Episode #169: Standing With The LDS Church On Correct Principles W/Ben Winfield (NOT FOR ANYONE UNDER 16)

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The you're listening to the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

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You know, there were some things
when I first started this

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podcast that I was fairly
certain I wasn't ever going to

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have to do, right?
Like, what's that?

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I thought I would never have to,
you know, Well, there's a lot,

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but one of the things I thought
I'd never have to do is like,

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literally like kind of stand
with the LDS church on some

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stuff.
But that's where being

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principled comes in, right?
It's easy to to kind of draw

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lines in the sand and say, OK,
you're with me, you're against

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me, that sort of a thing.
But that's not always a great

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indicator of of where you really
stand.

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And and that's just more or less
playing politics with people and

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organizations, right?
And I think I think it's

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fundamentalist.
We make the claim that we we try

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to stand on principle, right?
We try to stand on truth, the

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history principle.
And so sometimes you got to do

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things that you never thought
you'd have to do.

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And this is going to be a little
bit of a unique episode.

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So the church, the LDS church
has come under some fire as of

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late from a certain O antagonist
towards the church.

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You'll see him, don't worry,
you'll see him.

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And we're going to go over that
a little bit today.

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And there's two episodes we're
going to look at that have just

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recently came out in the last
few weeks, I guess.

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And they deal with principles
that that quite frankly, I feel

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like as Mormons, we should all
be able to rally around, right.

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And so with that, we'll just
kind of jump back in.

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Ben, it's dude, it's been a
while.

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Yeah, it has been.
Looks like you've lost some more

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weight.
Yeah, doing well, Doing well

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with that.
Family's doing good.

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Yeah, yeah, got got another baby
on the way.

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Nice, so soon it's going to be a
boy.

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Are you going, are you going
like last time you disappointed

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me 'cause you didn't do the full
like fundamentalist birthing

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thing?
I mean, do you have a hand cart

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for your dear sweet wife to give
birth in now?

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Well, yeah, I mean, and it's,
you know, really terrible

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weather.
It's winter.

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I do plan on making her walk
through the ice and when to.

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Oh, good, good.
Not intended.

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Yes, yes, fantastic.
All right, good.

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I just wanted to make sure we
were, we were keeping up on

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things there, Ben.
I didn't want you slacking it

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all.
She's in the other room.

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She definitely didn't hear that.
Sweetheart, we listen to this.

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These are all jokes.
I love you so much.

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Yes, it's a secret between you,
me, Mason and the 15,000 other

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people that are going to hear
and see this.

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So I'm sure it will never get
back to her because none of the

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things I ever say make it back
to Amber and Tanya.

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No, but just you know when you
do listen to this sweetheart,

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your comfort is my highest
priority and I love you.

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Well played, Sir, well played.
So did you have to, like, lie to

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your wife when you came on and
like, hey, I actually got to,

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like, go in here and like, do
our bills?

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I mean, 'cause, you know, we
haven't talked in a while.

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So I assume there's like a
gentle feeling of relief when

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you haven't been talking to me
now.

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Yeah, no, no, no, she, she's,
she's pretty chill.

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OK, good, good.
Just happy about it.

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I actually forgot to tell her
till this morning and then I was

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like oh shoot.
Well, you know the the girls

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both fell asleep.
You know, we got 2 little girls

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and they're they're like they
went to bed on time.

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It was amazing so.
You know, if there's one thing

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I.
Found are perfect.

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That's perfect.
If there's one thing I found

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that women really like, it's
when you just spring things on

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them because they always like to
have spontaneity, right?

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And there's nothing better than
just coming home and being like,

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I got to go sequester myself in
the office for a good half hour

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or hours, right?
I mean, yeah, they love that.

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They say that they like
spontaneity, but really I think

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that they just like presence,
you know, because they're never

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really excited when you're like,
hey, by the way, I'm going to go

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to a podcast tonight, so.
Like you.

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Know you're going to handle
bedtime on on your own,

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probably.
Right, right.

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Well, I was going to say, I
suppose it depends on kind of

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the the husband, you are right.
Like Amber and Tanya are like,

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oh, so you're going to be out of
our hair for, I mean, gone for

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three hours and then they go to
Joanne's and then that kind of

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hurts, but whatever.
OK, all right, we're moving on.

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All right, so as we dive in
here, the first place that we're

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going to kind of look at is the
principle of plural marriage.

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So the church has just came out
with some stuff that I felt like

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like there was a few things I
disagreed with in there, but by

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and large, it was pretty good.
And I just want to go over the

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whole thing because it's really
short.

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And then we'll dive into the
critiques that that were made

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online.
So let me share my screen here

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with you real quick, Ben.
All right.

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And everybody else at home.
OK, so, oh, there we go.

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There we go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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OK.
You got that right?

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Yep.
OK, perfect.

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So this is what the church put
out and it's four kids.

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My, my guess is probably
somewhere in the, in the 12 year

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old range, if I had to guess,
right.

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But it, it does go over plural
marriage.

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And to be fair, I, I believe
this is the first time that the

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church actually takes steps to
kind of explain plural marriage

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to their, to their youth in, in
any sort of official capacity.

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And so I just want to read
through this.

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So here we got Joseph and I
believe that's Martin Harris.

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I could be wrong.
Who are are sitting there and

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they're they're going over the
Bible and it says while the

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Prophet Joseph Smith was
studying the Bible, he read

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about prophets like Abraham,
Moses, who had been married to

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more than one wife.
Joseph wondered how the Lord

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felt about it.
So he decided to ask the Lord.

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The Lord said that usually a man
should have one wife, but

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sometimes the Lord commanded his
people to be in marriages of one

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man and more than one woman.
This was called plural marriage.

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The Lord told Joseph that his
people should only be in plural

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marriage if he commands it.
Well, as as fundamentalists, we

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believe the Lord has commanded
it.

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Now the LDS Church, they don't.
That's their deal, whatever

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that's on them.
But for guys like Ben and I, we

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believe that this is still in
force.

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I know the illusions they're
making there to Jacob too as

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well.
But really the the kind of main

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thrust there is if the Lord
commands it.

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And 1:32 definitely says it's
back on the table.

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So Ben, if I get anything wrong
or something, you want to dive

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in deeper, you just jump in.
Yeah, no, I mean, that's the the

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key to it.
I mean, just kind of like, I

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think what's significant about
all of the, the fact that the

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church is doing this at all is
for anyone like maybe just a

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little bit younger than our age
and older, we, this wasn't

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really discussed except for in
passing.

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If you grew up in the LDS
church, like they used to have

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the like priesthood and relief
society manuals and it was

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teachings of the presidents of
the church.

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And every year was a new church
president and it went through

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selections from their sermons
about various topics.

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And each week you would study
one and there would be kind of a

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biographical information thing
on there.

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And until later, what they
usually did is for all of the

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polygamist presidents of the
church, they listed the the

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prophet's first wife.
Let's say, you know, Wilfred

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Woodruff was married to so and
so I think Phoebe was his first

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wife.
And it was.

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And then there'd be like a
notation at the bottom where I

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would say like, oh, by the way,
he did, you know, live plural

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marriage at the time.
But, you know, we, we don't do

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that anymore.
There'd be like this little

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footnote and then that was it.
And so there really wasn't this

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like discussion of plural
marriage.

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Sometimes you'd see, like for
the Joseph Smith one, there was

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a notation that said we're just
not including any teachings on

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plural marriage or the law of
consecration because we don't do

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that, You know?
So there was this thing where

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they could kind of say
technically we're not like

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covering up the history.
We're acknowledging it, but we

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don't want to talk about it.
And we're going to move right

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past.
And hopefully no one even read

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this section because it's the
boring stuff that only the nerds

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read the beginning.
Right, right, right.

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Yeah, You know, look, I'll be
honest, I applaud the church in

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this, right, Because I feel like
they're being more open about it

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than they have been in the past,
right.

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And they're they're they're
introducing it to a younger, a

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younger demographic.
Like I said, 12 is kind of where

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I thought this was appropriate.
I don't know where all it's

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being used at in the church, but
I feel like it's pretty

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appropriate, right?
Yeah.

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So let let me finish read this
here and then we'll kind of get

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the overall how, how, how we're
all feeling about it.

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So moving on, it says a few
years later, the Lord told

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Joseph to marry other women.
Joseph didn't want to marry

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otherwise, but he knew it was a
commandment from the Lord.

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When Joseph asked a woman to
marry him, he told, he told her

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to pray about it and he wanted
her to know from the Lord if it

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was right.
This commandment was also hard

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for Joseph's first wife, Emma.
Sometimes Emma helped Joseph

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decide who he shouldn't ask to
marry him.

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Other times, Emma did not want
to Joseph to marry other women.

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Joseph taught the quorum of the
12 apostles about plural

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marriage.
It was a hard commandment for

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them, too.
Brigham Young and his wife, Mary

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Ann, prayed a lot to the Lord
about what to do.

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They learned that they should
obey the commandment of plural

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marriage.
For many years, some of the

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Saints were asked to be in a
plural marriage.

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In plural marriages, people
outside the Church did not like

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plural marriage.
They made laws against it.

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Some Saints, including church
leaders, were put in prison.

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But the Lord blessed the
families who obeyed His

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commandments even when it was
hard.

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In 1890, the Lord told Wilfred
Woodruff, the president of the

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Church, that men should not
marry more than one wife

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anymore.
The leaders of the Church shared

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this commandment with the
Saints.

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This is still the Lord's
commandment today.

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A man should be, excuse me, a
man should be married to only

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one wife.
That's it.

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So let me kill this real quick.
And I mean, that's that last.

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Part that I take issue with.
Right, right, right.

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Yeah, Yeah.
We are going to have different,

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different, different complaints
with this.

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But overall, I felt like if you
were introducing a group of kids

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to plural marriage in the from
an LDS perspective.

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Yeah.
That's pretty good, right?

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I mean, that's that's out there.
It's very honest.

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It addresses the fact that
people struggled with it, that

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Emma struggled with it, that
sometimes Joseph went ahead with

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plural marriages without her
support.

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That's a touchy subject, a
sensitive subject for a lot of

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people.
And so nothing about that was

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dishonest.
It was told in a very, I mean,

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it was told in a simple way.
So that, yeah, probably I, I'd

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even say, you know, 8 to 10 year
old like is going to follow that

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easily.
And yeah, you know, so pretty,

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pretty honest, straightforward.
OK.

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All right.
Mason, are you still on, Bud?

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Wait.
No, I'm still here.

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I'm still.
There you are any any issues you

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have with that from from like an
LDS perspective, right.

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As fundamentalists, we're
obviously going to take

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exception with a few things, but
to explain it to a group of, you

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00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,600
know, like Ben was saying
somewhere between 8 and 12 year

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00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,960
olds.
Do you see anything in there

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00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,520
that is problematic?
No, I mean, I in my opinion, I

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00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,520
think the presentation is pretty
fair.

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00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,200
It doesn't get too too deep into
the history, obviously, but like

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00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,600
Benjamin was saying, it
addresses the concerns that

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00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,400
people had.
It addresses the rift that it

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00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,040
caused between Joseph and Emma.
It's not seeking to withhold any

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00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,280
information.
It's being forthright and

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00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,240
honest, which is, ironically,
what a lot of people on the

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00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,760
other side of the fence have
been asking the church to do for

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00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,240
a very long time.
Oh, you just wait.

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00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,720
We're about to find out how much
they like this, OK?

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00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,280
So all the, all the critics of
the church must really like

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00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,120
this.
They love it.

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00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,560
They love it, yes.
They are right now like.

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00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,240
Finally.
Except for most.

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00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,120
All of them.
I mean, but minus those.

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00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,360
Few, yeah.
Bunch every, everyone's happy.

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00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,600
All right, let me share my
screen screen again here and

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00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,400
we'll do this again.
Is it?

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00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,320
Grooming.
Yes, yes.

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00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,600
We'll, we'll hold off on that
question until we get there, OK?

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00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,360
We're we're gonna Yes, yes, it
was beautiful.

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00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,120
It was beautiful.
OK, here we go.

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00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,800
Hello everyone and welcome to
another stream of Mormon Stories

250
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,280
podcast.
I'm your host, John Delin.

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00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,920
It's December 16th, 2024.
The Mormon church has decided to

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00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,600
teach polygamy to its children
and to its adults.

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00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,640
It's a crazy time and that's
what we're covering today.

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00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,080
So to kind of give you a tiny
bit more explanation, in the

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00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,840
recent online, I don't know,
scriptures slash curriculum,

256
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:46,120
there is a new sort of like
cartoon styled telling brief

257
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,920
telling of Joseph Smith's
polygamy.

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00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,480
There's a little photo of it for
those joining us visually that

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00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,400
tries to kind of communicate to
kids the awesomeness and the

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00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:04,200
necessity and the virtues of
polygamy, which I'm just going

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00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,960
to say at the outset, I don't
sit around looking for things to

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00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,440
complain about.
I'm not a grievance seeker.

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00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:12,000
I'm.
Sorry.

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00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:12,800
Hang on.
OK.

265
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:13,800
All right.
Yeah.

266
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,880
No, I was going to stop right
there, too.

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00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,480
I would.
Go the that's did did anyone get

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00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,560
that?
The did anyone read that?

269
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,320
And they're like, yes, this is
like awesome.

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00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,600
This sounds so awesome.
Like I, I, you know, like I

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00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:34,200
think even a kid reading that is
like, doesn't sound like a fun

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00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,520
time.
OK, yes, yes, I, I want to go

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00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,200
over something he just said
there where he said, you know,

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00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,880
people must think I'd just sit
around in my basement and look

275
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,400
for things to be upset about.
You know, like I, I'm not a

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00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,280
grievance seeker, bro.
Your whole brand is grievance

277
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,600
seeking on Mormonism.
Period.

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00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,880
Look, Dave and his defense, you
know a fish doesn't know when

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00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,560
it's wet.
OK, All right.

280
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:09,280
This is just, he's so immersed
in all of this that, you know,

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00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,599
it doesn't feel like he's
looking for it, you know, 'cause

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00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,560
that's just like his entire
existence, you know?

283
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,920
Like I have yet to see an
episode of Mormon Stories where

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00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,119
he's like, oh, well, good for
you for staying in the church.

285
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,359
Yeah, good.
Congratulations on that, bro.

286
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,120
Your whole brand, the whole
thing is about grievance

287
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:32,200
seeking.
That's it.

288
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:34,160
That's what you do.
Just own it.

289
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:38,360
Holy cow.
Yeah, I, I make a living during

290
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:44,160
this, but I, I, I promise, I, I,
I, I basically do it on

291
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,240
accident, you know?
All right, all right.

292
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,360
So that was the first one I
wanted to cover, right?

293
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,480
Not let, let's get that out of
the way.

294
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,560
Not a grievance seeker.
Well, and also like, but the the

295
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,920
main point that he was making is
that like the church is like

296
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,120
just really trying to make
believe me sound cool and hip

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00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,800
and it's like, I don't even
like, I mean, if they are,

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00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,520
they're like, that wasn't a
great way to do it, you know, I

299
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,880
don't think.
Yep, Yep, absolutely.

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00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,640
All right, let's jump to here.
Yeah, I know they were coming

301
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,120
clean of their own volition, but
we all know that it's the

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00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:24,880
Internet that's forced the
church to become honest.

303
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,560
And with all the people
hemorrhaging as they are leaving

304
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:28,920
the church, that's probably
true.

305
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,120
They realize they have to
inoculate their youth and their

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00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:37,200
children or those same people
will feel betrayed when they

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00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,520
become of age to stumble on
Mormon stories of the CES

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00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,880
Letter.
So you stop.

309
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,120
It right there.
But if you just kind of.

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00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:50,880
OK.
So like that is the reason that

311
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:56,320
he's upset is because that that
I think he's correcting his

312
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,120
assessment.
That's exactly what the church

313
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:03,720
is doing is that they are
inoculating, which like they

314
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:04,320
should.
I was.

315
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,640
Going to say is that bad?
Though no, it's not a bad thing.

316
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,160
It's bad for for them.
It's bad for his brand because

317
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:20,040
like, look, no fundamentalist
like ever like leaves Mormonism

318
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,960
because they were shocked to
learn about polygamy, right?

319
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,840
Like that doesn't happen.
I might leave for other reasons,

320
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,960
but it's not because of that.
It's not because they felt like

321
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,320
they were kept in the dark
because, you know, you kind of

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00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:42,160
can't not see it with us.
And so that's The thing is that

323
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,920
in the church that you did, you
had people like you have like

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00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,000
general authorities whose kids
are being like, you know, Joseph

325
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,360
Smith was a polygamist, you
know, and and they're like, oh,

326
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,640
shoot, this became a problem.
We were scared of people

327
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,080
becoming fundamentalist.
And we don't like being

328
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,880
criticized.
So we're just gonna like, stuff

329
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,560
the polygamy away.
And then it, and then it's like,

330
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,160
now everyone is shocked and
feels betrayed when they learn

331
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,680
about it.
And so then they're like, oh,

332
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,120
shoot, OK, well, we do need to
teach it, you know, And that's

333
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:21,160
like, that's where it is.
And The thing is, the reason

334
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,120
that the that right there, the
reason that he's upset with this

335
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:26,760
and the reason the anti Mormons
in general are upset about this

336
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:32,280
is because like their biggest
selling point on attacking the

337
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,200
church is the narrative that you
were lied to, you were betrayed.

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00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,200
This was kept from you.
And if you were taught about it

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00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,600
like right as soon as you were
intellectually capable of like

340
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,760
understanding it, then guess
what?

341
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:52,800
It wasn't being hidden from you
and you can have whatever

342
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:58,200
feelings you want about it, but
you can't that that feeling that

343
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,800
like I would, this was hidden
for me just is not going to

344
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,760
exist for future generations of
the church.

345
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:12,080
And that's the big like sting
behind a lot of the the anti

346
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,000
marine that kind of takes the
wind out of their sails.

347
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,760
So, so you think that that what
he's really upset about is that

348
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,240
it's going to hurt the brand?
Yeah, yeah, it hurts their

349
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,880
brand.
The non grievances grievance

350
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,680
seeking brand.
Right.

351
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,800
Because like, yeah, maybe people
are still going to be upset

352
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,960
about thorough marriage, but
what younger generations aren't

353
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,800
going to be saying that like
millennials and older were

354
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,600
saying is Oh my gosh, I had no
idea.

355
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,440
Like that just isn't going to
exist anymore.

356
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:52,120
And that was like kind of the
big thing that made anyone pay

357
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:55,720
attention to John Dylan is like,
he was the guy who was coming

358
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,920
with the goods to tell you all
the things that they weren't

359
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,800
telling you about.
Right now.

360
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,480
I can't do that 'cause they they
were.

361
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:03,800
Now they're being honest about
it.

362
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,440
And yeah, like, it probably is
because of the Internet, but

363
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,360
it's that's the thing that he's
upset about.

364
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,560
They lose the shock value.
Right, right.

365
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:20,960
Look, if, if, if the church is
honestly concerned with its

366
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,800
members, which I think it is, I
think they see the, the errors

367
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,360
that were perpetuated in the
past with kind of deep 6 in the

368
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:31,320
information, right?
And so they're like, OK, well,

369
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,240
let's keep them in the boat,
right?

370
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,760
And, and look, I think we would
both agree, right?

371
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,240
As fundamental as Ben, we would
much rather see somebody in in

372
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,000
the church then running into
post Mormonism, right.

373
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,840
We once you know that I I get it
right.

374
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,560
That's the best place for some
folks.

375
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,960
And and if that's where they're
the Lord tells them to be,

376
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,000
that's where they should be.
And so if the church is trying

377
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,960
to fulfill that part of its
mission, and it is, it is, you

378
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:03,240
know, noticing that people are
leaving because of the shock

379
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,240
value of all of a sudden finding
out that Joseph was a

380
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,320
polygamist, well, then, yeah,
you as a responsible shepherd,

381
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,640
you would take whatever,
whatever's in front of you and

382
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,840
and try to fix that.
And, you know, granted, in a

383
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,840
perfect world where all men were
angels and everybody was always

384
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,800
on the up and up, you'd have led
with this years ago, right?

385
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,840
You'd have done this before it
became shock value.

