Episode #114: The Life & Times Of John W Taylor Part 2-Post Manifesto Polygamy In The LDS Church W/Michael Ness

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Today we're going to continue
our series on John W Taylor and

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the history that surrounded his
life.

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On today's episode, we cover a
truly fascinating period in

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Mormon history.
Now we left off last time, right

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as the LDS Church was about to
sign the manifesto.

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Well, today we're going to cover
that and also how the LDS Church

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continued to perform plural
marriages.

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We cover how the LDS Church
tried to keep this practice

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hidden, the colonies in Mexico
and Canada, and how the LDS

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church compartmentalized
information so that the practice

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could continue.
Now, if you ever wondered how

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the LDS Church was involved in
post manifesto plural marriage,

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stick around and get ready to
have all your preconceived

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notions shattered.
And that's next on this episode

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of the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse.

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To become and raise men and
women of virtue and character is

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a Herculean task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com.
Go to the bottom of the page,

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search out the blog post, and
order your copy today.

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I can bear personal testimony
from personal experience that

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this is an invaluable tool to
help you raise men and women of

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virtue and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Michael back for round two.

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Round two, round three.
We'll see how many of you get

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down.
You you know what, I I was

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thinking about this last last
night.

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These are, I think so important
because I think fundamentalism

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stands at a funny place where if
we're not careful, we could

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start losing some of our own
history just due to time and

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distance.
And so I I feel like these are

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super important because this
gives us A-frame of reference,

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right.
We certainly share history with

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the LDS Church on a lot of
things, right?

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We share it on, you know, like
the Willie Martin Handcart

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Company.
But really, fundamentalism has

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its own unique history.
Once that split starts, and I

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feel like like we really need
to, to make sure that we're

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preserving some of that.
So I I really do feel like this

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is invaluable and important
stuff and I'm I'm thankful for

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you and for the the the time you
take in putting this together.

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Thank you.
I certainly appreciate that.

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And I think any group of people
is pretty much in constant

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danger of losing their history
if they're not careful.

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And we can see parallels in our
more ancient history, you know,

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with our ancestors and looking
at the Book of Mormon, you know

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Levi and and his colony leaving
Jerusalem and they were told to

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go back and get your history
you.

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Know.
And it turned out to be their

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family history, not just the Old
Testament as was currently

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written up to that point.
And it had prophets like Zenoch,

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Zenos, and and others who were
probably either Manasseh or

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Ephraim from those tribes
instead of from Judah.

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And they weren't Levites or what
have you.

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And the Jews didn't preserve the
words of those prophets that

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were in this family line of
Lehigh somewhere or someone in

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their family took down the words
of those prophets.

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And it would have been
absolutely lost if if the Lord

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hadn't told them to go back and
get that family history, which

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is we.
We can, we can see what could

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happen to us if we were
negligent in in looking at our

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own history and keeping it.
Absolutely, absolutely.

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Well, good stuff.
So we left off last time right

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after the manifesto has been
published.

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We're kind of we were kind of
getting some of the feelings of

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of some of those brethren that
were in the 12 about what this

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meant.
And really the overarching idea

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was once this manifesto was was
published, it seems like

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everybody was on the same page
of music here that we're just

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going to let stuff blow over.
We're going to continue to

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practice this and then as soon
as the federal government's off

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our back, we'll go ahead and we
will, we'll start this again

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outright for everybody.
Pretty much.

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I'd like to recap a little bit.
But before we do that, yeah, I

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would say my observation from
that time period right around

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the time of the manifesto is it
seems very heavily that Wilford

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Woodruff is definitely the most
stressed out out of anyone,

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understandably so.
George Q Cannon comes out being

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very political, but as far as
the way he words things, but he

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is definitely not in favor of
the manifesto, right?

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And he is only supporting it and
carrying it through because

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President Woodruff wants to
shove it through essentially,

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and make that concession.
And yeah, let's just go back to

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some of the context really
quick.

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You know, the Cliff Notes.
So around February of 1887,

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George Buchanan writes in his
journal that public clamor

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demands and will not be
satisfied with anything less

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than a complete cessation of
plural marriages and a

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renunciation of that practice by
us.

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We are told that public opinion
is Chris.

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It is crystallized in regard to
Mormonism.

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If it is, it is plain to be seen
from every expression made upon

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the subject that nothing less
than the complete destruction of

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our system of plural marriages
will appease the popular demand.

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We have decided that we cannot
do anything more than we have

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done towards consolidating
public opinion upon this

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question.
And whatever may be the results

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to us and to the people, we must
trust to the Lord to sustain and

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deliver us.
So that was the way he felt

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about it.
Shortly after that you had the

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Edmonds Tucker Act, which
amended and increased the the

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penalties of the Edmonds Tucker
Bill.

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In November of 1887 we see
Joseph F Smith goes to live with

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John Wooley for a while and in
December of 1888 we see a

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government sanctioned or written
document makes its way to church

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offices and Wilford Woodruff
calls a meeting of the members

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of the Quorum of the 12.
Now there was no First

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Presidency at this point because
John Taylor had died and they

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had not reconvened The First
Presidency and nine of the 12

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were present, including Wilford
Woodruff.

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And he presents this government
sent document and it is

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unanimously rejected by every
single one of the members of the

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of the Quorum.
And Wilford Woodruff says, had

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we yielded to that document,
every man of us would have been

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under condemnation before God.
The Lord will never give a

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revelation to abandon plural
marriage.

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It's so crazy that they go from
from the Lord will never give a

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revelation banning plural
marriage to just a few, a few

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months later essentially that
hey, here, here comes the

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manifesto.
Yeah, we're dealing.

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So that was December of 1888.
So yeah, you're dealing with

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almost two years, almost a full
2 years till September of 1890.

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And the pressure gets crazy.
It's it's a it just gets hotter

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and hotter and hotter.
But in addition to that meeting

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where it was unanimously
rejected by those present, there

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was another meeting held.
And I want to find where that

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is.
Let's see if I can find that.

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October 2nd, 1889, there's
another meeting of the 12 and

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they were, they were discussing
the recent arrest of Hans

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Jesperson.
Around that time period we

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talked about, right.
Hans Jesperson and Matthias

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Calley both had taken plural
lives and it got out that they

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were doing that because the
previous policy had been over

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the last few years, even before
the manifesto was given.

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That if we don't want to be
caught or, you know, legally

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with anything going on right
now, if you are going to enter

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into the principal, you're going
to do it in Mexico and you were

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going to stay there, right?
Right.

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And so they're discussing this
policy in a meeting and Wilfred

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Woodruff on October 2nd, 1889 is
essentially saying really we

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need to only be doing this in
Canada or Mexico.

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We just got caught with with
Hans Jesperson and John W Taylor

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says in that meeting, this is
something I never expected to

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hear discussed in the slide.
I have understood it was policy

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for the brethren to take wives
outside the United States.

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You could not publish that you
would not give your consent that

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plural marriages should be
consummated and at the same time

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have the marriages consummated
in Canada or Mexico.

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I think it would be best policy
to let the matter rest without

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saying anything about it,
because if plural marriages are

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solemnized, it will soon be
known and we will be considered

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insincere.
I feel to have faith in the Lord

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and that He will bring something
about for our deliverance.

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If we publish anything on this
matter, it will be impossible

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for us or the elders to fully
explain to the Saints, and much

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confusion will ensue.
So he brings that up because

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Lorenzo Snow wanted to make a
public announcement that don't

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worry, we're not doing this in
America, we're just doing it in

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Mexico or Canada, right?
And I was like, no, let's say

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nothing whatsoever about this
because either we're, we're just

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not going to be able to explain
anything that will our

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motivations are behind this,
right?

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In any case, the reason I bring
that up again this meeting was

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also because I neglected to
mention that this is the very

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first meeting John W Taylor
presents the 1886 revelation to

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the form of the 12 according to
research that D Michael Quinn

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did on a book that he was
writing about John Wooley.

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So that's October 2nd, 1889.
And then the next time you have

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John W Taylor mentioning the
1886 revelation is right after

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Wolford Woodruff announces to
the 12 that they're going to

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issue a manifesto.
And in that, in that meeting in

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particular, John Taylor didn't
just bring up the 1886

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revelation, He also brought up
Wilford Woodruff's 1889

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revelation, which he had had
after, you know, this October

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2nd, 1889 meeting.
And they were promised to that

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the Lord would take care of them
if they did not make, if the

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priesthood did not make any
further concessions to their

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enemies.
Right.

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Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, I find it interesting

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that John, John W Taylor's idea
is just don't say anything,

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right.
Don't, don't come out and say

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we're doing it and don't say
that we're not doing it.

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Just don't say anything at all.
Violence is golden in this.

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No.
OK, the OK, the natural man in

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me, when you start talking about
ceilings down in Mexico, you

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know plural ceilings, I would
have been the guy that would

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have been like so why don't we
just buy Baja, right.

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Let's just go out someplace nice
to the coast.

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We get to keep our wives and
also we don't have to deal with

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winter anymore.
I I see that as a win, Win.

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So John Taylor, right as we
discussed last episode, bought

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about 100,000 acres in
Chihuahua, Mexico, in the book

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Kingdom or Nothing by Samuel
Wooley Taylor.

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When writing about that point in
John Taylor's life when he was

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in hiding, he says that there
was also another deal on the

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table that was further South, I
believe towards the coast, the

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Baja Gulf.
Not Baja per SE, not the not the

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peninsula, but towards the other
side of the of the goal where

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there was 1,000,000 acres for
sale, so 10 times the land,

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00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,320
right?
It should have took that, should

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have took that.
I just signed up for that in a

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heartbeat.
I would have too.

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00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,640
The one of the issues was that
was kind of where some of the

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Mexican, Indian reservations
were, I guess whatever whatever

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the equivalent was.
And there was some concern that

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pouring white settlers onto
Indian land down there would

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00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,200
have been a cause for concern to
everyone.

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00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:31,240
And I don't know if that was a
right or wrong move.

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I'm just throwing that out
there.

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Because it's interesting that
could have been.

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00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,560
I'm just saying this sounds a
lot more fun to be celebrating,

227
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:44,520
you know, Christmas in Baja with
your entire family then, then.

228
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,400
And part of that could be it's
like snowing right now.

229
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,360
And so, yeah, disappear too.
Yeah, I I might be looking

230
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,600
outside going.
We may have screwed the pooch on

231
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,200
this one, Michael.
We should have took Baja.

232
00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,040
Yeah, a part of me agrees.
I kind of.

233
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,240
I mean, I like the mountains,
but Mexico's got mountains.

234
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,360
So I could probably live
somewhere warm as long as it had

235
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,440
mountains.
But I don't know what a million

236
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,960
acres looks like as far as like
for context, if I were to see

237
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,680
that like overlapped on a map,
like, how, how does that relate

238
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,240
to the size of the state of
Texas?

239
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,920
I don't know how big that you
know, but Samuel Wooley Taylor's

240
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,440
insinuated at that point,
1,000,000 acres would have

241
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,800
easily held every single member
of the Church at that point.

242
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,280
I'm fighting off feelings of
getting gypped right at the

243
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,360
moment.
I'm sorry, dude.

244
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,000
No.
No, I no, I it it's just an

245
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,720
interesting thought, right?
Like boy, it it it probably

246
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,240
wasn't a stretch to think that
they were probably thinking

247
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,680
about it a little bit, right?
At least send everything.

248
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:55,560
Down there another another one
of the guys that brought the

249
00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:02,360
deal I think was was it Sam
Samuel Brennan or the guy that

250
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:08,280
was the guy that led the that
ship voyage to San Francisco?

251
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:11,800
I know who you're talking about,
yeah.

252
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,200
Yeah, during during the Gold
Rush and the Mormon Battalion

253
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,800
era, you know, and he left the
church and he found John Taylor

254
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,480
by letter, you know, or
whatever.

255
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,520
And he was living down in Mexico
and he offered that deal to to

256
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,840
John Taylor.
And so that John Taylor also

257
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,760
might have felt maybe this is
too good to be true to in order

258
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,760
to pursue it.
In any case, that's what I

259
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,640
remember from the deal.
Gotcha.

260
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:43,520
All right, so right before the
manifesto, we have a test.

261
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:48,160
The test of the
constitutionality of the Edmonds

262
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:55,000
Tucker Act was challenged, and
in May of 1890, the Supreme

263
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,720
Court ruled that it was
constitutional, which officially

264
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,120
disenfranchised and
disincorporated the LDS Church.

265
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:09,160
And then August 30th, the
Brethren receive a notice that

266
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:14,280
there will be an attempt to
seize the Saint George, Logan

267
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,359
and Manti temples in August
30th, 1890.

268
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,720
So we see the context.
It's written on the walls.

269
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,760
What happens here?
Yeah, it was this thing was not

270
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,880
created in the in a vacuum.
It did not just suddenly happen.

271
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,320
So I contest, you know, I
contest the the narrative that

272
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:38,960
God just revealed to Wilford
Woodruff.

273
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:46,040
This Do you need to to do this?
And as we discussed earlier, I

274
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,600
think it's really a free agency
thing.

275
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,360
Like I've told you my will, my
word concerning this thing.

276
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,040
Nevertheless it is given unto
you and I can't, I can't stop

277
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:54,280
you.
Right.

278
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,800
I'll show you what will happen
if you do and you don't, but

279
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,440
that's that's what the Lord, I
think that was the deal that the

280
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,600
Lord gave to Wilford Woodruff,
and Wilford Woodruff made a

281
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:07,720
choice.
And we see the reaction in Psalm

282
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,520
the 12, as you were saying, you
know, for the most part, it's

283
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,440
pretty unanimous that they
didn't consider this to be a

284
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,640
revelation.
Afterwards, you know, Mariner

285
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,600
Merrill wrote that this is, it
was deemed more important to

286
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,360
keep the temples and the work
for the dead alive than plural

287
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:27,160
marriage for the present.
That's a direct quote.

288
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:34,920
And Hebert J Grant, in fact,
even said, I feel that this is

289
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,120
merely a public announcement to
the course which we already

290
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:42,480
decided in our private councils.
And yet I believe that greater

291
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,720
troubles will arise because of
our course in announcing this

292
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:54,480
policy and then in the meeting
in August 20th, 1891, Mariner

293
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,080
Merrill says point blank in his
journal.

294
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,400
I don't believe the Revel.
The manifesto is a revelation

295
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:05,320
from God and we start to see not
a quick turn around.

296
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,520
There's pretty much silence
right after the manifesto,

297
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,640
besides the fact that the
Supreme Court and others in the

298
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,560
Territory government basically
started asking members of the

299
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,120
church, do you really intend to
stick by this?

300
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:28,120
Yeah, yeah.
Let me ask you this question

301
00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:31,520
real quick.
Did Wilford Woodruff believe it

302
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,640
was a revelation?
That's a tricky one for me to

303
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,000
answer, because by a year later
he's saying that the Lord

304
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,040
revealed to me to do this, and I
have a hard time with that

305
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,280
because I I know the Lord
revealed to him in 1889 not to

306
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,600
do this right?
And so how?

307
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,640
And I like what John W Taylor
said when he was first told of

308
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,840
the manifesto.
My first thought was to say,

309
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,320
damn it, you know, how is how is
God?

310
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,440
Is God like a child, that he can
change his mind, you know, and

311
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,560
he doesn't?
And he didn't believe that.

312
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,400
It was a rhetorical question.
And so I'm led to think the same

313
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:10,800
thing.
I know that God couldn't change

314
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,880
his mind after giving the 1886
and 1889 revelation.

315
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,200
So what is the true situation if
God's not changing his mind?

316
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,600
It has to be.
Something similar to Joseph

317
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:28,200
Smith being led to ask the Lord
three times about giving the the

318
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,840
Lehigh manuscript to Martin
Harris and his wife, right?

319
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,040
Right and.
There's been other examples of

320
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,520
this principle.
You know, and here's the thing,

321
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,800
we see this repeating today,
right?

322
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,920
Let's go back to the 2015
announcement that the LDS Church

323
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,160
wasn't going to allow children
of gay couples to be baptized.

324
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,960
Now, the church got a lot of
heat for that.

325
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,880
I tended to kind of agree with
the church, right?

326
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:05,200
That, hey, we don't want to be
causing divisions inside of even

327
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,400
though we don't recognize them
as legitimate families, right?

328
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,760
Yeah, as in the kids.
We don't want to be making a kid

329
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,880
disavow his parents until that
kids 18 and can make that

330
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,640
decision.
But Russell M Nelson came out

331
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,920
and said, well that was that was
a revelation from God and then a

332
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,440
few short years later reverses
it.

333
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,240
Right.
So these patterns don't just go

334
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,320
away Michael.
They continue to crop up time

335
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:41,080
and again when it suits the
leadership's political leanings,

336
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,880
I guess.
And and those are or public

337
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,360
outcry or public opinion.
So yeah, I I find that

338
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,440
fascinating that that this is
the first time we see that kind

339
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,280
of capitulation.
Maybe assigning something as a

340
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,920
revelation that may not be that
may be more of a policy and then

341
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,880
trying to reverse it.
Yeah, I I definitely don't want

342
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,880
to cast any blame on President
Woodruff, though, for this.

343
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,840
I think he was a very valiant
man, and we're going to see the

344
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:16,240
evidence that he, he didn't
believe the manifesto was a

345
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,760
revelation abolishing plural
marriage.

