Episode #152: Hugh Nibley Part 2 His Teachings & Insights W/Ken Peterson

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So last week we covered who
Nibley was as a person.

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Now this week, I got a real
treat for you.

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Ken Peterson joins me again for
Part 2 of this series on Nibley

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as we breakdown his work,
teachings and discoveries.

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And just a quick public service
announcement here.

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You might want to wear a hat to
keep your head together because

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some of this will blow your
mind.

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In the course of our
conversation, we give a quick

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breakdown of each one of Hugh
Nibley's books and their

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contents, then touch just a
little on some of his most

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profound and significant
teachings and discoveries.

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We then wrap it all up by
talking about his significance

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to the story of the Restoration.
That's next on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
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Today

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you're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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I've been waiting for this one,
my man.

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So like last week we went into
just Hugh Nibley the man, right?

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Which was fascinating enough,
right?

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I mean.
Yeah, what a life.

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Yeah, I was thinking about that.
Dude seen almost everything,

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right?
His grandfather is rehearsing to

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him what Brigham Young was like,
right?

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Fights World War 2 sees.
I mean, think about this.

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He dies in O 5, so and I know
the last year of his life he was

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bedridden, but he went from
hearing first hand accounts of

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Brigham Young to seeing the
tragedy of 9/11 in his lifetime.

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Yeah, that's a lot of history.
That's a lot for sure.

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But now we're going to get into
like the meat of what and who he

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was as we go over his teachings
and his discoveries and that

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sort of stuff.
So man, I'm just excited I got

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the I got, I got the permission
set so you can share so.

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Awesome jump in.
So there's no way possible even

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as long as we speak, to give
adequate representation to

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10,000 pages of original essays
and thinking.

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But I, and of course, I can only
present it from my perspective,

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the things that really appeal to
me.

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So I thought I'd present it as a
meal.

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We have an appetizer.
We'll start with the appetizer

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be the, I call it the Hugh
Nipley zingers.

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These, these short thoughts,
these one liners that that have

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made him so his reputation.
He's so direct and he's so

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astute that he there.
I mean, I'll, I just call them

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zingers, right?
So we'll go through a number of

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his zingers.
So for those who are not

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familiar with him at all, you'll
get a sense of why he is

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appreciated, revered, and and
why his, the, the things that he

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teaches are so memorable.
Right.

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Then the main course, it'll,
it'll take a little bit of time,

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but I want to give a brief
overview, a fly over of all 19

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volumes.
I like it just to just to

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present the contents at the very
least so people can see how the

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breadth of what he wrote about.
I mean, he's crazy.

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And then at the end to present
in some detail my favorite three

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of my favorite essays, OK,
Educating the Saints, where he

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quotes Brigham Young at length,
which gives us a sense of the

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reverence that he has for the
teachings of Brigham Young and

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clearly how they kind of are
kindred spirits because they

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kind of think and talk directly
in the same way.

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Then conclude with the two
essays.

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The more than anything have
stretched my brain in terms of

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the restored gospel.
So we'll do that.

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So the zingers are like the
appetizer, right?

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Exactly.
OK, so so like a good, I don't

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know, like loaded cheese fries.
So so is the main entree going

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to be more like spiritual smoked
brisket?

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That's what I'm wondering.
That's what your steak, baby.

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Your steak I.
Like it.

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I like it.
All right, let's roll.

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This has been great.
I'm excited.

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And before we have to do a
palate cleanser first, OK?

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Which is to say, I wouldn't feel
like we have covered him

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completely if we didn't refute
the arguments against him and

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his work, which will take just a
little bit.

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So first of all, I begin with
this thought, which is Hew

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Nibley himself Speaking of his
work, which gave me a great deal

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of insight into why he did what
he did.

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He said I'm trying to increase
in faith, having become sort of

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a specialist in evidences for
the gospel.

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Very interesting.
He knew that.

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He goes on.
They turn up everywhere.

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Some are convincing to others
and some are not.

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But I am besieged all day long
by people seeking reassurance.

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It is infinitely satisfying to
be able to speak to them with

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absolute assurance.
The real knowledge does not come

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from any source but one.
But as in putting this

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presentation together, what
became clear to me, the breadth

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of the topics that he dealt with
had to do with the breadth of

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the questions that he was
confronted with on a daily

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basis.
Because he was teaching college

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students at Brigham Young and
they found in him someone who

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they could ask any and all of
their questions.

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And he took great pleasure and
being able to answer those

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questions for them.
And now we have 19 volumes

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because of all of those
questions.

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You know what's interesting
about that quote?

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Do we have the date on that
quote by chance?

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I suppose we do if I go to the
original text.

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It's, it's fine.
I'll, I'll talk here real quick

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about this.
So this has been something that

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has always interested me, the
step between faith to knowledge,

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right?
Oh, yeah.

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Here Hugh seems to be he he
seems to be saying something a

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little bit different, right?
He's not talking about faith.

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He's talking about, you know,
I'm besieged all the day long by

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people seeking reassurance,
right?

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Yep.
And then he, he goes, you know,

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it's infinitely satisfying to be
able to speak to them with

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absolute assurance, the real
knowledge.

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Right.
Yeah, yeah.

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Something has happened to Hugh
Nibley at before that he makes

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this quote where he has all the
sudden, you know, contrast this

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to, you know, is there really
something on the other side to

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now He's like, Oh no, this is
absolute for sure.

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This is knowledge.
I I find that step in people's

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lives always very fascinating.
This quote comes from a letter

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to his son Alex from June 27th,
1980.

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OK, so it's late.
Yep.

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Yep.
So yeah, Hugh.

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Yeah.
Hugh Nibley's gotten to a point

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here to where he's no longer
dealing in just matters of faith

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now for for him, this has become
knowledge and and.

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I see that, yeah.
And I see that a part of his

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thought process.
He's even from his probably late

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teens, early 20s, when he was
asked if he ever had any doubts

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and he said no except for life
after death because because he

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had no evidence for that.
Right.

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Suggesting that he had very
strong evidence for everything

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else that he believed well and.
There was that other quote that

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you'd shared with me on the
first episode where where

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basically he had kind of alluded
to the fact that he'd been shown

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a few things, right?
And, and then when we look at

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that and, and we know he went
through a near death experience,

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a lot of people have those LDS
or otherwise often come back

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saying the veil's a little bit
thinner now, right?

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And I've often wondered,
especially in books like Enoch

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the prophet, right, where he's
painting that picture of the

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sons of God living in the
Highlands and the cities of the

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wicked below and how the cities
of the wicked are kind of luring

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in the sons of God down into
into the cities, right?

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And he paints a picture that
quite frankly, I'm like, that

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seems to be a little more than
just the imagination at work

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here, right?
And and I've often wondered if

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the veil didn't get a little
thinner for Hugh Nibley after

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that near death experience.
And maybe.

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No question.
The things from time to time

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that would help him paint the
picture for the rest of us.

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Well, remember he told his
daughter and somebody said, how

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did you do all of this?
And he said prayer.

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And then he said, and I had a
special arrangement with the

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other side, right, Whatever that
means, right, right.

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And Speaking of Enoch, you've,
you've had some wonderful

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presentations on Enoch sometime.
They probably talk about this in

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private, but we should just take
a spin.

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Through all through all three.
Books of Enoch sometime.

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We should do that.
I mean, just do it.

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I'm down, that'll be fun.
I'm down.

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You name the time and place I'll
be there.

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Let's see Mormon Renegade
podcast.

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Give me a month or so.
Right.

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That'll be fun.
All right, so this first graphic

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I imagine you have some sympathy
with.

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Little bit.
Little bit, right?

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I know that feeling.
I know that feeling.

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Exactly.
Exactly.

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Anyone of any prominence in any
organization becomes a target

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for the adversaries of that of
said organization.

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Yeah.
Oh, yeah.

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Right.
Yep.

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Hello.
Joseph Smith.

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Right.
And Brigham Young and everybody

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who falls after that.
And the most prominent scholar

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of the restored gospel is you
nibbly.

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Right?
Clearly he's a target.

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You understand this.
I'm sure I do so it.

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And so it's summarized something
like this.

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Jeff Needle, a non latter day
St. acknowledges I am not

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unaware of the criticisms that
have been hurled at Doctor

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Nibley both before and after his
death.

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Just like Joseph, right?
And I know that some have

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questioned the quality of Nibley
scholarship.

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Did he tend to be sloppy?
So he asked 3 questions.

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What did he tend to be sloppy in
his research?

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Were his footnotes a nightmare
to verify?

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And three, did he make stuff up
out of whole cloth?

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All of these charges have been
hurled at him and he and he

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makes this statement which is
false.

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His defenders ignore the
charges.

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Clearly, as we'll see tonight,
that is not true.

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His detractors thrill bringing
down the most prominent of

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Mormon scholars.
Most certainly so.

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Most certainly so because so few
have actually read what he is

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presenting.
Because it's it's just, it's

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esoteric.
It's just out there.

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Most people don't have access to
it.

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Well, and he's the first one to
do it right.

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He's the first one to say we're
going to take a scholarly

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approach to Mormonism and we are
going to make connections to the

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ancients in our modern day
practice.

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You know, it's one thing to make
claims of angels in a

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restoration of true
Christianity.

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It's another thing to say now
we're going to prove it by

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scholarship, right?
Because now you're kind of like

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I've always said, you know,
you've made someone mad when

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they start saying you're
touching my stuff, right?

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And you, Nibley, for the first
time ever didn't see the first

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guy ever within Mormonism,
didn't see a huge problem with

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like, Oh no, I'll touch your
stuff, right.

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00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,880
Like, I, I think I can totally,
I think I can totally play with

228
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,480
these toys and, and, and it's
going to be just fine.

229
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,840
And so anytime you do that, you
buck the trend.

230
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,080
Yeah, you're going to be a
target.

231
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:30,040
Yeah, so the response, the
refutation of the accusation

232
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,080
that his sources and his
footnotes are sloppy, kind of

233
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:39,160
making stuff up.
Guy named James Treadway, but I

234
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,800
don't know if this was his
official title, but he was.

235
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,160
He was in charge of managing the
production of the whole work,

236
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,840
making sure that everything
stayed on track and he would get

237
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,360
in there and do some of the
footnote verifications himself.

238
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,120
And this is what he said, and I
loved his perspective.

239
00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:01,000
He says as far as the thousands
upon thousands of footnotes that

240
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,600
we checked, and I'm going to
interject here, if you've never

241
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:10,760
read Nibley, you have no concept
of how significant his footnotes

242
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,440
are.
Because as he give, as he

243
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,040
speaks, and a lot of these, by
the way, we're not presented,

244
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,080
we're not presented for
publication.

245
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,200
They were giving us talks or as
lectures.

246
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,800
So he is just shooting from the
hip, citing these ancient

247
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,280
sources, some of which were just
newly discovered.

248
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,480
And so it would be very easy for
even the best scholar to

249
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,520
misquote something or to cite it
incorrectly right as they're

250
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,640
speaking.
And as I've said before, most of

251
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:49,040
his essays, the page, the number
of pages dedicated to endnotes

252
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:56,040
or footnotes, are actually more
than the essay itself.

253
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,960
Right.
To show you how how deep his

254
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,040
citation process is and the
thoughts that he is presenting,

255
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:12,280
the ideas that he is presenting
are based on hundreds and

256
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,680
hundreds and thousands of
documents in the end.

257
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,040
All right.
So as far as the thousands upon

258
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,280
thousands of footnotes that we
checked, I remembered no glaring

259
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,320
errors.
He would transpose numbers

260
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:28,400
sometimes and that sort of
thing.

261
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,120
We'll see why he goes on.
I was amazed at the accuracy of

262
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,360
his transcriptions as we checked
the sources against them.

263
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,720
So Unibli would translate
because he couldn't have those

264
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,640
hundreds and hundreds of
documents at his fingertips.

265
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:49,880
He would transcribe them,
sometimes translating them to

266
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,440
use in his publications or his
talks.

267
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,440
So he's actually translating and
translating sources.

268
00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,680
Right.
Or or, or at least just copying.

269
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,400
And he's human, so you find
errors in there.

270
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,240
He goes on.
I can't imagine how he read so

271
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:12,440
widely because there were nibbly
tracks in so many books in the

272
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,079
Harold B Lee library.
And when they say nibbly tracks,

273
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,359
he nibbly did something that he
wasn't supposed to do.

274
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,720
So he'd be in the library
looking at these sources, and

275
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,079
when he saw something that
appealed to him, he'd take his

276
00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:31,920
pencil and make a note in the
margin to help him find it

277
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,560
again.
And they call them Nibley

278
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,720
tracks.
And it's like, it's like this

279
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:43,280
trail of bread crumbs, you know,
that Nibley actually was citing

280
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,640
it right here because he left
his notation.

281
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:46,880
That's.
Crazy.

282
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,480
So he goes, he says.
I can't imagine how he read so

283
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,080
widely because there were Nibley
tracks in so many books in the

284
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,160
Harold B Lee Library that it
seemed no one could have read

285
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,720
that much.
And that was only one library.

286
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:07,480
That's the one at BYU, he said.
When I went to Berkeley to find

287
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,920
some of his sources, I found
Nibley tracks scattered all over

288
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,600
there too.
It had been rumored.

289
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,360
The rumor was when he was
preparing for the defense of his

290
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:22,560
dissertation that he started on
the 1st floor and went through

291
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,840
every book of interest to him
all the way to the top floor of

292
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,560
the library, which was many
floors, maybe as many as 9.

293
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,880
And we got through, and we got
books through interlibrary loan

294
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,240
from Harvard, Princeton,
Stanford, and a bunch of other

295
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,040
universities with those same
tracks.

296
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,000
Holy cow.
So Nibley had been all over

297
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,680
those.
So was he making stuff up?

298
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,080
Absolutely not.
Right.

299
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,520
He'd been there to think.
And here's the the the point

300
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,840
that is impressive to me.
To think that he typed each

301
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:07,600
quote by hand on a card with
that old manual typewriter and

302
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:13,120
indexed them without any
computer was mind boggling.

303
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:14,280
Holy.
Cow.

304
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:23,280
So not only were they accurate,
for the most part, what he did

305
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,920
borders on the impossible.
Let me ask you this.

306
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,840
Do you find any traces in in
Hugh Nibley's personal writings

307
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,480
anywhere that he understands he
is breaking ground here?

308
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,880
Sorry, you cut out for a second.
What was that?

309
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:46,240
No, that's all OK in in any of
Hugh Nibley's personal writings,

310
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:53,000
do you find any ideas that maybe
he's understanding that he is

311
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:58,640
breaking new ground?
Not I'm trying to think through

312
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:04,080
what I've read, not explicitly
so, but I think implicit in

313
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:09,400
everything he did, he recognized
that he was OK.

314
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,160
I mean, as we will see in his
articles, I abundantly clear

315
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,960
certainly the first latter day
St. and certainly the fat first

316
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:23,200
latter day St. utilizing ancient
texts presented to the world,

317
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,840
some for the first time in their
relationship.

318
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,720
To the restored gospel.
But the statement that we

319
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,480
started with where he said that
he takes great pleasure in

320
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:41,160
answering these questions, I
think it was, I think that would

321
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,840
be the closest statement I've
read.

322
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:45,840
Or he recognizes the
significance of what he's doing.

323
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,440
Yeah.
The only reason I ask is there

324
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,400
there's a lot of documentation
on Washington that he

325
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,080
understood.
He was setting the precedent

326
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,200
that the other presidents would
have to walk up to.

327
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,960
And so he was always very
cognizant of what he was doing.

328
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,320
And with these nibbly tracks, as
we call them, I wonder if if

329
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:13,720
that's not also maybe nibbly
showing his work, so to speak,

330
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,360
right, Allowing himself to
retrace it or allowing others to

331
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,680
retrace it in a very tactile
kind of way.

332
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:27,520
You know, I possibly so,
although considering the

333
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,920
difficulty of what he was doing,
I think it was just fundamental

334
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,520
necessity.
I mean, I'm, I'm trying to

335
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,080
estimate, I've never found a
good estimate of how many

336
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,320
footnotes he has in the
collected works.

337
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,960
But we're talking about, let's
just just do some simple math,

338
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,960
10,000 pages of material.
And I would estimate on average

339
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,720
10 footnotes per page.
So I was trying to give a rough,

340
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,760
rough mathematical estimate, a
guesstimate of the number of

341
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,480
footnotes that would be involved
in 10,000 pages of published

342
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:10,920
material.
I would say he averaged between

343
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,400
5:00 and 10:00 footnotes per
page.

344
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:20,560
So we're talking 10s of
thousands between 50,000 and

345
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,840
100,000 footnotes, endnotes,
whatever you want to call them

346
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:31,960
potentially.
Can you imagine what and was it

347
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,800
a nightmare to track all of
those down?

348
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:39,920
Well, of course, there's so many
and the works are are so rare

349
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,640
for the most part.
I mean, they had to go to

350
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,360
interlibrary loan to get certain
texts were only available from

351
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:50,080
one or two libraries in the
nation, right?

352
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:57,160
So, I mean, there were teams of
people and to the credit of the

353
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,840
time, the effort to verify his
citations and his sources,

354
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,320
right?
And like, say, for the vast

355
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,320
majority of them, they were
absolutely spot on.

356
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,760
Holy cow.
I, I consider that one refuted.

357
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:17,480
Oh, absolutely.
Some have suggested that the

358
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,560
word is parallelomania.
A lot of what he did was to find

359
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,880
parallels between things that
were found in these ancient

360
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:32,960
texts.
And we're going to talk about

361
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:38,560
one critic, Douglas Salman.
It was on the forefront of this.

362
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,160
And this is how Salman
characterized Cunibili's quote

363
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,760
UN quote parallel mania says.
Despite the errors he claims to

364
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,880
have found in Nibley's writings,
critic Douglas F Salmon admits

365
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,720
that quote.
This is not to say that there

366
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,800
are no legitimate parallels
between documents of the ancient

367
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,680
Near East and latter day
Scripture.

368
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,840
In fact, he finds these
parallels a truly staggering,

369
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,120
undeniable fact.
Those are in quotes.

370
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,400
Wow.
So the critic here is admitting

371
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,160
I I found a couple of errors.
But these parallels are

372
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,800
staggering.
Yeah, and they're and they're

373
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,960
undeniable.
Right.

374
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:31,480
And let me interject here.
Ordinance meaning if there were

375
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,640
no parallels, there'd be nothing
in the concordance, right?

376
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,840
Right.
But what I ended up finding was

377
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:43,040
over about 400 pages, and there
will be more of these parallels.

378
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,880
Talk about staggering, right?
And the reason I wanted to do

379
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,680
that was because instead of just
believing Hugh Nibley, those

380
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,680
kind of staggering, undeniable
parallels I had to see with my

381
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,680
own eyes.
Right.

382
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,800
And I found those and many,
many, many more well going on.

383
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:10,960
That's really I mean in in
Hughes Nibley's more, I don't

384
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,600
want to say scholarly, right,
because everything he did was

385
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:19,560
scholarly, but in his more in
depth works, I mean, that's

386
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,960
really what he's doing is just
showing you the parallels,

387
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,040
right.
And and for the initiated in

388
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,040
Mormonism, they're stark.
They they popped out at you,

389
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:30,680
you.
Know.

390
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,160
Yeah, they sure do.
Yeah.

391
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,720
So going on.
And indeed, the vast majority of

392
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,960
Nibley's parallels in his ethnic
studies, let alone his entire

393
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:46,280
literary corpus, are not even
examined by Salman, nor even

394
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,200
mentioned.
So Salman is making these

395
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,520
conclusions about these truly
staggering, undeniable parallels

396
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,880
without having even gone through
the majority of Nibley's works.

397
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,560
Wow.
Going on.

398
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,520
Thus, he is admitting that
despite occasional errors and

399
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,440
disputed cases, authentic
parallels between Latter Day

400
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,720
Saints, scriptures and ancient
writings have indeed been found

401
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:18,000
by Nibley and others.
But since he, Salman, apparently

402
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,680
does not wish to consider the
possibility that the existence

403
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,760
of a parallel in an ancient text
can confirm the prophetic

404
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,200
insider Joseph Smith, Solomon
attempts to offer an alternative

405
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,600
theory to explain the
unchallenged parallels.

406
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,920
So this is I I love this, and I
see this frequently in response

407
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:45,000
to the book and to my book.
Serious scholars, when they

408
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,080
recognize that these parallels,
they're legitimate, and they

409
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,080
can't get around that anymore,
the very first thing they

410
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,240
rationally try to do, as I
would, is to explain how Joseph

411
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,200
Smith did that.
Right, because he can't be what

412
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,400
he said he was.
Right, that, yeah, angels and

413
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,080
golden place.
That's just nuts.

414
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:13,040
Who could believe that?
And so and we talked about Dan

415
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,280
Peterson's unbelieving father,
who finally, after having read

416
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,720
some Nibley, looks at his
missionary age son and says,

417
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,480
could this actually be true?
Right, right.

418
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,600
Well presented with the facts.
It's like, wow, maybe angels are

419
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,080
possible kind of a thing.
Look, it's one of those things,

420
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:41,120
right, where it is such a an
amazing story.

421
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:45,800
It is hard to believe, right.
Unless, unless you have for, for

422
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,200
those of us, you know, and
everybody I think has to come to

423
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,840
this spiritually at some point,
right?

424
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:57,040
Yeah, Yeah.
But so, yeah, it is a fantastic

425
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,040
story, but there's a lot of
fantastic stories that are

426
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,520
absolutely, 100% true.
Oh yeah.

427
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,640
And, and we even see that in in
modern day times, so.

428
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,640
Oh yeah, Particularly in respect
to the cosmos.

429
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,360
Mind blowing.
Yep.

430
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:16,120
Or the microcosm for that
matter.

431
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:23,120
Anyway.
So he so Salman's attempt goes

432
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:26,440
something like this well, so he
attempts to offer an alternative

433
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,720
theory to explain the
unchallenged parallels.

434
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:35,880
Thereby, I suspect that the
person who's speaking here is

435
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:41,520
the late, great William Hamblin,
one of the people who took up

436
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,160
the charge or or who inherited
the mantle of Hugh Nibley.

437
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,400
I love his writings.
OK.

438
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:57,440
He says thereby, he suspects,
tacitly hoping to undermine the

439
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,160
historicity of Smith's
scriptures, which is ultimately

440
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,280
the goal of all critics of the
restored gospel.

441
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,120
The if they can undermine Joseph
Smith and figure out some way he

442
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,200
was able to do all of this, they
can undermine the the truth

443
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,360
claims.
In the second-half of his paper,

444
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:22,120
Salman offers what he considers
a superior alternative to the

445
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,440
historical comparative analysis
of textual and cultural

446
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:32,520
parallels by turning to Carl
Jung's theory of archetypes and

447
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:43,320
the collective consciousness.
And see, I kind of like Carl

448
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,400
Jung, right?
I, I do, I, you know, but I

449
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,040
wouldn't use him to try to
explain Joseph Smith, right?

450
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,800
I feel like that's a stretch.
Now, granted, I'm not a scholar,

451
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,760
I'm not a historian, I don't
play one on TV, but man, it, it,

452
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,560
it seems to me like a stretch,
right?

453
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,280
I, I've read, I've read a little
bit of his stuff and, and I

454
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,160
don't see how you could explain
it.

455
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,840
And then this idea of a
collective consciousness, right?

456
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,600
I look if if we all come from
the same source so to speak,

457
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,760
God, there might be something to
that, but not in the way I think

458
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:28,240
it's being ascribed here.
In responding to the a similar

459
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:34,880
argument on my book Facebook
page, one critic was trying to

460
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,760
explain it by saying that Joseph
Smith was tapping into this

461
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,680
cultural understanding of the
teachings of Plato.

462
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,320
No, Agreed.
No and.

463
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,840
And and Plato did teach some
rather extraordinary things,

464
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,760
however, as I responded to him.
So the teachings of Plato don't

465
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,920
even come close to explaining
the bull's eyes, like specific

466
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:06,920
names of specific biblical
characters, specific dates, very

467
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:13,600
specific occurrences and times
and priesthoods and on.

468
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,160
And and.
Well, when we talk about temple

469
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:21,480
rights, rights names, science
tokens, all of this stuff, Plato

470
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,040
can't explain all of that
specificity.

471
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,600
No.
Or, or as Nibbly says about the

472
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,600
Book of Mormon names, at least.
And he talks about Pearl.

473
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,200
Great price names.
What do you say about the guy

474
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:34,600
who comes up with the right
ones?

475
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,240
You know, Right.
Yeah.

476
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,840
Collective consciousness.
You know, that BS.

477
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,360
There's no way.
No, no.

478
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,160
And and really if you, if you
looked at Plato, especially

479
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,320
because I can only imagine where
he's drawing his, his

480
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:55,640
comparisons to right.
Joseph Smith has this idea of a,

481
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,680
a kind of new society with a
Zion type society, right.

482
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,720
If you follow what, what Pluto
has talked about, you know, and,

483
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,640
and I believe the term was a, a
plutocracy, right?

484
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,960
It's almost a forerunner to
Marxism, right?

485
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,920
In a lot of ways, right.
The states can raise their

486
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,200
children.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

487
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,080
And so those, those kind of
things don't hold water.

488
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,920
I don't know where else he could
be making, trying to make a

489
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:25,160
connection that oh, no, this is
in the, the, the, the tradition

490
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,880
of Plato, right?
I I just doesn't hold any water.

491
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,720
Well, it gets to the point of
the argument of the Occam's

492
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,640
Razor argument.
The simplest explanation is

493
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,680
usually the right one, and
Joseph Smith has been trying to

494
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,520
tell us this whole time.
You know, Yep, Yep, absolutely.

495
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,040
God is real, called me as a
prophet and he did with me what

496
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,960
he does with prophets.
Yep, he reveals things.

497
00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:00,240
Now we have the character
assassination attempts and what

498
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,480
kills me about this?
And it was prophesied to Joseph

499
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,960
Smith that he would be
persecuted and that his name

500
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,440
would be had for good and evil
throughout, for generations

501
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,000
throughout the world.
And not only, I mean, it wasn't

502
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,600
enough for his enemies to
assassinate his person, right?

503
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,680
The attempts continued today and
they continued shortly after his

504
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,360
death.
Some of the very same people who

505
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,080
were responsible for his
physical assassination to

506
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,960
continue to assassinate his
reputation and his character.

507
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,200
Right.
The same is true of poor Hugh

508
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,120
and you'll see the name John
Sorenson here.

509
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:46,520
John Sorenson was the the most
qualified in the first real

510
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,080
pioneer of Book of Mormon
geography and so they people are

511
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,720
trying to take them both out
with one fell swoop by claiming

512
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,200
this.
It is not uncommon to hear

513
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,560
people say that Hugh Nibley and
John Sorensen were not real

514
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,240
respectable scholars, that
supposedly no one outside of

515
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,679
Mormons have ever heard of them
or read their scholarship.

