Episode #116: The Life & Times Of John W. Taylor Part 3-The Seeds Of Modern Mormon Fundamentalism W/Micheal Ness

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So in the last two episodes of
this series on the Life and

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Times of John W Taylor, you have
really gotten a master class in

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Mormon history around the times
just preceding in post

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manifesto.
We continue that series today.

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Now, last time we left off with
pretty much the whole upper

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leadership of the LDS Church
being involved in one form or

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another in post manifesto plural
marriage.

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Today, Michael Ness and I pick
back up in that history.

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In this episode, we cover how
small cracks begin to form in

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that upper leadership.
Next we dive into a practice

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that John W Taylor started that
would plant the seeds of modern

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Mormon fundamentalism.
We finish up this part with a

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conversation that's super
illuminating about some history

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that shows how Heber J.
Grant went from ardent supporter

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of post manifesto plural
marriage to its most active

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persecutor.
That and more on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse.

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To become and raise men and
women of virtue and character is

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a Herculean task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com, go to the
bottom of the page, search out

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the blog post, and order your
copy.

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Today, I can bear personal
testimony from personal

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experience that this is an
invaluable tool to help you

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raise men and women of virtue
and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Well, Michael, we're back at it
again, man.

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Back-to-back podcast Champs.
No, that's right.

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That's right.
Now for everybody out there

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listening, if you haven't
listened to parts one and two of

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this, you need to go back
because these are really

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building on each other and
you're as as I've been thinking

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about our conversations here and
and Michael correct me if I'm

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wrong here.
I'm not sure there's been quite

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yeah a deep as deep a dive is
what we're doing not just into

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John Taylor but the time period
that this happens in.

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I think we all have kind of a
cursory understanding of what's

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happening but we don't
necessarily understand the the

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nuance behind it.
Right.

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The personalities involved and
and not just that but really

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what what?
And this came out really in the

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last episode.
It's not like the LDS Church

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just parted ways with plural
marriage as soon as that

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manifesto was issued, right?
They're taking invasive actions.

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They're sending people down to
Mexico, up to Canada to start

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having these performed.
They're doing everything they

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can to to to ride that razor's
edge of keeping enough distance

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between the LDS Church.
And really, I think, I think you

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coined the phrase with when we
did the muster interview with

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those proto fundamentalists,
right.

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And and I, I think, you know
towards the end of last episode

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we started to see that razor's
edge begin to fall out from

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under everybody.
Things really begin to change

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now as we go forward, right?
Yeah, they're about to change

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Currently at the time that we're
at the deck is pretty well

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staffed in the leadership.
But remember in the even in the

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1880s we saw people in the
average church membership

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basically suing John Taylor,
president of the church at the

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time, you know, suing him for
peace, you know, give us a some

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sort of concession or statement
so we don't have to deal with

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the government so we can be free
and just enjoy normal life.

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And so the question does become
how converted are the general

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people in the church?
And that will obviously affect

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leadership eventually, because
where do you draw your

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leadership from?
Right from that pool of people.

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Yeah, absolutely.
And so you have the older people

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who are the stalwarts and the
diehards, you know, they begin

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to, they begin to die, you know,
die off and and you got to

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replace them, in fact.
So at this point where we left

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off in 1900, we have a First
Presidency of Lorenzo Snow,

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Joseph F Smith, and George
Cucanan.

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All of them are to a 1° or
another in favor of polygamy and

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11 members in the form of the
12.

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The form is not full for every
but out of those eleven they are

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either involved or will be
involved, or have been involved

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in some way of in either
encouraging, arranging, or

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performing, or taking wives
themselves in performing

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ceremonies, or taking wives for
themselves.

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The next Apostle that is added
to the Quorum of the 12 at this

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point is Senator Reid Smoot.
Oh, Mr. Smoot.

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Yeah.
And then on the heels of that

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president, snow dies and George
Q, our George Buchanan dies

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first to the lens of snow dies.
But we're getting ahead of

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ourselves.
But that's that's essentially

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what starts to happen.
What year did Utah gain

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statehood Again, 1890. 6.
And what year is the Reed Smoot

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hearings?
19 O 4 to 19 O 7 pretty much.

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OK, so between 1896 and 19 O 4,
does Utah have any sitting

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senators?
Do they have any sitting

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congressmen?
I mean what's happening there

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'cause you would have thought
that that once they were

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admitted in 1896 that that this
would have come around a lot

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quicker, right?
I mean this is a good four year

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gap.
I'm was was were there.

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Difference was, it was there was
no member of the Quorum of the

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12 going into politics.
OK, I see.

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At that point, and so the knee
jerk reaction in the United

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States was they're just going to
stack the government, the state

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government with their own church
leaders and it's going to be no

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separation of church and state.
Which I mean, I I wouldn't say

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there wouldn't be any
separation, but it would have

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been a lot closer.
I mean, it's hard to deny,

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right?
Because.

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It is.
Brigham Young wanted a Theo

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democracy, right?
And and theoretically, that's

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what that's what Zion is is a is
a Theo democracy, right?

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And when you had a state that
90% of the population at that

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point, if not well over 90% of
the population, is of a certain

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religious denomination, the odds
are in your representative

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bodies, you're going to have
delegates from that religious

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denomination.
Yep, no matter what way you

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slice it.
Yep, Yep.

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So when?
Well, we're probably not there

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yet.
I'll ask that question when we

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get to the Read Smoot hearings.
Sure.

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Yeah, we'll probably touch on
that a bit today.

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So we left off in the beginning
of the year 1900.

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It is now a new century.
We had just, however, back at

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the end of 1899, we had seen
mission president Louis Keelf

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senior married to a plural wife
by Matthias Cowley and John W

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Taylor, ordained A patriarch,
John Anthony Wolf, in Canada.

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He will later be involved with
with plural marriages in Canada

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and we saw in December of 1889
or 1899 Owen Woodruff, the

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youngest apostle in the form of
the 12, performed a plural

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ceiling in Mexico, which is his
first interaction I believe,

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with any post manifesto plural
marriages.

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And he's probably the only
monogamist in the Quorum of the

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12 at this point.
And up till this year he he has

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only been able to have one
child, and so he's pretty

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anxious to fulfill certain
blessings and promises that were

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made to him in previous years.
Franklin D Richards and Apostle

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Mariner, Merrill and Brigham
Young Junior have all talked to

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him, telling him that these
things are going to come back.

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Right.
Anyway, so and another important

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name to remember later in
December of 1899, a counselor

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and award Bishop Rick named
Rodney C Badger marries his

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third wife and they are sealed
by Matthias Cowley.

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And now getting into 1900, there
was a meeting held on January

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9th during one of the Quorum of
the 12th Quarterly Meetings

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where Mariner Merrill, while
Speaking of the principle of

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plural marriage, said it had
come to stay in one form or

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another.
Now this I don't know the full

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context for why he said that.
I believe I tried to look for

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that in the minutes I do have
access to, but I don't recall

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finding anything.
In any case, what I do have from

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as a interesting reaction from
apostle John Henry Smith is his

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reaction to Merrill was I think
we should be secretive and not

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give ourselves away.
So Merrill saying it's come and

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it's staying one form or
another.

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John Henry Smith saying we got
to be careful, we got to be

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secretive.
Yeah.

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Two days later there was another
meeting of the Quorum of the 12,

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and I'm going to read the full
account of Owen Woodruff's

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journal account of that meeting.
OK.

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He writes, we protect of the
bread and the wine, emblems of

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our master's body and blood
after the Lord's Supper,

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President Lorenzo Snow said.
So far as I am concerned, no

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plural marriages can be entered
into anywhere in Mexico or

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elsewhere.
John Henry Smith made a speech,

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an absolute discouragement of
the practice anywhere.

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President George Q Cannon moved
that we accept President Snow's

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words as the word of the Lord.
It was seconded and again,

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without any chance to express
our feelings and judgment, we

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were forced to sustain a motion
that some of us were opposed to

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or be out of harmony with our
brethren.

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I felt forced to sustain this
motion, and that is why I did

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it, knowing if it were not
right, the responsibility would

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not rest on me.
I absolutely know that a number

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of the Brethren, among them John
W Taylor and George Teasdale and

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Matthias S Cowley, are
entertaining feelings and

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harmony with my own.
I owe my existence to the

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principle of polygamy, and I
have some intense feelings

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regarding the sustaining of that
principle.

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I am indebted to the principle
for my life and anytime my

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father wants my life to defend
that principle and those who

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practice it in righteousness.
God being my helper, it is at

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his command.
President Brigham Young Junior

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came to my desk at the close and
said, Brother Woodruff, I want

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to tell you that the time is not
far distant when the question of

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polygamy will be changed and
practiced again.

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I said I will hold you to
responsible for that mark.

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Brother Young, he answered you
May and Apostle Mariner Merrill

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prophesied that the time will
never come in the church when

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polygamist children will not be
born.

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I prayed to God to give me light
on this matter as I feel almost

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sick about it.
I want to and intend to be loyal

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to my chief.
That's in capital letters, so I

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think he means savior when he
says chief.

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What do you think about what's
going on there?

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OK.
A lot of the men you just

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mentioned, I absolutely adore
for what they did.

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Sure.
This, however, are one of those

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times where I think we have to
use what happened as a

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cautionary tale because you have
Lorenzo Snow that that that puts

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us forward, right.
And I think what we're seeing

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here, and this is just my
opinion, is some capitulation on

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the part of of Lorenzo Snow
who's who's president of the

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church at this time.
There are several men.

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Owen, you know Owen.
Owen Woodruff.

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Abraham Brigham.
OK Oh, we'll call him Wilford's

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boy.
Owen.

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Owen Woodruff has some problem.
You know has some issues with

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this.
He's not digging this.

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We know that.
Brigham Young Junior's not

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digging this.
Merrill and Mariner Merrill as

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well as John W Taylor.
Sometimes sustaining leadership,

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in my opinion, means you have to
hold their arms up, just like

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what you saw with Moses right
when his arms were up, they were

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winning the battle.
It is absolutely a true

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principle that a leader can
absolutely grow tired, and

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00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,840
sometimes that means having to
ask really uncomfortable

227
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:48,200
questions of that leader and the
fact that they all just kind of

228
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,760
went well.
It's what he said.

229
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,720
I guess we should do it, or at
least not raise a fuss about it.

230
00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,520
Is again another mile marker
along the way to how we got to

231
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,440
where we are now as a people.
It is.

232
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:10,480
And and I've never had a problem
with it because I wasn't like I

233
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,120
I understand where it comes from
and I'm not trying to cast

234
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:15,520
stones.
That's not what I'm saying.

235
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,760
I wasn't raised in the tradition
of Mormonism.

236
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,880
I didn't come into Mormonism
till I was a a young man.

237
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,720
So I never dug the whole well,
I'll follow that guy even if

238
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,320
he's wrong thing right.
Never made sense to me.

239
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,800
Sometimes you got to dig your
heels and even with people that

240
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,840
you like, love and respect for
the sake of principle and truth.

241
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:49,360
And I think what we're seeing
here is really the the, the

242
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,080
those seeds beginning to
germinate and sprout of what

243
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:59,280
happens when you become about a
man versus principle and truth.

244
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:04,880
And so this this to me is a sad
part right here this, this

245
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,680
capitulation that that really
kind of bugs me.

246
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,520
It's interesting to me looking
at this because I think it's

247
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,600
like I'm 90% certain it's a
smokescreen.

248
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:21,200
And if it's not, what I think is
happening is Lorenzo Snow

249
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:26,760
himself is getting to an age
where it's just you're hard to

250
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,240
deal with and reason with.
And you're like, it's like when

251
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,240
the priesthood split in the
council, happened in the 1950s,

252
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,120
but people on both sides saying
that Joseph Muster had a dual

253
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,800
personality.
I could almost see something

254
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:46,240
like that, like Lorenzo Snows
getting to the age where, I

255
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,040
mean, he's telling Matthias
Cowley literally less than two

256
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,160
years earlier, I'm not going to
interfere with George Buchanan's

257
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,360
work.
And he knows full on what George

258
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,280
Buchanan and Joseph F Smith are
doing.

259
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,960
But then he's saying, on the
other hand, I'm telling you, you

260
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:05,920
don't have authority to do this.
And so is it mixed signals of of

261
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,040
someone who's losing their, you
know, their cognitive ability to

262
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:15,960
a degree, or is it completely a
smokescreen because there's a

263
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,359
possibility the government's
going to come in and seize your

264
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,720
meeting records and see what
you're discussing in your in

265
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,760
your meetings?
And because, you know, like

266
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,960
we've discussed and like we've
seen in the history so far,

267
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,680
every single one of those
apostles has been in favor of

268
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,600
perpetuating plural marriage.
If if it's a smokescreen,

269
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:39,160
though, why write all that stuff
in your journal about the other

270
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,240
apostles talking, right?
Because that could get snatched

271
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,600
up in a raid just as easy as any
minutes.

272
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:45,760
Book.
That's true.

273
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,640
And I suppose my guess is that
young, young Owen Woodruff,

274
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:56,880
there would was not as much in
the know on some things, but was

275
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,320
also more in the know than maybe
Lorenzo Snow knew he was at that

276
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,680
point.
And so he was not brought in by

277
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,520
President Snow.
But he's been brought in

278
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,760
obviously by John W Taylor and
Matthias Cowley and George

279
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,720
Teasdale, right.
You know, but the the authority

280
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,200
and the secrecy has become so
compartmentalized that it's like

281
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,120
you don't always know what your
other constituents are doing at

282
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,200
this point.
Yeah, yeah.

283
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,400
I hope it was a smokescreen.
I really do.

284
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:30,880
But even if, even if it is a
smokescreen, you know that those

285
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,720
minutes are going to get out,
right?

286
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,920
And if it is a smokescreen, all
you've done is create further

287
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,560
confusion.
Yeah, and that's what and that's

288
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,840
what happens now.
We're over 100 years removed,

289
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:49,320
and LDS Church apologists are
going to take that quote without

290
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,120
any of the context.
They're not going to read you

291
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:54,240
Owen Woodruff's journal account
of that meeting of that day.

292
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,920
And they're going to read the
official minutes and say

293
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,240
President Lorenzo Sino said in
January 11th, 1900 that no man

294
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,520
has the authority to perform
plural marriages here in Canada

295
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,160
or Mexico or elsewhere.
And they're going to say that

296
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,680
that's, that was the word of the
Lord through the prophet.

297
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,360
But we're going to see more
going on than just that.

298
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:19,000
In fact, I mean literally just
previous to this, the other at

299
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:24,960
the end of 1899, there was a
woman who was on the underground

300
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,080
is a plural wife.
And she was discovered as having

301
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,480
entered into a plural marriage
and charges were brought against

302
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,080
her.
And Lorenzo Snow told the local

303
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:41,160
authorities to drop it, you
know, and he and then he told

304
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,320
George Reynolds, First
Presidency Secretary, that I

305
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,400
admire the grit of any woman
who's willing to enter into that

306
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:50,960
principle.
OK.

307
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,400
You know, you know what I mean.
Right.

308
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,320
So, OK, So that definitely would
lend itself to being a

309
00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,400
smokescreen.
OK, I could, I could see that,

310
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,160
which makes me feel a little bit
better.

311
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,080
Sure.
But still, otherwise you're

312
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,480
right though.
You're right about everything

313
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,640
you said.
If it was capitulation, you're

314
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,880
absolutely right.
And this is the thing that wolf,

315
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,600
that young Owen Woodruff does
not know fully yet that that was

316
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,640
a smoke.
Obviously, from his perspective,

317
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,840
he did not know that that was a
smokescreen.

318
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,680
Right.
Right.

319
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:28,200
And and Boyd, be fascinating to
find out if there was like a

320
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,520
second, a second book of those
minutes.

321
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,240
Right.
Like this is for public

322
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,040
consumption, This is for us
boys, right?

323
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,080
This is for this is, this is the
real deal.

324
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:48,880
So you know it.
Because even again, if there's

325
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:55,280
one overarching theme that that
keeps coming back to play here,

326
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,240
it's at the the the road to hell
is paved with good intentions.

327
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,360
Oh, certainly.
And and it certainly seems to be

328
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:08,520
this case right from the get go
Wilford after after this

329
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,920
conversation, I have no doubt
Wilford's like, OK, we're going

330
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,640
to, we're going to release this
bad boy.

331
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,360
But this is just temporary.
This is just to get the

332
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,920
government off our off our backs
and as soon as everything

333
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,280
mellows out, we're going to be
good.

334
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,800
And then that kind of
transitions into, well, let's

335
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,400
just do it in Mexico and Canada,
we're fine there.

336
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,640
And now it's like that's not
enough.

337
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,760
We now have to deny it there as
well.

338
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:43,240
And so it's this incremental
movement right, to complete

339
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,080
capitulation that we keep seeing
over and over and over again.

340
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,960
And no one has said let's put
the brakes on this, right?

341
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,880
No one's pushed back and said
maybe we just need to dig our

342
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,280
heels in on this and the only.
Person that has is John W

343
00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,600
Taylor.
Right, right.

344
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,240
That's it in my in.
Three different meetings, right?

345
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,640
Bringing up his father's
revelation and bringing up

346
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,800
Wilford Woodruff's 1889
revelation.

347
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,800
Yeah, Yep.
Yep.

348
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,160
Yeah, absolutely.
I.

349
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,560
And other than that, though, we
can see that that this thing's

350
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,880
starting to tip right?
Like momentum is beginning to

351
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,200
take over and it'll.
Shift it.

352
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:28,440
Well, there's there's a
obviously all hope is not lost

353
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,520
at this point.
The next interesting thing that

354
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,400
we see happen is the
organization of Granite Stake

355
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,480
organized in the Salt Lake
Valley by Apostle John W Taylor

356
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,800
under the instruction of
President Joseph F Smith, with

357
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,120
Frank Y Taylor as its president,
and John M Cannon, who was a

358
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,680
nephew of President George Q
Cannon, as his second counselor.

359
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,560
Now, do you remember any of
those names?

360
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,360
Yes, I do.
Yes I do.

361
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,560
And I'm guessing they're setting
up the stake to be a safe haven

362
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,080
for polygamists.
Yep, Yep, the the Forestdale

363
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,520
award was in that stake was in
the days of Joseph Monster later

364
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,400
was called Polygamy.
Polygamyville.

365
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:14,080
You know and you know during the
and during Nathaniel Baldwin's

366
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,040
radio plant days, you know, he
would build a lot of houses in

367
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,880
that ward for people who came to
work for him who were.

368
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,240
Polygamists.
OK, so, so yeah, And and this is

369
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,080
interesting, right?
Because this to me is kind of

370
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,280
like the rebels pushing back a
little bit, right?

371
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:39,960
Like, OK, we we we obviously
can't do this.

372
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,480
Let's start setting up safe
havens for for individuals who

373
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,560
still want to practice the
principle.

374
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,680
Right.
And where members of the well, I

375
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,760
don't even know if they're
anticipating.

376
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,960
At least with the Granite Stake
organization, I don't know if

377
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,240
they're anticipating it being a
protection against the quorum of

378
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,400
the 12 persecuting Polygamist
because at this point the deck

379
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,440
is stacked like we've said.
But we see in the days of Joseph

380
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,400
Musser from the last podcast
that when it came down to that

381
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,600
day, it was because of Frank
White Taylor and John M Cannon

382
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,360
in that stake organization that
he was able to kind of say, hey,

383
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,840
I'm in harmony with my leaders
and you don't have any authority

384
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,120
to come and censor me.
Go talk to the president of the

385
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:27,880
church and they can send you in
to deal with my leaders and then

386
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,400
me if you want to.
But I'm in harmony with my

387
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,800
leaders, and I will endeavor to
remain so, is what he told him.

388
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,440
Where were the geographical
boundaries of the granite stake

389
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,520
exactly?
Do you have any indication where

390
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,960
that is?
Like Sugarhouse in Salt Lake, I

391
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,280
believe around that area.
Well, that's kind of sad.

392
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:53,160
I mean, there's more rainbow
flags hanging in that area now

393
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:58,200
than wow, Wow, that took a turn
for the ugly really quick.

394
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,400
Exactly.
It generally does, but cities

395
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,560
are cities of that size are not
good.

396
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,440
And it was Salt Lake was not
that big back then.

397
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,520
No, no.
All right.