346
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,360
You would say that the Lord, the
Lord told me to issue the

347
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:23,760
manifesto.
That is a different thing than

348
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,000
saying the Lord is taking away
plural marriage.

349
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,040
Well, that's that's a good point
too.

350
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,480
And and I'm not trying to throw
Wilford under the bus.

351
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,800
What I am trying to show though
is that there are consequences

352
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:41,880
to to to capitulation.
And one of those consequences

353
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,560
seems to be that taking place in
the in the Mother Church, over

354
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,720
and over and over.
Oh sure.

355
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,360
Or in the name, the name
changing or the rebranding that

356
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:54,520
the church is going through,
which I never thought I would

357
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,880
see in my day.
You know, it's to me, it's

358
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,280
reminiscent of the the the 1980s
with the reorganized church

359
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,480
turning into the community of
Christ.

360
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,400
And so we've disavowed the the
name Mormon for.

361
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:10,760
Right.
And it's.

362
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,680
I can't understand.
I mean, I understand the

363
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,480
emphasis on Christ, don't get me
wrong.

364
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,800
But I've never sought this
received validation from others

365
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:26,440
regarding how my testimony is.
My personal testimony is no, You

366
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:27,960
know, you can't be an effective
missionary.

367
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,360
You send out however many
hundreds of thousands young men

368
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,240
and women out there to preach
the gospel and all nations in

369
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,000
the world, and they're not going
to do good if they're seeking

370
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,000
validation for a label.
Yeah.

371
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,280
Instead of proclaiming that no
this is my testimony and I don't

372
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,360
care if you call me a Mormon or
you know sure I am a Mormon but

373
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:53,120
I'm my testimony isn't is in
Jesus Christ and you don't need

374
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:55,920
to go so far as to say that you
guess what Christians you are

375
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,440
right we don't believe in the
same Jesus because I believe

376
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,760
that my Jesus Christ wasn't
celibate and you know whatever

377
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,000
you want to go to you know but
and they're the ones that like

378
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,760
to twist that but it's actually
it's funny because it's true

379
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,680
because but I wouldn't want to
believe in the the Christ of the

380
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,200
creeds you know I mean.
No, no, I I've.

381
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,880
I said for a long time before I
ever left the church.

382
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,520
You you don't want to call us a
Christian.

383
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,600
That's OK.
Go down to the deep, Deep South

384
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,400
and see if you want that
moniker.

385
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,320
Sure.
I'm fine being a Mormon.

386
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,320
I'm me.
Too.

387
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:43,440
So, all right, so so Wilford's
went ahead.

388
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,560
He's published this.
What happens next?

389
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:55,480
We see in September of 1891.
So a full year later, George Q

390
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,880
Cannon gives a letter to John
Henry Smith.

391
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,560
Now, do you remember who John
Henry Smith is?

392
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,600
Oh.
No refresh my memory.

393
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,400
So John Henry Smith is the son
of George A Smith, which was

394
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:14,000
first cousins with Joseph and
Hiram, son of John Smith who was

395
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,640
brothers to Joseph Smith senior,
right?

396
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,480
Right.
And John Henry Smith is also the

397
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,560
father of future president of
the Church, George Albert Smith,

398
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:34,440
and he is very important in the
next few years.

399
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,560
And he is one of the brethren
who was instrumental in getting

400
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,400
Joseph Musser into the principal
later, if you recall that.

401
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:48,120
Yep, I do recall that now.
So he gets a he gets a letter

402
00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:54,360
from George Q Cannon basically
saying you have authority to

403
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:01,720
perform ceilings for any couples
who, through through poverty or

404
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,160
any other impediment, are
prevented from going to the

405
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,760
temple.
Oh, through poverty.

406
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:14,360
So there's a lot of things that
go on, like there's a a lot of

407
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:22,200
who else was it patriarch
Alexander F McDonald and George

408
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,960
Teasdale down in Mexico.
They also begin getting letters

409
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:28,360
of recommends from George
Buchanan, basically with similar

410
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:31,760
language.
Like in a week or two, this

411
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,760
brother is going to come down
with his family.

412
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,480
Give them all that you can you
know or take care of them to the

413
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,520
best of your ability.
You know, coded language or

414
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:42,880
whatever.
Basically saying you were

415
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,960
authorized to perform these
ceremonies.

416
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,240
I wanna go back to something
though.

417
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:56,600
You said I I found that that
thing about despite any of their

418
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,160
challenges, whether they be too
poor to go to the temple or

419
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,120
something like that.
What's he referring to there?

420
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,240
I was gonna say well, so or
other impediment.

421
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,880
I was gonna say you're it's too
soon to be taking, you know,

422
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:18,080
your plural life to be into the
temple to to have this dealt

423
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,760
with.
So therefore we're giving you

424
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,760
this authority to kind of
oversee those matters

425
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,320
indiscretion.
I got.

426
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:27,840
You what?
What?

427
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,440
What were you thinking?
Well, that thing where it said

428
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,080
poverty, I'm, I'm, I'm like, are
they saying that if someone

429
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,160
can't pay their tithing and they
can't go through the temple, I'm

430
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,360
wondering what that poverty
remark was.

431
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,600
This is what it says.
I can read the whole thing if

432
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,480
you want, no?
No, that's good.

433
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,040
I was just curious.
Any case, so yeah, that happens.

434
00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,760
Wilford Woodruff is brought to
testify in October 19th, 1891 to

435
00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:04,760
asking them, like I said, point
blank, you know, are you going

436
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,200
to live up to your end of the
bargain?

437
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,200
And they asked him, quote, do
you understand that the

438
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,000
manifesto applies to the
cohabitation of men and women in

439
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,480
plural marriage where it already
exists?

440
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,760
And he answered, I could not see
how it could be otherwise.

441
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,640
Rough, right?
Yeah.

442
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,280
And this is the part that's the
most heartbreaking, right?

443
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,240
It's one thing to discontinue
the practice.

444
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,640
It's another thing to be like,
OK, now you got to pick a wife

445
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:39,640
and just pick that one and you
know that's what it's going to

446
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,360
take to come into order, so to
speak.

447
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,960
Well, he tells the rest of the
Quorum of the 12 that he said

448
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,800
that under duress later.
OK Abraham H Cannon records in

449
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,640
his journal that I attended my
council meeting.

450
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,840
The matter of the Manifesto and
the extent of its meaning was

451
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,200
then discussed.
So they're having this

452
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,960
discussion, right?
And President Woodruff said that

453
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,160
he was placed in such a position
on the witness stand that he

454
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,880
could not answer other than he
did.

455
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,480
Yeah, any man who deserts,
neglects, neglects his wives or

456
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,560
children because of the
Manifesto should be handled for

457
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,760
his fellowship.
So you're going to be

458
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,040
excommunicator or
disfellowshipped if you do not

459
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,760
live with your wives and take
care of your wives and children,

460
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,000
but you're going to go to jail
if you're just caught doing?

461
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,320
It really is kind of the same
choice Eve was presented.

462
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,640
Adam and Eve, I mean it.
It's very much pick one, It's

463
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,520
not gonna.
Yeah, pick one.

464
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,400
There's there's consequences to
both.

465
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,320
Yeah.
So in July of 1892, we see

466
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,040
George Buchanan write a letter
to apostle George Teasdale

467
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,120
authorizing him to do deal with
the plural marriages in Mexico.

468
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,840
And then we move into 1893.
Now, according to the book

469
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:03,280
Family Kingdom written by Samuel
Wooley Taylor, he says that in

470
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:12,520
the year in spring of 19 or
1893, Lauren Wooley told Nettie

471
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,280
or Janet Janet.
Janet Marie Wooley Taylor, now

472
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,440
right married to apostle John W
Taylor, told her a strange tale

473
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,280
of a secret revelation about the
principle.

474
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,800
Lauren said that right next door
on the adjoining farm of the of

475
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,760
John W Wooley, President John
John Taylor was in hiding the

476
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,880
night of September 26th, 1886
when he received a revelation

477
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,200
concerning the principle and set
men apart to continue it

478
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,960
regardless of what the church
might do officially on the

479
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,440
matter.
Lauren said that he was one of

480
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:50,480
the men set apart.
OK, so from almost the get go

481
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:57,120
there starts to be information
leaked that hey, there's ways

482
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:57,880
around.
This.

483
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,840
So yes, you know this is what
would this be seven years later?

484
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,560
Now the source is second hand
late because the book This book

485
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:12,160
was published in 1948, OK and
it's the it's the family

486
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,600
reminiscence of John W Taylor
and the Woolley family and all

487
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,320
the interconnectedness of it.
The funny thing is that Samuel

488
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:20,920
Woolley Taylor is kind of a Jack
Mormon.

489
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,520
So it's.
Like what skin do you have in

490
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,640
the game to be thrown out, you
know this element into the book.

491
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,200
That's kind of where I what I
look at there.

492
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,640
And because he was very nominal,
he was never cut off from the

493
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,680
church, but he was very nominal
in his membership, you know, and

494
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,720
he moved out to California and
he got in a lot of trouble when

495
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,240
he went to BYU as a, you know,
young man.

496
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,720
And he didn't really have a
whole lot to do with with the

497
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,240
church except for he would
occasionally write a few books.

498
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,480
Gotcha, you know, history.
And.

499
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:57,680
But I really like what he has to
say.

500
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,400
And I do believe that his mom
who was cousins to Lauren

501
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,320
Wooley, was probably told that.
And I have no reason to doubt

502
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:05,560
why she would tell him that
either.

503
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:14,800
Now, around this time, Janet
Marie Marie Wooley begins to go

504
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,320
by the name Nettie.
You know, Janet Nettie, you

505
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,760
know, because it's it's your
underground now and you're

506
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,000
hiding.
So they call her basically for

507
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,960
the rest of her life.
Nettie Mae Taylor.

508
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,880
And so I will now refer to her
in the narrative as Nettie

509
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:35,600
Nettie Taylor.
Right.

510
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:46,680
Let's see right after this point
in time, John W Taylor took his

511
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,800
second in his third life.
That's Nellie, Nellie Todd and

512
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,080
and Nettie Taylor to to man tie
to do baptisms for the dead and

513
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,120
they baptized the President of
Mexico by proxy in the Manti

514
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,640
Temple.
John W Taylor apparently felt

515
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:08,360
that that would be instrumental
in opening the doors to to work

516
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,800
amongst the Lamanites from
having help from the other side.

517
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,000
OK.
On the other side of the veil.

518
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,240
So I thought that was
interesting.

519
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:15,440
That's cool.
Yeah, that's.

520
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,640
Cool.
In 1893, you have the dedication

521
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,240
of the Salt Lake Temple now.
And so the government didn't

522
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,560
seize the temples.
And however, we are reaping in

523
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:36,040
the benefits from peace, right.
And there's some interesting

524
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,960
conversation as alluded to in
the book.

525
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,920
But what ends up happening is,
is John W Taylor ends up taking

526
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:54,000
all three of his wife's
dedication and remembering that,

527
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,200
you know, that's a little
controversial because, I mean,

528
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,040
probably no one even knew that
he had two before the manifesto,

529
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:08,760
let alone 3IN any case.
So he takes all three of them

530
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:15,760
there, and I would like to say
his his The system for for

531
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,679
plural marriage was that each
wife had her own home.

532
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:26,199
What do you think about that?
Look, I I think, I think those

533
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,760
kinds of arrangements are going
to be unique to each family,

534
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,000
right.
I can tell you from from my

535
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:38,679
standpoint and and Amber my my
first wife feels this way as

536
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:42,600
well is that if we can get
everybody under one roof, at

537
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,520
least for us, right.
I'm not saying this is a hard

538
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,080
and fast rule by any stretch.
Everyone's got to figure this

539
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,600
out on their own.
But for us it will only help to

540
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,520
foster a a cohesive family
culture.

541
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,960
Now I know that that's not
always possible.

542
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,240
I I know that that doesn't work
for some people.

543
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:04,960
And so I I'm kind of like, you
got to do what you got to do to

544
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,280
make peace and harmony inside
the family and whatever that

545
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,480
that looks like, I I tend to
stay out of that.

546
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,000
That's none of my business.
No, it's I I just wanted to

547
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,800
flesh that out a little bit.
No, I think you're absolutely

548
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,280
right.
You know, Brigham Young had most

549
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,200
of his wives in one home, you
know, the lion house and but

550
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,640
John Taylor had Taylor Rowe
which was a row of nine houses

551
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,040
on the same St. you know, which
that's probably whatever he

552
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,520
wants.
The women in a plural family are

553
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,360
probably going to like that idea
the most, on the same street but

554
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,920
our own house.
That's neat, you know, good

555
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,760
luck, I would say, in modern
times of accomplishing such a

556
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,760
thing.
But I think you're absolutely

557
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,640
right that circumstances change
and are dependent upon the

558
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,760
individuals.
But at this point, you have all

559
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,840
sorts of people, not just John W
Taylor.

560
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,840
You got one wife in one state,
one wife in another state, one

561
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,640
wife in one country, one wife in
another country, right.

562
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,760
He's got one wife in Salt Lake.
He's got one wife in Canada, and

563
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,400
he's got Nettie living wherever
she's living at this point.

564
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,280
Now, I'm not entirely sure.
I don't remember, but different

565
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,760
all different places.
And that's the way it starts.

566
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,240
And that was kind of his.
And I don't know if it's right

567
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:31,680
or wrong to say this, but it's
it's kind of like I will provide

568
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,360
this for you.
You will have your own space.

569
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,760
You can be the queen of your own
world, and if you don't want

570
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,360
having to have anything to do
with them, you don't have

571
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,560
anything.
You don't have to have anything

572
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,800
to do with them.
It's kind of the way that it was

573
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,560
approached, right?
And that's definitely not ideal

574
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,640
to choose that.
But I guess no matter what way

575
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,920
you slice it, it's got to be
true, because you can't force

576
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,720
anyone to do it.
No, no, no, no, you can't.

577
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,000
I will say this, I I have a
newfound respect for John W

578
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,360
Taylor taking all three wives to
the dedication.

579
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,680
I the the first.
OK.

580
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,240
This is going to make I, I, I
know this is going to make some

581
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:11,600
people mad.
But when I practice plural

582
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,040
marriage the first time I took
both of my wife's through a

583
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,840
session in the Salt Lake Temple
and yeah.

584
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,240
Oh yeah, I did.
You know I was.

585
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:27,400
I look back at those days and
I'm like, I was, I was like

586
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,720
flirting with disaster all the
time, you know, 'cause that

587
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:36,720
first time, I mean, I was, I
didn't have anywhere to go.

588
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:39,080
I didn't, I didn't know people,
right.

589
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,160
I was kind of out on my own.
So I'm like, well, we'll just

590
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,960
stay in the church and do this
in the church.

591
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,000
And yeah, dude, I would go to
the temple with each wife.

592
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,720
I mean, I I was, yeah.
No, now, now looking back, I'm

593
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:56,000
like, OK, well, maybe I wasn't
so, so much up in the night.

594
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,760
John W pulled it off.
I I'd pulled it off for a little

595
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,560
while.
Most I I think John W had you

596
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,000
beat.
You know, you took the name

597
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,800
Mormon Renegade, but I really
think that he was probably.

598
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,480
He was he was he was.
He's my man.

599
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,360
There's no doubt I'm I'm I'm I'm
slowly developing A and the dude

600
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,560
had a kick ass mustache.
I mean, that stash is rocked

601
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,600
that that thing was was epic.
I mean, it made Magnum Pi look

602
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,400
like a prepubescent teen
mustache dude.

603
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,920
Some people can pull it off and
it's a hard it's a hard thing to

604
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,440
to know when you can.
Absolutely.

605
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,960
I I genuinely prefer I I prefer
wearing a fold beer.

606
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,680
But.
Yeah, yeah, so do I.

607
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,560
But but he pulled it off.
I mean, to his credit, he he

608
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,520
rocked that thing.
He did.

609
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,720
He was, according to his son and
probably through his what you

610
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:51,360
know, son being told what mom
said about it is John W wore the

611
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,880
mustache because otherwise he
felt he would look too young for

612
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,200
leadership.
Gotcha, gotcha.

613
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,760
OK, All right.
I could, I guess I could kind of

614
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,040
see that.
But he, he really was the first

615
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,880
Renegade.
I mean as as I've done just a

616
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,800
little bit of research, I'm
like, oh, I feel a certain

617
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,600
kinship with this man.
This man is is rocking it hard.

618
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,160
Oh yeah, and he is.
And so Nettie was also pregnant

619
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,320
during that during the
dedication with our first child

620
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,880
and and so that kind of adds a
little bit to the to the

621
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,760
conversation too.
She's like, are you serious?

622
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,720
You want me to show up with the
other two looking like this?

623
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,600
Absolutely.
You in a sense, just by the way

624
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,480
he talks, right?
As you've read the few things

625
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,600
that he has said that this is
not a bashful guy, right.

626
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,040
He's going to be kind of in your
face a little bit.

627
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,960
If you are.
If you are someone who thinks

628
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,960
that monogamy should be the
standard within within the the

629
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,000
the Mormon world, he's going to
challenge you on that.

630
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,600
He's going to challenge you by
the things he says and he's

631
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,920
going to challenge you by the
things that he does.

