Episode # 11 Kimberly Watson Smith: The Martyrdom of Joseph & Hyrum Smith, Debunking the assertions of the "Who Killed Joseph Smith" film, & Prophetic parallels & events of the Martyrdom

0:00 On this episode of the podcast, I have a fascinating conversation with Kimberly Watson Smith. Kimberly has been the leading voice in to funking the who killed Joseph Smith movie, which purports the theory that John Taylor and Willard Richards killed Joseph and Hyrum. We not only talk about that. But we also go into what the doctrine of Christ movement is, as well as some, fascinating prophetic parallels, to the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, and that's next on the Episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast. Your listing to the Mormon, Renegade podcast, welcome back to the Mormon Renegade podcast, as always you can get ahold of me either by email at Mormon Renegade at gmail.com. You can also get a hold of me on Instagram and Twitter and getter under the handle.

1:22 Mormon Renegade. Also, Have a website up and that's Mormon Renegade.com. So go check that out. So today we've got a real special guest on Kimberly Smith has has been gracious enough to come on the podcast and talk with us a little bit and Kimberly's. Really kind of been at the Forefront of debunking. The, the movie by Justin Griffin, who killed Joseph Smith, so Kimberly. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you being here and making time for me and just fit me into your life. I know that times are In that sort of stuff. So I get it.

2:06 But milk we're having me on no problem. So real quick Kimberly. What's kind of your Mormon cred if you will? Right, I mean, when when do you as? When you first gained your testimony of the restored gospel? That is a really good question. I, I kind of feel like I have for me growing up. It was unique. And I realized that I, you know, as I've gotten older and have met other people. It's not as unique as I thought, but I grew up in a small town in Idaho, it was multi-generational member. So you know a town that was established by Mormon pioneers. And so the church was just it was really prevalent in my area and I actually grew up in a home. That while both my parents do, come from Pioneer ancestry. They were never active in the church. and so, I pretty much went to church.

3:09 I thought the church myself and went to church myself at a very young age. And I actually like to say that I was born with a testimony because I was just always drawn to the church and to the gospel. And I learned early on that. If I wanted to learn the gospel, I needed to go to church. So someone could teach me to the, go teach me the gospel, because I wasn't taught it in my home. But at the same time, I realized that that did offer me a unique experience where Every everything that I gained or everything I learned about the gospel and of the restoration had to come through like me searching it out and so I feel like at the time growing up that was I felt like a curse and a cross to bear. But as I've gotten older, I realized that that actually was a blessing in disguise because it helped me to go Oddly to the source for information meeting the scriptures and the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

4:16 So I can say that I was converted to the gospel, through the teachings of Joseph Smith, and that's really where I gave my testimony. That is so cool. So if you don't mind me asking, what town in Idaho? Not till your Idaho? Okay, right on. Now, I actually joined the LDS church when I was in that was really my first encounters with Mormonism when I was living in rural Western Idaho, we were almost to the Oregon border. We were in a little town called called parma's where I joined the church. So, you know, some things really resonated with me and, and when you said, you know, you kind of felt like it was a cross to bear to to go and search that stuff out because you had to do it on your own.

5:03 I can identify with that because being a convert to Mormonism very much the same way. I'm the only member on either side of my family, right? And so I wasn't going to get that. Anywhere else I had to dig and I kind of can can identify with you a little bit on that feeling of man. This would be easier if there was someone at home. I could talk to about this. Having said that, I look back now. and I think that's why my testimony of Joseph Smith and his prophetic calling and and Brigham Young and on down is so strong because I had to go seek their words out and in that seeking and and having to go to original sources, it leaves an indelible mark Absolutely.

5:48 Yep. That was that's been my experience as well. The other thing I think it did for me as well Kimberly is that when so I joined the LDS church in 1995 And when you know the internet was out there don't get me wrong but a lot of the anti-mormon stuff hadn't, really hit the internet yet by going and digging out those original sources. I feel like I was kind of inoculated a little bit because a lot of a lot of Mormons get ahold of the ante stuff and what it is is its little Snippets of things that you know, Pioneer prophets have said and it's taken completely out of context and so it rattles members to the core, right? Right?

6:30 I didn't have that because I had read a lot of that material in in context. I remember when I told my mother, I was going to join the LDS church. The first thing she did was sent us. Sent me down to the the parish priest in the little town. I lived in and he busted out the Journal of discourses on me. So I took that back and you know, talk to my elders and I think I accidentally freak them out as well. And finally, an old steak patriarch You ran me through it but when all this information hits, it wasn't that big of a deal to me because I'd already been exposed to it. I knew what it was and I could see that a lot of these things were taken out of context and just give a little Snippets, right? So I can identify their a lot with your story. So, it seems like you've been at the Forefront of this. This whole thing with Justin Griffin, and his hypothesis that John Taylor and Willard Richards, if I'm not mistaken under the, the direction of Brigham Young killed Joseph Smith, how did you get involved in that? Okay.

7:37 That's a really good question and it was bike. I'm sure as by divine intervention, but also by chance and believe me, this is the last thing I wanted to take on or it was the last thing I wanted to, to become involved in. So just a little bit more about my background. I do volunteer my time to the Joseph Smith Foundation. I don't know if you've Out of them. I have yeah, a great Foundation. Hannah Stoddard, huh? I go to some of the Book of Mormon evidence conferences and I always look forward to any of their presentations, right?

8:19 So what I love about, the Joseph Smith Foundation, is that it is an organization focused on supporting and contributing to projects found it. In the words of Jesus Christ, and I love their model, their motto is Vision in light of the restoration. Joseph Smith taught true, that confirms the truth taught in the Bible. He taught that a restoration of the doctrine and church, the doctrine and church established and led by Jesus Christ was necessary in the latter days. As it was in the former ages of the earth, Revelation was the rock Foundation upon which to build and so that that's kind of their Vision. So everything they do is, is an order to to either defend or to confirm the revelations. And and to make the history available to people and, you know, to not be afraid of our history because there are real facts and real data and real evidence to back up every part of the restoration.

9:19 And so that's what I just. I've just loved the Joseph Smith Foundation, I've came in contact with him. I want to say in the around 2013 and ever since then I've just volunteered my time and my research to helping with various projects and so leading up to how I got involved. So we do work with a lot of people that are going through faith crisis. And again because we understand that their real answers to every Faith crisis question. And so I want to say around, I think the around 2020 we started getting more emails about people.

9:59 Questioning if Joseph Smith really did practice polygamy. Hmm. And then first we it was kind of well no one really believes that. Right? Because I mean every historian Ian on the planet knows that Joseph Smith practice polygamy in the historical record was just you know, filled with evidence of that. So so we're just kind of You know, put those to the side thinking this isn't no one really believes that and so but then emails just started pouring in and then it was did Joseph Smith did Brigham Young really killed Joseph Smith and so I started investigating where this was coming from right because we were just baffled at first like really, this is like a thing. And so I started investigating and I noticed on social media that there was a movement To convince others that number one, Joseph Smith Never practiced polygamy and that polygamy originated with Brigham Young and he conspired. To kill Joseph Smith with the other Apostles to take over the church for power and polygamy.

11:10 And this was also during a time during, you know, covid when a lot of people were Frustrated or confused about some of the policies that were coming out from the church. And so they're so these. So the doctrine of Christ movement had infiltrated, all these LDS Facebook groups and they anybody that expressed concern or doubt about the direction, the church was going, they basically reached out to them privately. Started recruiting them to their group that they had a Facebook group, the doctrine of Christ, under the guise of just discussing the doctrine of Christ. And then as you started getting deep into their there's Umi things and their Cottage meetings. Then you know they revealed hey did you know and and by then people were you know they were kind of just hooked by the just what they're you know they were teaching the true doctrine of Christ.

12:15 There was nothing wrong with that but then it was that was under that was the guys to get them, you know, I guess, gain their confidence. And then, they sprung this new idea on them and a lot of people just bought it Hook Line & Sinker. Because Allah, I'm finding that this generation knows very little about our history, and that's very concerning to me. And so without that knowledge of History, anyone can come in and tell them what to believe and they can even use sources taken out of context and and convince them of whatever they want them to believe. And I was finding that, that was that that is what was happening. and so I just knew I needed to take that head on Because right?

12:59 Because I, it was an attack on our history. It was attack on the names and characters of the profits of the restoration. So I got a quick question for you because there's a couple things there that really jumped out at me. What, why, why are we in this position as Mormons, where our kids aren't familiar with our history? What do you think that's about? How how did that happen? Is that? That's a good question. I think that we We rely upon too much upon Scholars to teach us, right?

13:40 Right, and And so we or we don't, we don't seek it out, I feel like as far as history history goes like, I've spent a lot of time seeking out original sources and and it's like anything else in the gospel. If you want to know truth, you have to go to original sources. And and some people just they don't do that and they do they they kind of rely upon the church or historians. To tell them our church history and and unfortunately the it right. They can't. They can't tell everything, right? It's a very narrow Narrative of what we're, what we're learning. No, that makes that makes sense.

14:27 So let me ask you this, you said originally back in 2020. I think you said you were getting a lot of emails about did Joseph Smith really practice plural, marriage, do you think that that people didn't know about that for the same reason we just left it to Scholars to inform us? That Joseph Smith did or didn't practice plural, marriage or. And and when I first saw this start to happen, I was Used gent. I mean genuinely confused. I'm like how do you not know that Joseph Smith practice plural marriage. I mean it was out there so to me that seemed a little more in your face than a lot of our other history that the kids didn't know and I'm curious how it is. We Ned that this generation never really made that connection that this wasn't a Brigham Young. Invention.

15:20 So to speak being plural, marriage. Right? That's a really good question. And so, like I said, for me, it was never, you know, since I'm an active member of, you know, the church mainstream Church. For me, it was never in. It didn't come as a surprise for me because like I said, I was studying Joseph Smith, I was right, the young age and so I found that my generation and those younger than me, they weren't aware just because it wasn't being taught at church, right? And not because they're doing anything nefarious, it's just that slowly that information wasn't getting passed down, even we weren't passing it down as parents.

16:07 It's I feel like once the church stopped practicing polygamy then you know those Faith tradition stop being passed down from one generation to the next. So you come to my generation and younger there was just no talk about it, right? And so then there and then this generation is finding out for the first time through anti-mormon sources. Joseph Smith is a polygamous and of course, they make it sound. you know, they compare it to All of the bad examples of polygamy that the Warren Jeffs, you know. And, and that's what they learned for the first time and so that does lead people to Faith prices because they can't wrap their minds around.

16:53 The fact that there is You know, there is the true order of our marriage. And then there is also, we have the counterfeit which, you know, there's many people that have the practice, the counterfeit, like I'm talking about the Warren Jeffs and she don't even even people outside of Mormonism that. And so, they have this tainted view of what polygamy is when they have never seen how or read the revelations, they haven't read the stories of those who practice plural marriage. And and and so they just hear of the narrative from the wrong sources. No, I think you're 100% correct. I was an Elders Quorum president. And this came up with brother in the war that I was attending at the time where where this was a concern and we talked about it at length and it he just kept saying why didn't I know why, didn't I know why?

17:53 Didn't I know that was the thing that Coming back and I didn't have a good answer because in my Mormon experience, I'd always know, right? And so I didn't have a good answer for it and it's something that really perplex me but I think you you answered that question beautifully in terms of how that is its Because it is an uncomfortable question, right? It can be, if you haven't studied it out and I think you're right. They, they couch it in a very carnal way, right? A very, very Fallen version of it. They being the, the, you know, some of the anti-mormon sources. So, when the first Contact happens, it's never in a good way, right?

18:39 So is Tainted at some point. All right, so you start seeing this doctrine of Christ movement come up. And it's such an innocuous sounding name, right? I mean, it's, you know, the doctrine of Christ who wouldn't love to hear more about the doctrine of Christ, right? So, do you ever attend any of their Zoom meetings, or Cottage meetings or anything like that? You ever get like a front row seat to it. Right. Well actually, I kind of that was part of my see, I'm a researcher, so I do research. And so, I was researching this out like, who are they, who's leading the movement? What do they believe? And so I joined their Facebook group, but I was just watching this was in the beginning.

19:25 So I was just watching and learning their arguments. And what are they teaching? And what are they're saying? And, you know, so it's They're very crafty at what they do. Let's just, you know, it's again, like you said, they teach truth, they teach the doctrine of Christ from The Book of Mormon, and but then they have a way of resting the scriptures, right? Anyone can rest the scriptures. And so, as I'm just watching how they like their Theology, and their beliefs were evolving, I did start listening to some of their Zoom meetings. They had them recorded And and on their website and then you can join them.

20:08 Every Monday night, they have a zoom meeting where the scriptures are read and interpreted for them and I listen to a few of those and then I actually reached out to Phil Davis, who is the leader of the doctrine, of Christ group. And and I just said, hey I want to understand why so many people from your group are spreading the belief that Cat meowing is a false prophet and that he killed Joseph Smith. And so he agreed to zoom meeting. He gave me his Spiel, which it sounded like, he was teaching from a script. And what it was, he was just explaining his experience where he claims that he had an angel appeared to him in 2015. And bestowed upon him.

21:02 The Melchizedek priesthood through the hands of angels. And he tried to rest some of the scriptures and Doctrine and Covenants which I was very familiar with already because I've been watching their group and but I just let him you know give me his spill and then part of the spill was the script was that Brigham Young? Took over the church for power and polygamy. The church was rejected an Abu for failure to be able to Nauvoo Temple, which we could go on to that, he's gone that whole conversation. Mmm. And, you know, I and I was very well-versed on the documents about plural marriage, because we had just finished myself with Hannah solder and Hannah, Stoddard, and Joseph Smith Foundation.

21:52 We had just finished writing. Well, I did the research, he did the writing for, The volume one of Joseph Smith's Pro wives and it was on Helen Mark. Kimball And so I was very well. Versed in all of the documents of Joseph, Smith's four wives. And so, he's sitting there trying to tell me right? And he doesn't know this right about me. And so he's trying to tell me that all the affidavits that were signed in the late. 1800s, were all written by the same person and I was like, I've read the affidavits and and they're not, and they don't need to have trying to say they had the same handwriting, and they, the women were coerced and I'm like, there's no, there's actually no historical evidence of that.

22:36 Like don't you think if you coerced 40 women to sign a affidavits, that one of them would have written somewhere in a journal that they were coerced or they were told they had to write this Eva David and so, yeah, he he didn't know what he was getting into. I kind of feel bad looking back, but because I would feel bad, I that's awesome. I wouldn't feel bad one bit like just because I and so on once I started questioning him with and I had actual Sources and he started realizing that, I knew what I was talking about. He quickly ended the meeting whoo-hoo. Okay, so something else that jumped out at me there of those 40 women that signed affidavits. It's my understanding and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, not one of them, had a bad thing to say about Joseph, even after he died.

23:28 Nope. If you look at other movements that practice, you know, tyrannical. I don't know tactics if you will let's just look at the flds for example, right? Warren Jeffs granted. There were a lot of people that stood by him but as soon as he was no longer a threat, right when Once, he's in jail, you have a ton of people willing to tell their story, a ton of women willing to tell their story. And he's just in jail. Still exercising Authority. Now Joseph Smith is dead. So At any point those women I'm just guessing would have felt safe in saying if you know, hey, Joseph did X, Y and Z.

24:11 If that was the case, if he was, you know, That guy, right? So they could have came out against him there then Brigham. If you're afraid to bring them, bring them takes the Saints. West, right? A lot of them stay behind. They could have signed off at any point saying, hey, this isn't correct. This is wrong. So good on you for knowing your sources enough to hit him with it. I'm interested in this meeting at some point. Were you able to get a bead on Phil Davis about? Did he really believed the things that he He said, or do you think that he was? More calculated than that, right? Do you think he knew he was lying?

24:54 I this is just opinion, okay? And and this may be a little bit of a judgment but because I have listened to him multiple times. Like I said, I, you know, I randomly log onto their Zoom meetings because anyone can attend him and so far they have never kicked me off. Maybe they don't realize. It's me on there anyway. That's neither here nor there. But it's interesting he sticks to a very scripted scripted dialogue, okay? Like it never and to me that is very calculated. It never feels authentic.

