Episode #109: The Making of Ervil LaBaron W/DeWayne Hafen author of Gods Executioner The Tragedy Of Ervil LeBaron

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This week Hulu dropped a new
documentary about Ervil Lebaron.

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I think overall the documentary
was pretty well done.

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However, it was produced in a
way that would appeal to a very

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large audience and had to be
told in a way that would make

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sense to a largely non Mormon
audience.

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I had other questions about this
story however, mainly what was

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happening inside Joel Lebaron's
Church of the First Born that

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set the table for Ervil's
insanity.

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Fortunately for me, Dwayne Hafon
has just published a book on

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this subject.
Dwayne was a member of that

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church and got to see first hand
how things went off the rails.

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In this episode, Dwayne and I
talk about the Lebaron family

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called Joel established the
Church of the First Born down in

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Mexico, what Ervil's role in
that church was, and the

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surrounding tensions that
ultimately led to Ervil ordering

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the deaths of many people.
My hope is, is that by examining

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all of these topics, we as
Mormons can take away some

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lessons and be on guard.
So nothing like this ever

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happens again inside Mormonism.
That's next on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse.
To become and raise men and

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women of virtue and character is
a herculean task.

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To help with this I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com, go to the

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Today I can bear personal

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testimony from personal
experience that this is an

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invaluable tool to help you
raise men and women of virtue

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and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Hey, Duane.

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How are you?
I'm good.

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How are you?
Well, I'm not at home.

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I'm in my daughter in But.
I'll bet your weather, I'll bet

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you your weather's a lot better
than my weather right now.

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But anyway, it's good to talk to
you again.

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You too.
You too, you.

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I'll bet you your weather up
there is a lot better than mine

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is.
Maybe the sun?

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The sunny and beautiful and I'm
up here in the cold and the and

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the and the inversion so.
Hey, I went swimming yesterday.

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OK, that's enough.
We don't need to go there and I.

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Thought the water would be cold
and disappointed, it was a

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little too.
Warm thanks Dwayne, I appreciate

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that.
Way to make me feel worse about

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my situation here, so.
All right.

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And there's chill.
There's children here.

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I hope they don't cause a
problem.

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No, no, it'll be fine.
It'll be just fine, Dwayne.

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So OK, when and as we all know
there's a Hulu special coming

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out about Ervil Lebaron and
about what happened there as far

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as his target assassinations and
whatnot.

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I want to 1st get the back story
on who Ervil was.

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I I want to start with what his
upbringing was like, how he he

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came of age, and then move into
kind of what his, his, his

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religious life was like.
Does that make sense?

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Yeah, I think so.
Perfect.

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So what kind of home did Ervil
grow up in?

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Was it a good home?
Was it troubled?

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It was probably typical of the
time he was raised Mormon, LDS,

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Mormon.
He actually went on a mission

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for the LDS Church when he was
young.

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Yeah, his two older brothers
both went on missions for the

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eldest church.
But Ervil was born and mostly

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raised in Mexico and Chihuahua,
Mexico in a place called Colonia

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Dublan, which is a Mormon colony
and of course it living in the

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Mormon colony.
He went to the Wardens Academy,

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which was a Mormon run school.
Right.

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Wow.
Go ahead.

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No, no.
I was just saying saying wow.

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One of the interesting things
that's worth knowing is he

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wasn't supposed to be able to go
on a mission at his age.

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He was under age and his brother
went, and he was so upset that

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his brother was going without
him that they managed to get him

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a special appointment with the
future president of the Church,

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the chief apostle at the time at
the head of the apostles, and

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got special permission.
Really.

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So they had.
They had contact with the

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leaders of the church.
So, so they weren't just kind of

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your run-of-the-mill membership,
They were able to have have

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interactions with the higher ups
of the LDS Church?

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That's what I'm trying to tell
you.

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Wow.
Benjin F Johnson was the

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grandparents, and he was a
special person in the church,

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and the father was also a very
special person in the church.

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So you know, it wasn't such a
strange thing that they would

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have contact with the higher ups
in the church, but they did.