398
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,160
So they they they start, they
have this meeting and then what

399
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,160
happens after that?
After the Woodruff?

400
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,240
After Owen Woodruff's account of
that meeting?

401
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,800
Yep.
Well, let's get into some more

402
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,160
of that history.
So yeah, we see the form that

403
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:27,320
same month.
Granite Stake.

404
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:34,480
It's organized.
We know at this point that at

405
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,320
least, yeah, I'm pretty sure at
this point, Frank White Taylor

406
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,640
at least knows about the 1886
revelation.

407
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,440
I believe he has at least two
wives at this point.

408
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,680
I might be wrong about that.
He's about to get more, don't

409
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,360
worry.
And same with John M Cannon.

410
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:57,360
Pretty soon after that, sometime
during this year, John W Taylor

411
00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:00,440
and other authorities on their
trips to Mexico.

412
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,320
Yeah, down towards Mexico and
all that.

413
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:08,480
They passed through Mesa, AZ and
they urged Benjamin F Lebaron,

414
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,280
you know, ancestor of the, you
know, Church of the first born

415
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,480
Lebarons, to move down to Mexico
to live plural marriage.

416
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,920
But according to traditions told
in that family, you know

417
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,880
Benjamin F Lebaron is Dare.
Lebaron's father and his parents

418
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:33,520
began courting a woman in Mesa,
and they all agreed to relocate

419
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,920
to Mexico to go through with it.
According to the family, that's

420
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:43,400
around the time that Benjamin F
Johnson started teaching Dare.

421
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,920
Lebaron was when John W Taylor
was showing up around, which I

422
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,520
That's interesting.
But in any case, May 17th, 1900,

423
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,920
apostle George Teasdale marries
his sixth wife, probably in

424
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,520
Mexico.
He's married a few of them at

425
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,440
this point.
Post manifesto, by the way, I

426
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,480
don't recall exactly how many at
this point.

427
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,000
June 1900.
Oh, this one's cool.

428
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,600
This is a fun John W Taylor
story.

429
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:21,960
So being one of the resident
apostles in Canada, he's he's

430
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,840
not only in church leadership
and I think it's a stake at this

431
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,000
point.
And so, I mean he's there, but

432
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,960
it's also not, you know, he's
not like acting as stake

433
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,240
president or anything, but he is
A lot of his business and income

434
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,440
at this point is coming off of
land investment and other

435
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,480
projects in fact.
And he's also tied into church

436
00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:46,640
projects leading those.
So he's got his own personal

437
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,240
land improvement projects for
his own personal finances and

438
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,160
he's taking control of church
business stuff as well.

439
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,760
Right.
And then you have a bunch of

440
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,280
church members working on a
church project that was a 9090

441
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,280
mile canal system that they were
digging.

442
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,640
Holy Cow contract.
Yeah.

443
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:14,920
And it's June and they're
getting torrential rain for like

444
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:21,560
2 weeks straight and it's just
mud and slosh and they're under

445
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,120
this contract to do this.
But it's now getting really late

446
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:30,600
in like your spring to or you
know to be planting whatever you

447
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,200
need to plant and or for
harvest, right.

448
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,160
And they're the members of the
church are about up in arms

449
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,360
because you have this church
project that the that John W

450
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,480
Taylor's kind of pushing them
for to get done and like we

451
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,440
can't we're not we're going to
starve during winter you know if

452
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,480
we, if you know in Canada, if we
don't get this done.

453
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:57,800
And when they were just about up
in arms he told them and

454
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,840
prophesied that the frosts will
hold off as if they work

455
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,760
diligently to to finish that
canal.

456
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,360
I don't know when they finished
it, but it was late.

457
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:19,840
And just as John W Taylor
prophesied, if they were

458
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,240
faithful and if they finished
that project, they were

459
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,600
harvesting their crop as late as
January of the New Year because

460
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,800
the frost hadn't come yet.
Really.

461
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,200
In Canada.
In Canada and Charles Charles

462
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,440
Oreckard writes in his journal,
I acknowledge the hand of God in

463
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,040
preserving our crops so far,
which is in accord to the

464
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,240
promise of Apostle John W
Taylor.

465
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:50,440
Dude, Can you imagine being so
confident in knowing, oh, this

466
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,120
is a revelation, just not my
hopefulness to be like, don't

467
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,120
sweat it, just keep building the
canal, You're not going to

468
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,240
starve.
And they're like, well, how do

469
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,400
you know that?
Well, because the frost won't

470
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,280
come right?
And yeah, you think.

471
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,240
You're a madman.
If I was a member of the church,

472
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,800
right?
Or some guy's like, yeah, of

473
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,320
course you would say that.
You're you're next on the line

474
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:13,800
if we don't build this canal,
right?

475
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,000
You know, that's what they're
thinking.

476
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,000
Right, right.
The the pardoning expression.

477
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,680
Just the balls.
That guy's got to be like.

478
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,280
No, no, no.
It's all good.

479
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,080
Don't worry.
Those frosts will be held off.

480
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,040
We're fine.
Just keep digging that canal.

481
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:34,720
We'll get there and then and
then to to have it be right, I

482
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,200
mean.
Well, it's crazy.

483
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,160
It it is crazy.
It is but awesome.

484
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,360
Yeah.
Oh man.

485
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,320
All right, Next on the list.
Do you remember Phoebe Woolley?

486
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,080
Yes, you do.
OK, yeah.

487
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:58,680
So she is John W Taylor's
sister-in-law, 'cause she's the

488
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,800
wife.
She's the sister of his third

489
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,440
wife.
In June 27th, 1900, she gets

490
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,600
married to David West.
Jeff's.

491
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:11,040
Jeff's.
Yeah.

492
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,360
Do you know who that is?
I'm guessing it's a relation of

493
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,720
Warren somewhere.
It's his grandfather.

494
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,120
OK, yeah, Warren's grandfather.
It's Warren's grandfather and

495
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,560
ruling Jeff's father, yeah.
See, It's so nuts, right?

496
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,960
Because we look at like this
time period like it was ancient

497
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,880
history, right?
But when you start doing the

498
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,520
math, it's really not.
I I went, I listened to one of

499
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,400
Joe Rogan's comedy specials once
and he was talking about the

500
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,080
Constitution.
He's like, it's not really that

501
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,240
long ago.
When you think about it, if

502
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,240
people are living to like 80,
that's like 2 1/2 people ago and

503
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,160
that's and that's that's really
what we're seeing here, right

504
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,000
when we start making these
connections like this is just a

505
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,680
couple generations back, it's
like, holy crap, that's not that

506
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,720
long ago, right?
It's nuts.

507
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,280
No, it is absolutely nuts.
So David West, Jeff served in

508
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,960
the same mission at the same
time with Joseph Muster and they

509
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,080
were friends in the 1890s.
So he's he's fresh off his

510
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,760
mission for the church.
He gets married to Phoebe

511
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,480
Woolley, daughter of Samuel
Woolley, niece of John W

512
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:31,000
Woolley.
That makes him brother-in-law of

513
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:37,480
John W Taylor, and that affords
him special privileges.

514
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:44,320
Oh yeah, which will eventually
be the catalyst for him, you

515
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,080
know, joining the priesthood
work.

516
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,640
You know, after the days of
Lauren Woolley.

517
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,200
After the group comes to the
forefront, he ends up getting a,

518
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,480
you know, Joseph Muster, ends up
giving him an edition of Truth

519
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,440
Magazine later on.
And bring brings him in.

520
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:05,880
And in 1943 or so, if I'm
remembering my dates correctly,

521
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,400
Joseph Muster ordains him one of
the group's first patriarchs.

522
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,600
Really.
David West Jeff's Yeah, to give

523
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,120
patriarchal blessings.
Him and Fred Morrison.

524
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,080
She was one of Sean Anderson's
uncles of some distant relation,

525
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,000
by the way.
Shout out and yeah.

526
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:33,800
And also I believe he was found
to have the gift of healing and

527
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,720
was called upon to exercise a
lot of healing blessings in

528
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,320
those days.
You know, and I think this is a

529
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,440
good spot too, to talk about
This to me, is one of those

530
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,000
stories where you can see things
that start off really good with

531
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:55,200
David Jeffs and how quickly it
can go off the rails, how

532
00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,080
quickly it can go dark if if
you're not careful.

533
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,000
Yeah, it went very dark.
And yeah, to to acknowledge what

534
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,120
happens with ruling Jeffs and
Warren Jeffs.

535
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,480
Yeah, in no way, shape or form
with me mentioning David West.

536
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,639
Jeffs am I endorsing anything
that that ruling or Warren ended

537
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:17,880
up doing that were bad?
There's some interesting history

538
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,080
with ruin.
Jeff's that.

539
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,960
Part of me wonders how
accountable he was in his later

540
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,120
years.
I don't know if you and Jacob

541
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:30,280
the Dream or others talked about
this on one of your podcaster.

542
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,120
He did somewhere.
But when Ervil Lebaron was doing

543
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:38,960
his threats, he put one out on
Fred Collier.

544
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,040
He put one out on Ross Lebaron
as well as his brother Berlin,

545
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:43,719
and he obviously had Joel
killed.

546
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,600
And but on the same day that
Berlin was killed, there was an

547
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,600
auto accident in Salt Lake City.
So Verlin was killed in Mexico

548
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,480
City and Rulon Jeffs crashed his
car in Salt Lake City the same

549
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,840
day.
And what they would do with the

550
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,800
mafia working under Ervil
Lebaron is that they would go in

551
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,000
and mess with your steering
column to the point where when

552
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,720
you start driving, you don't
really realize anything's going

553
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:12,520
wrong.
But it will gradually come loose

554
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,920
and you'll lose control of your
steering and you'll be able to

555
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,840
steer.
In any case, he he suffered

556
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:25,080
severe head trauma and possible
mental trauma as a result of

557
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,760
that.
And part of me wonders if the

558
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,320
environment that was created was
a result of partially a result

559
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:38,880
of that in addition to the the
one man ideology created, what

560
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,080
happened with Warren?
And obviously as you've you and

561
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,040
I have talked about the LDS
Church pushing polygamy so far

562
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,800
underground that all was the bit
you know that that was all bad

563
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,000
news.
But in any case, nothing I've

564
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,720
ever seen to indicate David West
Jeffs was questionable in any

565
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,440
way stretch for imagination.
In fact, when the priesthood

566
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:07,640
split was happening in the 50s,
Joseph Musser extended an

567
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,240
invitation for David West Jeffs
to get a second anointing and be

568
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:14,120
ordained to the the apostleship
in the new council.

569
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,080
Gotcha.
So he wanted David W Jeffs to be

570
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,880
on the new priesthood council
when he knew when there was that

571
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,840
split and obviously David W
Jeffs did not take him up on

572
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,840
that.
It would have and obviously it

573
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,160
would have put him against his
son who was on the council.

574
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,240
Right.
At that point, in any case,

575
00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:33,600
that's some interesting history
about him.

576
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,240
We're going to get into some
other stuff about him because

577
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:39,480
he's, you know, he's really
young and he's now a

578
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,520
brother-in-law.
And Joseph John W Taylor in in

579
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,760
his journal, he writes in David
West, Jeff's journal.

580
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,120
He writes on June 27th, 1900,
Phoebe Wooley and I were married

581
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,840
in the Salt Lake Temple.
We were sealed by John R Winder.

582
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:57,720
That's a future member of the
First Presidency.

583
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,040
He's not a member of the First
Presidency yet, but he will be a

584
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,520
future member of the First
Presidency.

585
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:05,720
When you did witness, last name
was Winder.

586
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:10,280
Yeah.
Any relationship to the winders

587
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:16,640
down in like?
Probably Colton Winder in them.

588
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:18,840
Yep.
Interesting.

589
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,640
We were sealed by John R Winder
and witnessed by George Romney

590
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,040
and John W Wooley.
There were present William Y

591
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,360
Jeffs, my father, Minerva
Knowlton, President Lorenzo

592
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,640
Snow's daughter.
She was there for some reason.

593
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:41,400
Leroy C Snow.
That's son of President Snow and

594
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,720
a lady that he had married the
same day.

595
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,520
Our wedding reception was held
at the home of Phoebe's father

596
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,840
in Grantsville, UT.
So forth and so on.

597
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:54,920
Grantsville keeps coming up,
too.

598
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,920
That seems to be a hot bed of
activity.

599
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,040
But for Samuel Wooley lives, and
that's where three of the first

600
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,960
three of John W Taylor's wives
came from.

601
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,560
That was a target environment.
Yeah, yeah, it's the middle of

602
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,000
nowhere now.
I don't know what the heck

603
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,760
happened.
Yeah, yeah.

604
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,120
You got to drive aways before
you're in Grantsville now.

605
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,600
Yeah.
In any case, we'll put a pin on

606
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,520
him for a bit.
We'll come back to David West

607
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:25,560
Jeffs July.
So when was that was that was

608
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,360
June.
Now we're the next month.

609
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:33,320
In July 18th, Matthias Cowley
performs a marriage ceiling for

610
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,080
Hugh J.
Cannon, which is a son of George

611
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,480
Buchanan and John M Cannon, who
was a nephew of President George

612
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,560
Buchanan.
So now John M Cannon, counselor

613
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,000
to Frank White Taylor, has
entered into post manifesto

614
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,360
polygamy and so has Hugh J
Cannon.

615
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,560
And this is under the direction
of George Buchanan, by the way,

616
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,800
but with, as we remarked at the
beginning of his episode, right?

617
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,160
He was like, I totally sustained
what President Lorenzo Snow

618
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:01,880
said.
Right.

619
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,760
And says one thing and it's it's
not.

620
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,560
Yeah, it's do what I do and not
what I say in this situation, I

621
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:12,840
guess.
Right.

622
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,760
On August 6th, 1900, state
patriarch Thomas Chamberlain

623
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:26,320
Junior marries his sixth wife,
Mary Elizabeth Wooley in the

624
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,840
Salt Lake in Salt Lake City by
Matthias Cowley.

625
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:38,920
Moving on, in August 7th, 1900
down in Mexico, Joseph F Smith

626
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,480
is hanging out down there with
Seymour B Young remembered.

627
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,520
Seymour B.
Young was called to fill the

628
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:50,000
presidency of the 70s in 1882.
Revelation and Joseph F Smith

629
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:56,600
tells him to perform a marriage
for Benjamin Clough Junior and

630
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,360
he also in addition to telling
Seymour Seymour B Young to

631
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,920
perform 2 marriages, he also
commissions.

632
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,840
Alexander F McDonald to perform
new plural marriages in Mexico

633
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,240
for any Mexican residents who
request them.

634
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:14,960
So that's interesting to note
because there so patriarch

635
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,640
Alexander McDonald was the first
person on the scene doing plural

636
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:24,080
marriages in 1890 down in Mexico
when he was in the mission

637
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,920
presidency under George
Teasdale.

638
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,800
So him and George Teasdale are
working together, but then it's

639
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,600
now a state organization and
Anthony Ivins, estate president,

640
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,920
and he started taking care of
the marriages.

641
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,000
But then Lorenzo Snow had sent a
letter down to Mexico for

642
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,840
President Ivins to stop doing
plural marriages in Mexico for a

643
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,680
time.
But now you have Joseph F Smith

644
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,960
opening the door through
Patriarch McDonald again back,

645
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,680
you know, opening a back door
for that to work.

646
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:11,000
Like it's the the amount of just
back and forth on this gives you

647
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,320
whiplash.
I mean it's like don't do it.

648
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,600
And then another guy comes down
of equal equal standing and says

649
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:20,680
no, do it.
In fact, I'm going to let this

650
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,720
other guy do this.
So you have some help.

651
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:29,320
I mean nuts.
Do we have any good solid idea

652
00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:32,880
how many plural marriages were
happening in Mexico?

653
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,280
I would imagine that maybe the
records aren't as pristine as,

654
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,280
say, up up here in the States.
Do we have a good idea of how

655
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,480
many plural marriages were
happening down there?

656
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,600
I couldn't if I were to run
downstairs and grab a little

657
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,720
book that I have that Grant
Ivins put out Grant Ivins, full

658
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:59,880
name Heber.
Grant Ivins, who was a nephew or

659
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,120
first cousin once removed of
Heber J Grant and son of Anthony

660
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,520
W Ivins, who we're talking about
right, he put together a little

661
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:12,040
book called Polygamy in Mexico
and I.

662
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,200
It has excerpts from his
father's marriage book of the

663
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,000
marriages that he was doing that
were approved of the church.

664
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,600
And there's quite a bit of them,
by the way, there's I don't know

665
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:32,040
exactly how many there are, but
there's 260 something recognized

666
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,000
by church authority between the
1st and 2nd Manifesto, that

667
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,840
which includes Mexico, States
and Canada.

668
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,880
You know, and I'm guessing
because, look, they just weren't

669
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,160
as good as keeping records as we
are today, right?

670
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,280
It's not as easy to file that
stuff way.

671
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,160
Things get lost.
So I imagine it's probably even

672
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,080
more than that.
And the fact that Joseph S Smith

673
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,360
goes down there and calls
another guy to be like go to

674
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,680
work son there, there must have
been quite a bit happening down

675
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,360
in Mexico.
Yeah, well dude, there's.

676
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,800
And it's not just like it's one
guy goes down there and takes

677
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,480
one wife.
There's when I was looking at

678
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,120
those lists, there's a guy named
George Nagle who after moving

679
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,640
down there, he married like 3 or
4 girls, you know?

680
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,920
And he's not the only one, you
know, over time after living

681
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,680
there, making your life there,
but it's they were, it was not

682
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,520
just a you can take one more
plural life, guys, but then you

683
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,520
got to get out of our sight and
go down to Mexico.

684
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,040
I mean, maybe that's what some
of the idea was or maybe it

685
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,320
wasn't even talked about like
how far you can take it.

686
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,960
I mean, but it's just literally
polygamy in Mexico.

687
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:46,560
This point is going on as if the
manifesto never happened, as if

688
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,360
the 1880s underground days never
happened.

689
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,920
You know what I mean?
It's just early Utah, pretty

690
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,000
much practically, you know, at
that point.

691
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,640
Boy, those guys in Mexico have
the best of both worlds.

692
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,080
No winner and you get to have
your family.

693
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,120
I mean, holy cow.
Yeah.

694
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,800
Talk about if.
He so Alexander McDonald is

695
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,960
instructed to perform thorough
marriages for any resident in

696
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,600
the colonies.
So not visitors, but residents.

697
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:25,040
So I I suppose that's a
limitation of, you know,

698
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,920
regarding what he was directed
to do.

699
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,440
In any case, back to Seymour B
Young, who was instructed to

700
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,920
perform special cases.
Because I believe Benjamin

701
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,200
Clough Junior was not a resident
of Mexico.

702
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,080
I believe he was either a
mission president or he was

703
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,520
involved with BYU, which wasn't
BYU at the time.

704
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,720
It was Brigham Young Academy.
Not entirely sure from my

705
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,800
memory, but in any case he was.
I think he was living back up in

706
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,200
Utah, but they were going to
hook him up while he was down

707
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:59,680
there in Mexico, Seymour B.
Young records in his diary Last

708
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,640
evening after meeting, I was
called to administer and bless

709
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,040
sister Florence Reynolds Clough
in connection with her husband.

710
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,720
I gave her such a blessing.
She will never forget.

711
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,080
Neither will Brother Clough.
Forget she gave.

712
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,680
It's not the end of that entry.
She gave birth to their first

713
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:23,120
child less than ten months
later, The next day, Yes, the

714
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:28,160
next day, I told Colonia Dublon
Joseph I Clawson, whose first

715
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,000
wife was childless, asked
Counselor Joseph F Smith to make

716
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,840
an exception to the ban on new
plural marriages in Mexico,

717
00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:38,000
which obviously he wasn't
playing by those rules anyway.

718
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,320
And he had Seymour B.
Young take care of Joseph

719
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,360
Clawson and and Seymour B.
Young records in his journal.

720
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,840
During this eve President Smith
asked me if I would like to go

721
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,680
with brother Pratt.
That's Juarez State count State

722
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,320
presidency counselor Helaman
Pratt, son of Parley P Pratt who

723
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,200
was also a post manifesto
polygamist.

724
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,640
He asked me if I would like to
go with Brother Pratt and

725
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,360
minister to a couple who needed
my administration.

