Episode #140: Dave Goes To Institute W/Michael Ness

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Have you ever wondered what a
Mormon Fundamentalist Institute

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class would look like?
Well, today you're going to get

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a sample of that.
Michael Ness is beginning in

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class on the Old Testament, and
he agreed to come on the podcast

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and run through his first lesson
on Genesis and the creation.

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Now, what ends up happening
through our conversation is that

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we dive way deep into some
pretty heavy stuff.

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We talk about the Adam God
Doctrine, early apocryphal

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works, the ancient Egyptian
books of the Dead and breathing,

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and much, much more that is
guaranteed to blow your mind.

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Now if you're interested in
seeing Michael's class live,

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reach out to me and I can hook
you up with that link.

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Now strap in for some really
mind blowing deep doctrine on

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this episode of the Mormon
Renegade Podcast.

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So a few weeks back I told you
about a new online merch store I

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was putting together and that I
would let you know as soon as

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that was up and running.
Well, after a few weeks of

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working on designs and testing
it out personally, we're ready

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to launch.
So if you go to

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mormonrenegade.com and click on
the Renegade supply button in

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the top right of the landing
page or click the link in this

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episode's show notes, you'll see
that we have 16 items right now

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that you can choose from.
We have shirts, hats, bags,

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cups, and water bottles all with
the Mormon Renegade logo, as

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well as a couple other designs
that I think you'll find really

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funny and maybe even one where I
take a slight shot at BYU, But

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you should definitely go check
that out.

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Now, this is just the beginning.
In the coming weeks, more

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designs and styles will be
available for purchase.

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Now all the proceeds I get from
this are going to go right back

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into the podcast.
So head on over to

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mormonrenegade.com and press the
Renegade Supply button or click

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the link in this episode's show
notes and get yours today.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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We're back at it again.
I think I'm going to title this

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series Gospel Doctrine for.
Fundamentalists.

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I was, yeah.
It's, I was thinking some sort

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of play on words or something
like Brigham Young Academy.

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If it was, you know, if the
church never signed the

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manifesto or you know, or it's
this is basically the institute.

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Did you ever go to institute at
all when you were?

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In No, no, so like when I joined
the church, like I was already

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in love with my wife, right?
And and the Bishop, I mean his

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credit shout out to Bishop
Atkinson.

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The dude was stellar when I
first came in, just an old

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country guy, I mean, straight to
the point, had had lived in this

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little community forever.
And he was like, yeah, you

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shouldn't go on a mission.
OK.

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And I was like, but I thought
everybody was supposed to.

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He's like, no offense, but
you're going to kill your

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companions.
Like you're, you're a little

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rough around the edges still.
And you're you, you don't have

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time for a lot of BS and you're
not going to do well on a

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mission.
You should just stay home and

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get married and we'll get you
where you need to be.

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The big thing is, is let's get
your ordinances done.

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So he he was a good Bishop.
Right.

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And that's that that is more
important ultimately is, is the

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raising a family and getting
your ordinances, it's a higher

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calling.
Yeah.

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And, and I don't know if it was
necessarily inspired, right, but

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like the first calling I had was
a state missionary, right?

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So I think he honestly tried to
get me some sort of experience,

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but he was right.
Like I'd go pick up the elders

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and I'd ride in the car and I'd
be about 15 minutes into it and

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I'd be like, I'm gonna hurt one
of them.

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I'm, I'm gonna absolutely hurt
one of them, right?

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Not that they were bad kids.
It was just, but I was a weird

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18 year old too, right?
I mean, after my old man passed,

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I grew up really fast And so
life was a little different for

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for me.
So I was, I was a little bit

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more mature than your normal 18
year old.

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But you never went to any
institute classes.

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They probably didn't offer any
where you were at the time,

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maybe.
No, they had.

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Institute classes at at the
college I went to.

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But dude, I was working two jobs
while I was in college.

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Fair enough.
I didn't have time for that

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crap, right?
I mean, I was like, I, I had a

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pregnant wife at home.
I was working for a surveyor

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part time, working at a grocery
store part time and going to

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school full time.
So I I had no time for any.

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See, the the reason I bring up
institute is I was when I was

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going to BYU and in the church,
so I was 10, I was going for

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education.
I was going to be a teacher and

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I was I was going with
institute.

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But so this is like the stuff
Michael Ness would have been

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excommunicated for if he had
taught Institute.

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Nice, nice, nice, nice.
So.

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So when you so yeah, I guess so
could.

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Did you go to any college before
you went on your mission?

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I did, and I was not interested
in the gospel at that point at

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all.
Really.

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No, not at all.
No.

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You were just.
Graduated high school and then I

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decided to go to University of
Montana for a semester and just

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the college experience, I didn't
have a plan at all.

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I and I was toying with just
creative writing and maybe being

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an author, OK, you know, And
then I don't know.

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I don't know, I didn't have a
plan and then I stopped going to

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college and a lot of other
things happened and there was a

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lot of experiences we can get
into if we want, but I don't, I

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don't know.
But in any case, started

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studying the gospel again,
decided I like this and decided

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to go on a mission and I didn't
go.

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And so I went, I, I left on the
mission and I didn't go to

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college again until after I got
back.

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But and but there were institute
classes.

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I took it in Tacoma, WA before I
moved to Rexburg.

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And yeah.
So that's just, you know, it's,

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it was free.
You just show up and got you be

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there, you know, but it's
heavily correlated now.

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I think if you or if you
probably get into some places in

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Idaho, Utah or Arizona, you'll
probably have more educated

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teachers that want to get into
deeper things and have been

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doing it for their career
instead of just like they do

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this as a calling and the church
on the side, you know, kind of a

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thing like your Hugh Nibley's
and other people.

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And Mike Day, I think was one.
I don't know if you've ever

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watched any of the podcasts with
Stick of Joseph or or Ward

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Radio.
You know, I, I, I've been

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meaning to look at those.
I just haven't had time.

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Highly recommend.
I love Mike Day.

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I think he's an it was an
institute teacher or it is maybe

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still, I don't know if that was
a job or was it calling or, but

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apparently he did a really good
job of it.

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And in any case, the material he
brings out in the podcasts with

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with the stick of Joseph and
Word Radio have been phenomenal.

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OK, All right.
Wow.

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That's good to know.
So why don't we explain here

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what we're doing?
Exactly.

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So I was recently, like a month
ago or so, approached by a

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sister in the community and I
don't remember this

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conversation, but she she came
up to me in church and said, I

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overheard a conversation that
you had with my cousin that you

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are fairly familiar with the Old
Testament.

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I was wondering if you'd like to
do lessons, Old Testament

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lessons here.
And I said yes, yes, I would.

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And then we started talking
about that.

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And so we're going to start that
next month.

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And I've been doing my lesson
plans for my studies, and I'm

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really excited.
And then, you know, I was

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telling you about that and
trying to get you there.

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And you're like, feeling
jealous, like, why don't we do

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this on a podcast?
And I thought about that for

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maybe an hour or less.
And then I texted you back and

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said, yeah, we can do.
That we can do that we.

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Can do that.
We'll, we'll do the, you know,

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the preview an audience of one
that then goes to 10,000 people

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and you know, and you know,
preliminary practice for me to,

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to warm up.
Right, Well, why wouldn't you

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want to like practice in front
of 10,000 people?

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Yeah, that's right.
Instead of an audience of maybe

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20 people.
That's for rookies.

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What we're gonna do here is
something far better.

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Well, you realize you do the Old
Testament, you're gonna have to

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then go to the New Testament,
right?

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Oh, that would no, I don't, but
I mean, not that I wouldn't want

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to.
I just, I just have other

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projects.
But and this is a this is a

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project.
If we do the whole Old

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Testament, that is the majority
of the scriptures right there.

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And and I don't know how that's
all gonna play out.

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That's still in development.
But I love the scripture.

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I love the New Testament too.
It was the first thing after I,

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after I got my testimony of the
gospel at 19, after reading the

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Book of Mormon and I entered the
MTC, the first thing I started

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doing was reading the the
Gospels, you know, read Matthew,

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Mark, Lutheran, John, right.
And to familiarize myself with

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that.
And I was going to Minnesota and

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everyone that I thought there
was practically Protestant.

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They were Lutheran.
They were Lutheran.

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So you gotta, you gotta speak
the language.

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You gotta know.
Yeah.

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And I got trounced once I was
six months out in the mission

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field and, you know, got into it
with this one guy who overheard.

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We were, we were doing a lesson
at a like, you know, like a

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Barnes and Noble where they have
like the Starbucks section.

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Like we were doing a lesson
there with a, with a lady.

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And he was just at the Starbucks
having a coffee and was

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eavesdropping.
And he like ambushed us after in

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the parking lot as we were
walking back to our car.

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And he, he gave me a pretty, I,
I just didn't know how to

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respond because it was basically
like you're teaching a false

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gospel.
He he mentioned polygamy.

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I don't recall details at this
point.

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Yeah, but starts quoting stuff
like Paul says that if an Angel

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comes to you preaching contrary
to what we've given, you know,

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know that it's, it's not true.
Or, you know, in Deuteronomy and

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Revelations, he who adds to this
book, let him be cursed, you

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know, and has all these
penalties and, and all this

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stuff, and he just bombs me.
And I really had no way to

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defend it.
And I went home that night and

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was like, that's never going to
happen again.

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And I, I mean, I already like
the scriptures don't get, you

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know, but I, I started in the
Old Testament and read as much

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as I could throughout the rest
of my mission, you know, and I

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had already made a deal with the
Lord before that, you know, I, I

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asked him because I was, I was
an active in my teenage years.

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And so I felt really slow
getting into the mission field.

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Like I feel like I'm just slow,
like I, I was not applying

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myself.
And so I'm kind of at a

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disadvantage in my learning
curve.

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And so I told the Lord I will
study harder than any other

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missionary if you allow me to be
a good teacher, nice.

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And to be able to recall and,
and do things, you know, be able

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to act in that role.
And he's richly blessed my life

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as a result of that.
That's awesome.

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That's awesome, you know, And as
much as we all hate to admit it,

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there's value to getting your
ass kicked once in a.

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While that's true, no, it's
absolutely true.

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I mean that, that if, if you
are, if you're someone who hates

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it, like I've said this before
and I truly mean it.

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I hate losing more than I love
to win and I love to win, right.

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And so when, when I lose, that
festers, right?

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And I and I'm, I'm breaking down
tape or whatever I got to do to,

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to get better at whatever it is
I'm doing.

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And, and there is value in
having it handed to you once in

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a while because it, it grows, it
keeps you hungry for sure.

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Yes.
So where we starting at?

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So in the beginning, in the
beginning, so starting with

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Genesis, we're not going to like
we are going to touch on

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Genesis, but before we like dive
in, I just want to so I never

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00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:07,880
went to college for I I'm not, I
never got a degree theology,

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00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,640
right.
I didn't go to study in the

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00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,880
college to study the Bible.
Get a degree about biblical

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00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,680
scholarship if I'm not.
Mistaken.

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00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:17,520
There's an ordinance that used
to say something about, yeah,

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getting a degree in college and,
and so.

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I'm not teaching this from the
perspective of like I, I believe

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in being severely scholarly and
analytical in a faithful sense,

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but I'm not preaching or
teaching from what the world

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00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,680
says, critical thinking or
critical scholarship.

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I read a lot of those things
because I like you're saying

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like it helps you, you know, it
helps you learn and grow to have

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the, it's not always an
opposition, but it's, it's just

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you got to feed your brain in
your mind.

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But in any case, the whole
preface of this is I'm not

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teaching from that perspective.
I for the last 10 years of my

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life, I have been a student of
the restoration.

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And so I am teaching the
Scriptures and the Old Testament

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00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,120
through the lens of the
restoration.

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We are going to talk and quote
heavily on commentary given by

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the brethren, the start of the
restoration on how to interpret

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the Scriptures, how to interpret
Genesis, the Old Testament in

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00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,200
general.
Those are the lenses I believe

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that we need to start with,
right?

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And so the first thing that came
into my mind is, OK, well, if

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we're talking about in the
beginning.

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In the.
Beginning, it really starts

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00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,040
before the creation of the
earth, right?

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00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,400
Yeah, we have the Grand Council.
So we got to start there in the

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Grand Council or, or along those
lines.

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That's where we start.
OK Joseph Smith said something

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along the lines of I'll just
read them actually.

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00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,280
So this is verbatim as it was
recorded.

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00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,160
He said everlasting covenant was
made between 3 personages before

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00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,480
the organization of this earth
and relates to their

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00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,520
dispensations of things to men
on the earth.

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These personages according to
Abraham's record.

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00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,240
So that's scripture, right?
He's quoting scripture.

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00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,800
According to Abraham's record,
these personages are called God

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the 1st, the Creator, God the
second the Redeemer, and God the

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third, the witness and testator.
OK, so that sounds like the

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00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,600
Godhead, father and son, Holy
Ghost, right?

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Where does it say that?
In the book of Abraham, dude,

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I'm not sure it doesn't, right?
It says it's in Abraham's

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00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:23,320
record, right?
So interesting tangent I was, I

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00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,440
was shown by one of my home
teachers in this period of time

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00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,480
when I was coming back to the
gospel and on my mission, it was

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00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,520
probably on my mission actually,
because we emailed he said

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00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,880
something that he quoted a book
to me in an e-mail from John G,

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00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,640
the guy who wrote some stuff on
the book of Abraham.

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00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,400
He actually.
Did a really good job in

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00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,360
defending the Book of Abraham.
He said that.

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00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:49,600
We are missing 7575% of the Book
of Abraham.

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00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,920
Yeah.
And in addition to that, in the

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00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,160
in the papyri, there were, and
we're going to talk about the

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00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,120
papyri a lot later.
There was also something that

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00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,600
some people have thought the
book was going to be titled The

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00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,960
History of Joseph of Egypt.
Oh.

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00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,760
Wow, so there.
Was going to be a book about

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00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,440
Joseph of Egypt too right in the
brass plates quote him.

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00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,520
Lehigh quotes the brass plates
in the Book of Mormon.

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00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,160
It's, it's also quoted in the
Joseph Smith translation as, as

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00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,120
Joseph Smith's revising the,
the, the Old Testament and we

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00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:18,880
were going to get more right,
right.

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00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,400
So somewhere in Abraham's record
in the 75% we don't that's

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00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,600
fifteen additional chapters.
By the way, these we have 5

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00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,440
chapters that was gonna be this
here was gonna be talked about.

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00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,200
So the Godhead father son, the
Holy Ghost.

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00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,040
OK, great.
Starting off there and that.

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00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:36,640
Was Joseph that said that the
Joseph?

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00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:42,200
Smith said that right.
He also said in 1839, June or

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00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,840
July, he said the priesthood was
first given to Adam.

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00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,520
He obtained the First Presidency
and held the keys of it from

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00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,320
generation to generation.
He obtained it in the creation

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00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,960
before the world was formed.
He had dominion given him over

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00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,040
every living creature.
He is Michael the Archangel

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00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,600
spoken of in the Scriptures.
OK, so we have the Godhead and

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00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,720
being delineated before the
foundation of the world by

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00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,000
everlasting covenant.
And then Michael's put in the

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00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,120
First Presidency.
And I would ask First Presidency

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00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,520
of what?
Probably the formation of the

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00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,040
earth, right?
I mean the creation Godhead.

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00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:21,960
I would.
Say the Godhead, you know that

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00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,000
is you tie those two quotes
together.

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00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,960
I don't I don't know of any
other statements of Adam being

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00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,480
in a forum as the as the holding
the keys of the first

310
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,520
Presidency, which I'm assuming
that means president of it and

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00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,120
not just a counselor, right?
You know, the only presidency

312
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,920
I'm aware of refers back to this
everlasting covenant was made

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00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,800
between 3 personages before the
organization of the Earth.

314
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,800
And Adam held the keys of it
from generation to generation.

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00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,400
He obtained it in the creation
before the earth, the world was

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00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,480
formed.
So that's a pretty good

317
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:53,520
sandwich, right?
Yeah.

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00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,120
You know.
Little bit Adam got in there, so

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00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,400
no.
We're going to be talking about

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00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,840
that a lot because this is,
again, we're talking about in

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00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,680
the beginning from a restoration
point of view.

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00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:08,800
And I believe, and I generally
take what the brethren said in

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00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,480
the early restoration at face
value.

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00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,720
Yeah.
For example, when Brigham Young

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00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,520
gave his Discourse on Adam God
in 1852, he ended his remarks

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00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,400
before segueing off to another
subject.

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00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,440
But when he revealed that
doctrine, he said, you have read

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00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,480
the things in the that I have
explained to you tonight in the

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00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,080
Bible, but you did not
understand them, right.

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00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:33,360
Do you remember that?
Yep.

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00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,920
So wouldn't it be our job to
take up the challenge of finding

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00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,040
where could be that?
If, if that is true, and I think

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00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,400
that at face value, then Adam
God is in the Bible.

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00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,240
And you've done podcasts on that
already.

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00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,520
And so we might tread over some
familiar ground there, but he

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00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,080
it's there.
And it behooves us to to take up

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00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,080
the challenge and see where
that, where, where is that in

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00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,360
the Bible?
So we're gonna do that today.

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00:17:58,480 --> 00:17:59,720
Nice.
Because it's in the beginning.

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00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,200
Like not every Old Testament
lesson that I do is gonna be on

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00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,000
Adam God, because it's but when
we're dealing with the creation,

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00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,880
which like the key figure is
Adam, we gotta talk about it.

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00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,800
Also going to Abraham's record,
we will the portion that we do

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00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:20,360
have, it says that in chapter 3,
it says, and there stood one

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00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,360
among them, which was the
spirits and the intelligences in

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00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:25,960
the in the grand in the council.
As it, you know, Abraham says,

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00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,000
I, I saw all the intelligences
and I saw the grand council,

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00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,280
right.
And there stood one among them

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00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,480
that was one that was like unto
God.

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00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,720
And he said unto those who were
with him, we will go down.

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00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,480
That's a buzzword.
Yep, we will go down before

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00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,040
there is space there, and we
will take of these materials and

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00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,640
we will make an earth where on
these others made Well.

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00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,080
Do you know what one like unto
God do?

355
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,160
Do you know of any name that
that Michael?

356
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,040
Yeah, OK, Michael, one who is
like unto God.

357
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,280
Michael literally means.
Who is like God or like God?

358
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,200
Yep.
And and it's it's fascinating

359
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,280
and it's interesting.
I looked up like I love

360
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,400
etymology of words, which is
like how words develop.

361
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,760
They don't know how that word
developed or that name

362
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,560
developed.
It's a folk etymology where it's

363
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,240
like this is just what it means.
This is just like the associate,

364
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,840
this is just what it means.
It's just this, so this is what

365
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,600
this means.
And so maybe there's an older in

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00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,280
some older language or some
proto Hebrew or whatever that

367
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,160
you could have if some scholar
were to find how that name with

368
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,840
gets translated through Adamic
and to you know.

369
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,400
You.
Could find like what do the

370
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,800
roots mean right?
Whatever they don't know, but it

371
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,680
just means like unto God, but.
But everything we find it, it

372
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,480
started at that and it stayed
with that, right?

373
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,000
Right.
And so, OK, so is that Michael,

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00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,400
the Archangel that we see in
this grand council saying we

375
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,120
will go down and we will make an
earth that these may dwell?

376
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,280
And he's the one taking the
reins in that council.

377
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:00,720
It was.
That's what I'm seeing.

378
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,520
Yeah, that's what.
It that's what would make sense,

379
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,240
right, because he was installed
not just in the First

380
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,320
Presidency, but it sounds like
as president, right yeah.

381
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:14,800
And so essentially and and this
is one thing that I wish we had

382
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,680
kind of better language for
sometimes rather than president.

383
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:26,440
I feel like sometimes that's a
very colonial American kind of

384
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,000
word, right?
But it'll be fascinating when we

385
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,480
get some older records and, and
maybe there's a better term for

386
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:34,360
it or something.
Well, let's.

387
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,880
Let's get into some of that now.
I will, I, I think I have this

388
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,240
later, but we'll do it now.
Michael's called the Prince,

389
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,920
right a lot in Scripture.
And I've looked up the, the

390
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,760
roots for Prince, you know, in
language and it's Latin.

391
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,240
And the roots for Latin for
Prince in Latin is Primus, which

392
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,120
means first, that's all it means
1st.

393
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,280
And princeps is the other root
and it means chief or sovereign.

394
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,080
And so it's not like when we
think of medieval Europe, Prince

395
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:04,800
is like the son of the king,
right?

396
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,000
Right.
And it's like the heir and it's

397
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,760
the king is the king.
But that's not really.

398
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,400
What that word means, that's.
Not what that word means.

399
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,880
It means first chief and
sovereign.

400
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,480
Yeah.
So it's the highest.

401
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,880
It's the highest.
Wow, yeah.

402
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,920
At least.
In a relative to us sense,

403
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,600
right, right.
And so that fits with the first

404
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,840
presidency thing as well.
Another character shows up in

405
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,280
the Grand Council and they call
him one like unto the Son of

406
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,600
man.
Now I've heard some people

407
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,160
debate the other side of it.
No, the one like unto God would

408
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,720
be Christ and the one like unto
the Son of man would be Michael.

409
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:40,640
But linguistically that doesn't
really fit and nor does it

410
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:46,160
rhetorically with the context of
of Abraham chapter 3, because

411
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,200
it's when the one like unto the
son of man responds to the call,

412
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,120
who will we send?
He says here am I send me then

413
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:55,440
another.
The second says, no, here am I

414
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,280
send me.
Then the Lord says I will send

415
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,800
the 1st and the 2nd was angry
and kept not his first estate,

416
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,080
right.
So that depicts Satan and Christ

417
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,720
being debating rights, right?
The plans of salvation that they

418
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,760
were being offered.
So those and also one like unto

419
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,000
the son of man.
What did Christ call himself

420
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,880
more often than anything else
the son of man the Son of man

421
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,000
over 80 times in the New
Testament in the Gospels in the

422
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,440
Gospels 4 books over 80 times
Christ called himself the son of

423
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,360
man and shout out to to to to
Ben Schaefer.

424
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:35,360
He pointed out to to me once in
like Luke 22 or Luke 23, when,

425
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,240
when Christ is on trial to the
Pharisees or to the to the

426
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,440
Sanhedrin, sorry.
And they're asking him questions

427
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,560
and they they they ask him point
blanket, if you are the Christ

428
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,400
to tell us.
And Christ's answer was a little

429
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,320
roundabout, but he says here,
but he quotes Daniel Chapter 7

430
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,400
or alludes to it and he says you
know it it, you know, he

431
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,440
basically says, if I told you,
you wouldn't believe me.

