Episode #165: A Musician Converts To Orthodox Mormonism W/Tom Bennett

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If you were to ask most people
off the street what an Orthodox

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Mormon is, they would give a
description of what they have

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seen from the mainstream media.
The issue with this is that the

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those images presented by the
media is really about just one

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group.
Because of the nature of that

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business, people often don't get
to see folks in this faith

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tradition as they really are,
which is a vibrant people from

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all walks of life with various
talents and abilities that can

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bless the lives of all of God's
children despite our religious

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differences.
Now, I've talked with several

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people on the podcast about how
they ended up believing in and

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practicing Orthodox Mormonism.
Today, Tom Bennett joins me on

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the podcast to talk about his
journey into Orthodox Mormonism.

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Now, one of the ways Tom's makes
his living as a musician, which

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makes him a very interesting guy
when you think of his faith.

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Now in the course of our
conversation, we talk about his

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journey from being a Baptist to
a member of the LDS Church, his

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mission for the LDS church, his
journey into fundamentalism, his

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falling away and return to the
restored gospel, and how his

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faith sustains him in the music
industry.

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And towards the end, you're even
going to get to hear a couple of

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songs that Tom regularly
performs that much, much more on

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this episode of the Mormon
Renegade Podcast.

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Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Tom, what's going on, dude?
Oh, just sitting here looking

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forward to being on my favorite
podcast.

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Yeah.
I always say when someone says

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that I'm their favorite podcast,
I'm like, you got to expand your

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horizons a little bit, right?
I'm doing this thing on a

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shoestring budget and and
whatnot.

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So but I do appreciate all the
listens.

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I mean, anytime anyone listens,
I, I sure, sure appreciate it

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and certainly caught me off
guard with the success that it's

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had.
But well, dude, you've been a

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busy, busy man.
Yeah, yeah.

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Life is good.
Things are busy.

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It's been a, you know, we're
coming into 2025 and 2024 was a

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was a great year with a lot of,
a lot of change and blessings.

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How's work going, man?
Are they keeping you busy out

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there?
Yeah, yeah, Still playing a lot

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of music and actually just was
working on some leather work

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right before getting on here
with you.

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Nice.
So for anybody that doesn't

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know, well Tom, go ahead and you
tell them what what you do for a

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living.
Yeah, well, if you listen to the

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Mormon Renegade podcast, you'll
notice there's some music at the

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beginning.
That's that's me.

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So I perform country music as a
one man band and for years I've

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traveled all around the United
States.

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These days I'm more regional to
the Utah and Western States area

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and I also do custom leather
work.

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Dude, it's so fascinating to me
when when somebody is as vocal

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about being a fundamentalist you
are and then decides to get into

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a career right where you're like
performing and that that to me

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is nuts.
How did how did you get here?

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How did you become a
fundamentalist?

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Well, that's, that's kind of
what I wanted to talk to you

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about today.
I've, I've listened to, I've

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listened to some of your other
interviews with people who have

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converted to fundamentalism.
And those stories are always

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fascinating.
Matter of fact, I, I heard that

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there was maybe a book coming
out where they were going to

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talk about the first families
that converted to fundamentalism

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up like in the Millville, Cache
County area and the origins of,

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of those conversions.
And I hope that book does get

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written because it's awesome to
hear these stories for me and

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feel free to kind of guide this
along.

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I've, I've got events going all
the way back to the, in the late

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90s that kind of were the
beginning.

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But so I, I grew up in Georgia
on the Georgia, Alabama border

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on a family farm and it's a
beautiful place to grow up.

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And I had good parents, but they
didn't raise me with, with any

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type of religion at all.
Just kind of, I always described

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as a traditional southern
values, you know, like, yes Sir,

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no ma'am, opening doors, all
that kind of stuff.

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So I was raised very well, but
no, no religious direction at

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all.
And the farm that I grew up on

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is in the Piedmont region, so
it's kind of the foothills of

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the Smoky Mountains, very
beautiful country.

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And my first experiences with
spirituality, philosophy came

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from the things I would see in
nature.

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That was that's what got me
thinking.

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So as as you're growing up, just
a couple quick questions.

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So like, I didn't grow up in a
church, right?

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And so I can I can kind of
resonate with that now.

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Was God ever talked about in
your home?

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Was there ever sort of any
spirituality that was talked

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about, you know, outside of a
religious framework, obviously,

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right.
Did did that ever take place?

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I have a very vague preschool
age recollection, recollection

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of being taught that now I lay
me down to sleep prayer and that

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that was really about the extent
of it.

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I don't remember going to church
on holidays or wherever having

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family prayer or any any such
discussions as a child.

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So what about music in your life
were were you always musically

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inclined?
Was that something that that was

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taught to you or is that
something that you just picked

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up later?
Yeah, it was just, there's

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something I picked up along the
way.

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I got, I got a harmonica for
Christmas when I was 9 and I

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started with that.
I always liked singing.

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And years later I, I eventually
became a Baptist and I thing

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with the choir a little bit
there, but probably, probably

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around 15 years old, I started
making music with, with, with

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friends That became our first,
our first band.

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And then from there, it's just
always been something I've done.

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Nice.
So let me ask you this.

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You said that that a lot of your
early, well, I guess spiritual

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awakenings or thoughts on
philosophy comes from things

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that you observed just out there
in nature.

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What kind of things, what, what
kind of epiphanies are you

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having at those moments?
Well, the earliest.

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The earliest things I remember,
even though I wasn't again,

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wasn't raised with any kind of
religion, I remember being in my

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first childhood home.
So I had to be had to be

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probably 5 or under and looking
through the window at the way

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beams of light would kind of
come through.

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And you know, they take on that.
You can see the shape of the

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beam.
And I remember looking at that

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and feeling kind of a sense of
peace and just wondering how it

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was that light moved that way
and just wondering at the

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science behind it, even as a
young kid.

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And then on the farm, probably a
common line of reasoning for a

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lot of people, just just
noticing insects and ants and

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just their interactions and the
complexities of of their

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organizations.
You know, like kicking open an

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anthill and looking at what's
going on in there and, and

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having thoughts like, I wonder
if this is the way God views us,

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You know, just stuff like that
and moments of tranquility and

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peace in the woods that would
just naturally cause me to

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wonder about the interplay and
the, the sense of there's a word

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I'm looking for, like the mutual
beneficial actions of nature and

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how complex those organizations
and systems are.

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The symbiosis of it all.
Yes, that's sort of the

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symbiosis of nature really got
me thinking about those things.

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And I remember by the time I was
a teenager, I would sit by the

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fire and just think about how
the structure of an atom is

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similar to the structure of the
universe as a whole.

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You know, with the sun at the
center and the planets.

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That's the same system we see
down to the microscopic level.

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And to me, that indicated divine
order.

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Those were kind of the first
spiritual thoughts I ever had.

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So, so basically through your
observation, it's like, you

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know, you're really seeing order
and structure, right?

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And what's interesting is that
usually within nature, we don't

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see a lot of that, right?
Typically you look and you it

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looks a lot like chaos.
However, when you look at with a

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closer eye, you start to see
those structures in that order

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that begin to come through that
they kind of show you, hey,

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there may be something more
going on here than just life got

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started by being in the magical
loos and lightning hit it at

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just the right time.
Right, Right.

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Yeah.
So let let me ask you this.

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Through through any of those
formative years, do you have any

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thoughts of God period?
I mean, was there ever a moment

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that you questioned the
existence of God, or do you feel

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like it was just kind of given
to you naturally to recognize

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that there was probably a divine
creator or, you know, a God?

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I, I think I, I wasn't Even so
far convinced as to the level of

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faith.
It was just a, a matter of deep

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seated curiosity.
And I even as a young age, I, I

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appreciated that I got to
discover it on my own.

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And that's something that I feel
really grateful for at this

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stage of my life is I've always
been able to seek out my own

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answers because I wasn't raised
with the family structure of

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going to church together and
being taught somebody else's

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beliefs.
I was able to discover it all on

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my own.
And the idea of personal

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revelation, it, it sat well with
me because that was the way I'd

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always kind of deduced
knowledge, at least the

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spiritual and natural things.
Gotcha.

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So let's let's go back here.
So does anything interesting

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happen in between this time that
you're, you know, making these

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observations in nature and then
the time you become a Baptist?

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Yes, So growing up in Georgia,
the the religious climate out

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there is evangelical
Christianity, you know, lot of

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lot of born again type
movements.

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And where I grew up, it was
very, very rural.

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I grew up on a, on an actual
rural route, a little dirt trail

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probably around 20 miles from
the closest town, which was also

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very small in about 120 acres of
hay fields and swamps and

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forest.
And so I'm, I'm thinking about

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these things on my own.
And then I figured that to gain

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more knowledge, I would probably
begin at the most readily

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available source.
So being that a lot of my

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friends were were Christian and
particularly Baptist, was it

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easy to get a Bible?
And I decided that I would read

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it on my own.
So I started when I was maybe

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just barely about 15 years old.
I got a King James Bible and I

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started in Genesis and I I read
the whole thing, which took me a

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little over two years.
Gotcha.

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And so as you're reading the
Bible, what's your thoughts as

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you're going through that?
Well, so I approached it again,

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just with curiosity.
I wasn't.

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I wasn't a Christian and I
wasn't even necessarily a

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believer in God.
I did believe that there was a

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spiritual element to existence,
but I didn't claim to know

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anything about it other than
just the observations I had,

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which again, we're not even to
the level of faith, just just a

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strong curiosity.
I, I kind of viewed it like if

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there's truth out there, I want
to, I want to gain knowledge of

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it, whatever it might be.
And so the Bible was a great

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source to do that.
And of course, the Bible, I

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eventually went with the most
readily available source and

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started going to a little local
Baptist Church that some friends

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went to.
And it was there that I got to

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experience what some of your
readers or listeners may not be

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familiar with, just a
quintessential Southern Baptist

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service, you know, which is
often focused on the New

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Testament, particularly the
words of Jesus.

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So a very limited section of the
Bible.

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And that the belief there is
that that one must come to know

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that they're a Sinner, except
that Jesus Christ is the Lord,

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that he died for our sins and he
is resurrect.

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Well, they don't necessarily
even believe in resurrection in

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00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,560
the bodily sense, but that he
rose from the dead and that

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00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,400
through faith in Him and no
other way, we can be saved.

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00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,720
So I went to one of these
meetings with a very charismatic

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00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,400
old preacher, the kind that kind
of bark when they talk.

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00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,360
If you remember that the Lord
it's called.

230
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:18,120
I.
Believe.

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00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,240
You know, he was phenomenal.
I could still see him in my

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00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:22,640
mind.
He, he kind of looked like

233
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,600
Johnny Cash, you know, And he's
up there jumping up and down.

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00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,320
And he'll take it from a whisper
up to a roar down to a whisper.

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Very dynamic.
And at the end of these

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meetings, they do an altar call,
an altar call.

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00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,040
The preacher will ask everyone
to bow their head and close

238
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,600
their eyes.
And if there's anyone in the

239
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,840
congregation that doesn't know
that they're going to heaven

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00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,040
when they die, in other words,
if they're not saved, then

241
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,640
please raise your hand and feel
free to come up.

242
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,320
If you feel so moved, kneel down
with the preacher, accept the

243
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,400
Lord, be saved, and there you
are.

244
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:01,680
You're going to heaven when you
die.

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00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,040
And at one of these meetings, I,
I felt that that spirit very

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00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:11,160
strongly.
I was 15 and I went up with the

247
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:16,480
preacher, prayed with him, felt
felt the Spirit and accepted

248
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,680
Jesus Christ as my Savior,
continued with my Bible studies,

249
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,480
was baptized into the Baptist
Church.

250
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:36,000
And it was only about two weeks
later where it seemed the the

251
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,280
presence of the Spirit began
just to kind of taper off.

252
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,560
And I found that as I read the
Bible, there were many questions

253
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,960
from the text that the preacher
had no knowledge of and would

254
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,360
just say, well, let's just focus
on accepting the Lord and you're

255
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:56,600
saved.
That's it.

256
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,840
But to me that didn't appease
that quest for knowledge.

257
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,720
So now I was a Christian, but I
still had a great deal of

258
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,319
questions.
There were things in the Bible

259
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:15,599
that stood out to me as profound
and I knew that there was more

260
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:18,760
to them, but I couldn't get
answers about them.

261
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,880
One of those main things being
Psalms 82, six, where it says,

262
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,760
is it not written in the law
that I have said, Ye are gods

263
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,080
and all of you are children of
the Most High, but you shall

264
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:37,360
fall like the Princess.
And reading that stood in direct

265
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,440
contrast to everything I was
learning about Christianity

266
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,200
because it was God speaking, but
he was addressing that there

267
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:50,200
were other gods and that we too
were gods and the children of

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00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:56,800
God.
And this was, I felt, a deeper

269
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,920
and more profound level than
what I was getting, and I wanted

270
00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:05,560
to know about that too.
So as you, you make this

271
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,720
conversion, right?
And it, and it sounds like it

272
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,120
wasn't so much a conversion to a
church or something like that,

273
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:16,360
but but almost a personal
conversion of, of an acceptance

274
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,720
of the reality of deity, right.
And Jesus.

275
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,520
Christ.
And Jesus Christ, right?

276
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,640
And so that was one of those
things there that that obviously

277
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,600
kind of sets the table.
But as you start going through

278
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,360
the scriptures and you start
finding things that that you're

279
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,400
like, OK, so but what about
this?

280
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,120
And as you go to to your, your
local pastor there and you start

281
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:43,400
asking him questions, does he
ever become concerned for you

282
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,720
and asking those questions?
Does he ever like, whoa, whoa,

283
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,960
slow down, Just concentrate on
this.

284
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:54,120
What, what what was his, his
response to you as you'd ask

285
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:57,840
some of those tougher, deeper
doctrinal kind of questions?

286
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,400
He would just generally bring it
back to the to the words of

287
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:10,600
Jesus found in the New Testament
and encourage me to accept that

288
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:16,240
I was now saved and to to just
praise the Lord.

289
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,720
And I noticed at school too,
around this time that a lot of

290
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:26,360
people that either went to my
church or other churches, we're

291
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:30,040
engaged in some pretty wild
typical teenage behavior.

292
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:38,200
And I was concerned about works
lining up with faith, you know,

293
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,280
and, and probably being a new
believer, being a little bit

294
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:47,680
judging of, of seeing other
Christians engaged in things

295
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:54,120
that were just didn't sit right,
you know, and I continued there

296
00:19:54,280 --> 00:20:02,360
in that church for not more than
a few months and quit going.

297
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,240
But I was still reading the
Bible.

298
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,240
It wasn't a matter of losing
faith.

299
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,240
It was more like I'm not finding
answers here.

300
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:16,480
So I'm going to I'm going to
keep studying and let's just say

301
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,400
we'll get into this more later.
But when I later.

302
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,960
Read things from Joseph Smith,
like when he told his mother

303
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:27,520
you, you can go to these
meetings but don't join any of

304
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,360
them.
I can get more by going into the

305
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:33,760
woods for a few hours of my
Bible then you could get and

306
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,840
going to church for two years if
you went all the time.

307
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,440
That kind of statement, which I
was completely unaware of at

308
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,920
that point I didn't know
anything of Joseph Smith or

309
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,040
Mormonism at all.
Never even heard of it.

310
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,440
But later on when I saw things
like that and other things which

311
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,920
I'll get into with you, that's,
that's the sentiment I had.

312
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,400
I just didn't know I had it.
Gotcha, gotcha.

313
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:01,680
No, I get that.
I get that.

314
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,840
So OK, so you make this
conversion, you start

315
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,800
questioning some things you're
reading in Scripture and the

316
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,400
answers.
And I've always said this,

317
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,520
right, I don't blame anybody for
not quote, having the answers,

318
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,560
right?
I, I'm a guy that will never

319
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,880
pretend to tell you I have it
all 100% completely figured out,

320
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,200
right?
And so you can't blame somebody

321
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,400
for that.
But that said for, for people

322
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,360
who are on a different kind of a
journey, trying to dig deep,

323
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,280
right?
And coming to know who, who

324
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,880
Christ is and, and knowing the
nature of deity and some of

325
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,840
these deeper mysteries that
still leaves you a kind of

326
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,480
unsatiated, right?
You're still on the quest for

327
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,680
answers.
So from there, where do you go

328
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:45,640
at that point?
Right?

