?

769
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,160
We built a massive house that
was supposed to be father's home

770
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:01,120
when he got out of prison.
And so in the FLDS, the people

771
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,960
have been taught, and it's
almost part of their religion

772
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:09,920
now to pray for the prophets
deliverance constantly sent in

773
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,160
revelations from prison that
he's just about to be delivered.

774
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,240
The people just need to be more
faithful more one he'll be

775
00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:20,160
delivered.
So we had a spilled up how and

776
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,000
I'm trying to remember how big
it was.

777
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:27,840
It was in the range of about
75,000 square feet for him.

778
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,440
So we had we were supposed to be
done in about 3 months and we

779
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,800
ended up taking seven or
something like that.

780
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:42,280
But he sent a lot of people away
from the land at the same time,

781
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:47,280
and he had made me principal of
the school there that year.

782
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,400
So we had about 300 students.
And by the time the school year

783
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,000
was up in May of 2011, we had
about 100.

784
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,920
And that's a pretty good ratio.
Adults that got sent away, too.

785
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:04,120
So our workforce dropped
dramatically through those

786
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,320
months, even though our time
schedules were so tight.

787
00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:16,160
And Fast forward to 2012, he
required the whole church, the

788
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,720
FLES in Short Creek, anywhere
they were that they had to be re

789
00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:23,760
baptized.
He, he had them baptized into

790
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,800
the United Order and that's how
they joined it.

791
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,320
And if they were, they were not
part of the church anymore, then

792
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,000
they had to go through a Bishop
interview.

793
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,400
If they didn't pass, they
weren't allowed to be part of

794
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,960
the church anymore.
So that was a huge, I'll say

795
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:42,880
huge change for the whole
church.

796
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:47,000
The whole FLES group was the 1st
of 2012.

797
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:52,680
Holy cow.
So.

798
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,760
So you're made principal of a
school while still trying to

799
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,280
work on your father's house.
Yes.

800
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:04,720
Wow.
And OK, so at this point, as, as

801
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:07,440
the principal of the school, did
you have any idea what you were

802
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,200
doing?
Did anyone break in and like,

803
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,520
hey, this is what we're doing?
Like, hey, here's your office.

804
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:17,760
Good luck son.
I I was an assistant with the

805
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:23,080
7th and 8th grade boys the year
before, and then the next school

806
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,160
year that started, he put me
right into teaching the

807
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:31,360
devotional every morning, kind
of like seminary I guess, and

808
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,040
then put me over the school.
Yeah, it was a brand new

809
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:42,320
experience.
Man, that is a lot to go through

810
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,920
now in 2012.
Was your father in prison at

811
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,720
that time or is he still on the
run?

812
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:54,560
Yeah, so he got, he got caught
by the law in 2006, August 28th,

813
00:53:54,560 --> 00:54:02,720
2006, and he was convicted in
Texas in August of 2011.

814
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,400
That's when he got his life
sentence plus 20 years.

815
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:13,840
What was that like when that
that sentencing came down well?

816
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,840
1st a little bit of.
But before we go there, let,

817
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,600
let, let me ask this question
through this time of your father

818
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,440
being in jail, right?
Not prison, but jail.

819
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,800
And he's going through the, the
court system, right?

820
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,760
Going through the, the, the
judicial process here.

821
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,280
Are you guys made aware at all
of the charges that are brought

822
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,880
against him?
No.

823
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:44,600
And originally he was being
haunted down.

824
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:51,040
We called up over an underage
marriage in the short time when

825
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:56,240
his father was a prophet.
And it was the Elisa Wall case.

826
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,840
So that went through the Utah
courts.

827
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:03,400
He was convicted and then he was
moved to Arizona to go through

828
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,960
another case there.
Meanwhile, the Utah case was

829
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:10,760
overturned and then the Arizona
case kind of fell apart.

830
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:15,400
But at that point the Texas case
was going and he was indicted.

831
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:19,560
So he was moved to Texas.
So he moved.

832
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,320
He moved, went to Utah to
prison.

833
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:26,120
Then he went to Arizona.
They went back to Utah, from

834
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,280
Utah to Texas.
Wow.

835
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:33,480
And this whole time you're not
hearing a word about what he's

836
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,360
actually being charged with.
So we knew that it had something

837
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:43,760
to do with Elisa while being
married, young Elise, the adults

838
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,960
knew that.
But in Texas, when he got wind

839
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:52,920
that the Texas State had got a
hold of his records, his private

840
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:58,600
personal records that he had
been keeping, he sent a message

841
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:04,560
to the whole people to the if
they touched any of his records,

842
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,240
they would forever lose their
place in the church and they

843
00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:14,160
could not be used on the mission
of Zion or in any capacity and

844
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:18,040
would just have to be sent away.
And within a month or two of

845
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,800
that, he also gave them a
commandment.

846
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,520
They couldn't touch the Internet
at all or they would be sent

847
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:28,000
away forever.
I see.

848
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,240
And that's, that's how he's
covered up from them, what he's

849
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:36,600
done to this day.
And he also says to the people,

850
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:41,760
there's sacred teachings in
those records that I haven't

851
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,160
been authorized to give to you
yet.

852
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:50,880
And if you touch them without my
permission or God's permission,

853
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:54,560
then you're lost forever.
Your salvation is gone.

854
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,800
So it's a fear based thing to
keep the people from asking any

855
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,960
questions of why things are the
way they are.

856
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,200
So most of the people don't even
know exactly why he's in prison.

857
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:11,360
And that also is why they don't
know the abuse he's done to his

858
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:16,040
own daughters, especially and
sisters, because there's there's

859
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:20,000
a, a wall protecting them, a
psychological wall protecting

860
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,640
them from that information.
If someone leaves a group, say a

861
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,080
couple of his daughters that
have and tell the stories about

862
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:32,680
what he did to them as children,
the pedophilia he's guilty of

863
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:38,520
that can't get back to the FLDS
because if they laughed, they're

864
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,400
an apostate.
Apostates tell lies.

865
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,280
And if you listen to what the
apostates say, then you'll be

866
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:47,480
darkened and fall away and lose
your salvation forever.

867
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,320
So it's very difficult to try to
get any information back to the

868
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:56,600
people about the reason things
are the way they are for them.

869
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:03,200
Got you True.
So when the.

870
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,440
And we should have.
Go ahead.

871
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,440
Sorry, Ammon.
One more thing to throw in, I

872
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:14,160
mentioned January 1st, 2012
being a big day, big change at

873
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:18,760
that time.
He also said no one could have

874
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:23,400
any children or any marital
relations until he comes out of

875
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:30,080
prison and teaches them the
proper way to do that.

876
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,280
And people don't understand what
he means.

877
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,400
They think it just means temple
ordinances.

878
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:42,280
Anybody that's spent time in his
records and knows the things

879
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,040
he's been teaching to select few
knows exactly what he means when

880
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:48,560
he says that.
And it's it's too dark of a

881
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,560
subject to even really talk
about on here.

882
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:56,320
The details of it just just very
morally depraved things.

883
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:06,840
So he, he basically, he
basically says no marital

884
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:11,360
relations, right?
So, you know, I, I imagine the

885
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,440
birth rate fell, right?
0.

886
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:19,200
Yeah, to 0.
That's got to put strains on

887
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:23,480
families.
I mean, it's at this point, you

888
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,560
know, if if you're not on the
inside and you haven't been kept

889
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,880
from that information, you don't
know what's going on.

890
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,960
But I suppose at some level
there were some people that had

891
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,560
to have been like, OK, this is
starting to turn into, well, not

892
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,240
starting to.
We're in the middle of a horror

893
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:42,440
show now, right?
I mean, during this time when

894
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:48,600
he's in prison going through the
legal process, does anybody feel

895
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,720
like they can talk still?
Or is everyone still like no,

896
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:54,160
no, no, no, we, we, you know,
don't you dare question

897
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,600
anything.
Yeah, well, it's, it's a lot

898
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:02,040
like you would find in a
communist society.

899
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:07,720
You might want to question
something, but the person you

900
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,600
talk to might tell on you, might
snitch on you.

901
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,440
You find that that's really a
prevalent thing in communism,

902
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:15,560
right?
Yeah, right.

903
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,400
Turn everyone against each other
towards a snitch on each other

904
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,720
so that people can't question
what's going on.

905
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:24,440
And that's how you keep control
over them.

906
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,240
So and, and these, this
generation, my generation

907
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:32,960
especially, has grown up with
the idea that the Prophet owned

908
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,480
you and your loyalty is to him
first.

909
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,400
So if you get married, obviously
he's chosen, he should marry.

910
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,800
Your loyalty is still to him.
If you're a wife, it's to him

911
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,560
above your husband or if you're
the husband, it's him above your

912
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,920
family.
So if the father starts to

913
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:57,200
question things, most likely the
mothers or the children will

914
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,600
turn against the father and tell
on him and he'll get sent away.

915
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,120
Or if the mother does should get
sent away and lose her children

916
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:09,640
possibly.
So it's it's that's why it's so

917
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:11,600
difficult for people to come out
of that.

918
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,040
Yeah, absolutely.
Especially as a family unit,

919
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,520
Very, very few family units that
have been able to come out as a

920
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:23,520
family.
Yeah, How about you?

921
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,920
Do you get married before any of
this happen?

922
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,720
You know, do you end up getting
married, you know, once you get

923
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:31,640
out of foster care and that sort
of thing?

924
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,440
So he stopped marriages when he
went to prison in 2006, so he

925
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:40,000
hasn't sanctioned any marriage
since 2006.

926
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:44,760
And I was 16, so no I didn't.
I didn't get married and very

927
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:46,480
strongly taught doctrine in the
FL.

928
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,760
They asked that you can't get
married unless the Prophet

929
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:53,400
marries you and chooses who you
get married to.

930
01:01:55,320 --> 01:02:00,240
Wow.
So and is it's is it still that

931
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,000
way today?
Yes, it is.

932
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:09,760
So there's a lot of people my
age, 333435, that are still

933
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:14,080
unmarried.
And there's, there's always

934
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,680
being told, you know, I just
wait just a little bit longer

935
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:18,960
and the profit will come.
And you'll be so happy if you

936
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:22,000
wait for him to tell you who you
should marry.

937
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:34,080
Those poor people.
I I'm just sitting here blown

938
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:39,280
away, right, that the one of the
most sacred things that the Lord

939
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:43,240
has given us, that brings us the
most joyous marriage, monogamous

940
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:48,080
or plural, right?
It it it's absolutely one of the

941
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,040
most divine gifts that a loving
father ever gave his children.

942
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,480
And then to have that denied,
that's harsh.

943
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:05,360
Oh, excuse me.
So you let me gather my thoughts

944
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:06,560
here.
I apologize.

945
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:12,920
So what's it like when the
sentencing comes down, when you

946
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,880
hear that, hey, it's life in
prison, Is that given to

947
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,120
anybody?
Is that something that's kind of

948
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,240
kept on the down low for as long
as it can?

949
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:23,560
What?
What happens there?

950
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:31,640
So he had had the man on the
different places, including

951
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:36,880
Short Creek, have a circle
prayers every 15 minutes day and

952
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,200
night during his whole court
trial and sentencing period.

953
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,520
So we found out right away when
that happened that it was a

954
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:49,240
life, life sentence.
But he had already sent all

955
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:55,840
these revelations saying that he
was going to be delivered by the

956
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:57,880
hand of God, not by the
government.

957
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,600
And it would be something like
Paul the apostle or Peter or

958
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,920
Alma and Amulet in the Book of
Mormon, that type of a

959
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:08,760
deliverance.
And that's that's still what

960
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:13,440
they're looking for.
Are those and are those prayer

961
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:14,800
circles?
That's what the people's faith

962
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:16,520
is based on.
Yeah.

963
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:23,120
Are are those those went on
those went on until mid 2012 and

964
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:27,080
they kind of fell apart because
he was when he instituted the

965
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:31,600
member the United Order thing
and you have to be a member of

966
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:33,840
the United Order to be part of
the church.

967
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:38,240
It it kind of started this
member non member thing and a

968
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:43,680
lot of us like he would say you
need to repent of something and

969
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,000
it could be complete fabrication
of his mind, but he could send a

970
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,840
revelation that somebody needed
to repent and they'd be married.

971
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,880
A non member could be sent away
from where they were for a few

972
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:57,120
weeks or a few months and then
he'd send them a new one that

973
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:02,720
says you can be re baptized now.
So it, it really started a lot

974
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,720
of disarray in the FLDS.
Oh yeah.

975
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,880
So there's kind of a you're a
member, you're a non member

976
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:12,360
thing.
So let me ask you this in the

977
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:17,480
time that he's since 2006 when
he stopped all marriages, has

978
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,360
rearranging families stopped at
that point too?

979
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:27,400
The main thing that happens if a
father gets in the way is they

980
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,880
would have a another man they
would call a caretaker, they

981
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:35,760
would have have them go under
his direction and he would do

982
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:38,320
their family training or
whatever, but they wouldn't be

983
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:43,360
given to him.
And, and right now, because of

984
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,320
the disarray that's happened in
the FLDS, they're, they're a lot

985
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:50,600
more on their own than they used
to be, not so much under another

986
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:53,120
person.
If the a father, parents get

987
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:59,880
sent away.
OK, so at what point?

988
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,240
Now I'm going to make this a
little personal for you here, if

989
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:08,640
it's OK.
I'm at what point do you start

990
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,920
questioning things now?
I mean, at what point?

991
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:16,160
Because it sounds like up to
about what, what were you saying

992
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:20,240
say until you were about 20, you
were just kind of working the

993
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:25,320
program, so to speak, right?
You were very much fully engaged

994
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:29,400
and, and fully believing here
in, in your father and what was

995
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:32,800
happening or, and your
perception that was given to you

996
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:36,640
of what was happening.
At, at what point do you start

997
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:38,400
to question things yourself?
So.

998
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:45,880
The first time I, I felt a
question would have been first

999
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:50,400
of 2012 when he sent me away
from text this to South Dakota,

1000
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:52,680
which would be considered a
downgrade back then.

1001
01:06:53,720 --> 01:07:00,200
And he claimed to he was
supposed to have another person

1002
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:07,640
ask me if I he was sending away
a large group of his family for

1003
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:10,240
messing up the flowers in the
property.

1004
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:15,680
And I wasn't part of it.
But in the same message he, he

1005
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:19,520
told one of the people that he
would send his revelations to,

1006
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:23,920
to be typed up to ask me if I
wanted to go or stay.

1007
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:27,200
And I didn't want to go.
So I said I'd stay.

1008
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:31,000
And then he had him read me an
answer that said, the Lord

1009
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,920
revealed to me, you'd want to
stay and that's proof of your

1010
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:36,400
pride and whatever.
So you have to be sent away now.

1011
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,320
And then at the end of the
message they were reading to me,

1012
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:42,400
it said, and even if he says
he'll go, then you still need to

1013
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:44,480
read this to him because he
still needs to repent.

1014
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:49,280
So I was listening to that and
I'm like, so it doesn't really

1015
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,920
matter what I chose.
You're claiming to read my mind.

1016
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:57,960
And what couldn't you accuse me
of at this point?

1017
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:03,280
That's, that's when I felt like
I started to question and I had

1018
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:08,560
a lot of whiplash for the next,
you know, 5 or 6 years of this

1019
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:15,560
kind of thing going on with me.
And Fast forward to middle of

1020
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:20,920
2012, he sent another revelation
claiming that I had molested my

1021
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,479
sisters, which blew me out of
the water.

1022
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,560
And over the next few years, he
would do this to me, send a

1023
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,960
revelation claiming I hadn't
confessed to him doing these

1024
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:34,240
different things.
And I couldn't understand why.

1025
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:38,880
And I didn't understand why
until 2023 when I found out what

1026
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:43,359
he had done to my sisters, that
he was just projecting his sins

1027
01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:46,880
onto me, trying to get me to say
I was guilty of them.