432
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,240
But hereafter you will see me on
the right hand of power, you

433
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,320
know, and the the imagery in
Daniel is that the son of man

434
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,960
will be on the right hand of the
ancient of days, right.

435
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:16,400
And so they say, do you?
So their response is even more

436
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,200
telling.
They after Christ said that they

437
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,840
said, so they're not equating
Messiah and Son of God either

438
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,200
necessarily.
They ask him, are you saying

439
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,560
you're the son of God and which
is the ancient days, right.

440
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,440
And he says thou sayest, you
know, basically you said it, not

441
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,160
me.
And they said what need have?

442
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,360
We have further witnesses and
they rent their shirts.

443
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,240
Right.
And and and.

444
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,760
You know, often being crucified,
you know, so Christ was

445
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:54,200
condemned for teaching the the
Adam God doctrine, you know, you

446
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,840
know.
And and getting getting to a

447
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:04,480
point to where you understand
that right, not just what he

448
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,360
says.
But the.

449
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:11,480
Context and that surrounds it
right the the historical context

450
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,600
trying to put yourself in the
place of their understanding.

451
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:22,000
One of my favorites on this is
when Christ tells his disciples

452
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,800
if someone asks you to go with
them a mile go to right go

453
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,080
point.
Now, what's interesting about

454
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,200
that is when you look back in
history and I found this out,

455
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,520
excuse me, from listening to a
biblical scholar out of Yale

456
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,280
just on a YouTube video once.
And this scholar brought up that

457
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,120
during this time, Rome had to do
a fine balancing act, right?

458
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,000
They wanted everyone to
understand that they were under

459
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,640
Roman rule, but they didn't want
to be too oppressive because

460
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,480
they were smart.
They understood that if you're

461
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,160
too oppressive, you're gonna
have rebellion.

462
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,400
Well, that's that particular
statement is in regards to Roman

463
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,920
law.
Now Roman law said at any time

464
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:15,240
if you are a conquered subject
of Rome, they could a centurion

465
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,520
could be like carry my pack.
You had to carry it, but you

466
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,400
could only carry it a mile.
Sure.

467
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,720
Now if you were.
Found out as a Roman centurion

468
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,840
that you made someone carry it
over a mile.

469
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,480
That centurion would be flogged
and sent home.

470
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,920
OK so in in a weird way Christ
isn't just saying be passive.

471
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,520
What he's saying is oh I got
something for you.

472
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:44,960
Don't.
Trap em trap.

473
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,400
Em right if they're gonna.
Oppress you?

474
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,480
You lay a trap for me, right?
That's interesting, right?

475
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,080
It, it, it, it paints the savior
in a little bit different light,

476
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,800
right?
And, and, and he's, he's, he's

477
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,120
basically teaching nonviolent
resistance here, right, Right.

478
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:02,800
Like use their law against them.
The other one I find fascinating

479
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:08,200
is where where the savior says
be as wise as serpents but as

480
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,560
harmless as doves.
Yep, that fits that word.

481
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,240
Harmless doesn't translate
correctly.

482
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,400
OK.
It should be either pure or

483
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:18,760
innocent.
OK.

484
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,120
Well, now all of a sudden you're
not harmless anymore.

485
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:25,800
Right now you can be a little
spicy.

486
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,160
As long as this is OK.
Yeah.

487
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,200
Right.
And, and so it's those kind of

488
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,000
semantics, that kind of
historical context that I think

489
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,360
we really miss out on here.
And, and I think this is another

490
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,920
example of that where where we,
we find Christ essentially

491
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,840
teaching the Adam God doctrine.
Yes, right.

492
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,160
And and it's, but you're not
gonna get that unless you get

493
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,640
the context behind it.
Absolutely.

494
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,320
Absolutely.
And another allusion to the Adam

495
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,600
God doctrine with the Son of
Man, besides the Daniel 7

496
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,680
prophecies, the literal meaning
of, you know, Son of man in

497
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,120
Hebrew would be, you know, Ben
Adam, right, Son of Adam.

498
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,600
Yep.
You know, that's exactly what

499
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:08,680
that means.
Yep.

500
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,440
And so it's right there on the
wall.

501
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,800
Well, right.
And if Adam isn't God, OK, let's

502
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,080
just put this out here.
OK, If Adam's not God.

503
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,280
Is.
Christ then making any sort of

504
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,000
illusions that he's divine.
Right.

505
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,520
No.
No, he's just saying he's one of

506
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,200
Adam's posterity like the rest
of us.

507
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:33,280
Exactly.
Right.

508
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,520
Yeah.
And it some people might have

509
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,400
interpreted it that way.
I don't know, You know, was Adam

510
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,440
God doctrine underground like it
is today, You know, And so only

511
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,520
people who had ears to hear and
eyes to see saw it and heard it,

512
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,600
you know, and I don't know well
it.

513
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,240
Was part of that whole mysteries
of godliness thing right, I

514
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,480
think I think that's why Brigham
was very wise.

515
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,400
I shouldn't say Brigham Joseph
was was when when it was

516
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,640
revealed to Joseph.
There was that lecture right

517
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,200
Where at the veil that was just
an explanation of Adam God

518
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,680
right.
And if if that was a a mystery

519
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,760
of godliness to us today, I
would imagine it had been the

520
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,120
same thing back in Christ time I
think.

521
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,800
So too, Section 121 talks about
Thrones, principalities and

522
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,280
powers and whether there be one
God or many gods, these things

523
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,160
which have been hid from the
foundation of the world shall be

524
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,040
revealed.
You know, in this the last

525
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,080
dispensation of the fullness of
times, which I also think that

526
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,520
was like work for for the Adam
God option being revealed.

527
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,240
You know, to, you know, it's
that edging, that slight word.

528
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,840
And you know, we're going to
have some changes in our

529
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,840
understanding of whether there's
one or many gods.

530
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,720
You can't do you can.
I like there was a he was a

531
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,080
Bishop.
I think his name was Heber

532
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,440
Benyon.
We talked about him a little bit

533
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,480
on our in our last podcast
series on John W Taylor.

534
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,400
He said in one of his books,
which is like one of my

535
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,560
favorites.
It's like proto fundamentals

536
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,680
literature where he says the the
doctrine of the plurality of

537
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,200
gods and Adam God go hand in
hand and you can't do without

538
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,360
the other.
They they either they stand or

539
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,960
they fall apart, you know, and
so we're going to talk about

540
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,720
plurality of gods now because I
agree with Heber Benyon.

541
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,680
Joseph Smith said the Bible was
rendered by King James

542
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,800
translators quote in the
beginning God created the heaven

543
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,640
and the earth, but it read first
in the beginning, the head of

544
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,160
the gods brought forth the gods
or as others have translated the

545
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,080
head of the gods called the gods
together.

546
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,120
He also said in the very
beginning, the Bible shows there

547
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,360
is a plurality of gods beyond
the power of refutation.

548
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,640
It is a great subject I'm
dwelling on the word Elohim

549
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,440
ought to be in the plural all
the way through gods.

550
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,200
The heads of the gods appointed
one God for us.

551
00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:00,080
So when you understand the
plurality of gods and the heads

552
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,160
plural of the gods, not just the
head of the gods, There's some

553
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,280
people out there in the church
who are like, I, I think this is

554
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,480
heresy, to be honest.
But like the, it's a, the, the,

555
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,000
the coined term is kingship
monotheism, where basically

556
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,520
there's like there is one head
first God ever and all other

557
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,920
gods are under him.
I don't what do you where do you

558
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,840
stand on the genealogy of the
gods in question versus a a

559
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,400
first God?
I'm not sure.

560
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:29,440
Not sure.
I'm not.

561
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,120
Sure I haven't you're.
Making a safe call though, I

562
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,120
would.
I would have to say I I'm

563
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,880
probably lean the other
direction.

564
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,320
I don't think that there one
that's over all I I.

565
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,840
Don't, I don't know.
So something came to my mind

566
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,960
once and there is a paradox here
and I'm let's get that out of

567
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,920
the way, but I think a
entertaining in your mind a

568
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,920
paradox that there's a genealogy
that doesn't have a quite a

569
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:03,960
beginning in the way that we can
phrase it is easier for me to

570
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,800
swallow than the paradox of
there just wasn't one first God

571
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,640
had and how and he just came to
be and there's no explanation

572
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,080
for that either.
Right, right.

573
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,320
One thing when I was discussing
Adam God with someone that came

574
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,400
into my mind that there's a
maybe there's a fractal nature

575
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:28,080
in quorums where originally in
the 70s quorum, the first quorum

576
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,720
of the 70, every single seventy
was a president of another

577
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,400
quorum of 70.
OK.

578
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,800
And.
Again, OK, you're gonna run

579
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,120
into, OK, when was the 1st?
So with that paradigm.

580
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,240
But if that's true and there's
quorums where every God in that

581
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,840
quorum is a president of another
quorum, then you can have a big

582
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,800
stack of that goes back and
they're interconnected,

583
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,520
interrelated, but there's order
and there's structure, right,

584
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,000
going back and it preserves the
genealogy.

585
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,680
And, and, and to me, that's just
something that came out of my,

586
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,120
I'm not teaching that as truth,
but that it was interesting to

587
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,040
me that you could have something
like that and it could stack up

588
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,960
forever that way, you know,
Anyways, back to Joseph, he says

589
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,120
the heads of the gods appointed
one God for us.

590
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,240
Personally, I believe that would
be the council that's higher

591
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,200
than Michael appointed Michael
for us, right.

592
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,360
And when you take that view of
the subject, it sets one free to

593
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,040
see all the beauty, holiness,
and perfection of the gods.

594
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,760
All I want is to get to the
simple naked truth and the whole

595
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,160
truth.
He also said, if Abraham

596
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,000
reasoned thus, so we're going
back to Abraham.

597
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,680
If Jesus Christ was the Son of
God, and John discovered that

598
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,840
God the Father of Jesus Christ
had a father, you may suppose

599
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,120
that he had a father also.
When?

600
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,120
Where was there ever a son
without a father?

601
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,680
And where was there ever a
father without first being a

602
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,360
son?
Whenever did a tree or anything

603
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,640
spring into existence without a
progenitor?

604
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,760
Everything comes in this way.
Paul says that which is earthy

605
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:04,880
is in the likeness of that which
is heavenly.

606
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,320
Hence, if Jesus had a father,
can we not believe that God had

607
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,920
a father?
Also, I despise the idea of

608
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,680
being scared to death as such a
doctrine for the Bible is full

609
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,920
of it.
So that's also back to Brigham

610
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,680
Young saying you've read that
these things that I've talked to

611
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,680
you about in the Bible, if you
didn't understand it.

612
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,080
And so he's, but he also says
there never was something that

613
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,960
came into existence that didn't
have a beginning, a begin or a

614
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:33,640
progenitor, an ancestor.
And so to me, yeah, I, I, I, I

615
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,760
take the plurality of gods
pretty far, but that's a very

616
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,080
strong doctrine for me.
And it's it's when I hang my hat

617
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:45,320
on taking what we know and
applying it back to some of the

618
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,840
things we've discussed.
That quote from Abraham,

619
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,520
Abraham's record says God the
first was the creator.

620
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,040
That's really interesting to me
because in LDS terminology we

621
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,520
usually say Christ as the
creator.

622
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,960
But that can't.
Be Christ in this context, cause

623
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,840
the Redeemer is the second.
Yeah.

624
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,240
So they're, yeah, they, they
have to be separate.

625
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:06,680
They have to.
They have, they've been

626
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,560
disambiguated in that context.
And so there is a creator that's

627
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,360
not Christ, that is the first
God.

628
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,679
And so.
We learn.

629
00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:18,760
In holy places a lot about that
and so you have to choose either

630
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,159
Elohim, Jehovah or Michael.
Gotcha.

631
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,280
You know, being the creators,
so.

632
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,320
Let me let me play devil's
advocate here for a little bit.

633
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,120
Then what would you tell
somebody who would say, well,

634
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,880
what about in the Book of Mormon
where it seems to talk about

635
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,800
Christ being the Father and the
Son?

636
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,800
How do you answer that?
I would.

637
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,040
Say, go read section 84 where it
talks about how God was going to

638
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,639
restore the ordinances to bring
the whole House of Israel back

639
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:49,239
into the presence of God.
But they wouldn't.

640
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,840
And Moses tried to plainly teach
that to the people.

641
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,760
And so the priesthood was taken.
And without the without the

642
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,040
ordinances of the priesthood and
the without the ordinances and

643
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,560
the authority of the priesthood,
the power of godliness is not

644
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,480
made manifest to men in the
flesh.

645
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:10,840
And it also contained the keys
to the knowledge of God.

646
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,280
And so the keys to the knowledge
of God were removed from Israel

647
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,920
and Moses had to write things in
parables like Christ taught in

648
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,600
parables.
And so Adam, God, and we're

649
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,640
gonna get into that is hidden in
Genesis.

650
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,640
But what happens is because they
couldn't do that.

651
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,800
They were given a preparatory
gospel with Christ as the

652
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,480
mediator, and the covenant made
there was that Christ became

653
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,800
their God because they couldn't
get into the presence of God the

654
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,440
Father would, lest he smite them
in his wrath, as it says.

655
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,280
But but Christ says to the
Nephites when when he appears

656
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,600
bountiful, and he says, I come
not to do away with the law of

657
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,280
Moses, for I am the one who gave
it.

658
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,240
And so God the Father didn't
give the law of Moses.

659
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,200
God the Father wanted to give
the ordinances in the Holy Order

660
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,000
and the Melchizedek priesthood.
They couldn't get that far.

661
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,440
And so Christ was also on the
Temple Mount on the Mount Sinai

662
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,760
and gave the Law of Moses as as
a mediator.

663
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,920
And they covenanted for Christ
to be their God.

664
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,160
OK.
Now then, you're dealing with

665
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,920
hundreds of years later with
Christ as the Son of God gets

666
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,040
omitted from the Old Testament.
We have that problem.

667
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,440
And so you have the confusion,
right, of, of, of, of Christ

668
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,760
and, and, and God.
But to the Nephites who did know

669
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,120
better, Christ was still the God
that was nearest to them by

670
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,320
covenant, by covenant
relationship that they were

671
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,320
under because they were
Israelites.

672
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,360
OK, that's how I would answer
that.

673
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,280
No, that's good.
That's good.

674
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:51,680
It's the one I hear a lot.
OK, so God the creator, we

675
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,960
covered that.
We know, at least we're taught

676
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,080
in LDS theology that in the
grand council, God presented the

677
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,800
plan of salvation and Christ
accepted the role of, of of

678
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,000
Christ, right?
The one presenting that plan in

679
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,040
the book of Abraham is not he's
called the one like unto God.

680
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,560
He's actually the one presenting
the plan, right?

681
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,200
So that's Michael presenting the
plan, right?

682
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,680
If you really read it, that's
there.

683
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,360
He's appointed by, you know, as
a God for the rest of us by the

684
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,200
heads of the gods.
And on April 5th, 1844, in the

685
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,080
Council of 50, Joseph Smith
explained the meaning of the

686
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,320
word almond.
Now back up right?

687
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:40,640
Well, I, I was gonna say this
because I, I really want to pull

688
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:46,120
this apart because I, I think
that this, this has a lot, this

689
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:52,160
argument here is, is one that it
has to deal with some things.

690
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,840
And so let's go back to where to
where it, it's Adam that says,

691
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:03,520
here's the plan, right?
So often that plan has been

692
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,040
attributed to Christ.
OK, right.

693
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,600
Especially in L LDS schools of
thought.

694
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,160
What to you really points out
more than anything else that

695
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,240
this was Adam's plan or
Michael's plan and not the

696
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:24,400
Savior's?
Well, you run into paradoxes if

697
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,600
it's if Christ is the this is,
yeah, we got to unpack this so

698
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,720
people don't think very long or
deep about some things like

699
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,720
this, I don't think.
But if eternity is big, right,

700
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,240
theoretically, like if you were
to string a line from one point

701
00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:45,960
to another point, you know that
like represent like you couldn't

702
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:46,720
really do that.
You'd have to.

703
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,160
That line would have to stretch
and keep stretching both ways

704
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,360
forever.
And so for Christ to be the

705
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,240
savior of all creation ever and
be the creator of all creation

706
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:58,920
ever, he would have had to have
done it as a pre mortal being

707
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:02,360
and all other gods before him
would have had to have been

708
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,000
dependent on his birth and death
and resurrection on this earth.

709
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,720
Which like, can we point that on
an arbitrary point on that

710
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:12,320
string that stretches two ways
forever?

711
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:13,440
That's weird to me.
Yeah.

712
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,080
That's I can't comprehend them.
It makes no sense, you know.

713
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:22,760
And so I Christ to me can't be
the Redeemer for his father.

714
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,320
Right.
Doesn't make any.

715
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,440
Sense or for.
His Father or for his Father

716
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,520
they had to be, but they had to
be redeemed on the same plan,

717
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,440
right?
And so the plan wasn't Christ's

718
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,800
because it pre existed him.
OK, it had.

719
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,120
To because others God never
would have been able to become

720
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:43,400
God and so that means God had a
savior or he was the savior on

721
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,360
another earth.
Right.

722
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,320
And I don't have a stance on
that, but that's, I mean the

723
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,240
stance I have is either he was
or someone else was, but there

724
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:56,720
was a savior on another earth
for God or he was that savior

725
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,440
for his brethren.
And that's the only way the plan

726
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:05,480
of salvation works when you
apply it on an eternal scheme. 1

727
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,040
eternal round worlds without
end.

728
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,120
Yep, exactly.
And so it, it can't, you know,

729
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,240
we say Christ authored it.
We can say maybe play semantics,

730
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,280
say he he authors it relative to
us because he makes it possible

731
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,840
for us.
But it does.

732
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,760
These things are relative.
It's also like the Bible says

733
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,960
the very first words in the
beginning, John Taylor, when he

734
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,800
was on his mission to England or
somewhere else, I think was

735
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,080
talking to someone who is a
scientist and they were debating

736
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,040
the age of the earth.
And he was getting in the face

737
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,160
of John Taylor because he was,
you know, religious.

738
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,640
And, and you say, well, you, you
know, the science says that the,

739
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,320
you know, the earth is this and
you Christians believe that

740
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,520
you're 6 days or seven days old
or whatever.

741
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:53,200
And it's creation, right?
And John Taylor says.

742
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:55,560
Well, let's.
Go look at this.

743
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:59,160
And he asks him to read the
first words of Genesis in the

744
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,200
beginning.
And John Taylor says, if you can

745
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,360
tell me when in the beginning
was, I will tell you when, how

746
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,360
old the earth is.
Right, Right.

747
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,880
You know, because it's relative.
Yeah, it's still relative, you

748
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,680
know.
And so I, I hang my hat on on

749
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,120
that things that are absolute
can't seem absolute in their

750
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,000
language.
It's like section 19 where

751
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,400
Christ says my name is eternal
and endless.

752
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,720
But I never said that the
punishment of those you know who

753
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:31,600
don't obey my commandments will
be forever.

754
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,000
It's like this is endless
punishment because endless is my

755
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,800
name.
You know, OK, yeah, Nope.

756
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,120
That makes sense.
You.

757
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:46,960
Know and so that yeah but almond
do you know I'm I'm assuming you

758
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:48,160
know about an.
Almond.

759
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,920
Son Almond, Yeah, that's appears
in the Doctrine of Covenants.

760
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,200
Joseph Smith got a revelation in
1830 or 31, something like that.

761
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:02,280
It was never published, but it
was that almond was the name of

762
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,320
God in Adamic in the Adamic
language.

763
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,520
So no Elohim, no Jehovah, no no
Michael God was almond or that

764
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,040
was the word for God in the
language that Adam spoke was

765
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,080
almond.
That's super important.

766
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,800
We need to remember that for the
rest of this lesson.

767
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:22,640
Joseph Smith says the April
before he dies, he says the word

768
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:27,200
almond, which signifies the 1st
man or first God and almond

769
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,880
Christ signifies the 1st man's
son.

770
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,720
OK, OK, that makes sense.
And so first man, when you, you

771
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:38,080
can look in the scriptures
anytime that says the 1st man,

772
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,720
it's Adam, right?
It says the first God.

773
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:43,280
I don't believe in a first,
first, first God, right?

774
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,920
But if it's relative to us or
saying the first God of the

775
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:51,440
Godhead right is the first man,
then that's Adam as well.

776
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,120
Yep, Michael the Archangel as it
was revealed later to people

777
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,280
because they didn't you know,
Adam's posterity didn't know

778
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,240
that till later.
But almond was the name that

779
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:02,200
they used.
Let's.

780
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:08,920
Do this because there's been a
significant amount of dispersion

781
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:14,440
cast on Adam being our father
and God because he is called the

782
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,200
Archangel in the Old Testament.
Explain what an Archangel.

783
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:31,200
I would say I'm going to go to a
quote from WW Phelps to define

784
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:37,680
that.
That's what I would say because.

785
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,160
I feel like this is important,
right?

786
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,240
Because for so long the term
Angel, whether it's Archangel or

787
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:48,080
just Angel, has always been in a
position, a supposition, so to

788
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,720
speak, within the within
Christendom, that it was second

789
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,120
unto God, right?
That that they were under

790
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:02,520
somebody.
Else's it is reading biblical

791
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,480
scholarship.
I I was doing some of that this

792
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:05,840
last week to prepare for some of
this.

793
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:10,800
The the general consensus in
that world is that as a Greek

794
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:18,720
philosophy was introduced into
Judaism, it deanthropomorphized

795
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,640
God and made him more remote.
And so it's the philosophical

796
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,240
God that we're dealing with in
Christianity Today, which is

797
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,640
without form parts or passions,
right?

798
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,600
And so because God is now not
the God that Moses spake to face

799
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,640
to face and editors had to say
on the next page, but Moses

800
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,360
really didn't see him.
He saw a similitude when it said

801
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:40,840
on the same it was actually the
same page.

802
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,160
I think it says he saw it face
to face, right?

803
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,240
You know, but he's no longer
that God because other ideas are

804
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:50,920
winning the debate at that time.
And so because God is now

805
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,600
removed because you can't see
him or interact with him, they

806
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,640
had to have intermediaries with
God, right?

807
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,760
And so Michael, according to
scholars, was the invention of

808
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,000
and Gabriel, whatever.
I think that's later really.

