Episode 137: Coming To The Fulness Series-An Unlikely Mormon W/Adam Hosey

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So I've been wanting to talk to
folks who've made the jump to

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Mormon fundamentalism and their
lived experiences in making

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those changes.
Now, to start this series off, I

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have a real treat for you today
as Adam Hosey joins me on the

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podcast.
Now, Adam's story is pretty

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unique in that he went from
never being a Mormon at all

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straight into Mormon
fundamentalism.

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We talk about his childhood, his
Wilder younger years, and the

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events that led him to realize
that he needed to make some life

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changes, and finally to his
acceptance of the restored

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gospel.
We then move into his

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experiences and interactions
with other fundamentalists as

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he's learning more about the
religion.

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Now.
All along the way, we get into

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some pretty deep conversations
about gospel topics, ideas, and

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doctrines and wrap it all up by
how Adam and his family are

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adjusting now to life in their
new faith.

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Now, all through this
conversation with Adam, if

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you're like me, you might start
to see that there are those who

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are ready and willing to embrace
the restored gospel.

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If we can look past, maybe some
of the outward appearances.

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Stick around for a fascinating
conversation on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
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notes and get yours today.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Hey, Adam, what's going on?

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Dave Sanders, how you doing,
man?

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I'm doing good, dude.
So I got, I gotta tell you, I,

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I've been wanting to do this for
probably three or four months

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with you to sit down and have
this conversation, 'cause

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you're, you're somewhat of
peculiar in the sense that you,

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you went from like never a
Mormon at all.

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And you like skip that LDS phase
and you just went great for

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fundamentalism, right?
Which in some ways I'm guessing

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probably has, has some benefit,
right?

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You don't have to untrain old
habits or something like that,

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right?
But at the same time, I mean,

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dude, you went right from dry
land to the deep end of the

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pool.
I mean, there, there was no

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screwing around for you.
So, so real quick tell, tell

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everyone kind of where you're
from, you know, maybe your

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spiritual or religious
background.

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Let's let's get the full story
of who you are 'cause I feel

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like it's your story and and I
want to get it told because I

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think there's a lot of things
here that's going to resonate

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with some people.
Yeah, so first of all, I'm, I'm

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flattered that you have had the
desire to talk to me, but I also

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partially think you're nuts
'cause I feel like I'm really

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boring.
But that said, it is it is at

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like statistically it's an
unusual story.

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You don't find a lot of people
in fundamentalism that sort of

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fit this profile.
But that's kind of the shame of

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it in my mind, if we were doing
our part as servants of the Lord

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to broadcast this message to the
audience that needed it most in

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a way that was effective for
them to hear it.

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I think my story would be super
boring and you'd never have any

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interest in interviewing me
because you'd be like, OK, well,

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this is kind of how everybody
gets into this.

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So I would, I would just start
with that.

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Now, as far as the background
goes, I was so I was born and

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raised outside of Chicago.
I come from a real blue collar

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kind of a place.
I was raised in a family that.

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Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Are you a Bears fan?

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No, I was.
I'm.

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I'm glad you gave that up.
That's.

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No, I, I, I, I was, I just don't
really watch football that much

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anymore.
But the Mccaskey family were

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just so frustrating in their
ownership that I, I gave up on

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it eventually.
And a boy.

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And a boy, there's always room
here if you want to be a

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cheesehead.
I'm saying I got room.

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You can just jump on this wagon.
It's good.

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Yeah, You know, there's probably
very few things that see, like,

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I can't help myself in terms of
like, my, my ingrained childhood

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prejudices.
So like, if I was gonna smack

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the end button on this, on this
conference call, it would be you

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trying to convince me to be a
Packers fan.

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So maybe we should just move
past that.

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But we'll move past.
I was, I was raised in what I

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like to call.
So you know how there's like,

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there's like Jewish people and
then there's like ethnically

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Jewish people that are not
necessarily practicing Jewish

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people.
I like to call my family that.

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I was raised in ethnically
Catholic.

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So we were Catholic, but like,
really like we had, we would go

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to church on holidays and
whenever grandma was in town and

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we did so, So you know, in, in
Mormonism, right, we, we, we

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called it the breaking of the
bread and the blessing of the

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wine or the blessing and
breaking of the bread and the,

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the wine, the sacrament.
In Catholicism, there are 7

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sacraments and you sort of
methodically go through most of

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them.
You can't really go through, I

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mean, I guess you could go
through all of them, but like

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one of them is being, you know,
ordained a priest.

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The other one is getting
married.

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And in Catholicism, those two
things are generally

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incompatible.
So most people never actually

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get all seven.
But so we would go through the,

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the sacraments, what Mormonism,
we would call ordinances, we

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would go to church on holidays
and when grandma was in town

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and, you know, very rarely, my
mom would just be overcome with

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guilt about something.
And so we'd go to confession and

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that was about it.
And for the most part, and that

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sounds like a lot, but like, if
you're Catholic, you're real

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like true blue Catholic.
That's that's like the bare

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minimum to even pretend to be
one.

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And my dad never went.
So my dad never went to church.

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It was only my mom and my
grandmother.

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And that was kind of the bulk of
my religious upbringing when I

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was 16.
That would have been in 2005.

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That was around the time that
like, new atheism was like, you

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know, sort of like trendy and.
Yeah, like subversive.

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And it was like the thing that
you did if you were a

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contrarian.
And so I read The God Delusion

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by Richard Dawkins.
And then I remember I told my

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mom I was like, I don't believe
in God.

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This stuff's not real anymore.
And she, you know, cried.

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And despite having never really
brought us to church.

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And.
And so then from there until the

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beginning of a profound and
complex conversion experience, I

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was just generally irreligious.
Like I, I, I kind of sort of

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vacillated back and forth
between the idea that maybe God

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is real, maybe God is not.
But I didn't have much of like a

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backing.
I didn't have much foundation.

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I had no firm foundation.
Certainly my, my philosophy of

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anything.
See, I, I try to be a very

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thoughtful person.
And so my question then was

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like, if God's not real, what
should I be doing with my time?

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And so I ended up at this kind
of like, call it fun nihilism,

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you know, almost like, not ultra
hedonistic because I recognize

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that people that were just super
hedonistic generally descended

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into personal chaos and sadness
and depravity.

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But I had this idea that, you
know, those things that were

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enjoyable without, like, serious
repercussions.

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Like, obviously you can't, you
know, drink 30 beers without

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feeling like hell the next day.
But those things that were

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generally enjoyable must be
good, and those things that were

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generally unenjoyable must be
bad, with maybe the exception

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of, you know, physical fitness,
right?

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Working out sucks, but we know
we're supposed to do it from

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evolutionary perspective.
And so that was kind of like my

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mentality about right and wrong
until I got on this path which

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we can get there so.
Yeah.

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Well, let me ask a couple
questions here real quick.

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What was your experience like
when you were going to church as

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a young man On those rare
occasions, like when your mom,

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you, you said when your mom was
overridden with guilt and she's

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like, everybody's going to
confession, jump in the car.

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Did you enjoy that at all?
I mean no.

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OK, no, no.
I, I, I, I So I, I love my

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parents deeply.
I don't say anything that I'm

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about to say with any real
disparagement.

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It's just an honest assessment
and analysis of the context in

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which we were brought up.
But I never had, I never had a

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firm backing.
I was never grounded in the

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reasons why these sacraments are
what we might call ordinances

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and Mormonism were important or
why church was important.

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You know, I, I used to sort of
think of God as kind of just

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like this petty hall monitor
that was constantly

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interrogating your thoughts all
the time.

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Because I mean, in Catholicism,
one of the things that you hear

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is that not only are we all
sinners, but we're sort of all

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mortal sinners, right?
Like we're kind of all just

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right on the brink of going to
hell constantly.

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Like in and in Catholicism, you
know, hell is eternal damnation.

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I mean, you might, you might,
you know, go to confession and

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then most people will wind up in
purgatory.

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But I mean, like in Catholicism,
the general teaching, and I

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don't know if this is the actual
like if this is in the Catechism

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of the Catholic Church, but but
the general cultural

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understanding was you're sort of
on the brink of going to hell

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all the time, even when you're a
young child.

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And that's a weird, that's a
weird way of thinking about your

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relationship to God.
And it also is a very heavy

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burden if you're a young child
that recognizes that that's a

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really bad place to which I do
not want to go.

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But also I don't have as much
control over my actions and

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thoughts as I would like to
because I'm nine years old, for

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example.
So, so like I used to get my

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brain into this infinite
feedback loop where I would

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think, well, so God knows all my
thoughts, but what if I swear at

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God?
And then I would swear at God in

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my mind.
And then I'd be like, no, no,

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no, no, no, I can't do that.
I'm really sorry.

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Well, what if I, what if I can't
avoid it?

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And then I do it again.
And I would it'd be like this

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weird cycle of of constantly
thinking that I was on the verge

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of doing something that would
send me to hell as even a nine

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year old.
And so it was either one of

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those things where I myself
would just start to become like

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racked with guilt for what are
fairly innocuous child

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behaviors, or I just didn't buy
it.

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You know, part of that part of
me just went, well, hey, wait a

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minute.
You know, if this if this Jesus

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fella is so friendly and nice
and his Father in heaven is so

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forgiving, then why is it so
easy for me to go to hell?

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And so I never enjoyed it.
It was just a very like either

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boring and tedious or mentally
torturous experience for the

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most part.
Gotcha, gotcha.

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You know, that's been, that's
been one of the knocks I think

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on organized religion for for
quite some time, right?

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Like, I think, I think guilt can
be healthy, right?

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If if you do something and, and
you know, the spirit convicts

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you, I and it causes change, I
think that's healthy.

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00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:30,040
Shame, on the other hand, I tend
to look at and that's, I think

223
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:35,360
used more from the pulpit than
maybe we would like to admit,

224
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,480
right?
With an organized religion And

225
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,440
I, I look at things like
constant shame or, or, you know,

226
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,640
that feeling of being on the
verge of going to hell and

227
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:52,440
especially as a young kid.
I mean, I, I can't imagine why

228
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,960
people keep signing back up for
that type of, of thought, right?

229
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:57,840
I mean, that's, that's rough
stuff.

230
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,120
What was it about the New
Atheism that appealed to you?

231
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,520
Well, so let me answer that
question, but first let me go

232
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,360
back to the guilt point that you
made because I would just like

233
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,880
to add 1 extra thing.
So I think the other problem,

234
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,080
and this is kind of one of the
the beauties of Mormon doctrine,

235
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,520
and we can get into this too, is
that there was not much in the

236
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,800
way of proportionality in the
Catholic Church.

237
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,000
So like when you go to
confession, they give you what

238
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,160
you call penance, which is like
you're going to say a certain

239
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,640
number of prayers or do a
certain number of good things,

240
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,280
and then you will have your
forgiveness, which is kind of a

241
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,760
weird concept anyway, that the
priest might know what God wants

242
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,400
from you in order to be
forgiven.

243
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,840
But, but let's assume that it is
true just for the sake of this

244
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,560
argument.
There's not a lot of

245
00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:46,000
proportionality beyond that.
So the penance would be much

246
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,040
worse if if the sin that you
committed was really, really

247
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,400
terrible.
But the basic premise was most

248
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,680
of the sins you were committing
were actually mortal sins.

249
00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:56,680
That's why you're going to
confession is because you don't

250
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:59,800
want to go to hell.
And so I think the other problem

251
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,840
with guilt, I agree with you,
it's healthy, especially if it

252
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,760
affects change.
But the other problem with guilt

253
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,640
is that it must necessarily be
proportional or else it'll be

254
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,880
ineffective.
It's either going to paralyze

255
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,400
you or it's going to make you
not care.

256
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,400
I mean, you know, you can
imagine a child, right?

257
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,640
So, so you know, when you have a
kid, your kid does something

258
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,040
dumb.
You might be like, hey, go stand

259
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,640
in time out for 5 minutes.
If you could do something mean

260
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,280
spirited and crappy and it's the
fifth time they've done it now

261
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,720
you might send her to their room
for a couple hours and

262
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,920
eventually, if they keep doing
it, then you might ground them

263
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,280
for a week, right.
Like there's, there's

264
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,560
proportionality to the
consequence that your child

265
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,800
receives.
But in, and like I said, I don't

266
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,120
know if this is in the Catechism
of the Catholic Church, like the

267
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,600
the book of official doctrine,
or if this is just a feature of

268
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,240
Catholic culture.
But the way that I understood it

269
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,680
was basically every sin I was
committing was a mortal sin.

270
00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,760
And so you need to go to
confession because the only way

271
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,840
to be sure that you're not going
to go to hell for all of the

272
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,640
otherwise fairly innocuous
things that you do is to tell a

273
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,080
priest.
And to me, that makes you either

274
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,960
jaded or paralyzed, especially
when you're a kid.

275
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,920
And so that would be my comment
about guilt.

276
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,920
As to what was appealing about
New Atheism.

277
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,000
Well, I was a teenager and it
was contrarian.

278
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,600
That was one thing.
I've got a real problem with

279
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,160
authority.
And that's just something that

280
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,360
I've always, I used to think I
struggled with.

281
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,200
Now I actually think it's a
blessing.

282
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,520
But I've got a real problem with
authority.

283
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,560
Like if you're going to tell me
what to do, then I'm going to

284
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,360
give you the middle finger.
If, if I don't think that it's

285
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,080
in my best interest or in the
best interest of whatever that

286
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,840
thing I'm working on behalf of
is at the time, it was obviously

287
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:58,000
not God's cause.
And so my understanding of my

288
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,640
relationship with God was one of
petty authoritarianism because

289
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,960
of the Catholic Church, petty
disproportionate

290
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,760
authoritarianism.
And that doesn't jive well with

291
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,320
my personality.
And so it was contrarian.

292
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:17,560
And also it was a way for me to
reject what I thought was sort

293
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,360
of like the archetypical
authoritarian model.

294
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,240
The third thing is that, you
know, my personality type is if

295
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,400
you did like the Myers Briggs
personality test, which is

296
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,800
totally creepy, by the way.
If anybody's listening to this

297
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,280
and you haven't done the Myers
Briggs test, go do it.

298
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,200
And it's going to know you
better than you know you, which

299
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:39,280
is totally weird.
But my, my Myers Briggs

300
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,200
personality type.
So basically what happens for

301
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,080
anybody that doesn't know this
is there's, there's, there's

302
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,200
four letters that you are
assigned and each letter stands

303
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,520
for something.
So you know, the 1st letter is

304
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,640
like I or E and it stands for
introverted and extroverted.

305
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,000
And then the, the, the next
letter is N or S and it stands

306
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,120
for intuitive or I can't
remember, like analyzing or

307
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,520
something.
And then it's a, it's an F or T

308
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,680
which is feeling or thinking.
And then it's a, it's AJ or AP

309
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,640
which is perceiving or judging.
And so the, so the, if you, if

310
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,480
you read my Myers Briggs
personality score, it's like

311
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,440
ruthlessly logical, you know,
like just just just

312
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,880
uncompromisingly logical.
And I don't care if you don't

313
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,839
like it, if it's right, it's
right.

314
00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:30,240
If it makes sense, it makes
sense and tough, you can deal

315
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,160
with it if it offends you.
And and that's been the way that

316
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,800
I've been forever.
And so at a really cursory

317
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,600
level, and this was sort of my
own ignorance at the time, it

318
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,480
just seemed like the most
logical thing.

319
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,360
Because here I am, you know, at
the time, a teenager, at least

320
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:55,000
by this point, being told by all
of these people around me that

321
00:17:55,120 --> 00:18:00,200
we have to go to church and tell
this this guy who himself is

322
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,520
probably a Sinner to about all
the things we did wrong.

323
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,320
And then he's going to tell us
what God wants.

324
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,720
And somehow he's the only one
that knows what God wants.

325
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,080
And the whole thing just seemed
illogical and authoritarian.

326
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,120
And so when I found this thing
that was contrarian, it was anti

327
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,560
authoritarian and it seemed to
be deeply logical, I just went

328
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,480
that's it.
That's the right thing.

329
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,160
And so that's what got me to
attach to that way of thinking.

330
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,360
Do you think you ever had 100%
complete buy in on it or do you

331
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:33,000
think you it was more of a
fascination with the line of

332
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,280
thinking?
No, I mean, I think I was pretty

333
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,640
well bought in.
I mean at at one point, but see

334
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,080
that's a OK.
So that's a weird question

335
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,400
because when when you say do you
think you were bought in, the

336
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,920
question is like, what does it
mean to be bought in?

337
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:54,080
So I would have said to you in
the most passionate, heavy,

338
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,200
heated argument that I, I the
end is the end.

339
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,680
But at the same time, I never
became such a nihilist that I

340
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,120
was, you know, I don't know,
willing to kill you over the

341
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:10,040
necklace that you had.
And so I guess like, on the

342
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,640
surface, I was totally bought
in, but I never behaved like

343
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,640
there wasn't a God.
Like I still adhere to

344
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,080
principles of right and wrong in
my everyday behavior and so I

345
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:20,720
guess maybe subconsciously I
never was.

346
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,040
That's a good point.
I, I've always, I think this is

347
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,920
a lot along the same lines of
when someone tells me they're a

348
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,400
pacifist, I say, to what end are
you willing to watch your kids

349
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,200
get demolished?
Are you still a pacifist?

350
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,240
I mean, at at what end?
I I'm not sure.

351
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:44,800
I'm sure there are, but I don't
think there's a a lot of 100%

352
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,280
pure pacifist.
I just don't think it, it

353
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,200
exists.
And, and what with a lot of the

354
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,960
atheists I've spoken to,
sometimes I get the feeling like

355
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,960
they're, they're, they're trying
to buck authority, which I

356
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,160
totally understand.
I can relate to you 100% on on

357
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,840
bucking authority.
I feel that way too.

358
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,560
And I get that.
But at the same time, there's

359
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,400
certain things that I'll hear
from time to time that make me

360
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,400
go, are you really though?
I mean, are you really bought in

361
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,680
to this?
And so I was just curious.

362
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,520
So, so one of the things that
I've come to realize as I've

363
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,840
gotten older about people that
adopt an atheist, what do you

364
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,120
call that?
A cosmology?

365
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:30,160
Is that the word?
I'm not very eloquent.

366
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:34,480
I I think just a belief 'cause I
mean, I in, in cosmology,

367
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:40,200
there's some sort of theological
idea behind it, right?

368
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,160
OK, OK, so, so let's just say
you adopt an atheist worldview

369
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,800
or an atheistic moral framework.
I've noticed a couple things

370
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,160
about people that do that.
First of all, invariably,

371
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,320
inevitably they will find
something that becomes their

372
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,960
God.
And most commonly in the last

373
00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:03,640
five years, that God is the
state and generally that God is

374
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,800
the state.
And it is, it is, it is the

375
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,760
cultural causes of the state.
And so most of the people that

376
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:14,640
used to be the contrarian
atheists during, for example,

377
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,720
the COVID times were fully
bought in on all of the most

378
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,520
authoritarian things that all of
these COVID morons were trying

379
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,440
to push on the everyman.
And so that was that's one

380
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:27,640
thing.
But then the second thing that

381
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,480
I've also noticed about these
people that are ostensibly

382
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:37,400
atheists is generally speaking,
that they still have a fairly

383
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,200
normal sense of what is right
and and what is wrong.

384
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:47,760
And what's funny is a lot of
them will, a lot of them, I'm

385
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:48,880
sorry, I'm trying to find the
right words.

386
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:53,000
A lot of them will frame it as
though like they don't pass

387
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,760
judgement on people for their
decisions that are different,

388
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:58,920
right?
They'll say like, you know, if

389
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:04,480
you want to, I don't know, you
want to, you want to lead a

390
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,000
hedonistic lifestyle.
You know, it's, it's, it's not

391
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,000
up to me to decide if that's
right and wrong.

392
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,080
But generally they themselves
are not actually the ones doing

393
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:14,200
that.
Like if you've ever met a real

394
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,160
hedonist, they're generally just
like either total sociopaths or

395
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,040
they're wracked with guilt for
their behavior and they believe

396
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,160
in God and they just can't seem
to get themselves any better.

397
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,160
But the people that are that
espouse a what I would call a

398
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,800
thoughtful atheist worldview
generally live like they still

399
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,280
have a moral framework that came
from somewhere which they can't

400
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:39,280
explain because there is no God.
And so that's something that's

401
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,080
always confused me is they if
if, if you don't have God, you

402
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,800
replace God with something else.
And generally it's the state.

403
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,280
And in any case, those people
always live as though there is a

404
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,760
moral framework anyway, despite
their claim that there is no

405
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,760
God.
Yeah, no, I agree.

406
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,880
And I think whether man likes to
admit it or not, I do believe

407
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,400
that there's a God shaped part
of us, right?

408
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,120
That can only build by, by the
belief in something bigger,

409
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,880
right, 'cause 'cause I agree
with you wholeheartedly.

410
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,120
I think men are religious by
nature.

411
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:17,320
I think, I think probably from
from the very first time we

412
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,240
started looking up into the
heavens, we felt a desire to

413
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,480
commune with something bigger
than ourselves.

414
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,440
Now, if, if that gets taken away
through like religion or

415
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,720
spirituality or those things,
something has to fill the void,

416
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,560
right?
And we know that nature abhors a

417
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,080
vacuum.
And so you will either start

418
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,040
going more left towards a big
state, which was really kind of

419
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,880
right up Marx's alley, right,
'cause he 'cause he talked about

420
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,480
ski, all of them.
Yeah, a God state, so to speak,

421
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,560
right.
Or you end up trying to fill

422
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:58,360
that with booze or whatever your
vice is to, to, to fill that

423
00:23:58,360 --> 00:23:59,960
hole.
And it, it usually ends up

424
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,880
leading to some sort of self
destruction.

425
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,360
The guys that tend to fare the
best are the ones who like the

426
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,040
big state, right?
Because they, they have replaced

427
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,120
that.
But I, you know, you see them,

428
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:13,920
you see it get replaced a lot
with, with other leftist causes

429
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,800
as well, right?
I mean, they'll, they'll bounce

430
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,000
from leftist doctrine to leftist
doctrine.

431
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,360
And, and I'm of the opinion that
man's religious by nature.

432
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:23,640
He just doesn't want to admit
it.

433
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,360
You know, so one of the things
that I've really tried to like

434
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:29,880
learn how to do, and I think my
background gives me the ability

435
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:38,520
to do this, is to sort of prove
out common sense, to present an

436
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,800
argument to someone in a common
sense way that would speak to a

437
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,440
non believer.
And so to prove your point,

438
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,960
right, let's look all the way
back in the records of

439
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,280
prehistoric man, right?
What we know, and we could say a

440
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,320
lot of things about how
absolutely corrupt and

441
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,840
delusional and authoritarian the
field of archaeology is and the

442
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,600
institutions that govern the
field of archaeology.

443
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,000
But if we assume, if we take it
face value, that the discoveries

444
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,480
that they've made about
prehistoric man are in some way

445
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,320
generally accurate, we've got
records going back the 100,000

446
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:18,000
years of people basically
hunting, reproducing and

447
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,520
performing rituals like that is
as old as time.

448
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:28,440
And if that doesn't speak to a
God shaped piece, to use your

449
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,280
term of the human experience, I
don't know what would.

450
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,760
Right.
Yeah, no, it seems to be hard

451
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,840
wired in US, right?
I mean, there's no way around.

452
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,320
OK, so, so back to your story.
So you you pick up atheism, you

453
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,560
tell your mom.
I'm sure she was super excited

454
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,920
to hear about that.
So what?

455
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:54,160
What happens next?
So kind of nothing in terms of

456
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,720
religious development, but at
the time at least, but in

457
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,840
hindsight, everything in terms
of religious development.

458
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:06,480
So what I did then is at this
point, so I actually, so I

459
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,280
don't, I hardly ever share this,
but I mean, I guess it's, it's,

460
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:10,680
it's relevant.
So we'll, we'll go ahead.

461
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,200
And so I started high school.
Thousand of my closest friends.

462
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,320
You're good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

463
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,800
So I started high school when I
was 11 years old and I actually

464
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,600
went to five years of high
school just because when I was

465
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,680
supposed to graduate, I didn't
have my driver's license.

466
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,040
My mom was like, oh, I don't
want you, you know, like living

467
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,280
at a dorm because I know what
you're going to get into.

468
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,960
So I need you to drive to
school, to college.

469
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,640
But you're 15, so you can't
drive.

470
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,080
So you're going to go to an
extra year of high school, which

471
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,200
you can walk to, so that when
you're graduated, you'll be 16

472
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,160
and then you can drive to
college and you don't have to

473
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,120
live there.
And so, so at 16, I started

474
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:48,200
driving to college and I school
has always come really easy for

475
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,040
me, OK?
I just have never really cared

476
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,520
much about school and I've still
done reasonably well, like A's

477
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,720
and B's most of the time.
And so in college I went to, I

478
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,440
went to College in a town called
Aurora, OK, so I lived right

479
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,480
outside of Aurora, kind of on
the outskirts.

480
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,280
And I went to town, I went to
College in this town called

481
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,720
Aurora.
And Aurora nowadays has

482
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,960
gentrified and become very nice
and there's fancy restaurants.

483
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,120
I went back and I couldn't even
believe how nice it was.

484
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,120
But back in the day, that was
the hood.

