Episode #133: The Forgotten Teachings Of Joseph Smith W/Drew Briney

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So when we talk about the
revelations of Joseph Smith,

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where does your mind go?
Well, if you're anything like

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me, it goes directly to the
Doctrine and Covenants.

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Now, you're not wrong in
thinking this, but what if I

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said that there was a whole
bunch more revelations and

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teachings from Joseph Smith that
really get looked at?

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Because of the.
Hours it would take to catalogue

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and publish those teachings.
Man, if there was only a guy

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that we knew who would want to
endure that kind of pain to

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publish these things from
Joseph, Well, lucky.

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For us there is.
Drew Brownie joins me again on

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the podcast as we talk about his
new books, The Forgotten

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Teachings and Insights of Joseph
Smith.

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We talk about how the book came
together, how he sources

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material, and how he went about
putting the book together.

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We then go over a few pages of
the book and along the way find

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ourselves in some pretty deep
doctrinal discussions as we talk

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about the forgotten teachings of
the Prophet Joseph Smith.

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That and more on this episode of
The Mormon Renegade.

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You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
How's it going, Drew?

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I'm mostly fabulous, thanks.
How are you?

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Dude, do you ever get caught
like just horrible cramps in

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your hands?
I mean, I, I think you put out

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like a book a week.
Yeah, well, I get more leg

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cramps than than hand cramps
from sitting too long, I guess,

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but holy cow.
Yeah, I've been working super

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long hours for a long time just
trying to get things to where I

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can.
I can write without it being the

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sidebar, you know?
I can just write full time and

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survive.
That would make me happy.

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I'm not there yet, but I I keep
pretending I am so.

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Well, dude, you keep writing
like this, it's a matter of

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time, right?
Like it's not a matter of if you

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are prolific, brother.
And it's awesome to see 'cause

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it's stuff that we really need
out here in in the

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fundamentalist world.
Yeah, I'm, I'm particularly

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excited about the the last
volume.

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It's it, it's what I fussed with
margins and that sort of stuff.

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It's over 1000 pages and I went
back to the same problem I had

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when I did Adam God teachings.
I thought, nobody's going to

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read this, it's too long.
So I split it in two volumes.

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I think that helps some.
But I thought, you know, this

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is, this is a super important
topic.

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This isn't one people can blow
off and say I don't need to know

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this, so maybe it'll do better,
but not anyway, remains to be

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seen.
But super, super interesting

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stuff.
Lots of gold.

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Lots and lots of gold.
Nice.

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What was the what was the name
of the book again?

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Drew, It's two books, right?
Right.

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So it's part of my Joseph Smith
Doctrines and Insights series.

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But these two volumes are called
The Forgotten Teachings that

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focuses on the journals and
memoirs of Joseph Smith.

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Not his personal journals and
memoirs, but people memoiring

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and journaling about him and his
and specifically his teachings.

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Not just anecdotal, you know, he
was nice to a child type stuff,

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but then, you know, in fact, he
had something that he was

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teaching.
I'm going to do another two

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volumes after this.
That's going to take probably at

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least a year to get done.
But that volume will be called

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the The Forgotten Writings.
And that will be focusing on

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periodicals and, you know,
articles that he wrote,

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teachings that were found in in
quorum meetings and that sort of

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thing.
Thank you.

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Once once that's done, then
I'll, I'll have other volumes.

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I'm comparing the original
sources of the teachings of the

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Prophet Joe Smith with the
published teachings of the

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Prophet Joe Smith, noting all
the changes.

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I'm gonna be doing a book
comparing the changes, but in

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the final volume, I will just
have those noted what was

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changed along with these four
volumes that I'm doing right

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now.
I expect it'll be two to 3000

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pages with annotation
annotations and that will be the

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complete teachings of Joseph
Smith.

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So that's that's what I'm
working toward and what I'm

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hoping to do.
Dude, that's that's quite an

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undertaking.
So where are you taking most of

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your source material from?
Oh, this particular one has just

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been all over the place.
I've had a a few people say,

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aren't you just revamping the
words of Joseph Smith and the

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answer is no.
And aren't you just getting it

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all from the the papers of
Joseph Smith?

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And the answer to that is also
no.

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I've been compiling a lot of
this stuff literally for a

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couple decades.
And I've got a bunch of journals

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and memoirs and that sort of
stuff in, in, in the database

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format.
And so I've been pulling from

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that.
That said, I ended up using a, a

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whole bunch of material from the
book Remembering Joseph I.

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As soon as I got that book, I
loved it.

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I was, I was so impressed with
just the, the quality of

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material in there.
You know, I've done a lot of

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reading in the early journals
and he's done a good job of kind

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of pulling out the, the good
stuff.

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That said, the digital version
is about 900 pages.

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The published version is about
400 pages, maybe 5.

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And so there's tons of stuff
digitally that you have to sort

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through that aren't in his
normal places.

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And so since he had access to
some of the original sources

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better than I did apparently, or
thought I did at least, I, I

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used his as an original
resource.

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But you know, after I combed
through all that, I also had

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already compiled stuff from a
book called They Knew the

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Prophet by Hiram Andress.
And there's some challenges with

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that source.
So whenever I could, I would

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prefer my own notes or
remembering Joseph's notes.

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And then a third major book is
called Joseph the Seer, and the

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latter 2 books are a little bit
more free in what they report.

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So I think it's Mark Mcconkey
does remembering Joseph.

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But he openly acknowledges in
there, you know, something he's

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not faith promoting or doesn't
sound actually right.

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He's going to scream through it.
And I, I really hate that

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approach.
And honestly, I, I, I, I don't

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know what sources he had and
what he screamed through, but I

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don't think there are probably
tons of them that he, he cut

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short.
There may be more likely just

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journals that he didn't even use
at all.

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So then I went back to my
databases, did that.

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I did go through Words of Joseph
Smith.

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However, Words of Joseph Smith
includes stuff that was source

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material for teachings of
Prophet Joseph Smith, which is

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what I don't want in my book.
And for all the stuff that they

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report of the teachings of
Joseph Smith, a lot of it has no

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teachings at all.
It just says Joseph spoke today

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or Joseph taught parable talents
today and that's it.

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And if that's the case, I'm not
going to include that account

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'cause there's no teaching and
that's the whole point of this

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book.
So I also did use source

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material from the Joseph Smith
papers, although not tons.

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I, I use that primarily.
You know, if I find a source, I

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see if they've got it so I can
check back with the original and

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if they've got it great.
And if not, then you know they

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don't.
So at any rate, so tons of

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different source materials is is
the end result.

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The ones that were most helpful
were remembering Joseph words of

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Joseph Smith and you know, hire
managers says they need the

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profit probably come in 3rd.
I will learn more heavily on

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Joseph Smith Papers project with
the next two volumes because

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they do have a lot of that
material online.

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But for journals and memoirs, a
lot of that stuff is post

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Joseph.
So that's not on their database

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at all.
They're they're looking for

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stuff from Joseph to Joseph,
contemporary to Joseph, not

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somebody who says, oh, I
remember 10 years ago we went to

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Zions camp.
You know, they're not going to

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have most of that type of
material there, at at least not

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yet.
I know they're working on it,

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but it's not.
There's not much there yet.

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Right.
I'm curious, as you're sorting

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through all these original
sources, how are you 'cause like

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I, I never wanna call I, I don't
think people intentionally lie

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about this stuff.
I think what happens is over

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time the, the memory degrades,
right?

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How do you sort through that,
right?

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I mean, how do you get to a
point to where you can trust a

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journal entry from someone from
20 years back going, I remember

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the Prophet had said whatever,
how do you get there?

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Right.
Yeah, thank you.

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That's actually a really good
question that I wasn't going to

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address 'cause I kind of forgot
about it.

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I do address that quite a bit in
my introduction.

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If I was going to be doing a
book where I was trying to do

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what was only reliable, I would
have created a very different

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book.
So to be completely fair and,

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and, and in all honesty, it
would probably be only less than

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10% smaller because I didn't
make that judgment call.

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I didn't want to make that
judgment call.

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I'm frankly tired of people
making that judgment call for

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me.
And, and like, you know, and I,

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I don't know Mark Mcconkey, I
just love his book.

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So this, this is not personal at
all, but I really don't like his

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approach saying, well, I am the
gatekeeper as to what's

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doctrinal and what's not.
I know because I don't know his

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uncle or dad or somebody's Bruce
R Mcconkey and you know, his

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book says this or whatever.
I, I don't care what their

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approach is.
That doesn't make it doctrinal

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for me.
It doesn't make it doctrinal for

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the world just because somebody
said so.

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You know, unless we have a
common agreed upon key holder

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that everybody acknowledges,
yes, Sir, you have the keys and

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we know that you've seen the
Savior and he's laid his hands

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upon you and we all trust your
word as coming from God.

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When you say thus saith the
Lord, unless we have that person

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on earth that everybody can
agree to how, how do we make

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those determinations?
I I don't think we can really do

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that.
And so instead of doing that, I

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just include everything.
If it purports to be a teaching

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or a doctrine, then I put it
there.

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And if it's clearly, if there's
something clearly making it not

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a reliable source, then I will
footnote that, you know, this

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contradicts the account, blah,
blah, blah.

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You know, we've got records,
contemporary records that show

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this was the wrong date or what
have you.

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I do a lot of footnotes until I
did the audio book version and I

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deleted my 1400 footnotes and
1400 topical tags, I didn't know

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how much I was really
delighting.

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I think I have about 25% of the
book as references and stuff

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like that.
So at any rate, so I do do a lot

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of notes and, and things to kind
of help out with that.

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That said, there, there are LDS
things there.

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There are things that support
Joseph Smith the 3rd as being

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the successor of Joseph.
Not a lot, but there's, there's

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some stuff there.
There's stuff that's very sounds

225
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,360
very mainstream and there's
stuff that sounds really

226
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,160
whacking out there.
And I, I just, I let it sit.

227
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,960
I'm not the arbiter of truth.
I'm just, I'm just presenting

228
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,840
everything.
When I have everything, then I,

229
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,400
you know, maybe I can organize
it a little bit better so you

230
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,720
can determine that.
That said, I did something I

231
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,800
don't think anybody's ever done
before, at least not Mormon

232
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,160
circles.
And I think that will help

233
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,600
people to discern that on their
own better.

234
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,800
And that is this.
I did a ridiculously complex

235
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,120
index.
So one of those things that most

236
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,160
people might never notice
because who reads the index?

237
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,160
You know, you want to look at
something once a year you do,

238
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:05,840
but otherwise you forget it.
But I literally spent, man, I, I

239
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,120
can't remember.
At one point I wrote it down.

240
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,560
It was like 40 to 60 hours just
on the index and I did two

241
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:14,480
things for it to make it really
worthwhile.

242
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,360
And and it's kind of hard to
gauge even then because I hand

243
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,840
wrote topical tags for every
entry in the entire book.

244
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,280
So I would read the entry and I
would say, you know, if I was

245
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,160
studying women in the
priesthood, I would want this

246
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,600
account.
It doesn't really teach that.

247
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,600
And I can make the rebuttal
argument, and frankly, I think

248
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,520
this is referring to something
else, but if I was studying that

249
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,040
topic, I would want to know.
So I put women in priesthood is

250
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,520
a topical tag at the top of that
entry.

251
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,160
So when I did my index, I
created my index around all of

252
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,080
those topical entries and added
them to what was my normal

253
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,200
exhaustive index that I've been
curating for a couple dozen

254
00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,040
years now.
So when I did the index, it

255
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,600
would automatically pick up all
those topical tags.

256
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,160
And therefore, you know, their
accounts that you know, they're,

257
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,800
they're, if you look up blood
atonement or something in the

258
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,640
back, it will take you to
certain pages that you might

259
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,480
read and say that's, that's not
blood atonement.

260
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,360
And I, I would say I agree.
But if I was studying that

261
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,520
topic, this specific clause and
phrase in here really implicates

262
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,360
the Denites as being involved in
this thing.

263
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,200
And that would be a blood
atonement study issue.

264
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,880
So I hand basically did the
entire index.

265
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,920
On top of that, I had the
computer digitize, you know what

266
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,440
it does?
And I sorted out people from

267
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,120
topics and it's still like, I
don't know, 25 pages long or

268
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,320
something.
It's really, really long.

269
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,880
Then I did something else and I,
I didn't do this exhaustively,

270
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:56,000
but I think it's still helpful.
I underlined entries in the in

271
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,560
in the in the index, and I put
an entry for all the references

272
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,320
in the TPGS and WGS on that
topic in the index.

273
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,080
You can cross reference them.
So let's say for example, you're

274
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,360
like, I want to know where
dedication to home shows up in

275
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,040
teachings Prophet Joe Smith.
It doesn't.

276
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,920
Let's say it did right.
Then there's an entry there that

277
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,000
says go to TPGS and you can go
follow it.

278
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,280
I also did that for individual
entries.

279
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,400
So I spent an enormous amount of
time trying to provide cross

280
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:32,000
references for every topic I
could so that somebody looking

281
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,640
to say, is this reliable or not?
That's where this all goes back

282
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,240
to.
Is this entry reliable or is it

283
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,560
contradictory?
Or do I put this on the shelf?

284
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,320
Where does this go?
They've got a reasonable head

285
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,440
start in figuring that out on
their own and and without me

286
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,280
shoving it down their throat.
This is my belief.

287
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:49,840
So you have to have it in my
book.

288
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,480
I just didn't want to make that
call so I just put it all in

289
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,240
there.
You know, there's a kind of a

290
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,240
technique, I guess you could say
within surveying, whereas if you

291
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,119
find a discrepancy, a sizable
discrepancy, you will often

292
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,560
times show everything that you
found.

293
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,839
And I remember the guy who
trained me said, it's really

294
00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:16,040
hard for someone to call you a
liar if you show them everything

295
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,520
you found.
And exactly.

296
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,119
And I think that that that what
you're describing there probably

297
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,760
encapsulate encapulates that
perfectly because again, you're

298
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,200
not making the judgment call.
You're just saying, you're just

299
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,320
saying, hey, this is this is
what I found.

300
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,320
This is what's here and take it
or leave it.

301
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,760
Exactly, And if I missed
something, then second edition,

302
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,240
it will be there.
And as kind of evidence of my

303
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,200
good faith on that, I, I found
every reference I could have

304
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,680
last charge and put it in volume
one.

305
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,480
That the one that we, you know,
we did podcast about a year ago.

306
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,720
And literally, you know, not
long after I got kind of chewed

307
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,280
out for by somebody for I said
kind of 'cause it was not

308
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,440
aggressive.
But at any rate, you know, he

309
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,480
said everybody always misses
this quote.

310
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,720
And I'm like, I specifically
asked you to give me all the

311
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,480
quotes you had if I missed
anything.

312
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,000
But but so he posted it didn't,
didn't, didn't give it to me

313
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,840
directly, but I went and I I
added that to this book.

314
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,000
That quote is now in this one
because it's one of the

315
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,760
teachings that was of Joseph.
And so if I miss it, I will, I

316
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,520
will fix it in future editions
for sure.

317
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,440
And I expect I'll have to
continue to do that.

318
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,440
This type of stuff gets
published year after year and

319
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:44,440
you never know what's going to
be missed, you know, And so five

320
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,600
years from now, somebody's going
to publish a journal by

321
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,040
somebody.
We don't even know who it is.

322
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,640
And we're gonna find out that
they were a friend of a friend

323
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,840
of Joseph's and they're gonna
have some really interesting

324
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,000
material in there.
And it won't be in my book.

325
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:58,280
So I'll continually have to
update a source like this.

326
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,160
There's just no getting around
that.

327
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:03,960
And, and I, I resolved myself to
that early on, but I thought,

328
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,880
you know, here we are how many
decades into the restoration and

329
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,640
we don't know where to find
stuff that Joseph taught.

330
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:17,840
I, I had an experience and it's
kind of a Daydream, I guess.

331
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,520
I, it certainly wasn't an open
vision or anything like that,

332
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,480
but it's kind of thinking about
things.

333
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:27,640
And I, and I just had this
impression this, this, like I

334
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,360
said, like a Daydream and I, I
just envisioned the savior

335
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:36,040
coming down the second coming
and saying, did not my, my

336
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,280
servant Joseph teach us?
And so just like he does with

337
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:45,640
Nephi, where is it written?
And I thought if he did that, we

338
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,800
don't have any answer as a group
of people.

339
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,560
We could not point to a source
where we said, oh, well, if

340
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,120
Joseph taught it, we know where
to find it.

341
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,440
It's in this book.
We don't have that.

342
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:03,840
You know, if he said, did I not
teach my servant Joseph the

343
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,800
proper way to dedicate a house
if it's got evil spirits in it?

344
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,080
If we came and told you that,
said, Dave, where do you find

345
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,640
that before this book?
You'd be like, I don't know.

346
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,160
Where is it?
And I thought about this on

347
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,640
multiple issues.
And, and you know, we, I think

348
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,560
it's a pretty poor statement of
Mormonism that here we are

349
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,000
nearly 200 years from the
martyrdom and we don't even have

350
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,560
a comprehensive source of his
teachings.

351
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,880
We've got comprehensive
discourses of Brigham Young, but

352
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,840
we don't have comprehensive
discourses of Joseph.

353
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,520
We just have, you know, the
official TPGS, which frankly is

354
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,000
missing a lot of material, tons,
thousands of pages of material,

355
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,560
and it's been changed and
altered from the original.

356
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,360
So why is this resource not
there?

357
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,400
And as soon as I got on that
train of thought, I thought, all

358
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,680
right, I, I know this, I, I, I
want this book and I want to

359
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,840
read it.
And so now I've got to write it.

360
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:09,200
Let me ask you this question.
I got a couple of questions for

361
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,080
you, then we'll dive into the
book a little bit.

362
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,520
Why is it you don't think we
have nearly the sources on

363
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,800
Joseph that we do on Brigham?
Now obviously Brigham had a lot

364
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:25,320
more time to talk and get get
wrote down, so to speak, right?

365
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,880
But Joseph, we have surprisingly
little in just as you were

366
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,760
moving to.
Why is that?

367
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,080
Oh that's a really good
question.

368
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:36,680
I think there are about 3 or 4
answers.

369
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,200
One is I don't think they had a
good stenographer.

370
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,840
Joseph's time, you know,
Brigham's time, they've got a

371
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,040
couple people that can do
shorthand, they can do

372
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,280
stenography and they're pretty
talented at it.

373
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,480
In Joseph's time, you know, we
don't have anybody like that.

374
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,640
We don't have anybody that's
regularly keeping track of

375
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,360
Joseph's talks.
That's that's reason one.

376
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,440
And what, what talks we do have
are usually a compilation of two

377
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,520
or four sources, you know, 2-3
or four sources of different

378
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,120
journals that people have
written.

379
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:13,880
And, you know, maybe somebody
gave it a, a certain account and

380
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,480
took really good notes and they
amalgamated them.

381
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,720
And that's the TP Jess.
Rarely do we actually have a

382
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,640
sermon word for word of what he
spoke.

383
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,920
It just pretty much doesn't
exist.

384
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,480
So that's the reason.
Number one reason #2 is Joseph

385
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,440
didn't give public discourses on
a, on a good tight schedule.

386
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,000
And you know it.
There's there are several

387
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,040
accounts that I found even in
this book where people said,

388
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,400
Joseph, we've got 20 people
here.

389
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,000
That's enough for a meeting.
Teach us something, you know, or

390
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,000
the brethren be out in the
field.

391
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,320
They'd be Joseph teach us.
And so he'd just start teaching

392
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,920
them while they're working.
And, you know, the people would

393
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,600
go home that night.
They'd write down what he

394
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,360
thought.
But, you know, there might be 30

395
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:57,440
people who were listening and he
was giving a talk to all these

396
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,480
brethren, but it wasn't a formal
talk.

397
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,560
And, and, you know, sometimes he
would show up in town and, and

398
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,200
they would just be Joseph.
These people just showed up.

399
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,640
They want to hear the gospel.
He'd be like, all right.

400
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,720
And so he'd just start preaching
to them.

401
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,680
Wasn't prepared.
He didn't have any plan.

402
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,320
Not tomorrow at 7:00, I'm going
to go give a talk.

403
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,680
He just ended up talking kind of
spontaneously.

404
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,480
And, you know, as far as I can
tell from the record, that

405
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,480
happened quite a lot.
I, I was really surprised as I

406
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,160
looked into what was happening
or what was being recorded then

407
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,640
that was pretty frequent, you
know, so he, he didn't have

408
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,480
somebody say, you know, come
along with me and be my scribe.

409
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,000
He just started giving a talk
and, and off they went.

410
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,520
So I, I think that's another
major reason.

411
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,160
And the third reason is
actually, I'll, I'll read a

412
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,200
quote to answer it because I
think it really addresses the

413
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,760
issue very succinctly.
Both of these are from Oliver B

414
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,200
Huntington.
They're both in the book and the

415
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,480
one is kind of famous.
So I'll I'll address that in a

416
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,320
second.
But he says I write this journal

417
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,680
to comply with a requirement OFT
repeated by the Prophet Joseph

418
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,320
that every man should keep a
journal.

419
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,000
He'll say, well, that doesn't
tell me a whole lot.

420
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,640
This next entry does Joseph
taught your journals will be

421
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,880
sought after is history and
scripture.

422
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,280
That's the way the New Testament
came.

423
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,440
What we have of it though, much
of the matter was written by the

424
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,400
apostles from their memory of
what had been done because they

425
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,600
were not prompt in keeping their
journals.

426
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,800
OK, I told you that was kind of
a famous quote because it showed

427
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,640
up in the Young Women's Journal
over a four year period 8 times.

428
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,840
It was quoted again and again
and again.

429
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,720
And I think this is fascinating
and I, I wanna give both sides

430
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,120
of the arguments there.
You could say at one, at one

431
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,840
point, OK, that's what the TPGS
came from.

432
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,920
So it's, we count that as
scripture.

433
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,400
I mean, not everybody does, but
I, I think if we call it

434
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,840
Scripture, not most everybody
who's fundamentalist accepts it

435
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:09,680
quote as scripture pretty close
in as far as it was translated

436
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:15,120
correctly or whatever.
But but I, I think it extends

437
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:16,840
far beyond this.
The teachings of the Prophet

438
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,920
Joseph Smith, that's never been
canonized.

439
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,280
It's not formally scripture, but
Joseph, I don't think really

440
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,120
cared that much about formalized
canonization anyway.

441
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:27,840
It was it was that was a
formality.

442
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:29,960
And I don't think that's what he
meant.

443
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,480
I think what he meant was they
they need to know where doctrine

444
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,360
is and they're going to find it
in the journals.

445
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:41,400
And moreover, he told people he
taught people in private things

446
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,680
he was unwilling to teach in
public.

447
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,560
I've got roughly 35 quotes,
maybe 40I.

448
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,880
I honestly don't know for sure.
Quotes of of accounts of Joseph

449
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,160
saying.
I'm so frustrated.

450
00:25:56,360 --> 00:26:00,320
I want to teach the people more,
but they're not ready, they're

451
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,960
not listening, They're not able
to get past their traditions.

452
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:06,280
They're stuck on their ideas of
things.

453
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,320
And they can't just receive
truth.

454
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,680
And he was super frustrated
about it.

455
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,760
We've got several accounts
talking about is it like an iron

456
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,880
cage?
And then he felt squished.

457
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,560
He was constricted.
You know, it was, you know, the,

458
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,360
the famous quote about the
hemlock knot and the, the dodge

459
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,800
for beetle and cornbread for
dodge and watermelon for beetle

460
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,120
and all these quotes over and
over again.

461
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:29,720
He's just lamenting and super
frustrated.

462
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,000
And so I believe what was going
on.

463
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,320
It said it off, repeated.
Every man should keep a journal.

464
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,760
And then he's told them you need
to keep a journal because people

465
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,960
are gonna search it for history,
which happens all the time.

466
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,080
No, no controversy there.
But also for Scripture, because

467
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,160
some people are looking at the
church narrative and saying this

468
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,440
isn't all the truth.
This, this is not everything.

469
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,200
There's more to this and we want
more.

470
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,320
We're ready for more.
And where do we find it?

471
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,880
We find it in the journals and
the Mars, that's where we find

472
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,280
it.
And, and some of it granted.