1028
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:53,359
Holy cow.
Well, and, and that was look,

1029
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:56,760
I've talked to people who don't
want to go on the record and I

1030
01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:00,000
can't blame them, right?
I, you're a brave man, Ammon,

1031
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:02,600
because I'm not sure I'd want to
go through this again.

1032
01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:08,640
But that was the thing that
popped out to me most is that it

1033
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:14,960
was almost like he would at any
given moment just focus on

1034
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:17,960
somebody and kind of play mind
games, right?

1035
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:24,720
I don't know how else to to
expect almost like almost like

1036
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:29,000
he was trying to break them
mentally and spiritually so that

1037
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:32,960
they would become completely,
100% reliant upon him.

1038
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:36,680
Is that a fair assessment on my
part or my off base on that?

1039
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:42,680
Yeah, 100%.
And and you have to realize he's

1040
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:46,040
sending this as the direct word
of God, right?

1041
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:49,120
Supposedly not him.
This is God accusing you

1042
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:51,560
basically of sin.
Right.

1043
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:55,840
And and per your last statement
about how he said he was

1044
01:09:55,840 --> 01:10:00,840
suffering as Christ suffered for
the people, he's almost a step

1045
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,600
above just the prophet at this
point, right?

1046
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:09,160
He is now elevated himself up
into a messianic figure which

1047
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,760
carries even more weight than
just a typical one man prophet,

1048
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,600
right?
Right.

1049
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,400
And and we'll get to that deeper
into it towards the end here.

1050
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,240
Yeah.
OK.

1051
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:28,000
So it comes down that, hey, he's
he's going to be in jail for for

1052
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:29,880
the rest of his life
potentially.

1053
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:39,360
What what happens after that?
So he really got the United

1054
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:42,240
Order effort going in Short
Creek.

1055
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:47,560
He'd already already had it on
the other places from the time

1056
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:53,120
he established them, but the
place is kind of emptied out

1057
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,840
once Texas got taken by the
Texas government, and the main

1058
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,520
effort was there in Short Creek.
He had his family in other

1059
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:06,480
places and in South Dakota, but
not really other people.

1060
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,360
So the effort of the group was
centered in Short Creek again.

1061
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:16,480
And the problem there was he
kept making people that were

1062
01:11:16,480 --> 01:11:23,120
part of part of the order non
members and the United Order,

1063
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:28,720
even in Short Creek lived off of
non member contributions for 90%

1064
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:32,480
of its function ability, the
storehouse and all that.

1065
01:11:32,480 --> 01:11:35,760
And the people were trying to
live out of the storehouse.

1066
01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:42,320
And I'll say in my opinion, it
was set up very wrong, very

1067
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:46,120
wrong from the way God means for
the United Order to operate the

1068
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:50,040
law of consecration.
And the people became more and

1069
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:54,920
more poor, especially just the
normal lay members of the church

1070
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:59,720
didn't have a whole lot because
you couldn't get anything unless

1071
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:01,560
you put a request into the
storehouse.

1072
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:04,360
And then people working at the
storehouse are supposed to

1073
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,840
purchase, get your food supplied
to you and everything.

1074
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:11,440
And people's needs just weren't
met.

1075
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:16,480
The food they got was generally
a poorer quality nutrition and

1076
01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:20,840
all that.
And that's really how the people

1077
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:27,360
lived until about 2016.
And in 2016.

1078
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:30,560
I've been in Short Creek because
he had made me a non member.

1079
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:35,880
I wouldn't confessed to him to
things I hadn't done, so he

1080
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:40,560
wouldn't let me be a member.
And he sent me away far away

1081
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:43,560
like other men for about nine
months.

1082
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:49,680
And right after he sent me away,
he made everyone in Short Creek

1083
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,640
non members and said nobody held
the priesthood but himself.

1084
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:57,400
And that really started the
breakup of their United Order

1085
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:00,360
effort.
And people over the next six

1086
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:05,360
months went out and got jobs.
And a lot of people moved out of

1087
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:10,200
Short Creek to Cedar City and
other other cities up along the

1088
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:15,160
I-15 corridor, mostly in
southern Utah, though, which is

1089
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:17,680
where they are still.
And for the most part, most of

1090
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,200
them have jobs.
Most of them aren't part of a

1091
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,040
United Order or anything like
that.

1092
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:29,520
Holy cow.
And so when he sent you away,

1093
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:31,920
far away, where, if you don't
mind me asking, where do you

1094
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:34,680
send you?
He just told me to go to the

1095
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:37,440
North Central states, don't go
east of the Mississippi.

1096
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:42,400
So I went to Minnesota.
This was when Lyle Jeffs was

1097
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:45,360
still there.
So he's the one that told me I

1098
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:47,920
was supposed to go.
He took all my phone, took any

1099
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:53,880
phones I had, so I couldn't
communicate with anybody and I

1100
01:13:53,880 --> 01:14:01,680
went North End of Minnesota and
worked up there for 9 months and

1101
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,920
I didn't associate with a single
soul that I knew that whole

1102
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:07,560
time.
So you went out and found a job

1103
01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:10,280
on your own and just had to re
establish everything on your

1104
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:12,880
own?
Yes, I did.

1105
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:18,680
What was that like for you?
It's really rough and really

1106
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:23,560
emotional at first, but felt
like I got to know some good

1107
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:26,880
people out there, have some
really good friends that I still

1108
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:32,080
have to till today that I worked
for and worked with.

1109
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:38,880
And I discovered there was good
people out there, really honest,

1110
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:45,120
God fearing Christians.
But in 2017, he called me back

1111
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:47,120
with a lot of other people he'd
send away.

1112
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:51,960
And I'll say around this time is
when I feel like he really

1113
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:56,200
started getting a case of
schizophonia where his mind

1114
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:00,640
started to go away and he lives
outside reality.

1115
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:05,240
But he had these meetings start
again in short Greek, but only

1116
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:09,760
people he named could go there.
And so a few for a few months I

1117
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:12,200
got to go without a lot of
others.

1118
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:16,720
And towards the end, all the all
that we would hear in those

1119
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:20,360
meetings were revelations that
he wrote from prison or had

1120
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:27,560
recorded and sent there and they
got to be really out of reality.

1121
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:32,320
So he would claim that, you
know, a third of the population

1122
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:36,360
had been taken off the Earth and
put on some other planet, taken

1123
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:38,160
to death because they were so
wicked.

1124
01:15:39,480 --> 01:15:44,640
And he said a lot of times that
certain judgements of God would

1125
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:48,120
come upon this nation, which
came and went.

1126
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:51,560
Nothing happened.
And as he started saying those

1127
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:57,160
things, and I was to the point
where I didn't believe that kind

1128
01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:02,360
of stuff when he would say it,
part of it goes back to 2007.

1129
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:10,080
In January of 2007, he called
our house in Texas.

1130
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:13,320
And this is when I was 16, and
he said he wasn't the prophet

1131
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:18,720
anymore.
And he privately called several

1132
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:24,440
individuals and told them that
he had been immoral to a

1133
01:16:24,440 --> 01:16:27,440
daughter and a sister.
We didn't know.

1134
01:16:27,440 --> 01:16:29,800
That was why he was saying he
wasn't the prophet.

1135
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:31,960
And he told them he didn't hold
the priesthood.

1136
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:34,320
He said he hadn't held us since
he was 20 years old.

1137
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,960
But the message I heard when he
called, he just said I'm the

1138
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:41,720
wickedest man that's ever lived.
I'm not the prophet.

1139
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:47,600
Well, the man in charge came in
and talked to us and told us

1140
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:51,480
they felt like he wasn't in his
right mind and he was just

1141
01:16:51,480 --> 01:16:54,400
saying things because he was
under so much pressure in jail.

1142
01:16:55,760 --> 01:17:00,480
And I got the idea from these
men, including Uncle Meryl

1143
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:05,680
Jessup and my Uncle Isaac, who
told me that he wasn't in his

1144
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:08,400
right mind.
It gave me the impression that I

1145
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:13,040
could ask questions, and if I
felt like the Prophet was saying

1146
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:18,000
things that were off, I could,
at least for myself, try to go

1147
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:22,680
square it with Scripture or with
what the Prophet Joseph said.

1148
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:27,840
And that's where I got the idea
that even a prophet might get

1149
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:34,880
off his rocker once.
Yeah, yeah, no, I, I, I don't

1150
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:39,880
mean to, to, to giggle it all,
but it, it's just when you're

1151
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:42,600
raised in that sort of
environment, it's the most, it's

1152
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:44,680
got to be the most foreign
thought in the world to you

1153
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:47,960
that, hey, maybe, maybe he is
mortal, right?

1154
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:53,840
Maybe maybe he does have, you
know, a few, a few, you know,

1155
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:55,920
have some things wrong here,
obviously.

1156
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:01,680
But I, I do remember here
watching a clip of him when he

1157
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:05,000
was standing in prison and he
basically says that, right?

1158
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:08,440
They they have the the audience,
him saying that very thing.

1159
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:11,680
And it's interesting that it's
not just because I always

1160
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:14,840
thought until I, you just told
me, I always thought that was

1161
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:18,360
maybe a one time deal, right.
But it sounds like he actually

1162
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:21,480
made phone calls to certain
people.

1163
01:18:21,480 --> 01:18:24,080
You being one of them and
saying, hey, yeah, no, I'm, I'm

1164
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:25,880
not a prophet.
I'm a wicked guy.

1165
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:32,160
Do you, what do you, you knowing
your your your father, right?

1166
01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:35,600
As as much or as little as you
do, Do you think that was a

1167
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:39,040
moment of clarity for him?
Do you think he really lost his

1168
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:40,760
mind?
What, what was your, what were

1169
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:42,560
you thinking on that at that
point?

1170
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:48,840
So my initial reaction, well I
was totally shocked.

1171
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:52,680
So the message or what the phone
call I heard was broadcast over

1172
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:54,880
the intercom to our whole
family.

1173
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:58,400
So the whole family heard it all
at once when he said it, but he

1174
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:01,520
called others individually and
told them more.

1175
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:04,520
So we didn't understand why he
was saying it.

1176
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:08,360
The the other people he called,
you know, today, I feel like

1177
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:11,400
they should have gone and
questioned some people down and

1178
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:14,680
said, did this kind of stuff
happened to you as a child like

1179
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:18,400
you sing?
Instead, they all decided that

1180
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:23,480
he was just out of his mind.
So at first, I believed him when

1181
01:19:23,480 --> 01:19:26,080
he first said he wasn't the
prophet just for a couple of

1182
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:28,520
hours until we got told that,
hey, he's out of his mind

1183
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:32,040
because I was conditioned to
believe everything he said.

1184
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:36,680
Like from my youth and
especially once he was named as

1185
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:41,120
the prophet to everyone, then if
he said something, you could

1186
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:44,120
consider it a scripture.
That was the mentality.

1187
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:46,600
And is the mentality still in
that group?

1188
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:52,760
So it was a relief to us.
It was a relief to us to be

1189
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:57,400
like, oh, you know, he's just
not in his mind right now

1190
01:19:57,400 --> 01:19:59,000
because he's under so much
pressure.

1191
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:08,320
And then do you remember did
when does he kind of recant

1192
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:10,240
that?
Does he ever address that later

1193
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:12,320
and said oh never mind, it was
just a test?

1194
01:20:14,040 --> 01:20:17,320
Yeah, so he didn't call for a
couple weeks, and then he calls

1195
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:20,760
back and says, yeah, I'm still
the prophet.

1196
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:25,640
Then God's told me to continue
in my position and continue to

1197
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:27,400
tell the people what to do and
guide them.

1198
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:32,040
And then he went quiet.
He went quiet for months.

1199
01:20:32,480 --> 01:20:36,320
And I think the people in charge
knew he wasn't still in his

1200
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:38,600
mind.
And I guess he tried saying a

1201
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:42,080
few more times that he wasn't
the prophet after that, but we

1202
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:44,360
just, we didn't hear, we didn't
see it.

1203
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:49,800
That's where you get the thing
that says he tried to resign as

1204
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:51,480
president of the church and all
that.

1205
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:55,040
It really went on for a period
of months and he came out of it

1206
01:20:55,040 --> 01:21:02,520
in April of 2007.
Gotcha, gotcha.

1207
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:12,480
OK, so all of this happens now I
want to get in what, what

1208
01:21:12,480 --> 01:21:14,680
happens to you from that point,
right?

1209
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:20,440
When, when you start hearing all
this And you know, so now this

1210
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:24,640
is introducing into your mind a
lot of questions, right?

1211
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:28,320
Like, Hey, he doesn't
necessarily always believe he's

1212
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:33,360
a prophet.
And so when you, when you come

1213
01:21:34,440 --> 01:21:38,280
and, and let me see if I can
remember this correctly, you

1214
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:40,920
went back to Short Creek.
That's where he makes those

1215
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:42,720
phone calls about he's not the
prophet.

1216
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:47,160
Or was that earlier?
That was in Texas in 2007, and I

1217
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:51,080
wasn't.
I wasn't in Short Creek very

1218
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:56,760
much until 2014 and then, you
know, I'd go somewhere else and

1219
01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:00,840
then he'd send me back there
20/15/2016.

1220
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:06,960
Then he sent me away in 2016 and
let me come back in 2017 to

1221
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:10,040
those meetings he started in
Short Creek and that's when the

1222
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:15,040
things he said started getting
really wild and inconsistent.

1223
01:22:15,480 --> 01:22:20,480
So at the same time I started
living in northern Utah with

1224
01:22:20,480 --> 01:22:25,240
some of my cousins and we
started working on construction

1225
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:28,360
and all that.
But we were going to these

1226
01:22:28,360 --> 01:22:32,320
meetings and then suddenly he
cut us off from the meetings and

1227
01:22:32,320 --> 01:22:37,800
he and it was when the he was
sending rebel nations to be

1228
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:39,840
printed to send to all the
leaders of the nations and

1229
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:41,400
everything that we're really
bizarre.

1230
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:47,280
So personally, I wrote them off
like this is ridiculous.

1231
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:48,640
I'm just going to forget about
it.

1232
01:22:50,480 --> 01:22:53,920
I didn't really say that to
anybody because that can that

1233
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:56,160
can get you out, right?
Right.

1234
01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:02,840
But he started the meetings
again with just a few select

1235
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:07,160
people, and a lot of the people
he selected were young people

1236
01:23:07,160 --> 01:23:13,320
younger than me, like 1516,
seventeen, 1820 year olds and a

1237
01:23:13,320 --> 01:23:16,200
few adults.
And when they'd come back from

1238
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:19,120
the because they wouldn't talk
to us anymore and treat us

1239
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:22,360
really strange.
And it went on for a few months

1240
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:26,720
and then their meetings stopped.
And the people that went to

1241
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:29,160
those meetings treated a lot of
us really strange for about a

1242
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:32,160
year and they'd never tell us
what they heard.

1243
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:38,120
One thing in all these meetings
is you had to promise you would

1244
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:43,720
never talk about what he said,
which is also another tactic to

1245
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:46,600
keep the people from getting
together and reasoning things

1246
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:48,640
out right?
You can't even talk with each

1247
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:50,880
other most for the most part
about what he's telling you.

1248
01:23:52,960 --> 01:24:00,520
Anyway, Fast forward, I get out
to work and I made a commitment

1249
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:05,480
in my mind end of 2017 that I
was done being afraid of him and

1250
01:24:05,480 --> 01:24:09,840
I was just going to worry about
earning money and living my life

1251
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:12,240
and hopefully he came back to
sanity and started talking

1252
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:15,840
again.
So up to this point obviously I

1253
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:21,040
didn't know he had committed any
great crimes against my own

1254
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:23,800
siblings and other people.
I didn't realize I had gone on.

