Episode #158: The Great Omission W/Taylor Smith

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There are a lot of beliefs and
practices that make Mormonism

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truly unique in the religious
world.

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Certainly, if you take any
person off the street, just a

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run-of-the-mill person, and ask
them what makes Mormonism unique

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and different, the first things
out of their mouth that would be

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brought up is certainly plural
marriage.

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But what if a sectarian
Christian wrote a book

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advocating for plural marriage?
What would that look like?

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Well, the day you're going to
find out.

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Taylor Smith joins me on the
podcast today as we break down a

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book entitled The Great Omission
by Clyde L Pilkington.

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Now to cover this book, it is
going to take two episodes.

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In this first episode we cover
the problem of demographics and

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ratio to men and women in modern
society.

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Then we move on to Old Testament
precedents, New Testament

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evidence, and what the New
Testament in Christ really say

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about the topic of plural
marriage.

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Now all along the way we just
funk and dispel misconceptions

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around the practice and
principle of plural marriage.

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Stick around for that and much,
much more on this episode of the

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Mormon Renegade Podcast.
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You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Taylor, what's going on, man?

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Oh not too much bro, I just got
4 inches of snow that this last

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night so it's always an exciting
first day of the winter

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officially kicking in.
Dude, I can't wait for it.

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I'm ready for for.
I wish it'd snow 4 feet.

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I mean, I'm sorry to say that to
you, but if it could shut down

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my cruise for a little while,
I'd be happy.

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So.
Oh right, I got you.

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Yep, Yep.
So.

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But dude, when you brought up
this, doing a podcast on this,

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it was crazy how it all worked
out 'cause like I just had

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Kimberly Watson Smith on the
podcast last week to go over

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something very similar and she
did a great job.

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And then, you know, like the
week after Kimberly, text me,

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you text me and say, hey, I want
to go over this.

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And so it's crazy how it just
all lines up.

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And so I'm, I'm super excited to
dig into this real quick.

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Why don't you fill everybody in
on what we're going to talk

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about today?
So today we're going to talk

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about a book.
Well, and some other things, but

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but the the theme of the book,
the title of the book is called

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the great omission.
It's by a guy named Clyde

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Pilkington Junior.
The he is not a Mormon.

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He has no connection to
Mormonism.

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He is a just AI think just
evangelical type Christian

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background and he became
converted to plural marriage.

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Biblical marriage is how he
phrases it, which I think is a

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great way to to put it.
And he wrote this book called

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The Great Omission, and he makes
the case that Christianity's

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greatest sin of omission is
polygamy and, and the the

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aversion that we have as
Christians to the practice of

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polygamy.
But but yeah, just the honorable

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nobility of righteous practice
of plural marriage.

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You know, it was interesting
because you gave me a copy of

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the book and you, you gave it to
me right here before I moved.

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And so I haven't had a chance to
dig into it yet.

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But as I was reading the back
cover, man, he was explicit.

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I am not a Mormon, right?
He was like, you know, that this

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is not my, you know, not my
faith tradition, so to speak.

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And, and he was really clear on
that.

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So and, and, and talking to you
a little bit about it.

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I'm I'm excited to get going.
So let's let's go ahead and fire

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this bad boy up.
Right on.

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So we'll just dive right in.
The first thing actually there,

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there was two scriptures I
wanted to share leading into

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this.
And so basically the, the kind

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of part of the thing that has
frustrated me with combating

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against the anti polygamy crowd
that the polygamy denier is that

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they, they, they tend, and we
sometimes tend to let them, they

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tend to try to argue from the
presumption that polygamy is

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wrong.
And but there's and, and, and,

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and it's just wrong and it's
bad.

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And, and, and, and then we're
like, oh, but no, but God can

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command it and stuff.
But it gives us a position of

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weakness.
We're arguing from a position of

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weakness when we take that
stance.

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And so my point is there is
nothing to apologize for

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polygamy.
It's is an honorable thing when

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practiced proper properly.
And so we need to take the high

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ground.
We need to argue from a position

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of strength.
And in first Peter chapter 3

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verse 15, it says, but sanctify
the Lord God in your hearts and

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be ready always to give an
answer to every man that asketh

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you a reason of the hope that is
in you with meekness and fear.

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And I love that because it puts
the responsibility upon us to

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prepare because there's going to
be people that question, there's

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going to be people that are
antagonistic, but there is also

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going to be people who are
sincere and and interested in

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truth.
But we just need to be prepared

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to give them the answers to the
these questions that are going

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to come up.
And that is a responsibility

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that we have.
And and that's Peter first Peter

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chapter 3, verse 15.
The other thing is this quote

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from John Taylor, which I've
shared in previous conversations

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that we've had, but it's it's,
it's one of my like North stars

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in my life.
John Taylor said.

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I believe it is good to
investigate and prove all

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principles that come before me,
prove all things, hold fast that

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which is good, and reject that
which is evil, no matter what

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guys it may come in.
I think if we as Mormons hold

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principles that cannot be
sustained by the Scriptures and

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and by good, sound reason and
philosophy, the quicker we part

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with them the better, no matter
who believes in them or who does

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not.
In every principle presented to

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us, our first inquiry should be,
Is it true?

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Does it emanate from God?
If He is its author, it can be

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sustained just as much as any
other truth in natural

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philosophy.
If false, it should be opposed

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and exposed just as much as any
other error.

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Hence, upon all such matters we
wish to go back to first

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principles.
So.

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Oh, go ahead.
Sorry.

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So I was just the, the the point
is, if there is anything flawed

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with this principle of plural
marriage, we can't be afraid of

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that.
We have to confront that.

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We have to explore it.
And we ultimately we can't just

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settle on what Joe Joseph or
Brigham said, like that's

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pinning your light on somebody
else's, your testimony on

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someone else's sleeve.
What we need to do is figure it

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out ourselves to put in the work
and and I just love how that

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it's fearless like we have.
We have to have the courage that

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truth will stand on its own.
Absolutely.

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You know, one of the things you
hit on and it's something I've

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noticed, right, Not with, not
with everybody, but with, with a

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few folks is their own from time
to time.

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There's almost kind of like an
apology that's issued when

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someone asks us if we're
practicing the principle right

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now.
And, and maybe it's just 'cause

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I'm a little stubborn and I'm a
little hard headed sometimes to

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a fault.
But you know, don't, don't do

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that.
Stand up.

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Wear that thing like a badge of
honor.

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If you're, if you're a husband,
claim both of your wives.

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The the other thing I would say
is that, you know, also don't,

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don't allow your wives to be to
be beat down, right?

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That's not the thing we want
here.

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If we want to have kind of a, a
seat at the table, so to speak,

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if we want to fill the
Commission that Jesus gave us to

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be the salt of the earth, let
him see, let him see.

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Don't hide your light and and
you know, be a happy, healthy,

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functioning family in all
respects in in plural marriage

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and don't apologize for it.
Just be bold enough.

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Exactly so.
There's nothing to apologize

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for.
I mean, this is this and as we

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will make the case, I hope we
will prove that there is just as

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it's honorable for a say 20 year
old young man who desires to

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prepare himself and is seeking
for an honorable union with a

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woman to be married and have a
start a family like that.

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That's noble, that's honorable.
The and and society admires that

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well, until recently, society
just universally admired.

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But but but these things we need
to just kind of reset the

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narrative and and take this this
high ground, take this position

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of strength arguing from because
truth is truth.

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So with that, let's dive into
chapter 1 and this one.

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I might just read a few of these
paragraphs.

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Feel free to stop, let's
discuss.

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But there's just so much data to
back this up.

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One of the things that I have
heard from not even just

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antagonistic people, but just
people in the church that don't

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like polygamy.
And it's kind of like, oh,

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they're trying to distance
themselves from our history and

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and the early doctrines and
teachings is but the birth

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rates, you know, just as many
boys are born as girls and and

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he addresses this in a perfect
way.

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So.
Taylor, I think your mic is

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slipping a little bit down, down
your cheek there.

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Can you raise that back up just
a touch?

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Yeah, how's that?
That's better.

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Thanks.
OK, yeah, sorry.

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OK.
Chapter 1, The sad ignored

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epidemic.
I will get directly to the

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point.
The problem that I will present

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to you is straightforward.
There is a surplus of women.

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There are just simply more women
than there are men.

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This has always been the case.
This is a clear statistical fact

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across the board in every
society in every period of human

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history.
According to the 2000 United

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States Census, and I haven't
updated this, I pulled updated

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numbers, but as of 2000, there
are 5.3 million more women in

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the United States than there are
men. 5 million. 5.3 million.

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Think of the serious
implications of this fact.

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Where will these 5.3 million
women find husbands who will

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love and cherish them?
Let's consider a few brief words

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from others who have addressed
this problem of the ratio

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between men and women.
Philip von Hohenheim, who is a

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physician that lived in from
1493 to 1541, says now it so

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happens that God has always
created many more women than men

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and he makes men die more
readily than women and he always

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lets the woman survive and not
the men.

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An interesting astute
observation from 500 years ago.

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James Stiver versus a minister.
He says there are always more

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women available for marriage
than men, in spite of the

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proximity of numerical
equivalent equality at birth.

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The social reality has always
been, for several reasons, that

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there are more marriageable
women than men.

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War, disease, irresponsibility,
homosexuality, vocation,

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selfishness, these are some of
the reasons which produce the

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gap.
A Patricia Dixon is a professor

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and says and all of these
sources are in the book Chapter

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1.
Males through all age, stages of

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life span, and across cultures
die disproportionately more than

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females.
Factors contributing to this are

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higher male infant mortality and
premature death due to

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occupational hazards and
warfare.

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00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,120
Adriana Blank, who is an
attorney, says men managed to

226
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,880
kill themselves off in record
numbers.

227
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,800
Dude that's so true.
There is a website that I love.

228
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,760
It's like or, or a, a Facebook
page, it has something to do

229
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,560
with like OSHA violations and it
just shows doing like stupid

230
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:52,440
stuff, right?
And like there's, there's often

231
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,200
times I've watched that and I I
think back I'm like, Oh yeah, I

232
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,360
definitely get some bonehead
crap, right.

233
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,160
I think it's just.
Talking about the guy that's

234
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,720
just like cringing as these as
these machinery failed people.

235
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,160
Yeah, yeah, I've seen that.
It's like a Facebook page.

236
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,680
Yep, Yep.
And, and dude, I've seen some

237
00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,240
stuff working, you know, on
construction sites.

238
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,000
I've done it right.
I've been in some places I

239
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,320
probably shouldn't have been.
I think it's just kind of the

240
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,440
price of admission of being a
dude, right, is that you're

241
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,880
going to do some stupid stuff
from time to time.

242
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,080
So where what nature does not
take care of, men do to

243
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:36,080
themselves, It isn't just global
war that does it.

244
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,040
Although war makes a significant
contribution, men seem to have

245
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,720
to war with their environment
and with each other.

246
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,240
Each and every year in the
United States, more young men

247
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,480
die on the highways than were
killed during all of the Vietnam

248
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,280
War.
There are wars in the streets of

249
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,440
our cities for control of drug
traffic or gang territory.

250
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,200
If males don't kill themselves
on the streets or on the

251
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,080
highways, they are engaged in
high risk occupations or they

252
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,400
seek high risk recreational
activities.

253
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,320
By the early years of the
marriage selection process, we

254
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,120
have reached that state where
for every 100 females, at least

255
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,360
30 will never marry or will be
the second wives of men who have

256
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,840
been married before.
These husbands often have other

257
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,840
families to support families
that have been left behind.

258
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,160
The problem is exacerbated.
So that's the end of that quote.

259
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,360
The problem is exacerbated as
demonstrated by mortality rates

260
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,920
shortly after birth.
Within the 1st 28 days after

261
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,360
birth, about 25% more males than
females die.

262
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,560
A higher ratio of male to female
deaths continues throughout

263
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:43,920
life.
The factors involved in these

264
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,240
different mortality figures
obviously reflect inherent

265
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:53,840
physiological sex differences.
And that comes from an article

266
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,480
from the Urban Institute in 1997
improving data on male fertility

267
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,800
and family formation.
So these these are all like

268
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,400
indisputable facts and it makes
a lot of sense.

269
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,680
Like, like she was saying, you
know, girls aren't jumping off

270
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,720
of 20 foot tall buildings off
the roof and like climbing trees

271
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,000
that they shouldn't have.
They have no business climbing.

272
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,480
I Mean, Girls are not doing
these high risk activities that

273
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:27,000
guys, even young boys and all
throughout life, females are

274
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,640
also not pursuing careers as,
you know, deep sea divers and,

275
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:37,040
you know, soldiers general as as
often or or, you know, law

276
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,160
enforcement firefight, like all
of these first responders.

277
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,640
These are noble things.
And yet they're incredibly

278
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:50,800
dangerous occupations to have.
And so, yeah, I mean, this is

279
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,720
just this is gold.
There's more vital statistics.

280
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,200
So continuing on with chapter
one, family therapist Audrey B

281
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,640
Chapman has written, quote, not
all women are going to have

282
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,160
mates.
Not even if every available man

283
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,920
were willing to commit himself.
I demonstrate this fact in my

284
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,400
workshop workshops by telling
the women that if each of them

285
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,240
stood up and asked one man all
to herself, 1/4 of the women

286
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,359
would be left standing as if in
the adult version of musical

287
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:20,800
chairs.
Wow.

288
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,400
Going back to attorney Adriana
Blake, she says for every 100

289
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,640
single women of young
marriageable age in the United

290
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,840
States, there are fewer than 70
single men.

291
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,640
As people age, the statistics
get worse.

292
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,440
By age 45, for every 100
available men, there are over

293
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,960
200 single women.
When a society which insists on

294
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,480
a one to one relationship and
marriage finds itself with a

295
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,360
large surplus of members of one
sex, it behaves like a chemical

296
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,360
mixture that has too many
electrons.

297
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,960
It is unstable, it is volatile,
and it will seek to change to a

298
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,640
state of equilibrium.
The surplus of women does not go

299
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,560
quietly into spinsterhood.
Most single women do not choose

300
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,000
to be content to accept
spinsterhood as their place in

301
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,840
society.
Single women will respond to

302
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,800
their biological needs and they
will continue to attempt to

303
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,240
secure a man of their own.
At present, the only way to

304
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,680
procure equilibrium, that is to
furnish him, that is to furnish

305
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,400
a man for all those females
struggling in the marriage race,

306
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,840
is to maintain a system where
men can readily discard one

307
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,760
woman in order to be able to
accommodate another.

308
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,520
Our social system utilizes the
only process available, that of

309
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,000
easy divorce.
There are too many single parent

310
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,600
homes, 12 million of them.
There are too many homes where

311
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,320
the father's absent, 10 million
of them.

312
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:50,080
There are too many children
growing up without a father, 50%

313
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,760
of them.
That's the end of the of

314
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,880
Adrienne Blake.
So he goes on.

315
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,480
This is not just a problem in
the US, this is a natural

316
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,520
phenomenon throughout all
societies.

317
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,760
Statistical work by Samuel
Chapman shows that in his

318
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:11,320
country of Great Britain there
is a surplus of 2,158,400 women,

319
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,160
or over 9% of the female
population above marriageable

320
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,560
age.
This works out at over 9% of all

321
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,040
adult women who cannot marry in
a monogamous society.

322
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,040
His conclusions are that quote a
seemingly small excess of women

323
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,560
can have a large effect on
society.

324
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:36,000
Wow, wow.
So my, my question would be, do

325
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,040
you think he takes into account
because because there, there are

326
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,640
some of this, right?
When, when she says, or he says,

327
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,520
excuse me, women of marriageable
age, is he taking into account

328
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,960
too maybe some women that don't
want to get married?

329
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,320
Is she just lumping all these
stats in together?

330
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,800
Because there are some other
factors there too, right?

331
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,880
Absolutely.
In fact, let's go into some of

332
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,600
those other factors right now
because he makes the case that

333
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,040
this problem is actually bigger
than the statistics might first

334
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:06,960
appear.
Wow.

335
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,640
Because yes, there are 5.3
million more women in the United

336
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,840
States, but that's just the tip
of the iceberg.

337
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,880
The situation is actually far
worse than just those vital

338
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,800
statistics might first suggest.
When considering marriage, The

339
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,440
real ratio between men and women
must be seen through the filter

340
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,280
of marriageable men.
How many of the men are actually

341
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,920
marriageable?
The number of marriageable men

342
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:35,360
are reduced by men who are
incarcerated in prison, men who

343
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:38,480
are homosexual.
When taking into consideration

344
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,120
these two factors alone, there
could be as many as 14.9 million

345
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,400
in women in the US who will not
be able to find a husband.

346
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,120
But the real situation is even
worse than that.

347
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:52,840
The number of men is also
reduced drastically by men who

348
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,720
lack interest in being husbands,
those who are not inclined to

349
00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,200
marriage, and men who are
unsuitable for being responsible

350
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,160
husbands, gang members, drug
addicts, criminals, deadbeats,

351
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,880
the mentally ill, etcetera.
How is it even possible to

352
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,320
estimate the number of men
contained in these two groups?

