Episode # 11 Kimberly Watson Smith: The Martyrdom of Joseph & Hyrum Smith, Debunking the assertions of the "Who Killed Joseph Smith" film, & Prophetic parallels & events of the Martyrdom

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On this episode of the podcast,
I have a fascinating

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conversation with Kimberly
Watson Smith.

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Kimberly has been the leading
voice in to funking the who

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killed Joseph Smith movie, which
purports the theory that John

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Taylor and Willard Richards
killed Joseph and Hyrum.

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We not only talk about that.
But we also go into what the

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doctrine of Christ movement is,
as well as some, fascinating

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prophetic parallels, to the
martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum

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Smith, and that's next on the
Episode of the Mormon Renegade

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podcast.
Your listing to the Mormon,

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Renegade podcast, welcome back
to the Mormon Renegade podcast,

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as always you can get ahold of
me either by email at Mormon

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Renegade at gmail.com.
You can also get a hold of me on

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Instagram and Twitter and getter
under the handle.

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Mormon Renegade.
Also, Have a website up and

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that's Mormon Renegade.com.
So go check that out.

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So today we've got a real
special guest on Kimberly Smith

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has has been gracious enough to
come on the podcast and talk

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with us a little bit and
Kimberly's.

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Really kind of been at the
Forefront of debunking.

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The, the movie by Justin
Griffin, who killed Joseph

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Smith, so Kimberly.
I can't tell you how much I

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appreciate you being here and
making time for me and just fit

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me into your life.
I know that times are In that

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sort of stuff.
So I get it.

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But milk we're having me on no
problem.

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So real quick Kimberly.
What's kind of your Mormon cred

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if you will?
Right, I mean, when when do you

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as?
When you first gained your

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testimony of the restored
gospel?

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That is a really good question.
I, I kind of feel like I have

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for me growing up.
It was unique.

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And I realized that I, you know,
as I've gotten older and have

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met other people.
It's not as unique as I thought,

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but I grew up in a small town in
Idaho, it was multi-generational

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member.
So you know a town that was

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established by Mormon pioneers.
And so the church was just it

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was really prevalent in my area
and I actually grew up in a

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home.
That while both my parents do,

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come from Pioneer ancestry.
They were never active in the

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church. and so, I pretty much
went to church.

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I thought the church myself and
went to church myself at a very

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young age.
And I actually like to say that

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I was born with a testimony
because I was just always drawn

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to the church and to the gospel.
And I learned early on that.

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If I wanted to learn the gospel,
I needed to go to church.

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So someone could teach me to
the, go teach me the gospel,

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because I wasn't taught it in my
home.

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But at the same time, I realized
that that did offer me a unique

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experience where Every
everything that I gained or

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everything I learned about the
gospel and of the restoration

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had to come through like me
searching it out and so I feel

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like at the time growing up that
was I felt like a curse and a

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cross to bear.
But as I've gotten older, I

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realized that that actually was
a blessing in disguise because

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it helped me to go Oddly to the
source for information meeting

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the scriptures and the words of
the Prophet Joseph Smith.

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So I can say that I was
converted to the gospel, through

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the teachings of Joseph Smith,
and that's really where I gave

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my testimony.
That is so cool.

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So if you don't mind me asking,
what town in Idaho?

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Not till your Idaho?
Okay, right on.

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Now, I actually joined the LDS
church when I was in that was

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really my first encounters with
Mormonism when I was living in

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rural Western Idaho, we were
almost to the Oregon border.

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We were in a little town called
called parma's where I joined

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the church.
So, you know, some things really

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resonated with me and, and when
you said, you know, you kind of

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felt like it was a cross to bear
to to go and search that stuff

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out because you had to do it on
your own.

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I can identify with that because
being a convert to Mormonism

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very much the same way.
I'm the only member on either

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side of my family, right?
And so I wasn't going to get

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that.
Anywhere else I had to dig and I

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kind of can can identify with
you a little bit on that feeling

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of man.
This would be easier if there

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was someone at home.
I could talk to about this.

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Having said that, I look back
now. and I think that's why my

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testimony of Joseph Smith and
his prophetic calling and and

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Brigham Young and on down is so
strong because I had to go seek

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their words out and in that
seeking and and having to go to

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original sources, it leaves an
indelible mark Absolutely.

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Yep.
That was that's been my

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experience as well.
The other thing I think it did

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for me as well Kimberly is that
when so I joined the LDS church

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in 1995 And when you know the
internet was out there don't get

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me wrong but a lot of the
anti-mormon stuff hadn't, really

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hit the internet yet by going
and digging out those original

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sources.
I feel like I was kind of

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inoculated a little bit because
a lot of a lot of Mormons get

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ahold of the ante stuff and what
it is is its little Snippets of

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things that you know, Pioneer
prophets have said and it's

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taken completely out of context
and so it rattles members to the

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core, right?
Right?

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I didn't have that because I had
read a lot of that material in

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in context.
I remember when I told my

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mother, I was going to join the
LDS church.

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The first thing she did was sent
us.

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Sent me down to the the parish
priest in the little town.

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I lived in and he busted out the
Journal of discourses on me.

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So I took that back and you
know, talk to my elders and I

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think I accidentally freak them
out as well.

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And finally, an old steak
patriarch You ran me through it

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but when all this information
hits, it wasn't that big of a

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deal to me because I'd already
been exposed to it.

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I knew what it was and I could
see that a lot of these things

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were taken out of context and
just give a little Snippets,

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right?
So I can identify their a lot

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with your story.
So, it seems like you've been at

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the Forefront of this.
This whole thing with Justin

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Griffin, and his hypothesis that
John Taylor and Willard

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Richards, if I'm not mistaken
under the, the direction of

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Brigham Young killed Joseph
Smith, how did you get involved

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in that?
Okay.

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That's a really good question
and it was bike.

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I'm sure as by divine
intervention, but also by chance

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and believe me, this is the last
thing I wanted to take on or it

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was the last thing I wanted to,
to become involved in.

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So just a little bit more about
my background.

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I do volunteer my time to the
Joseph Smith Foundation.

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I don't know if you've Out of
them.

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I have yeah, a great Foundation.
Hannah Stoddard, huh?

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I go to some of the Book of
Mormon evidence conferences and

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I always look forward to any of
their presentations, right?

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So what I love about, the Joseph
Smith Foundation, is that it is

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an organization focused on
supporting and contributing to

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projects found it.
In the words of Jesus Christ,

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and I love their model, their
motto is Vision in light of the

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restoration.
Joseph Smith taught true, that

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confirms the truth taught in the
Bible.

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He taught that a restoration of
the doctrine and church, the

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doctrine and church established
and led by Jesus Christ was

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necessary in the latter days.
As it was in the former ages of

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the earth, Revelation was the
rock Foundation upon which to

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build and so that that's kind of
their Vision.

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So everything they do is, is an
order to to either defend or to

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confirm the revelations.
And and to make the history

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available to people and, you
know, to not be afraid of our

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history because there are real
facts and real data and real

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evidence to back up every part
of the restoration.

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And so that's what I just.
I've just loved the Joseph Smith

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Foundation, I've came in contact
with him.

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I want to say in the around 2013
and ever since then I've just

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volunteered my time and my
research to helping with various

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projects and so leading up to
how I got involved.

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So we do work with a lot of
people that are going through

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faith crisis.
And again because we understand

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that their real answers to every
Faith crisis question.

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And so I want to say around, I
think the around 2020 we started

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getting more emails about
people.

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Questioning if Joseph Smith
really did practice polygamy.

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Hmm.
And then first we it was kind of

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well no one really believes
that.

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Right?
Because I mean every historian

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Ian on the planet knows that
Joseph Smith practice polygamy

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in the historical record was
just you know, filled with

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evidence of that.
So so we're just kind of You

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know, put those to the side
thinking this isn't no one

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really believes that and so but
then emails just started pouring

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in and then it was did Joseph
Smith did Brigham Young really

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killed Joseph Smith and so I
started investigating where this

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was coming from right because we
were just baffled at first like

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really, this is like a thing.
And so I started investigating

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and I noticed on social media
that there was a movement To

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convince others that number one,
Joseph Smith Never practiced

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polygamy and that polygamy
originated with Brigham Young

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and he conspired.
To kill Joseph Smith with the

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other Apostles to take over the
church for power and polygamy.

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And this was also during a time
during, you know, covid when a

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lot of people were Frustrated or
confused about some of the

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policies that were coming out
from the church.

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And so they're so these.
So the doctrine of Christ

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movement had infiltrated, all
these LDS Facebook groups and

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they anybody that expressed
concern or doubt about the

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direction, the church was going,
they basically reached out to

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them privately.
Started recruiting them to their

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group that they had a Facebook
group, the doctrine of Christ,

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under the guise of just
discussing the doctrine of

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Christ.
And then as you started getting

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deep into their there's Umi
things and their Cottage

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meetings.
Then you know they revealed hey

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did you know and and by then
people were you know they were

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kind of just hooked by the just
what they're you know they were

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teaching the true doctrine of
Christ.

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There was nothing wrong with
that but then it was that was

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under that was the guys to get
them, you know, I guess, gain

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their confidence.
And then, they sprung this new

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idea on them and a lot of people
just bought it Hook Line &

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Sinker.
Because Allah, I'm finding that

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this generation knows very
little about our history, and

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that's very concerning to me.
And so without that knowledge of

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History, anyone can come in and
tell them what to believe and

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they can even use sources taken
out of context and and convince

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them of whatever they want them
to believe.

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And I was finding that, that was
that that is what was happening.

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and so I just knew I needed to
take that head on Because right?

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Because I, it was an attack on
our history.

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It was attack on the names and
characters of the profits of the

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restoration.
So I got a quick question for

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you because there's a couple
things there that really jumped

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out at me.
What, why, why are we in this

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position as Mormons, where our
kids aren't familiar with our

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history?
What do you think that's about?

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How how did that happen?
Is that?

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That's a good question.
I think that we We rely upon too

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much upon Scholars to teach us,
right?

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Right, and And so we or we
don't, we don't seek it out, I

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feel like as far as history
history goes like, I've spent a

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lot of time seeking out original
sources and and it's like

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anything else in the gospel.
If you want to know truth, you

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have to go to original sources.
And and some people just they

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don't do that and they do they
they kind of rely upon the

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church or historians.
To tell them our church history

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and and unfortunately the it
right.

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They can't.
They can't tell everything,

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right?
It's a very narrow Narrative of

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what we're, what we're learning.
No, that makes that makes sense.

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So let me ask you this, you said
originally back in 2020.

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I think you said you were
getting a lot of emails about

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did Joseph Smith really practice
plural, marriage, do you think

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that that people didn't know
about that for the same reason

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we just left it to Scholars to
inform us?

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That Joseph Smith did or didn't
practice plural, marriage or.

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And and when I first saw this
start to happen, I was Used

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00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,700
gent.
I mean genuinely confused.

226
00:14:57,700 --> 00:15:00,900
I'm like how do you not know
that Joseph Smith practice

227
00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:05,100
plural marriage.
I mean it was out there so to me

228
00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:09,700
that seemed a little more in
your face than a lot of our

229
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:12,300
other history that the kids
didn't know and I'm curious how

230
00:15:12,300 --> 00:15:15,400
it is.
We Ned that this generation

231
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,400
never really made that
connection that this wasn't a

232
00:15:18,408 --> 00:15:20,900
Brigham Young.
Invention.

233
00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:23,000
So to speak being plural,
marriage.

234
00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:26,000
Right?
That's a really good question.

235
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,400
And so, like I said, for me, it
was never, you know, since I'm

236
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:37,200
an active member of, you know,
the church mainstream Church.

237
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,500
For me, it was never in.
It didn't come as a surprise for

238
00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:46,100
me because like I said, I was
studying Joseph Smith, I was

239
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,300
right, the young age and so I
found that my generation and

240
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:54,000
those younger than me, they
weren't aware just because it

241
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,400
wasn't being taught at church,
right?

242
00:15:56,700 --> 00:16:00,500
And not because they're doing
anything nefarious, it's just

243
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:05,800
that slowly that information
wasn't getting passed down, even

244
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,500
we weren't passing it down as
parents.

245
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:13,100
It's I feel like once the church
stopped practicing polygamy then

246
00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:17,200
you know those Faith tradition
stop being passed down from one

247
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:23,500
generation to the next.
So you come to my generation and

248
00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:27,600
younger there was just no talk
about it, right?

249
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,700
And so then there and then this
generation is finding out for

250
00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:33,000
the first time through
anti-mormon sources.

251
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,400
Joseph Smith is a polygamous and
of course, they make it sound.

252
00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:43,400
you know, they compare it to All
of the bad examples of polygamy

253
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,500
that the Warren Jeffs, you know.
And, and that's what they

254
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:50,900
learned for the first time and
so that does lead people to

255
00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:53,400
Faith prices because they can't
wrap their minds around.

256
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:59,100
The fact that there is You know,
there is the true order of our

257
00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:01,200
marriage.
And then there is also, we have

258
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,599
the counterfeit which, you know,
there's many people that have

259
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,200
the practice, the counterfeit,
like I'm talking about the

260
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,400
Warren Jeffs and she don't even
even people outside of Mormonism

261
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,000
that.
And so, they have this tainted

262
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:21,000
view of what polygamy is when
they have never seen how or read

263
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,900
the revelations, they haven't
read the stories of those who

264
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:29,000
practice plural marriage.
And and and so they just hear of

265
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,800
the narrative from the wrong
sources.

266
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,000
No, I think you're 100% correct.
I was an Elders Quorum

267
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,800
president.
And this came up with brother in

268
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,400
the war that I was attending at
the time where where this was a

269
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,800
concern and we talked about it
at length and it he just kept

270
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,800
saying why didn't I know why,
didn't I know why?

271
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,100
Didn't I know that was the thing
that Coming back and I didn't

272
00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:03,600
have a good answer because in my
Mormon experience, I'd always

273
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,400
know, right?
And so I didn't have a good

274
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,700
answer for it and it's something
that really perplex me but I

275
00:18:07,708 --> 00:18:11,300
think you you answered that
question beautifully in terms of

276
00:18:11,300 --> 00:18:15,700
how that is its Because it is an
uncomfortable question, right?

277
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,800
It can be, if you haven't
studied it out and I think

278
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,600
you're right.
They, they couch it in a very

279
00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:29,900
carnal way, right?
A very, very Fallen version of

280
00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:31,600
it.
They being the, the, you know,

281
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,700
some of the anti-mormon sources.
So, when the first Contact

282
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:39,500
happens, it's never in a good
way, right?

283
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:45,700
So is Tainted at some point.
All right, so you start seeing

284
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,000
this doctrine of Christ movement
come up.

285
00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:50,600
And it's such an innocuous
sounding name, right?

286
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,900
I mean, it's, you know, the
doctrine of Christ who wouldn't

287
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:57,500
love to hear more about the
doctrine of Christ, right?

288
00:18:57,700 --> 00:19:00,600
So, do you ever attend any of
their Zoom meetings, or Cottage

289
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,100
meetings or anything like that?
You ever get like a front row

290
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:05,900
seat to it.
Right.

291
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,000
Well actually, I kind of that
was part of my see, I'm a

292
00:19:09,008 --> 00:19:15,200
researcher, so I do research.
And so, I was researching this

293
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,900
out like, who are they, who's
leading the movement?

294
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:22,400
What do they believe?
And so I joined their Facebook

295
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,400
group, but I was just watching
this was in the beginning.

296
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,700
So I was just watching and
learning their arguments.

297
00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:31,000
And what are they teaching?
And what are they're saying?

298
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:36,700
And, you know, so it's They're
very crafty at what they do.

299
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,900
Let's just, you know, it's
again, like you said, they teach

300
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:43,200
truth, they teach the doctrine
of Christ from The Book of

301
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,500
Mormon, and but then they have a
way of resting the scriptures,

302
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:51,100
right?
Anyone can rest the scriptures.

303
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:58,200
And so, as I'm just watching how
they like their Theology, and

304
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,600
their beliefs were evolving, I
did start listening to some of

305
00:20:02,608 --> 00:20:05,300
their Zoom meetings.
They had them recorded And and

306
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:07,800
on their website and then you
can join them.

307
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,900
Every Monday night, they have a
zoom meeting where the

308
00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:16,100
scriptures are read and
interpreted for them and I

309
00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:20,500
listen to a few of those and
then I actually reached out to

310
00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:23,800
Phil Davis, who is the leader of
the doctrine, of Christ group.

311
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:30,500
And and I just said, hey I want
to understand why so many people

312
00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:35,600
from your group are spreading
the belief that Cat meowing is a

313
00:20:35,608 --> 00:20:37,700
false prophet and that he killed
Joseph Smith.

314
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:39,900
And so he agreed to zoom
meeting.

315
00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:45,500
He gave me his Spiel, which it
sounded like, he was teaching

316
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:48,400
from a script.
And what it was, he was just

317
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,500
explaining his experience where
he claims that he had an angel

318
00:20:53,500 --> 00:21:02,000
appeared to him in 2015.
And bestowed upon him.

319
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,400
The Melchizedek priesthood
through the hands of angels.

320
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,500
And he tried to rest some of the
scriptures and Doctrine and

321
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:14,100
Covenants which I was very
familiar with already because

322
00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:17,400
I've been watching their group
and but I just let him you know

323
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:23,900
give me his spill and then part
of the spill was the script was

324
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,200
that Brigham Young?
Took over the church for power

325
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,900
and polygamy.
The church was rejected an Abu

326
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,100
for failure to be able to Nauvoo
Temple, which we could go on to

327
00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:38,200
that, he's gone that whole
conversation.

328
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,600
Mmm.
And, you know, I and I was very

329
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,200
well-versed on the documents
about plural marriage, because

330
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,900
we had just finished myself with
Hannah solder and Hannah,

331
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:52,400
Stoddard, and Joseph Smith
Foundation.

332
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,700
We had just finished writing.
Well, I did the research, he did

333
00:21:55,700 --> 00:22:00,200
the writing for, The volume one
of Joseph Smith's Pro wives and

334
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:05,000
it was on Helen Mark.
Kimball And so I was very well.

335
00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:09,700
Versed in all of the documents
of Joseph, Smith's four wives.

336
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:13,100
And so, he's sitting there
trying to tell me right?

337
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:14,800
And he doesn't know this right
about me.

338
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,700
And so he's trying to tell me
that all the affidavits that

339
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:23,600
were signed in the late. 1800s,
were all written by the same

340
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,700
person and I was like, I've read
the affidavits and and they're

341
00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:29,200
not, and they don't need to have
trying to say they had the same

342
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,500
handwriting, and they, the women
were coerced and I'm like,

343
00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:36,000
there's no, there's actually no
historical evidence of that.

344
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:41,000
Like don't you think if you
coerced 40 women to sign a

345
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:43,900
affidavits, that one of them
would have written somewhere in

346
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:46,900
a journal that they were coerced
or they were told they had to

347
00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:53,300
write this Eva David and so,
yeah, he he didn't know what he

348
00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:56,000
was getting into.
I kind of feel bad looking back,

349
00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:59,000
but because I would feel bad, I
that's awesome.

350
00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:03,300
I wouldn't feel bad one bit like
just because I and so on once I

351
00:23:03,308 --> 00:23:07,900
started questioning him with and
I had actual Sources and he

352
00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:09,800
started realizing that, I knew
what I was talking about.

353
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,600
He quickly ended the meeting
whoo-hoo.

354
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,500
Okay, so something else that
jumped out at me there of those

355
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:22,900
40 women that signed affidavits.
It's my understanding and you

356
00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:25,200
can correct me if I'm wrong
here, not one of them, had a bad

357
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,700
thing to say about Joseph, even
after he died.

358
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,000
Nope.
If you look at other movements

359
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,800
that practice, you know,
tyrannical.

360
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,700
I don't know tactics if you will
let's just look at the flds for

361
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:45,900
example, right?
Warren Jeffs granted.

362
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:48,400
There were a lot of people that
stood by him but as soon as he

363
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,900
was no longer a threat, right
when Once, he's in jail, you

364
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:54,900
have a ton of people willing to
tell their story, a ton of women

365
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:58,900
willing to tell their story.
And he's just in jail.

366
00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:03,300
Still exercising Authority.
Now Joseph Smith is dead.

367
00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:08,600
So At any point those women I'm
just guessing would have felt

368
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,900
safe in saying if you know, hey,
Joseph did X, Y and Z.

369
00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:17,600
If that was the case, if he was,
you know, That guy, right?

370
00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:20,200
So they could have came out
against him there then Brigham.

371
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,400
If you're afraid to bring them,
bring them takes the Saints.

372
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,300
West, right?
A lot of them stay behind.

373
00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:28,600
They could have signed off at
any point saying, hey, this

374
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,300
isn't correct.
This is wrong.

375
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,600
So good on you for knowing your
sources enough to hit him with

376
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,100
it.
I'm interested in this meeting

377
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:40,800
at some point.
Were you able to get a bead on

378
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,800
Phil Davis about?
Did he really believed the

379
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,800
things that he He said, or do
you think that he was?

380
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,500
More calculated than that,
right?

381
00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:53,600
Do you think he knew he was
lying?

382
00:24:54,800 --> 00:25:00,800
I this is just opinion, okay?
And and this may be a little bit

383
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:06,200
of a judgment but because I have
listened to him multiple times.

384
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,300
Like I said, I, you know, I
randomly log onto their Zoom

385
00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:14,900
meetings because anyone can
attend him and so far they have

386
00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:16,600
never kicked me off.
Maybe they don't realize.

387
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,200
It's me on there anyway.
That's neither here nor there.

388
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:28,100
But it's interesting he sticks
to a very scripted scripted

389
00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:33,700
dialogue, okay?
Like it never and to me that is

390
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,800
very calculated.
It never feels authentic.

391
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,100
It always feels like tell his
story.

392
00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:45,500
Probably half a dozen times now
and it's almost word for word,

393
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:49,800
the same the same story and it
feels scripted.

394
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:56,800
It feels calculated and it's
just I mean it's actually very

395
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,600
bizarre story if you listen to
his entire story I mean not only

396
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:06,100
did an angel come to him and you
know, and I believe in angels

397
00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:09,600
and and I actually asked him if
he tested the angel because I'm

398
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,600
a Joseph Smith, specifically
taught We need to test Angels,

399
00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:16,900
did you test the angel?
And he kind of skirted around

400
00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:19,100
that question.
So I'm like, okay you haven't

401
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:25,600
tested the angel right?
And and then so it wasn't just

402
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,500
an angel appearing to him.
It was then the idea that the

403
00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:33,900
heavens were unsealed for the
first time since the death of

404
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:37,100
Joseph Smith.
Meaning the heavens have been

405
00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:39,800
closed right.
There was no Melchizedek

406
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,600
priesthood on the earth.
After the death of Joseph Smith,

407
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,900
he is helping to re restore that
it's being re restored through

408
00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:51,000
him.
The Melchizedek priesthood.

409
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:56,200
I mean I'm like wow this is the
most elaborate story I've ever

410
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:03,600
heard like and his experience is
just really Sensational so he

411
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,900
also claims that not only Do
they have Angels restore?

412
00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:12,800
The neck has increased it to
him, he had an out-of-body

413
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,900
experience.
He was taken by Jesus Christ to

414
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,300
God the Father where he was
ordained by God himself.

415
00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:25,500
Not Jesus Christ, God, the
Father.

416
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,200
I mean, we don't even have that,
Joseph Smith never even claim

417
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,200
that, right?
So, I'm just in awe, like and

418
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,600
then he also claims that he
asked to be a witness of the

419
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,600
atonement.
So Christ took him and he was

420
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,900
able to see in third person, the
atonement of Jesus Christ, but

421
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:48,900
then his Spirit entered,
Christ's body and he actually

422
00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:51,100
got to feel the Pains of the
atonement.

423
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,800
And to me, that was the most
Blasphemous thing I've ever

424
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,700
heard in my life.
Yeah, because that's the

425
00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:02,000
atonements predicated on the
fact, especially the portion In

426
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,600
The Garden of Gethsemane that
only Christ and Christ Alone

427
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:11,500
could withstand that, I agree
with you that cool.

428
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,700
Well, not only that, it's it.
That's called possession.

429
00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:18,600
And our snow spirit is ever
supposed to possess anybody's

430
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,600
body, let alone.
Jesus Christ.

431
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,100
So right there, I'm like, you're
talking about demonic

432
00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:25,200
possession.
You're talking about out-of-body

433
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,500
experiences, which Astral
projection, which is part of the

434
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:33,400
occult.
So, I know right there, that his

435
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,800
experiences.
Are false, okay?

436
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:41,400
And I know their faults to on
another principle because

437
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:45,100
Brigham or excuse me.
Joseph Smith taught in the

438
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:48,400
school of the prophets and
around 1832.

439
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:54,700
He said, No, Angel will ever
come and ordained any man wants

440
00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:56,400
because they have already
ordained me.

441
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,100
And they will not interfere with
the priest has already been

442
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:05,300
restored to this earth.
So yeah.

443
00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:11,800
He's He's definitely on Shaky
Ground, at least Shaky Ground.

444
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:15,300
Um, who is Phil Davis before he
started all this?

445
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:17,500
Do we know what his profession
was do?

446
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:21,500
We know what he was like?
Before he started this?

447
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:27,400
The this movement, what I know
about Phil Davis, so he's 49.

448
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,000
I think he's turning 50.
He's never been married.

449
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,100
He was, I think he owned a
chocolate factory in Utah.

450
00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:36,500
County.
So, if you Google Phil Davis,

451
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:38,900
Chocolate Factory, you can
probably find information about

452
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:40,600
him.
I don't know if he still does

453
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,200
that.
And that's actually his story is

454
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,600
that the angel first appeared to
him outside of his Chocolate

455
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,900
Factory.
Oh, and get this.

456
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,800
I was going to say, I just
immediately went to Willy Wonka.

457
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,200
I don't know why I have a
migraine work.

458
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:57,000
Okay, cool.
Go ahead.

459
00:29:57,100 --> 00:30:00,100
Sorry.
This is what I find interesting

460
00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:04,400
too is that he said that the
when the angel first came to

461
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,800
them, it was outside of his
Chocolate Factory.

462
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,700
He didn't know.
It was an angel at first, this

463
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:11,900
man had just like coming out of
his eyes.

464
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,400
Came up to him and said, do you
have any money?

465
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,300
And I'm like, okay, you don't
see the irony, right?

466
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,900
Like anyone who's been to the
temple should know right there.

467
00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:29,500
That was a big big red flag.
Those Angel literally says, do

468
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:33,800
you have any money?
I was like, okay you guys not

469
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,200
getting it basically the Angels
revealing to him who he is,

470
00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:39,900
right?
Right.

471
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:42,700
In the most blatant of terms,
right?

472
00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:45,900
Right.
And so I Yeah.

473
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,800
Wow, the right from the get-go.
I was like, okay, this guy, you

474
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,200
know, I kind of actually feel
bad for him because I do think

475
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,700
he is, he's deceived, he's been
deceived by a false angel of

476
00:30:56,700 --> 00:31:00,400
Light.
And you just know that based on

477
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:06,700
his fruits, right, hmm,
historian is fruits without his

478
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:09,400
narrative.
Does not make sense unless he

479
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,800
throws Brigham Young under the
bus, unless he turns bringing

480
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:19,400
young, into the villain and and
John Taylor will Richards into

481
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,700
murderers with without that
belief.

482
00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:27,600
Phil Davis is narrative, it just
Falls, right?

483
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,300
Because His narrative is that
the church lost the Melchizedek

484
00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:35,900
priesthood.
At the death of Joseph Smith.

485
00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:40,100
That Brigham Young took over the
church for power and polygamy.

486
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:46,000
The 12 is serp, the leadership
of the church and so the church

487
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,200
no longer has priesthood Keys,
anything, and and the temple

488
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,600
ordinances are all false to they
don't believe in Temple

489
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,100
ordinances.
And so, the only way that you

490
00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:58,900
can get people in your movement
to believe that to believe any

491
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:02,400
of that or to believe that he
now has milk has a previous in

492
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,400
is if you take out Brigham Young
right.

493
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,700
Because Brigham Young is our
priesthood linked to Joseph

494
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:08,900
Smith.
Right.

495
00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:16,200
He's the, he's the linchpin that
which he's attacking, right?

496
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,800
He feels like if it's a train,
if you will that's carrying the

497
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,000
rest of the cars, right?
And whether whether it's the LDS

498
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,600
church or one of the the
fundamentalist lines or I should

499
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,500
say, most of the fundamentalist
lines, they all hinge on Brigham

500
00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:36,500
Young.
So you pull that PIN And you

501
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:40,200
then have you can take it
wherever you want.

502
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:47,100
Does that make sense, right?
And so, this does Phil Davis at

503
00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:50,200
all or the doctrine of Christ
movement, do they at all?

504
00:32:53,300 --> 00:32:57,700
Try to recast Joseph Smith In a
Different Light than what sound

505
00:32:57,700 --> 00:33:03,400
historical.
President shows us, do they try

506
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,800
to make Joseph Smith appear
different?

507
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:09,700
Oh.
Well, absolutely because what

508
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,400
what people don't realize also
is if you take away Brigham

509
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,700
Young Brigham.
Young is essentially he's the

510
00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:21,700
one that is carrying forth all
of the revelations, right?

511
00:33:21,700 --> 00:33:26,800
He's a and he's the one that is
he's basically a testator to all

512
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,800
of the teachings of Joseph
Smith, so Brigham Young.

513
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,300
Didn't teach anything that he
didn't first, learn from Joseph

514
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:33,800
Smith.
So you take that Brigham Young.

515
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,800
You take out almost all of the
teachings of the Prophet Joseph

516
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,400
Smith and so they're Joseph
Smith.

517
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:45,600
They use Joseph Smith name but
they do not know anything about

518
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,500
Joseph Smith.
They've rejected 90% of his

519
00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:54,000
teachings.
And is Revelations. 90% of them

520
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,700
including Temple ordinances
baptisms for the Dead.

521
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:01,500
You just almost everything they
rejected.

522
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:05,900
So they basically made a Joseph
Smith in their own image and

523
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:11,000
they claim to be followers and
Defenders of the what they say

524
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,500
is the real Joseph Smith Thanks
for answering that.

525
00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:20,000
The reason I asked that question
is this isn't a new pattern,

526
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,699
right?
It's new in the sense of its in

527
00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:28,100
Mormonism now, but the pattern
itself was very familiar to me.

528
00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:32,400
So my life is a series of
inflection points and I remember

529
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,900
one of those inflection points
was, I mean a buddy.

530
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,800
Probably.
I don't know, almost 10 years

531
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,400
after me.
And my wife were married back in

532
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,400
about.
Or we decide, we're going to see

533
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,400
a football game.
I'm a huge Packers Fan.

534
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,699
He was a huge Philadelphia
Eagles fan and we go to

535
00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:51,900
Philadelphia to watch this
Monday Night Football game.

536
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,900
And I go into we said, you know,
we're going to leave a couple

537
00:34:56,900 --> 00:34:58,200
days early.
We're going to see the sights,

538
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,500
this will be great and I go into
Independence Hall and when I set

539
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:07,100
foot in Independence Hall, I get
Goose Bumps thinking about it

540
00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:09,900
all over again.
The spirit tells me, something

541
00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:13,200
huge happened right here, right
now, I've always been a history

542
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,500
guy, not necessarily
revolutionary period to that

543
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:20,500
point.
It was more Western Civ but All

544
00:35:20,500 --> 00:35:23,700
of a sudden.
I'm like, wow, the spirit is so

545
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:25,700
strong here.
So I learn all I can about the

546
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:29,000
founders.
And as I watch my kids going to

547
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:35,300
school being taught history.
They don't, they are teaching a

548
00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:39,500
history of the founders, that is
vastly different than what

549
00:35:39,500 --> 00:35:44,500
actual history is.
And so what they did is they

550
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:47,400
discredited the founders and
when you start to look at why

551
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,400
they did that, why they
discredited them there?

552
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,900
There was a push starting clear
back in the, the early 1900's

553
00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:57,500
where there was a group of
people who want to progress past

554
00:35:57,500 --> 00:35:59,900
the Constitution, and the
founding documents.

555
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,200
And in order to do that, they
Had to discredit the founders

556
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,000
first.
And so, when I first came upon

557
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:11,700
this doctrine of Christ movement
and start to see some of the

558
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:14,300
things, it was a very familiar
pattern.

559
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,900
Take out the founders, so to
speak and then you can rewrite

560
00:36:19,900 --> 00:36:23,100
it however you want.
Right?

561
00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:24,800
And it's a very familiar
pattern.

562
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,100
They're not taking out Joseph
Smith.

563
00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:30,200
Like they did the founders, but
they are taking out the, you

564
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,400
know, the successors Brigham
Young and John Taylor and they

565
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,000
have recast Joseph Smith in a
different white where he's not

566
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,600
the same guy, it's the same
pattern.

567
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:45,200
And I would dare to say it's
damn near demonic, I agree.

568
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,400
I think it's very diabolical and
I just want to add a few.

569
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,100
Yes, I do our point to that is,
okay?