485
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:26,480
And I had a very ghetto group of
friends that we spent a lot of

486
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,880
time doing a lot of a lot of
stuff I wouldn't repeat on a

487
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,800
podcast.
And so I was actually governed

488
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,840
by principles.
I thought, hey, if I enjoy it

489
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,800
and nothing like, you know,
immediately bad occurs to me as

490
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,160
a result, then it's acceptable
because that's not real.

491
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,760
So that's fine.
And so, you know, I, I had guys,

492
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,440
you know, I mean, we were the
life of the party.

493
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,120
We'd, we'd go to these ghetto
house parties and show up and

494
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,120
all the girls would be wanting
to hang out with us and all the

495
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:03,240
guys would be wanting to, you
know, either start fights or be

496
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,280
cool and, you know, get slaps in
and all that stuff.

497
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:06,400
And how's it going?
How you been?

498
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,240
It's good to see you, you know,
like all that type of thing.

499
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,400
We used to record music, you
know, like we'd go to the

500
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,600
recording studio, we'd be
drinking and smoking constantly.

501
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,000
It was just ghetto, man.
It was just real ghetto.

502
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,120
And that went on for like six
years or so.

503
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:23,960
And then when I was about 22, it
all happened at one time, but it

504
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,200
was like the chicken started
coming home to roost.

505
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,120
So I had one friend who I
wouldn't even really call him a

506
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:31,520
friend.
I would call him an

507
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,440
acquaintance.
He was kind of in the like he

508
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:34,720
was in the circles that I ran
in.

509
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:41,200
He went to federal prison for I
think it was like 8 months.

510
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,040
And if you go to federal prison
for eight months means you told

511
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,200
on someone to get out.
And when he got out, I don't

512
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,320
know all the details that
happened because nobody wanted

513
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,760
to associate with him, but he
wound up, I heard later, he

514
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,920
wound up dead in a very short
period of time.

515
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,760
It was like, you know, a few few
months after, after he had

516
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,960
gotten out, There was another
guy that I was close friends

517
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:10,160
with who caught a charge that he
was, it was, it was either 25 to

518
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,160
life or 20 to life that he was
facing.

519
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,760
And he was one of my very best
friends.

520
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,880
And there was another guy who
got involved in a violent

521
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,280
altercation at a house party who
allegedly got involved at a

522
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:23,920
violent altercation at a house
party.

523
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,280
I mean, I, I wasn't there, but
one of his friends who was also

524
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,640
part of our group started
wearing a a wire around

525
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,960
everybody And and we found out
about it later.

526
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,520
Yeah.
And then the last thing is I had

527
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,720
AI had a buddy who he ran like a
trap house in Aurora and he

528
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,840
didn't own it.
His his buddy owned the house.

529
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,000
And so his buddy was kind of
like the, you know, like the

530
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,640
local nice guy.
And it was sort of the front for

531
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,240
being able to do the business
there unaffected.

532
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Well, the local nice guy got
robbed by some guys that figured

533
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,720
out what was going on at the
house and they beat him up with

534
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,640
shovels and all come he was
really bad.

535
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,720
And all this stuff happened in
like a year.

536
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,520
And I'm, I'm starting to think
like, dude, like, have you ever

537
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,320
seen the movie Boyz in the Hood?
Dude it's been years but yes I

538
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,440
did it was.
OK, so in boys in the hood,

539
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,760
there's like this one guy that's
always rolling with all the

540
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,560
dudes that are causing all the
trouble, but he's always

541
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,160
pontificating on like Islam and
the plight of the black man.

542
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,760
He's like very enlightened, you
know, that guy.

543
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,160
But he's never actually doing
anything.

544
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,280
He's just kind of always there.
That was like me, all my buddies

545
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,160
used to be like, oh, that's
Adam, you know, and, and and so

546
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,400
I was never really like doing
all the dirt, but I was always

547
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,240
there.
I was always around this stuff.

548
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,640
I was always just is happening
right in front of me and I got

549
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,360
to thinking, man, I'm going to
be in the wrong place at the

550
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:42,840
wrong time.
Like when SWAT comes through

551
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,520
that door, they don't care that
I was standing there here and

552
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,560
all this stuff that is not legal
in this house is it's sitting

553
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,000
right in front of me 5 feet
away.

554
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,520
So what what difference is that
going to make?

555
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:02,360
So the the last straw was I kind
of told those those four stories

556
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,720
out of sequence.
But the last straw was when the

557
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,800
guy that I mentioned had the 25
live charge because that was

558
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,040
like one of my very closest
friends and I had just started

559
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,880
seeing this girl at the time.
And I said to her, I said, I got

560
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,680
to go, like we got to get out of
here.

561
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,840
We got to get out of Chicago, we
got to get out of Illinois or I

562
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,840
am going to wind up just like
these guys.

563
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,920
And I just had this moment where
like it hit me like you got it.

564
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,320
You got to go, man, get out.
And so I spent the better part

565
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,440
of a year, I got a union job and
at the time I was making like 16

566
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,960
bucks an hour.
And then, you know, 2010 or

567
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,760
whatever.
That was a ton of money for, you

568
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,120
know, just an entry level union
job.

569
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,440
And because I was the lowest guy
in the totem pole pole and none

570
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,880
of the, you know, none of the
guys with seniority ever wanted

571
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,280
to work OTI got all the OTI
wanted.

572
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,400
So for like a year straight, I'm
working 60-70 hours a week just

573
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,920
racking up the OT and just
putting all that money in the

574
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,720
bank that I could.
And by the end of the year, I

575
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,400
had like 20 grand in the bank.
And me and this girl, we're

576
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,360
still seeing each other.
And we just, we, I'm not even

577
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,840
kidding you.
We looked at a map and we said,

578
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,520
what seems better than Illinois?
And we're like, I don't know,

579
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,560
Colorado.
And she was like, yeah, sure.

580
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,400
And so we just, we got in a car
with what few belongings, we had

581
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,800
20 grand.
And we just drove to Colorado,

582
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,240
man.
And we found a hotel.

583
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,960
We got there.
We found an apartment when we

584
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,720
got there.
I found a job when we got there,

585
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,720
just started over.
It was like a fresh start.

586
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,600
And so that was good because it
had gotten me out of all the

587
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,680
potential legal trouble that I
could have been in in Illinois.

588
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:38,480
But I continued in my generally
hedonistic ways, you know, like

589
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,800
I, I not hedonistic, I guess I
would say like nihilistic and

590
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,320
self-serving ways.
And slowly but surely life kind

591
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,920
of began to fall apart.
I, I just, I never had any

592
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,520
money.
My cars started to become

593
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,640
unreliable.
My job was at risk multiple

594
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,400
times for different reasons.
Sometimes my own doing,

595
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,120
sometimes totally not my own
doing.

596
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,440
It was just different things.
I, I was, I was, I was broke

597
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,360
constantly.
I was very angry.

598
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,880
I never had any inner peace.
I had this very troubled

599
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,400
relationship with this girl.
I was never very happy.

600
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,600
It just, it just it just sort of
like slowly I, I, I, I I caught

601
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,560
myself drinking a lot.
Like, I didn't even realize I'd

602
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,040
been doing it.
And I'm like, man, I am.

603
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,640
I am drinking a lot, you know.
And so slowly but surely it

604
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,240
starts to get worse and worse
and worse.

605
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,680
And then finally, this is going
to sound really petty, but we

606
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,720
got like a three foot snowstorm
and I was like, oh, I'm out of

607
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:36,880
here.
I don't want to do this anymore.

608
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,360
So we up and moved again.
And this time we went to

609
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,480
Arizona.
And when we went to Arizona,

610
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,520
that was kind of the last straw.
This girl that I had been

611
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,600
seeing, she, she, she had, she
went even further off the deep

612
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,720
end then I did.
She was drinking way more, doing

613
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,080
way crazier stuff.
And I just said, this is over,

614
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,600
I'm done, this isn't working.
And I got out of this

615
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:04,800
relationship and that was kind
of like the lowest point.

616
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,159
So if, if you could graph like
the joy in my life from

617
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:11,760
childhood to this point I just
described, this is the bottom of

618
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,199
the parabola.
This is where it this is where

619
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:20,880
it hits the lowest point.
Then, right at that time, I met

620
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,239
my wife and that's what began
the conversion experience.

621
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,880
OK.
So I'm big on those.

622
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,040
Those I tend to call them
inflection points, right?

623
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,159
It's a point at which you change
course.

624
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:43,320
Now would you say yours was a
moment or was yours like gradual

625
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,760
that you, you, you you
recognized?

626
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,800
It, it was both.
It was both and that sounds like

627
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,159
a wishy washy answer, but it's
not and I'll describe it

628
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:55,280
exactly.
So what happened was, is it was

629
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,360
gradual.
I was gradually trending towards

630
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,040
that inflection point in terms
of my downwardly proportionate

631
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,400
level of joy.
Then a moment happened and

632
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,400
that's when it hit me what had
been occurring this whole time.

633
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:16,600
So, so in hindsight, I had been
getting there gradually, but I

634
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,680
realized it in a moment like it
was it was there was this moment

635
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:26,160
where So what had happened was,
is this girl, and God bless her,

636
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,040
I don't know what she's doing in
her life now.

637
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,080
I hope she's recovered from all
of this.

638
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,320
I wish nothing but the best for
her, but this is just sort of

639
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:34,480
the best way to explain the
story.

640
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,160
So she used to have what I
thought were these like mental

641
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,800
episodes, OK.
She had mental illness in her

642
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,520
family.
Her mom had suffered from

643
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,120
bipolar disorder, depression.
Her grandmother had suffered

644
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,080
from schizophrenia.
There was lots of long history

645
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,000
of mental illness.
And she used to have what I

646
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,360
would call these mental
episodes.

647
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,720
And basically it would be like
you left for the store and then

648
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:57,800
you came home and suddenly there
was a different person that was

649
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,440
there.
And this person was like

650
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,320
unmotivated and sad and and had
a different sense of humor and

651
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,680
spoke differently and even had a
different tone of voice.

652
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,680
Like that was always the
strangest thing, as I could tell

653
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,600
from the tone of voice, you
know, sort of which version I

654
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,800
was going to get.
And I had thought these were

655
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,720
like these.
I thought these were episodes.

656
00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,960
And what was so weird is the
behavior was very like almost

657
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,720
under the influence, but not you
could you, you would, you would

658
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:28,040
look at this girl during this
period of time and be like,

659
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,160
there's something wrong with
you.

660
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,840
Well, she calls me one day and
she says, Hey, I'm I'm in jail

661
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,840
and I'm like, what happened?
She says, well, I got pulled

662
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:44,440
over and I was having one of
those episodes and the officer

663
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,880
thought that I was drinking, but
I wasn't.

664
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,960
And I was like, wow, did you
take a breathalyzer?

665
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,720
She said, no, I I didn't take a
breathalyzer because I didn't do

666
00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:58,360
anything wrong.
And so I'm not giving in to

667
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,480
those people on principle.
And in hindsight, I think that

668
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,880
was manipulative because I think
that she knew that would appeal

669
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,160
to like my anti authoritarian
tendencies And I was like, good

670
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,600
for you.
And turns out that it ended up

671
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,960
being this really crazy
interaction.

672
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,440
The police report was wild.
She was, you know, swearing at

673
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,400
him and kicking and doing all
kinds of crazy stuff.

674
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,120
And they held her down and took
her blood and gave her a blood

675
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:23,640
test.
And so, so the whole time she's

676
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,720
telling me like, you know, it
was it was just I just had this

677
00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:26,720
episode.
I just had this episode.

678
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,520
Well, one day the blood results
came back and she was like four

679
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,320
or five times the legal limit.
It was like an insane amount of

680
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,760
alcohol.
Like, I would have thought she

681
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,440
would be dead.
And it was also at like 1:00 in

682
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,400
the afternoon on a Friday or a
Saturday.

683
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,680
So.
So that made me go wait a

684
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,680
minute.
What I thought was a slow

685
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,240
descent into mental illness
that, you know, sort of together

686
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:58,040
we were lamenting, was actually
just secret drinking.

687
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,120
And you were letting me think it
was a mental illness the whole

688
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,840
time.
And so that was my moment.

689
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,480
That was when I was like, this
ain't it?

690
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,440
And so then I was gone.
I mean, it took me a day I think

691
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,040
to be like, Nope, I'm out of
here.

692
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,520
Yeah, no, I can kind of remember
where mine was right when that

693
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,720
moment where I knew things had
to change.

694
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:23,680
I couldn't keep going like I was
and I could tell you the color

695
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,520
of the walls, right?
What what color the walls were,

696
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,120
right?
I mean, it was it was that big

697
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,240
of an inflection point.
So I was just curious to get

698
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:32,840
yours.
So it sounds like it was

699
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,880
definitely, definitely that.
So you pack up, you move to

700
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,400
Arizona by yourself, right?
You're just like, game over.

701
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,840
Don't want snow anymore.
You were like, I'm I'm going

702
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,320
somewhere warm.
I'm out of here.

703
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,880
So you, you, you head to
Arizona.

704
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:57,760
How do you meet your wife?
So we were working together and

705
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,120
we were just friendly at work.
So this is this is one thing

706
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,240
that actually gets me in trouble
in the fundamentalist world a

707
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:07,200
little bit is like I, I kind of
know, like I know no stranger.

708
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:13,360
And you could be a 20 year old
woman or a 90 year old man and I

709
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,400
don't really care.
Like if you've got something

710
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,880
interesting or you're friendly
or you present some others, like

711
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,560
some other unique characteristic
that I'm not going to get an

712
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,960
interaction from someone else,
then we're going to talk.

713
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,840
And you can tell I'm chatty.
I've already filled up an hour

714
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,240
of time or something just
talking.

715
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,080
And so I'm always real friendly
with everybody.

716
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,160
And unfortunately, in the
fundamentalist world, young

717
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,680
women tend to interpret that as
being flirtatious or interested.

718
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,680
And then it almost never is.
Actually, I don't think it ever

719
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:40,680
has been, at least to this
point.

720
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,480
But that's the way that I am.
And so this was just this girl

721
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,400
that I knew at work and I was
very friendly with her.

722
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,120
And of course, I thought that
she was, you know, physically

723
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:53,440
attractive, but I had thought
that she had a boyfriend and she

724
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,680
thought that I had a girlfriend.
And so, and neither of us were

725
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,760
religious or anything like that.
There's no courtship process.

726
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,120
And so I just never broached the
subject.

727
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,200
Well, one day I was just kind of
in a funk.

728
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,240
I was in sort of a, yeah, I
don't know, just like a down

729
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:08,000
mood.
And she says to me, she comes to

730
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,560
say, can I sit by at lunch?
And I'm like, that's fine.

731
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,160
So she sits down at the table
and we're chatting.

732
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,200
And she says, so what's going
on?

733
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,400
Like, you seem like you kind of
in a funk.

734
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,640
Like, yeah, you know, like,
broke up with my girlfriend.

735
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:17,920
Here's the story.
Here's what happened.

736
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,640
And she?
Tells me the story that like the

737
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,280
inverse, she basically did the
exact same thing with the guy

738
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,520
she'd been seeing.
And it was for similar

739
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,600
circumstances.
I mean, the whole, it was crazy

740
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,320
how much the two stories
aligned.

741
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:36,560
And the more we talked, the more
that we found out it was even on

742
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,560
the exact same day.
And it was like, whoa, this is

743
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,600
weird.
And so I was, I said to her, I

744
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,480
said, do you want to go get
coffee after work?

745
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:52,400
And she was like, yeah, sure.
And that was kind of like the

746
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,520
beginning of, you know, what in
the Mormon world you would call

747
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,440
the courtship process.
But when we started seeing each

748
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,640
other and that was sort of that,
like that was the first sign

749
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,280
that to me that that resonated
in a way that landed with me,

750
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,880
that there's a plan and I'm a
participant in it.

751
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:17,080
So just by meeting your wife, it
starts to put maybe some some

752
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,280
cracks in the idea of atheism.
Yeah, correct.

753
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,520
That's, you know, that's funny
'cause I can kind of resonate

754
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,680
with that.
I wasn't an atheist.

755
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,640
I did believe there was a God,
although I I believed he was

756
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,920
more of a deist kind of God,
right?

757
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,200
Just a clock maker.
He just winds things up and then

758
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,640
is disinterested after that.
Yep, Yep.

759
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:43,760
And I remember when I met my
wife, Amber, that everything

760
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:48,240
changed because she had a
certain light to her that I

761
00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:51,240
didn't have.
And I was like, whatever she's

762
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:55,760
got, I want some of that now.
I didn't realize it was the

763
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:01,160
whole Mormon thing, but I was
like, well, I think I can hang.

764
00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:03,680
Once I found out she was Mormon,
I was like, I think I can hang

765
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:05,120
around her and that's enough,
right?

766
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,280
Like I want to be a Mormon.
Those guys are weird, right?

767
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,800
So I, I can, I can identify with
that.

768
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,360
So what happens next?
So so.

769
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,520
We start seeing each other and
it would be kind of difficult

770
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,600
now because there were so many
of them and so and so many of

771
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,480
them were so subtle, but there
was just a series of undeniable,

772
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,120
almost unbelievable coincidences
that would occur one right after

773
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,040
the other, after the other,
after the other.

774
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:34,360
And this point, we're not like
seeing each other.

775
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,520
We just kind of have begun to
talk, but just just the number

776
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,520
of coincidences.
And she had two children from

777
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,600
that relationship that she'd
been in before.

778
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,760
And so they were kind of Co
parenting for a few months.

779
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,360
And then that guy up and leaves.
He just, he just says, hey, that

780
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,440
we were living in Arizona.
He tells her one day says, Hey,

781
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,600
I'm moving to Utah in three
days.

782
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,040
And it's like, you know, 9 hours
north and they're Co parenting.

783
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,840
And she's like, So what am, you
know, what am I going to do?

784
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,120
And I don't know, put him in
daycare.

785
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:08,880
And so sort of spontaneously in
the middle of what feels like

786
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,080
this very organic development of
relationship, these two kids

787
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,760
lose their dad and they're both
very young.

788
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,240
I mean, one of them.
So I adopted both of them.

789
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,920
The younger of the two, she's
nine.

790
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,640
She has just no idea about this
back story at all.

791
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,400
I'll tell her one day when she
understands like how babies are

792
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,280
made and what a marriage is and
all that kind of stuff.

793
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:31,960
But at the at the moment, I
just, I don't think that.

794
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,560
Sure.
It's it, it, it, it would, it

795
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:36,840
would generate more questions
than answers.

796
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,800
And so she doesn't even know
that means it's that long ago.

797
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:46,800
But so, so he takes off and I'm
like, well, I mean, these kids

798
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,600
need a dad and I'm with or I'm
interested in their mother.

799
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:53,840
And so I guess this is a package
deal.

800
00:43:54,680 --> 00:44:02,880
And so at this point, it was
kind of like a moment where now

801
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,200
you either got to find a way to
give these kids what they need

802
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:14,120
and basically provide for this
woman, or you need to leave.

803
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,280
Like you've got two options.
This is your fork in the road.

804
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:24,360
And it just seemed like the
right thing to do to jump in on

805
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,400
the dad train.
So what I started doing is I

806
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,960
started looking for jobs that
would pay enough money that she

807
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,320
could quit work because at the
time we're, we're both working,

808
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,560
we're working together and we
started really seeing each

809
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,240
other.
It became very serious very

810
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:42,400
quickly.
And then right before we, so

811
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,800
right before I did find a job, I
walked up to her.

812
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,360
This was, this was my, my, this
is how romantic I am.

813
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,600
All the ladies out there are
gonna be like, oh, this guy man,

814
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,560
this is good.
We were working and she was

815
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:55,920
working.
She was, it was in a warehouse.

816
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,840
And so she's working at a box
packing station.

817
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,080
And I, and I, I after, like I
said, after this series of just

818
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,960
undeniable coincidences, quote
UN quote, one after another

819
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,520
after another, I, I start
realizing like it's almost like

820
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,880
the universe is screaming at me,
like you have to be with this

821
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,920
woman.
Because if you don't like you

822
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,600
are swimming against the current
and it is a strong current and

823
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,720
you can't swim very good in this
grand space that we're all

824
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:25,480
trying to navigate.
And so you better figure it out

825
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,120
real quick.
And so I one day I got the

826
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:29,240
inspiration.
I was like, you know what?

827
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:30,920
I should marry her.
And so I walked downstairs

828
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,880
because I was on a mezzanine
where my desk was.

829
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,240
And I walked down to her pack
station.

830
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:35,840
And I said her name's Shannon.
I said, hey, Shannon.

831
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,360
She says, hey, what's up?
And I said, I think we should

832
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,960
get married.
She kind of looks at me and she

833
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,560
thinks for a second.
And she goes OK, And then that's

834
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:45,800
that.
We.

835
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,480
We ended up getting married very
shortly after that.

836
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,840
So right after that was when I
found a job that paid enough

837
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,760
that she could quit work and we
all moved to Kentucky from so

838
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,480
we're living in Arizona.
We all moved to Kentucky for

839
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:05,160
that job and it's come with, we
get married and now we are a

840
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:06,920
family.
And this is where the the sort

841
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,960
of like the real, this is where
the real conversion experience

842
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,760
began to occur.
This is where like the meat and

843
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,560
potatoes happen, OK?
Let then let me stop you there,

844
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,360
because there's a couple things
I want to I want to talk about

845
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,720
here.
First, good on you.

846
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:26,760
So my old man passed when I was
like 13 and I think he knew

847
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,520
about a year beforehand he was
about to pass because he started

848
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,400
taking me with him even when I
was supposed to be in school on

849
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,000
long trips, right for for work.
He was a diesel mechanic.

850
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:43,960
He had shops in in, in western
Idaho, in a shop in Central

851
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,760
Oregon.
And so we would bounce between

852
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,200
the two.
And I remember once he told me

853
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,280
something.
And again, I'm only 13 and this

854
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,520
is, this was not uncommon for
that last year or when I was in

855
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,480
the truck with him a lot.
But he would tell me about

856
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,440
certain scenarios.
You know, this is how you become

857
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:02,800
a man.
This is what you do.

858
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,440
And one of the things he said to
me was is if if you are ever

859
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,560
with a woman who already has
kids, the best way you can show

860
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,760
you love that woman is by loving
her kids.

861
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,000
So good on you.
But what I want to get to is

862
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,960
what causes you to do that,
right?

863
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,600
To take all that responsibility.
Because if you're looking at it

864
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,840
from a happy nihilist point of
view, that's kind of the last

865
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,480
thing you want, right?
Because you're like I, that's a

866
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,000
lot of responsibility.
Just take on where, where does

867
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,400
that come from?
Is it just because you love the

868
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,600
mom or is there something else
at play here, Adam?

869
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,840
So, so that, so that's, that
goes all the way back to that

870
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,840
question of, of buy in, right?
Because like I always had this

871
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,760
moral compass that I just wasn't
really able to ignore.

872
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:53,760
And as a Mormon, I would call
that the Holy Spirit or the

873
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,920
light of Christ.
But at the time I didn't have a

874
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:57,920
name for it.
And I just went, look, you know,

875
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:03,080
like if I, if I, if I pay
attention to all of these

876
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,080
obvious signs that I am being
given by at the time I would

877
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:11,760
have called it the universe,
then that tells me that there's

878
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,800
something I am supposed to do.
There is a plan here.

879
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,880
I am a participant in the plan.
And there is a right course of

880
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,520
action and a wrong course of
action.

881
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,840
And it was apparent by like the
circumstances that kept

882
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,400
occurring in my life.
And it felt like the right thing

883
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:27,280
to do.
And you could call that

884
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,600
inspiration.
You could you call that the Holy

885
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:30,440
Spirit.
You call that the light of

886
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:31,480
Christ.
You call it whatever you want.

887
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,680
But what it was is it was the
right thing to do.

888
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,000
And I knew it was the right
thing to do.

889
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,720
And you know, you say good on
you, but I mean, to me, it it

890
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:42,640
wasn't even really like it was
never like, oh, I should make

891
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,440
this decision to do this because
that would be a good thing.

892
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:47,760
It wasn't it wasn't even like
that.

893
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:48,960
You know, it was almost kind of
like this.

894
00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:54,720
Imagine, imagine a high pressure
intense scenario, like there's

895
00:48:54,720 --> 00:48:58,920
a, you know, bus coming to use a
cliche and your kid is standing

896
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,800
in the way.
And because of the way your

897
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,080
position and I don't know how
you're stepping or bleeding or

898
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,480
your shoes or whatever, you can
push the kid out of the way, but

899
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,160
you're going to get smacked,
right?

900
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,320
Like you don't like, you don't
sit there and go, should I do

901
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:12,440
this?
Is this the right thing?

902
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:17,840
Like it, it's so instinctive,
it's so obvious, It's so central

903
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,160
to who you are that it's not
even really thought you just do

904
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,200
it.
And so I never, I don't think I

905
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,320
ever thought like, Oh, is this a
good idea?

906
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,120
It was just like, this is the
right thing.

907
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,240
This is, this is what you do and
so do it.

908
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:38,480
And it's so it didn't even, it
was never like I, I felt like I

909
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,760
had a choice that I could make
differently.

910
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,680
So I don't even, you know, I
claim absolutely no credit for

911
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,560
that decision whatsoever.
It was just the right thing.

912
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,440
And if I didn't do it, I would
have been doing the wrong thing.