353
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,120
All totaled, we could easily be
talking about many 10s of

354
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:17,360
millions of women who will not
be able to find a husband.

355
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,240
One author has suggested that
this figure is close to 1/4 of

356
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,160
the women, or 35.8 million.
This is absolutely staggering

357
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:32,920
because, I mean, you think about
it, men are incarcerated at much

358
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,120
higher rates than women on
average.

359
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,320
Like the, the, the, the prison
population is predominantly men,

360
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,960
gang members, predominantly men,
all, all.

361
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:47,480
I mean, generally there are more
women who want marriage and want

362
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,960
to have a family and have
children than men.

363
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,160
I mean, you know, even if we
don't look at it across the

364
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,240
entire segment of society,
certainly within Mormonism there

365
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,560
are more women inclined to
marriage than men.

366
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,880
Dude, you're not kidding.
Just it was, it was probably a

367
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,920
year before I left Utah, the
Tribune of all places had

368
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,840
published an article where it
had talked about this just

369
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,120
within the LDS church, right?
That there were more women

370
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,600
seeking to get married than
there were men seeking to be

371
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,840
married.
And also the the quality of of

372
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,440
guy who's available and single.
They weren't making any efforts.

373
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,440
They were still hanging out in
mom's basement doing that sort

374
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,440
of thing, right?
And it made me kind of shouldn't

375
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,760
say giggle, but I kind of, you
know, sarcastically went, oh, if

376
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,080
only there was something the
Lord revealed to help this out.

377
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,960
But it is a it is a problem.
And it doesn't seem to be a

378
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,800
problem that's getting any
better anytime soon, right?

379
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,120
I think, I think even our laws
enable some of this, right?

380
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:55,160
I remember when Obama care came
out and you know, kids could

381
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,920
stay on your insurance till they
were like 2526, right?

382
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,440
I mean, it seems like, and, and
this has been a crisis for a

383
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,360
while in, in Western society,
especially America, where

384
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,360
childhood is being extended
while adulthood is being

385
00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:15,040
shortened, right?
And that that is an issue for

386
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:16,600
sure.
And it comes with a lot of

387
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,760
different social ills and that
sort of thing.

388
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,600
Totally.
So that that Tribune article was

389
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,400
based off of some work by a
sociologist guy down in Florida

390
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,960
who I happen to know.
He was in my ward growing up as

391
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,160
a kid.
His name's Ryan Craig.

392
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,280
And yeah, he's an antinomian,
sadly, but he's.

393
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,080
Yeah.
So basically he, he wrote, he

394
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,720
did some groundbreaking research
on the dating crisis and it was,

395
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,960
he initially published it in a
journal in Florida, but then he

396
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,520
got published by time dot by
time.

397
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,680
And so if you go to
time.com/datanomics, this is an

398
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,000
article about Ryan Craig's work.
And, and I actually wrote an

399
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,400
article for our, our friends,
the, the Ericsson's Joshua's

400
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,040
blog, Charlotte asked me years
ago to, to write this.

401
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,880
And so if you go to
speakingofpolygamy.com and, and

402
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,680
search for Datanomics, I've only
written two articles and we may

403
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,640
actually touch on both of them
today during this conversation.

404
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:28,800
So the, the, the, the point that
is made in, in this is just

405
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,040
based off purely the church's
data.

406
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:38,240
There are three single women for
every two single men in the LDA

407
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,720
church.
And, and so that means that even

408
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,240
if every guy in the church got
their act together and, and got

409
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,920
married and took that
responsibility on, there would

410
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,480
still be 1/3 of the, of the
women in the LDS church

411
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:59,080
leftover.
That's like, that's 33% of the

412
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,120
women not having a chance even
if all the men got it together.

413
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,520
So this is actually, and what
the point that I made, which

414
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,920
goes further than when what then
what Doctor Kragen does is I was

415
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,160
just basically saying this is
predictable.

416
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:19,040
This is actually to be expected
Anytime you have a like a

417
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,680
conservative value or a
conservative like religious

418
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:29,200
organization that values that,
that values marriage within the

419
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,040
group, you know, like just, you
know, not marrying outside of

420
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,600
the group.
And, and, and, and it encourages

421
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,680
like large families things,
these, they're the types of

422
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,120
factors that really play into
this.

423
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,360
And it, it, it, it will produce
a positive birth rate, like a

424
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:48,840
permanent positive birth rate,
right?

425
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,320
Well, what happens when you have
a positive birth rate?

426
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,360
You have more 5 year olds than
six year olds.

427
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,880
On average, you have more 12
year olds than 13 year olds.

428
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,320
On average, you have more 18
year olds than 22 year olds.

429
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,120
And the reason those numbers
become very significant in this

430
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:13,200
conversation is because women on
average, there are of course

431
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:18,320
exceptions, but on average marry
older men and men marry younger

432
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,680
women.
And the reasons are kind of

433
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,400
obvious because, you know, women
just biologically speaking,

434
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,480
women crave security.
They want to marry a guy that

435
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,840
they know is going to be able
to, to provide for them and take

436
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,640
care of them and protect them.
And that's generally older men

437
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,840
are are better prepared to to
care for a woman as a wife.

438
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,400
And men tend to marry the women
who will give him the healthiest

439
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,920
children.
Like just by strictly

440
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,840
biologically speaking.
Now there are obviously amazing

441
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,840
women who perhaps are unable to
have healthy children or

442
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,480
whatever.
And I'm not taking it, but just

443
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,040
on average, we're talking about
large groups that.

444
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,440
And so the in the, the, the gap
is historically about a four

445
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,480
year gap.
So in other words, women who get

446
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,720
married at age 18 tend to marry
22 year old men.

447
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,120
Women who get married at age 20
tend to marry 24 year old men.

448
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,200
Well the the challenge with that
is if there are more 18 year

449
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,960
olds than 22 year olds and the
22 year old men are marrying 18

450
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,640
year old women, what about the
women who didn't marry at 18 and

451
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,720
are now 22?
Right.

452
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,960
They are.
They have a reduced school.

453
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:41,120
And so this is a this is an
absolutely brutal crisis in the

454
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,880
LDS church, which is why in
recent years the, the, the

455
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,800
narrative has changed from get
married, have children to it's

456
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,400
to it's OK to be a single woman.
You can still contribute to the

457
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,480
Kingdom of God and and the
Church.

458
00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,080
Which which?
Which I totally believe.

459
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,400
But that should not be the
ideal, right?

460
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:01,360
Correct.
I want to tell you something

461
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:06,480
that happened to me when when I
left the LDS church, right, I

462
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,200
was in a position of leadership.
The state presidency asked me to

463
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,880
come in and have one last
conversation.

464
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,520
I'm not going to tell the
gentleman's name or where he

465
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,920
works.
I will say it's an appendage of

466
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,600
the church.
And he was high enough up in

467
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:27,800
that organization that he had,
he had like at least quarterly

468
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,000
meetings with the First
Presidency in the Quorum of the

469
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,120
12.
And I went in and I just

470
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:37,600
basically, you know, was like,
hey, let's get this over with

471
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,200
because I'm done.
And the less time I'm here, the

472
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,280
happier you're probably going to
be, right?

473
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,280
Because I was at a point of
like, I'm, you know, you're not

474
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,440
going to like me hanging out.
Now, this gentleman was very

475
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,760
gracious and I have no doubt he
was very well-intentioned.

476
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,200
But he said, can I just ask you
some questions about why you're

477
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,000
leaving?
And I was like, absolutely.

478
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:04,400
And he's like, did you encounter
some, some, some, you know,

479
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,480
stuff from other members about
the LGBTQ community?

480
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:09,920
I'm like, yeah.
And that bugs me.

481
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,840
But that's because we're getting
too close, right?

482
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,680
And as far as I'm concerned,
we're not calling truth out.

483
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,320
So that's not it.
And he's like, oh, Brother

484
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,320
Sanders, you must have
encountered some, some, some,

485
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,120
you know, early teachings that
are really troubling you.

486
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,560
I was like, actually, I did.
But those aren't troubling me at

487
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,240
all.
And it was really about what was

488
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,720
going on in the temple because
they had just made a change at

489
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,840
which they really changed a
covenant that has to do with man

490
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,360
and wife and, and, and the way
God governs his family.

491
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,000
And it's a covenant that happens
from a woman to her husband.

492
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,440
And I said this, this is wrong.
You changed this, this covenant,

493
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,160
you've, you've actually done
damage now, right?

494
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,200
You can no longer just say, hey,
we just took out some liturgy

495
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,040
that was repeated and, and you
know, some stuff that you could

496
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,520
do some mental gymnastics
around.

497
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,600
This was the red line, right?
And he said, oh, oh, I can

498
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,120
answer this for you, Brother
Sanders.

499
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,280
He says that the reason that the
First Presidency did that I, I

500
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,600
got to hear this from their
mouth was because for the first

501
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,520
time ever, there was, there was
a lot more single people in the

502
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,920
church than married people.
We changed that covenant and I

503
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,400
just remember I looked at him
and I said, so if somebody was

504
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,640
having a problem with, you know,
not screwing around with the

505
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,840
opposite sex, would you just
take out the BLOB chastity And

506
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,760
things got real quiet, right.
But this isn't that similar

507
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,440
vein, right?
Where where where, you know,

508
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,560
we're we're up against it.
And in my opinion, the reason

509
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,720
we're up against it from from a
purely population standpoint,

510
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,040
more women to men, especially
within a culture that values

511
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,840
marriage and family so much.
And we just threw the tools out

512
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,160
the window, right?
It's like you're, you're going

513
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,800
to, I don't know, go, it would
be like me going to do a survey

514
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,360
and I, you know, somewhere along
the road, I'm like, just throw

515
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,640
out those that survey equipment,
right?

516
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:12,880
Because we're not going to need
it.

517
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,720
Well, guess what?
We need it, right?

518
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,040
We're, we're here.
And so I, I find this very

519
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,320
fascinating, but it does fit
with an overall kind of

520
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:30,080
narrative about, you know, how
we've let modern day ideals come

521
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,560
in and it, it, it has upset some
things.

522
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,040
Yeah, there's another thing,
another last point I want to

523
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,720
make and I brought this out in
the in the article and

524
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,840
andtime.com/datatanomics covers
it as well.

525
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,440
So Mormonism is not the only,
this is not uniquely a problem

526
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,080
of Mormonism because there's
other conservative, more like

527
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:57,840
Orthodox, for instance, Hasidic
Judaism.

528
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,160
Now the way Hasidic Judaism has
addressed it because because

529
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,520
you, you look back at the
history of Judaism and it was

530
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,840
Rabbi Gershom, I want to say was
the guy's name that, that in

531
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:17,000
somewhere around 1000 AD or give
or take basically made a

532
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,760
proclamation.
And the, the, the point was

533
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,360
we're going to temporarily stop
practicing polygamy as because I

534
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,800
mean, choose that's part of the
law of Moses.

535
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,400
They've been polygamous for
thousands of years prior to

536
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,920
that.
But in, in 1000 AD, so just

537
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,720
about 1000 years ago, this, I
believe it was Rabbi Gershom

538
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:42,120
said it, it is expedient for us
to, to at least temporarily

539
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:49,840
suspend this practice because
we, it's inviting a lot more

540
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,280
persecution.
And so we need to kind of get

541
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,160
these gentiles off our backs.
And, you know, so we're going to

542
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,400
suspend this so that we can be
prosperous.

543
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,280
And then when we get kind of
more stability and we get our

544
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,560
feet under ourselves, then we
can go back to this practice

545
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,600
and, and, you know, keeping the
law as it's written in the in

546
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,080
the Torah.
And that was supposed to be

547
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,840
temporary.
It's never been lifted because

548
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,760
the after that, the Jews
actually began to prosper

549
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,280
exceedingly.
They became involved in

550
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,360
basically all the central banks
of Europe and they became very

551
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,200
influential in politics and, and
finance.

552
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,200
And, and so it just really
changed that dynamic a lot.

553
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:38,120
And so the, so, but Hasidic
Judaism is still that very

554
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,600
conservative, kind of, you know,
fundamentalist type of they're,

555
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,160
they're the Orthodox Jews as, as
it's called.

556
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,920
And so they, they noticed this
trend obviously many years ago

557
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,200
and the way that they handled it
was very different instead,

558
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,680
because obviously the, the, the
biblical solution is polygamy,

559
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,120
right?
You know, if there's too many

560
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:05,200
women, you know, good men will
be willing and good women will

561
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,040
desire to be married.
And in a polygamous situation.

562
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,560
The the elephant in the room is
that the LDS Church, you'd think

563
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:18,520
with all of this like historical
doctrinal precedent that we

564
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,280
have, that somebody would think
of, oh, maybe if we just brought

565
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,280
back polygamy, it would solve
all of these issues because it

566
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:25,840
would literally solve all of
these issues.

567
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:31,199
But and, and and it would still
respect voluntary associations

568
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:33,960
like consensual marriage rather
than arranged marriage.

569
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:41,880
And so, yeah, that's, I guess
that's a, that was a little bit

570
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,719
of a tangent, but.
You're good.

571
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,719
Let me ask this question.
Does the author in the book dive

572
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:53,239
into what come up as social ills
by having a part of the

573
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,480
population that's not marrying?
That's the very next section

574
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,560
section.
So let's just let's continue the

575
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:08,160
problem of unmarried women,
first, husbandless women and 2nd

576
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,480
fatherless children, widows and
orphans as the Bible identifies

577
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,760
them.
In every community there are

578
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,720
women without husbands, single
mothers abound, and for all

579
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:20,400
intents and purposes, with
fatherless children.

580
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,880
Women and children without the
loving headship of husbands and

581
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,320
fathers are society's most
tragic epidemic.

582
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,200
It's devastating effects could
only adequately be calculated by

583
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,240
God Himself.
The continual and surmounting

584
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:36,480
devastation leaves untold
heartbreak and scars

585
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,600
emotionally, physically,
mentally, spiritually, and

586
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,560
socially.
It leaves an enduring path of

587
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,000
destruction in its wake.
Even sadder, it is an ignored

588
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,640
epidemic.
It is the scourge upon the human

589
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,880
landscape to which Christendom
gives little or no real

590
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,800
recognition or attention.
The effect of the deep scars

591
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,400
that this tragedy has upon
precious lives carries over from

592
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,440
generation to generation without
ever being addressed At its very

593
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,440
root.
Every social and religious

594
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,960
attempt to address the issues
but a pitiful patch upon a

595
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,680
profusely bleeding wound.
None of this is meant to be an

596
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,440
indictment against the sea of
women and of women and children

597
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,760
who find themselves in this
immeasurable calamity.

598
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,440
In fact, some of them have shown
themselves to be the most

599
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,440
courageous and incomprehensibly
resilient in the bearing of

600
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,760
their enormous burdens.
Rather, these words are intended

601
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,760
to be a wake up call for those
who profess to know God.

602
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,200
This is a serious matter and it
is our responsibility to know

603
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,080
and understand the root of this
current social problem and to

604
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,320
make our individual attempts to
correct the problem rather than

605
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,400
pitch patch it's copious
symptoms.

606
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,760
What are some of the symptoms of
the shortage of men?

607
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,080
Women without headship, love and
marriage?

608
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:49,080
Women who are forced into
independent self-sufficiency.

609
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,760
Children without fathers or
without active fathers in their

610
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,320
daily lives.
Women and children who are

611
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,200
forced into poverty.
And he's got all these like

612
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,560
statistics in the footnotes.
Affairs as women seek needed

613
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,480
attention and love.
Divorces caused by women who

614
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,360
acquire a husband from a woman
who already has one.

615
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,760
Women who are forced to attempt
to supply headship to each other

616
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,280
in same sex cohabitation and
women who are forced into sex

617
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,160
slavery.
These are just some of the the

618
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,480
symptoms of this surplus of
women and it's kind of

619
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,920
undeniable honestly, when you
when you think about it.

620
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,960
Thomas Sabo is another guy who
makes an observation regarding a

621
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,920
character from a theatrical play
that is more common than we

622
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,560
would like to acknowledge.
Now approaching 50, she realizes

623
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,800
her only hope of letting a man
resides in forbidden territory.

624
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,040
In the eyes of the world, he's
not much, but not much is better

625
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,160
than nothing.
It forces women to settle right

626
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:04,160
for less than ideal partners.
So one of the more One of the

627
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,280
specific and more obvious ways
in which Western monogamy stands

628
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,480
under judgement at presence is
in its neglect of sexual have

629
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,200
nots.
A single woman over 40 years of

630
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,280
age statistically stands a very
poor chance of remarriage.

631
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,880
At present, men are fewer in
number, often marrying young,

632
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,000
often marry younger women, and
themselves die younger than

633
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,880
women.
If the wedding band is the price

634
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,200
of admission to sexual
fulfillment, we are creating a

635
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,280
large class of sexual have nots
in women over 40, women who

636
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,040
might not willingly choose a
celibate life.