516
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,840
Oh, oh, so they were just, they
were famous within their little

517
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,120
small circle of Mormons, right?
Right.

518
00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:20,800
So the person who wrote this,
Neil Rapali, who's a

519
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,440
contemporary LDS scholar.
So, so to help put their careers

520
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,400
in perspective for people from
my generation, I list here a non

521
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,679
comprehensive bibliography of
the works by Unibli and John

522
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:42,639
Sorenson in non LDS venues.
So we're talking about juried,

523
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,760
peer reviewed publications.
And I, I left out the ones for

524
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,760
John Sorenson because we're not
talking about him today.

525
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,679
And there they are.
I had to make the print really

526
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:54,440
really small so they would all
fit.

527
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,160
Western Political Quarterly.
Yeah.

528
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,920
So they date starting in 1949
and go clear up to I think it's

529
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,240
1976 and there are a number of
them.

530
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:10,000
So the Western Political Court
Quarterly.

531
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,800
The historian, The Western
again.

532
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,560
Jewish Quarterly.
And halfway down the left hand

533
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,960
side.
Der Stan, the German

534
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:27,080
publications in 59, The Jewish
Quarterly, Yeah, Church history

535
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,000
studies and Christianity and
culture.

536
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,440
He was published a lot,
significantly, holy cow, in

537
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,360
publications that no, we're not
the Ensign.

538
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,040
Right.
Holy cow.

539
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,600
So was he a real scholar?
Yes, he was and into.

540
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,880
Biblical literature.
Holy cow.

541
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,040
It was said both of him and John
Sorensen that people were afraid

542
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,960
to debate them because they knew
too much.

543
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:04,040
Right in.
Fact I.

544
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,280
Paint you in a little bit
different picture when you start

545
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:13,960
seeing like purely academic and
then he's quoting his work

546
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,280
exactly.
I have them.

547
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,920
What was his name?
Co Michael Coe, I think.

548
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,160
I think he's still alive.
One of the world's pre eminent

549
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,360
Mayanists who's an expert in
Mayan history.

550
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,960
And he made the mistake once of
criticizing Book of Mormon

551
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,840
claims.
John Sorenson, who by then was

552
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,720
retired, published an open
letter to Michael Coe giving him

553
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:45,840
the smack down.
Really.

554
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,840
Yeah.
And Coe, I don't know that Coe

555
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,760
ever responded, but Co has been
publicly stated, has publicly

556
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,720
stated that John Sorenson
deviating, but just to give you

557
00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:02,840
an idea, has published some
groundbreaking work that is

558
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,360
changing our understanding
standing of Mesoamerican history

559
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,920
so well.
Now went on that one day because

560
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,160
it sounds like you're kind of
familiar with Sorenson.

561
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,320
Oh yeah, I I'm a big fan, OK.
Big fan.

562
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,520
We'll put that one in the bank
for later, too.

563
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:26,120
Yeah, the the next thing we're
going to discuss will be the low

564
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:27,760
point of our conversation
tonight.

565
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,400
OK.
It's the saddest thing to

566
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,480
discuss and I think it
demonstrates the lengths to

567
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:41,960
which the adversary will go to
target the righteous and those

568
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,480
who are dedicated to serving the
Kingdom.

569
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,160
The woman that you see there is
Hugh Nibley's youngest daughter,

570
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,920
Martha Nibley Beck.
This is taken straight out of

571
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:03,200
Wikipedia.
Nibley's daughter Martha Beck

572
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,880
published Leaving the Saints.
How I lost the Mormons and found

573
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,200
my faith in 2005.
Why is that your significant?

574
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:18,080
It's a year he died, right?
The year he died, describing her

575
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:24,960
departure from the LDS church
and claiming in 1990 she had

576
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:30,600
recovered repressed memories of
her childhood sexual abuse by

577
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:35,960
her father.
Unibly, Beck linked the abuse to

578
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,080
her father's role as an
apologist for the Mormon faith.

579
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,160
Of course she would.
He's abusing her because he was

580
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,200
defending the faith.
Wow, that makes perfect sense.

581
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,880
The book was condemned by the
LDS Church.

582
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:53,120
Of course the allegations
received national publicity.

583
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,440
Of course Nibley had long been
aware of the allegations and of

584
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,480
course denied them.
They had eight children, right?

585
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,840
Right.
Hugh and Phyllis Beck's seven

586
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:11,760
siblings responded, noting about
half this Nibley siblings had

587
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,840
left the LDS church already or
were not active in Mormonism,

588
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:19,800
and most had taken issue with
elements of their father's

589
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:25,760
personality or habits, but were
unified in their rejection of

590
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,440
Beck's claims.
So all seven of the other

591
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:36,560
siblings were like, no, that
never happened, despite the fact

592
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,760
that they weren't, I mean, they
weren't defending the church

593
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,600
because half of them weren't in
the church, right?

594
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,600
Right.
And they all knew their dad was

595
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,560
a perfect, but they were like,
no, that never happened.

596
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:51,480
And I'm going to insert here her
older sister that I posted a

597
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,240
photo of their house in the
previous presentation.

598
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,360
Very modest home.
Very modest.

599
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,960
I'd probably not 2000 square
feet and eight people packed in

600
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,160
there.
Martha and I think it was Zion

601
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:11,520
and Nibley shared a bed.
Growing up a bunk bed, how on

602
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,000
earth and the accusations that
he would dress up in Egyptian

603
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,720
robes and go in and sexually
abused her like some sort of

604
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:26,720
perverted Egyptian, right?
Which completely, I mean, goes

605
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,640
so against this consecrated life
that he led.

606
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,880
I it's unimaginable.
And how would he be able to do

607
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,880
that if Ziono was in the bed
beneath?

608
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,640
Right.
And they said that the walls of

609
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:43,240
the house were paper thin.
It was built in 55 that that

610
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:44,640
sort of thing could have
happened at all.

611
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,640
No, look, here's right when when
someone starts talking about

612
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,440
repressed memories that are
extracted through I.

613
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,880
I'm only assuming I have.
Hypnotism recovered memories

614
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,280
through hypnosis.
I'm not going to line up and

615
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,200
lend credibility to that.
And let me tell you why.

616
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,880
Because hypnotism relies on you
being in a suggestive state,

617
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:12,320
right?
And so if she's already

618
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:18,520
disgruntled with the church
slash gospel, she wants out.

619
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,960
This is the most convenient
narrative, right?

620
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:27,600
And if she has a hypnotist who
is sympathetic to her, 'cause it

621
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:32,360
those sorts of things can be
completely implanted.

622
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,600
And that's if it went goes that
far and it's just not out full

623
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:41,120
out fabrication, right?
We've seen people do far worse

624
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:46,520
for probably less money.
So it will I'll, I'll add some

625
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,280
more stuff.
I'll finish the quote here.

626
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,400
In a review of Leaving the
Saints for Sunstone magazine,

627
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,800
Tonya Rands Lyon noted that
noted many internal

628
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,040
consistencies in Beck's
narrative that argued against

629
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,240
the abuse claims and was put off
by the relentless negative view

630
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:12,520
of Mormonism.
Lyon also noted how Beck

631
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:17,200
originally intended for the
manuscript to be a novel, but

632
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,880
changed it to be an
autobiography at her publishers

633
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,720
suggestion.
There you go.

634
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:29,080
Now, the other things that were
not pointed out in this article,

635
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,520
Martha married a faithful LDS
guy that she met while in

636
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,080
Graduate School back east
somewhere, I forget.

637
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,720
And they had three children
together.

638
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:46,400
And then he comes out as being
gay and then she comes out as

639
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,240
being gay.
And then these repressed,

640
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:59,720
recovered memories happen and I
and I, I can't help but try to

641
00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:02,960
understand how.
And especially from our previous

642
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:09,880
discussion, it was abundantly
clear that he nibbly adored his

643
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,440
children.
He loved them, changed their

644
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,560
diapers, took them hiking.
And his one daughter, I think it

645
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:23,120
was Christina maybe, who spoke
of him in such glowing terms

646
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:24,920
that I was just.
I'm envious as a father.

647
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,560
I wish my daughter, I hope my
daughter, you know, the

648
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,080
sweetest, the kindest, funniest,
wittiest, wisest, most loving

649
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,400
man she has ever known.
How could one daughter say

650
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,920
something like that and another
daughter say something like

651
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,040
this?
The the inconsistency is

652
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,720
irreconcilable.
No, absolutely.

653
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,240
And look, here's here's the
other thing, right?

654
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,440
I believe you said half of his
children weren't active in the

655
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:56,840
Gospel, correct, Right.
I mean, again, we all try our

656
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,000
hardest with our kids, but at
the end of the day, there's

657
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:00,840
still people and they're all
going to make their own

658
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,800
decisions, right?
Right, Lehigh.

659
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,120
Right.
Joseph, Right.

660
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,240
Heavenly Father, right I.
Mean right, Heavenly Father.

661
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:13,160
I mean, let's let's go down the
list here, but the fact that

662
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,320
half of his kids aren't active
and say he was a great dad,

663
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,160
right?
I mean that that says something

664
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,720
here, right?
And, and again, the whole let me

665
00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:28,000
put you under hypnosis and we'll
get to the bottom of things kind

666
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:33,880
of thought not really a big,
it's not really a huge selling

667
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,840
point to me anyway.
And probably to finish this up,

668
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:45,920
I just because of the fact that
she is his child, I can't help

669
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,440
but want to understand what's
going on and why.

670
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:52,600
And I'm no psychologist and I'm
not, I'm going to refrain from

671
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,120
being an armchair psychologist.
But I watched a number of

672
00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:00,080
videos.
She's quite, she has a lot of

673
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,160
stuff up there because she works
for Oprah, or at least did I

674
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,720
think publishing for the OO
magazine and Oprah promoting

675
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,960
many of her books.
I mean, she's a, a doctor, she

676
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,160
has a doctorate in psychology or
sociology, one of those two.

677
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,240
And it does a lot of self help
of keeping of people being true

678
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:23,840
to themselves sort of thing.
And she has a number of podcasts

679
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:30,120
and videos.
And it is the videos are

680
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,760
self-explanatory in terms of
what's important to her.

681
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:34,480
Got you.
She's.

682
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,680
She's very open and proud on her
videos of her sexuality and is

683
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:44,200
proud of what she referred to as
a throuple in one case and

684
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:49,040
openly mocks Mormonism and
latter day St. beliefs and

685
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:55,600
practices.
So but the real, the thing that

686
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:02,040
breaks my heart is poor Unibli.
You know, in his last years,

687
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,600
being treated like this and
being accused like this by his

688
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,200
own flesh and blood, his own
daughter, I mean, it wouldn't

689
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,800
take much for you and I to
imagine the scar that that would

690
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,560
leave, you know?
That's just heartbreaking.

691
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:24,680
I mean, for for anybody who's a
father, I can only imagine the

692
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,920
heartbreak that that must cause
and the absolute angst.

693
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:32,880
And I, and I think right.
And clearly, Martha is dealing

694
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,720
with psychological burdens of
her own right.

695
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:44,360
And I, I would hope and pray
that when she exits this life,

696
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:50,600
it is free from the burdens of
that that she and her father can

697
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:56,560
embrace and reconcile, at least
at least there, you know, All

698
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:06,080
right, here come the appetizers.
All right, we're we're off to

699
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:12,000
the meal now.
To preface this, Elder Neil

700
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:18,040
Maxwell was a great He was a
beloved apostle, quite a scholar

701
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:24,400
himself, quite eloquent,
characterized Hugh nibbly this

702
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,800
way.
Hugh, of course, is above the

703
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,760
fray, not in the sense of his
being esoteric or highly

704
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,520
advanced, but because his
commitment is so visible and has

705
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:41,280
been so pronounced and so
repetitively stated that that's

706
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,760
not even the issue.
So then we get on to what is

707
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,680
Hugh saying?
So the almost the implicit trust

708
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,640
the church leadership had for
Hugh Nibley.

709
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,880
This is why.
Right, they didn't have to

710
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,400
wonder about his motivations, is
what he's saying there.

711
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,000
That's right and and it helps me
understand the title of his

712
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,760
biography written by his
son-in-law.

713
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:11,880
I mean his children just love
the man that in any case, the

714
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:16,160
biography is called Hugh Nibbly,
a consecrated life.

715
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,480
His life was consecrated unto
the Kingdom of God.

716
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,000
And here we go.
This is from the Essential

717
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:34,160
Nibbly in the preface, page 15.
A research assistant once saw

718
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,840
him who Nibbly bent over the
Book of Mormon laughing.

719
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,520
Nibbly explained that he had
discovered an error, that Alma

720
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:46,440
had said that all mankind is
carnal, sensual, and devilish by

721
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,440
nature.
He said that Alma should have

722
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:54,360
written that mankind is carnal,
sensual, devilish, and stupid.

723
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,840
You got to love that.
But he was laughing about it

724
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:08,040
because of his perspective.
He knew that this is from

725
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,360
approaching Zion, which you've
mentioned before, page 44.

726
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:12,840
And I want your thoughts on that
when we get there.

727
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,760
Aristotle pointed out long ago
that a shortage of knowledge is

728
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:22,000
an intolerable state, and so the
mind will do anything to escape

729
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,080
it.
In particular, it will invent

730
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:29,560
knowledge if it has to.
Or, as I I think I've read

731
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,960
elsewhere, he put it this way.
In the absence of truth, men

732
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:35,440
invent knowledge.
Yeah.

733
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,920
Which is not a good thing.
No, you see, you see that a

734
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:44,680
whole lot in academia.
You know, boy, there's a ton of

735
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:50,360
things that that that that can
can apply to I.

736
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,360
Think every single discipline.
Yep, I, I, I look at that and

737
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,680
you can even look at that.
Maybe the more heavy-handed

738
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,520
climate agenda, right?
Oh yeah.

739
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,960
For sure.
And I think this also speaks,

740
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,600
and I think it's something that
Nibley's pointed out in several

741
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,440
places.
Not like I'm going to quote it

742
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:17,200
or or say it here.
I think all men are naturally

743
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,400
religious, right?
It's not a matter if you're

744
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,680
going to be religious, it's just
a matter of which God you want

745
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:28,600
to worship, right?
And so often I think that things

746
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,720
like the the extreme left on the
side of of climate change or

747
00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:36,440
what being woke or any of those
other things, it's got all the

748
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,880
hallmarks of a religion, right.
And so when men say no, no, no,

749
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,120
I'm not religious, I tend to say
no.

750
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,800
I think you probably are.
You just don't understand it.

751
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,440
But you definitely have some
sort of God that you adhere to.

752
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:51,920
Yeah, you may not have.
Belief systems.

753
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:58,480
Yeah, you you may not have a an
idea of of a divine being, but

754
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,280
you probably have some theology
that you espouse.

755
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:09,400
Yeah, approaching Zion again.
Here, on this perilously exposed

756
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,800
little planet, battered by solar
winds from one side and cosmic

757
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,960
rays from the other, while
seething inwardly with

758
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:22,120
unimaginable heat and pressure,
we somehow find ourselves in an

759
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,800
ambience peculiarly congenial to
our comfort and convenience.

760
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,200
As if somebody actually had us
in mind.

761
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,360
His sarcasm drives me nuts.
I mean, he it's so obvious.

762
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,280
Almost as if someone had us in
mind, right?

763
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,920
I've mentioned my buddy on here
before who is a physics major

764
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:50,280
and decided to become a a land
surveyor of all things.

765
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:57,680
But he, he'd once said, you
know, I'm not sure who or what

766
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,280
God is, but there's something
divine because the the science

767
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,840
of statistic probability says we
should have been peppered with

768
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,440
big asteroids by now.
Yeah, well, and the science says

769
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,480
we have been.
The question is how are?

770
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,880
We still alive here, right?
Exactly.

771
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:21,160
Yeah, the Dead Sea Scrolls, as
this is from since Comora.

772
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,440
The Dead Sea Scrolls show us
that in the text of show us that

773
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,920
the text of the Bible has not
been so much altered for

774
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,120
actually showed us that it has
been on the whole preserved with

775
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,160
astonishing integrity as
mutilated by the removal of

776
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,480
material from the original.
So he sums up and we say we

777
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,840
believe the Bible to be the word
of God as far as it is

778
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,160
translated correctly.
And some people misinterpret

779
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,240
that to say that, you know, we
have the Bible, but the words

780
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:52,720
are wrong.
He's saying that's not what the

781
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:56,120
Dead Sea Scrolls are showing us.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are showing

782
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,760
us that what we have is
accurate.

783
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:04,720
The problem is the removal of
entire books and sections from

784
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:08,640
the original, which is exactly
what Joseph Smith gave us with

785
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,720
like the Book of Moses, the Book
of Abraham and Enoch, sections

786
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:20,960
of the Doctrine Covenant.
By the way, oh boy, what I had

787
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,200
pictured in the first graph.
Seer stones.

788
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,520
Oh boy.
Two, we have the brown seer

789
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:32,760
stone and the white seer stone,
which are not the the Urim and

790
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,840
Thummim that was given in the
spectacles that was given to

791
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,480
Joseph by the Angel Moroni.
These are two different stones

792
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:46,760
that we know that he possessed.
And I, I have a different, she's

793
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:51,960
Joseph Smith's great, great
granddaughter, OK.

794
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:56,000
I believe Gracia Jones, one of
the, one of the his first

795
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,360
descendants who were actually
baptized into the LDS Church.

796
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,760
Gracia and Gracia Jones.
She's so sharp.

797
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,560
She's amazing.
She comes to my gospel doctrine

798
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,200
class one day.
We were talking about these seer

799
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,640
stones and I was telling them
that the church is actually the,

800
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,800
the photograph on the top is the
actual stone the church has in

801
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,920
its possession.
They published a photograph of

802
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,200
it.
The bottom 1 is a rendering.

803
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,720
It's a painting of what we would
assume the Whitestone looks

804
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:29,360
like.
And I said, and to, you know, I

805
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,920
was telling the class, you know,
we know where the brownstone is.

806
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,240
The white one, We don't know
exactly where that is.

807
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:38,120
And Gracie raised her hand and
she says, I know where it is.

808
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:45,440
Well, after she was baptized,
she was given access to the

809
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:50,440
vault in the prophet's office,
the First Presidency or they

810
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,520
keep things to the public do not
have access to.

811
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,280
And because of her standing and
her recent conversion, and she

812
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,480
told me in the class, she said I
hadn't even considered it.

813
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:01,280
She, she was so new to the
gospel.

814
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:03,520
She didn't even know what she
was doing.

815
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,160
She didn't.
But on that day, she put two and

816
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,680
two together.
So this is like 40 years later.

817
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,960
This was in the 60s.
After she'd been baptized, they

818
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:17,160
took her in the vault, and her
friend Guide took the brown seer

819
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:21,080
stone and the white seer stone
and placed them in each of her

820
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:22,400
hands.
Wow.

821
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,400
She held them both.
Holy cow can.

822
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:30,800
You believe that I was like,
here she is sharing it with my

823
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,000
class.
That is so cool I had to pinch

824
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,280
myself.
You could have probably just

825
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,720
wrapped it up right then, right?
You could have probably been

826
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:40,880
like this.
I probably should have, yeah.

827
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:42,800
Yeah, this, this is the
pinnacle.

828
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,280
I I would have definitely just
been like, well, good night

829
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,120
everybody.
This has been fun.

830
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:52,360
I think I sat there like my my
mouth hanging open for about 5

831
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,400
minutes trying to consider all
that she the implications of

832
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:01,160
what she had said.
Anyway, I love how Hugh Nibley

833
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,280
and he he does so so concisely,
give this understanding of the

834
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:10,720
purpose of seer stones.
He says this is from the message

835
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:15,280
of the Joseph Smith papyri, a
Urim and thummim.

836
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:20,920
Like a dictionary is only an aid
to the translator who knows how

837
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:25,880
to work it and may be gradually
dispensed with as he becomes

838
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,280
more proficient in his spiritual
exercise.

839
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,360
This is from the prophetic Book
of Mormon.

840
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,200
Before the finger of the Lord
touched the 16 stones of the

841
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:43,040
brother of Jared, they were mere
pieces of glass, and they

842
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,760
probably became so after they
had fulfilled their purpose.

843
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:50,160
In themselves, these objects
were nothing.

844
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:55,080
They did not work by magic.
The aids and implements that God

845
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:59,840
gives to men work on no magic or
automatic or mechanical

846
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,720
principle, but only according to
the faith and diligence and heat

847
00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:07,360
which we give unto them and
ceased to work because of

848
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:12,640
wickedness.
Or, as I've said, what's a sear

849
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,240
stone without a sear?
A stone?

850
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:21,560
Yep, Yep.
From approaching Zion again.

851
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,760
Joseph Smith has placed in our
hands fragments of writings from

852
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,320
the leaders of all the major
dispensations, and now only in

853
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:35,080
very recent times has the world
come into possession of whole

854
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,720
libraries of ancient texts
against which his purported

855
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:43,640
scriptures can be tested.
And that's the summation of his

856
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,560
parallelism.
And the photograph there is of

857
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:50,960
the Nag Hamadi Library that was
discovered on the banks of the

858
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:55,200
Nile River the exact same year
the Dead Sea Scrolls were

859
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:56,800
discovered.
What?

860
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:03,680
Holy cow.
That's crazy Approaching Zion

861
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,800
again.
It is the weakness of the flesh,

862
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:12,800
in both cases money and sex, to
prove our spirits stronger than

863
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:17,360
the pull of matter, to assert
our command over the new medium

864
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:21,120
of physical bodies, before
proceeding onward to another

865
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,680
state of existence.
Wow.

866
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,080
That's an incredible perspective
of what mortality, of what its

867
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:33,760
purpose is.
You know, in, in that I find a

868
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:37,520
lot of hope, right?
Look, as we're young, young

869
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:42,640
people, it's very hard to to
bridle those those.

870
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,560
Oh yeah, those for sure.
Urges and passions, right?

871
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:50,320
Yeah.
And in here we find that this is

872
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:55,640
the, this is what this life is
for learning, learning to, to

873
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,600
bridle those and, and use them
in healthy ways.

874
00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:03,160
And you know, this is one of
those things I would share with

875
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:04,920
someone who is struggling with
that, right?

876
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,320
Like, look, just keep working at
it.

877
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,200
You got some time.
Let's, you know, don't panic,

878
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,920
but let's hurry up and get this
taken care of sort of a thing.

879
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,640
Yeah, at least to give some
perspective, you know, to

880
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,480
acknowledge, I mean
testosterone.

881
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:25,680
Oh yeah.
People who aren't guys have a

882
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:30,360
really hard time understanding
I, I, I mean, I'll confess here

883
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:34,600
and now that's been the only
real struggle of my life really.

884
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,760
I, you know, substance abuse and
that sort of stuff.

885
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:39,320
It never really had any appeal
to me.

886
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:44,240
But the burden of testosterone
is something that without the

887
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:47,840
restored gospel and as we talked
about before, I shudder to think

888
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,120
what I might have become.
Right.

889
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:57,240
That, I mean, because unchecked,
unguided testosterone will lead

890
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,640
to a life of debauchery.
I mean, that's just, that's what

891
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,240
you do.
Absolutely.

892
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:07,800
And so the, this view of
mortality and the primary

893
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,640
answers, you know, we come to
earth to get a body.

894
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:14,160
That's the beginning of the
answer, right, right.

895
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:18,120
In the world of spirits, we
mastered spirit matter.

896
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,200
To become like God, we also had
to become masters of physical

897
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,520
matter.
And then, as the Scriptures tell

898
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,400
us, then we're resurrected.
The physical and the spiritual

899
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,600
will be reunited permanently
anyway.

900
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:37,960
To become like God, He goes on.
Signed.

901
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:39,680
And this is from the world and
the prophets.

902
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:44,920
Scientists insist that the
evidence speaks for itself, only

903
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,760
to discover that it speaks with
different voices to different

904
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:53,680
scientists.
That's pretty good.

905
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,720
That's awesome.
Yeah.

906
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:01,120
It's a zinger, that one.
This is one of my favorites from

907
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:02,720
his new look at the Pearl.
Great price.

908
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:08,840
What on earth have a man's name,
degree, academic position, and

909
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,400
of all things, opinions to do
with whether a thing is true or

910
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:14,520
not?
That's a good point.

911
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:23,320
That is a very, very good point.
This is typical of his humility.

912
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,720
He says, well, I have a
testimony.

913
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:30,880
I may be ignorant, but I am not
lost.

914
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:41,600
There you go.
From since Camorra, implicit and

915
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:45,280
explicit in the concept of a
gospel taught by degrees instead

916
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,920
of all at once, precept upon
precept, line upon line, here

917
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:53,320
little there little is the idea
that the most important, the

918
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:57,520
highest, and the holiest
teachings come last.

919
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:05,000
Weighs out the pattern.
There's my, there's my temple.

920
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,400
Yep.
I love that place.

921
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:15,480
OK, beyond politics, God does
not fight Satan.

922
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,400
A word from him and Satan is
silenced and banished.

923
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:24,240
There is no contest there.
In fact, we are expressly told

924
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:28,520
that all the power which Satan
enjoys here on earth is granted

925
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:31,160
him by God.
Quote.

926
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:35,960
We will allow Satan, our common
enemy, to try men and to tempt

927
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,360
him, UN quote.
It is man's strength that is

928
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:43,280
being tested, not God's.
Absolutely.

929
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,480
From Brigham Young and the Enemy
In dealing with this particular

930
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:53,760
enemy, the enemy of all
righteousness, the first rule is

931
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:57,520
never to use his methods.
Speaking of the devil, for if we

932
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:02,240
do, he has already won.
He doesn't care which side we

933
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,280
are on as long as we act like
devils.

934
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:07,880
Boy, there's a lot of truth to
that.

935
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,840
There's, there's a lot of truth
to that.

936
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:17,560
I am not a big fan of the idea
that the ends justify the means.

937
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,240
Oh, no, no, no.
Yeah, that's a scary.

938
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:22,680
That's a That's a slippery
slurry.

939
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:31,160
Place right and I'm I'm always
very cognizant of of this idea

940
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:36,960
that that, you know, whatever it
takes will do in order to get

941
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:42,880
the end goal because on the way
to that you can justify a lot of

942
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:50,920
nasty things And and oftentimes,
oftentimes that's first

943
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:54,480
accompanied with an idea that
God's on our side right.

944
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:59,000
It's interesting if you look, if
you look at, if you look at it

945
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:04,120
at national, if you look at
American history, the founders

946
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,560
start out with this idea of
divine Providence, right?

947
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,440
And if you begin to dive in and
tear that apart.

948
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:16,280
And what that means is through
things like edicts from, from,

949
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,520
you know, state governor saying,
you know, we're going to have a

950
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,920
day of fasting and humiliation,
right?