632
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,920
And I find that amazing.
Yep, he is.

633
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,920
And and the wives didn't always,
you know, they had their

634
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,280
struggles too with it, you know.
And with him being so gung ho

635
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,160
about it, by the way, because
and you can probably see this

636
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,960
with at least most ladies as you
want comfort and stability and

637
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,520
when you got your husband rocked
in the boat like he is, it's

638
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:34,720
like stop, you know.
Absolutely.

639
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,480
Absolutely.
Yeah, I know he's he's he's a

640
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,200
stud.
I mean, I I hope I get to do

641
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,680
podcast from the other side
because I really want to talk to

642
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,480
John Taylor.
I want to be like, all right,

643
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,680
dude, pull up Billy up to this
microphone.

644
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,520
We got some things to talk
about, so.

645
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,040
All right, so going forward, at
least in the case of Nettie

646
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:03,320
Woolley, right?
She seems to have enough

647
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,120
spiritual experiences to kind of
lead her through the trials.

648
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,440
And Samuel, in recalling his
life and the life of his father,

649
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,400
doesn't mention the other wives
too much.

650
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,360
And it's understandable that's
not the line he comes through.

651
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:24,680
But in 1893, Nettie has a dream
where she she is shown the 4th

652
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,320
wife that John will marry.
Right.

653
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,200
And they do not meet her for
another eight years, but she has

654
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,480
the dream eight years before
they meet.

655
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,760
OK.
That John W will marry another

656
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,360
wife.
OK, at least one.

657
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,960
Right.
Later that spring their first

658
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,120
child was born and I believe
they named him Joseph Bruce, you

659
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:55,080
know named him after the prophet
Joseph Smith and humor he.

660
00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:02,280
So John W Taylor was not able to
be there for the birth, and they

661
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,920
were he was planning to be.
But because she was on the

662
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,240
underground, they were moving
her from from somewhere in Utah

663
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:15,000
to Wyoming.
And they had bought a ranch and

664
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,760
it was her idea.
And she just wanted to be out

665
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,440
there in the country and she
just wanted to be away from the

666
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,920
possibility of being caught and
raise her family out there.

667
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,840
And he was called to do some
church business in Canada and

668
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,640
was not able to make it.
And she also had it.

669
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,400
She had the baby on route in the
wagon to the property in

670
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:44,360
Wyoming.
And in any case, they get to the

671
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:49,560
property and he meets his son,
you know, for the first time,

672
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,000
you know.
And and he says that he's the

673
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,280
spitting image of the Prophet
Joseph Smith.

674
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:01,040
That's awesome.
Which obviously shows you that

675
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,240
John W Taylor had some
experience knowing what Joseph

676
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:08,240
Smith looked like.
Although I don't know, I mean

677
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,520
how you can say a baby would
look like that, but I, you know,

678
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,040
I can.
But I also can see.

679
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:23,880
In any case, that's kind of fun.
Let's see, on the heels of all

680
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,880
that, in February and March, the
temple law case comes around.

681
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,400
Do you know about that?
Go ahead and fill me in.

682
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:43,200
The Temple Law case was
controversy between essentially

683
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:50,640
who was going to be recognized
as the legal successor to the

684
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,640
church that Joseph Smith started
in in New York, right.

685
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,640
And so at this point you have
the the reorganized church, you

686
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:03,240
have the Temple Law church and
you have the church in Utah and

687
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,720
people are brought, you know,
into court and to testify and

688
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:11,720
we're they, you know, you're
telling the stories and you're

689
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:13,960
laying your claims before the
people and all that.

690
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,920
But but hold on one second.
The the I don't want to say

691
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:23,000
ownership of the church, but the
the the legal church doesn't

692
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,680
follow Brigham Young
necessarily.

693
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:30,760
From New York to Utah, No.
No, it doesn't.

694
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,480
Especially not after the
government disincorporated.

695
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,640
OK, that's, yeah, that's a good
point.

696
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,760
I guess the government would
have have dissolved that and

697
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,800
then essentially a new church
had to come up.

698
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,080
So the first church was
incorporated as Church of

699
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,200
Christ.
And then they, Joseph Smith, did

700
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,920
reincorporate another church
organization in Missouri called

701
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,240
the Church of the Latter Day
Saints, and then that evolved

702
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,240
into the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter Day Saints by

703
00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:03,800
revelation.
That was what the Lord wanted

704
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:09,520
him to call it after that point.
But like, like we said, the

705
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,280
government kind of destroyed
that one.

706
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:19,040
And on the books in this ruling,
the federal government ruled

707
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:24,720
that the reorganized church was
the legal successor to Joseph

708
00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:27,440
Smith's real restoration.
It did.

709
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:28,800
It did.
Wow.

710
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,080
Yeah, so we got screwed over on
that one, but whatever.

711
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:38,480
In any case, I bring it up
because Lorenzo Snow testified

712
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,320
and made an observation
regarding polygamy being against

713
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,240
the rules of the Church in the
days of Joseph Smith, when the

714
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:46,720
doctrine was not yet revealed
publicly.

715
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:53,200
He noted that those married
polygamously before 1843, quote,

716
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,840
would have violated the laws of
the Church and been guilt guilty

717
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:02,000
of adultery and would have meet.
And he immediately therefore

718
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:06,640
conceded that Joseph Smith
married Eliza R Snow prior to

719
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,200
the giving of the 1843
revelation, which is DNC 132.

720
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,680
Right?
And following up on the logical

721
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,880
consequences of such a
testimony, the attorney asked

722
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,280
and what sort of position that
put Joseph Smith Junior and

723
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,120
Eliza R Snow in and President
Snow responded.

724
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,320
It put them in a first rate
splendid condition for time and

725
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,920
eternity.
Nice.

726
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,680
Nice.
So you have, you have that

727
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,400
admission that yes, this was not
against the rules of the Church,

728
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,480
but it was, it was a revelation
from God because it was not yet

729
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,840
revealed.
But it sets the framework for

730
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,080
the idea that the IT can be
underground, right?

731
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:48,440
Yeah, because that way it was
practiced by Joseph Smith.

732
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,400
And when asked by the attorney
what position does it put Joseph

733
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:57,520
in and and and Lorenzo Snow's
sister Eliza puts him in a first

734
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,480
rate, splendid condition for
time and eternity.

735
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:11,200
I love it.
Let's see, in June of 1894, on a

736
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,840
trip to Mexico, Brigham Young
Junior and John Henry Smith go

737
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:16,320
down.
They go down there and they

738
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,280
perform at least five plural
marriages.

739
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,640
And one of them was the the
stake high Councilman or a a

740
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:31,400
Stake high, a stake stake high
Councilman who went down there

741
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,840
to get a wife.
And he later wrote, When I took

742
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,760
my second wife, I had a letter
signed by President Woodruff

743
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,600
himself and a personal letter
from President George Q Cannon.

744
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,120
Wow.
Authorizing that.

745
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,840
And so up to that point, stuff's
going down low key in Mexico.

746
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,000
It's not super often from what I
can tell.

747
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,640
Like I said, George Teasdale
performed 15-O marriages from

748
00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:00,600
1893 to 95, and Brigham Young
Junior and John Henry Smith do

749
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,680
five, and in May and June of
1894.

750
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,200
The first instance of a plural
marriage being done back in the

751
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:13,280
state of Utah that I'm aware of
is in July of 1894.

752
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,360
So a good four years after the
manifesto.

753
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,480
Practically.
And do you want to venture any

754
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,520
guess who does it?
Is it my boy John W?

755
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,440
No, it's not.
And unfortunately we'll know.

756
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,720
I'll make note of this.
Now the interesting thing is,

757
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:36,840
despite how vocal he was
publicly and privately, he

758
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:41,720
actually performed far less post
manifesto plural marriages than

759
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:45,920
most of the others himself.
He performed them.

760
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:50,880
He performed less ceremonies,
but he highly encouraged others.

761
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,920
Was it Wilford?
It was not.

762
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,960
It was Mariner Merrill, the same
guy writing in his journal.

763
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:59,640
I did not believe.
OK.

764
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,440
There comes Manifesto is a
revelation from God.

765
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,520
He's acting as president of the
Logan Temple and he goes to

766
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:12,960
Wilfred Woodruff alone and talks
with him and got a recommend

767
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:17,720
from George Buchanan on behalf
of his daughter because he has a

768
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:21,040
daughter who is interested in
entering into another man's

769
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,440
family.
And so he seals his daughter in

770
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,480
the Logan Temple as a plural
wife on July 16th.

771
00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:43,760
OK, let's see.
In 1895, February 15th, George

772
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,080
Buchanan takes another wife.
And this is an interesting

773
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,960
situation because it's not.
No ceiling is done.

774
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,320
And this is going to fly in the
face of a lot of tradition.

775
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,360
And I guess I'm not here to
argue whether it's right or

776
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:05,760
wrong so much, but what they did
was enter into a solemn covenant

777
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,640
with each other without no any
other officiator.

778
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,600
Now, now the the reason I fist
pump right there is because

779
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:23,120
that's how the first time around
I I did my my plural family.

780
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:26,520
Sure.
And I've had people say where

781
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:31,600
where, where is the scriptural?
There's some stuff pointed to by

782
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:42,120
by, oh, Ogden Kraut and as well,
what's his name the historian

783
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:47,520
for the church for a while.
Michael Quinn, he he points to

784
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,280
it.
Where where can someone find

785
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,400
that solemn covenant thing?
Do you?

786
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,200
What record is that?
Well, I'll I was about to read

787
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,680
the entry from George Q Cannon's
own journal, which I got a copy

788
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,600
of excerpts of his journal and
his son Abraham H Cannon's

789
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,560
journal that was published by
Stephen Murphy.

790
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,040
Who was?
Excommunicated from the AUB

791
00:51:09,240 --> 00:51:12,320
perfect.
And but also there is a book

792
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:20,680
also called Solemn Covenant by B
Harman Cardi and there is a

793
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:26,600
paper which was published in
dialogue OK that you're

794
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,760
referring to I think which is
called plural marriages between

795
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,760
1890 and 19 O four with LDS
church authority.

796
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:38,360
OK perfect.
It's like where he goes over a

797
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:43,200
ton of the sanctioned plural
marriages done, you know, in

798
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,920
this time period where, and I
have a copy of that, and it is

799
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,360
where a lot of my research comes
from.

800
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,400
Awesome.
I just need to know where to

801
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:56,320
point some listeners to because
I I think they were politely

802
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,640
telling me I was full of it.
Sure.

803
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:04,240
So George Q Cannon writes in his
journal, had an interview with

804
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:08,080
Sister Amelia Frost.
We George Q Cannon and Amelia

805
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,640
Frost, known as Amelia Frost
Madsen, members of the Church of

806
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,880
Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints and believers in the

807
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,560
doctrine of of marriage for
eternity being prevented by the

808
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,560
laws of the land from carrying
out our purpose while we are

809
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,640
both alive.
Take this method of making known

810
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,240
our wishes concerning the
relations we desire established

811
00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:31,800
between us for eternity, so that
in the event of the demise of

812
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,800
one or both of us, our wishes
may be carried out by our

813
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,400
representatives or heirs.
The said.

814
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,400
Amelia Frost has expressed the
desire to be united to the

815
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,760
Senate George Q Cannon as his
wife for eternity.

816
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,000
And the said George Q.
Cannon, being desirous that she

817
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,240
should be sealed to him as a
wife for eternity, mutually

818
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:53,720
covenant and agree to be thus
married for eternity by the

819
00:52:53,720 --> 00:52:56,800
authority of the Holy Priesthood
through the sealing ordinance

820
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,800
which the Lord has revealed.
The object of this paper is to

821
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,000
enjoin upon our representatives
or heirs, to take the necessary

822
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,760
steps to have this marriage for
eternity solemnized in one of

823
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,360
the temples.
So where do you fall on that,

824
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,360
Michael?
Do you feel like that that's a

825
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,320
valid thing, I mean?
I think it's.

826
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,440
I think it certainly is if you
if it's if the situation was

827
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,920
well, I don't really foresee
myself living in a situation

828
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:28,680
where I wasn't going to live
with her as my wife.

829
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,320
And I was going to say if you're
not going to live with her and

830
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,640
act as husband and wife, then
sure, then absolutely this is

831
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,680
going to be yeah maybe you're
just making known to your

832
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,000
posterity you want this done.
Easy peasy.

833
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,000
But if the Lord told me that
that was the way to do it, I

834
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,400
have no issue with taking,
taking her as an actual wife and

835
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,640
living with her as a wife
raising children.

836
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:58,840
I now I would like to say
though, you know, I'm very

837
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:03,560
cautious when I do anything
that's against standard protocol

838
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,360
myself or when when I
contemplate doing things that

839
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,160
are normally against standard
protocol.

840
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:13,040
I would never like to abuse
things that are revealed in a

841
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:17,920
certain pattern, but I could
understand that this could be

842
00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:24,800
done as a prelude to a more
ideal circumstance.

843
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,240
I I agree with you
wholeheartedly.

844
00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:33,120
I I look, look, I was.
I was so careful when tried to

845
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,320
be as careful as I could be when
I entered it.

846
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:44,880
The principal the first time.
But even back in 2007, right,

847
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,320
2008 when I when I entered this
thing, it wasn't like

848
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,160
fundamentalists are today.
I mean, there's been radical

849
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,440
change in that short time
period.

850
00:54:56,040 --> 00:55:02,080
Today I would say if you want to
find someone with proper

851
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,640
authority to steal you, that's
way easier.

852
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:11,160
Now, if you're some convert that
is living in, you know,

853
00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:14,800
Philadelphia, someplace like
that where there's not a lot of

854
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:19,360
fundies hanging out, right?
I could see where doing that

855
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,680
would be wisdom until someone
with proper priesthood authority

856
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,520
can be located.
I I wouldn't say this is the

857
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,320
ideal.
I wouldn't say that this is

858
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,280
something that you should just
bank on forever necessarily.

859
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,120
You should.
You should at least be in the

860
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,520
mode of trying to find somebody
to come, Celia.

861
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:42,960
But I I feel like it's it's not
out of the pale of Orthodoxy to

862
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,800
live it in that fashion until
you can find that that that

863
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,320
authority.
So as someone who's been

864
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:51,720
endowed, it's interesting
because there's almost more

865
00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:55,960
prohibitions regarding what you
can and can't do in relation to

866
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,280
the a common law type marriage
or solemn covenant.

867
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,240
Because you covenant either in
the Church that you will not

868
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:04,960
have sexual relations with any
person who is not married, you

869
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,520
know, given to you by the holy
priesthood or the Church,

870
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:11,120
depending on if you've been
through a fundamentalist

871
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:15,240
endowment or a church endowment.
Both are limited in scope and

872
00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:21,240
according to the section 132.
It also says interesting things

873
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:25,520
regarding what conditions you
place yourself under depending

874
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,600
on the vows you make when you're
married.

875
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,720
Right.
And so a man and a woman who are

876
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:34,000
married and desire to enter.
You know, a man who's already

877
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:38,400
married desires to take another
wife, but he is not under a vow

878
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,440
that it says that he is
justified.

879
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,920
Meaning if you're not breaking
your your vow to your first

880
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,400
wife, you can take more.
Right.

881
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,040
Yep.
You know, and so that's

882
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,040
completely correct in the sight
of the Lord.

883
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:57,040
But he says if it is not entered
into by these conditions, you

884
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,440
have no promise in the life to
come that it's eternal.

885
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:02,840
Right, right.
Yeah, it it.

886
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,760
And it's interesting that the
Lord brings that up in 132,

887
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:11,120
because he's almost he's almost
planning ahead for these days in

888
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:18,320
some ways.
Yeah, I I think so.

889
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,280
Let's see next on the list in
the history.

890
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:29,280
January 4th, 1896 Utah becomes
the 45th state in the Union.

891
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,800
I'm not going to clap for that.
Look, I'm a very patriotic guy.

892
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,200
I kind of side with some of
those territories who are like,

893
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,600
we don't want to become a state.
I get it.

894
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:43,040
I get it.
I'm not.

895
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,960
I'm not sure that was a great
move necessarily.

896
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,160
Yeah, well, I definitely don't
think it was a great move for

897
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:57,200
the members of the church or the
Mormon people in general, but I

898
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,760
wish I thought I had it written
here, the statistic I mentioned

899
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,760
in the last episode.
But after the state of Utah is

900
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:08,320
admitted into the union, the
percentage of post manifesto

901
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,920
plural marriages skyrockets
because we got what we wanted.

902
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:20,840
Oh, I see.
OK, right after the right after

903
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:26,400
this, you know, John W Taylor
brings Nettie back from Wyoming

904
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,920
or wherever they're at to, and
he buys her a house in

905
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,760
Farmington, UT.
OK.

906
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:36,000
You know, Farmington, UT is Yep.
Oh yeah.

907
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,640
Yeah, up there by lagoon.
Yeah.

908
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:41,960
Do you know, do you know what
county that's in?

909
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,240
That, if I'm not mistaken, is
Davis County.

910
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:48,920
It is Davis County, so remember
that.

911
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:51,360
And.
This is me foreshadowing

912
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,720
something.
Some people just will already

913
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:59,080
know what who's in Davis County
but go up.

914
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,320
Well, no, I wasn't thinking
about that.

