Episode #113: The Life & Times Of John W. Taylor Part 1-The Persecution Of The Saints In Utah & The Road To The Manifesto W/Michael Ness

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So last year, you'll remember I
sat down with Michael Ness and

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had a conversation about Joseph
W Mustard.

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Now I got a lot of great
feedback from that episode.

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So with that in mind, I decided
that I wanted to put out more

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content like this, which dealt
with Mormon fundamentalist

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history and its prominent
players.

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This time, Michael joins me
again as we discuss John W

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Taylor.
Now, we anticipate that this

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will be a two to three-part
series.

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On this first installment about
John W Taylor, we cover all the

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events that led up to John W
Taylor's ministry.

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Buckle up, because you're about
to get a master class in the

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time period around the
persecution of those early

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Saints by the United States
government, which would

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ultimately give rise to the
manifesto and the birth of

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modern Mormon fundamentalism.
By the end of this episode you

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will have a greater
understanding for those

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persecutions and in turn our own
history as Mormon

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fundamentalists.
That and more on this edition of

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the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse.

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To become and raise men and
women of virtue and character is

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a Herculean task.
To help with this, I have

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recently wrote and published a
book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com, go to the

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bottom of the page, search out
the blog post, and order your

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copy.
Today, I can bear personal

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testimony from personal
experience that this is an

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invaluable tool to help you
raise men and women of virtue

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and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Michael, what's going on?

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Namash just excited to finally
get on.

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Dude, I'll tell you what, I'm
jacked up for this one.

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I've been teed up for this one
all week.

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So the stuff we get on Musser
and I had somebody who everybody

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would know their name, a
historian, come to me and said

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after he listened to the two
episodes we did on on on Joseph

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Muster say that it may have been
to this point, until maybe

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Christina releases her book, the
most definitive work that had

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been done on Joseph W Muster to
that point.

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So it was pretty high praise,
and I have a feeling that we're

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about to dive into another man
from the same time period who's

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done so much for preserving the
gospel.

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And that's John W Taylor.
Yeah.

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When you, when you asked me
about if I knew anyone who could

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do an episode on Joseph Monster,
I never would have thought I

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would have done an episode on
him.

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And it was just kind of like
that when I thought about it and

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I was like, you know what, I'll
leave it a swing, right?

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But it turned out and and you
and I both, I think we were both

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very edified with the discussion
of the context that came out

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throughout that and that.
Like I said, it wasn't anything

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I had intended to do or to focus
on, but that was definitely like

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that.
That feeling got me through the

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research on this one because I
know, I know it'll be a good

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payoff because it was this one
took a while.

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I don't know.
I don't know when we put out the

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Muster stuff, but I started
looking into this one right

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after and it's taken a minute,
but it's like you're saying it's

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the same time period, but but
before a little bit, there's a

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little bit of overlap.
And we're going to get into a

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lot of we're going to talk about
more about Joseph Muster, we're

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going to talk about a lot of
people.

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That's not Joseph, John W
Taylor.

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Anything that will really be
necessary to bring up the

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context of the world that we're
dealing with at this point is

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going to be brought up.
Nice.

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Well, dude, let's tear into it.
I'm excited.

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Yeah, no doubt so.
John W Taylor.

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That's John Whitaker.
Taylor was born on May 15th,

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1858 to Sophia Whitaker, who was
the fifth wife of President John

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John Taylor.
And John W Taylor was born

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during the Utah War and in the
city of Provo.

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He was ordained to the
apostleship by his father at the

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age of 25 and was candidly
referred to as the prophet of

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the Quorum or the People's
Apostle.

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He was very popular.
In fact, his grandson, you know,

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his son relates that pretty much
he was the kind of person that

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you were lifelong friends with
him or you felt like you were

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going to be.
You know that you were lifelong

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friends with John W Taylor after
you met him for like an hour and

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talked with him for an hour.
Just.

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Really engaging and sincere and.
But he was called the Prophet of

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the Quorum because he very
frequently made public and

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private prophecies, and he was
notoriously correct.

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Really.
Yeah, When?

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When he was, when he would go
and do that.

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So he definitely had that gift.
Before we.

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Before we go into John W,
though, I'd like to talk about

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John Taylor, his father, a
little bit.

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What do you know?
Do you have anything interesting

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on John Taylor?
Dude, John Taylor.

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I don't have any interesting
Nuggets of information, but just

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from a personal standpoint, the
man was absolutely gangster in

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his stance in protecting the the
the fullness of the gospel,

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right.
I mean, this was the guy who was

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not going to budget.
You know, I I, when I went back

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east, when I went out to Nauvoo
in Missouri last summer, we

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stopped off in Nauvoo and I got
to sit in his house for a few

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minutes and dude, he's he
absolutely is one of my heroes.

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But I have no Nuggets of history
or information.

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Fair enough.
All right, I'll tell you a

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little.
I'll tell you what I got off the

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top of my head.
He was a primitivist as far as

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Christianity goes, at least in
his early early years.

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Right?
And he He was born in England.

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What's a primitive?
Explained he he was looking for

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the ancient church and did not.
He was one of those who didn't

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believe that the church as it
was in the days of Christ, was

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really on the earth, and they
were looking.

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He was among others in America
and in England who were looking

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for something that looked more
like biblical Christianity.

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You know, scriptural
Christianity without creeds, you

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know the creeds that
Christianity had.

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And he moved to Toronto, Canada,
because his desire was to go to

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America and preach the gospel as
far as he understood it.

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And he was a Carpenter by trade
at least at one point in his

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life when he was in Toronto,
that was his business for a

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point.
And let's see, he and he liked

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to garden.
That's what I was thinking of.

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He liked to garden.
He he was attending these

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meetings and I wouldn't call it
a church, I don't think it was a

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church per SE, but they were or
revival type meetings, more like

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Sunday school type meetings with
others that kind of felt

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similarly when Harley Pete Pratt
shows up in Toronto, you know,

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and I believe he actually
knocked doors on the Taylor

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residence before he was invited
to speak there and it was either

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John Taylor or his wife.
Turned.

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Carly away?
Really.

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And I don't know if it was John
or if it was his wife and he

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wasn't home or what.
What?

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I don't recall.
It's been like 7 years since

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I've read Carly P Pratt's
autobiography where that was

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mentioned.
But in any case, he ends up

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getting invited by someone else
to a meeting where John Taylor,

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and he's there, you know and
watch, is partly preach.

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OK.
He was invited to preach at that

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at that congregation, and I
wanted to bring up John Taylor's

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belief system, seeking after
primitive or original

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Christianity shows you he would
have been well versed in the

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Bible.
Right.

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Especially, you know, wanting to
preach the gospel.

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You have to be you know, he
knows his stuff, he knows the

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scriptures, and he was one of
the people who went on record as

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saying, and once I read the Book
of Mormon after hearing what

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Parley taught or the elders
taught, I can find no

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contradiction with the the
revealed word of God in the

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Bible.
There is no contradiction

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between Mormonism and what I
know to be true.

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So he really puts it through the
paces because this is really

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what it's about for him.
I mean he immigrates from

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England for the very purpose of
trying to preach the gospel and

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find quote the primitive church,
the church that resembles most

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likely that which was
established by Jesus.

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Yep, absolutely.
And so this is, it's almost like

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it would be too good to be true,
right?

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This is what you've been looking
for your whole life.

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And now it's right in front of
you, right?

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An apostle of Jesus Christ
declaring your all your hopes

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and dreams coming true, you
know?

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And so if that was me, I would
be a little skeptical, probably,

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at least with the at least a
healthy amount of skepticism.

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In any case, he he converted.
He ends up becoming the

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presiding elder of the branch of
the church in Toronto.

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And I don't know how long it was
that he stayed in that

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leadership position during that
point because of his involvement

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with church affairs.
His wife started getting a

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little paranoid that they would
fail financially because he

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wasn't working and doing his,
his carpentry stuff.

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You know, it was making and
selling furniture and doing the

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things that he would normally do
because he was so focused on

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church business.
And then right around the time

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where the Kirtland apostasy
happens and the the leadership

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move to far West Missouri.
He's still presiding elder in

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Toronto but a man named Samson
Avery comes up from Kirtland or

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from Missouri.
I think he was in Missouri and

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tells John Taylor that you've
been relieved of your of your

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you know of your office right
here in Joseph wants to do a

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Kirtland and apparently that's
not true.

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Oh yeah.
And I don't know if Samson A

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Bird was to relieve and take his
place as the branch president.

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I don't recall now.
But in any case, he was told

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that he was, that there was a
change in the in the local

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leadership.
And I mean, it's kind of

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tentatively true because at this
point in time, although I don't

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think Samson A Bird knew it and
John Taylor didn't know it, but

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Joseph Smith had just gotten a
revelation, which is in Section

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118 now, which was calling John
Taylor to be an apostle.

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OK, now has Joseph and and John
Taylor met by this point?

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Yeah, they had.
They had met at this point at

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least once.
I believe Joe Joseph had been up

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to Toronto on a visit, and I
don't know how often John Taylor

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was able to go down to Kirtland
at all.

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I wasn't very often, if at all.
In fact, he was not able to

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attend the solemn assembly in
the Kirtland Temple because he

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was in in Canada.
OK, so he was not there for

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that.
So he was not called, or if he

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was called, he couldn't make it.
And so he he's now relieved of

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the station and he goes down to
Kirtland basically to find out

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that the the town's apostatized
and the and the leadership's

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gone.
You know.

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And he I don't know how long
they stayed there.

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You know he, you know he pretty
much if I recall he sold pretty

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much all yeah all that he could
you know and they got their

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wagons and their you know the
train going and they they went

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down to Kirtland and they found
out that the the leadership had

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gone down to Missouri.
And so, OK, now I guess we're

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going to Missouri, you know, and
so they had intent, they had

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intended to only go to Kirtland,
end up traveling to Missouri.

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And it takes them a while
because they have some obstacles

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and and they have to stop along
the way at least once for a

226
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,320
while.
And by the time they get to Far

227
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,520
West, war has broken out.
Holy.

228
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:57,600
Cow, and you know, his grandson,
Samuel Wooley Taylor says in his

229
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,480
book on his grandfather.
You know, he basically, as soon

230
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,080
as he arrived in Far West, he
received Kimball, hands him a

231
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,440
rifle, you know.
Dude, think about.

232
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,720
Think about that.
He probably leaves some place in

233
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,720
Toronto that's probably, you
know, comfortable for that time

234
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,680
period, right.
And it's like telling your wife

235
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,160
and your kids, all right, we're
we're we're going to Kirtland.

236
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,800
That's where the church is.
That's where Brother Joseph

237
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,560
wants us.
We're going to go down there.

238
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,760
And then it's on fire,
essentially, right?

239
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,280
Maybe not physically, but but
it's on fire.

240
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,520
There's an apostle going on and
there's a message to go to

241
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,840
Missouri after that.
And you're like, well, crap.

242
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,200
Like, dude, I'm not sure how to
have that much face at that

243
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,440
point.
I may have been like, we're

244
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,120
turning the wagons around, We're
going back to Toronto.

245
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,720
We'll figure this out from
someplace comfortable.

246
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,280
Sure, sure.
He's like, screw it, you know,

247
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,440
hit those nags.
We're moving on to Missouri.

248
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,120
And then you get there and it's
like, we're so glad to see you.

249
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,120
Here's a rifle.
Take your position.

250
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,600
Well, and he gets, yeah.
And he's told that he was called

251
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,880
to be a member of the 12.
You know.

252
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,400
Yeah, at that point at least.
I'm pretty sure that's how that

253
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,040
story goes.
And so they're there.

254
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,560
They stay there for a while.
There is the the the Missouri

255
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,520
Mormon War.
I don't.

256
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,400
I don't think he was one of
them.

257
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:34,520
Those who was taken prisoner but
they get sent on the they get

258
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,360
sent on a mission by revelation
and I don't know if it's also in

259
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:45,720
Section 118 or where it is but
the 12 were called to come up.

260
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,880
They were they were called to
dedicate the temple in far West

261
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,360
and then to leave on a mission
to England.

262
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,120
I think.
I think it was England and and

263
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,440
they but they get driven out
right?

264
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,360
Right.
And before the dedication and

265
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,320
the mobs were like, well this is
1 prophecy that won't come true,

266
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,200
you know.
And so Joseph Smith Hiram and

267
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,760
Sydney Rigdon Harley P Pratt are
all in jail.

268
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:21,640
Harley was in Richmond Jail, not
Liberty, and David Whitmer and

269
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:28,280
WW Phelps had apostatized, and
Thomas Marsh, president of the

270
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,000
Quorum of the 12, had
apostatized at this point and

271
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,040
David West Patton, who was next
in LAR in charge of the Quorum

272
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,320
of the 12, dot.
OK.

273
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,160
And so that leaves Brigham Young
and Hebrew C Kimball as the head

274
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:49,120
of the church in Far West to
evacuate everyone to Commerce

275
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:53,360
Illinois while you know Joseph
and and the rest are in jail.

276
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:58,000
And then after getting settled
somewhat, Brigham Young and

277
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,120
leads the 12, including John
Taylor back down to far West

278
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,200
under the cover of Knight to
dedicate the Far West temple

279
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,960
site.
And they hold they, yeah,

280
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:14,640
Commando, Commando style,
literally in enemy territory,

281
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,760
you know, behind enemy lines.
Dude.

282
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,560
And then we then to like, I just
imagine those guys looking down

283
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,880
right now going You guys are
such wusses like complain and

284
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,800
piss and moan about having to
read your scriptures or pay your

285
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,560
tithing.
Meanwhile, these dudes are

286
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,720
slipping behind enemy lines,
throwing arms to the square in

287
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,200
the cover of darkness to get
that dedication done.

288
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,280
Yeah.
And they, they had a whole

289
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,400
meeting essentially.
You know, they sang a hymn, open

290
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,120
the prayer by prayer, and then
they offered the dedicatory

291
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:53,320
prayer and and then after they
dedicated the cornerstones, they

292
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,880
sat Wilford Woodruff and George
A Smith, I think on the

293
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,040
cornerstones, and ordained them
apostles to fill up some of the

294
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,560
vacancies that were still in the
quorum.

295
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,040
Dude, I'll tell you what this
this to me is interesting

296
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:15,280
because if we think about
organized Mormonism today and

297
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:22,040
this I'm I'm not saying this is
a blanket, but they must have

298
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,320
felt empowered from Joseph Smith
to be able to get that stuff

299
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,880
done right.
These aren't men who are just

300
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:32,960
howering before a man going,
what should I do, what should I

301
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,440
do?
They somehow feel empowered

302
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,480
enough that they're like Joseph
would be cool with this let's

303
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,720
get this done.
And and I think it it really

304
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,840
kind of flies in the space of
some of the way Joseph's painted

305
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,360
sometimes, that he's kind of a
dictator, that everything that

306
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:56,120
happens has his OK, but he he
seems to really go the other

307
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,200
direction.
He empowers people to do this

308
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,920
sort of stuff.
Yeah, he does.

309
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,240
And when correction needs to be
made, he makes it.

310
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,560
Right.
Yep, Yep.

311
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:14,920
But I say, I mean to me that's
just that will be probably

312
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,600
another topic of study for me
personally later into more into

313
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,960
that period, that early life of
Brigham Young there.

314
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,760
But to me like that's something
that we don't talk about with

315
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:31,680
Brigham Young and that's like
the test for him is everything

316
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,240
just went to absolute hell at
that point.

317
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:42,560
Joseph Sidney Hiram in jail and
a senior member of the 12 is

318
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,600
dead.
And the the most senior

319
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:49,320
president is off signing
affidavits that got this whole

320
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,480
ball rolling.
You know the the Missouri War.

321
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,040
Right.
You know, and and then your

322
00:20:55,040 --> 00:21:00,560
state president and one of his
counselors just got axed right

323
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,840
before all that went down too,
you know.

324
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:09,680
And so and so technically,
Brigham Young was acting not

325
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,760
just as head of the Quorum of
the 12, but before Joseph went

326
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,920
to jail, Joseph Smith okayed
Brigham Young acting as the

327
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,560
president of that stake.
Right.

328
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,160
So he was acting as president of
the Far West Stake at that point

329
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,840
as well.
And then you got John Taylor,

330
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,840
who's like he had to have
thought at some point.

331
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,840
What the hell did I just get in
the middle of?

332
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,760
Oh, Oh, sure, yeah.
And in any case, he's Fast

333
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:47,000
forward a few years on the the
19 or 184041 mission.

334
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:55,040
He goes back to England to
preach the gospel and once he

335
00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:04,880
gets back to Nauvoo, Joseph
Smith has him working in the

336
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,280
Times and Seasons print shop
with him as Associate Editor.

337
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,240
And so Joseph Smith and John
Taylor their day-to-day job.

338
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,520
I mean, besides the other stuff
that Joseph Smith had to do

339
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,880
right, their day-to-day job was
working on the Times and Seasons

340
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:24,840
together.
Man and I you know, those must

341
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,320
have been invaluable times to
Taylor as well, right, 'cause

342
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:34,640
just like like anybody else, you
talk with your Co workers, you

343
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,080
know you're shoulder to
shoulder.

344
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,440
You get to know them pretty
well.

345
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,440
Those must have been in, you
know, just formative years for

346
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,560
Taylor.
Oh, absolutely.

347
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,440
That's one-on-one time
presumably with the profit.

348
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,040
I don't know how many hours they
are working a day, you know, But

349
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,320
you know what I mean Like
that's, yeah, it's it's killer

350
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,760
honestly.
I mean it's it's literally a

351
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:06,720
dream come true.
And so I trust John Taylor as as

352
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,760
someone to distribute that
knowledge, that light knowledge,

353
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,720
right.
And so another interesting thing

354
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:18,960
that happened in Avu was, are
you aware of, and I'm sure you

355
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,240
are in the teachings of the
Prophet Joseph Smith, where

356
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:30,000
Joseph is giving that priesthood
elaboration on the Adam on

357
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,800
diamond scenario.
Yep, where the ancient today's

358
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,920
comes.
And then the Son of Man comes

359
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:41,400
before him and his crown and
delivers up his keys, and then

360
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,520
all the others deliver up their
keys and all that.

361
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,000
Yep, John Taylor wrote that for
on behalf of Joseph Smith.

362
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,680
Joseph Smith asked John Taylor
to actually write that down.

363
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,200
Really.
So Joseph Joseph relays the

364
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,520
information and John Taylor puts
it into something that is

365
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,640
pleasing to read.
Right.

366
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,640
And he actually says there's a
talk in the Journal of

367
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,200
Discourses.
And I don't have the reference,

368
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,640
but it is in there where he says
it took him more than once to

369
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,320
write it down because.
And he admitted I didn't

370
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,160
understand what Joseph was
getting at it.

371
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,680
Wow.
You know, it was, it was called,

372
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,560
you know, And I think that's
because it ties into the Adam

373
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,960
God doctrine, which I I would
like to talk about, too.

374
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:30,400
Yeah, but I think that was
veiled and I don't think he was

375
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,400
just coming out right out and
saying that at that point to

376
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,840
John Taylor, but he was trying
to illustrate that without

377
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,640
saying.
It right?

378
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,080
Maybe give maybe give him enough
enough bread crumbs, so to

379
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,560
speak, that he could start
asking the questions and getting

380
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,960
getting some answers on that.
But in any case in the journals

381
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,520
he says in conference how Joseph
had him write that and and even

382
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,920
if you go into the words of
Joseph Smith it's a scholars the

383
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,880
tribute that to to John Taylor
but he so yeah on the Adam God

384
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:09,760
doctrine with John Taylor
there's the first reaction or

385
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,160
one of the first reactions I've
seen growing up in the church

386
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,480
when you bring up the Adam God
doctrine is that that was

387
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:19,360
Brigham Young's.
Once Brigham Young died, John

388
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:24,520
Taylor sought to kind of re
Christianize the church, right?

389
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,440
First thing he did was publish a
book called The Mediation and

390
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:29,920
and Atonement.
Have you ever read that?

391
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,320
I haven't.
Super good, actually.

392
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,160
And people who who take that
point of view, I think they're

393
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,920
wrong.
But they they say that that's

394
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,360
because of that re emphasis on
Christ and the Atonement.

395
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:49,120
That's you know, just kind of
the recalibration towards where

396
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:53,840
we're at today, right.
I don't know if other Christians

397
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,440
would think that after reading
that, that it re Christianized

398
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,800
the church because that entire
book is literally about the

399
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,680
atonement being the vehicle to
reconcile ourselves with the

400
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,680
Godhead and become gods
ourselves, right.

401
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,040
You know and it's a great book.
It's a fabulous book.

402
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:20,760
But to so I know for a fact that
John W John Taylor, President

403
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,920
John Taylor didn't have an axe
to grind against the Adam God

404
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,920
doctrine.
In fact, I'm fairly certain he

405
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,200
believed it.
Let's see.

406
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,280
So not only did he have that
experience where he wrote that

407
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:42,320
down for Joseph, he later writes
or or tells Brigham Young

408
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,520
Secretary L John Metal.
Do you know who L John Metal is?

409
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,240
Yep, I do.
L John Metal was actually a

410
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,480
son-in-law of John Taylor, so he
had married, married one of John

411
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,320
Taylor's daughters, and was
secretary to Brigham Young

412
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,800
Secretary to John Taylor later
when when the First Presidency

413
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,440
was reconvened and he was
secretary to Wilford Woodruff.

414
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,760
Right.
Later on and and he wrote down

415
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,960
the lecture at the veil in Saint
George from Brigham Young right

416
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,240
and there and that's got the
Adam God doctrine in it.

417
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:21,280
And he tells Brother Noel, I
heard the Prophet Joseph say

418
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,760
that the keys of the priesthood
came down to me and Oliver

419
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,640
through Peter, James and John
and they received it from Christ

420
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,720
and he received it from Adam.
And Adam is the father of our

421
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,040
bodies.
Who is to say that he is not

422
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,200
also the father of our spirits?
Right.

423
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,480
And so that that's in a page in
some El John metal papers dated

424
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,000
to 1879 when when John Taylor
told him that you know

425
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:56,080
reminiscing that also I I didn't
go back and check this but he

426
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,920
might have been at the prayer
meeting see if I can check it

427
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:05,000
real quick in March of 1852
right before Brigham Young gives

428
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,600
the April 9th 1852 general
conference talk where he

429
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,960
launched out on that there was a
prayer meeting where some of the

430
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:23,000
12 were there and Brigham Young
gives the Adam God doctrine in a

431
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,080
revelation type format.
Have you ever seen that I?

432
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,200
Haven't Is this in the Journal
of Discourses?

433
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,640
It is not.
It's the only place I've ever

434
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,520
seen it published is in Drew
Bryony's Understanding Adam God

435
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,080
Teachings.
OK.

436
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,320
And so it was taken in
shorthand.

437
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,360
I don't recall who the scribe
was.

438
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,640
I'm just seeing if John Taylor
was at that meeting, and I don't

439
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,400
think he was, he was not there.
I was hoping he would be there.

440
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,400
In any case, Now that we're
there, though, whoever was

441
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,120
writing writes met in temple
rooms and prayed.

442
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,960
Orson Pratt was mouth converse
upon Adam Orson Pratt's

443
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,040
discourse in the endowment
rooms.

444
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,000
Yesterday Brigham Young rolled
out revelation upon revelation

445
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,520
in regard to the creation of the
world.

446
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,920
Adam came to the earth.
When he assisted to form it.

447
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,480
He partook of the fruits of the
earth and became earthly.

448
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,920
And they which are after should
receive our resurrected bodies,

449
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,480
and shall have the privilege of
going as Adams to form an earth

450
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:35,720
and do likewise.
So that was in a prayer meeting,

451
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,560
right?
You know, in March, right before

452
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:44,360
the April 9th conference.
And so my personal, my personal

453
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,440
view on that is that because it
was kind of received as the word

454
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,800
of the Lord at that point,
Brigham Young felt out, felt

455
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,400
comfortable launching out
publicly.

456
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,000
Although if you go through his
discourses previous to that in

457
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,880
the after Joseph Smith dies, you
can pick up that he's laying

458
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,640
down the insinuation hard
already before that.

459
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,000
In any case, I was hoping John
Taylor was at that meeting.

460
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:19,160
He was not, but in 1860 or some
Pratt gets called in to a

461
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,520
disciplinary meeting because he
had been sent on a mission

462
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,160
somewhere, and he was publishing
The Seer or some other magazine

463
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,800
and Brigham Young and told him
not to publish any articles

464
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:38,320
regarding his thoughts on the
Holy Spirit.

465
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,960
Are you aware of Orson Pratt's
views on the Holy Spirit

466
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,160
doctrine as he understood it?
Is it the One?

467
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,240
And then don't quote me.
Is it the one where he thinks

468
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,800
that that the Holy Spirit is
kind of all of us together, the

469
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,840
mind of God sort sort of a
thing?

470
00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:00,920
That's definitely part of it.
He in the Journal of Discourse

471
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,560
is when he was giving one of
these talks.

472
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,400
He basically prefaces it by
saying I don't want to

473
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,680
contradict the understanding or
the revelation that says that

474
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,120
there's three gods in the
Godhead.

475
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,240
But according to Revelation,
because Lectures on Faith was

476
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,000
part of the Doctrine of
Covenants at that point, right?

477
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,920
According to Revelation, there
are two beings in the Godhead

478
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,760
that are personages, and the
third is the mind and will of

479
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,400
God in unity, right?
And so he go.

480
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,240
And so the problem
philosophically that you're

481
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:37,000
facing now in Mormonism as a
response to the sectarian God

482
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,280
that can be everywhere.
Right.

483
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,600
All the time and all powerful
right and knows everything is

484
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,400
how can God be everywhere if
he's now tabernacled and

485
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:55,160
confined to 1 finite location?
Right.

486
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:04,120
And so Orson postulated that
essentially the Holy Ghost was a

487
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,280
spiritual light or fluid that
was dispersed throughout the

488
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,640
immensity of space and therefore
could touch everything.

489
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,840
And because and that came from
God, right?

490
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:18,400
Or the OR the all embodied gods
in the universe, right.

491
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,120
In any case, he published some
stuff on that got in trouble and

492
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,040
he gets called into the the
meeting and they're talking

493
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,360
about it.
And Orson Hyde actually tells

494
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,000
Orson Pratt, I think in that
meeting, Well, I was trying to

495
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,880
teach that back in Nauvoo and
Joseph told me that was wrong,

496
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:43,800
you know, And in any case,
Orson's getting defensive and he

497
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,840
kind of retorts with Will
Brigham gets to teach the Adam

498
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,040
God doctrine, which is contrary
to Scripture, you know, or

499
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,160
whatever, you know.
So you get into it right at

500
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,480
that.
And I find John Taylor's

501
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:05,760
response very interesting
because he says when Brother

502
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,600
Brigham tells me a thing, I
consider it a revelation.

503
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,400
Some things are apparently
contradictory, but are not

504
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:18,880
really contradictory, he says.
According to Scripture, Christ

505
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,640
is the first fruits of the
resurrection.

506
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,520
But if Christ is the first
fruits of the resurrection, how

507
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,240
was it then that his father was
resurrected before him?

508
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,960
Right.
There must be a discrepancy and

509
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,320
meaning with what is said about
the atonement or about the

510
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,520
resurrection can be relative to
this creation.

511
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,040
Right.
Right.

512
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,400
Or to in context.
Therefore, you know, we know and

513
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,600
he's pointing out that we
believe God's a resurrected

514
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,960
being and he couldn't have
fathered Christ or created this

515
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,520
world with, you know, without
being.

516
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,240
And you run into huge paradoxes
by by with a plan of salvation.

517
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,440
If you suppose that there could
not have been a resurrection

518
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,480
before Christ's resurrection,
because then what happens to

519
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,600
another God in eternity, right?
Right.

520
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,040
Absolutely.
Yeah.

521
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,000
That that that God would cease
to be God.

522
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,760
Right.
Or do you just have spiritual

523
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:22,679
gods, spirit bodies, an infinite
number of them hanging out for a

524
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:24,560
time that you can't put a number
on?

525
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,199
Because how long is eternity?
You know how far back to go, you

526
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:30,679
know it makes it makes no sense,
you know?

527
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:34,440
And so now in this time, this is
the middle you know and that you

528
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,639
know to come and redeem all the
gods.

529
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:39,239
I don't.
I don't really buy that.

530
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,159
And so John Taylor points that
out and he says there must be a

531
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,960
discrepancy.
If the power of God was

532
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,600
sufficient to resurrect the body
of Christ, then it was

533
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,239
sufficient to resurrect the body
of Adam.

534
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,840
Yeah.
And that's what he tells Orson

535
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,800
Pratt in, you know, after Orson
brings up the Adam God doctrine.

536
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,600
So that shows me he's a he's a
supporter.

537
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,960
Right.
He's he's not only is he well

538
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:10,200
versed in it, but he's well
versed in enough to be able to

539
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,200
point out some fallacies on some
other things on that.

540
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,200
So at.
Yeah.

541
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,240
And it would make sense, right?
I mean, look, if Joseph's

542
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:21,800
trusting him enough to be the
guy to print the Times and

543
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,360
Seasons, sure, and he's working
alongside him, you can only

544
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,640
imagine the conversations that
were had in there.

545
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,480
Oh, no doubt, no doubt.
Oh, and he goes on.

546
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,280
He doesn't ever teach it
publicly that we're aware of.

547
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,080
And I'm sure we would be aware
of it at this point if he had.

548
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,720
But if I recall, Brigham Young
in the last years of his life

549
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:48,960
basically said because this
isn't really being accepted by

550
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,800
the people, keep it hush hush
for a while or don't teach it.

551
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,320
Just don't teach it publicly,
you know.

552
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,960
And so I think John Taylor kind
of took that, that stance.

553
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,960
And most of the time in the
Journal of Discourses or

554
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,360
wherever, when he's talking
about the Father, he calls them

555
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,040
by the name of Jehovah, you
know, which is also different

556
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,040
than the current LDS
understanding well and the.

557
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,400
Also they probably thought, you
know what if they don't accept

558
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,520
this Adam God thing from the
pulpit, they got to go through

559
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:22,760
the temple at some point and the
whole the whole temple drama is

560
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,960
really a master class and a
tutorial in Adam God doctrine

561
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,040
when you get down to the heart
of it.

562
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,440
Yeah, it sure is.
And in George Hugh Cannon's

563
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,240
journal in 1882, he writes that
he went over to John Taylor's

564
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:43,320
house and he had a discussion
with John Taylor on his thoughts

565
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,160
on our Father in Heaven, Adam.
OK.

566
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,120
Yeah.
So.

567
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,240
That's that's probably a slam
dunk.

568
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,680
Yeah, in private he was willing
to talk about it, it looks like.

569
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,920
Or, you know, yeah, willing, not
able, but willing to talk about

570
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,560
it.
So that's John Taylor.

571
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:03,920
And that's the stuff that I
think we need.

572
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,760
You know, it's more than we
needed to cover.

573
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,760
But I I thought it was fun.
And we can start.

574
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,440
We can start with John W Taylor.
All right.

575
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,320
The Utah war.
What do you know about it?

576
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:21,160
I know the government was pissed
that we were practicing

577
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,000
polygamy.
They marched.

578
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,280
An army in Brigham ends up
ordering the covering up of the

579
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,480
the foundation of the Salt Lake
Temple.

580
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,320
Right.
John Taylor then goes all the

581
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,600
church leadership then goes
underground or to jail.

582
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,280
So we're let's see, where do we
want to start here?

583
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:50,440
So Brigham Young reactivated the
Navi Legion when Johnston's army

584
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:56,360
was coming through Wyoming.
And instead of engaging the army

585
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,840
directly, Brigham Young and the
other leaders of the novel

586
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,120
Legion developed a strategy that
would be kind of like guerrilla

587
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,040
warfare.
Smart.

588
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,800
You know, hit and runs,
hindering and weakening the the

589
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,560
approach.
Daniel H Wells.

590
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,520
I don't know if he was a member
of the First Presidency yet.

591
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:20,680
If he wasn't yet, he is going to
be very soon.

592
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:26,320
At this point, Daniel H Wells is
somewhat super interesting in a

593
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,120
priesthood sense because he was
ordained an apostle by Brigham

594
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,040
Young and taken right into the
the First Presidency as a

595
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,120
counselor.
And then he was never made a

596
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,280
member of the Quorum of the 12
after Brigham Young died.

