Episode #118: The Life & Times Of John W. Taylor Part 4-A Band Of Brothers & A Christ-Like Sacrifice W/Michael Ness

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So we're now on episode #4 of
the series We're doing on the

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Life and Times of John W Taylor.
On this episode, Michael Ness

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and I cover a part of Mormon
history where the tide really

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begins to change on the church's
unofficial stance on plural

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marriage.
Now, there are two things that

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really come through on this
episode.

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One is the kind of band of
brothers mentality that some of

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the more ardent defenders of the
principal had in the Quorum of

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the 12.
And even more inspiring than

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that is perhaps outside of
Joseph Smith, a personal Christ

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like sacrifice made by John W
Taylor and ultimately a betrayal

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of that sacrifice by some
members in the Quorum of the 12.

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That really gets my blood
boiling and causes me to become

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just a little bit spicy.
Stick around for that and more

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on this episode of the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse.
To become and raise men and

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women of virtue and character is
a Herculean task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com, go to the

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bottom of the page, search out
the blog post, and order your

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copy.
Today, I can bear personal

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testimony from personal
experience that this is an

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invaluable tool to help you
raise men and women of virtue

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and character.
Listening to the Mormon Renegade

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Podcast and we're back again.
Howdy, Dave.

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How's it going?
Pretty good.

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Good.
So where'd we leave off?

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Last time we left off where
exactly?

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I was gonna, I was gonna ask you
that question.

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Did we talk about the division
of the Alberta stake in Canada?

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Yes.
Yep, we did.

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So maybe we'll just recap there
and go forward.

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Although I would like to make a
little bit of an apology or a

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disclaimer.
I was listening to episode 2 at

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work with some of my with my
brother-in-law and some friends

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and as I was hearing our our
back and forth, I I I realized I

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said something that I I didn't
like how it came out.

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I was talking about how some of
my source material came from a

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book published by Steve Murphy
and I said that he had been

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excommunicated from the AB and I
just left it at that and it

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sounded that and I don't want
to.

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I I I feel like I should say
that I only stated that because

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that had reference to not to any
moral issue, but because of the

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the turmoil in the AUB website
that was going on for a few

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years when they had the split
with Pinesdale and with he.

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If I'm if I'm remembering
correctly, he had some, he

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caused some that he voiced his
concerns regarding leadership

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being accountable through a
trial by a high council type

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format.
OK, And he voiced his opinions

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enough times on that that I
believe they they they

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disinvited him from intending
meetings and then offered a

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formal excommunication.
And the only reason I stated

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that was because I I thought,
well, wanted to be clear.

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But also the there's a little
bit of irony in the sense that

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fundamentalism was born out of
the idea that, well, even though

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the Church excommunicated us, we
didn't lose our priesthood.

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Right.
I thought it was a little funny

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to be excommunicated formally
from a priesthood group that's

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not technically a church.
But on the other hand, I don't

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think that you couldn't
essentially excommunicate

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someone through gross misconduct
or or other issues.

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He's, you know, those those
things are necessary to do

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sometimes.
Not saying it was necessary in

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his case whatsoever, but he put
together two really good books

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that I have.
I mean, I've only talked to him

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the one time when I when I
talked to him about those, but

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he put it together a really cool
book.

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I think he just called it
Conference Reports, but it was

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essentially laid out the way
Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R

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Mcconkey was laid out by topic,
but all the references are

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Journal of Discourse references.
And then the other one was what

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I've been using for some source
material or the earlier

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episodes, which was George Q
Cannon's journal that he

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reproduced, which was awesome.
Nice.

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OK.
No, we got that out of the way.

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It's always good to to lead with
that sort of stuff.

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Yeah, no, I felt I I I listened
to that and I was like oh that

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might might felt like a
character assassination or

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something.
And I I had no way, shape or

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form it to assassinate anyone's
character by saying.

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That OK?
Yeah.

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No.
So what was his name again?

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Steve Murphy.
OK, He's good in our book.

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We'll just go with that.
He's good in our book.

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Yep.
Absolutely.

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All right, so leaving off.
Or.

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Around the time we left off in
August 30th 19 O3 the Alberta

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Steak was divided and Heber
Simeon Allen was asked to be the

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new president of Taylor Steak in
which was centered in Raymond to

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Alberta, Canada and a number of
authorities including Matthias

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Cowley, John W Taylor, Anthony H
Lund, Reed Smoot and Joseph F

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Smith came to Carsten to divide
the stake.

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And sometime during their visit
John W Taylor and Matthias

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Cowley convinced Heber Allen and
Edward J Wood to both enter into

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the principle of plural
marriage.

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EJ Wood becomes the first
president of the Carson Alberta

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Temple, as well as being the
state president and at President

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Wood's death in 1956.
President David O McKay, who was

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president of the church then,
told Hubie Brown that we have

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never had a greater president of
a stake than Edward J Wood.

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And he.
But yeah, he was a polygamist.

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Both of those got, you know,
both steaks.

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They're presided over by
polygamists and a great steak

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president in the case of EJ
Wood.

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And he, he would visit his
second wife in Salt Lake City at

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least twice a year for
conferences and stay with her

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during those.
So it was still pretty

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underground for the pretty much
the rest of his life.

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And that's as crazy to me, but
it shows commitment.

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What year did he die?
1956 OK.

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Put that in.
Context.

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And he entered in, and he
entered into the principal

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sometime after August of
nineteen, O 3.

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Yeah.
But yeah, just put that in

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context, right.
In 56, who was president of the

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church?
Was that David O McKay?

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Yeah, OK.
And he knows.

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There's no way he doesn't know.
It's it's likely.

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He probably knew, Yeah.
I mean I think we mentioned this

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last episode, but yeah, I mean
we, we know from Joseph Musser's

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Inquisition in 19 O Nine that
David O Mackay was noticeably

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nicer to Joseph Musser than
others.

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You know, same with Roger
Clausen and Orson F Whitney.

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You know, they were they were
friendly even defending Brother

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Musser during that time period.
And there are those stories

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about David O Mackay entering
into the principal.

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We know that Orson F Whitney
entered into the principal, and

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we know that Rudder Clausen
entered into the principal Post

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Manifesto.
Right, right.

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And and I think I brought this
up when we recapped it, there is

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a lot of accounts that people
would go talk to to David O

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McKay and be like what's this
Adam God stuff or you know, ask

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questions about polygamy and
then magically though that

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couple would get a call from
Allred or somebody else and so

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and so yeah, there those
relationships weren't always as

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icy as they are today.
Sure.

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No doubt about that.
Yeah.

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There's a there's indication and
I don't know how long he was

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president of Boise Steak but
there was a according to those

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early fundamentalists, one of
them being Carl Jench.

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Yeah.
He, he gets involved with John

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Wooley in 1928, you know, well,
after the time period we're

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talking about.
But he's, he talked about being

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told by Joseph Muster that Heber
Q Hale who was president of the

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the Boise State, was set apart
by Joseph F Smith to perpetuate

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plural marriage in about 1917 or
so.

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And I don't know how long he
lived or was president of Boise

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State, but there's that, you
know.

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So yeah, and I don't know what
activity I I haven't ever dug

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into that.
That's something that might

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take, you know, future research.
Let's see in on September 11th,

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19 O3 Joseph F Smith told John W
Taylor to authorize Patriarch

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John A Wolf, who was a former
Bishop and member of the state

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presidency, to perform plural A,
a plural marriage for Franklin D

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Levitt. 8 years later in 1911,
when I asked about it, John W

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Taylor told The 12 that he was
under orders to do that.

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In particular, Matthias F Cowley
was a brother-in-law to

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Patriarch Wolf and also made
mention of it in his fellowship

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trial, saying all I know, I
think a Brother Levitt went to

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President Smith and asked him if
it would be all right if he

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referred to Brother Taylor, who
had charge of all things in

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Canada.
Yeah, that's what he said.

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And D Michael Quinn says
supporting evidence for

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President Smith's authorization
of these Canadian plural

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marriages from 19 O3 onward is
found in the fact that the

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records of these ordinances have
been kept under First Presidency

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control.
Yeah, yeah, they they don't want

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that getting out, right.
I mean, if that gets out, that's

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that's there's some real
questions then starting, you

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know, the way the current
narrative is framed, you know

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the the manifesto comes out and
a few stragglers hold on to it

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and then the second manifesto
comes out and we're completely

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done with this.
This is not the case.

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This is not what history.
No.

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And we're getting into the
second manifesto time period

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really quick.
It's on, We're right in front of

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that right now and we're going
to see just how much that it's

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not the case and it's going to
blow your mind.

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But yeah, so Speaking of record
books, so, So Quinn is saying

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that there was a record book
kept of the authorized Canadian

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marriages.
I'm assuming, and maybe I was

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assuming incorrectly, that that
was kept by Brother Wolf.

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Possibly.
Maybe by others like EJ Wood,

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00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,360
who was the temple president
Mistake President, I don't know.

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But you had.
We have plenty of what they

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called out of temple ceiling
record books.

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Anthony Ivins kept 1 Alexander
F, McDonald's kept one.

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00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,400
Both of those were down in
Mexico, so there's no stretch of

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00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,080
the imagination to believe that
they were keeping that in Canada

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as well.
Matthias Cowley had a record

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00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,520
book that was turned into the
church at one point.

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I I wouldn't doubt that John W
Taylor had one if Matthias

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Cowley had one.
John George Buchanan's journals

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have been published, although
some are redacted or pages have

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been removed.
But from a book that D Michael

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Quinn was going to publish
before he died, he stated that

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00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,080
there is a memorandum book of
George Buchanan's that is hidden

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away still and no one has seen
it.

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So it makes me wonder what's in
the memorandum book.

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I don't know.
In any case, the drama continues

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going into September 14th.
That same year, 19 O3 leaving

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Canada.
Joseph F Smith and those with

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him traveled to Wyoming, and
Wyoming had been under the

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colonization efforts of Abraham
Owen Woodruff, and in a meeting

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00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,200
in the Bighorn Stake in Wyoming,
he listened.

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Joseph F Smith listened to John
W Taylor give a public sermon

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defending polygamy, after which
Matthias F Cowley performed a

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marriage for the state president
there.

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While Joseph F Smith was there.
While Joseph F Smith was there,

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yeah.
Interesting.

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00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,440
The date I have for Sean W
Taylor performing that plural

227
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,480
marriage for the new president
of the Taylor Stake up in Canada

228
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,360
is five days after that sermon.
So I guess he goes back up to

229
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:52,400
Canada and performs a plural
marriage for Hebrew S Allen and

230
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:58,400
his second wife.
So then later that month to

231
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:04,960
September 25th, 1903, a general
board member of the YMMIAI

232
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,240
believe is the the Young Men's
Mutual Improvement Association.

233
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:13,000
A guy named Joseph W Summerhays
marries his fifth wife.

234
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,160
Now, if you remember from last
episode, he had had a

235
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,960
conversation with a Bishop from
Springville and Joseph F Smith

236
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,720
five years previously about
whether it was OK to enter into

237
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,960
plural marriage.
And he was told he was told by

238
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,760
President Smith that there was
ways that that could be

239
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,360
accomplished.
So five years after that, he is

240
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,200
married to his fifth wife in
Chicago, IL by Matthias Kelly.

241
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,280
Wow in Chicago.
Yeah, it must have been some

242
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,200
sort of business trip.
Yeah, there was some business,

243
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,520
yeah.
There's some that's that's for

244
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,480
sure the Lord's business.
Yeah, yeah.

245
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,960
There was some business
happening, the Lord's business.

246
00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,040
There's a journal entry in
Rugger Clawson's journal in

247
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,760
October 10th, 1903 where he
writes that he talked with one

248
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,040
of his wives about marrying
another plural wife and received

249
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,000
her permission to do so.
It's all over the place, right?

250
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,840
I mean, it just doesn't end.
It's it just like those who are

251
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,160
desirous to enter the principal
at this time period, All you got

252
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,520
to do is ask, bro, right?
Like we're not.

253
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,200
We're not telling you you
should, but all you got to do is

254
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,960
ask and things will happen.
The the unfortunate thing is

255
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,480
that probably because of that we
get the problems in the Reed

256
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,280
Smith hearings that come at the
very end of this year, which

257
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,440
we're approaching, which gets
the 2nd manifesto essentially.

258
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,080
But we're going to get to that
really quick.

259
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,840
November 3rd, 19 O 3 the
grandfather of current member of

260
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:55,880
the First Presidency Henry B.
Iring Edward Iring is sealed by

261
00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,960
Abraham Owen Woodruff in Colonia
Juarez to his second wife.

262
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,200
And I believe, and I'm not
entirely sure, that he ends up

263
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,560
with a third wife too but I
don't recall at this exact

264
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,560
moment.
But he writes in his journal.

265
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,599
This is Edward Iring writes in
19 O3.

266
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,720
I decided to try and enter into
the holy order of plural

267
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,040
marriage.
So with the help of my wife, I

268
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,280
was able to woo my wife's sister
Emma, after considerable

269
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,480
persuasion, married her in
November.

270
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,520
Wow.
And so Owen Woodruff sealed it,

271
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,360
and Ivan's reported it in his
record book.

272
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:33,840
So they're keeping records of
all this.

273
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,920
So they're they're still under
the understanding or or this

274
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,880
idea that just hold on these
records because right around the

275
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,120
corner this is coming back and
we'll need all these records and

276
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:49,200
we make sure you guys keep a
hold of all these records so

277
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,360
that when this happens we can
all bring it back in.

278
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,600
No.
And and look at the family

279
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,480
relation Henry B.
Iring living today.

280
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,560
His grandfather.
That was his grandpa.

281
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,440
Rampa, right?
That's like one person ago.

282
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,040
Yeah, that's one person ago.
He probably knew his grandpa,

283
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:08,520
You know what I mean?
Exactly.

284
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,720
Yeah.
And so, so think about this,

285
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,200
right?
Think about this.

286
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:16,960
I'm.
I'm only speculating.

287
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,520
Maybe one of them died before
Henry was born.

288
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,960
But there's a good likelihood
that Henry B Eyring, he's

289
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,560
hanging out with some peligs.
Oh.

290
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,280
Same time.
Hitting on his grandfather's

291
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,680
knee and like, oh, she's my
grandma and she's my grandma.

292
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,240
I mean, just again, one person
ago.

293
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,520
This is not ancient history.
This is very recent.

294
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,400
No.
Well, and you, when you see all

295
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,360
the people that his
grandfather's hanging out with,

296
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:45,800
you know, I think I got some of
that in here.

297
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:51,440
We're gonna get into that.
So the day after that, we see in

298
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,880
Anthony Ivan's journal, because
he's writing down this, you

299
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,560
know, this, that marriage.
The day before he writes.

300
00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,040
We started for Sonora this
morning and nooned about 8 miles

301
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,840
West of Ramos, camped on the
Janus River.

302
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,960
Our party consisted of Apostle
John W Taylor and wife Nellie,

303
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,560
Apostle Owen Woodruff and wife
Avery and John M Cannon and wife

304
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,080
Bishop Bentley, now Bishop
Bentley.

305
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,160
Joseph Bentley had at least two
or three wives post manifesto

306
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,440
sealed to him by the way his
wife Maggie and four of her

307
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:32,280
children and sister Cannon's
daughter Margaret and sister

308
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,440
Irene.
So one of one of brother Irene's

309
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,840
wives traveling with Owen
Woodruff, George M or John M

310
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,960
Cannon, who we know is friends
with Joseph Muster and John W

311
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,600
Taylor and John W Taylor's there
himself.

312
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,560
And how many?
Wives, Wilson.

313
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:51,640
How many wives did I ring end up
with?

314
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,200
At least two, maybe three, I
don't know.

315
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,080
But at least two.
We might cover him.

316
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,640
Taking another one in a minute,
I don't recall.

317
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,000
But they're also traveling with
Guy C Wilson.

318
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,960
Who had at least two or three
wives, Two of them I believe

319
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,800
believe being Post Manifesto and
brother Helam and Pratt, son of

320
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,080
Parley P Pratt, who also was a
Post Manifesto polygamist and

321
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:23,560
brothers Dan Skousen and brother
Joseph C Davis and Don Maroni

322
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,960
Lebaron.
Who is an uncle today?

323
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,600
Or Lebaron?
Interesting.

324
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,400
So a who's who of not only
church membership, but of future

325
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,480
fundamentalists as well, or
people.