1255
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:27,600
So on my mind, I'd still think
he's an innocent person, but

1256
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:32,840
he's been persecuted and he's in
prison that Fast forward to

1257
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:41,720
2021.
So I'm 31 now and I have seven

1258
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:45,000
of my sisters suddenly leave the
FLDS group.

1259
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:52,440
And these sisters were the
sisters that he was calling and

1260
01:24:54,040 --> 01:25:00,120
talking to still all this time.
And I wasn't hearing anything.

1261
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:02,560
So I was shocked.
And I was like, you know what,

1262
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:07,400
What's going on?
And I started to question family

1263
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:11,760
members that knew what was going
on and they started telling me

1264
01:25:11,760 --> 01:25:17,720
about the revelations he's
giving them, which were it's so

1265
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:21,600
bizarre that you have to read
them to realize how crazy it is

1266
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:24,000
that the claims he makes.
He claims world events are

1267
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:29,200
happening, the judgments of God
have come and gone and and

1268
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:32,400
horrific, horrific things that
accusations that he levels at

1269
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:37,160
many members of the church.
Anyway.

1270
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:41,920
So I found that out and I was
like, yeah, obviously he's not

1271
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:43,880
in his mind.
And if we're going to follow any

1272
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:47,400
correct principle, then we have
to write off everything he's

1273
01:25:47,400 --> 01:25:49,760
saying and not listen to any of
it and just go back to our

1274
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:52,560
scriptures.
And I started talking like that

1275
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:56,680
to members of my family, and I
felt like I could say it to.

1276
01:25:56,680 --> 01:26:03,400
Some agreed, some didn't agree.
Anyway, if you have any

1277
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:04,800
questions, go ahead and ask
them.

1278
01:26:05,040 --> 01:26:07,480
No, I'm just looking.
I'm fascinated here.

1279
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:16,000
The next year in 2022, my
younger brother Helaman, he's

1280
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:19,000
kind of well known now so not
afraid to say his name.

1281
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:25,760
He husband and there with the
people that father uses father

1282
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:34,600
calls and talks to.
And he told me that he had

1283
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:38,960
information that people in
prison were trying to give my

1284
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:40,880
father drugs to make him be
crazy.

1285
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:47,000
And I knew that he wouldn't do
anything about it.

1286
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:48,920
And the other members of the
family wouldn't do anything

1287
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:51,360
about it because they were so
afraid that if they did

1288
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:57,880
something, Father would call and
send them away and rebuke him

1289
01:26:57,880 --> 01:26:59,320
severely.
Anyway.

1290
01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:04,080
So I wrote a letter to governor
of Texas to his office saying,

1291
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:08,960
hey, I understand the people are
saying this.

1292
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:14,320
Somehow Father's being given
drugs to make him go crazy, and

1293
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:18,720
he's calling his family and
giving them crazy messages.

1294
01:27:19,360 --> 01:27:22,800
And they're so afraid of him
that they think somehow it's

1295
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:24,760
true, even though it doesn't
make any sense.

1296
01:27:26,040 --> 01:27:28,960
Anyway, I sent that off and I
didn't think I'd get an answer

1297
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:33,600
back.
But few weeks later than my

1298
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:38,400
father calls his family and says
that I'm accusing him of being

1299
01:27:38,400 --> 01:27:41,760
on drugs.
And so he hasn't send me a

1300
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:44,880
message.
And he says, you know, it's the

1301
01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:47,760
most terrible thing you ever
could have done to accuse me of

1302
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:50,520
being on drugs.
And this is apostasy.

1303
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:56,600
And he turned it around and said
you're the person that's on

1304
01:27:56,600 --> 01:27:59,480
drugs.
You're the person guilty of sin.

1305
01:27:59,480 --> 01:28:02,960
You're you've been with
prostitutes, you've been out

1306
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:06,760
competing, adultery, doing all
sorts of terrible immoralities

1307
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:11,560
and even went on to say I'd
killed hundreds of people.

1308
01:28:12,440 --> 01:28:14,880
And then in the end of the
message he said, if you'll

1309
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:18,560
confess to all this, then you
you'll get to have a family and

1310
01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:21,280
be restored and have your
membership in the church.

1311
01:28:21,480 --> 01:28:23,200
Otherwise I'm not going to talk
to you again.

1312
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:27,240
Anyway.
So I heard that and I was like,

1313
01:28:27,240 --> 01:28:32,040
yeah, that didn't work.
And I sent him a letter and I

1314
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:35,480
said, Father, you know, I want,
I'm just going to let you know I

1315
01:28:35,480 --> 01:28:39,520
forgive you for what you accused
me of.

1316
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:42,880
And when we meet at the bar of
God, I'll be able to look you in

1317
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:45,200
the eye and tell you I didn't do
this.

1318
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:51,520
And he called back and told the
family that I was accusing him

1319
01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:56,200
of lying and told him I was
going to call him before the bar

1320
01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:59,360
of God.
And so at that point, I was

1321
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:02,560
like, OK, I'll be better off to
just not write anything.

1322
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:06,560
I'm going to worry about my work
and forget about all this.

1323
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:10,760
And by now I was living in
western Wyoming on the Idaho

1324
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:14,720
border.
Pretty much there Star Valley,

1325
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:17,920
about an hour South of Jackson.
Know exactly where you're at?

1326
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:20,600
Yep.
And yeah, so a couple days

1327
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:26,640
later, he sends another message
to me and another brother and

1328
01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:31,800
tells us that we're sent away
and we should go Far East and

1329
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:36,560
have no communication whatsoever
with anyone in the FLDS group.

1330
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:42,560
And I told the message bearer
that thanks, but I'm probably

1331
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:44,640
not going to do anything, I'm
just going to stay where I am.

1332
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:48,080
And they sent the message again
a couple days later and I said,

1333
01:29:49,040 --> 01:29:53,000
I'm only going back east if it's
a holiday for a vacation, but

1334
01:29:53,320 --> 01:29:56,080
I'm just not going anywhere.
This is this is getting kind of

1335
01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:59,040
silly good.
For you, Good for you.

1336
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:02,920
So, so about that point, you
know, I just started minding my

1337
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:10,360
own business and working.
And Fast forward to 2023, in

1338
01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:19,040
May, my father still claimed the
sisters that had left were

1339
01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:25,160
faithful and also some of his
children had left years ago.

1340
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:27,960
He, he suddenly claimed they
were these righteous, faithful

1341
01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:31,680
people he claimed there in the
celestial Kingdom exalted to

1342
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:35,360
godhood.
And so some of the family would

1343
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:39,360
visit them and talk to them.
And I had a younger sister that

1344
01:30:39,440 --> 01:30:41,680
went and visited some of my
sisters.

1345
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:46,640
I'd left and got married, and
she decided she wanted to stay

1346
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:48,800
with this sister because she's
about to have a baby.

1347
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:54,080
And he had taught us that was
like, the worst thing you could

1348
01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:57,240
do, you know, go to apostates
and be with them.

1349
01:30:58,160 --> 01:30:59,960
So this younger sister, I was
like, you know, why?

1350
01:30:59,960 --> 01:31:01,960
Why are you staying with the
apostates?

1351
01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:05,480
You know, Father told us that's
something that'll help us lose

1352
01:31:05,480 --> 01:31:12,360
our faith.
And the next day, my older

1353
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:18,360
sister told me that she was
terrified that this younger

1354
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:22,720
sister was going to hear things
that would make her leave the

1355
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:27,600
work, the church.
And she sent this younger sister

1356
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:30,480
a text message and she copied me
on it.

1357
01:31:30,480 --> 01:31:35,760
So I got the same text message.
And in it, she said that there's

1358
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:39,800
things you're going to hear if
you're not careful about father

1359
01:31:39,800 --> 01:31:45,440
that would make you leave work
and it would even make his wives

1360
01:31:45,440 --> 01:31:47,680
leave.
And I have a personal

1361
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:49,640
experience, so I know what I'm
talking about.

1362
01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:54,160
So I had called this older
sister of mine and said, what,

1363
01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:56,240
what on earth are you talking
about?

1364
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:59,640
Is this the things that he's
always telling us we can't hear

1365
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:02,960
that are in the sacred records?
And she said, no, It's like,

1366
01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:06,960
Kay, then is it something that
happened to you?

1367
01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:11,480
And she finally admitted to me
that he had molested her when

1368
01:32:11,480 --> 01:32:18,960
she was a child.
And that's the thing that blew

1369
01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:21,400
me out of the water.
I was, I was so unprepared to

1370
01:32:21,400 --> 01:32:27,360
hear that and so shocked.
And it took me about two weeks

1371
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:30,840
to really get that into my head.
But this really happened.

1372
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:33,880
He really did this.
And he did it to several of my

1373
01:32:33,880 --> 01:32:36,480
sisters.
And I started asking questions

1374
01:32:37,440 --> 01:32:40,720
of her.
I started talking to my sisters

1375
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:46,520
that had left and that that's
the reason they left and dug

1376
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:50,480
this out, that he had had this
major problem, pedophilia

1377
01:32:50,480 --> 01:32:54,520
problem of molesting young
girls.

1378
01:32:55,880 --> 01:33:00,080
And I knew darn good and well
that a prophet is not a

1379
01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:03,640
pedophile.
And so he could, he couldn't

1380
01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:08,640
claim the authority he claimed
and be doing those type of

1381
01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:12,200
things.
And that's where I stepped out

1382
01:33:12,200 --> 01:33:16,680
and really started investigating
what what's going on, How did we

1383
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:19,320
get here?
And if this is the true church,

1384
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:22,880
why did God allow this to happen
to us?

1385
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:27,080
And that's where I really
started asking questions because

1386
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:31,520
that's about as major of a faith
crisis as you can come to

1387
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:33,960
something you believed in so
strongly.

1388
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:42,160
Yeah, absolutely.
So, so everything's kind of set

1389
01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:46,720
on the table now, right?
You, you're, you're kind of

1390
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:50,600
seeing and, and again, forgive
me if I'm misunderstanding here,

1391
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:54,840
but it seems like there's been a
slow build up right where you

1392
01:33:54,840 --> 01:33:57,400
start thinking, OK, something's
not quite right here.

1393
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:01,400
And then he, he kind of tries to
play some of these mind games

1394
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:05,520
with you and, and you're just
like, you know, you're kind of

1395
01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:09,480
going with it for a while.
You go to Minnesota and then

1396
01:34:09,480 --> 01:34:11,880
finally they try to send you a
way back east again.

1397
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:14,520
You're like, you know what, I'm
good, but thanks for the offer.

1398
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:18,440
Sort of a thing, right?
And, and you, you kind of stand

1399
01:34:18,440 --> 01:34:20,800
your ground.
And then after you talk to your

1400
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:25,040
sisters, you start seeing
everything laid before you,

1401
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:28,720
right?
That, that is actual truth,

1402
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:30,760
right?
And, and there's no denying it

1403
01:34:30,760 --> 01:34:33,880
now, they weren't just empty
allegations.

1404
01:34:34,120 --> 01:34:35,760
This was coming from your
family.

1405
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:38,600
And everything's starting to
fall in into place and make

1406
01:34:38,600 --> 01:34:43,160
sense.
Where does that put you with the

1407
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:45,760
gospel overall?
Do you, do you have a moment

1408
01:34:45,760 --> 01:34:48,080
then where you're like, is any
of this true?

1409
01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:56,480
So as a young person, I grew up
reading a lot and I read the

1410
01:34:56,480 --> 01:34:59,360
journals a lot.
I read the first 21 volumes of

1411
01:34:59,360 --> 01:35:02,080
the journals of Discourses by
the time I was 18.

1412
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:08,680
And I felt like that really
helped to ground the gospel into

1413
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:12,080
me, give me a testimony of the
Prophet Joseph.

1414
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:18,640
And I had as a young person gone
and read about the doctrine of

1415
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:22,720
plural marriage because I wanted
to understand why we live up

1416
01:35:23,320 --> 01:35:26,360
and, you know, in our in our
family.

1417
01:35:26,360 --> 01:35:30,680
It was really messed up because
my father had taken so many

1418
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:33,400
women.
I mean, he had 78 at that point

1419
01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:40,480
and he didn't have a proper
marital loving relationship with

1420
01:35:40,480 --> 01:35:43,800
these ladies.
A lot of them, you know, I saw

1421
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:46,960
them just toiled day and night
to keep the family going.

1422
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:49,120
Most of them never had any
children.

1423
01:35:50,000 --> 01:35:52,760
And then there were always the
few special ones.

1424
01:35:53,440 --> 01:35:55,640
And I didn't, I didn't feel like
that was right.

1425
01:35:57,000 --> 01:36:00,400
So I went and read what Brigham
Young, Horsham Pratt and those

1426
01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:04,120
men taught.
And then I would read any family

1427
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:07,680
experience as I could find,
where children and wives wrote

1428
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:11,040
their stories of what happened.
And I felt quite grounded in

1429
01:36:11,040 --> 01:36:14,000
that and grounded in my
testimony of the Prophet Joseph.

1430
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:18,760
So when I when I learned
everything that my father was

1431
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:23,960
guilty of, the first question
that came to my mind is where

1432
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:27,560
did we go wrong in this
fundamentalist movement?

1433
01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:33,960
Because I've been taught about
the 1886 revelation and this is

1434
01:36:33,960 --> 01:36:38,720
where we get into the doctrine.
So in the FLDS, you you read the

1435
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:44,560
story about the 1886 revelation
and it's presented as John

1436
01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:47,680
Taylor got this revelation for
the continuance of plural

1437
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:51,000
marriage and he set up an order
for it to continue.

1438
01:36:52,920 --> 01:36:55,800
And you know, all
fundamentalists believe that.

1439
01:36:57,000 --> 01:37:02,880
But where it starts to go
different in the FLDS is at that

1440
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:06,480
time he appointed John Wool like
to be the next prophet.

1441
01:37:08,160 --> 01:37:11,520
And then John Woolley appointed
his son Lauren to be the next

1442
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:14,120
prophet.
Lauren appointed John Wybartle

1443
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:16,400
to be the prophet.
After him, John Wybartle

1444
01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:19,520
appointed Leroy Johnson.
Leroy Johnson appointed Ruth and

1445
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:22,000
Jeffs.
Ruth and Jeffs appointed Warren

1446
01:37:22,000 --> 01:37:25,760
Jeffs.
And that's what they're taught.

1447
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:30,360
So my first question is, where
did this line go wrong?

1448
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:36,240
So I first went back to my
grandfather and in trying to

1449
01:37:36,240 --> 01:37:39,440
understand how my father could
do what he did and get away with

1450
01:37:39,440 --> 01:37:45,560
it, I learned that he had also
harmed his own sisters and that

1451
01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:50,400
his father knew it and did
nothing about it and actually

1452
01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:54,000
continued to promote him and to
give him more wives.

1453
01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:58,560
So I said, Kay, if my
grandfather promote on that kind

1454
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:00,640
of stuff, that's just, that's
not what a prophet does.

1455
01:38:00,640 --> 01:38:05,560
He doesn't promote this kind of
wickedness and I worked my way

1456
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:10,000
all the way back to the Woolies
and started listening to the

1457
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:15,920
podcasts on here and very much
enjoyed the John W Taylor

1458
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:17,720
podcast you did with Michael
Ness.

1459
01:38:18,040 --> 01:38:21,440
Oh yeah, yeah.
Those are those are very helpful

1460
01:38:21,440 --> 01:38:25,080
because in the FLDS pretty much
we're told there's not really

1461
01:38:25,080 --> 01:38:30,520
any history from that time.
So this is what happened and I

1462
01:38:30,520 --> 01:38:35,120
come to find out those, in my
opinion, those woolly men didn't

1463
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:40,480
consider themselves the Prophet.
They didn't consider themselves

1464
01:38:40,480 --> 01:38:44,360
this one man that was standing
in Joseph Smith's shoes.