809
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,560
But Michael becomes the chief
mediator almost in a Christ role

810
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,360
before Christ's time, right?
But Michael becomes the advocate

811
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:16,800
for.
You.

812
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,800
To God.
Right.

813
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,240
In.
Judaism, that's how that that's

814
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:23,680
how they say that that develops.
OK.

815
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,360
Because God got removed from
being personal.

816
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:28,880
Yeah, He.
Was no longer personal.

817
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:36,560
He was like sounds silly, dumb,
but when, when you look at at

818
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:43,280
the sectarian God right outside
the personage of Christ, you get

819
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,360
kind of a weird, almost Star
Wars Z force kind of a thing,

820
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,200
right?
I mean it, it really is nothing

821
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,000
personal, right?
It you know, they'll say things

822
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,400
like God is love and and they
really mean that, right, that

823
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,040
that he doesn't have parts,
passions or any of those other

824
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,640
things.
And and to me that always made

825
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:08,160
it feel somewhat impersonal.
Right, I had my first mission

826
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,880
president.
His wife was raised Catholic and

827
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,400
converted to OK to Mormonism.
And she, she said this all the

828
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:19,800
time to us elders and sisters.
And she said, when I grew up, I

829
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,240
thought God was just some big,
misty, floaty thing.

830
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,720
Yeah, that's all that I knew
about God.

831
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:27,360
And then I learned about the
gospel.

832
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,600
And I learned that he was
literally my father and had a

833
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,080
body.
And it was he was real.

834
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,600
He was something tangible.
And that was her paradigm

835
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:36,960
change.
And it just spoke truth to her

836
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,680
and because it is true.
But she always reminded us that

837
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,880
the rest of the Christian world
believes that God is an

838
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,200
impersonal and this big, misty,
floaty thing.

839
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,960
Yeah.
Yeah, but what's interesting is

840
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,880
that even.
Well, I'll let you finish up

841
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,600
there with so you.
You asked me about the

842
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:59,360
Archangel, Yeah, WW Phelps wrote
when he was in Kirtland, June

843
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,400
1835.
And the messenger and Advocate a

844
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,000
response to someone who's asking
about Michael and he says I am

845
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,840
truly glad you have mentioned
Michael, the Prince who I

846
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,960
understand is our great Father
Adam.

847
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,880
New light is occasionally
bursting into our minds of the

848
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,360
sacred Scriptures, for which I
am truly thankful.

849
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,960
We shall by and by learn that we
were with God in another world

850
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,880
before the foundation of the
world and had our agency, that

851
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,160
we came into this world and have
our agency in order that we may

852
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:33,280
prepare ourselves for a Kingdom
of glory, become archangels.

853
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,680
Even the sons of God, where the
man is neither without the woman

854
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,080
nor the woman without the man
and the Lord, A consummation of

855
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,400
glory and happiness and
perfection.

856
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,040
So greatly to be wished that I
would not miss of it for the

857
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,480
fame of 10 worlds.
So there's a lot there.

858
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,560
Oh yeah.
But he lays down the table that

859
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,480
we become archangels.
What do we?

860
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,520
But what do we promise to be
gods?

861
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,360
We promise to be gods, He says.
We will become archangels, and

862
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,360
an Archangel was defined as
being married.

863
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,440
That neither that the man is
neither without the woman, or

864
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,400
the woman without the man in the
interesting.

865
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,760
So.
An Exalted being right?

866
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:18,040
Right, And what's interesting is
that in my understanding, even

867
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:22,120
with in Catholicism, we get
bread crumbs of this right,

868
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,720
because when when Michael is the
patron St.

869
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:32,000
Of like doing battle with the
adversary, right?

870
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:33,600
Yes.
He is, but when?

871
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:39,040
You start looking at at Daniel,
at Revelation, who is it there

872
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:45,840
that says subdues Lucifer, say
God, God seduce him, subdues

873
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,080
him.
And so they're statues depicting

874
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,280
Michael subduing the adversary,
right.

875
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,120
There's bread crumbs of this.
Yeah, we're.

876
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,600
Gonna hit on a lot all over the
We're gonna hit on a lot of that

877
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,080
if we speed up, sorry.
My dad not not.

878
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:03,760
Your fault at all but your but
it's that that statement from

879
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,560
Phelps is 9 years before the
king followed this course.

880
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,360
See, that tells me Joseph's.
Yeah, he knew.

881
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,160
Joseph's Joseph already knows
this, right?

882
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,800
And it's.
Four years before the most

883
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,240
famous discourse on Adam and
being in the priesthood position

884
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:20,120
that we quoted from earlier,
that he obtained the First

885
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,640
Presidency and before the
creation of the world, Right.

886
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,040
So four years before that, nine
years before the king followed

887
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,920
discourse and the sermon of the
Grove on the plurality of gods.

888
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:33,360
And it, it's a lead into the
doctrine of exaltation that

889
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,440
you're going to be married as an
Archangel.

890
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:45,560
Yeah, Yeah, it's huge.
So maybe we'll skip that.

891
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:49,160
We'll touch that in the lesson
when you come to class.

892
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:53,360
And for those in Utah,
Missouri's not that far.

893
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,920
You can.
You can do that.

894
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,280
So I didn't want to draw
parallels between the book of

895
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,440
Abraham creation and the book of
Moses creation.

896
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:08,160
They're a little different and
one is more Christ centric.

897
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,440
You know, the book of Moses is
that it takes the perspective

898
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,960
like by the power of my only
begotten, I created these

899
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:17,240
things.
And you know, that's the

900
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:18,960
narrative.
That's the and perspective of

901
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,640
the creation.
Abraham's is well.

902
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,520
They the gods went and came down
and and did their work.

903
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,760
What would actually make sense
with what we were talking about

904
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,120
before, right?
Because by the time we get to

905
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,640
Moses time, especially up there
on the mountain, they've

906
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,680
rejected the higher stuff.
So now Christ becomes the

907
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,920
mediator.
Yeah, it makes complete sense.

908
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:45,280
I'm glad you tied that in.
There was a book I found or was

909
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,600
recommended to me, given to me
called The Blessings of Abraham

910
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:53,840
that I think shed some light on
the Christ centric narrative in

911
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,840
the eternal sense.
Because we already discussed how

912
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:01,680
Christ can't be the creator of
literally all worlds and how God

913
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,160
and also how Joseph Smith said
God the Father was the creator

914
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,480
or God the first was the creator
and Christ wasn't the creator.

915
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,680
Right.
So like, I'm, what I'm doing is

916
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,920
like finding way to segue and
and reconcile these things it

917
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,480
without, you know, you know, in
a, in a faithful and reasonable

918
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,560
way.
But in the, in the New

919
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:25,680
Testament, quick, quick sidebar,
John says in the beginning there

920
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:30,640
was the word and the word was
with God and the word was God in

921
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,320
Greek, which that's what it was
written in the, the word for

922
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:39,320
word is logos.
I, I have a, a good friend.

923
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,320
He was a, he wasn't a mission
companion, but I trained the

924
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,600
missionary that trained him.
And we're very close to this day

925
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,360
and he's taking Greek courses.
And I asked him about that and

926
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,960
he said you could spend your
whole life studying what logos

927
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,120
means and write dissertation
after dissertation after

928
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:57,560
dissertation for the rest of
your life.

929
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,640
And you're never gonna bully
figure out what that means.

930
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,600
Really.
Yeah, that's what he said to me

931
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,240
as far as the context of that
scripture and everything like

932
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:11,120
that.
But so logos does mean word,

933
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,280
like the the written word or
spoken word, but it also means

934
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,560
reason.
So, you know, I'm kind of like

935
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:25,680
thinking about this, pondering
on this, you know, and I'll just

936
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:26,720
read this and I'll come back to
that.

937
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:31,600
In Blessings of Abraham, they
quote some rabbinic tradition

938
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,760
kind of explanatory stuff, and
they say with the creation of

939
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:38,000
man, however, and with God's
blessing pronounced upon them,

940
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,160
God saw that his creation was
very good.

941
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:44,000
As to why it was now so, Genesis
itself offers no explanation,

942
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:48,080
but ancient rabbinic texts do.
The Genesis passage teaches that

943
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,240
the Holy One brought out all the
souls of the righteous.

944
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,160
The souls.
Of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and

945
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,440
their future descendants, the
souls of Israel, all they who

946
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,600
would keep God's law.
In this sense, the world was

947
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,120
created for the sake of Abraham
and his wife Sarah, which is

948
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,560
tantamount to saying that it was
created for the sake of Israel,

949
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,800
since they are the parents of
the people of Israel.

950
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,920
And more than a bit more than
being a mere beneficiary.

951
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,080
Abraham was actually a
participant with God in the

952
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:19,680
creation, according to the
Rabbi's.

953
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:24,120
God created God created the
world with Abraham, says

954
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,840
Rabbinic tradition.
What motivated God to undertake

955
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,720
this grand enterprise?
Tradition insists that he acted

956
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:36,240
out of has said a Hebrew word
whose meaning includes.

957
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,480
Quote.
Loving kindness and mercy, the

958
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,040
psalmist declares that the world
is built on has said, while

959
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:48,800
medieval Jewish scholars, Moses
ma'am Maomonides taught that all

960
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,600
being is an act of divine has
said for the universe has come

961
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,760
into existence only by virtue of
God's abundant grace or loving

962
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,800
kindness.
But another essential element of

963
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,840
God's has said is his loyalty to
the covenant, which apparently

964
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,080
was a factor even in the
creation, For tradition

965
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,920
indicates that it was then when
God first made a covenant with

966
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,520
Abraham in the beginning, right?
Such.

967
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:16,440
Traditions bear conspicuous
resemblance to at Abraham's own

968
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,120
writings and as restored in the
Book of Abraham, obviously, in

969
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,440
which the patriarch reports
being shown in a vision a vast

970
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,360
hope, vast host of pre mortal
spirits, among whom were many of

971
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,720
the noble and great ones.
And God saw of these souls that

972
00:54:29,720 --> 00:54:31,600
they were good and he stood in
the midst of them.

973
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,000
And he said these I'll make my
rulers so forth and so on.

974
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:40,400
And so I was thinking of logos
and the reason and the reason is

975
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,680
has said out of loving kindness.
So if it's true, as the rabbi

976
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,960
say, that Abraham was the reason
that the world was created for

977
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,320
the sake of the covenant, how
much more would it be that?

978
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,600
OK, let's insert Christ in there
for his behalf, for Christ's

979
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,080
behalf.
He's the reason.

980
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,320
And also us by extension were
the reason.

981
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,640
But we're all together.
But Christ was the reason, the

982
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:07,520
logos for the he was the reason
that was with God for creation,

983
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,480
right?
And so that's how I kind of

984
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,400
reconcile that God the Father is
the creator and yet Christ can

985
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:18,160
be the reason, the reason being
the creator.

986
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:24,360
OK, yeah, All right, into some
fun stuff.

987
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:26,680
Not that this hasn't been fun.
I was gonna.

988
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,600
Say when?
When did I miss the boring step?

989
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,840
If.
My phone doesn't die on me.

990
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:36,560
I thought I was trying to all
right, so I was.

991
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,640
Doing some parallel.
Structure comparisons between

992
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,120
the book of Moses and some other
things that I've been studying.

993
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:46,240
That's extra canonical Christian
scripture.

994
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,560
It's not apocrypha, although I
guess you could say it's

995
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,240
apocrypha.
But so let's read Moses 2 verse

996
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:58,240
one.
I am in the I am the beginning

997
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:01,600
and the end, the Almighty God,
by my only begotten, I created

998
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,720
these things.
Yeah, in the beginning I created

999
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:05,880
the heaven and the earth upon
which thou standest.

1000
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,880
In a.
Book called The Investiture of

1001
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:18,440
Michael the Archangel and this
is this takes place in so like

1002
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:23,480
the book of Moses is being given
to Moses on Mount Sinai as a

1003
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,520
response to his question.
Tell me by what reason these

1004
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,440
things are are made right, which
also fits with what we just

1005
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,160
talked about.
The reason, right in the the

1006
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,840
context for the investiture of
Michael the Archangel is the

1007
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,560
disciples are on the Mount of
Olives with Christ right after

1008
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,960
John the Baptist was killed,
right?

1009
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:44,840
And they're asking him
questions.

1010
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:51,960
And Peter asks basically what
Moses asks God tell us why, why

1011
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,360
these things are, you know, And
Peter asks Christ this.

1012
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,240
Christ tells Peter, first we
created heaven, then the angels.

1013
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,960
My father looked upon the whole
world we had created and he saw

1014
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:03,880
that he had found nothing that
would bless him.

1015
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,680
My father said to me, let us
create man in our image and

1016
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:15,480
likeness.
And so to me it's just it's

1017
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,160
really interesting that you have
a parallel between like the even

1018
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,960
to the the questioning the same.
It's the same set up, the same

1019
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:22,840
link.
And they?

1020
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,320
Dive into the creation and we're
going to get we're going to

1021
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,040
backtrack, we're going to come
back around to that.

1022
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,760
So that's the beginning of the
creation of Adam according to

1023
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,600
the the biblical narrative,
right, That you make him out of

1024
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,360
the dust of the earth or
whatever, right.

1025
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:39,680
Well, you know that that's
allegory.

1026
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:40,320
It is.
Yep.

1027
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:44,760
Brigham.
Young was pretty clear.

1028
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,000
He liked to say, yes, I believe
Adam was made from the dust of

1029
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,480
the earth, but not from the dust
of the earth, right?

1030
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,240
And actually, if you go to
Moses, I don't know how do you

1031
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,440
read this?
Moses, Moses, chapter 6, verse

1032
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,560
59, just like the first three or
four lines.

1033
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,680
I think you'll get it once again
once you see it.

1034
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:08,280
That by reason of transgression
cometh the fall which fall

1035
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,720
bringeth death in.
So in as much as ye were born

1036
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,720
into the world by water and
blood, and the spirit which I

1037
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:21,880
have made and so become a dust,
a living soul, Even so ye must

1038
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:25,160
be born itself there.
Though, So what does he define

1039
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:29,040
being made of dust as?
A living soul, but.

1040
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,000
Born of water, blood and the
spirit.

1041
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:36,840
Yep.
So if Adam was made of dust, God

1042
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,520
is saying I made you out of
blood.

1043
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,000
Water, procreation, right?
Yeah.

1044
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,560
Being made of the dust is
procreation, and it's defined

1045
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,320
right there in the book of
Moses, right Inasmuch as you

1046
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:52,120
were born into the world.
You know, and became of.

1047
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,960
Dust, a living soul.
So if Adam was made of the dust

1048
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,480
of another earth, he was born
into it on another earth, right?

1049
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,840
So, OK, this is gonna blow your
freaking mind.

1050
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:02,880
You ready for this?
Yeah.

1051
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,920
This is the beginning of the
highlights that are gonna get

1052
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,280
you hooked on my classes and
anyone else who wants to come.

1053
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,000
So we talked about.
So now we're dealing with our

1054
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,200
commentary on the on how Genesis
reads, right?

1055
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:16,760
We talked about Adam being made
from the dust, right?

1056
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:18,800
The next thing.
What's the next thing that

1057
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:23,320
happens?
Like in Adam's introduction?

1058
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:24,840
Yeah, in.
Genesis yeah, In Adam's

1059
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:29,800
introduction, he.
Is OK, so he's, he's made from

1060
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,640
the dust.
God says, you know, is it good

1061
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,120
that he's alone?
So he he next he gets married.

1062
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:38,280
So before that.
Though, well, he's already

1063
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,200
married, right?
Because he's gone, OK.

1064
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:41,800
Yeah, OK.
Yeah, but no.

1065
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:43,720
The breath of life, right?
Right.

1066
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,480
He gets the spirit breathed into
him.

1067
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:47,520
Have you ever thought about
that?

1068
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:54,920
Probably.
Not as deeply as I should have.

1069
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:59,400
It's huge.
OK, Moses, people like people.

1070
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:01,880
Brigham Young, actually, he
didn't know this, so it's not

1071
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:06,320
his fault for not making this
parallel, but he kind of made

1072
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,920
fun of the, you know, he'd say
stuff like, you know, if if God

1073
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,680
really did or if the Lord, you
know, using the ambiguous term

1074
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,560
if the Lord or Adam's Lord.
Had really truly made Adam out

1075
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,840
of clay of the earth and you
know and never put the breath of

1076
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,040
life in him.
He would have been been a Adobe

1077
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,720
to this day right you know and
he makes fun of the you know

1078
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:27,800
it's it's all this is all
allegory to him.

1079
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,920
He says yes, sure the Lord
breathed into out of his spirit

1080
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,080
the same as he breathed into you
your spirit right.

1081
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:35,600
That was the pretty much the
extent of Brigham Young's

1082
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,600
commentary on that.
And it's not wrong because it is

1083
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:44,720
allegory, but it's deeper.
And Moses definitely put that in

1084
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,760
there for a reason.
And it goes back to the fact

1085
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,080
that the keys of the mysteries
of God or the the the keys to

1086
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,320
the knowledge of God, according
to Section 84, were taken away.

1087
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:57,600
And he had to write things for
those who had eyes to hear, eyes

1088
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:04,080
to see and ears to hear in
ancient Egyptian religion, which

1089
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:05,680
Moses would have been acquainted
with.

1090
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:09,040
Absolutely right.
In fact, I don't even think

1091
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,840
Hebrew existed as a language at
this point, and scholars will

1092
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,560
actually tell you that they
don't think they did either.

1093
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,160
So the language that the
Israelites are coming out of

1094
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,560
Egypt with is Egyptian, right?
If.

1095
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:24,600
Not some older hold outs from
whatever language Syrian that

1096
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,640
they say, you know, Aramaic or
some proto Aramaic, you know,

1097
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,560
but they're gonna be speaking
Egyptian well and.

1098
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:34,120
It would make sense 'cause they
weren't always slaves, right?

1099
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,800
I mean, when they're there,
there's, there's a period of

1100
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,600
time when they're in Egypt where
it's kind of a safe haven and

1101
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,480
they're just citizens of Egypt.
Well, and.

1102
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,160
Lehigh's family knew Egyptian
and it was a tradition carried

1103
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,240
on, right?
You know, their whole family was

1104
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:53,080
keeping keeping a record, the
brass plates in that language,

1105
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:54,680
right?
And then they over time they

1106
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:56,560
added to it and changed it, they
said.

1107
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:01,160
But but yeah, they they kept
that hold over of Egyptian.

1108
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,760
Anyways, the reason that's
important is because when I got

1109
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:10,600
off my mission and I went to
Rexburg for school, there was a

1110
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:13,880
Deseret book right down the the
street from my apartment.

1111
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:15,560
And of course, I'm looking for
the good stuff.

1112
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:19,480
Give me some books to read.
And I don't even remember how

1113
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:23,520
much money I spent on this, but
it was Hugh Nibley's Joseph the

1114
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:27,760
the the message of the Joseph
Smith Papyri, the fattest book I

1115
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:30,000
own.
Like it's like it's, I have it

1116
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:31,280
in my car.
I should have brought it for the

1117
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,360
video but it's it's this it's
this tall and like this thick.

1118
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,920
Man and.
Basically, it's it's his

1119
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:47,200
commentary on everything that
that that's book of Abrahamish

1120
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:51,400
and what other antagonists to
the restoration have said about

1121
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,040
certain things.
For example, he prefaces the

1122
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:57,320
whole thing like even with LDS
scholars, He says some people in

1123
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:01,480
dialogue a few years ago made
the assertion that two fragments

1124
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,360
that we have leftover these two
little fragments, which we've

1125
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:09,680
identified as the the the whore
book of breathings, which Horus

1126
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,120
Horus book of breathings is the
text that Joseph Smith

1127
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:14,440
translated the book of Abraham
from.

1128
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:16,840
And he says Joseph Smith never
made that claim.

1129
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,920
First off, no, but we have OK,
we have we have these fragments,

1130
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:22,400
we've identified it.
They're fragments.

1131
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:25,560
But let's go look at an like we
have other texts that are

1132
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:30,400
essentially like we can see that
the parts that we have of this

1133
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,520
fragment, we can see a verbatim
in these other things.

1134
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,480
So let's assume that they're
reasonably consistent, right?

1135
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:42,800
And he gives in this book, like
the first section is the English

1136
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,560
like transcription of all the
ancient Egyptian and then the

1137
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,320
translation in in English that
we can read below it.

1138
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,360
And then the second part's like
all the subjects and commentary.

1139
01:03:55,240 --> 01:04:02,440
In any case, it is the ritual of
to prepare you to enter the next

1140
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:06,880
life, the book of breathings.
And so breathing the breath into

1141
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:11,080
the into Adam, right, right.
So drawing back to that, the

1142
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:17,160
breath of life was in these
ceremonies and it was to

1143
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,480
illustrate the resurrection,
the.

1144
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:26,680
Interesting, yes, and so.
Moses putting that in Genesis.

1145
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:29,000
Is.
Saying Adam is a resurrected

1146
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,200
being.
And I can read.

1147
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:36,320
Some of that here, yeah.
The text of the book, the, the

1148
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,080
the Book of Breathing says
beginning of the book of

1149
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,880
breathing, which Isis made for
her brother Osiris.

1150
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:45,560
And if you're familiar with
temple stuff, I probably

1151
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,320
shouldn't make specific you'll
but think of higher temple

1152
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:49,520
things.
You're gonna get some of this.

1153
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:53,080
Yep, Isis made for her brother
Osiris, which is also her

1154
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:54,120
husband, by the way.
Yep.

1155
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:56,400
Which Isis made for her brother
Osiris.

1156
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,400
So Isis made this book of
breathings.

1157
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:01,720
Yep.
Do you are you aware of the are

1158
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:03,520
you aware of the story of Isis
and Osiris?

1159
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:11,160
If I'm not mistaken.
Oh, ISIS kind of brings Osiris

1160
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:15,000
back after he's been killed and
like, yeah, Set, like, chopped

1161
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,920
him up even, and she's gotta go
retrieve the parts and pieces,

1162
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,480
so to speak, in this allegory
and put him back together and

1163
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,200
then bring life back.
Yeah, Yeah.

1164
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:27,440
Which?
Isis made for her brother

1165
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,840
Osiris, to make his spirit live,
to make his body lively, to make

1166
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:35,080
young all his members new so his
arms.

1167
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:36,760
Yeah.
To make alive.