386
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,440
So I don't want to completely
absolve the Church of, of doing

387
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,160
what it did.
At the same time, it's trying to

388
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,320
make corrective steps.
And as they make those

389
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,640
corrective steps, I, I think
that that when it's towards the

390
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,240
side of truth, I think you got
to kind of support that a little

391
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,120
bit.
The other thing I would say here

392
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,080
is he, he seems to by saying,
yeah, it's just because of the

393
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,480
Internet.
He is like saying, well, it

394
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,000
really doesn't count as a good
thing if that's the only reason

395
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,640
they're doing it for.
Well, let's look at this from a

396
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:06,520
personal standpoint.
When I go to the doctor and I

397
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,680
get a blood draw and he's like,
bro, I found your problem.

398
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,040
There's 4 cheeseburgers, 2
pizzas and a six pack rolling

399
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,920
around in your bloodstream.
You need to stop it and you need

400
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,160
to go to the gym.
If I go to the gym for the only

401
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,560
reason that I'm scared for my
health, is that a bad thing?

402
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,680
No, no, it, it's a corrective
measure to what I was doing

403
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,040
before.
And so on an institutional

404
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,080
level, that's what's happening
here, right?

405
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,400
For their own health and
fitness, so to speak, they need

406
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,960
to, you know, cut out all the
cupcake deep sixing and all the

407
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,720
pizzas and just come clean with
the steak of truth.

408
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:49,040
And so that's what we're seeing
here.

409
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,360
Steak of truth.
I like that.

410
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,440
That's I'm going.
To put that on a T-shirt.

411
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,560
Yeah, yeah, that's a good one.
Yeah.

412
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,120
So right.
And now the, I'll say even in

413
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,800
kind of defense of that, the
church has covered up stuff.

414
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,560
And you want an example of that
is you go to the Adam God

415
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,440
doctrine.
And like that the church like

416
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,560
did their very best to put that
down the 1984 memory hole.

417
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,640
Yep they did.
This doesn't exist.

418
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,200
Anti Mormons made it up.
Brigham was taken out of Brigham

419
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,880
never said that, but he was
taken out of context.

420
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,040
That's not what he meant.
OK, that is what he meant, but

421
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,600
technically he was wrong.
You know, like everything they

422
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,880
could.
So it's not like the church is

423
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,280
like guilt free on this.
But on this topic, if you go

424
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,840
back to like the pre Internet
world, this information was

425
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,960
available, you know, you just
had to work at it.

426
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:57,040
You had to go looking for it.
And the church wasn't hiding it.

427
00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,960
They were not putting it front
and center.

428
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:01,960
They weren't making sure that
you know about it.

429
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,400
But it was out there.
If if you were motivated.

430
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,440
And I think that what they were
struggling to balance is, you

431
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,760
know, they made the deal with
the devil in 1890 where they

432
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:23,800
they've got to go along with
Babylon, but they so they don't

433
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,960
want people going to
fundamentals.

434
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,520
They don't want them reading
Truth magazine and going off and

435
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:37,960
becoming gleamous.
But then they also mainly want

436
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,600
to look good to like the modern
Christian world.

437
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,760
And so really de emphasizing
this kind of pushing it in the

438
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,560
corner.
And I think that was like their

439
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:55,040
motivation, which is still
wrong, but I don't think it

440
00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:00,800
rises to this level of like, we
are trying to cover this up and

441
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,880
hide it.
So no one knows, you know?

442
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,240
But anyway, that's all I'll say
on that, all right?

443
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:14,760
Let's let's move on here.
Woe is Joseph, this was so hard.

444
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,440
This is how it was presented to
us, right?

445
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,760
And and I was I was told many
times, don't worry about it,

446
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,080
Sister Helfer, don't This is
we're no longer practicing at

447
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,840
Sister Helfer.
This was just in the moment.

448
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,560
It was difficult.
But then what really kind of

449
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,240
gets to people, and This is why
I don't think it's transparent,

450
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:40,160
is that you find out the truth.
You find out like you read the

451
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,520
historical journals of women who
were in polygamy.

452
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,040
He realized this is not that.
The little story and how it's

453
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,040
portrayed is not real.
Yeah, Yep.

454
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:58,960
And I'll just add like would if
once you know the details of

455
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,240
Joseph Smith's polygamy, and I'm
sure there's a lot of you that

456
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:07,680
don't know, he married 14 year
old girls, He married sister

457
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,520
pairs.
He married foster children that

458
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,920
were entrusted to his care.
He he married mother, daughter

459
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,400
pairs.
And again, 22 wives were

460
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,720
unbeknownst to his first wife,
Emma.

461
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:29,120
So again, it would to call it
the law of the Lord and to frame

462
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:33,080
Joseph Smith's polygamy as being
the law of the Lord means that

463
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:40,080
God condones his profits to be
sexual predators and pedophiles

464
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,160
on children.
I don't is that too extreme?

465
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,480
Like some people don't like
using the term pedophile with

466
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,320
Joseph Smith and I I don't know
what age I don't I actually

467
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,400
don't.
Maybe you know Natasha, what age

468
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:59,200
counts as pedophilia and if if
what he did with with 14 year

469
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,720
olds counts as that according to
your understanding?

470
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,560
Yeah, So this, so I do hear this
a lot.

471
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,040
And if we're going to be
sticklers on vocabulary, he

472
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,960
actually was not a pedophile.
A pedophile.

473
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,080
The the correct definition of
that is sexual attraction to

474
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,160
prepubescent children, right.
So people who have not gone

475
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,000
through puberty, a phebophilia
is attraction to adolescents and

476
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,880
minors who have gone through
puberty.

477
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,520
So even at the time, which is
another way that I think this

478
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,960
gets minimized, people will say,
well, back then it was normal

479
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,080
for girls who were 14 to be
having sex and getting married.

480
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,600
That actually was not true.
There were standards of youth

481
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,200
development even in the 1800s
around what was deemed

482
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,440
appropriate time to mate and to
marry and to have sex.

483
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,480
Yeah, and it wasn't 14, right?
But he was a predator.

484
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,320
Yes, I do agree with that
language and I do agree that.

485
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,840
All right, I'll have to unpack
there.

486
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:09,640
Go ahead.
Ben So yeah, I I guess it's good

487
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,800
that she pointed out that it's
not a pedophile.

488
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,640
Like, thanks for that.
That's good.

489
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:25,240
He's not a predator either.
Everyone like had agency in

490
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,240
this.
I think a lot of the stories get

491
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,320
kind of manipulated in the way
that they're, they're told to

492
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,520
put pressure on it.
But concerning Helen Mark

493
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:44,120
Kimball, that's the that's the
young wife that we actually do

494
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:49,080
know stuff about.
I think I I'm drawing a blank on

495
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:54,120
the the other young wife.
Those are about the same age.

496
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,000
I don't think we really just
have a lot of documents from

497
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,880
that.
But Helen Mark Kimball says that

498
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,680
they they did not have a
physical relationship.

499
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,760
Well, yeah.
And go ahead.

500
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,600
And so so she says that that's
like pretty well understood by

501
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:20,680
people who look into this, you
know, so like, that's really not

502
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,880
like they they just didn't.
Now, I am a person who's of the

503
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:31,160
opinion that if you want to
know, like what Joseph Smith's

504
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:36,880
practice of plural marriage
would have looked like had he

505
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,920
been free to kind of do it
openly.

506
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:44,160
Like look at Brigham Young and
you're going to get, I think

507
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,000
I'm, I believe Brigham Young is
a prophet.

508
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,400
I believe he was the rightful
successor to Joseph Smith.

509
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,640
And I believe that while not a
perfect person, he was sincerely

510
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,800
doing his level best to do
things the way that Joseph Smith

511
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:06,080
had them done.
When young marriages were

512
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:11,760
allowed, the council was
specifically that those

513
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,400
marriages should not be
consummated at A at a young age

514
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,600
and like the evidence shows that
that pretty well followed.

515
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:28,320
So I don't believe that Joseph
and had a physical.

516
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:31,640
Say that again, you kind of
broke up.

517
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,160
I said I don't believe that
Joseph and Helen Mark Campbell

518
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,920
ever had AI.
Don't think there's any.

519
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,240
No, I don't think they had a
sexual relationship either.

520
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,960
And one of the things that, and
look, it's my opinion that I

521
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,600
think these folks are falling in
the same trap that a lot of

522
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,440
people fall into, which is this
idea that Joseph gets a

523
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,120
revelation and he knows all the
insurance and outs about

524
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,720
whatever ordinance or principal
he just got a revelation on,

525
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,880
right?
I think what history tends to

526
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,880
show if, if you're looking at
honest history and trying to do

527
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,080
an assessment there, it's that
he would receive a revelation

528
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,640
and then often go back with more
questions for clarification and

529
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,560
start working out the details,
right?

530
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:24,520
I think a good example of this
is when baptism for the dead

531
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,280
kicks off, right?
And everyone just rushes down to

532
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,520
the Mississippi and they just go
at it, right?

533
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,920
And Joseph has to come along and
go, whoa, whoa, whoa.

534
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,520
I don't think this is what the
Lord meant.

535
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,680
Let's back it up a little bit
and let's let's talk about this.

536
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,000
So I think with sealing today in
Mormon culture, we tend to look

537
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,200
at ceilings as kind of a
romantic thing, right?

538
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,680
It is a husband and wife who
have fallen in love who are now

539
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,480
going to the appropriate place
with the appropriate authority

540
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,160
to become husband and wife.
My contention is, is I'm not

541
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,440
sure that when when this idea of
sealing first comes out along

542
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,200
with plural marriage, that that
there's a really good

543
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,080
understanding of what it looks
like, Right?

544
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,679
And so if you read a lot of
Joseph Smith, he's talking about

545
00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:17,440
sealing not just his family
together, but all the families

546
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,679
in the church together, right?
And so I think I think what,

547
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:26,400
what what we're looking at here
is, is kind of almost an

548
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,159
adoption thing in some ways with
some, not all of them, right?

549
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:31,760
I want to be clear on that,
right?

550
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,400
I do believe that Joseph Smith
did practice plural marriage and

551
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:41,639
had romantic relations with some
of his wives, but I think

552
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,080
there's some of that that's
doesn't fall under that

553
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,679
category.
So to blatantly put this on

554
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:51,360
Joseph that hey, he's just this
old dude out there gooning after

555
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,440
a younger, you know, adolescent
girl just doesn't hold water

556
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,440
with what all we know.
The other thing I'll say is is

557
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,880
you know, it, it talks about,
you know, and, and I'll just

558
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,880
kind of be it to the punch here,
the polyandry stuff with Joseph.

559
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,760
I think almost all of the women
that he, he was sealed to that

560
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:18,080
already had husbands.
We know Joseph had the ability

561
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,960
to have children, right?
Him and Emma had biological

562
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,560
children.
Why is it we can't find any

563
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,800
heirs from those women, right,
or from Helen Mark Kimball or

564
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,280
something like that?
The reason is is because it

565
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,040
probably didn't happen.
Yeah, that's well.

566
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,240
And that's my.
Thoughts on it?

567
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,480
And that's the point that the
polygamy deniers like to to

568
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,480
bring up.
And, you know, the the problem

569
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:52,040
with that is that, you know,
it's kind of hard to like prove

570
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:57,760
like two people did or didn't
have sex 200 years ago.

571
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:02,120
You know, like, OK, well, they
didn't have children.

572
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,480
It's like, all right, Well, you
know, having children, it's like

573
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:11,440
a really good evidence that you
did, but not having them isn't

574
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,640
necessarily evidence that you
you did or didn't.

575
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:19,160
So like that's kind of sparky
there.

576
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,840
And, and I, I do want to be
careful cause a lot of like the

577
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:27,000
polygamy denier go to this like,
'cause when you press them on

578
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,160
ceilings, they're like, Oh,
well, yeah, it was just this

579
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:37,560
dynastic thing, which there is a
dynastic element to it, but they

580
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,920
try to just like shovel that
away.

581
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,840
Now, what I'll say is like a
good example of what you're

582
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:48,920
talking about is Fanny Young,
Brigham Young's older sister.

583
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:55,880
The story goes that Brigham and,
and Joseph are talking to her.

584
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:59,080
She's older.
I think she's like 13 years

585
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:06,880
older than Brigham Young.
And she has had a a couple of

586
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:10,480
unhappy marriages.
I think 1 ended in death and

587
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,160
another divorce.
And it was.

588
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,800
And so Joseph teaches, yeah, you
need to be married and sealed

589
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,080
for exaltation.
And she basically says, count me

590
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,440
out.
I would rather just be a

591
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,400
ministering Angel.
You know, I don't want to do

592
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,040
marriage again.
Didn't work out.

593
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,280
And Joseph basically says, no,
you don't know what you're

594
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,120
talking about.
Like, please don't deprive

595
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,080
yourself that blessing.
And he says to Brigham, I want

596
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:45,640
you to seal her to me now so
that she has that as a as a an

597
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,600
option for the next life.
I'm like, they were sealed.

598
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,920
And that is basically the extent
of that marriage as far as like

599
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:01,000
this mortal life is concerned.
So there there was like

600
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,480
sometimes there were ceilings
that were just for the

601
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,960
ordinance, like so that could be
done.

602
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,080
And then other times, yeah,
there there were ceilings and it

603
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:16,840
was a full like cohabitating
marriage that we'd expect.

604
00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:21,160
And so I think, you know, when
you have it, that many wives,

605
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,760
you have that many
relationships, they're all

606
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,960
different.
This is all being done in

607
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,280
secret.
So I really don't like when

608
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,880
people just sort of like muddy
the waters and try and make them

609
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,400
all the the same thing.
You really?

610
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,120
Got to look at like a, they're
going to be as individual as any

611
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,880
other marriage, right?
And and that's, that's kind of

612
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,320
the bottom line.
Mason, is there anything you

613
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,680
want to add to that?
You know, there is.

614
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,240
I've been stealing on this for a
minute.

615
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,840
You know a careful reading of
Doctrine Covenant section 132.

616
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,080
This is verse 60.
It reads.

617
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,840
Let no one therefore set on my
servant Joseph, for I will

618
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,680
justify him, for he shall do the
sacrifice which I required his

619
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,400
hands for his transgression,
saith the Lord your God.

620
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,000
We don't follow like the Sunnah
of Joseph Smith.

621
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,640
You know we.
Don't we don't look to him as

622
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,520
like this perfect figure in our
religion that's we did.

623
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,240
We don't think about him in the
same way that the Muslims look

624
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:24,040
to Muhammad.
So it's perfectly

625
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,840
understandable.
And we have documented history

626
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:32,320
of Joseph being rebuked in the
scriptures, examples like the

627
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,560
one that I just read where the
Lord references his

628
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,840
transgressions.
And so we, we don't need to die

629
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,640
on this hill that he did
everything perfectly, but

630
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,680
there's no error in his
revelation.

631
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:52,080
You know, at the end of the day,
even if there were mishaps or

632
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,640
mistakes in the implementation,
that doesn't mean that plural

633
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,960
marriage is not a true principle
or that the doctrine outlined in

634
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,800
section 132 is not the way that
the universe is governed.

635
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,720
You know it.
That's that's all a secondary

636
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:11,040
historical issue.
And we read in the Scriptures

637
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,720
history of the prophets who
received revelations, and they.

638
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:18,600
They didn't act on them like
Jonah who ran from his calling

639
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,240
or they failed to implement them
properly.

640
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,960
Like that's a huge theme in
Exodus where Moses is struggling

641
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,840
to get the Israelites to do what
the Lord is commanding them to

642
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:35,000
do.
And I just, I don't understand

643
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,640
where, where they're coming from
with this.

644
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,600
They're basically holding him to
a higher standard than they

645
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,000
would any other biblical figure.
You know, nobody talks about how

646
00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:53,800
Moses did this or Abraham did
this because it's evident that

647
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,480
they were men, even though they
handed, they held such a high

648
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:01,880
calling and they they made
mistakes in that office.

649
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,760
But Even so, they held that
office.

650
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,520
And the doctrine they they
produced is still true.

651
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,920
David lost his exultation and we
still read the songs to this

652
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,880
day.
You know, yeah.

653
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,880
It's that's a really good point.
And they're just to like go

654
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,880
along with that.
Joseph made that point

655
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,600
explicitly.
And the book Remembering Joseph,

656
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,600
it's a great book.
It's just a collection of

657
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,680
people, individual people's
recollections of their

658
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,760
experiences with Joseph Smith.
And there's a story that gets

659
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:41,440
told in Zion's camp where Joseph
is teaching about how you

660
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,480
shouldn't kill animals
wastefully, like you shouldn't

661
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,560
just kill them for sport.
If you kill an animal, you

662
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,280
should use it.
You should eat the meat.

663
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,960
Like, you know, you should do
that with gratitude.

664
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,840
And he completes the sermon, and
then he walks away.

665
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,000
He sees a squirrel in the tree.
He shoots it down, and then he

666
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,360
just walks past and just leaves
it there.

667
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,520
And so then the brethren got up
and they picked up the squirrel.

668
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,880
They prepared it, they cooked
it, and they ate it.

669
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,280
And Joseph said that that was
good.

670
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:21,640
He said that he was happy to see
that they learned by principle

671
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:26,080
and not by example.
He he, he did that explicitly to

672
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,240
say, if you see me doing
something wrong, are you going

673
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:34,160
to follow my example or are you
going to follow the precept?

674
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,720
So yeah, you study Section 132,
I think.

675
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,240
I don't know that anyone really
knows what was going on with

676
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:47,040
those like, you know,
polyandrous marriages is their

677
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,360
term.
Section 132 doesn't allow it.

678
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:55,880
Like the law that Joseph gave us
from the Lord that it it does

679
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,360
not allow it.
So yeah, I don't know what's

680
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:00,520
going on.
Maybe there are other

681
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,240
circumstances.
Maybe just was wrong.

682
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,680
I don't I don't fully understand
that and I haven't talked to

683
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,880
anyone who I felt did.
But yeah, that's that's correct.

684
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,640
I think I'm really gotten Mason
about that.

685
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,840
Perfect.
All right, let's continue on

686
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:21,080
here.
Let me go down to the next one.

687
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,320
And so that scripture was
saying, don't be a polygamist.

688
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,320
And then for the first several
decades in the Mormon church's

689
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,240
history, the doctrine of
Covenants itself said that men

690
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:36,360
should only have one wife and
women one husband.

691
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,960
And so.
Right, let's see.

692
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,600
Oh, this is a picture of.
Describe Joseph's picture.

693
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,080
He is devastated.
He is sitting kneeling by his

694
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,800
bed with his head in his hands.
He is distressed.

695
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,480
He is tormented at this horrible
commandment that God gives.

696
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,720
Exactly because as as long as we
can imagine Joseph to be a

697
00:43:56,720 --> 00:44:00,240
victim, then we can just forget
that the other people in this

698
00:44:00,240 --> 00:44:03,800
story are also victims and we
can feel bad for Joseph and just

699
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,760
be like wow, God is such a
sneaky guy OK.

700
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,400
Is this picture making you tear
up at Joseph Smith and Tasha?

701
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,360
It's.
Just making me so sad for his

702
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,040
hardness.
OK, keep.

703
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,880
Going a few years later, the
Lord told Joseph to marry other

704
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,520
women.
Poor Joe Joseph didn't want to

705
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,520
marry other wives, but he knew
it was a commandment from the

706
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,640
Lord.
He had no choice.

707
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,120
That was my, that was my
addition.

708
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,320
When Joseph asked a woman to
marry him, he told her to pray

709
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,080
about it.
He wanted her to know from the

710
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,720
Lord that it was right.
All right, any what?

711
00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:41,160
What don't you like about that,
Alyssa?

712
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,440
OK.
I mean, I think it is

713
00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:48,320
misleading, kind of going back
to Natasha's point that this is

714
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,280
not necessarily a transparent
scripture story that Joseph is

715
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:59,200
asking other women to to pray
about it because many times the

716
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,240
women would pray about it, say,
no, this happened, you know,

717
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:05,000
repeatedly.
And Lucy Walker's the first

718
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:06,280
person I'm thinking of right
now.

719
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,560
And then he would basically say,
like, oh, you need ask again.

