Episode #130: Joseph Smith &Freemasonry W/Cheryl Bruno

1
00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,480
Sometimes I think because we're
a couple of 100 years removed

2
00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,440
from him, we assume that Joseph
Smith received revelation in a

3
00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,400
vacuum, meaning that Joseph
would just get a revelation on a

4
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,240
subject without ever having any
thought on the subject

5
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,480
beforehand.
Now certainly I'm not saying

6
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,120
that these types of revelations
never happened, but I think

7
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,160
history shows that many more
times than not, Revelation came

8
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,640
as Joseph would ponder upon a
subject, asked the Lord, and

9
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,840
then would receive revelation.
Today I have Cheryl Bruno on the

10
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,480
podcast as we discuss Joseph
Smith and Masonry.

11
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,360
Now many of us in Mormonism get
a little bit beat up over Joseph

12
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,160
being a Mason by our evangelical
brothers and sisters.

13
00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,320
Well, the day Cheryl put some of
this to rest as we discuss what

14
00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,880
Masonry's role was in 19th
century America, what Joseph's

15
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,160
interactions were with Masonry,
and what it is he saw in

16
00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:50,800
Masonry, and what it means for
us today as Mormons.

17
00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:52,840
Now.
As unsettling as this subject

18
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,840
seems to be on the surface, I'm
sure that by the end you'll come

19
00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,640
out of the other side of this
episode more convinced of ever

20
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:00,680
of Joseph Smith's prophetic
column.

21
00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,599
That and more on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade podcast.

22
00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,480
So a few weeks back I told you
about a new online merch store I

23
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,880
was putting together and that I
would let you know as soon as

24
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,560
that was up and running.
Well, after a few weeks of

25
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,200
working on designs and testing
it out personally, we're ready

26
00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:17,680
to launch.
So if you go to

27
00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,800
mormonrenegade.com and click on
the Renegade supply button in

28
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,760
the top right of the landing
page, or click the link in this

29
00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,120
episode's show notes, you'll see
that we have 16 items right now

30
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,480
that you can choose from.
We have shirts, hats, bags, cups

31
00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,960
and water bottles, all with the
Mormon Renegade logo, as well as

32
00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:36,520
a couple other designs that I
think you'll find really funny

33
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,520
and maybe even one where I take
a slight shot at BYU.

34
00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,760
But you should definitely go
check that out now.

35
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,120
This is just the beginning.
In the coming weeks, more

36
00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,560
designs and styles will be
available for purchase.

37
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,920
Now, all the proceeds I get from
this are going to go right back

38
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,440
into the podcast, so head on
over to mormonrenegade.com and

39
00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,400
press the Renegade supply button
or click the link in this

40
00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,920
episode's show notes and get
yours today.

41
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,080
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

42
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,200
Cheryl, thanks for being on.
Hey, it's great to be here.

43
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,800
So I got I gotta tell you, I
have enjoyed following your work

44
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,680
for for a number of years.
I felt like you really you were

45
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,440
one of the voices that added
added to the tapestry out there.

46
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,320
Especially when it comes to
understanding Joseph Smith and

47
00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,320
and and maybe showing how maybe
some of that revelatory

48
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,640
experience that he had came
forward and and I can't.

49
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,240
I can't tell you how much I've
appreciated reading your work

50
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,280
over the years.
Thanks.

51
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:11,960
I'm so glad that people are
reading it.

52
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:17,000
I had so much fun working with
this subject, so I'm really glad

53
00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:18,800
that people are finding it
useful.

54
00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,320
Right now, were you raised in
the church?

55
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,400
No, I wasn't raised in the
church.

56
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,760
I'm a convert and I joined the
church when I was 19 and I went

57
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:34,800
on a mission when I was 21.
And so now that I'm 64, I feel

58
00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,440
like I've been in the church
forever.

59
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,440
So when people ask me that
question, I kind of want to say

60
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,920
yeah, but but now the 1st 19
years of my life, I was my dad

61
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,120
was a Protestant minister, so I
was raised kind of in the

62
00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,080
evangelical tradition, although
my dad was very liberal as well.

63
00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,480
So.
So I don't know I have, it's

64
00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,280
kind of a different background.
No, no, I You know what?

65
00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:05,720
I I'm a convert as well now we
didn't have certainly my mom had

66
00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,960
some she was Catholic but not
like the kind of go to church

67
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,520
every Sunday Catholic.
I remember going with my dad and

68
00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,399
he would I remember going to
mass on on the holy days right

69
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,200
and being like what do I do And
he'd be like just pay attention

70
00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:26,680
to the old lady up front when
she stands we stand but no no.

71
00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,000
So I I can definitely identify
there with what you're saying.

72
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,000
How did you get into Mormons and
masonry?

73
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,720
I mean that's that's a deep hole
to go down, right?

74
00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,920
I mean, was this something you
were always interested in?

75
00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,280
Did you discover it later?
I mean, what happened there?

76
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,920
Yes, I've always been interested
in the early church in Joseph

77
00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,480
Smith's Mormonism, which I feel
is a little different than the

78
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,800
Mormonism we have today.
And so I've always just tried to

79
00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,440
pick at it and learn as much as
I can about what Joseph Smith

80
00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,400
was doing and what Nauvoo was
all about.

81
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,200
And so those kind of things
really interest me.

82
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,960
And of course, Freemasonry was a
big part of what happened in

83
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,200
Nauvoo.
And as I discovered as I was

84
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:11,160
researching the book, it was a
big part of Joseph Smith's life,

85
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,360
his whole, entire life.
Right, right.

86
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,800
Now, when you say that, and I'm
not looking for anything

87
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,080
scandalous or anything like
that, but when you say that,

88
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,120
that what we do today now,
'cause I kind of agree with you

89
00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,840
here on this, what we do today
now as Mormons isn't necessarily

90
00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:29,680
what Joseph Smith was doing,
right?

91
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,240
And I think that's throughout
every expression of Mormonism.

92
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,880
I don't think that is unique to
one church or one group of

93
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,320
people.
I think that's pretty

94
00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,520
commonplace.
What what do you mean by that?

95
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,560
What, what things in particular?
Maybe you could enlighten the

96
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,840
audience on there.
I don't know.

97
00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:49,200
I love the foundational
document, The foundational

98
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:54,440
church, you know, and I think
that, well, I mean it was

99
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:59,760
different in so many ways with
like Joseph's emphasis on I

100
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,560
think communitarianism, I think
had a lot to do with what he was

101
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,280
doing and and how he brought in
polygamy.

102
00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:10,120
I do believe that Joseph Smith
was a polygamist.

103
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,200
Today we have so many people
pushing against that idea.

104
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:20,240
But you know my research has
shown me that he was and and

105
00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,840
just he had a lot of interest in
esotericism as well and we've

106
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,520
we've really lost that a lot in
the church.

107
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:34,840
And I don't know, I feel this is
kind of early to get into this,

108
00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:41,800
but I want to really talk about
our temple because I am an LDS,

109
00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:48,000
I am an active LDS temple,
recommend holding LDS.

110
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,880
But but I recognize that it was
very different in Joseph Smith's

111
00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,000
day.
And I don't necessarily think

112
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,080
it's a bad thing that the church
has changed the temple

113
00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:01,160
ordinances because I think that
we're a Church of continuing

114
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,920
revelations.
So as these these things don't

115
00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,760
mean as much to people like, for
example, women veiling

116
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,920
themselves that had a very
different connotation in Joseph

117
00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,560
Smith's day than it does now.
Now it's like women are being

118
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,400
subjugated and they're being,
you know, pushed down.

119
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:25,200
And so we have to change that
particular thing in order to to

120
00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,080
have the same kind of feeling in
the temple that people did back

121
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:35,240
then our in our modern culture
it it would have to be changed,

122
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,800
right?
But I do really regret and feel

123
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:44,400
sad that people don't understand
the early temple ordinances in

124
00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,840
the way they were and early
symbolism, things that were in

125
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,560
the church, esotericism, the
reasons why Joseph Smith was

126
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:56,040
involved in treasure digging and
why he was involved with

127
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,760
Freemasonry.
I I think that just in today's

128
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,240
world, we just can't understand
those things and we have to put

129
00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,640
ourselves back in the 19th
century in order to understand

130
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,080
them.
And that's kind of what I did as

131
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,240
I wrote the book.
I I think, I think you're you're

132
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,560
right there certainly on a
couple of of accounts the the

133
00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,880
the idea that and I'm not a
trained historian right.

134
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,280
I wanna get that out of the way.
I'm a land surveyor by

135
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,400
profession right.
But in in in being a land

136
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,280
surveyor, you do figure out real
quick that there is kind of a a

137
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,240
hierarchy of sources a little
bit and and weighing deeds and

138
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:37,320
evidence and that sort of thing.
But I agree with you when when

139
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,080
you say that that that things
are different today and and so

140
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,200
often that creeps into the way
we look and read history right

141
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,000
when we start using presentism
to try to understand what

142
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,080
happened in the past.
That's not a great lens to view

143
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,560
that through right When we try
to impose our 21st century

144
00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,560
morals and ideals, it's it's not
gonna translate well.

145
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,600
And what we're gonna find is
that we're gonna look back a lot

146
00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,440
And rather than look at the good
things some of our predecessors

147
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,560
did, whether that be in
Mormonism or whether that be

148
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,080
that's, you know, with with the
the country at large.

149
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,160
We're gonna find that that if we
use presentism as a tool of

150
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,880
viewing that, we're gonna be at
odds with them a lot.

151
00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,160
And it's gonna cause us to focus
more on things that we perceive

152
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,640
as negative from our 21st
century standpoint rather than

153
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,600
what the conditions were on the
ground.

154
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,080
Absolutely, yes.
The more you get into what the

155
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,200
19th century way of thinking
was, the more you realized that

156
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:43,880
Joseph Smith was progressive
and, you know, he was, I think,

157
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,240
amazing.
So it's easy to look back even

158
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,600
on Brigham Young too, and and
criticize him for many things

159
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,840
that he did.
But I think that's looking with

160
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,360
our modern eye.
And it's true that some people

161
00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,480
in the community or in the
country were at the time had

162
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,080
ideas that were way ahead of
their times.