1168
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:40,160
To make young, so that's
resurrection, right, That he

1169
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:43,360
might enter the horizon along
with his father raw to make his

1170
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,640
spirit appear in in glory in
heaven, that his body might

1171
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,200
shine as Orion in the womb of
the lower heaven.

1172
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:53,200
And to cause to happen the same
things for Osiris in

1173
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,040
parentheses.
You know, we have the candidate

1174
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:58,440
because you go through his proxy
for the gods, by the way.

1175
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:03,240
And you know, to cause to happen
the same things that I'm just

1176
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:04,640
talking about or that she's
talking about.

1177
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:08,440
For the candidate, the God's
father and the prophet of Amun

1178
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,320
Roth, king of the gods.
Hide it, hide it.

1179
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:15,080
Do not let any man read it.
It is beneficial to a man in the

1180
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:18,360
next World that he may live
again, having been proven true

1181
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:21,880
countless of times.
Speak the words hail, Osiris.

1182
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:25,040
Thy heart is pure.
Cleansed in thy front with

1183
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,040
washing thy back with cleansing
water.

1184
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,400
There had been performed for
thee a washing in the court of

1185
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,680
GEB.
Thy members have been purified

1186
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,160
in the court of Shu.
Thou art about to behold Raw in

1187
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,880
his coming down Atom in the
evening.

1188
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:44,840
Ammon is at thy side.
So you have three gods here.

1189
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:49,960
Yep, that should be before you
have Raw coming down atom Ammon

1190
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:57,520
or Ammon bestowing upon thee the
candidate, the breath of life,

1191
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:04,600
while Petah forms the body that
thou mayest enter the horizon or

1192
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:07,600
the heavens in company with raw
that thou mayest receive the

1193
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:10,920
spirit along with Osiris.
So you have three gods breathing

1194
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:14,280
into your your body the breath
of life, while the talk creates

1195
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:15,600
your body out of dust.
They're.

1196
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:21,160
Gonna resurrect you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1197
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:25,160
And there is a lot of temple
symbolism there.

1198
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:26,360
There's a ton.
And.

1199
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:29,400
And not just it.
It goes beyond just your

1200
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:31,360
washings and anointings, for
sure.

1201
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:37,680
Yeah, for sure.
Two things, Atom.

1202
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:40,120
First off, yeah, one of the
gods.

1203
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,760
We're going to get into that
down the road, but Amun, Amun,

1204
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:47,960
Raw.
Amun and Raw can also be

1205
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:49,000
different, but they're also the
same.

1206
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,000
Anyways, we'll also get more
into that.

1207
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,120
What was the name of the God of
God in Adamic?

1208
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,280
Amun Amun.
Amun.

1209
01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:01,040
Yep, it's phonetically
identical.

1210
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:05,160
Essentially Yep.
If I had a whiteboard I would

1211
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:07,120
also draw in here a lot of other
funk things.

1212
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:10,680
I will do this in class.
The.

1213
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:15,880
Ancients loved to have their
names as conjunctions with names

1214
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,240
of deity.
OK.

1215
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:24,000
And so we see, we see almond
appear in a lot of Egyptian

1216
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:27,800
names, almond and it's almond
equating almond and almond,

1217
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:29,160
right?
Because it's this is like the

1218
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:32,200
it's clear.
It's the clear derivative.

1219
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:34,319
I can't get more.
Clear than this?

1220
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:37,359
Have you seen the?
Meme from from the Office with

1221
01:08:37,359 --> 01:08:38,439
the.
It was.

1222
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:41,279
It was from the.
Episode of The Office and it has

1223
01:08:41,279 --> 01:08:44,000
Pam from the Office and she's
holding up two pictures and

1224
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:45,160
there she's like, yeah, it's
the.

1225
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,200
Same picture, right?
And and that's, and that's what

1226
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:50,960
what that word is there, right?
It's like it's the same, the

1227
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:52,040
same word.
It is.

1228
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:57,040
It is.
The names I'm gonna start off

1229
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:58,800
with the least impressive to the
most impressive.

1230
01:09:00,279 --> 01:09:05,240
Minadab, which was the jailer in
the the the Nephite dissenter in

1231
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:08,120
the Book of Mormon who imprisons
Nephi and Lehi, the brothers,

1232
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:09,399
right.
And the prison comes burning

1233
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:11,479
down and crashing down around
their heads.

1234
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,000
Aminidai.
So Amin's there as a

1235
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,080
conjunction.
Aminidob, sorry.

1236
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,560
Amylok's ancestor when he's
giving his speech in Ammoniha,

1237
01:09:21,399 --> 01:09:25,040
The I am the descendant of
Aminidai who saw the finger of

1238
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:27,080
the Lord, right, Right on the
walls of the temple.

1239
01:09:27,319 --> 01:09:29,920
Aminidai That's that's Amen.
Yeah.

1240
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:34,479
Yep.
And you have Helaman, Helaman as

1241
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:37,880
well.
So you have the Egyptian or

1242
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:41,160
Adamic or the, you know, the
Egyptian derivative of the

1243
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:45,439
original Adamic language as a
divine name, as a conjunction in

1244
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,560
all of these names.
You see the same thing in Hebrew

1245
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:54,360
with Daniel, Samuel, the AL
names, Zedekiah, Jeremiah,

1246
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:58,480
Isaiah, the Iahs.
That's Jehovah, the OR the,

1247
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:04,200
Yeah, Elijah.
Yep, the Yaw names, they do the

1248
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:05,720
same thing.
And so you can fall.

1249
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:09,320
And fun fact, Mosiah is a
conjunction.

1250
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:12,600
Yep, of it's a Reformed Egyptian
named Moses, Moses.

1251
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:14,960
But what?
So yes, it is Moses.

1252
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:17,280
But what does Moses mean?
But we're gonna get to that

1253
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,960
maybe later.
And Jehovah, Aya, this is the

1254
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:26,040
Iah.
Moses also has a folk etymology

1255
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:27,600
like Michael.
They don't know.

1256
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:31,200
It just is.
And it means something like a

1257
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,680
basket in the river because of
the origin story of, you know,

1258
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:35,680
that tracks.
Yeah.

1259
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:36,240
Tracks.
Right.

1260
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:40,440
Because that's just.
That's so because I think the

1261
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:44,160
Hebrews were not speaking Hebrew
when they left Egypt.

1262
01:10:44,440 --> 01:10:46,280
They were speaking Egyptian.
Yeah.

1263
01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:50,440
And so Moses's name is not
Hebrew, it's Egyptian.

1264
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:55,400
And there's a lot of, I don't
know what his original name was,

1265
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:59,000
but it's likely it could have
been something like Ramses or

1266
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:03,320
Raw Moses.
It's the same consonants which

1267
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:08,680
Ramses means the son of raw.
It's Raw Moses.

1268
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:11,640
Yeah.
So you can't have your prophet

1269
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:13,680
just having being the son of
RAW.

1270
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,480
So we gotta drop the divine
Epithet of RAW and they're left

1271
01:11:17,480 --> 01:11:20,600
with the characters, OK?
With the same.

1272
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,320
Consonants that that's
translated down the line as

1273
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:24,760
Hebrew forms.
Yeah.

1274
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:28,120
And they have to assign a new
definition to it.

1275
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:34,040
But it's preserved in Mosiah,
Mosesaya, or is son of Jehovah.

1276
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:37,200
Yeah.
Cool.

1277
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:42,520
It's a Reformed Egyptian name.
Yeah, and and now, now I'm gonna

1278
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:44,880
ask questions here.
Do it.

1279
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:47,880
Do we know how long Abraham was
in Egypt?

1280
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:49,040
No.
No, no.

1281
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:49,800
Maybe we do.
I don't know.

1282
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:51,120
I don't recall.
I I don't.

1283
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:53,960
Recall either.
I don't think we know, but I

1284
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:58,160
don't think it was a brief stay.
Sure, because it does say that

1285
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,000
that Abraham taught them about
astronomy.

1286
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:05,480
Sure, right, That takes.
A while, right, 'cause you only

1287
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:08,440
got so many hours in the evening
that you're gonna be able to

1288
01:12:08,440 --> 01:12:10,360
point this out.
Sure, right?

1289
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,400
Look, as a surveyor, I once had
to do what was called shooting

1290
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:16,680
Polaris, right?
Which is you find Polaris, he

1291
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,600
takes some measurements through
the night and then you establish

1292
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:21,720
N it's archaic.
That sounds awesome.

1293
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,160
It it was awesome.
It was awesome.

1294
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:27,040
But you do that to a set.
We were pre tracing old notes

1295
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:28,640
from the 1800s.
That's so cool.

1296
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:35,040
But my point here is this.
Want more from the Mormon

1297
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:38,720
Renegade podcast?
Head over to the Mormon Renegade

1298
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:42,640
Rumble page to see all the
videos from the podcast and the

1299
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:44,800
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free.

1300
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:49,200
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Then join the Mormon Renegade

1301
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:52,280
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1302
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:56,040
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1303
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:59,840
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1304
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:02,960
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Dave Sanders.

1305
01:13:03,440 --> 01:13:06,520
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

1306
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:10,240
That takes a while, right,
'cause you only got so many

1307
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:13,480
hours in the evening that you're
gonna be able to point this out.

1308
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:17,240
Sure, right.
Look, as a surveyor, I once had

1309
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:19,600
to do what was called shooting
Polaris, right?

1310
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:22,000
Which is you find Polaris, you
take some measurements through

1311
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:25,080
the night and then you establish
N it's archaic.

1312
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:27,360
That sounds awesome.
It, it was awesome.

1313
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:29,800
It was awesome.
But you do that to a set.

1314
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:32,360
We were pre tracing old notes
from the 1800s.

1315
01:13:32,440 --> 01:13:37,120
That's so cool, but my point
here is this.

1316
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:40,480
Where are the Egyptians getting
all these?

1317
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:44,360
Sure.
Right now we.

1318
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:46,560
Start asking the question, how
much did Abraham?

1319
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:49,400
Was he schooled in the Adam
plank?

1320
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:50,720
Sure, right.
Well, he.

1321
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:52,680
Said he had the records of the
fathers right.

1322
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:54,400
And so he.
Introduced Amin.

1323
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,960
Right, right, right.
And so now we're starting to see

1324
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:04,360
something that might might have
older echoes than just Egypt

1325
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:06,120
that pops up kind of out of
nowhere.

1326
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:12,520
The other thing I'll say is that
there's a reason Egypt becomes

1327
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:14,840
the center of the world in that
time.

1328
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:16,960
Sure, because they're wildly
successful.

1329
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:20,440
Sure.
If we look at what has often

1330
01:14:20,440 --> 01:14:25,200
been attributed as a negative to
the Jews, it's that.

1331
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:27,720
They always.
Tend to be kind of successful,

1332
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:28,840
right?
Sure.

1333
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:31,400
I think that's.
Because you start embracing

1334
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:33,880
correct principles, right?
And and I want to be careful

1335
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:35,480
here.
I don't want churn this into a

1336
01:14:35,480 --> 01:14:39,840
prosperity gospel thing.
That's not why I'm saying but

1337
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:43,320
but let's face it, in America,
even our poor are among.

1338
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,680
The most of the world, right?
Absolutely.

1339
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:50,360
And.
So I, I think, I think what we

1340
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:54,120
can see is that that maybe one
of the reasons these societies

1341
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:57,240
begin to flourish a little bit
is because they do have this

1342
01:14:57,240 --> 01:14:59,040
knowledge.
Sure.

1343
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:00,480
I don't.
I can't disagree with that.

1344
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:04,640
So, yeah, we see the names and
all these names are super

1345
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:06,560
important.
We're gonna come back to this at

1346
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:09,640
length over and over and and
expound upon it.

1347
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:10,920
But you gotta do it in a certain
order.

1348
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:18,360
Adam in Hebrew means earth and
red, red.

1349
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,480
OK, red, like the color.
Red also like blood.

1350
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:27,960
In fact, blood is in Hebrew is
Dame, which is Adam or Adam

1351
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:30,800
without the law.
You know, Dame is is.

1352
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:35,840
Is.
Blood, you know, Edom, Esau, you

1353
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:39,480
know, brother of Isaac.
Edom literally means red too.

1354
01:15:39,480 --> 01:15:45,080
But if Edom is so OK, And
ancient Hebrew doesn't have

1355
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:48,800
vowels like we have in English,
so Edom and Adam are essentially

1356
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:51,080
the same word really.
Yeah, OK.

1357
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:55,280
And, and very similar and, but
the meaning is also the same

1358
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:56,440
too.
But they're it's a derivative,

1359
01:15:56,440 --> 01:16:02,480
I'll put it that way.
OK, so Adam is made from.

1360
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:06,200
So in Hebrew, it's Adam is made
from Adama, which is Earth.

1361
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:11,720
OK, so they both mean Earth, but
Adama is literally Earth.

1362
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,760
So if you've ever seen
Battlestar Galactica, I haven't.

1363
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,640
Yeah.
And so the, the leader of the,

1364
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:23,000
of the, the remnant of the 12
tribes of, of Kobal is named

1365
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:25,280
Commander Odama.
And they're on the search for

1366
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:28,960
Earth because the Earth is the
13th tribe of, of Kobal.

1367
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,320
And the Cylons, these, the, the
machines that they created are

1368
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:34,720
hunting them down.
And his name literally means

1369
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:36,640
Earth in Hebrew.
They're looking for Earth.

1370
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:38,680
You know, I didn't know that.
Well, that was.

1371
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:41,320
Rope by an Was that really rope
by an LDS guy?

1372
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:42,440
It was.
It was.

1373
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:50,600
And so the red imagery comes in
constantly.

1374
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:55,280
We just had some some news with
like the the Jews finding the

1375
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:57,200
red heifer.
Thing.

1376
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:01,040
This thing is old, old, old
imagery with the blood of of

1377
01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:06,920
Israel being red like and the
color like, like, like, you

1378
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:08,640
know, registering in your
outward appearance.

1379
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:12,880
Red hair, kind of the thing, you
know, the red heifer's a type.

1380
01:17:14,480 --> 01:17:17,600
David was said to in in
tradition was red hair and Ruddy

1381
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:20,480
faced.
Yeah, you know, to the Davidic

1382
01:17:20,480 --> 01:17:21,920
line.
Christ was also.

1383
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:24,200
In fact, we'll just read some
stuff with you, Nibbley.

1384
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:29,080
I got sent this by the same guy
who pointed out to me the the

1385
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:30,880
John Yee stuff about the book of
Abraham.

1386
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:36,240
He sent me an e-mail years ago
saying This is from Abraham in

1387
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:41,520
Egypt by Hugh Nibbley.
The title The Red Hair of

1388
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:47,480
Certain Divinities in a book
called Who Wrote the Dead Sea

1389
01:17:47,480 --> 01:17:50,920
Scrolls by Stephen D Ricks.
He said in a horoscope of an

1390
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:54,800
ideal or messianic figure, we
read his hair shall be red.

1391
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:58,640
The qualifications for the royal
substitute make that clear.

1392
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,720
He must be a stranger, thus
representing the original

1393
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,080
hostility that Pharaoh is to
subdue.

1394
01:18:05,360 --> 01:18:08,320
So it's a rival to Pharaoh.
He must be of royal blood.

1395
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:11,160
To be a real rival and
substitute for Pharaoh, he must

1396
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,840
be a blonde or a redhead.
From the earliest times, the

1397
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:17,520
enemy of Horus, who tried to
slay him was his brother Seth,

1398
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:20,920
or Typhoon, who is always
represented as being a redhead,

1399
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:24,160
as being redheaded.
That is why redheaded victims

1400
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:28,160
were sacrificed on the solar
tomb at Heliopolis and at

1401
01:18:28,280 --> 01:18:30,840
Bucyrus.
Sometimes the victims were men,

1402
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:35,400
prisoners of war, recalling the
image of Seth who had red skin

1403
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:37,440
or hair.
The Greeks.

1404
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:41,280
The Greeks told many stories of
Pharaohs who seized noble Greek

1405
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:44,040
visitors to Egypt, where blondes
were hard to come by as

1406
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:48,440
sacrificial victims.
Every animal had to be carefully

1407
01:18:48,440 --> 01:18:51,880
inspected to make sure that it
was the right color.

1408
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:56,120
If it had just one black or one
white hair, it was disqualified.

1409
01:18:56,160 --> 01:19:01,360
It had to be all red.
So the red heifer type stuff,

1410
01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:03,840
that's no, it's not biblical,
but it's like Midrash or

1411
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:07,120
Talmudic commentary.
But this tradition is very old

1412
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:12,120
and it goes back to I would say
the idea that Christ is the Son

1413
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:15,920
of God being sacrificed and the
hag is the is the father of the

1414
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:18,960
Messiah and his name means red.
Wow.

1415
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:21,880
You know.
Yeah, it's.

1416
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:25,600
Huge.
Also back to appealing to

1417
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:28,680
Brigham Young in our quest for
finding where in the Bible it

1418
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:31,640
talks about the Adam God
Doctrine, since we're on the

1419
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:34,960
topic of Adam.
It.

1420
01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:39,440
Says in Ephesians chapter 4
verse 14 through 15, Paul says

1421
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:43,040
for this, 'cause I bow my knees
unto the Father of our Lord

1422
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:46,400
Jesus Christ, of whom the whole
family in heaven and earth is

1423
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:50,040
named.
So Paul's saying that the human

1424
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:52,600
family is named after God, the
Father of Christ.

1425
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:54,640
But what is the name of the
human family?

1426
01:19:55,440 --> 01:20:01,520
Man, man?
In Moses one verse 34 it says

1427
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:03,520
and the first man of all men
have I created.

1428
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:06,920
Called and I called Adam, which
is many Genesis 5 verse one

1429
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:10,040
through 2 says this is the book
of of the generations of Adam in

1430
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:13,240
the day that God created man in
the likeness that God made he

1431
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:17,800
him male and female, created he
them and blessed them and called

1432
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:21,040
their name Adam.
In the day that they are created

1433
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:23,480
so male and female their name is
Adam.

1434
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:27,360
Moses 6 says, and a book of
remembrance was kept in which

1435
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:28,960
was recorded in the language of
Adam.

1436
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:32,560
And this was the book of the
generations of Adam saying in

1437
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:36,120
the day that God created man in
the likeness of God, made he him

1438
01:20:36,440 --> 01:20:38,880
same thing, and called their
name Adam.

1439
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:44,640
So Paul was saying that I bow my
knee before the Father of our

1440
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:47,480
Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the
whole family of heaven and earth

1441
01:20:47,480 --> 01:20:52,560
is named.
He's saying God's named Adam

1442
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:57,560
right there, right of whom the
whole family of heaven and earth

1443
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:00,200
would be He's the father of
Jesus Christ.

1444
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:05,320
Wow, that puts.
It into perspective, right, It

1445
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:07,320
kind of puts it.
To bed.

1446
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:10,960
In some ways I think so.
I think so so.

1447
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,680
Let me ask you this, going back
to that statement by Joseph

1448
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:18,840
Smith that, that there's almond,
sun almond.

1449
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:23,640
Is there any ever, any ever
reference to the female

1450
01:21:24,400 --> 01:21:27,440
counterparts to that?
Not in those revelations that I

1451
01:21:27,440 --> 01:21:36,880
remember, no, let's we're going
to dig into some back into the

1452
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:41,120
Michael or the the, the
investiture of Michael, the

1453
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:43,600
Archangel stuff with parallels
for the creation.

1454
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:49,240
OK, this again is.
Christ.

1455
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:51,800
Teaching the disciples on the
Mount of Olives after John is

1456
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:57,480
killed, he tells them and this
is about the fall of of Satan

1457
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:03,160
and he connects it to to Adam,
which is this is not this is

1458
01:22:03,160 --> 01:22:07,760
this is awesome though my he
says my father blessed Adam

1459
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:10,760
saying you will receive the
blessing that it may be a

1460
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:12,760
blessing for all who come into
the world.

1461
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:16,160
We then planted a garden.
We took one of his ribs.

1462
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:23,960
Adam called his wife Zoe.
Even Greek is Zoe.

1463
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:28,320
He called his wife Zoe, and
angels attended them, admiring

1464
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:30,240
the beauty and glory of the
human beings.

1465
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:33,880
Beauty.
And glory, First off.

1466
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:36,440
So Adam and Zoe for Eve have
glory?

1467
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:39,240
Yep.
On the first day that Adam

1468
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:43,520
worshipped, not a single Angel
remained in heaven or on earth.

1469
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:46,040
They all came and cried out.
Amen.

1470
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,320
Amen.
My father said to the angels,

1471
01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:51,560
Come, let us worship Adam, my
likeness and image.

1472
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:55,680
Whoa.
To worship Adam to.

1473
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:57,960
Worship Adam.
So this this book is.

1474
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:00,280
What was the name of this book
again?

1475
01:23:00,440 --> 01:23:01,920
It's the.
Investiture of Michael the

1476
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:03,440
American Angel.
Where can you find it?

1477
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:07,520
I just searched it up on Google
and found APDF after some

1478
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:09,560
digging there for it.
That's it.

1479
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:11,360
And yeah, and downloaded it like
you.

1480
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:14,600
Didn't have to go to a mountain
somewhere and reach into a box

1481
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:16,680
and grab spectacles.
It's just on Google.

1482
01:23:17,160 --> 01:23:19,000
Yep.
And this is, this is Coptic

1483
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:24,120
Egyptian, OK, Christian from I
think it's the 7th.

1484
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:27,840
No, the, it's the 8th or 9th
century Christian, Coptic

1485
01:23:27,840 --> 01:23:32,000
Christian text.
So this, bearing in mind what

1486
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,800
we're reading here lies in the
face of what I saw in

1487
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:38,840
Christianity on my mission in
the Protestant world belt, where

1488
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:42,960
Adam is the depraved figure of
that caused the fall and that is

1489
01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:43,840
it.
And he's to blame for

1490
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:47,760
everything.
This is the polar opposite of

1491
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:51,560
that.
And this is Christian early

1492
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:54,080
Christianity.
And I think a lot of this was

1493
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:56,480
actually probably written by
people who knew things that you

1494
01:23:56,480 --> 01:23:58,720
and I are talking about.
But they had to write it in such

1495
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:01,600
a way that I it's, it's a little
hidden.

1496
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:04,720
It's there, but it's a little
hidden because you can't they

1497
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:06,200
always.
They already had the Council of

1498
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:09,000
Nicaea and stuff where the
Trinity's been accepted.