329
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,840
What happens once?
Once you say, OK, I'm not

330
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,960
finding it here, I'll just take
my Bible and I'll I'll go figure

331
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,520
this out on my own.
Well, you're going to love this.

332
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,000
Hold on a second bye.
You're good.

333
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:04,160
I I did exactly like Joseph
Smith did.

334
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,840
I didn't ask the same question
at first, but I did exactly like

335
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,440
Joseph Smith.
So I'm living on this big,

336
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,960
beautiful farm.
And there's a certain place at

337
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,600
abandoned Sweetwater Creek on
this family farm where there is

338
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,600
a beautiful granite outcropping
that rises up out of the

339
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,360
hillside between a hay field and
the Creek in the middle of an

340
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:30,160
oak forest.
Very, very beautiful place.

341
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:37,760
And I felt drawn to go there.
And I've later learned that it

342
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,200
is, it is a Native American
site.

343
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,640
You can go there and find
arrowheads littering the ground.

344
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,120
It's it's got a very strong
feeling to it.

345
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:57,040
And I felt compelled at the time
after leaving or stopping,

346
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,440
attending the Baptist Church to
go there and build a Church of

347
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,480
my own.
So I gathered up rocks and

348
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,240
stones that were strewn about
the area, and what I saw to

349
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:13,200
build in my mind was a circle of
stone that I was going to build

350
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,680
up into kind of a Dome.
And then I was going to plant

351
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,440
roses around it and let them
kind of entwine around the

352
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,800
structure.
And that was going to be my

353
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,840
place of prayer.
It wasn't that I intended on

354
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,880
starting a church in the sense
of right, looking for converts

355
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,600
or anything like that, but a
personal sacred Grove, if you

356
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,360
will, to go and pray.
And I started going there and I

357
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:40,040
had some beautiful experiences
there.

358
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,960
One of one of the ones that I
remember clearly that was the

359
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,640
most profound was I'd ride
around on a little dirt bike to

360
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,520
get around the farm and I pulled
up on my little CR80 dirt bike.

361
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,240
You know, they're loud.
And I got off at the bottom of

362
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,560
the of the granite and I walked
up and there was a young deer

363
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,040
just standing in the middle of
my little church I'd built.

364
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,000
And I remember reaching my hand
out to it, and right before I

365
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,800
touched it, it turned and walked
away.

366
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:15,080
And to me, that seemed like a
sense of divine acceptance of,

367
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,600
of, of my place, my little spot
there.

368
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,880
So that's where I went to pray.
You know it, that story is

369
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,560
fascinating and I'm I'm going to
tell you why one, I can resonate

370
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,080
with it and I'll tell you that
in a second.

371
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:32,880
But the other reason is is that
if we look through history,

372
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,560
mankind has always been on a
quest for sacred space, right?

373
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,680
We see this in caves like
Chauvet over in France, which is

374
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,200
the I believe it's well, I don't
know.

375
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,600
I think you could make the make
the assertion now Gobekli Tepes

376
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:53,920
older, but it's it's this
intricately formed cave and

377
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,840
inside it's got pictures of both
real life animals, fictional

378
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,840
animals and and you can tell it
was used for kind of religious

379
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,640
rights.
We find this at Gobekli Tepe,

380
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,800
right, which is just a
collection of stones, kind of

381
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,800
like in a hinge.
But some of these these people

382
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,920
took massive amounts of time to
get it done.

383
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,440
Kind of makes us rethink this
idea that it was agriculture

384
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,320
that caused man to settle down
first.

385
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,120
They've now said, well, religion
may have come before

386
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,720
agriculture, right?
This, this idea for first, you

387
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,120
know, sacred space, right?
Stonehenge, all those other

388
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:38,560
things I think are examples of
of men's desire or man's desire

389
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,160
to reach God through a sacred
location.

390
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,680
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And I mean, even Jesus went off

391
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,280
into the wilderness begin to
begin this ministry.

392
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,960
And so did the Buddha.
The Buddha said under the Bodhi

393
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,080
tree.
Yeah.

394
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,240
Most, I don't know.
The only religion I don't know

395
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,760
very well is Islam.
I've never read the Quran.

396
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,160
But I wouldn't be surprised if,
I mean, I know there's holy

397
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,000
mountains in in that religion as
well.

398
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,240
Yeah, and honestly, what better
place to go?

399
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,400
It's like.
Right, absolutely.

400
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:20,160
You know, I, I came to accept
the gospel out in nature, right?

401
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:25,120
I was, everyone knows the story,
but it was it was at a spot that

402
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:27,560
was kind of sacred to me, not
the same way it was sacred to

403
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,640
you, right?
I wasn't using it as a religious

404
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:32,760
in a, in a religious
connotation.

405
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,040
It was just one place I found
peace.

406
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,600
So So you have this experience.
How long are you doing that?

407
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,000
And then where do you go from
there?

408
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,520
Well, probably a few months, not
too long.

409
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:52,200
So around this time I'm also, as
I'm studying, looking for the

410
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,160
truth, I'm also playing in a
rock'n'roll band.

411
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:04,600
And you know, I was, I was only
1516 years old and we, we all

412
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:11,600
got into smoking pot.
And that being said, during that

413
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:18,200
period, myself and a lot of the,
the kids I was around dropped

414
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,080
out of school and just started
playing music all the time and

415
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:27,000
kind of having parties and got
into trouble just for vagrant,

416
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,760
you know, vagrancy and not being
at school truancy.

417
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,840
And I got told that I could
either go back home and and

418
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,320
start going to school or I
needed to, or I was going to go

419
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,880
to juvenile.
So I left the my childhood farm

420
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:49,920
and I moved in with my dad
closer to the city of Atlanta.

421
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:57,040
And out there he lived in a, in
a neighborhood, but also on a a

422
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:02,600
decent size piece of land and a
river flowed through it there.

423
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,480
And I would also go out in the
woods on this new piece of land

424
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,760
that we moved to, that I moved
to and continue my studies.

425
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:20,920
And actually, before, very
probably the most important part

426
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,920
of this whole story, before,
before I left living on the the

427
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:32,480
farm where I grew up and moved
in with my dad, I was 16 years

428
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:38,800
old.
And I did have, at that time a

429
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,680
night of visions.
And I wasn't on any kind of drug

430
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,200
that night.
And there were other people

431
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,120
present.
And those, though that night of

432
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:55,560
experiences colored the whole
rest of my spiritual practice

433
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,800
even to this day.
Really.

434
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,760
If you don't mind me asking,
would you you mind sharing what

435
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,400
it is you saw?
Sure.

436
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:13,920
So myself and three friends were
sitting on the front porch of my

437
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,120
friend's house, where we were
all staying and playing music

438
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,880
all the time.
And these three friends were

439
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,240
born again, Christians like I
was at that point.

440
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,480
And we were sitting on the front
porch and we were discussing the

441
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:37,240
Scriptures and it was in the
evening, the sun was setting.

442
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,600
And I remember at a certain
point and this part that I'm

443
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,000
about to tell you, I've never
I've never told on any kind of

444
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,160
recording before.
But the other part I told on the

445
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,200
Year Polygamy podcast, but I
think it's important to tell the

446
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,160
whole thing.
I was sitting there with my

447
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:04,120
friends, we're discussing the
scriptures and I felt as if

448
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,080
something took control of my
body.

449
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:12,600
And I stood up and I exited the
porch and I walked out into this

450
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,440
field.
And this field was probably

451
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,520
about a three acre rectangular
field with waist deep high hay.

452
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,920
And I walked out in this field
and I turned to my left where

453
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,000
there was a thick row of trees
that began of a large forest.

454
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,120
And I turned and I took steps
towards that forest, and I got

455
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:44,480
about 15 feet from the wood line
and I heard what sounded like a

456
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:55,760
whole multitude of things.
Growling, moaning, wailing,

457
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,600
literal the sound of what you
would imagine with the weeping

458
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,360
and wailing and gnashing of
teeth.

459
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:08,520
I could hear just a horde of
these sounds.

460
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:14,520
And I'm staring into the
darkness and I remember seeing

461
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,440
eyes shine.
Just just tons and tons of eyes

462
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,600
and it was like I was staring
into hell.

463
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:30,840
And as I'm hearing all of this
terrible commotion, I remember

464
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,880
raising my arm to the square and
telling it to A to depart from

465
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,560
me by the authority of Jesus
Christ, which is something I I

466
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,320
was going to.
Say, where did you get the idea

467
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:45,720
of raising your arm to the
square?

468
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,680
Everything that was taking
place, I had no control over it

469
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,080
at all.
Even getting up and walking out

470
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,320
there.
And I did this and I felt

471
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,920
completely empowered and
invigorated.

472
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,200
I wasn't scared at all.
And I stared right into the

473
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,280
darkness, couldn't make out the
beings, just the shining of

474
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,720
their eyes and the sound.
And I remember I turned after

475
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,880
after this vision departed, I
turned and I was walking back

476
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,680
towards my friends.
And I'm still in this trance

477
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,600
like state.
And as I'm walking through the

478
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:27,560
field, I stop again and I look
up into my left And I noticed

479
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:33,640
that all the as the last light
fades out of the sky, there were

480
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,640
thick clouds and they, they
split down the middle and they

481
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,800
rolled back like a scroll.
And it literally looked like a

482
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,320
giant scroll rolling back in the
sky.

483
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,120
And when this happened, I raised
my head to look and I saw a star

484
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,080
and it was very bright and it
descended down out of the sky

485
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,840
and it got to where it wasn't
too terribly high up a couple

486
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:07,080
100 feet at most.
And as I looked at it, I

487
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:12,160
realized that as it got closer
to that point, it was not a

488
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,960
star, it was a throne.
And on the throne sat Jesus

489
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,720
Christ.
He was on the throne.

490
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,920
And I can tell you he was
wearing a purple robe.

491
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,680
He had a crown on his head and
he was holding a a scepter in

492
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,400
his left hand that went down to
the ground.

493
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,680
And he raised his right hand to
me, and I could see the wounds,

494
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:45,360
and I could see his face, and
his hair was white, and his skin

495
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:51,160
was, it almost looked like
copper, like bright, almost

496
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,400
almost metallic, but you can
tell it was flesh.

497
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,760
And he spoke and his voice was
like Thunder.

498
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,400
And he said this.
Behold, the end speedily cometh,

499
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,719
but thou shalt not go with me,
for thou art an evil son.

500
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,280
Oh, so he chastened you?
Yes, that's, that's what I saw

501
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,239
and heard and I swear by it.
And I've not been prone to

502
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,320
visions.
I've never had another one.

503
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,040
That's what I saw.
He said that I was on my knees

504
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,440
in complete awe.
I remember everything was

505
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:37,199
vibrating and pulsating and it
was there was a wind and then

506
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,320
the whole vision closed and the
sky rolled back together and it

507
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,159
was just clouds.
And I stood up, and I remember I

508
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:49,800
kind of stumbled a little and I
was faint.

509
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,600
And I walked back to my friends.
And my three friends, as I

510
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,960
approached the porch, they stood
up and they backed into the

511
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,480
walls and they put up their
hands like this.

512
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,120
And they were yelling something,
but I couldn't hear it.

513
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,240
It sounded like I was
underwater.

514
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:11,400
And I got on the porch, and the
first thing I remember as I came

515
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,720
back to my senses was one of my
friends pointing at me.

516
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:18,320
He said his face is glowing,
look at him.

517
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,800
And he was talking about my
face.

518
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,600
And I stopped.
And my first thought is I came

519
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,080
back to my normal state of
thinking is I have just lost my

520
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,960
mind.
There's no way that this was

521
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,440
real.
I must have lost my mind.

522
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,840
And then the only thing I could
think to do to believe what I'd

523
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,000
seen was I grabbed my friend who
was talking, and I pulled him

524
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,400
around the corner.
And I said, tell me everything

525
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,480
you saw.
And he described to me leaving

526
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,120
the porch, the sound of roaring,
me going out in the field.

527
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,720
He saw the clouds roll back like
a scroll.

528
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:05,400
He saw a star coming down the
sky and nothing more than I

529
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,400
stood up and walked away.
He said I thought you were being

530
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,960
abducted by aliens.
I pulled each friend aside

531
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,320
independently.
They all said the same thing.

532
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,680
None of them saw the Lord or
heard His voice.

533
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,720
Wow, well, you know, to be
honest with you, that kind of

534
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:25,960
holds water, right, because, and
I think you described it

535
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:31,080
perfectly in in it being a
vision right now, to have a

536
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,600
one-on-one physical encounter
with the savior, I believe take

537
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,080
certain ordinances and that's
based on what Joseph said.

538
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,520
But to have a vision, that's
something else, right.

539
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,280
And the fact that you saw, saw
the things you did and you and

540
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,160
your friends didn't, right?
That one particular piece, I

541
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,480
think that's hugely important
and deciphering that.

542
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,280
And the other thing is, dude,
he, he chastens you, right?

543
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,240
He calls you kind of on the
carpet.

544
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,520
I'll never forget those words.
And I didn't like you're saying

545
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,560
I didn't.
I didn't touch his hands.

546
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,320
I didn't right handle the Lord.
I didn't experience that.

547
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:17,200
But I saw what I saw and it
wasn't that long after that I

548
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,360
moved closer to the city and
with my dad.

549
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:27,640
And though though I knew how to
experience what I what I had

550
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:34,200
experienced it, it didn't grant
me any further knowledge about

551
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:39,360
what I was to do rather than to
continue to search.

552
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,640
Now it terrified me because he
said, I'm thinking that you're

553
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,000
not going with me because you're
evil.

554
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,840
You're an evil son.
And so I, I continued to study

555
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:56,880
the scriptures and due to
experiences with prayer and just

556
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,480
feeling like ideas were being
given to me concerning questions

557
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,600
about the scriptures and this
experience, which I hadn't asked

558
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,400
for other than I was asking to
know the truth.

559
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,480
I believed in the idea of
personal revelation at this

560
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:21,200
point for sure.
And I remember being on the very

561
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,400
last section, last few pages of
the Book of Revelation.

562
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,880
I'm almost done with my reading
of the Bible, and I was going

563
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:35,160
through the living room of the
house out to the river to read,

564
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:41,440
and I felt a very strong feeling
telling me to do the exact

565
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,680
opposite, to stop and turn on
the television.

566
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,160
And it was a very strong
prompting.

567
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,400
Wasn't a voice or anything, just
a prompting.

568
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,080
And again, I want to clarify
because I know what I just said

569
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,600
sounds very intense.
I've never had any other

570
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,200
visions.
I don't hear voices.

571
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,560
Right.
You know, my mental health is

572
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,800
fine.
This was a singular event.

573
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:09,520
Yes, it was and nor am I
claiming any kind of authority

574
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:15,400
or to be you.
Don't you don't strike me as

575
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,760
that kind of guy, right?
I would get nervous when people

576
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:21,360
tell me about experiences they
had and then they say, and now

577
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,280
the Lord told me it's I'm the
one mighty and strong, right?

578
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,440
That that's that's where I get
nervous.

579
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,640
These sorts of things you're
talking about here, I feel like

580
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,560
are meant for more personal in
in your case.

581
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,320
And I've had similar not not
quite that intense upfront, but

582
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,680
I have had experiences where the
Lords had to come down and kind

583
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,040
of put my put put his foot in my
rear and get me going in the

584
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,440
right direction.
Right.

585
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,840
So I, I totally understand that.
But yeah, no, I don't, I'm, I'm

586
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,000
not questioning what you what,
what you saw there.

587
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,440
I I get it.
So when you when you get done

588
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,440
with this, that that prompting
is to turn on the television.

589
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,440
What'd you see?
It was awesome.

590
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:07,840
So I followed the prompting and
I stopped.

591
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,120
I picked up the remote, I turned
on the TV and it went to the

592
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:16,520
last channel I'd been watching,
which was MTV, and there was a

593
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,520
commercial with the Lord on it.
And I stopped.

594
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:28,480
And I'm thinking, wow, it's MTV
like weird, you know, and I

595
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,920
watch it and it was a very
powerful commercial.

596
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,080
And the way that the Lord was
portrayed in the commercial, the

597
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,840
power of it felt akin to what I
had experienced.