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Wow, so was it was was Ervil's
dad practicing the principal at

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this time or anything like that?
Well, Ervil's dad decided he

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wanted to leave plural marriage
a number of years before, and he

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had managed to get a copy of the
1858 Taylor revelation, which

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said, hey, use your own brain,
use your own judgement, and do

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what you want to do about plural
marriage.

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But it's still the law.
It's still what you're supposed

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to do.
And so he did.

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He got himself a wife, got
himself married to her, and

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immediately moved to Mexico
because of the fear of being

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arrested.
Wow.

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So was it.
Again, being a noted name in the

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church, it wasn't a good thing
to be a polygamist.

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Sure, Sure was.
So was was is Alma Dyer Ervil's

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dad?
Or is that Joel?

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I I'm sorry.
Yes.

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Alma deyer lebaron, OK?
So was Alma Deyer?

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Yeah.
Was he practicing plural

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marriage while his boys were on
a mission?

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Yes, yes, they both.
Both he and Dad's two wives had

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been excommunicated long before
that.

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Well, long being like about 1010
years, OK, but or maybe more.

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And the one wife had deserted
the family.

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It was down to just the mother
and the whose name was Maude.

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It was Maude and Taylor and the
children.

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OK, all right.
So he wasn't living plural

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marriage, though during the time
that his son was on a mission.

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He the father?
Well, he wanted to, OK?

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Gotcha.
Gotcha.

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OK, So what was it like growing
up in Alma Dyer, Lebaron's home?

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What was what was Alma like as a
father?

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His father, his father was a
very strict disciplinarian, I

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mean fanatically so.
And a lot of people in that time

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were hard, hard.
A hard pioneer life called for

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some pretty tough parents.
But the father was extremely,

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very, very, very disciplined,
very strong disciplinarian.

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My mother, when she was 8 years
old, happened to live next door

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to them in Dublin, Mexico for a
while and she had.

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She said that she would never
die, or very well, the meanest

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son of a bitch she ever met in
their life, according to her.

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Holy cow, that's a that's a
pretty that's a pretty harsh

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indictment.
Do do you get the feeling that

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that Dyer Lebaron was was
abusive at all or was he just

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strict?
I don't know, I can't say.

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But I can say that the other
thing that you have to not

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forget or miss here is his
mother.

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And I loved his mother, by the
way.

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She was a terribly nice woman to
me.

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But his mother had aspirations
or desires for her children.

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You are going to be the best.
You're going to excel.

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You're going to be somebody.
All of the girls competed in

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piano and one they would
consistently have to win and be

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the best piano player in the
whole area.

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The boys, I mean the oldest son
was named Benjamin Lebaron and

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Ben Lebaron was very athletic,
very competitive.

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He ended up being the school,
the high school president, his

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last year of high school in the
what is Academy.

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Very competitive, these people.
But Mama pushed them.

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I can't leave that part out.
Mama expected, very, very

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expected them to sell all of
them.

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You are expected to do well.
You're expected to be better

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than those around you.
Was this, do you think that this

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was a a healthy push because
look, I I'm a big believer in

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sometimes our kids don't don't
meet expectations because we as

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parents don't set them.
Was this in, in your opinion,

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was was his was Ervil's mother,
was it a healthy push or was

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this kind of maybe over the top?
Oh, she was a terribly loving

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person.
She just you can you can push

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without pushing, right?
Right.

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So this this.
Was maybe a little bit over I.

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I love you.
I expect you to be the best.

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OK.
All right.

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So it sounds.
Like disappoint me.

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Sure, sure.
So it sounds like Ervil was

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raised in almost kind of a
pressure cooker.

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For for lack of a better word,
you had a a very strict

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disciplinarian, disciplinarian
of a father who by your your own

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mother's account said he was the
meanest SOB she'd ever met.

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And then you have a mother who
although is very loving, kind of

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drives her children, so to
speak, really pushes them to A

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to excel.
So we can kind of get this feel

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for, based off of what you said
there, that that maybe he's

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raised in a pressure cooker kind
of a situation.

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Would that be a fair assessment?
He was.

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She just plain expected them to
excel among among some of us, we

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say the Lebarons have an
attitude that they were born to

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rule, and that's probably just
because of the way they were

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raised.
They expected to be #1.

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I got you.
I got you.

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OK, so where does Ervil end up
serving his mission at?