25:36 It always feels like tell his story. Probably half a dozen times now and it's almost word for word, the same the same story and it feels scripted. It feels calculated and it's just I mean it's actually very bizarre story if you listen to his entire story I mean not only did an angel come to him and you know, and I believe in angels and and I actually asked him if he tested the angel because I'm a Joseph Smith, specifically taught We need to test Angels, did you test the angel? And he kind of skirted around that question. So I'm like, okay you haven't tested the angel right? And and then so it wasn't just an angel appearing to him. It was then the idea that the heavens were unsealed for the first time since the death of Joseph Smith. Meaning the heavens have been closed right. There was no Melchizedek priesthood on the earth. After the death of Joseph Smith, he is helping to re restore that it's being re restored through him. The Melchizedek priesthood.

26:51 I mean I'm like wow this is the most elaborate story I've ever heard like and his experience is just really Sensational so he also claims that not only Do they have Angels restore? The neck has increased it to him, he had an out-of-body experience. He was taken by Jesus Christ to God the Father where he was ordained by God himself. Not Jesus Christ, God, the Father. I mean, we don't even have that, Joseph Smith never even claim that, right? So, I'm just in awe, like and then he also claims that he asked to be a witness of the atonement. So Christ took him and he was able to see in third person, the atonement of Jesus Christ, but then his Spirit entered, Christ's body and he actually got to feel the Pains of the atonement.

27:52 And to me, that was the most Blasphemous thing I've ever heard in my life. Yeah, because that's the atonements predicated on the fact, especially the portion In The Garden of Gethsemane that only Christ and Christ Alone could withstand that, I agree with you that cool. Well, not only that, it's it. That's called possession. And our snow spirit is ever supposed to possess anybody's body, let alone. Jesus Christ. So right there, I'm like, you're talking about demonic possession. You're talking about out-of-body experiences, which Astral projection, which is part of the occult. So, I know right there, that his experiences. Are false, okay?

28:38 And I know their faults to on another principle because Brigham or excuse me. Joseph Smith taught in the school of the prophets and around 1832. He said, No, Angel will ever come and ordained any man wants because they have already ordained me. And they will not interfere with the priest has already been restored to this earth. So yeah. He's He's definitely on Shaky Ground, at least Shaky Ground. Um, who is Phil Davis before he started all this? Do we know what his profession was do? We know what he was like? Before he started this?

29:21 The this movement, what I know about Phil Davis, so he's 49. I think he's turning 50. He's never been married. He was, I think he owned a chocolate factory in Utah. County. So, if you Google Phil Davis, Chocolate Factory, you can probably find information about him. I don't know if he still does that. And that's actually his story is that the angel first appeared to him outside of his Chocolate Factory. Oh, and get this. I was going to say, I just immediately went to Willy Wonka. I don't know why I have a migraine work. Okay, cool. Go ahead. Sorry. This is what I find interesting too is that he said that the when the angel first came to them, it was outside of his Chocolate Factory.

30:07 He didn't know. It was an angel at first, this man had just like coming out of his eyes. Came up to him and said, do you have any money? And I'm like, okay, you don't see the irony, right? Like anyone who's been to the temple should know right there. That was a big big red flag. Those Angel literally says, do you have any money? I was like, okay you guys not getting it basically the Angels revealing to him who he is, right? Right. In the most blatant of terms, right? Right. And so I Yeah. Wow, the right from the get-go. I was like, okay, this guy, you know, I kind of actually feel bad for him because I do think he is, he's deceived, he's been deceived by a false angel of Light. And you just know that based on his fruits, right, hmm, historian is fruits without his narrative. Does not make sense unless he throws Brigham Young under the bus, unless he turns bringing young, into the villain and and John Taylor will Richards into murderers with without that belief.

31:22 Phil Davis is narrative, it just Falls, right? Because His narrative is that the church lost the Melchizedek priesthood. At the death of Joseph Smith. That Brigham Young took over the church for power and polygamy. The 12 is serp, the leadership of the church and so the church no longer has priesthood Keys, anything, and and the temple ordinances are all false to they don't believe in Temple ordinances. And so, the only way that you can get people in your movement to believe that to believe any of that or to believe that he now has milk has a previous in is if you take out Brigham Young right.

32:04 Because Brigham Young is our priesthood linked to Joseph Smith. Right. He's the, he's the linchpin that which he's attacking, right? He feels like if it's a train, if you will that's carrying the rest of the cars, right? And whether whether it's the LDS church or one of the the fundamentalist lines or I should say, most of the fundamentalist lines, they all hinge on Brigham Young. So you pull that PIN And you then have you can take it wherever you want. Does that make sense, right? And so, this does Phil Davis at all or the doctrine of Christ movement, do they at all?

32:53 Try to recast Joseph Smith In a Different Light than what sound historical. President shows us, do they try to make Joseph Smith appear different? Oh. Well, absolutely because what what people don't realize also is if you take away Brigham Young Brigham. Young is essentially he's the one that is carrying forth all of the revelations, right? He's a and he's the one that is he's basically a testator to all of the teachings of Joseph Smith, so Brigham Young. Didn't teach anything that he didn't first, learn from Joseph Smith. So you take that Brigham Young.

33:33 You take out almost all of the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and so they're Joseph Smith. They use Joseph Smith name but they do not know anything about Joseph Smith. They've rejected 90% of his teachings. And is Revelations. 90% of them including Temple ordinances baptisms for the Dead. You just almost everything they rejected. So they basically made a Joseph Smith in their own image and they claim to be followers and Defenders of the what they say is the real Joseph Smith Thanks for answering that.

34:15 The reason I asked that question is this isn't a new pattern, right? It's new in the sense of its in Mormonism now, but the pattern itself was very familiar to me. So my life is a series of inflection points and I remember one of those inflection points was, I mean a buddy. Probably. I don't know, almost 10 years after me. And my wife were married back in about. Or we decide, we're going to see a football game. I'm a huge Packers Fan. He was a huge Philadelphia Eagles fan and we go to Philadelphia to watch this Monday Night Football game. And I go into we said, you know, we're going to leave a couple days early. We're going to see the sights, this will be great and I go into Independence Hall and when I set foot in Independence Hall, I get Goose Bumps thinking about it all over again. The spirit tells me, something huge happened right here, right now, I've always been a history guy, not necessarily revolutionary period to that point. It was more Western Civ but All of a sudden. I'm like, wow, the spirit is so strong here. So I learn all I can about the founders. And as I watch my kids going to school being taught history. They don't, they are teaching a history of the founders, that is vastly different than what actual history is. And so what they did is they discredited the founders and when you start to look at why

35:47 they did that, why they discredited them there? There was a push starting clear back in the, the early 1900's where there was a group of people who want to progress past the Constitution, and the founding documents. And in order to do that, they Had to discredit the founders first. And so, when I first came upon this doctrine of Christ movement and start to see some of the things, it was a very familiar pattern. Take out the founders, so to speak and then you can rewrite it however you want. Right? And it's a very familiar pattern. They're not taking out Joseph Smith. Like they did the founders, but they are taking out the, you know, the successors Brigham Young and John Taylor and they have recast Joseph Smith in a different white where he's not the same guy, it's the same pattern.

36:40 And I would dare to say it's damn near demonic, I agree. I think it's very diabolical and I just want to add a few. Yes, I do our point to that is, okay? You think of Which teachings do we have of Jesus Christ, that came directly from Jesus Christ. Directly like he's talking to me from the hand of Jesus Christ. Kind of wish I would have to say, the closest thing that we would have would be the Doctrine and Covenants, right? Well, I meant, I'm speaking of the, of the New Testament, the New Testament. So, it's kind of a trick question, but I've asked that two people in it. I think that when you understand this, we have the team, what do we know about the life of Jesus Christ? Because it was written by the apostles, the apostles, right? So you take out the Muscles.

37:40 What left? We have? Jesus Christ. Good point. That's a grackle until so that that that's the irony, right? Is that Joe like you said, whatever they don't like about Mormonism, they can blame on Brigham Young. They make him the villain and then whatever they do like about Mormonism. They say oh yeah they attribute it to Joseph Smith. So here's the thing is that none of the teaching them Vast majority of the teachings that we have of Joseph Smith. You know, is we should the, the doctrine of covenants, obviously and you know because he's speaking he's he is the voice of Jesus Christ to this generation but the vast majority of Joseph Smith teaching has come to us through scribes, right? Rose that hurt him personally teach and then they went and they either wrote it.

38:39 In the history or they wrote it in their journals. So, you take out. So if Brigham Young and all of the Apostles, Evil you, you take away almost every teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith. That's right, because that's where that's where his teachings are coming from. And I just have a quote here, actually, a prophecy from Joseph Smith, if I can write right before, right before his death. So we know that the Prophet Joseph Smith, he commanded that. The records of the church to be kept preserved and accurately transmitted in Nauvoo had six. Scribes who worked Around the Clock. Burning candles until midnight to bring the history up to date. He also charged these scribes with the duty of updating the history after his death.

39:34 Joseph Smith recorded, he said, quote, I told Phelps, a dream that the history must go ahead before anything else. Then, Joseph said, here, let me prophesy, the time will come. When if you neglect to do this thing you will fall by the hands of unrighteous men, it's a close quote. Wow. So the history is actually very, it was very important to Joseph Smith and he had great anxiety, about making sure the history was Preserved, and then, and then kept up to date. So he has put all of his confidence in Brigham, Young in Willard Richards in William Clinton and others to preserve this history.

40:17 So you take out Willard Richards now. Right, right. You take out the history. So I just want to read this. Also this quote, from Joseph Smith about Willard Richards. He said I've been searching all my life to find a man after my own heart, whom I could trust with my business and all things and I have found him dr. Willard Richards is the man and that's found in journal history of the church. November 21st 1841, So he had complete confidence in Willard Richards. To keep the history of the church up to date.

40:58 So another tactic that the doctrine of Christ group uses is they say, look, we're going Myung revised the history of the church. He changed the history of the church. Well, if you look in the 1828 dictionary, what the word revised mean, it means to edit or to update. So what they say revised, they're saying we're gonna young change the history of the church. To make him look like the victor. And so, if we have to understand how important the history was to the Prophet Joseph Smith and who he trusted with that history. And like he said, if they didn't do this, the Saints will fall into the hands of unrighteous men. And I feel like that is being fulfilled today. If we do not study our history, we fall by the hands of unrighteous men, who will come in and pervert and distort our history and in basically interpret it according Two, however, they want to interpret it and Lead Saints away from the truth.

42:03 I couldn't agree more. I got another question. Why why is it? Do you think that the, the this group went after the more conservative members of the LDS church or, you know, the ones that that seemed the most stalwart, right? Because to me, it's almost a paradox and I'm wondering if you could shed some light I'm light on this for me. It seems like it would be counterintuitive because as I've looked at the doctrine of Christ movement, and I've kind of studied what their teachings are there. Painting a picture of a very Progressive Joseph Smith, right? And it makes like, Millennials today. I could see them really favoring this version, right? Because they're not fond of Brigham Young, right? They call them a racist, they call them. You know, a, you know what's the other word I was looking for, oh, you know, insulting to women, they paint him as just really a bad guy.

43:14 Most folks who were from the conservative end of Mormonism, didn't have those problems with Brigham Young. So how is it that they go after the conservative members and find an audience there? Yeah, that that's a really good question. That that's kind of the fun Amon on that I watched is that they were dividing the conservative movement, you know? Those, that were the Freedom Fighters that there were out protesting the masks and the vaccines. And so, I think that they, it was the perfect opportunity almost like the perfect storm with wind covid happened in the church, you know, took a very strong stance in favor of masks and vaccines And I think that those that didn't have a testimony of the restoration, that those conservative members that didn't have their own, testimony were able to be be deceived by the idea that you know, they started planning into their minds, that secret combinations of taken over the top leaders of the church and then it was, oh, but did you know, it started actually with Brigham Young. Ng.

44:30 And so they just kind of fell for the conspiracy so, so they kind of Drew them out with, you know, with this division that was happening and then in the process of being like the guys, with open arms saying, come here, you're right. Let me give you a hug, then they go ahead and they say this started way earlier and that's how they discredit Brigham Young. So maybe, so maybe, maybe these are conservative members that have been using borrowed light for a while, right? Maybe the ones who just have relied on the testimony of their parents or grandparents about the early Pioneer, prophets of Mormon dumb, so to speak. Is that a fair assessment? I think so.

45:11 And I mean, Heber C, Kimball actually did prophesy, that that was going to happen. He said the time will come when you can no longer stand on borrowed light and he said a test. A test is coming and I feel like this is a fulfillment of Prophecy that for too long. We have relied upon borrowed light. Testimony of our fathers we didn't we weren't seeking out. You know, the truth. We weren't speaking out. Our own, his our own history. Like, I absolutely love our history. I, we have nothing to be ashamed of in our history is filled with stories of Faith, courage, sacrifice the lives of. Even, I would even venture to say that you would not have a problem with the idea of plural marriage. If you just studied the women, like I said, we just finished the book on Hell Mark Kimball most people don't know. She was the 14 year old girl, right? That was married to Joseph.

46:11 Most people talk about Joseph Smith in the 14 year old without ever knowing her name and they, then they paint her as a victim. Well, Helen Mark, Kimball she was the most Ardent defender of her marriage. She wrote to pamphlets. Why we practice for marriage and what Joseph Smith taught about plural marriage? She not only that, she married horse Whitney and actually encouraged him to take on more wives because she had such a testimony The principal and that didn't come to her without sacrifice. She actually fasted for seven days before she gained her. Witness of celestial, / marriage and agreed to be sealed to the prophet when she was just 14 15, that marriage was never consummated. And so, most people don't even know that aspect and so they just, it's easy for someone like Phil Davis or Justin Griffin to come along and say the Joseph Smith, I know wasn't a The file, right?

47:11 He wasn't, he never married a 14 year old girl, because that would make him a pedophile. Will they leave out who she was? Who was the 14 year old? And the fact that the marriage was never consummated? That doesn't make Joseph Smith a pedophile, it means that he was. He entered into the higher order of celestial marriage. He was still the hell Mark Kimball and so their families will be United for eternity. So they completely A just discount, her own testimony and I just say, read the testimonies of the women read their lives. They are the second half of the restoration and and not only will you you gain a testimony of of their character but of the truth that they stood by No, I couldn't agree more.

48:03 I want to say I want to say this, right? There's no reason on this Earth at this point that a 14 year old should ever get married? Having said that it's a different world in the early to mid-1800s, right? And so historical context matters and you gave you gave a fantastic account. Historical context, right? So let's just look at Helen Mark Kimball as an example. This is somebody who even what we would consider a young age today fast for seven days. Look there's not a lot of kids today at that age who are fasting for seven days to get an answer about things, right? So they were growing up faster in those days. The other thing was again, the the marriage was never consummated.

49:00 So you look at all of that, right? You look at the totality of history and you're stretching to call. Let me rephrase that you're not stretching. You are lying. If, you know, the, the context that Joseph Smith was a Was a pedophile. It doesn't hold water. Exactly. Yep. So today as it functions. Now, what would you say is the main doctrinal thrust of the doctrine of Christ movement? What? What are they doing now? I mean, how are they different than than, than your run-of-the-mill LDS? Member your, you know, bringing might fundamentalist what what's different there other than they've taken. Anout.

49:47 Brigham. Well, they're well, they're very different. And I mean, this is a growing movement. I am just astonished. It's still growing. Oh yeah, it probably. I know they have for sure at least 900 active members, but 2,000, 2,000 believing members meaning. They believe their narrative about Brigham Young. The Joseph Smith Never practice before marriage. They denounced, like I said, Ordinances. They no longer were the temple. Garment I would say the main but their main. I think the most concerning teaching for me is that they are teaching the doctrine of reincarnation. They believe Phil Davis believes that he is lime and white reincarnated.

50:37 And that Joseph Smith has returned to the Earth. Reincarnated meaning, he's was born. Again, in a different body that he's been awakened to who he his past life was. So Phil Davis is working through this reincarnated Joseph Smith to establish a terrestrial order of the church and that they have the mechanic priesthood that nobody else on Earth has Wow. Yep. Jeez. Okay so when does Justin Griffin come on the scene then with the doctrine of Christ.

51:19 So for my understanding so Joseph, Justin Griffin was an admin of the doctrine of Christ just Facebook group and and you know he tried to he tries to separate his movie from the doctrine of Christ movement but you Separate them. Because like I said, the doctrine of Christ movement is based on the idea that Brigham Young is not the rightful successor and doesn't have keys and doesn't have authority. And actually, Justin Griffin before who killed Joseph Smith, he actually helped to release and produce. Phil Davis has movie, The Return of Joseph Smith, where It's on YouTube, you can find it, it's like 30 minutes long, it's called The Return of Joseph Smith.