726
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,720
I went and attended to this
duty.

727
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:14,000
There was Joseph Clawson and
Celestia Durfee, and then he

728
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,920
recorded the words of the
sealing ceremony for time and

729
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:22,840
eternity.
Nice, nice dude.

730
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,040
Hey, yeah, going to Joseph S
Smith.

731
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:32,400
Going hey, can you wave that for
me Like he's not like look

732
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,960
around bro.
Be a little be a little bit self

733
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,640
aware of what's happening around
you.

734
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,080
You're you're, you're, you're
fine.

735
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:41,240
Yeah, down there, there, it
looks like they're pretty fine.

736
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,080
So this gets interesting to
write out.

737
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,360
On the heels of that, in a
meeting in the Salt Lake Temple,

738
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,760
George Buchanan gets into a
little bit of a disagreement

739
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:56,280
with Florenzo Snow over policy
and basically tells him

740
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,280
President, I asked that I not be
excommunicated if I fall in love

741
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,520
without your approval if I have
no children and take a woman and

742
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,840
have one buyer because he
basically he was getting

743
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,680
frustrated that he had no young
children anymore.

744
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,840
Right.
He had no babies in his

745
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:18,320
household and he's like, I'm
going to take another wife and I

746
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,440
hope you won't excommunicate me
if I do that.

747
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:30,360
That's hilarious.
Let's see in his own journal.

748
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,080
So I got I got that bit from a
book called The Read Smooth

749
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:40,960
Hearings by Michael Harold
Hollows, Condon, Smith, Hanson

750
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,120
and some others.
But George You Can's personal

751
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,680
journal account for that day
reads.

752
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,560
At 11:00 we held our usual
meeting in the temple.

753
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:55,080
President Snow was not able to
clothe for prayers right and

754
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,240
wished me to take charge.
I offered the opening prayer and

755
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:00,360
Brother Teasdale was mouthed in
the circle.

756
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,840
Considerable business was done
and we had a very interesting

757
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,360
conversation concerning the
principle of floral marriage.

758
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,720
It would have been so
interesting to be a family on

759
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:11,280
the wall in some of those
meetings.

760
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,920
Yeah, from from books I've read
that haven't sourced things

761
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,400
obviously that are sourcing
outside of that journal and the

762
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,280
minutes.
Apparently they really got into

763
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:27,000
it.
And you know, George Buchanan

764
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,240
was going to take another wife
no matter what at that point.

765
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:34,880
Sad to say he never did.
He doesn't live that long,

766
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,320
sadly.
On the heels of that, towards

767
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,160
the end of the year, November,
this is cool.

768
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:44,320
This is really cool.
Back in Mexico with Joseph F

769
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:49,200
Smith, November 1900, in Juarez
Stake of Zion.

770
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:55,000
After after consultation with
Joseph F Smith for their first

771
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,680
visit to the Latter Day Saints
and Juarez Stake, Owen Woodruff

772
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,480
arrives first and while there
before Joseph F Smith arrived,

773
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:10,800
he performed a plural marriage
there and then While Joseph F

774
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,560
Smith was there, he witnesses
plural marriage done by

775
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,800
Patriarch Alexander F McDonald
that we just mentioned before,

776
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:23,560
which had been authorized by
Joseph F Smith on November 18th

777
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:28,000
during that State Conference.
A few days later, Owen Woodruff,

778
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,640
while talking in State
Conference, prophesied that

779
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,960
polygamist children would always
be born in the Church until the

780
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,680
Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
After making that prophecy,

781
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,360
Woodruff turned towards Joseph.
There sits the man that can set

782
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:47,840
me right and presidents sitting
on the stand next to him made

783
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,280
zero effort to correct.
Wow.

784
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:59,320
Now, I will say it's interesting
that that prophecy is pretty.

785
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,520
I mean, I've heard that in
Mormon fundamentalist folklore

786
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,640
before about that instance.
Where where Owen Woodruff makes

787
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,040
that statement.
But I didn't realize until I did

788
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,800
this, this, these studies on
this topic that he is basically

789
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:16,000
quoting verbatim what Mariner
Merrill said, right almost

790
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,160
almost a year earlier, in
January of that same year.

791
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:25,520
So I want to talk about this for
a minute because I think about

792
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,160
this prophecy that that that
Mariner Merrill makes Owen

793
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,400
Woodruff reiterates.
And I would love to know if

794
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:41,560
that's actually the case,
because when when he says the

795
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,680
church, I don't think that they
have any idea that there's a

796
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,080
split coming.
Sure.

797
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,000
Right.
And so now the question becomes,

798
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,360
and this is gonna get
uncomfortable for for some folks

799
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,200
here, and I apologize, but now
the question becomes this.

800
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,240
There is only two ways that that
prophecy can be fulfilled.

801
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:09,600
One of two ways.
One is to this day there are low

802
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,400
key polygamists in the LDS
church, which, look, I did for

803
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,960
years.
It's it can be done right?

804
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,000
We never had a kid, right?
That would have complicated some

805
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,000
things, right.
I'm not saying you couldn't get

806
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,880
away with it, but that would be
awfully tough in today's day and

807
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:30,280
age.
Or, and and this is the part

808
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,920
that's maybe most uncomfortable,
did the authority leave the

809
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,600
church altogether at a certain
point?

810
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:45,040
And the church that we speak of
now isn't the organized church

811
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,200
that we are talking about back
then.

812
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:50,360
I'd like to get your thoughts on
that.

813
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,880
So First off, little anecdote.
There's a book called that I

814
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,640
bought last year.
It's called the The Last Called

815
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,720
Mormon Colonization, the Bighorn
Basin, Wyoming something

816
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:02,080
something.
It was a pretty long title.

817
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,120
In any case.
It's about Owen Woodruff taking

818
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:10,400
a colony up to the Bighorn Basin
to to colonize that area.

819
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:16,760
And the author, I believe, who
descends through polygamy, but

820
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:18,960
he's not a really member of the
church anymore.

821
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:24,160
He did an anonymous survey of
that area by Byron and Lovell

822
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,680
and Cody and Cow Lee because
they named the town after

823
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,760
Matthias Cali there.
You know, the town of Cali.

824
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,480
Yeah.
They took a survey of, you know,

825
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,240
church membership there and it
was Anonymous.

826
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,720
And basically asking is, do you,
some of you still practice

827
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:45,520
polygamy?
And you know, there's an Allred

828
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,480
group branch there too.
And so that was also accounted

829
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,760
for.
But there were the statistics

830
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,520
show from the result of that
Anonymous poll that there were

831
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:59,680
members of the church in in in
Byron and Lovell in that area.

832
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:01,960
And and and what year would this
have been?

833
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,760
It was published last year.
Really.

834
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:08,840
Yeah.
I don't know when the survey was

835
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,080
done, but it was published last
year.

836
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,320
I'd be.
Interested to know the date of

837
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,320
that survey?
Yeah, me too.

838
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:18,960
I'll have to get that.
It's relatively.

839
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,000
Recent because it had it
acknowledged AUB presence.

840
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:23,640
In.
OK.

841
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:24,640
All right.
Yeah.

842
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:30,080
So we're so we're talking
currently no later than the 70s.

843
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:32,440
Could be even more recently,
Yeah.

844
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,840
Yeah, exactly, That's what.
I'm saying it couldn't be much

845
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:36,760
later than the 70s.
Right.

846
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,840
No, no, not at all.
Yeah, very interesting.

847
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:46,560
But in section 10 of the Doctor.
Thinks I need to edit that part

848
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,960
out just so I don't bring undue
heat on some brethren.

849
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:51,840
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe.

850
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:53,560
And yeah, you can think about
that.

851
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,520
And I can even give you the
source for that.

852
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,320
And we can read over that
together, maybe on a phone call

853
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:05,360
or something.
But there's a in Section 10 of

854
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,920
the Doctrine Covenants.
It says the He Who will Not Come

855
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,560
unto Me, meaning the Lord and
repent and call upon my name.

856
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,520
He is not my church.
And any more or less than this

857
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,600
is, is, is evil, right.
OK, yeah.

858
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,880
So to an extent, there's a
spectrum of of accountability

859
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,520
and to the lightened knowledge
that a person has received, if

860
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,040
you are not progressing in
lightened knowledge by seeking

861
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:37,480
more, you're not the church
because you're not repenting.

862
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:38,720
You're not coming under the
Lord.

863
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:44,000
And so I believe, for example,
me, I've gotten to a point in my

864
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,360
life where I've had things
revealed to me that to be a

865
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:52,280
member of the Lord's church, by
that definition, I need to enter

866
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,480
into higher laws.
And so I'm still in the Lord's

867
00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:00,440
church, even though I could end
up getting legally

868
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,440
excommunicated from the
corporate church because of my

869
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,400
belief system, if that stands
so.

870
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,200
But under that definition,
polygamous children under the

871
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:15,680
church, you know and having a
prophecy that there will never

872
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,200
be a time that polygamous
children are not born in the

873
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:27,600
church very is very fitting.
And you can really, I mean,

874
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,760
church apologists could try to
die, set up with semantics, But

875
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,240
really, I think the intent is
pretty clear, right?

876
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:38,520
That the, you know, the church,
the Kingdom of God, whatever you

877
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,160
want to call it.
And I know that those things are

878
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,840
also technically separate, but
they are also used

879
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:44,320
interchangeably.
You could have just said the

880
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:48,560
Saints among the Saints, you
know, polygamy will never die

881
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,240
off.
You know, the House of Israel,

882
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:54,000
Whatever, You know, whatever you
want to call it.

883
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,680
Right.
No, no.

884
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,320
Good stuff.
I I thought about that quote the

885
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:05,880
last time you brought it up.
Well, also as we saw with Joseph

886
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,640
Muster podcast and we're going
to, you know, we'll touch on it

887
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,880
again probably.
But you know, in that prayer

888
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,960
meeting that Anthony Swand had
with Joseph Muster and others,

889
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:20,840
John M Cannon being there, he
said confirm, baptize your

890
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,360
children, hold on to the records
and confirm the members of the

891
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,040
Church of Jesus Christ of the
Saints.

892
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,360
And that's what fundamentalists
do, is we confirm our children,

893
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,880
members of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints.

894
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,400
Yeah, because we believe that we
are still spiritually a part of

895
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,560
that organization.
Right, right.

896
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:40,040
Absolutely.
Yeah.

897
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:43,320
No, makes sense.
Yep.

898
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,640
I that's good stuff.
I just wanted to get that

899
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:47,440
dissected and.
No, I'm glad you.

900
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,440
I'm so glad you asked.
So you have Owen Woodruff

901
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,640
getting confident.
He is endorsed essentially with

902
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,120
silence on the on the part of
President Smith in repeating

903
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,840
Brother Merrill's prophecy.
And then Seymour B.

904
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,160
Young stood up in the conference
and also endorsed Owen

905
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,680
Woodruff's remarks.
So he was a fan.

906
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,080
So that was November 18th.
I got a backtrack earlier that

907
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:23,240
month on November 1st, 1900,
Owen Woodruff writes in his

908
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:28,280
diary went to my temple meeting
President Lorenzo Snow that he

909
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,960
said he did not know how it
would be done but plural

910
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,960
marriage will again be returned.
I am just sure of it.

911
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,400
I went to President Joseph F
Smith with a matter to decide.

912
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,800
What do you think he's there to
to decide with President Smith?

913
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,280
To go from the three hour block
to the two hour block.

914
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,720
Good guess.
I'm going to take another stab

915
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:54,800
in the dark and say it's
probably plural marriage.

916
00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:00,240
Probably two days after that,
Frank Y Taylor marries his

917
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:04,080
second wife and John M Cannon
marries his third wife.

918
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:07,600
Both marriages are performed on
the same day.

919
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,480
Day by Matthias Cowley in Salt
Lake City now.

920
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,920
So after that meeting, so
November 1st, Owen Woodrow's

921
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:17,840
talking to President Snow about
polygamy.

922
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:19,720
Then he just says in his journal
he's going to go talk to

923
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:23,240
President Smith about polygamy
or about something to decide.

924
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,080
Then they go on their trip
together to Mexico.

925
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:30,720
They have that general or that
state conference in November.

926
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:35,680
Fast forward January 6th, 19 O1
They're back in Salt Lake City,

927
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:37,720
Owen Woodruff writes in his
journal.

928
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,520
President Joseph F Smith and
John W Taylor discussed the

929
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,320
doctrine that in eternity one
man will have but one wife was a

930
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:50,440
doctrine of devils Knights.
Basically saying is that there

931
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,080
will be no exaltation
monogamously.

932
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:59,400
You know, and this flies in the
face of some things that, and

933
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,600
again it happened in increments,
right?

934
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:07,840
For a long time it was said
that, you know, polygamy isn't

935
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,440
that big of a deal, right?
Plural marriage is not that big

936
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:12,760
of a deal.
You don't got to worry about it.

937
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:19,040
But to these early brethren,
this is this is some some heady

938
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:23,280
stuff that that really does have
some eternal consequence.

939
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:26,840
That's a big time thing, you
know.

940
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,880
I believe at some point we read,
yeah, when we were discussing

941
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:34,760
the 1886 revelation in the first
episode, I read that little

942
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:41,920
letter from Joseph F Smith to a
brother, Atwood.

943
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:48,000
I think that I understand, and I
always understood, he says.

944
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:52,600
That you enter into the the
beginning or in part the new and

945
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,000
everlasting covenant when you
were sealed to a wife, but you

946
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,600
do not enter into its fullness
until you have to.

947
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:00,840
Yep.
You know you're not living.

948
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:06,360
And then also when you have that
first ceiling done, you covenant

949
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:11,200
to honor and obey and live all
laws, rights and ordinances

950
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,240
pertaining to this holy order of
matrimony.

951
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,520
And so it's contingents for sure
and it's very important.

952
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,640
So in this meeting you have
young Owen Woodruff hearing this

953
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:25,400
conversation between John W and
Joseph F that there will be no

954
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,960
such thing.
Has a monogamous exaltation.

955
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,960
It's a doctrine of a devil to
teach so and he's got one wife.

956
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,280
Right, Right.
He doesn't necessarily have a

957
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,680
dog in that fight, right?
If he does, it's the opposite

958
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:40,640
direction.
Yeah.

959
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:46,360
Well, and I think this brings up
an interesting point too, that

960
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:52,760
like I get, I get calls pretty
frequently, emails and then you

961
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,800
know, I'll go to lunch with
people that that have questions,

962
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,320
you know, that reach out to me
through the podcast.

963
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:05,200
And one of them is do we have to
live polygamy in this life to

964
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:11,600
get to the celestial Kingdom?
And this, this is, you know,

965
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,120
this is my opinion, this is Book
of Dave, page 2.

966
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,320
So take it with a grain of salt.
I've said it like this.

967
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,880
Look, does it have to be lived
here?

968
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,800
I don't think so.
But you better be.

969
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,240
You better be real comfortable
with that in the hereafter,

970
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:31,400
right?
You better make your peace with

971
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,240
that right?
And to such an extent that if

972
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:37,960
the opportunity did present
itself, you could, you would do

973
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:42,880
it right in this life.
If you fight against it and you

974
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,200
go to the other side fighting
against it, I think that's where

975
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:52,720
you run into problems because I,
I, I, I, I know a lot of guys

976
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:56,400
and a lot of women who who want
to live plural marriage, they

977
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:59,440
just, you know, it's not as easy
as it was in the old days.

978
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:01,440
Right.
It's a little harder to find

979
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,360
find it you know multiple
spouses.

980
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:12,160
So knowing that God is both just
and merciful, I, I, I, I, I

981
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,600
would tend to say, look this is
probably one of those things

982
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:20,960
that it's just as important that
you get OK with this doctrine so

983
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,840
to speak that you.
Yeah, wrestle with this.

984
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,880
I don't know.
Does that sound off base to you

985
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,720
at all?
No, I'd say even further, it's

986
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:31,280
hard to find one spouse right
sometimes.

987
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,640
And but you know, in the words
of one of my favorite bishops,

988
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,600
you do the best you can and you
don't worry about it, right?

989
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,640
But also I would add, you better
make sure you're doing the best

990
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,120
you can and it really truly is
the best you can.

991
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:52,160
Right, right.
Not like Dave doing cardio best

992
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:55,560
you can, but like actually.
Doing the best you can.

993
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,760
In any case, here's a name
that'll pop up.

994
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:09,520
He's relatively important or I
don't know if important's the

995
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:11,640
right word.
He pops up a lot in just

996
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,240
documents and things.
He's in trouble.

997
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,680
He ends up being quite a
troublemaker, So that makes me

998
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:20,960
like him.
His name is Henry S Tanner.

999
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,240
He's a local 70s president
wherever he was at.

1000
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:28,280
And he enters into polygamy with
the help of Matthias Cowley in

1001
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:32,760
January 6th, 1901.
That's the same day by the you

1002
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,880
know of that meeting that Owen
Woodruff is hearing that

1003
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:40,920
conversation.
He ends up being pretty much a

1004
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:44,640
pretty vocal proponent of post
manifesto polygamy to the end,

1005
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:51,240
and takes off those like Francis
Lyman in the future.

1006
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:57,160
In any case, after that,
finally, our boy Owen Woodruff,

1007
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:01,080
January 18th.
Which would be, what, 12 days

1008
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:05,000
after hearing that conversation,
That eternal monogamy is a

1009
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:10,040
doctrine of the devil our our
our boy, Owen Woodruff finally

1010
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:14,760
marries his second wife, Eliza
Avery Clark, married by Matthias

1011
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:19,080
F Cowley.
Nice and.

1012
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:23,400
A boy?
Absolutely.

1013
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,280
And she was in Wyoming, She
lived in Wyoming.

1014
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:31,880
Her dad was a state president.
Because of that, he ends up

1015
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,240
entering into the principal
after the manifesto.

1016
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:36,680
You know, I don't know if he had
AI, don't know if he was already

1017
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,600
living plurally or not, but he
gets another wife, at least one

1018
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:41,840
of them.
And he had an interesting

1019
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,400
conversation with young Owen
Woodruff.

1020
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:49,560
You know, when he was visiting
for quarterly conference or

1021
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,320
whatever, you know, whatever.
And he goes and asks state

1022
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,760
president to marry his daughter
and asked to explain to him,

1023
01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:00,840
yeah, this is being done still
secretly, you know, and.

1024
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:05,080
Yeah, you can't let your kids
one up, you right.

1025
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:06,600
You can't.
You can't let that happen.

1026
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:10,400
I mean, if you're the old man,
you're like, oh, well, the hell

1027
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,200
with this.
We got to we I I got to do

1028
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:14,880
better.
Well, he he allowed it to

1029
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:16,440
happen.
God bless him for it.

1030
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:17,960
And he was blessed for it for
sure.

1031
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:26,520
And I don't if you can find
there's there was a little

1032
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:31,200
booklet published by some
college students on Owen

1033
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,400
Woodruff and and his two wives
and the letters that they wrote

1034
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:35,880
to each other and stuff.
It's pretty good.

1035
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:42,680
I have it somewhere.
But in any case, it was revealed

1036
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:46,480
to Owen Woodruff that he was to
ask about her when he was

1037
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:49,560
speaking in state conference or
something along those lines.

1038
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:53,400
And I think it was also revealed
to her too.

1039
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,560
But she's just like, whatever,
you know I can't have him,

1040
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:58,840
right?
Well, yeah, well, you got the

1041
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,040
manifesto.
I mean, there's been all these

1042
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:06,280
public statements, I mean.
So she's just dumbfounded when

1043
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:14,760
it actually happens, right?
All right, Getting into familiar

1044
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,160
territory here.
On the heels of that March 13th,

1045
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:22,400
19 O1, Joseph W Musser marries
Mary Caroline Hill.

1046
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:30,040
That marriage is sponsored by,
if memory serves me right,

1047
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:35,400
President Lorenzo Snow, Roger
Clausen, John Henry Smith and

1048
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:38,160
Matthias Cowley.
He had all sorts of help getting

1049
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:42,960
that one done.
What do you mean getting it

1050
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:45,200
done?
You mean like do you?

1051
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:47,200
Remember.
So he gets he gets a letter

1052
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:48,840
delivered.
I think it was from Roger

1053
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,000
Clausen, but from President Snow
saying you've been selected to

1054
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,640
enter into plural marriage.
And he already has his seconds

1055
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:57,240
by this point, so he.
Already had.

