Episode #151: Hugh Nibley Part 1 W/Ken Peterson

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There are certain men in the
Restoration who've left a large

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footprint on Mormonism.
Some are theologians, others

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have been leaders, and some were
scholars.

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Today we're going to be talking
about a man who certainly left

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his mark.
Ken Peterson joins me for the

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next two weeks as we have a
couple of conversations about

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Hugh Nibley and his teachings.
Now this week we're going to

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focus really on Hugh Nibley the
man.

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We talk about Nibley's
childhood, his family,

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connections to early church
leadership, his education, his

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mission to Germany, his time in
the army during World War 2A,

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near death experience he had,
and his time at BYU.

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Now we finally finish this part
of the conversation up by

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talking about what his impact
has been on Mormonism at large.

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That and more on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade Podcast.

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you should definitely go check
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Listening to the Renegade
podcast.

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When, when there's certain
people in Mormonism whose shadow

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is just absolutely outstanding,
you can't get around it.

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You can't, you can't avoid them.
And I think Nibley's one of

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those guys.
Well, for sure, I, one of the

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things I do, I conduct the
Southern Utah Heritage Choir

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here in Saint George.
It's Saint George's version of

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the Tabernacle Choir, right,
That I mean, the church doesn't

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sanction that outside of the
Tabernacle Choir, but it's a

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large adult choir and we do
songs of faith and we tour and

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stuff.
We number between 150 and 200

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singers.
So last week as I was preparing

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for this, I just did an, an
informal straw poll, you know,

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in between songs and the, and
most of them are LDS.

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OK.
And I said who?

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Please answer me this.
Just shout out who you think it

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is.
The single greatest scholar of

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the Restoration and voices from
everywhere cunibly.

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Was there another name?
I mean, like real, really, No.

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Was there another name?
No, no, I'm not.

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I keep thinking about that.
And, and as renowned as he is, I

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would say most Latter Day Saints
don't know who he is.

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So I was kind of surprised, but
not surprised that so many

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people would, you know, shout
that out.

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And they knew.
And I had many of them in the

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group who knew him, who had
classes with him or had some

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connection with him somehow.
And I, the other thing that

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impressed me as, as I listened
to your podcast, and if I

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remember correctly, at least
three, maybe four of your guests

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cite Unibli and quote Unibli and
refer to Unibli as having had a,

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a life changing influence on
their lives.

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And I have to say when I'm one
of those people, we'll talk

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about that a little bit more of
it.

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I, I got so excited about
preparing this, as excited, I

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think, as I was about giving a
presentation on Joseph Smith and

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his influence on the world,
which was I felt honored to be

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able to extol what he has done
in that way.

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And I caught myself.
I'm like, wait a minute, Joseph

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Smith was the prophet of the
restoration, right?

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You Nibley is not Why am I so
excited about Hugh Nibley,

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right?
And, and it's because of the

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incredible impact that he has
had on my life personally.

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And it's what's really
interesting as I was reviewing

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these materials, I've been
reading and studying Hugh Nibbly

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since 1982.
Jeez.

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That's like about 42 years.
And as I read over again, some

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of the stuff that I read 42
years ago, which is still

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relevant, still mind blowing,
what I learned about myself is

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that the the person I am today,
the way I think and the way I

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perceive God is shaped in a very
large measure by some of the

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teachings of Hugh Nibley, which
by the way, they're not new.

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We'll talk about what his role
is relative to the restoration.

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But for people like me, I
immediately connected with how

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he his testimony, how he thinks
and how he learns and how he

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studies.
And it's been well, I fully

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credit him among others, but
mostly the top of the list, you

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nibbly with my own personal
steadfastness within the

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restored gospel because of how
he has framed the the doctrines,

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the teachings and the principles
of the gospel and how it helped

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me understand it better, more
deeply, more fully and more more

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profoundly.
Yeah.

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And the other thing about Hugh
is that in many ways he's above

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the fray, right?
Like, like he, he gets away with

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things that not many other
people get away from, get away

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with, right?
And I think that's because they

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knew who who Nibley was at
heart, but also because his

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scholarship was impeccable.
It there's just no getting

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around it when when you think of
of the greatest anything, right?

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Basketball, Michael Jordan,
right?

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Yeah.
Tom Brady, Mormon scholars, Hugh

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Nibley, Right.
It's right there.

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He is the greatest.
He has set the standard.

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And I'm not sure that standard
will ever be reached again.

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I think I would agree.
And what's really crazy about

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what he did the the the breadth
of his scholarship, the depth of

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his scholarship, the volume of
his scholarship was done at a

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time when he did not.
I mean, computers were not a

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thing.
Right he was.

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Typing his stuff out on his
Underwood manual typewriter and

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going back and forth to
libraries everywhere and making

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little 3 by 5 note cards to
remember all of his citations.

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And his citations are so
numerous that the endnotes of a

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of an essay or an article are
longer.

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They're more pages than the
actual essay.

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That's how thorough he wasn't.
That's a man who could have

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benefited from copy and paste.
I was one of the funniest things

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I was in 1997.
To my knowledge, it was the

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first time there was a digital
LDS library on ACD ROM, if

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people remember those, right?
So on that one CD-ROM, you'd buy

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this one CD-ROM for like 20 or
30 bucks and suddenly you had

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digital copies of 1500 texts and
you could search them all in

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seconds.
It was amazing.

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And now they still have stuff
like that.

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Most of it's online now, I
think.

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What's it called?
Link?

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Can't remember it now.
Gospel link, gospellink.com.

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And they have many times that
now 1500, that's online.

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I haven't accessed it lately.
I hope they're still going, but

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one of the people they asked,
but they specifically asked to

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review the LDS Collector's
Edition 97, was Hugh Nibley.

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Amongst all of these other
notable people.

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Now in 97, Hugh Nibley would
have been 87 years old.

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You know what he said?
One sentence.

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I wish I'd had this 40 years
ago.

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Oh, I bet.
I bet you know, there's there.

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There's something in surveying
that a lot of surveyors do.

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So everything is laid out in
mile squares, right?

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And in the old days, to break
down a section, you know, shoot

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all the monuments on those mile
squares, it took you a good

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solid, probably 3-4 days, right?
Well, now what now with GPS, we

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can literally do a section in
hours.

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That's amazing, right?
If, if they're well monumented,

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we can find them.
And often times when our

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satellite array is all messed up
or something like that, we'll

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say, yeah, those are former
surveyors.

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Like not on my watch.
You don't get to do that.

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So.
Yeah, yeah, but anyway, All

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right, dude, let's dive into the
presentation.

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I think I gave you sharing
permissions already, so you

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should be ready to rock there.
It's coming.

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Aw, young Hugh and old Hugh.
As I was thinking about how to

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frame this presentation, the
question occurred to me.

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Why Unipoli?
Why am I so obsessed with this

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man?
Wasn't really famous, wasn't

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notorious it within his circle
he is a legend.

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But why has he meant so much to
me?

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Why are we talking about him on
your podcast?

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Why did God choose him?
All right, Or you would ask

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Nibbly, why Hugh Nibbly did you
do all of this stuff?

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And so I wanted to present his,
the facts of his life as partial

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answers at least to those
questions.

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If you look at his lifespan,
born in 1910, died 2005.

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Consider what, three years old?
Yeah.

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Lived a very long time, a very
productive life.

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His last few years were were
bedridden just because he was

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95.
In any case, he witnessed the

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First World War, participated
Second World War, was in his

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prime when the Dead Sea Scrolls
were discovered, was in the

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premier position to report on
the rediscovery of the Joseph

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Smith papyri and so on and so
forth, which we're going to talk

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about.
But why are we talking about

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Unibli?
In a nutshell, it has to do with

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this, the collected works of
Unibli.

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Wow, How many volumes are is
that?

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Is that not 19?
Jeez. 19 volumes, and these are

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not the one in the middle is the
biggest tinkling symbols of

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sounding brass.
That's over 700 pages.

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Jeez.
These other fat ones, you see

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there are over 600 pages.
So these are essentially

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everything, almost everything
that he's done for almost a

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total of 10,000 pages.
And this is not just a him

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compiling stuff.
These are original essays on an

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incredible variety of topics.
When we meet next time, we're

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going to go over just to give
just to gloss over so people

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could see he's a bona fide
called a polymath.

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It's a genius who's a genius in
all all types of categories.

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Like Leonardo da Vinci was a
polymath.

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He was a great artist, a great
scientist.

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You know, all of this stuff.
This is Hugh Nibley.

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Like you, I've tried to think,
is there anyone else in the

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history of the restored gospel
or in history period who has

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produced 19 volumes, 10,000
pages of original thoughts,

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essays, research.
And I personally can't think of

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anyone.
It's really quite amazing.

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You know when when he's the kind
of guy where you know, if you're

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at a party or something and
you're like, well, I'm working

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on this and I'm working on this.
He's the kind of guy that comes

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along and says, I'm working on
this, this, this and this.

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And you're like, I've got
nothing, right?

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Like you're a stud.
I stink on ice.

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Good for you.
You.

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I mean, here's the thing.
Funny thing about him, if

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there's anything he hated it was
self promotion.

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Right.
He didn't do this for self

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aggrandizement.
In fact, he's not the one who

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published them.
He served clearly as editor,

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chief editor.
But we'll talk about the the key

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resources and the key people
that God brought into his life

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to make this possible.
I've tried to consider in terms

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of numbers the number of people
potentially who were, who have

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been affected positively, as I
have by his works, and it would

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have to number in the millions,
right?

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And you'll see that his life,
his whole life, was really about

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making this happen.
Yeah, quite amazing.

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Now, for your listeners, there's
a web address underneath the

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photograph.
You go to that web address and

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you can download free of charge
almost all 19 of the volumes.

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For some reason, they don't have
18 and 19.

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Really.
Yeah.

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I don't know why.
One eternal round and an

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00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,080
approach to the Book of Abraham.
I don't know why that's longer,

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00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,480
but I'm sure you could probably
find it somewhere if you looked.

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00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,680
But free PDF downloads, and the
wonderful thing about the PDF

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00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,080
downloads is you can do.
It's a searchable database.

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Yeah.
And so if you're researching

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00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,000
something, you just do Word
search and away you go.

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00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:55,360
And you can do it in minutes.
Something you could do now,

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00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,520
there's no excuse for ever a bad
sacrament talk at this point,

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00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,800
right?
I mean, at this point you can go

234
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,440
get some nibbly and you can get
get some fascinating stuff.

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00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,320
Just make sure you quote, you
know, you, you recognize the man

236
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,240
in your talk, right?
Quote your source.

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00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,480
But this point, there's no more
excuse for a real crappy

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00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,440
sacrament talks.
You've got you.

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00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,360
You've got a plenty of material
now.

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00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:29,360
Now as if this wasn't enough,
the other things that we know

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00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,640
that he is produced timely in
the timeless was a book that

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00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:39,600
predates the collected works of
Hume nible by about 5 or 6

243
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,280
years, Although I think all of
those almost all of those essays

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are now included in the
collected works.

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00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:50,680
Of course his teaching teachings
of the Book of Mormon semesters

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00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,000
1-2 and four semesters those are
also publishing good a hold of

247
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,600
those and teachings of the book
of Abraham.

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He, more so than any other
person I'm aware of,

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00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:09,920
specifically published scores of
articles for the inside or the

250
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,960
instructor or whatever it was
called in the previous

251
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,920
iterations of the official
Church magazine by request.

252
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,319
And they were series that he
would publish.

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And I didn't put here, but
imagine in 1957 when the Church

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00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,640
published the instruction manual
for the priesthood quorums.

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00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,280
They asked Humidly to do it.
Wow.

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00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:44,240
And it's now the book is now
it's called an approach to the

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00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:50,160
Book of Mormon, an approach to
the Book of Mormon.

258
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,680
That was that originally a, a, a
Melchizedek priesthood manual.

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00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,080
That was the priesthood manual
for 1957.

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00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:06,440
Apparently he would send the
drafts off to the committee and

261
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:12,520
the committee rejected every
single chapter because he

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00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,640
thought it was too demanding and
too hard.

263
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,000
The president of the church at
the time was David O McKay, and

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they were complaining that it
would make the corps members

265
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,800
have to reach too much.
And President Mckay's response

266
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,480
was, let them reach.
That's what we want.

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00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,960
You can imagine that, right?
Yeah.

268
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,440
That's awesome.
You know, as far as this

269
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magazine publications, I can
only imagine that that somewhere

270
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,920
there was an editor of that
church magazine going.

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00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,480
You know what?
We're short.

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00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,360
We don't have enough call Hugh,
right?

273
00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:50,800
He's got he's got to have
something cocked and ready.

274
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,000
Yeah, it's possible, but I think
a lot of it has to do with this

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00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,440
final category, an unknown
quantity of research for church

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00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:06,120
leadership.
Starting in 1946 through 1986,

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00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,840
when he was 76 years old, the
First Presidency in the Quorum

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00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:17,400
of the 12 Apostles repeatedly
made requests of him or research

279
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:24,000
that he would present to them in
private meetings in the early

280
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:29,160
years 1946 on it was apologetic
stuff like his first one he did,

281
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,720
he did voluntarily was a
response to Fan Brodie's No Man

282
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,040
Knows My History, which he
called No ma'am, That's not

283
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,480
history.
And apparently the church went

284
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:46,000
on to continue to request more
defensive articles to defend the

285
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,080
reputation and history of the
church.

286
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,360
And he was very, he dutifully
did it, but he didn't enjoy

287
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:56,040
doing that as much as he did
doing his original research.

288
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,480
And I think it was like, go
ahead.

289
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,960
When I get on the other side,
when it when everything's all

290
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,280
done and wrapped up, I'm going
to ask the Lord for one more

291
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,600
interview.
Right, I'm going to be like,

292
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:14,120
give me one more shot.
I want, I want 3 hours with

293
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:17,080
Nibley, right?
Please give me 3 hours with

294
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,800
Nibley.
And 'cause I can only imagine if

295
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,800
you had him sequestered for
three hours where you could ask

296
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,280
him questions, can you just
imagine the amount of knowledge

297
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,000
that he could pass on in that
time?

298
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,760
It would be astounding.
And when he taught and spoke, it

299
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,200
was like stream of
consciousness.

300
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,520
It would just start pouring out
because he had so much in his

301
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,320
head.
And what he was just really,

302
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,840
really good at was synthesizing
all of these disparate sources

303
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,920
and materials from different
places in history and times and

304
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,840
making sense of it all.
Which is one of the reasons the

305
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,480
authorities of the church would
rely on him, because he was his

306
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,240
ability to to put that stuff
together and draw sensible

307
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,080
conclusions, as we'll see next
time.

308
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,520
The two other ones that we know
of, Elder Dallin Oaks of the 12

309
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,960
apostles, spoke at Unibli's
funeral.

310
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:16,840
He gave the eulogy if he could
imagine.

311
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,880
He gave the eulogy because he
had been friends with Unibli for

312
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,640
50 years.
He was Unibli student at BYU,

313
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,840
you can imagine.
And then Dallin Oaks later

314
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:35,640
became ABYU president and so
they had that relationship.

315
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:42,600
And he related at the time at at
the eulogy how impressed he was.

316
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,080
The presidency in First Corps of
the 12th asked humidly to

317
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,400
prepare a presentation,
discussion of the atonement.

318
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,640
And so at a certain place in
time he met the presidency of

319
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,600
Corpsman 12 and others
presumably right spoke about it.

320
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,080
Could you imagine that?
And speaking about the

321
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,840
atonement, probably the the most
curious one to me.

322
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:14,920
In 1985, he was asked to present
information regarding the

323
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,960
ancient temple rites.
And by that time there had been

324
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:23,800
a very significant number of
ancient texts.

325
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,480
How many in?
In my book, they occupy 50 pages

326
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,400
of material, 50 pages of ancient
texts that detail temple

327
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,240
ordinances that only endowed
Latter Day Saints.

328
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,240
Yeah, you know, we go, oh, I
know what that is.

329
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,640
So they asked him to present on
that.

330
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:50,000
And in 1986, he met the First
Presidency in the Quorum of the

331
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:56,160
12 in the Salt Lake Temple for a
three hour meeting.

332
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,000
And presumably in the temple,
you could.

333
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,400
There's nothing you couldn't
talk about regarding temple

334
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,680
riots.
At the conclusion of the

335
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:09,800
meeting, he gave them each a
longer printed version of it

336
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,720
called the Development of the
Temple, and it was not long

337
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,840
after that that the alterations
to the presentation of the

338
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,160
endowment were made.
Was it 199091?

339
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:26,760
Something like that. 90 Yep.
So yeah, wouldn't you like to be

340
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,000
a family on the wall and.
Yeah.

341
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,080
Yeah, 'cause 'cause quite
frankly, like, 'cause we brought

342
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,280
him up before almost on everyone
we've done.

343
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,600
But the one that really stands
out to me is the one we did last

344
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,440
December where we were talking
about Joseph Smith and the cause

345
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,520
and, you know, Mormon cosmology
and the Egyptian endowment.

346
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so this is a guy who had a

347
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,760
different view on the endowment
than the rest of us, right?

348
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,400
We we understand or faithful
Latter Day Saints understand

349
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,720
that it's ancient in origin.
But Hugh, Hugh Nibley was the

350
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,840
first one that that put that on
the map.

351
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,560
Well, for sure.
And I I can't tell you what that

352
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,520
has meant to me, that my own
personal testimony, my witness

353
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,760
of what is true.
Hey, and this is people have

354
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,680
heard me before.
I am a doubting Thomas.

355
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,480
It's just my brain.
That's how it works.

356
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:28,920
You know, I was just to be
honest and to completely buy

357
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:34,560
into what occurs in our temples
is so different from what goes

358
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,720
on in the rest of the world, by
and large.

359
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,560
Right.
That for me to go in there in

360
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,840
full faith and participate in
full faith, I have to have, I

361
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,520
have to be pretty secure in the
fact that these are authentic.

362
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,440
And thanks to Hugh Nibley
amongst others, and the

363
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:58,480
discovery of these ancient
texts, I know for a fact that

364
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,440
these rites that are performed
in the temple, these ordinances

365
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,880
are at least as ancient as Jesus
Christ and before.

366
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:13,360
And some of those accounts are
Jesus Christ himself being the

367
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:18,520
officiator, teaching his
disciples and their wives things

368
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,600
like the prayer circle and signs
and tokens and stuff like that.

369
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,520
When I read that, I just, I just
melt.

370
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,400
It's like, OK, I believe I'm in.
Yeah.

371
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,680
Yep, it's real.
Yep.

372
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,400
And you know, Hugh, Hugh Nibley
is one of those guys who I think

373
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,760
for the first time ever in
Mormonism during his his

374
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,360
ministry, right?
And I will call it a ministry,

375
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,040
right?
I understand that he was paid by

376
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:50,440
BYU, but the work that he did
far, far exceeded just normal

377
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,560
scholarly work, right?
Oh my goodness.

378
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:59,360
So his, his ministry was
probably one of the 1st that

379
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:01,360
appealed to the head as much as
the heart.

380
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,640
Oh, for sure.
Right.

381
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,720
There's no question.
I mean, Joseph Smith did in all

382
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,840
of his working, but Hugh Nibley
was first and foremost a

383
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,520
scholar.
Absolutely.

384
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,800
And so he that's how he
approached his assessment of the

385
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,680
restoration of the gospel, which
is.

386
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:27,040
Yeah.
Well, I wanted to interject

387
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,240
here.
One of his daughters, in

388
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:36,280
speaking at his funeral, said
that the work that he was most

389
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,160
proud of, he said to her, was
his anonymous work.

390
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,480
The stuff in that bottom
category that we talked about

391
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,760
that he cannot take credit for,
which makes me, I even want to

392
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,520
know even more what that was.
Do we, do we have any idea what,

393
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,080
where that was published, what
that was?

394
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,560
Well, I, I get the three ideas
that we know that he did.

395
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,120
He did, you know, defending the
faith early on and probably

396
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:08,480
throughout the atonement and
temple rights Beyond that, I,

397
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,600
we're only guessing and it is
not published.

398
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,000
Some of it has been published
and we can only guess only like

399
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,280
Temple and Cosmos and stuff like
that would contain some of that.

400
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,800
So why, why do you think he went
anonymous on some of those?

401
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,840
Because it was not for public
consumption.

402
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,320
OK.
Perhaps because of its sacred

403
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,360
nature.
OK, Neil Maxwell, when he was

404
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:38,920
encouraging Hugh to publish on
the temple, he said, you, I, you

405
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,360
really need to publish this
stuff.

406
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,200
Just be careful about drawing
too many conclusions for people.

407
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:47,920
Gotcha.
OK.

408
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,120
Yeah, probably that.
OK.

409
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,120
And The funny thing is, as you
said, he's above the fray.

410
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,640
One of the reasons, I mean,
because there are many scholars

411
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,240
at Brigham Young, many good
scholars, but why did he have

412
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,280
such?
Why was he so implicitly

413
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,360
trusted?
And Elder Neil Maxwell, who was

414
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:14,280
an apostle now dead that many
years, but in the 1980s was

415
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,120
saying that has that was never a
question with Hugh Nibley, what

416
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:22,400
his motivations were because his
entire life, everything he did

417
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,280
was a testament of his
commitment.

418
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,640
So that was so he said that was
never in question.

419
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,840
You know, can we trust him to is
he doing it?

420
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:33,520
Is he doing it for the right
reasons?

421
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,520
Said all that was left was to
figure out what he was saying.

422
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,480
Wow.
It's quite so.

423
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,440
That's pretty amazing.
In addition to his published

424
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,640
legacy, this is a photograph of
Daniel Peterson.

425
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:57,720
If I had to point my finger at
any living scholar and say this

426
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,200
is the person that has inherited
the mantle of humility, or at

427
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,160
least in part I would say this
person here, Daniel Peterson,

428
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,240
because administratively what he
has done, he was highly

429
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,880
instrumental in administrating
farms and when farms later went

430
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:20,000
into the Neil Maxwell Institute.
But then there was kind of a, a

431
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,880
coup that occurred in the
Maxwell Institute which changed

432
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,880
it from instead of a more
defending of the faith

433
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,080
organization, turned it into
more of an, a politically

434
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:38,200
correct academic exercise.
And So what Daniel Peterson did,

435
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,320
he founded his brand new, the
new version of farms, which is

436
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,040
called The Interpreter, right?
Oh my goodness.

