Episode #157: The Testimonies Of Women From The Early Restoration W/Kimberly Watson Smith

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Right now, the plural marriage
deniers are coming out in full

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force to try to damage the
testimony of the truth and as

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many people as they can.
Now, one of the tactics that

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they're used is that they will
say that the early sisters that

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practice the principle of
celestial plural marriage were

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all oppressed, weak, silent
women who would never have

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chosen a marriage system such as
that man.

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If only we had access to those
early sisters thoughts and

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feelings.
Oh wait, we do.

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Today on the podcast, Kimberly
Watson Smith joins me again

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where we read those early
sisters words in context and let

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those sisters from church
history speak for themselves

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through our conversation.
What we find is that these women

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left us all in the restoration
of proud heritage of faith that

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should inspire, uplift, and
strengthen our testimonies, not

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only of the principle of
celestial plural marriage, but

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also the whole of the teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

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Get ready for an epic
conversation on this episode of

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today.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Kimberly, what's going on?

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Hey, Dave, how are you?
I'm good it I'll tell you what I

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was telling you before this and
and I really mean it.

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I love these conversations we
have because every time we have

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them, I walk away with two
things.

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One, having my mind blown just
by the stuff, you know, and then

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going I need to study more
because she can absolutely go

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circles around me.
So it's just a it's always a

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yawn.
It really is.

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Well, thank you.
I appreciate that.

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I'm excited to be on.
I have, I've just felt this like

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a sense of urgency just to
basically just share what I've

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learned, especially about the
women of the restoration, just

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because I feel like their voices
are being silenced and they're

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being misrepresented and in many
cases they're being slandered

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and defamed.
And I, and I just, it, it's kind

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of heartbreaking to me as a
woman, especially as I've, you

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know, I, I look to the women of
the restoration to they're as

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role models essentially.
So just to, I mean, I look to

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them to know what it means to be
a woman of the covenant, what it

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means to be a woman of faith
and, and learning about their

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lives and who they are just as
individuals has just really

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strengthened my faith.
And, and just to see that, that

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this, there's this conversation
going on out there about the

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historical practice of our
marriage.

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And then everybody wants to talk
about women, but they're not

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actually listening to what they
ever said, if that makes sense.

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You know, I was thinking about
this today.

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This, this very thing.
It wasn't too long ago that we

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went through the Me too
movement, right?

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And you remember what one of the
big rallying cries was for that

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which was believe all women,
right?

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And now we have in this case
first hand, historical data on

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on what these early pioneer
women had to say on certain

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topics, on plural marriage being
one of them.

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But for whatever reason, you
can't believe those women,

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right?
You're supposed to believe

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everybody else, but you can't
believe those women because it

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doesn't fit the narrative,
right?

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And I find that very fascinating
that, you know, when, when when

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I talk about the left, I'm not
talking just about the political

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left.
There is a religious left as

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well, right?
And it's especially found its

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way into Mormonism of all
branches.

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It's not unique to the LDS
Church.

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And and so there's this idea of
it.

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You got to believe all women
unless what that woman is saying

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does not fit the narrative that
the left wants to push in this

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instant.
Does that kind of make sense?

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Exactly.
It's like the women of faith.

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We don't want to believe those
women, but any woman who stands

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against purity, holiness,
religion, we, we don't want to

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believe those women.
We want to shun them.

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And in essence that they, you
know, they, they don't just

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silence them, but they, it, it's
just a fascinating phenomenon.

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How it's it, you know how they
say that, you know, women in

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religion, they're, you know,
they're, what's the word?

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I can't think of the word for
some reason.

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Subservient.
Yeah, subservient or you know,

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they don't have.
You know, they don't, they can't

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speak for themselves.
And so then you have these women

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of faith who actually did speak
for themselves.

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And we then say, no, we can't
listen to what they say.

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So oppression, that's the word I
was looking for.

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So essentially we, we call women
of religion, we call them

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oppressed, right?
And then, and but yet we're now

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oppressing these women by not
letting them speak.

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Right, No, it's, it's an
interesting paradox for sure.

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And and quite frankly, a little
hypocritical.

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So this this will be great to
get into because it's always

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good when you can get into
primary voices, right.

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When, when I nerded out, you
know, better part of 20 years

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ago now on the, the founders
and, and the, the, the count

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constitution, I was like, I want
to know what those guys said.

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I want to see the argument,
right?

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That led me to Madison's notes,
that led me to other things.

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Because so often we tend to look
at history and even the best of

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us.
I think presentism always creeps

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in a little bit, right?
I think it's really hard to

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always filter that out.
And so when you can get back to

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those primary voices and and in
the first person hear about what

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they had to say, I think it's
enlightening it it shows what

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they were thinking and not so
much what we think about or

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think they must have been
thinking about.

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That was a word salad.
Holy cow.

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So yeah.
Right.

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And so I just want to just
preface before we get into it.

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So again, this, this podcast or
this discussion is going to be

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about the women, especially
those that live the plural

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marriage covenant and I but
before we get into talking

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about, you know, their
statements or what they said, I,

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I just want your listeners to
know that that these women, they

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make, they're so much more than
just plural marriage.

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They are, they're women of
faith.

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They're women of like, they're
of honor, of nobility.

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They were deeply religious.
They were scriptorians.

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They knew the Bible.
They had a had an understanding

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of the ancient covenants.
They understood, they pretty

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much understood like Hebrew, the
Hebrew life, they were educated

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on the Bible.
They understood rituals.

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These are just incredible women.
So they are more than just for

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marriage.
And while we we will talk about

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that and we will talk about
their experiences with it and

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their testimonies, I just want
your listeners to know that

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these are women are more than
just for wives.

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Yep, Yep, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, we, you look at some of

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the stuff that that Eliza R Snow
wrote.

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I mean, she would have rivaled
any man of the day in, in her

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ability to put together words,
you know, poems, hymns,

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dissertations.
I mean, you stack her up against

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anybody and she she can hang
with them.

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And, and a lot of those women
were, were very much that same

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way.
Yes.

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So these these were women that
actually did have the gift of

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prophecy and they they enjoyed
gifts of the Spirit that I think

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that we think don't exist
anymore.

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And to such a degree that, you
know, they had, they had power.

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And, and we'll get into that as
we, we get, we get into some of

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these women.
So I don't want to like give it

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away all upfront.
But I also did want to preface

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because I am a woman and I, I
talk to a lot of women,

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especially about the historical
practice of her marriage.

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And I just want women to know,
especially those listening, that

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as a woman, I, I have empathy
for those that do struggle to

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understand this principle or to
understand why it was

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introduced.
And I especially have empathy

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for women who just have this
paralyzing fear of that, you

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know, their their future or
their eternity is going to be

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for marriage and that they will
have no say in the matter.

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And I just want them to know
first of all, that that that

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isn't the gospel of Jesus
Christ.

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That isn't the character of God.
He doesn't force anybody into

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relationships they don't want to
be in.

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And So what I want them to take
away from this hopefully is just

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to understand that that these
women, they chose these

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relationships and they acted
with on their full agency and

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with knowledge.
They had actual knowledge of

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this practice.
Why God was asking them to enter

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into this in into this order.
And they did so with, like I

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said, complete understanding and
with a desire to be obedient to

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what God had had required of
them.

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Awesome.
And so again, when I, I, I

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talked to a lot of women, for
example, I was at the Book of

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Mormon Evidence Conference about
a week ago and this woman came

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up to me and she was just
complete fear in her eyes.

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It was, I was trying to talk to
her about plumage that that was

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her big issue.
She wanted to understand it, but

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she just couldn't even, I
couldn't even get a word out.

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And she was just, there was just
this fear that took over.

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And I and I was trying to
explain to her that does not

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come from the Lord.
So where is this fear coming

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from?
The Joseph Smith Foundation has

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a model that says facts fortify
faith.

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And so I truly believe that this
fear that women have come

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because they are given wrong
information.

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And so I really do believe it's
true that facts really do

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fortify faith.
In fact, the Prophet Joseph

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Smith said, he said that
knowledge is power.

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And he, he who has the greatest
knowledge has the greatest

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power.
And then he went on to say, a

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man is saved no faster than he
gets knowledge.

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For if he does not get
knowledge, he will be brought

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into captivity by some evil
power.

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And I really truly have seen.
And so I, I just, I can stand as

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a witness of this.
I have seen those who lack

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understanding and who lack
knowledge and, and no further

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their own that they really are,
they are held captive by the

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devil, especially over this
principle.

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And, and I've seen it time and
time again with these women and

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men too.
And, and so I've watched as this

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anti polygamy movement has, has,
has grown, right.

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I've watched it grow over the
last four years like

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exponentially.
And those in this anti polygamy

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movement, they are in bondage.
That is the only way I can

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describe it.
I've they, they truly think that

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by believing Joseph Smith wasn't
a polygamist that they they have

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been set free.
I've seen so many of them say

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I'm the truth has set me free.
I no longer believe Joseph Smith

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was a polygamist, but they're
not really free.

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They are now in bondage to this
new ideology, right?

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This new version of history.
And it's become kind of like

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their identity in a way, if I
could say that.

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00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,400
And and so with this new
identity, they are now

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deconstructing their faith.
They were rejecting their temple

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covenants and they're rejecting
almost every other teaching, a

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principle that was taught by the
Prophet Joseph Smith.

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Well, yeah, and, and this idea
of, of being free, right?

226
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Like I once heard someone say,
the truth will set you free, but

227
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it's going to make you miserable
first, right?

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00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,840
And certainly I can attest to
that as a guy who came into

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Mormonism cold, right?
I didn't have anybody in my

230
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,960
inner circle that was Mormon.
My family certainly certainly

231
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:51,000
wasn't Mormon, but there was a
moment at which I had to take a

232
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,480
look in the mirror and go, I
might be kind of a dirtbag,

233
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,400
right?
And then make those changes.

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And that's painful.
And that made me miserable.

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First, right now, the truth will
set you free, but you have to

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contend with it, right?
And that's one of the things

237
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I've said is that you have to
wrestle with this a little bit,

238
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but you're not really free if
you simply give up an ideology

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that you struggled with that has
its basis in, in historical fact

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and evidence and truth.
And then you go to another

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00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:31,360
narrative that is liberating or,
or seems liberating or made him

242
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,720
feel liberating for a while.
But at the end of the day,

243
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,360
you're still trading in that,
that bondage, right?

244
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,480
You're, you're trading in the,
the bondage of fear in this

245
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,400
case, right?
I, I, I and 'cause I sympathize

246
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,280
with this too.
And, and I'm a guy who lives the

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principle, but I've seen it
cripple people and, and

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00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,840
especially our sisters with,
with absolute fear.

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So they trade in that fear that,
that bondage of fear for a

250
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,160
bondage of a false narrative and
a lie is still bondage.

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00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,760
And so you have to be able to be
free, but you have to be free

252
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,200
through the truth or else it's
it's a facade of not being in

253
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,680
bondage.
Yeah, that's that's correct.

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00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:20,000
And so, like I said, I've I've
just watched this it it's just

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00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,200
taking over and it consumes
people to the point where, like

256
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,200
I said, this anti polygamy
narrative becomes our identity

257
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,240
and and they literally cannot
function unless they're

258
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,400
constantly like I, I sometimes
use the phrase that they just,

259
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,800
they constantly have to beat you
over the head with it, right.

260
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:43,840
It's it's brought up in you just
any like LES Facebook group

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00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,200
there someone always, no matter
what the conversation is that

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00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,400
you see that you have this anti
polygamist matter woman.

263
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,000
They'll come in and they have to
turn the conversation around to

264
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,720
be about Joseph didn't practice
polygamy and it right.

265
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,920
They just turn it.
It's just the craziest thing.

266
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,200
So interesting to watch.
And it's, it's actually kind of

267
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,680
frustrating 'cause you're like,
can we please talk about

268
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,200
something other than, you know,
plural marriage?

269
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,200
And, and it's so it is.
It just becomes this identity

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00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,440
and it's who they are.
They talk about nothing else

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00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,640
about then Joseph Smith wasn't a
polygamist.

272
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,200
And I just have to prove it to
the world.

273
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,040
And again, I feel like they are
in bondage to Satan.

274
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,040
They've pretty much now got
their marching orders from the

275
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,800
adversary because they they've
allowed the evil 1 to take over,

276
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,440
right?
And Joseph Smith said if you

277
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,920
reject any principle that's
revealed from heaven, the devil

278
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,440
takes power.
Because they're not just

279
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,520
rejecting this idea for
marriage.

280
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,000
It what comes with it.
Again, it's, they're rejecting

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00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,080
temple ordinances, temple
covenants, they're rejecting

282
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,520
other revelations to the Prophet
Joseph Smith.

283
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,480
They're, they're deconstructing
every part of Mormonism that

284
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,600
they don't like.
So I see that there's a real

285
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,280
danger in this, a spiritual
danger.

286
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:08,600
And, and so I, I just hope once
again that if they just by just,

287
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:13,920
you know, getting to know the
women a little bit, those that

288
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,160
entered into this practice, that
I, I'm hoping it can alleviate

289
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,000
some of the, those fears that
women have and, and they can

290
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,280
actually be proud of the
heritage that they, they come

291
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,880
from.
Absolutely, absolutely.

292
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,480
You did bring up an an
interesting point because I've

293
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,400
noticed the same thing.
It's like I've always said, if

294
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:44,240
you have to come and tear down
somebody else's creed or where

295
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,120
they worship or any of those
other things, that tells me one

296
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:53,200
thing that you're not real
secure in your own beliefs, but

297
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,800
rather you're, you're, you have
to tear down the others for it

298
00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,640
to work, right.
And there's also something I've

299
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,680
noticed that's really
fascinating, which is I, I think

300
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,920
on a subconscious level, those
behind this movement understand

301
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,480
it cannot work unless it has a
massive amount of buy in from a

302
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,320
lot of people, right?
Because I, I think

303
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,120
subconsciously there's a thought
of if we say it long enough and

304
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:26,040
we say it loud enough, the facts
won't matter because people will

305
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,440
just accept it.
And so that's, that's been the

306
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,320
other insidious part of this
that I've noticed is that it's

307
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,680
not enough for somebody just to
believe this or a group of

308
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,480
people to believe this.
They understand there has to be

309
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,160
massive buy in.
And and likewise, it's

310
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:46,520
imperative that for them that
they get as many people wrapped

311
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,880
up into this as they can.
Yeah, that's correct.

312
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,120
And it's interesting because I
I've watched Jacob Hanson with

313
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,360
thoughtful faith, if you're
familiar with him at all.

314
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,440
I am Yep, and.
He's trying to take on the, the,

315
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,280
you know, this anti polygamy
movement.

316
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,880
And I watched him go into
certain groups of the, you know,

317
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,080
the leaders in this movement and
he just asks historical

318
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,920
questions.
What about the this?

319
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:15,560
And I just love reading the
comments.

320
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,080
Well, I don't love it.
It's it's kind of entertaining

321
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,120
and it's kind of sad at the same
time.

322
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,160
You just watch them and all they
can do is Heckle.

323
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,440
Whenever he has, he brings up a
really good historical point.

324
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,920
What about this source?
Or why did this person say this?

325
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,520
It's then they just begin with
the heckling and they don't ever

326
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,080
answer the question.
They don't they don't offer like

327
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,120
a rational explanation.
If they offer any explanation at

328
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:45,400
all, it's usually, oh, they were
just toeing the line or oh, this

329
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,040
was part of the rewriting of
history, or these were, you

330
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,800
know, Brigham, you know, part of
Brigham Young's cabal or, you

331
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,240
know, just and you're just like,
this is not even logical.

332
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,560
It's not rational.
There's no reason behind it.

333
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,960
This isn't faith promoting.
Where is Christ in all of this?

334
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:11,440
It's, it's said, insidious.
Yeah, Yep, it is so all right.

335
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,600
Awesome.
So let's get into it.

336
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,000
So I just had to get that, you
know?

337
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,880
No, you're good now do you?
Our.

338
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,000
Chest do you need to share any
slides or anything like that?

339
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,440
I I didn't.
I was under the impression that

340
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,560
this was just like a voice
recording, so I didn't.

341
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,080
OK, no, that's that's just fine.
You're just fine.

342
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,880
I mean, I, I would have loved to
have slides.

343
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,520
I think that they're.
No, you're good.

344
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,200
You're good.
What it whatever works well.

345
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,800
I'm I'm flexible.
So I before I begin, because so

346
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,120
again, we're going to be talking
about the women, right?

347
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,520
And so like, and it's not just
women saying, yes, I was married

348
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,840
to the Prophet Joseph Smith.
We're going to be talking about

349
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,520
what these women knew about the
historical practice of her

350
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,920
marriage.
So I just want to lay a little

351
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,000
bit of groundwork that I think
is going to be important as we

352
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,960
get into these women's
testimonies.

353
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:11,040
So for so in order to lay the
groundwork right, first we're

354
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,400
going to go back to Nauvoo.
Joseph Smith is revealing in

355
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,040
Nauvoo for the first time, the
concept of eternal marriage.

356
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,560
So for us, you know, the church
has been established for over

357
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:28,920
200 years.
We've, you know, we, we grew up

358
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,200
understanding about eternal
marriage, but this was a new

359
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:38,480
concept for the first time
learning about any kind of, you

360
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,240
know, marriage for eternity,
families for eternity.

361
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:48,560
So anyway, does that make sense?
Yep, it absolutely does.

362
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,080
So just a new concept.
So I just want so just we we

363
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,720
need to go back and and kind of
put ourselves in their shoes for

364
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,680
a little bit.
I guess is is that they're

365
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,920
learning for the first time.
Just this concept of not only is

366
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:08,640
marriage ordained of God, but it
is, it's an it's eternal.

367
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,160
Right.
So revelation given to the

368
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,720
Prophet Joseph Smith taught that
marriage was ordained of God

369
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,120
unto man, and under the law of
God that relationship was to

370
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,560
extend into eternity without
end.

371
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,480
So in other words, those who are
married by the power and

372
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,120
authority of the priesthood in
this life continue without

373
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,760
committing, continue without
committing, the sin against the

374
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,320
Holy Ghost will continue to
increase and have children in

375
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,200
the celestial glory.
So that's what they was being

376
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,520
revealed to them for the first
time.

377
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,760
Right.
So again, we have the advantage

378
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:53,360
of being immersed in this
understanding as we were born in

379
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:57,520
this covenant and we inherited
this faith from our fathers, so

380
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,840
we understand this concept, but
for them this was something that

381
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,680
was new.
Yeah, and, and in some ways it

382
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,320
was absolutely revolutionary
cause most, most Christian

383
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,800
creeds of the time are operating
under the assumption that what

384
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,960
Christ said in the New Testament
about neither being married nor

385
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,080
given in marriage after the
resurrection was, was the

386
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,040
predominant thought.
So this is radical revolutionary

387
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,280
stuff, and I don't think that
could be overstated as well.

388
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,040
Yeah, and that that again, you
said it perfectly.

389
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,400
This was radical, right?
This was new.

390
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,480
This was they had to wrap their
minds around it.

391
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,000
And so I I just want us.
And even even with our

392
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,960
understanding that marriage is
eternal and that the highest

393
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,040
ordinance in the temple is a man
and a woman are still together

394
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,480
as husband and wife.
Even with that understanding, I

395
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,000
have noticed that even as Saints
we are still very narrow minded.

396
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,000
And I want to bring up this
point because I even feel like

397
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,560
before we can get into these
women's testimonies, we have to

398
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,000
understand something that I
think is very important.

399
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:09,120
So I hear so many people say
with even with all of the

400
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:13,600
evidence, even with I can tell
them Eliza Arsenal said this,

401
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:16,880
right?
She testified of her primary to

402
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,720
Joseph Smith and I still get,
but Joseph Smith didn't have any

403
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:27,760
kids with anybody but Emma.
And so and I'm like, OK, here we

404
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,720
go into this.
How are we as Latter Day Saints

405
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,440
with our understanding that
marriage is eternal?

406
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,560
How do we come back with he
didn't have any kids with anyone

407
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,120
but Emma.
So therefore he he was not

408
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:44,240
married with anyone with Emma
because what is eternal

409
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,160
marriage?
What what was Joseph his saying?

410
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,000
He said that those that are
married by the power and

411
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:57,440
authority of the priesthood in
this life, they will continue in

412
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,160
the next life to increase and
have children in celestial

413
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:07,280
glory.
So Joseph Smith being sealed to

414
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:15,200
Emma and to all of his other
poor wives, those relationships

415
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,840
will continue into eternity.
And what will they produce in

416
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,120
eternity?
Children.

417
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,560
Exactly right.
And so for me, I'm, I'm sitting

418
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,040
there going, OK, wait a minute.
Joseph Smith is in Nauvoo in

419
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,920
1841, takes his first poor wife
in Nauvoo in 1841.

420
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:43,120
He's killed three years later.
When did you in, in, in, in in

421
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:46,880
those three years?
He's essentially he can't live

422
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,560
with any of the women.
Nope.

423
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,600
When exactly did you expect him
to be having children with these

424
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,160
women?
Right.