473
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,160
Yeah, some of that is, you know,
Joseph's preaching to people on

474
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,680
the moon.
And some of that is, you know,

475
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,680
really heart warming, clear,
strong doctrinal advice he's

476
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,840
giving people going through
difficult circumstances.

477
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,640
So I think we get it all in, in,
in these accounts.

478
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,280
And I'm by no means saying it's
exhaustive.

479
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,880
I, I honestly think that I could
keep searching daily for four or

480
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,760
five more months and every day
find something new is I'm

481
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,240
searching the Internet for
difficult or rare, hard to find

482
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,120
doctrines and, you know, reading
extra journals or dialogue or,

483
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,720
you know, with all these, all
these random articles that

484
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,320
people write and they find this
rare journal that came from

485
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,160
their friend who happened to be
on involved in the subject.

486
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,440
And nobody else has ever had
access to it before.

487
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,520
You know what I mean?
There's just, there are all

488
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,280
these rare sources that you can
keep finding, but you have to

489
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,200
read the entire database of
Mormon literature to find them.

490
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,320
And at some point I just had to
stop and say, this is, this is

491
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,920
pretty much all I'm gonna find
in a reasonable amount of time.

492
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,240
I spent literally 7 full time
months preparing this book,

493
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,560
working on it, preparing it.
And you know, I'm, I'm sure I

494
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,560
can do that again for the next
two volumes.

495
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,960
And it's, it's still, you're in
a never ending vortex.

496
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,160
You're just never going to get
all of it.

497
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,160
So the best you can do is just
document everything that you've

498
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,000
done, have it easily to easily
research.

499
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,160
So I can check and see if I've
got that quote or if there's

500
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,800
another version of the quote and
then go from there.

501
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,400
Which, by the way, I'll I'll add
something to this is something

502
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,480
else I did to help me create the
book, But that is a is a is a

503
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,560
great benefit for any of the
readers.

504
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,240
And I will say to anybody who
wants to buy the book, the

505
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,840
version of the book is not as
good as my personal version.

506
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,840
But those who subscribe to my
newsletter on sub stack, I give

507
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,880
the full beefy, perfect,
awesome, you know, in progress

508
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,600
still, but a lot, lot more
information on version and

509
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:07,760
that's this.
So I did a chart.

510
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,720
I compared the source of the
TPGS, which is usually church

511
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,800
history in the chart and and
then the TPGS and then the WBGS

512
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,160
so that you can page for page
look and compare where to find

513
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,520
different discourses.
And these are all organized by

514
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,400
the date of the discourses that
we know Joseph gave.

515
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,920
So most of my book is not trying
to identify here's a formal

516
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,560
discourse Joseph gave in public.
I, I frankly don't care about

517
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,280
that so much.
That's important and I'm

518
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,080
grateful for the resource.
The WJS does that from the

519
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,280
Nauvoo period and it's one of my
favorite books and I admire Ehad

520
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,760
Cook for making it, but that's
not what I'm doing here.

521
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,960
So, but that said, sometimes,
Dang, it's like that sounds

522
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,920
like, you know, the, the Elijah
discourse he was given.

523
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:04,240
I wonder if that's the date, you
know, the, the, the, the, if

524
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,240
this is another account of that
and it's just not dated

525
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,120
properly.
So I, I, I do cross references

526
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,240
and stuff with the index to make
it so you can compare those.

527
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,640
But in the chart, when I found
something that I absolutely

528
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,480
know, this was this date, this
is, you know, the, the discourse

529
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,680
that they're referring to, Then
I add that to the chart.

530
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,920
So not only do you have the,
the, the church history and the

531
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,000
TPGS and the WGS all cross
referenced, but now you have

532
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:36,160
George Lob's account and Eliza R
Snow's account and Allen

533
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,720
Babbitt's account or whatever
all also listed.

534
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,600
So that you can then go to that
account, read it in the WJSTPJS

535
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,400
and think, now you can go to my
book and you can find three

536
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,640
other accounts that teach the
same discourse.

537
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,640
So they were not contemporaneous
writings in all instances.

538
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,880
And so some of those would not
have been included in the WHS

539
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,720
anyway.
But now you can find them there.

540
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,160
And, you know, as I move along,
I'll continue to improve upon

541
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,000
and perfect that chart.
It also has other dates and,

542
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,200
and, you know, stuff with it
that to make it more useful.

543
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,920
But that's the basic gist of it.
I do a free PDF version of that

544
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,360
to anybody who subscribes to my
newsletter.

545
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,880
That's a free subscription.
So it doesn't cost anything.

546
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,360
It's just trying to, you know,
bless people to get the

547
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,680
information out there.
And frankly, the chart was just

548
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,760
too beefy for my book.
I'd have to have it 8 1/2 by 11

549
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,440
to really pull, pull it off.
And I thought about doing that.

550
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,800
I prepared to do that, but for
logistical reasons I didn't do

551
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,680
that.
And so anyway, so that that's

552
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,520
there's that.
Wow.

553
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,840
Dude, that's good stuff.
I would imagine that every book

554
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,280
present its own presents its own
separate challenges in getting

555
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,320
it wrote right.
What was this one's big

556
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,040
challenge?
What was the big hurdle you had

557
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,240
to overcome on this one?
You know, I that's a good

558
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:03,880
question too.
There are two things.

559
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,720
One, I think I discovered on
this that writing 1000 pages of

560
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,000
book is about 10 times harder
than writing 2500 page books.

561
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,200
Really it, I had to keep track
of so much more information in

562
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,640
my head.
And frankly, I'm sure if I sat

563
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,520
down with, if I, if I had a hard
copy, which I never printed a

564
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:28,280
hard copy to work from, which is
not my normal modus operandi,

565
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,120
but just what happened this
time?

566
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,920
If I sat down with a hard copy
and started cross referencing

567
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,520
and using the index and, and
doing all that sort of stuff, I

568
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,960
bet you I would add a boatload
of cross references in my

569
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,320
topical tags and that sort of
thing because there's just so

570
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,280
much material to try and keep
straight in my head.

571
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:52,200
OK, what was the date where he
talks about the, the, the three

572
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,120
spirits of Elias, Elijah and
Messiah?

573
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,200
Was, was, was that March 10th?
Was that April 7th?

574
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,800
Dang it, I can't remember,
right.

575
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,720
Just little details like that
bog you down.

576
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:02,840
So you got to look it up.
You got to have.

577
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,600
That's why I made the chart.
When was King Fall at Discourse?

578
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,120
Was that April 7?
April 10?

579
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,880
Dang, you can't remember so I
have to look it up.

580
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,400
But then on top of that, you've
got hundreds of topics that

581
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,480
you're trying to keep track of
so you can cross rest or

582
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,440
reference all of them without
using the index.

583
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,800
Because I haven't created it yet
because I haven't finished the

584
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,320
book.
That gets complicated, man.

585
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:25,880
There's a lot of stuff to keep
track of.

586
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,160
So that was #1 it was just, it's
just big and it, it's, it's a

587
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,000
lot of extra work just because
of that.

588
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:38,120
That surprised me.
The, the number two thing was it

589
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,720
was really difficult to know how
to stop and when to stop.

590
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,680
I felt like I could keep going.
And, and I knew that when I

591
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,760
first started it, like I wrote
the introduction to it, part of

592
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,320
it like four years ago or
something, when I was just

593
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,720
starting this project, knowing
what my limitations would be and

594
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,240
what I'd have to accept moving
into it 'cause otherwise you,

595
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,160
you get lost in, I don't know
what to do with the next stage

596
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,240
of it.
So it's kind of like prepping

597
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,920
for it, you know, So I write
introductions to my books,

598
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,120
prepping myself to know what are
my limitations, What am I going

599
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,560
to do?
And I knew I'm never gonna have

600
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,679
everything.
There's no way I'm ever gonna

601
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,159
get everything in the first
volume, you know, even though

602
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,080
it's 1000 pages.
And it sounds like that just

603
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,360
should have everything.
I know it's not.

604
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,880
And so, but then, you know, I
would be like, I'll give you an

605
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,239
instance.
I was, I was doing cross

606
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,000
references for the story of the
Angel with the drawn sword,

607
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,239
right.
The Angel comes to Joseph

608
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,679
somewhere in 1834, talks to him,
tells him he's gonna live for

609
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,000
marriage, he's gonna be in
trouble.

610
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,400
Angel comes up, comes again like
three times, I think.

611
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:48,000
And then 1842 comes to him last
time, says you better teach us

612
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,080
or else.
And there's actually some

613
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,400
fascinating details that you put
it all together that gets out of

614
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,480
that.
So I was looking that trying to

615
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,200
make sure I had everything.
And I discovered Brian Hales had

616
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,080
done a paper on it.
And it was like, Oh my gosh, you

617
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,240
know, he's got to have some
references I don't have, you

618
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,840
know, because this is a really
narrow niche and you're not

619
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,320
going to publish a narrow niche
like that unless you really push

620
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,200
it.
And so I looked up and sure

621
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,640
enough, he had some some
references I didn't have.

622
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,000
And I was like, sweet.
So I added to them, right.

623
00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:22,720
But when do you stop?
I thought there were, you know,

624
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:26,680
maybe a handful of quotes about
the Constitution hanging by a

625
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,120
thread.
No, I've got maybe 20, maybe

626
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,640
even 30 quotes about that.
But, you know, do I go online

627
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,880
and search for more?
And when, when do I quit?

628
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,720
You know, when do I say, OK, if
I ever find that, it'll be

629
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:45,080
volume or second edition.
That's, that's really hard for

630
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,240
me.
I, I tend to be OCDI want to

631
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:49,640
double check everything.
I want to triple check things.

632
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,040
Some things I can't do that
didn't don't have access, you

633
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,760
know?
And So what do you do?

634
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,560
You know, you just cite this guy
said so and quoted it in his

635
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,160
book.
And like, I'm just gonna trust

636
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,360
it because it's in a family
heirloom safe that they keep to

637
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,880
the family.
It's not in the library.

638
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,360
I can go check out.
So I just hope it's right.

639
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,320
You know, sometimes you have to
make decisions and that one's

640
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,240
relatively easy.
But when do you stop looking for

641
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:21,000
quotes about, you know, the word
of wisdom was specifically

642
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,960
referring to coffee?
OK, I've got two that I know say

643
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,840
that, but maybe there are five.
Do I look up for articles on

644
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,840
that issue?
Do I do Reddit threads and then

645
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,480
quadruple check their stuff
because people just put crap up

646
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,840
there?
You know, that's that's where it

647
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,480
gets complicated when when
you're doing kind of more modern

648
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,440
research and you know, you can
find stuff, but then you can't

649
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,760
find the source for it.
But then you've got this quote

650
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,760
that maybe is not reliable.
Do you include it or not?

651
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,320
You know, those those were the
harder the the harder questions

652
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,520
for me to to deal with for this
book.

653
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,120
Gotcha.
True.

654
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,800
Dude, that was a Herculean
undertaking that you that you

655
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,480
did there.
I mean, that's a lot of work.

656
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,520
Yeah, I, I, I, I felt kind of
overwhelmed for about four

657
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,240
months.
I thought I would have it done.

658
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,520
I thought I would have it done a
couple months before I actually

659
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,880
finished it and was really upset
at myself that I was slower.

660
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,840
And I, yeah, it, it kind of
messed up my finances because I,

661
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,200
I was relying on some pre sales
to make that happen or to, to,

662
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,400
you know, fund what I was doing.
And so being late, I was just

663
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,320
pushing to try and get that
done.

664
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,080
But then the pre sale didn't
happen like it was planned and I

665
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:38,840
ended up kind of biting the
bullet a little bit.

666
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,640
So yeah, it was, it was, it was
a little bit tricky.

667
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,720
I almost like it.
And then you know.

668
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,120
Oh, go ahead.
I was gonna say, but then you

669
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,640
know, people, people will, you
know, you do posts and you say

670
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,160
it's on sale here.
It's on sale here.

671
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,080
This is where you can get a
copy.

672
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,760
And they're like, you know,
you're trying to get paid for

673
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,600
writing works of God.
Like, am I the only one that

674
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,000
writes books that expects that
people buy the book?

675
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,760
I mean, where do these comments
come from?

676
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,600
You're like, if you work for
seven months straight, would you

677
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,920
like just assume that you know
you're not gonna get paid

678
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,920
anything for the labor?
Weird.

679
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:19,680
Crazy.
Don't listen to that.

680
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,880
I've had to deal with don't,
don't even listen to that.

681
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,800
It's not even worth, it's not
even worth listening to.

682
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,680
Look, I'll be honest with you,
typically, unless it's something

683
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:37,280
very egregious, typically, dude,
my MO is to post and ghost

684
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,320
'cause look, only one of two
things are gonna happen and

685
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,600
they're both bad.
Either people are gonna tell you

686
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,960
how great you are and nobody
needs that ego bump, right, or

687
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,040
you're gonna get wrapped up in
arguing with an idiot in his

688
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,760
mom's basement who doesn't have
a time job.

689
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,880
So it's it's just not worth it.
So yeah, no, dude, don't, don't

690
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,520
even read that stuff.
It's not worth it at all.

691
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,120
But dude, I, I'm super excited
to get my hands on this one.

692
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,240
So as we talked about this this
episode here, we talked about

693
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:13,160
maybe just looking at a few of
the the things that you think

694
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,520
are kind of maybe highlights or
or something like that.

695
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:18,920
So what?
What do you got behind there?

696
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,920
OK, I, I probably prepared too
much of that, but I'll, I'll

697
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,680
share a couple of things to
start off with.

698
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,840
One, one I, I put in my
introduction and I, and I

699
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:37,680
particularly like this specific
quote because it went to the

700
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,760
question of what do I include in
the book?

701
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,880
And it also went to the, the
very heart of who Joseph was.

702
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,560
So this is from the journal of
Andrew Workman, who if you ask

703
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,560
me who's that?
I'd say, I don't know, it's just

704
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,280
some guy, but this is what he
says.

705
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,200
I was at Joseph's house.
He was there and several men

706
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,520
were sitting on the fence.
Joseph came out and spoke to us

707
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,360
all pretty soon.
And by the way, this was a

708
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,720
pretty common thing.
Some of the workers would say

709
00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:07,360
that they would just show up at
Joseph's house and sit on the

710
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:08,920
fence and hope he'd come out and
teach him.

711
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,640
And so, you know, every once in
a while it happened.

712
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,040
Pretty soon a man came up and
said that poor brother who lived

713
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,960
out some distance from town, it
had his house burned down the

714
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,760
night before.
Nearly all the men said they

715
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,520
felt sorry for the man.
Joseph put his hand in his

716
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:30,600
pocket, took $5 out and said, I
feel sorry for this brother in

717
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,080
the amount of $5.00.
How much do you feel sorry?

718
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,720
So love that quote.
Such a good, good quote, but it

719
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:42,600
really goes to the heart of who
Joseph was.

720
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,760
And, you know, and I don't, I
don't remember, I've got a

721
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,160
footnote that says, but I think
that's something like 135 or

722
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,680
$235 in today's coin, something
like that.

723
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,520
So, you know, I mean, if that's
what was in his pocket, it's,

724
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,600
it's not like he was saying this
is all I'm willing to do or, you

725
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,040
know, I've calculated this
carefully and thought about it.

726
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,960
He just says, you know, look,
it's, it's great to have

727
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,760
thoughts and feelings, but who's
gonna help him?

728
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,160
What are we gonna do to help
him?

729
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:12,800
The, the only thing that's
really gonna help us rather it's

730
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:14,760
money.
So get, get your money out of

731
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,960
your pockets and quit gossiping
and, you know, do something

732
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,760
about it.
So I really love that it's, you

733
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,560
know, do you include that in, in
the teachings of the Prophet

734
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,160
Joseph Smith?
You know, it's not a discourse,

735
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,240
it's not a formal talk.
It's not a sermon, but it sure

736
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:36,600
as heck is a teaching.
And if I'm, if I'm looking at

737
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,800
the situation, saying what can I
learn from this?

738
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,960
You know, I, I think there's a
profound lesson there that's

739
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,240
easy to forget about And it's a
good reminder.

740
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,680
You know, sometimes we do that.
Oh, for our brothers.

741
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,120
So and so man, daughter's in the
hospital again.

742
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,000
That must be rough.
So did you been loan some money

743
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,760
or you just feel sorry for him?
Anyway, so I love that quote.

744
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,440
You had you had a thought there
something.

745
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:08,160
Yeah, it it's those, it's those
personal accounts that I think

746
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,480
are every bit as important as
some of the stuff that Joseph

747
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,040
actually quote preaches, right.
Because.

748
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:20,640
Yeah, because here we have, we
have an opportunity to see the

749
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,240
guy who's talking about the
religion living the religion,

750
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,960
right.
And it's always a certain

751
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,200
gravity that is added to the
messenger's message when you

752
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,480
know that he abides the same
message.

753
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,000
Yeah, not to.
Say that.

754
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:42,240
Joseph was perfect, but but we
get a rare glimpse into how the

755
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:48,520
man actually conducted himself
and that speaks as much as the

756
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,520
things that he he he gave
discourses on.

757
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,760
Yeah, exactly.
It's like the story, and that's

758
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,880
also my book, of where Anthony
is selling alcoholic beverages

759
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,320
on Sunday and he gets fined and
they bring Joseph in about it.

760
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,120
And he says, well, I'm sorry,
you broke the line.

761
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,680
And then you're gonna, you're
gonna have to accept the fine,

762
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,120
which was pretty hefty.
But then the next day he shows

763
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,320
up to Anthony and gives him a
really big horse worth quite a

764
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,520
bit and says sell this horse.
And, and you know, 'cause

765
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,160
Anthony was trying to get his
son out of slavery, he's trying

766
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,600
to buy his freedom.
So Joseph gives him his horse so

767
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,680
he can get his son out of
freedom and pay the fine for

768
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,400
selling alcohol on Sunday.
That says a lot about him, too.

769
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,880
There's a similar account where
these these guys are coming in

770
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,640
from out of town.
Their brother joined the church.

771
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,920
They're not in the church.
And they need some money.

772
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,920
They need, you know, they're
they've traveled far and wide

773
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,240
and now they need to get a job
and get started.

774
00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:48,680
And they said, well, let's ask
brother Joseph if he's got a job

775
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,920
for us.
And so they went to him.

776
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:52,960
He said, can you, can you dig a
ditch?

777
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,040
And they said, yeah.
He said, can you dig it

778
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,400
straight?
And they said, yeah, so he went

779
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,120
out and he showed him what he
wanted, got a line and chalk and

780
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,120
all that sort of stuff to show
him how he wanted it done.

781
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,920
And then he came back at the end
of the day and said, boys, you

782
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,880
did just as good a job as I
would have done.

783
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,640
Let's get you paid.
So he took him to the store and

784
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,280
said, you know, pick out, pick
out whatever ham you want and

785
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:19,360
whatever, 25 bag of meal.
And, you know, it's not fair.

786
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,760
And they said, absolutely.
And one of the guys writing in

787
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,720
his journal is saying it was
very generous.

788
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:26,840
It was more than I expected, you
know, but then he said, but I

789
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,600
can't hardly choose brother
Joseph.

790
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,000
So he says Joseph went, grabbed
the biggest, nicest hams, one

791
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,960
for each of them and gave it to
him and then gave him their 2550

792
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,600
bag pound of flour, whatever it
was that they earned and sent

793
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,480
them on their way.
And they, they just felt it was

794
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:45,000
super gracious and well, that's
kind of a consistent behavior we

795
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,280
see with him.
He also at one point that there

796
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,720
was some brother working on the
temple and that that they were

797
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:53,360
behind paying some of the temple
debt.

798
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,320
And, you know, part of that's
because somebody had been

799
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,840
collecting temple monies who
wasn't giving it to the temple

800
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,480
committee.
And I, I never have tracked that

801
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:03,760
down.
I didn't look to track it down,

802
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,080
but I just know that was
happening.

803
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,080
And Joseph, you know, said only
give it to the 12.

804
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,640
They're the trustworthy people
and let's get this done.

805
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,080
But somebody hadn't done that.
And he said, if any of you are

806
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,440
tired or hungry, come to me and
I'll feed you and give you

807
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,600
housing.
But we're doing the best we can.

808
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,280
If you're gonna complain about
it at all, Basically beat you

809
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,000
up.
He threatened that on occasion

810
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,840
to a number of people.
So that's kind of a funny

811
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,040
contrasting thing.
But he didn't like people that

812
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,200
were ungrateful.
OK, so here's another one there.

813
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,600
There.
There's a series of these.

814
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,360
I've got four of them.
Well, no, I take it back.

815
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,600
There's just three ones just
kind of long that that I think

816
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,320
are really interesting.
I've I've had a lot of

817
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,760
experiences talking to people
who have had experiences with

818
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,720
these things, but we don't talk
about a church fundamentalist,

819
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:57,560
maybe talk about it more
mainstreamers.

820
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,680
But you know, we talk about
doing a dedication for house.

821
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,320
We just kind of say a prayer and
it's good.

822
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,440
That's it, that's all.
But you know, it doesn't always

823
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,960
work that smoothly.
And, and so there are a couple

824
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,480
quotes that talk about that that
I wanted to address.

825
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:16,760
One of them is not specifically
on that topic, but is an issue

826
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,480
of discernment.
When I'm reading these things,

827
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,720
it doesn't say Joseph said this,
Joseph said that all the time.

828
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:24,320
I've cut those down to try and
make them shorter, but it's

829
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,720
always Joseph speaking.
When you have a dream that

830
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:29,800
troubles you, you may know it is
from evil spirits.

831
00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:33,120
Be careful of your health and do
not do too much hard work.

832
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,800
So that's just a little quick
thing of Joseph saying, look,

833
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,720
I'm trying to help you discern
and to recognize when there are

834
00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:43,640
bad spirits around.
And we sometimes think, Oh,

835
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,560
well, it's got to be somebody
getting thrown across the room

836
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,360
or, you know, some nasty thing
happening or whatever.

837
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,440
And he's saying, no, It's these
simple things.

838
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,120
He taught on an A number of
occasions the more evil spirits

839
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,400
around than there are Mormons.
And and so we should expect our

840
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,960
fair share.
OK, so here's George Q Cannon.

841
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,680
I have no doubt that many.
Sorry, it's George Q Cannon.

842
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,880
When I say the word, that's not
who's talking.

843
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,960
That's who's recording Joseph.
I have no doubt that many of the

844
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,040
brother and sisters have
sensibly felt in various places

845
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,400
and at various time, evil
influences around them.

846
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,120
Those he says sensibly felt.
This is like a visceral thing,

847
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:23,640
right?
It's not just a discernment

848
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,520
issue.
Brother Joseph gave an

849
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,120
explanation of this.
There are places in the

850
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,360
Mississippi Valley where the
influence or the presence of

851
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,440
invisible spirits are very
perceptibly felt, he said.

852
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,280
Numbers had been slain there in
war, and there were evil

853
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,400
influences or spirits which
affect the spirits of those who

854
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,240
have tabernacles on earth,
George Cacanan says.

855
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:46,680
I myself have felt those
influences in other places

856
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:48,600
besides the continent of
America.

857
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:53,000
I felt them on battle grounds as
the Sandwich Islands, which is

858
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,160
Hawaii.
This is Oliver B Huntington,

859
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,360
he's the same one said the
journals will be sought after

860
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,240
for doctrine.
On an occasion when I was a boy,

861
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,000
sorry I heard Joseph say,
speaking with regard to moving

862
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,920
into old houses that other
people had lived in, that had

863
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,480
been inhabited by wicked people.
They leave spirits in the house

864
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,160
like unto themselves.
And as the wicked are always

865
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,680
opposed to God and the good, we
ought to dispossess the spirits

866
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,880
of wicked persons before we move
into their haunts, or else they

867
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,360
will try and kill the most
innocent pure.

868
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,960
Now you can read that and say,
oh, that's sounding Yamadyville

869
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:31,920
Horror esque.
And you know, this is getting a

870
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,320
little bit silly, but I'm gonna
read another account where he's

871
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,640
actually saying that evil
spirits have the power given to

872
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,680
them to make us ill and have
illness to death.

873
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,400
One occasion I'll mention, and I
didn't pull this quote.