570
00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:57,300
You think of Which teachings do
we have of Jesus Christ, that

571
00:36:57,300 --> 00:37:04,400
came directly from Jesus Christ.
Directly like he's talking to me

572
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:10,100
from the hand of Jesus Christ.
Kind of wish I would have to

573
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:12,800
say, the closest thing that we
would have would be the Doctrine

574
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,300
and Covenants, right?
Well, I meant, I'm speaking of

575
00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:19,300
the, of the New Testament, the
New Testament.

576
00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:23,500
So, it's kind of a trick
question, but I've asked that

577
00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:27,200
two people in it.
I think that when you understand

578
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,300
this, we have the team, what do
we know about the life of Jesus

579
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:34,600
Christ?
Because it was written by the

580
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,300
apostles, the apostles, right?
So you take out the Muscles.

581
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:41,500
What left?
We have?

582
00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:44,200
Jesus Christ.
Good point.

583
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,900
That's a grackle until so that
that that's the irony, right?

584
00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:54,800
Is that Joe like you said,
whatever they don't like about

585
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,000
Mormonism, they can blame on
Brigham Young.

586
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,500
They make him the villain and
then whatever they do like about

587
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:02,800
Mormonism.
They say oh yeah they attribute

588
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,500
it to Joseph Smith.
So here's the thing is that none

589
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:11,600
of the teaching them Vast
majority of the teachings that

590
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,600
we have of Joseph Smith.
You know, is we should the, the

591
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,400
doctrine of covenants, obviously
and you know because he's

592
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,500
speaking he's he is the voice of
Jesus Christ to this generation

593
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:30,000
but the vast majority of Joseph
Smith teaching has come to us

594
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:35,600
through scribes, right?
Rose that hurt him personally

595
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,500
teach and then they went and
they either wrote it.

596
00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:41,600
In the history or they wrote it
in their journals.

597
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,500
So, you take out.
So if Brigham Young and all of

598
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:54,400
the Apostles, Evil you, you take
away almost every teaching of

599
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,400
the Prophet Joseph Smith.
That's right, because that's

600
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,500
where that's where his teachings
are coming from.

601
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,300
And I just have a quote here,
actually, a prophecy from Joseph

602
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:11,400
Smith, if I can write right
before, right before his death.

603
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:15,200
So we know that the Prophet
Joseph Smith, he commanded that.

604
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,700
The records of the church to be
kept preserved and accurately

605
00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:23,600
transmitted in Nauvoo had six.
Scribes who worked Around the

606
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,000
Clock.
Burning candles until midnight

607
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,500
to bring the history up to date.
He also charged these scribes

608
00:39:30,500 --> 00:39:33,400
with the duty of updating the
history after his death.

609
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:40,100
Joseph Smith recorded, he said,
quote, I told Phelps, a dream

610
00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:43,200
that the history must go ahead
before anything else.

611
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:48,100
Then, Joseph said, here, let me
prophesy, the time will come.

612
00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:51,800
When if you neglect to do this
thing you will fall by the hands

613
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,200
of unrighteous men, it's a close
quote.

614
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,600
Wow.
So the history is actually very,

615
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,100
it was very important to Joseph
Smith and he had great anxiety,

616
00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:07,100
about making sure the history
was Preserved, and then, and

617
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:10,100
then kept up to date.
So he has put all of his

618
00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:13,300
confidence in Brigham, Young in
Willard Richards in William

619
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:16,700
Clinton and others to preserve
this history.

620
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,300
So you take out Willard Richards
now.

621
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:23,400
Right, right.
You take out the history.

622
00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:29,600
So I just want to read this.
Also this quote, from Joseph

623
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:35,200
Smith about Willard Richards.
He said I've been searching all

624
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,800
my life to find a man after my
own heart, whom I could trust

625
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,600
with my business and all things
and I have found him dr.

626
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,800
Willard Richards is the man and
that's found in journal history

627
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,300
of the church.
November 21st 1841, So he had

628
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,800
complete confidence in Willard
Richards.

629
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,400
To keep the history of the
church up to date.

630
00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:01,500
So another tactic that the
doctrine of Christ group uses is

631
00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:07,300
they say, look, we're going
Myung revised the history of the

632
00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:09,100
church.
He changed the history of the

633
00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:12,300
church.
Well, if you look in the 1828

634
00:41:12,300 --> 00:41:15,800
dictionary, what the word
revised mean, it means to edit

635
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:20,600
or to update.
So what they say revised,

636
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,500
they're saying we're gonna young
change the history of the

637
00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:27,100
church.
To make him look like the

638
00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:32,900
victor.
And so, if we have to understand

639
00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:36,000
how important the history was to
the Prophet Joseph Smith and who

640
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,000
he trusted with that history.
And like he said, if they didn't

641
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,100
do this, the Saints will fall
into the hands of unrighteous

642
00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:46,000
men.
And I feel like that is being

643
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,300
fulfilled today.
If we do not study our history,

644
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:52,300
we fall by the hands of
unrighteous men, who will come

645
00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:57,300
in and pervert and distort our
history and in basically

646
00:41:57,300 --> 00:42:00,900
interpret it according Two,
however, they want to interpret

647
00:42:00,900 --> 00:42:03,200
it and Lead Saints away from the
truth.

648
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,700
I couldn't agree more.
I got another question.

649
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:12,100
Why why is it?
Do you think that the, the this

650
00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:18,000
group went after the more
conservative members of the LDS

651
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:23,100
church or, you know, the ones
that that seemed the most

652
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:26,900
stalwart, right?
Because to me, it's almost a

653
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:29,400
paradox and I'm wondering if you
could shed some light I'm light

654
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:34,100
on this for me.
It seems like it would be

655
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:37,900
counterintuitive because as I've
looked at the doctrine of Christ

656
00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:41,800
movement, and I've kind of
studied what their teachings are

657
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:43,900
there.
Painting a picture of a very

658
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:51,500
Progressive Joseph Smith, right?
And it makes like, Millennials

659
00:42:51,500 --> 00:42:54,200
today.
I could see them really favoring

660
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,100
this version, right?
Because they're not fond of

661
00:42:57,100 --> 00:42:59,300
Brigham Young, right?
They call them a racist, they

662
00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:04,200
call them.
You know, a, you know what's the

663
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,300
other word I was looking for,
oh, you know, insulting to

664
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:14,000
women, they paint him as just
really a bad guy.

665
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,400
Most folks who were from the
conservative end of Mormonism,

666
00:43:20,500 --> 00:43:22,900
didn't have those problems with
Brigham Young.

667
00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:26,800
So how is it that they go after
the conservative members and

668
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,700
find an audience there?
Yeah, that that's a really good

669
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:33,500
question.
That that's kind of the fun Amon

670
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:38,300
on that I watched is that they
were dividing the conservative

671
00:43:38,300 --> 00:43:39,900
movement, you know?
Those, that were the Freedom

672
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:42,900
Fighters that there were out
protesting the masks and the

673
00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:47,400
vaccines.
And so, I think that they, it

674
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,600
was the perfect opportunity
almost like the perfect storm

675
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,500
with wind covid happened in the
church, you know, took a very

676
00:43:55,500 --> 00:44:00,600
strong stance in favor of masks
and vaccines And I think that

677
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,600
those that didn't have a
testimony of the restoration,

678
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,600
that those conservative members
that didn't have their own,

679
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:17,400
testimony were able to be be
deceived by the idea that you

680
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,900
know, they started planning into
their minds, that secret

681
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:25,500
combinations of taken over the
top leaders of the church and

682
00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:28,600
then it was, oh, but did you
know, it started actually with

683
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:29,400
Brigham Young.
Ng.

684
00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:35,400
And so they just kind of fell
for the conspiracy so, so they

685
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,100
kind of Drew them out with, you
know, with this division that

686
00:44:39,100 --> 00:44:43,000
was happening and then in the
process of being like the guys,

687
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,800
with open arms saying, come
here, you're right.

688
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,200
Let me give you a hug, then they
go ahead and they say this

689
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,900
started way earlier and that's
how they discredit Brigham

690
00:44:51,900 --> 00:44:55,600
Young.
So maybe, so maybe, maybe these

691
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,100
are conservative members that
have been using borrowed light

692
00:44:58,100 --> 00:45:01,500
for a while, right?
Maybe the ones who just have

693
00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,600
relied on the testimony of their
parents or grandparents about

694
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:09,200
the early Pioneer, prophets of
Mormon dumb, so to speak.

695
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,900
Is that a fair assessment?
I think so.

696
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:15,000
And I mean, Heber C, Kimball
actually did prophesy, that that

697
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,100
was going to happen.
He said the time will come when

698
00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:19,800
you can no longer stand on
borrowed light and he said a

699
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,800
test.
A test is coming and I feel like

700
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,000
this is a fulfillment of
Prophecy that for too long.

701
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,600
We have relied upon borrowed
light.

702
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:35,900
Testimony of our fathers we
didn't we weren't seeking out.

703
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,000
You know, the truth.
We weren't speaking out.

704
00:45:40,100 --> 00:45:44,400
Our own, his our own history.
Like, I absolutely love our

705
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,200
history.
I, we have nothing to be ashamed

706
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,400
of in our history is filled with
stories of Faith, courage,

707
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,700
sacrifice the lives of.
Even, I would even venture to

708
00:45:55,700 --> 00:45:59,800
say that you would not have a
problem with the idea of plural

709
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,700
marriage.
If you just studied the women,

710
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,300
like I said, we just finished
the book on Hell Mark Kimball

711
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,900
most people don't know.
She was the 14 year old girl,

712
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:09,700
right?
That was married to Joseph.

713
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,500
Most people talk about Joseph
Smith in the 14 year old without

714
00:46:14,500 --> 00:46:18,200
ever knowing her name and they,
then they paint her as a victim.

715
00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:22,400
Well, Helen Mark, Kimball she
was the most Ardent defender of

716
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,300
her marriage.
She wrote to pamphlets.

717
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:29,400
Why we practice for marriage and
what Joseph Smith taught about

718
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:34,900
plural marriage?
She not only that, she married

719
00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:37,600
horse Whitney and actually
encouraged him to take on more

720
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,100
wives because she had such a
testimony The principal and that

721
00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:44,800
didn't come to her without
sacrifice.

722
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:48,400
She actually fasted for seven
days before she gained her.

723
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,700
Witness of celestial, / marriage
and agreed to be sealed to the

724
00:46:51,700 --> 00:46:56,500
prophet when she was just 14 15,
that marriage was never

725
00:46:56,500 --> 00:46:59,400
consummated.
And so, most people don't even

726
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:04,100
know that aspect and so they
just, it's easy for someone like

727
00:47:04,500 --> 00:47:08,400
Phil Davis or Justin Griffin to
come along and say the Joseph

728
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,300
Smith, I know wasn't a The file,
right?

729
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:14,000
He wasn't, he never married a 14
year old girl, because that

730
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,800
would make him a pedophile.
Will they leave out who she was?

731
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,000
Who was the 14 year old?
And the fact that the marriage

732
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,100
was never consummated?
That doesn't make Joseph Smith a

733
00:47:24,107 --> 00:47:29,600
pedophile, it means that he was.
He entered into the higher order

734
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,200
of celestial marriage.
He was still the hell Mark

735
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:37,900
Kimball and so their families
will be United for eternity.

736
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,700
So they completely A just
discount, her own testimony and

737
00:47:42,700 --> 00:47:47,400
I just say, read the testimonies
of the women read their lives.

738
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,600
They are the second half of the
restoration and and not only

739
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:58,100
will you you gain a testimony of
of their character but of the

740
00:47:58,100 --> 00:48:02,900
truth that they stood by No, I
couldn't agree more.

741
00:48:03,700 --> 00:48:06,500
I want to say I want to say
this, right?

742
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:14,500
There's no reason on this Earth
at this point that a 14 year old

743
00:48:14,500 --> 00:48:18,000
should ever get married?
Having said that it's a

744
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:22,300
different world in the early to
mid-1800s, right?

745
00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:28,000
And so historical context
matters and you gave you gave a

746
00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:32,200
fantastic account.
Historical context, right?

747
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,400
So let's just look at Helen Mark
Kimball as an example.

748
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,200
This is somebody who even what
we would consider a young age

749
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:48,500
today fast for seven days.
Look there's not a lot of kids

750
00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:51,000
today at that age who are
fasting for seven days to get an

751
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,000
answer about things, right?
So they were growing up faster

752
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,400
in those days.
The other thing was again, the

753
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,300
the marriage was never
consummated.

754
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,600
So you look at all of that,
right?

755
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:07,700
You look at the totality of
history and you're stretching to

756
00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:10,000
call.
Let me rephrase that you're not

757
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,000
stretching.
You are lying.

758
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,500
If, you know, the, the context
that Joseph Smith was a Was a

759
00:49:17,508 --> 00:49:19,400
pedophile.
It doesn't hold water.

760
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:21,800
Exactly.
Yep.

761
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:27,700
So today as it functions.
Now, what would you say is the

762
00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:32,300
main doctrinal thrust of the
doctrine of Christ movement?

763
00:49:32,300 --> 00:49:34,400
What?
What are they doing now?

764
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,900
I mean, how are they different
than than, than your

765
00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:42,400
run-of-the-mill LDS?
Member your, you know, bringing

766
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,200
might fundamentalist what what's
different there other than

767
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:47,200
they've taken.
Anout.

768
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,700
Brigham.
Well, they're well, they're very

769
00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:54,100
different.
And I mean, this is a growing

770
00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:56,200
movement.
I am just astonished.

771
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,800
It's still growing.
Oh yeah, it probably.

772
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,400
I know they have for sure at
least 900 active members, but

773
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:09,200
2,000, 2,000 believing members
meaning.

774
00:50:09,700 --> 00:50:12,200
They believe their narrative
about Brigham Young.

775
00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:14,500
The Joseph Smith Never practice
before marriage.

776
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,000
They denounced, like I said,
Ordinances.

777
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,900
They no longer were the temple.
Garment I would say the main but

778
00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:24,800
their main.
I think the most concerning

779
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:29,900
teaching for me is that they are
teaching the doctrine of

780
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:35,200
reincarnation.
They believe Phil Davis believes

781
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,700
that he is lime and white
reincarnated.

782
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,100
And that Joseph Smith has
returned to the Earth.

783
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,500
Reincarnated meaning, he's was
born.

784
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:50,700
Again, in a different body that
he's been awakened to who he his

785
00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:53,600
past life was.
So Phil Davis is working through

786
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,000
this reincarnated Joseph Smith
to establish a terrestrial order

787
00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:03,100
of the church and that they have
the mechanic priesthood that

788
00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:11,100
nobody else on Earth has Wow.
Yep.

789
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,900
Jeez.
Okay so when does Justin Griffin

790
00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:18,100
come on the scene then with the
doctrine of Christ.

791
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:24,700
So for my understanding so
Joseph, Justin Griffin was an

792
00:51:24,700 --> 00:51:29,300
admin of the doctrine of Christ
just Facebook group and and you

793
00:51:29,300 --> 00:51:33,900
know he tried to he tries to
separate his movie from the

794
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:37,500
doctrine of Christ movement but
you Separate them.

795
00:51:37,500 --> 00:51:42,100
Because like I said, the
doctrine of Christ movement is

796
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:44,700
based on the idea that Brigham
Young is not the rightful

797
00:51:44,700 --> 00:51:47,300
successor and doesn't have keys
and doesn't have authority.

798
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:51,900
And actually, Justin Griffin
before who killed Joseph Smith,

799
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,200
he actually helped to release
and produce.

800
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:03,000
Phil Davis has movie, The Return
of Joseph Smith, where It's on

801
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,300
YouTube, you can find it, it's
like 30 minutes long, it's

802
00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:06,600
called The Return of Joseph
Smith.

803
00:52:07,100 --> 00:52:12,300
So feel Dave, Justin Griffin
help Phil Davis to, I don't know

804
00:52:12,308 --> 00:52:15,200
if he helped them to produce it,
but they did show it in a

805
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,000
theater with had invited
audience.

806
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:25,500
I'm Justin Griffin is on there.
What is it called there the

807
00:52:25,500 --> 00:52:30,300
movie.
The movie who killed Joseph

808
00:52:30,300 --> 00:52:31,500
Smith.
Yeah.

809
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,200
And so it's basically no on the
return of Joseph.

810
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,400
Oh, I haven't seen that one with
Phil Davis, so he helps the

811
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,100
latest release this movie where
he goes through.

812
00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:46,600
Basically his Narrative of how
the church lost the priesthood.

813
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:52,100
The the Jesus Christ form of the
name, from the church that, you

814
00:52:52,100 --> 00:52:56,700
know, the Brigham Young is in a
posture of serp, the authority.

815
00:52:57,900 --> 00:53:00,400
That's what it was about.
So before Justin Griffin was

816
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,300
involved in who killed Joseph
Smith, he was involved in that

817
00:53:03,300 --> 00:53:06,100
so you can't separate them.
Even though he tries really hard

818
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,700
not to associate his movie, with
the doctrine of Christ move it.

819
00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:13,700
They're one in the same is what
I'm saying.

820
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,800
So even if even at the movie
premiere, it premiered, January

821
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,300
13th, 2020, 2022, and someone
attended.

822
00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:26,500
And they did report back to me
and said that Justin Griffin at

823
00:53:26,500 --> 00:53:29,900
the premiere.
So they show this movie, they

824
00:53:30,300 --> 00:53:32,200
the, in a theater, they rented a
theater.

825
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,400
We had to buy a ticket, then
they held a Q&A.

826
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,800
After he said, the Justin
Griffin was mocking the temple

827
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:45,200
garment They were accusing
Brigham, Young of being a false

828
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,500
prophet and Mastermind behind
Joseph Smith and Hiram's murder

829
00:53:49,300 --> 00:53:52,700
and whose motive they claimed
was wealth power and women and

830
00:53:52,700 --> 00:53:56,300
that all this would come out in
the sequel in the who could

831
00:53:56,300 --> 00:53:59,300
Joseph Smith part two.
So they are planning a part 2

832
00:53:59,700 --> 00:54:02,000
and this was at the premiere.
So this is what they were

833
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,600
alleging at the premiere and
they declared that the Church of

834
00:54:06,607 --> 00:54:09,300
Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints was the mother of harlots

835
00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:13,500
spoken of in Scripture.
And the keys and the president

836
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,700
and the power and authority
never traveled west of the

837
00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:21,700
Mississippi.
So, wow, once again, you can't,

838
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,900
he tries hard to separate
himself, like this movie had

839
00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:28,100
nothing to do with that
movement, and he just wanted to

840
00:54:28,100 --> 00:54:30,800
find out the truth about
Carthage that, that's what he

841
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:35,600
alleges.
But Jeez.

842
00:54:35,700 --> 00:54:38,400
I think he's being very
dishonest and misleading when he

843
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,900
claims that he he just wants the
truth.

844
00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:43,600
I don't think he wants the
truth.

845
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:48,800
I think that he's pushing a
narrative and he's using The

846
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,900
power of media.
Right.

847
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:57,200
And sensationalism to entrap
people into this narrative.

848
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,500
And again, who are drawn to it,
those that don't know our

849
00:55:02,500 --> 00:55:06,300
history, right, studied Brigham,
Young haven't studied the

850
00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:09,100
revelations.
Those are the people that are

851
00:55:09,100 --> 00:55:13,400
easily deceived duped, whatever
you want to call it with this

852
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,400
narrative.
I agree.

853
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:24,300
I agree 110% with you.
I I still look, you know, keep

854
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:26,200
tabs on Mormon Twitter if you
will.

855
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,500
Right.
I just look and I Of just up the

856
00:55:29,500 --> 00:55:35,600
hill from Brigham Young
University and it's just not

857
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,500
this.
It seems like almost every bit

858
00:55:38,500 --> 00:55:40,900
of our history is under attack,
right?

859
00:55:41,300 --> 00:55:44,100
It doesn't matter what it is.
I just finished the podcast last

860
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:50,000
night where we were.
We felt like we did a good job

861
00:55:50,100 --> 00:55:53,000
of showing the difference
between the United order and law

862
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,500
of Consecration and communism
and socialism, because I see a

863
00:55:56,500 --> 00:55:58,300
lot of tweets and a lot of kids
coming.

864
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,300
In out now, saying really, this
is just socialism with the

865
00:56:02,300 --> 00:56:05,900
religious bent, right?
It's horrifying.

866
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,300
It's a horror show.
And I'm like, no, no.

867
00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:12,600
That's different and I think
this, this is just one more

868
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:17,700
example, like you were saying
of, maybe adults and kids, who

869
00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:21,700
don't have a good handle on what
our history is and how easy it

870
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:25,000
is for them to be given a
different narrative, especially

871
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,200
if it fits within the context
today of, whoa.

872
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,700
ISM progressivism, and the whole
thing we saw progressivism come

873
00:56:32,700 --> 00:56:36,800
for our, you know, the founding
fathers in our founding

874
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,000
documents and now they're coming
from Mormonism.

875
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,200
It's in their, in their
crosshairs.

876
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:43,600
And I'm not saying that they're
working together.

877
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,900
I'm just saying that the
adversary is very good about

878
00:56:45,900 --> 00:56:48,900
drawing together his armies to
go do this.

879
00:56:51,100 --> 00:56:56,200
So well this may be of interest
to your to your listeners.

880
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,700
I don't know.
So one of the books that the

881
00:56:59,700 --> 00:57:03,300
Joseph Smith Foundation role
actually it was a two-part

882
00:57:03,300 --> 00:57:07,500
series, it's called Faith crisis
and they actually go through and

883
00:57:07,500 --> 00:57:10,900
show how there is an attentional
Progressive rewriting of our

884
00:57:10,900 --> 00:57:14,800
history and that's what's coming
out of BYU's this new

885
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:19,200
Progressive, Mormon history.
That was it's basically, you

886
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:25,800
know, Scholars, who Who don't
really also have a strong faith

887
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:30,400
in our foundation of the church.
And they've, they've Rewritten

888
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,500
our history from, pretty much a
progressive angle.

889
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:39,200
And so it's just fascinating.
When you, when you read, what

890
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:44,300
what happened and and just
understanding that this was an

891
00:57:44,300 --> 00:57:48,700
intentional effort to rewrite
our history so that they could

892
00:57:48,700 --> 00:57:53,600
change the doctrine.
Leonard Arrington was, you know,

893
00:57:53,600 --> 00:58:00,400
the historian in the mid-1900s.
And he, that's one of his

894
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,200
quotes.
As if we can change the history,

895
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,000
we can change the doctrine and
they wanted to get rid of a lot

896
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,900
of, a lot of the teachings of
the Prophet Joseph Smith that,

897
00:58:08,900 --> 00:58:11,800
you know, they want to change
some of the doctrine of

898
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,800
covenants, they want to get rid
of section. 132, they want to

899
00:58:14,808 --> 00:58:18,900
get rid of You know, the
patriarchal order and all of

900
00:58:18,900 --> 00:58:21,300
those things.
And so they knew they could do

901
00:58:21,300 --> 00:58:25,300
it by rewriting or history and
so Faith crisis wanted to adjust

902
00:58:25,300 --> 00:58:29,600
their phenomenal books.
They actually it was based on

903
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,900
Leonard Arrington zones,
Diaries, and writings and what

904
00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:35,400
he revealed in those diaries
about what he was doing and why,

905
00:58:35,700 --> 00:58:37,800
and how they were going to train
up the next generation of

906
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,600
Scholars, and historians with
this Progressive new Mormon

907
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:46,600
history.
And so, you know, it's really A

908
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,700
lot of members coming out of BYU
who are being taught, this new

909
00:58:50,700 --> 00:58:53,600
Mormon history, if you're being
taught this Progressive

910
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:56,900
scholarship, but it's also
affecting, you know, every

911
00:58:56,900 --> 00:58:59,600
branch of Mormonism.
Hmm, right?

912
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,400
And, and I would say that
Richard Bushman, he's one of the

913
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,200
most prolific Progressive
historians of our time.

914
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,300
Who wrote the book?
Rough Stone Rolling.

915
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,300
Yep.
That completely.

916
00:59:10,700 --> 00:59:16,600
He completely re remakes Joseph
Smith into In a cultic treasure

917
00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:23,300
treasure Seeker.
Lazy basically a bumbling idiot.

918
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:29,300
But when you understand where
those sources and are coming

919
00:59:29,300 --> 00:59:34,100
from and the purpose for
rewriting the history, then you

920
00:59:34,100 --> 00:59:37,000
just throw it out and, you know,
this is not the Joseph Smith.

921
00:59:38,500 --> 00:59:40,600
That's in the scriptures.
This is not the Joseph Smith

922
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:42,700
that has been prophesied in
scriptures.

923
00:59:42,700 --> 00:59:46,400
This is not the Joseph Smith
that all of his closest friends

924
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,300
and Associates testified of his
name and his character.

925
00:59:49,300 --> 00:59:52,000
It's just a completely Rewritten
history.

926
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:56,100
So, I just wanted people to be
aware of that and that I do

927
00:59:56,100 --> 01:00:00,000
encourage people to read, go to
Joseph, Smith foundation.org.

928
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,800
You know, get their books, the
faith crisis books and and just

929
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,500
arm yourself with that knowledge
and information about what's

930
01:00:08,500 --> 01:00:11,000
happening to our history.
So that when you you're

931
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,400
confronted with these ideas,
these Progressive ideas about

932
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:19,700
history that you can, you can
combat him and you can you help

933
01:00:19,700 --> 01:00:22,600
your children to see the attacks
on our history?

934
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:30,100
I, I read those books and Hannah
did a great job.

935
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:36,400
I mean, Solid documented solid.
I don't see how you can't read

936
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:42,200
those books and walk away.
And And and not know exactly

937
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:45,000
what's going on now.
And, and the scary part is, it's

938
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,100
one thing to read about it.
Academically, it's another

939
01:00:48,100 --> 01:00:51,000
thing, when you see it, right?
It's another thing, when you're

940
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:55,300
like, oh crap, they're making,
they're making actual Headway,

941
01:00:55,300 --> 01:00:57,600
right?
It's not like this was just

942
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,500
something that was thought of.
They put these plans into

943
01:01:00,500 --> 01:01:04,500
practice, right?
And so, and how that ties into

944
01:01:04,500 --> 01:01:07,100
the this doctrine of Christ
movement is because I feel like

945
01:01:07,100 --> 01:01:11,300
that, they then they could take
advantage of that, right?

946
01:01:11,300 --> 01:01:13,600
They can say look, the church
has Changed History.

947
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:15,400
So we can't believe what the
church says.

948
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,300
We can't believe our history.
Right?

949
01:01:18,300 --> 01:01:24,300
And so they've taken advantage
of that and sadly, again, people

950
01:01:24,300 --> 01:01:30,300
that that are unversed in an
original sources that haven't

951
01:01:30,300 --> 01:01:36,000
taken the time to study study
those, they have fallen prey and

952
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,000
it's very unfortunate.
Well, and I think that's why the

953
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,000
work that you're doing and that
Hannah's doing with the, the

954
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:47,100
Joseph Smith Foundation is so
vital because it's really

955
01:01:47,100 --> 01:01:49,800
leading the charge against this,
right?

956
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,800
It's really really coming out
strong against it.

957
01:01:54,100 --> 01:01:59,400
So next we talked about maybe
going over some of the critical

958
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,400
events leading up to Carthage.
Hmm.

959
01:02:02,500 --> 01:02:06,400
And I think that's a good place
to go next because we've kind of

960
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,600
diagnosed what the problem is,
right?

961
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:12,000
With with, you know, the
doctrine of Christ movement with

962
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:16,200
Justin Griffin, with, with Phil
Davis and the progressive

963
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:20,100
rewrite of Mormon history.
So now I think it is this would

964
01:02:20,100 --> 01:02:23,800
be a good time where Talk about
what actually happened and those

965
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,600
times leading up to Carthage,
okay?

966
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:30,500
So I this won't be this won't be
comprehensive, right?

967
01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:32,500
Because you don't have your head
out 10 hours.

968
01:02:32,500 --> 01:02:36,900
I mean, there's so leading
everything about the martyrdom.

969
01:02:37,100 --> 01:02:39,500
If we really want to understand
the martyrdom, we'd have to

970
01:02:39,508 --> 01:02:42,600
actually go back to Kirtland.
Well, I'm not going to do that.

971
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:44,100
Obviously, there's not enough
time.

972
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,200
I do want to just highlight the
main points.

973
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:49,900
I think, if people just
understood these points about

974
01:02:49,900 --> 01:02:53,800
the events leading up to
martyrdom, Mmm, what happened,

975
01:02:53,900 --> 01:02:56,000
then you understand what
happened at Carthage and then

976
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,900
even the events after including
the trial, I just think that

977
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:04,000
this those facts alone just
blows Justin Griffin's Theory

978
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,800
out of the water, it puts the
nail in the coffin and what's

979
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:12,300
interesting is that Justin
Griffin is on record saying, he

980
01:03:12,300 --> 01:03:15,000
doesn't know very much about
what happened before and what

981
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:20,800
happened after.
So he is not giving his viewers

982
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,000
his It's a complete picture of
Carthage.

983
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:29,600
She's only taking You know, this
conspiracy inside of Carthage

984
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:33,900
gel and presenting that as as
factual.

985
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,200
And so, we have to understand
that history cannot be taken out

986
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:41,600
of context and I almost want to
compare it to a puzzle, right?

987
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,400
You, you can as you're putting a
puzzle together, you kind of

988
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,300
think you see the picture of how
it's going to end up.

989
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,700
But then, you know, if you only
have a few pieces, but as you

990
01:03:51,700 --> 01:03:54,700
start to put all the pieces
together, the picture completely

991
01:03:54,700 --> 01:03:56,900
changes.
Right?

992
01:03:57,500 --> 01:04:03,200
So we have to understand what
happened before I haven't during

993
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:07,100
what happened after.
So that's just a brief segue and

994
01:04:07,100 --> 01:04:09,200
I just want to go over a few, a
few points.

995
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,800
So number one, we have to
understand.

996
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,300
I think this is critical.
We have to know that the Prophet

997
01:04:16,300 --> 01:04:19,400
Joseph Smith prophesied of his
death.

998
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:26,200
And not only did he prophesy of
his of his upcoming death, but

999
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:30,800
he said that he could not die
until he fully established the

1000
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:36,900
kingdom of God on Earth.
He said in August 1842, Joseph

1001
01:04:36,900 --> 01:04:40,800
Smith said my feelings at the
present time are that inasmuch

1002
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,500
as the Lord Almighty has
preserved me until today, he

1003
01:04:44,500 --> 01:04:47,700
will continue to preserve me by
the United Faith and prayers of

1004
01:04:47,700 --> 01:04:52,300
the Saints until I have fully.
Published my mission in this

1005
01:04:52,300 --> 01:04:56,500
life and so firmly established
the dispensation of the fullness

1006
01:04:56,500 --> 01:04:59,800
of the priesthood in the last
days that all the powers of

1007
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:03,700
Earth and hell can never Prevail
against it, that's in the

1008
01:05:03,700 --> 01:05:07,800
history of the church Volume 5
Pages, 139 through 140.

1009
01:05:09,500 --> 01:05:12,600
And why that's so critical to
understand is because that is

1010
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:14,500
part of the doctrine of Christ
narrative.

1011
01:05:15,100 --> 01:05:19,600
Is that Joseph Smith, died
prematurely before everything

1012
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:24,800
was established, therefore we
need a return of Joseph Smith

1013
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,200
through.
Phil Davis to establish what he

1014
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:30,800
couldn't do.
That is that is such an

1015
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:35,800
important point because what I'm
finding with and I need to

1016
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,100
qualify this, right?
What I'm finding with a lot of

1017
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:43,600
Groups like the doctrine of
Christ or the progressive end of

1018
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:46,400
Mormonism.
Is that they're like no, no.

1019
01:05:46,700 --> 01:05:51,100
The the the restoration is
ongoing and in a sense, they're

1020
01:05:51,100 --> 01:05:55,400
correct right there.
If we're in Mormonism, we should

1021
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:59,900
expect.
T', fresh Revelation, right?

1022
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,800
Right.
But it shouldn't contradict what

1023
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,400
has come already.
Exactly.

1024
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:11,700
And and the authority part is
very key to understanding all of

1025
01:06:11,700 --> 01:06:14,700
this.
And so if these groups can paint

1026
01:06:14,700 --> 01:06:18,800
the picture of, hey, the the
restoration was incomplete so to

1027
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,900
speak again, you now have a
blank slate in which you can

1028
01:06:22,900 --> 01:06:24,500
draw anything on it.
You want.

1029
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:26,400
Exactly.
And that's what they're doing.

1030
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,200
And so, You know, we have to
have by the mouth of two or

1031
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:34,800
three Witnesses so he's that
first coat was 1942 in October

1032
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:37,200
1843.
So a year later he's the Prophet

1033
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:40,800
Joseph Smith said again I defy
all the world to destroy the

1034
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:44,500
work of God and I prophesy they
will never have power to kill me

1035
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:48,300
to my work as accomplish and I'm
ready to die history of the

1036
01:06:48,300 --> 01:06:52,300
church volume 6 page 58 and that
was from a discourse given by

1037
01:06:52,300 --> 01:06:57,900
Joseph Smith on October 15th,
1843 in Nauvoo, Illinois. so,

1038
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:05,100
Right Joseph Smith, he's saying
when his work has till his worst

1039
01:07:05,100 --> 01:07:07,500
complete, they will never have
power to kill him.

1040
01:07:07,500 --> 01:07:10,400
And I feel like that is even a
parallel to Jesus Christ.