425
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,600
And I'm not saying that there
was no consummations of

426
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,600
marriages because we know that
there were, because women did

427
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,760
testify.
And I'm not saying there were no

428
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,000
children.
I'm just saying that this idea,

429
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,840
if you, you this idea that
you're so narrow minded thinking

430
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,200
he didn't have, he didn't
produce any seed that we know of

431
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:19,120
with anyone but Emma.
Therefore he couldn't have been

432
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:23,320
married.
I just think I, I just want to

433
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,680
just kind of squash that right
now because that is a lack of

434
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,160
understanding of what eternal
marriage is.

435
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,320
The purpose of it is that your
life with your spouse continues

436
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:41,280
into the eternity and you will
increase and have children in

437
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,960
celestial glory.
Yep.

438
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,440
I think it's important to note
here too, is that so often we

439
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,400
make this assumption that Joseph
has everything figured out at

440
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:58,960
the exact moment that the, that
the revelation is given, right?

441
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,240
And that's not the, the, the
historical.

442
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,600
Sometimes it is, but more times
than not, that's not what the

443
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,680
historical evidence points to.
It points to a revelation will

444
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,240
come Joseph, just like we all
do, will have more questions and

445
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,720
go back and there's a refinement
of those revelations, right?

446
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,640
More revelation is giving
clarification is had and those

447
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,080
things are done.
So there's a lot of those

448
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,640
marriages that I wonder.
I've, I've wondered personally,

449
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,280
and this is just, you know, the
book of Dave Page 1.

450
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,960
So huge grain of salt here.
It he's figuring this out in

451
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,160
real time, right?
And now to, to make that even

452
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:42,040
more complex, he's figuring it
out at the height of Victorian

453
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,920
sensibilities, right?
And this is going to upset the

454
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,800
apple cart in all of of
Christendom.

455
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,080
The stuff he's talking about is
absolutely revolutionary within

456
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,520
Christian thought.
And so there there may be a

457
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,400
little hesitancy for Joseph to
even I'm just throwing this out,

458
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,200
there may be some hesitancy on
even consummating some of those

459
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,200
marriages up front, right 'cause
Joseph has to understand, oh,

460
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,400
this is this has got trouble
written all over it.

461
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,000
Are Are you ready to for me to
blow your mind?

462
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,920
Yes, yes, OK.
So you said, OK, so you said,

463
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,120
and I think you're partially
right where you said that he's

464
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:32,200
figuring this out.
So and I and obviously how how

465
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,840
to live this revelation in a
telestial fallen world where

466
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:42,400
you're being hunted by, you
know, anti Mormon mobs,

467
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,440
dissenters.
I I think is, is that was the

468
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,080
challenge.
But let me just blame your mind

469
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,040
for a minute.
Did you actually know that when

470
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,840
Joseph Smith first received the
revelation on poor marriage, the

471
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,320
Lord actually revealed to him
the women he was supposed to

472
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:03,360
enter into that practice with?
No, but it wouldn't surprise me

473
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,680
either.
But yeah, my OK, let me get some

474
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,840
duct tape 'cause I'm gonna have
to like that's actually.

475
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,800
What I want to talk about this
is this is going to be kind of

476
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,720
the heart of this, of this
discussion because again, we are

477
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,640
Joseph Smith is revealing for
the first time this concept of

478
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,840
eternal marriage.
So like I said before, we have

479
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,360
even with our understanding of
of eternal marriage or you know,

480
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,640
the marriage is beyond this
life, we still have a very

481
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,680
narrow minded view of eternity.
What is eternity?

482
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,000
Eternity has no beginning and it
has no end.

483
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,120
Right.
So we, we have this in our mind

484
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,320
that OK, from this, this moment
going forward, eternity is going

485
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,200
to begin.
Joseph Smith is revealing

486
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,480
eternal marriage for the first
time.

487
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,760
So therefore, I'm gonna be
sealed and from here on out,

488
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,280
eternal, eternally, I'll be
married to this person.

489
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,840
But what Joseph Smith was
actually revealing is that these

490
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,320
relationships existed before
this life.

491
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,160
OK.
I see where you're going.

492
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,400
OK.
And, and I just want to point

493
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:20,440
out, so, so let's just start
with the first pro I've Mary

494
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,640
Elizabeth Rollins Lightner.
And This is why I think

495
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,200
listening to the women is
important because if you had if

496
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,480
we had listened to what Mary
Elizabeth Rollins Lightner said,

497
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:36,040
we would have known that Joseph
Smith knew who his wives were

498
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,200
before coming to this life.
Because she was actually the

499
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,520
first woman Joseph command was
commanded by God to take as a

500
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,560
plural wife.
He actually was commanded in

501
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:52,240
1834 to God had commanded him in
1834.

502
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,600
She is one of the women you are
to enter into this practice

503
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,440
with.
And so, but he had gotten afraid

504
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,640
at that time again, he's still
trying to figure out how am I

505
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,360
supposed to approach this
Puritan Victorian woman that she

506
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,520
needs to be a wife, right?
And so he's figuring out how to

507
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,000
approach her.
So he gets afraid.

508
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,920
And in 1834, he doesn't do it
right.

509
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,560
He doesn't follow the command.
And the next time he sees

510
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,080
Elizabeth Rollins Leitner, she's
married to Adam Leitner.

511
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,400
And so in his mind, he's
thinking, OK, then I guess I

512
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:32,840
don't have to do it.
There's, you know, there's

513
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,600
nothing I can do now.
And but God is saying, no, you

514
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,920
still have to because so let's
listen to what she her, her

515
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,120
version of the story, right?
Her testimony.

516
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,160
So like I said, Mary Elizabeth
Rollins Leitner was married to

517
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,080
Adam Leitner when Joseph Smith
approached her to become his

518
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:56,720
plural wife.
And in it so in 1834.

519
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,880
So this is Mary Elizabeth
Rollins Leitner's what she wrote

520
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,680
about this experience.
So again, we're listening to the

521
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,840
women.
She said In 1834, Joseph Smith

522
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,720
was commanded to take me for a
wife.

523
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,640
I was 1000 miles from him and he
got afraid.

524
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,640
The Angel came to him three
times, the last time with a

525
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,600
drawn sword and threatened his
life.

526
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,320
Joseph made known to me that God
had commanded him in July of

527
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,440
1834 to take me for a wife, but
he had not dared to make it

528
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,280
known to me, for when he
received the revelation I was in

529
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,160
Missouri, and when he did see me
I was married.

530
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,360
But he was again commanded to
fulfill the first revelation or

531
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,960
suffer condemnation, for I was
created for him before the

532
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,240
foundation of the earth was
laid.

533
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,200
So he's obviously related,
related this to her and then

534
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,760
she's received her own testimony
of it this, this union that

535
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,680
stretches back.
Back, she says I was created for

536
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,760
him before the foundation.
That's an interesting way of

537
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:10,440
putting it.
Yep, and and so this is what

538
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,920
she's telling.
So have you ever wondered then

539
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,639
we what did, what was Joseph
Smith telling these women?

540
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:21,040
What, what was that like?
Well, again you go to the women

541
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,000
'cause they they will tell you.
Right.

542
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,800
And, and, and so again, I just
want to, the reason why I want

543
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,159
to read these testimonies is
because they do teach us about

544
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,440
eternity.
They, they do reveal to us the

545
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:42,120
celestial family organization as
it, it was organized before the

546
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,520
foundation of the world.
We sometimes forget that Joseph

547
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,600
Smith is a restorer of all
things.

548
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,600
He's not just restoring the
gospel.

549
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,480
He's not just restoring a
church.

550
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,720
He is restoring this, a
celestial family organization as

551
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:04,120
it existed before this life.
Right.

552
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:06,440
Because that's what eternal
marriage is, right?

553
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:11,680
It's it's a celestial order.
It's a celestial family order.

554
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,040
Yep.
OK so she goes on and at first

555
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:20,160
she says I did not believe him.
If God told him so, why did he

556
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,720
not come and tell me?
The Angel told him that I should

557
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:27,440
have a witness.
And an Angel came to me.

558
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,800
It went through me like
lightning.

559
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,080
I was afraid.
Joseph said he came with more

560
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,440
revelation and knowledge than
Joseph ever dare reveal.

561
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,200
And then he said Joseph.
Then she said, Joseph said I was

562
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,840
his before I came here.
And he said all the devils in

563
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,040
hell should never get me from
him.

564
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,280
Wow.
So, Elizabeth Rowans Lightner,

565
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:57,680
she has an experience where an
immortal being comes to her and

566
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,520
gives her more revelation and
knowledge than Joseph Smith ever

567
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,280
dared reveal to anybody.
True.

568
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:13,480
So again, when we talked about
these women and what I I very

569
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,000
much dislike is that in all the
conversations with the women,

570
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:26,480
there's a lot of inferring, oh,
the women, they some of them it

571
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,840
depend hang on who you're
talking with, the anti

572
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,280
polygamists.
They'll just say these women

573
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,160
flat out lied.
OK, that's what they say.

574
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,680
Then you have just even even
like historians or scholars

575
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,400
that, you know, say the
historical record is plain that

576
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,480
he entered into her marriage.
But when you ask him about the

577
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,760
women, they'll say they, they
kind of also downplay that the

578
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,000
women.
And I've heard a lot of, you

579
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,400
know, historians and scholars
say, why would the, you know,

580
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,880
why would the women enter into
this, into this, into this

581
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,240
practice?
And it's, oh, they, you know,

582
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,680
they didn't know any better or
they, they were just doing it on

583
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,200
faith or they just, you know,
following their leaders, you

584
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,960
know, and I'm like, no, they had
knowledge.

585
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,040
They had more knowledge
concerning this practice than

586
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,440
Joseph ever dared reveal to
anybody.

587
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,080
And in fact, Joseph Smith said
that when one the Section 132

588
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,840
was being copied, he said that
that was only but a portion of

589
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,800
the revelation that he received.
Wow.

590
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:38,840
So we don't even have everything
that Joseph Smith had revealed,

591
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:41,600
that the Lord had revealed to
Joseph Smith.

592
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:47,200
But when you read the women's
testimony, that other portion

593
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:56,000
was revealed to them either by
God, by angels, by visions, and

594
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,480
I, I, it just blows my mind.
So when when we read these

595
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,280
testimonies, it's again, we're
learning something about the

596
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,000
premortal life.
We are learning that a marriage

597
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,840
extended before we came here,
and is that not a principle of

598
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,920
the gospel we learned?
The absolutely.

599
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,280
Yeah, We learned in the Doctrine
Covenants that the same

600
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,560
sociality that exists here will
exist there.

601
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,920
Well, if it if it exists here,
didn't exist before.

602
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,800
It has to it, it has to by
nature.

603
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,800
So let me ask you this, do any
of the women that we'll talk

604
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,360
about tonight and and we don't
need to skip to it.

605
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,400
I'm just curious, do they ever
tip their hand into some of that

606
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,960
knowledge that's not in 132?
Well, right.

607
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,640
Like I feel like, again, I feel
like right here that Mary did

608
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,040
And and yeah, we'll talk about
that as we go.

609
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,960
That's why I'm saying you go to
the women and, and, and like I

610
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,640
said, they, the women for me are
more than just plural wives.

611
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,480
I started studying the women
just because I wanted a role

612
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,920
model.
I want, like I, I said at the

613
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,480
beginning, I wanted to know what
it means to be a woman of faith.

614
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,320
But in, in reading these women
and their life's history and

615
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,800
their life's story, I gained an
understanding of what our

616
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,320
marriage is, why God commanded
it.

617
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,120
And that's, that's how I gained
my testimony of it.

618
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,880
That's why I defend it so
ardently.

619
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:32,240
I mean, I'm a the church and you
know, we don't live for

620
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,360
marriage.
And but I defend ardently

621
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,440
because I know that these women
were commanded by God, and I

622
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:45,600
know that they entered into that
practice with, like I said, a

623
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,760
full knowledge and understanding
of what they were doing and why.

624
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,440
Right, right now that.
That makes perfect sense in it.

625
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,640
Look, we'll talk about it later,
but it's that kind of knowledge,

626
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,120
and I won't speak for you.
I'll ask you about later, but

627
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,720
it's got to help to clean up
some of the fear that surrounds

628
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:05,800
it.
So yeah.

629
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,640
Right.
And so she goes on and she says,

630
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,160
so she said I was not going to
be sealed to Joseph Smith until

631
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,200
I had a witness for myself.
And so she describes and she

632
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:22,000
says, so I told Joseph Smith I
would never be sealed to him

633
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,120
until I had a witness.
Said he, you have a witness, I

634
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,640
made it.
And he said, you shall have a

635
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,520
witness.
So promising her, you know, if

636
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,920
if you want your witness, you
will have one.

637
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,560
And so she said, I made it a
subject of prayer.

638
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,560
And I worried about it because I
did not dare speak to a living

639
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,720
being.
I went out and got between three

640
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:44,800
haystacks where no one could see
me.

641
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,160
As I knelt down, I thought, why
not pray as Moses did.

642
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,320
He prayed with his hands raised.
When his hands were raised,

643
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,320
Israel was victorious, but when
they were not raised, the

644
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,880
Philistines were victorious.
I lifted my hands and I have and

645
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,360
I have heard Joseph say that
angels cover their faces.

646
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,280
I knelt down in it.
If ever a poor mortal prayed, I

647
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,400
did.
And so she prayed right, and she

648
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,800
receives her witness.
She has an immortal being

649
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,080
basically come to her and like
she said, gave her more

650
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,200
knowledge than Joseph Smith ever
dare reveal.

651
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,040
Wow.
And I, and I think some of this

652
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,800
knowledge is sacred.
And so I, I know a lot of it

653
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,760
that they don't reveal because
it is sacred.

654
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,360
Right.
This was this idea of if Joseph

655
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,640
Smith didn't reveal it to us,
they're not going to reveal

656
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,480
everything that they learned,
but they're giving us a witness

657
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:39,960
that they did have that
knowledge.

658
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,360
Excellent.
Yeah, Yeah.

659
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,680
No, absolutely.
So does does Mary Leitner ever

660
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,360
recount on any of her assertions
in this?

661
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,760
No.
And I'm so glad you asked that

662
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:59,240
because it's so interesting to
me that one of the other

663
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:03,760
arguments that I hear them make
is, for example, they'll say

664
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,360
that the women said that they
were their wives of Joseph Smith

665
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,040
because it gave them a prominent
position in Utah.

666
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,240
And if you know the story of
Elizabeth, Mary Elizabeth

667
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:20,360
Rollins Leitner, she actually
lived in poverty in Utah.

668
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,360
She lived, I think she lived in
southern Utah.

669
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,960
I can't remember it was Cedar
City or Saint George.

670
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,520
So while we have like the
prominent women like Helen Mark

671
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:38,360
Kimball and Eliza R Snow and
Elizabeth Whitney, and that had

672
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,480
prominence and had positions of
honor in the church, you have

673
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,200
Mary Elizabeth Rollins Leitner,
who basically lived apart from

674
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,040
these women.
She's living in poverty.

675
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,840
And when Joseph Smith the third
comes to Utah and sends

676
00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:02,200
missionaries, she writes, she
basically writes to the women's

677
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,880
exponent.
We'll talk about that later.

678
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,880
And she says, well, here I just
want no one's asked me.

679
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,320
I never got a chance to speak to
Joseph Smith the third, but I

680
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,080
here's my testimony, you know,
use it as you will.

681
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,400
And so she recounts this
testimony and she writes this in

682
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:21,840
and she's like, here's my
testimony.

683
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,360
Use it as you will.
So there you go.

684
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,640
Why?
So if the reason they assigned

685
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,760
to the women of saying they're
married to Joseph Smith is that

686
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,400
they have a place of prominence,
why is Mary Elizabeth Rollins

687
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,440
Lightner living in poverty, not
enjoying the this prominence

688
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,120
that other women enjoyed?
Why is she still right

689
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,320
testifying of her relationship
with Joseph Smith?

690
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,880
Especially in the Utah period,
right?

691
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,400
Because look, it's not scoring
any points with the federal

692
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,880
government or the population at
large outside of Utah to be a

693
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,440
plural wife, right?
So you've got to be really

694
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,760
committed to this in order to to
do it right.

695
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,560
And I don't see anyone wanting
to ride that out through

696
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,000
poverty, through everything that
comes, unless you've got a

697
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,800
burning testimony of this.
Right.

698
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,400
Yep.
And so like, I just, I really

699
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,800
like that example just because
she's also a controversial wife,

700
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,760
just because she was married to
Adam Leitner.

701
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,560
And what's interesting is that
again, if you talk to Mary

702
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,720
Elizabeth, what about Adam,
right.

703
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:40,400
And she said, and so she, she
talks about Adam and she says my

704
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,120
husband did not belong to the
Church.

705
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:46,000
I begged him and plead with him
to join, but he would not.

706
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,280
He said he did not believe in
it, though he thought a great

707
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,840
deal of Joseph.
He sacrificed his property

708
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,200
rather than testify against
Joseph Hiram and George A Smith.

709
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:59,000
After he said this, I went
forward and was sealed to Joseph

710
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,880
for eternity.
So Adam Leitner's basically

711
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,240
giving his consent.
He's not a member of the church

712
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,160
and he, but he wouldn't testify
against Joseph Smith.

713
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,680
He never said, oh, he came in
and took my wife.

714
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,560
Nothing He gives.
He, like I said, he gives his

715
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,600
consent.
He, he actually sacrificed for

716
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,920
Joseph Smith.
And so she went forward and was

717
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,680
still to Joseph Smith for
eternity.

718
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,960
You know, and I, I want to say
this, this, this is interesting

719
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,720
because a couple things I picked
up on there.

720
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:42,440
One, she mentions I was sealed
to Joseph Smith for eternity,

721
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:44,960
right?
She doesn't say typically when

722
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,160
we talk about eternal marriage,
especially in a sacred context,

723
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,240
we tend to throw in two words
today, time and eternity, right?

724
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:56,640
All time and eternity.
She leaves out that time part,

725
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,040
which I find very interesting.
Right, Because I can only assume

726
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,400
that that's referring to this
temporal existence.

727
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:12,120
The the next thing I'll say is
that it would strike me as odd

728
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:17,680
that any man, much less a man
who, even though he might think

729
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,400
Joseph Smith's a great guy,
obviously doesn't believe his

730
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,800
doctrine.
Though is is kind of OK with

731
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,520
this arrangement, right?
That tells me that there's

732
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,040
people who are looking for the
illicit there.

733
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,760
Right back to the question of
why isn't we, why don't we see

734
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,720
more kids from Joseph, plural
Joseph plural plural wives

735
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:41,960
running around?
Well, this, this would probably

736
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,000
fall as to potentially 1 answer
for in at least one case

737
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,520
concerning the Lightner's.
So I I find all those things

738
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,040
very interesting.
Yeah, so she does.

739
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:56,080
She does stay married to Adam,
obviously and you know,

740
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,320
continues to have kids with him
and so and.

741
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,000
He moves to Utah.
That's a good question.

742
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,560
I believe so I I think he died
early on.

743
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:12,520
It is interesting to note that
she was worried about Adam and

744
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:18,520
there's a letter.
So again, there are so many

745
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,640
testimonies of, of women.
We, I, I just want to throw this

746
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,800
in really quickly as I, as I
introduced this, what I was

747
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,360
going to say about Adam is that
I hear a lot of the, the leading

748
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,280
voices of the anti polygamy
movement, namely another woman

749
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,160
who's very vocal, has her own
podcast.

750
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:41,280
I don't know if you've heard of
her.

751
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:48,160
Excuse, excuse me, tell Brady
Stone I'm so sorry I got so.

752
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,960
When you listen to her podcast,
she always says the only

753
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,920
testimonies we have of the women
are the affidavits and they are

754
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,280
signed by they're, they're not
even signed by the women.

755
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,240
They're, you know, they're test,
their signatures are forged.

756
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:09,000
And I'm that is the biggest
fallacy ever because there are

757
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,080
journals, there are Diaries,
there are hundreds of letters,

758
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,640
dozens because I've transcribed
them.

759
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,080
There are biographies, women
wrote their biographies.

760
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,560
We're going to get into the
women's exponent, the women

761
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,200
publishing their testimonies and
their and their witnesses and

762
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:31,200
the women's exponent.
But there is a letter that Mary

763
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,320
Elizabeth Rollins Leitner
writes.

764
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,600
And I want to believe it's to
Eliza or Snow.

765
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:42,800
And she talks about how that
before Joseph died, he actually

766
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,240
sealed Adam to him as a son in
the law of adoption.

767
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:51,840
Interesting.
So like we, you know, we think

768
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:57,760
of well, poor Adam, but he's
actually sealed in this

769
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:03,520
celestial family organization
now with Joseph Smith, as, you

770
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,160
know, his priesthood head and,
you know.

771
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,800
That is fascinating, especially
when when we consider that he's

772
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,000
not a member.
Right, Right.

773
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,760
That is fascinating.
Because I think with the idea

774
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:22,240
that one day he may accept the
gospel and that right, he would

775
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:24,760
be sealed.
He would be sealed to a family

776
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,560
that he, you know, he's not just
he, Joseph didn't just come in

777
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,800
and take Adam's wife and leave
him, you know, high and dry.

778
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,360
He's now sealed in this
priesthood organization.

779
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,360
You know, he joins as a if he
decides to accept the gospel,

780
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:44,720
and which I think he will be as
Joseph Smith as his head, he

781
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:49,520
will, you know, be be blessed to
be still to to a woman at some

782
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,200
point.
So it's not like he's left

783
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:56,360
without a family.
And and I think that's important

784
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,040
to understand too.
It's not just Joseph Smith

785
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,480
coming in and taking wives from
other men.