163
00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,400
And we look at Brigham and we
just give him so much criticism.

164
00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,760
But it's it's, I don't know.
I don't feel, I don't feel like

165
00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,880
he was.
I think that he was doing things

166
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,600
for the best of motives.
And I really think that Brigham

167
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,360
loved Joseph and was trying to
follow in his footsteps, that he

168
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,560
really was trying to continue
the church that he saw Joseph

169
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,560
starting.
And there were many things that

170
00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:38,200
he changed, but I think he was
really trying to stick to what

171
00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,920
he'd been taught by Joseph.
You know, certainly I don't

172
00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,440
agree with Brigham on
everything, right.

173
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,840
And and to be honest with you as
I read Brigham Young, whether

174
00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,320
that's you know his some of his
own journals or or things in the

175
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,920
Journal of Discourses, he I
don't think he expected everyone

176
00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,200
to agree, agree with him on
everything, even within his own

177
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:04,080
his own flock so to speak.
The other thing that that I

178
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,440
would say is Brigham does get
beat up a lot.

179
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,400
And I I've always said you got
to put yourself in Brigham's

180
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,200
shoes, right?
I mean this is a guy that just

181
00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,520
saw his best friend and his
brother and a couple of his his

182
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,440
brethren from the church.
Two of them were assassinated.

183
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,520
The other two you know the John
Taylor was shot.

184
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,320
I I'm not sure I would have done
every anything a whole lot

185
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,760
different than what he did,
right.

186
00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,640
I mean, I do have my feelings on
the race and the priesthood

187
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:38,160
issue, but I mean, gosh, if you
can line up with someone at 90%

188
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,040
from 200 years ago, that's not a
bad thing.

189
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,280
That shows that there's a
continuity there that that

190
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,920
continued from Joseph.
Yeah, he and Joseph both, I

191
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:53,800
think were rough, frontier kinds
of people and they like Joseph

192
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,520
said he was in the rough Stone
rolling.

193
00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,960
But I think that really they
they had so many good qualities

194
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,400
and so many spiritual
affinities.

195
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:09,360
And for Brigham to have led that
entire people across the plains

196
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,920
as he did and and started a new
society, he really had some

197
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:20,880
amazing qualities that I think
were really necessary for the

198
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,160
Saints to even survive at the
time.

199
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,120
Absolutely, absolutely.
His leadership was well for that

200
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,240
period in church history, he
absolutely was the indispensable

201
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,320
man.
I mean, he had everything he

202
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,280
needed, blessed by the Lord to
get done what needed to get

203
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,560
done.
So at what point did you get get

204
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,200
fascinated with with Mormonism
and Masonry?

205
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,400
Let's see.
Really very early.

206
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,080
But I started writing the book.
Probably.

207
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,080
I don't know, maybe like 15
years ago I started working on

208
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,000
this masonry project pretty
seriously.

209
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:08,760
So I my, my husband, my, I want
to say my ex-husband.

210
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:15,680
It's a long story, but Joe
Swick, who I was married to,

211
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,720
he's now in a skilled nursing
facility.

212
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:27,520
So he's he's kind of no longer
able to be with us and talk with

213
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,760
us, which is really, really sad
because he was an amazing person

214
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:35,800
and he is still, But he was the
one that was working on this

215
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,520
book.
And so I became involved in the

216
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,120
project and after I became
involved in the project is when

217
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:47,120
we ended up getting married.
So he's my second husband, and

218
00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:51,080
so he was the one that really
kind of introduced me because he

219
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,320
was a Freemason.
And so he can kind of introduce

220
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,800
me in a deeper way to what
Freemasonry's all about and what

221
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,440
he thought Joseph Smith was
doing with Freemasonry and that

222
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,480
kind of thing.
So that's when I just, I think I

223
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,680
became very interested in it
because it's hard to look at

224
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,520
Freemasonry from the outside.
It's sort of the same as looking

225
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,320
at Mormonism from the outside.
It's very difficult to

226
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,680
understand, like all the nuances
and what's going on.

227
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:24,000
So I guess when I got involved
with Joe is when I really just

228
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,520
became so fascinated and
interested in Freemasonry and

229
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:28,880
Mormonism.
Gotcha.

230
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,360
Now, a lot of times Mormons, and
I don't care what what burrito

231
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,200
Mormon you are, we do get beat
up on this a little bit, this,

232
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,840
this Masonic connection, right?
A lot of stuff gets thrown out

233
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,920
there about how bad the Masons
are, or were or whatever the

234
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,160
case is, and we get beat up over
it a little bit.

235
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,640
Did did you?
Were there ever moments when you

236
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,720
were doing some of this research
where you felt like like it was

237
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,120
maybe putting your testimony on
shaky ground or anything?

238
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,680
Did did it ever concern you?
No.

239
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,720
In fact, this has really
strengthened my testimony.

240
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,920
And I think that reading the
book, you've read the book.

241
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,040
So you can probably attest to
this.

242
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,280
But I think you can read the
book from several different

243
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,120
viewpoints.
You can read the book from kind

244
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,360
of an anti Mormon viewpoint and
say oh Joseph Smith was involved

245
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,520
in Freemasonry and discount that
he ever got any inspiration.

246
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,880
But you can also look at it in
in other ways too.

247
00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,680
And so I think that we tried to
write the book so from a sort of

248
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,520
a faithful perspective, so that
you can have a faithful

249
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,320
perspective and realize that
Joseph Smith was involved in

250
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,400
Masonry without it, like ruining
your testimony.

251
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,840
And never did and never did harm
my testimony in any way, because

252
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:52,120
I feel it, you know, in my head
I can work my head around what

253
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,400
he was doing with Masonry and
why he enjoyed it so much and

254
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,120
why he was fascinated with
Freemasonry and brought it into

255
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,960
the religion so.
Yeah, you know, I think so often

256
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,280
as as members of Mormonism.
Again, whatever flavor that is

257
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,880
where we get this idea and I
don't, I can't fully understand

258
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,640
why it is we come to this
conclusion.

259
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,880
But sometimes we think
revelation happens for Joseph in

260
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,240
a vacuum, so to speak, right
where just all of a sudden he

261
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,240
wakes up one night and he jots
down DNC 130, whatever.

262
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,320
Or 20 something, whatever the
case may be.

263
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,040
I don't think that's an accurate
representation of of the

264
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:38,080
process, right.
As I look at certainly the first

265
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,720
vision that revolves around
Joseph asking a question, I

266
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,800
think we can look at all of the
Doctrine and Covenants for the

267
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,080
most part and see that this is
Joseph questioning like we all

268
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,440
are, right?
In his case, he's saying how do

269
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,560
I lead a church, right?
And out of that comes what is

270
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,640
now the Doctrine and Covenants
because he had to be educated on

271
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,960
those things from the Lord.
And so sometimes I think when

272
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,880
when things like Masonry pop up,
I don't necessarily look at that

273
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,359
as something that that we should
shy away from.

274
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,240
I think that's something that
can give us some insight into

275
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,839
how that revelatory process
worked for Joseph, right.

276
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:21,920
And and I I think he he saw
things that he recognized to be

277
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,960
honest with you and and I think
that was that was huge for for

278
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,120
that process it it it spurred
him on in a lot of ways I think.

279
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,360
Well, that reminded me of when I
was first getting my patriarchal

280
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:38,120
blessing years and years and
years ago.

281
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:42,240
I and I was new in the church.
So when I went into the

282
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,640
patriarchy, was asking me
questions about myself and my

283
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,720
life and what I wanted to do and
things like that.

284
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,880
And I didn't want to answer
anything.

285
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,720
I just wanted to.
I didn't want him to know

286
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,360
anything about me and I wanted
to see how inspired he would be,

287
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,680
you know?
So I didn't tell him anything

288
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,960
about myself.
But later, much later, when I

289
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,280
had children and I was
participating or I was present

290
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,840
when Patriarch gave my daughter
a patriarchal blessing and I saw

291
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,760
how he asked her questions and,
you know, tried to get to know a

292
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,200
little bit about what she wanted
to do with her life.

293
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,120
And he actually told her, He
said, you know, I always find it

294
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,200
helpful for me to get revelation
the more I know about a person.

295
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,200
And I was like, oh, that's, you
know, that's actually true.

296
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,400
You know, you can get better
revelation the more you know and

297
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,640
the more you understand, the
easier it is to get revelation.

298
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,920
And so it's not like, you know,
Joseph Smith was.

299
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,920
It's not like discounting
Revelation to realize that he

300
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,920
was such a sponge and that he
took from everything he saw in

301
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:55,160
his society, and he took, you
know, here and there, took

302
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,640
whatever he saw that was good
and brought it in.

303
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,560
And I think that that doesn't
have to necessarily negate

304
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,480
Revelation.
Absolutely.

305
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,320
And I think we see it the same
thing when he learns Hebrew,

306
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,080
right when he studies Hebrew,
there's some interesting

307
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:17,200
doctrinal developments that
happen from from his exposure to

308
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,120
to, you know, Hebrew and and the
Hebrew scriptures and and that

309
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,320
that spurs him on.
So I I'm with you.

310
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,960
I don't think this takes away
from his revelatory ability one

311
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,800
bit or the veracity of the
things that he claimed.

312
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,840
I think that that they're all
part and parcel of that process.

313
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:43,040
So real quick, when did Joseph's
first exposure to to Masonry

314
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:48,120
begin?
I think the one who's born

315
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,920
because I think that his family
knew a lot about Masonry.

316
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,200
I think today we just don't
realize how pervasive Masonry

317
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,920
was in the society they lived in
back then.

318
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,640
Like one in 10 when in eight
people were Freemasons.

319
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,240
Men.
Sorry.

320
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,120
One in 10 men were Freemasons
and.

321
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,240
So you had like your next door
neighbor, your uncle, which

322
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:19,360
Joseph's uncle was a Mason and
cousins and your doctor his, the

323
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,880
doctor that worked on his leg
operation was a Mason and so he

324
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:29,200
knew Mason's all around him.
And then when he there was a big

325
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,560
scandal that happened in Masonry
when Joseph Smith was a young

326
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:38,280
man and there became an anti
Masonic movement in the country

327
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,160
where they were going around
exposing or doing these exposes

328
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:46,680
on what happened in a lodge.
And so you could go down the

329
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,720
street and they'd be doing a
representation of what happened

330
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,720
in the lodge to try to expose
it.