874
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:47,680
I wish I would have now that I
thought about it.

875
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,960
But one occasion he had, I think
he adopted a boy or something,

876
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,240
he had a lot of people stay in
his house for short periods of

877
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:59,480
time or sometimes for months.
And there's a small child and it

878
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:00,800
got sick.
So he came in and gave it a

879
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,240
blessing and immediately was
healed.

880
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,680
He went outside and the child
was immediately sick again.

881
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,200
And so they called Joseph in and
he's like, he was fine just a

882
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,160
minute ago.
Goes back in, the kids got a

883
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,760
fever, he's having a hard time,
he's super sick, heals the child

884
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,480
again and he goes back outside
and third time comes back and

885
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:24,480
says, OK, what's going on here?
So he goes and prays and says,

886
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,520
father, what's going on here?
And he said, there's an evil

887
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,640
spirit making this child sick.
So then he rebukes the evil

888
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,280
spirit, casts it out, and then
he heals the child and the child

889
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,840
stays healed.
Interesting story.

890
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,000
OK when wicked.
Oh, go ahead.

891
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,360
Sorry about that.
I thought you were done.

892
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:42,440
Sorry.
Go ahead, Jer.

893
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,120
I was just gonna start another
account that's kind of a similar

894
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:50,240
thing.
So when wicked men and women

895
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:53,360
inhabit a house, invisible
spirits congregate there also

896
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,480
that are the same stamp as the
living.

897
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,280
Kindred spirits mingle together,
and the invisible look on, laugh

898
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,240
at, and enjoy the wicked sports
of the living.

899
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,720
And when the living or people
and bodies move away, the others

900
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,360
often stay in the house, having
required a sort of right of

901
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,400
possession.
And they're the agents by which

902
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,320
others that move in are
afflicted, meaning they are

903
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,080
given sicknesses and illnesses
from those evil spirits.

904
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,840
When the Saints moved to Nauvoo
or Commerce, and it was as it

905
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,440
was then called, it might be
called a deserted town, or

906
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,080
partly so at least is There were
many empty houses, mostly built

907
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,120
of logs, that had stood so long
that the mud had fallen from the

908
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,240
spaces between them.
The Saints, just driven from

909
00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:34,120
Missouri, were glad to get such
shelters.

910
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,200
These old houses could afford,
and they were all soon filled,

911
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,640
sometimes two and three families
in one house.

912
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,080
Some houses had no floors, some
no doors.

913
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,520
Soon the inmates became sick.
Sickness increased, until Joseph

914
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,480
began to be alarmed, and saw
something very unusual in the

915
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,040
new affliction.
He looked into the matter as

916
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,520
only a prophet and Seer could
look.

917
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:56,320
He saw the trouble of where it
came from.

918
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:58,960
Those houses had been dens of
iniquity.

919
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,000
He instituted means to empty
them again by moving the people

920
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,800
into tents and doubling up
families in better houses.

921
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,000
My father's family he took into
his own house and tent.

922
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,720
I once heard him say concerning
houses that have been inhabited

923
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:15,640
by wicked people, that before
the Saints moved in they could

924
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,680
be thoroughly.
They should be thoroughly

925
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,920
cleansed, then fumigated with
brimstone and whitewash.

926
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,640
Afterwards there should be a
season of prayer in the house,

927
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:28,040
and it should be dedicated unto
Lord for the use they designated

928
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,560
it to be used for.
Those old houses had been owned

929
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,920
or occupied by wicked,
unprincipled men, gamblers,

930
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,240
outlaws, licentious robbers,
etcetera, and those that were of

931
00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:41,000
the same stamp had met there for
evil practices and criminal

932
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,880
purposes that were carried on
their orgies.

933
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,080
While this was the past time of
men and women and bodies,

934
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,640
disembodied spirits of the same
ilk stood around in the highest

935
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:52,680
Glee.
In a various way manifested one

936
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,000
another their enjoyment of the
performance of the violist of

937
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,360
sins.
So then he goes on and says,

938
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,720
when the owners or occupants of
the houses were dead, they

939
00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:04,120
enjoyed each other's society
with their new pals in the

940
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,240
spirit state.
And when the righteous took

941
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:09,680
possession of their old houses,
all combined to kill the new

942
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,480
inhabitants.
And hence so much sickness.

943
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,840
For all evil spirits, whether in
the body or out of the body, are

944
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,760
opposed to this work.
And this people and the spirits

945
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,440
in the spirit world have means
by which they can affect people

946
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,160
on earth, and are as diligent
there as here to do good or

947
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,480
evil.
So it goes on and talk about

948
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,960
this.
And they actually had one woman

949
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,840
who could not get rid of the
evil spirit.

950
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,000
They tried all sorts of things.
They couldn't do it.

951
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,760
And finally Joseph got her
convinced to do it.

952
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,000
They had to knock down the roof
because it was illegal to burn

953
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:43,280
with the roof.
And they burned the house down

954
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,520
and made her a new house because
they could not get them to

955
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,000
leave, which I think is a
really, really interesting

956
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,560
commentary on how severe the
problem they had with this.

957
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,480
And, and one final word, and
this is just about evil spirits.

958
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,680
I don't want to spend too much
time on it, but it's one of

959
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,040
those things that they taught
quite a bit and they had to

960
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,840
discern a bit and had to deal
with quite a lot.

961
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,920
Especially we read this in the
early part of the Doctrine

962
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,000
Covenants when Joseph went on a
a visit and when he left, all

963
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,640
sorts of evil spirits started
manifesting.

964
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,560
This again is Oliver B
Huntington recording Joseph

965
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:19,400
Smith talking about evil
spirits.

966
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,800
When I related to Brother Joseph
the view I had of certain evil

967
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,200
spirits in England, meaning of
vision he'd had, he said that

968
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,440
the closer we observe the
celestial law, the more

969
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:34,600
opposition we shall meet.
OK, so the opposition he's

970
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,800
talking about here is
specifically, you know, evil

971
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,400
spirits.
That's what brought up the

972
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,000
topic.
But that again, is one of those

973
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,800
things that sometimes, you know,
I talked to brethren and they're

974
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,360
like, man, I have tried so hard
my whole life to be good.

975
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,520
I've, I've done this, I've done
this, I've tried to teach my

976
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,360
family, go to church, blah,
blah, blah.

977
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:55,720
And I just can't seem to get a
break.

978
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,760
And people are like, man, you
must just be wicked, You know,

979
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,080
then there's something bad
you're doing 'cause you're not

980
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,040
getting blessed to the Lord.
And Oliver B Huntington's

981
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,440
statement is the, the closer you
get to God, the harder the, the

982
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:10,120
opposing forces will be against
you.

983
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,560
And so interesting teaching.
It's not in the TPS.

984
00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:20,680
You know that that last part you
talked about has some pretty far

985
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:29,120
reaching repercussions because
sometimes I think as Mormons we

986
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,560
get this idea like, OK, if we
just live the gospel, if we do

987
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,960
XY and Z, it should be smooth
sailing 'cause I'm doing what

988
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,000
the Lord wants, right?
And so it becomes kind of a

989
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,720
prosperity gospel, right?
So that's that.

990
00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:46,920
If we're not careful and we buy
into that kind of narrative,

991
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:50,600
what we'll see is we'll start to
cast judgment upon our brethren.

992
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,880
It's a sneaky here, right?
We'll say we'll see.

993
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,320
Look, Dave, Dave's over there.
He's, you know, he's not really

994
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,160
burning down, burning up the
world.

995
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,240
You know, he seems to be
struggling a bit financially.

996
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:06,040
He must, he must not have his
house in order, right?

997
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:10,200
He he must, he must be wicked
and or deficient in one of these

998
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,400
areas.
Now, the truth is I'm deficient

999
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,800
in a few areas.
I'm well aware of that, but but

1000
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,280
that's not the point.
The point is, is that's a tool

1001
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:24,720
by which, if you embrace a
prosperity kind of gospel, that

1002
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:28,640
makes it real easy to start
mislabeling people and quite

1003
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:34,600
frankly, judging people in ways
that that aren't so Christ like.

1004
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,360
Yes, yeah, exactly.
I've I've got a a couple quotes

1005
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,440
that address that specifically
as well as a follow up.

1006
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,640
All of these come from John
Taylor who made I think 5

1007
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,600
different records of this topic.
I also mentioned this in my

1008
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,720
introduction as an example, but
without going into the details,

1009
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:55,640
but it's really cool teachings
here.

1010
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,240
The first one I'll read is the
most poignant.

1011
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,480
I heard the Prophet Joseph say
in speaking to the 12 on one

1012
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:05,840
occasion.
You will have all kinds of

1013
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,840
trials to pass through and it is
quite as necessary for you to be

1014
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,080
tried as it was for Abraham and
other men of God.

1015
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,400
And said he, God will feel after
you.

1016
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,440
He will take hold of you and
wrench your very heartstrings.

1017
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,520
And if you cannot stand it, you
will not be fit for an

1018
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:24,400
inheritance in the celestial
Kingdom of God.

1019
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,040
Now that we also find in the
lectures of faith, and it's kind

1020
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,360
of a famous quotation, but he
adds something here.

1021
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,840
Some people have wondered why so
many of the 12 fall away or fell

1022
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,560
away.
God tries people according to

1023
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:42,840
the position they occupy.
So really strong statement there

1024
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,720
that you know, the more
righteous we become, the more

1025
00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:48,920
you'll be tried.
Just like Oliver B Huntington

1026
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:53,280
said a minute ago.
And here's an even more poignant

1027
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:55,400
statement.
This is where there I said there

1028
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,480
are five of these.
The Lord's command to Abraham to

1029
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,640
sacrifice his son Isaac in and
of itself rendered at one of the

1030
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,640
most severe and painful trials
that could be placed upon man.

1031
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,640
So we talked about that.
It's the ultimate sacrifice.

1032
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:09,360
It's called the Abrahamic
sacrifice.

1033
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,600
It's, it's the, the, the, the
standard bearer by which all of

1034
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,120
us are being judged, right?
I mean, he says if you, if you

1035
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,800
want to blessings Abraham, he
has to do the works of Abraham.

1036
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,800
So, you know, he kind of brings
up the standard here in this

1037
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:25,200
discussion.
But then he says this.

1038
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,080
But there was something else
connected with this that was

1039
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,160
explained by the Prophet Joseph,
who when Speaking of these

1040
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,480
things, said God was determined
in these days to have a tried

1041
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,000
people as He had in former
times, and that he would feel

1042
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:42,160
after their heartstrings and try
them in every way possible for

1043
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,400
them to be tried.
And if he could have invented

1044
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:49,040
anything that would have been
more keen, more cute and more

1045
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,760
trying than that which he
required of Abraham, he would

1046
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,440
have done it.
But that no doubt, was one of

1047
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,680
the greatest trials that could
have been inflicted on any human

1048
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:02,120
being.
So I've got three more of those,

1049
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:03,760
and they all have little tiny
nuances.

1050
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,680
But you know that that last
little bit is summarized another

1051
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:10,960
quote.
I'll read it and kind of call

1052
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,680
that quits.
If God had known any other way

1053
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,520
whereby he could have touched
Abraham's feelings more acutely

1054
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,560
and more keenly, he would have
done so.

1055
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:26,720
So you know that that tells us
an awful lot.

1056
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,480
Yeah, it does.
If you're in a position of

1057
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,720
authority, if you're in a
position of leadership, if

1058
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,960
you're in a position of you're
just a Dang good guy and people

1059
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,920
don't appreciate how well you
really live the gospel because

1060
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,480
all Hell's falling around you
and your family's falling apart

1061
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,880
because all hell is beating them
apart and they can't appreciate

1062
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:47,000
it.
Then they can stand and look at

1063
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,160
your house and say, well, maybe
he's actually doing really well.

1064
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,320
Not my spot to judge.
Maybe God's just tearing him to

1065
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,640
pieces because he can take it
and he's gonna earn, you know,

1066
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:03,840
the job award or whatever.
You know, the modern job anyway

1067
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:08,000
does give you a different
perspective and does offer some

1068
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,040
consolation because I, I think
there are a lot of men out there

1069
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,800
and probably women too.
But I, I know men have this

1070
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:19,120
propensity to say, you know, I,
I just feel like I must be

1071
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:23,440
failing God in some way because
just, everything falls apart all

1072
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:25,800
the time and I just can't seem
to get ahead.

1073
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,200
And the more I, the harder I
try, the more things fall apart

1074
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,520
around me.
And gosh, I must be doing

1075
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,960
something wrong.
And, and maybe that's true.

1076
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,560
Only they know, right?
But at some level, if you're one

1077
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,320
of those men, you're sitting
down and you really look deep in

1078
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,720
your heart and you're really
self introspecting and you say,

1079
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:49,040
you know, my heart's only been
for the Zion and to do what's

1080
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:51,600
right.
And if you can honestly truly

1081
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:55,040
say that, you've got a doctrine
here that tells you why.

1082
00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:00,880
And yeah, God's just wanting to
try generation, so that's super

1083
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,320
cool.
Can I share one other set?

1084
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,240
Yeah, Yep.
OK, great.

1085
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:12,640
I have on my mission, and I'm
gonna tell you the story because

1086
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:17,680
I, I, I spent the greater part
of almost 30 years hunting down

1087
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:18,120
the coal.
True.

1088
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,200
Does this have to do with the
the previous subject we were

1089
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,680
talking about?
Ish.

1090
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:25,720
Yeah.
And it's a, it's a follow up on

1091
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:27,920
it, but we could, we could, you
could hold off for a second.

1092
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,280
Yeah, before we move on to that,
let me say this.

1093
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,040
For so long, that was one of the
things when I was in the LDS

1094
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:42,600
Church that really perplexed me.
Right, Joseph, the the theology

1095
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:47,120
that Joseph reveals from the
Lord is one in which there is a

1096
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:51,360
great struggle that continues
right between light and dark.

1097
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:58,080
And my time in the LDS church,
it felt more like a traditional

1098
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,240
and, and this isn't a slam on
Protestantism, but it film felt

1099
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:05,120
more like a Protestant kind of
church when it came to, to

1100
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,920
talking about that kind of of
spiritual warfare, I guess, for

1101
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,920
lack of a better term.
And and the answer always was,

1102
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:15,320
did Joseph not have anything to
say about this?

1103
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,200
I mean, are, if we're living
right, are these things that

1104
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:22,960
just don't happen to us?
And, you know, I, I have seen

1105
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,680
certain members who have
struggled with something like

1106
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,440
that.
And what ends up happening is,

1107
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:33,200
is, is the, the, the cloud and
dispersion is usually put over

1108
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,920
those folks, right?
Like, what'd you do to invite

1109
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,320
this in?
What did you do to 'cause this?

1110
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:43,320
And here Joseph's saying, look,
this is this is kind of the

1111
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,960
price of admission, right?
If you're gonna, if you're gonna

1112
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,560
set your hand to something
light, you can bet that you're

1113
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,760
going to struggle against
something that's dark.

1114
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:55,240
And the fact that Joseph kind of
illustrates us and then not just

1115
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,760
illustrates us, but shows us how
to deal with it, that's pretty

1116
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:00,480
cool.
And that's something that I feel

1117
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,080
like has been missing from
Mormonism for a long time.

1118
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:12,800
Yeah, Yeah, I think there are,
there are certain, there's

1119
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,640
certain doctrines that haven't
been emphasized for a very long

1120
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,880
time.
And one of them is what I was

1121
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:22,800
about to talk about.
And I think it's, it's because

1122
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:29,160
it, it empowers the individual
too much and makes it difficult

1123
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:36,880
to have a strong hierarchy of
leadership, which I don't think

1124
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,400
Joseph really intended to have
other than in, in certain

1125
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:49,520
administrative ways.
So, so I, I, and I think in a

1126
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:54,080
situation like that, you know,
it's very easy, easy to

1127
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,200
blackball somebody and give them
the scarlet letter and say, this

1128
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:00,440
brother's got so many trials, he
must be wicked.

1129
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:04,800
So take what he says with grain
salt and boom, he has no

1130
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:09,840
credibility anymore.
When really, you know, sometimes

1131
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,440
that might be the person that
first of all, that that's the

1132
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:16,920
person that needs you to come
show up at your door and, you

1133
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:18,880
know, bring a little bit of
healthy food and say, hey

1134
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:22,160
brother, I know, you know,
you've had a lot of challenges,

1135
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,080
just brought over some food and
if you need it here, let me

1136
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:26,800
know.
You know, that's, that's the guy

1137
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,520
who really needs that and he's
not getting it 'cause he must be

1138
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,200
doing something wicked.
So I think that's the deficit.

1139
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,440
It keeps us from doing some of
those things that we, we ought

1140
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,960
to be doing.
This other doctrine I think is

1141
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:45,000
really similar.
And I learned it in the mission

1142
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,240
field and I, I read it with my
own eyes.

1143
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,840
So I know that I saw the quote
somewhere, but I've never been

1144
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:56,720
able to find it since.
And I've asked several quorums,

1145
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:58,480
you know, when I've gone to
different branches and said,

1146
01:03:58,480 --> 01:03:59,760
Hey, has anybody ever heard this
quote?

1147
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,000
And I've met somebody that said,
yes, that same thing.

1148
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,160
I've been looking for that quote
for like 20 years and I haven't

1149
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,200
been able to find it.
And, and I still never found it,

1150
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,280
but I kind of did.
So here's what the quote said,

1151
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:15,240
if you will follow the first
impressions that you have of the

1152
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,360
Spirit 9 times out of the 10.
So, so the first impressions

1153
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:22,200
that you receive, you're like
asking for impression 9 times

1154
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:23,680
out of 10.
That will be the God's Spirit.

1155
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:29,920
And so that's a good clue and
and frankly, that's that teaches

1156
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,600
some doctrine that I find all
over the scriptures.

1157
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,240
For instance, in the book of
Moses, which is just Genesis,

1158
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:39,040
just just Smith translation.
But in the book of Moses, we

1159
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:42,400
read that Adam and Eve taught
their children, but then it says

1160
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,280
what did Lucifer say?
He didn't teach them.

1161
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,080
Contrarily, he said, believe it
not his job is take away truth.

1162
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,360
We see this in the forefront of
the, of the Dachshund covenant

1163
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:56,720
several times shows up in Alma
twelve, 9:00 to 12:00 very, very

1164
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,520
clearly that the Lucifer's job
is to take away like knowledge

1165
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:01,680
from us.
And if, if he gets us to reject

1166
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:03,120
one truth, it can take a second
truth.

1167
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,760
So it kind of makes sense that
the first thing that you're

1168
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:09,000
going to get for an oppression
is the Holy Ghost.

1169
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:11,840
And the second thing you're
going to get is the adversary

1170
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:18,240
saying, no, don't do that.
So anyway, I, I, I learned this,

1171
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:23,320
I had been taught this, I read
this and I really wanted to have

1172
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,640
a perfect track record And I had
a companion who was amenable.

1173
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,160
So he made agreement that we
would follow any prompting that

1174
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:32,840
we received, no matter what it
was.

1175
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:35,160
If it was stupid, it didn't
matter.

1176
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:36,760
We would support each other,
right?

1177
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:40,520
Had some amazing experiences
doing this.

1178
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:46,800
Had a guy one time it was, you
know, after hours and he said,

1179
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,080
elder, I've got him prompting
you to go back and like, but

1180
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,720
elder, it's past curfew.
We're gonna not make curfew if

1181
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:53,520
we go back up there.
He said, feel like I gotta do

1182
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:54,880
it.
You promised.

1183
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:56,600
All right, We promised.
Went up.

1184
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:57,880
The guy was gonna commit
suicide.

1185
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,880
Going back stopped it.
So we had lots of different cool

1186
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:06,000
experiences that happened from
this specific pact that we made

1187
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,400
with each other.
But you know, after about a

1188
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,360
month, and our agreement was
we'd do it for a month in

1189
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:16,640
review.
After about a month of this, we

1190
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:21,280
became so much more attuned to
the spirit that we'd be like,

1191
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,920
OK, that that was the one out of
10.

1192
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,200
I'm not gonna do that.
One month is over.

1193
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,080
I recognize now that's the
adversary trying to get me to do

1194
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:31,440
something stupid made me look
bad.

1195
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:36,680
This however, this prompting, I
felt clarity of thought even

1196
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:38,840
though it was quiet.
I recognize that's the spirit.

1197
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,160
And so we, we developed a lot in
discernment, had a lot of really

1198
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:43,480
neat experiences because of
that.

1199
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,440
But 20 years later, 30 years
later, still can't find that

1200
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,600
quote.
But I did find these and all of

1201
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:53,920
them come from John Taylor and
they were all counsel given to

1202
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:58,880
John Taylor from Joseph Smith.
And, and they kind of they, they

1203
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:00,880
teach the same principle even
though it doesn't have the

1204
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:03,440
details.
So here it is now, Brother

1205
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,400
Taylor, listen to the dictates
of that spirit and cultivate it

1206
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:08,320
and it will become a spirit of
revelation.

1207
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,800
Another account I will remember
a mark Josephs made to me

1208
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:14,720
upwards of 40 years ago, said
he.

1209
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:17,880
Elder Taylor, you've been
baptized, you've had hands laid

1210
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,720
upon your head for the
reception, the Holy Ghost.

1211
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:21,680
You've been ordained to the holy
priesthood.

1212
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:26,240
Now, if you will continue to
follow the leadings of that

1213
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:28,440
spirit, it will always lead you,
right?

1214
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,800
Sometimes it might be contrary
to your judgment.

1215
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,760
Never mind that.
Follow its dictates.

1216
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:37,840
And if you be true to its
whisperings, it will in time

1217
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:41,720
become in you a principle of
revelation so that you will know

1218
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:45,840
all things.
OK, so lovely set of teachings

1219
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:47,840
there.
I mean, that's Alma 12/9 to 12.

1220
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:51,160
It's Miro night 10, four to five
all mixed up together.

1221
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:55,560
Basically though, he's just
saying you can learn to have

1222
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:58,600
more revelation by following the
Spirit and recognizing it.

1223
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:03,640
Just like he says the TPGS is a
191 or 149.

1224
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:05,240
I can never get those two
straight.

1225
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:09,040
But any rate, he says, you know,
by noticing the first instances

1226
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,560
of pure intelligence coming into
your head, you'll grow in the

1227
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,640
principle revelation.
Similar type of teaching here,

1228
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,479
but frankly this is more
helpful, I think in giving

1229
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:21,840
direction.
Then here's another cap.

1230
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,760
Joseph Smith upwards of 40 years
ago said to me, Brother Taylor,

1231
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:28,120
you've received the Holy Ghost,
now follow the influence of that

1232
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:32,240
Spirit and it will lead you into
all truth until by and by it

1233
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:34,600
will become in you a principle
of revelation.

1234
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:37,720
Then he told me, never rise in
the morning without banging

1235
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,399
before the Lord and dedicating
myself during that day.

1236
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:45,040
Another interesting detail that
you don't really find all that

1237
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:47,560
all that often.
Dedicating yourself.

1238
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:51,399
Yeah, it says before you when
you get up in the morning,

1239
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:55,000
dedicate yourself to the Lord
and say I'll do what you want me

1240
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:58,120
to do.
How many of us say, OK, this is

1241
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:00,600
my plan, this is my goal is what
I'm going to get up and do.

1242
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,240
I think motivated people can be
like that, Entrepreneurs and

1243
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,960
business owners and people are
just self motivated.

1244
01:09:07,319 --> 01:09:10,600
You're like, all right, you
know, I've got my To Do List,

1245
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,479
whatever that is.
You know, you're going to hit on

1246
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:16,200
it.
And in, in variations of that,

1247
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:19,240
you know, I, I've, I, I learned
to have principles.

1248
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:21,720
A really cool story actually,
about a railroad owner.

1249
01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:25,200
But he said, I, I only make A to
do list of the three most

1250
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:26,520
important things to get done
that day.

1251
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:29,840
And I won't do anything else.
I won't take any distractions

1252
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:31,120
unless those three things are
done.

1253
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,520
And he said it was worth
millions learning that lessons.

1254
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:38,000
Huge lesson.
I, I do that.

1255
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:41,760
I've got my To Do List and then
I mark the top three and I try

1256
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,479
not do anything till those are
done and I get a lot more done.