1499
01:24:09,400 --> 01:24:11,080
In fact, it.
Mentions the Trinity several

1500
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:13,840
times in this and you got to
just throw that out at being LDS

1501
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:17,000
and reading this.
But but even that's interesting

1502
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:19,880
in some ways when you, when you,
if you and I recommend anyone

1503
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:21,400
who's interested in this stuff,
let's go read it.

1504
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:27,200
But this stuff highly exalts
Adam versus throwing him under

1505
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:29,240
the bus.
Let me ask you this question.

1506
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:34,720
It seems like a side question,
but but it really ties in the

1507
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:36,640
burning of the Library of
Alexandria.

1508
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:40,440
Is that before or after the
Nicene Crete Council?

1509
01:24:40,480 --> 01:24:42,040
So I.
Think it might have actually had

1510
01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:45,000
several burnings.
The one that's most famous

1511
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:47,280
happened during the time of
Julius Caesar, so it predates

1512
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:49,360
Christianity.
OK.

1513
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:53,880
But I think that there were
subsequent burnings at that

1514
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:56,720
place as it had been rebuilt.
You gotta wonder if some of the

1515
01:24:56,720 --> 01:24:58,560
stuff wasn't in some of those
libraries.

1516
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:02,000
Well, OK, so this is where I'm
getting at too with this is and

1517
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:07,640
we're gonna see this more.
Actually hold that.

1518
01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:12,680
Thought I'll come back to that.
No, we'll address it now and

1519
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:16,320
again later.
What I think we're reading here

1520
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:19,880
is a very old tradition.
It it's not something I'm

1521
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:21,480
thinking cropped up in the 9th
century.

1522
01:25:21,480 --> 01:25:25,520
And they no, it is older than
that, obviously.

1523
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:29,040
And these things were edited out
of the Bible.

1524
01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:31,880
Right out of.
The records that made it into

1525
01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:34,760
the Bible, that's just what it's
that'll be made clear in a

1526
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:38,000
second, I think so, yeah, They
he said.

1527
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:40,560
The Father Christ is telling the
disciples.

1528
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:43,280
My father said to the angels,
Come let us worship Adam, my

1529
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:45,960
likeness and image.
They all answered and said, we

1530
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:50,640
will worship him, our Lord and
King again.

1531
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:53,960
Yeah, after they had all
worshipped, we reached the first

1532
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:56,800
Angel created by my father, and
my father said to him.

1533
01:25:57,720 --> 01:25:58,720
And this is.
Where it gets a little

1534
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:03,000
derivative from what we
understand in in LDS or Mormon

1535
01:26:04,240 --> 01:26:06,800
cosmology.
So the father goes to the first

1536
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:09,200
Angel he ever created that says
come worship the man I have

1537
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:12,920
created in my likeness, my image
and the work of my hands.

1538
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:16,080
And the archeplasma, that's the
word that they use for it.

1539
01:26:16,200 --> 01:26:19,720
I don't know what that means.
The archeplasma, the first Angel

1540
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:23,760
replied, I will not worship him
for he is a man and I am before

1541
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:25,480
him.
Remember that I am before him.

1542
01:26:26,160 --> 01:26:27,680
And.
I am the greatest of all the

1543
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:30,800
angels and when the Archeplasma
refused to worship him, he led

1544
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:34,400
astray many other angels and did
not let them worship Adam and

1545
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:37,040
would never worship one less
than himself.

1546
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:41,000
So that's the the investiture of
Michael compare, let's we're

1547
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:44,760
going to compare section 29 of
the Doctrine Covenants to that

1548
01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:48,320
the the Archeplasma says, I
won't worship him for he is a

1549
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:52,640
man and I am before him.
Section 29 says And it came to

1550
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:56,240
pass that Adam being tempted of
the devil, for behold the devil

1551
01:26:56,240 --> 01:27:00,000
was before Adam, For he rebelled
against me, saying, Give me

1552
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:03,400
thine honor, which is my power.
And also 1/3 of part of the

1553
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:06,640
hosts of heaven turned he away
from me because of their agency,

1554
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:09,280
and they were thrust down and
thus became the devil and his

1555
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:11,440
angels.
That's a.

1556
01:27:11,440 --> 01:27:13,800
Score for Joseph Smith.
I don't know exactly where to

1557
01:27:13,800 --> 01:27:17,160
place the The Devil was Before
Adam chronologically.

1558
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:20,000
Speaking.
If especially, what if we're

1559
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:23,200
relegating him to be the class
of a of a resurrected personage

1560
01:27:23,200 --> 01:27:26,240
as well, which probably might be
offensive to some of our

1561
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:28,480
listeners.
I don't know how to fully

1562
01:27:28,480 --> 01:27:31,200
explain or deal with that.
I have theories.

1563
01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:33,920
We can maybe talk about that.
I don't know if we should talk

1564
01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:35,360
about that.
That's where I'm.

1565
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:38,280
At I'm like, I'm not sure we
want to open this can of worms

1566
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:42,680
although.
Maybe off the record we should

1567
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:46,640
talk about that later, but in
any case, that's a score for

1568
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:49,280
Joseph Smith to say 0100.
Percent in his.

1569
01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:53,120
In a revelation of Joseph Smith,
probably dated to 1830 or 31,

1570
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:57,840
that it says that the devil was
before Adam in the same context

1571
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:01,160
of the Scripture of the divine
investiture of Michael, where

1572
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:04,400
it's the fall of the of Satan,
it's the fall of the angels.

1573
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:09,440
He sought after the honor and
was thrust out of heaven, and

1574
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:11,720
the whole debate was he was
before.

1575
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:14,880
Yeah, Yep.
So what does that mean?

1576
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:18,880
It means that Joseph Smith
either had some ancient record

1577
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:25,400
from ancient, you know, Coptic
Egypt in 1831, or he's tapping

1578
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:28,320
into a book that's recorded in
heaven when the scribes are

1579
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:32,760
writing on on the earth here and
he has access to that.

1580
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:36,520
He he totally could have jumped
a boat, got fluent and Coptic

1581
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:40,920
Christian and and and and and
Egyptian and, and yeah, I don't

1582
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:43,480
even know what the language is
for Coptic Christian, but it's

1583
01:28:43,480 --> 01:28:48,080
Egyptian and and and then sailed
back to America and just totally

1584
01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:49,520
plagiarized it.
Yeah, yeah.

1585
01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:55,920
But back to our commentary on
these are old traditions.

1586
01:28:56,520 --> 01:28:58,880
And it's not just this book, by
the way, where it talks about

1587
01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:02,440
this, this, this investing.
We're gonna read another one,

1588
01:29:02,440 --> 01:29:07,000
but somewhere else, I think.
But it's in Islam.

1589
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:10,680
The first time I ever saw any of
this was actually a class I took

1590
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:13,400
in Middle Eastern studies.
And they're probably

1591
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:17,520
plagiarizing and that's all
right because the tradition's

1592
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:21,280
older, but it's in books like
the 1st and 2nd book of Adam and

1593
01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:23,280
Eve.
There's a book called the Adam

1594
01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:25,760
and Eve and the, and they're
called Combat with Satan.

1595
01:29:26,400 --> 01:29:30,920
This stuff's in there.
There's another book called the

1596
01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:35,560
Armenian Adam and Eve and the
Incarnation.

1597
01:29:36,440 --> 01:29:39,200
All this stuff about Adam being
worshipped by angels and all is

1598
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:42,280
to varying degrees is in all of
those books.

1599
01:29:42,800 --> 01:29:48,320
It's in all of them and the
Bible and and it's related to

1600
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:53,240
the fall of Satan, OK, the Adam
and Satan combat there

1601
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:56,440
premortally, not just on earth
but premortally is in all of

1602
01:29:56,440 --> 01:30:00,360
those and then but we don't have
any of that in the Bible, right,

1603
01:30:00,440 --> 01:30:05,360
right.
But Lehigh says and I Lehigh

1604
01:30:05,360 --> 01:30:09,000
according to the things that
which I have read must need

1605
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:11,240
suppose that an Angel of God
according to that which is

1606
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:14,000
written he had fallen from
heaven, wherefore he became a

1607
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:15,880
devil having sought that which
was evil from God.

1608
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:21,280
We don't have that scripture.
He did and I'm I am saying that

1609
01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:24,120
what we're reading out of the
divine investiture of Michael is

1610
01:30:24,120 --> 01:30:27,440
coming from an older variant
account of Genesis, right.

1611
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:31,560
Obviously that like the book of
Moses, like where God's telling

1612
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:34,320
Moses because you're asking
Christ is telling the disciples

1613
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:37,240
here allegedly the cup.
Some scribes probably making

1614
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:40,280
this up, but he's putting it in
a setting where Christ has being

1615
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:42,360
asked by the disciples tell us
about these things.

1616
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:45,480
Just like Moses is asking God
tell me about these things and

1617
01:30:45,480 --> 01:30:46,760
that's this is what they're
being told.

1618
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:49,560
And.
Lehi read this somewhere.

1619
01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:54,920
Yeah, Yep, that's exactly right.
There's a lot there.

1620
01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:58,840
There's a lot there.
Lehi had access to a book

1621
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:01,840
detailing that and you it's and
it's second Nephi chapter 2,

1622
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:04,600
where he's talking about the
fall of Adam, where he says that

1623
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:05,600
statement.
Yep.

1624
01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:09,200
Yep, which would make sense
because what was Lee?

1625
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:12,160
What what do we think Lehigh's
profession?

1626
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:15,640
Was he in Italy?
Said he was a merchant man or a

1627
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:17,480
jewelry maker or merchant?
Yeah, right.

1628
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:22,320
So he would be familiar not just
with Egypt.

1629
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:25,920
Egyptian is a language, but
culture, the culture.

1630
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:28,040
He's probably going down there.
Right.

1631
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:31,600
Back to my question about the
the Library of Alexandria.

1632
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:35,160
Maybe he's popping in there and
like, hey boys, go take care of

1633
01:31:35,160 --> 01:31:36,560
business.
Pop's got some stuff.

1634
01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:38,280
He's got to go read, yes?
Right.

1635
01:31:38,480 --> 01:31:43,280
And and you know.
There when when you start

1636
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:47,440
opening this up, this is mind
blowing stuff, right?

1637
01:31:47,440 --> 01:31:51,040
This is heady stuff, and quite
frankly, stuff that the

1638
01:31:51,040 --> 01:31:53,120
sectarians just don't have an
answer for.

1639
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:54,600
They don't.
They hate this stuff.

1640
01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:55,880
They.
Absolutely.

1641
01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:58,600
Christian stuff, Yeah, they hate
this stuff because they don't

1642
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:02,160
have answers for it.
This is not sitting well, right?

1643
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:06,720
But this is stuff is Mormons and
This is why I think for so long

1644
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:10,960
as Mormons, we we we have
struggled to make our case.

1645
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:15,080
It it's not the fact we don't
have enough evidence to make our

1646
01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:17,000
case.
It's we're just not bold enough

1647
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:20,440
to do it right.
And and, and maybe we're not,

1648
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:25,200
we're, we're not spending the
time necessary to get in and

1649
01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:26,600
parse this out and pull it
apart.

1650
01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:28,560
I think so.
I think it's exactly we don't

1651
01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:30,640
devote enough time to rigorous
study, right?

1652
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:36,080
Because if we did, and then we
were bold on top of that, there,

1653
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:38,480
there's no pulling this apart,
right?

1654
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:40,520
Go argue.
Don't argue with us.

1655
01:32:40,520 --> 01:32:43,160
Go go argue with those old
documents, right?

1656
01:32:43,160 --> 01:32:44,400
Yeah, that's right.
And explain.

1657
01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:51,400
To me, how it is a a a farm boy
in frontier America with

1658
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:55,920
probably a fourth grade
education is hitting the bull's

1659
01:32:55,920 --> 01:32:58,320
eyes.
He's the best guesser in the

1660
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:00,720
whole world ever.
Yeah, absolutely right.

1661
01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:04,400
I mean, it's nuts.
So it's interesting to me in

1662
01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:06,760
addition to this, so this book
is called The Investiture of

1663
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:07,880
Michael.
We haven't even talked about

1664
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:10,680
Michael yet.
We talked about Adams at length.

1665
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:14,040
But the Jews and the Christians
did not associate Michael and

1666
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:16,400
Adam to our, to my knowledge,
together.

1667
01:33:16,400 --> 01:33:20,880
Joseph Smith did that right.
And we talked about the secular

1668
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:23,600
thought about how Michael
develops an angelology about

1669
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:26,640
being the mediator between as
God is removed in the

1670
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:30,520
consciousness of of the human
family through philosophy.

1671
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:37,360
But the book of the investiture
of Michael, you know, he and it

1672
01:33:37,360 --> 01:33:39,800
also treats Michael and Adam
differently, as different

1673
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:42,600
beings, just like you'd expect
from a Christian manuscript.

1674
01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:47,960
But it's fascinating to me that
it talks about Adam and Michael.

1675
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:51,000
In.
The same like, OK, what are

1676
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:52,880
there's plenty to talk about in
the gospel, but you're gonna

1677
01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:55,760
talk about the characters of
Michael and Adam to this degree,

1678
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:58,560
right?
Why, Yeah.

1679
01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:04,760
Anyways to case in point Christ
goes on to tell the disciples

1680
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:11,120
that after Satan was cast out of
heaven God he then took a big

1681
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:15,000
strong Angel called Michael and
set him on the throne in place

1682
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:25,160
of the archaeoplasm and and all
the glory taken from Mostima,

1683
01:34:25,160 --> 01:34:28,040
which is a Persian word for
hateful 1 So it's talking about

1684
01:34:28,080 --> 01:34:31,400
Satan right?
He took all the glory from Satan

1685
01:34:31,960 --> 01:34:36,280
or and all the glory that taken
from Satan was given to Michael.

1686
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:42,400
The light crown of joy was put
upon Michael's head, the staff

1687
01:34:42,400 --> 01:34:45,640
of truth was given to him, and
the sandal of truth was placed

1688
01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:51,200
upon his feet.
Compare that with Revelation to

1689
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:56,560
Joseph Smith, section 78 of the
Doctrine of Covenants, verse 18,

1690
01:34:56,840 --> 01:35:00,720
which says, Who hath appointed
Michael your Prince, and

1691
01:35:00,720 --> 01:35:04,640
established his feet, and set
him upon high, and given unto

1692
01:35:04,640 --> 01:35:07,240
him the keys of salvation under
the counsel and direction of the

1693
01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:09,360
Holy One?
It was beginning without

1694
01:35:09,360 --> 01:35:13,640
beginning of days or end of
life, down to the sandals on his

1695
01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:18,160
feet.
It was that accurate, right?

1696
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:20,920
Right established.
His feet, set him on high, as

1697
01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:24,640
what Joseph Smith says and the
investiture of Michael says.

1698
01:35:24,640 --> 01:35:29,000
The light crown or a crown of
light was placed upon his head.

1699
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:31,800
A staff of truth and sandals of
truth were placed on his feet.

1700
01:35:36,040 --> 01:35:41,880
And see, this is where this is
where we owe the Council of

1701
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:43,920
Nicaea.
A beating a Swift.

1702
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:46,960
Kick in the ass.
Yeah, right, because here's

1703
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:52,880
here's the thing.
Because in these books weren't

1704
01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:57,880
canonized right?
They became further subject to

1705
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:00,520
even more degeneration over time
Yes.

1706
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:02,160
Of their text.
Yeah, right.

1707
01:36:02,160 --> 01:36:07,520
Perfect sense.
And the reason it was not put in

1708
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:12,360
there was not about.
Well, we're not sure if this

1709
01:36:12,360 --> 01:36:16,600
one's factually correct, right?
That had nothing to do with

1710
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:20,520
this, right.
If I'm not mistaken, when they

1711
01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:25,280
call the Council of Nicaea, they
have prostitutes there.

1712
01:36:25,640 --> 01:36:28,120
Really.
Oh, this this was a party,

1713
01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:31,000
right?
This was not this.

1714
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:34,320
Don't quote me.
I'll have to double check.

1715
01:36:34,320 --> 01:36:37,160
And if, if, if this is wrong,
I'll edit it out.

1716
01:36:37,440 --> 01:36:41,200
But if I'm not mistaken, the
booze was flowing, the chips

1717
01:36:41,200 --> 01:36:45,280
were there, sure.
And it was about one thing.

1718
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:50,760
And that was get the emperor a
religion that all you guys can

1719
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:56,320
agree on so that we can have one
religion for this empire.

1720
01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:59,720
Yes, that makes sense that we
can now administer.

1721
01:37:00,560 --> 01:37:04,080
Yep, that.
Was the exercise it had nothing

1722
01:37:04,080 --> 01:37:07,960
to do with?
Is the Book of Enoch factually

1723
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:13,040
correct?
Is is the the the the book and I

1724
01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:15,680
the the Pista Sophia, is that
correct?

1725
01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:19,360
That was not what was there.
It was.

1726
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:22,040
Can you agree to this turtle?
Yeah, I can agree to that.

1727
01:37:22,080 --> 01:37:24,840
And.
A quick word on scriptures like

1728
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:26,840
the Book of Enoch and other
things that are apocryphal or

1729
01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:32,720
pseudepigraphal.
These you have to be careful

1730
01:37:32,720 --> 01:37:34,360
with some of these things
because.

1731
01:37:35,480 --> 01:37:36,880
When?
Christ came on the earth.

1732
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:40,480
For.
Example Jews didn't stop being

1733
01:37:40,480 --> 01:37:41,320
Jews.
Nope.

1734
01:37:42,080 --> 01:37:43,640
And they kept writing books.
Yep.

1735
01:37:44,040 --> 01:37:47,000
And so you will have books that
are like the Book of Enoch or

1736
01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:49,440
other things that were written
from a Jewish perspective that

1737
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:52,800
might have some anti
Christianity in them because

1738
01:37:53,040 --> 01:37:57,680
they were bitter against that
whole movement of Christ coming

1739
01:37:57,680 --> 01:38:01,080
and they had to rework some
serious things.

1740
01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:02,680
Yep.
And that they still had the

1741
01:38:02,680 --> 01:38:04,880
belief in the Messiah.
But you're going to maybe get

1742
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:07,320
some weird stuff.
There, there is some weird stuff

1743
01:38:07,320 --> 01:38:09,480
in there having been through the
Book of Enoch.

1744
01:38:09,480 --> 01:38:13,060
In fact, I just did a podcast
with somebody this week on uh

1745
01:38:13,060 --> 01:38:16,360
huh, cool.
There's more in there than what

1746
01:38:16,640 --> 01:38:20,120
what a lot of scholars,
especially secular scholars,

1747
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:21,960
want to fess up to.
It's.

1748
01:38:21,960 --> 01:38:23,560
True.
I'm reading the Book of Enoch

1749
01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:24,880
the Prophet by Hugh Nibley right
now.

1750
01:38:24,880 --> 01:38:28,520
It's in my car and.
There is a lot in there that

1751
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:33,480
goes deep, right?
And again, and, and I talked

1752
01:38:33,480 --> 01:38:36,600
about this this week with this
gentleman Adam Stokes with his

1753
01:38:36,600 --> 01:38:38,760
was his name.
He's from a different

1754
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:45,880
restorationist tradition, sure.
But we were, we were talking

1755
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:49,560
about this at length, about the
bull's eyes that Joseph gets

1756
01:38:49,720 --> 01:38:54,640
over and over and over because
Moses 6 through 8 is almost

1757
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:57,240
exclusively about Enoch right
now.

1758
01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:01,600
The closest Joseph could have
got to the Book of Enoch in his

1759
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:04,800
day, it was in France, and it
was in French.

1760
01:39:05,400 --> 01:39:10,040
Yep.
And so somehow, again, Joseph

1761
01:39:10,440 --> 01:39:18,120
the plowboy, he's like hitting
bull's eyes that 75 years later,

1762
01:39:18,440 --> 01:39:20,360
people are like, that's a
coincidence.

1763
01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:21,160
Yeah.
And there's like one.

1764
01:39:21,160 --> 01:39:23,160
Copy at that point in time.
Also one.

1765
01:39:23,440 --> 01:39:27,920
Yeah, So crazy.
Yeah.

1766
01:39:31,320 --> 01:39:34,880
So he's hitting Bull's eyes with
the Doctrine and Covenants and

1767
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:37,560
this, you know, book of the
investiture of Michael, right.

1768
01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:44,080
It's it's absolutely nuts.
Let's see also in the Book of.

1769
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:49,280
Is this book?
Of Moses I think it is and this

1770
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:52,040
we saw also in bear record that
an Angel of God who is in

1771
01:39:52,040 --> 01:39:53,360
authority in the presence of
God.

1772
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:58,360
Oh this is section 76 this is
Christ Joseph and Oliver we we

1773
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:01,920
saw bear record that an Angel of
God who is in a in authority in

1774
01:40:01,920 --> 01:40:04,400
the presence of God who rebelled
against the only begotten Son

1775
01:40:04,400 --> 01:40:07,800
whom the Father loved and who
was in the bosom of the Father

1776
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:10,160
was thrust down from the
presence of God and the Son and

1777
01:40:10,160 --> 01:40:12,760
was called perdition for the
heavens wept over him.

1778
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:14,840
He was Lucifer a son of the
morning.

1779
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:17,920
OK, we're going to compare that
scripture to more.

1780
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:22,440
That's for sure of Michael, my
father said.

1781
01:40:23,240 --> 01:40:28,680
And this is back to the dialogue
that the father has with Satan

1782
01:40:28,680 --> 01:40:30,600
when he when he refuses to
worship Adam.

1783
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:34,440
OK, my father said, since you
have become stubborn and

1784
01:40:34,440 --> 01:40:37,760
disobedient from this time you
will not be called Archeplasma,

1785
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:40,440
but Soclem.
I don't know what that means.

1786
01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:44,840
The opponent of the Lord
probably means that you'll be

1787
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:47,440
you'll be called Saklan, the
opponent of his Lord.

1788
01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:51,480
My father ordered one of his
cherubim, who beat him with his

1789
01:40:51,480 --> 01:40:53,320
wings and cast him down to the
earth.

1790
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:56,480
At that point, a loud noise came
from his nostrils.

1791
01:40:57,480 --> 01:41:01,080
My father became distressed as
he sat upon his throne and the

1792
01:41:01,080 --> 01:41:07,160
entire angelic post wept.
What was that last line from

1793
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:10,080
section 76 and was called
Perdition, for the heavens wept

1794
01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:10,760
over him.
Yep.

1795
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:19,120
Wow, holy cow, it's all over,
down to God weeping and the

1796
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:20,800
heavens weeping.
Absolutely.