52:07 So feel Dave, Justin Griffin help Phil Davis to, I don't know if he helped them to produce it, but they did show it in a theater with had invited audience. I'm Justin Griffin is on there. What is it called there the movie. The movie who killed Joseph Smith. Yeah. And so it's basically no on the return of Joseph. Oh, I haven't seen that one with Phil Davis, so he helps the latest release this movie where he goes through. Basically his Narrative of how the church lost the priesthood.

52:47 The the Jesus Christ form of the name, from the church that, you know, the Brigham Young is in a posture of serp, the authority. That's what it was about. So before Justin Griffin was involved in who killed Joseph Smith, he was involved in that so you can't separate them. Even though he tries really hard not to associate his movie, with the doctrine of Christ move it. They're one in the same is what I'm saying. So even if even at the movie premiere, it premiered, January 13th, 2020, 2022, and someone attended. And they did report back to me and said that Justin Griffin at the premiere. So they show this movie, they the, in a theater, they rented a theater.

53:32 We had to buy a ticket, then they held a Q&A. After he said, the Justin Griffin was mocking the temple garment They were accusing Brigham, Young of being a false prophet and Mastermind behind Joseph Smith and Hiram's murder and whose motive they claimed was wealth power and women and that all this would come out in the sequel in the who could Joseph Smith part two. So they are planning a part 2 and this was at the premiere. So this is what they were alleging at the premiere and they declared that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was the mother of harlots spoken of in Scripture. And the keys and the president and the power and authority never traveled west of the Mississippi. So, wow, once again, you can't, he tries hard to separate himself, like this movie had nothing to do with that movement, and he just wanted to find out the truth about Carthage that, that's what he alleges. But Jeez.

54:35 I think he's being very dishonest and misleading when he claims that he he just wants the truth. I don't think he wants the truth. I think that he's pushing a narrative and he's using The power of media. Right. And sensationalism to entrap people into this narrative. And again, who are drawn to it, those that don't know our history, right, studied Brigham, Young haven't studied the revelations. Those are the people that are easily deceived duped, whatever you want to call it with this narrative. I agree.

55:17 I agree 110% with you. I I still look, you know, keep tabs on Mormon Twitter if you will. Right. I just look and I Of just up the hill from Brigham Young University and it's just not this. It seems like almost every bit of our history is under attack, right? It doesn't matter what it is. I just finished the podcast last night where we were. We felt like we did a good job of showing the difference between the United order and law of Consecration and communism and socialism, because I see a lot of tweets and a lot of kids coming.

55:58 In out now, saying really, this is just socialism with the religious bent, right? It's horrifying. It's a horror show. And I'm like, no, no. That's different and I think this, this is just one more example, like you were saying of, maybe adults and kids, who don't have a good handle on what our history is and how easy it is for them to be given a different narrative, especially if it fits within the context today of, whoa. ISM progressivism, and the whole thing we saw progressivism come for our, you know, the founding fathers in our founding documents and now they're coming from Mormonism.

56:39 It's in their, in their crosshairs. And I'm not saying that they're working together. I'm just saying that the adversary is very good about drawing together his armies to go do this. So well this may be of interest to your to your listeners. I don't know. So one of the books that the Joseph Smith Foundation role actually it was a two-part series, it's called Faith crisis and they actually go through and show how there is an attentional Progressive rewriting of our history and that's what's coming out of BYU's this new Progressive, Mormon history. That was it's basically, you know, Scholars, who Who don't really also have a strong faith in our foundation of the church. And they've, they've Rewritten our history from, pretty much a progressive angle.

57:34 And so it's just fascinating. When you, when you read, what what happened and and just understanding that this was an intentional effort to rewrite our history so that they could change the doctrine. Leonard Arrington was, you know, the historian in the mid-1900s. And he, that's one of his quotes. As if we can change the history, we can change the doctrine and they wanted to get rid of a lot of, a lot of the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that, you know, they want to change some of the doctrine of covenants, they want to get rid of section. 132, they want to get rid of You know, the patriarchal order and all of those things. And so they knew they could do it by rewriting or history and so Faith crisis wanted to adjust their phenomenal books. They actually it was based on Leonard Arrington zones, Diaries, and writings and what he revealed in those diaries about what he was doing and why, and how they were going to train up the next generation of Scholars, and historians with this Progressive new Mormon history. And so, you know, it's really A lot of members coming out of BYU who are being taught, this new Mormon history, if you're being taught this Progressive scholarship, but it's also affecting, you know, every branch of Mormonism. Hmm, right?

58:59 And, and I would say that Richard Bushman, he's one of the most prolific Progressive historians of our time. Who wrote the book? Rough Stone Rolling. Yep. That completely. He completely re remakes Joseph Smith into In a cultic treasure treasure Seeker. Lazy basically a bumbling idiot. But when you understand where those sources and are coming from and the purpose for rewriting the history, then you just throw it out and, you know, this is not the Joseph Smith. That's in the scriptures. This is not the Joseph Smith that has been prophesied in scriptures.

59:42 This is not the Joseph Smith that all of his closest friends and Associates testified of his name and his character. It's just a completely Rewritten history. So, I just wanted people to be aware of that and that I do encourage people to read, go to Joseph, Smith foundation.org. You know, get their books, the faith crisis books and and just arm yourself with that knowledge and information about what's happening to our history. So that when you you're confronted with these ideas, these Progressive ideas about history that you can, you can combat him and you can you help your children to see the attacks on our history?

1:00:23 I, I read those books and Hannah did a great job. I mean, Solid documented solid. I don't see how you can't read those books and walk away. And And and not know exactly what's going on now. And, and the scary part is, it's one thing to read about it. Academically, it's another thing, when you see it, right? It's another thing, when you're like, oh crap, they're making, they're making actual Headway, right? It's not like this was just something that was thought of. They put these plans into practice, right? And so, and how that ties into the this doctrine of Christ movement is because I feel like that, they then they could take advantage of that, right?

1:01:11 They can say look, the church has Changed History. So we can't believe what the church says. We can't believe our history. Right? And so they've taken advantage of that and sadly, again, people that that are unversed in an original sources that haven't taken the time to study study those, they have fallen prey and it's very unfortunate. Well, and I think that's why the work that you're doing and that Hannah's doing with the, the Joseph Smith Foundation is so vital because it's really leading the charge against this, right? It's really really coming out strong against it.

1:01:54 So next we talked about maybe going over some of the critical events leading up to Carthage. Hmm. And I think that's a good place to go next because we've kind of diagnosed what the problem is, right? With with, you know, the doctrine of Christ movement with Justin Griffin, with, with Phil Davis and the progressive rewrite of Mormon history. So now I think it is this would be a good time where Talk about what actually happened and those times leading up to Carthage, okay? So I this won't be this won't be comprehensive, right? Because you don't have your head out 10 hours. I mean, there's so leading everything about the martyrdom.

1:02:37 If we really want to understand the martyrdom, we'd have to actually go back to Kirtland. Well, I'm not going to do that. Obviously, there's not enough time. I do want to just highlight the main points. I think, if people just understood these points about the events leading up to martyrdom, Mmm, what happened, then you understand what happened at Carthage and then even the events after including the trial, I just think that this those facts alone just blows Justin Griffin's Theory out of the water, it puts the nail in the coffin and what's interesting is that Justin Griffin is on record saying, he doesn't know very much about what happened before and what happened after. So he is not giving his viewers his It's a complete picture of Carthage.

1:03:23 She's only taking You know, this conspiracy inside of Carthage gel and presenting that as as factual. And so, we have to understand that history cannot be taken out of context and I almost want to compare it to a puzzle, right? You, you can as you're putting a puzzle together, you kind of think you see the picture of how it's going to end up. But then, you know, if you only have a few pieces, but as you start to put all the pieces together, the picture completely changes. Right? So we have to understand what happened before I haven't during what happened after. So that's just a brief segue and I just want to go over a few, a few points.

1:04:10 So number one, we have to understand. I think this is critical. We have to know that the Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied of his death. And not only did he prophesy of his of his upcoming death, but he said that he could not die until he fully established the kingdom of God on Earth. He said in August 1842, Joseph Smith said my feelings at the present time are that inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, he will continue to preserve me by the United Faith and prayers of the Saints until I have fully. Published my mission in this life and so firmly established the dispensation of the fullness of the priesthood in the last days that all the powers of Earth and hell can never Prevail against it, that's in the history of the church Volume 5 Pages, 139 through 140.

1:05:09 And why that's so critical to understand is because that is part of the doctrine of Christ narrative. Is that Joseph Smith, died prematurely before everything was established, therefore we need a return of Joseph Smith through. Phil Davis to establish what he couldn't do. That is that is such an important point because what I'm finding with and I need to qualify this, right? What I'm finding with a lot of Groups like the doctrine of Christ or the progressive end of Mormonism. Is that they're like no, no. The the the restoration is ongoing and in a sense, they're correct right there. If we're in Mormonism, we should expect. T', fresh Revelation, right?

1:06:00 Right. But it shouldn't contradict what has come already. Exactly. And and the authority part is very key to understanding all of this. And so if these groups can paint the picture of, hey, the the restoration was incomplete so to speak again, you now have a blank slate in which you can draw anything on it. You want. Exactly. And that's what they're doing. And so, You know, we have to have by the mouth of two or three Witnesses so he's that first coat was 1942 in October 1843. So a year later he's the Prophet Joseph Smith said again I defy all the world to destroy the work of God and I prophesy they will never have power to kill me to my work as accomplish and I'm ready to die history of the church volume 6 page 58 and that was from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on October 15th, 1843 in Nauvoo, Illinois. so, Right Joseph Smith, he's saying when his work has till his worst complete, they will never have power to kill him.

1:07:07 And I feel like that is even a parallel to Jesus Christ. Yeah, they did not have the power to kill Jesus Christ until Jesus Christ. Said, it is finished. So servants typify, Jesus Christ and I feel like his his mission and his life and his death is a type and Shadow of Jesus Christ. It's a testimony of Jesus Christ, even his death. Okay, so just moving on and and and so we know that, you know, Anybody who knows anything about the church, right? We know that Nauvoo is it's one of the most prosperous cities in Illinois. It's bigger than Chicago at one point, right? It was the, but it was, it was the biggest and the most prosperous.

1:08:02 And so you have people coming to Nauvoo with ill intent, right? They want to capitalize on this Prosperity. There they are trying to You know, you have Bootleggers all these different villains that come to Nauvoo, wanting basically a piece of the pie without being a member of the church. They want their prosperity, they want their wealth and so you have. So there were just enemies among the saints. There are people that would join the church, just so they would have an influence. So anyway, so we know we have all this going on, it's just important again to get the overall picture of what Joseph Smith was up against, right?

1:08:49 So not only that we have Joseph Smith who was, who is, and then he's running for president. So, there was this threat, right? Oh, Joseph Smith is, he's the mayor of Nauvoo. He's the leader of the of the novel Legion. Now, he wants to be president and, you know, he's taking our political Are so we already know that the you know, the powers that be the government is concerned about Joseph Smith's influence, not just religiously but mostly politically and of course then you have the religious leaders that are then saying. Oh but you know, he has religious power to. So Joseph Smith is a threat to multiple different people.

1:09:31 Not just the apostates. So not only that you have the apostates You have the government that's against them. And then you have religious leaders and they all want Joseph Smith dead, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I would say this resembles very much, there's Echoes of Christ's life here, right? Because if you look at, wait, what's happening with Jesus, in his time? Pardon the expression, he's pissing everybody off, right? It's not just the Pharisees, it's not just the Sadducees, but it's Rome as well, right? I mean, he's not making a ton of friends and Get the feeling that in the Nauvoo period. Joseph Smith is in the very same boat.

1:10:12 Nobody likes it right. Except those who are following following his teachings, right? So, so, this is important just leading up to kind of, like the crisis moment, right, in that view. So not only that is, you have him introducing secret doctrines, right, private doctrines, right Council of 50 and and where he is actually Really in in Nauvoo, he's crowned king of Israel. And so this is really where William law starts to turn on Joseph Smith. Not only does he completely What is the word? The eighth?

1:10:55 He hates polygamy. William. Ah, but then he is He's up in arms about the fact that Joseph Smith has now, just been crowned king of Israel. I don't know if you're aware of that actually. Yeah, in fact just last night part of the podcast we did last night was the Council of 50. So, yeah, this is, this is great this to write right in, right? And so again, we see a parallel with the Life of Christ, right? He comes and he declared himself the king of Jews and then, you know, he's going to take over the political structure in Jerusalem. But then, you know, he's also the, you know, as a king and so, so William laws looking at this. He's like, okay and he writes in his journal about Joseph Smith and his secret doctrines and he so he's basically just angry at Joseph Smith.

1:11:46 And and I think polygamy was the last straw when he was he was introduced to polygamy by Hyrum Smith in. I had a council meeting in Nauvoo. And so you have William law who obviously turns apostate, right? I mean, we all know William everyone knows the story of William law. He turns apostate and but I don't know if everyone is aware of the Blood Oath. And the the secret meeting of conspiracy. No, tell us about that. And so there are I just think that there are these two unsung heroes of this novel, period.

1:12:28 And there are two young men named Dennison, L Harris, and Robert Scott. And they are in the spring of 1844. Joseph Smith was alerted by these two young, men of the secret movement, to take both of the life and the lives of the life of Joseph Smith, and the lives of several other Leading Men in the church including Hyrum Smith. They had been personally invited to the secret meetings by these conspirators, so they're just young kids. I can't remember their ages. I want to say 15 and 16. Okay. And so they go to Joseph Smith and they said, hey, we've been invited to this meeting the secret meetings. And Joseph Smith said, well, I want you to attend And so and he tells them you know you you're risking your life by doing this but I want you to attend and so they knew that they would be risking their lives and so they attended three of these meeting is as spies and so each time they would bring back to Joseph Smith a report of what they had witnessed.

1:13:32 And then at the last meeting they Recounted. The requirement that everyone present at the meeting had to take a Blood Oath to be willing to take the life of the Prophet Joseph Smith. And so because they are this meeting, you know, Josie they could go back to Joseph Smith and said, but everybody there is required to take this blood off. And Joseph Smith said, you know, if you, if you don't attend the meeting the next meeting, you know, it's got an alert to something suspicious, so you need to go but just don't take the oath. And so again, they're risking their life, their lives and so they go to this meeting where the, where they witnessed these blood is being taken.

1:14:17 Mhm. And then when the time comes for them to take the blood off, they basically refused. And there they were taken down to The Cellar to be shot and and probably by, you know, divine intervention, one of the men says says well, if we kill him then, You know, their fathers will come looking for him and then we'll be found out. So we need to let him go but they basically took them out by the banks of the of the Mississippi River and said we're going to let you go but if you tell anybody will kill you and your family and Joseph Smith was actually hiding in the banks of this, Mississippi River and heard everything. Wow. And, and he was in tears knowing that You know, that these young men, they risk their lives for him. And and so later they sign affidavits and affidavits about the names of these, the leaders in this plot and they were Chauncey L, higbee, already Foster Joseph, 8, Jackson, and William, and Wilson law.

1:15:24 So, and I bring that up because for tooth, for a number of reasons is first, we have a, we have the conspiracy of who the conspirators were right. We know there is soundly documented in our history, we have witnesses. If Brigham Young John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of a conspiracy? Where is the evidence? Yeah, why don't we have any account from anybody ever saying anything? yeah, it is, it blows my mind and how Yeah, I just go to if this was Brigham heeded, done something to make sure that he steps forward as being more prominent than Joseph and he never does.

1:16:13 And if I'm not mistaken on Brigham's deathbed, his final words is Joseph repeated three times, right? You wouldn't get the quote, you know, I feel like shouting, Hallelujah. Every time I stop to think and remember that I knew Joseph Smith. Exactly. On the other hand, we have this document, these two young men, who risked everything, we have their sworn affidavits, and we know, William, Wu apostatized, right? That that's not. There's, there's nothing there to suggest otherwise It just it, it's maddening when you look at the preponderance of evidence.