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In the South part of Mexico, in
the in the Deep South of Mexico,

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Puebla in those areas, Puebla
and the poor parts of the state

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of Mexico, Ozumba places where
they had a lot of the Mayan

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people actual.
OK, what?

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What was it?
A successful mission in terms of

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baptisms.
Yeah, it was.

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They were good missionaries.
He served with his brother.

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He served with his brother Joel.
He joined his brother.

226
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:40,960
And you got two blonde, big,
tall, blonde American boys who

227
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:47,080
speak fluent Spanish.
So they were impressive and they

228
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,960
had learned how to preach.
And they had, following their

229
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:56,720
brother, Alma the older, the
Alma Junior, Alma Dale Lebaron

230
00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,840
Junior had just finished a
mission in the same area.

231
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,560
So these boys kind of, oh heck,
there's another one.

232
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,360
And they knew how to preach.
They knew how to talk.

233
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,760
They had been trained to be in
front of people.

234
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,040
That's why I'm talking about the
influence of the mother.

235
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:22,040
You can stand up, you can talk,
you can preach, you can do

236
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,400
anything.
Gotcha.

237
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:29,280
Gotcha.
So at this time, Herbal still,

238
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,080
even though he's on an LDS
mission, he's probably still,

239
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,040
for the most part, understanding
of of what we classify as as

240
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,720
Mormon fundamentalist
principles, right?

241
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,080
His dad was a polygamist.
When they went on their Mormon

242
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,720
mission, I think they believed
in the Mormon Church.

243
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,680
Even Alma, when he went, wasn't
too happy with the fact that his

244
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,400
father was a polygamist.
But after he had been there and

245
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,440
on his mission and he managed to
read a bit, the older brother

246
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,319
Almond said, hey, you know what,
Maybe dad's right.

247
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,240
He got to see some situation, he
says.

248
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,960
You know, my father's right.
And then he came home.

249
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,960
And in the meantime, Joel and
Ervil are on the same in the

250
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,480
same missionary he was.
And they're doing a good job.

251
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,079
They're sending home good
reports of how good they're

252
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:27,520
doing in the nation.
I'm sure they believed in what

253
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:33,480
they were doing, but Alma
decided to start to preach for a

254
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,200
marriage and a couple other
things and he got in trouble.

255
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,840
So he had a disciplinary council
called.

256
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,080
So what he do?
He got hold of his brothers,

257
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,560
sent a sent a telegram or
however he's they communicated.

258
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,680
This is about 1945 or 6 or
somewhere around there.

259
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,800
No, no earlier than that.
The war was ordered 45 anyway,

260
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,040
about 1943 and 44.
I don't know.

261
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:05,440
And somehow he got word to them.
Hey, I need you to come home and

262
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,120
help me.
So they immediately abandoned

263
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,600
their mission.
They didn't bother to say

264
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,120
goodbye or we got an emergency
or nothing else.

265
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:18,640
They just went home and all
three of them ended up getting

266
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,040
excommunicated.
Whole they got excommunicated

267
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:24,600
because they left their mission
early.

268
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,920
Because they abandoned their
mission without permission and

269
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,000
went to defend their brothers.
OK.

270
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:33,240
All right.
I got you.

271
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,840
I got you.
So they get home from their

272
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,160
mission.
How long was it was was Ervil

273
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,680
out on his mission?
Exactly.

274
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,080
I'm sorry, try that again.
How long was Ervil out on his

275
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,760
mission?
Oh, they were probably there a

276
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,720
couple of years, I'm not sure.
This was probably back in the

277
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,760
time of like 3 year missions,
right?

278
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,480
Yeah.
Or maybe they were a year.

279
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,080
OK, I'm not sure of the time.
OK.

280
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,440
But they were definitely doing a
good job up until that.

281
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,120
Point.
All right.

282
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:08,320
So when they get back home, what
happens next?

283
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,680
They get excommunicated.
Where does their faith journey

284
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,560
take them from this point?
OK.

285
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,600
The interesting thing is we're
in World War 2 still.

286
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,720
It's getting close to the end,
but there's still World War 2.

287
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,240
And when they were on a mission,
they apparently had some sort of

288
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:34,160
an exception, a draft exemption.
But immediately after they came

289
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:41,080
home that excommunicated Alma
and Joel get a draft call.