437
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,560
They're publishing amazing
stuff.

438
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,600
And they're also responsible for
movies like the movie about the

439
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,840
Book of Mormon witnesses.
Right.

440
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,320
So he has been super busy.
He's also a polymath in that

441
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,960
he's super well read.
He knows a variety of languages

442
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,880
and is able to defend the faith
on many, many different fronts.

443
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,760
Gotcha.
So to quote him as he talks

444
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,960
about cunibly is significant.
He said to do apologetics,

445
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:21,600
defending of the faith is a
covenant responsibility for

446
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,120
those who are in a position to
to do it.

447
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,440
Is it really?
Did we make covenants to defend

448
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,400
the faith?
I think so.

449
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,040
I think it's implicit, right?
And in that taking his name upon

450
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,160
us, I think it's implicit there,
right?

451
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,760
I I think not only do we take
his name upon us for, for our

452
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,000
own personal growth, but I think
also you're, you're basically

453
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,280
signing up to be a
representative, right?

454
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,400
I remember very.
I'll go on.

455
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,000
And, and part of that would be
to defend the faith that Jesus

456
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,640
weighs out.
Yeah, 14 years ago, I was just

457
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,440
surfing the Internet on Facebook
and a friend who has become

458
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,520
disaffected with the church was
being quite vocal about it,

459
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,600
public about it online.
And I thought, gosh, somebody

460
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:14,320
should get on there and at least
give the other side of this anti

461
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,440
Mormon propaganda, you know?
But I don't have time to do

462
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:19,760
that.
And you know what popped into my

463
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,320
head?
Alma at the Waters of Mormon.

464
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:29,240
Yeah.
Stand as a witness of God at all

465
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,400
times, in all things, in all
places you should be in, even

466
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:34,600
until death.
Yep.

467
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,760
It was so strange.
And so I've spent many late

468
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:45,440
nights responding as
straightforward and as politely.

469
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,680
And it's not personal, just at
the very least so people can

470
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,480
make an informed decision about
what they're reading.

471
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,040
Absolutely.
Anyway, it is.

472
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,520
It's a covenant responsibility.
He goes on to do it well as a

473
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,960
scholarly obligation to do it
with charity is a Christian

474
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,720
ideal.
Hugh Nibbly did it, and he did

475
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,520
it well.
He did it with a humorous

476
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,360
alertness to human foibles that
he was also entirely willing to

477
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,920
direct at himself.
I loved how he could laugh at

478
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:24,280
himself.
He judged the works of others as

479
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,520
he judged his own.
Of course, one thing that makes

480
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,320
our situation different now is
that we have a lot more people

481
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,600
with varied expertise.
They have teams of scholars now.

482
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,760
Hugh Nibley had to do it all by
himself.

483
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,680
In his day there was only 1 Hugh
Nibley and he didn't have a lot

484
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,120
of support.
So for the better part of 30 or

485
00:32:51,120 --> 00:33:00,680
40 years, he was The Lone Ranger
of LDS apologetics, taking on

486
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,320
all comers.
I'm doing it quite, quite well.

487
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,080
So the other side of that, this
man we're looking at here is

488
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,440
John W Welch, otherwise known as
Jack Welch.

489
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,680
His claim to fame, why?
He's an attorney from California

490
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,200
and he's taught at Brigham Young
University, taught law.

491
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,120
I want to go back for just a
second.

492
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,480
I forgot something.
There was a point in Hugh

493
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,600
Nibley's career at the
University of Brigham Young,

494
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,520
probably about halfway through
his tenure, I'm guessing.

495
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,200
He came back from a sabbatical,
I think, at the Chicago

496
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,720
Institute, and he went to the
administration.

497
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,200
He said I don't want because
he'd been teaching history and

498
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,600
languages and some religion.
And he said to them, I don't

499
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,920
want to teach languages and
history anymore, I just want to

500
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,280
teach religion.
Which is very interesting to see

501
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,920
how his priorities shifted and
what was really important to him

502
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,120
as time went on.
Do do we know what what the

503
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,480
catalyst for that was?
I don't know if it was a

504
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,520
specific catalyst.
His the purpose of his

505
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,320
sabbaticals was to learn
Egyptian.

506
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,800
And he started learning Egyptian
for reasons he didn't

507
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,440
understand.
He just felt compelled,

508
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,440
impressed, inspired to do so.
OK.

509
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:38,560
So we started learning Egyptian,
and this is this is a man who

510
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:44,360
already speaks 13 or 14
different languages and who can

511
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:51,400
read 24 languages.
And now he's taking up ancient

512
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,679
Egyptian hieroglyphics.
Wow.

513
00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:00,720
At the age of age 50, where most
of us are slowing down.

514
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,560
And he didn't know why until
1967, when the New York

515
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,920
Metropolitan Museum donated the
Joseph Smith papyri to the

516
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:18,920
church, fragments of the papyri
from which presumably the Book

517
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:24,000
of Abraham was translated.
And so he was perfectly prepared

518
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,720
at that time to jump in, to
assess them, to say what they

519
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:31,080
were, and to mount a discussion
of that on behalf of the church

520
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,680
at the church's request.
And what's really amazing, they

521
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,280
were, I think, donated like
November of 67.

522
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,880
And by January they were already
publishing Hugh's responses to

523
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,200
the discovery of those four
pyrite.

524
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,240
And I understand in those days
before the computer, it would

525
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:51,280
take that long just to publish
the General Conference talks,

526
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,360
right?
They're publishing all of this.

527
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:54,680
That's how important it was to
them.

528
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,720
And he was in a position to do
that anyway.

529
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:08,440
John Jack Welch's claim to fame.
And I want to say I have, I

530
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,400
think, as much respect for Jack
Welch as I do for Hugh Nibley.

531
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:17,600
Wow.
Were it not for Jack Welch, we

532
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,520
wouldn't have the collected
works of Hugh Nibley.

533
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,680
OK.
He, because of his expertise and

534
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,760
his devotion, he was able to
make that happen.

535
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,560
He and the thing I really love
about I, I heard him speak once,

536
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,320
never met you nibbly, but I did
hear Jack Welt speaking.

537
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,480
He's the kindest, humblest, most
unpresuming Here he is speaking

538
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,160
about life changing doctrines
and he's doing it.

539
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,640
You know, he's not pounding the
pulpit, you know, calling down

540
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,000
fire from heaven.
He's just telling it straight

541
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,680
up, presenting it humbly.
His single greatest claim to

542
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,720
fame?
He is the one person in all of

543
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:03,920
the earth that discovered
chiasmus in the Book of Mormon.

544
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:10,040
OK.
Chiasmus is the plural of the

545
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,400
word chiasm.
A chiasm is an ancient Hebrew

546
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,720
writing style.
There are.

547
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:23,760
The Hebrews were very well
trained in their writing styles

548
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,000
and they had a number of
techniques that they would use

549
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:33,160
to try and accentuate aspects of
teaching their religion.

550
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,520
And they're called Hebrewisms.
We now know that the Book of

551
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:44,920
Mormon is stuffed with
Hebrewisms everywhere, every

552
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,680
sentence, and it came to pass as
one of the most common ones and

553
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,320
how when you read it, it seems
like a little bit awkward

554
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,600
English and things are worded
backwards, that sort of thing.

555
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,280
Those are Hebrewisms.
That's how a Hebrew would speak

556
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,440
if they could speak in English,
right?

557
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:08,200
Chiasm is probably the more
complex, I would say.

558
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,080
Yeah, the most complex Hebrewism
I'm aware of.

559
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,720
Chiasmus is a form.
It's a reverse parallel

560
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,200
structure.
So let's say I was telling the

561
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,040
story that had five elements.
Right.

562
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,720
One, I would talk about one,
then two, then 3, then 4, then

563
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:33,800
five, and then I would repeat
those in reverse order 4321

564
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,760
again.
OK.

565
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:41,440
That's a chiasm.
So Jack Welch was on his mission

566
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,280
in Germany in the 60s, early
60s.

567
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,760
I think he and his companion
were going to a Bible study

568
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:56,000
class hosted by a Lutheran
minister, Lutheran pastor, and

569
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,840
it was a fairly new academic
study, The discovery of chiastic

570
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,640
structures in the Bible, which
is evidence that it was written

571
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,120
by Hebrews.
That's awesome.

572
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,640
Right.
He's to your missionaries and

573
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,800
go, this is awesome.
Hey, I would have threw some in

574
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,280
the Book of Mormon.
So they went home and lo and

575
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,760
behold, they found chiastic
structures in the Book of Mormon

576
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:26,000
little ones, big ones.
And they went back and they

577
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,680
knocked on the pastor's door and
they said, is this what you're

578
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,720
talking about?
And the pastor said, that's a,

579
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,760
that's a particularly beautiful
example.

580
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,960
That's a wonderful chasm.
Where did you find it?

581
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,920
And.
When they told him this from the

582
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,120
Book of Mormon, he slammed the
door and that was it.

583
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:52,600
Well, so Jack Welch, there is
one chiasm in the Book of Mormon

584
00:39:52,600 --> 00:40:00,640
in particular, which is the
largest and most flawless chiasm

585
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,760
known in history in all of
literature.

586
00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:08,640
It's Alma chapter 36 and Alma
chapter 36.

587
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:16,600
Alma the Younger is which son?
Gilman, I can't remember he was.

588
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,320
Recounting the story of his
conversion to one of his sons,

589
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,600
because he was telling it after
the fact and all this time to

590
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,440
think about it, he expressed it
in the form of a perfect chiasm

591
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:35,160
which had 17 elements.
Wow.

592
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,880
So he would.
He told the story of what

593
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:44,480
happened to him 12345 up to 17
and then reversed 161514131211

594
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:49,160
back down to one again.
Wow, the whole chapter is this

595
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:56,120
giant chiastic structure in a in
a sacred chiasm, What is one of

596
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,960
the key elements?
Is that the the pivot point in

597
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,160
the middle where it turns and
goes backwards usually centers

598
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,560
on deity or Christ.
In an Alma chapter 36, that is

599
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,400
exactly what happens.
Wow.

600
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,320
Alma 36, Alma Chapter 36, and
what I would encourage people to

601
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,280
do to discover for yourself is
really amazing.

602
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,920
The versification of that
chapter does not match the

603
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,080
chiasm.
Why?

604
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,560
Nobody knew it was there.
Right.

605
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:30,600
Joseph Smith didn't know it was
there, right?

606
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,760
Grandin, the printer didn't know
it was there.

607
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:39,000
Hadri, Nobody.
Nobody knew it was there for 130

608
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,120
years.
And that's not the only one in

609
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,320
the Book of Mormon.
Oh, no, there are many, many,

610
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,560
many, many.
Yeah, I don't know how many.

611
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,600
I mean, I'm sure I have my
favorites, but yeah, I'm sure

612
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,080
it's a coincidence.
It's fine.

613
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:57,920
Just move along.
In any case, if you look at

614
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,040
chapter 36, start in the first
verse and start in the last

615
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,080
verse and find the matching
words and you will find this

616
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,560
stair step pattern until they
get right up to the point where

617
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,280
Christ changes him.
Interesting.

618
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,160
Holy cow, that's amazing.
Yeah.

619
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,960
So that's Jack Welch.
He's the guy who did that.

620
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:26,120
His claim to fame.
Now the influence that Unibbly

621
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,520
has had numbered in the
thousands because they didn't

622
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,960
have the Internet.
Jack Welch, now he's the.

623
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,080
He's the head cheese.
I was calling that behind

624
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,760
Scripture Central dot.
Org.

625
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,760
Bookofmarmoscentral.com Evidence
Central, Pearl Great Price

626
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,600
Central all now under one house
Scripture Central on that

627
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:56,880
website, which has thousands
upon thousands of informative

628
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,720
explanations and straight up
evidences of the truthfulness of

629
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:06,200
the restored gospel.
And he does a weekly podcast for

630
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,600
the gospel doctrine curriculum.
He's retired.

631
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,440
He's I don't know how old he is.
He's got to be seventies, 80s,

632
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:17,680
but and yet it's, it's not, it's
never about him, but he's just

633
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,840
so devoted and so constant.
OK, talked off when he this is

634
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,240
what he says about Unibli, which
is critical for us to understand

635
00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:28,240
in terms of where the gospel is
today.

636
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,320
Although he Unibli has not
walked down every hallway, he

637
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,840
has gone along opening doors
which others will have to walk

638
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:45,400
through for many years to come.
And when we meet next time to

639
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,000
talk about all of his teachings,
you will see that he opened

640
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:55,960
hundreds of doors and he really,
he did more than open.

641
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:01,520
I mean he did some walk in and
he So what that means is now

642
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:08,120
because of him and because of
the I mean nearly every latter

643
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,200
day St.
Scholar today was a student of

644
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,040
his or influenced directly or
indirectly in some fashion by

645
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,720
him.
And I include myself my my

646
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:25,480
efforts in my publication to try
to make sense of the hundreds of

647
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,000
extra canonical writings is a
direct result of my studies of

648
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,360
the writings of you nible.
He pioneered that.

649
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:38,160
And I could only imagine, what
with the I mean, the resources

650
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,960
that I have today would have
required a team of a dozen

651
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,880
scholars in his day because they
didn't have the computer.

652
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,240
And I I often wonder, I I
wondered myself.

653
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:50,560
I wonder if he would like my
butt.

654
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,720
I wonder if he'd like it.
Yeah, I have to.

655
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,800
I think so.
It's right down his alley.

656
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,000
You'd have to look.
I I think so you, you know,

657
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,960
where where he was initially.
The guy who, look, I don't want

658
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,080
to say open doors.
In some ways, I think Hugh

659
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,960
Nibley kicked down those doors,
right, because those weren't

660
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,560
doors that anyone was excited
about opening, right?

661
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,880
And Hugh Nibley just was like,
well, we'll do it anyway.

662
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:19,880
Well, consider this.
Yeah, go ahead.

663
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,440
And.
And you got to respect that kind

664
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,920
of just throwing caution to the
wind.

665
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,000
I'm engaged in a good cause,
come what may, and go for it.

666
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,360
Yeah.
Yeah.

667
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:36,000
And what we don't recognize
fully, I don't think that the

668
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,000
time in which he lived, he was
talk about a pioneer.

669
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:45,440
Yeah, he was talking about the
Dead Sea Scrolls before any of

670
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,360
them had been published.
Right.

671
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,720
The Dead Sea Scrolls were just,
for example, discovered in 1947,

672
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:57,080
and he began talking about them
in the 60s, less than 15 years

673
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,880
later, before all of them had
even been translated.

674
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,680
Right.
I mean, talk about a pioneer.

675
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,320
So he was he was talking about
and drawing conclusions from and

676
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,520
synthesizing information from
documents that were only just

677
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,880
barely being translated, and
some of them translated by him

678
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,880
because they didn't have English
translations yet.

679
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:23,320
So the conclusions he was
drawing honestly are still way

680
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,680
ahead of his time.
Wow, still relevant.

681
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,920
Anyway, that's a photograph of
Dallin Oaks, former president of

682
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:39,280
BYU, dressed up as Cosmo.
I have to wonder what he thinks

683
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,920
of that photo.
He said.

684
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,000
Hugh Nibley's humility was also
evident in his disinterest in

685
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,480
acquiring disciples.
It was never about him.

686
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,680
Admirers, helpers and supporters
he had in abundance, but they

687
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,360
were always unsought and
unbidden.

688
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,480
Truman Madsen, another great LDS
scholar, like great Truman

689
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,600
Madsen, perceptible, he notes,
when it came to disciples,

690
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,840
Nibley sent to them on to the
only one who deserves disciples.

691
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,360
So when we talk about what
qualified Hugh Nibley to do what

692
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,280
he did, a very big part of that
was his humility.

693
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,640
It was never about him.
It was always his motivations

694
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,360
were true, Right.
We'll talk some more about why

695
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:31,040
that is.
We all have roles to play in one

696
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,640
another's lives.
Sometimes it's just introducing

697
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,680
us to various things.
You know, two of the people in

698
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,200
this photograph, that's me in
the middle.

699
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:48,160
That was, I was on my mission in
the Japan Fukuoka mission,

700
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:53,480
Southern Island back in 82.
Look at the young, strapping Ken

701
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,920
Peterson in that photo.
Yeah.

702
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,880
Look at the greatness destined
about Mormonism and the

703
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:04,800
apocrypha.
And that is the Yamada family,

704
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:06,960
wonderful family that we were
meeting with.

705
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:12,240
Husband doesn't work as Japanese
guys do, kids.

706
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:19,800
My companion that I have my arm
around his former wife, you.

707
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,120
It was on your podcast not too
many weeks ago.

708
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,160
Cheryl Bruno.
Oh, OK.

709
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:26,760
All right.
Yep, Yep.

710
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,400
Cheryl.
So this is Joe Steve Swick, the

711
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,400
third.
OK, so Joe and Cheryl and Nick

712
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,360
Littersky co-authored the book
about Freemasonry.

713
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,320
What's it called?
Relaying the main about

714
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,200
Freemasonry and history of the
temple endowment.

715
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:52,480
Fascinating conversation was the
reason this is important to me

716
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:00,840
and the reason why, regardless
of what happens to any of the

717
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:06,960
people involved, I will be
forever grateful to and indebted

718
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,600
to Joe Swick.
Elder Swick, my companion.

719
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,880
He's the one who introduced me
to Unibli.

720
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,760
OK.
And not just to Unibli, but to

721
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,960
the to farms.
The foundation for ancient

722
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,200
research.
Worm studies, which represented

723
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,120
Mormon intellectualism at its
finest in those days.

724
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:34,280
Which is exactly what I
desperately needed to live a

725
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:38,800
steadfast, faithful life.
And it was because of him.

726
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,880
We talked about that the first
time you and I ever talked,

727
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,480
right, when we first talked
about your book, Mormonism in

728
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:45,600
the Apocrypha.
Yeah.

729
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,320
Yeah.
By the way, I can't recommend it

730
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,560
highly enough.
You should go by Mormonism in

731
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,440
the Apocrypha, Mormon doctrine
in the Apocrypha, Mormon

732
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,320
doctrine in the Apocrypha.
That's right.

733
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:59,400
Beautiful book for, for, for so
many people.

734
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,920
Well, I'll let you tell this
part right 'cause 'cause you,

735
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,760
you realized early on you were a
little different, right?

736
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:09,160
For most people.
Who, who, who were at church

737
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:10,400
with you?
In what way?

738
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,760
I think I first picked up on
this.

739
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,040
I mean, when you're a kid, you
only know what you know, your

740
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:21,320
perception.
I was not much older than 5

741
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,640
going to my Sunday school class,
and it's my first conscious

742
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:29,280
memory of hearing.
He counted the first vision, and

743
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,960
my natural response to hearing
the first vision was to doubt it

744
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,040
because I had a friend across
the street who'd make up stuff

745
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,080
like that all the time.
OK.

746
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:41,640
Make up stories to get
attention.

747
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,440
And I thought at all, I know
what Joseph Smith was doing, he

748
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,080
was just trying to get attention
with his fancy stories.

749
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:54,160
Right.
So that I I'm not a naturally

750
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,800
believing I've I've all.
I don't know why It's not

751
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,120
because my family's this way.
My siblings aren't necessarily

752
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,360
this way.
I'm a natural born skeptic.

753
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,760
Maybe, maybe, maybe it's because
of my early exposure to, there

754
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:10,640
are a couple of guys in this
town that I grew up in.

755
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,120
There were just big fat liars
always telling the whoppers,

756
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,160
trying to impress it, you know,
stuff like that.

757
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,920
And so I, I just grew up not
trusting, not taking anybody at

758
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:26,120
their word really, unless I knew
them well and I knew what they

759
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:27,600
stood for and all that sort of
thing.

760
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,360
Right, so.
Being a natural born skeptic, it

761
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,720
was critical for me to have
enough information, evidence, if

762
00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:43,440
you want to call it that, to
subdue my skepticism, to

763
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:48,400
overcome my skepticism so that I
could know what was true, what

764
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:53,800
was not right and unibly.
Was that for me among others,

765
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,920
you know, and farms and later
the Maxwell Institute and now

766
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,240
the interpreter, all that sort
of thing.

767
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:13,200
And I, I can say quite
confidently today that my

768
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:17,560
reasons for living as I live and
pursuing and trying to be a

769
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:22,320
faithful Latter day St. are
based on, well, Elder Holland

770
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:27,920
called it thousands of evidences
of the truthfulness of the Book

771
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,560
of Mormon and of the restoration
of the Pearl of Great Price, the

772
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,280
Book of Abraham, the book of
Moses.

773
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,160
I mean, in doctrine Covenants,
the prophecies of Joseph Smith

774
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,560
and the fulfillment of those
prophecies in the latter days.

775
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,840
I can't.
It's not that I want to sin or

776
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,080
I, I actually like being a
Mormon.

777
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,480
I enjoy it and I enjoy
associating, affiliating with

778
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,360
other good Latter day Saints.
I, I, I like being that.

779
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:03,160
But there's a certain strength
and a commitment and a fire that

780
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:08,560
comes along with having an
undeniable knowledge of the

781
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,520
truthfulness of what Joseph
Smith was trying to tell us,

782
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:18,160
right.
So anyway, Joe Swick, I

783
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,120
understand he's in a care
facility now.

784
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,440
If I could, I'd run up to me.
Just give him a hug and thank

785
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,480
you for what he is meant to be
in his life.

786
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,760
And I and I understand that we
don't we've crosswords a couple

787
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,160
times since online because we
don't necessarily agree.

788
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:37,360
Doesn't doesn't matter.
It doesn't change what he gave

789
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:43,520
me, right.
And then the I, I OK, I've got

790
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:49,760
on too long about this, but I,
I, I good because it it's how

791
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,040
Hugh, Hugh Nibley affected you,
right?