637
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,680
Particularly bizarre is the
presumption of the church or

638
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,400
state to have a moral basis for
commanding monogamy in a

639
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,320
population that is in imbalance
and where monogamy would ensure

640
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,200
that some members of the
community will be forced into

641
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:50,120
involuntary celibacy.
Anyone who cares about people

642
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,800
should be concerned about this
inhumane social phenomenon.

643
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,560
And his final point in chapter
1?

644
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,720
The situation is even worse for
Christian women.

645
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,960
Unmarried Christian women all
over the world who have not yet

646
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,480
found the godly husband who will
love them as Christ loved the

647
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,200
church, and who can be a caring
father to their children, face

648
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,520
some real problems.
There is evidence to suggest

649
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,560
that the uneven distribution of
men and women is exaggerated

650
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,480
within the church.
This means that the problem is

651
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,400
worse for Christian women than
none.

652
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,400
Paul said in First Corinthians
Chapter 7 that you should be

653
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:25,840
able to get married if you want
to.

654
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,560
Sexual desire is natural and can
only be properly fulfilled

655
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,720
within marriage.
But what is the use of being

656
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:36,160
allowed to marry if you can't
find a good Christian man?

657
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,360
The danger is that you'll have
to settle for less than what you

658
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,280
were entitled to.
So it's been the purpose of this

659
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,000
chapter to merely present the
problems.

660
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,200
There are more women than there
are men.

661
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,200
Wow, yeah, no, I that and and I
can see that, right.

662
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,560
Because if you're, if you are a,
a single woman within the

663
00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:00,480
church, you, you kind of are at
a, a disadvantage here because

664
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,120
at least if you're a woman in
the world, you can, you know,

665
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:07,040
engage.
The pool's a lot larger.

666
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:12,360
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And so this is a real problem,

667
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,520
it sounds like, not just in
Mormonism, but across all of

668
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,520
Christendom, really.
It is.

669
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,360
Fascinating.
Which is the point of this book,

670
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,480
The Great omission.
This is not a Mormon book.

671
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,000
This is written by a Christian
to Christians.

672
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,800
Interesting.
So chapter 2, he doesn't waste

673
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,320
any time.
The divine provision, the

674
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,400
solution from the benevolent God
of Scripture kind of obvious.

675
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:47,000
So I'm just I have a couple of
we'll just highlight a a few of

676
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,360
these quotes.
So this one is by a guy named

677
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,960
James Campbell who actually was
a kind of a contemporary ish of

678
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,920
of Joseph Smith like well, I
guess Moore, Brigham Young.

679
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,840
He this is something James
Campbell wrote in 1869.

680
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:06,960
Who was James Campbell?
James Campbell was a basically a

681
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:12,120
courageous like preacher that
just bucked the Roman Pagan

682
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,880
traditions of monogamy of, of
early of the Christianity of the

683
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,120
1800s and was just like, no,
we're, we're just going to do

684
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,200
what the Bible says.
And so I mean, he got, he gets a

685
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,200
lot of black, obviously, but if
you actually just read his work,

686
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:35,240
the guy's an undeniable genius
or just he's, he's, he's willing

687
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:37,920
to stick to his principles.
That doesn't mean that he always

688
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:39,680
applied these principles
correctly.

689
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:46,680
I'm not saying that he didn't
make some mistakes and, and all

690
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,040
of his ideas are great, but as
far as his, I think his heart

691
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,280
was in the right place.
He, he was like looking at the

692
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,520
Bible and looking around at the
ills of society that he was

693
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,360
encountering and being like,
hey, guys, we're in this boat

694
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,920
because we're not doing what the
Bible says and we need to be a

695
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,400
little more honest and less
hypocritical about this.

696
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,800
So.
Taylor, I'm going to ask you to

697
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,760
do a quick favor for me.
That position that you're in

698
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,600
right there, that's where the
best sound quality right there

699
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,640
is where it's it's coming in.
Like when you lean forward for

700
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,080
some reason your mic is
muffling.

701
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,880
OK.
So sorry about that.

702
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,440
OK, I'll keep leaning forward
then.

703
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,280
All right, perfect.
All right, there are.

704
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,800
Would it be better if I just
ditched the headset do you

705
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,120
think?
It might be.

706
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:33,080
It might be.
Let's.

707
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,520
See if that works.
Let's try this.

708
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,240
How's that?
Oh, that's perfect all.

709
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:39,720
Right.
We'll just go for that.

710
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,920
So this quote from James
Campbell, 1869.

711
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,000
There are many.
There are very many persons,

712
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,680
especially many women, who are
neither married nor have an

713
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,880
opportunity to marry.
By some means they have been

714
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,400
deprived of their rights.
The fault is not theirs.

715
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,800
They would in almost every
instance prefer wedded life if

716
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,320
it were in their power to
attain.

717
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,360
But it is not.
They possess the same

718
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,680
susceptibilities of love, the
same yearning for intimate

719
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,240
companionship that others do,
though these tender

720
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:09,520
sensibilities they are obliged
to repress.

721
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,440
The fault is not in nature, nor
in the laws of God, but it is in

722
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,240
the tyrannical laws and fashions
of the artificial system of

723
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:17,120
social life which now obtains
among us.

724
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,040
This system must be at fault,
for it does not and cannot

725
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,280
provide for the marriage of all.
Many who desire to marry are

726
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,800
forever deprived of husbands and
homes, while the system of

727
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,520
polygamy does provide for all,
and is therefore the only system

728
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,080
which is in harmony with divine
and natural laws.

729
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,280
This proposition is further
demonstrated by the simple fact

730
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,080
that the number of marriageable
women always exceeds the number

731
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,400
of marriageable men.
As it is now, there is not a man

732
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,560
for every woman, and either some
women must remain unmarried and

733
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,400
waste their sweetness on the
desert air and be entirely

734
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,160
deprived of their birthright and
denied all matrimonial

735
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,360
advantages, or they may several
of them agree to share those

736
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,880
advantages in common with each
other by having a single husband

737
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,760
between them.
Polygamy does not compel them to

738
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,720
do this, it only permits them to
do it in case they have no

739
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,920
opportunity to do better.
On the other hand, it does not

740
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,920
compel a man to marry even one
woman, let much less to have

741
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,760
more.
But if the intensity of his

742
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,280
passion urges him to such
lengths that he must have and

743
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,000
will have more than one, it
requires him to take them

744
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,920
honestly and honorably, and to
support them and to be a true

745
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,320
husband to them.
Boom.

746
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,080
And that's James Campbell.
James Campbell.

747
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:27,880
I don't know who James Campbell
is exactly rather than what you

748
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:29,760
just told me, but that dudes on
to some stuff.

749
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,120
Yeah, well, and.
He make he makes a darn good

750
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:39,080
point there, right in that he
he's almost advocating for what

751
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,600
the book is right.
Not only should this be

752
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,000
practice, but you should
practice this not with a sense

753
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,920
of worldly pride, but not being
ashamed, right?

754
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,800
Not necessarily the presence of
pride, but the absence of shame.

755
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,280
And that is something that that
quite frankly, if we're going to

756
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,800
be change agents in the society,
in society, which I believe is a

757
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,200
divine Commission from the
Savior when he talks about being

758
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,240
a light on the hill and not
covering your light with a

759
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:09,240
basket, being the salt to the
earth, that's incumbent upon us

760
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:13,440
to take the laws of God and be
like, come at me, bro, right?

761
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,600
I mean, that's just where we got
to be with it.

762
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,640
You just got to own it and be
don't be a well, what's it?

763
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,240
Is it Timothy?
I think it's like be not that

764
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:30,240
therefore ashamed of the gospel
of our Lord as yeah, anyway,

765
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:32,960
it's it's something like that.
It's basically God for God has

766
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,200
not given us the spirit of fear,
but of power and of loved and of

767
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,800
a sound mind.
Be not thou therefore ashamed of

768
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,080
the testimony of our Lord.
Like we can't we can't apologize

769
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:49,200
for our faith, our testimonies.
This is this is really important

770
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,720
and and the fear I I looked into
it.

771
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:57,880
The fear be not a God hath not
given us the spirit of fear

772
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,880
there.
There's different kind of ways

773
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,160
to interpret that and and
understand that and the way that

774
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,800
the Greek, the word that it
should have probably been

775
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,440
translated into by the
translators is not fear, but

776
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,400
cowardice.
God hath not given us a spirit

777
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,480
of cowardice.
And I see a lot of cowards going

778
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,120
around, you know?
Absolutely.

779
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,760
And, and I want to be sensitive
because I know that they're

780
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,400
societal scars surrounding
Mormon polygamy, right?

781
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:32,920
You know, having your kids taken
away is not just traumatic.

782
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,560
I mean, it is, it is every
parent's worst fear, right?

783
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,240
But I think we're living in a
different time now.

784
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,880
And, and I've said this for a
while, we owe it to those who

785
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,200
came before us, who kept this
whole thing going for us, right?

786
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,320
They did it in the shadows.
They did it in the down low.

787
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,840
They had to, but they kept it
alive.

788
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,560
And I'll, I'll just share a
story here.

789
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,800
When I first started the
podcast, it was a lonely

790
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,640
existence for a while, right?
Because I had a lot of people

791
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,880
from every single direction of
Mormonism, not everybody, but,

792
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,360
but a lot who came out and said,
don't do this.

793
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:12,800
You're going to make our lives
harder.

794
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,000
Please don't do this.
And I just kept, you know,

795
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,520
checking in with the Lord all
the time.

796
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,440
Is this what's going to happen?
Is am I wrong on this?

797
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:21,440
What do I do here?
God.

798
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,800
And it was constantly, you just
keep knocking the door, just

799
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,000
keep going.
And it wasn't long after that

800
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,720
that a really old time someone
who'd been down in the raids

801
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,880
came to me and said, we I was
skeptical when you when I first

802
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:43,760
heard about this, but we're in a
time now where I think all of us

803
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,720
back then would have given our
right arm to be in where we

804
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:52,160
could talk about this so openly.
And and that's, that's not

805
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,480
something to to for me to self
aggrandize myself with.

806
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,560
It's just to illustrate that
even some of our, our older

807
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,920
progenitors are now
understanding times have

808
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,640
changed, right?
The darkness has grown.

809
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,880
That means our light has to
shine brighter.

810
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,120
And this is part of that light,
right?

811
00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:12,840
I don't want to say it's the end
all, be all of the light we have

812
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,800
to offer, but it's a part of it,
right?

813
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:18,520
And we have something to
contribute to the brotherhood of

814
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,000
man on Mass because we
understand this principle and we

815
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,480
understand that it doesn't have
to be a horror show.

816
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,680
We just have to be willing to
not be so secret about it and

817
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,040
come forward.
And I understand that this may

818
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,800
not apply to everybody because
maybe they have a job that is

819
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:38,520
sensitive to this, right?
But at the same time, I think

820
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,640
for a lot of us, the times are
here now where we can let that

821
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,440
line shine a little bit brighter
and we can be those change

822
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,720
agents in society that the
Savior's asked us to be.

823
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,080
Exactly.
Yeah.

824
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,960
All right.
Just continuing on the that with

825
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,120
this book.
So plural marriage allows women

826
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,880
who love God and who are serious
about the family values in the

827
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,600
Bible and opportunity to marry
good Christian men.

828
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,640
Men who are prepared to take a
stand for family values.

829
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,480
Men who read the Bible filled
with the Spirit, looking to

830
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,800
discover what God has to say to
them instead of seeking to

831
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,240
impose their thoughts on God.
Men offering today's Christian

832
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:18,880
women the solution that has
always been in the Bible, the

833
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,240
solution the church forgot.
Simply put, God's provision for

834
00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:26,840
the unmarried woman is marriage.
First Timothy chapter 5, verse

835
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,120
14.
I will therefore that the

836
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,720
younger women marry, bear
children, guide the house, give

837
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:38,400
none occasion to the adversary
to speak reproachfully and when

838
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:43,440
you force a monogamy system and
force a monogamy system, you are

839
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,840
depriving these women of of this
opportunity to obey the counsel

840
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,000
of I guess it's it's Paul.
It's not like a thus saith the

841
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,000
Lord, but still, I'd say that's
good counsel.

842
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,120
It's certainly canonical
biblical counsel.

843
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,320
Well.
It may not be thus, saith the

844
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,880
Lord from Paul, but it sure is
in Doctrine and Covenants.

845
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:04,760
Absolutely.
Yes, exactly.

846
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,520
So again, we have the advantage
that the Christian right, our

847
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,240
Christian brothers don't.
Right.

848
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:16,560
OK, moving on.
This is a really good point.

849
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,680
He This is a quote, a citation
from that attorney, Adriana

850
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,680
Blake.
She says we must look at an

851
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,800
alternative system that can
solve the problem.

852
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,720
This book presents the arguments
for return to plural marriage as

853
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:31,520
the solution to the problem of a
shortage of marriageable men.

854
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:35,400
What we propose is a revolution
in our social structure for the

855
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,160
benefit of women and children.
Plural marriage is a system that

856
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,680
is pro family, pro woman, and
pro child.

857
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,320
If plural marriage were
practiced, the rate of divorce

858
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,360
would be decreased because
divorce would no longer be

859
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,680
necessary.
Men would not not have to

860
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:52,040
abandon one wife to take
another.

861
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:54,800
If plural marriage were
practiced, there would not be

862
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,680
the unnatural phenomenon of
single women competing for

863
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,240
spouses.
Women who wished to marry could

864
00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:03,320
do so.
If plural marriage were

865
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,360
practiced, fewer children would
grow up in fatherless homes.

866
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,200
The father would remain in the
home and the new woman in his

867
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,960
life would augment the family
rather than destroy it.

868
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,040
It is time to return to the
ancient custom of plural

869
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,880
marriage, a social system which
allows women to share a husband.

870
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,880
It was a custom that provided
that no woman had to live

871
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,720
outside the mainstream of
society.

872
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,800
It was a custom that ensured
that no woman lived alone unless

873
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,360
by choice.
It was a custom that protected

874
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,240
women and children and sustain
the family.

875
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,840
It was a custom mentioned
throughout the Old Testament.

876
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,880
It is still practiced in many
societies.

877
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,040
Plural marriage is for the woman
of whatever age, who doesn't

878
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,200
want to live alone, who wants to
be a part of a family, who wants

879
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,080
a man in her life.
The alternative to plural

880
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,480
marriage is overwork for the
single parent, fatherless

881
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,480
children, and loneliness.
Wow and.

882
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:56,480
We so my, my, I love this book
because it completely reframes

883
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:02,200
this whole conversation, right?
Because this conversation is

884
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:10,480
about, you know, most people
when they think of polygamy,

885
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,040
they think it's about a, a guy
having multiple women.

886
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:19,320
What this book makes the case
for is that it's it's actually

887
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:24,080
about providing an opportunity
for every woman to be married

888
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,200
who wants to be to A, to a good
man, Like not just have to

889
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:32,560
settle, right.
And it's a highly honorable

890
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,560
undertaking.
Moving on, providing love, care

891
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,800
and headship for a woman in
marriage is a highly honorable.

892
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:42,080
Oh, I think I kind of alluded to
this earlier, is it's a highly

893
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,480
honorable undertaking to be
married as a, as a man to to

894
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,640
take that responsibility to care
for and provide leadership to

895
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,080
his family.
To expand this to an additional

896
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:52,840
wife is indeed a most noble
cause.

897
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,320
Without a doubt, it should be
the opportunity of every woman

898
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,560
to be cherished and loved by a
husband.

899
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,680
When a young bachelor sets out
to find a wife, he's regarded

900
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,800
with admiration and respect from
all around him.

901
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,320
For the desire to become a
family man is recognized to be 1

902
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,280
of virtue, a determination to
embrace responsibility for

903
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,320
others.
But when the same young man,

904
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,320
grown older and wiser, sets
about to embrace responsibility

905
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,120
for a second wife with her
children while maintaining his

906
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,000
responsible roles in the lives
of his first family, the world

907
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,440
reviles him as a sexual pervert
and a tyrant.

908
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,320
Why is this?
I have openly defended the

909
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,720
plural family principle for more
than 15 years and have often

910
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:32,040
been accused of being immoral.
Yet I am led to wonder who is

911
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,680
more immoral, the person who
defends family relationships

912
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,120
between men and women, or the
ignorant accuser who seemingly

913
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,360
cannot comprehend anything.
Polygamy, plural wives, is

914
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,760
family.
It is founded in liberty and

915
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,640
bonded by that love which is
expressed in the pure giving and

916
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,040
receiving of self.
We've all heard of instances

917
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,800
where soldiers in the heat of
battle sacrificed their lives to

918
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,760
save Congress, to save comrades.
Yet we do not need to die to

919
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,280
obtain this state of existence.
There's an even greater love

920
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,000
than the supreme sacrifice of
death.

921
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,440
Which is greater?
To die for others or to live for

922
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:05,680
them?
Think about it.

923
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,880
To make the decision to give
your life to save in others is

924
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,920
instantaneous.
There is no time to weigh two

925
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,400
sides of the question.
You act upon impulse and impulse

926
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,480
provided by love, by that energy
within you that tells you that

927
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,000
someone else is more important
to you than you are.