1056
01:06:57,880 --> 01:06:59,240
He already had his seconds by
this point.

1057
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:04,000
And then he gets a year later or
a month later or something.

1058
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:06,920
I think it was a month later.
John Henry Smith's knocking on

1059
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:09,960
his door saying, brother muster,
if you don't do this within a

1060
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,400
year, your blessings are going
to be taken from you.

1061
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:18,280
They're coming with some heat,
yeah.

1062
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:22,560
And then, you know, later, you
know, at some point when he's

1063
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:27,400
record, when he's courting or
trying to court his Bishop's

1064
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:29,600
daughter by hanging out of the
Bishop's house.

1065
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:33,280
And he goes and asks some point
blank, Bishop says, I would if I

1066
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:35,000
could, that can't be done
anymore.

1067
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:38,920
And Joseph Foster tries to
explain the situation, right?

1068
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:43,520
And then the Bishop goes up for
a walk, and he finds Matthias

1069
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,200
Cowley and John Henry Smith
walking together on the street

1070
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:49,400
and asks him about it.
You know those are the ultimate

1071
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:54,400
wingman, right?
Like, like, hey, you know so and

1072
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:56,120
so's my wingman.
Whatever, bro.

1073
01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:00,600
I got the apostles, right?
I mean, that's yeah, that's

1074
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:05,800
that's interesting, right?
I mean it's something tells me

1075
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:08,120
they weren't there by accident,
right.

1076
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:13,640
Like like OK, humorous scene
time.

1077
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:17,240
This is how you're about to get
a a sneak peek into how my mind

1078
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:19,160
works.
I just imagine these two

1079
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:22,840
apostles like hanging out by a
tree and they see, you know,

1080
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:25,640
brother and musser walk into the
house and they're like fist

1081
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:28,080
bumping, right?
Like there goes our boy, go get

1082
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:32,439
it right.
And they're there to to to

1083
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,800
assuade any fears that might
come up at that point.

1084
01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:38,840
Yeah, that it was completely
arranged between the three of

1085
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:39,960
them.
Look, I'm going to go in there

1086
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:41,640
now.
I'm going to ask, and in case it

1087
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:44,120
doesn't go too well, I want you
guys here as backup.

1088
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:46,720
Right, right.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1089
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:49,120
In case I get run after by a
shotgun.

1090
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:53,120
You guys got to like jump out
and help a brother out, so to

1091
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:56,720
speak.
That apparently happened with

1092
01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:01,640
Brother Muster because he gets
sent on a mission on February

1093
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:06,200
2nd the next year because
according to his son Guy Musser,

1094
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:09,800
one of his.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

1095
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,680
Renegade podcast?
Well, good news, we're on

1096
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,120
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

1097
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:17,319
from.
The first one, the Slightly

1098
01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:20,560
rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

1099
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:22,520
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1100
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:25,640
For those who want a slightly
more in depth experience,

1101
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:28,560
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package where you can hear ad

1102
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,560
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1103
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,399
Finally, for those who want to
go full Renegade, that package

1104
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:38,080
is available too, where you can
get everything in the previous

1105
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:42,120
two packages plus an extra show
where myself and Ben Winfield

1106
01:09:42,359 --> 01:09:45,279
break down the news of the day
from a very Mormon point of

1107
01:09:45,279 --> 01:09:47,319
view.
You will also get exclusive

1108
01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:51,120
access to Renegade chat and on
there you'll be able to talk to

1109
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,600
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1110
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,440
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Go to Patreon today and get your

1111
01:09:56,440 --> 01:10:00,440
exclusive content.
A brother of his second wife

1112
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,920
threatened to shoot him for
marrying her.

1113
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,360
OK.
So Joseph F Smith's like, OK,

1114
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:09,760
we're going to send you on a
mission and get you out of

1115
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:11,360
there.
Wow.

1116
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:13,800
Wow.
That escalated quickly.

1117
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:19,040
Yeah.
All right, so that was March.

1118
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:24,760
Going down to April, Matthias
Cowley performs a ceiling for

1119
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,520
Mariner W Merrill and brother
Merrill is marrying his eighth

1120
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:33,560
wife.
Wow, look at Look at Mariner out

1121
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,160
there swinging the bat.
Good for him.

1122
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:41,320
That's what I'm saying.
Mission President Joseph E

1123
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:47,040
Robinson marries his second wife
and they are sealed together for

1124
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:49,400
time and all eternity by
Matthias F Cali.

1125
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:52,440
Remember that name if he hasn't
come up yet already.

1126
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:56,120
Joseph E Robinson.
He's our boy, dude.

1127
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,800
He is our boy.
He is our boy for sure.

1128
01:10:59,920 --> 01:11:01,240
What was his name again?
Joseph.

1129
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:05,200
What Joseph?
E Robertson, I think for E for

1130
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:11,800
Edward Robinson.
So he gets his second wife.

1131
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:18,280
Folklore, at least in my hero,
you know, he's a folklore hero

1132
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:19,880
to me.
Heber Benyan.

1133
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:20,120
Yeah.
Yeah.

1134
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:21,720
Have you ever heard of Heber
Benyan?

1135
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,200
The name is familiar.
I don't know much about him

1136
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:29,440
though he.
Wrote what is probably what I

1137
01:11:29,440 --> 01:11:32,920
would consider the first
fundamentalist book.

1138
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:37,800
Really.
Two of them actually, right?

1139
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:40,200
One came out on the heels of the
other one.

1140
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:45,640
One was called Answers to Gospel
Problems and the other one was

1141
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:48,120
supplement to to Gospel
problems.

1142
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:53,560
Basically where she just lays
out things, you know, seeming

1143
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:57,560
apparent contradictions in the
LDS theology or doctrine or

1144
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:00,840
practice.
And I don't recall if he makes a

1145
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:04,320
case for polygamy in those
books, but he makes a Dang good

1146
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:06,640
case for Adam God doctrine in
that book.

1147
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,080
Really.
Yeah, and they were published in

1148
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:16,560
1920, so well after the point
that the Adam God doctrine was

1149
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:20,160
getting thrown out the window by
the church because James E

1150
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:25,000
Talmage wrote his book Jesus the
Christ in 1915 and the First

1151
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:29,080
Presidency released their
statement, their First

1152
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:32,480
Presidency Declaration about
Jesus Christ being the Jehovah

1153
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:35,960
of the Old Testament in 1910.
OK.

1154
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:38,720
All right.
And that was always kind of my

1155
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:44,080
understanding by following the
timeline of events that look,

1156
01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:47,560
I'm not going to say that the
book is completely trash but

1157
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:54,720
there is there's that definitely
had a for sure secondary mission

1158
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:58,760
of get rid of the Adam God
doctrine let's put this to bed

1159
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,480
And they they found the most
scholarly guy at the time they

1160
01:13:02,480 --> 01:13:09,440
could who was talmage very
learned and he he went to work

1161
01:13:09,440 --> 01:13:10,840
on it.
I mean, he really did.

1162
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:15,000
They could have had Winso do it.
I like Winso too.

1163
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:20,000
He was pretty intellectual or BH
Roberts could have done it.

1164
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:23,840
Not to contradict you, but in
any case you're right.

1165
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:29,360
The message was clear that to
get Jesus as the focus for some

1166
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:31,040
reason.
I mean, not that he shouldn't be

1167
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:35,800
the focus, but I mean, but at
the robbery of of the identity

1168
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:38,280
of our Father in Heaven, I can.
The only thing I could ever come

1169
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:42,960
back to is that this is a
compromise because you feel

1170
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:44,440
uncomfortable with other
Christians.

1171
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:52,520
Yep, dude, I I, I say this,
about 75% of the stuff that we

1172
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:58,480
acquiesce on, that we kind of,
you know, capitulate on is due

1173
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:03,440
to just wanting.
I mean, it is so sad to see

1174
01:14:03,440 --> 01:14:06,960
that, that a lot of Mormons like
do this thing where they're

1175
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:09,680
like, no, no, we're Christians
and and we'll do anything we

1176
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:11,800
have to for you to consider us
Christian.

1177
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:15,480
And it's right.
It's not that long ago.

1178
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:19,520
It's not that long ago, just a
couple years back, I think maybe

1179
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:22,760
not even that long where it
comes out and they're like,

1180
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:25,840
look, this whole thing about,
you know, you having, you know,

1181
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:29,040
your own children on another
planet, that's not really

1182
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:32,640
doctrinal, right?
And we're, we're still doing it

1183
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:35,160
today.
I mean, a lot of us still are

1184
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:42,080
doing that thing where it's like
the kid who so desperately wants

1185
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:45,200
to hang out with the cool kids
that they will say and do

1186
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:46,400
anything.
Right.

1187
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:50,720
That's exactly what it's like.
And I'm just like, stop, stop,

1188
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:53,240
stop, stop.
I let's not care about that

1189
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:55,640
label.
Let's just get over that.

1190
01:14:57,120 --> 01:14:59,320
If you've got friends that won't
talk to you because you're

1191
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:02,640
Mormon.
Move on, move on.

1192
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:08,080
Dude, straight up I I I've never
needed validation for my

1193
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:11,600
testimonies.
Jesus Christ, a so-called

1194
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:14,480
Christian and they shouldn't
require it of me anyways.

1195
01:15:14,480 --> 01:15:18,640
It shouldn't matter Absolutely.
In any case, Brother Hebrew

1196
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:23,720
Bennion gives a fabulous
rhetorical defense for the Adam

1197
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:27,960
God doctrine.
I'll paraphrase from memory.

1198
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:33,280
He essentially says it's a It's
astounding to me that Latter Day

1199
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:37,240
Saints could ever ascribe
described to being the gods of

1200
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:40,080
anything.
If Father Adam couldn't be the

1201
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:42,280
gods over his own posterity,
yeah.

1202
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:45,280
That's awesome.
You know, because what else?

1203
01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:46,920
What else are we to be the gods
of right?

1204
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:48,680
Right.
Yeah, absolutely.

1205
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:54,080
And he goes for a forward saying
Jehovah can be used

1206
01:15:54,080 --> 01:16:00,120
interchangeably as the son or a
son of God, you know, And so

1207
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:02,360
that kind of that can reconcile
the contradiction.

1208
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:06,320
Fabulous little excerpt.
In any case, April 10th, 19 O1

1209
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:09,200
He marries his second wife.
They're hooked up by Matthias

1210
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:12,600
Galley.
April 12th, 19 O one president

1211
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:18,480
George Q Cannon dies.
Sadly, he wasn't super, super

1212
01:16:18,480 --> 01:16:24,600
old.
According to D Michael Quinn, he

1213
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:27,720
arranged for plural marriages
for three of his sons and three

1214
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,800
of his nephews before he died,
which we saw with Hugh J Cannon

1215
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:32,680
and and John M Cannon and
others.

1216
01:16:33,480 --> 01:16:36,800
He was adamant about maintaining
the principle and raising

1217
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,320
children even with taking new
wives himself out to the

1218
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:43,720
manifesto.
Well, Joseph Muster as we

1219
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:49,160
discussed later or earlier.
Joseph Muster in his later years

1220
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:52,400
recalled that the first time he
ever heard about the 1886 events

1221
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:58,560
was from George Q Cannon, and
that George Buchanan was also

1222
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:03,160
the source for Matthias Cowley's
authority and Commission to

1223
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:05,880
perform new plural marriage
ceilings for Church leaders and

1224
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:10,440
other worthy members.
As far as we know, the marriages

1225
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:16,040
the Matthias Cowley did #45
plural ceilings from 1898 until

1226
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:20,560
the 2nd Manifesto issued by
President Joseph F Smith, April

1227
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:25,360
6th, 1904.
Now I will spoil it, as Callie

1228
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:30,320
does perform more after the
Second Manifesto, but but there

1229
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:34,360
was 45 between the time he was
given that authority from George

1230
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:37,240
Buchanan to the Second
Manifesto.

1231
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:46,720
On the heels of George Buchanan
dying on April 12th, we're going

1232
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:51,480
to circle back to to David W
Jeff's Now OK, between June and

1233
01:17:51,480 --> 01:17:58,280
July of 19 O1, he is invited to
attend what he called in his

1234
01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:02,400
journal Patriarchal Meetings at
the home of John W Taylor in

1235
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:05,640
Farmington, UT.
Interesting.

1236
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:12,920
Very interesting.
So is is this John W setting up?

1237
01:18:15,480 --> 01:18:18,640
Setting up?
I don't want to say an alternate

1238
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:23,320
organization, but maybe an
auxiliary to keep plural

1239
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:25,800
marriage alive.
I think so.

1240
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:28,720
When I'm looking at this, as
I've accumulated some evidence,

1241
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:34,280
this to me looks like it's like
an earlier version, at least at

1242
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:38,720
least of of Nathaniel Baldwin's
radio plant going on.

1243
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:45,520
What we have is for sure of
testimony meetings being given

1244
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:49,080
where family and close friends
are being brought in, where

1245
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:51,840
they're hearing and relating
testimonies regarding the

1246
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:53,760
principle and the perpetuation
of the principle.

1247
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:58,080
You have gifts of the Spirit
like speaking in tongues that

1248
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:01,200
are present.
It's probably likely that true

1249
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:07,400
order of prayer was done for
endowed members because members

1250
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:11,960
of the form of the 12 and other
select leaders were allowed to

1251
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:14,800
have their own prayer circles
outside of the temple.

1252
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:18,880
Right.
And I don't know for sure it's

1253
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:23,720
not called that in any of the
things I've seen, but I highly

1254
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:25,400
doubt it's not.
Right.

1255
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:34,160
A circle prayer quorum.
And I'm just going to, I'm just

1256
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:36,400
going to read some of the
information I have on that now

1257
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:41,440
while David West Jeffs was
attending these patriarchal

1258
01:19:41,440 --> 01:19:47,240
meetings, patriarch of Davis
Stake Judson Tolman, who is

1259
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:50,440
father to Jaron Tolman who took
his fourth wife in the last

1260
01:19:50,440 --> 01:19:54,800
episode, prophesied to David
West Jeff Jeff's that he will

1261
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:58,400
enter into the principle of
celestial plural marriage around

1262
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,680
this time.
So we also have prophecies going

1263
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:03,720
on right around this time.
Jonathan D Wood, second

1264
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:06,800
counselor in the Bishopric of
David Jeff's War, also

1265
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:10,200
prophesied to him that the time
would come for him to enter into

1266
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:14,760
the principle.
In the book Kingdom not Not

1267
01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:17,480
Kingdom or Nothing Family
Kingdom by Samuel Wooley Taylor,

1268
01:20:17,480 --> 01:20:21,880
he writes that quote father
conducted a series of cottage

1269
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:25,080
meetings where there were
testimonies, patriarchal

1270
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:29,520
blessings, speaking in tongues.
Nelly the spiritual life that

1271
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,520
would be John Taylor John W
second wife Nelly the spiritual

1272
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:36,680
life often spoke in tongues, but
mother that would be his third

1273
01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:40,160
wife.
Janet Nettie Taylor never felt

1274
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:42,120
the urge.
Her signs always came in

1275
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:44,800
private.
At one meeting a sister spoke in

1276
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:47,720
tongues and a patriarch
interpreted saying that the

1277
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:51,040
message that concerned concerned
Mother Mother was to do a great

1278
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:54,800
work among the Lamanites.
Interesting.

1279
01:20:55,880 --> 01:20:59,840
Very interesting.
Very, very interesting times.

1280
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:03,160
So we have Judson Tolman, who is
a patriarch in the Davis stake.

1281
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:08,000
We have David W Jeff's
attending.

1282
01:21:08,440 --> 01:21:11,720
We have another interesting
character.

1283
01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:13,800
I don't know if he was
attending, but I know he was

1284
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:17,960
neighbors to John W Taylor and I
don't know if he was at these

1285
01:21:17,960 --> 01:21:24,440
meetings, but Nathan G Clark was
considered a family friend of

1286
01:21:24,440 --> 01:21:27,800
the Taylor family.
He would later show interest in

1287
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:32,200
one of John W Taylor's
daughters, Alta, and got his

1288
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:35,400
father her father's approval to
marry Alta.

1289
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:38,960
But apparently he cannot solicit
the approval of Joseph F Smith

1290
01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:45,480
at that time to get that
marriage done, so he may have

1291
01:21:45,480 --> 01:21:47,760
been at those meetings.
Do do we know why?

1292
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:53,440
Do we not have any inclination
on why Joseph F Smith said no?

1293
01:21:54,480 --> 01:21:58,800
I don't have any indication
because literally according to

1294
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:04,920
ruling Allred in 1970s, he said
that in 19 O 9 Nathan Clark was

1295
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:08,400
one of three other individuals
that Joseph F Smith gave a

1296
01:22:08,400 --> 01:22:13,600
special delegation to authorize
polygamy to to perform marriages

1297
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:16,760
in 19 O 9.
And those people were Nathan

1298
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:21,760
Clark, a Bishop Keane and Joseph
Messer.

1299
01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:27,040
OK.
So a year after he asks Joseph F

1300
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:30,400
Smith to marry John W Taylor's
daughter, he's getting the

1301
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:32,720
authority to perform plural
ceilings, so I don't know the

1302
01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:36,080
reason why.
And then six years later,

1303
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:41,880
according to other
fundamentalist sources, in 1915,

1304
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:46,280
John W Wooley and Joseph F Smith
both ordained Joseph Musser and

1305
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:53,080
Nathan Clark and Heber Pale to
the keys of Elijah to make sure

1306
01:22:53,240 --> 01:22:56,200
that a year didn't go by that
children weren't born under the

1307
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:58,000
covenant of plural marriage.
OK.

1308
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:03,200
Interesting.
So he was definitely in at some

1309
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:05,120
point.
If it wasn't now, it was later,

1310
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:09,680
but he was definitely in in the
inner circle to a point.

1311
01:23:11,480 --> 01:23:16,040
Nathan Clark's sister married
another resident of that area

1312
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:21,640
named Walter W Steve, who we
covered a little bit in the last

1313
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:26,640
episode.
Walter and Alice Clark, Nathan's

1314
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:32,160
sister, were married by Matthias
Kelly Walter's father, Thomas

1315
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:36,360
Steed was a member of the Davis
Stake High Council just like

1316
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:45,480
John W Wooley was, and Walter W
Steed would later marry one of

1317
01:23:45,480 --> 01:23:49,880
John W Taylor's wives sister in
addition to Nathan Clark's

1318
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:51,360
sister.
Wow.

1319
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:58,800
And his brother Thomas J Steed
married another sister of one of

1320
01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:02,040
John W Taylor's wife wives.
Wow.

1321
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:07,440
OK, the stiege really liked the
the the Taylor family.

1322
01:24:08,280 --> 01:24:10,320
Yeah, or the the in laws to the
Taylor family.

1323
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:13,400
That was Ellen.
Ellen Sandberg was John W

1324
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:17,480
Taylor's sixth wife.
She had two sisters who married

1325
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:24,080
Steve Brothers.
OK and so they may or may not

1326
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:25,920
have been in those patriarchal
meetings.

1327
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:28,720
I don't know.
It's I think it's quite likely

1328
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:31,440
that they probably were based on
the way that things turn out

1329
01:24:31,440 --> 01:24:34,000
there.
They had a relationship with the

1330
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:37,160
Taylor family.
In any case, Israel Barlow

1331
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:41,200
Junior was another one of those
in Davis County who may have

1332
01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:46,360
been involved and was involved
with Judson Tolman and he got

1333
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:50,040
one of his wives.
We'll get down to that in

1334
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:54,080
particular later.
But Israel Barlow and and John

1335
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:58,560
White Barlow and some of his
boys were involved with Johnson

1336
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:03,200
Tolman and who was at definitely
was at the John W Taylor

1337
01:25:03,200 --> 01:25:10,240
meetings, according to Family
Kingdom by Samuel Wooley Taylor.

1338
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:17,000
John W Taylor canceled the
meetings because he perceived

1339
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:20,200
that there was an abuse of the
gift of tongues happening.