792
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,240
And we all have have those
stories.

793
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:00,280
I mean, certainly with me.
I mean, gosh, I'll, I'll relate

794
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:02,320
something personal.
My younger brother, who's two

795
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,560
years younger than me, when I
told him I was going to become a

796
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,080
Mormon, he kind of picked up the
Book of Mormon, you know, the

797
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,760
Freeburg paintings that are in
there.

798
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,920
And he's like, so you're telling
me that there were like Romans

799
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:20,040
in ancient America, right?
And I'm like, not really Romans.

800
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,840
I can see how you can think that
basically, but he's like, OK, so

801
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,280
let me get this straight.
An old dude from Israel got in a

802
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:33,920
boat with his family and sailed
over to the Americas and lived

803
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,640
there.
It's like, yes.

804
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,200
And at the time I had nothing to
back that up, right?

805
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,960
He would say, how could you
believe that, right?

806
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,080
And all I could say was I just
received a witness of it.

807
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,960
That was it, right?
It wasn't until somebody

808
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,880
introduced me a Nibley where I
was like, oh, I wish I had this

809
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:59,600
four years ago.
Your your story reminds me, Dan

810
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,920
Peterson's father was not a
member or an active member.

811
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:08,960
All the while Dan was growing up
until he went on his mission and

812
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:13,200
his father finally read Hugh
Nibley.

813
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,080
I don't recall exactly which
book it was, but he finished

814
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,560
reading the book and he asked
his missionary son Dan, who

815
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:26,560
later baptized him.
I mean, he no doubt a good and

816
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,120
very rational human being who
like your brother was like, how

817
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:31,760
Can you believe this crazy
story?

818
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:36,120
But after reading the facts of
history as presented by Hugh

819
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:42,080
Nibley, it causes a doubting
Thomas, like myself and like Dan

820
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:46,920
Peterson's father to say this is
it.

821
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,240
Could this actually be true?
I mean, it's sometimes it this

822
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:56,080
story is so fantastic that until
you read the facts of it, if

823
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,760
your mind, it doesn't even occur
to your mind that it could

824
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:03,200
actually be fact, that it could
actually be real until you read

825
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,120
the convincing facts of history
that bear it out.

826
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:13,160
And I saw I like me and like Dan
Peterson's father and like you

827
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:18,360
and millions of others.
I'm quite sure we're grateful to

828
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,400
somebody to break it down for us
like that and to do that work.

829
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:30,960
And I forgot to let me see if I
can find it real quick.

830
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:43,940
He
well, let's see.

831
00:56:45,620 --> 00:56:48,320
I hope I can find it now that
I've thought of it.

832
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:58,200
His motivation for doing this,
he realized what his research

833
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,160
meant to so many and it what I
think a lot of it was driven

834
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,120
because he was teaching these
college kids and they had all of

835
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:10,640
these questions for him and oh,
nuts.

836
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:19,600
I haven't found it, but let me
paraphrase then he, he loved,

837
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:25,160
he, he considered it a privilege
to be the one to help answer

838
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,320
people's questions.
He loved doing that.

839
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,720
And he took it as a personal
responsibility.

840
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,880
And that was, you can see that's
part of his success, that he was

841
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,960
doing it from a place of
righteousness and a place of

842
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,960
charity.
OK, So what nibbly is to me

843
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,400
then, as I have here on the
slide, he's the expounder for

844
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:51,440
me, an expounder is a person who
explains so like the weird

845
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:52,920
language stuff in the Book of
Mormon.

846
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:58,080
He explains why that is and how
that actually turns out to be an

847
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:02,160
inexplicable evidence of its
veracity, Right?

848
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,000
I mean, it's, it's a truly an
ancient record.

849
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:09,760
All right.
I've put together this brief

850
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:14,240
timeline of significant events
in his life that, in my view,

851
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:22,120
shaped him, prepared him to be
the witness and the expounder

852
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,800
that he became.
His grandfather was Charles

853
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:31,360
Nibley in 19 O 7.
His grandfather, Charles Nibley

854
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,720
was made presiding Bishop of the
whole church by Joseph F Smith,

855
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,800
1910.
Hugh Nibley was born in

856
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,800
Portland, OR, where his father
was working on one of his his

857
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,920
grandfather, Charles Nibley, was
at one time the wealthiest man

858
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:54,320
in Utah and had three wives,
practiced plural marriage and

859
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:59,560
was at eluded authorities and
nearly was imprisoned that huge

860
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:01,240
grandfather.
Yeah.

861
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:08,720
OK. 1921 The Nibleys moved to
Los Angeles after the sugar beet

862
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,240
farm that his dad was working on
went out of business.

863
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,920
OK.
In 1925, the grandfather,

864
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:20,520
Charles Nibley is chosen by
Hebrew J Grant to be the second

865
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:22,160
counselor in the First
Presidency.

866
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:28,040
It's one of the few examples in
church history where a a

867
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,640
counselor was made a counselor
without having been an apostle

868
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:35,600
first, from presiding Bishop to
2nd counselor.

869
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:38,920
Was his grandfather kind of
wired like you?

870
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:45,080
Was he a scholar as well?
I, I don't know that so much.

871
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:51,280
I don't know that my, what I've
read about the grandfather,

872
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:56,920
Charles Nibley, is it very, very
kind.

873
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:00,560
All of his employees just
flocked to him because he, he

874
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,240
just loved everybody.
And he loved Hugh Nibley and he

875
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,000
loved the family and always very
generous.

876
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,160
He he liked having money because
he could give people things.

877
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:17,400
And he really liked Capitalist,
and I have it on another slide,

878
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:25,000
but Hugh Nibley's great
grandfather on his grandmother's

879
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:29,320
side, Charles Nibley's first
wife, Nebower, was the very

880
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,480
first Jewish convert to the
restored gospel and the very

881
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,480
first dentist in Utah.
Holy cow.

882
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:42,080
So let's see how close he was
and it'll read more about

883
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,760
Charles Nibley.
But his great, his grandfather,

884
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,760
Charles Nibley would tell Hugh
stories, personal stories of his

885
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:56,320
interactions with Brigham Young.
All right, so right away we see

886
01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:01,800
that he has an inside look at
church authority and church

887
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,560
leadership.
He knows them personally.

888
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,480
He's seen him in action because
they would come and visit the

889
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,320
First Presidency and others.
And so Hugh saw this and that

890
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,520
had a great influence on him,
which we'll read about in a

891
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:20,720
minute.
In 1927, when he was 17, he

892
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:24,600
receives his endowment in the
Salt Lake Temple in preparation

893
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:30,680
for his mission in 1927.
Consider the year he begins to

894
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:36,440
serve his mission in Germany.
Pre World War 2, Germany serves

895
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,520
served.
Yeah, served to 1929 when he

896
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:44,640
was, we think he was poisoned.
That was very, very sick and

897
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,040
ended up going home a little bit
early.

898
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,240
Do we do we know the story
behind how he got poisoned or

899
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:53,800
why he was poisoned?
Yes.

900
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,080
Some native Germans, they were
trying to give him some soup or

901
01:01:58,080 --> 01:01:59,400
something.
He was like, no, thanks.

902
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,960
And they were insistent.
No, you have to.

903
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,560
You have to.
We made this for you.

904
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,880
He did and he got violently ill
and was throwing up and he was

905
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,000
sick for quite some time.
So he thinks he may have been

906
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:13,080
poisoned.
You know, it's interesting to

907
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:17,240
note that during this time in
Germany, it's very hedonistic,

908
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,200
right?
This is when the cabarets come

909
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:23,560
on the scene.
It was, it was kind of a

910
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,280
calculated move, right?
They wanted to keep the Germans

911
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:30,000
fat and happy because they were
printing money at an exponential

912
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,560
rate to pay the war debt from
World War One.

913
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:37,400
And so Hugh going to Germany,
it's not like the Germany that

914
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:41,040
we know today, which, you know,
kind of embraces its Lutheran

915
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:45,280
roots a little bit.
This is a Germany that is very

916
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:49,360
hedonistic in its.
We'll talk about his mission.

917
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:54,960
And I imagine that Hugh must
have have, you know, for well,

918
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,280
it must have been difficult
because of of what was happening

919
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,560
in Germany in those days.
He is.

920
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:06,160
We'll talk in some detail.
His mission president, when they

921
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:12,040
got there told them, he says, I
imagine you boys will return

922
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:14,320
here in uniform in about 5
years.

923
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,720
Holy cow, called that one,
right.

924
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:20,000
And he loved his mission
president.

925
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:27,040
And his mission was so difficult
because of the hedonism, the

926
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:32,800
atheism and just it was the
harshness of the people.

927
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:35,640
And you can blame, you know,
there are a lot of things to

928
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:37,600
blame, you know, the Forsythe
treating how hard it was in

929
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,320
Germany or just hyper
nationalism or what have you.

930
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:47,040
It got so bad that he their
tracks, their pamphlets, he

931
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:51,800
threw them away and he started
preaching Hellfire damnation,

932
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,400
warning them of destruction like
the prophets of old wood, like

933
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,160
we were just reading about
Samuel the Lamanite in Gospel

934
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:03,240
doctrine today.
And then you, you try, you call

935
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:06,720
the people to repentance.
And when they fail to do that,

936
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,400
the the role of the prophet is
to warn them, right?

937
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,200
You're not repenting, you will
reap destruction.

938
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:16,480
And he preached that they would
be destroyed by fire from

939
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:18,440
heaven.
He nibbly did wow.

940
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:21,720
I was chased out of a town by a
butcher's wife with the meat

941
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:23,800
cleaver.
And we'll get the rest of that

942
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,400
story later.
So it was, it was not a good

943
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,120
mission.
And he did not speak highly of

944
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:32,400
the German people, which was a
disappointment to him because as

945
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:36,080
academic, we, we prized the
German universities.

946
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,120
Heidelberg, you know, some of
the first universities.

947
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:42,120
In 1934, after he gets back from
his mission, he graduates with

948
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,600
his bachelor's degree in history
from UCLA.

949
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,920
In 1934, he attends Graduate
School at Berkeley and meets a

950
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:56,360
guy named Paul Springer.
And Paul Springer, the reason

951
01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:00,320
he's important to me is the
things that he and Hugh learned

952
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:03,480
from each other.
Paul Springer and he, they were

953
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,240
housemates and they were
completely different.

954
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:08,520
The only reason they were put
together is because they were

955
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,960
both geniuses.
He was a straight, you know,

956
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,600
straight up good Mormon boy.
Paul Springer was a hard

957
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:20,240
charging, partier womanizer, if
I could put it that way.

958
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,000
He was a black sheep.
Gotcha.

959
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:29,600
Despite which they became best
lifelong inseparable friends.

960
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:35,920
You know, probably one of my
best friends.

961
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:38,640
I still talk to him.
It's kind of the same way.

962
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:40,800
The dude, he's way smarter than
me.

963
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,880
He's got a degree in physics,
but he's married now and settled

964
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,320
down.
But in his younger years, he was

965
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,440
hell on wheels, right?
I was always pretty straight

966
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,760
laced.
And you know, by the time I met

967
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,800
him, I was I was pretty straight
laced as well.

968
01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:02,000
It's funny how those sometimes
can be some of the best

969
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,800
friendships.
Maybe they are so different.

970
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:11,240
I remember kind of another thing
that that that makes me think of

971
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:15,040
this is you, you know, those
times when you're sick and you

972
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,480
can't sleep, so you go
downstairs and you sleep on the

973
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,080
couch so you don't wake anybody
else up.

974
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:26,440
I watched an old movie in in
black and white and it was about

975
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:29,680
a Doctor Who was very religious
and then a lawyer who wasn't

976
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:31,440
kind of a partier, that sort of
thing.

977
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:33,480
And it kind of followed him
throughout life.

978
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:36,280
And if anyone else knows the
name of this movie, please drop

979
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:39,560
it to me because I haven't seen
it since I really want to watch

980
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:41,920
it again.
But it follows them through

981
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:43,840
their life and it follows them
till they're old men.

982
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:46,440
And the lawyers are on kind of
on his deathbed and the doctor

983
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,640
comes over to visit him and he
finds him reading the Bible.

984
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:53,040
And he he goes, oh, you're going
to accept religion now while

985
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,040
you're on your deathbed?
And he goes, Nope, just looking

986
01:06:56,040 --> 01:07:04,480
for loopholes and this sometimes
those make make for the best,

987
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,440
most interesting friendships for
sure.

988
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:11,280
I it was so it.
I mean these two their favorite

989
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:13,200
thing to do is get together and
argue.

990
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,040
They loved it and they gave each
other hell.

991
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:19,520
I mean they just, they would rib
each other incessantly and

992
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:23,240
constantly rode each other
faithfully throughout the war.

993
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,640
I mean, and we'll get to the
rest of that story, but Oh my

994
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:30,080
gosh, it just makes me laugh
when I think about the both of

995
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:37,000
them.
Anyway, in 1936, God personally

996
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:42,320
intervenes in Hugh's life by
subjecting him to a near death

997
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:46,400
experience, which I believe and
others have witnessed is was a

998
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:51,680
pivotal moment in preparing him
and purifying him to be able to

999
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,360
do what he did for me and so
many others.

1000
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:58,560
Before we move on to this slide.
You don't need to go back, but I

1001
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:02,360
just, I, I got to know Hugh
doesn't spend a lot of time in

1002
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,600
what we would refer to as the
Mormon bubble, right?

1003
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:09,120
He's outside of that.
He's born in Portland, he lives

1004
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:12,360
in Los Angeles.
He he goes to Germany on his

1005
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:17,920
mission, goes to UCLA for
school, goes to Berkeley.

1006
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:22,160
I mean, what, what effect do you
think that had on Nibley as a

1007
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:24,760
scholar being outside of the
Mormon bubble?

1008
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:30,920
I think, well, I think that's a
very significant influence in

1009
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:35,880
preparing him to be in the
world, which to be this type of

1010
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:39,800
a scholar, you'd have to be in
the world without being of the

1011
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:44,319
world.
I mean, and for sure that that

1012
01:08:44,319 --> 01:08:47,640
was necessary for him to do what
he did.

1013
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:50,319
And I think it's part of why he
and Paul Springer got along so

1014
01:08:50,319 --> 01:08:55,840
well, because you could love and
befriend a guy who's completely

1015
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,359
different than him.
I mean, the thing that put it

1016
01:08:58,359 --> 01:09:00,760
together was they were both in
this Arabic class.

1017
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:03,600
They're like the only two people
in the class.

1018
01:09:04,359 --> 01:09:06,840
All right.
For sure.

1019
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:13,359
In 1938 he finishes his PhD 1939
he becomes a lecturer at

1020
01:09:13,359 --> 01:09:19,040
Claremont College there in
California. 1942 he leaves his

1021
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:22,840
lectureship and enlist in the
Army as a private.

1022
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:28,000
What inspired him to do that?
Because that seems like because

1023
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:32,399
he's a scholar, right?
I mean, he, he's already got his

1024
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:36,680
PhD, but then goes and enlists
in the Army now.

1025
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:40,600
Now, if you were in academia,
wasn't that kind of a past to a

1026
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,399
certain extent?
I don't think it was in World

1027
01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:45,120
War 2, unless you unless you're
married.

1028
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:50,479
But in his case, he was a
pacifist, hated war.

1029
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:52,800
This is such a very interesting
thing.

1030
01:09:53,319 --> 01:10:00,040
He hated war and he enlists and
participates and did his duty

1031
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:05,160
diligently.
I think part of it was because

1032
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:09,000
he knew that he was probably
going to be drafted anyway, so

1033
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:18,720
just pull the trigger, make it,
and make it his own choice.

1034
01:10:20,440 --> 01:10:22,600
Plus most Latter Day Saints
growing up at the Book of

1035
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:26,120
Mormon, you believe that United
States is the promised land.

1036
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:30,760
Right.
And so I'm sure there's a great

1037
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,880
deal of patriotism involved, I
would guess.

1038
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:38,960
So he gets in the military and
he tests very, very high and

1039
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:45,440
he's fluent in German.
And so they sent him to they,

1040
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:46,880
they were called the Ritchie
Boys.

1041
01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:49,120
They were trained in
intelligence gathering.

1042
01:10:49,480 --> 01:10:51,960
Many of them were being trained
to German speakers as

1043
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,720
interrogators.
He, Nibley, was not very good at

1044
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:58,320
it.
He, he didn't like, he didn't

1045
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:01,120
like forcing people to say
things they did want to say.

1046
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:05,520
So he ended up going, they call
it the German Order of Battle

1047
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:07,920
Intelligence.
He would gather intelligence to

1048
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:09,960
help make battle plans.
OK.

1049
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:17,400
Which that later on in the war,
and this is unbelievable true

1050
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:26,280
story, he was stationed on the
front lines at the time of the

1051
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:30,440
Battle of the Bulge, which came
as a surprise to the allied

1052
01:11:30,440 --> 01:11:36,040
forces, but not to humily he
told them it was coming and they

1053
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,400
ignored him.
Wow and.

1054
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:40,760
Then what had happened?
His commander was like, yeah,

1055
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:47,840
you were right.
In 1944, he is attached to the

1056
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:54,320
United States 101st Airborne,
the Screaming Eagles, quite

1057
01:11:54,320 --> 01:12:00,080
famous, and ends up driving one
of the first Jeeps onto Utah

1058
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:02,960
Beach on D-Day.
Wow.

1059
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:09,320
And they had to waterproof their
Jeeps because the landing craft

1060
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:12,880
would land.
I don't think it's like 100

1061
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:14,560
yards or something off the
beach.

1062
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:19,160
And the water was four to six
feet deep.

1063
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:24,720
The beach extended that far out
into the shallows so that

1064
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:27,560
waterproof their Jeeps so that
they could drive them underwater

1065
01:12:28,440 --> 01:12:31,000
onto the beach.
And so he was responsible for

1066
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:33,360
waterproofing his own Jeep.
And he had a bunch of guys

1067
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:36,720
riding on it cheering him on go
nibs go.

1068
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:40,240
And he just kept driving water
up to his neck while he was

1069
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:43,760
driving.
And he said during that time,

1070
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:47,320
what was going through his mind
was elephants in the Book of

1071
01:12:47,320 --> 01:13:00,600
Mormon.
That would have been hilarious,

1072
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:03,320
right?
Like if some guy right right

1073
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:05,280
next to him is like, Hugh, you
seemed awfully calm.

1074
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:08,000
What were you thinking about?
I don't know, elephants in the

1075
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:09,800
Book of Mormon.
What were you thinking about?

1076
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:12,240
Right.
You know, their their jackets

1077
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:14,360
had all these pockets.
And in one of his pockets, he

1078
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:16,080
kept a a copy of the Book of
Mormon.

1079
01:13:16,480 --> 01:13:19,920
Interesting.
Talk about a Mormon boy, huh?

1080
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:25,120
Yeah.
In 1944, after a successful

1081
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:31,680
D-Day, generally speaking, he
won the 101st Airborne,

1082
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:34,880
participate in the invasion of
Holland.

1083
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:37,160
And what the airborne units
would do would go in behind

1084
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:39,640
enemy lines to stir things up
and gather intelligence.

1085
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:43,960
And it's quite dangerous.
And they weren't paratroopers.

1086
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:48,000
They would go in in these
gliders, long powered.

1087
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:51,840
These gliders would be towed up
in the air by, I think, C-40

1088
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:54,640
sevens, which would average
about 55 miles an hour.

1089
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:58,200
Oh.
Geez, not exactly an elusive

1090
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:01,080
target.
Oh my gosh, it's like a death

1091
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:04,640
trap.
And the horrible thing about

1092
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:08,200
those gliders that went into
Holland, the gliders themselves

1093
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:11,920
weren't terrible.
They had like skis, like skids

1094
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:14,920
that they would land.
On Jeez.

1095
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:19,680
As they were going over the
ocean, going into Holland, a

1096
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:22,440
significant number of them fell
out of the sky as they were

1097
01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:26,360
being towed.
Hugh found out years later,

1098
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:31,680
while he was still stationed
after the war in Germany, he was

1099
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:34,120
around some British soldiers
that were drinking and laughing,

1100
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,520
recounting how when they had
assembled those gliders and they

1101
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:41,800
didn't know that he was one of
the guys in the gliders, they

1102
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:43,360
were laughing.
They were so drunk that they

1103
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:47,280
forgot to put all the pins in
when they were assembling the

1104
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:54,760
gliders.
Anyway, so that was Montgomery's

1105
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:56,360
plan.
I think it was like the dagger.

1106
01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:00,640
The dagger and it was failed
essentially because Montgomery

1107
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:06,120
wasn't that great of a general.
Sorry to any British friends.

1108
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:12,520
1945 Hugh travels through
Europe.

1109
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:16,160
Oh, I spelled it wrong.
Through we Europe at war's end

1110
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:18,400
and returns to the United States
because he was unmarried.

1111
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:21,720
He didn't have priority when the
World War was over to go home.

1112
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:28,360
But he just he got a Jeep, but
he just toured, toured Europe.

1113
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:35,720
Wow, what's I going to say?
And and they and his superiors

1114
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:38,520
really didn't stop him because
he was so valuable as an

1115
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:43,600
intelligence officer.
One of the places he went, the

1116
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:49,240
Eagle's Nest, is an infamous
mountain hideaway where Hitler

1117
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:51,880
and Ava Braun, I think it was
her name that he later married,

1118
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:54,920
you know, would hang out.
He drove up there to the Eagle's

1119
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:58,440
Nest after the war and and
nobody was there.

1120
01:15:58,440 --> 01:16:00,880
They heard somebody run off any
caretaker and had left his

1121
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:03,400
coffee or something.
And they found some beautiful

1122
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:08,760
stationery that said from the
desk of the Fuhrer, which he he

1123
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:10,080
took a stack of that home with
him.

1124
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:25,800
All right, so he gets back from
the States and those guys were

1125
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:31,880
subjected two indescribable
atrocities, right?

1126
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:34,840
And there was no such thing as
PTSD diagnosed in those days.

1127
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:36,600
You were shell shocked or just
get over it.

1128
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:41,600
And and most of them did his
therapy when he got home.