1041
01:07:10,900 --> 01:07:14,800
Yeah, they did not have the
power to kill Jesus Christ until

1042
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:16,700
Jesus Christ.
Said, it is finished.

1043
01:07:18,500 --> 01:07:25,500
So servants typify, Jesus Christ
and I feel like his his mission

1044
01:07:25,500 --> 01:07:31,800
and his life and his death is a
type and Shadow of Jesus Christ.

1045
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:35,700
It's a testimony of Jesus
Christ, even his death.

1046
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:42,300
Okay, so just moving on and and
and so we know that, you know,

1047
01:07:43,500 --> 01:07:45,500
Anybody who knows anything about
the church, right?

1048
01:07:45,500 --> 01:07:54,400
We know that Nauvoo is it's one
of the most prosperous cities in

1049
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,000
Illinois.
It's bigger than Chicago at one

1050
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,600
point, right?
It was the, but it was, it was

1051
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:01,800
the biggest and the most
prosperous.

1052
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:07,200
And so you have people coming to
Nauvoo with ill intent, right?

1053
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:09,300
They want to capitalize on this
Prosperity.

1054
01:08:09,300 --> 01:08:16,300
There they are trying to You
know, you have Bootleggers all

1055
01:08:16,300 --> 01:08:20,300
these different villains that
come to Nauvoo, wanting

1056
01:08:21,300 --> 01:08:24,399
basically a piece of the pie
without being a member of the

1057
01:08:24,399 --> 01:08:26,800
church.
They want their prosperity, they

1058
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,000
want their wealth and so you
have.

1059
01:08:29,100 --> 01:08:33,100
So there were just enemies among
the saints.

1060
01:08:33,100 --> 01:08:35,500
There are people that would join
the church, just so they would

1061
01:08:35,500 --> 01:08:42,100
have an influence.
So anyway, so we know we have

1062
01:08:42,100 --> 01:08:45,600
all this going on, it's just
important again to get the

1063
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,700
overall picture of what Joseph
Smith was up against, right?

1064
01:08:49,700 --> 01:08:53,700
So not only that we have Joseph
Smith who was, who is, and then

1065
01:08:53,700 --> 01:08:56,899
he's running for president.
So, there was this threat,

1066
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,100
right?
Oh, Joseph Smith is, he's the

1067
01:08:59,100 --> 01:09:01,600
mayor of Nauvoo.
He's the leader of the of the

1068
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,200
novel Legion.
Now, he wants to be president

1069
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:09,000
and, you know, he's taking our
political Are so we already know

1070
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,300
that the you know, the powers
that be the government is

1071
01:09:12,700 --> 01:09:16,399
concerned about Joseph Smith's
influence, not just religiously

1072
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:19,800
but mostly politically and of
course then you have the

1073
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,399
religious leaders that are then
saying.

1074
01:09:22,399 --> 01:09:24,899
Oh but you know, he has
religious power to.

1075
01:09:24,899 --> 01:09:30,899
So Joseph Smith is a threat to
multiple different people.

1076
01:09:31,399 --> 01:09:36,399
Not just the apostates.
So not only that you have the

1077
01:09:36,399 --> 01:09:39,500
apostates You have the
government that's against them.

1078
01:09:39,500 --> 01:09:42,500
And then you have religious
leaders and they all want Joseph

1079
01:09:42,500 --> 01:09:46,000
Smith dead, right?
Yeah, absolutely.

1080
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:50,899
And I would say this resembles
very much, there's Echoes of

1081
01:09:50,899 --> 01:09:53,700
Christ's life here, right?
Because if you look at, wait,

1082
01:09:53,700 --> 01:09:55,700
what's happening with Jesus, in
his time?

1083
01:09:56,700 --> 01:09:59,100
Pardon the expression, he's
pissing everybody off, right?

1084
01:09:59,100 --> 01:10:02,800
It's not just the Pharisees,
it's not just the Sadducees, but

1085
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:06,500
it's Rome as well, right?
I mean, he's not making a ton of

1086
01:10:06,500 --> 01:10:09,200
friends and Get the feeling that
in the Nauvoo period.

1087
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:11,600
Joseph Smith is in the very same
boat.

1088
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,800
Nobody likes it right.
Except those who are following

1089
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:20,400
following his teachings, right?
So, so, this is important just

1090
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:24,400
leading up to kind of, like the
crisis moment, right, in that

1091
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,700
view.
So not only that is, you have

1092
01:10:27,700 --> 01:10:31,500
him introducing secret
doctrines, right, private

1093
01:10:31,500 --> 01:10:37,100
doctrines, right Council of 50
and and where he is actually

1094
01:10:37,100 --> 01:10:40,900
Really in in Nauvoo, he's
crowned king of Israel.

1095
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:46,300
And so this is really where
William law starts to turn on

1096
01:10:46,300 --> 01:10:53,900
Joseph Smith.
Not only does he completely What

1097
01:10:53,900 --> 01:10:55,400
is the word?
The eighth?

1098
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,000
He hates polygamy.
William.

1099
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:03,100
Ah, but then he is He's up in
arms about the fact that Joseph

1100
01:11:03,100 --> 01:11:05,500
Smith has now, just been crowned
king of Israel.

1101
01:11:06,100 --> 01:11:08,900
I don't know if you're aware of
that actually.

1102
01:11:08,900 --> 01:11:12,100
Yeah, in fact just last night
part of the podcast we did last

1103
01:11:12,100 --> 01:11:16,800
night was the Council of 50.
So, yeah, this is, this is great

1104
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:21,700
this to write right in, right?
And so again, we see a parallel

1105
01:11:21,700 --> 01:11:24,100
with the Life of Christ, right?
He comes and he declared himself

1106
01:11:24,100 --> 01:11:27,100
the king of Jews and then, you
know, he's going to take over

1107
01:11:27,100 --> 01:11:30,400
the political structure in
Jerusalem.

1108
01:11:31,100 --> 01:11:34,700
But then, you know, he's also
the, you know, as a king and so,

1109
01:11:34,900 --> 01:11:40,100
so William laws looking at this.
He's like, okay and he writes in

1110
01:11:40,100 --> 01:11:42,900
his journal about Joseph Smith
and his secret doctrines and he

1111
01:11:43,500 --> 01:11:46,600
so he's basically just angry at
Joseph Smith.

1112
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:51,300
And and I think polygamy was the
last straw when he was he was

1113
01:11:51,300 --> 01:11:55,800
introduced to polygamy by Hyrum
Smith in.

1114
01:11:56,500 --> 01:11:58,000
I had a council meeting in
Nauvoo.

1115
01:11:58,900 --> 01:12:04,800
And so you have William law who
obviously turns apostate, right?

1116
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,400
I mean, we all know William
everyone knows the story of

1117
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:11,300
William law.
He turns apostate and but I

1118
01:12:11,308 --> 01:12:15,500
don't know if everyone is aware
of the Blood Oath.

1119
01:12:16,500 --> 01:12:19,900
And the the secret meeting of
conspiracy.

1120
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:22,900
No, tell us about that.
And so there are I just think

1121
01:12:22,900 --> 01:12:27,800
that there are these two unsung
heroes of this novel, period.

1122
01:12:28,100 --> 01:12:30,900
And there are two young men
named Dennison, L Harris, and

1123
01:12:30,900 --> 01:12:36,200
Robert Scott.
And they are in the spring of

1124
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:38,200
1844.
Joseph Smith was alerted by

1125
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,900
these two young, men of the
secret movement, to take both of

1126
01:12:41,900 --> 01:12:45,100
the life and the lives of the
life of Joseph Smith, and the

1127
01:12:45,100 --> 01:12:47,500
lives of several other Leading
Men in the church including

1128
01:12:47,500 --> 01:12:52,000
Hyrum Smith.
They had been personally invited

1129
01:12:52,100 --> 01:12:56,100
to the secret meetings by these
conspirators, so they're just

1130
01:12:56,100 --> 01:12:58,200
young kids.
I can't remember their ages.

1131
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:00,700
I want to say 15 and 16.
Okay.

1132
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:05,100
And so they go to Joseph Smith
and they said, hey, we've been

1133
01:13:05,100 --> 01:13:07,600
invited to this meeting the
secret meetings.

1134
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:12,500
And Joseph Smith said, well, I
want you to attend And so and he

1135
01:13:12,500 --> 01:13:17,000
tells them you know you you're
risking your life by doing this

1136
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:23,100
but I want you to attend and so
they knew that they would be

1137
01:13:23,100 --> 01:13:26,100
risking their lives and so they
attended three of these meeting

1138
01:13:26,100 --> 01:13:29,900
is as spies and so each time
they would bring back to Joseph

1139
01:13:29,900 --> 01:13:32,000
Smith a report of what they had
witnessed.

1140
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:37,600
And then at the last meeting
they Recounted.

1141
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:42,200
The requirement that everyone
present at the meeting had to

1142
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:46,100
take a Blood Oath to be willing
to take the life of the Prophet

1143
01:13:46,100 --> 01:13:51,500
Joseph Smith.
And so because they are this

1144
01:13:51,500 --> 01:13:54,000
meeting, you know, Josie they
could go back to Joseph Smith

1145
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,200
and said, but everybody there is
required to take this blood off.

1146
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,700
And Joseph Smith said, you know,
if you, if you don't attend the

1147
01:13:59,708 --> 01:14:02,700
meeting the next meeting, you
know, it's got an alert to

1148
01:14:02,700 --> 01:14:05,300
something suspicious, so you
need to go but just don't take

1149
01:14:05,300 --> 01:14:08,300
the oath.
And so again, they're risking

1150
01:14:08,300 --> 01:14:13,800
their life, their lives and so
they go to this meeting where

1151
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,500
the, where they witnessed these
blood is being taken.

1152
01:14:17,100 --> 01:14:19,800
Mhm.
And then when the time comes for

1153
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:22,800
them to take the blood off, they
basically refused.

1154
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:28,200
And there they were taken down
to The Cellar to be shot and and

1155
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:32,300
probably by, you know, divine
intervention, one of the men

1156
01:14:32,300 --> 01:14:37,000
says says well, if we kill him
then, You know, their fathers

1157
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:39,200
will come looking for him and
then we'll be found out.

1158
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:43,200
So we need to let him go but
they basically took them out by

1159
01:14:43,208 --> 01:14:46,200
the banks of the of the
Mississippi River and said we're

1160
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:48,800
going to let you go but if you
tell anybody will kill you and

1161
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:52,700
your family and Joseph Smith was
actually hiding in the banks of

1162
01:14:52,700 --> 01:14:54,700
this, Mississippi River and
heard everything.

1163
01:14:55,700 --> 01:14:58,500
Wow.
And, and he was in tears knowing

1164
01:14:58,500 --> 01:15:03,000
that You know, that these young
men, they risk their lives for

1165
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:07,400
him.
And and so later they sign

1166
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:13,200
affidavits and affidavits about
the names of these, the leaders

1167
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:17,400
in this plot and they were
Chauncey L, higbee, already

1168
01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:21,300
Foster Joseph, 8, Jackson, and
William, and Wilson law.

1169
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:29,100
So, and I bring that up because
for tooth, for a number of

1170
01:15:29,100 --> 01:15:33,300
reasons is first, we have a, we
have the conspiracy of who the

1171
01:15:33,300 --> 01:15:36,300
conspirators were right.
We know there is soundly

1172
01:15:36,300 --> 01:15:38,600
documented in our history, we
have witnesses.

1173
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:42,800
If Brigham Young John Taylor and
Willard Richards were part of a

1174
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:45,700
conspiracy?
Where is the evidence?

1175
01:15:46,900 --> 01:15:51,000
Yeah, why don't we have any
account from anybody ever saying

1176
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:55,900
anything?
yeah, it is, it blows my mind

1177
01:15:55,900 --> 01:16:05,200
and how Yeah, I just go to if
this was Brigham heeded, done

1178
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:09,400
something to make sure that he
steps forward as being more

1179
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:13,300
prominent than Joseph and he
never does.

1180
01:16:13,700 --> 01:16:17,100
And if I'm not mistaken on
Brigham's deathbed, his final

1181
01:16:17,100 --> 01:16:21,200
words is Joseph repeated three
times, right?

1182
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:26,200
You wouldn't get the quote, you
know, I feel like shouting,

1183
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:29,300
Hallelujah.
Every time I stop to think and

1184
01:16:30,100 --> 01:16:32,200
remember that I knew Joseph
Smith.

1185
01:16:32,900 --> 01:16:36,000
Exactly.
On the other hand, we have this

1186
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:41,800
document, these two young men,
who risked everything, we have

1187
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:46,600
their sworn affidavits, and we
know, William, Wu apostatized,

1188
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:48,100
right?
That that's not.

1189
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:53,700
There's, there's nothing there
to suggest otherwise It just it,

1190
01:16:53,900 --> 01:16:56,600
it's maddening when you look at
the preponderance of evidence.

1191
01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:01,200
And yet, there are still folks
that fall for the for this.

1192
01:17:01,900 --> 01:17:03,600
I'm sorry.
Yeah.

1193
01:17:03,700 --> 01:17:08,500
And so to me, that's just me if
we're thinking about this

1194
01:17:08,900 --> 01:17:11,400
fragile rationally and
logically, right?

1195
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:17,000
Again, we we have evidence of
who the conspirators were.

1196
01:17:17,700 --> 01:17:21,200
There's no.
So, Brigham Young essentially

1197
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:24,100
would have had Full a lot of
people and there's no record

1198
01:17:24,100 --> 01:17:28,100
anywhere of him saying anything
anywhere or no and even alleging

1199
01:17:28,100 --> 01:17:31,300
that he said anything about
killing, right?

1200
01:17:31,300 --> 01:17:34,600
There's no, if I'm not, if I'm
not mistaken Brigham's overseas,

1201
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:37,300
right?
So if he has to give an order,

1202
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:39,600
it's going to have to come by
letter.

1203
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:44,500
And maybe even tell it, I'm not
sure, Telegraph, even existed.

1204
01:17:44,500 --> 01:17:48,100
Then I'm not sure I'm not going
to say that, but there have been

1205
01:17:48,100 --> 01:17:50,800
documentation somewhere because
he would have had to have

1206
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:55,100
written the order, right?
And, and then I would just, I

1207
01:17:55,100 --> 01:17:57,700
know we all know about the
Nauvoo Expositor there.

1208
01:17:57,700 --> 01:18:00,000
You know, the heat William that
William.

1209
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:04,700
All wrote the novel Expositor.
There's only one publication.

1210
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:09,200
Before it was destroyed, I think
that in itself is a pretty good

1211
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:12,900
source.
If you haven't taken the chance

1212
01:18:12,900 --> 01:18:16,800
to read what he wrote, the novel
Expositor, I encourage your

1213
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:21,400
listeners to do so because it's
pretty telling about, you know

1214
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:27,100
what, William law.
What he was accusing Joseph

1215
01:18:27,100 --> 01:18:31,500
Smith of and again he was
accusing himself of polygamy.

1216
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:35,500
So right there is proof that he
was practicing polygamy, because

1217
01:18:35,500 --> 01:18:39,500
William law was charging him
with polygamy, and then he was

1218
01:18:39,500 --> 01:18:43,700
charging him with claiming to be
the king of Israel, and a God to

1219
01:18:43,708 --> 01:18:48,200
this generation.
So, again, tying that back into

1220
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:52,600
why was Joseph Smith?
What was the conspiracy against

1221
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:55,400
Joseph Smith?
It was because the same reasons

1222
01:18:55,400 --> 01:19:00,500
that This Christ was crucified
was threatening the political

1223
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:02,200
and the religious structure of
the day.

1224
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:04,900
Wow.
And so I think that's just an

1225
01:19:04,907 --> 01:19:10,600
important source and then we
know that Joseph Smith orders,

1226
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:14,300
the destruction of the Nauvoo
Expositor right which incites

1227
01:19:14,300 --> 01:19:18,600
the mob.
And I did want to read also a

1228
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:23,000
prophecy that Joseph Smith gave
of of why he ordered the

1229
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:26,100
destruction of the Nauvoo
Expositor and I Think this is

1230
01:19:26,100 --> 01:19:32,400
important, and I do want to read
this because I've actually read

1231
01:19:32,500 --> 01:19:36,600
the modern interpretation of the
reason why Joseph Smith

1232
01:19:36,900 --> 01:19:39,400
basically saying if Joseph
Smith, hadn't ordered, the

1233
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:42,800
destruction of the Novack, some
Expositor that he never would

1234
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:45,200
have died.
So, they kind of blame Joseph

1235
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:49,800
Smith for his own death.
But actually Joseph Smith was

1236
01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:52,200
actually trying to save the
lives of the Saints.

1237
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:56,100
When he ordered the destruction
of the Nauvoo Expositor because

1238
01:19:56,100 --> 01:20:00,400
George lob.
He reported in his journal that

1239
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:04,400
Joseph called a meeting at his
own house and told us that God

1240
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:09,300
showed to him in an open Vision,
in daylight that if he did, not

1241
01:20:09,300 --> 01:20:12,400
destroy that printing, press
that it would cause the blood of

1242
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:14,200
the Saints to flow in the
streets.

1243
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:19,000
And by this was that evil does.
Asteroid and speaking of those

1244
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:21,700
who returned to report that they
had destroyed the press and

1245
01:20:21,700 --> 01:20:24,600
other materials as ordered by
the city council Joseph Smith

1246
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:29,000
recorded, I told them they had
done right and not a hair of

1247
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:30,600
their heads would be hurt for
it.

1248
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:39,900
Which which again, he's seen his
followers, right?

1249
01:20:39,900 --> 01:20:44,800
He's seen the early members
already shed, blood haun's Mill.

1250
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:48,300
All the stuff that happens in
Missouri, the persecutions.

1251
01:20:49,100 --> 01:20:53,600
And this time, they're you get
the sense that this is different

1252
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:55,300
in Nabu now.
Right?

1253
01:20:55,500 --> 01:20:58,700
Right.
And so know that that makes

1254
01:20:58,700 --> 01:21:00,500
sense on why he would have done
that.

1255
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:04,200
Right.
And so it right again, so it's

1256
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:10,400
another, you know, Joseph Smith
his death, it just when I think

1257
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:15,200
of Justin Griffin's movie and
what really angers me most about

1258
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:19,100
it is I just feel like it makes
a mockery of Joseph Smith death.

1259
01:21:19,900 --> 01:21:23,000
And so understanding that Joseph
Smith was actually trying to

1260
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:26,700
save the life of his Saints.
This is, you know, this is who

1261
01:21:26,700 --> 01:21:30,800
he was, this is his character
and so with that, the

1262
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:35,100
destruction of the now, Do
Expositor obviously incited the

1263
01:21:35,100 --> 01:21:39,800
mobs to violence.
As we know William law then

1264
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:43,900
worked with Thomas Sharpe.
And they publish stuff in the

1265
01:21:43,900 --> 01:21:47,300
Warsaw single signal.
It gets the Saints which also

1266
01:21:47,300 --> 01:21:51,600
incited not only the not only
mobs in Illinois, but now is

1267
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:58,600
incited the mobs in Missouri
that were still had revenge in

1268
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:04,600
their hearts against the Saints.
And so Thomas Sharpe the editor

1269
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:09,200
of the Warsaw signal wrote We
hold ourselves at all times and

1270
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:12,400
Readiness to cooperate with our
fellow citizens to exterminate.

1271
01:22:12,500 --> 01:22:16,800
Eight, utterly exterminate the
wicked and abominable Mormon

1272
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:19,400
leaders.
He even called, for an attack on

1273
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:24,200
Abu declaring strike them for
the time has fully come true.

1274
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:29,300
So right?
Yeah.

1275
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:36,500
So after that Joseph Smith, he
declares martial law and he

1276
01:22:36,500 --> 01:22:40,500
called on the novel Legion, to
protect the city and then while

1277
01:22:40,500 --> 01:22:43,000
he was preparing to defend the
city of Nauvoo, the prophet

1278
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:45,900
received a letter from the
governor for charging the city

1279
01:22:45,900 --> 01:22:49,000
council and the mayor with gross
misuse of their civil Powers.

1280
01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:52,500
After reading the governor's
letter, Joseph stated that there

1281
01:22:52,500 --> 01:22:55,500
was no mercy here venting his
feelings further.

1282
01:22:55,500 --> 01:23:00,300
The prophet said, I told Stephen
Markham that if I had, if I am

1283
01:23:00,500 --> 01:23:04,600
Hiram were ever taken.
Again, we would be massacred or

1284
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:07,800
I was not a prophet of God, I
won't hire him to avenge my

1285
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:10,300
blood, but he's determined not
to leave me.

1286
01:23:14,100 --> 01:23:15,500
So right there, he's
prophesying.

1287
01:23:15,500 --> 01:23:17,200
It was death, he knows, it's
good.

1288
01:23:17,700 --> 01:23:21,900
He knows it's coming, right?
So he not only that, he's saying

1289
01:23:21,900 --> 01:23:25,600
if I'm not Massacre that, I'm
not a prophet of God and hoozy

1290
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:27,800
prophesying is going to Martyr
him.

1291
01:23:28,100 --> 01:23:31,600
He's probably he's telling us,
the mobs are going to kill me.

1292
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:34,700
The state of Illinois is going
to kill me, right?

1293
01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:36,900
He says, if not, I'm not a
prophet of God.

1294
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:41,000
So even there the movie who
could those are Smith is calling

1295
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:44,900
into question.
Joseph Smith prophetic Mission

1296
01:23:44,900 --> 01:23:49,200
and his prophetic ability.
Yeah, that's a great Point,

1297
01:23:49,200 --> 01:23:52,200
Kimberly.
So let me ask you this in this

1298
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:57,200
time leading up where Joseph
feels like, you know, my times

1299
01:23:57,200 --> 01:23:59,900
coming.
It's short, is he doing anything

1300
01:23:59,900 --> 01:24:02,900
to prepare?
The apostles that are there to

1301
01:24:02,900 --> 01:24:06,900
kind of get them ready to to
carry the work forward.

1302
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:15,700
Oh yes, absolutely.
I'm just a second.

1303
01:24:29,100 --> 01:24:36,500
Okay, so we'll we know that.
If you study the life of Jesus

1304
01:24:36,500 --> 01:24:38,700
Christ, right?
What was he doing to prepare?

1305
01:24:38,700 --> 01:24:44,400
His Apostles in the go ahead?
Sorry, I was about to cut you

1306
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:46,200
off.
I don't want to do that, okay?

1307
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:49,000
If you had something to say go
ahead, I was going to say he

1308
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:51,600
was, he was preparing his
Apostles, right?

1309
01:24:51,900 --> 01:24:55,200
And you can see he's been doing
it his whole ministry, right?

1310
01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:58,200
He tells Peter, this is your The
Rock upon which I will build my

1311
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:01,600
church.
He and, and in those final

1312
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:08,700
moments, you know, you have the
The Last Supper where he keeps

1313
01:25:08,700 --> 01:25:12,400
it tells everybody, you know,
this is going to happen and then

1314
01:25:12,900 --> 01:25:15,500
you know he basically gives them
charge keep going.

1315
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:19,500
Right.
And so if you really study that

1316
01:25:19,500 --> 01:25:21,500
account which I think is it
really fascinating?

1317
01:25:21,500 --> 01:25:25,800
You have Jesus Christ.
He's washing the feet of his

1318
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:28,100
Apostles which is actually a
temple ordinance.

1319
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:31,700
Hmm.
And then there in John chapter

1320
01:25:31,700 --> 01:25:37,100
20, there's I don't have my
scriptures in front of me but he

1321
01:25:37,100 --> 01:25:40,500
basically says that he was
giving them the signs which in

1322
01:25:40,508 --> 01:25:43,600
Hebrew translates to tell guns.
Mmm.

1323
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:47,700
So this is all in the upper room
in the upper room right laughter

1324
01:25:48,100 --> 01:25:52,900
in the upper room and so another
you know compelling parallel.

1325
01:25:52,900 --> 01:25:57,100
Is that Joseph Smith.
He's also preparing his Apostles

1326
01:25:57,600 --> 01:26:01,300
in the upper room of the red
book store Right, right?

1327
01:26:01,300 --> 01:26:06,200
So you have Joseph Smith on May
4th and 5th of 1842.

1328
01:26:06,700 --> 01:26:10,800
He calls nine of the most
faithfuls brevis bread into his

1329
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:13,500
side.
And there he presents the sacred

1330
01:26:13,500 --> 01:26:16,600
ceremonies and instructions
known as the endowment,

1331
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:20,000
including the washing, the
anointing, keywords signs and

1332
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:22,100
tokens.
And that's in the upper room of

1333
01:26:22,100 --> 01:26:24,600
his Mercantile store Nauvoo
Illinois.

1334
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:27,200
And these Brethren were Hyrum
Smith.

1335
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:31,600
Brigham Young Heber C Kimball
Willard Richards, William Marks,

1336
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:35,100
William law, George Miller know,
Kate Whitney and James Adams.

1337
01:26:35,900 --> 01:26:40,300
And then he said, as he revealed
revealing the words purposes in

1338
01:26:40,300 --> 01:26:43,600
a mystery in in administering
these ordinances the Prophet

1339
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:47,300
Joseph Smith declared it is not
the will of the Lord that I

1340
01:26:47,300 --> 01:26:50,200
should live and they must give
you here in this upper room.

1341
01:26:50,500 --> 01:26:53,100
All the Glorious plans and
principles whereby men are

1342
01:26:53,100 --> 01:26:55,100
entitled to the fullness of the
priesthood.

1343
01:26:56,100 --> 01:26:59,800
And then he later wrote in his
journal, I spend the upper day.

1344
01:26:59,900 --> 01:27:03,100
A upper part of the store that
is in my private office in

1345
01:27:03,100 --> 01:27:07,400
Council with General James Adams
of Springfield patriarch.

1346
01:27:07,400 --> 01:27:10,800
Ironsmith Bishops no.
K Whitney and George Miller and

1347
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:13,300
president Brigham Young and
Elders Heber C, Kimball and

1348
01:27:13,300 --> 01:27:15,900
Willard Richards.
Instructing them in the

1349
01:27:15,900 --> 01:27:19,700
principles and Orders of the
priesthood attending to Washings

1350
01:27:19,700 --> 01:27:22,900
anointings endowments and the
communication of keys pertaining

1351
01:27:22,900 --> 01:27:26,200
to the Raonic priesthood.
And so on to the highest order

1352
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:31,300
of the Melchizedek priesthood,
So he's doing the exact same

1353
01:27:31,300 --> 01:27:35,100
thing that Christ did exactly
giving them everything they

1354
01:27:35,100 --> 01:27:39,300
would need to continue the work
forward to make sure that it can

1355
01:27:39,300 --> 01:27:41,800
fulfill.
Its prophetic Destiny, right?

1356
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:45,500
And so he's not only instructing
them in the temple endowment,

1357
01:27:45,500 --> 01:27:50,100
but he's also giving them Keys,
George Miller, also recorded

1358
01:27:50,100 --> 01:27:53,800
that he Joseph washed and
anointed them Kings and Priests

1359
01:27:53,800 --> 01:28:03,500
to God over the house of Israel.
And he later gave, he also gave

1360
01:28:03,500 --> 01:28:06,200
Brigham Young, the stealing
power.

1361
01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:12,100
So And Joseph Smith later wrote
brother, and I have conferred

1362
01:28:12,100 --> 01:28:14,400
upon you now, every key and
principal and power that has

1363
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:16,900
bestowed upon me.
Now, you must round up your

1364
01:28:16,900 --> 01:28:22,400
shoulders and bear off the
kingdom or you will be damned So

1365
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:25,300
he make sure that that work is
completely finished.

1366
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:31,000
The work of transferring, the
the authority and those rights

1367
01:28:31,500 --> 01:28:34,500
of the Kingdom to the 12.
To make sure that there's no

1368
01:28:34,500 --> 01:28:37,500
doubts that this work will go
for it.

1369
01:28:37,900 --> 01:28:44,200
And I find it interesting that
despite what Davis and Griffin

1370
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:48,600
want to say Brigham Young is
front and center first and

1371
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:54,100
foremost in those things, right?
And It soundly documented first

1372
01:28:54,100 --> 01:28:57,700
and foremost that he did receive
keys that he did receiving the

1373
01:28:57,700 --> 01:29:01,500
sealing power, the power of
Elijah, the Joseph Smith had

1374
01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:06,100
received in 1836 and that he
gave them the power and

1375
01:29:06,100 --> 01:29:09,200
authority.
To Bear off the kingdom.

1376
01:29:09,500 --> 01:29:12,300
Not just leave the church to,
but to Bear off the kingdom,

1377
01:29:12,700 --> 01:29:15,700
because we have to remember that
Joseph Smith was establishing

1378
01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:19,200
the kingdom of God separate and
apart from the church.

1379
01:29:19,200 --> 01:29:23,700
That's right.
So he not so Brigham Young, you

1380
01:29:23,708 --> 01:29:26,300
know, if I ate just in defense
of Brigham Young for a minute,

1381
01:29:27,100 --> 01:29:31,600
We can look to the revelations.
Doctor covenants. 107 were God.

1382
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:34,300
Jesus Christ through Joseph
Smith.

1383
01:29:34,300 --> 01:29:39,100
Clearly lays out that the Quorum
of The Twelve Apostles are equal

1384
01:29:39,100 --> 01:29:41,800
in authority to the first
presidency as far as the church

1385
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:45,100
is concerned.
So Brigham Young as the

1386
01:29:45,100 --> 01:29:47,400
president of the Quorum.
He absolutely had a right to

1387
01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:52,400
lead the church, but it wasn't
just his position as the

1388
01:29:52,407 --> 01:29:54,500
president of the Quorum of The
Twelve Apostles that gave him

1389
01:29:54,500 --> 01:29:57,000
that, right?
It was actually his position in

1390
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:01,600
the In the Council of 50, right?
Has, he was anointed.

1391
01:30:02,500 --> 01:30:07,000
King priest and prophet.
In addition, in the Council of

1392
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:11,100
52, bear off, not just not just
to leave the church, but to Bear

1393
01:30:11,100 --> 01:30:14,200
off the kingdom of God.
Right.

1394
01:30:14,700 --> 01:30:17,100
Right.
And I think I think sometimes

1395
01:30:17,100 --> 01:30:20,600
going back to we don't sometimes
we don't know our own history

1396
01:30:21,300 --> 01:30:24,600
when Brigham comes out west.
He's not simply here for a

1397
01:30:24,608 --> 01:30:29,400
church right?
He's here for a political

1398
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:34,300
Kingdom, right?
And I think it's sad that we've

1399
01:30:34,300 --> 01:30:40,400
lost sight of that.
So we don't know what we're

1400
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:43,300
doing when we when we talk about
about Brigham Young, we don't

1401
01:30:43,300 --> 01:30:47,500
know what we're doing.
No, no, we don't and I find it

1402
01:30:47,500 --> 01:30:51,000
interesting that the prophet
calls him on a mission to go

1403
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:54,800
overseas.
Before his passing, it makes me

1404
01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:57,400
wonder if he was.
Like if Brigham's here, they're

1405
01:30:57,400 --> 01:31:00,200
going to take him out next
because law would have known

1406
01:31:00,200 --> 01:31:03,000
that Brigham was next in
succession, right?

1407
01:31:03,300 --> 01:31:08,200
Right.
And so I often wonder that if if

1408
01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:10,200
he'd have been there if he
wouldn't have been a Target as

1409
01:31:10,200 --> 01:31:14,500
well and he probably could not
have got Brigham out of the jail

1410
01:31:14,500 --> 01:31:17,800
with, with Joseph.
I imagine he would have been

1411
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:20,100
like, no, I'm going to be right
there with you.

1412
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:23,200
Right.
There's actually a quote Young

1413
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:26,800
and I I don't have it.
I just remembered it as you're

1414
01:31:26,800 --> 01:31:30,400
talking about that will Brigham.
Young said had myself from the

1415
01:31:30,407 --> 01:31:33,400
Twin in the apostles been here,
they never would have taken him

1416
01:31:33,400 --> 01:31:36,200
to Carthage.
We wouldn't have let them so we

1417
01:31:36,200 --> 01:31:40,600
know I think there was a reason
why they were on missions and

1418
01:31:41,900 --> 01:31:46,000
and so so we know, right?
Joseph Smith is preparing the

1419
01:31:46,008 --> 01:31:48,200
people for his death, he's
prophesying of his death.

1420
01:31:48,200 --> 01:31:51,800
He's he's bestowing the keys.
He's giving them instructions to

1421
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:57,200
carry on.
To carry on his mission to, to

1422
01:31:57,200 --> 01:32:01,300
finish the temple to to do all
of these important, his

1423
01:32:01,300 --> 01:32:05,700
important work, right?
And so now we have Joseph Smith

1424
01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:08,600
is being charged with treason
for destroying the Nauvoo

1425
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:12,000
Expositor and that he's going to
be brought for trial.

1426
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:17,800
And and for declaring martial
law, and I think it's important

1427
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:23,000
that Steven Markham, who will
Who was also a visitor with You

1428
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:27,700
Stephen Markham and Dan Jones
were also in Carthage with

1429
01:32:27,700 --> 01:32:29,800
Joseph Smith and till the day of
their death.