720
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,520
And then then they would say
that it was OK or he would

721
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,160
threaten physical violence if
she didn't marry him.

722
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,680
And so then she would say, OK,
so it's this, you know, coerced

723
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,920
coercion rather than actual
consent that they are just

724
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,560
trying to spin around into
being.

725
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,200
Oh, yeah.
As long as she knew it was right

726
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,080
also.
Totally.

727
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,240
It was totally fine.
He was sad and the woman was

728
00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:35,960
totally fine, is kind of how
this slide reads.

729
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,240
Yeah, and and if you read some
of the accounts, he was like

730
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:46,320
mayor, like head of the Nabu
Legion prophet, like Chief

731
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,680
Justice.
He held all the titles.

732
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:53,200
And then he'll corner this
teenage girl in a room, close

733
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,240
the door, parents aren't there,
literally a minor.

734
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,760
And then say, hey, God told God
told me that I need to marry

735
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,880
you.
And if you do it, he would add,

736
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,120
not only you, but all your
parents and posterity will be

737
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,480
saved in the highest degree of
heaven.

738
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,680
And if you and if you don't,
then I, I don't know that you'll

739
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,560
be damned.
I mean, that's the implication.

740
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,480
I don't know whether you're
centered or not.

741
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,680
So it's just a awfully, horribly
coercive proposal.

742
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,800
So that I don't like, he's like.
No, just think.

743
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,880
About it and if.
It all right, Ben?

744
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,440
Yeah.
So, yeah, I don't know if you

745
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,520
actually said that, like maybe
maybe you should look into that

746
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,080
first.
Yeah.

747
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,040
Again, like you're completing a
lot of different stories or he's

748
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:49,120
completing a lot of different
stories together in the the same

749
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:54,320
thing there.
And you know, like in the case

750
00:46:54,320 --> 00:47:00,480
of like the only one that I'm
aware of where Joseph says like,

751
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:06,400
not only you, but your family
will be exalted because of this

752
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,120
is Helen Mark Kimball.
Again.

753
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:17,000
And what is often left out of
that scenario is the reason kind

754
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:22,920
of why that was said is it was
it wasn't Joseph who sought

755
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:29,120
marriage to Helen Mark Kimball.
It was it was her father, it was

756
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,480
Heber C Kimball who wanted to
have his daughter sealed to the

757
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:40,040
prophet.
And so like, it really was the

758
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,560
the family was kind of doing
this together, like they, they

759
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,280
were involved in it.
And that's why, like, Joseph is

760
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:54,200
recognizing that they are making
a sacrifice, like together,

761
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:57,760
they're like displaying an act
of faith all together.

762
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,560
And he is promising them
blessings because of that, You

763
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,560
know, like, that's what
happened.

764
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:08,280
And then, you know, when you
take like, oh, he's like, he

765
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,240
didn't corner her.
He didn't threaten her with

766
00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:16,200
violence like that.
That isn't at all what happened.

767
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:21,400
It was like Heber C Campbell
goes to his wife and his

768
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:28,160
daughter, they all go to Joseph
and he gives them this blessing

769
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,320
because of their active faith.
Like that's how about it?

770
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:38,880
I have like the levels at which
they go here in describing this.

771
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,880
I'm just left going, how do you
know?

772
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,040
How do you know?
Do you have documents that that

773
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,360
you know?
And maybe they do, but I doubt

774
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,080
it.
There's nothing that I have read

775
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,600
that would indicate that this
was a predatory kind of a thing,

776
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,000
right?
That that Joseph was using his

777
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,880
position of power to acquire
wives, right?

778
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,880
Well, and we also have evidence
like to the contrary and the

779
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:14,080
case of like Hubert J Grant's
mother, Rachel Ivins.

780
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:21,200
She was a a woman that Joseph
proposed to and she said no and

781
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:27,160
that was respected, you know,
and so much so that like after

782
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:32,280
his passing, she requested to be
sealed to him vicariously.

783
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:38,360
So like, you know, like she
doesn't come with any story of

784
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,520
like Joseph threaten me.
He cornered me like, you know,

785
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:48,520
like, or I just, I just had to
because he was the mayor, you

786
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:53,960
know, like, like that's.
Six dig mayors Ben there's I

787
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,600
mean, that's.
OK, well, yeah, but you know,

788
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:03,320
again.
Look that.

789
00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:06,640
Doesn't mean that like consent
can't happen.

790
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,560
Mayors are allowed to to fight
love.

791
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,960
OK, we we don't once you become
the mayor, we don't lock you up

792
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,960
and say hey, don't.
You're this is a bone I.

793
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,200
Think I think it's a little
obscure doctrine, kind of like

794
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,480
Catholic priests.
Once you become mayor, mayor,

795
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,680
you become celibate.
I think it's in there somewhere,

796
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,240
I think.
It's that if, well, if you were

797
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:31,800
an ethical person and you were a
mayor, you would, you would

798
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,760
become celibate.
You know, you're like, you just

799
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,000
go to even if you're married,
you turn to your wife and say,

800
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:40,360
look, now that I'm mayor,
there's an unhealthy power

801
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,280
imbalance in our marriage.
We can never have sex again.

802
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,320
I'm sorry.
This is the way it's got to be.

803
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,960
I am the mayor and it would be
unethical for us to have a

804
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,080
relationship with this power
imbalance that we have.

805
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,720
Right, right.
If you yes, yes.

806
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:03,840
So I mean, there there is that
you know, the only problem I see

807
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:13,480
with their argument right there
is that it just does not seem to

808
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,200
be the majority of the
experiences that are had, right.

809
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,560
You have women who will say,
look, that was me and Joseph's

810
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,080
marriage.
I'm not going to talk about it

811
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,680
again.
Other women who talk about it

812
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,600
in, in glowing terms being being
sealed to, to Joseph Smith.

813
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:35,960
There's, there's a lot out there
and I feel like they, they take

814
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,800
maybe the lowest hanging fruit,
if you will, the the one that's

815
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,840
the most scandalous and then
they build their narrative

816
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,160
around that.
Well, and they can't even be

817
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,640
honest about it because that one
is I, I think probably the most

818
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,320
controversial of Joseph's wives
is Hella Mark Campbell.

819
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:59,000
And they can't even be honest
about her because they, you

820
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:04,400
know, like, for a long time,
they would take like, she wrote

821
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,600
these poems when she was a
teenager about how she felt like

822
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:14,680
she was a bird locked in a cage.
And they tried to, like, show

823
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,920
that that was, like, her way of
describing her trauma and having

824
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,520
being forced in this sexual
relationship.

825
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:28,280
And really, like, in context,
it's actually quite clear that

826
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,920
she was mad because her dad
wouldn't let her.

827
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:33,960
One, she wasn't cohabitating
with Joseph.

828
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,160
And two, she was mad that her
dad wouldn't let her go to

829
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:42,000
dances anymore because he said,
well, yeah, I know.

830
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,640
But still, technically you're
you're a married woman.

831
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,920
It's not appropriate for you to
go be dancing with boys.

832
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,040
So I I don't want you going to
dances like that.

833
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,040
Was it She was mad that she
couldn't go to a dance Like it

834
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,840
was like and and that gets
twisted.

835
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,360
And the other thing that they
they drop Helen Mark Kimball

836
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:08,000
really quick that they only are
interested in her at this young

837
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,480
point in her life.
They don't want to find anything

838
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,480
about what happened to the rest
of her life because she grew up

839
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:19,320
to be one of the most outspoken
advocates for plural marriage

840
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:24,680
that the church has ever had.
She she wrote extensively about

841
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,680
it.
She was politically active in

842
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,320
defending plural marriage when
she she got married.

843
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:36,520
Later, she insisted that her
husband live plural marriage.

844
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:42,520
She pushed him and encouraged
him to to take other wives like

845
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,400
she was 100% on board.
She said that she would never

846
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,960
want to live in a monogamous
marriage, ever.

847
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:53,960
So what you're saying is, is
that for Helen Mark Kimball, it

848
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:57,680
was so bad she did it all over
again?

849
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,680
Yeah, like she insisted her
husband was not, like, super

850
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,320
excited about it, you know, like
he, she was the one who was,

851
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,800
like, really pushing it.
And if this had been this

852
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:15,760
horrible thing, like she had
ample opportunity to, like, not

853
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,840
go along with it.
And you can say, oh, well, she

854
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,640
was Heber C Campbell's daughter.
It's like, yeah, but he had kids

855
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:24,080
who left the church.
Yeah, then they didn't, they

856
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:25,960
didn't stick the Danites after
them.

857
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:31,920
No, like it was fine.
This was something that was very

858
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:37,120
clearly she was convicted of and
passionate about.

859
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,840
And if that's ever mentioned, it
is glossed over.

860
00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:45,760
They try to kind of insinuate
that maybe it was Stockholm

861
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:50,600
syndrome or something like that.
It's just they're, they're, they

862
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:58,920
either completely ignore the
totality of her life or they

863
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,680
they lie about it.
Yep, absolutely.

864
00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:05,600
And and you're 100% correct.
I've had Hannah Stoddard on here

865
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:10,520
and we did a whole episode about
Helen Mark Kimble and and I've

866
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:15,040
I've talked with oh, I'm
blanking.

867
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:22,280
Sucks getting old.
Oh, Kimberly Watson Smith, man,

868
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,960
Sorry about that, folks.
Yeah, Kimberly Watson Smith.

869
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,360
We've talked about the women of
Mormondum, you know, who were

870
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,560
advocates of plural marriage on
this podcast.

871
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:36,960
And those are very inconvenient
narratives for for people who

872
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,400
who want to find fault with
plural marriage and its

873
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,280
principle.
Because if, if you have faith

874
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,400
promoting testimonies of it from
the women who are the ones who

875
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:51,160
were supposed to be oppressed in
this, it, it doesn't bode real

876
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,640
well for your argument, right?
Yeah.

877
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,480
And they won't.
Like you said, they cut that off

878
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,240
as quickly as they can.
Cause the last thing they want

879
00:55:59,240 --> 00:56:02,360
is for you to see the rest of
Helen Mark Kimball's life.

880
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,560
Well, you know, they've got,
they've got a narrative to

881
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:11,280
promote and and that becomes
really clear because if you are,

882
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,840
if you're after the truth and
you come across something that

883
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:21,240
contradicts your beliefs, if
you're an honest person, you're

884
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:23,760
like, well, that isn't what I
expected.

885
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,760
You know, you don't have to
change your beliefs.

886
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:28,280
I've run into stuff all the
time.

887
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,560
We like, acknowledge that just
just in this episode, we don't

888
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,240
really know what was going on
with polyandry.

889
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,560
I don't like it.
I don't.

890
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,320
I don't fully know exactly what
was going on with that, you

891
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,960
know, but like, because I'm an
honest person, I acknowledge.

892
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,640
Yeah, like, that's a thing that
conflicts with my beliefs, and

893
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:50,840
it's there.
I don't know what the full story

894
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,080
going on, you know?
And if you're this person who

895
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:59,800
wants Helen Mark Kimball to be a
victim, if you're honest, you

896
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,520
have to say OK.
The whole rest of her life

897
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,440
entirely goes against what I
believe about her.

898
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,440
Yep.
And if you're not doing that, if

899
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,960
you're refusing to do that, you
aren't honest.

900
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,560
You're promoting a narrative,
and you're only selecting the

901
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,040
stuff that agrees with what you
want.

902
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,520
You know, I am concerned for
you, Ben, because you said

903
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,680
you're not totally, you know,
understanding of the whole

904
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:27,440
polyandry thing and you don't
like it.

905
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,000
I feel like what you need to do
is start your own podcast and

906
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,640
just, you know, come out with
all these sensational claims.

907
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:36,800
I mean.
There may.

908
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,400
Or may not be money in that I
don't know yet.

909
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:45,360
You know, there there could be a
whole subsection of a people.

910
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:49,560
I would never want to accuse you
of being a grievance seeker, but

911
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:51,560
I'm just saying there may be
some money there.

912
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:55,160
I don't know.
Was hurt by Joseph Spaley.

913
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:59,960
Andrew, you know, I haven't been
as active on TikTok lately, what

914
00:57:59,960 --> 00:58:03,040
with the whole, like, band
thing, but I hear that there's a

915
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,960
new Chinese app that everyone's
like jumping onto.

916
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:13,320
So maybe I'll go talk to the the
Chinese about Yeah, on Red Note.

917
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,000
Yeah, I think the Chinese are
super concerned with Joseph

918
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,480
Smith's polyandry.
I think that they want to know.

919
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,760
I think, I think the people want
to know, Yeah.

920
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,080
Mason, you got anything you want
to add there, bud?

921
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:30,040
No, I think we've pretty much
covered everything there.

922
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,640
OK, good enough.
All right, here we go.

923
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,120
Let's let's go ahead and let's
move on again.

924
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,440
You know, actually, before we
move on, I want to say one other

925
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,080
thing.
They they sat there and kind of

926
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,040
mocked Joseph like, oh, I'm sure
it was so tough for him.

927
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:49,040
Look, this is a dude that's had
the crap kicked out of him for

928
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,320
simply introducing a new
Scripture, right?

929
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:58,560
And so I can only imagine how
excited he must be truly to go

930
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:07,200
and upset Victorian society by
introducing a new a new, new

931
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:10,280
form of marriage, right?
That goes against Victorian

932
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:13,760
sensibilities.
And I think it's I think it's

933
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:18,120
pretty disingenuous if you know,
you're trying to do honest

934
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:22,320
history here a little bit and
look at it and say, well, maybe

935
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:24,760
it was tough, right?
I wouldn't want to introduce

936
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,120
that Ben.
I mean, maybe he would, but I

937
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,600
I'd be like, Nope, not me.
Sorry you got the wrong dude.

938
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:36,240
Well, and, you know, it's, it's
one thing to say like, Oh yeah,

939
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:40,040
you know, guys, 'cause we know
about like guys that cheat on

940
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:45,480
their wives and their pastors
that, you know, give these like

941
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:51,680
fearful confessions about how
they, you know, were unfaithful

942
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,480
to their, their wives and all
this stuff.

943
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,640
So it's not as if like that
stuff doesn't happen.

944
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:02,760
But man, this seems like a bad
way to go about like if that's

945
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,440
what you're, if you're just.
You know, aren't happy with your

946
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,960
wife and, and you're you're
looking for more.

947
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:13,160
This seems like just about the
worst possible way to to go

948
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,360
about that.
There's just a lot easier ways

949
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,160
that are more socially
acceptable.

950
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:23,920
And even back then, like it's
it's never been the case that

951
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:30,720
adultery has been more offensive
to American Society than plural

952
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:36,360
marriage and that and like
really like people should stop

953
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:45,760
and contemplate that just a bit
like a man can abandoned his

954
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:51,840
wife and children and go marry a
younger, hotter woman.

955
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,960
And at most he gets kind of tut
tutted.

956
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:02,120
But it's 100% legal and pretty
much everyone's going to go

957
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,200
along with it, right?
And so like, we're OK with

958
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:11,160
broken homes, we're OK with, I
mean, and a man can do that

959
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:13,320
multiple.
You can have, you can have 3 or

960
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:18,200
4 wives in a row.
But like, we're going to lose

961
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:22,680
our minds if like, why is it
that if let's just make it

962
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:30,080
simple with two wives, why is it
worse for a man to have two

963
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:34,640
wives where he cares for them,
cares for their children,

964
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,080
They're all together, it's all
open and honest, They're living

965
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:43,160
in harmony.
Why is that worse than breaking

966
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,040
up a marriage, destroying a
family, having all this like

967
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:51,920
heartache and then going on to
to someone else?

968
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:56,280
Like why is it that like that
second one is the one that our

969
01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:00,640
society prefers, right?
That's a horrible situation.

970
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,680
It's bad for kids.
It's terrible.

971
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:08,800
But like American Society looks
at the first one and says, Oh my

972
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,960
gosh, that's horrible When like
they're they're fine.

973
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:19,400
Maybe they don't like it kinda,
but like not really, right?

974
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,160
Right.
Nope, I agree.

975
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:24,120
I agree.
And and I want to point

976
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:28,120
something else out here just so
I I feel like I have to make

977
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:31,080
this disclaimer so everybody
knows I am not espousing

978
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,040
marrying underage girls, right?
That is bad.

979
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,160
Do not do that.
Right.

980
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:39,400
Don't.
It's, it's a scuzzy thing to do

981
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,360
today.
Don't do it, right?

982
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:47,400
Frontier America is a little
different than 2025, right?

983
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:48,680
Right.
Don't.

984
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:52,640
Don't.
I'm not, I'm not advocating for

985
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,200
marrying underage brides and I
don't think you are either,

986
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:57,360
Brent.
So no.

987
01:02:57,600 --> 01:02:59,960
And.
Mike yeah, don't do it.

988
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:04,000
Don't just bad, don't do it.
We don't need to overanalyze

989
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:05,760
that one.
No, no.

990
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:07,840
All right, here we go.
Moving on.

991
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:13,040
OK, this one, Joseph.
And this is also just visually

992
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:16,480
interesting considering that the
idea of plural marriage is about

993
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:21,400
a man with with multiple women,
and we never see an image of

994
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:24,760
that.
Interestingly enough, we do see

995
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:28,000
an image of Joseph standing in
the center of a group of men who

996
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,000
are the 12 apostles, which just
kind of made me chuckle a little

997
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:34,880
bit that that even in a story
that's all about multiple women,

998
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,440
we're still quite literally
centering the.

999
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,560
Man.
Standing in the middle of a

1000
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:42,520
circle of men, so that that was
just, it was like almost funny.

1001
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:44,680
That's a good point, I didn't
think of that.

1002
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:48,680
There's no photo of Joseph with
this 32 wives or Brigham.

1003
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,400
Yeah.
With this or even 5 wives or

1004
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:51,320
two.
Wives.

1005
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:52,720
Yeah.
We, we don't see them.

1006
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:53,680
We don't.
We don't.

1007
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:55,480
They're never named.
None of them.

1008
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:57,040
Right.
We never hear.

1009
01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:58,600
It may name one.
It may name.

1010
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:00,320
One it may, perhaps they do OK,
OK.

1011
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,360
Anyway, circle of men.
Very, very Mormon, right?

1012
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:05,880
Natasha?
Does that look familiar to you,

1013
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:06,520
Natasha?
I'll just be.

1014
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:09,760
Quiet, you're about to expose.
Yeah, we're all very familiar

1015
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,480
and comfortable with this image,
so.

1016
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:18,200
OK, you're about.
I can see you just like wanting

1017
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,400
to erupt.
Yes, yes.

1018
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:28,920
So First off, what do you want,
right?

1019
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,040
That's the question I want to
ask them.

1020
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:35,400
What do you want?
Right, we want to be mad.

1021
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,800
Right.
I'm like, I do not understand

1022
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,200
what you want.
Like holy cow.

1023
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:47,240
So the church like comes out and
does what you want, right?

1024
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:51,400
Be more transparent, not
transparent enough.

1025
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:56,080
And gosh darn it, Ben, there's
the patriarchy gag and just

1026
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:59,840
trying to keep women down, you
know, 'cause it's just showing

1027
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,800
Joseph teaching the 12 apostles.
Hold on.

1028
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:07,800
The whole name of that segment
is Joseph teaches the Quorum of

1029
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:10,600
the 12 Apostles.
You know what?

1030
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:14,760
If you want women in the
apostlehood, the RLDS are right

1031
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,320
down the road.
You can go jam with them.

1032
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,600
They're there.
Well, that's not what they

1033
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:21,960
really want.
No, no, that's not what they

1034
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:25,480
want.
And now here is where I think we

1035
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:27,800
and, and this is the whole
reason I wanted to bring this

1036
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:33,960
segment up.
There is a whole segment of post

1037
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:38,960
Mormonism now that is into some
crazy swinger kind of stuff,

1038
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:42,680
right?
It's it's almost a meme at this

1039
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:43,800
point.
It is.

1040
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,440
It is.
So that's OK.

1041
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,840
But the second a man takes care
of more than one woman, that's

1042
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,520
when the feminists come out with
their fangs bared, ready to go

1043
01:05:54,520 --> 01:06:00,480
for the throat, right?
So just do me a favor on the

1044
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:04,080
other side of that argument.
Just be consistent, right?