1465
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:51,080
And therefore the lines broken,
they're following and claiming

1466
01:38:51,080 --> 01:38:55,280
is there one true line.
And I, I realized that in

1467
01:38:55,280 --> 01:38:58,720
fundamentalism, the biggest
conflicts come from claims of

1468
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:06,480
authority between the groups.
But that's where their one man

1469
01:39:06,480 --> 01:39:08,760
line is that I just named to
you.

1470
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:12,480
And if there's a break in that,
none of that makes sense what

1471
01:39:12,480 --> 01:39:16,400
they're propagating.
So does the FLDS just kind of

1472
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:23,000
like skim over Joseph Musser?
My grandfather made a statement

1473
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:28,560
that all the apostasies from
John Way Bartle till the split

1474
01:39:28,560 --> 01:39:31,880
in 1978 are Joseph Musser's
fault.

1475
01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:35,600
So he's he's looked on as the
bad guy.

1476
01:39:37,240 --> 01:39:40,560
So if anybody in the FLDS right
now, I think Joseph Muster is a

1477
01:39:40,560 --> 01:39:46,120
really bad guy.
That's interesting.

1478
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:51,320
It, it's almost like when, when
the FLDS church really becomes

1479
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:52,840
of age.
And again, correct me if I'm

1480
01:39:52,840 --> 01:39:57,720
wrong, I'm making an educated
guess or, or just kind of, you

1481
01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:01,160
know, trying to read the, the,
the, the forest from the trees

1482
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:04,080
here a little bit.
But it almost seems like from

1483
01:40:04,080 --> 01:40:08,440
the very beginning, there seems
to be a bit of isolationism

1484
01:40:08,440 --> 01:40:12,520
built into it, right?
Not recognizing certain guys,

1485
01:40:12,520 --> 01:40:16,720
glossing over some history and
just kind of deep sixing some

1486
01:40:16,720 --> 01:40:21,720
information from its members to
bolster their leadership's

1487
01:40:22,520 --> 01:40:24,640
authority claims.
Is that a fair assessment,

1488
01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:26,800
Ammon?
Yeah, very much so.

1489
01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:33,440
Until today, then you shouldn't
even be reading any books that

1490
01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:38,280
my father doesn't approve of
which isolate you further.

1491
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:48,080
So I'll say this, this kind of
talk really started around 1984

1492
01:40:48,320 --> 01:40:53,000
and grew and grew as my
grandfather took the leadership

1493
01:40:53,000 --> 01:40:58,000
and, you know, to the 10th power
when my father took over.

1494
01:40:59,560 --> 01:41:03,840
And my generation, and perhaps
part of the generation older

1495
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:07,640
than me, don't really understand
anything that went on with very

1496
01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:15,760
much depth.
And so the doctrine makes sense

1497
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:17,520
to them because that's all
they've heard.

1498
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:24,960
Wow.
And I know, I know, it's hard to

1499
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:29,320
understand the weight the profit
carries among that people.

1500
01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:31,640
No, I don't, I don't think.
It so.

1501
01:41:31,920 --> 01:41:34,880
Yeah, no, I can, I can see how
people can get there, right?

1502
01:41:35,400 --> 01:41:38,840
Because I, I think we even have
to back up further, right?

1503
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:43,960
And I'm, I'm, I've said this
before and I truly mean this,

1504
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:53,840
that, that 99.9% of the blame,
or maybe just, we'll just say

1505
01:41:53,840 --> 01:41:59,560
95% of the blame is, is on the
leadership that within the FLDS

1506
01:41:59,560 --> 01:42:02,680
church that either perpetrated
or went along with this.

1507
01:42:03,160 --> 01:42:08,400
However, none of these things
that happened that down there in

1508
01:42:08,400 --> 01:42:11,480
Texas and Short Creek and
anywhere else where these

1509
01:42:11,480 --> 01:42:17,600
atrocities were committed, those
can't happen unless the, the the

1510
01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:21,440
1940s and the 1950 raids happen,
right?

1511
01:42:22,000 --> 01:42:26,560
Because what that does is that
forces a people into the

1512
01:42:26,560 --> 01:42:30,960
shadows, right?
And when you have a people who

1513
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:34,880
have been beat up have have to
worry about their kids being

1514
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:38,640
taken away, you force them into
the shadows.

1515
01:42:38,960 --> 01:42:44,880
That gives people with I'll
intent the opportunity to come

1516
01:42:44,880 --> 01:42:48,800
along and say, see, I told you
they're out to get you, right?

1517
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:51,240
You got to listen to me.
I'm the one that's going to keep

1518
01:42:51,240 --> 01:42:53,920
you safe.
You just put all your faith in

1519
01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:58,560
me and I'll make sure nothing
that these things never happened

1520
01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:02,440
to you again, right?
So the only way that this is

1521
01:43:02,440 --> 01:43:07,640
truly possible to happen is if
you set the table 1st and you

1522
01:43:07,640 --> 01:43:12,160
set the table by forcing a
people into the shadows and, and

1523
01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:15,200
only nastiness happens within
the shadows, right?

1524
01:43:16,880 --> 01:43:21,760
Nothing good happens there.
And so those raids and the

1525
01:43:21,760 --> 01:43:24,320
people who perpetrated those
raids, you know, the, I

1526
01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:27,720
shouldn't say people, but the
entities that perpetrated those

1527
01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:31,520
raids were the governments of
Arizona, Utah, and quite

1528
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:35,320
frankly, the LDS church, right?
We know that they did, they did

1529
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:38,560
have a hand in this.
And I do believe that in some

1530
01:43:38,560 --> 01:43:43,160
ways they, they helped set the
table for, for some of these

1531
01:43:43,160 --> 01:43:48,480
other men to, to essentially be
able to, to enslave a lot of

1532
01:43:48,480 --> 01:43:52,360
people.
Correct.

1533
01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:57,560
And the 1953 raids, the huge
catalyst for it really, because

1534
01:43:57,560 --> 01:44:00,280
that's what I remember hearing
about over and over as I grew

1535
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:01,600
up.
And that's why we were so

1536
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:04,840
isolated from the world.
We wouldn't talk to people out

1537
01:44:04,840 --> 01:44:07,400
in the world.
We wouldn't talk to a news

1538
01:44:07,400 --> 01:44:10,280
person or anything because they
were just out to get us.

1539
01:44:11,840 --> 01:44:18,240
And that set the stage for a man
to have a lot more power over

1540
01:44:18,240 --> 01:44:21,800
the people.
And then you have the contention

1541
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:29,040
that came up in the 1980s about
the one man doctrine, and the

1542
01:44:29,040 --> 01:44:32,600
group basically splits in half.
The group that went with the one

1543
01:44:32,600 --> 01:44:37,840
man doctrine now teaches very
strongly your subservience to

1544
01:44:37,840 --> 01:44:40,080
this one man.
And whatever he says that he's

1545
01:44:40,080 --> 01:44:45,120
your connection to God.
And whatever he says goes, he

1546
01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:48,080
can tell you what to do.
He can tell you who to marry.

1547
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:53,720
And I know the placement
marriage kind of started in the

1548
01:44:53,720 --> 01:44:58,480
late 40s, but it it was a slow
build up and it slowly build up

1549
01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:03,560
through the years till you get
to the 80s and it was pretty

1550
01:45:03,560 --> 01:45:07,600
cemented by then.
So by 1990, no one got married

1551
01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:12,360
unless the prophet married him.
And that also gave him the power

1552
01:45:12,360 --> 01:45:18,280
to take them away.
And if you can control all the

1553
01:45:18,280 --> 01:45:22,160
women and you can control the
money that the people donate,

1554
01:45:22,200 --> 01:45:27,520
you control the man.
And if if the leader can take

1555
01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:30,200
your wives and children away
from you, you're going to be

1556
01:45:30,200 --> 01:45:32,480
pretty careful what you do so
you don't lose them.

1557
01:45:33,880 --> 01:45:40,520
So that gave him immense power.
I mentioned one thing that was

1558
01:45:40,520 --> 01:45:43,680
off was the Atom God doctrine
that was taught and is still

1559
01:45:43,680 --> 01:45:50,480
taught and to me it ties in with
the degree of power he has and

1560
01:45:50,480 --> 01:45:54,720
is able to use with the people
and the amount of control he

1561
01:45:54,720 --> 01:46:02,680
has.
Wow, so so so explain to me your

1562
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:07,840
father's or or the FLDS idea of
the Atom God doctrine?

1563
01:46:07,840 --> 01:46:12,960
What is it?
OK, so let's say in around 1990

1564
01:46:14,120 --> 01:46:17,760
there was a sermon published
that for many years I thought my

1565
01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:19,720
grandfather had given.
It was under his name.

1566
01:46:20,480 --> 01:46:24,760
And I didn't realize till way
later that a lot of it wasn't

1567
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:29,560
what my father put together.
And it pretty much goes like

1568
01:46:29,560 --> 01:46:35,440
this.
Father Adam came as our the

1569
01:46:35,440 --> 01:46:39,560
father of our spirits.
He came to this earth to start

1570
01:46:41,000 --> 01:46:43,440
giving our spirits, bodies,
soul.

1571
01:46:44,880 --> 01:46:49,160
Adam's the God of this earth.
And where it starts to get mixed

1572
01:46:49,160 --> 01:46:58,040
up is he says Jesus Christ is
Jehovah and Jehovah is the

1573
01:46:58,040 --> 01:47:04,640
father of Michael's spirit.
So he equates Jesus Christ with

1574
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:08,800
Jehovah, says he's Michael's
father of his spirit.

1575
01:47:09,760 --> 01:47:12,800
And when Michael came down to
start the spirits on this earth,

1576
01:47:12,800 --> 01:47:17,360
he needed someone to come and
make an atonement.

1577
01:47:17,800 --> 01:47:22,680
And the only person that could
come was his father, the father

1578
01:47:22,680 --> 01:47:25,120
of his spirit who was Jesus
Christ.

1579
01:47:26,480 --> 01:47:32,840
And so he's saying Jesus Christ
is Michael's father, and then

1580
01:47:32,840 --> 01:47:35,160
when Jesus Christ comes, he's
Michael's son.

1581
01:47:36,040 --> 01:47:37,720
And this is the way that gods do
it.

1582
01:47:37,920 --> 01:47:45,360
Is this sort of reincarnation
anyway so everyone in the FLES.

1583
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:47,320
I'm.
Trying to wrap up yet?

1584
01:47:47,760 --> 01:47:49,440
Yeah, I'm trying to wrap.
My mind around it.

1585
01:47:52,400 --> 01:47:57,360
OK, so so it's like, I'm, I'm
sorry, I don't mean to make jest

1586
01:47:57,360 --> 01:47:58,720
here, I'm just trying to figure
this out.

1587
01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:02,560
So like, Jesus is his own
grandpa is that, is that kind of

1588
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:05,560
what we're looking at?
OK, all right.

1589
01:48:06,040 --> 01:48:08,680
I wanted to make sure it wasn't
that simple, but apparently it

1590
01:48:08,800 --> 01:48:13,000
was kind of that simple.
Yes, so.

1591
01:48:14,440 --> 01:48:19,520
And the way this gets carried
away is so Jesus is way above

1592
01:48:19,520 --> 01:48:24,760
Michael in their understanding
and he's in charge of

1593
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:26,560
everything.
Michael's just a little bit more

1594
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:28,400
to the side.
Gotcha.

1595
01:48:29,080 --> 01:48:33,880
Anyway, the way they're able to
use this now is he slowly

1596
01:48:33,880 --> 01:48:37,560
started to teach in the 90s that
every one of the prophets on

1597
01:48:37,560 --> 01:48:42,160
this earth has already been
through a mortal probation on a

1598
01:48:42,160 --> 01:48:46,360
different earth, been
resurrected, and they're back

1599
01:48:46,360 --> 01:48:48,760
here to help Michael exalt his
children.

1600
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:53,200
So they're reincarnated too.
And what that means in the minds

1601
01:48:53,200 --> 01:48:57,080
of the people is that my father
is already a God.

1602
01:48:57,200 --> 01:49:01,600
Before he ever came here, he was
already a God and that makes him

1603
01:49:01,600 --> 01:49:07,680
infallible and that that can
help you understand why he has

1604
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:10,600
the power he does over their
minds because they're thinking,

1605
01:49:10,600 --> 01:49:15,680
well, this man's already a God.
You know, maybe he's been a God

1606
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:19,760
on several earths before this
and we better just listen up and

1607
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:21,680
if anybody says something
against him, they're just

1608
01:49:21,680 --> 01:49:24,080
fighting against him being a
God.

1609
01:49:24,080 --> 01:49:30,840
So a.
God, whoa, dude, that's nuts.

1610
01:49:31,200 --> 01:49:37,120
OK, so like the, the Pharaohs in
Egypt would be proud of that

1611
01:49:37,120 --> 01:49:39,040
stance.
Like they, you know, they they

1612
01:49:40,000 --> 01:49:41,920
they taught something kind of
similar, right?

1613
01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:44,400
They were God Incarnate on the
earth.

1614
01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:50,640
Oh, man.
OK, so at any point does your

1615
01:49:51,400 --> 01:49:55,440
does your father ever
acknowledge that?

1616
01:49:55,760 --> 01:50:00,320
Does he ever try to say I am
this guy from this time or or

1617
01:50:00,320 --> 01:50:04,960
anything like that?
Yeah, in 2011 he told us that

1618
01:50:04,960 --> 01:50:11,920
his God name was Eloi Helga.
Anyway, that's the first time I

1619
01:50:11,920 --> 01:50:18,880
heard him admit it.
And now he claims that he's been

1620
01:50:18,880 --> 01:50:24,960
part of Godhead on other earths
and he he's to the point now

1621
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:28,440
where he'll say he's the
receiving word direct from

1622
01:50:28,440 --> 01:50:31,760
Elohim and not Jesus Christ
because Jesus Christ doesn't

1623
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:33,320
quite understand all that's
going on.

1624
01:50:34,440 --> 01:50:36,960
And he's in a way set himself
above him.

1625
01:50:37,800 --> 01:50:41,360
And I'll say.
Set himself above Jesus Christ.

1626
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:46,560
Today, but at the same time he's
quite schizophrenic too.

1627
01:50:46,560 --> 01:50:48,760
So he's he's totally removed
from reality.

1628
01:50:49,160 --> 01:50:52,120
Sure.
So I'll give him that little bit

1629
01:50:52,120 --> 01:50:54,160
of room, but.
Wow.

1630
01:50:55,480 --> 01:50:57,960
Well, in in.
Oh, go ahead.

1631
01:50:57,960 --> 01:51:00,920
I'm sorry, Ammon.
No, in trying to sort this out

1632
01:51:00,920 --> 01:51:04,120
as I left this Adam God
doctrine, because that's a huge

1633
01:51:04,120 --> 01:51:07,880
thing you got to put away is
he's not a God.

1634
01:51:08,240 --> 01:51:14,760
Gods don't hurt little children.
Anyway, I was talking about this

1635
01:51:14,760 --> 01:51:19,000
with one of my friends that
wasn't in the FLDS and they kind

1636
01:51:19,000 --> 01:51:24,160
of dawned on me and all if Jesus
Christ was the father of

1637
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:28,720
Michael's spirit and had to be
born as Michael's son, that

1638
01:51:28,920 --> 01:51:33,800
that's like me saying as if I
attained to godhood like Father

1639
01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:38,120
Michael and I would have to be
his father on another earth.

1640
01:51:38,120 --> 01:51:41,360
And that's just blasphemous.
Right.

1641
01:51:42,080 --> 01:51:44,560
To even think about that.
Right.

1642
01:51:45,200 --> 01:51:48,200
You know, it's funny people.
People get upset with the Adam

1643
01:51:48,200 --> 01:51:51,880
God Doctrine as taught by Joseph
and Brigham as being

1644
01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:55,440
blasphemous, right?
And I'm like, now I'm like, oh,

1645
01:51:55,440 --> 01:51:59,240
bro, you don't even know, right?
Like there's, there's another

1646
01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:03,720
interpretation of this that will
yeah, wow.