290
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:48,280
You got a report for service and
they both said no.

291
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,040
Is this through the Is this
through the Mexican government

292
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,040
or the American government?
No, they were.

293
00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,720
There's a difference here.
Alma and Joel were born in the

294
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,200
United States.
Ervil was born in Mexico.

295
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,240
OK.
All right, so.

296
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:14,080
So Ervil Herbal was a Mexican
citizen and an American citizen,

297
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:20,600
OK, but Joel and Alma were only
American citizens.

298
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:22,440
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

299
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,920
OK, that makes.
Sense they had no rights in

300
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,440
Mexico.
I gotcha.

301
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,800
And that's an important thing.
OK.

302
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,520
All right.
So they they get back, they they

303
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,840
all say no, they're not going on
there into the service either.

304
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,520
How?
How did they manage to get that

305
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,360
without serving time 'cause this
is a time when they?

306
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,360
Were both arrested and their
time.

307
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,720
OK, they they claim conscience
and objectors.

308
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:56,840
They use the Doctrine Covenants
where it says that you don't go

309
00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:02,160
to war unless you've done
certain things and claim to be

310
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,680
conscientious objectors.
They both went to jail for a

311
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,400
period of time.
Fortunately, the work was over

312
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:10,840
pretty soon and they went home
OK all.

313
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,800
Right.
In the meantime, in the

314
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:22,040
meantime, the older brother Ben,
who had had some serious

315
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:28,920
problems, came home.
He took his family and went to

316
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,600
Mexico and some followers he had
decided he was the one minding

317
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,440
and straw and he had some
followers.

318
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:43,120
He was he was still he he was
already certified crazy.

319
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:52,320
OK, and that's another story,
but excuse me, he he had gone to

320
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:58,240
Mexico, he had some followers,
and Ervil became one of his

321
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,200
followers.
OK.

322
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,680
And then when Alma came home, he
became one of his followers and

323
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,520
they were both working with
their brother Ben.

324
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:19,640
Joel came home, begged for
forgiveness and got re baptized

325
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:26,600
into the church, the LDS church,
and went to do his own thing.

326
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,960
He was making a living by
purchasing corn and other

327
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,960
commodities in the mountains and
selling it to the people around

328
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:38,640
in Chihuahua that were raised in
animals and stuff.

329
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,360
So they kind of went up their
own their separate ways.

330
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,640
Gotcha.
But Ervil and Alma became a

331
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,000
couple of apostles for their
brother Ben, who had visions of

332
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,000
being the one mighty and strong
that was going to set the church

333
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,680
in order.
Interesting.

334
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:06,480
And some of the things that Ben
did were really, really bizarre.

335
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,760
I don't know how else to call it
bizarre.

336
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,840
Strange.
Bizarre How?

337
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:18,640
What do you mean by by bizarre?
Well, he had apostles.

338
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,360
Alma Junior was his right
apostle.

339
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,840
Ervil was his left apostle.
And they had to always sit on

340
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,360
that side of him at the dinner
table or wherever.

341
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,320
And then he had a cousin named
Owen Lebaron, who was his number

342
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,960
2 apostle.
And you know, he was #1, This

343
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,320
guy was #2, and he could sit
anywhere he wanted.

344
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:52,360
Even on Ben's lap, that is his
Ben was very, very, very

345
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,800
domineering.
He had to have his meals just a

346
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,880
certain way.
He had to have his clothes just

347
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,920
a certain way.
And his apostles were expected

348
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:09,200
to wait on him and wouldn't eat
until he was true.

349
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,960
You know, it was he was really
abusive.

350
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,640
And the women that were around
were abused even more.

351
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,960
Oh.
Man.

352
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:23,320
OK, so answer me this, we know
that Ben has some medical, I

353
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,120
mean some some mental issues,
right?

354
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:29,800
That's that's beyond debate.
He, if I'm not mistaken, he was

355
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,360
the one that was like out in
State Street, in the middle of

356
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:34,960
State Street in Salt Lake doing
push ups, right.