1797
01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:24,520
You know, which also flies in
the face of some sectarian

1798
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:26,600
notions of God.
Right.

1799
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:28,560
I'm sure it's a coincidence.
Don't worry about it.

1800
01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:37,200
We want to talk about the.
Let's see.

1801
01:41:37,200 --> 01:41:38,760
All right, Consult my notes.
Hold that thought.

1802
01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:43,320
You're good.
OK, that's later.

1803
01:41:43,600 --> 01:42:01,200
OK,
important note sidebar Joe Moses

1804
01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:04,480
says, and this is interesting to
consider in the to emphasize in

1805
01:42:04,480 --> 01:42:06,520
light of these discussions as
well.

1806
01:42:07,120 --> 01:42:10,880
It says at the end of the
chapter one in Moses, right.

1807
01:42:11,920 --> 01:42:14,240
This is true even as much as I
will right.

1808
01:42:14,680 --> 01:42:18,760
So Moses's account is quote true
enough for a people with a

1809
01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:23,680
lesser portion and I pointed out
earlier section 84 which it says

1810
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:26,880
that they had the keys removed
right of the the knowledge of

1811
01:42:26,880 --> 01:42:29,960
God.
All right, Michael becoming Adam

1812
01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:33,320
as far let's talk about that,
you know God coming to earth,

1813
01:42:33,640 --> 01:42:37,200
right And is that in.
The.

1814
01:42:37,200 --> 01:42:38,920
Scriptures.
Well, we talked about that a

1815
01:42:38,920 --> 01:42:40,400
little bit.
Let's go back to the Egyptian

1816
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:42,320
stuff.
OK, What does the Book of

1817
01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:45,960
Breathing's type stuff that you
know, we talked about the the

1818
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:50,440
resurrection and the the breath
of life Right now, the creation

1819
01:42:50,440 --> 01:42:56,720
aspect of the drama from the
Book of Breathings we quoted

1820
01:42:56,720 --> 01:42:58,880
earlier.
Thou art about to behold raw and

1821
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:00,920
is coming down atom in the
evening.

1822
01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:05,400
Ammon is at thy side.
Oh, by the way, quick sidebar

1823
01:43:05,400 --> 01:43:07,960
again.
I forgot to mention when we were

1824
01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:10,400
listing out those almond names.
Yes, Ammon.

1825
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:14,640
Oh yeah, yeah, literally in the
book, not even a.

1826
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:16,160
Conjunction.
It's just the word.

1827
01:43:16,200 --> 01:43:18,320
It's just the name.
There's some there.

1828
01:43:18,320 --> 01:43:21,280
It is hilarious when you
consider that in light of his

1829
01:43:21,280 --> 01:43:24,880
interactions with King Limoni,
when he smites off the arms all

1830
01:43:24,880 --> 01:43:30,280
these, all these wicked Lamanite
robbers and Limoni's like,

1831
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:33,280
there's someone here with the
name of God.

1832
01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:36,480
Oh, he doesn't know what God is,
but he asks him, are you the

1833
01:43:36,480 --> 01:43:39,600
great Spirit?
Because he there's a guy who is

1834
01:43:39,600 --> 01:43:42,960
acting like an immortal or into
someone indestructible, and he's

1835
01:43:42,960 --> 01:43:45,960
got this divine name and he's
acting like it, right?

1836
01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:47,640
And he?
Asks him point blank, Are you

1837
01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:49,400
the great spirit?
That's hilarious.

1838
01:43:49,600 --> 01:43:50,680
I just hilarious.
Yeah.

1839
01:43:51,080 --> 01:43:54,080
And he's in panic mode because
it's dawned on him, right?

1840
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:58,680
And that we just gloss over
that, but they would have known

1841
01:43:58,680 --> 01:44:01,520
right, because absolutely the
the heritage that they came from

1842
01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:05,520
through Lehigh anyway.
Pata forms the body after the

1843
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:07,960
the other three give the breath
of life in the endowment.

1844
01:44:09,200 --> 01:44:13,920
Nibley says Egyptian gods can
readily can be readily combined

1845
01:44:13,920 --> 01:44:16,840
in a father son relationship
which proclaims the identity in

1846
01:44:16,840 --> 01:44:21,400
their of their nature in office.
The total unity in plurality is

1847
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:24,240
represented in an all male
Trinity Trinity.

1848
01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:29,000
The idea of a trio representing
different aspects of the same

1849
01:44:29,000 --> 01:44:32,040
being is clearly suggested by
the three main aspects of the

1850
01:44:32,040 --> 01:44:34,800
sun in the sky.
The position of the sun in the

1851
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:40,480
morning rising at noon, The
position of the of the sun in

1852
01:44:40,480 --> 01:44:45,080
the morning as it's rising noon
at its height and at the evening

1853
01:44:45,440 --> 01:44:47,160
the setting sun, so it's
descending.

1854
01:44:47,240 --> 01:44:49,720
So there's three modes.
The one.

1855
01:44:49,720 --> 01:44:53,680
Thing that does not change is
the identification of Atom with

1856
01:44:53,680 --> 01:44:57,480
the evening sun.
He is always that atom in the

1857
01:44:57,480 --> 01:45:00,000
evening.
Why evening if the occasion is

1858
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:02,280
the creation which the
Egyptians, like most other

1859
01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:05,600
people, naturally associated
with the sun rising, Why the

1860
01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:08,840
emphasis on the coming down of a
God instead of the rising sun?

1861
01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:16,080
Atom is unique as one who is a
creator, yet humanly human, yet

1862
01:45:16,080 --> 01:45:19,560
human equally at home in both
heaven and on earth.

1863
01:45:20,360 --> 01:45:24,640
Adam or Atom and Raw stick close
together in the creation

1864
01:45:24,640 --> 01:45:29,000
contexts.
Raw comes down to Atom.

1865
01:45:29,680 --> 01:45:32,320
Or.
When he comes down, he is Atom,

1866
01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:36,000
but the one Raw deals.
The one that Raw deals with is

1867
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:40,320
Atom, he who comes down to Earth
and changed his name in doing

1868
01:45:40,320 --> 01:45:43,040
so.
The classic instance of this is

1869
01:45:43,040 --> 01:45:46,360
Raw himself, who is known by the
name of Atom when he descends to

1870
01:45:46,360 --> 01:45:48,800
Earth, as attested to by our
Book of Breathing.

1871
01:45:49,480 --> 01:45:52,160
It is hard in some of these
associations to avoid hearing

1872
01:45:52,160 --> 01:45:53,840
the name of Adam without of
Atom.

1873
01:45:54,440 --> 01:46:00,200
And indeed Eugene Lefeber,
noting how closely Atom

1874
01:46:00,200 --> 01:46:03,040
resembles Adam and his
attributes and finding no

1875
01:46:03,040 --> 01:46:07,920
philosophical apps phylological
obstacles to equating the names,

1876
01:46:07,920 --> 01:46:11,080
asked why not identify him with
the biblical atom?

1877
01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:14,960
The name Atom signifies,
according to Murray, both the

1878
01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:18,680
Creator and the collective sum
of all future beings, which is

1879
01:46:18,680 --> 01:46:21,000
like the first of all men I have
called Adam.

1880
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:24,480
Which is many, right?
Or the.

1881
01:46:24,480 --> 01:46:27,240
Uniting of many in one,
combining all pre existent

1882
01:46:27,240 --> 01:46:31,840
beings in a single archetype,
who there thereby represents all

1883
01:46:31,840 --> 01:46:34,040
beings.
Thereafter this agrees.

1884
01:46:34,800 --> 01:46:36,160
I got ahead of myself.
I'm sorry.

1885
01:46:36,320 --> 01:46:38,960
This agrees with Joseph Smith's
definition of Adam in the Pearl

1886
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:41,720
of Great price quote.
And the first man of all men

1887
01:46:41,720 --> 01:46:44,840
have I created and called Adam,
which is many.

1888
01:46:45,440 --> 01:46:48,720
What complicates the picture is
that Adam is also the creator,

1889
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:52,880
specifically the creator of man.
He is the ancient one with all Q

1890
01:46:52,880 --> 01:46:53,560
Nibbly.
Yeah.

1891
01:46:54,320 --> 01:46:55,480
When?
Raw comes down.

1892
01:46:55,480 --> 01:46:58,960
He is Adam at Adam, as we have
seen, while Ammon and Ptah

1893
01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:02,280
together form the body of man
and place breath in the body.

1894
01:47:02,440 --> 01:47:05,200
Whose body?
That can be complicated too.

1895
01:47:05,200 --> 01:47:09,520
But the preferred candidate is
Adam, by far the most human of

1896
01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:12,920
the four.
Quote, I am Ptah, who has opened

1897
01:47:12,920 --> 01:47:16,560
thy mouth.
Thy body is the body of Adam

1898
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:21,640
Eternally thou arisest with thy
father Adam, the dead king is

1899
01:47:21,640 --> 01:47:24,880
told so that you know in the
king, the dead king that's being

1900
01:47:24,880 --> 01:47:27,440
resurrected, it says your body
is the body of Adam.

1901
01:47:28,240 --> 01:47:30,240
Thou art raised up with thy
father Adam.

1902
01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:34,960
Adam is the rising and the
setting sun raw coming down.

1903
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:39,440
Adam in the evening.
This is back to you nibbly raw,

1904
01:47:39,440 --> 01:47:41,600
coming down.
And Adam in the evening is

1905
01:47:41,600 --> 01:47:46,680
necessarily the red sun as it
passes down between the upper

1906
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:49,080
and the lower worlds.
Yeah, back to the color that we

1907
01:47:49,080 --> 01:47:52,240
talked about with Adam meaning
red, and the setting sun coming

1908
01:47:52,240 --> 01:47:55,440
down to the Earth, getting the
reddish hue that it gets.

1909
01:47:55,720 --> 01:47:58,360
Well, down to all that
symbolism, right?

1910
01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:03,960
And then now let's let's focus
on some teachings of Brigham

1911
01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:07,640
Young here.
What did, what did, what did

1912
01:48:07,640 --> 01:48:11,640
Brigham say the fall really
entail?

1913
01:48:12,280 --> 01:48:14,920
Right.
Simply him coming down and and

1914
01:48:15,120 --> 01:48:17,240
partaking of the fruits of the
the garden and.

1915
01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:19,520
And then what happens in his
veins?

1916
01:48:19,840 --> 01:48:20,920
Blood.
Blood.

1917
01:48:21,040 --> 01:48:22,680
Yeah, right.
OK, so we're seeing that

1918
01:48:22,680 --> 01:48:23,640
symbolism here.
We're.

1919
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:25,680
Seeing that symbolism all over
the place.

1920
01:48:25,680 --> 01:48:26,680
All over the place.
Now I'm.

1921
01:48:26,680 --> 01:48:28,000
Going to ask you another
question.

1922
01:48:29,440 --> 01:48:32,200
You may not want to go down this
road but I'm going to ask your

1923
01:48:32,200 --> 01:48:36,320
opinion.
It's Hugh Nibley and Adam God

1924
01:48:36,320 --> 01:48:39,520
guy.
When I read this, when I was

1925
01:48:40,080 --> 01:48:44,640
right off my mission, you know,
at BYUI and I bought this book,

1926
01:48:44,640 --> 01:48:47,440
like I said earlier, and I read,
I read, I, I knew about it.

1927
01:48:47,440 --> 01:48:49,280
I've known about Adam God since
I was 17.

1928
01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:54,360
I was 22 when I read this.
My mind was blown, blown.

1929
01:48:54,960 --> 01:48:59,320
I've read some things in like
Enoch the prophet where he

1930
01:48:59,320 --> 01:49:04,680
doesn't draw lines as close as
this, but I could not help that

1931
01:49:04,680 --> 01:49:07,440
he was an Adam God advocate when
I read this.

1932
01:49:08,720 --> 01:49:11,000
In fact, I actually, I have an
anecdotal story.

1933
01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:15,600
It's called the same one ever.
I was told by Fred Collier once

1934
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:21,400
that he back in the 70s or 80s
went to BYU and he asked you

1935
01:49:21,400 --> 01:49:26,280
nibbly what he thought about the
Adam God doctrine.

1936
01:49:26,640 --> 01:49:32,520
And he nibbly told him if I
wanted to talk about Adam God, I

1937
01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:34,760
would not quote Brigham Young
and get in trouble.

1938
01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:37,800
I would go talk about what the
ancients believed.

1939
01:49:38,280 --> 01:49:39,640
Yeah.
And then he gave him a, you

1940
01:49:39,640 --> 01:49:42,280
know, wrote down on a notepad a
bunch of books.

1941
01:49:42,280 --> 01:49:43,680
He said you can find these in
the library.

1942
01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:45,480
And then Fred went and found
them, and they were all in some

1943
01:49:45,880 --> 01:49:48,320
ancient language or whatever.
He couldn't even read them.

1944
01:49:48,440 --> 01:49:49,560
Right.
Yeah, He nibbled, probably

1945
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:52,440
passed it off without a second
thought, you know, can't read,

1946
01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:54,760
you know, Oh, I can read these.
I can check these out.

1947
01:49:54,760 --> 01:49:55,200
Can't.
Read each.

1948
01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:58,960
What the hell?
He nibbly could read 7 languages

1949
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:02,280
by the time he was 30 years old.
Oh, some.

1950
01:50:02,280 --> 01:50:05,000
Of three or four of them were
dead languages, yeah.

1951
01:50:05,680 --> 01:50:08,280
Yeah, yeah, the man was
brilliant, yeah.

1952
01:50:08,480 --> 01:50:13,200
Brilliant was conscripted as a
Sergeant in the Army at 30, even

1953
01:50:13,200 --> 01:50:14,440
though he already had a
doctorate.

1954
01:50:14,480 --> 01:50:16,120
Should have been, should have
been an officer.

1955
01:50:16,120 --> 01:50:19,720
I don't know how that happened,
but yeah, he was a doctor, you

1956
01:50:19,720 --> 01:50:22,440
know, had a doctorate already,
had already been teaching at the

1957
01:50:22,440 --> 01:50:25,400
university of one of the
universities in California,

1958
01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:26,320
right?
Yeah.

1959
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:31,440
There was a story, and I'm not
going to tell you who it comes

1960
01:50:31,440 --> 01:50:33,080
from.
I'll tell you off here who who

1961
01:50:33,080 --> 01:50:38,360
it came from.
Sure, but someone went to Hue,

1962
01:50:38,360 --> 01:50:41,040
they were riding in a car
together and asked him his

1963
01:50:41,040 --> 01:50:45,720
opinion on the Adam Gaga.
And this is much later in his

1964
01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:53,000
life and he said I have made a
promise not to talk about what I

1965
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:57,640
believe on the subject anymore
and then just left it at that.

1966
01:50:59,040 --> 01:51:01,320
So I've heard a derivative of
that story.

1967
01:51:01,560 --> 01:51:05,000
OK.
And it was, yeah, someone

1968
01:51:05,000 --> 01:51:08,040
driving in a car with him and
his wife and someone asked the

1969
01:51:08,040 --> 01:51:11,680
question and his wife says to
him, well, what do you think

1970
01:51:11,680 --> 01:51:14,920
about, you know, telling this
young man what you think you.

1971
01:51:15,440 --> 01:51:22,360
And he responds by saying I made
a covenant with the Lord when I

1972
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:24,680
asked about this, that I would
not discuss what he teach, what

1973
01:51:24,680 --> 01:51:25,920
he what he taught me on this.
OK.

1974
01:51:26,280 --> 01:51:30,240
All right, that's interesting.
Yeah, I haven't heard that exact

1975
01:51:30,240 --> 01:51:33,000
one, but it sounds like it's the
same story, right, With some

1976
01:51:33,000 --> 01:51:38,040
different variables, you know,
and and this, I'm going to get

1977
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:44,520
so much hate for this.
I'm going to say something now

1978
01:51:44,720 --> 01:51:47,280
that again, is going to rouse
some people up.

1979
01:51:48,280 --> 01:51:51,800
I honestly believe if you
listen, if you listen to Howie,

1980
01:51:51,800 --> 01:51:55,120
Hugh Nibley takes to task the
church.

1981
01:51:55,120 --> 01:51:57,880
He was the only guy that could
get away with all the time.

1982
01:51:57,880 --> 01:52:00,480
He was right.
What does it sound like to you?

1983
01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:05,120
Sounds almost a little fundy if
you didn't know any better.

1984
01:52:05,440 --> 01:52:09,480
I I I vaguely recall.
Maybe reading once something

1985
01:52:09,480 --> 01:52:12,480
where he talked about other
offshoot groups and it sounded

1986
01:52:12,800 --> 01:52:16,400
like he didn't really approve,
but he definitely was not

1987
01:52:16,760 --> 01:52:19,480
approving of the church's
direction right whatsoever,

1988
01:52:19,880 --> 01:52:22,720
right?
He was, he was a bit critical, I

1989
01:52:22,720 --> 01:52:25,320
mean, and he was the only one
that could get away with that.

1990
01:52:25,320 --> 01:52:28,800
No there.
Was a if you go read in one in

1991
01:52:28,800 --> 01:52:31,840
No, it's a in his book Temple,
Temple and Cosmos in a.

1992
01:52:32,760 --> 01:52:34,800
In it is a.
Great book in an article in that

1993
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:39,800
book called one eternal round, a
Hermetic view, one of the best

1994
01:52:39,800 --> 01:52:41,720
articles I've ever written read
in my life.

1995
01:52:42,800 --> 01:52:50,640
He says, and this isn't written
in 1976 or 77 and he gives a

1996
01:52:50,640 --> 01:52:53,680
list of things that like 10
points.

1997
01:52:53,680 --> 01:52:58,480
That's like just how offended or
I, I don't know if offended is

1998
01:52:58,480 --> 01:53:00,720
the word, but how pissed he is
at the members of the church.

1999
01:53:01,200 --> 01:53:05,400
And he says, you know, we, we
pride ourselves at being

2000
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:08,440
intellectual and coming to
college here at BYU and

2001
01:53:08,440 --> 01:53:12,320
studying.
And we, we, we prize and we, we,

2002
01:53:12,360 --> 01:53:15,000
we talk about how Joseph Smith
learned dead language, you know,

2003
01:53:15,200 --> 01:53:18,920
or studied languages in their
original form, you know, to, to

2004
01:53:18,920 --> 01:53:21,920
get back at the roots of the
Bible and stuff like that.

2005
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:28,920
And yet our manuals in the
church are bankrupt of of any

2006
01:53:29,440 --> 01:53:33,080
intellectual wealth, he says.
We are, we are in intellectual

2007
01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:35,600
poverty in our manuals in in the
church.

2008
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:41,920
Yeah, dude, one children.
That was in 76.

2009
01:53:42,160 --> 01:53:43,840
That's nuts.
And.

2010
01:53:43,960 --> 01:53:45,760
It's only been downhill from
there.

2011
01:53:47,000 --> 01:53:49,480
You know, I want to meet him on
the other side.

2012
01:53:49,480 --> 01:53:52,920
Yeah, there's a few guys that
are at the top of my list and

2013
01:53:52,920 --> 01:53:56,160
he's probably 3rd or 4th.
Oh, right, yeah.

2014
01:53:56,640 --> 01:53:57,520
Absolutely.
I I.

2015
01:53:57,520 --> 01:53:59,880
Just want to be like, OK bro,
spill it.

2016
01:53:59,880 --> 01:54:03,000
What do you know?
Yeah, so tell me everything

2017
01:54:03,000 --> 01:54:08,000
right back to.
The investiture of Michael,

2018
01:54:08,520 --> 01:54:10,880
Christ tells the disciples.
My Father then ordered the

2019
01:54:10,880 --> 01:54:12,960
angels to come and worship
Michael.

2020
01:54:14,400 --> 01:54:17,200
So.
Again, Michael and Adam are

2021
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:22,040
separate in this text, right?
But after Michael supplants

2022
01:54:22,160 --> 01:54:25,640
Satan as the the the new first
Angel.

2023
01:54:26,640 --> 01:54:28,000
And.
After the angels have already

2024
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:32,160
been worshipping Adam, which
Satan was refused to do and you

2025
01:54:32,160 --> 01:54:36,280
know was cast out of heaven for
Michael takes his place, and now

2026
01:54:36,280 --> 01:54:37,800
the angels are worshipping
Michael.

2027
01:54:39,880 --> 01:54:43,200
Come and worship Michael to
embrace him and bless him with

2028
01:54:43,200 --> 01:54:46,560
the perfect glory.
Michael sounded the trumpet of

2029
01:54:46,560 --> 01:54:49,200
life.
Not a single Angel remained in

2030
01:54:49,200 --> 01:54:52,280
heaven and on earth or in
paradise, but they all came and

2031
01:54:52,280 --> 01:54:54,760
greeted Michael with fragrance
in their hands.

2032
01:54:55,000 --> 01:54:58,120
Heaven and earth rejoice in the
remembrance of the glory of

2033
01:54:58,120 --> 01:55:03,520
Michael, the overseer of life.
Hang tight, I I want to go go

2034
01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:07,320
back to something.
Yep, Michael blows the Trump of

2035
01:55:07,320 --> 01:55:07,800
life.
Yes.

2036
01:55:08,680 --> 01:55:15,800
That's what I said.
What happens at the?

2037
01:55:15,800 --> 01:55:18,280
Resurrection the Trump.
The Trump yeah.

2038
01:55:19,160 --> 01:55:22,240
And the earliest Adam God
statements from Brigham Young we

2039
01:55:22,240 --> 01:55:26,040
have are actually before he came
out and said in 1852, Adam, you

2040
01:55:26,040 --> 01:55:28,280
know when Adam came to the
Garden of Eden, he came with a

2041
01:55:28,280 --> 01:55:30,000
celestial body and brought one
of his wives.

2042
01:55:30,360 --> 01:55:33,520
He was teaching this with
through the Michael Ave. and he

2043
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:36,840
was teaching for years in the
winter quarters.

2044
01:55:38,520 --> 01:55:41,360
And in that time period that
Michael the Archangel had the

2045
01:55:41,360 --> 01:55:44,040
keys of the resurrection, he'd
say that at 11 point in his

2046
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:46,720
discourse, and then another
point in his discourse, he'd say

2047
01:55:46,720 --> 01:55:48,760
you can't hold the keys of the
resurrection unless you're a

2048
01:55:48,760 --> 01:55:50,320
resurrected being, right?
Yeah.

2049
01:55:50,680 --> 01:55:51,920
And so he.
Was laying that down.