598
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:47,840
And that it was the same kind of
energy, you know, the reverence,

599
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:52,320
the power of the glory was, was
conveyed in this representation

600
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,640
of Jesus.
And it was a commercial for the

601
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,280
Lamb of God video from the
Church of Jesus Christ, the

602
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,160
Latter Day Saints.
So I stopped, wrote down the

603
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,680
number, and I called right away.
And this was all on the same

604
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,680
night as as your experience here
in the.

605
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,960
World no, no, this was this was
quite a few months later.

606
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,600
I had moved.
I had moved away from the farm

607
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,920
and had moved in with my dad.
OK.

608
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:19,800
All right.
Gotcha.

609
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,680
So not more than four or five
months later, I wouldn't think

610
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,760
so.
I see this commercial.

611
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,960
I, I call about the video and,
you know, they tell me

612
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:34,320
missionaries can bring it to
you.

613
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,040
And I go upstairs, come living
with my dad and step mom.

614
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,200
And I say, hey, I, you know, I
study religion.

615
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:45,120
And I just called about this
video.

616
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,080
I wanted to make sure it would
be OK.

617
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,160
And they said, yeah, as always,
you can do what you will, but

618
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,120
they'll need to meet with you
downstairs in your your area.

619
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,320
We, we don't sure, we're not
interested, but you, of course,

620
00:41:58,320 --> 00:41:59,600
yes.
Thank you for asking.

621
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:00,920
You can do whatever you want to
do.

622
00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:03,000
And how old are you at this
point, Tom?

623
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,560
Just about to turn 17.
OK.

624
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,240
So you're still, you're still
pretty young.

625
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,440
Yeah.
So I I go out, I finish my

626
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,880
reading of the Bible.
I've now got a plan.

627
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,680
I've now got a scheduled meeting
with the LDS missionaries.

628
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,600
I have never heard of the LDS
church.

629
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:24,440
I've never heard of the Book of
Mormon.

630
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:25,640
I've never heard of Joseph
Smith.

631
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,320
I know nothing of it.
To me, it's just a another

632
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,880
Christian Church and I like the
way the commercial portrayed

633
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,240
Jesus.
So the day comes, the

634
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:43,040
missionaries come over and the
first discussion is about Joseph

635
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,800
Smith.
And they tell me, and he was 14

636
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,680
years old, he wanted to know
what church was true.

637
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,720
He went and prayed, and he had a
vision.

638
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,800
And I don't remember now if I
told the missionaries that I,

639
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:03,440
too, had had a similar vision or
if I just said, yeah, I have no

640
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,280
problem believing that this
could have happened.

641
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,400
Now, I was not the type to just
take them at their word, but I

642
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,920
was definitely open to the idea
that such things could happen

643
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:19,080
because I'd experienced similar.
And I really thought that this

644
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,360
was something worth learning
about because it was somebody in

645
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,920
my exact circumstances, at
almost the same age, with the

646
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,640
same kind of questions, having a
very similar experience.

647
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,960
So that night I prayed about the
Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith.

648
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,400
I did not have any kind of
profound experience, but I did

649
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:48,880
feel as though it was sufficient
enough of an answer of just

650
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,240
peace.
And it made sense to me and

651
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:55,120
intrigued me greatly that I
would continue studying.

652
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,920
So I studied with the
missionaries for a few months,

653
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,520
started applying the, the
teachings that they asked me to

654
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,560
in a word of wisdom and all
those things.

655
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,560
Although at that point, I really
wasn't doing anything, you know,

656
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,680
outside the, the rules of the
church at that age, you know,

657
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,160
and I being that I moved in with
my dad, I wasn't around my

658
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,920
friends doing drugs or anything
anymore.

659
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,080
I started going to the LDS
church and they had a huge ward

660
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:34,360
in that area, probably 300 or
more active members and met the

661
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:41,600
three other LDS kids in my high
school and loved church, loved

662
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,680
hearing.
Finally an actual theology that

663
00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,680
laid out a philosophy that
actually had answers.

664
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,320
You know, pre existence, the
reason for our moral probation,

665
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,520
the various kingdoms.
All of this made complete sense

666
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,560
to me.
I was glad to finally have some

667
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,040
answers.
I became thoroughly convinced

668
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,880
that it was true.
I was baptized, started going

669
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,560
out with the missionaries 3 or
so nights a week, getting in

670
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,960
trouble at school for giving out
copies of the Book of Mormon.

671
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,160
I was.
I was strongly converted and.

672
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,680
Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Back, back up, back up.

673
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,320
You got in trouble for at your
high school for passing out the

674
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,960
Book of Mormon.
Yeah, I was a terrible, I was a

675
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:32,680
terrible student.
I, I, I had, I had a learning

676
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,880
disability with math, but
literature, science, philosophy,

677
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,920
all those things come to me
pretty, pretty well.

678
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,040
But math I, I'm like on a
probably a fourth grade level,

679
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,080
just always struggle with math.
So it's very common for me to be

680
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,680
distracted in math and want,
want to get other kids

681
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,160
distracted too.
And, and being a new convert to

682
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,800
the LDS search, I, I wanted to
share it.

683
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,520
You know, I want people to have
salvation and potentially even

684
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,160
exaltation.
So I would fill up my backpack

685
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,600
with copies of the Book of
Mormon and just go to school.

686
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,120
And I'd already talked a little
bit about these kids with it,

687
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,880
about it.
So I would just give out copies.

688
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,120
And one day I gave out probably
30 something copies.

689
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,560
And everybody's sitting in class
reading the Book of Mormon, and

690
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,800
the teacher's like, no, no, you
can't.

691
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,320
You're like, math sucks.
Read the Book of Mormon.

692
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,320
Pretty much, yeah.
Yeah, that was, and you know, in

693
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,360
my ward in Georgia was was
really great.

694
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,760
And yeah, really, really made me
feel welcome and took me under

695
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,640
their wing and started dating an
LDS girl.

696
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:45,360
And yeah, I was a senior in high
school then.

697
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,800
So my plan was to graduate, go
on a mission.

698
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:50,600
Did you do that?
I did.

699
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,800
I did do it.
Now before we go to your

700
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,240
mission, I got to ask this
question.

701
00:46:55,240 --> 00:47:00,720
Do you ever at any point start
to like, hear about teachings

702
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:04,240
that aren't necessarily the
authorized teachings, but maybe

703
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:07,720
something old timers had had
known or or heard?

704
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:11,560
Anything like that?
Yeah, right away.

705
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:12,840
Really.
What?

706
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:18,800
What were what were they?
OK, this is this is such a cool

707
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:20,400
thing.
And I actually got up in church

708
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,360
and told a very condensed
version of this story.

709
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,400
Left out the visions and and
shortened it to about 15

710
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,280
minutes.
I told this story in church the

711
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,760
other day.
I became a fundamentalist before

712
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,320
I left for my mission and I
don't I don't only been a member

713
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,200
for six to eight months.
And here's how it happened.

714
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:49,240
We had a member of our state
presidency there in Georgia who

715
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:55,640
started doing a by invitation
only Sunday school class at his

716
00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:02,040
house.
And it was me, my friend who

717
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:07,400
baptized me and then a young
married couple and that was it.

718
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:10,760
Oh, and and this member of the
stick presidencies, him and his

719
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,400
wife and his son.
So that was just a very small

720
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,920
group of our ward of like 300
and fiftyish people.

721
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,640
And we would meet at this this
brother's house on Sunday

722
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:25,840
evenings.
And it was Lectures on Faith

723
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:33,000
first, then it was King Follett
Discourse, and then we got into

724
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:38,440
a study of the United Order and
then a study on plural marriage

725
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,680
and.
Don't give out that dude's name

726
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,240
because he can get in trouble
and he needs.

727
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:47,520
I never have and I never will.
Yeah, no, don't give that dude's

728
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:48,880
name out.
He's doing, he's doing the

729
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,520
Lord's work inside the church.
So let's let's not let's not

730
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,160
short circuit him.
I'm not going to and I've

731
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,920
encountered a couple men like
him in a lot of different

732
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:04,680
degrees, but that was the first
and I remember, so I remember

733
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:10,800
him saying that we're teaching
you these things because we live

734
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,240
in a very anti Mormon area,
which was true.

735
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,120
And we want you to know what the
detractors of the church might

736
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:24,000
bring up.
But but looking back, no, like

737
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:28,280
this was well beyond that.
And we weren't approaching it

738
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:32,200
from an apologetic standpoint of
if they say this, say this, he

739
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,520
was just teaching us the
fullness of the gospel.

740
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,680
Interesting.
So so do you think that in in in

741
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,800
these people that he's inviting
over, he's seeing something in

742
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,440
them that that he feels like,
OK, the these guys can handle

743
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,200
this amount of meat or what?
What?

744
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:52,440
What do you think his motives
were were in that?

745
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,240
I don't, I don't know.
I know that.

746
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,200
I know that my friend that
baptized me was my age and knew

747
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:06,240
the doctrine very well and was a
really good Mormon young man.

748
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,960
He was going to go on a mission.
He did, I think he went to

749
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,000
Brazil.
And the other couple that were

750
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,480
there was the young men's leader
and his wife.

751
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,120
And they were, they were
phenomenal members of the

752
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:24,840
Church, like just knowledgeable,
but just had the character of

753
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:29,480
good Latter Day Saints.
Now, I would imagine that there

754
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:34,160
were many, many, many more in
our ward that if it was just

755
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,840
that that could have been there.
So I don't know.

756
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,400
I don't know.
But I will tell you this.

757
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:49,240
I got my patriarchal blessing
around the same time and I

758
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:51,320
remember I have it right over
here.

759
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:57,720
I remember reading it to my my
Mormon girlfriend and she was

760
00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:01,480
just like, I don't even know
what that's talking about like

761
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,640
that.
She's like, look at mine and I

762
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,640
read hers and it was like a half
page song.

763
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:13,840
Mine was 3 1/2 pages.
And it sounds like what you

764
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,960
would think a patriarchal
blessing like would have sounded

765
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,080
like in 1890.
Like it's you will have visions,

766
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,760
the veil will be parted, you
will go on into your exaltation.

767
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,080
You'll be here for the end of
the world.

768
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:31,760
Like wild pre existence.
Like it's, it's awesome.

769
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,280
I'd never seen or heard anybody
else's picture of a blessing, so

770
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,240
I didn't know what they were
supposed to be like.

771
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,280
But it was it was an awesome
blessing.

772
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:45,600
And one thing it said, which I
take to heart, especially now,

773
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:51,000
for whatever, whatever reasoning
it says, always stay in the

774
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:55,800
mainstream of the church.
Like that's that specifically is

775
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,800
in my patriarchal blessing.
So it tells me like seek after

776
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,360
these mysteries, have these
visions, have these dreams, come

777
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,840
to know these things, you know,
sit on the councils, all this

778
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,680
stuff.
But then it also says always

779
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,760
stay in the mainstream of the
church.

780
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:19,480
So I have, especially now, being
that I live in a very LDS area,

781
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,520
I associate as much as possible.
And every now and again I'll go

782
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,440
to an LDS church and be
friendly.

783
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,600
I'll usually go on a testimony
meeting and I'll get up and say

784
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,840
something about reading King
Follett or reading, you know,

785
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,600
seek to know the mind and will
of God and try to put little

786
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,320
seeds out there.
But I'm very careful about what

787
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:44,080
I say because I feel like there
might be something important

788
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:48,360
there that I don't yet know.
And so I'm not going to remove

789
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:52,280
myself from the LDS church.
They'll have to remove me.

790
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:57,400
You know, and I think you're
wise with with how it is you're

791
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:02,000
going in there, right, Because
the things you're saying from

792
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,920
from what you just described, I
think are things that even those

793
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,480
who aren't familiar with, with
what we fundamentalists would

794
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:13,320
term the fullness are things
that are innocuous enough on the

795
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,680
surface.
That's not going to do any

796
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,640
damage, right.
I've often said the worst thing

797
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,080
you can do to somebody who's
questioning their faith is throw

798
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,320
a bunch of fundamentalist stuff
at them, right?

799
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,360
Haphazardly kind of pepper shot
them with with information.

800
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,080
And and I'm a guy who believes
that, you know what, we we all

801
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,920
have a different path to do on
this whole restoration thing,

802
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,320
right?
Some of us it's, it's doing what

803
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,200
you and I have done.
For others, it may be staying in

804
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,080
the church, right?
I don't think we should

805
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,560
necessarily just be out there
saying, oh, you should, you

806
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:51,520
should leave where you are.
I don't think that's healthy.

807
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:53,240
And I don't think that that's
right.

808
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:56,120
I think it I think it's people.
We have different roles to fill.

809
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,400
We have different callings that
need to be fulfilled.

810
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:03,120
And you never want to short
circuit somebody else's, right?

811
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,880
We should always be quick to
answer when questions are asked,

812
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:12,440
but there is there is wisdom in,
in, in knowing how much to kind

813
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,440
of let out in certain
circumstances.

814
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,080
So, so good on you for that.
So let me ask you this, right?

815
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:23,120
You're, you're a new convert.
You roll into this class with

816
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,200
this member of the state
presidency, you said yes and you

817
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,560
get like a dose of
fundamentalist thought it.

818
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,360
Was so good I called it.
At the time, I referred to it as

819
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,280
real Mormonism.
Real Mormonism, I like it, but

820
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:39,760
at any point did it freak you
out?

821
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,880
Did like 'cause if you go
walking in cold, right, like I

822
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:48,960
imagine you go from like, hey,
we're here to do XY and Z and

823
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,440
you know it.
It's it's very much milk, right?

824
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,360
True, but still milk.
And then all of a sudden you

825
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,640
walk in and you get a lot of
steak.

826
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,400
I mean, it didn't blow your hair
back, didn't freak you out,

827
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,840
nothing like that.
No, I loved it.

828
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,440
It resonated with me on a level
that nothing I'd ever heard in

829
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,840
my life did.
Like I said, I referred to it as

830
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,240
real Mormonism.
You know, even the church will

831
00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:15,520
tell you like they're like you
said, there's milk and there's

832
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:17,880
meat.
And I feel that nowadays,

833
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,280
unfortunately, we're often told
in the church, don't seek after

834
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,440
the mysteries.
Well, there's quotes from Joseph

835
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:25,800
Smith where he says exactly the
opposite.

836
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,120
Seek, seek out these mysteries.
Seek to know the words to the

837
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,080
quote.
Thy mind, O man, if you will

838
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,680
lead a soul.
And so salvation must stretch as

839
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,560
high as utmost heavens down, as
you know, deep as hell.

840
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,400
Paraphrasing a little bit, you
must comprehend all things.

841
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,880
You must commune with God.
It's one of my favorite quotes.

842
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:50,600
Like if we claim to be part of a
religion that can exalt one to

843
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:54,440
the highest degrees of heaven
that are mentioned in the Bible,

844
00:55:55,200 --> 00:56:00,400
7�� all the way up to the top.
If it, if it claims to do that,

845
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,080
how can it not do that without
presenting the knowledge

846
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,280
necessary to lead us right?
High degrees.

847
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,160
And yes, not everyone can
comprehend them.

848
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,320
And yes, you have to be very
careful.

849
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:19,840
I have to be very careful that
as I learn and grow, that my

850
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:24,120
character matches the knowledge,
because then I, it won't benefit

851
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,920
me any if I'm living a life full
of sin, If my mind is full of

852
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,120
lofty thoughts, it would do me
no good, you know, And it's

853
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,280
much, much easier for me to
comprehend the mysteries of God

854
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:38,520
then to, to live righteously.
So I have to put on a lot of

855
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,600
effort.
And, and it's been really

856
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,560
beautiful, especially since
becoming a baptized

857
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:48,360
fundamentalist cause in, in the
work, in the order of the

858
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,000
priesthood that I'm associated
with.

859
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,520
There is a lot of talk of the
mysteries, but there's a lot

860
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,920
more talk about the perfection
of the character.

861
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,680
And it's there will not be a
meeting where that's not brought

862
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:02,840
up.
And for me, it's been eye

863
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:08,560
opening and it's also helped me
to understand so much more about

864
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,920
that great ancient question that
plagues the world, Christianity

865
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,520
between grace and works.
I define it as this.

866
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:21,080
No man can do anything good
except it be by the Holy Ghost.