331
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,440
And Joseph Smith would have been
very aware of these things.

332
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,680
It was in the newspaper, it was
in publications.

333
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,360
And so you didn't have to be a
Mason to know what was going on

334
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:09,520
or what happened in the lodges.
And so I think he was very, very

335
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,400
much exposed to it from an early
age.

336
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,160
Got you.
You know, I I think you brought

337
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,400
out something that's that's
pretty interesting there,

338
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,320
'cause, 'cause I did do some
research on on Freemasonry years

339
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,280
ago and what I remember in in
doing my research is just what

340
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,040
you had said that there was a
moment in American history and

341
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,200
that was very fearful of of
Masonry.

342
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,520
Most of our founders were Masons
and and during that time period

343
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,000
it seemed OK And then I can't
remember what the what the

344
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,160
scandal was, but I remember
reading about it and then and

345
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,200
then it churned and and I think
one of the things that that I

346
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,000
find interesting is it wasn't
like that was a way to

347
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:55,000
necessarily get popular with the
public at large in 19th century

348
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,400
America by becoming a Mason.
So.

349
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,880
Right.
You know, this is a big thing

350
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:06,200
that my co-authors and I discuss
a lot is that many people say

351
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,960
that Joseph Smith started a
lodge in Nauvoo or or allowed

352
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,080
the lodge in Nauvoo to happen
because he wanted to become

353
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,880
friends with, you know, the the
Freemasons And maybe because

354
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:22,800
they had been kicked out of
Missouri, Maybe he wanted to,

355
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,280
you know, Curry favor with the
the surrounding Freemasons.

356
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,240
And actually we see almost the
exact opposite happening.

357
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,400
He did not do this to get
friends because if he had, he

358
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,600
would have done things totally
differently, because what he did

359
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,040
was he entered A masonry and
then started shaking it all up

360
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,720
and doing things differently and
getting in trouble, you know, So

361
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,080
he wasn't doing it to have
friends.

362
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,120
Absolutely, absolutely.
Where's some of this earlier

363
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:02,680
parts of of maybe Joseph's
ministry that we can see Masonic

364
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:08,240
ideas and Masonic parallels, I
guess, start to start to become

365
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,920
visible.
Well, in the book, in the book I

366
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,680
wrote, we talk about the First
Vision even as far back as the

367
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:20,360
First Vision, having intimations
of Freemasonry.

368
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:22,480
But you really see it in the
Book of Mormon.

369
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,360
You can see many many parallels
to Freemasonry in the Book of

370
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:31,120
Mormon and they're not all bad.
There are historians that say

371
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:35,600
that the Book of Mormon was anti
Masonic but I don't see it that

372
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,760
way as you hopefully realized
from reading that book.

373
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:46,400
I see there are there are
parallels to good Masons and bad

374
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,360
Masons, cause Joseph Smith
thought that Freemasonry had

375
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:54,000
become corrupt, as it was in the
United States at the time.

376
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,320
So he almost felt the same about
Masonry as he did about

377
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,960
Christianity, that it had become
apostate and that he was going

378
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,360
to restore it.
So there are writers, Masonic

379
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,200
writers, that talk about a
restoration of pure Freemasonry,

380
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,800
and I think that that's kind of
what Joseph thought he was

381
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,000
doing, was he was going to go
into Freemasonry and then

382
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,760
restore it as he was doing with
Christianity.

383
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,400
OK, All right.
So does he.

384
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,600
So your question.
Wait, wait, wait, let me go back

385
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,120
to questions.
So in the Book of Mormon, we

386
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,000
see, we see so many things like
first of all, we have Nephi

387
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,880
building a temple.
And the temple is not an Old

388
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,120
Testament type of temple.
It's a Masonic type of temple.

389
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:44,480
You know, it's it is like a
Solomon's temple in the Masonic

390
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,760
view, you know, So the Masons,
when they built their temples,

391
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,040
they were patterning them on
Solomon's temple in the Old

392
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,360
Testament.
But Joseph's temples, and they

393
00:24:56,360 --> 00:25:01,440
both in the Book of Mormon and
when he began to build temples,

394
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,480
are more like Masonic temples
than they are like Old Testament

395
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,000
temples.
Interesting.

396
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,760
So and now 'cause if I remember
the scripture correct correctly,

397
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,640
and I could be wrong, doesn't it
say that it was after the

398
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,000
pattern of Solomon's Temple?
Yes, it does.

399
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:22,280
But you don't see, you don't see
what happened in Selman's temple

400
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,720
happening in the Nephite
temples.

401
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,760
You don't see sacrifices, you
know, animal sacrifices, that

402
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,800
kind of thing.
You see it's more of a Masonic

403
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:36,600
type temple, but it's really,
there's so many, there's so many

404
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,880
parallels that you guess you'll
have to go to the book.

405
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,760
But even in the book, I had to
cut it down and just use, you

406
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,480
know, a few examples, because
there's so many examples of what

407
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,800
that we can pick up in the Book
of Mormon from Freemasonry.

408
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,280
Absolutely.
And and and that's fascinating

409
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:54,720
too.
Right.

410
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,080
Because you know and and I'm
going to make an assumption here

411
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,040
so please correct me if I'm
wrong on this Cheryl.

412
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,920
But as people who believe in the
in the process of the Book of

413
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,480
Mormon coming forward.
Right.

414
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,320
If he's actually, if he's
actually translating so to

415
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,600
speak, whether that's through a
seer stone or the Urim and

416
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,560
Thummim, take your pick, whether
that's going on.

417
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,360
I find it interesting that in
that ancient document we see

418
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:23,880
these parallels already and it
it's very early on in the Book

419
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,440
of Mormon.
I I think that does speak to

420
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,480
some of the veracity of of the
things he's reading and

421
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:35,400
discovering along the way.
So at what point does Joseph

422
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,760
become a Mason himself?
So he doesn't become a Mason

423
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:50,160
until 1842 when the Masonic
Lodge is started in Naavu.

424
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,680
And so he's only a Mason for
those last two years.

425
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,480
And the same thing with a lot of
people say about Brigham Young

426
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,200
that he was a Mason before, but
no, he wasn't a Mason before he

427
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,640
joined the Masonic Lodge at the
same time Joseph did.

428
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:10,520
So there were about 40 people in
Naavu at the time that we can

429
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:17,320
identify that were Masons before
they came into Mormonism or into

430
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,960
Nauvoo.
And so those people started,

431
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,160
those people started the lodge,
and then Joseph Smith joined the

432
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,760
lodge with many of the other
early men.

433
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,680
We were talking, yeah, we were
talking, you know, here just a

434
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,960
few seconds ago about it wasn't
something that you could have

435
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,240
done to win a popularity
contest.

436
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:37,760
Right.
Right.

437
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,080
Right.
What do you think Joseph's

438
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:48,640
impetus was for allowing a a a
Nauvoo Lodge to be built?

439
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,880
OK, so that's a very good
question because that is a very

440
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,120
question that I was trying to
answer when I wrote the book and

441
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:58,880
when I was involved in this book
is I wanted to know what was

442
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,920
Joseph doing?
What in the heck was he doing

443
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,000
with Masonry?
What was the reason why he

444
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,680
allowed this lodge to come into
being?

445
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,480
And what was he doing with the
lodge?

446
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,760
And so I think there's a couple
different reasons.

447
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,840
And the first thing that I think
is that he, he really was

448
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,280
fascinated with Masonry and what
it could teach him about the

449
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:25,840
ancient past.
And just the the ritual, I think

450
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,040
really appealed to him as well.
And he was believing, like I

451
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,840
said earlier, he was believing
that he was going to go in and

452
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,400
restore pure Freemasonry, and
that that was a big part of his

453
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,040
mission.
But also what he was doing was

454
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,360
we see them bringing in so many
members into the lodge.

455
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,000
So even when they started the
lodge out, that with these forty

456
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,760
members, this was more than any
other lodge in the state of

457
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,840
Nauvoo or in the state of
Illinois.

458
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,480
Sorry.
And in fact it was almost more

459
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,000
than the entire, more Masons
than the entire state of

460
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,000
Illinois because Masonry had
become so decimated during that

461
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,880
scandal, the Morgan affair that
there were very few Masons in

462
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,320
the state.
And so we we have this lodge and

463
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,520
then in the first year there are
about 245 members in the lodge.

464
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,840
So that's a huge amount because
generally a, a Masonic Lodge

465
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:32,800
will bring in maybe a couple
people, maybe one or two people

466
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,640
at the most, like two people a
month, you know, and they were

467
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,480
bringing in like 3 people a day
and sometimes they would meet

468
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,200
twice a day and bring in six
people a day, you know, and just

469
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,880
bring in so many Masons, make so
many Masons.

470
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:56,000
So what we see is that Joseph
Smith's that he had plans to

471
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,960
kind of, I don't know, take over
the lodge in Illinois.

472
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:08,200
And what we have at the time was
some talk about they wanted to

473
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,920
eventually get a National Grand
Lodge, which would be over all

474
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,520
of the United States and it
would have jurisdiction over all

475
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,480
of the lodges in every one of
the states.

476
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:25,000
And I feel that Joseph thought
that by having this power in the

477
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,760
state of Illinois, by having so
many Freemasons, that he could

478
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:34,800
become, you know, he or the
members of the lodge in Nauvoo

479
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,240
could become influential in the
Grand Lodge.

480
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,920
And so they could affect how the
rituals were done and in that

481
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,040
way that he could easily work on
this restoration that he

482
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,000
pictured.
So it's kind of complicated, but

483
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,760
I do not lay that out in the
book.

484
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,600
But I think that if if he had
had the chance to do with this,

485
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,080
I think that it may be very
Masonry would have been very

486
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,360
different today with the the
Mormon's influence.