1:16:57 And yet, there are still folks that fall for the for this. I'm sorry. Yeah. And so to me, that's just me if we're thinking about this fragile rationally and logically, right? Again, we we have evidence of who the conspirators were. There's no. So, Brigham Young essentially would have had Full a lot of people and there's no record anywhere of him saying anything anywhere or no and even alleging that he said anything about killing, right? There's no, if I'm not, if I'm not mistaken Brigham's overseas, right? So if he has to give an order, it's going to have to come by letter.

1:17:41 And maybe even tell it, I'm not sure, Telegraph, even existed. Then I'm not sure I'm not going to say that, but there have been documentation somewhere because he would have had to have written the order, right? And, and then I would just, I know we all know about the Nauvoo Expositor there. You know, the heat William that William. All wrote the novel Expositor. There's only one publication. Before it was destroyed, I think that in itself is a pretty good source. If you haven't taken the chance to read what he wrote, the novel Expositor, I encourage your listeners to do so because it's pretty telling about, you know what, William law. What he was accusing Joseph Smith of and again he was accusing himself of polygamy.

1:18:32 So right there is proof that he was practicing polygamy, because William law was charging him with polygamy, and then he was charging him with claiming to be the king of Israel, and a God to this generation. So, again, tying that back into why was Joseph Smith? What was the conspiracy against Joseph Smith? It was because the same reasons that This Christ was crucified was threatening the political and the religious structure of the day. Wow. And so I think that's just an important source and then we know that Joseph Smith orders, the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor right which incites the mob. And I did want to read also a prophecy that Joseph Smith gave of of why he ordered the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor and I Think this is important, and I do want to read this because I've actually read the modern interpretation of the reason why Joseph Smith basically saying if Joseph Smith, hadn't ordered, the destruction of the Novack, some Expositor that he never would have died. So, they kind of blame Joseph Smith for his own death. But actually Joseph Smith was actually trying to save the lives of the Saints.

1:19:52 When he ordered the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor because George lob. He reported in his journal that Joseph called a meeting at his own house and told us that God showed to him in an open Vision, in daylight that if he did, not destroy that printing, press that it would cause the blood of the Saints to flow in the streets. And by this was that evil does. Asteroid and speaking of those who returned to report that they had destroyed the press and other materials as ordered by the city council Joseph Smith recorded, I told them they had done right and not a hair of their heads would be hurt for it.

1:20:34 Which which again, he's seen his followers, right? He's seen the early members already shed, blood haun's Mill. All the stuff that happens in Missouri, the persecutions. And this time, they're you get the sense that this is different in Nabu now. Right? Right. And so know that that makes sense on why he would have done that. Right. And so it right again, so it's another, you know, Joseph Smith his death, it just when I think of Justin Griffin's movie and what really angers me most about it is I just feel like it makes a mockery of Joseph Smith death.

1:21:19 And so understanding that Joseph Smith was actually trying to save the life of his Saints. This is, you know, this is who he was, this is his character and so with that, the destruction of the now, Do Expositor obviously incited the mobs to violence. As we know William law then worked with Thomas Sharpe. And they publish stuff in the Warsaw single signal. It gets the Saints which also incited not only the not only mobs in Illinois, but now is incited the mobs in Missouri that were still had revenge in their hearts against the Saints. And so Thomas Sharpe the editor of the Warsaw signal wrote We hold ourselves at all times and Readiness to cooperate with our fellow citizens to exterminate.

1:22:12 Eight, utterly exterminate the wicked and abominable Mormon leaders. He even called, for an attack on Abu declaring strike them for the time has fully come true. So right? Yeah. So after that Joseph Smith, he declares martial law and he called on the novel Legion, to protect the city and then while he was preparing to defend the city of Nauvoo, the prophet received a letter from the governor for charging the city council and the mayor with gross misuse of their civil Powers. After reading the governor's letter, Joseph stated that there was no mercy here venting his feelings further.

1:22:55 The prophet said, I told Stephen Markham that if I had, if I am Hiram were ever taken. Again, we would be massacred or I was not a prophet of God, I won't hire him to avenge my blood, but he's determined not to leave me. So right there, he's prophesying. It was death, he knows, it's good. He knows it's coming, right? So he not only that, he's saying if I'm not Massacre that, I'm not a prophet of God and hoozy prophesying is going to Martyr him. He's probably he's telling us, the mobs are going to kill me. The state of Illinois is going to kill me, right? He says, if not, I'm not a prophet of God.

1:23:38 So even there the movie who could those are Smith is calling into question. Joseph Smith prophetic Mission and his prophetic ability. Yeah, that's a great Point, Kimberly. So let me ask you this in this time leading up where Joseph feels like, you know, my times coming. It's short, is he doing anything to prepare? The apostles that are there to kind of get them ready to to carry the work forward. Oh yes, absolutely. I'm just a second.

1:24:29 Okay, so we'll we know that. If you study the life of Jesus Christ, right? What was he doing to prepare? His Apostles in the go ahead? Sorry, I was about to cut you off. I don't want to do that, okay? If you had something to say go ahead, I was going to say he was, he was preparing his Apostles, right? And you can see he's been doing it his whole ministry, right? He tells Peter, this is your The Rock upon which I will build my church. He and, and in those final moments, you know, you have the The Last Supper where he keeps it tells everybody, you know, this is going to happen and then you know he basically gives them charge keep going.

1:25:17 Right. And so if you really study that account which I think is it really fascinating? You have Jesus Christ. He's washing the feet of his Apostles which is actually a temple ordinance. Hmm. And then there in John chapter 20, there's I don't have my scriptures in front of me but he basically says that he was giving them the signs which in Hebrew translates to tell guns. Mmm. So this is all in the upper room in the upper room right laughter in the upper room and so another you know compelling parallel. Is that Joseph Smith. He's also preparing his Apostles in the upper room of the red book store Right, right?

1:26:01 So you have Joseph Smith on May 4th and 5th of 1842. He calls nine of the most faithfuls brevis bread into his side. And there he presents the sacred ceremonies and instructions known as the endowment, including the washing, the anointing, keywords signs and tokens. And that's in the upper room of his Mercantile store Nauvoo Illinois. And these Brethren were Hyrum Smith. Brigham Young Heber C Kimball Willard Richards, William Marks, William law, George Miller know, Kate Whitney and James Adams. And then he said, as he revealed revealing the words purposes in a mystery in in administering these ordinances the Prophet Joseph Smith declared it is not the will of the Lord that I should live and they must give you here in this upper room.

1:26:50 All the Glorious plans and principles whereby men are entitled to the fullness of the priesthood. And then he later wrote in his journal, I spend the upper day. A upper part of the store that is in my private office in Council with General James Adams of Springfield patriarch. Ironsmith Bishops no. K Whitney and George Miller and president Brigham Young and Elders Heber C, Kimball and Willard Richards. Instructing them in the principles and Orders of the priesthood attending to Washings anointings endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Raonic priesthood. And so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek priesthood, So he's doing the exact same thing that Christ did exactly giving them everything they would need to continue the work forward to make sure that it can fulfill. Its prophetic Destiny, right?

1:27:41 And so he's not only instructing them in the temple endowment, but he's also giving them Keys, George Miller, also recorded that he Joseph washed and anointed them Kings and Priests to God over the house of Israel. And he later gave, he also gave Brigham Young, the stealing power. So And Joseph Smith later wrote brother, and I have conferred upon you now, every key and principal and power that has bestowed upon me. Now, you must round up your shoulders and bear off the kingdom or you will be damned So he make sure that that work is completely finished.

1:28:25 The work of transferring, the the authority and those rights of the Kingdom to the 12. To make sure that there's no doubts that this work will go for it. And I find it interesting that despite what Davis and Griffin want to say Brigham Young is front and center first and foremost in those things, right? And It soundly documented first and foremost that he did receive keys that he did receiving the sealing power, the power of Elijah, the Joseph Smith had received in 1836 and that he gave them the power and authority. To Bear off the kingdom.

1:29:09 Not just leave the church to, but to Bear off the kingdom, because we have to remember that Joseph Smith was establishing the kingdom of God separate and apart from the church. That's right. So he not so Brigham Young, you know, if I ate just in defense of Brigham Young for a minute, We can look to the revelations. Doctor covenants. 107 were God. Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith. Clearly lays out that the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles are equal in authority to the first presidency as far as the church is concerned. So Brigham Young as the president of the Quorum. He absolutely had a right to lead the church, but it wasn't just his position as the president of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles that gave him that, right? It was actually his position in the In the Council of 50, right? Has, he was anointed.

1:30:02 King priest and prophet. In addition, in the Council of 52, bear off, not just not just to leave the church, but to Bear off the kingdom of God. Right. Right. And I think I think sometimes going back to we don't sometimes we don't know our own history when Brigham comes out west. He's not simply here for a church right? He's here for a political Kingdom, right? And I think it's sad that we've lost sight of that. So we don't know what we're doing when we when we talk about about Brigham Young, we don't know what we're doing. No, no, we don't and I find it interesting that the prophet calls him on a mission to go overseas. Before his passing, it makes me wonder if he was. Like if Brigham's here, they're going to take him out next because law would have known that Brigham was next in succession, right?

1:31:03 Right. And so I often wonder that if if he'd have been there if he wouldn't have been a Target as well and he probably could not have got Brigham out of the jail with, with Joseph. I imagine he would have been like, no, I'm going to be right there with you. Right. There's actually a quote Young and I I don't have it. I just remembered it as you're talking about that will Brigham. Young said had myself from the Twin in the apostles been here, they never would have taken him to Carthage. We wouldn't have let them so we know I think there was a reason why they were on missions and and so so we know, right? Joseph Smith is preparing the people for his death, he's prophesying of his death.

1:31:48 He's he's bestowing the keys. He's giving them instructions to carry on. To carry on his mission to, to finish the temple to to do all of these important, his important work, right? And so now we have Joseph Smith is being charged with treason for destroying the Nauvoo Expositor and that he's going to be brought for trial. And and for declaring martial law, and I think it's important that Steven Markham, who will Who was also a visitor with You Stephen Markham and Dan Jones were also in Carthage with Joseph Smith and till the day of their death.

1:32:29 Most people don't don't know that and so we can go to Stephen Markham who is an important historical Source on what happens at Carthage and leading up to Carthage. And that he wrote that on the afternoon of June 26th, there was an anti-mormon meeting at the Hamilton Hotel. And he said, quote, it was proposed that if Illinois and Missouri would join forces to kill the Mormon leader. They would not be brought to justice for it. There were delegates at the meeting from every state of the union except for three. The next day, a few hours before the attack on the Jill Marcum was forced to leave Carthage Carthage at Bayonet Point. Wow.

1:33:12 Yeah, so so the conspiracy just got bigger, right? It's not just William law, conspiring with the state of Illinois. Now it's Illinois and Missouri, conspiring with all of the states in the union except for three saying if the deed is done and we killed Joseph Smith, no one's going to be brought to justice for it and they have the power to make that happen. I want to make sure I heard you right every state in the Union except three. Yes. I hear you correctly. Yes, because that's a new one on me. So tell me the three states that weren't involved. That's a good question. This is from Steven Markham and unfortunately he didn't say which three states.

1:33:52 Okay. Wow. I'm not sure on that. I wish we would have known that. That that that pain. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around that, right? You have one guy, one guy who the majority of the Union Sees, as such a threat. That they have to take him out and they're willing to swear Blood Oath by it. Right? That's, that's the other thing. Do we not see The Echoes, my mind goes back. When I hear all this, it goes back to the account of Cain when he kills Abel and he takes those covenants, right? He makes promises and he's given the title of Master Mahan and and everything else.

1:34:46 And I have nothing to back this up with other than just, I feel it in my very soul that I'm sure those are some of the same covenants that those men took right, this? This feels like ancient evil again. Right. Exactly. And and I also did want to, you know, illustrate the violent nature of the threats against Joseph Smith because you know we the way that Justin Griffin portrays. It he just portrays this mob as docile who were scared off by a few bullets a few right gunshots from a pistol.

1:35:31 And so I just Again, illustrate just the violent nature of the threats against Hills of. So as he's being brought to Carthage, these are the threats. So there's a mob that had formed right outside of Carthage. He, he first is staying in the Hamilton hotel and then he has to go from the Hamilton hotel to, to the courthouse. And eventually they're saying, well, he's not safe in the hotel. We got to take him to the jail. And this massive mob has formed and these are some of the threats. So on June 24th. 1844 at midnight when Joseph entered Carthage and militia company. The Carthage Graves encamped on the Public Square gave threats as Joseph passed.

1:36:14 They said, quote, where's the damn profit stand away, and let us shoot the damn Mormons. And then once said, DOD. Damn, you old? Joe we've got you now, clear the way and let us have a view of Joe Smith. The prophet of God, he has seen the last of Nauvoo. We will use him up. Now continuing the profanity abuse and violent threats. The crowd followed Joseph and Company from the Public Square to the Hamilton house yelling and cursing and acting like ravenous beasts hungry for their prey, on June 25th, 1844 or Joseph and other members of the novice City. Little under arrest for destroying. The Expositor press were taken before our F Smith justice of the peace and also captain of the Carthage graze by 8 p.m. that same evening evening, Constable Betty worth appeared at their lodgings at the Hamilton house and insisted, they're going to jail as Joseph and Company were taken from the Hamilton house with Captain done. And some 20 men to guard Joseph, a drunken rabble had collected in the streets.

1:37:21 Several times, broke through the And threatened violence against Joseph Joseph. Hiram Dan Jones, Stephen Markham John, a former John Taylor and Willard Richards, past the night of the 25th in Carthage Jail. And then on June 26th, 1844 Joseph spent the morning in a lengthy interview with Governor Ford. The prophet told Governor Ford that he had considered himself unsafe in Carthage. As the town was swarming with man, who had openly sworn to take his life. And this is another important part of the of the narrative. It's says by the afternoon on the 26th, Frank whirl appeared before the jail in command of the Carthage straight Greys and demanded the prisoners be delivered up to the Constable for trial.

1:38:10 The Jailer refused to surrender, Joseph, and Hyrum until discharged by due course of Law and not by the demand of the military despot, but the threats and T intimidation whirl compelled the gel or against his conviction conviction to surrender. The prisoners to him a mob gathered at the jail and resumed their threats of violence and they unlawfully, and illegally dragged, the prisoners out and expose them to imminent danger among the worst enemies. And so, I mean, this was what they were dealing with it Carthage. Russia is the threat after threat. They were constantly trying to drag him out of the gel for an opportunity to shoot him.

1:38:56 You know, the jailers their guards were were scared off. Right. Oh, by the way, the the local militia. Yeah, so I mean it paints a pretty different picture. When again, we have to put history into its context, right? We have to know what's leading up to up to Carthage and and to understand, you know, who is behind the death of Joseph Smith. And so I thought a lot about, you know, their narrative and and I keep, you know, to myself I'm just thinking If true which it's not. But if true Willard Richards and Dog Taylor are the luckiest criminals in history of the world. Yeah, not only do they end up supposedly committing the murders but then The mob takes credit for it and they just get off scot-free.

1:39:55 Like does that make any rational sense? No. And there's there's so much wrong with Griffin's account of what happened in that room, right? Hmm. Let's just look at the room and I'm going to say something that's Is, it's kind of, I don't know, right up my alley. I watch a lot of MMA, right. I'm a big fan of the sport and I'm going somewhere with this. John Taylor was not. An extremely large man, right? I think he was just under six foot. We know both the Smith boys were big guys and they were athletic. Hmm.

1:40:38 So in Griffin's account, you have Hiram, who fires a shot and shoots Taylor in the leg Taylor wounded and smaller somehow, Manages to get around Hiram and fire the shot. That kills it. That's not happening when I saw that and I watched the movie three times because I wanted to make sure I was getting as much as I could. And my first thought is Griffin's never been in a fight. There's no way that's happening. S Joseph burst through the door and rather than go to his brother. He just makes the assumption that Taylor shot him and start shooting him. There is so much wrong with this, and there's no context. Like, you were saying, right?

1:41:27 You have to ignore the context of Happened inside the building. Then you have to ignore the context of what happened. You have to ignore the context of blood owes, those blood Oaths, you have to ignore the context of the mobs, you have to ignore, all to come up with this. Right? And, and then you have to also ignore Joseph Smith's on prophecies and this is another Port prophecy. He gave two days before martyrdom, so he's in he's in Carthage June 25th, 1844 and several of the officers of the troops in Carthage and other gentlemen are curious to see the profit.