1340
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:25,520
What are your thoughts on?
Well, look, we know that Joseph

1341
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:32,560
certainly while not opposed
definitely we have record of of

1342
01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:35,920
speaking in tongues back in that
time period during Joseph's

1343
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:40,040
time.
He also seems to think and

1344
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:45,840
believe, and I would agree with
him, that it shouldn't look like

1345
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:54,560
a Pentecostal meeting, right?
The the other thing is that the

1346
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:59,360
gifts of tongues can can can be
good, right?

1347
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:00,920
I don't want to say that it
can't.

1348
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:04,800
I am a believer in the gift of
tongues, but sometimes it can be

1349
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:09,160
used for some pretty iffy
things, right?

1350
01:26:09,720 --> 01:26:14,920
And so I think that that John W
Taylor is is really kind of

1351
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:19,600
following Joseph Smith's leading
this that that this isn't

1352
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:24,000
something that should be done
for self aggrandizement, right.

1353
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:28,960
There should be a clear
interpretation of these things

1354
01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:34,560
and when it starts to to get
into the realm of building

1355
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:38,320
somebody up or being the
mechanism for which you can self

1356
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:42,080
aggrandize yourself, I would I
would think that that that takes

1357
01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:44,520
some correction.
I would agree.

1358
01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:47,800
I I definitely am a believer in
the gift of tongues.

1359
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:50,480
We we see it in the old days of
the church.

1360
01:26:50,480 --> 01:26:55,280
I think it's valid.
Just a matter of of you know

1361
01:26:55,280 --> 01:26:58,400
what, what is it that's being
communicated there?

1362
01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:00,360
Yep.
Oh, it's a it's a gift I would

1363
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:03,440
seek to have.
I I don't pretend to fully

1364
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:09,320
understand it or why it would be
necessary for me to use.

1365
01:27:09,320 --> 01:27:11,600
I guess, like I said, it would
just be to identify someone

1366
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:15,480
else.
I think it would be exciting,

1367
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:21,240
but but I think with anything
that's a gift from God, you

1368
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:26,320
definitely just got to treasure
it and not treat it lightly and

1369
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:29,360
make it.
It's like as we're taught in the

1370
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:32,520
church using the, the shorthand
term for the priesthood.

1371
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:34,560
You know, Melchizedek
Priesthood, which is not the

1372
01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:37,480
name for the, you know, for the
order of the priesthood.

1373
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:39,520
And it's kind of like that,
right?

1374
01:27:39,520 --> 01:27:44,440
Where the idea was don't cheapen
it by over use.

1375
01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:50,920
Right, right.
In any case, yeah, in

1376
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:54,400
revelation, personal revelation
is a tricky business too, but

1377
01:27:54,520 --> 01:27:57,480
that's what we have.
Things like that I would

1378
01:27:57,480 --> 01:28:01,840
consider iron rods for us to to
hold fast to when there is any

1379
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:06,760
doubt or question.
All right.

1380
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:12,920
So on the heels of these
patriarchal meetings that, you

1381
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:16,800
know, so we know obviously
testimonies are going to be

1382
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:20,760
given, it's likely probably even
that the stuff like the 1886

1383
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:28,840
revelations being shared, the
right after this John W Taylor

1384
01:28:29,280 --> 01:28:33,640
takes two more wives.
There's two girls in Farmington

1385
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:40,200
and he says that he went to get
president to get church, to get

1386
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:42,360
permission from the president of
the church, who at the time was

1387
01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:51,360
Lorenzo Snow says he got
permission in another in some

1388
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:56,080
other circumstantial evidence
that Lorenzo Snow was supporting

1389
01:28:56,640 --> 01:29:00,960
hooligamy.
Even at this late time there is

1390
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:07,800
an entry in Hebrew J Grant's
journal where he writes on July

1391
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:09,960
in July of 19, O1 before he
leaves on his mission.

1392
01:29:10,360 --> 01:29:13,720
Before I went to Japan, my
President intimated that I

1393
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:16,680
better take the action needed to
increase my family.

1394
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:27,320
And then on May 26th, 19 O1 he
writes temple fasting meeting 17

1395
01:29:27,320 --> 01:29:30,560
years since Gusta and I married.
She willing to have me do my

1396
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:33,760
duty and President Snow.
So he got approval from

1397
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:35,200
President Snow to take another
wife.

1398
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:43,240
But it never it never happened.
So looks like he Grant got

1399
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:45,760
approval though John W Taylor
got approval.

1400
01:29:46,080 --> 01:29:49,800
He also went to Joseph F Smith
about it obviously got approval,

1401
01:29:50,440 --> 01:29:55,920
Matthias Cowley and performing
the ceremony in John Taylor's

1402
01:29:55,920 --> 01:30:00,520
home, OK and they were half
sisters.

1403
01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:06,760
All right.
They were married on August 29th

1404
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:13,640
19 O1 His fourth wife was Eliza
Roxy Welling and his fifth wife

1405
01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:17,400
was Rhoda Welling.
And so remember back in 1893

1406
01:30:17,400 --> 01:30:23,720
where John W Taylor's third wife
had a vision of of who the 4th

1407
01:30:23,720 --> 01:30:27,080
wife would be.
I don't remember where she was

1408
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:31,440
working or what.
In any case, John W Taylor meets

1409
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:34,920
and he doesn't know because she
his, you know, Nettie never told

1410
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:37,600
him.
I've seen a vision of who your

1411
01:30:37,600 --> 01:30:40,040
fourth wife's going to be.
In any case, they needed a

1412
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:42,800
babysitter or something because
they were going to take a trip

1413
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:44,440
or whatever.
And so he went to go find a girl

1414
01:30:44,440 --> 01:30:50,640
from the ward, then brought her
home, you know, And Nettie about

1415
01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:53,320
fainted when he eventually saw
her because it was the girl from

1416
01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:58,560
her vision.
That must have been a little

1417
01:30:58,560 --> 01:31:01,560
alarming for old John W.
Yeah.

1418
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:04,320
Well then, yeah, they, she tells
him.

1419
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:06,920
She doesn't even tell him.
Then she tells him years later

1420
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:10,040
that she had had that
experience.

1421
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:11,360
He said.
Why didn't you tell me You?

1422
01:31:12,480 --> 01:31:13,000
Know.
Right.

1423
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:15,760
Yeah.
Yeah.

1424
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:22,640
No, that's that's funny.
I mean, he said, You know, well,

1425
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:24,960
I'm happy that my wives are
having their own spiritual

1426
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:26,960
confirmations that these
principles are true.

1427
01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:29,080
But what she would have told me,
you know?

1428
01:31:29,480 --> 01:31:32,040
Give a brother a heads up here,
yeah.

1429
01:31:35,480 --> 01:31:38,400
After.
So, yeah, that marriage was

1430
01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:41,960
sealed by Matthias Cowley.
He went to President Smith as

1431
01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:46,360
well.
And the kind of answer that we

1432
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:49,200
have recorded, which you've
probably heard before, was, you

1433
01:31:49,200 --> 01:31:53,880
know, in that dialogue was
President Smith saying as

1434
01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:56,520
president of the church, I
cannot authorize you to marry

1435
01:31:56,520 --> 01:31:58,560
this plural life.
However, I will not oppose you

1436
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:02,960
doing it, but patted him on the
shoulder and said be careful

1437
01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:07,840
John.
I can't sanction it, but I can't

1438
01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:12,080
tell you not to let me know how
this works out for you.

1439
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:18,600
In any case, super interesting.
I don't know how old these girls

1440
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:22,680
were, but to be, you got to put
yourself in their shoes too.

1441
01:32:22,680 --> 01:32:26,880
To be blindsided by a, you know,
handsome and charismatic

1442
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:28,800
apostle, But an apostle in a
church?

1443
01:32:28,800 --> 01:32:34,160
That says that you can't enter
into polygamy and now he's asked

1444
01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:38,160
you to be one of his wives.
What do you do about it?

1445
01:32:38,160 --> 01:32:41,240
Do you just go with it because
he's an apostle, a leader in the

1446
01:32:41,240 --> 01:32:44,160
church or or what?
You what?

1447
01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:48,560
What?
A what kind of a horrible

1448
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:52,040
situation to be in and and not
not the marriage part, right?

1449
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:56,800
But just as part of, like, so
our Have you gone rogue, right?

1450
01:32:56,800 --> 01:33:00,800
Like, are you, are you acting
against the president of the

1451
01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:03,960
church?
And it's not like John W can say

1452
01:33:04,480 --> 01:33:07,520
necessarily, no, no, no, all
this is a smokescreen.

1453
01:33:07,520 --> 01:33:11,560
You don't get it right.
It's got to be a confusing place

1454
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:14,480
for these young women, right?
It would have to.

1455
01:33:14,480 --> 01:33:17,040
Be a confusing spot for a man,
right?

1456
01:33:17,440 --> 01:33:21,440
The The only thing that is is a
saving grace here is that John W

1457
01:33:21,440 --> 01:33:23,520
Taylor is attending all these
meetings.

1458
01:33:24,120 --> 01:33:26,280
Right.
So he he knows that, hey, no,

1459
01:33:26,280 --> 01:33:27,520
this is good.
We're we're good.

1460
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:29,160
We're fine.
Right.

1461
01:33:30,000 --> 01:33:37,160
But his prospective brides don't
have the same level of of

1462
01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:41,000
knowledge or comfort there that
he does because they're not on

1463
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:46,200
the inside working.
So absolutely I I could

1464
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:50,200
definitely see where that would
cause a lot of of of cognitive

1465
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:53,240
dissidents, right.
I mean, questioning.

1466
01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:55,520
Have you gone rogue?
Are you off the reservation?

1467
01:33:55,520 --> 01:33:58,240
Right.
Yeah.

1468
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:01,880
I mean, there's all sorts of
ways someone could take that.

1469
01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:06,080
Oh, absolutely.
Well, they're mothers, you know,

1470
01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:07,480
'cause they're half sisters,
right?

1471
01:34:07,480 --> 01:34:11,880
So they they come from a family
where the principal was lived.

1472
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:16,160
And in in any case, the 4th
wife, Roxy, ends up going to

1473
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:19,920
talk to her mom about it.
And her mom is basically on her

1474
01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:23,880
deathbed at this point.
And so I took this little

1475
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:26,080
excerpt.
I'll read Family Kingdom.

1476
01:34:29,200 --> 01:34:32,520
When Roxy goes to her mom, she
says, mother John W Taylor has

1477
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:36,400
asked me to be his wife.
Her mother lay watching and said

1478
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:39,840
nothing.
It's a hard decision, Mother.

1479
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:43,400
I made it, Roxy.
But during different times,

1480
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:46,400
Mother, yes, things are
different now.

1481
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:50,240
What should I do?
Do you love them?

1482
01:34:52,040 --> 01:34:54,440
Yes.
Do you believe in the principle?

1483
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:57,960
Yes.
I can't advise you to take this

1484
01:34:57,960 --> 01:35:01,360
step, Rob Roxy, but if you did,
it would make me happy.

1485
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:06,240
And this, Roxy felt was her
mother's dying wish.

1486
01:35:07,640 --> 01:35:10,680
OK, so that's pretty
interesting.

1487
01:35:10,680 --> 01:35:13,520
Pretty hard felt I like that.
Roxy's mom.

1488
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:17,440
Kudos.
Yeah, that she would like that.

1489
01:35:17,440 --> 01:35:21,360
That would make me happy.
I think it's a wonderful,

1490
01:35:21,360 --> 01:35:24,280
wonderful thing also to go seek
your seek your counsel from your

1491
01:35:24,280 --> 01:35:29,640
parents that have a testimony.
You know, and and here's here's

1492
01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:35,240
the other thing I, I, I want to
say one of the things that

1493
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:40,240
people used to try to beat me up
with on the on on plural

1494
01:35:40,240 --> 01:35:43,600
marriage was what would you want
your daughter to be a plural

1495
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:46,760
wife.
And I'm like absolutely.

1496
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:49,280
If it's if he's a good man.
Absolutely.

1497
01:35:49,760 --> 01:35:53,040
Absolutely.
And the the other thing I'll say

1498
01:35:53,040 --> 01:35:59,320
is that those who who do not
like polygamy will latch on to

1499
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:05,440
any journal entry, anything they
can find to to substantiate

1500
01:36:05,440 --> 01:36:08,840
their point that that all these
plural marriages were bad, that

1501
01:36:08,840 --> 01:36:10,760
it was about a guy's
gratification.

1502
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:18,400
It was about all these things.
We never hear about Roxy's mom,

1503
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:21,320
right?
Who obviously has a good enough

1504
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:24,080
experience to be like
sweetheart?

1505
01:36:24,080 --> 01:36:28,600
Nothing would make me happier
for you than to enter into this

1506
01:36:28,600 --> 01:36:32,440
principle.
Yeah, this isn't a dad coaching

1507
01:36:32,440 --> 01:36:37,880
his son to enter into flaming.
This is a mom asking if one her

1508
01:36:37,880 --> 01:36:42,200
daughter has a testimony and if
she loves him, and saying it

1509
01:36:42,200 --> 01:36:45,040
would make me happy if you did.
Yeah, absolutely.

1510
01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:51,920
So Roxy's mom mom's experience
must have been look, look, and.

1511
01:36:52,080 --> 01:36:54,320
And I've tried to.
I've tried to drive this home

1512
01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:56,880
countless times.
Was it like living?

1513
01:36:56,880 --> 01:36:58,880
Plural marriage?
Well, I'm going to give you all

1514
01:36:58,880 --> 01:37:02,560
The Dirty details right now.
It's like being married but

1515
01:37:02,560 --> 01:37:07,600
twice, right?
Yeah, it's it is about

1516
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:11,520
relationships.
Every relationships have their

1517
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:14,840
UPS and their downs and if
you're committed to this, you

1518
01:37:14,840 --> 01:37:17,200
work through them.
You get past it.

1519
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:23,680
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean it's it's just there's no

1520
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:26,000
sordid details, right?
The the, the it's.

1521
01:37:27,040 --> 01:37:30,320
I know everyone wants to make it
something that it's not right.

1522
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:32,960
Everybody's got like how does
that work?

1523
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:35,440
Well, how's it work?
It works just like you're

1524
01:37:35,440 --> 01:37:37,160
married.
That's how it works.

1525
01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:41,560
Except twice.
Or four times in the case of

1526
01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:45,440
John W Taylor.
Right, right, and and here's the

1527
01:37:45,440 --> 01:37:46,920
other.
Times in the case of Mariner

1528
01:37:46,920 --> 01:37:48,320
Merrill.
Right.

1529
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:50,560
However many times you get to,
right?

1530
01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:53,440
I mean good, good on brother
Merrill.

1531
01:37:53,440 --> 01:37:55,920
I mean, I'm not sure I would
swing for those fences but good

1532
01:37:55,920 --> 01:37:58,680
on him.
But here, here's the Here's the

1533
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:03,760
thing I'll say too is that they
they glom on to 1 journal entry,

1534
01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:05,840
right?
What I want to know is what does

1535
01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:07,240
the rest of the journal look
like?

1536
01:38:07,480 --> 01:38:10,200
Was it all bad?
Because here's the thing.

1537
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:13,400
We also know that if you were a
polygamist wife and you were not

1538
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:17,160
having a good time in your
marriage, Brigham on down was

1539
01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:19,840
very liberal with like, this is
not working for you.

1540
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:22,520
OK, great.
You can you can leave your

1541
01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:24,800
husband.
We'll get a divorce right now.

1542
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:29,240
If you were a dude and you were
like, look man, I got a couple

1543
01:38:29,240 --> 01:38:31,960
wives and this isn't working
out, he they would be like,

1544
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:34,200
sucks to be you, bro.
Stick it out.

1545
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:42,880
And so women have the ability to
leave those marriages without

1546
01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:45,280
much problem.
A lot of them stayed in them,

1547
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:47,240
right?
Were there crappy plural

1548
01:38:47,240 --> 01:38:51,600
marriages?
I'm sure I'm positive because

1549
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:53,480
there's crappy monogamous
marriages.

1550
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:56,360
Some dudes are just douche bags.
I don't know how else to put it

1551
01:38:56,360 --> 01:38:58,640
right.
I mean, it is what it is.

1552
01:39:00,440 --> 01:39:02,880
Yeah, I don't know.
That's that's my thought on that

1553
01:39:02,880 --> 01:39:06,600
I it's it's just kind of a a
tender story that I like where

1554
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:11,720
where Roxy's mom just says
sweetheart nothing would make me

1555
01:39:11,720 --> 01:39:16,520
happier.
I agree with you on the heels of

1556
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:21,880
all that after John W gets oh,
sorry, it's four and five, not

1557
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:23,760
three and four, so he's up to
five wives.

1558
01:39:26,520 --> 01:39:29,360
Later that same month, President
of the Quorum of the 12

1559
01:39:29,360 --> 01:39:33,760
Apostles, Brigham Young Junior
marries his seventh wife, which

1560
01:39:33,760 --> 01:39:36,400
was performed by Matthias
Cowley.

1561
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:45,680
He strikes again.
And then September 6th, Legend

1562
01:39:45,680 --> 01:39:51,600
has it that while addressing A
congregation, John W Taylor was

1563
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:53,920
hit by a sudden pause in his
discourse.

1564
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:58,400
And while beginning to look,
I'll declared that the President

1565
01:39:58,400 --> 01:40:01,160
of the United States, William
McKinley, had just been shot.

1566
01:40:02,480 --> 01:40:09,280
Whoa, really?
Yeah, he called it on the day

1567
01:40:09,280 --> 01:40:11,160
that he died.
Yep, September 6th.

1568
01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:15,880
No one.
Dude, he's the man.

1569
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:20,000
Yeah, he was.
He was in touch with the the

1570
01:40:20,000 --> 01:40:27,360
spirit for sure.
Let's see, about that time, John

1571
01:40:27,360 --> 01:40:32,760
W Taylor's also publicly
preaching in Salt Lake City that

1572
01:40:32,760 --> 01:40:34,920
woman would soon be able to
marry polygamously.

1573
01:40:37,800 --> 01:40:41,400
John W was.
Yeah, he's publicly teaching

1574
01:40:41,400 --> 01:40:44,880
that at this point.
Wait, wait, wait.

1575
01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:48,400
So what's John W seeing that
would indicate to him like, hey,

1576
01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:51,600
this whole manifesto thing, this
is about to go away.

1577
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:54,160
We're we're going to be able to
do this again.

1578
01:40:54,160 --> 01:40:56,600
I would like to know what the
back story is on that.

1579
01:40:57,400 --> 01:40:59,560
I would too.
I'm just here to cite what Scott

1580
01:40:59,560 --> 01:41:02,520
said, but you bring up an
interesting question there.

1581
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:06,360
It was a ballsy thing to do,
right?

1582
01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:10,400
Because, I mean, you never know
what reporter from Salt Lake

1583
01:41:10,400 --> 01:41:13,040
Tribune is going to be in your
ward to write down what you say

1584
01:41:13,440 --> 01:41:17,120
and publish that and stir the
trouble up again.

1585
01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:19,920
Right.
But he's But he's feeling pretty

1586
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:23,320
hot after marrying his fourth
and 5th wife and having these

1587
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:26,320
patriarchal meetings.
He's doing it a little bit.

1588
01:41:26,600 --> 01:41:29,960
Yeah.
And so he goes out and says that

1589
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:36,560
October 3rd, 19 O1 Joseph
Robinson, who is serving as

1590
01:41:36,560 --> 01:41:40,080
President to the California
Mission, carries his third wife.

1591
01:41:42,240 --> 01:41:44,400
But then they're sealed by
Matthias Cowley.

1592
01:41:45,440 --> 01:41:47,760
So he's what?
He's taken 2 wives in the span

1593
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:50,320
of a year.
Did she come from California?

1594
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:51,280
I.
Don't know.

1595
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:59,080
I don't know.
And then on the heels of that,

1596
01:42:00,640 --> 01:42:02,880
Henry Tanner again marries his
third wife.

1597
01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:09,680
So he's also taken another wife
within the same year and then

1598
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:12,160
on.
I don't know if Joseph M Tanner

1599
01:42:12,160 --> 01:42:17,440
and Henry S Tanner are related,
but December 27th, 19 O one

1600
01:42:17,960 --> 01:42:23,280
general Superintendent of church
schools, Joseph M Tanner marries

1601
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:25,800
his fourth wife.
They're sealed by Matthias

1602
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:27,400
Cowley.
All those were done by Matthias

1603
01:42:27,400 --> 01:42:34,400
Cowley.
Joseph M Tanner was in charge of

1604
01:42:36,920 --> 01:42:38,160
was it BYU?
He was.