487
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,000
How do you see that being?
How do you think that would have

488
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,000
would have looked today?
I'm gonna ask you to put on your

489
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,680
hypothesis hat, you know, and
and maybe maybe take a stab at

490
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,480
that if you're comfortable.
Oh yeah, I I really have no

491
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,040
idea.
But I know that he did want to

492
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,920
to work on the ritual and he
wanted to work on what he saw as

493
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,040
things that that were, you know,
not going right in Masonry, that

494
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,320
were kind of apostate Masonry.
So perhaps Masonry would have a

495
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,560
better reputation now than it
does today.

496
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,480
I mean, I know a lot of people
are afraid of Masonry.

497
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,480
They think there's evil, you
know, going on because it's very

498
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,000
secretive.
So it could be that they could

499
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,080
have influenced it so it had a
better perception, or it could

500
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:59,360
be even worse because Mormons
aren't looked on as being the

501
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,000
greatest.
I mean, people are scared of

502
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,200
Mormons too.
So I don't know, it's it's

503
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:11,240
really hard to say what would
have exactly happened, but I

504
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,600
think it would at least look
very different than it does

505
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,480
today.
Well, look, there's a reason you

506
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,760
should be scared of Mormons.
Anyone that shows up at your

507
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,680
doorstep with that many cookies
just to welcome you in the

508
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,440
neighborhood can't be.
Can't be up to any good.

509
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,400
No, So.
They have ulterior motives.

510
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,600
Absolutely, absolutely.
At what point does, does cause

511
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,840
certainly we can as you pointed
out there, there's some things

512
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,240
in the Book of Mormon that we
can see that that definitely

513
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:44,240
have Masonic overture so to
speak or or something that rings

514
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,720
of of Masonry there.
But at what point do do you feel

515
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,520
like in your research, Joseph
really begins to understand?

516
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,000
At what point does he say, oh, I
see what this is.

517
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,640
This used to be X, now it's Yi
need to help it get back to X.

518
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,160
When do you think it is that in
in his ministry that he

519
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,160
recognizes, you know, what's
going on in Masonry and that

520
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,160
there's something to this?
Yeah.

521
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,760
And I couldn't really say, but I
know that so Masonry has a

522
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,760
bifurcated priesthood, so they
have an ironic and a melchized

523
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,560
priesthood.
And so at least by the time that

524
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,960
Joseph Smith brings in Aaronic
and and Melchizedek Priesthood,

525
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,760
I think he's recognizing there
that, you know, there's this

526
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,480
connection.
So I think that in so many ways

527
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:38,600
he's fascinated when we get the
Egyptian influence come into

528
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,360
Freemason, into Mormonism with
the mummies that come to

529
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,800
Kirtland and Joseph is
translating the Book of Abraham,

530
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,160
I think he's seeing a lot of
connections with a Masonry at

531
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,480
that time because Masonry had a
lot of influence from the

532
00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:01,960
Egyptian secrets.
And so I think he's, I think

533
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,080
he's seeing it all over the
place.

534
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,880
Gotcha, gotcha.
So when when he gets down to

535
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,560
really getting the the temple
ceremony together, right now,

536
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,600
I'm not gonna go into the
Masonic or the the Mormon temple

537
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,639
ceremony because I want to be
respectful to to both of those

538
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:28,159
traditions.
But the dramas, if you will,

539
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:30,719
that take place in there are
vastly different.

540
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,280
Right.
So often I think that that for

541
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,360
maybe some of our our, our.
And I'm gonna use the term

542
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:42,000
Christian here referring to to
you know evangelicalism or or

543
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,800
that sort of thing.
I think when they hear that you

544
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:50,120
know hey Joseph stole the the
Masonic rites and that's how the

545
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,080
Mormons have their temples.
Now how much weight does that

546
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,200
carry for from a scholarly
perspective, especially one like

547
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,280
yourself who's who's, who's
studied masonry in depth, But

548
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,200
also you're someone who has been
through the temple, so you

549
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,440
understand the drama there it
that's not a fair assessment in

550
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,440
your mind?
Is it that he just stole it

551
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,360
whole cloth from from the
Masons?

552
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,880
No, not at all.
But we do see that, right at the

553
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:21,520
time in Masonry, what was
happening was that it was

554
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:27,080
perfectly acceptable for people
to develop new rituals.

555
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:33,800
So during that time you would
have certain lodges get together

556
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,960
and make like an Egyptian ritual
or Native American ritual or

557
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,160
something like that.
And that was they were appendant

558
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:43,360
degrees.
They didn't.

559
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,960
We had the three Blue Lodge
degrees, but then we had all

560
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,560
kinds of degrees in the United
States that people were coming

561
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,400
up with during this 1840 period,
1840s period.

562
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:58,000
And they were really
interesting.

563
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,960
They would make make these
rituals and and that wasn't

564
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,960
frowned upon.
And so for Joseph Smith to

565
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,760
develop a ritual that was
similar to Mason Masonry and

566
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:16,360
that was using the same kind of
presentation, that wasn't

567
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,320
unusual.
And so I don't think that that's

568
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,360
what the other Masonic lodges
were critical of him for.

569
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,400
They never said they never
criticized him.

570
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,920
Other Masons didn't criticize
him for coming up with a ritual.

571
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,680
They didn't say he's copying
Masonic ritual.

572
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,400
And we don't like this.
You know, that was OK with them.

573
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:43,200
And So what he was doing was
using Masonry and developing

574
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:48,440
ritual around a certain method
of presentation.

575
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,920
And we do have some things that
are very, very similar to

576
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,840
Masonry and then we have others
that as you said that like the

577
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:01,120
Adam and Eve in the garden is
different than what the the

578
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:06,240
Masons presentation of their
their ritual was so.

579
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,480
So you're seeing.
Some real differences.

580
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,840
Wow.
So you didn't find, you didn't

581
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,040
find anywhere where other Masons
were critical of Joseph during

582
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:17,680
this time?
Not for that.

583
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,760
I mean there are other reasons.
They mainly were really upset

584
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,520
that they were bringing so many
men into the lodge.

585
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,120
They were saying you're you're
going too fast, you're you're

586
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,840
making the Masons really fast.
Like they would get 1° one day

587
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,400
and the next they get their
second degree and a week later

588
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,600
get their third degree.
When in other places it would

589
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,440
take a month to go through each
degree.

590
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,480
And and like I said, there were
so many hundreds and hundreds of

591
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,840
men coming into the lodge.
By the time that Joseph Smith or

592
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:53,360
by the time that Brigham Young
left Nauvoo, there were like as

593
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,680
at least 1500 men that we can
identify and I think a lot more

594
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:01,200
that we can't identify because
there are many other Mormon

595
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,920
lodges around the area and they
were doing the same thing.

596
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,760
And so that was what they were
getting criticized for.

597
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,000
They weren't getting criticized
for new ritual.

598
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,280
They weren't getting criticized
for bringing women in because

599
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,000
the Relief Society was sort of
almost like a a lodge for women.

600
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,760
But they weren't getting
criticized for that either, so

601
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,440
that's at least not from other
Masons.

602
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,600
You know, did not have a problem
with that.

603
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,840
So isn't that interesting?
That's that's fascinating,

604
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,280
right.
Because you know, there there

605
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,440
are, you know there there have
been.

606
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,520
I guess the right word would be
allegations that it was Masons,

607
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,680
some Masons involved in the in
the mob that killed Joseph.

608
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,880
I didn't see any evidence of
that when I studied it out.

609
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:50,760
Now let me say this, there were
enough Masons running around at

610
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,240
the time, right, that it would
be like, I, I don't know, you're

611
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:57,200
you're bound to get one or two
in there, right.

612
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,680
That doesn't mean that that's
indicative of Masonry.

613
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,200
That means that.
Yes, in.

614
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:02,560
The Book I.
Actually went through.

615
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,640
I actually went through in the
book to see how many Masons

616
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,440
there would have been in those
lodges right there in that area.

617
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,240
And it wasn't more than like 20,
you know, So it's like it wasn't

618
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:15,160
like there were hundreds of
Masons that were there, you

619
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,040
know, trying to kill Joseph
Smith.

620
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,160
So we we have the names of them.
We know, we know exactly who

621
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,680
they were.
And it there's no indication

622
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,440
that they were.
I mean, there may have been

623
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,320
Masons in the crowd, as you
said, but it wasn't, you know,

624
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,200
it wasn't a huge group of them.
No.

625
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,360
And and I think it's also worth
pointing out too that that

626
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,920
Masonry didn't just, it wasn't
something that that even people

627
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,200
who weren't Masons weren't aware
of, right.

628
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,960
I mean there's a large part of
our the the way that Congress

629
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,040
started doing their their their
meetings right there when they

630
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,640
hold held the session of
conference.

631
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,080
It was often the same sort of
procedures that were used in

632
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,480
Masonry, right.
You know, the recognizing of

633
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,280
people, the talk when there was
councils.

634
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:09,520
It it had a a massive impact on
the United States at large, I

635
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:10,840
also yes.
That's.

636
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:13,760
True.
OK, Sorry, I didn't want to cut

637
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,800
you off there.
The the other thing I'd say is

638
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,280
even even some of our vernacular
have Masonic overtones when we

639
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,880
say it's a square deal, right,
that refers to that has Masonic

640
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,800
roots.
And so it it it kind of

641
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,760
permeated American culture by
and large to this day as as

642
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:41,320
Joseph begins to really
implement temple teachings and

643
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:46,160
temple ideas.
Not just the drama but the idea

644
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,920
of of ceilings and temple work
and that sort of thing.

645
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,560
Is there anything overly Masonic
in in those teachings?

646
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,440
Well, I mean the the Masons had
something that was like a

647
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:03,840
fraternal tie and they also
applied it to, like their

648
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,880
families as well, that they were
bound in a chain, you know, the

649
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,720
bright, eternal chain.
And so I think that this is

650
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:15,600
something that's not unfamiliar
to Mason's and perhaps could

651
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,800
have even influenced Joseph
Smith's thinking as well.

652
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,440
But So what were you asking
about that?

653
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,960
What?
The feelings, yeah, when it

654
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,960
comes to temple doctrine.
Do we see anything overtly

655
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,040
Mason, in the temple doctrine?
I have so much I.