597
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,840
Interesting And he was a general
authority.

598
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,240
Still he was an apostle and he
still met with the Quorum of the

599
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:51,800
12.
But in the meetings, they refer

600
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,520
to him as a counselor to the 12
apostles after Brigham Young

601
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,640
died.
Interesting.

602
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,000
So yeah, he was an apostle
outside the Quorum.

603
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,320
Just throwing that out there.
You mean that can happen?

604
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,640
Yes, yes.
And he's not the only one, by

605
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,480
the way.
Wow, that It's too bad I didn't

606
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,680
do an interview with a guy who
just talked about some of this.

607
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,400
Like, I don't know, maybe like
Sean Anderson or so I Anyway,

608
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,200
yeah.
So.

609
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:24,440
So Daniel Wells is acting as the
head of the Nabu Legion and he

610
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:29,480
instructs Major Joseph Taylor,
No relation to John Taylor.

611
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,160
He instructs him on ascertaining
the locality or route of the

612
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,440
troops.
Proceed at once to annoy them in

613
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,440
every possible way.
Use every exertion to stay and

614
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,720
pee their animals and set fire
to their trains.

615
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,520
Burn the whole country before
them and on their flanks keep

616
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,400
them from sleeping by night
surprises.

617
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,480
Blockade the road by felling
trees or destroying the River

618
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,480
Fords where you can watch for
opportunities to set fire to the

619
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,840
grass on their windward so as
possible to envelope their

620
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,880
trains.
Leave no grass before them that

621
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,480
can be burned.
Keep your men concealed as much

622
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,920
as possible and guard against
surprises.

623
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,240
Porter Rockwell was there doing
a lot of that, by the way, like

624
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:20,400
a badass while that was going
on.

625
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,480
Brigham Young evacuated.
Salt Lake City on March 23rd,

626
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:32,400
1858 and he basically he had a
few guys stay behind to put hay

627
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:37,440
and straw in the houses and they
were going to burn that mother

628
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:43,960
down if the if the army came in
the whole city.

629
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,800
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how
big it was in 1858, but

630
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:49,840
definitely not the same size it
is now.

631
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,960
But still, Can you imagine that
you're just after getting done,

632
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:59,080
being done, harassed by silent
vigilantes in the Wyoming

633
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,000
plains, starving and freezing to
death, and you get down out of

634
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,720
Echo Pass to see just a massive
fire burning?

635
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:11,800
Just the whole place on fire,
dude.

636
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,160
I'm thinking about those poor
pioneers, right?

637
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,040
I mean, they suffered all that
crap.

638
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,680
They finally get out.
Like no one's going to want this

639
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,280
place.
It's it's a desert with a really

640
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:28,120
salty lake next to it and
finally thinking you're going to

641
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,960
have some peace.
Not yet, not yet.

642
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,080
Now you know Brigham's like,
hey, you're ready to torture

643
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,440
place.
If we can't have it, nobody is.

644
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,480
Part of me, dude.
If I if I could have been a time

645
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,960
traveling Angel or something I
might have like made that happen

646
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,160
because I think it would have
delayed some problems that we

647
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,040
have now if another generation
that had to be raised in

648
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:56,760
hardship and and know how to
sacrifice to get close to the

649
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,640
Lord.
And maybe I'm not one to talk

650
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:01,640
because I'm I wasn't there
obviously.

651
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:07,360
But I just I think I could deal
with harder than I deal with you

652
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,640
know to you know at least I I
could I could deal with Spartan

653
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,800
living anyways maybe.
But that maybe that's not my

654
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,680
trial in any case, you'll say.
Wait till you're 45, You'll

655
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,280
change your mind.
That ended up not having to

656
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:28,680
happen, unfortunately, or maybe
fortunately, but everyone pretty

657
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,520
much evacuated down to Provo,
and this is where John W Taylor

658
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,640
is born.
Although before we we.

659
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:42,000
All right.
I'll come back to something else

660
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,160
I skipped over, but so he was
born.

661
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,880
I don't know if John Taylor
helps recondition the living

662
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,400
quarters, but in any case,
Sophia Whitaker Taylor, Because,

663
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,120
I mean, when you move however
many refugees into the town,

664
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,520
there's not going to be a lot of
living space for everyone,

665
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:03,360
right?
So they kind of, you know, did

666
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,920
some spit and Polish and makeup
on a chicken coop, right.

667
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,360
And that's where John Taylor
John W Taylor was born in a in a

668
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,680
chicken coop in Provo, UT during
this whole episode.

669
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:22,480
So put a pin in that.
I want to go back before this

670
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:28,840
point as the the Johnston's army
that was heading from you know

671
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,240
down, they sent a captain ahead
of them.

672
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:38,520
You know, Captain Van Bleep to
kind of do some negotiations and

673
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,920
they were kind of at you.
I think they were kind of suing

674
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,360
for peace at this point anyways
because they were getting a lot

675
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,760
of trouble, as we, you know, as
was the point.

676
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:54,200
In any case, Captain Van Van Vuy
gets invited to a meeting and

677
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,520
it's AI don't know what kind of
meeting it was, but John Taylor

678
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,600
speaking, OK.
And I wanted to read what John

679
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,400
Taylor thought about this whole
situation.

680
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:12,520
OK, check.
Or actually this is this is

681
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:19,200
taken out of Samuel Wooley
Taylor's book Kingdom or

682
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,800
Nothing, I believe.
And so it's got a little bit of

683
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,400
his narrative first, but then
it'll jump to the to what John

684
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,280
Taylor said.
Samuel Wooley Taylor writes

685
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,000
Sunday morning was too hot for
the Saints to assemble in the

686
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,520
Adobe Tabernacle.
They gathered Outback at the

687
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,880
Bowery, shaded by the canopy of
fresh tree branches as John

688
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,480
Taylor arose to speak.
Every bench was crowded while

689
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,880
the overflow stood about the
pole framework.

690
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:53,400
On this September 13th, 1857,
the US Army was bivouacked in

691
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:58,600
Wyoming at Hams Fork on the
Green River, only 143 miles

692
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,840
away, awaiting the order to
March on Utah, the Saints were

693
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,160
gathered for counsel at this
time of crisis.

694
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,960
Seated among the brethren on the
rostrum was AUS Army officer.

695
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,960
The audience anticipated that
while Taylor would address the

696
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,280
congregation, his every word
would be directed to Captain

697
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,920
Stuart Vansley, whose report to
his superiors would reflect the

698
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,440
Mormon attitude towards the
threat of armed invasion.

699
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,240
Van Vleet, Assistant
Quartermaster, had been in the

700
00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:29,160
Great Salt Lake City several
days vainly trying to secure

701
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,760
supplies for the men and
livestock of the Utah Expedition

702
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:37,800
2500 troops, with as much with
as many more Teamsters and camp

703
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,480
followers, the gamblers and the
prostitutes.

704
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:45,640
So 5000 people counting right?
Taylor had previously known

705
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,320
Captain Van Vleet A decade ago
at Winter Quarters, where the

706
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,720
officer had helped the
impoverished Saints by

707
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:56,440
furnishing employment, but so he
might have had something to do

708
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,400
with the Mormon Battalion at
that point.

709
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,760
But while Van Vleet was regarded
with personal cordiality,

710
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,160
Brigham and the 12 refused to
settle him provisions and lumber

711
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,240
for the army of occupation.
Taylor began his remarks with a

712
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,160
with a discussion seemingly
unrelated to the problem at

713
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:14,920
hand.
However, his purpose was to

714
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,760
reassure the Saints of divine
protection and at the same time

715
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,760
to put a flea in Van Vleet's
ear.

716
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,480
He mentioned rather a strange
anomaly in comparing various

717
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,200
social experiments in utopian
colonies, which invariably

718
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:36,320
invariably have failed, with
with Mormonism, which despite

719
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,400
everything that had, which
despite everything, had thrived.

720
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,720
The answer, he said, was that
others didn't have the gospel as

721
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:46,000
it existed in its purity, with
the people in a confident and

722
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,720
happy mood.
They couldn't hear too often of

723
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:52,400
their superiority over the
Gentiles or being persecuted for

724
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,560
righteousness, Righteousness's
sake.

725
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,720
There's some tongue in cheek
humor a little bit.

726
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:04,280
Samuel Taylor Taylor asks, What
was your object in coming here?

727
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,600
Was it to rebel against the
general government?

728
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,680
So he's asking the congregation
these rhetorical questions,

729
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,840
right?
Did you come out here to rebel

730
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,720
against the government from
behind him?

731
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,560
Brigham Young supplied the
answer to Get away from

732
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,120
Christians.
That's awesome.

733
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,240
Yeah, Brigham's not too
concerned with the use of that

734
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:30,280
label like we are today.
No, Samuel Taylor relates.

735
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,680
The Bowery exploded in laughter.
Brother Young.

736
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,440
And then John Taylor says
Brother Young says it was to get

737
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,000
away from Christians, from the
unbounded charity which you had

738
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,280
experienced from amongst them.
And so this is, I think, the

739
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:50,320
rest of this is the pretty much
a quote.

740
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,280
We came here because we cannot
help it, and now we have got an

741
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,680
idea to stay here because we
can't help it.

742
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,080
This is about the feeling.
Why do these people feel so

743
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,000
comfortable when an army is
approaching?

744
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,600
Are you not afraid of being
killed?

745
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,400
No, not a great deal, because
you have got a principle within

746
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,720
you that cannot be conquered in
time nor in eternity.

747
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,880
You possess the principles of
eternal life in your bosoms that

748
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,760
cannot be subdued.
The Saints have been driven out

749
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,680
before, and might be again, but
they have never been conquered.

750
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:26,120
Talk to us of bowing to the
Gentile yoke.

751
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:29,280
Nonsense.
What would be your feeling if

752
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,160
the United States wanted to have
the honor of driving us from our

753
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,840
homes and bringing us subject to
their depraved standard of moral

754
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,800
and religious truth?
Would you, if necessary,

755
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,280
brethren, put the torch to your
buildings and lay them in ashes

756
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:43,960
and wander homeless into the
mountains?

757
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:48,160
Brigham Young spoke up behind
him and says try the vote.

758
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:56,440
Nice.
Taylor asks, are are you that

759
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,240
are willing to set fire to your
property and lay it in ashes

760
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,760
rather than submit to their
military rule and oppression

761
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,800
manifested by raising your
hands?

762
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,520
A force of hands shot up.
Taylor returned, turned to look

763
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,280
to Captain Van Vleet.
The officer sat with military

764
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:16,920
erectness, his face pass, Taylor
says.

765
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,600
I know what your feelings are.
We have been persecuted and

766
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,880
robbed long enough, and in the
name of Israel's God we will be

767
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,760
free.
And Brigham Young says behind

768
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,720
him.
I say Amen to that all the time.

769
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,200
I love the Journal of
Discourses, because they have

770
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,800
kind of funny little.
Have you ever read those

771
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,160
parents, whether you have in
parenthetical statements behind

772
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,640
where the you have what the
Brethren are saying?

773
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,560
Funny.
Anyway, so that's that's the

774
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,080
scenario that John W Taylor is
born into.

775
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:49,720
That's the world that he's born
into.

776
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:58,160
And honestly, it blew my mind
because there's signal there's

777
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,800
very strong parallels you can't
make up with the life of Christ

778
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:03,080
right there.
Yeah.

779
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,400
And I'll explain this a little
bit.

780
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,400
You have Herod's army or
Johnston's army coming in to

781
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:12,120
destroy.
The.

782
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:18,160
Latter Day Saints you have a
small city South of Jerusalem or

783
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:19,920
Salt Lake.
Right.

784
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:26,680
Where a prophet of God is born
in a Manger or chicken coop.

785
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:28,280
Right.
Yeah.

786
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,960
No, There's some really striking
parallels there for sure.

787
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,680
I had never realized that until
I did this dive on John W

788
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,200
Taylor.
But I I pretty, I mean the the

789
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,680
stance, what I heard from my
parents in the church, you know,

790
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:50,400
was every prophet of God is a
type or a shadow of Jesus Christ

791
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,360
in some way, form or fashion
that there's something that

792
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:59,240
reflects on the mission of Jesus
Christ or the life of Jesus

793
00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:03,200
Christ.
And that's a big one.

794
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:06,920
Or just like that's like bluntly
on the nose, right?

795
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:13,040
Oh yeah, you know and you know
we're talking about someone who

796
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,280
was sustained as a prophets here
in Revelator.

797
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:20,800
But not only not only did he did
this prophet you know or apostle

798
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,560
actually prophecy and actually
you know prophecy correctly, You

799
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:30,760
know, he had that reputation.
But now you have this very

800
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,560
stunning parallel that's in his
life from the beginning that

801
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,400
marks him almost, you know, that
those are things outside of his

802
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,400
own personal control.
But it's there, boom right

803
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:41,400
there.
That's where he was.

804
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,680
That's how he was born, you
know, in that situation.

805
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:51,520
Yeah, His very introduction into
the world is in the middle of

806
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:56,200
trying to preserve the ability
to live the gospel in his

807
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,640
fullness.
And I think that's a a thread

808
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,440
we'll see over and over again.
And you also see the other

809
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,720
element, which is his
willingness to sacrifice his own

810
00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:12,000
reputation and give his life's
work, sacrificing this church

811
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,440
membership so that the principle
that will exalt the rest of us

812
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:17,960
will go forward.
Right.

813
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,960
So that not sounds like the
atonement.

814
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,720
Absolutely.
Yeah.

815
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:26,720
All right.
We're going to get to, we're

816
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:29,680
going to get to some fun stuff
now.

817
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:36,600
OK, so about 1867.
He's nine years old, His son,

818
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:41,080
Samuel Wooley Taylor, writes in
his book Family Kingdom.

819
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:42,800
I'm going to quote a lot from
this because it's one of the

820
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,560
best sources that we have,
although it is, it is a bit

821
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,640
novelized.
And Samuel W Taylor was kind of

822
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:54,680
a Jack Mormon, and so there's
some tone that reflects that.

823
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,240
I can deal with that.
I think it's pretty funny most

824
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:02,320
of the time.
Anyways, he recalls that Father

825
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:07,800
he showed a a peculiar self
centeredness and reliance on

826
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,760
when at an early age, when a boy
of nine, he cut himself a Willow

827
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,920
pole, tied a hook on a string
and went fishing in the Canyon.

828
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,720
That afternoon he met an Indian
on the Creek and quickly made

829
00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:21,120
friends.
Come supper time the Indian

830
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,600
showed him, showed him how to
cook fish without a skillet.

831
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,920
The boy was fascinated as it
began getting dark, Father said

832
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,680
reluctantly.
Well, I guess I better be

833
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,400
getting for home.
And the Indian indicated the

834
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:37,880
great outdoors with a wide sweep
of the arm and said this is

835
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,720
home, say, the boy felt that was
certainly a fine way to be

836
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,520
independent.
No chores, no responsibilities

837
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,360
washing behind the ears for
every meal.

838
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,600
It sure would be fine to be an
Indian for a while.

839
00:53:54,400 --> 00:54:00,600
And so he stayed out that night
and the next two weeks with this

840
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:02,680
Indian.
Oh, geez.

841
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:04,920
Out there by the Creek or
wherever they were.

842
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,680
Oh, just like mom and dad send a
search party or something.

843
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,120
Yeah, they don't.
They don't find them, obviously,

844
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,320
he.
But after two weeks of spending

845
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:19,120
time with this Indian that he
calls rain in the face, you

846
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,360
know, after the the novelty of
this fun, fun time wore off, he

847
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,680
began.
You know, I'm thinking maybe I

848
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:29,880
should get home.
And his mom nearly fainted when

849
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,520
he came to the door, and there
had been search parties.

850
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,240
Can you imagine that?
Walking through the door, your

851
00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:39,880
mom's all freaked out and you're
like, it's cool.

852
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:41,200
I've been hanging with rain in
the face.

853
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,120
It's all good.
And it's it's super funny when

854
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:47,800
we when I read the The Fam
Family Kingdom because in his

855
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:52,440
adulthood he kind of capitalizes
off that with his own children

856
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,920
and he'd make up these adventure
stories like bedtime stories for

857
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,440
his kids and Rain in the Face
was a consistent recurring

858
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,640
character in this story.
So it was apparently it was a

859
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:09,600
pretty yeah, you know, it's it
was an experience that stuck

860
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,480
with them for sure.
Well, and it paints a different

861
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,040
picture of of.
Don't get me wrong, the Saints

862
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,960
did have their problem with
certain bands of of of Indians,

863
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:24,400
but it seems this one was not
for whatever reason and I I feel

864
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,600
like that that that's something
that doesn't get enough run is

865
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:32,560
how well those early pioneers
did get along with with some of

866
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,480
the indigenous peoples that were
already there.

867
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,520
It's funny that you mentioned
that there were some troubles

868
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,360
because The funny thing is it's
very funny because I think it's

869
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,920
even to the down to the year.
That same year there was an

870
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,720
Indian war going on was the
Blackhawk War in in in Saint

871
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:53,440
Pete County.
And I don't know if that

872
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,080
extended up.
I think it might have extended

873
00:55:55,080 --> 00:56:01,120
up partially into Cache County,
Cache Valley a little bit, but

874
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:05,120
it definitely was going on down
in down in Sanpete Valley.

875
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:11,840
But so interesting, right?
Anyway, oh, so in the 1870s, as

876
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,560
a young teenager, there was an
experience that John W Taylor

877
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:20,080
had where a woman spoke in
tongues in the meeting and it

878
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,960
was interpreted that he would
end up being an apostle.

879
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,680
And he apparently took that
pretty seriously.

880
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:34,840
And apparently he wasn't very
disposed towards study or

881
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:42,360
reading, but he he made it a
point to memorize a scripture

882
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,040
enough that by the time he was
sent on his mission he had about

883
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,880
400 passages or verses
memorized.

884
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,920
And and to contrast that with
with his father, I was going to

885
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,800
say earlier when we were going
over John Taylor, but I forgot

886
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:03,760
to mention was, if I'm not
mistaken, John Taylor opposed to

887
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:09,280
the rest of the 12 at his point
in time was the only individual

888
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,920
who had a complete formal
education.

889
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,480
OK.
You contrast that with Hebrew C

890
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,680
Kimball, who was, you know,
pretty illiterate at least with

891
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,360
writing and others you know
Joseph Smith.

892
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,680
I have a friend who says I like
to read John Taylor out of the

893
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:29,960
Journal of Discourses, but when
I do, I have to have the

894
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,160
journals in one hand and I have
to have a thesaurus and

895
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,920
together.
Yeah, yeah, no, he's you can

896
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,520
help by his writings.
He's very well educated.

897
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,000
In any case, he wasn't given too
much to spending time doing

898
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,680
that, but he took the gospel
very seriously from an early

899
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,320
age.
During his childhood, he formed

900
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,480
a lifelong friendship with a boy
from his neighborhood named

901
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,640
Matthias Cowley.
OK.

902
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,480
All right.
They they were in the same war

903
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,840
they grew up in, in priesthood
quorums together.

904
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:04,640
You know, ironic priesthood
duties.

905
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,040
When they were teachers or
deacons, they would collect the

906
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:11,880
money for fast offerings to
build the Salt Lake Temple, and

907
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:16,120
then they were also in the
Presidency of their Elders form

908
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,400
locally.
And then they both left on a

909
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,640
mission to the southern states
in 1880.

910
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:29,480
So John W would have been about
20-3 years old at that .1

911
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:35,720
Interesting story from his
mission in 1881 when he was with

912
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:39,480
his companion.
They were having pretty much no

913
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:45,120
success knocking doors and they
were in Kentucky and they were

914
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,920
they, they had gone around so
much that day that they pretty

915
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,000
much felt like no one, like no
one in this town is going to

916
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,400
listen to us.
We're going to walk to the next

917
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,880
town and it's like getting late,
like it's getting dark.

918
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:02,200
And John W Taylor, who's
actually the junior companion at

919
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,960
this point, has an impression to
knock on the door, on a

920
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:10,080
particular door.
And the other companions just

921
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,360
like, come on, let's just go.
It's a long walk.

922
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:13,720
It's getting dark.
We got to go, right?

923
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:15,720
It's like, no, we got to knock
on this door.

924
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,480
And so you'll knock on this
door.

925
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:22,800
And John W Taylor says we have a
message for you from heaven.

926
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:26,520
And if you will entertain us, it
shall be known to you by dreams

927
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,400
this very night that we are true
servants of the Lord.

928
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:34,160
Whoa.
Well, First off, that got them

929
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:38,760
in the door and it got them.
It got them a meal and a

930
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,040
discussion and then a place to
sleep so they didn't have to

931
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,320
walk to the next town that
night.

932
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:51,840
And true enough to to his
promise, the couple got a vision

933
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,680
that night and were converted
and joined the church.

934
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,280
Holy cow.
Yeah.

935
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:03,400
So you see a profound insight or
relationship with the with the

936
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,080
Holy Ghost, with this young man
at this point.

937
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,240
In his life already.
He's 20, he's 23 years old at

938
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:15,040
this point, 24 maybe, and I
don't know if he was released at

939
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:19,080
this point, but he wrote a
letter to Matthias Cowley, who

940
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,520
was still in the mission field
at this point on March 19th,

941
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,920
1882.
And he writes him a letter of

942
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,760
prophecy, saying, I believe I
speak by the spirit of prophecy

943
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,600
when I say, If you are faithful,
you will yet become one of the

944
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,560
12 apostles in the Church of
Jesus Christ in all the world,

945
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,840
and by the power of God and the
eternal priesthood will become

946
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:42,800
become great in wisdom and
knowledge.

947
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:46,760
And he was right on that account
as well.

948
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:48,680
He was right on that and he
wasn't.

949
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,520
You know he he was possibly
still in the mission field and

950
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:57,440
if not barely home, when he
wrote that Matthias Cowley would

951
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,640
end up being called to the
apostle Apostleship 16 years

952
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:04,800
later.
You know, there has to be a

953
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,560
sense that we've lost something
as a people because we don't see

954
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:13,320
that much anymore, right.
And and when you when you hear

955
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:18,240
these accounts they're certainly
miraculous but they almost, I

956
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,480
don't want to see say mundane
but they almost seem commonplace

957
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:26,880
and we don't see that anymore
And and I think it's one of the

958
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,200
things we've lost out on
Mormonism.

959
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:33,160
Right We I I think because we
have maybe treated it lightly.

960
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,520
We're not Privy to those sorts
of things anymore, but it's

961
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:40,400
something that I think is
Mormons we need to start

962
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,520
striving for again.
No, we absolutely do.

963
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,960
And we need to have faith,
right?

964
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:52,840
Because these things are gifts
from God, and they're, I mean,

965
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,800
he says he's willing to give
them to us and so believe that

966
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:58,360
he's willing to give them to us
First off.

967
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:00,520
But they can be abused too.
Yep.

968
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:06,040
And that's a you see that
struggle in early church history

969
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,480
where I think it's part of the
reason why the brethren in the

970
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:15,800
church got very authoritarian is
because we they have, they know

971
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,960
they have a religion that
teaches men an idea that you can

972
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,680
have a revelation or you can
have communication with God and

973
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:26,360
you can have these things.
But then what happens when your

974
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:28,440
revelation tells you not to toe
the line?

975
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,040
Right.
And now your button heads with

976
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:36,800
the brethren.
And there's places where maybe

977
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,760
my standpoint is that, yeah, God
is telling people to do things

978
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,640
for sure that the leadership in
the church have nothing to do

979
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,280
with and would tell you.
They would tell you to do the

980
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,080
opposite and I think go with
God.

981
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:57,760
But in other cases, you know,
I'm fully aware that people can

982
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:02,080
have spurious revelations or
consuming spiritual gifts upon

983
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:06,240
their lusts.
And it's the it's people in a

984
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:09,640
position of leadership or
mentorship to tell them, hey,

985
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,120
you're not doing, you know,
that's not good or this is being

986
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:18,760
abused or here's some guidelines
or what whatever righteous

987
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:22,080
counsel needs to be given, you
know, And it's nice to do that.

988
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:26,640
And so both extremes can be true
with that, and that's what makes

989
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:31,720
it hard.
All right, going forward on

990
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:38,720
March 23rd to 1882, that the so
four days after that letter to

991
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,560
Matthias Cowley, the Edmonds Act
gets passed.

992
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:50,760
It's a the Edmonds Anti Polygamy
Act of 1882 is a United States

993
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:54,200
federal statute which was signed
into law by President Chester A

994
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,800
Arthur declaring polygamy a
felony in federal territories,

995
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:02,280
punishable by a fine not more of
$500, and by imprisonment for a

996
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,120
term of not more than five
years.

997
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:08,920
This act not only reinforced the
1862 Moral Anti Bigamy Act, but

998
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,600
also made the offensive unlawful
cohabitation much easier to

999
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:16,360
prove than polygamy a
misdemeanor, and made it illegal

1000
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:20,240
for polygamists or cohabitants
to vote, hold public office, or

1001
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,320
serve on juries in federal
territories.

1002
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:26,960
So.
Dangerous.

1003
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:30,680
This act that will trigger John
Taylor going into hiding,

1004
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:33,320
correct?
Pretty much, yeah.

1005
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:36,760
This is this is sets, the this
sets the ball rolling for that

1006
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:40,280
whole, that whole, the whole
underground and everything else.

1007
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:46,960
On October 19th that year, 1882,
John W Taylor marries his first

1008
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:52,080
wife, Mae Leona Rich from
Grantsville, UT and they moved

1009
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,760
to Cassia County, Idaho.
Do you know where Cassia County,

1010
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,240
Idaho is?
Cassia County I do Cassia.

1011
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:02,240
The middle of nowhere, right?
It's it's essentially Burley.

1012
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:04,240
Burley.
Right.

1013
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:11,120
I mean, it's Burley and Paul and
yeah, that's about it.

1014
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,080
Yeah, I was.
I was curious to I had to look

1015
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:17,480
that up when I when I read that
and I was where is that And I

1016
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,280
saw that it would the boundary
was like from American Falls to

1017
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:23,320
to Twin Falls.
Yep.

1018
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,520
Yeah, pretty much.
And there is nothing there to

1019
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,920
this day.
I mean, you have Burley, you

1020
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:32,960
have another little small town
and then there ain't nothing.

1021
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,680
I traipse that area surveying so
much.

1022
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:40,880
I've done more surveys for
farmers and and in Jerome

1023
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,680
County, Twin Falls County and
Cash County and it is sparse.

1024
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:48,720
And it was sparse in my day.
So you can only imagine what it

1025
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:53,560
was like during during John W
Taylor's day.

1026
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,200
Yeah, no.
They ever tell you that my dad

1027
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,960
was raised between the ages of
12 and 18 in Jerome ID?

1028
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,560
But then plenty of work out
there too.

1029
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:09,280
Yeah.
So he marries May Leona Rich.

1030
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:12,240
Yeah.
Then he's ordained an apostle on

1031
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:16,200
April 9th, 1884.
And here's another interesting

1032
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:19,000
story because he gets kind of
concerned.

1033
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:21,600
You know, my dad's president of
the church.

1034
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,080
Is this nepotism or is this
inspiration?

1035
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:29,480
Right.
And so he's on his way down to

1036
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,040
Salt Lake from his home in
southern Idaho.

1037
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:39,760
And he he stops overnight on the
Prairie and he rolls his

1038
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:45,840
blankets in a thicket of bushes.
And before going to sleep, he

1039
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:51,960
prays for a sign.
And he says asking the Lord, you

1040
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:56,920
know, if if it's true, you know
that I you know that this is

1041
01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:58,560
revelation and not just
nepotism.

1042
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,520
He wanted it to rain, right.
So you got a Gideon thing going

1043
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:13,680
on here.
And so he wakes up in this Bush.

1044
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:19,960
It's pouring rain and the ground
around the Bush is bone dry, but

1045
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,160
he's just wet, wet, wet, you
know, soaking in rain.

1046
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:29,960
And he reportedly, you know,
with he must have had a good

1047
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:32,760
jovial sense of humor and stuff
like like Hebrew, C Kimball,

1048
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:36,280
because he says thank thee,
Heavenly Father, thank thee for

1049
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,360
his sign.
And as the the rain continued,

1050
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:42,600
he said, I understand, Father,
You don't have to drown me.

1051
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:44,280
Nice.
Yeah.

1052
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:49,160
Oh, Can you imagine telling your
your your new bride.

1053
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:53,160
Pack your bags, baby.
We're moving to Burley or cash a

1054
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:58,760
county or something like that.
But yeah, your dad.

1055
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,120
Had too much experience.
There, Yeah.

1056
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,520
Your dad calling you as an
apostle, That would be kind of a

1057
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:09,560
a head trip, right?
You would That would naturally

1058
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,880
raise those feelings of is this
for real or is this just the old

1059
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:15,720
man doing me a favor?
No.

1060
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:19,520
And.
But I mean, I'm very wary

1061
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:22,640
personally of asking for any
kind of sign, generally

1062
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:24,240
speaking.
I know that there's probably

1063
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:26,520
there obviously has to be a
righteous context where that's

1064
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:30,840
OK because Gideon did it and he
was approved of the Lord and the

1065
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:35,040
Lord selected him to go lead the
army of of the Israelites

1066
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:38,120
against the Midianites.
And obviously the Lord was

1067
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:44,200
choosing young John W Taylor
here to to be one of his

1068
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:48,600
servants and but the faith it
takes to you know, and clearly

1069
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,200
I'm not there but it's it's
astounding to me.

1070
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:55,760
And so I mean I just want to I
hope anyone listening to this is

1071
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:59,560
just inspired by anything that
they hear from this man.

1072
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,439
You know, these experiencing
these experiences that he's

1073
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:08,040
having, that he's living
through, that are forming him to

1074
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,680
be the man he will become to do
the work that he's going to do.

1075
01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:16,840
You know, I think this speaks to
his his, his relationship with

1076
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:21,399
his God.
Because as you relate it, it

1077
01:09:21,399 --> 01:09:25,520
doesn't sound like he's
necessarily seeking after a sign

1078
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:27,960
like Christ talks about in the
New Testament, right?

1079
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,279
He's trying to get the will of
his God.

1080
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:38,080
And the way he talks to God,
even after the sign is given,

1081
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:40,359
he's like, OK enough, you know I
don't.

1082
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,760
Good enough, don't drown me.
You get the feeling that there's

1083
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:48,160
there's a a relationship there,
right?

1084
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:52,840
He, he's got a relationship with
with deity that that he relies

1085
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,760
on heavily.
I can only imagine that probably

1086
01:09:55,760 --> 01:10:00,880
comes from his dad, right?
Seeing his dad do his work and

1087
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:05,280
then associating with men like
Brigham Young, Harley Pratt go

1088
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:10,000
down the list.
Yeah, I, I and again, I think it

1089
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:13,840
it shows probably something we
should strive after to have that

1090
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:19,040
kind of relationship with Deity
to where we look at God as a a a

1091
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:22,720
dad and a friend and be able to
have those conversations.

1092
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,200
That's a hard one because I do
like I I have a good

1093
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:31,120
relationship with my father and
I respect him, but I also fear

1094
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,920
him in the old, in the Old
Testament, scriptural sense.

1095
01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:38,040
You know, I very much respect my
father in a very sober way.

1096
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,920
And we're not, let's just say I
respect we're very close.

1097
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,680
We're and we we are warm, even.
But there's there's something

1098
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:49,120
else there that I think my dad
never tried to be my best

1099
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:50,640
friend.
He is one of my best friends,

1100
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:52,080
but he never tried to be that
dad.

1101
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:55,960
That's the Buddy, buddy.
Do you do you get what I'm kind

1102
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:56,720
of get?
Understand what?

1103
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:00,360
I'm getting.
Look, I'll, I'll tell you what,

1104
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,640
what I held to, and it's
something that I remember from a

1105
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,800
young being a young boy.
Me and my dad could always kind

1106
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:10,680
of verbally spar back and forth
as long as I kept it within

1107
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:13,320
bounds, right?
I knew there were lines you

1108
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:16,720
didn't cross and as long as you
kept it in that the old man was

1109
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:19,400
pretty jovial with me and he was
a big dude, right?