951
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:26,480
God Almighty, there's a sense of
they were trying to be on God's

952
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:30,000
side.
Now, if you contrast that with

953
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:35,200
manifest destiny, there's a
sense with manifest destiny that

954
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,440
no, no, no, God's on our side,
right?

955
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:41,000
Right, right, right.
Justify the means now because

956
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:42,520
God is on our side.
So we have.

957
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:44,240
We're the good guys, they're the
bad guys.

958
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:45,480
Exactly.
And you?

959
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,840
Can say say the Nephites?
Horrific stuff.

960
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,480
Now, look, I want to say I'm a
fan of westward migration, but I

961
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:55,360
think we could have done that a
lot more humanely than clearly

962
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,960
that sort of thing.
And so I think Nibley really

963
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:03,800
touches on something good here
that it's more than just about

964
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:07,120
quote winning, right?
There's there's circuit than

965
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,640
that.
But I just love how he puts it.

966
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,040
It's almost funny how he says
it.

967
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:13,480
Yep.
Satan doesn't care which side

968
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:18,640
you're on as long as you act
like devils, which most often

969
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,480
happens on both sides.
Yep.

970
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:28,280
From the best possible test yet,
the moment I even think of my

971
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:33,200
priesthood as a status symbol or
a mark of superiority, it

972
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:38,080
becomes a mere hollow pretense.
At the slightest hint of

973
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,720
gloating or self congratulation,
the priesthood holder is

974
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:45,000
instantly and automatically
unfrocked.

975
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:51,360
Absolutely, Absolutely.
From Message of the Joseph Smith

976
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:55,840
Papyri, One of the most puzzling
episodes in the Bible has always

977
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:59,040
been the story of Jacob's
wrestling with the Lord.

978
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:03,280
When one considers that the word
conventionally translated by

979
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:10,520
wrestled Yevik can just as well
mean embrace, and that it was in

980
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:15,920
this ritual embrace that Jacob
received a new name and the

981
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:20,760
bestowal of priestly and kingly
power at sunrise, the parallel

982
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:24,120
to the Egyptian coronation
embrace becomes at once

983
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:29,160
apparent.
Where Mormonism have I seen a

984
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:34,360
new embrace and a new name?
Gosh, if only I could remember

985
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:36,440
I.
Have no idea what you're talking

986
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:37,600
about.
No idea what I.

987
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,920
Yeah, I mean, I felt the same.
I mean, why would an age, why

988
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,680
would Jacob wrestle?
That just seems childish to me.

989
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:48,880
Right.
Was an embrace.

990
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:55,320
Of course it would be from his
essay before Adam.

991
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:01,360
It's sad to think how many of
those telling points of

992
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:04,800
evolution that turned some of
our best students away from the

993
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,680
gospel have turned out to be
dead wrong.

994
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,640
Then it takes that further.
This essay before Adam again was

995
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:20,080
in answer to students questions.
He finally dove in and tackled

996
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:22,640
it.
He said don't begrudge the

997
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:26,840
existence of creatures that
looked like men long ago, or

998
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,920
deny them a place in God's
affection or even a right

999
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:34,040
exaltation for our Scriptures.
Allow them such.

1000
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:39,360
Don't be overly concerned with
just when and where they might

1001
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:43,360
have lived, for their world is
not our world.

1002
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:47,760
They have all gone away.
They have all left the house on

1003
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:50,840
the hill long before our people
ever appeared.

1004
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:56,200
God assigned them a proper time
and season as well as their

1005
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:01,320
proper sphere and pre designated
the earth and other earths for

1006
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:07,360
multi purpose occupancy.
You know, my buddy Sean

1007
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:10,880
Anderson, shout out to him,
shared with me a quote from

1008
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,280
Joseph Smith, a quote that was
attributed to him.

1009
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:16,880
And I can't remember who the
gentleman was that he was

1010
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:20,840
speaking to, but Joseph
basically on a starry night was

1011
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:25,120
kind of expounding as as he
often did, and he said something

1012
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:29,640
to the effect of the world.
The words world and Earth are

1013
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,960
not are.
Not synonymous terms.

1014
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:37,279
Right.
And that a world refers to a

1015
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:41,760
planet that is inhabited.
So therefore a single planet,

1016
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:45,080
and I'm paraphrasing here, a
single planet could have many

1017
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:49,279
worlds upon it, right?
Exactly, exactly.

1018
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:53,319
And Hugh Nibley here is
reiterating the same sentiment

1019
01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:58,800
that Joseph Smith expressed.
Exactly, I love Joseph Smith

1020
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:03,960
never taught young earth
creationism, never from the very

1021
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:05,800
beginning.
So Latter day Saints, we we get

1022
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:09,399
caught up in this, you know, as
the, as the earth existed for

1023
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:11,399
6000 years.
Well, not according to Joseph

1024
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:14,720
Smith.
He's saying the Earth has

1025
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:20,640
existed for at least 2.555
billion years.

1026
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,520
OK, now I'm going to say
something here and this, this is

1027
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,560
going to make a lot of people
angry and I apologize for.

1028
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,120
This Hooray.
But I'm no David.

1029
01:09:30,319 --> 01:09:33,319
I'm going to, I'm going to say
something here that quite

1030
01:09:33,319 --> 01:09:36,200
frankly has irritated many
people.

1031
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:37,920
But it's something I believe to
my core.

1032
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,880
And I have friends who were
evangelical Christians and I

1033
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:46,800
love them right.
But we are not the same in our

1034
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:50,240
theology.
And for too long I have seen all

1035
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:53,880
branches of Mormonism, not just
LDS, not just fundamentalists

1036
01:09:55,640 --> 01:10:02,520
reach try to to attain that
forever golden cup of the title

1037
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,480
of Christian.
You know what you can have that

1038
01:10:05,480 --> 01:10:08,520
Joseph Smith was on to something
different, right?

1039
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:13,160
Very Christ centered still and
Christian in its, in its

1040
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:19,240
strictest interpretation, but
it's very different, right?

1041
01:10:19,480 --> 01:10:23,280
And sometimes I think that we
end up grasping at some of those

1042
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:28,080
things that we see our, our, our
evangelical Christian brothers

1043
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:33,720
and sisters that they have and
we think, well, OK, that makes

1044
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:35,520
sense.
And if we embrace that, then

1045
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:37,840
then we can be the same.
We can be Christians, right?

1046
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:40,920
And I'm like, stop worrying
about that label.

1047
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:45,960
Just stop, because quite
frankly, sometimes we end up

1048
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:52,600
importing things that contradict
the dispensation head by

1049
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:54,480
reaching for that label too
often.

1050
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:58,760
Yeah, speaking for the other
side of that argument, Latter

1051
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:02,320
Day Saints love Christ.
Absolutely.

1052
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:06,560
So deep, so, so deeply.
And when someone tells us you're

1053
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:10,920
not a Christian, it hurts, it's
offensive when we're like, yes,

1054
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:15,360
we are, how dare you?
And, and I think they make the

1055
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:17,600
mistake.
I mean, your point is valid.

1056
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:21,480
We don't want to gut our beliefs
to try and be the same.

1057
01:11:21,480 --> 01:11:27,440
That's not the point.
But they're so unrightfully

1058
01:11:27,440 --> 01:11:35,960
preoccupied with what Joseph
Smith expanded Christianity to

1059
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:39,680
mean that they forget that the
fundamental aspects of

1060
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:44,400
Christianity that he is the
Savior of the world, without

1061
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:46,840
whom we are all lost.
Right.

1062
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:48,960
Yeah, Yeah, Borrowers believe
that too.

1063
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:52,760
Fundamentally, in many respects,
more than you, right.

1064
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:58,840
Yeah, good point from No ma'am,
that is not history.

1065
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,000
Time out, time out, I got to
know.

1066
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:03,680
Do you think that picture is
Joseph Smith?

1067
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:08,320
I think I do now from a very
recent conversation I had with

1068
01:12:09,480 --> 01:12:14,360
his great granddaughter Gracia
Jones and her son David Denning,

1069
01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:20,440
because that came from, Oh my
gosh, it was from her relative,

1070
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:28,000
not LDS, and he had no dog in
the fight.

1071
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:31,360
And it was clearly Emma's
Locket.

1072
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:37,720
OK.
And I, I haven't had any

1073
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,800
revelation on it, but I really
want it to be.

1074
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:44,400
I'm like you.
I'm like, I really love the fact

1075
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:49,400
that Joseph Smith was rugged.
He would have to be.

1076
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:56,120
Yep, Yep, I'm like you, I I
really think it probably is, but

1077
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:58,360
more than think, I really want
it to be.

1078
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:04,040
Yeah, yeah, now.
This this brings something else

1079
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:07,440
up right?
That I was, I had read, oh, I

1080
01:13:07,440 --> 01:13:09,520
want to say better part of a
year ago.

1081
01:13:10,480 --> 01:13:15,880
And that was this idea that that
there's a possibility, given

1082
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:19,560
where Joseph was born and where
he lived for a while, he could

1083
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:21,560
have had kind of a New Englander
accent.

1084
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:26,600
Yeah.
Which which would have, I think,

1085
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:30,120
completely shocked us today.
Or I wouldn't.

1086
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:32,120
You have loved to hear John
Taylor speak.

1087
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:34,400
Yes.
This proper English accent, That

1088
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:36,560
would be so cool.
Yep, absolutely.

1089
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:41,480
Anyway, sorry sidebar.
No, no, so no, ma'am, that's not

1090
01:13:41,480 --> 01:13:45,640
history is his reputation of
fond Brody's.

1091
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:51,080
No man knows my history.
And he he he some some ideas up

1092
01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:55,960
here by saying some kind of an
inspired super evil might not

1093
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:58,480
have got away with some of the
things he did.

1094
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:02,720
But no blundering, dreaming,
undisciplined, shallow and

1095
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,880
opportunistic opportunistic
faker could have left behind

1096
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:11,480
what Joseph Smith did, both in
men's hearts and on paper.

1097
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:16,320
I think it was supposed to read
super evil genius.

1098
01:14:16,480 --> 01:14:20,360
Yeah.
And so, and this is the same

1099
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:22,440
thing that I and others have
said about his work.

1100
01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:26,560
When you look at the facts, you
left behind what Joseph Smith

1101
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:30,920
did in men's hearts and on
paper, look at the hard facts.

1102
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:34,280
No one, no faker, could have
done that.

1103
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:40,840
Absolutely.
It's no small feat simply to

1104
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,080
have picked out picked a lot of
strange and original names out

1105
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:47,960
of the air, but what shall we
say of the man who was able to

1106
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:53,840
pick the right ones?
So when I had Michael Ness on

1107
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:57,800
for, I want to say our first
episode on the Old Testament, he

1108
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:04,280
pointed out that there is a lot
of similarities to names that

1109
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:08,400
have seemed to have been kind of
Hebrew names that seem to have

1110
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:13,320
been Egyptianized, I guess, for
lack of a better term, in in the

1111
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:18,560
Book of Mormon, right?
Ammon being one close to a moon.

1112
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:22,640
Nephi.
Which is close to Amon.

1113
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:23,400
Yep.
Yeah.

1114
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:29,480
Psalm.
Mosiah, another one harkening

1115
01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:32,160
back to Moses.
It's it's, it's fascinating when

1116
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:34,240
you start looking at the
parallels and that for.

1117
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:35,360
Sure.
What we find.

1118
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:41,400
What we find are Book of Mormon
names that show some Hebrew,

1119
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:47,920
Egyptian, Babylonian, and
Phoenician naming practices.

1120
01:15:49,440 --> 01:15:51,160
Why?
That's ridiculous.

1121
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:55,440
People coming out of Hebrew
would never name their children

1122
01:15:55,440 --> 01:15:58,080
after their conquering heroes,
right?

1123
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:04,640
But when we find, Oh my gosh,
the Lakish letters, these broken

1124
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:09,920
shards of these Hebrew outposts,
which were basically these clay

1125
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:13,080
tablets with all these records
on them, that's exactly what we

1126
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:16,480
found.
They date to the same time

1127
01:16:16,480 --> 01:16:19,920
period as Lehigh, but for
whatever reason, the Hebrews are

1128
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:21,480
naming their kids after the
heroes of their.

1129
01:16:21,480 --> 01:16:28,040
Conquerors, let let me ask you
this do do we ever have any sort

1130
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:30,880
of real idea what Lehigh maybe
did for a living?

1131
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:37,920
I have read a number of things
that the fact that he was fluent

1132
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:44,880
in what we would call demotic,
which is Egyptian shorthand, the

1133
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:50,880
fact that their family had
wealth, the fact that they were

1134
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:54,760
comfortable in the desert and
had desert regalia to be able to

1135
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:58,240
live and survive in the desert.
The fact that they knew the

1136
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:02,960
incense trail that went S from
Jerusalem and the fact that they

1137
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,320
had precious metals and knew how
to work precious metals would

1138
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:08,320
indicate that they were indeed
traitors.

1139
01:17:08,480 --> 01:17:10,240
That's kind of what I had heard
too.

1140
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:14,640
I and and I think the reason
that's important in this little

1141
01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:18,400
snippet is the fact that you
would expect to see that in Book

1142
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,360
of Mormon names, right?
Because that's going to be the

1143
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:25,200
language that, quite frankly,
was universal to all.

1144
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:28,840
The other crazy thing about the
Book of Mormon names is not only

1145
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:35,080
are they bona fide ancient
names, but in the whatever

1146
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:38,640
reason, in the Book of Mormon,
the name matches the role that

1147
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:43,040
the named character is playing,
like a hero or a general or

1148
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:45,120
something like that.
And he knew he has a whole list

1149
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:48,640
of that.
That's another conversation from

1150
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:52,560
approach to the Book of Mormon.
He says no one can know too much

1151
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:54,120
about the Book of Mormon.
Period.

1152
01:17:56,040 --> 01:18:00,880
Very good this.
Is one of my favorites the gas

1153
01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:04,360
law of learning?
Any amount of information, no

1154
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:08,960
matter how small, will fill any
intellectual void, no matter how

1155
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:13,360
large.
That's that's one of those where

1156
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:16,280
you're like, OK, no, I can, I
can see that.

1157
01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:18,760
Yep.
He was merciless on academia.

1158
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:23,320
He he issues.
Which brings us to the main

1159
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:27,320
course, the 19 volumes.
Nice.

1160
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:32,360
First Volume 1, Old Testament
and Related Studies, published

1161
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:37,920
in 1986, has 11 essays.
Historicity of the Bible,

1162
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:41,600
archaeology in our religion,
myths and scriptures before

1163
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:46,600
Adam, Patriarchy and matriarchy.
And number six one we're going

1164
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:49,440
to hit tonight.
This is for last if we have any

1165
01:18:49,440 --> 01:18:55,000
brain power left, because it's,
oh, it's amazing.

1166
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:59,040
Unrolling the scrolls, some
forgotten witnesses #7 we'll

1167
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:01,920
cover this one.
Treasures in the heavens #8

1168
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:05,280
greater the words of Isaiah 9
more voices from the dust. 10

1169
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:07,720
Dead Sea Scrolls.
Kuman Companions.

1170
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:13,840
Even in that volume alone he's
talking about prehistoric

1171
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:20,800
humanoids, patriarchy,
matriarchy, Dead Sea Scrolls,

1172
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:23,480
and many, many other ancient
texts in the historicity of the

1173
01:19:23,480 --> 01:19:26,520
Bible.
That all by itself would be a

1174
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:28,920
landmark publication.
Absolutely.

1175
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:36,520
Volume to Enoch the Prophet,
also published in 1986. 4 essays

1176
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:39,280
Enoch the Prophet, the Enoch
figure, the Book of Enoch as a

1177
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:43,440
theodicy and for a strange thing
in the land, the return of the

1178
01:19:43,440 --> 01:19:45,880
Book of Enoch, which he deals
with like, wonderfully.

1179
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:47,960
And I can't wait for that
conversation.

1180
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:52,600
I mean, it's one thing to talk
about these books of Enoch,

1181
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:59,000
yeah, but to read what they say
is quite, is amazing to me.

1182
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:04,160
I am still convinced that as
Mormons, we should be paying way

1183
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:08,840
more attention to Enoch.
Because let's face it, what what

1184
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:11,880
what is kind of the end goal of
Mormonism?

1185
01:20:12,440 --> 01:20:16,720
It's to be able to build Zion,
Right.

1186
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:18,800
Oh, yeah.
That's what we're after.

1187
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:23,320
That's what we're about.
And certainly we can point to

1188
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:28,320
Melchizedek, but really, Enoch's
the guy that kind of shows.

1189
01:20:28,400 --> 01:20:29,280
Oh yeah.
Done.

1190
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,400
Right, no question about it.
And, and I've, I really believe

1191
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:37,680
that Enoch and the writings that
surround Enoch, it does take

1192
01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:42,760
some, some discernment to
extract what's what's what in

1193
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,880
there, whether it's figurative,
whether it's just a flat mistake

1194
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:48,240
by scribes, whatever the case
may be.

1195
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:54,480
Nonetheless, there are gems
there for us to well.

1196
01:20:54,480 --> 01:20:57,000
And I found they're far more
approachable and understandable

1197
01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:59,840
than a person would ever think.
Yep, absolutely.

1198
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:03,200
And the three Enoch, first,
second, third Enoch, they're

1199
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:07,240
completely different texts.
They're not a copy of the same

1200
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:09,200
text, right?
There's a 4th called the Book of

1201
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:11,520
Giants from the Dead Sea
Scrolls.

1202
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:14,840
People make a whole lot of noise
about, but they're so

1203
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:18,000
fragmentary, they really,
there's not a lot that it says

1204
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:22,480
other than confirming the giants
were a part of their theology,

1205
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:27,360
right?
Oh boy, that'll be awesome.

1206
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:32,440
Volume 3, The World and the
Prophets came out in 1987.

1207
01:21:35,200 --> 01:21:38,760
Every single one of 25 essays,
all talking about the role of

1208
01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:41,800
prophets.
Man.

1209
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:48,200
Oh my gosh.
Volume 4, One of my favorites.

1210
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:52,120
Mormonism and early
Christianity, yes.

1211
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:54,840
So are we keeping track of all
the things she's writing about

1212
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:57,200
so far?
So following four now.

1213
01:21:57,640 --> 01:21:59,880
No, I'm my brain's already
tapioca.

1214
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:05,400
Right 9 Essays Early accounts of
Jesus childhood The 40 day

1215
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:11,960
mission of Christ what my mind
my mind, I think burst into

1216
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:16,000
flames when I realized that
there's a whole body of early

1217
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:20,600
Christian literature that deals
specifically, almost exclusively

1218
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:25,120
with the 40 days he tarried with
his disciples after his

1219
01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:29,120
resurrection, about which the
New Testament says practically

1220
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:34,480
nothing, right Guess what, I
went out and started buying 40

1221
01:22:34,480 --> 01:22:36,040
day literature.
Right.

1222
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:39,760
Wow, those are so.
Those are my favorite pieces, I

1223
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:43,800
think #3 the early Christian
prayer circle.

1224
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:50,640
Hello #4 baptism for the dead.
In ancient times, given time, we

1225
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:53,320
would have covered those passing
the primitive Church, the Way of

1226
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:55,320
the Church, Jerusalem and early
Christianity.

1227
01:22:55,760 --> 01:23:00,080
What is a temple and Christian
envy of the temple.

1228
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:04,960
I've often said to people when
I'm having conversations with

1229
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:08,000
evangelicals and like other
Christian friends of the

1230
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,800
question, our belief in the
necessity of a temple.

1231
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:13,960
I said you're preoccupied with
us not having a temple.

1232
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:16,520
If I were you, I'd be concerned
about why don't we have a

1233
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:17,720
temple?
Right.

1234
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:22,880
Considering its pre eminence in
the Old Testament and the New

1235
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:26,360
Testament and the fact that it's
prophesied that there would be

1236
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:28,040
temples in the future.
Yep.

1237
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:30,320
Yeah, Christ is not the end of
that.

1238
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:36,720
Volume 5, Lehi in the desert,
the world of the Jaredites.

1239
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:43,120
And there were Jaredites and
here we have 17 plus the

1240
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:51,520
appendices, 19 amazing essays,
which talks about the the

1241
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:55,920
practices of the ancient Arabic
desert traditions, the world of

1242
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:59,720
the Jaredites, talking about the
time right after the flood.

1243
01:24:00,440 --> 01:24:03,640
And part three, there were
Jaredites as talking about the

1244
01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:08,440
old world relative to that time
period 2022 hundred BC.

1245
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:12,280
And the appendices East Coast or
West Coast and how far to

1246
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:14,880
Kimura.
I mean, I love these he gives it

1247
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:17,120
these pithy titles that make you
want to read.

1248
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:23,240
Are we getting an idea of how
far ranging his research was?

1249
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:26,320
There was nothing.
That's the other thing I love

1250
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:28,200
about Nibley.
There's nothing off limits.

1251
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:32,360
That's right, yeah.
There's nothing that is is not

1252
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:39,680
worthy of, of scrutiny and of of
research, right?

1253
01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:41,720
Everything's on the table for
Nibley.

1254
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:45,680
As he said, you can't know too
much about the Book of Mormon.

1255
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:50,200
Right.
Volume 6, An Approach to the

1256
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:57,320
Book of Mormon came out in 1988,
which has 30 chapters.

1257
01:24:57,840 --> 01:25:02,880
OK, so I I got to know because I
was not a Mormon during this

1258
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:07,360
time, right?
When these are coming out, Ken,

1259
01:25:07,360 --> 01:25:09,440
do you remember waiting for them
to come out?

1260
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,240
I mean, would you hear about
rumblings about, you know,

1261
01:25:12,240 --> 01:25:15,160
there's a new nibbly book on the
way?

1262
01:25:15,200 --> 01:25:19,040
I mean, what was that like?
Sadly this this was free

1263
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:22,760
Internet.
I mean this is very early on

1264
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:27,800
trying to think what I was doing
in 88 I I got my first word

1265
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:31,400
processor which was not even
connected to what the Internet

1266
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:32,440
was.
Right.

1267
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:36,480
In like 1990 when I was doing my
master's work and I thought it

1268
01:25:36,480 --> 01:25:45,000
was magical, right at my first
IBM computer in 9192 and my

1269
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:50,320
first Internet computer,
probably mid 90s ninety 60, I

1270
01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:52,600
just boy, I thought I had a Urim
and Thummim baby.

1271
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:58,800
That was amazing.
So it was hard to keep up with

1272
01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:01,920
what was being published without
getting those farms

1273
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:10,560
publications.
And, and especially that time,

1274
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:14,760
as Jack Welch noted, it was a
big deal within the intellectual

1275
01:26:14,760 --> 01:26:19,320
circle, but outside there was
really no way to to let people

1276
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:21,120
know, you know.
Gotcha.

1277
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:25,280
Once the whole set was finished
and you could see him in full

1278
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:29,320
color, I mean, people started to
get a little more excited about

1279
01:26:29,320 --> 01:26:30,160
it.
And especially with the

1280
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:32,200
Internet, that became a big
thing.

1281
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:38,240
So well and and I'll be
perfectly honest with you my

1282
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:43,440
life then I was so up to my neck
in academic work trying to

1283
01:26:43,440 --> 01:26:48,040
pursue my degrees and the like
that my fact I remember writing

1284
01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:50,400
to my dear friend from high
school.

1285
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:55,040
When I finished my dissertation,
I was so excited that I could

1286
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:58,280
dive back into the stuff I
really love the most.

1287
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:01,080
The study of the restored gospel
of Hugh Nibley.

1288
01:27:02,160 --> 01:27:10,760
So Volume 6, An Approach to the
Book of Mormon came from in

1289
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:16,280
1957, Church Curriculum
Committee and present and the

1290
01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:21,040
First Presidency asked Hugh
Nibley to write the priesthood

1291
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:26,200
manual for 1957.
And that's what an approach to

1292
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:29,000
the Book of Mormon is, right?
That is what this approach to

1293
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:31,720
the So what you're looking at
here is a list of the lessons

1294
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:39,840
for the year, Lehigh's world,
Lehigh's affairs, Lehigh and the

1295
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:41,560
Arabs.
I mean, these are history

1296
01:27:41,560 --> 01:27:42,920
lessons.
Yeah.

1297
01:27:43,200 --> 01:27:45,720
The doomed city politics in
Jerusalem.

1298
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:51,400
A portrait of Laban, the meaning
of the wilderness, the Dead Sea

1299
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:54,440
Scrolls, and the Book of Mormon
being taught in priesthood

1300
01:27:54,440 --> 01:27:55,760
meeting.
Hello.

1301
01:27:56,280 --> 01:28:02,480
Wow.
Life in the deserts ties between

1302
01:28:02,480 --> 01:28:04,800
the old world and the new, and
now we're talking about

1303
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:08,640
archaeology and priesthood,
meeting proper names in the Book

1304
01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:13,200
of Mormon.
Strange ships and shining

1305
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:16,120
stones.
Talk about the Jaredites.

1306
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:25,040
A not so fantastic story.
He's always so funny, you know,

1307
01:28:25,040 --> 01:28:29,840
So go ahead.
This book, well, I haven't read

1308
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:36,560
it all the way through.
I, I often refer to it and often

1309
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:40,720
times as I've read it, I've
thought to myself, is this what

1310
01:28:40,720 --> 01:28:42,360
the school of the prophets look
like?

1311
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:48,080
Right.
Is, is this, could this be kind

1312
01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:51,360
of some of the stuff, I mean,
not necessarily the content,

1313
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:54,760
right, because some of the
content wasn't discovered, but

1314
01:28:54,760 --> 01:29:00,400
this kind of of dives into
history and politics and those

1315
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:03,240
sorts of things, right.
Because you do get a definite

1316
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:05,800
flavor, especially when, when
you start talking about the,

1317
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:09,640
the, the history, what, how do
you put the history of the

1318
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:14,600
political, of the political
history of Jerusalem or

1319
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:15,800
something?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1320
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:19,440
I just find it fascinating,
right?

1321
01:29:19,440 --> 01:29:22,600
He's operating at a different
level than everybody else.

1322
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:27,120
And I I've often thought is, is
there a certain harkening back

1323
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:32,440
that's taking place here?
Speaking of the school of the

1324
01:29:32,440 --> 01:29:36,120
prophets, of what they would
study, as I've said before, my

1325
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:41,760
in laws are fundamentalists,
part of a fundamentalist sect in

1326
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:45,880
southern Utah that I, not FLDS,
just make that clear.

1327
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:51,480
And friends with many people who
I'm not necessarily related to

1328
01:29:51,480 --> 01:29:54,320
by marriage.
And one day one of these friends

1329
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:58,760
was showing me around the
mansion that one of their

1330
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:02,520
apostles, I guess I would call
them, lives in and showed me

1331
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:07,160
their library, which I mean
this, this place is amazing.