1129
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:47,240
He loved nature all he loved
hiking, taking his kids off for

1130
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:48,560
hikes.
He and Paul Springer go on

1131
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:51,320
hikes, and his favorite place to
hike was southern Utah.

1132
01:16:52,040 --> 01:17:00,880
OK. 9 Bryce Canyon, all those
places he went out and lived in

1133
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:07,840
Zion for, I think, months to
help him recover from the trauma

1134
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:11,800
of what he experienced.
He was in Dachau, I think two

1135
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:14,040
days after the after they were
liberated.

1136
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:20,160
Oh, concentration camp.
All right, So the very next

1137
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:21,440
year.
Hang Kai.

1138
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:30,920
Yeah, that shows kind of a
self-awareness, right, that he

1139
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:35,680
knows he's not quite right and
he goes out to work it out,

1140
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:46,280
right.
It's one thing to to go through

1141
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:52,080
that and receive help, right?
But sometimes you're unaware

1142
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:55,320
that you need help, right?
Or that, that there's something

1143
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:56,240
off.
Yeah.

1144
01:17:56,560 --> 01:18:03,720
This shows something about
Hughes, Hugh Nibley's mental

1145
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:08,280
prowess that he, he in a certain
way, he could detach and just

1146
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:10,600
look at himself and say, yeah,
there's something not quite

1147
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:12,040
right here that needs worked
out.

1148
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:17,960
Do we have any records from his
his time kind of hiking and in

1149
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:21,080
the desert?
Want more from the Mormon

1150
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:24,760
Renegade podcast?
Head over to the Mormon Renegade

1151
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:28,720
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1152
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:30,880
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1153
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:35,240
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1154
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:38,320
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1155
01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:42,120
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1156
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:45,920
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exclusives, as well as weekly

1157
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:49,080
live stream show with the host
Dave Sanders.

1158
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:52,640
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

1159
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:56,920
Do we have any records from his
his time kind of hiking and in

1160
01:18:56,920 --> 01:18:59,520
the desert?
Not really.

1161
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:02,720
I mean, other than he would
write letters to Paul Springer.

1162
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:05,760
Paul would join him on some of
these tracks and and he would

1163
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:12,440
admit that's why he's there.
Interesting to heal what he'd

1164
01:19:12,440 --> 01:19:16,560
witnessed.
And we'll talk more about that

1165
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:20,720
in a minute also.
But he comes back and he starts

1166
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,960
working for the church
publications under John Widso

1167
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:30,560
and and he publishes his first
apologetic work.

1168
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:33,560
No, ma'am, that's not history.
The response to fond brodies.

1169
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:37,720
No man knows my history and was
people loved it.

1170
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:41,880
I mean, it's like the first time
anybody just openly came out and

1171
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:44,880
said, yeah, this is horrible and
This is why.

1172
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:50,640
And, and the Latter Day Saints
just just lapped it up.

1173
01:19:51,440 --> 01:19:54,920
They they have needed that right
for many, many years.

1174
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:00,760
Witso is so impressed.
Witso contacts BYU president,

1175
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:03,320
says you need to hire this guy.
They interviewed him and sure

1176
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:05,560
enough, they hire him.
He becomes an assistant

1177
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:09,120
professor of history and
religion and.

1178
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:16,200
BYU is easy to make fun of and I
didn't go to BYUI could have,

1179
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:19,440
but I'm kind of glad I went the
route I did, not because I hate

1180
01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:24,280
BYU, but in in in the case of
Hugh Nibley, it was critical.

1181
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:26,240
And we'll talk about why that
is.

1182
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:31,440
That same year he meets and he
marries Phyllis Draper in the

1183
01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:36,080
Salt Lake Temple.
She, So all of these elements

1184
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:39,280
that we're talking about here
were critical in his development

1185
01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:42,480
and his success as a scholar.
And Phyllis Draper was most

1186
01:20:42,480 --> 01:20:46,160
certainly that, not only
supportive, but she actually

1187
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:47,840
enjoyed some of that scholarly
work.

1188
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:49,920
Together they had eight
children.

1189
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:55,760
Wow.
In 1955, they buy their first

1190
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:59,640
home near the Brigham Young
campus, and that's the only home

1191
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:03,080
they ever owned together.
They live in it until his death,

1192
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:05,280
2005.
Holy cow.

1193
01:21:05,280 --> 01:21:08,760
Very humble.
Yeah, there's a photo.

1194
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:11,400
There's a photograph of it.
I don't know if I put it in here

1195
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:15,760
or not.
Parked by the house is a 1976

1196
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:19,200
Datsun.
That's the car he drove for the

1197
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:23,400
rest of his life.
That's just to show you the kind

1198
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:25,760
of a guy he was.
Somebody was complaining.

1199
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:26,480
He didn't.
He didn't.

1200
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:29,880
The the bushes are all overgrown
in front of the house and the

1201
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:33,720
lawn's a mess.
That wasn't important to him.

1202
01:21:34,480 --> 01:21:36,800
Somebody complained about the
length of his grass, and the

1203
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,480
story goes he staked a goat out
in the front yard to eat the

1204
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:47,960
grass.
In 1966, he takes a sabbatical

1205
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:51,000
to continue his studies in
Egyptian at the Chicago Oriental

1206
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:53,120
Institute, and they offer him a
position.

1207
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:56,400
They're the second ones to have
offered him one, and he turned

1208
01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:59,480
them down.
They offered him more money.

1209
01:21:59,480 --> 01:22:04,720
It was certainly more prestige,
but he realized he had a work to

1210
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:14,080
do and that he was doing. 1975
He retires from BYU, continues

1211
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:19,480
to teach a class, and keeps an
office there well into the 80s.

1212
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:23,560
Nineteen 83.
Foundation for Ancient Research

1213
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:28,560
and Mormon Studies is organized
by Jack Welch primarily to

1214
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:32,240
publish Hughes Collected Works.
1984.

1215
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:35,960
You had quadruple bypass surgery
performed by President Russell M

1216
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:42,960
Nelson of the church.
I'm glad it worked.

1217
01:22:43,480 --> 01:22:48,320
Yeah.
In 1985, First Presidency in the

1218
01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:52,080
12 ask you to report on the
history of the temple.

1219
01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:56,800
In 1986 he reads Temple to the
First Presidency of the 12th at

1220
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:59,160
a three hour meeting in the Salt
Lake Temple and delivers a

1221
01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:01,640
longer written report, Endowment
History.

1222
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:05,920
And then 2005 he dies between 86
and 2005.

1223
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:08,480
I think he was primary.
I mean, he was slowing down to

1224
01:23:08,480 --> 01:23:14,920
be sure, but he was primarily
occupied with editing his 19

1225
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:19,200
volumes of his collective works.
Do we have any record of of what

1226
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:25,120
was in the the the the temple
document there to the First

1227
01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:28,760
Presidency in the Quorum of the
12 and there's nothing about the

1228
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,120
meeting that's published.
I mean, I don't imagine such

1229
01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:33,680
thing would be.
I imagined a lot of what was

1230
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:36,200
presented we'll find in temple
and Cosmos.

1231
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:38,880
OK.
All right.

1232
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:43,040
But I'm, I'm like you.
I want to know.

1233
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:45,960
I want to know what's in there.
I promise I won't tell no one

1234
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:47,320
else.
I'll keep that under my hat.

1235
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:49,320
I swear.
I'm good for it.

1236
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:54,040
So here's his great grandfather,
Alexander Niebauer.

1237
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:59,000
OK.
First Dennis Jewish in the first

1238
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:07,800
Jewish convert to the church.
This is a photograph of his

1239
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:10,400
grandfather in the middle,
Charles W Nibley, flanked by

1240
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:14,240
Joseph F Smith on the left and
William Lunt on the right, who's

1241
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:16,920
assistant church historian.
OK.

1242
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:21,920
It's a lot of history.
It's standing right there.

1243
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:26,800
It's span in a lot of history
right now.

1244
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:31,360
The significance of these
relationships in how Hugh Nibley

1245
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:33,400
was to function in his life is
as follows.

1246
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:39,360
This comes from his biography
written by his son-in-law, Boyd

1247
01:24:39,440 --> 01:24:42,360
Peterson.
Hugh's testimony of contemporary

1248
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:45,680
church leaders has been a
result, but I would say a direct

1249
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:49,120
result, of his personal
associations with them from an

1250
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:53,120
early age, beginning with his
grandfather, Charles W Nibley,

1251
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:56,280
1st, the Presiding Bishop, and
later a counselor in the First

1252
01:24:56,280 --> 01:25:00,160
Presidency to Hebrew J Grant.
Charles Nibley frequently

1253
01:25:00,160 --> 01:25:04,160
visited Hugh's family both in
Oregon and California, usually

1254
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:06,080
accompanied by other church
leaders.

1255
01:25:06,520 --> 01:25:09,560
During those visits, Hugh
witnessed first hand their

1256
01:25:09,560 --> 01:25:12,640
imperfections.
It's not what you would expect.

1257
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:15,000
Right.
He witnessed how they would

1258
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:21,720
sometimes cheat at golf, gasp,
how their political beliefs

1259
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:26,360
occasionally overruled their
religious duties and how they

1260
01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:29,120
sometimes disagreed with one
another, gasp.

1261
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:31,840
You could.
Now here's and here's the

1262
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:35,200
critical point for me.
You could not be disillusioned

1263
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:39,000
by the action of church leaders
because he was never illusioned

1264
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:42,960
to begin with.
From a young age, he saw them as

1265
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:46,600
real people, not infallible
popes, right?

1266
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:49,280
Going on, he knew they were
human.

1267
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:53,000
He also heard his grandfather
tell inspiring stories about his

1268
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:56,400
encounters with Brigham Yell.
Oh boy, he's a great fan of

1269
01:25:56,400 --> 01:25:58,040
Brigham Yell, as we'll see
later.

1270
01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:03,400
He saw a compassionate Joseph F
Smith personally nurtured the

1271
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:06,840
needy and grief stricken during
his visits to Oregon.

1272
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:08,720
That speaks volumes of a person,
right?

1273
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:12,600
Right.
And he came to respect the

1274
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:14,960
variety of talents, interests
and pursuits of church leaders.

1275
01:26:15,480 --> 01:26:18,240
As a BYU faculty member, Hugh
accompanied at least three

1276
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:20,760
general authorities to state
conferences where they

1277
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:23,040
encouraged parents to send their
children to BYU.

1278
01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:26,720
By the time I was going to
College in the 80s, they had

1279
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:29,680
reversed that because BYU was
stuffed to the gills.

1280
01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:33,080
Because you need you need to
stay home and attend your local

1281
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:38,680
colleges.
His first hand experience with

1282
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:40,760
Spencer Kimball, then an
apostle, showed him the

1283
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:43,960
conscientiousness and a
pretentious attitude of men whom

1284
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:45,480
Hugh came to see as servants of
the Lord.

1285
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:49,360
His experience with them,
Spencer Kimball, affected him

1286
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:51,800
very deeply.
They were doing this tour.

1287
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:54,520
They were down in Arizona.
They just got to Spencer

1288
01:26:54,520 --> 01:27:01,360
Kimball's home state, Snowflake,
AZ, and they were on their way

1289
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:04,520
home and the train was going to
leave in a few minutes.

1290
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:08,400
So he ran off to a bookstore,
bought an armful of books, ran

1291
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:10,040
across the field and got on the
train.

1292
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:13,360
And as they took off, Spencer
Kimball's asked him about the

1293
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:14,720
books.
He got there talking about it

1294
01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:18,320
and without even thinking about
it, and this is Hugh describing

1295
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:22,320
the event.
Spencer Kimball grabbed this,

1296
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:26,760
this like this silk white
kerchief out of his coat pocket

1297
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:31,040
and bent over, sitting across
and really and bent over and

1298
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:34,040
started wiping the dust off of
Hugh's shoes.

1299
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:37,680
They didn't, you know, there
were no comments or anything

1300
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:42,200
like that and that, you know,
for whatever reason, deeply

1301
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:47,200
affected unively that this
apostle would, would do that for

1302
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:51,720
him, you know, anyway.
So that impressed him greatly.

1303
01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:57,520
And I think that's why he he and
I think he had a great empathy

1304
01:27:57,520 --> 01:27:59,440
for church leaders, having seen
it from the inside.

1305
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:02,840
Right.
This was after he had published

1306
01:28:02,840 --> 01:28:06,200
his, you know, you would think,
you know, he published probably

1307
01:28:06,440 --> 01:28:10,520
the deepest doctrine, the
Melchizedek manual in the

1308
01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:13,440
history of the Church.
And you would think he'd be the

1309
01:28:13,440 --> 01:28:17,560
one trying to champion all that.
No, he said he had great empathy

1310
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:20,920
for the leaders of the church
who are duty bound to cheat to

1311
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:25,720
teach the fundamental principles
of the gospel over and over

1312
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:28,920
again to as many people as they
could, even though they might

1313
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:33,920
want to do something else.
So here's here's the Magnan, the

1314
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:35,920
the magnanimous nature of
Unibli.

1315
01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:41,480
Even though he was had his head
in the clouds, he recognized the

1316
01:28:41,480 --> 01:28:45,320
absolute necessity of teaching
all these new converts the

1317
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:47,120
fundamental principles.
You know, milk before the

1318
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:50,160
meeting.
So anyway, I thought that I

1319
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:51,600
didn't know that about him
initially.

1320
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:57,040
Very interesting contrast.
He was intellect.

1321
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:02,200
In 1920, when he was in school
in Oregon, the principal at his

1322
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:05,200
elementary school gave all of
his students an IQ test.

1323
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:10,920
He was 10.
After seeing Hugh Nibley's high

1324
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:14,640
scores, the principal decided to
privately tutor Nibley.

1325
01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:17,680
Meaning he took Hugh Nibley out
of out of class, took him out of

1326
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:20,520
school and taught him at home
and taught him at home.

1327
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:25,720
He couldn't get away with that
today.

1328
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:33,240
No, no.
And as an older professor and

1329
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:36,440
scholar, this is how he was
perceived by his colleagues.

1330
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:39,640
He was presenting a paper on
Enoch at a conference.

1331
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:42,320
He read his paper on Enoch at a
morning session of the

1332
01:29:42,320 --> 01:29:43,920
conference.
But it was during the questions

1333
01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:47,240
and answers where he's just
shooting from the hip, answering

1334
01:29:47,240 --> 01:29:51,120
people's questions, that little
by little, the amazing knowledge

1335
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:55,520
Hugh had had was revealed it to
every attendee because he'd

1336
01:29:55,520 --> 01:29:57,400
start quoting things in
different languages and stuff

1337
01:29:57,400 --> 01:30:01,240
like that from memory.
At one point, a scholar by the

1338
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:03,520
name of George McRae, a
professor of religion at

1339
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:09,240
Harvard, commented amazed quote.
It is simply obscene that a

1340
01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:11,560
person knows this much.
Wow.

1341
01:30:13,480 --> 01:30:15,440
Wow, who is George Mccrae
exactly?

1342
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:19,440
Professor of religion at Harvard
Divinity School, IE someone said

1343
01:30:19,440 --> 01:30:22,120
I I read once when they said he
was the Dean, but.

1344
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:26,680
Holy cow.
That's significant, and he's not

1345
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:28,080
the only one to have noted that,
of course.

1346
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:33,240
That's a picture of U Nibley at
16, just a year before his

1347
01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:36,760
mission.
So we talked a little bit about

1348
01:30:36,760 --> 01:30:38,560
his mission and how that
influenced his life.

1349
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:41,240
Right.
When he arrived in Germany,

1350
01:30:41,240 --> 01:30:43,320
things weren't going so merry.
Our mission president was a

1351
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:47,160
marvellous man and in the first
meeting we missionaries had with

1352
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:51,720
him, he said, you know, I won't
be surprised to see all you boys

1353
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:53,720
in uniform in another five
years.

1354
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:57,240
Holy.
Cow, a mission president, nailed

1355
01:30:57,240 --> 01:31:00,520
that.
And he goes on.

1356
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:03,120
He sets all along the Rhine, the
river, in those villages.

1357
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:04,280
It was hard.
It was grim.

1358
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:08,320
Toward the end of my mission I
threw away the tracks and

1359
01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:11,600
everything else and just started
crying repentance, telling them

1360
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:16,920
they would be destroyed by fire.
During a conference in

1361
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:20,680
Karlsruhe, I went and tracted
right by a big church on the

1362
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:22,480
Main Street.
There was a butcher shop there

1363
01:31:24,480 --> 01:31:27,520
and I went to it and started
giving my voice of warning that

1364
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:29,960
the people would be destroyed by
fire from heaven.

1365
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:31,840
Can you imagine doing that on
your mission?

1366
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:34,200
No.
Your mission president would

1367
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,400
your mission president would
say, hey, buddy, come here, you

1368
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:37,640
need to stay in the office for a
while.

1369
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:43,680
And a gigantic question woman
had a fit.

1370
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:47,360
She ran to the back of the shop
and came out waving a huge meat

1371
01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:50,880
cleaver and said, don't you tell
me we'll be destroyed by fire

1372
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:52,720
from heaven.
So I moved on.

1373
01:31:53,400 --> 01:31:57,680
Here's the rest of the story.
Late 1 moonlit night.

1374
01:31:57,680 --> 01:31:59,120
This is after the German
surrendered.

1375
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:02,880
He was driving around Germany.
I was driving his colleague Van

1376
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:07,000
Patten down the Main Street and
Carlzura, past the big church in

1377
01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:12,080
the bright moonlight.
The city was all in ruins and it

1378
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:15,000
had all just been wiped out by
fire bombs from the English

1379
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:17,200
plains.
They just smashed the whole

1380
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:19,040
city.
Suddenly I jammed on the brakes

1381
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:22,120
and growled to a halt, Van
Patten said.

1382
01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:24,720
What's wrong?
There was the framework.

1383
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:28,600
There was the framework of the
door to the butcher shop where I

1384
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:35,360
had preached back in 1929, so 15
years later or so, it was the

1385
01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:38,560
butcher shop where the woman
came out raving and waving the

1386
01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:40,800
cleaver and yelling.
Don't you tell us, we'll be

1387
01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:45,440
destroyed by fire from heaven.
All you could see was the

1388
01:32:45,440 --> 01:32:47,640
framework of the door there.
The old butcher shop was in

1389
01:32:47,640 --> 01:32:50,880
complete ruin.
It had been burnt out totally.

1390
01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:53,600
Fire from heaven had destroyed
it.

1391
01:32:55,080 --> 01:33:00,040
We went to Fort Syme, which is
nearby, and the whole town had

1392
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:03,600
been fire bombed.
There was nothing left, a town

1393
01:33:03,600 --> 01:33:07,040
of 80,000 people.
And the mayor there told me that

1394
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:11,600
that in the last fire raid,
30,000 people were burned to

1395
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:14,520
death.
So they got fired from heaven,

1396
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:16,640
all right.
Wow.

1397
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:22,360
You know what's interesting?
Looking at the difference of the

1398
01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:28,840
pictures between the two, Yes.
I mean, they look like different

1399
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:32,040
people.
Yeah.

1400
01:33:32,440 --> 01:33:34,480
I mean, the second picture tells
the story.

1401
01:33:34,480 --> 01:33:37,040
If you look at the eyes, that's
a dude who's seen some stuff.

1402
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:39,720
Yeah.
Yeah.

1403
01:33:39,720 --> 01:33:42,000
There's a photograph of him and
his young wife in the first

1404
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:45,160
child, and he looks even older.
It aged him tremendously.

1405
01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:52,000
So there's he.
There he is at grad school.

1406
01:33:52,480 --> 01:33:55,120
And that photograph is of Paul
Springer on the left and

1407
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:56,680
Hunibley on the right with the
hat on.

1408
01:33:57,040 --> 01:33:59,560
OK.
There they are, probably in Zion

1409
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:06,320
or something.
Right. 1947 This is Paul

1410
01:34:06,320 --> 01:34:10,800
Springer describing Hugh Nibley.
He, of course, was a walking

1411
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:14,120
jigsaw puzzle.
He was then a grad student, and

1412
01:34:14,120 --> 01:34:15,960
I met him because he was the
only other student in the

1413
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:18,920
university dumb enough to take
classical Arabic.

1414
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:24,240
We became very close friends and
then prior to World War 2, we

1415
01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:27,040
made a number of trips to the
canyons in Utah, Capitol Reef,

1416
01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:29,520
the Arches, and of course Zion
and Bryce.

1417
01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:34,040
And on those long walks we had
many, many interesting

1418
01:34:34,040 --> 01:34:37,400
discussions.
We usually disagreed, which is

1419
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:39,080
of course the thing that made it
interesting.

1420
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:45,360
Paul later recalled how one
time, after considering the way

1421
01:34:45,360 --> 01:34:50,160
Mormons actively proselyte, he
asked Hugh why he hadn't tried

1422
01:34:50,160 --> 01:34:52,320
to convert him.
He replied with a wink.

1423
01:34:52,320 --> 01:34:59,400
Well, the church has some rights
in this, too, Paul added.

1424
01:34:59,400 --> 01:35:01,000
I couldn't help but agree with
him.

1425
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:09,560
I mean, Paul, and they would
write letters back and forth.

1426
01:35:09,560 --> 01:35:12,200
And some of the letters are
published in this war memoir

1427
01:35:12,200 --> 01:35:15,080
that was published about unably
one of the letters he'd write.

1428
01:35:15,080 --> 01:35:18,480
Paul Springer got married and
please give a platonic kiss to

1429
01:35:18,480 --> 01:35:23,960
your poor deluded wife.
Something like that.

1430
01:35:25,160 --> 01:35:29,040
Oh, they're just merciless.
You know, those are good

1431
01:35:29,040 --> 01:35:32,120
friends.
Here's the kicker.

1432
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:35,320
After all of that later in life,
and I think he was practicing

1433
01:35:35,320 --> 01:35:38,880
law like San Francisco, Paul
Springer eventually investigated

1434
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:42,320
the church, was baptized, and
then guess what?

1435
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:45,600
And then fell away after being
offended by some poor Bishop.