1110
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,480
You've you've met me in person.
He was 4 inches taller than I am

1111
01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:28,720
and probably outweighed me by
about ��75 raised in the in in on

1112
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:32,400
the Great Lakes as a dairy farm
kid drinking whole milk.

1113
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:33,920
I mean, the dude was just
massive.

1114
01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:37,320
But we would, we would spar back
and forth.

1115
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:41,400
And I remember my uncle was up
once and my room was upstairs.

1116
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:45,640
But there was kind of like, it
was kind of like a loft, right?

1117
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:48,720
There was a room attached, but
there was also a wide open area

1118
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:53,400
that was kind of a loft.
And I remember after me and my

1119
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:55,920
dad had kind of, you know, poked
fun at each other.

1120
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:59,440
I ran upstairs and my uncle
goes, oh, you're you're doing

1121
01:11:59,440 --> 01:12:02,160
your kid a disservice.
Your kid needs to fear you.

1122
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:04,720
And I remember my dad said, you
know what?

1123
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:09,560
Here's the Here's the thing.
If my son fears me and he's in

1124
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:12,040
trouble, he won't come to me.
That's true.

1125
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:16,360
If he respects me, he'll still
come to me when he's in trouble.

1126
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:20,560
So I'll take respect over fear
every day of the week and.

1127
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:24,360
I would as well.
That's that's what I took away

1128
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:26,080
from that.
It made such an impression.

1129
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:28,480
I couldn't have been much more
than nine, right?

1130
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:31,640
But that stuck with me.
And that's that's kind of how I

1131
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:36,680
raised my my kids.
I would imagine that that, and

1132
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:38,960
to be fair, I think that's
probably kind of the

1133
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:41,360
relationship we need to have
with our Father in heaven as

1134
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:44,840
well, right?
A feeling that we can go to him,

1135
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:49,760
that he's not there just to drop
the hammer, he's he's there to

1136
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,120
help as well.
And and I somehow get the

1137
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:54,640
feeling, and I can't explain
how, other than this story you

1138
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:57,960
talked about.
I think John W Taylor has a very

1139
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:01,520
similar relationship with his
Father in Heaven, where he feels

1140
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:07,120
like he can he he is empowered
enough to say you got to give me

1141
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:09,280
a sign that this is correct
because I'm freaking out.

1142
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,640
He he clearly didn't feel like
his prayers hit a ceiling once

1143
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,040
he once.
He is right like God's hearing

1144
01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:21,800
him, he fully believes that, and
clearly God shows him that he

1145
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:25,520
hears him all right.
So around this time period John

1146
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:32,920
Taylor receives the 1882
Revelation which tells us that

1147
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:37,040
then men who do not live
celestial plural marriage will

1148
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:42,360
begin to be dropped from
leadership positions and to fill

1149
01:13:43,440 --> 01:13:46,840
vacancies in Quorum of the Total
Apostles and the Presidency of

1150
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:50,960
the 70s.
They call Seymour B Young to be

1151
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:53,280
a member of the presidency of
the 70s.

1152
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:57,240
He comes into the story later.
So remember Seymour B.

1153
01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:59,800
Young.
He does live plural marriage

1154
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:02,160
because that was one of the
conditions.

1155
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:08,160
He was not living it when John
Taylor got a revelation, and I

1156
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:12,040
don't know if Heber J Grant was,
but he was one called in that

1157
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:16,840
revelation to the 12 and George
Teasdale was the other one.

1158
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:22,480
All three of them are involved
heavily in this time period, and

1159
01:14:22,480 --> 01:14:26,080
all three of them have performed
at least one post manifesto

1160
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,920
plural marriage.
OK, over.

1161
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,440
Wow.
So this, this, this 1882

1162
01:14:32,440 --> 01:14:34,280
revelation leaves a mark on
these men.

1163
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:36,280
I don't know if it does or not.
I'm just.

1164
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:40,000
I'm throwing that out there as a
historical footnote that I find

1165
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:44,120
very interesting though that
called by revelation and Seymour

1166
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:47,600
B.
Young, Heber J, and George

1167
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:53,480
Teasdale, him especially heavy
post manifesto plural marriage

1168
01:14:55,200 --> 01:15:01,640
ordinances in any case.
So that stuff's going on in on

1169
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:08,600
October 18th, 1884, John Taylor
is subpoenaed to court to

1170
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:13,200
testify because of the the law.
You know stuff that's going on.

1171
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:18,320
And I wanted to read some of
that conversation, some of the

1172
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:20,280
TypeScript from that from that
court.

1173
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:28,400
Let's see the the attorney asks.
There's a doctrine of the

1174
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:30,120
church.
Is there not, Mr. Taylor, of

1175
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:32,400
plural marriage?
Why, certainly there is.

1176
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:35,720
Well, now, does the church.
Does not the church require that

1177
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:38,240
when members of its faith are
about to enter into a plural

1178
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:40,880
marriage that such marriages
should be performed in one of

1179
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:42,880
the endowment houses?
No, Sir.

1180
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,680
Are not the are not plural
marriages entered into by

1181
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:51,160
members of the church?
So, so far as you know, are they

1182
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:52,440
performed in the endowment
house?

1183
01:15:52,440 --> 01:15:55,960
No, Sir.
And Mr. Dickinson says, where

1184
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:58,200
are they performed if not in the
endowment house?

1185
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:02,080
John Taylor says, I cannot say.
So they're trying to trip them

1186
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:04,520
up.
They're trying to basically

1187
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:08,360
seize control of the endowment
house and get probable cause to

1188
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:09,640
seize it.
Right.

1189
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:13,480
Saying if these plural marriages
are going on there, we can go

1190
01:16:13,480 --> 01:16:17,640
and take whatever is in there.
And so they're trying to get him

1191
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:20,640
to admit that that that's being
done in the endowment house.

1192
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:22,600
And he's saying, no, we're not
doing it there.

1193
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:26,120
Do you know of any plural
marriages ever having been

1194
01:16:26,120 --> 01:16:28,720
entered into by members of the
church outside the endowment

1195
01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:29,480
house?
Yes.

1196
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:33,320
Who I could not say.
Is there any place called an

1197
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,360
endowment house, a temple or
known by any other name which is

1198
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:40,080
set apart as a place for the
celebration of plural marriages?

1199
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:44,320
Not specifically.
I I do not ask you if it is set

1200
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:46,840
apart exclusive of other things.
We understand that.

1201
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:49,680
I repeat the question.
Is there any place which is set

1202
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:52,520
apart as a place for the
celebration of plural marriages?

1203
01:16:53,480 --> 01:16:56,880
President Taylor says there is
no specific place set apart for

1204
01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:00,440
the celebration of marriages.
Question what temples were there

1205
01:17:00,440 --> 01:17:03,360
prior to the time the Logan
Temple was completed?

1206
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:08,040
Answer There is a temple down in
Saint George question then prior

1207
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:10,520
to the time when the Logan
Temple was dedicated in May

1208
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:13,120
last.
I understand you to say that

1209
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:16,280
there was no place set apart for
the celebration of the rites of

1210
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:19,560
matrimony except the Endowment
House and the temple at Saint

1211
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:21,160
George.
Answer.

1212
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:22,880
I think you misunderstand me,
Sir.

1213
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:25,640
Question.
Well, please be kind enough to

1214
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:27,360
correct me.
Answer.

1215
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:30,360
I do not wish it to be
understood that any place was

1216
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:32,880
set apart for the purpose of
matrimony, not for that

1217
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:36,400
exclusively question.
Now, are there are there no

1218
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:38,480
other places than those that you
have mentioned?

1219
01:17:38,480 --> 01:17:41,880
For the Church authorizes the
right of plural marriages to be

1220
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:44,360
performed?
President Taylor answers the

1221
01:17:44,360 --> 01:17:46,920
right of plural marriage can be
performed in other places.

1222
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:50,400
There is no place set apart
specifically for it.

1223
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:54,400
As I have said, there are places
that are appointed for a great

1224
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:57,320
many ceremonies, among which is
the ceremony of marriage.

1225
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,040
The ceremony of marriage can be
performed outside any of these

1226
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:03,320
places.
I'm Speaking of plural

1227
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:04,640
marriages.
Yes, Sir.

1228
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:08,880
And so he goes on and he's just
telling him straight up that

1229
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:10,640
we're not doing this in the
endowment house.

1230
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:13,800
It doesn't take an endowment
house, doesn't take a temple to

1231
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:21,280
to do these marriages.
And he asks, if parties are

1232
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:23,920
living here in Salt Lake,
members of the Mormon faith, a

1233
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:26,760
man and a woman who are desirous
to enter into plural marriage,

1234
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:31,240
would they not be required to go
have the ceremony performed in

1235
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:35,720
an endowment house?
Then he says, it would be the

1236
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:39,440
authority to get married that
would pass no matter where it

1237
01:18:39,440 --> 01:18:41,840
was.
Well, who gives the authority?

1238
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:44,240
I give that authority in all
cases.

1239
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,600
Generally, in all cases.
Is there any other persons

1240
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:50,800
authorized to grant that
dispensation?

1241
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:53,560
There are persons I might
appoint.

1242
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:57,480
Have you conferred upon any
person that authority within the

1243
01:18:57,480 --> 01:18:59,360
last three years?
Yes, Sir.

1244
01:18:59,920 --> 01:19:02,640
Who?
Sometimes Joseph F Smith,

1245
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:06,240
sometimes George Q Cannon.
I found that interesting.

1246
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:09,800
Yeah.
Do you not remember, or do you

1247
01:19:09,800 --> 01:19:12,520
remember any others upon whom
you conferred that authority

1248
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:15,040
within that time?
I do not remember any at

1249
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:17,880
present, but there are.
But you are the person who

1250
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:19,560
confers the authority?
Yes, Sir.

1251
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:24,640
Then you do know upon whom you
do confer authority.

1252
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,680
And he says there are hundreds
of people who have authority.

1253
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:33,840
Oh, in this, in this city?
Well, there are a great many in

1254
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:36,520
this city.
Has anyone not authorized the

1255
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:38,680
right to celebrate the rights of
matrimony?

1256
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:40,280
No, Sir, it must.
It must.

1257
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:44,520
It must be by one upon whom the
authority has been conferred by

1258
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:45,360
you.
Correct.

1259
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:48,720
No, Sir, not by me.
Who confers the authority?

1260
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:51,640
Sometimes others.
So he had all.

1261
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:56,960
So this tells you that he had
not only authorized other people

1262
01:19:56,960 --> 01:19:59,400
to take care of the this
business, but he had authorized

1263
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:02,920
other people to authorize others
to take care of this business.

1264
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:08,520
Yeah, and and what?
You can't draw a straight line

1265
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:16,400
to it, but it's it's to me it's
pretty pretty, a pretty strong

1266
01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:19,760
indication that second
anointings are getting passed

1267
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:21,320
around pretty heavily at this
point.

1268
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:28,920
Well, I do know for a fact that
even in hiding which hasn't

1269
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:33,000
happened yet at this point he
was signing recommends for those

1270
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:35,360
things to be taken care of and I
don't know where they were being

1271
01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:40,240
done inside outside of endowment
house off clearly doesn't

1272
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:43,320
matter.
And he goes on to say as much

1273
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:46,280
actually because they're trying
to trip him up.

1274
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:49,480
Right to say this is done in the
endowment house so that they can

1275
01:20:49,480 --> 01:20:54,360
get in.
And they also asked him, I

1276
01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:57,680
think, I think they asked him if
not it's a maybe it's a this

1277
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:00,560
cross examination.
He gets examined by the church

1278
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:02,560
attorney later during this
thing.

1279
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:07,160
Franklin S Richards.
And he says, President Taylor in

1280
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:10,000
your direct examination you
spoke of having appointed or

1281
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:12,600
authorized persons to celebrate
plural marriages.

1282
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:16,920
State whether or not authorize.
State whether or not such

1283
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:21,360
authorization or appointments
extend only to plural marriages,

1284
01:21:21,400 --> 01:21:25,560
or whether the appointees had
the authority to celebrate first

1285
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:28,280
marriages Also.
In other words, was the

1286
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,880
authorization general as to
marriage or confined to plural

1287
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:35,480
marriage only?
And John Taylor answers, it was

1288
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:40,440
general in all these matters and
things performed in the house,

1289
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:45,320
and that was an interesting
thing to include at the end

1290
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:47,880
there.
And things performed in the

1291
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:48,680
house.
Perf.

1292
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:52,720
Presumably meaning the endowment
of house, presumably meaning

1293
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:57,000
other things aside from the
marriage itself, which I'm not

1294
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:58,600
going to.
I I don't know more than that.

1295
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:00,840
That's just what the TypeScript
says.

1296
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:04,920
Right.
And so Franklin Richards asks

1297
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:06,720
again.
You made reference.

1298
01:22:07,480 --> 01:22:08,840
Your lawyers have to be clear,
right?

1299
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:10,000
Yeah.
So he asks them again.

1300
01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:13,360
You who made reference to
authorization or recommendation

1301
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:16,000
of parties to the buildings at
which these ceremonies are

1302
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:18,080
performed.
State also whether the

1303
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:23,320
regulations and recommend you
that you refer to applies

1304
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:26,600
equally to parties who go to
celebrate marriages, first

1305
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:29,360
marriages, or plural marriages,
or whether there is any

1306
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:32,320
distinction.
And John Taylor says there is no

1307
01:22:32,320 --> 01:22:35,000
distinction.
So John Taylor is saying in

1308
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:37,160
court that there is no
distinction between the

1309
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:41,280
authority to perform a marriage,
whether it's a first marriage or

1310
01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:44,320
a plural marriage.
It's the authority to seal by

1311
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:46,160
the priesthood.
Is the authority to seal by the

1312
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:47,440
priesthood.
Right.

1313
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:52,640
And The funny thing about that
is 40 years later, Hebrew J.

1314
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:56,560
Grant, when he's president of
the church, says there's no man

1315
01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:58,760
living upon the earth that has
the authority to seal plural

1316
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:02,120
marriages.
Which wouldn't that mean

1317
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:06,320
technically that if he's saying
that since John Taylor is saying

1318
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:08,880
that that authority is the same,
that Heber J.

1319
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:11,920
Grant would be admitting that
there's no authority to seal

1320
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:14,520
first marriages.
Yeah, yeah, if you're going to,

1321
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:15,480
if you're going to hold the
what?

1322
01:23:15,480 --> 01:23:20,480
Taylor said by de facto, that's
exactly what Heber J Grant is

1323
01:23:20,480 --> 01:23:23,040
saying.
Anyway, I I hope that wasn't too

1324
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:26,840
long winded.
But no lays the groundwork for

1325
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:33,000
things that we know are it fits
with the context of what we know

1326
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:37,200
happens pretty soon after this.
In any case, John Taylor's own

1327
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:38,400
words.
I'm going to read some of that

1328
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:45,040
the next day, actually in Ogden.
He gives a talk and he says I

1329
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:48,320
was This is John Taylor, not
John W this is president John

1330
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:50,040
Taylor.
I was lately called upon as a

1331
01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:52,720
witness.
Perhaps you may have seen some

1332
01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:55,800
account of it in the papers, and
I want to make some explanation

1333
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:58,280
in relation to the matters that
I then presented.

1334
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:01,920
Because they are not generally
understood, I was required to

1335
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:03,880
divulge certain things.
I did not know.

1336
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:07,800
I did not know them to divulge.
Perhaps some of you have heard

1337
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:10,720
have had people come to you with
their confidences.

1338
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:13,360
I have, but I don't want to be a
confident.

1339
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:15,960
Why?
Because if they made a confidant

1340
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:19,840
of me and I was called the Ford
Tribunal, I cannot as an

1341
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:22,720
honorable man reveal their
confidences yet.

1342
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:25,640
It would be said I was a
transgressor of law.

1343
01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:29,120
But no honorable man can reveal
confidences that are committed

1344
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:31,360
to them.
Therefore I tell them to keep

1345
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:34,680
their own secrets and remember
what is the Mormon, what is

1346
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:37,000
called the Mormon creed?
Mind your own business.

1347
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:40,680
I don't want to know the secrets
of people, those that I cannot

1348
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:44,000
tell, and I could not tell very
much to that court, for I have

1349
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:48,360
studiously avoided knowing any
more than I could possibly help

1350
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:52,960
about such matters.
I was asked questions about our

1351
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:55,120
temple, which of course I could
not divulge.

1352
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:58,560
I was asked question questions
about records which I could not

1353
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:00,720
tell them because I did not
know.

1354
01:25:01,480 --> 01:25:04,120
I have studiously avoided
entering into a knowledge of

1355
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:05,240
these matters.
They did.

1356
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:08,200
They did not build our temples.
We have never had any

1357
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:09,960
revelations from God through
them.

1358
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:14,000
We may have had them from the
devils, though they have.

1359
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:16,600
They may have had them from the
devil, but never have the

1360
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:20,400
revelations of God from them.
And I think there are some

1361
01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:23,360
things we have a right to guard
sacredly in our own, in our own

1362
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:27,000
bosoms we are told the secret of
the Lord is with them, that fear

1363
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:29,280
Him, and He will show them His
covenant.

1364
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:32,920
Now if the Lord shall commit a
secret to me, I don't think I

1365
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:35,400
should tell it to anyone.
I don't think I would not unless

1366
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:38,160
he told me.
Then I do not want to know your

1367
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:40,720
secrets.
I was asked if certain

1368
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:42,920
ordinances could be performed in
different places.

1369
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:46,000
I told them yes, under certain
circumstances.

1370
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:50,560
Where I was asked.
Anywhere besides in temples?

1371
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:53,480
Yes, Anywhere Besides in the
endowment house?

1372
01:25:53,480 --> 01:25:55,160
Yes.
Where?

1373
01:25:55,360 --> 01:25:59,080
In some other house, In another
house, or out of doors, as the

1374
01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:02,640
circumstances might be.
Why did I say that?

1375
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:05,440
Is not a temple the proper
place?

1376
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:09,360
Yes, but it is said in our
revelations pertaining to these

1377
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:11,920
matters.
Verily, verily, I say unto you,

1378
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:15,040
when I give a commandment to any
of the sons of men to do a work

1379
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:18,400
unto my name, And those sons of
men go with all their might, and

1380
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:21,040
with all they have to perform
that work, and cease not their

1381
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:24,240
diligence, and their enemies
come upon them, and hinder them

1382
01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:27,520
from performing that work.
Behold, it behoove with me to

1383
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:30,320
require that work no more at the
hands of those sons of men, but

1384
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:34,400
accepted their offerings.
Thus, under such circumstances,

1385
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:37,960
we perceive that our operations
elsewhere will be correct.

1386
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:40,680
That makes no difference.
It is the authority of the

1387
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:43,560
priesthood, not the place that
validates and sanctifies the

1388
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:48,200
ordinance.
All right, so that's that deal.

1389
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:53,960
Moving along in the timeline,
January 1885, the pressures

1390
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:58,160
mount mounting and John Taylor
authorizes the purchase of

1391
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:02,240
100,000 acres of land in Mexico.
He's thinking they're going to

1392
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:05,120
have to bug out.
Yeah, he's looking for a place

1393
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:08,840
to bug out.
And if not, to at least get the

1394
01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:12,800
people that would be persecuted,
those living the principle into

1395
01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:16,600
hiding out there.
That was in January.

1396
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:21,000
On February 1st is the last day
John Taylor was in public.

1397
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:25,120
And he goes to the Tabernacle, I
believe.

1398
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:29,400
And there is an account of this
in the journal Discourses.

1399
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:34,120
It's volume 26, page 151.
And this is, this is the last

1400
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:36,120
discourse John Taylor ever gave
publicly.

1401
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:39,360
OK, No one.
And I thought that was umm,

1402
01:27:40,160 --> 01:27:43,640
it'll be appropriate to read.
You fled from Missouri to

1403
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:46,360
Illinois and then from Illinois
to this land.

1404
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:49,120
And why?
Why did you leave Illinois to

1405
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:51,400
come here?
Did you injure anybody?

1406
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:55,560
No.
They killed your prophets, and I

1407
01:27:55,560 --> 01:27:59,880
saw them murdered and was shot
most unmercifully myself under

1408
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:01,800
the pledge of protection from
the governor.

1409
01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:03,920
And they thought they had killed
me.

1410
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:06,000
But I am alive yet by the grace
of God.

1411
01:28:07,120 --> 01:28:09,640
Why had you to leave?
Because they murdered your

1412
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:12,480
prophets and wanted to possess
themselves of your property.

1413
01:28:13,400 --> 01:28:16,160
The history of these things is
quite familiar to you as Latter

1414
01:28:16,160 --> 01:28:18,760
Day Saints, and you do not think
that anything is strange.

1415
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:22,240
Some of our young people think
that the present proceedings are

1416
01:28:22,240 --> 01:28:25,680
very remarkable, but many of us
Gray headed folk have seen

1417
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:29,200
plenty of such proceedings and
have had many experiences of

1418
01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:31,120
this kind.
They are nothing new to us at

1419
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:33,440
all.
And did we ever expect them to

1420
01:28:33,440 --> 01:28:36,440
get better?
We have not so understood it.

1421
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:39,120
We are told in Scripture and
have kept teaching it all the

1422
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:42,640
while that the wicked would grow
worse and worse, deceiving and

1423
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:45,360
being deceived.
That is doctrine which I have

1424
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:47,640
believed in for the last 50
years.

1425
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:51,880
And I have, I have add a good
deal of testimony and practical

1426
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:55,760
confirmation on that point.
We expect that these things will

1427
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:58,560
transpire.
We have been told about secret

1428
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:01,600
organizations that should exist,
and they are beginning to

1429
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:04,880
permeate these United States and
are laying the foundation for

1430
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:07,840
disruption, disintegration and
destruction.

1431
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:11,120
The whole Nation Today is
standing a little volcano, but

1432
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:14,240
they do not seem to comprehend
it well.

1433
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:16,160
Are we surprised?
I am not.

1434
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:18,560
It is.
It is strictly in accordance

1435
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:20,840
with my faith.
It is strictly in accordance

1436
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:24,400
with the Old Testament
scriptures, and it is strictly

1437
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:25,800
in accordance with the Book of
Mormon.

1438
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:29,600
It is strictly in accordance
with the revelations given to us

1439
01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:32,840
by Joseph Smith.
And all these events that have

1440
01:29:32,840 --> 01:29:35,120
been predicted will most
assuredly transpire.

1441
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:39,320
But I suppose it is necessary
that judgment should first begin

1442
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:42,640
at the House of God.
God has revealed to us certain

1443
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:46,080
principles pertaining to the
future which men may take

1444
01:29:46,080 --> 01:29:49,040
objection to.
He has revealed unto us certain

1445
01:29:49,040 --> 01:29:53,600
principles pertaining to the
perpetu perpetuity of man and of

1446
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:57,040
woman, pertaining to the sacred
rights and obligations which

1447
01:29:57,040 --> 01:29:59,880
existed from the beginning.
And he has told us to obey these

1448
01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:03,440
laws.
The nation tells us if you do,

1449
01:30:03,640 --> 01:30:07,520
we will persecute and prescribe
you What shall we obey?

1450
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:11,880
I would like to obey and place
myself in subject, in subjection

1451
01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:16,160
to every law of man.
What, then Am I to disobey the

1452
01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:19,200
law of God?
Congress will make no law

1453
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:22,440
respecting an establishment of
religion or prohibiting the free

1454
01:30:22,440 --> 01:30:25,560
exercise thereof.
Now I believe they have violated

1455
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:28,960
that, and they have violated
their oaths, those that those

1456
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:32,000
that have engaged in these
things and passed that law, and

1457
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:33,600
those that are seeking to carry
it out.

1458
01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:36,360
Congress and the President of
the United States, and the

1459
01:30:36,360 --> 01:30:39,880
judiciary and all administrators
of the law, are as much bound by

1460
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:44,640
that instrument as I am and as
you are, and a sworn to maintain

1461
01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:47,160
it inviolate.
It is for them to settle these

1462
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:48,960
matters between themselves and
their God.

1463
01:30:49,720 --> 01:30:51,760
That is my faith in relation to
this matter.

1464
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:54,720
Yet by their action they're
interfering with my rights, my

1465
01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:58,360
liberty, and my religion, and
with those sacred principles

1466
01:30:58,360 --> 01:31:02,320
that bind me to my God, to my
family, to my wives, and to my

1467
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:05,840
children.
And shall I, and shall I be

1468
01:31:05,840 --> 01:31:08,600
recreant to all those noble
principles that ought to guide

1469
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:11,480
and govern men?
No, never.

1470
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:13,280
No, never.
No, never.

1471
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:16,520
I can endure more than I have
done, and all that God will

1472
01:31:16,520 --> 01:31:20,880
enable enable me to endure.
I can die for the truth, but I

1473
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:24,360
cannot as an honorable man,
disobey my God at their at their

1474
01:31:24,360 --> 01:31:28,240
behest, forsake my wives and my
children, and trample these holy

1475
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:31,520
and eternal obligations under
foot that God has given me to

1476
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:34,280
keep and which reach into the
eternities that are to come.

1477
01:31:34,280 --> 01:31:36,120
I won't do it.
So help me God.

1478
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:39,400
And then he strikes a book on
the desk.

1479
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:44,160
Going hard.
Yeah, and that's the lot.

1480
01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:47,280
Those were some of his last
words and I believe also, and I

1481
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:51,960
guess I didn't have it in here.
He also tells how Joseph Smith

1482
01:31:51,960 --> 01:31:57,080
introduced the principal to him
in Nauvoo, where they were out

1483
01:31:57,080 --> 01:31:59,560
on a horse ride, I think by the
graveyard in Nauvoo.

1484
01:32:00,160 --> 01:32:03,840
And Joseph tells him he had
already revealed it to him.

1485
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:07,920
But John Taylor, and I don't
know if the others of the 12 had

1486
01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:10,240
got, had started taking other
wives yet.

1487
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:16,280
But Joseph told John Taylor
specifically, you've got to do

1488
01:32:16,280 --> 01:32:21,240
this, we've got to do this.
And if you don't, the keys will

1489
01:32:21,240 --> 01:32:24,560
be turned against us.
Oh, right.

1490
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:31,680
So there's a very real thing
here that is not talked about as

1491
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:35,600
much as maybe as it should, and
I want to touch on it more later

1492
01:32:36,120 --> 01:32:40,720
than I will now.
But it's like if you don't use

1493
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:42,440
it, you lose it.
Right.

1494
01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:48,840
If you do not uphold these keys
and use these keys, they'll

1495
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:50,160
what?
What does that even mean to be?

1496
01:32:50,440 --> 01:32:52,680
They'll be turned against you.
That sounds rough.

1497
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:56,560
Whatever that.
Yeah, that to me that sounds

1498
01:32:56,560 --> 01:33:00,120
like that.
That sounds like what God told

1499
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:03,840
Joseph Smith in the In the Grove
about the other religions,

1500
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:05,160
right?
They draw near to me with their

1501
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:06,920
lips, but their hearts are far
from me.

1502
01:33:07,440 --> 01:33:11,880
You can wear whatever label you
want to wear, but at the end of

1503
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:14,920
the day, it's all about the
works that you're willing to

1504
01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:20,720
perform, and those keys will
stand as a witness against you

1505
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:24,960
if not exercised.
Yep.

1506
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:30,840
And even can you exercise them
legally or lawfully at a certain

1507
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:33,480
point if you've not?
It's an interesting.

1508
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:37,560
Magnified that Commission, I
don't know, but sounds like that

1509
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:40,160
to a degree.
And I think these things are

1510
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:42,840
heavily on his mind at this
point as he's going into hiding

1511
01:33:43,440 --> 01:33:48,880
and he's remembering that we
that these keys will be turned

1512
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:53,880
against us, whatever that means.
If this does not go forward in

1513
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:55,880
any case.
So he goes into hiding on that.

1514
01:33:55,960 --> 01:34:01,520
The very same day.
That was February 1st, February

1515
01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:09,440
February 3rd, 2 days later.
The Idaho Test Oath law went

1516
01:34:09,440 --> 01:34:16,640
into effect, which basically it
disenfranchised all Mormons from

1517
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:21,000
holding any public office or
voting, regardless of being

1518
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:23,960
polygamous or not, that you just
had to be Mormon.

1519
01:34:24,640 --> 01:34:29,040
Right.
And if it wasn't that one, there

1520
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:32,280
is a law later that happens
where that is the case.

1521
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:38,560
February 9th, 1885, the 1st of
350 families from Snowflake, AZ

1522
01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:42,600
who are practicing polygamy move
to the land bought in Mexico

1523
01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:49,560
which was the the Casas Casa
Grande River in the state of

1524
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:55,840
Chihuahua.
And George Teasdale, who was

1525
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:59,840
called by revelation in 1882 by
John through John Taylor, was

1526
01:34:59,840 --> 01:35:04,560
called to preside as the mission
president and as the local top

1527
01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:07,760
dog over the Mexican colonies
for the next few years.

1528
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:14,440
And so he and a patriarch.
The mission presidency was

1529
01:35:15,360 --> 01:35:21,000
George Teasdale, Alexander F
McDonald and Heelman Pratt, the

1530
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:25,320
son of Harley P Pratt.
And every single one of those

1531
01:35:25,320 --> 01:35:29,680
three men end up being post
manifesto polygamist or helping

1532
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:40,280
others enter into.
Yeah, and Alexander F McDonald

1533
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:44,800
ends up becoming a patriarch in
that area once it goes from

1534
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:46,720
being a mission district into a
stake.

1535
01:35:48,880 --> 01:35:53,520
Now going back to John W Taylor,
he publishes an article in the

1536
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:55,560
Desert News while his father is
in hiding.

1537
01:35:56,440 --> 01:36:02,280
Comes out on April 6th, 1885,
and he says the principle of

1538
01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:05,880
plural marriage, against which
the main force of the opposition

1539
01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:09,360
is being hurled, has been a
divine institution from before

1540
01:36:09,360 --> 01:36:12,480
the foundation of the world.
There has been some talk about

1541
01:36:12,480 --> 01:36:15,280
President Taylor issuing A
revelation abolishing that

1542
01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:18,280
system of marriage.
When a revelation of that kind

1543
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:21,160
is given, it will be when the
Lord has no use for the Latter

1544
01:36:21,160 --> 01:36:24,880
Day Saints, and this will never
transpire, for He has promised

1545
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:28,280
to give them the Kingdom and and
to sustain them.

1546
01:36:29,440 --> 01:36:31,360
So he's he's laying it all out
there.

1547
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:35,840
That's how he feels about it.
Let me stop and ask here this

1548
01:36:35,840 --> 01:36:39,720
question here real quick.
Is there any sort of record

1549
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:44,960
about what's happening
personally between John Taylor

1550
01:36:44,960 --> 01:36:47,520
and his and his son John W
Taylor at this point?

1551
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:50,960
There was one story I was going
to tell, actually.

1552
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:55,000
Thanks for bringing it up.
So John Taylor was being

1553
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:59,600
shuffled around, you know, house
to house, hiding place to hiding

1554
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:04,320
place.
And it was a really risky move.

1555
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:10,160
Perhaps it was thought, well, if
you're in plain sight, they're

1556
01:37:10,160 --> 01:37:12,160
not going to, you know, they're
not going to look in plain

1557
01:37:12,160 --> 01:37:15,360
sight.
So that you they they decided to

1558
01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:18,640
have him at the Gardo House,
which was where the president of

1559
01:37:18,640 --> 01:37:21,760
the church lived.
So, and it wasn't like it was a

1560
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:23,560
regular thing.
But one night he went back home.

1561
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:26,360
Right then you're not going to
look here, right?

1562
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:29,320
The 11 day, You know, we're just
going to be here for one night.

1563
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:32,960
You've been gone for so long,
then guess who comes knocking

1564
01:37:32,960 --> 01:37:35,360
through the door?
The federal government.

1565
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:37,440
The federal government.
Yeah.

1566
01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:40,120
On the very on the one night
that he's that he's there.