1332
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:10,000
It has indoor balconies and a
ballroom.

1333
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:15,200
It's just, it's an amazing home.
And on the 2nd floor, where one

1334
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:18,080
of the balconies overlooks the
ballroom, is the library.

1335
01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:22,360
And I looked in the like, I love
looking at people's libraries.

1336
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:25,840
And I look at the library and
they're humidly everywhere.

1337
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:29,040
Multiple copies of Temple and
Cosmos.

1338
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:30,120
And I said, what's this all
about?

1339
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:34,920
And he says, this is where the
the leadership, the brethren

1340
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:37,200
meet and this is what they're
studying.

1341
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:42,640
Temple and Cosmos.
I'm like, yeah, boy, that's how

1342
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:48,200
we do it.
So here's the story of this 1957

1343
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:51,600
priesthood manual.
The photograph is of a young.

1344
01:30:53,360 --> 01:30:56,800
David O McKay.
David O McKay, Rock in the

1345
01:30:57,080 --> 01:31:00,720
gentle stash.
Well, when Nibley wrote An

1346
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:04,160
Approach to the Book of Mormon
as the 1957 Priesthood Manual,

1347
01:31:04,720 --> 01:31:08,320
the committee turned down every
chapter.

1348
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:16,080
But President McKay overruled
the committee on every chapter.

1349
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:20,720
He said that if it's over, the
brethren's heads, let them reach

1350
01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:24,600
for it.
He left every chapter just as I

1351
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:27,200
had it.
Excusably speaking, the

1352
01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:29,320
committee fumed at the mouth and
protested.

1353
01:31:29,320 --> 01:31:32,080
We can't have it.
President McKay turned right

1354
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:34,280
around and said we jolly well
can have it.

1355
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:37,440
Let them work at it a little.
Good for him.

1356
01:31:39,440 --> 01:31:45,200
So my early impression, my
ignorant impression of you

1357
01:31:45,200 --> 01:31:47,440
Nibley, was that because he had
his head in the clouds

1358
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:50,880
intellectually that he had no
patience and her time nor

1359
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:55,160
interest in all the poorest of
us who were trying to get enough

1360
01:31:55,160 --> 01:31:58,560
milk so that we can start
consuming the meat of what he

1361
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:02,160
was doing.
That was mistaken.

1362
01:32:03,440 --> 01:32:04,800
And it also helped me
understand.

1363
01:32:04,800 --> 01:32:08,360
I, I, I've talked before.
He's so focused on his work that

1364
01:32:08,360 --> 01:32:11,120
I thought maybe he's on the
autism scale, that he doesn't

1365
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:17,200
see the rest of the world.
But this statement that he made

1366
01:32:17,960 --> 01:32:20,280
corrected me, Nibley himself
stated.

1367
01:32:20,320 --> 01:32:25,640
I cannot imagine a body of men
less likely to go astray or to

1368
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:28,080
lead anyone else astray than the
present leaders of the Church.

1369
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:31,120
The brethren have their work cut
out for them.

1370
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:34,800
Again, we talked earlier because
he knew them personally and he

1371
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:36,920
saw their struggles, he saw
their imperfections.

1372
01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:40,040
He was never disillusioned that
they were flawless or anything

1373
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:44,200
like that.
And he had empathy for what was

1374
01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:46,720
expected of these men, just men,
right?

1375
01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:51,000
He says the brethren have their
work cut out for them, and

1376
01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:54,720
strenuous work it is.
It calls for studying the gospel

1377
01:32:55,120 --> 01:32:58,560
and to see that the greatest
possible number of people in all

1378
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:02,040
parts of the world get to hear
the first principles.

1379
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:06,080
This requires constant
repetition of first principles

1380
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:09,800
to fresh audiences.
Wherever general authorities go,

1381
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:15,080
they cannot be expected to set
forth advanced ideas or

1382
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:19,880
frontline research.
So whether a person agrees with

1383
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:24,200
what he said or not, what it
shows me is that he understood

1384
01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:27,560
the difference between what he
was doing and what missionaries

1385
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:28,600
are doing.
Right.

1386
01:33:29,280 --> 01:33:33,040
All right, right, the first
priority of the brethren.

1387
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:39,200
Well, and Elder Mcconkey wrote
in the Bible dictionary under

1388
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:44,720
parables that same principle
said the parable embodies the

1389
01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:51,360
the true nature of all truth.
Only he who seeks fines, you

1390
01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:54,280
know, we present the we present
the gospel fundamentals.

1391
01:33:54,280 --> 01:33:57,720
And those who want more will
have access to more.

1392
01:33:57,720 --> 01:33:59,760
If they're truly seeking for it,
they'll know where to find it.

1393
01:34:00,440 --> 01:34:04,600
You know, and if we look back at
DNC, it's either one O 7 or one

1394
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:06,160
O 9.
I always get those two can

1395
01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:08,520
confused.
It lays out what the quorum of

1396
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:11,560
the 12 is, right?
It's a it's.

1397
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:14,280
A Yeah.
It's it's a missionary body and

1398
01:34:14,320 --> 01:34:18,000
and so in in those sorts of
things, I'm, I'm willing to cut

1399
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:20,160
slack, right.
I think, OK, well, if that's

1400
01:34:20,160 --> 01:34:25,080
their goal, then yeah, OK.
Want more from the Mormon

1401
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:28,760
Renegade podcast?
Head over to the Mormon Renegade

1402
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:32,720
Rumble page to see all the
videos from the podcast and the

1403
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:34,840
fundamental news program for
free.

1404
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:39,240
Still not enough?
Then join the Mormon Renegade

1405
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:42,360
Locals page by clicking the red
join button.

1406
01:34:42,360 --> 01:34:46,120
And for $5.00 a month, you can
have access to podcast

1407
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:49,920
transcripts, Renegade
exclusives, as well as weekly

1408
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:53,080
live stream show with the host
Dave Sanders.

1409
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:56,640
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

1410
01:34:57,440 --> 01:34:58,920
It's a mission.
One O 7, yeah.

1411
01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:03,280
It's it's a missionary body and
and so in in those sorts of

1412
01:35:03,280 --> 01:35:05,520
things, I'm, I'm willing to cut
slack, right.

1413
01:35:05,520 --> 01:35:09,400
I think, OK, well, if that's
their goal, then yeah, OK.

1414
01:35:11,040 --> 01:35:14,600
Well, that helped me too,
because I, you know, like all

1415
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:18,360
ignorant, selfish people that we
are, when we find something

1416
01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:21,880
that's exciting and wonderful,
we think everybody else has to

1417
01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:26,360
appreciate that too.
I remember in my brash younger

1418
01:35:26,360 --> 01:35:29,840
years, speaking to a Bishop of
ward, the poor Bishop and award

1419
01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:33,600
that I was in, showing him all
the stuff that farms was sending

1420
01:35:33,600 --> 01:35:36,480
me.
And I said, we need the whole

1421
01:35:36,480 --> 01:35:40,960
ward to be reading this stuff.
And he looked at me kind of

1422
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:43,520
weird, like, buddy, who do you
think you are?

1423
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:47,760
But my zeal without knowledge,
that was me.

1424
01:35:48,360 --> 01:35:53,680
No, I have, since I have since
learned that the less

1425
01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:57,440
intellectual Latter Day Saints
are just as important to the

1426
01:35:57,440 --> 01:36:00,880
Kingdom of God as those who love
you nibbly.

1427
01:36:01,400 --> 01:36:04,040
Right.
And it's not 1 is better than

1428
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:05,800
another.
Absolutely.

1429
01:36:06,480 --> 01:36:14,600
Volume 7 since comora 13 essays
Book of Mormon is scripture Phil

1430
01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:19,800
of philological notes the
philology of the text long

1431
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:24,600
forgotten Lord part scientific
questions part 4 the real

1432
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:25,960
background of the Book of
Mormon.

1433
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:31,120
And when he talks about military
history, I mean all these doors

1434
01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:34,760
that he's opening.
Bookworm study Part 5 prophetic

1435
01:36:34,760 --> 01:36:37,560
Book of Mormon good people and
bad people.

1436
01:36:37,800 --> 01:36:43,920
He sarcastically calls that one.
Volume 8 the prophetic Book of

1437
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:48,880
Mormon published in 1989.
Stick of Judah, Columbus

1438
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:54,520
kangaroo court camp meetings.
The comparative method The boy

1439
01:36:54,520 --> 01:36:58,840
Nephi in Jerusalem.
Wow, literary style of the Book

1440
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:02,840
of Mormon.
Howlers in the Book of Mormon.

1441
01:37:02,840 --> 01:37:04,040
I was going to cover that one
too.

1442
01:37:04,480 --> 01:37:09,360
Things that that the enemies of
the church would laugh at are

1443
01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:11,720
now its most convincing
evidences.

1444
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:15,760
Right.
Freeman King of the lack ish

1445
01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:21,560
letters again those those ruins
the Book of Mormon 40 years

1446
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:25,880
after.
OK I'm getting lost now.

1447
01:37:26,120 --> 01:37:30,640
Volume 9 published 1989.
Approaching Zion.

1448
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:35,760
What is Zion?
Zeal without knowledge, gifts

1449
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:38,800
from a foundation, How to get
rich.

1450
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:44,400
Talking about what it takes to
become a Zion like people. #8

1451
01:37:44,400 --> 01:37:46,680
was my favorite chapter out of
that one.

1452
01:37:48,440 --> 01:37:50,400
Work we must.
But the lunch is free.

1453
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:53,240
Number 9 is the essay that he
gave.

1454
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:56,240
They would know.
It was the the final.

1455
01:37:56,240 --> 01:37:59,360
He had an honors class, and this
was the final he gave them.

1456
01:38:00,080 --> 01:38:02,240
But what kind of work?
You have all this time and you

1457
01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:04,080
have unlimited funds.
What are you going to do?

1458
01:38:04,080 --> 01:38:06,840
And the kids in the class, he
was so disappointed, couldn't

1459
01:38:06,840 --> 01:38:09,920
get past the money.
They were so with it.

1460
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:14,400
Yeah.
Breakthroughs, change out of

1461
01:38:14,400 --> 01:38:15,800
control.
Law of consecration, The

1462
01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:18,640
Utopians meaning of the
atonement.

1463
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:23,640
So you say that in
fundamentalism, approaching Zion

1464
01:38:23,640 --> 01:38:26,360
is a.
Very popular book I've I've

1465
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:30,360
noticed more people in
fundamentalism now picking up

1466
01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:32,840
this book.
Why do you think that is?

1467
01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:36,760
I think because we're all
yearning for it, right?

1468
01:38:37,320 --> 01:38:40,320
Yeah.
If if there's something within

1469
01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:46,040
Mormonism that always seems to
ignite the imagination, it's

1470
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:49,960
really two things.
It's temple work and it's it's

1471
01:38:50,160 --> 01:38:54,840
Zion, right?
And I think that's by design,

1472
01:38:54,840 --> 01:38:57,120
right?
Because that's what Joseph Smith

1473
01:38:57,120 --> 01:38:59,040
focused on.
Right, of course.

1474
01:38:59,400 --> 01:39:02,160
Joseph didn't wasn't in the
business of building church

1475
01:39:02,160 --> 01:39:05,760
houses, right?
He he was just as comfortable to

1476
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:10,320
preach under a tree or in
somebody's house or in a

1477
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:16,040
courtyard as he would have been.
Well, there were blueprints for

1478
01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:17,920
this.
Blueprints for the city of Zion

1479
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:19,800
that was.
Kind of right, right.

1480
01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:24,600
And so he was, he was on to
something different, right?

1481
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:27,640
He was on to temples and
communities, right.

1482
01:39:28,000 --> 01:39:32,160
And I think there was an
understanding, or at least as I

1483
01:39:32,160 --> 01:39:38,880
read it, my interpretation is,
is that the temple was was the

1484
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:43,160
first step in establishing that
Zion type community, right.

1485
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:49,120
And so I think that, you know,
the temple and Zion kind of go

1486
01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:51,840
hand in hand.
What I loved about approaching

1487
01:39:51,840 --> 01:39:55,160
Zion is that probably for the
first time, because we all have

1488
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:56,720
this idea of what it's like,
right?

1489
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:02,280
And, and in in.
So this was the first time I had

1490
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:06,320
picked up a book, certainly a
scholarly kind of book, at which

1491
01:40:07,040 --> 01:40:11,760
he would take the principles and
then have the audacity to say.

1492
01:40:12,120 --> 01:40:16,360
This is what it could look like
in practical application, right?

1493
01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:20,920
And to me, that was what was so
fascinating about it is that it

1494
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:27,800
took this ethereal idea of what
and how Zion would function and

1495
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:30,520
then said, OK, now this is what
it could look like, right?

1496
01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:37,160
And so to me, this book, you
know, pardon the expression, was

1497
01:40:37,160 --> 01:40:41,440
approachable, right?
It was, it was not out of the

1498
01:40:41,440 --> 01:40:45,920
realm of even somebody with a
cursory understanding of this

1499
01:40:45,920 --> 01:40:49,760
idea of Zion could get a hold of
and really begin to start

1500
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:53,680
tearing apart, you know, how
would this sort of society

1501
01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:56,280
function?
And what I remember when I put

1502
01:40:56,280 --> 01:41:00,960
down the book, cuz I'll admit,
early on in my time as as a

1503
01:41:00,960 --> 01:41:04,680
Mormon, I struggled with this
concept of Zion where there was

1504
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:08,560
no, no, no poor or no rich,
right?

1505
01:41:08,560 --> 01:41:15,680
Because I definitely was on, on
this idea that, that, and, and I

1506
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:18,640
still believe this, that
capitalism is good, right?

1507
01:41:18,720 --> 01:41:21,560
I think it's a, it's a, it's a
net negative.

1508
01:41:21,560 --> 01:41:25,520
I, I do think that outside of
United Order and stuff, it is

1509
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:28,600
definitely the most humane
system that man has come up

1510
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:32,200
with.
And so I always found myself at

1511
01:41:32,200 --> 01:41:34,400
odds with that idea.
I'm like, well, wait a second.

1512
01:41:34,400 --> 01:41:38,600
Is, is this idea of kind of
communal living right?

1513
01:41:38,600 --> 01:41:41,880
And I had all these ideas about
what I thought that would mean.

1514
01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:45,120
Right, right, right.
And I remember putting down the

1515
01:41:45,120 --> 01:41:49,520
book after I'd read it and went,
oh, so it's none of that, right?

1516
01:41:49,520 --> 01:41:54,600
Like not socialistic in nature.
It's not communist in nature.

1517
01:41:55,760 --> 01:41:58,080
This is something different,
right?

1518
01:41:58,080 --> 01:42:02,000
Yes.
And that's what I found Nibley

1519
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:05,680
for me was the one that really
kind of expanded my vision of

1520
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:08,920
what Zion could truly be.
And it was like 5 years into me

1521
01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:11,240
being a Mormon, right?
I was still in the LDS church

1522
01:42:13,480 --> 01:42:19,960
and, and it really assuage a lot
of fears that I'd had on, on,

1523
01:42:19,960 --> 01:42:23,680
on, you know, looking at Zion
and, and what it's going to be.

1524
01:42:24,080 --> 01:42:26,960
I can't help but feel that he
would be very happy to hear

1525
01:42:26,960 --> 01:42:32,080
that, that his work helped you
understand better what Zion was

1526
01:42:32,080 --> 01:42:33,680
and allay such fears.
Yes.

1527
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:38,120
Yeah, and, and I think, I think
that Nibley is kind of enjoying

1528
01:42:38,120 --> 01:42:41,680
a renaissance now, to be honest
with you, especially I can't

1529
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:44,000
speak too much for the LDS
Church 'cause I'm just not

1530
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:45,760
running much in those circles
anymore.

1531
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:47,840
Right, Right.
But certainly within

1532
01:42:47,840 --> 01:42:52,960
fundamentalism, I'm noticing a
renewed interest there, right?

1533
01:42:52,960 --> 01:42:54,320
Wonderful.
That's wonderful.

1534
01:42:54,480 --> 01:42:58,160
And and especially this book,
Approaching Zion and Temple in

1535
01:42:58,160 --> 01:43:01,240
the Cosmos.
Well, to be honest, there isn't

1536
01:43:01,320 --> 01:43:04,200
anyone really who has replaced
him.

1537
01:43:04,960 --> 01:43:10,120
Scripture Central is probably at
the online database that has

1538
01:43:10,120 --> 01:43:14,280
taken this mantle of the
collective works of Hugh Nibley

1539
01:43:14,280 --> 01:43:17,080
and run with it.
This is where you see the guys

1540
01:43:17,080 --> 01:43:20,880
who would who go through the
doors that he'd opened and now

1541
01:43:20,880 --> 01:43:23,960
it's just, it's just free online
database for anyone and everyone

1542
01:43:23,960 --> 01:43:26,440
to look at.
Well, and, and I, I think you,

1543
01:43:26,520 --> 01:43:31,200
you do bring out an interesting
point, right, 'cause I do think

1544
01:43:31,200 --> 01:43:34,920
that that it's not an either or
kind of idea, right?

1545
01:43:35,400 --> 01:43:38,440
A lot of the stuff we find with
with Scriptural Scripture

1546
01:43:38,440 --> 01:43:42,280
Central and stuff I, I
thoroughly enjoy, but they're

1547
01:43:42,280 --> 01:43:45,680
they're almost meant to be
consumed in bite sized pieces,

1548
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:48,080
right, Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

1549
01:43:48,320 --> 01:43:49,880
Now.
More digestible, yeah.

1550
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:54,200
Right, it, it, it's, it's like,
you know, people who just want a

1551
01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:58,000
quick short about the gospel
probably won't be listening to

1552
01:43:58,000 --> 01:44:01,240
my podcast 'cause mine are more
in depth.

1553
01:44:01,240 --> 01:44:03,800
They're more, they're longer,
right?

1554
01:44:05,320 --> 01:44:08,360
And so, but both of those I
think are needed, right.

1555
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:12,240
Sometimes I look at that
shorter, shorter media as

1556
01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:15,280
something to whet your appetite
right And then when you're.

1557
01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:18,200
Well, the cool thing about that
sort of media is they have live

1558
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:22,160
links to these extensive
articles, yet some including

1559
01:44:22,160 --> 01:44:23,000
Hugh Nibley.
Of course.

1560
01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:23,600
Yep.
Yep.

1561
01:44:23,600 --> 01:44:26,360
So, yeah, no, I I think there's
a place for both.

1562
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:29,760
And like I said, I get to the
other side.

1563
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:33,720
My hope is, is that I can have
the microphone one more time and

1564
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:36,440
just say, where's Hugh?
I want to talk to Hugh Nibley

1565
01:44:36,440 --> 01:44:40,760
for one last time.
It's my parting gift to the

1566
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:43,200
audiences.
I I cross over the other side

1567
01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:44,880
so.
Right.

1568
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:47,320
The other thing that, you know,
Scripture, Central, Bookworm

1569
01:44:47,320 --> 01:44:50,080
Center, all that stuff, as
wonderful as they are, what they

1570
01:44:50,080 --> 01:44:53,560
can't duplicate is Hugh Nibley's
wit.

1571
01:44:54,040 --> 01:44:57,040
I mean, these zingers, you know,
they can't really do that.

1572
01:44:57,280 --> 01:45:01,200
They did because this was this
was his playing field.

1573
01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:05,280
Yeah.
Volume 10 The Ancient State, The

1574
01:45:05,280 --> 01:45:10,160
Rulers and the Ruled published
in 1991 like About the politics

1575
01:45:10,160 --> 01:45:13,520
of the whole ancient world 10
essays.

1576
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:17,160
I've always wanted to read and
I've never had the opportunity

1577
01:45:17,160 --> 01:45:18,920
to just sit down and and read
it.

1578
01:45:19,680 --> 01:45:23,600
This is the one that I'm least
attracted to because I'm not The

1579
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:26,120
Greeks and the Romans have never
really intrigued me because I

1580
01:45:26,120 --> 01:45:31,840
thereof I was felt that they
were derivative of older, more

1581
01:45:31,840 --> 01:45:36,720
original civilizations.
Volume 11 Tinkling cymbals and

1582
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:40,840
sounding grass.
This is the largest of them and

1583
01:45:40,840 --> 01:45:47,160
I only list here 5 big sections,
but know that the subsections of

1584
01:45:47,160 --> 01:45:50,160
all of that wouldn't fit on a
single slide.

1585
01:45:51,120 --> 01:45:51,960
I always.
Felt.

1586
01:45:52,720 --> 01:45:57,000
I always felt with this
particular work, you could, you

1587
01:45:57,000 --> 01:45:59,880
may not be an expert apologist
when you're done, but you're

1588
01:45:59,880 --> 01:46:02,920
going to be pretty well armed.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1589
01:46:02,960 --> 01:46:06,160
If if you go through this book,
and quite frankly, you don't

1590
01:46:06,160 --> 01:46:09,480
even need to sit down and read
it cover to cover, right.

1591
01:46:10,440 --> 01:46:13,040
And, and because of its name,
right.

1592
01:46:13,040 --> 01:46:16,560
And I understand why he named it
what he did and I wouldn't

1593
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:20,560
change it myself, but it it
leaves people perplexed on what

1594
01:46:20,560 --> 01:46:23,600
it could be.
But I've often said, if you got

1595
01:46:23,600 --> 01:46:26,440
to quit, if if you're trying to
defend the gospel and you don't

1596
01:46:26,440 --> 01:46:30,680
know how, this book here, you
can just go look up a topic kind

1597
01:46:30,680 --> 01:46:32,680
of.
Right at the at the very least

1598
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:36,960
he makes he familiarizes you
with the common weapons of the

1599
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:38,720
anti Mormon.
Yeah right.

1600
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:40,360
Absolutely.
Yeah.

1601
01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:47,160
Almost 700 pages.
Volume 12 Temple of Cosmos

1602
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:55,000
199220 Essays Chapters Meaning
of the temple Return to the

1603
01:46:55,000 --> 01:46:59,640
temple sacred vestments don't
have time for that circle on the

1604
01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:03,120
square don't have time for that
expanding gospel apocryphal

1605
01:47:03,120 --> 01:47:06,760
writings terrible questions, one
eternal round Genesis, the

1606
01:47:06,760 --> 01:47:11,200
written word best possible test
from the earth upon which thou

1607
01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:14,360
standest, and so on and so
forth.

1608
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:17,520
So.
I gotta tell you, I read this

1609
01:47:17,520 --> 01:47:21,080
book probably two years after I
was first endowed in the LDS

1610
01:47:21,080 --> 01:47:22,160
church.
Yeah.

1611
01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:29,800
And I remember I went over to an
older gentleman's house, really

1612
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:34,280
knowledgeable guy, and I'm like,
do I?

1613
01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:36,760
I know we're not supposed to
talk about stuff that happened

1614
01:47:36,760 --> 01:47:40,040
to the temple on the outside,
but do you have something?

1615
01:47:40,640 --> 01:47:43,680
And I remember he just kind of
gave me the side eye, right?

1616
01:47:43,680 --> 01:47:47,560
He's like kind of debating on,
on if he wants to do it or not.

1617
01:47:47,560 --> 01:47:49,520
And he's like, all right, come
with me.

1618
01:47:50,000 --> 01:47:52,640
And he loaned and he loaned me
this book.

1619
01:47:52,760 --> 01:47:56,880
And I remember the first time
you start seeing the parallels

1620
01:47:56,880 --> 01:48:04,240
between the quote, the Egyptian
endowment and, and the endowment

1621
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:08,560
as we now have it going, Oh, oh,
wow.

1622
01:48:08,560 --> 01:48:14,520
This was the first time that I
went from Joseph Smith was

1623
01:48:14,520 --> 01:48:18,920
inspired to oh, no, Joseph Smith
knew some stuff, right?

1624
01:48:19,080 --> 01:48:23,000
But he wasn't just inspired.
He knew some stuff to put this

1625
01:48:23,000 --> 01:48:28,080
back into this context and quite
frankly, opened up another world

1626
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:31,760
of thought and ideas that I'm,
I'm not going to share here yet,

1627
01:48:32,240 --> 01:48:38,120
but that absolutely blew my
mind, right?

1628
01:48:38,480 --> 01:48:43,880
And and the story is far more
contiguous than what we would

1629
01:48:43,880 --> 01:48:48,120
like to imagine.
Yeah, for me, it's the

1630
01:48:48,120 --> 01:48:52,280
difference between going to the
temple and saying this is nice,

1631
01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:55,200
this feels nice.
Oh, well, seems a little

1632
01:48:55,200 --> 01:48:58,360
different.
The difference between that I'm

1633
01:48:58,360 --> 01:49:02,680
going to the temple with full
confidence, what I'm doing is

1634
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:04,360
ancient.
Yep.

1635
01:49:04,480 --> 01:49:07,680
And originated with God.
Absolutely.

1636
01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:09,920
And the part that always gets
that I remind me of.

1637
01:49:10,480 --> 01:49:15,920
I have documents in my house
that details Jesus Christ first

1638
01:49:15,920 --> 01:49:19,880
person showing his disciples how
to do this.

1639
01:49:20,120 --> 01:49:22,800
Yep.
When you realize that, then you

1640
01:49:22,800 --> 01:49:27,160
just really dig in and take what
you're doing far more seriously

1641
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:31,240
because you realize what it is
and what a miracle it is that we

1642
01:49:31,240 --> 01:49:35,520
get to participate, you know?
I've always right, I, I remember

1643
01:49:35,520 --> 01:49:42,160
when I finished this book and my
wife 'cause look, I am the

1644
01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:45,360
simplest individual he will ever
meet, right?

1645
01:49:47,800 --> 01:49:51,240
I get the same thing for my
birthday every single year.

1646
01:49:51,400 --> 01:49:55,800
And I'm cool with it, right,
Which is I usually get a new

1647
01:49:55,800 --> 01:50:00,240
book about the gospel, right, a
really old one or a new one that

1648
01:50:00,240 --> 01:50:04,840
I find fascinating, right?
And I'll, I'll drop him to, to

1649
01:50:05,280 --> 01:50:08,920
well, now my wives, but at that
time it was just Amber, right?

1650
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:13,120
I'd be like, I'm not saying you
should, but I think you should

1651
01:50:13,120 --> 01:50:15,720
try.
And I would just slide a title

1652
01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:17,920
in front of her right around my
birthday.

1653
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:21,120
And the other was the new Madden
football game, right?

1654
01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:23,320
You want to talk about the
ultimate dichotomy?

1655
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:27,640
That was it, right?
And Sunday Ticket, that was that

1656
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:32,640
was it, right?
But I remember I had kind of

1657
01:50:32,920 --> 01:50:36,880
what, after I'd read it all the
way through cover to cover, and

1658
01:50:37,040 --> 01:50:42,040
she got it for me again the next
year and I reread it, she's

1659
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:44,000
like, so what's your take away
from that book?