915
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,160
That and this that they don't
happen till what?

916
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:08,640
Later, But the Woolley family,
you know John W Woolley, you

917
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:13,960
know, lives in Davis County and
is on the Davis State High

918
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:15,840
Council by the way, at this
point.

919
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:21,560
Let's see, I thought this was
funny.

920
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,960
Around this time period.
I took a little excerpt from

921
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,640
Family Kingdom.
Again, Samuel Woolley Taylor

922
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:34,080
notes that around this time his
grandfather or or his father

923
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,000
began chafing under the new
policies of the Church after the

924
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:42,360
manifesto, and he didn't really
mind what toes he stepped on.

925
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:47,480
And when a new apostle was being
ordained into the quorum 1 by 1

926
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,800
in order of seniority, the
others of the 12 arose to lob

927
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,560
the new members virtues.
And when it came to father's

928
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,320
turn, he said all new babies
look alike to me.

929
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,160
They're red and ugly and they
have to be tended and they do a

930
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,240
lot of bawling.
Wow.

931
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:07,800
Now, I don't know who exactly
he's talking about at that point

932
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,480
in time.
It could have been Mythias

933
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,640
Callie, but I doubt it because
they're good friends at this

934
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:15,560
point.
But on the other hand, I could

935
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:18,680
also see it being a reference to
Abraham Owen Woodruff, who

936
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,720
enters the Quorum of the 12 at
this point, and he looks

937
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,440
remarkably babyface.
And so I can see that being

938
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:29,040
tongue in cheek humor for for
young Owen Woodruff.

939
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,920
But other apostles who get out
of at that point in time are

940
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:38,440
Reed Smoot, Hiram, Max Smith,
George Albert Smith, and Charles

941
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:42,880
Penrose.
And how many of those new ones

942
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:46,040
are are distinctly in the no
polygamy camp?

943
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:58,240
Hiram M Smith seem to be kind of
not necessarily against it, but

944
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,600
definitely not for it.
In the short time he died

945
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,840
pretty, pretty young.
He got replaced.

946
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,320
Charles Penrose was told the
line we're not going to do this

947
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,400
anymore after the Reed Smoot
hearings, right?

948
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,440
Like we're not quite there yet,
aware that the 12 itself start

949
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:19,720
turning against the principal,
but people who do end up being

950
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:21,720
in that position are now
entering into the form of the

951
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:23,640
12.
But on the other hand, Matthias

952
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:28,720
Cowley, Anton H Lund, Manor
Merrill, Owen, Woodruff, Rudder,

953
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:33,680
Clausen, That's five.
John W Taylor.

954
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:41,240
Those are all six very strong
pro polygamy proponents that are

955
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,080
still in the quorum at the least
at this point.

956
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:51,400
Around this time, John W Taylor
makes remarks like Esau sold his

957
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,400
birthright for a mess of pottage
and I will, and it will yet

958
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,240
appear in the history of the
Saints that many have sold their

959
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,040
inheritances for 30 pieces of
silver.

960
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,480
In referring to Judith giving up
the principle of plural

961
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,160
marriage.
In December of 1896, he is

962
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,240
called to organize a mission in
Colorado.

963
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,480
OK.
And so the next few years, he

964
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:19,680
acts as a mission president and
he takes one of his wives with

965
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:25,280
him, which is Nettie or Janet
Woolley, to be mission

966
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:27,160
president's wife in that
mission.

967
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:33,560
Right.
And let's see, we'll talk more

968
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:40,320
about that in a minute.
But I had to bring this up to

969
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:46,760
February 22nd, 1897 Miles P
Romney, which obviously has some

970
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:51,160
in relation to other prominent
Romneys we know, marries his

971
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:54,560
fifth wife, Emily Henrietta.
I ring.

972
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,200
Any relation to, well, it's got
to have relation to.

973
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,400
Yeah, so you got a Romney
marrying his fifth wife and I

974
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:08,720
ring sealed by apostle Heber J
Grant in colonial Juarez,

975
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:15,120
Apostle John Henry Smith
basically commissioning slash

976
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,040
compelling Heber J Grant to
perform that ceremony.

977
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:24,200
All right, now I did.
This time, Heber's a polygamist,

978
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:25,720
right?
Yeah, he is.

979
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,120
He had three wives at this
point.

980
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,560
OK.
Yeah, And he wasn't, you know,

981
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:33,680
he wasn't against the principal
for himself.

982
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:36,720
And he later on in the Reed
Smoot hearings was pretty

983
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,840
defiant and said darn, and I
want to keep taking wives until

984
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:44,000
I have a son, because he had had
some sons but they had actually

985
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:47,680
died, or at least if he had that
news as one.

986
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:51,880
But in any case, by that point
in the Reed Scoot hearings he

987
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:57,040
had no male errors and he told
them to finally, I'll pay my

988
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:00,480
fine, then I'll do do my dues.
But I'm not going to stop living

989
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:02,880
in polygamy until I have a until
I have a son.

990
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:07,560
And sad to say, he never did
again.

991
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:10,080
None of his wives were able to
bear him any sons after that

992
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:15,360
point.
But I mean, if you hadn't been

993
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,840
so opposed to polygamy, you
could have, probably your odds

994
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,240
would have been in his favor.
Right, right.

995
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:27,640
Yeah.
OK, and she's that Lady is not

996
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:29,520
the only hiring by the way.
We're going to mention some

997
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:33,160
other hirings in the the hiring
family that are involved with

998
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:39,600
post manifesto polygamy around
April of 1897 when.

999
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,960
Can't get enough of the Mormon
Renegade podcast?

1000
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,840
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1001
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:47,360
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1002
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,000
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1003
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:54,040
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1004
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:56,240
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1005
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,560
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1006
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:02,680
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1007
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,360
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1008
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:08,720
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1009
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:12,480
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1010
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,840
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1011
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:17,600
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1012
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:22,000
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1013
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:24,240
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1014
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:25,960
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1015
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,640
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1016
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,400
Went away from the mission, you
know, John Taylor was serving as

1017
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:36,560
mission president when he was
sent away because he still had

1018
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:39,280
to do other things that apostles
normally do, right?

1019
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:41,680
He wrote a letter.
I found it was pretty sweet,

1020
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:45,240
because now Nettie was expecting
her third child, and he writes a

1021
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:49,480
letter to her saying what in all
the world could compare with the

1022
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:52,640
bright, intelligent sunbeam
coming forth from one probation

1023
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,600
to another.
Clothed in an embryo with every

1024
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,920
attribute of its creator.
Being innocent from the

1025
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:04,560
beginning, coming to us as a
gift for time and eternity,

1026
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:07,240
Clothed with the elements of
eternal and everlasting life,

1027
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:11,320
with power to grow and develop
and go on and on, increasing and

1028
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,120
progressing from one stage of
perfection to another until it

1029
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,600
becomes even as our Father in
Heaven is perfect.

1030
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,360
Think of it, my dear beloved
wife, that you have the honor of

1031
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,880
becoming the Mother, and I the
Father of one who has power, if

1032
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,520
directed right to attain all
intelligence, all power, all

1033
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:31,840
knowledge, and all glory,
possessing Thrones,

1034
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,640
principalities, and eternal
life, who shall in the great

1035
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:38,200
future preside over its
posterity as our own Heavenly

1036
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:41,720
Father presides over us?
I say again, dear one, I think

1037
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:44,760
or think of these things, when
the hour of pain and sorrow

1038
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:47,960
comes in bearing the fruit of
your loins, remember the reward

1039
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:50,120
and bear up under your temporary
affliction.

1040
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,120
For sacrifice brings forth the
blessings of heaven.

1041
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:57,480
And how we will rejoice when we
can unite in beholding a new

1042
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:00,400
messenger from heaven, clothed
with the intelligence of our

1043
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:04,840
Father and Mother in heaven and
all our own, or all our own.

1044
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:08,360
Not a gift to pass away with
time, but one that is ours

1045
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:12,640
forever.
Batman is a smooth criminal.

1046
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,400
Yeah, he is.
You know, I like this because

1047
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:20,240
this humanizes the principle,
right?

1048
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:27,000
So often from the outside
looking in, it seems very cold

1049
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,280
and academic.
Sometimes in the way that it's

1050
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,880
portrayed, sure.
But here we get a glimpse into

1051
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:35,200
the feeling of the man's soul,
right?

1052
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:39,400
What this principle really means
to him and what it's really all

1053
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,520
about.
It's about eternal posterity.

1054
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,160
It's about eternal families.
It's not about self

1055
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,840
aggrandizement in the vain sense
of the word.

1056
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:52,800
This is about all those things
that we as Mormons hold most

1057
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:58,320
dear and cherish most above all
other things, The this idea of

1058
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:00,920
an eternal posterity and eternal
families.

1059
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:04,880
It certainly is.
That's, you know.

1060
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:09,040
And when you when you, it all
ties back to the plan of

1061
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:11,800
salvation, right.
And you learn that as a Mormon,

1062
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,360
you know and pretty much any
slice of the the restoration

1063
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:17,960
that you follow and you it's the
most beautiful thing in the

1064
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,880
world.
To to understand that you have

1065
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:26,680
the promise of having an eternal
family and it answers the

1066
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:30,520
questions that sectarian
Christianity with their

1067
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:32,120
philosophy was not able to
answer.

1068
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,200
And I well, there probably are
branches of the restoration that

1069
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,000
I don't know what they do with
that because they reject even

1070
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:41,120
eternal marriages.
And what a dismal thing to.

1071
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,359
Yeah.
To contemplate, I mean, look it,

1072
01:08:46,359 --> 01:08:51,680
it's that doctrine that that
makes all the other stuff we

1073
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:58,319
deal with as Mormons that that's
that's the reward, right?

1074
01:08:58,319 --> 01:09:01,040
I mean that's that's what it's
about.

1075
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:03,560
That's why you do all these
other things.

1076
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:07,160
Mm hmm.
From from baptism to temple

1077
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:09,560
work.
That's why we do all these other

1078
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:12,720
things, is to have those
crowning blessings.

1079
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:17,399
Yeah.
And so I I thought that was neat

1080
01:09:17,399 --> 01:09:19,720
for him to, to write a letter
consoling his wife that he

1081
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:23,840
wouldn't be there, you know,
again, and duty calls.

1082
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:30,040
And it's a hard thing because it
is hard to put the Lord first

1083
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:32,120
when you've got your family on
the line.

1084
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:38,200
Yeah.
And the tender feelings no.

1085
01:09:39,279 --> 01:09:44,560
Of your young lady or or maybe
not so tender expression of

1086
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,960
those feelings because they can
get pretty upset sometimes too.

1087
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:52,720
And when you when you but you
need to do those things and you

1088
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,920
need to put the Lord 1st and
hope that they will also put the

1089
01:09:55,920 --> 01:10:00,040
Lord 1st.
And in any case, I'm sure it

1090
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:01,480
broke his heart though, to do
that.

1091
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:10,720
And let's see, moving on from
that point, by this point, there

1092
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:15,120
was a stake organized in Mexico.
And so it goes from being a

1093
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:20,280
Mission District presided over
by an apostle to having Anthony

1094
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:23,200
W Ivins being the stake
president.

1095
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:28,240
And he kind of takes care of the
majority of the ceilings down

1096
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:31,480
there from that point, although
Alexander McDonald still does.

1097
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:37,560
And on occasion, visiting
apostles will also take care of

1098
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:45,640
certain things.
Let's see it'll.

1099
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:55,280
In fact, one of my notes here
says Anthony W Ivins married a

1100
01:10:55,280 --> 01:11:02,040
couple, Walter W Steed and his
second wife Susan Alice Bell

1101
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:04,440
Clark, which is sister of Nathan
Clark.

1102
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:08,920
Do you know any of those names,
Nathan?

1103
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:10,600
Clark.
Nathan Clark.

1104
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:12,920
That sounds familiar, but I
couldn't play some.

1105
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:15,320
OK, we're going to get more into
Nathan Clark later.

1106
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:19,600
And Walter Steed, you know, is
one of the ancestors of a lot of

1107
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:21,560
steeds that are in
fundamentalism today.

1108
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:23,400
It's a big family name.
Yep.

1109
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:31,880
In any case, he he was married
to Nathan Clark's sister, and he

1110
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:34,160
also lived in Davis County, by
the way.

1111
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:39,040
You know, going to the Steed
name it.

1112
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:42,040
It took me a few years to to get
the connection.

1113
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:48,360
But if you remember right, when
I joined the church in 1995,

1114
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:53,840
there was a series of books that
had just come out called The

1115
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,040
Work and the Glory.
Sure, yeah.

1116
01:11:56,240 --> 01:12:01,040
And do no matter what anybody
says, I still think those are

1117
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:10,000
great books and and I owe a lot
of my me being able to recognize

1118
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:16,360
and and kind of claim that
history is my own a little bit

1119
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:17,520
through those books.
Right.

1120
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:20,160
Those really caught me up as far
as church history.

1121
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,800
What I find interesting is that
the name of the family that

1122
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:27,320
those books follow are steeds,
right?

1123
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,360
And I've.
I've drawn that connection as

1124
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:31,480
well.
And I've often wondered from

1125
01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:34,520
time to time, like is there Part
2 to this?

1126
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:36,800
I mean, is there like another
series of books where they?

1127
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:41,640
Do a fundamentalist history
version of the of the same

1128
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:44,200
state.
Family I I have been so tempted

1129
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:48,440
at times.
Call up the I mean, Gerald run.

1130
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:50,120
Was it Gerald Lund that wrote
those books?

1131
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:50,480
Yeah.
It was.

1132
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:52,120
It was Gerald and Lund.
Yep.

1133
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:54,480
And so he's probably dead at
this point.

1134
01:12:54,480 --> 01:12:57,960
But I wonder what his connection
Gerald Lund's was to Anthony H

1135
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:00,560
Lund who was involved in these
very events.

1136
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:02,960
Yeah, no, I've wondered that
same thing.

1137
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:05,440
Because it's a funny name to
pick out, right?

1138
01:13:05,440 --> 01:13:11,120
You could have picked a ton of
other historical names to go

1139
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:14,400
through this thing with, but he
went out of his way to pick

1140
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:17,400
Steed.
Yeah, yeah.

1141
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:20,840
I mean, they're the only
historical Steed family I know,

1142
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:23,960
and I don't know when the Steed
family convert, this particular

1143
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:26,840
historical Steed family
converted to the church.

1144
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:31,080
But in any case, we'll talk more
about the steeds in a few years

1145
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:39,920
at this point.
So summer of 1897, John W Taylor

1146
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:43,080
tells his wife that we're going
to go fishing out in San Luis

1147
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:44,640
Valley.
We're going to have a fun time.

1148
01:13:45,440 --> 01:13:48,520
And, you know, we never really
got a honeymoon because if you

1149
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:52,760
recall, they were married by
Francis M Lyman at night in a

1150
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:55,800
carriage while they were driving
around the park in Salt Lake.

1151
01:13:56,080 --> 01:14:01,080
Yep, very unorthodox.
And then she got dropped off at

1152
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:02,320
home.
Yep.

1153
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,320
And so he's basically making up
like, OK, like, let's go on a

1154
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:07,840
real honeymoon.
We're going to go out into the

1155
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:10,760
mountains and we're going to go
fishing, and it'll just be us.

1156
01:14:11,440 --> 01:14:15,040
And it doesn't really turn out
that way.

1157
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:19,680
Coincidentally, there were other
Mormon settlements in the San

1158
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:25,720
Luis Valley at this point and
they had grown pretty cold in

1159
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:30,400
the faith, you could say.
And the, the basically some of

1160
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:33,440
the in the back of his mind
intention was I'm going to go, I

1161
01:14:33,440 --> 01:14:37,640
want to go revive, you know, the
spirit, some of these people.

1162
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:42,640
And they go to a town called
Manasseh and it's still there,

1163
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:45,880
by the way, Manassa, Colorado.
And if you look on Google Maps

1164
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:51,120
and find that town, it is laid
out just like a Utah town in the

1165
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:52,160
grid.
Yep.

1166
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:59,680
Yeah, awesome.
And they're staying there in

1167
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:02,480
Manassa, but they have a
campsite out in the Conejos

1168
01:15:02,480 --> 01:15:05,400
Canyon.
And then all of a sudden

1169
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:08,600
prominent leaders from the
church start showing up, you

1170
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:11,400
know to where these meetings are
and he's he's starting to hold

1171
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:15,840
meetings.
And in any case you got all the

1172
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:18,560
Mormons from the towns in the
San Luis Valley coming out to be

1173
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:21,320
the brethren there.
John W Taylor's there and

1174
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:25,400
Gentiles end up flocking to the
the meetings in the Canyon and

1175
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:27,200
apparently turned into quite a
big deal.

1176
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:32,240
And hundreds of converts were
baptized and after an outpouring

1177
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:35,960
of the Spirit, John W Taylor
prophesied that a temple would

1178
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,800
be built in that town if the if
the people were faithful.

1179
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:44,080
Wow.
And it hasn't happened yet, but.

1180
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:46,760
Hasn't happened yet, but I have
an interesting historical

1181
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:50,960
anecdote regarding John W Taylor
and temples.

1182
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:55,040
OK, so we know from the last
podcast that he also prophesied

1183
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:58,560
the spot of the Alberta Cardston
Temple.