928
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:24,200
To give your life in the service
of others is not so simple or

929
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,080
instantaneous as to suffer death
for them.

930
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,480
Giving your life is an everyday
decision, a decision recurring

931
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,120
from every moment to every
moment.

932
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,440
It is not simply one gigantic
gift.

933
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,400
It is one gift, one sacrifice
after another for the rest of

934
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,080
your life.
The celestial person does not

935
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,640
simply sacrifice his life once
he makes the decision to throw

936
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,240
himself on a grenade every day
of his life.

937
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:54,920
Wow, holy cow.
See.

938
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,200
And that goes back to something
I thought of a lot, right?

939
00:54:59,720 --> 00:55:05,560
And he does a beautiful job of
illustrating that as dudes, we

940
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:10,520
tend to look at the ultimate
sacrifice as something that is

941
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,920
the most noblest of noblest.
And look, there are certainly

942
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,720
accounts of that where it
definitely fulfills that

943
00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:21,560
criteria, right?
You know, men in wartime given

944
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:23,320
their lives for their brethren,
right?

945
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,440
But a living sacrifice is
something that continues, right?

946
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,040
And as priesthood holders, you
know, now I'm going to switch to

947
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,480
a more LDS perspective here for
just a second.

948
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,640
As priesthood holders, that's
what we that's what we are,

949
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:41,640
right?
The priesthood isn't something.

950
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,320
That would be yeah it.
Should be it's not something we

951
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,400
get simply for self
aggrandizement.

952
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:50,680
We get the priesthood so that we
can be that living sacrifice so

953
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:55,240
we can be the as it were, the
the arms of the savior in this

954
00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:58,640
world, right.
And part of that is in in family

955
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:03,040
relationships, right?
Our look, our lives are not our

956
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:09,720
own and we have to learn to not
just embrace that, but relish

957
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:11,600
that, right?
Savor that.

958
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,120
I remember, I think I've told
the story on here before, the

959
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,120
first time I lived plural
marriage when I had no idea what

960
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:20,160
I was doing.
Now I have a little idea.

961
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,240
Still not fantastic, but getting
better.

962
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:29,920
I remember I was, I was standing
at my grill and I saw all the

963
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:35,160
kids from, from Amber, my first
wife, my second wife, her kids

964
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:39,040
all playing.
I, I saw Amber and, and my my

965
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,560
other wife out there talking to
each other and laughing and

966
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,680
giggling.
And the weirdest thought

967
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,600
occurred to me in this moment.
I haven't played golf in a year.

968
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,320
Want more from the Mormon
Renegade podcast?

969
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:56,360
Head over to the Mormon Renegade
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970
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,160
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971
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,560
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972
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:07,160
Then join the Mormon Renegade
Locals page by clicking the red

973
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,240
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974
00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:13,720
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975
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:17,680
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live stream show with the host

976
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,160
Dave Sanders.
Click the link in this episode's

977
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,000
show notes today.
And the weirdest thought

978
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,920
occurred to me in this moment.
I haven't played golf in a year,

979
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,000
right?
And now that's a weird thought,

980
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:33,800
but you have to understand who I
am.

981
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:37,280
I'm hyper competitive, right?
Always have been, probably

982
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,760
always will be.
It's just part of who I am, I

983
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,920
think.
And and it takes a few minutes

984
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,840
for it takes a lot for me to
keep that in, in check, right?

985
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:50,080
And so I love to compete, right?
And so I was at a stage in my

986
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:51,840
life where I was done playing
football.

987
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:56,600
I, you know, I wasn't, you know,
engaged in contact sports much

988
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:58,360
anymore.
I had got to that point where it

989
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,120
was starting to hurt.
And so I'd taken up golf because

990
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,680
it was a way to, to release that
low impact, right?

991
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,520
But in that moment I was like, I
haven't played golf in a year

992
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:10,000
now.
It wasn't like crap.

993
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,760
I haven't played golf in a year.
It was like, I don't even miss

994
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,120
it.
I don't even miss it, right?

995
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,360
Because my, I had changed as an
individual and I had tasted

996
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:23,600
that, that fruit of, of being a
husband and father.

997
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:27,880
And you can certainly get that
by being a monogamist.

998
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,480
I don't want to take that away,
but there was something in me

999
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,480
that had changed, right?
I was now living a life of

1000
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:39,160
complete service.
And in that service there was a

1001
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:43,240
quiet joy that I found nowhere
else.

1002
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,720
Nowhere else.
And I still have that same

1003
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,320
competitive fire, but it was
with myself, right?

1004
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,320
It was like, how can I be
better, right?

1005
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:58,200
And so I know it seems
counterintuitive as often the

1006
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,640
things of the Lord are, but you
embrace that challenge and

1007
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,200
there's joy there.
And, and I think that's

1008
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:07,680
something that needs to be
brought out.

1009
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,200
This is not a miserable life,
right?

1010
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,160
This is not a life where you're
like, what was me?

1011
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,720
I'm beating down.
I don't have time to do anything

1012
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,040
else.
Your values and your perspective

1013
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,960
absolutely change.
Yeah, well, and, and I think

1014
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,920
this is probably a good time to
to cover another point I wanted

1015
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:31,880
to make, which was that, you
know, bad men make bad husbands.

1016
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,040
Yep, good men make good
husbands.

1017
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:37,640
Plurality has nothing to do with
that.

1018
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:42,160
Like if if you're a bad, if
you're a bad man, you could have

1019
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,680
one wife for 15 and you're going
to suck as be at being A at

1020
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:51,040
being a husband.
If if you are a good man, you

1021
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,520
know you don't want to bite off
more than you can chew, and you

1022
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,720
certainly need to be led by
revelation and all things, but

1023
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,720
you know if if you are a good
man, you will be a good husband,

1024
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:03,440
whether you have one. 4-5 wives
like it's not about that.

1025
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,400
It's you.
It's we need to cultivate within

1026
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:10,360
ourselves a responsibility to be
good men and because good men

1027
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,960
make good husbands and we need
to raise our sons to be good men

1028
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:15,640
so that they can be good
husbands.

1029
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:20,240
And, and if you're a good man
who has mastered the, the the

1030
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:25,080
ability to take care of a woman
as a wife, emotional, not just

1031
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,840
temporally, but emotionally and
spiritually and all these other

1032
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:33,360
areas of responsibility, then
then you have that opportunity

1033
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:38,920
to sacrifice even more and get
even more blessings and

1034
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,360
experience even more joy, as you
were describing in in that

1035
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,960
experience.
So, yeah, I, I think that we

1036
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:50,440
just need to again, just reframe
this whole conversation.

1037
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:55,560
And because it's not really
about polygamy, it's about how

1038
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,320
how good are the men and women
that are, you know, because

1039
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,560
people, what is it called virtue
signaling?

1040
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,280
People love to virtue signal.
And if you're a polygamist and

1041
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,080
they're monogamous, we have a
society that applauds the virtue

1042
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,640
signaling of, well, you're
immoral.

1043
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:14,680
And therefore I don't have to
listen to what you say or think.

1044
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,960
And so we need to get off of
this obsession with virtue

1045
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,880
signaling and just start, just
do the work, just live a good

1046
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,280
life and be a good husband.
And then the other thing that

1047
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,640
that you brought up just now,
which I think is a really

1048
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:32,640
important point, you know, and,
and sometimes, and I have seen

1049
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:37,000
this in plural families
particularly, but but I've seen

1050
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,760
it in monogamous.
It's it's not a unique problem

1051
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,960
one way or the other, but
sometimes we have this tendency

1052
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:47,240
to look at marriage as, you
know, a functional partnership,

1053
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,000
right?
And you need, you need to be,

1054
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:53,280
you need to be a functional
partnership to have a, a good,

1055
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,720
successful, stable marriage.
But it's much more than that.

1056
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,280
Like it's not just about how
functional the relationship and

1057
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:04,520
how, you know, effective you are
and, and at producing and, and

1058
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,360
raising good children.
You know, it's, it's just as

1059
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:14,840
much this is a love affair.
Like, yeah, eternal marriage

1060
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:16,840
should be an eternal love
affair.

1061
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:20,800
I, I guarantee you, Heavenly
Father and Heavenly Mother are

1062
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:24,040
absolutely madly in love with
one another.

1063
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,440
Absolutely.
And that's how it should be.

1064
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:30,520
And so like we, we should, yes,
we need to work on that

1065
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,760
functional, practical aspect of
applying these principles and,

1066
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:39,160
and, and, and that, but we can't
forget that marriage is, it

1067
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:40,960
should be at least a love
affair.

1068
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:46,320
And our motivation shouldn't be,
well, what will provide the most

1069
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:49,040
temporal comfort?
What's the, the most practical

1070
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,680
thing to do?
Like those are not, not invalid,

1071
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:55,360
but, but there's so much less
important than than some of

1072
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:59,400
these other things that really
we need to cultivate in, and I'm

1073
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:00,880
not just speaking to plural
marriage.

1074
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,600
It's, it's all marriages.
We need to fall back in love

1075
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:10,440
with each other over and over
and over because like, if, if it

1076
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:13,760
was, if there wasn't love, like
just find a good roommate, you

1077
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:20,760
know, And I guess marriages are
intended to last for beyond this

1078
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,240
life.
And you could have a very

1079
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:26,760
practical, functional marriage
relationship in this life, but

1080
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:30,320
eternity is required going to
require so much more sacrifice

1081
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,840
and, and repeated sacrifice.
It's, it's not just a one time.

1082
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:39,560
It's like an eternal sacrifice.
And so we need to be prepared to

1083
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:44,240
do that.
And I think that love is the

1084
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:45,680
answer.
Love is that key.

1085
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:51,640
Absolutely, Absolutely.
All right, shall we keep going?

1086
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,520
Absolutely.
Well, yeah, this is great.

1087
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,920
So this is, yeah, this is a
little repetitive, but I think

1088
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,520
it's I think it's worth doing it
reading a couple of these

1089
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,560
quotes.
So just speaking to the

1090
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:09,440
stability of plural marriages
again, going to Adriana Blake,

1091
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,560
she says there exists today in
the United States a surplus of

1092
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:14,600
women.
These women need to be

1093
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:18,320
accommodated in, accommodated in
stable marriages and families.

1094
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,600
Plural marriages make sense
because they are would be more

1095
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,080
stable than monogamous marriages
because they would be less

1096
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:28,400
susceptible to divorce.
The single woman in her search

1097
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,520
and need for a husband and
father for her children won't

1098
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,240
find it necessary to displace
the present wife in order to

1099
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,320
secure her objective.
Those men who do not treat women

1100
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,040
well will do without.
She could leave for you to find

1101
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:41,600
a household that would welcome
her.

1102
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:47,720
Going back to that physician,
Philip von Hohenheim from like

1103
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,920
500 years ago, he says God
ordained that marriage be

1104
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,200
sacred, but he did not prescribe
the number of wives, neither a

1105
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:56,240
high nor a low 1.
He commanded, Thou shalt be

1106
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:59,280
faithful to thy marriage.
Thou thou shalt not break it.

1107
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:03,040
Now it so happens that God has
always created many more women

1108
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:06,760
than men, and He makes men die
more readily than women, and He

1109
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:08,680
always lets the women survive
and not the men.

1110
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,960
And if there is such a surplus
of women, let it be taken care

1111
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,120
of by marriage, so that the
meaning of God's commandment may

1112
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,520
be heeded.
If this cannot be achieved by

1113
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,920
giving each man one life, he
should have two, or whatever

1114
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:23,680
number may be required to take
care of the surplus.

1115
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:29,440
Hebrews 13, verse four.
Marriage is honorable in all,

1116
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:32,920
and plural marriage is marriage.
Right.

1117
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:38,160
Absolutely, absolutely.
You hit you said something that

1118
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:39,640
that really strikes the chord
with me.

1119
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,040
Plural marriage is marriage.
I have a good friend.

1120
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:45,920
He's a he's a good guy.
He really is.

1121
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:51,600
He he's kind of a he he he's
kind of brash at times.

1122
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:55,320
But one day he cornered me and
he said, all right, I want the

1123
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,440
details.
What's it like to be living as a

1124
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,400
polygamist?
And I said, all right, bro, come

1125
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:03,240
in here real close because I'm
going to give you all the

1126
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,440
details.
So he he gets excited, he leans

1127
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:08,280
in and he goes, OK, well, what
is it?

1128
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,880
I was like, it's like being
married, but twice.

1129
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:14,120
And then I just left it alone,
Right?

1130
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:20,400
I cuz, cuz, but, but my point
there was this it it's not, it's

1131
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:23,600
really probably kind of boring,
right, to be honest with you,

1132
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,400
right?
Like people thrive and they get

1133
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,960
off on like drama and they get
off on on the exotic and that

1134
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,720
sort of thing.
If you saw my house, right?

1135
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:36,960
If people came into my home and
watched how polygamy is here and

1136
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:40,880
I'm only speaking for me how
plural marriage is, it's boring,

1137
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,320
dude, you're not, you're, you're
you're going to be so

1138
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:45,680
disappointed because it's
nothing exotic.

1139
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:51,600
It's just a family, right?
And it, it's marriage, right?

1140
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:57,200
But it requires whether you have
two or whether you have one, it

1141
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,360
requires that work, right?
You have to nurture each one of

1142
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:06,520
those relationships.
Yep well, and I mean, let's be

1143
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:11,320
real honest, like it's there can
be plenty of excitement in

1144
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,120
marriage.
Yep, absolutely.

1145
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:19,040
So but but yeah, it's if people
are looking for like the the

1146
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:23,360
juicy, you know, how do you even
want to put that anyway?

1147
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:30,440
But you I'm sure that's kind of
what your friends want.

1148
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,040
They're expecting to hear.
And but yeah, it's, it's just

1149
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,720
marriage.
So and your marriage is exciting

1150
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:38,520
as you make it.
Exactly.

1151
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:43,000
So exactly, all right, there's
there's I mean, there's plenty

1152
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,160
more.
We got time, OK, And this is the

1153
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:51,040
next chapter and this is diving
into the marital gift of

1154
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:57,440
polygamy and basically like the
religious religion, organized

1155
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,760
religions, destruction of the
biblical family in Western

1156
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:03,400
society, we live under the
hypocritical moral tyranny of

1157
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,200
forced monogamy by government,
society, and religion.

1158
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:08,840
I say hypocritical because all
of these systems are supportive

1159
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,880
of serial polygamy.
All three of these, the

1160
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,080
government, society, and
religion will allow you to take

1161
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:19,520
another wife provided that you
be unfaithful and abandoned your

1162
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:22,600
current one.
Those are man's rules, however,

1163
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,200
and if you are faithful to your
current wife, these systems will

1164
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,760
attempt to prohibit you from
loving another woman and taking

1165
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:30,720
her to be your wife.
These hypocritical systems will

1166
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:34,240
seek to punish faithfulness
while rewarding unfaithfulness.

1167
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,800
If you will pursue a continued
lifestyle of unfaithfulness and

1168
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,720
abandoned each wife in
succession, they would allow you

1169
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:45,160
to have as many wives as you
care to have all one at a time.

1170
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:48,840
But if you are an honorable and
faithful man, you will be

1171
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:52,760
restricted to love, care for,
cherish, and marry only one.

1172
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,279
They will seek to constrain the
broadness of your heart.

1173
01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:00,720
So much for morally righteous
governments, societies and

1174
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:03,040
religions.
Wow.

1175
01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:07,439
That's a good reframing.
Yeah, I guess in Ephesians

1176
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:11,520
chapter 5, verse 25, husbands
love your wives, even as Christ

1177
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:15,200
also loved the church and gave
himself for it.

1178
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:19,640
It's interesting when you
consider that there, you know,

1179
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:23,720
when you when you, when you
finally wake up and realize that

1180
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,319
it's not about one man, it's not
about one true church and all

1181
01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:28,080
the other churches.
What do we have?

1182
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:33,359
We have a plurality of churches,
which by Christ's own analogy

1183
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:37,760
means a plurality of marriages
between the bridegroom and the

1184
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:40,080
bride.
Oh, that's an interesting point,

1185
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:41,720
right.
That's something not even I have

1186
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:48,399
looked at it through that lens,
but no, that, that, that

1187
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:53,200
similitude I guess is, yeah,
that carries a little more

1188
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:56,040
weight considering plural
marriage than what, than what

1189
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:58,400
I'd ever looked at before.
That's fascinating.

1190
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:02,240
Christ is the bridegroom and
we're and the church is the

1191
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:06,880
bride and and we can get over
this whole 11 true church one

1192
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:10,720
man thing.
Christ is even in the even in

1193
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,320
the metaphorical sense.
In that analogy, Christ is a

1194
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,680
polygamist.
Right, right.

1195
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,560
Absolutely.
And this next chapter talks

1196
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:22,440
about Old Testament scriptures
and even Jehovah, the God of the

1197
01:10:22,440 --> 01:10:26,440
Old Testament.
Well, I'll just kind of spoil

1198
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:30,120
this.
We'll get to it, but it remember

1199
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:38,400
how when Jehovah is talking
about his two wives, Ephraim and

1200
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:41,680
Judah or the Israel, the
Northern Kingdom and the

1201
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:44,520
Southern Kingdom and he's
talking about and he's they're

1202
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:46,880
both his wives, what does that
make Jehovah?