913
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,960
And nobody wants to do the wrong
thing, even if they had a

914
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,040
corrupt version of what the
wrong thing is, nobody wants to

915
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,080
do what they actually think is
the wrong thing.

916
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,560
And so it felt like I had no
choice.

917
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:57,720
You just, this is what you got
to do.

918
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:02,120
So get it done, you know.
Wow, and you know this is

919
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,920
interesting too 'cause I can I
can draw some parallels here.

920
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,720
One of the things I find
interesting is that when Abraham

921
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:16,040
sends out the servant, I believe
it's Abraham to find a wife for

922
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,000
Isaac.
You get the feeling from reading

923
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,080
scripture that Isaac is just
kind of floating, right?

924
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:26,400
Like he's not a bad guy, he just
isn't self actualized yet,

925
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:28,960
right?
And it's not until his wife

926
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:34,560
comes that he's like, oh crap, I
gotta, I gotta like be a man

927
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,480
now, right?
I gotta, I gotta do stuff.

928
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,800
And it's funny how that works
for us dudes, right.

929
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,480
I've always said and and I kind
of agree with Brigham on this a

930
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,800
little bit.
You know, a, a, a bachelor over

931
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:53,200
in his day, it was 18.
He'd say a bachelor over this

932
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,360
age as a, as a menace to
society.

933
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,520
I think there's some truth to
that, right?

934
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,160
Because as a dude, once you get
married and you have

935
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:05,160
responsibilities, not only is it
just providing for your family,

936
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,800
but all there's a, there's a
switch that flips where you're

937
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,320
like, OK, now we gotta build
stuff.

938
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,480
Right Now we gotta, we gotta
build stuff.

939
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,200
It's not enough just to get by.
We gotta build something, right?

940
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:19,920
And so there is something about
that, that that seems essential

941
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,960
to our nature as dudes, right?
Get married, have kids, build

942
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:26,440
stuff.
That's what we do.

943
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:28,720
And so I, I found that
interesting.

944
00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:31,760
I found that, that tie.
So, so you say once you move to

945
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,840
Kentucky, you find a job that's
gonna take care of you, your

946
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,920
wife, she can stay home, raise
the kids, you can go to work.

947
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,280
What, what, what, what was it in
your makeup that, that also you

948
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,200
were like, 'cause let's face it,
the trend today is like 2 income

949
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,840
households, right?
What was it inside of you that

950
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,800
said, Nah, she should probably,
if, if she, you know, if this is

951
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,800
a choice that she wants, she
should probably stay home with

952
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,000
the kids.
What was it about that that

953
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,000
well?
So.

954
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,240
'Cause it's fascinating, right?
They're they're kind of

955
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:09,680
conservative principles, but
you're not necessarily a

956
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,680
conservative guy, right?
No, Yeah, yeah.

957
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,560
So what I would say it was is
it's just kind of logical.

958
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:15,560
Just think about it for a
second.

959
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:20,960
So the younger one was, so the
older one was in public school.

960
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,080
We ended up pulling her out that
year and homeschooling her.

961
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,560
But, but, but we were still
learning our way through this,

962
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:26,800
right.
So this was just the beginning.

963
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,480
But but, but at the time, the
younger one was not in school.

964
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,240
And I just kind of thought about
it for a second, like we could

965
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:37,600
send her to daycare and we can
pay someone that I don't know

966
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,480
whose values I don't understand,
whose priorities and discipline

967
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,440
model I don't I'm not familiar
with.

968
00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:47,080
And I probably don't like to
raise my kid on my behalf.

969
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,400
So that my wife could make what
about as much as we spend on

970
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:55,440
daycare or she could raise them
herself according to the things

971
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,080
that we think are right.
And I don't have to pay anybody

972
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,600
to do that.
And at the same time, she gets

973
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,600
the flexibility and freedom to,
you know, in, in the way that

974
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,480
you mentioned that the switch
flips for a guy, I think the

975
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,840
switch flips for a woman when
they've got the, the, to use a

976
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,080
liberal term, the space to like
be feminine, you know what I'm

977
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:16,440
saying?
Like they, they've got the,

978
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,520
they've got the latitude to go
be a woman.

979
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,800
And so I think this, I, I think
that probably because the switch

980
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,160
flipped for me intuitively, I
just knew the switch would flip

981
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:26,800
for her.
And so this is the right thing.

982
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,160
Here you go.
And I don't want some, some some

983
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,480
person with some weird, you
know, I don't know, some like

984
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:38,880
strange Lou Hair, public school
liberal raising my kid for 12

985
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:40,320
bucks an hour.
Like I don't want that.

986
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,400
I want you know, I want one of,
you know, my family members to

987
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,000
raise the kid.
OK, now before we go any further

988
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,440
for everyone that's just
listening, 'cause I agree with

989
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,160
you by the way, but I just need
to tell everyone kind of what

990
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,160
you look like, if that's OK.
Yeah, Yeah.

991
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:56,800
Go for it.
Yeah.

992
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,240
Yeah, cause 'cause like, Adam
doesn't look like a guy who say,

993
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,640
who should say things like I
don't want a liberal blue hair

994
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,520
raising my kid, right?
But he's correct, right.

995
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,880
But Adam's a guy who's got a
little bit of a Mohawk going on,

996
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,920
got some gauges.
I mean, does not look like a guy

997
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,280
you'd expect that from.
But I, I think you're right too.

998
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,040
I, I think right there, I think
that's, that's another thing,

999
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,480
right?
I dude, so much of society, I

1000
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:28,400
just feel like we're forcing a
round peg into a square hole,

1001
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:30,920
right?
And we can't figure out why

1002
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,520
nothing's working and we're
like, why is everything upside

1003
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,040
down?
Well, dudes, we I hate to break

1004
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:41,320
it to you, but we have.
And again, even like, I think

1005
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,080
you can make this argument even
if you were an atheist, right?

1006
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,800
You could approach it from an
evolutionary term, right?

1007
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:52,000
But but from a spiritual side,
it it just, we've been denying

1008
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,720
who we are for so long now that
that we're almost in a state of

1009
00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:59,120
spiritual amnesia now.
And.

1010
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,200
You know what's you know, what's
funny is I actually think that

1011
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,240
that whole like concept of the
evolutionary argument is totally

1012
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:06,960
a valid line of reasoning about
the things that we should be

1013
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:08,600
doing.
And I think that is actually

1014
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,560
atheistic spirituality.
I think the evolutionary

1015
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,080
argument is spirituality for
atheists.

1016
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,160
It's like, what is my what is my
basic intuition about the things

1017
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,240
that I should be doing and how
can I reason through them?

1018
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,600
And if I use evolution as my
argument, like, oh, you know,

1019
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,200
we've been performing rituals
for a bazillion years.

1020
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:33,880
Like I can infer things about
the nature of my existence that

1021
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,280
doesn't necessarily require me
to believe in God.

1022
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,200
If I, if I want a full
understanding, if I want the

1023
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,600
true satisfaction of, of having,
I shouldn't say the full

1024
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:44,440
understanding because of course
we're all still working to get

1025
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:45,880
there.
But if I want a real deep

1026
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,520
understanding and have strong
grounding of principles, I think

1027
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:50,320
you have to be religious.
In fact, I think you have to

1028
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,000
specifically be a Mormon.
But we can get there.

1029
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:57,720
But I think that you, if you
just wanted to be a decent

1030
00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:01,360
person and infer answers to
questions about what you should

1031
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,160
be doing, I think you can sort
of examine the nature of the

1032
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,440
human condition in a very
atheistic kind of a way and

1033
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:13,280
probably still get fairly close.
I think that actually the the

1034
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:17,280
inherent ways that we behave are
inherent for a reason.

1035
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,640
And one of those is you don't
let someone you don't know raise

1036
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,440
your kids.
Right, right.

1037
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,960
Absolutely, absolutely.
Good stuff, man.

1038
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,840
OK, so it's gotta throw people
for a loop, which I did 'cause

1039
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,640
here's the thing, I wasn't race
spotless when when Amber met me,

1040
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,600
I had hair down in the middle of
my back.

1041
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:40,080
Both my ears were pierced.
I, you know, had a couple

1042
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:41,280
tattoos, right?
I.

1043
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,760
Had a guitar and dragon force.
Almost, almost it.

1044
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:51,120
I was more of a Guns and Roses
guy, maybe Man of War, but yeah,

1045
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:57,600
so this I'm, I'm a little bit
older than than you, like old

1046
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,920
enough that all I can't wait for
my AARP card so I can get all

1047
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:02,960
those killer discounts.
But sweet.

1048
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:07,160
Anyway, Yeah.
Anyway, OK, so back to the

1049
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,080
story.
So so you get married.

1050
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,720
It's like instant family.
Just add Adam, right?

1051
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:15,000
Shake and stir.
You're off and running.

1052
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,480
So you get to Kentucky.
What happens next?

1053
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,800
OK, so first of all, Instant
Family is actually a movie that

1054
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,320
my oldest daughter loves, by the
way, and it's about basically

1055
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:25,640
the same concept.
Yeah.

1056
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,200
And that's why she loves it.
So if you ever get the chance,

1057
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,760
you should watch the movie.
But so anyway, so.

1058
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,200
So what happens when we get
there is now I've got like, I've

1059
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:39,600
landed in Kentucky with this
sense that like, there's a plan

1060
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,880
and there's a right way for me
to proceed to the universe, and

1061
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,080
there's a wrong way for me to
proceed to the universe.

1062
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:50,000
And that begs the question, if
there's a plan, who's the

1063
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,880
planner?
And can I decipher the rest of

1064
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:54,560
the plan correctly?
Like how do I like, how do I

1065
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,440
decipher the plan?
Like what's the skill there?

1066
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,840
So you're not you're not quite a
God guy yet.

1067
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,240
Right.
No, not yet, not yet.

1068
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,120
So like, let's say for example,
I work in the corporate world,

1069
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:05,960
OK, And let's say you're working
on a project.

1070
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,040
You're going to have a project
plan.

1071
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:11,040
And that project plan is going
to have timelines and milestones

1072
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,320
and Gantt charts and resources
and all this stuff.

1073
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,920
And if you've never seen a
corporate project plan ever,

1074
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:20,360
like if your whole life has been
spent Bremen houses and you look

1075
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,720
at a corporate project plan,
it's probably going to be fairly

1076
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,960
meaningless.
Like there's a skill to being

1077
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,120
able to decipher a highly
detailed plan.

1078
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:29,560
And so I kind of thought about
it that way.

1079
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,120
Like what, what's the plan
right?

1080
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,160
Like, like what am I supposed to
be doing?

1081
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,000
And how do I know what I'm
supposed to be doing?

1082
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,200
How do I go figure that out?
But I didn't have any answers

1083
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:46,200
for it yet.
Then I had this inspiration that

1084
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:52,720
my wife and I should land on or
agree on some values, like what

1085
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,680
are our family values, right?
Because how can we hold each

1086
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:56,480
other?
This was my thought.

1087
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,040
How can we hold each other to
account?

1088
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,760
How do we know how we're raising
our children if we can't

1089
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,640
specifically articulate those
values that are important to us?

1090
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,760
And at the time, I was thinking
about it in terms of behavioral

1091
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,320
characteristics.
And I still think these are the

1092
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,240
proper behavioral
characteristics, but my wife and

1093
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:17,240
I spent probably years going
like probably months working on

1094
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,880
the initial list and then years
making small tweaks here and

1095
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:21,800
there.
And what we landed on was that

1096
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:23,480
we, and, and this is actually
on, on our wall.

1097
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,400
It's on like a letter board, you
know, those like letter boards

1098
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,520
you like stick a letter on and
then you get this black and it's

1099
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,760
got the white letters and they
got little pegs in the back and

1100
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,720
they stay in the board.
So it, it this, this, this,

1101
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:38,200
this, this letter board says a
good person is dot, dot, dot.

1102
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:41,560
And then it's got a list,
honest, respectful, kind,

1103
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:44,000
confident, hard working,
independent, inquisitive,

1104
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,320
modest, trustworthy, grateful,
adventurous, and positive.

1105
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,760
And to me, those are the things
that constitute a good person in

1106
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,040
terms of behavioral traits.
OK, sure.

1107
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:54,880
I don't think you can be a good
person.

1108
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,520
I don't think you can be a
really good person if you're

1109
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,960
missing one of those.
And we spent a long time trying

1110
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,480
to land on what that was.
And so now this sits on our

1111
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:06,320
wall.
And every time the kids do

1112
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,760
something wrong, I shouldn't say
every time, but every time they

1113
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,320
exhibit a behavioral trait that
is in conflict with one of

1114
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,200
these, we will walk them over to
the board and we will say, look,

1115
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,120
which one of those did you screw
up?

1116
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,640
And then we will make them
explain how they could have done

1117
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:23,640
it better.
And so so we land on this list

1118
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,920
of values and I start to realize
that.

1119
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:33,640
The more that we follow these
values, the better our lives get

1120
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:38,320
like in every way.
And it's not just the values,

1121
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:43,560
it's it's also we became engaged
or I became remember the, the

1122
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:48,120
switch that flips.
I became in engaged in like more

1123
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,200
wholesome and productive
passions.

1124
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,920
You know, I started like
literally building things to use

1125
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:55,240
your expression, building
things.

1126
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:00,120
I got into plants, I got into
books and reading.

1127
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:04,040
I got into, you know, like just
spending time with my kids.

1128
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,000
I'd always been into fitness,
but that just got way more

1129
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,400
hardcore.
And so now I've got all of these

1130
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,400
really productive passions and
almost all of my time is spoken

1131
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,640
for in some kind of value added
way.

1132
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,360
And as this is how I'm living
and I've got this, this, this

1133
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:25,040
backbone of values, more and
more blessings start coming into

1134
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,880
our family.
So the satisfaction of the job

1135
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,040
that I was doing, the money that
I was making, like my sense of

1136
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,080
right and wrong, it became so
much clearer.

1137
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,440
Our family grew, We started
having more children.

1138
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,600
The stability of our family
increased the closeness of our

1139
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:42,760
family, the way that other
people related to our family,

1140
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,400
you know, the, the, our sense of
fulfillment, like our sense of

1141
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:53,600
we were fulfilling this, this
purpose that like we had from

1142
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,600
before we knew we had it, you
know, my wife with the children

1143
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:01,320
and myself with going out and,
and like making stuff happen.

1144
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,560
And the more that we lived
according to these values and

1145
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:08,880
the more that I was engaged in
those productive, productive

1146
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:12,800
passions, and the more that I
tried to lead a righteous life,

1147
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:14,840
the more blessings that we
received.

1148
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:19,000
And things just kept getting
better and better and better the

1149
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:20,640
more that I tried to do those
things.

1150
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:26,080
And so then I went, OK, at this
point, I can't deny this

1151
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,240
anymore.
Like there's clearly, you know,

1152
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,760
this is my aunt calls it juju.
This is this is some good juju

1153
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:34,400
coming back to me for doing good
stuff.

1154
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:37,320
So now I need to understand what
that is, right?

1155
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,400
And that's where I started
getting into the scriptures.

1156
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,400
So up until this point, it was
kind of like, I've got this

1157
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,160
sense.
And over time, the sense just

1158
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,640
became obvious.
It wasn't even a sense anymore.

1159
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:53,080
It was like, you're a blind
idiot if you don't see this.

1160
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:55,960
And I didn't want to be a blind
idiot.

1161
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,000
And so now it became, all right.
Well, there's been a lot of

1162
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,400
people throughout many thousands
of years of human history that

1163
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:04,520
have made their best attempt to
explain this to us.

1164
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:05,720
And So what did they have to
say?

1165
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:07,480
And so that's when I started
reading.

1166
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:10,040
Scripture Did your wife start
down that road with you or at?

1167
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:17,720
The beginning.
So in spirit, yes, she's not

1168
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,360
like much of A reader.
So generally like she gets her

1169
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,880
information through me, but she
absolutely started down that

1170
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:25,520
road in terms of her
understanding.

1171
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:27,760
So like when I would explain
something to her, she would be

1172
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,680
very engaged and ask meaningful
questions and challenge things

1173
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:32,280
that she didn't made think made
sense.

1174
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:36,000
And so in terms of like the
world view, yes.

1175
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,280
In terms of the reading, not so
much.

1176
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:40,680
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

1177
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:43,160
OK.
So and when you say scriptures,

1178
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,680
are you are you looking at
different faith traditions?

1179
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,160
Are you sticking mainly with the
Judeo-christian, you know,

1180
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:50,000
scriptures?
What?

1181
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,240
Mostly like the Abrahamic mostly
like the Abrahamic stuff.

1182
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:58,640
So I read the Bible, I read the
Quran, I had read some of the

1183
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,680
Apocrypha.
I even I even read something

1184
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,360
called the Kitabi Akdas, which
belongs to the Baha'is.

1185
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,920
That's a I don't wanna offend
anybody, but that is a weird

1186
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,520
religion, very like liberal
globalist stuff.

1187
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:14,080
It feels like the UN created it.
There's, there's I I really just

1188
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:18,360
looked for inspired books like
give me something so that

1189
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:22,200
something can click for me, so
that I can understand like what

1190
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,160
it is that I should be doing
here.

1191
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,120
OK, all right, good enough.
So you, you.

1192
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:29,840
So you start tearing things
apart.

1193
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:33,920
Yep.
What happens next So.

1194
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:45,600
The so I didn't realize this at
the time, but the problem with

1195
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,640
religion is the institutions
that surround the practice

1196
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:52,360
generally.
And so I would, I would read

1197
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:57,040
something and then I'd be like,
OK, so you know, like the Quran,

1198
01:04:57,040 --> 01:04:59,520
right?
And so, so I read the Quran and

1199
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:00,880
there's some really good stuff
in there.

1200
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:02,520
And I still think that's an
inspired book.

1201
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:05,040
Like, I don't think that, you
know, like I, I don't.

1202
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:07,320
OK, so let's back up for a
second because I think this is,

1203
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:09,200
this is an important way to
frame this.

1204
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,840
So there's probably a lot of
Mormon fundamentalist types that

1205
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:13,840
would totally disagree with this
characterization, but there's

1206
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,000
probably a lot that would agree.
To me, scripture is, to borrow a

1207
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:18,560
liberal term, it's kind of a
spectrum.

1208
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:22,120
And so there are things that are
very obviously not inspired,

1209
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:27,520
like my 4th graders writing
assignment, like most likely,

1210
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,360
unless she's, you know, if she's
talking about like what I did

1211
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,800
last weekend, it's, it's
probably not an inspired work.

1212
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,760
And then there are things that
are to me definitively inspired,

1213
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:38,040
like the Book of Mormon, like
there is no question in my mind

1214
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,200
this fits the definition of
scripture.

1215
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,840
But then I think that throughout
the history of world religions,

1216
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,600
because I don't know what God is
doing with other people, or I

1217
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:49,920
mean, I don't even know if they,
you know, we believe in a

1218
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:51,280
plurality of gods.
I don't even know if they're

1219
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:53,000
answering to the same one.
Like, I don't know.

1220
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,760
We, you know, Joseph Smith said
that a world defines like, sort

1221
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:58,800
of like the, the, the lineage of
people in a religious aspect.

1222
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:00,040
Maybe they belong to a different
world.

1223
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:01,040
I don't fully know.
I don't know.

1224
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:03,560
It's not up to me to decide.
But what I do know is the

1225
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:10,240
content in these scriptures in
many cases seems to me to be

1226
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:12,720
very inspired.
And I wouldn't consider them

1227
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:15,920
like Canon in my world, like
because the Quran says it

1228
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:18,440
doesn't necessarily mean that
like it's something I believe.

1229
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,640
But what I would say is that if
there's something I believe and

1230
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:25,240
the Quran seems to accept the
same basic premise and then

1231
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:28,040
elaborate a little further on
what that means, it's probably

1232
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,680
valuable information.
And so that's kind of the way

1233
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:34,880
that I think about scripture.
And so at the, at the time, I, I

1234
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,640
would, and I'd read, I'd read
this stuff and I'd go, OK, well,

1235
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:39,800
so who's the people that believe
this and how do they practice?

1236
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:44,720
And I'd always, I'd always find
these like weird habits that I

1237
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:49,360
or, or practices that I just
wasn't OK with like that, that I

1238
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:51,520
just couldn't get over in my
mind because intuitively.

1239
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:53,840
So you remember that like
spirituality for atheists that

1240
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:55,960
we talked about where you can
sort of infer something about

1241
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,240
the human condition just by
using common sense.

1242
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:04,120
There were things in much of the
religious practice surrounding

1243
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:07,400
these scriptures that made me
go, no, that's, that's not for

1244
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:09,440
me.
So like an example of this is,

1245
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:14,240
you know, one of the most
fascinating religious groups,

1246
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,160
partly because of its
independence, but then partly

1247
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,000
because of some very interesting
similarities later, I would

1248
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,800
learn to Mormonism is Sikhism,
which came out of the Punjab in

1249
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:24,520
India.
And they've got this holy book

1250
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:28,160
called the Sri Guru Grant Sahib.
And, and this, this book

1251
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,720
contains a whole bunch of
totally inspired stuff.

1252
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:34,880
OK, like, but it's not all the
way there.

1253
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,000
There's, there's parts from like
this is goofy.

1254
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:40,120
And one of the things that these
people do is they, they've got

1255
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:42,480
this practice.
They, they call it the the five

1256
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,520
KSI don't remember exactly what
it all means, but basically they

1257
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:48,400
don't cut their hair, they don't
cut their beards.

1258
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,360
The women don't either.
The women don't like really

1259
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:55,120
groom themselves at all.
And they, they always wear like

1260
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:58,520
a knife and a comb.
And it's, it's, it's like weird

1261
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:00,720
stuff, you know, so like, and I,
and I believe most of them are

1262
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:02,120
vegetarians.
They don't eat, they don't eat

1263
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:05,440
meat.
And like, I just, I listen to

1264
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,760
this, I, I meet people that sort
of belong to this tradition.

1265
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,160
I ask questions and I'm just
going intuitively, this doesn't

1266
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:13,760
seem correct.
You know, like there doesn't

1267
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:15,800
seem to be, I'm sure that
there's like a reason that these

1268
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:18,680
rituals exist and those things
probably resonate very deeply to

1269
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:20,080
people that belong to that
tradition.

1270
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:22,319
But very obviously this kind of
thing is not something that

1271
01:08:22,319 --> 01:08:24,720
resonates with me.
And it, and it, it, it doesn't

1272
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:28,560
make sense to me.
And so though I find

1273
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:30,880
inspiration, I'm not going to go
join up, right?

1274
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:32,840
Like there's just things that
make me guys weird.

1275
01:08:33,279 --> 01:08:37,680
And that was kind of the nature
of the way that I interacted

1276
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,240
with almost all the scriptures.
I would just, I'd, I'd go

1277
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,560
looking for, well, who's the
people that this is fairly

1278
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:45,000
inspired?
Who's the people that practice

1279
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:46,479
it?
And then I would just find that

1280
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:49,800
there were things that I
couldn't, I couldn't get past,

1281
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:55,920
you know, like in certain
traditions, you know, like one

1282
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,200
of the traditions that totally
fascinates me in terms of

1283
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:03,760
theology, because it's
remarkably close to early

1284
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:07,680
Gnostic Christian theology.
And in many ways, it's very

1285
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:13,680
close to if if we had a bigger
tradition of theology and

1286
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:17,760
Mormonism and and specifically
like metaphysics, I think that

1287
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:22,319
it would probably be like what
you would call Neoplatonism is

1288
01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:23,920
the foundation of where where
I'm going.

1289
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:27,840
And I think that actually sort
of lines up fairly well with the

1290
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,200
idea that the father and in the
lectures on faith that the

1291
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:32,359
father and the son are two
person is in the Holy Ghost is

1292
01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:33,840
sort of like the universal
intellect, right?

1293
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:38,520
That concept of the universal
intellect is something that was

1294
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:43,720
first written down in a way that
I'm aware of in this 50 volume

1295
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:49,560
series of books by these these
guys that were Ismaili Muslims

1296
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,319
in the Safavid Empire in the
11th century.

1297
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:54,800
ADI believe they were called the
Epistles of the Brethren of

1298
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:56,680
Purity.
And so these guys would get

1299
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,840
together and they would write
these treatises on the

1300
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,640
metaphysics of who God was and
you know, like their

1301
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,000
relationship to God and things
that weren't even related to

1302
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,680
math and stuff like that.
And it's fascinating.

1303
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:09,600
It's really good stuff.
And I think a lot of that

1304
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:11,680
actually lines up reasonably
well.

1305
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,400
And I'm sure that the
theologians that are listening

1306
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,200
to this are probably just
cringing because I'm not

1307
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:18,000
explaining it very well, but
lines up reasonably well.

1308
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:23,720
I found out later with Mormon
idea, Mormon doctrines around,

1309
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:27,200
like who is God and who is the
Son and what is the nature of

1310
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:28,480
the Holy Spirit, all these kinds
of things.

1311
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:35,000
But that group of people has
this really, really strong

1312
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,640
deference to the guy in charge
in a way that I just, I just

1313
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:41,520
can't stomach.
And so like, I knew that wasn't

1314
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:43,360
right, right.
Like, and I, I mean, I really

1315
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:47,280
studied to try and figure out
what it was that I believed and

1316
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:50,640
I just, man, I couldn't,
couldn't find nothing.