1430
01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:34,200
Most people don't don't know
that and so we can go to Stephen

1431
01:32:34,200 --> 01:32:36,800
Markham who is an important
historical Source on what

1432
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:39,100
happens at Carthage and leading
up to Carthage.

1433
01:32:39,700 --> 01:32:43,200
And that he wrote that on the
afternoon of June 26th, there

1434
01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:46,300
was an anti-mormon meeting at
the Hamilton Hotel.

1435
01:32:47,500 --> 01:32:51,400
And he said, quote, it was
proposed that if Illinois and

1436
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:54,600
Missouri would join forces to
kill the Mormon leader.

1437
01:32:54,900 --> 01:32:57,200
They would not be brought to
justice for it.

1438
01:32:57,700 --> 01:33:00,200
There were delegates at the
meeting from every state of the

1439
01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:04,700
union except for three.
The next day, a few hours before

1440
01:33:04,700 --> 01:33:07,500
the attack on the Jill Marcum
was forced to leave Carthage

1441
01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:11,500
Carthage at Bayonet Point.
Wow.

1442
01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:16,100
Yeah, so so the conspiracy just
got bigger, right?

1443
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:19,400
It's not just William law,
conspiring with the state of

1444
01:33:19,400 --> 01:33:21,700
Illinois.
Now it's Illinois and Missouri,

1445
01:33:21,900 --> 01:33:24,900
conspiring with all of the
states in the union except for

1446
01:33:24,900 --> 01:33:29,600
three saying if the deed is done
and we killed Joseph Smith, no

1447
01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:32,300
one's going to be brought to
justice for it and they have the

1448
01:33:32,300 --> 01:33:35,900
power to make that happen.
I want to make sure I heard you

1449
01:33:35,900 --> 01:33:39,500
right every state in the Union
except three.

1450
01:33:40,100 --> 01:33:41,800
Yes.
I hear you correctly.

1451
01:33:42,300 --> 01:33:44,300
Yes, because that's a new one on
me.

1452
01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:47,000
So tell me the three states that
weren't involved.

1453
01:33:47,200 --> 01:33:50,100
That's a good question.
This is from Steven Markham and

1454
01:33:50,100 --> 01:33:52,100
unfortunately he didn't say
which three states.

1455
01:33:52,700 --> 01:33:55,200
Okay.
Wow.

1456
01:33:56,400 --> 01:34:00,700
I'm not sure on that.
I wish we would have known that.

1457
01:34:01,900 --> 01:34:07,800
That that that pain.
I'm just trying to wrap my mind

1458
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:12,700
around that, right?
You have one guy, one guy who

1459
01:34:12,900 --> 01:34:18,100
the majority of the Union Sees,
as such a threat.

1460
01:34:19,700 --> 01:34:23,000
That they have to take him out
and they're willing to swear

1461
01:34:23,000 --> 01:34:25,400
Blood Oath by it.
Right?

1462
01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:30,300
That's, that's the other thing.
Do we not see The Echoes, my

1463
01:34:30,300 --> 01:34:32,300
mind goes back.
When I hear all this, it goes

1464
01:34:32,300 --> 01:34:39,600
back to the account of Cain when
he kills Abel and he takes those

1465
01:34:40,100 --> 01:34:43,500
covenants, right?
He makes promises and he's given

1466
01:34:43,500 --> 01:34:46,900
the title of Master Mahan and
and everything else.

1467
01:34:46,900 --> 01:34:53,000
And I have nothing to back this
up with other than just, I feel

1468
01:34:53,000 --> 01:34:56,900
it in my very soul that I'm sure
those are some of the same

1469
01:34:56,900 --> 01:34:59,200
covenants that those men took
right, this?

1470
01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:02,100
This feels like ancient evil
again.

1471
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:04,800
Right.
Exactly.

1472
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:11,500
And and I also did want to, you
know, illustrate the violent

1473
01:35:11,500 --> 01:35:17,600
nature of the threats against
Joseph Smith because you know we

1474
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:21,300
the way that Justin Griffin
portrays.

1475
01:35:21,300 --> 01:35:27,000
It he just portrays this mob as
docile who were scared off by a

1476
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:31,200
few bullets a few right gunshots
from a pistol.

1477
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:36,000
And so I just Again, illustrate
just the violent nature of the

1478
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,200
threats against Hills of.
So as he's being brought to

1479
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:42,000
Carthage, these are the threats.
So there's a mob that had formed

1480
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:45,500
right outside of Carthage.
He, he first is staying in the

1481
01:35:45,500 --> 01:35:49,000
Hamilton hotel and then he has
to go from the Hamilton hotel

1482
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:53,600
to, to the courthouse.
And eventually they're saying,

1483
01:35:53,600 --> 01:35:55,100
well, he's not safe in the
hotel.

1484
01:35:55,100 --> 01:36:00,900
We got to take him to the jail.
And this massive mob has formed

1485
01:36:00,900 --> 01:36:02,200
and these are some of the
threats.

1486
01:36:02,900 --> 01:36:06,300
So on June 24th. 1844 at
midnight when Joseph entered

1487
01:36:06,300 --> 01:36:10,100
Carthage and militia company.
The Carthage Graves encamped on

1488
01:36:10,108 --> 01:36:13,000
the Public Square gave threats
as Joseph passed.

1489
01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:19,100
They said, quote, where's the
damn profit stand away, and let

1490
01:36:19,100 --> 01:36:24,300
us shoot the damn Mormons.
And then once said, DOD.

1491
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:27,800
Damn, you old?
Joe we've got you now, clear the

1492
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:29,900
way and let us have a view of
Joe Smith.

1493
01:36:29,900 --> 01:36:33,400
The prophet of God, he has seen
the last of Nauvoo.

1494
01:36:33,400 --> 01:36:36,900
We will use him up.
Now continuing the profanity

1495
01:36:36,900 --> 01:36:39,600
abuse and violent threats.
The crowd followed Joseph and

1496
01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:42,700
Company from the Public Square
to the Hamilton house yelling

1497
01:36:42,700 --> 01:36:46,200
and cursing and acting like
ravenous beasts hungry for their

1498
01:36:46,200 --> 01:36:51,800
prey, on June 25th, 1844 or
Joseph and other members of the

1499
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:54,000
novice City.
Little under arrest for

1500
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:56,600
destroying.
The Expositor press were taken

1501
01:36:56,600 --> 01:37:01,000
before our F Smith justice of
the peace and also captain of

1502
01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:05,000
the Carthage graze by 8 p.m.
that same evening evening,

1503
01:37:05,900 --> 01:37:09,000
Constable Betty worth appeared
at their lodgings at the

1504
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:12,700
Hamilton house and insisted,
they're going to jail as Joseph

1505
01:37:12,700 --> 01:37:15,200
and Company were taken from the
Hamilton house with Captain

1506
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:18,200
done.
And some 20 men to guard Joseph,

1507
01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:21,000
a drunken rabble had collected
in the streets.

1508
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:24,300
Several times, broke through the
And threatened violence against

1509
01:37:24,300 --> 01:37:28,500
Joseph Joseph.
Hiram Dan Jones, Stephen Markham

1510
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:32,900
John, a former John Taylor and
Willard Richards, past the night

1511
01:37:32,900 --> 01:37:37,800
of the 25th in Carthage Jail.
And then on June 26th, 1844

1512
01:37:37,800 --> 01:37:40,500
Joseph spent the morning in a
lengthy interview with Governor

1513
01:37:40,500 --> 01:37:43,400
Ford.
The prophet told Governor Ford

1514
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:46,400
that he had considered himself
unsafe in Carthage.

1515
01:37:46,400 --> 01:37:49,600
As the town was swarming with
man, who had openly sworn to

1516
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:54,600
take his life.
And this is another important

1517
01:37:55,200 --> 01:38:00,500
part of the of the narrative.
It's says by the afternoon on

1518
01:38:00,500 --> 01:38:04,700
the 26th, Frank whirl appeared
before the jail in command of

1519
01:38:04,708 --> 01:38:07,500
the Carthage straight Greys and
demanded the prisoners be

1520
01:38:07,500 --> 01:38:09,900
delivered up to the Constable
for trial.

1521
01:38:10,500 --> 01:38:13,500
The Jailer refused to surrender,
Joseph, and Hyrum until

1522
01:38:13,500 --> 01:38:17,600
discharged by due course of Law
and not by the demand of the

1523
01:38:17,600 --> 01:38:22,700
military despot, but the threats
and T intimidation whirl

1524
01:38:22,700 --> 01:38:25,900
compelled the gel or against his
conviction conviction to

1525
01:38:25,900 --> 01:38:28,800
surrender.
The prisoners to him a mob

1526
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:31,900
gathered at the jail and resumed
their threats of violence and

1527
01:38:31,900 --> 01:38:34,900
they unlawfully, and illegally
dragged, the prisoners out and

1528
01:38:34,900 --> 01:38:37,900
expose them to imminent danger
among the worst enemies.

1529
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:43,300
And so, I mean, this was what
they were dealing with it

1530
01:38:43,300 --> 01:38:47,400
Carthage.
Russia is the threat after

1531
01:38:47,400 --> 01:38:50,800
threat.
They were constantly trying to

1532
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:54,100
drag him out of the gel for an
opportunity to shoot him.

1533
01:38:56,400 --> 01:39:01,000
You know, the jailers their
guards were were scared off.

1534
01:39:02,500 --> 01:39:04,800
Right.
Oh, by the way, the the local

1535
01:39:04,800 --> 01:39:11,200
militia.
Yeah, so I mean it paints a

1536
01:39:11,208 --> 01:39:14,000
pretty different picture.
When again, we have to put

1537
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:17,600
history into its context, right?
We have to know what's leading

1538
01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:23,000
up to up to Carthage and and to
understand, you know, who is

1539
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:26,500
behind the death of Joseph
Smith.

1540
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:31,800
And so I thought a lot about,
you know, their narrative and

1541
01:39:31,900 --> 01:39:38,100
and I keep, you know, to myself
I'm just thinking If true which

1542
01:39:38,100 --> 01:39:41,200
it's not.
But if true Willard Richards and

1543
01:39:41,200 --> 01:39:44,900
Dog Taylor are the luckiest
criminals in history of the

1544
01:39:44,900 --> 01:39:48,800
world.
Yeah, not only do they end up

1545
01:39:48,900 --> 01:39:53,500
supposedly committing the
murders but then The mob takes

1546
01:39:53,500 --> 01:39:55,900
credit for it and they just get
off scot-free.

1547
01:39:55,900 --> 01:39:58,200
Like does that make any rational
sense?

1548
01:39:58,700 --> 01:40:02,800
No.
And there's there's so much

1549
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:06,500
wrong with Griffin's account of
what happened in that room,

1550
01:40:06,700 --> 01:40:08,100
right?
Hmm.

1551
01:40:08,200 --> 01:40:12,100
Let's just look at the room and
I'm going to say something

1552
01:40:12,100 --> 01:40:17,600
that's Is, it's kind of, I don't
know, right up my alley.

1553
01:40:17,700 --> 01:40:22,900
I watch a lot of MMA, right.
I'm a big fan of the sport and

1554
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:26,900
I'm going somewhere with this.
John Taylor was not.

1555
01:40:28,100 --> 01:40:32,000
An extremely large man, right?
I think he was just under six

1556
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:35,300
foot.
We know both the Smith boys were

1557
01:40:35,300 --> 01:40:38,400
big guys and they were athletic.
Hmm.

1558
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:46,800
So in Griffin's account, you
have Hiram, who fires a shot and

1559
01:40:46,800 --> 01:40:53,900
shoots Taylor in the leg Taylor
wounded and smaller somehow,

1560
01:40:54,700 --> 01:40:57,300
Manages to get around Hiram and
fire the shot.

1561
01:40:57,300 --> 01:41:01,200
That kills it.
That's not happening when I saw

1562
01:41:01,200 --> 01:41:04,000
that and I watched the movie
three times because I wanted to

1563
01:41:04,000 --> 01:41:06,000
make sure I was getting as much
as I could.

1564
01:41:06,500 --> 01:41:09,500
And my first thought is
Griffin's never been in a fight.

1565
01:41:11,100 --> 01:41:15,500
There's no way that's happening.
S Joseph burst through the door

1566
01:41:15,500 --> 01:41:17,200
and rather than go to his
brother.

1567
01:41:17,900 --> 01:41:21,800
He just makes the assumption
that Taylor shot him and start

1568
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:23,400
shooting him.
There is so much wrong with

1569
01:41:23,400 --> 01:41:26,800
this, and there's no context.
Like, you were saying, right?

1570
01:41:27,100 --> 01:41:31,300
You have to ignore the context
of Happened inside the building.

1571
01:41:31,600 --> 01:41:34,600
Then you have to ignore the
context of what happened.

1572
01:41:34,800 --> 01:41:38,700
You have to ignore the context
of blood owes, those blood

1573
01:41:38,700 --> 01:41:42,600
Oaths, you have to ignore the
context of the mobs, you have to

1574
01:41:42,600 --> 01:41:44,600
ignore, all to come up with
this.

1575
01:41:45,900 --> 01:41:47,500
Right?
And, and then you have to also

1576
01:41:47,500 --> 01:41:52,300
ignore Joseph Smith's on
prophecies and this is another

1577
01:41:52,300 --> 01:41:54,000
Port prophecy.
He gave two days before

1578
01:41:54,000 --> 01:42:02,300
martyrdom, so he's in he's in
Carthage June 25th, 1844 and

1579
01:42:02,300 --> 01:42:04,800
several of the officers of the
troops in Carthage and other

1580
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:07,200
gentlemen are curious to see the
profit.

1581
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:11,000
They visit him in the room,
Joseph in the room and general

1582
01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:15,100
Smith asked, Joseph if there is
anything colonel-general so

1583
01:42:15,100 --> 01:42:16,900
General Excuse me, that's Joseph
Smith.

1584
01:42:16,900 --> 01:42:20,800
He asked the officers.
If there is anything in his

1585
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:23,700
appearance, the indicated he was
the desperate character, his

1586
01:42:23,700 --> 01:42:27,200
enemies represented him to be
and he asked them to give him

1587
01:42:27,200 --> 01:42:29,100
their honest.
Opinion on the subject.

1588
01:42:29,200 --> 01:42:33,300
The reply was no, sir.
Your parents would indicate to

1589
01:42:33,300 --> 01:42:38,500
the very contrary General Smith
but we cannot see what is in

1590
01:42:38,500 --> 01:42:40,600
your heart.
Neither can we tell what are

1591
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:44,900
your intentions to which Joseph
replied very true?

1592
01:42:44,900 --> 01:42:48,100
Didn't Woman, you cannot see
what is in my heart and you are

1593
01:42:48,100 --> 01:42:52,900
therefore unable to judge me or
my intentions but I can see what

1594
01:42:52,900 --> 01:42:55,600
is in your hearts and I will
tell you what I see.

1595
01:42:55,900 --> 01:42:59,900
I can see that you thirst for
blood and nothing but my blood

1596
01:42:59,900 --> 01:43:04,600
will satisfy you.
It is not for Crime of any

1597
01:43:04,600 --> 01:43:07,600
description that I and my
brethren arth us continually

1598
01:43:07,600 --> 01:43:10,000
persecuted and harassed by our
enemies.

1599
01:43:10,400 --> 01:43:14,000
But there are other motives and
some of them I have expressed so

1600
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:17,400
far as relates to myself.
And in, as much as you and the

1601
01:43:17,400 --> 01:43:20,800
people thirst for blood, I
prophesy in the name of the Lord

1602
01:43:21,000 --> 01:43:24,700
that you shall witness scenes of
blood and sorrow sorrow to your

1603
01:43:24,700 --> 01:43:28,300
entire satisfaction.
Your souls shall be perfectly,

1604
01:43:28,300 --> 01:43:31,300
safe, shaded with blood.
And many of you who are now

1605
01:43:31,300 --> 01:43:33,800
present shall have an
opportunity to face the Cannons

1606
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:36,200
mouth from sources, you think
NADA.

1607
01:43:36,700 --> 01:43:39,300
And those people that desire,
this great evil upon me and my

1608
01:43:39,300 --> 01:43:42,100
brethren shall be filled with
regret and sorrow because of the

1609
01:43:42,100 --> 01:43:45,100
scenes of desolation and
distress that awaits them.

1610
01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:48,000
They I shall seek for peace and
shall not be able to find it

1611
01:43:48,300 --> 01:43:50,600
gentlemen.
You will find what I have told

1612
01:43:50,600 --> 01:43:53,500
you to be truth and that's in
the doctrinal history of the

1613
01:43:53,500 --> 01:44:00,800
church volume 6 page 566 and I
wanted to point out important

1614
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:04,100
point, right?
Joseph Smith is prophesying

1615
01:44:04,100 --> 01:44:06,200
number one.
I know what's in your heart.

1616
01:44:06,400 --> 01:44:11,900
I know you're after my after my
life that you thirst for my

1617
01:44:11,900 --> 01:44:15,500
blood and he's and then he
prophesized will, you will have

1618
01:44:15,700 --> 01:44:18,600
And then he prophesized,
basically, this is another

1619
01:44:18,600 --> 01:44:21,800
Prophecy of the Civil War
because we know right.

1620
01:44:22,200 --> 01:44:24,100
Right.
That that was fulfilled.

1621
01:44:24,400 --> 01:44:28,700
And so my question then is if he
could prophesy the hearts of

1622
01:44:28,700 --> 01:44:32,300
these men, But not John Taylor
Willard Richards.

1623
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:37,100
Yeah, so he knew he didn't know
that they were also thirsting

1624
01:44:37,100 --> 01:44:40,700
for his blood, right?
It doesn't make any sense unless

1625
01:44:40,700 --> 01:44:44,300
you unless you are saying that
Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

1626
01:44:44,700 --> 01:44:49,600
Right right and and and that's
the other thing Griffin doesn't

1627
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:52,100
know favors to Joseph in his
documentary.

1628
01:44:52,100 --> 01:45:01,900
He paints him. he paints him as
not being able to see it coming,

1629
01:45:02,200 --> 01:45:05,700
right?
If, if Taylor and Willard's are

1630
01:45:05,700 --> 01:45:10,400
behind it, he paints him as
somebody who who is caught off

1631
01:45:10,400 --> 01:45:13,900
guard and shocked by this and it
just doesn't hold water.

1632
01:45:15,900 --> 01:45:17,100
Right.
Yep.

1633
01:45:17,500 --> 01:45:22,400
Yeah, that it's just amazing to
me like when I every time I

1634
01:45:22,500 --> 01:45:26,000
watch that scene of Joseph
Smith, he how they portray him.

1635
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:28,300
He comes back in the room and he
almost looked like, he's like

1636
01:45:28,300 --> 01:45:33,300
surprised really.
He's kind of like this unaware,

1637
01:45:33,800 --> 01:45:37,100
idiot.
The didn't know that, you know,

1638
01:45:37,100 --> 01:45:40,600
the his that will Richard and
John Taylor were going to

1639
01:45:40,608 --> 01:45:44,200
assassinate him and it just,
again, it calls into question,

1640
01:45:44,200 --> 01:45:46,300
his prophetic.
Mantle.

1641
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:50,000
Yeah, we was and and just the
fact that he's prophesying up

1642
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:53,700
into this point of his death,
and he was going to kill him.

1643
01:45:55,000 --> 01:45:58,800
So wow.
And so that's very convenient of

1644
01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:04,900
Justin's people to, you know, to
narrate his, his documentary

1645
01:46:04,900 --> 01:46:07,100
around.
I just want to know what

1646
01:46:07,100 --> 01:46:10,100
happened in the two to three
minutes and Carthage, right?

1647
01:46:10,200 --> 01:46:14,300
Because when you leave out
what's leading up and and no one

1648
01:46:15,400 --> 01:46:19,100
right knows all those details,
then it's easily to convince.

1649
01:46:20,500 --> 01:46:24,700
Three motion and sensationalism
that this was a possibility.

1650
01:46:24,900 --> 01:46:29,300
Right?
Yeah, I after I watched the

1651
01:46:29,300 --> 01:46:34,600
movie the first time, I have a
good friend who came to work for

1652
01:46:34,600 --> 01:46:39,500
me years and years ago, when I
was still in Idaho who had

1653
01:46:39,500 --> 01:46:45,000
fought in Iraq, And I asked him,
you know, about it, I called him

1654
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:46,700
up.
I said, watch the scene and tell

1655
01:46:46,700 --> 01:46:52,200
me what jumps out at you.
And I remember he said there's

1656
01:46:52,200 --> 01:46:58,300
no way of knowing right because
it's a firefight and anyone

1657
01:46:58,300 --> 01:47:02,900
who's been in a firefight will
tell you this idea of coming in

1658
01:47:03,400 --> 01:47:08,300
and just being Froze, that
doesn't work right and that

1659
01:47:08,300 --> 01:47:11,100
scene and it made me think of
what you said that that scene

1660
01:47:11,100 --> 01:47:15,000
where Joseph comes in and just
stands there as bullets were

1661
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:19,200
flying everywhere.
It's, it's silly.

1662
01:47:19,400 --> 01:47:21,700
I don't know how to explain it.
It's silly.

1663
01:47:21,700 --> 01:47:25,500
It's frankly in pardon my
expression here, Kimberly.

1664
01:47:25,500 --> 01:47:29,200
It's a piss poor effort and
trying to rewrite history.

1665
01:47:29,600 --> 01:47:32,600
I mean, at least if you're going
to have a conspiracy at least

1666
01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:35,500
make it a good one.
I mean, this is this is just

1667
01:47:35,500 --> 01:47:38,700
horrible, right?
And I want to point out too.

1668
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:43,800
Is Justin Griffin is also on
record of saying, he said

1669
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:46,400
someone asked him in an
interview, it's on YouTube.

1670
01:47:46,500 --> 01:47:48,900
Tube.
So, you know, I can get you the

1671
01:47:48,900 --> 01:47:51,900
link, so people couldn't listen
for themselves, but someone

1672
01:47:51,900 --> 01:47:53,000
asked him.
Well, what do you think is the

1673
01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:56,200
weakness of your theory?
And he said that there are no

1674
01:47:56,200 --> 01:47:59,100
historical sources.
That John Taylor Miller Richards

1675
01:47:59,100 --> 01:48:04,200
have any guns, So I just want
you to think about and your

1676
01:48:04,200 --> 01:48:08,300
audience to think about, okay if
you are, they basically Place

1677
01:48:08,300 --> 01:48:10,300
John Taylor and really Richards
on trial.

1678
01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:15,800
There they've charged him with
first-degree cold-blooded murder

1679
01:48:16,700 --> 01:48:19,700
and so and if you are the
defense attorney.

1680
01:48:21,100 --> 01:48:23,100
What is the first thing that
you're going to defend?

1681
01:48:24,400 --> 01:48:26,300
How did they kill him with no
murder weapon.

1682
01:48:26,400 --> 01:48:29,700
Right, right, he's saying the
Joseph and Hyrum were killed

1683
01:48:29,700 --> 01:48:33,300
with pistols.
What pistols, you know, show me

1684
01:48:33,300 --> 01:48:38,900
the pistols, you know, there's
no guns, no historical evidence

1685
01:48:38,900 --> 01:48:41,900
of them, having any guns and he
admits that.

1686
01:48:42,900 --> 01:48:46,300
She's so right there.
If this were a real court of law

1687
01:48:46,400 --> 01:48:50,300
today in 2022, that case would
be thrown out on that.

1688
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:53,600
And that point alone that you
can't produce a murder weapon.

1689
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:57,100
Right.
Yeah absolutely.

1690
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:01,900
It's my son.
My oldest boy, came in, came

1691
01:49:01,900 --> 01:49:04,100
over to visit while I was
watching it, you asked me what I

1692
01:49:04,108 --> 01:49:08,600
was watching and I told him He
just kind of looked at me

1693
01:49:08,600 --> 01:49:11,500
sideways and I'm like son.
This is this is the third time.

1694
01:49:11,500 --> 01:49:14,700
I'm watching this and you know I
love you because I'm never going

1695
01:49:14,700 --> 01:49:18,700
to ask you to watch this because
it's a horrible movie.

1696
01:49:18,700 --> 01:49:23,000
I mean, just production-wise
it's not good but I mean it's

1697
01:49:24,000 --> 01:49:27,700
it's it's so disheartening that
it's gained so much traction.

1698
01:49:28,200 --> 01:49:32,100
It is, and it's unfortunate
because he's again, he's very

1699
01:49:32,100 --> 01:49:38,600
misleading and and he he's not
completely forthcoming.

1700
01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:42,900
So yesterday, I actually had an
opportunity to attend the Mormon

1701
01:49:42,900 --> 01:49:45,400
history Association conference.
No cool.

1702
01:49:45,400 --> 01:49:50,800
And I attended because it's here
in Logan and I actually live in

1703
01:49:50,800 --> 01:49:53,200
Logan.
So and it's actually was just a

1704
01:49:53,200 --> 01:49:55,500
mile down the street from me I
live close to Utah State

1705
01:49:55,500 --> 01:50:01,500
University and Sam Weston was
was going to be a presenter on

1706
01:50:01,500 --> 01:50:06,000
Carthage and if you remember
he's highlighted and Justins

1707
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:07,300
movie.
Yep he is.

1708
01:50:07,700 --> 01:50:11,200
And so I'm like okay this is the
perfect opportunity.

1709
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:17,000
I want to find out what Sam
Western thought of the movie and

1710
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:21,100
he is, he was very, very
unhappy.

1711
01:50:21,700 --> 01:50:28,100
He's actually very frustrated
and angry with Justin for two.

1712
01:50:28,300 --> 01:50:31,100
Sentence.
Number one, he was very, he was

1713
01:50:31,100 --> 01:50:36,800
misrepresented in the movie, his
research was misrepresented.

1714
01:50:37,700 --> 01:50:40,800
And number two, he didn't know
that.

1715
01:50:40,800 --> 01:50:43,300
Justin Griffin was going to make
the documentary.

1716
01:50:43,700 --> 01:50:46,400
Oh, geez.
And he never signed a release.

1717
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:51,200
He said he was duped into seed
by Justin and Justin, portrayed

1718
01:50:51,200 --> 01:50:54,200
himself as a active.
Faithful believing member of the

1719
01:50:54,208 --> 01:50:57,900
church who just wanted.
To know the truth about Carthage

1720
01:50:57,900 --> 01:51:01,400
and I thought I'm just helping a
fellow member of the church to

1721
01:51:01,400 --> 01:51:05,100
understand better what happened
in Carthage and so he's pretty

1722
01:51:05,100 --> 01:51:09,600
upset with Justin and so I was
able to, you know, ask some

1723
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:12,900
clarifying questions, you know,
about his theory.

1724
01:51:14,100 --> 01:51:17,700
And because I was kind of
partial to the line brother

1725
01:51:17,700 --> 01:51:23,200
Siri, but after talking to some
Weston, he he actually makes

1726
01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:27,100
some very compelling arguments
that I think we really need to

1727
01:51:27,100 --> 01:51:29,900
revisit that.
You know, Joe, I think, Justin

1728
01:51:29,900 --> 01:51:33,300
Griffin purposely left out a lot
of details about his theory out

1729
01:51:33,300 --> 01:51:38,800
of his movie.
So number one is that some

1730
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:41,900
Weston says, so he can prove
forensically.

1731
01:51:43,100 --> 01:51:45,800
How Joseph Smith and Hyrum were
killed that?

1732
01:51:46,700 --> 01:51:50,100
Cooperates Willard Richards
testimony and John Taylor's

1733
01:51:50,100 --> 01:51:53,800
testimony really?
And so and I just want to

1734
01:51:53,800 --> 01:51:56,400
highlight that because it's
actually very important and I

1735
01:51:56,407 --> 01:51:59,000
think for your audience or
anyone who's listening that may

1736
01:51:59,000 --> 01:52:04,000
still be skeptical of the
traditional narrative.

1737
01:52:04,100 --> 01:52:08,000
I think this just completely
Bulls it out of the water, the

1738
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:12,200
traditional narrative or the or
the Justin Griffin's Theory.

1739
01:52:12,500 --> 01:52:20,000
So What sound Weston's evidence,
and Theory, actually stays true

1740
01:52:20,000 --> 01:52:23,000
to the traditional narrative
that eyewitness accounts and

1741
01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:24,500
blows Justin Theory out of the
water.

1742
01:52:24,900 --> 01:52:29,000
Can you share it with us?
Okay.

1743
01:52:31,300 --> 01:52:34,100
Wait wait, breaking news, go
ahead, right?

1744
01:52:34,100 --> 01:52:35,500
And so this just happened
yesterday.

1745
01:52:35,500 --> 01:52:37,800
So this wasn't originally
planned like when I Was

1746
01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:42,600
preparing for your podcast.
But so yesterday just kind of

1747
01:52:42,600 --> 01:52:45,500
divided by divine intervention.
I was able to attend this

1748
01:52:45,500 --> 01:52:49,700
conference and, and listen to
his presentation and then

1749
01:52:49,700 --> 01:52:54,500
personally interview him.
So we have Justin, we all know,

1750
01:52:54,500 --> 01:52:57,100
if you watch the movie, you
know, his theory and what he

1751
01:52:57,100 --> 01:53:01,200
shows.
And so you know he tries It

1752
01:53:01,200 --> 01:53:05,800
alleges that the church is
moving away from the traditional

1753
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:08,000
narrative.
And there was a representative

1754
01:53:08,000 --> 01:53:10,600
from the Joseph's, the papers
was there and he said absolutely

1755
01:53:10,600 --> 01:53:12,700
that's not true.
We're not moving away from the

1756
01:53:12,700 --> 01:53:15,600
eyewitness accounts if anything
we're trying to provide

1757
01:53:15,600 --> 01:53:20,300
additional documentation to
corroborate the traditional, you

1758
01:53:20,300 --> 01:53:24,000
know, the eyewitness accounts.
And so that's another misleading

1759
01:53:24,600 --> 01:53:29,100
purposely deceptive claimed by
Justin Griffin that I just

1760
01:53:29,100 --> 01:53:32,600
wanted to do bunk really quick.
So Sam Weston.

1761
01:53:33,300 --> 01:53:39,400
So his theory is That based on
Willie Richards account.

1762
01:53:39,400 --> 01:53:42,900
He said he, he said, it's the
best account we have eyewitness

1763
01:53:42,900 --> 01:53:47,900
account.
So, his theory is right that the

1764
01:53:47,900 --> 01:53:53,600
three men are at the door.
Joseph Smith, John Taylor,

1765
01:53:53,600 --> 01:53:57,400
Willard Richards, and that
hiring is back from the door.

1766
01:53:57,800 --> 01:54:02,500
Now again we do have what we
have paintings and we have, you

1767
01:54:02,500 --> 01:54:08,500
know, reenactments or movies
that show Hiram at the door when

1768
01:54:08,500 --> 01:54:10,100
he shot.
Right.

1769
01:54:10,100 --> 01:54:14,200
Right and and again we have to
understand what the purpose of

1770
01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:18,100
movie or Cinema.
Is it it isn't always it's not

1771
01:54:18,100 --> 01:54:20,000
always historically accurate,
right?

1772
01:54:20,500 --> 01:54:22,400
Right, because they're not
trying to be, they're just

1773
01:54:22,400 --> 01:54:26,300
trying to basically when you
make a movie and it's not

1774
01:54:26,400 --> 01:54:29,300
nefarious and no one in the
church or outside the church

1775
01:54:29,300 --> 01:54:32,900
that have made reenactments of
Carthage or are trying to retell

1776
01:54:32,900 --> 01:54:34,700
a new narrative.
Whether what they're doing is,

1777
01:54:34,700 --> 01:54:38,000
she's trying to draw people in
three motion, right?

1778
01:54:38,300 --> 01:54:43,000
And they take a lot of creative
Liberties I guess and

1779
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:48,100
interpretations.
And so there and and that's we

1780
01:54:48,100 --> 01:54:51,500
need to get away from that.
I would, you know, I think that

1781
01:54:51,500 --> 01:54:54,600
the church agrees, we need to
get away from that and if we're

1782
01:54:54,600 --> 01:54:57,000
going to portray something, we
need to make it as accurately as

1783
01:54:57,000 --> 01:55:00,000
possible.
So so we have in our minds that

1784
01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:02,400
Hiram's at the door.
And I guess that Justin just

1785
01:55:02,400 --> 01:55:06,600
again, he takes advantage of of
of just are already pre

1786
01:55:06,600 --> 01:55:10,600
conceived conceptions.
And so he rightfully saying well

1787
01:55:10,600 --> 01:55:14,400
that could have happened and
here's why I write like, right?

1788
01:55:15,300 --> 01:55:18,000
The angle and and even some
Western agrees.

1789
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:21,500
He's like if he if he were at
the door when he was shot when

1790
01:55:21,500 --> 01:55:24,200
the when the musket ball came
through the door and hit him in

1791
01:55:24,200 --> 01:55:27,400
the face, basically wooden.
Splinters would be all over his

1792
01:55:27,400 --> 01:55:30,300
face would be embedded in his
face and you would see that the

1793
01:55:30,300 --> 01:55:33,900
death mask.
So he's saying absolutely the

1794
01:55:34,400 --> 01:55:38,600
higher Smith is Back from the
door and the kind of in the

1795
01:55:38,600 --> 01:55:42,100
center of the room and that's
really Richards testimony as

1796
01:55:42,100 --> 01:55:45,700
well.
So he believes that there was

1797
01:55:45,700 --> 01:55:49,300
the first ball, struck him
outside the window in his back,

1798
01:55:50,000 --> 01:55:52,700
causing him to fall, forward to
his knees.