1647
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:08,120
You know, and and this is one of
those things that that M and I

1648
01:52:08,120 --> 01:52:14,280
think is so important to
understand, right, is that I am

1649
01:52:14,280 --> 01:52:18,920
four people believing whatever
it is they want, right, As long

1650
01:52:18,920 --> 01:52:22,040
as they don't infringe upon the
rights of another, right?

1651
01:52:22,040 --> 01:52:24,080
It's it's kind of the way I look
at it, right?

1652
01:52:24,080 --> 01:52:27,800
I, I'm very, I'm very
libertarian in that sense.

1653
01:52:27,800 --> 01:52:31,920
I'm a guy who believes that the
that the, the, the solution to

1654
01:52:31,920 --> 01:52:35,400
bad ideas, whether that's
religious or political or

1655
01:52:35,400 --> 01:52:39,920
whatever, isn't to suppress the
bad idea, but to counter it with

1656
01:52:39,920 --> 01:52:46,000
a better idea, right?
But that said, doctrine can have

1657
01:52:46,000 --> 01:52:50,120
consequences, right?
And so if a doctrine's espoused

1658
01:52:50,400 --> 01:52:56,280
that turns a mortal man into a
God in this moment, right in

1659
01:52:56,280 --> 01:53:01,200
this time, there, there are
issues with that that we need to

1660
01:53:01,200 --> 01:53:05,520
be very careful about right now.
Look, I know a ton of guys who

1661
01:53:05,520 --> 01:53:08,480
claim to be the one mighty and
strong, and a lot of them are

1662
01:53:08,480 --> 01:53:12,080
really harmless, right?
But there's a few that I'm like,

1663
01:53:12,800 --> 01:53:15,440
bro, and that's just the one
mighty and strong.

1664
01:53:15,440 --> 01:53:18,240
That's not saying that you're
already a God, right?

1665
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:24,760
That's a different ball of wax.
And, and so when, when that gets

1666
01:53:25,680 --> 01:53:29,320
put forward, that, hey, this guy
who's leading us here on this

1667
01:53:29,320 --> 01:53:36,000
earth right now is a God, How,
how can you combat that, right?

1668
01:53:36,280 --> 01:53:40,680
The only way would be to put
forth a correct understanding of

1669
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:46,120
the nature of deity so that
everything could get put back

1670
01:53:46,120 --> 01:53:51,360
into its proper place, right?
Look, I'm a guy who studied a

1671
01:53:51,360 --> 01:53:55,280
lot of different faith
traditions before I settled on

1672
01:53:55,280 --> 01:54:00,400
Mormonism.
And I remember there was a

1673
01:54:00,400 --> 01:54:03,080
theologian.
I can never remember his name

1674
01:54:03,200 --> 01:54:06,040
and I've tried hard to find it,
but I know I read it somewhere.

1675
01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:11,120
And he said every heresy begins
with a misconception of deity.

1676
01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:15,120
Right now, obviously he'd look
at the Adam God doctrine and

1677
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:18,400
Bach, right?
The the, the, you know, even as

1678
01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:22,480
taught by Joseph and Brigham,
however, he he was correct,

1679
01:54:22,840 --> 01:54:27,480
right?
If you can unseat God from his

1680
01:54:27,480 --> 01:54:33,200
throne in your mind and replace
that with anything else, you

1681
01:54:33,200 --> 01:54:37,440
kind of have Car Blanc now to do
whatever it is you want within

1682
01:54:37,440 --> 01:54:41,200
that religious framework to make
it fit something of your own

1683
01:54:41,200 --> 01:54:44,400
heart's desire rather than what
God really is.

1684
01:54:44,720 --> 01:54:48,760
And you also affect the
relationship of God to his

1685
01:54:48,760 --> 01:54:51,200
children.
And I I really cringe at that

1686
01:54:51,200 --> 01:54:53,680
idea.
Right.

1687
01:54:55,000 --> 01:54:58,480
So that was a major, major thing
for me to dig into.

1688
01:54:58,480 --> 01:55:02,280
And I think anyone coming out of
that group, I'd encourage them

1689
01:55:02,280 --> 01:55:06,440
to set their minds straight
about the Adam God doctrine,

1690
01:55:06,520 --> 01:55:10,000
study into it what Brigham and
Joseph themselves taught,

1691
01:55:10,120 --> 01:55:13,720
instead of the interpretations
we were given years down the

1692
01:55:13,720 --> 01:55:15,200
road.
Yeah.

1693
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:18,720
And come to that understanding
because that that's a big thing

1694
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:20,880
in your mind to overcome.
Absolutely.

1695
01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:27,920
And one thing I've recognized,
too, is whenever someone starts

1696
01:55:27,920 --> 01:55:32,480
to abridge people's free agency,
then you may know they're in the

1697
01:55:32,480 --> 01:55:34,120
wrong.
Yeah.

1698
01:55:34,120 --> 01:55:37,440
And if you're part of a movement
that you cannot question, that's

1699
01:55:38,120 --> 01:55:40,200
that's when you better start
asking questions.

1700
01:55:40,920 --> 01:55:43,160
Absolutely.
Let me ask you this.

1701
01:55:43,160 --> 01:55:45,840
Where did you go to get a
correct understanding of the

1702
01:55:45,840 --> 01:55:48,080
Adam God doctrine, right?
Because it's one of those

1703
01:55:48,080 --> 01:55:52,360
mysteries that while you can
find allusions to it in the

1704
01:55:52,360 --> 01:55:56,520
scripture, it doesn't
necessarily always spell it out

1705
01:55:56,520 --> 01:55:59,760
100%.
So what kind of material, if

1706
01:55:59,760 --> 01:56:02,920
someone was to come to you and
be like, hey, I'm coming out of

1707
01:56:02,920 --> 01:56:05,480
this group, where do I what,
what do I read in order to get a

1708
01:56:05,480 --> 01:56:07,160
good understanding?
Where did you go?

1709
01:56:07,160 --> 01:56:10,360
What?
What did you read to get you to

1710
01:56:10,360 --> 01:56:14,440
get your mind wrapped around a
proper understanding of the Adam

1711
01:56:14,440 --> 01:56:19,360
God doctrine?
OK, so I went back to Brigham

1712
01:56:19,360 --> 01:56:24,480
and Young and Joseph Smith's
talks, and I was going to sit

1713
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:29,320
down with one of my relates
through the barbell line.

1714
01:56:29,520 --> 01:56:31,640
So I'm related through my
mother.

1715
01:56:32,720 --> 01:56:35,560
I'm going to descend into my
aunt to Spartle, who's John

1716
01:56:35,560 --> 01:56:38,000
Barnell's brother.
He was associated with the

1717
01:56:38,000 --> 01:56:41,600
Woolies and the beginning of the
fundamentalist movement, and he

1718
01:56:41,600 --> 01:56:44,440
has a lot of descendants that
are fundamentalists outside of

1719
01:56:44,440 --> 01:56:48,000
the FLDS.
And I was went to sit down with

1720
01:56:48,000 --> 01:56:50,680
him and discuss this, and I
pulled up a quote from Brigham

1721
01:56:50,680 --> 01:56:56,160
Young in the journals.
And Brigham Young very expressly

1722
01:56:56,480 --> 01:57:01,800
stated in there that the father
of our spirits and the Father of

1723
01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:05,040
the Spirit of Jesus Christ is
the man who came to the Garden

1724
01:57:05,040 --> 01:57:11,200
of Eden to start this earth and
the population of the humans on

1725
01:57:11,200 --> 01:57:12,680
it.
And that was Father Michael.

1726
01:57:13,280 --> 01:57:16,520
And that was my answer.
I was quite shocked to find it

1727
01:57:16,520 --> 01:57:19,880
put so plainly.
I don't remember ever having

1728
01:57:19,880 --> 01:57:24,920
heard that call as I grew up
where Brigham Young expressly

1729
01:57:24,920 --> 01:57:29,880
stated that Father Michael was
the father of Jesus Christ,

1730
01:57:29,880 --> 01:57:35,760
spirit and body.
And that put to rest what my

1731
01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:37,720
father and my grandfather had
taught me.

1732
01:57:39,040 --> 01:57:43,440
And and so I did a deep dive,
searching up anything I could

1733
01:57:43,440 --> 01:57:47,560
from him.
John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff,

1734
01:57:47,680 --> 01:57:52,040
Joseph Smith, any authority in
the church in those days when it

1735
01:57:52,040 --> 01:57:55,040
was actually being taught and
read what they said about it.

1736
01:57:56,000 --> 01:57:58,760
There's some journal references
from George Buchanan.

1737
01:57:59,560 --> 01:58:03,640
And I also came onto this
podcast and listen to any

1738
01:58:03,640 --> 01:58:08,000
episode you had done with
fundamentalists on the Adam God

1739
01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:10,320
Doctrine where they bring all
those quotes in and talk about

1740
01:58:10,320 --> 01:58:14,240
it.
And that really helped me out.

1741
01:58:14,240 --> 01:58:19,160
And I'll say several of my
siblings, I have several sisters

1742
01:58:19,160 --> 01:58:22,120
that are also married in plural
marriage to other

1743
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:24,480
fundamentalists outside of the
affiliates group.

1744
01:58:25,560 --> 01:58:26,920
Good for them.
Kind of went through a lot of

1745
01:58:26,920 --> 01:58:30,120
this at the same time as I did.
Good for them.

1746
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:35,680
So once once you have that put
into place a proper

1747
01:58:35,680 --> 01:58:39,840
understanding of deity, if you
will, what what happens from

1748
01:58:39,840 --> 01:58:42,120
there for you?
Do you find that your your,

1749
01:58:42,120 --> 01:58:46,080
your, your, your spiritual life
is kind of reinvigorated at that

1750
01:58:46,080 --> 01:58:48,360
point?
Do you do you start digging?

1751
01:58:48,400 --> 01:58:51,840
Are there other doctrines that
you start digging into to check

1752
01:58:51,840 --> 01:58:54,520
the veracity of that that were
taught to you?

1753
01:58:56,040 --> 01:58:59,520
Yes, so of course you dig
through the one man doctrine,

1754
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:04,520
the one man and and how did we
think we had a line of authority

1755
01:59:04,520 --> 01:59:10,320
that maybe we didn't have?
And I really went back to the

1756
01:59:10,320 --> 01:59:16,720
history of what happened from
1890 till the 1930s, nineteen

1757
01:59:16,720 --> 01:59:20,080
40s.
And you have excellent episodes

1758
01:59:20,080 --> 01:59:24,520
on that.
I have my grandfather on my

1759
01:59:25,160 --> 01:59:28,600
mother's side.
I he has brothers that are still

1760
01:59:28,600 --> 01:59:33,160
alive that I've talked to and
learned some of this from.

1761
01:59:33,160 --> 01:59:37,720
But then I'll say the podcast
series you did it on that some

1762
01:59:37,720 --> 01:59:39,360
of the best information you can
find.

1763
01:59:39,680 --> 01:59:41,920
The history of what actually
went down in those days to

1764
01:59:41,920 --> 01:59:44,040
understand why we're at where we
are now.

1765
01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:51,440
I did have the LDS church try
real hard to get me to join, but

1766
01:59:52,800 --> 01:59:55,360
it's pretty hard to be a
fundamentalist and know what you

1767
01:59:55,360 --> 01:59:57,280
do and then go back to the
church, right?

1768
01:59:57,720 --> 02:00:01,480
Basically impossible for me.
Yeah, I could tell you horror

1769
02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:03,520
stories, my man.
That's just for mine.

1770
02:00:05,680 --> 02:00:07,360
So say.
Horror stories, they were always

1771
02:00:07,360 --> 02:00:11,360
real nice, but man, there were
times just the the having to sit

1772
02:00:11,360 --> 02:00:13,840
through some things when you
know otherwise was just

1773
02:00:13,840 --> 02:00:18,800
frustrating was all But.
So I couldn't go to them, but I,

1774
02:00:19,680 --> 02:00:24,480
I felt very good about a lot of
these other fundamentalists out

1775
02:00:24,480 --> 02:00:29,920
here and I felt like I needed a
real legitimate baptism because

1776
02:00:29,920 --> 02:00:31,480
my father had been the one to
baptize me.

1777
02:00:31,480 --> 02:00:35,920
And then he did the member, non
member thing to where baptism

1778
02:00:35,920 --> 02:00:41,880
became pretty trite in the FLES.
And I felt like I needed

1779
02:00:41,880 --> 02:00:45,920
something legitimate.
So I got baptized again and the

1780
02:00:45,920 --> 02:00:50,560
priesthood again, and I was very
thankful and felt very, very

1781
02:00:50,560 --> 02:00:53,480
uplifted when it happened.
A different feeling than I had

1782
02:00:53,480 --> 02:00:57,800
felt as a younger man when I
first received those things.

1783
02:01:01,120 --> 02:01:06,640
Holy cow, dude, the fact you
were able to hold on to your

1784
02:01:06,640 --> 02:01:10,760
faith speaks volumes about you,
right?

1785
02:01:10,760 --> 02:01:14,600
That you.
Because I wouldn't blame

1786
02:01:14,600 --> 02:01:16,720
anybody, right?
Like if someone tells me, Oh

1787
02:01:16,720 --> 02:01:20,080
yeah, that person came out of
Colorado City during the bad

1788
02:01:20,080 --> 02:01:22,880
days and they just tossed
Mormonism to the side.

1789
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:26,080
And I'm, I'm a pretty faithful
guy, right?

1790
02:01:26,080 --> 02:01:29,960
I believe this stuff to my core.
But even I would have been like,

1791
02:01:29,960 --> 02:01:33,480
I get it, right?
I mean, it's tragic, but I get

1792
02:01:33,480 --> 02:01:36,440
it, right?
I'm not sure that kind of

1793
02:01:36,440 --> 02:01:40,080
damage, you know, that gets done
to a person.

1794
02:01:40,080 --> 02:01:42,680
I can I get it.
I get why someone doesn't want

1795
02:01:42,680 --> 02:01:47,400
to go back to that, right?
And that's tragic, the fact that

1796
02:01:47,480 --> 02:01:50,960
you're able to not just hold on
to what you did have, but the

1797
02:01:50,960 --> 02:01:54,160
fact that you were you were
brave enough to be like, OK,

1798
02:01:54,200 --> 02:01:57,000
let's just dig in and let's find
out what, what's really going on

1799
02:01:57,000 --> 02:01:59,000
here.
It it, it's commendable.

1800
02:01:59,000 --> 02:02:01,400
It really is.
Where do you think that came

1801
02:02:01,400 --> 02:02:02,920
from?
Do you think that that was just

1802
02:02:03,040 --> 02:02:07,520
early teaching and just having
that firm testimony that Jesus

1803
02:02:07,520 --> 02:02:11,080
is the Christ, there is a loving
God and Heavenly Father, and

1804
02:02:11,080 --> 02:02:14,640
that Joseph Smith was a prophet?
You think it was just those

1805
02:02:14,640 --> 02:02:18,320
those simple, basic truths that
anchored you through that time.

1806
02:02:18,520 --> 02:02:21,560
Yes, those are those are the
main and I remember in some of

1807
02:02:21,560 --> 02:02:27,000
the hardest times when I was in
the FLDS, coming to the point

1808
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:32,400
where I realized if nobody else
cares about me, then I know one

1809
02:02:32,400 --> 02:02:34,400
person that does and it's Jesus
Christ.

1810
02:02:34,880 --> 02:02:38,320
And if I can feel that love from
Him, I can make it through

1811
02:02:38,320 --> 02:02:43,840
whatever gets thrown at me.
And then as I came to realize

1812
02:02:43,840 --> 02:02:47,080
what had been going on, I felt
grounded in the gospel.

1813
02:02:48,080 --> 02:02:52,760
But I started searching the
scriptures to understand what

1814
02:02:52,760 --> 02:02:58,800
God said about different things
and how we had gone off.