2050
01:55:54,720 --> 01:55:57,280
So yeah.
And so we have glory, we have

2051
01:55:57,280 --> 01:56:02,240
the Trump, the angels
worshipping him going forward,

2052
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:06,240
but we put Michael over mankind
that he might intercede on

2053
01:56:06,240 --> 01:56:08,760
behalf of the image of God at
all times.

2054
01:56:09,440 --> 01:56:14,000
And Peter said, asking Christ,
is there a greater Angel than

2055
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:16,960
Michael?
The Savior replied, there is no

2056
01:56:16,960 --> 01:56:19,800
greater Angel among all the
ranks I have created.

2057
01:56:19,880 --> 01:56:23,040
Did you not see the day when I
spoke to you of the glory of the

2058
01:56:23,040 --> 01:56:26,200
Father, that the Father brought
all the angels into his presence

2059
01:56:26,200 --> 01:56:29,920
and found none like Michael?
Angels do not come down to the

2060
01:56:29,920 --> 01:56:31,560
earth without the authority of
Michael.

2061
01:56:32,160 --> 01:56:34,880
If I tell you about these on
earth, it is fitting that I take

2062
01:56:34,880 --> 01:56:37,960
you to the heavens to show you
everything, including those who

2063
01:56:38,000 --> 01:56:40,320
have risen because of my chosen
Michael.

2064
01:56:42,200 --> 01:56:44,920
And then he takes them into
heaven in the in the that

2065
01:56:44,920 --> 01:56:48,000
narrative that has risen because
of Michael.

2066
01:56:48,240 --> 01:56:50,720
And angels do not come to
minister to the earth unless

2067
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:53,120
it's by Michael's authority.
Joseph Smith taught that.

2068
01:56:53,200 --> 01:56:55,520
Yes, he did.
Joseph Smith taught that in Page

2069
01:56:55,520 --> 01:56:58,080
like 157 or whatever of
teachings of the Prophet Joseph

2070
01:56:58,120 --> 01:56:59,200
Smith.
Yeah.

2071
01:56:59,200 --> 01:57:01,800
Whenever the gospel is revealed
from heaven to earth, it is by

2072
01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:05,160
Adam's authority.
Yep, absolutely, absolutely.

2073
01:57:05,600 --> 01:57:08,320
And and people will say, well,
why do you leave it veiled,

2074
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:10,080
right, If this is what he meant,
right?

2075
01:57:10,360 --> 01:57:14,320
If someone's an anti Adam God
guy they'll say well why leave

2076
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:17,760
it veiled?
OK, they're ready.

2077
01:57:17,760 --> 01:57:19,360
To kill him?
Yeah, they would.

2078
01:57:19,360 --> 01:57:21,400
Have shot the restoration in the
head from the get go.

2079
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:25,520
They it they were ready to kill
him because he says, but you

2080
01:57:25,640 --> 01:57:28,000
there's scripture here.
There's new, new scripture right

2081
01:57:28,000 --> 01:57:29,880
here.
They're like, oh, you're you're

2082
01:57:29,880 --> 01:57:32,280
done.
And I saw God and they're not

2083
01:57:32,280 --> 01:57:34,680
the they're did that whole
tranny thing.

2084
01:57:34,680 --> 01:57:36,440
Yeah, that's that's not really
it.

2085
01:57:36,440 --> 01:57:37,920
They were gonna kill him for
that.

2086
01:57:38,320 --> 01:57:45,880
Now you start doing something
silly, like upending millennia

2087
01:57:46,360 --> 01:57:52,840
of sectarian notion that the guy
that you blame for your status

2088
01:57:52,840 --> 01:57:55,480
in this life it's actually your
God.

2089
01:57:55,840 --> 01:58:00,360
Oh heck no.
But these earlier Christians had

2090
01:58:00,360 --> 01:58:01,960
a different view of Adam.
They.

2091
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:03,640
Did it's so.
Interesting to me.

2092
01:58:04,000 --> 01:58:07,000
Where, where did that change?
That's what I would want to find

2093
01:58:07,000 --> 01:58:09,800
out, because clearly Adam.
And.

2094
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:11,600
Again, I can't stress this
enough.

2095
01:58:11,680 --> 01:58:15,960
In the same text, the same book,
Adam and Michael, those separate

2096
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:18,680
beings are getting the same
degree of prominence and

2097
01:58:18,680 --> 01:58:21,920
exaltation and glory.
Yep, that's mind.

2098
01:58:22,000 --> 01:58:24,040
That blew my mind when I thought
about that.

2099
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:36,000
So I've thought about the
question, where did where did it

2100
01:58:36,000 --> 01:58:41,200
all change?
Right from viewing Adam, Michael

2101
01:58:41,200 --> 01:58:50,280
slash Adam as Exalted, to
looking at them, especially him

2102
01:58:50,280 --> 01:58:54,240
and Eve, as the reason for the
world's troubles.

2103
01:58:58,840 --> 01:59:03,920
Part of it, I think, this is
just my opinion, has to do with

2104
01:59:03,920 --> 01:59:11,920
power.
Because if Adam.

2105
01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:15,560
Is exalted, and we're his
offspring.

2106
01:59:17,240 --> 01:59:22,000
What does that do to a king?
What does that do to the

2107
01:59:22,000 --> 01:59:25,960
peasants?
Well, now all of a sudden that

2108
01:59:25,960 --> 01:59:27,840
whole thing about the divine
right of kings.

2109
01:59:28,440 --> 01:59:32,040
It's ours as well, Yeah.
And now all of a.

2110
01:59:32,040 --> 01:59:36,720
Sudden, you'd start asking
questions that might make

2111
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:39,880
monarchs a.
Little uncomfortable.

2112
01:59:40,240 --> 01:59:42,480
Fair enough.
Why do?

2113
01:59:42,480 --> 01:59:44,760
I hang my hat on that.
Well, let's just look at

2114
01:59:44,760 --> 01:59:48,200
versions of the Bible.
Why was the King James Version

2115
01:59:48,200 --> 01:59:55,360
authorized, but the Geneva Bible
was done away with or tried to

2116
01:59:55,360 --> 01:59:57,600
be done away with?
By the way, it was the Geneva

2117
01:59:57,600 --> 01:59:59,680
Bible that the founders of the
country read.

2118
01:59:59,680 --> 02:00:02,400
The most interesting Have you
ever read the Geneva Bible?

2119
02:00:02,800 --> 02:00:08,360
It is hard on kings.
It is hard on tyrants.

2120
02:00:09,000 --> 02:00:11,240
It.
It, it, it, and in some ways

2121
02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:13,200
I'll say it's probably a little
more correct.

2122
02:00:13,840 --> 02:00:16,320
Sure, right.
Especially when dealing with

2123
02:00:16,320 --> 02:00:22,840
those types of things.
So with that said, you, you, you

2124
02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:25,720
look at what they did just with,
with scripture, right?

2125
02:00:26,160 --> 02:00:30,240
Let's go back even further.
There was a reason they wanted

2126
02:00:30,240 --> 02:00:34,960
to make sure that nobody else
knew Latin but the priests.

2127
02:00:35,680 --> 02:00:36,560
Yes.
Yes.

2128
02:00:37,040 --> 02:00:39,960
Because now you don't get to
read the scriptures and

2129
02:00:39,960 --> 02:00:43,120
interpret them yourselves.
Yeah, absolutely it has.

2130
02:00:43,120 --> 02:00:49,440
To be filtered through.
A approved person person,

2131
02:00:49,440 --> 02:00:51,320
someone who's been vetted by the
Crown.

2132
02:00:51,480 --> 02:00:54,160
And the Pope?
This is just my idea, but I

2133
02:00:54,160 --> 02:00:57,320
think it all comes down to
tyranny and power.

2134
02:00:57,760 --> 02:01:00,200
Yeah, ultimately.
It does, and we know why.

2135
02:01:00,320 --> 02:01:01,840
Yep.
Anyone, anyone who's been

2136
02:01:01,840 --> 02:01:03,040
endowed knows why.
Yep.

2137
02:01:05,040 --> 02:01:08,400
So we've talked about in the
beginning, the premoral council.

2138
02:01:08,400 --> 02:01:13,280
We've talked about the debate,
the plan of salvation, Satan's

2139
02:01:13,280 --> 02:01:16,800
fall in premortally being cast
to the earth.

2140
02:01:16,800 --> 02:01:22,680
We've talked about the formation
of Adam, the resurrection of

2141
02:01:22,680 --> 02:01:29,720
Adam, you know, symbolically and
the ideas in ancient Egyptian

2142
02:01:29,720 --> 02:01:34,840
about God himself coming down to
to be Adam, literally Adam.

2143
02:01:38,440 --> 02:01:45,240
But let's talk about the fall of
Adam in the sense of Satan

2144
02:01:45,240 --> 02:01:51,200
coming to the Eden, OK, OK, I
shared with you earlier a

2145
02:01:51,320 --> 02:01:54,960
scripture from a book called the
Armenian Adam and Eve

2146
02:01:54,960 --> 02:01:57,440
Incarnation, right?
We haven't touched on that yet

2147
02:01:57,440 --> 02:01:58,960
in this podcast.
I mentioned it once, so we

2148
02:01:58,960 --> 02:02:00,040
haven't read anything from it
yet.

2149
02:02:00,480 --> 02:02:03,440
All the rest of that stuff was
was the investiture, right?

2150
02:02:04,040 --> 02:02:06,880
That was from 9th century Coptic
Christianity.

2151
02:02:06,880 --> 02:02:14,240
This is, we know that this was
copied down from an older

2152
02:02:14,240 --> 02:02:18,440
document by a scribe in 1657, an
Armenian scribe.

2153
02:02:18,560 --> 02:02:23,400
We don't know what the older
document was and how old it was,

2154
02:02:23,480 --> 02:02:25,840
but it was clearly copied down
from something else.

2155
02:02:26,240 --> 02:02:34,840
But the the, the copy that we
have is from 1657, Eve said in

2156
02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:37,800
her dialogue with Satan.
God said not to eat from the

2157
02:02:37,800 --> 02:02:42,160
fruit of that tree lest you die.
He said, when ye eat at that

2158
02:02:42,160 --> 02:02:45,440
very hour, you shall go forth
from this garden and you shall

2159
02:02:45,440 --> 02:02:48,360
surely die.
And the serpent spoke with Eve.

2160
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:52,920
That is not so.
God was a man like you when he

2161
02:02:52,920 --> 02:02:56,320
ate of the fruit of this tree.
He became God of all.

2162
02:02:56,680 --> 02:03:00,320
Because of that, God said to you
not to eat, lest you become an

2163
02:03:00,320 --> 02:03:06,440
equal God like himself.
So God was once a man like you

2164
02:03:06,800 --> 02:03:08,960
and became God by eating this
fruit.

2165
02:03:10,240 --> 02:03:12,120
That's talked about somewhere
else, isn't it?

2166
02:03:12,160 --> 02:03:14,840
Yes, it is.
Yes, it is.

2167
02:03:15,760 --> 02:03:19,800
That is talked about in certain.
Ordinances, certain ordinances

2168
02:03:20,000 --> 02:03:26,200
and that's another home run.
Yes, yes it is.

2169
02:03:26,200 --> 02:03:27,880
Put it that way.
Another bullseye.

2170
02:03:28,000 --> 02:03:31,640
Bullseye.
All right, Some other stuff

2171
02:03:31,640 --> 02:03:34,360
though, so.
We.

2172
02:03:34,360 --> 02:03:39,080
See in the divine investiture of
Michael that he refuses to

2173
02:03:39,080 --> 02:03:43,520
worship Adam, and God orders a
cherubim to beat him with his

2174
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:47,520
wings and cast him down to, to,
to the earth, right?

2175
02:03:48,920 --> 02:03:52,160
Obviously, as Latter Day Saints,
we know angels don't have wings.

2176
02:03:52,160 --> 02:03:53,480
These things are purely
symbolic.

2177
02:03:53,480 --> 02:03:54,800
It's important.
But we're going to talk about

2178
02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:56,200
some of these things.
OK?

2179
02:03:59,080 --> 02:04:03,280
This imagery is all over the
place as well about Satan being

2180
02:04:05,560 --> 02:04:10,520
cast down and beaten.
It's in a another book which

2181
02:04:10,520 --> 02:04:13,160
comes from like somewhere
between the 3rd and 7th century

2182
02:04:13,160 --> 02:04:17,360
called the Discourse on Abaton
K, which was written by a Bishop

2183
02:04:17,360 --> 02:04:25,720
of or copied by a Bishop of
Alexandria, Egypt in that time

2184
02:04:25,720 --> 02:04:29,560
period named Timothy.
And he was being asked questions

2185
02:04:29,560 --> 02:04:32,120
by an Elber in the church.
And he wrote him.

2186
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:35,920
Well, have you not read this?
And like, what's it?

2187
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:41,440
You know, and it's it's the same
thing that we're talking about

2188
02:04:41,440 --> 02:04:45,320
that we just it two the
language, some of the words are

2189
02:04:45,320 --> 02:04:49,200
different, but the exact thing
about Adam being the ideas.

2190
02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:51,720
Are the same the Adam?
Being worshipped, Satan saying

2191
02:04:51,720 --> 02:04:55,600
heck no, I was first.
It's all there and then him

2192
02:04:55,600 --> 02:05:00,880
being cast down except for one.
He's being cast down and after

2193
02:05:00,880 --> 02:05:06,840
causing some of the angels to
rebel, it says if my phone's not

2194
02:05:06,840 --> 02:05:09,920
dead I can maybe even pull it up
and just read some of.

2195
02:05:12,120 --> 02:05:14,840
That my.
Father sat him Adam upon a great

2196
02:05:14,840 --> 02:05:18,280
throne, and he placed on his
head a crown of glory, and put a

2197
02:05:18,280 --> 02:05:21,200
royal scepter in his hand.
And my father made every order

2198
02:05:21,200 --> 02:05:24,200
of angels in the heavens to come
and worship him, whether angels

2199
02:05:24,200 --> 02:05:26,600
or Archangel.
And all the hosts of heaven

2200
02:05:26,600 --> 02:05:29,480
worshipped God first of all.
And then they worshipped Adam,

2201
02:05:29,480 --> 02:05:31,800
saying, Hail, thou image and
likeness of God.

2202
02:05:32,320 --> 02:05:35,640
And he intended the the order of
the angels who were fashioned

2203
02:05:35,640 --> 02:05:38,760
before Adam should worship him.
And my father said unto him,

2204
02:05:38,760 --> 02:05:42,320
Their chief, Come thou thyself
worship my image and my

2205
02:05:42,320 --> 02:05:45,000
likeness.
And he, being of great pride,

2206
02:05:45,000 --> 02:05:49,520
drew himself up in a shameless
manner, and said, It is meat

2207
02:05:49,520 --> 02:05:52,800
that this man Adam should come
and worship me, for I existed

2208
02:05:52,800 --> 02:05:56,240
before he came into being.
And when my father saw his great

2209
02:05:56,240 --> 02:05:59,640
pride and that his wickedness
and evil doing were complete, he

2210
02:05:59,640 --> 02:06:02,280
commanded all the armies of
heaven, saying, Remove the

2211
02:06:02,280 --> 02:06:06,280
writing which is in the hand of
the proud one, strip off, strip

2212
02:06:06,280 --> 02:06:09,880
ye off his armor, and cast ye,
cast ye him down to the earth,

2213
02:06:10,120 --> 02:06:13,080
for his time hath come.
For he is the greatest of them

2214
02:06:13,080 --> 02:06:15,360
all.
He is the head over them, and is

2215
02:06:15,360 --> 02:06:17,280
like a king.
And he commanded them as the

2216
02:06:17,280 --> 02:06:19,160
general of an army commands his
soldiers.

2217
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:23,640
He is the head over them, and
their names are written on his

2218
02:06:23,640 --> 02:06:26,200
hand.
So he has the the authority.

2219
02:06:26,200 --> 02:06:29,480
Some there's language with the
the hand and the authority and

2220
02:06:29,480 --> 02:06:31,360
the names written there.
This.

2221
02:06:31,360 --> 02:06:34,880
Thus it is with the Cunning. 1
And the names of the angels were

2222
02:06:34,880 --> 02:06:38,400
written on his hand, and all the
angels gathered together to him,

2223
02:06:38,400 --> 02:06:40,880
and they did not wish to remove
the writing from his hands.

2224
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:44,160
There's the rebellion.
They didn't want to remove his

2225
02:06:44,160 --> 02:06:46,560
authority.
And my father commanded them to

2226
02:06:46,560 --> 02:06:50,840
bring a sharp reaping knife and
to stab him there with on the

2227
02:06:50,840 --> 02:06:54,000
side, and on that side right
through his body to the

2228
02:06:54,000 --> 02:06:56,800
vertebrae of the shoulders.
And he was unable to hold

2229
02:06:56,800 --> 02:06:58,840
himself up.
And straightway my father

2230
02:06:58,840 --> 02:07:02,800
commanded a mighty cherubim, and
he smoked him so like beating

2231
02:07:02,800 --> 02:07:06,160
him like the other, that's
right, smote him, and cast him

2232
02:07:06,160 --> 02:07:08,560
down from heaven upon the earth
because of his pride, and broke

2233
02:07:08,560 --> 02:07:11,760
his wings and his ribs, and make
him helpless.

2234
02:07:12,360 --> 02:07:15,320
And those who he had brought
with him became devils with him.

2235
02:07:16,240 --> 02:07:19,880
And my father made made them to
take Adam into paradise, and a

2236
02:07:19,880 --> 02:07:22,800
multitude of angels sang hymns
before him, and they left him

2237
02:07:22,800 --> 02:07:25,880
there, and he continued to
ascribe blessings unto God.

2238
02:07:27,680 --> 02:07:30,320
And.
I think we can leave that there.

2239
02:07:30,680 --> 02:07:36,480
So Drew Briany talks a lot about
the has talked about the

2240
02:07:36,480 --> 02:07:38,480
discourse on Habiton.
I just listened to a pod.

2241
02:07:38,520 --> 02:07:40,920
The reason I even was aware
aware of that was 'cause he just

2242
02:07:40,920 --> 02:07:46,360
did a podcast himself on that
and he talked about how that and

2243
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:49,640
in other places that are more
clear, the striking of the body

2244
02:07:49,880 --> 02:07:53,080
that he that Satan gets he.
Mentioned it on an episode we

2245
02:07:53,200 --> 02:07:57,040
did about I believe it.
Was DNC 78 in his annotated?

2246
02:07:57,240 --> 02:08:02,760
It's the ritual reversal of of
the places that he's being

2247
02:08:03,200 --> 02:08:09,160
smitten are places on the body
that are given promises in the

2248
02:08:09,280 --> 02:08:13,080
and the anointings.
And so it's the ritual reversal

2249
02:08:13,080 --> 02:08:18,680
of his covenants.
Yep, and everything there and so

2250
02:08:19,680 --> 02:08:23,960
super interesting all and the.
Ramifications to that are huge.

2251
02:08:23,960 --> 02:08:28,120
No, it gets better.
Listening to Mike Day and Dave

2252
02:08:28,120 --> 02:08:33,000
Butler on this on the Ward Radio
or Stick of Joseph podcast, they

2253
02:08:33,000 --> 02:08:34,920
reminded me about something that
I knew and then taught me

2254
02:08:34,920 --> 02:08:39,400
something that I didn't know,
something that I already made

2255
02:08:39,400 --> 02:08:45,320
connections with was that the
imagery the Hebrews had for

2256
02:08:45,320 --> 02:08:48,560
serifs are fiery, flaming
serpents.

2257
02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:57,080
OK, remember that.
And he goes on Dave Butler goes

2258
02:08:57,080 --> 02:09:01,200
on to say how when Isaiah gets
his calling as a prophet, for

2259
02:09:01,200 --> 02:09:04,320
some reason, he's in the holy of
Holies in the temple and he sees

2260
02:09:04,320 --> 02:09:08,280
two seraphs or the seraphim.
There's two and they're snake

2261
02:09:08,280 --> 02:09:13,600
like things on on on poles
because the the all the brazen

2262
02:09:13,600 --> 02:09:16,480
serpent thing that Moses made to
Save the Children of Israel that

2263
02:09:16,480 --> 02:09:18,080
was in the holy of Holies and
there was two of them.

2264
02:09:18,760 --> 02:09:22,520
Right.
And for some reason there and

2265
02:09:22,960 --> 02:09:25,800
envision one of them or in the
language that Isaiah says, one

2266
02:09:25,800 --> 02:09:29,040
of them comes down and has this
interaction with Isaiah, right

2267
02:09:29,320 --> 02:09:39,800
and all that come back to that.
Satan.

2268
02:09:39,800 --> 02:09:42,080
Is identified with a serpent?
Yep.

2269
02:09:42,080 --> 02:09:46,280
Allegorically, Yep.
And I'm going to bring a picture

2270
02:09:46,280 --> 02:09:47,840
of something to class before you
do this.

2271
02:09:48,280 --> 02:09:55,080
But but if you ask like a Jew,
like, why is it that God cursed

2272
02:09:55,080 --> 02:09:58,760
the serpent to crawl on its
belly when that's when it what

2273
02:09:58,760 --> 02:10:01,720
it already does?
You know, they'll say something

2274
02:10:01,720 --> 02:10:05,520
like, well, it used to be like
cattle and they have legs,

2275
02:10:05,520 --> 02:10:09,120
Therefore, but not, oh, the
punishment was that they don't

2276
02:10:09,120 --> 02:10:11,120
know that they have to to be on
their belly.

2277
02:10:11,600 --> 02:10:16,080
Well, what if it wasn't legs and
it was wings?

2278
02:10:16,760 --> 02:10:18,320
Yeah.
What did it say in the?

2279
02:10:18,320 --> 02:10:22,400
Discourse on avaton that the
angels broke his wings and beat

2280
02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:27,080
him up, broke his ribs, and
which is a symbol of procreative

2281
02:10:27,080 --> 02:10:30,560
power, according to Brigham
Young with and the allegory of

2282
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:33,120
eve being made from.
The.

2283
02:10:33,240 --> 02:10:36,880
Eve being made from the the rib
of Adam, and so they're taking

2284
02:10:36,880 --> 02:10:42,200
away all that power from him.
And so that might be the more

2285
02:10:42,200 --> 02:10:44,040
truer like.
So what we're left with in

2286
02:10:44,040 --> 02:10:48,880
Genesis is what I'm saying is
it's a highly edited version of

2287
02:10:48,880 --> 02:10:52,120
something else that was couched
with Bolic imagery, 'cause

2288
02:10:52,120 --> 02:10:53,720
obviously Satan doesn't have
wings.