1203
01:10:47,480 --> 01:10:49,480
A polygamist.
A polygamist?

1204
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:53,360
Wow, that's only metaphorical.
Whatever, But sure.

1205
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:55,480
But why would you use an analogy
if it was?

1206
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:59,440
If it was so inherently wicked
and evil and immoral, why would

1207
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,120
why would God use that analogy?
Right relationship.

1208
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:06,000
Absolutely.
That's fascinating.

1209
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:09,920
Yeah, that's something I hadn't.
It's good stuff.

1210
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:13,840
Yeah, good stuff.
All right, so the chapter 4

1211
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:17,560
talks about Old Testament
Scripture precedent and we're

1212
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:19,280
going to just read a couple of
these paragraphs.

1213
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:24,480
So there is a great hush hush of
Bible reading and study when it

1214
01:11:24,480 --> 01:11:27,840
comes to some subjects.
One of the greatest of them is

1215
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:29,840
the subject of a man having
multiple wives.

1216
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:33,120
The Bible is literally filled
with these accounts.

1217
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,920
They were a very common style of
family life in biblical times.

1218
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,480
In fact, many of God's greatest
servants were clearly presented

1219
01:11:40,480 --> 01:11:44,320
as having multiple wives.
Is polygamy a sin?

1220
01:11:45,440 --> 01:11:47,840
I've asked many students of the
scriptures about this, bringing

1221
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:49,680
the question into a modern
setting.

1222
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,800
What would they do if they were
in a society that openly allowed

1223
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:55,040
for multiple wives, say an
African tribe?

1224
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:58,320
What if they were to lead a
native man with many wives to

1225
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:00,760
trust in Christ?
What would they instruct this

1226
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:04,680
new believer in Christ to do
regarding his many wives?

1227
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:07,560
Would they instruct him to
divorce and abandoned all of his

1228
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:09,640
wives except the first one,
along with all of their

1229
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:12,000
children?
Would not such a requirement be

1230
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:14,320
absurd?
Those Bible Students with whom I

1231
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:17,080
have spoken have agreed that it
would be ridiculous.

1232
01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:22,000
The law of God-given to Moses
did not forbid multiple wives.

1233
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,960
The law did regulate almost
every area of life, and having

1234
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:28,160
multiple wives was no exception.
If having multiple wives was a

1235
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:32,240
sin, God would have forbidden it
rather than giving laws for its

1236
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:35,360
honorable practice.
Be assured that God has no

1237
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,640
problem communicating His
disapproval of things He

1238
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:40,400
disapproves of.
A man having multiple wives

1239
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:43,600
clearly is a social issue, not a
sin issue.

1240
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:49,440
James Stivers.
He wrote a book called Eros made

1241
01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:52,720
sacred, he says.
Quote.

1242
01:12:53,480 --> 01:12:56,520
In the Hebrew Scriptures we find
both monogamy and polygamy as

1243
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:58,920
accepted and even expected forms
of marriage.

1244
01:12:59,480 --> 01:13:02,480
Commentators embarrassed by the
polygamy in the Bible try to

1245
01:13:02,480 --> 01:13:05,280
mute the subject by insisting
its practice was rare and

1246
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,760
abnormal.
The record does not stand up to

1247
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:10,000
that assumption.
Polygamy was a custom practice

1248
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:14,560
extensively among God's people.
Israelite society was a

1249
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:17,960
polygamous society.
If polygamy is immoral at all,

1250
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:20,440
it is immoral always.
If it happened only once in

1251
01:13:20,440 --> 01:13:22,520
Scripture, with God's approval,
then we are dealing with an

1252
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:25,240
ethical system utterly foreign
to modern moralism.

1253
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:29,240
Moral, moral absolutes.
They cannot have exceptions or

1254
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:33,040
else they are not absolute.
The regulation of polygamy is

1255
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:36,400
prominent in biblical law.
Thus we may interpret the fact

1256
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:40,240
that fact as indicative of its
pervasiveness as a social

1257
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:44,720
custom.
And then through several of

1258
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:48,760
these Old Testament biblical
figures who had multiple wives.

1259
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:52,480
It's just like you can't deny
this Abraham, Jacob, or Israel.

1260
01:13:52,480 --> 01:13:55,720
The House of Israel would not
exist if not if Jacob did not

1261
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:59,480
have right two wives and two
concubines.

1262
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:04,560
Moses, Gideon.
OK check this out Gideon Judges

1263
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:08,480
8 verse 30.
Gideon had many wives, and

1264
01:14:08,480 --> 01:14:11,880
because Gideon had three score
men and ten sons of his body

1265
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:13,960
begotten.
Holy cow.

1266
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:20,120
So 70 got seventy sons.
This dude had seventy sons for

1267
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:23,320
and how is this possible?
The verse answers it.

1268
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:26,800
The next sentence or the next
clause where he had many wives.

1269
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:28,400
Right.
Wow.

1270
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,800
Holy cow.
Gideon was a was legit like, you

1271
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:36,800
know, so this actually maybe is
a good foreshadowing for Jacob

1272
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:40,320
chapter 2 because you know,
Jacob chapter 2 condemns and

1273
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:49,400
even even 132 like take this
idea of many wives is is is

1274
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:50,480
wrong.
It's bad, right.

1275
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:53,720
It's presented as as being not
right before God.

1276
01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:59,080
But but what, what does that
mean?

1277
01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:04,960
Like is it about the number?
Because in Gideon's case, dude,

1278
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:10,640
this guy had many wives, seventy
sons, and he was a champion of

1279
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:14,400
righteousness and for God.
So, so like clearly it's not

1280
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:16,960
about the number.
I think that the, the difference

1281
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:21,840
between Gideon and say David and
Solomon, it has a lot to do

1282
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,680
with, you know, they were the,
the Solomon and David's case.

1283
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:32,720
They were being seduced by their
wives, by the by the gods, like

1284
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:34,760
the Pagan traditions of their
wives.

1285
01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:39,640
And so they were pouring after
after the false gods, whereas,

1286
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:41,280
you know, Gideon obviously
wasn't.

1287
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:46,120
And then the other thing is like
marriages for political unions

1288
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:51,720
for you know, if it if it is
because you know, just as

1289
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,360
monogamist can get married for
lustful reasons.

1290
01:15:54,440 --> 01:15:57,360
So can polygamist.
That is not an ideal that God

1291
01:15:57,480 --> 01:16:00,000
sustains.
So so like we need to be careful

1292
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:03,000
about but many I guess that my
point is in Jacob chapter 2 in

1293
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:06,440
the Book of Mormon, which is the
only scriptural anywhere that in

1294
01:16:06,440 --> 01:16:11,040
any way to any degree condemn
polygamy and it's very limited

1295
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:13,480
to his audience.
Anyway we can go into that more

1296
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:19,480
later, but but like many wise,
it's not about the number it's

1297
01:16:19,480 --> 01:16:25,480
about are we are you incapable
of meeting those wives needs not

1298
01:16:25,480 --> 01:16:27,440
just temporarily, but
spiritually emotionally?

1299
01:16:27,440 --> 01:16:31,400
Are you are you actually like
when you when you have 700 wives

1300
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:34,840
like Solomon did like can you
actually give them the children

1301
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:37,000
that you know they may feel
inspired to bear?

1302
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:39,640
Like these are the types of
things that I think that term

1303
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:42,760
many is about not it's not just
about a number.

1304
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:50,600
OK, Samuel, David, Solomon, Joe
Ash, and of course in David and

1305
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:54,120
Solomon's case, we know that
they they got off track and and

1306
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:57,800
made some bad choices there.
But yeah, OK, here it is Ezekiel

1307
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:02,400
23, verses 2 through 4.
He's talking about the two

1308
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:04,720
sisters, Jerusalem, Samaria, the
the northern Kingdom and

1309
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:09,040
Southern Kingdom.
And he says I was a husband unto

1310
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:11,880
them.
Why would God be the analogy of

1311
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:14,240
multiple, multiple wives for
himself if it were somehow

1312
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:16,200
sinful?
Absolutely.

1313
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:19,680
Absolutely, because there were
different, I mean, there

1314
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:23,520
certainly could have been
different similitudes given,

1315
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:26,440
right, a father and his children
or something like that.

1316
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:30,280
But he goes out of his way to
use the the example of a husband

1317
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:33,560
and wife wives.
Excuse me, I yeah, that's

1318
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:36,040
fascinating.
You know, some, something was

1319
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:39,040
said in there that that I found
absolutely fascinating that you

1320
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:45,280
read where it talked about, you
know, going into Africa or

1321
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,920
Native American tribes and
saying, you know, hey, are we

1322
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:53,320
going to require these guys just
to just to part, part ways with

1323
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:56,040
their other wives?
Well, the sad truth is, is

1324
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:58,520
that's been done both in
Christendom and Mormonism as

1325
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:01,760
well, right?
And that's something, whether

1326
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:05,000
you're a fan of polygamy or not,
should kind of stick in your

1327
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:07,240
craw a little bit, right?
Because what you've done now is

1328
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:09,440
you have dissolved families,
right?

1329
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:13,280
And that's an issue, right?
Whether you agree or disagree

1330
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:17,560
with the principle to just go in
and dissolve a family like that.

1331
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:22,080
I, I cringe at that, right?
If we call Warren Jeffs out for

1332
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:25,560
doing that same crap, we have to
call it out when it's on our

1333
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:28,160
side, right?
And so that's something that

1334
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:32,560
that I think we need to be
cognizant of is, is that this is

1335
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,120
far more natural than people
like to talk about.

1336
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:41,120
I, I have a good friend who,
who, who I, I met while I, I was

1337
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:45,360
working back east.
And then I also saw something on

1338
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:48,440
The History Channel about this,
where they were kind of going to

1339
01:18:48,440 --> 01:18:50,920
The History Channel did this
thing of, you know, what, what

1340
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:55,600
societal collapse looks like.
And the expert said what happens

1341
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:58,160
is, is that you'll see polygamy
come back, right?

1342
01:18:58,160 --> 01:19:01,800
Just just a fact.
If, if humankind is left alone,

1343
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:07,440
that's typically what happens.
And because that is the case, as

1344
01:19:07,440 --> 01:19:10,840
we go out into the world,
especially a world that hasn't

1345
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:14,240
been raised with Western
sensibility and ideals, we're

1346
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:16,600
going to see that.
So that's a question we have to

1347
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:19,640
ask within ourselves.
Now, for guys like you and I,

1348
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,520
it's no big deal, right?
We'll baptize y'all and, and

1349
01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:25,240
we'll seal y'all up and, and
you're good, right?

1350
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:30,560
But for, for churches at large
that adhere to that kind of

1351
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:37,120
Western point of view, right?
That's something you got, you

1352
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:38,520
got to broach and you got to
tackle.

1353
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:44,000
And quite frankly, in my
opinion, if that leads to you

1354
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,640
dissolving a family, you're done
screwed up, son.

1355
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:52,240
You got to, you got to, you got
to understand that this is kind

1356
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:56,040
of the default operating system
for most of humanity throughout

1357
01:19:56,040 --> 01:20:00,880
much of humanity's existence.
Yeah, so in fact, he has an

1358
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:04,560
account of a conversation
between a guy named Walter

1359
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:09,400
Trobish and an African
polygamous man named Omoto.

1360
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:12,640
Walter Trobish states that
Romoto's first wife was

1361
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:14,240
overburdened with work and
wanted help.

1362
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:16,480
Therefore, she asked Omoto to
become a polygamist.

1363
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:21,920
He concluded that it is strange
that missions and churches in

1364
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:25,160
Africa have almost entirely
overlooked the female motive for

1365
01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:27,320
polygamy.
There is justification for it.

1366
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:31,880
The African wife is overburdened
and so Walter, now this is the

1367
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:33,240
conversation.
Walter asks.

1368
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:35,240
Wasn't your first wife
heartbroken when you took a

1369
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:36,480
second wife?
Second one?

1370
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:39,120
Omoto looked at me almost with
pity.

1371
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:41,440
It was her happiest day, he
said.

1372
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:45,960
Tell me how that happened.
Well, one day after she had come

1373
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:48,200
home from the garden and had
fetched wood and water, she was

1374
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:50,520
preparing the evening meal.
Suddenly she turned to me and

1375
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:53,120
mocked me.
He called me a poor man because

1376
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:55,440
I only had one wife.
She pointed to our neighbor's

1377
01:20:55,440 --> 01:20:57,720
wife who could care for her
children while the other wife

1378
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:01,560
prepared the food.
Poor man, Omoto repeated.

1379
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:04,880
I can take a lot, but not that.
And I had to admit she was

1380
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:05,920
right.
She needed help.

1381
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,800
She had hardly picked all.
She had already picked out a

1382
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,360
second wife for me.
They get along fine.

1383
01:21:12,480 --> 01:21:14,440
It was a sacrifice, Omoto
commented.

1384
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:18,800
Her father demanded a very high
lobola, which is bride like a

1385
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:19,880
dowry.
Right.

1386
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:26,360
Omoto speaking to the So she was
an 8 Cal wife, I guess in Mormon

1387
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:31,280
in terms.
Omoto, Speaking of the confusion

1388
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:34,080
that the missionaries bring,
says according to the church, my

1389
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:37,000
wives are considered obedient to
God's will regarding marriage

1390
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:41,600
because each of them had only
one husband, I, the husband and

1391
01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:43,640
father and the only Sinner in
our family.

1392
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:47,120
And you see, Omoto continued,
they are all praying for me that

1393
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:51,000
I might be saved from sin, but
they don't agree from which sin

1394
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:53,600
I must be saved.
What do you mean?

1395
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:56,720
Well, the pastor prays that I
may not continue to commit the

1396
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:59,960
sin of polygamy.
Why, my wives pray that I will

1397
01:21:59,960 --> 01:22:03,880
not commit the sin of divorce.
I wonder whose prayers are heard

1398
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:05,520
first?
Wow.

1399
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:09,400
So your wives are afraid that
you will become a Christian.

1400
01:22:10,280 --> 01:22:12,880
They are afraid that I will
become a church member.

1401
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:15,680
Let's put it that way.
For me, there's a difference.

1402
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:18,360
You see, they can only have
intimate relations with me as

1403
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:20,440
long as I do not belong to the
church.

1404
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:23,360
The moment I become a church
member, their marriage relations

1405
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:26,440
with me become sinful.
Wouldn't you like to become a

1406
01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:29,000
church member?
Don't lead me into temptation.

1407
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:31,960
How can I become a church member
if it means to disobey Christ?

1408
01:22:32,480 --> 01:22:34,600
The church forbids polygamy but
demands divorce.

1409
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:37,000
How can I become a church member
if I want to be a Christian?

1410
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:39,960
For me, there is only one way to
be a Christian without the

1411
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:42,440
church.
Have you ever talked with the

1412
01:22:42,440 --> 01:22:45,240
pastor about that?
He does not dare to talk to me

1413
01:22:45,240 --> 01:22:47,600
because he knows as well as I do
that some of his elders have a

1414
01:22:47,600 --> 01:22:50,080
second wife secretly.
The only difference between them

1415
01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:53,160
and me is that I am honoured,
honest and they are hypocrites.

1416
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:56,160
Did a missionary ever talk to
you?

1417
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:59,880
Yes, once I told him that Europe
and America have a successive

1418
01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:03,480
form of polygamy divorce, while
we have a simultaneous polygamy,

1419
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:06,520
ours is more honest or humane
and that did it.

1420
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:11,120
That missionary never came back.
But tell me, why did you take a

1421
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:12,880
third wife?
I asked him while we were

1422
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:14,560
talking.
I did not take her.

1423
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:17,800
I inherited her and her children
from my late brother.

1424
01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:20,720
Actually, my older brother would
have been next in line, but he

1425
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:22,880
is a church elder and not
allowed to sin by giving

1426
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:26,560
security to a widow.
I looked into his eyes.

1427
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:28,160
Do you want to become a
Christian?

1428
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:34,480
I am a Christian.
Dude, I've never met that dude,

1429
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:38,160
but I want to talk to that dude.
That dude has it figured out.

1430
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:45,040
Holy cow.
So yeah, that's a Moto, an

1431
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:50,320
African polygamist and it's it's
in chapter, whatever that is, 87

1432
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:54,960
or 8, something like that.
So backing up a little bit, I

1433
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:57,720
there was one I kind of just
briefly mentioned, but I want to

1434
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:00,880
actually read the scriptures
that describe this man.

1435
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:07,040
So Joash, you have to completely
just ignore or pretend that the

1436
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:10,880
Old Testament isn't there to to
deny polygamy in the Old

1437
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:13,920
Testament.
You know to to say that there's

1438
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:16,640
anything sinful with polygamy
after reading the Old Testament.