1184
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,880
Yep, and it was built on the
very spot, actually, that he

1185
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:05,160
predicted it would be when the
church had another spot in mind.

1186
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:07,840
For a long time, actually.
But then it ended up being the

1187
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:09,520
the other spot that he
predicted.

1188
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:16,240
But I there's there's at least
another town and I think he

1189
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:19,000
would probably do this.
And I don't want to say he made

1190
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:24,360
a system of doing this, but I
think I could I I believe he was

1191
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:25,680
inspired to the Lord do this
too.

1192
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:30,000
But he made another promise in
Safford, Arizona.

1193
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:32,720
One point where he was visiting
there and I don't remember what

1194
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:38,000
the year was and he promised
them if they were faithful on

1195
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,640
condition of faithfulness,
right, that you will have a

1196
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:48,080
temple in this town.
I know of a man who came out

1197
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:53,920
with his family from the AUB
named Ted Jessup who, when

1198
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:58,400
looking to to do things that he
was called to do, was looking

1199
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:01,680
towards Safford, Arizona and the
Gila River valley area.

1200
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:05,720
Because he knew John W Taylor
had prophesied that a temple

1201
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:08,800
would be built in that area and
there was not yet a temple

1202
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,120
there.
And he said in one of the

1203
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:15,000
meetings that he was holding
that the church was going to

1204
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:18,920
build one there.
But Hebrew J Grant made it so

1205
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:22,600
that the Mesa Temple was built
first in order that John W

1206
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:25,280
Taylor wouldn't be vindicated in
prophesying that.

1207
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:28,360
Interesting.
That's what Ted Jessup said in

1208
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:34,240
the 90s.
But he But if you go look on the

1209
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:39,400
church websites, there is a Gila
River Valley temple between

1210
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:44,280
Thatcher and Safford, Arizona.
And it says on the website that

1211
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:48,640
John W Taylor promised them that
they would have a temple there.

1212
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,360
So yeah, so at some point
between the 90s and now, they,

1213
01:17:52,440 --> 01:17:54,400
the church, did build a temple
there.

1214
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:59,880
But I would just say, you know,
if there's any people fleeing

1215
01:17:59,880 --> 01:18:02,200
out into the wilderness that
need to take the priesthood with

1216
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:06,360
them, make you have a claim,
maybe you should look at Manassa

1217
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:07,720
Colorado.
I don't know.

1218
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:12,160
Yeah.
Fulfilled prophecy.

1219
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:16,080
I just, I don't know.
I just think there's something

1220
01:18:16,160 --> 01:18:17,480
poetic to that.
You know if you're.

1221
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:22,160
I mean that kind of goes to it's
it's an interesting question of

1222
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:31,400
yeah, the philosophical question
of how much do we do to fulfill

1223
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:34,400
prophecy ourselves or whatever,
you know self fulfilling

1224
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:36,400
prophecy or whatnot what have
you.

1225
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:40,440
In any case that one's hanging
over Manassa, Colorado is all

1226
01:18:40,440 --> 01:18:49,120
I'm saying.
Let's see around this time I

1227
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:53,320
might have been in Colorado in
one of the branches he's, I took

1228
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:54,920
the snippet out of Family
Kingdom.

1229
01:18:57,040 --> 01:19:00,200
He says get married.
You men are only Half Men

1230
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:02,080
without wives.
And don't be bashful about the

1231
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:03,640
girls.
They're just as anxious to get

1232
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:07,080
married as you are.
Look around you men at the girls

1233
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:08,880
sitting here.
Pick out the one you'd like.

1234
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:11,680
Now watch her.
If she smiles, she'll listen to

1235
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:14,160
a proposal.
Well, look at that.

1236
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:16,160
Every girl in this place is
smiling.

1237
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:19,840
And now I'll tell you.
And now I'll tell you if she'll

1238
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:22,360
accept you.
If she laughs, now she will.

1239
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:26,280
Nice.
Well, brothers and sisters, it

1240
01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:27,640
looks like we're.
Going to have a flock.

1241
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:36,400
Of marriages you can see.
You can see why people Yeah, you

1242
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:38,120
could see.
Why People were drawn to him,

1243
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:41,880
right This is the guy that's
going to preach the gospel, but

1244
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:47,840
yet this is still a guy who,
who, who, who's rooted in?

1245
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:50,640
In.
And being human, right?

1246
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,240
This is a guy who's not
interested in becoming a marble

1247
01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:58,840
statue.
This is a guy who is very much

1248
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:04,560
trying to to lead a people and
do it in a very loving,

1249
01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:10,240
good-natured, jovial way.
And again, I really, I love the

1250
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:12,680
humanity that comes through with
these stories.

1251
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:15,240
Me too.
And dude, that is

1252
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:20,320
psychologically so sly.
To I mean to, yeah, to.

1253
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:21,920
To the point where he's
embarrassing both.

1254
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:23,880
The young men.
And the young women, but he's

1255
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:25,800
getting them.
But he does it in such a right

1256
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:29,240
way, way where I could see one
not giving the confidence to the

1257
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:31,960
young man to actually, OK, maybe
I should go out and ask this

1258
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:35,200
young lady, Yeah, you know, and
it's dude, it's a perfect

1259
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:39,160
icebreaker right there.
Like like this apostle in the

1260
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:43,480
church just broke the ice for
every single person in that ward

1261
01:20:43,480 --> 01:20:46,440
or whatever to go and talk about
things like that.

1262
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:49,560
That apostle was those young
men's ultimate.

1263
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:51,840
Wingman, right.
Like, beat that.

1264
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:53,800
Wingman, right.
No, you can't.

1265
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:55,480
You can't beat it.
Yeah, it's done right.

1266
01:20:55,480 --> 01:20:57,560
I mean game.
Over you know who my.

1267
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:00,320
Wingman is it's Sean W Taylor.
He just totally opened this bad

1268
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:05,160
boy up for me.
So yeah, and it's.

1269
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:09,080
It's.
Awesome the the way.

1270
01:21:09,440 --> 01:21:12,840
That he takes that work.
So seriously, and it's it's no,

1271
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:15,600
there's no outright mention of
the principle there.

1272
01:21:16,480 --> 01:21:20,080
But that very well could have
been part of the reason, right,

1273
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:23,480
Right.
You know that he's trying to get

1274
01:21:23,480 --> 01:21:26,320
these, He's trying to get people
to enter into it.

1275
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:34,280
Let's see, in October 1897, in
conference he gives a talk about

1276
01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:36,560
the Law of Abraham.
You know which we know what that

1277
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:40,360
is by code language.
And I never went back to find it

1278
01:21:40,360 --> 01:21:42,400
to see if I could find it in any
conference reports.

1279
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:45,840
But apparently he got kind of
trouble after that one because

1280
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:49,240
it was too on the nose, you
know, for a public discourse.

1281
01:21:51,480 --> 01:21:56,480
But in that same conference
where he's talking about the the

1282
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:59,640
Law of Abraham, that's when
Matthias F Cowley and Abraham

1283
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:03,720
Owen Woodruff are ordained to
the 12th.

1284
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:07,440
Now, Matthias Calley's got at
least two wives at this point.

1285
01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:13,560
And Owen Woodruff, who is son of
President Wolford Woodruff, is

1286
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:14,520
he's pretty young.
He's.

1287
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:20,760
I don't think he's quite 30 yet,
probably 2728, but he's got one

1288
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:26,160
wife, no kids, OK?
And I don't know how long.

1289
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:29,680
He's been married but.
They had a They had a problem

1290
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:32,520
with fertility and they were not
able to have kids for a while.

1291
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:34,320
And we're going to get back to
that in a minute.

1292
01:22:34,440 --> 01:22:40,440
Or yeah, right after conference,
apostle George Teasdale marries

1293
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:50,520
another wife and yes, indeed in
January of 1898.

1294
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:56,600
So a good three or four months
after young Owen Woodruff enters

1295
01:22:56,600 --> 01:23:00,400
into the form of the 12th
January of 1898, John W Taylor

1296
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:04,720
prophesied the Helen Helen
Winters, wife of Apostle

1297
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:06,440
Abraham.
Owen Woodruff would bear

1298
01:23:06,440 --> 01:23:10,280
children, and in fact her first
child would be a son.

1299
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:13,280
And beyond that, that the son
would be born with a cow lick.

1300
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:18,200
Wow, it's pretty specific.
And he was right on.

1301
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:19,240
All counts.
Wow.

1302
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:26,000
Holy cow.
And this would be.

1303
01:23:26,480 --> 01:23:28,080
Nearly two years later, that
she.

1304
01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:33,360
Had the that Son, holy cow so in
late, late 1899.

1305
01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:37,200
So, yeah, so there.
Was a they had a a while to let

1306
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:41,840
that that promise marinate.
And so he would have been 30

1307
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:47,360
years old with a before Owen
Woodruff had his first child.

1308
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:54,400
And there's other meetings where
I think he would kind of, you

1309
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:55,840
know, Owen Woodruff.
Would kind of talk to.

1310
01:23:57,160 --> 01:24:00,480
Others on the form of the 12th
and say you know, like I'm just,

1311
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:04,280
I'm, I'm distraught, you know,
we're not having any kids no

1312
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:08,080
matter, you know, what we do.
And I think Franklin D Richards

1313
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:09,200
was one of them if it wasn't.
Him.

1314
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:12,520
It was Mariner.
Merrill, you know, reminded him,

1315
01:24:12,520 --> 01:24:16,360
hey, look at look at the
precedent we have in the

1316
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,720
faithful women that had
struggled with with childbearing

1317
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:24,200
in the scriptures and who more.
You know, US, you know,

1318
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:27,720
essentially our our entire
lineage comes from from those,

1319
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:32,160
those mothers.
In February of 1898, the family

1320
01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:36,120
of a Bishop named Lauren Harmer
of Springville claimed that

1321
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:39,800
Joseph F Smith encouraged him to
enter into plural marriage in

1322
01:24:39,800 --> 01:24:46,120
1897 while they were both in New
York City on a trip.

1323
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:53,640
He says that in February of
1898, Joseph W Summerhays, he's

1324
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:57,040
important, later talked some
private business over with

1325
01:24:57,040 --> 01:25:00,200
President Smith, told him.
I told him some of the brethren

1326
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:03,360
were getting wives, and I asked
him if it would be all right if

1327
01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:05,680
I took one.
He said it would be under

1328
01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:08,320
certain conditions.
Interesting.

1329
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:12,840
And see Joseph F Smith.
Has has an interesting history,

1330
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:14,960
right?
Not only do we have this coming

1331
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:20,080
out now, but I know he was
renowned for if somebody came up

1332
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:23,480
to him and said hey, you know,
not in the 12 or something like

1333
01:25:23,480 --> 01:25:27,280
that and said I want to enter.
You know the principle he would

1334
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:30,440
say something to the effect of,
well, if you can find someone to

1335
01:25:30,440 --> 01:25:35,000
do it, God bless you, and then
would walk away and then I'll be

1336
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:36,880
darned.
If someone's not knocking on his

1337
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:42,360
door going, I was directed to
your home because you needed an

1338
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:46,480
ordinance done sort of a thing.
And so he was.

1339
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:52,360
He was smooth as well with with
this whole thing, he was.

1340
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:54,160
And I wish I would have
footnoted.

1341
01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:58,160
It or or recorded it.
I remember seeing in the days

1342
01:25:58,160 --> 01:26:00,160
where he's president of the
church and he's not quite

1343
01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:02,480
president of the church yet.
He's in the first presidency at

1344
01:26:02,480 --> 01:26:04,520
this point.
But when he's president of the

1345
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:07,960
church, when he's out speaking
in a branch in Idaho, he says,

1346
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:12,160
point blank, I will lie like
hell to defend my brethren.

1347
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:15,760
Yeah.
And and I think that's even.

1348
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:18,200
An echoing.
Or a repetition of statements

1349
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:20,160
that Joseph Smith made in his
own life.

1350
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:24,200
You know, And so when you take
those things into consideration,

1351
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:28,080
the writing's on the wall.
You know, he did make also a ton

1352
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:34,560
of public denials.
Or, you know, declarations that

1353
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:37,200
we are not doing this anymore.
We are not practicing plural

1354
01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:40,000
marriage.
But like he said, I will lie

1355
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:41,800
like hell to protect my
brethren.

1356
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:44,960
Yep, Yep.
No this this is such.

1357
01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:50,840
A fascinating time in in Mormon
history because it it's a time

1358
01:26:50,840 --> 01:26:54,840
of high intrigue.
It's a time of like double

1359
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:57,960
agents, right?
I mean, seriously, there is

1360
01:26:57,960 --> 01:27:01,360
stuff going on.
Super compartmentalized.

1361
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:03,320
Yeah.
There's like one group here and

1362
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,240
they don't know about the other
guys being commissioned by the

1363
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:10,920
same person, right?
You know, it's like a spy movie,

1364
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:13,680
Like you're putting it down.
It really is.

1365
01:27:13,680 --> 01:27:14,840
And.
And.

1366
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:18,480
Yeah, it it's a fascinating
time.

1367
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:24,000
That really sets up precedent
for what becomes the the the

1368
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:26,280
modern Mormon fundamentalist
experience.

1369
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:34,320
Yeah, it's fascinating.
Let's see.

1370
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:41,480
So that was in. 8 February 1890.
8 When Bishop Lauren Harmer and

1371
01:27:41,480 --> 01:27:44,480
Summer Hayes Joseph Summer Hayes
go and talk to President Smith,

1372
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:52,440
February in March of 1898, John
W Taylor and Apostle John Henry

1373
01:27:52,440 --> 01:27:58,920
Smith go down to Mexico and
Arizona, and while on that

1374
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:02,320
circuit from visiting the
branches in Arizona and Mexico,

1375
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:08,920
they perform over 90 marriages,
many of which were plural.

1376
01:28:09,440 --> 01:28:11,960
Right.
I don't have an exact figure of

1377
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:13,120
how many were.
Plural but.

1378
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:15,960
I do know, yeah.
This is when John W Taylor

1379
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:20,760
begins to perform the first
plural marriages post manifesto

1380
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:33,200
that he performs, he performs.
One for the first one is

1381
01:28:33,200 --> 01:28:37,440
February. 22nd George.
Washington's Birthday on 1898

1382
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:44,200
for Charles Whipple and Mary
Walser March 8th, 1898 for Anson

1383
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:46,680
B.
Call sealed to his third wife,

1384
01:28:47,160 --> 01:28:53,960
Dora Pratt and.
Three days before that, he

1385
01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:56,880
sealed Fred.
Heaton to Abigail Cox.

1386
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:06,160
And then actually.
There was 3 on the same day.

1387
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:08,440
In fact, I'm.
Looking at this, so the first

1388
01:29:08,440 --> 01:29:11,760
one was February 22nd, the
second one was March 5th, and

1389
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:15,240
then he performed 3 plural
ceremonies for three different

1390
01:29:15,240 --> 01:29:20,480
men.
On the same day, March 8th,

1391
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:23,000
1898.
Holy cow.

1392
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,120
And then a sixth one.
On March 10th.

1393
01:29:26,480 --> 01:29:30,320
Two days after that.
So one of those.

1394
01:29:30,480 --> 01:29:32,000
So I found some interesting
stuff here.

1395
01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:36,720
OK, so one of those was Anson B
Call and I think he's the son of

1396
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:40,480
the Anson Call that lived in the
days of Joseph Smith.

1397
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:48,840
But he he brother Call, this was
not the first plural wife that

1398
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:52,040
he had taken.
He had taken a second wife in

1399
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:57,240
Mexico already when the like.
He went down to Mexico when the

1400
01:29:57,480 --> 01:29:59,720
manifesto was first issued.
We're eight years removed from

1401
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:03,560
that now, right?
But I don't know if they were

1402
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:05,640
able to have any children
before.

1403
01:30:06,160 --> 01:30:08,840
And in any case, she dies her
second, his second wife does.

1404
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:13,640
And so he's getting permission
to get, you know, to enter into

1405
01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:18,120
the principal again.
And John Taylor, John W Taylor

1406
01:30:18,120 --> 01:30:21,440
was able to do that for him.
In any case, in his own family

1407
01:30:21,440 --> 01:30:25,640
history, I found he has some
interesting reminiscences about

1408
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:28,640
some visitations or experiences
he had in Mexico that I felt was

1409
01:30:28,640 --> 01:30:33,520
very interesting.
In his own memoir, Anson B Call

1410
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:37,960
writes, sometime during the
night, a personage appeared at

1411
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:41,080
the foot of my bed.
I raised up and sat up in bed

1412
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:42,880
and discovered that it was my
father.

1413
01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:46,360
He held a book under his arm.
He took the book out and opened

1414
01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:49,440
it and told me that it was an
account of my life.

1415
01:30:50,440 --> 01:30:52,720
It showed me the debits and
credits of my life and.

1416
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:55,160
Appeared to me to.
Be about 1/3 full.

1417
01:30:56,080 --> 01:30:58,600
I thought that the debit side
exceeded the credit side and

1418
01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:02,120
that my record was very bad as
the last entry made on the debit

1419
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:05,080
side was very large, the largest
in the whole of the book.