786
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,160
Again, he's restoring a family
as it existed prior.

787
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,440
And like he told that Mary
Elizabeth, no, nothing can take

788
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,160
you from me.
We're sealed.

789
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:12,960
We were sealed before we came
here.

790
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,840
We're husband and wife, right?
Right.

791
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,080
And take another man's wife.
Right.

792
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,560
So technically he she never
belongs to Adam.

793
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,760
Here.
Here's the other fascinating

794
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,280
thing, I think.
Another doctrinal insight here a

795
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:35,200
little bit, and it's not cut and
dry, but so often we say, well,

796
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,040
you know this, maybe this guy
lived around Mormons his whole

797
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,200
life.
He should have known the

798
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,120
doctrine.
Is he worthy to have his temple

799
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,680
work done?
Well, here's a guy who is

800
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,000
familiar with Joseph Smith,
familiar with the doctrine,

801
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,840
knows it in this life, passes
on.

802
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,320
And the idea is, is that he
could still have his work done.

803
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:58,040
And I find that interesting,
too, and should be a little

804
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,840
nugget for us to carry forward
as we go into temples and do

805
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,880
vicarious work for the dead.
That we don't know all the

806
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,240
circumstances, right?
There was obviously a

807
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:09,520
circumstance there that
prevented Adam Leitner from

808
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,600
being able to accept the gospel
in that time.

809
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,480
But I think it maybe should show
us that we maybe need a little

810
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,560
more liberality and making sure
that we take the right names to

811
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:24,560
the temple.
Exactly and and and I think

812
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,680
Joseph Smith knew knew his heart
and we don't circumstances

813
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:33,800
prevented him from gaining a a a
testimony in this life.

814
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,560
But for sure, I think on the
other side, he's.

815
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,160
Right, absolutely.
All right.

816
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,000
Good stuff.
Hey, so I you know, I don't know

817
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:47,800
how much time you want to spend
on.

818
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,640
I can look you.
We've done this before.

819
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:54,600
I can go as long as we need to.
You get to tell me when it's

820
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,520
time to shut it down.
So I'm just going to go through

821
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,160
again.
So I've chosen now this isn't a

822
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,000
comprehensive right list of
women because like I said, there

823
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,760
are, there are dozens and, and
we've been left with the

824
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,920
impression from leading voices
like Michelle Brady Stone that

825
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,720
the women only signed affidavits
and they were fraudulent.

826
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:19,760
And that's all we have.
When in reality, there is so

827
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,280
many things written and said by
the women.

828
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,000
And so this isn't comprehensive
by any, any means.

829
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,720
I've I've tried to choose
testimonies where it teaches us

830
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,880
a principle or teaches us
something about eternity that we

831
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,240
can learn from, because I think
that's the value of listening to

832
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:40,080
the women and actually trying to
go to the women to understand

833
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:41,240
their marriage.
Right.

834
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:47,640
Because again, if you were, if
we wanted to know what Joseph

835
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:52,040
Smith taught outside of Section
132 about poor marriage, don't

836
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,360
you want to go to the people he
taught it to?

837
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,920
Absolutely.
Exactly.

838
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,520
And so who are the women he's
talking to or who are the ones

839
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:01,400
he's talking to?
It's.

840
00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:06,280
His wives.
His wives right women and I mean

841
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,400
we, we get a lot from Brigham
Young and Heber C Kimball, but

842
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:16,240
but I really think the women
have it's just so profound what

843
00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:18,400
they what they shared with us.
Absolutely.

844
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,680
So I chose Lucy Walker Smith for
a specific reason.

845
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,000
She was a plural wife of Joseph
Smith and her I think that just

846
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,720
her experience of praying with
real intent illustrates an

847
00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:32,720
important principle for for all
of us.

848
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,760
So again, she, she's being
taught the principle of her

849
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,720
marriage.
And first she's like, this is

850
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,760
not for me, right?
Like she has.

851
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,240
I think the and, and that's what
I love about the women is you

852
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:52,680
hear like they make you, you
know, they make you feel seen

853
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,280
and heard that, wait, these
women have the same reaction as

854
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,840
I would, right?
Or that I'm like, no way would I

855
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:05,160
ever consider this.
So she said so as she's relating

856
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,760
her experience, she said that of
course she's being taught the

857
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,440
principal encouraged, you have
to pray about it.

858
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,080
Go get your own witness, just
like in any principle of the

859
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,080
gospel.
And she says, I felt I prayed

860
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:21,280
sincerely but was so unwilling
to consider the matter favorable

861
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:25,120
that I fear I did not ask in
faith or light.

862
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,200
Growth, starkness instead of
light took possession of my

863
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,480
mind.
I was tempted and tortured

864
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,320
beyond endurance until life was
not desirable.

865
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:39,360
So what?
What did we learn from that

866
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,760
experience?
Well, oh, sorry, I thought that

867
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:45,240
that was rhetorical.
Go ahead.

868
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:46,920
No, that was a question.
Go ahead.

869
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:51,640
I to me, one of the things that
that really stick out to me are,

870
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:57,320
are two one, if you're going to
ask a question to the Lord, you

871
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,560
had better be sincere, right?
You had better not come with any

872
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,560
preconceived notions.
And certainly I'm, I'm guilty of

873
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,680
that from time to time.
I think we all are right.

874
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,440
We all have desires and wants
that we want to have fulfilled.

875
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,720
But sometimes though, that's not
what's best for us.

876
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:20,320
So when you go to prayer, when
you go to receive, ask for

877
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:24,640
knowledge and that sort of
thing, you had better be able to

878
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,640
really make a good case and and
then be able to to accept the

879
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,640
answer that comes the next
question.

880
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:39,280
The next thing that that really
jumps out at me is this idea of

881
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:44,360
wrestling with things, right?
It wasn't a one off thing I

882
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,640
asked.
No, didn't like it.

883
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,520
So I'm done.
Continue to wrestle with it.

884
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,360
Right.
I was just reading here the

885
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:57,280
other day that the word wrestle
and embrace are fairly similar

886
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,240
in the Hebrew.
And so as I've looked at at the

887
00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:04,880
story of, of Jacob wrestling
with the Angel, you know, I, I

888
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,480
was like, OK, so is that wrestle
or is that embrace?

889
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:11,120
Well, sometimes I think it's a
matter of timing on that, right?

890
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,520
Maybe it's you start out as
wrestling with things that you

891
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:19,040
later come to embrace as you
gain more light and knowledge

892
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,040
and more understanding on the
subject.

893
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,120
Those were the two things that
jumped out at me.

894
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,760
Yeah, that's, that's exactly.
And I and that's why I wanted to

895
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:29,440
share that because I think
that's just this important

896
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,240
principle of even in the Book of
Mormon, when Morona is asking us

897
00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:36,280
to pray, he says you have to
pray with a sincere heart and

898
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:40,560
real intent.
And then so, then Lucy Walker,

899
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,680
she's so.
She shares that.

900
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:48,240
And then she goes on to say, oh,
how I prayed earnestly for a

901
00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:50,960
manifestation of the will of God
concerning me.

902
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,120
It was nearer dawn after another
sleepless night, when my room

903
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,280
was lighted up by a heavenly
influence To me.

904
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,760
It was, in comparison, like the
brilliant sun bursting through

905
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,600
the darkest cloud.
My soul was filled with the

906
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,840
calm, sweet peace that I never
knew.

907
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,720
Supreme happiness took
possession of me, and I received

908
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:19,240
a powerful, powerful, and
irresistible testimony of the

909
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:23,400
truth of poor marriage, which
has been like an anchor to my

910
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,320
soul.
True, yeah.

911
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:31,720
And then gets gets the answer
that that is the truth.

912
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:33,880
Not what.
Maybe not what she wanted at

913
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,360
first, but the truth.
Right.

914
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,400
And she even says that it was.
What did she say?

915
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:44,240
So first she's in darkness and
she said she was tempted and

916
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,680
tortured and it was made life
undesirable.

917
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:50,320
And now she's saying supreme
happiness took possession of me.

918
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:55,520
And and then she goes on to say,
as I was praying this last time,

919
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,720
an Angel of the Lord appeared to
me and told me the principle was

920
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:04,320
of God, and for me to accept it.
Wow, wow.

921
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,080
Right.
So again, we don't know.

922
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,480
And so God, I am a firm believer
that God never gives a

923
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:12,920
revelation without reasons for
understanding it.

924
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,960
So I don't think the Angel just
said it's true.

925
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:20,280
Accept it.
We know that at that moment she

926
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:24,160
received knowledge from this
Angel.

927
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:30,440
Right.
Who and and what who, if it's OK

928
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,000
to ask who, who is she exactly
right.

929
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,720
It's one thing to read about
this one instance in her life,

930
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,960
which is super important.
I don't want to downplay that.

931
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,960
But as you were alluding to
before, she's more than just a

932
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,600
plural wife, right?
She's got a story to tell.

933
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:47,960
Who?
Who is she?

934
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:51,640
Lucy Walker.
Yeah.

935
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:57,520
Well I mean, she wouldn't.
Was she married to afterwards?

936
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,080
Was she married?
I'm trying to remember if she's

937
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:05,600
one of the women that does
testify that she consummated the

938
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,680
marriage with Joseph Smith.
OK.

939
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,160
And so we know that about her
for sure.

940
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,720
She's, I think she goes on to be
married to, to Brigham Young

941
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,560
and, and why, why do you think
that's important?

942
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:27,160
I think this is this is my
opinion on why she's she marries

943
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,720
Brigham Young.
I think 1.

944
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,480
As has been stated, she gains a
burning testimony of this.

945
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:39,280
But I've often wondered at times
if if Brigham did not feel

946
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:42,120
because we know how Brigham felt
about Joseph, right?

947
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:46,200
That's that's that's his ride or
die.

948
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,640
He he would go to the ends of
the earth for Joseph Smith.

949
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,920
And I think probably it was a
way that Brigham could ensure

950
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,520
her safety.
I would imagine on some level

951
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,280
those are my answers.
She's got a testimony of it, and

952
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,160
then Brigham wants to ensure her
safety.

953
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,160
Yes.
And, and also we know that

954
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:12,640
there's quotes from Hiram Smith
that said that that the

955
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:17,560
principle of the leave rate
marriage would be restored.

956
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:20,200
OK.
And that would fall into that?

957
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,960
Yep.
Yep, and she was actually so I

958
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,920
was just wanting to make sure I
didn't I represented her well

959
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,480
that I was just looking up.
It says that it she appears to

960
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:34,600
be no, we talked about Mary
Elizabeth Leitner was one of the

961
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,360
first women God commanded for
him to take.

962
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,560
But of course we know that at
that time he didn't he he didn't

963
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,800
obey at that time.
But Lucy Walker was one of the

964
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:48,000
first women that was taught the
principal of the of the

965
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,680
restoration of her marriage.
Let's see.

966
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:57,160
Yeah.
So she's again burning

967
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,320
testimony.
She remains faithful to it

968
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,040
throughout her life.
Again.

969
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,120
So again, why would you marry
Brigham Young?

970
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:06,720
Why not now?
The.

971
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,360
She's a widow.
If once Joseph Smith passes

972
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:11,640
away, she's a widow.
She could go out and have, you

973
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:16,560
know, you think if this was
about romance, she could then go

974
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,360
out and marry somebody else for
time.

975
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:22,960
But she chooses to to marry
Brigham Young.

976
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,040
And I think that it speaks to,
again, this idea that she

977
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:31,360
understood.
She understands the purpose on a

978
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:32,840
level that we don't even
understand.

979
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:35,840
Like, I can't say what she knew
because she doesn't tell us.

980
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:37,840
She is.
All she says is that an Angel

981
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:39,640
appeared to me and told me that
it was true.

982
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,120
Can I ask you a question that
may take us on a tangent for

983
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:45,560
just a minute?
Yeah.

984
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:48,760
Because you brought you brought
up something interesting.

985
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:53,880
And I, and I want to say this
from the outset, I am a guy who

986
01:01:53,880 --> 01:02:01,840
believes that no man should
arrange a marriage for other

987
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,680
people.
I think that that's only a

988
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:10,840
recipe for disaster, but
something that was said that you

989
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,840
said in there, I think it is, is
super important.

990
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,320
It's something I've been looking
at a lot lately, especially

991
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:18,320
since I have kids now of
marrying age.

992
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:25,080
And that is we, we look at
ceilings and eternal marriage

993
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:29,480
now from a very romantic point
of view, right.

994
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:33,760
And I'm not saying that that's
bad, but also I think there

995
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:37,520
needs to be a, a longer view of
this, right?

996
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,040
You got to play the long game in
it.

997
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:43,920
And, and sometimes I think
because of our, our, the, the

998
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:47,600
day and age that we live in, I
think a lot of people want the

999
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,880
the notebook version, Mormon
style, right?

1000
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:56,600
Where it's this really low, you
know, super romantic thing.

1001
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,760
But I often wonder if sometimes
we're not, we're, we're not

1002
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,120
served well with that mentality,
right?

1003
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:07,280
Rather is, is this the person
I'm supposed to be with?

1004
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:09,800
And again, I'm not for arranged
marriages.

1005
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:16,720
I, I, I parted ways with with
certain people over this issue

1006
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,440
because I find it so repugnant
when someone else arranges it.

1007
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:24,720
But people, I think as, as they
pick a spouse and something I've

1008
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,080
counseled my kids on is make
sure that you're playing the

1009
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,640
long game here.
Look, looks fade.

1010
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:33,800
You know, I I've told my boy,
someday this is what you're

1011
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:35,440
going to look like.
I hate to break it to you.

1012
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,240
This is who you are.
So you better have something

1013
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:43,040
else in place other than just
raw desire and and romance in

1014
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:44,520
that place.
Is that making sense?

1015
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:48,000
Yeah, for sure.
And I and I would just say too

1016
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:53,280
that I think that we also have
AI guess a corrupted definition

1017
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:57,200
of what love is.
Yeah, like we, I don't think we

1018
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,920
understand what true love is.
Like true love is sacrificial

1019
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:02,560
love.
It's about laying down your life

1020
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:06,320
for another person.
It's about putting somebody else

1021
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:10,960
first, right?
It's about, it's just, it's the

1022
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:12,840
kind of love that Jesus Christ
has.

1023
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:14,960
Right.
Absolutely.

1024
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:18,080
Church, right So.
Yeah, yeah.

1025
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:19,560
No, absolutely.
OK.

1026
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:21,280
That was it.
That was my side tangent.

1027
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:23,680
That's that's one of the
smallest tangents I go on.

1028
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:28,960
And, and this idea too, that
like you, then you don't, you

1029
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,520
know, like then people think,
well, were these women then just

1030
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:34,240
stuck in these loveless
marriages?

1031
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:39,720
And again, I think it's because
it's about this sacrificial love

1032
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:43,480
what, what they knew what this
was designed to accomplish.

1033
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:47,760
And, and again, so why were they
doing it?

1034
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:53,960
Was it so they they could have
like the, you know, the romantic

1035
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:57,560
where we walk on the beach and
we have, you know, Sunday

1036
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:04,160
picnics or you can have this
eternal marriage where you

1037
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:07,880
obtain celestial glory.
And I just think that we do not

1038
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,880
understand what marriage is like
in heaven.

1039
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:16,720
So, but obviously these women
did, otherwise they wouldn't

1040
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,080
have done it because they did
have a choice.

1041
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,920
And and that's I guess what I'm
hoping that we, we understand

1042
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:27,960
about these women.
And so, and some of these I'm

1043
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:33,240
not I, these women, I just, I
shared just their testimonies,

1044
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:37,520
OK, Some of them are not as, as
elaborate as others.

1045
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:43,000
But for example, Desdemona
Fulmer, I chose her because I

1046
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,880
feel like her, she's an
interesting, she was a plural

1047
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:47,720
wife of Joseph Smith.
But I feel like if you

1048
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,280
understood her life before she
became a member of the church, I

1049
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:54,920
think it's very important
because she actually had similar

1050
01:05:54,920 --> 01:06:01,160
religious experiences like
Joseph Smith, for example, she

1051
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:05,120
was one that was actually
searching for the truth, like

1052
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,160
Joseph Smith.
And so she said she began to

1053
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:13,120
read the Bible and then she
received what she termed was a

1054
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:16,120
promise from the Lord that she
would be saved in the Kingdom of

1055
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:19,480
God.
And so she then continued

1056
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:21,560
seeking.
So she's like, I'm not going to

1057
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:24,320
join any church.
I need to join a church or

1058
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,480
religion where I this promise
can be fulfilled.

1059
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,400
And so she said, she continued
seeking.

1060
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:33,960
And she said, quote, I was
looking forward to a time when

1061
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:36,960
the knowledge of God would cover
the earth.

1062
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:42,640
She used a couple of very key
Mormon terms in there long

1063
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:47,120
before she was a Mormon, right?
This idea of the Kingdom, right?

1064
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:51,800
I mean, in Mormon, especially
early Mormonism, that's a huge

1065
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,720
point right there.
There is a difference between

1066
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:56,760
the church and the Kingdom, so
to speak, right?

1067
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,920
And so she in that term, and
she's talking about being saved

1068
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:03,360
in the Kingdom.
The the other thing is this,

1069
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:07,600
this idea of the truth covering
the earth, very, very

1070
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:11,160
reminiscent of things Joseph had
said and prophesied about

1071
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:14,000
Mormonism.
Fascinating stuff.

1072
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:16,760
Right.
And so we have to remember

1073
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,200
again, these were women that
were educated on the Bible and

1074
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,160
so they understood this
covenant, this ancient covenant.

1075
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,800
They knew these prophecies of
the last days.

1076
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,000
They were not ignorant.
They they were actually so

1077
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:31,080
knowledgeable.
And that's what I love about

1078
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:35,200
learning about these women,
about how how much that they,

1079
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:38,080
you know, they are.
I feel like these are like the

1080
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:39,720
women you read about in the
Scripture.

1081
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:44,360
Right.
And so her testimony is is quite

1082
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:47,600
simple.
So that was her before this was,

1083
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:49,280
you know, so she continued
looking.

1084
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,480
So then, you know, we know she
joins the church.

1085
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:54,160
She becomes a plural wife of
Joseph Smith.

1086
01:07:54,160 --> 01:08:00,040
And she said, she just said
simply, she testified that she

1087
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:05,680
had a night vision and an Angel
appeared to her and told her

1088
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:08,560
that the principle is true.
And so she said, having been

1089
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:12,000
convinced to the truth of
polygamy, I therefore entered

1090
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:17,080
into that order and that that
was all she gave us.

1091
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:21,279
But again, she had a night
vision.

1092
01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:23,160
We don't know what she saw in
that night vision.

1093
01:08:23,399 --> 01:08:28,000
But when God gives you a vision,
it's usually he reveals things

1094
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:34,160
to you that you don't you you
you don't know before, right?

1095
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:37,399
Right, right, right.
And it's kind of pointless to

1096
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:40,600
argue at that point that's
that's, that's over.

1097
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,680
Yeah, and then and and and Angel
appeared to her.

1098
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,760
So she's having these, they're
having these heavenly

1099
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:50,960
experiences as what I guess I
want, I want to point out

1100
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:54,600
they're having and they're
worthy of them, right?

1101
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,319
I thought, I don't think that an
Angel just appears to anybody to

1102
01:08:57,319 --> 01:08:59,520
tell an Angel doesn't didn't
come to me to tell me the Book

1103
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,720
of Mormon was true.
I got my testimony through the

1104
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,040
Holy Ghost, which is perfectly
fine.

1105
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:10,279
But what is it about these women
that that they're getting these

1106
01:09:10,279 --> 01:09:13,000
heavenly experiences?
They're essentially getting the

1107
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,160
same experiences as Joseph
Smith.

1108
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:18,920
Joseph Smith had angels coming
to him to teach him.

1109
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:21,600
They're getting the same
experiences.

1110
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:25,160
What does this tell us about who
these women are?

1111
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:27,920
Well, I think it I think it
points to two things.

1112
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:35,399
One, you can't just make the
assumption here that these women

1113
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:40,120
are uneducated, which has been
another slam on on plural

1114
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:43,479
marriage for a long time, right?
They're just uneducated.

1115
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:45,520
I mean, they don't know any
better, right?

1116
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:48,160
They're they're not.
Maybe they're, their mental

1117
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:51,200
prowess isn't there and and they
can't do that.

1118
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:55,960
That doesn't seem to be the case
'cause they all are intelligent,

1119
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,240
intellectual, as we're seeing
here, as you quote them,

1120
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,880
articulate women who have done
the homework, so to speak.

1121
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:08,360
The other thing I would say is I
think even more than the

1122
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:12,560
intellectual capacity and
honesty, there's got to be

1123
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:14,320
something deeper on the inside,
right?

1124
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:20,760
A heart that's willing to accept
truth, consequences be damned.

1125
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,320
You know what I mean?
Just willing to go for it.

1126
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:27,120
Yep.
And, and, and that's why I think

1127
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:32,680
it's like, again, that's why I
have the hardest time watching

1128
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:38,400
just this conversation about
PLUR marriage when we don't talk

1129
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:42,360
about the women, because the
women are the second-half of the

1130
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:44,400
restoration.
Yeah, absolutely.