326
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,920
Related to future
fundamentalists, yes, I have no

327
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,200
indication that Don Lebaron was
ever involved in fundamentalism,

328
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,880
but you can't expect me to
believe that nephew and uncle

329
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,880
never talked.
No, no, no, no.

330
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,400
No, no, no, no.
Right.

331
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,800
Like, like for some, I get it.
They want to keep the blinders

332
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,680
on and be like, but it was never
talked about.

333
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:04,000
And I'm like I Ring was sitting
on his grandfather's lap most

334
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,440
likely.
Maybe he died before he was

335
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:11,160
born, I don't know.
But the point I'm making this is

336
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:16,240
all in close, close proximity,
time wise and all the big names

337
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,000
within the church today and
prominent fundamentalists.

338
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,440
They're rubbing elbows.
Yeah, so let's look at the

339
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,400
prominent names here.
We got Lebaron, Skousen, Frat

340
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:34,200
Cannon, Woodruff, and Taylor and
Ivins.

341
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:42,280
Yeah, it's crazy.
Six days after that, Abraham

342
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,800
Owen Woodruff seals a plural
marriage to the residence down

343
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,600
in colonial Oaxaca.
Over a period of 15 days that is

344
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,800
included in those two entries,
Owen Woodruff had performed 3

345
00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:02,760
plural ceilings, so he's done 3
down there on that trip.

346
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,040
Now entering into the new year,
we're in 19 O four.

347
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:13,080
There was a meeting of after
after a meeting of the Quorum of

348
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,760
the 12, Matthias Cowley and two
other members of the corps met

349
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,640
in the Salt Lake Temple to
perform plural marriages.

350
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:23,360
I don't have any more record of
who was involved or who wasn't

351
00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:27,640
besides that, but Mathias Cowley
and two others accepting and it

352
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,640
was not that.
That's not including John W

353
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,040
Taylor because John W Taylor
cautioned them, the three of

354
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:37,160
them, whoever they were, about
being so active in promoting new

355
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,440
plural marriage.
So John W Taylor's kind of being

356
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,240
a voice of caution in that
instance, saying, hey, you're in

357
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,960
the temple, whatever you're
doing, just don't get caught,

358
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,200
you know?
Which if John W Taylor has to

359
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,520
warn you about being discreet,
you might be being being a

360
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,560
little loud, right?
I mean, John W Taylor is not

361
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,440
quiet, right?
He doesn't mind rocking the boat

362
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,000
a little bit.
So it it would be a lot like me

363
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,440
telling somebody else to watch
what they eat.

364
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,200
It just, you know, if I have to
tell you, maybe you shouldn't

365
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,680
have that next Snickers bar.
You may want to listen because

366
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,600
look at how out of shape I am.
So just take that.

367
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,680
You bring up a point I hadn't
thought of there before that if

368
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,000
John.
Yeah, if he's warning you,

369
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:24,840
that's a good question because.
Or a good thing to consider

370
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,760
because it's.
Yeah, he he does not.

371
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,880
He's not afraid to say what he
needs to say when he needs to

372
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,680
say it.
So now we're getting into the

373
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:40,400
Reed Smoot hearings on January
16th, 1904.

374
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,280
Senator Reid Smoot and Senator
Reid Smoot is a member of the

375
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,640
Quorum of the 12 Apostles.
I believe he's the only

376
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,320
monogamist of the Quorum of the
12 at this point.

377
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,480
He issues a flat denial to the
Senate Committee, which was

378
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,160
investigating whether the Church
was continuing plural marriage,

379
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,760
and says underoath that none of
the First Presidency or the 12

380
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,840
had taken plural lives or lived
with their plural lives since

381
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:11,120
the Manifesto of 1890.
That is a bold faced lie.

382
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:16,120
Brothers, that we've just we've
we've disproved seven ways to

383
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:19,240
Sunday up to this point in the
series.

384
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,760
Yeah, we we we remember that
Wilford Woodruff underoath said

385
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,040
the same thing in 1891, but then
he turned around in private

386
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,360
meetings and said any man who
abandons his wives will be

387
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,360
handled for their fellowship.
Yeah.

388
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,360
Let let me ask you a question
about Reed Smoot, 'cause I find

389
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:38,680
it interesting.
I mean, I I have my theories,

390
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,680
but they're just theories,
right?

391
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:47,200
If, if they want, if the church
wanted to place someone in there

392
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,520
who was devout, there would have
been better candidates than

393
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,720
Smoot, right?
Because somebody who's not in

394
00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:00,080
the quorum of the 12 part of me
doesn't wonder if they didn't

395
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,200
have the idea.
And and again, this is just

396
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,920
speculation Michael, but but if
they thought well we'll just get

397
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,520
one of our boys up there and
maybe we can make some inroads

398
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,760
that way.
You mean someone willing to

399
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,840
compromise?
Someone who was willing to maybe

400
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,480
make some inroads to take the
pressure off of this whole

401
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,320
plural marriage thing so they
could start practicing it again

402
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,480
more openly.
Well, I yeah, it's possible

403
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,840
because, you know, before this
you had a big what to do with BH

404
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:34,080
Roberts, who was applying to be
a state senator as well, but he

405
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,640
was a polygamist and they didn't
like that.

406
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,080
And then there was a whole deal
with with him running for that

407
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,200
office.
And so this was kind of their

408
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,800
second attempt of getting one of
their guys into into public

409
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,760
office in the government.
Right.

410
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,440
OK.
Yeah, just just the thought I

411
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,840
had right, 'cause if you were
looking at just finding somebody

412
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,720
who was a devout, was a
monogamist, it would have been

413
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,560
way easier to put in somebody
else who was maybe prominent in

414
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,480
the community but not
necessarily that close to church

415
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,800
leadership.
I I I only imagine that it would

416
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:14,360
have you wouldn't have had the
hearings right by placing a

417
00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:16,880
member of the Quorum of the 12.
Oh, sure.

418
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:17,800
Yeah.
No, that was.

419
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,480
That you're begging for it so
somewhere along the lines

420
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,640
they're feeling like this is
gonna be worth it right.

421
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,640
And and my the only thing I can
come to is, OK, what's the

422
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:33,000
thought process behind this And
it's it's maybe you know we get

423
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,240
our boy in there who who is a
monogamist but might be a little

424
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,440
sympathetic towards towards
people living plural marriage

425
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,160
and maybe make some inroads
there with with the government.

426
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,800
Yeah, that might have been how
it started out with, I I don't

427
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,800
know.
I I haven't researched the

428
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,680
recent hearings in depth on, you
know, for any other reason than

429
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,240
what's tangential to the topic
that we're on that could

430
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,960
probably merit its own S series.
So it went on for three years,

431
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,280
give or take.
The hearings did, and there's

432
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,880
thousands of pages of
testimonials.

433
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,880
That's a lot of pages for dude
just to dodge questions.

434
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,080
Oh dude, we're going to get into
some of the pertinent stuff and

435
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,800
it's you're going to love it.
It's hilarious.

436
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,200
And one of the first things it's
hilarious to me, being right

437
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,200
after Reed.
Smooth issues that flat out

438
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,920
denial.
Joseph F Smith was the first

439
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,880
witness called, and he flatly
admitted afterwards that he had

440
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,000
had five of his wives give him
eleven children since 1890,

441
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,560
which he just straight up
contradicted the testimony that

442
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,200
Reed Smoke gave that he had not
been living with his wives, that

443
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,440
none of the authorities had been
living with their wives, and he

444
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,640
so he's had eleven children.
We know that Lorenzo Snow, who's

445
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,280
dead at this point.
He had fathered a few children

446
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,920
through that time period, and
Heber J.

447
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,000
Grant was trying to and he got
caught up into this scenario and

448
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,200
he had to pay a fine and he told
them underoath.

449
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,120
He said yes.
I've I'm.

450
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,560
I'm living with my wives and I
want to continue to live with my

451
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:21,760
wives until I have a son and he
paid his fine $5000 I think 500

452
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,600
to $5000 and paid his fine for
breaking the law and went on his

453
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,120
way.
Is it bad?

454
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:32,280
When I think of Heber J.
Grant I just imagine there's

455
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,680
like an Anakin Evil Emperor sort
of scenario somewhere where

456
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,040
Heber J.
Grant just basically pledges his

457
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,040
loyalty to the other side.
I mean, it's the only thing I

458
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,880
can come up with, right?
Because he starts out so on

459
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:52,600
board and then by the end he's a
completely different person.

460
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,160
Yeah, that's weird.
Man, that's weird.

461
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,520
I don't know what complete.
I mean, I have a guess and we

462
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,960
talked about this a little bit.
You know, it was with that

463
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,640
Matthias Cowley promising him,
you know, to be a wingman and

464
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,680
help him out and then it never
happened.

465
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:15,680
But anyways, onwards we're
continuing with the reeds

466
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,320
throughout hearings to get down
to the bottom of it.

467
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,440
Because the the whole nation
want us to know.

468
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,960
You know, before they admitted
Apostle Senator Reed Smoot into

469
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,480
the into the US Senate whether
the church was going to be

470
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:38,360
sincere in its rejection of
polygamy, they issued subpoenas

471
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,360
for Matthias F Cowley and John W
Taylor to appear and testify in

472
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,160
Washington DC.
Neither of them obeyed the

473
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,840
subpoenas.
Reed Smoot's secretary named

474
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,920
Carl Badger, who was compelled
by his position to follow the

475
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,560
testimony in the hearings.
Daily expressed his frustration

476
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,040
to Franklin S Richards, which
was Smooth's attorney, and he

477
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:13,000
wrote in on March in March of
nineteen O 4, The committee is

478
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,240
insisting that John W Taylor and
Brother Callie come, and they

479
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,880
ought to, but I do not want them
to come and lie, and I do not

480
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,880
know whether I want them to come
and tell the truth.

481
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,200
So there you are.
It's not as ridiculous.

482
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,600
That's fascinating.
So during the Reed Smoot

483
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:41,440
hearings, are there any
indications that Smoot's

484
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,880
testimony rubs?
Maybe some of those who are

485
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,560
practicing plural marriage
within the quorum the wrong way.

486
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,720
Oh, Matthias Cowley and John W
Taylor very much felt pretty

487
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,120
grieved at this whole thing
because it becomes a very a very

488
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,680
much a personal ambition for
Reed.

489
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,840
Smooth by the end of it.
Where they're where he's He's

490
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,160
going to get that seat in the
Senate no matter what it costs

491
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,600
anyone else.
And it.

492
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,800
Ends up and it ends up costing
with IS Cali and John W Taylor

493
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,600
their positions in the form of
the 12th.

494
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,440
Oh, that's so fascinating.
I would have loved to have seen

495
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,280
what their reaction was, as
maybe they're reading the papers

496
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:29,440
and some of this is coming out.
That's a good question, Carl

497
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,200
Badger writes to a guy named Ed
Jenkins, who was another

498
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,720
political associate of Reed
Smooths in Salt Lake the same

499
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,240
month, which is March 19 O 4,
saying very few of our people

500
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,960
have been willing to admit that
the manifesto was a revelation.

501
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,040
But I want to see Brother Taylor
compelled to make this

502
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,680
admission.
I think we are getting indebted.

503
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,160
I think we are greatly indebted
to him for all this

504
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,120
unpleasantness, if you can refer
to a national scandal as such.

505
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,040
So Carl Badger is getting pretty
frustrated with John W Taylor in

506
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:06,080
any case, thinking he's to blame
over this and not Smoot, which

507
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,480
is I I guess you're entitled to
your opinion.

508
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,120
Here, here's an interesting
thing and I have never held

509
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,160
Smoot in high regard.
I'll get this out of the way

510
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,640
right now for a couple of
reasons, but one of them was is

511
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,080
I don't think he was a great
legislator.

512
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:28,320
So in 1930, Smoot authors a bill
that's backed by Howley called

513
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:33,640
the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act of
1930, that makes the Great

514
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,080
Depression way worse than it was
going to be.

515
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,160
That's terrible.
But that's the truth.

516
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,800
You can look it up.
He he was he was the guy who

517
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,160
helped write the bill.
He Co sponsored it.

518
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,160
It raised tariffs on over 20,000
items.

519
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,360
And what that did is because
they were in the very beginnings

520
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,360
of the Depression and it drove
the Depression even harder

521
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,040
because you limited competition
in the marketplace.

522
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,080
And so however you feel about,
you know, what he did up there

523
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,440
on Capitol Hill, there's no
doubt that he was not a great

524
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,000
legislator.
And you can make an argument

525
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:20,280
that he is one of the people
responsible for the length and

526
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,920
the depth that the Great
Depression and ended up being.

527
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,440
That's a pretty black mark to
have.

528
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,080
Yeah, yeah.
But he, I, I look at Smoot and I

529
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,960
don't think.
I don't think he's one of one of

530
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,400
the boys, right?
I don't think.

531
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:43,640
He's Nor do nor do I.
He came from good heritage.

532
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:49,360
He, I think he was the son of
Abraham Owen Smoot.

533
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,840
Who?
Abraham Owen Woodruff was named

534
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,600
after, you know, and they were,
they were related in by marriage

535
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,040
to the Woodruff family, I
believe.

536
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:03,000
In any case, here's a fun little
too bit of information.

537
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,560
So, yeah, John John W Taylor was
living in Canada during all this

538
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,960
because you know that I guess
that's probably the only way he

539
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,400
could hide from, you know,
pretty well from the subpoena

540
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:16,440
that's issued for him to appear
in DC.

541
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:23,679
Although he would, he would
evade detection and he would

542
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,800
travel down to Salt Lake City to
see his families down there in

543
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,360
Utah, and he would pretend to be
his younger brother, Moses W

544
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,159
Taylor.
And he would.

545
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:39,600
He taught.
He taught his kids to call him

546
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,239
Uncle Mosey while they were out
in public.

547
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,800
That's back when you could get
away with it before facial

548
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,400
recognition software.
Yeah, he'd he'd go around in

549
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,360
disguise as pretending to be his
brother or something.

550
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,520
And anyways that that was pretty
fun.

551
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:02,600
So all this attention brings
about what we call the 2nd

552
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,760
Manifesto, in which was
delivered in conference on April

553
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,640
6th, 19.
O Four, President Smith wrote to

554
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,920
Reed Smooth that the conference
action regarding the Declaration

555
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:20,520
was spontaneous, and D Michael
Quinn writes, President of

556
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,240
President of the 70 Seymour B.
Young's diary states that those

557
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:29,560
who seconded the motion to
sustain the 2nd Manifesto did so

558
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,320
quote per arrangement.
Among these seconds, meaning

559
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,240
people who sustained the vote
were Seymour B.

560
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:41,320
Young, who had performed 2
plural marriages in Mexico under

561
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,240
Joseph S Smith's direction,
which we covered already.

562
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,920
Anthony W Ivins, who had
performed dozens of plural

563
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,120
marriages in Mexico by First
Presidency authorization.

564
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:56,680
Angus M Cannon, who was a
brother to no uncle, Uncle to

565
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,360
Abraham H Cannon, brother to
George Buchanan and Jesse and

566
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,720
Smith, and Moses W Taylor,
brother of John Y John W Taylor

567
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:10,920
and Frank Y Taylor.
So Seymour B Young's diary

568
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:16,840
insinuates that Joseph F Smith
gave instructions for that thing

569
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,520
to be carried through on a vote.
Let let me ask you this.

570
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,040
Do you think Joseph F Smith has
a change of heart or do you

571
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,000
think do you think it's one of
these things?

572
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,640
Like, well, one manifesto seemed
to do the trick for a while of

573
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,840
getting them off our back?
Maybe a second will.

574
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,760
I want to see what your answer
to that question is going to be

575
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,720
as we go on, he continues.
By writing by way, by the way,

576
00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,320
he orchestrated the sustaining
of the Second Manifesto.

577
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,920
Joseph F Smith sent unspoken but
public reassurance to those who

578
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,800
had conscientiously entered
plural marriage.

579
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,960
After the Manifesto, it is not
surprising that some Latter Day

580
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,160
Saints interpreted the covert
message of the 6th of April 1904

581
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,280
as applying to future polygamous
marriages.

582
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,960
The reverse of the documents
overt statements and therefore

583
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,480
regarded the 2nd Manifesto as no
more restrictive of new polygamy

584
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,800
than the first.
Even when he told Anthony W

585
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,000
Ivins that the that the Nineteen
O 4 declaration applied to

586
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,960
Mexico, President Smith
qualified it by saying quote for

587
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,240
the time being.
OK, all right.