1:42:07 They visit him in the room, Joseph in the room and general Smith asked, Joseph if there is anything colonel-general so General Excuse me, that's Joseph Smith. He asked the officers. If there is anything in his appearance, the indicated he was the desperate character, his enemies represented him to be and he asked them to give him their honest. Opinion on the subject. The reply was no, sir. Your parents would indicate to the very contrary General Smith but we cannot see what is in your heart. Neither can we tell what are your intentions to which Joseph replied very true? Didn't Woman, you cannot see what is in my heart and you are therefore unable to judge me or my intentions but I can see what is in your hearts and I will tell you what I see.

1:42:55 I can see that you thirst for blood and nothing but my blood will satisfy you. It is not for Crime of any description that I and my brethren arth us continually persecuted and harassed by our enemies. But there are other motives and some of them I have expressed so far as relates to myself. And in, as much as you and the people thirst for blood, I prophesy in the name of the Lord that you shall witness scenes of blood and sorrow sorrow to your entire satisfaction. Your souls shall be perfectly, safe, shaded with blood. And many of you who are now present shall have an opportunity to face the Cannons mouth from sources, you think NADA.

1:43:36 And those people that desire, this great evil upon me and my brethren shall be filled with regret and sorrow because of the scenes of desolation and distress that awaits them. They I shall seek for peace and shall not be able to find it gentlemen. You will find what I have told you to be truth and that's in the doctrinal history of the church volume 6 page 566 and I wanted to point out important point, right? Joseph Smith is prophesying number one. I know what's in your heart. I know you're after my after my life that you thirst for my blood and he's and then he prophesized will, you will have And then he prophesized, basically, this is another Prophecy of the Civil War because we know right.

1:44:22 Right. That that was fulfilled. And so my question then is if he could prophesy the hearts of these men, But not John Taylor Willard Richards. Yeah, so he knew he didn't know that they were also thirsting for his blood, right? It doesn't make any sense unless you unless you are saying that Joseph Smith is a false prophet. Right right and and and that's the other thing Griffin doesn't know favors to Joseph in his documentary. He paints him. he paints him as not being able to see it coming, right? If, if Taylor and Willard's are behind it, he paints him as somebody who who is caught off guard and shocked by this and it just doesn't hold water.

1:45:15 Right. Yep. Yeah, that it's just amazing to me like when I every time I watch that scene of Joseph Smith, he how they portray him. He comes back in the room and he almost looked like, he's like surprised really. He's kind of like this unaware, idiot. The didn't know that, you know, the his that will Richard and John Taylor were going to assassinate him and it just, again, it calls into question, his prophetic. Mantle. Yeah, we was and and just the fact that he's prophesying up into this point of his death, and he was going to kill him. So wow. And so that's very convenient of Justin's people to, you know, to narrate his, his documentary around. I just want to know what happened in the two to three minutes and Carthage, right?

1:46:10 Because when you leave out what's leading up and and no one right knows all those details, then it's easily to convince. Three motion and sensationalism that this was a possibility. Right? Yeah, I after I watched the movie the first time, I have a good friend who came to work for me years and years ago, when I was still in Idaho who had fought in Iraq, And I asked him, you know, about it, I called him up. I said, watch the scene and tell me what jumps out at you. And I remember he said there's no way of knowing right because it's a firefight and anyone who's been in a firefight will tell you this idea of coming in and just being Froze, that doesn't work right and that scene and it made me think of what you said that that scene where Joseph comes in and just stands there as bullets were flying everywhere. It's, it's silly.

1:47:19 I don't know how to explain it. It's silly. It's frankly in pardon my expression here, Kimberly. It's a piss poor effort and trying to rewrite history. I mean, at least if you're going to have a conspiracy at least make it a good one. I mean, this is this is just horrible, right? And I want to point out too. Is Justin Griffin is also on record of saying, he said someone asked him in an interview, it's on YouTube. Tube. So, you know, I can get you the link, so people couldn't listen for themselves, but someone asked him. Well, what do you think is the weakness of your theory? And he said that there are no historical sources. That John Taylor Miller Richards have any guns, So I just want you to think about and your audience to think about, okay if you are, they basically Place John Taylor and really Richards on trial.

1:48:11 There they've charged him with first-degree cold-blooded murder and so and if you are the defense attorney. What is the first thing that you're going to defend? How did they kill him with no murder weapon. Right, right, he's saying the Joseph and Hyrum were killed with pistols. What pistols, you know, show me the pistols, you know, there's no guns, no historical evidence of them, having any guns and he admits that. She's so right there. If this were a real court of law today in 2022, that case would be thrown out on that. And that point alone that you can't produce a murder weapon.

1:48:54 Right. Yeah absolutely. It's my son. My oldest boy, came in, came over to visit while I was watching it, you asked me what I was watching and I told him He just kind of looked at me sideways and I'm like son. This is this is the third time. I'm watching this and you know I love you because I'm never going to ask you to watch this because it's a horrible movie. I mean, just production-wise it's not good but I mean it's it's it's so disheartening that it's gained so much traction. It is, and it's unfortunate because he's again, he's very misleading and and he he's not completely forthcoming.

1:49:38 So yesterday, I actually had an opportunity to attend the Mormon history Association conference. No cool. And I attended because it's here in Logan and I actually live in Logan. So and it's actually was just a mile down the street from me I live close to Utah State University and Sam Weston was was going to be a presenter on Carthage and if you remember he's highlighted and Justins movie. Yep he is. And so I'm like okay this is the perfect opportunity. I want to find out what Sam Western thought of the movie and he is, he was very, very unhappy.

1:50:21 He's actually very frustrated and angry with Justin for two. Sentence. Number one, he was very, he was misrepresented in the movie, his research was misrepresented. And number two, he didn't know that. Justin Griffin was going to make the documentary. Oh, geez. And he never signed a release. He said he was duped into seed by Justin and Justin, portrayed himself as a active. Faithful believing member of the church who just wanted. To know the truth about Carthage and I thought I'm just helping a fellow member of the church to understand better what happened in Carthage and so he's pretty upset with Justin and so I was able to, you know, ask some clarifying questions, you know, about his theory.

1:51:14 And because I was kind of partial to the line brother Siri, but after talking to some Weston, he he actually makes some very compelling arguments that I think we really need to revisit that. You know, Joe, I think, Justin Griffin purposely left out a lot of details about his theory out of his movie. So number one is that some Weston says, so he can prove forensically. How Joseph Smith and Hyrum were killed that? Cooperates Willard Richards testimony and John Taylor's testimony really? And so and I just want to highlight that because it's actually very important and I think for your audience or anyone who's listening that may still be skeptical of the traditional narrative.

1:52:04 I think this just completely Bulls it out of the water, the traditional narrative or the or the Justin Griffin's Theory. So What sound Weston's evidence, and Theory, actually stays true to the traditional narrative that eyewitness accounts and blows Justin Theory out of the water. Can you share it with us? Okay. Wait wait, breaking news, go ahead, right? And so this just happened yesterday. So this wasn't originally planned like when I Was preparing for your podcast. But so yesterday just kind of divided by divine intervention. I was able to attend this conference and, and listen to his presentation and then personally interview him. So we have Justin, we all know, if you watch the movie, you know, his theory and what he shows. And so you know he tries It alleges that the church is moving away from the traditional narrative. And there was a representative from the Joseph's, the papers was there and he said absolutely that's not true. We're not moving away from the eyewitness accounts if anything we're trying to provide additional documentation to corroborate the traditional, you know, the eyewitness accounts. And so that's another misleading purposely deceptive claimed by Justin Griffin that I just wanted to do bunk really quick. So Sam Weston.

1:53:33 So his theory is That based on Willie Richards account. He said he, he said, it's the best account we have eyewitness account. So, his theory is right that the three men are at the door. Joseph Smith, John Taylor, Willard Richards, and that hiring is back from the door. Now again we do have what we have paintings and we have, you know, reenactments or movies that show Hiram at the door when he shot. Right. Right and and again we have to understand what the purpose of movie or Cinema. Is it it isn't always it's not always historically accurate, right?

1:54:20 Right, because they're not trying to be, they're just trying to basically when you make a movie and it's not nefarious and no one in the church or outside the church that have made reenactments of Carthage or are trying to retell a new narrative. Whether what they're doing is, she's trying to draw people in three motion, right? And they take a lot of creative Liberties I guess and interpretations. And so there and and that's we need to get away from that. I would, you know, I think that the church agrees, we need to get away from that and if we're going to portray something, we need to make it as accurately as possible. So so we have in our minds that Hiram's at the door. And I guess that Justin just again, he takes advantage of of of just are already pre conceived conceptions. And so he rightfully saying well that could have happened and here's why I write like, right?

1:55:15 The angle and and even some Western agrees. He's like if he if he were at the door when he was shot when the when the musket ball came through the door and hit him in the face, basically wooden. Splinters would be all over his face would be embedded in his face and you would see that the death mask. So he's saying absolutely the higher Smith is Back from the door and the kind of in the center of the room and that's really Richards testimony as well. So he believes that there was the first ball, struck him outside the window in his back, causing him to fall, forward to his knees. And that's when he's claiming I am a dead man, okay?

1:55:56 And then that, and then the musket ball comes to the panel of the door and then hits him in the face. Okay. And what's interesting about that, which I forensically, he can prove that. Really. Did he tell you how? Exactly. Right. So he's gonna have a paper coming out in the summer but yeah, he does explain it. He had diagrams. It's his narrator. So this isn't going to be on video so I can send you his diagrams. All that would be awesome of how that happened and pay. So what's interesting is, is that actually just on June 2nd.

1:56:40 So that's two Is ago. Justin Griffin actually, wrote a Facebook post, which I actually agree with and I'm just going to read it to you because this actually cooperates some Weston's Theory. So he says the Bullet Hole in the vest from the Schottenheimer is back. Does measure close 2.69 inches Then he writes so yes, he could have been shot by a musket and his back by the mob. This is Justin Griffin. Wow. And he says, then he says and here is where he gets deceptive, he says, but there's no gunpowder residue or any burn, marks around that hole in the vest which should have been a case if he was shot by a musket at close range.

1:57:25 That's why in the documentary, I depicted the mob shooting Hiram in the back with a pistol, but whether it was a musket or pistol does not, Terribly changed the Inside, Job Theory. Which I disagree with it kind of does, right? Because if if it's a musket ball and it's an inside job, right? If I'm understanding and you correct me if I'm misunderstanding this that means that Taylor or Richards would have had to have been able to smuggle in a rifle, correct. Well, not just a pistol, not just a rifle but pistols because remember the other shots here, Legend are still pistols.

1:58:05 So The other marks on their bodies or pistols, so it makes no sense. But so, one thing I want to point out, he's like well. So again he's saying there's no gunpowder, residue or burn marks, around that whole new, this So saying and that would be the case of a shot by a musket at close range. Well, according to some Western, he wasn't shot at close range, the the it came from outside the jail, Okay window? Right. Yeah, no, you're right. Okay, so and and this actually forensically we can we know that's true because he's admitting that the Bullet Hole in the vest in the back of her hair's. Vest does measure that of Point 69 inches. So that is a musket ball shots, a musket ball. That's a rifle in the back with a musket ball, right? You can't dispute that anymore.

1:58:58 That's hard evidence, right? The best story and that's that was some Weston's Theory and And of course, Justin Griffin will argue that it's impossible. Haven't must get on the ground and see into the gel but it's it's documented that the they were also standing on wagons, they brought wagons into, the could stand on wagons to see into the window, right? So, I mean, that kind of, I mean that soundly documented, right? So I just there, it just this blows holes in his theory, right? The so because he wants to claim. There's no way he was shot in the face which he's claiming he was shot in the face first and could say I'm a dead man. Well, according to Saint West, and the ball comes out from the musket ball comes from the window shoots him in the back. That's when he's claiming, I'm a dead man. He's falling to his knees.

1:59:58 So this is happening within seconds and then the ball comes through the door panel. Hits him in the face. Which would account for that stray shot that even Griffin talks about that goes through the panel without quote hitting anybody, right? Holy cow. And you you're willing to send me that diagram I am. Yeah, it's awesome. And so, so we're so now we've got a count for the bowl hole in his neck, right? So another thing that Justin gets really, and this is clever of him because he's saying, there's no way that the Bullet Hole based on the angle, went through the now. The came out the neck. So therefore, because there is a bullet wound in the neck, so therefore it had to bend the other way around, right, right. Well, according to an eyewitness account, I think it was William Daniels, who is he is, he is either part of the Mob of the militia, can't remember, he later, joins the church. He was Unreal extant member of the mob by belief. Okay.

2:01:01 So his account is that And he's an eyewitness, he sees Joseph falling from the window right here, right? So really Richards wasn't throwing him out the window. Anyway. He season falling out the window with no wheelie Richards pushing him. So he's saying that, you know, once just so there's a essentially, a third bullet, meaning Hyrum Smith is on the ground after being shot in the face. And then another bullet comes in after he's on the ground and hid them in the neck. So, there isn't. This idea of it has to travel at a weird angle out his nose and out of his neck if that makes sense.

2:01:45 Yeah, it's just a different wound now, right? So that's that. An eyewitness account of a different wound. Wow. And have we always known about that that other account from Daniels. I actually just recently found it, so, I don't know. I don't know. I haven't read it in any any books that have been written about the martyrdom. I actually had someone sent it to me. I didn't find it. Someone just sent it to me. So it's an, it's a recent fine. I'm sure it's always been there, but I don't know if it's made it into any of the visual history books. People have written about Carthage. So where do you think with this new evidence, right? That even Griffin himself now has to say, yeah, that's, that's probably right. Where do you think this takes Griffins? Hypothesis.

2:02:39 Now, what let me rephrase that, where do you think Griffin goes next? Well, I mean, he kind of says already in his post. He says, he says, whether or not a muscular pistol, does does not materially change the Inside Job Theory, so he still claiming this does not change the Inside Job Theory. He liked it. I don't know how you can we have to. We have to like grapple with this, right? We have to say We have to be thinking critically here, right? Like, I think this does change everything this alone changes everything. So, another thing he'll say, he'll say, well, there's no blood stains write right on the back. So therefore so that this has been his his point all along because there's no blood stains.

2:03:30 That means that the shot came after, that's what he's claiming. So he gets so high, I'm already bled out from the face and the neck. So therefore when By the time he shot in the back, there's no blood but actually. And so Sam is alleging that this was the first shot, right, right. And so actually Hyrum Smith body was packed on Ice, oh happens, when you put ice on blood coagulates, right. You can remove blood stains with ice really. Oh try your wife. Probably know as a mother And a housewife who was removed, many of blood stains with cold water and ice. It's easily removed from, I can remove blood from a white T-shirt.

2:04:19 With ice. Is it bad? Now? I want my kid to fall down just a couple times, so we can scrape up. So I can try this, right. You try it. You'll see you can remove. I soak blood-stained garments. In water and ice and I can remove all of the blood stain. And so you have Hyrum Smith who is packed up my right people. Yeah. So, the bodies are, but that's another eyewitness account of the mean, this is also documented that the bodies were on Ice. Holy cow. So yeah, his his theory is at best on life support, now, right?

2:05:05 As he presented it, it's hmm. So this isn't about, will they, you know, the theory that they only washed the top, the bottom part of the clothes and not the top. And that's why we have blood stain on the top and not Bottom. So I'm alleging that the blood stains were removed because of the ice. Right? Because it was in his back and he was laying on his back. Obviously, when you're your body is transported, they don't put you on your face. No, no, that, no, that that takes care of that, that takes care of Griffin's assertion there. Wow, I can't wait for Weston's paper, come out now, right? And he's actually doing blood analysis on the shirt as well, friends, that blood analysis on on Hiram shirt right now. So griffing really, again, pardon the expression really pissed him off, right?

2:05:54 So, because He's very mad. He's pretty mad. Wow. And he's not afraid to say it either. Good good. Fantastic. All right. So after the martyrdom takes place, what are some of the key points about the trial? All right, so this is also very important. I'm just going to go over just a quick points so we can we can move on. But So, at the trial, the trial begins in May of 1845. We know that the Mormon leaders are counts. The council, their members, not to attend, and the reason is is because they knew, will Joseph Smith isn't safe, you're not going to be safe and we know that the law didn't protect Joseph. The anti Mormons posted, a mob of nearly 1,000 people outside of Carthage and the courthouse and the and the audience inside of the courthouse.