867
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:25,800
That is how it is grace that
makes our fruits worthy.

868
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,320
You know, I can't stop sinning.
I can.

869
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,760
I can do a lot according to my
own own willpower and the

870
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:37,840
conduct of my mind to become
somewhat good, but I can't root

871
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,600
out all the sin I commit and be
perfect as my Father in heaven

872
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:45,760
is perfect without receiving the
Holy Spirit in its fullness.

873
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:52,040
There's no way I've learned that
very fundamental root doctrine

874
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,480
as a fundamentalist.
You know, it's fascinating

875
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,920
because two things here.
First, we'll go back to walking

876
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:05,720
into to to your first pseudo
fundamentalist meeting inside

877
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:10,360
the church and you're not
freaked out about it at all.

878
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,680
No, it was amazing.
Let let me ask you this what?

879
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,200
What was it that that you think
about the journey you were on or

880
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,640
who you were at that point that
facilitated you not freaking out

881
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:29,720
a little bit, right?
I think it's because just like

882
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,760
Joseph Smith saw in the book of
James, that if we if we want to

883
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,360
know, we can ask of God who
giveth liberally.

884
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:41,280
People think that there's so
much beyond their understanding,

885
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:46,240
and there is mine too, and it
will always be that way until

886
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:50,760
you are a God or goddess in some
distant world, and maybe even

887
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:52,280
then there'll be things to learn
and know.

888
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:58,720
However, nothing is out of reach
with the gift of the Holy Ghost

889
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:04,120
and with the resources that are
on this planet at this time.

890
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:09,320
There is nothing beyond our
understanding if we will ask.

891
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,480
And sometimes those
conversations have to be had in

892
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,640
a veiled way to see where people
are.

893
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:21,920
That I've learned I I get a lot
of gospel conversations with

894
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:27,880
active LDS members with other
fundamentalist singing in bars.

895
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:31,560
I always make sure to sing if
you could hide A Kolob and and

896
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:35,760
put out little seeds here and
there to see if I could spark up

897
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:40,960
something with people.
And just like the Lord in his,

898
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:45,000
in his his similes, in his
teachings, he could say one

899
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,040
thing and it could be understood
in different ways.

900
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,640
And we're often taught that way.
But we can have an experience

901
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,520
and then come back to it years
later and see it in a totally

902
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:59,400
more expansive light as our
ability to receive the Holy

903
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,400
Ghost grows.
Right?

904
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:04,840
So it did.
It didn't scare me because it

905
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:06,920
was already the seed was there.
Right.

906
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:12,800
I, I think for, for us converts
to the LDS church, we're kind

907
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,080
of, it's both a blessing and a
curse, right, 'cause we come in

908
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:18,840
and we don't know anything,
right?

909
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,920
We're like, whatever.
But we're obviously seeking

910
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,440
something 'cause let's face it,
those of us who become Mormon

911
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,560
out of the world, it's not like
we're hanging out going, you

912
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,600
know what sounds sweet?
3 hours of church in some long

913
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:36,040
underwear, right?
That's it's not a great selling

914
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:41,120
point, but it's, it's we're
there because we want the

915
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:43,200
answers to these questions,
right?

916
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:47,960
And we're not I, I don't think
we're as bashful about, you

917
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,680
know, being like, OK, well,
maybe there's other ideas here

918
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:55,560
that go along with this that
maybe aren't put forward quite a

919
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,400
bit, but we just want the
answers come hell or high water,

920
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,120
right?
And so I think that's that's the

921
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,920
case.
And then the next thing I wanted

922
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,600
to touch on was, was what you
said about you need the Holy

923
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:11,720
Spirit to get rid of that
natural man, so to speak, right,

924
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:13,960
to be able.
To I, I don't believe it can be

925
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,800
done any other way, right?
I know, I know people that are

926
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,960
naturally good.
My wife is a prime example.

927
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:27,200
She's just good, and she's not a
believer, but she also comes

928
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:32,360
from a lineage that goes all the
way back to Joseph Smith.

929
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,000
So maybe it's just the ability
for righteousness to just inner

930
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:41,360
blood and.
I mean, that's, that's a

931
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,280
possibility, right?
I, I do think that, that we do

932
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:48,400
inherit some attributes from our
forebears, obviously, physical

933
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:52,880
and otherwise.
But the, the other thing is, is

934
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:58,240
that we absolutely have to have
that right, that, that that

935
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,240
spirit that comes to us and
replaces it.

936
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:06,880
I find it interesting, you know,
if you follow the 12 step

937
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,400
program for Alcoholics, the
first one is this idea of

938
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,800
surrendering to a higher power.
They don't pretend to tell you

939
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,640
what that is, but that's one of
the things you got to do, right?

940
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,800
Whether that's a God or whether
that is a universe, this idea of

941
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,000
unless you got some divine help
here, you're kind of on your own

942
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:28,440
and, and it's going to be hard
to do.

943
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:30,040
So it's fascinating that you
came to that.

944
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,320
All right, so you go through
these experiences where you're

945
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,840
getting a little bit of proto
fundamentalist thought throw in

946
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,520
your direction.
Do you end up going on a

947
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:44,440
mission?
Yes, so so I was living in

948
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:49,680
Georgia and I put in my mission
Pepper papers.

949
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:54,320
I'm so excited to go on the
mission and I get called and

950
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,640
everybody's just laughing their
heads off at where I'd get

951
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,600
called to.
But I remember just being glad

952
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:06,760
to be called, but also having
the impression of, oh, I'm going

953
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:11,400
to learn so much.
I got called to the Utah Ogden

954
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:17,520
mission.
Yeah, but but you probably.

955
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:20,760
I could, I could see where that
would be beneficial, right?

956
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:24,520
Because in some ways you're
about to get an education not

957
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,920
just in Mormonism, but now
you're going to get an education

958
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:31,400
in Mormon culture.
Yes, yes, I was excited about

959
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,080
it.
I mean, my friend got called to

960
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,520
Brazil, you know, he was super
excited.

961
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:38,800
But I, I was like, heck yeah,
I'm going to get to go.

962
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:44,120
I'm going to get to go to the
heart of, of Zion and see, see

963
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:49,440
the temple square and, and, and
be amongst the Saints.

964
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:53,400
It's going to be phenomenal.
And then somebody in my ward

965
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,640
said, look, you're a brand new
member of the church.

966
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:59,400
You're getting called to the, to
the, to Utah.

967
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:06,880
Go and learn all you can and
then come back prepared to serve

968
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,720
further because that's why
you're going to Utah.

969
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:11,840
You're going to Utah to learn
how to be a leader.

970
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,480
And I thought, OK, well, I, I
don't know if that's true, but

971
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,000
I, I'll do what, what I can do.
I'm going to learn all I can.

972
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:25,480
So I came out of my mission and
it was an an amazing experience.

973
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:30,040
I loved it.
My first area was Rawlins, WY,

974
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:33,480
which is the farthest from the
mission office.

975
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:38,720
I'd never been out West.
I'd never been on a plane, you

976
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:40,240
know.
So I flew to Utah and it was all

977
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:44,400
awesome.
MTC was fun, you know, learned a

978
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:48,680
lot.
Got to my first area, it was

979
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,760
amazing.
It was really difficult for me

980
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:57,720
to adjust to the mission rules
just because I hadn't grown up

981
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:01,560
in the church.
I was able to get out and do all

982
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:05,680
the studying and everything like
that, but I did kiss a girl in

983
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:08,920
my first area.
Yeah, that's a big no no, Tom.

984
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,880
Yep, I did.
It was crazy.

985
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:15,120
It happened.
And you know, the mission

986
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:19,000
president talked to me about it
and and I was deeply repentant.

987
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,920
I didn't want to make that
mistake, but I just couldn't

988
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:24,600
control myself.
And it happened.

989
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:29,640
And luckily that was all that
happened, you know, but the

990
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,520
mission president talked to me
and, and he was like, well, you

991
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,720
know, I should send you home.
And I was like, please don't

992
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:40,760
like I'm, I'm trying so hard.
I like, you know, I'm working

993
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:42,960
hard, like I'm praying for the
spirit.

994
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,960
I'm doing the best I can.
And he was like, no, no, you're,

995
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:48,520
you're doing great.
I'm not going to send you home,

996
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,240
but you need to, you need to
spend some serious time and

997
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,760
repentance and you need to
really focus.

998
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:58,480
And he told me he's like, if we,
if you get called into Utah,

999
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:02,920
it's only going to be worse.
Like the girls here that they

1000
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:05,360
love missionaries.
So you're going to have to be in

1001
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,760
control before you get called to
come into Utah.

1002
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:12,240
And I was like, OK, all right.
So I was in that first area for

1003
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:15,880
it was a while, I think 3 1/2
months.

1004
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:25,320
And then then I served in Logan
and then I was in Ogden and then

1005
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:28,960
in Bountiful.
And then when I was in

1006
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:35,600
Bountiful, things, things in my
mission took a an interesting

1007
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,160
turn.
So when I was in Bountiful, I

1008
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:41,840
became a district leader and
then eventually a zone leader.

1009
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:46,480
And because I was a zone leader,
I had 26 wards in my area.

1010
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:54,080
So at that point, I, I
determined that it might be in

1011
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:57,520
my best interest because that
we've done a lot of tracking and

1012
01:06:57,520 --> 01:06:59,920
door knocking and speaking to
people on the street.

1013
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:05,400
But there was, there was really
a push in our mission to help

1014
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:10,320
the members of the church to to
open their mouths to their

1015
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:14,200
friends and associates, to bring
them into their home to where

1016
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:15,240
the missionaries could meet
them.

1017
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:20,200
And we had a lot of difficulty
in getting the members to do

1018
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,320
that, which at the time
astounded me, but I get it now.

1019
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:25,520
Right.
What was this like, late 90s,

1020
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:27,360
early 2000s that this was going
on?

1021
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,040
I remember that time in the
church.

1022
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:32,880
Yeah, OK.
All right, I was on my mission

1023
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:39,720
in 2000, 2001.
So, so there we are.

1024
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:42,360
You know, we're in Bountiful and
we've got 26 wards.

1025
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:50,280
And so I start, we start doing
what we called exchanges,

1026
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:53,400
missionary splits.
So, you know, my companion would

1027
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:56,000
go with a member of the one of
the wards and I would too.

1028
01:07:56,000 --> 01:08:01,160
And we'd double our efforts.
And what I started doing was

1029
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:06,560
visiting as many wards as I
could and speaking in those

1030
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:13,680
wards and trying to let the
membership know who we were,

1031
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,479
that we were there, that we
wanted to teach the gospel.

1032
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:21,399
And when I gave these talks, I
would often bring books with me

1033
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:26,240
that I was purchasing at an
antique bookshop that was in

1034
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:30,680
Bountiful at the time and the
one that I still have on myself

1035
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,640
over here.
And I really held onto it a lot

1036
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:38,120
on my mission was like 1890
something edition of the

1037
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:42,880
teachings of John Taylor.
That's awesome.

1038
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:46,800
And because it was written by
president of the church, I was

1039
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:50,800
in the clear to read it.
And I would get up and I would I

1040
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:55,200
knew, I knew I couldn't speak
about plural marriage over the

1041
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:58,160
pulpit.
And I need I know I needed to be

1042
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:02,040
veiled about what I did say.
But I would often talk about

1043
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:08,399
consecration, United order, you
know, the establishment of Zion

1044
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,279
and the original reason the
Saints came to Utah.

1045
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:17,120
You know, those type doctrines,
things that would appeal to

1046
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,160
people more fundamentalist in
their thinking.

1047
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:24,279
Right now, at this point, are
you aware that that there's such

1048
01:09:24,279 --> 01:09:28,520
a thing as quote, a Mormon
fundamentalist is is this

1049
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:31,760
crossing your radar all at this
at all at this point?

1050
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:37,319
Are you like starting to figure
out because like, OK, so Full

1051
01:09:37,319 --> 01:09:43,720
disclosure, I was, I remember I
early, early on in my LDS days,

1052
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:46,960
I didn't mean to, I didn't
understand it, but there was a

1053
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:50,319
quote that kind of dovetailed
off Adam God right out of the

1054
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:54,600
journal of discourses.
And I, I quoted that in my talk.

1055
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:56,760
And I remember, I remember the
Bishop.

1056
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,480
He's like, that was a good talk,
but you need to be careful, son.

1057
01:10:01,440 --> 01:10:04,040
So the writing was on the wall,
I think from, from the various

1058
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,600
moment, early moments of of me
being a Mormon.

1059
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:11,440
But are, are you starting to
understand that, OK, there's

1060
01:10:11,440 --> 01:10:15,240
some knowledge here that that
the church isn't really

1061
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:19,400
comfortable with being talked
about openly, right?

1062
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,000
Or at least from the pulpit.
Let me say it that way.

1063
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:26,240
From the pulpit.
It's are you starting to

1064
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:29,080
understand that there's certain
people that believe these things

1065
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:32,480
that are practicing Mormonism
outside the LDS church?

1066
01:10:32,480 --> 01:10:34,120
Is that crossing your radar at
all?

1067
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:40,800
So at that point, I did not know
that there was a fundamentalist

1068
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:45,480
Mormon movement.
I I knew that there were various

1069
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:50,040
levels of understanding in the
church and I knew about plural

1070
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:54,760
marriage.
And yes, I had read quotes like

1071
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:58,680
the only ones that become gods,
even the sons of God or those

1072
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:01,600
that enter into polygamy.
I'd read things like this.

1073
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:07,360
But I still believe that the
church was in order and improper

1074
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:10,880
standing and that it had all the
ordinances for exaltation, the

1075
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:15,080
priesthood.
I I was still a good LDS member,

1076
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:20,440
but I considered myself a real
Mormon.

1077
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,480
That's what I I called it at
those days, which is a

1078
01:11:23,480 --> 01:11:28,520
fundamentalist.
I greatly lean towards the

1079
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,320
mysteries of that point.
It only takes so long to

1080
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:34,840
understand faith, repentance,
baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost.

1081
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:38,880
You know, sure, you can work on
your character your whole life,

1082
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:42,440
but understanding?
I was always seeking for more

1083
01:11:42,480 --> 01:11:47,480
and I was buying these books.
And one of the old stake centers

1084
01:11:47,480 --> 01:11:51,160
in Bountiful had a wonderful
little collection called the

1085
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:58,640
Journal of Discourses.
The gateway drug to

1086
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:04,120
fundamentalism.
So I read those and took notes

1087
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:08,000
and loved it.
And also so Bountiful was

1088
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:12,240
Bountiful was the turning point.
Also while in Bountiful out

1089
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:17,400
knocking doors one day, some
members were like, hey,

1090
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:21,520
neighbors over there.
We always tell the missionaries

1091
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:24,640
to leave them alone, but Elder
Bennett, you need to go knock on

1092
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:26,640
their door.
I was like, why?

1093
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:31,440
She goes, oh, you'll see day.
So I go over there and knock on

1094
01:12:31,440 --> 01:12:34,760
the door and it was the
Kingston's.

1095
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:39,120
OK.
And the man came to the door and

1096
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:40,840
he was like, I'm sorry, I'm not
interested.

1097
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:44,520
And I was like, you know, we
start talking just a little bit,

1098
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:49,200
and he tells me who he is.
And.

1099
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:53,560
And I'm just like, oh, my, what?
He's like, yeah, we're

1100
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:56,640
fundamentalist Mormons.
He goes, look, if you want to

1101
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:59,080
know about these things, you and
me to read this.

1102
01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:01,920
And he gave me a copy of the
Truth Magazine.

1103
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:06,840
And honestly, I never got a
chance to read it.

1104
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:10,440
I took it and my companion was
like, I don't think we're

1105
01:13:10,440 --> 01:13:13,160
supposed to have that.
And I remember bringing it back

1106
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:15,840
to the apartment and having it
in my desk.

1107
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:21,520
And my mission president, he
took my companion, told my

1108
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,440
mission president, and the
mission president asked me if

1109
01:13:24,440 --> 01:13:26,040
I'd read it.
And I told him no, I haven't

1110
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:28,840
read anything out of it yet.
And I'd love to look at it now.