1660
01:50:44,400 --> 01:50:47,920
And I said this tongue in cheek.
Now I'm tend to think about it a

1661
01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:52,360
little more seriously actually.
I was like, this book needs to

1662
01:50:52,360 --> 01:50:56,120
be handed to you when you exit
the temple for your first time.

1663
01:50:56,560 --> 01:50:59,800
Yeah.
Right as you're walking out,

1664
01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:03,560
someone says, hey, thanks for
serving in the temple today.

1665
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:05,880
Thanks for taking out your
endowments.

1666
01:51:06,280 --> 01:51:08,360
Now go home and read this and
keep.

1667
01:51:08,360 --> 01:51:10,440
Now you will.
Understand as you're reading it,

1668
01:51:11,000 --> 01:51:15,880
because I feel like that that if
we did that it would put temple

1669
01:51:15,880 --> 01:51:18,760
work in such a different light,
right?

1670
01:51:20,280 --> 01:51:25,760
And it would, it would add such
rich meaning and quite frankly,

1671
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:32,160
it would, it would defuse a lot
of the, the questions that

1672
01:51:32,160 --> 01:51:34,360
surround the endowment, right?
We do know.

1673
01:51:34,360 --> 01:51:37,120
The misinformation surrounding
the origin of the endowment.

1674
01:51:37,280 --> 01:51:39,920
Wow, a lot of people just say,
Oh well, Joseph just ripped it

1675
01:51:39,920 --> 01:51:42,360
off for the Masons.
Well, that's not it at all,

1676
01:51:42,360 --> 01:51:44,160
right?
They're not even close.

1677
01:51:44,280 --> 01:51:48,520
There, there, there are Masonic.
Now let me rephrase this.

1678
01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:56,280
The Masonic ritual has elements
of the ancient endowment correct

1679
01:51:56,440 --> 01:52:02,840
that now have now there are in
in in the modern day endowment

1680
01:52:03,360 --> 01:52:09,880
and I say modern day and I'm
talking post post restoration in

1681
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:15,600
that temple ordinances.
You can find things that Masons

1682
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:18,880
share in that.
Right 2 the estimated I estimate

1683
01:52:18,880 --> 01:52:22,640
between 2 and 5%.
You and I talked about that, but

1684
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:27,920
they focus on that 2 to 5% cast
a light, a cloud of dispersion.

1685
01:52:28,360 --> 01:52:32,200
Of course, Temple, you read this
book, you will walk away and go

1686
01:52:32,200 --> 01:52:34,720
no, no, no, no.
The Masons had some had some

1687
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:40,560
some right, But this is far more
ancient than the Scottish or

1688
01:52:40,560 --> 01:52:44,160
York right?
That's exactly right.

1689
01:52:44,160 --> 01:52:49,200
I I, I will tell friends and
then we go.

1690
01:52:49,200 --> 01:52:57,560
I'm grabbing my copy here, but
of my publication that takes

1691
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:02,160
temple and cosmos and multiplies
it relative to teachings of the

1692
01:53:02,160 --> 01:53:04,280
temple.
Yep, because he talks about

1693
01:53:04,280 --> 01:53:07,360
circle and square.
He talks about the clothing.

1694
01:53:07,360 --> 01:53:14,480
Meaning my book is able to
gather together sources that he

1695
01:53:14,480 --> 01:53:17,640
didn't have available to him at
that time yet.

1696
01:53:19,000 --> 01:53:22,600
And so I'll, I'll tell friends,
I'll say, you know, if they have

1697
01:53:22,600 --> 01:53:25,840
a copy of my book, I'll say
after you go to the temple, I

1698
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:31,400
want you to read from page 281
to page 336.

1699
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:35,800
Yep, of my book.
And what you will find in that

1700
01:53:35,800 --> 01:53:41,560
book is every single thing that
you did in that Saint George

1701
01:53:41,560 --> 01:53:49,000
temple, anciently, Yep, Yep,
every single thing.

1702
01:53:49,000 --> 01:53:53,720
So Freemasonry 2 to 5%.
Ancient texts dealing with

1703
01:53:53,720 --> 01:53:56,840
temple rites that are
unrecognizable to the rest of

1704
01:53:56,840 --> 01:53:59,720
the world 100%.
Right.

1705
01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:04,360
Including the proper context.
You know the other thing that

1706
01:54:04,360 --> 01:54:09,880
this book did for me, and I'm a
guy who loves to go out and

1707
01:54:09,880 --> 01:54:13,520
explore new things, right?
And there was a time where I was

1708
01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:21,840
really into to earth, earth, you
know, earthen formations, right,

1709
01:54:21,840 --> 01:54:25,960
Done by, yeah, right.
And Nibley in this book, and I

1710
01:54:25,960 --> 01:54:29,120
can't remember where exactly, he
talks about the squared circle,

1711
01:54:30,920 --> 01:54:33,560
right?
And all of a sudden when you

1712
01:54:33,560 --> 01:54:40,280
start understanding that and you
look at ancient rock formations,

1713
01:54:40,360 --> 01:54:45,800
right, that were done by ancient
man or or certain mound

1714
01:54:45,800 --> 01:54:49,560
formations, you start going, oh,
now wait a second, this isn't

1715
01:54:50,520 --> 01:54:54,440
right.
This book will blow people's

1716
01:54:54,440 --> 01:54:57,880
minds in a good way.
You will be stretched and you

1717
01:54:57,880 --> 01:55:01,400
will never look at the temple
the same way again.

1718
01:55:01,880 --> 01:55:06,120
Yeah, yeah.
Such a beautiful thing I and

1719
01:55:06,120 --> 01:55:11,360
it's the difference between a
person looking at the temple and

1720
01:55:11,360 --> 01:55:16,000
going well, that was a weird
thing Joseph Smith cooked up and

1721
01:55:16,000 --> 01:55:19,720
looking at the temple and going
God instituted this from the

1722
01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:21,200
time of Adam.
Yep.

1723
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:27,920
And the evidence is
overwhelming, is spread

1724
01:55:27,920 --> 01:55:32,800
throughout history that this was
had in previous dispensations.

1725
01:55:33,200 --> 01:55:37,840
Absolutely.
Volume 13 Brother Brigham

1726
01:55:37,840 --> 01:55:41,000
challenges the Saints.
He was when he was working for

1727
01:55:41,000 --> 01:55:43,360
Windsor, before he went to
Brigham Young.

1728
01:55:44,160 --> 01:55:49,920
They were editing, oh, some
Brigham Young project.

1729
01:55:49,920 --> 01:55:51,840
I can't remember which
publication it was.

1730
01:55:52,240 --> 01:55:55,440
And this really was the
opportunity for Hugh Nibley to

1731
01:55:55,440 --> 01:55:58,400
take a deep dive into teachings
of Brigham Young.

1732
01:55:58,400 --> 01:56:02,560
And that's where, when and where
he fell in love with Brigham

1733
01:56:02,560 --> 01:56:09,120
Young's teachings.
So here we have 19 essays from

1734
01:56:09,280 --> 01:56:15,560
Brother Brigham and tonight
we'll go over #13 educating the

1735
01:56:15,560 --> 01:56:20,360
Saints, but all Brigham Young
and that was published in 94.

1736
01:56:22,160 --> 01:56:30,360
Volume 14 was published in 2000.
Abraham in Egypt, 13 chapters,

1737
01:56:30,360 --> 01:56:37,560
13 essays speaking all the
aspects regarding Abraham as

1738
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:41,880
particularly how it relates to
our book of Abraham, where it

1739
01:56:41,880 --> 01:56:45,480
came from, how it relates to the
other Abrahamic traditions in

1740
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:49,000
history.
My favorite chapter has to be, I

1741
01:56:49,000 --> 01:56:51,120
think Chapter 11, The Trouble
with Ham.

1742
01:56:52,400 --> 01:56:56,640
This is where you see Hugh
Nibley at his most progressive

1743
01:56:56,640 --> 01:57:04,680
in terms of being non racist.
He was way ahead of that game.

1744
01:57:05,240 --> 01:57:09,000
One of the things he said that
I'm trying to remember, like I

1745
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:13,160
wish there was time to have
covered that chapter given the

1746
01:57:13,160 --> 01:57:15,840
fact that, you know, and of
course, because of his time

1747
01:57:15,840 --> 01:57:18,880
period in the 60s, our black
brothers and sisters were

1748
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:23,720
referred to as Negroes.
And he would say because of the

1749
01:57:23,720 --> 01:57:26,400
circumstances of their birth,
you will see far more Negroes in

1750
01:57:26,400 --> 01:57:29,400
the celestial Kingdom then you
will see state presidents.

1751
01:57:31,960 --> 01:57:38,160
And he he talks about him and he
talks about the marriage of

1752
01:57:38,160 --> 01:57:42,320
Joseph and Austin it and what
that represents in terms of the

1753
01:57:42,320 --> 01:57:46,680
unification of the races.
Because in his view, from his

1754
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:50,080
perspective and his study of
Egyptian history, Ossinet

1755
01:57:50,080 --> 01:57:56,000
Joseph's wife was black so that
all the descendants of Ephraim

1756
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:03,000
and Manasseh had it had the
blood of Ham in them, which was

1757
01:58:03,080 --> 01:58:05,200
and maybe he says God is trying
to teach us.

1758
01:58:05,640 --> 01:58:07,760
He doesn't want us to divide
ourselves.

1759
01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:10,480
He wants us to be united.
He wants us to be one people.

1760
01:58:11,080 --> 01:58:11,520
Right.
Anyway.

1761
01:58:11,800 --> 01:58:15,240
And that has loads of
implications.

1762
01:58:15,240 --> 01:58:21,160
So volume 15, Apostles and
bishops in early Christianity.

1763
01:58:21,160 --> 01:58:24,800
So now he's talking about
historical Christianity in the

1764
01:58:24,800 --> 01:58:31,720
first few centuries, 2005, also
in 2005, probably the most

1765
01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:34,960
complex publication because of
all of the pictures and it is

1766
01:58:34,960 --> 01:58:38,080
the largest of the it's, it
doesn't follow the same format

1767
01:58:38,480 --> 01:58:42,640
because of all the pictures and
they're depicting the the

1768
01:58:42,640 --> 01:58:45,800
Egyptian reliefs.
But for a guy like me who would

1769
01:58:45,800 --> 01:58:50,240
have done tried to do a college
thesis on Green eggs and ham, I

1770
01:58:50,240 --> 01:58:52,560
mean the amount of pictures in
that book make it just

1771
01:58:52,560 --> 01:58:54,920
absolutely entertaining.
So.

1772
01:58:56,440 --> 01:58:59,920
Well, this is a deep dive into
the Joseph Smith Papyri and how

1773
01:58:59,920 --> 01:59:05,320
it relates to ancient Egypt and,
and it's really like the

1774
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:07,280
commentary, the nature and the
purpose of the book of

1775
01:59:07,280 --> 01:59:09,000
breathings.
He has a lot of thoughts about

1776
01:59:09,560 --> 01:59:15,240
the Joseph Smith Papyri, which
is the name for those fragments.

1777
01:59:15,240 --> 01:59:17,440
And I, I can't emphasize the
word fragments enough.

1778
01:59:18,320 --> 01:59:24,200
The classic mistake that anti
Mormons try to get Mormons to

1779
01:59:24,400 --> 01:59:29,120
misunderstand is that what was
gifted to the church in 1967 was

1780
01:59:29,120 --> 01:59:34,800
all of the papyri that the
church bought while they were in

1781
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:39,320
Kirtland, and that is utterly
and completely false.

1782
01:59:39,640 --> 01:59:41,480
Right.
What was gifted to the church in

1783
01:59:41,480 --> 01:59:47,480
1967 represents at most 10% of
the scrolls that he had in his

1784
01:59:47,480 --> 01:59:51,040
possession and was working with.
Absolutely.

1785
01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:54,560
And we lost a large portion of
them in the Chicago.

1786
01:59:54,560 --> 01:59:58,640
Fire The vast majority and
historical witnesses say that

1787
01:59:58,640 --> 02:00:01,680
Joseph Smith was working from
the longer scroll.

1788
02:00:02,080 --> 02:00:03,760
Right.
Which some say at most it was

1789
02:00:03,760 --> 02:00:07,160
almost 40 feet long.
That is not these little

1790
02:00:07,160 --> 02:00:09,960
fragments that we have came from
one.

1791
02:00:09,960 --> 02:00:14,440
After Joseph Smith's death, the
collection was divided into two.

1792
02:00:14,440 --> 02:00:17,600
The ragged edges were cut off
and mounted in frames on the

1793
02:00:17,600 --> 02:00:23,400
wall by Joseph Smother.
The larger part of the

1794
02:00:23,400 --> 02:00:28,320
collection was sold to the
Chicago Museum, which burned in

1795
02:00:28,320 --> 02:00:32,240
the Great Chicago Fire.
So and So what we in the Joseph

1796
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:35,400
Smith propriety.
What we have is what is commonly

1797
02:00:35,400 --> 02:00:37,840
known as the Book of Breathings,
which is a burial, a common

1798
02:00:37,840 --> 02:00:41,800
funerary text.
But nevertheless he takes what

1799
02:00:41,800 --> 02:00:45,120
we have and it's one of the few
remaining examples of that.

1800
02:00:45,120 --> 02:00:48,640
And it's a a fairly good example
of the book of readings and how

1801
02:00:48,640 --> 02:00:51,920
that relates to the teachings of
the restored gospel.

1802
02:00:52,440 --> 02:01:00,480
So in the Endowment Volume 17
eyewitness eloquent he he nibbly

1803
02:01:00,480 --> 02:01:02,680
on himself and others and the
temple.

1804
02:01:02,680 --> 02:01:10,240
This is where we get the the the
video The Faith of an Observer

1805
02:01:10,240 --> 02:01:13,080
where he talks about his life
afterlife experience, his life

1806
02:01:13,080 --> 02:01:16,640
after death experience, where
where we get the written text of

1807
02:01:16,640 --> 02:01:27,400
that video, among other things.
33 essays I'm running out of

1808
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:28,920
brain juice.
This is too much.

1809
02:01:29,440 --> 02:01:33,760
Volume 18, Approach to the Book
of Abraham, published in 2009,

1810
02:01:34,320 --> 02:01:40,120
where he goes into depth of the
first facsimile and he talks

1811
02:01:40,120 --> 02:01:43,240
about the meaning of the
Kirtland Egyptian papers that

1812
02:01:43,240 --> 02:01:45,560
were found relative to all of
that.

1813
02:01:48,440 --> 02:01:55,160
And finally, volume 19 published
2010 after his death, One

1814
02:01:55,160 --> 02:01:57,400
eternal round.
It was supposed to be his Magnus

1815
02:01:57,400 --> 02:02:00,600
opus.
He thought that he could finish

1816
02:02:00,600 --> 02:02:03,600
this before he died, where he
took take everything he's ever

1817
02:02:03,600 --> 02:02:07,240
learned and taught and to try
and circumscribe it into one

1818
02:02:07,240 --> 02:02:12,120
great central message.
And you didn't quite make it, so

1819
02:02:12,520 --> 02:02:15,360
you didn't.
Want to say 1 great message, I

1820
02:02:15,360 --> 02:02:17,600
know where you were going.
What?

1821
02:02:18,480 --> 02:02:19,880
I don't know what you're talking
about.

1822
02:02:20,080 --> 02:02:24,680
I know 1 great hole, one eternal
round.

1823
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:28,720
In any case, Michael Rhodes.
Egyptologist Michael Rhodes has

1824
02:02:28,720 --> 02:02:32,640
done everything.
Retired military was tasked with

1825
02:02:32,640 --> 02:02:36,680
taking all of Unibbly's notes,
which were considerable, and

1826
02:02:36,680 --> 02:02:40,200
making a book out of it.
And that's what we have here.

1827
02:02:43,280 --> 02:02:48,320
And here we have critics.
Myth, Abraham, the Great year,

1828
02:02:48,320 --> 02:02:52,040
right?
Hypocephalus, Ascension dramas,

1829
02:02:52,960 --> 02:02:56,240
Joseph Smith, hermetic
tradition, Hypocephalus, the

1830
02:02:56,240 --> 02:02:59,960
Kabbalah, Alexander the Great,
Nimrod in geometry.

1831
02:02:59,960 --> 02:03:06,960
Wow, that's a lot.
And so so when we say that the

1832
02:03:06,960 --> 02:03:09,200
breadth of his knowledge
research is almost

1833
02:03:10,400 --> 02:03:11,920
indescribable.
This is why.

1834
02:03:12,400 --> 02:03:15,760
Yeah, This is why we've gone
down this path of 19 volumes,

1835
02:03:15,760 --> 02:03:18,120
trying to give you some sense of
what is in each.

1836
02:03:18,600 --> 02:03:25,320
Absolutely.
Now dessert, Ken's favorites 3.

1837
02:03:27,920 --> 02:03:30,960
So in volume 13, Brother Brigham
Challenges the Saints.

1838
02:03:30,960 --> 02:03:33,880
There's an essay entitled
Educating the Saints, published

1839
02:03:33,880 --> 02:03:40,400
in 1994.
So quoting Brigham Young, Nibley

1840
02:03:40,400 --> 02:03:45,400
writes, What are we here for?
To learn, to enjoy more, and to

1841
02:03:45,400 --> 02:03:48,080
increase in knowledge and in
experience.

1842
02:03:49,120 --> 02:03:51,080
Nibley says learning is our
proper calling.

1843
02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:55,840
Quoting Brigham again, we shall
never cease to learn unless we

1844
02:03:55,840 --> 02:03:57,960
apostasize.
Can you understand that?

1845
02:03:59,600 --> 02:04:01,640
I mean, these just carry on what
Joseph Smith taught.

1846
02:04:02,520 --> 02:04:05,760
God has given us mental and
physical powers to be improved,

1847
02:04:06,600 --> 02:04:10,160
and along with them our senses,
if properly educated, are

1848
02:04:10,160 --> 02:04:13,960
channels of endless Felicity to
us.

1849
02:04:16,200 --> 02:04:19,920
So Brigham was, Oh my goodness,
from what little he had access

1850
02:04:19,920 --> 02:04:26,760
to, the expansive thinking that
he was capable of is astonishing

1851
02:04:26,760 --> 02:04:28,480
to me still.
Absolutely.

1852
02:04:30,280 --> 02:04:33,960
All systems are go for the
expanding mind, Brigham.

1853
02:04:34,360 --> 02:04:37,600
Let us not narrow ourselves up
for the world with all it's a

1854
02:04:37,600 --> 02:04:40,960
variety of useful information
and it's rich hoard of hidden

1855
02:04:40,960 --> 02:04:45,680
treasure is before us, and
eternity, with all its sparkling

1856
02:04:45,680 --> 02:04:48,920
intelligence, lofty aspirations
and unspeakable glories is

1857
02:04:48,920 --> 02:04:54,320
before us.
Nibley, the news is all good is

1858
02:04:54,320 --> 02:04:58,840
all good.
Oh, what did I forever Brigham?

1859
02:04:59,080 --> 02:05:03,880
And when we have passed into the
sphere where Joseph is, there is

1860
02:05:03,880 --> 02:05:07,760
still another department, and
then another, and another, and

1861
02:05:07,760 --> 02:05:12,400
so on to an eternal progression
in exaltation and eternal lives.

1862
02:05:13,120 --> 02:05:15,560
That is the exaltation I am
looking for.

1863
02:05:16,400 --> 02:05:19,720
When we have lived millions of
years in the presence of God and

1864
02:05:19,720 --> 02:05:22,440
angels, shall we then cease
learning?

1865
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:27,480
No, or eternity ceases nibly,
first and last.

1866
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:30,520
The gospel is learning
unlimited.

1867
02:05:33,320 --> 02:05:37,000
So there's, oh, you got more?
Never mind, I'll wait till

1868
02:05:37,000 --> 02:05:40,560
you're done.
Going to be while speak up.

1869
02:05:41,520 --> 02:05:44,720
So that that first part there,
there is so much there to

1870
02:05:44,720 --> 02:05:50,560
unpack, right?
And and one of those that that

1871
02:05:50,560 --> 02:05:55,440
immediately jumped out to me was
this idea that we have spiritual

1872
02:05:55,640 --> 02:06:00,320
and physical gifts that were to
continue to learn upon.

1873
02:06:00,320 --> 02:06:02,480
Is that how that was phrased?
Go back one slide.

1874
02:06:05,760 --> 02:06:08,840
God has given us mental and
physical powers to be improved.

1875
02:06:09,280 --> 02:06:12,000
OK.
This is one of the things that I

1876
02:06:12,000 --> 02:06:14,200
love about Joseph Smith in the
restoration.

1877
02:06:15,120 --> 02:06:22,320
For so long humanity has been
beaten down because of our, our

1878
02:06:22,320 --> 02:06:27,520
humanity, our mortality, right?
And, and we certainly see that

1879
02:06:27,640 --> 02:06:30,560
even even in something that we
read earlier where, you know,

1880
02:06:30,560 --> 02:06:33,000
the natural man is an enemy to
God, right?

1881
02:06:35,520 --> 02:06:40,640
For the first time in my
estimation, within Christianity

1882
02:06:41,880 --> 02:06:46,120
there was this idea that your
humanity does not have to be an

1883
02:06:46,120 --> 02:06:49,600
impediment on your way to
meeting deity.

1884
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:53,880
That's right that it's.
The body is not inherently evil.

1885
02:06:54,280 --> 02:06:56,040
Right.
And and that even those

1886
02:06:56,160 --> 02:07:00,080
appetites aren't evil.
They're evil when they're left

1887
02:07:00,080 --> 02:07:01,720
unchecked.
That's right.

1888
02:07:02,120 --> 02:07:05,840
That's right.
And this idea of the the

1889
02:07:05,840 --> 02:07:10,400
corporeal, the the, the
tangible, the, the material that

1890
02:07:10,400 --> 02:07:13,360
that can be holy as well.
And indeed, that's its ultimate

1891
02:07:13,360 --> 02:07:17,960
destiny, right?
And, and it's, it's not so much

1892
02:07:18,000 --> 02:07:21,960
a different kind of happiness,
but the same kind of unhappiness

1893
02:07:21,960 --> 02:07:26,800
you enjoy here, only magnified,
yes, revolutionary teachings

1894
02:07:26,800 --> 02:07:32,040
within Mormonism and
revolutionary teachings within

1895
02:07:32,040 --> 02:07:34,240
religion, period.
Yes.

1896
02:07:34,880 --> 02:07:39,920
And, and that's what I think
sometimes we miss out on, right,

1897
02:07:40,160 --> 02:07:44,160
is this idea that no, no, no,
your, your humanity is not an

1898
02:07:44,160 --> 02:07:49,200
impediment to the divine.
You need your humanity to meet

1899
02:07:49,200 --> 02:07:52,760
God.
And that will be your ultimate

1900
02:07:52,760 --> 02:07:56,920
state if you reach Exaltation
cause those passions will still

1901
02:07:56,920 --> 02:08:01,760
be there, but they will have to
be bridled and used in their

1902
02:08:01,760 --> 02:08:04,480
proper order.
Yep, Yep.

1903
02:08:06,920 --> 02:08:10,160
This is typical Brigham.
Shall I sit down and read the

1904
02:08:10,160 --> 02:08:12,720
Bible, the Book of Mormon and
the Book of Covenants all the

1905
02:08:12,720 --> 02:08:16,080
time, Says one.
Yes, if you please.

1906
02:08:16,080 --> 02:08:19,200
And when you have done, you may
be nothing but a sectarian.

1907
02:08:19,200 --> 02:08:24,320
After all, it is your duty to
study everything upon the face

1908
02:08:24,320 --> 02:08:28,120
of the earth in addition to
reading those books.

1909
02:08:31,520 --> 02:08:34,200
Basically what Joseph Smith
says, but in a very direct

1910
02:08:34,360 --> 02:08:35,880
manner that is easily
understood.

1911
02:08:36,800 --> 02:08:39,920
Another one of my favorites.
If any of you feel that there is

1912
02:08:39,920 --> 02:08:45,320
no life in your meetings, then
it becomes your your duty to go

1913
02:08:45,480 --> 02:08:49,400
and instill life into that
meeting and do your part to

1914
02:08:49,400 --> 02:08:52,840
produce an increase of the
spirit and power of God in the

1915
02:08:52,840 --> 02:08:59,520
meetings in your locality.
You know, it's like I remember

1916
02:08:59,520 --> 02:09:02,800
thinking, we, we attend our
meetings for at least two

1917
02:09:02,800 --> 02:09:08,320
reasons, to be fed and also to
help feed, you know, to, to, to

1918
02:09:08,320 --> 02:09:10,760
contribute.
We often forget that, you know,

1919
02:09:10,760 --> 02:09:13,000
we, we, well, the lesson wasn't
very good today.

1920
02:09:13,000 --> 02:09:15,840
Well, did you ask any questions?
Right, You know, right.

1921
02:09:15,840 --> 02:09:19,280
No, that's exactly right.
And in this way, I've often said

1922
02:09:19,280 --> 02:09:22,600
the gospel is kind of
capitalistic, right?

1923
02:09:23,680 --> 02:09:28,280
In a sense, we, we are saved,
right?

1924
02:09:28,280 --> 02:09:31,840
And, and this is where I think
we lose a lot of our evangelical

1925
02:09:31,840 --> 02:09:35,720
brothers and sisters, right?
Because we use the term saved,

1926
02:09:35,920 --> 02:09:38,600
but we mean it in a different
connotation, right?

1927
02:09:38,880 --> 02:09:42,600
We believe in the salvation that
Jesus offers, right?

1928
02:09:42,840 --> 02:09:48,760
That is a free gift, right?
However, Mormonism teaches

1929
02:09:48,760 --> 02:09:52,480
something more expansive.
Once that's in place, now

1930
02:09:52,480 --> 02:09:54,480
there's exaltation.
Right.

1931
02:09:55,120 --> 02:09:58,000
And which in which in truth is
taught in the Bible.

1932
02:09:58,000 --> 02:10:00,040
They just conveniently leave
that out.

1933
02:10:00,040 --> 02:10:03,400
John, Chapter 5.
Exactly, exactly.

1934
02:10:03,400 --> 02:10:12,600
And so in this right is this
idea that that there's more to

1935
02:10:12,600 --> 02:10:16,840
be had, but you have to put in
the work, right?

1936
02:10:17,280 --> 02:10:22,000
And this is where, you know,
certainly salvation is, is a

1937
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:26,440
free gift, but exaltation is
something you will get out of

1938
02:10:26,440 --> 02:10:29,760
it, what you put into it.
It's very, it's kind of

1939
02:10:29,760 --> 02:10:34,040
capitalistic in that way, right?
Call it what you want, the Bible

1940
02:10:34,040 --> 02:10:37,720
calls it the law of the harvest.
Yep, you reap what you sow.