1257
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:48,279
Super, super productive.
So so, you know, a lot of us are

1258
01:09:48,279 --> 01:09:51,920
like that, but that's different,
isn't it, than saying, OK, Lord,

1259
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:53,880
here's my To Do List.
Here's my top three things.

1260
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:57,680
But what do you want me to do?
I want you to call sister so and

1261
01:09:57,680 --> 01:09:59,040
so make sure she's doing all
right.

1262
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:01,120
Well, I don't have time for
that.

1263
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:04,360
I want you to go visit brother
or so and so or give him a call

1264
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,960
like he's having a hard time and
you'll, you'll never know unless

1265
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:11,080
you give him a call.
Well, that's not on my list, you

1266
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:13,760
know, and, and now that it's on
my list, is that in my top

1267
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,720
three?
Can I wait till after dinner?

1268
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,400
When do I do, you know, you've
got a totally different approach

1269
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:21,160
to your day.
Now You have to really think

1270
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:24,040
through and, and, and ask, start
asking some other questions.

1271
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:26,720
OK, that conflicts with my top
three.

1272
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:28,760
So where do you want me to fit
that in?

1273
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:30,840
How do I do that?
Where do you want me to go?

1274
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:35,200
That attitude's very, very
different than, you know, how we

1275
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:39,000
tend to do things.
And you know, on the other hand,

1276
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,160
if you've got somebody who's
maybe not so self motivated to

1277
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:43,880
get up in the morning, don't
know what they're gonna do,

1278
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:47,400
that's a good thing to get them
some direction too.

1279
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,080
But it's not something we preach
a lot.

1280
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:52,640
You know, it's obvious.
It's you can just hear it and

1281
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,200
say that's obviously true
principle and Joseph taught it

1282
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:57,280
and I believe that's true.
So fine.

1283
01:10:57,280 --> 01:10:59,400
But implementing it totally
different thing.

1284
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,800
Absolutely, dude.
And, and again, these are the

1285
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:07,520
things that we don't get to hear
about a lot, right?

1286
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:13,320
It ranges from the deeply
spiritual to the this is how you

1287
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:16,440
get your day going, right?
You, you, you get kind of, you

1288
01:11:16,440 --> 01:11:19,600
know, a list together and then
dedicate it before the Lord,

1289
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,400
dedicate yourself before the
Lord and get his direction for

1290
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:26,720
your day.
Yeah.

1291
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:31,440
And, you know, I mean, you could
gather that teaching from follow

1292
01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:34,800
the Spirit or, you know, pray in
the morning and at night or

1293
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,640
whatever, But it is more
explicit.

1294
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:40,360
And I, I think it's, it's
helpful sometimes to hear things

1295
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:47,160
in different, in different ways.
So on the, on a deeper end of

1296
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:51,640
things, I, I found some quotes
that I thought were particularly

1297
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:53,360
interesting, which also were
John Taylor.

1298
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:55,160
It wasn't intended to be a John
Taylor fest.

1299
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:56,880
Just some of the more
interesting things happen to

1300
01:11:56,880 --> 01:12:02,920
have his name tagged on him.
But, you know, I, I read some

1301
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:07,360
stories and, and I've had some,
some people talking to me about

1302
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:10,360
divorce issues and who's sealed
to whom and, you know, they got

1303
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:12,920
a release, you know, all these
types of things.

1304
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:16,160
And though there are usually
some hard questions there.

1305
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:20,240
And I, I ran into some teachings
from the early brethren that

1306
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:22,320
consistently had certain
verbiage.

1307
01:12:23,440 --> 01:12:25,560
And I thought, where does that
come from?

1308
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:27,920
Where, where does that word come
from?

1309
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,280
You know?
And so I'm gonna give you a

1310
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:34,960
couple examples.
On the one hand, we have

1311
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:38,920
anecdotal information, which by
the way, I believe, but we have

1312
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:43,880
anecdotal information in this
anecdotal story where it showed

1313
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:45,280
up.
And I think in the Emma movie

1314
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:49,760
where Joseph's outside and he's
beating a carpet with a carpet

1315
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:53,960
with a little looks like a giant
spatula spade or something.

1316
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:58,640
And the brother comes up to him
and says, Brother Joseph, what

1317
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:00,120
are you doing this woman's work
for?

1318
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,360
You know, my wife, my wife works
twice as hard as your wife.

1319
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:05,160
And you should be doing more
important things.

1320
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:09,560
And you remember what he says.
Something to the effect of any

1321
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:14,120
man that that can't make his
wife happy here shouldn't expect

1322
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:16,680
to have one in the hereafter or
something like that, right?

1323
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he he says.
I know something you don't know.

1324
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:24,160
And that's in the next life, the
women get to choose if they stay

1325
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:27,440
with their husband or not.
And, and in a different place.

1326
01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:28,640
This is exactly what you're
saying.

1327
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:31,520
So there's one principle, but
then there's this other

1328
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:34,720
principle that shows up.
And sometimes, you know, we get

1329
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:37,560
opposing principles and you have
to say, OK, so how does this

1330
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:40,440
mesh together?
And this was one of those issues

1331
01:13:40,440 --> 01:13:42,600
that I, I can't find in
conflicting accounts.

1332
01:13:43,440 --> 01:13:47,000
So I was reading, I think it was
the Saint George Temple minutes.

1333
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:53,200
And they're saying, OK, this
woman left and she married, you

1334
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,280
know, she left her husband.
Her husband's good man didn't

1335
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:57,880
break his covenants.
You know, she couldn't get a

1336
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:01,120
release from him for doing
anything bad.

1337
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:06,080
But nevertheless, she moved and
she got married to this guy and

1338
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:10,160
convinced the sealer to sealer
to this guy, you know, some in

1339
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:13,200
some other city.
And it says now she's claiming

1340
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:15,760
the children are sealed to her
and wanting to have them sealed.

1341
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:17,520
And we're reviewing the records,
seeing the problem.

1342
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,920
What do we do?
And the response that they got

1343
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:23,240
back and I think it was Wolfer
Wood, you don't quote me on the

1344
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:25,600
details 'cause it's been a long
time since I've read this, but

1345
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:28,520
this is where the principles
started arising in my studies.

1346
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:32,480
He says if the brethren, if the
brother has not broken his

1347
01:14:32,480 --> 01:14:37,280
covenants, he has claimed upon
her in the next life, and the

1348
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,920
children ceiling stays with the
husband.

1349
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:43,040
So everybody remembers Joshua
Erickson.

1350
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:45,320
I've had him on the podcast
quite a few times.

1351
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:47,640
And I think.
Highly of both him and his

1352
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:49,240
family.
They're some of the best people

1353
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:52,440
I know now.
Every year they host an event

1354
01:14:52,440 --> 01:14:55,720
where speakers give talks on a
variety of gospel topics.

1355
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,640
This year, the 2024 Restoration
Tour Conference will be

1356
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,760
happening on June 14th and 15th.
On the schedule.

1357
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:05,800
This year there are 14 speakers
on a variety of topics.

1358
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:09,840
Now you can attend either in
person or virtually, and while

1359
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:12,600
it's always free to attend, I
couldn't strongly recommend you

1360
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:15,560
enough to go ahead and donate
because things like this aren't

1361
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:17,640
easy to put on, nor are they
cheap.

1362
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:21,000
So head on over to
restorationtourconference.org or

1363
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:23,720
hit the link in this episode
show notes and get all the

1364
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:27,000
details and Sign up today.
Want more from the Mormon

1365
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,680
Renegade podcast?
Head over to the Mormon Renegade

1366
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:34,600
Rumble page to see all the
videos from the podcast and the

1367
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:36,760
fundamental news program for
free.

1368
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:41,080
Still not enough?
Then join the Mormon Renegade

1369
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:44,160
Locals page by clicking the red
join button.

1370
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:47,920
And for $5.00 a month, you can
have access to podcast

1371
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:51,720
transcripts, Renegade
exclusives, as well as weekly

1372
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,880
Life stream show with the host,
Dave Sanders.

1373
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:57,960
Click the link in this episode's
show notes.

1374
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:02,400
Today in the next life in the
children ceiling stays with the

1375
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:06,440
husband.
And so I thought, OK, that's

1376
01:16:06,440 --> 01:16:09,840
interesting.
That's, you know, one case and

1377
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,400
but he labels it, talks about it
as a principle.

1378
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:14,360
So I'm, I'm noting this a little
bit extra.

1379
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:18,720
I see a couple instances like
that where he says a righteous

1380
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:21,400
man will have claim upon his
wife regardless of what she

1381
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:25,800
does, chooses in this life.
So I'm like, OK, there's that

1382
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:29,080
principle again.
Then I found this, this third

1383
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:34,440
story and it was, it's kind of
a, a, it's one of those stories.

1384
01:16:34,440 --> 01:16:37,800
You're like, man, could you have
just spent, spent five more

1385
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,520
minutes in your journal and got
this down better because I have

1386
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:42,360
all these questions about what
happened here.

1387
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:45,520
So this guy suffered a, a
divorce.

1388
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:47,400
I say suffered because it sounds
like he didn't want it.

1389
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:50,880
He, he had a divorce.
He wasn't happy about it.

1390
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:55,200
And he tried at all costs to
avoid his, his ex-wife to just

1391
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:57,840
they tried not to see each
other, not to run into each

1392
01:16:57,840 --> 01:16:59,520
other.
So he's downtown, walking around

1393
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:03,480
Temple Square, walks around the
corner and his ex-wife is

1394
01:17:03,480 --> 01:17:06,320
standing there, her walking
there with her new boyfriend

1395
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:10,360
husband.
And she starts talking and

1396
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,880
guessing from experience that
sometimes exes aren't as nice as

1397
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:17,480
they could be and sometimes
they're sweet as pie, but

1398
01:17:17,480 --> 01:17:20,480
sometimes not.
She starts poking him, prodding

1399
01:17:20,480 --> 01:17:23,120
him and saying stuff.
And that's where we're missing

1400
01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:26,320
some of the story.
And he turns to her and he says,

1401
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:30,360
you can play pretend that you're
married to him all you want, but

1402
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:33,320
in the eternities I have claim
over you and you're my wife.

1403
01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:37,760
And then he walked away and I
said, there's no word again.

1404
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:41,360
It's got to claim upon her.
Where's that coming from?

1405
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:42,880
Who taught that?
Where's that coming from?

1406
01:17:43,440 --> 01:17:48,480
And you know, and you know, if,
if she gets to choose in the

1407
01:17:48,480 --> 01:17:51,360
next life who her husband is,
then why does he have claim upon

1408
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:53,440
her?
Is that choosing only if he's

1409
01:17:53,440 --> 01:17:56,080
not righteous?
Is that you know?

1410
01:17:56,080 --> 01:18:00,160
Does she have to give it a try?
Unless, you know, for a certain

1411
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:02,480
amount of time if he is
righteous before she can choose?

1412
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:05,080
But we don't know.
None of those teachings are

1413
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:08,480
really clear.
But I found this quote by or

1414
01:18:08,480 --> 01:18:12,120
this talk by John Taylor that
frankly, I should have found

1415
01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:13,240
before.
Who knows why I missed it?

1416
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:16,760
Probably 'cause I haven't read
the entire Journal of Discourses

1417
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:20,120
yet, which I I gotta get on
task, get that done sooner or

1418
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:21,920
later.
Since I'm independently wealthy,

1419
01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:26,600
I won't do that.
So this is what John Taylor

1420
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:29,040
says.
What are the covenants we enter

1421
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:30,840
into it?
Why is it that Joseph said that

1422
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:33,760
unless this principle and
Speaking of plural marriage was

1423
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:35,680
entered into, this Kingdom could
not proceed?

1424
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:38,760
We ought to know the whys and
wherefores in relation to these

1425
01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:41,800
matters and understand something
about the principle enunciated.

1426
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:44,840
These are simply words.
We wish to know their

1427
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:47,560
signification.
So I love that.

1428
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:50,560
I mean, where is that attitude
in modern Mormonism?

1429
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,800
Yeah, we know the words.
We know what was said, but what

1430
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:56,360
do they really mean?
Let's dig deeper.

1431
01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:59,560
I love that.
So here he says, where is there

1432
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:02,480
in the world of people that make
any pretension to have a claim

1433
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:06,880
upon their wives and eternity?
There's the word, where is the

1434
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:09,480
priest in all Christendom that
teaches anything of this kind?

1435
01:19:09,480 --> 01:19:12,680
You cannot find him.
Marriage is solemnized until

1436
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:15,040
death do them part.
And when death comes to either

1437
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:16,800
party, there's an end to the
whole matter.

1438
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:19,600
And what comes after death is in
the dark to them.

1439
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:23,440
It was so with us up to the time
of the giving of that

1440
01:19:23,440 --> 01:19:28,840
revelation, meaning DNC 132.
We had no claim upon one life in

1441
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:32,200
eternity.
It was necessary that one grand

1442
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:35,560
truth should be unlocked, which
is that men and women are

1443
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:39,440
destined to live together and
have a claim upon each other in

1444
01:19:39,440 --> 01:19:42,680
eternity.
OK, when she elaborated on that,

1445
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:46,720
he doesn't, but he does clarify
some issues, so keep going.

1446
01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:51,600
Previous to this revelation,
DC132, who in all the world had

1447
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:53,520
any claim upon their wives in
the eternal world?

1448
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:55,400
Or what wife had a claim upon
her husband?

1449
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:57,480
Whoever taught them any such
principle?

1450
01:19:58,120 --> 01:20:00,960
Nobody.
And I'll add there as an

1451
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:04,280
interesting aside, some of the
Saints were really ticked off

1452
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:08,440
about DNC 132, not because it
was teaching plurality of wives,

1453
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:11,600
but because they said they had
to be married to get in heaven,

1454
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:13,760
right?
And that really ticked off a lot

1455
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:16,000
of people.
They're like, I don't want to be

1456
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:18,280
married and I want to go to
heaven anyways.

1457
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:21,800
And nobody teaches this doctrine
that you have to be married.

1458
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:23,320
We're angels strumming on a
harp.

1459
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:26,400
We're not going to have kids.
What is this teaching that you

1460
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:30,200
have to be married and to be
exalted and then you have to

1461
01:20:30,480 --> 01:20:32,160
continue to have children for
eternity?

1462
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:34,440
This sounds like work.
We don't like it.

1463
01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:37,840
I wish we had more accounts of
what how that went down.

1464
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:40,440
But we do have some accounts
saying people were upset about

1465
01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:43,320
it.
So this is, you know, a a thing

1466
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:46,640
in John John Taylor's time that
he's saying nobody teaches that

1467
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:49,400
and all you Protestants are used
to that.

1468
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:52,800
He's then he goes on.
Our position was just as Joseph

1469
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:56,040
said, If we could not receive
the gospel, which is an

1470
01:20:56,040 --> 01:20:59,680
everlasting gospel, if we cannot
receive the dictum of a

1471
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:03,480
priesthood that administers in
time and eternity, if we could

1472
01:21:03,480 --> 01:21:06,120
not receive a principle that
would save us in the eternal

1473
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:10,600
world and our wives and children
with us, we were not fit to hold

1474
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:14,040
that Kingdom and could not hold
it, for it would be taken from

1475
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:16,960
us and given to others.
Then what did this principle

1476
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:19,600
open to our view?
So this is his concluding

1477
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:23,040
thought, which I wish was more
explicit, but it is what it is,

1478
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,360
that our wives would reign with
us in the eternal kingdoms of

1479
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:29,720
God and that they should be
sealed to us not only for time

1480
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:33,600
and for all eternity.
This unfolded to us the eternal

1481
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:36,160
fitness and relationship of
things as they exist on the

1482
01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:40,680
earth of man to man, meaning the
law of adoption and of husband

1483
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:43,440
to wife.
It unfolds, and this is the key,

1484
01:21:43,440 --> 01:21:45,520
I think, of how he's, how he
expresses it here.

1485
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:49,840
It unfolds the relationship they
should occupy in time to each

1486
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:53,000
other and the relationship that
will continue to exist in

1487
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:55,800
eternity.
Hence, it is emphatically a

1488
01:21:55,800 --> 01:21:59,240
religious subject that is so
deep, sacred and profound, so

1489
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:02,120
extensive and far reaching that
it is one of the greatest

1490
01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:08,960
principles ever revealed to men.
OK, so there we have, you know,

1491
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:13,920
John Taylor saying righteous
spouses have claimed upon each

1492
01:22:13,920 --> 01:22:16,400
other in eternity through the
sealing covenant.

1493
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:23,680
So if you have a a wayward
spouse and you've been sealed

1494
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:27,640
for eternity, you have claim
upon them in the eternal, in the

1495
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:30,320
eternal worlds.
Now will you choose them?

1496
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:33,440
Maybe not.
Maybe they broke the covenant

1497
01:22:33,440 --> 01:22:35,320
too far.
They they're not even qualified,

1498
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:40,120
but you have a claim upon them
to say we have an eternal

1499
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:42,640
ceiling.
We have unfinished business

1500
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:47,040
because you took off and, you
know, wanted more money and I

1501
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:50,240
didn't make it, whatever it was.
That's the most common reason

1502
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:53,680
that we have failed marriages as
men get older.

1503
01:22:54,560 --> 01:23:01,000
So here we have a teaching that
that tempers the other one.

1504
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:04,800
Yes, woman gets to choosing the
eternities if she stays with her

1505
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:07,320
husband, but he has a claim on
her as well.

1506
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:10,920
That's the tempered side.
Does that last for 10 years, 100

1507
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:12,640
years?
Thousand years in eternity is a

1508
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:14,800
blink of an eye.
So how long does that last?

1509
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:19,560
We know nothing when that's
when, when, when is that claim

1510
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:23,160
Nolan Boyd and she could move on
and go somewhere else.

1511
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:27,000
We don't know.
We don't have that explicitly

1512
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:30,640
laid out before us.
What we have is 2 teachings, one

1513
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:33,720
of which is very anecdotal.
We, I, I haven't been able to

1514
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:37,760
track down a really good journal
entry or something that I know

1515
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:39,560
this is word for word what was
written and taught.

1516
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:42,760
We don't have that for that
quote that the women can choose

1517
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:46,280
right, But we do have John
Taylor teaching this and we do

1518
01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:50,800
have some temple minute
teachings and recommendations

1519
01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:53,720
for the brethren saying that the
men if the righteous have

1520
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:56,960
claimed upon their wives and
that the sealing of the children

1521
01:23:56,960 --> 01:24:02,400
follows the righteous parent.
Well, that's really hard in

1522
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:05,760
today's society because
sometimes and I don't know how

1523
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:07,680
prevalent this is in the church.
I've just read people

1524
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:11,080
complaining about it and
Facebook, but, and well, and

1525
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:14,720
I've met a couple people, but
OK, so the church just gave a

1526
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:17,960
release to my wife.
It wasn't warranted and I, I

1527
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:19,800
opposed it, but they did it
anyways.

1528
01:24:20,280 --> 01:24:22,840
And she now got resealed to
somebody in the temple and goes

1529
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:24,640
to church every week and he goes
to church every week.

1530
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:28,120
Seems like a good guy.
Where's the, where's the

1531
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:31,240
ceiling?
You know, is does he have claim

1532
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:32,800
on her or not?
Does she have claim on him?

1533
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:36,960
They're both purportedly
righteous, you know, but nobody,

1534
01:24:37,360 --> 01:24:38,960
nobody looks at that.
They just say, well, the person

1535
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:40,400
in authority makes the decision.
That's it.

1536
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:46,640
Well, is is that true principle
is the true principle depend on

1537
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:49,760
the righteousness of the
individual and the judge of that

1538
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:54,360
may or may not be who's judging
in the eternal world that gets

1539
01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:56,600
sorted out.
Those are questions that these

1540
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,680
teachings leave to us to to
review and consider.

1541
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:01,120
And of course, it's an easy
answer.

1542
01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:03,280
If you remember the church and
you believe that, you know,

1543
01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:05,480
Nelson's the prophet, you say,
well, he's got the right he can

1544
01:25:05,480 --> 01:25:08,040
make decision.
You know, this supersedes these

1545
01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:11,640
teachings of Joseph.
You know, you get outside of the

1546
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:13,800
mainstream church, it gets a
little bit more complicated.

1547
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:17,800
Well, yes, brother, so and so I
accept you as a leader of this

1548
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:23,440
Mormon fundamentalist group, but
I'm not sure that you can make

1549
01:25:23,440 --> 01:25:26,960
this decision because you're
related to my wife and you don't

1550
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:29,840
have a dust at the Lord and you
know, this sort of stuff.

1551
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:34,680
Yeah.
And and also you were saying you

1552
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:38,080
couldn't find the spot where it
exactly says that, that a woman

1553
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:40,160
has claim on her husband as
well.

1554
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:42,480
But Taylor alludes to it there,
right.

1555
01:25:42,480 --> 01:25:44,720
He says they have claim on each
other.

1556
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:48,080
If I oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no.
So let me, let me correct that.

1557
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:50,200
I didn't say that that she
didn't have claim on him.

1558
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:53,960
What I was saying was that
Joseph says that she can choose

1559
01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:57,160
somebody else in the next life
if she's not satisfied.

1560
01:25:57,160 --> 01:25:58,520
That's where we don't have it
kneeled down.

1561
01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:00,840
But we do have kneeled down with
Taylor, yes.

1562
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:02,520
OK.
All right.

1563
01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:05,400
That makes sense.
No, and and that's fascinating.

1564
01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:08,720
And you're right, that leaves
you wanting more like, dude,

1565
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:12,760
could you spend 10 more minutes,
just 10 more minutes before bed?

1566
01:26:13,440 --> 01:26:16,200
I I'd have bought the extra
candle so you could have rode a

1567
01:26:16,200 --> 01:26:16,760
little.
Longer.

1568
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:21,120
Yep exactly.
There's so many places that I

1569
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:22,320
read the old accounts and
journals.

1570
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:26,560
I'm like, no, no, that sounds
really exciting and almost

1571
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:28,840
teaches me what I've been
looking for for 10 years, but it

1572
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:30,280
doesn't say it but.
But.

1573
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,640
You know they're.
There might be wisdom in that

1574
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:38,240
too, though, Drew, right,
Because even though as, as

1575
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:42,640
people and, and especially
Mormons, right because of the

1576
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:46,160
way we were brought up, if you
spent time in the LDS Church, we

1577
01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:50,160
kind of like policy, right?
Policy makes it easy, right?

1578
01:26:50,160 --> 01:26:54,440
Well, this is the rule.
This is what we go by it.

1579
01:26:54,480 --> 01:26:58,000
It's I, I've often said policy
and you'll like this 'cause

1580
01:26:58,000 --> 01:27:01,040
you're an attorney.
Policy within it, within the

1581
01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:05,640
church is a lot like starry
decisis within, within the legal

1582
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:08,560
field, right?
It provides a nice framework

1583
01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:13,800
where you can get, for the most
part, a lot of continuity and

1584
01:27:13,800 --> 01:27:15,800
you can kind of expect what's
coming.

1585
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:20,200
However, history doesn't do that
for us.

1586
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:23,560
And, and maybe one of the
reasons this isn't so flushed

1587
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:27,640
out is because we're taking
something that's really kind of

1588
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:30,280
personal, right?
And, and not personal as in we

1589
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:33,760
don't talk about it, but
personal as in it's gonna vary

1590
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:38,280
case to case, right?
And just like, you know, no two

1591
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:41,440
families and no two couples are
going to be exactly the same.

1592
01:27:42,400 --> 01:27:46,800
Those are probably items best
left with the Lord, I would

1593
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:49,040
think.
And then we.

1594
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:53,960
Have to muddle out, muddle it
out ourselves down here while

1595
01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:59,400
while in mortality.
Yeah, yeah.

1596
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:03,800
In fact, interestingly, it
appears that Old Testament laws

1597
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:07,400
and ancient Near Eastern laws
that they were based upon were

1598
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:11,720
treated more like case law in
modern jurisprudence.

1599
01:28:12,480 --> 01:28:17,160
And case law is, it's like, OK,
here's the specific ruling that

1600
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:21,400
we might have, but or you can
say in matters like this, it's

1601
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:25,760
good to consider all these
factors and balance them out

1602
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,840
based upon the circumstances.
That tends to be more what we

1603
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:32,880
see of Old Testament law.
And in fact, that's the whole

1604
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:35,760
basis between an eye for an eye.
It's not, you know, go poke each

1605
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:37,840
other's eye out in this
silliness that people talk

1606
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:40,240
about.
The idea is make it just, but

1607
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:41,840
not excessive.
Right.