1111
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:32,840
It was an original copy from, I
don't know, mid 50s, you know,

1112
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:36,800
And I said, no, I haven't read
anything about it goes well, you

1113
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:39,960
need to give it back.
And I said, OK, I'll, I'll give

1114
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,160
it back, you know.
So I took it back to the man and

1115
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:48,160
he told me you should meet more
of us.

1116
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,560
There's a family at this
address.

1117
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,160
Go, go meet them.
And so I went up there and I met

1118
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:57,360
this family.
It's also in Bountiful.

1119
01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:02,480
And this man invited to see him,
he was much younger than the man

1120
01:14:02,480 --> 01:14:06,880
we had met and he had three
wives, beautiful home.

1121
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:11,560
Everything seemed very nice.
And the family seemed to, you

1122
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:13,600
know, really get together, get
along well.

1123
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:18,400
And we started meeting with him
and he just mostly he, he wasn't

1124
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:20,840
going to join the LDS Church,
but he wanted to share with me a

1125
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:22,480
little bit about what the
Kingston's were.

1126
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:25,320
And I remember one day, and
you'll get a kick out of this

1127
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:28,480
looking around this super nice
house there up on the hill and

1128
01:14:28,480 --> 01:14:31,040
Bountiful.
And I said, if you don't mind me

1129
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:35,440
asking, how do you do this?
How do you, how do you

1130
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:37,960
monetarily take care of three
wives?

1131
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:42,280
And you got like what, 12 kids
and this super nice house.

1132
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:47,280
And he looked at and he smiled.
He goes, I have a contract with

1133
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:52,000
the LDS church.
And I said, doing what?

1134
01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:55,640
And he said, I am the man that
goes all over the world putting

1135
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:58,360
the floors in their temples.
He goes, but once they're

1136
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:02,720
dedicated, they won't let me in.
But that was his job.

1137
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:09,440
And I thought, huh, is the LDS
Church secretly supporting

1138
01:15:09,440 --> 01:15:12,320
polygamists financially?
Huh.

1139
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,800
Why would they hire this guy?
You know what I mean?

1140
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:17,480
And it could have been that they
just did great work.

1141
01:15:17,480 --> 01:15:19,680
But surely they would have
looked into him and known who he

1142
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:23,320
was, I would think.
And he told me that he got paid

1143
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:29,440
very, very, very well.
And then the final point to

1144
01:15:29,440 --> 01:15:32,120
answer your question about
fundamentalism and finding out

1145
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:35,640
that there was a proper
fundamentalist movement, there

1146
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:43,240
was a man in it, Bountiful, who
was a sealer in the Salt Lake

1147
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:49,680
Temple.
And he got to know me pretty

1148
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:54,680
good.
And this man was extremely,

1149
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,200
extremely knowledgeable about
the doctrines.

1150
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:00,080
You could bring up any topic and
he could just give you a

1151
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:03,480
discourse.
He just he knew his doctrine and

1152
01:16:03,480 --> 01:16:05,920
with with him, nothing was off
the table.

1153
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:10,800
And we got to where we were
starting to go on exchanges on

1154
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:13,520
a, you know, a couple times a
week basis.

1155
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:16,560
And he would say, do we have an
appointment tonight?

1156
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:21,640
And if we didn't, we would go
either to the park or his house

1157
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:23,960
and he'd say, what do you want
to learn tonight?

1158
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:26,240
And we would just get into
doctrine.

1159
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:31,480
And his main thing that he
impressed upon me over and over

1160
01:16:31,480 --> 01:16:35,240
again, he says, Tom, you got to
get, you're calling an election,

1161
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:38,200
made sure you need the second
anointing.

1162
01:16:39,440 --> 01:16:42,760
And I said, how do I do this?
He goes, well, first you've got

1163
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:46,720
to learn that the that the
rights and privileges of the

1164
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:49,400
Aaronic Priesthood are to
converse with angels.

1165
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:53,600
Are you conversing with angels?
I said no, I've never conversed

1166
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:55,040
with an Angel.
He said, well then we need to

1167
01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:58,040
teach you how to do it.
He said they can come and

1168
01:16:58,040 --> 01:16:59,880
physically appear to you and
teach you.

1169
01:17:00,480 --> 01:17:02,680
That's the right.
And the key of the Aaronic

1170
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:06,000
Priesthood and the Melchizedek
Priesthood is to bring you into

1171
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,160
the presence of the Father.
He said, can you get pres

1172
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:12,520
permission from your mission
president to come to the Salt

1173
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:15,720
Lake Temple?
And so I asked and I did get

1174
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:20,080
permission and he took me to the
solid temple and we went all

1175
01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:25,040
through the temple.
He showed me the just, just

1176
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:29,360
everything in the temple.
He showed me some blueprints

1177
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:32,920
from the city of Zion that
Joseph Smith himself had drawn

1178
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:36,240
up that I guess at that time
were in the temple.

1179
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:37,320
I don't know if they're kept
there.

1180
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:40,960
And he showed me the room.
The Holy of Holies didn't go

1181
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:45,600
inside of it, but he showed it
to me, showed me all kinds of

1182
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:47,400
things, taught me in the
celestial room.

1183
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:50,120
It's an awesome experience.
Did not see angels or have

1184
01:17:50,120 --> 01:17:53,400
visions.
But after that we went back to

1185
01:17:53,440 --> 01:17:59,400
his house and he said I've been
very hesitant to do this, but

1186
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:01,200
I've received witness that it's
right.

1187
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:06,320
I'm going to tell you something
and show you something, but

1188
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:10,440
after you know you are
accountable and you must act on

1189
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:13,200
it, Are you ready to do the will
of the Lord?

1190
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:16,760
And I said, yes, I, I am what?
What do you have to show me?

1191
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:23,600
And I had not met his family.
He had two wives.

1192
01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:27,640
OK, hold on, hold on.
OK.

1193
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:31,120
So we're talking somewhere
around the year 2000 or 2001,

1194
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:39,440
there is a sealer in the LDS
Church that one starts talking

1195
01:18:39,440 --> 01:18:42,160
to you about like second
anointing stuff, not passing it

1196
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:45,120
on, but talking to you about it.
Yes, encouraging me to seek it,

1197
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:47,160
yeah.
Encourage you to to to seek

1198
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:48,800
after those mysteries.
Yep.

1199
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:53,120
Then he gives you and and your
mission president signed off on

1200
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:59,240
you going with with the sealer
to get a tour of the Salt Lake

1201
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:01,840
Temple.
Yes, to go through an endowment

1202
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:05,040
session and go to the temple.
OK, so you went through a

1203
01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:08,160
session and then then he showed
you other stuff while you were

1204
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:10,520
there.
So did he used to be a worker

1205
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:12,840
there or?
He was a sealer at the time.

1206
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:17,440
But he was a sealer in
Bountiful, not Salt Lake OR.

1207
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:20,360
Go in in Salt Lake.
Oh, he was a sealer in Salt Lake

1208
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:22,760
but lived in Bountiful.
Yes, that's.

1209
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:26,080
Kind of different because
usually those guys are usually

1210
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:28,760
assigned to their their area,
but whoa.

1211
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:32,120
And then he takes you to his
place, and he introduces you to

1212
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:34,320
his plural family.
Yes.

1213
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:35,760
How old?
Is this?

1214
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:40,960
Guy, I would say he was probably
in his late 50s.

1215
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:48,160
OK, so.
And I remember his name, but

1216
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:51,120
just like the other guy, I I'll
never, I never tell it to

1217
01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:53,760
anybody.
No, no, don't look, especially

1218
01:19:53,760 --> 01:19:56,840
on here.
Yeah, no, I won't do that.

1219
01:19:57,120 --> 01:20:00,320
I I yeah, I have.
I have some ideas, but maybe you

1220
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:04,800
and I will talk off the air.
I'll, I'll, I'll light up that

1221
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:08,240
little part.
I, I, so the, the first guy in

1222
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:13,280
Georgia, I, I've been able to
look him up and, and see that

1223
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:16,680
he's still in the church and,
and I found his Facebook.

1224
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:20,880
But this second man, I've never
been able to find him on

1225
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,160
Facebook or any social media.
And it might just because he's

1226
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:26,160
older, and I mean now he would
be.

1227
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:29,920
Dude in the 70s.
Yeah, late 70s.

1228
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:35,720
I'm 43 now and I was 20.
So yeah, once he introduced me

1229
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:39,880
to his wives and I had a
testimony of it.

1230
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:46,240
But when?
When it got brought to me that

1231
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:53,800
way, I remember just being like,
OK, it's one thing to believe

1232
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:55,920
and another to put into
practice.

1233
01:20:56,440 --> 01:20:57,320
Are you that?
Would freak.

1234
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:01,240
That would freak anybody out.
It freaked me out pretty good.

1235
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:03,880
And it wasn't that like, I
didn't feel like he was wrong

1236
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:08,120
in, in presenting this and I
felt honored that he would let

1237
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:12,800
me know about his family, But I
was, it was just a matter of do

1238
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:15,960
you go that far?
Like you believe, but are you

1239
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:19,560
really going to do it?
And my, my family had it no

1240
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:21,440
problem with me joining the LDS
church.

1241
01:21:21,440 --> 01:21:24,360
They were bothered that I was
going to leave for two years on

1242
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:26,520
a mission.
They tried to my dad's like,

1243
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:29,520
just save the money and build a
house instead.

1244
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:32,080
Don't, don't go on a mission,
just a down payment on a house.

1245
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:34,880
It's silly of you to give this
money to your church and go away

1246
01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:36,920
for two years.
Like, don't do it.

1247
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:39,160
I was like, no, I'm doing it.
He's like, OK, well, if that's

1248
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:40,280
what you're doing, you're doing
it.

1249
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:44,760
But I figured that if I was
going to practice plural

1250
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:48,480
marriage, that might be a little
bit more than my family and

1251
01:21:48,480 --> 01:21:50,960
associates could bear, and
definitely more than the church

1252
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:54,040
could bear, which at that point
meant the world to me.

1253
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:59,800
And so I remember just kind of
being in a stupor and not

1254
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:06,200
knowing what to say and wanting
to have time to think about it.

1255
01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:10,560
And him just firmly, but still
politely just being like, no, I

1256
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:15,880
need to know yes or no.
And I remember just being like,

1257
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:18,400
no.
And I remember he just hung his

1258
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:20,520
head and kind of like went like
this.

1259
01:22:20,520 --> 01:22:24,480
I was like, you have my word
that I will never reveal this.

1260
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:28,080
You know, your family.
I'll never, I'll never share

1261
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:30,080
this with people.
And you know, in a way that

1262
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:34,920
could get you in trouble.
But I, I, I don't, I don't think

1263
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:39,200
I could do this.
And he just said the church

1264
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:42,880
needs to be put in order, has to
be done from the inside.

1265
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:46,880
He said I already have the land
to start a united order near

1266
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:49,800
Ogden.
It's time to put the church in

1267
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:51,680
order.
And I need you to help me.

1268
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:56,320
And I just remember being like,
what is this guy?

1269
01:22:56,840 --> 01:23:00,400
Who who does he think I am to
help him?

1270
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:03,560
And who does he think he is to
do this?

1271
01:23:03,560 --> 01:23:07,120
I know he's a real spiritual
teacher and that he's a

1272
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:11,760
righteous man, but I don't, I
can't do this.

1273
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:22,320
And I walked away, and I will
tell you that from that day the

1274
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:27,960
Spirit began to rapidly go from
me very, very quickly and

1275
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:30,520
strongly.
OK, stop there, because I want

1276
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:32,120
to make sure I have a detail
right here.

1277
01:23:32,480 --> 01:23:35,440
You met the sealer through one
of the Kingstons, is that

1278
01:23:35,440 --> 01:23:38,000
correct?
No, I I met him just while

1279
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:40,760
serving in Bountiful.
OK.

1280
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:43,600
The Kingston me telling you
about the Kingston's just

1281
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:47,400
showing you or just sharing we
do that in Bountiful was kind of

1282
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:49,920
this.
The bookstore finding the

1283
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:54,040
Journal of Discourses, meeting
Kingston people was kind of a

1284
01:23:54,040 --> 01:24:00,360
coming together of me becoming
aware of fundamentalism.

1285
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:03,680
But no, the two things were not
necessarily connected.

1286
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:08,080
So did you just meet this happen
to meet the sealer at A at a

1287
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:11,120
like a church meeting or
something?

1288
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:13,080
I mean, how'd you come into
contact with him?

1289
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:16,600
After speaking in all those
wards, it wasn't uncommon for

1290
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:20,560
people to come up afterwards.
I remember like a lot of times,

1291
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:23,440
like really old men in their 80s
and 90s will come up and shake

1292
01:24:23,440 --> 01:24:26,680
your hand and like give you that
look and be like, I heard real

1293
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:30,520
Mormonism today, you know,
rather Bennett speaking real

1294
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:34,400
Mormonism up there, you know,
and, and he was one of those

1295
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:38,360
people that, you know, came up
to me and was like, Hey, you

1296
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:41,520
should come over and have dinner
with my family and, and learn a

1297
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:44,760
little bit more, you know, and.
Interesting.

1298
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:49,200
And it evolved.
Yes, OK, so back, back to your

1299
01:24:49,200 --> 01:24:51,640
story here.
You said you you ended up

1300
01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:55,360
turning them down, right?
Just just too much too fast,

1301
01:24:56,760 --> 01:25:00,160
which I, I can't blame you that
much for just about anybody.

1302
01:25:01,480 --> 01:25:04,080
But you said you immediately
felt the Spirit start to leave.

1303
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:06,520
Yes, I did.
Yes, I did.

1304
01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:10,440
I've come to understand that
we're accountable for any

1305
01:25:10,440 --> 01:25:14,240
principle that that we that we
gain through the spirit and if

1306
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:17,360
we deny it, we're at risk of, of
losing the spirit.

1307
01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:25,760
And now I don't know that this
man had authority to, you know,

1308
01:25:26,480 --> 01:25:30,840
to even make that happen or if
everything was in the right

1309
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:34,160
order for it to be.
I, I don't know, I don't know,

1310
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:37,320
and I don't even bother to look
into that right now or at this

1311
01:25:37,320 --> 01:25:39,520
point because it wouldn't change
the past.

1312
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:47,760
But I do know that that I was
presented a holy principle, a

1313
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:51,600
crowning principle.
And though I believed in it, I

1314
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:54,240
denied it, which is probably
even worse than not believing in

1315
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:58,120
it and denying it.
And the spirit began to, to go

1316
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:03,720
from me.
And it wasn't all together just

1317
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:06,680
gone, but it was just a very
rapid decline.

1318
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:12,440
And I finished my mission not
long afterwards, you know,

1319
01:26:12,440 --> 01:26:17,800
completed the two years.
And I remember in the last few

1320
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:24,080
days, I felt like, just like, to
use the phrase like all the

1321
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:27,080
glory had gone from me.
Like just at the very end there,

1322
01:26:27,080 --> 01:26:29,400
I was just like, I don't even
feel like I'm a missionary.

1323
01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:33,080
Like I I'm doing the work to the
best of my ability, but I just,

1324
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:35,160
the spirit is gone.
I just you're.

1325
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:36,680
Just going through the motions,
yeah.

1326
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:40,360
It's a normal man out here half
heartedly talking about

1327
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:43,720
something that he kind of thinks
about that it wasn't running

1328
01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:47,320
door to door like I once did and
having the words put in my mouth

1329
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:49,920
to speak the truth.
You know what I mean, right?

1330
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:56,120
Spirit was gone and with it I, I
used to describe it to people.

1331
01:26:56,640 --> 01:27:02,040
So this turned into about a 20
year period that I'll refer to

1332
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:06,560
as just riotous living.
Finished my mission, went home,

1333
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:10,840
went in, reported on my mission,
went to church a few more times

1334
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:11,840
and it was just kind of like
that.

1335
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:15,640
I'm done.
I remember I specifically went

1336
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:20,280
down to downtown Atlanta, bought
a bottle of liquor and sat down

1337
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:24,400
on the curb and drank it and
cried and was just like, it's

1338
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:27,640
gone, it's over.
You think that's just all a

1339
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:32,720
byproduct of of not learning
more from this one?

1340
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:35,520
Man out and bountiful.
I think it was just not

1341
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:39,360
necessarily that, but rejecting
a true principle.