1799
01:55:53,700 --> 01:55:56,600
And that's when he's claiming I
am a dead man, okay?

1800
01:55:56,600 --> 01:55:59,400
And then that, and then the
musket ball comes to the panel

1801
01:55:59,400 --> 01:56:01,200
of the door and then hits him in
the face.

1802
01:56:02,200 --> 01:56:05,800
Okay.
And what's interesting about

1803
01:56:05,800 --> 01:56:10,300
that, which I forensically, he
can prove that.

1804
01:56:11,300 --> 01:56:13,100
Really.
Did he tell you how?

1805
01:56:13,100 --> 01:56:14,600
Exactly.
Right.

1806
01:56:14,600 --> 01:56:18,500
So he's gonna have a paper
coming out in the summer but

1807
01:56:18,500 --> 01:56:21,100
yeah, he does explain it.
He had diagrams.

1808
01:56:22,300 --> 01:56:26,900
It's his narrator.
So this isn't going to be on

1809
01:56:26,900 --> 01:56:31,400
video so I can send you his
diagrams.

1810
01:56:31,900 --> 01:56:35,300
All that would be awesome of how
that happened and pay.

1811
01:56:35,300 --> 01:56:40,400
So what's interesting is, is
that actually just on June 2nd.

1812
01:56:40,400 --> 01:56:44,200
So that's two Is ago.
Justin Griffin actually, wrote a

1813
01:56:44,200 --> 01:56:50,300
Facebook post, which I actually
agree with and I'm just going to

1814
01:56:50,300 --> 01:56:53,300
read it to you because this
actually cooperates some

1815
01:56:53,300 --> 01:56:56,800
Weston's Theory.
So he says the Bullet Hole in

1816
01:56:56,800 --> 01:56:58,700
the vest from the Schottenheimer
is back.

1817
01:56:58,700 --> 01:57:05,100
Does measure close 2.69 inches
Then he writes so yes, he could

1818
01:57:05,100 --> 01:57:07,300
have been shot by a musket and
his back by the mob.

1819
01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:10,400
This is Justin Griffin.
Wow.

1820
01:57:11,900 --> 01:57:16,000
And he says, then he says and
here is where he gets deceptive,

1821
01:57:16,000 --> 01:57:19,200
he says, but there's no
gunpowder residue or any burn,

1822
01:57:19,200 --> 01:57:21,800
marks around that hole in the
vest which should have been a

1823
01:57:21,808 --> 01:57:24,700
case if he was shot by a musket
at close range.

1824
01:57:25,500 --> 01:57:28,500
That's why in the documentary, I
depicted the mob shooting Hiram

1825
01:57:28,500 --> 01:57:31,800
in the back with a pistol, but
whether it was a musket or

1826
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:34,900
pistol does not, Terribly
changed the Inside, Job Theory.

1827
01:57:35,900 --> 01:57:40,100
Which I disagree with it kind of
does, right?

1828
01:57:40,100 --> 01:57:47,700
Because if if it's a musket ball
and it's an inside job, right?

1829
01:57:48,900 --> 01:57:51,200
If I'm understanding and you
correct me if I'm

1830
01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:54,500
misunderstanding this that means
that Taylor or Richards would

1831
01:57:54,500 --> 01:57:58,900
have had to have been able to
smuggle in a rifle, correct.

1832
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:02,800
Well, not just a pistol, not
just a rifle but pistols because

1833
01:58:02,800 --> 01:58:05,800
remember the other shots here,
Legend are still pistols.

1834
01:58:05,900 --> 01:58:11,100
So The other marks on their
bodies or pistols, so it makes

1835
01:58:11,100 --> 01:58:14,200
no sense.
But so, one thing I want to

1836
01:58:14,208 --> 01:58:18,300
point out, he's like well.
So again he's saying there's no

1837
01:58:18,300 --> 01:58:20,800
gunpowder, residue or burn
marks, around that whole new,

1838
01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:27,300
this So saying and that would be
the case of a shot by a musket

1839
01:58:27,300 --> 01:58:29,400
at close range.
Well, according to some Western,

1840
01:58:29,400 --> 01:58:32,900
he wasn't shot at close range,
the the it came from outside the

1841
01:58:32,900 --> 01:58:36,800
jail, Okay window?
Right.

1842
01:58:36,800 --> 01:58:41,200
Yeah, no, you're right.
Okay, so and and this actually

1843
01:58:41,200 --> 01:58:44,400
forensically we can we know
that's true because he's

1844
01:58:44,400 --> 01:58:48,000
admitting that the Bullet Hole
in the vest in the back of her

1845
01:58:48,000 --> 01:58:49,800
hair's.
Vest does measure that of Point

1846
01:58:49,800 --> 01:58:52,500
69 inches.
So that is a musket ball shots,

1847
01:58:52,500 --> 01:58:55,400
a musket ball.
That's a rifle in the back with

1848
01:58:55,400 --> 01:58:58,700
a musket ball, right?
You can't dispute that anymore.

1849
01:58:58,700 --> 01:59:03,800
That's hard evidence, right?
The best story and that's that

1850
01:59:03,800 --> 01:59:08,000
was some Weston's Theory and And
of course, Justin Griffin will

1851
01:59:08,000 --> 01:59:12,400
argue that it's impossible.
Haven't must get on the ground

1852
01:59:12,400 --> 01:59:18,400
and see into the gel but it's
it's documented that the they

1853
01:59:18,400 --> 01:59:22,000
were also standing on wagons,
they brought wagons into, the

1854
01:59:22,008 --> 01:59:25,500
could stand on wagons to see
into the window, right?

1855
01:59:26,400 --> 01:59:31,400
So, I mean, that kind of, I mean
that soundly documented, right?

1856
01:59:31,400 --> 01:59:36,600
So I just there, it just this
blows holes in his theory,

1857
01:59:37,200 --> 01:59:40,200
right?
The so because he wants to

1858
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:42,500
claim.
There's no way he was shot in

1859
01:59:42,500 --> 01:59:46,000
the face which he's claiming he
was shot in the face first and

1860
01:59:46,000 --> 01:59:48,900
could say I'm a dead man.
Well, according to Saint West,

1861
01:59:48,900 --> 01:59:52,500
and the ball comes out from the
musket ball comes from the

1862
01:59:52,508 --> 01:59:57,000
window shoots him in the back.
That's when he's claiming, I'm a

1863
01:59:57,008 --> 01:59:58,400
dead man.
He's falling to his knees.

1864
01:59:58,400 --> 02:00:01,700
So this is happening within
seconds and then the ball comes

1865
02:00:01,700 --> 02:00:03,700
through the door panel.
Hits him in the face.

1866
02:00:05,400 --> 02:00:08,800
Which would account for that
stray shot that even Griffin

1867
02:00:08,800 --> 02:00:12,700
talks about that goes through
the panel without quote hitting

1868
02:00:12,700 --> 02:00:15,800
anybody, right?
Holy cow.

1869
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:19,300
And you you're willing to send
me that diagram I am.

1870
02:00:19,600 --> 02:00:22,900
Yeah, it's awesome.
And so, so we're so now we've

1871
02:00:22,900 --> 02:00:25,200
got a count for the bowl hole in
his neck, right?

1872
02:00:25,200 --> 02:00:28,800
So another thing that Justin
gets really, and this is clever

1873
02:00:28,800 --> 02:00:32,200
of him because he's saying,
there's no way that the Bullet

1874
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:34,800
Hole based on the angle, went
through the now.

1875
02:00:35,000 --> 02:00:37,700
The came out the neck.
So therefore, because there is a

1876
02:00:37,708 --> 02:00:40,500
bullet wound in the neck, so
therefore it had to bend the

1877
02:00:40,500 --> 02:00:45,200
other way around, right, right.
Well, according to an eyewitness

1878
02:00:45,200 --> 02:00:51,400
account, I think it was William
Daniels, who is he is, he is

1879
02:00:51,400 --> 02:00:55,100
either part of the Mob of the
militia, can't remember, he

1880
02:00:55,100 --> 02:00:59,000
later, joins the church.
He was Unreal extant member of

1881
02:00:59,000 --> 02:01:01,100
the mob by belief.
Okay.

1882
02:01:01,100 --> 02:01:07,700
So his account is that And he's
an eyewitness, he sees Joseph

1883
02:01:07,700 --> 02:01:11,500
falling from the window right
here, right?

1884
02:01:11,900 --> 02:01:15,400
So really Richards wasn't
throwing him out the window.

1885
02:01:16,200 --> 02:01:20,700
Anyway.
He season falling out the window

1886
02:01:20,700 --> 02:01:22,300
with no wheelie Richards pushing
him.

1887
02:01:22,900 --> 02:01:28,300
So he's saying that, you know,
once just so there's a

1888
02:01:28,800 --> 02:01:32,500
essentially, a third bullet,
meaning Hyrum Smith is on the

1889
02:01:32,508 --> 02:01:34,800
ground after being shot in the
face.

1890
02:01:34,900 --> 02:01:37,800
And then another bullet comes in
after he's on the ground and hid

1891
02:01:37,800 --> 02:01:40,700
them in the neck.
So, there isn't.

1892
02:01:40,700 --> 02:01:43,900
This idea of it has to travel at
a weird angle out his nose and

1893
02:01:43,900 --> 02:01:45,600
out of his neck if that makes
sense.

1894
02:01:45,600 --> 02:01:48,100
Yeah, it's just a different
wound now, right?

1895
02:01:48,100 --> 02:01:50,000
So that's that.
An eyewitness account of a

1896
02:01:50,008 --> 02:01:52,300
different wound.
Wow.

1897
02:01:54,300 --> 02:01:57,900
And have we always known about
that that other account from

1898
02:01:58,400 --> 02:02:02,500
Daniels.
I actually just recently found

1899
02:02:02,500 --> 02:02:04,400
it, so, I don't know.
I don't know.

1900
02:02:04,400 --> 02:02:07,000
I haven't read it in any any
books that have been written

1901
02:02:07,000 --> 02:02:10,100
about the martyrdom.
I actually had someone sent it

1902
02:02:10,100 --> 02:02:11,300
to me.
I didn't find it.

1903
02:02:11,700 --> 02:02:15,100
Someone just sent it to me.
So it's an, it's a recent fine.

1904
02:02:15,100 --> 02:02:17,800
I'm sure it's always been there,
but I don't know if it's made it

1905
02:02:17,800 --> 02:02:19,800
into any of the visual history
books.

1906
02:02:20,200 --> 02:02:21,900
People have written about
Carthage.

1907
02:02:22,000 --> 02:02:25,300
So where do you think with this
new evidence, right?

1908
02:02:25,400 --> 02:02:33,300
That even Griffin himself now
has to say, yeah, that's, that's

1909
02:02:33,300 --> 02:02:36,300
probably right.
Where do you think this takes

1910
02:02:36,300 --> 02:02:39,400
Griffins?
Hypothesis.

1911
02:02:39,400 --> 02:02:42,200
Now, what let me rephrase that,
where do you think Griffin goes

1912
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:44,900
next?
Well, I mean, he kind of says

1913
02:02:44,900 --> 02:02:48,400
already in his post.
He says, he says, whether or not

1914
02:02:48,400 --> 02:02:52,100
a muscular pistol, does does not
materially change the Inside Job

1915
02:02:52,100 --> 02:02:55,200
Theory, so he still claiming
this does not change the Inside

1916
02:02:55,200 --> 02:03:01,100
Job Theory.
He liked it.

1917
02:03:01,100 --> 02:03:03,500
I don't know how you can we have
to.

1918
02:03:04,100 --> 02:03:06,600
We have to like grapple with
this, right?

1919
02:03:06,600 --> 02:03:11,800
We have to say We have to be
thinking critically here, right?

1920
02:03:11,900 --> 02:03:17,700
Like, I think this does change
everything this alone changes

1921
02:03:17,700 --> 02:03:19,800
everything.
So, another thing he'll say,

1922
02:03:20,700 --> 02:03:25,500
he'll say, well, there's no
blood stains write right on the

1923
02:03:25,508 --> 02:03:27,300
back.
So therefore so that this has

1924
02:03:27,300 --> 02:03:30,400
been his his point all along
because there's no blood stains.

1925
02:03:30,400 --> 02:03:34,000
That means that the shot came
after, that's what he's

1926
02:03:34,000 --> 02:03:36,000
claiming.
So he gets so high, I'm already

1927
02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:37,500
bled out from the face and the
neck.

1928
02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:40,500
So therefore when By the time he
shot in the back, there's no

1929
02:03:40,500 --> 02:03:44,300
blood but actually.
And so Sam is alleging that this

1930
02:03:44,300 --> 02:03:46,500
was the first shot, right,
right.

1931
02:03:46,500 --> 02:03:54,800
And so actually Hyrum Smith body
was packed on Ice, oh happens,

1932
02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:58,300
when you put ice on blood
coagulates, right.

1933
02:03:58,900 --> 02:04:01,700
You can remove blood stains with
ice really.

1934
02:04:02,500 --> 02:04:07,300
Oh try your wife.
Probably know as a mother And a

1935
02:04:07,300 --> 02:04:10,700
housewife who was removed, many
of blood stains with cold water

1936
02:04:10,700 --> 02:04:14,200
and ice.
It's easily removed from, I can

1937
02:04:14,200 --> 02:04:17,400
remove blood from a white
T-shirt.

1938
02:04:19,100 --> 02:04:21,800
With ice.
Is it bad?

1939
02:04:21,800 --> 02:04:23,500
Now?
I want my kid to fall down just

1940
02:04:23,700 --> 02:04:25,300
a couple times, so we can scrape
up.

1941
02:04:25,300 --> 02:04:28,400
So I can try this, right.
You try it.

1942
02:04:28,400 --> 02:04:35,200
You'll see you can remove.
I soak blood-stained garments.

1943
02:04:36,700 --> 02:04:39,300
In water and ice and I can
remove all of the blood stain.

1944
02:04:41,500 --> 02:04:46,100
And so you have Hyrum Smith who
is packed up my right people.

1945
02:04:46,400 --> 02:04:51,000
Yeah.
So, the bodies are, but that's

1946
02:04:51,000 --> 02:04:55,000
another eyewitness account of
the mean, this is also

1947
02:04:55,000 --> 02:04:56,900
documented that the bodies were
on Ice.

1948
02:04:57,900 --> 02:05:03,300
Holy cow.
So yeah, his his theory is at

1949
02:05:03,300 --> 02:05:05,700
best on life support, now,
right?

1950
02:05:05,700 --> 02:05:11,000
As he presented it, it's hmm.
So this isn't about, will they,

1951
02:05:11,100 --> 02:05:15,100
you know, the theory that they
only washed the top, the bottom

1952
02:05:15,100 --> 02:05:16,400
part of the clothes and not the
top.

1953
02:05:16,400 --> 02:05:18,800
And that's why we have blood
stain on the top and not Bottom.

1954
02:05:20,200 --> 02:05:23,000
So I'm alleging that the blood
stains were removed because of

1955
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:25,800
the ice.
Right?

1956
02:05:25,900 --> 02:05:28,000
Because it was in his back and
he was laying on his back.

1957
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:31,400
Obviously, when you're your body
is transported, they don't put

1958
02:05:31,400 --> 02:05:35,200
you on your face.
No, no, that, no, that that

1959
02:05:35,200 --> 02:05:38,600
takes care of that, that takes
care of Griffin's assertion

1960
02:05:38,600 --> 02:05:42,600
there.
Wow, I can't wait for Weston's

1961
02:05:42,600 --> 02:05:45,400
paper, come out now, right?
And he's actually doing blood

1962
02:05:45,400 --> 02:05:48,800
analysis on the shirt as well,
friends, that blood analysis on

1963
02:05:49,000 --> 02:05:52,300
on Hiram shirt right now.
So griffing really, again,

1964
02:05:52,300 --> 02:05:54,500
pardon the expression really
pissed him off, right?

1965
02:05:54,500 --> 02:05:58,000
So, because He's very mad.
He's pretty mad.

1966
02:05:58,900 --> 02:06:00,600
Wow.
And he's not afraid to say it

1967
02:06:00,600 --> 02:06:03,900
either.
Good good.

1968
02:06:05,500 --> 02:06:08,100
Fantastic.
All right.

1969
02:06:09,900 --> 02:06:13,000
So after the martyrdom takes
place, what are some of the key

1970
02:06:13,000 --> 02:06:17,400
points about the trial?
All right, so this is also very

1971
02:06:17,400 --> 02:06:19,300
important.
I'm just going to go over just a

1972
02:06:19,300 --> 02:06:22,200
quick points so we can we can
move on.

1973
02:06:22,200 --> 02:06:28,500
But So, at the trial, the trial
begins in May of 1845.

1974
02:06:28,500 --> 02:06:33,100
We know that the Mormon leaders
are counts.

1975
02:06:33,100 --> 02:06:36,700
The council, their members, not
to attend, and the reason is is

1976
02:06:36,700 --> 02:06:39,100
because they knew, will Joseph
Smith isn't safe, you're not

1977
02:06:39,108 --> 02:06:42,800
going to be safe and we know
that the law didn't protect

1978
02:06:42,800 --> 02:06:46,000
Joseph.
The anti Mormons posted, a mob

1979
02:06:46,000 --> 02:06:49,700
of nearly 1,000 people outside
of Carthage and the courthouse

1980
02:06:49,700 --> 02:06:54,200
and the and the audience inside
of the courthouse.

1981
02:06:55,100 --> 02:06:58,300
Mob members and they all carried
guns.

1982
02:07:00,200 --> 02:07:03,200
And so this not only
intimidated, the people coming

1983
02:07:03,200 --> 02:07:05,100
to the trial but also
intimidated, the judge, and the

1984
02:07:05,108 --> 02:07:10,300
prosecution, and the jury, the
prosecution, even public

1985
02:07:10,300 --> 02:07:12,700
publicly acknowledged that the
crowd was at time Mormon.

1986
02:07:13,000 --> 02:07:16,000
And at the start of the trial,
he told the jury, there are

1987
02:07:16,000 --> 02:07:19,200
hundreds here, I have no doubt
who are ready to applaud you and

1988
02:07:19,200 --> 02:07:22,700
rejoice with you.
If you should return a verdict

1989
02:07:22,700 --> 02:07:29,100
of not guilty against these men.
Hmm, so right you know right at

1990
02:07:29,100 --> 02:07:33,200
the beginning you know this it
was pretty much a sham, be sure.

1991
02:07:34,200 --> 02:07:39,900
And and I do recommend this book
the history of Warsaw Illinois

1992
02:07:39,900 --> 02:07:43,600
by Brian stutzman.
He covers the trial in great

1993
02:07:43,600 --> 02:07:48,700
detail and and I'm just going to
read a part because he just does

1994
02:07:48,700 --> 02:07:54,400
so well about what happened when
with the jury and how it was

1995
02:07:55,200 --> 02:07:57,600
pretty much stacked against.
The Mormons.

1996
02:07:57,800 --> 02:08:02,200
So, so before the start of the
trial, the County Commissioners

1997
02:08:02,200 --> 02:08:06,500
had selected, a jury a standard
legal procedure at the time, the

1998
02:08:06,508 --> 02:08:08,600
defense opened their case by
claiming that the County

1999
02:08:08,600 --> 02:08:11,700
Commissioners that seated, the
jury were prejudiced against the

2000
02:08:11,708 --> 02:08:14,400
defendants.
They also claim the sheriff and

2001
02:08:14,400 --> 02:08:16,300
others involved were also
tainted.

2002
02:08:17,000 --> 02:08:20,400
They next said, by having
biased, people in the case, the

2003
02:08:20,400 --> 02:08:22,800
Commissioners involved in the
selecting of the jury, they

2004
02:08:22,800 --> 02:08:26,200
themselves could taint.
The jury the defense proposed

2005
02:08:26,200 --> 02:08:30,500
that the Current jury be
dismissed and a new jury pulled

2006
02:08:30,500 --> 02:08:33,100
from those currently.
In the audience, be seated,

2007
02:08:33,700 --> 02:08:38,300
prosecuting attorney, Josiah
lambourn vigorously objected and

2008
02:08:38,300 --> 02:08:41,200
claimed this procedure was not
supported in the law.

2009
02:08:41,700 --> 02:08:45,100
He ended by challenging the
defense to show legal precedents

2010
02:08:45,200 --> 02:08:48,200
or even a single case where
random people in the audience

2011
02:08:48,200 --> 02:08:52,700
had replaced a seated jury.
Now if you know beforehand,

2012
02:08:52,700 --> 02:08:55,700
there were nine Mormons in the
seated jury, right?

2013
02:08:56,200 --> 02:08:58,900
So they now require Place them
with all anti Mormons.

2014
02:09:02,000 --> 02:09:04,600
So, because they replace them
with this, with people, sitting

2015
02:09:04,600 --> 02:09:08,500
in the audience, the defense,
countered that there had never

2016
02:09:08,500 --> 02:09:10,600
been a case.
Like this specifically they

2017
02:09:10,600 --> 02:09:13,700
claimed was so much prejudiced
in the proceedings before the

2018
02:09:13,700 --> 02:09:16,500
trial.
No, precedence, precedence was

2019
02:09:16,500 --> 02:09:20,400
needed.
Incredibly judge young, accepted

2020
02:09:20,400 --> 02:09:23,000
the argument.
Dismissed, the properly seated

2021
02:09:23,000 --> 02:09:26,200
jury and seated.
A new jury with people selected

2022
02:09:26,200 --> 02:09:29,300
from the anti-mormon audience,
this change.

2023
02:09:29,300 --> 02:09:33,400
Put the prosecution, prosecution
at a Disadvantage from the

2024
02:09:33,400 --> 02:09:36,700
start.
I want to go back to something.

2025
02:09:36,700 --> 02:09:40,700
You said in the account where it
said, this people would not

2026
02:09:40,700 --> 02:09:43,900
would be.
How is that phrase that they

2027
02:09:43,900 --> 02:09:48,200
would Rejoice if not guilty
verdicts were returned?

2028
02:09:50,500 --> 02:09:53,800
In your estimation and looking
at it was that maybe A Veiled

2029
02:09:53,800 --> 02:09:58,400
Threat of, if it does come back
as guilty, you could be dealing

2030
02:09:58,400 --> 02:10:05,400
with civil unrest.
Yeah, that what was it basically

2031
02:10:05,400 --> 02:10:07,500
thrown against their lives
essentially.

2032
02:10:07,800 --> 02:10:11,300
If they're though, we're
basically they'll Rejoice, if

2033
02:10:11,300 --> 02:10:14,200
you find them not guilty, but
you know, what's going to

2034
02:10:14,200 --> 02:10:16,700
happen.
If you do find him guilty, okay.

2035
02:10:17,100 --> 02:10:20,500
It's a it's a Veiled Threat.
Okay.

2036
02:10:21,300 --> 02:10:23,800
I just wanted to make sure I
understood that correct right

2037
02:10:23,800 --> 02:10:26,500
cupcake.
So that Ryan coupled with the

2038
02:10:26,508 --> 02:10:28,800
fact that they're attending the
trial with rifles.

2039
02:10:29,500 --> 02:10:33,600
Yeah, thousand men out.
That would do it, that would do

2040
02:10:33,600 --> 02:10:38,300
it, that would scare me.
So, and then also, they make

2041
02:10:38,300 --> 02:10:43,200
sure that there is not a single
Mormon on that jury, right?

2042
02:10:43,300 --> 02:10:47,400
So it's a sham, right?
And I think that goes back also

2043
02:10:47,400 --> 02:10:51,300
to a key point that Griffin
tried to make where he said, do

2044
02:10:51,300 --> 02:10:56,100
you know, he, John Taylor told
everybody everybody within the

2045
02:10:56,100 --> 02:11:00,400
church, excuse me, that they
shouldn't test, you know, be

2046
02:11:00,400 --> 02:11:03,500
part of that trial.
And I thought it was a weak

2047
02:11:03,500 --> 02:11:06,200
statement to make because, of
course he's going to say that.

2048
02:11:06,200 --> 02:11:08,700
I mean, the account, you just
gave us.

2049
02:11:08,700 --> 02:11:11,400
There's men outside with rifles,
right?

2050
02:11:11,400 --> 02:11:15,900
Also, you've they just took out
the leader of the movement.

2051
02:11:16,600 --> 02:11:20,000
They don't have a problem taking
out somebody else who's just

2052
02:11:20,000 --> 02:11:24,800
testifying If they can get to
the to the top, you know, they

2053
02:11:24,800 --> 02:11:28,300
can get to somebody below.
Right.

2054
02:11:28,300 --> 02:11:31,900
And and again we know that the
the law wasn't going to protect

2055
02:11:31,900 --> 02:11:34,900
the Mormons know, right?
The state had failed in

2056
02:11:34,900 --> 02:11:38,600
protecting Joseph.
So your best bet was just to

2057
02:11:38,600 --> 02:11:43,600
stay away and let God have
Vengeance will and again it's

2058
02:11:43,600 --> 02:11:46,900
not just the fact that they
failed to protect Joseph.

2059
02:11:46,900 --> 02:11:48,700
I go back to what you said
earlier.

2060
02:11:48,700 --> 02:11:53,700
That caught me by surprise.
All but three states conspired

2061
02:11:53,700 --> 02:11:59,000
to kill him.
That's just not a failure to

2062
02:11:59,000 --> 02:12:02,300
pursue protect.
That is an active participant

2063
02:12:02,300 --> 02:12:05,300
hand in doing away with it,
right?

2064
02:12:05,300 --> 02:12:12,100
So yeah so and it's important.
So Joseph murderers included a

2065
02:12:12,100 --> 02:12:14,800
prominent newspaper editor which
is Thomas Sharpe.

2066
02:12:15,300 --> 02:12:17,700
A state senator who is Jacob
Davis?

2067
02:12:17,900 --> 02:12:21,100
A justice of the peace and two
military commanders.

2068
02:12:21,800 --> 02:12:24,900
Okay I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you
to repeat that again because I I

2069
02:12:24,900 --> 02:12:26,400
want to make sure I heard that
correctly.

2070
02:12:27,900 --> 02:12:34,000
A state senator was involved in
the mob in in yes, in the mob.

2071
02:12:35,500 --> 02:12:38,000
Right?
So these are the men that were

2072
02:12:38,200 --> 02:12:41,300
were chart.
There were nine men charged with

2073
02:12:41,300 --> 02:12:44,200
his murder went to trial
included.

2074
02:12:44,200 --> 02:12:46,000
The prominent newspaper editor,
who's Thomas?

2075
02:12:46,000 --> 02:12:49,800
Sharpe state senator?
Who is Jacob Davis?

2076
02:12:51,100 --> 02:12:53,600
And the justice of the peace and
to military commanders.

2077
02:12:53,900 --> 02:12:55,900
I am sorry.
I had to have you repeat that

2078
02:12:55,900 --> 02:12:59,900
but it blows my mind, right?
And these are things that and

2079
02:12:59,900 --> 02:13:03,000
again I've been in Mormonism for
25 years.

2080
02:13:03,000 --> 02:13:05,200
And these, you know, there are
some things here that you're

2081
02:13:05,200 --> 02:13:08,000
revealing that I hadn't heard
before, right?

2082
02:13:08,000 --> 02:13:12,400
I mean, the fact that it's a
state senator, a sitting state

2083
02:13:12,400 --> 02:13:16,600
senator, a newspaper guy.
I kind of get the newspaper guy,

2084
02:13:16,700 --> 02:13:18,500
right?
I mean, they've obviously been

2085
02:13:18,500 --> 02:13:25,600
slanted forever, but you know,
and then military men, its Yeah.

2086
02:13:26,400 --> 02:13:28,500
Yeah.
And so, they had promised not to

2087
02:13:28,500 --> 02:13:31,300
actually arrest these men before
the trial, and I think the

2088
02:13:31,300 --> 02:13:33,700
sheriff went in head and he
arrested.

2089
02:13:33,700 --> 02:13:37,000
Jacob Davis, who was the state
senator and then, and then the

2090
02:13:37,000 --> 02:13:39,400
Senate, and the Congress,
basically threatened, the

2091
02:13:39,400 --> 02:13:43,900
sheriff and they had to release
him. so, again, wielding their

2092
02:13:43,900 --> 02:13:51,400
political power to protect the
state senator Oh, geez.

2093
02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:56,000
I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm
pausing.

2094
02:13:56,000 --> 02:13:58,200
I'm still trying to wrap my mind
around it, right?

2095
02:13:58,200 --> 02:14:03,900
I mean this is a conspiracy that
goes up.

2096
02:14:05,600 --> 02:14:08,600
To the state level and I'm
thinking all but three states.

2097
02:14:08,800 --> 02:14:10,900
There's got to be some sort of
federal involvement.

2098
02:14:10,900 --> 02:14:14,700
Then right there, is there any
evidence you have a federal

2099
02:14:14,700 --> 02:14:18,800
involvement in?
I mean, if you think about it,

2100
02:14:18,800 --> 02:14:21,600
Joseph Smith, he asked for
redress several times from the

2101
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:25,200
president and he, he denied him.
Never got it.

2102
02:14:25,400 --> 02:14:28,900
Never got it.
Wow, he was promised redressed

2103
02:14:28,900 --> 02:14:30,900
and then he turned his back on
him.

2104
02:14:32,300 --> 02:14:35,500
Holy cow and not only that he's
running for president.

2105
02:14:35,500 --> 02:14:39,800
So of course he's again he's a
he's a threat to the federal

2106
02:14:39,800 --> 02:14:43,000
government, not just the
statement, that's another angle,

2107
02:14:43,000 --> 02:14:45,200
you know, knowing you ran for
president.

2108
02:14:45,200 --> 02:14:49,200
But yeah, that's another angle I
hadn't thought of Wow.

2109
02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:51,900
Is there any other key points
from The Trial?

2110
02:14:53,700 --> 02:14:57,600
Those are the main ones I wanted
to point out and and you know,

2111
02:14:57,600 --> 02:15:01,900
just looking at this.
This historically like this is a

2112
02:15:01,900 --> 02:15:04,200
pivotal moment in just US
History.

2113
02:15:04,300 --> 02:15:08,300
Absolutely, because there's not
another incident in American

2114
02:15:08,300 --> 02:15:11,200
history, where a major religious
figure was killed because of his

2115
02:15:11,200 --> 02:15:15,400
religion and then American law
refuse to execute Justice.

2116
02:15:16,700 --> 02:15:19,100
And it's really sad.
Considering that Joseph Smith

2117
02:15:19,100 --> 02:15:21,600
was the biggest advocate for the
Constitution of the United

2118
02:15:21,600 --> 02:15:23,200
States.
Yeah.

2119
02:15:23,900 --> 02:15:28,200
Yeah in fact the episode we did
last night we did I felt like we

2120
02:15:28,200 --> 02:15:33,700
did a good job of I shouldn't
say the the episode I just

2121
02:15:33,700 --> 02:15:37,400
released last night I felt like
we did a really good job of

2122
02:15:37,400 --> 02:15:40,500
showing that the council and 50
because that's the other

2123
02:15:40,500 --> 02:15:42,200
misconception.
You here is that the Council of

2124
02:15:42,200 --> 02:15:44,900
50 was just another way for
Joseph Smith to attain more

2125
02:15:44,900 --> 02:15:47,300
power.
And realistically, when you read

2126
02:15:47,300 --> 02:15:51,200
the notes on the Council of 50,
it was something meant to

2127
02:15:51,200 --> 02:15:56,600
support men in their rights and
so yeah, holy cow.

2128
02:15:58,000 --> 02:16:01,900
So do we know, do we have any
information about whatever

2129
02:16:01,900 --> 02:16:04,800
happened to some of those men
who were the conspirators?

2130
02:16:07,000 --> 02:16:09,100
Why?
No, like Levi Williams, like the

2131
02:16:09,200 --> 02:16:16,500
he basically was given gifts and
Yeah, I don't.

2132
02:16:16,600 --> 02:16:21,500
Other than that they just went
on and live peaceful lives and I

2133
02:16:21,500 --> 02:16:25,800
mean they'll face judgment.
I have to go back to each

2134
02:16:25,800 --> 02:16:33,200
individually but it is far as
Justice was never never served

2135
02:16:33,299 --> 02:16:35,400
never served.
So hmm.

2136
02:16:38,000 --> 02:16:43,700
Wow.
It just gives you pause to think

2137
02:16:43,700 --> 02:16:48,400
about what all was standing in
opposition to Joseph Smith.

2138
02:16:48,400 --> 02:16:51,900
During that time, it shows a
strength and depth of character

2139
02:16:51,900 --> 02:16:55,100
that I don't think we truly
begin to understand.

2140
02:16:56,600 --> 02:16:58,700
Right.
Well I mean Joseph Smith himself

2141
02:16:58,700 --> 02:17:00,799
said I'm going like the lamb to
the slaughter.

2142
02:17:01,000 --> 02:17:05,000
So we know again and he told the
Saints.

2143
02:17:05,100 --> 02:17:08,799
He told the novel Legion, right
before going to car that she

2144
02:17:08,799 --> 02:17:13,600
said, if the Saints can't have
the rights, then my blood Well

2145
02:17:14,700 --> 02:17:17,799
Fall, Like Rain On The Ground.
Jeez.