1045
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:06,280
That's all I asked for.
Be consistent.

1046
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:07,840
Don't now one.
Thing.

1047
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:09,720
Oh, go ahead.
Don't.

1048
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:14,600
Don't couch your hedonism as
trying to be more moral than a

1049
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:18,680
family system.
Right, Because one side will

1050
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:24,160
produce children, one side will
have, can have happy, healthy

1051
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:26,080
families.
Are there bad polygamist

1052
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:27,280
families?
You bet.

1053
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:30,400
Just like there's bad monogamist
families, right?

1054
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:33,280
What?
What you're really complaining

1055
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:38,240
about here is the fact that you
just can't get rid of the

1056
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:40,800
patriarchy, I think is what is
spoiling.

1057
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:44,080
Yeah, well, they, they want to
be mad no matter what.

1058
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:48,920
Now, like the I'm kind of with
her a little bit to begin with,

1059
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:55,960
where I I would actually really
like to see more artistic

1060
01:06:55,960 --> 01:07:02,400
depictions of plural marriage,
especially in historical

1061
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:07,320
settings.
I like that image of Joseph with

1062
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:09,640
all of his wives.
I would love to see that.

1063
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,720
That would that would be great.
You know, like boy in my house.

1064
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:20,840
And to like present and and and
it is kind of a fairpoint to

1065
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:25,560
like for them to criticize the
church that like there is no

1066
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:31,000
actual depiction of multiple
wives in this.

1067
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:36,400
And I think, and this sort of
goes against like the anti's

1068
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:40,320
narrative that the church is
like promoting plural marriage

1069
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:45,760
here because they're, they're
very careful not to depict that,

1070
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:48,680
right?
Because what they want to do is

1071
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:54,640
they want to kind of release
the, the tension, get rid of

1072
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:59,440
the, the shock value, make sure
that like people are aware that

1073
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:05,680
this happened, but they don't
want it to look attractive and

1074
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:11,160
they don't, they don't want you
to have a visual of a happy

1075
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,400
plural family, right?
They, they, they don't want

1076
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:19,840
that.
And so that, that, that really

1077
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:21,040
isn't, and I would like to see
that.

1078
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:27,800
I, I would 100% love to see more
of those kinds of depictions in,

1079
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:29,160
in art.
That'd be great.

1080
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:32,760
My only push back to her
argument on that 'cause I agree,

1081
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:34,880
right?
I would like to see more artwork

1082
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,600
that depicts healthy plural
families right?

1083
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:41,000
However it.
Isn't quite ready.

1084
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,399
I've tried.
What's that?

1085
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:46,720
I said AI isn't quite ready for
the task.

1086
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:48,279
I've I've tried you've.
Tried.

1087
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:49,840
You've tried.
OK, fair.

1088
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,000
Fair enough.
We'll, I'm sure it'll get there.

1089
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:58,080
But I think it's important to
remember that this was meant for

1090
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:02,800
youth, right?
That you're diving into a youth

1091
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:05,200
thing.
This is, look, it's sketched

1092
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,200
like a cartoon for a reason,
right?

1093
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:11,040
They're trying to present this
in such a way that, as we've

1094
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:14,080
said, an 8 to 12 year old can
wrap their minds around it and

1095
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,080
be like, OK, this is what
happened.

1096
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,880
The other thing I would say
about that, about the whole

1097
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:26,160
picture thing, is they may not
be shown, at least back in the

1098
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,840
day for a reason, right?
I mean, Joseph was killed,

1099
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:32,720
right?
You know, you don't want to just

1100
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:37,279
show who his family was in those
days because you don't know.

1101
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:44,359
Who Joseph never did live openly
with his Yep.

1102
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,120
Absolutely, Mason.
Anything you want to chime in

1103
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:56,640
there bud?
You know, I think another kind

1104
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:00,520
of topic for discussion here is
that plural marriage isn't just

1105
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,960
something that happened in the
past, right?

1106
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:07,160
It's it's a very much an ongoing
thing, although it's not I.

1107
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:16,600
Had no idea, but it's right.
And it's like we're.

1108
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,120
Completely ignoring everything
we have about it today.

1109
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:24,280
You know, we can, I've, I've
been and I've observed happy

1110
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,560
people in plural marriage.
I've seen well functioning

1111
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:31,240
plural families.
It it exists, You know, we don't

1112
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:34,040
need to look into the past to
try to find it.

1113
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,920
We don't need to look into the
past to find justification.

1114
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:41,440
We're standing in front of it.
You know, we're having this this

1115
01:10:41,440 --> 01:10:45,240
lofty historical debate about
the way that it was introduced

1116
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,920
and whether or not it can stand
on its leg historically.

1117
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:51,120
But the fact of the matter is we
have it standing right in front

1118
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:53,080
of us.
And although there are occasions

1119
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:55,320
where it's proven to be a great
detriment to the people

1120
01:10:55,320 --> 01:11:01,720
involved, like in the case of
Warren Jeffs, for example, those

1121
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:05,920
are primarily what everyone
would consider to be perversions

1122
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:10,720
of a very sacred practice.
And then more often than not,

1123
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:14,680
you know, from what I
understand, most practicing

1124
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:18,360
fundamentalists, especially
people who have actually entered

1125
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,400
in the principal, don't really
belong to any organized group.

1126
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:23,400
They're just independents living
on their own.

1127
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:26,600
You actually go into their
homes, you visit with them, you

1128
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:31,160
speak with them and you observe
their conditions generally and

1129
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:35,880
you're able to see that it's not
that different from any other

1130
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:38,160
family like.
We're we're.

1131
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:43,040
Making something way, way more
foreign than it actually is

1132
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:47,920
because they're I, I say we
because they're thinking about

1133
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:51,760
it as though it happened only in
the past.

1134
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:54,080
Only something that we can
understand through the past,

1135
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:57,280
through through these glasses
where we don't know what's going

1136
01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:59,680
on very well.
But it's right here.

1137
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:00,680
You know what I'm saying?
Yep.

1138
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:06,600
Yep, I do, I do.
All right, let's go ahead and

1139
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:12,160
let's let's move on here.
There's a whole other video I

1140
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:17,680
want to get to tonight.
Oh yeah, we got BYU professors.

1141
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,200
Yeah, No, we're going to do 2
more sections out of this.

1142
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:26,000
And then for the sake of time,
we're going to move on to to the

1143
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:28,760
other video.
Moving on, we have for many

1144
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:31,880
years some of the Saints were
asked to be in plural marriages

1145
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:34,280
and this is I think when it
starts to get a little bit

1146
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:37,040
interesting.
Oh it it hasn't been interesting

1147
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,400
so far.
Yeah, so far it's been.

1148
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:42,920
Just nothing, OK.
People outside the church did

1149
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,720
not like plural marriage.
They made laws against it.

1150
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,600
Some Saints, including church
leaders, were put in prison.

1151
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:51,120
But the Lord blessed the
families who obeyed His

1152
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:53,360
commandments even when it was
hard.

1153
01:12:55,480 --> 01:12:56,480
Can't leave that word.
Alone.

1154
01:12:56,480 --> 01:12:58,160
No, they're really doubling
down.

1155
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:06,200
I just can't.
Yeah.

1156
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:13,320
And you know, OK, Natasha, you
were mentioning this previously,

1157
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:17,720
but I've actually researched.
So my maternal grandmother,

1158
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:23,000
Karma Benson Parkinson, she's
cousins to former Mormon prophet

1159
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:26,280
Ashtab Benson.
She was the daughter of a third

1160
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:31,000
wife and there were 4 total
wives in my great grandfather.

1161
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:34,440
My great grandparents marriage
there ended up being 4 wives.

1162
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:39,000
My grandma Karma was the
daughter of of a third wife and

1163
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:44,400
I've studied the lives of the
four my 4 great grandmothers on

1164
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:49,560
my mom's side.
OK and this idea that the the

1165
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:53,800
Lord bless the families who
obeyed his commandments not

1166
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,760
true.
Not true in my case, not true.

1167
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:01,920
So as an example, after my great
grandpa had married two of the

1168
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:06,360
women, somehow he like, goes off
on a mission to Europe while

1169
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:10,240
he's got 2 wives and, you know,
kids at home and one of them was

1170
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:13,040
pregnant.
One of his wives, they were

1171
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:17,160
living in poverty, you know,
impoverished circumstances while

1172
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:22,080
he's gallivanting around Europe.
The second wife, if my memory is

1173
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:26,640
correct, loses the baby while
he's gone.

1174
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:31,320
So not only does the baby die,
but he's not even there when

1175
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:33,400
she's, you know, when she loses
the baby.

1176
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:37,800
Then when he moves on to his
third and 4th wives, it's not

1177
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:41,040
like he stayed connected to the
first two wives.

1178
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:44,640
It was like, OK, they're
established, she's older,

1179
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:47,320
they've got the nice house and
the kids are older.

1180
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:51,240
They can help out.
He moves on to the younger wives

1181
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:54,720
and stops coming around with the
older wives.

1182
01:14:55,360 --> 01:15:00,200
And then and then the fourth
wife who we brought on late, she

1183
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:03,480
ended up, you know, having
health problems.

1184
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:07,440
They ended up getting divorced.
It was this huge public scandal.

1185
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:13,480
She got addicted to opiates and
she ended up like, you know,

1186
01:15:13,480 --> 01:15:18,720
being run off to Oregon,
embarrassed in this, you know,

1187
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:26,120
Cash Valley wide scandal,
cursing her former husband and,

1188
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:30,040
you know, her, her involvement
in the Mormon church ever so

1189
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:34,560
just in my family's case, it was
a disaster for several of the

1190
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:39,600
families in many ways.
All right, Ben, go ahead.

1191
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:49,760
So yeah, this whole thing is
like, oh, here's a situation

1192
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:54,920
with plural marriage where
people experienced some level of

1193
01:15:54,920 --> 01:16:00,000
unhappiness, therefore it is
bad.

1194
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:05,120
It's like we don't apply that
standard to monogamy.

1195
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:07,960
I don't know, keep the feminists
another six months, They'll get

1196
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:09,760
there.
Well, yeah, I mean, and a lot of

1197
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:11,560
them do.
Some of the hardcore feminists

1198
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:18,280
do like they they do say like,
oh, look, there's this domestic

1199
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:20,600
violence thing.
There's this, there's that we we

1200
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:23,400
can't have any, any kind of
marriage at all.

1201
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,840
There, there are like there are,
there are, there's a strain of

1202
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,960
feminism that says that you're
not a true feminist if you

1203
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:38,480
aren't a lesbian.
But like, it's out there.

1204
01:16:38,480 --> 01:16:43,960
I know, I know it is.
But this is where they're

1205
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:49,000
they're going at it.
Like I know of monogamous

1206
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:55,080
couples where someone got
addicted to substances and it

1207
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:59,800
destroyed their their marriage.
I know monogamous marriages

1208
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:06,360
where husband was not attentive
to his wife and ignored her and

1209
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:13,320
went on to, you know, like there
are a lot of bad monogamous

1210
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:19,280
situations and like just be
consistent in your, your logic.

1211
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:24,080
If you can say, hey, here's a
bad situation, therefore it's

1212
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:27,080
bad for everyone.
Even if it's good for you, it's

1213
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:30,560
still bad for you because it was
bad for this person, right?

1214
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:33,800
Because that's what you're doing
with, with plural marriage.

1215
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:38,120
And like Mason was talking
about, like when people bring

1216
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:43,320
this up, I, I always say like,
OK, like how many plural, how

1217
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:44,880
many polygamous friends do you
have?

1218
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:49,760
Like, tell me what plural family
you have, like gone into their

1219
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:53,520
home and had dinner with, you
know, like tell me what plural

1220
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:55,480
family where you know the names
of their children.

1221
01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:59,200
Right.
You know, and because when you

1222
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:04,080
actually know people and you get
to see them, you see it's a

1223
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:08,800
different situation.
And yeah, there is a, there's a

1224
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:14,680
huge variety and there are,
there are abuses, but there's a

1225
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:18,680
lot of like really good, honest
people.

1226
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:23,600
And I'd, I'd say that that's
going to be the majority of the

1227
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:28,000
plural families that you're
going to meet is like pretty

1228
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:34,160
decent, shockingly normal people
who, who are doing this.

1229
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:38,560
And you know, like, and even if
you want to go historical, like

1230
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:42,800
Brigham Young, there were
marriages that didn't work out

1231
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:48,760
with him, but he also had wives
who sung his praises and spoke

1232
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:55,160
of how how much they loved him.
You know, like, if you if you

1233
01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:58,520
are actually like, oh, I want
the truth of it, you need to

1234
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:01,000
examine the things that go
against what you want.

1235
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:06,440
And in their case it is happy
polygamist who like their

1236
01:19:06,440 --> 01:19:09,600
situation.
Yep, they want those to not

1237
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:13,040
exist.
You know, you know, there's two

1238
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:16,360
names that they do not ever
bring up when it comes to

1239
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:20,440
criticizing plural marriage.
One of them is Eliza Arsenault

1240
01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:24,040
and the other is Martha Hughes
Canon.

1241
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:26,480
Are you familiar familiar with
Martha Hughes Canon?

1242
01:19:28,440 --> 01:19:33,400
I not, not really.
Well, I think I once you get

1243
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:38,160
going, I'll probably.
OK, Martha, this is, you know,

1244
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:41,600
I, I'm painting a picture on the
other side of the spectrum,

1245
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:44,680
right?
So again, we just got a, a, a

1246
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:49,960
sample of how it could go wrong.
Now I want to show you how just

1247
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:53,200
how oppressed poor Martha Hughes
Cannon was.

1248
01:19:54,960 --> 01:20:01,160
So she she was born in 1897,
lived, lived.

1249
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:03,640
Where'd it go?
No.

1250
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:06,640
Excuse me.
She was born in 1857 and she

1251
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:13,280
lived until 1932.
She was educated at the

1252
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:16,160
University of Utah, the
University of Michigan, the

1253
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:21,080
University of Pennsylvania.
She had a master's, an MDA

1254
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:30,440
bachelor's, and she was also on
the National School of looks

1255
01:20:30,440 --> 01:20:34,240
like or oratory.
So she was she had ABA in that

1256
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:36,720
as well.
And she was a polygamous wife to

1257
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:39,600
Angus M Young.
Here's where it gets impressive.

1258
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:45,040
She is the first woman to serve
in the United States State

1259
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:46,800
Senate.
She was elected in Utah as a

1260
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:52,000
state senator.
And this is how abused she was.

1261
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:59,320
Ben, the, the guy she beat for
the Senate seat was her husband.

1262
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:05,440
It was her husband who was the
state president, state president

1263
01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:09,880
at the time of the Salt Lake
Stake, you know, downtown, right

1264
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:14,640
where everything was.
She was so oppressed that that

1265
01:21:14,640 --> 01:21:19,040
she felt like she could
challenge her own husband in a

1266
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:25,680
electoral race and then wins and
then stays stays married to him.

1267
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:31,680
Yeah, which I would have loved
to like be at that dinner table

1268
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,240
like.
There's one I like.

1269
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:39,840
The one I wanted to be at was
like, after he lost, you know,

1270
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:43,840
his boys, all his buddies at
church were like, what's the

1271
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:46,760
matter, Angus can't get your
house in order, right?

1272
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:49,800
I mean, probably just gave it to
him hard in a fun way.

1273
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:53,760
But, you know, really, really
let him kind of have it there a

1274
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:57,080
little bit.
But my point in showing that is

1275
01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:00,160
that they're they're you can
pick extremes on both sides,

1276
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:03,200
right?
And then in the middle is where

1277
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:04,520
everyone is.
And guess what?

1278
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:08,080
Just like most marriages, it's
it ebbs and flows, right?

1279
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:10,720
There are good times, there are
bad times, but you stick it out

1280
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:14,000
'cause you're married, right?
Are there bad?

1281
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:16,240
Are there bad husbands in plural
marriage?

1282
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:19,160
Damn straight.
Are there bad husbands and

1283
01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:21,640
monogamous, monogamous
marriages?

1284
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,400
Damn straight.
Bad wives in polygamy?

1285
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:26,720
Yep.
Bad wives in monogamy.

1286
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:31,720
Yep, it's a human deal, right?
This is not a problem with the

1287
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:35,200
principal.
This is a problem with guys who

1288
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:38,120
either take on more than they
can handle, right?

1289
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:42,320
And let's be clear, Joseph Ann
Brigham both said plural

1290
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:45,360
marriage will damn more men than
it saves, right?

1291
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:49,880
Because it is hard, it's
rewarding, it's a great way of

1292
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:52,600
life, but it it takes a lot of
work.

1293
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:57,360
And because somebody else
couldn't hack it is not a reason

1294
01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:00,200
to not apply the principle,
right?

1295
01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:05,440
It's, it's simply how things
went in that marriage at that

1296
01:23:05,440 --> 01:23:09,240
time, in that circumstance, No
more, no less.

1297
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:14,080
You cannot indict the the
principle of celestial plural

1298
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:19,400
marriage based off of even half,
let's just say half the accounts

1299
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:23,000
were bad.
OK, You can't, you can't indict

1300
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:26,360
the whole system for that.
You just have to say, well,

1301
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:29,120
yeah, we kind of knew going in,
based off what Joseph and

1302
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:31,200
Brigham said, this was going to
be a tough thing and this was

1303
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:35,200
going to kind of kind of, you
know, weed some guys out, so to

1304
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:37,280
speak, right?
Weed, weed some people out.

1305
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:42,400
And and that's just what it is.
Well, and you know what, this

1306
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:48,800
can be like a really sensitive
area where like people bring

1307
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:52,120
their own experiences and their
own emotions to things.

1308
01:23:52,200 --> 01:24:02,040
And so like if you have, if if
you have are a woman who's been

1309
01:24:02,040 --> 01:24:05,960
abused before or if someone you
love has been.

1310
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,000
And that's something that you're
like close to and sensitive

1311
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:13,360
about when you hear people say,
oh, well, but there are all

1312
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:16,800
these good experiences,
something you might feel like

1313
01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:20,400
that's being brushed aside or
minimized or whatever.

1314
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:27,520
And you know, like it's a
difficult thing because like, if

1315
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:31,560
we are being analytical and we
are just looking at it like we

1316
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:35,440
have to honestly say there's a
lot of both, you know, and just

1317
01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:40,000
because like there was someone
who's really successful and did

1318
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:43,960
it really well, that doesn't
mean like the person who went

1319
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:47,360
through some horrifying evil
experience, doesn't mean that

1320
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:49,600
that didn't really happen to
them and that it wasn't really

1321
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:52,280
terrible.
And you know, that there, there

1322
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:56,760
weren't these issues with it.
It just means like, if we're

1323
01:24:56,760 --> 01:25:01,080
looking at the full story, we,
we got to look at the full

1324
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:03,400
story.
And the other thing is that like

1325
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:08,120
happy marriages are kind of
boring.

1326
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:13,680
You know, like not a, not a lot.
Like it doesn't make the news,

1327
01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:17,480
you know, like you you never
here like on the 9 O clock news

1328
01:25:17,480 --> 01:25:20,120
like oh, OK.
Well, this, this couple, you

1329
01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:22,320
know, they just, they like each
other.

1330
01:25:22,840 --> 01:25:26,680
And.
You know, like, there's again,

1331
01:25:27,160 --> 01:25:31,520
you know, like, you know,
Florida man appears to be quite

1332
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:34,280
happy with his wife, you know,
like.

1333
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:36,800
Nope, that's not.
Let's talk about Florida man's

1334
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:43,240
ever up to so like people just
aren't that.

1335
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:45,240
That isn't shocking.
It's not interesting.

1336
01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:49,240
Like, so if I tell you, well,
here's my friend who has three

1337
01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:54,360
wives and a bunch of kids and
they get along really well.

1338
01:25:54,960 --> 01:26:00,520
There's very seldom arguments or
or fighting like they they're

1339
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:03,800
really happy people.
It's like, well, I can't make

1340
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:06,800
like a a Netflix documentary
about that.

1341
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:09,280
Like.
That's kind of boring.

1342
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:13,320
Yep, Yep, absolutely,
absolutely, Mason.