1317
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:52,040
You know, Christianity is a
funny one too.

1318
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:54,160
Like, like, like regular, like
mainstream Christianity.

1319
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:57,280
You know, one of the things that
I just couldn't get past and

1320
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:02,120
later fundamentalism made total
sense to me for this is so I am

1321
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:05,920
not, I have, I have one wife.
I'm not married plurally.

1322
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:11,120
And that is, I've heard these
stories, conversion stories of

1323
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:11,680
guys.
Oh yeah.

1324
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:13,360
You know, I became a
fundamentalist because I had

1325
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,320
this revelation that I was gonna
live celestial plural marriage.

1326
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:19,000
And you know, I have not had
that revelation.

1327
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:25,960
But the old patriarchs of the
Bible were all polygamists and,

1328
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:30,120
and modern Christianity, non
Mormon Christianity and I guess

1329
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,280
even the LDS church condemned
polygamy so hard.

1330
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,680
I could never get over the
contradiction of then what do

1331
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:40,520
you do with Abraham?
You know, like that just

1332
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,880
bothered me.
Like I thought that it was wrong

1333
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,400
before becoming a Mormon.
I never understood the spiritual

1334
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:50,040
value of something like this.
You know, before you understand

1335
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:53,200
like the celestial Kingdom and,
and the progression to godhood

1336
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:56,800
and, and, and, and, and, and
the, the, the, the fact that we

1337
01:11:57,160 --> 01:11:59,080
have spirit parents and all
these kinds of things.

1338
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:04,120
Before you understand all that
plural marriage is not like a

1339
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:07,080
moral, like it's, it's, it's not
like a moral obligation.

1340
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:08,640
It's not a commandment in that
context.

1341
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:10,480
But I never thought it was like
wrong.

1342
01:12:10,480 --> 01:12:11,680
I just.
Like I didn't.

1343
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:13,840
Think it was a commandment, but
I never thought it was wrong.

1344
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,840
And then I would read the Bible
and I'd be like, well, these

1345
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:18,760
guys are doing it.
Why is this so bad?

1346
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:21,080
This doesn't make any sense.
And to me, that was such a

1347
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:23,480
logical conflict I could never
get past it.

1348
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:26,280
OK, All right.
No, that that does make sense,

1349
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:29,160
right?
It's hard to condemn the

1350
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:33,960
religion that you live in.
If you, or let me rephrase that,

1351
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:37,440
it's hard to fully embrace the
religion you live in if you're

1352
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:41,200
from one of the Abrahamic
traditions and then turn around

1353
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:44,480
and and castigate plural
marriage, right?

1354
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:47,240
I mean, it just doesn't seem to
make sense.

1355
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,920
And, and one of my favorite
arguments to the folks who like

1356
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:56,080
to deny it is like, well, seemed
to work out OK in producing the

1357
01:12:56,080 --> 01:13:00,600
savior.
But but yeah, no, I I agree with

1358
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:02,400
you.
There's an there's an obvious

1359
01:13:03,480 --> 01:13:05,360
conflict there.
Yep.

1360
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:12,840
So that was actually the thing
that ended up like in a very

1361
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:14,920
roundabout kind of way, getting
me to fundamentalism.

1362
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:18,600
So what happened was, is I
wanted to resolve that conflict

1363
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:23,560
in my mind very badly because I
knew that I belonged to a

1364
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:25,920
Western culture.
And I think that culture is

1365
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,960
extremely powerful in terms of
the lens through which you

1366
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:31,640
understand your relationship to
God.

1367
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:35,320
And I also think that when we
talk about a culture, we may be

1368
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:37,600
talking about the thing that
Joseph Smith referred to as a

1369
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,120
world, you know.
And so like this to me, this is

1370
01:13:40,440 --> 01:13:43,720
this is extremely powerful.
And so I knew that I belonged to

1371
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:46,720
Western culture that was of a
Christian tradition.

1372
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:49,120
And so I thought that it would
make the most sense for me to

1373
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:51,920
spend my time trying to resolve
some of the conflicts regarding

1374
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:54,640
Christianity in my mind.
And the plural marriage question

1375
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:57,520
was a big one, just because it
just felt like such a bizarre

1376
01:13:57,520 --> 01:13:59,920
oversight that all of the
historic Old Testament

1377
01:13:59,920 --> 01:14:02,800
patriarchs live this way.
And yet it's supposed to be one

1378
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:04,680
of the most evil sins that you
can perform.

1379
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:06,840
Like I can't, I can't reconcile
these two.

1380
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:12,160
So I start trying to, well, I
come across polygamy in the

1381
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:15,320
Bible by Ogden Kraut and I was
like, oh, this is interesting.

1382
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:18,640
I should read this.
And, and, and, and what he, what

1383
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,880
he, what he, his basic argument
is, is, you know, the

1384
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:24,320
condemnations of polygamy are
coming from the institutions of

1385
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:26,520
religion outside of the Bible.
They're not coming from the

1386
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:29,440
Bible itself.
And that was when the light bulb

1387
01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:32,800
went off for me.
I was like, Oh, so the religion

1388
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:37,000
is actually.
Want more from the Mormon

1389
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:40,680
Renegade podcast?
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1390
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:44,600
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1391
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:46,760
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1392
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:51,160
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1393
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:54,200
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1394
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:58,000
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1395
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:01,840
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1396
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:04,920
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1397
01:15:05,440 --> 01:15:08,560
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

1398
01:15:09,440 --> 01:15:14,200
Well, I come across polygamy in
the Bible by Ogden Kraut and I

1399
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:15,640
was like, Oh, this is
interesting.

1400
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,960
I should read this.
And and, and and what he, what

1401
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:22,160
he, what he, his basic argument
is, is, you know, the

1402
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:24,640
condemnations of polygamy are
coming from the institutions of

1403
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:26,840
religion outside of the Bible.
They're not coming from the

1404
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:29,720
Bible itself, right.
And that was when the light bulb

1405
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,080
went off for me.
I was like, Oh, so the religion

1406
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:38,200
is actually more the scripture,
right?

1407
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,960
The scripture is kind of where
you're grounded, not in the

1408
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:43,920
actual institution that
surrounds the scripture.

1409
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,800
And that was the first kind of
like light bulb where I went,

1410
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:51,400
OK, so you can actually draw a
totally different conclusion

1411
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:55,560
that sucks and is wrong when we
read the same book.

1412
01:15:56,080 --> 01:16:00,040
And so then that's when I knew
that guy was a Mormon.

1413
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,120
And so then I was like, oh, I
should read the Book of Mormon

1414
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:04,080
because, you know, I don't know,
this guy's pretty reasonable.

1415
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:07,920
And so let me read that.
And then that's where I, that's

1416
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:09,960
where Mormonism started.
So I can stop there.

1417
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:11,280
And then if you have any
questions.

1418
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:15,920
Yeah, so in some ways you're
already gearing yourself up to

1419
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,440
be a fundamentalist and you kind
of don't know it, right?

1420
01:16:18,480 --> 01:16:21,160
Yes.
You already have a problem with

1421
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:26,400
draconian rule, right?
And that's gonna put you at odds

1422
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:31,880
with the LDS church with, with
any, any structure that's super

1423
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:34,920
hierarchical and, and you have
to live by that.

1424
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:39,120
So, so, so you know, LDS church
is probably out.

1425
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:42,200
And then you make a very
important distinction that I

1426
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:44,960
think it takes a lot of Mormons,
especially coming out of the LDS

1427
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:47,440
Church to wrap their minds
around, right?

1428
01:16:47,440 --> 01:16:51,960
Which is you, you put it as
scripture over the institution,

1429
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:54,280
right?
Is, is that the religion is the

1430
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:55,320
scripture?
And then you have the

1431
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:59,240
institution which is trying to
administer this, yes, this

1432
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:03,520
program.
We've had those kind of debates

1433
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:07,040
within Mormonisms for years with
scripture with it.

1434
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:12,920
And, and it also further kind of
complicates the matter when you

1435
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:17,000
start realizing that that when
someone's moved upon by the Holy

1436
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:20,000
Ghost and they're speaking by
the Holy Ghost, the DNC tells us

1437
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:21,720
that's kind of scripture too,
right?

1438
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:25,520
And so now you have all of these
early brethren, they're talking

1439
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:27,000
about this.
And we have the same thing with

1440
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:30,160
priesthood, right?
And, and so in some ways you've

1441
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:32,920
managed to answer the question a
lot quicker probably 'cause you

1442
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:37,880
didn't come from a very
hierarchical church experience,

1443
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:39,120
right?
You did have a little bit of

1444
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:42,080
time in the, in the Catholic
Church, but that didn't leave

1445
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:44,640
much of an impression.
So you're able to kind of get

1446
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:48,440
rid of the junk that some of the
institutions bring and you're

1447
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:51,880
able to get grounded right
inside the scripture, right

1448
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:57,240
inside principle over over the
philosophies of men.

1449
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:00,080
Yep.
So now when you do this and you

1450
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:02,160
pick up the Book of Mormon, what
happens then?

1451
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:08,200
So I read the Book of Mormon and
you know, you, you gotta

1452
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:12,240
understand, OK, And I'm not
really saying this to you,

1453
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:13,880
'cause I think you mentioned you
had converted.

1454
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:18,560
But like to those in your
audience that grew up in the LDS

1455
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:22,680
Church, the idea that these
people, the Nephites and the

1456
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,240
Lamanites, who you have never
heard of in any of your public

1457
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:27,960
school education and in any of
your archaeology and the

1458
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:30,320
Smithsonian Institution has
never mentioned them.

1459
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:33,880
You know, never mind by the way,
that there is a temple in Belize

1460
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:35,840
whose pre Columbian name has
been preserved.

1461
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:37,560
And it's a point of pride for
the local people.

1462
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:39,640
And it's called Lamani, the
temple of Lamani.

1463
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:41,360
You never never mind any of
that, right?

1464
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:44,120
But so but so you.
Know.

1465
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:45,920
Just a coincidence.
Exactly.

1466
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:49,520
So, so, you know, you never
heard of any of this stuff and

1467
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:52,720
it rewrites your understanding
of of the North American

1468
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:54,480
continent.
And so this cognitive

1469
01:18:54,480 --> 01:18:58,440
dissonance, it was, you know,
first of all, I read the book

1470
01:18:58,440 --> 01:19:01,240
and I go, hey, look, I mean,
this is this is this is a very

1471
01:19:01,240 --> 01:19:04,720
impressive book and it contains
a lot of eternal wisdom.

1472
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:07,400
And I think it is inspired kind
of like how I thought about most

1473
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:13,560
of the other scripture that I
had read, but I had a lot of

1474
01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:16,160
cognitive dissonance over the
idea that like this was this

1475
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,840
thing that we just don't really
have much of a record of

1476
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:19,800
anymore.
I hadn't.

1477
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,320
I hadn't ever listened to a
Wayne May talk at this.

1478
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:25,160
Point so like.
I didn't, I didn't realize that

1479
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:28,160
was also not right.
But but at the time, yeah, yeah,

1480
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:30,680
yeah.
And I, I, I, I, so at the time,

1481
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:37,000
I, I was just like, hey, you
know, this, this is this totally

1482
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:39,600
undermines almost everything I
thought about the history of

1483
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:42,600
where I live.
And so it's really hard for me

1484
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,760
to get past that cognitive
dissonance.

1485
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:49,680
Then I started finding out a
little bit more about the

1486
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:52,160
circumstances surrounding the
book.

1487
01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:54,160
So I, so I was totally willing
to concede that it was an

1488
01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:55,800
inspired book.
OK.

1489
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:02,000
And then I discovered that some
of the people that to me, and

1490
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:04,560
this is probably gonna be very
controversial if anybody that's

1491
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:07,800
not a Mormon ever hears this,
but that's OK to me, some of the

1492
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:10,800
people that I look at as like
modern day folk heroes.

1493
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:13,640
Were moved by Mormonism.
So one of the one of the one of

1494
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:15,400
the coolest things that I
figured out is do you remember

1495
01:20:15,400 --> 01:20:17,480
the Bundy Ranch standoff?
Do you remember that, like in

1496
01:20:17,480 --> 01:20:19,040
2014?
Yeah.

1497
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:20,880
So for anybody that's not
listening, here's what happened.

1498
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:23,480
OK, so there's this guy Cliven
Bundy.

1499
01:20:23,480 --> 01:20:26,520
He's like an old, you know,
Nevada rancher and puts his foot

1500
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:28,280
in his mouth a lot.
He's not a great talker, but

1501
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:29,840
he's a rancher.
And so that ain't his job.

1502
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,520
And So what he does is he's
ranching his cows on some BLM

1503
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:35,480
land that he's been leasing for
a long time.

1504
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:39,200
And suddenly the BLM says, hey,
you can't graze your cows in

1505
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:42,000
that land anymore because
there's this tortoise that is

1506
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:45,680
endangered or something.
And Clive and Bundy in, you

1507
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:49,520
know, good old Nevada rancher
fashion, says, Nah, that's OK,

1508
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:51,200
I'm going to keep doing it.
And he does.

1509
01:20:51,440 --> 01:20:54,280
And so they start fining him,
and he racks up like, millions

1510
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:57,680
of dollars in grazing fees.
And eventually the BLM gets so

1511
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:00,600
pissed off at this guy that they
decide that they're going to

1512
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,600
swoop in with their helicopters
and tranquilizers and, and

1513
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:07,080
cattle trailers and they're just
going to take his cows.

1514
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:10,520
And so he calls his son Ammon,
who I think actually ran for

1515
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:12,920
governor of Idaho and got like
20% of the vote, which is

1516
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:15,960
awesome.
And Ammon calls his buddy and

1517
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:18,520
her buddies and they all show up
at the Bundy ranch with a bunch

1518
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:21,840
of guns and basically said, hey,
you know what you want these

1519
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:26,200
cows, you come and take them.
And man, to me, that's like the

1520
01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:28,320
spirit of what it means to be
American.

1521
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:32,360
Like if there is an organization
that is a more waste of that is

1522
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:36,200
a bigger waste of resources than
the BLMI don't know what it is.

1523
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:39,840
Did you know 98% of their budget
is spent wrangling up horses

1524
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:43,920
because you can't kill them on
the on the Plains in Nevada, 98%

1525
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:46,240
of their budget goes to making
sure that horses aren't killed

1526
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:49,200
on public.
Land dude, as a land surveyor, I

1527
01:21:49,200 --> 01:21:52,480
have to deal with them.
Yeah, time to time I got some

1528
01:21:52,480 --> 01:21:55,800
horror stories, right?
Like I believe it as a surveyor.

1529
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:59,080
I remember watching that and I
was like, you go get them, son,

1530
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:01,480
right.
Like put them in their place

1531
01:22:01,480 --> 01:22:05,280
'cause they are a crooked,
corrupt organization and.

1532
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:08,600
So, and, and so here's, here's a
bunch of guys that stand up for

1533
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:13,560
a righteous cause against the,
the, you know, Leviathan BLOB

1534
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:16,480
that is the administrative state
of the United States, which is

1535
01:22:16,480 --> 01:22:18,600
so far removed from what the
founders would have had it to

1536
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:21,600
be.
And I found out that guess what?

1537
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:25,520
They painted a little title of
liberty on a big old cloth and

1538
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:27,720
they flew it right over the
entrance to the Bundy ranch when

1539
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:31,440
that happened.
And I went, oh, oh, these guys

1540
01:22:31,440 --> 01:22:34,160
are motivated by the principles
that are contained in this book

1541
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:36,160
that I like.
Those guys.

1542
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:37,760
They're, you know, they're doing
some of the right stuff.

1543
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:40,320
That's pretty interesting.
So that was one thing.

1544
01:22:40,480 --> 01:22:44,560
Another thing that happened was,
is I found out about the writing

1545
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:46,840
process.
So this is, this is crazy too

1546
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:48,720
for anybody that's never just
thought about this for a second.

1547
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:51,000
OK, so let's talk about the Book
of Mormon.

1548
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:58,000
So the Book of Mormon,
ostensibly the story goes, the

1549
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:00,000
Book of Mormon is discovered by
Joseph Smith.

1550
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:01,760
It's these golden plates.
And then, you know, through the

1551
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:04,320
power of God, he learns to
translate this ancient and dead

1552
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:09,440
language, and he dictates the
contents of the book to a series

1553
01:23:09,440 --> 01:23:11,320
of scribes that write it down at
his behalf.

1554
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:15,520
And eventually it gets compiled
and then sort of rewritten into

1555
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:17,400
a printer's manuscript.
And then it hits the press and

1556
01:23:17,400 --> 01:23:23,800
it becomes a book.
So it's kind of a crazy story.

1557
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:26,280
Like, like if you were a non, I
mean, even if you are a Mormon,

1558
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:28,440
I think you just have to be
like, OK, that's a crazy story.

1559
01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:32,280
Like that's that's nuts.
And, and just the idea of even

1560
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:35,160
imagining like discovering some
golden plates with an ancient

1561
01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:38,680
religion, you know, start with
an ancient language that

1562
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:42,040
contained these sort of deep
eternal truths of, you know, an

1563
01:23:42,040 --> 01:23:44,880
ancient people that were very
religious and, you know, faced a

1564
01:23:44,880 --> 01:23:46,520
lot of struggles.
And I mean, the whole thing just

1565
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:49,280
for you to just dictate that and
figure out how to do it.

1566
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:52,200
I mean, it just seems nuts.
But then I learned the

1567
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:54,880
counterfactual.
And so the counterfactual

1568
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:57,360
argument is if you just pretend
just for the sake of this

1569
01:23:57,360 --> 01:23:59,920
argument, Joseph Smith was a
deceitful liar and he made all

1570
01:23:59,920 --> 01:24:01,440
of it up, right.
OK, fine.

1571
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:03,600
The sickest argument, he makes
it all up.

1572
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:09,000
Well, that means that 1/2
literate country boy from

1573
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:15,000
upstate New York with no access
to, you know, any real

1574
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:19,520
meaningful libraries or other
content writes one of the most

1575
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:23,680
sophisticated books in the
history of the English language

1576
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:27,480
on a first draft in four working
weeks.

1577
01:24:28,440 --> 01:24:31,920
Yeah, like, that sounds even
crazier to me.

1578
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:35,400
Like I can believe that that
that like the inspired work of

1579
01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:40,280
God motivates somebody to to to
move mountains sooner than I can

1580
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:44,400
believe that some oh Donk Hick
managed to figure that one out.

1581
01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:47,880
Yeah, dude, I had a college
professor.

1582
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:50,880
I took a course in Jacksonian
America, and you can't really

1583
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:53,520
talk about Jacksonian America
without talking about the

1584
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:57,480
Mormons, right?
And I remember there was a small

1585
01:24:57,480 --> 01:24:59,480
section, like it was half a
class is all.

1586
01:24:59,480 --> 01:25:02,440
We talked about it.
But he said something very

1587
01:25:02,440 --> 01:25:04,720
interesting.
He says as you approach Joseph

1588
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:08,520
Smith, you can come up with only
one of two conclusions.

1589
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:14,000
He was either exactly what he
said he was, or he was the most

1590
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:18,160
raw genius this certainly
America maybe the world has ever

1591
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:19,280
produced.
Yep.

1592
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:23,000
Yep, point blank.
And then he ran down his resume,

1593
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:24,440
right.
And and just like you were

1594
01:25:24,440 --> 01:25:27,000
saying, the book of Mormons, one
of them, the other.

1595
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:32,120
How do you get people to follow
you like he did without threat

1596
01:25:32,120 --> 01:25:37,800
of force, right.
And, and really share power the

1597
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:41,160
way he did, right?
Yeah, all those things.

1598
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:44,520
I I I that resonates with me
what you said cause 'cause I've

1599
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:46,560
had those same thoughts.
Yep, Yep.

1600
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:49,840
So once I learned what the
counterfactual argument was or

1601
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:52,880
what it would entail to say that
Joseph Smith was just lying and

1602
01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:54,400
deceitful and full, you know
what?

1603
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:57,280
Then I went, oh, I, that doesn't
make any sense.

1604
01:25:58,080 --> 01:26:04,800
Then I then I came across Hugh
Nibley and that was when I read

1605
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:08,720
Lehigh in the Desert.
And if you ever need to convince

1606
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:12,240
a non Mormon that Joseph Smith
was on to something, have him

1607
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:15,960
read the first book of Nephi and
then have him read Lehigh in the

1608
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:18,960
Desert because that makes you
go.

1609
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:22,880
Right, like mind.
Blown.

1610
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:28,720
You can't even believe it.
And so so I read it and you

1611
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:30,040
know, there's all kinds of stuff
in there.

1612
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:33,000
Like, for example, you know,
Joseph Smith was made fun of

1613
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,080
profusely by the early, you
know, sort of opponents of

1614
01:26:36,080 --> 01:26:38,160
Mormonism because Alma was a
girl's name.

1615
01:26:38,160 --> 01:26:40,760
And they find out that right
around the time that Lehigh made

1616
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:43,600
his journey, it actually was a
guy's name in Judaism.

1617
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:47,000
And, you know, and they and they
mentioned that they buried

1618
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:50,480
Ishmael at the altar at Nahom
and an altar of uncut stone.

1619
01:26:50,480 --> 01:26:52,600
And then sure enough, in the
middle of the Saudi Arabian

1620
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:56,520
desert in 1953, they find an
altar of uncut stone with the

1621
01:26:56,520 --> 01:26:59,520
inscription Nahom on it.
Like, I mean, come on, man.

1622
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:01,800
Like there's, there's so many of
these things.

1623
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:05,360
And Hugh Nibbley just runs down
the list and high in the desert.

1624
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:08,680
And that's when I was like, this
is basically when I was there at

1625
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:10,960
this point.
I'm like, OK, this is this is

1626
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,800
real.
Then what I would call the last

1627
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:18,720
straw was the Book of Moses,
Book of Giants story.

1628
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:21,600
So for anybody that's not
familiar, I'll I'll just retell

1629
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:22,880
this as though nobody
understands it.

1630
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:27,200
And that way there's no gaps.
So and there might be non

1631
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:29,320
Mormons listening to this.
So we'll go ahead and just, I

1632
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:31,280
mean, on the off chance that's
true, I'm going to explain even

1633
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:33,520
what the book of Moses is.
So the book of Moses is

1634
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:36,280
basically Joseph Smith's
revisions.

1635
01:27:36,280 --> 01:27:37,840
He would they would call it a
translation.

1636
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:39,880
We would call it a translation
in Mormonism, but it's not

1637
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:42,080
translation the way you would
think about like, oh, this is

1638
01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:43,640
Hebrew.
I'm going to make it German or

1639
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:46,480
something.
It's it's Joseph Smith took the

1640
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:50,160
book of Genesis and then through
the inspiration power of God,

1641
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:54,200
removed and added things that
made it more correctly in line

1642
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:57,600
with what would have been the
early contents of the book of

1643
01:27:57,600 --> 01:27:59,240
Genesis.
And one of the things that he

1644
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:01,240
did in the book of Moses is the
out of the Enoch story.

1645
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:04,120
And, and there's this, I mean,
you know, added much of the

1646
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:05,840
Enoch story.
And so there's this whole like

1647
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:08,680
story about this guy Enoch and
all these things that Enoch is

1648
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:11,680
doing and whatever.
So he writes, he writes the book

1649
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:15,080
of Moses and he is of course the
recipient of hostile

1650
01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:17,440
condemnation early on.
And you know, what kind of

1651
01:28:17,440 --> 01:28:20,160
hubris must you have to go and
change the contents of the

1652
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:21,600
Bible?
You know, you must think you're

1653
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:23,320
as good as God himself, all this
type of stuff.

1654
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:29,000
OK, well, Joseph Smith obviously
dies in 1844 and nobody is like

1655
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:33,840
he hasn't been vindicated at
this point yet to non believers,

1656
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:37,600
Right?
Well, then in 1947 or 53 or

1657
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:40,760
whatever it was, the Dead Sea
Scrolls are discovered.

1658
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:43,920
And one of these scrolls that
gets translated is what's called

1659
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:47,960
the Book of Giants.
And the Book of Giants is, I

1660
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:50,680
think actually, if I'm not
mistaken, it's the most popular

1661
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:56,920
book at the at the Qumran Caves.
I think it's the one they found

1662
01:28:56,920 --> 01:29:00,240
the most copies of.
And so the Book of the Giants

1663
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:04,000
includes the Enoch story, and
Joseph Smith's Enoch story was

1664
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:06,280
one nobody had ever.
There was all kinds of Enoch

1665
01:29:06,280 --> 01:29:09,480
stories from Apocrypha that had
existed throughout the years and

1666
01:29:09,480 --> 01:29:15,280
traditions and stuff.
But but there, the stuff he

1667
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:19,920
added was really specific kind
of stuff that was not like you

1668
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:21,280
wouldn't find it in other Enoch
stories.

1669
01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:24,720
Well, so the Book of Giants,
it's translated by a guy named

1670
01:29:24,720 --> 01:29:31,800
Matthew Black and the astute and
late great Hugh Nibley just so

1671
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:34,040
happens to notice that, oh,
these are word for word the

1672
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,160
exact same.
And when I say word for word, I

1673
01:29:36,160 --> 01:29:40,000
don't literally mean like, you
know, precise sentence and

1674
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:43,760
grammar, but like you can read
each sentence and they're saying

1675
01:29:43,760 --> 01:29:46,200
the exact same thing in just
slightly different ways.