1941
02:10:37,960 --> 02:10:40,160
Absolutely.
How much more simple could that

1942
02:10:40,160 --> 02:10:42,640
be?
And, and but that filters down,

1943
02:10:42,640 --> 02:10:49,240
right, just as you were, as, as
Brigham says here, so often I

1944
02:10:49,240 --> 02:10:52,040
hear people say, well, why would
I go to church, right?

1945
02:10:52,040 --> 02:10:54,600
I mean, we're just going to sit
down where I talk some more.

1946
02:10:55,280 --> 02:10:59,240
And my question is often, well,
who's missing out on you not

1947
02:10:59,240 --> 02:11:01,800
being there?
What insights can you bring to

1948
02:11:01,800 --> 02:11:04,480
the table that the rest of us
need?

1949
02:11:05,920 --> 02:11:08,920
Yeah, and it's not, it's not
just kind of, it's a selfish

1950
02:11:08,960 --> 02:11:11,320
view of looking at it.
Don't you feel any

1951
02:11:11,320 --> 02:11:18,040
responsibility to others anyway?
Brigham Young Again, that

1952
02:11:18,040 --> 02:11:22,760
diffidence or timidity we must
dispense with when it becomes

1953
02:11:22,760 --> 02:11:25,800
our duty to talk.
We ought to be willing to talk.

1954
02:11:26,560 --> 02:11:30,440
Interchanging our ideas and
exhibiting that which we believe

1955
02:11:30,440 --> 02:11:34,280
and understand affords us an
opportunity for detecting and

1956
02:11:34,280 --> 02:11:38,800
correcting errors nibbly.
The expanding mind must be

1957
02:11:38,800 --> 02:11:43,080
openly and frankly critical.
Come hell or high counsel.

1958
02:11:44,080 --> 02:11:49,480
Without that, we get quoting
Brigham too much of a sameness

1959
02:11:49,480 --> 02:11:52,040
in this community.
Brigham goes on.

1960
02:11:52,040 --> 02:11:56,920
I am not a stereotyped Latter
Day St. and I do not believe in

1961
02:11:56,920 --> 02:12:00,640
the doctrine.
Are we going to stand still away

1962
02:12:00,640 --> 02:12:03,320
with stereotyped Mormons?
Wow.

1963
02:12:04,240 --> 02:12:06,880
I loved that.
That's always stuck with me.

1964
02:12:07,920 --> 02:12:10,120
I mean the whole we the fact
that we all want to try to be

1965
02:12:10,120 --> 02:12:12,800
Peter priesthood is a false
doctrine.

1966
02:12:13,440 --> 02:12:18,240
It, it absolutely is.
And, and it's such a fine line,

1967
02:12:18,240 --> 02:12:22,720
right?
I mean, because if there's one

1968
02:12:22,720 --> 02:12:26,040
thing that I'm certainly
critical of in Mormonism in

1969
02:12:26,040 --> 02:12:29,600
total is this idea of us all
looking the same, all talking in

1970
02:12:29,600 --> 02:12:34,520
the same sound, right?
And it's refreshing to know that

1971
02:12:34,520 --> 02:12:38,840
that was not what Joseph or
Brigham seem to have in mind

1972
02:12:38,840 --> 02:12:41,600
here, Right I.
Nor Paul in the New Testament.

1973
02:12:41,600 --> 02:12:44,600
Nor anybody.
Right, Yep, Yep, you don't have

1974
02:12:44,600 --> 02:12:48,440
to abandon who you are at your
core, right.

1975
02:12:49,720 --> 02:12:53,480
You may have to give up certain
traditions of your father's

1976
02:12:53,560 --> 02:12:57,840
right?
But, but having said that, I

1977
02:12:57,840 --> 02:13:03,200
don't think anybody would in in
those days be against you

1978
02:13:03,200 --> 02:13:08,520
keeping your traditions right if
if those are good traditions

1979
02:13:08,520 --> 02:13:13,240
right or keeping your ethnicity
alive in you, I.

1980
02:13:13,440 --> 02:13:17,160
I don't think the Kingdom of God
requires our differences.

1981
02:13:17,240 --> 02:13:19,640
Yep, that without our
differences the Kingdom wouldn't

1982
02:13:19,640 --> 02:13:23,480
function.
Absolutely, absolutely good

1983
02:13:23,480 --> 02:13:26,240
stuff.
The law of individual

1984
02:13:26,240 --> 02:13:31,200
differences.
It has been called Brigham in

1985
02:13:31,200 --> 02:13:35,040
things pertaining to this life.
The lack of knowledge manifested

1986
02:13:35,040 --> 02:13:40,040
by us as a people is
disgraceful, he goes on.

1987
02:13:40,640 --> 02:13:44,320
I have seen months and months in
this city when I could have wept

1988
02:13:44,320 --> 02:13:48,600
like a whipped child to see the
awful stupidity of the people.

1989
02:13:49,480 --> 02:13:52,640
I feel like taking men and women
by the hair of their heads,

1990
02:13:52,640 --> 02:13:56,520
figuratively speaking, and
slinging them miles and miles

1991
02:13:56,520 --> 02:13:59,800
and like crying.
Stop before you ruin yourselves.

1992
02:14:03,560 --> 02:14:06,760
Can I just say I just love some
Brigham right?

1993
02:14:06,760 --> 02:14:11,280
Like every once in a while.
Yeah, that wouldn't fly today,

1994
02:14:11,280 --> 02:14:13,640
would it?
But I'll tell you what I mean

1995
02:14:13,640 --> 02:14:16,640
back.
That was the rhetorical style.

1996
02:14:17,000 --> 02:14:23,360
Yep.
And in some sects of Mormonism

1997
02:14:23,360 --> 02:14:27,280
today, that tradition is beloved
and continues.

1998
02:14:28,320 --> 02:14:31,120
Right.
I heard a talk at a funeral

1999
02:14:31,120 --> 02:14:36,200
recently of a fundamentalist
that is little girls.

2000
02:14:37,000 --> 02:14:39,760
She and her sister would would
pretend church.

2001
02:14:40,240 --> 02:14:42,280
They did.
They'd take all their little

2002
02:14:42,280 --> 02:14:44,680
dolls and stuffed animals, sit
them on the couch and yell at

2003
02:14:44,680 --> 02:14:50,560
them.
Yep.

2004
02:14:51,400 --> 02:14:52,520
Yep.
Wow.

2005
02:14:55,720 --> 02:15:00,520
Now, at the end of quoting
Rigamanala's feelings about

2006
02:15:00,520 --> 02:15:05,120
learning and education, Hugh
Nibley makes the application to

2007
02:15:05,120 --> 02:15:11,840
us today.
He says as a result, whenever we

2008
02:15:11,840 --> 02:15:14,760
move out of our tiny, busy
orbits of administration and

2009
02:15:14,760 --> 02:15:20,000
display, we find ourselves in a
terrifying intellectual vacuum.

2010
02:15:21,160 --> 02:15:24,920
Terrifying, of course, only
because we might be found out.

2011
02:15:25,800 --> 02:15:30,520
But that is just the trouble.
Having defaulted drastically in

2012
02:15:30,520 --> 02:15:34,600
terms of President Young's
instructions, we now stand as a

2013
02:15:34,600 --> 02:15:41,320
brainless giant, a pushover for
any smart kid or cultist or

2014
02:15:41,320 --> 02:15:45,720
fattest or crank who even
pretends to have read a few

2015
02:15:45,720 --> 02:15:49,120
books.
That puts them beyond our depth.

2016
02:15:49,760 --> 02:15:54,680
And so we, I include myself, he
says humbly, stand helplessly

2017
02:15:54,680 --> 02:15:58,720
and foolishly by dangling are
bonnet and plume.

2018
02:15:58,720 --> 02:16:02,320
While hundreds of students and
missionaries of members and

2019
02:16:02,320 --> 02:16:06,560
enemies of the Church alike
presumed to challenge and reject

2020
02:16:06,560 --> 02:16:12,000
the teachings of Joseph Smith on
evidence so flimsy that no half

2021
02:16:12,000 --> 02:16:14,600
educated person would give it a
second thought.

2022
02:16:16,560 --> 02:16:20,520
An awesome outpouring of newly
discovered documents of direct

2023
02:16:20,520 --> 02:16:24,200
bearing on the history and
teachings of the Church is even

2024
02:16:24,200 --> 02:16:29,400
now in full spate, amazing and
confounding Jewish and Christian

2025
02:16:29,400 --> 02:16:33,320
scholars, but bursting with good
news for the Latter Day Saints

2026
02:16:34,400 --> 02:16:41,120
who ignore them completely.
Wow, that's a serious critique.

2027
02:16:43,600 --> 02:16:49,440
And I I don't disagree, no.
And I don't disagree.

2028
02:16:49,440 --> 02:16:56,000
Even today, however, line upon
line, precept upon precept.

2029
02:16:56,480 --> 02:16:58,520
Right.
There's no other way around it,

2030
02:16:59,200 --> 02:17:09,559
and I maybe I am callous.
I don't believe the majority of

2031
02:17:09,559 --> 02:17:14,160
people on earth ever will be to
the point where they're

2032
02:17:14,160 --> 02:17:17,080
hungering and thirsting after
righteousness and knowledge.

2033
02:17:18,160 --> 02:17:24,240
Well, and and do you think that
that I can't help but, but think

2034
02:17:24,240 --> 02:17:31,680
that that that wasn't maybe both
Brigham and Hugh Nibley's point

2035
02:17:31,680 --> 02:17:35,320
here, right, is that you're
hungering after the wrong

2036
02:17:35,320 --> 02:17:37,360
things.
Did for sure.

2037
02:17:37,760 --> 02:17:41,680
Right.
And for sure, and especially

2038
02:17:41,680 --> 02:17:47,600
like that first slide we had,
you get a sense that Brigham is

2039
02:17:47,639 --> 02:17:50,719
almost pleading with the Saints
of his time.

2040
02:17:50,719 --> 02:17:54,400
Raise your eyes a little higher,
right, Reach a little farther

2041
02:17:54,840 --> 02:17:58,639
right.
There are certain times where if

2042
02:17:58,639 --> 02:18:01,440
I'm reading in the Journal of
Discourses, especially the early

2043
02:18:01,440 --> 02:18:05,840
ones, you get a sense almost
from time to time that Brigham's

2044
02:18:05,840 --> 02:18:08,240
like, OK, yeah, let's, let's get
our needs met.

2045
02:18:08,280 --> 02:18:10,719
But we got bigger things we got
to do, right?

2046
02:18:10,719 --> 02:18:14,240
Let's, let's get the crops in.
Let's get a civilization's kick

2047
02:18:14,240 --> 02:18:16,920
started here.
But we're on to bigger things,

2048
02:18:16,920 --> 02:18:17,440
right?
Well.

2049
02:18:17,920 --> 02:18:20,200
You see that with Joseph.
You see that with Joseph, too.

2050
02:18:20,480 --> 02:18:24,280
Yep, he he starts talking about
the arts, about the theater,

2051
02:18:24,280 --> 02:18:28,480
about the about the operas.
Right there, there is this idea

2052
02:18:28,480 --> 02:18:33,120
of, of the Latter Day Saints
being a more well-rounded, dare

2053
02:18:33,120 --> 02:18:37,920
I say, cultured people and, and
Briga.

2054
02:18:37,920 --> 02:18:40,240
That's what Brigham's looking
at, right?

2055
02:18:40,240 --> 02:18:42,240
I think that's what Joseph had
in mind.

2056
02:18:43,280 --> 02:18:46,320
And I think we do have to
recapture a certain part of that

2057
02:18:46,320 --> 02:18:48,040
spirit.
I agree.

2058
02:18:48,959 --> 02:18:53,920
I agree.
Our second essay, Chapter 7

2059
02:18:53,920 --> 02:18:55,920
Treasures in the Heavens from
volume 1.

2060
02:18:59,879 --> 02:19:05,240
I hear he he draws extensively
from apocryphal

2061
02:19:05,240 --> 02:19:09,040
pseudoepigraphical extra
canonical texts to teach us a

2062
02:19:09,040 --> 02:19:11,840
little bit about what treasures
in the heavens mean.

2063
02:19:15,160 --> 02:19:19,440
To make the treasure test a fair
1-2 treasures are placed before

2064
02:19:19,440 --> 02:19:22,719
us on equal footing.
The doctrine of the two ways,

2065
02:19:23,320 --> 02:19:26,959
the two nature is being mingled
in exactly equal portions in

2066
02:19:26,959 --> 02:19:31,120
every human being, to neutralize
what otherwise would be the

2067
02:19:31,120 --> 02:19:34,320
overpowering appeal of the
heavenly treasure.

2068
02:19:35,160 --> 02:19:39,120
The memory of its former glories
has been erased from the mind of

2069
02:19:39,120 --> 02:19:44,120
man, which is thus in a state of
equilibrium, enjoying by the

2070
02:19:44,120 --> 02:19:49,000
ancient law of liberty complete
freedom to choose whatever it

2071
02:19:49,000 --> 02:19:52,080
will.
In this state, whatever choice

2072
02:19:52,080 --> 02:19:56,160
is made represents the true
heart and mind of the one who

2073
02:19:56,160 --> 02:19:58,880
makes it.
Plan of salvation.

2074
02:19:58,880 --> 02:20:02,440
But couched in different terms,
helping us to understand more

2075
02:20:02,440 --> 02:20:04,880
clearly the choice that lies
before us.

2076
02:20:05,840 --> 02:20:07,880
And what, what and what you
can't see here.

2077
02:20:07,880 --> 02:20:10,720
Every time you see quotation
marks, he's quoting from an

2078
02:20:10,720 --> 02:20:15,680
ancient text which the wording
is just different enough from

2079
02:20:16,120 --> 02:20:20,800
our what we colloquially refer
to in the plan of salvation that

2080
02:20:20,800 --> 02:20:23,440
it makes us consider it in a
slightly different light.

2081
02:20:23,840 --> 02:20:25,480
It's one thing I love about
these ancient texts.

2082
02:20:25,600 --> 02:20:28,240
OK, so.
This is fascinating.

2083
02:20:28,520 --> 02:20:32,880
OK, so where he has in
quotations there, the ancient

2084
02:20:32,880 --> 02:20:36,040
law of liberty, he's quoting
from an ancient text.

2085
02:20:36,240 --> 02:20:37,560
Yeah.
So I don't have.

2086
02:20:37,560 --> 02:20:39,720
Time and space.
I don't have time and space on

2087
02:20:39,720 --> 02:20:41,920
the slides to show you where
that's coming from.

2088
02:20:42,320 --> 02:20:46,640
That is, yeah.
But my point is, the ancient

2089
02:20:46,640 --> 02:20:51,000
text is referring to something
ancient to them.

2090
02:20:52,760 --> 02:20:57,320
Well, which we refer to as
agency, right, the ancient law

2091
02:20:57,520 --> 02:21:01,840
of liberty.
It's just it it, it kind of

2092
02:21:02,520 --> 02:21:05,720
stretches the mind to think
about it going back that far.

2093
02:21:06,720 --> 02:21:11,360
Yeah, you just wait.
OK, The next one.

2094
02:21:11,840 --> 02:21:16,240
As teacher and administrator of
the ordinances, the priest holds

2095
02:21:16,240 --> 02:21:21,360
the key to the spiritual
treasure house, in which, quote,

2096
02:21:21,720 --> 02:21:25,240
the merit accruing from
ceremonial worship is

2097
02:21:25,240 --> 02:21:28,520
accumulated.
These ordinances, imported

2098
02:21:28,520 --> 02:21:34,800
directly from that treasury of
light to which they alone offer

2099
02:21:34,800 --> 02:21:39,280
the means of return, are types
of what is done above.

2100
02:21:40,200 --> 02:21:44,960
Through them, quote, souls are
led to the treasury of Light.

2101
02:21:45,920 --> 02:21:51,080
Between US and the great King of
the Treasury of Light are many

2102
02:21:51,080 --> 02:21:57,080
steps and veils UN quote, and it
is only by quote giving the

2103
02:21:57,080 --> 02:22:02,040
proper replies to the guardians,
UN quote, that one is able to

2104
02:22:02,040 --> 02:22:05,200
approach and finally enter the
Treasury of Light.

2105
02:22:06,200 --> 02:22:10,680
The ordinances are most secret.
They are usually called

2106
02:22:10,720 --> 02:22:15,120
mysteries, and it is through
their scrupulous observance that

2107
02:22:15,120 --> 02:22:19,240
every man quote puts his own
treasure in order.

2108
02:22:19,960 --> 02:22:24,640
Wow.
So I'm going to be gentle here.

2109
02:22:24,960 --> 02:22:30,680
I'm going to be careful, but
there are so many points in that

2110
02:22:30,680 --> 02:22:33,600
last statement, so many things
that are said.

2111
02:22:34,320 --> 02:22:38,320
They're eerily similar to some
of the opening remarks right

2112
02:22:38,320 --> 02:22:40,320
before an endowment session
begins.

2113
02:22:41,520 --> 02:22:43,880
Oh, yeah?
Well, you quote Brigham when he

2114
02:22:43,880 --> 02:22:46,520
says that, right?
Yeah.

2115
02:22:47,640 --> 02:22:51,680
Sure.
And where did Brigham Young get

2116
02:22:51,680 --> 02:22:53,800
that he didn't have these
ancient documents?

2117
02:22:53,960 --> 02:22:55,520
No, he got it from.
Joseph Smith.

2118
02:22:55,520 --> 02:22:57,640
Oh, my God.
Yeah.

2119
02:22:57,640 --> 02:23:00,440
Where did Joseph Smith get that
he didn't have these ancient

2120
02:23:00,440 --> 02:23:03,120
documents?
Can we've been over this?

2121
02:23:03,120 --> 02:23:04,680
He got it from the collective
conscience.

2122
02:23:07,400 --> 02:23:09,960
What?
What strikes me that verbiage

2123
02:23:09,960 --> 02:23:13,520
that they use is identical.
Yep, the verbiage has been

2124
02:23:13,520 --> 02:23:15,600
translated from Coptic into
English.

2125
02:23:15,920 --> 02:23:20,600
Yep, the specificity of
Revelation continues to astonish

2126
02:23:20,600 --> 02:23:27,360
me.
Right next quote.

2127
02:23:28,160 --> 02:23:33,960
This preoccupation with locusts
replace A assumes a plurality of

2128
02:23:33,960 --> 02:23:39,120
worlds, and indeed, in our
treasure texts we often find

2129
02:23:39,120 --> 02:23:42,560
worlds, earths, and cosmoses in
the plural.

2130
02:23:43,640 --> 02:23:48,320
It is only the fallen angels, in
fact, led by the blind Samael

2131
02:23:48,560 --> 02:23:53,160
Satan, who insist, quote, we are
alone and there is none beside

2132
02:23:53,160 --> 02:23:54,080
us.
UN quote.

2133
02:23:54,920 --> 02:23:58,160
To the Sons of Light, on the
other hand, there is opened up

2134
02:23:58,160 --> 02:24:02,640
the grandiose vision of the
world's, united in the common

2135
02:24:02,640 --> 02:24:06,520
knowledge of Him who made them,
exchanging joyful and

2136
02:24:06,520 --> 02:24:10,960
affectionate messages as they
quote, keep faith with one

2137
02:24:10,960 --> 02:24:14,160
another.
UN quote in the common plan and

2138
02:24:14,160 --> 02:24:18,920
quote, talk to each other and
establish concord, each

2139
02:24:18,920 --> 02:24:22,840
contributing something of its
own uncommon UN quote to the

2140
02:24:22,840 --> 02:24:26,280
common interest.
The members of the vast complex

2141
02:24:26,280 --> 02:24:30,320
are kept in perfect accord by
the sustaining Word of God,

2142
02:24:30,800 --> 02:24:35,240
which reaches all alike, since
it possesses quote, through the

2143
02:24:35,240 --> 02:24:40,360
power of the treasure, UN quote,
the capacity for travelling for

2144
02:24:40,360 --> 02:24:45,160
unlimited, unlimited distances
with inexpressible speed.

2145
02:24:46,040 --> 02:24:52,680
This word is also the Sun, who,
quote, has betaken himself to

2146
02:24:52,680 --> 02:24:57,120
the numberless hidden worlds
which have come to know him, UN

2147
02:24:57,120 --> 02:24:59,960
quote.
The messages may also be borne

2148
02:24:59,960 --> 02:25:05,240
by special messengers and
inspectors, angels with special

2149
02:25:05,240 --> 02:25:09,240
assignments and marvelous powers
of getting around, who

2150
02:25:09,240 --> 02:25:13,080
constantly go forth on their
missions and return with their

2151
02:25:13,080 --> 02:25:16,800
reports.
Wow, holy cow.

2152
02:25:19,200 --> 02:25:23,840
In my book you'll you'll find
the discussion of this mode of

2153
02:25:23,840 --> 02:25:28,560
transportation under light
pillar of etcetera, etcetera.

2154
02:25:29,200 --> 02:25:32,520
It's quite lengthy and I've
quoted it here to you before

2155
02:25:32,520 --> 02:25:36,000
where the Dead Sea Scrolls talks
about the Grand Central Station.

2156
02:25:36,440 --> 02:25:38,000
Right.
Yep, of these messengers.

2157
02:25:38,040 --> 02:25:39,720
And it is.
Yep.

2158
02:25:40,280 --> 02:25:45,120
It far surpasses any science
fiction you could ever you know,

2159
02:25:45,160 --> 02:25:48,040
forget Stargate, right?
This stuff, this stuff's

2160
02:25:48,040 --> 02:25:53,280
amazing.
Again, from treasures in the

2161
02:25:53,280 --> 02:25:57,880
heavens.
We on earth are not aware of all

2162
02:25:58,120 --> 02:26:01,720
this because we comprehend only
what we are like.

2163
02:26:03,160 --> 02:26:07,040
Not only is God rendered
invisible by the impenetrable

2164
02:26:07,040 --> 02:26:10,760
veil of life that surrounds him,
but He has purposely, quote,

2165
02:26:11,120 --> 02:26:15,560
placed veils between the world's
UN quote, that all treasures may

2166
02:26:15,560 --> 02:26:19,280
be hid from those who do not
seek them in the proper way.

2167
02:26:19,880 --> 02:26:22,720
Why do we need veils and guards
between the world's and the

2168
02:26:22,720 --> 02:26:27,080
kingdoms?
To protect the uninitiated from

2169
02:26:27,080 --> 02:26:29,760
the glory so they don't
themselves accidentally.

2170
02:26:35,600 --> 02:26:39,000
On the other side of the veil of
the temple lay the secrets of

2171
02:26:39,000 --> 02:26:44,640
Heaven, the celestial spaces
that know no balance and all

2172
02:26:44,640 --> 02:26:48,120
that they contain.
The wheel on the veil

2173
02:26:48,320 --> 02:26:53,440
quarantines this polluted world
mercifully from the rest.

2174
02:26:54,840 --> 02:26:56,040
Stick that in your pipe and
smoke.

2175
02:26:57,320 --> 02:27:01,480
Beyond the veil are the heavens,
and that goes for other worlds

2176
02:27:01,480 --> 02:27:06,880
as well as this one, for each is
shut off by its veil, for they

2177
02:27:06,880 --> 02:27:10,080
are eons and veils and
firmaments.

2178
02:27:10,680 --> 02:27:14,520
Quote, He made a veil for their
worlds, surrounding them like a

2179
02:27:14,520 --> 02:27:18,440
wall, UN quote.
Behind the ultimate veil sits

2180
02:27:18,440 --> 02:27:23,200
Yehu, quote, the Father of the
Treasury of Light, UN quote, who

2181
02:27:23,200 --> 02:27:26,240
is separated from all others by
the veil.

2182
02:27:26,360 --> 02:27:30,720
I'm not even going to try and
pronounce kata pitsmata, a veil.

2183
02:27:31,600 --> 02:27:36,920
A veil being that being that
which separates that which is

2184
02:27:36,920 --> 02:27:41,520
above from that which is below.
When a cycle has been completed

2185
02:27:42,040 --> 02:27:44,800
in the existence of all things,
Joseph Smith would have called

2186
02:27:44,800 --> 02:27:46,720
that an eternity.
Yep.

2187
02:27:47,920 --> 02:27:52,560
The great Sabbath and the God
looks Sabbath, the good looks

2188
02:27:52,560 --> 02:27:55,760
out from behind the veil, and
all that has gone before is

2189
02:27:55,760 --> 02:27:58,160
dissolved and passes into
oblivion.

2190
02:27:58,440 --> 02:28:02,240
Only the qualified can pass by
one of these veils.

2191
02:28:02,240 --> 02:28:07,080
Of course, when Pistus Sophia
Hooray presumed to look behind

2192
02:28:07,080 --> 02:28:09,480
the veil before she was ready,
she promptly fell from her

2193
02:28:09,480 --> 02:28:12,920
former glory.
Only Jesus has passed through

2194
02:28:12,920 --> 02:28:15,840
all the veils at all the degrees
of glory and authority.

2195
02:28:16,440 --> 02:28:19,840
As one grows in faith, more and
more is revealed, until finally

2196
02:28:19,840 --> 02:28:23,640
the watchers move the veils
aside and you enter into the

2197
02:28:23,640 --> 02:28:28,040
presence of the Father, who
gives you His name and His seal.

2198
02:28:28,280 --> 02:28:34,040
Wow.
Now some shorter ones from the

2199
02:28:34,040 --> 02:28:37,200
treasures in the heavens.
With a new creation, things

2200
02:28:37,200 --> 02:28:40,960
become visible on a new level.
This is consistent with the

2201
02:28:40,960 --> 02:28:45,960
doctrine that one sees or
comprehends only what 1 is like.

2202
02:28:47,720 --> 02:28:50,760
Wow.
Which is why the terrestrial

2203
02:28:50,760 --> 02:28:54,280
cannot even comprehend the
celestial is beyond their

2204
02:28:54,280 --> 02:28:59,920
understanding and intelligence.
In reclaiming its treasure, the

2205
02:28:59,920 --> 02:29:05,080
Spirit becomes what it was
before removing its garment.

2206
02:29:09,680 --> 02:29:13,360
The dwellers upon earth can
understand only what is upon the

2207
02:29:13,360 --> 02:29:16,360
earth, and the same applies to
other worlds.

2208
02:29:16,880 --> 02:29:21,600
Beings comprehend only what they
are like, so that the Lord must

2209
02:29:21,600 --> 02:29:24,800
take the form of those to whom
He appears.

2210
02:29:27,840 --> 02:29:29,480
That's epistle Sophia talks
about.

2211
02:29:29,480 --> 02:29:32,480
He could turn his glory up and
down relative to the specific

2212
02:29:32,480 --> 02:29:34,320
needs.
If he appeared in his full

2213
02:29:34,320 --> 02:29:36,280
glory, He'd toast us all.
Right.