1567
01:37:40,280 --> 01:37:45,480
Well, John W Taylor's also in
the house by the at the time and

1568
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:51,800
the guards get them get John
Taylor into some room in the

1569
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:55,240
upstairs and they.
I don't recall if it was a

1570
01:37:55,240 --> 01:37:57,760
closet or some other.
I think it was a hide him in the

1571
01:37:57,760 --> 01:38:06,320
closet bedroom closet and their
search in the house and the

1572
01:38:06,760 --> 01:38:11,040
worst thing that can possibly
happen it was either a sneeze or

1573
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:14,160
a coughing fit or something like
that and John Taylor sneezes out

1574
01:38:14,160 --> 01:38:16,360
loud or goes into a coughing
fit, whatever.

1575
01:38:16,640 --> 01:38:18,640
Literally.
Yeah.

1576
01:38:18,640 --> 01:38:23,960
Draws the attention and guards
rush upstairs.

1577
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:30,640
And one of the wives was able to
intercept them and they're like,

1578
01:38:30,640 --> 01:38:36,560
move aside and all that.
And she's able to pin it on John

1579
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:39,720
W Taylor and say, you know, I
don't know if it was his mom or

1580
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:44,040
who it was, but, you know, no.
But, you know, young John W

1581
01:38:44,040 --> 01:38:49,040
Taylor's here and he's sick.
He has a cult and you know and

1582
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:53,000
so they go and get him and sure
enough you he was under the

1583
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:56,720
weather looked like it and he
was able to put up a good.

1584
01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:00,600
Good front.
Good front there to save his

1585
01:39:00,600 --> 01:39:05,840
dad's butt.
Boy, sure, sure, sure, sure.

1586
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:08,080
Puts a new twist on calling in
sick, doesn't it?

1587
01:39:10,120 --> 01:39:13,240
Yeah, that could have.
Things could have ended up very

1588
01:39:13,240 --> 01:39:16,360
differently had that happened
right there.

1589
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:20,840
I mean that's, I don't think.
I mean, it's not that was before

1590
01:39:20,840 --> 01:39:25,080
1886, if you catch my drift.
So if I recall, so that was all

1591
01:39:26,320 --> 01:39:28,800
the keys.
Oh yeah, all the keys at that

1592
01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:34,200
point rested with with the 12
and and the first presidency.

1593
01:39:34,200 --> 01:39:37,080
So if if one of them's caught,
it's a major blow.

1594
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:43,640
Yeah, and John Taylor was, I
mean he was a prophet, he was

1595
01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:45,400
getting thus saith the Lord
revelations.

1596
01:39:45,400 --> 01:39:47,880
And he's like like his son that
were discussing me.

1597
01:39:47,920 --> 01:39:53,040
He was able to get the word of
the Lord and we start to see

1598
01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:57,800
after these two men kind of go
away, that that seems to happen

1599
01:39:57,800 --> 01:39:59,400
less and less over time.
Right.

1600
01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:02,400
And so that would have been a
very bad thing.

1601
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:09,240
But interesting, around this
time, around September 28th,

1602
01:40:10,840 --> 01:40:17,160
there's a discussion of what
kind of concessions can we start

1603
01:40:17,160 --> 01:40:23,160
to make between George Q Cannon
and a guy named George Miller,

1604
01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:26,360
who was a doctor.
And I don't think he gets very

1605
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:28,560
far, but it's just like talk,
right?

1606
01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:30,840
Like what?
What's going on?

1607
01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:33,560
What kind of deals would we have
to make?

1608
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:37,480
What would we have to say to get
this stuff to stop?

1609
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:41,880
And that kind of leads into the
Lauren Wooley story a little bit

1610
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:44,640
because this is the time frame
that we're talking about where

1611
01:40:45,240 --> 01:40:51,640
talk of compromise was, was Prep
present at, you know, and

1612
01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:57,960
significant to this time also.
And there are interesting

1613
01:40:57,960 --> 01:41:02,040
witnesses connected to this in
November of 1885.

1614
01:41:02,040 --> 01:41:06,960
We're not quite in 1886 yet, but
1885 November, Joseph Smith the

1615
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:10,960
Third was in the state of Utah
on a mission for the RLDS

1616
01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:12,720
Church.
Right then.

1617
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:15,920
At the same time, he was at the
same time that the government's

1618
01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:17,840
persecuting the church for
polygamy.

1619
01:41:18,440 --> 01:41:21,680
They're preaching against
polygamy and denying that it was

1620
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:25,760
ever taught by Joseph Smith.
And so they're on a mission to

1621
01:41:25,760 --> 01:41:27,920
to rescue sheep from the fold,
you know?

1622
01:41:28,360 --> 01:41:34,040
Right.
And let's see, you know that'll

1623
01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:37,760
play in in a minute.
On November 16th, 1885, George Q

1624
01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:43,120
Cannon writes in the evening,
President Taylor told me that he

1625
01:41:43,120 --> 01:41:45,520
had some very pleasant
manifestations this morning

1626
01:41:45,520 --> 01:41:48,440
regarding himself and myself and
the work in general.

1627
01:41:49,120 --> 01:41:51,680
The Lord had signified to him
that his sins were forgiven him,

1628
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:54,760
and that his laborers were
accepted of him, and that he

1629
01:41:54,760 --> 01:41:57,920
would have a place prepared for
him as he had for Joseph, and

1630
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:01,240
that he should dwell with him.
Also, that my laborers were

1631
01:42:01,240 --> 01:42:04,560
acceptable to the Lord, and that
he was pleased with me, as my

1632
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:08,280
course was satisfactory to him.
And he heard our prayers, and

1633
01:42:08,280 --> 01:42:11,360
would it that he had heard our
prayers, and He would answer

1634
01:42:11,360 --> 01:42:15,440
them, And that he had given his
angels charge concerning us, and

1635
01:42:15,440 --> 01:42:18,760
they were watching over us, and
no hand should prevail against

1636
01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:20,640
his work, for it should roll
forth.

1637
01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:28,400
And so there is a reminiscence
from Mariner W Merrill, who's an

1638
01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:33,720
apostle at this time, that while
Joseph Smith the Third, was in

1639
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:40,440
Utah, John Taylor has had a
visitation from Joseph Smith and

1640
01:42:40,440 --> 01:42:44,800
talked about that.
Chosen for a visitation from

1641
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:49,400
Joseph Smith the Third.
No, the prophet, he's

1642
01:42:49,400 --> 01:42:51,440
resurrected body by the way,
sorry.

1643
01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:58,080
And they had this conversation
regarding the course of Joseph

1644
01:42:58,080 --> 01:43:03,440
the 3rd and Joseph Smith, Junior
remarked to President Taylor his

1645
01:43:03,440 --> 01:43:07,280
sorrow for seeing his son's
actions, but promised John

1646
01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:10,720
Taylor that the raid would cease
soon.

1647
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:15,160
And so that's an interesting
prelude to.

1648
01:43:15,440 --> 01:43:22,160
Yeah, the woolly story, yeah.
And so we see interesting things

1649
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:25,800
happening, according to D
Michael Quinn in December.

1650
01:43:26,520 --> 01:43:32,280
So the next month after this
revelation, and I'm not sure, it

1651
01:43:32,280 --> 01:43:34,520
looks like that could have been
this visitation.

1652
01:43:35,080 --> 01:43:36,920
Yeah.
So this this would have happened

1653
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:40,920
in in November of of 1885.
December of 1885.

1654
01:43:40,920 --> 01:43:44,600
It sounds like Christ also
visits John Taylor.

1655
01:43:46,360 --> 01:43:49,920
He D Michael Quinn in a
conference talk he gave to the

1656
01:43:49,920 --> 01:43:55,960
Allred group in 1991, says there
is no question that again, the

1657
01:43:55,960 --> 01:44:00,560
historical evidence in terms of
what I'm in terms of what I am

1658
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:04,920
bound by, the the historical
evidence in terms of what I am

1659
01:44:04,920 --> 01:44:08,680
bound by in my training as a
historian there, there is no

1660
01:44:08,680 --> 01:44:12,000
question historically to cast
any doubt on the 1886

1661
01:44:12,000 --> 01:44:14,880
revelation.
There can also be no question

1662
01:44:15,200 --> 01:44:19,840
that John Taylor spoke with God
face to face in 1885 and also in

1663
01:44:19,840 --> 01:44:23,040
1886.
I'll refer to you to that.

1664
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:27,080
I'll refer you to that in
December 1885, Joseph Smith the

1665
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:31,080
third, Well, actually from
November to December, Joseph

1666
01:44:31,080 --> 01:44:33,320
Smith the third of the
reorganized church, was going

1667
01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:35,640
throughout Utah preaching that
plural marriage was not a

1668
01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:38,920
practice of his father and that
it was only a corrupt, evil

1669
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:42,160
intention of Brigham Young.
During that time, John Taylor

1670
01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:45,440
received a revelation in
December where in Jesus Christ

1671
01:44:45,440 --> 01:44:48,920
appeared to him face to face
That revelation and that

1672
01:44:48,920 --> 01:44:52,960
appearance of Christ to John
Taylor was being referred to in

1673
01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:56,280
people's Diaries.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

1674
01:44:56,280 --> 01:44:59,160
Renegade podcast?
Well, good news, we're on

1675
01:44:59,160 --> 01:45:01,600
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

1676
01:45:01,600 --> 01:45:03,800
from.
The first one, the Slightly

1677
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:07,040
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hear the podcast without all

1678
01:45:07,040 --> 01:45:09,000
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1679
01:45:09,400 --> 01:45:12,080
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more in depth experience,

1680
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:15,040
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package where you can hear ad

1681
01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:18,000
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1682
01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:21,880
Finally, for those who want to
go full Renegade, that package

1683
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:24,560
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1684
01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:28,600
two packages, plus an extra show
where myself and Ben Winfield

1685
01:45:28,840 --> 01:45:31,720
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1686
01:45:31,720 --> 01:45:33,800
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You will also get exclusive

1687
01:45:33,800 --> 01:45:37,560
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1688
01:45:37,560 --> 01:45:40,080
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1689
01:45:40,080 --> 01:45:42,920
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Go to Patreon today and get your

1690
01:45:42,920 --> 01:45:46,880
exclusive content.
In meetings of local wards as

1691
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:50,400
early as May of 1886.
So this is months before the

1692
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:54,640
September 1886 events that you
people publicly, that you know

1693
01:45:54,640 --> 01:45:57,040
people publicly saying and
recording in their Diaries that

1694
01:45:57,040 --> 01:46:00,640
John Taylor had received
revelate A revelation concerning

1695
01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:03,680
plural marriage and had spoken
with Christ face to face.

1696
01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:08,520
So that in the July or May 1886
journalist and he's talking

1697
01:46:08,520 --> 01:46:11,880
about one of them was from a guy
named Philo Dibble who I believe

1698
01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:14,120
lived at the same time as Joseph
Smith as well.

1699
01:46:14,160 --> 01:46:18,800
He was an old timer right in his
journal that he went to the high

1700
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:24,840
priests Forum meeting and or no,
he it was actually someone

1701
01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:25,880
else's journal.
Someone.

1702
01:46:25,880 --> 01:46:31,080
It was John Moon Clements, I
want to say, writing that

1703
01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:34,640
thought Philo Dibble came to the
high priest meeting saying that

1704
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:38,840
he had heard that John Taylor
had seen Joseph Smith in his

1705
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:40,520
resurrected body.
Wow.

1706
01:46:42,120 --> 01:46:48,640
Yeah, so these things are going
on not once, but as a series of

1707
01:46:49,080 --> 01:46:52,280
events.
Kind of kind of propping up

1708
01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:56,040
Taylor throughout these these
persecutions here.

1709
01:46:57,160 --> 01:46:59,560
Uh huh.
And if you needed a second

1710
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:02,040
comforter, I mean, that's what
it's called, right?

1711
01:47:02,040 --> 01:47:04,080
The comforter, yeah, that's,
that's what you even need.

1712
01:47:06,720 --> 01:47:12,520
So January 1886, John Taylor
receives a letter while he's

1713
01:47:12,520 --> 01:47:15,080
hiding on the underground at the
Carlisle residence.

1714
01:47:16,120 --> 01:47:19,720
Someone writes to him.
Dear brother, I write you in

1715
01:47:19,720 --> 01:47:22,880
kindly and brotherly love.
You are hidden away and cannot

1716
01:47:22,880 --> 01:47:25,840
know the true feelings of our
people and those that surround

1717
01:47:26,040 --> 01:47:28,760
and and those that surround.
You are afraid to tell you if

1718
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:31,200
they know.
There is a general murmur, a

1719
01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:34,360
feeling of uncertainty that has
not been manifested since the

1720
01:47:34,360 --> 01:47:37,360
days of Navu.
The people say that you and

1721
01:47:37,360 --> 01:47:41,480
Cannon and Smith have a run away
and left the masses to go to the

1722
01:47:41,480 --> 01:47:46,080
penitentiary or humiliate
themselves before the courts as

1723
01:47:46,080 --> 01:47:48,680
they may.
And if they take the latter

1724
01:47:48,680 --> 01:47:53,160
course, you ostracize them like
you have Sharp and you, which is

1725
01:47:53,280 --> 01:47:54,680
obviously the last name of some
guy.

1726
01:47:55,400 --> 01:47:58,520
You will force men to go to the
pen when you will not go

1727
01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:02,400
yourselves.
The murmurings Have the

1728
01:48:02,400 --> 01:48:06,080
murmurings go so far as to say
if Brother Brigham were with us,

1729
01:48:06,080 --> 01:48:09,800
it would be otherwise and wish
for a man that could lead us out

1730
01:48:09,800 --> 01:48:13,080
of the darkness.
Why does not someone to come to

1731
01:48:13,080 --> 01:48:15,040
the front and save our people
from division?

1732
01:48:15,680 --> 01:48:18,680
If these things continue in this
way much longer, there will be

1733
01:48:18,680 --> 01:48:21,120
more danger within than without
the Church.

1734
01:48:21,760 --> 01:48:24,800
Something should be done by your
course.

1735
01:48:24,800 --> 01:48:28,640
You are not uniting the people.
You are setting one apart, The

1736
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:32,760
polygamists who want to obey the
laws of the land against those

1737
01:48:32,760 --> 01:48:38,400
who will not obey them but hide
or go into court and swear

1738
01:48:38,400 --> 01:48:40,840
falsely, you will do nothing for
us.

1739
01:48:41,240 --> 01:48:43,920
How in the name of God can you
still claim to be a leader when

1740
01:48:43,920 --> 01:48:46,720
you have ceased to be a leader,
but instead become a divider?

1741
01:48:47,040 --> 01:48:49,200
Why do you not do something for
the people?

1742
01:48:49,240 --> 01:48:52,080
What hope have you?
You proclaimed to the world that

1743
01:48:52,080 --> 01:48:55,560
there are 2% polygamists and 98%
monogamists.

1744
01:48:55,560 --> 01:48:58,680
Now, with half of those in
polygamy going back on it and

1745
01:48:58,680 --> 01:49:02,440
the other half hiding away, what
do you expect to accomplish?

1746
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:06,680
In a word, why do you not advise
the people to obey the law of

1747
01:49:06,680 --> 01:49:11,080
the land you live in and get an
enabling act passed by Congress

1748
01:49:11,080 --> 01:49:13,200
and get Utah admitted as a
state?

1749
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:16,960
In this way it put a stop to all
the wrangling and let peace come

1750
01:49:17,160 --> 01:49:21,760
to so many unhappy families.
You are hardly aware of the many

1751
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:24,600
polygamists that sneak to the
governor and through him get a

1752
01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:28,280
pardon from the president to go
about their homes as usual.

1753
01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:30,720
Many Saints that have been in
the Church since the beginning

1754
01:49:30,720 --> 01:49:34,120
say that your administration
consists of nothing except

1755
01:49:34,120 --> 01:49:36,760
contrariness.
You are notorious for ignoring

1756
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:39,760
the people's will.
I do not want you to come out

1757
01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:41,240
and go to the pen.
But what?

1758
01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:44,920
But what I and all the people do
want is for you to do something,

1759
01:49:44,920 --> 01:49:48,280
save us from division and
contention within and reproach

1760
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:50,600
from without.
We appeal to the highest

1761
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:53,040
tribunal as a last resort.
But this did no good.

1762
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:56,160
Now what can we do?
Take it to the Lord, And from

1763
01:49:56,160 --> 01:49:59,560
his silence he plainly says, I
have heard the cries of the

1764
01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:01,960
daughters of Zion.
I have counted the broken hearts

1765
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:05,880
of the many women who have been
sent to the graves on sent to

1766
01:50:05,880 --> 01:50:08,720
their graves on account of
polygamy, and I will withdraw

1767
01:50:08,720 --> 01:50:11,600
for a season until my people
shall repent.

1768
01:50:12,480 --> 01:50:14,960
If you do not want to take the
responsibility of doing away

1769
01:50:14,960 --> 01:50:17,600
with polygamy upon yourself, you
can do this.

1770
01:50:18,280 --> 01:50:21,280
Order an election of all the
people, and let them say yes or

1771
01:50:21,280 --> 01:50:24,400
no without fear or hindrance,
and you will see for yourself

1772
01:50:24,400 --> 01:50:28,320
how they feel, and you will be
exonerated from from all blame.

1773
01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:31,280
Or if you do not want to do
that, why do you not go to

1774
01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:34,600
Mexico and take all those that
want to still continue to

1775
01:50:34,600 --> 01:50:38,360
practice?
And there is peace, and the 98%

1776
01:50:38,360 --> 01:50:41,640
can obey the law, and I will
promise a greater adherence to

1777
01:50:41,640 --> 01:50:43,520
the Church than you can now
conceive of.

1778
01:50:44,760 --> 01:50:50,440
Oh, so he's getting John Taylor
is getting pushback from the

1779
01:50:50,440 --> 01:50:54,240
general membership now?
Yeah, hardcore, hardcore

1780
01:50:54,240 --> 01:50:59,000
pushback.
I guess I give up now.

1781
01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:03,080
You know, we're done.
The pressure was so bad at this

1782
01:51:03,080 --> 01:51:04,960
point.
We have no idea.

1783
01:51:06,160 --> 01:51:09,360
This was never talked about when
I was a kid growing up in the

1784
01:51:09,360 --> 01:51:13,480
church, but this was such a
pivotal moment in church

1785
01:51:13,480 --> 01:51:16,760
history.
Like realistically, like it was.

1786
01:51:16,840 --> 01:51:20,520
It was probably never harder
truly for the Saints than at

1787
01:51:20,520 --> 01:51:24,600
this point.
And it was a test that I think

1788
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:29,640
and and the majority of them in
my opinion didn't pass.

1789
01:51:32,440 --> 01:51:36,080
And it's tough.
It's tough, but it blows my mind

1790
01:51:36,080 --> 01:51:40,360
how this we talk about the the
Kirtland persecution, we talk

1791
01:51:40,360 --> 01:51:43,720
about the Missouri persecution,
we talk about Joseph Smith's

1792
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:48,400
personal persecution as a young
boy growing up into adulthood.

1793
01:51:49,120 --> 01:51:52,040
And this never got talked about.
Right.

1794
01:51:54,200 --> 01:51:56,360
Well, and and I can understand
why.

1795
01:51:56,360 --> 01:51:58,640
Look, let's just call a spade a
spade.

1796
01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:04,160
It's not, it's not a flattering
picture of of a lot of Latter

1797
01:52:04,160 --> 01:52:09,560
Day Saints, right where they
are, where they're willing to

1798
01:52:09,560 --> 01:52:13,120
say, let's get rid of this,
let's get rid of this divinely

1799
01:52:13,120 --> 01:52:19,240
appointed practice and these
principles and let's let's just

1800
01:52:19,240 --> 01:52:27,920
step up and join the union.
And it, you know, it, it lies in

1801
01:52:27,920 --> 01:52:34,120
the face of that 1882 revelation
as well as the 86th revelation

1802
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:36,920
where the Lord says just hold
fast.

1803
01:52:37,160 --> 01:52:42,600
I got this in my my own time.
I have this and I get it right.

1804
01:52:42,600 --> 01:52:44,080
I don't want to be too hard on
him.

1805
01:52:44,080 --> 01:52:47,320
I would like to think that I
would have stood for for the

1806
01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:50,400
right side of things.
But you know it's a little

1807
01:52:50,400 --> 01:52:52,800
different picture when it's your
butt getting hauled off to

1808
01:52:52,800 --> 01:52:59,120
prison And so I I don't know.
I think I think this I I agree

1809
01:52:59,120 --> 01:53:00,880
with you.
I think it's a watershed moment

1810
01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:04,400
for the church because and and
Mormons in general 'cause I

1811
01:53:04,400 --> 01:53:07,680
think it showed that that you
know what with enough pressure

1812
01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:11,800
the institution is willing to
play ball with the government

1813
01:53:12,520 --> 01:53:19,360
and and and from there it's just
look, I apologize, but it damn

1814
01:53:19,360 --> 01:53:21,720
it, it's the truth.
It's the way I've seen I see it.

1815
01:53:22,360 --> 01:53:30,480
From that moment we have seen a
dilution in revelation, direct

1816
01:53:30,480 --> 01:53:34,320
revelation of thus saith the
Lord, revelation to the Church.

1817
01:53:36,760 --> 01:53:40,280
You can look at Joseph F Smith's
experience, but that's more of a

1818
01:53:40,280 --> 01:53:44,760
vision for him that we can draw
edification from.

1819
01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:50,520
There's not been a thus saith
the Lord revelation, some of

1820
01:53:50,520 --> 01:53:54,600
those spiritual experiences and
spiritual power that that we

1821
01:53:54,600 --> 01:53:57,680
hear about out of history that
becomes diluted.

1822
01:53:57,680 --> 01:54:01,080
Right after that, those things
begin to go away.

1823
01:54:01,600 --> 01:54:05,760
And it took me a long time to
get to this point.

1824
01:54:05,760 --> 01:54:07,560
I shouldn't say a long time.
Couple years.

1825
01:54:08,320 --> 01:54:10,760
I've often said they're stages
to becoming a Mormon

1826
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:13,880
fundamentalist, and one of those
stages go into hating Woodward

1827
01:54:13,880 --> 01:54:21,160
Wilford Tremendously right.
But I think the major part of

1828
01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:25,360
the blame lies at the feet of
most Mormons during that time.

1829
01:54:25,480 --> 01:54:28,520
They were done.
They were blanking for this to

1830
01:54:28,520 --> 01:54:30,440
be rescinded.
They were.

1831
01:54:30,440 --> 01:54:34,120
They were, and it was.
It's absolutely heartbreaking to

1832
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:40,440
me to read that from a member
who apparently recalls the stuff

1833
01:54:40,440 --> 01:54:43,600
that they went through in Nauvoo
and is writing something like

1834
01:54:43,600 --> 01:54:47,960
that to John Taylor.
I mean, we discuss what John

1835
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:49,520
Taylor already personally went
through.

1836
01:54:50,120 --> 01:54:52,360
Right, Yeah.
From that track down the far

1837
01:54:52,360 --> 01:54:56,920
West, the the Missouri Mormon
war, everything you know,

1838
01:54:56,920 --> 01:54:59,640
getting you know, which we and
we neglected to mention the fact

1839
01:54:59,640 --> 01:55:02,040
that he was shot, you know in
Carthage jail too.

1840
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:08,560
You know this is this guy is not
going to back down really.

1841
01:55:08,560 --> 01:55:11,880
But I can imagine he's getting
to the point personally where

1842
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:17,840
his heart's breaking truly.
And they're asking him now,

1843
01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:21,320
point blank, ask the Lord to
rescind us.

1844
01:55:22,280 --> 01:55:28,040
And we know what happens is he
does, He does ask the Lord, you

1845
01:55:28,040 --> 01:55:29,640
know, and we know what the
answer is.

1846
01:55:29,720 --> 01:55:34,960
And we're going to talk so much
about the 1886 revelation right

1847
01:55:34,960 --> 01:55:37,160
now.
Behold that thought.

1848
01:55:37,200 --> 01:55:41,680
Can you, can you mark down to
take a pause right here?

1849
01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:45,440
And then we did some editing.
I got to yeah, I think my wife

1850
01:55:45,440 --> 01:55:48,080
was knocking.
All right, we're back.

1851
01:55:48,080 --> 01:55:50,160
So we're.
Yeah.

1852
01:55:50,160 --> 01:55:55,120
We'll talk more about the 1886
revelation, as you said, yeah.

1853
01:55:55,520 --> 01:55:58,480
Getting to around that point in
time, but on John W Taylor's

1854
01:55:58,480 --> 01:56:03,800
side of things, he starts so he
his first wife is from

1855
01:56:03,800 --> 01:56:09,600
Grantsville.
His next two wives also are

1856
01:56:09,600 --> 01:56:12,160
originally from Grantsville, UT.
Do you know where that is?

1857
01:56:12,600 --> 01:56:13,360
Yeah.
Yep.

1858
01:56:14,080 --> 01:56:19,840
OK, not by Tula.
And so he starts courting or

1859
01:56:19,840 --> 01:56:21,480
trying to court and just hanging
around.

1860
01:56:21,480 --> 01:56:25,240
Really.
Samuel Wooley's family.

1861
01:56:26,240 --> 01:56:29,360
OK.
Samuel Wooley is a brother to

1862
01:56:29,360 --> 01:56:36,280
John W Wooley and around this
time John W Taylor had been

1863
01:56:36,280 --> 01:56:43,840
chosen to go to Washington DC to
protest the Edmonds law with

1864
01:56:43,840 --> 01:56:47,320
John T John T Cain and John Q
Cannon.

1865
01:56:48,200 --> 01:56:51,320
And after returning from
Washington, they went to

1866
01:56:51,320 --> 01:56:54,680
Grantsville and he went to go
tell tell Samuel Wooley about

1867
01:56:54,880 --> 01:57:01,040
this.
Samuel Wooley Taylor, who is how

1868
01:57:01,200 --> 01:57:05,400
he would be Samuel Wooley's
grandson, writes in his book

1869
01:57:05,400 --> 01:57:16,160
Family Kingdom that he told him
regarding the their interview

1870
01:57:16,160 --> 01:57:19,680
with President Cleveland.
And President Cleveland pointed

1871
01:57:19,680 --> 01:57:23,360
out that the Edmonds Act must be
enforced along with all law, but

1872
01:57:23,360 --> 01:57:26,520
promised to see that it would be
impartially administered.

1873
01:57:27,600 --> 01:57:31,200
John W Taylor said I was never
brushed off with such cordial

1874
01:57:31,200 --> 01:57:33,800
tact in my life.
It was almost a pleasure.

1875
01:57:38,360 --> 01:57:40,440
But we shouldn't blame the
president, Brother Wooley.

1876
01:57:40,440 --> 01:57:43,360
He is merely a represent
representative of public

1877
01:57:43,360 --> 01:57:45,920
opinion, and public opinion is
against us.

1878
01:57:46,400 --> 01:57:48,720
For that, we have no one to
blame but ourselves.

1879
01:57:48,800 --> 01:57:52,440
Time and time again I've told
the people that unless until I

1880
01:57:52,440 --> 01:57:55,800
suppose they're getting sick of
hearing me, all of our troubles

1881
01:57:55,800 --> 01:57:57,760
come from mixing with the
outside world.

1882
01:57:59,240 --> 01:58:02,080
I've heard you say that many
times, Brother Taylor Samuel

1883
01:58:02,080 --> 01:58:03,600
said.
But I don't believe I quite

1884
01:58:03,600 --> 01:58:06,920
understand.
John W says our people want to

1885
01:58:06,920 --> 01:58:09,920
have their cake and eat it too.
We were persecuted before the

1886
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:13,000
principle of polygamy was given
to the people, and for the same

1887
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:17,240
reason we're having troubles now
because we insist on competing

1888
01:58:17,240 --> 01:58:19,960
for wealth and political
advantage with the Gentiles.

1889
01:58:20,000 --> 01:58:23,200
If we kept to ourselves and
minded our own affairs strictly,

1890
01:58:23,640 --> 01:58:25,840
nobody would care how many wives
we'd had.

1891
01:58:28,880 --> 01:58:34,400
Driving home with his daughter
that evening, Samuel says he's

1892
01:58:34,400 --> 01:58:37,080
right in what he says.
But I'm a frit, but I'm sure the

1893
01:58:37,080 --> 01:58:38,480
Brethren don't agree with him on
it.

1894
01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:47,480
See and and I think here we can
see another departure from what

1895
01:58:47,480 --> 01:58:52,040
Joseph and and Brigham really
had in mind, which was an

1896
01:58:52,040 --> 01:58:57,680
independent society.
And they're 100% correct That.

1897
01:58:59,520 --> 01:59:03,840
Look, if you want to be like
everyone else, you better

1898
01:59:03,840 --> 01:59:06,440
prepare to have everybody else's
problems as well.

1899
01:59:07,520 --> 01:59:12,400
That's a good point.
And there was a definite feeling

1900
01:59:12,760 --> 01:59:16,720
that a lot of the Saints were
feeling like, we're sick of

1901
01:59:16,720 --> 01:59:22,800
being weird, sure, and and we're
ready to do something different.

1902
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:33,320
So in August of 1886, John W
Taylor is arrested for inciting

1903
01:59:33,320 --> 01:59:40,480
rebellion in Oxford, Idaho,
which is over by Preston and

1904
01:59:40,480 --> 01:59:43,600
assault.
I laugh when I read this.

1905
01:59:43,600 --> 01:59:47,720
The Salt Lake Tribune published
this little article.

1906
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:52,280
It reads The Rattled Brain, son
of a polygamist, mother of John

1907
01:59:52,280 --> 01:59:56,760
Taylor, Vice Regent of God and
mouthpiece of Heaven, so-called

1908
01:59:56,760 --> 02:00:01,080
Johnny Taylor, the Second, who
in his typically red hot style,

1909
02:00:01,400 --> 02:00:05,280
not only harangued the Saints
about sin on, but on 2 counts

1910
02:00:05,280 --> 02:00:08,600
exhort, exhorted them, exhorted
them to defy the law.

1911
02:00:09,440 --> 02:00:11,600
He said.
I want you people to go to the

1912
02:00:11,600 --> 02:00:14,760
polls and vote every man of you
and maintain your rights and

1913
02:00:14,760 --> 02:00:18,280
defend them, he declared in
direct defiance to Idaho law.

1914
02:00:18,280 --> 02:00:22,440
Disenfranchised.
Yeah, disenfranchising all

1915
02:00:22,440 --> 02:00:25,440
Mormons on the grounds that they
belong to a sect that fostered

1916
02:00:25,440 --> 02:00:29,640
sin and lawlessness, he said.
Send in your votes, go to the

1917
02:00:29,640 --> 02:00:33,440
polls, carry your case to the
Supreme Court of the territory

1918
02:00:33,440 --> 02:00:35,320
and the Supreme Court of the
United States.

1919
02:00:35,320 --> 02:00:39,680
What are you?
A lot of cattle fit only fit

1920
02:00:39,680 --> 02:00:43,840
only to be governed.
You are not to be controlled by

1921
02:00:43,840 --> 02:00:47,200
a few corrupt adventurers and
sycophants fight every inch of

1922
02:00:47,200 --> 02:00:50,880
ground and claim your rights.
And regarding the principle, he

1923
02:00:50,880 --> 02:00:54,800
openly defied the government.
He said you are in polygamy.

1924
02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:57,200
You that are in polygamy have
broken no law.

1925
02:00:57,200 --> 02:00:59,880
I believe in polygamy.
I am the son of a polygamist

1926
02:00:59,880 --> 02:01:03,480
mother and he declared from the
pulpit rostrum.

1927
02:01:04,640 --> 02:01:09,200
I mean to practice it too.
Dude, I like him just laying

1928
02:01:09,200 --> 02:01:14,200
down fire.
Yeah, yeah, he's so he got

1929
02:01:14,200 --> 02:01:19,480
arrested and funny enough he
after making bail or whatever,

1930
02:01:20,080 --> 02:01:26,920
he went on a trip to
Leavenworth, KS to inspect the

1931
02:01:26,920 --> 02:01:31,880
federal penitentiary there.
And he he told he got an

1932
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:34,440
audience with the warden and
said I might be staying here for

1933
02:01:34,440 --> 02:01:36,360
a while.
Can I see what's going on here?

1934
02:01:36,360 --> 02:01:37,040
That's.
Awesome.

1935
02:01:40,520 --> 02:01:43,520
And I mean, it's smart on him
because he made the he made the

1936
02:01:43,520 --> 02:01:46,320
warden laugh and he got a tour
of the place.