1131
01:10:45,440 --> 01:10:49,080
And and I'm not a feminist.
I don't, I'm not here to be like

1132
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:54,120
rah, rah women's rights.
I'm just here to say that women

1133
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:56,760
have an important role in the
Kingdom of God.

1134
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:00,240
That that like I said, they are
the second-half of the

1135
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:02,360
restoration.
The restoration did not happen

1136
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:06,040
without these women.
We even go back to Mary

1137
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,120
Elizabeth Rawlins Leitner.
Well, who was she?

1138
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:12,720
She's the the girl at 12 years
old who saves the book of

1139
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:16,920
commandments.
So we, we tell, right, we tell

1140
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:20,920
that story in church history and
we, oh, she's, she saves the

1141
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:22,040
book of commandments.
She's 12.

1142
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:26,240
She takes the manuscript and she
runs from the mob and, you know,

1143
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:28,200
and hides and she saves the book
of commandments.

1144
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:33,000
Well, because she's of such a
character that she prized the

1145
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:38,120
revelations of God enough to
risk her life to preserve them

1146
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,240
and to save them.
Absolutely.

1147
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:44,840
You know, and you say something
very, you said something very

1148
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:50,080
interesting there that women are
the second-half of the the

1149
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:55,160
restoration.
That's that's a big statement.

1150
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:58,440
But yet I'm not sure that even
does it real justice, right?

1151
01:11:58,440 --> 01:12:04,520
Because from, from a very
practical standpoint, I can

1152
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:09,120
testify that this whole thing as
far as plural marriage and that

1153
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:13,600
sort of stuff, it falls apart if
women are not amenable to it,

1154
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:15,840
right?
If they do not have a burning

1155
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:20,960
testimony of it.
And so this idea that they were

1156
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:24,120
duped or they were just kind of
tricked into it, that doesn't

1157
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:26,440
hold water either.
Because the look, the truth

1158
01:12:26,440 --> 01:12:28,840
always comes out.
No matter what, it always comes

1159
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:32,080
out.
And if, if this was just a

1160
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:34,800
Joseph thing, if this was just,
hey, he's got a cult of

1161
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,320
personality, right?
He's, he's really smooth.

1162
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:41,520
That's going to wear off when
he's dead right and they have

1163
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:44,880
other viable options but yet
still choose this.

1164
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:48,640
So the idea that they're just
duped, that doesn't hold water.

1165
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,720
Right now when you start to read
their testimonies, and that's

1166
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:56,920
why I can see why Michelle Brady
Stone, she runs from the women's

1167
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,240
testimonies.
She doesn't, she doesn't want to

1168
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:01,960
talk about them.
She she pretends they don't

1169
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:03,760
exist.
She pretends they're not there.

1170
01:13:04,240 --> 01:13:08,240
And when you do point out any
like, well, I was having a

1171
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,840
conversation with her one day
just online.

1172
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:15,160
Obviously she doesn't.
We don't talk in person.

1173
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:17,800
You don't hang out, you don't
you don't like, do you?

1174
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:19,680
You don't have lunch dates.
I'm shocked.

1175
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:23,480
I I don't know what to do.
I don't know why we'd get along

1176
01:13:23,480 --> 01:13:25,880
great.
Not just kidding, but I was

1177
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:28,120
pointing out, I'm like, well,
what about Elizabeth Whitney?

1178
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:31,560
She's the mother of Sarah Ann
Whitney, who was a plurality to

1179
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:36,800
Joseph Smith, and she wrote her
an autobiography and she related

1180
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:42,480
the experience of Joseph Smith
teaching her family her marriage

1181
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,040
and then her giving her daughter
in marriage to the Prophet

1182
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:46,920
Joseph Smith.
What about that?

1183
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:53,080
And I you could not believe the
just the mental gymnastics she

1184
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:58,520
went from everything to that's a
forgery to oh, she was forced to

1185
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:01,480
write that.
Like, I'm like, OK, you can

1186
01:14:01,480 --> 01:14:04,000
infer that, right?
You you can say that all you

1187
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:07,200
want and you can't even believe
it, but where's the evidence?

1188
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:09,360
Right.
Right.

1189
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:14,880
And and that's, that's the part
that drives me nuts, right?

1190
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:19,360
Because look, we do have record
of women living, leaving plural

1191
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:22,400
marriage that they weren't, they
weren't a fan of it, right?

1192
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:26,480
Even some of Brigham's wife's
just leave 'cause they're not a

1193
01:14:26,480 --> 01:14:28,080
fan of it.
That's cool.

1194
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,200
You do you, right?
I mean, what?

1195
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:34,960
Whatever it takes, but in the
absence of any other evidence to

1196
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:38,560
just call it a forgery.
Where's your proof?

1197
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:40,480
Where's your proof that it's a
forgery?

1198
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:43,560
I've heard the claims.
You know, Michelle Brady Stone

1199
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:47,040
is really good at making claims,
but she stinks on ice when it

1200
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:48,680
comes time to back those claims
up.

1201
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:51,760
And that's something I'm willing
to go to the mat on here on this

1202
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:55,480
one, because she really is.
Wait.

1203
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:03,200
OK, look, at this point, I can't
even say she's just horribly

1204
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:05,640
mistaken.
We're crossing into the lines

1205
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:08,080
now that that quite frankly are
just lies.

1206
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:13,760
And, and that is the most
disturbing part to me is, is

1207
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:18,960
just the, the willingness to
just continue to lie about it,

1208
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:24,080
knowing you got to know at this
point that it's, it's the, the

1209
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:27,280
stuff she's saying is false when
when the only thing she can do

1210
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:31,320
is claim that it's a forgery and
not produce any evidence that it

1211
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,720
is a forgery if it should fall
on deaf ears at that point.

1212
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:39,800
Yeah, it's, it was, it's just
frustrating 'cause obviously the

1213
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:43,280
that's what people want to hear.
OK, I can dismiss this woman

1214
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:47,240
because Michelle said it's a
forgery, but I what I really

1215
01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:49,800
liked what?
Have you ever read the book or

1216
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:52,600
are you aware of the book The
Women of Mormondem?

1217
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:56,120
Yes, I have read excerpts.
I haven't went all the way

1218
01:15:56,120 --> 01:16:00,200
through, but I'll be honest with
you when when I want to get

1219
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:02,880
inside, I shouldn't say get
inside the mind of, but

1220
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:05,600
understand what Joseph was
really talking about.

1221
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:10,080
Tend to go to that one because
there is a lot in there.

1222
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:14,360
And just like all men do we
confide in our wives, right?

1223
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:19,920
There's they are absolutely the
ones we go to when when things

1224
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:24,200
get the toughest and there are a
lot of Nuggets from Joseph Smith

1225
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,000
in that book.
It is phenomenal.

1226
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,880
I keep it by the side of my bed.
I I refer to it often.

1227
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:36,480
I just I love that book and I
loved at what, what's his name?

1228
01:16:36,480 --> 01:16:39,040
Edward Tulage.
He's the author.

1229
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:42,640
And it was, he did write that
under, you know, the direction

1230
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:45,120
of Elizar Snow.
And the women did have input

1231
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:47,560
because obviously this is a
history of their lives.

1232
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:50,240
But I really liked what he said
in the introduction.

1233
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:53,720
He said, He said, the record of
their lives.

1234
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaking about the women, it is
now sent unto you that you may

1235
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:01,320
have an opportunity to judge
them in the spirit of

1236
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:05,280
righteousness.
So shall you be judged by Him

1237
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:08,720
whom they have honored, whose
glory they have sought, and

1238
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:14,640
whose name they have magnified.
And so I don't care if you

1239
01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:18,680
disagree with these women, but
you cannot judge them in the

1240
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:21,120
spirit of righteousness if you
have not listened to their

1241
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:23,760
testimonies and their witnesses
of what they knew to be true.

1242
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:31,920
So for Michelle to just claim
that was a forgery, she was

1243
01:17:32,440 --> 01:17:35,960
trauma bonded, she was forced to
do this, she was lying.

1244
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:39,800
She cannot do that in the spirit
of righteousness if she does not

1245
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:43,880
even acknowledge that these
testimonies exist, that these

1246
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:48,000
women left a record of their
testimony that we don't.

1247
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:52,160
They're not just affidavits that
were signed that don't have

1248
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:55,720
their real signatures, that they
are actual witness statements

1249
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,480
from the women.
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1250
01:17:58,480 --> 01:18:02,160
Renegade podcast?
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1251
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:06,080
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1252
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:08,280
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1253
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1254
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1255
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1257
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:28,760
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Click the link in this episode's

1258
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:32,440
show notes today.
Claim that was a forgery.

1259
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:36,560
She was trauma bonded.
She was forced to do this.

1260
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:39,520
She was lying.
She cannot do that in the spirit

1261
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:43,160
of righteousness if she does not
even acknowledge that these

1262
01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:46,960
testimonies exist, that these
women left a record of their

1263
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:51,440
testimony that we don't.
They're not just affidavits that

1264
01:18:51,440 --> 01:18:55,000
were signed that don't have
their real signatures that they

1265
01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:00,640
are actual witness statements
from the women, if that makes

1266
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:03,240
sense.
Absolutely it does 100%.

1267
01:19:03,240 --> 01:19:05,480
I couldn't agree with you more.
Yeah.

1268
01:19:05,480 --> 01:19:10,680
And so I, I just, yeah, again,
it's about we have, I think we

1269
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:14,560
have a duty and a responsibility
to seek out these testimonies,

1270
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:21,840
to seek out what the women said.
OK, So just going on 'cause I, I

1271
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:26,120
really do want to get to Eliza
Arsenault because, you know, as

1272
01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:29,280
we know, she's the most
celebrated woman in Mormon

1273
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:33,240
history for good reason.
But I really like what she

1274
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:38,560
taught us in her testimony of
her marriage, 'cause she said,

1275
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:43,160
and, and again, you listen to
her as she grew in knowledge.

1276
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:47,200
And again, she's like any any
other woman where she's first

1277
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:51,200
introduced to the practice and
she recorded in her journal, she

1278
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:54,800
said The subject was very
repugnant to my feelings.

1279
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:00,080
This is just a natural reaction
and I love that these women are

1280
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:04,280
honest.
So she goes on to write, though,

1281
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:08,320
she says.
But later, after growing in her

1282
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:12,080
understanding of the principle
through the instruction of the

1283
01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:17,040
Holy Ghost, she wrote.
Quote As I increased in

1284
01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:21,000
knowledge concerning the
principal and the design of her

1285
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:25,360
marriage, I grew in love with it
and today esteem it as a

1286
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:29,080
precious sacred principle.
Wow, that's.

1287
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:35,520
Interesting.
Does she, does she ever have

1288
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:41,320
like, because, because we saw
with, with Lucy Walker Smith and

1289
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:45,320
and Desdemona Fulmer that they
kind of have heavenly

1290
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:49,840
visitations, right?
Does Eliza, because she seems to

1291
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:53,400
say through the spirit, right?
And and I'm fascinated with the

1292
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:58,720
different mechanism there.
Yeah, so, well, I'll do so in

1293
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:03,920
her testimony.
She doesn't ever allude to that,

1294
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:08,760
but I did want to share an
experience that she had after

1295
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:11,440
actually after the death of the
Prophet Joseph Smith.

1296
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:17,280
So before I get to that, I just
wanted to I if I could just

1297
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:19,680
finish reading her testimony.
Sorry, sorry about that.

1298
01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:24,720
Oh, no, you didn't jump.
I was just, I just wanted to

1299
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:29,160
finish reading it 'cause like I
said it, it what they say in

1300
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:33,640
these testimony again is
teaching us something about the

1301
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:38,440
order of Heaven, right.
And so she goes on to say, you

1302
01:21:38,440 --> 01:21:43,560
know, she, she grows in the, in
the knowledge, she increases in

1303
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:46,880
knowledge.
So this was, so I will say this.

1304
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:50,880
So like where other women say
they had these heavenly visions

1305
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,160
and they had angels coming to
him, she's saying that she

1306
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:56,440
increases in knowledge to the
spirit.

1307
01:21:56,440 --> 01:22:01,080
So she's learning line upon
line, precept upon precept, kind

1308
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:03,200
of like how we're supposed to
learn.

1309
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:07,440
So I, I love that too, that
here's a different experience

1310
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:10,920
where she doesn't get the
heavenly vision that we know of

1311
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:16,000
because she doesn't say that,
but she still increases in

1312
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:20,000
knowledge of it.
So she's being taught throughout

1313
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:23,840
her life.
And, and so I, I love that.

1314
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:26,920
And so she said in Nauvoo, I
first understood the practice of

1315
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:29,200
plurality of wives was to be
introduced in the church.

1316
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:31,360
The subject was very repudnant
to my feelings.

1317
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:34,520
And then she goes on to say, But
when I reflected that I was

1318
01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:37,880
living in the dispensation of
the fullness of times, embracing

1319
01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:43,200
all other dispensations, surely
poor marriage must necessarily

1320
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:47,600
be included.
So again, this idea that these

1321
01:22:47,600 --> 01:22:50,680
women were educated in the
Bible.

1322
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:53,720
He's.
Saying, well, if this is the

1323
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:58,240
fullness of times and we know
that it happened anciently, it

1324
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:02,720
must be part of.
Yeah, it's got to come back.

1325
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:07,960
There's no way if if Abraham
practiced that in in

1326
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:13,560
faithfulness, which I believe he
did, if if we know that David

1327
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:16,400
had problems, but plural
marriage doesn't seem to be one

1328
01:23:16,400 --> 01:23:20,480
of them.
I believe Moses was was living

1329
01:23:20,480 --> 01:23:24,280
that principle as well.
We know that he did it in

1330
01:23:24,280 --> 01:23:26,840
righteousness.
So it's got to be a true

1331
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:28,920
principle.
And if it's a true principle and

1332
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:32,320
then going on to say that this
is the dispensation of the

1333
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:35,600
fullness of times, it's got to,
it's got to make a return.

1334
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:38,400
It has.
To Yeah.

1335
01:23:38,480 --> 01:23:42,760
And so another highlight of her
testimony.

1336
01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:46,560
Again, I think this speaks to
the character of the women, she

1337
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:48,880
says.
It was not long, however, after

1338
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:51,480
I received this first
intimation, before the

1339
01:23:51,480 --> 01:23:56,080
announcement reached me that the
set time had come that God had

1340
01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:58,920
commanded His servants to
establish the order by taking

1341
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:02,560
additional wives.
I knew that God was speaking.

1342
01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:08,600
So there to me what stands out
to me?

1343
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:12,080
And then you can tell me what?
Well, first tell me what you

1344
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:16,320
what stands out to you in that
last part of her testimony?

1345
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:21,000
He seems to get something that
it's made known to her that

1346
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:26,760
quote, the set time had arrived
right that that she is somehow

1347
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:31,960
Privy to something that maybe
others weren't.

1348
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:35,600
That was the thing that jumped
out to me on that and that she

1349
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:39,600
had heard it from the voice of
God himself right.

1350
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:42,440
She said that she heard that
voice.

1351
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:46,520
Now what mechanism is that?
Is that from the pulpit as

1352
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:53,440
Joseph is, is preaching?
Is that a a, you know, a a her

1353
01:24:53,440 --> 01:24:56,240
hearing a voice and and some of
her quiet reflection or

1354
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:58,360
meditation or prayer?
I'm not sure.

1355
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:03,280
But it seems to be that she has
one some idea that this is

1356
01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:07,560
coming and then that that quote
set time had arrived.

1357
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:10,800
Almost like she was being
prepared right?

1358
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:15,120
And then also hearing the voice
of God somehow.

1359
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:19,080
Yes, and she said she knew that
it was God of those speaking.

1360
01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:22,560
And what I liked about that is
because I think often and

1361
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:24,880
there's a scripture and I'm
probably going to butcher it

1362
01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:31,120
where it says how does a man,
how does a man know a master?

1363
01:25:31,120 --> 01:25:36,360
He has not served or something.
And so I'm like she, if she can,

1364
01:25:36,440 --> 01:25:41,120
she recognized the voice of God,
it's because she has been

1365
01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:46,800
serving God.
He's not just a she's not just

1366
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,560
this Sinner who was converted to
Christianity.

1367
01:25:51,480 --> 01:25:54,920
She's not a Christian converted
to the Book of Mormon.

1368
01:25:56,360 --> 01:26:03,280
She is a woman that has that
knows God, she knows his voice.

1369
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:08,840
She knows the scriptures.
She understands the the role of

1370
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:13,280
Joseph Smith in and restoring
the fullness of the dispensation

1371
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:19,720
of times.
So and again, so if we want to

1372
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:24,080
understand the restoration, why
will we not go to, to those men

1373
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:28,320
and women who knew absolutely
right.

1374
01:26:28,440 --> 01:26:33,160
They weren't just like, oh, I
don't know what's going on here

1375
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:37,600
as these things are happening.
No, they're, they're, they're

1376
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:41,400
seeing and experiencing, right?
Especially the wives of Joseph.

1377
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:45,720
They're they're the experiences
that they're having are beyond

1378
01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:49,920
just seen, right?
They are understanding at a much

1379
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:56,520
deeper level what is happening
here, which again, and I want to

1380
01:26:56,520 --> 01:27:03,160
say this too, right, oftentimes
in Christendom, up until quite

1381
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:07,640
frankly, Joseph Smith, the idea
was, well, the world's the way

1382
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:09,880
it is because Eve screwed up,
right?

1383
01:27:12,120 --> 01:27:15,080
This flies in the face of that,
right?

1384
01:27:15,440 --> 01:27:21,240
This is on par, in my opinion,
with the savior showing up and

1385
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:24,920
we, you know, it, it'd be a
conversation for a later day.

1386
01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:28,400
We can talk about why that is,
but it's on par with the savior

1387
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:33,640
showing up first to announce
himself to a woman right after

1388
01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:39,080
his resurrection.
It's it's putting women back in,

1389
01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:46,440
in their their proper elevated
station, in my opinion, within

1390
01:27:46,440 --> 01:27:51,200
the gospel and, and it it's
showing how God feels about his

1391
01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:55,760
daughters and that they're not,
they're not what Christendom had

1392
01:27:55,760 --> 01:28:00,400
painted them to be as the bane
of of this existence.

1393
01:28:00,400 --> 01:28:03,560
Cause evade the fruit.
Exactly.

1394
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:07,120
And yeah, like I like they're
restoring women to their.

1395
01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:10,080
Yep.
High Holy positions as

1396
01:28:10,120 --> 01:28:16,920
priestesses and prophetesses,
Queens and priestess unto God.

1397
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:20,960
And so a lot of people, you
know, there's a lot of

1398
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:24,240
accusations made against Eliza
or Snow that she's part of this

1399
01:28:25,280 --> 01:28:33,440
push to, you know, convince
women to lie and part of, you

1400
01:28:33,440 --> 01:28:38,800
know, Brigham Young's cabal.
And, and I, I just take so such

1401
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,600
great offense because of who
Elizar Snow is as a woman.

1402
01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:46,440
She, she even said that plural
marriage did not hurt her.

1403
01:28:48,280 --> 01:28:51,600
She said polygamy did not hurt
me, but to be looked upon as a

1404
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:53,560
woman of light character did
hurt me.

1405
01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:56,880
The very idea of my not being a
virtuous woman.

1406
01:28:57,440 --> 01:29:00,440
Wow.
Yeah, so you can see that she's

1407
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:06,520
what was worse to her, like the
plural marriage was, you know,

1408
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:08,320
wasn't.
I know the least least of her

1409
01:29:08,320 --> 01:29:10,960
concerns, right?
She has a good, good grasp on

1410
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:13,120
it.
Right.

1411
01:29:13,440 --> 01:29:15,880
Let let me ask you this about
Eliza R Snow.

1412
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:22,280
Does she ever have children?
No, she does not have children.

1413
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:26,960
And, and there's, there's, I
think there's pretty good

1414
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:29,640
history to back up the fact that
she was gang raped.

1415
01:29:31,000 --> 01:29:34,000
And so I think that left her
unable to have children.

1416
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:37,840
And you know, 'cause when we
talk about, I always say the

1417
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:41,040
part of, of history that's
whitewashed is the part that

1418
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:44,680
that we don't tell of what
really happened when the Saints

1419
01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:50,560
were driven out of Missouri and
we we whitewashed the fact that

1420
01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:52,920
women were raped.
Being raped.

1421
01:29:53,920 --> 01:29:59,800
Children were raped.
Men were raped and and that's

1422
01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:02,120
the part we white Ross.
And so unfortunately, I think

1423
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:07,120
that she experienced that and
was unable to conceive children.

1424
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:12,520
I know there's a story of of
supposedly a light Emma throwing

1425
01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:17,680
her down the stairs that she was
pregnant, but I, I she never

1426
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:19,320
writes about that in her
journal.

1427
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:25,760
So if she doesn't write about
it, I think that either it

1428
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:27,600
didn't happen or she just didn't
want us to know that.

1429
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:33,760
So I, I personally, I don't
propagate that correct story

1430
01:30:34,080 --> 01:30:35,600
because I it doesn't come from
her.

1431
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:38,920
So and I think if anyone, she
should be the one to tell it if

1432
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:40,600
it happened and and she doesn't
tell it.

1433
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:43,960
So I just.
Sure.

1434
01:30:44,400 --> 01:30:45,760
I just don't give that any
credence.