1608
01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:46,320
Somebody, somebody beats you up,
don't cut off their fingers.

1609
01:28:46,480 --> 01:28:49,120
You know, other ancient near
Eastern places would do that.

1610
01:28:49,480 --> 01:28:51,800
It's like that's excessive.
It's it's more than

1611
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:54,840
compensatory.
You know, just do something

1612
01:28:54,840 --> 01:28:58,320
that's relatively just where the
parties feel satisfied at the

1613
01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:02,040
result.
And, you know, they looked at a

1614
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:06,360
lot of things like that and, and
that attitude recognizes

1615
01:29:06,360 --> 01:29:12,360
something about celestial law,
or at least mortal, mortal law

1616
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:16,200
that we don't often talk about.
And that is there, there are

1617
01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:19,360
limitations to them and they
conflict with one another.

1618
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:25,480
You know, you know, in, in Alma,
I think it's, gosh, I wanna say

1619
01:29:25,480 --> 01:29:28,480
it's 34, but it could be 4042.
It's talking about justice and

1620
01:29:28,480 --> 01:29:34,560
mercy and in, in terms of the
atonement and saying, you know,

1621
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:38,720
both have to be satisfied.
But there's a balancing act

1622
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:41,520
there.
There's at some point mercy

1623
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:45,200
comes from the Savior and
justice comes because he paid

1624
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:47,560
the price.
That's also the mercy.

1625
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:50,320
But we can't always get this
perfect balance.

1626
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:54,320
So we'd have to kind of look at
case by case and say, OK, what's

1627
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:55,960
justice?
What's mercy?

1628
01:29:56,440 --> 01:30:01,360
What's the best scenario here?
And that's not an easy, quick

1629
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:04,320
policy decision.
It's it's not like that.

1630
01:30:05,320 --> 01:30:08,480
Absolutely, dude.
It's fascinating stuff.

1631
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:14,120
What else you got in there?
All right, well, I, I, I, I

1632
01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:17,200
tried to start off with kind of
some basic easy stuff and then

1633
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:22,000
have tougher stuff at the end.
So I'm going to throw out

1634
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:26,200
something controversial.
So when I was, when I was part

1635
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:30,520
of the AUBI heard a lot that
Joseph Smith was the Holy Ghost.

1636
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:35,720
Now I've found compilations of
this and they're usually 5 to 8

1637
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:38,680
quotes, sometimes 10.
I've got at least 20 in the

1638
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:43,760
book, but I also have a few of
them that have a surprising

1639
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:50,200
alliance that was formed and and
that alliance was between Orson

1640
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:52,480
Pratt and Brigham Young,
shockingly.

1641
01:30:53,480 --> 01:30:55,240
Dude, those guys never got
along.

1642
01:30:56,080 --> 01:30:58,280
I know.
So that leads a lot of credence

1643
01:30:58,280 --> 01:31:01,680
to this, right.
So it's, it was formal issue

1644
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:06,360
doctrine when I was part of AUB
that Joseph Smith was in fact

1645
01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:09,160
the Holy Ghost at some point,
you know, that he fulfilled that

1646
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:11,200
office.
And a lot of people believe

1647
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:14,600
that.
So in fact, I, I found some

1648
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:18,120
evidence of this in the Reed
Smoot hearings and, you know,

1649
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:22,920
wrote up some of those that
weren't actually attributed to

1650
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:24,600
Joseph.
So it's not in the book, but

1651
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:27,320
it's, I think it's in balance
more than pulling me footnotes

1652
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:29,000
680 or something.
I don't know.

1653
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:35,120
It's somewhere buried, but at
any rate, you know, Orson Hyde

1654
01:31:35,120 --> 01:31:37,240
was teaching this.
A bunch of people were teaching

1655
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:39,960
this there, there.
I've got quotes from newspaper

1656
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:42,680
articles saying Joseph's wives
think this Holy Ghost is a

1657
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:46,160
bedfellow.
And, you know, quotes from all

1658
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:49,280
sorts of people suggesting
Joseph was a Holy Ghost because

1659
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:52,800
he said you don't know who I am.
And he said the Holy Ghost is

1660
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:58,240
now I'm looking for or is going
to take upon him a Tabernacle so

1661
01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:00,280
that he can progress just as the
sun progressed.

1662
01:32:01,360 --> 01:32:03,800
So there are all these quotes
that suggest Joseph Smith is the

1663
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:07,560
Holy Ghost.
He also, and you can add these

1664
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:11,200
to those other quotes that says
I have to die because the

1665
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:17,600
without the testator dying,
there is no sealing of my

1666
01:32:17,600 --> 01:32:20,120
testimony.
So it says, oh, the Holy Ghost

1667
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:22,280
is a testator.
Joseph Smith is martyr's

1668
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:23,800
testator.
It must be the same person.

1669
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:28,240
So what I was surprised to learn
from this book, however, was

1670
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:30,480
that this wasn't just something
that came up in Mormon

1671
01:32:30,480 --> 01:32:33,480
fundamentalism.
And I say that a little bit

1672
01:32:33,480 --> 01:32:36,720
tongue in cheek, but this was
something that people believed

1673
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:41,840
at Joseph's times quite a lot.
And so here's a quote by Brigham

1674
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:42,240
Young.
Wait, wait.

1675
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:44,360
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
I want, I want to make sure we

1676
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:47,080
get this right.
During his lifetime, people had

1677
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:50,720
thought this.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1678
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:53,080
During Joseph's lifetime to
like, he's making these

1679
01:32:53,080 --> 01:32:55,240
statements and people are like,
oh, he's he's trying to say he's

1680
01:32:55,240 --> 01:33:00,320
the Holy Ghost.
And so, so here's the quote that

1681
01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:03,480
Brigham Young says that that
solidifies that Joseph told you.

1682
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:08,400
You do not know who he was.
Some thought he was the Holy

1683
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:11,120
Ghost and actually taught it.
But I will tell you what he

1684
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:12,960
meant.
He had reference to the blood.

1685
01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:19,640
Now I found one of these quotes
while I was in AUB and I read it

1686
01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:22,000
in the priesthood session once
and and felt like I got some

1687
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:25,920
stink eye for for it because
Brigham Young's basically saying

1688
01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:28,240
Joseph isn't the Holy Ghost.
That's not what he meant.

1689
01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:31,000
And so it's kind of going
against, I believe there.

1690
01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:32,400
But I'm just like, this is what
Brigham said.

1691
01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:35,120
I you know, I'm not saying
what's true or not.

1692
01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:39,960
That's just what he taught.
So but he goes on the he expands

1693
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:42,080
upon this and so does Oliver B
Huntington.

1694
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:45,400
And, and anyway, so I'll just
read a couple more.

1695
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:48,800
Brigham says I'm entitled to the
keys of the priesthood according

1696
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:52,600
to lineage, descent, and blood.
So is Brother Hebrew, C

1697
01:33:52,600 --> 01:33:56,480
Kimball's and many other.
We have taken kingly power and

1698
01:33:56,480 --> 01:34:00,160
grades of the priesthood.
This we would have taught in the

1699
01:34:00,160 --> 01:34:04,320
temple if time had permitted.
Joseph was entitled to the keys

1700
01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:05,920
of the priesthood according to
blood.

1701
01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:09,720
Still he was the 4th son.
But when we get another temple

1702
01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:13,240
built, we will teach you.
OK?

1703
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:15,760
Oliver B Huntington Records.
This is Joseph speaking.

1704
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:17,880
I am tired.
I've been mobbed.

1705
01:34:18,040 --> 01:34:21,080
I've suffered so much.
Some of the brethren think they

1706
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:22,960
can carry this workout better
than I can.

1707
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:25,760
Far better.
I have asked the Lord to Take Me

1708
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:28,440
Out of this world.
I have stood all I can.

1709
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:30,920
I have sealed.
I have to seal my testimony of

1710
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:34,080
this generation with my blood.
For this work will never

1711
01:34:34,080 --> 01:34:35,840
progress until the testator is
dead.

1712
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:38,920
People little know who I am when
they talk to me.

1713
01:34:39,280 --> 01:34:41,560
And they never will know until
they see me weighted in the

1714
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:44,560
balance in the Kingdom of God.
Then they will know who I am.

1715
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:47,480
I dare not tell them and they do
not know me.

1716
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:51,160
These words were spoken with
such power, they penetrated the

1717
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:52,880
heart of every soul that
believed on him.

1718
01:34:53,520 --> 01:34:57,240
OK, so notice, you know, here
this is this is one of those

1719
01:34:57,240 --> 01:35:00,560
quotes that sounds like he's
saying, you know, that he maybe

1720
01:35:00,560 --> 01:35:02,360
is the Holy Ghost 'cause they
don't know who he is.

1721
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:06,320
But then we've got these other
claims that are a little, little

1722
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:07,840
bit different that provide
balance.

1723
01:35:07,840 --> 01:35:12,080
So here's WW Phelps, he calls
him one of the Royal 70

1724
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:14,840
commissioned by the High Council
of Heaven.

1725
01:35:15,720 --> 01:35:19,200
By the way, the High Council of
Heaven, which was a word that

1726
01:35:19,200 --> 01:35:23,560
they used to refer to as Elohim,
was spoken about quite a bit.

1727
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:27,560
I've, I would venture bet I've
probably got 8 or 10 quotes to

1728
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:29,680
talk about the High Council of
Heaven or the Grand Council of

1729
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:34,440
Heaven or something like that in
these, this book or these

1730
01:35:34,440 --> 01:35:37,560
volumes.
And one of them specifically

1731
01:35:37,560 --> 01:35:40,480
says, this is George Lobbs, a
digital version of the king

1732
01:35:40,480 --> 01:35:44,440
fallout discourse is that
Lucifer was one of the members

1733
01:35:44,480 --> 01:35:49,360
of that grand council in heaven
and that he rebelled against the

1734
01:35:49,360 --> 01:35:52,360
entire council.
So interesting stuff there.

1735
01:35:52,720 --> 01:35:56,880
But WW Phelps just simply calls
him one of the royal 70, which

1736
01:35:56,880 --> 01:35:59,240
means he's got, you know, some
special priesthood.

1737
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:01,360
We don't know what that is.
That's just what he what he

1738
01:36:01,360 --> 01:36:04,040
labels it here.
So Brigham Young says this, I

1739
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:07,640
remember Joseph saying, and if I
were as pure and holy as you

1740
01:36:07,640 --> 01:36:09,560
wished me to be, I could not
stay with you.

1741
01:36:09,560 --> 01:36:13,920
Not an interesting statement.
People like had this idea of

1742
01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:16,800
what he was like, and sometimes
he would just do something

1743
01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:19,440
ornery just so they would
remember he was a man.

1744
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:23,640
He said, I couldn't stay with
you, I should not be here to

1745
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:25,840
guide and direct you, for the
Lord would take me from you.

1746
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:29,520
But Brigham says, but the Lord
did take him and the people were

1747
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:32,840
not worthy of him.
You did not know who you had

1748
01:36:32,840 --> 01:36:35,600
amongst you.
Joseph so loved this people.

1749
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:38,880
He gave his life for them.
Joseph and Hiram have given

1750
01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:41,480
their lives for the Church, but
very few knew Joseph's

1751
01:36:41,480 --> 01:36:43,520
character.
He loved you unto death.

1752
01:36:44,120 --> 01:36:46,160
You did not know it until after
his death.

1753
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:48,200
He's now sealed his testimony
with the blood.

1754
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:51,480
If the 12 had been here, we
would not have given him up.

1755
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:53,400
He should not have been given
up.

1756
01:36:53,800 --> 01:36:56,000
He was in your midst, but you
did not know him.

1757
01:36:56,480 --> 01:36:59,360
He has been taken away, for the
people are not worthy of him.

1758
01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:05,560
So he's not super explicit there
either, but all all those kind

1759
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:09,480
of call us together to give you
this bigger picture that Brigham

1760
01:37:09,480 --> 01:37:12,320
saying, yeah, there was
something really special about

1761
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:16,480
Joseph and you don't know who he
was really, but we're going to

1762
01:37:16,480 --> 01:37:19,520
teach you in the temple.
And one of the things that we

1763
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:25,800
see coming out and and this is
not in the book, but she try and

1764
01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:33,000
remember his name.
Dang it, really neat guy Curator

1765
01:37:33,000 --> 01:37:37,120
Springville Art Museum for a
long time wrote a book, Holy

1766
01:37:37,120 --> 01:37:40,080
Blood, Holy Grail.
I want to say Verrill Sanders,

1767
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:42,480
but that's not right.
At any rate, he wrote a whole

1768
01:37:42,480 --> 01:37:47,400
book talking about the bloodline
of Joseph being taught as being

1769
01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:51,040
through Christ.
And those teachings primarily

1770
01:37:51,040 --> 01:37:54,320
are not attributed to Joseph
teaching those things.

1771
01:37:54,320 --> 01:37:57,120
They're attributed to Brigham
teaching those things.

1772
01:37:57,720 --> 01:38:00,800
But here in these quotes that I
read, the two in particular,

1773
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:02,760
he's saying Joseph taught us
these things.

1774
01:38:03,280 --> 01:38:07,240
And when we get the temple belt,
another one will teach you more.

1775
01:38:08,480 --> 01:38:12,040
So what he's intimating, as far
as I can tell, putting

1776
01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:15,160
everything together, is he's
saying Joseph was a direct

1777
01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:18,680
descendant of Christ and was in
a preserved lineage, as are some

1778
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:22,600
of the rest of the 12 and some
of the other high-ranking, you

1779
01:38:22,600 --> 01:38:24,720
know, members of the church at
that time.

1780
01:38:25,200 --> 01:38:27,760
And we're entitled to the
priesthood by right of birth.

1781
01:38:28,400 --> 01:38:32,680
And that's what he meant anyway.
Take it or leave it.

1782
01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:35,560
It's a controversial topic.
You can say no, Joseph is, you

1783
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:38,880
know, on, you know, Brigham just
didn't like Joseph having a

1784
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:41,240
higher position than him or
whatever you want to believe.

1785
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:44,760
But it's it's interesting.
Again, I just would like to get

1786
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:47,760
all the quotes I can and if
they're a little tangential or

1787
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:50,920
not, if they, if they shape and
form the doctrine to give me a

1788
01:38:50,920 --> 01:38:53,160
better picture.
I want to put them all together

1789
01:38:53,160 --> 01:38:56,600
so I can see them, put them
together and say, what were they

1790
01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:59,200
really teaching here?
And sometimes it's quite clear.

1791
01:38:59,200 --> 01:39:03,000
In this instance, I don't think
it's super clear unless you just

1792
01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:07,040
totally trust Brigham, and in
which case, you know, that's

1793
01:39:07,040 --> 01:39:09,680
what he was teaching, that
Joseph wasn't the Holy Ghost.

1794
01:39:09,680 --> 01:39:11,880
He was, in fact, a descendant of
Christ.

1795
01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:13,600
It's not like he.
Couldn't be both?

1796
01:39:13,760 --> 01:39:15,160
That's just what Brigham's
teaching.

1797
01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:20,520
And here, as a point of
controversy, good material.

1798
01:39:20,840 --> 01:39:23,280
Dude, you and you know that's
what I'm about, right?

1799
01:39:23,280 --> 01:39:26,440
If someone's not yelling at me,
I feel like I've done my job.

1800
01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:31,840
But, but let me say this right,
'cause I think this is something

1801
01:39:31,840 --> 01:39:34,600
I've been wanting to talk about
for, for a little while here.

1802
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:37,920
And I think I feel like this is
probably what you just brought

1803
01:39:37,920 --> 01:39:42,120
up is a good place, right?
And, and in Full disclosure, I

1804
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:46,400
am one of the guys that, that
that buys into the theory that

1805
01:39:46,400 --> 01:39:50,480
Joseph probably was the whole
testator now.

1806
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:54,200
And just as Drew alluded, you
could take any of those comments

1807
01:39:54,200 --> 01:39:57,480
and it would probably work out
in whatever camp you're in,

1808
01:39:57,560 --> 01:40:00,440
right?
Because they are kind of

1809
01:40:00,440 --> 01:40:05,600
ambiguous, however.
Although Orson, Pratt and

1810
01:40:05,600 --> 01:40:08,680
Brigham together disputed it.
Yeah, that's I didn't need

1811
01:40:08,720 --> 01:40:11,800
Orson's coming.
That's that's by itself is so

1812
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:13,480
miraculous.
It's got to be true.

1813
01:40:13,680 --> 01:40:16,880
That's that's interesting too.
But I think this.

1814
01:40:17,120 --> 01:40:22,320
I think this speaks to something
deeper right within all of

1815
01:40:22,320 --> 01:40:24,520
humanity.
This is not just a Mormon

1816
01:40:24,520 --> 01:40:29,120
problem.
And and that is this is that I

1817
01:40:29,120 --> 01:40:35,040
think that we all have those
certain bedrock truths that we

1818
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:39,280
build our testimony on that we
can say we have experienced

1819
01:40:39,440 --> 01:40:44,120
this, right.
When when I got up after praying

1820
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:48,440
about the Book of Mormon, I
can't tell you exactly how that

1821
01:40:48,440 --> 01:40:51,160
that feeling came, You know,
Well, I can tell you it was from

1822
01:40:51,160 --> 01:40:54,640
the Holy Ghost, but I can't tell
you the mechanisms by which it

1823
01:40:54,640 --> 01:40:59,280
uses to prick my heart.
But I had tangible evidence from

1824
01:40:59,280 --> 01:41:04,120
that point forward that became a
bedrock part of who I was Now.

1825
01:41:04,760 --> 01:41:06,880
Yeah.
And this is super important when

1826
01:41:06,880 --> 01:41:10,040
you dive into fundamentalism
because there's gonna be people

1827
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:12,080
purporting revelation
everywhere.

1828
01:41:14,480 --> 01:41:20,120
There are those bedrock, solid
ideas that you should absolutely

1829
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:23,320
be willing to build your life
around.

1830
01:41:23,480 --> 01:41:27,040
Joseph was a prophet.
He restored the priesthood, the

1831
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:29,240
Book of Mormon, all those
things, right?

1832
01:41:29,240 --> 01:41:31,000
Temple ordinances all the way
down.

1833
01:41:31,880 --> 01:41:34,480
But then there's this other
stuff that's kind of off to the

1834
01:41:34,480 --> 01:41:37,520
side.
And I've seen this trap happen

1835
01:41:37,520 --> 01:41:41,720
more times than I care to admit,
where someone will glom onto

1836
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:47,280
what amounts to an idea, and
they won't test that idea the

1837
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:50,560
same way they've tested these
other things, but they'll treat

1838
01:41:50,560 --> 01:41:54,360
them as such.
And what that does is you.

1839
01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:58,920
You basically now built a part
of who you are around an idea.

1840
01:41:59,080 --> 01:42:04,920
And unlike those bedrock truths,
those ideas, those can shift as

1841
01:42:04,920 --> 01:42:07,760
new evidence comes to light.
And So what?

1842
01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:10,360
You it's really a dogma that
you're treating is doctrine.

1843
01:42:10,720 --> 01:42:12,920
Right.
You're holding on to them and,

1844
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:15,800
and you become naturally
defensive, right?

1845
01:42:16,120 --> 01:42:19,920
And so it's something that I, I
have to work on and I am by no

1846
01:42:19,920 --> 01:42:24,240
means perfect, but sometimes you
guys parse out, OK, what is it

1847
01:42:24,240 --> 01:42:27,120
that is really at my core?
And then what else are just

1848
01:42:27,120 --> 01:42:30,400
ideas, right?
And and you never, in my

1849
01:42:30,400 --> 01:42:33,520
opinion, you never want to cling
too hard to something that's not

1850
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:37,760
bedrock or that is just an idea
because as new evidence comes,

1851
01:42:38,120 --> 01:42:40,560
you can't get moved off that
spot.

1852
01:42:41,080 --> 01:42:44,640
There are things that I believe
are true, but I have to admit,

1853
01:42:44,640 --> 01:42:47,640
at the end of the day, they're
ideas, right?

1854
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:50,960
And we all have them right.
And I'm not asking for anyone to

1855
01:42:50,960 --> 01:42:53,040
tell me what theirs are.
You know what they are.

1856
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:56,720
You can work that out yourself.
But but I think this is one of

1857
01:42:56,720 --> 01:43:00,800
those places where it's probably
good to realize, look, history

1858
01:43:00,800 --> 01:43:03,080
can be a lot like science in
some ways.

1859
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:05,480
It's never really completely
settled.

1860
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:09,840
A lot of things are because
we've seen just evidence after

1861
01:43:09,840 --> 01:43:12,880
evidence amount and we're like,
OK, it would take a massive

1862
01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:18,400
shock, a massive stroke of
knowledge to overturn all this.

1863
01:43:19,400 --> 01:43:22,920
But there's a lot of other
things that we grab a hold of

1864
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:26,440
that that I'm often left like,
why are we arguing about this?

1865
01:43:26,440 --> 01:43:29,600
This doesn't seem like it is
worthy of going to war over.

1866
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:33,920
And so I think we have to be
very careful there with with

1867
01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:36,640
with with that.
And I I think this could be one

1868
01:43:36,640 --> 01:43:40,520
of those things as well.
Well, and that goes back to what

1869
01:43:40,520 --> 01:43:43,080
we were talking about earlier
where you were saying, well, how

1870
01:43:43,080 --> 01:43:44,680
did you determine what to put in
the book or not?

1871
01:43:44,680 --> 01:43:46,640
And I said, well, I'll leave
that to the reader.

1872
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:50,200
You know, there there's some
things, you know, if I, if I

1873
01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:53,240
found a quote that well, and I
I've got quotes in there that

1874
01:43:53,240 --> 01:43:56,160
says Joseph never taught form be
us.

1875
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:00,640
You know, if if anybody believes
that frankly, they haven't done

1876
01:44:00,640 --> 01:44:03,200
their homework and they're so
biased against the truth that

1877
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:07,680
they can't even bother to study
history carefully, that they

1878
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:09,040
deserve to believe that.
Garbage.

1879
01:44:10,360 --> 01:44:15,120
History just doesn't doesn't go
there even if I wanted it to.

1880
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:19,680
It doesn't go there but but I
still include it in the book

1881
01:44:20,120 --> 01:44:24,000
'cause it's evidence.
You know it's there and you,

1882
01:44:24,040 --> 01:44:27,240
you, you weigh it and maybe that
makes you not trust that source

1883
01:44:27,240 --> 01:44:31,040
as much later or maybe that
makes you understand a nuance or

1884
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:33,760
something.
But some of these non core

1885
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:37,760
principles where they're just
like you said, ideas that aren't

1886
01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:40,560
fleshed out well, Joseph didn't
bear his testimony.

1887
01:44:40,560 --> 01:44:43,560
He's explaining something.
We've got somebody's 30 year old

1888
01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:45,800
reminiscent account saying this
is what he taught.

1889
01:44:46,640 --> 01:44:50,400
Gosh, what exactly was that?
It's good to know.

1890
01:44:50,520 --> 01:44:52,320
It's good to be aware, it's good
to be educated.

1891
01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:53,280
It's good to have it on your
belt.

1892
01:44:53,280 --> 01:44:55,120
It's good to have it in your
arsenal, however you want to

1893
01:44:55,120 --> 01:44:58,320
describe that.
But you've got to recognize it's

1894
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:00,040
not doctrine until the Spirit
teaches you.

1895
01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:04,280
Or at least you shouldn't treat
it as doctrine until the Spirit

1896
01:45:04,280 --> 01:45:08,360
teaches you, unless it's just so
clear that the Spirit should

1897
01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:10,480
need to teach you.
I'm sorry to $5.

1898
01:45:10,480 --> 01:45:13,040
How much are you sorry?
You know, I don't need the

1899
01:45:13,040 --> 01:45:15,040
Spirit to prick me.
Tell me that's true principle.

1900
01:45:15,280 --> 01:45:17,720
I just need to say, yeah, you're
right.