1420
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:08,480
My father told me that the Lord
is very displeased because I had

1421
01:31:08,480 --> 01:31:12,400
not acknowledged his hand in
taking Haiti, which was his

1422
01:31:12,480 --> 01:31:15,600
second wife, I guess, and that
the last large figure

1423
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:19,720
represented this.
I attempted to add the debits in

1424
01:31:19,720 --> 01:31:23,040
the book, but my father closed
the book and said no one but the

1425
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:26,560
custodian of that book had any
right to examine its contents.

1426
01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:31,000
He said that the custodian of my
book was John W Taylor, who

1427
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:32,560
later married me to my third
wife.

1428
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:35,840
He told me that my life was
generally approved, but that the

1429
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:39,400
Lord was very much grieved.
At the last recording, however,

1430
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:42,680
he assured me that the credits
were greater than the debits,

1431
01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:45,760
even though they appeared to be
less, as they recorded the

1432
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:48,080
debits more often than they did
the credits.

1433
01:31:48,920 --> 01:31:51,680
My father said that I would live
to fill that book and that I

1434
01:31:51,680 --> 01:31:53,440
would not be taken until it was
filled.

1435
01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:57,240
As it appeared to me to be 1/3
full, I figured I would live to

1436
01:31:57,240 --> 01:32:00,520
be 84 years old.
That's what he wrote.

1437
01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:03,480
Consequently, he ended up
actually living to be 91 years

1438
01:32:03,480 --> 01:32:07,080
old.
But yeah, so he he has this

1439
01:32:07,080 --> 01:32:10,840
vision where he's struggling
with the death of his second

1440
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:15,720
wife and the Lord makes him
known, makes it known to him

1441
01:32:15,720 --> 01:32:19,720
that it was ordained by him to
take her back and that there

1442
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:24,240
would be someone, you know that
to fix this situation, you know,

1443
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:28,720
or the the John W Taylor will be
sent to take care of that.

1444
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:31,360
OK.
Isn't that awesome?

1445
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:33,080
That is awesome.
Holy cow.

1446
01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:35,480
And this is before he married
her.

1447
01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:38,160
The third wife.
Wow.

1448
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,640
So he's relating this to his
posterity in his own family

1449
01:32:41,640 --> 01:32:43,400
history.
Holy cow.

1450
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:44,760
Dude.
I.

1451
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:47,560
Those are the experiences that I
feel.

1452
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:49,960
Like we're not.
Taking advantage of in

1453
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:56,600
Mormonism, I I think if we're
living as best we can and we are

1454
01:32:56,600 --> 01:32:57,800
really.
Striving.

1455
01:32:58,160 --> 01:33:01,840
We should expect those to see
some of those things in in the

1456
01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:05,400
course of our lifetime.
I think that's the promise of of

1457
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:08,800
Mormonism.
I think so, to a degree, I.

1458
01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:13,400
I'll just say I've had enough
experiences in my life that I

1459
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:17,800
don't demand them.
No, and I wouldn't say anyone.

1460
01:33:17,800 --> 01:33:20,560
Should, but I do know what.
You mean because it's a fine

1461
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:21,960
line.
I'm just very super cautious

1462
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:23,920
when it comes to that.
But you're you're you're right

1463
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:25,040
though.
When you look even at the Book

1464
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:29,800
of Mormon, it says miracle.
If if you say that miracles have

1465
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:31,880
ceased, it's because you have no
faith, right?

1466
01:33:33,480 --> 01:33:34,640
Right.
Absolutely.

1467
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:38,960
I I'm not saying go out and
demand.

1468
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:40,880
A sign like the wicked.
Generation.

1469
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:44,840
I'm just saying we should be
more open to it, yeah.

1470
01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:45,880
And that's a good way of putting
it.

1471
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:47,560
We should be more.
Open to it and.

1472
01:33:48,280 --> 01:33:51,040
I'll be honest with you, Dave.
I struggle with that to a point

1473
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:56,120
because I am personally more
analytical, bordering, cynical

1474
01:33:56,560 --> 01:34:00,800
sometimes, and I don't know if
that's just the way I am or if

1475
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:03,280
I've made myself that way just
through my own well.

1476
01:34:03,280 --> 01:34:05,920
And I'm not saying we should
believe every claim that comes

1477
01:34:05,920 --> 01:34:07,280
along.
Either, right?

1478
01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:10,840
I I think we do have to have be
somewhat analytical, if not

1479
01:34:10,840 --> 01:34:15,880
downright skeptical at times,
but for for personal experiences

1480
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:18,080
more than anything else, right?
Yes.

1481
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:20,920
And I'm I I'm always very
cautious.

1482
01:34:20,920 --> 01:34:23,800
When I hear of a guy.
Who's having visions every day,

1483
01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:28,360
right at that point?
At that point, I'm like, Ro, are

1484
01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:29,920
we OK?
Right.

1485
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:32,800
But and and you can always tell,
right?

1486
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:38,680
Like, I remember I had a Bishop
who was in Vietnam and he was in

1487
01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:42,040
the Tet Offensive, right?
And there was another guy in our

1488
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:48,400
ward who was always talking
about his time in Nam, right?

1489
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:52,520
And I remember once he told me.
This Bishop told me he.

1490
01:34:52,520 --> 01:34:56,480
Said, you know what he's like?
I don't think he was at the

1491
01:34:56,480 --> 01:35:00,200
places he said he was.
And I'm like, I'm like, why is

1492
01:35:00,200 --> 01:35:01,760
that?
And he's like anybody who was in

1493
01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:03,480
the Tet Offensive.
We don't talk about it.

1494
01:35:04,320 --> 01:35:07,160
And sure enough, it came came
out later that the guy was like

1495
01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:10,920
a clerk who never left, you
know, whatever.

1496
01:35:11,160 --> 01:35:14,600
But he was right.
And and sometimes I look at

1497
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:17,040
spiritual experiences like that,
right?

1498
01:35:17,040 --> 01:35:20,680
Like the guys who are out there
saying they have them all the

1499
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:23,120
time.
I get a little skeptical about

1500
01:35:23,440 --> 01:35:26,200
the ones I tend to believe are
the ones that are told to me in

1501
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:33,160
private in a very solemn.
Environment.

1502
01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:35,400
Those are the ones.
That that tend to have the

1503
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:40,040
spirits, you know the have the
spirit testify of truth of these

1504
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:42,320
things.
So I I guess what I'm saying is,

1505
01:35:42,320 --> 01:35:48,240
is that we should be in a
position to where we shouldn't

1506
01:35:48,240 --> 01:35:50,800
be surprised when.
Those happens not necessarily.

1507
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:53,080
Seeking for them.
But understand, it is definitely

1508
01:35:53,080 --> 01:35:56,000
part of the gospel plan.
Absolutely.

1509
01:35:56,000 --> 01:35:57,600
You know, and I'll just say
that.

1510
01:35:57,600 --> 01:36:01,280
The most the period of my life
where I had experiences the most

1511
01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:04,880
frequently was nearest when I
was serving a mission for the

1512
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:08,000
Church where according according
to the light and knowledge, I

1513
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:13,400
then had the way that I was
acting and being in complete

1514
01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:15,880
constant service on the Lord's
mission.

1515
01:36:16,560 --> 01:36:22,360
I was blessed highly of the Lord
to receive personal revelation

1516
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:30,360
of the Adam, God doctrine of the
general beginnings of the my

1517
01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:33,400
understandings that things are
not right where they're at and

1518
01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:37,680
that where I need to be needs is
going to be different.

1519
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:40,160
And pleading with the Lord
myself.

1520
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:44,000
That when I got off my mission I
would not lose the testimony I

1521
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:45,720
had.
And that I would have the

1522
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:49,400
strength to do whatever it took
to to cling to the Restoration.

1523
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:56,600
Because I saw people going back
to the world all the time and I

1524
01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:59,520
was very richly blessed.
With with information and.

1525
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:03,240
With a very strong testimony and
that I can fall back on from

1526
01:37:03,840 --> 01:37:07,160
those experiences which came
from my own personal sacrifice

1527
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:10,920
and consecration, right.
And that's so I that's just my

1528
01:37:10,920 --> 01:37:12,560
testimony.
I guess as we're bringing up

1529
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:17,480
this is if people want those
things, it's going to be through

1530
01:37:17,480 --> 01:37:19,160
sacrifice and.
Consecration.

1531
01:37:19,440 --> 01:37:30,120
Absolutely, Absolutely So we.
Get into the interesting phase

1532
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:35,800
with Matthias.
Cowley Now On April 13th, 1898,

1533
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:39,080
George Q Cannon authorizes
Matthias Cowley to perform a

1534
01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:41,800
plural marriage ceiling for Ben
E Rich.

1535
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:45,000
This is the first time that
Matthias Cowley receives

1536
01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:49,360
authority and a Commission to
perform plural marriage, he

1537
01:37:49,360 --> 01:37:53,080
later tells the other apostles
when he's brought to trial many

1538
01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:56,440
years later, President Cannon
told me personally to attend to

1539
01:37:56,440 --> 01:37:58,560
these matters.
There was no laying on of hands,

1540
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:01,280
but he gave the authority
personally.

1541
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:05,280
The Commission at this time was
to marry Brother Rich, but I was

1542
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:08,480
later told by him that I could
attend to suitable cases.

1543
01:38:11,080 --> 01:38:12,400
Kelly.
Performed the first of these

1544
01:38:12,400 --> 01:38:15,200
marriages for Benny Rich.
Who was President of the

1545
01:38:15,200 --> 01:38:19,840
Southern States Mission And he
later explained to the Formula

1546
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:22,800
12 that I was never instructed
to go to any foreign lands to

1547
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:26,240
perform these marriages,
although in some cases I did do

1548
01:38:26,240 --> 01:38:29,440
so.
President Cannon told me to do

1549
01:38:29,440 --> 01:38:31,480
these things or I never would
have done it.

1550
01:38:31,480 --> 01:38:34,880
Most of them went to Brother
Cannon and then came to me.

1551
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:42,040
Oh, OK.
And so from 18. 98 From 19 O 4

1552
01:38:43,080 --> 01:38:47,040
to 19 O 4 When when the second
Manifesto was given, We have

1553
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:52,680
documented about 40 or 45 plural
marriages that Matthias Cowley

1554
01:38:52,840 --> 01:38:54,040
did.
Alone.

1555
01:38:54,640 --> 01:39:02,280
Holy cow.
Which basically is like 30%

1556
01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:05,440
probably of all the ones that
we're aware of that were done by

1557
01:39:05,440 --> 01:39:09,880
members of the 12th that he
single handedly took on himself.

1558
01:39:10,160 --> 01:39:13,160
That man was busy.
Holy you.

1559
01:39:13,160 --> 01:39:14,960
Have no idea.
I have copies of marriage

1560
01:39:14,960 --> 01:39:16,160
records from that time.
Period.

1561
01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:19,760
Because they would keep these
marriage records in books, out

1562
01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:24,120
of temple ceilings, books that
later would get turned into the

1563
01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:27,360
off church offices.
And he was a busy dude.

1564
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:33,000
He was a busy busy busy guy.
But I love what he said.

1565
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:35,480
There is that president Cannon
told me to attend to these

1566
01:39:35,480 --> 01:39:40,400
matters and that most of them
would actually get a recommend

1567
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:42,440
from George Q Cann and then come
to him.

1568
01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:45,840
But that is all that.
Only that would only apply till

1569
01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:48,640
the time that George Q Cannon
died in 19 O one.

1570
01:39:50,680 --> 01:39:56,600
And then you have Joseph F Smith
kind of taken over the the rains

1571
01:39:56,600 --> 01:40:06,280
there, so to speak afterwards.
September 13th, right after

1572
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:13,840
this, so that was April 13th, is
when Matthias Kelly performed

1573
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:17,880
that first ceremony.
By September 13th, Wilford

1574
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:22,480
Woodruff and Die and a new First
Presidency was organized and

1575
01:40:22,520 --> 01:40:24,680
Lorenzo Snow is now President of
the Church.

1576
01:40:25,480 --> 01:40:29,760
And right after that, because of
this Commission that Matthias

1577
01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:33,760
Cowley gets from George
Buchanan, Matthias Cowley went

1578
01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:38,120
to President Lorenzo Snow and
asked him about whether or not

1579
01:40:38,120 --> 01:40:42,200
the authority was legitimate.
And President Lorenzo Snow told

1580
01:40:42,200 --> 01:40:46,920
Matthias Cowley that he did not
want to be known in or interfere

1581
01:40:47,120 --> 01:40:49,960
with Cowley's Commission from
George Buchanan to perform new

1582
01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:53,800
plural marriages.
And so he either he completely

1583
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:56,120
endorsed it or was willing to
turn a blind eye.

1584
01:40:56,560 --> 01:40:59,440
In either case, at any case,
this is the first time we can

1585
01:40:59,440 --> 01:41:02,920
see don't ask, don't tell.
Being implemented, yeah, in a

1586
01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:05,560
far better way I would say, than
that term is generally.

1587
01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:10,080
Used, But he said I will not
interfere with President

1588
01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:12,440
Cannon's work.
Interesting.

1589
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:21,560
And George Q Cannon also dies
before Lorenzo Snow.

1590
01:41:21,560 --> 01:41:24,680
Dies.
And if I remember correctly, so

1591
01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:29,160
when Wolf and Woodruff dies new
presidencies or set set apart,

1592
01:41:29,480 --> 01:41:32,880
he goes to Lorenzo Snow asks is
this legit still?

1593
01:41:34,400 --> 01:41:37,480
And then George Q Cannon dies
before Lorenzo Snow does, right

1594
01:41:37,480 --> 01:41:41,160
and and then Matthias Cowley
goes to Lorenzo Snow and says is

1595
01:41:41,160 --> 01:41:43,120
this still fine that I keep
doing this?

1596
01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:48,160
And basically the same answer.
Wow, wow.

1597
01:41:48,160 --> 01:41:51,000
So there it's it's a silent
endorsement.

1598
01:41:52,080 --> 01:41:59,440
From Lorenzo Snow, he's he would
make strong statements.

1599
01:41:59,440 --> 01:42:01,000
As well publicly that we're not
doing.

1600
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:05,000
This anymore, but according to
Matthias Cowley in private, that

1601
01:42:05,000 --> 01:42:07,600
was not the case.
According to Joseph Masser, he

1602
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:11,160
received a letter from Lorenzo
Snow telling him you you've been

1603
01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:16,880
selected to enter into the
principal, and we see instances

1604
01:42:16,880 --> 01:42:23,600
where Lorenzo Snow takes
measures to make sure that local

1605
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:30,240
authorities are not cutting off
people who are have been found.

1606
01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:33,520
And exposed to the.
The lawful authorities that

1607
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:37,640
they've taken new wives or or
entered into a polygamous

1608
01:42:38,160 --> 01:42:40,600
situation.
In fact, I think he told George

1609
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:46,280
Reynolds once in private that he
admired the grit of any woman

1610
01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:49,840
who was seeking to enter into
the principal during these days.

1611
01:42:50,160 --> 01:42:52,600
OK.
All right.

1612
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:54,880
Yeah.
Maybe not so.

1613
01:42:54,880 --> 01:43:03,400
Silent, but no evidence.
That he was involved with the.

1614
01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:05,760
Performing of any of them.
So gotcha.

1615
01:43:06,480 --> 01:43:09,280
Yeah, so he was better doing.
His job, in a way.

1616
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:12,200
Than Wilford Woodruff and Joseph
F Smith were.

1617
01:43:12,480 --> 01:43:15,880
Because we have plenty of
evidence from them now, at this

1618
01:43:15,880 --> 01:43:19,440
time has the.
Demographics of the quorum of

1619
01:43:19,440 --> 01:43:23,760
the 12 changed it all.
Is it still kind of 6/4 and then

1620
01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:27,640
you know, no.
The vast majority are for.

1621
01:43:28,200 --> 01:43:29,520
Plural marriage still at this
point.

1622
01:43:32,600 --> 01:43:34,720
In fact, you can even if you
give me a second.

1623
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:39,120
I can actually pull up who is
who at this exact point in time.

1624
01:43:43,960 --> 01:43:49,280
So we're dealing with 1898.
And.

1625
01:43:50,440 --> 01:43:52,320
Yeah, you have.
President Lorenzo.

1626
01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:55,000
Snow George Buchanan.
And Joseph F Smith in the First

1627
01:43:55,000 --> 01:43:57,240
Presidency?
That is a slam dunk for approval

1628
01:43:57,720 --> 01:44:01,080
all the way around.
You have Franklin D Richards,

1629
01:44:01,080 --> 01:44:03,520
still alive as president of the
Quorum of the 12.

1630
01:44:05,120 --> 01:44:08,920
You know, from Joseph Smith's
day, Brigham Young Junior

1631
01:44:11,960 --> 01:44:14,680
Francis M Lyman is. 3rd and
seniority in the quorum of the

1632
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:16,200
12.
And we've seen that up to this

1633
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:19,800
point, he is also in favor of
plural marriages, right?

1634
01:44:20,160 --> 01:44:23,440
John Henry Smith obviously
carrying them out in Mexico.

1635
01:44:23,800 --> 01:44:26,800
George Teasdale carrying them
out in Mexico.