1343
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:17,000
What do you got bud?
You know, I think, I think

1344
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:19,800
pretty much anything, everything
was touched on generally there.

1345
01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:23,000
Perfect.
All right, let's go to the last

1346
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:26,320
part of this video I want to
cover before we move on to the

1347
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:29,280
other one.
The Elizabeth Smart example.

1348
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:34,040
OK, he's asking right here if
this counts as grooming, so let

1349
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:37,640
me back up just a little bit.
Yes, absolutely.

1350
01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:40,320
So even the examples that you're
showing, like the Elizabeth

1351
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:46,120
Smart example, the the recent
example, just what's being shown

1352
01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:50,360
on this cartoon, what was
happening before, and even our,

1353
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:55,920
our conversation about not being
able to challenge LDS leaders

1354
01:26:56,240 --> 01:26:59,240
because it's so interesting with
the Sam Young and with my case

1355
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:02,520
in particular, I think, well,
many cases, it's not so much

1356
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:06,640
that we denounced like Mormon
theology or that we denounced

1357
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:10,200
our testimonies.
We were denouncing policy and

1358
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:12,680
policy was going against the
leaders.

1359
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:16,240
And so in both I think my
apostasy charge and also Sam

1360
01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:20,200
Young's apostasy charge, it was
very much this idea that you're

1361
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:25,280
going against church leaders,
which I'm like, yeah, isn't that

1362
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:27,640
part of sustaining church
leaders when you know that

1363
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:30,960
they're making huge mistakes
saying there's a problem?

1364
01:27:32,080 --> 01:27:35,120
But they didn't buy that that
was that was not an OK enough

1365
01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:35,840
reason.
So.

1366
01:27:35,880 --> 01:27:38,040
They were still caught up on you
calling them a patriarchal

1367
01:27:38,040 --> 01:27:39,000
prick.
That too.

1368
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:42,880
Yeah, that really, that really.
Yeah, that really pricked them

1369
01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:48,760
anyway, So, but, but this idea
of grooming, so again, going

1370
01:27:48,760 --> 01:27:52,000
back to Rain's definition and
the patterns that they say, one

1371
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:56,000
of the patterns of grooming is
that you're gaining access and

1372
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:59,600
isolation of the victim.
And what you're describing just

1373
01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:04,840
in a church interview where a
Bishop is going to ask sexually

1374
01:28:04,840 --> 01:28:08,800
inappropriate questions, that
fits that grooming criteria to

1375
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:15,160
the T, to the T, you now have
access to a vulnerable person.

1376
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:18,240
And you know, I think many
bishops don't take advantage of

1377
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:20,800
that.
Many bishops have and other

1378
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,640
people who will mimic those
types of meetings as well.

1379
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:25,880
And so you have a huge problem
there.

1380
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:30,360
I also want to say that over 90%
of sexual assault happens with

1381
01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:33,240
people that we know.
So that's another thing is that

1382
01:28:33,240 --> 01:28:36,680
grooming requires for the person
to have trust.

1383
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:39,800
And this is what the church is
saying, trust us, trust the

1384
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:43,800
Lord, trust Joseph Smith, trust
your Bishop, trust the young

1385
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:47,360
men's leader, trust the young
women's leader, trust them over

1386
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:51,120
yourself time and time again.
So now we have this trust issue,

1387
01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:54,680
this gaining access issue.
Now there's victim selection,

1388
01:28:54,760 --> 01:28:56,680
right?
So how do groomers and

1389
01:28:56,680 --> 01:28:58,760
perpetrators usually select
victims?

1390
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:02,640
They're usually vulnerable.
They're usually maybe got some

1391
01:29:02,640 --> 01:29:06,880
type of developmental issue or
emotional issue where that makes

1392
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:09,360
them more vulnerable victim than
others.

1393
01:29:10,080 --> 01:29:13,720
So when I think about a 14 year
old in Joseph Smith's home who's

1394
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:17,480
actually dependent on her living
and eating and ability to

1395
01:29:17,480 --> 01:29:20,520
survive on this family, who's
taking care of her or.

1396
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:21,840
Foster children.
That is whose?

1397
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:25,360
Parents have died.
So now we're looking at very

1398
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:28,920
vulnerable victims, right?
And so you just, and then

1399
01:29:28,920 --> 01:29:31,560
desensitization.
This is what's happening in this

1400
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:35,040
cartoon.
It's desensitizing a problematic

1401
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:38,720
thing, which again, I'm
realizing so many years later

1402
01:29:38,720 --> 01:29:42,200
that this is what happened to me
for years, for years as an LDS

1403
01:29:42,200 --> 01:29:47,200
member, I would have said many
things to defend the church in

1404
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:50,880
this particular situation.
What I'm realizing now is that I

1405
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:54,720
was being desensitized to my own
discomfort because again,

1406
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:57,200
Natasha, your discomfort is
prideful.

1407
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:01,400
It's egotistical.
It's influenced by the world.

1408
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:05,960
So you have to ignore those
discomfort, uncomfortable

1409
01:30:05,960 --> 01:30:11,480
feelings and instead be humble
and go along with and say yes

1410
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:15,440
even when you want to say no.
So these are grimy tactics.

1411
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:19,400
One O 1.
And then the the last point that

1412
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:24,320
they make is they attempt to
make their behavior seem natural

1413
01:30:24,440 --> 01:30:27,040
to avoid raising suspicion.
Well, what is this cartoon

1414
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:29,240
doing?
More than anything, it's making

1415
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:31,680
it natural.
Sometimes this happens

1416
01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:34,200
sometimes.
Sometimes God just wants you to

1417
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:36,280
totally ignore your bodily
autonomy.

1418
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:40,280
That's sometimes what is going
to happen and that is

1419
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:43,160
normalizing.
Sometimes God's gonna want.

1420
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:48,480
That right and and desensitizing
behavior that is absolutely

1421
01:30:48,480 --> 01:30:51,640
atrocious and abusive and making
it normal.

1422
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:54,680
Yeah.
So thank you, Church of Jesus

1423
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:58,800
Christ of Latter Day Saints, for
making sexual assault normal and

1424
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:00,880
blaming God on top of it.
Shame on you.

1425
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:02,840
Four children.
Two children.

1426
01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:05,320
Shame on you.
Yeah, yeah.

1427
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:11,440
Well, we've got some cartoons of
sort of satirical responses.

1428
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:16,560
All right, Ben, go ahead.
Yeah.

1429
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:23,000
All right.
So the first thing, like she is

1430
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:30,800
100% correct about the 1st, not
everything, but the first point

1431
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:36,040
that she makes is that the
overwhelming majority of sexual

1432
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:43,000
assault, it happens because from
someone that you trust, that's

1433
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:47,000
the case with like, I'm pretty
confident that's the case with

1434
01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:51,600
violent crimes in general.
You know, like, you know,

1435
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:57,760
someone said that, you know,
most murders are not committed

1436
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:02,200
by well trained assassins.
It's by friends and family, you

1437
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:05,960
know that that do that and you
know, it's true.

1438
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:13,760
So like that is a thing that
people should be aware of the

1439
01:32:14,040 --> 01:32:19,640
the guy who's going to jump out
from behind the Bush and snatch

1440
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:24,040
you.
That's extremely rare.

1441
01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:27,640
A very very tiny portion of
assaults.

1442
01:32:27,640 --> 01:32:32,960
Like it is usually the case that
someone is exploiting a position

1443
01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:39,760
of trust.
Now that does It does not follow

1444
01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:48,080
that everyone who has a position
of trust has it for nefarious

1445
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:52,360
purposes.
Like there's a lot of very

1446
01:32:52,360 --> 01:32:57,480
legitimate reasons for people to
trust one another.

1447
01:32:58,240 --> 01:33:04,320
You know, parents need to have
the trust of their children,

1448
01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:08,400
like good parents who love their
kids and take care of them.

1449
01:33:08,840 --> 01:33:14,640
Like that's, that's trust.
Like the reason I can get my, my

1450
01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:17,920
daughter to brush her teeth even
though she's 3 and she doesn't

1451
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:24,160
want to, is because she trusts
me, you know, like, and I'm

1452
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:27,280
using that trust to get her to
brush her teeth.

1453
01:33:29,120 --> 01:33:35,960
So like, it isn't, you know, we
shouldn't, we should be aware,

1454
01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:40,120
you know, we should watch if
someone is who is trusted is

1455
01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:41,800
doing something that doesn't
look right.

1456
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:44,400
You know, you should trust your
guts on that and all that.

1457
01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:49,560
But you shouldn't just say like,
oh, that person appears

1458
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:51,640
trustworthy.
He must be up to no good.

1459
01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:57,720
So yeah.
That was my you.

1460
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:01,160
Go ahead.
So here, here's the issue I had.

1461
01:34:01,520 --> 01:34:07,400
First, the woman who was talking
there, Natasha Helfer, she was

1462
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:12,200
excommunicated for she's a sex
sex therapist by by profession,

1463
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:15,680
right?
If she was excommunicated for a

1464
01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:18,600
number of reasons, one of those
being her stance that gay

1465
01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:21,240
marriage should should be a
thing in the church, right?

1466
01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:22,760
Right.
She was.

1467
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:26,240
She was all for that.
So that does go against the

1468
01:34:26,240 --> 01:34:28,480
doctrine which she says.
So.

1469
01:34:28,720 --> 01:34:33,040
But here's the thing, and and I
think this is a big tale here.

1470
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:38,080
Do you notice about half of what
she said was about her in that

1471
01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:42,200
in that little blurp, right?
That had nothing to do a lot of

1472
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:44,400
it with anything that they were
talking about.

1473
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:49,040
Maybe a little bit of a
grievance seeker, I don't know.

1474
01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:54,440
But anyway, again, that's on
brand for for this particular

1475
01:34:54,440 --> 01:34:59,040
podcast, right?
And so it was all about her.

1476
01:34:59,840 --> 01:35:04,000
The other thing I would say,
them telling the church that

1477
01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:07,520
they are, you know, them saying
that the church is using this to

1478
01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:11,840
groom their youth is laughable
when many of the people that

1479
01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:15,960
have been on that particular
podcast that I just referenced

1480
01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:21,520
and maybe even the host himself.
You've had some allegations that

1481
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:25,920
look credible.
Well, that and I think, I think,

1482
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:28,400
don't quote me, I've been
looking at for this all day and

1483
01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:30,760
I haven't been able to find one
way or another.

1484
01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:32,560
It's kind of leaning towards
this direction.

1485
01:35:32,560 --> 01:35:36,040
But I think they're all about
being OK with taking your kids

1486
01:35:36,040 --> 01:35:39,600
to a pride parade, right?
I think they're OK with medical

1487
01:35:39,600 --> 01:35:44,320
transitioning your child, right?
So who's the groomer here?

1488
01:35:45,200 --> 01:35:47,240
Right?
Let's, let's get real.

1489
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:49,560
If, if we want to go down this
road, we can.

1490
01:35:49,560 --> 01:35:54,760
But I promise you're going to
lose on this one because 100%.

1491
01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:57,280
Have there been, has there been
abuse in the LDS church?

1492
01:35:57,480 --> 01:35:59,200
You bet.
You bet.

1493
01:35:59,440 --> 01:36:01,160
Has there been abuse in
fundamentalism?

1494
01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:06,080
Absolutely.
However, and if you want to talk

1495
01:36:06,080 --> 01:36:08,680
raw numbers, I think it's, you
know, we can have that

1496
01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:12,680
discussion about kind of the
left-leaning LGBTQ movement

1497
01:36:12,680 --> 01:36:17,720
along with with the, the, the
trans community.

1498
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:21,840
There's way more grooming going
on that side than there is here.

1499
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:27,120
I don't see anything in what was
presented by the church in any

1500
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:31,400
way whatsoever as a grooming.
In fact, to me it takes steps to

1501
01:36:31,400 --> 01:36:34,640
make sure that doesn't happen by
coming out in the last part and

1502
01:36:34,640 --> 01:36:39,800
saying we no longer practice
plural marriage right in the SO

1503
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:43,840
to make the claim that this is
grooming is laughable given who

1504
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:47,440
it's coming from, as well as
just patently false.

1505
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:52,600
And you have to be, I can't even
say you're mistaken.

1506
01:36:52,600 --> 01:36:57,360
You have to kind of be wanting
to say something false to a

1507
01:36:57,600 --> 01:37:02,120
tribute grooming to this thing.
Well, and they're, they're

1508
01:37:02,120 --> 01:37:08,240
exploiting like traumatized
people because you know, like,

1509
01:37:08,240 --> 01:37:12,080
if this is something that you're
close to where you've either

1510
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:17,320
experienced an assault yourself
or like someone that you love

1511
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:21,360
and and care for has that's
going to be something really

1512
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:25,280
sensitive.
So if you can kind of tie

1513
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:30,680
whatever the church is doing
into that, it kind of lowers

1514
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:34,520
like your critical thinking
because now you're, you're

1515
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:41,400
dealing with the emotions of
fear of anger, of sadness, like

1516
01:37:41,400 --> 01:37:45,880
because you're hooking into this
like emotionally triggering

1517
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:51,600
topic, which a lot of people
have some kind of, I think

1518
01:37:51,840 --> 01:37:54,560
almost everyone, if you haven't
experienced something like that,

1519
01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:56,360
someone you care about probably
has.

1520
01:37:58,080 --> 01:38:03,880
And so that's going to override
like your critical thinking and

1521
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:07,520
and then you're just going to be
feeling all this rage and, and

1522
01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:13,400
anger towards the church.
It isn't grooming like just

1523
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:17,840
because like there are like
there are nefarious people who

1524
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:23,360
can exploit your beliefs in
order to harm you and take

1525
01:38:23,360 --> 01:38:26,240
advantage of you.
And that is a concern that

1526
01:38:26,240 --> 01:38:32,040
people should care about.
But because a belief can be

1527
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:38,680
exploited does not mean that
that's the purpose of that

1528
01:38:38,680 --> 01:38:42,120
belief and that that's like what
it does.

1529
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:48,680
So teaching children, hey,
here's like a basic introductory

1530
01:38:50,520 --> 01:38:55,880
explanation of plural marriage.
This was hard for people to do,

1531
01:38:55,880 --> 01:38:58,040
blah, blah, blah.
We don't do it anymore.

1532
01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:02,360
But this is what happened at a
very basic level.

1533
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:08,080
Like no, like that.
No, it's not, It's not grooming.

1534
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:12,760
It's not, you know, and that
it's still not grooming.

1535
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:18,320
Even if there's a scenario where
like some creepy dude takes

1536
01:39:18,320 --> 01:39:24,440
advantage of someone and tries
to use plural marriage to, to

1537
01:39:24,440 --> 01:39:31,120
make it OK, like that's wrong,
should be punished, all that,

1538
01:39:33,440 --> 01:39:36,000
but that's, that's not, it's
just not what's going on here.

1539
01:39:36,080 --> 01:39:38,640
And I, I think this is extremely
manipulative.

1540
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:46,160
And also like the existence of a
power dynamic does not mean that

1541
01:39:47,120 --> 01:39:50,640
people have been harmed.
Like power dynamics exist in

1542
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:54,480
nature and they can be
exploited.

1543
01:39:55,120 --> 01:40:00,360
And so we should be watchful and
careful, but like I'm.

1544
01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:05,800
Bigger and stronger and taller
than my wife is like I am by

1545
01:40:05,800 --> 01:40:09,240
nature.
If I wanted to, I could use that

1546
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:13,000
to hurt her.
Like that is something that is

1547
01:40:13,000 --> 01:40:16,080
physically possible there.
That is a power dynamic.

1548
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:21,920
It's not bad because I don't.
I use that like that's something

1549
01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:24,800
that she actually quite likes,
that I'm taller and stronger

1550
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:27,240
than her.
You know, it's one of the things

1551
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:33,400
that she enjoys about me.
So because I use that to serve

1552
01:40:33,400 --> 01:40:38,120
her and to benefit her.
And so it isn't like automatic,

1553
01:40:38,120 --> 01:40:40,840
like we shouldn't just like, oh,
let's abolish all power

1554
01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:44,320
dynamics.
It's like, well, no, be aware.

1555
01:40:44,320 --> 01:40:48,120
They can be exploited.
But like, that doesn't mean they

1556
01:40:48,120 --> 01:40:51,240
shouldn't exist, or that it
would even be possible for them

1557
01:40:51,240 --> 01:40:54,200
not to.
Mason, anything you want to add

1558
01:40:54,200 --> 01:40:57,720
to this before we move on?
I get the feeling that the

1559
01:40:57,720 --> 01:41:02,240
church does have a problem with
sexual abuse, but that has like

1560
01:41:02,240 --> 01:41:05,320
no bearing on the conversation
that they're having.

1561
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:09,480
They're talking about the church
teaching its history, which is

1562
01:41:09,480 --> 01:41:12,600
something that from the very
beginning of this podcast, I

1563
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:17,200
pointed out is something that
they ostensibly want the church

1564
01:41:17,200 --> 01:41:19,720
to be doing.
They say, oh, the church needs

1565
01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:21,640
to be more transparent with its
history.

1566
01:41:21,680 --> 01:41:24,720
They say that people convert in
ignorance.

1567
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:28,760
They don't know anything about
Joseph Smith and or his life.

1568
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:32,160
And as a missionary or as a
former missionary, I tend to

1569
01:41:32,400 --> 01:41:34,480
agree with that.
But now that the church is

1570
01:41:34,480 --> 01:41:38,560
taking steps in that direction
of actually educating the youth

1571
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:42,360
and trying to be more forthright
with what happened there,

1572
01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:47,320
pulling on other things that are
going wrong in the church right

1573
01:41:47,320 --> 01:41:50,520
now.
Like if if you genuinely want

1574
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:53,920
the church to be better as an
institution, which I think the

1575
01:41:53,920 --> 01:41:57,600
three of us do, you have to give
them props where props are due.

1576
01:41:58,080 --> 01:42:00,600
They're doing better at telling
the history as it actually

1577
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:05,440
happened.
Obviously it's simplified

1578
01:42:05,440 --> 01:42:08,080
because it's too young audience.
Of course they're not going to

1579
01:42:08,080 --> 01:42:14,240
get crazy in detail, but props
where props reduce still, you

1580
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:18,240
know what I mean?
It it just, it has no bearing on

1581
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:21,520
the conversation to say that the
church has a sex abuse problem

1582
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:25,280
or to to talk about grooming
because this, this has nothing

1583
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:29,240
to do with grooming.
It's just complying with what

1584
01:42:29,240 --> 01:42:32,280
needs to be done.
And you know, yeah.

1585
01:42:32,360 --> 01:42:35,080
And and to go along with that, I
guarantee you that this was

1586
01:42:35,080 --> 01:42:39,160
probably put together because a
survey was taken by the church

1587
01:42:39,200 --> 01:42:43,040
and some, you know, there was
enough people that said, hey, we

1588
01:42:43,040 --> 01:42:46,040
feel like you're hiding stuff.
And so they said, well, then

1589
01:42:46,040 --> 01:42:48,200
we'll, we'll get more forward
with it, right.

1590
01:42:49,360 --> 01:42:51,680
I don't think the church has
I'll intent in this.

1591
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:54,560
I I just think they're trying to
maybe do the best they can with

1592
01:42:54,560 --> 01:42:58,080
what they got.
And I, I think this speaks to

1593
01:42:58,080 --> 01:43:04,440
the larger narrative here of
this, like there is nothing that

1594
01:43:04,440 --> 01:43:08,880
the church or Mormons at large
will ever be able to do other

1595
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:13,960
than disavow the faith that will
make this side of the argument

1596
01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:15,640
happy, right?
Yeah, and.

1597
01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:17,560
That's it.
That's what they want.

1598
01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:21,760
They don't, you know it.
It's almost like because I've

1599
01:43:21,760 --> 01:43:25,520
heard, I've heard this come from
from this particular podcast

1600
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:28,240
several times where they said,
well, gosh, we just want the

1601
01:43:28,240 --> 01:43:31,960
church to get better.
So what?

1602
01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:34,840
What are you saying we need to
like paint a few more buildings?

1603
01:43:34,840 --> 01:43:37,120
No, just take a can of gasoline
and some matches to it.

1604
01:43:37,120 --> 01:43:39,120
That'll make it better, right?
Yeah.