1937
02:01:46,320 --> 02:01:50,360
And I mean, it was kind of
serious but kind of, you know,

1938
02:01:50,360 --> 02:01:52,680
joking serious.
Do you know where it's like I

1939
02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:54,520
might end up here?
I might as well try to get an

1940
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:56,280
advantage by making a friend
here.

1941
02:01:58,320 --> 02:02:00,520
But he not.
He ended up not going to

1942
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:03,760
Leavenworth.
Lucky for him, I think most of

1943
02:02:03,760 --> 02:02:06,040
the polygamists were shipped up
to Pokello, right?

1944
02:02:08,280 --> 02:02:12,400
Some were shipped up to
Michigan, what they were calling

1945
02:02:12,400 --> 02:02:16,960
the American Siberia.
Appropriate If you've ever seen

1946
02:02:16,960 --> 02:02:21,400
Detroit, it makes sense.
Yeah, in any case, So that's

1947
02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:23,360
right.
Before September, that was

1948
02:02:23,360 --> 02:02:27,320
August 1886.
Now we're in September 1886 and

1949
02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:31,920
we're going to talk about the
1886 revelation.

1950
02:02:33,360 --> 02:02:36,520
That revelation was received in
the home of John W Woolley, the

1951
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:40,400
brother of Samuel Woolley in
Centerville, UT.

1952
02:02:41,520 --> 02:02:44,920
And this is when John Taylor
brought the question to the Lord

1953
02:02:45,920 --> 02:02:50,320
regarding of what they were able
to do with under these

1954
02:02:50,320 --> 02:02:52,320
circumstances.
And now that the context has

1955
02:02:52,320 --> 02:02:54,840
been explained, I hope those
that are listening understand

1956
02:02:54,840 --> 02:02:58,080
now this is a big deal.
And the normal church response

1957
02:02:58,080 --> 02:03:00,960
is, oh, that's not plural
marriage.

1958
02:03:00,960 --> 02:03:03,240
He's talking about the new and
everlasting covenant.

1959
02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:05,720
Of course the Lord would not
revoke the new and everlasting

1960
02:03:05,720 --> 02:03:08,440
covenant.
No, the context of what's going

1961
02:03:08,440 --> 02:03:14,800
on here is totally related to
celestial plural marriage.

1962
02:03:15,680 --> 02:03:19,000
Yeah, the the the army's not
marching in to make life tough

1963
02:03:19,000 --> 02:03:23,440
because you happen to want to
get married monogamously in a

1964
02:03:23,440 --> 02:03:29,480
sealing ceremony.
I've heard that, that excuse

1965
02:03:29,480 --> 02:03:34,720
over and over.
And quite frankly, it's it's

1966
02:03:34,720 --> 02:03:36,840
revisionist history.
I can't even call it.

1967
02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:39,120
It's not.
It's not even that.

1968
02:03:39,120 --> 02:03:41,920
It's like the worst apologetic
or cop out ever.

1969
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:44,360
Because yeah.
Why?

1970
02:03:44,360 --> 02:03:46,000
What?
OK, you're saying, of course the

1971
02:03:46,000 --> 02:03:48,080
Lord wouldn't revoke the new and
everlasting covenant.

1972
02:03:48,920 --> 02:03:52,280
Well, I would ask back, Why
would a prophet of God ever ask

1973
02:03:52,280 --> 02:03:54,400
the Lord to revoke the new and
everlasting covenant?

1974
02:03:55,920 --> 02:03:57,520
In.
General, you know no.

1975
02:03:58,320 --> 02:04:01,320
Yeah, no.
And and here's the other thing.

1976
02:04:01,600 --> 02:04:07,040
If if you're at all a student of
history and you go back and you

1977
02:04:07,040 --> 02:04:10,200
look every time they talk about
the new and everlasting covenant

1978
02:04:10,200 --> 02:04:16,280
of marriage, in that time frame
it was specifically regarding

1979
02:04:16,560 --> 02:04:21,280
plural marriage.
It's not until plural marriage

1980
02:04:21,280 --> 02:04:24,520
is done away with in the LDS
Church that that term gets

1981
02:04:25,240 --> 02:04:28,080
reused, so to speak.
Yeah, no.

1982
02:04:28,240 --> 02:04:30,720
And when?
When I'm gonna explain it to my

1983
02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:38,960
kids, you know, I will tell them
every covenant you make with the

1984
02:04:38,960 --> 02:04:42,440
priesthood is a new and an
everlasting covenant, right?

1985
02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:47,480
But the fullness of the
everlasting covenant comprehends

1986
02:04:47,520 --> 02:04:50,240
all of that, including celestial
plural marriage, which is a

1987
02:04:50,240 --> 02:04:52,440
capstone principle of it.
Yep.

1988
02:04:52,440 --> 02:04:54,720
And so those things become
synonymous.

1989
02:04:54,720 --> 02:04:57,600
In any case, John Taylor asks
the question.

1990
02:04:58,840 --> 02:05:01,280
He's at the House of John, home
of John Wooley.

1991
02:05:02,400 --> 02:05:07,960
George Buchanan and others are
there, and this is what is

1992
02:05:07,960 --> 02:05:10,720
received.
My son John, you have asked me

1993
02:05:10,720 --> 02:05:13,720
concerning the New and
everlasting covenant, and how

1994
02:05:13,720 --> 02:05:15,440
far it is binding upon my
people.

1995
02:05:15,960 --> 02:05:19,760
Thus saith the Lord, All
commandments that I give must be

1996
02:05:19,760 --> 02:05:23,800
obeyed by those calling
themselves by my name, unless

1997
02:05:23,800 --> 02:05:27,160
they are, unless they are
revoked by me or by my

1998
02:05:27,160 --> 02:05:29,560
authority.
And how can I revoke an

1999
02:05:29,560 --> 02:05:32,520
everlasting covenant?
For I, the Lord and everlasting,

2000
02:05:32,880 --> 02:05:37,800
and my everlasting covenants
cannot be abrogated, nor done

2001
02:05:37,800 --> 02:05:40,160
away with, but they they stand
forever.

2002
02:05:41,480 --> 02:05:45,080
Have I not given my word in
great plainness on the subject?

2003
02:05:46,160 --> 02:05:49,520
Yet have not great numbers of my
people been negligent in the

2004
02:05:49,520 --> 02:05:52,560
observance of my law and the
keeping of my commandments?

2005
02:05:52,600 --> 02:05:56,000
And yet have I born with them
these many years, And this

2006
02:05:56,000 --> 02:05:59,320
because of their weakness,
because of the perilous times.

2007
02:05:59,400 --> 02:06:02,960
And furthermore, it is more
pleasing to me that men should

2008
02:06:02,960 --> 02:06:05,760
use their free agency in regard
to these matters.

2009
02:06:06,480 --> 02:06:09,960
Nevertheless, I, the Lord, do
not change, and my word, and my

2010
02:06:09,960 --> 02:06:13,920
covenants, and my law do not.
And as I have heretofore said by

2011
02:06:13,920 --> 02:06:18,640
my servant Joseph, all those who
would enter into my glory must

2012
02:06:18,640 --> 02:06:24,000
and shall obey my law.
And have I not commanded men

2013
02:06:24,000 --> 02:06:28,040
that if they were Abraham's
seed, and would enter into my

2014
02:06:28,040 --> 02:06:31,400
glory, that they must do the
works of Abraham?

2015
02:06:32,040 --> 02:06:35,360
I have not revoked this law, nor
will I, for it is everlasting,

2016
02:06:36,360 --> 02:06:39,920
and those who will enter into my
glory must obey the conditions

2017
02:06:39,920 --> 02:06:42,480
thereof Even so.
Amen.

2018
02:06:44,000 --> 02:06:49,560
And that revelation was coupled
with the visitation of Joseph

2019
02:06:49,560 --> 02:06:53,280
Smith and Jesus Christ, right?
Right.

2020
02:06:55,080 --> 02:06:57,000
So.
The 8 hour meeting.

2021
02:06:57,520 --> 02:07:01,160
Yeah well before that even you
know during the that

2022
02:07:01,160 --> 02:07:04,840
conversation with a during the
night and we'll I'll skip ahead

2023
02:07:04,840 --> 02:07:09,720
and say it now there is a the
earliest account we know of

2024
02:07:09,840 --> 02:07:12,520
which is I don't know how to
classify this.

2025
02:07:13,240 --> 02:07:17,520
I think it'll be first handle 8
not second hand but it's first

2026
02:07:17,520 --> 02:07:23,800
handle 8 from a cousin of Lord
Woolley named George Woolley who

2027
02:07:23,800 --> 02:07:30,000
wrote in 19.
I don't know what year it was

2028
02:07:30,000 --> 02:07:31,320
now.
It'll come down later in my

2029
02:07:31,320 --> 02:07:34,760
notes.
He wrote at one point that

2030
02:07:36,760 --> 02:07:44,120
Lawrence C Wooley wrote him a
letter in 1891 discussing that

2031
02:07:45,280 --> 02:07:50,600
that visitation had happened and
him having the the guarding, the

2032
02:07:50,600 --> 02:07:52,240
door, that experience and all
that.

2033
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:56,880
But it did not have a mention of
the ordinations in that account.

2034
02:07:57,600 --> 02:08:02,840
OK.
But he was mentioning the other

2035
02:08:02,840 --> 02:08:05,960
pertinent things, right, which
fits with the other testimonies

2036
02:08:05,960 --> 02:08:12,040
we have from John Moon Clements
and Mariner Merrill that Joseph

2037
02:08:12,040 --> 02:08:14,800
Smith and Jesus Christ for
appearing to John Taylor from

2038
02:08:14,800 --> 02:08:19,400
time to time.
So first thing I want to touch

2039
02:08:19,400 --> 02:08:21,600
on right there is at the
beginning of their revelation.

2040
02:08:21,600 --> 02:08:24,400
It says, My son John, you have
asked me concerning the New and

2041
02:08:24,400 --> 02:08:31,520
Everlasting Covenant in DNC 132.
The Lord tells Joseph Smith,

2042
02:08:32,240 --> 02:08:35,720
Therefore prepare thy heart to
receive and obey Thine the

2043
02:08:35,720 --> 02:08:38,600
instructions which I am about to
give unto you.

2044
02:08:39,760 --> 02:08:42,720
For all those who have this law
revealed unto them must obey the

2045
02:08:42,720 --> 02:08:46,480
same.
For behold, I reveal unto you a

2046
02:08:46,480 --> 02:08:50,880
new and an everlasting covenant.
And if you abide not that

2047
02:08:50,960 --> 02:08:54,000
covenant, you're damned.
For no one can reject this

2048
02:08:54,000 --> 02:08:56,640
covenant and be permitted to
enter into My glory.

2049
02:08:57,600 --> 02:09:00,080
So that's the first thing that
comes to mind when the Lord is

2050
02:09:00,080 --> 02:09:03,280
sick on Taylor, so far as you
have asked, concerning the New

2051
02:09:03,280 --> 02:09:05,440
and everlasting covenant, that's
what the Lord had to say about

2052
02:09:05,440 --> 02:09:07,040
it the first time.
Right.

2053
02:09:08,640 --> 02:09:14,480
The second thing I'd like to
point out, let's see when people

2054
02:09:14,480 --> 02:09:24,360
bring up that that celestial
marriage is just like, it's not

2055
02:09:24,360 --> 02:09:27,080
necessarily plural.
This is kind of something that I

2056
02:09:27,080 --> 02:09:30,040
want to bring up.
This is a a letter that Joseph F

2057
02:09:30,040 --> 02:09:37,120
Smith wrote to Samuel F Atwood
March 17th, 1883.

2058
02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:40,320
He says, when I entered into
celestial marriage with my first

2059
02:09:40,320 --> 02:09:45,400
wife, I solemnly covenanted and
agreed, and so did my wife, to

2060
02:09:45,400 --> 02:09:51,600
observe and keep not a part but
all the laws, rights, etcetera,

2061
02:09:51,840 --> 02:09:54,640
appertaining unto the new and
everlasting covenant of

2062
02:09:54,640 --> 02:09:58,280
matrimony.
I understood and still do, that

2063
02:09:58,280 --> 02:10:01,680
the eternity of the marriage
covenant includes a plurality of

2064
02:10:01,680 --> 02:10:04,200
wives.
So that goes back to

2065
02:10:04,680 --> 02:10:08,240
consistently defining the
eternity of the marriage

2066
02:10:08,240 --> 02:10:11,000
covenant or the new and
everlasting covenant to not be

2067
02:10:11,200 --> 02:10:15,920
just a priesthood sealing to one
wife, but that is understood by

2068
02:10:15,920 --> 02:10:20,600
the Lord, by John Taylor and
contemporaries to be a plurality

2069
02:10:20,600 --> 02:10:22,520
of wives.
And that when you enter into

2070
02:10:22,520 --> 02:10:25,480
your first marriage, your
covenanting to live more.

2071
02:10:25,880 --> 02:10:28,960
Yep, absolutely.
And that's been my contention

2072
02:10:28,960 --> 02:10:32,800
for a little while.
Is that for folks going through

2073
02:10:32,800 --> 02:10:39,360
the the LDS temple, they haven't
been coached up about what it is

2074
02:10:39,360 --> 02:10:41,400
they're taking upon themselves.
Oh, no.

2075
02:10:41,920 --> 02:10:43,600
Well, what other ordinance is
there?

2076
02:10:43,600 --> 02:10:45,200
Because you've already gone
through your endowment.

2077
02:10:45,200 --> 02:10:46,880
So, right.
What?

2078
02:10:46,960 --> 02:10:50,400
You know you've already been
administered laws, you know,

2079
02:10:50,400 --> 02:10:53,080
every single time you went
through a degree in the temple.

2080
02:10:53,520 --> 02:11:00,840
And then what other rights are
there after you're married now?

2081
02:11:01,520 --> 02:11:07,040
So yeah, get married again.
That's the only answer, unless

2082
02:11:07,040 --> 02:11:11,240
you're one of the very few lucky
people ever to be called into

2083
02:11:11,240 --> 02:11:13,000
the church to receive your
second anointing.

2084
02:11:13,320 --> 02:11:15,480
Right.
That'd be The only exception.

2085
02:11:15,480 --> 02:11:20,200
But yeah, Yep.
In any case, now we can continue

2086
02:11:20,200 --> 02:11:24,720
to go on according to Mormon
fundamentalist tradition.

2087
02:11:27,080 --> 02:11:30,200
John Taylor instructed his
secretary L John Nuttall, who we

2088
02:11:30,200 --> 02:11:33,520
discussed earlier, to make 5
copies of the 1886 revelation,

2089
02:11:34,000 --> 02:11:36,240
to be given to men who were at
that meeting who were

2090
02:11:36,240 --> 02:11:40,040
commissioned to make sure that
plural marriage continued no

2091
02:11:40,040 --> 02:11:41,760
matter what, those being George
Q.

2092
02:11:41,760 --> 02:11:45,480
Cannon, Charles Wilkins, Samuel
Bateman, and John and Lauren

2093
02:11:45,480 --> 02:11:48,640
Wooley.
After the death of John Taylor,

2094
02:11:49,520 --> 02:11:54,680
Apostle John W Taylor finds the
original copy in his father's

2095
02:11:54,680 --> 02:11:56,360
things.
He was made the executor of his

2096
02:11:56,360 --> 02:12:02,080
estate and he made several
copies in his own handwriting.

2097
02:12:03,920 --> 02:12:07,360
And I don't, I don't know
exactly how early he began

2098
02:12:07,360 --> 02:12:12,560
showing or distributing that,
but he gave and I read

2099
02:12:12,560 --> 02:12:16,640
somewhere, I think it was Quinn.
In any case he gave the original

2100
02:12:16,640 --> 02:12:19,880
copy to his brother Frank White
Taylor for a while and he got it

2101
02:12:19,880 --> 02:12:22,800
back and it changed his hands a
few times.

2102
02:12:22,800 --> 02:12:25,360
And we'll see where we can track
that.

2103
02:12:25,880 --> 02:12:28,560
We're going to go more into that
in the second in the next part.

2104
02:12:28,560 --> 02:12:30,280
I don't think we'll have time
for today tonight.

2105
02:12:30,280 --> 02:12:33,520
But in any case he gives it to
his brother to hold on to it.

2106
02:12:33,520 --> 02:12:39,000
And I believe his brother, or
maybe it was one of the other

2107
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:41,880
guys who was holding on to it,
put it in a safety deposit box

2108
02:12:41,920 --> 02:12:46,240
to in a bank they're working in
to hold on to it for a while

2109
02:12:48,360 --> 02:12:51,360
right after that.
On the heels of that revelation,

2110
02:12:51,360 --> 02:12:59,480
John W Wooley marries a second
wife who is the mother of BH

2111
02:12:59,480 --> 02:13:00,840
Roberts.
Did you know that?

2112
02:13:01,120 --> 02:13:03,880
I didn't.
John Wooley.

2113
02:13:04,920 --> 02:13:06,040
John Wooley.
Yeah.

2114
02:13:06,040 --> 02:13:13,680
John W Wooley marries BH Roberts
Mother, which makes BH Roberts

2115
02:13:13,840 --> 02:13:17,560
John W Woolley's stepson.
And it makes Lauren C Woolley

2116
02:13:17,560 --> 02:13:21,200
and BH Roberts step brothers
interesting.

2117
02:13:21,920 --> 02:13:26,280
Yeah, let's see.
Interesting.

2118
02:13:26,280 --> 02:13:33,080
In the First Presidency Office
Journal, November 10th, 1886, it

2119
02:13:33,080 --> 02:13:36,480
is written.
This is the entry A letter was

2120
02:13:36,480 --> 02:13:40,760
received from Doctor John Cook
of Benjamin Utah County asking

2121
02:13:40,760 --> 02:13:43,600
for a copy of the revelation
given through President John

2122
02:13:43,600 --> 02:13:48,120
Taylor in October of 1886.
Brother George Reynolds was

2123
02:13:48,120 --> 02:13:51,280
requested to send him a copy.
Now, I don't know of any October

2124
02:13:51,280 --> 02:13:54,840
1886 revelation, but September
27th is pretty damn close to.

2125
02:13:55,800 --> 02:14:00,520
Yeah, yeah, 1986, Well, and that
also shows that despite it not

2126
02:14:00,520 --> 02:14:04,080
being in the Doctrine and
Covenants, this was a revelation

2127
02:14:04,080 --> 02:14:07,480
that was known to people.
It was talked about.

2128
02:14:07,480 --> 02:14:10,000
I think we're going to get into
it a lot.

2129
02:14:12,320 --> 02:14:15,960
Let's see.
So like I said around this time,

2130
02:14:15,960 --> 02:14:19,280
John WS poking around in
Grantsville and he's getting to

2131
02:14:19,280 --> 02:14:24,760
know Samuel Wooley's daughter,
Janet.

2132
02:14:25,120 --> 02:14:33,240
Janet Maria Wooley.
And he kind of shocked her but

2133
02:14:37,120 --> 02:14:39,840
he told well he talked to her
dad 1st and then I think dad

2134
02:14:39,840 --> 02:14:43,080
broke the news Samuel Wood.
And then when they had a chance

2135
02:14:43,080 --> 02:14:45,640
to talk about it he kind of let
slip.

2136
02:14:45,680 --> 02:14:49,440
At least this is the way that
Samuel Taylor tells the story is

2137
02:14:49,440 --> 02:14:53,280
he let slip that I well I wanted
to have a double wedding and

2138
02:14:53,280 --> 02:14:58,040
she's like there's another one
because he so he was planning on

2139
02:14:58,040 --> 02:15:01,000
marrying a second and third the
same time but because of the

2140
02:15:01,000 --> 02:15:05,400
persecution that he was not able
to do that.

2141
02:15:05,400 --> 02:15:07,680
But Nellie Todd?
Who?

2142
02:15:08,200 --> 02:15:11,520
Was from Grantsville but had
then moved to Salt Lake.

2143
02:15:11,520 --> 02:15:16,200
He had proposed to her already
and he marries her as his second

2144
02:15:16,200 --> 02:15:19,840
wife.
Pretty close to this time

2145
02:15:19,840 --> 02:15:28,840
period, I think in 1888 and but
let's see, but we're going to

2146
02:15:28,920 --> 02:15:30,000
we'll get to that point in a
minute.

2147
02:15:30,360 --> 02:15:37,840
On January 24th, 1887, George
Buchanan writes in his journal.

2148
02:15:39,160 --> 02:15:44,960
Is it?
See how much I can skip over

2149
02:15:44,960 --> 02:15:48,000
this?
We seem, Charles Penrose tells

2150
02:15:48,000 --> 02:15:50,760
George Buchanan.
We seem to have arrived at a

2151
02:15:50,760 --> 02:15:54,160
position where we are forced to
take definite action in regard

2152
02:15:54,160 --> 02:15:57,520
to statehood.
If we were a state, we should

2153
02:15:57,520 --> 02:16:01,080
only still be in the Union, but
as free men with the votes.

2154
02:16:01,080 --> 02:16:05,360
Wherein is power with a nation?
Can we achieve this without

2155
02:16:05,360 --> 02:16:08,040
compromising any principle of
our religion, and still with

2156
02:16:08,040 --> 02:16:11,560
good faith, and still be in good
faith to the government?

2157
02:16:11,560 --> 02:16:14,320
I think we can.
One thing appears certain.

2158
02:16:14,320 --> 02:16:17,360
Without some concession on our
part to public opinion, we

2159
02:16:17,360 --> 02:16:21,560
cannot obtain statehood.
The unanimous shouts of no, no

2160
02:16:21,840 --> 02:16:24,040
with which the question was
greeted in the House.

2161
02:16:24,040 --> 02:16:27,720
Will you ever admit Utah as a
polygamous state, are echoed in

2162
02:16:27,720 --> 02:16:30,920
the Press of the country, and
are surrounded through sounded

2163
02:16:31,080 --> 02:16:34,040
through the nation?
If the convention provided for

2164
02:16:34,040 --> 02:16:37,520
in the Scott Amendment should be
held, no practicer of plural

2165
02:16:37,520 --> 02:16:41,240
marriage would take part in the
election or the convention or

2166
02:16:41,240 --> 02:16:44,240
the ratification.
The provision required is that

2167
02:16:44,240 --> 02:16:47,200
the state constitution shall
forbid polygamy.

2168
02:16:48,080 --> 02:16:51,080
Probably the provision would be
bigamy, and polygamy shall be

2169
02:16:51,120 --> 02:16:55,280
forever bidden by law, forever
forbidden by law, or something

2170
02:16:55,280 --> 02:16:57,719
to that effect.
When the state was admitted,

2171
02:16:58,799 --> 02:17:01,639
laws would have to be passed as
agreed.

2172
02:17:01,760 --> 02:17:04,240
It would not do, I think, to
turn around and change the

2173
02:17:04,240 --> 02:17:07,840
constitution or ignore it.
But laws could be enacted

2174
02:17:07,840 --> 02:17:12,320
against bigamy and polygamy, but
not against plural or celestial

2175
02:17:12,320 --> 02:17:15,520
marriage.
We do not believe in bigamy, as

2176
02:17:15,520 --> 02:17:19,440
you have so very very clearly
established by unanswerable

2177
02:17:19,440 --> 02:17:22,959
argument and public discourses.
The same may be said in regard

2178
02:17:22,959 --> 02:17:25,440
to polygamy.
Celestial marriage is governed

2179
02:17:25,440 --> 02:17:28,600
by divine laws and is practiced
under church and not state

2180
02:17:28,600 --> 02:17:31,879
regulations.
All civilized nations enact laws

2181
02:17:31,879 --> 02:17:35,080
in regards to civil marriages.
This, we must concede, is their

2182
02:17:35,080 --> 02:17:37,639
right, so long as they do not
intrude upon religious

2183
02:17:37,639 --> 02:17:40,040
marriages.
The Catholic Church concedes

2184
02:17:40,680 --> 02:17:43,600
civil power in marriages, but
not its right to invade the

2185
02:17:43,600 --> 02:17:46,320
sacred character of
ecclesiastical marriages, which

2186
02:17:46,320 --> 02:17:49,280
are Sacramento.
We can consistently do the same.

2187
02:17:50,360 --> 02:17:53,280
Marriage law can be enacted for
the state, which shall not

2188
02:17:53,280 --> 02:17:55,400
intrude upon the marriage
ordinances of the Church.

2189
02:17:55,400 --> 02:17:58,080
Anyone violating the civil
marriage law would be guilty of

2190
02:17:58,080 --> 02:18:01,040
an offence under that law.
But it could be so that we can

2191
02:18:01,040 --> 02:18:04,400
practice celestial marriage
without violating the conditions

2192
02:18:04,400 --> 02:18:08,160
required by law to constitute a
civil marriage could be made

2193
02:18:08,160 --> 02:18:12,280
such that we need not fulfill
them in a church marriage, and

2194
02:18:12,280 --> 02:18:17,360
thus the penalties of the law
against bigamy and polygamy, and

2195
02:18:17,360 --> 02:18:19,760
not be incurred, not be
incurred.

2196
02:18:20,040 --> 02:18:24,799
This would not be Punic faith.
It would be bona fide.

2197
02:18:25,360 --> 02:18:27,799
It would render to Caesar all
things that are Caesar's, but

2198
02:18:27,799 --> 02:18:29,559
preserve to God the things that
are gods.

2199
02:18:29,559 --> 02:18:33,280
The laws of Mexico give us
precedent for this distinction.

2200
02:18:33,360 --> 02:18:36,520
Those who vote so have a
provision in the state

2201
02:18:36,520 --> 02:18:40,080
constitution forbidding pulp
bigamy and polygamy would not

2202
02:18:40,080 --> 02:18:42,520
vote against plural marriage
under the law of God.

2203
02:18:42,520 --> 02:18:46,799
Neither would the laws framed on
the marriage question interfere

2204
02:18:46,799 --> 02:18:49,760
with the holy principle of our
faith and practice.

2205
02:18:50,320 --> 02:18:54,600
So this is the beginning of the
seed of the idea that we can

2206
02:18:54,600 --> 02:18:58,920
pass some laws and kind of use
some doublespeak in regards to

2207
02:18:58,920 --> 02:19:02,760
plural marriage or polygamy and
it being different than plural

2208
02:19:02,760 --> 02:19:05,280
marriage.
And there's pushback on this

2209
02:19:05,280 --> 02:19:10,320
from leadership.
Like if we go there, they're

2210
02:19:10,320 --> 02:19:15,879
going to say you're using those
words in ways that they aren't

2211
02:19:15,879 --> 02:19:18,879
normally understood.
You know, right.

2212
02:19:19,680 --> 02:19:23,600
And that's true.
They're they're they've now

2213
02:19:23,600 --> 02:19:25,799
entered the time of political
gamesmanship.

2214
02:19:25,799 --> 02:19:31,799
Right.
And and it's, I get it.

2215
02:19:31,959 --> 02:19:35,639
But I'm like, yeah, no, no, it's
not gonna.

2216
02:19:37,080 --> 02:19:39,240
It's not gonna work that way.
No.

2217
02:19:39,240 --> 02:19:41,280
And George Buchanan's actually
against it.

2218
02:19:42,240 --> 02:19:48,440
The those that are for it at
this point are Charles Penrose

2219
02:19:48,440 --> 02:19:57,040
and Franklin S Richards and they
were trying to also hold a

2220
02:19:57,040 --> 02:20:00,800
constitutional convention around
this point as well.

2221
02:20:00,800 --> 02:20:03,200
So that's that's that's another
thing that's going on in this

2222
02:20:03,200 --> 02:20:11,480
context and on March 3rd, 1887,
the Edmonds.

2223
02:20:13,120 --> 02:20:20,880
Act is amended to be the Edmonds
Tucker Act, which let's see what

2224
02:20:20,880 --> 02:20:25,320
that does.
The ACT this Corp.

2225
02:20:25,440 --> 02:20:28,960
This incorporated both the LDS
Church and the Perpetual

2226
02:20:28,960 --> 02:20:32,800
Immigration Fund.
The ACT prohibited the practice

2227
02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:37,080
of polygamy and punished it with
a fine of from 500 to 800.

2228
02:20:37,120 --> 02:20:42,240
So it raised up the cap $300 and
imprisonment of up to five

2229
02:20:42,240 --> 02:20:44,680
years.
It dissolved the corporation of

2230
02:20:44,680 --> 02:20:50,360
the church and direct.
It directed the confiscation by

2231
02:20:50,360 --> 02:20:53,880
the federal government of all
church properties valued over a

2232
02:20:53,880 --> 02:20:58,400
limit of $50,000.
The ACT was enforced by U.S.

2233
02:20:58,400 --> 02:21:06,560
Federal Marshals and Deputies.
The ACT further it required an

2234
02:21:06,560 --> 02:21:09,680
anti polygamy oath for all
prospective voters and jurors

2235
02:21:09,680 --> 02:21:13,040
and public officials.
It annulled territorial laws,

2236
02:21:13,640 --> 02:21:16,320
allowing illegitimate children
to have an inheritance.

2237
02:21:17,560 --> 02:21:19,240
Jeez.
Battle.

2238
02:21:21,080 --> 02:21:25,600
Yeah.
It required civil marriage

2239
02:21:25,600 --> 02:21:30,000
licenses.
It abrogated the common law.

2240
02:21:30,000 --> 02:21:32,120
Spousal privilege.
Right.

2241
02:21:32,400 --> 02:21:40,680
Needed marriage license now, and
it it it abrogated the spousal

2242
02:21:40,680 --> 02:21:47,280
privilege for polygamists,
meaning that wives were not

2243
02:21:47,280 --> 02:21:50,000
exempt from being forced to
testify against their husbands

2244
02:21:50,000 --> 02:21:51,240
in court.
Right.

2245
02:21:52,800 --> 02:21:55,240
It disenfranchised women from
being able to vote.

2246
02:21:55,680 --> 02:22:00,560
It replaced local judges with
federally appointed judges.

2247
02:22:01,800 --> 02:22:06,800
And it abolished territorial the
TERR, the Office of Territorial

2248
02:22:06,800 --> 02:22:10,640
Superintendent of District
Schools, granting the Supreme

2249
02:22:10,640 --> 02:22:12,960
Court of the Territory of Utah
the right to appoint a

2250
02:22:13,040 --> 02:22:15,640
commissioner of schools.
And it called for the

2251
02:22:15,640 --> 02:22:20,000
prohibition of the use of
sectarian books and for the

2252
02:22:20,000 --> 02:22:23,000
selection of statistics of the
number of so-called gentiles and

2253
02:22:23,000 --> 02:22:25,680
Mormons attending and cheat and
teaching in the schools.

2254
02:22:26,000 --> 02:22:29,840
So basically outlawing the Book
of Mormon and Bible in schools

2255
02:22:29,840 --> 02:22:34,320
and forcing public the public
school system type of education

2256
02:22:34,320 --> 02:22:39,080
that we get now on all the kids
in the state of Utah in order to

2257
02:22:39,080 --> 02:22:44,360
brainwash them.
Yep, Yep, nastiness.

2258
02:22:45,880 --> 02:22:50,240
All right, so on the heels of
that June 3rd, 1887, the first

2259
02:22:50,240 --> 02:22:54,440
Mormon settlers, led by Charles
Oracard, arrive in the Northwest

2260
02:22:54,440 --> 02:22:58,640
Territories of Canada and
establish settlement, which is

2261
02:22:58,640 --> 02:23:02,880
now known as Cardston.
It was specifically designed to

2262
02:23:04,320 --> 02:23:07,920
shelter people seeking asylum
because they were living in

2263
02:23:07,920 --> 02:23:11,040
polygamy.
And in fact, John Taylor sent

2264
02:23:12,880 --> 02:23:17,160
Charles Card there specifically.
And his reasoning behind that

2265
02:23:17,160 --> 02:23:20,920
was he told him, I always found
justice living under the British

2266
02:23:20,920 --> 02:23:25,160
crowd.
Yeah, being from England, being

2267
02:23:25,160 --> 02:23:28,000
from the the English Empire or
Commonwealth, whatever you want

2268
02:23:28,000 --> 02:23:32,360
to call it, you know, he had
good experiences and obviously

2269
02:23:32,560 --> 02:23:34,200
America wasn't.
It wasn't doing it.