1636
01:44:27,200 --> 01:44:29,720
Heber J.
Grant being told to carry them

1637
01:44:29,720 --> 01:44:35,600
out in Mexico by John Henry
Smith, John W Taylor, Mariner

1638
01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:39,200
Merrill, Anthony Schlund,
Matthias Cowley, Abraham Owen

1639
01:44:39,200 --> 01:44:42,480
Woodruff.
There is not a single member of

1640
01:44:42,480 --> 01:44:45,440
the First Presidency Reform of
the 12 that is not that has not

1641
01:44:45,440 --> 01:44:49,160
been involved or will not be
involved in the future in post

1642
01:44:49,160 --> 01:44:53,520
manifesto plural marriages.
Interesting my case.

1643
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:56,360
Point in, in, in.
September of 1898.

1644
01:44:57,800 --> 01:45:02,240
All right.
Are there any excommunications

1645
01:45:02,240 --> 01:45:08,640
going down at this point?
No, not that I'm aware of, OK.

1646
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:11,040
So very much.
Is, you know.

1647
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:13,480
We're going to keep this alive
and we're just going to be

1648
01:45:13,480 --> 01:45:16,760
really super quiet about it.
Yep, Yep.

1649
01:45:19,600 --> 01:45:23,960
In October of 1898, John W
Taylor becomes one of the first

1650
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:25,760
people, or one of the few
instances.

1651
01:45:25,760 --> 01:45:27,640
I shouldn't say first, because I
don't know when the first was.

1652
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:30,800
He becomes one of the very few
instances publicly where he is

1653
01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:36,680
not sustained unanimously in
conference because he offended

1654
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:39,960
some.
He offended the, the, I believe,

1655
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:43,200
basically what the time period's
equivalent of the Mormon

1656
01:45:43,200 --> 01:45:49,560
Tabernacle Choir was.
And in a conference talk, he

1657
01:45:50,160 --> 01:45:53,640
basically insinuated publicly
that there was some immorality

1658
01:45:53,640 --> 01:46:00,520
going on there and he told them
to repent, you know, and they

1659
01:46:00,520 --> 01:46:06,800
got really fired up and did not
like him and and apparently the

1660
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:09,000
way it was.
Said or.

1661
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:12,720
Delivered wasn't maybe his best
moment and he said later that I

1662
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:15,720
kind of put my foot in my mouth
on that one, you know, And

1663
01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:18,560
George Q Cannon got up after him
and kind of played some damn,

1664
01:46:18,560 --> 01:46:21,800
you know, damage control and
well, brother Taylor's been very

1665
01:46:21,800 --> 01:46:24,960
frank with us and so forth and
so on, but maybe this shouldn't

1666
01:46:24,960 --> 01:46:28,400
have been said in a public forum
or something like that in any

1667
01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:31,200
case.
But he there was some opposition

1668
01:46:31,200 --> 01:46:34,760
to his sustaining vote in that
conference.

1669
01:46:35,520 --> 01:46:40,800
I I'm sorry, I had a laugh.
I just imagined John W walking

1670
01:46:40,800 --> 01:46:45,440
by by President Cannon and
President Cannon going thanks

1671
01:46:45,480 --> 01:46:48,440
the SOB.
Now I got to fix this right

1672
01:46:50,360 --> 01:46:51,720
because because the other thing
you.

1673
01:46:51,720 --> 01:46:54,920
Get and maybe not.
So much during this time period,

1674
01:46:55,240 --> 01:47:00,880
but definitely later on when
when things become really hard

1675
01:47:00,880 --> 01:47:05,000
for people wanting to practice
plural marriage is that John W

1676
01:47:05,000 --> 01:47:09,640
Taylor essentially becomes a
pain in the ass to all those

1677
01:47:09,640 --> 01:47:13,480
trying to subvert plural
marriage.

1678
01:47:14,080 --> 01:47:18,240
He he he's a he.
This is not a guy you can paint

1679
01:47:18,240 --> 01:47:21,040
in pastel colors, right?
This guy's a firebrand.

1680
01:47:21,400 --> 01:47:25,560
He's going to let it fly come
hell or high water and and you

1681
01:47:25,560 --> 01:47:29,400
get the sense that he become
almost becomes a liability to

1682
01:47:29,400 --> 01:47:33,520
the status quo later down the
road he he does and it's yeah I

1683
01:47:33,520 --> 01:47:35,920
mean the.
Way that Samuel Wooley, his

1684
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:40,320
father-in-law put it to his
family is John W Taylor was

1685
01:47:40,320 --> 01:47:43,120
either born too early or too
late, right.

1686
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:45,520
You know, if he was, if he was
born during the days.

1687
01:47:45,520 --> 01:47:47,120
Of Joseph Smith he would have.
Flourished.

1688
01:47:47,480 --> 01:47:50,120
And maybe at some other future
day there will be a time where

1689
01:47:50,120 --> 01:47:52,640
he would have flourished.
But he, yeah, he was basically

1690
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:59,000
destined to come into conflict
with others of his peers.

1691
01:48:01,080 --> 01:48:06,240
After conference October 25th,
Apostle George Teasdale, you

1692
01:48:06,240 --> 01:48:10,920
know, residents Apostle down in
Mexico, marries his fifth wife

1693
01:48:11,760 --> 01:48:16,480
and it is performed upon the
high seas by Apostle Anthony H

1694
01:48:16,480 --> 01:48:21,920
Lund on the high seas.
On the high seas.

1695
01:48:21,920 --> 01:48:23,000
On a ship?
Yep.

1696
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:26,960
Wow.
Well, it's going to be.

1697
01:48:26,960 --> 01:48:30,240
Hard to get busted out there.
It's going to be hard to get

1698
01:48:30,240 --> 01:48:32,240
busted out there.
You can technically tell the.

1699
01:48:32,240 --> 01:48:34,360
People, the government, that we
were not married in the United

1700
01:48:34,360 --> 01:48:39,600
States, all of that, and which
is why it was done.

1701
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:42,880
And this is the first record I
have of Anthony Schwund

1702
01:48:42,880 --> 01:48:50,200
performing a plural marriage.
But he was made aware of that

1703
01:48:50,200 --> 01:48:53,200
being done earlier because
Wilford Woodruff himself took a

1704
01:48:53,200 --> 01:48:55,840
plural wife under the same
circumstances a year earlier

1705
01:48:55,960 --> 01:48:58,800
before he died.
You know, it's really economical

1706
01:48:59,160 --> 01:49:01,240
because you can.
Go ahead and have your wedding

1707
01:49:01,240 --> 01:49:04,000
at sea and then you go on a
cruise for your honeymoon.

1708
01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:07,400
I'm just saying there's there's
there's some wisdom there.

1709
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:15,320
Yeah, there sure is.
Right around that time and John

1710
01:49:15,320 --> 01:49:20,160
W Taylor and Nettie move back.
You know, he's released from his

1711
01:49:20,160 --> 01:49:23,320
mission in Colorado and so they
go back to Farmington, UT.

1712
01:49:24,880 --> 01:49:28,080
Going into the next year,
Matthias Cowley marries his

1713
01:49:28,080 --> 01:49:33,480
third wife, Harriet Benyon.
So another relation to modern

1714
01:49:33,480 --> 01:49:36,000
church hierarchy.
You know in the Benyon Irene

1715
01:49:36,000 --> 01:49:42,720
family when.
When later asked, many years

1716
01:49:42,720 --> 01:49:45,120
down the road.
In his trial, who performed that

1717
01:49:45,120 --> 01:49:47,920
marriage to his, you know,
Cowley's marriage to his third

1718
01:49:47,920 --> 01:49:52,240
wife?
He said, quote, Brother Merrill

1719
01:49:52,320 --> 01:49:56,520
put me under solemn covenant
binding me not to tell I was

1720
01:49:56,520 --> 01:49:59,280
married in the Logan Temple.
So I leave you to guess the

1721
01:49:59,280 --> 01:50:07,280
rest, which is a very much not
veiled but jokingly failed way

1722
01:50:07,280 --> 01:50:10,160
of saying Mariner Merrill
married me in the Logan Temple

1723
01:50:10,400 --> 01:50:14,640
because he was Temple President
and he was he had been

1724
01:50:14,640 --> 01:50:16,560
performing several.
You know, the first one as we

1725
01:50:16,560 --> 01:50:25,520
mentioned earlier was in June of
1894 and he's, he definitely had

1726
01:50:25,520 --> 01:50:30,240
a record for sure, brother
Merrill in performing polygamous

1727
01:50:30,240 --> 01:50:32,640
ceilings in the Logan Temple
during his lifetime.

1728
01:50:34,880 --> 01:50:36,200
I don't have an exact count, so
don't.

1729
01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:38,760
Ask, but there was a few.
Of them he seems to be a

1730
01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:40,760
stalwart, right?
His name gets.

1731
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:44,680
Tossed around quite a bit, Yeah,
no, he's one of my favorites, I

1732
01:50:44,680 --> 01:50:48,720
think.
In January of 1890.

1733
01:50:48,720 --> 01:50:52,040
Nine in a meeting of.
The 12th Apostle, Franklin D

1734
01:50:52,040 --> 01:50:56,240
Richards, promises Owen Woodruff
that all of God's promises to

1735
01:50:56,240 --> 01:51:01,080
him will come to pass, knowing
that Owen Woodruff had just

1736
01:51:01,080 --> 01:51:03,720
received a new patriarchal
blessing which stated that he

1737
01:51:03,720 --> 01:51:06,200
would have plural wives, which
he did not currently have.

1738
01:51:06,800 --> 01:51:15,120
Interesting.
April 25th, 1899.

1739
01:51:15,720 --> 01:51:25,280
Hebrew J Grant, says I.
Think this is from his journal.

1740
01:51:25,560 --> 01:51:27,920
Talk much on polygamy.
And intimated that he would

1741
01:51:27,920 --> 01:51:31,440
perform the ceremony in Mexico
for any man who did not have any

1742
01:51:31,440 --> 01:51:35,400
children, though he said that
president would not consent to

1743
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:39,640
it referring.
So what he was doing was he was

1744
01:51:39,640 --> 01:51:40,480
talking.
To this is.

1745
01:51:42,040 --> 01:51:44,720
So funny.
He was visiting the Mission

1746
01:51:44,720 --> 01:51:49,280
field in California and talking
to elders because back then.

1747
01:51:49,280 --> 01:51:51,480
You didn't just send boys.
Out to go.

1748
01:51:52,280 --> 01:51:57,200
You know teach the gospel.
And he's he's talking to married

1749
01:51:57,200 --> 01:51:58,880
men presumably, who don't have
children right now.

1750
01:51:58,880 --> 01:52:02,560
He's telling them I will go down
and perform a ceiling in Mexico

1751
01:52:02,560 --> 01:52:04,800
for you if you don't tell your
mission president.

1752
01:52:05,360 --> 01:52:10,360
That's awesome and.
And and who?

1753
01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:12,160
Who was that?
Again saying he'd do that, John.

1754
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:16,120
W Taylor No, that was Hebrew J
Grant, dude.

1755
01:52:16,720 --> 01:52:18,240
See, Heber had so.
Much.

1756
01:52:18,360 --> 01:52:22,320
Promise, right?
I mean, he and George Teasdale

1757
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:24,320
were called by revelation at the
same time.

1758
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:29,840
To John Taylor, Yeah, had.
So much potential.

1759
01:52:29,840 --> 01:52:31,240
And then he.
Screwed up the end.

1760
01:52:31,240 --> 01:52:33,640
Game.
Yeah, Kind of.

1761
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:34,640
Kind of.
Sort of.

1762
01:52:38,280 --> 01:52:41,040
The president of Rick's College.
Now known as BYU.

1763
01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:50,800
Idaho at this time in May 1899,
was sealed to his third wife by

1764
01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:53,680
Apostle Matthias.
Cowley after conferring.

1765
01:52:53,680 --> 01:52:57,680
With Mariner W Merrill about it.
So he arranged the whole deal.

1766
01:52:57,680 --> 01:53:05,520
Apostle Merrill June 15th, 1899.
Local 70s president of Davis

1767
01:53:05,520 --> 01:53:09,120
County Jaren Pullman and his
fourth married his fourth wife

1768
01:53:12,440 --> 01:53:19,760
and it looks like I don't have
an officiator written there, but

1769
01:53:20,040 --> 01:53:22,320
remember the name Tolman?
By the way, he's the.

1770
01:53:22,320 --> 01:53:25,760
Son of a very He's the son of a
very important person later on.

1771
01:53:26,680 --> 01:53:29,120
But I was also going to mention,
and I forgot to mention because

1772
01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:32,920
I skipped over it, I guess.
So it disrupts the narrative I

1773
01:53:32,920 --> 01:53:36,680
wanted to have earlier, but I'll
go back and talk when in Mission

1774
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:44,360
Field in Colorado and when.
Nettie was having.

1775
01:53:44,360 --> 01:53:47,800
Her baby.
They sent her sister Phoebe

1776
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:50,960
Woolley out to go take care of
her while she was pregnant.

1777
01:53:51,800 --> 01:53:55,680
Phoebe Woolley, who was living
and taking care of her sister,

1778
01:53:57,080 --> 01:54:00,360
becomes very important also
later, in the same way almost

1779
01:54:00,360 --> 01:54:02,560
that the Tolman name becomes
important, which is what

1780
01:54:02,560 --> 01:54:07,160
reminded me.
Phoebe Woolley marries a return

1781
01:54:07,280 --> 01:54:11,800
missionary later who served in
the same mission at the same

1782
01:54:11,800 --> 01:54:14,520
time as Joseph Musser.
Interesting.

1783
01:54:15,160 --> 01:54:21,960
Yeah, we'll get to that July
11th. 1899 Apostle Mariner

1784
01:54:21,960 --> 01:54:24,120
Merrill tells the. 12 At a
quarterly meeting that the

1785
01:54:24,120 --> 01:54:27,120
Manifesto is not a revelation
from God, and that plural

1786
01:54:27,120 --> 01:54:30,120
children will always be born in
the Church from year to year for

1787
01:54:30,120 --> 01:54:33,400
all time to come.
Nice.

1788
01:54:34,040 --> 01:54:37,160
Yeah.
October 7th, 18. 99 President,

1789
01:54:37,600 --> 01:54:43,120
Mission president Louis A Kelsch
senior and second wife are

1790
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:46,240
married in Salt Lake by Matthias
Kelly.

1791
01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:49,480
OK, do you know who Louis Kelsh
is?

1792
01:54:50,120 --> 01:54:53,120
Oh yeah, he.
Becomes he, becomes a major.

1793
01:54:53,120 --> 01:54:55,000
Figure in fundamentalism down
the road.

1794
01:54:55,720 --> 01:54:58,400
So you may be thinking of his
son, Louis.

1795
01:54:58,400 --> 01:55:01,200
Alma Kelsch junior, who becomes
a member of Lauren Wooley's

1796
01:55:01,200 --> 01:55:04,600
Council of Friends.
But this is yeah, this is his

1797
01:55:04,600 --> 01:55:11,360
father but he is very
instrumental in the in the well.

1798
01:55:11,800 --> 01:55:15,280
I don't know how instrumental
but very supportive of the

1799
01:55:15,280 --> 01:55:17,840
underground polygamous movement.
Gotcha, very supportive.

1800
01:55:18,480 --> 01:55:22,160
So I have a question for.
You and and this is going to

1801
01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:23,840
span.
This entire.

1802
01:55:23,840 --> 01:55:29,480
History here.
Do we ever see any instances of

1803
01:55:30,440 --> 01:55:33,400
anybody inside the church?
Any member.

1804
01:55:33,400 --> 01:55:38,000
Of the 12 or anything like that,
arranging marriages like you

1805
01:55:38,000 --> 01:55:41,720
should marry so and so, that's a
good question.

1806
01:55:43,480 --> 01:55:48,920
I know in early early history,
if you call Nauvoo and early

1807
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:52,480
Utah early history.
I know I come from at least one

1808
01:55:52,480 --> 01:55:55,280
of those marriages where Brigham
Young arranged.

1809
01:55:55,280 --> 01:55:57,800
I don't, I don't know how
strongly it was arranged, but it

1810
01:55:57,800 --> 01:55:59,880
was definitely different
circumstances.

1811
01:56:02,080 --> 01:56:04,800
But it did at least happen, at
least in that one instance.

1812
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:08,640
And it probably happened in
others, but it definitely, from

1813
01:56:08,640 --> 01:56:11,960
what I've seen, doesn't seem to
be a normal thing, right?

1814
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:15,720
I've encountered a few of.
Them, but they seem to be more

1815
01:56:15,720 --> 01:56:20,280
outliers than the norm.
Is that kind of where you're

1816
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:23,000
you're seeing as well?
Yeah, I don't.

1817
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:25,760
I don't see a ton of arranged.
Marriages.

1818
01:56:26,400 --> 01:56:30,520
OK, right after this.
In 1899, John.

1819
01:56:30,520 --> 01:56:34,800
W Taylor ordains a man named
John Anthony Wolf, a patriarch,

1820
01:56:35,680 --> 01:56:40,120
a few years down the road.
He gets commissioned by Joseph F

1821
01:56:40,120 --> 01:56:42,680
Smith to perform plural
marriages in Canada when John W

1822
01:56:42,680 --> 01:56:48,840
Taylor's Pretty Much Not There.
December 12th, 1899.