1815
02:02:59,760 --> 02:03:05,920
Because how do I put this?
So I separated myself, stepped

1816
02:03:05,920 --> 02:03:09,920
back and looked at the whole
thing, almost third person.

1817
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:14,800
And a huge thing you have to do,
especially out of that group is

1818
02:03:15,880 --> 02:03:21,880
separate the gospel for more.
And Jess, he, he did a pretty

1819
02:03:21,880 --> 02:03:25,960
good job of trying to mimic
Joseph Smith in the eyes of the

1820
02:03:25,960 --> 02:03:28,760
group.
And especially the younger

1821
02:03:28,760 --> 02:03:33,920
generation has grown up
listening to his voice teach the

1822
02:03:33,920 --> 02:03:38,160
gospel.
They listen to it every day, and

1823
02:03:38,160 --> 02:03:42,160
that's almost all they've heard
way more than just digging in

1824
02:03:42,160 --> 02:03:44,680
and reading on their own.
And so their understanding of

1825
02:03:44,680 --> 02:03:49,720
the gospel, a lot of it comes
from what he said in what we

1826
02:03:49,720 --> 02:03:53,280
would call trainings that
they've listened to is talks.

1827
02:03:54,040 --> 02:03:57,560
And it takes a real effort to
separate the gospel from him

1828
02:03:57,560 --> 02:04:01,960
once you've grown up like that.
I mean, every day before they

1829
02:04:01,960 --> 02:04:05,840
start their school, they listen
to a devotional that he did on

1830
02:04:05,840 --> 02:04:09,320
me and they there's thousands of
phone calls from prison that are

1831
02:04:09,320 --> 02:04:10,800
recorded that they can listen
to.

1832
02:04:12,040 --> 02:04:16,400
There's history of the
priesthood that he recorded they

1833
02:04:16,400 --> 02:04:17,960
listen to.
And they can't really listen to

1834
02:04:17,960 --> 02:04:20,880
anyone else's because no one
else is approved and they're

1835
02:04:20,880 --> 02:04:23,720
required to listen to that.
So it's kind of drilled into

1836
02:04:23,720 --> 02:04:26,920
their heads and it becomes very
difficult to separate the gospel

1837
02:04:26,920 --> 02:04:30,560
from him.
So when you realize what he did

1838
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:34,320
and you don't separate the
gospel from him or don't feel

1839
02:04:34,320 --> 02:04:37,520
like you can, and it's really
easy to throw everything out and

1840
02:04:37,520 --> 02:04:43,320
just say this is all garbage.
And often, often they'll get to

1841
02:04:43,320 --> 02:04:47,120
where they're like him and
Joseph Smith are, you know,

1842
02:04:47,120 --> 02:04:48,600
twins.
They're they're they're the same

1843
02:04:48,600 --> 02:04:52,120
thing.
I came to realize quickly that

1844
02:04:52,680 --> 02:04:56,040
he was a counterfeit of Joseph
Smith.

1845
02:04:56,800 --> 02:05:00,000
And you couldn't find two more
opposite people in the world

1846
02:05:00,480 --> 02:05:05,880
because here you had Joseph
Smith, a farmer's boy, come in

1847
02:05:05,880 --> 02:05:09,600
with nothing.
And God the Father and his son

1848
02:05:09,600 --> 02:05:13,640
give him a mission.
They have him translate the Book

1849
02:05:13,640 --> 02:05:17,200
of Mormon and start a church.
And he grows a church into

1850
02:05:17,200 --> 02:05:21,440
thousands of faithful members
who are they're the salt of the

1851
02:05:21,440 --> 02:05:22,800
earth.
They're the best people, the

1852
02:05:22,800 --> 02:05:25,480
cream of the crop of other
churches.

1853
02:05:26,480 --> 02:05:29,120
And he grows at the church in
the hundreds of thousands of

1854
02:05:29,120 --> 02:05:33,960
members with revelation and
guidance and doctrine.

1855
02:05:34,160 --> 02:05:38,000
And even to this day, you know,
the more we learn about the

1856
02:05:38,000 --> 02:05:41,040
Bible and everything, the more
we realize how inspired Joseph

1857
02:05:41,040 --> 02:05:44,680
Smith was.
Then you bring my father in.

1858
02:05:44,680 --> 02:05:51,680
He came to a church that was
about 10,000 people and he

1859
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:57,720
pillaged and destroyed and broke
up, tore families apart, broke

1860
02:05:57,720 --> 02:06:01,120
everything down and destroyed
everything.

1861
02:06:01,120 --> 02:06:03,680
So it's the absolute opposite of
what Joseph did.

1862
02:06:03,680 --> 02:06:07,480
And that's one good way to look
at the difference between the

1863
02:06:07,480 --> 02:06:10,840
two men.
One built, one destroyed.

1864
02:06:13,160 --> 02:06:16,840
Another thing that I came across
in the Bible.

1865
02:06:17,000 --> 02:06:21,400
So he had, he at the time, he
had forbidden marriage, right?

1866
02:06:21,880 --> 02:06:25,520
Forbidden and having children.
He'd also started to forbid

1867
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:29,640
meat.
And there's a quote from Paul

1868
02:06:29,640 --> 02:06:32,920
and Timothy, I think, that says
in the last days there shall

1869
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:37,320
come a man telling you to
abstain from marriage and

1870
02:06:37,320 --> 02:06:40,240
forbidding to eat meat.
These beware of.

1871
02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:43,600
And I don't know the exact
quote, but that was that hit.

1872
02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:46,080
So spot on.
When I read, I was like, oh, my

1873
02:06:46,080 --> 02:06:48,600
goodness, we're living this very
thing right now.

1874
02:06:48,600 --> 02:06:51,600
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

1875
02:06:51,720 --> 02:06:54,720
And that's music too.
A guy's ears like me, who really

1876
02:06:54,720 --> 02:06:58,240
loves to smoke brisket.
I just feel like I'm fine right

1877
02:06:58,320 --> 02:07:04,920
there.
No, it it's fascinating, right?

1878
02:07:04,920 --> 02:07:10,120
Because Christ himself warned us
about false Christs and false

1879
02:07:10,120 --> 02:07:13,600
prophets, right?
And in our in in the story

1880
02:07:13,600 --> 02:07:16,640
you've told here in the account
you've given, I don't want to

1881
02:07:16,640 --> 02:07:18,160
say story.
That's not the right word in the

1882
02:07:18,160 --> 02:07:21,880
account that you give.
Both of those boxes are checked,

1883
02:07:22,360 --> 02:07:26,280
right?
Maybe not so much directly with

1884
02:07:26,280 --> 02:07:30,680
Christ, but he but but but your
father puts himself in that

1885
02:07:30,680 --> 02:07:34,640
Messiah place right where he's
like, Oh, I'm.

1886
02:07:34,640 --> 02:07:36,720
Separately.
For your sins, you know?

1887
02:07:37,040 --> 02:07:40,240
And then he goes on to say, I
was already a God once, I'm a

1888
02:07:40,240 --> 02:07:43,560
God now.
I mean, he's checking all those

1889
02:07:43,560 --> 02:07:45,920
boxes.
Wow.

1890
02:07:46,200 --> 02:07:48,240
Wow.
Would you discover as far as

1891
02:07:48,240 --> 02:07:50,000
placement, marriage?
What did you do?

1892
02:07:50,000 --> 02:07:54,000
Any history or research on that?
Yes, I read a book.

1893
02:07:54,000 --> 02:07:56,560
I don't remember who the writer
was that kind of wrote a history

1894
02:07:56,560 --> 02:08:02,120
of it and showed how the same
way it was set up, made so the

1895
02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:07,200
families could be torn apart.
And I don't like placement

1896
02:08:07,200 --> 02:08:08,760
marriage, I'll tell you that at
all.

1897
02:08:09,800 --> 02:08:14,320
I feel like, I feel like it is
an abridgment of free agency.

1898
02:08:15,400 --> 02:08:19,520
And I've, I've seen many
instances where it was pretty

1899
02:08:19,520 --> 02:08:23,040
obvious that the marriage was
not an inspired arrangement,

1900
02:08:25,280 --> 02:08:28,000
right?
And now I even know he made

1901
02:08:28,000 --> 02:08:31,320
statements to the effect like,
we'll give this man a life to

1902
02:08:31,400 --> 02:08:34,760
humble him or tell this girl,
we're going to marry you to this

1903
02:08:34,760 --> 02:08:36,360
man and it's going to be a test
for you.

1904
02:08:37,000 --> 02:08:41,480
You know, things like that
happened to the don't sound at

1905
02:08:41,480 --> 02:08:47,360
all like revelation.
So I'm grateful because I got to

1906
02:08:47,360 --> 02:08:49,840
choose my own wife and I
wouldn't have it any other way.

1907
02:08:50,280 --> 02:08:52,000
That's awesome.
That's awesome.

1908
02:08:53,160 --> 02:08:56,080
That's that's, that's awesome.
And you still have a testimonial

1909
02:08:56,080 --> 02:08:58,480
plural marriage.
Absolutely.

1910
02:08:58,480 --> 02:09:01,800
I I love the principle.
I was born through it.

1911
02:09:02,520 --> 02:09:07,800
I love my mother who was
faithful in that my father did

1912
02:09:07,800 --> 02:09:10,640
wrong.
I absolutely admit that.

1913
02:09:10,640 --> 02:09:16,160
I feel like what he did was a a
great stain on the principle and

1914
02:09:16,160 --> 02:09:20,000
he was not living the principle
correctly.

1915
02:09:21,520 --> 02:09:26,000
But I have honorable progenitors
who did live it right.

1916
02:09:26,560 --> 02:09:31,080
And I'll say David, David,
Willie Moore, Jeffs, who was one

1917
02:09:31,080 --> 02:09:34,800
of the men associated with
Joseph Mosser, another man in

1918
02:09:34,800 --> 02:09:36,400
the early days of
fundamentalism.

1919
02:09:36,840 --> 02:09:41,600
Fundamentalism.
His father, William, and

1920
02:09:41,600 --> 02:09:46,480
William's father Samuel, all
live plural marriage, right?

1921
02:09:46,520 --> 02:09:48,600
So I wouldn't, I wouldn't exist
without it.

1922
02:09:48,600 --> 02:09:51,800
And I've seen it lived
beautifully by families that

1923
02:09:51,800 --> 02:09:55,040
tried to live right.
Absolutely, absolutely.

1924
02:09:58,520 --> 02:10:02,920
I got some more questions, but I
want to make sure that you is

1925
02:10:02,920 --> 02:10:05,560
there anything that we haven't
covered yet that you really want

1926
02:10:05,560 --> 02:10:08,240
to get to or cover before I ask
these questions?

1927
02:10:09,760 --> 02:10:12,280
I think, I think I've got most
the nails on the head.

1928
02:10:12,280 --> 02:10:14,240
I'm sure I'll think of a ton of
things when we get done.

1929
02:10:15,080 --> 02:10:19,200
You know what you, I've told
everyone this and it's true You

1930
02:10:19,200 --> 02:10:22,080
have once you've been on once
you got standing invitation, all

1931
02:10:22,080 --> 02:10:25,080
you got to do is give me a call.
You got my number now I'll bring

1932
02:10:25,080 --> 02:10:26,880
you right back on.
I don't have a problem with that

1933
02:10:26,880 --> 02:10:30,040
at all, Ammon.
So let, let me ask a couple of

1934
02:10:30,040 --> 02:10:36,680
questions here because I feel
like that this is important for

1935
02:10:36,680 --> 02:10:40,560
for us as fundamentalists
outside the FLDS to kind of get

1936
02:10:40,560 --> 02:10:44,480
a handle on here.
I think we've shown where, where

1937
02:10:44,480 --> 02:10:46,400
things can go off the rails,
right?

1938
02:10:48,000 --> 02:10:51,840
Overbearing anytime someone
tries to infringe upon your

1939
02:10:51,840 --> 02:10:54,960
agency.
And look, I count holding your

1940
02:10:54,960 --> 02:10:59,360
family hostage as an
infringement of your agency,

1941
02:10:59,360 --> 02:11:01,840
right?
Anytime you can't speak out

1942
02:11:02,400 --> 02:11:08,040
against an individual because
you're afraid of the pushback,

1943
02:11:08,280 --> 02:11:15,920
that's that's an issue.
That's that's 100% an issue and

1944
02:11:15,920 --> 02:11:19,600
and how certain doctrines and
ideas can can set us up for

1945
02:11:19,600 --> 02:11:24,760
failure, if you will.
With that said, and, and you

1946
02:11:24,760 --> 02:11:31,520
have a, a, a perspective here on
the FLDS that I certainly do not

1947
02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:33,880
that many of my, my listeners do
not.

1948
02:11:35,200 --> 02:11:39,320
How is it we as as
fundamentalists on the outside

1949
02:11:39,400 --> 02:11:44,000
of the FLDS Church, what can we
do to help those who are still

1950
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:45,920
there?
Is there anything we can do?

1951
02:11:48,080 --> 02:11:53,120
I would say perhaps the best
thing is to be inviting.

1952
02:11:53,240 --> 02:11:58,040
And there's a stigma attached to
the FLDS that's really hard to

1953
02:11:58,040 --> 02:12:02,200
get past.
And I don't blame people for the

1954
02:12:02,200 --> 02:12:06,640
prejudice they feel.
I really don't because we stood

1955
02:12:06,640 --> 02:12:08,440
up for what went on for way too
long.

1956
02:12:08,440 --> 02:12:11,520
And, and I'll say the people are
very ignorant of what's going on

1957
02:12:11,520 --> 02:12:16,000
still in the FLDS.
For the most part, they believe

1958
02:12:16,000 --> 02:12:18,120
the very same things you and I
do still.

1959
02:12:18,520 --> 02:12:23,920
Sure.
And if they can see, especially

1960
02:12:23,920 --> 02:12:27,480
as things accelerate and
continue to fall apart there,

1961
02:12:28,040 --> 02:12:31,440
but there are people that still
live the gospel the way they

1962
02:12:31,440 --> 02:12:35,560
hope to all their lives.
There is AI think a very good

1963
02:12:35,960 --> 02:12:39,120
chance that more of them will
come and want to live the way

1964
02:12:39,120 --> 02:12:43,600
we're living instead of throwing
it all away as they learn the

1965
02:12:43,600 --> 02:12:46,680
truth.
So I think being inviting and

1966
02:12:46,680 --> 02:12:51,680
ready to help them understand.
And it's really hard to come out

1967
02:12:51,680 --> 02:12:54,280
and have people start pointing
at you and say, hey, you guys

1968
02:12:54,280 --> 02:12:57,520
are believing this crazy thing
and that crazy thing, you're all

1969
02:12:57,520 --> 02:12:58,720
wrong.
We're right.

1970
02:12:58,840 --> 02:13:04,000
That's that's really hard and a
really quite a turn off for

1971
02:13:04,000 --> 02:13:08,720
people out here.
So the invitation is probably

1972
02:13:08,720 --> 02:13:13,480
one of the biggest things, the
kindness, realizing that we

1973
02:13:13,480 --> 02:13:17,200
aren't out here to destroy them.
We're not out trying to take

1974
02:13:17,200 --> 02:13:18,560
their lives.
We're not trying to take their

1975
02:13:18,560 --> 02:13:23,040
homes, we're just here to help
and to live the gospel, to rub

1976
02:13:23,040 --> 02:13:27,080
shoulders.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1977
02:13:28,360 --> 02:13:33,720
And I think you hit on something
so important, right is this idea

1978
02:13:33,720 --> 02:13:39,360
of not scoffing at somebody for
what they believe in at that

1979
02:13:39,360 --> 02:13:43,880
moment.
I am a walking example of, of a

1980
02:13:43,880 --> 02:13:47,080
guy who's evolved in my beliefs,
right?