1342
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:42,000
It's like if you're asking, if
you're asking the Lord to lead

1343
01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:46,880
you along and he's doing it, and
then he finally leads you up

1344
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:50,320
into those upper higher
principles, the celestial

1345
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:54,800
principles, and you refuse,
you're going to lose the Spirit.

1346
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:58,720
It's just you cannot have an
eternal law presented to you

1347
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:02,200
and, and turn from it and just
be like, well, I'll still

1348
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:05,280
believe this and this, you know,
right, you're, you're going to

1349
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:07,600
lose the Spirit.
And like we were like we were

1350
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:11,520
talking earlier, the ability to
do righteousness is a gift of

1351
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:15,440
the Spirit.
And no one can even know that

1352
01:28:15,440 --> 01:28:19,160
Jesus is the Christ unless by
the spirit of prophecy, right?

1353
01:28:19,400 --> 01:28:23,400
So if you lose the Spirit,
you're going to, you're at risk

1354
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:26,400
at least.
And it was my experience that

1355
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:30,000
you're eventually going to lose
all the light and truth that you

1356
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:32,720
possess.
So though at though at one time

1357
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:38,600
I knew a great deal about the
doctrines of, of the Kingdom and

1358
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:43,920
was living them to at least a
degree in which I was trying to

1359
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:47,320
have the spirit to a great
degree and serving a mission and

1360
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:50,680
doing all that, I lost it nearly
completely.

1361
01:28:51,320 --> 01:29:00,360
And I, I loved Utah and just as
a place, the natural beauty,

1362
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:04,720
just everything about Utah.
So I decided that I would move

1363
01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:09,160
back to Utah, but just as just
as a man.

1364
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:13,520
So I packed all my things in
Georgia and I drove back to Utah

1365
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:19,360
and got to Salt Lake and tried
to reconnect with people.

1366
01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:22,120
I knew them on my mission, but
they really didn't have any

1367
01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:27,120
interest in being around me and
probably because of my loss of

1368
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:34,000
the spirit and not going to
church and just fell into about

1369
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:38,000
20 years of literally nothing
short of righteous, riotous

1370
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:41,720
living.
I, I studied, I still, I still

1371
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:46,480
wanted to study and and progress
in whatever way I could.

1372
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:50,760
And so I studied Tibet and
Buddhism for quite a while until

1373
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:53,840
I got pretty deep into that too
and found us some fundamental

1374
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:57,320
flaws that made me walk away
from that as well.

1375
01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:00,960
Till still took good principles
from it, but left it behind as a

1376
01:30:01,080 --> 01:30:07,280
as a philosophy and a religion.
And then I ended up learning

1377
01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:13,480
about Hermes and and
Hermeticism.

1378
01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:18,160
But it just a very surface level
understanding and various occult

1379
01:30:18,160 --> 01:30:19,680
traditions from around the
world.

1380
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:25,520
Well, I studied everything and I
would still be interested in in

1381
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:28,320
Mormon things, but I didn't
necessarily believe them,

1382
01:30:28,320 --> 01:30:32,520
certainly didn't know them.
And I even gave a couple talks

1383
01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:37,640
at Sunstone during that time and
appeared on the Year of Polygamy

1384
01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:41,920
podcast and shared my story with
Lindsay Anson Park.

1385
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:46,320
Do do you think that a lot of
what you what you're doing in

1386
01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:49,240
those years is trying to replace
what you originally felt?

1387
01:30:50,360 --> 01:30:55,880
Oh yeah, for sure, for sure.
I remember specifically thinking

1388
01:30:55,880 --> 01:31:01,720
about times where I felt the
Spirit very strongly and wishing

1389
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:05,560
I could get that in my life and
just somehow being completely

1390
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:07,360
unable to put it together as
well.

1391
01:31:07,800 --> 01:31:10,680
To get the Spirit, the fruits of
the Spirit, you need to do the

1392
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:13,720
things that brings the Spirit.
Because once the testimony was

1393
01:31:13,720 --> 01:31:19,640
gone, it was just like, it was
almost like my mind had been

1394
01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:24,760
erased, like I just, I lost the
knowledge that I'd had and I

1395
01:31:24,760 --> 01:31:29,200
could even look back.
I never denied, I didn't talk

1396
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:32,000
about them often, but I never
denied my personal visions that

1397
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:34,200
I had.
But it was just like there was a

1398
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,520
wall.
Like people talk about the veil.

1399
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:39,880
This wasn't a veil soluble wall.
Like it was like a bubble had

1400
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:43,440
burst and I just didn't know it
anymore.

1401
01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:46,600
It was strange.
I remember even walking into a

1402
01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:50,000
bar with a bunch of friends one
night and taking off my Ctr.

1403
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:53,000
ring and throwing it over the
fence and just going inside and

1404
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:57,480
just getting completely drunk,
you know, just drunk, drunk.

1405
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:00,760
And did that hundreds of
thousands, hundreds of nights,

1406
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:03,960
thousands of nights.
I did all kinds of different

1407
01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:08,640
drugs over the next years,
became addicted to cocaine, got

1408
01:32:08,640 --> 01:32:12,440
arrested for selling cocaine and
luckily did not get convicted.

1409
01:32:12,440 --> 01:32:15,760
So I'm still a, I'm not a
convicted felon, praise the

1410
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:19,720
Lord.
And after, after getting that

1411
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:25,040
far gone, decided I needed to
try to make it right.

1412
01:32:25,120 --> 01:32:28,640
And I got a job with a youth
program and started teaching

1413
01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:33,000
kids after school programs and
helping kids, you know, get

1414
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:35,560
their lives in order.
And so I was starting to do a

1415
01:32:35,560 --> 01:32:40,840
little bit of good, started
playing music full time at some

1416
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:44,480
point back in 2013, traveling
the country.

1417
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:50,120
And every, every so often, maybe
once a year or something,

1418
01:32:50,840 --> 01:32:55,080
something would happen where I
would experience just a subtle

1419
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:58,640
outpouring of the Spirit.
And, you know, I might be

1420
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:01,520
driving through some beautiful
place in the desert and see

1421
01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:05,600
something just remarkable and
pull over and, and get out and

1422
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:09,160
pray and just give thanks.
But it wasn't very often.

1423
01:33:09,440 --> 01:33:12,360
But it was always sincere,
sincere when I felt to do it.

1424
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:18,360
But I was definitely outside the
bounds of the spirit to a large

1425
01:33:18,360 --> 01:33:21,760
degree.
And time went on.

1426
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:26,480
I eventually met a woman, got
married, had a daughter.

1427
01:33:28,840 --> 01:33:33,000
You know, I've always tried to
be a good dad, but just going

1428
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:36,440
off the best amount of
understanding and things and

1429
01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:41,200
things really turned around
again, literally fulfilling

1430
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:44,680
scripture for me personally in
my life of the hearts of the

1431
01:33:44,680 --> 01:33:47,680
children turning to the fathers
and the hearts of the fathers

1432
01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:51,160
turning to the children, lest
the whole earth be smitten with

1433
01:33:51,160 --> 01:33:55,440
a curse.
My my five year old daughter

1434
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:59,160
walked in the room one day.
I was in the kitchen making food

1435
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:03,880
and she said, dad, I want to
pray now.

1436
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:10,960
My ex-wife grew up in a very
strict, like, fundamentalist

1437
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:14,520
Christian home where she was
homeschooled her whole life,

1438
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:18,280
raised with very, very firm
rules.

1439
01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:22,800
And so she became very against
those kind of things.

1440
01:34:23,240 --> 01:34:26,720
And we'd agreed to raise our
daughter with no religion, just

1441
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:29,480
be good parents, but no
religion.

1442
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:33,520
So my daughter walks in at just
over five years old and wants to

1443
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:39,080
pray.
And I say, well, OK, go ahead

1444
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:42,800
and pray then.
And she goes, OK, Heavenly

1445
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:46,920
Mother and Heavenly Father.
And she starts praying like

1446
01:34:46,920 --> 01:34:50,320
that.
And I'm thinking, who taught her

1447
01:34:50,320 --> 01:34:53,840
this?
You know, like Heavenly Father

1448
01:34:53,840 --> 01:34:56,640
and mother, this is this is
really cool.

1449
01:34:56,960 --> 01:34:59,120
And she gives this prayer.
She's like, I'm so thankful for

1450
01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:02,520
my dad.
He's a good dad and I pray for

1451
01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:05,840
him and I, I hope he's happy and
good.

1452
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:08,760
And my mom and she, she prayed
for her parents.

1453
01:35:09,440 --> 01:35:17,240
And when she did, the Spirit
came upon me so strongly that

1454
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:24,240
right then and there it was as
if all the testimony and

1455
01:35:24,240 --> 01:35:29,440
knowledge that I had lost just
instantly came back.

1456
01:35:30,160 --> 01:35:33,400
A pure gift of the Spirit wasn't
anything that I did.

1457
01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:38,040
It was her, her prayer for me.
And it came back and I made-up

1458
01:35:38,040 --> 01:35:43,400
my mind right then that I was
going to get right with God and

1459
01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:52,120
I would never again be afraid or
a coward and leave any

1460
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:54,840
principle.
And I would, I would pursue the

1461
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:56,840
truth though, just like I had
been.

1462
01:35:56,840 --> 01:36:00,080
I pick up right where I'd left
off and I'd pray for forgiveness

1463
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:02,040
and I would.
I would do what I needed to do.

1464
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:09,000
And for the last eight years,
I've been putting on a music

1465
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:15,120
festival down in Colorado City.
And sometimes, out of curiosity,

1466
01:36:15,480 --> 01:36:18,000
I visit hold.
On one second, I want to go back

1467
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:19,920
to this this account with your
daughter.

1468
01:36:20,280 --> 01:36:23,360
So at this time, are you and
your wife currently married?

1469
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:28,040
No, we're we, we are divorced.
OK, so you're probably hanging

1470
01:36:28,040 --> 01:36:30,000
out around rock bottom at this
point.

1471
01:36:30,440 --> 01:36:34,280
Yeah, yeah, I was.
But I was also in a place where

1472
01:36:35,040 --> 01:36:42,320
I was trying to rebuild my life
and and get things as good as I

1473
01:36:42,360 --> 01:36:45,360
as I could.
Mostly I was working on my

1474
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:50,080
physical health that I had
started going and exercising and

1475
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:53,360
hiking a lot.
And I've been meditating and

1476
01:36:53,360 --> 01:36:56,000
kind of getting back into my
Buddhist studies a little bit.

1477
01:36:56,880 --> 01:36:59,680
Just on the level of meditation,
though, Not like really taking

1478
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:04,680
it to to religiously, but just
meditating and trying to trying

1479
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:10,880
to look at my own errors in my
life and, and, and get myself in

1480
01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:15,600
a condition where I could just
become a good person, you know,

1481
01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:19,680
and, and move forward, you know,
after this divorce and

1482
01:37:19,880 --> 01:37:25,160
definitely be a good dad, which
my daughter is very easy to

1483
01:37:25,160 --> 01:37:27,920
raise.
Like she's just just a very

1484
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:31,760
obedient, sweet, kind kid.
So luckily she at this time was

1485
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:34,040
more of a teacher to me probably
than I was to her.

1486
01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:38,080
Not that I was doing anything
wrong like, but just she's a,

1487
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:40,240
she's a little spiritual giant,
you know, and.

1488
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:41,760
Sure.
And just.

1489
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:43,800
Was great.
Did you ever figure out where

1490
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:46,320
she got the concept of a
Heavenly Mother from?

1491
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:50,840
No idea, the only thing I could
think of that would have even

1492
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:57,520
brought it to her mind to pray
was my ex wife's fiance comes

1493
01:37:57,520 --> 01:38:02,480
from an LDS family and sometimes
go get together and have meals

1494
01:38:02,480 --> 01:38:07,440
and pray and I think she saw
prayer there and liked it OK so

1495
01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:09,600
she wanted to pray with me.
Interesting.

1496
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:12,280
Yeah.
OK.

1497
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:15,560
So you were you were going on to
to Colorado City.

1498
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:21,080
Yeah, so I, I did like a lot of
people over the years, always

1499
01:38:21,080 --> 01:38:24,560
was still interested in
Mormonism, but just didn't

1500
01:38:24,560 --> 01:38:29,200
really accept it as like the
fullness of the gospel, you

1501
01:38:29,200 --> 01:38:33,520
know, as what it as I didn't
take Mormonism on its own terms.

1502
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:36,640
And it's, you know, it's, it's
still fascinating no matter what

1503
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:39,320
you think about it, whether
you're going to practice it or

1504
01:38:39,320 --> 01:38:42,360
not.
And on one of my tours, I had

1505
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:45,880
come up the middle of Arizona
and was astounded by the beauty

1506
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:48,480
of everything I saw.
And then I'm getting to the, the

1507
01:38:48,480 --> 01:38:52,920
state line of Utah and I look
over and I'm like, Oh my gosh,

1508
01:38:52,960 --> 01:38:56,200
there's Colorado City.
Like I've watched documentaries

1509
01:38:56,200 --> 01:38:58,160
about this place.
This is, you know, of course I

1510
01:38:58,160 --> 01:39:01,320
knew all about, you know, plural
marriage.

1511
01:39:01,320 --> 01:39:04,480
And by this point I even knew
about 1886 and all those things.

1512
01:39:04,480 --> 01:39:09,400
I just didn't have testimony of
any of it, was aware of it.

1513
01:39:09,880 --> 01:39:13,920
So I'd go into Colorado City,
pull over, I put on a long

1514
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:17,000
sleeve shirt, put on a ball cap,
just try to be respectful.

1515
01:39:17,480 --> 01:39:20,960
And I get out of my car and I'm
walking around Cottonwood Park,

1516
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:24,640
which is the UEP park, the
United Plan Park.

1517
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:28,000
And I'm walking around and a guy
pulls up to me and he's, he's

1518
01:39:28,000 --> 01:39:30,640
like, hey, are you lost?
No, I'm not lost.

1519
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:32,320
I know where I am.
Oh, do you?

1520
01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:35,200
What do you know?
And I was like, well, in 1886,

1521
01:39:35,880 --> 01:39:37,760
you know?
And I give him a little rundown

1522
01:39:37,760 --> 01:39:39,320
of the origins of
fundamentalism.

1523
01:39:39,320 --> 01:39:42,400
He's like, man, you do know what
you do know about this place?

1524
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:45,520
Would you like a tour?
Yeah.

1525
01:39:46,280 --> 01:39:48,720
Follow me.
So it takes me up the road to

1526
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:52,960
Maxwell Park, which is gorgeous,
you know.

1527
01:39:52,960 --> 01:39:54,280
What?
What year would this have been,

1528
01:39:54,280 --> 01:39:58,080
Tom?
2014 or 15?

1529
01:39:59,440 --> 01:40:02,360
OK, so this is well after
Warren's gone to jail.

1530
01:40:02,720 --> 01:40:05,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Town is starting to have a lot

1531
01:40:05,600 --> 01:40:07,480
of people move back into it at
that point.

1532
01:40:07,480 --> 01:40:11,240
And, you know, I think the
brewery was opening or No, no,

1533
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:13,160
it wasn't open yet.
The brewery would be opening

1534
01:40:13,160 --> 01:40:17,640
soon and there were a lot of ex
FLDS people moving back and

1535
01:40:17,640 --> 01:40:22,960
trying to to make the town nice.
So I go up to Maxwell and I see

1536
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:27,040
all these FLDS kids playing
kickball and I'm like, man, I

1537
01:40:27,040 --> 01:40:31,480
really want to play with these
kids super bad and talk to them,

1538
01:40:31,480 --> 01:40:33,920
you know?
But I've been told they're not

1539
01:40:33,920 --> 01:40:36,400
going to talk to an outsider.
So I get out my guitar in

1540
01:40:36,400 --> 01:40:40,040
harmonica and start quietly
playing and they surround me.

1541
01:40:40,440 --> 01:40:43,920
And I had some, I was sponsored
by Harmonica company.

1542
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:46,440
So I start giving away
harmonicas and I'm looking

1543
01:40:46,440 --> 01:40:48,040
around.
I'm like, I want to put on a

1544
01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:51,720
concert here.
I end up moving to Saint George

1545
01:40:52,160 --> 01:40:56,800
and FLDSXFLDS.
People start coming to my

1546
01:40:56,800 --> 01:40:59,120
concerts and I make friends with
them.