656
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:32,640
Really.
Do I see a lot?

657
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,800
Yeah, I do see a lot in in it's
throughout the book it talks

658
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:44,120
about these things.
So for example the the just

659
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,080
coming into the presence of God
and the way the celestial

660
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,160
ascent.
A lot of writers have said that

661
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,880
Masons don't have celestial
ascent.

662
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,560
Well, yes, actually their whole
ritual is all about celestial

663
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,520
ascent.
And I think I use a whole entire

664
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:04,120
chapter to show how Masons,
their temple ritual is or their

665
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:09,520
their ceremonies are to come
into the presence of God and to

666
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,240
do a celestial scent, including
going upstairs and everything

667
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:17,280
else.
So I think that that was very

668
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:23,840
similar that as he gets into the
temple ritual that it is, it is

669
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,920
very similar to Freemasonry.
And so some people, that's why

670
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,080
some people like to say to in
order to explain this.

671
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,760
They like to say that.
Want more from the Mormon

672
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,440
Renegade Podcast?
Head over to the Mormon Renegade

673
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,360
Rumble page to see all the
videos from the podcast and the

674
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,520
Fundamental news Program for
free.

675
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,920
Still not enough?
Then join the Mormon Renegade

676
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,000
Locals page by clicking the red
join button.

677
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,600
And for $5 a month, you can have
access to podcast transcripts,

678
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,120
Renegade exclusives, as well as
weekly live stream show with the

679
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,080
host Dave Sanders.
Click the link in this episode's

680
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,040
show notes today.
That they're all based on sort

681
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:18,280
of an eternal, you know, an
ancient or an eternal model.

682
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:23,520
And so Joseph was accessing this
and Masons are accessing this.

683
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,760
So a lot of people say that.
And then you can look at it

684
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,160
another way and say that Joseph
was taking this these ideas from

685
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,240
Masonry as well.
So we really don't know exactly

686
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:38,560
what how those thoughts got from
Masonry to Mormonism, but we

687
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:43,320
just do see a very strong
similarity in all the temple

688
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,280
work with with Masonry.
Absolutely.

689
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,440
You know, I think it's worth
pointing out too that that the

690
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,040
idea that that Mormons have
isn't really unique.

691
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,200
This idea of deification, if you
will.

692
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,320
I don't know if that's a real
word, but that's one I'm gonna

693
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,520
use because we can even see
that.

694
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,120
I believe it's in the the the
federal Capitol building where

695
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,520
it shows there there's a mural
and I remember seeing it where

696
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,360
it shows Washington essentially
being taken up.

697
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,840
Right.
And and I don't think that that

698
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:21,160
that idea of deification or the
celestial ascent is is totally

699
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,440
uniquely Mormon.
I think it is in in context of

700
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,160
religion, right.
I don't, I don't see a lot of

701
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,760
other Christian religions
talking about that that

702
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:35,040
celestial ascent so to speak.
But it it was it was around

703
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,440
right there were there were
other flavors of that I I guess

704
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,200
let let me ask this question,
'cause this is one that that

705
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,240
I've been curious about a little
bit.

706
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:50,160
Do we see any connections with
like plural marriage and

707
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,560
Masonry?
Does?

708
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,560
Does Joseph's Masonic
background, so to speak, have

709
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,960
any bearing on that theology?
I do not see much of that at

710
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,120
all, except for the fact that
Solomon is a big figure in

711
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,520
Freemasonry.
And of course we know Solomon's

712
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,160
the one in the Bible that had so
many wives.

713
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,800
But I don't see a direct
connection with plural marriage

714
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:11,960
at all.
OK.

715
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:13,280
All right.
No, that's good.

716
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:19,160
Let me ask this question and and
maybe this cause you dealt with

717
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:20,920
it a little bit in the book, but
not a lot.

718
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:25,320
I want to go past Joseph's time
now and I want to go into to

719
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,960
kind of that early Utah period
with Brigham Young.

720
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,280
OK.
Do we see Brigham continuing on

721
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,520
this idea of having Masonic
lodges in Salt Lake in Utah?

722
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,800
So I think Masonry was always
important to Brigham because we

723
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,520
do see him preaching.
Some of his talks we have in the

724
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,040
Journal of Discourses reference
Masonry in a positive way.

725
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,240
So I think he always had this
feeling of affinity with

726
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:55,960
Masonry.
But he also did blame he really

727
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,400
blamed Masons for Joseph Smith's
death.

728
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,880
And several people thought that
when Joseph Smith was falling

729
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,040
out the window and he said, oh
Lord, my God, that he was

730
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,200
starting the Masonic.
Plea.

731
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,000
Of Lord my God, is there no help
for the widow's son.

732
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:22,000
And so Brigham Young interpreted
it as if there were Masons in

733
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,680
the crowd.
They should have helped at that

734
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,600
period at that point, you know,
And they didn't help.

735
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,120
And he was very angry with how
Masons had treated Joseph Smith.

736
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,520
So he did not continue the
Masonic Lodge.

737
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,320
When they got to Utah.
He decided that that would not

738
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,720
be part of the religion going
forward.

739
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,160
So there was actually just kind
of a split.

740
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,160
There were other people that
gentiles that came in and formed

741
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,840
a Masonic Lodge in Utah, but
break in would not allow the

742
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,400
Mormons to join that lodge.
And that in fact continued until

743
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,160
like the 1970s where Mormons
were not allowed to.

744
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,800
At least in Utah and other
states they were.

745
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,320
But in Utah, they were not
allowed to join a Masonic Lodge

746
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,160
and still have a good could.
Their membership would be in

747
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,240
jeopardy if they did such a
thing.

748
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,400
Gotcha.
No, that makes that makes a lot

749
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,120
of sense.
What do you think overall and

750
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,960
and this is something I always
like to ask on these kind of

751
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:27,440
topics because I'm not a guy who
is angling for for the

752
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,320
destruction of of any Mormon
sect, right.

753
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,240
I just don't have that in me.
What do you say to people when

754
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,280
people?
What would you tell people as as

755
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,560
they look at these old documents
they find stuff on Joseph and

756
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,840
Masonry and they get freaked out
right?

757
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,760
They they all of a sudden start
questioning well gosh is is is

758
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,800
the temple ritual valid because
it has has stuff from Masonry in

759
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,640
it?
How do you answer that question?

760
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,400
Well, I mean, I think first of
all I like and This is why I

761
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,160
think the book is still going to
be important like years from

762
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:01,520
now.
I think it's gonna always be

763
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:07,080
important to look at this book
because I think that we can see

764
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:11,240
what appealed to Joseph Smith
about Freemasonry and what was

765
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:15,080
beautiful about Freemasonry,
what was, you know, lovely and

766
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,240
of good report that he really
liked.

767
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,520
And why was he involved in
Freemasonry?

768
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,320
Because there's these good
things about it, you know,

769
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,960
because there's this beautiful
fraternity of men.

770
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:32,240
There's this, this helping of
the poor and the widows and

771
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,600
there's this beautiful
esotericism, symbolism and

772
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,280
wanting to draw closer to God
and to become good men, good

773
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,440
people.
So first of all I think I would

774
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,880
point to that is cause so many
people are afraid that Masonry

775
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,440
is devilish.
And why would Justice Smith want

776
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,760
to be involved in the secret
society that was so devilish?

777
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,880
But so first of all, I think
they need to realize what the

778
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,800
good things were.
And also back in the 1840s,

779
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,600
Masonry had such a Christian
emphasis as well.

780
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,680
They looked, they brought many
things in from the Old

781
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,320
Testament, but it was a
Christian view of the Old

782
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,120
Testament.
Like they believed that the Old

783
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:21,640
Testament people were performing
Christian, you know, symbolism

784
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:26,040
was happening.
So I I really like to point to

785
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,800
that so people aren't afraid of
Freemasonry and they realize

786
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,800
that Joseph could have seen
something good in Freemasonry.

787
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,600
And also just not to worry so
much about that their

788
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,080
similarities in the temple.
Because if Joseph felt that

789
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,640
these things could teach someone
something about religion or

790
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,520
about God, then you know what's
the problem with using them.

791
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:52,680
But they were part of society at
the time and it would be a good

792
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,480
thing to bring those in because
people are familiar with them

793
00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:00,200
and they helped them, you know,
understand certain things that

794
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,160
they might not understand any
other way, OK?

795
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,160
With that in mind, you 'cause
you brought up that word again,

796
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,880
esotericism, right?
And that's something that I

797
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:15,080
found a lot in the in the book.
Could you explain the audience

798
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,160
what you mean by that?
So, Well, the word esoteric just

799
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,760
means hidden, right?
It's a secret, you know.

800
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:26,440
And so Joseph was doing many
things with secret and and

801
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,000
hidden.
Hidden is the word I'm looking

802
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,120
for.
So we know a lot of times when

803
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,080
we're learning something in
religion that it's hidden to our

804
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,400
view.
And so we sort of have to learn

805
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,280
in a religious sort of way, in a
spiritual sort of a way.

806
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,680
We have to learn certain things
before we can see what's hidden,

807
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,800
you know?
And so I think that that's what

808
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,800
that's what's So what I love
about things like the book of

809
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:56,880
Isaiah and and a lot of things
in the 19th century and

810
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,440
especially in Freemasonry and
ritual, that there's something

811
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:07,320
hidden or or secret or hidden
that we can grow spiritually to

812
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,440
a point where we're able to see
these hidden things.

813
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,240
I don't.
Know no I I think I think I

814
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:17,680
think I think you're you're 100%
correct and and sometimes I

815
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:23,200
think that's easier for for
converts to Mormonism whatever

816
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,360
flavor again that is is at least
for me and and I won't speak for

817
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:32,680
anybody else but I have heard
others say this certainly for me

818
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:38,800
as as I heard as I found out
about work for the dead right

819
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,000
that was a big thing to me as a
young man.

820
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:46,120
My father passes when I'm young
and I have questions right?

821
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,160
Where does he go?
Where what happens?

822
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,320
And so when?
When these things are taught to

823
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,640
me, it's not so much this idea
of I've discovered something new

824
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,000
but but rather a a remembering,
so to speak.