2289
02:10:53,760 --> 02:10:57,840
He's obviously not a serpent,
but the wings are broken.

2290
02:10:57,840 --> 02:10:59,040
The ribs are broken.
Yep.

2291
02:10:59,960 --> 02:11:03,760
And we're left with the serpent
was cursed to crawl, you know,

2292
02:11:03,760 --> 02:11:06,760
but it used to fly, right?
Not, not, not crawl and not not

2293
02:11:06,760 --> 02:11:12,000
walk, but the and so the
question.

2294
02:11:12,000 --> 02:11:13,800
So I knew some of that already,
right?

2295
02:11:14,520 --> 02:11:17,680
But I, I hadn't belt on it.
But then the but he's Dave

2296
02:11:17,680 --> 02:11:19,200
Butler said something that blew
my mind.

2297
02:11:22,000 --> 02:11:24,840
Eve always swears that she was
beguiled, the serpent beguiled.

2298
02:11:26,320 --> 02:11:30,960
And I did eat and I see where
you're going.

2299
02:11:31,440 --> 02:11:34,360
And we're always convinced that
it's rhetoric.

2300
02:11:34,360 --> 02:11:38,400
Like we just we just read in the
Armenian Adam and Eve and the

2301
02:11:38,400 --> 02:11:41,360
incarnation.
Oh, you won't, you know, God ate

2302
02:11:41,360 --> 02:11:43,520
it and he became God.
So that's rhetoric, right?

2303
02:11:43,520 --> 02:11:46,120
And that's the beguiling.
Dave Butler took the stance.

2304
02:11:46,120 --> 02:11:48,040
I don't think the rhetoric was
the beguiling.

2305
02:11:48,040 --> 02:11:51,960
It was that he came down in
glory, in glory looking like a

2306
02:11:51,960 --> 02:11:55,920
seraph, looking like looking
like Christ, which is the the

2307
02:11:55,920 --> 02:11:58,680
imagery that the Hebrews
constructed on the seraph with

2308
02:11:58,680 --> 02:12:02,440
the with a brazen serpent, the
serpent with wings on the on the

2309
02:12:02,440 --> 02:12:08,680
staff being a symbol of Christ.
They did that intentionally to

2310
02:12:08,680 --> 02:12:14,560
show in the story, this older
story that Lucifer came in glory

2311
02:12:14,560 --> 02:12:17,480
to Eve, impersonating the
Savior, right?

2312
02:12:18,200 --> 02:12:22,160
And that his punishment was.
So maybe these accounts got a

2313
02:12:22,160 --> 02:12:23,680
little backwards, right?
Right.

2314
02:12:24,080 --> 02:12:27,120
But.
Then he's his, his wings are

2315
02:12:27,120 --> 02:12:30,200
broken, his ribs are broken, and
he smited on all these points

2316
02:12:30,200 --> 02:12:34,880
and, and, and all that, and then
he's removed right from, from

2317
02:12:35,000 --> 02:12:38,600
all vestiges of glory.
You know, any remnant are

2318
02:12:38,600 --> 02:12:41,920
pretending to symbols or forms
or fashions that he had.

2319
02:12:42,040 --> 02:12:44,160
You know that he had 'cause he
already had no authority at that

2320
02:12:44,160 --> 02:12:47,880
point, but he presented himself
as if he did, right?

2321
02:12:48,200 --> 02:12:50,240
You.
Know and that was the beguiling

2322
02:12:50,320 --> 02:12:58,840
of of of Eve was that I'm I'm
your brother and here eat this

2323
02:12:58,880 --> 02:13:01,720
and he but he came looking like
he had authority, yet looking

2324
02:13:01,720 --> 02:13:03,760
like someone they knew.
You have the name of someone

2325
02:13:03,760 --> 02:13:04,880
that they knew.
Yep.

2326
02:13:04,920 --> 02:13:09,480
And so the, the imagery we're
left with is the the broken

2327
02:13:09,480 --> 02:13:11,560
language of something that's
been heavily redacted that was

2328
02:13:11,840 --> 02:13:14,040
supposed to teach all of that
originally.

2329
02:13:14,280 --> 02:13:18,080
Right.
That's deep stuff, bro.

2330
02:13:18,160 --> 02:13:20,000
It is deep stuff.
That's awesome stuff.

2331
02:13:20,200 --> 02:13:31,130
Yeah, well, I think that might
be.

2332
02:13:31,330 --> 02:13:33,970
Did we get through it?
What I got dude, that was

2333
02:13:33,970 --> 02:13:36,960
awesome.
We'll just kill her then.

2334
02:13:37,160 --> 02:13:39,680
I love that if you.
Got more I'm good I.

2335
02:13:39,680 --> 02:13:42,560
Think that's a perfect place to
stop any questions, comments, or

2336
02:13:42,560 --> 02:13:45,160
rude remarks?
No, dude, that was awesome.

2337
02:13:45,560 --> 02:13:47,920
That was awesome.
Everybody, you should go to his

2338
02:13:47,920 --> 02:13:52,320
class.
Everybody. 7:00 PM Tuesdays.

2339
02:13:52,840 --> 02:13:55,280
When's this going to start?
I think July 2nd.

2340
02:13:55,480 --> 02:13:59,200
July 2nd.
K, Do you want me to release

2341
02:13:59,200 --> 02:14:02,000
this before or after you start
your class?

2342
02:14:02,000 --> 02:14:04,080
Because I have two schools of
thought here, OK?

2343
02:14:04,080 --> 02:14:08,240
If we didn't go as deep into it
as what you're going to go in

2344
02:14:08,240 --> 02:14:11,160
class with it, it might get
people there.

2345
02:14:12,560 --> 02:14:17,120
If this was pretty.
Much all of it.

2346
02:14:17,200 --> 02:14:19,880
I don't want to spoil it until
after you've done your class,

2347
02:14:20,160 --> 02:14:22,160
you know I.
Don't know if it it depends on

2348
02:14:22,160 --> 02:14:24,000
how.
I'm toying with several ideas

2349
02:14:24,000 --> 02:14:27,280
myself, like because there's
some people I want to be there

2350
02:14:27,280 --> 02:14:33,320
who have availability issues.
And so it's like, do I do one

2351
02:14:33,400 --> 02:14:36,320
every two weeks?
And do I do a different lesson

2352
02:14:36,320 --> 02:14:40,120
each time?
Or do I do and offer it twice

2353
02:14:40,120 --> 02:14:43,560
during a month but have the same
lesson for and I hope people can

2354
02:14:43,560 --> 02:14:45,840
make it at different times and
then like each month will be a

2355
02:14:45,840 --> 02:14:49,480
different lesson and do several
lessons like teachers do in

2356
02:14:49,480 --> 02:14:50,960
school, right?
I do teach the same lesson

2357
02:14:50,960 --> 02:14:53,480
multiple times, right?
I don't know if I'm how I want

2358
02:14:53,480 --> 02:14:55,640
to do that yet.
I'm still pondering on that.

2359
02:14:56,680 --> 02:14:59,200
We went fairly deep.
I don't.

2360
02:14:59,200 --> 02:15:02,120
But it's going to depend on how
each class goes really, truly.

2361
02:15:02,240 --> 02:15:03,520
OK.
All right.

2362
02:15:04,080 --> 02:15:06,240
I'll tell you what you think
about it for a couple days and

2363
02:15:06,240 --> 02:15:08,880
then shoot me, shoot me a text
or something and let me know

2364
02:15:08,880 --> 02:15:11,600
what you want me to do.
Because if you want me to hold

2365
02:15:11,600 --> 02:15:13,960
it till after you have the
lesson, I get it.

2366
02:15:14,240 --> 02:15:16,200
If you want to do it before, I
get that too.

2367
02:15:16,200 --> 02:15:17,720
So it's completely in your.
Yeah.

2368
02:15:17,720 --> 02:15:21,040
I I could see pros to both, both
of those you know.

2369
02:15:21,920 --> 02:15:23,700
That's why I'm making you choose
MM.

2370
02:15:23,700 --> 02:15:27,280
Hmm, yeah.
So no, no more commentary.

2371
02:15:27,880 --> 02:15:31,000
No, dude, no recap.
No, I think you learn anything,

2372
02:15:31,280 --> 02:15:32,080
dude.
I learned a lot.

2373
02:15:32,520 --> 02:15:34,880
I learned a lot.
Look, here's the thing, right?

2374
02:15:35,080 --> 02:15:38,000
And, and I think, I think this
would be be my ending

2375
02:15:38,000 --> 02:15:44,280
commentary.
We mock the sectarians for the

2376
02:15:44,800 --> 02:15:45,720
Bible.
Bible.

2377
02:15:45,720 --> 02:15:48,440
We have a Bible, right?
I think we should.

2378
02:15:48,440 --> 02:15:53,840
But yes, we do as we should.
OK, glad we're on the same page

2379
02:15:54,840 --> 02:15:56,400
but aren't.
We guilty of the same thing in a

2380
02:15:56,400 --> 02:16:02,320
little bit. touch�� scripture.
Scripture we got scripture.

2381
02:16:02,920 --> 02:16:05,360
What about all this other stuff
floating out here that we have

2382
02:16:05,360 --> 02:16:08,520
never touched my mind?
'S been blown and I'm glad for

2383
02:16:08,520 --> 02:16:10,920
those guys in the church like
Dave Butler and Mike Day talking

2384
02:16:10,920 --> 02:16:13,440
about some of this because it's
really got my fire going and it

2385
02:16:13,440 --> 02:16:15,160
helps me put together a good
lesson.

2386
02:16:15,680 --> 02:16:18,640
You know, the the seraph
connection with Satan that him

2387
02:16:18,640 --> 02:16:24,400
coming in in the vestiges of
authority and then tying it to

2388
02:16:24,400 --> 02:16:28,720
the these, you know that all the
right symbols, these other

2389
02:16:28,720 --> 02:16:32,240
apocryphal, they're not really
apocryphal, but extra canonical

2390
02:16:32,559 --> 02:16:37,920
scriptures that used to be had.
And it that that just blew my

2391
02:16:37,920 --> 02:16:40,400
mind.
But I really love, as I was

2392
02:16:40,400 --> 02:16:44,040
putting this together, how it
came out that early Christians

2393
02:16:44,040 --> 02:16:46,240
did not believe Adam was a
depraved, fallen man.

2394
02:16:46,240 --> 02:16:51,480
No.
No, there, there is no evidence

2395
02:16:51,480 --> 02:16:56,080
of that whatsoever.
Again, I don't think we really

2396
02:16:56,080 --> 02:16:59,040
start seeing the demonization of
Adam and Eve until after the

2397
02:16:59,040 --> 02:17:04,200
Nicaean Council.
And you have to look at at

2398
02:17:04,200 --> 02:17:06,400
history here to get a full
picture.

2399
02:17:07,200 --> 02:17:12,000
Again, the Nicaean Council was
not about find me the most

2400
02:17:12,000 --> 02:17:15,120
correct books so I can get it to
the people.

2401
02:17:15,280 --> 02:17:18,680
That's not what that was.
That was about consolidating

2402
02:17:18,680 --> 02:17:21,959
power.
For the first time ever, Rome

2403
02:17:22,000 --> 02:17:27,680
was going to have one God.
And because it was one God, they

2404
02:17:27,680 --> 02:17:30,680
felt that that one God should
have a uniform text.

2405
02:17:31,400 --> 02:17:35,480
But he had to get all the other
bishops and elders and deacons

2406
02:17:35,480 --> 02:17:37,000
to buy in on it.
Yeah.

2407
02:17:37,400 --> 02:17:40,799
And it was a political exercise.
And because of that, what you

2408
02:17:40,799 --> 02:17:46,920
get in a lot of ways, even
though it's valuable beyond

2409
02:17:46,920 --> 02:17:51,120
imagination, it's not
everything.

2410
02:17:52,080 --> 02:17:56,520
And it causes people to fumble
in the dark.

2411
02:17:56,639 --> 02:17:58,280
Yep, we.
Learned the the the whole point

2412
02:17:58,280 --> 02:18:01,480
of the Book of Mormon was to
teach us that plain and precious

2413
02:18:01,480 --> 02:18:03,559
things have been removed right
that's.

2414
02:18:03,559 --> 02:18:05,280
Not the deep mysteries of the
Kingdom.

2415
02:18:05,280 --> 02:18:07,400
That's just the plain and
precious parts, yeah.

2416
02:18:07,719 --> 02:18:10,520
And we're yeah.
And it's crazy to me.

2417
02:18:10,520 --> 02:18:14,639
And so back to Jews not stopping
being Jews when Christianity

2418
02:18:14,639 --> 02:18:16,480
comes on the scene, right?
And then you have different

2419
02:18:16,480 --> 02:18:19,120
variants of Christianity.
Then you have pretenders.

2420
02:18:19,200 --> 02:18:22,559
Yep, like the Gnostics, who I
take a kind of a hard line

2421
02:18:22,559 --> 02:18:24,799
against them.
But there are they're valuable

2422
02:18:24,799 --> 02:18:29,600
to an extent, as long as you
realize that that just like some

2423
02:18:29,600 --> 02:18:32,920
late Jewish texts, they might
say some cool things, but you

2424
02:18:32,920 --> 02:18:34,799
got to know where they're coming
from, right?

2425
02:18:34,799 --> 02:18:37,799
And so, and you, if you've read
the New Testament, this is what,

2426
02:18:37,879 --> 02:18:42,120
when I realized some of these
things like John and Paul and

2427
02:18:42,600 --> 02:18:47,040
and Peter especially, and Jude,
they all do, they talk about in

2428
02:18:47,040 --> 02:18:48,520
their epistles.
They're dealing with the

2429
02:18:48,520 --> 02:18:50,080
Gnostics then.
Yep.

2430
02:18:50,799 --> 02:18:54,840
And they're teaching heresies in
the church that are so close to

2431
02:18:54,840 --> 02:18:59,360
certain things.
But John says, if any man comes

2432
02:18:59,360 --> 02:19:02,639
to you and says that Christ has
not come in the flesh, he is

2433
02:19:02,639 --> 02:19:05,080
Antichrist.
Right, because.

2434
02:19:05,080 --> 02:19:07,719
The Gnostics didn't believe in a
literal resurrection, and so

2435
02:19:07,719 --> 02:19:09,879
Christ to them.
They say they believe in Christ,

2436
02:19:10,040 --> 02:19:11,879
but Christ was a spirit.
Yep.

2437
02:19:11,879 --> 02:19:13,680
Or an image or a metaphor or
whatever.

2438
02:19:14,320 --> 02:19:17,280
But they were claiming secret
things that Mark taught.

2439
02:19:18,240 --> 02:19:21,160
Yep.
And they, so they had, they had

2440
02:19:21,160 --> 02:19:25,600
a claim to Apostolic authority,
but they were not teaching true

2441
02:19:25,600 --> 02:19:27,799
doctrine.
So John's rebuttal was if

2442
02:19:27,799 --> 02:19:30,639
they're teaching you to deny the
resurrection, they're

2443
02:19:30,639 --> 02:19:33,559
Antichrist, right?
And other things too, you know,

2444
02:19:33,799 --> 02:19:41,240
And so in a sense, it's not a
litmus test that's forever.

2445
02:19:41,240 --> 02:19:42,879
Cause like, OK, now we're
Mormons.

2446
02:19:42,879 --> 02:19:44,160
And then there's the Christian
world.

2447
02:19:44,480 --> 02:19:47,680
The Christians are gonna say,
yeah, we believe that Christ

2448
02:19:47,680 --> 02:19:50,920
came in the flesh.
So we can't say that they're

2449
02:19:50,920 --> 02:19:53,560
Antichrist on that note, but we
do.

2450
02:19:54,000 --> 02:19:58,400
I would say that there's other
heresies in sectarian

2451
02:19:58,400 --> 02:20:01,200
Christianity that even though
they say, yeah, Christ came in

2452
02:20:01,200 --> 02:20:04,320
the flesh there, there are
heresies that are Antichrist.

2453
02:20:04,360 --> 02:20:06,600
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

2454
02:20:07,240 --> 02:20:13,840
And if we want to stand up
against that kind of scrutiny,

2455
02:20:14,840 --> 02:20:18,400
we are going to have to do it
from the place, from a place

2456
02:20:18,760 --> 02:20:22,560
where we just explored.
We're going to have to go deep.

2457
02:20:22,560 --> 02:20:25,520
We're going to have to show that
these things were understood in

2458
02:20:25,520 --> 02:20:31,280
antiquity, right?
People will often say, well, how

2459
02:20:31,280 --> 02:20:35,040
do you judge a hierarchy of
sources right within the

2460
02:20:35,040 --> 02:20:36,760
Restoration?
I tend to be like, well, it's

2461
02:20:36,760 --> 02:20:39,040
Joseph.
Joseph's the first, yeah.

2462
02:20:39,640 --> 02:20:42,560
Joseph Zealton.
Yeah, I even to the point of I

2463
02:20:42,560 --> 02:20:44,920
look at the Bible and Book of
Mormon through his commentary

2464
02:20:44,920 --> 02:20:51,320
right now.
If we go back even further, in

2465
02:20:51,320 --> 02:20:55,520
my opinion, you can look at the
Council of Nicaea and say, well,

2466
02:20:55,520 --> 02:20:57,040
that was the point of
derailment.

2467
02:20:57,080 --> 02:21:01,400
Totally right.
And so anything older than that,

2468
02:21:01,400 --> 02:21:05,080
I feel like you've got to give
some credence with a lot of

2469
02:21:05,080 --> 02:21:07,040
discernment, right?
Yeah.

2470
02:21:07,160 --> 02:21:11,560
But if if the ancients
understood that Adam was not a

2471
02:21:11,560 --> 02:21:16,480
fallen man and let's just look
at the total or excuse me, not

2472
02:21:16,480 --> 02:21:18,840
the man that caused all the
problems in him.

2473
02:21:20,440 --> 02:21:22,960
And then we have all the
Egyptian evidence.

2474
02:21:23,960 --> 02:21:27,960
And then we have all of these
other books of scripture

2475
02:21:27,960 --> 02:21:31,000
floating around that's tell the
same thing.

2476
02:21:32,800 --> 02:21:38,040
And nowhere in Scripture do I
find any place that really ever

2477
02:21:38,200 --> 02:21:43,280
tells you Adam is in hell or
Adam is.

2478
02:21:43,440 --> 02:21:45,880
Original sin's not even in the
Bible, no at all.

2479
02:21:45,960 --> 02:21:47,880
No.
The closest thing, oddly, is

2480
02:21:47,880 --> 02:21:50,600
actually in the book of Moses
where it says there come among

2481
02:21:50,720 --> 02:21:53,320
the children of men that saying
that the Son of God has a tone

2482
02:21:53,320 --> 02:21:56,760
for original guilt, right?
Oh, that's not the same thing.

2483
02:21:56,880 --> 02:21:59,000
It's odd language to me.
I don't know what to do with

2484
02:21:59,000 --> 02:22:00,560
that.
But it's not original sin.

2485
02:22:00,560 --> 02:22:03,760
An original sin, The doctrine
nor the term are anywhere in the

2486
02:22:03,760 --> 02:22:06,240
Old or New Testament, right?
Right.

2487
02:22:06,560 --> 02:22:12,120
And so when when I look at that
and I look at all the the

2488
02:22:12,120 --> 02:22:15,640
surrounding evidence and I see
what has been read into

2489
02:22:15,640 --> 02:22:17,800
Scripture.
Right, that's exactly what it

2490
02:22:17,800 --> 02:22:21,240
is.
We have an advantage that we

2491
02:22:21,240 --> 02:22:25,040
have not yet fully tried to
stand on, sure.

2492
02:22:25,440 --> 02:22:29,360
And when we do do that, we'll
make some people nervous.

2493
02:22:29,440 --> 02:22:32,720
But as of right now, we haven't.
But I believe it's these kind of

2494
02:22:32,720 --> 02:22:38,760
conversations, these kind of
thoughts that will will

2495
02:22:38,760 --> 02:22:40,760
ultimately lead us to that
point.

2496
02:22:40,760 --> 02:22:42,760
But we got to be brave enough
and bold enough to take the

2497
02:22:42,760 --> 02:22:45,680
step.
And I know for a lot of folks

2498
02:22:45,960 --> 02:22:50,520
that are maybe in more
structured, correlated kind of

2499
02:22:50,520 --> 02:22:54,160
things, this this is spooky
stuff.

2500
02:22:54,160 --> 02:22:56,360
It is we, we.
We did touch on a few spooky

2501
02:22:56,360 --> 02:22:58,600
things.
But.

2502
02:22:58,600 --> 02:23:03,160
I would just say that the
evidence, if we can call it

2503
02:23:03,160 --> 02:23:06,600
that, that I presented is I
think like look at what Joseph

2504
02:23:06,600 --> 02:23:09,120
said and what these other
Christians, right have said,

2505
02:23:09,960 --> 02:23:13,920
nearly identical, nearly
identical down to the sandals on

2506
02:23:13,920 --> 02:23:19,880
Michael's feet, right in, in
section 78, the fall of Satan,

2507
02:23:19,880 --> 02:23:24,840
the heavens weeping over him and
down to talking about Moses's

2508
02:23:24,840 --> 02:23:31,680
Egyptian upbringing, his name,
Michael's name and Moses clearly

2509
02:23:31,680 --> 02:23:35,480
intentionally putting Egyptian
rituals regarding the

2510
02:23:35,480 --> 02:23:38,800
resurrection, which are probably
holdovers themselves from

2511
02:23:38,840 --> 02:23:41,880
Abraham.
Yep, he left that.

2512
02:23:41,880 --> 02:23:44,920
There is a breadcrumb the the
breath of life thing to me.

2513
02:23:44,920 --> 02:23:48,480
I cannot double down on that
enough, right As a symbol of the

2514
02:23:48,480 --> 02:23:49,520
resurrection.
That's right.

2515
02:23:49,520 --> 02:23:51,520
They're staring us in the face
the whole time.

2516
02:23:51,960 --> 02:23:56,080
Yep, absolutely.
Well dude, that was good stuff.

2517
02:23:56,800 --> 02:23:57,680
Thank you.
Awesome.

2518
02:23:57,760 --> 02:23:58,880
Glad you enjoyed it.
Let's do it.

2519
02:23:58,880 --> 02:24:00,240
Again, we will.
Awesome.

2520
02:24:00,240 --> 02:24:01,720
All right.
Bye everybody.