1823
01:56:50,560 --> 01:56:53,360
Owen Woodruff.
Performs the first plural

1824
01:56:53,360 --> 01:56:55,960
marriage.
Ceiling that I'm aware of for

1825
01:56:55,960 --> 01:57:00,920
Alvin David Nelson and his
second wife down in Colonia

1826
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:10,640
Oaxaca in Wara, Stake of Zion.
And so it's so interesting to

1827
01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:12,400
me, there's.
A we're going to really get

1828
01:57:12,400 --> 01:57:14,120
into.
So I have some of Owen

1829
01:57:14,120 --> 01:57:16,800
Woodruff's journal accounts and
and entries and all this preface

1830
01:57:16,800 --> 01:57:18,920
we're about to get into some of
those so I'll just preface it

1831
01:57:19,400 --> 01:57:21,840
first.
But you know brought in as a

1832
01:57:21,840 --> 01:57:25,680
young man 262728 whatever he was
into a form of the 12.

1833
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:30,680
He's a monogamist, and he's
literally in a quorum filled

1834
01:57:30,680 --> 01:57:33,280
with polygamist or pro
polygamist people.

1835
01:57:34,520 --> 01:57:37,160
But.
And what else could you have

1836
01:57:37,160 --> 01:57:39,480
expected?
But yeah, he gets, he pretty

1837
01:57:39,480 --> 01:57:42,480
much gets taken under the wing
of John W Taylor and Matthias

1838
01:57:42,480 --> 01:57:49,120
Cowley in particular.
And as the tide starts changing,

1839
01:57:49,400 --> 01:57:55,160
he is pretty loyal to them.
The real tragedy is that he dies

1840
01:57:55,680 --> 01:57:58,440
right after the second manifesto
at a very young age.

1841
01:57:58,440 --> 01:58:00,120
He was like 33 years old.
Wow.

1842
01:58:02,160 --> 01:58:07,440
Yeah, smallpox otherwise.
The game could have been

1843
01:58:07,440 --> 01:58:09,800
severely.
Different to have a protege of

1844
01:58:09,800 --> 01:58:13,160
John W Taylor and Matthias
Calley in the form of the 12

1845
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:16,640
after they got cut off.
Oh yeah, would have been a big

1846
01:58:16,640 --> 01:58:18,640
game changer.
Or they would have just.

1847
01:58:18,640 --> 01:58:20,720
Text him too.
Yeah, and he.

1848
01:58:20,720 --> 01:58:21,880
Probably.
And he could have gotten into

1849
01:58:21,880 --> 01:58:23,600
that circumstance.
Too, but he would have lived a

1850
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:26,480
lot longer than they did because
he was, you know, half, he was

1851
01:58:26,480 --> 01:58:30,200
half their age at this point.
So yeah, he's he performs that

1852
01:58:30,200 --> 01:58:33,640
ceremony in Mexico in December
of 1899.

1853
01:58:36,600 --> 01:58:39,400
Rodney Badger is a guy.
That we're going to talk about

1854
01:58:39,400 --> 01:58:40,720
later.
During the Reed Smooth hearings,

1855
01:58:40,720 --> 01:58:44,520
I believe that he is down.
No, he doesn't go down to

1856
01:58:44,520 --> 01:58:46,040
Mexico.
He gets married in Salt Lake

1857
01:58:46,040 --> 01:58:49,600
City to his third wife by
Matthias Cowley.

1858
01:58:50,280 --> 01:58:53,920
I believe he ends up being Reed
Smooth's attorney, and if it

1859
01:58:53,920 --> 01:58:56,160
wasn't him, it was his brother
or someone else.

1860
01:58:56,160 --> 01:58:58,320
But I'm pretty sure that was
Rodney Badger becomes Reed

1861
01:58:58,320 --> 01:59:01,240
Smooth's attorney or not.
Not attorney clerk.

1862
01:59:01,480 --> 01:59:05,520
In any case, Matthias Cowley
also performs a ceiling for him.

1863
01:59:08,520 --> 01:59:13,360
Let's see during during a
quarterly meeting in January.

1864
01:59:13,360 --> 01:59:19,160
1900 Mariner.
Merrill says, Speaking of the

1865
01:59:19,160 --> 01:59:22,880
principle of plural marriage,
said it had to come to it had

1866
01:59:22,880 --> 01:59:26,840
come to stay in one form or
another, you know, That's what

1867
01:59:26,840 --> 01:59:30,120
he had to say to them.
So this guy's hammering him, you

1868
01:59:30,120 --> 01:59:33,080
know, I don't know how he didn't
get cut off because obviously

1869
01:59:33,080 --> 01:59:35,040
there's some sort of cop,
there's some sort of

1870
01:59:35,040 --> 01:59:38,280
conversation going on because
this is the third or fourth time

1871
01:59:38,280 --> 01:59:41,440
in the last few years we're
seeing him bring that up in

1872
01:59:41,440 --> 01:59:46,360
meeting and this there will be
children to the end, born in

1873
01:59:46,360 --> 01:59:49,120
plural marriage to the end of
days in the church.

1874
01:59:49,120 --> 01:59:53,840
Or this is coming and it's
staying in one form or another,

1875
01:59:54,160 --> 01:59:56,320
right?
He's, he's, he's he's kind of

1876
01:59:56,320 --> 01:59:58,760
giving him the business.
That we're not backing down off

1877
01:59:58,760 --> 02:00:02,280
this, right?
And he never.

1878
02:00:02,280 --> 02:00:03,240
Did he?
Never.

1879
02:00:03,240 --> 02:00:06,680
Did he died about nineteen O 7
or so.

1880
02:00:06,680 --> 02:00:10,160
And we'll get, you know, seven
years down the road right after

1881
02:00:10,160 --> 02:00:13,800
that, John Brigham Young Junior
tells.

1882
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:17,440
In fact, I think it's the same
two days later, Two days later,

1883
02:00:17,640 --> 02:00:21,600
from that meeting, Brigham Young
Junior tells Owen Woodruff that

1884
02:00:21,600 --> 02:00:24,400
the time that plural marriage
will be restored.

1885
02:00:24,600 --> 02:00:32,320
You know, Eric quotes and in
that meeting.

1886
02:00:32,400 --> 02:00:34,160
Or after that meeting or on the
same day of.

1887
02:00:34,280 --> 02:00:40,520
That meeting after hearing
Brother Mary or Merrill say what

1888
02:00:40,520 --> 02:00:45,120
he had to say in hearing Apostle
Brigham Young Junior tell him

1889
02:00:45,120 --> 02:00:51,120
what was, You know what he said,
he writes down in his journal I.

1890
02:00:51,120 --> 02:00:53,480
Absolutely know that a number of
the brethren.

1891
02:00:53,760 --> 02:00:58,280
Among them, John W Taylor,
George Teasdale, and Matthias F

1892
02:00:58,280 --> 02:01:00,840
Calley entertained feelings in
harmony with my own.

1893
02:01:01,560 --> 02:01:04,760
I owe my existence to the
principle of polygamy, and I

1894
02:01:04,760 --> 02:01:07,920
have some intense feelings
regarding the sustaining of that

1895
02:01:07,920 --> 02:01:11,040
principle.
I am indebted to that principle

1896
02:01:11,080 --> 02:01:15,680
for my life, and anytime my
father wants my life to defend

1897
02:01:15,680 --> 02:01:18,320
that principle and those who
practice it in righteousness,

1898
02:01:18,600 --> 02:01:21,080
God being my helper, it is at
his command.

1899
02:01:21,440 --> 02:01:24,160
Wow.
Wow.

1900
02:01:24,240 --> 02:01:29,040
Laying it down hard.
So in that same meeting, that's

1901
02:01:29,040 --> 02:01:32,560
when.
President Lorenzo Snow had said

1902
02:01:32,560 --> 02:01:44,080
in that meeting basically any
person who disobeys.

1903
02:01:44,080 --> 02:01:47,240
The law to polygamy.
Or unlawful cohabitation.

1904
02:01:47,240 --> 02:01:52,040
He must bear his own burden and
stuff like you've been telling

1905
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:53,880
him.
You know, you guys do not have

1906
02:01:53,880 --> 02:01:56,680
my sanction to perform plural
marriages at this point.

1907
02:01:57,040 --> 02:02:00,040
And so that's what kind of gets
the reaction out of Brother

1908
02:02:00,040 --> 02:02:02,560
Meryl.
That's what gets Brigham Young

1909
02:02:02,560 --> 02:02:05,560
Junior to make that promise to
Owen Woodruff.

1910
02:02:06,680 --> 02:02:11,920
And Owen Woodruff is confiding
to his diary.

1911
02:02:11,960 --> 02:02:15,120
You know that he knows.
That there are some men who are

1912
02:02:15,120 --> 02:02:18,520
stalwarts in the form that feel
the same way that he does at

1913
02:02:18,520 --> 02:02:26,120
this point.
What What is your general

1914
02:02:26,120 --> 02:02:29,200
feeling on Brigham?
On Brigham Young Junior, is he

1915
02:02:29,960 --> 02:02:33,560
all about this as well?
Yeah, I think.

1916
02:02:35,480 --> 02:02:37,920
I think the way he says.
That to Owen Woodruff.

1917
02:02:37,920 --> 02:02:40,080
That polygamy will be restored
is interesting.

1918
02:02:40,280 --> 02:02:43,160
And that's the narrative I
always heard in my in my.

1919
02:02:45,080 --> 02:02:47,760
But we've already seen from this
episode that he took.

1920
02:02:47,880 --> 02:02:50,840
I think he's taken at least two
wives, if not one.

1921
02:02:50,840 --> 02:02:52,440
One for sure.
I remember reading that to you,

1922
02:02:53,240 --> 02:02:57,080
one if not two wives himself.
And he's performed other

1923
02:02:57,080 --> 02:03:01,320
ceilings down in Mexico visiting
with George Teasdale and what

1924
02:03:01,320 --> 02:03:04,160
have you.
And he was very much in favor of

1925
02:03:04,200 --> 02:03:09,120
of and he's in the loop.
And like I said earlier, these

1926
02:03:09,120 --> 02:03:11,680
things have.
Become relatively.

1927
02:03:11,680 --> 02:03:14,160
Compartmentalized where it's not
like.

1928
02:03:14,840 --> 02:03:18,440
The funny thing is we have
evidence at this time showing

1929
02:03:18,680 --> 02:03:21,440
that every member of the forum
at that point was pretty much

1930
02:03:21,440 --> 02:03:25,680
either endorsing, arranging, or
performing post manifesto plural

1931
02:03:25,680 --> 02:03:29,160
marriages, but that they were
not aware that every single one

1932
02:03:29,160 --> 02:03:30,760
of the others was also doing
that.

1933
02:03:31,520 --> 02:03:33,600
Which would?
There's probably wisdom there,

1934
02:03:33,600 --> 02:03:36,960
right?
Because if, if, if you don't

1935
02:03:36,960 --> 02:03:39,040
know, you can't spill those
beans.

1936
02:03:40,000 --> 02:03:42,680
And so Brigham Young junior
probably said the way that the

1937
02:03:42,680 --> 02:03:44,280
way.
He did to Owen Woodruff, who's

1938
02:03:44,280 --> 02:03:48,040
now the youngest member of the
Quorum, who, not knowing how

1939
02:03:48,040 --> 02:03:51,920
much he knew regarding what was
going on, if that makes sense,

1940
02:03:52,080 --> 02:03:52,880
right?
Yeah.

1941
02:03:55,120 --> 02:03:58,040
Yeah, I'm just.
I'm surprised that like.

1942
02:03:58,040 --> 02:04:01,120
Brigham Young Junior doesn't get
excommunicated When?

1943
02:04:02,440 --> 02:04:04,480
When?
John W.

1944
02:04:04,480 --> 02:04:07,680
Does as well.
He dies too, too soon.

1945
02:04:07,880 --> 02:04:10,680
Oh.
OK, that's why right at.

1946
02:04:11,040 --> 02:04:13,200
The end of the century, like
we're about to.

1947
02:04:13,200 --> 02:04:16,920
See the and we'll get to the
next episode, but we're going to

1948
02:04:16,920 --> 02:04:20,640
see a huge drop off in the
popular support right now.

1949
02:04:20,640 --> 02:04:23,240
Like like this is we're entering
into that territory in the time

1950
02:04:23,240 --> 02:04:26,560
frame where George Buchanan is
about to die.

1951
02:04:26,880 --> 02:04:32,280
Abraham Owen, Abraham Cannon had
died just before this, but I

1952
02:04:32,280 --> 02:04:34,320
didn't make notation of that.
But he was a member of the

1953
02:04:34,320 --> 02:04:40,480
Quorum who was supporting it.
Lorenzo Snow is about to die.

1954
02:04:41,080 --> 02:04:44,920
George Buchanan's about to die.
Mariner Merrill dies in about

1955
02:04:44,920 --> 02:04:48,080
5-6 seven years.
George Teasdale dies in about

1956
02:04:48,080 --> 02:04:50,520
5-6, seven years from this
point.

1957
02:04:51,960 --> 02:04:56,000
Owen Woodruff dies in four years
from this point at the young age

1958
02:04:56,000 --> 02:05:02,800
of 33 or something, And instead
of it being a stacked deck of

1959
02:05:02,800 --> 02:05:04,320
cards.
In favor of.

1960
02:05:04,320 --> 02:05:08,320
Polygamy.
You end up with a few guys like

1961
02:05:08,320 --> 02:05:13,440
Joseph F Smith, Anthony H Lund,
John W Taylor, Matthias Cowley

1962
02:05:14,720 --> 02:05:18,160
and Rutgers Lawson, and they're
the ones holding the line

1963
02:05:18,160 --> 02:05:19,880
essentially.
At that point pretty.

1964
02:05:20,120 --> 02:05:27,400
Pretty much at that point, yeah.
But authority then begins to be

1965
02:05:27,400 --> 02:05:31,560
dispersed.
To other individuals in other

1966
02:05:31,560 --> 02:05:35,040
forums, like high priest forums
or patriarchs in this at the

1967
02:05:35,040 --> 02:05:39,520
state level, and it's more
distributed at that point and

1968
02:05:39,520 --> 02:05:41,480
we'll get into that later.
Do you have any other questions

1969
02:05:41,480 --> 02:05:45,200
or commentary or rude remarks?
No, no, no, I'm.

1970
02:05:45,200 --> 02:05:47,440
I'm keeping the rest of my rude.
Remarks for later.

1971
02:05:48,120 --> 02:05:51,000
So I was.
I had a mission companion who

1972
02:05:51,000 --> 02:05:52,080
always say that at the end of
the.

1973
02:05:52,080 --> 02:05:53,480
Lesson.
Any questions?

1974
02:05:53,480 --> 02:05:56,440
Concerns, rude remarks.
That's right, right.

1975
02:05:56,440 --> 02:05:58,480
No, you gotta spread those.
Out.

1976
02:05:58,480 --> 02:06:00,080
You can't use them all in one
shot.

1977
02:06:00,080 --> 02:06:02,400
So.
You you gotta have them equally

1978
02:06:02,720 --> 02:06:05,000
distributed throughout this
series here.

1979
02:06:06,280 --> 02:06:09,200
All right, Well, dude, that was
good stuff.

1980
02:06:09,200 --> 02:06:11,600
Anything you wanna go over for
this episode more than what we

1981
02:06:11,600 --> 02:06:13,560
covered?
I don't know.

1982
02:06:13,560 --> 02:06:15,840
I think we can start back with
another one and we'll go into a

1983
02:06:15,840 --> 02:06:17,120
more.
Detailed account of those

1984
02:06:17,120 --> 02:06:20,200
meetings being held at the turn
of the the 20th century from

1985
02:06:20,200 --> 02:06:23,600
Owen Woodruff's journals.
Yeah, in gold.

1986
02:06:24,000 --> 02:06:27,360
Go over that Tolman name.
Yeah, we're going to get into

1987
02:06:27,360 --> 02:06:32,920
that very soon.
And like I said, we're.

1988
02:06:33,080 --> 02:06:35,520
We're now.
We're basically where we've

1989
02:06:35,520 --> 02:06:39,920
approached the end nearly of
where the 12 are pretty much in

1990
02:06:39,920 --> 02:06:43,720
harmony over the principle
existing secretly.

1991
02:06:43,760 --> 02:06:48,640
And we will begin to see
contention and division as

1992
02:06:48,640 --> 02:06:54,080
people are replaced and that and
or die and are replaced and as

1993
02:06:54,080 --> 02:06:57,760
the politics become more
increasingly complex again.

1994
02:06:58,520 --> 02:07:00,480
Yeah.
And and I think this is this

1995
02:07:00,480 --> 02:07:04,040
next episode, Will.
Be where where we get to see

1996
02:07:05,120 --> 02:07:09,280
John John W Taylor really begin
to start coming into his own

1997
02:07:09,680 --> 02:07:13,640
right, because he is gonna stand
out and become more pronounced

1998
02:07:14,200 --> 02:07:18,040
over the next little while.
But dude, good stuff.

1999
02:07:18,640 --> 02:07:21,360
Can't wait for next time?
Sure.

2000
02:07:21,920 --> 02:07:23,040
Awesome.
All right.

2001
02:07:23,040 --> 02:07:56,040
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2002
02:07:56,040 --> 02:07:57,360
Renegade podcast.