825
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,520
And sometimes I think that that
that word esotericism can can

826
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,400
really describe that that
process of yes, it's a

827
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,000
discovery, but it's not
discovery as in something brand

828
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,160
new.
It's a discovery and something

829
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:17,720
of I remember and I think, I
think Masonry obviously offered

830
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:22,440
something of that sort to be
able to to not just appeal to

831
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,280
Joseph, but also to appeal to
guys like Washington and

832
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:30,280
Franklin and Jefferson and all
those guys who who really pushed

833
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,560
forward the the American
experiment.

834
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,200
And yeah, sometimes I don't feel
like it.

835
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,680
It gets enough enough credit
for, for doing that.

836
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:42,240
So yeah.
I agree.

837
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:47,560
So as as Joseph in in your
estimation, how pivotal was

838
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:51,280
Masonry to to Joseph's doctrinal
theology?

839
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,680
If you were going to put a bow
on the whole thing, just how,

840
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,760
how valuable was it to Joseph?
I think very valuable, but it's

841
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:00,960
hard to really say.
I mean, you can't really put a

842
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,680
percent like 50% or, you know,
you can't really do that.

843
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,840
I mean, I just think that it was
very valuable to him and he used

844
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,320
it.
But here's a criticism that we

845
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,320
get a lot with the book.
A lot of people say that our

846
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:18,520
book is Sees Masonry and
everything other influences on

847
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,640
Joseph besides Masonry.
And The thing is that we we

848
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:25,040
agree with that and we in fact
we say that several times in the

849
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,000
book and in our promotional
material we say, yes, there are

850
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,920
other things that came into
Mormonism besides Masonry, but

851
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,320
everybody wants to say that our
book is just dealing with

852
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:40,480
Masonry.
Well, yeah, that's because

853
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:44,280
that's why we wrote the book, is
to show with the Masonic

854
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,120
influence.
I don't feel like I need to, you

855
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,240
know, talk about 20 other
influences because that's not

856
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:52,440
what my book is about, That's
what other books are about.

857
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:57,600
So I do feel that there were
many, many other influences on

858
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,000
Joseph's life that went into
Mormonism.

859
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,560
So.
So I don't want to say that I

860
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:09,440
don't that Masonry had this much
percent or that much percent or

861
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:14,120
but but I do feel that it was
one of the important influences

862
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,760
on Joseph as he as the religion
was developing so.

863
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,000
Right.
No, no, I I I would agree with

864
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,600
you and but but see I don't
think people and and this is

865
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,760
where I think I might differ a
little bit from from some other

866
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:35,000
folks is that I expect to see
some things that aren't

867
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,080
necessarily unique to just
Mormonism.

868
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,760
Right.
I believe it was Brigham Young

869
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,120
who said all, all truth belongs
to Mormonism.

870
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:47,200
Right.
And so if that's the case and

871
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,680
and there's scattered truth all
over, well, I would expect to

872
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:55,040
see, you know, a little bit here
from from, from Catholicism here

873
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,880
from Evangelicalism or
Protestantism of its day.

874
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:04,160
I would expect to see see truth
coming in from Masonry and and

875
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:08,120
all these things I think are
really what what make up the

876
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,720
gospel right now.
Certainly I don't want to take

877
00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:14,200
away from from Joseph being a
doctrinal innovator because he

878
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,040
absolutely was.
I think, I think his, you know

879
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,640
the theology he puts forth on
vicarious work for the dead.

880
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,160
I think that's pretty unique to
Joseph Smith.

881
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,440
I don't see that in very many
other religions.

882
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,840
So.
So I'm not taking away from from

883
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,480
his prophetic counsel or excuse
me, his prophetic calling.

884
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:39,000
And I don't think Masonry has to
be something we look at and say,

885
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,600
well, that means that that
Joseph's not a prophet anymore

886
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:44,000
if we see that.
Right.

887
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,840
And I think that's the primary
fear is that if we accept that

888
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:52,000
Joseph got anything from Masonry
that we're saying that he did

889
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,120
not get inspired and that he's
not a prophet and that he wasn't

890
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:59,280
inspired spiritually or from,
you know, the divine.

891
00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:03,440
And I don't think that we have
to make that choice.

892
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,280
I think that he can bring things
in from different places and

893
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,400
still be inspired as to what he
brings in.

894
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:16,200
And you know, he gets, he gets
revelation, he gets a little bit

895
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:20,080
here, a little bit there.
And you know, if he starts

896
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,640
bringing in the wrong things, he
gets inspired to not use them

897
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:30,200
anymore because they're wrong.
So yeah, I I feel like that that

898
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,680
all has a part and you don't
have to be afraid of it.

899
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:36,160
No.
And and the other thing I would

900
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:41,240
say is that I think I think that
in some ways the fact that that

901
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:45,400
Joseph recognizes something in
in Masonry just like he

902
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,840
recognized certain eternal
truths in Catholicism and in in

903
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:54,200
Evangelicalism and all these
other things and and he so he

904
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,680
takes all those and and he looks
at it and then gets revelation.

905
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,120
I think that's a big, a big
pattern.

906
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,320
I think we as Mormons should
follow, right?

907
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:05,920
Because I think that's one of
the promises of Mormonism is

908
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,520
this idea that that you know and
you kind of see it in Joseph's

909
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,120
writings of hey, I've had my
revelatory experiences and you

910
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:17,560
can too, right.
And so if we open enough, right.

911
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,600
You don't want to be a a mutual
friend of ours has once said you

912
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,080
don't you want to be open
minded, but not open minded

913
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:25,400
enough that your brain falls
out.

914
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,480
Right.
So let let let let me say that

915
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,840
but if if we're well grounded
and well anchored to the gospel

916
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,040
I I think that would be
something Joseph would be eager

917
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:37,560
for us to continue.
Right.

918
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:41,040
Go get your your your own
experiences here a little bit

919
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,920
right and make sure you're
anchored and tethered to to to

920
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,160
the gospel.
But you shouldn't worry about

921
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,360
diving into something and
finding something that you feel.

922
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,240
Gosh, I I kind of connect with
this a little bit this this

923
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,600
speaks to my heart and then take
that and pray about it 'cause

924
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,240
you might get something out of
it And and I think Joseph really

925
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,480
sets that pattern here and I'm
kind of like you I I never read

926
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:11,360
his his brushes with with
masonry if you will and got

927
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,440
freaked out about it.
I just think well I I think this

928
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,920
is kind of a gift in some ways
for us as members.

929
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:21,240
I think it shows how Joseph went
through the revelatory process

930
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,920
and and you know if we're trying
to get revelation on something,

931
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,440
I mean of course we would do our
research first, right.

932
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:34,720
And and I find that to be to be
hugely, hugely supportive in in

933
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:39,200
my walk as as a Mormon because
again we want to do the things

934
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,680
Joseph did.
He, I think he set a pattern for

935
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:42,680
us.
Definitely do.

936
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:47,280
We see, we talked about the,
the, the, the two different

937
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:51,120
priesthoods, the Aaronic and the
Melchizedek and you you

938
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,000
mentioned that that Masonry had
something similar.

939
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,520
Now they didn't call them
priesthoods though, did they?

940
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,520
Yes, they called it the Aaronic
and the Melchizedek Priesthood.

941
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:04,360
Isn't that really fascinating?
The OK yes isn't.

942
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,720
That fascinating.
And and were they broke up into

943
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:11,560
quorums like like we have in
Mormonism today?

944
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,720
Not in quite the same way, no.
OK, OK, awesome.

945
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,840
Well, Cheryl, is there anything
else that you feel like we

946
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,720
brushed over that you wanted to
go into deeper?

947
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,680
I don't know.
I just, I I wanted to tell you

948
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:31,240
that I I've got a couple more
books coming out like this at

949
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,840
the end of this month and well,
they don't have quite as much to

950
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,360
do with Freemasonry, but one is
about plural marriage.

951
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:43,400
I have a book where I've taken
essays from many different

952
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:48,240
people who Mormons who write
about plural marriage, and so

953
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:54,400
it's called Secret Covenants,
New Insights on Mormon Plural

954
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,160
Marriage.
And that one's coming at the end

955
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,880
of the month.
And then I also have one on

956
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:02,160
William Marx.
I don't know if you've heard of

957
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,880
William Marx, but he was an
early church leader in Nauvoo

958
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:10,080
that many people thought should
succeed Joseph Smith after he

959
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,680
died.
And because Brigham did he.

960
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:15,080
Kind of.
You know, was pushed off to the

961
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:18,960
side and we don't now we don't
hear about him as much, but he

962
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:22,600
had a lot of influence in early
Mormonism, so that's gonna be an

963
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,760
interesting biography to do.
You mind if I pick your brain?

964
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,400
Do you have a moment that I
could pick your brain on your

965
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,880
book about about plural marriage
'cause obviously I'm a

966
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:35,480
fundamentalist and that's kind
of a big thing of.

967
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,960
Course.
What inspired you to do that?

968
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,920
Oh, plural marriage is so
fascinating to me because I do.

969
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:48,920
OK, so lately we've have a group
of people, many people in fact,

970
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,760
who are starting to push this
idea that Joseph Smith never

971
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:58,320
taught or practiced polygamy.
And so I've become very

972
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:02,400
interested in this because
Mormon historians like me are

973
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,560
generally saying, oh, they don't
they?

974
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,000
That's stupid.
Of course, everyone knows that

975
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,400
Joseph practiced polygamy, but
these people are making very

976
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,840
good points because we do have
very little contemporary

977
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,640
evidence that there was polygamy
before Joseph Smith died.

978
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:24,680
And so, and many of the things
that we do have are problematic.

979
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:30,680
And so many people are listening
to this idea and thinking that

980
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,880
plural marriage started with
Joseph Smith and not Brigham

981
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,440
Young or, yeah, Brigham Young,
not Joseph Smith.

982
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,720
So I feel like that historians
should take this seriously

983
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:45,680
because so much of our research
and what's been written on

984
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:49,560
plural marriage is outdated.
We have Brian Hill's trilogy is

985
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:53,640
like 10 years old now and same
with Todd Compton's.