2146
02:17:17,799 --> 02:17:22,600
So he literally sacrificed
himself to protect the Saints.

2147
02:17:23,799 --> 02:17:28,900
And and again I just my biggest
criticism of Justin Griffin's

2148
02:17:28,900 --> 02:17:34,700
narrative is that it makes a
complete mockery of his death

2149
02:17:35,500 --> 02:17:39,299
and you know it's as if his
death was in vain you know?

2150
02:17:39,299 --> 02:17:43,900
If he's if he's murdered from
the inside for by Brigham Young

2151
02:17:43,900 --> 02:17:47,299
to take over the church, then
his then his death is in vain.

2152
02:17:47,600 --> 02:17:50,400
The restoration is insane,
right?

2153
02:17:51,100 --> 02:17:53,200
That means that no priesthood
continues.

2154
02:17:53,200 --> 02:17:56,100
No.
He's continued then then what

2155
02:17:56,100 --> 02:17:57,799
are we?
Where's our hope?

2156
02:17:58,299 --> 02:17:59,299
Right?
Right.

2157
02:17:59,299 --> 02:18:02,299
There's there's no restoration.
There's no priesthood line of

2158
02:18:02,299 --> 02:18:04,799
authority.
There's there's nothing jeez.

2159
02:18:05,299 --> 02:18:09,400
Yeah.
So let's go ahead and move on

2160
02:18:09,400 --> 02:18:11,799
there then to to some of those
prophetic parallels.

2161
02:18:11,799 --> 02:18:13,500
Because I gotta be honest with
you.

2162
02:18:13,508 --> 02:18:17,900
As you were telling me some of
that stuff from from our phone

2163
02:18:17,900 --> 02:18:23,299
conversation, I was blown away.
It was so fascinating to hear,

2164
02:18:23,600 --> 02:18:26,200
All of this.
Right.

2165
02:18:26,200 --> 02:18:30,100
It is actually very fascinating
and I won't have time to get

2166
02:18:30,100 --> 02:18:32,500
into all of the details, but I
just want to.

2167
02:18:33,100 --> 02:18:35,400
So I basically do just want to
Bear testimony.

2168
02:18:37,400 --> 02:18:40,700
That the martyrdom of the
Prophet Joseph Smith, like his

2169
02:18:40,700 --> 02:18:46,299
life. is actually the
Fulfillment of Hundreds of years

2170
02:18:46,299 --> 02:18:50,900
of of ancient biblical prophecy.
Meaning if Joseph Smith is

2171
02:18:50,900 --> 02:18:55,100
prophesied in scripture, which
he is of the servant to come

2172
02:18:55,100 --> 02:18:58,100
forth in the latter days to
restore the gospel.

2173
02:18:58,600 --> 02:19:01,600
That means every part of his
life is prophesied of his life,

2174
02:19:01,600 --> 02:19:03,700
his mission, including his
death.

2175
02:19:04,299 --> 02:19:09,200
And so I just want to show how
and where in scriptures is

2176
02:19:10,100 --> 02:19:12,799
Joseph Smith death prophesied
of, because it's a prophetic

2177
02:19:12,799 --> 02:19:18,200
event.
Okay, so John just get started.

2178
02:19:18,200 --> 02:19:21,400
Yeah, let's just dive into that
because, okay, this, this is

2179
02:19:21,400 --> 02:19:24,299
some juicy stuff, right?
As you were telling me about it.

2180
02:19:24,400 --> 02:19:26,500
This, this really got me
excited.

2181
02:19:27,700 --> 02:19:29,500
Okay, so I'm going to need to
read some quotes.

2182
02:19:29,500 --> 02:19:34,000
And, and really, again, it has
to have to understand who the

2183
02:19:34,000 --> 02:19:36,700
Prophet Joseph Smith is right,
right?

2184
02:19:36,900 --> 02:19:43,600
We really do need to understand
that that he is like John Taylor

2185
02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:47,299
Gatto Testified, he did more
save Jesus Christ, only for the

2186
02:19:47,299 --> 02:19:51,700
Salvation of men, right?
Yeah, yeah, it's a bold

2187
02:19:51,700 --> 02:19:53,400
statement.
Uh-huh.

2188
02:19:54,100 --> 02:20:00,200
But it can be backed up.
That is I will test.

2189
02:20:00,200 --> 02:20:05,900
I will go to my grave bearing,
testimony of that fact, and I as

2190
02:20:05,900 --> 02:20:10,600
well, because, and it's another
bold statement to stay that, I

2191
02:20:10,600 --> 02:20:13,700
think next to the death in the
crucifixion.

2192
02:20:13,900 --> 02:20:18,300
Just as Jesus Christ.
This is probably one of the most

2193
02:20:18,300 --> 02:20:21,100
important events in in all of
history.

2194
02:20:21,500 --> 02:20:27,800
I can't even the martyrdom of
Smith, I can't agree at all, not

2195
02:20:27,800 --> 02:20:30,100
just his martyrdom, but his life
in general.

2196
02:20:30,700 --> 02:20:35,200
I when I lived out on the
eastern shore of Maryland and I

2197
02:20:35,200 --> 02:20:39,700
had an opportunity because we
subbed out to the University of

2198
02:20:39,700 --> 02:20:43,000
Maryland, they had kind of a
satellite campus and just real

2199
02:20:43,000 --> 02:20:45,600
quick.
I took a course in Jacksonian

2200
02:20:45,600 --> 02:20:48,600
America and they covered the
Mormons a little bit.

2201
02:20:48,600 --> 02:20:52,000
And when it came to the section
about the Mormons, and I don't

2202
02:20:52,000 --> 02:20:54,300
think my professor knew I was
LDS.

2203
02:20:55,100 --> 02:20:56,500
He said something that just
struck me.

2204
02:20:56,500 --> 02:20:58,900
He said, when you're dealing
with Joseph Smith, you have to

2205
02:20:58,900 --> 02:21:01,300
come to one of two conclusions,
either.

2206
02:21:01,300 --> 02:21:04,800
He was the most raw genius that
has ever been produced in

2207
02:21:04,800 --> 02:21:10,100
America and certainly America's
time, but maybe the world Or he

2208
02:21:10,100 --> 02:21:17,700
was exactly what he said he was.
And and I wrote that quote down

2209
02:21:17,700 --> 02:21:21,600
and I've kept it all these years
and it's burned into my heart

2210
02:21:21,600 --> 02:21:25,100
because I know where I fall on
them, right?

2211
02:21:25,100 --> 02:21:29,000
And and Joseph Smith did say in
the council 50 that he was a God

2212
02:21:29,000 --> 02:21:35,200
to this generation.
So so you know like as we've

2213
02:21:35,200 --> 02:21:38,100
been talking about the martyrdom
again we were talking about what

2214
02:21:38,100 --> 02:21:42,600
happened leading up to a but we
really have to understand why,

2215
02:21:42,800 --> 02:21:45,000
why the martyrdom, why It have
to happen.

2216
02:21:46,000 --> 02:21:48,900
And so, just prior to his death,
the Prophet Joseph Smith

2217
02:21:48,900 --> 02:21:51,500
declared, I am tired.
I have been mobbed.

2218
02:21:51,500 --> 02:21:54,700
I have suffered so much.
Some of the Brethren think that

2219
02:21:54,700 --> 02:21:57,400
they can carry this work out
better than I can far better.

2220
02:21:58,000 --> 02:22:00,500
I've asked the Lord to take me
out of this world.

2221
02:22:00,600 --> 02:22:04,700
I have stood all I can.
And then he said, I have to

2222
02:22:04,700 --> 02:22:07,600
steal my testimony to this
generation with my blood.

2223
02:22:08,200 --> 02:22:11,900
I have to do it for this.
Work will never progress until

2224
02:22:11,900 --> 02:22:16,100
I'm gone for the testimony.
It is of no Force until the

2225
02:22:16,100 --> 02:22:20,000
death of the testator.
And then he goes on to say,

2226
02:22:20,200 --> 02:22:23,200
people little know who I am,
when they talk about me and they

2227
02:22:23,200 --> 02:22:27,100
never know, will they never will
know until they see me weighed

2228
02:22:27,100 --> 02:22:28,800
in the balance in the kingdom of
God.

2229
02:22:29,000 --> 02:22:32,300
Then they will know who I am.
See me as I am.

2230
02:22:32,700 --> 02:22:35,500
I dare not tell them and they do
not know me.

2231
02:22:37,100 --> 02:22:39,900
Cool.
So Joseph Smith is saying that

2232
02:22:39,900 --> 02:22:44,300
even even though the Saints did
not ever know who he really was,

2233
02:22:45,100 --> 02:22:49,700
right, they did not know him and
so I think sometimes we

2234
02:22:49,700 --> 02:22:54,300
oversimplify the martyrdom.
And so here you saying The

2235
02:22:54,300 --> 02:22:58,200
Testament is of no Force until
the death of the testator, and

2236
02:22:58,200 --> 02:23:01,100
Paul in the New Testament,
taught the exact same principle.

2237
02:23:01,600 --> 02:23:05,500
So, in the New Testament, Paul
said, the blood must be shed as

2238
02:23:05,500 --> 02:23:07,000
the price of freedom and of
Ruth.

2239
02:23:07,000 --> 02:23:11,200
But most of all, as the price of
the witness of Jesus Christ, he

2240
02:23:11,200 --> 02:23:16,500
said in Hebrews chapter 9 for a
testament is of is a force after

2241
02:23:16,500 --> 02:23:19,500
men are dead.
Otherwise it is of no strength

2242
02:23:19,500 --> 02:23:22,000
at all.
While the testator liveth

2243
02:23:22,400 --> 02:23:24,500
whereupon.
Neither the first testament was

2244
02:23:24,500 --> 02:23:30,500
dedicated without blood.
And so, it's significant to know

2245
02:23:30,500 --> 02:23:34,200
the, in the Joseph Smith,
translation of Hebrews chapter 9

2246
02:23:34,900 --> 02:23:38,300
that the word testament is
replaced with the word covenant.

2247
02:23:40,700 --> 02:23:45,400
so, Basically Joseph.
It's saying if you so if she

2248
02:23:45,400 --> 02:23:49,700
read those scriptures he's
saying the Covenant is not in

2249
02:23:49,700 --> 02:23:53,400
force until the testator's is
dead.

2250
02:23:54,900 --> 02:23:58,900
So Joseph Smith, he shed his
blood in order that the final

2251
02:23:58,900 --> 02:24:02,700
Testament or in other words the
re-establishment of the New

2252
02:24:02,700 --> 02:24:05,100
Covenant might be in full
effect.

2253
02:24:06,000 --> 02:24:07,600
Right.
He's re-establishing the

2254
02:24:07,600 --> 02:24:12,200
Covenant, the abrahamic Covenant
to this generation and it's not

2255
02:24:12,200 --> 02:24:15,400
in full effect until he sheds
his blood.

2256
02:24:16,800 --> 02:24:23,700
According to Hebrews chapter 9
that is and that's one of the

2257
02:24:23,700 --> 02:24:28,100
things that because the
translation or Whatever Gets

2258
02:24:28,200 --> 02:24:34,000
overlooked, It makes sense.
It keeps with Biblical

2259
02:24:34,000 --> 02:24:39,200
tradition, scriptural,
tradition, and also puts Joseph

2260
02:24:39,200 --> 02:24:43,400
Smith in a light.
Of being.

2261
02:24:46,000 --> 02:24:52,600
A willing sacrifice next next to
Jesus only exactly.

2262
02:24:53,300 --> 02:24:55,700
And you know I want to talk
about the symbolism of blood for

2263
02:24:55,700 --> 02:24:57,900
a minute because blood is a
simple.

2264
02:24:58,100 --> 02:25:01,800
This is the symbol excuse me, as
symbol of death but is also a

2265
02:25:01,808 --> 02:25:07,200
symbol of life.
And when so when Adam was cast

2266
02:25:07,200 --> 02:25:09,300
out of the Garden of Eden,
right?

2267
02:25:09,400 --> 02:25:16,700
And and the coats of skins were
made for him as a covering, it's

2268
02:25:17,000 --> 02:25:21,800
it's the idea that something had
to die for Adam to be covered,

2269
02:25:22,500 --> 02:25:24,800
right?
So the animal had to die, had to

2270
02:25:24,800 --> 02:25:28,100
shed his blood, in order for
Adam to be covered.

2271
02:25:29,000 --> 02:25:33,700
And so, the idea that in order
That blood is a symbol of life,

2272
02:25:33,700 --> 02:25:36,000
our new life, new birth.
Right?

2273
02:25:36,000 --> 02:25:39,500
We see that in the symbolism of
when a woman gives birth, it's

2274
02:25:39,500 --> 02:25:41,700
there has to be blood and water
present.

2275
02:25:41,700 --> 02:25:48,400
So symbolism of rebirth, and
anyway, we can go into I mean

2276
02:25:48,400 --> 02:25:50,000
that's a different topic.
Lots of Sims.

2277
02:25:50,000 --> 02:25:53,400
Yeah, I actually love gospel
symbolism but Joseph Fielding

2278
02:25:53,400 --> 02:25:55,900
Smith also said, Joseph Smith
had to die.

2279
02:25:56,000 --> 02:25:57,600
Why?
Because we read in the

2280
02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:00,400
scriptures that the testimony is
not a force without the death of

2281
02:26:00,400 --> 02:26:04,700
the testator that is in his
particular case but also in the

2282
02:26:04,700 --> 02:26:08,100
case of Jesus Christ, the
stealing of the testimony

2283
02:26:08,100 --> 02:26:10,700
through the shedding of blood
would not have been complete in

2284
02:26:10,700 --> 02:26:14,000
the death of the Prophet Joseph
Smith alone, it required the

2285
02:26:14,000 --> 02:26:16,900
death of Hyrum Smith and the
Prophet Joseph Smith.

2286
02:26:17,000 --> 02:26:18,500
Who jointly held the keys of
this?

2287
02:26:18,500 --> 02:26:21,900
Dispensation it was needful that
these Martyrs still their

2288
02:26:21,900 --> 02:26:24,700
testimony with their blood that
they might be honored.

2289
02:26:24,700 --> 02:26:26,900
And the wicked might be
condemned.

2290
02:26:27,200 --> 02:26:33,000
So it wasn't just, the Joseph
Smith had to die, but we also

2291
02:26:33,000 --> 02:26:36,600
know that Hyrum Smith held held
the keys jointly with Joseph

2292
02:26:36,600 --> 02:26:38,200
Smith.
I don't know if you knew that so

2293
02:26:38,200 --> 02:26:42,000
I guess yeah but it is a point
that's often overlooked right?

2294
02:26:42,000 --> 02:26:49,400
Is that Hiram was was
essentially profit one a if you

2295
02:26:49,400 --> 02:26:53,200
will right right behind Joseph.
But they held the keys jointly

2296
02:26:53,200 --> 02:26:55,900
together, right?
And so they both they both had

2297
02:26:55,900 --> 02:27:00,700
two silver testimony for And so
they both had to die and we see

2298
02:27:00,800 --> 02:27:04,400
so again he's teaching so again
yet.

2299
02:27:04,400 --> 02:27:07,100
So you have Paul saying the
covenants not enforced, without

2300
02:27:07,100 --> 02:27:10,200
the death of the testator and
Joseph Fielding Smith is saying

2301
02:27:10,200 --> 02:27:13,700
well it they also need to steal
their testimony of blood

2302
02:27:14,500 --> 02:27:17,800
basically.
So it stands as a testimony for

2303
02:27:17,800 --> 02:27:21,500
the righteous and against the
wicked and this principles

2304
02:27:21,500 --> 02:27:24,300
taught in the Book of Mormon, we
have the story of a bended, I

2305
02:27:25,600 --> 02:27:30,000
fire and His death was also an
active with witnessing through

2306
02:27:30,000 --> 02:27:35,200
the ceiling of the testimony of
his blood. right, so when you

2307
02:27:35,200 --> 02:27:41,600
think of I've been a die, he
could not die.

2308
02:27:41,800 --> 02:27:45,300
Or is what he's giving that
final testimony testimony to

2309
02:27:45,300 --> 02:27:46,000
King.
Noah.

2310
02:27:46,600 --> 02:27:49,300
He basically is saying you
can't, you know, I'm not gonna

2311
02:27:49,300 --> 02:27:52,900
die until I witness against you
and then his testimony is sealed

2312
02:27:52,900 --> 02:27:57,000
with his blood.
If that makes sense, if you go

2313
02:27:57,000 --> 02:28:00,300
back and study his know that
that makes perfect sense.

2314
02:28:00,300 --> 02:28:03,800
And we saw that with, with some
of the Apostles to, right?

2315
02:28:04,100 --> 02:28:13,100
Peter, I believe, Stephen, all
of them had to, to give up to

2316
02:28:13,100 --> 02:28:16,100
seal that testimony with their
blood, right?

2317
02:28:16,700 --> 02:28:20,400
So in mosiah 17, verses 9
through 10, that event that I

2318
02:28:20,400 --> 02:28:24,000
says, yeah, and I will suffer
even in to death and I will not

2319
02:28:24,000 --> 02:28:27,300
recall my words and they shall
And as a testimony against you,

2320
02:28:27,300 --> 02:28:30,600
and if he slay me, you shall
slay innocent blood and this

2321
02:28:30,600 --> 02:28:34,300
shall also stand as a testimony
against you at the last day.

2322
02:28:34,900 --> 02:28:38,600
So we see that this this
principle he's teaching it is

2323
02:28:38,600 --> 02:28:42,300
that the ceiling of the blood is
an act of witnessing, right?

2324
02:28:42,300 --> 02:28:45,900
It's going to stand as a
testimony against the wicked.

2325
02:28:46,900 --> 02:28:50,400
Which is pretty.
I think it's pretty profound

2326
02:28:50,400 --> 02:28:53,800
when you think about it you
know.

2327
02:28:53,800 --> 02:28:55,900
You don't want to be mocking.
Joseph Smith's death.

2328
02:28:56,200 --> 02:28:58,200
No.
Yeah.

2329
02:28:59,400 --> 02:29:01,300
It's going to stand as a
testimony against you.

2330
02:29:01,800 --> 02:29:05,900
Yeah.
So I think that's it was that's

2331
02:29:05,900 --> 02:29:08,500
why we need to understand the
prophetic significance of the

2332
02:29:08,500 --> 02:29:11,500
martyrdom.
Anyway.

2333
02:29:12,300 --> 02:29:14,400
Yeah.
So Jewels back to what you said

2334
02:29:14,400 --> 02:29:17,500
makes a mockery of Joseph
Smith's Right.

2335
02:29:17,600 --> 02:29:20,200
Right.
And anybody who may start to

2336
02:29:20,200 --> 02:29:24,500
participate in that in any way,
shape, or form by promoting this

2337
02:29:24,500 --> 02:29:28,900
movie could, I'll never pretend
to know the mind and will of the

2338
02:29:28,900 --> 02:29:32,900
almighty, but could be on that
same Shaky Ground, right?

2339
02:29:32,900 --> 02:29:38,800
And and so I do hope that there
that, you know, as as more

2340
02:29:38,800 --> 02:29:42,500
evidence comes out of and more
people are too are willing to

2341
02:29:42,500 --> 02:29:44,800
Bear testimony of the
truthfulness of the martyrdom,

2342
02:29:44,800 --> 02:29:48,400
like Sam Weston and others.
They can show forensically

2343
02:29:49,000 --> 02:29:50,700
different aspects of the market
on my eye.

2344
02:29:50,700 --> 02:29:52,700
My prayer.
My prayer is that Justin Griffin

2345
02:29:52,700 --> 02:29:55,500
will repent.
And those are, they're pushing.

2346
02:29:55,500 --> 02:29:58,900
This narrative will be called
the repentance, so that they

2347
02:29:58,900 --> 02:30:02,900
don't, they don't have to stand
at the Judgment bar right and

2348
02:30:02,900 --> 02:30:05,600
have that testimony witness
against them of what they've

2349
02:30:05,600 --> 02:30:08,400
done.
So, you know, I do have a lot

2350
02:30:08,400 --> 02:30:13,100
of, you know, I'm willing to
give Mercy to those and my

2351
02:30:13,100 --> 02:30:17,200
prayer is, you know, is that
it's another reason I do want to

2352
02:30:17,208 --> 02:30:21,500
stand as a witness and and I
guess as a voice for the truth.

2353
02:30:21,500 --> 02:30:26,000
So it is so that you know, the
they'll be given an opportunity

2354
02:30:26,000 --> 02:30:28,400
to repent.
So I just wanted to add that in

2355
02:30:28,400 --> 02:30:32,400
there but I do want to.
I also want to say though that

2356
02:30:32,900 --> 02:30:37,600
if Justin narrative is truth and
nothing of prophetic consequence

2357
02:30:37,600 --> 02:30:39,300
happened, right?
Right.

2358
02:30:39,600 --> 02:30:43,700
Go by his friends for no other
reason, then they want power.

2359
02:30:44,500 --> 02:30:49,000
And then that means that There's
nothing a prophetic consequence

2360
02:30:49,200 --> 02:30:52,400
in the martyrdom.
And and my argument is is that

2361
02:30:53,500 --> 02:31:03,500
the martyrdom is it is a
fulfillment of Prophecy. so, I

2362
02:31:03,500 --> 02:31:08,400
don't know how there's a lot we
could get into Bruce.

2363
02:31:08,400 --> 02:31:12,300
Our McConkey did say he said
every prophecy about any of the

2364
02:31:12,300 --> 02:31:15,900
great, and glorious events
destined to take place in the

2365
02:31:15,900 --> 02:31:19,100
dispensation of the fullness of
time is in its nature.

2366
02:31:19,100 --> 02:31:26,500
A prophecy about Joseph Smith,
so, Yeah.

2367
02:31:27,900 --> 02:31:30,800
You can't escape it right?
You have to deal with Joseph

2368
02:31:30,800 --> 02:31:34,400
Smith.
You have to deal not just with

2369
02:31:34,400 --> 02:31:37,900
his life.
But with his martyrdom, right?

2370
02:31:40,100 --> 02:31:45,600
Everything Is prophesied Right,
wipe life, including his death.

2371
02:31:46,200 --> 02:31:51,100
And so I believe that every
member of the church, You know

2372
02:31:52,100 --> 02:31:57,000
everyone who anyone who claims
to know that Joseph Smith is a

2373
02:31:57,000 --> 02:31:59,600
prophet.
They have to have a solid

2374
02:31:59,600 --> 02:32:04,800
testimony and a witness That he
was the man designated even

2375
02:32:04,800 --> 02:32:08,700
before the foundations of the
earth to stand at the head of

2376
02:32:08,700 --> 02:32:11,900
this, the greatest of gospel,
dispensations, right?

2377
02:32:11,900 --> 02:32:16,600
That he is his life in his
mission is not just, it was

2378
02:32:16,600 --> 02:32:19,900
foreordained before.
Even the foundations of the

2379
02:32:19,900 --> 02:32:22,600
earth we have to have that.
Sure witness and testimony.

2380
02:32:26,700 --> 02:32:29,400
And that his life and Mission
was known to all of the Holy

2381
02:32:29,400 --> 02:32:31,400
prophets.
Even before the real world, the

2382
02:32:31,400 --> 02:32:36,300
world began.
He was he was known by both name

2383
02:32:36,300 --> 02:32:39,200
and family to the ancient
prophets who described his role

2384
02:32:39,200 --> 02:32:41,700
in the Gathering of Israel and
bringing forth, The Book of

2385
02:32:41,700 --> 02:32:44,200
Mormon and adding the Canon of
scripture was personal

2386
02:32:44,200 --> 02:32:47,600
Revelations and restoring other
ancient scriptural text.

2387
02:32:48,300 --> 02:32:52,000
I mean we should know that you
know Adam Enoch Noah Abraham

2388
02:32:52,000 --> 02:32:56,000
Moses.
They all knew Joseph Smith.

2389
02:32:57,400 --> 02:33:00,200
They didn't just know him.
They actually also all came to

2390
02:33:00,200 --> 02:33:02,900
him.
It's recorded in that I believe

2391
02:33:02,900 --> 02:33:06,400
section 128 of the Doctrine and
Covenants, you're correct.

2392
02:33:06,400 --> 02:33:09,200
They all came to him and they
all personally taught him, a

2393
02:33:09,200 --> 02:33:11,000
tutor them and gave them their
keys.

2394
02:33:11,500 --> 02:33:14,600
Yeah.
Kimberly I'm going to say

2395
02:33:14,600 --> 02:33:17,800
something and you can correct me
if you think I'm off base here.

2396
02:33:19,000 --> 02:33:24,100
But next to a testimony of the
Savior and of God, the Father

2397
02:33:25,600 --> 02:33:33,400
The testimony of who Joseph was
and his prophetic role is

2398
02:33:33,400 --> 02:33:36,300
essential.
In Mormonism.

2399
02:33:37,900 --> 02:33:41,800
For not only salvation, but
exaltation is that overstating

2400
02:33:41,800 --> 02:33:45,400
it in any way.
Not at all.

2401
02:33:45,600 --> 02:33:49,300
I mean, we have prophetic quotes
of Brigham Young saying no one's

2402
02:33:49,300 --> 02:33:51,900
getting into the Celestial
Kingdom without the certificate

2403
02:33:51,900 --> 02:33:57,400
of Joseph Smith, junior, right?
Right, he is a vital figure.

2404
02:33:58,100 --> 02:34:05,800
He is Again, next to Jesus only
is the only thing I keep coming

2405
02:34:05,800 --> 02:34:09,700
back to over and over again.
Which makes all the things we've

2406
02:34:09,700 --> 02:34:14,400
talked about previously, so,
important that you have a

2407
02:34:14,400 --> 02:34:16,900
correct and true understanding
of it.

2408
02:34:18,100 --> 02:34:20,400
Because if it's perverted in any
way.

2409
02:34:22,800 --> 02:34:27,400
Your testimony really isn't a
force in that right?

2410
02:34:28,200 --> 02:34:30,900
Yep.
I mean there's I have so many

2411
02:34:30,900 --> 02:34:35,000
quotes but I'll try to get to
the most important here.

2412
02:34:36,300 --> 02:34:41,000
So, But I think it's also
important and this is just a

2413
02:34:41,008 --> 02:34:45,200
little other side note to that
Hiram hires Nate hirings name

2414
02:34:45,200 --> 02:34:47,800
because again we were talking
about how Hiram had to be also

2415
02:34:47,800 --> 02:34:50,900
be martyred with with Joseph
Smith in order to steal that

2416
02:34:50,900 --> 02:34:54,500
testimony or established that
Covenant and hirings name in

2417
02:34:54,500 --> 02:34:57,000
Hebrew means, my brother is
exalted.

2418
02:34:57,700 --> 02:35:02,400
So right there he you know, he
testifies of his name he is

2419
02:35:02,400 --> 02:35:06,500
testifying of who Joseph Smith
is anyway.

2420
02:35:06,500 --> 02:35:11,800
So I just think what appropriate
name for him to would have been

2421
02:35:11,800 --> 02:35:14,600
given to the man who was
destined to do to Carthage and

2422
02:35:14,600 --> 02:35:18,400
steal his testimony with his
blood along side of Joseph Smith

2423
02:35:18,600 --> 02:35:21,700
and I don't laugh because I
think it's funny I laugh because

2424
02:35:23,300 --> 02:35:25,600
You can't you couldn't have made
that up, right?

2425
02:35:25,600 --> 02:35:31,400
I mean that's just You see the
hand of the almighty and all of

2426
02:35:31,400 --> 02:35:34,300
this all the way through.
All right.

2427
02:35:34,800 --> 02:35:37,900
Yep.
And and then I want to also

2428
02:35:37,900 --> 02:35:42,100
point out there's the legend of
the Messiah, Ben Joseph.

2429
02:35:42,800 --> 02:35:45,600
And I want to bring that up
because this is of great

2430
02:35:45,600 --> 02:35:48,200
significance in this isn't this
is a Hebrew tradition.

2431
02:35:48,200 --> 02:35:51,800
This is a Jewish tradition, but
we have, we have Latter-Day

2432
02:35:51,800 --> 02:35:55,400
Saints, Scholars, who have also,
you know, Joseph Fielding

2433
02:35:55,400 --> 02:35:57,900
mcconkie.
He actually wrote a book on

2434
02:35:57,900 --> 02:36:00,600
this.
He and his name shall be Joseph

2435
02:36:00,700 --> 02:36:04,100
about the Messiah Ben Joseph
prophecies, and how they relate

2436
02:36:04,100 --> 02:36:06,800
to Joseph Smith.
There's other Scholars that have

2437
02:36:06,800 --> 02:36:11,200
come out of BYU.
I think his name is Trevor

2438
02:36:11,700 --> 02:36:13,900
hatch.
I think he also wrote an

2439
02:36:14,100 --> 02:36:17,300
excellent paper on this.
So this isn't, this is a this is

2440
02:36:17,300 --> 02:36:22,800
actually a Jewish Legend but
it's also been corroborated by

2441
02:36:23,000 --> 02:36:24,500
several Latter-Day Saints
dollars.

2442
02:36:25,000 --> 02:36:29,800
So, so what is the legend of the
Messiah Ben Joseph There's an

2443
02:36:29,800 --> 02:36:33,300
ancient Hebrew tradition, which
speaks of two separate Messiahs

2444
02:36:33,300 --> 02:36:36,200
that were for deigned to rise
among Covenant people of the

2445
02:36:36,200 --> 02:36:38,800
Lord, one from the tribe of
Judah.

2446
02:36:40,200 --> 02:36:42,100
And one from the tribe of
Joseph.

2447
02:36:43,200 --> 02:36:46,800
So we have to understand the
Messiah in Hebrew means anointed

2448
02:36:46,800 --> 02:36:47,800
one.
Hmm.

2449
02:36:48,400 --> 02:36:53,500
So Messiah Ben, there's so
there's two, Messiahs, one is

2450
02:36:53,500 --> 02:36:57,400
Messiah, Ben, David and Messiah,
Ben Joseph, so Messiah.

2451
02:36:57,400 --> 02:37:01,600
Ben David is the anointed one
from the tribe of Judah and the

2452
02:37:01,600 --> 02:37:03,100
Messiah.
Ben Joseph is the anointed one

2453
02:37:03,100 --> 02:37:08,800
from the tribe of Joseph, right?
So it doesn't mean that there's

2454
02:37:08,800 --> 02:37:12,500
two, Messiahs, that workout at
home, adjust that It just means

2455
02:37:12,500 --> 02:37:17,000
anointed one.
So the Messiah Ben, Joseph

2456
02:37:17,000 --> 02:37:19,300
concept first arose.
When Rachel, the mother of

2457
02:37:19,300 --> 02:37:22,800
Joseph of Egypt prophesied that
Joseph would be the ancestor of

2458
02:37:22,800 --> 02:37:25,200
a messiah.
Who would Arise at the end of

2459
02:37:26,100 --> 02:37:32,100
the end of days.
So it's scriptural Chand and

2460
02:37:32,100 --> 02:37:34,200
then we can go into all the
prophecies people should be

2461
02:37:34,200 --> 02:37:36,400
familiar if they read the
scriptures.

2462
02:37:37,000 --> 02:37:39,800
Joseph Egypt.
Name's Joseph Smith, right?

2463
02:37:39,800 --> 02:37:42,500
Right.
I'll be his servant as

2464
02:37:42,500 --> 02:37:45,200
Latter-Day.
Seer raised up out of my loins

2465
02:37:45,400 --> 02:37:48,400
to come forth.
We know Joseph in Egypt, he's

2466
02:37:48,400 --> 02:37:53,000
prophesying of this Messiah
named Joseph.

2467
02:37:53,800 --> 02:37:56,300
You know, coming from the tribe
of Joseph.

2468
02:37:58,100 --> 02:38:03,200
We have, you know, so that's in
Genesis chapter 50.

2469
02:38:03,200 --> 02:38:05,700
I would recommend reading the
Joseph Smith translation on that

2470
02:38:05,700 --> 02:38:10,100
one.
So he's for telling the events

2471
02:38:10,100 --> 02:38:13,200
Joseph in Egypt is actually in
Joseph, Smith's patriarchal

2472
02:38:13,200 --> 02:38:20,700
blessing and In his paycheck a
blessing in 1834 I'll just read

2473
02:38:20,700 --> 02:38:26,300
it quick quote from that it says
behold and now this is the

2474
02:38:26,308 --> 02:38:29,400
patriarchal blessing given to
him by his father, okay?

2475
02:38:29,400 --> 02:38:32,600
Joseph Smith Senior, he says,
behold he looked after it, he

2476
02:38:32,600 --> 02:38:35,600
speaking of Joseph, in Egypt to
Joseph Smith, he said, behold,

2477
02:38:35,600 --> 02:38:38,700
he looked after his posterity in
the last days when they should

2478
02:38:38,700 --> 02:38:41,600
be scattered and driven by the
Gentiles and wept before the

2479
02:38:41,600 --> 02:38:45,700
Lord He sought diligently to
know from whence, the sun should

2480
02:38:45,700 --> 02:38:47,500
come.
Who should bring forth the word

2481
02:38:47,500 --> 02:38:50,400
of the Lord, by which, they
might be enlightened and brought

2482
02:38:50,400 --> 02:38:52,700
back to the true fold and his
eyes beheld.