1901
01:45:17,960 --> 01:45:20,560
How how much badly does how
badly does he need it versus how

1902
01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:22,240
badly do I do?
I love my brothers.

1903
01:45:22,240 --> 01:45:24,960
Might be itself or not.
This is just how I need to apply

1904
01:45:24,960 --> 01:45:28,320
this.
But yeah, there are a lot of lot

1905
01:45:28,320 --> 01:45:31,240
of teachings like that.
And frankly, in this book, I've

1906
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:34,480
got quotes and I could find you
a whole bunch more, but they're

1907
01:45:34,480 --> 01:45:36,120
not attributed to Joseph.
So they're not in the book

1908
01:45:37,320 --> 01:45:39,880
where, you know, you've got
people saying, well, you get,

1909
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:44,400
you experience the probation as
a Holy Ghost, you experience

1910
01:45:44,400 --> 01:45:47,520
probation as a Savior, and then
you experience of probation as

1911
01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:50,400
an atom.
Then you're exalted, fully

1912
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:52,480
exalted or level 5-6 or
whatever.

1913
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:57,520
So you've got those two and you
know, with with that, maybe

1914
01:45:57,520 --> 01:46:00,960
Joseph was saying I'm the next
Holy Ghost or maybe I fulfilled

1915
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:03,800
that part of probation for 1000
years and now I'm doing the next

1916
01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:08,520
level it, you know, of being the
testator of who knows, we just

1917
01:46:08,520 --> 01:46:13,040
don't have that information.
And, and maybe Brigham was was

1918
01:46:13,040 --> 01:46:15,080
trying to protect that doctrine
from being public.

1919
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:18,880
And so he told another truth.
You know, there's that

1920
01:46:18,920 --> 01:46:22,400
possibility too.
So I think it's important not to

1921
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:26,520
become dogmatic with a lot of
these things regardless of the

1922
01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:30,440
evidence at some level, because
it's just not super clear in

1923
01:46:30,440 --> 01:46:32,040
some instances.
Absolutely.

1924
01:46:34,280 --> 01:46:37,760
So if we have time, I I had a
couple more stories that I

1925
01:46:37,840 --> 01:46:39,920
thought were interesting.
Absolutely.

1926
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:43,960
We've got all.
The time in the world one quote

1927
01:46:43,960 --> 01:46:48,800
I thought Mason's in his early
20s, he can he can walk this off

1928
01:46:48,960 --> 01:46:51,800
true so.
He can, he can added everything.

1929
01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:59,720
OK.
So Joseph when he was leaving to

1930
01:47:00,320 --> 01:47:05,760
the martyrdom, first of all, you
know, I had heard and read and I

1931
01:47:05,840 --> 01:47:07,920
it's not been a point of
interest to me.

1932
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:10,960
So honestly, I haven't studied
it carefully, but you know,

1933
01:47:11,080 --> 01:47:14,840
heard about Joseph talking about
going to the Rockies, everything

1934
01:47:14,840 --> 01:47:18,160
that I'd read on it, which
again, wasn't something that I

1935
01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:20,800
I've studied carefully, but just
read a couple articles or

1936
01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:22,720
something.
Sound like there's maybe five

1937
01:47:22,720 --> 01:47:27,680
maybe 10 you know sources that
talk about it not so I I don't

1938
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:30,200
know how many have got 30-40 a
lot.

1939
01:47:31,280 --> 01:47:33,440
But it wasn't just that Joseph
said we're going to go to the

1940
01:47:33,440 --> 01:47:36,000
Rockies.
Joseph actually instituted a

1941
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:42,280
group of men and called people
to a calling to scout out to go

1942
01:47:42,280 --> 01:47:44,840
West to find the Rocky Mountains
for the Saints to live there.

1943
01:47:46,040 --> 01:47:49,920
And this we have from one of the
brethren who said Joseph gave me

1944
01:47:49,920 --> 01:47:51,560
this specific calling before he
died.

1945
01:47:51,560 --> 01:47:53,360
And no, this wasn't really bring
his ideas.

1946
01:47:53,360 --> 01:47:56,920
People say it was Joseph was the
one calling us to the Rockies.

1947
01:47:57,640 --> 01:48:02,200
We also have an account of
somebody saying Joseph Smith

1948
01:48:02,200 --> 01:48:07,280
senior was being a bit coy in a
meeting and and being a quiet

1949
01:48:07,280 --> 01:48:09,560
and they said how long are we
going to be live here in Nauvoo?

1950
01:48:09,600 --> 01:48:13,080
And he said Joseph said six
years, but don't let that out.

1951
01:48:13,080 --> 01:48:15,880
He doesn't want people to get
discouraged because we've just

1952
01:48:15,880 --> 01:48:18,600
suffered all these losses of
getting kicked out of Missouri,

1953
01:48:19,440 --> 01:48:21,160
but we'll only be here six
years.

1954
01:48:21,480 --> 01:48:24,920
So that was early on.
And then later we have people

1955
01:48:24,920 --> 01:48:27,480
testifying.
Not only did Joseph prepare a

1956
01:48:27,480 --> 01:48:31,560
company of people to go out West
to the Rockies, but he drew a

1957
01:48:31,560 --> 01:48:35,280
map and told them which passes
to use, You know, which

1958
01:48:35,280 --> 01:48:38,080
directions to go to end up in
the Salt Lake Valley.

1959
01:48:39,440 --> 01:48:42,360
It's a little bit unclear as to
whether or not he actually

1960
01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:45,880
designated the Salt Lake Valley
versus Provo Valley or

1961
01:48:45,880 --> 01:48:49,960
something.
But the basic ending area was

1962
01:48:49,960 --> 01:48:52,600
somewhere that Joseph designated
and told them this is where

1963
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:55,520
you're going to end up.
So that was interesting as a

1964
01:48:55,520 --> 01:48:57,600
detail of something that Joseph
was doing.

1965
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:02,560
So, you know, they come to get
Joseph and arrest him.

1966
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:06,000
He, he gets set free.
He starts going to the Rocky

1967
01:49:06,000 --> 01:49:08,720
Mountains.
He wasn't just headed West.

1968
01:49:09,160 --> 01:49:11,880
He wasn't just escaping the law
for five or 10 minutes.

1969
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:15,120
He was going and he was going to
start the track to go West to

1970
01:49:15,120 --> 01:49:17,920
the Rocky Mountains on his own
and have some of that

1971
01:49:17,920 --> 01:49:20,080
brotherhood catch up and do a
scouting mission and bring the

1972
01:49:20,080 --> 01:49:22,520
Saints with him.
That's what he was doing.

1973
01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:28,960
So when he was on his way, we
have accounts in, you know, the

1974
01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:32,880
famous one, of course, is Emma.
There were a couple people that

1975
01:49:32,880 --> 01:49:36,200
came and convinced him to go
back, but Emma and I can't

1976
01:49:36,200 --> 01:49:38,360
remember the name of the
brotherhood specifically, but

1977
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:41,120
Emma was really distraught that
Joseph had left.

1978
01:49:41,720 --> 01:49:44,440
And when this brother and showed
up in town, she says, oh, I'm so

1979
01:49:44,440 --> 01:49:46,200
grateful.
So brother so and so came into

1980
01:49:46,200 --> 01:49:47,640
town.
He'll convince Joseph, if

1981
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:49,200
anybody can, to get him to come
back.

1982
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:53,760
So she sent him and somebody
else to go get Joseph and

1983
01:49:53,760 --> 01:49:55,720
basically tell Joseph he was a
coward.

1984
01:49:56,200 --> 01:49:59,000
So you always promised us that
you would die for us, which he

1985
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:01,280
had just given a speech about
that a couple days earlier.

1986
01:50:01,720 --> 01:50:05,640
He told the Navajo Legion, I
will die for you and I will no

1987
01:50:05,640 --> 01:50:09,000
longer suffer persecutions that
I will fight to the death for

1988
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:11,520
you to have your freedoms.
There comes a point when

1989
01:50:11,520 --> 01:50:15,880
suffering persecutions is no
longer justifiable before God.

1990
01:50:16,160 --> 01:50:19,040
We've arrived at that place and
I will fight to death for you.

1991
01:50:19,840 --> 01:50:21,720
So they said that's what you
said, but now you're being a

1992
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:24,480
coward and you're going off to
to to Rocky Mountains.

1993
01:50:25,120 --> 01:50:28,120
And that's when he says
famously, if my life is of no

1994
01:50:28,120 --> 01:50:30,560
value to my brethren, it is of
no value to me.

1995
01:50:32,000 --> 01:50:37,880
So then he starts heading back
and when he heads back, he tells

1996
01:50:37,880 --> 01:50:40,600
somebody and maybe it's just
before he left.

1997
01:50:40,600 --> 01:50:43,520
I'm not sure about that detail.
So, you know, don't get Hiccup

1998
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:45,480
too, too hard on that.
Anybody listening to the

1999
01:50:45,480 --> 01:50:48,320
podcast?
But just when he left or when he

2000
01:50:48,320 --> 01:50:52,760
came back in that area of time,
it's like one day some he told

2001
01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:56,560
somebody, he said, I hadn't
received a promise of the Lord

2002
01:50:57,040 --> 01:51:00,720
that if I wanted to stay and
lead the Saints, the Lord would

2003
01:51:00,720 --> 01:51:02,680
give me five years, but no
longer.

2004
01:51:04,680 --> 01:51:09,080
So when Joseph comes back, he's
deciding against that five

2005
01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:11,280
years.
What a difference that might

2006
01:51:11,280 --> 01:51:14,240
have made for Joseph to lead the
Saints across the Rocky

2007
01:51:14,240 --> 01:51:17,320
Mountains and had five more
years of teachings from him,

2008
01:51:18,680 --> 01:51:22,640
especially he did Rocky
Mountains, yes, because he's

2009
01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:25,240
got.
Encumbered by Victorian society

2010
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:27,720
any longer?
Right do exactly like Brigham

2011
01:51:27,720 --> 01:51:31,200
did hey, But except for he had
more sway over the people.

2012
01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:36,960
So so he's coming back and he
sees Emma and Emma says I want a

2013
01:51:36,960 --> 01:51:40,320
blessing and this is where my
timeline could be a little bit

2014
01:51:40,320 --> 01:51:42,360
tiny off.
But the idea is here.

2015
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:45,920
Emma says I want a blessing.
He said I can't give you one

2016
01:51:45,920 --> 01:51:49,720
right now, but write down
everything that you want.

2017
01:51:50,080 --> 01:51:53,080
Come visit me Carthage jail and
I will sign the blessing.

2018
01:51:54,240 --> 01:51:58,880
Now, this is an interesting
concept that I, I mentioned this

2019
01:51:58,880 --> 01:52:01,640
in my, my little mini podcast
that I do, I say mini 'cause

2020
01:52:01,640 --> 01:52:05,920
they're like 5-10 minutes long.
But this idea of concept of

2021
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:09,920
writing down a, a blessing is
kind of unusual.

2022
01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:12,320
But here he's saying write down
what you want and I'll bless you

2023
01:52:12,320 --> 01:52:14,680
with it.
Well, that's really, really

2024
01:52:14,680 --> 01:52:19,760
interesting for about 5 reasons.
That first reason is his father

2025
01:52:19,760 --> 01:52:21,960
as patriarch of the church used
to tell people that.

2026
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:25,680
And in this, in the accounts,
they say, Father Smith used to

2027
01:52:25,680 --> 01:52:28,680
tell us if I'd forgotten
anything or if there's a special

2028
01:52:28,680 --> 01:52:32,440
blessing that you want, write it
down and I will sign my name to

2029
01:52:32,440 --> 01:52:37,200
it because I know that if you
will live for a blessing, you

2030
01:52:37,200 --> 01:52:40,680
will receive it.
And so that that was the

2031
01:52:40,680 --> 01:52:43,120
principle and the idea.
And this we find in DNC 130

2032
01:52:43,120 --> 01:52:47,520
verse is 22, Let's get it wrong,
where he says all laws are

2033
01:52:47,520 --> 01:52:50,000
predicated or all blessings are
predicated upon the law and

2034
01:52:50,080 --> 01:52:51,720
obedience to law brings the
blessing, right?

2035
01:52:52,440 --> 01:52:54,000
So that's basically what it's
teaching.

2036
01:52:54,200 --> 01:52:57,160
Trouble, of course, is knowing
what law is to get the blessing

2037
01:52:57,160 --> 01:53:00,960
we want isn't outlined anywhere
for a lot of blessings.

2038
01:53:02,320 --> 01:53:04,920
And so that becomes the trick.
But that's what he told Emma.

2039
01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:08,920
So Emma went home and she wrote
down this big long blessing of

2040
01:53:08,920 --> 01:53:12,840
what she wanted, and it never
got signed because Joseph died

2041
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:18,320
because she called him back.
So really, really interesting.

2042
01:53:18,360 --> 01:53:21,960
Her blessing specifically asked
that she would have courage to

2043
01:53:21,960 --> 01:53:25,880
live what what she was supposed
to live and to, you know, have

2044
01:53:25,880 --> 01:53:28,600
the integrity to, to do whatever
was asked of her.

2045
01:53:28,600 --> 01:53:31,800
And, you know, stuff that she'd
been struggling with sounds

2046
01:53:31,800 --> 01:53:34,240
really very much like she's
talking about plural marriage,

2047
01:53:34,240 --> 01:53:38,960
but she doesn't specifically say
that, although it's kind of hard

2048
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:42,280
not to see it.
So anyway, that was a really,

2049
01:53:42,280 --> 01:53:44,840
really interesting thing.
But then later, you know,

2050
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:47,440
somebody was asking Joseph to
pray about something and they

2051
01:53:47,440 --> 01:53:52,240
remarked that Joseph said, I
have not been able to receive

2052
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:55,440
revelation since he agreed to go
to Carthage.

2053
01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:59,520
And like the heavens were
darkness before him, which kind

2054
01:53:59,520 --> 01:54:01,800
of sounds like he made the wrong
choice.

2055
01:54:02,240 --> 01:54:05,920
He should have gone W for the
Rockies and he still would have

2056
01:54:05,920 --> 01:54:07,520
been a martyr.
You know, that was his calling.

2057
01:54:07,520 --> 01:54:11,160
That was something he had to do.
And, you know, it was required

2058
01:54:11,160 --> 01:54:13,640
of him, but he could have had
five extra years.

2059
01:54:14,520 --> 01:54:18,320
But he was like, I read earlier
today, too, he said, I've had so

2060
01:54:18,320 --> 01:54:19,840
many persecutions.
I'm done.

2061
01:54:19,960 --> 01:54:23,320
I just want reprieve.
Benjamin F Johnson gives us a

2062
01:54:23,320 --> 01:54:25,360
similar count.
He said, I've suffered so much.

2063
01:54:25,360 --> 01:54:27,440
I just don't have it in me to
take anymore.

2064
01:54:28,360 --> 01:54:32,520
I just want to go home.
So, you know, he clearly just

2065
01:54:32,520 --> 01:54:35,520
reached that end.
And when the opportunity was

2066
01:54:35,520 --> 01:54:38,760
there, he said, look, if I
sacrifice myself.

2067
01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:42,000
And he says he teaches us
they'll leave the Saints alone

2068
01:54:42,480 --> 01:54:45,360
and there doesn't have to be
more bloodshed.

2069
01:54:46,000 --> 01:54:48,760
So he just decides to to go to
the martyrdom.

2070
01:54:49,920 --> 01:54:54,520
So interesting factoid.
Couple couple of things that I I

2071
01:54:54,680 --> 01:54:58,720
jumped out at me as you as you
rehearse that one is, is

2072
01:54:58,720 --> 01:55:02,400
Joseph's statement.
And I'm gonna, I'm gonna compare

2073
01:55:02,400 --> 01:55:05,840
this to something else here in a
second where he when he goes

2074
01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:08,520
back, he says since I've been in
Carthage, the heavens have been

2075
01:55:08,520 --> 01:55:14,560
darkened right now.
That's or on the way is ish.

2076
01:55:15,120 --> 01:55:18,200
What's that or on the way to
cartilage.

2077
01:55:18,200 --> 01:55:20,560
It's an ish thing.
I, I don't have that detail

2078
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:24,040
grained in my head tightly
enough to promise, but it's that

2079
01:55:24,320 --> 01:55:26,560
that's the the general timeline,
yes.

2080
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:31,360
OK, so that's an interesting
statement.

2081
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:35,760
If you look at what the Savior
said in his darkest hour on the

2082
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:39,640
cross or one of his darkest
where he says, Father, why have

2083
01:55:39,640 --> 01:55:41,560
you forsaken me?
Right?

2084
01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:45,640
There seems to be something,
there seems to be something here

2085
01:55:45,640 --> 01:55:52,080
of a pattern that when, when
that's why I never asked to be

2086
01:55:52,080 --> 01:55:58,640
too much like Joseph or Brigham.
But when when you go through

2087
01:55:58,640 --> 01:56:02,240
something like that, it seems
like you were kind of left on

2088
01:56:02,240 --> 01:56:05,080
your own a little bit when
you're making a sacrifice like

2089
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:06,280
that, right?
Like.

2090
01:56:06,960 --> 01:56:10,480
Yeah.
Have to endure this, which I

2091
01:56:10,480 --> 01:56:12,640
find interesting.
Yeah, well, he's, he's gonna

2092
01:56:12,640 --> 01:56:15,200
wrench your heartstrings to the
utmost ability possible.

2093
01:56:15,520 --> 01:56:19,200
Yep, yeah, Yep.
Oh, that's fascinating stuff.

2094
01:56:19,200 --> 01:56:20,480
Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you
off.

2095
01:56:20,480 --> 01:56:23,080
I just wanted to throw that out.
I found that fascinating.

2096
01:56:23,880 --> 01:56:25,800
No, that's great.
Yeah, I I totally agree.

2097
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:29,760
Other interesting thing is, and
I, and to be honest, I haven't

2098
01:56:29,760 --> 01:56:34,280
read Brian Hales's account of
the Angel with the drawn sword.

2099
01:56:34,840 --> 01:56:40,200
It sounded like he was going to
kind of Pooh, Pooh some of the

2100
01:56:40,200 --> 01:56:43,440
stuff as lore, the folklore that
developed as time went on.

2101
01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:49,840
And I, I think that's bad
history to assume that I, I, I

2102
01:56:49,880 --> 01:56:53,520
don't like that attitude.
And so I didn't, I didn't finish

2103
01:56:53,520 --> 01:56:56,680
reading it.
And, and also I just wasn't that

2104
01:56:56,680 --> 01:56:58,280
interested, frankly, in the
topic.

2105
01:56:59,360 --> 01:57:02,280
I'm, I'm happier to read the
original accounts to make my own

2106
01:57:02,640 --> 01:57:06,880
thoughts and stuff.
But I, I mentioned that because

2107
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:10,640
you can read the evidence that
way, it's reasonable to say,

2108
01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:13,880
well, these accounts were later.
This account was super late and

2109
01:57:13,880 --> 01:57:15,480
this detail wasn't found out
till then.

2110
01:57:15,480 --> 01:57:18,640
So it's all made-up.
I think you got to be super

2111
01:57:18,640 --> 01:57:22,920
careful doing that because
that's just crap history and,

2112
01:57:23,040 --> 01:57:24,600
and every good historian knows
that.

2113
01:57:24,600 --> 01:57:27,600
And I, I addressed that one of
my many podcasts as well.

2114
01:57:28,160 --> 01:57:32,920
But, you know, if grandpa tells
you a story and all the kids are

2115
01:57:32,920 --> 01:57:35,360
listening, what happens at the
end of the story?

2116
01:57:36,120 --> 01:57:38,160
Well, Grandpa, what happened to
so And so?

2117
01:57:38,840 --> 01:57:40,720
You said this happened, but what
about this detail?

2118
01:57:40,720 --> 01:57:42,120
You didn't tell us about that
detail.

2119
01:57:42,640 --> 01:57:44,040
And they start asking questions,
right?

2120
01:57:45,000 --> 01:57:48,280
So that's just a natural thing
that happens.

2121
01:57:48,760 --> 01:57:51,520
You know, Joseph tells the
story, somebody asks one

2122
01:57:51,520 --> 01:57:54,640
question, he answers it, tells
the story again, somebody else,

2123
01:57:54,640 --> 01:57:55,840
they have totally different
questions.

2124
01:57:55,840 --> 01:57:58,400
They answer it.
And then, you know, somebody

2125
01:57:58,400 --> 01:58:01,280
doesn't write down, but he told
them is their answer until 30

2126
01:58:01,280 --> 01:58:04,040
years later.
Now you got a memory issue, But

2127
01:58:04,040 --> 01:58:05,800
it's that doesn't make it not
true.

2128
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:08,600
It just makes it a question mark
if it's reliable.

2129
01:58:09,280 --> 01:58:12,000
So I think we've got to be
careful with the stories.

2130
01:58:12,560 --> 01:58:16,840
If, if, if calling it folklore,
it's made-up because Oh my gosh,

2131
01:58:16,840 --> 01:58:21,120
there's a miracle and it can't
be true, you know, But at any

2132
01:58:21,120 --> 01:58:24,200
rate, I, I say that just to be
fair, you can read it that way.

2133
01:58:24,520 --> 01:58:25,640
I don't, I don't read it that
way.

2134
01:58:25,680 --> 01:58:30,640
So Joseph in 1834 was visited by
the Angel, tells him you've got

2135
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:32,040
to teach this and love it,
right?

2136
01:58:32,200 --> 01:58:37,560
OK, so he sort of does.
Other than Fanny Auger, it

2137
01:58:37,560 --> 01:58:40,760
appears that by the time the
Angel came again, he'd taken 9

2138
01:58:40,760 --> 01:58:44,160
plural wives, but all of them
were married to somebody else.

2139
01:58:44,160 --> 01:58:47,000
He wasn't living with them.
It was like married to somebody

2140
01:58:47,000 --> 01:58:48,480
else for time and to him for
eternity.

2141
01:58:48,680 --> 01:58:50,160
He's kind of the backup husband,
right?

2142
01:58:50,800 --> 01:58:52,080
Right.
So this marriage isn't going to

2143
01:58:52,080 --> 01:58:54,120
work, but you've got kids.
Live your life out.

2144
01:58:54,120 --> 01:58:56,280
But I'll, I'll be your husband
in eternities.

2145
01:58:56,960 --> 01:58:58,840
And the Angel comes as not good
enough.

2146
01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:02,800
And I think there's some really
interesting things in the

2147
01:59:02,800 --> 01:59:06,280
accounts that we can argue about
as to what the Angel, in fact,

2148
01:59:06,280 --> 01:59:10,440
was telling me, had to do.
But at one point, Joseph Smith

2149
01:59:10,480 --> 01:59:13,680
arranged a meeting with the
Quorum of 12.

2150
01:59:13,680 --> 01:59:18,120
Maybe not everybody, I'm pretty
sure is unlike 9 of them, but he

2151
01:59:18,120 --> 01:59:21,600
had a meeting arranged with them
to teach them about plural

2152
01:59:21,600 --> 01:59:24,360
marriage.
Because the Angel, you know, to

2153
01:59:24,440 --> 01:59:25,560
get your butt in gear, you got
to do it.

2154
01:59:26,520 --> 01:59:29,840
So he starts going to the
meeting and he chickens out.

2155
01:59:30,400 --> 01:59:32,360
He said no, I'm not going to do
it.

2156
01:59:33,640 --> 01:59:37,120
He turns around and he starts
riding his horse away from the

2157
01:59:37,120 --> 01:59:41,000
meeting.
As he's riding away, the Angel

2158
01:59:41,000 --> 01:59:45,080
is standing on the ground in
front of him and stops him from

2159
01:59:45,080 --> 01:59:46,680
progressing on the path where
he's riding.

2160
01:59:48,160 --> 01:59:51,800
Joseph gets off the horse,
kneels down on the ground.

2161
01:59:52,040 --> 01:59:55,920
The Angel hovers over him with
the sword drawn and says, If you

2162
01:59:55,920 --> 01:59:59,600
don't go back and teach them, I
will take away your priesthood.

2163
02:00:00,080 --> 02:00:02,000
And I will destroy you right
now.

2164
02:00:03,440 --> 02:00:07,720
And so Joseph begs for his life,
begs for mercy.