986
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:59,080
And sacred loneliness is.
And these people are bringing

987
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:03,640
out new documents that have come
out since the Joseph Smith

988
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:06,120
papers and not that we don't
know about them, but we haven't

989
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,200
analyzed them in depth.
So anyway, so I think it's

990
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:12,120
really important to address what
they're saying because they have

991
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:15,720
a good point.
And I still believe that Joseph

992
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:17,840
practiced polygamy and taught
polygamy.

993
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,920
But I need to have the
documentation to show these

994
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,040
people that I, you know that
that I'm not just, you know,

995
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:26,760
making this up.
Yeah.

996
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,800
That we're not just making this
up and that it actually did

997
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:30,840
happen.
So.

998
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:33,960
So that's important.
And then there's different

999
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,640
aspects that we go into in the
book as well.

1000
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,760
Like Todd Compton wrote a book
about or an article or chapter.

1001
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:47,560
Sorry about were there eternity
only marriages?

1002
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:52,080
Where in Nauvoo were there any
marriages where people were

1003
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:56,440
sealed for eternity only and not
for time and eternity?

1004
01:02:56,760 --> 01:03:00,000
And he makes a really good case.
And that's an interesting

1005
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,680
article.
My chapter is about Emma Smith.

1006
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:09,480
So we know that Emma denied that
Joseph Smith ever lived polygamy

1007
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:13,160
till the end of her life.
So why was that?

1008
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,920
And what motivation could she
have had?

1009
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,080
And so that's what my chapter
goes into.

1010
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,200
So there's just different
different chapters that address

1011
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,880
some of these issues that we're
facing recently.

1012
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:29,680
So I, I don't want you to give
away the book, 'cause I'm still

1013
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:34,640
a fan of capitalism.
But but let's let let let me ask

1014
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,120
you this.
What was your take away of Emma

1015
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:39,120
on that?
Because I've always found this

1016
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:42,760
fascinating, right?
Because I and I try to be

1017
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:49,040
careful in in my certainly as a
guy who's got two wives, I I,

1018
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,200
you know, I'm not so blind to
say I don't have a vested

1019
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:53,760
interest here, 'cause I do,
right.

1020
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:57,720
I mean, it's my family.
But at the same time, there are

1021
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,720
certain things that I see Emma
do, especially after Joseph

1022
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:04,080
dies, which I got to admit,
sticking my craw a little bit

1023
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:07,400
right where I'm like, OK, what
what are we doing here?

1024
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:12,560
Do you have, did you get any any
sort of of idea of what happened

1025
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,400
here?
So what I end up doing in this

1026
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:20,000
chapter is I give 3
possibilities of you know why

1027
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,640
she could have done this, why
why this happened.

1028
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,720
And I'm not going to tell you
what all three were, but I do.

1029
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:30,600
All I'll do is I'll throw out a
question because many of the

1030
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:35,680
later polygamists in Utah would
be asked, well, why did you deny

1031
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:37,200
it?
Why did Joseph deny it?

1032
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:41,680
Polygamy when he was in novel.
Why did you personally deny you

1033
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,840
were living polygamy?
And they always said, well, we

1034
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,320
didn't, you know, we tried to,
we tried to be honest, but we

1035
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:50,280
didn't.
You know, we said maybe we

1036
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,800
weren't living spiritual wifery,
which they considered to be a

1037
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:57,320
different thing than celestial
plural marriage.

1038
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:01,080
Or they'd, you know, they'd kind
of beat around the Bush and but

1039
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,720
they basically, they denied it.
They denied they were living it

1040
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,040
at the time before the death of
Joseph Smith.

1041
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:13,080
Publicly, that's what they did.
And so now we have Emma, who's

1042
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,720
denying it.
And suddenly when the Saints

1043
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:22,440
moved to Utah, they don't give
Emma the same grace that they

1044
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,280
give themselves when they were
lying about it.

1045
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:30,000
You know, they thought that
maybe possibly could Emma have

1046
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:34,000
been felt that this was like a
kind of a covenant thing that

1047
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,040
she had always promised never to
reveal, you know?

1048
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,960
That's fascinating.
Right.

1049
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:45,760
But there's several others.
But I I think that we can give

1050
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:49,640
her the same kind of grace that
we gave Joseph Smith when he was

1051
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,160
denying it.
You know, if we believe that he

1052
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:56,240
was practicing it, yet denying
at the same time, then why don't

1053
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,120
we allow Emma to do the same
thing, you know?

1054
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,440
I I think you could definitely
be on to something there.

1055
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,560
Absolutely.
I, you know, I I've, I've dealt

1056
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:09,520
with this quite a bit actually
and even on the podcast right.

1057
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,600
I I've made a big push and
again, I'm not a trained

1058
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,520
historian, right.
But I am a guy who understands

1059
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,840
you know, hierarchy of sources
those sorts of things.

1060
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:23,680
And and the the evidence for me
seems overwhelming always did

1061
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,360
that, that these things were
practiced.

1062
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:30,440
These things were lived.
And it did force me to say, OK,

1063
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:35,000
so why wasn't Joseph completely
forward with practicing plural

1064
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,560
marriage in Nauvoo and why is it
Brigham Young is so forward

1065
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,840
about it, right if if you
didn't?

1066
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:41,880
Well, wait, can I?
Can I?

1067
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,000
Can I burst in here because I
had to burst in?

1068
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:46,840
Absolutely.
If Brigham Young.

1069
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,600
If Brigham Young had died at the
same time Joseph did, we would

1070
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:54,240
never know that Brigham
practiced it either, because he

1071
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:59,920
did not admit to it until later.
Absolutely, absolutely.

1072
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:00,960
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.

1073
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,720
It's not like it's not like he
was forthright or anyone else

1074
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:07,320
was forthright about their
practicing polygamy during that

1075
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,040
time, that short period of time.
Absolutely.

1076
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:13,560
And and let's put it into
context on why they may might be

1077
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:15,560
a little tight lipped about this
whole thing, right.

1078
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:19,400
They wanted to kill Joseph
because he said he had another

1079
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,240
book of scripture.
OK, just just that.

1080
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:26,560
That was enough to get him and
his followers driven from New

1081
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:30,040
York to Ohio to Missouri right
now.

1082
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,080
What happens if you upset the
applecart by upsetting

1083
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:36,200
everybody's Victorian
sensibilities with this idea of

1084
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:37,760
plural marriage?
Right.

1085
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:40,680
You want to talk about pitch
pitchforks and torches?

1086
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,520
That would have been huge.
And so the question gets asked,

1087
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:45,320
well, why is Brigham so open
about it?

1088
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:48,680
Well, Brigham's not even in the
United States, right?

1089
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:53,000
The Mormons left the country.
And so Brigham's got a certain

1090
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:58,360
level of economy that just was
not afforded to Joseph in his

1091
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:02,240
day because of of his
geographical location in the

1092
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,800
population that he was working
with and working in at the time.

1093
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:07,800
And.
And I think all those have to be

1094
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:11,560
taken into consideration when
when you ask that question

1095
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:14,240
about, well, why doesn't Joseph
ever just come out and say it?

1096
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:17,920
I I did find it interesting that
you brought up the term

1097
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:22,640
spiritual wifery there a little
bit because in papers that were

1098
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,920
coming from the East, you did
see that that the conflation of

1099
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,840
celestial plural marriage and
spiritual wifery were the same

1100
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:33,520
thing, but the early Saints
didn't understand it that way.

1101
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:37,920
Is that correct?
This is a very deep question

1102
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,800
because there were people that
did call early celestial plural

1103
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:46,000
marriage spiritual wifery,
wifery.

1104
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:50,760
I call it wifery.
So we do have evidence of that.

1105
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:56,240
But at a certain point they
started saying that John

1106
01:08:56,240 --> 01:09:01,359
Bennett's type of kind of
immorality was spiritual wifery

1107
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,640
and that celestial plural
marriage was something different

1108
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,359
that included a ceremony and
eternal marriage, that kind of

1109
01:09:08,359 --> 01:09:11,240
thing.
So they there was an early push

1110
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:13,600
to differentiate the two of
those things.

1111
01:09:14,279 --> 01:09:17,359
But I'm not going to say that
they never used that term

1112
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:20,920
because we do have documentation
that they did.

1113
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:25,160
But but very early they wanted
to differentiate what

1114
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,600
unauthorized plural marriage was
and what the authorized

1115
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:31,439
celestial plural marriage was.
So.

1116
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,880
So what was John Bennett doing
that was different than, say,

1117
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:36,560
what Joseph or Brigham was
doing?

1118
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:41,000
Yeah, So John Bennett was
basically it was adultery and

1119
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:45,120
fornication he was committing
and they did not have a ceremony

1120
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:47,960
to go along with it where they
were, you know, bound together

1121
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:52,359
eternally.
And he said he told the women

1122
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:56,440
that as long as nobody found out
about it, it was OK.

1123
01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:00,280
So as long as they kept it
secret that what they were doing

1124
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:02,440
was fine.
So you can see that that was

1125
01:10:02,440 --> 01:10:06,960
very different than what we
picture Joseph Smith's, you

1126
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:11,360
know, eternal for marriage is.
That's fascinating.

1127
01:10:11,440 --> 01:10:13,680
That is, that is absolutely
fascinating.

1128
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:17,120
And and so when?
When this book's going to be out

1129
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:21,200
at the end of this month.
Yes, it's actually on Amazon.

1130
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:25,840
You can, you can look on Amazon
actually, just like put on

1131
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,160
Amazon.
My name's Cheryl L Bruno and

1132
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:32,880
that book will come up and you
can pre-order it and it will

1133
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:36,040
come to you by May 30th or by
May 20th.

1134
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:38,200
The other book will be out by
May 30th.

1135
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:39,800
Yeah.
That's awesome.

1136
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,520
I'm I'm everybody needs to go
get a copy.

1137
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:44,000
That's.
Oh, I hope so.

1138
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:46,520
I hope so.
It's really fascinating and it's

1139
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:53,280
being done by the most scholarly
Mormon historians that know a

1140
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:56,520
lot about the subject, so it's
very good.

1141
01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:01,120
What was your big take away out
of out of going that in depth on

1142
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:04,320
plural marriage?
I mean what what was it that you

1143
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:07,400
took away from that after doing
doing the research, Cheryl?