588
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:25,640
So, so it is an attempt to be
like, OK, the first manifesto

589
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,320
got us, got the government off
our back, maybe the second one

590
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,080
will do the same thing.
Yeah.

591
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,360
And I want to recap that last
bit for the listeners in my own

592
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,160
words.
But it looks like Anthony W

593
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,000
Ivins and Joseph S Smith get
into a conversation after this

594
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,680
because we know that some people
view the First Manifesto as only

595
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,640
applying to the United States
and therefore Canada and Mexico

596
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,560
was a different situation.
So Anthony Ivins, knowing that

597
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,520
was some of the opinion being
held, asks President Smith, does

598
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,840
the second declaration affect
Mexico?

599
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,200
And President Smith tells him
for the time being.

600
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,160
OK.
Do you think he meant that for

601
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,960
the time being or do you think
he just thought business as

602
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,160
usual after that?
It's hard to know exactly

603
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,320
because it looks like things are
pretty hot at this exact moment.

604
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:21,080
So.
So I could see it being a cooler

605
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,960
Jets everyone for now we were
we're under, you know, we're

606
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,920
under the lamp, you know, or
under the magnifying glass.

607
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,800
And I would like to read it.
I suppose we could read it.

608
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,600
The 2nd Manifesto reads,
inasmuch as there are numerous

609
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,120
reports in circulation, that
plural marriages have been

610
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,360
entered into contrary to the
official declaration of

611
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,360
President Woodruff of September
24th, 1890, commonly called the

612
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,320
Manifesto, which was issued by
President Woodruff and adopted

613
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,000
by Church by the Church at its
General Conference, October 6th,

614
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,480
1890, which forbade any
marriages violative of the laws

615
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,440
of the land.
I Joseph F Smith, President of

616
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,000
the Church of Jesus Christ of
the Latter Day Saints, hereby

617
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,320
affirm and declare that no such
marriages have been solemnized

618
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,360
with the sanction, consent, or
knowledge of the Church of Jesus

619
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,360
Christ of Latter Day Saints.
And I hereby announce that all

620
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,200
such marriages are prohibited.
And if any officer or member of

621
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,920
the Church shall assume to
solemnize or enter into any

622
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,040
marriage such marriage, he will
be deemed in transgression

623
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,400
against the Church, and will be
liable to be dealt with

624
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,840
according to the rules and
regulations thereof and

625
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,680
excommunicated therefrom.
Signed by President Smith.

626
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:46,880
Interesting.
OK, it often makes me curious

627
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,560
why that didn't make it in as
official declaration #3.

628
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,640
Or two, and then have official
declaration being 2.

629
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,400
Excuse me.
Yeah, I think it might actually

630
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,000
be under official declaration
one in some of the footnotes or

631
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,360
something.
OK.

632
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:05,920
I'm not entirely sure.
It might be in there.

633
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:10,280
You're going to look it up.
I'm.

634
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,400
Going to look it up.
I'm curious.

635
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,720
All right, but go so four days
after the second Manifesto is

636
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:24,600
issued, general Superintendent
of the church schools named

637
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:30,640
Joseph M Tanner marries his
fifth wife in Canada's Northwest

638
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:36,120
Territory, which is later the
Alberta province, by apostle

639
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,880
Matthias F Cowley.
OK.

640
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,440
And they're still members of the
core of the 12 at this point, by

641
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:42,680
the way.
But so.

642
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,400
But right after four days after
the second manifesto, Matthias

643
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:53,160
Calley is marrying the
Superintendent of the church

644
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:58,560
schools to his fifth wife.
Oh, OK.

645
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,000
Yeah.
All right, the day after that,

646
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:09,000
President Joseph F Smith sends a
letter to mission president.

647
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,480
He's Joseph E Robinson.
If you remember him.

648
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,640
He is the mission president of
the California mission.

649
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,240
Joseph F Smith advises him to
send his girls to Mexico.

650
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,520
And his wives.
Interesting.

651
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,680
So looking there is no.
It's not there.

652
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,520
It's not there.
OK, maybe they left it out

653
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,760
because nobody wanted to raise
the question of, well, what was

654
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,000
going on there that they had to
do a second manifesto.

655
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,920
Oh, man, I mean, that's a that's
a that's probably true.

656
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,960
All right.
So there's some interesting

657
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,680
activity right on the heels
within 5 days of the second

658
00:41:54,680 --> 00:42:00,120
manifesto, about a month later.
We're in May and I find this

659
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,120
kind of hilarious.
May 26th, 19 O 4, Apostle Reed

660
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,840
Smoot complained to the First
Presidency that Abraham Owen

661
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,600
Woodruff had proposed
polygamously to his wife's

662
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,440
niece.
His only wife.

663
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:19,000
His his wife's only niece, which
was her name was Clara Pratt

664
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,320
Eldridge.
So he's he's upset about this

665
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,120
Woodruff or or Smoot?
Smoot.

666
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,360
Yeah, smooth.
Yeah, Smooth's upset about Owen

667
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,840
Woodruff proposing to his wife's
knees.

668
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,120
But but that's also on the heels
of the Second Manifesto.

669
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,080
So we have our boy Owen Woodruff
seeking to he's already a Post

670
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,520
Manifesto polygamist, but he's
trying to be a post Second

671
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,000
Manifesto polygamist now.
Well, Michael, if you're going

672
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,000
to excel, you got to aim high,
right?

673
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,160
You can't, you can't be half
assing this.

674
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,240
You've got to go hard in the
pain if you want to achieve

675
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:03,160
greatness.
Let, let me let me ask you this,

676
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:11,960
'cause we know that their
Commission was kept very

677
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,040
compartmentalized within the
quorum of the 12, right?

678
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,120
Which I could see as being
smart, right?

679
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,920
If you're trying to do stuff on
the down low, you don't want

680
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,760
everybody knowing everything,
right?

681
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,240
You want to contain the damage
where you can?

682
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,920
Sure.
Let let me ask you this, do we

683
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,240
have any records of Smoot
performing plural marriages?

684
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:35,480
Not that I've seen.
So he might be the first guy

685
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,880
who's serious about getting rid
of this.

686
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,440
That's kind of the way I've
understood things.

687
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,360
OK now.
Then you have others who were

688
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,560
for it, turn against it.
You know, the the Reed Smoot

689
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,920
hearings were all that.
That's kind of what got Francis

690
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,880
Lyman, You know, in that camp,
you know, 'cause we know that he

691
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,240
performed that carriage ride
ceiling for John W Taylor.

692
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,880
OK.
So yeah, Brother apostle Owen

693
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,160
Woodruff is seeking to get a
third wife.

694
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:10,400
But sadly, on a trip to Mexico
the next month in June, he dies.

695
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,120
Who dies?
Owen Woodruff.

696
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,120
OK, that's right.
And it they they deem that

697
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:18,360
appendicitis?
Right.

698
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:19,960
I don't think it was
appendicitis.

699
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,280
I think it was flu, Spanish flu
going around at that time.

700
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,160
OK.
Sorry about that, I think.

701
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,480
I'm not entirely sure, but he
was about 31 or 32 years old.

702
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,920
That's still awful young to be
dying from the flu.

703
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,440
Yeah, I don't know, I don't
know.

704
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,680
Terrible, terrible history.
Would be so different if he had

705
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:45,320
lived, I think July 4th, 19 O 4,
Don Maroni Lebaron, age 46,

706
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,240
marries his third wife in
Burnham, San Juan County, New

707
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:53,680
Mexico, by a verbal agreement or
solemn covenant.

708
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,560
Nice.
I like that.

709
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,480
He's he's he's a post Second
Manifesto polygamist.

710
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,720
On July 9th, 19 O 4, Francis M
Lyman writes to apostle George

711
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:10,760
Teasdale who's, you know,
resident apostle down in Mexico.

712
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,880
And he's he writes to him saying
what has already been done

713
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,000
regarding new plural marriages
is shaking the confidence of the

714
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,120
Latter Day Saints.
We are considered as two faced

715
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,520
and insincere, and that's the
moment, I believe, where he

716
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:26,960
flips.
Where?

717
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,640
Where?
Where?

718
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,560
Lyman.
Flips, Francis.

719
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:36,320
Lyman flips.
So it he flips because he's

720
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,880
worried about the integrity of
the church, right?

721
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,440
And and the.
Public optics and.

722
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,600
The members and see this is this
is one of those points in this

723
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:56,320
conversation where I go back to
don't surrender an inch, not an

724
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,680
inch.
If it's a true principle, do not

725
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:06,600
hedge, because this kind of
duplicity always comes back to

726
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:07,840
haunt you.
Always.

727
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,480
I oh, I completely agree.
I completely agree with you.

728
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,040
I.
I understand that that that that

729
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,400
Wilford's a good man right?
And and he had the best of

730
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,480
intentions in signing the first
Manifesto.

731
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:28,280
But in doing so he he he kicked
down the door for just this very

732
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:36,080
thing and and it it if you
surrender that inch you can bank

733
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,720
the mile.
It's coming shortly thereafter.

734
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:46,200
I 1000% agree with you.
It's it's hard looking at all

735
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,520
this, but we have a few more
years of hope before it gets

736
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,320
completely dismal.
Case in point, August 3rd, 19 O

737
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:58,760
4 Apostle Roderick Clawson
marries his third wife in Pearl

738
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:04,640
Udall in looks like Grand
Junction, Mesa County, Colorado

739
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:11,440
by Apostle Matthias F Cowley.
After that marriage it looks

740
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,400
like to keep things on the down
low, that Anthony H Lund who was

741
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,720
second counselor in the First
Presidency, began to act as a go

742
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:23,840
between for the letters between
Rutgers Lawson and his new wife.

743
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,320
And so she or he would write
letters to Anthony H Lund, a

744
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,560
member of the First Presidency
on behalf of an Apostle who just

745
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,960
married his third wife.
A second A post second Manifesto

746
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,760
wife in order to keep things
from being discovered.

747
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,640
Well, and that makes sense,
'cause if I'm not mistaken, it

748
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,440
was Lund who had the meeting in
the temple two years.

749
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,440
Before this.
Yeah, with all those proto

750
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,960
fundamentalists muster be in one
of one of them, right?

751
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:51,280
Yep.
Yep.

752
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:52,640
So, Anthony?
Salon.

753
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:56,760
Is our, is our boy and.
It's and it's at that point that

754
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,480
one says Keep your records
'cause this is gonna be over

755
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,120
soon.
Yep, absolutely.

756
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:10,760
We have in addition to that, I
love this Joseph E Robinson, who

757
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:15,000
was mission President to the
California Mission all the way

758
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:19,640
into Nineteen O 8.
When Roger Clausen is visiting

759
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:29,240
California, he takes his wife
with him and he arranges that

760
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:33,400
the hotel that Roger Clausen
staying at has the adjoining but

761
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:39,240
connected rooms with her listed
as a, you know, she's probably

762
00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:41,560
listed as a single lady or
whatever, but he made sure that

763
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,480
their rooms were adjoining, you
know, while he was out visiting.

764
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,360
So did that shows you that
there's some, there's there's a

765
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,360
network going on here, the
people that got each other's

766
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,600
backs?
Yeah, and.

767
00:48:54,600 --> 00:49:00,320
And not only that, I think this
lends credibility to the idea

768
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:05,440
that this isn't something that
they take lightly, right?

769
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,160
They're willing to go Incognito
for this.

770
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,720
They're willing to go, you know,
cloak and dagger over this

771
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:15,160
issue, which shouldn't press on
everybody.

772
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:21,200
This idea that this was more
than just a wink and a nod if

773
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,440
you so desired, this was
something that they felt like we

774
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,920
got to do whatever we can to
keep this thing going.

775
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,400
And if that means we have to
send letters through the 1st

776
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,920
presidency, if this is
somebody's got to arrange for my

777
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,520
wife to have the room next to me
and my first wife, so be it.

778
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,280
They're they're they are not
going to go quietly into the

779
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,080
night on this.
And so that brings me to the

780
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:52,360
question rhetorically for for
you and I who were either raised

781
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,240
and you were converted to the
LDS Church, we're told one

782
00:49:56,240 --> 00:49:59,480
thing, and we're told that it
stopped in 1890.

783
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,360
But learning these things, we
either learned that either the

784
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,120
Manifesto was a revelation from
God and the Brethren were

785
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:10,480
disobedient to it, or it wasn't
a revelation from revelation

786
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,120
from God, and they never stopped
it, so why should we?

787
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,680
Yeah, that's that's exactly
right.

788
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:23,560
You're 100% correct.
And and look, not that I would

789
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:28,480
ever compare myself to those
men, because those men in, in a

790
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:33,040
very gospel and holy sense were
the baddest of badasses.

791
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,520
They just were right.
They're like, we're going to

792
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,680
keep this going come hell or
high water.

793
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,400
OK?
If it's good enough for them to

794
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,480
have to find some workarounds,
what does that mean for guys

795
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,480
like you and I?
Exactly.

796
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,120
Those are the questions we
should be asking ourselves.

797
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:55,200
Yep, absolutely, 100%.
Because here's the other thing.

798
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,120
These guys are getting up there
in age, right?

799
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,880
They probably could have kept
this on the down low and and if

800
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,600
they were all about stopping
this, they could have said, you

801
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,360
know what, we got our wives.
This was great while it lasted.

802
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,080
Now let us just kind of ride off
into the sunset, so to speak.

803
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,560
We'll fulfill our callings.
We're just the leftovers.

804
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,800
I don't think that's the case
given their age at this time.

805
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,040
I mean, muster not being one of
them, excluding muster.

806
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,640
I'm talking just the quorum of
the 12 now, right?

807
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,080
Generally, generally speaking,
you know, let's see, John W

808
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:39,560
Taylor at this point would be
47, OK.

809
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:42,760
And so he's probably on the
younger side.

810
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:48,320
But President Smith, Joseph F
Smith would be nearly 70, maybe

811
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,920
69 at this point, if my memory
serves me.

812
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,920
Here's the thing.
At their age, and let's put this

813
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,360
into perspective, this is the
early 1900s, right?

814
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:02,560
At 47, you can maybe bank that.
You might.

815
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,760
If you've taken really good care
of yourself, you got another 20

816
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,320
years.
Sure.

817
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,840
Right.
They're not worried about them.

818
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,840
They're worried about us, right?
They're worried about their

819
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,080
kids.
They're worried about this.

820
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,400
Practice has to continue for
them, right?

821
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:26,000
And I think, I think we lose
track of of that fact and we let

822
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:31,400
others frame the narrative that
these are just very amorous men

823
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,400
who want to continue this
practice for their own

824
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:38,160
gratification.
My argument is Joseph Smith is

825
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,320
70.
Lund is probably approaching

826
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:47,480
that John W Taylor who's on the
younger side at 47 maybe another

827
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:53,520
20 years left right and and so
then then what's the end goal if

828
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:58,280
you're if if it was just you,
dude, dust your hands off.

829
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,320
You've had a great run, right?
I mean you got your you got your

830
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,400
big family like you wanted.
You can just fulfill your

831
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:08,760
callings be the quote leftovers
from this archaic practice and

832
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,720
you get to just do your thing.
No, no, no, no, no, no.

833
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,240
If you're going to this length
in your twilight years, you're

834
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:19,520
doing it with the idea of the
next generation in mind.

835
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,000
Yeah, and we should keep your
remarks in mind as we go

836
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,520
forward, because you're going to
see evidence for exactly that if

837
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:33,160
we get far enough.
In August, on August 11th, 19 O

838
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:39,360
4, Brother Taylor marries a
counselor in the state

839
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:45,000
presidency to his fourth wife.
In September of nineteen O 4,

840
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,440
John W Taylor performs 4
marriages.

841
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,880
So he performs one in August.
So he's performed 6 or 7 up to

842
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:56,280
this point in his life and then
one in August right there.

843
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,960
I think that is number 7.
And then there's four more

844
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:06,360
between September 20th and
September 26th for A George H

845
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:11,720
Budd and his second wife and her
and yeah, his second wife, and

846
00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:19,400
two ceremonies for Edward or
Edwin T Benyon, who was another

847
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:24,240
count who was a counselor in the
another counselor in the Taylor

848
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:27,400
State presidency.
And he married both of his wives

849
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,640
on the same day.
Wow.

850
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,720
And then the last marriage out
of that group was for John W

851
00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:38,040
Taylor's brother, Frank White
Taylor.

852
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,160
So yeah, they're still going for
it.