2270
02:23:34,800 --> 02:23:37,560
That's my point.
So they decided to try their

2271
02:23:37,560 --> 02:23:42,920
luck there and the first party
of 19 adults, 16 men and three

2272
02:23:42,920 --> 02:23:51,200
women out of an original 40
member company arrived there in

2273
02:23:51,200 --> 02:23:54,360
Alberta.
Of the 16 men, 15 were

2274
02:23:54,360 --> 02:24:00,360
polygamists and most of the
others of the 40 could not make

2275
02:24:00,360 --> 02:24:03,320
it because of arrests.
True.

2276
02:24:04,680 --> 02:24:11,360
On July 22nd, 1887, the 6th
Constitutional Convention of the

2277
02:24:11,560 --> 02:24:16,280
Utah Territory was called to
head off head off the effects of

2278
02:24:16,280 --> 02:24:18,280
the recently passed Edmonds
Tucker Act.

2279
02:24:18,760 --> 02:24:21,760
The proposed state constitution
contained an article that

2280
02:24:21,760 --> 02:24:25,960
declared bigamy and polygamy
being considered incompatible

2281
02:24:26,040 --> 02:24:27,680
with a republican form of
government.

2282
02:24:27,680 --> 02:24:30,840
Each of them is hereby forbidden
and declared A misdemeanor.

2283
02:24:33,040 --> 02:24:36,040
Another article provided that
the anti polygamy section could

2284
02:24:36,040 --> 02:24:39,760
not be amended without the
approval of Congress and the

2285
02:24:39,760 --> 02:24:43,320
President of the United States.
The new constitution was

2286
02:24:43,320 --> 02:24:50,840
ratified by a vote of 12,887 to
485.

2287
02:24:50,840 --> 02:24:55,240
It was not viewed as a sincere
move towards the suppression of

2288
02:24:55,240 --> 02:24:57,680
polygamy, and thus Congress
rejected the bid.

2289
02:24:59,360 --> 02:25:02,000
Sure.
So they didn't even get what

2290
02:25:02,000 --> 02:25:07,520
they wanted, even by offering to
make make laws that read that

2291
02:25:07,520 --> 02:25:11,440
way right.
June 25th, John Taylor dies

2292
02:25:11,440 --> 02:25:15,920
hiding in Caseville, Utah.
And now we're stepping into the

2293
02:25:15,920 --> 02:25:18,480
life of John W Taylor more
fully.

2294
02:25:18,640 --> 02:25:22,880
On October 7th, 1887, he gives a
talk which I found interesting.

2295
02:25:23,880 --> 02:25:26,200
I have a little book called
Collective Discourses.

2296
02:25:26,200 --> 02:25:30,720
This is this actually has
nothing to do with the overall

2297
02:25:30,720 --> 02:25:35,440
context of polygamy, but I
thought it was fun, he says.

2298
02:25:35,560 --> 02:25:38,320
We frequently hear it said
concerning the Latter Day

2299
02:25:38,320 --> 02:25:41,800
Saints, that they are led by a
one manpower.

2300
02:25:42,640 --> 02:25:44,960
It is always, it always gives me
pleasure when I hear such

2301
02:25:44,960 --> 02:25:47,760
statements, because I believe in
the sayings of the prophet.

2302
02:25:47,880 --> 02:25:52,760
When he says, surely the Lord
God will do nothing, shall save,

2303
02:25:52,760 --> 02:25:56,840
He shall reveal His secret unto
His servants, the prophets, the

2304
02:25:56,840 --> 02:25:59,920
people were led by a one
manpower in the days of Moses.

2305
02:26:00,400 --> 02:26:03,600
No, I will not.
I will not say A1 manpower.

2306
02:26:03,720 --> 02:26:07,480
I will say they were guided by
the voice of the great Jehovah,

2307
02:26:08,200 --> 02:26:11,800
the Creator of the heavens.
What do you think of that?

2308
02:26:13,720 --> 02:26:19,080
Well, sounds like he's really
pushing hard for a one man kind

2309
02:26:19,080 --> 02:26:21,160
of thing, right?
No.

2310
02:26:22,760 --> 02:26:24,520
Read it again.
I must have missed something.

2311
02:26:26,240 --> 02:26:29,480
We frequent, we frequently hear
it said concerning the Latter

2312
02:26:29,480 --> 02:26:32,240
Day Saints that they are led by
a one manpower.

2313
02:26:32,320 --> 02:26:35,120
It always gives me pleasure when
I hear such statements because I

2314
02:26:35,120 --> 02:26:39,960
believe in the saying of the the
Prophet when he said, surely the

2315
02:26:39,960 --> 02:26:43,600
Lord God will do nothing save he
shall reveal his secrets unto

2316
02:26:43,600 --> 02:26:46,200
his servants, the prophets.
OK.

2317
02:26:46,200 --> 02:26:48,520
So first got floral instead of
singular.

2318
02:26:48,640 --> 02:26:49,720
Yep, yes.
OK.

2319
02:26:50,880 --> 02:26:54,120
I got by a one man power in the
days of Moses.

2320
02:26:54,360 --> 02:26:59,560
No, I will not say A1 man power.
I will say they were guided by

2321
02:26:59,560 --> 02:27:03,120
the great arm of or the the
voice of the great Jehovah, the

2322
02:27:03,120 --> 02:27:08,320
creator of the heavens.
So I like the emphasis he's

2323
02:27:08,320 --> 02:27:11,240
putting on being LED by
revelation.

2324
02:27:12,640 --> 02:27:13,000
Yep.
Yep.

2325
02:27:13,000 --> 02:27:14,440
No, I.
See, I see there.

2326
02:27:14,440 --> 02:27:16,440
What he what?
What he was saying, OK?

2327
02:27:17,040 --> 02:27:23,840
Not by an potentially, you know,
being told to do, being told

2328
02:27:23,840 --> 02:27:28,920
what to do by one person or in
authority arbitrarily, right.

2329
02:27:29,960 --> 02:27:31,440
Yeah, He doesn't believe in that
system.

2330
02:27:31,440 --> 02:27:36,640
No cool stuff here.
November 4th, 1887 George

2331
02:27:36,640 --> 02:27:40,360
Buchanan writes in his journal
that brother Joseph F Smith, who

2332
02:27:40,360 --> 02:27:46,720
had recently been in hiding on a
mission in Hawaii, moved and he

2333
02:27:46,720 --> 02:27:49,640
had moved back to Utah.
But he moved into the House of

2334
02:27:49,760 --> 02:27:53,040
brother John W Wooley in
Centerville.

2335
02:27:55,600 --> 02:27:59,240
Joseph F Smith does, yeah.
Moves into John Wooley's house.

2336
02:28:02,480 --> 02:28:04,360
I don't know how long he stayed
and lived there, but he stayed

2337
02:28:04,360 --> 02:28:08,720
and lived there for a while.
Around that time, January 27th,

2338
02:28:08,720 --> 02:28:13,240
1888, at a Davis Stake
priesthood meeting, John Wooley,

2339
02:28:13,240 --> 02:28:18,360
who was on the High Council,
said none of us is in full

2340
02:28:18,360 --> 02:28:21,640
fellowship unless he is keeping
all of the commandments of God.

2341
02:28:25,920 --> 02:28:31,640
D Michael Quinn writes in one of
his books that quote all the

2342
02:28:31,640 --> 02:28:34,200
commandments.
UN quote was one of the codes

2343
02:28:34,560 --> 02:28:37,920
that faithful Mormons at that
point in time used for plural

2344
02:28:37,920 --> 02:28:39,520
marriage.
Sure.

2345
02:28:40,320 --> 02:28:43,560
That's actually kind of carried
down to today, right?

2346
02:28:44,080 --> 02:28:54,080
That's that's still here.
Let's see, On May 17th, 1888,

2347
02:28:54,080 --> 02:28:58,200
the Manti Temple is dedicated
and President Wilson Woodruff

2348
02:28:59,480 --> 02:29:04,440
says we are not going to stop
the practice of plural marriage

2349
02:29:04,440 --> 02:29:05,960
until the coming of the Son of
Man.

2350
02:29:07,000 --> 02:29:09,360
So that means it's not going
away.

2351
02:29:09,400 --> 02:29:13,680
Although I do find the way
that's phrased to be very

2352
02:29:13,680 --> 02:29:17,280
interesting, like we're going to
stop it when Christ returns, you

2353
02:29:17,280 --> 02:29:19,560
know, like we're not going to
stop until the coming of the Son

2354
02:29:19,560 --> 02:29:21,040
of Man.
But I know what he's.

2355
02:29:21,080 --> 02:29:22,960
I know what he means though.
Right.

2356
02:29:23,960 --> 02:29:27,160
Essentially, we're going to
practice this till the end.

2357
02:29:27,440 --> 02:29:29,600
Yep.
Yep, that's what he's that's.

2358
02:29:31,720 --> 02:29:34,200
Which is interesting because
that's what, two years before

2359
02:29:34,200 --> 02:29:37,640
they signed the manifesto.
Oh, I know dude, I know, I think

2360
02:29:37,640 --> 02:29:42,840
it's worse.
But Abraham H Cannon, who was

2361
02:29:42,840 --> 02:29:47,520
the son of George Q Cannon,
writes in his journal the At

2362
02:29:47,520 --> 02:29:50,720
that Manti Temple dedication
there was a remarkable

2363
02:29:50,720 --> 02:29:54,440
manifestations of the power of
God, and various personage

2364
02:29:54,880 --> 02:29:59,640
personages were seen and Halos
were seen about the heads of

2365
02:29:59,640 --> 02:30:02,880
several brethren, notably John W
Taylor.

2366
02:30:06,600 --> 02:30:12,400
After that, John W Taylor and
Francis Lyman and Charles were a

2367
02:30:12,400 --> 02:30:20,000
car to go as a committee to
Ottawa, Canada, essentially

2368
02:30:20,000 --> 02:30:22,760
intending to try to get some
more land for settlement and to

2369
02:30:22,760 --> 02:30:27,040
ask basically point blank, can
we win polygamy here?

2370
02:30:29,600 --> 02:30:31,880
And they were told, essentially
that while Canada needed

2371
02:30:31,880 --> 02:30:35,880
settlers, any administration
that supported polygamy would be

2372
02:30:35,880 --> 02:30:41,040
committing suicide.
But after this a confidential

2373
02:30:41,040 --> 02:30:47,200
conversation, or after this
confidential conversation, the

2374
02:30:47,200 --> 02:30:53,520
three of those guys drafted a
letter which wrote or said all

2375
02:30:53,520 --> 02:30:56,960
the practice of plural marriage
among the Latter Day Saints in

2376
02:30:56,960 --> 02:30:59,360
the United States.
So much talked about, and so

2377
02:30:59,360 --> 02:31:03,560
greatly exaggerated, has never
yet induced one individual, not

2378
02:31:03,560 --> 02:31:05,480
of our faith, to undertake the
practice of it.

2379
02:31:06,120 --> 02:31:12,280
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Thus, it has never been a menace

2380
02:31:12,280 --> 02:31:15,440
to the United States and will
not be to the Dominion of

2381
02:31:15,440 --> 02:31:15,960
Canada.
That's.

2382
02:31:17,320 --> 02:31:19,920
Awesome.
Basically saying, look, this

2383
02:31:19,920 --> 02:31:22,600
isn't for everybody.
You shouldn't expect everyone to

2384
02:31:22,600 --> 02:31:27,640
be lining up for this.
They were essentially allowed

2385
02:31:27,640 --> 02:31:32,320
to, however, have like they
said, we don't care if you have

2386
02:31:32,320 --> 02:31:34,520
a wife here and you have other
wives in the United States, but

2387
02:31:34,520 --> 02:31:38,440
don't, don't bring more than one
up here, you know?

2388
02:31:39,160 --> 02:31:42,080
Got you, yeah.
Add some men and the church

2389
02:31:42,080 --> 02:31:44,560
will, The church will tell you
this and they'll they'll mislead

2390
02:31:44,560 --> 02:31:49,560
the statistics with the in the
in their apologetics by saying

2391
02:31:50,560 --> 02:31:56,080
statistically this is the amount
of of plural families in Canada

2392
02:31:56,080 --> 02:31:58,520
at this time.
This shows you that it was not a

2393
02:31:58,520 --> 02:32:02,280
polygamous colony, but it does
not tell you the percentage of

2394
02:32:02,280 --> 02:32:07,600
people in the colony that had
one wife that also had other

2395
02:32:07,600 --> 02:32:10,120
wives in the United States or
Mexico at the same time.

2396
02:32:11,080 --> 02:32:15,880
Yeah, gotcha.
Yeah, the numbers there a little

2397
02:32:15,880 --> 02:32:19,320
bit.
Yeah, while up there John W

2398
02:32:19,320 --> 02:32:25,280
Taylor prophesied the spot for
the Cardston Temple and after

2399
02:32:25,280 --> 02:32:28,000
returning from that trip it
looks like he he married a

2400
02:32:28,000 --> 02:32:32,120
second wife September 25th in
Washington state.

2401
02:32:34,560 --> 02:32:38,160
Now this is interesting.
December 20th, 1888, Wilford

2402
02:32:38,160 --> 02:32:40,600
Woodruff, who is still acting as
president of the 12:00, they

2403
02:32:40,600 --> 02:32:43,920
have not reconvened.
The First Presidency holds a

2404
02:32:43,920 --> 02:32:49,680
meeting and he asks the 12 to
consider a document said to have

2405
02:32:49,680 --> 02:32:53,120
come from Washington, DC, But no
name or names were given to it

2406
02:32:53,640 --> 02:32:56,320
which was addressed to the
Latter Day Saints in Utah and

2407
02:32:56,320 --> 02:32:59,440
throughout the United States,
asking them to conform their

2408
02:32:59,440 --> 02:33:03,320
lives to the laws of Congress.
The document which was supposed

2409
02:33:03,320 --> 02:33:06,640
to be signed by all church
leaders when published after

2410
02:33:06,640 --> 02:33:10,080
having his secretary read the
1888 document twice to the

2411
02:33:10,080 --> 02:33:13,920
quorum, President Woodruff said
it is of the greatest importance

2412
02:33:13,920 --> 02:33:16,680
that we decide by the Spirit
what decision to make regarding

2413
02:33:16,680 --> 02:33:20,680
the same and make no comment on
the document itself.

2414
02:33:21,640 --> 02:33:24,240
And he asked the rest of the
apostles to express themselves

2415
02:33:24,240 --> 02:33:28,320
from youngest to eldest.
George Cucannon, George Teasdale

2416
02:33:28,320 --> 02:33:32,200
and John W Taylor were absent
from the meeting, but all the

2417
02:33:32,200 --> 02:33:37,160
other apostles rejected the
document, and John and John

2418
02:33:37,160 --> 02:33:41,000
Henry Smith, Francis M Lyman,
Moses Thatcher and Joseph S

2419
02:33:41,000 --> 02:33:43,640
Smith said that they could not
approve of such a document

2420
02:33:43,640 --> 02:33:46,280
without the word of the Lord
through Wilford Woodruff.

2421
02:33:47,240 --> 02:33:50,880
And after this overwhelming
repudiation, Wilford Woodruff

2422
02:33:51,080 --> 02:33:55,040
said in the meeting, had we
yielded to that document, every

2423
02:33:55,040 --> 02:33:57,880
man of us would have been under
the condemnation of God.

2424
02:33:58,040 --> 02:34:00,840
The Lord will never give a
revelation to abandon plural

2425
02:34:00,840 --> 02:34:02,920
marriage.
Wow.

2426
02:34:04,040 --> 02:34:07,800
So they had a manifesto type
document presented given to

2427
02:34:07,800 --> 02:34:12,240
them, drafted up by the by the
government in December of 1888

2428
02:34:13,280 --> 02:34:17,920
and a full forum. 9 apostles
rejected it.

2429
02:34:19,520 --> 02:34:20,480
Wow.
I should say.

2430
02:34:21,000 --> 02:34:22,840
Woodruff presented at the other
eight.

2431
02:34:23,880 --> 02:34:26,680
Do we know, Do we know why the
three weren't there?

2432
02:34:28,360 --> 02:34:31,960
I bet you George Teasdale was in
Mexico, and I bet you George

2433
02:34:31,960 --> 02:34:34,440
Buchanan and John Taylor were in
Canada.

2434
02:34:34,640 --> 02:34:45,640
OK, John, guaranteed.
Let's see, in September of 1889,

2435
02:34:46,280 --> 02:34:49,000
it's getting it's still pretty
hot and heated in Utah and

2436
02:34:49,000 --> 02:34:53,920
Wilford Woodruff basically tells
George Q Cannon anyone

2437
02:34:53,920 --> 02:34:56,520
practicing polygamy needs to be
doing it down to Mexico.

2438
02:34:57,600 --> 02:35:02,120
But some people were able to do
it in Utah, and that actually

2439
02:35:02,120 --> 02:35:06,680
caused some problems.
For example, on September 22nd

2440
02:35:06,960 --> 02:35:13,360
1889, Matthias Cowley married
his second wife, which is I

2441
02:35:13,360 --> 02:35:18,120
would like to point out with is
within a six month time frame

2442
02:35:18,120 --> 02:35:26,440
that the Manifesto itself points
out between June of 1889 and the

2443
02:35:26,440 --> 02:35:30,440
last six months of 1889 and up
to the September of 1890.

2444
02:35:30,760 --> 02:35:33,840
Wilford Woodruff states in the
Manifesto that no plural

2445
02:35:33,840 --> 02:35:39,440
marriages have been done from
June of 1889, But Matthias

2446
02:35:39,440 --> 02:35:47,640
Cowley is marrying his second
wife September 22nd, 1889, which

2447
02:35:47,640 --> 02:35:55,200
makes Matthias Cowley the de
facto for the he makes him the

2448
02:35:55,200 --> 02:35:58,640
first de facto breaker of the
manifesto from among the Quorum

2449
02:35:58,640 --> 02:36:04,640
of the 12 Apostles.
Yep, he was sealed to his second

2450
02:36:04,640 --> 02:36:08,960
wife by Daniel H Wells, the same
leader of the the novel Legion

2451
02:36:08,960 --> 02:36:15,120
that we talked about in the Utah
War and in the Endowment House.

2452
02:36:15,640 --> 02:36:19,960
And at the same time there was
another marriage done, another

2453
02:36:19,960 --> 02:36:24,480
plural marriage done for Hans
and Jesperson by Apostle

2454
02:36:24,480 --> 02:36:30,040
Franklin D Richards, which the
discovery of which got Wolford

2455
02:36:30,120 --> 02:36:33,840
Wolford Woodruff to tear down
the Endowment House to cover the

2456
02:36:34,480 --> 02:36:38,920
the tracks and appease the the
government that way.

2457
02:36:38,920 --> 02:36:45,520
Any any mentions that in the
Manifesto itself, October 2nd

2458
02:36:45,520 --> 02:36:49,080
1889, Wilford Woodruff calls the
meeting of the First Presidency

2459
02:36:49,080 --> 02:36:57,000
and Apostles to announce the
policy, I believe of a these

2460
02:36:57,000 --> 02:36:58,840
things need to be done in Mexico
and not up here.

2461
02:36:59,200 --> 02:37:02,080
And he explained that it was
necessary due to the publicity

2462
02:37:02,080 --> 02:37:04,840
of the recent arrest of HA Hans
Jesperson.

2463
02:37:04,840 --> 02:37:10,200
So I guess he was arrested.
George Buchanan.

2464
02:37:12,640 --> 02:37:14,160
Sorry, hold on.
No, you're good.

2465
02:37:15,360 --> 02:37:19,200
Lorenzo Snow in this meeting
suggests that if this was

2466
02:37:19,200 --> 02:37:21,720
President Woodruff's new policy,
that there should be a public

2467
02:37:21,720 --> 02:37:24,800
announcement of it.
But Snow's motion was opposed by

2468
02:37:24,800 --> 02:37:30,520
Councillor Joseph F Smith and by
Francis M Lyman and John W

2469
02:37:30,520 --> 02:37:33,880
Taylor.
In view of that situation then

2470
02:37:33,880 --> 02:37:36,840
and thereafter, John W Taylor's
commentary at this meeting was

2471
02:37:36,840 --> 02:37:37,880
prophetic.
The reason?

2472
02:37:38,040 --> 02:37:41,000
And he explains why he rejected
it.

2473
02:37:41,000 --> 02:37:45,200
John W Taylor says there is
something that I never expected

2474
02:37:45,280 --> 02:37:49,720
to be discussed.
Sorry, this is something I am

2475
02:37:50,000 --> 02:37:52,400
never expected to hear discussed
in this light.

2476
02:37:52,440 --> 02:37:55,760
I have understood it was policy
for the brethren to take wives

2477
02:37:55,760 --> 02:37:58,920
outside the United States.
You cannot publish that.

2478
02:38:00,720 --> 02:38:03,560
You will not give your consent
that plural marriages shall be

2479
02:38:03,760 --> 02:38:07,800
consummated and at the same time
have the marriages consummated

2480
02:38:07,800 --> 02:38:11,200
in Canada or Mexico.
I think it will be the best.

2481
02:38:11,760 --> 02:38:16,400
It will be best.
Oh, it will be best policy to

2482
02:38:16,400 --> 02:38:19,440
let the matter rest without
saying anything about it,

2483
02:38:21,360 --> 02:38:24,360
because if plural marriages are
solemnized, it will soon be

2484
02:38:24,360 --> 02:38:27,160
known and we will be considered
insincere.

2485
02:38:27,920 --> 02:38:31,080
I feel that faith that the Lord
will bring something about for

2486
02:38:31,080 --> 02:38:34,480
our deliverance.
If we publish anything on this

2487
02:38:34,480 --> 02:38:38,560
matter, it will be impossible
for us or the elders to fully

2488
02:38:38,560 --> 02:38:42,080
explain to the Saints, and much
confusion will ensue.

2489
02:38:42,720 --> 02:38:45,600
Boy, he was 100% correct.
He was.

2490
02:38:45,760 --> 02:38:49,160
He was of a mind of just not
publish anything, just.

2491
02:38:49,720 --> 02:38:52,960
Just all say a word.
Right, which would have been a

2492
02:38:52,960 --> 02:38:55,520
smart thing to do if you were
trying to fly under the radar.

2493
02:38:56,560 --> 02:39:00,600
Absolutely.
In the meantime, around this

2494
02:39:00,600 --> 02:39:03,400
time, George Q Cannon's still
going up the trips to Canada and

2495
02:39:03,400 --> 02:39:08,760
he's telling them, you know,
stuff like, we can't talk about

2496
02:39:08,760 --> 02:39:12,440
plugging me down in the United
States, but I've come up here to

2497
02:39:12,440 --> 02:39:18,960
see if you guys are keeping the
commandments, and then you know

2498
02:39:19,080 --> 02:39:24,560
what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, he's he's like, now

2499
02:39:24,560 --> 02:39:28,720
I know this policy, but just
wanted to see how you guys were

2500
02:39:28,720 --> 02:39:30,360
doing.
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

2501
02:39:34,040 --> 02:39:39,520
Let's see now.
Same stuff's going on.

2502
02:39:39,520 --> 02:39:42,800
It's just never ending.
It's like, this is hard.

2503
02:39:42,800 --> 02:39:46,920
This is the hard part for me.
This, this is November 24th,

2504
02:39:46,920 --> 02:39:48,680
1889.
This is the day that Wilford

2505
02:39:48,680 --> 02:39:50,160
Woodruff receives A revelation,
right?

2506
02:39:52,600 --> 02:39:54,840
Actually, yeah.
So they were having a meeting at

2507
02:39:54,840 --> 02:39:57,960
the the Gardo House where the
president of the church lived,

2508
02:39:59,160 --> 02:40:05,920
and President Woodruff, John W
Young, Legrand Young, George

2509
02:40:05,960 --> 02:40:08,840
Buchanan and others were there.
And George Buchanan writes in

2510
02:40:08,840 --> 02:40:13,640
his journal.
But the question came up as

2511
02:40:13,640 --> 02:40:15,960
what?
As what to do and what should be

2512
02:40:15,960 --> 02:40:18,840
said concerning about the Cessa,
the cessation of plural

2513
02:40:18,840 --> 02:40:21,720
marriages?
Whatever is said, I hope will be

2514
02:40:21,720 --> 02:40:26,240
said by the word of the Lord.
I want President Woodruff if I

2515
02:40:26,240 --> 02:40:30,360
can have my feelings gratified,
and if anything is to be said on

2516
02:40:30,360 --> 02:40:33,880
the subject in this direction,
to be able to say thus saith the

2517
02:40:33,880 --> 02:40:35,400
Lord.
So they have a meeting, talk

2518
02:40:35,640 --> 02:40:39,120
about this.
George Buchanan leaves early for

2519
02:40:39,120 --> 02:40:42,120
whatever reason, goes home,
writes that in his journal says

2520
02:40:42,120 --> 02:40:48,160
we've talked about this.
I just hope, I just hope we do

2521
02:40:48,160 --> 02:40:50,240
say something like please will
the Lord talk to us.

2522
02:40:50,280 --> 02:40:53,520
And it happens right.
And it is thus saith the Lord

2523
02:40:53,520 --> 02:40:59,160
and he was not there for it.
But later on Wilford Woodruff

2524
02:40:59,160 --> 02:41:02,200
tells other you know, and shows
it to the quorum and everything

2525
02:41:02,200 --> 02:41:06,600
you know.
This is well, this is taken from

2526
02:41:06,600 --> 02:41:11,160
Wilford Woodruff's journal.
Later that same day that that I

2527
02:41:11,160 --> 02:41:15,000
just read from George Buchanan's
journal, I attended a meeting

2528
02:41:15,000 --> 02:41:16,800
with the lawyers at the Gardo
House.

2529
02:41:16,800 --> 02:41:20,000
They wanted me to make some
concession to the court upon

2530
02:41:20,000 --> 02:41:23,880
polygamy and other points.
And I spent several hours alone,

2531
02:41:25,000 --> 02:41:27,360
and inquired the Lord, and
received the following

2532
02:41:27,360 --> 02:41:30,640
revelation.
Thus saith Lord of my servant

2533
02:41:30,680 --> 02:41:34,520
Wilford, I, The Lord have heard
thy prayers and thy request, and

2534
02:41:34,520 --> 02:41:36,720
will answer thee by the voice of
my spirit.

2535
02:41:37,400 --> 02:41:41,040
Thus saith the Lord unto My
servants, the presidency of my

2536
02:41:41,040 --> 02:41:43,440
church, who hold the keys of the
Kingdom of God on this earth.

2537
02:41:43,520 --> 02:41:47,760
I, the Lord, hold the testimony
of the courts in your midst, and

2538
02:41:47,760 --> 02:41:50,680
the destiny of this nation, and
all other nations on the earth

2539
02:41:50,680 --> 02:41:54,160
in mine own hands.
And all that I have revealed and

2540
02:41:54,160 --> 02:41:57,280
promised and decreed concerning
the generation in which you live

2541
02:41:57,280 --> 02:42:00,560
shall come to pass, and no power
shall stay my hand.

2542
02:42:01,360 --> 02:42:04,080
Let not My servants who are
called to the presidency of my

2543
02:42:04,080 --> 02:42:08,840
Church deny My word or My law,
which concerns the salvation of

2544
02:42:08,840 --> 02:42:12,040
the children of men.
Let them pray for the Holy

2545
02:42:12,040 --> 02:42:15,120
Spirit, and which shall be given
them to guide them in their

2546
02:42:15,120 --> 02:42:17,920
acts.
Place not yourselves in jeopardy

2547
02:42:18,000 --> 02:42:21,720
to your enemies by promise your
enemies seek your destruction

2548
02:42:21,800 --> 02:42:23,400
and the destruction of My
people.

2549
02:42:24,400 --> 02:42:27,680
If the Saints will hearken unto
my voice and the counsel of My

2550
02:42:27,680 --> 02:42:29,560
servants, the wicked shall not
prevail.

2551
02:42:30,360 --> 02:42:33,400
Let My servants, who officiate
as Your counselors before the

2552
02:42:33,400 --> 02:42:38,200
courts, make their pleadings as
they are moved upon by the by

2553
02:42:38,200 --> 02:42:41,160
the Holy Spirit, without any
further pledges from the

2554
02:42:41,160 --> 02:42:46,640
priesthood.
So the Lord tells them, don't

2555
02:42:47,840 --> 02:42:49,640
tell them that we will stop
this.

2556
02:42:50,200 --> 02:42:52,920
Right.
Yep, 100% by revelation.

2557
02:42:52,920 --> 02:42:55,960
Thus saith the Lord, just as
George Q Cannon was hoping for.

2558
02:42:58,600 --> 02:43:01,000
And it's not like this is the
first time it's come up.

2559
02:43:01,000 --> 02:43:04,160
You know, we had that meeting a
year previous to this point in

2560
02:43:04,160 --> 02:43:06,840
December of 1888, where it's
already being discussed and the

2561
02:43:06,840 --> 02:43:08,400
whole Quorum of the 12 shot it
down.

2562
02:43:09,240 --> 02:43:11,160
Well, and and here's the other
thing, right?

2563
02:43:11,160 --> 02:43:15,440
I I look at this, you still have
government lawyers wanting to

2564
02:43:15,440 --> 02:43:18,920
have a chat with the church's
attorneys, right?

2565
02:43:20,000 --> 02:43:24,200
And it it feels I I have nothing
to back this up.

2566
02:43:24,200 --> 02:43:26,920
Just the feel if the
government's sending out

2567
02:43:26,920 --> 02:43:30,480
attorneys to talk about this the
government's wearing down.

2568
02:43:31,760 --> 02:43:37,720
They want this to stop and and
and it feels like if they could

2569
02:43:37,720 --> 02:43:41,440
have just held on for for
another year maybe the

2570
02:43:41,440 --> 02:43:44,520
government would have wore down.
If there's one thing we can say

2571
02:43:44,520 --> 02:43:47,360
for our government, it's not
real good at following through.

2572
02:43:48,320 --> 02:43:53,000
Honestly, I think I don't know.
I don't know Hindsight's 2020

2573
02:43:53,000 --> 02:43:56,360
and all that.
And, and maybe not because it

2574
02:43:56,360 --> 02:43:59,840
was a long time ago from where
we're standing now, but if I had

2575
02:43:59,840 --> 02:44:02,520
to venture a guess of what could
have happened or would have

2576
02:44:02,520 --> 02:44:07,240
happened, I imagine something
similar, maybe on a bigger scale

2577
02:44:07,640 --> 02:44:10,680
of what happened in Short Creek
in 1953 would have happened in

2578
02:44:10,680 --> 02:44:15,600
Utah.
But the backlash, yeah, against

2579
02:44:15,600 --> 02:44:21,960
the federal government would
have caused a severe amount of

2580
02:44:21,960 --> 02:44:23,720
freedom afterwards.
Like the government would have

2581
02:44:23,720 --> 02:44:28,080
left them alone for a long time.
People, people, forget about

2582
02:44:28,080 --> 02:44:32,160
those Short Creek raids.
It wasn't the Mormons bitching

2583
02:44:32,160 --> 02:44:34,920
about what happened in Short
Creek, it was the rest of the

2584
02:44:34,920 --> 02:44:37,560
country.
This was published in either

2585
02:44:37,560 --> 02:44:40,600
Time or Life magazine.
I can't remember which one, but

2586
02:44:40,600 --> 02:44:44,560
you had World War 2 veterans
saying things like, why did we

2587
02:44:44,560 --> 02:44:48,920
fight Germany if they could come
in and disrupt you in your own

2588
02:44:48,920 --> 02:44:51,760
home and you're not hurting
anybody.

2589
02:44:52,000 --> 02:44:57,680
What the hell do we fight this
thing for sure, And and I, I do

2590
02:44:57,680 --> 02:45:00,680
believe, just like you do, one
of two things would have

2591
02:45:00,680 --> 02:45:02,080
happened.
Either the government would have

2592
02:45:02,080 --> 02:45:05,280
lost interest, right.
They would have just said, OK,

2593
02:45:05,280 --> 02:45:08,080
you know what this is?
This is not going like we'd

2594
02:45:08,080 --> 02:45:09,640
hoped.
Leave them alone or like you

2595
02:45:09,640 --> 02:45:13,520
said, a Short Creek kind of
incident which would have caused

2596
02:45:13,520 --> 02:45:15,680
major backlash.
Yeah.