1436
01:35:47,480 --> 01:35:50,600
Hugh Nibbly responded bracingly
to the disillusioned Springer.

1437
01:35:50,600 --> 01:35:53,560
And he wrote.
Didn't you know that Mormons are

1438
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:58,400
as dumb as other people?
They are not stupider.

1439
01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:04,600
Only because that is impossible.
This is the Lord's work, Buster,

1440
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:08,360
and if it were not, I would give
it three years to survive at the

1441
01:36:08,360 --> 01:36:14,440
outside.
Hey, that's classic Hugh Nibbly,

1442
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:18,000
right?
Because I, and I think it's

1443
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:22,840
because as I asked the question
before, he's raised outside the

1444
01:36:22,840 --> 01:36:27,280
Mormon bubble, right?
So he could, he could go between

1445
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:31,320
the world's right, because
Mormonism is almost a, a

1446
01:36:31,400 --> 01:36:34,000
counterculture in a lot of
right.

1447
01:36:34,760 --> 01:36:39,360
And he could go from UCLA and
Berkeley into that bubble.

1448
01:36:39,680 --> 01:36:43,360
But, yeah, he, he, he had,
because he spent so much time

1449
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:46,120
out of the bubble, I think he
knew, you know what?

1450
01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:49,880
They're just people too, and
they're going to do stupid

1451
01:36:49,880 --> 01:36:51,840
people things.
And that's just part of it.

1452
01:36:52,280 --> 01:36:58,520
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, and I've often said I, I want

1453
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:01,680
to expect more of Latter Day
Saints.

1454
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:02,880
Sure.
Right.

1455
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:07,480
And and in the conglomerate, I
think there's evidence and

1456
01:37:07,480 --> 01:37:11,000
statistics to show not not that
we're better people, but there

1457
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:14,880
are measurable benefits to obey
the commandments.

1458
01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:17,480
Right.
And living in a good life, you

1459
01:37:17,480 --> 01:37:20,720
know, in any case, look, it, it
was something that worked for

1460
01:37:20,720 --> 01:37:23,840
me, right?
I came with no moral scaffolding

1461
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:28,080
whatsoever, right?
And I shudder at times to think

1462
01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:32,160
about what I would be today
about that moral scaffolding.

1463
01:37:32,160 --> 01:37:37,000
I mean, honestly, honestly.
Like, I know, I know.

1464
01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:40,080
That's scary.
Yeah.

1465
01:37:40,280 --> 01:37:43,920
I'm.
Yeah, same, but at that lesson

1466
01:37:43,920 --> 01:37:47,440
and I've.
I've used this uniblic quotation

1467
01:37:47,440 --> 01:37:51,720
and discussions with so many
people because let's be honest,

1468
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:56,120
we all get disillusioned, yes,
sooner or later with some stupid

1469
01:37:56,120 --> 01:37:57,160
Mormon.
Yep.

1470
01:37:57,160 --> 01:38:01,600
Or maybe we're the stupid Mormon
disillusioned somebody else,

1471
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:05,280
right.
We have to have grace.

1472
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:07,280
Yeah.
We have to be able.

1473
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:09,640
If we're practicing Latter Day
Saints, we have to be able to

1474
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:15,560
forgive.
Yeah, I mean, because we're, and

1475
01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:19,040
judging a religion by their
stupidest members is never fair.

1476
01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:22,320
No, no.
And and, and here's the thing,

1477
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:24,160
right.
Joseph even alluded to this

1478
01:38:24,160 --> 01:38:27,040
where he, where he talked about,
you know, if you don't accuse

1479
01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:29,920
me, I won't accuse you.
And we'll go in Celestial

1480
01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:31,320
Kingdom together.
Yeah.

1481
01:38:31,360 --> 01:38:32,600
Yeah.
Very good.

1482
01:38:33,080 --> 01:38:36,040
I, I think even even Joseph
recognized this, that.

1483
01:38:36,280 --> 01:38:39,960
Oh, for sure, Joseph, of all
people.

1484
01:38:41,680 --> 01:38:43,520
Can you imagine how the
heartbreak of that?

1485
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:49,040
I I also think that that Nibley,
because you alluded to what an

1486
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:52,320
impression it left on him when
when Spencer Kimball bent down

1487
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:54,040
to clean his shoes.
Yeah.

1488
01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:57,160
I think one of the things that
makes Nibley so interesting

1489
01:38:58,200 --> 01:39:02,320
isn't just the scholarly work,
but the application of that

1490
01:39:02,320 --> 01:39:06,200
scholarly work, Right.
Because oftentimes, Oh, yeah,

1491
01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:11,800
Hugh Nibley seems to be able to.
He he seems to almost people

1492
01:39:11,800 --> 01:39:14,680
watch in a way, right.
Oh, my goodness.

1493
01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:18,280
And oh, yeah.
And so these sorts of things, I

1494
01:39:18,280 --> 01:39:22,160
think leave an impression on you
because he is an astute observer

1495
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:25,040
of humanity in the human
condition.

1496
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:27,920
That's what he called himself.
Really.

1497
01:39:27,920 --> 01:39:29,600
You know what What how would you
describe yourself?

1498
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:33,960
He says I am an observer, OK.
And the whole all throughout

1499
01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:37,440
World War 2, he'd ask himself,
what am I doing here?

1500
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:41,520
I'm here to observe.
And that's what he, that's what

1501
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:43,600
he did throughout his life.
Yeah, he was.

1502
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:48,600
And we'll see.
His teachings are so, so

1503
01:39:48,600 --> 01:39:53,240
wide-ranging, so direct and so
approachable and so profound all

1504
01:39:53,240 --> 01:39:54,960
at the same time.
That's going to be a lot of fun,

1505
01:39:55,400 --> 01:39:56,920
you know?
And the difference between Hugh

1506
01:39:56,920 --> 01:40:00,520
Nibley and a guy like myself, is
that OK?

1507
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:04,680
I used to work in Twin Falls, ID
for a while and my office was

1508
01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:08,160
literally around the corner from
this Costco.

1509
01:40:08,720 --> 01:40:11,200
So I'd take the Costco card and
go down there and have lunch.

1510
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:15,880
I mean, $1.50 for a hot dog that
right, you can't beat it.

1511
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:19,720
And I would just people watch
now he would look for the, you

1512
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:21,960
know, for the the more in depth
things.

1513
01:40:22,400 --> 01:40:25,440
I was the kind of people
watchers like why do you need an

1514
01:40:25,440 --> 01:40:31,400
entire tub of Bengay?
Are you really, are you really

1515
01:40:31,400 --> 01:40:34,960
that beat up that you need that?
That's the difference between a

1516
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:36,480
guy like me and Someone Like
You.

1517
01:40:36,480 --> 01:40:44,520
Nibble.
So all right, I can't make too

1518
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:50,080
much of this event.
The this text, the question and

1519
01:40:50,080 --> 01:40:53,560
answer comes from a video that
was made about him in 19, I

1520
01:40:53,560 --> 01:40:59,040
think it debuted in 1986 called
Faith of an Observer, which was

1521
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:04,480
filmed or produced by his son.
The question was asked of him,

1522
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:09,120
did you always?
And so he's 7576 years old at

1523
01:41:09,120 --> 01:41:10,960
this point.
Did you always have the

1524
01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:13,040
testimony of the gospel you?
Nibley said.

1525
01:41:13,520 --> 01:41:18,160
Except for one short period when
the bottom of the world fell out

1526
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:21,920
that was desperate.
He's talking about the Great

1527
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:26,880
Depression, which affected his
family very, very badly.

1528
01:41:27,440 --> 01:41:30,360
It even Charles W Nibley, once
the wealthiest man, ended up

1529
01:41:30,360 --> 01:41:34,520
having to sell off his assets to
pay his debts to remain solvent.

1530
01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:40,800
His father wasn't so lucky.
His father was a real estate.

1531
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:44,680
What do they call him?
A high stakes real estate guy in

1532
01:41:44,680 --> 01:41:47,800
Los Angeles?
Yeah, I think he's speculative

1533
01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:49,480
Realty.
Yeah.

1534
01:41:50,200 --> 01:41:53,000
And was doing so well before the
Great Depression.

1535
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:56,480
They were living in a mansion,
but before you know it, they had

1536
01:41:56,480 --> 01:41:58,840
to sell the mansion to pay
debts.

1537
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:03,800
And he spent the rest of his
life doing high risk speculative

1538
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:07,760
deals trying to make get rich
again and it end up costing them

1539
01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:10,080
their marriage.
They never divorced but they

1540
01:42:10,080 --> 01:42:18,000
separated and he is mom and dad
and they died like within months

1541
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:21,080
of each other.
She in California and he in

1542
01:42:21,200 --> 01:42:22,880
Oregon.
Gotcha.

1543
01:42:24,880 --> 01:42:29,600
Anyway, and and he suffered from
depression at that time.

1544
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:32,800
Question says well, when was
that?

1545
01:42:32,920 --> 01:42:36,040
He nibbly said it quickly.
It came back with a bang.

1546
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:39,320
I was terribly bothered about
this afterlife business.

1547
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:42,200
So to see his mind where I
understand that, why would I

1548
01:42:42,200 --> 01:42:46,000
believe in an afterlife if I had
nothing to hang down, No

1549
01:42:46,000 --> 01:42:47,720
evidence, no facts, right?
Right.

1550
01:42:48,720 --> 01:42:50,560
He said I had no evidence for
that whatever.

1551
01:42:50,560 --> 01:42:52,920
And I remember I went up to
Mount Wilson at the time.

1552
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:57,160
I walked around in the snow and
brooded about it and I came

1553
01:42:57,160 --> 01:42:59,400
back.
We had a meeting at the Old

1554
01:42:59,400 --> 01:43:03,400
Hollywood ward.
Matthew Cowley's father was the

1555
01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:06,520
speaker that night that
Matthias, Why did he say that?

1556
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:09,520
Why didn't he just say Matthias
Cowley?

1557
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:14,360
Matthew Cowley was more famous.
He'd done the Pacific Island

1558
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:17,880
mission and said a lot of
miraculous things happen and he

1559
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:21,360
was wrote books and everybody
loved him, but they'd forgotten

1560
01:43:21,360 --> 01:43:25,200
all about Matthias.
And of course, Matthias Cowley

1561
01:43:25,400 --> 01:43:27,920
was one of the apostles that
fell out of favor during the

1562
01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:32,120
Second Manifesto era and later
was reinstated.

1563
01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:35,680
Full blessings, but never
reinstated in the corners of the

1564
01:43:35,680 --> 01:43:40,320
12th.
And I, well, in the town I grew

1565
01:43:40,320 --> 01:43:43,520
up in, Cali, Wyoming, was named
after Matthias Cali.

1566
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:45,000
Hurray.
Yep.

1567
01:43:45,120 --> 01:43:47,600
So I I have an affinity for him,
I guess.

1568
01:43:48,360 --> 01:43:53,640
Anyway, so this was after
Matthias Cali's reinstatement.

1569
01:43:54,720 --> 01:44:01,040
Matthias Cali is still speaking
places, so I he says.

1570
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:04,800
I went up to meet Brother Cowley
as soon as he took my hand, he

1571
01:44:04,800 --> 01:44:06,200
says.
So they'd never met before.

1572
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:10,000
Matthias Cowley says to Hugh as
he shakes his hand.

1573
01:44:10,400 --> 01:44:13,120
Come with me, I want to give you
a blessing.

1574
01:44:14,280 --> 01:44:17,320
The blessing was the thing that
had been puzzling my mind.

1575
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:19,640
The Lord would give me an answer
immediately.

1576
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:26,000
What an extraordinary thing.
Sure, that was just a

1577
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:28,800
coincidence.
Just a coincidence, just a

1578
01:44:28,800 --> 01:44:31,760
question.
Within that very week I had an

1579
01:44:31,760 --> 01:44:36,000
appendicitis attack.
So this is 1936.

1580
01:44:37,600 --> 01:44:40,440
We went to the old 7th day
Adventist hospital out in Loma

1581
01:44:40,440 --> 01:44:42,640
Linda and I had the appendix
taken out.

1582
01:44:43,280 --> 01:44:44,800
His wife describes it as
follows.

1583
01:44:45,520 --> 01:44:48,720
As I understand he swallowed his
tongue and actually was at one

1584
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:51,680
time technically dead.
And of course, they realized

1585
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:55,520
what had happened and worked
frantically to and brought him

1586
01:44:55,520 --> 01:44:58,640
back.
But during that period, he had

1587
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:01,680
one of those life doctor death
experiences very much like the

1588
01:45:01,680 --> 01:45:04,360
ones that Doctor Moody famously
describes.

1589
01:45:06,600 --> 01:45:09,280
And he was going to describe his
experience like this.

1590
01:45:11,120 --> 01:45:15,000
There are things about it as you
listen that are similar to other

1591
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:21,280
experiences and markedly
different than otherwise, he

1592
01:45:21,280 --> 01:45:22,600
says.
Then all of a sudden down this

1593
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:24,680
thing like YouTube, you know,
you get sucked down this thing

1594
01:45:24,680 --> 01:45:27,200
and you come out.
Oh boy, I know everything and

1595
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:30,000
everything is there.
And this is what I wanted to

1596
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:32,360
know.
Exclamation point that there is

1597
01:45:32,360 --> 01:45:35,480
an afterlife.
But he learned more than that.

1598
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:37,320
Three cheers and all this sort
of thing.

1599
01:45:38,240 --> 01:45:41,640
I started solving problems and
everything else.

1600
01:45:42,360 --> 01:45:45,400
And then they found the
resuscitator and the doctor says

1601
01:45:45,400 --> 01:45:47,480
I talked to him all during the
operation.

1602
01:45:48,160 --> 01:45:51,400
I said just because I can't move
now, it looks as if I wasn't

1603
01:45:51,400 --> 01:45:53,960
feeling this, but it hurts so
much worse than I can describe.

1604
01:45:53,960 --> 01:45:57,520
It's real, all right.
I talked with him the whole time

1605
01:45:57,520 --> 01:46:02,360
during the thing, and Doctor
Whalen talked about that.

1606
01:46:02,640 --> 01:46:04,680
Had never seen anybody do
anything like that.

1607
01:46:05,160 --> 01:46:09,080
But all I wanted to know was
whether there was anything on

1608
01:46:09,080 --> 01:46:12,360
the other side.
And when I came out there I

1609
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:14,360
didn't meet anything or anybody
else.

1610
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:18,240
But I looked around and not only
was in all possession of my

1611
01:46:18,240 --> 01:46:20,280
faculties, but they were
tremendous.

1612
01:46:21,160 --> 01:46:22,960
I was light as a feather and
ready to go.

1613
01:46:22,960 --> 01:46:25,800
You see, above all, I was
interested in problems.

1614
01:46:26,440 --> 01:46:28,880
I'd missed out on a lot of math
and stuff like that.

1615
01:46:29,480 --> 01:46:31,560
How would I be able to go well
in 5 minutes?

1616
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:34,840
I can make up for that.
Remember, as Joseph Smith said,

1617
01:46:34,840 --> 01:46:37,000
if you could look for 5 minutes
in the under heavens, you see,

1618
01:46:37,640 --> 01:46:40,120
forget all the rest you ever
bothered about.

1619
01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:45,800
So he #1 he learned that life,
that the afterlife is genuine.

1620
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:50,720
The second thing he learns, he
figured out, is it in the world

1621
01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:55,200
of spirits, you learn as fast as
as faster than is humanly

1622
01:46:55,200 --> 01:46:58,200
possible, right?
You, you learn as fast as you

1623
01:46:58,200 --> 01:46:58,840
can.
Question.

1624
01:46:59,720 --> 01:47:02,120
Right.
So here's his conclusions.

1625
01:47:03,400 --> 01:47:06,640
By the way, the video Faith of
an Observer is you just go on to

1626
01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:09,080
YouTube and watch it.
Very entertaining.

1627
01:47:09,840 --> 01:47:12,640
So he gives me.
So that gives me a great relief.

1628
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:16,160
That's why I don't take this
very seriously down here.

1629
01:47:16,920 --> 01:47:20,240
Immortality.
We're just sort of dabbling

1630
01:47:20,240 --> 01:47:25,480
around, playing around, being
tested for our moral qualities

1631
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:29,640
and above all, the two things
that we can be good at and no

1632
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:33,720
two other things can we do.
We can forgive and we can

1633
01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:36,320
repent.
Interesting.

1634
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:41,440
It's the gospel of repentance.
We're told that the angels envy

1635
01:47:41,560 --> 01:47:46,640
men their ability both to
forgive and to repent, because

1636
01:47:46,640 --> 01:47:50,040
they can't do either, you see.
Huh.

1637
01:47:51,160 --> 01:47:56,080
Wow, why can't angels forgive or
repent?

1638
01:47:57,160 --> 01:47:59,720
There's nothing to forgive,
right?

1639
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:04,560
They they dwell in a sinless
environment and yet they want

1640
01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:07,600
to.
Why would they want to?

1641
01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:11,840
Because that's that's exercising
charity, the love of Christ.

1642
01:48:12,440 --> 01:48:16,200
If they're Christ like beings,
they want to help people.

1643
01:48:16,680 --> 01:48:20,360
Right.
Repent means to change.

1644
01:48:20,360 --> 01:48:24,920
It's a godly change.
Now their angels are resurrected

1645
01:48:24,920 --> 01:48:27,760
and they're finished changing.
But why would they look back on

1646
01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:30,960
that and think, man, that was
awesome, Why would they envy

1647
01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:33,680
that?
As I pondered these questions,

1648
01:48:34,040 --> 01:48:42,560
this experience here helped me
better appreciate and hopefully

1649
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:45,760
try to take advantage of my
mortal existence.

1650
01:48:46,560 --> 01:48:48,920
We tend to, and I still do.
I mean, I can't wait for the

1651
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:52,080
Millennium and joining the
heavenly choirs and all that

1652
01:48:52,080 --> 01:48:56,920
sort of incredible stuff, but
the truth is it the time for us

1653
01:48:56,920 --> 01:49:01,800
to be heroes is now.
Wow.

1654
01:49:03,440 --> 01:49:08,880
That it and it flipped my whole
perception of mortality versus

1655
01:49:09,200 --> 01:49:12,880
eternity.
Anyway, I thought that was

1656
01:49:12,880 --> 01:49:14,080
amazing.
And then he goes on.

1657
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:21,040
But nobody's very clever,
nobody's very brave, nobody's

1658
01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:26,560
very strong, nobody's very wise.
We're all pretty stupid, you

1659
01:49:26,560 --> 01:49:29,080
see.
Oh, he would laugh, you know,

1660
01:49:29,080 --> 01:49:33,960
just confessing the stupidity of
humankind, confessing his own

1661
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:37,240
stupidity.
Do you see how incredible this

1662
01:49:37,680 --> 01:49:41,440
event was for him, humbled him
to the point where he was able

1663
01:49:41,440 --> 01:49:46,440
to actually become something
more exactly the same thing God

1664
01:49:46,440 --> 01:49:50,680
did to Moses directly.
You know, it's, it's, it's

1665
01:49:50,680 --> 01:49:53,400
fascinating because he says it's
hard to take anything serious

1666
01:49:53,400 --> 01:49:56,520
down here.
But then he goes on to produce

1667
01:49:57,240 --> 01:50:03,560
19 volumes of, of work, right.
I mean, I, I think there's

1668
01:50:03,560 --> 01:50:07,000
something to be gleaned there
from from perspective.

1669
01:50:08,480 --> 01:50:10,800
Oh, exactly.
Well, those 19 volumes, none of

1670
01:50:10,800 --> 01:50:17,240
those, he wasn't writing any of
them for fame or for fortune.

1671
01:50:17,280 --> 01:50:19,520
I mean, there were some early
ones that he would public get

1672
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:23,000
published because of academia
and he didn't even want those to

1673
01:50:23,000 --> 01:50:25,160
be put in his volume.
So we'll talk about those next

1674
01:50:25,160 --> 01:50:28,080
time because I mean, because
they weren't significant.

1675
01:50:28,360 --> 01:50:31,320
His really significant stuff
about the plan of salvation,

1676
01:50:31,320 --> 01:50:33,920
about God, about the what he
called the terrible questions,

1677
01:50:35,360 --> 01:50:38,720
those couldn't even be accepted
by most journals, right?

1678
01:50:39,240 --> 01:50:41,320
Because they were overtly
religious.

1679
01:50:42,320 --> 01:50:46,320
Had he not had this experience,
he wouldn't have been in a

1680
01:50:46,320 --> 01:50:49,560
position to write from a
position of faith instead of a

1681
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:54,200
position of self aggrandizement
and pride, which is what God did

1682
01:50:54,200 --> 01:50:56,720
to Moses.
And in order for Moses to be an

1683
01:50:56,720 --> 01:51:00,600
effective emissary, to be his
prophet, Moses had to be humble.

1684
01:51:01,480 --> 01:51:04,120
Which is why when Moses was
shown the history of the whole

1685
01:51:04,120 --> 01:51:08,160
world and the presence of God
left him, he fell to the earth.

1686
01:51:08,600 --> 01:51:11,080
Right.
And he said now for this, 'cause

1687
01:51:11,080 --> 01:51:16,000
I know that I, man is nothing,
which thing I had never supposed

1688
01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:20,840
that's exactly what happened to
humanly smartest man alive,

1689
01:51:20,840 --> 01:51:23,400
arguably.
And he realizes what it, how

1690
01:51:23,400 --> 01:51:28,160
stupid he really is.
And that humility is what allows

1691
01:51:28,160 --> 01:51:32,800
us to change, to repent and to
be grateful.

1692
01:51:33,360 --> 01:51:37,400
Yeah, so he goes.
We're all pretty stupid, you

1693
01:51:37,400 --> 01:51:39,160
see.
Nobody's very anything.

1694
01:51:39,160 --> 01:51:40,960
He could laugh at himself
because he knew how stupid he

1695
01:51:40,960 --> 01:51:43,760
was.
Even he knew he was doing good.

1696
01:51:43,760 --> 01:51:47,880
He knew that, right.
But he saw the big picture.