2:06:55 Mob members and they all carried guns. And so this not only intimidated, the people coming to the trial but also intimidated, the judge, and the prosecution, and the jury, the prosecution, even public publicly acknowledged that the crowd was at time Mormon. And at the start of the trial, he told the jury, there are hundreds here, I have no doubt who are ready to applaud you and rejoice with you. If you should return a verdict of not guilty against these men. Hmm, so right you know right at the beginning you know this it was pretty much a sham, be sure. And and I do recommend this book the history of Warsaw Illinois by Brian stutzman. He covers the trial in great detail and and I'm just going to read a part because he just does so well about what happened when with the jury and how it was pretty much stacked against. The Mormons.

2:07:57 So, so before the start of the trial, the County Commissioners had selected, a jury a standard legal procedure at the time, the defense opened their case by claiming that the County Commissioners that seated, the jury were prejudiced against the defendants. They also claim the sheriff and others involved were also tainted. They next said, by having biased, people in the case, the Commissioners involved in the selecting of the jury, they themselves could taint. The jury the defense proposed that the Current jury be dismissed and a new jury pulled from those currently. In the audience, be seated, prosecuting attorney, Josiah lambourn vigorously objected and claimed this procedure was not supported in the law.

2:08:41 He ended by challenging the defense to show legal precedents or even a single case where random people in the audience had replaced a seated jury. Now if you know beforehand, there were nine Mormons in the seated jury, right? So they now require Place them with all anti Mormons. So, because they replace them with this, with people, sitting in the audience, the defense, countered that there had never been a case. Like this specifically they claimed was so much prejudiced in the proceedings before the trial. No, precedence, precedence was needed. Incredibly judge young, accepted the argument. Dismissed, the properly seated jury and seated. A new jury with people selected from the anti-mormon audience, this change.

2:09:29 Put the prosecution, prosecution at a Disadvantage from the start. I want to go back to something. You said in the account where it said, this people would not would be. How is that phrase that they would Rejoice if not guilty verdicts were returned? In your estimation and looking at it was that maybe A Veiled Threat of, if it does come back as guilty, you could be dealing with civil unrest. Yeah, that what was it basically thrown against their lives essentially. If they're though, we're basically they'll Rejoice, if you find them not guilty, but you know, what's going to happen. If you do find him guilty, okay.

2:10:17 It's a it's a Veiled Threat. Okay. I just wanted to make sure I understood that correct right cupcake. So that Ryan coupled with the fact that they're attending the trial with rifles. Yeah, thousand men out. That would do it, that would do it, that would scare me. So, and then also, they make sure that there is not a single Mormon on that jury, right? So it's a sham, right? And I think that goes back also to a key point that Griffin tried to make where he said, do you know, he, John Taylor told everybody everybody within the church, excuse me, that they shouldn't test, you know, be part of that trial. And I thought it was a weak statement to make because, of course he's going to say that.

2:11:06 I mean, the account, you just gave us. There's men outside with rifles, right? Also, you've they just took out the leader of the movement. They don't have a problem taking out somebody else who's just testifying If they can get to the to the top, you know, they can get to somebody below. Right. And and again we know that the the law wasn't going to protect the Mormons know, right? The state had failed in protecting Joseph. So your best bet was just to stay away and let God have Vengeance will and again it's not just the fact that they failed to protect Joseph.

2:11:46 I go back to what you said earlier. That caught me by surprise. All but three states conspired to kill him. That's just not a failure to pursue protect. That is an active participant hand in doing away with it, right? So yeah so and it's important. So Joseph murderers included a prominent newspaper editor which is Thomas Sharpe. A state senator who is Jacob Davis? A justice of the peace and two military commanders. Okay I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to repeat that again because I I want to make sure I heard that correctly.

2:12:27 A state senator was involved in the mob in in yes, in the mob. Right? So these are the men that were were chart. There were nine men charged with his murder went to trial included. The prominent newspaper editor, who's Thomas? Sharpe state senator? Who is Jacob Davis? And the justice of the peace and to military commanders. I am sorry. I had to have you repeat that but it blows my mind, right? And these are things that and again I've been in Mormonism for 25 years. And these, you know, there are some things here that you're revealing that I hadn't heard before, right?

2:13:08 I mean, the fact that it's a state senator, a sitting state senator, a newspaper guy. I kind of get the newspaper guy, right? I mean, they've obviously been slanted forever, but you know, and then military men, its Yeah. Yeah. And so, they had promised not to actually arrest these men before the trial, and I think the sheriff went in head and he arrested. Jacob Davis, who was the state senator and then, and then the Senate, and the Congress, basically threatened, the sheriff and they had to release him. so, again, wielding their political power to protect the state senator Oh, geez.

2:13:54 I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm pausing. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it, right? I mean this is a conspiracy that goes up. To the state level and I'm thinking all but three states. There's got to be some sort of federal involvement. Then right there, is there any evidence you have a federal involvement in? I mean, if you think about it, Joseph Smith, he asked for redress several times from the president and he, he denied him. Never got it. Never got it. Wow, he was promised redressed and then he turned his back on him. Holy cow and not only that he's running for president.

2:14:35 So of course he's again he's a he's a threat to the federal government, not just the statement, that's another angle, you know, knowing you ran for president. But yeah, that's another angle I hadn't thought of Wow. Is there any other key points from The Trial? Those are the main ones I wanted to point out and and you know, just looking at this. This historically like this is a pivotal moment in just US History. Absolutely, because there's not another incident in American history, where a major religious figure was killed because of his religion and then American law refuse to execute Justice.

2:15:16 And it's really sad. Considering that Joseph Smith was the biggest advocate for the Constitution of the United States. Yeah. Yeah in fact the episode we did last night we did I felt like we did a good job of I shouldn't say the the episode I just released last night I felt like we did a really good job of showing that the council and 50 because that's the other misconception. You here is that the Council of 50 was just another way for Joseph Smith to attain more power. And realistically, when you read the notes on the Council of 50, it was something meant to support men in their rights and so yeah, holy cow.

2:15:58 So do we know, do we have any information about whatever happened to some of those men who were the conspirators? Why? No, like Levi Williams, like the he basically was given gifts and Yeah, I don't. Other than that they just went on and live peaceful lives and I mean they'll face judgment. I have to go back to each individually but it is far as Justice was never never served never served. So hmm.

2:16:38 Wow. It just gives you pause to think about what all was standing in opposition to Joseph Smith. During that time, it shows a strength and depth of character that I don't think we truly begin to understand. Right. Well I mean Joseph Smith himself said I'm going like the lamb to the slaughter. So we know again and he told the Saints. He told the novel Legion, right before going to car that she said, if the Saints can't have the rights, then my blood Well Fall, Like Rain On The Ground. Jeez. So he literally sacrificed himself to protect the Saints.

2:17:23 And and again I just my biggest criticism of Justin Griffin's narrative is that it makes a complete mockery of his death and you know it's as if his death was in vain you know? If he's if he's murdered from the inside for by Brigham Young to take over the church, then his then his death is in vain. The restoration is insane, right? That means that no priesthood continues. No. He's continued then then what are we? Where's our hope? Right? Right. There's there's no restoration. There's no priesthood line of authority. There's there's nothing jeez.

2:18:05 Yeah. So let's go ahead and move on there then to to some of those prophetic parallels. Because I gotta be honest with you. As you were telling me some of that stuff from from our phone conversation, I was blown away. It was so fascinating to hear, All of this. Right. It is actually very fascinating and I won't have time to get into all of the details, but I just want to. So I basically do just want to Bear testimony. That the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith, like his life. is actually the Fulfillment of Hundreds of years of of ancient biblical prophecy. Meaning if Joseph Smith is prophesied in scripture, which he is of the servant to come forth in the latter days to restore the gospel.

2:18:58 That means every part of his life is prophesied of his life, his mission, including his death. And so I just want to show how and where in scriptures is Joseph Smith death prophesied of, because it's a prophetic event. Okay, so John just get started. Yeah, let's just dive into that because, okay, this, this is some juicy stuff, right? As you were telling me about it. This, this really got me excited. Okay, so I'm going to need to read some quotes. And, and really, again, it has to have to understand who the Prophet Joseph Smith is right, right? We really do need to understand that that he is like John Taylor Gatto Testified, he did more save Jesus Christ, only for the Salvation of men, right? Yeah, yeah, it's a bold statement. Uh-huh.

2:19:54 But it can be backed up. That is I will test. I will go to my grave bearing, testimony of that fact, and I as well, because, and it's another bold statement to stay that, I think next to the death in the crucifixion. Just as Jesus Christ. This is probably one of the most important events in in all of history. I can't even the martyrdom of Smith, I can't agree at all, not just his martyrdom, but his life in general. I when I lived out on the eastern shore of Maryland and I had an opportunity because we subbed out to the University of Maryland, they had kind of a satellite campus and just real quick. I took a course in Jacksonian America and they covered the Mormons a little bit.

2:20:48 And when it came to the section about the Mormons, and I don't think my professor knew I was LDS. He said something that just struck me. He said, when you're dealing with Joseph Smith, you have to come to one of two conclusions, either. He was the most raw genius that has ever been produced in America and certainly America's time, but maybe the world Or he was exactly what he said he was. And and I wrote that quote down and I've kept it all these years and it's burned into my heart because I know where I fall on them, right? And and Joseph Smith did say in the council 50 that he was a God to this generation. So so you know like as we've been talking about the martyrdom again we were talking about what happened leading up to a but we really have to understand why, why the martyrdom, why It have to happen.

2:21:46 And so, just prior to his death, the Prophet Joseph Smith declared, I am tired. I have been mobbed. I have suffered so much. Some of the Brethren think that they can carry this work out better than I can far better. I've asked the Lord to take me out of this world. I have stood all I can. And then he said, I have to steal my testimony to this generation with my blood. I have to do it for this. Work will never progress until I'm gone for the testimony. It is of no Force until the death of the testator. And then he goes on to say, people little know who I am, when they talk about me and they never know, will they never will know until they see me weighed in the balance in the kingdom of God.

2:22:29 Then they will know who I am. See me as I am. I dare not tell them and they do not know me. Cool. So Joseph Smith is saying that even even though the Saints did not ever know who he really was, right, they did not know him and so I think sometimes we oversimplify the martyrdom. And so here you saying The Testament is of no Force until the death of the testator, and Paul in the New Testament, taught the exact same principle. So, in the New Testament, Paul said, the blood must be shed as the price of freedom and of Ruth. But most of all, as the price of the witness of Jesus Christ, he said in Hebrews chapter 9 for a testament is of is a force after men are dead. Otherwise it is of no strength at all. While the testator liveth whereupon. Neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. And so, it's significant to know the, in the Joseph Smith, translation of Hebrews chapter 9 that the word testament is replaced with the word covenant.

2:23:40 so, Basically Joseph. It's saying if you so if she read those scriptures he's saying the Covenant is not in force until the testator's is dead. So Joseph Smith, he shed his blood in order that the final Testament or in other words the re-establishment of the New Covenant might be in full effect. Right. He's re-establishing the Covenant, the abrahamic Covenant to this generation and it's not in full effect until he sheds his blood. According to Hebrews chapter 9 that is and that's one of the things that because the translation or Whatever Gets overlooked, It makes sense. It keeps with Biblical tradition, scriptural, tradition, and also puts Joseph Smith in a light. Of being.

2:24:46 A willing sacrifice next next to Jesus only exactly. And you know I want to talk about the symbolism of blood for a minute because blood is a simple. This is the symbol excuse me, as symbol of death but is also a symbol of life. And when so when Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden, right? And and the coats of skins were made for him as a covering, it's it's the idea that something had to die for Adam to be covered, right? So the animal had to die, had to shed his blood, in order for Adam to be covered.

2:25:29 And so, the idea that in order That blood is a symbol of life, our new life, new birth. Right? We see that in the symbolism of when a woman gives birth, it's there has to be blood and water present. So symbolism of rebirth, and anyway, we can go into I mean that's a different topic. Lots of Sims. Yeah, I actually love gospel symbolism but Joseph Fielding Smith also said, Joseph Smith had to die. Why? Because we read in the scriptures that the testimony is not a force without the death of the testator that is in his particular case but also in the case of Jesus Christ, the stealing of the testimony through the shedding of blood would not have been complete in the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith alone, it required the death of Hyrum Smith and the Prophet Joseph Smith.

2:26:17 Who jointly held the keys of this? Dispensation it was needful that these Martyrs still their testimony with their blood that they might be honored. And the wicked might be condemned. So it wasn't just, the Joseph Smith had to die, but we also know that Hyrum Smith held held the keys jointly with Joseph Smith. I don't know if you knew that so I guess yeah but it is a point that's often overlooked right? Is that Hiram was was essentially profit one a if you will right right behind Joseph. But they held the keys jointly together, right? And so they both they both had two silver testimony for And so they both had to die and we see so again he's teaching so again yet.

2:27:04 So you have Paul saying the covenants not enforced, without the death of the testator and Joseph Fielding Smith is saying well it they also need to steal their testimony of blood basically. So it stands as a testimony for the righteous and against the wicked and this principles taught in the Book of Mormon, we have the story of a bended, I fire and His death was also an active with witnessing through the ceiling of the testimony of his blood. right, so when you think of I've been a die, he could not die. Or is what he's giving that final testimony testimony to King. Noah.

2:27:46 He basically is saying you can't, you know, I'm not gonna die until I witness against you and then his testimony is sealed with his blood. If that makes sense, if you go back and study his know that that makes perfect sense. And we saw that with, with some of the Apostles to, right? Peter, I believe, Stephen, all of them had to, to give up to seal that testimony with their blood, right? So in mosiah 17, verses 9 through 10, that event that I says, yeah, and I will suffer even in to death and I will not recall my words and they shall And as a testimony against you, and if he slay me, you shall slay innocent blood and this shall also stand as a testimony against you at the last day.

2:28:34 So we see that this this principle he's teaching it is that the ceiling of the blood is an act of witnessing, right? It's going to stand as a testimony against the wicked. Which is pretty. I think it's pretty profound when you think about it you know. You don't want to be mocking. Joseph Smith's death. No. Yeah. It's going to stand as a testimony against you. Yeah. So I think that's it was that's why we need to understand the prophetic significance of the martyrdom. Anyway. Yeah. So Jewels back to what you said makes a mockery of Joseph Smith's Right.

2:29:17 Right. And anybody who may start to participate in that in any way, shape, or form by promoting this movie could, I'll never pretend to know the mind and will of the almighty, but could be on that same Shaky Ground, right? And and so I do hope that there that, you know, as as more evidence comes out of and more people are too are willing to Bear testimony of the truthfulness of the martyrdom, like Sam Weston and others. They can show forensically different aspects of the market on my eye. My prayer. My prayer is that Justin Griffin will repent. And those are, they're pushing. This narrative will be called the repentance, so that they don't, they don't have to stand at the Judgment bar right and have that testimony witness against them of what they've done. So, you know, I do have a lot of, you know, I'm willing to give Mercy to those and my prayer is, you know, is that it's another reason I do want to stand as a witness and and I guess as a voice for the truth.

2:30:21 So it is so that you know, the they'll be given an opportunity to repent. So I just wanted to add that in there but I do want to. I also want to say though that if Justin narrative is truth and nothing of prophetic consequence happened, right? Right. Go by his friends for no other reason, then they want power. And then that means that There's nothing a prophetic consequence in the martyrdom. And and my argument is is that the martyrdom is it is a fulfillment of Prophecy. so, I don't know how there's a lot we could get into Bruce.

2:31:08 Our McConkey did say he said every prophecy about any of the great, and glorious events destined to take place in the dispensation of the fullness of time is in its nature. A prophecy about Joseph Smith, so, Yeah. You can't escape it right? You have to deal with Joseph Smith. You have to deal not just with his life. But with his martyrdom, right? Everything Is prophesied Right, wipe life, including his death. And so I believe that every member of the church, You know everyone who anyone who claims to know that Joseph Smith is a prophet. They have to have a solid testimony and a witness That he was the man designated even before the foundations of the earth to stand at the head of this, the greatest of gospel, dispensations, right?