1981
02:13:47,400 --> 02:13:52,400
Not like the Darwin kind of
evolved, but as, as I got to

1982
02:13:52,400 --> 02:13:57,160
clarify that as as you get, as
you get more light and

1983
02:13:57,160 --> 02:14:00,400
knowledge, things become more
available, more readily

1984
02:14:00,440 --> 02:14:05,320
apparent, right?
And so, so often we want to use

1985
02:14:05,320 --> 02:14:09,840
that as that knowledge we have
is kind of a badge of honor,

1986
02:14:09,880 --> 02:14:12,960
right?
And I've always said within the

1987
02:14:12,960 --> 02:14:17,840
gospel of Jesus Christ, those
who have more knowledge should

1988
02:14:17,840 --> 02:14:20,720
be the greatest of servants,
right?

1989
02:14:21,120 --> 02:14:25,560
That's, that's really what we're
called to do is to, to point

1990
02:14:25,560 --> 02:14:29,440
others towards Christ.
And you're not going to be able

1991
02:14:29,440 --> 02:14:32,120
to be an effective servant by
telling you, telling someone,

1992
02:14:32,120 --> 02:14:36,520
hey, I told you so or telling
someone how weird their beliefs

1993
02:14:36,520 --> 02:14:37,280
are.
Right?

1994
02:14:38,160 --> 02:14:43,760
I, I think we, we have a, a task
in front of us that is going is

1995
02:14:43,760 --> 02:14:47,920
one of, of service to our
brothers and sisters who were

1996
02:14:47,920 --> 02:14:52,280
caught in that.
I'm sorry, that horror show that

1997
02:14:52,280 --> 02:14:55,880
that we have to really minister
to now in a very effective way.

1998
02:14:56,480 --> 02:14:58,560
And we're going to have to kind
of be on our game.

1999
02:14:59,920 --> 02:15:02,120
Right.
Where, where, Where does the

2000
02:15:02,120 --> 02:15:03,320
group stand now?
Where?

2001
02:15:03,360 --> 02:15:06,120
Where does the FLDS stand now?
What's your membership look

2002
02:15:06,120 --> 02:15:06,720
like?
What?

2003
02:15:06,720 --> 02:15:09,200
What are they?
What are they up to these days?

2004
02:15:10,560 --> 02:15:19,960
So when I left in May of 2023,
the membership, the, the amount

2005
02:15:19,960 --> 02:15:22,640
of people still supporting stood
at around 5000.

2006
02:15:23,680 --> 02:15:29,160
And yes, and then real faithful
members were about half that

2007
02:15:29,160 --> 02:15:32,640
number, the loyal and faithful.
And there's always a bleeding.

2008
02:15:33,080 --> 02:15:37,720
Every year more come out and
there's not really any children

2009
02:15:37,720 --> 02:15:40,480
being born.
So the group's not growing and

2010
02:15:40,480 --> 02:15:44,320
there's for sure no converts.
Nobody's going to join something

2011
02:15:44,320 --> 02:15:49,320
that's going on like that.
So the group's slowly breaking

2012
02:15:49,320 --> 02:15:54,440
down, but there's still a lot of
people there and there's A, and

2013
02:15:54,440 --> 02:15:59,400
they're probably the people that
are the most faithful and

2014
02:15:59,400 --> 02:16:01,720
grounded in the gospel.
I would say as far as their

2015
02:16:01,720 --> 02:16:06,200
beliefs, they, they're the ones
that have been the strongest in

2016
02:16:06,200 --> 02:16:09,760
not giving up, even if some of
what they believe is in error.

2017
02:16:10,600 --> 02:16:13,600
And that's why I, I feel a lot
of hope for a lot of people

2018
02:16:13,600 --> 02:16:17,240
there that would still come out
and continue to live the gospel

2019
02:16:17,280 --> 02:16:20,800
if they could just see through
the darkness, see the light

2020
02:16:20,800 --> 02:16:25,520
through the darkness.
And there's still a path forward

2021
02:16:25,520 --> 02:16:28,480
for them to fulfill what they
feel like is their mission of

2022
02:16:28,480 --> 02:16:32,120
being a group of people that are
living the gospel in preparation

2023
02:16:32,120 --> 02:16:37,080
for Christ's second coming.
Absolutely.

2024
02:16:38,360 --> 02:16:41,920
What let me ask you this AM and
do you do you ever get emails of

2025
02:16:41,920 --> 02:16:44,120
people from the group that are
wanting to leave?

2026
02:16:45,760 --> 02:16:50,040
Every once in a while I get
people asking questions, and

2027
02:16:50,400 --> 02:16:54,360
generally if someone in the
group wants to ask you a

2028
02:16:54,360 --> 02:16:58,240
question, they probably won't
tell you their name until they

2029
02:16:58,360 --> 02:17:01,480
really get grounded and want the
choice they're going to make.

2030
02:17:02,000 --> 02:17:06,120
Gotcha gotcha.
So just being available is the

2031
02:17:06,120 --> 02:17:08,559
best way to help.
Very very good thing to be

2032
02:17:08,559 --> 02:17:12,240
available and willing to listen
and not laugh at what they have

2033
02:17:12,240 --> 02:17:14,680
to say because some of it might
sound kind of funny at first.

2034
02:17:15,040 --> 02:17:17,799
Sure.
And that that's just the result

2035
02:17:17,799 --> 02:17:21,680
of the isolation and being
taught that everyone is out to

2036
02:17:21,680 --> 02:17:26,320
get you and the world's and, and
everybody besides them is trying

2037
02:17:26,320 --> 02:17:28,520
to destroy them.
You know that That's what all

2038
02:17:28,520 --> 02:17:31,480
those children have grown up
being told.

2039
02:17:33,040 --> 02:17:41,719
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Who So with, with all this said,

2040
02:17:42,760 --> 02:17:45,680
I, I want to ask you this
question in conclusion.

2041
02:17:47,360 --> 02:17:51,160
Well, before I do that, I do
want to dive into the doctrine a

2042
02:17:51,160 --> 02:17:52,959
little more.
Is there anything else that you

2043
02:17:52,959 --> 02:17:57,760
can think of that your your
father or grandfather or others

2044
02:17:58,080 --> 02:18:02,959
in the FLDS taught that that
would seem foreign or that had

2045
02:18:02,959 --> 02:18:05,639
issues attached with it?
We talked about the nature of

2046
02:18:05,639 --> 02:18:07,680
God.
We talked about plural marriage

2047
02:18:09,440 --> 02:18:12,360
and, and that sort of placement
marriage and that sort of thing.

2048
02:18:13,080 --> 02:18:16,600
Is there any other big doctrines
that they taught that you could

2049
02:18:16,600 --> 02:18:21,360
obviously see now or false?
I brought up that part in the

2050
02:18:21,360 --> 02:18:27,360
atonement where he claims he
atones and the basis of that

2051
02:18:27,360 --> 02:18:35,959
comes from the split in the in
the 1980s and my grandfather

2052
02:18:35,959 --> 02:18:41,719
started teaching that.
So on 3rd Nephi 21, Jesus is

2053
02:18:41,719 --> 02:18:44,879
talking to the Nephites and he
mentions something about the

2054
02:18:44,879 --> 02:18:50,400
marred servant.
And my grandfather started to

2055
02:18:50,400 --> 02:18:54,719
tell the people that Leroy
Johnson was the marred servant

2056
02:18:55,400 --> 02:18:58,440
that was spoken of in 38 by 21
by the Savior.

2057
02:19:00,440 --> 02:19:04,639
And you know, Leroy Johnson had
the shingles and suffered a lot

2058
02:19:04,639 --> 02:19:09,080
before he died and he they begin
to claim it was some sort of

2059
02:19:09,080 --> 02:19:11,920
atonement.
Well, my father took that

2060
02:19:12,400 --> 02:19:16,240
scripture in the Book of Mormon
and applied that to his father

2061
02:19:16,559 --> 02:19:20,240
and later to himself, that he's
the marred servant.

2062
02:19:20,959 --> 02:19:25,840
And that meant that he was
suffering an atonement in his

2063
02:19:25,840 --> 02:19:30,840
capacity like Jesus did.
So that's another thing that an

2064
02:19:31,639 --> 02:19:34,719
NFLD aspiration would quote to
you and say if you're starting

2065
02:19:34,719 --> 02:19:36,799
to question things, they'll say,
well, what about the marred

2066
02:19:36,799 --> 02:19:39,480
servant in 3521?
Who else could that be?

2067
02:19:41,040 --> 02:19:45,040
And I mean, it's just fine if
someone says that.

2068
02:19:45,040 --> 02:19:48,800
I don't know.
And there's a lot of people that

2069
02:19:48,800 --> 02:19:52,560
felt like that marked servant is
a reference to Christ.

2070
02:19:54,600 --> 02:19:59,240
And so that's another thing I
felt like was way off and gave

2071
02:19:59,240 --> 02:20:01,960
them their groundwork to claim
that these men were actually

2072
02:20:01,960 --> 02:20:10,000
atoning.
Right, OK, so if you could go

2073
02:20:10,000 --> 02:20:19,040
back in time and you could talk
to your your 14 year old self

2074
02:20:20,040 --> 02:20:24,480
who was go who, who just showed
up to Texas, what would you tell

2075
02:20:24,480 --> 02:20:27,720
him?
Why?

2076
02:20:29,520 --> 02:20:31,320
That's a hard one.
I know.

2077
02:20:31,720 --> 02:20:36,080
Because there's, there's so much
experience stacked in there, you

2078
02:20:36,080 --> 02:20:39,640
know, there's experiences I'm
grateful I had that helped me

2079
02:20:39,640 --> 02:20:41,800
learn and grow.
And then a lot of experience

2080
02:20:41,800 --> 02:20:47,040
that I probably been OK without.
But I would tell myself that

2081
02:20:47,840 --> 02:20:54,120
it's OK to ask questions.
It's OK to study the scriptures

2082
02:20:54,840 --> 02:21:01,080
and to understand why we live
the way we do and to find out if

2083
02:21:01,080 --> 02:21:02,920
what you're living is actually
the right thing.

2084
02:21:03,720 --> 02:21:09,280
It's OK to learn that as a young
person and have the courage to

2085
02:21:09,280 --> 02:21:13,920
stand up when you see things are
wrong and go choose the right

2086
02:21:13,920 --> 02:21:18,240
and make an effort to find what
is right so that you can go to

2087
02:21:18,240 --> 02:21:24,760
that source, whatever it is,
because I would never want to

2088
02:21:24,760 --> 02:21:27,760
tell myself you can just leave.
Right.

2089
02:21:28,360 --> 02:21:33,240
Because the implications of that
can be huge, especially if you

2090
02:21:33,240 --> 02:21:35,640
give up on the gospel in your
confusion.

2091
02:21:36,800 --> 02:21:40,480
I think you hit on something so
important right there, right?

2092
02:21:41,280 --> 02:21:44,600
Because for those of us who were
on the outside of that, who were

2093
02:21:44,600 --> 02:21:50,920
never in the FLDS church, we
don't understand just how

2094
02:21:50,920 --> 02:21:57,800
tightly the gospel was woven
into the whoever the current

2095
02:21:57,800 --> 02:22:02,960
leader was of the group, right?
And so this idea of, well, why

2096
02:22:02,960 --> 02:22:07,720
don't you just leave?
Well, you, you can't just leave

2097
02:22:07,720 --> 02:22:11,720
or else you're damned, right?
There's no other word.

2098
02:22:12,040 --> 02:22:14,200
There's no other word for it.
You are damned.

2099
02:22:14,480 --> 02:22:18,200
You will lose your family.
Everything that you hold dear

2100
02:22:18,200 --> 02:22:22,600
will be gone, right?
You almost lose your identity.

2101
02:22:22,960 --> 02:22:26,560
Yeah, you don't really.
And again, you can please

2102
02:22:26,560 --> 02:22:30,000
correct me here if if I say
anything wrong, but you really

2103
02:22:30,000 --> 02:22:33,280
don't have an identity.
Your identity is formed through

2104
02:22:33,280 --> 02:22:36,680
that one man, is it?
Does that make sense?

2105
02:22:37,960 --> 02:22:42,160
Correct.
And and so you, you don't really

2106
02:22:42,160 --> 02:22:45,720
have the identity of your own
right.

2107
02:22:48,000 --> 02:22:54,040
It is is absolutely dependent
upon that guy who's on top.

2108
02:22:55,120 --> 02:22:58,560
That helps frame your point of
reference about who you are.

2109
02:22:59,520 --> 02:23:02,440
Right.
In in the case of of the FLDS

2110
02:23:02,440 --> 02:23:05,880
church, right?
I, I want to be careful here.

2111
02:23:05,880 --> 02:23:09,040
I don't want to throw all one
man churches under the bus,

2112
02:23:09,040 --> 02:23:15,040
right, But it, it does, it does
lend itself to this sort of

2113
02:23:15,040 --> 02:23:20,760
thing happening, right?
And and we have to be super

2114
02:23:20,760 --> 02:23:24,240
cognizant of that.
We have to be able to, to

2115
02:23:24,240 --> 02:23:26,120
separate that.
And, and I think you hit the

2116
02:23:26,120 --> 02:23:31,200
nail on the head right, is again
with that whole leaving thing

2117
02:23:31,680 --> 02:23:34,800
for, for those of us who've been
on the outside and are used to

2118
02:23:34,800 --> 02:23:38,720
exercising our own agency, it
does seem like a reasonable

2119
02:23:38,720 --> 02:23:40,360
question.
Why don't, why don't you just

2120
02:23:40,360 --> 02:23:41,760
leave?
But it's not a reasonable

2121
02:23:41,760 --> 02:23:46,440
question to those on the inside
who've been victimized for for

2122
02:23:46,800 --> 02:23:50,240
years.
Right, it's it's real similar to

2123
02:23:50,240 --> 02:23:53,480
letting a caged animal outside.
Suddenly I don't even know what

2124
02:23:53,480 --> 02:23:55,040
to do.
Absolutely.

2125
02:23:55,800 --> 02:23:58,200
And, and I want to, I want to
add that in here.

2126
02:23:59,520 --> 02:24:03,040
The difference between Joseph
Smith and what he set up and

2127
02:24:03,040 --> 02:24:07,640
what you find in the FLDS is
Joseph Smith was accountable.

2128
02:24:07,920 --> 02:24:13,240
He could be held accountable if
he went astray by the council of

2129
02:24:13,240 --> 02:24:17,200
priests with the presiding
Bishop in the FLES.

2130
02:24:17,280 --> 02:24:20,200
You cannot hold your leader
accountable if he goes astray.

2131
02:24:20,200 --> 02:24:24,840
There's no way to do it.
And any council he set up, we're

2132
02:24:24,840 --> 02:24:27,440
just there to raise their hand
and say yes to whatever he said

2133
02:24:27,440 --> 02:24:31,120
or else they got sent away.
So there's zero accountability

2134
02:24:31,120 --> 02:24:34,080
for him.
What Joseph Smith set up there

2135
02:24:34,080 --> 02:24:37,400
is accountability and that
that's a massive difference

2136
02:24:37,400 --> 02:24:39,960
there.
Gotcha, gotcha.

2137
02:24:40,840 --> 02:24:44,640
Yeah, No, that's a very
interesting observation because

2138
02:24:45,080 --> 02:24:50,240
look, we know, and I want to say
this, it was unjust, but we do

2139
02:24:50,240 --> 02:24:54,840
know that Joseph did submit to
church inquiries, right?

2140
02:24:54,840 --> 02:24:58,880
He did, he did go before certain
men to to make an account of

2141
02:24:58,880 --> 02:25:01,800
stuff.
And, and I do find that

2142
02:25:01,800 --> 02:25:05,960
interesting that that Joseph
never put himself above the law,

2143
02:25:06,200 --> 02:25:10,960
so to speak, but yet other men
who came saying they were his

2144
02:25:10,960 --> 02:25:16,440
successor did take that that
stance, right?