1439
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:20,200
This is a perfect example.
In Second Chronicles chapter 24

1440
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:23,000
verse one, Joash takes the
throne in Jerusalem at the age

1441
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:26,160
of 7 and reigned as a godly king
for 40 years.

1442
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:30,320
The reason for this was that the
priest Jehoiada had taken him

1443
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:33,000
under his wing.
The scriptures say that he quote

1444
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:37,320
did that which was right in the
sight of the Lord all the days

1445
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:39,840
of Jehoiada the priest.
That's verse 2.

1446
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:42,960
Interesting.
Interestingly, the one specific

1447
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:45,960
thing mentioned in the next
verse about Jehoiada's godly

1448
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,800
influence over Joash was that he
as a proxy father, provided the

1449
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:54,320
king with two wives.
And that it was in this context

1450
01:24:54,480 --> 01:24:57,640
context that King Joash did
that, which was right in the

1451
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:01,840
sight of the Lord.
So there are laws, you know,

1452
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:05,160
still not to say that that
there's that the Bible is

1453
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:07,360
infallible like that.
We're not, we're not Sola

1454
01:25:07,360 --> 01:25:09,920
scripture.
That's not Mormonism, but you

1455
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:12,840
have to as far as it's
translated correctly, it is part

1456
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:16,880
of our religion as we do believe
the Bible to be the word of God

1457
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:18,320
as far as it is translated
correctly.

1458
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:21,080
So you would have to prove that
this was a translational error,

1459
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:25,000
which you cannot do.
So in Deuteronomy chapter 21,

1460
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:30,000
verses 15 through 17, it says
that plural marriage, you know,

1461
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:33,240
there's, there's regulations and
it's so that the children to

1462
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:37,880
make sure the children of a
plural wife were not like

1463
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:41,600
forgotten in the in the
inheritance that they were

1464
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:45,040
legitimately entitled to.
OK, so this aspect of the law

1465
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:48,480
actually validated the equality
of additional wives and their

1466
01:25:48,480 --> 01:25:50,520
children.
So although a wife might be

1467
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:53,720
second in the order of time,
they were not secondary.

1468
01:25:53,920 --> 01:25:57,560
That's what these regulations
ensure or are supposed to

1469
01:25:57,560 --> 01:25:59,160
ensure.
And what script?

1470
01:25:59,440 --> 01:26:01,480
Were those were those again
because I'd.

1471
01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:05,320
Run Yeah.
So it's there's several, but so

1472
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:09,080
the Leviticus chapter 18 talks
about that you shouldn't a man

1473
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:13,680
should not marry his wife's
sister unless his wife approves.

1474
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,040
A man was not to marry both a
woman and her mother is that

1475
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:18,080
would have presented confusing
family ties.

1476
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,040
And this is presuming that
you're going to be having

1477
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:24,120
children because I mean, some of
the early days of the church and

1478
01:26:24,120 --> 01:26:26,600
I'm I'm not their judge.
It's possible that maybe

1479
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:28,280
they're, I don't believe that
Joseph and Brigham were

1480
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:29,640
infallible.
Maybe they did make some

1481
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:31,600
mistakes.
But there are certainly records

1482
01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:35,320
of, of plural ceilings of like a
woman and her daughter to the

1483
01:26:35,320 --> 01:26:38,600
same man, which is actually
forbidden in Leviticus chapter

1484
01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:44,320
20, verse 14.
But that, you know, if these

1485
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:47,640
were feelings for time, then
problem solved, mystery solved.

1486
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:52,800
Like if you're not going to be
children, then you know, then

1487
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:57,840
that's basically a moot point.
Exodus chapter 21 tells the man

1488
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:00,800
that tells that if a man marries
an additional wife, he must not

1489
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:03,120
deprive the first wife of her
food, clothing, and sexual

1490
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:05,600
pleasure.
In other words, you he, he has

1491
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:09,200
to be able to take care of of a
second wife before you should

1492
01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:10,840
ever consider taking a second
wife.

1493
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:15,560
Deuteronomy chapter 21, verses
15 through 17 is the one that

1494
01:27:15,560 --> 01:27:19,640
that was there.
And then of course, there's also

1495
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:24,360
the livirate law.
Deuteronomy chapter 25, verses 5

1496
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:29,520
through 6 requires passes away
because he it's, it doesn't say

1497
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:32,920
if the man, if the man's brother
is single, then he takes his

1498
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:34,680
brother's widow and and raises
up.

1499
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:39,880
No, it did the the marriage
marital status of the brother is

1500
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:44,120
not even a consideration in the
livirate law, and therefore it

1501
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:46,960
would absolutely require
polygamy in certain

1502
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:48,840
circumstances.
Right.

1503
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:56,320
And then let's see the the
second law of Deuteronomy 25 is

1504
01:27:56,320 --> 01:27:59,040
much like the first.
It requires a man who had sexual

1505
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:02,080
relations with an unbetrothed
virgin to marry her.

1506
01:28:03,240 --> 01:28:06,080
So like in LDS terminology, that
would be called fornication.

1507
01:28:06,080 --> 01:28:12,120
Like if you know if the man or
no, if a married man has

1508
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:15,440
relations with an unmarried
woman, the LDS church says

1509
01:28:15,440 --> 01:28:20,400
that's adultery.
The Bible says no, that's just

1510
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:24,320
you've now got you've now you're
now responsible for another

1511
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:27,400
wife.
Congratulations, right.

1512
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:33,760
And so in neither of these laws
are are there exceptions given

1513
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:38,640
if the man is already married.
In other words, it you know, if

1514
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:43,520
that happened it the the Bible
requires polygamy absolutely

1515
01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:45,000
requires it.
You can't get around it.

1516
01:28:46,360 --> 01:28:52,720
One other thing, in Deuteronomy
chapter 24 verse 5, it it says

1517
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:56,600
that when a man has taken a new
wife and so this idea of a new

1518
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:59,840
wife.
So like if a man gets married

1519
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:04,800
the first time, he's not
marrying a new wife, right, He's

1520
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:09,640
marrying a wife.
The word new is is in contrast

1521
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:12,400
to old obviously reference to
the taking of an additional

1522
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:14,160
wife.
So the word new is translated

1523
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:18,600
fresh by the King James Version
in Job chapter 29 verse 20.

1524
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:21,600
Kadosh is the word in Hebrew in
Hebrew.

1525
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:27,440
So Proverbs chapter 18 verse 22.
Who so finds the wife, finds a

1526
01:29:27,440 --> 01:29:29,960
good thing and obtains favor of
the Lord.

1527
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:34,720
Proverbs chapter 18, verse 22.
So the principle of plural

1528
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:36,880
marriage is firmly established
in the pages of the Hebrew

1529
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:39,080
Scriptures.
Plural marriage was clearly God

1530
01:29:39,080 --> 01:29:41,960
honored, just as monogamy was.
God, in His great love and

1531
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:43,680
wisdom had planned it, has
planned it this way.

1532
01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:46,600
He's graciously furnished a
marital answer for the surplus

1533
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:48,600
of women by making,
establishing, and blessing the

1534
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:50,440
practice of men having more than
one wife.

1535
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:52,440
Marriage is the union of a man
and a woman.

1536
01:29:52,480 --> 01:29:55,280
Polygamy is simply the
duplication of that blessed act.

1537
01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:59,200
Hebrews 13, verse four.
Marriage is honorable in all.

1538
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,000
In God's economy, marrying an
additional wife is marriage, and

1539
01:30:03,000 --> 01:30:07,360
marriage is honorable in all.
Matthew chapter 22, verse 29.

1540
01:30:07,680 --> 01:30:11,680
Jesus answered and said unto
them, You do err not knowing the

1541
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:14,080
Scriptures.
It has been the purpose of this

1542
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:16,880
chapter to demonstrate that
plural marriage is a scriptural

1543
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:18,560
precedent of Old Testament
times.

1544
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:24,160
Wow.
OK, Chapter 5, The New Testament

1545
01:30:24,440 --> 01:30:27,920
scriptural precedent.
We must admit that the Bible

1546
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:30,400
nowhere directly condemns
polygamy and nowhere directly

1547
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:33,440
affirms monogamy as the only
legitimate marriage arrangement.

1548
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:36,000
Furthermore, polygamy is
definitely not viewed in

1549
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:39,800
Scripture as sexual impurity,
contrary to church teaching in

1550
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:42,760
bold statements.
Oh, and that was Anyway, he's

1551
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:44,720
got the sources here, contrary
to church teaching in bold

1552
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:47,000
statements, that the New
Testament corrects polygamy and

1553
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:49,360
makes monogamy the only
possibility for humanity.

1554
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:52,640
There is not one statement in
all the New Testament that says

1555
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:57,600
this.
Let's go in.

1556
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:00,640
I mean, it's so good marriage
system.

1557
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:02,400
I'm just going to keep reading,
if that's all right.

1558
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:06,400
The system of polygamy never
formed a part of that ceremonial

1559
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:09,600
dispensation which was abrogated
or ended by the New Testament,

1560
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:12,800
nor has it ever been proved that
the New Testament was designed

1561
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:15,800
to affect any change in it.
But the presumption is, that

1562
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:20,560
this new dispensation has also
left it, as it found it, abiding

1563
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:24,120
still in force.
If any change were to be made in

1564
01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:26,960
an institution of such long
standing, confirmed by positive

1565
01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:30,560
law, it could obviously made
only by equally positive and

1566
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:33,320
explicit ordinances or
enactments of the gospel.

1567
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:38,280
Yet such enactments are wanting.
Christ Himself was altogether

1568
01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:41,200
silent in respect to Poly, not
once alluding to it.

1569
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:45,000
Yet it was practiced at the time
of His admin throughout Judea

1570
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:47,680
and Galilee, and in all the
other countries of Asia and

1571
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:51,080
Africa, and without doubt by
some of His own disciples.

1572
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:55,040
The book of the Acts is equally
silent as the four Gospels are.

1573
01:31:55,160 --> 01:31:57,640
No allusion to it is found in
any of the sermons or

1574
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:00,480
instructions or discussions of
the apostles and early Saints

1575
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:03,720
recorded in that book.
It was not because Jesus or the

1576
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:06,360
Apostles dared not to condemn
it, had they considered it

1577
01:32:06,360 --> 01:32:08,280
sinful, that they did not speak
of it.

1578
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:11,680
For Jesus hesitated not to
denounce the sins of hypocrisy,

1579
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:14,720
covetousness and adultery, and
even to alter and amend,

1580
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:17,000
apparently, the ancient laws
respecting divorce and

1581
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:20,360
retaliation.
But he never once rebuked them

1582
01:32:20,360 --> 01:32:23,760
for their polygamy, nor
instituted any chain system.

1583
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:27,280
This uniform silence, so far as
it implies anything, implies

1584
01:32:27,280 --> 01:32:31,080
approval.
So we let's look at the

1585
01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:34,680
historical period of the earthly
life of Christ, Raymond Lawrence

1586
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:39,840
junior writes.
Josephus, writing in the 1st

1587
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:43,400
century, tells his Roman readers
of the long standing Jewish

1588
01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:49,160
custom of marrying many wives.
Christian scholarship especially

1589
01:32:49,160 --> 01:32:52,760
has shown a tendency to wish
away 1st century Palestinian

1590
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:56,240
polygamy, Eugene Hillman adds.
In the Jewish communities of

1591
01:32:56,240 --> 01:32:58,000
that time, however, polygamy was
still practiced.

1592
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:00,240
Josephus, the Jewish historical
writer of the 1st century,

1593
01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:03,040
mentions in two places that this
custom still existed among his

1594
01:33:03,040 --> 01:33:05,040
people.
The Lord certainly must have

1595
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:07,440
known that polygamy still
existed amongst his Jewish

1596
01:33:07,440 --> 01:33:11,280
contemporaries if his teaching
on marriage was intentionally

1597
01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:14,840
incompatible with his immemorial
custom, we might expect to find

1598
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:17,240
some clear statement of His
against the permissiveness of

1599
01:33:17,240 --> 01:33:20,240
the Mosaic Law.
We might expect to find at least

1600
01:33:20,240 --> 01:33:22,840
a clear hint of disapproval in
the one passage where Jesus

1601
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:26,840
actually discussed the practice
of levirate marriage, Matthew

1602
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:29,240
chapter 22, verses 22, three
through 30.

1603
01:33:29,840 --> 01:33:32,120
This practice frequently,
perhaps even more often than

1604
01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:35,800
not, involve polygamy, for
marriage was so highly

1605
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:38,280
maesteemed among the Jews that
men as well as women normally

1606
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,000
married at an early age, usually
just after puberty, and

1607
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:43,240
bachelors must have been very
rare indeed.

1608
01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:46,840
So it may be assumed that
levirate marriages must be must

1609
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:48,960
very frequently have been
polygamous.

1610
01:33:51,160 --> 01:33:55,640
So Christ uses the analogy of
the of if one, you know, when

1611
01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:57,960
he's talking to the Sadducees,
right, about the resurrection

1612
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:05,080
and if one husband dies, then
the the second if, if the man

1613
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:08,400
die, if the first brother dies,
then the second brother is to

1614
01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:11,040
take the widow.
And, and the, the, the I just

1615
01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:14,360
see, we're trying to make this
like stupid argument about,

1616
01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:18,000
well, if the resurrection is a
thing, then it can't, it must

1617
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:21,520
not be able to be a thing
because you know who's going to

1618
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:25,600
have this woman in the
resurrection And you know, his,

1619
01:34:26,240 --> 01:34:28,240
his answer is a mystery to a lot
of Christians.

1620
01:34:28,240 --> 01:34:31,360
We obviously understand that,
you know, they're the after the

1621
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:33,520
resurrection.
Men are not and women don't.

1622
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:39,440
But like the obvious answer is
it's the first like if there's

1623
01:34:39,440 --> 01:34:42,880
if marriage is eternal.
So we as Mormons, we have a

1624
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:46,040
unique perspective.
It's kind of it's gotten trendy

1625
01:34:46,040 --> 01:34:49,040
in recent years, but you know,
go back to the 1830s and 40s,

1626
01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:51,120
nobody was talking about eternal
marriage.

1627
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:55,040
Like that was not a thing.
And so that was a revolutionary

1628
01:34:55,480 --> 01:34:59,080
kind of concept.
And and since one thing that we

1629
01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:03,240
hold dear as Mormons, like,
like, what's the point of all of

1630
01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:06,400
this work and sacrifice that we
do in the temple and all these

1631
01:35:06,400 --> 01:35:09,000
things?
If it's if like, no, we're

1632
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:12,000
interested in in having an
eternal family and return it,

1633
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:14,800
internal marriage relationship
and eternal austerity and all

1634
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:16,760
that stuff.
That's the that's the point of

1635
01:35:16,760 --> 01:35:18,680
Mormonism, right?
At least it's.

1636
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:22,320
Absolutely.
The main points for me and why I

1637
01:35:22,320 --> 01:35:27,120
love Mormonism and and and
believe it so dearly, it's

1638
01:35:27,120 --> 01:35:32,680
because so but but so if this
was not a commonly understood

1639
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:36,120
thing, then it makes sense that
there would be maybe some debate

1640
01:35:36,120 --> 01:35:39,000
about resurrection and lack of
understanding.

1641
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:42,000
And, and so the Christians
reading it centuries later

1642
01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:43,840
obviously may not have
understood that either.

1643
01:35:43,840 --> 01:35:48,080
And so it becomes this mystery
and and but but but from al DS

1644
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:52,200
perspective, like A1 those of us
who have the restoration, it's

1645
01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:56,520
obvious, like the first wife,
they're the first brother is the

1646
01:35:56,520 --> 01:36:00,640
one who we'll have that woman as
his wife in in eternity because

1647
01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:04,720
she was his wife and the other
brothers were just performing

1648
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:08,760
their live irate duties.
So all right.

1649
01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:12,000
I, I want to, I want to take
just a moment here and, and

1650
01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:14,680
address a few things that you
said there, please.

1651
01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:18,080
So there was a section there
where you read where it talked

1652
01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:23,160
about in in ancient Israel, you
know, usually when someone

1653
01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:26,280
became a teenager, they were
getting ready to be married.

1654
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:30,080
I want to make it very clear
this book does not advocate for

1655
01:36:30,080 --> 01:36:33,200
child brides.
He says so like on on the back

1656
01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:36,720
cover, right?
This, and I don't advocate for

1657
01:36:36,720 --> 01:36:38,680
that.
You do not do that.

1658
01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:42,840
That is something that will will
absolutely do damage to people.

1659
01:36:43,240 --> 01:36:46,640
And so I want to get that out of
the way that this was simply

1660
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:50,280
explaining what the culture of
the time was in Israel, right.