853
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,080
They're still going for it.
Second Manifesto or not?

854
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,440
On October 8th, 19 O 4, Carl A
Badger, whose secretary to Reed

855
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:59,880
Smoot writes in his diary, and
this is awesome, he writes AB

856
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:05,640
Irving told me that Apostle Owen
Woodruff told him that a certain

857
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,160
number of worthy people had been
commissioned to keep alive the

858
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:14,120
principle of plural marriage.
This was in reference to new

859
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,760
marriages about which gossip was
rife.

860
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:21,440
So that's a good source.
Yep.

861
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,400
Owen Woodruff told was telling
people that people have been

862
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,520
commissioned to keep alive the
principle of plural marriage.

863
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,360
Not only did he prophecy that in
Mexico, you know, also

864
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:36,280
reiterating what Apostle Mariner
Merrill had said, but he was in

865
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,320
the know that people had been
specifically commissioned.

866
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:45,120
September 26th, 19 O 4,
President Joseph F Smith

867
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:49,600
releases a statement to certain
authorities wherein he states

868
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,600
that he's withdrawing authority
from President that President

869
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,120
Woodruff and President Snow
delegated to authorize some of

870
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,040
the Apostles and others to
perform ceilings for time and

871
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,600
for eternity.
That's interesting.

872
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,880
I would love to get my hands on
that letter, because what it

873
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:11,680
does is it admits that Woodruff
and and Snow authorized certain

874
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,760
members of the 12 to perform
those marriages.

875
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:19,000
And in Quinn's book on LDS
church authority and post

876
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,960
manifesto plural marriages, he
notes that while while this says

877
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,160
that he is rescinding the
authority of Presidents Woodruff

878
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,880
and Snow, it conspicuously says
nothing about authority that he

879
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,280
himself extended to any right.
Yeah.

880
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,280
So in the in the world that they
live in of clandestine

881
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:43,960
operations and, oh, you know,
almost spy thriller events,

882
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:49,000
you're kind of forced to read in
the lines of OK, well, I was, I

883
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,560
wasn't commissioned by President
Woodruff from President Snow.

884
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,320
I was commissioned by President
Smith.

885
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,000
So I guess that means I'm still
good there, you know?

886
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,640
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

887
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:07,840
And and man, the the amount of
hoops and and in all honesty, it

888
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,440
makes me respect these guys
more, right?

889
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:16,200
Because not only are they doing
mental gymnastics to to figure

890
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:20,000
all this out, keep all these
moving parts and pieces kind of

891
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,160
coherent, but they're doing
things like delivering letters.

892
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:29,640
They're doing things like
arranging, you know, places to

893
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:36,360
stay for other men engaged in
plural marriage and and I can

894
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:41,960
only imagine the amount of love
that these men had for each

895
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,000
other as well, right?
No.

896
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,360
Doubt about it.
Like I I'm gonna go.

897
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,760
These are your ride and die
homies, right?

898
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:55,840
These were the guys that that
that have your back and you have

899
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,440
theirs to the end.
And so I can only imagine the

900
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,280
amount of camaraderie and
brotherhood that's there.

901
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,360
I completely agree.
There's a you remind me by

902
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:13,080
saying that of a of one of the
statements I think I alluded to

903
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,400
or at least a statement similar
to one I alluded to earlier

904
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:21,200
where I quoted President Smith
saying in a talk in Idaho.

905
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,520
Remember that where he said I
will lie like hell to protect my

906
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,120
brethren.
Yeah, there is one where he

907
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,560
where in a letter to Anthony W
Ivan's Joseph F Smith writes

908
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:39,960
that his motto quote is always
and always has been to protect

909
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:44,160
to the uttermost in my power the
rights and the secrets, if

910
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,920
secrets there may be, of my
friends and the friends of the

911
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:53,520
Kingdom of God.
Yeah, yeah, I can only imagine,

912
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,000
right?
Because look, it's not really

913
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,280
war per Southeast.
So it's got to develop that same

914
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,240
kind of Band of Brothers
mentality, right?

915
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,000
Like it's US against the world
Bros we're we're we're going for

916
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:10,640
it, here we go.
And I'll be darned if they

917
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:12,320
didn't actually stick it out
together.

918
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,520
I think a lot of them did.
The problem is, realistically,

919
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:23,040
as you noted earlier, a lot of
these men, so well respected in

920
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,800
a position of authority, are
kind of elderly, and as they die

921
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:32,400
out, the torch was not carried
as sufficiently as maybe it

922
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,280
could have been.
OK, now I'm going to say

923
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,320
something that's going to piss
some people off, and I want to

924
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:44,320
apologize ahead of time.
Not that I'm saying it, but I

925
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:52,960
have to say, just like there
were elderly men who tried to

926
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,600
keep the principle of plural
marriage alive today, I believe

927
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,600
that within the LDS Church,
there are elderly men trying to

928
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,120
preserve marriage between men
and women.

929
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:10,040
And that torch will not be
passed to this next generation

930
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,280
because this next generation
doesn't want the torch.

931
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:22,760
And I think this is, in a weird
way, a repeat of what happened

932
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:27,560
with plural marriage.
That's a good point.

933
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:29,640
That's a really good parallel to
draw.

934
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,360
But as we've seen a lot of stuff
the last few weeks as you and I

935
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,720
noted earlier in in our own
talking together.

936
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:39,520
But the church is like it's
struggling.

937
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:46,080
The optics of ARE are confusing
to everyone and in my generation

938
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,040
I can speak for my generation
from what I see from my peers

939
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,000
and those younger, they're
mental.

940
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,480
I don't understand.
I don't understand where they're

941
01:00:54,480 --> 01:01:01,600
coming from with with the trans
activity and the you know and

942
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:06,320
and you know what we what is
what is coined as gay civil

943
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,720
rights or what have you.
I do not understand.

944
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:13,480
It has no place in the plan of
salvation except for if you

945
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:15,840
struggle with those things, you
need to repent and you need to

946
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:20,360
make covenants with your God
that will exalt you by living

947
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:22,200
your covenants.
And there's no other way.

948
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:25,640
You and I have to be chased, you
know.

949
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:28,000
Look.
I I'm going to, I'm going to

950
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:32,600
point them out and then I
challenge anybody to tell me

951
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:38,120
that, yeah, yeah, all is well.
In Zion, you have the new

952
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:43,240
public, the the new director of
public relations for the LDS

953
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:48,040
Church who is an avowed trans
activist, not trans himself, but

954
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:51,560
trans activist all over Twitter
or X.

955
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:56,720
You know, celebrating gay
marriage, celebrating trans

956
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,680
rights, the whole ball of wax.
That's your boy that's going to

957
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:05,760
go out and talk to the public.
OK, next you have a dude, and

958
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,000
yes, it's still a dude.
I don't care if you did get your

959
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:13,200
junk chopped off, you're still a
dude in Arizona who gets

960
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,160
baptized.
And we also know that there's a

961
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,160
second one, and I can't remember
where it's from.

962
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:22,080
Where The first Presidency gives
the authority for them to be

963
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:26,920
baptized.
OK, now we know of at least four

964
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:32,840
couples who are practicing
homosexuals, married,

965
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:38,000
participating in church,
partaking of the sacrament, and

966
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,640
holding callings.
The writing's on the wall on

967
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,200
this.
This is coming, and I didn't

968
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,360
plan on going in this direction,
but seeing the parallels, it's

969
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,800
too striking.
If you think somebody's going to

970
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,000
ride into the rescue on this,
you are sadly mistaken.

971
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:58,520
If you're LDS and you want to
preserve what's left in the LDS

972
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:02,480
church, you better start getting
darn vocal right now.

973
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:07,320
You better become a major pain
in the butt to your superior, so

974
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,360
to speak, or else this thing's
on the way.

975
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:13,840
Period.
History bears us out.

976
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,080
This is like we saw with with
plural marriage.

977
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,000
The guys coming up don't want
the torch.

978
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,360
Want to get more out of
listening to the Mormon Renegade

979
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,040
podcast?
Then go to the Mormon Renegade

980
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:30,400
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in this episode Show notes for

981
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,880
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for $3 a month.

982
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:37,200
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983
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,160
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984
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,040
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985
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,000
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986
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,560
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987
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,360
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988
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,720
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989
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,560
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down the news of the day from a

990
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,640
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991
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:04,960
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992
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,400
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993
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,120
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994
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,800
The guys coming up don't want
the torch.

995
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:18,320
I know.
And people that will carry it

996
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:21,280
will be deemed as radicals.
Or, you know, if the word

997
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:24,920
fundamentalist hadn't been, you
know, stolen by people like us

998
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:26,880
already, they would be termed
fundamentalists.

999
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:29,280
Yeah, which?
You know, Dean notes A.

1000
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,560
It's a it's a negative
connotation for extremism, you

1001
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,600
know, which that's the way the
world views that term, you know,

1002
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:39,760
But that's how they would be
labeled and that's how they will

1003
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:41,520
be labeled, even if that term
isn't applied.

1004
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:47,760
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
It it it's on the way.

1005
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,200
It's not, it's no longer a
distant mile marker down the

1006
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,320
road.
It's kicking in the door now.

1007
01:04:54,840 --> 01:05:00,000
Yeah, I don't disagree with you.
Are you ready for some laughs

1008
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:01,040
now?
I am.

1009
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:03,320
I am.
I So.

1010
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,360
Fire.
Yeah, no, I'm glad you did.

1011
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,760
I got a little thing from the
Reedsmooth hearings of testimony

1012
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,120
given by George Reynolds, which
is very pertinent.

1013
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,600
It's very eye opening and it's
very funny.

1014
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:24,800
Pres.
George Reynolds is secretary to

1015
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:30,120
the First Presidency as well as
being a President of the 70s and

1016
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,520
the Read Smooth Investigation
Committee, which is examining

1017
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,560
all, you know, everything at the
church, is doing that they're

1018
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:39,680
trying to hide.
They interviewed him to find out

1019
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:43,440
whether the manifesto was
intended to be a subterfuge to

1020
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:47,520
the outside world or worse, was
it a revelation from God which

1021
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:52,680
was being violated?
So a Mr. Worthington asks George

1022
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:57,280
George Reynolds, You said
something about helping to write

1023
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,480
the manifesto.
Will you explain that?

1024
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:04,080
And George Reynolds says
President Woodruff wrote it in

1025
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:06,480
his own hand.
And he was a very poor writer,

1026
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,200
worse, I believe, than Horace
Greeley.

1027
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,600
And he gave it into the hands of
three of the elders and prepare

1028
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:16,440
it for to prepare it for the
press.

1029
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:19,840
I was one of those three.
Mr. Worthington asks.

1030
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:24,240
Who were the three?
Mr. Reynolds says, Charles W

1031
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:27,440
Penrose, John R Winder and
myself.

1032
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,440
Mr. Worthington asks, What did
you do?

1033
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:35,160
You said you helped write the
manifesto, and I want to have an

1034
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:38,640
understanding of what you meant
by that, Mister Reynolds says.

1035
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,600
The answer came from the fact of
the question coming to me,

1036
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,480
whether I had read it and
understood it, and I answered

1037
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:48,240
that I had assisted in writing
it.

1038
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:53,600
Mr. Worthington asks.
Did you 3 then transcribe these

1039
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:57,000
notes of President Woodruff, or
did you rewrite it or what?

1040
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:02,920
George Reynolds says we
transcribe the notes and change

1041
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:05,880
the language slightly to adapt
it for publication.

1042
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:10,160
Mr. Worthington asks.
They contain the substance.

1043
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:14,160
George Reynolds says yes, they
contain the substance.

1044
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:20,520
And then a senator named Mccomas
asks, did you, in transcribing

1045
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,760
the utterance of President
Woodruff, make such change of

1046
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:27,520
phraseology as would make it
ambiguous, so that it might

1047
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:31,640
apply to marriages subsequent
and not now, to living with

1048
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:33,360
wives who had been married
prior?

1049
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:37,840
George Reynolds says no, Sir.
Senator McConnell asks.

1050
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,920
It must have come to your mind
when you were copying and

1051
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,400
changing the phraseology whether
this applied.

1052
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:47,920
This is to apply to the future
and whether the past is to be

1053
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:53,960
expected is did or not.
George Reynolds says No, Sir, I

1054
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:56,400
have told you honestly what my
feelings and opinions were.

1055
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:00,480
Senator Mccomas asks.
It did not occur to you then, No

1056
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:05,200
Sir, that required years.
George Reynolds says this.

1057
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:08,640
Yes Sir, when you wrote it, as
we understood the president

1058
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:11,720
intended with his manuscript
before us?

1059
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:14,160
The chairman of the committee
then asks.

1060
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:16,960
I do not know, but I may have
misunderstood.

1061
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:22,160
I understood that this manifesto
was inspired and George Reynolds

1062
01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:25,200
says, well, yes, The chairman
asks.

1063
01:08:25,399 --> 01:08:29,479
That is your understanding of
it, George Reynolds says My

1064
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,399
understanding was that it was
inspired.

1065
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,160
The chairman then asks.
And when it was handed to you,

1066
01:08:35,319 --> 01:08:39,000
it was an inspiration, as you
understand from on high, was it

1067
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,640
not?
George Reynolds says yes.

1068
01:08:42,279 --> 01:08:45,319
The chairman then asks what
business had you changing it,

1069
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:50,040
and George Reynolds asks or says
we did not change the meaning.

1070
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:52,920
The chairman says You just
stated you changed it.

1071
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:56,600
George Reynolds replies, Not the
sense, Sir.

1072
01:08:56,600 --> 01:09:00,000
I didn't state that we changed
the sense, the chairman says.

1073
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,680
But you did change the
phraseology, Mr. Reynolds says.

1074
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:07,840
We Simply put it in shape for
publication, corrected possibly

1075
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:10,640
the grammar, and wrote it so
that.

1076
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:15,720
So there he's interrupted.
You cut off and the chairman

1077
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:19,680
says You mean to say that in an
inspired communication from the

1078
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:22,240
Almighty, the grammar was bad.
Well, is it?

1079
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,000
You corrected the grammar of the
Almighty, did you?

1080
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:34,880
It's it's hilarious that that
this senator is basically saying

1081
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,319
the same things we are at the
moment, right?

1082
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:42,720
I I I do find that very funny.
I find that very ironic.

1083
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:46,560
Yeah, no.
And and we discussed earlier how

1084
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:54,120
Wolford Woodruff wrote a what
was going to be the manifesto.

1085
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:57,360
And then it was, and it was
written down by George Q Cannon

1086
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:00,200
in his journal.
And then they destroyed the

1087
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:03,920
original copy.
And then John R Winder and

1088
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:09,160
Charles Penrose and George
Reynolds wrote it the way that

1089
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:11,160
you know that it stands
currently.

1090
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,560
And I think I read over the
original.

1091
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:21,040
I don't know if I did, but I
guess you can say that the sense

1092
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,280
was the same.
And George Reynolds isn't lying

1093
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:27,200
in that sense.
But it definitely shows you some

1094
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:30,520
of the logical fallacy that we
go through to the people in the

1095
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,480
church go through to, you know,
that it was a revelation

1096
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:37,280
abolishing plural marriage,
which definitely was not

1097
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:40,000
understood by the people at this
point in time.

1098
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:43,840
In fact, we're going to see
literally right after this,

1099
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:46,240
George Reynolds is going to
perform a plural marriage.

1100
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,880
He's like, excuse me, Senator, I
got to go marry a couple, yeah.

1101
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:55,000
No, I'm not even kidding you,
dude.

1102
01:10:55,320 --> 01:11:01,080
It's You can't make this up.
Oh, that's awesome.

1103
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:03,760
That's awesome.
Excuse me, senator, I have to go

1104
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:05,320
now.
I got some church duties I need

1105
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:08,360
to attend to.
Wink and out the door he goes.

1106
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:11,880
Perfect.
Oh man.

1107
01:11:13,480 --> 01:11:17,440
So going on from that point,
we're in the new year again,

1108
01:11:17,440 --> 01:11:23,560
January 1st, 19 O 5.
This is an interesting statement

1109
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:27,280
that I I found this from a book
called The Read through hearings

1110
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:30,360
and some other subtitles that
I'll now recall.

1111
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:36,040
But in one of the appendixes, it
says that on January 1st, 19 O

1112
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:41,200
five, that President Smith told
a bunch of temple workers,

1113
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,840
ordinance workers in the Salt
Lake Temple quote, that the

1114
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:48,000
ordinances of God are more
seriously threatened than ever

1115
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:51,640
before.
Since the days of Nauvoo, we

1116
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:55,440
have not only the hatred of
outsiders, but of men and women

1117
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:59,120
professing to be Mormons.
Interesting.