1676
01:29:46,440 --> 01:29:48,640
But it, but I mean, it's, it's
the same thing.

1677
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:52,800
It's the exact same story line
by line.

1678
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:57,320
And I, I learn that and I go,
OK, I'm in.

1679
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:00,680
And then that was, that was
pretty much that man.

1680
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:02,600
Yep.
So I'll, I'll tell you what, I

1681
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:05,160
just had a guy on here, I
haven't released it yet, but we

1682
01:30:05,160 --> 01:30:07,600
were talking about the Book of
Enoch.

1683
01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:11,520
Yeah.
And Even so, like the closest

1684
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:16,800
book of Enoch to Joseph Smith
during his time was available in

1685
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:21,160
French in France, Right.
Well, we know he's not getting a

1686
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:23,840
hold of that, right.
One, he doesn't speak French.

1687
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:25,920
He's struggling enough with
English at this point.

1688
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:29,360
Right.
He writes it, but there were

1689
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:31,800
bullseyes even within that,
right?

1690
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:35,800
That that essentially, again,
you gotta be like, either Joseph

1691
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:39,400
Smith was a prophet or he was a
damn good guesser, right?

1692
01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:42,560
I mean, it was 22 options you're
left with.

1693
01:30:43,080 --> 01:30:45,760
I I like the bullseye term
because the way that I would

1694
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:49,880
describe it is either Joseph
Smith got this right because he

1695
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:55,640
was inspired by the power of the
Lord, or that man won the

1696
01:30:55,640 --> 01:30:59,600
lottery like five times a day
for his whole life.

1697
01:30:59,760 --> 01:31:01,400
Like this.
Like the statistical

1698
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:04,680
improbability of this guy
getting the number of things

1699
01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:07,320
correct down to the minutiae to
include.

1700
01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:11,040
Like the philologically correct
naming conventions, if you

1701
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:15,280
combine Egyptian and Hebrew
naming traditions, like all of

1702
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:19,040
this kind of stuff that this
dude got right, you would have

1703
01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:21,880
had to be like I said, it'd be
like winning the lottery five

1704
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:23,520
times a day for your entire
life.

1705
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:26,600
Like it is just a statistical
impossibility that he guessed

1706
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:28,720
all this stuff.
Yep, absolutely.

1707
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:36,440
So OK, so now OK first once you
are like, oh man, it's in

1708
01:31:36,440 --> 01:31:41,600
Mormonism.
What was your first thoughts I.

1709
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:44,600
Don't know, just like this is
obviously correct.

1710
01:31:45,200 --> 01:31:48,240
I mean, I guess about Mormons,
the only thing that I noticed is

1711
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:51,880
like I would know Mormons in my
life that always seemed to do

1712
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:54,040
things well.
You know, like, one of the

1713
01:31:54,040 --> 01:32:00,320
problems of modern culture is we
don't really have like a, a

1714
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:02,600
meritorious culture of
excellence anymore.

1715
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:05,520
We're like, you're judged by
your ability to be competent at

1716
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:07,080
something.
And I think competence is

1717
01:32:07,080 --> 01:32:09,560
something that our culture is
just generally lacking, right.

1718
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:13,200
But I noticed that a lot of
Mormon people that I knew were

1719
01:32:13,200 --> 01:32:14,800
like pretty skilled and pretty
competent.

1720
01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:17,320
And they seem to be upright
people and they had big families

1721
01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:21,000
and, and they seemed to
generally be financially

1722
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:24,040
responsible.
And whenever they had pursuits

1723
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:26,720
that I was aware of, they always
seemed to be competent in those

1724
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:29,840
pursuits.
And so I think if I thought

1725
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:32,120
anything about Mormonism, 'cause
I don't think I thought a ton

1726
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:35,840
about it, it was, hey, guys,
like AM and Bundy are Mormons,

1727
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:37,840
and the ones I know are doing
pretty good.

1728
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:39,800
So, I mean, I don't know, maybe
there's something to this that

1729
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:42,920
would have been about the extent
to which I thought about

1730
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:47,120
Mormonism specifically.
OK, that's interesting because I

1731
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:49,800
was kind of, I was raised in
Western Idaho in my teenage

1732
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:52,080
years, right?
So we had plenty of exposure to

1733
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:56,600
to Mormons, right?
Played football with Mormons,

1734
01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:00,200
some of the best designated
drivers I ever had, right

1735
01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:03,920
growing up.
But I did not want any part of

1736
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:06,520
that crap, right.
I understood enough to be like,

1737
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:09,680
those dudes are weird, nice
guys, but weird.

1738
01:33:09,960 --> 01:33:13,720
And I want no part of it.
Like I argued with God, like I

1739
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:16,600
don't want to be a Mormon.
I don't think you understand.

1740
01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:20,800
I I get it but I don't want to
do it so.

1741
01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:23,000
So real quick, the designated
driver joke.

1742
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:25,960
Have you ever heard the joke?
Why do you always take two

1743
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:28,480
Mormons fishing?
That way they don't drink your

1744
01:33:28,480 --> 01:33:29,880
beer.
'Cause if you take one, he'll

1745
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:32,240
drink all your beer, yeah.
That's right, right?

1746
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:37,200
Yep, Yep.
That's there's there's more more

1747
01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:39,800
truth to that.
It it only for the LDS?

1748
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:41,200
Guy.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.

1749
01:33:41,440 --> 01:33:44,080
You know, I mean well, so.
Here's another funny story.

1750
01:33:44,080 --> 01:33:45,760
Sorry, I'm just kind of
hijacking your podcast.

1751
01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:47,920
Oh, you're good.
But so when I was living in

1752
01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:50,800
Missouri, so for anybody that's
not on the that isn't familiar

1753
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:53,360
with like where I live or my
life story, which is probably

1754
01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:56,800
like 99.99% of anybody that's
going to hear this.

1755
01:33:56,800 --> 01:34:01,280
I lived in Missouri for a while.
And the same place where a lot

1756
01:34:01,280 --> 01:34:03,400
of my Mormon brothers and
sisters still live, there's an

1757
01:34:03,400 --> 01:34:05,720
area in southwest Missouri where
there's a lot of people that

1758
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:07,800
live and they're doing some
really great work there.

1759
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:09,200
And I was living there for a
little while.

1760
01:34:09,480 --> 01:34:12,080
Now I live in Brownsville, TX.
If you don't know where

1761
01:34:12,080 --> 01:34:15,200
Brownsville is, go look at a map
of Texas and it's at the bottom.

1762
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:18,520
OK, But so I was living in
Missouri for a little while and

1763
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:23,800
when I was there, I had some
missionaries come to the house

1764
01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:26,880
and they're like, hey, have you.
And that was crazy.

1765
01:34:26,880 --> 01:34:30,640
That was really cool because I
needed, I needed another Book of

1766
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:35,040
Mormon because I've got the 1831
printing version that doesn't

1767
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:38,160
have versification.
And it's great because it's,

1768
01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:42,920
it's, it's, it's, it's, it's
like the way it was supposed to

1769
01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:44,400
be read.
It's not split up by the verses

1770
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:45,720
and stuff.
But if you need to find a

1771
01:34:45,720 --> 01:34:48,040
passage, it's really cumbersome,
like because you got to like

1772
01:34:48,040 --> 01:34:51,360
just search and read and search
and eventually get there.

1773
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:55,720
But I was, I was, I literally
said to my wife, I need another

1774
01:34:55,720 --> 01:34:57,440
Book of Mormon with
versification.

1775
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:01,600
And maybe 10 minutes later, the
door, I hear a knock on the door

1776
01:35:02,080 --> 01:35:04,960
and it's the two missionaries.
And they're like, hey, have you,

1777
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:07,200
you know, I'm so and so from the
LDS Church.

1778
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:09,440
I'm, I'm elder southern or other
and I'm elder something or

1779
01:35:09,440 --> 01:35:10,440
other.
And I was like, oh, hey, do you

1780
01:35:10,440 --> 01:35:11,640
have a Book of Mormon that I can
have?

1781
01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:13,800
And they're like, yeah.
And I'm like, cool, I need one

1782
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:15,600
munch, come on in.
And then I explained to them,

1783
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:20,440
you know, that we were, we were,
I tried not to use the term

1784
01:35:20,440 --> 01:35:23,040
fundamentalist.
And actually we should talk

1785
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:24,000
about that.
Let's talk about that.

1786
01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:25,720
By the way, what I think about
the term fundamentalist.

1787
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:30,360
But so I, I tried to explain it
like we're like old school

1788
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:31,800
Mormons.
Like we don't go to the church.

1789
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:34,240
We believe in all the same
things you do.

1790
01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:35,960
And actually probably we believe
it more.

1791
01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:38,080
You know, if you ever have a
faith crisis, give me a call

1792
01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:39,400
because we can probably help you
out.

1793
01:35:39,400 --> 01:35:45,640
And so I was explaining to him
the type of stuff that we

1794
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:47,720
believe in.
And it was a very engaging

1795
01:35:47,720 --> 01:35:50,640
conversation and very pleasant.
And they ended up leaving

1796
01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:52,280
feeling really good.
And I felt really good.

1797
01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:55,800
It was, it was a great time.
Like, you know, these are my my

1798
01:35:57,080 --> 01:35:59,000
brothers in the restoration.
And it's a little bit of a

1799
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:02,240
dysfunctional family, but, you
know, we're all sort of we all

1800
01:36:02,240 --> 01:36:04,320
belong to the same household,
the way I'm thinking about it.

1801
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:07,320
And and that's kind of my
general view of Mormonism.

1802
01:36:07,320 --> 01:36:14,720
And so one day I said, I'm, I'm
leaving Walmart and I've got a

1803
01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:19,640
six pack of beer in my hand.
And I walked by these two guys

1804
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:21,280
and I said, gentlemen, I got a
question for you.

1805
01:36:21,480 --> 01:36:25,320
And they said, what's up?
And I said, the word of wisdom

1806
01:36:25,640 --> 01:36:28,680
says that barley is for the
making of mild drinks.

1807
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:31,840
What is a mild drink to you?
And I held up the six pack of

1808
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:36,520
beer and one of em goes, I don't
know, I've wondered that myself.

1809
01:36:40,440 --> 01:36:42,280
It was post em.
That's what it was.

1810
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:44,600
It was post em.
No.

1811
01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:49,200
So OK, let's let's go back to
the story here.

1812
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:52,480
So you're like, oh, you know,
Mormonism's true.

1813
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:55,080
Yep, Yep.
Now you gotta go tell your wife.

1814
01:36:55,080 --> 01:36:57,080
What does she think when you
drop that that?

1815
01:36:57,080 --> 01:36:58,800
Bomb.
Well, I can't shut up.

1816
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:00,760
So I'm I'm telling her about
every little bit of.

1817
01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:02,000
Information.
OK, so all the.

1818
01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:03,520
She's coming along the whole
way.

1819
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:04,960
Yeah.
I mean, she's the whole time.

1820
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:07,800
She's like, she's like, oh,
that's really interesting.

1821
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:09,680
And if she thinks she can poke a
hole, she tries.

1822
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:12,440
And then I see if I can answer
the question by doing more

1823
01:37:12,440 --> 01:37:15,400
studying, and then we talk about
it and she's been coming along

1824
01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:17,200
the whole way.
This wasn't like, I just up and

1825
01:37:17,200 --> 01:37:19,120
one day was like, hey, we're
gonna be Mormons.

1826
01:37:19,120 --> 01:37:22,200
It was more so's like she was
aware of the process as it was

1827
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:24,000
occurring.
OK, all right.

1828
01:37:24,440 --> 01:37:27,480
And she's all on board as as you
guys are figuring this out.

1829
01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:30,840
So, so you're like, OK,
Mormonism's true.

1830
01:37:31,600 --> 01:37:33,320
What's your first action after
that?

1831
01:37:33,320 --> 01:37:35,280
Do you reach out to the LDS
missionaries?

1832
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:37,120
What do you?
Do so I didn't reach out to the

1833
01:37:37,120 --> 01:37:41,480
missionaries.
I got a hold of the Bishop and I

1834
01:37:41,480 --> 01:37:50,760
went to the local LDS church and
I I think we went for a total of

1835
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:55,200
like 3 meetings, but we had a
very bad experience and so I

1836
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:57,800
realized that wasn't it.
What was bad about it?

1837
01:37:58,600 --> 01:38:00,600
There was lots of things.
So first of all, and I'm not

1838
01:38:01,040 --> 01:38:03,840
asking to bash the LDS church.
No, no, no.

1839
01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:06,120
Yeah, I totally agree.
Like I, like I just said, these

1840
01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:07,920
are my brothers in the
Restoration.

1841
01:38:07,920 --> 01:38:13,360
So like I have, I don't have
hostility.

1842
01:38:14,040 --> 01:38:19,280
I don't intend to be insulting
towards Russell Nelson, none of

1843
01:38:19,280 --> 01:38:21,120
that kind of thing.
This is just the way I think.

1844
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:26,640
So there were some doctrines
that made a lot of sense to me.

1845
01:38:27,440 --> 01:38:30,920
The idea that, you know, we are
all brothers and sisters with

1846
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:33,720
heavenly parents.
The eternal progression to

1847
01:38:33,720 --> 01:38:36,720
godhood.
The plurality of gods, but only

1848
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:39,680
one that we care about.
Multiple levels of the celestial

1849
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:42,320
Kingdom.
The idea that there's only one

1850
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:45,720
unforgivable sin.
North America is the land of

1851
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:47,240
promise.
The gathering of Israel.

1852
01:38:47,240 --> 01:38:49,480
The importance of temple
worship, plural marriage.

1853
01:38:49,480 --> 01:38:54,520
I mean, at the time, right?
Remember, see, you had a podcast

1854
01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:59,520
with our good friend Michael
Ness and you said, you know, the

1855
01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:02,480
church kind of controls the
independent Book of Mormon study

1856
01:39:02,480 --> 01:39:04,960
groups and sort of tries to say,
hey, here's how you should study

1857
01:39:04,960 --> 01:39:07,360
the Book of Mormon.
And you made a comment that,

1858
01:39:07,560 --> 01:39:10,280
man, if we did, you know,
independent Bible study the way

1859
01:39:10,280 --> 01:39:12,920
the Baptists do, only we did
independent Book of Mormon

1860
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:15,120
study, you'd make a lot of
fundamentalists.

1861
01:39:15,440 --> 01:39:18,800
And that's exactly what I did.
I mean, I just kind of studied

1862
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:22,280
all this independently.
And then so to me, like, you

1863
01:39:22,280 --> 01:39:25,120
know, 132 and plural marriage, I
can see that.

1864
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:28,520
So the way that I had read it
was not so much that plural

1865
01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:31,600
marriage was because if it
depends on how you read it and

1866
01:39:31,640 --> 01:39:33,200
all that kind of thing.
But the way that I got it, at

1867
01:39:33,200 --> 01:39:38,680
least at first, was that plural
marriage was not an explicit

1868
01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:41,600
commandment for everybody.
But if you were commanded to do

1869
01:39:41,600 --> 01:39:43,480
it, then you then you must do
it.

1870
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:46,160
And it is not a bad thing and it
is not a sin.

1871
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:48,800
And to me that seemed very
logical.

1872
01:39:49,240 --> 01:39:53,000
But, you know, the church had a
issue with, you know, plural

1873
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:58,320
marriage.
And, and when I went to the LDS

1874
01:39:58,320 --> 01:40:03,440
church, a lot of these hard
hitting differentiating

1875
01:40:03,440 --> 01:40:07,720
doctrinal truths that make
Mormonism so fundamentally

1876
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:10,680
different from the rest of
Christianity in such an

1877
01:40:10,680 --> 01:40:13,480
important way.
You didn't hear them.

1878
01:40:14,080 --> 01:40:18,120
You'd hear these talks buy from
people and you might get a

1879
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:21,080
little hint here and there of
some of these, you know, sort of

1880
01:40:21,080 --> 01:40:24,200
more edgy doctrines.
But the real meat and potatoes

1881
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:27,480
felt like it was missing.
It kind of felt like the way the

1882
01:40:27,480 --> 01:40:30,360
LDS Church was presenting
themselves and this could be

1883
01:40:30,360 --> 01:40:33,840
just this church, I don't know,
was we're pretty much

1884
01:40:33,840 --> 01:40:39,160
Protestants with the third book.
And I just, it wasn't it for me,

1885
01:40:39,160 --> 01:40:40,480
man.
And then the other thing that I

1886
01:40:40,480 --> 01:40:43,480
didn't like is right around this
time, I went to Utah.

1887
01:40:43,480 --> 01:40:47,560
So my wife's parents, they moved
to Utah and they're not Mormons.

1888
01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:49,720
They just, in fact, I don't even
think they really like Mormons

1889
01:40:49,720 --> 01:40:50,840
very much.
I think they're uncomfortable

1890
01:40:50,840 --> 01:40:51,800
with the fact that we're
Mormons.

1891
01:40:52,000 --> 01:40:53,560
But they moved to Utah.
I don't know, maybe they're just

1892
01:40:53,560 --> 01:40:58,200
gluttons for punishment.
But so they moved to Utah and we

1893
01:40:58,200 --> 01:41:02,320
went to go visit and we went to
BYU just to walk around the

1894
01:41:02,320 --> 01:41:03,840
campus.
And I really like plants, so I

1895
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:05,880
wanted to see the trees.
Colleges always do a great job

1896
01:41:05,880 --> 01:41:10,120
of planting the tree.
And so we're walking around and

1897
01:41:10,120 --> 01:41:13,640
we're exploring.
And one of the things that I

1898
01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:17,240
noticed is like all the the
young guys are all kind of

1899
01:41:17,240 --> 01:41:19,640
dressed the same and nobody's
got beards and they've all got

1900
01:41:19,640 --> 01:41:21,800
really similar haircuts.
And I start reading that like

1901
01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:25,360
Russell Nelson has said, or I
guess you know, before him,

1902
01:41:25,360 --> 01:41:28,560
whoever the guy was before him.
But, you know, they said, like,

1903
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:31,240
when you go to BYU, here's the
rules and here's what you, you

1904
01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:34,360
know, and like, and like,
there's an official Mormon, you

1905
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:38,720
know, like guidance from the
president on having a beard.

1906
01:41:38,960 --> 01:41:44,840
And I remember thinking like
this sort of feels like the

1907
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:47,000
authoritarianism that I had
experienced in the Catholic

1908
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:49,400
Church in the beginning.
Like, I really don't think God

1909
01:41:49,400 --> 01:41:52,200
cares if I've got a beard.
I think he's going to care a lot

1910
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:56,360
more about what kind of person
was I and did I really seek to

1911
01:41:56,360 --> 01:42:00,000
build the Kingdom of Zion on
earth and did I perform the

1912
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:03,960
ordinances and did I do my best
to find a valid priesthood

1913
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:07,040
lineage or priesthood authority
lineage?

1914
01:42:07,360 --> 01:42:09,200
And, you know, like these kinds
of things, right?

1915
01:42:09,200 --> 01:42:10,640
Like, that's what God's gonna
care about.

1916
01:42:10,640 --> 01:42:14,160
I don't think God is gonna care
that I've got a beard.

1917
01:42:14,200 --> 01:42:16,480
You know, like, that just
doesn't seem like the thing I'm

1918
01:42:16,480 --> 01:42:17,640
worried about.
I feel like there's some bigger

1919
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:19,800
fish to fry.
And I mean, Porter Rockwell

1920
01:42:19,800 --> 01:42:21,360
wasn't Mormon, you know, like,
really.

1921
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:27,200
But so anyway, so so.
James Sake of the University add

1922
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:31,800
a completely killer beard, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

1923
01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:34,600
You know, like Brigham Young and
I mean all of them back then.

1924
01:42:34,960 --> 01:42:38,000
And so, you know, like it just
felt like they were worried

1925
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:42,680
about the wrong stuff and the
message was was watered down.

1926
01:42:42,920 --> 01:42:48,120
You know, like like when you
read Aww Phelps song, like the

1927
01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:52,200
lyrics to Aww Phelps Tim or or
Eliza Snow him like that is hard

1928
01:42:52,200 --> 01:42:53,720
hitting.
Like if I could hide to Kolob.

1929
01:42:55,200 --> 01:42:57,320
Blow your mind.
Dude there's there's not even

1930
01:42:57,320 --> 01:43:01,400
words to describe how hard
hitting something like that is.

1931
01:43:01,480 --> 01:43:03,760
You like that song?
Oh yeah, for sure.

1932
01:43:03,840 --> 01:43:07,520
OK, there's a dude named Tom
Bennett who is a professional

1933
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:11,920
musician, also a fundamentalist.
He does a killer rendition.

1934
01:43:11,920 --> 01:43:14,200
You can find it on YouTube.
You need to go scope it out.

1935
01:43:14,520 --> 01:43:16,760
I'm sorry, I hate, I'm sorry for
the listeners.

1936
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:19,400
I'm going to take two seconds of
typing to write this down, he

1937
01:43:19,400 --> 01:43:20,520
said.
It's Tom Bennett.

1938
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:25,040
Yep, if you could hide Kolob.
OK.

1939
01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:29,520
All right, sorry to read that.
Shout out to Tom Bennett, but

1940
01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:31,600
yeah, no killer, killer
rendition.

1941
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:33,200
You need to listen to it.
Well, yeah.

1942
01:43:33,200 --> 01:43:37,320
And so like when you when you
read the stuff that, you know,

1943
01:43:37,320 --> 01:43:40,480
William W Phelps and Eliza Snow
they put into these these hymns,

1944
01:43:40,480 --> 01:43:43,120
you're just like, this is
different, man.

1945
01:43:43,120 --> 01:43:47,360
Like this is not Yep, milk toast
Christianity.

1946
01:43:47,360 --> 01:43:50,200
This is a different thing and
that's what made it so

1947
01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:53,080
substantive because so many of
those doctrines that are

1948
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:56,480
differentiators are not just
like contrarian and weird, but

1949
01:43:56,480 --> 01:44:01,080
they make such sense.
And when you go to a church and

1950
01:44:01,080 --> 01:44:04,640
you don't get a lot of that out
of the LDS church, and then you

1951
01:44:04,640 --> 01:44:07,680
also get this authoritarianism.
It just didn't sit right with

1952
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:08,760
me.
And then we had, there was

1953
01:44:08,760 --> 01:44:11,320
really two experiences that kind
of got us and this all happened

1954
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:13,000
in like 4 weeks.
I mean, it happened really

1955
01:44:13,000 --> 01:44:15,240
quickly.
We went there because I didn't

1956
01:44:15,240 --> 01:44:17,480
even know.
The only thing I knew about

1957
01:44:17,480 --> 01:44:21,640
fundamentalists was I knew about
Warren Jeffs and, and, and I

1958
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:24,360
didn't realize that like
fundamentalists dislike that guy

1959
01:44:24,360 --> 01:44:27,760
more than anybody, but I just
thought that fundamentalists

1960
01:44:27,760 --> 01:44:29,360
just, they were all Warren Jeffs
people.

1961
01:44:29,360 --> 01:44:32,000
And so that's not me 'cause that
guy's a creep.

1962
01:44:32,400 --> 01:44:36,920
And so I didn't know anything
about like, you know, the, the,

1963
01:44:37,080 --> 01:44:42,560
the, oh, shoot, what's the,
what's the name, the, the, the,

1964
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:45,200
the, the right, the righteous
branch or.

1965
01:44:45,200 --> 01:44:47,200
The Oh yeah, the.
Nelson Nailers.

1966
01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:49,840
Or the.
Yeah, the AUBI didn't know about

1967
01:44:49,840 --> 01:44:52,480
any of this stuff.
I was just like, you know, I

1968
01:44:52,480 --> 01:44:55,120
mean, the LDS church, that's
where the people that like the

1969
01:44:55,120 --> 01:44:57,560
Book of Mormon go and I like the
Book of Mormon.

1970
01:44:57,560 --> 01:44:59,320
I believe in this.
And so I guess we all believe

1971
01:44:59,320 --> 01:45:00,360
the same thing.
So I'm gonna go there.

1972
01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:02,920
And that was that was kind of
like the extent of my logic.

1973
01:45:03,880 --> 01:45:06,320
It's like, oh, and the message
was watered down.

1974
01:45:06,320 --> 01:45:08,000
Like I said, a lot of these
really hard hitting doctrines

1975
01:45:08,000 --> 01:45:13,400
were not there and there was the
sense of authoritarianism.

1976
01:45:13,400 --> 01:45:14,920
But then there was two things
that really got me.

1977
01:45:14,920 --> 01:45:17,280
One is they said, look, you got
to talk to these missionaries,

1978
01:45:17,440 --> 01:45:18,480
got to talk to these
missionaries.

1979
01:45:19,120 --> 01:45:21,240
So they had sister missionaries
at that ward.

1980
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:25,360
And when I spoke to the sister
missionaries, I didn't let them

1981
01:45:25,360 --> 01:45:27,720
come to my house because I just,
I was a little sceptical.

1982
01:45:28,120 --> 01:45:33,560
And when I spoke to them, they
had almost like these

1983
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:37,880
manufactured personalities.
Like the way they spoke was

1984
01:45:37,880 --> 01:45:42,040
almost like they were reading
out of a script book.