1547
01:40:59,120 --> 01:41:02,360
They take me on hikes out there,
show me around, tell me what it

1548
01:41:02,360 --> 01:41:07,240
was like growing up FLDS.
And most of them had wonderful

1549
01:41:07,240 --> 01:41:09,800
stories about their childhood.
They're like, oh, it was heaven

1550
01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:11,680
on earth.
The mothers were wonderful.

1551
01:41:11,680 --> 01:41:14,960
The church was awesome.
Most of them did not have bad

1552
01:41:14,960 --> 01:41:19,360
experiences.
And I always made a point of

1553
01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:22,800
telling people whenever I hear
them talking about the FLDS, I'm

1554
01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:27,240
like, hey, a lot of that stuff
was simply Warren Jeffs and two

1555
01:41:27,240 --> 01:41:29,840
or three other men, and it
reflects upon the whole

1556
01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:31,400
community.
But it wasn't their actions.

1557
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:32,720
There's a lot of good people
there.

1558
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:35,480
I know hundreds of them and I
always try to share that with

1559
01:41:35,480 --> 01:41:38,840
people, even writing a song
about it called All My Wives.

1560
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:47,640
And so I end up, I end up
putting on a concert in a bakery

1561
01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:51,320
in Colorado City, which ends up
becoming a full on music

1562
01:41:51,320 --> 01:41:54,440
festival called the Colorado
City Music Festival.

1563
01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:58,160
And we've done that now for
eight years at this point, but

1564
01:41:58,160 --> 01:42:00,000
we're not doing it next year
'cause they're renovating the

1565
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:02,400
park, but we've done it for
eight years.

1566
01:42:02,840 --> 01:42:05,800
I've met hundreds of people that
were FLDS.

1567
01:42:06,400 --> 01:42:11,720
And around this time, I also
start getting hired to play at

1568
01:42:12,160 --> 01:42:15,320
Bee's grocery store in Colorado
City.

1569
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:25,680
And at these shows, I notice
that that a lot of people that

1570
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:29,480
are coming out are from
Centennial Park, which your

1571
01:42:29,480 --> 01:42:33,200
listeners may know is a
different fundamentalist group

1572
01:42:33,200 --> 01:42:36,880
that has origins in the same
movement.

1573
01:42:36,920 --> 01:42:40,240
You know, a lot of people say
they're a break off of the FLDS,

1574
01:42:40,240 --> 01:42:43,040
but technically it's not really
quite true.

1575
01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:48,080
But they were part of that
original priesthood council and

1576
01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:57,160
followed JM Hammond and Alma A
Timpson after around the times

1577
01:42:57,160 --> 01:43:03,000
that Roland Jeffs, you know,
came into leadership, they

1578
01:43:03,160 --> 01:43:04,560
didn't believe in the one man
role.

1579
01:43:04,560 --> 01:43:07,480
They believed it should be a
council in essence.

1580
01:43:07,680 --> 01:43:13,840
So I was around these people and
somebody said, yeah, that guy

1581
01:43:13,840 --> 01:43:16,960
right over there is one of the
apostles on the priesthood

1582
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:20,480
council.
So I had met him, but I didn't

1583
01:43:20,480 --> 01:43:24,400
know that's who and what he was.
So I went up and talked to him

1584
01:43:24,400 --> 01:43:28,560
and I asked him.
I said I have learned a lot

1585
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:34,560
about fundamentalism and I've
recently recommitted to, you

1586
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:36,920
know, to following the ways of
the Lord.

1587
01:43:37,080 --> 01:43:39,040
Would it be OK if we sat down
sometime?

1588
01:43:39,040 --> 01:43:41,120
I have a few questions and
things I want to know.

1589
01:43:41,720 --> 01:43:44,640
And he said, absolutely, of
course we can do that.

1590
01:43:45,080 --> 01:43:49,720
So the next week we we met
together and had a private lunch

1591
01:43:50,240 --> 01:43:55,680
and talked for about two hours.
And he said, look, you

1592
01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:58,280
understand these principles just
fine.

1593
01:43:59,800 --> 01:44:01,800
Have you ever had the
opportunity to see them in

1594
01:44:01,800 --> 01:44:05,680
practice?
And I, I said, well, not, not

1595
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:06,520
really.
He was.

1596
01:44:06,520 --> 01:44:13,000
You need to, you need to see the
principal in, in practice and

1597
01:44:13,000 --> 01:44:15,000
in, in practice correctly.
You need to see it.

1598
01:44:16,520 --> 01:44:21,880
So he invited my fiance to and I
to his house on Mother's Day.

1599
01:44:22,720 --> 01:44:29,760
And it was heaven on earth.
The the spirit was so strong,

1600
01:44:30,320 --> 01:44:32,840
the harmony in the home was so
remarkable.

1601
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:37,240
The children were so well
behaved and good.

1602
01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:40,920
And we were treated so kindly.
I don't think anyone could deny

1603
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:46,000
the spirit that was there.
And me and my fiance left just

1604
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:50,240
kind of amazed.
And I told her, I don't know

1605
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:52,160
about you.
I know you don't believe in

1606
01:44:52,160 --> 01:44:56,520
these things, but I'm, I'm going
to, I'm going to join this, this

1607
01:44:56,520 --> 01:44:59,480
priesthood work.
And she said, OK, I'll stay with

1608
01:44:59,480 --> 01:45:01,080
you.
I'll be with you, I'll come to

1609
01:45:01,080 --> 01:45:03,800
church with you.
And, and I like these people

1610
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:05,240
too.
I think it's wonderful.

1611
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:07,960
You know, I'm not a believer,
but I love you.

1612
01:45:08,640 --> 01:45:11,200
So do do what you feel you need
to do.

1613
01:45:11,480 --> 01:45:16,360
So I started going to church and
I was baptized into the work of

1614
01:45:16,360 --> 01:45:23,320
Jesus Christ in July.
And and on November 11th, I was

1615
01:45:23,320 --> 01:45:25,000
ordering to the Melchizedek
Priesthood.

1616
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:30,240
That's where I am.
So let let me ask you this

1617
01:45:30,240 --> 01:45:35,440
question as as you've, as you've
looked back at all of this,

1618
01:45:35,440 --> 01:45:43,880
what's do you, what's your sense
of, of kind of like what this

1619
01:45:43,880 --> 01:45:47,680
did for you this journey, right?
Because on one hand, I would

1620
01:45:47,680 --> 01:45:51,040
imagine you'd have been fun.
You probably look back on one

1621
01:45:51,040 --> 01:45:53,320
hand and go, yeah, I should have
just, you know, stuck to my

1622
01:45:53,320 --> 01:45:55,000
principle.
So sort of a thing.

1623
01:45:55,520 --> 01:45:58,880
But you got to experience some
things along the way, right?

1624
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:00,400
I mean, what is it?
You just like.

1625
01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:02,440
You've learned from your
journey.

1626
01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:11,480
I I believe that the work of the
Lord is going to take place no

1627
01:46:11,480 --> 01:46:13,160
matter what.
I've heard a lot of

1628
01:46:13,160 --> 01:46:15,720
fundamentalists say the gospel
is true whether I believe it or

1629
01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:18,560
not.
I think that was the saying from

1630
01:46:18,560 --> 01:46:21,120
one of the brethren early in the
priesthood council days.

1631
01:46:21,920 --> 01:46:26,520
And it it really is.
And one thing I've also heard

1632
01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:33,200
said a lot at Centennial Park is
there's always the question to

1633
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:36,200
different fundamentalists.
How does your group feel about

1634
01:46:36,200 --> 01:46:40,160
the LDS Church?
And I have heard brethren on the

1635
01:46:40,160 --> 01:46:44,880
priesthood councils get up and
say the the Lord is the Lord

1636
01:46:44,880 --> 01:46:48,880
Jesus Christ and he, he can
raise up sons of Abraham from

1637
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:51,760
stones.
He's working through the LDS

1638
01:46:51,760 --> 01:46:57,240
Church in many ways.
He's working through everyone

1639
01:46:57,240 --> 01:47:00,560
you meet in every religion, in
every philosophy.

1640
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:04,840
He's working with even people
that are evil to do the purposes

1641
01:47:04,840 --> 01:47:11,840
that he has for his children.
And me personally, I know that I

1642
01:47:11,840 --> 01:47:15,440
have been blessed in ways that
are so remarkable.

1643
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:20,040
I have lived so righteously that
most couldn't even believe it.

1644
01:47:20,480 --> 01:47:28,080
Just the the level of just
what's the word I'm looking for?

1645
01:47:28,280 --> 01:47:30,800
Like I've literally behaved as
an enemy to God.

1646
01:47:31,280 --> 01:47:35,800
I have done things.
I remember early in my wild

1647
01:47:35,800 --> 01:47:38,760
days, I remember reading, I
think it was William Blake, the

1648
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:41,680
poet.
It's the, the word was the

1649
01:47:41,840 --> 01:47:45,880
statement was the path of excess
leads to the palace of wisdom.

1650
01:47:46,640 --> 01:47:49,080
And I remember reading that and
being like, huh, maybe I just

1651
01:47:49,080 --> 01:47:51,080
need to experience a lot of
things.

1652
01:47:51,360 --> 01:47:55,600
And I made-up my mind at that
time that as long as there was,

1653
01:47:55,600 --> 01:47:58,280
if it was something I could
stomach, I was going to do it.

1654
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:02,760
And I did so many different
types of drugs.

1655
01:48:03,240 --> 01:48:07,800
I I did, I did all kinds of
things.

1656
01:48:08,160 --> 01:48:11,920
I lived so recklessly.
There were times where I was

1657
01:48:11,920 --> 01:48:18,040
just living so wild that I could
have died at any point and I was

1658
01:48:18,040 --> 01:48:20,960
preserved through all of it.
Now I'm not saying that people

1659
01:48:20,960 --> 01:48:26,920
should take the course I did,
but the Lord saw in His mercy to

1660
01:48:26,920 --> 01:48:35,320
turn it to His good.
And now I can say that testimony

1661
01:48:35,440 --> 01:48:37,680
of every single principle, the
gospel.

1662
01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:40,000
Gospel only comes through the
gifts of the Spirit.

1663
01:48:40,520 --> 01:48:43,880
And you can lose it and you can
gain it.

1664
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:47,240
You could lose it again and you
might gain it again.

1665
01:48:47,760 --> 01:48:52,320
It's the Lord, the Lord's gift.
The testimony is the Lord's

1666
01:48:52,320 --> 01:48:59,280
gift.
And you can learn true

1667
01:48:59,280 --> 01:49:02,480
principles through a wide
variety of experiences.

1668
01:49:05,440 --> 01:49:08,600
But now that I'm on the right
path, I want to stick with it

1669
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:10,760
and stay true to that
commitment.

1670
01:49:11,160 --> 01:49:15,080
I've been baptized again.
And so entering into the waters

1671
01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:18,720
of baptism, I've taken upon
myself the name of Christ again

1672
01:49:18,720 --> 01:49:23,360
and want to do his work.
And I I pray that I'll be able

1673
01:49:23,360 --> 01:49:25,120
to do it.
Nice.

1674
01:49:25,560 --> 01:49:27,320
OK.
Tom, I have a couple more follow

1675
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:30,960
up questions for you, but before
we go there, I would like to cut

1676
01:49:30,960 --> 01:49:34,760
in some of your music and let
people listen to just two of

1677
01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:39,040
your songs. 1 is a rendition of
If You Could Hide Under Kolob

1678
01:49:39,480 --> 01:49:42,760
and the other is a song that you
wrote called All My Wives.

1679
01:49:43,640 --> 01:49:46,280
And I want to go ahead and let
people listen to this so they

1680
01:49:46,280 --> 01:49:47,960
can get a flavor of your music
here.

1681
01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:51,400
And then I want to come back and
just follow up with a couple

1682
01:49:51,400 --> 01:49:54,760
more questions and maybe get
your input on that song that you

1683
01:49:54,760 --> 01:49:57,080
wrote and where that came from.
You good with that?

1684
01:49:57,080 --> 01:49:59,720
Oh yeah, forgot all about that.
All right, here we go.

1685
01:50:16,440 --> 01:50:21,600
If you could have cool love in
the champion of your life and

1686
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:35,840
continue onward with that same
speech life, do you think that

1687
01:50:35,840 --> 01:50:44,200
you could ever through all the
tournament, find out the

1688
01:50:45,280 --> 01:50:46,880
generation?
Where?

1689
01:50:47,160 --> 01:50:53,480
God's meaning today.
Or see the grand beginning.

1690
01:50:55,000 --> 01:51:01,640
We're stressed at night.
Next time, oh you, the last

1691
01:51:01,640 --> 01:51:11,120
cremation where God's a man, me
faints, his spirit whispers.

1692
01:51:13,640 --> 01:51:24,680
Your man will spend pure smiles.
You're sadly outside curtains

1693
01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:30,200
when nothing else allows the
works.

1694
01:51:30,200 --> 01:51:38,320
You've got to continue with
worlds and lives, improvement

1695
01:51:38,440 --> 01:51:44,640
and progression and want to turn
around.

1696
01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:52,280
There's no into matter.
There is no into space.

1697
01:51:55,440 --> 01:51:59,640
There is no way to spirit.
There is no way to.

1698
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:09,800
There is no way to virtue.
There is no way to.

1699
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:17,480
There is no way to.
There is no way to.

1700
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:30,560
There is no way to.
There is no way to him.

1701
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:39,640
There is no way to priest.
There is no way to church.

1702
01:52:44,440 --> 01:52:49,520
There is no way to church.
There is no way to church.

1703
01:52:55,120 --> 01:53:05,000
There is no way to be.
There's no way to glow.

1704
01:53:05,000 --> 01:53:15,360
There is no way to glow me.
There is no way to go.

1705
01:53:15,360 --> 01:53:19,480
There is no way to be.
There is no way to be.

1706
01:53:25,360 --> 01:53:30,080
The good hide too cool love in
the trampoline of the night,

1707
01:53:32,800 --> 01:53:37,560
then continue onward with that
saves me to fly.

1708
01:53:40,160 --> 01:53:47,280
Do you think that you could
endure?

1709
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:17,360
OK, that First off, that's my
favorite hymn and and in my

1710
01:54:17,360 --> 01:54:18,840
opinion, knocked out of the park
there.

1711
01:54:19,200 --> 01:54:22,520
My next for for this next song,
All my Wives.

1712
01:54:22,880 --> 01:54:25,440
Where did the inspiration for
this song come from?

1713
01:54:25,760 --> 01:54:27,320
Yeah.
Well, I was.

1714
01:54:28,120 --> 01:54:30,560
I was in short Crick.
And I was supposed to meet with

1715
01:54:30,560 --> 01:54:32,840
a friend of mine at Maxwell
Park.

1716
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:37,440
And when I got there, there was
a man sitting on the ground kind

1717
01:54:37,440 --> 01:54:40,280
of kind of crying to himself a
little bit.

1718
01:54:40,280 --> 01:54:42,600
And I thought it was my friend
look like him.

1719
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:45,200
When I got closer, it wasn't
him.

1720
01:54:45,720 --> 01:54:48,560
It was another man who looks
similar.

1721
01:54:48,960 --> 01:54:55,360
And he had been sent away to
repent or kicked out of his

1722
01:54:55,360 --> 01:54:58,560
family and out of Short Creek.
And this guy who had been up in

1723
01:54:58,560 --> 01:55:02,560
the oil fields in South Dakota
working.

1724
01:55:03,080 --> 01:55:06,760
And when he heard that Warren
Jeffs was arrested, he came back

1725
01:55:06,760 --> 01:55:11,040
to find his family.
But they had they had vanished.

1726
01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:14,600
And that was his story.
And I thought it was powerful to

1727
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:17,560
see how sad he was about the
loss of his family.

1728
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:23,080
And I wanted to put in a song to
let people know that husbands of

1729
01:55:23,080 --> 01:55:25,160
plural wives love their families
as well.

1730
01:55:25,360 --> 01:55:28,360
Yeah, there are so many
heartbreaking stories out of

1731
01:55:28,360 --> 01:55:30,480
that time period.
And Mormon fundamentalism.

1732
01:55:31,120 --> 01:55:34,080
Yes, there, there really are.
And it really.