1144
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,480
I guess like in the preface, I
talk about how there were people

1145
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:17,040
that we respect, The authors
respect those people that lived

1146
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:20,920
plural marriage either willingly
or grudgingly or

1147
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,520
enthusiastically.
And I guess my take away is that

1148
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:27,760
plural marriage like appealed to
people in many different ways.

1149
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:29,840
Some were doing it because they
felt it was a religious

1150
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:32,760
obligation.
Some saw it as, you know, a

1151
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:36,880
grand religious principle that
they were lucky to be able to be

1152
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,160
involved in.
And so there are many, many

1153
01:11:39,160 --> 01:11:40,800
motivations.
That's my big take away.

1154
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:43,880
So many different motivations
for living this principle.

1155
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:49,480
And I feel like same thing today
among polygamists as well as

1156
01:11:49,480 --> 01:11:53,600
there could be many motivations
behind doing what they what

1157
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:57,880
they're doing.
So that's why we have to kind of

1158
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:02,880
look at all of them and we can't
just compartmentalize and just

1159
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,240
say that they were doing it for
one reason only.

1160
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:08,240
You know, it was kind of all
over the place and just so

1161
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:12,960
fascinating, very interesting.
So did you find like as you went

1162
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:15,840
through like original sources,
did you find that it did run

1163
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,360
that gamut?
Like people, people were were

1164
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:22,520
doing it grudgingly because they
wanted to quote, you know,

1165
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:24,960
follow God's law.
And then there were others who

1166
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:27,360
were just like, we're we're in
this to win it and we're going

1167
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:29,680
to go forward and we're going to
have a smile on our face doing

1168
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:31,360
it.
I mean, did you see the the

1169
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:33,920
gamut there?
Well, yeah, I mean, yes, we see

1170
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:37,880
sources of people say that you
know you're you're gonna have

1171
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:41,160
more glory in the eternal life
if you practice this principle.

1172
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,120
And I think they were, they were
excited about that and

1173
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:47,240
enthusiastic about it to live
something.

1174
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:50,960
I don't know, in a way they
were, they were freeing

1175
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:55,600
themselves from like societal
constraints almost seems like.

1176
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,920
And then others were like, well,
the prophet said to do it.

1177
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:01,920
I believe it came from God.
So I guess I'll do it.

1178
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:09,600
It's not gonna be fun, you know.
But so they they're all over the

1179
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:11,480
place.
But they're people, you know?

1180
01:13:11,480 --> 01:13:15,920
And that's what's so interesting
about how people respond to this

1181
01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:18,400
kind of call, right?
That's funny.

1182
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:20,280
That's funny.
You say that about begrudging,

1183
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:21,920
like, well, I guess I gotta do
it.

1184
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:24,520
And I just flashed back to my
LDS days going.

1185
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:26,960
I did the same thing with my
home teaching, right?

1186
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:29,800
Like, I don't wanna get out of
my sweats to go do it, but I

1187
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:32,920
guess it's on the table.
I gotta go get it done.

1188
01:13:34,280 --> 01:13:38,320
That's that's fascinating.
Real quick, who you talked about

1189
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:40,000
a second book.
William Marks.

1190
01:13:41,440 --> 01:13:43,400
Phil fill the audience in on who
he was.

1191
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:46,960
Exactly.
So in Novo William Marks was the

1192
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:52,240
stake president for the entire
stake and he was also the

1193
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:57,160
president of the High Council.
And back in that day you had the

1194
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,880
High Council in Zion or the the
standing high Council which he

1195
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,880
was President of.
And then you also had the 12

1196
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:05,880
which was a travelling high
Council.

1197
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:08,480
And in the Doctrine Covenants it
tells us that the travelling

1198
01:14:08,480 --> 01:14:13,160
high Council are not in charge
of the Saints in Zion, they are

1199
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:15,560
in charge of the Saints out in
the field.

1200
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:21,800
You know, so, so when Joseph
Smith died and and towards the

1201
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:26,000
end of Joseph Smith's life, the
12 started getting more and more

1202
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,000
power, right.
It's true.

1203
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,600
But they still there wasn't, you
know, a change.

1204
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:36,080
But still when Joseph died, a
lot of people recognized that in

1205
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:38,800
our scriptures it says that they
are a travelling high council.

1206
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:43,760
They don't have any jurisdiction
over the Saints, you know, as a

1207
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,880
body.
So many people thought that

1208
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:50,080
William Marx, well, some people
thought it was Sydney Rigdon

1209
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:52,840
because he was he was the only
surviving member of the First

1210
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,280
Presidency.
So perhaps Sydney Rigdon should

1211
01:14:56,280 --> 01:15:00,080
be succeed, should succeed
Joseph Smith.

1212
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:02,720
But many people thought that it
was William Marks.

1213
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:07,360
He was not only stick president,
the president of the High

1214
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:11,880
Council, but he was also in the
council of 50 and his his

1215
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:15,640
position in the High Council of
50 was higher than both Brigham

1216
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:19,160
Young and Sydney Rigdon.
He also received his second

1217
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:27,120
anointings before Brigham Young
as well, so he just seemed like

1218
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:29,120
he was the obvious choice to
many people.

1219
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,840
Emma thought he was the the
obvious choice.

1220
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:34,320
Emma he.
Is well.

1221
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:37,360
Yes, yes, Emma explains in a
letter.

1222
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:41,480
And I'll I'll I have a a chapter
on succession in this book

1223
01:15:41,480 --> 01:15:44,440
that's very interesting that
people will find fascinating.

1224
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,320
And so I say that William Marx
is like the most important

1225
01:15:48,440 --> 01:15:50,840
figure in Mormonism that nobody
knows about.

1226
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:55,800
So because then when after
Brigham Young and the 12th took

1227
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:58,840
over, they were a little
threatened by William Marks and

1228
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:00,440
kind of pushed him out of
Nauvoo.

1229
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:04,000
And then after that, he searched
the rest of his life for the

1230
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:06,520
true, you know, where's the true
gospel?

1231
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:09,000
He went to James Strang's
movement.

1232
01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:12,640
He went to Charles Thompson's
movement, and he ended up being

1233
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:16,000
influential and bringing Joseph
Smith, the third, into the

1234
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:19,800
reorganized church.
And he actually ordained him as

1235
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:23,160
the president of that church.
And he was his first counselor

1236
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:26,000
until he died.
Until William Marks died.

1237
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:31,280
So just a fascinating story.
So, so 'cause I'm always

1238
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:35,320
fascinated by by some of the I
don't have another good word for

1239
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:36,760
it.
If you do, please throw it at

1240
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:38,680
me.
But kind of the politics of this

1241
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:39,760
whole thing, right?
Yeah.

1242
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:45,400
Because with with with William
Marks, I OK.

1243
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:48,600
So this is a guy who's probably
very well acquainted with Joseph

1244
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:51,680
Smith, right?
Oh yeah, 'cause, 'cause there's

1245
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:56,080
there, there wasn't like in
those days it wasn't unusual to

1246
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:58,440
be, quote, hanging out with the
prophet, right?

1247
01:16:58,440 --> 01:17:00,480
I mean, it's a smaller group of
people.

1248
01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:03,360
You, you hear him talk
frequently there.

1249
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:07,560
There's not the same level of
distance that there is between

1250
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:11,600
US and say, if you're in the LDS
church, Russell M Nelson, right.

1251
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:14,680
It It's fair but.
Also, he was in he was in the

1252
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:18,360
same ward and he lived across
the street from Joseph Smith.

1253
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:22,920
Right.
Was William Marx ever Privy to

1254
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:26,000
to like the teachings on plural
marriage or anything like that?

1255
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,240
Was was he ever engaged in the
in the practice himself?

1256
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:32,040
Yes, and of course, no.
He wasn't engaged in the

1257
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:34,720
practice himself.
But of course the plural

1258
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:38,000
marriage was secret at the time.
So we don't have a lot of

1259
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:41,200
documentation, but we do have
some documentation from William

1260
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:45,240
Marx that's very important on
the question of plural marriage

1261
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:47,360
in Nauvoo.
And I don't know that I want to

1262
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:49,880
tell you what it is.
I want you to buy the book and

1263
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:51,760
find.
Out I I will buy the book and I

1264
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:54,560
I can respect that.
Cheryl, I do include.

1265
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:59,280
Also in the book all the letters
and writings of William Marks

1266
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:02,760
that we have in appendices so
you can go to his actual words

1267
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:06,840
and what he said, he tells us
about what Joseph told him about

1268
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:11,040
plural marriage right before he
died, so that.

1269
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,240
That sounds almost.
Yeah, that sounds almost like a

1270
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:18,840
smoking gun for guys who were.
Well, yeah, you'll have to see.

1271
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:21,840
You'll have to see.
Well, that's fascinating stuff,

1272
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:24,440
Cheryl.
We, we we jumped on here to like

1273
01:18:24,440 --> 01:18:28,680
start talking about Masonry and
then we we we branched way off.

1274
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:30,600
I mean, this was awesome.
I appreciate it.

1275
01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:33,400
Oh, thank you.
It was so much fun to talk with

1276
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:35,280
you.
You too and and let's do it

1277
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:37,400
again.
I I would be fascinated to have

1278
01:18:37,480 --> 01:18:40,080
you back on as you continue your
your work.

1279
01:18:40,120 --> 01:18:43,080
Like I said, I I feel like your
work's got some, some

1280
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:47,240
significance that really applies
to all of Mormonism, right?

1281
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:50,400
Whether you're LDS or whether
you're you're a fundamentalist

1282
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:52,880
like I am or someone from the
community of Christ.

1283
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,080
I I just feel like it spans the
gamut because we get to know

1284
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:58,520
Joseph a little bit better and
that's that's huge.

1285
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:03,400
So absolutely, as as you you dig
up more good stuff, keep me in

1286
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:05,040
mind 'cause I'd love to talk to
you again.

1287
01:19:05,480 --> 01:19:07,280
OK, thanks.
It was fun.

1288
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:09,120
All right.
Bye everybody.

1289
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:42,280
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.