1605
01:43:40,400 --> 01:43:41,800
Go ahead.
Well, and, and like you

1606
01:43:41,800 --> 01:43:45,800
mentioned the Community of
Christ earlier, they've made

1607
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:50,280
every single change that every
one of these critics have

1608
01:43:50,280 --> 01:43:54,720
levelled at the church and they
don't go there, you know, like

1609
01:43:54,720 --> 01:43:57,320
they, they, they, when they
leave the LDS church, they don't

1610
01:43:57,320 --> 01:44:02,560
say, OK, well, what I want is a
Mormonism that's friendly to

1611
01:44:02,760 --> 01:44:09,560
LGBTQ, that is progressive, that
ordains women Da, da, da, da, da

1612
01:44:09,680 --> 01:44:14,400
doesn't have, you know, the
issues that you have with the

1613
01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:18,920
temple, whatever the case
doesn't endorse, like the

1614
01:44:18,960 --> 01:44:22,560
historicity of the Book of
Mormon, all these issues that

1615
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:25,560
they've got, guess what?
You can go right over to the

1616
01:44:25,560 --> 01:44:28,880
community of Christ.
They they've never taught

1617
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:31,520
polygamy.
Like you can go right there,

1618
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:33,480
they'll welcome you with open
arms.

1619
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:36,440
They're generally friendly
people from my experience.

1620
01:44:38,200 --> 01:44:41,240
But these people don't go there
because that isn't what they

1621
01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:44,040
want.
They're just angry that the

1622
01:44:44,040 --> 01:44:49,760
church exists.
Like they want to destroy what

1623
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:53,360
they don't like.
They're not interested in

1624
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:58,600
finding what they do like.
Yeah, no, I agree.

1625
01:44:59,000 --> 01:45:03,000
I agree.
All right, let's go ahead and

1626
01:45:03,000 --> 01:45:09,000
let's move on to the other video
because I feel like it's going

1627
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:13,640
to be just as good here.
Probably won't take nearly as

1628
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:19,480
long to break this one down, but
I do believe it's worth worth

1629
01:45:19,480 --> 01:45:20,440
talking.
Oh yeah.

1630
01:45:22,080 --> 01:45:24,840
All right, so.
I might have a different take on

1631
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:28,200
this than you.
OK, All right, We'll we'll this

1632
01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:29,840
will be good then.
OK, here we go.

1633
01:45:30,920 --> 01:45:32,800
Hello everyone, and welcome to
another edition of Mormon

1634
01:45:32,800 --> 01:45:34,800
Stories podcast.
I'm your host, John Delin.

1635
01:45:34,800 --> 01:45:39,720
It is January 6th, 2025, Happy
New Year.

1636
01:45:40,320 --> 01:45:46,320
And today we are going to be
covering an episode that the

1637
01:45:46,320 --> 01:45:48,640
thumbnail basically says
Harvard's Clark Gilbert

1638
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:56,280
terrorizes BYU professors.
The real impetus for this this

1639
01:45:56,280 --> 01:46:01,520
episode comes from a Salt Lake
Tribune article that dropped

1640
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:05,480
just over the weekend.
The Salt Lake Tribune article

1641
01:46:05,480 --> 01:46:11,400
says dark days, new rules have
BYU professors running scared.

1642
01:46:12,080 --> 01:46:15,400
Clark Gilbert, the Mormon
Church's education commissioner,

1643
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:18,840
is determined to have faculty
members who support the faith's

1644
01:46:18,840 --> 01:46:23,680
teachings, or at least how his
office interprets those

1645
01:46:23,680 --> 01:46:27,560
teachings.
So, you know, as someone who

1646
01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:31,680
attended BYU, as someone who
felt like he got a really good

1647
01:46:31,680 --> 01:46:38,960
education at BYUI, met my wife
Margie, at BYUI, I've

1648
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:42,640
historically been someone who's
cared pretty deeply about BYU

1649
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:49,160
and, and its progress.
And so I think this is an

1650
01:46:49,200 --> 01:46:52,600
important topic to cover.
What I'm basically going to be

1651
01:46:52,600 --> 01:46:56,720
going to be doing today is doing
a combination of reading the

1652
01:46:56,720 --> 01:47:01,760
Salt Lake Tribune article and
also I'm playing some clips and

1653
01:47:01,760 --> 01:47:06,920
also sharing some comments that
we've been able to cull off the

1654
01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:13,200
Internet and, and some personal
comments that have been sent to

1655
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:16,320
me as well.
I'm going to ask Julie and Maven

1656
01:47:16,320 --> 01:47:19,440
to please star.
We want we want to welcome our

1657
01:47:19,440 --> 01:47:26,080
live audience and any really
good stories or comments or

1658
01:47:26,080 --> 01:47:30,960
questions that are shared in the
live stream either on Facebook

1659
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:32,680
or on YouTube.
I'm going to ask Julie and

1660
01:47:32,680 --> 01:47:36,280
Maven.
OK, just to give some of you a

1661
01:47:36,280 --> 01:47:38,920
sense for who this Clark Gilbert
person is.

1662
01:47:39,520 --> 01:47:46,400
This is from Clark Gilbert's bio
on the LDS Church's website.

1663
01:47:46,400 --> 01:47:49,040
It basically says Clark G
Gilbert was sustained as a

1664
01:47:49,040 --> 01:47:56,320
General Authority 70 of the LDS
Church in April 3rd, 2021.

1665
01:47:57,120 --> 01:48:00,080
As far as his church service
goes, Clark G Gilbert was

1666
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:04,200
sustained to General Authority
70 again in April 3rd, 2021.

1667
01:48:04,200 --> 01:48:06,960
He currently serves as the
Commissioner of the Church

1668
01:48:06,960 --> 01:48:10,320
Education System.
At the time of his call, he had

1669
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:13,520
been serving as an Area 70 in
the Utah area.

1670
01:48:14,480 --> 01:48:17,200
Elder Clark Gilbert has served
in a number of church colleagues

1671
01:48:17,200 --> 01:48:21,200
including full time missionary
in Japan, Kobe Mission Elders

1672
01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:23,960
Corn president, counselor, stake
presidency and Bishop.

1673
01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:28,640
For those who don't know, the
church education system is the

1674
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:32,240
organization in the Mormon
church that overseas Brigham

1675
01:48:32,240 --> 01:48:35,120
Young University in Provo,
Brigham Young University,

1676
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:38,120
Hawaii, Brigham Young
University, Idaho, which.

1677
01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:42,000
OK, I'm now I'm going to go on
to where he reads the article.

1678
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:45,920
Dark days, New rules at BYU.
Yeah.

1679
01:48:47,600 --> 01:48:50,240
That the popular Apostles
uncharacteristically harsh

1680
01:48:50,240 --> 01:48:53,760
rhetoric was an omen of the next
three years under Gilbert's

1681
01:48:53,760 --> 01:48:57,000
leadership.
Yet Bergman felt a growing

1682
01:48:57,000 --> 01:49:00,000
unease.
Bergman, who had been teaching

1683
01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:04,640
trumpet at a prestigious Texas
university in 2018 when BYU

1684
01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:09,040
recruited him, bristled at the
increasing clampdown on LGBTQ

1685
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:13,600
plus activism he saw on BYU
campus, which eventually would

1686
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:18,280
include shutting down Y mountain
to rainbow colors.

1687
01:49:18,760 --> 01:49:24,640
So for those of you who don't
know, BYU has this big, huge

1688
01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:30,440
letter, white letter Y, that's
up on the side of a mountain

1689
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:33,840
right there, very prominently
displayed on BYU campus.

1690
01:49:34,440 --> 01:49:38,840
And over the years, LGBTQ
students and allies have found

1691
01:49:38,840 --> 01:49:44,960
different ways to either paint
or project rainbow colors on to

1692
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:48,080
that big why?
Just to just show their support

1693
01:49:48,080 --> 01:49:53,880
for LGBTQ people at BYU.
And it's been a long standing

1694
01:49:53,880 --> 01:49:57,040
controversy.
And you know that's.

1695
01:49:57,040 --> 01:49:59,080
What they're just staying for
private property that's.

1696
01:50:00,520 --> 01:50:04,520
What's being talked about there,
it goes on to say.

1697
01:50:04,520 --> 01:50:07,920
And the denial of racism and
misogyny that still existed.

1698
01:50:08,480 --> 01:50:12,240
So basically some of the main
cultural points that we're

1699
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:16,480
talking about with all this
cultural controversy are, you

1700
01:50:16,480 --> 01:50:20,840
know, racism the way the church
treat teaches about people of

1701
01:50:20,840 --> 01:50:22,800
color and treats people of
color.

1702
01:50:23,080 --> 01:50:27,360
The way the Mormon church treats
women and how to use feminism

1703
01:50:27,360 --> 01:50:31,680
and the teachings about Mother
in Heaven and how how it treats

1704
01:50:32,760 --> 01:50:37,560
teaches its members and its
doctrine around LGBT, gay,

1705
01:50:37,560 --> 01:50:39,640
lesbian, transgender individuals
as well.

1706
01:50:39,640 --> 01:50:45,520
Those are three of kind of the
main Mormon teachings or

1707
01:50:45,520 --> 01:50:49,560
doctrines or pieces of theology
that are that are prominently

1708
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:54,200
featured in sort of these
cultural clashes at BYU, Bergman

1709
01:50:54,200 --> 01:50:57,040
writes.
Quote, I had LGBTQ students and

1710
01:50:57,040 --> 01:50:59,800
saw how they suffered.
I started to pay attention to

1711
01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:01,760
how people of color and women
were treated.

1712
01:51:02,080 --> 01:51:04,280
It was and continues to be hard
for them.

1713
01:51:05,520 --> 01:51:10,360
Then in 2022 came a new
employment contract, a sort of

1714
01:51:10,360 --> 01:51:14,600
loyalty oath in which faculty
members incoming in current were

1715
01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:18,320
expected to attest to their
support of the Mormon Church's

1716
01:51:18,320 --> 01:51:20,280
position on marriage, family and
gender.

1717
01:51:20,640 --> 01:51:24,320
Too many, like Bergman, who felt
pressured to agree it went

1718
01:51:24,320 --> 01:51:27,080
beyond the church's own stance
and seemed to carry an implicit

1719
01:51:27,080 --> 01:51:30,160
threat.
You can't advance if you don't

1720
01:51:30,400 --> 01:51:32,920
sign off.
So that's disturbing to a lot of

1721
01:51:32,920 --> 01:51:38,320
people that you know.
OK, we'll stop right there.

1722
01:51:38,320 --> 01:51:41,160
That's enough of that.
So basically here it is.

1723
01:51:42,280 --> 01:51:46,160
The LDS Church has finally, in
my opinion, and this is a good

1724
01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:49,760
thing, has come out and
basically said, look, there's

1725
01:51:49,760 --> 01:51:52,160
certain things we're not going
to allow the professors to get

1726
01:51:52,160 --> 01:51:54,520
away with anymore.
They're going to kind of toe the

1727
01:51:54,520 --> 01:51:59,480
the line a little bit here as
far as as, you know, lining up

1728
01:51:59,480 --> 01:52:03,440
with with LDS teachings.
Now I want to say this

1729
01:52:03,440 --> 01:52:07,600
obviously, Ben, that's going to
maybe be a a little bit of a

1730
01:52:07,600 --> 01:52:11,440
problem for guys like you and I
in the sense of their, you know,

1731
01:52:11,440 --> 01:52:15,440
when it comes to the the study
of our religion, you're not

1732
01:52:15,440 --> 01:52:17,200
going to get the full story
right.

1733
01:52:17,200 --> 01:52:23,080
You just won't.
Sure, But at the same time, I

1734
01:52:23,080 --> 01:52:28,880
don't think it's entirely bad if
those who were on the on on more

1735
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:34,480
of the, the, the side of, you
know, trying to figure out how

1736
01:52:34,480 --> 01:52:37,440
to justify same sex marriage in
the church.

1737
01:52:39,000 --> 01:52:43,120
I I'm all for the church being
able to to get rid of those

1738
01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:45,000
those professors if they have
to.

1739
01:52:46,440 --> 01:52:49,840
Yeah, right.
So that essentially like what

1740
01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:55,600
they're complaining about is
that they're they're upset that

1741
01:52:55,600 --> 01:53:02,880
the church wants its employees
to not oppose them.

1742
01:53:03,680 --> 01:53:07,520
Right.
And like to to not like actively

1743
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:12,800
fight against their interest.
And like, I hate to break it to

1744
01:53:12,800 --> 01:53:18,000
you, but like that's pretty
standard for basically all

1745
01:53:18,000 --> 01:53:21,680
employed.
Like if I started speaking badly

1746
01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:27,640
about my employer, like I should
expect to not stay there for

1747
01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:32,640
much longer, you know, like
that's that's just pretty that's

1748
01:53:32,640 --> 01:53:37,760
pretty normal, you know, like,
and also why do you want to work

1749
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:43,320
at a place that you like
fundamentally disagree with like

1750
01:53:43,320 --> 01:53:48,160
on a on like core?
Like if the if the Democratic

1751
01:53:48,160 --> 01:53:52,800
Party like offered you a job,
would you take it?

1752
01:53:53,520 --> 01:53:55,040
Dave?
No, right.

1753
01:53:55,760 --> 01:54:01,280
Like, you know, like it.
Like why would you work for an

1754
01:54:01,280 --> 01:54:04,960
organization that like you
fundamentally disagree with?

1755
01:54:05,600 --> 01:54:06,960
OK.
And also it's like this, this

1756
01:54:06,960 --> 01:54:08,760
whole thing, oh, I'm being
threatened with my job.

1757
01:54:09,120 --> 01:54:10,520
Why are you working?
There.

1758
01:54:10,800 --> 01:54:15,320
Well, I I think you're leaving
out an important caveat to that.

1759
01:54:16,000 --> 01:54:19,920
I don't know if you have ever
watched the fantastic.

1760
01:54:21,040 --> 01:54:25,640
It's it's second only to the
Office, this fantastic sitcom

1761
01:54:26,880 --> 01:54:31,200
Parks and Rec.
And when Ron Swanson works for

1762
01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:35,720
the Parks Department and says I
am here to bring down the system

1763
01:54:35,720 --> 01:54:39,480
from the inside.
So I mean, I suppose you had

1764
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:40,800
that.
I mean which?

1765
01:54:40,840 --> 01:54:42,920
But no.
To be fair, I think that's

1766
01:54:42,920 --> 01:54:45,480
exactly what's going on here
with some of these professors,

1767
01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:47,840
but I'll let.
You know your thought, well,

1768
01:54:47,840 --> 01:54:49,760
there, there's two dynamics
going on.

1769
01:54:49,880 --> 01:54:53,000
So yeah, there's that.
Like there, there are some that

1770
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:57,240
are like actively there because
they want to undermine the

1771
01:54:57,240 --> 01:54:59,600
church.
There's the the church should be

1772
01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:01,360
aware of and like
traditionalists within the

1773
01:55:01,360 --> 01:55:06,480
church should be aware of this
too, because the more like

1774
01:55:06,480 --> 01:55:11,400
progressive lefty side of the
church, they know that the

1775
01:55:11,400 --> 01:55:16,960
church responds to pressure like
they know the church does not

1776
01:55:16,960 --> 01:55:22,360
like getting bad press.
The church doesn't like when

1777
01:55:22,360 --> 01:55:28,760
they're being criticized.
They especially don't like legal

1778
01:55:28,760 --> 01:55:32,120
battles.
And so, like, they know that the

1779
01:55:32,120 --> 01:55:35,880
church will, at a minimum,
moderate the position and

1780
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:39,200
sometimes change based on
pressure from the outside.

1781
01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:42,720
They know that that's a fact.
Traditionalists in the church

1782
01:55:43,000 --> 01:55:47,000
insist that that's not true.
And because they insist that

1783
01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:53,280
that's not true, when it
happens, they will say, oh, this

1784
01:55:53,280 --> 01:55:57,320
leftist thing that I've always
opposed, It's now what God

1785
01:55:57,320 --> 01:56:03,160
wants.
And so that's kind of the, the

1786
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:07,400
situation where you, the, the
like you've got professors who

1787
01:56:07,400 --> 01:56:11,840
are coming in there to put that
pressure to kind of seed the

1788
01:56:11,840 --> 01:56:17,560
next generation towards this.
And so that's the one dynamic.

1789
01:56:18,480 --> 01:56:26,960
Then the other dynamic is it's
hard to get a job in at

1790
01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:31,720
universities today.
Enrollments are down.

1791
01:56:32,120 --> 01:56:37,640
Like people are finding out that
it is not as good an investment

1792
01:56:37,960 --> 01:56:47,800
as they were led to believe.
And BYU offers a a place where

1793
01:56:48,240 --> 01:56:53,400
if you're a member of the
church, you can get employment

1794
01:56:53,480 --> 01:56:57,800
there a little more easier than
you would and a lot of other

1795
01:56:57,800 --> 01:57:02,360
universities if you are kind of
a mediocre teacher.

1796
01:57:04,040 --> 01:57:10,120
And if you're pretty mediocre,
you're terrified of getting

1797
01:57:10,120 --> 01:57:15,520
fired, like most people who are
like committed progressives and

1798
01:57:15,520 --> 01:57:18,880
who do fundamentally disagree
with the church they don't want,

1799
01:57:19,000 --> 01:57:22,160
and they are like competent in
their profession.

1800
01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:27,640
They are just going to go work
somewhere else, right?

1801
01:57:27,640 --> 01:57:31,160
But if you are not competent and
you know you're not, and you

1802
01:57:31,160 --> 01:57:35,240
know no one else is going to
hire you if you get fired, then

1803
01:57:35,440 --> 01:57:39,120
you are going to kick and scream
and cry and whine, do everything

1804
01:57:39,120 --> 01:57:42,520
you can to hold on to your nice
cushy job at BYU.

1805
01:57:43,760 --> 01:57:47,080
Because like, if you really
actually oppose them and you're

1806
01:57:47,080 --> 01:57:51,480
not like on, on this like
mission to infiltrate them, go

1807
01:57:51,480 --> 01:57:53,520
get another job.
You're kind of a loser if you

1808
01:57:53,520 --> 01:57:57,160
don't, you know?
No, I, I agree.

1809
01:57:57,240 --> 01:57:59,400
I agree.
Look, I, I've, I've thought

1810
01:57:59,400 --> 01:58:04,320
about this a little bit, right?
Because look, if, if everything

1811
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:10,560
was, was where it was supposed
to be within society, I've got

1812
01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:14,160
no problem with my kid.
If you know, when I send a kid

1813
01:58:14,160 --> 01:58:18,560
off to school, off to college, I
want my kid to be challenged on

1814
01:58:18,560 --> 01:58:20,240
what he believes a little bit,
right?

1815
01:58:20,400 --> 01:58:24,280
I, I want him to have to kind of
be, and this is figuratively

1816
01:58:24,280 --> 01:58:26,520
speaking, not literally, but
kind of be put up against the

1817
01:58:26,520 --> 01:58:29,440
wall a little bit and say, tell
me why it is you believe what

1818
01:58:29,440 --> 01:58:31,480
you believe.
I think that's a healthy thing,

1819
01:58:31,920 --> 01:58:33,960
right?
Why is it you believe this?

1820
01:58:35,160 --> 01:58:42,720
The problem is, is that at BYU,
at, at most universities, it's

1821
01:58:42,720 --> 01:58:45,520
not that.
What it is, is it's an

1822
01:58:45,520 --> 01:58:50,840
indoctrination camp, right?
And so you go on to most major

1823
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:52,440
universities and what are you
going to see?

1824
01:58:52,440 --> 01:58:54,440
You're going to see a lot of
leftist Marxism.

1825
01:58:54,720 --> 01:58:56,840
You're going to see a lot of
feminism, you're going to see a

1826
01:58:56,840 --> 01:59:00,320
lot of pro LGBTQ stuff going on,
right?

1827
01:59:00,640 --> 01:59:04,760
And it's, it's less about how to
think and more about what to

1828
01:59:04,760 --> 01:59:06,000
think.
And they're going to tell you

1829
01:59:06,000 --> 01:59:08,640
exactly what to think.
Right.