1733
01:55:35,320 --> 01:55:39,040
I just, I don't know, you know,
of course, then in, in my

1734
01:55:39,040 --> 01:55:45,480
opinion and in being a member of
Centennial, to me it's a very

1735
01:55:45,640 --> 01:55:50,000
clear statement of the
importance of having the

1736
01:55:50,000 --> 01:55:53,080
authority vested in the council
and not just one man, because

1737
01:55:53,080 --> 01:55:55,160
what happens when that one man
goes astray?

1738
01:55:55,440 --> 01:55:56,920
Well, you could see what
happens.

1739
01:55:57,480 --> 01:56:00,360
Right, right.
And and as these things often

1740
01:56:00,360 --> 01:56:03,640
do, it's not the guy who's
currently in power most of the

1741
01:56:03,640 --> 01:56:06,160
time you got to worry about,
it's who's coming next.

1742
01:56:06,680 --> 01:56:09,520
Under exactly after him, right,
OK.

1743
01:56:09,680 --> 01:56:14,360
Let's let's get to the song now.
This is All My Wives, written

1744
01:56:14,360 --> 01:56:31,080
and played by Tom Bennett.
The sun goes down behind me.

1745
01:56:34,000 --> 01:56:43,240
They ain't never gonna find me.
As I'm running to the mountain

1746
01:56:43,400 --> 01:56:56,120
of the Lord, like a strike of
light, there my heart's been

1747
01:56:56,120 --> 01:57:19,280
dived by E day between the laws
of me and the laws of God, Sang

1748
01:57:19,280 --> 01:57:22,720
its songs, and played by the
fire night.

1749
01:57:27,840 --> 01:57:33,680
Sing a song still.
Sing a song still.

1750
01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:39,800
Yeah, the singing songs.
To.

1751
01:57:39,880 --> 01:57:49,800
Bring me her, bring me.
Her.

1752
01:58:20,090 --> 01:58:41,960
Let my feet be, let my heart be.
Decided to stay true to you all

1753
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:52,600
the Wapsi dancing in the desert
tonight.

1754
01:58:58,400 --> 01:59:00,160
Sing a song.
Sing a song.

1755
01:59:06,440 --> 01:59:11,640
Yeah, the singing songs to bring
me her.

1756
01:59:46,670 --> 02:00:02,310
Like a fire burning revelation
is sure here you fade face so

1757
02:00:02,310 --> 02:00:09,480
true.
Otherwise he dancing in the

1758
02:00:10,200 --> 02:00:18,600
distance to that sing a song to
make it by the fighting.

1759
02:00:18,840 --> 02:00:26,080
Lights.
Sing a song still.

1760
02:00:26,080 --> 02:00:37,720
Sing a song still.
Yeah, the singing songs to bring

1761
02:00:37,720 --> 02:00:48,200
me her, all my wives, all my
wives, all my wives.

1762
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:13,440
Man, I love that.
Sound good.

1763
02:01:13,440 --> 02:01:16,400
Good stuff.
All right, I got just a few more

1764
02:01:16,400 --> 02:01:18,520
questions here and then I'll let
you go.

1765
02:01:18,520 --> 02:01:22,440
I appreciate it.
So let me ask you this.

1766
02:01:22,440 --> 02:01:24,360
You, you've been on this massive
journey.

1767
02:01:26,320 --> 02:01:33,320
You now are at a point at which
you're kind of, you've come

1768
02:01:33,320 --> 02:01:35,200
back, right?
You've come back to your

1769
02:01:35,200 --> 02:01:38,840
spiritual home, so to speak.
What does the future look like

1770
02:01:38,840 --> 02:01:40,560
for you?
What what are some of your goals

1771
02:01:40,560 --> 02:01:50,440
within the gospel now?
Well, so I, I hope to continue

1772
02:01:50,440 --> 02:01:53,400
to study, grow, learn and
progress.

1773
02:01:54,360 --> 02:01:58,880
One of the questions that I had
when I was when I was

1774
02:01:58,880 --> 02:02:03,560
researching was I.
Wanted to be certain that.

1775
02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:10,120
All the ordinances for salvation
and potentially for exaltation

1776
02:02:10,520 --> 02:02:13,400
would be available if I was
worthy of them.

1777
02:02:13,920 --> 02:02:17,840
And so I, I hope that I'm able
to continue.

1778
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:20,560
And there's a lot that I need to
know.

1779
02:02:21,040 --> 02:02:23,840
Like I thought I had a pretty
good understanding of the United

1780
02:02:23,840 --> 02:02:27,720
Order and the principles of it.
I've read old books on it and.

1781
02:02:27,800 --> 02:02:28,920
Read the.
Read the.

1782
02:02:28,920 --> 02:02:31,040
Descriptions and the Doctrine
and Covenants as well.

1783
02:02:31,520 --> 02:02:36,480
But I went to a a priesthood
meeting where one of the older

1784
02:02:36,480 --> 02:02:41,480
brethren got up and instructed
us and I learned, I learned more

1785
02:02:41,480 --> 02:02:46,320
about what a stewardship is and
how they operate then I had

1786
02:02:46,320 --> 02:02:49,120
learned in all, all my previous
years.

1787
02:02:49,520 --> 02:02:51,160
And so there's, there's a lot to
learn.

1788
02:02:51,200 --> 02:02:56,000
I just hope to continue to
learn, grow, progress, be a good

1789
02:02:56,000 --> 02:03:02,040
father, and whatever, whatever
opportunities to serve the Lord

1790
02:03:02,040 --> 02:03:05,520
there are, I hope, I hope to be
able to be faithful to those

1791
02:03:05,520 --> 02:03:07,480
opportunities.
Nice.

1792
02:03:08,160 --> 02:03:12,600
And then my, my, my final
question is this in this part I

1793
02:03:12,600 --> 02:03:15,040
find fascinating.
I assume you're going to

1794
02:03:15,040 --> 02:03:17,640
continue to tour and do those
things you've always done,

1795
02:03:17,640 --> 02:03:19,120
right?
Yeah.

1796
02:03:19,760 --> 02:03:21,240
How are you going to stay locked
in?

1797
02:03:21,240 --> 02:03:23,600
Because that's a tough place to
be, right?

1798
02:03:23,600 --> 02:03:25,720
The music industry can be rough,
period.

1799
02:03:26,080 --> 02:03:28,880
But when you're out there
traveling like you are, what

1800
02:03:28,880 --> 02:03:31,120
what's going to keep?
How do you stay centered?

1801
02:03:31,120 --> 02:03:34,840
How do you stay in that spot to
where you're like, this is what

1802
02:03:34,840 --> 02:03:38,400
I do but I can't really partake
of the whole lifestyle anymore?

1803
02:03:39,160 --> 02:03:44,640
Yeah, well, that's a really good
question and it and it does take

1804
02:03:45,240 --> 02:03:50,320
a concerted effort because of
course it's very easily to keep

1805
02:03:50,320 --> 02:03:53,600
an eye single to the glory of
God and keep your thoughts a

1806
02:03:53,600 --> 02:03:56,880
little elevated when you're
around the brethren and the

1807
02:03:56,880 --> 02:04:00,560
sisters and in your and you got
the Scriptures in your hand.

1808
02:04:00,560 --> 02:04:04,400
And it's easier to do that.
And so it does take an effort.

1809
02:04:04,920 --> 02:04:08,880
Often before I go into my shows,
I'll pray for the Spirit to be

1810
02:04:08,880 --> 02:04:12,360
with me, that I conduct myself
in a a manner pleasing to

1811
02:04:12,360 --> 02:04:18,360
Heavenly Father, and remember
that I am probably going to be

1812
02:04:18,360 --> 02:04:22,560
the only person in the room who
believes, at least to the level

1813
02:04:22,560 --> 02:04:25,040
in which I believe, at least
here in the West.

1814
02:04:25,040 --> 02:04:27,680
There's probably going to be a
large number of inactive Latter

1815
02:04:27,680 --> 02:04:31,320
Day Saints there, and there's
going to be people of all

1816
02:04:31,320 --> 02:04:35,360
spectrums of belief.
And if I have an opportunity?

1817
02:04:35,360 --> 02:04:40,560
To, to, to speak.
On the gospel, then I I'll do

1818
02:04:40,560 --> 02:04:42,760
that.
And I also want to make sure

1819
02:04:42,760 --> 02:04:44,880
that my actions are a sermon as
well.

1820
02:04:45,120 --> 02:04:48,280
So I have to be very careful to
do that, especially with some of

1821
02:04:48,280 --> 02:04:50,840
the subject matter of my songs.
You know, a lot of them.

1822
02:04:52,360 --> 02:04:54,440
You know, I play kind of country
Blues.

1823
02:04:54,440 --> 02:04:59,520
So the devil's in there and you
know, some, some dark tales and

1824
02:04:59,760 --> 02:05:03,560
hopefully they're seen as
precautionary and not

1825
02:05:03,560 --> 02:05:06,800
glorifying.
Wickedness.

1826
02:05:07,600 --> 02:05:09,960
Sure.
Has this affected your writing

1827
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:11,600
at all?
You coming back home, so to

1828
02:05:11,600 --> 02:05:14,600
speak?
Do you see, do you see yourself

1829
02:05:14,600 --> 02:05:19,080
making maybe some some more
songs about your journey and

1830
02:05:19,080 --> 02:05:23,080
about what you've learned?
I've started to write a few

1831
02:05:23,160 --> 02:05:28,000
songs of that nature as this was
starting.

1832
02:05:30,240 --> 02:05:37,200
I, I do want to write some
almost like him hymns for, for

1833
02:05:37,200 --> 02:05:39,920
more of a country style
deliverant delivery.

1834
02:05:40,280 --> 02:05:45,480
And we actually put on a, a
concert a couple weeks before

1835
02:05:45,480 --> 02:05:48,240
Christmas out in Centennial Park
where we did all Christmas

1836
02:05:48,240 --> 02:05:50,480
music.
And there's a lot of musicians

1837
02:05:50,480 --> 02:05:52,240
in that community.
I'm I'm finding.

1838
02:05:53,960 --> 02:05:57,800
And so hopefully that will turn
into opportunities to convey the

1839
02:05:57,800 --> 02:06:01,360
gospel in that way.
They actually have a If I live

1840
02:06:01,360 --> 02:06:06,680
closer, I live an hour away.
If I live closer, I would

1841
02:06:06,680 --> 02:06:08,240
definitely get involved in the
choir.

1842
02:06:08,240 --> 02:06:13,240
They have a remarkable choir.
I mean, I kind of jokingly refer

1843
02:06:13,240 --> 02:06:17,000
to it as the Little Tabernacle
Choir 'cause they sound just.

1844
02:06:17,000 --> 02:06:18,640
As good and.
Powerful, but there's only about

1845
02:06:19,000 --> 02:06:21,280
40 of them and they're just,
they're so good.

1846
02:06:21,520 --> 02:06:23,920
Very cool.
Well, dude, I look forward to

1847
02:06:23,920 --> 02:06:25,600
hearing the new stuff you're
going to put out.

1848
02:06:25,720 --> 02:06:28,080
I I really appreciate you being
here.

1849
02:06:29,880 --> 02:06:31,680
Oh.
One other thing I was going to

1850
02:06:31,680 --> 02:06:33,760
say to answer your question
though, and I, I totally forgot,

1851
02:06:35,240 --> 02:06:41,920
honestly, and I'm not just not
just saying this, a big part too

1852
02:06:41,920 --> 02:06:46,680
when I'm on the road of, of, of
keeping the spirit is I listen,

1853
02:06:46,680 --> 02:06:48,720
I do listen to your podcast.
A lot Stop.

1854
02:06:49,080 --> 02:06:50,720
It.
Yeah, no, I really do.

1855
02:06:50,720 --> 02:06:58,120
And I enjoy, I enjoy the the,
the broadness and perspectives.

1856
02:06:59,240 --> 02:07:01,000
And that's something.
You know, like I'll often.

1857
02:07:01,720 --> 02:07:04,320
No, I'm always on the Mormon
fundamentalism Facebook.

1858
02:07:04,320 --> 02:07:07,120
Group in.
Sharing notes from my own

1859
02:07:07,120 --> 02:07:11,840
personal studies and, you know,
striking up conversations with

1860
02:07:11,840 --> 02:07:18,000
people.
And I, I firmly believe that I

1861
02:07:18,000 --> 02:07:22,440
know that there are a variety of
fundamentalist groups and more

1862
02:07:22,440 --> 02:07:27,000
often than not, the dividing
line is priesthood authority.

1863
02:07:27,440 --> 02:07:32,760
And I, I get that that's all
good and fine to believe and

1864
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:34,640
follow a certain order of the
priesthood.

1865
02:07:35,120 --> 02:07:38,760
I do as well.
But people really got to

1866
02:07:38,760 --> 02:07:43,960
remember that we all have a lot
more in common than we have

1867
02:07:44,640 --> 02:07:48,320
dividing us.
And in fundamentalism, there

1868
02:07:48,320 --> 02:07:51,800
needs to be dialogue.
There needs to be communication

1869
02:07:51,800 --> 02:07:56,040
with people you know.
I've gone to Sunstone over the

1870
02:07:56,040 --> 02:07:59,520
years a few times and met people
from different groups, and it's

1871
02:07:59,520 --> 02:08:03,040
always an honor.
And just to remember that

1872
02:08:03,360 --> 02:08:05,800
anywhere two or three are
gathered together in the Lord's

1873
02:08:05,800 --> 02:08:08,720
name is spirits with them.
As long as there's not

1874
02:08:08,720 --> 02:08:13,320
contention, there's no reason
for us to be arguing over the

1875
02:08:13,320 --> 02:08:16,040
things we already know we don't
agree with, which are very

1876
02:08:16,040 --> 02:08:18,840
minuscule.
But there's so much to talk

1877
02:08:18,840 --> 02:08:26,480
about, even from groups that get
spoken up disparagingly.

1878
02:08:26,920 --> 02:08:29,880
Like, I think it's pretty
amazing to read about how the

1879
02:08:29,880 --> 02:08:33,480
Kingston's fast.
I think it's I've, I've listened

1880
02:08:33,480 --> 02:08:36,800
to segments of Warren Jeff's
sermons that had pure, beautiful

1881
02:08:36,800 --> 02:08:39,160
truth in them.
I've also listened to the Dalai

1882
02:08:39,160 --> 02:08:42,960
Lama and other religious leaders
who can share good things.

1883
02:08:43,360 --> 02:08:45,600
But it should be much more
magnified amongst

1884
02:08:45,600 --> 02:08:47,160
fundamentalists.
We have a lot more to learn.

1885
02:08:47,160 --> 02:08:48,760
From each other.
Absolutely.

1886
02:08:48,800 --> 02:08:52,960
I can agree with you more.
Well, dude, this was good stuff.

1887
02:08:55,480 --> 02:08:57,840
I dude, I, I'm a fan of your
music.

1888
02:08:57,880 --> 02:08:59,800
I've listened to it now for
quite a while.

1889
02:09:00,080 --> 02:09:02,880
You wrote that intro, which is
just, I love it.

1890
02:09:03,080 --> 02:09:07,280
It's totally the kind of music I
listen to whether I'm at the gym

1891
02:09:07,280 --> 02:09:12,400
or something like that.
The kind of that rocky country,

1892
02:09:12,400 --> 02:09:15,560
bluesy kind of a feel.
So keep doing what you're doing.

1893
02:09:15,560 --> 02:09:17,680
And man, when you get that
collection of hymns out, you let

1894
02:09:17,680 --> 02:09:21,200
me know and we'll throw that up
on the website and we'll we'll

1895
02:09:21,200 --> 02:09:23,600
get you cooking that way and see
if we can't get some people to

1896
02:09:23,600 --> 02:09:26,480
buy that album.
That'll motivate me to work on

1897
02:09:26,480 --> 02:09:28,360
it.
I'll I'll try to write some

1898
02:09:28,360 --> 02:09:31,720
things that are uniquely Mormon.
Dude, that sounds awesome.

1899
02:09:32,280 --> 02:09:34,640
All right, man, Good stuff.
Hang around for 5 minutes, all

1900
02:09:34,640 --> 02:09:35,800
right?
OK.

1901
02:09:36,160 --> 02:09:37,560
All right.
Bye everybody.

1902
02:10:08,120 --> 02:10:08,200
The.