1661
01:36:50,640 --> 01:36:55,120
And then there's doctrinal
things and, and cultural things

1662
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:58,520
and those cultural things we
have to be very cognizant of and

1663
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:02,760
make sure that that that those
cultural things that that were

1664
01:37:02,760 --> 01:37:05,480
acceptable due to short
lifespans, those sorts of things

1665
01:37:05,480 --> 01:37:10,440
aren't being practiced today.
Next, he, you, you, you, you

1666
01:37:10,440 --> 01:37:13,360
make a great point there.
And and so is the author as you

1667
01:37:13,360 --> 01:37:17,760
were reading him about the fact
that it wasn't necessarily

1668
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:21,200
ubiquitous, but it was way more
common than what it is today,

1669
01:37:21,400 --> 01:37:23,080
right?
This this idea of plural

1670
01:37:23,080 --> 01:37:25,480
marriage.
And so when you you receive

1671
01:37:25,480 --> 01:37:30,600
arguments from from those on the
other side, Michelle Brady Stone

1672
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:32,080
you.
You.

1673
01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:35,640
Typically get get this idea of
well, why isn't it mentioned

1674
01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:37,680
more?
My contention is that in the Old

1675
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:40,400
Testament is absolutely
mentioned a ton.

1676
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:45,640
And in the New Testament, look,
there's kind of this thing in in

1677
01:37:45,640 --> 01:37:49,120
the news media where, you know,
I, I had a buddy who worked for

1678
01:37:49,120 --> 01:37:53,480
a news, a news station in Idaho
and he used to say, if it

1679
01:37:53,480 --> 01:37:58,000
bleeds, it leads, right, Meaning
that it's more sensational,

1680
01:37:58,120 --> 01:38:02,000
right.
And so if you have exam, if if

1681
01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:05,640
kind of a norm is happy,
healthy, well functioning plural

1682
01:38:05,640 --> 01:38:08,200
families, well, they're not
going to mention it, right?

1683
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:12,640
It's it's a social given, right.
And so in this case not the

1684
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:16,360
reason that.
There's a reason that TLC loves

1685
01:38:16,360 --> 01:38:19,200
it when people there's.
It's drama, right?

1686
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:21,720
Yeah, it's.
Absolutely, absolutely.

1687
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:25,720
And in this case, it's not
always can you, can you fall

1688
01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:28,320
back to this, but sometimes it
applies and I think it applies

1689
01:38:28,320 --> 01:38:34,080
here is that the absence of
evidence can be evidence in and

1690
01:38:34,080 --> 01:38:36,320
of itself, right?
You have to be careful where you

1691
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:38,120
apply that.
But I think in this argument

1692
01:38:38,520 --> 01:38:41,040
it's very strong in in that.
Direction.

1693
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:47,640
Absolutely.
So in that last point, the

1694
01:38:47,640 --> 01:38:51,040
principle of the levirate
marriages did often require

1695
01:38:51,040 --> 01:38:53,760
polygamy, and that was clearly
practicing Christ Day.

1696
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:57,480
Christ Himself alludes to it,
and that there's further

1697
01:38:57,480 --> 01:38:59,800
evidence from the Lord Himself
that demonstrated the

1698
01:38:59,800 --> 01:39:03,040
honorableness of the practice of
plural marriages in his parable

1699
01:39:03,040 --> 01:39:06,480
of the 10 virgins.
In this teaching, 10 virgins

1700
01:39:06,480 --> 01:39:08,920
awaited their bridegroom for
marriage.

1701
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:12,080
Matthew chapter 25 verses one
through 13.

1702
01:39:14,080 --> 01:39:17,280
Paul also confirms the principle
of plural marriage when writing

1703
01:39:17,280 --> 01:39:19,200
to the Corinthians.
He does so, in fact, by

1704
01:39:19,200 --> 01:39:22,640
presenting a situation where God
requires polygamy.

1705
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:27,280
Mark Henkel, a national polygamy
advocate, articulates this

1706
01:39:27,280 --> 01:39:30,280
example well.
So this is from a guy named Mark

1707
01:39:30,280 --> 01:39:33,640
Henkel.
He asks, is polygamy commanded

1708
01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:36,800
of God in the New Testament?
There absolutely is an example

1709
01:39:36,800 --> 01:39:39,800
in the Bible where God does
command a situation of polygamy.

1710
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:43,400
First Corinthians Chapter 7,
verses 10:00 and 11:00, and also

1711
01:39:43,400 --> 01:39:46,240
27 and 28.
In First Corinthians Chapter 7,

1712
01:39:46,240 --> 01:39:49,160
the apostle Paul differentiates
when he is making his own

1713
01:39:49,160 --> 01:39:52,880
recommendation.
See verses 612 and 25, and when

1714
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:56,680
he is expressing the commandment
of the Lord in verses 10 and 11.

1715
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:01,080
Indeed, in verses 10 and 11,
Paul clarifies that the

1716
01:40:01,080 --> 01:40:04,640
instruction in those two verses
is quote the commandment of the

1717
01:40:04,640 --> 01:40:06,600
Lord.
It should therefore be noted

1718
01:40:06,600 --> 01:40:09,480
that the other areas in which he
clarifies as being only his

1719
01:40:09,480 --> 01:40:13,040
recommendation cannot be used to
otherwise and incorrectly assert

1720
01:40:13,040 --> 01:40:15,240
that God Himself is creating
some sin or doctrine.

1721
01:40:15,520 --> 01:40:18,960
After all, Paul's ultimate
recommendation therein is

1722
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:21,560
celibacy.
With that realized, it is clear

1723
01:40:21,560 --> 01:40:24,760
for readers of the Bible that
Paul makes it emphatically clear

1724
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:28,400
Verses 10 and 11 are different,
namely, 10 and 11, in the exact

1725
01:40:28,400 --> 01:40:30,840
way in which they are actually
written, Are the commandment of

1726
01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:32,320
God.
What do they say?

1727
01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:37,520
And unto the married I command,
yet not I, but the Lord.

1728
01:40:38,040 --> 01:40:43,040
Let not the wife depart from her
husband, but if she departs, let

1729
01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:47,280
her remain unmarried or be
reconciled to her husband, and

1730
01:40:47,280 --> 01:40:50,320
let not the husband put away his
wife.

1731
01:40:50,720 --> 01:40:54,120
The believing husband is
commanded of God to not put away

1732
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:57,880
any wife and to let any departed
wife return back to him.

1733
01:40:58,400 --> 01:41:01,280
The point the key is that the
husband is not given the same

1734
01:41:01,280 --> 01:41:06,640
commandments of instruction, OK?
Only the wife is commanded to

1735
01:41:06,640 --> 01:41:10,520
remain unmarried.
The husband is not given that

1736
01:41:10,520 --> 01:41:13,800
commandment.
He's commanded of God to let her

1737
01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:15,880
stay married.
And in case you may come back

1738
01:41:15,880 --> 01:41:20,880
later, he is commanded of God to
let her be married to him either

1739
01:41:20,880 --> 01:41:22,240
way.
Accordingly, the husband is of

1740
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:24,120
course still free to marry
another wife.

1741
01:41:24,640 --> 01:41:28,760
Verses 27 and 28.
First Corinthians chapter 727

1742
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:30,960
and 28.
Art thou bound unto a wife?

1743
01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:34,240
Seek not to be loosed.
Art thou loosed from a wife?

1744
01:41:34,840 --> 01:41:38,880
Seek not a wife, but an if thou
marry, thou has not sinned.

1745
01:41:38,880 --> 01:41:41,120
And if a Virgin Mary, she has
not sinned.

1746
01:41:41,840 --> 01:41:45,440
So the Greek is is clearly only
addressing married men, whether

1747
01:41:45,440 --> 01:41:47,560
the wife, whether or not the
wife has departed.

1748
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:50,480
So as such, the married man
whose wife is still with him

1749
01:41:50,480 --> 01:41:53,040
does not sin when he marries
another wife who is not

1750
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:55,720
another's wife.
And likewise the married man

1751
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:59,040
whose wife has departed from
him, he also does not sin when

1752
01:41:59,040 --> 01:42:01,400
he marries another wife who's
not another man's wife.

1753
01:42:01,760 --> 01:42:04,280
Here in comes the command of the
Lord of Plutomy, as in the

1754
01:42:04,280 --> 01:42:08,640
following situation.
Say a believing wife leaves her

1755
01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:11,440
believing husband.
She's commanded of God to remain

1756
01:42:11,440 --> 01:42:13,080
unmarried.
Verses 10 through 11.

1757
01:42:13,160 --> 01:42:15,800
Her husband, however,
subsequently marries another

1758
01:42:15,800 --> 01:42:18,520
wife who's a virgin.
Like not married to someone else

1759
01:42:18,520 --> 01:42:22,160
and not another man's wife.
The husband and the new wife

1760
01:42:22,520 --> 01:42:26,000
have not sinned her.
Verses 27 and 28.

1761
01:42:27,440 --> 01:42:31,000
Let's say the first wife.
The departed wife then seeks to

1762
01:42:31,000 --> 01:42:35,600
be reconciled to her husband in
that situation.

1763
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:38,000
Verses 10 through 11 show the
following instruction as the

1764
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:40,960
commandment of the Lord.
The husband is commanded of God

1765
01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:45,680
to let the departed wife be
reconciled back to him, and he

1766
01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:49,480
is commanded of God to not put
away a wife, including the new

1767
01:42:49,480 --> 01:42:52,840
wife.
As such, verses 10 through 11

1768
01:42:52,840 --> 01:42:55,800
show that it is an outright
commandment of the Lord to

1769
01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:59,160
practice polygamy for that
family in that situation.

1770
01:42:59,960 --> 01:43:03,120
First Corinthians chapter
Chapter 7, verses 10 through 11

1771
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:06,840
is indeed a commandment of God
in the New Testament, that when

1772
01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:10,480
a previously departed believing
wife returns her believing

1773
01:43:10,480 --> 01:43:14,360
husband and his new believing
wife must let that previous wife

1774
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:18,120
be reconciled to her husband.
So there truly is a commandment

1775
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:20,880
of the Lord for a situation of
polygamy in the New Testament.

1776
01:43:21,440 --> 01:43:24,000
Wow.
Let let me ask you this Taylor,

1777
01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:27,080
because I, I think we got to
give some, some context for

1778
01:43:27,080 --> 01:43:30,240
this, right?
Are we saying that a woman

1779
01:43:30,240 --> 01:43:33,720
should never divorce her husband
ever, no matter the situation?

1780
01:43:36,400 --> 01:43:44,800
No, there are instant obviously,
if like if there's abuse, I, I

1781
01:43:44,800 --> 01:43:50,040
don't think that God is
requiring women to never remarry

1782
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:53,000
and, and stay with an abusive
husband and like that's her

1783
01:43:53,400 --> 01:43:57,160
eternal damnation, like
punishment or whatever.

1784
01:43:57,160 --> 01:44:02,920
I, I, I think that those things
have to be governed by

1785
01:44:02,920 --> 01:44:10,000
revelation talks.
He gives a discourse that was

1786
01:44:10,120 --> 01:44:14,920
not widely rewarded, but it's
really talks about how it

1787
01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:19,040
requires for a woman to be like,
especially a woman sealed.

1788
01:44:19,480 --> 01:44:21,280
We're so we're, we're not just
talking about marriage in this

1789
01:44:21,280 --> 01:44:23,880
context, we're talking about a
ceiling, right.

1790
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:27,600
And so let's say, let's in a, in
a situation where somebody is

1791
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:31,000
sealed up by the, by the
priesthood and, and you know,

1792
01:44:31,400 --> 01:44:35,480
like the ordinance, it's, it's
a, it's a priesthood ordinance,

1793
01:44:35,480 --> 01:44:38,600
not just a, a consensual
relationship in this context.

1794
01:44:39,160 --> 01:44:43,800
And so, yeah, when that, when
that is the case, you know, the

1795
01:44:44,040 --> 01:44:48,480
the there are additional
criteria which must be met.

1796
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:52,880
Interestingly, Brigham Young
talks about one of the criteria

1797
01:44:52,920 --> 01:44:59,680
being that the the man whom she
remarries must have a higher

1798
01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:04,520
priesthood than her first
husband held.

1799
01:45:05,720 --> 01:45:12,480
And and so like, because it's
basically, and I'm not aware of

1800
01:45:12,480 --> 01:45:13,880
like a revelation thus saith the
Lord.

1801
01:45:13,880 --> 01:45:18,440
But that is what that's what
Brigham established as the

1802
01:45:18,440 --> 01:45:22,520
policy and and I believe he
attributed it to Joseph, OR or

1803
01:45:22,520 --> 01:45:24,880
at least like it was a, it was a
collective decision, not like a

1804
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:26,960
unilateral Brigham set the saith
Brigham.

1805
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:31,400
This was a policy that was
guided by revelation and it was

1806
01:45:31,400 --> 01:45:33,120
established.
It was not public.

1807
01:45:33,960 --> 01:45:40,000
It was not publicly talked about
much because then you have like

1808
01:45:41,240 --> 01:45:45,040
just men, well, who has higher
priesthood, right?

1809
01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:49,680
Who has higher priesthood and he
can go after the most white.

1810
01:45:49,680 --> 01:45:54,280
It's stupid.
And so this was not a broadly

1811
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:57,400
understood or discussed topic in
Brigham's day, but it's there.

1812
01:45:57,800 --> 01:46:02,200
And so, but yeah, like there,
I'm not saying that there are no

1813
01:46:02,200 --> 01:46:06,680
exceptions and that all women
are condemned to suffer with a

1814
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:09,720
crappy husband for eternity.
Like that's like the opposite of

1815
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:13,200
the point of polygamy.
If you find yourself in a, in a

1816
01:46:13,200 --> 01:46:17,120
broken relationship, polygamy,
it gives you the opportunity to

1817
01:46:17,600 --> 01:46:22,600
get out of that abusive,
dangerous situation and still

1818
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:24,640
have prospects.
Because like, here's the thing,

1819
01:46:25,160 --> 01:46:29,000
there are a lot of women who get
out of bad relationships, but

1820
01:46:29,000 --> 01:46:31,440
especially if they got a couple
of kids, like that's baggage.

1821
01:46:31,480 --> 01:46:35,320
You know, it's way harder for
that woman to remarry at that

1822
01:46:35,320 --> 01:46:39,760
point, you know what I mean?
And so so plural marriage

1823
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:43,360
actually protects a woman in
that type of situation from

1824
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:48,760
getting totally screwed.
Right, Absolutely, absolutely.

1825
01:46:49,000 --> 01:46:51,960
I just wanted to, to kind of
broach that so that maybe people

1826
01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:55,360
who aren't Mormon can kind of
understand where we're coming

1827
01:46:55,360 --> 01:46:58,640
from on that, right?
That those scriptures should

1828
01:46:58,640 --> 01:47:05,200
never be used in a context of an
abusive dirtbag to be able to

1829
01:47:05,200 --> 01:47:08,040
look at his wife who he's
abusing and be like, you're

1830
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:10,080
stuck with me, babe.
I ain't got nothing for you,

1831
01:47:10,560 --> 01:47:13,320
right?
And so I, I wanted to kind of

1832
01:47:13,320 --> 01:47:17,040
get that out of the way.
But it is interesting that the

1833
01:47:17,040 --> 01:47:21,640
Lord is very clear on this.
This is not the ideal of of just

1834
01:47:21,640 --> 01:47:24,000
getting divorced, right?
And the war talks about

1835
01:47:24,000 --> 01:47:27,760
reconciliation between those
relationships quite frequently.

1836
01:47:29,440 --> 01:47:33,920
And I'll just call it like I see
it, not in all circumstances,

1837
01:47:34,080 --> 01:47:37,080
right?
I want to be very clear on this,

1838
01:47:37,480 --> 01:47:40,720
but most marriages that fail,
quite frankly, from my

1839
01:47:40,720 --> 01:47:45,760
perspective, not, and again, not
all, but some tend to be out of

1840
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:48,360
laziness more than anything
else, right?

1841
01:47:48,680 --> 01:47:50,640
I don't want to deal with you
anymore.

1842
01:47:50,960 --> 01:47:53,960
We're, we're done, we're out.
You know it.

1843
01:47:53,960 --> 01:47:58,360
It's too, it's too easy to have
a divorce in my opinion, in

1844
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:00,840
today's day and age.
And we're, we're seeing the

1845
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:04,080
social consequences of that kind
of thing where the Lord's

1846
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:06,200
standard is, Hey, you work this
out.

1847
01:48:07,800 --> 01:48:10,440
You absolutely 100% work this
out.

1848
01:48:10,800 --> 01:48:14,280
And and I think that has to be
first and foremost.

1849
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:19,040
But likewise, I mean, it's
overall point though is that no

1850
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:22,320
plural marriages mentioned in
the New Testament.

1851
01:48:22,840 --> 01:48:26,360
It's just not as explicit and we
shouldn't expect it to be

1852
01:48:26,360 --> 01:48:31,160
because it was so frequently
practiced well.

1853
01:48:31,160 --> 01:48:34,080
And not only that we, we
probably won't have time today,

1854
01:48:34,080 --> 01:48:39,720
but maybe if we, if we have an
extra conversation, there is

1855
01:48:40,960 --> 01:48:44,680
history like there's some
fascinating history about.

1856
01:48:45,080 --> 01:48:51,560
So, for instance, what if the
King James translators had a

1857
01:48:51,560 --> 01:48:53,960
conflict of interest on this
topic?