1435
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:50,280
So, but I do also want to point
out that again, there's a lot of

1436
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:53,160
I've heard a lot of excuses that
people make that she was just

1437
01:30:53,160 --> 01:30:56,560
still to Joseph and it wasn't a
marriage, but she does say

1438
01:30:56,720 --> 01:30:59,400
quote, I was still to the
Prophet Joseph Smith for time

1439
01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:03,240
and eternity in accordance with
the celestial law of marriage

1440
01:31:03,560 --> 01:31:07,280
which God had revealed the
ceremony being performed by a

1441
01:31:07,280 --> 01:31:10,640
servant of the most high
authorized to officiate in

1442
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:14,840
sacred ordinances.
This one of the most important

1443
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:18,120
events of my life I have never
caused to regret.

1444
01:31:18,520 --> 01:31:21,800
Wow.
Yep, and she writes of Joseph

1445
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:24,720
Smith saying he's my beloved
husband, the choice of my heart

1446
01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:29,040
and the crown of my life.
I I have another question and

1447
01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:31,360
this is just me wondering
because I haven't been able to

1448
01:31:31,360 --> 01:31:35,320
find anything here.
What's her relationship with

1449
01:31:35,320 --> 01:31:36,880
Brigham like?
Because I know she marries

1450
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:41,640
Brigham later, right?
Do we get an idea of, of what

1451
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:45,520
their, their marital life was
like?

1452
01:31:45,520 --> 01:31:47,240
I mean, were they, were they
close?

1453
01:31:47,240 --> 01:31:49,400
I mean, Brigham had a lot of
wives, right?

1454
01:31:49,400 --> 01:31:54,720
And on some level I almost get
the sense that this is, this is

1455
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:57,800
the way that, that Brigham is
honestly taking care of a lot of

1456
01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:02,080
single women, right?
Do we know what, what their,

1457
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:04,040
what their relationship was like
at all?

1458
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:06,880
Do we have anything from her
journals that give us any

1459
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:09,680
insight there?
Oh, absolutely.

1460
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:12,680
So this is an interesting
dynamic.

1461
01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:18,120
Again, a lot of people like to
make up things about Eliza or

1462
01:32:18,120 --> 01:32:22,000
Snow, but what we do know just
from the writings in Brigham

1463
01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:26,000
Young's I she was married to
Brigham Young, but I don't get

1464
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:31,960
the sense that they were.
It was a conjugal relationship.

1465
01:32:32,480 --> 01:32:35,600
That's what I got too, but I was
curious if you found anything to

1466
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:38,560
the contrary.
So we do know that she lived in

1467
01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:43,440
in the the Lion House.
That's what it was called,

1468
01:32:43,440 --> 01:32:46,360
right?
The Lion House, sorry.

1469
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:51,120
So we do know that she lived in
there, but so she takes an

1470
01:32:51,120 --> 01:32:54,120
interesting role where she's
kind of like a counselor to

1471
01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:57,320
Brigham Young.
So she's kind of like, almost

1472
01:32:57,320 --> 01:33:02,920
like in Brigham Young's
writings, you see how he's like,

1473
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:06,080
OK, we're going to establish the
first Deseret, you know,

1474
01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:08,240
hospital.
But I'm not going to do it

1475
01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:12,200
unless Eliza Arsenault agrees
to, you know, basically be on

1476
01:33:12,200 --> 01:33:14,200
the board.
Interesting.

1477
01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:18,160
Because she is and, and this is
going and I'm going to tell you

1478
01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:21,280
why.
So when we get this is the

1479
01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:22,600
experience I wanted to share
with you.

1480
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:26,480
And I think this is going to
give us a sense of why Because

1481
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:31,880
after the death of Joseph Smith,
she becomes so distraught.

1482
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:36,680
And this actually speaks to her
closeness to Joseph Smith

1483
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:39,160
because she becomes so
distraught that she begins

1484
01:33:39,160 --> 01:33:44,040
praying night and day for God to
like let her die.

1485
01:33:44,480 --> 01:33:46,360
Like she does not want to live
anymore.

1486
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:49,200
He's like, I can't this, I'm in
grief.

1487
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:53,600
I can't live without my husband,
which tells us that they had an

1488
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:55,320
intimate relationship.
They did?

1489
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:57,440
Yep.
I mean, she did live in his

1490
01:33:57,440 --> 01:34:00,600
house for a time.
She was, we know that she did

1491
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:06,920
teach his children.
But so she goes on to say that.

1492
01:34:08,360 --> 01:34:11,520
So then she has a dream and
she's visited by Joseph Smith in

1493
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:15,800
a dream and she said that God
has plans for you.

1494
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:20,320
He said Joseph told her that
this work upon the earth was

1495
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:23,920
that his work upon the earth was
completed as far as the mortal

1496
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:26,720
Tabernacle was concerned, but
hers was not.

1497
01:34:27,320 --> 01:34:32,200
The Lord desired her, and so did
her husband, to live many years

1498
01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:35,200
and to assist in carrying on the
great latter day work which

1499
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:37,360
Joseph had been chosen to
establish.

1500
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:44,360
Yeah.
And so after that, she ever

1501
01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:49,640
since then it, she appears that
she was consoled by that and she

1502
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:54,480
let go of her loneliness and her
bereavement and she resigned her

1503
01:34:54,480 --> 01:34:59,640
life to, to serving God.
And so we see that in her life,

1504
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:03,160
right?
We see that she is, she carries

1505
01:35:03,160 --> 01:35:05,280
on, she carries on the release
society.

1506
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:08,120
She spends her life working in
the endowment house,

1507
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:12,400
administering the endowment.
She's establishes the release

1508
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:14,240
society.
She goes and she travels

1509
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:17,800
throughout the Utah Territory
establishing the Release Society

1510
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:22,480
in the different wards.
She gives up her life for the

1511
01:35:22,480 --> 01:35:24,120
establishment of the work of
God, right?

1512
01:35:24,120 --> 01:35:28,360
So she'd be she completes the
work that Joseph had begun, and

1513
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:32,080
the Release Society was an
important part of the Kingdom.

1514
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:37,240
Yeah, yeah.
No, Look, I know Brigham

1515
01:35:37,320 --> 01:35:41,720
suspended it for a time, right?
And, and for reasons that that

1516
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:47,880
we can get in another time.
But he does reinstitute it and

1517
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:53,000
it does begin to function much
the same way that Joseph Joseph

1518
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:55,480
had.
And there's some interesting

1519
01:35:55,480 --> 01:35:58,320
stuff concerning women in the
priesthood that come out of some

1520
01:35:58,320 --> 01:36:03,080
of those early Utah period
accounts of, of society.

1521
01:36:03,880 --> 01:36:07,520
One last thing I wanted to point
out here that that I just found

1522
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:11,160
absolutely interesting.
And I think it speaks not so

1523
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:14,520
much to to just women, but to
the human condition in general.

1524
01:36:16,080 --> 01:36:20,080
I look at what happens to Eliza
Arsenal in Missouri, right?

1525
01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:26,880
Horrific.
And then I look at someone like

1526
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:32,280
Margaret Sanger, who something
very similar happened to her in

1527
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:37,280
her childhood.
And it's interesting how I think

1528
01:36:37,280 --> 01:36:41,680
we all go through times in our
lives, hopefully never to that

1529
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:43,720
extreme.
Most of us won't today won't

1530
01:36:43,720 --> 01:36:49,400
have to ever think about that.
But when faced with that, it's

1531
01:36:49,640 --> 01:36:52,040
we, we have choices as a human
being, right?

1532
01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:56,880
We can either decide to wallow
in that darkness and that you

1533
01:36:56,880 --> 01:37:00,280
know, look, in the case of
Margaret Sanger, it's still

1534
01:37:01,560 --> 01:37:05,720
happening today.
Thousands of deaths of the most

1535
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:10,800
innocent or Eliza R Snow, who
says I'm going to throw myself

1536
01:37:11,640 --> 01:37:16,120
into the work of God in service
of my my fellow brothers and

1537
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:19,720
sisters.
And, and I find it a very

1538
01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:23,880
fascinating comparison because
they go through similar things,

1539
01:37:24,200 --> 01:37:29,120
but they end up so far apart
and, and what they what they use

1540
01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:31,200
on that.
Wow.

1541
01:37:31,240 --> 01:37:32,560
I didn't.
I didn't know that about

1542
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:34,600
Margaret Singer.
So that yeah, that is.

1543
01:37:34,960 --> 01:37:36,960
Oh, don't, yeah, don't look into
Sanger.

1544
01:37:36,960 --> 01:37:39,640
I did that once and went down
that rabbit hole and that was

1545
01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:41,280
horrific.
Don't, don't do that.

1546
01:37:41,280 --> 01:37:44,600
That's.
Yeah, this a stark contrast for

1547
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:47,800
sure.
And and the thing about Eliza is

1548
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:49,960
I want to point out is like when
you talk, you brought up the

1549
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:53,320
women and the priesthood.
And so Eliza or Snow, what makes

1550
01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:56,200
the Release Society successful
is because she in Nauvoo, she's

1551
01:37:56,200 --> 01:37:57,880
the secretary of the Release
Society.

1552
01:37:57,880 --> 01:38:01,840
So she had kept all the minutes
and she carried those across the

1553
01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:04,880
plains.
And so the only reason we have

1554
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:07,760
the teachings of Joseph Smith to
the release Release Society

1555
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:09,600
today is because of Eliza or
Snow.

1556
01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:14,200
So without Eliza or Snow, there
would be no Release Society.

1557
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:17,440
We would know what Joseph Smith
was teaching the women.

1558
01:38:18,640 --> 01:38:21,800
And, and what's interesting to
me too.

1559
01:38:21,800 --> 01:38:24,760
So we're talking about, you
know, Eliza or Snow's kind of

1560
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:26,200
like a counselor to Brigham
Young.

1561
01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:29,520
She kind of feels that role.
And you see, what you see in

1562
01:38:29,520 --> 01:38:35,000
Eliza's life is that actually
she's humble and she's

1563
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:39,120
submissive and she's obedient to
the righteous counsel of the

1564
01:38:39,120 --> 01:38:42,040
priesthood.
And that is actually how she

1565
01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:48,080
gains her gifts of the Spirit.
And she has.

1566
01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:53,000
So for example, just read a few
excerpts from her journal where

1567
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:59,360
she's she talks about.
So again, she says, let me get

1568
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:02,680
to it.
She says on June 2nd, 1847, I

1569
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:06,040
spent the afternoon with Lucy
and company of Zaina, Louisa and

1570
01:39:06,040 --> 01:39:08,600
Emily.
Emily and myself spoke in the

1571
01:39:08,600 --> 01:39:12,800
gift of tongues on June 3rd of
that year.

1572
01:39:12,800 --> 01:39:15,560
She said Sister Sessions,
Kimball, Whitney and myself

1573
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:19,560
spent the evening at Sarah Ann's
had a powerful time.

1574
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:23,800
Deep things were brought forth
or which were not to be spoken.

1575
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:28,680
Yeah.
To be a family on that wall.

1576
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:32,640
Yeah.
So you see, she is these gifts

1577
01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:36,120
of the Spirit, this, this
priesthood, 'cause she's, she's

1578
01:39:36,120 --> 01:39:38,120
ordained, she has her second
anointing.

1579
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:41,280
She's ordained a priestess,
she's ordained a queen in the

1580
01:39:41,280 --> 01:39:46,160
priestess.
Whereas in the, in the Elias

1581
01:39:46,160 --> 01:39:48,520
Church today we're only ordained
to become such.

1582
01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:52,640
So she, she becomes a priestess
and a prophetess of the

1583
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:55,160
restoration.
And then at another time, she

1584
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:58,360
said on June 6th, she says a
time of blessing at Sister

1585
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:01,040
Kimball's Sister Sessions and
myself, Blessed Helen.

1586
01:40:01,480 --> 01:40:05,840
So here we see them exercising.
The the gift of healing.

1587
01:40:05,840 --> 01:40:07,880
And they're laying their heads
upon the women.

1588
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:10,960
And she said I spoke and she
interpreted.

1589
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:14,480
I then blessed the girls in a
song, singing to each in

1590
01:40:14,480 --> 01:40:21,800
rotation.
So yeah, you know, you see the

1591
01:40:21,800 --> 01:40:23,800
gift of.
Oh, go ahead, finish.

1592
01:40:23,840 --> 01:40:25,840
I'm sorry.
Oh, I was just gonna just say

1593
01:40:25,840 --> 01:40:29,000
the gift of prophecy in tongues
were like, they're very familiar

1594
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:31,480
to these women.
Absolutely.

1595
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:35,720
The other thing that this brings
out, right, 'cause let's face

1596
01:40:35,720 --> 01:40:41,200
it, the favorite whipping boy
of, of stone and that and, and

1597
01:40:41,200 --> 01:40:44,400
those who who align with her is
Brigham Young, right?

1598
01:40:44,400 --> 01:40:47,320
That's who they love to flog
more than anybody else.

1599
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:52,800
But, and, and one of the things
they level is he's so

1600
01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:55,280
misogynistic, right?
That's one of the things I hear

1601
01:40:55,280 --> 01:40:57,560
get tossed around really
frequently.

1602
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:02,560
That's a tough accusation to
make if if he's essentially

1603
01:41:02,560 --> 01:41:06,160
counseling with Eliza R Snow on
things and he's saying, look,

1604
01:41:06,160 --> 01:41:09,000
I'm not I'm, I'm not touching
this hospital project unless

1605
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:12,400
she's on the board, right?
That's not a misogynistic guy.

1606
01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:15,080
I'm sorry.
It's just not that's a guy.

1607
01:41:15,080 --> 01:41:16,520
And and there's other things
there.

1608
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:19,880
And and that's some of those
stories that need to be told,

1609
01:41:19,880 --> 01:41:22,240
right?
Because not only do we get a

1610
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:27,120
sense of just how amazing these
women were and how spiritually

1611
01:41:27,120 --> 01:41:29,840
gifted they were and how
important they are to the

1612
01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:36,600
restoration, but they also, by
their own voice, testify of who

1613
01:41:36,600 --> 01:41:38,560
these early leaders of the
church were.

1614
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:43,040
Yeah.
And I always, I've always said,

1615
01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:45,280
and I always try to help people
understand that under the

1616
01:41:45,480 --> 01:41:48,920
ordained leadership of Brigham
Young, these women flourished.

1617
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:51,440
It wasn't just a Lysar Snow on
the board.

1618
01:41:51,440 --> 01:41:55,360
It was an all women board.
And these women flourished.

1619
01:41:55,360 --> 01:41:58,440
Not only did they have the the
the they start the hospital and

1620
01:41:58,440 --> 01:42:00,600
run it.
Brigham Young is sending women

1621
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:05,560
back east to go to Med school.
I mean, we hear of women

1622
01:42:05,560 --> 01:42:08,720
becoming midwives, but he was
sending them to become doctors.

1623
01:42:08,720 --> 01:42:12,120
He's encouraging women to
become, he's like study

1624
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:14,600
accounting.
You can become better

1625
01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:17,320
businessman than your husband's.
He's encouraging them to go into

1626
01:42:17,320 --> 01:42:22,840
politics.
They Yeah, beats your own

1627
01:42:22,840 --> 01:42:27,760
husband, right?
Yeah, the the, the fallen side

1628
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:31,720
of me wishes I could have heard
what, what her husband, what

1629
01:42:31,720 --> 01:42:34,440
what kind of raft he got from
some of the guys in his ward

1630
01:42:34,760 --> 01:42:36,320
when that when that death
settled.

1631
01:42:36,320 --> 01:42:39,000
But yeah, you're you're a spot
on.

1632
01:42:39,720 --> 01:42:43,560
Yeah, and I, and I do want to
get to the women's exponent

1633
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:45,760
because this is very, very
important.

1634
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:48,800
So the women, they start the the
woman's exponent.

1635
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:52,480
This is a woman's journal, like
in all of Christendom.

1636
01:42:52,480 --> 01:42:55,720
Do you ever hear of a woman
having their own journal, their

1637
01:42:55,720 --> 01:42:59,440
own writings?
And.

1638
01:42:59,440 --> 01:43:06,920
And so you have Elizar Snow as
an editor and Emmeline B Wells.

1639
01:43:07,640 --> 01:43:09,920
And what?
Do you even know why the woman's

1640
01:43:09,920 --> 01:43:12,080
exponent was started?
I don't.

1641
01:43:14,600 --> 01:43:21,200
It was started because of all of
the anti polygamy sediments we

1642
01:43:21,200 --> 01:43:26,480
have.
We have not just the RLDS

1643
01:43:26,480 --> 01:43:29,920
missionaries coming to convince
that they're trying to convert

1644
01:43:29,920 --> 01:43:33,320
members to go back to Nauvoo,
but then you have there were

1645
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:37,760
organizations that were starting
in Utah that from non members

1646
01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:41,560
that were they were jealous of
the Relief Society and they saw

1647
01:43:41,560 --> 01:43:44,240
the influence that women had in
Utah.

1648
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:48,000
And so they tried to start their
own organization to rival the

1649
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:49,720
Relief Society.
And so they started what they

1650
01:43:49,720 --> 01:43:54,480
called this anti polygamy
standard where they, the women

1651
01:43:54,760 --> 01:43:58,360
and these are non Mormon women,
they started collecting these

1652
01:43:58,360 --> 01:44:03,560
anonymous affidavits to slander
Utah polygamist women.

1653
01:44:05,040 --> 01:44:08,320
So it's really fascinating that
they they, they get together and

1654
01:44:08,320 --> 01:44:12,920
they start the women's exponent.
And this was like in 1972 when I

1655
01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:18,400
get the exact date.
So I think it's June 1st or

1656
01:44:18,560 --> 01:44:20,760
sorry, 1872.
I don't know what I said.

1657
01:44:21,080 --> 01:44:23,000
You said it's OK, we knew what
you meant.

1658
01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:26,520
OK, sorry, I'm like.
Oh, you're good, You're good.

1659
01:44:27,160 --> 01:44:31,720
Hey, and I, I'm so fascinated.
So this is just this is what and

1660
01:44:31,720 --> 01:44:35,640
another thing that gets me is
the again, the leading voices in

1661
01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:37,960
the anti polygamy movement do
not talk about the women's

1662
01:44:37,960 --> 01:44:39,640
exponent.
They do not want you to know

1663
01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:43,680
about the women's exponent
because so Helen Mark Kimball,

1664
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:50,000
another per Rifa Joseph Smith,
she now she's I'm not going to

1665
01:44:50,000 --> 01:44:54,240
stand for this.
I am going to use my pan and I'm

1666
01:44:54,240 --> 01:44:58,360
going to use it to to basically
raise my voice.

1667
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:06,240
And so she's in in defense of
poor marriage.

1668
01:45:09,480 --> 01:45:12,320
And so she writes.
This is what she writes.

1669
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:16,360
She says the conflict.
So she's she's speaking about

1670
01:45:16,360 --> 01:45:19,160
all these people that are now
persecuting these polygamous

1671
01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:23,400
women and slandering them and
trying to make them look like,

1672
01:45:23,520 --> 01:45:27,640
you know, they are oppressed and
they're ignorant and they're in

1673
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:30,560
this horrible system of her
marriage.

1674
01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:34,600
And she writes, the conflict is
between them and our God, who

1675
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:38,440
has never forsaken his people.
But he does not expect us to sit

1676
01:45:38,440 --> 01:45:41,320
quietly down and fold their
hands in idleness while our

1677
01:45:41,320 --> 01:45:44,440
enemies are publishing their
outrageous falsehoods.

1678
01:45:44,880 --> 01:45:48,040
To blind the eyes of the week,
incredulous to the most glorious

1679
01:45:48,040 --> 01:45:51,720
truths of heaven, and to throw
ignominy and dishonor upon our

1680
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:55,880
people, as our slanderers are on
the road to perdition, but to

1681
01:45:55,880 --> 01:45:59,560
use every honorable means to
defend ourselves against their

1682
01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:04,560
vile attacks.
I love that fire, that love that

1683
01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:07,120
fire.
I love it so much.

1684
01:46:07,120 --> 01:46:10,200
And so they start the women's
exponent and it's a woman's

1685
01:46:10,200 --> 01:46:12,920
journal.
They this is where the women are

1686
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:14,280
start.
They come out and they're like

1687
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:17,200
I'm publishing my testimony, I'm
publishing my witness.

1688
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:19,800
I was taught pre marriage by
Joseph Smith and I want the

1689
01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:22,920
world to know and they're
publishing this to the world.

1690
01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:26,880
Every week something goes out
from these women.

1691
01:46:27,800 --> 01:46:30,320
And so these aren't women that
are oppressed.

1692
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:34,320
These aren't women that are
being coerced and forced.

1693
01:46:35,960 --> 01:46:39,200
Right, right.
No, they're, look, they're

1694
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:42,160
taking to heart what it says in
the DNC that you should be

1695
01:46:42,160 --> 01:46:45,040
actively engaged in a good
'cause, right?

1696
01:46:45,360 --> 01:46:49,680
And I can imagine that, that I
don't know for certain, you

1697
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:51,640
probably have more information
on that than I do.

1698
01:46:52,480 --> 01:46:55,840
To me, this sounds kind of like
a grassroots movement among

1699
01:46:56,760 --> 01:47:01,640
those group of sisters, right?
And, and let's face it, and,

1700
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:04,400
and, and I've said this for a
while too, right?