1605
01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:40,760
He was a teacher at BYU, I'm
pretty sure.

1606
01:42:40,800 --> 01:42:43,920
And then?
And Henry Tanner was serving as

1607
01:42:43,920 --> 01:42:52,360
a judge at that point.
January 17th, 19 O2 into the new

1608
01:42:52,360 --> 01:42:55,760
Year, State President George C
Parkinson marries his second

1609
01:42:55,760 --> 01:43:01,840
wife, family Wooley, which was a
sister to John Wooley, who Heber

1610
01:43:01,840 --> 01:43:05,320
J Grant wanted to marry.
So that kind of made him feel

1611
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:08,560
unhappy.
To me, I think that's the

1612
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:11,400
turning point for Grant.
It is.

1613
01:43:11,880 --> 01:43:15,200
It is in a big.
I've read this story before and

1614
01:43:15,200 --> 01:43:23,160
to me, to me, Grant doesn't get
the woman he wants and he, from

1615
01:43:23,160 --> 01:43:26,640
this point forward becomes a
different cat when it comes to

1616
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:30,200
plural marriage.
Well, and Matthias Cowley pulled

1617
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:34,960
him.
It gets so it gets exacerbated

1618
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:38,000
really badly actually, because
Matthias Cowley told him I'll

1619
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:43,960
help you get another wife.
And then he seals Fanny Wooley

1620
01:43:44,440 --> 01:43:48,760
to George Parkinson.
And then later down the road,

1621
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:53,080
when it's brought up in the form
of the OR in the fellowship

1622
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:56,640
meeting for Matthias Callie,
Heber J.

1623
01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:59,040
Grant brings up to the rest of
the form of the 12th present

1624
01:43:59,040 --> 01:44:02,600
judging Callie that Callie
promised him another wife and

1625
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:06,800
then wouldn't help him, and
Callie denied it and there was

1626
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:09,160
no other witnesses, and he made
Heber J.

1627
01:44:09,160 --> 01:44:12,560
Grant look bad in front of all
the rest of the people.

1628
01:44:12,560 --> 01:44:17,400
So from from that point in 1911
onwards, Heber J.

1629
01:44:17,400 --> 01:44:19,280
Grant was definitely pretty much
against.

1630
01:44:20,000 --> 01:44:22,280
Why did Callie do him dirty like
that?

1631
01:44:23,920 --> 01:44:26,000
I don't know.
I don't know.

1632
01:44:26,920 --> 01:44:29,200
That would be interesting to
know as well, right?

1633
01:44:29,200 --> 01:44:31,320
What?
What are the interactions cause

1634
01:44:31,320 --> 01:44:35,400
Callie seems by all accounts,
except for this one moment,

1635
01:44:35,680 --> 01:44:37,400
Callie seems to be a man of
honor.

1636
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:42,040
He seems to be a guy who who is
willing to to do whatever it

1637
01:44:42,040 --> 01:44:44,160
takes to get stuff done for the
Lord.

1638
01:44:44,920 --> 01:44:50,520
But he seems to to kind of
renege there with Heber, which

1639
01:44:50,520 --> 01:44:52,640
makes me think one of two things
happened.

1640
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:58,160
One is Callie just didn't walk
up to his his promise.

1641
01:44:58,160 --> 01:45:00,920
But that doesn't really strike
me as something Callie would do.

1642
01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:06,240
Or you start seeing some
character flaws or some

1643
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:12,240
questions popping up with Heber
about, you know, what's your

1644
01:45:12,240 --> 01:45:13,960
what's your end goal here, bro,
Right.

1645
01:45:14,280 --> 01:45:17,680
Maybe something's coming up and
Cali being like well, in good

1646
01:45:17,680 --> 01:45:23,160
conscience, I can't really see
helping you get another wife in

1647
01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:27,240
the condition you're in.
I I I would submit that that's

1648
01:45:27,240 --> 01:45:30,360
possible.
It also could be plainly that

1649
01:45:30,360 --> 01:45:32,040
Fannie Woolley didn't want to
marry Heber J.

1650
01:45:32,040 --> 01:45:34,640
Grant.
And So what are you going to do?

1651
01:45:36,200 --> 01:45:38,480
You help her marry whoever she
is going to want to marry.

1652
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:43,080
But also he was on trial for his
fellow for his membership.

1653
01:45:43,680 --> 01:45:46,120
He lost his fellowship, but he
was on trial for his membership

1654
01:45:46,120 --> 01:45:47,240
as well.
Callie.

1655
01:45:47,400 --> 01:45:51,200
Was.
Callie was by that point, and he

1656
01:45:51,880 --> 01:45:55,720
said he would rather die than
lose his church membership.

1657
01:45:55,720 --> 01:45:56,960
That's just the way he felt
about it.

1658
01:45:57,520 --> 01:46:07,240
And I could see him just try and
not admitting that that was

1659
01:46:07,240 --> 01:46:09,920
true, to defend himself.
Because Tim and John W Taylor,

1660
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:12,280
when they're on trial, when
they're on trial, they are very

1661
01:46:12,280 --> 01:46:16,520
willing to admit certain things.
And they still did lie to hide

1662
01:46:16,520 --> 01:46:19,160
other people and other things
sometimes.

1663
01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:21,840
And I don't condemn them for
that because they knew their

1664
01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:24,520
situation more than we know
their situation.

1665
01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:27,840
But maybe there was something
else there that he, he didn't

1666
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:29,240
want to expose.
I don't know.

1667
01:46:30,600 --> 01:46:34,080
Gotcha.
In any case, early nineteen O2

1668
01:46:36,320 --> 01:46:40,480
we remember from the Joseph
Muster podcast that Anthony H

1669
01:46:40,480 --> 01:46:44,440
Lund holds a special prayer
quorum meeting with Joseph

1670
01:46:44,440 --> 01:46:48,760
Muster and John M Mccannon,
George M Mccannon and James

1671
01:46:48,760 --> 01:46:52,160
Hendry, and others who have been
selected to keep alive the

1672
01:46:52,160 --> 01:46:55,960
principle of plural marriage and
gave them instructions for

1673
01:46:55,960 --> 01:46:59,160
staying on the underground, that
the Church couldn't acknowledge

1674
01:46:59,160 --> 01:47:00,840
these men's plural wives and
their children.

1675
01:47:00,840 --> 01:47:03,320
But Anton H1 told them,
Brethren, you hold the

1676
01:47:03,320 --> 01:47:05,560
priesthood and stand at the head
of your families.

1677
01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:08,600
As your children are born, you
should give them a father's

1678
01:47:08,600 --> 01:47:11,840
blessing and a name.
When they reach the proper age

1679
01:47:11,840 --> 01:47:14,600
for baptism, you should baptize
them, confirm the members of the

1680
01:47:14,600 --> 01:47:17,240
Church, and confer the Holy
Ghost in the usual manner.

1681
01:47:17,560 --> 01:47:20,520
Be sure and keep the record and
when the Church will receive it

1682
01:47:20,520 --> 01:47:23,560
handed in.
So we know that John M Cannon

1683
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:26,240
has gotten 2 wives post
manifesto at this point.

1684
01:47:26,240 --> 01:47:31,480
Joseph Muster's gotten one and
right after that.

1685
01:47:31,520 --> 01:47:34,640
So that that meeting would have
had to have been before February

1686
01:47:34,640 --> 01:47:39,640
2nd or February, you know,
February 2nd, 19 O2 or earlier.

1687
01:47:39,640 --> 01:47:43,920
Because Joseph Muster leaves on
his mission because of a threat

1688
01:47:43,920 --> 01:47:50,000
on his life on February 2nd.
On February 3rd, 19 O2 James

1689
01:47:50,000 --> 01:47:53,520
Hendry, who was a counselor in
his ward bishopric who was

1690
01:47:53,520 --> 01:47:57,200
mentioned in that meeting,
marries his second wife and

1691
01:47:57,200 --> 01:47:58,680
they're sealed by Matthias
Cowley.

1692
01:48:00,800 --> 01:48:04,840
So Muster is reliable on his
recollection is all I'm saying

1693
01:48:04,840 --> 01:48:06,040
right there, right?
Yeah.

1694
01:48:09,440 --> 01:48:15,240
Down in Mexico, local 70s
President Benjamin F Lebaron was

1695
01:48:15,240 --> 01:48:18,760
going to have his ceiling done
to his second wife.

1696
01:48:18,760 --> 01:48:24,000
And then she got cold feet and
suddenly returned to Arizona,

1697
01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:27,920
and the ceremony was not
performed, sad to say.

1698
01:48:29,480 --> 01:48:33,600
Benjamin F Lebaron got stood up
at the altar.

1699
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:43,280
Got stood up at the altar, yeah,
but he they so the whole family

1700
01:48:43,280 --> 01:48:45,840
moved down to Mexico to air.
Lebaron was down there in

1701
01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:47,600
Mexico.
He was 16 at this point, I

1702
01:48:47,600 --> 01:48:52,960
believe, and they were all
pretty hurt over the, you know,

1703
01:48:53,680 --> 01:48:56,120
that happening and their father
not, you know, being stood up

1704
01:48:56,120 --> 01:49:00,560
there.
Dale Lebaron lived with Bishop

1705
01:49:00,560 --> 01:49:05,160
Joseph Bentley, who also had at
least two wives sealed to him

1706
01:49:05,560 --> 01:49:07,760
Post Manifesto, but by Matthias
Cowley.

1707
01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:12,280
Staying there with Bishop
Bentley allowed him to interact

1708
01:49:12,280 --> 01:49:16,000
with Joseph F Smith, John W
Taylor, George Teasdale, Mathias

1709
01:49:16,000 --> 01:49:20,760
Cowley, Lewis Kelsch Senior,
Margarito Baptista and Owen

1710
01:49:20,760 --> 01:49:24,240
Woodruff, who all were stopping
through Mexico.

1711
01:49:26,480 --> 01:49:31,400
Dare Le Baron had an uncle named
Don Maroni Le Baron who would

1712
01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:34,600
also take two wives post
Manifesto.

1713
01:49:35,720 --> 01:49:39,400
Things are cracking in Mexico.
Things are cracking in Mexico,

1714
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:45,480
and he never Don Don Maroni.
Lebaron never had problems with

1715
01:49:45,800 --> 01:49:49,600
the church over the marriages,
even though the Salt Lake

1716
01:49:49,600 --> 01:49:52,120
Tribune exposed him in an
article in 1910.

1717
01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:57,120
The Tribune It was a rag back
then.

1718
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:03,160
All right, April 2nd 19 O2 Heber
Bunyan who we previously

1719
01:50:03,160 --> 01:50:07,280
mentioned.
I also forgot to mention that

1720
01:50:07,280 --> 01:50:12,360
Heber Bunyan was brother in
law's with Heber Jay Grant, do

1721
01:50:12,360 --> 01:50:13,880
you not?
Really know.

1722
01:50:14,760 --> 01:50:19,400
So you have a guy who comes out
with essentially the first proto

1723
01:50:19,400 --> 01:50:25,000
fundamentalist book who's
related to the guy who, quite

1724
01:50:25,000 --> 01:50:29,160
frankly, would put an end to
plural marriage once and for all

1725
01:50:29,160 --> 01:50:31,920
in the church.
Yeah.

1726
01:50:32,440 --> 01:50:34,360
Thanksgiving dinner must have
been interesting.

1727
01:50:35,200 --> 01:50:37,080
I can only imagine he marries
his third wife.

1728
01:50:37,960 --> 01:50:42,760
They're sealed by Matthias
Cowley, naturally, so he's got

1729
01:50:42,760 --> 01:50:45,360
two post manifesto wives at this
point.

1730
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:48,880
I would have loved to meet he
Rebenian.

1731
01:50:49,240 --> 01:50:52,320
He I can't tell this story super
well.

1732
01:50:52,400 --> 01:50:55,800
It's been a while since I think
somewhere in my papers I have

1733
01:50:56,040 --> 01:50:59,600
some interesting correspondences
between him and James E Talmadge

1734
01:50:59,600 --> 01:51:01,040
as well.
Oh really?

1735
01:51:02,160 --> 01:51:07,760
But when that book got
circulated James E Talmadge had

1736
01:51:07,760 --> 01:51:10,680
got had a copy or whatever and
like publicly was telling the

1737
01:51:10,680 --> 01:51:12,840
ward or what or state
conference, whatever it was.

1738
01:51:13,320 --> 01:51:17,320
Like whoever reads this is or
whoever you know blah blah blah,

1739
01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:20,880
you know this is not true and or
whatever and they're just

1740
01:51:20,880 --> 01:51:26,640
causing trouble and and well
Hebrew Bennion was in the he was

1741
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:29,680
in the audience during that
state conference when James E

1742
01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:33,200
Talmud was holding up his book
and he wrote him a pretty funny

1743
01:51:33,200 --> 01:51:35,280
letter.
I wish.

1744
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:37,360
I I wish I had it.
I wish I could quote it.

1745
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:39,720
But if you could ever find that
it's, it's worth the read, it's

1746
01:51:39,720 --> 01:51:40,600
quite.
Really.

1747
01:51:41,080 --> 01:51:45,120
Yeah.
Do you, like, offer to go

1748
01:51:45,120 --> 01:51:47,040
outside and go to blows?
I mean what?

1749
01:51:47,040 --> 01:51:52,520
What?
No, It was just like, basically

1750
01:51:52,520 --> 01:51:57,840
talmage was like, whoever wrote
this must be criminally, like,

1751
01:51:57,920 --> 01:52:00,000
insane, you know?
You should be locked in an

1752
01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:07,240
asylum, you know, And and and
Brother Benyon, right?

1753
01:52:07,480 --> 01:52:10,040
It's back.
I appreciate Brother Talmage

1754
01:52:10,040 --> 01:52:12,240
covering my sins with a cloak of
insanity.

1755
01:52:12,360 --> 01:52:16,960
Oh, that's awesome.
I was going to say those are

1756
01:52:16,960 --> 01:52:20,240
strong words coming from the guy
who reckoned the Godhead.

1757
01:52:20,840 --> 01:52:30,080
So yeah, September 24th, 19 O2
John Y Barlow marries his second

1758
01:52:30,080 --> 01:52:36,480
wife to not sure who performed
the ceremony December 8th, 1902.

1759
01:52:36,800 --> 01:52:40,560
So quick comment on that.
So now we're seeing the

1760
01:52:40,560 --> 01:52:43,640
emergence of the first
generation of fundamentalist

1761
01:52:43,640 --> 01:52:45,400
leaders.
They're in their youth, but

1762
01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:48,480
they're picking up the sword and
they're and they're finding ways

1763
01:52:48,480 --> 01:52:50,480
to enter into the principal.
This is the point that we're at

1764
01:52:50,480 --> 01:52:53,240
in the history.
OK, so now.

1765
01:52:53,760 --> 01:53:00,400
So now they're begins to become
this sense of we need to spread

1766
01:53:00,400 --> 01:53:04,360
this out to people who would be
bold enough to do this outside

1767
01:53:04,360 --> 01:53:08,800
the church once and for all.
Well, I think that happened in

1768
01:53:08,800 --> 01:53:14,000
those patriarchal meetings.
The likelihood is that John Y

1769
01:53:14,000 --> 01:53:18,320
Barlow's father or Judson Tolman
probably performed the ceremony

1770
01:53:19,040 --> 01:53:22,120
because they were there in that
locality, right?

1771
01:53:22,840 --> 01:53:26,360
If not, we know several other
apostles at this point are

1772
01:53:26,720 --> 01:53:29,560
taking that work upon them.
But we know John Y just received

1773
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:32,160
his second wife.
Joseph Muster had just received

1774
01:53:32,160 --> 01:53:38,040
his second wife.
We're going to see the same year

1775
01:53:38,040 --> 01:53:40,760
at the end of the year.
This is kind of cool.

1776
01:53:40,760 --> 01:53:43,680
You'll appreciate this doesn't
have to do with fundamentalist

1777
01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:49,320
leaders, but on a visit with
Hiram Max Smith, which was son

1778
01:53:49,320 --> 01:53:54,600
of Joseph F Smith, traveling
with Jay Gordon Kimball down to

1779
01:53:54,640 --> 01:54:00,520
down to Mexico, one J Golden
Kimball writes in his diary.

1780
01:54:01,040 --> 01:54:03,720
Polygamous marriages are very
frequent and common in this

1781
01:54:03,720 --> 01:54:06,000
country.
One man asked me.

1782
01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:09,720
One man asked me to propose to a
young lady living in Salt Lake

1783
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:14,840
to ask her to have him.
I think I shall undertake it.

1784
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:17,800
Nice.
But he's going to hook the

1785
01:54:17,800 --> 01:54:19,440
brother up.
Yes, he is.

1786
01:54:20,000 --> 01:54:22,800
Yeah, he is once again the
apostles being the wingman.

1787
01:54:23,320 --> 01:54:26,600
Yeah, I love Jay.
Golden also found out that he

1788
01:54:26,600 --> 01:54:28,400
was trying to court someone at
this time.

1789
01:54:29,040 --> 01:54:31,320
So he was going to.
He was going to, he was going to

1790
01:54:31,320 --> 01:54:32,680
enter into the principal.
Yep.

1791
01:54:35,160 --> 01:54:40,400
John W Taylor, February 19.
O3 proposes marriage on a trip

1792
01:54:40,400 --> 01:54:44,040
down to Mexico to Anthony Ivins,
daughter Florence.

1793
01:54:44,120 --> 01:54:47,640
Twice.
Once, apparently at a public

1794
01:54:47,640 --> 01:54:53,960
meeting, and another time later,
around that same time, on that

1795
01:54:53,960 --> 01:54:57,640
same visit, he suggested that
Anthony W Ivins also should

1796
01:54:57,640 --> 01:54:59,640
enter into the principal.
He never did.

1797
01:55:01,200 --> 01:55:05,320
But despite never entering into
the principal, Anthony Ivins did

1798
01:55:05,320 --> 01:55:08,640
recommend to his daughter
Florence to take Taylor's

1799
01:55:08,640 --> 01:55:10,880
proposal, but only if she wanted
to.

1800
01:55:11,320 --> 01:55:13,240
And apparently she didn't
because they didn't end up

1801
01:55:13,240 --> 01:55:14,640
getting married, but he
supported it.

1802
01:55:15,480 --> 01:55:17,680
Interesting.
Very interesting.

1803
01:55:19,400 --> 01:55:21,960
Out of Anthony W Ivins journal
for that trip.

1804
01:55:21,960 --> 01:55:27,680
He's writes We invited Apostle
Taylor and family sister Morris

1805
01:55:27,680 --> 01:55:31,160
and her daughter and sister Pert
and Cannon to eat wild Tur to

1806
01:55:31,160 --> 01:55:32,760
eat a wild Turkey dinner with
us.

1807
01:55:34,120 --> 01:55:37,840
Heber Grant Ivins, his son,
writes in reference to that.

1808
01:55:38,080 --> 01:55:41,480
This is reference to John W
Taylor, whose three wives,

1809
01:55:41,480 --> 01:55:45,200
Nellie, Rhoda and Roxy.
I will lament that it was not

1810
01:55:45,200 --> 01:55:48,000
Nellie, It was Nettie.
It was Nettie, Rhoda and Roxy.

1811
01:55:48,400 --> 01:55:52,080
We're living in Juarez.
Sister Morris was the mother of

1812
01:55:52,080 --> 01:55:54,240
a woman known to us as Sister
Mae.

1813
01:55:54,240 --> 01:55:58,000
She was the wife of Frank Y
Taylor, brother to John W

1814
01:55:58,000 --> 01:56:01,120
Taylor.
Sister Pert was the wife of John

1815
01:56:01,120 --> 01:56:03,240
M Cannon.
She was known to the people of

1816
01:56:03,240 --> 01:56:07,160
Juarez as Sister Jones.
With the exception of John W

1817
01:56:07,160 --> 01:56:09,840
Taylor, none of these men
appeared in public with his

1818
01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:14,120
wife, as far as I can tell, and
none of the women were ever

1819
01:56:14,120 --> 01:56:16,600
known in the community by the
name of her husband.