1858
01:48:55,720 --> 01:48:58,240
Yeah.
Is there is it possible that

1859
01:48:58,240 --> 01:49:04,160
there could have been an an
impetus for bias, right.

1860
01:49:06,400 --> 01:49:10,720
For instance, what if the man
who commissioned the King James

1861
01:49:10,720 --> 01:49:14,840
translators to do the King James
translation, IE King James

1862
01:49:15,920 --> 01:49:22,240
wasn't about an anti polygamist?
Do we have history of that?

1863
01:49:22,920 --> 01:49:24,840
We got that.
It's actually in the same book.

1864
01:49:25,720 --> 01:49:28,640
You know, I don't think we have
time today, but I wanna, I

1865
01:49:28,640 --> 01:49:32,000
wanna, I wanna finish up this
this thought because going on

1866
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:35,360
into in still in first
Corinthians Chapter 7, I wanna

1867
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:37,920
address a couple other things.
And that was a that was a little

1868
01:49:37,920 --> 01:49:43,000
bit of foreshadowing, but so in
the, in the first part of the

1869
01:49:43,000 --> 01:49:45,160
same chapter, First Corinthians
7, there's a verse that is

1870
01:49:45,160 --> 01:49:47,240
sometimes used to oppose plural
marriage.

1871
01:49:48,200 --> 01:49:50,440
And the verse is verses one
through 2.

1872
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:52,920
Now concerning the things
whereof you wrote to me, it is

1873
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:54,560
good for a man not to touch a
woman.

1874
01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:57,200
Nevertheless, to avoid
fornication, let every man have

1875
01:49:57,200 --> 01:50:00,840
his own wife and let every woman
have her own husband.

1876
01:50:01,880 --> 01:50:04,160
So there you have it, the
objectors will say, And it does

1877
01:50:04,160 --> 01:50:07,640
seem convincing, doesn't it?
Let every man have his own wife.

1878
01:50:08,000 --> 01:50:10,840
Yet often things are not always
as they first appear.

1879
01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:14,600
It is true here, as this verse
actually supports plural

1880
01:50:14,960 --> 01:50:17,120
marriage.
Before we obtain an explanation,

1881
01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:20,000
let's first identify the actual
words in question that Paul

1882
01:50:20,000 --> 01:50:26,200
himself used in Greek.
Let every man have his own auto

1883
01:50:26,720 --> 01:50:32,280
wife and let every woman have
her own idios husband.

1884
01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:35,440
You know something very
interesting.

1885
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:38,480
Did you see that the two words
translated into our English

1886
01:50:38,480 --> 01:50:42,240
version as own the same English
word are actually two different

1887
01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:45,440
Greek words altogether.
The two words are how to and

1888
01:50:45,440 --> 01:50:50,200
idios. 1 is exclusive, the other
is corporate.

1889
01:50:50,960 --> 01:50:54,880
Really.
Yes, Sir Tom Shipley in his

1890
01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:58,240
outstanding work Man and Woman
in Biblical Law, explains why

1891
01:50:58,240 --> 01:51:02,000
use two different Greek words
here for own in the two clauses

1892
01:51:02,000 --> 01:51:04,240
of the same sentence.
And what is the significance?

1893
01:51:04,680 --> 01:51:08,120
Quite simply, the Greek word how
to, how to.

1894
01:51:08,120 --> 01:51:11,560
I don't know how to pronounce.
I don't speak Greek that

1895
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:15,880
signifies exclusive possession,
As for example, I speak of my

1896
01:51:15,920 --> 01:51:20,440
own body or my own soul.
A biblical example of the use of

1897
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:25,560
how to is where Paul admonishes
a man to eat his own bread.

1898
01:51:26,160 --> 01:51:28,440
The point being that we should
not be sharing the bread like we

1899
01:51:28,440 --> 01:51:34,880
don't eat people's the word.
The Greek word idios signifies

1900
01:51:34,880 --> 01:51:37,880
actual or potential corporate
possession.

1901
01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:40,440
A biblical example of which is
the passage which says that

1902
01:51:40,480 --> 01:51:44,200
Jesus returned to his own idios
country.

1903
01:51:45,160 --> 01:51:47,960
There were others who lived in
his own country because it was

1904
01:51:47,960 --> 01:51:52,240
also their own country.
Far from implying the

1905
01:51:52,360 --> 01:51:55,360
unlawfulness of polygamy, the
usage and signification of the

1906
01:51:55,360 --> 01:51:57,640
two different terms here for own
seems to have been employed

1907
01:51:57,640 --> 01:52:00,760
precisely because of an
awareness of the lawfulness of

1908
01:52:00,760 --> 01:52:02,720
polygamy.
Wow, far from.

1909
01:52:03,040 --> 01:52:06,280
Thinking in monogamous terms, it
seems quite clear that Paul

1910
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:11,400
spoke in polygamous terms for
the man but not the woman.

1911
01:52:12,040 --> 01:52:14,440
Wow.
Holy cow.

1912
01:52:14,440 --> 01:52:16,920
That changes everything about
that scripture.

1913
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:19,200
Because yeah, it's one that they
like to use to beat you over the

1914
01:52:19,200 --> 01:52:22,400
head with, right?
If you're if you're in favor of

1915
01:52:22,440 --> 01:52:27,520
of plural marriage, who?
So another guy, another biblical

1916
01:52:27,520 --> 01:52:30,880
scholar, Don Milton, adds First
Corinthians Chapter 7, verse 2

1917
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:33,320
is a clear example of where the
language of the Bible, in this

1918
01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:36,560
case Greek, acknowledges that a
man can have more than one life.

1919
01:52:38,400 --> 01:52:40,760
Had Paul wanted to push
monogamy, he would have used the

1920
01:52:40,760 --> 01:52:44,640
word idios for the husband and
not hotel.

1921
01:52:46,160 --> 01:52:48,200
This understanding of the
difference in limitations upon

1922
01:52:48,200 --> 01:52:50,560
women and men is important
because single Christian women

1923
01:52:50,560 --> 01:52:53,080
around the world are being
denied husbands because of the

1924
01:52:53,080 --> 01:52:55,560
false teaching that a man can
only have one wife.

1925
01:52:56,040 --> 01:52:58,520
The hardness of hearts in the
bowing down to the golden calf

1926
01:52:58,520 --> 01:53:02,480
of monogamy by married Christian
men is depriving 2/3 of the

1927
01:53:02,480 --> 01:53:04,400
women in the world of a godly
husband.

1928
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:08,680
Wow.
First Timothy, chapter 5, verse

1929
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:10,560
14.
I will therefore that the

1930
01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:14,880
younger widow, Mary bear
children guide the house.

1931
01:53:14,880 --> 01:53:17,240
Give none occasion to the
adversary to speak

1932
01:53:17,240 --> 01:53:19,640
reproachfully.
So widows should remarry.

1933
01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:23,120
James Wesley Stivers writes.
The Apostle Paul speaks to the

1934
01:53:23,120 --> 01:53:25,160
widows the most worthy of
charitable assistance.

1935
01:53:25,160 --> 01:53:28,400
He did not advocate nunneries or
houses for unwed mothers.

1936
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:31,600
He demanded marriage.
Like other biblical laws, no

1937
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:34,520
consideration or exception is
made for situations involving

1938
01:53:34,520 --> 01:53:36,840
married men.
What would happen to should a

1939
01:53:36,840 --> 01:53:39,480
church find itself with widows
but no single men?

1940
01:53:40,800 --> 01:53:43,680
Obedience to this command would
require polygamy.

1941
01:53:43,760 --> 01:53:47,320
We have here a New Testament and
application of the Levirate law.

1942
01:53:47,680 --> 01:53:50,000
Christian men are to treat
Christian women as sisters.

1943
01:53:50,000 --> 01:53:52,840
If they are widowed, then they
and their orphans should be

1944
01:53:52,840 --> 01:53:55,040
adopted and incorporated into a
family.

1945
01:53:55,520 --> 01:53:58,640
If they are lawfully divorced,
they are covenantily widowed and

1946
01:53:58,640 --> 01:54:01,440
should be treated the same as
say, the early fathers.

1947
01:54:02,120 --> 01:54:04,840
This is the work of pure
religion undefiled from James,

1948
01:54:04,840 --> 01:54:07,480
chapter one, verse 27.
Polygamy encourages this

1949
01:54:07,480 --> 01:54:09,960
practice.
Monogamy discourages it.

1950
01:54:11,600 --> 01:54:16,920
Wow, you know, so if I'm not
mistaken that that scripture in

1951
01:54:17,120 --> 01:54:18,760
and and correct me if I'm wrong
here.

1952
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:21,680
I want to make sure I'm
understanding in in first

1953
01:54:21,680 --> 01:54:26,680
Corinthians 7, one through 2,
maybe from the author and

1954
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:30,480
another author that he quotes
the the more correct translation

1955
01:54:30,480 --> 01:54:33,960
for that would be let every wife
have her own husband and every

1956
01:54:33,960 --> 01:54:36,720
man have his own wives.
Would that be correct?

1957
01:54:37,360 --> 01:54:39,400
That would be.
That would be a much more

1958
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:42,160
linguistically accurate
translation.

1959
01:54:42,800 --> 01:54:48,040
Man And there there we really
see a testament to to what

1960
01:54:48,040 --> 01:54:51,120
Joseph said when he said we
believe the Bible as long as it

1961
01:54:51,120 --> 01:54:57,160
is translated correctly.
Yes, Yep, exactly.

1962
01:54:58,880 --> 01:55:00,640
Wow.
All right, I'm going to see if I

1963
01:55:00,640 --> 01:55:03,360
can wrap up this section for
today.

1964
01:55:03,360 --> 01:55:06,680
I know we're coming up on time.
So on forbidding to marry Now

1965
01:55:06,680 --> 01:55:09,560
this is from first Timothy
chapter 4 verses one through 3.

1966
01:55:09,720 --> 01:55:12,720
Now the spirit speaks expressly
that in the latter times some

1967
01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:16,400
shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits

1968
01:55:16,440 --> 01:55:20,520
and doctrines of devils,
speaking lies and hypocrisy,

1969
01:55:20,720 --> 01:55:23,200
having their conscience seared
with a hot iron.

1970
01:55:23,880 --> 01:55:28,160
Forbidding to marry.
The unscriptural limiting of

1971
01:55:28,160 --> 01:55:30,720
marriage to monogamy actually
forbids the scriptural marriage

1972
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:33,320
of many Christian women.
According to Paul, this sad and

1973
01:55:33,760 --> 01:55:35,520
ungodly teaching is a doctrine
of devils.

1974
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:38,480
Shame on Christendom for their
arrogance and presumption to

1975
01:55:38,480 --> 01:55:42,160
condemn what God has ordained.
And I would add some branches of

1976
01:55:42,160 --> 01:55:45,680
Mormonism and for the tremendous
repercussions of their godless

1977
01:55:45,680 --> 01:55:48,360
teaching.
Appropriately, Samuel Chapman

1978
01:55:48,360 --> 01:55:51,120
shares these thoughts.
We ought not to be surprised,

1979
01:55:51,120 --> 01:55:53,640
then, if Christian women stumble
into fornication, adultery, and

1980
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:56,560
marriages with the ungodly.
Such stumbling is their own

1981
01:55:56,560 --> 01:55:59,640
responsibility, but it is also
the direct consequence of

1982
01:55:59,640 --> 01:56:01,880
unscripturally forbidding
religiony.

1983
01:56:02,800 --> 01:56:05,440
Hence, a Christian practicing
the Apostle Paul's teaching must

1984
01:56:05,440 --> 01:56:08,680
allow polygamy or live in danger
of causing other Christians to

1985
01:56:08,680 --> 01:56:14,320
stumble.
In Titus chapter 2, verses 3

1986
01:56:14,320 --> 01:56:18,640
through 5, there's a passage
that can be seen with kind of

1987
01:56:18,680 --> 01:56:21,960
renewed light when when the
divine plan of plural marriage

1988
01:56:21,960 --> 01:56:26,560
is embraced.
The age of women likewise, that

1989
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:29,720
they may teach the young women
to be sober, to love their

1990
01:56:29,720 --> 01:56:32,400
husbands, to love their
children, to be discreet, chaste

1991
01:56:32,400 --> 01:56:36,120
keepers at home, good, obedient
to their own husbands, that the

1992
01:56:36,120 --> 01:56:43,160
word of God be not blasphemed.
So in all honesty, when and

1993
01:56:43,160 --> 01:56:45,360
where is the apostles admonition
practiced?

1994
01:56:45,720 --> 01:56:48,360
It has, for all intents and
purposes, been completely

1995
01:56:48,360 --> 01:56:51,360
abandoned.
In what context could aged women

1996
01:56:51,400 --> 01:56:54,280
have the time and circumstances
to teach a younger woman to love

1997
01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:58,520
their husbands as at home?
The idea of the entire passage

1998
01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:01,440
is that training younger women
in domestic duties can one think

1999
01:57:01,440 --> 01:57:03,760
of a better environment than in
the daily living of our own

2000
01:57:03,760 --> 01:57:06,480
homes?
Of course, the word translated

2001
01:57:06,480 --> 01:57:10,080
as women in this passage is the
same word translated as wives.

2002
01:57:11,680 --> 01:57:14,040
Wow.
Read these words with this

2003
01:57:14,040 --> 01:57:16,920
translation.
The older wives teach the

2004
01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:18,840
younger wives to love their
husbands.

2005
01:57:19,400 --> 01:57:21,360
Now obviously this could be
fulfilled through various

2006
01:57:21,360 --> 01:57:23,880
circumstances, but when
scriptural plural marriage is

2007
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:26,920
taken into consideration here,
one could hardly think of a

2008
01:57:26,920 --> 01:57:30,600
better context.
Plural marriage clearly also

2009
01:57:30,600 --> 01:57:33,920
adds greater significance to the
older women teaching the younger

2010
01:57:33,920 --> 01:57:37,200
women to love their husbands.
Proverbs, 1822.

2011
01:57:37,200 --> 01:57:40,640
Whoso finds a wife, finds a good
thing, and obtains favor of the

2012
01:57:40,640 --> 01:57:42,960
Lord.
The principle of plural marriage

2013
01:57:42,960 --> 01:57:45,400
is just as firmly established in
the pages of the Greek

2014
01:57:45,400 --> 01:57:48,320
Scriptures as it is in the
Hebrew Old Testament.

2015
01:57:48,800 --> 01:57:51,920
Plural marriage has always
clearly been God honored.

2016
01:57:52,160 --> 01:57:54,880
Marriage is honorable in all
Hebrews 13, verse four.

2017
01:57:55,360 --> 01:57:57,600
In the New Testament, just as in
the Old Testament, marrying an

2018
01:57:57,600 --> 01:58:01,320
additional wife is marriage, and
marriage is honorable in all.

2019
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:04,000
It has been the purpose of this
chapter to demonstrate that

2020
01:58:04,000 --> 01:58:07,600
plural marriage is a scriptural
precedent of New Testament

2021
01:58:07,600 --> 01:58:10,760
times.
Man, they're they're going to

2022
01:58:10,760 --> 01:58:12,440
have to do we're.
Going to have to do a Part 2

2023
01:58:12,440 --> 01:58:15,400
Dave because the next chapter is
the religious systems

2024
01:58:15,400 --> 01:58:17,000
destruction of the biblical
family.

2025
01:58:17,200 --> 01:58:18,680
Dude, that's going to be
awesome.

2026
01:58:18,680 --> 01:58:21,640
Let's let's set that up for next
week and we'll we'll get that

2027
01:58:21,640 --> 01:58:22,600
one out next week.
You.

2028
01:58:23,560 --> 01:58:25,480
Bet.
Dude, I'll tell you what one

2029
01:58:25,480 --> 01:58:29,560
last thing I want to wrap up
with here where it talks about

2030
01:58:30,040 --> 01:58:35,040
there in the book about that
system kind of setting the table

2031
01:58:35,160 --> 01:58:37,080
for fornication and that sort of
thing.

2032
01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:39,880
That's a damning statement,
right?

2033
01:58:39,880 --> 01:58:44,000
To religious organizations that
kind of forbid plural marriage,

2034
01:58:44,160 --> 01:58:46,040
right?
Because you may not have

2035
01:58:46,040 --> 01:58:48,440
committed the act and the ACT
ultimately falls on the

2036
01:58:48,440 --> 01:58:50,680
individual, but you certainly
helped set the table.

2037
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:54,160
And that's, that's, that's
fascinating stuff.

2038
01:58:54,640 --> 01:58:56,120
Dude.
I know you're hard up against a

2039
01:58:56,120 --> 01:58:57,920
break.
So what we'll do is we'll pick

2040
01:58:57,920 --> 01:59:00,720
this up next week.
Great stuff as always.

2041
01:59:00,720 --> 01:59:02,080
And I I look forward to seeing
you.

2042
01:59:02,800 --> 01:59:03,600
Awesome.
Thanks, Dave.

2043
01:59:03,840 --> 01:59:04,280
Talk to you.
Soon.

2044
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:36,200
Bye everybody.
The.