1118
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,600
Interesting.
Oh, that.

1119
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,320
That.
OK, let me get my tinfoil hat on

1120
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:11,240
for a minute.
OK, if you remember there's a

1121
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:14,800
story, I believe Ezra Taft
Benson, but don't quote me,

1122
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:18,400
where someone asked him if he
was worried about someone taking

1123
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:23,200
his life and he pointed to the
church building and said I'm

1124
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:26,320
more concerned about what's
going on in there in that.

1125
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:33,000
I have heard that story before.
Than I am to to outsiders this

1126
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:39,840
might be the first time that the
utterance has been given that

1127
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:45,120
pardon the phraseology, the
Barbarians have broke down the

1128
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:52,280
gate and they now are entrenched
in the church and and this will

1129
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:55,920
play out again and again within
the church where there's this

1130
01:12:55,920 --> 01:13:02,080
idea of we just got to keep this
together till these old men die

1131
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,760
and then we can re mold the
church into something closer to

1132
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:11,000
our hearts desire.
There's a there's an interesting

1133
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:16,000
parallel here, and I can't say
that it's cause and effect or

1134
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:22,240
that it's correlated at all, but
it is interesting to note the

1135
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:29,000
nineteen O 5 is the year that it
looks like the temple or the the

1136
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:31,320
lecture at the veil in the Saint
George Temple was removed.

1137
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:33,640
Yep.
As well.

1138
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:38,680
So it's been told to me that
President Joseph F Smith in his

1139
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:41,440
later years was not a bit big
proponent of the Adam God

1140
01:13:41,440 --> 01:13:45,360
doctrine.
I've never looked into that a

1141
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:50,400
whole lot and this makes me want
to almost re evaluate that.

1142
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:54,400
If it's connected, it might not
be correlated as I said for him

1143
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:56,240
to say that the ordinances are
under threat.

1144
01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:01,120
But that is the same year that
the lecture of the real with the

1145
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:03,440
Adam God doctrine being
explained was removed, which is

1146
01:14:03,440 --> 01:14:08,400
an interesting idiot.
Secrecy or synchronicity, I

1147
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:12,880
guess you can call.
It look, these doctrines are so

1148
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:17,600
tightly tied together, right?
Adam, God, celestial, plural

1149
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:21,080
marriage, all these things are
tied kind of at the hip.

1150
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:26,440
And it's been my contention for
a long time that a lot of the

1151
01:14:26,440 --> 01:14:30,280
temple changes were in an were
an effort to get rid of the

1152
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,080
Adam, God doctrine.
Because if you go back to the

1153
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:36,240
old endowment and you take a
look, or if you've happened to

1154
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:41,320
participate in an old endowment,
it is a master class on Adam

1155
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:47,320
God, and the lecture at the veil
was the most explicit moment in

1156
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:50,640
the temple when Adam God was
caught plainly.

1157
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,400
Yep, Where it explained that the
things that you saw about being

1158
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:58,120
molded out of a out of clay was
symbolic in its nature.

1159
01:14:58,120 --> 01:15:01,560
And that Adam was born of
celestial parents on another

1160
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:04,440
world, being made of the dust of
that earth, but not of this

1161
01:15:04,440 --> 01:15:07,400
earth, you know, and so forth
and so on.

1162
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:11,200
And that he was classified
amongst the gods came to Eden

1163
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:15,360
with the celestial body.
Yeah, no, it it is.

1164
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:17,840
It is the bow that wraps it all
together.

1165
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:22,160
And you walk out of the temple
in those days understanding the

1166
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:24,680
mysteries of godliness like
never before.

1167
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:32,920
And and my my assertation to all
this has been or my assertion,

1168
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:36,760
excuse me, has been, that all
these temple changes that we

1169
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:41,120
have seen have been for one
reason and one reason alone and

1170
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:45,520
that is to distance ourselves as
far as we can from the Adam God

1171
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:53,440
doctrine period.
And you can't have, you can't

1172
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:55,800
have the Adam God doctrine
without plural marriage.

1173
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:57,800
I really believe that.
I agree.

1174
01:15:58,360 --> 01:16:00,520
They're they're tied so tightly
together.

1175
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:07,800
And when when when they're done,
like I fully expect at some

1176
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:11,480
point they will gut the
endowment entirely and maybe

1177
01:16:11,480 --> 01:16:15,600
it'll be about Christ, right.
And and that's not to say that

1178
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:17,480
things being about the Savior
are bad.

1179
01:16:17,480 --> 01:16:19,840
I I like that.
But that's not what was

1180
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:23,080
restored, right?
That's not what was there.

1181
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:28,040
Indeed.
And, and at some point, I think

1182
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:30,280
a major gutting is going to have
to happen.

1183
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:37,640
If that's what the church's end
goal is, why else would you get

1184
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:39,440
rid of the murals out of the
Salt Lake Temple?

1185
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:42,360
It's going to, yeah, something's
going to happen one way or

1186
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:44,360
another.
But I do know from my own

1187
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:52,000
experiences that the 2019
changes definitely removed atom

1188
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:57,080
theistic elements that were
present when I was in doubt in

1189
01:16:57,080 --> 01:16:59,840
2015.
Were removed.

1190
01:17:00,440 --> 01:17:01,320
Yeah.
Yep.

1191
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:07,920
Things that were very exalting
of Adam in 2015 were no longer

1192
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:09,400
there in 2019.
Yep.

1193
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:12,400
And then there's been more
changes since then.

1194
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:21,040
So going forward, still in
January 19, O 5, Francis Lyman

1195
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,960
goes up to Carsten to tell John
W Taylor that he has been

1196
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:27,760
summoned to testify in the Reed
Smoot hearings before the US

1197
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:30,600
Senate.
And in their conversation, John

1198
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:32,760
W Taylor reluctantly agrees to
go.

1199
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:37,200
Although he tells Francis M
Lyman, I will tell the truth, I

1200
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:38,880
warn you, I'm going to tell the
truth.

1201
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:43,600
And that night, as Apostle
Apostle, Lyman had a dream of a

1202
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:47,000
disaster that would result from
John W Taylor truthfully

1203
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:52,920
testifying in Washington, DC.
And the next morning, as John W

1204
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:56,480
Taylor was in route to the
railroad, Lyman flips his horse

1205
01:17:56,480 --> 01:17:59,720
and buggy around to intercept
him and tells him not to go.

1206
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:07,120
Look, if if if your goal is to
kind of whitewash things, that's

1207
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:11,880
not a bad thing because I I have
a feeling that that Taylor

1208
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:15,280
would, he would kick over the
tables a little bit, right?

1209
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:19,760
He would let you know exactly
kind of where where things stood

1210
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:25,440
because because when you read
John W Taylor again, he's not a

1211
01:18:25,440 --> 01:18:28,280
bashful guy, right?
And there's only so much

1212
01:18:28,280 --> 01:18:31,800
sidestepping that I feel like
he's going to do before he's

1213
01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:35,320
like, OK, let me break this down
for you and.

1214
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:38,000
I I always want to know how it
would have played out.

1215
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:40,320
That would have been something.
I mean that would have been more

1216
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:42,320
that would have been funnier
than what we just read about

1217
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:45,320
George Reynolds, Correct.
You know, writing the manifesto.

1218
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:50,000
Dude, when I get on the other
side, I want to hang with W

1219
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:51,960
Taylor for a little while,
right?

1220
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:54,800
I would.
I I I want to be like, please

1221
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:56,600
regale me with some of your
stories.

1222
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:03,880
Me too, man.
Me too, during this time.

1223
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:09,200
Well, you know, John W Taylor's
away in Canada.

1224
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:10,760
He's got family down there in
Utah.

1225
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:13,600
Still, he's able to kind of go
down pretending to be his

1226
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:17,720
brother, as we discussed.
But from time to time, but other

1227
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:21,760
times when he when his family
needed help, John M Cannon would

1228
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,800
come and help out.
And with Frank White Taylor,

1229
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:29,360
John WS brother and do things
like minister to the sick

1230
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:31,920
children, you know, take care of
the family while while John was

1231
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:37,960
in hiding.
Here is something that Matthias

1232
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:41,640
Cowley wrote to his family
regarding the Reed Smooth

1233
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:46,480
hearings afterwards.
So Matthias Cowley, in

1234
01:19:46,480 --> 01:19:50,480
Remembering the Reed Smoot Trial
wrote in 19 O 5.

1235
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:54,160
The agitation of hireling
priests and many misguided

1236
01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:57,840
people was strong against the
seating of Apostle Reed Smoot in

1237
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:01,520
the United States Senate.
The hue and cry was that many

1238
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:03,760
individuals had entered into
plural marriage since the

1239
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:07,040
Manifesto, among others, Brother
Taylor and myself.

1240
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:10,880
It was therefore thought
advisable for us to to resign

1241
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:12,960
our places in the Council of the
12.

1242
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:17,080
But before doing so, President
BH Roberts had made a speech, I

1243
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:21,040
understand by the request of the
Presidency, in which he said

1244
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:24,360
that unless, unless individuals
would shoulder the

1245
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:27,800
responsibility of these
marriages, the Church had not a

1246
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:30,600
foot of ground to stand on, and
that they were guilty of

1247
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:35,160
duplicity and double dealing.
We had meetings with the 12 for

1248
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:39,360
about 6 days, which the
presidency did not attend except

1249
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:42,800
a pair, a part of the first one.
No minutes of these meetings

1250
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:45,440
were kept.
That's interesting, in one of

1251
01:20:45,440 --> 01:20:48,920
these meetings, Elder Penrose
said, referring to Elder John W

1252
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:52,760
Taylor and myself.
And these are very nearly his

1253
01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:56,920
words, but I don't say them
verbatim, he said.

1254
01:20:57,160 --> 01:21:01,320
These brethren are not on trial.
They are not charged with

1255
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:06,160
disobedience nor transgression.
But we've all got in a box with

1256
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:09,440
the government and something
must be done to meet this fight.

1257
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:13,240
And if these brethren are
willing to be humiliated, they

1258
01:21:13,240 --> 01:21:17,800
can be reinstalled, Whereupon
Brother John Henry Smith threw

1259
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:20,800
up both hands and said yes, I'll
vote for them with both hands.

1260
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:22,960
This was the spirit of the
occasion.

1261
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:24,960
We had no arguments against our
brethren.

1262
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:28,120
After the last meeting, which
meetings were held in the

1263
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:32,200
temple, Brother Penrose brought
our resignations to us all,

1264
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:35,040
written with no suggestion from
us.

1265
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:38,560
Although Brother Taylor desired
to write his own, we signed

1266
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:42,800
them, and after doing so Brother
Penrose said he had no idea that

1267
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:47,000
they would go into effect and
would not unless matters came to

1268
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:50,440
the last ditch of necessity.
This was in the fall of nineteen

1269
01:21:50,440 --> 01:21:54,000
O 5 and at April conference of
19 O six.

1270
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:56,400
They were made public and became
of effect.

1271
01:21:57,480 --> 01:22:01,120
Holy crap.
Holy crap.

1272
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:07,480
So they prepare letters of
resignation from the quorum.

1273
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,280
Yep.
In October of 19 O five that

1274
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:14,920
were held on to for six months
until April of nineteen O 6 when

1275
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:20,200
they were issued this is it was
it was a it was the trump card

1276
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:23,120
it was the last ditch effort
they were basically they told

1277
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:26,440
Matthias Cowley and and and John
W we're not going to use this

1278
01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:31,960
unless we absolutely need to do.
You think anybody really meant

1279
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:38,440
that from on high from there any
indication, Is there any

1280
01:22:38,440 --> 01:22:42,880
indication in that six month
window that things got worse and

1281
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:46,880
they had to do this?
I don't know about worse as much

1282
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:49,440
as they didn't get better than
they were.

1283
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:52,960
But I do believe that
individuals like John Henry

1284
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:57,600
Smith, Roderick Clawson, George
Teasdale, Mariner Merrill, I

1285
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:01,480
cannot believe that those men
would not have wanted those men,

1286
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:04,120
John W and Matthias Cowley, to
be reinstated.

1287
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:06,960
And that's what Charles Penrose
said to them, is that you can be

1288
01:23:06,960 --> 01:23:08,400
reinstated when things calm
down.

1289
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:11,360
That's what they said as well.
So even we're not even going to

1290
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:14,560
do this right unless we need to.
And then when things calm down,

1291
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:17,760
we'll reinstate you, if it even
comes to that.

1292
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:23,240
That's what they were told.
OK, now I'm going to make a bold

1293
01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:24,720
statement here.
Couple of them.

1294
01:23:25,480 --> 01:23:34,160
OK. 1 The men that signed that
resignation letter performed an

1295
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:39,560
act of sacrifice that I believe
is is very Christ like.

1296
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:41,880
Yeah, I would agree.
I would agree.

1297
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:47,680
They they suffered humiliation
for this principle.

1298
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:53,120
Yep.
When asked to make maybe not the

1299
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:59,040
ultimate sacrifice, but close,
but close, they were like, OK,

1300
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:08,800
OK, next.
This is what you get when you

1301
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,440
surrender ground.
Every time.

1302
01:24:12,440 --> 01:24:18,560
Every single time.
And like, looking back now, it's

1303
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:21,920
madding, right?
It's like, stop, just stop.

1304
01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:25,360
OK, you surrendered.
This, you're you're you're on

1305
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:26,800
the DLI.
Get it?

1306
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:29,280
Let's stop.
No more, no more.

1307
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:39,760
And good on those guys for
making, making the hardest of

1308
01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:45,200
choices that not only affect
them, it affects their their

1309
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:48,200
wives, it affects their
children, right?

1310
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:52,160
I mean, Salt Lake's not that big
of a community in these days,

1311
01:24:52,360 --> 01:24:54,600
right?
I mean, and and the

1312
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:59,320
reverberations of this echo
across Utah and across the

1313
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:03,320
Mormon corridor.
Good on them.

1314
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:10,640
But shame on the powers that be.
Shame on the powers that be.

1315
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:15,320
No, I I agree with your
observations and I like your

1316
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:19,760
reminder of that Christ, like
sacrifice because as we noted

1317
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:22,560
earlier in that first episode,
that that seems to be the

1318
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:26,440
pattern for John W Taylor's life
in a big way that mirrors the

1319
01:25:26,440 --> 01:25:30,600
Savior.
And it was their work.

1320
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:33,120
And it wasn't just their work,
but they they they bore the

1321
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:35,240
brunt of the humiliation and the
sacrifice.

1322
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:39,400
But them and others were what,
you know, there were others who

1323
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:42,880
were willing to do as much, I'm
sure, and that allowed the

1324
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:46,640
principal to go forward.
And I will.

1325
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:50,360
I would like to pause from our
narrative to make a remark on

1326
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:52,840
why that's important.
Why is it important that the

1327
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:55,720
principle of celestial plural
marriage go forward?

1328
01:25:56,760 --> 01:26:00,360
Because if you go back to the
Journal of Discourses and read

1329
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:04,600
John Taylor Pres, you know,
father of John W Taylor read his

1330
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:06,120
testimony.
And I'm sure there's other

1331
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:11,640
testimonies that bear this out.
But John Taylor said that after

1332
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:14,120
we had been instructed by Joseph
Smith and Nauvoo about the

1333
01:26:14,120 --> 01:26:19,280
principle of plural marriage, we
were essentially in all this is

1334
01:26:19,280 --> 01:26:21,480
paraphrasing.
We were offended in our in our

1335
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:25,880
feelings enough that we wanted
to put off the evil day as far

1336
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:30,280
as we could, because they'd
grown up in a society where a

1337
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:34,760
certain idea of chastity and
virtue was held up as paramount

1338
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:37,000
and anything you know else was
offensive.

1339
01:26:38,200 --> 01:26:40,840
And so they put off entering
into the principal, until one

1340
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:44,840
day John Taylor was riding his
horse outside of Nauvoo and met

1341
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:50,120
Joseph Smith by the graveyard.
And Joseph told John Taylor, if

1342
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:53,360
you do not enter into this
principle, soon the keys will be

1343
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:56,400
turned against you.
But what does that mean?

1344
01:26:56,960 --> 01:26:59,480
Well, a key unlocks or locks a
door.

1345
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:03,400
Yep.
So he's saying that key will be

1346
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:05,960
turned against you locking that
door.