1697
01:51:48,120 --> 01:51:51,840
Nobody's very anything.
We are not tested on these

1698
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:56,600
things, but the things the
angels envies for we can forgive

1699
01:51:56,600 --> 01:51:58,680
and we can repent.
SO3 Cheers.

1700
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:00,120
Let's not start repenting as of
now.

1701
01:52:00,360 --> 01:52:02,120
Why haven't you read that in the
scriptures?

1702
01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:04,160
Or have we?
We have.

1703
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:07,440
That's right, forgiveness is
charity.

1704
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:10,600
Yep.
Both Paul and Meroni, clearly

1705
01:52:10,800 --> 01:52:15,080
Mormon.
Yeah, Speaking of charity, he

1706
01:52:15,080 --> 01:52:17,920
that is possessed of it in the
last day, it shall be well with

1707
01:52:17,920 --> 01:52:19,080
him.
Period.

1708
01:52:19,320 --> 01:52:22,120
Right.
And Paul says if you don't have

1709
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:23,960
charity, you're nothing.
You're nothing.

1710
01:52:24,400 --> 01:52:28,240
That's what it's about.
And our capacity to learn in

1711
01:52:28,240 --> 01:52:31,880
mortality is pretty pathetic.
Line upon line, precept upon

1712
01:52:31,880 --> 01:52:33,760
precept.
Apparently in the hereafter, we

1713
01:52:33,760 --> 01:52:35,360
don't learn line upon line
precept.

1714
01:52:35,440 --> 01:52:38,560
We learn all at once.
And the fact that we're so

1715
01:52:38,560 --> 01:52:42,160
limited in our capacities here
is because it forces us to focus

1716
01:52:42,480 --> 01:52:45,440
on the only two things that
we're really being tested for,

1717
01:52:47,000 --> 01:52:51,120
the things that would allow us
to be trusted by God to give us

1718
01:52:51,120 --> 01:52:57,080
everything if we possess His
love and His capacity to forgive

1719
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:00,640
and, and to change, to be humble
enough to change.

1720
01:53:01,560 --> 01:53:05,920
You know, everybody who knew him
at that time in his life said

1721
01:53:05,920 --> 01:53:09,880
that he was visibly changed
after that.

1722
01:53:09,880 --> 01:53:10,960
He was.
Different.

1723
01:53:11,480 --> 01:53:14,040
You know, the the other thing I
find fascinating about this

1724
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:18,960
account is he said the thing
we're tested on is our moral

1725
01:53:18,960 --> 01:53:21,200
qualities.
Yeah, yeah.

1726
01:53:22,720 --> 01:53:25,680
Going back to forgiveness and
repentance, right?

1727
01:53:29,160 --> 01:53:31,160
That's an interesting
perspective, right?

1728
01:53:31,160 --> 01:53:33,920
We all run around, we all do our
thing.

1729
01:53:33,920 --> 01:53:37,240
We, we try to try to make our
way in this life and provide the

1730
01:53:37,240 --> 01:53:39,480
most comfortable living we can,
family.

1731
01:53:40,120 --> 01:53:43,000
But at the end of the day,
that's not what we're judged on.

1732
01:53:43,480 --> 01:53:45,920
Nope.
It's it's the moral morality

1733
01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:51,800
that we have that is the most
the most crucial thing per Hue

1734
01:53:51,800 --> 01:53:55,760
and his experience on these two
hang all the law and the

1735
01:53:55,760 --> 01:53:56,960
prophets.
Yep.

1736
01:53:57,440 --> 01:53:59,400
Loving the Lord the God with a
hot, bright mind of strength and

1737
01:53:59,400 --> 01:54:00,640
loving your neighbor as
yourself.

1738
01:54:00,840 --> 01:54:03,760
Tada.
If you do that, everything else

1739
01:54:03,760 --> 01:54:05,480
will fall into line.
Right.

1740
01:54:05,480 --> 01:54:09,920
Hopefully.
This is Boyd Peterson, the

1741
01:54:09,920 --> 01:54:13,960
author of his biography and
talking about this experience.

1742
01:54:13,960 --> 01:54:16,360
He said this experience had a
profound influence on Hugh.

1743
01:54:16,920 --> 01:54:19,160
Certainly education remained
important to him throughout the

1744
01:54:19,160 --> 01:54:21,680
rest of his life.
However, his experience was a

1745
01:54:21,680 --> 01:54:24,240
higher form of education that
helped him recognize the most

1746
01:54:24,240 --> 01:54:26,920
important test in his life.
We're not administered in the

1747
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:30,240
classroom, as you put it.
This knowledge helped him focus

1748
01:54:30,240 --> 01:54:34,120
on life as a period when we are
tested, as you said, for our

1749
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:37,080
moral qualities.
It was a pivotal experience that

1750
01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:40,000
served as a balance wheel for
his entire life.

1751
01:54:40,000 --> 01:54:44,160
And I think as I was preparing
for this, it was it was before

1752
01:54:44,160 --> 01:54:49,040
he went to war and it would.
And I think it served as kind of

1753
01:54:49,040 --> 01:54:55,080
a shield for him to survive
psychologically in the war

1754
01:54:55,080 --> 01:54:57,080
because he wasn't in constant
fear of death.

1755
01:54:57,080 --> 01:55:00,800
In fact, when he when he was
facing death at the end, he was

1756
01:55:00,800 --> 01:55:03,760
excited because they'd already
been there, meaning how awesome

1757
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:06,920
it was.
Wow.

1758
01:55:10,200 --> 01:55:13,920
Here is a rundown of him at war.
Look.

1759
01:55:13,960 --> 01:55:15,520
Look how old he looks in that
photo.

1760
01:55:16,400 --> 01:55:20,640
Right.
Yeah, it aged him significantly.

1761
01:55:23,200 --> 01:55:30,600
Enlisted 19421943 German order
Battle intelligence 44 D-Day 44

1762
01:55:30,600 --> 01:55:33,400
Invasion hall 45 travels widely
through Europe.

1763
01:55:35,320 --> 01:55:39,680
I was as I was reading this
account I was mentally counting

1764
01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:42,800
how many times he almost died or
should have died.

1765
01:55:43,240 --> 01:55:45,600
I think I stopped at a dozen.
He just.

1766
01:55:45,680 --> 01:55:47,000
I couldn't keep track of them
all.

1767
01:55:48,400 --> 01:55:50,640
It was so much so, and everybody
could see it.

1768
01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:56,360
He was not wounded.
Of the five intelligence offers

1769
01:55:56,360 --> 01:55:58,920
that went through the Richie
Boys that he went through with,

1770
01:55:59,240 --> 01:56:02,240
he was the only survivor.
Yeah.

1771
01:56:04,880 --> 01:56:07,760
His regular first Sergeant at
the Headquarters Company of the

1772
01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:14,120
101st Zilsky used to say
everything happens to Nibley and

1773
01:56:14,120 --> 01:56:16,880
nothing ever happens to him.
Wow.

1774
01:56:18,480 --> 01:56:23,400
Yeah, for, for example, driving
on the Utah beach, which wasn't

1775
01:56:23,400 --> 01:56:26,240
as bad as other beaches, but he
was still getting shot at,

1776
01:56:26,240 --> 01:56:28,520
right?
He wasn't supposed to drive the

1777
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:31,760
beach Dr. the Jeep.
He was supposed to be on one of

1778
01:56:31,760 --> 01:56:36,960
the gliders, but his commanding
officer said no, no, I want to

1779
01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:38,880
be in the glider.
I mean, he was a real go getter.

1780
01:56:39,240 --> 01:56:41,240
Well, he was killed.
He was killed.

1781
01:56:41,760 --> 01:56:43,480
That would have been Hugh,
right?

1782
01:56:44,560 --> 01:56:48,920
The other one is when he was in
the glider going into Holland,

1783
01:56:49,960 --> 01:56:53,480
he'd get sick on the gliders.
And anyway he looked and beside

1784
01:56:53,480 --> 01:56:56,000
it was this piece of sheet metal
that had been left on the glider

1785
01:56:57,320 --> 01:57:00,400
and he said, oh, I wonder if
that would be good to sit on.

1786
01:57:01,080 --> 01:57:03,920
So he puts it underneath him.
No sooner had he put it

1787
01:57:03,920 --> 01:57:10,920
underneath him it it took three
rounds, 3 bullet rounds which

1788
01:57:10,920 --> 01:57:15,360
would have hit him directly but
were absorbed by that shield.

1789
01:57:17,360 --> 01:57:19,800
Another one that I recall, he
was in a foxhole, you know,

1790
01:57:19,840 --> 01:57:25,960
behind enemy lines and a German,
I think it was a Mark 4 parked

1791
01:57:25,960 --> 01:57:28,400
over his foxhole.
Oh geez.

1792
01:57:31,200 --> 01:57:33,360
And he just sat there quietly
until they left.

1793
01:57:33,360 --> 01:57:40,600
I think it was in the morning.
But none of this phases him

1794
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:43,560
really, because he's already
seen the other side, right?

1795
01:57:44,080 --> 01:57:46,280
You know, And to hear him
describe it in his writings or

1796
01:57:46,600 --> 01:57:51,240
he's being interviewed by his
son, Alex, he said he realized

1797
01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:53,280
this is how it is.
It has to be.

1798
01:57:53,280 --> 01:57:56,200
So OK.
I mean, just accepted the

1799
01:57:56,200 --> 01:57:58,200
reality of the situations that
they were in.

1800
01:57:58,920 --> 01:58:01,600
Interesting.
And, of course, his assurance of

1801
01:58:01,600 --> 01:58:03,320
life after death, I have no
doubt.

1802
01:58:03,880 --> 01:58:05,920
And I don't even think he
probably had to think of it at

1803
01:58:05,920 --> 01:58:07,040
that point.
It was just part of his

1804
01:58:07,040 --> 01:58:10,080
psychology.
And if I die, awesome, it's

1805
01:58:10,320 --> 01:58:18,080
going to be awesome right?
Now, here's why.

1806
01:58:18,320 --> 01:58:24,040
Brigham Young University, I
think, was a crucial part of his

1807
01:58:24,040 --> 01:58:25,480
being able to publish like he
did.

1808
01:58:28,040 --> 01:58:33,640
Number one at BYU, he had the
resources to assemble a library

1809
01:58:33,640 --> 01:58:36,560
of hundreds of volumes of
ancient texts, right?

1810
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:43,200
He had that support #2 the
university uniquely allowed him

1811
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:48,920
time to pursue these religious
studies at another university.

1812
01:58:49,680 --> 01:58:53,520
Forget it, publish or parish
teacher full load.

1813
01:58:53,800 --> 01:58:56,480
You know, can't have any
students complaining about you.

1814
01:58:56,480 --> 01:58:58,280
I mean that.
I mean, which is I'm not

1815
01:58:58,280 --> 01:59:02,960
delegitimizing.
But they recognized what his

1816
01:59:02,960 --> 01:59:06,560
greater mission was, and they
gave him the liberty to do so.

1817
01:59:06,560 --> 01:59:10,040
That so #3 the academic freedom,
right?

1818
01:59:10,040 --> 01:59:12,280
Because he's not going to get
that at Claremont or any of

1819
01:59:12,280 --> 01:59:14,360
those other colleges, right?
Right.

1820
01:59:16,280 --> 01:59:20,120
Even at these divinity schools,
like Claremont had a religious

1821
01:59:20,120 --> 01:59:22,320
program in Harvard and the
Oriental Institute.

1822
01:59:22,920 --> 01:59:26,240
But to take a uniquely Mormon
approach to all of his studies,

1823
01:59:27,200 --> 01:59:33,960
no #4 he had protection.
As I and others can attest,

1824
01:59:33,960 --> 01:59:40,960
academia can be a battleground,
especially if, if, if people

1825
01:59:40,960 --> 01:59:42,640
have a, an axe to grind with
you.

1826
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:46,240
And there were those at Brigham
Young University who had an axe

1827
01:59:46,240 --> 01:59:50,680
to grind with you.
One of his Deans said this about

1828
01:59:50,680 --> 01:59:53,720
him.
Hugh Nibley is destroying the

1829
01:59:53,720 --> 01:59:56,280
church.
Why?

1830
01:59:56,280 --> 01:59:59,400
Why did he say that?
What was his impetus for saying

1831
01:59:59,400 --> 02:00:01,320
that?
Hugh.

1832
02:00:01,880 --> 02:00:05,440
Constantly mocked academia,
constantly talking about

1833
02:00:05,440 --> 02:00:08,160
curriculum instead of actually
just teaching the stuff.

1834
02:00:09,160 --> 02:00:13,640
And, and because he's
unconventional in what he

1835
02:00:13,640 --> 02:00:16,400
studies and how he writes and
what he writes about.

1836
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:23,160
I mean, he he wouldn't be a good
seminary teacher or he wouldn't

1837
02:00:23,160 --> 02:00:24,640
be good on the curriculum
committee.

1838
02:00:24,640 --> 02:00:30,480
I mean those guys straight
laced, as you say, and and I

1839
02:00:30,480 --> 02:00:33,920
think and and you see it in
every organization, but in the

1840
02:00:33,920 --> 02:00:38,720
church it, it manifests itself
as the Peter priesthoods, you

1841
02:00:38,720 --> 02:00:41,320
know, as they used to say, the
stereotype, don't ask any

1842
02:00:41,320 --> 02:00:42,800
questions, do your job kind of
thing.

1843
02:00:43,280 --> 02:00:46,960
Then we have people like Q
Nibley and me, not in the sense

1844
02:00:46,960 --> 02:00:51,040
of my intelligence, but in in
how I, I question things.

1845
02:00:51,040 --> 02:00:52,560
I can't help but I can't
suppress it.

1846
02:00:52,560 --> 02:00:55,880
I can't lie to myself.
You know, I have questions and

1847
02:00:56,560 --> 02:00:59,240
that's why I think that's why he
appealed to me so much because

1848
02:00:59,240 --> 02:01:02,880
he was asking the same coming up
with all these awesome answers.

1849
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:07,240
And not only was it OK, he was
honored for it.

1850
02:01:07,280 --> 02:01:11,080
He was recognized for that and
that.

1851
02:01:11,120 --> 02:01:14,240
And then suddenly I was like,
hey, I'm not bad.

1852
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:17,200
I'm just different and I have
questions.

1853
02:01:17,200 --> 02:01:20,320
And these could be awesome
things anyway we ever do.

1854
02:01:20,760 --> 02:01:26,080
Because look, if I'm not
mistaken, you kind of as much as

1855
02:01:26,080 --> 02:01:29,280
you can say this about a
universe, He he he attains kind

1856
02:01:29,280 --> 02:01:32,040
of a rock star status, right?
Yeah.

1857
02:01:32,160 --> 02:01:34,600
Yeah.
And and I can only imagine that

1858
02:01:34,600 --> 02:01:38,080
that must have because let's
face it, we all have egos,

1859
02:01:38,200 --> 02:01:40,040
right?
Professional jealousies, of

1860
02:01:40,040 --> 02:01:42,320
course.
And I can can only imagine that,

1861
02:01:42,320 --> 02:01:48,000
that this guy who's who's pretty
unassuming, seems to garner

1862
02:01:48,000 --> 02:01:51,400
this, this celebrity, if you
will, within Mormonism.

1863
02:01:52,320 --> 02:01:53,560
Yeah.
And what makes, what makes it

1864
02:01:53,560 --> 02:01:57,400
worse, he doesn't give.
He doesn't care about it.

1865
02:01:58,120 --> 02:02:01,240
He he, he doesn't care about the
regalia, he doesn't care about

1866
02:02:01,240 --> 02:02:04,760
the status, he doesn't care
about any of the stuff that they

1867
02:02:04,760 --> 02:02:06,400
care about.
And it's probably driving him

1868
02:02:06,400 --> 02:02:07,520
crazy.
Right.

1869
02:02:08,480 --> 02:02:12,280
So, yeah.
And, and so he had protection

1870
02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:16,440
because his former students were
presidents of the institution

1871
02:02:16,760 --> 02:02:20,120
and on the board of trustees.
So if anybody came after him,

1872
02:02:21,000 --> 02:02:24,000
they would stop it.
Right, Right.

1873
02:02:24,000 --> 02:02:27,240
So he enjoyed.
He enjoyed it.

1874
02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:31,320
A a tenure in academia that
often isn't afforded to some

1875
02:02:31,360 --> 02:02:34,160
people.
I mean, look, let's let's use

1876
02:02:34,160 --> 02:02:37,280
somebody who who I think you is
a fair comparison.

1877
02:02:38,360 --> 02:02:49,720
Maybe not as as is prolific in
publications, but if we look at

1878
02:02:49,720 --> 02:02:54,120
Jordan Peterson, right, this is
a guy who gets kicked out of

1879
02:02:54,120 --> 02:02:58,800
academia for, you know,
exploring things like the Bible,

1880
02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:01,560
right and and extracting lessons
from the Bible.

1881
02:03:02,440 --> 02:03:05,680
You know, I, I'm not sure of his
religious status.

1882
02:03:05,680 --> 02:03:09,720
I don't know if he is somebody
who is a believer per SE, but he

1883
02:03:09,720 --> 02:03:13,640
is he is he unconventionally so
and he was kicked out had

1884
02:03:13,640 --> 02:03:14,840
nothing to do with his
religious.

1885
02:03:15,320 --> 02:03:17,840
Studies.
He was questioning the political

1886
02:03:17,840 --> 02:03:20,000
correctness of the
transgenderism and that stuff is

1887
02:03:20,040 --> 02:03:22,040
going on.
And that's why they, they made

1888
02:03:22,040 --> 02:03:25,520
him take these what are
brainwashing classes.

1889
02:03:25,840 --> 02:03:28,640
You know, it's just awful.
So he's, he's out of that now,

1890
02:03:28,800 --> 02:03:32,120
right?
But, but we see a guy like him

1891
02:03:32,120 --> 02:03:34,840
who is wildly popular today,
right?

1892
02:03:34,840 --> 02:03:39,280
Not just among a, a certain
subsect of, of the population,

1893
02:03:39,800 --> 02:03:42,040
but globally.
And that wasn't enough to

1894
02:03:42,040 --> 02:03:47,440
protect him, right?
And so, Hugh, is Hugh Nibley

1895
02:03:47,600 --> 02:03:53,480
afforded a, a tenure in academia
that quite frankly, is, is

1896
02:03:53,720 --> 02:03:57,600
unheard of today, for sure.
Yeah, yeah.

1897
02:03:58,280 --> 02:04:02,680
And it's because church
leadership, which kind of bleeds

1898
02:04:02,680 --> 02:04:06,320
over into the leadership, would
be where you recognized his

1899
02:04:06,320 --> 02:04:08,120
uniqueness.
And they recognized from day

1900
02:04:08,120 --> 02:04:11,400
one, I mean, they were calling
on him from 1947 on.

1901
02:04:12,880 --> 02:04:18,120
So yeah, they were watching out
for this guy #5 And here's

1902
02:04:18,120 --> 02:04:22,000
another part.
In academia, colleagues are the

1903
02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:27,360
job of professors in academia is
not to toot each other's horns.

1904
02:04:29,040 --> 02:04:32,800
But what academia forces you to
do is to promote yourself,

1905
02:04:33,280 --> 02:04:34,880
right?
Publish or perish.

1906
02:04:34,880 --> 02:04:39,000
And when you're applying for 10
year promotions, you have to put

1907
02:04:39,000 --> 02:04:41,840
together a binder of how awesome
you are, right?

1908
02:04:41,840 --> 02:04:45,240
Nobody does that for you.
And you're so busy, it's not

1909
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:47,120
like you can run around and do
that for other people.

1910
02:04:48,120 --> 02:04:50,800
This is why this neck number
point, the fifth point I'm

1911
02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:52,800
trying to make, it's so
extraordinary.

1912
02:04:53,480 --> 02:04:56,520
Hugh Nibley's books were
published by other faculty

1913
02:04:56,520 --> 02:04:58,080
members.
Wow.

1914
02:05:00,520 --> 02:05:02,800
Like John Welch.
Yeah, Right.

1915
02:05:03,480 --> 02:05:07,440
And John Gee, the the preeminent
Egyptologist in the church right

1916
02:05:07,440 --> 02:05:12,000
now, and all these other guys
who have their own jobs, right.

1917
02:05:12,000 --> 02:05:15,400
And they're doing their own
publishing, took time to help

1918
02:05:15,400 --> 02:05:18,120
publish Hugh Nibley's works
because they felt this.

1919
02:05:19,600 --> 02:05:22,480
I mean, he was their teacher.
He was their inspiration.

1920
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:25,360
I mean, that's extraordinary.
Yeah.

1921
02:05:25,520 --> 02:05:27,640
Christ, like in a very big way,
yeah.

1922
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:31,600
Can you relate the story about
him and Truman Madsen and about

1923
02:05:31,600 --> 02:05:36,320
the naming of the series or
whatever 'cause I think that one

1924
02:05:36,320 --> 02:05:39,720
is huge, That one to me, I
remember watching that one on a

1925
02:05:39,720 --> 02:05:45,400
video and.
And yeah, to me that was Hugh

1926
02:05:45,800 --> 02:05:55,440
who Hugh Nibley was.
So in 1983, and I'll skip head

1927
02:05:55,440 --> 02:05:57,920
just a little bit, FARMS is
organized.

1928
02:05:58,640 --> 02:06:03,200
The impetus behind that, one of
the reasons that happened was

1929
02:06:03,200 --> 02:06:07,160
the president of BYU at the time
was Jeffrey Holland, who's a

1930
02:06:07,160 --> 02:06:15,000
scholar, and Truman Matson had
been the behind the publication

1931
02:06:15,880 --> 02:06:19,520
of the volume of nibbly essays
that predates the collected

1932
02:06:19,520 --> 02:06:22,680
works called Nibley on the
Timely and Timeless.

1933
02:06:23,880 --> 02:06:25,320
And this is the book we're
talking about.

1934
02:06:25,920 --> 02:06:27,800
But that was published and
that's the first one I read.

1935
02:06:27,800 --> 02:06:30,240
And I was like, Oh my, I mean,
I've been reading the essays and

1936
02:06:30,240 --> 02:06:34,320
essay form, but that but amazing
anyway.