1820
01:56:19,480 --> 01:56:23,160
It's kind of sad still.
It is a little sad, but you see

1821
01:56:23,880 --> 01:56:29,400
John W Taylor and the wives of
the counselors and or the

1822
01:56:29,400 --> 01:56:33,040
president of Granite Stake up in
Utah traveling down in the

1823
01:56:33,040 --> 01:56:37,360
colonies together all together
love it.

1824
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:46,000
March 19, O3 This is sad.
This is another sad one,

1825
01:56:48,320 --> 01:56:51,000
apparently.
In March 19, O3 John W Taylor

1826
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:54,680
found out that Patriarch
Alexander McDonald was

1827
01:56:54,680 --> 01:56:59,080
performing post manifesto plural
marriages and he did not know

1828
01:56:59,080 --> 01:57:01,480
that Joseph F Smith had
authorized him.

1829
01:57:03,880 --> 01:57:07,880
So he got in trouble and John W
Taylor got after Patriarch

1830
01:57:07,880 --> 01:57:13,680
Alexander McDonald.
And sadly, in about two weeks

1831
01:57:13,680 --> 01:57:17,880
after that confrontation,
Patriarch McDonald died,

1832
01:57:19,880 --> 01:57:22,600
supposedly of heartache or
heartbreak.

1833
01:57:22,600 --> 01:57:26,000
Literally.
So that's a sad one.

1834
01:57:26,000 --> 01:57:31,800
And we know now that Brother
McDonald was commissioned by

1835
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:34,080
Joseph F Smith.
But again, these things have

1836
01:57:34,080 --> 01:57:38,000
been compartmentalized, as
you're saying, to the point

1837
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:39,600
where not everyone knows
everything.

1838
01:57:39,920 --> 01:57:42,000
Yeah.
And and I see the wisdom in it,

1839
01:57:42,000 --> 01:57:43,760
right?
Because if somebody gets caught,

1840
01:57:43,760 --> 01:57:46,160
nobody can spill the beans on
everybody else.

1841
01:57:47,440 --> 01:57:53,360
However, that sets up this sort
of scenario, right?

1842
01:57:53,360 --> 01:57:59,160
And again, it goes back to just
stick with your principles to

1843
01:57:59,160 --> 01:58:01,680
begin with, and a lot of this
crap's unavoidable.

1844
01:58:03,680 --> 01:58:05,520
Yep.
Oh my.

1845
01:58:05,520 --> 01:58:09,040
All right, here's a fun one.
I didn't know this, and I would

1846
01:58:09,040 --> 01:58:11,360
love to do more research on this
to verify this because I've

1847
01:58:11,360 --> 01:58:13,600
never seen it anywhere else.
Until I bought a book for this

1848
01:58:13,600 --> 01:58:18,160
podcast to study these topics.
I found out that Orson F

1849
01:58:18,160 --> 01:58:20,840
Whitney, I didn't even know that
he had two wives.

1850
01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:22,560
I thought he was a monogamist
this whole life.

1851
01:58:23,520 --> 01:58:26,800
But no, he had two wives
publicly before.

1852
01:58:26,800 --> 01:58:30,080
He was an apostle, and he's
still not an apostle at this

1853
01:58:30,080 --> 01:58:32,600
point.
He's still actually Bishop in

1854
01:58:32,600 --> 01:58:39,040
Salt Lake City but he marries
his third wife, Ian Logan, Cache

1855
01:58:39,040 --> 01:58:42,240
County, Utah.
Probably it was Mariner Merrill

1856
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:45,160
that helped him out do that
because he was the guy up and

1857
01:58:45,160 --> 01:58:48,040
Logan and I don't know that for
a fact but he had a third wife.

1858
01:58:48,200 --> 01:58:50,760
I'm like let's go.
Absolutely.

1859
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:54,800
Let's go super happy.
He would he he would he were

1860
01:58:55,320 --> 01:58:58,040
after 10 days after he married
this girl.

1861
01:58:58,040 --> 01:59:02,200
He referred in his journal to
himself as Muhammad because.

1862
01:59:02,200 --> 01:59:04,800
Muslims.
Muslims are allowed to marry

1863
01:59:04,800 --> 01:59:09,200
three or four wives and.
That's all that's funny.

1864
01:59:09,720 --> 01:59:12,240
Anyway, so he was engaging in
some code language, apparently

1865
01:59:12,240 --> 01:59:16,200
in his journal.
I got that out of the read

1866
01:59:16,200 --> 01:59:17,680
smooth hearings book that I
bought.

1867
01:59:19,120 --> 01:59:24,440
Let's see, following that the
Alberta stake was divided

1868
01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:28,280
because enough people have moved
up to Canada to OK, now we don't

1869
01:59:28,280 --> 01:59:31,760
need just need half.
We don't just have one stake, we

1870
01:59:31,760 --> 01:59:36,080
have need of two.
So Matthias Cowley, John W

1871
01:59:36,080 --> 01:59:40,880
Taylor and Anthony H Lund, Reed
Smoot and Joseph F Smith all go

1872
01:59:40,880 --> 01:59:42,560
up to Canada to divide the
steak.

1873
01:59:42,840 --> 01:59:45,720
And they make the, you know,
they divide the Alberta steak

1874
01:59:45,800 --> 01:59:47,720
and they make the Raymond No,
no.

1875
01:59:47,880 --> 01:59:51,000
Yeah.
Is it the Raymond Steak Taylor

1876
01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:52,640
steak?
They make it the Taylor Steak

1877
01:59:53,360 --> 02:00:01,000
Nice, named after John W Taylor
and sometime during their visit.

1878
02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:06,400
John W Taylor or Matthias Cowley
convinced Heber Allen, who was

1879
02:00:06,400 --> 02:00:12,000
going to be the new president of
the new Taylor Stake and the new

1880
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:17,320
Alberta State president, Edward
J Wood, to marry plural wives.

1881
02:00:18,160 --> 02:00:21,320
Dude, dude.
Yeah, they're going back to the

1882
02:00:21,320 --> 02:00:23,400
whole thing of if.
If you're going to be a leader,

1883
02:00:23,880 --> 02:00:25,520
you have to be living this
principle.

1884
02:00:26,240 --> 02:00:30,400
So let let me ask you this
question at this time both in

1885
02:00:30,400 --> 02:00:35,200
Canada and Mexico, is this still
predominantly just spots for

1886
02:00:35,200 --> 02:00:43,000
for?
Polygamists, I would say it

1887
02:00:43,000 --> 02:00:45,680
would have to because what other
reason do you have to, Would you

1888
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:50,240
have to leave Utah, your home,
essentially, or, you know,

1889
02:00:50,880 --> 02:00:53,760
because yeah, you're going down
to a third world nation down in

1890
02:00:53,760 --> 02:00:57,480
Mexico to to live, but you have
freedom.

1891
02:00:58,120 --> 02:00:59,760
We have complete freedom at that
point in time.

1892
02:01:01,120 --> 02:01:10,360
And then up in Canada, you don't
see the same freedom because the

1893
02:01:10,360 --> 02:01:13,680
statistics show that most of
those that moved up there that

1894
02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:20,680
we did have plural families only
had about one wife in Canada and

1895
02:01:20,680 --> 02:01:24,000
it had other wives back in the
States in hiding or and then

1896
02:01:24,000 --> 02:01:25,320
have their one public life,
right.

1897
02:01:26,160 --> 02:01:29,880
Or you were just there because
you were related to people that

1898
02:01:30,080 --> 02:01:33,400
were in that situation.
Like let's say I lived back in

1899
02:01:33,400 --> 02:01:37,600
that day and my father decided,
you know, he that he was going

1900
02:01:37,600 --> 02:01:39,480
to take another wife up there
and I just haven't moved up

1901
02:01:39,480 --> 02:01:42,520
there with him and I never did.
So you had those families,

1902
02:01:42,520 --> 02:01:43,880
right.
And I'm starting my own family

1903
02:01:43,880 --> 02:01:46,160
up there now, you know, but so
you had that.

1904
02:01:46,160 --> 02:01:49,880
But it was definitely pretty
much sponsored to.

1905
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:52,640
OK.
Allow the principal to the.

1906
02:01:52,720 --> 02:01:58,480
The the reason I bring this up
is another thing that I hear

1907
02:01:58,480 --> 02:02:02,400
that I don't agree with.
History does not bear this out.

1908
02:02:03,000 --> 02:02:08,880
This idea that plural marriage
was just for the elites, right?

1909
02:02:08,880 --> 02:02:13,480
Oh, very true.
We're just we're just for those,

1910
02:02:13,960 --> 02:02:18,760
those men who who were in the
12, maybe a few 70s.

1911
02:02:19,520 --> 02:02:22,480
But here's the thing.
If you're going to a polygamist

1912
02:02:22,480 --> 02:02:25,440
colony, right from what you
said, that's exactly what we can

1913
02:02:25,440 --> 02:02:28,800
say.
This is, if you have to go up to

1914
02:02:28,800 --> 02:02:32,000
a polygamist colony and go,
crap, we're too big, we got to

1915
02:02:32,000 --> 02:02:36,720
split this stake.
That's a lot of people entering

1916
02:02:36,720 --> 02:02:41,720
that principle, right?
Even if only let's say only 60%,

1917
02:02:42,440 --> 02:02:43,880
we're practicing plural
marriage.

1918
02:02:44,280 --> 02:02:50,440
That's a lot of polygamist
families that require two

1919
02:02:50,440 --> 02:02:53,120
different stakes now, right?
Yeah, I don't.

1920
02:02:53,120 --> 02:02:55,240
Think the percentage was quite
that high, but it was.

1921
02:02:55,600 --> 02:02:59,760
It was high enough.
But maybe there's other motives

1922
02:02:59,760 --> 02:03:02,560
for going there.
But it does not change the fact

1923
02:03:02,560 --> 02:03:06,720
the whole design of that program
was to shelter people entering

1924
02:03:06,720 --> 02:03:10,760
into the principal.
And my my point is, is that

1925
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:15,560
there's enough going on that the
idea of this was just for the

1926
02:03:15,560 --> 02:03:20,200
elites, This was just for.
And well, who's ever heard of

1927
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:24,200
Heber Allen or Edward J Wood?
Well, some, some people have

1928
02:03:24,200 --> 02:03:25,080
heard of Edward J.
Wood.

1929
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:30,440
We're going to get to that.
But but they're local

1930
02:03:30,440 --> 02:03:32,320
leadership.
They're essentially not.

1931
02:03:32,480 --> 02:03:35,680
I mean maybe in some circles
back down in Salt Lake, local

1932
02:03:35,680 --> 02:03:39,320
leadership could probably be
called elite, you know in some

1933
02:03:39,320 --> 02:03:42,680
places, but out in the the
States and the boonies, probably

1934
02:03:42,680 --> 02:03:45,160
not.
Yeah, that's that's what I'm

1935
02:03:45,160 --> 02:03:47,600
saying.
This was a far bigger program

1936
02:03:48,080 --> 02:03:51,920
than just the 12 up top with a
few 70s.

1937
02:03:52,440 --> 02:03:53,320
Yeah.
And yeah.

1938
02:03:53,320 --> 02:03:56,720
And there's there's plenty of no
name, no file of people down in

1939
02:03:56,720 --> 02:03:58,640
Mexico from the lists that I've
seen too.

1940
02:03:58,640 --> 02:04:03,000
And it's just yeah to I mean.
The argument.

1941
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:05,560
Was attached to the elites of
the church, but it wasn't

1942
02:04:05,560 --> 02:04:08,680
exclusive to them.
No, no, no.

1943
02:04:09,120 --> 02:04:14,880
I would expect the elites of the
Church to to set the example on

1944
02:04:14,880 --> 02:04:18,840
this right If this is something
that's supposed to be done, I I

1945
02:04:18,840 --> 02:04:21,280
just think that this is further
proof that bears out.

1946
02:04:21,280 --> 02:04:24,000
This is not just for the boys up
top, right?

1947
02:04:26,400 --> 02:04:32,200
All right, so so Edward J Wood
is made the state President of

1948
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:35,520
the Alberta Stake and enters
into plural marriage.

1949
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:39,720
He would eventually become the
1st President of the Cardston

1950
02:04:39,720 --> 02:04:42,760
Alberta Temple, which was
completed in 1923.

1951
02:04:45,440 --> 02:04:47,600
Nice.
And he was a he was a practicing

1952
02:04:47,600 --> 02:04:51,080
polygamist till his death in
1956.

1953
02:04:53,280 --> 02:04:55,880
And again, think about this,
right?

1954
02:04:56,280 --> 02:05:01,680
Yeah, that's a person ago.
That's a that's a person you

1955
02:05:01,680 --> 02:05:03,800
know.
I know people born way earlier

1956
02:05:03,880 --> 02:05:08,440
than My grandmother was 16 years
old in 1956.

1957
02:05:08,760 --> 02:05:14,800
My old man was born in 47, so at
the same time my dad is 9 years

1958
02:05:14,800 --> 02:05:16,960
old.
This dude is still a practicing

1959
02:05:16,960 --> 02:05:19,920
polygamist.
Yeah, so he had, he had one wife

1960
02:05:19,920 --> 02:05:25,600
in Salt Lake City and he and he
lived with his wife in his first

1961
02:05:25,600 --> 02:05:28,760
wife in Canada and he would
visit her.

1962
02:05:30,960 --> 02:05:33,920
I I I don't know if it was more
than twice a year, but I know he

1963
02:05:33,920 --> 02:05:36,880
would go stay with his second
wife during general conferences

1964
02:05:37,560 --> 02:05:40,640
right in Salt Lake City.
And and here's the thing, you

1965
02:05:40,640 --> 02:05:46,520
will not be able to convince me
that from 19 O2 you said this,

1966
02:05:46,520 --> 02:05:51,800
this took place. 319 O 3.
OK, nineteen O 3 to 1956 people

1967
02:05:51,800 --> 02:05:54,800
just went, oh crap, we forgot
about that fundamentalist guy.

1968
02:05:54,800 --> 02:06:00,120
We should X him, right?
I mean, so that's that's not a

1969
02:06:00,120 --> 02:06:07,120
thing that's not happening.
They know full well in 1954 that

1970
02:06:07,120 --> 02:06:10,000
dude who's the temple president
up in Cardston.

1971
02:06:10,800 --> 02:06:13,280
That dude's got two wives.
I don't know.

1972
02:06:14,040 --> 02:06:16,040
That's a good question.
How many people know at that

1973
02:06:16,040 --> 02:06:17,000
point?
I don't know.

1974
02:06:17,000 --> 02:06:19,120
Who knows?
I don't think it's widespread,

1975
02:06:19,120 --> 02:06:21,800
but you'll never convince me the
higher ups don't know.

1976
02:06:22,360 --> 02:06:26,280
Yeah, no, this, this falls back
under the area where it's like

1977
02:06:26,280 --> 02:06:30,640
the default will sanction that,
even though it was after the

1978
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:33,760
manifesto, because it's just, we
can't not acknowledge it because

1979
02:06:33,760 --> 02:06:37,280
it was so widespread, you know,
right.

1980
02:06:38,880 --> 02:06:47,120
David O McKay when when
President Wood died, David O

1981
02:06:47,120 --> 02:06:51,680
McKay told Hugh B.
Brown Quote We have never had a

1982
02:06:51,680 --> 02:06:54,800
greater president of a stake
than Edward J Wood.

1983
02:06:55,480 --> 02:06:57,720
Who said that?
David O McKay, huh?

1984
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:03,160
That's interesting.
That is interesting.

1985
02:07:04,440 --> 02:07:08,600
You know, there's more than one
story that David O McKay may

1986
02:07:08,600 --> 02:07:13,400
have dabbled in the principle.
And when I say dabbled, I mean

1987
02:07:13,400 --> 02:07:19,760
dove right in.
Yeah, there's plenty of

1988
02:07:19,760 --> 02:07:22,080
evidence.
I talked to an old timer on this

1989
02:07:22,360 --> 02:07:25,480
on this podcast once about Ruin
Allred, right.

1990
02:07:26,480 --> 02:07:28,880
And he named the guy.
Right.

1991
02:07:28,880 --> 02:07:32,200
So.
So there was a special liaison

1992
02:07:32,280 --> 02:07:36,640
to David O McKay.
And when someone would go ask

1993
02:07:36,640 --> 02:07:39,320
David O McKay about certain
things, Adam, God, plural,

1994
02:07:39,320 --> 02:07:43,920
marriage, those things, he'd be
like, I know someone you can

1995
02:07:43,920 --> 02:07:46,160
talk to.
He would sit, I think his name

1996
02:07:46,160 --> 02:07:47,600
was Gary Lee.
Don't quote me.

1997
02:07:48,160 --> 02:07:51,960
But Gary Lee would then go to
ruin and be like, hey, can you

1998
02:07:52,320 --> 02:07:55,160
can you talk to this guy that
David O McKay wants you to talk

1999
02:07:55,160 --> 02:07:57,640
to?
And it was off and running.

2000
02:07:58,680 --> 02:08:01,560
The the part that's most
fascinating to me about this

2001
02:08:01,560 --> 02:08:06,640
whole thing is that we have it
in our minds that there's this

2002
02:08:06,640 --> 02:08:09,440
clean break, whether that's
after the first manifesto or

2003
02:08:09,440 --> 02:08:13,120
after the second manifesto, and
it just does not exist.

2004
02:08:13,480 --> 02:08:18,840
That clean break is not there.
And from all the accounts I

2005
02:08:18,840 --> 02:08:23,520
read, it's really not until
about the 60s that The thing is,

2006
02:08:23,520 --> 02:08:26,880
is so far gone that now there's
a hard line drawn.

2007
02:08:27,200 --> 02:08:31,040
There were certainly firebrands
within the LDS church marquee,

2008
02:08:31,040 --> 02:08:35,040
Peterson being one of them, who
wanted this thing wrapped up and

2009
02:08:35,040 --> 02:08:37,280
done.
But there's a lot of guys who

2010
02:08:37,280 --> 02:08:42,440
are still very sympathetic to to
their their their fundamentalist

2011
02:08:42,440 --> 02:08:46,040
brethren, so to speak.
No doubt about it.

2012
02:08:46,680 --> 02:08:50,000
All right.
September 11th 19 O3 The Joseph

2013
02:08:50,040 --> 02:08:53,640
F Smith decides that he wants to
expand new polygamous marriages

2014
02:08:53,640 --> 02:08:59,160
even further, and he authorizes
John W Taylor to Commission

2015
02:08:59,160 --> 02:09:05,840
patriarch John A Wolf to perform
those plural, plural marriages,

2016
02:09:05,840 --> 02:09:09,200
and particularly one for a man
named Franklin D Levitt.

2017
02:09:10,600 --> 02:09:15,040
Later in 1911, when John Taylor
was being questioned by the 12

2018
02:09:15,040 --> 02:09:20,200
for his membership, they asked
him about marriages that

2019
02:09:20,200 --> 02:09:24,960
Patriarch wolfed up in Canada,
and he said to them I simply

2020
02:09:24,960 --> 02:09:28,160
delivered him a message from
someone in authority.

2021
02:09:29,680 --> 02:09:33,520
So we have evidence that Joseph
F Smith had John W Taylor

2022
02:09:33,520 --> 02:09:41,800
appoint Patriarch Wolf, and
Patriarch Wolf was a

2023
02:09:41,800 --> 02:09:43,480
brother-in-law to Mathias
Cowley.

2024
02:09:46,200 --> 02:09:49,000
Coincidence.
Coincidences all the way around.

2025
02:09:49,000 --> 02:09:54,280
And they also asked Matthias
Cowley during his trial during

2026
02:09:54,280 --> 02:09:56,520
that whole situation.
And Matthias Cowley told them

2027
02:09:56,520 --> 02:09:59,800
all.
I know, I think you know, they

2028
02:09:59,800 --> 02:10:03,120
asked him how many marriages did
Patriarch Wolf perform or

2029
02:10:03,120 --> 02:10:05,480
whatever, He says.
All I know.

2030
02:10:05,480 --> 02:10:08,440
I think a brother Levitt went to
President Smith and asked him if

2031
02:10:08,440 --> 02:10:10,560
it would be all right.
And he referred him to Brother

2032
02:10:10,560 --> 02:10:13,320
Taylor, who had charge of all
things in Canada.