1347
01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:08,480
You're damned.
Yep, you'll be damned.

1348
01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:11,720
The priests and keys will be
turned against you.

1349
01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:14,200
Meaning you can't walk through
that door exercising them

1350
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:16,600
anymore.
Yeah, So what does?

1351
01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:20,920
What does our what does Brother
Malachi in the Old Testament

1352
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:24,280
say?
Behold, I will reveal unto you

1353
01:27:24,280 --> 01:27:27,800
the priesthood by the hand of
the prophet Elijah, and he'll

1354
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:32,800
place the promises made to the
fathers and the hearts of the

1355
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:34,280
children.
And the hearts of the children

1356
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:37,840
will turn to the fathers.
Were it not so, the earth will

1357
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:40,920
be utterly wasted.
That is coming, meaning the

1358
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:43,800
Lord's coming.
And so if those keys were lost,

1359
01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:49,120
you have two options, but one's
really not an option.

1360
01:27:49,160 --> 01:27:51,200
The two.
The hypothetical is they would

1361
01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:55,800
have to be re restored otherwise
the earth is wasted but or they

1362
01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:58,760
need to stay here.
So it's one of the what's one of

1363
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:02,680
the two, but it can't be re
restored because otherwise

1364
01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:06,120
Joseph Smith did not fulfill his
mission in restoring all the

1365
01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:08,840
keys for the last time.
Furthermore, it turns the Lord

1366
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:12,040
into a liar because the Lord
gave us assurances that the keys

1367
01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:13,800
would never be taken from the
earth again.

1368
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:17,440
Absolutely.
And so the only other option is

1369
01:28:17,440 --> 01:28:22,880
that it has to continue on.
And gosh, sometimes I'm even

1370
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:24,760
astounded by my level of
nerdness.

1371
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:28,400
It's like that scene out of the
first Star Wars where he tells

1372
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:31,960
Vader, strike me down and I'll
just become stronger.

1373
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:35,720
And ultimately that's what
happens with Taylor.

1374
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:39,720
You know, he doesn't see it in
his lifetime, but.

1375
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:44,040
But it's John W Taylor that
really sets the precedent.

1376
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:48,000
And that's the other thing.
This act of selfless sacrifice

1377
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:52,920
and bravery then sets an example
for the rest of us.

1378
01:28:53,080 --> 01:28:56,040
Right?
Like, what are you going to say

1379
01:28:56,040 --> 01:29:03,240
when John W Taylor, the son of a
prophet, says, you know what?

1380
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:05,920
You want to take my membership.
You want to kick me out of the

1381
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:08,640
quorum?
OK, But I'm going to die on the

1382
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:11,400
hill of principle over and over
and over.

1383
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:14,640
Now let's look at the reverse of
this.

1384
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:19,400
What does this ultimately do?
This sets a pattern that I'm

1385
01:29:19,400 --> 01:29:22,880
sorry, the LDS church has fallen
into over and over, which is

1386
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:30,560
capitulation, which is weak.
Need look, if I may have to edit

1387
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:34,480
this later, but I'm going to say
it now, for so long.

1388
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:39,040
I was waiting for somebody up
top to let the other nut drop

1389
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:42,400
and become a man and stand up
for principle.

1390
01:29:43,080 --> 01:29:46,920
And it just wouldn't happen.
It just wouldn't happen.

1391
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:50,040
And I figured out after looking
at the history, OK, you want the

1392
01:29:50,040 --> 01:29:53,280
gospel fullness, you better be
willing to give some stuff up.

1393
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:56,080
You better be willing to walk
through the fire, and you better

1394
01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:58,080
be willing to hold your head
high while doing it.

1395
01:29:58,440 --> 01:30:05,440
Or else this it won't work.
And that's just where it is.

1396
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:10,880
On one side you had a guy who
made sure that those keys stayed

1397
01:30:11,520 --> 01:30:15,160
on earth to fulfill prophecy,
and on the other side you had

1398
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:19,360
weak knees, and that weak knee
led to the situation we're in,

1399
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:25,560
yeah.
Well, I'm certainly grateful for

1400
01:30:26,440 --> 01:30:29,360
all that was done to perpetuate
the priesthood on earth.

1401
01:30:29,680 --> 01:30:31,960
And we're going to, and that's
what we're that's what we're

1402
01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:34,080
studying right here.
And I hope it's insightful to

1403
01:30:34,080 --> 01:30:38,560
those people who are listening.
So that was, we kind of jumped

1404
01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:42,720
ahead in our narrative.
So that was October of nineteen

1405
01:30:42,720 --> 01:30:44,960
O 5 when those statements were
signed.

1406
01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:50,520
But go backing up to February of
19 O 5A post manifesto

1407
01:30:50,520 --> 01:30:55,440
polygamist named Josiah E
Hickman writes in his journal.

1408
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:59,520
Oh, but our people are howling
over the supposed marriages

1409
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:03,520
Since the manifesto it is
principally those who never

1410
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:05,120
believed or entered into plural
marriage.

1411
01:31:05,480 --> 01:31:08,640
It seems that a large percentage
of our people are joining hands

1412
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:11,440
with our enemies to fight those
who have entered into this

1413
01:31:11,440 --> 01:31:14,840
principle.
There is a division between or

1414
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:19,120
among the leaders of the Church.
I am fearful of the threatened

1415
01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:22,880
consequences.
So that's a full six months

1416
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:26,520
before that.
Those resignations are prepared

1417
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:32,880
April of nineteen O 5 in general
conference, contrary to Apostle.

1418
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:35,720
Read Smooth's wishes because
he's running for, you know,

1419
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:42,520
Senator Still, Mathias Cowley
and John W Taylor were presented

1420
01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:46,800
as General Authorities, But I
suppose Brother Smoot had asked

1421
01:31:46,800 --> 01:31:50,920
them not to be sustained as
General Authorities, but they

1422
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:52,840
were presented as General
Authorities regardless.

1423
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:59,200
And after one of the sessions, a
son of President Anthony H Wand,

1424
01:31:59,200 --> 01:32:05,440
told Reed Smoot, Secretary Carl
Badger, quote John W Taylor has

1425
01:32:05,440 --> 01:32:09,320
done right whatever he has done
in reference to the subject of

1426
01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:13,400
polygamy.
Woo, spitting some fire.

1427
01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:17,080
So the Lunge family is pretty
strong it looks like on that

1428
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:23,800
one, August 5th, 19 O 5, Fred W
Merrill, son of Mariner W

1429
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:26,800
Merrill, marries his second wife
and they are married in the

1430
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:30,160
Logan Temple by his father
Mariner W Merrill.

1431
01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:34,640
So you have Apostle Mariner
Merrill helping his son become a

1432
01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:36,400
Post Second Manifesto
polygamist.

1433
01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:40,080
Yeah, but somehow he escapes the
wrath.

1434
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:44,840
Yeah, yeah.
Interesting.

1435
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:52,880
September 6th, 19 O 5 Apparently
I didn't realize this.

1436
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:55,800
My notes say that this is
information coming from the

1437
01:32:55,800 --> 01:33:00,040
diary of Edward J Wood, who's
president of the Alberta Steak

1438
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:06,520
and Future Temple President up
there a the Superintendent of

1439
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:09,720
Church Schools.
And Joseph M Tanner marries his

1440
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:12,880
sixth wife up there in Cardston,
AB, Canada.

1441
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:18,920
Whoa, yeah, Post Second
manifesto.

1442
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:22,440
Post second so his post 1st and
post second because he married

1443
01:33:22,440 --> 01:33:26,960
his fifth wife back in like 19 O
one or nineteen O 319 O3.

1444
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:29,360
When we first started the
podcast, he came up on this

1445
01:33:29,360 --> 01:33:34,200
episode September 16th, 10 days
after that, the Apostle Matthias

1446
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:38,320
F Cowley marries his fourth wife
in Cardston.

1447
01:33:38,720 --> 01:33:41,600
It's performed by John A Wolf,
who was set apart by John W

1448
01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:46,400
Taylor and Joseph F Smith.
Patriarch Wolf also marries

1449
01:33:46,440 --> 01:33:54,600
Ernest Guy Taylor and third wife
to his third wife, Lily Susanna

1450
01:33:54,600 --> 01:34:02,680
Hicks, and down in Colonia
Juarez in Mexico, on the other

1451
01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:07,280
side of North America, President
Joseph F Smith publicly

1452
01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:11,880
announces So on the same day
that Patriarch Wolf is

1453
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:14,440
performing plural marriages in
Canada, he and President Smith

1454
01:34:14,440 --> 01:34:18,720
announces, quote, there are no
plural marriages being performed

1455
01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:22,040
at present in the church in
Mexico or anywhere else.

1456
01:34:26,040 --> 01:34:31,560
Hours hours later, after he says
that in the home of President

1457
01:34:31,560 --> 01:34:39,440
Anthony W Ivins, he authorizes
Joseph W Summerhays, who asked

1458
01:34:39,440 --> 01:34:46,240
back in 1898 and took his second
or third whatever was his a for

1459
01:34:46,240 --> 01:34:47,560
a life.
I think it was his third life.

1460
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:53,720
In 19 O3, he authorizes Joseph
Summerhays to marry a former

1461
01:34:53,720 --> 01:34:58,160
mission president, William J or
William G Sears, down there in

1462
01:34:58,160 --> 01:35:06,400
Mexico right after telling the
people there's no plural

1463
01:35:06,400 --> 01:35:09,480
marriages.
Look, I don't blame people for

1464
01:35:09,480 --> 01:35:11,320
being confused during that time
period.

1465
01:35:11,320 --> 01:35:14,120
I'm confused now.
I'm like, does Joseph F Smith

1466
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:16,680
mean this?
And then maybe it's happening

1467
01:35:16,680 --> 01:35:19,120
unbeknownst to him.
What is going on?

1468
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:25,960
That stops.
But I mean, but here these guys

1469
01:35:25,960 --> 01:35:31,320
like Joseph Summer Hayes, Joseph
M Tanner, Henry S Tanner, Joseph

1470
01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:35,360
E Robinson, who's helping out
with, you know, Brother Clawson.

1471
01:35:36,120 --> 01:35:40,760
You know, like these people are
interconnected at this level

1472
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:46,480
where it's OK, at least four.
I mean to be instructive not not

1473
01:35:46,480 --> 01:35:49,440
only.
I mean the the traditions that

1474
01:35:49,440 --> 01:35:51,840
we get the things that we've
heard is when when Matthias

1475
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:55,600
Callie or John W Taylor would go
to President Smith and ask can I

1476
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:58,200
can I take another wife as
president of the church.

1477
01:35:58,200 --> 01:35:59,880
I can't tell you.
You can't.

1478
01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:03,360
Right.
You know, but then here we have

1479
01:36:03,360 --> 01:36:07,800
him explicitly instructing
Joseph Summer Hayes, who was

1480
01:36:07,800 --> 01:36:10,360
traveling with him on this trip
to Mexico to go perform a plural

1481
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:14,680
marriage.
Yeah, yeah.

1482
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:20,400
Do you think Joseph F Smith dies
Holding on to this, probably

1483
01:36:20,920 --> 01:36:22,200
from.
From what I've heard, yeah,

1484
01:36:22,200 --> 01:36:23,560
pretty much OK.
From.

1485
01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:33,840
What I've heard, what I know, I
absolutely think so October the

1486
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:36,440
see we we're back to October.
Now that's when the Council of

1487
01:36:36,440 --> 01:36:40,040
12 meets to deal with Matthias
Cowley and John W Taylor.

1488
01:36:43,480 --> 01:36:49,560
They signed that on October 18th
and 19th 19 O 5 December of

1489
01:36:49,560 --> 01:36:56,040
nineteen O 5, George F Gibbs, a
Secretary to the First

1490
01:36:56,040 --> 01:37:00,640
Presidency Rights to Senator
Smoot, saying Brethren beginning

1491
01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:04,440
to feel that John W Taylor and
Callie should not be sacrificed

1492
01:37:04,440 --> 01:37:08,000
unless required by the Committee
of privileges and Ejections to

1493
01:37:08,000 --> 01:37:16,040
save you.
So it's against the the feel of

1494
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:20,280
the quorum, generally speaking
to to even announce that that

1495
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:25,840
had happened on December 8th.
He sends George F Gibbs,

1496
01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:28,080
Secretary to the First
Presidency sends an encrypted

1497
01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:30,320
Telegraph to Apostle Smoot
advising him.

1498
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:34,240
When you become convinced the
action should not be delayed any

1499
01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:38,080
longer, let us know.
And I feel to say to you that if

1500
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:42,440
you will cast aside forever all
thought of making a sacrifice

1501
01:37:42,440 --> 01:37:45,680
out of apostles Taylor and
Cowley, you will begin to see

1502
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:48,520
your way brighten.
For such a thing cannot be done

1503
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:53,520
simply in the hope of avoiding
drastic legislation, nor for the

1504
01:37:53,520 --> 01:37:56,880
purpose of convincing friends
that Joseph F Smith is honest.

1505
01:37:58,160 --> 01:38:00,920
So the the he's, they're flat
out, they're getting warned.

1506
01:38:00,920 --> 01:38:04,240
Don't do this.
And if you don't do this, you

1507
01:38:04,240 --> 01:38:06,840
can expect blessings to come.
Yep.

1508
01:38:09,480 --> 01:38:12,840
So that's probably coming from
President Smith trying to save

1509
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:15,360
Taylor and Cowley's butt.
Yeah.

1510
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:20,000
Because, as we saw from Matthias
Cowley earlier, the First

1511
01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:22,840
Presidency did not attend those
meetings of the Quorum of the 12

1512
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:29,320
where that was discussed.
OK again, Tinfoil Hat time.

1513
01:38:30,000 --> 01:38:35,800
Now you have to wonder, was this
the moment that there was a

1514
01:38:35,800 --> 01:38:43,080
takeover by the 12 in spite of
the First Presidency?

1515
01:38:44,040 --> 01:38:46,160
It could be.
I think Francis M Lyman is

1516
01:38:46,160 --> 01:38:47,440
president of the Coral of the
12.

1517
01:38:47,440 --> 01:38:49,920
I can double check that real
quick if you want me to.

1518
01:38:50,240 --> 01:38:54,160
Yeah, because I think this shows
motive and intent, right?

1519
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:58,080
If if the First Presidency is
not Privy to this message to

1520
01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:03,800
this meeting and next thing you
know they're they're given a

1521
01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:07,800
document that because now I'm,
I'm having second thoughts right

1522
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:11,760
now, I'm like, OK, maybe they
were serious that yes, you'll

1523
01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:14,920
you'll have to be humiliated for
a while but then we'll bring you

1524
01:39:14,920 --> 01:39:17,640
right back up.
I'm starting to think they never

1525
01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:20,920
had any intent of bringing them
back aboard.

1526
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:28,000
So let's look at the roster here
of General Authorities at this

1527
01:39:28,000 --> 01:39:29,280
point in time that we're dealing
with this.

1528
01:39:29,280 --> 01:39:32,200
Francis M Lyman is President of
the Quorum of the 12.

1529
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:36,960
He became President of the
Quorum of the 12 after the death

1530
01:39:36,960 --> 01:39:40,520
of Brigham Young Junior on April
11th, 1903.

1531
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:43,360
So Brigham Young Junior was
President of the Quorum of the

1532
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:45,960
12 up to that point from
whenever he became President of

1533
01:39:45,960 --> 01:39:48,920
the Quorum.
Members of the Quorum of the 12

1534
01:39:48,920 --> 01:39:56,520
at this point are Francis M
Lyman, John Henry Smith, he's

1535
01:39:56,520 --> 01:40:00,120
pro polygamy.
George Teasdale, he's pro

1536
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:01,360
polygamy.
Heber J.

1537
01:40:01,360 --> 01:40:03,480
Grant has been pro polygamy up
to this point.

1538
01:40:04,120 --> 01:40:08,520
John W Taylor, Mariner Merrill,
Mathias F Callie, Rodger Clawson

1539
01:40:09,320 --> 01:40:14,440
and then the next four junior to
them are Reed Smoot, Hiram Mack

1540
01:40:14,440 --> 01:40:18,000
Smith, George Albert Smith and
Charles W Penrose.

1541
01:40:19,400 --> 01:40:25,040
And all of those are for or
against those last four.

1542
01:40:25,280 --> 01:40:33,920
Charles Penrose had in his youth
always been very pro polygamy.