2214
02:29:36,960 --> 02:29:40,440
I like this one.
God isolates hostile worlds from

2215
02:29:40,440 --> 02:29:43,280
each other, lest they unite
against Him.

2216
02:29:46,800 --> 02:29:49,200
There's some deep stuff.
Holy cow all.

2217
02:29:50,120 --> 02:29:51,640
Right.
Are you ready for the big

2218
02:29:51,640 --> 02:29:53,200
finish?
I am.

2219
02:29:53,960 --> 02:29:56,160
Unrolling the scrolls, some
forgotten witnesses.

2220
02:29:56,920 --> 02:30:04,040
OK.
From volume 1, one of the very

2221
02:30:04,040 --> 02:30:07,760
recently discovered documents
says God, the Father of all our

2222
02:30:07,760 --> 02:30:11,880
eternal bodies, brings about the
resurrection of the flesh

2223
02:30:12,360 --> 02:30:17,000
through members of the Godhead.
Do not be afraid of the world of

2224
02:30:17,760 --> 02:30:20,800
the.
Oh, OK, so I forgot to say where

2225
02:30:20,800 --> 02:30:22,720
the quotes were.
He's quoting a document.

2226
02:30:23,520 --> 02:30:25,200
I mean, we're like, yeah, that's
LDS doctrine.

2227
02:30:25,200 --> 02:30:26,800
No, this is from an ancient
document.

2228
02:30:27,440 --> 02:30:30,320
One of the very recently
discovered documents says quote,

2229
02:30:30,960 --> 02:30:35,440
God, the Father of all our
eternal bodies, brings about the

2230
02:30:35,440 --> 02:30:38,320
resurrection of the flesh
through members of the Godhead.

2231
02:30:38,920 --> 02:30:42,640
Do not be afraid of the world of
the physics or the physical

2232
02:30:42,640 --> 02:30:47,400
world.
The Living Spirit clothes itself

2233
02:30:47,720 --> 02:30:51,800
with the body of elements
through which it is enabled to

2234
02:30:51,800 --> 02:31:00,320
carry out its works.
In the world's The Piss of

2235
02:31:00,320 --> 02:31:02,960
Sophia, a very important early
work, says Quote.

2236
02:31:03,560 --> 02:31:07,320
There is a place afforded for
everything, a topos.

2237
02:31:08,080 --> 02:31:11,160
Some Coptics use the Greek words
every once in a while because

2238
02:31:11,160 --> 02:31:14,480
they don't have any that express
exactly the idea of topos.

2239
02:31:14,920 --> 02:31:21,000
A topos is a place for a certain
thing to be performed, he

2240
02:31:21,000 --> 02:31:23,560
explains more.
There is a numbering of souls

2241
02:31:24,440 --> 02:31:28,720
for each world, and a
dispensation is not completed

2242
02:31:28,720 --> 02:31:31,280
until that number has been
fulfilled.

2243
02:31:32,560 --> 02:31:36,560
Every soul stays in its
appointed topos until it has

2244
02:31:36,560 --> 02:31:40,800
fulfilled the mission and task
appointed for it in that place.

2245
02:31:43,320 --> 02:31:48,600
Mine house is a House of order,
he says he goes.

2246
02:31:48,640 --> 02:31:52,160
Time and matter and space are
all organized.

2247
02:31:52,480 --> 02:31:56,360
It's well understood that all
this setting of times is for our

2248
02:31:56,360 --> 02:32:00,680
nature and for the purpose of
our testing in this world,

2249
02:32:00,680 --> 02:32:02,840
otherwise known as a temporal
existence.

2250
02:32:05,920 --> 02:32:08,000
And he says it's only a
temporary arrangement.

2251
02:32:09,320 --> 02:32:12,120
It is a characteristic of this
particular world.

2252
02:32:12,840 --> 02:32:17,160
For God there is no time.
At least he doesn't use our time

2253
02:32:17,160 --> 02:32:19,680
at all.
The documents make this very,

2254
02:32:19,680 --> 02:32:24,600
very clear.
They now admit that matter is

2255
02:32:24,600 --> 02:32:28,640
there and that it's organized,
but it's not enough to arrange

2256
02:32:28,640 --> 02:32:33,720
matter with order and system.
Such matter remains, for all its

2257
02:32:33,720 --> 02:32:37,240
pretty patterns, inert
background stuff.

2258
02:32:37,800 --> 02:32:40,680
Without life, matter is inert
and helpless.

2259
02:32:40,720 --> 02:32:45,160
Those early writers say it must
be improved by the action of

2260
02:32:45,160 --> 02:32:48,320
light.
The creators have a special

2261
02:32:48,320 --> 02:32:53,080
force, which the early writers
call light, not light exactly as

2262
02:32:53,080 --> 02:32:55,200
we understand it.
Structure is not enough.

2263
02:32:55,920 --> 02:33:00,080
Whenever the active principle is
withdrawn, matter at once falls

2264
02:33:00,080 --> 02:33:02,880
back into its original,
lifeless, inert condition.

2265
02:33:04,680 --> 02:33:08,840
It is the same with all matter.
It must be touched by some

2266
02:33:08,840 --> 02:33:11,360
activating force, according to
the ancients.

2267
02:33:12,360 --> 02:33:13,800
And he starts to put this
together.

2268
02:33:16,960 --> 02:33:19,960
He doesn't say it here, but it's
the difference between what it's

2269
02:33:19,960 --> 02:33:23,960
the definition of what is
organized matter versus matter

2270
02:33:24,040 --> 02:33:25,560
unorganized.
Right.

2271
02:33:26,680 --> 02:33:30,960
The records call it the spark,
the spinter, a word that occurs

2272
02:33:30,960 --> 02:33:33,720
numerous times.
The spark is mentioned

2273
02:33:33,720 --> 02:33:36,920
throughout and it is what makes
the difference.

2274
02:33:37,200 --> 02:33:40,880
The spark is that which comes
from one world to another.

2275
02:33:41,320 --> 02:33:44,640
The spark is also that which
animates at a distance.

2276
02:33:45,280 --> 02:33:48,760
This vitalizing principle is
everywhere referred to as the

2277
02:33:48,760 --> 02:33:53,160
spark, without which says the
so-called second Coptic work.

2278
02:33:53,600 --> 02:33:56,800
There is no awareness.
We would say intelligence.

2279
02:33:57,760 --> 02:34:06,120
OK, so real quick, in the last
three sections, we just read and

2280
02:34:06,120 --> 02:34:11,080
and I point this out to show
what Nibley is on to here and

2281
02:34:11,080 --> 02:34:18,640
what he's thinking.
He talks about matter, right?

2282
02:34:18,960 --> 02:34:23,320
And that matter nothing more
than structure, until there's

2283
02:34:23,320 --> 02:34:27,280
that spark, that life.
Yep, it's inert without the

2284
02:34:27,280 --> 02:34:29,360
spark.
Yes, it's inert.

2285
02:34:29,440 --> 02:34:32,600
It doesn't matter.
And he talks about that light

2286
02:34:32,600 --> 02:34:36,640
not as you know and he says not
as we understand it, but that is

2287
02:34:36,640 --> 02:34:39,280
it's or the organizing principle
of it, right?

2288
02:34:39,280 --> 02:34:43,520
It's not nothing structure, but
that light has to be the the

2289
02:34:43,520 --> 02:34:48,160
organizing factor of it.
And then he seems to almost go

2290
02:34:48,160 --> 02:34:52,000
into what we would term human
consciousness.

2291
02:34:52,000 --> 02:34:54,440
There is no awareness, right?
Yes.

2292
02:34:54,640 --> 02:34:56,120
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's all these

2293
02:34:56,120 --> 02:35:01,160
metaphysical ideas placed within
the material that excellent.

2294
02:35:01,440 --> 02:35:05,040
That connects right back to what
I was saying before with Joseph

2295
02:35:05,040 --> 02:35:09,280
Smith's mission.
The corporeal or the temporal is

2296
02:35:09,280 --> 02:35:12,440
not in and of itself unholy by
nature.

2297
02:35:13,200 --> 02:35:16,400
Very good, very good, which is
in contrast to what the Greeks

2298
02:35:16,400 --> 02:35:19,920
believe that that that the
physical was inherently evil and

2299
02:35:19,920 --> 02:35:26,720
we were trying to rid ourselves
of the physical, which is, not

2300
02:35:26,720 --> 02:35:31,080
surprisingly, a perversion of
the true gospel, or as Eric

2301
02:35:31,080 --> 02:35:33,760
Skousen put it in his book,
Earth.

2302
02:35:33,760 --> 02:35:37,880
In the Beginning, what the gods
are doing, they're taking

2303
02:35:37,880 --> 02:35:42,640
unorganized matter and fusing it
with unorganized intelligence.

2304
02:35:43,640 --> 02:35:46,320
They're bribing to pass the plan
of salvation.

2305
02:35:49,280 --> 02:35:51,640
He goes on.
When this vitalizing principle

2306
02:35:51,640 --> 02:35:55,680
touches matter, according to the
Psalm of Thomas, one of the new

2307
02:35:55,680 --> 02:35:59,120
Syriac manuscripts,
consciousness is expanded.

2308
02:35:59,800 --> 02:36:03,000
The world's of darkness gathered
and beheld his brightness.

2309
02:36:03,800 --> 02:36:06,720
Quote, the worlds of darkness
gathered and beheld his

2310
02:36:06,720 --> 02:36:09,240
brightness.
They breathed his fragrance.

2311
02:36:09,560 --> 02:36:14,640
They orbited about him and bowed
and knew him and worshipped him.

2312
02:36:14,680 --> 02:36:18,280
UN quote.
The matter itself is just part

2313
02:36:18,280 --> 02:36:21,040
of the story.
It can be imbued with the

2314
02:36:21,040 --> 02:36:23,880
spirit, but it will always
change.

2315
02:36:24,360 --> 02:36:26,920
It is always undergoing,
processing and changing.

2316
02:36:27,480 --> 02:36:33,760
Only progeny is eternal, only
sons go on forever, says the

2317
02:36:33,760 --> 02:36:36,800
Gospel of Philip.
That was the plan of heaven.

2318
02:36:37,240 --> 02:36:42,120
Part of Satan's plan was to have
a static world that would not

2319
02:36:42,120 --> 02:36:45,240
change.
It would not only be perfect, it

2320
02:36:45,240 --> 02:36:48,040
would be static in its physical
structure as well.

2321
02:36:48,560 --> 02:36:52,920
But the plan agreed.
But the plan agreed on was that

2322
02:36:52,920 --> 02:36:56,200
worlds would constantly come
into existence and pass away,

2323
02:36:56,760 --> 02:36:58,840
and that the process would never
cease.

2324
02:36:59,320 --> 02:37:03,480
Matter would always be processed
again and again, and this would

2325
02:37:03,480 --> 02:37:06,520
go on.
Whereas this same writing says

2326
02:37:06,520 --> 02:37:11,720
that only sons are eternal
sonship, progeny goes on

2327
02:37:11,720 --> 02:37:15,840
forever, so that while the other
elements become serviceable to

2328
02:37:15,840 --> 02:37:20,200
the needs of the Spirit, as the
Gospel of Philip puts it, there

2329
02:37:20,200 --> 02:37:24,640
is no permanence in matter.
It always undergoes change as

2330
02:37:24,640 --> 02:37:27,280
worlds come into existence and
pass away.

2331
02:37:27,760 --> 02:37:31,520
Only progeny is eternal.
Holy cow.

2332
02:37:34,760 --> 02:37:36,800
Here's what the piss of Sophia
says about it.

2333
02:37:37,200 --> 02:37:41,200
It has to be matter
decontaminated, melted down,

2334
02:37:41,520 --> 02:37:44,680
then purified.
Where have we heard that before?

2335
02:37:45,680 --> 02:37:47,640
There's a lot about
decontamination.

2336
02:37:48,080 --> 02:37:51,400
The action of the light on
matter always has a purifying

2337
02:37:51,400 --> 02:37:54,480
effect, whether for the first
time or whether it's being

2338
02:37:54,480 --> 02:37:57,520
reused.
Indeed, there's no such thing as

2339
02:37:57,520 --> 02:38:02,160
used or old matter, since by the
action of the spark or of the

2340
02:38:02,160 --> 02:38:05,560
light upon it, the matter always
becomes renewed.

2341
02:38:06,000 --> 02:38:09,640
Let matter rejoice in the light,
for the light will leave no

2342
02:38:09,640 --> 02:38:19,680
matter unpurified or what
Section 130 calls Urim and

2343
02:38:19,680 --> 02:38:25,560
Thummim purified matter, globe
of a sea of glass and fire.

2344
02:38:25,920 --> 02:38:26,680
You know.
After the.

2345
02:38:27,440 --> 02:38:28,120
Uh huh.
Sorry.

2346
02:38:28,240 --> 02:38:30,800
There, there's, there's
something else there too that

2347
02:38:31,120 --> 02:38:34,760
that I think can be very, very
applicable to our quest for

2348
02:38:34,760 --> 02:38:38,960
sanctification, right?
Letting the light touch us, so

2349
02:38:38,960 --> 02:38:43,320
to speak, here in this world, to
become sanctified.

2350
02:38:44,280 --> 02:38:47,560
Excellent.
After the plan of creation was

2351
02:38:47,560 --> 02:38:51,680
accepted, it was communicated to
all the other worlds.

2352
02:38:52,440 --> 02:38:57,240
All the other worlds contributed
something to the making of this

2353
02:38:57,240 --> 02:39:00,840
one, because they rejoiced in
such a project.

2354
02:39:01,560 --> 02:39:05,200
For the world's exist, we are
told in the Askew Manuscript,

2355
02:39:06,000 --> 02:39:10,680
which is another title for the
Pista Sophia, so that

2356
02:39:10,840 --> 02:39:14,160
intelligent spirits might come
and inhabit them.

2357
02:39:15,080 --> 02:39:18,080
Not only are the world's
countless, according to Philip,

2358
02:39:18,600 --> 02:39:20,440
but they have been going on
forever.

2359
02:39:21,080 --> 02:39:25,000
Adam's holy angels inhabit many
worlds.

2360
02:39:25,920 --> 02:39:35,200
Oh, OK.
I'm, I'm, I'm.

2361
02:39:35,680 --> 02:39:39,880
I'm not going to point this out,
although I really want to.

2362
02:39:40,160 --> 02:39:43,240
Adam's holy angels inhabit many
worlds.

2363
02:39:43,560 --> 02:39:46,840
That's a loaded term, Ken.
It sure is.

2364
02:39:47,360 --> 02:39:50,760
That's a loaded term.
I'm just saying it's worth the.

2365
02:39:51,040 --> 02:39:54,920
It's worth pointing out there
that the there there could be a

2366
02:39:54,920 --> 02:39:58,840
certain doctrine or theory.
Depending on what it could, it

2367
02:39:58,840 --> 02:40:02,400
could be interpreted that way.
It could, I'm just saying it's

2368
02:40:02,800 --> 02:40:05,280
possible.
I'm not saying you do, saying I

2369
02:40:05,280 --> 02:40:08,280
do, but not.
No, I mean to be honest, there

2370
02:40:08,280 --> 02:40:10,720
are there's more than one
interpretation that right?

2371
02:40:11,200 --> 02:40:15,320
Yep, someday you and I, someday
you and I, will go down that

2372
02:40:15,320 --> 02:40:18,000
merry path together.
We will, we will.

2373
02:40:19,200 --> 02:40:22,880
It will be a good time.
It will be a good time.

2374
02:40:22,880 --> 02:40:24,880
One of us will say to the other,
I owe you lunch.

2375
02:40:28,120 --> 02:40:32,080
Our older Christian sources also
remind us that in the great

2376
02:40:32,080 --> 02:40:34,880
scheme of things, everything is
in the plural.

2377
02:40:35,200 --> 02:40:41,880
Worlds, universes, plans, gods,
spaces, saviors, and so forth.

2378
02:40:42,600 --> 02:40:49,320
Mind you, this is published way
before Hubble Deep Field, right?

2379
02:40:50,760 --> 02:40:53,800
That's why I think it was in
1994 when the Hubble Deep Field

2380
02:40:53,800 --> 02:40:56,720
here showed us how many
universes possibly there really

2381
02:40:56,720 --> 02:40:59,560
were.
I I teared up because I believe

2382
02:40:59,600 --> 02:41:01,320
all along, and now you can see
it.

2383
02:41:02,600 --> 02:41:06,800
A multiplicity of worlds are
organized on a common pattern.

2384
02:41:08,400 --> 02:41:12,760
For example, a newly found
Apocryphon of James, also the

2385
02:41:12,760 --> 02:41:16,440
ASCII manuscript, Chris Sophia
and the second Coptic work, and

2386
02:41:16,440 --> 02:41:19,680
the Apocryphon of John among
others, notes that in all the

2387
02:41:19,680 --> 02:41:23,720
world's there is a common
pattern and its base is a monad

2388
02:41:23,800 --> 02:41:26,600
rule.
There is one rule everywhere,

2389
02:41:27,520 --> 02:41:31,840
but God always rules through a
presidency of three and through

2390
02:41:31,840 --> 02:41:36,120
a council of 12, no matter what
the world is.

2391
02:41:36,960 --> 02:41:40,840
This is a law that exists
throughout all the world's.

2392
02:41:41,720 --> 02:41:43,440
Mine house is the House of
orders.

2393
02:41:44,400 --> 02:41:46,680
A number of these sources talk
about that.

2394
02:41:47,120 --> 02:41:50,440
These repetitions are infinite
in number and scope.

2395
02:41:51,480 --> 02:41:56,240
Carl Schmidt, a great
theologian, non LDS believed

2396
02:41:56,240 --> 02:41:57,440
that.
Second you.

2397
02:41:57,440 --> 02:42:03,040
What do we talk about there?
There are two texts called 1st

2398
02:42:03,040 --> 02:42:07,160
and 2nd year, the books of you
that the Pista Sophia refers to

2399
02:42:07,160 --> 02:42:10,600
specifically.
Mrs. Sophia talks, you know,

2400
02:42:10,600 --> 02:42:13,880
gives the outline of these
ordinances and then says you

2401
02:42:13,880 --> 02:42:15,840
want to know about these.
If you want to know more about

2402
02:42:15,840 --> 02:42:19,720
these ordinances, refer to the
books of Yeau, and the books of

2403
02:42:19,720 --> 02:42:22,400
Yeau are basically the script
for the endowment.

2404
02:42:23,240 --> 02:42:25,760
Really.
Yeah, I remember when you get

2405
02:42:26,040 --> 02:42:29,600
we, we talked to this.
I think actually we're talking

2406
02:42:29,600 --> 02:42:32,440
about the pista, Sophia.
We've talked about a lot,

2407
02:42:32,440 --> 02:42:35,240
haven't we?
But there's there's more.

2408
02:42:35,560 --> 02:42:39,920
So Carl Schmidt believed that
the second Yayu was the most

2409
02:42:39,960 --> 02:42:42,800
important of all early Christian
writings.

2410
02:42:43,480 --> 02:42:46,360
Wow.
The books of Yayu, they read

2411
02:42:46,360 --> 02:42:48,240
like, and then they're kind of
repetitious.

2412
02:42:48,520 --> 02:42:54,240
When you get to this veil, make
this sign and say this word is

2413
02:42:54,240 --> 02:42:58,040
what it's saying.
Oh.

2414
02:42:58,520 --> 02:43:01,640
Uses the word cipher instead of
sign anyway.

2415
02:43:02,000 --> 02:43:04,240
Joseph Smith was a pretty good
guesser, wasn't he?

2416
02:43:05,200 --> 02:43:06,960
Wow, he.
He sure was.

2417
02:43:07,040 --> 02:43:10,440
Yeah, yeah.
Really tapped into that

2418
02:43:10,440 --> 02:43:12,400
collective consciousness, I'll
tell you what.

2419
02:43:13,720 --> 02:43:20,200
I I'm such an idiot.
My mind is just so slow here.

2420
02:43:20,200 --> 02:43:25,360
I've compiled this book of
thousands numbering in the

2421
02:43:25,360 --> 02:43:29,440
thousands of unmistakable
parallels with Restore Doctrine

2422
02:43:30,560 --> 02:43:34,760
and my my brain still, you know,
being in this world is slow to

2423
02:43:36,400 --> 02:43:39,160
recognize it's complete and
absolute truth.

2424
02:43:39,680 --> 02:43:42,280
Absolutely.
Or to be aware of it at least.

2425
02:43:42,280 --> 02:43:47,640
I mean, I understand it
intellectually, but to fully

2426
02:43:47,640 --> 02:43:50,640
accept it and to fully
experience it and then celebrate

2427
02:43:50,640 --> 02:43:54,880
it still stupid.
OK, let's go on.

2428
02:43:55,040 --> 02:43:56,040
Let's see.
And it goes on.

2429
02:43:58,080 --> 02:44:02,120
And this tells us that a person
who is sent to take charge of a

2430
02:44:02,120 --> 02:44:06,040
new world, as Adam was sent to
take charge of this world, is

2431
02:44:06,040 --> 02:44:09,640
called Yehu, a form of the word
Jehovah.

2432
02:44:10,160 --> 02:44:14,240
Then he says, quote, as Yehus
become fathers.

2433
02:44:14,680 --> 02:44:16,680
Once you have become
established, you become a

2434
02:44:16,680 --> 02:44:21,200
father, then you will appoint
Yehus for new worlds, who will

2435
02:44:21,200 --> 02:44:25,080
in time become fathers, and so
on ad infinitum.

2436
02:44:26,480 --> 02:44:29,680
UN quote.
So you have the Jehus promoted

2437
02:44:29,680 --> 02:44:34,800
to fathers, who then send out
other sons as Jehus, and so

2438
02:44:34,800 --> 02:44:38,560
forth.
Each eon and eon is like a a

2439
02:44:39,560 --> 02:44:46,320
Kingdom has created for its own
host 10,000 * 10,000.

2440
02:44:47,400 --> 02:44:48,360
Holy cow.
So.

2441
02:44:48,920 --> 02:44:55,280
So what Nibley brings forth here
is absolute proof of this idea

2442
02:44:55,280 --> 02:45:04,000
of eternal progression, taking
steps one at a time on up to the

2443
02:45:04,000 --> 02:45:07,320
ultimate promises of exaltation,
godhood.

2444
02:45:07,320 --> 02:45:10,240
Yes, yes.
And The thing is, it's not.

2445
02:45:10,360 --> 02:45:13,280
The funny thing is, it's not
nibbly saying it, it's nibbly

2446
02:45:13,800 --> 02:45:17,560
quoting 2000 year old documents
that are saying it.

2447
02:45:19,280 --> 02:45:28,400
Wow. 10,000 * 10,000 is billion.
Yeah.

2448
02:45:29,920 --> 02:45:34,120
Each eon has created for its own
host billions.

2449
02:45:35,280 --> 02:45:38,720
I think at the beginning of this
I need to tell everybody they

2450
02:45:38,720 --> 02:45:41,000
need to have duct tape handy
because you're going to have to

2451
02:45:41,000 --> 02:45:43,800
piece your head back together
floats.

2452
02:45:46,880 --> 02:45:49,040
Or wear a very tight hat.
Yes.

2453
02:45:52,360 --> 02:45:54,640
So there is only a coding nibble
again.

2454
02:45:54,960 --> 02:46:00,480
So there is only one God, only
one ruling mind, and only one

2455
02:46:00,480 --> 02:46:03,920
pattern.
After all, the oneness of God is

2456
02:46:03,920 --> 02:46:07,320
never jeopardized here.
The Askew manuscript.

2457
02:46:07,320 --> 02:46:08,640
I don't know why it just doesn't
call it this.

2458
02:46:08,640 --> 02:46:10,160
Sophia says.
Quote.

2459
02:46:10,800 --> 02:46:15,560
There are many mansions, many
degree, many regions, degrees,

2460
02:46:15,720 --> 02:46:21,600
worlds, spaces, and heavens that
all have but one law.

2461
02:46:22,360 --> 02:46:27,440
If you keep that law, you too
can become creators of worlds,

2462
02:46:28,280 --> 02:46:30,720
UN quote.
An astonishing statement.

2463
02:46:31,280 --> 02:46:36,320
And see in this one, he, he, he
tackles well, he doesn't tackle,

2464
02:46:36,320 --> 02:46:40,280
he brings forth these ancient
manuscripts or elaborates on

2465
02:46:40,280 --> 02:46:45,120
them, this idea of the oneness
of, of the gods, right?

2466
02:46:45,240 --> 02:46:47,480
What does that mean?
What does that?

2467
02:46:47,880 --> 02:46:54,480
And and the answer is here.
One Lord, one truth, 1 faith,

2468
02:46:54,520 --> 02:46:57,840
one baptism.
If you are not one, you are not

2469
02:46:57,840 --> 02:46:59,160
mine.
Right.

2470
02:46:59,800 --> 02:47:02,960
The holy priest adapted the
order of the Son of God.

2471
02:47:04,840 --> 02:47:07,480
Not there are other orders, but
if you want to be part of God's

2472
02:47:08,080 --> 02:47:13,560
Kingdom, yeah.
He goes on all the quote.

2473
02:47:14,080 --> 02:47:17,760
All the other worlds look to the
same God as to a common son.

2474
02:47:17,760 --> 02:47:20,680
UN quote.
The crucifixion is effective in

2475
02:47:20,680 --> 02:47:25,200
worlds other than this one.
Another says, quote, all the

2476
02:47:25,200 --> 02:47:29,280
cosmos's follow the pattern of a
single world, which is called

2477
02:47:29,280 --> 02:47:34,360
the type, the arch type.
Ever since the beginning, this

2478
02:47:34,360 --> 02:47:39,080
has been so keeping the entire
physics in a state in the state

2479
02:47:39,080 --> 02:47:42,720
of joy and rejoicing, UN quote,
he says.

2480
02:47:42,720 --> 02:47:46,720
Because it has been organized.
It's the same quote.

2481
02:47:47,480 --> 02:47:51,840
The world's exchange wisdom with
each other because they are

2482
02:47:51,840 --> 02:47:54,640
equally dependent on the Most
High UN quote.

2483
02:47:55,320 --> 02:47:58,520
They have the same common source
quote.

2484
02:47:58,840 --> 02:48:03,280
They are the heralds of his
thought UN quote, says the

2485
02:48:03,280 --> 02:48:06,040
famous 12th out of Solomon
quote.

2486
02:48:06,280 --> 02:48:09,440
By his word they communicate
with each other.

2487
02:48:10,120 --> 02:48:13,880
They know him who made them
because they are in concord.