2033
02:10:14,680 --> 02:10:17,880
So there you go.
Yeah, there you go.

2034
02:10:20,000 --> 02:10:24,640
Let's see.
Well, on a trip up to the

2035
02:10:24,640 --> 02:10:31,160
Wyoming Bighorn Basin, Joseph F
Smith and John W Taylor and

2036
02:10:31,160 --> 02:10:33,240
Matthias Cowley are hanging out
up there.

2037
02:10:33,240 --> 02:10:39,680
And Joseph F Smith, apparently,
you know, is there witnessing a

2038
02:10:39,920 --> 02:10:45,440
very, very pro polygamy talk by
John W Taylor in public in the

2039
02:10:45,440 --> 02:10:49,360
ward, doesn't say anything about
it.

2040
02:10:49,360 --> 02:10:54,320
And afterwards, Matthias F
Cowley performed a marriage for

2041
02:10:54,320 --> 02:10:55,280
the state president.
Wow.

2042
02:11:00,240 --> 02:11:02,960
So they're traveling.
They're doing the rounds to get

2043
02:11:02,960 --> 02:11:06,160
it done.
Yeah, yeah.

2044
02:11:06,160 --> 02:11:13,080
No there there's no doubt that
they're that that Joseph F Smith

2045
02:11:13,120 --> 02:11:18,680
is down with plural marriage.
Yeah, yeah.

2046
02:11:18,680 --> 02:11:21,760
One of one of my goals for sure
with this was to kind of remove

2047
02:11:21,760 --> 02:11:26,440
all of doubt for that.
Mission accomplished.

2048
02:11:26,800 --> 02:11:29,520
We thank you.
We got a lot to cover still.

2049
02:11:29,880 --> 02:11:33,120
What do you what do you think
about closing remarks until next

2050
02:11:33,120 --> 02:11:35,200
time?
I'm good with that.

2051
02:11:35,520 --> 02:11:37,600
I'm good with that.
Are you are you good with that

2052
02:11:37,600 --> 02:11:40,960
or do you want to keep going?
I don't know.

2053
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:44,680
I mean.
It's your call entirely.

2054
02:11:49,080 --> 02:11:51,320
Yeah, we got plenty to go
through later, so, but I think

2055
02:11:51,320 --> 02:11:53,320
we could.
Wrap her up here.

2056
02:11:53,800 --> 02:11:55,320
I think we could wrap her up for
now.

2057
02:11:55,320 --> 02:11:57,800
For today though, don't.
No need to kill either of us,

2058
02:11:57,800 --> 02:12:00,600
but I'm we got three years this
time.

2059
02:12:00,800 --> 02:12:02,760
This is really where the things
got jam packed.

2060
02:12:03,160 --> 02:12:05,120
This is really where things
started getting jam packed.

2061
02:12:05,840 --> 02:12:09,280
You know, I do.
I do want to go and spoil

2062
02:12:09,280 --> 02:12:11,560
something actually.
Maybe to wrap it up.

2063
02:12:12,560 --> 02:12:18,920
I got to find it in my notes.
Oh, wrong document.

2064
02:12:18,920 --> 02:12:20,120
My bad.
Two.

2065
02:12:20,120 --> 02:12:21,920
We haven't even got by the 2nd
document yet.

2066
02:12:21,920 --> 02:12:25,320
What the heck?
It's because I keep derailing

2067
02:12:25,320 --> 02:12:27,680
our conversation.
No, dude, it's so good.

2068
02:12:27,800 --> 02:12:33,520
It's so good.
I found an entry in Hebrew Day

2069
02:12:33,520 --> 02:12:35,600
Grants Journal.
Since we talked about those

2070
02:12:35,600 --> 02:12:38,920
patriarchal meetings, right that
John West Taylor's doing, I

2071
02:12:38,920 --> 02:12:42,120
found an entry what I thought
was so interesting.

2072
02:12:42,120 --> 02:12:45,120
Two of them.
I'll reread to him in July of

2073
02:12:45,120 --> 02:12:47,200
1933.
OK.

2074
02:12:48,280 --> 02:12:55,200
So apparently there had been a
Bishop named Archie Graham who

2075
02:12:55,800 --> 02:12:59,240
had had some experiences, I
don't know what nature of

2076
02:12:59,240 --> 02:13:03,360
spirit, something spiritual, OK?
And he was going around

2077
02:13:03,880 --> 02:13:08,720
explaining these experiences.
Church kind of gets a little

2078
02:13:08,720 --> 02:13:10,800
wary when you start doing stuff
like that.

2079
02:13:11,120 --> 02:13:15,240
Sure, right?
So Heber J.

2080
02:13:15,240 --> 02:13:20,840
Grant writes on July 21st, 1933,
Joseph Fielding Smith called and

2081
02:13:20,840 --> 02:13:23,840
expressed his regret at the
speeches that Bishop Archie

2082
02:13:23,840 --> 02:13:27,520
Graham is making, telling of his
spirit, leaving the body, and so

2083
02:13:27,520 --> 02:13:29,040
on.
He thought that lectures of that

2084
02:13:29,040 --> 02:13:31,000
kind ought not to be delivered
to the people.

2085
02:13:31,360 --> 02:13:35,240
We agreed with Brother Smith.
He favoured having the

2086
02:13:35,240 --> 02:13:37,720
Genealogical Society publish a
card to the effect that we do

2087
02:13:37,720 --> 02:13:40,280
not approve of lectures of that
kind without mentioning any

2088
02:13:40,280 --> 02:13:42,440
names.
So I guess Bishop Archie Graham

2089
02:13:42,440 --> 02:13:44,480
was talking at the Genealogical
Society.

2090
02:13:45,040 --> 02:13:50,400
In any case, few days later,
Huber J Grant writes, Bishop

2091
02:13:50,400 --> 02:13:53,600
Archie Graham called and told of
his manifestations and we had a

2092
02:13:53,600 --> 02:13:57,400
long talk with him.
I explained about manifestations

2093
02:13:57,440 --> 02:14:00,840
and the private meetings of the
patriarchs in Davis County with

2094
02:14:00,840 --> 02:14:04,080
brother John W Taylor and how
they thought they were more

2095
02:14:04,080 --> 02:14:07,320
spiritually minded than others,
and that these identical

2096
02:14:07,320 --> 02:14:10,760
patriarchs got off their hooks
and performed illegal plural

2097
02:14:10,760 --> 02:14:13,720
marriages, etcetera.
I assured him I thought it was a

2098
02:14:13,720 --> 02:14:17,240
mistake for him to go around
delivering that his lectures.

2099
02:14:17,440 --> 02:14:19,760
He thanked me and gave me to
understand that he would

2100
02:14:19,760 --> 02:14:23,120
discontinue doing this.
Wow.

2101
02:14:24,360 --> 02:14:30,840
What do you think?
So I want to say there's a time

2102
02:14:30,840 --> 02:14:32,920
and a place for everything,
right?

2103
02:14:33,720 --> 02:14:37,880
And I never want to discount
somebody's spiritual experience,

2104
02:14:38,640 --> 02:14:41,800
but I get that there's a time
and a place for him.

2105
02:14:42,320 --> 02:14:53,520
However, however, this is a time
when I feel like the church is

2106
02:14:53,520 --> 02:14:58,760
getting weary of people having
unsanctioned revelations, so to

2107
02:14:58,760 --> 02:15:01,920
speak.
Because the the, the there

2108
02:15:01,920 --> 02:15:05,040
really is kind of this idea of
we got to consolidate things.

2109
02:15:05,040 --> 02:15:10,600
Now we can't be having any.
This to me, is the first time

2110
02:15:10,600 --> 02:15:13,920
that we start seeing anything
that would resemble correlation

2111
02:15:14,360 --> 02:15:19,680
within the church, and I think
if you're stepping outside those

2112
02:15:19,680 --> 02:15:22,280
bounds of correlation, you can
expect to be called on the

2113
02:15:22,280 --> 02:15:26,400
carpet here.
Absolutely true.

2114
02:15:27,680 --> 02:15:31,480
That is interesting to know the
changing times, But I would say

2115
02:15:31,800 --> 02:15:35,680
it's an interesting admission on
Hebrew J Grant's part to include

2116
02:15:35,680 --> 02:15:37,440
that in his journal.
And we're going to get more into

2117
02:15:37,440 --> 02:15:40,560
this later during the next
podcast episode or the next one

2118
02:15:40,560 --> 02:15:44,400
or whenever we get to it.
But he says private meetings of

2119
02:15:44,400 --> 02:15:50,040
patriarchs in Davis County.
So the three patriarchs that I

2120
02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:54,120
know of who were patriarchs in
the church who may have been in

2121
02:15:54,120 --> 02:15:59,400
those meetings were John W
Wooley, Judson Tolman, and

2122
02:15:59,400 --> 02:16:03,720
Israel Barlow Junior.
And John Wooley was not

2123
02:16:03,720 --> 02:16:09,240
patriarch yet, but Judson Tolman
was patriarch in Davis County.

2124
02:16:10,160 --> 02:16:13,440
He was found out in 1910 and
excommunicated sadly.

2125
02:16:13,440 --> 02:16:16,080
We're going to get to that point
eventually, but do you know who

2126
02:16:16,080 --> 02:16:17,800
the church replaced Judson
Tolman with?

2127
02:16:17,840 --> 02:16:19,520
Huh.
Heber J.

2128
02:16:19,520 --> 02:16:22,320
Grant.
John W Wooley.

2129
02:16:22,320 --> 02:16:25,640
That's Patriarch.
Oh awesome.

2130
02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:31,720
So.
You're the church had one guy

2131
02:16:31,960 --> 02:16:35,320
officiating his patriarch after
John.

2132
02:16:35,320 --> 02:16:40,840
I mean, Fast forward to 1910,
You know, John W Taylor and

2133
02:16:40,840 --> 02:16:42,719
Matthias Cowley have been
dropped from the Quorum of the

2134
02:16:42,719 --> 02:16:43,799
12th.
Right.

2135
02:16:45,000 --> 02:16:48,040
And so things are getting even
further underground right now.

2136
02:16:48,080 --> 02:16:52,080
And John W Taylor isn't able to
be as public anymore as he was

2137
02:16:52,080 --> 02:16:55,160
for years, right?
And so you have Judson Tolman

2138
02:16:56,200 --> 02:17:00,280
carrying the torch.
He marries Joseph Muster to his

2139
02:17:00,280 --> 02:17:06,440
third wife in 19 O 7, and then
they excommunicate him for it in

2140
02:17:06,440 --> 02:17:09,440
1910.
Not Joseph Muster, but Judson

2141
02:17:09,440 --> 02:17:13,440
Tolman.
And then they replace him with

2142
02:17:13,760 --> 02:17:16,120
the with the guy who's going to
do the exact same thing.

2143
02:17:16,639 --> 02:17:19,600
Yeah.
Which I thought was awesome.

2144
02:17:20,160 --> 02:17:24,160
So at the time that Heber J.
Grant makes this journal entry.

2145
02:17:24,719 --> 02:17:33,600
Is this before or after?
Grant was kind of of, you know,

2146
02:17:34,120 --> 02:17:36,680
smack down, so to speak, by very
smack.

2147
02:17:37,000 --> 02:17:40,840
Down now he's president of the
church, and the priesthood work

2148
02:17:40,840 --> 02:17:42,200
is already going on at this
point.

2149
02:17:43,160 --> 02:17:45,200
Hebrew J Grant's already
president of the church.

2150
02:17:45,559 --> 02:17:49,360
In 1933, in that journal entry
with that, I read about the

2151
02:17:49,600 --> 02:17:54,799
where he's admitting that John W
Taylor was holding meetings and

2152
02:17:54,799 --> 02:17:57,559
he's telling the story to this
guy named Archie Graham, right?

2153
02:17:58,080 --> 02:18:01,240
Saying look at this experience
that happened and John W Taylor

2154
02:18:01,240 --> 02:18:03,959
went off the rails.
You're going to go off the rails

2155
02:18:03,959 --> 02:18:06,200
if you keep sharing those
experiences because John W

2156
02:18:06,200 --> 02:18:09,320
Taylor was having these meetings
with these patriarchs and look

2157
02:18:09,320 --> 02:18:12,480
at all the illegal plural
marriages they did.

2158
02:18:13,440 --> 02:18:16,040
And see, that's so fascinating
because I do think that that

2159
02:18:16,040 --> 02:18:22,320
sets the precedent for how the
church is going to, going

2160
02:18:22,320 --> 02:18:29,120
forward from that point, kind of
make sure that they police

2161
02:18:29,120 --> 02:18:32,600
people's spiritual activity
outside of Sundays.

2162
02:18:33,959 --> 02:18:37,400
Right.
People forget that before COVID,

2163
02:18:39,000 --> 02:18:42,520
you weren't allowed to pass the
sacrament in your home unless

2164
02:18:42,520 --> 02:18:44,959
you had special permission from
the Bishop.

2165
02:18:45,799 --> 02:18:46,719
Sure.
Right.

2166
02:18:47,320 --> 02:18:50,520
There was a time when people
would have these cottage

2167
02:18:50,520 --> 02:18:54,840
meetings, and the church finds
out that this is a spot where

2168
02:18:55,120 --> 02:18:58,360
ideas are passed around that the
church doesn't necessarily want

2169
02:18:58,360 --> 02:19:01,760
discussed anymore.
And so now are they not only

2170
02:19:01,760 --> 02:19:05,360
going to police you on Sundays
when you go to church, but now

2171
02:19:05,360 --> 02:19:07,040
they're entering a new phase,
right?

2172
02:19:07,280 --> 02:19:11,200
Which is we have to have greater
correlation and we have to make

2173
02:19:11,200 --> 02:19:15,959
sure that there aren't meetings
that are fostering some of these

2174
02:19:15,959 --> 02:19:18,120
teachings that we now find
problematic.

2175
02:19:19,240 --> 02:19:24,080
Yeah, this I, in my opinion,
that's probably a watershed

2176
02:19:24,080 --> 02:19:29,680
moment at which at which this
starts to become more of a

2177
02:19:29,680 --> 02:19:32,120
thing, right.
There's a reason Mormons don't

2178
02:19:32,120 --> 02:19:36,639
have scripture study groups like
the evangelicals do.

2179
02:19:37,320 --> 02:19:41,959
And that's that's because I
think the church does not want

2180
02:19:41,959 --> 02:19:49,400
you going to 132 and then going
to the manifesto going guys, I

2181
02:19:49,400 --> 02:19:50,520
think there's something wrong
here.

2182
02:19:51,280 --> 02:19:53,560
Right, I'll play, I'll play,
I'll play devil's advocate.

2183
02:19:53,560 --> 02:19:56,800
The Harmston Group, yeah,
started for the study group.

2184
02:19:57,240 --> 02:20:01,320
Yep, Yep.
If if you let people alone, like

2185
02:20:01,320 --> 02:20:05,000
I've always said, if you just
hand somebody a copy of the

2186
02:20:05,000 --> 02:20:09,480
Bible, the Book of Mormon and
the doctrine and covenant,

2187
02:20:09,640 --> 02:20:13,160
you're going to get and then
drop them off in a desert island

2188
02:20:13,560 --> 02:20:16,960
and or you know, a deserted
island and say OK, this is the

2189
02:20:16,960 --> 02:20:20,920
religion you have to go by.
It's going to look vastly

2190
02:20:20,920 --> 02:20:24,120
different than what the LDS
Church does today.

2191
02:20:24,720 --> 02:20:27,440
Interesting point.
And the brethren know that they

2192
02:20:27,440 --> 02:20:31,720
understand this right?
That you cannot just give them

2193
02:20:32,960 --> 02:20:36,880
the scriptures and be like, OK,
now go set it up because it's

2194
02:20:36,880 --> 02:20:41,080
going to look wildly different
and they don't want that.

2195
02:20:43,040 --> 02:20:46,240
If you, even if you look at how
the 12 quorum of the 12 was

2196
02:20:46,240 --> 02:20:49,440
supposed to function, right.
Those were supposed to be, you

2197
02:20:49,440 --> 02:20:52,720
know, traveling witnesses,
right.

2198
02:20:53,400 --> 02:20:58,120
And then there was a standing
high council in Zion, right.

2199
02:20:59,040 --> 02:21:01,960
We don't have that today.
No, we don't.

2200
02:21:02,520 --> 02:21:06,000
Right.
And so again, if you just hand

2201
02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:10,560
people the the scriptures and
say, OK, now go go do this

2202
02:21:10,840 --> 02:21:13,520
right, put this into practice,
it's going to look a lot

2203
02:21:13,520 --> 02:21:16,920
different to the LDS Church.
And that's why I believe, in my

2204
02:21:16,920 --> 02:21:21,440
opinion, the church has went to
extraordinary efforts to make

2205
02:21:21,440 --> 02:21:25,160
sure everybody's correlated up,
that everybody is on the

2206
02:21:25,160 --> 02:21:27,480
program, right.
I think that's what come follow

2207
02:21:27,480 --> 02:21:30,360
me was, I think that's what all
the manuals were.

2208
02:21:30,880 --> 02:21:34,600
It was all about not letting
people read the scriptures and

2209
02:21:34,600 --> 02:21:36,120
just be able to read the
scriptures.

2210
02:21:36,440 --> 02:21:39,520
Because if they do, they're
going to see the obvious

2211
02:21:39,520 --> 02:21:42,920
contradictions, and that's going
to cause headaches in Salt Lake

2212
02:21:42,920 --> 02:21:48,560
City.
No, IA lot of people love the,

2213
02:21:49,440 --> 02:21:52,280
they call it beauty in
correlation that anywhere you

2214
02:21:52,280 --> 02:21:54,520
can go in the world, the church
is going to be the same.

2215
02:21:54,880 --> 02:21:57,080
And I get that.
I like order too, by the way.

2216
02:21:57,080 --> 02:22:01,280
And and growing up in the
church, yeah, I can.

2217
02:22:01,280 --> 02:22:04,640
I kind of expect some of that.
And so fundamentalism sometimes

2218
02:22:04,640 --> 02:22:08,240
to me is a bit more.
Oh, it's the Wild West of

2219
02:22:08,240 --> 02:22:10,560
Mormonism.
It's more than I like it to be

2220
02:22:10,560 --> 02:22:15,320
sometimes.
But that being said, even in the

2221
02:22:15,320 --> 02:22:17,800
church though I've I've been, I
lived all over the map and I've

2222
02:22:18,080 --> 02:22:21,720
seen interesting things that are
different from one place to

2223
02:22:21,720 --> 02:22:22,960
another.
And you can't ever.

2224
02:22:23,200 --> 02:22:25,080
You can't control it all.
No.

2225
02:22:25,400 --> 02:22:27,400
You can try though.
You can try.

2226
02:22:27,440 --> 02:22:29,720
You can try.
In any case, I'm not, I'm not

2227
02:22:29,720 --> 02:22:31,960
the biggest fan of correlation.
They got rid of some of my

2228
02:22:31,960 --> 02:22:37,160
favorite teachings.
But, but I really think there's

2229
02:22:37,160 --> 02:22:40,640
some rock solid evidence there
from from Hebrew, J Grant and

2230
02:22:40,640 --> 02:22:43,600
other places that we'll see that
really those page for article

2231
02:22:43,600 --> 02:22:47,920
meetings that John W Taylor had
was a catalyst for, for the work

2232
02:22:47,920 --> 02:22:49,080
being done in the.
Yeah.

2233
02:22:49,520 --> 02:22:53,560
I I think we'll look back later
in these conversations and see

2234
02:22:53,560 --> 02:22:58,800
that it was that move by John W
Taylor that essentially set the

2235
02:22:58,800 --> 02:23:03,400
ball rolling into what would
become fundamentalism.

2236
02:23:04,080 --> 02:23:07,080
Yeah, I think so.
All right, awesome.

2237
02:23:07,080 --> 02:23:08,560
What are we going to talk about
next time?

2238
02:23:08,560 --> 02:23:11,440
Where are we going?
Race Move hearings.

2239
02:23:13,680 --> 02:23:15,280
I like that.
All right.

2240
02:23:15,800 --> 02:23:17,400
We'll look forward to that.
Thanks, man.

2241
02:23:17,400 --> 02:23:19,920
All right.
Bye, everybody.

2242
02:23:50,800 --> 02:23:53,520
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.