1985
01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:46,680
And and I would ask these
questions that really mattered

1986
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:51,360
to me.
You know, like, for example, I

1987
01:45:51,360 --> 01:45:56,000
had said to you that I thought
that if you, if you sort of

1988
01:45:56,600 --> 01:46:02,320
explore mentally your natural
inclinations, you can infer

1989
01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:07,600
something about the nature of
existence.

1990
01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:09,640
And I think there's value in
that, right?

1991
01:46:10,320 --> 01:46:13,880
But there's a way to do that,
you know, like you wouldn't just

1992
01:46:13,880 --> 01:46:16,600
be like, well, I have sexual
impulses and so I should be

1993
01:46:16,600 --> 01:46:19,920
extremely promiscuous like that.
That's not really a good line of

1994
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:21,840
reasoning.
Like there's a certain way to do

1995
01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:24,160
that.
And so one of the passages that

1996
01:46:24,160 --> 01:46:26,920
I had a lot of trouble with was
I think it's Messiah 316.

1997
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:28,560
The natural man is an enemy of
God.

1998
01:46:29,080 --> 01:46:31,840
And I remember asking the
question, hey, like when I

1999
01:46:31,880 --> 01:46:36,720
really think about the kind of
things that I am naturally sort

2000
01:46:36,720 --> 01:46:40,000
of designed to do, the things
that seem right, if I think

2001
01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:43,920
about the lineage of human
existence, I have a conflict of

2002
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:46,320
understanding with this passage.
Now, since then, I've reconciled

2003
01:46:46,320 --> 01:46:47,800
it and I understand it now it
makes sense to me.

2004
01:46:47,800 --> 01:46:50,200
But at the time I had a conflict
of understanding.

2005
01:46:50,200 --> 01:46:52,280
And I would say, so can you, can
you make this make sense?

2006
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:56,280
I don't think I ever got a good
answer to that or any of the

2007
01:46:56,280 --> 01:46:58,640
questions that I asked.
So that was the first thing.

2008
01:47:00,040 --> 01:47:06,200
The next thing was early on I
read about Adam God and that

2009
01:47:06,200 --> 01:47:09,200
clicked for me too because
because if you read about Adam

2010
01:47:09,200 --> 01:47:14,120
God, see the people get
confused, OK, they think they

2011
01:47:14,120 --> 01:47:19,920
think that Adam God is like wild
and different.

2012
01:47:19,920 --> 01:47:21,800
First of all, a lot of people in
the LDS church have never even

2013
01:47:21,800 --> 01:47:23,400
heard of this.
Like there are so many people in

2014
01:47:23,400 --> 01:47:25,520
the other church that don't even
know this was ever a teaching.

2015
01:47:25,960 --> 01:47:29,320
But the other thing that that
makes the Adam God doctrine so

2016
01:47:29,600 --> 01:47:34,720
insanely powerful is it's not
really that Adam is the father.

2017
01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:35,760
I mean, I'm not saying that's
not true.

2018
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:37,960
What I'm saying is that's not
the hard hitting part.

2019
01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:39,600
That's not the part that gets
you.

2020
01:47:39,600 --> 01:47:43,280
The part that gets you is that
he was the father in an infinite

2021
01:47:43,280 --> 01:47:46,560
succession of eternal fathers
that all did the same thing that

2022
01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:50,400
lead you to the same point in
the process of the eternal

2023
01:47:50,400 --> 01:47:54,720
progression to godhood.
Like if, if Lorenzo Snow's axiom

2024
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:59,240
that as God now is or as as as
God once was, man now is and as

2025
01:47:59,520 --> 01:48:02,920
God now is, man may be.
If that is true, then Adam, God

2026
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:05,680
is necessary.
You have to have that doctrine.

2027
01:48:05,920 --> 01:48:07,520
You can't not have that
doctrine.

2028
01:48:07,840 --> 01:48:10,920
And I found out about that early
on because I was trying to make

2029
01:48:10,920 --> 01:48:13,400
sense of this.
And, and when I found out about

2030
01:48:13,400 --> 01:48:18,400
that, I, that's when I found out
about what's in the teaching at

2031
01:48:18,400 --> 01:48:22,240
the Prophet Joseph Smith about
how the term in the very

2032
01:48:22,240 --> 01:48:28,240
beginning of Genesis is Elohim,
which would mean God's plural.

2033
01:48:28,600 --> 01:48:31,360
And later it's, you know, Yahweh
and Jehovah and Adonai and all,

2034
01:48:31,360 --> 01:48:33,240
I guess Yahweh and Jehovah's the
same thing, but Yahweh and

2035
01:48:33,240 --> 01:48:34,920
Adonai and you know, all these
other names.

2036
01:48:35,720 --> 01:48:39,000
And I thought that was very
interesting.

2037
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:44,160
And so I, I, I asked them, I
said, so, So what does this

2038
01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:47,640
mean?
Like when, when, when the Elohim

2039
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:52,200
says, let us make man an, our
image, who's talking?

2040
01:48:52,200 --> 01:48:56,840
And if and if, if Elohim is
different than Jehovah, then

2041
01:48:56,840 --> 01:49:00,400
who's Jehovah?
And, and the only answer that

2042
01:49:00,400 --> 01:49:02,680
they could ever give me was
Jehovah's Jesus Christ, which

2043
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:04,800
which I never, it never made any
sense to me.

2044
01:49:04,800 --> 01:49:08,840
Now Drew Bryny one time and I
had this conversation with Drew

2045
01:49:08,840 --> 01:49:11,160
Bryny and he tells me that, you
know, you could think about

2046
01:49:11,160 --> 01:49:15,040
Jehovah as an office.
And he said that the early

2047
01:49:15,040 --> 01:49:16,600
brethren, at least some of the
early brethren.

2048
01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:18,440
And I'm probably going to screw
this argument up.

2049
01:49:18,440 --> 01:49:22,320
So Drew, if you hear this, I
apologize for misrepresenting

2050
01:49:22,320 --> 01:49:24,360
your views, but I'm going to do
my very best.

2051
01:49:24,720 --> 01:49:28,320
But they seemed to have
believed, he argued in in the

2052
01:49:28,320 --> 01:49:30,720
early brethren seem to have
believed in this kind of like

2053
01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:33,960
this concept, which could sort
of be visually represented by

2054
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:35,880
the six point star, right?
You get a triangle up and you

2055
01:49:35,880 --> 01:49:41,600
get the triangle down of a
creation Godhead and a salvation

2056
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:44,440
Godhead.
And in this idea of the

2057
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:49,040
Salvatore Godhead, Jesus may
well occupy the office of

2058
01:49:49,040 --> 01:49:51,040
Jehovah, because Jehovah's is an
office.

2059
01:49:51,040 --> 01:49:54,280
It's not a name, it's a title.
And you know, I mean, think

2060
01:49:54,280 --> 01:49:55,840
about it, right?
I mean that, that, that doesn't

2061
01:49:55,840 --> 01:49:59,200
seem that crazy like, and this
sort of lines right up with the

2062
01:49:59,200 --> 01:50:01,480
idea that there's a plurality of
God's been only one that we care

2063
01:50:01,480 --> 01:50:02,720
about.
Because think about your kids.

2064
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:06,080
Your kids call you dad.
They say dad, dad.

2065
01:50:06,360 --> 01:50:08,480
And the guy next door, he's a
dad.

2066
01:50:08,520 --> 01:50:11,520
And the guy over there, he's a
dad, but they don't call him dad

2067
01:50:11,520 --> 01:50:13,360
because they've only got 1 dad
that they're worried about.

2068
01:50:13,960 --> 01:50:17,440
And it's the exact same thing in
this concept, either with the

2069
01:50:17,440 --> 01:50:21,920
name God or the title Jehovah.
And so it didn't make sense to

2070
01:50:21,920 --> 01:50:25,160
me that Moses was praying to
Jesus in the Old Testament.

2071
01:50:25,160 --> 01:50:28,000
I just went, you know, I don't,
I don't think that jives.

2072
01:50:28,280 --> 01:50:33,360
And so I asked some questions to
the missionaries and I never

2073
01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:35,400
told them where I lived.
Keep this in mind, OK?

2074
01:50:36,520 --> 01:50:39,360
I would I would call them and I
would ask these questions and

2075
01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:49,080
they never had a good answer.
Well, one day I come home and I

2076
01:50:49,080 --> 01:50:55,040
find on my doorstep a list of
the names of God in the Bible.

2077
01:50:55,040 --> 01:50:57,960
And it wasn't what they meant.
It was literally just a list.

2078
01:50:58,280 --> 01:51:01,600
So it was, it was like fairly
intellectually bereft.

2079
01:51:01,600 --> 01:51:02,800
There wasn't really anything
there.

2080
01:51:02,800 --> 01:51:04,280
It was just a list.
I could have gone through the

2081
01:51:04,280 --> 01:51:07,000
Bible and made a list myself,
but just a list.

2082
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:11,920
And I went, how did this get
here?

2083
01:51:13,160 --> 01:51:16,320
And my wife goes, I bet you it
was the missionaries.

2084
01:51:16,560 --> 01:51:18,040
And I'm like, you got to be
kidding me, right?

2085
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:21,360
Like, they went and found out
where I lived and then dropped a

2086
01:51:21,360 --> 01:51:23,360
list of biblical names, like,
there's no way.

2087
01:51:23,760 --> 01:51:26,000
And so I called him and I said,
did you come to my house?

2088
01:51:27,080 --> 01:51:30,080
And they were like, yeah.
What?

2089
01:51:30,360 --> 01:51:33,560
Like who gave you permission to
do that?

2090
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:36,880
Oh, well, you know, we got, we
found out where you lived from

2091
01:51:36,880 --> 01:51:38,360
one of the members and all this
stuff.

2092
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:42,960
And I told him, I said, with all
due respect, you knew that I had

2093
01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:44,640
never invited you to your house,
my house.

2094
01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:47,240
And that was for a reason.
It was because I was keeping

2095
01:51:47,240 --> 01:51:49,640
distance until I was more
comfortable with this.

2096
01:51:50,080 --> 01:51:52,320
And I feel like you knew that.
And there was a reason you

2097
01:51:52,320 --> 01:51:54,480
didn't call and say, hey, can I
come over?

2098
01:51:54,600 --> 01:51:58,240
You just did it on the sly,
which tells me that you were

2099
01:51:58,240 --> 01:51:59,840
afraid to have that
conversation.

2100
01:51:59,840 --> 01:52:02,200
And so you're, you're not only
not welcome to come back, you're

2101
01:52:02,200 --> 01:52:03,520
also not welcome to call me
anymore.

2102
01:52:04,000 --> 01:52:06,280
And that was it.
We just never went to the LDS

2103
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:10,800
church again.
Wow, what?

2104
01:52:10,800 --> 01:52:13,760
What'd you guys do next?
Right, because, Because now it

2105
01:52:13,760 --> 01:52:17,200
must feel like you cut off the
only Ave. to Mormonism, right?

2106
01:52:17,560 --> 01:52:24,760
So, so I had a hunch that there
was more to it because of Drew

2107
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:27,800
Bryony's book.
So I still didn't know anything

2108
01:52:27,800 --> 01:52:32,280
about about I knew about the
Adam God teachings because I'd

2109
01:52:32,280 --> 01:52:34,920
read Adam God teachings by Drew
Briny.

2110
01:52:34,920 --> 01:52:37,360
And if you don't own that book
and you're a Mormon

2111
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:39,440
fundamentalist, or I should say
an OG Mormon, I don't

2112
01:52:39,440 --> 01:52:42,680
necessarily like term
fundamentalist, you should read

2113
01:52:42,680 --> 01:52:45,600
that book.
And if you haven't, and if you

2114
01:52:45,600 --> 01:52:47,120
have read it, you should
probably just read it again

2115
01:52:47,120 --> 01:52:48,080
because it will make you
smarter.

2116
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:51,120
But so Drew Briny had that book
and I had read that book.

2117
01:52:51,120 --> 01:52:55,560
And so I reached out to Drew.
I found his contact information

2118
01:52:55,560 --> 01:52:57,360
some kind of way.
I don't even remember how I did

2119
01:52:57,360 --> 01:53:01,080
it, but I did.
And I said, hey, man, like, how

2120
01:53:01,080 --> 01:53:03,800
do I find people that believe
this kind of thing?

2121
01:53:05,000 --> 01:53:09,200
And he says, well, you know, oh,
you know, you know what?

2122
01:53:09,200 --> 01:53:10,400
It wasn't Drew.
I'm sorry.

2123
01:53:10,400 --> 01:53:13,920
It was.
It was Kevin Kraut 'cause I had

2124
01:53:13,920 --> 01:53:18,080
read Audit Kraut's books, called
Pioneer Press, got a hold of

2125
01:53:18,080 --> 01:53:20,160
Kevin.
Kevin and I started to form a

2126
01:53:20,160 --> 01:53:22,000
friendship.
I visited him in Utah when I

2127
01:53:22,000 --> 01:53:23,320
went to go visit my wife's
parents.

2128
01:53:23,640 --> 01:53:26,280
Then I read Drew Bynie's book.
And then I said, hey, Kevin, do

2129
01:53:26,280 --> 01:53:27,760
you know Drew?
And he says, yeah, here's his

2130
01:53:27,760 --> 01:53:29,480
contact information.
And then he gave it to me.

2131
01:53:29,800 --> 01:53:32,960
So I reached out to Drew.
That was when I got introduced

2132
01:53:32,960 --> 01:53:36,760
to Sean Anderson, Marona Jessup,
Michael Nass.

2133
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:38,840
These guys are some of my best
friends now.

2134
01:53:38,840 --> 01:53:41,400
I mean, I just, I really love
all those guys.

2135
01:53:41,560 --> 01:53:45,160
But at the time, that was when I
started to learn like, oh,

2136
01:53:45,160 --> 01:53:47,720
there's other people in
Mormonism.

2137
01:53:47,960 --> 01:53:51,080
And by the way, if if you've
never seen this before, I

2138
01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:53,880
encourage all of the people that
are listening to go on Wikipedia

2139
01:53:53,880 --> 01:53:57,200
and look up branches of the
Restoration.

2140
01:53:57,200 --> 01:53:58,840
I mean, branches of Mormonism or
something.

2141
01:53:59,160 --> 01:54:02,440
There's someone that made a
graphic of all of the different

2142
01:54:02,440 --> 01:54:04,600
splits in the history of
Mormonism.

2143
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:08,560
And there are a lot of groups
and they're not necessarily all

2144
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:10,440
fundamentalists.
Some of them are because like

2145
01:54:10,440 --> 01:54:13,520
they come out of that sort of
branch that Lauren, you know, of

2146
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:15,680
the work and Lauren Wooley and
all that kind of thing.

2147
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:17,400
But there's all kinds of other
ones.

2148
01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:22,000
And so I encourage anybody to go
on Wikipedia and go find that

2149
01:54:22,240 --> 01:54:25,520
because it is an absolute, the
fascinating depiction of how

2150
01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:27,400
things have split off.
And I didn't understand that at

2151
01:54:27,400 --> 01:54:29,880
the time.
I understood it very quickly

2152
01:54:29,880 --> 01:54:34,920
once I started talking to Sean
and to Moroni and to Michael.

2153
01:54:35,520 --> 01:54:38,120
And then that's when I found out
that, oh, there's all these

2154
01:54:38,120 --> 01:54:41,960
groups.
There's the AUB and there's the,

2155
01:54:42,280 --> 01:54:45,760
you know, the Peterson people
and there's the there's the, the

2156
01:54:45,760 --> 01:54:49,960
the Nielsen Nailers and there's
the Kingston's and the Le Barons

2157
01:54:49,960 --> 01:54:52,280
and there's all these people and
they all got a nickname.

2158
01:54:52,720 --> 01:54:54,440
And we must love nicknames in
this world, right?

2159
01:54:54,440 --> 01:54:58,480
But so then I figured, OK, well,
one of these people's got to be

2160
01:54:58,480 --> 01:55:01,400
on to something.
And then that's when I found out

2161
01:55:01,400 --> 01:55:05,800
that actually there's this
strain of Mormonism that is full

2162
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:07,800
of people that don't really
regard themselves as being

2163
01:55:07,800 --> 01:55:09,360
members of any group and they're
independent.

2164
01:55:10,000 --> 01:55:14,280
And at that point, that was kind
of when I was like, OK, this is

2165
01:55:14,520 --> 01:55:19,520
this is me.
Because so our family is is is

2166
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:24,880
baptized in and goes to church
with when we're near a church in

2167
01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:28,200
Brownsville, TX, we're not near
one, but we hold the meetings at

2168
01:55:28,360 --> 01:55:32,560
at home here.
But when we're near a church, we

2169
01:55:32,560 --> 01:55:36,200
go to a church that belongs to
the Nielsen Nailers, the people

2170
01:55:36,200 --> 01:55:38,200
you'd call the Nielsen Nailers,
the Church of Jesus Christ, the

2171
01:55:38,200 --> 01:55:40,800
Latter Day Saints, and the.
Kingdom of God, and that's

2172
01:55:41,600 --> 01:55:43,680
great.
Great guy, great guy.

2173
01:55:44,520 --> 01:55:48,760
One of my one of my very
favorite people and, and, and

2174
01:55:48,760 --> 01:55:53,640
some just absolute like Titans
of gospel understanding in that

2175
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:55,920
world.
You know, Jeff Wall is a guy

2176
01:55:55,920 --> 01:55:58,240
that if you ever have the
ability to get on your podcast,

2177
01:55:58,240 --> 01:56:00,200
you should.
Because first of all, if there's

2178
01:56:00,200 --> 01:56:03,200
anyone that I have ever in my
life, I don't have, so I don't

2179
01:56:03,200 --> 01:56:05,000
have any brothers.
If there's anyone I have ever

2180
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:07,200
felt like was a brother to me,
it would be Jeff Wall.

2181
01:56:07,200 --> 01:56:11,680
But also I think I've learned
more from that guy than him and

2182
01:56:11,680 --> 01:56:16,400
Michael Ness than probably any
two people that I have spent

2183
01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:18,280
time around.
Taylor Smith is also really

2184
01:56:18,280 --> 01:56:20,720
smart, you know, and, and I
mean, there's just some guys

2185
01:56:20,720 --> 01:56:24,000
that are in that orbit that are
just just giants in terms.

2186
01:56:24,000 --> 01:56:28,680
Of their understanding.
And, and so I, we are baptized

2187
01:56:29,440 --> 01:56:32,560
by the members of that Riesthood
group.

2188
01:56:34,120 --> 01:56:38,040
But I, but I actually, I differ
from probably some of the other

2189
01:56:38,040 --> 01:56:44,840
members of that group in that I
regard myself as independent.

2190
01:56:45,720 --> 01:56:48,000
I regard my because the way that
I think about it is like this.

2191
01:56:48,520 --> 01:56:51,360
I accept their claims to
priesthood authority.

2192
01:56:52,320 --> 01:56:55,520
I think that they are doing the
work to build the Kingdom of

2193
01:56:55,520 --> 01:56:58,920
Zion in a righteous way.
I think that they are effective

2194
01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:01,240
in that work.
I think that they are good

2195
01:57:01,240 --> 01:57:03,960
people.
I think that they have kept many

2196
01:57:03,960 --> 01:57:05,800
of the most important traditions
alive.

2197
01:57:06,360 --> 01:57:10,000
I think that it's the right
place for us to go to church and

2198
01:57:10,000 --> 01:57:12,400
to meet and to develop
connections and to receive the

2199
01:57:12,400 --> 01:57:14,400
ordinances and all of those
kinds of things.

2200
01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:18,920
But if one day you know the guy
that's in charge or they don't

2201
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:20,680
really have a specific guy
that's in charge, they have a

2202
01:57:20,680 --> 01:57:24,480
council that presides.
But if the council starts doing

2203
01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:27,880
weird stuff, I'm bye, bye.
I don't, I don't, I am not

2204
01:57:27,880 --> 01:57:30,720
beholden to I'm not, I'm not on
a team here, right?

2205
01:57:30,720 --> 01:57:34,240
I'm not playing a team sport.
I am, I am a Mormon and I am

2206
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:35,960
beholden to the content of the
scriptures.

2207
01:57:36,840 --> 01:57:40,880
And so, so in some way, though
we are that we do go to church

2208
01:57:40,880 --> 01:57:44,080
with them.
I regard myself as, and my

2209
01:57:44,080 --> 01:57:50,720
family as independent Mormons.
And once I had learned what that

2210
01:57:50,720 --> 01:57:53,880
was and that that existed, that
was kind of when it was just

2211
01:57:53,880 --> 01:57:57,000
easy because now the only thing
I got to worry about is the

2212
01:57:57,000 --> 01:57:58,880
content of the scriptures, man,
Like what?

2213
01:57:58,880 --> 01:58:01,360
What did the scriptures say?
What did Joseph Smith tell us in

2214
01:58:01,360 --> 01:58:02,920
the teachings, the Prophet
Joseph Smith?

2215
01:58:03,560 --> 01:58:05,720
And then and then the secondary
question is what can I find in

2216
01:58:05,720 --> 01:58:07,840
the other inspired books that I
had mentioned all the way back

2217
01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:08,960
in the beginning of this
interview?

2218
01:58:09,360 --> 01:58:13,480
That tells me more about the
eternal truths about which I

2219
01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:14,840
desire to know something, you
know.

2220
01:58:15,120 --> 01:58:19,040
Sure.
So all through this process, did

2221
01:58:19,040 --> 01:58:22,640
your wife, is she worried about
like plural marriage?

2222
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:25,160
Is she worried about all this
priesthood stuff?

2223
01:58:25,160 --> 01:58:29,600
Is there anything there that
that's 'cause so often some of

2224
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:32,320
this can actually tear families
apart, right?

2225
01:58:32,680 --> 01:58:35,600
Yeah.
And so how are you broaching

2226
01:58:35,600 --> 01:58:39,840
those subjects?
So her and I have had a very

2227
01:58:39,840 --> 01:58:45,920
like open dialogue based
relationship since we first met.

2228
01:58:46,320 --> 01:58:50,960
And as you can probably tell any
of your listeners from 2 hours

2229
01:58:50,960 --> 01:58:53,720
of me talking, I don't got much
of A filter and I'm pretty blunt

2230
01:58:53,720 --> 01:58:57,040
when it comes to most things.
And so for a long time before

2231
01:58:57,040 --> 01:59:00,040
then, we had talked about all
kinds of hot button moral

2232
01:59:00,040 --> 01:59:03,920
issues, to include the idea that
I don't think that a man having

2233
01:59:03,920 --> 01:59:06,960
more than one wife is morally
wrong at all.

2234
01:59:07,240 --> 01:59:08,960
Right.
And I think that the big problem

2235
01:59:08,960 --> 01:59:12,200
is, yeah, I think the reason
this tears families apart is

2236
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:15,040
there's, there's a template that
I've seen, particularly among

2237
01:59:15,040 --> 01:59:21,240
converts, where guys will
convert to fundamentalism and

2238
01:59:21,480 --> 01:59:24,080
then very quickly they get a
revelation about, you know, oh,

2239
01:59:24,080 --> 01:59:28,400
I'm supposed to marry this,
which is, which is always, you

2240
01:59:28,400 --> 01:59:30,320
know, that's always a little
suspect to me.

2241
01:59:30,480 --> 01:59:32,000
Hold on.
I'm going to give a public

2242
01:59:32,000 --> 01:59:34,960
service announcement right here.
If your first significant

2243
01:59:34,960 --> 01:59:38,560
revelation in plural and and
fundamentalism is I'm going to

2244
01:59:38,560 --> 01:59:40,000
be a polygamist.
Yeah.

2245
01:59:40,560 --> 01:59:42,120
You may want to check that.
Yeah, you might.

2246
01:59:42,120 --> 01:59:44,600
You might.
You should probably, you might

2247
01:59:44,600 --> 01:59:47,280
wonder if that revelation came
from somewhere other than God,

2248
01:59:47,640 --> 01:59:50,480
right?
But yeah, somewhere, somewhere

2249
01:59:52,000 --> 01:59:53,200
above your knee, but below your
waist.

2250
01:59:53,200 --> 01:59:59,040
So anyway, so I would say that
there's this pattern that I've

2251
01:59:59,040 --> 02:00:02,600
seen where that happens, and I
think that's what freaks women

2252
02:00:02,600 --> 02:00:05,240
out.
But but we experienced, my wife

2253
02:00:05,240 --> 02:00:11,920
and I experienced this very
obvious cosmic magnetism.

2254
02:00:12,240 --> 02:00:15,320
That brought the two of us
together like undeniable like it

2255
02:00:15,320 --> 02:00:27,360
would have been, it would have
been like it it would have been

2256
02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:32,240
potentially catastrophic for us
to have ignored those signs and

2257
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:37,560
to have opposed the current or
the cosmic magnetism, to use

2258
02:00:37,560 --> 02:00:39,040
that term that was bringing us
together.

2259
02:00:39,760 --> 02:00:43,960
And I think that we're both
smart enough to know that if

2260
02:00:43,960 --> 02:00:48,640
that ever happened again, that
it's our obligation to enter the

2261
02:00:48,640 --> 02:00:52,000
principle.
But it doesn't mean that like to

2262
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:55,640
me, that's that's pretty low on
my on my priority list because

2263
02:00:55,640 --> 02:00:57,840
I'm a guy.
And I mean, come on, this is

2264
02:00:57,840 --> 02:01:00,280
like one of the messiest
commandments because like, what

2265
02:01:00,280 --> 02:01:04,960
other commandment are you given
that also happens to line up

2266
02:01:04,960 --> 02:01:10,560
perfectly with this ancient
impulse that is probably only

2267
02:01:11,720 --> 02:01:15,040
less strong than the desire to
breathe and eat and drink water

2268
02:01:15,800 --> 02:01:18,040
that, you know, like is hard to
control already.