2597
02:45:15,760 --> 02:45:18,680
And then the backing loss, you
know, and and more liberty.

2598
02:45:20,480 --> 02:45:24,720
So the 1889 revelation can not
only be verified by looking into

2599
02:45:24,720 --> 02:45:27,760
Wilford Woodruff's journal, but
George Q Cannon writes about it

2600
02:45:27,760 --> 02:45:30,880
afterwards because he goes back
the next day and he's he writes

2601
02:45:30,880 --> 02:45:32,720
in his journal that President
Woodruff shows him the

2602
02:45:32,720 --> 02:45:36,600
revelation.
And in L John Nuttall's journal

2603
02:45:36,880 --> 02:45:41,640
he writes about Wolford Woodruff
receiving that revelation.

2604
02:45:42,120 --> 02:45:46,920
And then a few days later,
George Q Cannon's son Abraham H

2605
02:45:46,920 --> 02:45:52,360
Cannon writes in his journal.
Then during our meeting, the

2606
02:45:52,360 --> 02:45:55,680
meeting of the Quorum of the 12
Right during our meeting a forum

2607
02:45:55,680 --> 02:46:00,240
was a revelation was read which
President Woodruff received.

2608
02:46:01,880 --> 02:46:05,880
Propositions have been made for
the Church to make some

2609
02:46:05,880 --> 02:46:09,240
concessions to the courts in
regards to this principle.

2610
02:46:09,720 --> 02:46:13,280
Both of President Woodruff's
counselors refused to advise him

2611
02:46:13,360 --> 02:46:16,680
as to the course he should
pursue, and he therefore laid

2612
02:46:16,680 --> 02:46:19,640
the matter before the Lord.
The answer came back when we

2613
02:46:19,840 --> 02:46:22,400
began strong.
The word of the Lord was for us

2614
02:46:22,720 --> 02:46:25,880
not to yield 1 particle of that
which He had revealed and

2615
02:46:25,880 --> 02:46:30,360
established He had done, and
would continue to care for His

2616
02:46:30,360 --> 02:46:33,800
work and those of the Saints who
were faithful, and we have No

2617
02:46:33,800 --> 02:46:37,400
Fear of our enemies.
When we were in the line of our

2618
02:46:37,400 --> 02:46:41,760
duty, we are promised
redemption, and if we will trust

2619
02:46:41,760 --> 02:46:44,800
in God and not in the arm of
flesh, we were admonished to

2620
02:46:44,800 --> 02:46:47,480
read and study the Word of God,
and to pray often.

2621
02:46:48,320 --> 02:46:50,760
And the whole revelation was
filled with words of the

2622
02:46:50,760 --> 02:46:52,320
greatest encouragement and
comfort.

2623
02:46:52,680 --> 02:46:55,320
And my heart was filled with joy
and peace during the entire

2624
02:46:55,320 --> 02:46:57,760
reading.
It sets all doubts at rest

2625
02:46:57,760 --> 02:47:02,360
concerning the course to pursue
so.

2626
02:47:03,160 --> 02:47:05,880
So they had another revelation
where the Lord said stay the

2627
02:47:05,880 --> 02:47:09,320
course.
They they had a full blown

2628
02:47:09,320 --> 02:47:14,680
revelation and the support and
acknowledgement of the 12 and it

2629
02:47:14,680 --> 02:47:19,240
was read to the 12.
There wasn't just, it wasn't

2630
02:47:19,240 --> 02:47:22,640
just Wilford Woodruff and George
Buchanan who knew about it now.

2631
02:47:22,680 --> 02:47:25,360
It was everyone you know in the
leadership.

2632
02:47:26,840 --> 02:47:30,440
In any case, around this time,
March 30th, 1890, in the Forum

2633
02:47:30,440 --> 02:47:34,240
of the 12 meeting, John W Taylor
says that he had seen the Son of

2634
02:47:34,240 --> 02:47:37,520
God in a vision and that he had
seen the Prophet Joseph Smith

2635
02:47:37,640 --> 02:47:41,560
and Brigham Young and his own
father since his death.

2636
02:47:42,200 --> 02:47:45,440
And so I found that interesting,
right?

2637
02:47:45,440 --> 02:47:54,960
Had to include that an April
conference of 1890, George

2638
02:47:54,960 --> 02:47:58,760
Buchanan writes some commentary
on a talk that John W Taylor

2639
02:47:58,760 --> 02:48:02,280
gave.
Brother John W Taylor's remarks

2640
02:48:02,280 --> 02:48:07,240
were of a peculiar character.
He confessed that his mind had

2641
02:48:07,240 --> 02:48:10,520
been occupied with temporal
things for a long time past, and

2642
02:48:10,520 --> 02:48:12,840
that he did not have the spirit
of his calling when he permitted

2643
02:48:12,840 --> 02:48:14,760
himself to be engrossed in those
affairs.

2644
02:48:15,760 --> 02:48:18,160
Brother Moses.
Brother Moses Thatcher in his

2645
02:48:18,160 --> 02:48:21,760
remarks conveyed the idea that
it was quite proper for men to

2646
02:48:21,760 --> 02:48:24,760
engage in temporal things.
He cited the instance of

2647
02:48:24,760 --> 02:48:28,680
President Young's encouraging
the Brethren to engage in Banks

2648
02:48:28,680 --> 02:48:32,440
and ZCMI, and also quoted
Abraham as having been a wealthy

2649
02:48:32,440 --> 02:48:39,200
man, and also Solomon and David.
While speaking, he said that if

2650
02:48:39,200 --> 02:48:41,600
he was engaged in any.
So he's talking about Moses

2651
02:48:41,600 --> 02:48:43,640
Thatcher now, right?
Not not John W, but this is

2652
02:48:43,640 --> 02:48:46,680
funny.
He said that if he was engaged

2653
02:48:46,680 --> 02:48:49,240
in any business that the
presidency did not approve of,

2654
02:48:49,280 --> 02:48:53,160
he would be glad to be sent on a
mission or be counseled to throw

2655
02:48:53,160 --> 02:48:56,960
such business aside.
While making these remarks,

2656
02:48:56,960 --> 02:48:59,600
President Woodruff leaned over
to me and said if Brother

2657
02:48:59,600 --> 02:49:02,400
Thatcher had felt this way 3
weeks ago would have saved me

2658
02:49:02,400 --> 02:49:06,320
great many sorrowful, sorrowful
feelings for I have been trying

2659
02:49:06,320 --> 02:49:09,080
to get him to do as I wanted for
some time past.

2660
02:49:09,400 --> 02:49:10,480
That's.
Hilarious.

2661
02:49:13,520 --> 02:49:17,080
Anyways, the same account of a
or different account, same

2662
02:49:17,120 --> 02:49:21,560
conference George Q Cannon had
written above, right?

2663
02:49:21,560 --> 02:49:25,840
Or that John W made peculiar
remarks about not having the

2664
02:49:25,840 --> 02:49:30,080
spirit of God when focusing on
temporal business stuff.

2665
02:49:31,280 --> 02:49:34,320
That was a bit of a gloss
because Abraham H Cannon, his

2666
02:49:34,320 --> 02:49:37,000
son, records a bit differently.
Right.

2667
02:49:37,800 --> 02:49:42,520
And he says this is Abraham
Cannon writing in his journal at

2668
02:49:42,520 --> 02:49:46,160
the I went to the meeting.
John W Taylor was the first

2669
02:49:46,160 --> 02:49:49,720
speaker.
He felt that our failure to

2670
02:49:49,720 --> 02:49:53,160
receive revelation from God is
due to the fact that we are too

2671
02:49:53,160 --> 02:49:57,360
much engaged with the affairs of
this world and our efforts to

2672
02:49:57,360 --> 02:50:04,080
accumulate wealth and instead of
trying to acquire eternal

2673
02:50:04,080 --> 02:50:07,040
riches.
You really are starting to see a

2674
02:50:07,040 --> 02:50:11,440
shift now right where where some
of these guys are starting to

2675
02:50:11,440 --> 02:50:15,040
say, you know if if we're
apostles we we should expect to

2676
02:50:15,040 --> 02:50:20,440
be wealthy somewhat.
There seems to be almost a

2677
02:50:20,440 --> 02:50:24,480
creeping in of of like
prosperity gospel here a little

2678
02:50:24,480 --> 02:50:28,520
bit.
Well, there may be some of that,

2679
02:50:28,520 --> 02:50:33,600
but it's it's also
understandable to a point where

2680
02:50:33,840 --> 02:50:39,880
you need to obviously really be
making enough to make ends meet

2681
02:50:39,880 --> 02:50:43,800
for more than one family when
you're trying to live lives that

2682
02:50:43,800 --> 02:50:45,520
has more than one family in it,
you.

2683
02:50:45,640 --> 02:50:47,480
Know.
No, that's that's a good point

2684
02:50:47,480 --> 02:50:49,400
too.
And that's that's tough.

2685
02:50:49,400 --> 02:50:54,280
But I I know what you mean.
And I wouldn't ever attach a

2686
02:50:58,160 --> 02:51:03,600
100% guarantee over award of
financial or temporal prosperity

2687
02:51:03,600 --> 02:51:06,280
if you.
Right this way.

2688
02:51:07,960 --> 02:51:11,120
But at the same time, you know
in Moses, Thatcher isn't wrong.

2689
02:51:11,560 --> 02:51:16,080
Certain men were blessed of the
Lord to have riches, and Jacob

2690
02:51:16,080 --> 02:51:18,720
in the Book of Mormon tells you
that it's a good thing to have

2691
02:51:18,720 --> 02:51:21,560
riches if you can not be tempted
by them.

2692
02:51:23,920 --> 02:51:25,080
And that's the problem, isn't
it?

2693
02:51:25,760 --> 02:51:28,360
That is the problem.
That is the problem.

2694
02:51:30,080 --> 02:51:33,520
So that's right.
I've ever had in my life.

2695
02:51:35,760 --> 02:51:37,760
Were you going to say something?
No, no.

2696
02:51:37,760 --> 02:51:40,640
I was just going to say, OK, so,
so they're kind of having this

2697
02:51:40,640 --> 02:51:41,800
debate too.
When?

2698
02:51:41,800 --> 02:51:46,120
When do we get to the point
where Wilford signs that

2699
02:51:46,120 --> 02:51:48,680
manifesto?
About to get to that.

2700
02:51:48,760 --> 02:51:52,280
So right after this May 19th,
this is really important.

2701
02:51:52,600 --> 02:51:59,560
May 19th, 1890, the church tried
to contest the constitutionality

2702
02:51:59,560 --> 02:52:03,360
of the Edmonds Tucker Act and
they shot it down.

2703
02:52:04,000 --> 02:52:08,320
I'm meaning the the federal
government shot down the appeal

2704
02:52:08,840 --> 02:52:16,600
of the church challenging the
constitutionality and pretty

2705
02:52:16,600 --> 02:52:25,480
soon after that where is it the
see how it's put word comes to

2706
02:52:25,480 --> 02:52:27,520
the church leadership
essentially that the government

2707
02:52:27,520 --> 02:52:30,120
was planning to seize the
temples right after that.

2708
02:52:30,360 --> 02:52:35,120
So you have the that test of the
constitutionality of that act

2709
02:52:35,480 --> 02:52:38,040
passed.
The church is now officially

2710
02:52:39,160 --> 02:52:43,280
disincorporated as a legal
organization and word comes to

2711
02:52:43,280 --> 02:52:47,440
the church officials that the
author authorities are coming to

2712
02:52:47,440 --> 02:52:51,360
seize the temples as assets like
it is copied.

2713
02:52:53,280 --> 02:52:58,520
And we see that context brought
up at least in the a year later,

2714
02:52:58,600 --> 02:53:02,120
you know, in 1891, President
Woodruff makes that statement in

2715
02:53:03,880 --> 02:53:07,240
Cache County that the Lord
showed me a vision.

2716
02:53:07,240 --> 02:53:10,160
What would happen if I didn't
sign that document, right?

2717
02:53:11,520 --> 02:53:17,520
What do you think about that?
So I don't have reason to

2718
02:53:17,520 --> 02:53:22,480
disbelieve that Wilford maybe
did receive a vision showing

2719
02:53:22,480 --> 02:53:26,080
what would happen if he didn't
sign the manifesto.

2720
02:53:26,680 --> 02:53:31,840
And there is every reason to
believe that for a time we could

2721
02:53:31,840 --> 02:53:37,240
have lost the temples.
I have no reason not to believe

2722
02:53:37,240 --> 02:53:42,320
that.
However, it's not so much what

2723
02:53:42,320 --> 02:53:47,560
Wilford said there, it's what he
didn't say, right?

2724
02:53:47,840 --> 02:53:54,120
He didn't say what would happen
if they did sign it, and it

2725
02:53:54,120 --> 02:53:59,600
makes me curious if he knew that
in some way they were at a point

2726
02:53:59,600 --> 02:54:02,560
where this needed to happen.
Now just my.

2727
02:54:02,760 --> 02:54:06,200
Thought yeah, this goes.
I I think you're exactly right.

2728
02:54:06,200 --> 02:54:10,520
I think this thing goes into
kind of the line of the position

2729
02:54:10,520 --> 02:54:12,840
we're taught about allegorically
with Adam and Eve.

2730
02:54:14,400 --> 02:54:17,680
And this is what's going to
happen.

2731
02:54:17,800 --> 02:54:20,280
If you want to stay here and
this is what's going to happen.

2732
02:54:20,720 --> 02:54:22,800
If you don't, you're going to
have to partake of the fruit of

2733
02:54:22,800 --> 02:54:25,520
that tree.
But if you, you know.

2734
02:54:25,520 --> 02:54:29,480
But if you don't eat it, you
know, or you know, you know how

2735
02:54:29,520 --> 02:54:32,160
that goes.
In any case, that's what's

2736
02:54:32,160 --> 02:54:35,040
happening here is the Lord.
I think the Lord is showing

2737
02:54:35,040 --> 02:54:37,480
Wilford Woodruff this is what's
going to happen.

2738
02:54:38,640 --> 02:54:41,920
But it's also given to thee,
right?

2739
02:54:41,920 --> 02:54:46,200
As the Lord says it's forbidden
and the Lord has says, don't

2740
02:54:46,200 --> 02:54:49,040
make any concessions at all,
right?

2741
02:54:49,320 --> 02:54:51,040
We have at the Lord of
Revelations.

2742
02:54:51,440 --> 02:54:54,400
But nevertheless, nevertheless
it is given to thee.

2743
02:54:55,000 --> 02:54:56,120
That's what I think has
happened.

2744
02:54:56,280 --> 02:54:59,600
Happening right here is
nevertheless you can decide for

2745
02:54:59,600 --> 02:55:05,400
yourself and you can make that
choice and that won't happen.

2746
02:55:06,120 --> 02:55:11,440
Well, I I honestly think in a
moment of, I don't want to say

2747
02:55:11,440 --> 02:55:19,320
hubris, but I think Wilford
probably develops a plan that

2748
02:55:19,320 --> 02:55:23,880
never gets fully implemented.
Because as we talked about when

2749
02:55:23,880 --> 02:55:27,640
we were talking about John W
Taylor, I mean Joseph Musser,

2750
02:55:28,400 --> 02:55:33,080
there was this feeling that,
hey, keep your family records

2751
02:55:33,080 --> 02:55:35,000
because we're going to be
bringing you right back in.

2752
02:55:35,640 --> 02:55:38,680
Sure.
And I think Taylor, I mean, not

2753
02:55:38,680 --> 02:55:43,920
Taylor Woodruff really thought,
OK, we can play this word game

2754
02:55:43,920 --> 02:55:49,080
here and we'll let this all blow
over and then we'll just go back

2755
02:55:49,080 --> 02:55:51,600
to the practice and we'll be
really quiet about it.

2756
02:55:52,600 --> 02:55:55,960
Sure.
And I honestly think, and again,

2757
02:55:55,960 --> 02:56:01,040
I have nothing to back this up
other than what's on the the,

2758
02:56:01,200 --> 02:56:04,000
the the lips of people around
there.

2759
02:56:04,560 --> 02:56:08,480
You know, again, pointing to, to
stuff that happened with Musser,

2760
02:56:09,680 --> 02:56:14,200
this idea for many years that
that fundamentalists shouldn't

2761
02:56:14,200 --> 02:56:18,040
build a temple because that's,
you know, we'll be called back

2762
02:56:18,040 --> 02:56:20,480
in and and all these things,
right?

2763
02:56:21,400 --> 02:56:23,960
Sure.
I honestly think Wilford had

2764
02:56:23,960 --> 02:56:26,600
this idea, OK, let's let's not
lose the temples.

2765
02:56:26,600 --> 02:56:30,480
Let's play the word game.
And then we'll give it a couple

2766
02:56:30,480 --> 02:56:33,240
of years and we'll just bring
all this back once the

2767
02:56:33,240 --> 02:56:35,560
government's off our ass.
Right.

2768
02:56:36,360 --> 02:56:40,120
But it never gets done.
I I don't.

2769
02:56:41,840 --> 02:56:46,680
I ascribe the best of intents to
Wilford Woodruff, but we all

2770
02:56:46,680 --> 02:56:50,280
know what the road to hell is
paved with right good

2771
02:56:50,280 --> 02:56:54,960
intentions.
And so I I think this is, sadly,

2772
02:56:55,000 --> 02:56:59,120
I think this is kind of a
cautionary tale of when the Lord

2773
02:56:59,120 --> 02:57:01,760
tells you something you you
might want to think about

2774
02:57:01,760 --> 02:57:06,120
sticking with it.
Yeah, I think so too.

2775
02:57:06,120 --> 02:57:08,640
I, like I said, I think it.
I think it would have turned out

2776
02:57:09,000 --> 02:57:11,720
because Wolford Woodruff says
that I saw the leading men in

2777
02:57:11,720 --> 02:57:14,160
Israel imprisoned.
I saw the temples take him.

2778
02:57:14,800 --> 02:57:21,240
And so you see he's seeing the
this Short Creek type raid on a

2779
02:57:21,400 --> 02:57:24,560
massive scale.
But I really think that there

2780
02:57:24,560 --> 02:57:27,760
would have been deliverance and
that was probably the test of

2781
02:57:27,760 --> 02:57:31,600
that generation, that second
generation that's being raised

2782
02:57:32,560 --> 02:57:34,840
in the restored gospel, you
know, because the first

2783
02:57:34,840 --> 02:57:37,200
generation went through their
tests.

2784
02:57:37,400 --> 02:57:38,400
They paid their.
Dues.

2785
02:57:38,960 --> 02:57:42,840
Yeah, they did.
And like you said, Wilford

2786
02:57:42,840 --> 02:57:46,120
Woodruff had zero intention of
really giving up the principal.

2787
02:57:46,120 --> 02:57:47,800
And we're going to see that as
we go through this.

2788
02:57:48,960 --> 02:57:52,360
So we get to conference time.
They've decided after all this,

2789
02:57:52,360 --> 02:57:55,960
they get the news, yeah, this,
this is going down.

2790
02:57:55,960 --> 02:57:58,160
We're going to issue this, this
statement.

2791
02:57:58,160 --> 02:58:06,000
And The funny thing about this
is that which is not widely

2792
02:58:06,000 --> 02:58:09,400
known but can be proven, Wilford
Woodruff did not write the

2793
02:58:09,400 --> 02:58:10,680
manifesto.
Nope.

2794
02:58:12,840 --> 02:58:19,240
He wrote a draft.
And then he took it to Charles

2795
02:58:19,240 --> 02:58:28,040
Penrose and Franklin S Richards
and George Reynolds, and they

2796
02:58:28,040 --> 02:58:33,760
took that draft.
And then they edited it and

2797
02:58:33,760 --> 02:58:38,480
compiled it.
And the original is in an entry

2798
02:58:38,480 --> 02:58:42,200
in George Q Cannon's journal
that he copied into his journal,

2799
02:58:42,520 --> 02:58:47,640
but the original was destroyed.
But a copy of it is in George

2800
02:58:47,640 --> 02:58:52,800
Q's George Q Canon's Journal.
I don't know if it's censored on

2801
02:58:53,040 --> 02:58:58,400
church access type websites, but
I have a published copy of

2802
02:58:58,400 --> 02:58:59,920
excerpts of it and it is in
there.

2803
02:59:02,120 --> 02:59:04,480
How different is it?
Oh, it's.

2804
02:59:04,600 --> 02:59:08,040
I mean, I don't think it's
necessary to go into, but it's a

2805
02:59:09,160 --> 02:59:14,600
it just when you compare the two
things you see that it's just

2806
02:59:15,200 --> 02:59:17,280
this.
This was never intended to be a

2807
02:59:17,280 --> 02:59:20,960
Thus saith the Lord Revelation.
This was never a revelation from

2808
02:59:20,960 --> 02:59:23,080
God.
Right.

2809
02:59:23,640 --> 02:59:26,840
And there was both of them just
contain flat out lies First off

2810
02:59:26,840 --> 02:59:30,200
like that and Thias Cowley Thing
and Hans Jesperson.

2811
02:59:30,200 --> 02:59:32,400
You know, no plural marriages
have been done without our

2812
02:59:32,400 --> 02:59:34,520
knowledge in the last 18 months
or whatever.

2813
02:59:35,120 --> 02:59:37,840
Dude, 2 apostles just married
two dudes in the endowment

2814
02:59:37,840 --> 02:59:41,400
house.
Right, Yeah.

2815
02:59:43,520 --> 02:59:50,760
In any case, an incident in John
W Taylor's life relatively close

2816
02:59:50,760 --> 02:59:52,600
to the manifesto.
Right before conference he was

2817
02:59:52,600 --> 02:59:57,280
out in Vernal, UT and somehow
was able to have a wholesale

2818
02:59:57,280 --> 03:00:02,720
baptism thing and he got 146
adults, not counting children,

2819
03:00:03,720 --> 03:00:05,560
to get into the canal and be re
baptized.

2820
03:00:05,840 --> 03:00:11,320
Wow.
And then makes it back to Salt

2821
03:00:11,320 --> 03:00:13,920
Lake, just in time to hear the
manifesto being given in

2822
03:00:13,920 --> 03:00:17,000
conference.
What's his reaction to that?

2823
03:00:17,560 --> 03:00:20,400
We're going to get to that.
I want to read what Mariner

2824
03:00:20,400 --> 03:00:22,720
Merrill wrote in his journal
because they have a meeting of

2825
03:00:22,720 --> 03:00:26,360
the Quorum of the 12 first
before it's announced.

2826
03:00:28,840 --> 03:00:32,240
And Mariner Merrill, who's an
apostle, one of my favorite

2827
03:00:32,240 --> 03:00:35,520
after researching this topic.
He is one of my favorites.

2828
03:00:36,800 --> 03:00:40,120
I went to Salt Lake and met in
council with President Woodruff,

2829
03:00:40,200 --> 03:00:43,560
George Q Cannon and Joseph F
Smith, Franklin D Richards and

2830
03:00:43,560 --> 03:00:47,920
Moses Thatcher where President
Woodruff had an article read.

2831
03:00:48,200 --> 03:00:54,760
He had prepared crack that up an
article he had prepared for the

2832
03:00:54,760 --> 03:00:58,240
Press of the country, declaring
to the world that we did not

2833
03:00:58,240 --> 03:01:01,280
celebrate plural marriages now
in the Church, and that he

2834
03:01:01,280 --> 03:01:04,120
counseled the members of the
Church not to break the law in

2835
03:01:04,120 --> 03:01:09,040
relation to plural marriage.
The article was approved of by

2836
03:01:09,040 --> 03:01:12,760
all the Brethren present,
including myself, which seems

2837
03:01:12,760 --> 03:01:16,840
the only way to retain the
possession of our temples and

2838
03:01:16,840 --> 03:01:20,800
continue the ordinance work for
the living and the dead, which

2839
03:01:20,800 --> 03:01:24,480
was considered more important
than continuing the practice of

2840
03:01:24,480 --> 03:01:28,920
plural marriage for the present.
For the present.

2841
03:01:29,680 --> 03:01:31,880
So he qualified that, didn't he?
Yep.

2842
03:01:33,480 --> 03:01:37,160
So hold on for Brother Merrill
for a little bit, but we'll come

2843
03:01:37,160 --> 03:01:40,480
back to him.
Heber J.

2844
03:01:40,480 --> 03:01:46,040
Grant.
His commentary to that was I

2845
03:01:46,040 --> 03:01:49,040
feel that it is merely a public
announcement of the course,

2846
03:01:49,040 --> 03:01:52,440
which we have already decided in
our private councils to adopt.

2847
03:01:53,040 --> 03:01:56,840
Yet I believe greater troubles
will follow the prominent elders

2848
03:01:56,840 --> 03:01:59,440
in the church through the
adoption of this policy.

2849
03:02:01,800 --> 03:02:06,480
I'm surprised, Grant said that.
He was against it at first, very

2850
03:02:06,480 --> 03:02:07,960
much against it.
They all were.

2851
03:02:07,960 --> 03:02:10,640
They're being, they felt
completely forced into this

2852
03:02:11,000 --> 03:02:16,840
situation.
Abraham H Cannon records what

2853
03:02:16,840 --> 03:02:23,680
John W Taylor said, he says.
When I first heard of this

2854
03:02:23,680 --> 03:02:27,920
manifesto, I felt to say damn
it, but on further thought I

2855
03:02:27,920 --> 03:02:30,280
felt it was not right to be so
impulsive.

2856
03:02:30,880 --> 03:02:33,000
I did not yet feel quite right
about it.

2857
03:02:33,000 --> 03:02:36,520
My father, when president of
this Church, sought to find a

2858
03:02:36,520 --> 03:02:38,920
way to evade the conflict
between the Saints and the

2859
03:02:38,920 --> 03:02:41,920
government on the question of
plural marriage, but the Lord

2860
03:02:41,920 --> 03:02:45,760
said it was an eternal and
unchangeable law and must stand.

2861
03:02:46,560 --> 03:02:49,920
President Woodruff lately
received an encouraging

2862
03:02:49,920 --> 03:02:51,800
revelation in regard to this
principle.

2863
03:02:52,120 --> 03:02:55,760
And now I ask myself, is the
Lord a child that he thus

2864
03:02:55,760 --> 03:02:59,960
changes?
Yet I feel that the Lord giveth

2865
03:02:59,960 --> 03:03:01,880
a law and He can also take it
away.

2866
03:03:03,040 --> 03:03:07,640
He brought up in that meeting
the 1886 revelation and the 1889

2867
03:03:07,640 --> 03:03:11,240
revelation of Wolford Woodruff
to talk about.

2868
03:03:11,640 --> 03:03:15,360
And so the evidence, First off,
that the Church denied that the

2869
03:03:15,360 --> 03:03:18,080
1886 revelation was ever talked
about.

2870
03:03:18,600 --> 03:03:23,440
It was talked about in that
meeting on September 26th, 1890,

2871
03:03:26,040 --> 03:03:30,920
you know?
I can imagine that, pardon the

2872
03:03:30,920 --> 03:03:34,560
expression, this must have felt
like a kick in the nuts to John

2873
03:03:34,560 --> 03:03:36,960
W Taylor a little bit.
Right.

2874
03:03:37,480 --> 03:03:45,520
Because you're your dad.
Your dad died in hiding, holding

2875
03:03:45,520 --> 03:03:50,120
out on this.
And now, in a stunning move, you

2876
03:03:51,320 --> 03:03:54,520
you're going to at least put on
the face that you're not going

2877
03:03:54,520 --> 03:03:57,920
to do this.
I can only imagine the

2878
03:03:57,920 --> 03:04:00,760
heartbreak and maybe a little
bit of the sense of betrayal

2879
03:04:00,760 --> 03:04:03,160
that that he had to have felt at
that moment.

2880
03:04:05,000 --> 03:04:08,000
Yeah, I mean, you can see that
in the words he he uses.

2881
03:04:08,040 --> 03:04:11,080
Is the Lord a child that he thus
changes his mind, right?

2882
03:04:11,080 --> 03:04:13,040
Of course not.
It's a rhetorical question.

2883
03:04:13,040 --> 03:04:15,320
Of course he's not, and he knows
he knows the Lord is not.

2884
03:04:15,320 --> 03:04:20,080
And so he's completely confused
because not only does the Lord

2885
03:04:20,080 --> 03:04:23,400
not act that way, but the
Brethren had received two

2886
03:04:23,400 --> 03:04:26,960
revelations.
Thus say, Lord, do not do this

2887
03:04:26,960 --> 03:04:28,960
or I cannot do this.
I will not suspend this.

2888
03:04:29,280 --> 03:04:33,000
It's a John W Taylor.
This is like he was already kind

2889
03:04:33,000 --> 03:04:35,800
of causing trouble, right,
Getting arrested in Idaho by

2890
03:04:35,800 --> 03:04:38,640
saying I'm going to live
polygamy, you know, at a point

2891
03:04:38,680 --> 03:04:43,000
in time where right you know.
And he will be consistently the

2892
03:04:43,000 --> 03:04:46,480
most outspoken in public and
private for the rest of his life

2893
03:04:47,720 --> 03:04:49,640
compared to the rest of his
brethren.

2894
03:04:50,920 --> 03:04:54,800
But he was converted to this
probably before the 1886

2895
03:04:54,800 --> 03:04:57,160
revelation.
But he was going to die on that

2896
03:04:57,160 --> 03:05:01,120
hill after he read that when he
found his father's belongings.

2897
03:05:01,880 --> 03:05:09,720
Yeah, absolutely case.
In point, the manifesto, I think

2898
03:05:09,720 --> 03:05:14,800
was given to the Church in
conference on October 6th, 1890,

2899
03:05:15,280 --> 03:05:20,360
and four days later, after the
manifesto, he marries his third

2900
03:05:20,360 --> 03:05:24,040
wife, Samuel Wooley's daughter
Janet Maria.

2901
03:05:24,040 --> 03:05:29,240
Wooley, That absolutely is the
gospel version of Hold My Beer.

2902
03:05:29,880 --> 03:05:32,080
Yeah.
Yeah, and I want to read a

2903
03:05:32,080 --> 03:05:34,640
little bit of what this is kind
of fun.

2904
03:05:34,640 --> 03:05:36,960
I think this is from Family
Kingdom.

2905
03:05:39,400 --> 03:05:42,040
Certain endowments are required
for a Mormon marriage.

2906
03:05:42,240 --> 03:05:43,880
These have been taken
beforehand.

2907
03:05:44,400 --> 03:05:47,200
When the carriage reached a
lonely lane in Liberty Park, the

2908
03:05:47,200 --> 03:05:50,520
drive the driver reigned turned
in his seat, and by the

2909
03:05:50,520 --> 03:05:54,520
authority of the priesthood,
united John W Taylor and Janet

2910
03:05:54,520 --> 03:05:56,680
Maria Woolley in the new and
everlasting covenant of

2911
03:05:56,680 --> 03:05:58,840
marriage.
There could be no record made of

2912
03:05:58,840 --> 03:06:01,520
the ceremony.
When the carriage returns, John

2913
03:06:01,520 --> 03:06:04,080
politely said goodnight to his
bride and drove away.

2914
03:06:04,160 --> 03:06:08,080
Mother went inside and met
Lottie's questioning and said

2915
03:06:08,080 --> 03:06:10,680
nothing.
Lottie was her roommate, who was

2916
03:06:10,680 --> 03:06:13,400
the other apostle.
I don't believe his.

2917
03:06:13,600 --> 03:06:17,640
I remember his name.
Mother said It was Francis M

2918
03:06:17,640 --> 03:06:23,080
Lyman.
She goes home, and her this is

2919
03:06:23,080 --> 03:06:25,720
right after conference, right?
So her father asks her, how was

2920
03:06:25,720 --> 03:06:31,800
conference?
And so she says just fine.

2921
03:06:31,800 --> 03:06:33,280
Father.
Well, how was Lottie?

2922
03:06:33,280 --> 03:06:34,880
She's well.
We had a nice visit.

2923
03:06:36,440 --> 03:06:40,840
I don't understand her, Samuel
says, waiting to go off and live

2924
03:06:40,840 --> 03:06:44,280
by herself in the city.
What girls don't do these days.