2165
02:00:08,200 --> 02:00:11,120
He goes back and teaches that
lesson to to the at that

2166
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:14,480
meeting.
That's that's what I'm gathering

2167
02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:16,880
from the accounts.
There's some little details

2168
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:19,120
there that you might say, well,
maybe it was the next day or he

2169
02:00:19,120 --> 02:00:22,560
recalled the meeting later that
night, or we don't really have

2170
02:00:22,600 --> 02:00:25,440
some of the details there.
But I think it's really, really

2171
02:00:25,440 --> 02:00:29,120
interesting that that was how it
went down.

2172
02:00:29,440 --> 02:00:31,880
And according if you believe all
the accounts, if you accept all

2173
02:00:31,880 --> 02:00:35,240
of them is true, that's, you
know, that's part of the caveat

2174
02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:37,440
that I was talking about Brian
Hills earlier is you don't have

2175
02:00:37,440 --> 02:00:39,720
to read it that way.
But I think it's really

2176
02:00:39,720 --> 02:00:42,520
interesting because we've got
accounts of people saying Joseph

2177
02:00:42,520 --> 02:00:44,960
never shirked from his
responsibilities.

2178
02:00:45,760 --> 02:00:49,400
And Joseph said late in his
life, I believe after this, he

2179
02:00:49,400 --> 02:00:52,960
said, I've made this my rule
when God commands, I do it.

2180
02:00:54,040 --> 02:00:58,480
But it took this very real,
legitimate threat to his life

2181
02:00:58,480 --> 02:01:02,960
from an Angel before he finally
coughed up and said, OK, fine,

2182
02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:07,720
you know, but he had, this was
so hard for him to reveal.

2183
02:01:07,720 --> 02:01:11,360
It's so hard for him to choke up
and, and talk to people about

2184
02:01:12,040 --> 02:01:14,640
that.
He just, you know, he, he failed

2185
02:01:14,920 --> 02:01:18,000
on that, on that issue.
And so to say, Joseph never

2186
02:01:18,000 --> 02:01:19,960
shirked except on this one
thing.

2187
02:01:19,960 --> 02:01:23,280
He just couldn't do it because
he saw the trouble it would

2188
02:01:23,280 --> 02:01:25,600
cause.
He saw the pain it would cause

2189
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:28,280
and the challenges that would
cause and that it would bring it

2190
02:01:28,280 --> 02:01:32,000
into his own life that he just,
he kept arguing against the

2191
02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:35,640
Angel.
In fact, he quoted, oh, shoot,

2192
02:01:35,960 --> 02:01:37,960
not gonna sound stupid, but I
can't remember where it says the

2193
02:01:37,960 --> 02:01:41,240
Jacob 2, where it says I
commanded you shall only have

2194
02:01:41,240 --> 02:01:42,840
one wife unless I command
otherwise.

2195
02:01:43,320 --> 02:01:45,080
Right?
And he's rebuking the Nephites

2196
02:01:45,080 --> 02:01:47,680
for their abuses.
So he says wait.

2197
02:01:47,840 --> 02:01:50,760
Wait, wait, wait.
Joseph tries to use Jacob Two to

2198
02:01:50,760 --> 02:01:53,960
get out of it.
Yeah, he argues with the Angel

2199
02:01:53,960 --> 02:01:56,240
and says the scripture says not
to live this way.

2200
02:01:59,000 --> 02:02:01,440
Yeah, funny, huh, That.
Is kind of funny.

2201
02:02:03,680 --> 02:02:05,240
He was.
To say he did not win the

2202
02:02:05,240 --> 02:02:08,080
argument.
Yeah, yeah.

2203
02:02:09,200 --> 02:02:14,200
You know, I, I think this is
important too, because if

2204
02:02:14,200 --> 02:02:17,640
there's one thing we're good at,
it's turning our, our

2205
02:02:17,640 --> 02:02:20,520
predecessors into marble
statues, right?

2206
02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:22,800
We, we did it with Washington,
right?

2207
02:02:22,800 --> 02:02:27,960
It's taking so much scholarship
to show the humanity of

2208
02:02:27,960 --> 02:02:31,920
Washington again.
And we run a similar risk with

2209
02:02:31,920 --> 02:02:34,920
Joseph when we don't get these
stories of not seeing his

2210
02:02:34,920 --> 02:02:36,080
humanity.
Yes.

2211
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:42,240
And that's, that's important
because there are many times,

2212
02:02:42,320 --> 02:02:44,640
especially in the Doctrine and
Covenants, right?

2213
02:02:45,120 --> 02:02:48,400
And the Doctrine and Covenants
is such a unique book in all of

2214
02:02:48,400 --> 02:02:52,240
religion because you have the
Lord speaking first person,

2215
02:02:52,240 --> 02:02:54,680
perhaps more in that book than
any other.

2216
02:02:55,840 --> 02:03:01,360
And, and but what that is coming
out of is Joseph reaching for

2217
02:03:01,360 --> 02:03:04,160
the Savior like the rest of us
are right now.

2218
02:03:04,160 --> 02:03:08,240
His circumstances are different.
He's like, how in the hell do I

2219
02:03:08,240 --> 02:03:10,080
run a church?
Right?

2220
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:13,960
And so the Lord's kind of, you
know, telling him how to do it.

2221
02:03:14,400 --> 02:03:19,560
But through that process, you,
you see the, the, that Joseph is

2222
02:03:19,560 --> 02:03:21,880
struggling with, with a lot of
the same things.

2223
02:03:21,880 --> 02:03:24,440
I think we struggle with in some
ways, right?

2224
02:03:24,640 --> 02:03:27,080
Maybe not as long, maybe not as
repetitive.

2225
02:03:27,080 --> 02:03:29,560
He seems to be a quick learner
that way, so to speak.

2226
02:03:30,040 --> 02:03:35,600
But but it, it's good to see the
humanity so we can relate to

2227
02:03:35,600 --> 02:03:37,120
him.
It's the same reason I like the

2228
02:03:37,120 --> 02:03:40,520
Adam God doctrine and and I know
it to be true.

2229
02:03:41,600 --> 02:03:45,720
It it, it, it puts deity in
proximity to the rest of us.

2230
02:03:46,880 --> 02:03:50,240
These kind of stories with
Joseph, it gives us proximity to

2231
02:03:50,240 --> 02:03:51,560
him, right?
It gives us.

2232
02:03:51,680 --> 02:03:54,160
Yeah, like Brigham said.
Hallelujah every time.

2233
02:03:54,160 --> 02:03:56,680
I know that I knew the man, I
could use him.

2234
02:03:57,360 --> 02:03:58,960
An imperfect guy, maybe.
Me too.

2235
02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:02,920
Yep, Yeah, yeah.
No, I, I think these kind of

2236
02:04:02,920 --> 02:04:08,640
stories are so vital so we can
keep showing not just Joseph the

2237
02:04:08,640 --> 02:04:12,640
statue, but Joseph the man,
because I think that's where the

2238
02:04:12,640 --> 02:04:17,360
wisdom really lies.
So I love that there's a a story

2239
02:04:17,360 --> 02:04:27,280
by Joseph F Smith and Joseph F
Smith is talking about a

2240
02:04:27,280 --> 02:04:35,200
specific instance where Joseph
beats somebody up and he he, he

2241
02:04:35,200 --> 02:04:37,120
puts it like this.
He said, you know, he was his

2242
02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:39,240
uncle Joseph, right?
So he says he was playing

2243
02:04:39,240 --> 02:04:41,840
outside marbles by the fence
with some of his friends.

2244
02:04:42,440 --> 02:04:44,200
And all of a sudden there's this
big ruckus.

2245
02:04:45,080 --> 02:04:49,080
And Dang, now I can't remember
the name of the pastor that he

2246
02:04:49,080 --> 02:04:54,120
kicked up and beat up, but he
said, the first thing I see is,

2247
02:04:54,160 --> 02:04:57,760
is Joseph is helping this man
out the door with the with the

2248
02:04:57,880 --> 02:05:01,560
leather of his boot.
And the guy didn't lead fast

2249
02:05:01,560 --> 02:05:04,520
enough, so he picked him up and
kicked him over the fence, you

2250
02:05:04,520 --> 02:05:06,720
know, or through the gate or
whatever it was, you know, that

2251
02:05:06,800 --> 02:05:09,160
that level.
And just he just basically is

2252
02:05:09,160 --> 02:05:12,040
beating him up on his way out
and hurrying him out, hurrying

2253
02:05:12,040 --> 02:05:15,080
him up.
And Joseph F Smith said, now

2254
02:05:15,080 --> 02:05:18,520
some of the you may be caused
struggle with that and look and

2255
02:05:18,520 --> 02:05:21,880
say, how could a man who had
seen the Savior had seen God

2256
02:05:22,200 --> 02:05:26,000
behave such and treat people
like that?

2257
02:05:27,160 --> 02:05:30,360
And he said, but I saw things
that you didn't see.

2258
02:05:31,400 --> 02:05:36,840
He said, I saw that man went
through so much testing and so

2259
02:05:36,840 --> 02:05:42,400
much trial and hardship.
And when somebody is suffering

2260
02:05:42,400 --> 02:05:45,200
like that.
And then this guy goes into his

2261
02:05:45,200 --> 02:05:51,560
house, Joseph feeds him, treats
him like a king, serves him and

2262
02:05:51,560 --> 02:05:53,800
treats him kindly.
And the man just sits there and

2263
02:05:53,800 --> 02:05:58,160
complaints and tells you you're
a liar and that you're, you

2264
02:05:58,160 --> 02:06:01,360
know, you're a fraud and all
that says there comes a point

2265
02:06:01,360 --> 02:06:06,320
when you cease to be a man if
you don't just respond by

2266
02:06:06,320 --> 02:06:07,800
beating the hell out of
somebody.

2267
02:06:08,440 --> 02:06:11,400
You know, he said he would have
been a less a man if he would

2268
02:06:11,400 --> 02:06:16,480
have just withstood it.
And, and but I love how his

2269
02:06:16,480 --> 02:06:20,400
perspective there is, instead of
saying, yeah, maybe Joseph was a

2270
02:06:20,400 --> 02:06:22,440
little overzealous with the
pastor.

2271
02:06:22,520 --> 02:06:25,800
You know, he could have just
pushed him or something.

2272
02:06:26,120 --> 02:06:30,600
Didn't have to kick him so hard.
But he doesn't say that, you

2273
02:06:30,600 --> 02:06:33,640
know, he's like you.
You could push a good man so far

2274
02:06:34,680 --> 02:06:40,040
and and at some point he becomes
emasculated if he doesn't fight

2275
02:06:40,040 --> 02:06:43,000
back.
And Joseph teaches that same

2276
02:06:43,000 --> 02:06:46,120
principle in Nauvoo to the
Nauvoo Legion the day or two

2277
02:06:46,120 --> 02:06:49,160
before the martyrdom.
I've got the exact date in my

2278
02:06:49,160 --> 02:06:51,240
chart for anybody who's still
interested.

2279
02:06:53,360 --> 02:06:57,880
But he says that there comes a
time when, when receiving

2280
02:06:57,880 --> 02:07:03,080
persecution goes so far that
it's no longer a virtue to turn

2281
02:07:03,080 --> 02:07:06,160
the other cheek.
And you have to defend your

2282
02:07:06,160 --> 02:07:07,720
family.
You have to defend others.

2283
02:07:07,720 --> 02:07:10,560
You have to defend the principle
of freedom, or, you know, the

2284
02:07:10,760 --> 02:07:12,520
title of liberty.
Whatever it is, you want to

2285
02:07:12,520 --> 02:07:15,160
describe it that way.
There comes a point when you

2286
02:07:15,160 --> 02:07:17,320
have to stand up and be a man
and fight.

2287
02:07:17,960 --> 02:07:20,680
And, you know, he had that very
real struggle.

2288
02:07:21,200 --> 02:07:24,840
And he did, in fact, during the
martyrdom shoot back and

2289
02:07:25,040 --> 02:07:28,720
reportedly shot and killed one
of the men who was in the mob

2290
02:07:28,720 --> 02:07:34,760
down below.
So, yeah, but there's so many

2291
02:07:34,760 --> 02:07:37,960
fabulous stories like this
peppered throughout the book

2292
02:07:39,040 --> 02:07:42,440
that and and and I try not to
just have, like you're saying,

2293
02:07:42,440 --> 02:07:48,160
faith promoting stories, but
stories that teach a lesson and

2294
02:07:48,160 --> 02:07:51,920
and not just, well, I could
extrapolate some random theme

2295
02:07:51,920 --> 02:07:55,080
from this, but a clearly
something that he's teaching.

2296
02:07:55,080 --> 02:07:59,920
That's, that's the focus of both
volumes and, and I think, you

2297
02:07:59,920 --> 02:08:05,480
know, the actual page length of
the, the actual teachings and

2298
02:08:05,480 --> 02:08:08,240
not the, you know, the
introduction and the

2299
02:08:08,240 --> 02:08:12,960
concordance, all that is
something like 870 pages, you

2300
02:08:12,960 --> 02:08:16,520
know, but, but frankly, a big
chunk of the introduction is

2301
02:08:16,520 --> 02:08:19,600
just quotes from, you know,
other parts of the book.

2302
02:08:20,160 --> 02:08:24,000
So it's, that's, that's a
massive amount of material and

2303
02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:28,560
it covers a massive number of
topics and it, it just goes on

2304
02:08:28,560 --> 02:08:32,320
and on.
You know, I, I didn't, we

2305
02:08:32,320 --> 02:08:35,440
haven't talked anything about
it, but there's dozens of

2306
02:08:35,440 --> 02:08:40,080
entries about Zion's camp and
how they, they got cholera and

2307
02:08:40,080 --> 02:08:41,880
some of them died because they
were complaining.

2308
02:08:42,480 --> 02:08:45,240
But there are also two accounts
of Joseph sealing up the entire

2309
02:08:45,240 --> 02:08:49,480
camp to eternal life.
The constitution hanging by a

2310
02:08:49,480 --> 02:08:52,040
thread.
Man, there are a lot of quotes

2311
02:08:52,040 --> 02:08:55,000
about that and a lot of little
details about how the Saints

2312
02:08:55,000 --> 02:08:59,480
will save those principles.
And there's talk about a second

2313
02:08:59,680 --> 02:09:03,760
civil war in the United States,
hundreds of quotes about the

2314
02:09:03,760 --> 02:09:09,200
last charge and similar
teachings and stuff that are

2315
02:09:09,200 --> 02:09:12,080
mostly covered in volume one
that are repeated here without

2316
02:09:12,080 --> 02:09:15,920
all the commentary and, you
know, organization stuff to make

2317
02:09:15,920 --> 02:09:17,200
you understand the principles
better.

2318
02:09:17,800 --> 02:09:23,160
So, you know, we could, we could
literally go on for hours if

2319
02:09:23,680 --> 02:09:26,960
anybody's interested and not
sold that they want to buy the

2320
02:09:26,960 --> 02:09:30,360
book, which I hate to say that
because frankly, you should just

2321
02:09:30,360 --> 02:09:34,840
buy the book, you know, and
there's certain books, you know,

2322
02:09:35,320 --> 02:09:38,920
if, if somebody's not interested
in DNC 76, I get it fine.

2323
02:09:39,120 --> 02:09:41,280
They don't want to buy changing
ordinances, changing priesthood,

2324
02:09:41,280 --> 02:09:44,360
I get it fine.
But if you are a Mormon, then

2325
02:09:44,360 --> 02:09:45,840
you need to have teachings of
Joseph.

2326
02:09:46,720 --> 02:09:49,920
So.
But if you're not yet sold on

2327
02:09:49,920 --> 02:09:52,160
that idea, I will.
I will say that if you go to

2328
02:09:52,160 --> 02:09:59,160
drewbriny.substack.com, I have
big chunks on audiobook that are

2329
02:09:59,360 --> 02:10:01,640
previewable for free
subscription.

2330
02:10:01,640 --> 02:10:04,360
Just read them paid
subscription, you can listen to

2331
02:10:04,360 --> 02:10:08,240
the whole thing.
I'm I've only uploaded through R

2332
02:10:08,240 --> 02:10:10,080
right now.
So S is coming up maybe

2333
02:10:10,080 --> 02:10:15,200
tomorrow, but you know, you can
hear some more of these stories

2334
02:10:15,200 --> 02:10:17,360
on your own kind of get a better
flavor of, you know, if you

2335
02:10:17,360 --> 02:10:19,400
think it's worth it or not and
that sort of stuff.

2336
02:10:20,720 --> 02:10:23,920
I, I would, I would hope this
is, this is one of those books I

2337
02:10:23,920 --> 02:10:25,720
really think belongs on
everybody's shelves.

2338
02:10:25,720 --> 02:10:28,800
And I've never ever said that
about anything that I've written

2339
02:10:28,840 --> 02:10:32,800
or compiled before, but this I
really think it fits.

2340
02:10:33,240 --> 02:10:35,880
It's it's such important
material for everybody to have

2341
02:10:36,760 --> 02:10:40,360
so.
Let me ask you just a couple

2342
02:10:40,360 --> 02:10:42,160
quick questions here as we wrap
up then.

2343
02:10:42,160 --> 02:10:47,680
Drew, uh huh.
First, what, what was your big

2344
02:10:47,680 --> 02:10:51,160
take away from this book?
Preparing these books?

2345
02:10:51,880 --> 02:10:55,640
What what, What jumped out at
you about Joseph that maybe you

2346
02:10:55,640 --> 02:11:00,600
hadn't anticipated learning?
Gosh, I don't know.

2347
02:11:00,600 --> 02:11:03,720
You stumped me.
The first thing that comes to my

2348
02:11:03,720 --> 02:11:11,200
mind is, you know, you know, he
was really, I upset Emma when

2349
02:11:11,200 --> 02:11:14,200
she tried to poison him the
first time and called him before

2350
02:11:14,200 --> 02:11:18,920
counsel and rebuked her and, and
said all sorts of stuff and went

2351
02:11:18,920 --> 02:11:21,360
to the extent of saying where
she bought the poison and who

2352
02:11:21,360 --> 02:11:24,240
she got it from.
She administered too much and

2353
02:11:24,240 --> 02:11:26,280
that's what made him throw it up
instead of dying.

2354
02:11:26,280 --> 02:11:28,640
And, you know, all these little
details.

2355
02:11:29,320 --> 02:11:32,360
I, I think what if if anything,
surprised me.

2356
02:11:33,480 --> 02:11:36,600
It was kind of seeing more of
what we're talking about these,

2357
02:11:36,800 --> 02:11:43,520
these bits of humanity.
But I, I, I don't know if that's

2358
02:11:43,520 --> 02:11:46,000
a perfect answer either.
Because all of these things I'd

2359
02:11:46,000 --> 02:11:48,760
read before, it was just a
matter of putting them all

2360
02:11:48,760 --> 02:11:53,360
together and making the index
and, and, and trying to make

2361
02:11:53,360 --> 02:11:56,360
sure that, you know, I've looked
at every facet of the quote,

2362
02:11:57,000 --> 02:11:59,840
trimming things down so that
it's not super long winded and

2363
02:11:59,840 --> 02:12:02,320
only has stuff material to the
teaching.

2364
02:12:02,840 --> 02:12:05,440
But enough of the context that
you understand the teaching and

2365
02:12:05,440 --> 02:12:08,560
those types of tricks.
But I'd read it all before.

2366
02:12:08,680 --> 02:12:16,040
And so I think just putting it
all together, I, I, I, I don't

2367
02:12:16,040 --> 02:12:19,400
know, maybe I could better
describe it like this.

2368
02:12:19,760 --> 02:12:22,800
When I first read the teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith, I

2369
02:12:22,800 --> 02:12:28,320
was 18 years old.
I joined the church without a

2370
02:12:28,320 --> 02:12:30,160
really strong testimony of
Joseph.

2371
02:12:31,120 --> 02:12:34,080
And as I got toward the very end
of my King Fala, you know, the

2372
02:12:34,320 --> 02:12:37,680
spirit of Elias, Elias, Elijah
and the Messiah.

2373
02:12:38,240 --> 02:12:41,160
And you know, some of these
really big talks at the end And

2374
02:12:41,160 --> 02:12:45,160
the spirit came over me and
said, no man can teach these

2375
02:12:45,160 --> 02:12:50,760
things unless he's a prophet.
And I, I, I just, there was

2376
02:12:50,760 --> 02:12:55,000
nothing in my soul that could
resist the power of that

2377
02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:58,360
statement.
It just was so obvious to me and

2378
02:12:58,720 --> 02:13:00,920
you know, everybody gets
testimony differently and, and

2379
02:13:00,920 --> 02:13:05,320
on different issues, But for me,
that testimony of Joseph really

2380
02:13:05,360 --> 02:13:07,040
made a big difference and impact
on me.

2381
02:13:07,680 --> 02:13:12,840
And I was I was just astounded
at the the depth and breadth of

2382
02:13:12,840 --> 02:13:18,000
his teaching.
And I think reading this or, or

2383
02:13:18,120 --> 02:13:20,960
writing this as it were, I'm I'm
more editor than a writer in

2384
02:13:20,960 --> 02:13:23,840
this book.
The thing that really astounded

2385
02:13:23,840 --> 02:13:29,400
me and and hit me harder than
anything else was the what I

2386
02:13:29,600 --> 02:13:34,240
compiled in the in the
introduction, all those quotes

2387
02:13:34,240 --> 02:13:38,640
where he said I had so much more
of the God taught me visions

2388
02:13:38,640 --> 02:13:40,800
that I wanted to share teachings
and revelations.

2389
02:13:40,800 --> 02:13:46,640
I want to share, but you won't
let me teach you and it wasn't

2390
02:13:47,040 --> 02:13:51,240
this is actually good.
It's OK that the Saints need

2391
02:13:51,240 --> 02:13:54,640
time to receive this.
He was frustrated.

2392
02:13:55,080 --> 02:14:00,320
He wanted to teach us more, but
we wouldn't receive it from him.

2393
02:14:00,320 --> 02:14:04,480
We were too stuck in traditions.
And those, those ideas you were

2394
02:14:04,480 --> 02:14:06,720
talking about that we become
dogmatic about, but they're not

2395
02:14:06,720 --> 02:14:11,320
core parts of our gospel.
And we can't open our eyes and

2396
02:14:11,320 --> 02:14:15,920
our minds to stretch far enough
to receive all of the things

2397
02:14:15,920 --> 02:14:21,600
that he had to teach.
And those teachings, a lot of

2398
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:25,320
them are in the journals.
Not all of them for sure, but a

2399
02:14:25,320 --> 02:14:29,120
lot of them are in the journals
and we have little snippets of

2400
02:14:29,120 --> 02:14:31,520
them from a conversation he had
with brother so and so.

2401
02:14:32,040 --> 02:14:35,520
And we just, he didn't have a
good journal entry, but we've

2402
02:14:35,520 --> 02:14:38,400
got a little snippet of it to
make us say, ah, there's

2403
02:14:38,400 --> 02:14:42,080
something else to pray about.
There's tons more to the gospel

2404
02:14:42,080 --> 02:14:44,520
than we have.
And, and I'm speaking

2405
02:14:44,520 --> 02:14:48,440
fundamentalists as well as
mainstreamers who don't have the

2406
02:14:48,440 --> 02:14:52,720
same breadth of topics to study
as fundamentalists do.

2407
02:14:54,360 --> 02:14:56,800
They may consider it just as
deep, but they certainly don't

2408
02:14:56,800 --> 02:14:59,920
have as many topics because
those are postdoctorine or

2409
02:14:59,920 --> 02:15:03,240
something, you know, So I'm
saying I'm speaking to both.

2410
02:15:03,680 --> 02:15:07,680
There are things that he was
teaching that none of the groups

2411
02:15:07,800 --> 02:15:12,640
really address well.
Maybe Collier's group accepted

2412
02:15:12,640 --> 02:15:14,680
they've, they've got some really
good scholars in that group,

2413
02:15:16,520 --> 02:15:19,400
have always had somebody that's,
you know, really well read.

2414
02:15:20,000 --> 02:15:24,120
But absent, absent a few places,
nobody's really studied the

2415
02:15:24,120 --> 02:15:27,320
breadth of this stuff very well.
And that wasn't even the full

2416
02:15:27,320 --> 02:15:29,000
breadth of what Joseph was
receiving.