1701
01:47:05,360 --> 01:47:13,360
You will never, you will never
catch me trying to tell a, a

1702
01:47:13,360 --> 01:47:16,240
woman how great plural marriage
is because it's kind of a bad

1703
01:47:16,240 --> 01:47:18,880
look, right?
And I'm a dude, right?

1704
01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:21,360
And people are going to be like,
well, of course you're for it,

1705
01:47:21,440 --> 01:47:24,920
right?
There is something more potent

1706
01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:31,280
when women step up to make to
make that that claim.

1707
01:47:31,800 --> 01:47:38,040
It is more potent because it's
their voice, not not the dudes.

1708
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:43,600
Yeah, and it's so interesting
that listening again, I she's

1709
01:47:43,600 --> 01:47:46,760
just the leading voice.
So we've got to call it out

1710
01:47:46,760 --> 01:47:48,760
because she's the leading voice.
Michelle Brady Stone is the

1711
01:47:48,760 --> 01:47:50,680
leading voice against these
women.

1712
01:47:50,680 --> 01:47:55,160
And it's interesting to me that
she uses the anti polygamy

1713
01:47:55,160 --> 01:48:00,480
standard to to basically
convince her audience.

1714
01:48:00,480 --> 01:48:04,480
Look how bad her marriage is.
That anti polygamy standard was

1715
01:48:04,480 --> 01:48:08,520
started by women who weren't
even members of the church and

1716
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:11,440
they were attacking the women in
Utah.

1717
01:48:11,640 --> 01:48:18,080
So again, this is, you know,
like Michelle is all about women

1718
01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:20,800
empowerment.
She's all about feminism.

1719
01:48:21,280 --> 01:48:25,400
And here she is using women who
aren't even her religion.

1720
01:48:25,760 --> 01:48:28,480
There aren't even members of the
church that are are writing

1721
01:48:28,520 --> 01:48:36,240
anonymous affidavits slandering
Utah women and trying to distort

1722
01:48:37,080 --> 01:48:40,200
people's perceptions of of poor
marriage.

1723
01:48:41,280 --> 01:48:45,440
That's what she uses as sources.
And it's just so frustrating.

1724
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:47,840
Instead of going to the women's
exponent saying, well, what did

1725
01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:49,520
the women say to defend
themselves?

1726
01:48:50,360 --> 01:48:52,320
What did they teach in the
women's exponent?

1727
01:48:53,640 --> 01:49:02,000
Yeah, she look in her quest, as
you put it, to, to, to make sure

1728
01:49:02,000 --> 01:49:06,400
that women's empowerment has a
place and, and, and, and in

1729
01:49:06,400 --> 01:49:14,400
Mormonism and feminism and, and
all those other things, she has

1730
01:49:14,400 --> 01:49:19,160
to discredit other women, right.
And to me, that's, that's the

1731
01:49:19,160 --> 01:49:21,320
insane part of the whole thing,
right?

1732
01:49:21,600 --> 01:49:26,040
Is that to get where you want to
go, you've got to step over,

1733
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:30,680
step over women and their
testimonies and what they

1734
01:49:30,680 --> 01:49:34,680
believed was true.
And it just doesn't hold water

1735
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:36,880
and it's despicable on some
level.

1736
01:49:38,680 --> 01:49:41,120
And you know, Dave, I know we're
getting close to two hours, but

1737
01:49:41,120 --> 01:49:43,400
I there's just two things I want
to share.

1738
01:49:43,440 --> 01:49:46,120
Take all the time you need.
I only put two hours down there

1739
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:47,760
'cause I got to put something on
the invite.

1740
01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:49,160
So you take whatever time you
need.

1741
01:49:49,160 --> 01:49:51,600
Kimberly.
OK, because I, I again, I just,

1742
01:49:51,680 --> 01:49:55,320
I want to make sure I again,
this cannot be comprehensive.

1743
01:49:56,120 --> 01:50:00,800
That if, if you know, if, if
anyone's interested in learning

1744
01:50:00,800 --> 01:50:03,080
more about these women, I'm
happy to point them in, in the

1745
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:06,840
right direction and give them,
you know, resources and places

1746
01:50:06,840 --> 01:50:09,680
they can look.
But so there's just two really

1747
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:13,960
important things I again, I want
to hopefully represent tonight.

1748
01:50:14,920 --> 01:50:18,040
So not only the women's
exponent, which I think what is

1749
01:50:18,040 --> 01:50:21,800
a huge source for the women's
testimonies like major like I

1750
01:50:21,800 --> 01:50:28,440
could, I'll just give you one
example of someone who wrote in

1751
01:50:28,440 --> 01:50:34,160
to give her testimony and she's
and her name is Helen M

1752
01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:37,000
Callister.
So she's not even a a women that

1753
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:41,720
you know that is is noteworthy
or you know one of those

1754
01:50:41,720 --> 01:50:44,000
prominent women.
She's just your average latter

1755
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:47,440
day St. who's living her
religion and she writes in and

1756
01:50:47,440 --> 01:50:51,760
she says to raise my voice in
public has ever been a source of

1757
01:50:51,760 --> 01:50:54,080
much embarrassment to my
sensitive nature.

1758
01:50:54,720 --> 01:50:57,560
Indeed, I always feel my
inability to address even my

1759
01:50:57,560 --> 01:51:01,880
sisters in this capacity.
But duty and justice demand that

1760
01:51:01,880 --> 01:51:05,320
my voice should now be heard,
and would that my words of faith

1761
01:51:05,360 --> 01:51:10,320
in defense of my religion might
re echo and find accordance in

1762
01:51:10,320 --> 01:51:13,080
every heart of every true
hearted woman.

1763
01:51:13,880 --> 01:51:16,920
And then she goes on to say, I
know the principle of plur

1764
01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:19,880
marriage to be the truth.
I have lived in polygamy for the

1765
01:51:19,880 --> 01:51:23,760
last 33 years and was among the
first to enter into that sacred

1766
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:28,880
principle.
Yeah.

1767
01:51:30,120 --> 01:51:33,080
I can, I can kind of identify
with that voice, right?

1768
01:51:33,400 --> 01:51:38,040
Not wanting to do it right.
Not your thing, but the times

1769
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:41,320
call for it.
Now you don't get to just stay

1770
01:51:41,320 --> 01:51:43,680
on the sidelines any longer.
Now you got to get in the game.

1771
01:51:44,440 --> 01:51:48,000
Yeah, and that's why I wish in
this discussion we that we would

1772
01:51:48,000 --> 01:51:49,760
let the women speak.
Let them.

1773
01:51:50,560 --> 01:51:52,720
And and so people can actually
decide.

1774
01:51:53,160 --> 01:51:56,440
So if you're going to have a
debate about poor marriage, you

1775
01:51:56,440 --> 01:52:00,560
have Michelle's voice.
Michelle Brady Stone again,

1776
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:03,080
because she's the leading voice.
She's made herself a public

1777
01:52:03,080 --> 01:52:06,080
figure.
She's representing, she claims

1778
01:52:06,080 --> 01:52:09,960
to represent the women, but then
let people hear their voice so

1779
01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:13,720
they can decide which voice
they're going to follow.

1780
01:52:13,960 --> 01:52:16,640
Whose testimony are they going
to believe?

1781
01:52:17,200 --> 01:52:20,800
And I just, so that's just
again, my frustration is that

1782
01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:24,400
not very many people have heard
these testimonies.

1783
01:52:26,840 --> 01:52:32,080
And then something I think is of
of noteworthy to add is that if

1784
01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:34,080
we haven't heard enough of the
women in the great in the

1785
01:52:34,080 --> 01:52:38,640
women's exponent in on January
6th, 1870, do you know what

1786
01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:43,520
happened that on that date?
Enlighten me please.

1787
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:47,560
So there was this mass meeting
of women.

1788
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:54,480
It was called the Great
Indignation Meeting, and 5000

1789
01:52:54,480 --> 01:53:01,640
women Mormon women came to sign
the petition to protest a

1790
01:53:01,640 --> 01:53:05,480
government bill that would make
polygamy in Utah illegal.

1791
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:09,080
Wow, so the women showed up for
it?

1792
01:53:09,640 --> 01:53:15,720
5000 Mormon women lined the
streets of Utah to sign a

1793
01:53:16,120 --> 01:53:20,360
petition to protest a government
bill which was going to make

1794
01:53:20,760 --> 01:53:23,960
polygamy illegal.
If you are oppressed, if

1795
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:30,080
polygamy is such this horrible
system and Brigham Young is a

1796
01:53:30,080 --> 01:53:34,920
tyrant, church leaders or
tyrants, wouldn't you welcome

1797
01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:36,800
this government bill to make it
illegal?

1798
01:53:37,320 --> 01:53:42,160
Yeah, yeah, it's your perfect
out right If you if you are in

1799
01:53:42,160 --> 01:53:47,040
bondage, you don't even have to
take responsibility for being

1800
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:48,840
set free.
You can just be like, sorry,

1801
01:53:48,840 --> 01:53:52,240
dude, not my not not my doing if
I'd say.

1802
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:54,680
But you know, the government
says, you know, we got to be

1803
01:53:54,680 --> 01:53:59,080
done with this instead.
Well, and here's the here's the

1804
01:53:59,120 --> 01:54:00,880
other fascinating thing.
I'm just thinking about the

1805
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:06,280
numbers in 1870, right?
Saints show up in Utah 47.

1806
01:54:06,520 --> 01:54:10,160
So you're you're about 30 years,
right?

1807
01:54:11,800 --> 01:54:15,800
I'm guessing that not even all
the women there are probably in

1808
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:19,280
the principle even, right?
But there are women that

1809
01:54:19,280 --> 01:54:24,760
probably are either aspiring to
or at least the very least want

1810
01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:27,840
to respect their sisters enough
to be like, this is their

1811
01:54:27,840 --> 01:54:29,320
choice.
This is what they want.

1812
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:34,520
I'm here to support them.
It's it's a fascinating moment

1813
01:54:35,040 --> 01:54:39,720
in time where you hear the
women's voice come through in

1814
01:54:39,720 --> 01:54:43,800
defense of this.
Yeah, and what's fascinating,

1815
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:46,680
too.
Again, we're talking about, you

1816
01:54:46,680 --> 01:54:49,080
know, women.
This was a meeting of women.

1817
01:54:49,480 --> 01:54:52,960
And so they hold this, So they
sign this petition and then they

1818
01:54:52,960 --> 01:54:55,600
hold this, what they call the
great indignation meeting.

1819
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:59,920
It was this mass meeting.
So you have again, so the

1820
01:54:59,920 --> 01:55:03,200
federal government is involved.
So you have major press there,

1821
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:06,640
press from, you know, back East
everywhere.

1822
01:55:07,120 --> 01:55:10,640
And they listen to these women
as they gather together.

1823
01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:14,160
And then they, they, they stand
up on over the pulpit and they

1824
01:55:14,160 --> 01:55:19,120
begin to bear witness of their
religious rights, the right to

1825
01:55:19,120 --> 01:55:21,560
practice this principle and then
to bear witness of the

1826
01:55:21,560 --> 01:55:23,920
principle.
And I just wanted to give this

1827
01:55:23,920 --> 01:55:27,480
testimony of this woman.
Her name is, she doesn't give

1828
01:55:27,480 --> 01:55:30,160
her first name.
She's, it's Missus Wilmarth

1829
01:55:30,280 --> 01:55:32,520
East.
So she's going by her husband's

1830
01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:36,920
name, Missus Wilmarth E.
She gets up in this meeting and

1831
01:55:36,920 --> 01:55:41,480
she says, this is what she says.
I am thankful today that I have

1832
01:55:41,480 --> 01:55:45,880
had the privilege of living the
religion of Jesus, our Savior.

1833
01:55:46,280 --> 01:55:49,760
I'm thankful today that I have.
I have the honored privilege of

1834
01:55:49,760 --> 01:55:54,840
being the happy recipient of one
of the greatest principles ever

1835
01:55:54,840 --> 01:55:58,400
revealed to man for his
redemption and exaltation in the

1836
01:55:58,400 --> 01:56:02,160
Kingdom of God, namely plurality
of wives.

1837
01:56:02,760 --> 01:56:06,280
And I am thankful today that I
know God is at the helm and will

1838
01:56:06,280 --> 01:56:11,400
defend His people.
True man.

1839
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:16,720
And it's just passed out.
It's never revisited.

1840
01:56:17,040 --> 01:56:20,920
That kind of passion is never
given It's it's due.

1841
01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:26,480
These women don't ever get their
quite frankly, the recognition

1842
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:30,360
that they deserve right.
Look, it's one thing to do it

1843
01:56:30,360 --> 01:56:32,040
today.
I don't want to lessen that or

1844
01:56:32,040 --> 01:56:34,480
cheapen that at all.
It's a hard way of life.

1845
01:56:36,440 --> 01:56:39,440
Not always right.
I don't want want to seem like

1846
01:56:39,440 --> 01:56:44,760
it's miserable.
I know again, women are free to

1847
01:56:44,800 --> 01:56:50,720
to leave, right, just as the men
are, but they're doing it in a

1848
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:56,240
time when it's brand new, right?
This is the first time in mass

1849
01:56:56,400 --> 01:56:59,600
that this principles attempted
to being lived again.

1850
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:05,160
And they don't even they don't
even have the the gift of

1851
01:57:05,160 --> 01:57:09,040
anonymity at this point, right?
If you live in Utah in the

1852
01:57:09,040 --> 01:57:14,080
1870s, everybody knows right
from San Francisco to New York,

1853
01:57:14,240 --> 01:57:15,640
everybody knows what's
happening.

1854
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:22,280
And it shows an extreme amount
of intestinal fortitude to stand

1855
01:57:22,280 --> 01:57:25,600
up at this time and bear
testimony like that.

1856
01:57:27,280 --> 01:57:32,840
And for, for those you know, in,
in, in the, the polygamy denial

1857
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:38,560
camp to just toss those aside.
It's despicable.

1858
01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:42,200
I and, and quite frankly, and,
and these are my words, not

1859
01:57:42,200 --> 01:57:44,800
yours.
You're kind of a despicable

1860
01:57:44,800 --> 01:57:47,600
human being if you can just toss
this aside.

1861
01:57:48,640 --> 01:57:51,960
Yeah, and toss it aside,
especially given the fact that

1862
01:57:51,960 --> 01:57:57,760
these women made incredible
sacrifices like and Zaina de

1863
01:57:57,800 --> 01:58:01,680
Huntington, she said.
She even mentions, 'cause you're

1864
01:58:01,880 --> 01:58:04,320
like, you said, that there's no
anonymity.

1865
01:58:04,880 --> 01:58:06,440
Anonymity.
Sorry.

1866
01:58:07,520 --> 01:58:08,880
It's right, I struggled with it
too.

1867
01:58:10,160 --> 01:58:13,560
And she said I made a greater
sacrifice than to give my life,

1868
01:58:13,920 --> 01:58:17,720
for I never anticipated again to
be looked upon as an honorable

1869
01:58:17,720 --> 01:58:22,360
woman by those I dearly loved.
How can I compromise conscience

1870
01:58:22,360 --> 01:58:25,160
and lay aside the sure
testimony, the Spirit of God,

1871
01:58:25,160 --> 01:58:31,720
for the glory of this world?
Wow, yeah, someone needs to

1872
01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:33,400
write a book about this.
Right?

1873
01:58:33,400 --> 01:58:38,360
Like just following it.
I mean, the I'm going to say

1874
01:58:38,360 --> 01:58:41,320
something now that that may
it'll get me in some trouble,

1875
01:58:41,320 --> 01:58:43,160
but that's OK.
I'm used to those waters.

1876
01:58:44,400 --> 01:58:47,560
This might really be the first
suffrage movement for women in

1877
01:58:47,560 --> 01:58:50,960
America.
I can't think of another one

1878
01:58:50,960 --> 01:58:54,760
before this.
And this time it's it's a

1879
01:58:54,760 --> 01:58:57,800
movement to just let them
practice their religion and live

1880
01:58:57,800 --> 01:59:02,840
what to the dictates of their
own conscience in a marital

1881
01:59:03,000 --> 01:59:05,600
practice that the rest of the
world the pours.

1882
01:59:06,840 --> 01:59:09,320
Yeah, and what's interesting to
me is that that's what Joseph

1883
01:59:09,320 --> 01:59:12,560
Smith gave his life for.
He he gave his life.

1884
01:59:12,560 --> 01:59:15,560
He wanted everybody to be free
to live their religion.

1885
01:59:17,120 --> 01:59:25,360
And, and now modern Latter Day
Saints are turning on the, the,

1886
01:59:26,480 --> 01:59:30,400
you know, the founders of their
own religion and, and trying to

1887
01:59:31,040 --> 01:59:35,120
defame them and shame them and
bring dishonor upon them for

1888
01:59:35,120 --> 01:59:38,400
living their religion, living
what they, what was their

1889
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:41,720
conscience, what they, they
testify came from God.

1890
01:59:42,520 --> 01:59:46,280
So it's just, it's just
frustrating to me.

1891
01:59:46,280 --> 01:59:47,480
I don't even have the right
words.

1892
01:59:47,480 --> 01:59:51,520
It's, it's heartbreaking.
It it, it actually does bring me

1893
01:59:51,520 --> 01:59:57,760
a lot of sadness, actually.
Did that sadness come from a

1894
01:59:57,760 --> 02:00:01,640
place of just watching the these
women's words and their their

1895
02:00:01,640 --> 02:00:04,240
emotion and their passion just
being tossed aside?

1896
02:00:04,680 --> 02:00:06,560
Is is that where the sadness
comes from?

1897
02:00:07,120 --> 02:00:12,760
Because I, I'm, I feel like, you
know, I, I was born in the

1898
02:00:12,760 --> 02:00:17,160
church, but you know, I didn't,
I, I guess I, I feel like I'm,

1899
02:00:17,280 --> 02:00:21,400
I'm in a position where I was
born kind of in a, in a family

1900
02:00:21,400 --> 02:00:24,400
that was inactive.
And, you know, I come from a

1901
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:26,080
broken home.
I had divorced parents.

1902
02:00:26,080 --> 02:00:31,760
I lost my mother at a young age.
And, and so I wanted the gospel.

1903
02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:34,680
You know, I was looking for that
eternal family.

1904
02:00:34,880 --> 02:00:38,920
I was looking for, like it said,
what these women sacrificed for.

1905
02:00:38,920 --> 02:00:41,800
I wanted the power and the
authority and I wanted the

1906
02:00:41,800 --> 02:00:46,000
eternal families and I, and so I
fought really hard for it.

1907
02:00:46,000 --> 02:00:49,760
I, I fought to, you know, gain
my testimony.

1908
02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:53,240
I fought to, to try to live the
gospel the best I could so I

1909
02:00:53,240 --> 02:00:56,640
could marry in the temple.
And, and then I see all of

1910
02:00:56,640 --> 02:00:59,880
these, you know, Latter Day
Saints not only born in the

1911
02:00:59,880 --> 02:01:02,400
covenant, but are literal
descendants of these men and

1912
02:01:02,400 --> 02:01:04,600
women.
There's Brigham Young

1913
02:01:04,600 --> 02:01:06,160
descendants that are turning on
him.

1914
02:01:06,160 --> 02:01:10,000
There's, you know, John Taylor
descendants that are saying,

1915
02:01:10,400 --> 02:01:13,200
I'll, I'm ashamed of my ancestor
for living plural marriage.

1916
02:01:13,200 --> 02:01:17,440
And they're, and they, because I
feel like I was blessed with

1917
02:01:17,440 --> 02:01:21,120
this gospel and this covenant
because they made that

1918
02:01:21,120 --> 02:01:23,320
sacrifice.
How can I turn on them?

1919
02:01:23,320 --> 02:01:27,360
And so it brings me sadness to
see these Latter Day Saints not

1920
02:01:27,360 --> 02:01:32,480
value what they have and and the
heritage they're part of.

1921
02:01:34,640 --> 02:01:37,720
I'm, I'm right there with you as
a first generation Mormon ever.

1922
02:01:38,000 --> 02:01:41,640
There's times I just watched the
one where there was a descendant

1923
02:01:41,640 --> 02:01:45,360
of Brigham Young who was, you
know, really coming hard after,

1924
02:01:46,280 --> 02:01:49,720
after him.
And I'm like, if you don't like

1925
02:01:49,720 --> 02:01:51,960
your place in that family, can I
have it 'cause I'd kind of

1926
02:01:51,960 --> 02:01:56,240
killed for, you know, to go back
a ways in, in the restored

1927
02:01:56,240 --> 02:02:00,640
gospel, right.
It is sad and it it's quite

1928
02:02:00,640 --> 02:02:05,600
frankly on par with what we're
dealing with today, right?

1929
02:02:06,360 --> 02:02:15,760
It is a an unhinging of of good
history, true history, and a an

1930
02:02:15,760 --> 02:02:20,800
embracing of lies and falsehoods
and all things that are fake.

1931
02:02:22,600 --> 02:02:25,000
And and it's exact is exactly
right.

1932
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:29,000
So I'm just like, what does for
example, what does Michelle

1933
02:02:29,000 --> 02:02:33,560
Brady Stone have to offer you is
like, so these women, I feel

1934
02:02:33,560 --> 02:02:36,640
like we through these women,
we've inherited this covenant.