2483
02:38:52,700 --> 02:38:59,000
Lee my son, his heart rejoiced
in his soul is satisfied, Wow.

2484
02:38:59,400 --> 02:39:03,500
So he was saying that Joseph in
Egypt was praying to the Lord

2485
02:39:03,500 --> 02:39:07,000
saying, who is this son?
That you promised would come

2486
02:39:07,000 --> 02:39:10,300
forced together.
My people and the Lord showed

2487
02:39:10,300 --> 02:39:12,600
him Joseph Smith.
And then Joseph Smith Senior

2488
02:39:12,600 --> 02:39:19,300
saying he beheld thee, my son,
and and Joseph Smith taught that

2489
02:39:19,300 --> 02:39:21,700
the patriarchal Authority belong
to the blood of Joseph.

2490
02:39:21,900 --> 02:39:25,400
And so he established his father
Joseph Smith Senior as the

2491
02:39:25,400 --> 02:39:29,200
patriarch of the church in a The
about his father Joseph

2492
02:39:29,200 --> 02:39:32,200
pronounced, the same blessing on
his father that Jacob had on

2493
02:39:32,200 --> 02:39:34,900
Joseph.
Quote, he shall be as a fruitful

2494
02:39:34,900 --> 02:39:38,500
bough even a fruitful bough by a
well, whose branches run over

2495
02:39:38,500 --> 02:39:41,400
the wall and his seed shall
Biden strength.

2496
02:39:43,900 --> 02:39:45,900
So, that was a prophecy about
his own father.

2497
02:39:48,300 --> 02:39:50,300
Right?
So it's pretty.

2498
02:39:50,300 --> 02:39:54,000
It's pretty significant that he
is, you know, he's this

2499
02:39:54,000 --> 02:39:57,700
prophesied figure that the blood
of Joseph in Egypt is going to

2500
02:39:57,700 --> 02:40:01,100
run through the veins of Joseph
Smith and his family.

2501
02:40:01,500 --> 02:40:05,000
And that's what establishes.
The priesthood Authority in this

2502
02:40:05,000 --> 02:40:08,600
last.
Dispensation it's a it's a it's

2503
02:40:08,600 --> 02:40:13,400
a blood lineage right and so
Messiah.

2504
02:40:13,400 --> 02:40:17,700
Ben Joseph.
Is no minor minor figure in

2505
02:40:17,800 --> 02:40:21,000
Hebrew tradition and in the
scriptures and I'm just going to

2506
02:40:21,000 --> 02:40:25,900
read, I'll just read of some of
the Prophecies of this Messiah,

2507
02:40:25,900 --> 02:40:29,700
Ben, Joseph and and it will be
easy to see how they parallel

2508
02:40:29,700 --> 02:40:35,100
Joseph Smith, right?
So and this is setting up to how

2509
02:40:35,800 --> 02:40:38,000
the prophetic parallels of his
death.

2510
02:40:38,000 --> 02:40:39,900
So it's kind of a, we have to
understand again.

2511
02:40:39,900 --> 02:40:42,700
So we have to understand if his
life is prophesied in scripture

2512
02:40:42,700 --> 02:40:45,500
and so has his death.
So Messiah Ben.

2513
02:40:45,800 --> 02:40:49,000
Joseph prophecy is that he will
be the second in rank of the two

2514
02:40:49,000 --> 02:40:51,600
Messiahs.
Right.

2515
02:40:51,700 --> 02:40:55,600
So we can see that right?
If he does more say Jesus

2516
02:40:55,600 --> 02:40:58,100
Christ, only right that kind of
rank.

2517
02:40:59,500 --> 02:41:02,100
He's referred to as as king
Messiah.

2518
02:41:03,100 --> 02:41:05,200
So again Joseph Smith was
crowned king of Israel.

2519
02:41:05,700 --> 02:41:09,100
Yeah.
The Council of fifty and he did

2520
02:41:09,100 --> 02:41:11,900
then obviously other prophecy we
talked about that.

2521
02:41:11,900 --> 02:41:14,100
He descends from the tribe of
Joseph through Ephraim.

2522
02:41:15,300 --> 02:41:17,700
Which we know.
He's that was that's in Doctrine

2523
02:41:17,700 --> 02:41:21,400
and Covenants.
So the Messiah Ben Joseph, so

2524
02:41:21,500 --> 02:41:24,400
here's the other prophecies, the
Messiah Ben Joseph is to be held

2525
02:41:24,400 --> 02:41:26,400
in reserve to live on the earth
in the last days.

2526
02:41:26,900 --> 02:41:28,900
Now these are prophecies coming
from.

2527
02:41:29,100 --> 02:41:30,500
These are what the Jews are
saying.

2528
02:41:30,600 --> 02:41:31,800
These are saying these are
prophecies.

2529
02:41:31,800 --> 02:41:35,600
We've identified in scripture
about this Messiah, Ben, Joseph,

2530
02:41:35,600 --> 02:41:38,300
that they don't know the
identity of, right?

2531
02:41:38,300 --> 02:41:40,400
He said, well, he'll be in held
in reserve to live on the earth.

2532
02:41:40,400 --> 02:41:43,900
And last days, the Messiah Ben
Joseph is to be born to the

2533
02:41:43,900 --> 02:41:46,400
lineage of Joseph.
Egypt's Birthright Saint ephrem,

2534
02:41:47,200 --> 02:41:51,000
right yard.
We already know that the Messiah

2535
02:41:51,000 --> 02:41:54,100
Ben Joseph is to live upon the
Earth prior to when Messiah, Ben

2536
02:41:54,100 --> 02:41:58,000
David appears in all his glory
and is to act as his Forerunner.

2537
02:42:00,500 --> 02:42:02,900
You know, you think, oh, they
just, we could just enter some

2538
02:42:02,900 --> 02:42:05,300
to Joseph Smith.
They would they would know that

2539
02:42:05,300 --> 02:42:09,100
this is the side that they're
looking for the Messiah Ben.

2540
02:42:09,100 --> 02:42:12,600
Joseph is to be the revealer of
the true faith of Jehovah and

2541
02:42:12,600 --> 02:42:15,300
one Jewish Legend goes of the
age of Besides that.

2542
02:42:15,300 --> 02:42:20,300
The Messiah Ben, Joseph Joseph
cause will will cause some

2543
02:42:20,300 --> 02:42:23,200
erroneous elements of religious
worship that had been in crept

2544
02:42:23,200 --> 02:42:25,300
in among the Israelite tribes to
vanish.

2545
02:42:25,800 --> 02:42:30,800
Thus he will perform his work.
After a period of apostasy G and

2546
02:42:30,800 --> 02:42:34,500
that's been fulfilled, right?
The prophet alight.

2547
02:42:34,500 --> 02:42:43,200
Okay, we know that love this.
Well, we know about how the

2548
02:42:43,200 --> 02:42:45,800
Prophet Elijah.
Elijah has returned to the Earth

2549
02:42:45,800 --> 02:42:49,100
and that's foretold in the days
of the Messiah, Ben Joseph.

2550
02:42:50,100 --> 02:42:52,800
So, they believe also that the
Prophet Elijah will return

2551
02:42:52,900 --> 02:42:56,400
during the days of Messiah
Mendoza, which we know that

2552
02:42:56,400 --> 02:42:59,500
that's also, prefer has been
fulfilled, right?

2553
02:42:59,600 --> 02:43:01,600
Because because Elijah appeared
to him.

2554
02:43:02,000 --> 02:43:04,900
Hmm, Masai.
Ben, Joseph is to rebuild the

2555
02:43:04,908 --> 02:43:07,300
Temple of Israel and restore its
true worship.

2556
02:43:08,500 --> 02:43:10,600
Wow, we know that that was
fulfilled.

2557
02:43:10,700 --> 02:43:16,300
And so, The Messiah Ben Joseph
is to gather the children of

2558
02:43:16,300 --> 02:43:19,800
Israel around him including a
portion of the Lost ten tribes.

2559
02:43:20,800 --> 02:43:24,000
And we know that that still in
fulfillment, right?

2560
02:43:24,800 --> 02:43:28,200
That's still happening.
Now, that, that is the true.

2561
02:43:28,200 --> 02:43:33,100
Israel will only be gathered to
the true Messiah, right?

2562
02:43:33,500 --> 02:43:39,700
Yep, if I is Ben, David Wright,
the Messiah Ben, Joseph, would

2563
02:43:39,700 --> 02:43:41,600
be protected by the Messiah, Ben
David.

2564
02:43:41,800 --> 02:43:44,600
So again, this goes back to
Joseph, Smith's prophecy where

2565
02:43:44,600 --> 02:43:48,300
he's saying I will not die into
my work has been fulfilled.

2566
02:43:49,100 --> 02:43:51,500
And that was, that's the proof.
Prophecy of the Messiah.

2567
02:43:51,500 --> 02:43:55,200
Ben Joseph is that he would be
protected until he could fulfill

2568
02:43:55,200 --> 02:44:01,200
his mission, right?
And like I said, before the

2569
02:44:01,208 --> 02:44:04,800
Messiah Ben Joseph is to be a
king again, we already

2570
02:44:04,800 --> 02:44:07,200
established that he was crowned,
king of Israel.

2571
02:44:07,700 --> 02:44:09,900
And then the most compelling is
the Messiah.

2572
02:44:09,900 --> 02:44:11,600
Ben, Joseph is to die as a
martyr.

2573
02:44:13,500 --> 02:44:16,300
But again, these are the Hebrew
traditions of who this Messiah

2574
02:44:16,300 --> 02:44:18,300
Ben Joseph is, he said, I as a
martyr.

2575
02:44:21,000 --> 02:44:24,700
And again, when John Taylor,
informs us, that when Joseph

2576
02:44:24,700 --> 02:44:27,300
Smith went to Carthage to
deliver himself up.

2577
02:44:28,100 --> 02:44:30,200
To the pretended requirements of
the law.

2578
02:44:31,100 --> 02:44:33,600
He said, I'm going like a lamb
to the slaughter, but I am calm

2579
02:44:33,600 --> 02:44:36,100
as the Summers morning.
I have conscience void of

2580
02:44:36,100 --> 02:44:39,600
offense toward God, and toward
all men, I shall die innocent,

2581
02:44:39,600 --> 02:44:43,100
and it shall be said of me.
He was murdered in Cold Blood,

2582
02:44:44,100 --> 02:44:50,000
so he truly is a martyr.
So, the story.

2583
02:44:50,200 --> 02:44:54,300
So the story of Joseph and Hyrum
is death is more than a

2584
02:44:54,308 --> 02:44:56,500
martyrdom.
It's more than a ceiling of the

2585
02:44:56,500 --> 02:44:59,300
testimony and blood.
It's the story of two men who

2586
02:44:59,300 --> 02:45:02,600
were willing to die for their
people, the per the prophet

2587
02:45:02,600 --> 02:45:05,000
fulfilled, his vow and Spilled
his blood and behalf of his

2588
02:45:05,000 --> 02:45:08,100
beloved Saints.
For many centuries, the house of

2589
02:45:08,100 --> 02:45:11,000
Israel, likely performed
sacrifices in remembrance of

2590
02:45:11,000 --> 02:45:14,300
both the Son of God and also the
Prophet Joseph Smith.

2591
02:45:15,300 --> 02:45:17,300
And there is Elias astronomer
dr.

2592
02:45:17,300 --> 02:45:18,200
John P.
Pratt.

2593
02:45:18,200 --> 02:45:20,000
Who?
Who did excellent research on

2594
02:45:20,000 --> 02:45:22,500
this?
And so I'm just going to quote

2595
02:45:22,500 --> 02:45:27,600
him.
He says every day two Lambs were

2596
02:45:27,600 --> 02:45:31,200
sacrificed one at dawn and one
in the afternoon and he's

2597
02:45:31,200 --> 02:45:35,100
talking about the Mosaic
sacrifices it has been suggested

2598
02:45:35,100 --> 02:45:38,100
that the first lamp sacrifice
did it Dawn the Meridian of

2599
02:45:38,100 --> 02:45:43,800
their day which began at Sunset
represented, Jesus Christ known

2600
02:45:43,800 --> 02:45:47,100
as the Messiah ben-judah, the
anointed one from the tribe of

2601
02:45:47,100 --> 02:45:50,400
Judah.
Which would be Christ, right?

2602
02:45:50,600 --> 02:45:53,300
The second lamb sacrificed near
the end of day.

2603
02:45:53,400 --> 02:45:55,600
Representing near the end of
History.

2604
02:45:55,600 --> 02:45:59,500
Likely symbolized Joseph Smith
known as the Messiah Ben Joseph

2605
02:45:59,800 --> 02:46:03,100
being from that tribe.
Thus Joseph Smith was apparently

2606
02:46:03,100 --> 02:46:06,900
of such stature to have been
civilized by daily sacrifice in

2607
02:46:06,900 --> 02:46:10,400
the law of Moses.
Wow.

2608
02:46:11,400 --> 02:46:15,400
Yeah, it's pretty significant
going back to Messiah Ben

2609
02:46:15,400 --> 02:46:17,900
Joseph.
The first time I heard about

2610
02:46:17,900 --> 02:46:21,500
that Kimberly, I was living
again on the Eastern Shore and I

2611
02:46:21,500 --> 02:46:26,100
worked with a guy whose dad was
a rabbi and they had invited me

2612
02:46:26,100 --> 02:46:30,500
and my family over for their
Sabbath meal and their

2613
02:46:30,500 --> 02:46:33,700
tradition.
And I got a chance to talk with

2614
02:46:33,700 --> 02:46:35,700
his dad and his dad's name was
Zeke.

2615
02:46:36,700 --> 02:46:41,100
And as we were talking and he
was asking me about my religion

2616
02:46:41,500 --> 02:46:45,200
and what I believed because, you
know, there's there's plenty of

2617
02:46:45,200 --> 02:46:48,300
Mormons on the East Coast but
we're pretty far scattered,

2618
02:46:48,300 --> 02:46:53,700
right?
As I told them about who Joseph

2619
02:46:53,700 --> 02:46:56,800
Smith was he I'll never forget
it because he just kind of

2620
02:46:56,800 --> 02:46:58,500
leaned back in his chair a
little bit.

2621
02:46:58,900 --> 02:47:01,300
And he looked at me and he's
like, that sounds an awful lot

2622
02:47:01,300 --> 02:47:04,300
like Messiah Ben Joseph and I
was like, well who's that?

2623
02:47:04,300 --> 02:47:07,900
And he basically said everything
you said, - a few things.

2624
02:47:07,900 --> 02:47:11,300
I didn't know that he was
supposed to be a martyr, but he

2625
02:47:11,300 --> 02:47:16,200
talked about Temple temples and
priesthood and all those other

2626
02:47:16,200 --> 02:47:20,000
things.
I heard that 15 plus years ago

2627
02:47:20,000 --> 02:47:25,900
now and it's just again.
I mean, the parallels are so

2628
02:47:25,900 --> 02:47:29,900
striking and if you just use you
know, the science of statistical

2629
02:47:29,900 --> 02:47:31,700
probability that that would
happen.

2630
02:47:32,900 --> 02:47:37,200
It's next to Impossible and it's
not like Joseph Smith could have

2631
02:47:37,200 --> 02:47:40,200
set himself up to be that
because that, that tradition

2632
02:47:40,900 --> 02:47:43,900
wasn't something that was
commonly shared with quote

2633
02:47:43,900 --> 02:47:46,300
Gentiles.
That was something that was kept

2634
02:47:46,300 --> 02:47:49,900
pretty guarded by by the rabbi.
Eyes from what I understand for

2635
02:47:49,900 --> 02:47:54,100
a long time, right?
And so there's more.

2636
02:47:56,100 --> 02:48:01,000
So the, so the symbol for the
Messiah, Ben Joseph is the

2637
02:48:01,000 --> 02:48:05,200
Bullock.
And that's the symbol the ball.

2638
02:48:05,200 --> 02:48:07,600
It's also the symbol of the
tribe of Joseph with the two

2639
02:48:07,600 --> 02:48:09,500
horns symbolizing Ephraim and
Manasseh.

2640
02:48:11,000 --> 02:48:13,400
And so we know that, you know,
the from has a Divine Mission

2641
02:48:13,400 --> 02:48:15,400
together.
Israel in the latter days and

2642
02:48:15,400 --> 02:48:17,400
Joseph Smith leads the mission
as the head of this.

2643
02:48:17,400 --> 02:48:20,600
Dispensation.
So you see that Elijah's mortal

2644
02:48:20,600 --> 02:48:25,100
life and the and the mission of
the Prophet Joseph Smith have

2645
02:48:25,400 --> 02:48:27,800
interesting parallels.
So when the Prophet Elijah

2646
02:48:27,800 --> 02:48:31,400
conferred, his keys upon the
Prophet Joseph Smith, he was in

2647
02:48:31,400 --> 02:48:33,000
daring.
Power for Joseph Smith to

2648
02:48:33,008 --> 02:48:35,500
accomplish a mission.
Similar to enforce shadowed by

2649
02:48:35,500 --> 02:48:37,300
the prophet Elijah's mortal
mission.

2650
02:48:37,800 --> 02:48:40,900
In other words, Elijah's mortal
life was a prefiguring of Joseph

2651
02:48:40,900 --> 02:48:44,300
Smith.
So when Elijah, offered

2652
02:48:44,300 --> 02:48:48,900
sacrifice the evening sacrifice
it, centered around a bowl, the

2653
02:48:48,900 --> 02:48:54,200
Bullock lying on the altar.
As a sacrifice was with, then.

2654
02:48:54,200 --> 02:48:56,800
I would argue far more than a
ritual ceremony.

2655
02:48:57,000 --> 02:49:00,400
It was likely a prophetic
foreshadowing of the literal

2656
02:49:00,400 --> 02:49:02,500
Human Sacrifice.
That would be Forgotten the

2657
02:49:02,500 --> 02:49:05,300
Saints and the hope that Zion
would be preserved and

2658
02:49:05,300 --> 02:49:09,200
eventually established.
So Joseph had to sacrifice

2659
02:49:09,200 --> 02:49:11,600
himself.
Geez.

2660
02:49:14,200 --> 02:49:19,700
Yeah, holy cow.
Ed gave me goosebumps.

2661
02:49:20,100 --> 02:49:27,300
I mean, just just Look, I'm a
guy who likes to talk but some

2662
02:49:27,300 --> 02:49:29,600
of this is just leaving.
Me speechless thinking about it,

2663
02:49:29,600 --> 02:49:37,700
write it and again you can't.
You have to deal with Joseph

2664
02:49:37,700 --> 02:49:41,000
Smith.
You have to come to a testimony

2665
02:49:41,600 --> 02:49:46,400
of his prophetic calling that
seems to have Echoes as far back

2666
02:49:46,400 --> 02:49:49,300
as the Human family can go.
Right.

2667
02:49:50,500 --> 02:49:53,300
Including his FIU said, so, his
death is being foreshadowed.

2668
02:49:53,600 --> 02:49:57,300
Yeah, he is going to.
He lay him down his self down as

2669
02:49:57,300 --> 02:50:01,600
a sacrifice.
Write it, it's not just that,

2670
02:50:01,600 --> 02:50:04,300
you know, he foreshadowing, that
he would be killed.

2671
02:50:04,300 --> 02:50:06,100
It's like, no, he's going to lay
his down.

2672
02:50:06,100 --> 02:50:10,400
His, he's going to lay himself
down as that sacrifice, right?

2673
02:50:10,400 --> 02:50:13,300
And, and there's there's so much
that that ties into that, right?

2674
02:50:13,300 --> 02:50:17,700
Like that was the sacrifice of
the evening, right?

2675
02:50:17,700 --> 02:50:22,100
The, the bullet, right?
Is that a reference to where we

2676
02:50:22,100 --> 02:50:24,200
are?
If you were to say, you know,

2677
02:50:24,300 --> 02:50:28,100
all of human existence is a day.
Does that tell us where we are?

2678
02:50:28,100 --> 02:50:32,100
That we're in Evening now are we
that close?

2679
02:50:32,600 --> 02:50:37,800
Yep we it exactly.
And and so Joseph Smith said on

2680
02:50:37,800 --> 02:50:41,800
June 16 1844 like he's for
telling what's lying ahead.

2681
02:50:41,800 --> 02:50:45,600
He says I do not regard my own
life, I'm ready to be offered a

2682
02:50:45,600 --> 02:50:48,900
sacrifice for this people.
He says for what can our enemies

2683
02:50:48,900 --> 02:50:50,900
do?
Only kill the body and their

2684
02:50:50,900 --> 02:50:54,500
power is done at an end stand
for my friends.

2685
02:50:54,500 --> 02:50:58,500
Never Flinch do not seek to save
your lives for he that is afraid

2686
02:50:58,500 --> 02:51:00,400
to die for.
The truth will lose eternal

2687
02:51:00,400 --> 02:51:03,500
life.
Hold out to the end and we shall

2688
02:51:03,500 --> 02:51:06,700
be resurrected and become like
gods, and rain, and Celestial

2689
02:51:06,700 --> 02:51:09,300
kingdoms principalities and
eternal dominions.

2690
02:51:09,300 --> 02:51:12,600
While this mob will sink into
the portion of all, those who

2691
02:51:12,600 --> 02:51:16,500
shed innocent blood God has
tried, you, you are a good

2692
02:51:16,500 --> 02:51:18,600
people.
Therefore, I love you with all

2693
02:51:18,600 --> 02:51:23,600
my heart greater love hath.
No, man than that.

2694
02:51:23,600 --> 02:51:25,500
He should lay down his life for
his friends.

2695
02:51:26,200 --> 02:51:28,300
You have stood by me in the hour
of trouble.

2696
02:51:28,400 --> 02:51:34,000
I am Think to sacrifice my life
for your preservation and that

2697
02:51:34,000 --> 02:51:37,100
was in the millennial star Vol
54 page 409.

2698
02:51:38,900 --> 02:51:42,000
Jeez.
So again, he's saying I am

2699
02:51:42,000 --> 02:51:44,700
dying.
I'm sacrificing myself for you

2700
02:51:44,900 --> 02:51:53,100
in order to save you.
So again, as I said, dozens of

2701
02:51:53,108 --> 02:51:57,000
times throughout this interview,
Joseph Justin Griffin's movie

2702
02:51:57,000 --> 02:51:59,600
makes a complete, mockery of
this sacrifice.

2703
02:52:04,100 --> 02:52:10,000
Yeah, it's I don't even know
what other word to call it,

2704
02:52:10,008 --> 02:52:15,000
other than sacrilegious, right?
I mean, And and when you start

2705
02:52:15,000 --> 02:52:20,800
gaining, a better idea of just
how important Joseph was in the

2706
02:52:20,800 --> 02:52:26,300
plan of human of human in the
Quest for human exaltation.

2707
02:52:30,500 --> 02:52:34,700
right, I'm sorry, I'm sorry I'm
at a loss for words here because

2708
02:52:36,000 --> 02:52:41,600
It's breathtaking when you
understand the scope, right?

2709
02:52:41,600 --> 02:52:45,200
That someone.
And you can only hope that he

2710
02:52:45,200 --> 02:52:46,800
doesn't know what he's doing,
right?

2711
02:52:46,800 --> 02:52:50,600
That he doesn't have a testimony
of how important Joseph Smith

2712
02:52:50,600 --> 02:52:56,800
is, because I feel like if he
did You are committing a pretty

2713
02:52:56,800 --> 02:53:01,400
grave sin that I'm not sure you
can really come back from right?

2714
02:53:01,400 --> 02:53:03,900
I would agree.
I My Hope Is that he just

2715
02:53:03,900 --> 02:53:07,100
doesn't you know, with more
knowledge because more

2716
02:53:07,100 --> 02:53:09,900
condemnation and I would just
hope that he lacks this

2717
02:53:09,900 --> 02:53:12,300
sufficient knowledge to really
understand what he's doing.

2718
02:53:12,800 --> 02:53:15,400
Right?
You know because I do pray for

2719
02:53:15,500 --> 02:53:21,800
Mercy because like I said this
is akin to Betraying the Savior?

2720
02:53:22,100 --> 02:53:26,900
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
It's pretty serious.

2721
02:53:26,900 --> 02:53:31,100
What's happening?
And so, I think, again, I'm

2722
02:53:31,100 --> 02:53:35,400
hoping that I can be a voice or
a testimony of other people.

2723
02:53:35,400 --> 02:53:39,800
So that, you know, if they
follow this narrative, they'll

2724
02:53:39,800 --> 02:53:43,500
be counted among Traders.
His, their names will go down in

2725
02:53:43,500 --> 02:53:45,900
history as traitors.
Absolutely.

2726
02:53:46,100 --> 02:53:48,600
I don't think that's
overstating, it whatsoever.

2727
02:53:49,300 --> 02:53:53,800
At all.
And I just want to commend you

2728
02:53:53,800 --> 02:53:55,400
on the work.
You've done Kimberly.

2729
02:53:55,400 --> 02:54:00,700
I see no man, no person.
That's a that has led that

2730
02:54:00,700 --> 02:54:05,700
charge as vigorously as you have
a lot of folks.

2731
02:54:05,700 --> 02:54:10,100
Do you have big debt, they
really do because you have been

2732
02:54:10,100 --> 02:54:13,800
at the Forefront of this thing.
You know, I haven't, I feel like

2733
02:54:13,800 --> 02:54:17,500
I haven't always probably, you
know, my Approach hasn't always

2734
02:54:17,500 --> 02:54:21,600
been good.
I'm very passionate obviously

2735
02:54:21,600 --> 02:54:25,100
about this topic and and muchly
my desires because I just don't

2736
02:54:25,100 --> 02:54:27,700
want to see anybody else to see
know.

2737
02:54:27,700 --> 02:54:33,700
So and at the same time you know
raising my voice in the Public

2738
02:54:33,700 --> 02:54:36,500
Square defense of you know
Brigham Young.

2739
02:54:36,500 --> 02:54:39,500
And John Taylor really Richards
has come with a lot of

2740
02:54:39,500 --> 02:54:45,100
persecution and so you know,
I've taken some pretty big hits

2741
02:54:45,100 --> 02:54:52,100
against my own character. and
so, And that's been hard but but

2742
02:54:52,100 --> 02:54:54,100
nothing compared to what the
saints went through.

2743
02:54:54,100 --> 02:54:59,000
Like, it's nothing compared to
the persecution, you know, that

2744
02:54:59,000 --> 02:55:02,200
those that laid the foundation
suffered for the cause of Truth

2745
02:55:02,200 --> 02:55:05,100
and righteousness.
And so I just if anything, I

2746
02:55:05,100 --> 02:55:10,700
just I I just feel compelled to
to just to Bear testimony of

2747
02:55:10,700 --> 02:55:12,500
what they did because
ultimately, they made the

2748
02:55:12,500 --> 02:55:16,700
ultimate sacrifice and and you
know being called names and

2749
02:55:17,500 --> 02:55:21,000
being told and crazy and other
accusations that Wait, I just

2750
02:55:21,000 --> 02:55:24,100
think it's nothing compared to
what Joseph Smith did, what?

2751
02:55:24,100 --> 02:55:27,500
Brigham Young did leading the
Saints across Uncharted

2752
02:55:27,500 --> 02:55:29,800
Territory.
You know, those that lay down

2753
02:55:29,800 --> 02:55:33,400
their life, the pluralize of
Joseph Smith are being

2754
02:55:33,400 --> 02:55:35,400
persecuted.
Their names are being drug

2755
02:55:35,400 --> 02:55:38,500
through the mud right now,
they're being called liars and

2756
02:55:38,500 --> 02:55:42,600
whores and and things like that.
And so it's nothing compared to

2757
02:55:42,600 --> 02:55:45,500
what I feel like my forefathers
and foremothers have done for

2758
02:55:45,500 --> 02:55:48,000
me.
So I count it as a privilege to

2759
02:55:48,000 --> 02:55:51,100
stand in defense of their name
and to stand up for their

2760
02:55:51,100 --> 02:55:56,500
character.
Well, look, We can edit this

2761
02:55:56,500 --> 02:55:58,400
part out later if you want me
to.

2762
02:55:59,100 --> 02:56:03,000
But when you, when you and I
first started to text when I was

2763
02:56:03,000 --> 02:56:05,800
asking you to come on in and you
recommended that I talked to

2764
02:56:05,800 --> 02:56:09,300
some other folks.
And you told me what it was, you

2765
02:56:09,300 --> 02:56:11,500
didn't give me details.
But you told me what it was you

2766
02:56:11,500 --> 02:56:15,400
were going through.
I didn't want to say it over

2767
02:56:15,400 --> 02:56:19,800
text because it seemed too
impersonal, but that sacrifice

2768
02:56:20,000 --> 02:56:23,600
that you made will be accounted
for, right?

2769
02:56:23,600 --> 02:56:28,800
I mean, God, God has a way of
rectifying, all of that history

2770
02:56:29,300 --> 02:56:35,500
has a way of, you know, sorting
out who was right and who was

2771
02:56:35,500 --> 02:56:41,300
wrong and I don't know you well
but I know enough to know that

2772
02:56:41,300 --> 02:56:44,400
your character is beyond
reproach when it comes to this

2773
02:56:44,400 --> 02:56:47,500
stuff.
Again, I can't thank you enough

2774
02:56:47,500 --> 02:56:49,200
for what you've done to this
point.

2775
02:56:51,100 --> 02:56:54,700
I appreciate you saying that.
It's just definitely think the

2776
02:56:54,700 --> 02:56:56,400
strong.
All right.

2777
02:56:58,200 --> 02:57:04,000
Yeah so so just just moving on.
I think this is the this is

2778
02:57:04,000 --> 02:57:07,200
exciting part of the prophetic
parallels of the martyrdom.

2779
02:57:07,500 --> 02:57:11,300
So So let's ask the question,
then was the death of Joseph and

2780
02:57:11,300 --> 02:57:15,200
Hyrum really a prophetic events.
And in order to answer that,

2781
02:57:15,200 --> 02:57:18,000
we're going to go to the Book of
Daniel because the Book of

2782
02:57:18,000 --> 02:57:20,000
Daniel is a blueprint for the
restoration.

2783
02:57:20,100 --> 02:57:23,200
Yep.
And we know that because with

2784
02:57:23,200 --> 02:57:26,600
the scripture about the stone,
cut out of the mountain and and

2785
02:57:28,500 --> 02:57:33,300
So Joseph Joseph Smith actually
said he said quote, I calculate

2786
02:57:33,300 --> 02:57:36,200
to be one of the instruments of
setting up the kingdom of Daniel

2787
02:57:36,200 --> 02:57:39,700
by the word of the Lord and I
attend to lay the foundation lay

2788
02:57:39,700 --> 02:57:43,300
a foundation that will Revel,
revolutionize, the whole world.

2789
02:57:44,200 --> 02:57:47,600
It's in history of the church,
volume 6 page 365.

2790
02:57:48,300 --> 02:57:53,500
So again, he's telling us that
the Book of Daniel is basically

2791
02:57:53,500 --> 02:57:55,300
a group blueprint for the
kingdom of God.

2792
02:57:55,600 --> 02:57:58,000
And because he's saying, I'm an
instrument and setting up,

2793
02:57:58,100 --> 02:58:04,100
Kingdom from the kingdom of
Daniel once when the prophet was

2794
02:58:04,100 --> 02:58:09,200
preaching from Daniel chapter 2
or excuse me 4:2?

2795
02:58:09,200 --> 02:58:15,800
No. 2:4 he said the kingdom
referred to Was already set up

2796
02:58:16,100 --> 02:58:18,400
and that he was the king over
it.

2797
02:58:19,200 --> 02:58:21,000
Wow.
Right.

2798
02:58:21,000 --> 02:58:26,100
So he has testifying to Joseph's
kingship in Israel with the

2799
02:58:26,108 --> 02:58:29,200
Council of 50, right?
And he's also telling us that

2800
02:58:29,200 --> 02:58:33,000
he's the one fulfilling prophecy
in Daniel, right?

2801
02:58:33,000 --> 02:58:37,000
Right.
So, so the Book of Daniel

2802
02:58:37,100 --> 02:58:43,800
pinpoints the the year of the
martyrdom It pinpoints 1844 as

2803
02:58:43,800 --> 02:58:47,600
the prophetic event.
So just a few Generations ago a

2804
02:58:47,700 --> 02:58:51,500
an estimated 100,000 Christians
expected Christ to return in

2805
02:58:51,500 --> 02:58:55,800
1844 in the 19th century.
There was a, there was a man

2806
02:58:55,800 --> 02:58:59,200
named William Miller who was a
contemporary of Joseph Smith.

2807
02:59:00,500 --> 02:59:03,800
So he's right, he's around the
same time as Joseph Smith.

2808
02:59:03,800 --> 02:59:06,300
He's he was a Baptist from
Western Vermont.

2809
02:59:06,500 --> 02:59:09,800
Same state as Joseph Smith, he
moved to New York.

2810
02:59:10,900 --> 02:59:13,500
He converted to the state.
He converted during the same

2811
02:59:13,500 --> 02:59:17,700
religious revivals that excited
Joseph Smith and then he began

2812
02:59:17,700 --> 02:59:24,400
studying the Bible intensely in
1831 after an extensive 14-year

2813
02:59:24,400 --> 02:59:28,100
study, the Bible, William Miller
calculated.