2:32:11 That he is his life in his mission is not just, it was foreordained before. Even the foundations of the earth we have to have that. Sure witness and testimony. And that his life and Mission was known to all of the Holy prophets. Even before the real world, the world began. He was he was known by both name and family to the ancient prophets who described his role in the Gathering of Israel and bringing forth, The Book of Mormon and adding the Canon of scripture was personal Revelations and restoring other ancient scriptural text. I mean we should know that you know Adam Enoch Noah Abraham Moses. They all knew Joseph Smith.

2:32:57 They didn't just know him. They actually also all came to him. It's recorded in that I believe section 128 of the Doctrine and Covenants, you're correct. They all came to him and they all personally taught him, a tutor them and gave them their keys. Yeah. Kimberly I'm going to say something and you can correct me if you think I'm off base here. But next to a testimony of the Savior and of God, the Father The testimony of who Joseph was and his prophetic role is essential. In Mormonism.

2:33:37 For not only salvation, but exaltation is that overstating it in any way. Not at all. I mean, we have prophetic quotes of Brigham Young saying no one's getting into the Celestial Kingdom without the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, right? Right, he is a vital figure. He is Again, next to Jesus only is the only thing I keep coming back to over and over again. Which makes all the things we've talked about previously, so, important that you have a correct and true understanding of it.

2:34:18 Because if it's perverted in any way. Your testimony really isn't a force in that right? Yep. I mean there's I have so many quotes but I'll try to get to the most important here. So, But I think it's also important and this is just a little other side note to that Hiram hires Nate hirings name because again we were talking about how Hiram had to be also be martyred with with Joseph Smith in order to steal that testimony or established that Covenant and hirings name in Hebrew means, my brother is exalted. So right there he you know, he testifies of his name he is testifying of who Joseph Smith is anyway.

2:35:06 So I just think what appropriate name for him to would have been given to the man who was destined to do to Carthage and steal his testimony with his blood along side of Joseph Smith and I don't laugh because I think it's funny I laugh because You can't you couldn't have made that up, right? I mean that's just You see the hand of the almighty and all of this all the way through. All right. Yep. And and then I want to also point out there's the legend of the Messiah, Ben Joseph. And I want to bring that up because this is of great significance in this isn't this is a Hebrew tradition.

2:35:48 This is a Jewish tradition, but we have, we have Latter-Day Saints, Scholars, who have also, you know, Joseph Fielding mcconkie. He actually wrote a book on this. He and his name shall be Joseph about the Messiah Ben Joseph prophecies, and how they relate to Joseph Smith. There's other Scholars that have come out of BYU. I think his name is Trevor hatch. I think he also wrote an excellent paper on this. So this isn't, this is a this is actually a Jewish Legend but it's also been corroborated by several Latter-Day Saints dollars. So, so what is the legend of the Messiah Ben Joseph There's an ancient Hebrew tradition, which speaks of two separate Messiahs that were for deigned to rise among Covenant people of the Lord, one from the tribe of Judah.

2:36:40 And one from the tribe of Joseph. So we have to understand the Messiah in Hebrew means anointed one. Hmm. So Messiah Ben, there's so there's two, Messiahs, one is Messiah, Ben, David and Messiah, Ben Joseph, so Messiah. Ben David is the anointed one from the tribe of Judah and the Messiah. Ben Joseph is the anointed one from the tribe of Joseph, right? So it doesn't mean that there's two, Messiahs, that workout at home, adjust that It just means anointed one. So the Messiah Ben, Joseph concept first arose. When Rachel, the mother of Joseph of Egypt prophesied that Joseph would be the ancestor of a messiah. Who would Arise at the end of the end of days. So it's scriptural Chand and then we can go into all the prophecies people should be familiar if they read the scriptures.

2:37:37 Joseph Egypt. Name's Joseph Smith, right? Right. I'll be his servant as Latter-Day. Seer raised up out of my loins to come forth. We know Joseph in Egypt, he's prophesying of this Messiah named Joseph. You know, coming from the tribe of Joseph. We have, you know, so that's in Genesis chapter 50. I would recommend reading the Joseph Smith translation on that one. So he's for telling the events Joseph in Egypt is actually in Joseph, Smith's patriarchal blessing and In his paycheck a blessing in 1834 I'll just read it quick quote from that it says behold and now this is the patriarchal blessing given to him by his father, okay?

2:38:29 Joseph Smith Senior, he says, behold he looked after it, he speaking of Joseph, in Egypt to Joseph Smith, he said, behold, he looked after his posterity in the last days when they should be scattered and driven by the Gentiles and wept before the Lord He sought diligently to know from whence, the sun should come. Who should bring forth the word of the Lord, by which, they might be enlightened and brought back to the true fold and his eyes beheld. Lee my son, his heart rejoiced in his soul is satisfied, Wow. So he was saying that Joseph in Egypt was praying to the Lord saying, who is this son? That you promised would come forced together. My people and the Lord showed him Joseph Smith. And then Joseph Smith Senior saying he beheld thee, my son, and and Joseph Smith taught that the patriarchal Authority belong to the blood of Joseph.

2:39:21 And so he established his father Joseph Smith Senior as the patriarch of the church in a The about his father Joseph pronounced, the same blessing on his father that Jacob had on Joseph. Quote, he shall be as a fruitful bough even a fruitful bough by a well, whose branches run over the wall and his seed shall Biden strength. So, that was a prophecy about his own father. Right? So it's pretty. It's pretty significant that he is, you know, he's this prophesied figure that the blood of Joseph in Egypt is going to run through the veins of Joseph Smith and his family. And that's what establishes. The priesthood Authority in this last. Dispensation it's a it's a it's a blood lineage right and so Messiah.

2:40:13 Ben Joseph. Is no minor minor figure in Hebrew tradition and in the scriptures and I'm just going to read, I'll just read of some of the Prophecies of this Messiah, Ben, Joseph and and it will be easy to see how they parallel Joseph Smith, right? So and this is setting up to how the prophetic parallels of his death. So it's kind of a, we have to understand again. So we have to understand if his life is prophesied in scripture and so has his death. So Messiah Ben. Joseph prophecy is that he will be the second in rank of the two Messiahs. Right. So we can see that right? If he does more say Jesus Christ, only right that kind of rank.

2:40:59 He's referred to as as king Messiah. So again Joseph Smith was crowned king of Israel. Yeah. The Council of fifty and he did then obviously other prophecy we talked about that. He descends from the tribe of Joseph through Ephraim. Which we know. He's that was that's in Doctrine and Covenants. So the Messiah Ben Joseph, so here's the other prophecies, the Messiah Ben Joseph is to be held in reserve to live on the earth in the last days. Now these are prophecies coming from. These are what the Jews are saying. These are saying these are prophecies. We've identified in scripture about this Messiah, Ben, Joseph, that they don't know the identity of, right? He said, well, he'll be in held in reserve to live on the earth.

2:41:40 And last days, the Messiah Ben Joseph is to be born to the lineage of Joseph. Egypt's Birthright Saint ephrem, right yard. We already know that the Messiah Ben Joseph is to live upon the Earth prior to when Messiah, Ben David appears in all his glory and is to act as his Forerunner. You know, you think, oh, they just, we could just enter some to Joseph Smith. They would they would know that this is the side that they're looking for the Messiah Ben. Joseph is to be the revealer of the true faith of Jehovah and one Jewish Legend goes of the age of Besides that. The Messiah Ben, Joseph Joseph cause will will cause some erroneous elements of religious worship that had been in crept in among the Israelite tribes to vanish.

2:42:25 Thus he will perform his work. After a period of apostasy G and that's been fulfilled, right? The prophet alight. Okay, we know that love this. Well, we know about how the Prophet Elijah. Elijah has returned to the Earth and that's foretold in the days of the Messiah, Ben Joseph. So, they believe also that the Prophet Elijah will return during the days of Messiah Mendoza, which we know that that's also, prefer has been fulfilled, right? Because because Elijah appeared to him. Hmm, Masai. Ben, Joseph is to rebuild the Temple of Israel and restore its true worship.

2:43:08 Wow, we know that that was fulfilled. And so, The Messiah Ben Joseph is to gather the children of Israel around him including a portion of the Lost ten tribes. And we know that that still in fulfillment, right? That's still happening. Now, that, that is the true. Israel will only be gathered to the true Messiah, right? Yep, if I is Ben, David Wright, the Messiah Ben, Joseph, would be protected by the Messiah, Ben David. So again, this goes back to Joseph, Smith's prophecy where he's saying I will not die into my work has been fulfilled.

2:43:49 And that was, that's the proof. Prophecy of the Messiah. Ben Joseph is that he would be protected until he could fulfill his mission, right? And like I said, before the Messiah Ben Joseph is to be a king again, we already established that he was crowned, king of Israel. And then the most compelling is the Messiah. Ben, Joseph is to die as a martyr. But again, these are the Hebrew traditions of who this Messiah Ben Joseph is, he said, I as a martyr. And again, when John Taylor, informs us, that when Joseph Smith went to Carthage to deliver himself up. To the pretended requirements of the law.

2:44:31 He said, I'm going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as the Summers morning. I have conscience void of offense toward God, and toward all men, I shall die innocent, and it shall be said of me. He was murdered in Cold Blood, so he truly is a martyr. So, the story. So the story of Joseph and Hyrum is death is more than a martyrdom. It's more than a ceiling of the testimony and blood. It's the story of two men who were willing to die for their people, the per the prophet fulfilled, his vow and Spilled his blood and behalf of his beloved Saints. For many centuries, the house of Israel, likely performed sacrifices in remembrance of both the Son of God and also the Prophet Joseph Smith.

2:45:15 And there is Elias astronomer dr. John P. Pratt. Who? Who did excellent research on this? And so I'm just going to quote him. He says every day two Lambs were sacrificed one at dawn and one in the afternoon and he's talking about the Mosaic sacrifices it has been suggested that the first lamp sacrifice did it Dawn the Meridian of their day which began at Sunset represented, Jesus Christ known as the Messiah ben-judah, the anointed one from the tribe of Judah. Which would be Christ, right? The second lamb sacrificed near the end of day. Representing near the end of History.

2:45:55 Likely symbolized Joseph Smith known as the Messiah Ben Joseph being from that tribe. Thus Joseph Smith was apparently of such stature to have been civilized by daily sacrifice in the law of Moses. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty significant going back to Messiah Ben Joseph. The first time I heard about that Kimberly, I was living again on the Eastern Shore and I worked with a guy whose dad was a rabbi and they had invited me and my family over for their Sabbath meal and their tradition. And I got a chance to talk with his dad and his dad's name was Zeke.

2:46:36 And as we were talking and he was asking me about my religion and what I believed because, you know, there's there's plenty of Mormons on the East Coast but we're pretty far scattered, right? As I told them about who Joseph Smith was he I'll never forget it because he just kind of leaned back in his chair a little bit. And he looked at me and he's like, that sounds an awful lot like Messiah Ben Joseph and I was like, well who's that? And he basically said everything you said, - a few things. I didn't know that he was supposed to be a martyr, but he talked about Temple temples and priesthood and all those other things. I heard that 15 plus years ago now and it's just again. I mean, the parallels are so striking and if you just use you know, the science of statistical probability that that would happen.

2:47:32 It's next to Impossible and it's not like Joseph Smith could have set himself up to be that because that, that tradition wasn't something that was commonly shared with quote Gentiles. That was something that was kept pretty guarded by by the rabbi. Eyes from what I understand for a long time, right? And so there's more. So the, so the symbol for the Messiah, Ben Joseph is the Bullock. And that's the symbol the ball. It's also the symbol of the tribe of Joseph with the two horns symbolizing Ephraim and Manasseh. And so we know that, you know, the from has a Divine Mission together. Israel in the latter days and Joseph Smith leads the mission as the head of this.

2:48:17 Dispensation. So you see that Elijah's mortal life and the and the mission of the Prophet Joseph Smith have interesting parallels. So when the Prophet Elijah conferred, his keys upon the Prophet Joseph Smith, he was in daring. Power for Joseph Smith to accomplish a mission. Similar to enforce shadowed by the prophet Elijah's mortal mission. In other words, Elijah's mortal life was a prefiguring of Joseph Smith. So when Elijah, offered sacrifice the evening sacrifice it, centered around a bowl, the Bullock lying on the altar. As a sacrifice was with, then. I would argue far more than a ritual ceremony. It was likely a prophetic foreshadowing of the literal Human Sacrifice. That would be Forgotten the Saints and the hope that Zion would be preserved and eventually established. So Joseph had to sacrifice himself. Geez.

2:49:14 Yeah, holy cow. Ed gave me goosebumps. I mean, just just Look, I'm a guy who likes to talk but some of this is just leaving. Me speechless thinking about it, write it and again you can't. You have to deal with Joseph Smith. You have to come to a testimony of his prophetic calling that seems to have Echoes as far back as the Human family can go. Right. Including his FIU said, so, his death is being foreshadowed. Yeah, he is going to. He lay him down his self down as a sacrifice. Write it, it's not just that, you know, he foreshadowing, that he would be killed.

2:50:04 It's like, no, he's going to lay his down. His, he's going to lay himself down as that sacrifice, right? And, and there's there's so much that that ties into that, right? Like that was the sacrifice of the evening, right? The, the bullet, right? Is that a reference to where we are? If you were to say, you know, all of human existence is a day. Does that tell us where we are? That we're in Evening now are we that close? Yep we it exactly. And and so Joseph Smith said on June 16 1844 like he's for telling what's lying ahead. He says I do not regard my own life, I'm ready to be offered a sacrifice for this people. He says for what can our enemies do? Only kill the body and their power is done at an end stand for my friends.

2:50:54 Never Flinch do not seek to save your lives for he that is afraid to die for. The truth will lose eternal life. Hold out to the end and we shall be resurrected and become like gods, and rain, and Celestial kingdoms principalities and eternal dominions. While this mob will sink into the portion of all, those who shed innocent blood God has tried, you, you are a good people. Therefore, I love you with all my heart greater love hath. No, man than that. He should lay down his life for his friends. You have stood by me in the hour of trouble. I am Think to sacrifice my life for your preservation and that was in the millennial star Vol 54 page 409.

2:51:38 Jeez. So again, he's saying I am dying. I'm sacrificing myself for you in order to save you. So again, as I said, dozens of times throughout this interview, Joseph Justin Griffin's movie makes a complete, mockery of this sacrifice. Yeah, it's I don't even know what other word to call it, other than sacrilegious, right? I mean, And and when you start gaining, a better idea of just how important Joseph was in the plan of human of human in the Quest for human exaltation.

2:52:30 right, I'm sorry, I'm sorry I'm at a loss for words here because It's breathtaking when you understand the scope, right? That someone. And you can only hope that he doesn't know what he's doing, right? That he doesn't have a testimony of how important Joseph Smith is, because I feel like if he did You are committing a pretty grave sin that I'm not sure you can really come back from right? I would agree. I My Hope Is that he just doesn't you know, with more knowledge because more condemnation and I would just hope that he lacks this sufficient knowledge to really understand what he's doing.

2:53:12 Right? You know because I do pray for Mercy because like I said this is akin to Betraying the Savior? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's pretty serious. What's happening? And so, I think, again, I'm hoping that I can be a voice or a testimony of other people. So that, you know, if they follow this narrative, they'll be counted among Traders. His, their names will go down in history as traitors. Absolutely. I don't think that's overstating, it whatsoever. At all. And I just want to commend you on the work. You've done Kimberly.

2:53:55 I see no man, no person. That's a that has led that charge as vigorously as you have a lot of folks. Do you have big debt, they really do because you have been at the Forefront of this thing. You know, I haven't, I feel like I haven't always probably, you know, my Approach hasn't always been good. I'm very passionate obviously about this topic and and muchly my desires because I just don't want to see anybody else to see know. So and at the same time you know raising my voice in the Public Square defense of you know Brigham Young.

2:54:36 And John Taylor really Richards has come with a lot of persecution and so you know, I've taken some pretty big hits against my own character. and so, And that's been hard but but nothing compared to what the saints went through. Like, it's nothing compared to the persecution, you know, that those that laid the foundation suffered for the cause of Truth and righteousness. And so I just if anything, I just I I just feel compelled to to just to Bear testimony of what they did because ultimately, they made the ultimate sacrifice and and you know being called names and being told and crazy and other accusations that Wait, I just think it's nothing compared to what Joseph Smith did, what?