357
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,800
Yeah, yeah, he's the one that
Dan Lebaron went on the corner

358
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,920
there and stopped traffic so he
could prove that he was the one

359
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,440
minding strong by doing I don't
know how many push ups there in

360
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,160
the intersection.
And when they come to take him

361
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,560
away, he challenged the
policeman to Hey, let's see if

362
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,640
you can do it.
Gotcha.

363
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:55,120
Gotcha.
He.

364
00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,400
Was pretty wild.
So why would Look if if he's

365
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:09,640
certifiably crazy, why does
Ervil and and his brother?

366
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,720
When they joined, they didn't
know he was crazy, OK?

367
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,960
He was their older brother.
They loved their older brother.

368
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,320
Their older brother had always
been their idol when they were

369
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,400
growing up.
Their father.

370
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,160
If he was gone, then her older
brother was a de facto

371
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:28,880
disciplinarian.
Her father.

372
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,040
What do we want to call it?
Got you.

373
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,560
Was was this did?
Did mental illness run in the

374
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,360
family or is this kind of a A1
off thing?

375
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,800
I'm sorry, what was that?
Was was this mental illness?

376
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,520
Did this run in the family or
was this kind of a one off

377
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,040
incident?
That is the worst piece of

378
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,880
propaganda that anybody ever put
out.

379
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,400
I've had some crazy people in my
family.

380
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,400
I bet you have two.
Now if I put, if I decided I was

381
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,800
the one mighty and stronger, the
one man on the earth at the

382
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,840
time, you might just go find
some of those people say, hey,

383
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,840
crazy runs in the family.
Gotcha.

384
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,440
Gotcha.
OK, so this seems to be

385
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,840
isolated.
But let me tell you about Ben.

386
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,080
Let's back up and talk about Ben
for a minute.

387
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:23,000
Ben had been the class
president.

388
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,760
He had good grades, and we're
talking about during the

389
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,880
Depression.
He went out to the United

390
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,680
States.
He gets himself into college.

391
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:38,000
She's going to college.
He has his own car now.

392
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,480
This is where cars are just
being slightly available.

393
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,600
He owns his own car.
Yeah, he's making his own

394
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,760
living.
He's selling full of brush and

395
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,640
he's doing and he's in college
and he's getting ready to get

396
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,240
married.
His life is a really going good.

397
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,320
He had lots of expectations, He
was his mother and his father's

398
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,840
pride and joy.
They were so proud of him.

399
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,200
But his mother apparently had a
fuss with the father one time

400
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,440
and sent a message to Ben that
his father, his father, was

401
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,760
abusing her.
Think that's what Ben did.

402
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:25,040
He dropped everything, ran home
to confront his father, and

403
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,200
after he gets there and raises
heck with his father, he comes

404
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,640
back and turns around and he
goes in the house and his Mama

405
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,240
sitting on daddy's lap and
they're very, very loving.

406
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,680
And he says, what is going on?
Well, don't you know that I

407
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,920
adore your father?
We we love each other.

408
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,880
OK?
So he returns to the States to

409
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:56,640
go to school, but he's got to
try to pick up his job and his

410
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,560
girlfriend he had he was engaged
to be married, but she just, you

411
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,600
know, the bird that when the cat
cats away them to the mice play

412
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,720
or whatever, she she found
somebody else and got herself

413
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,720
married.
So here's Ben.

414
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,960
He's disappointed with his
father and his mother.

415
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,000
He feels like they made a fool
of him.

416
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:25,440
His girlfriend has found
somebody else, and all of his

417
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,920
expectations, all of his
desires, all the things that he

418
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:35,240
had hoped that would happen,
they weren't going to happen and

419
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,480
it broke him.
Now if they have a propensity

420
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,960
for something, it's a propensity
to have high expectations which

421
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,600
which whether or not realized,
they can't handle it.

422
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,880
That's one of the dangers of
having unattainable goals and

423
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,640
expectations.
You might, you have to be

424
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,920
willing to say, hey, I guess I
can't do that right And

425
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,520
apparently that's a difficult
that was a difficulty gotcha,

426
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:17,520
gotcha.
And but still Ben had had push

427
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,080
with Ervil and with with his
other brothers.

428
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,400
He he was still the oldest son.
He was still the one that they

429
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,880
all looked up to.
Are you the oldest in your

430
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,560
family?
I am do.