1935
02:02:37,880 --> 02:02:40,200
What do you inherit from
Michelle Bruce?

1936
02:02:40,560 --> 02:02:45,000
Like what does she offer you?
Like instead of Mormonism, what

1937
02:02:45,000 --> 02:02:49,280
what do you get?
What what covenant do you get?

1938
02:02:50,760 --> 02:02:53,560
What priesthood do you get?
Like what?

1939
02:02:53,560 --> 02:02:56,600
At the end of the day, what is
she offering you?

1940
02:02:58,000 --> 02:03:03,960
Absolutely, absolutely.
And and here here's I lately

1941
02:03:03,960 --> 02:03:07,640
I've been studying a lot on
unintended consequences, right.

1942
02:03:09,160 --> 02:03:13,680
I look back at at World War One,
you know, they, they just

1943
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:20,440
decimate Germany with, with
sanctions for the First World

1944
02:03:20,440 --> 02:03:22,400
War.
Well, what's the unintended

1945
02:03:22,400 --> 02:03:24,480
consequence of that?
Well, eventually you cause

1946
02:03:24,480 --> 02:03:28,760
hunger in Germany, which leads
to a guy being able to stand up

1947
02:03:28,760 --> 02:03:31,880
and say follow me, and that
leads to the Holocaust.

1948
02:03:32,080 --> 02:03:34,280
OK, that's an unintended
consequence.

1949
02:03:34,760 --> 02:03:38,200
Let's just game plan this out,
right?

1950
02:03:38,400 --> 02:03:42,480
What are the unintended
consequences of espousing what

1951
02:03:42,480 --> 02:03:45,880
Michelle Brady Stone is selling?
It's this.

1952
02:03:47,880 --> 02:03:50,440
You want to get rid of plural
marriage, That's fine.

1953
02:03:50,720 --> 02:03:53,400
But in order to do it, you got
to get rid of 132.

1954
02:03:53,800 --> 02:03:57,400
You get rid of 132, what's the
unintended consequence?

1955
02:03:57,400 --> 02:04:00,440
You get rid of eternal families,
period, right?

1956
02:04:00,520 --> 02:04:05,520
That's not a thing anymore
because the same revelation that

1957
02:04:05,840 --> 02:04:09,160
outlines plural marriage is also
the same revelation that

1958
02:04:09,160 --> 02:04:13,280
outlines eternal families
ceilings.

1959
02:04:15,080 --> 02:04:19,040
And once you take that away,
what do you got left?

1960
02:04:19,200 --> 02:04:23,000
Well, and and please, for those
who are the Protestant faith

1961
02:04:23,000 --> 02:04:25,440
that listen, don't take this as
a slam because I don't mean it

1962
02:04:25,440 --> 02:04:27,800
to be.
But what you're left with is

1963
02:04:27,800 --> 02:04:30,960
you're left with Protestantism,
with some really cool buildings

1964
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:34,120
and and an additional book of
scripture.

1965
02:04:34,240 --> 02:04:40,600
That's what you've got, the
mysteries of godliness that can

1966
02:04:40,600 --> 02:04:44,400
be revealed outside the temple.
You know, I love the Book of

1967
02:04:44,400 --> 02:04:46,360
Mormon.
I do, I value that book.

1968
02:04:46,360 --> 02:04:50,240
I read that book daily.
But if you're looking for the

1969
02:04:50,240 --> 02:04:52,920
mysteries of godliness and
scripture outside the temple,

1970
02:04:52,920 --> 02:04:55,720
that's only found in the
Doctrine and Covenants and

1971
02:04:56,160 --> 02:05:00,440
especially once you get to the
to the Nauvoo period, right, and

1972
02:05:00,440 --> 02:05:01,840
all the writings of Joseph
Smith.

1973
02:05:02,200 --> 02:05:05,360
So if you want to detach from
that, understand there's

1974
02:05:05,360 --> 02:05:08,320
consequences to be had in doing
that.

1975
02:05:08,960 --> 02:05:13,720
You will get rid and you will
gut out of Mormonism anything

1976
02:05:14,920 --> 02:05:20,560
uniquely Mormon and you will be
left with Protestantism with a

1977
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:24,000
really cool book and some really
extravagant buildings.

1978
02:05:24,000 --> 02:05:28,040
So what you got?
No power, no authority, no

1979
02:05:28,040 --> 02:05:31,880
priesthood.
So we know in the Bible that

1980
02:05:31,920 --> 02:05:34,560
Jesus Christ said I am the vine
and you are the branches.

1981
02:05:35,000 --> 02:05:38,440
And then, you know, he talks
about, he's explaining that

1982
02:05:38,440 --> 02:05:40,720
relationship between himself and
his followers.

1983
02:05:41,800 --> 02:05:44,760
And he's basically saying that,
you know, if you remain in me

1984
02:05:44,760 --> 02:05:46,520
and I in you, you will bear much
fruit.

1985
02:05:47,000 --> 02:05:49,480
But then he says, if you do not
remain in me, you are like a

1986
02:05:49,480 --> 02:05:52,440
branch that is thrown away and
Withers, right?

1987
02:05:53,000 --> 02:05:58,200
And and I really, if we can
just, we can end on this high

1988
02:05:58,200 --> 02:06:02,480
note because Eliza Snow, she
writes this poem called The

1989
02:06:02,480 --> 02:06:08,080
Tree, the Tree of Life.
Can I 'cause I got just two

1990
02:06:08,080 --> 02:06:10,400
questions I want to ask you
before we wrap up.

1991
02:06:11,000 --> 02:06:13,400
And then, and then I want to
hear, hear that poem.

1992
02:06:13,400 --> 02:06:16,920
But first, I, I want, I, I need
to ask these two questions.

1993
02:06:17,920 --> 02:06:24,360
One, why haven't we ever read
about these women, these early

1994
02:06:24,360 --> 02:06:29,040
women in Mormonism, right?
Why is it that they have not

1995
02:06:29,040 --> 02:06:32,360
been featured more prominently
within Mormon circles?

1996
02:06:32,360 --> 02:06:34,920
And I'm not just pointing at the
LDS Church, I'm pointing in

1997
02:06:34,920 --> 02:06:38,960
general at at all expressions of
the Restoration.

1998
02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:41,240
Why are we not hearing this
more?

1999
02:06:42,520 --> 02:06:46,240
That is a good question.
And it that is my frustration,

2000
02:06:46,240 --> 02:06:51,120
to be honest.
Like I know that a year ago or

2001
02:06:51,120 --> 02:06:55,120
whatever you had Hannah Stoddard
on your podcast talking about

2002
02:06:55,120 --> 02:06:59,160
the Helen Mark Kimball book.
And I think that was the reason

2003
02:06:59,160 --> 02:07:02,160
why, you know, she started out
wanting to write about these

2004
02:07:02,160 --> 02:07:06,520
women is because we women need
heroes.

2005
02:07:07,680 --> 02:07:11,040
We have a lot of scriptural
examples, you know, of men.

2006
02:07:11,040 --> 02:07:17,240
And I'm by no means a, a
feminist, so I'm not saying that

2007
02:07:17,240 --> 02:07:18,960
that's bad.
I'm just saying, but women need

2008
02:07:18,960 --> 02:07:23,000
heroes.
Women need a good examples of

2009
02:07:23,000 --> 02:07:26,520
what true womanhood look like.
What true what what does it mean

2010
02:07:26,520 --> 02:07:30,920
to be a mother in Zion?
And, and, and so I don't know

2011
02:07:30,920 --> 02:07:34,560
what we need these.
We need to tell the stories of

2012
02:07:34,560 --> 02:07:38,240
these women because they forged
the path for us.

2013
02:07:39,960 --> 02:07:42,560
Right.
They laid the foundation of the

2014
02:07:42,560 --> 02:07:46,000
Kingdom of God, and without
them, they're for women.

2015
02:07:46,000 --> 02:07:50,280
There is no Kingdom.
Without them, there's no Kingdom

2016
02:07:50,280 --> 02:07:54,880
for a man.
Just that's that's what it is.

2017
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:59,640
We look that's we can't dudes
can't get there by themselves,

2018
02:07:59,960 --> 02:08:02,120
right?
Women can't get by themselves

2019
02:08:02,240 --> 02:08:05,920
right.
You want to quote equalize the

2020
02:08:05,920 --> 02:08:08,120
sexes.
Welcome to Mormonism.

2021
02:08:08,120 --> 02:08:12,720
We've been doing it for a while,
even with icky plural marriage

2022
02:08:12,880 --> 02:08:15,240
as some people like to look at
it right.

2023
02:08:15,520 --> 02:08:18,480
It's an It's absolutely an
equalization.

2024
02:08:19,480 --> 02:08:23,760
Neither, neither gender, and
news flash area really is only

2025
02:08:23,760 --> 02:08:26,160
two.
Neither gender can get to where

2026
02:08:26,160 --> 02:08:29,240
they want to go without each
other.

2027
02:08:29,520 --> 02:08:31,560
Period.
Exactly.

2028
02:08:32,600 --> 02:08:35,000
I mean that that's the capstone
of the of the Restoration,

2029
02:08:35,000 --> 02:08:37,920
right, Is the eternal marriage,
joining of the sexes.

2030
02:08:37,920 --> 02:08:41,000
So and that's the Kingdom.
Yep.

2031
02:08:41,120 --> 02:08:43,480
A a man cannot attain the
fullness of the priesthood

2032
02:08:43,480 --> 02:08:46,600
without the woman.
And then the woman with the man,

2033
02:08:46,600 --> 02:08:48,440
she obtains the fullness of the
priesthood.

2034
02:08:48,440 --> 02:08:53,600
She becomes a queen and a
priestess in, in the fullness of

2035
02:08:53,600 --> 02:08:57,600
the priesthood in God's Kingdom.
She is a queen and a priestess

2036
02:08:58,040 --> 02:08:59,960
to rule and reign over the House
of Israel.

2037
02:09:00,960 --> 02:09:06,160
And so without, without any.
Yeah, I, I would love it if

2038
02:09:06,160 --> 02:09:10,240
there's, if you, there's some
talented men or women out there,

2039
02:09:10,240 --> 02:09:15,520
preferably women that want to
take this project down and study

2040
02:09:15,520 --> 02:09:17,520
the life of one of these women
and write a book about her.

2041
02:09:17,520 --> 02:09:23,120
I think that would just, we need
that actually, we, we need the,

2042
02:09:23,120 --> 02:09:26,080
these women need women need
women.

2043
02:09:26,080 --> 02:09:30,320
And I, and I believe that with
all my heart, I as a woman

2044
02:09:30,320 --> 02:09:35,520
myself, I, it just, I, there's
no one for me to look to in

2045
02:09:35,520 --> 02:09:39,120
modern society that I can say
this is what a godly woman looks

2046
02:09:39,120 --> 02:09:41,680
like.
This is what a holy woman looks

2047
02:09:41,680 --> 02:09:45,640
like that I want to be like her.
But we have those examples and

2048
02:09:45,640 --> 02:09:49,760
we need, so they need to be
lifted up so we can see them and

2049
02:09:49,760 --> 02:09:54,120
we can learn from them.
Yeah.

2050
02:09:55,040 --> 02:09:59,680
So I I do love that in the early
days of the church when these

2051
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:02,880
women were entered into these
covenants and they were given

2052
02:10:02,880 --> 02:10:07,480
their patriarchal blessings, I
was just going to be one of the

2053
02:10:07,480 --> 02:10:15,600
women were told, she said.
One of the women was told, Thou

2054
02:10:15,600 --> 02:10:18,200
shalt be numbered among the
mothers in Israel, for thou

2055
02:10:18,200 --> 02:10:21,960
shalt have knowledge by which
thou shalt teach the daughters

2056
02:10:21,960 --> 02:10:24,240
of Zion how to live.
Wow.

2057
02:10:25,320 --> 02:10:29,280
Yeah.
So you know the these are the

2058
02:10:29,280 --> 02:10:31,960
examples.
These are when we think of the

2059
02:10:31,960 --> 02:10:35,560
Millennium and who's going to
reign in the Millennium, Who is

2060
02:10:35,560 --> 02:10:37,920
going to going to be by Joseph
Smith's side.

2061
02:10:38,440 --> 02:10:40,680
His wives.
His wives.

2062
02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:44,400
And so at some point or another,
you're going to have to, if you

2063
02:10:44,400 --> 02:10:47,400
want to be in Zion, you have to
accept the fact that Joseph

2064
02:10:47,400 --> 02:10:49,560
Smith is going to be there with
his wives.

2065
02:10:50,480 --> 02:10:51,880
Right.
Absolutely.

2066
02:10:52,800 --> 02:10:55,920
And, and then he'll be having
children with these wives, with

2067
02:10:55,920 --> 02:10:57,280
these women.
And you're going to have to

2068
02:10:57,280 --> 02:11:02,040
accept the fact that that it's,
you know, these other women

2069
02:11:02,040 --> 02:11:03,680
having children with Joseph
Smith.

2070
02:11:04,040 --> 02:11:05,840
That it's a fully functional
marriage.

2071
02:11:07,360 --> 02:11:10,440
Yep, absolutely.
OK, let me ask you this

2072
02:11:10,440 --> 02:11:14,360
question, and this one's a
little more personal, but as you

2073
02:11:14,720 --> 02:11:19,320
'cause you, you come in from a
place as, as you noted that you

2074
02:11:19,320 --> 02:11:24,120
weren't, weren't necessarily
your, your family may have been

2075
02:11:24,120 --> 02:11:26,840
Mormon by birth, but you guys
weren't necessarily practicing,

2076
02:11:27,000 --> 02:11:30,960
right?
Did you ever struggle with the

2077
02:11:30,960 --> 02:11:33,360
polygamy thing?
Did you ever look at it and, and

2078
02:11:33,360 --> 02:11:36,240
kind of wither and say, oh man,
that's that's rough.

2079
02:11:36,240 --> 02:11:43,680
I don't want to look at that.
So I really apologize.

2080
02:11:43,680 --> 02:11:48,560
I know that some women might not
like my answer, OK, but I'm just

2081
02:11:48,560 --> 02:11:50,360
going to be honest.
OK.

2082
02:11:51,080 --> 02:11:59,520
So I again, because I feel like
I had to fight basically for a

2083
02:11:59,520 --> 02:12:04,800
testimony and I had to search it
out because I wasn't being, it

2084
02:12:04,800 --> 02:12:08,000
wasn't like I was being handed
the gospel at at home.

2085
02:12:09,000 --> 02:12:13,240
And so I wanted to know
everything about my religion.

2086
02:12:13,840 --> 02:12:17,640
So I studied early on, like in
high school.

2087
02:12:17,640 --> 02:12:20,760
I'm just, I read the history of
the church.

2088
02:12:22,240 --> 02:12:25,720
I I read the scriptures, I read
doctrine comments 132 and that

2089
02:12:25,720 --> 02:12:31,120
actually became my favorite
scripture and so in but in my

2090
02:12:31,120 --> 02:12:35,360
mind I'm like, OK, that
happened.

2091
02:12:35,680 --> 02:12:39,280
There was a reason for it.
The church doesn't live it now,

2092
02:12:39,280 --> 02:12:40,440
so I don't have to worry about
it.

2093
02:12:40,840 --> 02:12:42,520
And then I just left it alone
and I did.

2094
02:12:42,520 --> 02:12:44,360
It didn't bother me.
OK.

2095
02:12:45,400 --> 02:12:52,440
Until about 2000, I want to say
12 between about the years 2012

2096
02:12:52,440 --> 02:12:57,000
and 2015, I had a really,
really, really strong prompting

2097
02:12:57,000 --> 02:13:01,480
and impression from the Spirit
that if I wanted a strong and

2098
02:13:01,480 --> 02:13:06,960
lasting testimony of the gospel
of the Restoration, I needed to

2099
02:13:06,960 --> 02:13:13,520
have a testimony of every single
revelation that came through the

2100
02:13:13,520 --> 02:13:20,120
Joseph through Joseph Smith.
And so I knew that I had to gain

2101
02:13:20,120 --> 02:13:27,280
a testimony for myself that poor
marriage was true, that it was a

2102
02:13:27,280 --> 02:13:30,200
revelation that came from God.
I didn't just have like a, a

2103
02:13:30,720 --> 02:13:34,040
knowledge that happened right?
I before it was just like, yeah,

2104
02:13:34,040 --> 02:13:35,960
I know that it happened
historically.

2105
02:13:38,000 --> 02:13:40,080
I had to gain that witness for
myself.

2106
02:13:41,080 --> 02:13:45,080
Gotcha.
And oh, sorry, go ahead, finish.

2107
02:13:45,800 --> 02:13:48,400
No, go ahead.
Did it scare you when when you

2108
02:13:48,400 --> 02:13:53,200
got that prompting?
Did you ever feel in bondage to

2109
02:13:53,200 --> 02:13:55,920
that fear?
I I wasn't scared.

2110
02:13:55,920 --> 02:13:59,480
I was just wondering.
I'm like, OK, so it and and it

2111
02:13:59,680 --> 02:14:05,240
turned out to a little bit be
prophetic, right, Because I had

2112
02:14:05,240 --> 02:14:09,040
no idea what was coming down the
Pike.

2113
02:14:09,040 --> 02:14:13,320
What was coming.
An attack on poor marriage.

2114
02:14:15,040 --> 02:14:18,280
Our marriage is being used as a,
as a, like I've said it before,

2115
02:14:18,600 --> 02:14:21,400
a theological weapon against the
church.

2116
02:14:21,680 --> 02:14:24,840
It's being used as a theological
weapon against the Restoration,

2117
02:14:25,720 --> 02:14:29,600
against the character of Brigham
Young and John Taylor.

2118
02:14:30,640 --> 02:14:34,720
And had I not gained that
testimony when I did and

2119
02:14:34,720 --> 02:14:38,440
listened to that prompting, I
might be a polygamy denier right

2120
02:14:38,440 --> 02:14:41,400
now.
Right, right.

2121
02:14:42,080 --> 02:14:45,040
And and I feel like it was a
blessing and so I wasn't afraid

2122
02:14:45,040 --> 02:14:47,600
of it.
And and The thing is, again,

2123
02:14:47,600 --> 02:14:50,480
what happens when you gain a
testimony, when you gain a

2124
02:14:50,480 --> 02:14:55,200
witness by the spirit, I can
testify like these women, it

2125
02:14:55,200 --> 02:15:01,480
brings you peace.
God helps you to understand it.

2126
02:15:01,480 --> 02:15:04,720
That it that when you have
knowledge, you have power.

2127
02:15:04,720 --> 02:15:11,000
You have it brings peace and joy
And and I'm not a like again,

2128
02:15:11,000 --> 02:15:14,720
I'm a mainstream member.
I, I have, I live in monogamy.

2129
02:15:14,720 --> 02:15:18,200
I'm not saying I'm looking
forward to living polygamy.

2130
02:15:18,200 --> 02:15:20,920
I'm not saying I, well, I can't
wait to die and go to the

2131
02:15:20,920 --> 02:15:22,720
special Kingdom and have and
live polygamy.

2132
02:15:22,720 --> 02:15:26,360
I'm not, you know, I'm not
saying that at all.

2133
02:15:26,720 --> 02:15:31,000
What I'm saying is, is that
having an understanding that

2134
02:15:31,000 --> 02:15:35,000
this revelation came from God
and that the men and women of

2135
02:15:35,000 --> 02:15:39,360
the Restoration were men and
women of honor and integrity and

2136
02:15:39,360 --> 02:15:43,560
live the commandments, and we're
obedient to every word that

2137
02:15:43,560 --> 02:15:47,640
proceeded out of the word, the
mouth of God, that gave me hope.

2138
02:15:48,480 --> 02:15:51,680
OK.
It cemented my testimony that

2139
02:15:51,680 --> 02:15:55,960
the restoration it is the
foundation of the Kingdom of God

2140
02:15:55,960 --> 02:15:58,560
and it's solid.
Right.

2141
02:15:59,760 --> 02:16:03,800
Absolutely.
And and that's, that's what I

2142
02:16:03,800 --> 02:16:08,240
think the big take away should
be on this right, is that don't

2143
02:16:08,240 --> 02:16:12,840
trade one form of bondage, that
of being scared of of the

2144
02:16:12,840 --> 02:16:19,240
doctrine for another form of
bondage, which is being ensnared

2145
02:16:19,240 --> 02:16:23,960
in something that's blatantly
false, that's peddled by people

2146
02:16:23,960 --> 02:16:29,680
such as Michelle Brady Stone.
But rather wrestle with the

2147
02:16:29,680 --> 02:16:33,040
truth.
Wrestle with the truth, because

2148
02:16:33,040 --> 02:16:37,040
you, you will start by wrestling
and then at some point you will

2149
02:16:37,040 --> 02:16:42,200
embrace it, right?
What starts out as a tussle will

2150
02:16:42,200 --> 02:16:45,080
end up in as an embrace.
But you got to put in the work,

2151
02:16:45,200 --> 02:16:47,120
right?
Just like he talked about, you

2152
02:16:47,120 --> 02:16:50,840
got to put the work in.
If you don't, if you do and you

2153
02:16:50,840 --> 02:16:53,160
still walk away from it.
Hey, I get it.