1543
01:40:33,920 --> 01:40:36,080
I don't, I believe he was
probably a practicing

1544
01:40:36,080 --> 01:40:40,560
polygamist, but at this point
being made a general authority

1545
01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:44,840
is probably toeing the line of
public appeal because he's also

1546
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:47,520
one of the attorneys and he
wrote the manifesto and helped

1547
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:48,600
write it.
So I think that's kind of the

1548
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:52,960
way he's going more with that.
I know that George Albert Smith

1549
01:40:52,960 --> 01:40:57,600
was kind of friends with Joseph
Mosser and and George George

1550
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:00,480
Albert Smith is the son of John
Henry Smith but he would never

1551
01:41:00,480 --> 01:41:08,360
entered the principal and Hiram
Max Smith I think was is Hiram

1552
01:41:08,360 --> 01:41:12,840
Max Smith is a son of Joseph F
Smith and brother to future

1553
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:14,880
president of the church Joseph
Fielding Smith.

1554
01:41:16,120 --> 01:41:18,720
OK.
And he never entered the

1555
01:41:18,720 --> 01:41:21,480
principal either.
But I don't know if I could say

1556
01:41:21,480 --> 01:41:25,520
that he was against it.
But being a junior member and

1557
01:41:26,120 --> 01:41:30,480
probably not being aware of the
these intricate inner circles

1558
01:41:30,480 --> 01:41:34,240
that we've been discussing,
probably wasn't in favor of it

1559
01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:36,280
either.
Yeah, he wasn't against it.

1560
01:41:36,280 --> 01:41:38,360
It wasn't promoting it, I should
say.

1561
01:41:38,960 --> 01:41:41,720
So you think Lyman could have
had influence over those junior

1562
01:41:41,720 --> 01:41:44,760
members?
Easy.

1563
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:47,560
Easy.
Him And with him and between him

1564
01:41:47,560 --> 01:41:51,080
and Penrose, if they were
agreed, yeah, they they would

1565
01:41:51,080 --> 01:41:52,800
have.
So you have a split right down

1566
01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:56,240
the middle, 6:00 to 6:00.
And Penrose is problematic

1567
01:41:56,520 --> 01:41:59,920
because I know that when the
Church stopped conferring

1568
01:41:59,920 --> 01:42:02,680
priesthood and just started
ordaining right to the office,

1569
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:06,040
that was according to Penrose.
So Heber J.

1570
01:42:06,040 --> 01:42:08,240
Grant would say, I'm not a
theologian.

1571
01:42:08,240 --> 01:42:12,000
When it comes to matters of
theology, I defer to Penrose,

1572
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:15,920
right?
There's a there's a beautiful

1573
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:22,560
talk on the Godhead in the last
volume of the Journal of

1574
01:42:22,560 --> 01:42:25,920
Discourses that I really love
from Charles Penrose.

1575
01:42:26,480 --> 01:42:29,320
It's about it's about the
Godhead and exaltation and how

1576
01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:30,720
we've become exalted and all
that.

1577
01:42:31,080 --> 01:42:33,680
It's really, it's really a good
talk, you know, given in about

1578
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:38,640
1886 or so, you know, But I saw,
I don't know fully what the deal

1579
01:42:38,640 --> 01:42:41,760
was or what happened.
And I'm not saying Charles

1580
01:42:41,760 --> 01:42:44,640
Penrose is a bad person, but
yeah, definitely not our guy in

1581
01:42:44,640 --> 01:42:46,440
this fight, for sure.
Right.

1582
01:42:48,200 --> 01:42:51,160
Definitely not our guy or the
continuation of conferring

1583
01:42:51,160 --> 01:42:52,000
priesthood.
Either.

1584
01:42:52,520 --> 01:42:54,480
No, no.
So we're split down the middle.

1585
01:42:54,640 --> 01:42:59,800
We So from 19 O1 we went with a
complete unanimous to 19 O five.

1586
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:02,520
We're split right down the
middle, which is going to change

1587
01:43:02,520 --> 01:43:05,920
because Matthias Cowley and John
W Taylor get dropped right after

1588
01:43:05,920 --> 01:43:07,800
this, right?
They haven't been dropped yet,

1589
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:09,640
but they sign their resignation
letters.

1590
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:11,760
Yeah.
Members of the First Presidency,

1591
01:43:11,840 --> 01:43:15,840
however, are Joseph F Smith and
Anthony Chalund and John R

1592
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:19,200
Winder.
Those are faithful people right

1593
01:43:19,200 --> 01:43:19,520
there.
Right.

1594
01:43:21,160 --> 01:43:25,560
So we have We have letters from
the First Presidency secretary

1595
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:28,680
telling Reed Smith not to
sacrifice Kelly and Taylor

1596
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:37,640
Family tradition from the Taylor
family says that Janet Taylor or

1597
01:43:37,640 --> 01:43:40,000
Nettie Taylor, you know Nettie
Woolley.

1598
01:43:40,240 --> 01:43:44,680
Taylor told her son that Joseph
F Smith at the time of the

1599
01:43:44,680 --> 01:43:50,200
resignations in 19 O five had
said to John W and Callie quote,

1600
01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:53,160
You brethren, are called upon to
make the sacrifice, but you will

1601
01:43:53,160 --> 01:43:56,760
lose nothing from it.
When things quiet down, you will

1602
01:43:56,760 --> 01:44:00,480
be reinstated.
Interesting.

1603
01:44:00,880 --> 01:44:02,640
How would how would they have
done that?

1604
01:44:05,240 --> 01:44:07,280
I don't know.
How would they have done that?

1605
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:10,800
Because you're you're gonna find
replacements for those, yeah?

1606
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:12,440
That's true.
That's true.

1607
01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:15,320
Unless brought into the first
presidency.

1608
01:44:15,840 --> 01:44:16,800
Maybe.
Counselors.

1609
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:19,120
Yeah, Maybe.
Perhaps, Yeah.

1610
01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:23,000
But that would have been, but
that would have been a public

1611
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:25,160
outrage.
Have they done that?

1612
01:44:25,160 --> 01:44:27,440
Oh, I don't know.
I would have loved to have seen

1613
01:44:27,440 --> 01:44:29,000
it though.
Oh yeah.

1614
01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:33,760
I mean for after all that being
said and done in the Reef Snow

1615
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:37,080
hearings, for President Smith to
bring John W and Matthias Cowley

1616
01:44:37,280 --> 01:44:41,920
into the First Presidency, yeah,
that would have been great.

1617
01:44:43,120 --> 01:44:46,120
Well, I just can.
We.

1618
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:51,080
I just can't shake the feeling
that that Lyman is behind all of

1619
01:44:51,080 --> 01:44:53,360
this.
I'm guessing he's already got

1620
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:56,720
anti polygamy guys waiting in
the wings to take those seats.

1621
01:44:57,880 --> 01:44:59,880
Yeah, that's that's possibly
true.

1622
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:02,960
I'm just guessing I'm
theorizing.

1623
01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:05,160
Let's see.
Well, well, well, yes and no,

1624
01:45:05,160 --> 01:45:09,960
because who replaces them are
George F Richards.

1625
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:11,400
He's again, he's kind of against
it.

1626
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:13,960
And he was responsible for
changing the temple ordinances

1627
01:45:13,960 --> 01:45:17,800
in 1923.
So George F Richards, Orson F

1628
01:45:17,800 --> 01:45:23,520
Whitney, and David O McKay.
OK, David O McKay, we've already

1629
01:45:23,520 --> 01:45:26,800
covered, is kind of sympathetic.
And so is Orson F Whitney.

1630
01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:32,280
OK.
So very, just very interesting.

1631
01:45:32,600 --> 01:45:37,280
Let's see, Matthias Cowley
writes to one of John W Taylor's

1632
01:45:37,280 --> 01:45:42,720
sons later in 1937 and says
regarding these events.

1633
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:47,840
When we were in council relative
to our trouble, Brother Penrose

1634
01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:50,200
remarked.
These brethren are not on trial,

1635
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:54,040
nor have they committed any
offense, but if they are willing

1636
01:45:54,040 --> 01:45:57,720
to offer the sacrifice and stand
the embarrassment, we will admit

1637
01:45:57,720 --> 01:46:01,200
them back after the situation
clears or words to that effect.

1638
01:46:02,960 --> 01:46:07,240
Is there any indication that
that John W Taylor really thinks

1639
01:46:07,240 --> 01:46:10,600
this is going to happen, that
he's going to be reinstated?

1640
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:13,560
Is there anything from his
journals that state yeah, Oh

1641
01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:18,200
yeah I'm I'm good.
I I would be to know what what

1642
01:46:18,200 --> 01:46:24,400
his what his thoughts were about
him signing this resignation if

1643
01:46:24,400 --> 01:46:26,320
he honestly thought he'd be
brought back in.

1644
01:46:26,880 --> 01:46:30,160
In his own words, at one point
where I have been sacrificed for

1645
01:46:30,160 --> 01:46:32,320
Reed Smoot's political
ambitions.

1646
01:46:34,160 --> 01:46:36,160
You want to talk about the
biggest?

1647
01:46:37,400 --> 01:46:45,720
The 11 of the moments that has
to backfire is not only do we as

1648
01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:51,480
Mormons during this time period
sacrifice a a good man so that

1649
01:46:51,480 --> 01:46:55,440
Reed Smoot could get elected,
but later Reed Smoot would

1650
01:46:55,440 --> 01:46:59,680
single handedly be responsible
for the deepening of a loss of

1651
01:46:59,680 --> 01:47:04,680
wealth that this country hasn't
seen ever since.

1652
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:09,960
Talk about reaping what you sow.
That's that's a good

1653
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:11,600
correlation.
Like we was, you know, like you

1654
01:47:11,600 --> 01:47:15,640
said.
I think I would share one more

1655
01:47:15,640 --> 01:47:17,560
thing.
And I think maybe we stopped

1656
01:47:17,560 --> 01:47:21,160
this episode because it's a good
stopping point and we can

1657
01:47:21,160 --> 01:47:23,520
discuss it obviously and just go
where it takes us.

1658
01:47:23,520 --> 01:47:27,640
But so we're entering into
nineteen O 6.

1659
01:47:28,400 --> 01:47:32,960
We know what has been decided by
the form of the 12, and this is

1660
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:36,080
what Hebrew J Grant has to say
about it at this point in his

1661
01:47:36,080 --> 01:47:38,160
life.
He writes in his journal on

1662
01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:43,400
January 5th, 19 O 6, What they
have done, I have done or

1663
01:47:43,400 --> 01:47:46,840
intended to do.
And in so doing I would have

1664
01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:51,160
done what I thought had the
approval of my brethren.

1665
01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:56,600
Brother John Henry can tell you
of the Brown and Romney cases

1666
01:47:56,600 --> 01:48:00,480
when we were in Mexico and of my
protest, and of the final action

1667
01:48:01,200 --> 01:48:04,280
before I went to Japan.
My president intimated that I

1668
01:48:04,280 --> 01:48:08,000
had better take the action
needed to increase my family.

1669
01:48:08,640 --> 01:48:12,360
It is circumstances that have
prevented me from being guilty.

1670
01:48:12,640 --> 01:48:17,640
I claim no credit.
So he's almost lamenting that he

1671
01:48:17,640 --> 01:48:21,400
wasn't in the same position as
they were, you know, or he's

1672
01:48:21,400 --> 01:48:24,080
wishing that he had been as
valiant as they had been.

1673
01:48:24,080 --> 01:48:27,000
And he says the only difference
is between me and them.

1674
01:48:27,320 --> 01:48:31,040
I would have done what they did.
I had no opportunity with the

1675
01:48:31,040 --> 01:48:38,320
same motive.
Oh, is this is this where Hebrew

1676
01:48:38,320 --> 01:48:40,000
you think kind of starts to go
sour?

1677
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:42,960
I.
I.

1678
01:48:42,960 --> 01:48:47,320
Start to see from the journal
records I have about.

1679
01:48:47,320 --> 01:48:52,440
In about a year or two, the tone
starts to change, but it's not

1680
01:48:52,440 --> 01:48:56,000
fully right now to.
Me, this?

1681
01:48:56,000 --> 01:49:02,840
This smacks of a man who has
some envy, right?

1682
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:07,400
And later, I think that envy
will turn into something like if

1683
01:49:07,400 --> 01:49:11,080
we can just forget about this,
maybe I can forget about my own

1684
01:49:11,080 --> 01:49:16,920
shame.
I think it really is a tragedy

1685
01:49:17,280 --> 01:49:21,160
to see a man who's called by
revelation like he was with.

1686
01:49:21,680 --> 01:49:24,000
And you have, you can see the
counterpart with George Teasdale

1687
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:29,320
and he's been pretty faithful
and it looks like the Hebrew J

1688
01:49:29,320 --> 01:49:33,280
would have been faithful too.
And I don't know, maybe it's he

1689
01:49:33,280 --> 01:49:36,000
says, you know, and he's
lamenting over the lack of

1690
01:49:36,000 --> 01:49:38,760
opportunity.
But what could have been

1691
01:49:38,760 --> 01:49:42,520
different maybe if the pursuits
of his own life had been a

1692
01:49:42,520 --> 01:49:48,400
little different in regards to
business versus being more

1693
01:49:48,400 --> 01:49:50,960
active in in going for those
kind of things.

1694
01:49:50,960 --> 01:49:55,800
Those things don't just, I mean
they'll come to you if you're

1695
01:49:55,800 --> 01:49:57,320
lucky.
I'm not saying that they don't

1696
01:49:57,320 --> 01:50:00,000
ever come to you, but you got to
work for them generally.

1697
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:03,480
You can't say it's just going to
come to you if it, you know put

1698
01:50:03,480 --> 01:50:06,840
it in the Lord's hand.
You know it's you have every

1699
01:50:06,840 --> 01:50:09,520
once in a while that an Angel
will come where a visitor will

1700
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:12,720
tell you this is or a vision
will be given to you that has

1701
01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:16,320
saying this is the wife that
you'll marry or this is the

1702
01:50:16,320 --> 01:50:18,800
husband that you'll have but
he's already married to another

1703
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:20,800
lady.
You know in the case for them,

1704
01:50:21,560 --> 01:50:25,680
yeah, but it's those things have
to be worked for and labored for

1705
01:50:25,680 --> 01:50:29,080
if you want them.
But generally speaking.

1706
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:36,160
And it looks like what we see is
a lot of people, and we will see

1707
01:50:36,160 --> 01:50:37,640
this in the future going
forward.

1708
01:50:38,440 --> 01:50:42,000
Is people asking, People are
asking, can this be done?

1709
01:50:42,000 --> 01:50:45,320
You know, Joseph Summerhays
asked Joseph F Smith, can this

1710
01:50:45,320 --> 01:50:48,080
be done?
And six years later, he's

1711
01:50:48,080 --> 01:50:49,800
performing.
He's being pulled by President

1712
01:50:49,800 --> 01:50:53,760
Smith to go to perform plural
marriages down in Mexico.

1713
01:50:58,080 --> 01:51:00,160
Yeah, 'cause we don't, we don't
have a lot.

1714
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:03,920
Do we have many records?
I I should probably phrase this

1715
01:51:03,920 --> 01:51:05,400
in a question, 'cause I don't
know.

1716
01:51:05,920 --> 01:51:09,000
Do we have a lot of evidence
that Hebrew J.

1717
01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:10,880
Grant was performing plural
marriages.

1718
01:51:12,200 --> 01:51:15,640
We have the one that he mentions
with He married a brother Brown

1719
01:51:15,640 --> 01:51:21,120
and a brother Romney in Mexico
under the direction of John

1720
01:51:21,120 --> 01:51:24,760
Henry Smith.
It looks like while there was

1721
01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:29,360
initial protest, it's causing
him to have a lot of sympathy

1722
01:51:29,360 --> 01:51:31,800
for Brother Taylor and Brother
Callie at this exact moment in

1723
01:51:31,800 --> 01:51:35,600
history.
But he also remember when he was

1724
01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:41,680
in California, as in the mission
field, he told some of the

1725
01:51:41,680 --> 01:51:45,080
missionaries who were in the
field who had wives at home, who

1726
01:51:45,240 --> 01:51:50,520
could not have children, that if
you come to me, we can go down

1727
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:53,400
to Mexico and we can take care
of, we can get you another wife

1728
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:54,920
so that you can have some
children.