2:55:24 Brigham Young did leading the Saints across Uncharted Territory. You know, those that lay down their life, the pluralize of Joseph Smith are being persecuted. Their names are being drug through the mud right now, they're being called liars and whores and and things like that. And so it's nothing compared to what I feel like my forefathers and foremothers have done for me. So I count it as a privilege to stand in defense of their name and to stand up for their character. Well, look, We can edit this part out later if you want me to. But when you, when you and I first started to text when I was asking you to come on in and you recommended that I talked to some other folks. And you told me what it was, you didn't give me details. But you told me what it was you were going through. I didn't want to say it over text because it seemed too impersonal, but that sacrifice that you made will be accounted for, right?

2:56:23 I mean, God, God has a way of rectifying, all of that history has a way of, you know, sorting out who was right and who was wrong and I don't know you well but I know enough to know that your character is beyond reproach when it comes to this stuff. Again, I can't thank you enough for what you've done to this point. I appreciate you saying that. It's just definitely think the strong. All right. Yeah so so just just moving on. I think this is the this is exciting part of the prophetic parallels of the martyrdom.

2:57:07 So So let's ask the question, then was the death of Joseph and Hyrum really a prophetic events. And in order to answer that, we're going to go to the Book of Daniel because the Book of Daniel is a blueprint for the restoration. Yep. And we know that because with the scripture about the stone, cut out of the mountain and and So Joseph Joseph Smith actually said he said quote, I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord and I attend to lay the foundation lay a foundation that will Revel, revolutionize, the whole world. It's in history of the church, volume 6 page 365.

2:57:48 So again, he's telling us that the Book of Daniel is basically a group blueprint for the kingdom of God. And because he's saying, I'm an instrument and setting up, Kingdom from the kingdom of Daniel once when the prophet was preaching from Daniel chapter 2 or excuse me 4:2? No. 2:4 he said the kingdom referred to Was already set up and that he was the king over it. Wow. Right. So he has testifying to Joseph's kingship in Israel with the Council of 50, right? And he's also telling us that he's the one fulfilling prophecy in Daniel, right?

2:58:33 Right. So, so the Book of Daniel pinpoints the the year of the martyrdom It pinpoints 1844 as the prophetic event. So just a few Generations ago a an estimated 100,000 Christians expected Christ to return in 1844 in the 19th century. There was a, there was a man named William Miller who was a contemporary of Joseph Smith. So he's right, he's around the same time as Joseph Smith. He's he was a Baptist from Western Vermont. Same state as Joseph Smith, he moved to New York. He converted to the state. He converted during the same religious revivals that excited Joseph Smith and then he began studying the Bible intensely in 1831 after an extensive 14-year study, the Bible, William Miller calculated.

2:59:28 That the second coming of Jesus Christ with occur in 1844. And his conclusions were basically large on the interpretations of the symbolic meaning of the prophecies in Daniel especially Daniel. I'm 8:14. And I don't have my Bible in front of me. Let me just hurry and Google it so I can read that to you you're just fine. So now again it's it's symbolic this prophecy. So it's so I'll just read it to you. Make sure I'm getting the right, the right version. Okay.

3:00:12 So Again will and William Miller's prophecy about the second coming of Christ. Being 1844 is based on the scripture in Daniel and he said unto him to me and to two thousand and three hundred days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Okay. Now Most people reading that from the say that has nothing to do with the martyrdom or Joseph Smith, right? But again, it's symbolic. And it's a it's a mathematical prophecy, right, right. Because he's saying unto 2300 days. Now we have to understand two things about this prophecy. Number one, it's a mathematical prophecy similar to when Lehigh says in 600 years.

3:00:58 Will Jesus Christ be born right? He's actually giving exact date, right? He's right. So mathematically prophecy. Number two, you have to understand about this prophecy that is in Hebrew days means years, right? Right. And we can go back and I can show you scripturally how that's true. And if you go back and read the story of when Joseph is actually, is it Joseph or Jacob? With Leah and Rachel. I think that was Jacob. Yep. Jacob sorry. No. It's okay. So if you read the verse when when you know his father tells them you have to work for seven days and then it translated into seven years. It's an example of how shows that the Hebrews understood days to me in years?

3:01:43 That was just an example. You have to go back and read. So, okay, so again it's a mathematical prophecy. Something is going to happen in two thousand and three hundred days which In Hebrew is years, two thousand, three hundred years and then the sanctuary will be cleansed. Okay. So William William Miller knew something was going to happen, you know? From and he goes back through other chapters and Daniel where he pinpoints the starting point of that prophecy. And that's all been laid out by a man named John Dee Nelson, who is actually a member of the church.

3:02:26 He basically goes through all of the research of how he came. How this William Miller came up with scripturally from The Book of Daniel how he came up with a starting point and I would just have to recommend people read that because it's to comprehensive for me to go over and podcast sure but your estimation is it's rock solid though right? It's rock solid. Well okay you got like it, you go through his math. You actually you could find, you could actually find it online. If you just there's a movie, there was a movie written about it and they go through and they show the calc how William Miller came out.

3:03:10 Come up, came out with the calculations scripturally, it's rock solid. So he goes back and he basically assigns a year to win. Daniel, makes that prophecy right. Look, I start his own. He's like, okay, here's the starting point. Point and it, and then ending point of this 2000, whatever gears ends and 1844, okay? Okay, so but it wasn't just William Miller, there were scores of other prominent Bible scholars around the world. That agreed that Daniels prophecy would find its fulfillment in the 1840s. So it wasn't just him. It was like I said, hundreds around the world. This was a worldwide phenomena, right? At this time, a Bostick, a Boston clergyman said, if these days are years, meaning again, going back to that scripture. If these days are years, any Schoolboy can see it for a 492 terminated terminated at the death of Christ, the 2300 days, would terminate in 1844 and the It must end unless it can be shown that some other event is to take place. I do not see how that can be done. So they've narrowed down 1844 is this pivotal year in human history, right?

3:04:33 And the only inference that he can't. Yes, prophetic. But the only inference he can make is that that is Christ's return because he's like, if it's not that it's something else but I don't know what else it could be right because Then they don't have the advantage of the knowledge of the restoration. Okay? Yep. Yep. These are, these are Christians, right? They don't know, right? This is happening. The same time that Joseph Smith is alive. Remember, this is their contemporaries, which shows a Smasher. Yep. But they haven't accepted. They haven't accepted or no one's preach to them at the restoration so they don't know what what other event could happen in 1844? We don't know.

3:05:14 So they assumed that it would be the return of Christ. It's a A bull assumption. If you don't know what's going on with Joseph Smith and the restoration, right? So again, so hundreds of Bible scholars are agreeing. Something prophetic is going to happen in 1844 but not everybody was in agreement about what would happen at that appointment time but they knew it was an appointed time. And there was a professor of Hebrew. His name was George Bush and he wrote Whoever attacks mr. Miller on his point of time, attacks him on his strongest Point, his time is right, but he is mistaken in the event to occur. So he's agreeing.

3:05:56 This is a professor of Hebrew. He's like you can't attack him on the year because that's his strongest point. It's just that he didn't agree that the prophetic event was the coming of Christ. Okay. So, but all these Bible scholars, knew that something prophetic was going to take place in 1844, okay? And unfortunately, history has shown William Miller was mistaken in the event and this led to what is called the great disappointment of 1844. I've heard of it yet, I encourage your audience to Google it. Google on YouTube, you'll find many Talks about it.

3:06:38 Movies were made about it because it was, it was a worldwide phenomenon, right? If you had go ahead, I was gonna say, the Miller. I'd say became the Seventh Day Adventist correct, right? Okay, so so what happened was that? Obviously, you have these thousands of Christians in 1844 waiting for the coming of Jesus Christ and obviously, that didn't happen. So he had first predicted that, it would happen. Spring. And because he was following, you know, God's appointed times are always in the spring and the fall right based on. Yep. The Jewish feast days, he always knew the gods appointed time.

3:07:20 Everything is fulfilled in the spring and the fall, which is true for church history as well, right? Yep. Joseph Smith gets the plates in the fall and then other things were fulfilled in the spring. Things like that. So he was basing it off that he's okay. So so first it was Jesus Christ is going to return in Spring. Of 1844 and then that didn't happen. And so they had to count for that. They said, okay, we must just been wrong, it's going to happen in the fall and and of course that didn't happen either. And that's what led. So you had all these Christian's right waiting and Fields, they'd abandon their homes, their flocks, their everything.

3:08:00 Their businesses, waiting in the fields and in October of 1844 They wake up the next day. Christ hadn't come, right? You heard cries, mistreat. You know, people were just disappointed and, but they never abandoned. Their faith. That something prophetic happened. They just said something prophetic happened. We just don't know what it was. And that led to the creation of The Seventh-Day Adventists. And what's actually fascinating is that that were Miller wrote actually in a paper in a newspaper on June. 27 1844 the day of the martyrdom really. It's it's a newspaper called the midnight crier. So again this was when They had predicted it that the coming would come in in the spring.

3:09:00 So now they're saying okay it didn't have in the spring, it's going to have in the fall so they're still holding out hope so to me there's no coincidence that in June 27 1844 he writes And I'll just do a quick quote. He says true. We have made one mistake on the time and even now we know not where the mistake lies. No one has yet been able to show where we're in. What respect we have aired unless God's word reveals the secret true. Our oppressors have told us and still tell us our calculations are wrong. But as yet they have been unable to tell, wherein lies the mistake, the conclusion is that the science have all been seen. The point of time has been reached in which All the vine numbers, most Harmon, Harmon, SLI terminate, but the day and hour or wisely hit from Mortals yet, we are assured. That this time of suspense will not be long. Just long enough to Humble our pride, to test our faith, love and integrity and to purify us, and make us White. So, he's saying we still have hope. That this prophecy is going to be fulfilled in 1844 and he wrote this in the Midnight Cry.

3:10:10 Iran June, 27 1844 the day of the martyrdom Yeah cheese. Yeah, and so he, they still believed the even though they were greatly disappointed, they still had faith in the prophecy and they knew that something prophetic have happened and, and, you know, it's just unfortunate that they didn't have the restoration or they'd know what that event was right? But we do know what the event was. We do know what that prophetic event happened. In 1844 right? Yeah, we know that.

3:10:51 Joe's, as Joseph Smith said he stilled the Covenant with his blood. The Covenant is now in force, the sanctuary can now be cleansed right? Yeah. Absolutely. He restored the kingdom of God on Earth. We know where to look for a mission of sins. We have all the ordinance, the qisas are the keys are here. That's the meaning of that of that Bible verse. It's fascinating. I the the book that he wrote John Dean, Houston is 8, he'd 44 in Prophecy. If you can find a copy, you might be able to find it on Amazon. You know, it it's this sort of stuff that tells you God's Not absent from what's happening, right? And it's like he's given Witnesses everywhere. He gave a witness, Outside of Mormon them for people to look at to find maybe lead other people to Mormon. I don't know.

3:11:50 I won't pretend to know his designs. But they're there. And it Bears testimony to the fact, he still loves his children and is still working with his children and still points to where to find truth, to find God's Witnesses. Exactly. So, so, we know that these Christian Scholars, they fail to recognize Joseph Smith as the true Prophet. But their studies, Serve to illuminate, Joseph Smith's role and prophecy, particularly his death. And so because William Miller said something prophetic was going to happen in 1844 and that was an appointed time, right?

3:12:37 And I think the end of the vine nod to Daniel's 1844 prophecy the Lord tells Joseph Smith and Liberty Jail. He says quote by days are known and they year shall not. Be numbered less, jeez. So he's saying, your death is known, your days are numbered. There's an appointed time for you to die. yeah, so I think it's just Pretty significant. So even down to the date of his death. Joseph Smith is known as scriptural prophecy front and I really like this quote from Joseph, I think it's from Joseph Fielding Smith, he's just an outstanding scholar, he he's done remarkable work on the Prophecies of Joseph Smith and he says, from the days of Adam father.

3:13:24 Adam to the last prophecy of dispensations past have come a mighty flood of Prophecy, which like a strong band has surrounded. The Prophet Joseph Smith dictating the Great work that he would do. Such decrees had to be fulfilled to the very letter. And so it has been more prophecy was fulfilled in the Life Time of Joseph Smith than had ever been had banned for nearly 2000 years before. That's a sweeping statement. But you true statement, I mean, we can see it, right? I mean, you don't have to look hard, it's there, right? It's their it. Just thinking about from ancient Jewish tradition. To millerites.

3:14:10 To scripture. It all, testifies of Joe. There's portions there that testify of Joseph prophetic calling his mission, and even his sacrifice, right? And just one other important, this is just too coincidental to be a coincidence. So, like we said, so, from the millerite movement was started the Seventh-day Adventist and they're one of the largest Christian denominations in the world. And so, modern day, Christian, or Seventh-Day Adventists have actually Revisited Daniels prophecy and to get because again, they still hold true that something prophetic happen in 1844.

3:14:52 They've never been in that, right? And they. So they've now linked it to the martyrdoms. Revelation and in John. So they're saying that there's a connection between the 1844 prophecy in Daniel with the martyrdoms prophecy in in Revelation and the Book of John in the New Testament, the martyrdom Revelation about the two witnesses. Is that the one you're speaking of? Yep. Yep. And so I and so again, they're missing the event because they don't have the advantage of the restoration but we do So, you know, I would, I also do want to recommend it for, for your listeners. So the Joseph Smith Foundation.

3:15:34 Actually did do a documentary called The Mystery of the two prophets. Were they also go in and make the parallel between the death of Joseph and Hyrum with Prophecies of the two prophets in Revelation 11? It's phenomenal. Like it just amazing backed up by not only scripture but prophetic quotes And I just, I would recommend that to again. To understand unless you understand the prophecy, surrounding the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and his brother Hyrum, we can never understand the significance of the martyrdom and why it matters so much. Absolutely.

3:16:20 I'm going to well first, let me ask you, this is there any other points you want to bring up there, I could talk about this forever but that that those were my main points. Okay, I want to wrap up here with bear in my testimony and then I'm going to turn. Turn it over to you to have the final word here Kimberly We look at the martyrdom and we look at the life of Joseph Smith and his Mormons, we rightfully, or thankful. We are rightfully. Ingratitude and hold Joseph Smith in a steam, but as a convert to Mormonism. There have been times when I have either been studying the scriptures or reading about the kind of Life of Joseph Smith. or in prayer, where I am told that Joseph's role not only in the dispensation, but within the effort for salvation exaltation of the Human family is so pivotal. That we sometimes don't do it justice. That we fail to to to recognize just how Central his prophetic role and even his sacrifice was

3:17:50 and I firmly believe that once we can put Joseph in his proper role it can't help but lead us back to our Savior and to our Heavenly Father and so I just want to Bear testimony that I know he was a prophet. He was the prophet amongst profits. He was everything you could hope a prophet would be and in due time I firmly believe. We'll see just how important he was and I would admonish anybody go do your own research on Joseph Smith. Don't take my word for it. You go do your own research and come up with your idea of who the man was because even Joseph alludes to the fact as you as you read that quote from him.

3:18:42 I think very few understand who he really was, but I think that can can still be had even today. I just want everyone to know that I know Joseph was a true prophet and is this dispensation head. And I want to say that in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. And just to add a second, witness to what you said. I just want to quote from dr. And comment section 21. This was a revelation given to Joseph Smith on the day. The church was organized and Jesus Christ said he said wherefore Meaning the church that shall give heed unto all his words, speaking of Joseph and Commandments, which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them walking in all Holiness. Before me for his word, you shall receive as if from my own mouth and all patience and faith. And then Jesus Christ says, for by doing these things, the Gates of Hell shall not Prevail against you. Ye in the Lord, God will disperse the power of Darkness from For you and cause the Heavens to shake for your good and his name's Lori.

3:19:50 And so I just that's the promise, right? You. The Gates of Hell will not Prevail against you, if you give heed to the words of the prophet of this dispensation the servant of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ said this generation will have my word through you. So we want to come to know Jesus Christ, we study the life and the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and we give heed to his word. And keep his Commandments. And I in my life that has been true. I feel like I have gained my test, my own testimony and witness of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith, and I testified that Joseph Smith life does testify of Jesus Christ, and every way including his death, Amen.

3:20:38 Beautiful. Well Kimberly. We've done three and a half hours. That was awesome in all seriousness. I would love to have you back on when Sam publishes this paper. Would you be willing to come back on? Absolutely. Yeah. All right, perfect. Alright, well that's it for this episode. Bye everybody.