2417
02:15:29,520 --> 02:15:32,840
He's like, I can teach you 100
times more than I did DNC 76,

2418
02:15:33,640 --> 02:15:35,080
but I can't 'cause you're not
ready.

2419
02:15:35,080 --> 02:15:37,360
You don't want it.
And it's just gonna make you

2420
02:15:37,360 --> 02:15:38,680
upset.
It's gonna hurt your testimony.

2421
02:15:38,680 --> 02:15:41,920
So it's better not to tell the
truth sometimes because it's,

2422
02:15:41,920 --> 02:15:43,480
it'll damage somebody, hurt
them.

2423
02:15:43,480 --> 02:15:47,240
So I'm holding it back.
But when I saw all the, I

2424
02:15:47,280 --> 02:15:48,400
thought I'm compiling these
codes.

2425
02:15:48,400 --> 02:15:50,640
I'm gonna have good, you know,
dozen of them, and it'll make

2426
02:15:50,640 --> 02:15:52,960
the point that that I'm trying
to make right now.

2427
02:15:52,960 --> 02:15:55,120
That's what I thought when I
started, when I finished the

2428
02:15:55,120 --> 02:15:59,840
book, I was like, it's too big.
I just quit adding stuff to it.

2429
02:16:00,360 --> 02:16:03,080
You know, it's, it's kind of
like beating a dead horse.

2430
02:16:03,720 --> 02:16:05,680
I don't know how many I've got.
I think there are like 35

2431
02:16:05,680 --> 02:16:08,200
statements in the beginning
section that Joseph complaining

2432
02:16:08,200 --> 02:16:11,280
that he wanted to teach more.
Adding fifteen more just gets

2433
02:16:11,280 --> 02:16:14,200
obnoxious, you know, And so
they're not there, they're just

2434
02:16:14,280 --> 02:16:15,480
in the book.
But you can find them in the

2435
02:16:15,480 --> 02:16:19,600
index and I've got a special
place for it and it's marked so

2436
02:16:19,600 --> 02:16:22,440
you can find it easier.
But I think that was the biggest

2437
02:16:22,440 --> 02:16:26,760
thing that really struck me is
that it wasn't just a thing, you

2438
02:16:26,760 --> 02:16:28,320
know, sure like to teach him
more.

2439
02:16:28,320 --> 02:16:33,000
It was a burden for him to, to
know so much and not be able to

2440
02:16:33,000 --> 02:16:38,000
share.
And I, I, it, it drives me very

2441
02:16:38,000 --> 02:16:41,959
intensely to want to know what
did he know that he couldn't

2442
02:16:41,959 --> 02:16:45,360
share?
I don't have in, in my

2443
02:16:45,360 --> 02:16:47,680
estimation of my own self being
self introspective.

2444
02:16:47,680 --> 02:16:49,160
I don't have all these
traditions.

2445
02:16:49,760 --> 02:16:54,120
I'm a convert and I keep going
from thing to thing to thing and

2446
02:16:54,120 --> 02:16:56,440
learning some new, new doctrine
and new ideas.

2447
02:16:56,440 --> 02:17:01,639
And I, I just, I'll read
whatever it is with the belief

2448
02:17:01,639 --> 02:17:04,040
that I could be wrong in
believing whatever I thought

2449
02:17:04,040 --> 02:17:06,760
before.
So I'll take it to Lord and be

2450
02:17:06,760 --> 02:17:11,480
careful and I pray and study it
out, but I'm open to learning

2451
02:17:11,480 --> 02:17:14,280
and I just, I just have the
strong drive to find out.

2452
02:17:14,280 --> 02:17:16,280
What else did you teach?
What else is there?

2453
02:17:16,320 --> 02:17:17,400
What are we, what are we
missing?

2454
02:17:18,000 --> 02:17:20,280
You know, in the next couple
volumes, I'm going to be

2455
02:17:20,280 --> 02:17:23,840
exploring stuff that shouldn't
be shocking, you know, shouldn't

2456
02:17:23,840 --> 02:17:27,400
be too many surprises, but I bet
I'll find some in the process

2457
02:17:27,400 --> 02:17:30,080
and, and find some more general
entries in the process that'll

2458
02:17:30,360 --> 02:17:33,080
that, you know, should have gone
to this book and edit through

2459
02:17:33,080 --> 02:17:37,040
that later.
But I, I just really want to

2460
02:17:37,040 --> 02:17:41,040
know what were those things and
why isn't that more engaging to

2461
02:17:41,040 --> 02:17:43,959
more people?
I, I did some Facebook ads and

2462
02:17:43,959 --> 02:17:46,320
tested, you know, what are
people interested in on these

2463
02:17:46,320 --> 02:17:52,080
topics?
And, you know, there's a certain

2464
02:17:52,080 --> 02:17:53,200
amount of interest in all of
them.

2465
02:17:53,200 --> 02:17:55,520
But I was surprised.
For me, the number one thing is

2466
02:17:55,879 --> 02:17:58,040
what did Joseph teach secretly
that he wanted to teach

2467
02:17:58,040 --> 02:18:00,120
everybody else?
You know, that's not how I

2468
02:18:00,120 --> 02:18:02,440
worded it in the ad, of course,
because it's got to be succinct.

2469
02:18:02,440 --> 02:18:05,080
But like, what was Joseph
secretly teaching?

2470
02:18:05,520 --> 02:18:07,320
What did he want?
What did he want to teach us

2471
02:18:07,320 --> 02:18:08,200
more?
What was it?

2472
02:18:08,959 --> 02:18:12,760
But that's not the, that's not
the biggest catch for most

2473
02:18:12,760 --> 02:18:16,040
people.
You know, the, the biggest

2474
02:18:16,040 --> 02:18:17,920
catch, sadly, is what's the
church hiding?

2475
02:18:19,160 --> 02:18:23,160
And you know, some of these
feelings of frustration and, and

2476
02:18:23,160 --> 02:18:25,200
I think, you know, I understand
that feeling.

2477
02:18:25,200 --> 02:18:28,120
I've been there too.
But I, I think our bigger thing

2478
02:18:28,120 --> 02:18:29,639
should be, I want to know all
the truth.

2479
02:18:29,639 --> 02:18:30,920
Where is it?
Where can I find it?

2480
02:18:31,719 --> 02:18:36,400
And, and that's really, that's
really what kind of hits me with

2481
02:18:36,400 --> 02:18:38,600
this book.
And I I still want to know so

2482
02:18:38,600 --> 02:18:42,639
much more.
Absolutely, yeah.

2483
02:18:44,480 --> 02:18:46,120
What do you hope people take
away from it?

2484
02:18:48,160 --> 02:18:49,520
From the book.
Yeah.

2485
02:18:52,280 --> 02:18:57,400
You know, I, I think there's
this attitude and it's more in

2486
02:18:57,400 --> 02:18:59,440
mainstreamers than it is in
fundamentalists.

2487
02:18:59,440 --> 02:19:03,600
So to be fair, but there's, it's
also in, in, in, in

2488
02:19:03,600 --> 02:19:06,160
fundamentalists.
There's this attitude, a Bible,

2489
02:19:06,160 --> 02:19:07,080
a Bible.
We've got a Bible.

2490
02:19:07,080 --> 02:19:14,160
We don't need any more Bible.
I don't know how that sticks in

2491
02:19:14,440 --> 02:19:16,240
in modern Mormonism, but it's
sure there.

2492
02:19:16,879 --> 02:19:18,920
You know, we don't study the
mysteries.

2493
02:19:19,280 --> 02:19:21,440
You know, the brethren said you
don't study the mysteries.

2494
02:19:21,879 --> 02:19:23,840
Well, Joseph said study the
mysteries.

2495
02:19:23,840 --> 02:19:25,760
I'm sorry, get the teachings of
Prophet Joseph Smith.

2496
02:19:25,760 --> 02:19:28,400
He very clearly says go study
the mysteries.

2497
02:19:30,080 --> 02:19:33,080
But the we don't study mysteries
is basically a Bible Bible.

2498
02:19:33,080 --> 02:19:35,920
We've got a Bible.
You know, we the the brethren

2499
02:19:35,920 --> 02:19:37,760
will teach us what we need to
know in general conference and I

2500
02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:39,680
can read the book Mormon half
hour a day and I don't have to

2501
02:19:39,680 --> 02:19:43,480
do anything else.
Well, how are you gonna become a

2502
02:19:43,480 --> 02:19:46,040
God that knows everything if you
don't have any more curiosity

2503
02:19:46,040 --> 02:19:48,000
than that?
I understand.

2504
02:19:50,040 --> 02:19:53,960
And this idea that just because
it's in a journal means it's not

2505
02:19:53,960 --> 02:19:56,920
credible.
If it was credible, the brethren

2506
02:19:56,920 --> 02:19:58,640
would have published it in the
TPGS.

2507
02:20:00,800 --> 02:20:04,120
I would have.
A big take away would be Joseph

2508
02:20:04,120 --> 02:20:06,760
wanted to teach a whole lot
more.

2509
02:20:07,280 --> 02:20:09,680
He was teaching a whole lot
more.

2510
02:20:10,560 --> 02:20:13,560
And he would have included it in
the Doctrine Covenants if the

2511
02:20:13,560 --> 02:20:14,960
people were ready and would
listen.

2512
02:20:16,000 --> 02:20:20,040
And frankly, my my studies and
publications on DNC annotated

2513
02:20:20,040 --> 02:20:24,080
with commentary are are proving
that more to me every single

2514
02:20:24,080 --> 02:20:27,360
day.
I just put out for my followers

2515
02:20:27,360 --> 02:20:31,680
who were who were helping with
The Who were buying those books

2516
02:20:32,280 --> 02:20:34,640
10 more sections of the doctrine
in the covenants today.

2517
02:20:34,640 --> 02:20:39,200
I was shocked how much changes
Joseph made to those first ten

2518
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:40,560
sections of the Doctrine
Covenants.

2519
02:20:41,200 --> 02:20:44,200
It's not a trivial amount.
He made a lot of clarifications

2520
02:20:44,200 --> 02:20:47,320
and corrections or Oliver Cadre
made them and Joseph approved

2521
02:20:47,320 --> 02:20:49,240
them.
Either way, same thing.

2522
02:20:50,000 --> 02:20:52,880
There's so much more to the
gospel he wanted to share.

2523
02:20:52,960 --> 02:20:57,160
And if, if we could get out of
this attitude while the brethren

2524
02:20:57,160 --> 02:20:59,720
teach me everything I'm supposed
to learn and get into the

2525
02:20:59,720 --> 02:21:04,360
attitude of how do I grow as
close as possible to my Father

2526
02:21:04,360 --> 02:21:09,360
in heaven and to my Savior by
learning who they are and by

2527
02:21:09,360 --> 02:21:11,120
understanding these teachings of
the prophet.

2528
02:21:13,760 --> 02:21:16,520
That's that's should be our
attitude, right?

2529
02:21:16,520 --> 02:21:19,560
I want to learn everything I can
about how to be like them.

2530
02:21:20,480 --> 02:21:24,880
And there's a lot of material in
this book or these putu books to

2531
02:21:24,880 --> 02:21:27,480
get you there.
And it's not me preaching.

2532
02:21:28,080 --> 02:21:30,880
It's not even Brigham preaching.
It's Joseph.

2533
02:21:31,440 --> 02:21:36,200
And he had a lot to say.
And I, I just really wish people

2534
02:21:36,200 --> 02:21:41,920
could have the same breadth of
admiration for who he was that I

2535
02:21:41,920 --> 02:21:44,120
have had in, in studying him
like this.

2536
02:21:46,800 --> 02:21:49,720
I, I, I used to take, I, I took
a course from Susan Easton

2537
02:21:49,720 --> 02:21:51,760
Black.
And if you guys don't know who

2538
02:21:51,760 --> 02:21:55,080
she is, you need to find out.
She's really, she's a funny

2539
02:21:55,080 --> 02:21:59,720
woman.
She's, she was such a joy to, to

2540
02:21:59,720 --> 02:22:02,960
be in her classes at BYUI.
Think she's still teaching there

2541
02:22:04,720 --> 02:22:07,760
she was just she's just such a
hoot and she knew just about

2542
02:22:07,760 --> 02:22:12,720
everything there was to know
about Joseph and and she used to

2543
02:22:12,800 --> 02:22:16,000
joke.
I hope it was 100% a joke, but

2544
02:22:16,600 --> 02:22:18,800
she used to joke that she would
tell her husband.

2545
02:22:19,360 --> 02:22:22,560
You know, I, I really love you,
but if there's any way that I

2546
02:22:22,560 --> 02:22:24,720
can be unsealed from you and be
sealed to Joseph in the

2547
02:22:24,720 --> 02:22:26,160
eternities, that's what's going
to happen.

2548
02:22:27,800 --> 02:22:31,240
Because she, she admired him so
much and she just loved all

2549
02:22:31,240 --> 02:22:33,600
these stories about him and you
know, who he was and all that

2550
02:22:33,600 --> 02:22:37,200
sort of stuff.
And, and I think, you know, as

2551
02:22:37,200 --> 02:22:40,120
somebody who's obviously not
interested in the marriage with

2552
02:22:40,120 --> 02:22:44,840
him, I just, I just can't
imagine anybody that I admire

2553
02:22:44,840 --> 02:22:48,880
more other than the Savior or,
you know, Father in heaven or

2554
02:22:48,880 --> 02:22:51,440
something.
But frankly, we don't know as

2555
02:22:51,440 --> 02:22:53,040
much about them as we know about
Joseph.

2556
02:22:53,680 --> 02:22:57,800
So that makes a really unique
the relationship we have in

2557
02:22:57,800 --> 02:23:00,960
studying their lives of who they
truly were.

2558
02:23:03,400 --> 02:23:06,920
So in any rate, I hope, I hope
then that the book will just

2559
02:23:06,920 --> 02:23:10,760
have that effect on people to
have a a better appreciation of

2560
02:23:10,760 --> 02:23:14,600
who he really was.
And I think you can get a lot of

2561
02:23:14,600 --> 02:23:17,160
that from books like remembering
Joseph and they knew the

2562
02:23:17,160 --> 02:23:20,800
prophet, you know, especially
digital version, they knew the

2563
02:23:20,800 --> 02:23:25,000
OR remembering Joseph because
it's so long, But at some level,

2564
02:23:25,080 --> 02:23:27,800
so many descriptions of how his
forehead sighs and his blue

2565
02:23:27,800 --> 02:23:30,280
eyes.
And, you know, he, he went to

2566
02:23:30,280 --> 02:23:33,200
this meeting.
That meeting is not as impactful

2567
02:23:33,200 --> 02:23:37,120
as when he's actually teaching
doctrine and and offering it to

2568
02:23:37,120 --> 02:23:42,480
us.
Absolutely Drew, where can

2569
02:23:42,480 --> 02:23:44,000
people find your sub stack
again?

2570
02:23:45,920 --> 02:23:52,440
Drew Briny just spelled like my
name DREWBRIN ey.substack.com on

2571
02:23:52,440 --> 02:23:55,600
there.
I do mini podcasts like usually

2572
02:23:55,640 --> 02:23:59,040
four to 10 minutes and they're
just whatever I'm studying at

2573
02:23:59,040 --> 02:24:02,720
the moment.
So I I, I did one today about

2574
02:24:02,720 --> 02:24:08,840
the apocalypse of Moses and
things that that are found in

2575
02:24:08,840 --> 02:24:12,600
that apocryphal writing that
were written by the very first

2576
02:24:12,600 --> 02:24:15,960
group of Christians who left
Jerusalem before it was sacked

2577
02:24:15,960 --> 02:24:18,400
the Nazarenes.
Let me say this in a better way.

2578
02:24:19,080 --> 02:24:22,360
The the, the writings of this
group of people who are the

2579
02:24:22,360 --> 02:24:25,520
first Christians who left
Jerusalem because Christ said it

2580
02:24:25,520 --> 02:24:28,520
would be destroyed, wrote a book
called the Apocalypse of Moses.

2581
02:24:28,800 --> 02:24:31,320
It teaches lots of temple
endowment stuff.

2582
02:24:31,640 --> 02:24:33,600
It wasn't discovered too long
after Joseph's dead.

2583
02:24:34,640 --> 02:24:38,800
So I, I, I did the second in a
series of of of stuff where I

2584
02:24:38,800 --> 02:24:42,440
teach that kind of stuff.
Like, you know what, what things

2585
02:24:42,440 --> 02:24:44,960
about the endowment are showing
up in Jewish Christian writings

2586
02:24:44,960 --> 02:24:47,240
that are unearthed after
Joseph's dead and reveals the

2587
02:24:47,240 --> 02:24:51,200
endowment, whatever it is I'm
studying, That's what I do when

2588
02:24:51,200 --> 02:24:53,200
people request that I teach
something.

2589
02:24:53,320 --> 02:24:56,240
I, I do a topic on that.
But they're, they're usually

2590
02:24:56,240 --> 02:24:59,560
just short little bursts.
And I've, I'm putting my whole

2591
02:24:59,560 --> 02:25:03,080
audiobook of teachings of the
forgotten Teachings of Joseph

2592
02:25:03,080 --> 02:25:05,920
Smith on there.
And when I finish that, I'm

2593
02:25:05,920 --> 02:25:09,680
gonna do audiobooks for paid
subscribers, which is as little

2594
02:25:09,680 --> 02:25:11,640
as $5.00 a month or as much as
you want.

2595
02:25:12,320 --> 02:25:15,200
I'm going to be doing all my
books, audiobook with AI stuff

2596
02:25:15,200 --> 02:25:17,040
that I bought that's super high
quality.

2597
02:25:17,040 --> 02:25:19,480
It's they, they be better than I
do, to be honest.

2598
02:25:19,520 --> 02:25:21,440
I've been doing my own
recordings.

2599
02:25:22,000 --> 02:25:25,440
They sound better than I do.
So, so I'm going to be putting

2600
02:25:25,440 --> 02:25:29,480
those up there.
And yeah, it's, it's been

2601
02:25:29,480 --> 02:25:32,880
really, it's been really neat
experience interacting with

2602
02:25:32,920 --> 02:25:36,240
people more talking, talking to
them about what I'm learning.

2603
02:25:36,240 --> 02:25:40,800
So and name of the book and.
Then name of the book and where

2604
02:25:40,800 --> 02:25:44,600
they can find it.
OK, it's only on Amazon right

2605
02:25:44,600 --> 02:25:46,080
now.
It's called The Forgotten

2606
02:25:46,080 --> 02:25:48,600
Teachings.
It's part of Joseph Smith's

2607
02:25:48,640 --> 02:25:52,720
Doctrines and Insight series.
So they're going to be about 6

2608
02:25:52,720 --> 02:25:55,480
books total that'll culminate
with the complete teachings of

2609
02:25:55,480 --> 02:25:57,320
Joseph Smith if and if people
buy it.

2610
02:25:57,680 --> 02:26:00,040
And otherwise my family has to
starve, complain at me, and I

2611
02:26:00,040 --> 02:26:05,480
have to go get a real job.
So my wife was getting upset at

2612
02:26:05,480 --> 02:26:08,000
me for saying that.
I'm just teasing but.

2613
02:26:08,680 --> 02:26:12,840
They're not all, they're not all
cracked up in all what they have

2614
02:26:13,040 --> 02:26:17,560
to be so.
Yeah, so, so at any rate that

2615
02:26:17,560 --> 02:26:20,040
the series is called Joseph
Smith Doctrines and Insight

2616
02:26:20,040 --> 02:26:23,040
series.
This is volume 2A and 2B, but

2617
02:26:23,040 --> 02:26:26,720
the, the subtitle that it's
marketed under is the Forgotten

2618
02:26:26,720 --> 02:26:29,080
Teachings.
And if you just type in Drew

2619
02:26:29,080 --> 02:26:32,760
Briny the Forgotten Teachings or
Drew Briny Joseph Smith, it

2620
02:26:32,760 --> 02:26:34,040
it'll pop up.
It'll.

2621
02:26:34,280 --> 02:26:36,080
Be there.
I'll throw a link in the in this

2622
02:26:36,360 --> 02:26:41,000
episode's show notes.
So dude, as always, great stuff.

2623
02:26:41,000 --> 02:26:45,320
I love our conversations man.
Yeah, it's always fun to be a be

2624
02:26:45,800 --> 02:26:47,840
be a have a like minded person
chat with.

2625
02:26:48,640 --> 02:26:53,200
Well, dude, I'll tell you what,
if you keep on pace next week,

2626
02:26:53,200 --> 02:26:55,720
give me a call and we'll get you
back on talking about your other

2627
02:26:55,720 --> 02:26:57,600
book, I you.
Know right, right.

2628
02:26:57,600 --> 02:27:00,280
I'm actually, I'm actually
pretty close to a book called

2629
02:27:00,280 --> 02:27:02,920
The Essential Essential Look.
That was a joke.

2630
02:27:03,920 --> 02:27:07,000
That was a joke.
OK, I'm just saying.

2631
02:27:07,520 --> 02:27:09,200
No, no, it's good.
It's good.

2632
02:27:09,200 --> 02:27:12,000
Go ahead and and and and tell us
the name of that one that you're

2633
02:27:12,000 --> 02:27:15,680
working on.
Right, I'm doing, I'm doing 2

2634
02:27:15,680 --> 02:27:18,040
actually, what's called the
essential teaching, essential

2635
02:27:18,040 --> 02:27:21,800
understanding, sorry, essential
Adam, God teachings.

2636
02:27:22,280 --> 02:27:24,800
It's basically instead of
reading my thousand page, you

2637
02:27:24,800 --> 02:27:28,440
know, whatever turned out to be
oversized, it was 1000 pages, 6

2638
02:27:28,440 --> 02:27:30,160
by 9.
Instead of reading all that,

2639
02:27:30,600 --> 02:27:32,760
it's just the essentials.
It's for teens who are

2640
02:27:32,760 --> 02:27:35,640
fundamentalists who believe in
it but just want to know the

2641
02:27:35,640 --> 02:27:39,240
basics and for converts or
people who just like I, I just

2642
02:27:39,240 --> 02:27:43,640
want to run down to what really
is this without all the junk.

2643
02:27:45,000 --> 02:27:48,680
And then I'm doing at the same
time because it's pragmatically,

2644
02:27:48,680 --> 02:27:49,720
I'm just writing at the same
time.

2645
02:27:50,040 --> 02:27:55,240
I'm doing one called shoot, what
am I calling it?

2646
02:28:00,800 --> 02:28:02,280
Well, I guess it's not a very
good title.

2647
02:28:02,280 --> 02:28:05,680
I need to rethink it.
That's exploring.

2648
02:28:09,440 --> 02:28:12,000
It's called exploring Adam Got
Teachings.

2649
02:28:12,040 --> 02:28:14,480
And basically it's everything
that I've heard anybody

2650
02:28:14,480 --> 02:28:19,800
speculate about, consider,
ponder, and you know, cross

2651
02:28:19,800 --> 02:28:22,560
reference this with this.
Any ideas that I've heard in the

2652
02:28:22,560 --> 02:28:28,280
last 30 years about Adam Got
Teachings and is not easily

2653
02:28:28,280 --> 02:28:32,880
disproven will be in that book.
So that one will be longer and

2654
02:28:32,880 --> 02:28:36,920
more heavy and frankly will
include stuff I don't believe

2655
02:28:36,920 --> 02:28:41,400
but other people do.
Is is just to explore in depth

2656
02:28:41,440 --> 02:28:43,520
and learn everything you can
about it and decide what you

2657
02:28:43,520 --> 02:28:46,360
believe is true.
And the other one's just the the

2658
02:28:46,360 --> 02:28:48,880
sheer basics.
That one's frankly pretty much

2659
02:28:48,880 --> 02:28:50,480
done.
If I wasn't working on other

2660
02:28:50,480 --> 02:28:54,320
projects it would have been out
published by now, Sure, but

2661
02:28:54,880 --> 02:28:59,480
yeah.
All right, as always, good stuff

2662
02:28:59,480 --> 02:29:02,480
man.
Great.

2663
02:29:02,680 --> 02:29:04,240
Thanks a lot.
Thanks.

2664
02:29:04,880 --> 02:29:06,480
Bye everybody.
Take care, God bless.