2269
02:01:18,040 --> 02:01:20,360
Like what other commandment
lines up perfectly with an

2270
02:01:20,360 --> 02:01:22,640
impulse like that, like with
with a drive like that,

2271
02:01:22,920 --> 02:01:27,240
especially as a guy.
And so my thought process is I,

2272
02:01:28,040 --> 02:01:32,000
I know, I know what it feels
like to be brought together with

2273
02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:34,400
somebody.
And if that happens again, I

2274
02:01:34,400 --> 02:01:42,160
will know it, especially now
that I am that I understand the

2275
02:01:42,160 --> 02:01:45,200
way that not, I don't want to
say like I understand fully, but

2276
02:01:45,200 --> 02:01:47,800
that I have a much better idea
of the way that God talks to you

2277
02:01:47,800 --> 02:01:50,480
and leads together.
And I think that my wife, my

2278
02:01:50,480 --> 02:01:52,560
wife knows that too.
Like she knows that there's, you

2279
02:01:52,560 --> 02:01:55,760
know, there's nothing to
mistrust.

2280
02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:58,920
This isn't like I'm going to go,
man, I got to be a polygamist

2281
02:01:58,920 --> 02:02:01,720
now, you know, because that's
just not, that's not where my

2282
02:02:01,720 --> 02:02:03,560
mind state is.
And like I said, if I'm

2283
02:02:03,560 --> 02:02:04,840
commanded to do it, I'm doing
it.

2284
02:02:05,000 --> 02:02:08,080
But I know what that feels like
to be commanded to be with

2285
02:02:08,080 --> 02:02:11,960
somebody, because I did it once,
and if that happens again, I'll

2286
02:02:11,960 --> 02:02:14,400
know it.
But to date, that ain't

2287
02:02:14,400 --> 02:02:16,040
happening.
And I'm sure that if it happens

2288
02:02:16,040 --> 02:02:18,960
again, she'll know it too.
Yeah, Yep.

2289
02:02:19,120 --> 02:02:22,320
No, she will.
At least that's the way it was

2290
02:02:22,320 --> 02:02:24,680
in my circumstance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2291
02:02:24,680 --> 02:02:26,240
OK, all right.
No, that's good.

2292
02:02:28,000 --> 02:02:31,840
So as you what, what are the
kids thinking about at this

2293
02:02:31,840 --> 02:02:32,360
point?
Right.

2294
02:02:32,360 --> 02:02:36,920
How old are your kids?
So OK so my oldest is 15 then my

2295
02:02:36,920 --> 02:02:40,160
next one is five.
Sorry, 9 Then I have a 5 year

2296
02:02:40,160 --> 02:02:42,920
old.
I have like A1 almost 2 year old

2297
02:02:42,920 --> 02:02:44,800
and then I've got a newborn
who's about four months old.

2298
02:02:45,040 --> 02:02:47,480
So you're spanning the gamut.
Yeah, dude.

2299
02:02:47,480 --> 02:02:51,960
And I'm like 3335, I'm thinking
I'm 34, it's 2024, I'm 34.

2300
02:02:51,960 --> 02:02:55,560
So that means that probably got
another five in there.

2301
02:02:55,960 --> 02:02:59,000
And so eventually they'll
probably span an even bigger

2302
02:02:59,080 --> 02:03:01,720
range.
But the oldest two are the two

2303
02:03:01,720 --> 02:03:03,760
that understand enough to really
have an opinion.

2304
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:07,560
And man, they make me feel like
I'm a slothful servant.

2305
02:03:07,560 --> 02:03:10,160
Like they, these kids, just like
they just eat this up.

2306
02:03:10,160 --> 02:03:14,200
They, they, they, you know,
they, they, they, they know

2307
02:03:14,200 --> 02:03:16,640
like, I don't know, half the
hymn book at this point.

2308
02:03:16,640 --> 02:03:19,400
By heart I mean in this this,
this whole journey only started

2309
02:03:19,400 --> 02:03:21,840
two years ago where we actually
had read the Book of Mormon and

2310
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:24,440
began any of this.
It accelerates quickly.

2311
02:03:24,680 --> 02:03:26,600
It does, yeah.
So they, they, they both

2312
02:03:26,600 --> 02:03:28,400
probably know half the hymn book
by heart.

2313
02:03:28,400 --> 02:03:30,520
They, they, they've both read
the Book of Mormon cover to

2314
02:03:30,520 --> 02:03:32,600
cover.
They do Book of Mormon study

2315
02:03:32,600 --> 02:03:35,280
every single day or Bible study
every single day.

2316
02:03:35,920 --> 02:03:38,800
They might.
My 9 year old in particular, oh

2317
02:03:39,280 --> 02:03:42,480
man, she just, you want to talk
about being like a proud parent?

2318
02:03:42,480 --> 02:03:47,960
So we have a meeting every
Sunday at our house.

2319
02:03:48,160 --> 02:03:50,200
OK.
And so we'll open with a prayer

2320
02:03:50,200 --> 02:03:52,720
and we'll do a song.
I'm not much of a singer, so I

2321
02:03:52,720 --> 02:03:55,080
kind of just what I do is I put
one on the television like the,

2322
02:03:55,080 --> 02:03:57,400
you know, let's say like the
Tabernacle Choir or something.

2323
02:03:57,400 --> 02:03:59,240
And then my kids really like to
sing along with it.

2324
02:03:59,240 --> 02:04:02,480
And generally I'm spending more
time like reading and analyzing

2325
02:04:02,480 --> 02:04:04,720
the contents of the lyrics for
the, you know, sort of message

2326
02:04:04,720 --> 02:04:09,040
inside.
Then we'll do the sacrament and

2327
02:04:09,480 --> 02:04:13,240
then we have like a discussion
and then we'll close the prayer.

2328
02:04:13,920 --> 02:04:18,840
And when we do that, my 9 year
old man, you want to talk about

2329
02:04:18,840 --> 02:04:24,720
some hard hitting questions?
This kid just, I have to write

2330
02:04:24,720 --> 02:04:27,200
her stuff down because I'm like,
we can't talk about this in the

2331
02:04:27,200 --> 02:04:28,480
amount of time that I have right
now.

2332
02:04:28,480 --> 02:04:30,840
Like I can write a book on this
question.

2333
02:04:30,840 --> 02:04:34,240
Like she has just got a knack
for that man.

2334
02:04:34,240 --> 02:04:39,800
Like she just asks these
questions that I, I, I can't

2335
02:04:39,800 --> 02:04:43,200
even begin to explain it to you.
Like one time she says to me,

2336
02:04:43,200 --> 02:04:44,240
this coming from a nine year
old.

2337
02:04:44,800 --> 02:04:52,800
So if Adam is the heavenly
Father, then who was Adam

2338
02:04:52,800 --> 02:04:56,600
praying to?
And I was like, nice, that's a

2339
02:04:56,600 --> 02:04:59,400
good question.
And you know, like that kind of

2340
02:04:59,400 --> 02:05:01,440
stuff.
And and she's 9 dude.

2341
02:05:01,720 --> 02:05:03,960
Like so so that's been really
cool.

2342
02:05:03,960 --> 02:05:09,560
And then my older one, she is
like I said, she's, she's, she,

2343
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:12,920
she is just all in.
So we went from no religion to

2344
02:05:12,920 --> 02:05:16,400
like, she's, you know, more of a
practicing Mormon than I am.

2345
02:05:16,400 --> 02:05:18,120
Like she never forgets her
prayers.

2346
02:05:18,120 --> 02:05:22,440
And she, the way she dresses,
like she, she chooses this is by

2347
02:05:22,440 --> 02:05:25,720
choice.
This, this, this girl wears long

2348
02:05:26,120 --> 02:05:29,760
dresses that are very modest all
the time.

2349
02:05:30,080 --> 02:05:33,480
And they're, they're not like,
they're not like FLDS, like

2350
02:05:33,480 --> 02:05:35,000
Prairie dress types or anything
like that.

2351
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:39,520
But she just has a very modest
way of dress that she is very

2352
02:05:39,520 --> 02:05:41,080
like religiously motivated to
keep.

2353
02:05:42,000 --> 02:05:43,040
You know, I, I can't even get
her.

2354
02:05:43,040 --> 02:05:44,720
We live near the beach 25
minutes away.

2355
02:05:44,720 --> 02:05:47,680
And she just like can't figure
out how to go because she

2356
02:05:47,680 --> 02:05:49,160
doesn't have like a dress she
can swim in.

2357
02:05:49,160 --> 02:05:51,600
So she's just always
uncomfortable if she had goes to

2358
02:05:51,600 --> 02:05:54,400
the beach.
She's so she's very modest in

2359
02:05:54,400 --> 02:05:57,960
that way.
She does, like I said, she's the

2360
02:05:57,960 --> 02:06:01,440
one that really, really knows
all the hymns and practices them

2361
02:06:01,440 --> 02:06:04,520
and learns to sing them.
She plays the hymns just on the

2362
02:06:04,520 --> 02:06:07,000
television when she's doing
things.

2363
02:06:08,280 --> 02:06:12,440
She, she's read the Book of
Mormon I maybe even twice for

2364
02:06:12,440 --> 02:06:14,560
the Bible.
I mean, she's, she's really,

2365
02:06:14,720 --> 02:06:18,320
really like enthusiastic.
And it's been this way for a

2366
02:06:18,320 --> 02:06:19,840
while now.
So I think it's got some staying

2367
02:06:19,840 --> 02:06:21,880
power 'cause if you know
anything about teenagers, it's

2368
02:06:22,360 --> 02:06:25,680
that a lot of times they've got
enthusiasm for about like 20

2369
02:06:25,680 --> 02:06:28,960
minutes and then it goes away
and hers has really stayed.

2370
02:06:28,960 --> 02:06:31,600
So those two are the ones that
are old enough to have an

2371
02:06:31,600 --> 02:06:34,040
opinion on it.
And I mean, they are as bought

2372
02:06:34,040 --> 02:06:36,480
in as anybody.
My ones that are a little

2373
02:06:36,480 --> 02:06:39,680
younger.
No, they're.

2374
02:06:39,680 --> 02:06:41,560
They're along for the ride
still, right?

2375
02:06:41,600 --> 02:06:43,760
I mean, yeah, no, dude, that's
awesome.

2376
02:06:45,040 --> 02:06:50,400
All right, so, so today that
leads you to Brownsville, TX,

2377
02:06:50,720 --> 02:06:53,080
and you're just out there doing
your thing.

2378
02:06:53,680 --> 02:06:59,840
Yep, basically.
So we moved to Missouri because

2379
02:06:59,840 --> 02:07:01,360
like I said, there's a lot of
really good stuff that's going

2380
02:07:01,360 --> 02:07:04,480
on in Missouri and I had thought
that it was the place that we

2381
02:07:04,480 --> 02:07:08,280
were supposed to be.
And when we landed there, just

2382
02:07:08,680 --> 02:07:10,560
I, I, I'm not even gonna get in
all the details.

2383
02:07:10,560 --> 02:07:13,400
One thing after another after
another, like really big

2384
02:07:13,400 --> 02:07:17,200
catastrophic, disorderly things
happened to our family over and

2385
02:07:17,200 --> 02:07:20,080
over and we.
Anything to do with the

2386
02:07:20,120 --> 02:07:27,680
religion?
No, not so much the religion as

2387
02:07:27,680 --> 02:07:32,160
much as just things in life that
made it extremely difficult to

2388
02:07:32,160 --> 02:07:35,680
get settled.
So to any of your listeners that

2389
02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:37,640
don't know me, which would
probably be all of them, if you,

2390
02:07:37,680 --> 02:07:39,880
if you, if you did know me
personally, one of the things

2391
02:07:39,880 --> 02:07:43,240
that you would know is that my
wife and I have a very orderly,

2392
02:07:43,640 --> 02:07:49,760
very methodical, very calculated
way of existing in the world

2393
02:07:52,400 --> 02:07:54,040
coming to our house.
It's always very clean.

2394
02:07:54,040 --> 02:07:56,480
Things are in a good spot.
In fact, I actually have a, a

2395
02:07:56,720 --> 02:08:03,200
wooden plaque when you walk into
my door and it says mine house

2396
02:08:03,200 --> 02:08:05,200
is a House of order, not a House
of confusion.

2397
02:08:06,000 --> 02:08:08,320
And, and so that, I mean, that's
the way that we are.

2398
02:08:08,320 --> 02:08:09,800
And it's always been the way
that we've been.

2399
02:08:10,520 --> 02:08:17,600
We went to Missouri.
Everything, everything became a

2400
02:08:17,600 --> 02:08:23,880
a jumbled and persistent massive
disorganized chaos.

2401
02:08:24,200 --> 02:08:27,200
And it didn't relent.
And it happened for nine

2402
02:08:27,200 --> 02:08:32,960
straight months.
And it was, it was the, it got

2403
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:36,520
to the point where so at first
my interpretation was, wow, the

2404
02:08:36,520 --> 02:08:37,840
adversary really doesn't want us
here.

2405
02:08:37,840 --> 02:08:39,920
So like, we're gonna, we're
gonna fight hard to do some good

2406
02:08:39,920 --> 02:08:43,880
work.
But then we got, we got baptized

2407
02:08:43,880 --> 02:08:45,480
when we first landed in
Missouri.

2408
02:08:45,840 --> 02:08:47,560
So this is, I don't know, about
a year and a half ago or

2409
02:08:47,560 --> 02:08:51,360
something.
And you know, given the gift of

2410
02:08:51,360 --> 02:08:54,480
the Holy Ghost and I started to
get this impression that, hey,

2411
02:08:54,480 --> 02:08:56,080
wait a minute.
I don't know if this is the

2412
02:08:56,080 --> 02:08:57,800
adversary.
I think maybe we're fighting

2413
02:08:57,800 --> 02:09:00,200
against the plan for us like
this, this something doesn't

2414
02:09:00,200 --> 02:09:02,560
feel right about this.
And my wife started to get the

2415
02:09:02,560 --> 02:09:06,480
same impression and we started
to pray on it and praying more

2416
02:09:06,480 --> 02:09:08,520
and praying more and praying
more and asking God for an

2417
02:09:08,520 --> 02:09:11,840
answer.
And eventually we got an answer

2418
02:09:11,840 --> 02:09:14,360
in the form of an experience
that we both had.

2419
02:09:14,560 --> 02:09:16,400
It was, it wasn't like a vision
or something.

2420
02:09:16,400 --> 02:09:19,360
It was just like a regular life
experience, but it was almost

2421
02:09:19,360 --> 02:09:23,400
like the life experience was
orchestrated in a way.

2422
02:09:23,400 --> 02:09:27,280
You know, I've ever seen a movie
where like something that

2423
02:09:27,280 --> 02:09:30,720
happens to the main character is
very obviously supposed to tell

2424
02:09:30,720 --> 02:09:33,320
the main character something
about like his existence.

2425
02:09:33,600 --> 02:09:36,040
You know, like, like, like,
like, like the like the setting,

2426
02:09:36,040 --> 02:09:38,520
like the, the thing that
happened is supposed to be the

2427
02:09:38,520 --> 02:09:39,560
message.
Yep.

2428
02:09:39,560 --> 02:09:42,960
Well, that's what happened.
We had one of those and it was

2429
02:09:42,960 --> 02:09:50,320
very obvious that the experience
was the message and it came at

2430
02:09:50,320 --> 02:09:53,920
the climax of us just begging
for an answer.

2431
02:09:54,560 --> 02:09:56,360
And at that point we said, look,
we got to get out of here.

2432
02:09:56,360 --> 02:09:58,840
And I'm not one of these
fundamentalists that thinks that

2433
02:09:59,280 --> 02:10:02,680
Missouri is cursed in the yellow
dog prophecy and all these kinds

2434
02:10:02,680 --> 02:10:06,000
of things.
I, I just, for some reason, Lord

2435
02:10:06,000 --> 02:10:07,520
didn't want us in Missouri at
that time.

2436
02:10:08,360 --> 02:10:11,000
And ever since we left and came
here, and it's kind of a long

2437
02:10:11,000 --> 02:10:13,600
story how we wound up here.
But ever since we came here,

2438
02:10:14,240 --> 02:10:17,320
things have gone back to their
orderly and methodical ways.

2439
02:10:17,320 --> 02:10:26,320
And things are, you know, I, I,
I am more, I'm more convicted in

2440
02:10:26,320 --> 02:10:28,120
the work that I have to do than
I have ever been.

2441
02:10:28,120 --> 02:10:29,760
And I think all of my family
members ever.

2442
02:10:30,600 --> 02:10:35,880
Yeah, I was gonna say, sometimes
we look at places we land that

2443
02:10:35,880 --> 02:10:39,880
we don't stay at for a long time
as a mistake, right?

2444
02:10:40,800 --> 02:10:42,440
I don't tend to look at it that
way.

2445
02:10:42,440 --> 02:10:45,840
Normally you're supposed to get
something there and then you're

2446
02:10:45,840 --> 02:10:48,040
moving on, right?
In your case, So probably some

2447
02:10:48,040 --> 02:10:50,880
ordinances, right?
You show up, you get baptized,

2448
02:10:51,640 --> 02:10:55,520
you you get a flavor for the
culture a little bit and maybe

2449
02:10:55,520 --> 02:11:00,160
some hard hitting doctrine.
And and then it's almost, and

2450
02:11:00,160 --> 02:11:01,760
I'm not going to speak for you,
right?

2451
02:11:01,760 --> 02:11:03,760
I mean, you can do that.
You can go get that from God.

2452
02:11:03,760 --> 02:11:06,640
But I can imagine that maybe it
was just like, OK, now go out in

2453
02:11:06,640 --> 02:11:09,000
the mission field.
Well, and, and it's great by

2454
02:11:09,000 --> 02:11:12,080
being there, you know, I met
Michael Ness and I met Sean

2455
02:11:12,080 --> 02:11:15,720
Anderson and Jeff Wall and I met
Al Williams and, and I, well,

2456
02:11:15,720 --> 02:11:18,280
you and I met and like, I mean,
it's just like I, like, I made

2457
02:11:18,280 --> 02:11:22,440
so many important personal
connections that the time spent

2458
02:11:22,440 --> 02:11:26,360
there was absolutely valuable.
But I just wasn't supposed to

2459
02:11:26,360 --> 02:11:27,840
stay there.
My family wasn't supposed to

2460
02:11:27,880 --> 02:11:30,640
stay, you know, and it got to
the point where even even my

2461
02:11:30,640 --> 02:11:32,800
oldest daughter, OK, who had
made all these friends.

2462
02:11:32,800 --> 02:11:38,360
And so she's, she's really, you
know, enjoying her time in

2463
02:11:38,360 --> 02:11:40,440
Missouri and she's got friends
and stuff and she, she doesn't

2464
02:11:40,440 --> 02:11:44,440
want to leave her friends even
she's going Dad, I think we got

2465
02:11:44,440 --> 02:11:47,080
to get out of here.
Like it was, I mean, everybody

2466
02:11:47,080 --> 02:11:50,160
just, it was just obvious.
Sure.

2467
02:11:50,560 --> 02:11:56,600
And and look, again, these sorts
of things are extremely

2468
02:11:56,600 --> 02:11:58,960
personal.
You know, I, I would imagine

2469
02:11:58,960 --> 02:12:02,000
that before long you'll make an
impact out there in Texas too,

2470
02:12:02,240 --> 02:12:05,560
right.
And, and I've always told people

2471
02:12:05,560 --> 02:12:09,040
when, when people found out I
was moving to Missouri, they,

2472
02:12:09,040 --> 02:12:13,760
they said, well, where, you
know, wonder where I should go?

2473
02:12:13,760 --> 02:12:15,080
I'm like wherever the Lord tells
you.

2474
02:12:15,440 --> 02:12:17,960
Yep.
If he tells you to set up shop

2475
02:12:18,040 --> 02:12:21,080
in the place that seems most
counterintuitive, you better set

2476
02:12:21,080 --> 02:12:24,280
up shop in that spot 'cause he
knows where you're supposed to

2477
02:12:24,280 --> 02:12:27,680
be for sure.
I mean, he made, he made Lehigh

2478
02:12:27,680 --> 02:12:30,440
wander through the desert for
however many years and they

2479
02:12:30,440 --> 02:12:32,200
didn't even know where they were
going, Right?

2480
02:12:32,240 --> 02:12:33,920
Exactly.
That was just like, hey, go out

2481
02:12:33,920 --> 02:12:35,720
there and wander and you'll
figure it out.

2482
02:12:35,960 --> 02:12:41,120
Yep, Yep, absolutely.
All right, So that that pretty

2483
02:12:41,120 --> 02:12:44,400
much takes us to today.
So now let me ask you this

2484
02:12:44,400 --> 02:12:47,720
question.
I'm I'm going to ask you two

2485
02:12:47,720 --> 02:12:50,960
questions here.
If you could go back in time and

2486
02:12:50,960 --> 02:12:53,480
you could have a meeting with
the younger you, what would you

2487
02:12:53,480 --> 02:12:58,120
tell that guy?
You're not as smart as you think

2488
02:12:58,120 --> 02:12:59,640
you are.
That's what I would say.

2489
02:13:01,800 --> 02:13:03,680
OK.
You think you've got it figured

2490
02:13:03,680 --> 02:13:07,000
out and you don't.
You can't have it figured out.

2491
02:13:07,280 --> 02:13:10,680
Because now, now that I've got
way more figured out than I did

2492
02:13:10,680 --> 02:13:13,080
back then, I realized that
actually, that's still an

2493
02:13:13,080 --> 02:13:15,040
incredibly small percentage of
the things I figured.

2494
02:13:15,160 --> 02:13:18,120
Like I'm still I'm still really
not figuring a lot out.

2495
02:13:18,560 --> 02:13:20,560
Dude, I'm, I'm right there with
you.

2496
02:13:20,680 --> 02:13:25,480
Like the more, the more I learn,
the more I'm like, I'm a moron,

2497
02:13:25,720 --> 02:13:27,800
right?
Like at the end of the day, and,

2498
02:13:27,880 --> 02:13:30,600
and, but I think it's supposed
to kind of be that way, right?

2499
02:13:30,960 --> 02:13:32,960
And I think that's one of the
beautiful truths within

2500
02:13:32,960 --> 02:13:35,440
Mormonism.
So you're never done, you're

2501
02:13:35,440 --> 02:13:37,160
never done, you're never
finished.

2502
02:13:37,400 --> 02:13:41,720
You're gonna keep going through
this process as you progress and

2503
02:13:41,720 --> 02:13:44,080
as you proceed, both in this
life and the next.

2504
02:13:46,040 --> 02:13:50,120
I once heard someone say the
closer I get to Christ, the more

2505
02:13:50,120 --> 02:13:53,080
His divinity illuminates my
shortcomings.

2506
02:13:54,240 --> 02:13:55,600
That's a great way to put that.
I like that.

2507
02:13:55,600 --> 02:13:58,560
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that's 100% true,

2508
02:13:58,560 --> 02:14:00,840
right?
The closer we get to the Savior,

2509
02:14:01,120 --> 02:14:04,600
the more we're like, oh, crap, I
didn't see that there, right.

2510
02:14:04,600 --> 02:14:06,360
And I gotta I gotta fix this
now.

2511
02:14:06,760 --> 02:14:09,200
And and that's good.
That's a good thing, right?

2512
02:14:09,200 --> 02:14:13,480
And rather than something that
should, as you put put it

2513
02:14:13,480 --> 02:14:16,240
earlier in the podcast, rather
than something that should

2514
02:14:16,240 --> 02:14:20,920
inspire shame or excessive
guilt, that should be a

2515
02:14:20,920 --> 02:14:22,320
motivation, right?
Yeah.

2516
02:14:22,800 --> 02:14:25,400
And just be like, well, there's
one more thing I gotta get done,

2517
02:14:25,440 --> 02:14:28,840
right.
And, and so often I think we

2518
02:14:28,840 --> 02:14:31,960
get, we get hyper fixated on
where we're going.

2519
02:14:31,960 --> 02:14:33,400
And that's good.
You gotta know where you're

2520
02:14:33,400 --> 02:14:35,880
going.
But sometimes we forget to enjoy

2521
02:14:35,880 --> 02:14:40,840
the ride, right?
And if so much of the gospel is

2522
02:14:40,840 --> 02:14:44,400
teaching us how to enjoy the
ride, even here, right, We

2523
02:14:44,400 --> 02:14:46,160
talked about the Adam God
doctrine.

2524
02:14:46,440 --> 02:14:49,760
One of the things I Love Is All
of a sudden God has proximity to

2525
02:14:49,760 --> 02:14:52,720
me, right?
He's not just my spiritual

2526
02:14:52,720 --> 02:14:56,080
father, but he's, he's my
earthly father in some, you

2527
02:14:56,080 --> 02:14:58,880
know, in a lot of ways.
Michael Ness put it this way.