1830
01:59:09,160 --> 01:59:13,200
Well, diversity is people who
look different saying the same

1831
01:59:13,200 --> 01:59:15,080
thing, right?
Right.

1832
01:59:15,800 --> 01:59:21,520
And, and so if if that's kind of
what you're going to get there

1833
01:59:21,520 --> 01:59:25,280
at BYU, you're going there
understanding that it's a little

1834
01:59:25,280 --> 01:59:27,840
bit different, right?
And so when someone comes out

1835
01:59:27,840 --> 01:59:32,320
and says, I'm shocked that they
don't dig on my LGBTQ stance.

1836
01:59:32,920 --> 01:59:37,480
No, bro, you knew exactly what
you were getting into 100%.

1837
01:59:38,040 --> 01:59:41,880
And the only difference now is,
is that it looks like the church

1838
01:59:41,880 --> 01:59:46,960
is about to get serious in, in
getting rid of some of that,

1839
01:59:47,040 --> 01:59:49,680
right?
And good for them, right?

1840
01:59:50,000 --> 01:59:53,000
Because that old adage, the hand
that rocks the cradle is the

1841
01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:56,880
hand that rules the world is
true, right?

1842
01:59:56,880 --> 01:59:59,320
And we're seeing the
repercussions of that coming out

1843
01:59:59,320 --> 02:00:01,320
of other universities right now,
right?

1844
02:00:01,640 --> 02:00:05,120
Kids coming out of school.
It's, it's a different breed,

1845
02:00:05,320 --> 02:00:06,840
right?
They've been taught certain

1846
02:00:06,840 --> 02:00:10,560
things that's much different
than what what has been around

1847
02:00:10,560 --> 02:00:13,880
predominantly up until now,
right.

1848
02:00:15,080 --> 02:00:20,840
And while I'm certainly in favor
of newer, better practices, that

1849
02:00:20,840 --> 02:00:25,280
sort of thing, there's some time
tested things that that while

1850
02:00:25,280 --> 02:00:27,800
you can certainly question, I'd
be very nervous about getting

1851
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:30,760
rid of.
The other thing that makes BYU a

1852
02:00:30,760 --> 02:00:35,720
little bit different is that you
are expected to be a member in

1853
02:00:35,720 --> 02:00:38,320
good standing, which means you
hold the temple recommend not

1854
02:00:38,320 --> 02:00:40,680
only for the students but for
the professors as well.

1855
02:00:41,400 --> 02:00:45,760
Some exemptions are made for non
LDS professors that come in

1856
02:00:45,760 --> 02:00:47,160
right.
They're pretty accommodating

1857
02:00:47,160 --> 02:00:48,200
that way.
Yeah.

1858
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:51,960
But none the less you.
Still got a quick coffee?

1859
02:00:52,720 --> 02:00:54,800
What's that?
You still have to quick coffee.

1860
02:00:55,160 --> 02:00:57,600
Yeah, or at least drink it on
the DL, right?

1861
02:00:57,600 --> 02:01:01,360
You you have to like actually
pour into a swig cup and then

1862
02:01:01,360 --> 02:01:05,840
drink it out of a squid cup.
But at any rate, at any rate

1863
02:01:06,160 --> 02:01:09,280
there, there's some there.
God bless his Diet Coke.

1864
02:01:11,840 --> 02:01:14,400
Yes, Sir, as I just finished a
bottle of Diet Coke.

1865
02:01:15,280 --> 02:01:21,880
But anyway, they the thing that
makes BYU, it makes it worse at

1866
02:01:21,880 --> 02:01:26,840
BYU when this stuff is taught
isn't the fact that it's being

1867
02:01:26,840 --> 02:01:30,000
taught, it's the fact that it's
being taught from a person who

1868
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:32,840
allegedly is in good standing
with the church, working for a

1869
02:01:32,840 --> 02:01:36,640
church institution.
So you bring those kids in and

1870
02:01:36,640 --> 02:01:41,200
you give them that, that you
know, and you know that that

1871
02:01:41,440 --> 02:01:44,880
idea that, hey, you know what,
maybe gays can be married in the

1872
02:01:44,880 --> 02:01:46,720
LDS church.
Maybe they should be able to be

1873
02:01:46,720 --> 02:01:48,760
sealed.
Now you're getting a mixed

1874
02:01:48,760 --> 02:01:50,720
message, right?
And that.

1875
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:54,200
Sounds like someone exploiting a
position of trust.

1876
02:01:54,360 --> 02:01:57,640
Yeah, it does, doesn't it the.
Opposite thing that they

1877
02:01:57,640 --> 02:01:59,480
committed to do.
Kind of like grooming.

1878
02:01:59,640 --> 02:02:04,280
In order to influence young
people behave in a certain way.

1879
02:02:04,480 --> 02:02:06,520
Would would that classify as
grooming Ben?

1880
02:02:06,560 --> 02:02:10,240
I I don't know.
To me that that sounds.

1881
02:02:10,920 --> 02:02:13,720
Does it sound?
Groomy, groomy, groomy.

1882
02:02:13,760 --> 02:02:15,880
It sounds kind groomy.
Yes.

1883
02:02:16,240 --> 02:02:17,720
Groomy.
A little groomy.

1884
02:02:17,720 --> 02:02:22,360
We just made-up a new word here.
Yeah, it it's bad, right?

1885
02:02:22,360 --> 02:02:25,240
Because it it really does send
the mixed messages, right.

1886
02:02:25,240 --> 02:02:29,720
So you might be cranking out
people who are more able to fit

1887
02:02:29,720 --> 02:02:33,440
into the world, but that's not
what BYU was set up for, right?

1888
02:02:33,440 --> 02:02:39,840
BYU was set up to to advance
education in the backdrop of

1889
02:02:39,840 --> 02:02:43,560
religion, right?
And those two were going to to

1890
02:02:43,560 --> 02:02:48,960
walk hand in hand, essentially.
And so as you do this, it sends

1891
02:02:48,960 --> 02:02:51,880
mixed messages.
And what, you know what?

1892
02:02:51,880 --> 02:02:53,360
Let me ask you this question,
Ben.

1893
02:02:53,560 --> 02:02:57,960
What's more insidious, a lie
that's 100% true, or a lie

1894
02:02:57,960 --> 02:03:03,760
that's 90% true?
It's a, it's a 90% true.

1895
02:03:03,840 --> 02:03:07,200
One, it's the 90% true, right?
And that's kind of the same

1896
02:03:07,200 --> 02:03:11,840
analogy at BYU, right, is that
they might, because they're in

1897
02:03:11,840 --> 02:03:15,840
the guise of saying all the
right things about the

1898
02:03:15,840 --> 02:03:20,040
institution, right?
The LDS Church, they can say

1899
02:03:20,040 --> 02:03:23,800
messages that are contrary to
that.

1900
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:28,440
And the kids walk out of there
feeling like, oh, it's just

1901
02:03:28,440 --> 02:03:31,280
going to be my job to push the
church farther down the line.

1902
02:03:32,120 --> 02:03:34,280
Yeah.
And there has been a disconnect

1903
02:03:34,280 --> 02:03:38,680
for a while between what happens
in Salt Lake and what happens

1904
02:03:38,680 --> 02:03:40,560
with the church educational
system.

1905
02:03:40,560 --> 02:03:45,600
And my gut feeling is, is that
the the the higher ups in the

1906
02:03:45,600 --> 02:03:47,960
LDS church are now trying to get
a handle on this.

1907
02:03:49,160 --> 02:03:53,840
So that's what it looks like.
This is where I think I I got a

1908
02:03:53,840 --> 02:04:03,000
different view on it.
So the the church, a lot of

1909
02:04:03,000 --> 02:04:06,840
times when I talk to people who
are also like who are still in

1910
02:04:06,840 --> 02:04:11,560
the church, but like maybe not
all the way fundamentalist, but

1911
02:04:11,560 --> 02:04:14,200
at least like just more
traditionalist conservative,

1912
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:20,120
they tend to think that the
brethren are like on their side,

1913
02:04:20,640 --> 02:04:23,880
But for some reason they got to
be like real secret about it,

1914
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:27,520
right?
And they're not.

1915
02:04:27,520 --> 02:04:30,200
I just, I just don't think they
are like, I think it's, it's

1916
02:04:30,280 --> 02:04:33,720
either the case that if
something is happening at in the

1917
02:04:33,720 --> 02:04:37,360
church and at BYU, it is either
the case that the brethren

1918
02:04:37,640 --> 02:04:41,400
support it or they are powerless
to stop it.

1919
02:04:43,000 --> 02:04:46,520
And it it has to be one of
those.

1920
02:04:46,800 --> 02:04:50,280
And neither of those are very
good, right?

1921
02:04:51,600 --> 02:04:53,280
They're they're, they're just
not.

1922
02:04:53,600 --> 02:04:54,840
And you got to grapple with
that.

1923
02:04:55,160 --> 02:04:59,800
I don't think that the brethren
are like, and I, I, I believe

1924
02:04:59,800 --> 02:05:01,600
that some of them are honourable
men.

1925
02:05:01,760 --> 02:05:04,600
I'm not like, I'm not like
calling them out.

1926
02:05:04,840 --> 02:05:06,960
I believe there is corruption in
the church.

1927
02:05:07,120 --> 02:05:10,360
I'm not going to like sort
through who's what.

1928
02:05:11,120 --> 02:05:15,960
But yeah, like that, that that's
just what it comes down to.

1929
02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:18,800
They either support what's
happening in the church or

1930
02:05:18,800 --> 02:05:23,560
they're powerless to stop it.
And, and that's all that it is.

1931
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:29,960
Now what I think is going on at
BYU is I think very little is

1932
02:05:29,960 --> 02:05:34,800
actually going to change.
I think maybe if there's like a

1933
02:05:34,800 --> 02:05:40,240
couple of really outspoken
critics of the church who are on

1934
02:05:40,240 --> 02:05:43,800
staff, they, they might get
fired.

1935
02:05:45,240 --> 02:05:50,800
I I don't think that look, the
progressives are still

1936
02:05:50,800 --> 02:05:54,920
complaining about like one time
in the 80s that.

1937
02:05:54,920 --> 02:05:58,520
September 6th.
The September 6th, the church

1938
02:05:59,480 --> 02:06:01,880
again, that's kind of
embarrassing to the church.

1939
02:06:02,760 --> 02:06:06,120
Look, if it were up to me, you'd
have trouble staffing BYU with

1940
02:06:06,120 --> 02:06:07,920
how many people get
excommunicated.

1941
02:06:08,120 --> 02:06:12,920
I'd be like, I'd be like, what?
You're going to say anything bad

1942
02:06:12,920 --> 02:06:14,640
about Brigham Young?
You're out.

1943
02:06:15,240 --> 02:06:18,040
You would be like the Oprah of
excommunications.

1944
02:06:18,240 --> 02:06:21,840
You get your walking papers and
you get your walking papers.

1945
02:06:22,680 --> 02:06:26,680
I'd be like, look whose name is
on university, Brigham Young.

1946
02:06:27,120 --> 02:06:30,160
You go in your that math class
and you teach the Adam God

1947
02:06:30,160 --> 02:06:39,560
doctrine, but you're out.
But like, it's, it's not going

1948
02:06:39,560 --> 02:06:40,920
to happen.
What's what's happening?

1949
02:06:40,920 --> 02:06:46,200
My theory is that the church is
waiting for the boomers to die.

1950
02:06:48,600 --> 02:06:49,960
They're waiting for the boomers
to die.

1951
02:06:51,200 --> 02:06:54,400
The it's going to be a very,
very different church when that

1952
02:06:54,400 --> 02:07:01,400
happens because the right now,
that's who's most upset about

1953
02:07:01,400 --> 02:07:08,400
these videos that are coming out
of BYU of professors speaking

1954
02:07:08,400 --> 02:07:12,920
against the family proclamation
or promoting communism or, or

1955
02:07:12,920 --> 02:07:16,640
whatever else.
Boomers are upset.

1956
02:07:17,640 --> 02:07:20,840
They are talking, they're
talking about like not sending

1957
02:07:20,840 --> 02:07:25,400
their kids to, to BYU, their
grandkids, whatever.

1958
02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:27,440
They're talking about not
supporting it.

1959
02:07:27,800 --> 02:07:29,400
Church is very sensitive to
that.

1960
02:07:29,600 --> 02:07:34,800
Because like, while the church,
like their impulse is to appease

1961
02:07:34,920 --> 02:07:39,360
people who are criticizing them
from the left, They know that if

1962
02:07:39,360 --> 02:07:43,640
they did every single thing that
John Delyn wants them to do, he

1963
02:07:43,640 --> 02:07:45,720
will not come back.
Right.

1964
02:07:46,520 --> 02:07:50,920
Like if if they give in to every
single demand that critics of

1965
02:07:50,920 --> 02:07:53,080
the church have, they're not
going to come back.

1966
02:07:53,080 --> 02:07:54,640
They're not going to start
paying tithing.

1967
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:56,760
They're not going to send their
kids on missions.

1968
02:07:57,240 --> 02:08:01,520
But if they do, they're going to
drive out all of the people who

1969
02:08:01,520 --> 02:08:04,640
are actually making the church
happen, right?

1970
02:08:04,640 --> 02:08:08,720
You know, like the the people
who are like, I believe in the

1971
02:08:08,720 --> 02:08:10,320
doctrine.
So I'm going to have a bunch of

1972
02:08:10,320 --> 02:08:12,520
kids, I'm going to teach them,
I'm going to pay tithing.

1973
02:08:12,840 --> 02:08:15,760
We're going to sacrifice, we're
going to serve in callings and

1974
02:08:15,760 --> 02:08:17,200
my kids are going to go on
missions.

1975
02:08:17,520 --> 02:08:21,920
Like those people are the ones
that you lose.

1976
02:08:22,960 --> 02:08:26,840
Those people tend to be
conservative and they tend to be

1977
02:08:26,840 --> 02:08:33,240
older.
Now, if you make those types of

1978
02:08:33,240 --> 02:08:39,640
people too angry, you lose what
actually like funds BYU and

1979
02:08:39,640 --> 02:08:42,800
makes it work when the boomers
are dead.

1980
02:08:43,720 --> 02:08:48,720
And I am a millennial.
But once my generation gets in

1981
02:08:48,720 --> 02:08:52,040
power, I I think it's going to
be a problem.

1982
02:08:53,640 --> 02:08:57,880
And I think that's when the
church is going to start making

1983
02:08:57,880 --> 02:09:01,200
huge radical changes.
I think that they will cave on

1984
02:09:01,200 --> 02:09:03,360
plural marriage and they'll
endorse it.

1985
02:09:03,720 --> 02:09:10,240
They'll, they'll cave.
They, they will and they, they

1986
02:09:10,240 --> 02:09:12,520
just won't, don't want to take
off the boomers once the boomers

1987
02:09:12,520 --> 02:09:16,320
are dead and it shifts and
you've got the millennials that

1988
02:09:16,320 --> 02:09:20,200
are like, well, we probably
should let the gays get married

1989
02:09:20,200 --> 02:09:23,920
in the temple and they will.
So I'm, I'm much more

1990
02:09:23,920 --> 02:09:28,440
pessimistic about BYU.
Maybe in the short term it

1991
02:09:28,440 --> 02:09:32,720
improves a little bit.
I don't think that it's going to

1992
02:09:32,720 --> 02:09:35,480
be mass firings and all this
stuff.

1993
02:09:35,480 --> 02:09:37,360
Like that's just.
I don't think that's going to

1994
02:09:37,360 --> 02:09:39,720
happen.
They might get rid of a couple,

1995
02:09:39,720 --> 02:09:44,680
like, outspoken critics at best.
Yeah.

1996
02:09:45,120 --> 02:09:49,120
And I think what they're trying
to do is just mollify the older

1997
02:09:49,120 --> 02:09:52,400
generation.
But once they're all dead or in

1998
02:09:52,400 --> 02:09:56,560
homes or something and they stop
paying attention, then the

1999
02:09:56,640 --> 02:09:59,800
church is just going to go right
back and a piece left.

2000
02:10:00,480 --> 02:10:05,480
So I I think you're probably
right there, but I guess my

2001
02:10:05,480 --> 02:10:08,560
point in this is to be like, I
think this is one of those

2002
02:10:08,560 --> 02:10:12,640
places where at the moment they
deserve another attaboy on this

2003
02:10:12,800 --> 02:10:15,800
right?
And and and let let me say this

2004
02:10:15,800 --> 02:10:21,520
right obviously, obviously me
and you our opinions ain't

2005
02:10:21,520 --> 02:10:25,520
carrying a lot of weight.
So it you know, could but for

2006
02:10:25,560 --> 02:10:29,560
you know, a good percentage of
my audience is active LDS, right

2007
02:10:29,680 --> 02:10:32,640
card carrying members go to the
temple the whole thing.

2008
02:10:33,960 --> 02:10:37,360
If these are changes that you
like, right, especially here at

2009
02:10:37,360 --> 02:10:43,480
BYU, just like the brethren
listen when you complain, they

2010
02:10:43,520 --> 02:10:45,440
they will also listen when you
do, right.

2011
02:10:45,920 --> 02:10:51,240
And sometimes where the church
is now, I think the membership

2012
02:10:51,240 --> 02:10:54,880
has to kind of empower the
leadership right now.

2013
02:10:54,880 --> 02:10:57,680
It shouldn't be that way, but I
think that's where it is right

2014
02:10:57,680 --> 02:11:00,800
now.
And so this to a certain extent,

2015
02:11:01,320 --> 02:11:04,840
you know, if, if I was still
living in Utah and I was, you

2016
02:11:04,840 --> 02:11:07,840
know, still an active member of
the LDS Church, and I was a more

2017
02:11:08,240 --> 02:11:11,840
from the more conservative old
school line of thought.

2018
02:11:12,480 --> 02:11:15,720
Make sure that those in BYU
understand that you're you're

2019
02:11:15,720 --> 02:11:18,440
all for this, right?
Because I do think the church

2020
02:11:18,440 --> 02:11:21,560
will go where they feel like the
most support is there.

2021
02:11:21,920 --> 02:11:24,200
And you don't necessarily have
to have the numbers.

2022
02:11:24,440 --> 02:11:27,920
If you are the loud minority,
that could be enough to get it

2023
02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:30,920
done right.
And so back them up on these

2024
02:11:30,920 --> 02:11:32,440
things.
Yeah.

2025
02:11:32,720 --> 02:11:38,200
Like, yeah, put in a little bit
of the effort that the the left

2026
02:11:38,200 --> 02:11:42,680
puts in, you know, like, Yep.
Because here's the thing I

2027
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:46,440
should add is that nothing would
make me happier than to be

2028
02:11:46,440 --> 02:11:50,800
proven wrong, right?
You know, like, I will not be

2029
02:11:50,960 --> 02:11:55,600
bitter and upset at all if I
find out that the church stays

2030
02:11:55,600 --> 02:11:59,840
the course and does not cave on
gay marriage.

2031
02:12:00,240 --> 02:12:02,760
I, I would, I would love to be
wrong about that.

2032
02:12:02,760 --> 02:12:06,400
I don't think I will be, but I
would, I would absolutely love

2033
02:12:06,400 --> 02:12:09,240
it.
And if that does happen, it will

2034
02:12:09,240 --> 02:12:17,960
be because the actual believers
in the gospel make their voices

2035
02:12:17,960 --> 02:12:20,480
known and they speak up and they
say so.

2036
02:12:21,920 --> 02:12:26,440
And you know, and you can do
that respectfully if you're, if

2037
02:12:26,440 --> 02:12:29,520
you get a little too carried
away, they they might

2038
02:12:29,520 --> 02:12:31,480
excommunicate you, but that's
OK.

2039
02:12:31,480 --> 02:12:33,880
You can hang out with us.
We'll be your friends.

2040
02:12:35,360 --> 02:12:40,280
But it generally, yeah, if if
you let let it known that this

2041
02:12:40,280 --> 02:12:47,000
is what you want to see, that if
the the church, you know, holds

2042
02:12:47,000 --> 02:12:48,960
the line that they're going to
get support.

2043
02:12:50,440 --> 02:12:53,320
And if you do that, then yeah,
you're going to see more of

2044
02:12:53,320 --> 02:12:56,120
those things happen.
Yep, Yep.