2145
02:25:16,440 --> 02:25:17,960
That's.
Joseph was willing.

2146
02:25:18,520 --> 02:25:24,480
Joseph was willing to raise men
up to his knowledge and to his

2147
02:25:24,480 --> 02:25:28,120
stature.
He brought men that were strong

2148
02:25:28,120 --> 02:25:31,440
and made them apostles, gave
them positions in the Church.

2149
02:25:31,440 --> 02:25:34,760
He didn't feel threatened by
them and and you see the

2150
02:25:34,760 --> 02:25:37,200
opposite.
When a man takes power

2151
02:25:37,200 --> 02:25:40,360
legitimately, he feels
threatened constantly.

2152
02:25:40,400 --> 02:25:44,440
Therefore he constantly get rid
gets rid of any man he considers

2153
02:25:44,440 --> 02:25:50,800
a threat.
Yeah, that's a deep observation.

2154
02:25:50,800 --> 02:25:54,520
That's good, Ammon.
You know, and I think, I think

2155
02:25:54,760 --> 02:26:00,520
what you said there too is, is
so vitally important is that you

2156
02:26:00,520 --> 02:26:05,520
don't have to start at almost
zero or at 0, but you got to get

2157
02:26:05,520 --> 02:26:07,480
close, right?
You got to be willing.

2158
02:26:07,880 --> 02:26:10,120
And, and that's one of the
things that's jumping out at me

2159
02:26:10,120 --> 02:26:13,000
here as we've had our
conversation, is that in your

2160
02:26:13,000 --> 02:26:15,760
case, you were willing to be
like, OK, I, I've received a

2161
02:26:15,760 --> 02:26:20,640
testimony about Jesus Christ and
Joseph Smith's prophetic role.

2162
02:26:21,720 --> 02:26:26,240
Let's anchor to that and then
let's rebuild, right?

2163
02:26:26,840 --> 02:26:29,480
And I that's.
Exactly the.

2164
02:26:30,400 --> 02:26:34,360
I, I find it very interesting
that that as we've talked about

2165
02:26:34,360 --> 02:26:38,000
it, right?
And, and you know, if, if you

2166
02:26:38,000 --> 02:26:41,760
don't build on that foundation,
you're, you're going to be weak,

2167
02:26:41,920 --> 02:26:43,160
right?
There's no way around it.

2168
02:26:43,160 --> 02:26:45,080
The foundation is there to give
it strength.

2169
02:26:45,600 --> 02:26:49,680
And so being able to, to have
that foundation is super, super

2170
02:26:49,680 --> 02:26:52,840
important.
And also the other thing that

2171
02:26:52,840 --> 02:26:58,360
you said that I really like is
to question, right?

2172
02:26:58,720 --> 02:27:03,880
So often I think in religion
that that we view questions as a

2173
02:27:03,880 --> 02:27:07,960
sign of weakness.
And what I've come to understand

2174
02:27:07,960 --> 02:27:14,120
a lot of times is that questions
are often a barometer of, of

2175
02:27:14,120 --> 02:27:17,080
where you're at in your faith,
right?

2176
02:27:17,520 --> 02:27:22,520
It's often an indication of how
mature you are based on the

2177
02:27:22,520 --> 02:27:27,200
questions you asked, right?
And let's, let's not forget that

2178
02:27:27,480 --> 02:27:30,720
Mormonism starts with a
question, right?

2179
02:27:31,120 --> 02:27:35,760
Mormonism starts with Joseph
Smith going to the Grove after

2180
02:27:35,760 --> 02:27:39,720
having read the Bible and going
what church do I join, right?

2181
02:27:39,720 --> 02:27:43,000
That's how this whole thing
starts is with a question.

2182
02:27:43,520 --> 02:27:49,360
And if anybody tells you, well,
don't question, just trust me,

2183
02:27:49,840 --> 02:27:52,480
that's when you should question
the most.

2184
02:27:53,240 --> 02:27:56,200
The most is when you should
question.

2185
02:27:56,600 --> 02:28:00,040
Because if someone's telling
you, just take your word for it.

2186
02:28:01,080 --> 02:28:06,080
That's that's concerning, right?
In the in matters of your faith,

2187
02:28:06,440 --> 02:28:10,440
in matters of your eternal
consequence, you take that to

2188
02:28:10,440 --> 02:28:13,440
God, right?
And I'm not saying that you

2189
02:28:13,440 --> 02:28:17,560
can't have trusted confidants
around you and friends to help

2190
02:28:17,560 --> 02:28:22,400
you keep keep you on the path.
But if someone says no, no, no,

2191
02:28:22,400 --> 02:28:24,080
don't worry about what the book
says.

2192
02:28:24,440 --> 02:28:26,400
Just listen to me and I'm going
to get you there.

2193
02:28:27,440 --> 02:28:30,560
That's when you should even ask
questions even more.

2194
02:28:31,200 --> 02:28:34,720
And I do feel like in Mormonism,
we have been blessed with enough

2195
02:28:34,720 --> 02:28:38,160
information as you've attested
to here, Ammon, right?

2196
02:28:38,280 --> 02:28:40,600
We have the Journal of
Discourses, right?

2197
02:28:41,200 --> 02:28:44,120
And there's a lot of great
things in there, right?

2198
02:28:44,400 --> 02:28:48,680
I would also say some of it, you
know, is, is just dudes talking,

2199
02:28:48,760 --> 02:28:51,280
right, which is cool to look at
it.

2200
02:28:51,400 --> 02:28:55,880
But there is a lot of doctrine
in there that that we can look

2201
02:28:55,880 --> 02:29:00,040
at and glean a lot of
information from that can help

2202
02:29:00,120 --> 02:29:02,960
reinforce good doctrine and good
ideas.

2203
02:29:04,280 --> 02:29:07,200
And so they're, they're
absolutely out there.

2204
02:29:08,240 --> 02:29:11,560
One final question, what would
you say to anyone who's going to

2205
02:29:11,560 --> 02:29:14,320
hear this that might still be in
the FLDS church?

2206
02:29:16,760 --> 02:29:20,040
I would say there's a lot of
hope for you to continue to live

2207
02:29:20,040 --> 02:29:24,920
the gospel, even if you choose
to step outside of that group,

2208
02:29:25,560 --> 02:29:29,440
see the light, see what's
happened in the FLDS for what it

2209
02:29:29,440 --> 02:29:32,880
is and you still want the
gospel.

2210
02:29:32,880 --> 02:29:36,600
There's a lot of people willing
to help you come to understand

2211
02:29:37,360 --> 02:29:43,200
it's 100% OK to ask questions
and to reground yourself in the

2212
02:29:43,200 --> 02:29:48,000
gospel and come to a knowledge
of the truth for yourself.

2213
02:29:48,520 --> 02:29:53,760
I mean, go back to Joseph Smith.
Why did he go to the Grove?

2214
02:29:53,760 --> 02:29:55,920
To pray?
He read.

2215
02:29:55,920 --> 02:29:59,680
If any man lacketh wisdom, let
him ask of God, who won't

2216
02:29:59,680 --> 02:30:01,920
upgrade him but will give to him
liberally.

2217
02:30:02,000 --> 02:30:07,360
And that's the kind of God we
worship, not one who demands you

2218
02:30:07,360 --> 02:30:10,400
don't ask questions of anyone in
authority or who you think is in

2219
02:30:10,400 --> 02:30:14,520
authority.
And then he won't consider you a

2220
02:30:14,520 --> 02:30:18,280
wicked person for what you may
think are small infractions.

2221
02:30:18,960 --> 02:30:26,760
And I, I can't emphasize enough
in the group the fear that God

2222
02:30:26,760 --> 02:30:31,560
is angry over very small matters
when he is not.

2223
02:30:31,560 --> 02:30:35,680
He's a kind and loving God that
is right there just waiting for

2224
02:30:35,680 --> 02:30:39,680
us to reach out.
A lot of people wonder why he

2225
02:30:39,680 --> 02:30:42,880
hasn't answered the prayers for
their prophet to be delivered.

2226
02:30:43,480 --> 02:30:46,920
And I would say he answered
those prayers the day he allowed

2227
02:30:46,920 --> 02:30:51,840
him to be arrested.
Because if you understood the

2228
02:30:52,160 --> 02:30:56,360
depth of darkness, he was
promising to come teach, which

2229
02:30:56,360 --> 02:31:01,360
we did not understand at the
time, but he had said, stated a

2230
02:31:01,360 --> 02:31:06,160
few weeks before he was caught,
he would come to the temple and

2231
02:31:06,160 --> 02:31:11,120
start to teach us new things and
bring us into God's presence.

2232
02:31:11,120 --> 02:31:14,640
Well, if we realized the
darkness of what he was going to

2233
02:31:14,640 --> 02:31:18,160
start teaching, we'd look upon
that time as the answer to those

2234
02:31:18,160 --> 02:31:21,840
prayers.
And God did deliver us, and He's

2235
02:31:21,840 --> 02:31:26,800
just waiting for us to come back
to Him and let Him tell us where

2236
02:31:26,800 --> 02:31:29,800
to go.
Wow.

2237
02:31:32,400 --> 02:31:35,240
I'm going to say this and then
I'll let you have the last word

2238
02:31:35,240 --> 02:31:40,800
here, Ammon.
But for anybody out there who's

2239
02:31:40,800 --> 02:31:44,960
caught in anything like this,
whether it be in the FLDS church

2240
02:31:45,640 --> 02:31:51,240
or another church that is is
doing this, reach out.

2241
02:31:51,560 --> 02:31:58,480
There are people here that want
to help who are uniquely

2242
02:31:58,480 --> 02:32:01,880
positioned to help you.
Reach out to me.

2243
02:32:01,880 --> 02:32:05,720
I'll put you in contact with
someone close to you that can

2244
02:32:05,720 --> 02:32:09,400
help.
You want to talk to Ammon?

2245
02:32:09,400 --> 02:32:10,960
I'm sure he's willing to talk to
you.

2246
02:32:10,960 --> 02:32:13,600
Whoever.
Just reach out so we can help

2247
02:32:14,200 --> 02:32:17,080
there.
You don't have to abandon all

2248
02:32:17,080 --> 02:32:20,720
your beliefs like Ammon was
saying.

2249
02:32:21,040 --> 02:32:26,360
Probably 95% of the stuff that
that we believe is similar,

2250
02:32:26,440 --> 02:32:29,840
right?
And while that 5% seems small,

2251
02:32:29,840 --> 02:32:33,280
it's exaggerated because the
consequences in the stakes are

2252
02:32:33,280 --> 02:32:36,480
so high.
But my point is, you don't have

2253
02:32:36,480 --> 02:32:40,200
to give up Mormonism.
You shouldn't give up Mormonism

2254
02:32:40,760 --> 02:32:43,640
there.
Look, Mormonism, when practiced

2255
02:32:43,640 --> 02:32:47,200
correctly and taught correctly,
is the most freeing of

2256
02:32:47,200 --> 02:32:50,880
theologies that I have come
across, bar none.

2257
02:32:51,640 --> 02:32:55,440
It is the ability to approach
God and know God will answer

2258
02:32:55,440 --> 02:33:00,760
you.
Reach out and we will make it

2259
02:33:00,760 --> 02:33:03,840
happen however it needs to.
We can get you out of it.

2260
02:33:03,840 --> 02:33:06,800
We can help you, and all you got
to do is reach out.

2261
02:33:08,160 --> 02:33:10,920
I'm here.
There's others that I know that

2262
02:33:10,920 --> 02:33:14,320
are willing to assist in helping
you come out of that darkness

2263
02:33:14,320 --> 02:33:16,040
because you don't have to stand
there.

2264
02:33:16,520 --> 02:33:19,840
You don't have to sit in it.
And, and that would be the last

2265
02:33:19,840 --> 02:33:23,840
thing I'd want to end with is
there's hope outside of this and

2266
02:33:24,240 --> 02:33:28,840
all things can be made right.
All things through the atonement

2267
02:33:28,840 --> 02:33:33,920
of Christ can be made correct.
Even your most dire sufferings

2268
02:33:34,440 --> 02:33:37,720
can be relieved by him.
And I just want to leave that

2269
02:33:37,720 --> 02:33:39,560
with everyone.
In the name of Jesus Christ,

2270
02:33:39,600 --> 02:33:41,520
Amen.
Amen.

2271
02:33:41,960 --> 02:33:43,840
It's yours to finish up tonight,
but Amen.

2272
02:33:44,120 --> 02:33:46,720
Thank you.
I think you nailed it on the

2273
02:33:46,720 --> 02:33:51,120
head and and I'd add one thing.
When someone comes out, they

2274
02:33:51,120 --> 02:33:56,000
generally have a lot to unload
and it takes a patient listening

2275
02:33:56,000 --> 02:34:01,840
person to hear him out.
But I think you nailed it Dave

2276
02:34:02,080 --> 02:34:05,120
and I just thank for letting me
be on here with you.

2277
02:34:05,400 --> 02:34:08,840
Really enjoy this podcast.
Oh well, Couldn't recommend it

2278
02:34:08,840 --> 02:34:13,120
more to anyone that wants to
understand our history and our

2279
02:34:13,120 --> 02:34:15,840
roots.
Lot of good source material

2280
02:34:15,840 --> 02:34:19,480
here.
Well, I I sure appreciate you

2281
02:34:19,480 --> 02:34:25,640
for being so brave to come on.
I think you're a good man,

2282
02:34:25,640 --> 02:34:27,080
Ammon.
I know you're a good man.

2283
02:34:27,640 --> 02:34:31,320
I felt it here.
And we should do one of these

2284
02:34:31,320 --> 02:34:34,360
again when you have a topic in
mind, just give me a call.

2285
02:34:35,120 --> 02:34:37,680
We should get back on you should
come out and check out Missouri.

2286
02:34:38,160 --> 02:34:39,400
We'll.
We'll throw some steak.

2287
02:34:39,440 --> 02:34:42,160
I need to.
We'll throw some steaks on the

2288
02:34:42,160 --> 02:34:43,240
grill.
We'll hang out.

2289
02:34:43,240 --> 02:34:45,120
We'll have a good time.
You should, you should come out

2290
02:34:45,120 --> 02:34:47,480
and, and and and hang out for a
little while.

2291
02:34:48,040 --> 02:34:50,760
So I think I think we could have
a good time.

2292
02:34:51,520 --> 02:34:53,800
Hey, well, if I come that way,
I'll, I'll let you know.

2293
02:34:53,800 --> 02:34:56,200
I'll hit you up.
Yeah, you got my number, man.

2294
02:34:56,200 --> 02:34:59,800
Anytime you need give me a call.
OK, awesome.

2295
02:34:59,800 --> 02:35:02,200
Thanks a ton.
Amin, you're awesome.

2296
02:35:02,280 --> 02:35:05,240
I think you got a lot of good
work left ahead of you, brother.

2297
02:35:05,240 --> 02:35:07,320
I'm I'm excited to see where you
go.

2298
02:35:07,320 --> 02:35:10,440
I really AM.
Thank you again so much for

2299
02:35:10,440 --> 02:35:13,840
coming on this.
It's, it's, it's one of those

2300
02:35:13,840 --> 02:35:16,240
things that's tough to look at.
It's got to be even more.

2301
02:35:16,520 --> 02:35:19,560
It's got to be even tougher to
talk about from your, your side.

2302
02:35:19,560 --> 02:35:24,640
So I appreciate your, your, your
grace and your, your, your

2303
02:35:24,640 --> 02:35:27,400
strength and your courage.
So because there was a lot of it

2304
02:35:27,400 --> 02:35:28,480
on display tonight.
Yeah.

2305
02:35:30,560 --> 02:35:34,440
Well, thank you, Dave.
All right, man, good stuff.

2306
02:35:34,440 --> 02:35:36,520
Let's do it again soon.
OK.

2307
02:35:36,520 --> 02:35:39,080
All right.
Bye everybody.