1729
01:51:55,480 --> 01:52:00,200
So he was in favor of that.
He told in the Reedspoot

1730
01:52:00,200 --> 01:52:03,760
hearings that he was going to
continue to marry and cohabitate

1731
01:52:03,760 --> 01:52:07,320
with his wives until he had a
son, because the sons that he

1732
01:52:07,320 --> 01:52:10,880
had had up to this point had
died in their youth.

1733
01:52:12,520 --> 01:52:16,720
And there is even a story told
by ruling Allred that in about

1734
01:52:16,720 --> 01:52:22,320
1923, when Hebrew J Grant was
president of the church and when

1735
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:26,080
the Cardston Temple was
dedicated, that Byron Harvey,

1736
01:52:26,080 --> 01:52:30,440
Allred junior, who had married
Mary Evelyn Clark, Ruling's

1737
01:52:30,440 --> 01:52:33,800
mother in Mexico.
They had found their way up to

1738
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:36,560
Canada.
And Byron Allred goes to

1739
01:52:36,560 --> 01:52:39,000
President Grant.
Who's there for the dedication?

1740
01:52:39,280 --> 01:52:40,920
He asks.
He asks Heber J.

1741
01:52:40,920 --> 01:52:43,720
Grant.
This was done down there in

1742
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:45,600
Mexico.
Can we redo it?

1743
01:52:45,600 --> 01:52:47,480
Can we have it redone in the
temple now?

1744
01:52:49,240 --> 01:52:52,080
And Heber J Grant said yes.
What?

1745
01:52:52,080 --> 01:52:54,360
We can reseal that, make it a
matter of record.

1746
01:52:54,760 --> 01:53:03,080
He is so he's such an enigma
because I, I we have our

1747
01:53:03,080 --> 01:53:08,120
theories about when he turns.
But but it's like he turns and

1748
01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:12,320
then he turns back, right?
And there's this tension with

1749
01:53:12,320 --> 01:53:16,840
Heber that we never really get
fully resolved on when he he

1750
01:53:16,840 --> 01:53:20,400
just flips that that switch.
Yeah, I I don't know.

1751
01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:27,040
I The epistle of James in the
New Testament says that a double

1752
01:53:27,040 --> 01:53:30,000
minded man is unstable in all of
his ways.

1753
01:53:30,320 --> 01:53:32,800
Well, yeah, and that's what it
sounds like to me.

1754
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:38,440
And but at the same time, I
can't say he didn't do some good

1755
01:53:38,440 --> 01:53:44,600
work, you know, And there's a
but there definitely was a

1756
01:53:44,600 --> 01:53:49,880
turning point and I think even
before 1923, there it was.

1757
01:53:50,320 --> 01:53:51,880
He had pretty much changed his
mind.

1758
01:53:53,760 --> 01:53:57,640
I think Byron all Byron Allred
was given an exception because

1759
01:53:58,160 --> 01:54:02,640
his marriage to the second wife
had occurred in 19 O 1.

1760
01:54:02,920 --> 01:54:07,480
So it's before 2nd manifesto
that ends up kind of being the

1761
01:54:07,480 --> 01:54:12,600
litmus test for how things are
handled in.

1762
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:16,520
So what happens is jumping
forward in the future, in 19 O

1763
01:54:16,520 --> 01:54:22,440
9, Francis M Lyman starts to do
serious investigations regarding

1764
01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:25,840
everything that's happening with
new plural marriages.

1765
01:54:26,280 --> 01:54:30,560
And basically the line of
demarcation is if it was before

1766
01:54:31,520 --> 01:54:36,200
April 6th, 19 O four, we will
not excommunicate you, but if

1767
01:54:36,200 --> 01:54:40,720
it's found out to be publicized
that you have taken a wife

1768
01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:44,360
between the Woodruff Manifesto
and the 2nd Manifesto, we'll

1769
01:54:44,360 --> 01:54:47,760
keep you in the church.
But if you have a calling of

1770
01:54:47,760 --> 01:54:49,280
high leadership.
We're.

1771
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:52,480
We're going to ask you to leave
your We're going to drop you

1772
01:54:52,920 --> 01:54:55,160
from your calling, but you
retain your membership.

1773
01:54:55,400 --> 01:54:58,200
But if it's after the second
one, you lose your membership.

1774
01:54:58,720 --> 01:55:01,080
See, and that's fascinating
because that's the exact

1775
01:55:01,080 --> 01:55:04,200
opposite of what originally
happened under Brigham Young

1776
01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:06,600
when he thought like the
practice was just not being

1777
01:55:06,600 --> 01:55:10,320
lived, where he said if you
don't, you know, he was looking

1778
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:13,000
at people who were in, in high
leadership, stake presidents,

1779
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:16,200
those sorts of things.
Bishops, if you don't take

1780
01:55:16,200 --> 01:55:18,040
another wife, we're going to get
rid of you.

1781
01:55:18,360 --> 01:55:22,120
I find that it's fascinating how
those tables turned that quick.

1782
01:55:23,120 --> 01:55:26,160
Yeah, me too.
Me too.

1783
01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:31,760
But we're going to get into, in
the next episode, some more of

1784
01:55:31,760 --> 01:55:35,080
the catalysts.
Basically what I think are the

1785
01:55:35,080 --> 01:55:39,520
seeds of the of the
fundamentalist movement that are

1786
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:42,600
born in this area, I'd really
think that that's we're gonna

1787
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:47,400
start to cover the marriage is
done by Judson Tolman in the

1788
01:55:47,400 --> 01:55:49,560
next episode.
OK.

1789
01:55:50,000 --> 01:55:53,080
Awesome.
Judson Judson Tolman was

1790
01:55:53,080 --> 01:55:57,720
patriarch of Davis County and
which is where John Wooley ends

1791
01:55:57,720 --> 01:56:01,800
up being patriarch as well.
Yeah.

1792
01:56:03,400 --> 01:56:07,920
Dude man, this has been so
fascinating to to like.

1793
01:56:09,520 --> 01:56:14,680
I really don't think even those
who know about post manifesto

1794
01:56:14,680 --> 01:56:22,960
polygamy, the the level of
carefulness and dogged

1795
01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:27,240
determination to keep this thing
going is insane.

1796
01:56:27,880 --> 01:56:33,480
And to see, to see these men
fight for it in such a way and

1797
01:56:33,480 --> 01:56:36,200
to have the story I think
finally told in its

1798
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:44,520
completeness, right without
spin, without just honest

1799
01:56:44,520 --> 01:56:47,440
history, is something that I
don't think we as a community

1800
01:56:47,440 --> 01:56:49,360
have had before.
And and dude, you're doing a

1801
01:56:49,360 --> 01:56:51,960
great job and I can't wait for
our next conversation.

1802
01:56:52,760 --> 01:56:54,320
Sweet.
Hey, I appreciate the

1803
01:56:54,320 --> 01:56:55,720
opportunity to get this out
there.

1804
01:56:55,760 --> 01:56:59,560
That's I I don't know if I've
told you this or the listeners

1805
01:56:59,560 --> 01:57:02,800
this before, but I've wanted to
do something on this time period

1806
01:57:02,920 --> 01:57:05,320
ever since I pretty much came
into fundamentalism.

1807
01:57:06,080 --> 01:57:13,600
And I'm just grateful to the
Lord that he's allowed me to to

1808
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:16,960
compile it, because I had no
idea where to start and things

1809
01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:22,280
just fell into place when I I
had a friend ask me one question

1810
01:57:23,360 --> 01:57:25,600
and I said I'll try to put
something together on you.

1811
01:57:25,600 --> 01:57:28,880
And it just spiraled into this
the whole deal after I was

1812
01:57:28,880 --> 01:57:31,520
trying to answer that question
and so.

1813
01:57:31,960 --> 01:57:37,680
Well, and and I think this
should men like Cowie and and

1814
01:57:37,680 --> 01:57:44,840
Taylor and Joseph F Smith going
back, we owe them such a debt of

1815
01:57:44,840 --> 01:57:48,440
gratitude.
Such a debt of gratitude.

1816
01:57:49,000 --> 01:57:57,240
And it's been an an unfortunate
outcome that within a lot of

1817
01:57:57,240 --> 01:58:00,720
Mormonism, these men's names
have just been lost.

1818
01:58:02,320 --> 01:58:07,880
And I hope that this changes it.
I I hope that this maybe puts

1819
01:58:07,880 --> 01:58:09,560
them back into their proper
light.

1820
01:58:10,920 --> 01:58:14,000
Well, on that note, I want to
read something.

1821
01:58:15,000 --> 01:58:18,440
I thought it was.
I thought it was funny and I

1822
01:58:18,440 --> 01:58:19,480
couldn't.
Let us sit.

1823
01:58:21,280 --> 01:58:24,040
And it has a reference to the
Matthias Cowley, and so it's

1824
01:58:24,040 --> 01:58:26,800
might as well just bring it up
now based on what you just said.

1825
01:58:28,440 --> 01:58:32,680
I was on Facebook and let's see
if I can find them.

1826
01:58:36,000 --> 01:58:40,560
Someone posted a quotation from
a letter that Matthias Callie

1827
01:58:40,560 --> 01:58:45,320
wrote to Byron Harvey, Allred
junior that's ruled Allred's dad

1828
01:58:45,680 --> 01:58:49,720
in 1925.
And I'm going to see if I can

1829
01:58:49,720 --> 01:58:55,760
find so December 8th, 1925,
Matthias Cowley writes to to

1830
01:58:55,760 --> 01:59:02,840
Byron Harvey Allred.
And sorry to spoil some things,

1831
01:59:02,840 --> 01:59:09,240
but this is 11 years after he
practically sued for his life to

1832
01:59:09,240 --> 01:59:12,160
retain his church membership.
And he says to Byron Allred,

1833
01:59:12,360 --> 01:59:14,960
who, by the way, Byron Harvey
Allred was mission companions to

1834
01:59:14,960 --> 01:59:19,240
Lauren Wooley and obviously
heavily into fundamentalism.

1835
01:59:19,240 --> 01:59:22,360
Later he writes to him saying,
if the authorities of the Church

1836
01:59:22,360 --> 01:59:25,680
make mistakes, it is not our
prerogative to set them right.

1837
01:59:26,040 --> 01:59:28,960
And when we consider how well
the Church General authorities

1838
01:59:29,000 --> 01:59:32,320
have lived good, clean, chaste
lives, been faithful to the

1839
01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:35,280
duties of their ministry at home
and abroad, we must admit that

1840
01:59:35,280 --> 01:59:38,960
if any man or set of men are
worthy to know God's will, it is

1841
01:59:38,960 --> 01:59:41,400
they to whom we vote to uphold
and sustain.

1842
01:59:41,800 --> 01:59:44,800
And that with all their failings
they are the best men in the

1843
01:59:44,800 --> 01:59:48,000
earth and in the world.
And so, dear brother, let us not

1844
01:59:48,000 --> 01:59:50,920
be doubtful of them, but true
and faithful to them.

1845
01:59:50,920 --> 01:59:53,360
And I promise you this, in the
name of the Lord, if you stand

1846
01:59:53,360 --> 01:59:56,960
by and uphold the authorities of
this Church, God himself will

1847
01:59:56,960 --> 02:00:01,240
stand by you and sustain you in
this net in this life and exalt

1848
02:00:01,240 --> 02:00:06,520
you in the life to come.
So that got cited by someone in

1849
02:00:06,520 --> 02:00:11,960
the Church showing that even
Cowley changed his mind near the

1850
02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:16,640
end of his life, You know, or in
an effort basically to support

1851
02:00:17,000 --> 02:00:20,480
the attitude.
That we're here to protest a

1852
02:00:20,480 --> 02:00:23,320
little bit, which is follow your
leaders blindly, follow

1853
02:00:23,320 --> 02:00:25,840
arbitrary counsel, Just do what
you're said.

1854
02:00:25,840 --> 02:00:28,440
The Lord will bless you.
But that's not what brother

1855
02:00:28,440 --> 02:00:33,760
Cowley's saying at all.
But my counter in the in public

1856
02:00:33,760 --> 02:00:38,280
on the Internet was posting
another quote of Matthias Cowley

1857
02:00:38,640 --> 02:00:46,240
that he gave in 19 O1 at the
Logan Temple, saying none of the

1858
02:00:46,240 --> 02:00:50,120
revelations of the prophets,
either past or present, have

1859
02:00:50,120 --> 02:00:52,760
been repealed.
If you have a teacher in your

1860
02:00:52,760 --> 02:00:56,960
Sunday schools who would
encourage you to disregard or

1861
02:00:56,960 --> 02:01:00,360
disrespect a single doctrine of
the church, plural marriage and

1862
02:01:00,360 --> 02:01:02,840
all, turn them out.
They have no right in the

1863
02:01:02,840 --> 02:01:03,440
priesthood.
Oh, oh.

1864
02:01:08,360 --> 02:01:12,040
Weighing it down.
So that's how he felt, really.

1865
02:01:12,320 --> 02:01:13,760
And that's what got him into
trouble.

1866
02:01:14,240 --> 02:01:17,880
But that was he would have
continued down that road and I

1867
02:01:17,880 --> 02:01:25,120
believe he he we're contrary to
what people citing that letter

1868
02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:27,840
would want it to make it what
they would like it to make it

1869
02:01:27,840 --> 02:01:31,480
seem like.
We see Matthias Cowley traveling

1870
02:01:31,480 --> 02:01:37,240
with pro fundamentalist people
as late as 1922 in his life.

1871
02:01:37,640 --> 02:01:42,520
OK, OK, so he never lost that
zeal.

1872
02:01:43,920 --> 02:01:49,880
Not fully, Not completely, He
After 1922, he didn't want to be

1873
02:01:49,880 --> 02:01:52,480
involved with organizing when
Lauren Wooley started to want to

1874
02:01:52,480 --> 02:01:56,000
organize.
But I don't think he ever lost a

1875
02:01:56,000 --> 02:01:58,880
connection to that community
that was the underground

1876
02:01:58,880 --> 02:02:03,560
community or his own duties in
the priesthood.

1877
02:02:03,560 --> 02:02:06,280
Because he was told that we're
skipping away at heading up

1878
02:02:06,280 --> 02:02:11,160
about what he got into it.
He was told not to exercise his

1879
02:02:11,160 --> 02:02:13,320
priesthood for years when he
was.

1880
02:02:13,320 --> 02:02:15,840
He retained his membership in
1911, when he was

1881
02:02:15,840 --> 02:02:18,960
disfellowships, but he was not
allowed to exercise his

1882
02:02:18,960 --> 02:02:21,800
priesthood.
But we see from Nathaniel

1883
02:02:21,800 --> 02:02:25,280
Baldwin's journals in the 1920s
that he was going around giving

1884
02:02:25,280 --> 02:02:27,520
blessings.
It's good for him.

1885
02:02:28,480 --> 02:02:29,920
Yep.
Good for him.

1886
02:02:30,760 --> 02:02:33,640
Good for him.
Because despite what some would

1887
02:02:33,680 --> 02:02:37,840
have you say, priesthood does
exist outside the the Church.

1888
02:02:38,400 --> 02:02:42,200
Yep, and contrary to or
according to family tradition is

1889
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:46,320
in addition to what is recorded
in those journals about him

1890
02:02:46,320 --> 02:02:51,360
exercising as priesthood.
In that instance, he also had a

1891
02:02:51,360 --> 02:02:54,840
ceremony with John W Taylor.
According to Taylor family

1892
02:02:54,840 --> 02:03:00,200
tradition at in Utah Lake, where
him and a president of a state

1893
02:03:00,200 --> 02:03:04,640
re baptized John W Taylor back
into the church after his

1894
02:03:04,640 --> 02:03:07,840
excommunication, which was
likely, if I were to venture a

1895
02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:10,680
guess, was probably his brother
Frank White Taylor being the

1896
02:03:10,680 --> 02:03:12,520
stake president, right?
But I don't.

1897
02:03:12,560 --> 02:03:17,640
I don't know that entirely.
Fascinating stuff.

1898
02:03:18,080 --> 02:03:20,840
And we'll cover that more, I'm
guessing, in an episode or so.

1899
02:03:21,520 --> 02:03:22,440
Sure, yeah.
Absolutely.

1900
02:03:22,880 --> 02:03:25,280
Awesome.
All right, dude.

1901
02:03:25,520 --> 02:03:28,480
Thanks a lot.
No problem at all.

1902
02:03:28,880 --> 02:03:30,320
All right.
Bye, everybody.

1903
02:04:01,690 --> 02:04:04,410
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade Podcast.