2814
02:59:28,100 --> 02:59:31,300
That the second coming of Jesus
Christ with occur in 1844.

2815
02:59:31,900 --> 02:59:35,000
And his conclusions were
basically large on the

2816
02:59:35,000 --> 02:59:38,400
interpretations of the symbolic
meaning of the prophecies in

2817
02:59:38,400 --> 02:59:43,000
Daniel especially Daniel.
I'm 8:14.

2818
02:59:45,300 --> 02:59:48,900
And I don't have my Bible in
front of me.

2819
02:59:50,400 --> 02:59:53,500
Let me just hurry and Google it
so I can read that to you you're

2820
02:59:53,500 --> 02:59:57,400
just fine.
So now again it's it's symbolic

2821
02:59:57,800 --> 03:00:05,200
this prophecy.
So it's so I'll just read it to

2822
03:00:05,200 --> 03:00:09,600
you.
Make sure I'm getting the right,

2823
03:00:09,600 --> 03:00:12,100
the right version.
Okay.

2824
03:00:12,100 --> 03:00:16,200
So Again will and William
Miller's prophecy about the

2825
03:00:16,200 --> 03:00:18,900
second coming of Christ.
Being 1844 is based on the

2826
03:00:18,900 --> 03:00:23,100
scripture in Daniel and he said
unto him to me and to two

2827
03:00:23,100 --> 03:00:27,300
thousand and three hundred days
then shall the sanctuary be

2828
03:00:27,300 --> 03:00:29,900
cleansed.
Okay.

2829
03:00:29,900 --> 03:00:34,900
Now Most people reading that
from the say that has nothing to

2830
03:00:34,900 --> 03:00:37,300
do with the martyrdom or Joseph
Smith, right?

2831
03:00:38,700 --> 03:00:44,000
But again, it's symbolic.
And it's a it's a mathematical

2832
03:00:44,000 --> 03:00:49,100
prophecy, right, right.
Because he's saying unto 2300

2833
03:00:49,100 --> 03:00:51,300
days.
Now we have to understand two

2834
03:00:51,300 --> 03:00:53,600
things about this prophecy.
Number one, it's a mathematical

2835
03:00:53,600 --> 03:00:58,100
prophecy similar to when Lehigh
says in 600 years.

2836
03:00:58,100 --> 03:01:02,400
Will Jesus Christ be born right?
He's actually giving exact date,

2837
03:01:02,400 --> 03:01:03,600
right?
He's right.

2838
03:01:03,900 --> 03:01:06,400
So mathematically prophecy.
Number two, you have to

2839
03:01:06,400 --> 03:01:09,500
understand about this prophecy
that is in Hebrew days means

2840
03:01:09,500 --> 03:01:12,600
years, right?
Right.

2841
03:01:12,600 --> 03:01:15,700
And we can go back and I can
show you scripturally how that's

2842
03:01:15,700 --> 03:01:17,600
true.
And if you go back and read the

2843
03:01:17,600 --> 03:01:22,400
story of when Joseph is
actually, is it Joseph or Jacob?

2844
03:01:23,800 --> 03:01:27,400
With Leah and Rachel.
I think that was Jacob.

2845
03:01:27,400 --> 03:01:28,700
Yep.
Jacob sorry.

2846
03:01:29,000 --> 03:01:30,000
No.
It's okay.

2847
03:01:30,500 --> 03:01:33,200
So if you read the verse when
when you know his father tells

2848
03:01:33,200 --> 03:01:36,000
them you have to work for seven
days and then it translated into

2849
03:01:36,000 --> 03:01:39,400
seven years.
It's an example of how shows

2850
03:01:39,400 --> 03:01:42,100
that the Hebrews understood days
to me in years?

2851
03:01:43,200 --> 03:01:45,000
That was just an example.
You have to go back and read.

2852
03:01:45,800 --> 03:01:49,300
So, okay, so again it's a
mathematical prophecy.

2853
03:01:49,400 --> 03:01:52,400
Something is going to happen in
two thousand and three hundred

2854
03:01:52,400 --> 03:01:57,000
days which In Hebrew is years,
two thousand, three hundred

2855
03:01:57,000 --> 03:01:59,900
years and then the sanctuary
will be cleansed.

2856
03:02:00,100 --> 03:02:02,400
Okay.
So William William Miller knew

2857
03:02:02,600 --> 03:02:06,100
something was going to happen,
you know?

2858
03:02:07,600 --> 03:02:13,200
From and he goes back through
other chapters and Daniel where

2859
03:02:13,200 --> 03:02:15,800
he pinpoints the starting point
of that prophecy.

2860
03:02:16,800 --> 03:02:24,300
And that's all been laid out by
a man named John Dee Nelson, who

2861
03:02:24,308 --> 03:02:25,800
is actually a member of the
church.

2862
03:02:26,900 --> 03:02:31,600
He basically goes through all of
the research of how he came.

2863
03:02:31,900 --> 03:02:38,100
How this William Miller came up
with scripturally from The Book

2864
03:02:38,100 --> 03:02:40,900
of Daniel how he came up with a
starting point and I would just

2865
03:02:40,900 --> 03:02:43,400
have to recommend people read
that because it's to

2866
03:02:43,400 --> 03:02:48,400
comprehensive for me to go over
and podcast sure but your

2867
03:02:48,400 --> 03:02:50,700
estimation is it's rock solid
though right?

2868
03:02:50,900 --> 03:02:54,300
It's rock solid.
Well okay you got like it, you

2869
03:02:54,300 --> 03:02:59,900
go through his math.
You actually you could find, you

2870
03:02:59,900 --> 03:03:05,800
could actually find it online.
If you just there's a movie,

2871
03:03:05,800 --> 03:03:08,400
there was a movie written about
it and they go through and they

2872
03:03:08,400 --> 03:03:10,800
show the calc how William Miller
came out.

2873
03:03:10,900 --> 03:03:14,500
Come up, came out with the
calculations scripturally, it's

2874
03:03:14,500 --> 03:03:17,200
rock solid.
So he goes back and he basically

2875
03:03:17,200 --> 03:03:23,300
assigns a year to win.
Daniel, makes that prophecy

2876
03:03:23,300 --> 03:03:25,000
right.
Look, I start his own.

2877
03:03:25,000 --> 03:03:26,500
He's like, okay, here's the
starting point.

2878
03:03:26,600 --> 03:03:29,900
Point and it, and then ending
point of this 2000, whatever

2879
03:03:29,900 --> 03:03:37,400
gears ends and 1844, okay?
Okay, so but it wasn't just

2880
03:03:37,400 --> 03:03:39,800
William Miller, there were
scores of other prominent Bible

2881
03:03:39,800 --> 03:03:43,600
scholars around the world.
That agreed that Daniels

2882
03:03:43,600 --> 03:03:46,500
prophecy would find its
fulfillment in the 1840s.

2883
03:03:47,000 --> 03:03:51,900
So it wasn't just him.
It was like I said, hundreds

2884
03:03:51,900 --> 03:03:54,200
around the world.
This was a worldwide phenomena,

2885
03:03:54,600 --> 03:03:59,400
right?
At this time, a Bostick, a

2886
03:03:59,400 --> 03:04:03,800
Boston clergyman said, if these
days are years, meaning again,

2887
03:04:03,800 --> 03:04:07,600
going back to that scripture.
If these days are years, any

2888
03:04:07,600 --> 03:04:13,200
Schoolboy can see it for a 492
terminated terminated at the

2889
03:04:13,200 --> 03:04:18,700
death of Christ, the 2300 days,
would terminate in 1844 and the

2890
03:04:18,900 --> 03:04:22,800
It must end unless it can be
shown that some other event is

2891
03:04:22,800 --> 03:04:25,600
to take place.
I do not see how that can be

2892
03:04:25,600 --> 03:04:29,500
done.
So they've narrowed down 1844 is

2893
03:04:29,500 --> 03:04:33,000
this pivotal year in human
history, right?

2894
03:04:33,500 --> 03:04:35,500
And the only inference that he
can't.

2895
03:04:35,800 --> 03:04:39,300
Yes, prophetic.
But the only inference he can

2896
03:04:39,300 --> 03:04:43,800
make is that that is Christ's
return because he's like, if

2897
03:04:43,800 --> 03:04:46,300
it's not that it's something
else but I don't know what else

2898
03:04:46,300 --> 03:04:51,100
it could be right because Then
they don't have the advantage of

2899
03:04:52,200 --> 03:04:53,600
the knowledge of the
restoration.

2900
03:04:54,000 --> 03:04:55,200
Okay?
Yep.

2901
03:04:55,500 --> 03:04:57,000
Yep.
These are, these are Christians,

2902
03:04:57,000 --> 03:04:59,200
right?
They don't know, right?

2903
03:04:59,200 --> 03:05:01,100
This is happening.
The same time that Joseph Smith

2904
03:05:01,100 --> 03:05:02,900
is alive.
Remember, this is their

2905
03:05:02,900 --> 03:05:04,500
contemporaries, which shows a
Smasher.

2906
03:05:04,600 --> 03:05:05,800
Yep.
But they haven't accepted.

2907
03:05:05,800 --> 03:05:10,100
They haven't accepted or no
one's preach to them at the

2908
03:05:10,108 --> 03:05:12,900
restoration so they don't know
what what other event could

2909
03:05:12,900 --> 03:05:14,400
happen in 1844?
We don't know.

2910
03:05:14,400 --> 03:05:17,800
So they assumed that it would be
the return of Christ.

2911
03:05:18,300 --> 03:05:21,800
It's a A bull assumption.
If you don't know what's going

2912
03:05:21,800 --> 03:05:25,200
on with Joseph Smith and the
restoration, right?

2913
03:05:25,300 --> 03:05:29,700
So again, so hundreds of Bible
scholars are agreeing.

2914
03:05:29,700 --> 03:05:33,400
Something prophetic is going to
happen in 1844 but not everybody

2915
03:05:33,400 --> 03:05:36,100
was in agreement about what
would happen at that appointment

2916
03:05:36,100 --> 03:05:38,400
time but they knew it was an
appointed time.

2917
03:05:39,100 --> 03:05:41,600
And there was a professor of
Hebrew.

2918
03:05:41,600 --> 03:05:47,500
His name was George Bush and he
wrote Whoever attacks mr.

2919
03:05:47,500 --> 03:05:50,300
Miller on his point of time,
attacks him on his strongest

2920
03:05:50,300 --> 03:05:54,600
Point, his time is right, but he
is mistaken in the event to

2921
03:05:54,600 --> 03:05:56,900
occur.
So he's agreeing.

2922
03:05:56,900 --> 03:06:00,300
This is a professor of Hebrew.
He's like you can't attack him

2923
03:06:00,300 --> 03:06:02,900
on the year because that's his
strongest point.

2924
03:06:03,100 --> 03:06:06,800
It's just that he didn't agree
that the prophetic event was the

2925
03:06:06,808 --> 03:06:08,800
coming of Christ.
Okay.

2926
03:06:10,000 --> 03:06:13,500
So, but all these Bible
scholars, knew that something

2927
03:06:13,500 --> 03:06:17,100
prophetic was going to take
place in 1844, okay?

2928
03:06:17,100 --> 03:06:21,400
And unfortunately, history has
shown William Miller was

2929
03:06:21,400 --> 03:06:24,600
mistaken in the event and this
led to what is called the great

2930
03:06:24,600 --> 03:06:29,000
disappointment of 1844.
I've heard of it yet, I

2931
03:06:29,700 --> 03:06:32,300
encourage your audience to
Google it.

2932
03:06:33,400 --> 03:06:38,100
Google on YouTube, you'll find
many Talks about it.

2933
03:06:38,200 --> 03:06:41,600
Movies were made about it
because it was, it was a

2934
03:06:41,608 --> 03:06:46,700
worldwide phenomenon, right?
If you had go ahead, I was gonna

2935
03:06:46,700 --> 03:06:48,500
say, the Miller.
I'd say became the Seventh Day

2936
03:06:48,500 --> 03:06:53,700
Adventist correct, right?
Okay, so so what happened was

2937
03:06:54,900 --> 03:06:57,200
that?
Obviously, you have these

2938
03:06:58,400 --> 03:07:02,100
thousands of Christians in 1844
waiting for the coming of Jesus

2939
03:07:02,100 --> 03:07:04,000
Christ and obviously, that
didn't happen.

2940
03:07:04,300 --> 03:07:06,600
So he had first predicted that,
it would happen.

2941
03:07:06,800 --> 03:07:10,400
Spring.
And because he was following,

2942
03:07:10,600 --> 03:07:12,700
you know, God's appointed times
are always in the spring and the

2943
03:07:12,700 --> 03:07:15,700
fall right based on.
Yep.

2944
03:07:16,200 --> 03:07:19,400
The Jewish feast days, he always
knew the gods appointed time.

2945
03:07:20,300 --> 03:07:23,400
Everything is fulfilled in the
spring and the fall, which is

2946
03:07:23,400 --> 03:07:25,500
true for church history as well,
right?

2947
03:07:25,500 --> 03:07:27,400
Yep.
Joseph Smith gets the plates in

2948
03:07:27,400 --> 03:07:29,400
the fall and then other things
were fulfilled in the spring.

2949
03:07:29,400 --> 03:07:32,200
Things like that.
So he was basing it off that

2950
03:07:32,200 --> 03:07:35,500
he's okay.
So so first it was Jesus Christ

2951
03:07:35,500 --> 03:07:39,100
is going to return in Spring.
Of 1844 and then that didn't

2952
03:07:39,100 --> 03:07:42,400
happen.
And so they had to count for

2953
03:07:42,400 --> 03:07:44,200
that.
They said, okay, we must just

2954
03:07:44,200 --> 03:07:48,200
been wrong, it's going to happen
in the fall and and of course

2955
03:07:48,300 --> 03:07:51,900
that didn't happen either.
And that's what led.

2956
03:07:51,900 --> 03:07:57,600
So you had all these Christian's
right waiting and Fields, they'd

2957
03:07:57,600 --> 03:08:00,600
abandon their homes, their
flocks, their everything.

2958
03:08:00,600 --> 03:08:07,100
Their businesses, waiting in the
fields and in October of 1844

2959
03:08:08,300 --> 03:08:12,500
They wake up the next day.
Christ hadn't come, right?

2960
03:08:12,500 --> 03:08:17,400
You heard cries, mistreat.
You know, people were just

2961
03:08:17,400 --> 03:08:22,900
disappointed and, but they never
abandoned.

2962
03:08:25,000 --> 03:08:26,600
Their faith.
That something prophetic

2963
03:08:26,600 --> 03:08:28,700
happened.
They just said something

2964
03:08:28,700 --> 03:08:31,200
prophetic happened.
We just don't know what it was.

2965
03:08:32,900 --> 03:08:35,600
And that led to the creation of
The Seventh-Day Adventists.

2966
03:08:36,200 --> 03:08:43,700
And what's actually fascinating
is that that were Miller wrote

2967
03:08:44,000 --> 03:08:49,400
actually in a paper in a
newspaper on June. 27 1844 the

2968
03:08:49,400 --> 03:08:52,900
day of the martyrdom really.
It's it's a newspaper called the

2969
03:08:52,900 --> 03:08:57,700
midnight crier.
So again this was when They had

2970
03:08:57,700 --> 03:09:00,100
predicted it that the coming
would come in in the spring.

2971
03:09:00,100 --> 03:09:02,300
So now they're saying okay it
didn't have in the spring, it's

2972
03:09:02,300 --> 03:09:04,400
going to have in the fall so
they're still holding out hope

2973
03:09:05,300 --> 03:09:10,400
so to me there's no coincidence
that in June 27 1844 he writes

2974
03:09:11,400 --> 03:09:14,500
And I'll just do a quick quote.
He says true.

2975
03:09:14,600 --> 03:09:18,900
We have made one mistake on the
time and even now we know not

2976
03:09:18,900 --> 03:09:21,800
where the mistake lies.
No one has yet been able to show

2977
03:09:21,800 --> 03:09:24,500
where we're in.
What respect we have aired

2978
03:09:24,600 --> 03:09:27,400
unless God's word reveals the
secret true.

2979
03:09:27,400 --> 03:09:30,700
Our oppressors have told us and
still tell us our calculations

2980
03:09:30,700 --> 03:09:33,400
are wrong.
But as yet they have been unable

2981
03:09:33,400 --> 03:09:37,100
to tell, wherein lies the
mistake, the conclusion is that

2982
03:09:37,100 --> 03:09:40,300
the science have all been seen.
The point of time has been

2983
03:09:40,300 --> 03:09:44,300
reached in which All the vine
numbers, most Harmon, Harmon,

2984
03:09:44,300 --> 03:09:48,600
SLI terminate, but the day and
hour or wisely hit from Mortals

2985
03:09:48,800 --> 03:09:51,600
yet, we are assured.
That this time of suspense will

2986
03:09:51,600 --> 03:09:53,900
not be long.
Just long enough to Humble our

2987
03:09:53,900 --> 03:09:57,900
pride, to test our faith, love
and integrity and to purify us,

2988
03:09:57,900 --> 03:10:02,900
and make us White.
So, he's saying we still have

2989
03:10:02,900 --> 03:10:06,800
hope.
That this prophecy is going to

2990
03:10:06,800 --> 03:10:10,300
be fulfilled in 1844 and he
wrote this in the Midnight Cry.

2991
03:10:10,300 --> 03:10:16,100
Iran June, 27 1844 the day of
the martyrdom Yeah cheese.

2992
03:10:16,100 --> 03:10:24,200
Yeah, and so he, they still
believed the even though they

2993
03:10:24,200 --> 03:10:28,700
were greatly disappointed, they
still had faith in the prophecy

2994
03:10:28,700 --> 03:10:30,700
and they knew that something
prophetic have happened and,

2995
03:10:31,500 --> 03:10:34,100
and, you know, it's just
unfortunate that they didn't

2996
03:10:34,100 --> 03:10:38,500
have the restoration or they'd
know what that event was right?

2997
03:10:38,900 --> 03:10:40,800
But we do know what the event
was.

2998
03:10:41,000 --> 03:10:43,400
We do know what that prophetic
event happened.

2999
03:10:43,600 --> 03:10:50,600
In 1844 right?
Yeah, we know that.

3000
03:10:51,300 --> 03:10:55,900
Joe's, as Joseph Smith said he
stilled the Covenant with his

3001
03:10:55,900 --> 03:10:58,700
blood.
The Covenant is now in force,

3002
03:10:59,300 --> 03:11:01,900
the sanctuary can now be
cleansed right?

3003
03:11:02,000 --> 03:11:03,200
Yeah.
Absolutely.

3004
03:11:03,200 --> 03:11:05,200
He restored the kingdom of God
on Earth.

3005
03:11:05,800 --> 03:11:08,000
We know where to look for a
mission of sins.

3006
03:11:08,000 --> 03:11:10,800
We have all the ordinance, the
qisas are the keys are here.

3007
03:11:12,000 --> 03:11:14,500
That's the meaning of that of
that Bible verse.

3008
03:11:14,500 --> 03:11:19,000
It's fascinating.
I the the book that he wrote

3009
03:11:19,000 --> 03:11:21,900
John Dean, Houston is 8, he'd 44
in Prophecy.

3010
03:11:22,600 --> 03:11:25,200
If you can find a copy, you
might be able to find it on

3011
03:11:25,200 --> 03:11:29,800
Amazon.
You know, it it's this sort of

3012
03:11:29,800 --> 03:11:35,100
stuff that tells you God's Not
absent from what's happening,

3013
03:11:35,700 --> 03:11:38,200
right?
And it's like he's given

3014
03:11:39,200 --> 03:11:44,700
Witnesses everywhere.
He gave a witness, Outside of

3015
03:11:44,700 --> 03:11:49,000
Mormon them for people to look
at to find maybe lead other

3016
03:11:49,000 --> 03:11:50,800
people to Mormon.
I don't know.

3017
03:11:50,900 --> 03:11:52,600
I won't pretend to know his
designs.

3018
03:11:54,000 --> 03:11:57,900
But they're there.
And it Bears testimony to the

3019
03:11:57,900 --> 03:12:01,400
fact, he still loves his
children and is still working

3020
03:12:01,400 --> 03:12:09,800
with his children and still
points to where to find truth,

3021
03:12:10,600 --> 03:12:14,600
to find God's Witnesses.
Exactly.

3022
03:12:14,800 --> 03:12:18,600
So, so, we know that these
Christian Scholars, they fail to

3023
03:12:18,600 --> 03:12:21,000
recognize Joseph Smith as the
true Prophet.

3024
03:12:21,200 --> 03:12:25,300
But their studies, Serve to
illuminate, Joseph Smith's role

3025
03:12:25,300 --> 03:12:27,400
and prophecy, particularly his
death.

3026
03:12:28,500 --> 03:12:32,400
And so because William Miller
said something prophetic was

3027
03:12:32,400 --> 03:12:36,300
going to happen in 1844 and that
was an appointed time, right?

3028
03:12:37,200 --> 03:12:41,700
And I think the end of the vine
nod to Daniel's 1844 prophecy

3029
03:12:41,700 --> 03:12:43,700
the Lord tells Joseph Smith and
Liberty Jail.

3030
03:12:44,300 --> 03:12:47,900
He says quote by days are known
and they year shall not.

3031
03:12:47,900 --> 03:12:53,300
Be numbered less, jeez.
So he's saying, your death is

3032
03:12:53,300 --> 03:12:56,400
known, your days are numbered.
There's an appointed time for

3033
03:12:56,400 --> 03:13:04,500
you to die. yeah, so I think
it's just Pretty significant.

3034
03:13:04,700 --> 03:13:06,200
So even down to the date of his
death.

3035
03:13:06,200 --> 03:13:10,800
Joseph Smith is known as
scriptural prophecy front and I

3036
03:13:10,800 --> 03:13:13,300
really like this quote from
Joseph, I think it's from Joseph

3037
03:13:13,300 --> 03:13:17,600
Fielding Smith, he's just an
outstanding scholar, he he's

3038
03:13:17,600 --> 03:13:21,400
done remarkable work on the
Prophecies of Joseph Smith and

3039
03:13:21,400 --> 03:13:24,400
he says, from the days of Adam
father.

3040
03:13:24,400 --> 03:13:27,500
Adam to the last prophecy of
dispensations past have come a

3041
03:13:27,500 --> 03:13:30,700
mighty flood of Prophecy, which
like a strong band has

3042
03:13:30,700 --> 03:13:32,300
surrounded.
The Prophet Joseph Smith

3043
03:13:32,400 --> 03:13:34,600
dictating the Great work that he
would do.

3044
03:13:35,200 --> 03:13:37,900
Such decrees had to be fulfilled
to the very letter.

3045
03:13:37,900 --> 03:13:41,700
And so it has been more prophecy
was fulfilled in the Life Time

3046
03:13:41,700 --> 03:13:45,500
of Joseph Smith than had ever
been had banned for nearly 2000

3047
03:13:45,500 --> 03:13:49,900
years before.
That's a sweeping statement.

3048
03:13:50,400 --> 03:13:53,500
But you true statement, I mean,
we can see it, right?

3049
03:13:53,500 --> 03:13:57,700
I mean, you don't have to look
hard, it's there, right?

3050
03:13:57,700 --> 03:14:03,800
It's their it.
Just thinking about from ancient

3051
03:14:03,800 --> 03:14:08,400
Jewish tradition.
To millerites.

3052
03:14:10,100 --> 03:14:14,100
To scripture.
It all, testifies of Joe.

3053
03:14:16,000 --> 03:14:19,800
There's portions there that
testify of Joseph prophetic

3054
03:14:19,800 --> 03:14:26,800
calling his mission, and even
his sacrifice, right?

3055
03:14:28,000 --> 03:14:32,600
And just one other important,
this is just too coincidental to

3056
03:14:32,600 --> 03:14:35,400
be a coincidence.
So, like we said, so, from the

3057
03:14:35,400 --> 03:14:38,600
millerite movement was started
the Seventh-day Adventist and

3058
03:14:38,600 --> 03:14:40,600
they're one of the largest
Christian denominations in the

3059
03:14:40,608 --> 03:14:43,100
world.
And so, modern day, Christian,

3060
03:14:43,600 --> 03:14:46,400
or Seventh-Day Adventists have
actually Revisited Daniels

3061
03:14:46,400 --> 03:14:50,100
prophecy and to get because
again, they still hold true that

3062
03:14:50,100 --> 03:14:52,000
something prophetic happen in
1844.

3063
03:14:52,000 --> 03:14:54,000
They've never been in that,
right?

3064
03:14:54,000 --> 03:14:56,700
And they.
So they've now linked it to the

3065
03:14:56,700 --> 03:14:59,300
martyrdoms.
Revelation and in John.

3066
03:14:59,800 --> 03:15:02,500
So they're saying that there's a
connection between the 1844

3067
03:15:02,500 --> 03:15:07,400
prophecy in Daniel with the
martyrdoms prophecy in in

3068
03:15:07,400 --> 03:15:12,800
Revelation and the Book of John
in the New Testament, the

3069
03:15:12,800 --> 03:15:15,400
martyrdom Revelation about the
two witnesses.

3070
03:15:15,400 --> 03:15:16,800
Is that the one you're speaking
of?

3071
03:15:17,100 --> 03:15:19,000
Yep.
Yep.

3072
03:15:19,000 --> 03:15:23,800
And so I and so again, they're
missing the event because they

3073
03:15:23,800 --> 03:15:28,800
don't have the advantage of the
restoration but we do So, you

3074
03:15:28,800 --> 03:15:32,300
know, I would, I also do want to
recommend it for, for your

3075
03:15:32,300 --> 03:15:34,500
listeners.
So the Joseph Smith Foundation.

3076
03:15:34,500 --> 03:15:36,900
Actually did do a documentary
called The Mystery of the two

3077
03:15:36,900 --> 03:15:41,000
prophets.
Were they also go in and make

3078
03:15:41,000 --> 03:15:44,700
the parallel between the death
of Joseph and Hyrum with

3079
03:15:44,900 --> 03:15:47,600
Prophecies of the two prophets
in Revelation 11?

3080
03:15:47,600 --> 03:15:52,800
It's phenomenal.
Like it just amazing backed up

3081
03:15:52,800 --> 03:15:56,900
by not only scripture but
prophetic quotes And I just, I

3082
03:15:56,900 --> 03:16:04,300
would recommend that to again.
To understand unless you

3083
03:16:04,300 --> 03:16:07,600
understand the prophecy,
surrounding the death of the

3084
03:16:07,608 --> 03:16:10,500
Prophet Joseph Smith, and his
brother Hyrum, we can never

3085
03:16:10,500 --> 03:16:14,100
understand the significance of
the martyrdom and why it matters

3086
03:16:14,100 --> 03:16:17,000
so much.
Absolutely.

3087
03:16:20,100 --> 03:16:25,100
I'm going to well first, let me
ask you, this is there any other

3088
03:16:25,100 --> 03:16:31,100
points you want to bring up
there, I could talk about this

3089
03:16:31,100 --> 03:16:33,400
forever but that that those were
my main points.

3090
03:16:33,600 --> 03:16:39,000
Okay, I want to wrap up here
with bear in my testimony and

3091
03:16:39,000 --> 03:16:41,100
then I'm going to turn.
Turn it over to you to have the

3092
03:16:41,100 --> 03:16:47,800
final word here Kimberly We look
at the martyrdom and we look at

3093
03:16:47,808 --> 03:16:51,100
the life of Joseph Smith and his
Mormons, we rightfully, or

3094
03:16:51,100 --> 03:16:54,100
thankful.
We are rightfully.

3095
03:16:58,500 --> 03:17:06,400
Ingratitude and hold Joseph
Smith in a steam, but as a

3096
03:17:06,400 --> 03:17:12,600
convert to Mormonism.
There have been times when I

3097
03:17:12,608 --> 03:17:16,200
have either been studying the
scriptures or reading about the

3098
03:17:16,200 --> 03:17:24,800
kind of Life of Joseph Smith. or
in prayer, where I am told that

3099
03:17:24,800 --> 03:17:29,400
Joseph's role not only in the
dispensation, but within the

3100
03:17:29,400 --> 03:17:34,600
effort for salvation exaltation
of the Human family is so

3101
03:17:34,600 --> 03:17:38,700
pivotal.
That we sometimes don't do it

3102
03:17:38,700 --> 03:17:43,900
justice.
That we fail to to to recognize

3103
03:17:43,900 --> 03:17:49,100
just how Central his prophetic
role and even his sacrifice was

3104
03:17:50,200 --> 03:17:56,000
and I firmly believe that once
we can put Joseph in his proper

3105
03:17:56,000 --> 03:18:00,700
role it can't help but lead us
back to our Savior and to our

3106
03:18:00,700 --> 03:18:05,200
Heavenly Father and so I just
want to Bear testimony that I

3107
03:18:05,200 --> 03:18:09,100
know he was a prophet.
He was the prophet amongst

3108
03:18:09,100 --> 03:18:13,800
profits.
He was everything you could hope

3109
03:18:13,800 --> 03:18:19,100
a prophet would be and in due
time I firmly believe.

3110
03:18:20,500 --> 03:18:25,000
We'll see just how important he
was and I would admonish anybody

3111
03:18:25,400 --> 03:18:27,400
go do your own research on
Joseph Smith.

3112
03:18:27,400 --> 03:18:30,700
Don't take my word for it.
You go do your own research and

3113
03:18:30,700 --> 03:18:35,400
come up with your idea of who
the man was because even Joseph

3114
03:18:35,400 --> 03:18:40,700
alludes to the fact as you as
you read that quote from him.

3115
03:18:42,800 --> 03:18:46,800
I think very few understand who
he really was, but I think that

3116
03:18:46,800 --> 03:18:51,100
can can still be had even today.
I just want everyone to know

3117
03:18:51,100 --> 03:18:54,400
that I know Joseph was a true
prophet and is this dispensation

3118
03:18:54,400 --> 03:18:55,500
head.
And I want to say that in the

3119
03:18:55,508 --> 03:18:56,900
name of Jesus Christ.
Amen.

3120
03:18:58,600 --> 03:19:02,200
Amen.
And just to add a second,

3121
03:19:02,200 --> 03:19:05,600
witness to what you said.
I just want to quote from dr.

3122
03:19:05,600 --> 03:19:08,900
And comment section 21.
This was a revelation given to

3123
03:19:08,900 --> 03:19:10,800
Joseph Smith on the day.
The church was organized and

3124
03:19:10,800 --> 03:19:17,000
Jesus Christ said he said
wherefore Meaning the church

3125
03:19:17,200 --> 03:19:21,700
that shall give heed unto all
his words, speaking of Joseph

3126
03:19:22,100 --> 03:19:25,600
and Commandments, which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth

3127
03:19:25,600 --> 03:19:30,200
them walking in all Holiness.
Before me for his word, you

3128
03:19:30,200 --> 03:19:33,800
shall receive as if from my own
mouth and all patience and

3129
03:19:33,800 --> 03:19:37,100
faith.
And then Jesus Christ says, for

3130
03:19:37,100 --> 03:19:40,400
by doing these things, the Gates
of Hell shall not Prevail

3131
03:19:40,400 --> 03:19:42,800
against you.
Ye in the Lord, God will

3132
03:19:42,800 --> 03:19:46,200
disperse the power of Darkness
from For you and cause the

3133
03:19:46,200 --> 03:19:48,900
Heavens to shake for your good
and his name's Lori.

3134
03:19:50,400 --> 03:19:53,000
And so I just that's the
promise, right?

3135
03:19:53,500 --> 03:19:55,800
You.
The Gates of Hell will not

3136
03:19:55,800 --> 03:19:59,300
Prevail against you, if you give
heed to the words of the prophet

3137
03:19:59,300 --> 03:20:03,900
of this dispensation the servant
of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ

3138
03:20:03,900 --> 03:20:06,900
said this generation will have
my word through you.

3139
03:20:07,600 --> 03:20:11,700
So we want to come to know Jesus
Christ, we study the life and

3140
03:20:11,700 --> 03:20:14,500
the teachings of the Prophet
Joseph Smith, and we give heed

3141
03:20:14,500 --> 03:20:16,500
to his word.
And keep his Commandments.

3142
03:20:17,100 --> 03:20:19,400
And I in my life that has been
true.

3143
03:20:19,500 --> 03:20:23,000
I feel like I have gained my
test, my own testimony and

3144
03:20:23,000 --> 03:20:27,500
witness of Jesus Christ through
Joseph Smith, and I testified

3145
03:20:27,500 --> 03:20:33,200
that Joseph Smith life does
testify of Jesus Christ, and

3146
03:20:33,200 --> 03:20:37,300
every way including his death,
Amen.

3147
03:20:38,200 --> 03:20:41,100
Beautiful.
Well Kimberly.

3148
03:20:41,200 --> 03:20:43,300
We've done three and a half
hours.

3149
03:20:44,600 --> 03:20:48,000
That was awesome in all
seriousness.

3150
03:20:48,100 --> 03:20:51,700
I would love to have you back on
when Sam publishes this paper.

3151
03:20:51,700 --> 03:20:53,100
Would you be willing to come
back on?

3152
03:20:53,600 --> 03:20:54,600
Absolutely.
Yeah.

3153
03:20:55,100 --> 03:20:59,100
All right, perfect.
Alright, well that's it for this

3154
03:20:59,100 --> 03:21:00,600
episode.
Bye everybody.