1937
02:06:34,320 --> 02:06:37,440
So President Jeffrey Holland,
president university reads it

1938
02:06:38,840 --> 02:06:43,040
and he says to Truman Matson,
he's a let's see.

1939
02:06:43,360 --> 02:06:47,120
He suggested to Truman Matson
that a second volume of Nibley

1940
02:06:47,120 --> 02:06:49,040
on the Timely and Timeless might
be welcome.

1941
02:06:49,640 --> 02:06:54,480
Let's have two after that week
19, he said.

1942
02:06:54,800 --> 02:06:56,960
As I look at the Nibbly corpus,
wrote Holland.

1943
02:06:56,960 --> 02:07:02,080
It seems to me unfortunate that
more of those are not available.

1944
02:07:02,600 --> 02:07:05,360
Is there any way in which a
second volume might be pursued?

1945
02:07:05,360 --> 02:07:10,040
He asked.
But anyway, so to show you how

1946
02:07:10,480 --> 02:07:14,440
little Hugh Nibbly cares about
self aggrandizement, that sort

1947
02:07:14,440 --> 02:07:19,200
of thing.
And this was back before, I mean

1948
02:07:19,360 --> 02:07:21,760
when printing in the galley,
proofs and all stuff were done

1949
02:07:22,560 --> 02:07:25,520
without the aid of computers
predominantly, right?

1950
02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:28,640
Right.
And Truman Madison wanted to

1951
02:07:28,640 --> 02:07:31,960
surprise Hugh Nibley, so he
didn't ask him about the title.

1952
02:07:31,960 --> 02:07:33,160
He said, oh, he's going to love
it.

1953
02:07:33,600 --> 02:07:35,840
Invites you Nibley over.
And he lays out the galley

1954
02:07:35,840 --> 02:07:38,480
proofs on the table and all this
sort of stuff.

1955
02:07:38,480 --> 02:07:40,960
And Nibley had a cow.
He freaked.

1956
02:07:42,080 --> 02:07:46,360
You cannot call it this.
And oh, they were going to call

1957
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:50,440
it the Nibley legacy.
Yeah.

1958
02:07:50,480 --> 02:07:53,360
He said you cannot call it this
legacy makes it sound like I'm

1959
02:07:53,360 --> 02:07:56,240
dead and I don't want my name in
it.

1960
02:07:56,760 --> 02:07:58,560
You know, You know, it was all
about that sort of stuff.

1961
02:07:59,600 --> 02:08:02,120
And of course, the Gallic proofs
are all done.

1962
02:08:02,800 --> 02:08:08,080
It was ready to go to print.
And Truman Matson was adamant.

1963
02:08:08,080 --> 02:08:11,080
He says, Hugh, we're going to
have to change all of this.

1964
02:08:11,080 --> 02:08:15,160
It's going to take weeks.
It's going to cost over $1000 in

1965
02:08:15,160 --> 02:08:17,560
that day.
Whose response was take it out

1966
02:08:17,560 --> 02:08:21,600
of my royalties.
And Truman, Truman Matheson

1967
02:08:21,600 --> 02:08:24,720
said, do you really care that
much about a title?

1968
02:08:25,200 --> 02:08:28,080
And you nibbly says, no, I care
that little about royalties.

1969
02:08:33,080 --> 02:08:37,160
And so it was changed to nibbly
on the timely and timeless

1970
02:08:37,160 --> 02:08:40,280
instead of you nibbly legacy or
something legacy if you nibbly

1971
02:08:40,280 --> 02:08:45,280
Interesting.
Yeah, and finally, the trust of

1972
02:08:45,280 --> 02:08:47,520
the church leader.
So he was protected and allowed

1973
02:08:47,520 --> 02:08:50,960
a given time and leeway to do
things that other professors

1974
02:08:51,400 --> 02:08:53,320
would never get to do.
Right.

1975
02:08:54,160 --> 02:08:58,440
Yeah, 46.
He marries Phyllis Draper.

1976
02:08:58,440 --> 02:09:03,840
There they are with their kids.
How did he feel about his wife?

1977
02:09:05,240 --> 02:09:09,600
So he was bedridden for like at
least the last two years of his

1978
02:09:09,600 --> 02:09:14,400
life, which was impossibly
difficult for him because he was

1979
02:09:14,400 --> 02:09:17,240
very active physically,
mentally, verbally.

1980
02:09:17,240 --> 02:09:20,040
And he was he couldn't, it was
hard for him to talk and he

1981
02:09:20,040 --> 02:09:23,080
couldn't write.
Just stuck in his bed watching

1982
02:09:23,080 --> 02:09:24,200
CNN all day.
Right.

1983
02:09:24,960 --> 02:09:29,720
And his son says this about him.
son-in-law.

1984
02:09:29,720 --> 02:09:34,560
What was left in that hospital
bed in the weeks prior to his

1985
02:09:34,560 --> 02:09:37,720
death, prior to his death, was
nothing but love because he was

1986
02:09:37,720 --> 02:09:40,960
forced for the first time in his
life, with all these other

1987
02:09:40,960 --> 02:09:43,160
things aside and focus on the
people around him.

1988
02:09:43,800 --> 02:09:46,760
Right.
When one visitor asked him a

1989
02:09:46,760 --> 02:09:51,240
probing question about the
definition of love, Hugh pointed

1990
02:09:51,240 --> 02:09:55,120
to Phyllis, his wife, who had
consecrated so much of her life

1991
02:09:55,120 --> 02:09:59,120
to her husband's work and who
now waited on his every need.

1992
02:09:59,120 --> 02:10:02,640
She was his caretaker, and he
simply said, there she is.

1993
02:10:02,640 --> 02:10:06,200
So what's the definition of
love?

1994
02:10:06,880 --> 02:10:13,080
There she is.
You know, whether it's me in

1995
02:10:13,080 --> 02:10:16,160
this podcast or you and writing
this book and jumping on here

1996
02:10:16,160 --> 02:10:20,760
and having all these podcasts
with me, the meetings we attend

1997
02:10:20,760 --> 02:10:28,640
for our various religious
activities, I couldn't do any of

1998
02:10:28,640 --> 02:10:36,240
this without my wife's, not a
single solitary bit without

1999
02:10:36,240 --> 02:10:40,520
their support.
And if we think of just how

2000
02:10:41,720 --> 02:10:49,880
prolific Unibly was, there must
have been a bond between the two

2001
02:10:49,880 --> 02:10:56,400
of them that was unbreakable,
right?

2002
02:10:59,800 --> 02:11:03,240
We asked women to do hard
things, right?

2003
02:11:03,480 --> 02:11:09,320
We, you know, whether, whether
you're a guy like me or not, we

2004
02:11:09,320 --> 02:11:16,280
asked him to allow the world to
have access to us, right?

2005
02:11:18,800 --> 02:11:24,320
And that doesn't come cheap, no.
And and so often we talk about

2006
02:11:24,320 --> 02:11:28,760
the men and their legacies and
what they left behind and so

2007
02:11:28,760 --> 02:11:30,960
often.
I, I I.

2008
02:11:30,960 --> 02:11:34,400
Find myself wondering what was
the home life like?

2009
02:11:35,120 --> 02:11:37,240
Right.
But there must have been

2010
02:11:37,240 --> 02:11:40,280
something there for her to say.
He's not going into a

2011
02:11:40,280 --> 02:11:43,240
convalescent home.
He's going to stay right here

2012
02:11:43,240 --> 02:11:46,240
with me and I will take care of
him.

2013
02:11:49,840 --> 02:11:54,520
Often times the wives of, of
guys just don't get the credit

2014
02:11:54,520 --> 02:11:57,000
that they deserve.
Oh, clearly not.

2015
02:11:57,040 --> 02:12:03,120
I mean, that's motherhood and
matriarchy is based on it's

2016
02:12:03,120 --> 02:12:05,960
founded on service.
The greatest of all is the

2017
02:12:05,960 --> 02:12:11,200
servant of all, says Christ.
And nobody serves the family

2018
02:12:11,200 --> 02:12:17,440
more than the person who gives
birth and rears and raises these

2019
02:12:17,440 --> 02:12:20,160
children to maturity.
Oh my goodness.

2020
02:12:20,440 --> 02:12:23,680
In her case, she would actually
do some proofing and editing of

2021
02:12:23,680 --> 02:12:26,160
his work.
So she was, she was in it with

2022
02:12:26,160 --> 02:12:30,160
him, which was awesome, you
know, that she had that kind of

2023
02:12:30,560 --> 02:12:33,680
investment.
She had staked her in that.

2024
02:12:33,680 --> 02:12:43,520
So now his family life, and you
can imagine his focus made him a

2025
02:12:43,520 --> 02:12:44,760
little bit difficult to live
with.

2026
02:12:45,080 --> 02:12:47,520
It is said that every when he
went to bed every night, there's

2027
02:12:47,520 --> 02:12:50,480
only a couple times he didn't
bring a book to bed, you know,

2028
02:12:51,680 --> 02:12:52,640
Good night, honey.
Thanks.

2029
02:12:52,640 --> 02:12:54,640
I'm going to be reading myself
to sleep, you know, kind of a

2030
02:12:54,640 --> 02:12:58,160
thing.
And he was preoccupied with that

2031
02:12:58,160 --> 02:13:02,880
stuff and I falsely assumed that
he was kind, maybe an absentee

2032
02:13:02,880 --> 02:13:04,520
father and they just had to put
up with it.

2033
02:13:05,000 --> 02:13:09,200
I was very pleased to discover
that is not the case, his

2034
02:13:09,200 --> 02:13:13,680
daughter Christina says,
despite, or perhaps because of,

2035
02:13:13,680 --> 02:13:17,000
his childlike awe at the
beauties of nature and his

2036
02:13:17,000 --> 02:13:20,120
constant preoccupation with
discovering the ancient past.

2037
02:13:20,840 --> 02:13:24,680
Dad could be a difficult man to
live with, especially for our

2038
02:13:24,680 --> 02:13:28,400
mother, who was his partner for
58 years.

2039
02:13:28,920 --> 02:13:33,280
He was a man who loved children,
however, and together they had

2040
02:13:33,280 --> 02:13:36,240
eight of us.
Daddy especially loved babies

2041
02:13:36,560 --> 02:13:42,160
and toddlers and was actually
quite a helpful babysitter and

2042
02:13:42,160 --> 02:13:45,520
labor saver when there were
several little ones at a time

2043
02:13:45,520 --> 02:13:48,720
running loose in the house.
He changed thousands of diapers

2044
02:13:48,720 --> 02:13:50,520
in his lifetime.
There are a lot of dads who

2045
02:13:50,520 --> 02:13:53,880
won't change them at all and he
wasn't using disposable diapers.

2046
02:13:54,320 --> 02:13:59,000
Yeah, yeah.
To me that speaks volumes.

2047
02:13:59,600 --> 02:14:03,480
Not a guy I will do that.
Love his kids.

2048
02:14:04,120 --> 02:14:08,400
The best tribute I ever read
about him was this one that I'm

2049
02:14:08,400 --> 02:14:10,280
going to read next from his
daughter Rebecca.

2050
02:14:12,120 --> 02:14:14,960
She said, oh, how I loved my
father.

2051
02:14:15,600 --> 02:14:19,720
He was my hero.
The smartest, funniest,

2052
02:14:20,040 --> 02:14:25,600
wittiest, wisest, silliest,
sweetest man I knew.

2053
02:14:27,640 --> 02:14:30,680
If I if my daughter had those
feelings for me, I would be the

2054
02:14:30,680 --> 02:14:33,560
happiest man alive.
And I tried so hard.

2055
02:14:33,560 --> 02:14:37,400
I want her to know how
incredible she is and how

2056
02:14:37,400 --> 02:14:41,160
important she is to me.
One of his daughters, one of

2057
02:14:41,160 --> 02:14:45,400
his, she was like 5.
He would take his kids on hikes

2058
02:14:45,400 --> 02:14:48,680
with him.
I love this one photo, I don't

2059
02:14:48,680 --> 02:14:52,080
think I included it was he and
his five sons.

2060
02:14:52,960 --> 02:14:55,560
He was holding the hands of two
of them from behind, walking

2061
02:14:55,560 --> 02:14:59,160
through this, you know, walking
down this trail together, he and

2062
02:14:59,160 --> 02:15:06,040
his five little boys anyway, you
know, to to go along with that

2063
02:15:07,880 --> 02:15:13,480
when I die, if the thing that's
said about me is he was a good

2064
02:15:13,480 --> 02:15:19,120
surveyor or he had a great
podcast owner, that's what I'm

2065
02:15:19,120 --> 02:15:21,720
remembered for.
I'm going to be so pissed,

2066
02:15:22,320 --> 02:15:23,560
right?
I'm going to be so pissed

2067
02:15:23,960 --> 02:15:28,960
because at the end of the day,
it's my family I care about

2068
02:15:28,960 --> 02:15:31,880
most.
And look, the rest of the world

2069
02:15:33,280 --> 02:15:35,800
could, could hate me.
That's OK.

2070
02:15:36,360 --> 02:15:40,520
As long as the people that that
I love the most know that I

2071
02:15:40,520 --> 02:15:44,160
loved them.
Yeah, That's all I care about.

2072
02:15:44,640 --> 02:15:47,400
That's that's all I care about.
And I think from what you're

2073
02:15:47,400 --> 02:15:52,600
describing, Hugh here, Nibley
was much the same way or in

2074
02:15:52,600 --> 02:15:54,640
reverse.
Try to remember who said it.

2075
02:15:55,760 --> 02:16:00,800
David O McKay.
I think no worldly success can

2076
02:16:00,800 --> 02:16:02,360
compensate for failure in the
home.

2077
02:16:02,600 --> 02:16:07,080
Yep.
Yep, 100% fame, fortune, you

2078
02:16:07,080 --> 02:16:09,560
name it.
If I failed my kids.

2079
02:16:09,960 --> 02:16:12,440
And boy, when they're little,
you just so fall in love with

2080
02:16:12,560 --> 02:16:14,080
them, you know?
Yeah, Yeah.

2081
02:16:14,760 --> 02:16:17,000
You know, And then you like them
and then you admire them as

2082
02:16:17,000 --> 02:16:18,680
adults.
And even though they make

2083
02:16:18,680 --> 02:16:27,280
mistakes and stuff, if I if I I
remember saying this to myself,

2084
02:16:27,280 --> 02:16:30,840
God help me if I ever do
anything to harm my children in

2085
02:16:30,840 --> 02:16:31,920
any way.
Yeah.

2086
02:16:32,639 --> 02:16:34,680
Yep, 100%.
I'm there with you, Ken.

2087
02:16:37,559 --> 02:16:40,959
You talked about farms.
I was going to tell you about

2088
02:16:41,480 --> 02:16:43,320
his daughter.
I think it was ZINA.

2089
02:16:44,040 --> 02:16:45,639
Zina is her name.
Zina.

2090
02:16:45,799 --> 02:16:47,760
He took her camping.
She's like five years old.

2091
02:16:48,160 --> 02:16:50,240
OK.
They were in this basin, they

2092
02:16:50,240 --> 02:16:52,920
were camping at the the bottom
of this basin.

2093
02:16:53,480 --> 02:16:58,840
She wakes up in the morning and
her father's gone, which scared

2094
02:16:58,840 --> 02:17:01,639
her, and she came out of the
tent suddenly he comes

2095
02:17:01,639 --> 02:17:06,639
scrambling down the side of the
hill, scoops her up in his arm

2096
02:17:06,639 --> 02:17:09,320
and takes her up to the top of
the hill again so, so that she

2097
02:17:09,320 --> 02:17:14,080
could see the sunrise with him.
And what she realized what he

2098
02:17:14,080 --> 02:17:16,440
had done.
He'd gone up to the top of the,

2099
02:17:16,520 --> 02:17:19,680
the rim of the bowl of the basin
so he could photograph his

2100
02:17:19,680 --> 02:17:25,000
daughter down at the campsite.
Interesting.

2101
02:17:25,400 --> 02:17:30,080
I just, I, I thought, you know,
the, the, his, the way he was

2102
02:17:30,080 --> 02:17:33,240
focused and hyper focused on his
work.

2103
02:17:33,240 --> 02:17:37,320
I thought maybe he's like on the
autism scale, but to see his

2104
02:17:37,600 --> 02:17:41,040
humanity with his children, no,
he's all there.

2105
02:17:41,040 --> 02:17:44,040
And that he was, I mean, really
functional in that regard.

2106
02:17:44,799 --> 02:17:47,959
So from 1980 on, when Hugh
Nibley and the fledgling

2107
02:17:47,959 --> 02:17:50,719
Foundation for Ancient Research
and Mormon Studies had been

2108
02:17:50,719 --> 02:17:54,080
joined at the hip, he was happy
to have his name listed as a

2109
02:17:54,080 --> 02:17:57,680
member of the FARMS board when
it began to mail out periodic

2110
02:17:57,680 --> 02:18:01,360
newsletters in 1981.
I was one of the some of the

2111
02:18:01,360 --> 02:18:04,480
first people to get those right
after my mission.

2112
02:18:04,799 --> 02:18:08,320
FARMS soon began offering Xerox
copies of significant articles

2113
02:18:08,320 --> 02:18:11,639
about the Book of Mormon in a
series called The FARMS

2114
02:18:11,639 --> 02:18:14,879
Reprints.
That was like, those are the

2115
02:18:14,879 --> 02:18:16,639
happiest day when I'd get those
in the mail.

2116
02:18:17,480 --> 02:18:22,680
More nibbling.
Several of Nibley's hard to find

2117
02:18:22,680 --> 02:18:24,959
articles were distributed among
these reprints.

2118
02:18:25,680 --> 02:18:28,280
That was a day before digital
copies e-mail.

2119
02:18:28,280 --> 02:18:31,240
With a widespread availability
of the Internet, the demand for

2120
02:18:31,240 --> 02:18:35,120
these reprints was truly modest
by today's standards.

2121
02:18:35,799 --> 02:18:39,480
But for its day, the number of
copies made and conveniently

2122
02:18:39,480 --> 02:18:42,840
mailed out was phenomenal and
sensational.

2123
02:18:44,280 --> 02:18:46,240
Yeah, I was so cool.
And then they sent out this

2124
02:18:46,240 --> 02:18:47,920
little catalogue you could order
from.

2125
02:18:50,480 --> 02:18:54,320
By 1982, Pharms had issued a
catalogue of articles, which it

2126
02:18:54,320 --> 02:18:57,520
sent free to its mailing list.
Soon there, and these are

2127
02:18:57,520 --> 02:18:59,120
articles you could buy for like
a buck.

2128
02:18:59,719 --> 02:19:01,440
You know, some guys that we
could afford it back then.

2129
02:19:02,240 --> 02:19:04,400
Soon thereafter, the
organization established the

2130
02:19:04,400 --> 02:19:06,920
goal of bringing together all of
Hugh's collective works.

2131
02:19:07,520 --> 02:19:11,160
As Welch puts it, he knew what
farms needed to build directly

2132
02:19:11,559 --> 02:19:15,639
on the He knew that farms needed
to build directly on the

2133
02:19:15,639 --> 02:19:18,680
scholarly work of Hugh Nibley,
who had taught many of us as

2134
02:19:18,680 --> 02:19:21,240
students.
And we knew that our future was

2135
02:19:21,240 --> 02:19:26,160
closely aligned with his past
because their work were founded

2136
02:19:26,160 --> 02:19:29,280
were based upon the things.
Yeah, he was the first guy,

2137
02:19:29,280 --> 02:19:31,280
right?
Everybody stands on his

2138
02:19:31,280 --> 02:19:33,080
shoulders in this field of
study.

2139
02:19:33,639 --> 02:19:34,400
Yep.
Yep.

2140
02:19:34,520 --> 02:19:37,440
I so absolutely agree.
So you can see the publication

2141
02:19:37,440 --> 02:19:38,920
dates.
They start in 1986.

2142
02:19:38,920 --> 02:19:41,879
And when we talk about his
teachings in specific, we'll

2143
02:19:42,200 --> 02:19:43,639
talk about the publication
dates.

2144
02:19:43,639 --> 02:19:48,160
And that's 19 volumes over 24
years.

2145
02:19:48,160 --> 02:19:51,560
So they were busy almost a
volume per year, Right.

2146
02:19:52,440 --> 02:19:58,600
And that was pretty serious.
So here's this unknown quantity

2147
02:19:58,600 --> 02:20:03,360
of research.
So he loved especially that he

2148
02:20:03,360 --> 02:20:06,560
had a chance many times to do
assignments anonymously.

2149
02:20:07,240 --> 02:20:10,160
Speaking to Zion, he told me
once that the projects he

2150
02:20:10,160 --> 02:20:14,440
contributed to that were the
most worthwhile were those that

2151
02:20:14,440 --> 02:20:18,080
he could not take credit for.
Interesting.

2152
02:20:18,880 --> 02:20:20,760
You know, like you like.
So what were they?

2153
02:20:21,480 --> 02:20:23,640
I want them so bad.
Yeah.

2154
02:20:25,200 --> 02:20:28,120
And I love this.
When asked how he was able to

2155
02:20:28,120 --> 02:20:32,240
accomplish the prodigious work
he did, this is his son Thomas.

2156
02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:35,240
His answer was often a single
word prayer.

2157
02:20:35,920 --> 02:20:40,040
And then on rare occasions, I
also heard him mentioned that he

2158
02:20:40,040 --> 02:20:43,440
had, quote, a private
arrangement with the other side,

2159
02:20:43,800 --> 02:20:49,520
which he thoroughly enjoyed.
That's all we know about that.

2160
02:20:52,200 --> 02:20:53,440
This is what I mentioned
earlier.

2161
02:20:53,640 --> 02:20:56,480
There's the photograph of him
with his Underwood typewriter.

2162
02:20:57,520 --> 02:21:01,360
She's recommendation on the 1st
Digital LDS Library in 1997 was

2163
02:21:01,680 --> 02:21:03,200
I wish I'd had this 40 years
ago.