2045
02:12:56,960 --> 02:13:00,000
And, and, and that's, that's the
other thing, right?

2046
02:13:00,000 --> 02:13:02,760
Is that there?
There's this misconception that

2047
02:13:02,760 --> 02:13:05,320
because we're fundamentalists,
we want to see the church go

2048
02:13:05,320 --> 02:13:08,280
away and nothing could be.
Not from the truth.

2049
02:13:08,600 --> 02:13:11,520
I, I don't want to see that.
I don't right?

2050
02:13:12,080 --> 02:13:15,920
And, and I said this for a long
time on this podcast and I truly

2051
02:13:15,920 --> 02:13:19,800
believe it.
Whether we're different groups

2052
02:13:19,800 --> 02:13:22,560
of fundamentalists or we're
fundamentalists and we're LDS,

2053
02:13:23,880 --> 02:13:26,360
you know, we're probably not
going to hug it out on every

2054
02:13:26,360 --> 02:13:29,320
issue on Sundays, but we better
figure out how to start working

2055
02:13:29,320 --> 02:13:31,920
together and having a barbecue
on Saturday, right?

2056
02:13:32,560 --> 02:13:38,040
And, and look, I will just like
I'm trying to, to, to

2057
02:13:38,040 --> 02:13:40,560
demonstrate here, I'll back the
church's play when they do

2058
02:13:40,560 --> 02:13:43,640
something right, right.
I'm never rejoining.

2059
02:13:43,840 --> 02:13:46,240
But when they do something
right, I'll back their play.

2060
02:13:46,280 --> 02:13:49,240
I'll back their play every day,
twice on Sunday, if they do the

2061
02:13:49,240 --> 02:13:55,080
right thing, right.
And, you know, and, and so I

2062
02:13:55,080 --> 02:13:59,680
feel like it's important for us
as fundamentalists to be able to

2063
02:13:59,680 --> 02:14:03,000
look at our LDS brothers and
sisters and go, good on you,

2064
02:14:03,000 --> 02:14:05,080
keep going.
Don't stop, right?

2065
02:14:05,360 --> 02:14:07,600
Hold the line on this.
Just be strong.

2066
02:14:07,600 --> 02:14:11,120
Don't don't give any more
ground.

2067
02:14:12,840 --> 02:14:16,000
Because here, here's the thing,
right in all of this.

2068
02:14:17,000 --> 02:14:20,840
If someone was to ask me what
the church's fatal flaw was here

2069
02:14:20,840 --> 02:14:25,720
on on how they've dealt with all
these issues, the LGBTQ issue,

2070
02:14:26,080 --> 02:14:32,040
the the stuff they're facing at
BYU, The fatal flaw is this

2071
02:14:32,080 --> 02:14:37,680
understand who it is that's
going to war against you, right

2072
02:14:38,080 --> 02:14:40,560
And understand what it is they
ultimately want.

2073
02:14:41,440 --> 02:14:44,640
I feel like for a while the
church really did really was

2074
02:14:44,640 --> 02:14:48,960
trying to be accommodating to a
certain degree and just be like,

2075
02:14:48,960 --> 02:14:52,680
let's live and let live.
I think the failed calculus

2076
02:14:52,680 --> 02:14:56,160
happened when they they didn't
understand who it was they were

2077
02:14:56,160 --> 02:14:59,480
dealing with while they were
trying to play nice and be like,

2078
02:14:59,520 --> 02:15:02,880
no, you know what, they
probably, you know, we should

2079
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:05,520
probably make sure that they
don't get cast out of where they

2080
02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:09,080
live or, or you know what, you
know, that they could buy a

2081
02:15:09,080 --> 02:15:11,520
house if they could have a job,
those sorts of things.

2082
02:15:12,200 --> 02:15:15,320
Why they were doing that.
The other side was like, we're

2083
02:15:15,320 --> 02:15:18,440
playing to win, right?
And nothing less than bowing the

2084
02:15:18,440 --> 02:15:24,920
knee and, and swearing
allegiance to that side would

2085
02:15:24,920 --> 02:15:28,520
suffice.
And so I, you know, my hope is,

2086
02:15:28,520 --> 02:15:31,240
is that maybe with, with what
we're seeing here now, with,

2087
02:15:31,560 --> 02:15:34,040
with being a little more open
about talking about plural

2088
02:15:34,040 --> 02:15:37,880
marriage and maybe trying to, to
weed out some of the bad actors

2089
02:15:37,880 --> 02:15:42,200
at BYU, we're seeing maybe a
recognition of really what's

2090
02:15:42,200 --> 02:15:44,800
going on.
And and maybe they're starting

2091
02:15:44,800 --> 02:15:47,640
to think, OK, maybe we need to
push back a little more here and

2092
02:15:47,640 --> 02:15:50,640
and a recognition of what it is
the other side really wants.

2093
02:15:51,760 --> 02:15:53,600
Yeah.
And you know, and I'm like, I

2094
02:15:53,600 --> 02:15:56,960
just want to echo like I'm not
an enemy to the church.

2095
02:15:56,960 --> 02:15:59,760
I don't view myself as an enemy
to the church, certainly.

2096
02:16:01,080 --> 02:16:07,160
And you know, when I kind of
when I became a fundamentalist

2097
02:16:07,160 --> 02:16:10,520
or I guess I always kind of felt
like I, I always was and just

2098
02:16:10,520 --> 02:16:17,360
didn't know, know it.
But once I, you know, came to

2099
02:16:17,360 --> 02:16:21,800
that realization, I decided
early on, like, I'm not going to

2100
02:16:21,800 --> 02:16:26,080
make an enemy out of someone who
agrees with like 80 to 90 what I

2101
02:16:26,080 --> 02:16:28,520
believe.
You know, like I'm, I'm, I'm

2102
02:16:28,520 --> 02:16:34,000
not, I'm gonna, like, I'm glad
that the, the church teaches the

2103
02:16:34,000 --> 02:16:36,920
Book of Mormon and I'm, you
know, like I, I live in an area

2104
02:16:36,920 --> 02:16:39,799
where I'm not around a lot of
fundamentalists.

2105
02:16:39,799 --> 02:16:45,520
So my wife and I will attend
the, the local LDS ward and you

2106
02:16:45,520 --> 02:16:48,680
know, there's, there's friendly
terms there, there's good people

2107
02:16:48,680 --> 02:16:53,080
there.
And you know, even when I was

2108
02:16:53,080 --> 02:17:01,240
excommunicated, you know, that
was something that it was kind

2109
02:17:01,240 --> 02:17:04,719
of a, a weird situation.
I didn't put any kind of defense

2110
02:17:04,719 --> 02:17:08,000
up at all.
I just said do what you're going

2111
02:17:08,000 --> 02:17:14,320
to do.
And when my, when my state

2112
02:17:14,320 --> 02:17:20,600
president let me know, like, I,
I gave him a hug and I, I said,

2113
02:17:20,600 --> 02:17:22,280
I love you.
Don't feel bad.

2114
02:17:22,559 --> 02:17:24,639
It's OK.
We can still be friends.

2115
02:17:25,280 --> 02:17:29,080
And, and, and that's just how I,
I wanted to treat it.

2116
02:17:29,080 --> 02:17:31,360
I didn't want anyone.
I didn't want anyone there to

2117
02:17:31,360 --> 02:17:36,760
think that you were bitter.
Yeah, that I've got this hatred

2118
02:17:36,840 --> 02:17:39,200
or whatever.
It's like I know where I stand

2119
02:17:39,200 --> 02:17:43,959
with the Lord.
And so really like, part of why

2120
02:17:43,959 --> 02:17:46,160
I was able to do that is because
I was like, I don't think you

2121
02:17:46,160 --> 02:17:50,840
guys actually have the authority
to say anything about my

2122
02:17:50,840 --> 02:17:54,040
standing with the Lord.
So you can say whatever you want

2123
02:17:54,040 --> 02:17:56,120
and it just doesn't really mean
a whole lot to me.

2124
02:17:57,120 --> 02:17:59,320
I just want you to know I still
love you, right?

2125
02:18:00,400 --> 02:18:05,160
And you know, and, and that's
the attitude I've tried to, to

2126
02:18:05,160 --> 02:18:07,440
cultivate.
So, but I see the church doing

2127
02:18:07,440 --> 02:18:09,520
something good.
I'm always going to be like,

2128
02:18:09,520 --> 02:18:11,280
yes, keep that up.
Had a boy.

2129
02:18:12,920 --> 02:18:17,160
But I also, I don't know, in the
short term it's probably a good

2130
02:18:17,160 --> 02:18:19,200
thing.
And but I, I still think long

2131
02:18:19,200 --> 02:18:22,639
term, I think they're going to
cave.

2132
02:18:22,840 --> 02:18:24,760
But I would, you know, look,
look, I.

2133
02:18:25,120 --> 02:18:28,959
You know, I, I think you're
probably right, but but again,

2134
02:18:30,719 --> 02:18:36,559
I, I just feel like this like
if, if, if the more traditional

2135
02:18:36,559 --> 02:18:39,840
side of the church was looking
for an opportunity to get some

2136
02:18:39,840 --> 02:18:42,400
ground back.
This is it, right?

2137
02:18:42,440 --> 02:18:44,040
This is it.
This is your time.

2138
02:18:44,520 --> 02:18:46,719
Understand what time it is on
the clock.

2139
02:18:47,240 --> 02:18:49,760
And you now get to play a little
bit of offense.

2140
02:18:49,760 --> 02:18:54,320
Make sure you let your leaders
know that you are good, you are

2141
02:18:54,320 --> 02:18:56,320
fine.
You are happy with the decision

2142
02:18:56,719 --> 02:19:01,360
to weed out the leftist activist
teachers at Brigham Young

2143
02:19:01,360 --> 02:19:05,080
University.
And likewise, you know, let them

2144
02:19:05,080 --> 02:19:07,600
know that you're happy with the
new curriculum that you put out

2145
02:19:07,600 --> 02:19:09,240
for the kids.
That you're, you know, that,

2146
02:19:09,240 --> 02:19:11,440
that you're happy that they're
being more transparent and

2147
02:19:11,440 --> 02:19:15,520
talking about plural marriage in
a way that that's not catching

2148
02:19:15,520 --> 02:19:18,559
them off guard.
That that, you know, they can

2149
02:19:18,559 --> 02:19:21,000
understand it a little bit all
the way through their, their

2150
02:19:21,000 --> 02:19:25,600
church career, so to speak, and,
and back their play on that.

2151
02:19:26,520 --> 02:19:32,680
We don't have like the just iron
willed Brigham Young or John

2152
02:19:32,680 --> 02:19:35,200
Taylor at the head of the church
anymore.

2153
02:19:35,440 --> 02:19:40,400
Like these aren't the kinds of
men who are going to do what God

2154
02:19:40,400 --> 02:19:44,719
wants no matter what.
These are men who need

2155
02:19:44,719 --> 02:19:48,240
encouragement, you know, and I'm
sorry if that like offends

2156
02:19:48,240 --> 02:19:51,640
people.
I just that's I maybe I'm wrong

2157
02:19:51,640 --> 02:19:53,880
about that.
I don't see that in modern

2158
02:19:53,880 --> 02:19:57,480
church theaters.
I don't see that like that steel

2159
02:19:58,000 --> 02:20:02,440
in them and.
So, yeah, you got to kind of let

2160
02:20:02,680 --> 02:20:06,800
them know because if if they're
only hearing criticism, they're

2161
02:20:06,800 --> 02:20:11,200
only hearing people say, oh, why
aren't you friendly to the gays?

2162
02:20:12,200 --> 02:20:14,160
They're going to think that
that's what people want.

2163
02:20:15,040 --> 02:20:19,800
Another like thing that I had
recently when we we attended our

2164
02:20:20,680 --> 02:20:25,000
local LDS ward is a speaker.
I think they were trying to, in

2165
02:20:25,000 --> 02:20:28,680
their defense, they're trying to
make so weird point and just

2166
02:20:28,680 --> 02:20:33,000
kind of came at it wrong.
But he said the statement, we

2167
02:20:33,000 --> 02:20:35,960
now know that people can choose
their genders.

2168
02:20:36,720 --> 02:20:44,600
And I think I think his point
kind of got jumbled because he

2169
02:20:44,600 --> 02:20:46,440
had a hard time getting back
around to that.

2170
02:20:46,440 --> 02:20:48,440
It wasn't really clear what he
was trying to say.

2171
02:20:50,120 --> 02:20:55,520
But I have like a 10 year old
son who's like kind of pays

2172
02:20:55,520 --> 02:20:58,600
attention at church now, which
is cool.

2173
02:20:59,560 --> 02:21:04,120
And he like listens and we talk
about what is said.

2174
02:21:05,080 --> 02:21:08,640
And so like, that was something
I like leaned over to him and

2175
02:21:08,640 --> 02:21:12,400
I'm like, that's not true.
Like that's false doctrine.

2176
02:21:12,720 --> 02:21:15,200
And he's like, OK, dad.
And then we had a little

2177
02:21:15,200 --> 02:21:19,080
conversation about that.
And but I, I brought it up to

2178
02:21:19,080 --> 02:21:23,280
the, the state president who was
presiding at the meeting

2179
02:21:23,840 --> 02:21:25,920
afterwards, because he didn't
say anything like that.

2180
02:21:26,040 --> 02:21:30,280
It wasn't corrected.
And I asked him about that.

2181
02:21:30,280 --> 02:21:33,560
And he's like, well, you know, I
think, you know, that's not what

2182
02:21:33,560 --> 02:21:35,760
he was really trying to say.
And I'm like, fair enough.

2183
02:21:36,280 --> 02:21:41,160
But I do have a 10 year old and
he is listening to this stuff.

2184
02:21:41,520 --> 02:21:44,640
And I would really like it if
messages are like clear.

2185
02:21:44,960 --> 02:21:48,080
Right.
I don't want, I don't want to

2186
02:21:48,080 --> 02:21:54,000
have to like, no, I that's a
doctrine that's so basic that I

2187
02:21:54,000 --> 02:21:55,680
want the church to be good on
that.

2188
02:21:55,720 --> 02:21:58,640
You know, I don't really have to
like fight that.

2189
02:21:59,040 --> 02:22:04,880
And and he sent me like the
church's like updated policy on

2190
02:22:04,880 --> 02:22:10,640
transgender issues and stuff.
And they have become that.

2191
02:22:10,640 --> 02:22:13,720
It's not what I would like, I
would like, I would like to

2192
02:22:13,720 --> 02:22:18,760
excommunicate anyone and
everyone who supports in any way

2193
02:22:19,000 --> 02:22:22,760
transitioning Enders at all.
Yep.

2194
02:22:23,520 --> 02:22:32,000
They're not doing that, but they
they have swung way more toward

2195
02:22:32,000 --> 02:22:35,080
the side of sanity.
And he sent that to me.

2196
02:22:35,080 --> 02:22:37,960
And he's like, well, you know,
this did upset a lot of people,

2197
02:22:37,960 --> 02:22:39,560
but I think the church did the
right thing.

2198
02:22:39,560 --> 02:22:42,440
And I was like, yeah, like, this
is definitely in the direction

2199
02:22:42,440 --> 02:22:45,440
and of what I want because I
don't want to have to like,

2200
02:22:46,520 --> 02:22:52,400
explain to my kids like, that's
us being created at church.

2201
02:22:52,400 --> 02:22:56,520
So, you know, you can do this in
a respectful way where you let

2202
02:22:56,840 --> 02:23:01,560
people know like, hey, this is
this is what we want to see.

2203
02:23:01,560 --> 02:23:03,400
We want to see the Scriptures
thought.

2204
02:23:03,800 --> 02:23:07,400
We want to see the doctrine that
we were raised with.

2205
02:23:07,400 --> 02:23:09,400
That's what we want to stick
with you.

2206
02:23:09,400 --> 02:23:10,640
Know.
Yep, Yep.

2207
02:23:11,680 --> 02:23:15,600
Yeah, I think to sum all this up
for me, you know, going back to

2208
02:23:15,680 --> 02:23:18,760
the, to the whole thing with
the, the plural marriage

2209
02:23:18,760 --> 02:23:25,440
curriculum there, don't be
distracted by those who are on

2210
02:23:25,520 --> 02:23:28,040
who from the ex most side of
things, right?

2211
02:23:28,520 --> 02:23:31,440
The ex Mormon crowds gonna do
what they're gonna do, right?

2212
02:23:32,640 --> 02:23:37,080
They have a different agenda and
their agenda is to discredit not

2213
02:23:37,080 --> 02:23:39,280
just the church, but the gospel
entirely.

2214
02:23:40,760 --> 02:23:44,960
And so no amount of pandering to
them is going to make it better,

2215
02:23:45,120 --> 02:23:47,560
right?
You, you, you know, the church

2216
02:23:47,560 --> 02:23:49,560
did a good thing with coming out
in this curriculum.

2217
02:23:49,560 --> 02:23:53,120
They, I think they needed, they
need to be applauded on that,

2218
02:23:53,120 --> 02:23:57,320
getting rid of some, some really
lefty professors.

2219
02:23:57,840 --> 02:23:59,280
They need to be applauded on
that.

2220
02:23:59,280 --> 02:24:02,480
And members of the LDS church
who feel that way need to get

2221
02:24:02,480 --> 02:24:05,880
more vocal.
I mean, I look, I know that us

2222
02:24:05,880 --> 02:24:08,800
on the right side of the
spectrum, both religiously and

2223
02:24:08,800 --> 02:24:13,080
and politically, I know we're
busy doing things like having

2224
02:24:13,080 --> 02:24:18,080
jobs and raising kids and we
don't have time to be, what had

2225
02:24:18,080 --> 02:24:25,920
John Dylan put it, grievance,
whatever grievance seekers,

2226
02:24:26,240 --> 02:24:28,240
right?
We don't have that kind of time.

2227
02:24:28,680 --> 02:24:32,480
So when we have the opportunity
here to tell the church they did

2228
02:24:32,480 --> 02:24:35,880
right and help prop them up a
little bit, I think we need to

2229
02:24:35,880 --> 02:24:37,240
do it.
And that was pretty much it.

2230
02:24:37,240 --> 02:24:39,280
Ben, anything else you want to
say in conclusion?

2231
02:24:40,000 --> 02:24:43,280
Well, as a fundamentalist, I
really just want to like

2232
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:48,840
highlight the problem that you
ought to have with that cartoon

2233
02:24:49,440 --> 02:24:56,680
is the whole 1890, we're getting
rid of plural marriage thing,

2234
02:24:57,120 --> 02:24:59,160
right?
That's the thing that should

2235
02:24:59,160 --> 02:25:02,120
upset you.
By the way, I want you, I invite

2236
02:25:02,120 --> 02:25:08,960
all of our LDS corporate church
friends to just really hone in

2237
02:25:08,960 --> 02:25:12,760
on that There's.
Five whole episodes that I did

2238
02:25:12,760 --> 02:25:15,400
with Michael Ness about post
manifesto polygamy.

2239
02:25:16,160 --> 02:25:20,080
Go back and listen to him, guys.
I'm not about to rehash it all

2240
02:25:20,080 --> 02:25:22,840
here.
I'm just going to reiterate that

2241
02:25:23,040 --> 02:25:27,880
it's been said many times by
fundamentalists that the

2242
02:25:27,880 --> 02:25:32,200
manifesto is addressed to whom
it may concern, and it does not

2243
02:25:32,200 --> 02:25:34,720
concern me and it shouldn't
concern you.

2244
02:25:34,880 --> 02:25:38,920
Yeah, absolutely awesome.
All right, big dog.

2245
02:25:39,040 --> 02:25:41,280
That was fun.
Yeah.

2246
02:25:43,040 --> 02:25:45,400
Never thought I'd see the day
when I had to do one of these,

2247
02:25:45,480 --> 02:25:48,040
but I'm.
I'm glad we did it.

2248
02:25:48,040 --> 02:25:50,880
So.
All right, Awesome, Ben.

2249
02:25:50,880 --> 02:25:53,120
We'll talk at you next time all.
Right.

2250
02:25:53,520 --> 02:26:26,760
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2251
02:26:26,760 --> 02:26:28,200
Renegade podcast.