2925
03:06:45,560 --> 03:06:47,840
Well, I suppose she's old enough
to do what she wants.

2926
03:06:47,840 --> 03:06:50,600
It's none of my affair.
This was the official attitude

2927
03:06:50,600 --> 03:06:53,800
of the family.
Laudia just gone to Salt Lake on

2928
03:06:53,800 --> 03:06:55,840
a whim.
No one must have actual

2929
03:06:55,840 --> 03:06:58,720
knowledge of a plural marriage
these days, so she must have

2930
03:06:58,720 --> 03:07:00,640
been a plural wife to someone
else at that point.

2931
03:07:01,560 --> 03:07:05,960
Too bad I missed conference.
Grandfather Samuel said he was

2932
03:07:05,960 --> 03:07:08,880
very busy recouping the losses
sustained during the years of

2933
03:07:08,880 --> 03:07:11,080
the underground and his months
in prison.

2934
03:07:11,320 --> 03:07:12,960
Oh yeah, he was arrested.
By the way.

2935
03:07:14,040 --> 03:07:15,280
Darn it.
I was going to tell a story

2936
03:07:15,280 --> 03:07:18,960
about him earlier, so he hold on
full stop.

2937
03:07:18,960 --> 03:07:23,600
I got to stop.
His first wife was a niece of

2938
03:07:23,600 --> 03:07:29,840
Brigham Young, and so he gets
word one day through his wife

2939
03:07:31,160 --> 03:07:34,160
that the brethren have told you
you need to take another wife.

2940
03:07:34,680 --> 03:07:40,920
Right.
And he's like, not right now.

2941
03:07:40,920 --> 03:07:43,040
Or maybe not ever, you know.
Too.

2942
03:07:43,040 --> 03:07:45,360
Much.
I'm not anyone in the church,

2943
03:07:45,440 --> 03:07:47,080
you know, all that kind of a
thing.

2944
03:07:48,640 --> 03:07:53,120
And I don't think she was really
super forward either,

2945
03:07:53,120 --> 03:07:58,680
necessarily.
Bud Brigham Young was, and I

2946
03:07:58,680 --> 03:08:00,080
don't know if he prayed about
it.

2947
03:08:00,080 --> 03:08:04,600
I don't recall.
He probably did, because in any

2948
03:08:04,600 --> 03:08:14,560
case he woke up one night and
had a visitor and he, the Angel

2949
03:08:14,560 --> 03:08:19,120
told him who he was going to
marry.

2950
03:08:19,520 --> 03:08:21,520
And I don't know where she was
living.

2951
03:08:21,520 --> 03:08:23,760
I think she was probably living
in Tuwila, I think.

2952
03:08:23,760 --> 03:08:28,320
And so from Grantsville, went to
Tuwila during state conference,

2953
03:08:28,320 --> 03:08:31,320
found this girl and proposed to
her out of the blue.

2954
03:08:31,840 --> 03:08:34,240
Wow.
Out of the blue, she was also

2955
03:08:34,240 --> 03:08:37,200
engaged to someone serving a
mission at that point, Poor

2956
03:08:37,200 --> 03:08:43,880
Albert.
But in any case, she was

2957
03:08:43,880 --> 03:08:47,480
shocked.
And kind of almost offended.

2958
03:08:48,080 --> 03:08:55,200
And then began thinking about it
and, you know, thinking, oh,

2959
03:08:55,200 --> 03:08:57,800
maybe he'll send a letter or
maybe he'll send flowers.

2960
03:08:58,680 --> 03:09:03,040
And then he never did.
He couldn't get him out of her

2961
03:09:03,040 --> 03:09:06,760
head.
And then she prayed about it and

2962
03:09:06,760 --> 03:09:10,000
got an answer, and she decided
she'd marry him.

2963
03:09:10,520 --> 03:09:14,960
And that was the mother of Janet
Maria Wooley, who marries John W

2964
03:09:14,960 --> 03:09:16,560
Taylor.
Gotcha.

2965
03:09:17,160 --> 03:09:20,080
So.
Interesting bold man just goes

2966
03:09:20,080 --> 03:09:22,000
just show up at state
conference.

2967
03:09:24,280 --> 03:09:26,120
Isn't that great?
That's awesome.

2968
03:09:26,480 --> 03:09:30,640
I'm not saying that you need a
revelation of that magnitude to

2969
03:09:30,640 --> 03:09:34,200
live the principle, but that
definitely shows you some, some

2970
03:09:34,200 --> 03:09:36,760
Providence in the hands of that
family, you know?

2971
03:09:37,200 --> 03:09:40,160
Absolutely.
Anyway, back to the account.

2972
03:09:40,360 --> 03:09:42,800
Samuel Woolley and his daughter
are talking.

2973
03:09:43,960 --> 03:09:46,600
He asks her anything unusual
happen?

2974
03:09:47,160 --> 03:09:52,440
No, nothing.
But she she felt he, her father

2975
03:09:52,440 --> 03:09:55,960
should know of the marriage.
He should know, but not know.

2976
03:09:56,640 --> 03:09:59,320
Right.
A man of strict honesty, he

2977
03:09:59,320 --> 03:10:02,160
wouldn't want to know anything
if it came to a matter of

2978
03:10:02,160 --> 03:10:05,880
testifying before a grand jury,
she said.

2979
03:10:05,960 --> 03:10:09,080
Apostle Taylor called around one
evening and took me for a

2980
03:10:09,080 --> 03:10:10,760
carriage ride through Liberty
Park.

2981
03:10:11,480 --> 03:10:15,080
Well, that could cause talk.
We were chaperoned by another

2982
03:10:15,080 --> 03:10:20,360
apostle, oh Grandfather said.
He's not putting it together

2983
03:10:20,360 --> 03:10:23,040
yet.
Brother Taylor is a fine man,

2984
03:10:24,560 --> 03:10:27,440
Mother said.
Or Jana said, the endowment

2985
03:10:27,440 --> 03:10:30,960
house is being torn down.
May some say there will be no

2986
03:10:30,960 --> 03:10:36,680
more plural marriages, he says.
We hear so many things these

2987
03:10:36,680 --> 03:10:40,560
days.
There was now a period of

2988
03:10:40,720 --> 03:10:43,880
comparative truce.
Church officials had ceased the

2989
03:10:43,880 --> 03:10:46,600
public preaching of the
principle as evidence of good

2990
03:10:46,600 --> 03:10:48,160
faith.
Many polygamists had emerged

2991
03:10:48,160 --> 03:10:50,080
from the underground and
surrendered to the law.

2992
03:10:52,200 --> 03:10:54,640
And, she says to him.
But I hear there are still a few

2993
03:10:54,640 --> 03:10:56,560
marriages being performed
quietly.

2994
03:10:57,120 --> 03:11:00,560
I heard that girl.
I heard that a girl was married

2995
03:11:00,560 --> 03:11:05,440
to an apostle while in the Salt
Lake conference and he says we

2996
03:11:05,440 --> 03:11:10,480
shouldn't listen to such tales.
I don't want his name or hers.

2997
03:11:11,000 --> 03:11:15,360
Then he asked, how do they say
they were married by another

2998
03:11:15,360 --> 03:11:23,960
apostle during a carriage ride?
Oh, that's awesome.

2999
03:11:27,400 --> 03:11:29,880
He says to her.
We won't repeat such gossip,

3000
03:11:29,880 --> 03:11:31,680
Janet.
Of course not, Father.

3001
03:11:32,160 --> 03:11:33,840
And then he put a hand on her
head.

3002
03:11:34,160 --> 03:11:37,000
If that girl were a daughter of
mine, I would give her my

3003
03:11:37,000 --> 03:11:42,040
blessing.
Awesome, So he knows, but not

3004
03:11:42,040 --> 03:11:45,000
but doesn't know in her words at
that point.

3005
03:11:45,080 --> 03:11:48,840
And so that's the way it was at
that point.

3006
03:11:48,840 --> 03:11:50,760
That's the level it was taken to
now.

3007
03:11:50,800 --> 03:11:55,920
And people were being sent by
Wolf or Woodruff even after

3008
03:11:55,920 --> 03:11:59,240
this.
In fact, Byron Harvey, Allred

3009
03:11:59,240 --> 03:12:03,920
senior, which is ruling Allred's
grandfather was engaged to a

3010
03:12:03,920 --> 03:12:07,200
lady before the manifesto was
issued.

3011
03:12:07,800 --> 03:12:11,200
And afterwards he went to
Wolford Woodruff and he said go

3012
03:12:11,200 --> 03:12:14,880
down to Mexico and this will be
taken care of by George

3013
03:12:14,880 --> 03:12:19,960
Teasdale.
Or actually it was it was

3014
03:12:19,960 --> 03:12:24,440
Alexander McDonald at that point
but and they took care of that

3015
03:12:25,440 --> 03:12:27,520
right then and there.
And so Woodruff sending people

3016
03:12:27,520 --> 03:12:32,480
down there, let's see here's
another funny story that happens

3017
03:12:32,480 --> 03:12:34,920
around this time.
Not polygamy related, just just

3018
03:12:34,920 --> 03:12:41,040
a fun John W thing.
John W Taylor kind of becomes

3019
03:12:41,040 --> 03:12:43,000
one of the resident apostles in
Canada.

3020
03:12:45,200 --> 03:12:48,640
And after being there for a
point and he's and he moves his

3021
03:12:48,640 --> 03:12:53,480
second wife up there, he moves
Nellie Todd up to Canada and

3022
03:12:53,640 --> 03:12:56,120
he's building a house for her.
And there's a drought.

3023
03:12:56,920 --> 03:13:01,320
And so he's feeling pretty lucky
because OK, I can dry some Adobe

3024
03:13:01,320 --> 03:13:07,480
bricks and build this house.
And then a bunch of the Saints

3025
03:13:07,680 --> 03:13:11,800
from the colony just come and
ask him for rain.

3026
03:13:11,800 --> 03:13:15,720
Like you need to pray for rain.
We're dying, you know, he says.

3027
03:13:15,840 --> 03:13:21,560
And ruin my adobes, you know,
But he, he goes and he covers

3028
03:13:21,560 --> 03:13:24,040
his bricks, right?
And then he goes to the meeting

3029
03:13:24,040 --> 03:13:29,360
house and he can call in a
meeting and it's packed, OK?

3030
03:13:30,040 --> 03:13:32,160
And he gets up and he says, I
don't understand it.

3031
03:13:32,400 --> 03:13:35,200
Why are you all here?
To pray for rain, they say.

3032
03:13:35,680 --> 03:13:39,880
Do you think it'll do any good?
The people look around.

3033
03:13:39,880 --> 03:13:41,720
What?
That one another baffled.

3034
03:13:42,560 --> 03:13:44,880
Well, why else would we be here?
Right.

3035
03:13:45,960 --> 03:13:48,840
And he says, brothers and
sisters, faith moves mountains.

3036
03:13:49,160 --> 03:13:52,200
But from what I see here, I
doubt if you have any faith.

3037
03:13:53,320 --> 03:13:56,920
The audience is squirming
uncomfortably now, looking about

3038
03:13:56,920 --> 03:13:58,840
for visible evidence of a lack
of faith.

3039
03:14:03,720 --> 03:14:07,880
And he says, Do you feel that
you have faith that our prayers

3040
03:14:07,880 --> 03:14:10,640
for rain will be answered?
Yes.

3041
03:14:11,000 --> 03:14:12,400
Do you believe it in your
hearts?

3042
03:14:12,920 --> 03:14:17,520
Yes.
Then why is it, John asked, that

3043
03:14:17,520 --> 03:14:20,280
not a single person in this
house brought an umbrella?

3044
03:14:21,320 --> 03:14:23,800
That's awesome.
Nice.

3045
03:14:25,200 --> 03:14:28,720
And of course, he prays for
rain, and rain comes.

3046
03:14:29,280 --> 03:14:34,160
So something Something's
working.

3047
03:14:34,320 --> 03:14:39,280
Yeah.
May 26th, 19818 Ninety one.

3048
03:14:39,280 --> 03:14:42,160
That's when George E Woolley
received a letter from Lauren

3049
03:14:42,160 --> 03:14:45,040
Woolley regarding the 1886
events.

3050
03:14:49,240 --> 03:14:53,400
So practically right on the
heels of the manifesto, Abraham

3051
03:14:53,400 --> 03:14:59,920
H Cannon writes in his journal
of July, July 1891,

3052
03:14:59,920 --> 03:15:03,480
corroborating the visitations
that John Taylor had had with

3053
03:15:03,480 --> 03:15:07,800
Joseph Smith.
And he says, or he records in

3054
03:15:07,800 --> 03:15:10,520
his journal that apostle Mariner
Merrill, right, the same person

3055
03:15:10,520 --> 03:15:15,560
writing in his journal.
We're we're going to issue this

3056
03:15:15,560 --> 03:15:20,120
article that will allow us to
keep the temples because at this

3057
03:15:20,120 --> 03:15:24,440
time we deem that more important
than polygamy, he writes.

3058
03:15:24,720 --> 03:15:26,400
Or he says to the rest of the
quorum.

3059
03:15:26,560 --> 03:15:29,680
Last time I saw President
Taylor, he said to me, I may

3060
03:15:29,680 --> 03:15:33,560
never see you again.
And I want to tell you that I

3061
03:15:33,560 --> 03:15:36,560
have seen the Prophet Joseph who
said that the Lord did not want

3062
03:15:36,560 --> 03:15:40,400
his people to be concerned about
the raid or inquire when it

3063
03:15:40,400 --> 03:15:43,320
would cease.
I will stop it in my own time.

3064
03:15:44,040 --> 03:15:47,880
Joseph, however, said it made
him sad to see his own son

3065
03:15:48,160 --> 03:15:50,920
traveling through the territory,
preaching against the church and

3066
03:15:50,920 --> 03:15:54,120
trying to tear down what he had
given his life to establish.

3067
03:15:58,640 --> 03:16:04,560
After the manifesto was issued,
attorneys and other government

3068
03:16:04,560 --> 03:16:09,320
officials basically ask they
have an investigation and they

3069
03:16:09,320 --> 03:16:13,960
asked some of the leading
brethren to come in and they're

3070
03:16:13,960 --> 03:16:17,200
going to ask them all sorts of
questions, like, do you think

3071
03:16:17,200 --> 03:16:21,120
you're going to restore polygamy
after a while, or are you doing

3072
03:16:21,560 --> 03:16:25,520
this again, or basically the
judge or gauge how sincere they

3073
03:16:25,520 --> 03:16:31,400
were?
And it it's it's really hard.

3074
03:16:31,400 --> 03:16:38,760
Basically, Wilfred Woodruff was
feeling compelled to make

3075
03:16:38,760 --> 03:16:44,800
statements, and they are on
record basically saying that I

3076
03:16:44,800 --> 03:16:47,480
don't want people cohabitating
with your plural wives.

3077
03:16:47,480 --> 03:16:50,560
Stay with one.
And no, we're not going to live

3078
03:16:50,560 --> 03:16:53,000
this anywhere kind of a thing.
And those are public statements.

3079
03:16:53,200 --> 03:16:57,440
And then you'd go back to the
Brethren, or just to the Saints

3080
03:16:57,440 --> 03:17:00,720
in general and say any man who
doesn't live with his wives is a

3081
03:17:00,720 --> 03:17:05,640
coward, you know?
You know, we're getting into a

3082
03:17:05,640 --> 03:17:09,680
point now to where I I feel like
the scripture about trying to

3083
03:17:09,680 --> 03:17:18,520
serve 2 masters really comes
into play and it's it's

3084
03:17:18,520 --> 03:17:22,680
completely I I feel for some of
those early Saints in there

3085
03:17:23,360 --> 03:17:25,920
because they're receiving such
mixed messages.

3086
03:17:26,320 --> 03:17:29,440
They are.
So they're asking in these

3087
03:17:29,440 --> 03:17:33,520
meetings, who do we want to send
to the stand to testify and all

3088
03:17:33,520 --> 03:17:35,360
that?
Brother Merrill says.

3089
03:17:35,360 --> 03:17:40,360
Heck no, I'm not going to do it.
I'm not going to lie, he says.

3090
03:17:40,360 --> 03:17:42,280
I'll support you guys if you
want to do that, but I'm not

3091
03:17:42,280 --> 03:17:47,520
going to do it.
John W Taylor seemed to be the

3092
03:17:47,520 --> 03:17:53,960
exception to sustaining any form
of plan having to do with this,

3093
03:17:53,960 --> 03:17:58,920
by the way.
And it says in George Q Cannon's

3094
03:17:58,920 --> 03:18:02,200
journal, all the Brethren
present accepting Brother John W

3095
03:18:02,200 --> 03:18:06,040
Taylor voted to sustain the
Brethren in these replies if

3096
03:18:06,040 --> 03:18:09,480
they were put on the stand and
chose to answer in that strain.

3097
03:18:10,000 --> 03:18:12,480
Such inquiries.
Brother John W Taylor did not

3098
03:18:12,480 --> 03:18:16,600
vote either for the scheme which
had been prepared and which was

3099
03:18:16,600 --> 03:18:19,560
read by Franklin S Richards.
It is necessary, according to

3100
03:18:19,560 --> 03:18:22,360
the decision of the Supreme
Court, that the Master in

3101
03:18:22,360 --> 03:18:25,640
Chancery should have prepare a
scheme to submit.

3102
03:18:25,640 --> 03:18:29,200
And of course, in order that he
might do so, a scheme had been

3103
03:18:29,200 --> 03:18:32,960
prepared by our attorneys.
A motion was made that the

3104
03:18:32,960 --> 03:18:37,440
scheme be sustained whatever,
whenever it should be approved

3105
03:18:37,440 --> 03:18:40,520
by the 1st Presidency.
All voted for this except

3106
03:18:40,520 --> 03:18:44,120
Brother Taylor.
These remarks were made during a

3107
03:18:44,120 --> 03:18:46,760
discussion concerning the
character of the Manifesto.

3108
03:18:47,400 --> 03:18:52,480
Brother Joseph F Smith in his
remarks today, asserted that it

3109
03:18:52,480 --> 03:18:56,560
was not a revelation and that he
did not look upon it in that

3110
03:18:56,560 --> 03:18:59,600
light.
His view was that President

3111
03:18:59,600 --> 03:19:02,920
Woodruff had been led by the
Spirit to do as he did and

3112
03:19:02,920 --> 03:19:05,800
sustained him in doing it.
But he contended that it was not

3113
03:19:05,800 --> 03:19:07,760
a revelation to abolish
polygamy.

3114
03:19:08,920 --> 03:19:12,720
When he uttered this expression,
I said, Brother Joseph, there is

3115
03:19:12,720 --> 03:19:16,760
none of our apostles here who
consider a revelation to abolish

3116
03:19:16,760 --> 03:19:19,040
polygamy.
We do not look upon it in that

3117
03:19:19,040 --> 03:19:21,240
light, and there is no
difference in our views.

3118
03:19:21,240 --> 03:19:24,160
I agree with you in many of your
statements concerning the

3119
03:19:24,160 --> 03:19:26,760
character of this communication.
But the difference, if any,

3120
03:19:27,400 --> 03:19:31,400
between us consists in the
meaning attached to words.

3121
03:19:31,920 --> 03:19:33,640
Gotcha.
Yeah.

3122
03:19:33,640 --> 03:19:37,880
So there there is a consensus
there amongst the the quorum of

3123
03:19:37,880 --> 03:19:42,280
the 12 that this is what we had
to say in order to get the

3124
03:19:42,280 --> 03:19:47,640
government off our back.
At that meeting or after that

3125
03:19:47,640 --> 03:19:49,880
meeting, the same day of the
meeting, Mariner Merrill writes

3126
03:19:49,880 --> 03:19:51,880
in his journal.
So that was Cannon's account,

3127
03:19:51,880 --> 03:19:54,120
right?
Merrill reports.

3128
03:19:54,120 --> 03:19:56,760
I was called the Salt Lake City
today by a telegram from

3129
03:19:56,760 --> 03:20:01,000
President Woodruff, met with the
First Presidency and 12, where a

3130
03:20:01,000 --> 03:20:03,520
number of questions were
formulated by the Church

3131
03:20:03,520 --> 03:20:08,120
attorneys.
Relative to the Manifesto and

3132
03:20:08,120 --> 03:20:11,200
forever abandoning the practice
of plural marriage, to which I

3133
03:20:11,200 --> 03:20:15,800
could not accede to or endorse,
nor vote for, as I do not

3134
03:20:15,800 --> 03:20:18,960
believe the Manifesto was a
revelation from God.

3135
03:20:22,760 --> 03:20:29,400
Straight up, it's right there.
Yeah, there's Yeah, I would love

3136
03:20:29,400 --> 03:20:33,360
to know when it was the LDS
Church start calling it an

3137
03:20:33,360 --> 03:20:37,080
actual revelation.
Probably right away.

3138
03:20:37,960 --> 03:20:40,200
You think so?
I do, because we have.

3139
03:20:40,200 --> 03:20:42,160
We're seeing this doublespeak
now.

3140
03:20:42,160 --> 03:20:45,880
Unfortunately and unfortunately,
some of these same people who

3141
03:20:45,880 --> 03:20:51,520
are saying live with your wives,
support them, love them, don't

3142
03:20:51,520 --> 03:20:53,920
give up.
You're a coward if you do, are

3143
03:20:53,920 --> 03:20:58,720
also saying publicly anything
that the government wants them

3144
03:20:58,720 --> 03:21:01,960
to say whatever they need to do
to to they're.

3145
03:21:02,400 --> 03:21:06,520
They're saying everything at
this point that will save the

3146
03:21:06,520 --> 03:21:13,800
temples, save the Church.
And I will say now that one

3147
03:21:13,800 --> 03:21:20,080
historian was writing upon this
time, more particularly in

3148
03:21:20,080 --> 03:21:22,600
reference to Joseph F Smith when
he was president of the Church,

3149
03:21:22,600 --> 03:21:26,920
which we haven't gotten to yet,
says that Joseph F Smith

3150
03:21:27,440 --> 03:21:32,680
intentionally deliberately split
the church right in the middle

3151
03:21:33,120 --> 03:21:37,360
because he had two goals that
were directly opposite of each

3152
03:21:37,360 --> 03:21:40,280
other.
One was the preservation of the

3153
03:21:40,280 --> 03:21:43,480
Church and the other was the
preservation of plural marriage.

3154
03:21:46,120 --> 03:21:48,800
Wow.
Holy cow.

3155
03:21:49,200 --> 03:21:53,280
So he set the church against
itself by because he wanted to

3156
03:21:53,280 --> 03:21:56,960
save both.
And I get it.

3157
03:21:57,720 --> 03:22:00,200
I totally get it.
Right.

3158
03:22:00,720 --> 03:22:03,320
You tell one camp one thing, and
then you tell the brethren set

3159
03:22:03,320 --> 03:22:06,040
apart.
This is what the real deal is.

3160
03:22:06,480 --> 03:22:08,200
Yeah, we have.
There's so much stinking

3161
03:22:08,200 --> 03:22:11,200
evidence for those, it's
ridiculous.

3162
03:22:13,120 --> 03:22:20,600
Let's see where we want to go.
So that was in 1891.

3163
03:22:21,000 --> 03:22:26,400
On a Quorum of the 12 meeting in
April 1st, 1892, John W Taylor

3164
03:22:26,400 --> 03:22:31,760
brings up the 1886 revelation
again a second time or a third

3165
03:22:31,760 --> 03:22:39,360
time at this point.
And John W Taylor says I do not

3166
03:22:39,360 --> 03:22:42,400
know that that thing was right,
though I voted to sustain it and

3167
03:22:42,400 --> 03:22:45,560
I will assist to maintain it.
But among my father's papers I

3168
03:22:45,560 --> 03:22:49,360
found a revelation given him of
the Lord and which is now in my

3169
03:22:49,360 --> 03:22:52,720
possession, in which the Lord
told him that the principle of

3170
03:22:52,720 --> 03:22:55,040
plural marriage would never be
overcome.

3171
03:22:56,000 --> 03:22:58,760
President Taylor desired to have
it suspended, but the Lord would

3172
03:22:58,760 --> 03:23:01,920
not permit it to be done.
Wow.

3173
03:23:03,200 --> 03:23:09,480
So there is practically 0 excuse
for denying that that revelation

3174
03:23:09,480 --> 03:23:11,440
was.
Brought up to the leadership

3175
03:23:11,920 --> 03:23:14,720
that you know, if if there's one
thing we can take away from this

3176
03:23:14,720 --> 03:23:19,680
first part of this episode, the
first part of this this this

3177
03:23:19,680 --> 03:23:26,120
series here on John W Taylor,
it's that the 1886 Revelations

3178
03:23:26,120 --> 03:23:32,680
veracity was never in doubt.
Oh my goodness, no, no, there's

3179
03:23:32,760 --> 03:23:37,160
there's evidence I've If you've
ever seen the Four Hidden

3180
03:23:37,160 --> 03:23:39,960
Revelations pamphlet that the
Nielsen Nailers put out, and

3181
03:23:39,960 --> 03:23:42,240
maybe they already puts out a
copy of it too.

3182
03:23:42,240 --> 03:23:46,640
But you got the the photocopy or
the list of graphic copy or

3183
03:23:46,640 --> 03:23:53,400
whatever it is of both John
Taylor's handwriting and John W

3184
03:23:53,400 --> 03:23:55,520
Taylor's handwriting of the
revelation in both.

3185
03:23:56,000 --> 03:23:58,520
Right.
And so both copies have been

3186
03:23:58,520 --> 03:24:04,800
there.
In John W Taylor's trial many

3187
03:24:04,800 --> 03:24:08,920
years down the road.
They talked about it again, and

3188
03:24:08,920 --> 03:24:14,880
Joseph Fielding Smith admits to
having seen it and putting a

3189
03:24:14,880 --> 03:24:16,480
copy of it in the church
archives.

3190
03:24:17,520 --> 03:24:20,400
Yeah.
You know, it's it's absolutely

3191
03:24:20,840 --> 03:24:27,200
silliness to think, to think
otherwise, and it's just so this

3192
03:24:27,200 --> 03:24:30,480
is 1 lie after another one.
When President Grant and others

3193
03:24:30,480 --> 03:24:33,000
said that that revelation
couldn't be found, or that it

3194
03:24:33,000 --> 03:24:37,520
was spurious, spurious, or
whatever it was, it was just

3195
03:24:37,520 --> 03:24:39,960
saving face.
It was a fly out lie at that

3196
03:24:39,960 --> 03:24:44,640
point.
I I heard an anecdote from Fred

3197
03:24:44,640 --> 03:24:48,920
Collier who went to Spencer W
Kimball.

3198
03:24:49,080 --> 03:24:50,920
That's Spencer Woolley Kimball,
by the way.

3199
03:24:54,040 --> 03:24:56,120
Did you know that?
I didn't know that.

3200
03:24:56,240 --> 03:24:58,120
Yep.
Spencer Woolly Kimball,

3201
03:24:58,120 --> 03:25:01,360
president of the church when he
was a member of the president of

3202
03:25:01,360 --> 03:25:06,120
the church and he asked
President Kimball if the 1886

3203
03:25:06,120 --> 03:25:10,080
revelation was true.
And he told him, yes, it is

3204
03:25:10,080 --> 03:25:12,920
true, but the Woollies had no
right to publish it.

3205
03:25:16,760 --> 03:25:19,240
Well, he's a woolly, you know.
Yeah.

3206
03:25:20,040 --> 03:25:24,200
So it's just that's crazy.
That's crazy.

3207
03:25:25,040 --> 03:25:27,280
Who else would have a right to
publish it thing?

3208
03:25:27,360 --> 03:25:31,480
No, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, I mean, it could have been

3209
03:25:31,480 --> 03:25:33,560
your job to publish it, but you
didn't.

3210
03:25:33,720 --> 03:25:36,800
You know what?
I mean, absolutely, absolutely,

3211
03:25:37,720 --> 03:25:41,680
yeah.
And here we're getting back into

3212
03:25:41,680 --> 03:25:46,320
like forbidden knowledge again,
right Thing that that Joseph I

3213
03:25:46,320 --> 03:25:50,960
think really fought hard against
was this idea of of forbidden

3214
03:25:50,960 --> 03:25:54,240
knowledge right in the time of
Catholicism and and these sorts

3215
03:25:54,240 --> 03:26:01,520
of things rough.
So how far are we in so far?

3216
03:26:01,840 --> 03:26:07,080
We're almost 4 hours in.
Do you want to go ahead and stop

3217
03:26:07,080 --> 03:26:08,560
here?
This might be a good place to

3218
03:26:08,560 --> 03:26:14,080
stop because because I think
from here we'll start seeing

3219
03:26:15,120 --> 03:26:20,360
seeing Taylor start being more
pronounced.

3220
03:26:20,920 --> 03:26:22,920
Yeah, we're getting into the
real and we're going to get into

3221
03:26:22,920 --> 03:26:24,320
the nitty gritty underground
stuff.

3222
03:26:24,360 --> 03:26:30,640
And now fact I was just going to
tell you on July 18th, 1892 is

3223
03:26:31,440 --> 03:26:34,800
up to this point certain people
who had previous permission

3224
03:26:34,880 --> 03:26:37,240
before the manifesto, which was
kind of a surprise, right.

3225
03:26:37,480 --> 03:26:39,720
We're going to spring this on
you right now because we

3226
03:26:39,720 --> 03:26:44,840
received revelations telling us
and so prior people with prior

3227
03:26:44,840 --> 03:26:49,440
promises, we're allowed to go to
Mexico to get things done, but

3228
03:26:49,440 --> 03:26:51,520
it gets really quiet for a
while.

3229
03:26:52,000 --> 03:26:58,400
And the next thing I see is that
George Teasdale, you know,

3230
03:26:58,440 --> 03:27:02,080
called by revelation by John
Taylor, receives a letter from

3231
03:27:02,080 --> 03:27:08,240
George Buchanan, who was at John
Woolley's house authorizing him

3232
03:27:08,240 --> 03:27:10,840
to start performing plural
marriages in Mexico.

3233
03:27:10,880 --> 03:27:16,160
And he's the resident apostle in
Mexico from that point to his

3234
03:27:16,160 --> 03:27:19,560
release as a mission president
in 1895.

3235
03:27:19,560 --> 03:27:23,880
He performed 15 plural ceilings
in those three years.

3236
03:27:24,800 --> 03:27:33,600
Wow, busy guy.
Yeah, I don't think Anthony

3237
03:27:33,600 --> 03:27:37,560
Ivan's list start that starts
that early, but there's a lot

3238
03:27:37,560 --> 03:27:42,600
more that get done later.
In fact, I don't now remember

3239
03:27:42,600 --> 03:27:47,840
the statistic, but the
percentage of plural marriages

3240
03:27:47,920 --> 03:27:56,680
after 1896 when Utah gets
statehood like triples or

3241
03:27:56,680 --> 03:27:59,640
quadruples.
Wow.

3242
03:28:00,200 --> 03:28:02,800
Till the 2nd Manifesto.
Holy cow.

3243
03:28:04,200 --> 03:28:05,840
Yeah.
Wow.

3244
03:28:06,960 --> 03:28:08,760
So that doesn't tell you.
I don't know what will.

3245
03:28:09,080 --> 03:28:11,520
Right.
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely.

3246
03:28:12,920 --> 03:28:16,160
No.
Well, shoot, let's go ahead and

3247
03:28:16,160 --> 03:28:19,520
wrap it up here for tonight.
And then?

3248
03:28:21,040 --> 03:28:25,600
Then we will dive in again and
finish this bad boy off, Yeah.

3249
03:28:27,240 --> 03:28:31,000
Let's try it if we have.
If we have to do a part three,

3250
03:28:31,000 --> 03:28:33,400
we can totally do that too.
No doubt.

3251
03:28:33,520 --> 03:28:34,680
I'm.
I'm cool with it.

3252
03:28:35,040 --> 03:28:37,720
Awesome.
Well, man, good stuff.

3253
03:28:37,720 --> 03:28:39,160
And I'm looking forward to the
next one.

3254
03:28:40,280 --> 03:28:41,480
Me too.
All right.

3255
03:28:41,480 --> 03:29:14,520
Bye, everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

3256
03:29:14,520 --> 03:29:15,840
Renegade podcast.