2164
02:21:03,200 --> 02:21:06,000
Could you imagine?
Oh yeah, what he could have

2165
02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:08,000
done?
Yep.

2166
02:21:08,400 --> 02:21:11,640
I can only imagine what he must
be thinking on the other side as

2167
02:21:11,640 --> 02:21:15,680
someone goes through his works
online and just types in a a

2168
02:21:15,680 --> 02:21:18,160
keyword search like you
cheaters.

2169
02:21:18,360 --> 02:21:21,480
You cheaters.
Yeah, maybe.

2170
02:21:21,480 --> 02:21:25,040
On the other hand, I think, I
think he's delighted you and I

2171
02:21:25,040 --> 02:21:29,880
can you and I can do this and
that we can talk about the

2172
02:21:29,880 --> 02:21:34,040
truths that he lived, that he
discovered and that he shared

2173
02:21:34,680 --> 02:21:38,880
and expounded upon with so many
free of charge.

2174
02:21:39,360 --> 02:21:41,640
He never, it was never about the
money for him.

2175
02:21:41,640 --> 02:21:43,520
Never.
He didn't care about that,

2176
02:21:45,240 --> 02:21:46,320
right?
Did not care.

2177
02:21:50,080 --> 02:21:59,000
Well, so that's it.
Save the 10,000 pages of his

2178
02:21:59,000 --> 02:22:01,080
teachings.
So.

2179
02:22:01,200 --> 02:22:04,920
So let me ask you this in
conclusion, let let me ask a few

2180
02:22:04,920 --> 02:22:07,040
questions here before I get to
there.

2181
02:22:08,680 --> 02:22:12,880
Do you ever, have you, have you
come across anything at which

2182
02:22:14,400 --> 02:22:20,640
Nibley feels like maybe, maybe
he feels like there was

2183
02:22:20,640 --> 02:22:23,640
something more he could have
done, right?

2184
02:22:24,040 --> 02:22:27,680
Is there any inclination that
he's like, oh, I messed this up

2185
02:22:27,680 --> 02:22:29,480
or I didn't do anything like
that?

2186
02:22:29,920 --> 02:22:34,280
And, and I I asked the question
not to deride Hugh Nibley.

2187
02:22:34,640 --> 02:22:37,200
Oh, no.
But that's a wonderful question.

2188
02:22:37,640 --> 02:22:41,760
But it, it's sometimes we tend
to turn these kind of guys into

2189
02:22:41,760 --> 02:22:46,160
marble statues, right?
And we don't do them justice

2190
02:22:46,640 --> 02:22:51,160
because if we don't see their
humanity and, and we've seen his

2191
02:22:51,160 --> 02:22:56,040
humanity here.
But sometimes your, your, your

2192
02:22:56,040 --> 02:22:58,960
humanity is best on display when
you feel like you've fallen

2193
02:22:58,960 --> 02:23:04,720
short of something.
He was the first one to confess

2194
02:23:05,360 --> 02:23:10,800
that his works would go out of
date or be superseded by

2195
02:23:10,800 --> 02:23:12,960
something.
Well, when we read about his

2196
02:23:12,960 --> 02:23:16,720
teachings, he was the first to
say science is self correcting.

2197
02:23:17,440 --> 02:23:21,240
Things change.
Wait, he was was he saying the

2198
02:23:21,240 --> 02:23:25,240
science is never settled?
Yeah, something like that.

2199
02:23:25,480 --> 02:23:28,600
Yes, weird.
Very in very fun ways.

2200
02:23:29,160 --> 02:23:30,880
And and he said the the same
thing.

2201
02:23:30,880 --> 02:23:35,480
He didn't expect that his works,
his works were not scripture.

2202
02:23:35,480 --> 02:23:38,880
He knew that he knew they would
be superseded.

2203
02:23:38,880 --> 02:23:40,920
He knew they might be become
outdated.

2204
02:23:41,600 --> 02:23:44,960
There was one point and I did a
specific search through his

2205
02:23:44,960 --> 02:23:51,320
library for Adam God references.
He mentioned it once in speaking

2206
02:23:51,320 --> 02:23:54,840
about man's relationship to God
and to the the pre Adamites.

2207
02:23:57,360 --> 02:24:05,200
And he said something about our
relationship with God relative

2208
02:24:05,200 --> 02:24:07,080
to Adam God.
He says, but I'm not prepared to

2209
02:24:07,080 --> 02:24:10,840
talk about that right now.
And he didn't talk nothing.

2210
02:24:11,200 --> 02:24:16,400
I've heard some interesting
stories because OK, so now I'm

2211
02:24:16,400 --> 02:24:19,040
going to go a little bit fundy
here, so bear with me.

2212
02:24:19,640 --> 02:24:21,720
Well, we know he loved and
revered Brigham Young.

2213
02:24:21,720 --> 02:24:25,200
So he knows we know that he knew
the Brigham Young believed it.

2214
02:24:25,280 --> 02:24:29,640
So go on.
There is there was a prominent

2215
02:24:32,560 --> 02:24:35,200
there was a prominent author
within fundamentalism.

2216
02:24:36,320 --> 02:24:39,440
And I don't want to say the name
because quite frankly, I want to

2217
02:24:39,440 --> 02:24:41,840
get permission that it would be
OK.

2218
02:24:41,840 --> 02:24:44,440
And I didn't.
Chicken.

2219
02:24:45,040 --> 02:24:46,760
What's that?
Chicken.

2220
02:24:47,240 --> 02:24:51,480
You call me chicken.
It's on Ogden Kraut.

2221
02:24:53,440 --> 02:24:56,360
I knew that would work.
Yeah.

2222
02:24:56,360 --> 02:24:58,160
I'm a simple man, OK.
I like.

2223
02:24:58,200 --> 02:24:59,880
Yeah, I like steak.
I like football.

2224
02:24:59,880 --> 02:25:02,640
And I I'm easily baited.
OK.

2225
02:25:06,080 --> 02:25:09,520
If I'm not mistaken, he'd even
talked to to certain

2226
02:25:09,520 --> 02:25:13,320
fundamentalists that that he
felt were scholarly.

2227
02:25:14,040 --> 02:25:22,120
Which you had to respect right
from my, from my camp, the guy's

2228
02:25:22,120 --> 02:25:24,920
just an honest dealer, right?
You got questions, you can talk

2229
02:25:24,920 --> 02:25:27,240
to him, he'll talk to you,
right?

2230
02:25:27,240 --> 02:25:32,200
And, and I think that's why even
today, like right now, one of

2231
02:25:32,200 --> 02:25:36,600
the big things that I know is,
is being read in, in my faith

2232
02:25:36,600 --> 02:25:39,440
community is, is approaching
Zion.

2233
02:25:40,120 --> 02:25:42,040
Right.
Right.

2234
02:25:42,040 --> 02:25:48,680
And so his work has a way of
spanning really Brighamite

2235
02:25:48,680 --> 02:25:51,400
tradition, if you want to use
that word, right.

2236
02:25:51,400 --> 02:25:58,600
Oh, gosh, he revered, he revered
the teachings and of Brigham

2237
02:25:58,600 --> 02:26:00,400
Young.
And we're going to talk about

2238
02:26:00,400 --> 02:26:04,000
one of those Brigham Young
essays and he says, and he calls

2239
02:26:04,000 --> 02:26:06,360
out people who tend to
marginalized the teachings of

2240
02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:09,600
Brigham Young.
He said Brigham Young, he was

2241
02:26:09,600 --> 02:26:14,640
Joseph Smith's most devoted
disciple who learned at the feet

2242
02:26:14,640 --> 02:26:17,240
of Joseph.
We need to, we need to take his

2243
02:26:17,480 --> 02:26:21,600
works, his, his words and his
teaching more seriously, right?

2244
02:26:22,280 --> 02:26:28,240
So let, let me let me say this
right, because I do think that

2245
02:26:28,240 --> 02:26:31,560
in some ways Nibbly might feel a
certain kinship to Brigham.

2246
02:26:32,120 --> 02:26:35,800
You call him the, you called him
the expounder, right?

2247
02:26:36,280 --> 02:26:39,760
And if you look at a lot of what
Brigham Young taught, not

2248
02:26:39,760 --> 02:26:44,720
everything, but a vast, vast
majority of it, he simply

2249
02:26:44,720 --> 02:26:47,640
expounds upon what Joseph had
already taught.

2250
02:26:47,640 --> 02:26:51,360
He was an expounder.
And I agree and cause 'cause

2251
02:26:51,400 --> 02:26:55,320
unlike Joseph, who, look, they
were ready to lynch that dude

2252
02:26:55,320 --> 02:26:59,000
over a new set of scripture that
on the surface, a very surface

2253
02:26:59,000 --> 02:27:01,840
reading seems kind of
Trinitarian, right?

2254
02:27:03,880 --> 02:27:05,680
They were ready to lynch him
over that.

2255
02:27:05,920 --> 02:27:09,280
Can you imagine trying to
preach, you know, things out of

2256
02:27:09,280 --> 02:27:13,360
the king fall at discourse,
plural marriage, those sorts of

2257
02:27:13,360 --> 02:27:15,880
things, They'd have hammered him
in a heartbeat.

2258
02:27:16,200 --> 02:27:20,720
When Brigham gets out West, he
doesn't have any of those same

2259
02:27:20,720 --> 02:27:21,600
issues.
He.

2260
02:27:21,600 --> 02:27:24,560
Yeah, he's cut loose.
Yeah, and he can expound on

2261
02:27:24,560 --> 02:27:27,000
that.
So I'm just guessing.

2262
02:27:27,120 --> 02:27:32,080
No one should take this as as
gospel by any stretch of the

2263
02:27:32,080 --> 02:27:35,120
imagination.
But rationally, I think that he

2264
02:27:35,120 --> 02:27:39,800
probably looks at Brigham and
feels a kinship because just as

2265
02:27:39,800 --> 02:27:42,200
Nibley's an expounder, so was
Brigham Young.

2266
02:27:43,040 --> 02:27:45,560
Well, the other thing they have
in common is how is their

2267
02:27:45,560 --> 02:27:48,560
directness?
Yes, the thing that then we'll

2268
02:27:48,560 --> 02:27:53,440
study, the essay we're going to
look at by Hunibley is educating

2269
02:27:53,440 --> 02:27:54,680
the Saints.
Yeah.

2270
02:27:56,280 --> 02:28:01,520
And, and I'll tell you if you
don't appreciate Brigham Young's

2271
02:28:01,520 --> 02:28:05,200
directness, and it wasn't mean,
it was just directed.

2272
02:28:05,200 --> 02:28:06,840
It was kind of, I mean, it was
like you would talk to your

2273
02:28:06,840 --> 02:28:09,520
neighbors and stuff, right?
And that, and that was the

2274
02:28:09,520 --> 02:28:12,080
rhetorical style, frankly, of
that time period.

2275
02:28:12,080 --> 02:28:15,200
He was so good at it.
And everything Brigham Young

2276
02:28:15,200 --> 02:28:20,160
said was extemporaneous.
Incredible when you see what he

2277
02:28:20,160 --> 02:28:22,520
says.
Yep, yes, you will find

2278
02:28:22,520 --> 02:28:24,800
contradictions of what he says,
but he's the most recorded

2279
02:28:24,800 --> 02:28:28,360
prophet of the era.
Yep, we have far more.

2280
02:28:28,760 --> 02:28:33,880
And, and then we had the JD Watt
transcriptions and, and do they

2281
02:28:33,880 --> 02:28:36,720
really say exactly what he said?
No, they don't.

2282
02:28:36,720 --> 02:28:39,720
We know that, but it's still the
best that we have and it's still

2283
02:28:40,040 --> 02:28:44,800
and it's still profound.
And so I I I love the directness

2284
02:28:45,000 --> 02:28:48,280
of Brigham Young.
And Hugh Nibley is very direct.

2285
02:28:49,280 --> 02:28:51,560
Yeah, so I think so.
So in, in, in that essay, you'll

2286
02:28:51,560 --> 02:28:55,640
be reading Brigham Young and and
then unibbly will interject.

2287
02:28:55,880 --> 02:28:57,560
And it's easy to get them
confused.

2288
02:28:57,920 --> 02:28:59,400
Absolutely.
Because neither of them are

2289
02:28:59,400 --> 02:29:00,440
beating around the Bush, you
know.

2290
02:29:00,640 --> 02:29:04,720
Nope.
And Brigham Young was rightfully

2291
02:29:04,720 --> 02:29:07,480
has rightfully been called by
American historians as the

2292
02:29:07,480 --> 02:29:09,200
American Moses.
Absolutely.

2293
02:29:09,440 --> 02:29:12,000
And rightfully so.
That's huge.

2294
02:29:12,120 --> 02:29:15,720
Yep, Yep, absolutely.
And he was.

2295
02:29:16,320 --> 02:29:18,880
Yes, he was made of sterner
stuff.

2296
02:29:21,520 --> 02:29:25,560
That is absolutely.
When you know anything about the

2297
02:29:25,560 --> 02:29:32,040
exodus to the Salt Lake Valley,
then you had to be tough as

2298
02:29:32,040 --> 02:29:34,440
nails to do that.
Absolutely.

2299
02:29:34,480 --> 02:29:38,920
You had to guide with a firm
hand to make that happen.

2300
02:29:39,240 --> 02:29:41,760
You had to be able to chew on
steel a little bit and spit it

2301
02:29:41,760 --> 02:29:43,240
back out.
I mean, that's just all they're

2302
02:29:43,240 --> 02:29:45,520
worth to it.
But, and I'll tell you what, and

2303
02:29:45,520 --> 02:29:53,200
you had to be rock solid in his
testimony, the foundation of its

2304
02:29:53,200 --> 02:29:57,920
founding prophet, and you can't.
Brigham Young wasn't perfect.

2305
02:29:58,000 --> 02:30:00,000
And I've heard you say he's not
your God.

2306
02:30:00,040 --> 02:30:04,320
We know that.
But he was unquestionably

2307
02:30:05,160 --> 02:30:07,960
history vindicates this.
He was the man for the job.

2308
02:30:09,000 --> 02:30:12,440
He was the prophet for that time
period.

2309
02:30:12,920 --> 02:30:15,200
Look here, here's what I'll say,
right?

2310
02:30:15,320 --> 02:30:18,640
And I'm going to tie this back
to to to Nibley.

2311
02:30:20,440 --> 02:30:24,040
There is a big push right now
among some thought and

2312
02:30:24,040 --> 02:30:27,960
Mormonism.
I'm looking at you, the DOC

2313
02:30:28,240 --> 02:30:32,000
crowd who wants to unhinge from
Brigham Young.

2314
02:30:33,840 --> 02:30:39,520
You cannot do that.
Brigham is second only to Joseph

2315
02:30:39,520 --> 02:30:45,720
Smith, in my estimation, for the
continued success of the

2316
02:30:45,720 --> 02:30:50,200
Restoration.
If you if you unhitch from

2317
02:30:50,200 --> 02:30:52,640
Brigham Young, you know what you
don't have.

2318
02:30:53,200 --> 02:30:59,000
You do not have, quite frankly,
ceilings as we know them today.

2319
02:30:59,440 --> 02:31:00,880
Yep.
Plural.

2320
02:31:00,880 --> 02:31:04,440
Or or or.
Monogamist, right, because they

2321
02:31:04,440 --> 02:31:07,880
weren't expounding DNC 132 in
Nauvoo because it was too

2322
02:31:07,880 --> 02:31:10,960
dangerous.
It's only in the salt in the

2323
02:31:10,960 --> 02:31:14,000
Utah period where that comes
into focus and becomes Canon.

2324
02:31:14,480 --> 02:31:18,560
Well, and Joseph Smith, and
we've talked about this, who

2325
02:31:18,560 --> 02:31:23,240
realized that the end game, the
the ultimate goal of the

2326
02:31:23,240 --> 02:31:26,360
restoration was the salvation of
all mankind through vicarious

2327
02:31:26,360 --> 02:31:29,360
works.
And he entrusted one person.

2328
02:31:29,880 --> 02:31:33,640
Yep, with that at the end. 1
Systematize and organize the

2329
02:31:33,640 --> 02:31:36,200
endowment.
Yeah, that was finish it.

2330
02:31:36,720 --> 02:31:38,520
Finish it.
It is not.

2331
02:31:38,920 --> 02:31:41,200
He's still it is not finished.
It's not organized.

2332
02:31:41,480 --> 02:31:43,200
Finish it, Brigham.
Yep.

2333
02:31:43,280 --> 02:31:44,960
And he did.
Yep.

2334
02:31:45,400 --> 02:31:48,720
And then when it comes, let me
tie this back to Hugh Nibley.

2335
02:31:50,320 --> 02:31:54,680
Just like you can't unhinge from
Brigham, I don't think you can

2336
02:31:54,680 --> 02:31:59,080
unhinge from Nibley when it
comes to the scholarly pursuit

2337
02:31:59,080 --> 02:32:02,560
of Mormonism.
Certainly we all feel this in

2338
02:32:02,560 --> 02:32:06,120
our core.
But as I think we'll see next

2339
02:32:06,120 --> 02:32:11,400
time, Nibley's teachings have
permeated all of Mormonism in a

2340
02:32:11,400 --> 02:32:17,160
way that, quite frankly, is on
par with many of the past

2341
02:32:17,160 --> 02:32:18,560
prophets of the rest.
That's true.

2342
02:32:18,760 --> 02:32:25,840
And we don't even understand the
full the the full consequence is

2343
02:32:25,840 --> 02:32:28,560
that because we don't know what
his anonymous teachings is an

2344
02:32:28,560 --> 02:32:32,880
anonymous research was right,
but that we know that that has

2345
02:32:32,880 --> 02:32:36,880
informed the church leadership
because they asked that of him.

2346
02:32:36,880 --> 02:32:38,680
That's amazing.
Yep.

2347
02:32:39,200 --> 02:32:43,920
And the integral part, and the
whole trying to unhitch from any

2348
02:32:44,080 --> 02:32:47,920
character in your past, whether
they're good or whether is evil,

2349
02:32:49,680 --> 02:32:51,360
is of the devil.
Yep.

2350
02:32:51,840 --> 02:32:55,960
Section 93 makes As for anything
more or less truth is the

2351
02:32:55,960 --> 02:32:58,320
knowledge of things as they are,
as they were and as they are to

2352
02:32:58,320 --> 02:33:01,040
come.
Anything more or less than this

2353
02:33:01,040 --> 02:33:03,920
is the spirit of that evil.
One of the devil who is a liar

2354
02:33:03,920 --> 02:33:05,360
from the beginning.
Yep.

2355
02:33:05,520 --> 02:33:07,880
So when you revisionist history
is of the devil?

2356
02:33:08,320 --> 02:33:09,560
Yep.
Absolutely.

2357
02:33:10,320 --> 02:33:12,680
People ignorant of the history
are doomed to repeat it.

2358
02:33:14,360 --> 02:33:18,920
Was Brigham Young a racist?
Yeah, far less than anybody of

2359
02:33:18,920 --> 02:33:21,320
his time.
Less of a racist than Abraham

2360
02:33:21,320 --> 02:33:22,600
Lincoln, even, believe it or
not.

2361
02:33:22,920 --> 02:33:24,800
Yep.
Yep.

2362
02:33:24,880 --> 02:33:26,560
Boy.
But he was a good man.

2363
02:33:27,120 --> 02:33:31,320
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, people would look at us.

2364
02:33:31,320 --> 02:33:33,360
What kind of a monster was that
Dave guy?

2365
02:33:33,720 --> 02:33:36,360
Oh, Dan Peterson about a clown,
Right, dude.

2366
02:33:36,360 --> 02:33:38,200
Years from now.
We're.

2367
02:33:38,640 --> 02:33:41,880
Trying to do good things right.
If, if, if we make it that far

2368
02:33:41,880 --> 02:33:46,560
right, I have no doubt my my
great grandkids will be like the

2369
02:33:46,560 --> 02:33:52,560
old man was a savage right of
that I have no doubt.

2370
02:33:52,560 --> 02:33:58,000
But dude, this was fun.
I think people are going to be

2371
02:33:58,000 --> 02:34:01,680
super stoked for next week's
when we we get into the

2372
02:34:01,680 --> 02:34:04,120
teachings.
I have to I'm scared.

2373
02:34:05,400 --> 02:34:06,920
I'm more, I'm more scared for
this.

2374
02:34:07,640 --> 02:34:10,840
Well, here's the other thing.
I know how many people.

2375
02:34:10,840 --> 02:34:15,800
I don't know exactly how many,
but I know people Revere the

2376
02:34:15,800 --> 02:34:20,040
work, the life of Hunibley for
the same reasons I do and then

2377
02:34:20,040 --> 02:34:23,280
some.
And yet here I am.

2378
02:34:24,600 --> 02:34:27,000
Hey, what is it though?
What's it saying?

2379
02:34:27,840 --> 02:34:30,240
Fools rush in where angels spear
to tread.

2380
02:34:30,400 --> 02:34:32,440
Yeah, yeah.
Ken Peterson.

2381
02:34:32,440 --> 02:34:37,040
He's going to try and introduce
nineteen 10,000 pages of the

2382
02:34:37,040 --> 02:34:41,120
teachings of Unibli, but I think
I have a good sampling.

2383
02:34:41,120 --> 02:34:46,920
I'm super excited because Oh my
goodness, 19 volumes in that

2384
02:34:47,360 --> 02:34:50,280
every volume is utterly unique.
Yep.

2385
02:34:50,840 --> 02:34:54,560
Which shows the breadth of his
genius and his diligence.

2386
02:34:54,560 --> 02:34:59,880
And wow, it is so.
It's super fun and funny.

2387
02:34:59,880 --> 02:35:02,480
It was so funny.
Yeah.

2388
02:35:03,240 --> 02:35:04,800
It'll be awesome.
Good stuff.

2389
02:35:05,600 --> 02:35:07,720
All right, man.
I'll see you next week.

2390
02:35:08,360 --> 02:35:09,520
Thanks, Dave.
All right.

2391
02:35:09,520 --> 02:35:42,680
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2392
02:35:42,720 --> 02:35:44,120
Renegade podcast.