2528
02:14:58,880 --> 02:15:02,720
So the central question of
Mormonism is who is God?

2529
02:15:03,240 --> 02:15:07,680
How did he become God and how do
we become like him?

2530
02:15:08,560 --> 02:15:12,480
And like, to me, that's that's
like that sums up everything you

2531
02:15:12,480 --> 02:15:15,320
just said.
What is that journey?

2532
02:15:15,720 --> 02:15:18,560
Because the fact that that's
even possible by by the way, for

2533
02:15:18,560 --> 02:15:20,880
those that don't know, this is
something that was actually

2534
02:15:21,080 --> 02:15:23,920
pretty openly spoken about among
early Christians like Errenaeus,

2535
02:15:24,280 --> 02:15:28,440
you know, said this explicitly.
And now the modern Christian

2536
02:15:28,440 --> 02:15:31,640
traditions would, would, I mean,
the closest thing you get is in

2537
02:15:31,640 --> 02:15:34,080
the Orthodox Church, there's
this concept of theosis or

2538
02:15:34,080 --> 02:15:37,160
oneness with God, but it's, it's
still different than progression

2539
02:15:37,160 --> 02:15:39,680
to godhood.
But but the remnant is there.

2540
02:15:39,960 --> 02:15:43,240
And like, you're exactly right.
This is the beauty of Mormonism

2541
02:15:43,240 --> 02:15:45,840
is that it's an eternal process
that literally does not end.

2542
02:15:45,840 --> 02:15:48,840
Matter is eternal.
Yeah, absolutely.

2543
02:15:50,240 --> 02:15:55,040
Let me ask you this question.
What has been the bulk of your

2544
02:15:55,040 --> 02:15:57,800
experiences in dealing with
other fundamentalists?

2545
02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:03,160
Well, for one thing,
fundamentalists, and I'm going

2546
02:16:03,160 --> 02:16:04,920
to be a little bit disparaging
here because I think the

2547
02:16:04,920 --> 02:16:07,160
fundamentalists could use this
message broadly.

2548
02:16:07,640 --> 02:16:09,760
Fundamentalists are really
caught up in a lot of like

2549
02:16:09,760 --> 02:16:12,400
fundamentalist drama.
Like I noticed that, you know,

2550
02:16:12,400 --> 02:16:15,400
different groups have different
ways of thinking about other

2551
02:16:15,400 --> 02:16:19,440
groups and that's, you know,
that's a valid temple that is

2552
02:16:19,440 --> 02:16:23,000
God's work, but this one isn't.
And man, they're just too hung

2553
02:16:23,000 --> 02:16:25,240
up on that.
I think that really the right

2554
02:16:25,240 --> 02:16:28,320
way to think about this is that
as long as somebody is trying

2555
02:16:28,320 --> 02:16:31,840
their very best, everyone is
probably operating with a degree

2556
02:16:31,840 --> 02:16:34,559
of inspiration.
And that degree of inspiration

2557
02:16:34,719 --> 02:16:41,240
is probably, I won't say
probably that degree of

2558
02:16:41,240 --> 02:16:44,080
inspiration could well be less
than your inspiration or less

2559
02:16:44,080 --> 02:16:45,360
than the inspiration of your
group.

2560
02:16:45,559 --> 02:16:47,520
But you don't know what God is
doing with those people.

2561
02:16:47,520 --> 02:16:49,360
You don't know what plans the
Lord has for them.

2562
02:16:50,200 --> 02:16:52,680
What you do know is that they
are members.

2563
02:16:52,680 --> 02:16:54,280
They are brothers in your Mormon
tradition.

2564
02:16:54,280 --> 02:16:55,559
They're brothers in the
restoration.

2565
02:16:56,120 --> 02:16:59,639
And so, you know, like, I think
about like really controversial

2566
02:16:59,639 --> 02:17:02,200
groups and fundamentalism, like
the the second book of

2567
02:17:02,200 --> 02:17:05,080
commandments people, for
example, go well, go read that

2568
02:17:05,080 --> 02:17:06,760
stuff.
You know, like there's, there's

2569
02:17:06,760 --> 02:17:09,080
inspiration in that too.
And there may be, you know, you

2570
02:17:09,080 --> 02:17:12,200
might be the kind of person that
thinks that that group of people

2571
02:17:12,200 --> 02:17:15,280
is evil for this reason or that
reason, or they're they're being

2572
02:17:15,280 --> 02:17:17,120
run by an evil guy or what,
whatever it is.

2573
02:17:17,440 --> 02:17:20,240
But I think it was, you know,
someone told me this was a

2574
02:17:20,240 --> 02:17:24,559
Brigham Young quote and I've
never read it, but it was

2575
02:17:24,559 --> 02:17:27,799
something to the effect of like,
I've only ever benefited from

2576
02:17:27,799 --> 02:17:30,600
accepting the benefited from
accepting the 99 truth to the

2577
02:17:30,600 --> 02:17:32,360
devil gives me and rejecting as
one lie.

2578
02:17:32,959 --> 02:17:37,280
And, and so even if the people
that are not members of your

2579
02:17:37,280 --> 02:17:42,080
group are in that analogy, the
devil right to, to to use that

2580
02:17:42,080 --> 02:17:48,240
analogy, they still are probably
as brothers in Mormonism, as

2581
02:17:48,240 --> 02:17:52,320
brothers in the restoration,
going to have a lot of inspired

2582
02:17:53,000 --> 02:17:56,520
truths that you can learn
something from because you don't

2583
02:17:56,520 --> 02:17:58,639
have it all figured out and you
don't know what God's doing with

2584
02:17:58,639 --> 02:18:00,360
other people.
And at the end of the day, think

2585
02:18:04,120 --> 02:18:06,920
about it like this.
Say you have a kid and your kid

2586
02:18:06,920 --> 02:18:08,760
grows up and they're not a
member of your group.

2587
02:18:09,520 --> 02:18:11,920
Wouldn't you rather that they
married into like another

2588
02:18:11,920 --> 02:18:14,559
fundamentalist group or like, I
don't know, the LDS church or

2589
02:18:14,559 --> 02:18:18,559
something than like, I, I don't
know, go be like a liberal

2590
02:18:18,559 --> 02:18:20,639
atheist that lives in
Washington, DC?

2591
02:18:20,639 --> 02:18:21,920
Like what?
Wouldn't that be better?

2592
02:18:22,280 --> 02:18:25,520
You know, and that tells you
something about like about like

2593
02:18:26,400 --> 02:18:29,360
Mormonism as a whole.
So, so I think that would be one

2594
02:18:29,360 --> 02:18:31,719
thing that I would say I have
learned and dealing with

2595
02:18:31,719 --> 02:18:36,200
fundamentalists is people have
the wrong mindset about like

2596
02:18:36,400 --> 02:18:38,559
teams.
Now, the good thing that I would

2597
02:18:38,559 --> 02:18:40,320
say about fundamentalist,
because I can say a lot of good

2598
02:18:40,320 --> 02:18:44,920
things is, man, there are some
good people in this work and

2599
02:18:44,920 --> 02:18:47,400
they're also really normal.
And that's probably the biggest

2600
02:18:47,400 --> 02:18:51,520
thing.
So my buddy Jeff Wall, his wife,

2601
02:18:51,520 --> 02:18:54,120
comes up to me and and she says
to me one day after we had

2602
02:18:54,120 --> 02:18:56,280
touched down in Missouri and she
knew we were converts from

2603
02:18:56,280 --> 02:18:59,120
totally not Mormon, like a not
Mormon background.

2604
02:18:59,639 --> 02:19:01,480
She says, so was this a little
bit of a culture shock?

2605
02:19:02,280 --> 02:19:06,760
And I thought about it for a
minute and I was like, no, no,

2606
02:19:06,760 --> 02:19:09,040
it wasn't.
And she looks at me, She's like,

2607
02:19:09,080 --> 02:19:11,240
really?
And I'm like, yeah, actually it,

2608
02:19:11,280 --> 02:19:13,280
it really just feels like we
figured out we're all the normal

2609
02:19:13,280 --> 02:19:14,520
people were hanging out this
whole time.

2610
02:19:15,920 --> 02:19:22,120
Because like in this world of
weirdness and, and in a world

2611
02:19:22,120 --> 02:19:27,440
that denies obvious, real
objective truths in the name of

2612
02:19:27,440 --> 02:19:31,680
making people feel good about
themselves, like to find a group

2613
02:19:31,680 --> 02:19:34,600
of people like fundamentalists
that are just perfect, grounded

2614
02:19:34,719 --> 02:19:38,719
in the frank and real principles
of the gospel.

2615
02:19:38,799 --> 02:19:41,920
Plain language is a Mormon is a,
is a, you know, is a Mormon

2616
02:19:41,920 --> 02:19:43,760
principle, right?
Like this stuff is written in

2617
02:19:43,760 --> 02:19:46,280
plain language.
And to find people that are

2618
02:19:46,280 --> 02:19:50,560
grounded in that, it just feels
like, you know, oh, OK, this is

2619
02:19:50,560 --> 02:19:55,280
an island of normalcy in a, in a
torrential sea of chaos.

2620
02:19:55,840 --> 02:19:59,480
And that was, I think, the
greatest thing that I took from

2621
02:19:59,800 --> 02:20:02,960
meeting fundamentalists.
Dude, I couldn't agree with you

2622
02:20:02,960 --> 02:20:05,040
more.
Like the first time I started

2623
02:20:05,040 --> 02:20:07,760
meeting with fundamentalists,
and I'm ashamed to admit this

2624
02:20:07,760 --> 02:20:12,880
now, I went strapped, right?
I'm like, OK, if, if I gotta

2625
02:20:12,880 --> 02:20:15,040
shoot my way out of here, so be
it.

2626
02:20:15,320 --> 02:20:20,280
But we're we'll, we'll figure
this out now to my surprise,

2627
02:20:20,280 --> 02:20:25,120
though, right?
Because really, my exposure to

2628
02:20:25,120 --> 02:20:28,080
fundamentalists had been Warren
Jeffs to that point, right?

2629
02:20:28,720 --> 02:20:31,800
And, and really my first two
encounters with and, and I'm not

2630
02:20:31,800 --> 02:20:35,160
gonna name names, but my first
few encounters with

2631
02:20:35,160 --> 02:20:39,240
fundamentalism, that first go
round, I have, man, I met some

2632
02:20:39,240 --> 02:20:42,880
guys who just flat scared the
crap out of me, right?

2633
02:20:43,200 --> 02:20:47,200
And so I'm like, crap, like, I
really didn't want to even be

2634
02:20:47,200 --> 02:20:49,520
LDS.
But now I seem to be going

2635
02:20:50,160 --> 02:20:56,280
deeper in this, right?
And I was so surprised, and I

2636
02:20:56,280 --> 02:21:00,880
feel ashamed that I was as
surprised because I should have

2637
02:21:00,880 --> 02:21:02,640
known better, right?
But I didn't.

2638
02:21:03,320 --> 02:21:06,320
So, so this gets at this thing
I've been hitting that that

2639
02:21:06,320 --> 02:21:08,440
we've been talking about, which
is the term fundamentalist.

2640
02:21:08,920 --> 02:21:11,160
I don't like this.
I don't like this term and it I,

2641
02:21:11,160 --> 02:21:14,400
I get, I get like why we use it.
It's kind of a tradition, but I

2642
02:21:14,400 --> 02:21:17,520
don't like the term.
And the reason that I don't like

2643
02:21:17,520 --> 02:21:20,480
the term is because we don't
really actually disagree with

2644
02:21:20,720 --> 02:21:23,360
almost anybody in the
restoration on the fundamentals,

2645
02:21:23,800 --> 02:21:28,680
baptism, you know, repentance,
like, you know, learning the

2646
02:21:28,680 --> 02:21:31,360
principles of the gospel, the
Book of Mormon, like the

2647
02:21:31,360 --> 02:21:33,200
fundamentals.
We we kind of all agree on

2648
02:21:33,200 --> 02:21:34,800
those.
That's not actually where we

2649
02:21:34,800 --> 02:21:37,240
disagree.
Where we disagree is unlike is

2650
02:21:37,240 --> 02:21:39,600
unlike doctrines of deeper
understanding or on the higher

2651
02:21:39,600 --> 02:21:41,440
laws.
So first of all, it doesn't

2652
02:21:41,440 --> 02:21:43,640
fully capture the reason that we
are split.

2653
02:21:43,640 --> 02:21:46,640
Second of all, Fundamentalist is
literally the name of the group

2654
02:21:46,640 --> 02:21:50,120
that Warren Jeffs ran.
Right. 3rd, in an effort to be

2655
02:21:50,120 --> 02:21:54,320
more PC, the LDS church has
recently announced that the term

2656
02:21:54,320 --> 02:21:57,560
Mormon is not the proper term
anymore, which means that that

2657
02:21:57,560 --> 02:22:00,440
is an orphan term and so I think
we should reclaim it.

2658
02:22:00,720 --> 02:22:02,560
And I think.
We should, we should say, we

2659
02:22:02,560 --> 02:22:04,480
should say the Saints or the
LDS.

2660
02:22:04,480 --> 02:22:06,880
Those are the people that belong
to the church and the Mormons

2661
02:22:07,320 --> 02:22:09,480
are the people like us.
We're not fundamentalists.

2662
02:22:09,480 --> 02:22:11,600
Of course, everyone in the
Restoration is a fundamentalist.

2663
02:22:11,600 --> 02:22:12,760
We all agree on the
fundamentals.

2664
02:22:13,120 --> 02:22:14,920
But we're Mormons.
We're Mormons.

2665
02:22:14,920 --> 02:22:16,920
We're the people that have the
original doctrines.

2666
02:22:17,040 --> 02:22:20,720
You know, a couple friends of
mine shout out to Ben Schaefer

2667
02:22:20,720 --> 02:22:24,360
and one to Michael Ness.
Ben Schaefer likes the term

2668
02:22:25,040 --> 02:22:28,680
Orthodox Mormon.
Michael Ness likes the term

2669
02:22:28,680 --> 02:22:31,160
Pioneer Mormon.
I think, I think both of those

2670
02:22:31,240 --> 02:22:34,320
would be would be good
alternatives and and I agree

2671
02:22:34,320 --> 02:22:37,600
with you that that Warren's done
a number on that, but.

2672
02:22:37,600 --> 02:22:40,200
Well, and, and, and what people
don't realize outside of this is

2673
02:22:40,200 --> 02:22:43,160
that the people that dislike
Warren the most, other than like

2674
02:22:43,160 --> 02:22:45,840
the actual like fundamentalist
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter

2675
02:22:45,840 --> 02:22:48,960
Day Saints, is the
fundamentalists like, Oh yeah,

2676
02:22:49,080 --> 02:22:51,480
ones that dislike the guy.
Wait, trust me, as much as as

2677
02:22:51,480 --> 02:22:53,920
much as you know, Joe on the
street doesn't like Warren

2678
02:22:53,920 --> 02:22:57,120
Jeffs, I promise you, your
average person worshipping at

2679
02:22:57,120 --> 02:23:00,120
the, you know, at the AUB
meetinghouse in Bluffdale

2680
02:23:00,320 --> 02:23:01,680
dislikes Warren more than that
guy.

2681
02:23:01,680 --> 02:23:03,720
I promise.
Like it's the people don't

2682
02:23:03,720 --> 02:23:06,520
realize that, you know, they
think that there's like a

2683
02:23:06,520 --> 02:23:10,760
connection and there is, but
only in terms of history.

2684
02:23:11,160 --> 02:23:14,920
Like the actual, you know, real
sentiments of people in

2685
02:23:14,920 --> 02:23:18,160
fundamentalism towards Warren is
like, hell no.

2686
02:23:18,440 --> 02:23:22,480
Yeah, yeah, No, he's made all of
our lives significantly harder,

2687
02:23:23,040 --> 02:23:26,760
right?
Yeah, absolutely.

2688
02:23:27,560 --> 02:23:32,240
But back to the original point,
I, I was amazed at how normal

2689
02:23:32,240 --> 02:23:36,360
everybody was, right.
And and the, the, the that I

2690
02:23:36,360 --> 02:23:40,360
think is the big barrier for a
lot of folks who who explore

2691
02:23:40,360 --> 02:23:44,120
this line of thought, right.
It's like I think my wife's

2692
02:23:44,120 --> 02:23:45,720
hotter without the Prairie
dress.

2693
02:23:45,720 --> 02:23:46,680
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah.

2694
02:23:46,920 --> 02:23:53,400
Yeah, or, or, you know, gosh, I,
I just can't see doing it the

2695
02:23:53,400 --> 02:23:56,120
way that it's done, right.
And, and that's the only thing

2696
02:23:56,120 --> 02:23:59,080
they got is just what's given to
them on the news with Warren

2697
02:23:59,080 --> 02:24:04,120
Jeffs and all the craziness.
The, the lafferty's Ervil,

2698
02:24:04,240 --> 02:24:06,280
right?
You, you, you do have some bad

2699
02:24:06,280 --> 02:24:12,800
actors there, right?
But 99.9% of us are fairly

2700
02:24:12,800 --> 02:24:15,280
normal.
We have jobs, we get up, we do

2701
02:24:15,280 --> 02:24:17,960
those jobs.
Our kids are educated.

2702
02:24:20,000 --> 02:24:21,760
Yeah.
I remember I lived in Utah and

2703
02:24:21,760 --> 02:24:25,280
someone said, well, how many
fundamentalists do you think you

2704
02:24:25,280 --> 02:24:27,240
are?
I was like, I guarantee you, you

2705
02:24:27,240 --> 02:24:29,360
work with somebody.
Yeah, yeah.

2706
02:24:29,440 --> 02:24:33,840
I guarantee you work with
somebody or you work with

2707
02:24:33,840 --> 02:24:37,960
somebody who knows them.
I would, I would say to any of

2708
02:24:37,960 --> 02:24:42,600
the LDS members listening, if
you if you knew all of the

2709
02:24:42,920 --> 02:24:45,520
companies that were contracted
to build your temples, you might

2710
02:24:45,520 --> 02:24:49,880
know how how closely you are
connected to fundamentalists.

2711
02:24:50,120 --> 02:24:55,840
Absolutely, absolutely.
And so it, it's a, it's, it was

2712
02:24:55,840 --> 02:24:59,360
one of those things that I was
ashamed that I was shocked at,

2713
02:24:59,360 --> 02:25:02,080
to be right, honest with you,
how normal everyone was.

2714
02:25:03,040 --> 02:25:05,280
But I think that's a barrier for
a lot of folks.

2715
02:25:05,280 --> 02:25:07,960
And I think that's something
that that just needs to be said.

2716
02:25:09,280 --> 02:25:11,240
There's a learning curve to it
for sure.

2717
02:25:11,600 --> 02:25:17,760
But in my experience, 99% of all
fundamentalists have been like,

2718
02:25:17,760 --> 02:25:20,520
no, no, no, you're OK Come over
here and we'll talk this out

2719
02:25:20,520 --> 02:25:23,200
and, and see if this makes
sense, right?

2720
02:25:23,800 --> 02:25:27,640
It's not, it's not someone
trying to Lord it over you.

2721
02:25:27,680 --> 02:25:32,360
It's not somebody trying to, to,
you know, tell you how bad

2722
02:25:32,360 --> 02:25:36,720
you've been.
It's a welcoming community and

2723
02:25:36,720 --> 02:25:43,160
and most most folks who who live
a fundamentalist way of life

2724
02:25:44,480 --> 02:25:46,320
just want to do their part and
help out.

2725
02:25:46,800 --> 02:25:50,320
I have never had anything but
welcoming experiences from

2726
02:25:50,360 --> 02:25:52,960
basically everybody.
Yep, absolutely.

2727
02:25:53,160 --> 02:25:57,400
The I I did go to, I did go to
an AUB meeting one time and

2728
02:25:57,440 --> 02:26:02,040
there was one guy that like was
very clearly not happy that I

2729
02:26:02,040 --> 02:26:06,840
was there, but every other
person was like, oh hey, what's

2730
02:26:06,840 --> 02:26:08,200
your name?
And you know, where'd you come

2731
02:26:08,200 --> 02:26:09,440
from and what are you doing
here?

2732
02:26:09,440 --> 02:26:12,080
And like, in a very like,
genuinely interested and

2733
02:26:12,080 --> 02:26:14,360
friendly way.
And, and that, I mean, that's

2734
02:26:14,360 --> 02:26:16,200
the only dude I can think of was
that guy.

2735
02:26:16,680 --> 02:26:20,680
And, and I found out later that
that's the group from which like

2736
02:26:20,680 --> 02:26:22,400
a lot of these reality TV guys
came.

2737
02:26:22,400 --> 02:26:24,160
And so then they would get
people coming in.

2738
02:26:24,160 --> 02:26:27,200
They were like, oh, well, I want
five wives, so I'm gonna join

2739
02:26:27,200 --> 02:26:29,400
this group.
And it's like, well, OK, I get

2740
02:26:29,400 --> 02:26:31,440
why you might have been a little
skeptical of the outside, you

2741
02:26:31,600 --> 02:26:33,560
know what I'm saying?
Sure, sure.

2742
02:26:33,560 --> 02:26:36,520
Yeah.
Well, dude, good stuff.

2743
02:26:36,520 --> 02:26:38,880
Is there anything that we didn't
cover that you wanted to?

2744
02:26:40,560 --> 02:26:41,800
I mean, I can't think of
anything.

2745
02:26:41,800 --> 02:26:42,400
I think.
Yeah.

2746
02:26:42,400 --> 02:26:44,000
I mean, you're you're pretty
good at asking questions.

2747
02:26:44,000 --> 02:26:46,160
So I feel like I've kind of
exhausted, like the entire

2748
02:26:46,160 --> 02:26:47,800
story.
Like if you just transcribed

2749
02:26:47,800 --> 02:26:49,760
this into a book, I feel like it
would basically be My

2750
02:26:49,760 --> 02:26:51,600
Autobiography.
I could I could get you a

2751
02:26:51,960 --> 02:26:55,240
transcription.
I don't need it, I'm know the

2752
02:26:55,240 --> 02:26:56,920
biography.
Well, can I print it for you?

2753
02:26:56,920 --> 02:26:58,720
I mean publish it for you.
I'm just kidding.

2754
02:26:59,320 --> 02:27:01,120
Sure you can.
You know you can publish it and

2755
02:27:01,120 --> 02:27:01,880
take the royalties.
Too.

2756
02:27:01,880 --> 02:27:03,360
It's all yours.
No, no, no, no, no.

2757
02:27:03,560 --> 02:27:06,400
I'm just playing dude.
I think you're an awesome guy.

2758
02:27:06,400 --> 02:27:09,640
I I love talking to you.
We've talked before off off the

2759
02:27:09,640 --> 02:27:12,360
podcast and, and I do I think
you're a great guy.

2760
02:27:13,040 --> 02:27:16,120
I I can't wait to see what the
Lord has in store for you,

2761
02:27:16,120 --> 02:27:17,680
'cause I think you're gonna do
some great things.

2762
02:27:18,120 --> 02:27:19,760
Thanks, man.
I don't think I'm that great.

2763
02:27:19,960 --> 02:27:22,840
I think that I am excited to see
what the Lord has in store for

2764
02:27:22,840 --> 02:27:24,120
me.
And I think what you're doing

2765
02:27:24,120 --> 02:27:27,400
with this podcast is like, it
really matters because there are

2766
02:27:27,400 --> 02:27:30,880
people that are going to hear
this, that are going to say

2767
02:27:32,560 --> 02:27:35,040
these people are normal just
like we talked about.

2768
02:27:35,400 --> 02:27:38,640
And when that happens, that's
when the converts come.

2769
02:27:38,640 --> 02:27:40,800
And I think there's a point of
inflection that is coming in the

2770
02:27:40,800 --> 02:27:41,760
LDS.
True sooner.

2771
02:27:41,760 --> 02:27:44,960
Rather than later when they
marry a male couple in the

2772
02:27:44,960 --> 02:27:47,480
temple, that is going to make a
lot of people go.

2773
02:27:47,960 --> 02:27:49,960
I'm having a faith crisis.
And when people have a faith

2774
02:27:49,960 --> 02:27:51,360
crisis, they're going to go one
of two ways.

2775
02:27:51,360 --> 02:27:53,440
They're either going to become
fundamentalists or they are

2776
02:27:53,440 --> 02:27:57,000
going to leave entirely.
Yep, Christina Rossetti has has

2777
02:27:57,040 --> 02:28:00,360
often said when you, when you
start picking up the Journal of

2778
02:28:00,360 --> 02:28:03,800
Discourses and you read them
Seriously, you've only got two

2779
02:28:03,800 --> 02:28:07,440
options, which is to not be
Mormon at all or start heading

2780
02:28:07,440 --> 02:28:10,400
the, the the fundy way.
So awesome.

2781
02:28:10,840 --> 02:28:13,520
Well, dude, that was good stuff.
Hang out for 5 minutes.

2782
02:28:13,800 --> 02:28:15,760
Just talk to you for a few off
the air if you're good with

2783
02:28:15,760 --> 02:28:17,240
that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2784
02:28:17,240 --> 02:28:18,480
All right.
Awesome.

2785
02:28:18,480 --> 02:28:19,720
Thanks, man.
Thank you.

2786
02:28:19,720 --> 02:28:52,200
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2787
02:28:52,240 --> 02:28:53,560
Renegade podcast.