2154
02:16:53,160 --> 02:16:57,840
It's rough and and I, I don't
bear judgement on anybody, man

2155
02:16:57,840 --> 02:17:00,240
or woman who who shies away from
it.

2156
02:17:00,280 --> 02:17:05,160
It, it can be, it can be rough
to think about and, and it's I

2157
02:17:05,160 --> 02:17:08,559
get it, I understand it, but it
doesn't mean it's not true.

2158
02:17:09,520 --> 02:17:13,600
And just cause something
challenges us doesn't mean it's

2159
02:17:13,600 --> 02:17:16,160
not true.
So.

2160
02:17:16,480 --> 02:17:17,959
Right.
And I've, I've tried to just

2161
02:17:17,959 --> 02:17:21,520
share that with women that just
having the knowledge that it it

2162
02:17:21,520 --> 02:17:23,879
came from God.
Does that mean that you have to

2163
02:17:23,879 --> 02:17:26,520
live?
It doesn't mean that God is then

2164
02:17:26,520 --> 02:17:28,680
going to turn around and say now
you have to live this.

2165
02:17:28,719 --> 02:17:31,200
It just means that then you have
knowledge.

2166
02:17:32,080 --> 02:17:35,520
Again, knowledge is power.
That the Restoration is actually

2167
02:17:35,520 --> 02:17:40,559
true, the Brigham Young is
actually a prophet of God, that

2168
02:17:40,559 --> 02:17:42,639
John Taylor is actually a
prophet of God.

2169
02:17:42,639 --> 02:17:47,200
That these women were actually
wholly consecrated women who

2170
02:17:47,200 --> 02:17:52,400
loved the Lord, and they
sacrificed everything to lay the

2171
02:17:52,400 --> 02:17:54,520
foundation of the Kingdom of
God.

2172
02:17:54,600 --> 02:18:01,000
And from them we inherit the
covenant.

2173
02:18:01,959 --> 02:18:04,040
We.
Inherit this covenant that we

2174
02:18:04,040 --> 02:18:06,799
need that we have to have in
order to be saved.

2175
02:18:08,080 --> 02:18:11,719
Absolutely.
All right, those, those were my

2176
02:18:11,719 --> 02:18:15,120
two questions.
Let's go ahead and go to that

2177
02:18:15,120 --> 02:18:17,559
poem, 'cause I, it's I.
If it's the one I'm thinking of,

2178
02:18:17,799 --> 02:18:20,320
it'll be a great place to to
wrap this all up.

2179
02:18:21,000 --> 02:18:22,600
Yeah.
And and I do want to wrap it up

2180
02:18:22,600 --> 02:18:26,400
with this because again, Elizar
Snow, she's the prophetess of

2181
02:18:26,400 --> 02:18:29,320
the Restoration.
She's actually was set apart by

2182
02:18:29,320 --> 02:18:31,959
Joseph Smith in Nauvoo to be
Zion's poetess.

2183
02:18:33,040 --> 02:18:36,920
And so through her poetry, this
is where she reveals the

2184
02:18:36,920 --> 02:18:41,360
doctrine.
So this poem, I think, is so

2185
02:18:41,360 --> 02:18:44,639
profound.
And again, it ties in to what

2186
02:18:44,719 --> 02:18:48,000
Jesus taught about you were the
I am the vine and you were the

2187
02:18:48,000 --> 02:18:51,440
branches.
So she's it's called the tree of

2188
02:18:51,440 --> 02:18:53,360
life.
And so she says the tree of

2189
02:18:53,360 --> 02:18:59,280
life's an emblem, one that shows
the principle on which existence

2190
02:18:59,280 --> 02:19:04,760
flows the trunk, the center
issuing from the root from which

2191
02:19:04,760 --> 02:19:11,280
12 branches bear twelve kinds of
fruit, the root, the spring, the

2192
02:19:11,280 --> 02:19:14,680
fountain or the head from which
the Spirit, life, light,

2193
02:19:14,680 --> 02:19:19,240
knowledge spread will and to him
the eternal God compare

2194
02:19:19,920 --> 02:19:22,480
diffusing life and blessings
everywhere.

2195
02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:27,240
The trump to Christ who is
living, who is the living vine

2196
02:19:27,600 --> 02:19:34,400
to whom as branches his apostles
join, partake his Spirit and and

2197
02:19:34,400 --> 02:19:38,520
the fruit they bear is through
their lineage scattered here and

2198
02:19:38,520 --> 02:19:43,520
there.
So this is the this is just the

2199
02:19:43,520 --> 02:19:46,000
first part.
So again, she's comparing right?

2200
02:19:46,000 --> 02:19:50,560
She's saying this tree is Christ
and these branches are what his

2201
02:19:50,560 --> 02:19:54,800
12 apostles.
So again, it's what he's saying.

2202
02:19:54,800 --> 02:19:56,160
I'm the vine, you are the
branches.

2203
02:19:56,160 --> 02:19:58,720
If you cut yourself off, you're
going to wither and die.

2204
02:19:59,600 --> 02:20:02,400
If you.
Stay in this trunk with and

2205
02:20:02,400 --> 02:20:07,560
again with the 12 apostles
anciently and in the

2206
02:20:07,560 --> 02:20:11,960
restoration, right?
You stay, you're part of this

2207
02:20:11,960 --> 02:20:16,720
tree, this vine, and you partake
of spirit, life, light

2208
02:20:16,720 --> 02:20:19,040
knowledge, right?
Then she goes on.

2209
02:20:19,360 --> 02:20:22,040
This is the part I think, I just
think it's so beautiful.

2210
02:20:22,680 --> 02:20:25,680
So she gets, she goes on, and
she says again, We'll thus

2211
02:20:25,680 --> 02:20:31,840
compare the tree of life, the
trunk husband, every branch a

2212
02:20:31,840 --> 02:20:40,240
wife grafted in him the fruit
posterity partaking life and

2213
02:20:40,240 --> 02:20:46,400
fatness from the tree, the
leaves, the holy priesthood that

2214
02:20:46,400 --> 02:20:52,640
will rest upon that fruit by
lineal behest and through the

2215
02:20:52,640 --> 02:20:56,920
perfect laws of purity, will for
the healing of the nations be.

2216
02:20:58,600 --> 02:21:02,160
And thus will Joseph Brigham,
Heber 2, and many more that

2217
02:21:02,160 --> 02:21:07,040
practice as they do, as stems,
as trunks, as heads, as centers,

2218
02:21:07,320 --> 02:21:11,920
stand and spread their righteous
branches over the land, through

2219
02:21:11,920 --> 02:21:16,160
limb to limb be grafted on,
until the spreading boughs shall

2220
02:21:16,160 --> 02:21:20,320
all the garden feel.
However far the utmost limbs

2221
02:21:20,320 --> 02:21:24,840
extend the trunk, it SAP through
every fiber sins.

2222
02:21:25,760 --> 02:21:28,920
Wow.
Oh, and then sorry, there was

2223
02:21:28,920 --> 02:21:30,840
one more part.
She says Christ is the holy

2224
02:21:30,840 --> 02:21:34,840
branch from Jesse's root.
Twas said that that from his

2225
02:21:34,840 --> 02:21:38,760
roots a stem would shoot.
From that same stem, the Saviors

2226
02:21:38,760 --> 02:21:42,600
will come forth on Mount and
Zion's mount to sanctify the

2227
02:21:42,640 --> 02:21:45,840
earth.
Oh, illusions to temple work as

2228
02:21:45,840 --> 02:21:49,360
well.
Oh, there, there's, there's a

2229
02:21:49,360 --> 02:21:51,840
lot there that is absolutely
beautiful.

2230
02:21:52,200 --> 02:21:55,680
And the fact that she couples
that with just stay true to the

2231
02:21:55,680 --> 02:22:04,200
gospel, but also understand what
a how big of a role plural,

2232
02:22:04,200 --> 02:22:08,120
celestial plural marriage plays
in this, right?

2233
02:22:08,120 --> 02:22:10,280
She goes on.
And, and I think it's a

2234
02:22:10,280 --> 02:22:13,920
beautiful allegory where she
talks about, you know, the, the,

2235
02:22:14,400 --> 02:22:17,640
the, the wives being grafted
with the husbands and the

2236
02:22:17,640 --> 02:22:22,160
posterity being the fruit and
the priesthood being the leaves

2237
02:22:22,160 --> 02:22:24,560
and, and leaves kind of protect
that fruit.

2238
02:22:24,560 --> 02:22:30,240
And yeah.
And then makes allusions to, if

2239
02:22:30,240 --> 02:22:34,160
I'm not mistaken, that that last
part there talks about kind of a

2240
02:22:34,160 --> 02:22:37,160
lineage of the savior, right?
Standing as saviors on Mount

2241
02:22:37,160 --> 02:22:39,800
Zion temple work, that sort of
thing.

2242
02:22:41,320 --> 02:22:44,680
We, we had a previous podcast
where we talked about the

2243
02:22:44,680 --> 02:22:47,520
reasons for plural marriage and
you did an excellent job and,

2244
02:22:47,520 --> 02:22:52,040
and laying that out about
preserving the the posterity

2245
02:22:52,160 --> 02:22:58,320
back, back to Adam, right?
You have to look at the whole

2246
02:22:58,320 --> 02:23:00,760
picture to understand what,
what's going on here.

2247
02:23:00,960 --> 02:23:03,880
Because if you just say, well,
it's just about multiple wives,

2248
02:23:04,320 --> 02:23:06,360
well, yeah, it's going to be
easy to get rid of at that

2249
02:23:06,360 --> 02:23:09,400
point.
But you have to understand the

2250
02:23:09,400 --> 02:23:12,800
underpinnings of what's
happening and the plan that the

2251
02:23:12,800 --> 02:23:17,040
Lord has or you're you're kind
of doomed.

2252
02:23:18,920 --> 02:23:21,360
You're kind of doomed to end up
in Michelle Brady Stone's camp.

2253
02:23:21,360 --> 02:23:24,480
I don't know how else to say it.
You have to understand the

2254
02:23:24,480 --> 02:23:26,760
doctrine.
You have to understand what it

2255
02:23:26,760 --> 02:23:32,600
was, what was being taught in
conjunction with this practice

2256
02:23:33,200 --> 02:23:36,000
period.
It would be like doing temple

2257
02:23:36,000 --> 02:23:39,800
work without understanding what
vicarious work for the dead is.

2258
02:23:39,960 --> 02:23:41,440
It would.
It would be pointless.

2259
02:23:42,280 --> 02:23:44,560
Right and and right, it's, it's
all about the priesthood.

2260
02:23:44,560 --> 02:23:47,520
I remember, you know, Jesus
Christ said, I will make, you

2261
02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:49,880
know, the covenant that God made
with Israel is that I will make

2262
02:23:49,880 --> 02:23:51,600
you a nation of kings and
priests.

2263
02:23:52,400 --> 02:23:56,400
That's a, that's a priesthood.
How, how is the Kingdom going to

2264
02:23:56,400 --> 02:24:00,480
how are we going to, you know,
how, how is the Kingdom going to

2265
02:24:01,440 --> 02:24:04,800
put all other, you know, all
other nations are going to be

2266
02:24:04,800 --> 02:24:06,520
under the Kingdom of God?
How is that going to happen?

2267
02:24:06,520 --> 02:24:11,240
Unless the priesthood is like it
says in that poem, it's going to

2268
02:24:11,560 --> 02:24:15,000
extend throughout the whole
world, essentially.

2269
02:24:15,760 --> 02:24:21,560
Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, Kimberly, anything else

2270
02:24:21,560 --> 02:24:26,360
you want to wrap up with?
I the only thing I would just

2271
02:24:26,360 --> 02:24:31,680
add again, is I that my hope for
doing this podcast is, is I hope

2272
02:24:31,680 --> 02:24:34,440
that when people listen to this,
they just walk away with that

2273
02:24:34,440 --> 02:24:39,320
eternal hope that you know,
again, that the gospel is true,

2274
02:24:39,560 --> 02:24:43,240
that the restoration is true,
that temple ordinances are of

2275
02:24:43,240 --> 02:24:46,960
God, and that they don't have to
be afraid of the historical

2276
02:24:46,960 --> 02:24:49,520
practice of plural marriage.
Absolutely.

2277
02:24:50,280 --> 02:24:55,040
And and that because of the
sacrifices of these women, we

2278
02:24:55,040 --> 02:24:57,520
get to enjoy the fruits of the
gospel.

2279
02:24:58,200 --> 02:25:02,360
Absolutely.
I want to say just a few things

2280
02:25:02,360 --> 02:25:07,760
here before we wrap up, and I
want to make it abundantly clear

2281
02:25:08,520 --> 02:25:11,640
that these are my words.
They're not Kimber Kimberly's.

2282
02:25:11,640 --> 02:25:18,480
There's nobody else's.
If you're on the fence here and

2283
02:25:18,480 --> 02:25:21,720
you're you're looking at
Michelle Brady Stone and you're

2284
02:25:21,720 --> 02:25:25,520
looking at Justin Griffin and
you're looking at a host of

2285
02:25:25,520 --> 02:25:29,880
polygamy deniers.
And quite frankly, it's not I,

2286
02:25:29,880 --> 02:25:35,080
I, I think even that term, you
know, polygamy denier doesn't

2287
02:25:35,080 --> 02:25:37,840
tell the full story of what
you're going to be up against.

2288
02:25:38,480 --> 02:25:44,440
You you are in actively engaged
in taking out the underpinnings

2289
02:25:44,440 --> 02:25:47,080
of what the restoration is
really all about.

2290
02:25:48,760 --> 02:25:52,240
And it's not just plural
marriage, it's ceilings.

2291
02:25:52,240 --> 02:25:57,720
It's it's all those things I
alluded to in in an in those

2292
02:25:57,720 --> 02:26:01,400
unintended consequences of
trying to to get rid of this.

2293
02:26:03,320 --> 02:26:09,840
Just know that the history is
overwhelming, that Joseph not

2294
02:26:09,840 --> 02:26:13,000
only taught but practice plural
marriage.

2295
02:26:14,600 --> 02:26:17,880
Overwhelming.
You have to be.

2296
02:26:20,240 --> 02:26:23,400
We are past, hey, is this a
possibility?

2297
02:26:24,160 --> 02:26:28,240
Questioning.
We are now into your you're

2298
02:26:28,240 --> 02:26:33,560
lying.
And if you ever wanted to know

2299
02:26:33,640 --> 02:26:37,640
which side you'd be on in the
Book of Mormon when core horror

2300
02:26:37,640 --> 02:26:40,400
came creeping around, this is
your time to show it.

2301
02:26:41,200 --> 02:26:43,800
Because if you fall for this
enticing.

2302
02:26:43,800 --> 02:26:46,440
And I get it.
I've been through the ringer

2303
02:26:46,440 --> 02:26:50,280
studying Mormonism and all the
stuff that I perceived as

2304
02:26:50,280 --> 02:26:55,240
problematic.
I understand the the, the

2305
02:26:55,240 --> 02:26:59,080
unsettling feelings that come,
but I also understand the

2306
02:26:59,080 --> 02:27:03,160
benefits of sticking with it and
working through those things.

2307
02:27:03,440 --> 02:27:05,520
And I'm not saying you're going
to go my direction, right?

2308
02:27:05,520 --> 02:27:08,840
I'm not telling anybody.
Oh, OK, now, now you understand.

2309
02:27:08,840 --> 02:27:11,920
So just jump on the Fundy train.
We'll all go together.

2310
02:27:11,920 --> 02:27:16,440
It's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is you have to

2311
02:27:16,440 --> 02:27:20,240
understand it if you want to
understand the gospel and the

2312
02:27:20,240 --> 02:27:24,320
restoration as taught as
revealed by Joseph Smith.

2313
02:27:25,120 --> 02:27:28,080
And I hear a lot of people
saying, gosh, how could people

2314
02:27:28,080 --> 02:27:30,040
fall for that when Cora whore
came around?

2315
02:27:30,400 --> 02:27:34,880
Well, here's your opportunity
because Michelle Brady Stone is

2316
02:27:34,880 --> 02:27:36,720
a Cora whore.
I don't know how else to put it.

2317
02:27:36,960 --> 02:27:42,840
Justin Griffin is a Cora whore
and and the people who lead out

2318
02:27:43,040 --> 02:27:45,800
in that are absolutely a Cora
whore.

2319
02:27:46,120 --> 02:27:49,160
And they're praying, quite
frankly, on some of the weakest

2320
02:27:49,160 --> 02:27:53,720
of us.
They rely on people having a

2321
02:27:53,720 --> 02:27:57,120
faith crisis and then
capitalizing on that faith

2322
02:27:57,120 --> 02:28:01,360
crisis.
And they also are using the same

2323
02:28:01,360 --> 02:28:05,720
deplorable tactics that were
used on the Founding Fathers,

2324
02:28:06,080 --> 02:28:10,280
right?
The left understood entirely, If

2325
02:28:10,280 --> 02:28:12,920
you want to get rid of the
Constitution, you have to

2326
02:28:12,920 --> 02:28:15,480
progress past it.
And the only way you can

2327
02:28:15,480 --> 02:28:19,040
progress past it is by
discrediting the founders.

2328
02:28:20,120 --> 02:28:23,520
Now, they're not out and
outright discrediting Joseph

2329
02:28:23,520 --> 02:28:25,400
Smith.
They're just painting you a very

2330
02:28:25,400 --> 02:28:29,560
different picture of Joseph, who
Joseph Smith is, one that's not

2331
02:28:29,560 --> 02:28:32,600
based in truth.
And then they're out and out

2332
02:28:32,600 --> 02:28:35,200
discrediting and attacking
Brigham Young.

2333
02:28:35,600 --> 02:28:38,800
So understand that if you're on
the fence, and if you are on the

2334
02:28:38,800 --> 02:28:42,080
fence and you are, you're
concerned and you don't know

2335
02:28:42,080 --> 02:28:45,400
where to turn, go seek out those
sources.

2336
02:28:45,800 --> 02:28:48,800
Kimberly is, is the book Women
of Mormon available today?

2337
02:28:48,800 --> 02:28:52,440
Where do they find that?
I'm pretty sure you can still

2338
02:28:52,440 --> 02:28:55,480
find it on Amazon so it's
definitely available.

2339
02:28:55,600 --> 02:28:57,880
I'm there.
I think you can even get APDF

2340
02:28:57,880 --> 02:29:02,720
online so if you don't want a
hard copy just Google woman of

2341
02:29:02,720 --> 02:29:06,080
more of them and.
I'll try to hunt that down and

2342
02:29:06,080 --> 02:29:07,640
put in the show notes on this
episode.

2343
02:29:07,960 --> 02:29:15,160
What about the women's exponent?
It's yes, you can buy.

2344
02:29:15,200 --> 02:29:17,760
You definitely can't.
Yes, it's called The Woman's

2345
02:29:17,760 --> 02:29:23,320
View and I think it, it was I, I
bought my copy off Amazon.

2346
02:29:23,320 --> 02:29:27,280
So yeah, you can definitely get
the Women's exponent.

2347
02:29:27,720 --> 02:29:32,240
I recommend just I, I actually
recommend all the poems by Eliza

2348
02:29:32,240 --> 02:29:33,640
R Snow.
They were published.

2349
02:29:33,640 --> 02:29:37,800
Someone's published them again,
because she's teaching the

2350
02:29:37,800 --> 02:29:42,040
doctrine, she's revealing the
doctrine through poetry.

2351
02:29:44,720 --> 02:29:47,360
So you can learn so much about
the gospel through just reading

2352
02:29:47,360 --> 02:29:50,360
her poems.
Yeah.

2353
02:29:50,360 --> 02:29:52,600
Helen Mark Kimball.
Joseph Smith Foundation

2354
02:29:52,600 --> 02:29:57,080
published the book a year or so
ago.

2355
02:29:57,080 --> 02:29:59,360
I recommend that book.
I'm learning about Helen Mark

2356
02:29:59,360 --> 02:30:02,080
Kimball 'cause she is one of
those voices of, of her

2357
02:30:02,080 --> 02:30:04,440
marriage.
And she was, she's actually a

2358
02:30:04,440 --> 02:30:06,560
historian herself, Helen Mark
Kimball.

2359
02:30:06,560 --> 02:30:10,760
So she documents the history,
'cause she, she pretty much

2360
02:30:10,760 --> 02:30:13,240
lived the history, right.
She grew up in the gospel.

2361
02:30:13,720 --> 02:30:16,000
So she lived every major event
in history.

2362
02:30:16,000 --> 02:30:21,800
So she's definitely a source.
Her her journals are published.

2363
02:30:22,920 --> 02:30:24,600
So yeah.
Awesome.

2364
02:30:25,720 --> 02:30:27,920
Anything else before we wrap up,
Kimberly?

2365
02:30:29,080 --> 02:30:32,040
No, I just appreciate this
opportunity and I appreciate the

2366
02:30:32,040 --> 02:30:35,600
conversation and I hope it's
edifying to your listeners.

2367
02:30:36,200 --> 02:30:38,320
I'm sure it will be.
I know my mind's blown every

2368
02:30:38,320 --> 02:30:40,480
time we talk.
Hang out for 5 minutes.

2369
02:30:40,480 --> 02:30:42,400
I just got a few more things I
want to go over with you.

2370
02:30:42,880 --> 02:30:44,040
OK.
All right.

2371
02:30:44,360 --> 02:30:45,160
Bye everybody.