2488
02:48:14,440 --> 02:48:18,320
They have a common ruler, a
common Lord, so they are in

2489
02:48:18,320 --> 02:48:21,960
concord with each other, and
they communicate with him and

2490
02:48:21,960 --> 02:48:26,080
through him with each other.
For the mouth of the Most High

2491
02:48:26,320 --> 02:48:28,440
has spoken to them.
UN quote.

2492
02:48:28,480 --> 02:48:31,760
Another ode quote.
The world's were made by His

2493
02:48:31,760 --> 02:48:34,160
word and by the thought of his
heart.

2494
02:48:34,520 --> 02:48:37,640
So they are all as one.
I love this part.

2495
02:48:37,920 --> 02:48:42,640
There is no rivalry or
competition among them, but they

2496
02:48:42,640 --> 02:48:46,800
are glorious in their firmaments
and agree among themselves.

2497
02:48:48,240 --> 02:48:52,080
It's supposed to say, fitting
together like the lashes of an

2498
02:48:52,080 --> 02:48:55,480
eye.
All rejoice in each other, each

2499
02:48:55,480 --> 02:48:58,520
being more glorious and bright
than the other.

2500
02:48:59,000 --> 02:49:00,360
UN quote.
Wow.

2501
02:49:01,480 --> 02:49:04,240
So you understand how all these
gazillions of worlds fit

2502
02:49:04,240 --> 02:49:06,800
together.
They're in.

2503
02:49:06,960 --> 02:49:09,720
They're in concord, and they
celebrate one another's

2504
02:49:09,720 --> 02:49:13,080
differences because they each
occupy a unique space in

2505
02:49:13,080 --> 02:49:15,240
eternity.
Like the lashes of an eye,

2506
02:49:17,480 --> 02:49:19,280
Nibbly comments.
There is a hierarchy of

2507
02:49:19,280 --> 02:49:24,480
brightness, the range going on
forever, each more glorious than

2508
02:49:24,480 --> 02:49:27,560
the next.
The Ginza says that when beings

2509
02:49:27,560 --> 02:49:31,760
from different worlds meet, they
exchange garments and treasures

2510
02:49:32,040 --> 02:49:35,800
as a sign of mutual esteem and
identification.

2511
02:49:37,760 --> 02:49:40,680
Talk about the expansiveness of
the plan of salvation.

2512
02:49:40,680 --> 02:49:44,360
We don't often get, you know,
we, we, we talk about celestial

2513
02:49:44,360 --> 02:49:47,760
glory, but we don't talk about
what it's like to intermingle

2514
02:49:47,760 --> 02:49:50,080
with other celestial worlds and
beings.

2515
02:49:50,680 --> 02:49:52,320
Can I just say something else
here?

2516
02:49:52,320 --> 02:49:56,800
I'm, I'm going to because I, I
am a coarse individual in my

2517
02:49:56,800 --> 02:49:59,480
thinking.
I'm always looking for how this

2518
02:49:59,480 --> 02:50:04,800
benefits us in the here and now.
And there is something that has

2519
02:50:04,800 --> 02:50:09,240
bugged me for a long time, Ken,
and that is this idea of

2520
02:50:09,240 --> 02:50:12,440
cultural appropriation, right?
No.

2521
02:50:12,520 --> 02:50:15,040
Yeah.
If we are seeking for unity,

2522
02:50:15,960 --> 02:50:18,440
well, it kind of tells us how
the world's do it, right?

2523
02:50:18,440 --> 02:50:22,480
They exchange garments and
treasures as signs of mutual

2524
02:50:22,480 --> 02:50:24,760
esteem and identification.
Yeah.

2525
02:50:25,760 --> 02:50:28,080
I think that debunks that
thought, right?

2526
02:50:28,160 --> 02:50:32,120
And, and being a simple guy who
looks for simple answers to

2527
02:50:32,120 --> 02:50:37,640
problems, I, I think again, and
I've said this a lot on this

2528
02:50:37,640 --> 02:50:40,960
podcast, and I really mean it by
nature.

2529
02:50:40,960 --> 02:50:44,000
I'm a guy who wants to look
forward for solutions and

2530
02:50:44,000 --> 02:50:47,080
answers.
But the truth is sometimes we

2531
02:50:47,080 --> 02:50:51,720
got to look back, right?
Well, yeah, a lot of these

2532
02:50:51,720 --> 02:50:57,600
problems that we face aren't new
to humanity, right?

2533
02:50:57,600 --> 02:51:01,000
But it's in the looking back
that we go, oh, I see where we

2534
02:51:01,000 --> 02:51:03,240
departed the, the, the, the
track.

2535
02:51:03,640 --> 02:51:08,920
This is where we left the plan.
And I I think this is another

2536
02:51:08,920 --> 02:51:14,840
example of that, Yeah.
Well, I mean civilization today

2537
02:51:16,160 --> 02:51:22,680
is built upon the achievements
of the past, and if we were

2538
02:51:22,680 --> 02:51:25,200
ignorant of that would be
reinventing the wheel every

2539
02:51:25,200 --> 02:51:27,040
generation.
Absolutely.

2540
02:51:30,200 --> 02:51:34,360
The Pistol Sophia quote.
Other worlds cannot possibly be

2541
02:51:34,360 --> 02:51:36,360
described in terms of this
world.

2542
02:51:36,880 --> 02:51:41,040
Not only is there less in common
between other worlds and this

2543
02:51:41,040 --> 02:51:45,920
world, they differ as widely
among themselves as any of them

2544
02:51:45,920 --> 02:51:51,880
does from us in the limited
confines of the flesh, The new

2545
02:51:51,880 --> 02:51:55,600
and the the new valuable writing
of James explains which

2546
02:51:55,600 --> 02:51:59,360
condition all our thinking.
We can't possibly grasp the

2547
02:51:59,360 --> 02:52:03,920
nature of other exists, other
existences, or even begin to

2548
02:52:03,920 --> 02:52:06,480
count the number of worlds.
Wow.

2549
02:52:07,400 --> 02:52:09,400
They different.
They differ more between

2550
02:52:09,400 --> 02:52:11,960
themselves than they do between
us and them.

2551
02:52:13,280 --> 02:52:15,960
See, for me, that's so exciting.
Right.

2552
02:52:16,520 --> 02:52:18,680
And we'll read white because he
this is cool.

2553
02:52:20,520 --> 02:52:24,640
When we say light, says the
Sophia Christie quote, we think

2554
02:52:24,640 --> 02:52:28,560
of our kind of light, UN quote.
But that's wrong.

2555
02:52:28,800 --> 02:52:31,400
When we say marriage, for
example, and the and this is

2556
02:52:31,400 --> 02:52:34,960
nibbly talking in the other
world, it will be entirely

2557
02:52:34,960 --> 02:52:41,120
different from what it is here.
What in the heck, though?

2558
02:52:41,120 --> 02:52:44,600
Of course we must designate
earthly and heavenly marriage by

2559
02:52:44,600 --> 02:52:48,000
the same name.
Even though spirits may be

2560
02:52:48,000 --> 02:52:52,200
eternal and thus equal in age,
this writing explains, they

2561
02:52:52,200 --> 02:52:56,240
differ in intelligence, in
appearance, and in other things.

2562
02:52:56,240 --> 02:53:02,840
What the And these differences
are primary, as unbegotten as

2563
02:53:02,840 --> 02:53:06,960
the spirits themselves.
Primary, meaning they've always

2564
02:53:06,960 --> 02:53:08,080
been.
Right.

2565
02:53:08,600 --> 02:53:10,480
It is not something that's
acquired.

2566
02:53:10,840 --> 02:53:18,040
We are just different, Primary
and unbegotten and No2 alike.

2567
02:53:20,160 --> 02:53:22,760
Can you imagine?
Can you imagine Ken Peterson at

2568
02:53:22,760 --> 02:53:25,160
age 27, reading that for the
first time going?

2569
02:53:26,640 --> 02:53:35,320
Time out here we are just
different, primary and

2570
02:53:35,400 --> 02:53:40,120
unbegotten.
That's an interesting word,

2571
02:53:40,200 --> 02:53:44,120
right?
Especially for for us who follow

2572
02:53:44,120 --> 02:53:52,640
the the only begotten.
There's there is some some deep

2573
02:53:52,640 --> 02:53:55,280
stuff there to unpack.
Holy cow.

2574
02:53:55,760 --> 02:53:59,480
Well, that's Abraham, Chapter 3,
Doctrine Covenant, Section 93.

2575
02:54:00,120 --> 02:54:03,360
Uncreated, we are no law and we
are eternal.

2576
02:54:04,600 --> 02:54:08,800
Yeah, I mean the essence of who
we are, yes, our physical bodies

2577
02:54:08,800 --> 02:54:13,320
were, yes, our spirit bodies
were created for us, but all to

2578
02:54:13,320 --> 02:54:18,360
house this primary independent
intelligence that we have always

2579
02:54:18,360 --> 02:54:23,720
been.
The Lord tells the apostles in

2580
02:54:23,720 --> 02:54:27,240
the Epistle of the Apostles
quote where my father is.

2581
02:54:27,240 --> 02:54:29,040
It's entirely different from
this world.

2582
02:54:29,560 --> 02:54:32,600
There you will see lights that
are nobler than your kind of

2583
02:54:32,600 --> 02:54:36,320
light, the millions of worlds
that God has made for his Son.

2584
02:54:36,880 --> 02:54:40,920
Every world is different from
the others and wonderful in its

2585
02:54:40,920 --> 02:54:43,640
own radiance.
Quoting the Odes of Solomon

2586
02:54:43,640 --> 02:54:48,840
quote hints one of the joys of
existence is that the world's

2587
02:54:48,840 --> 02:54:53,520
constantly exchange with each
other what they have, each

2588
02:54:53,520 --> 02:54:56,760
possessing something different
and peculiar to itself.

2589
02:54:57,360 --> 02:55:01,320
There is nothing superfluous
anywhere, which means that

2590
02:55:01,320 --> 02:55:07,200
nothing is a mere duplication of
something else, UN quote.

2591
02:55:07,960 --> 02:55:13,120
Which helps me comprehend why
creation is infinite, because

2592
02:55:13,640 --> 02:55:17,240
there's no copying anything.
Everything, everything that

2593
02:55:17,240 --> 02:55:23,720
becomes a part of God's Kingdom
is new, is different, you may

2594
02:55:23,880 --> 02:55:25,880
Nibley says.
You may wonder why we are not

2595
02:55:25,880 --> 02:55:29,600
sharing the fun here on earth.
That's because we have been

2596
02:55:29,600 --> 02:55:34,520
quarantined and I hadn't thought
of this probation being a

2597
02:55:34,520 --> 02:55:36,400
quarantine situation.
That's an.

2598
02:55:36,480 --> 02:55:38,560
That's an interesting word to
use there.

2599
02:55:39,240 --> 02:55:41,160
He goes on.
We've been isolated for a

2600
02:55:41,160 --> 02:55:45,080
special testing situation.
Remember, that's what the Lord

2601
02:55:45,080 --> 02:55:49,960
told Enoch when he was talking
about the world he had created.

2602
02:55:49,960 --> 02:55:52,720
Quote worlds without numbers,
quoting Moses.

2603
02:55:53,240 --> 02:55:56,280
And yet he told Enoch, among all
the workmanship of my hands,

2604
02:55:56,800 --> 02:56:00,880
there has not been so great
wickedness as among thy

2605
02:56:00,960 --> 02:56:04,400
brethren.
So where you are.

2606
02:56:04,440 --> 02:56:07,440
So when you are here, you are
getting a real test.

2607
02:56:07,680 --> 02:56:11,480
They talk a lot about that, this
test being so much harder.

2608
02:56:12,720 --> 02:56:15,520
There are all kinds of strange
beasts on other worlds that we

2609
02:56:15,520 --> 02:56:18,920
can't even imagine.
And Joseph Smith talked about

2610
02:56:18,920 --> 02:56:23,480
this, really nailed it.
In some worlds, reproduction is

2611
02:56:23,480 --> 02:56:25,640
carried out differently from
here.

2612
02:56:26,440 --> 02:56:29,480
The Zohar, perhaps the oldest
Jewish writing known, says,

2613
02:56:29,480 --> 02:56:33,800
quote, there are all sorts of
creatures or all sorts of

2614
02:56:33,800 --> 02:56:37,320
environments.
Only man is the same everywhere,

2615
02:56:37,800 --> 02:56:41,760
and yet he's the most individual
of all, UN quote.

2616
02:56:42,160 --> 02:56:45,560
That's wonderful, isn't it?
All these creatures adapt

2617
02:56:45,560 --> 02:56:49,080
themselves to different worlds,
like the monsters of the past,

2618
02:56:49,080 --> 02:56:52,080
dinosaurs, the Stegosaurus, and
various creatures living on

2619
02:56:52,080 --> 02:56:56,480
other geological ages.
They had to adapt themselves and

2620
02:56:56,480 --> 02:57:00,080
in other worlds it could be, it
could be the same thing, the

2621
02:57:00,080 --> 02:57:03,640
most fantastic forms of life.
Man is the only one that is the

2622
02:57:03,640 --> 02:57:07,440
same everywhere, because he
adapts himself in a different

2623
02:57:07,440 --> 02:57:09,600
way.
He's the most different of all.

2624
02:57:11,440 --> 02:57:15,760
Wow.
The spirits, says the Sophia

2625
02:57:15,760 --> 02:57:19,400
Christie, newly found
manuscript, are equal in age but

2626
02:57:19,400 --> 02:57:23,560
different in power, intelligence
and appearance, and have been so

2627
02:57:23,560 --> 02:57:28,360
throughout all time.
The devil has no real purpose.

2628
02:57:28,880 --> 02:57:32,200
All he is trying to do is thwart
someone else's purpose.

2629
02:57:32,800 --> 02:57:35,520
He has no principle of action
within himself.

2630
02:57:36,240 --> 02:57:42,160
He is Apollyon the Destroyer,
Satan or Diabolos the Accuser,

2631
02:57:44,120 --> 02:57:47,760
you know.
We see this pattern play out in

2632
02:57:47,760 --> 02:57:51,640
Earth if if you go back to that
other slide that we were just on

2633
02:57:52,200 --> 02:57:55,200
where it talks about the devil
has no real purpose.

2634
02:57:55,640 --> 02:57:59,680
Correct.
I was sitting in a Western civil

2635
02:57:59,680 --> 02:58:04,080
class once early when I was a
young man just going to college,

2636
02:58:04,760 --> 02:58:09,160
and we were talking about
Vikings and Nordic expansion.

2637
02:58:10,480 --> 02:58:13,160
And the question was asked,
well, what happened to him?

2638
02:58:13,160 --> 02:58:16,000
Right, 'cause they were fearless
warriors, right?

2639
02:58:16,000 --> 02:58:19,960
They would and, and Raiders is
probably the better word for it,

2640
02:58:19,960 --> 02:58:22,560
right?
And what, what happened to them?

2641
02:58:23,000 --> 02:58:26,640
Well, they kind of, they kind of
wore themselves out, right?

2642
02:58:26,640 --> 02:58:30,320
There's only so much raiding you
can do until you're forced to

2643
02:58:30,320 --> 02:58:32,280
build something.
Yeah.

2644
02:58:32,560 --> 02:58:37,960
Right, It's not sustainable.
Activities are unsustainable and

2645
02:58:38,760 --> 02:58:42,720
and Satan and his minions are
unsustainable, right?

2646
02:58:42,960 --> 02:58:45,080
If their sole purpose is
destruction.

2647
02:58:45,880 --> 02:58:50,920
One that could only possibly
ever go on so far, but two, we

2648
02:58:50,920 --> 02:58:54,320
also know God's not going to let
it get that far either, right?

2649
02:58:54,320 --> 02:58:59,840
And so understand that Satan's
very existence is 1, which is

2650
02:58:59,840 --> 02:59:04,560
almost guaranteed to end with
some sort of dissolution.

2651
02:59:05,320 --> 02:59:08,720
Yeah, that's very, very good.
That's a very good thought.

2652
02:59:09,520 --> 02:59:13,280
I was looking at.
I don't know if I I'm either I

2653
02:59:13,280 --> 02:59:15,000
skipped it or missed it or
something.

2654
02:59:15,720 --> 02:59:18,160
One of the things that he quotes
and one of the ideas that has

2655
02:59:18,160 --> 02:59:21,920
always stuck with me is one of
the joys of eternal existence is

2656
02:59:21,920 --> 02:59:26,800
endless variety.
And these quotes that they've

2657
02:59:26,800 --> 02:59:29,120
been beating around and I must
have missed the one where it

2658
02:59:29,120 --> 02:59:34,240
actually states that one of the
joys of eternal existence is

2659
02:59:34,320 --> 02:59:37,680
endless variety.
Which it would have to be,

2660
02:59:37,680 --> 02:59:41,080
right?
I mean, look, I can't think of a

2661
02:59:41,080 --> 02:59:44,200
more apt description of hell
than just staring at the same

2662
02:59:44,200 --> 02:59:48,280
thing over and over and over.
Yeah, that would be hell for me

2663
02:59:48,600 --> 02:59:49,560
for sure.
Right.

2664
02:59:49,680 --> 02:59:52,200
And so that that only makes
sense.

2665
02:59:55,360 --> 02:59:59,240
Well, my friend, I there's more
nibbly, but nothing I haven't

2666
02:59:59,240 --> 03:00:02,000
prepared any more nibbly.
You still want more?

2667
03:00:03,680 --> 03:00:09,400
Well, look, we could, we could,
we could do a four hour, a four

2668
03:00:09,400 --> 03:00:12,720
hour episode for each one of
these books and never really

2669
03:00:12,720 --> 03:00:17,240
touch any of them, right?
Well, I hope this has given

2670
03:00:17,240 --> 03:00:23,920
people kind of an overview of
what's out there and doing a

2671
03:00:23,920 --> 03:00:29,560
deep dive on some of these
essays so you can see how far

2672
03:00:29,560 --> 03:00:38,120
reaching his mind is.
And his research was is And I I

2673
03:00:38,120 --> 03:00:43,640
said before, but in in preparing
for these presentations, what

2674
03:00:43,640 --> 03:00:49,320
struck me that I hadn't realized
because I've been imbibing

2675
03:00:49,320 --> 03:00:58,520
unably for 40 years, is how much
a part of my psychology his

2676
03:00:58,520 --> 03:01:03,360
expoundings have become.
That the reason I think the way

2677
03:01:03,360 --> 03:01:06,120
I do, the reason I believe the
way I do is because of the

2678
03:01:06,120 --> 03:01:10,160
profound influence his
explanations have been on my

2679
03:01:10,160 --> 03:01:13,400
life.
As you see these like treasures

2680
03:01:13,400 --> 03:01:15,520
in the heavens and unrolling the
scrolls.

2681
03:01:16,120 --> 03:01:20,680
And of course, my own life's
work is in the publication of of

2682
03:01:20,680 --> 03:01:26,360
my book was a direct result of
me being influenced by what

2683
03:01:26,440 --> 03:01:29,840
Unively was researching and
saying and sharing.

2684
03:01:31,600 --> 03:01:32,080
Wow.
Yeah.

2685
03:01:34,720 --> 03:01:37,480
Who can you say that about?
You know, I, I am who I am.

2686
03:01:37,480 --> 03:01:42,120
I think how I am in great
measure because I was reading

2687
03:01:42,400 --> 03:01:46,800
and being influenced deeply,
profoundly by Hugh.

2688
03:01:46,840 --> 03:01:53,360
Nibley, as I think about Nibley
and I think about the the things

2689
03:01:53,440 --> 03:01:57,120
that he brought forth, right?
And not brought forth in terms

2690
03:01:57,120 --> 03:02:02,160
of how Joseph Smith brought them
forth, but back to what we

2691
03:02:02,160 --> 03:02:03,840
talked about in that first
episode.

2692
03:02:04,160 --> 03:02:07,080
He's the great expounder.
Yes, yes.

2693
03:02:09,200 --> 03:02:14,200
What he really is is that he's a
gift to certainly to Mormonism

2694
03:02:14,840 --> 03:02:20,400
and mankind, right?
Because here's a guy who was

2695
03:02:20,400 --> 03:02:25,440
blessed by God to have the mind
that he had that wasn't

2696
03:02:25,440 --> 03:02:30,920
concerned with getting rich with
the things of this world.

2697
03:02:31,520 --> 03:02:33,480
He was concerned with the
knowledge of them.

2698
03:02:34,240 --> 03:02:39,720
And the gifts that I think he
left for Mormonism is if if you

2699
03:02:39,720 --> 03:02:46,760
are someone that has to make
sense of it up here and in, in

2700
03:02:46,760 --> 03:02:53,200
the heart, he's your guy, right?
He's your guy because he's he's

2701
03:02:53,200 --> 03:02:57,800
going to show that you do stand
on solid bedrock by believing in

2702
03:02:57,800 --> 03:03:02,320
the restoration.
And likewise, he shows that that

2703
03:03:02,320 --> 03:03:06,200
our faith is an ancient faith
restored, right.

2704
03:03:07,680 --> 03:03:12,200
The, the other gift that I
believe he's given Mormonism is

2705
03:03:12,200 --> 03:03:17,360
a far more expansive version of
Mormonism and what we had been

2706
03:03:17,360 --> 03:03:21,760
Privy to up to that point.
Unless you knew, unless you knew

2707
03:03:21,760 --> 03:03:24,920
Brigham or unless you knew
certain people who were really

2708
03:03:24,920 --> 03:03:29,040
well acquainted with them.
He, he, I, I think one of the

2709
03:03:29,040 --> 03:03:33,480
things that Nibley does so well
through his research and through

2710
03:03:33,480 --> 03:03:41,240
his, his insights into some of
those ancient texts is to show

2711
03:03:41,560 --> 03:03:45,320
that we don't have to be limited
in our thinking when we talk

2712
03:03:45,320 --> 03:03:46,720
about the gospel and when we
think.

2713
03:03:46,720 --> 03:03:51,680
And, and that is the gift of the
restoration.

2714
03:03:51,680 --> 03:03:55,120
And that's a gift that I think
was re emphasized by by Hugh

2715
03:03:55,120 --> 03:03:57,960
Nibley.
When he would say nothing

2716
03:03:57,960 --> 03:04:00,160
inspires.
Or was it Joseph Smith?

2717
03:04:00,560 --> 03:04:04,280
Nothing inspires men like the
contemplation of the eternities.

2718
03:04:04,520 --> 03:04:08,600
Yep.
And you and I get the sense from

2719
03:04:08,600 --> 03:04:11,440
him and from his writings, this
joy.

2720
03:04:12,400 --> 03:04:13,720
Yeah.
And he spells it.

2721
03:04:13,720 --> 03:04:16,480
It's just fun.
And he, it's almost like he's

2722
03:04:16,480 --> 03:04:17,920
laughing when he says these
things.

2723
03:04:17,920 --> 03:04:22,000
And, you know, not laughing in a
mocking sense, of course, but

2724
03:04:22,880 --> 03:04:27,840
because it makes him joyful.
Absolutely, absolutely.

2725
03:04:30,000 --> 03:04:34,920
And we only scratched the very,
very surface, right?

2726
03:04:34,960 --> 03:04:37,240
Like.
Wow, thanks a lot.

2727
03:04:38,280 --> 03:04:39,920
No, no, you know what I'm
saying?

2728
03:04:40,440 --> 03:04:43,520
I know I'm messing with you you.
Know what I'm saying?

2729
03:04:45,120 --> 03:04:50,120
Look, I guess my hope is, is
that people will, whether you're

2730
03:04:50,120 --> 03:04:54,960
a mainstream LDS person or
you're a fundamentalist, Nibley

2731
03:04:54,960 --> 03:04:59,520
has something for you.
Nibley has put in the work for

2732
03:04:59,520 --> 03:05:03,840
you to benefit from when it
comes to these deeper things and

2733
03:05:03,840 --> 03:05:09,920
understanding the complex about
the gospel and bringing them

2734
03:05:09,920 --> 03:05:14,120
down in a way that is digestible
and in a way that can be very

2735
03:05:14,120 --> 03:05:16,080
applicable.
And I just hope everyone takes

2736
03:05:16,200 --> 03:05:21,160
takes the time necessary to at
least give him a cursory reading

2737
03:05:21,160 --> 03:05:23,160
'cause if you do that, you're
going to go deeper anyway.

2738
03:05:23,960 --> 03:05:28,600
It's, you know, it, it's, it's a
far gone conclusion.

2739
03:05:28,960 --> 03:05:33,160
But can anything else you want
to say in in conclusion bud?

2740
03:05:35,640 --> 03:05:41,840
No, just to reiterate, nothing
excites men like the

2741
03:05:41,840 --> 03:05:44,680
contemplation of the eternities
that is.

2742
03:05:44,680 --> 03:05:50,160
So there's nothing in my life
more exciting or that I enjoy

2743
03:05:50,160 --> 03:05:54,880
talking about or sharing or
listening or discussing more

2744
03:05:55,600 --> 03:06:00,720
than this great plan of
salvation which expounded by

2745
03:06:01,160 --> 03:06:05,480
people like Q Nibley and Joseph
Smith, Brigham Young, Jack Welch

2746
03:06:05,520 --> 03:06:13,000
and others.
It could take a rotten situation

2747
03:06:13,000 --> 03:06:20,920
and flip it and make you feel,
oh, I remember one of the things

2748
03:06:20,920 --> 03:06:25,400
that Nibley said about if you
truly understood the plan of

2749
03:06:25,400 --> 03:06:28,640
salvation, you would shout
Hallelujah all the day long.

2750
03:06:30,720 --> 03:06:33,000
So even in hard times, we would
understand this.

2751
03:06:33,000 --> 03:06:36,720
So when God says he will never
leave us, well, he's not here

2752
03:06:36,720 --> 03:06:39,320
right now.
Well, when you understand the,

2753
03:06:39,520 --> 03:06:44,880
the whole plan, it's true.
He's never we.

2754
03:06:44,920 --> 03:06:50,280
We are never utterly abandoned.
Absolutely, absolutely.

2755
03:06:51,160 --> 03:06:54,480
Well, Ken, as always, dude, I
love these talks.

2756
03:06:54,480 --> 03:06:56,320
I love you.
I love talking to you.

2757
03:06:56,320 --> 03:06:58,560
I and I can't wait for our next
one.

2758
03:06:59,080 --> 03:07:01,000
Thanks, Dave.
I always have a lot of fun.

2759
03:07:01,440 --> 03:07:02,880
You're a great friend.
I appreciate it.

2760
03:07:03,080 --> 03:07:05,720
You are to me as well.
And I, I look forward to doing

2761
03:07:05,720 --> 03:07:09,360
this again on Enoch.
We're we're tackling.

2762
03:07:09,480 --> 03:07:11,400
Oh, I'm excited already all.
Right.

2763
03:07:11,400 --> 03:07:13,400
All right.
Thanks, Ken.

2764
03:07:13,640 --> 03:07:47,360
Bye everybody,
you're listening to the morning.