431
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,640
You have younger brothers and
sisters that look up to you.

432
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,880
Not so much anymore.
We my, my family is kind of a

433
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,280
mess, so.
Well, yeah, but you understand

434
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:46,960
what I'm saying.
Right, I do.

435
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:54,400
I'm an old son, OK?
And until I got out of the

436
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,960
church, I had a lot of influence
in my family.

437
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,800
Right.
When I was excommunicated back

438
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:08,040
in 1964, three, whatever it was,
I lost a lot of that influence.

439
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,120
Gotcha, gotcha.
In my own family.

440
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,360
OK, so Ben comes home, well,
goes back to the States, starts

441
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,240
this church, and then decides to
go back to Mexico.

442
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,200
Is that correct?
Yes.

443
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,360
So he brings a couple of his
followers and begins to set up a

444
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:32,440
deal in the in Chihuahua.
The father hadn't.

445
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,880
They had a place, some place in
the mountains, I don't know

446
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,480
where, and they decide they
would go there and start to live

447
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:41,680
whatever it was they were going
to live.

448
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:48,080
Set up, set the church in order.
Servo is immediately put to work

449
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:56,160
translating and publishing
information for Ben and his

450
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,720
second in command, Owen Lebaron.
And if they're publishing pretty

451
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,040
good stuff because they're
steaming it all for the

452
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,960
fundamentalist movement, In
other words, they're they're

453
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,920
reading stuff that was written
by Muster and broadband and

454
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,000
other people.
Oh, that sounds good.

455
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,360
We'll just reword it a little
bit.

456
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,320
And now we're going to going to
send this out to the world.

457
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,240
So Earl was doing that in
Spanish.

458
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,960
He was translating and
publishing, and one of the

459
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,640
followers, A fellow by name of
Joseph Morrison, had managed to

460
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,640
get a printing press, which
became Earl's toy.

461
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:44,400
So he was translating and
publishing, publishing, spending

462
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,200
every dime he could get on doing
the work of the Lord.

463
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,160
He was happy that he was doing
what he felt he should be doing,

464
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,920
and his mother was happy with
him.

465
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,000
His father was happy with him.
All right.

466
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,760
So so this is a time where where
Herbal's invested in this new

467
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,640
fundamentalist movement with
with his brother Ben and his his

468
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,440
his other brother, and things
seem to be going well, right?

469
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,440
He's like you said, he's
spending a lot of money on

470
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,360
printing this stuff.
My question is, is on that stuff

471
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,080
that you said they were taken
from Musser and whatnot and then

472
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,360
just changing it, were they
crediting Musser and those other

473
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,760
guys or were they saying it was
their own work?

474
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,560
I'd be kidding.
Of course not.

475
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,000
OK.
All right.

476
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,520
And this was straight from God,
OK?

477
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,200
OK.
All right.

478
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,480
So they were.
But they were leaning heavily on

479
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,440
fundamentalist literature.
OK.

480
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:54,280
All right.
But no, they the idea that you

481
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,520
do attribution, that you show
where you get all this stuff

482
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,760
that wasn't very famous in the
40s because I knew it was it

483
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,680
wasn't something that people
did.

484
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,520
You could you could quote the
everything and oh, you're so

485
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,960
smart.
What do you mean you got it for

486
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,840
Shakespeare.
I thought you made it up, you

487
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:17,960
know?
OK, all right.

488
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,040
It just wasn't wasn't done.
Gotcha.

489
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:23,640
Gotcha.
Well, it looked like it was

490
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,960
theirs.
They were publishing it as it

491
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,640
was theirs.
Plus Ben was throwing in his own

492
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,480
little 2 bits worth.
That's say it's a large you do

493
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:38,560
this or you do that.
What was the set up there in in

494
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,240
Ben's movement or Yeah, I can
hear you.

495
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,360
Can you hear me?
Yes.

496
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,960
What?
What was the set up there in

497
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,880
Ben's church like?
Did did everything flow through

498
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:56,360
Ben and including marriages,
including, you know, everything?

499
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,240
Nobody was getting married
particularly.

500
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:04,760
OK then had full control of
everything, especially any woman

501
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,800
that was associated with them.
And some of the women says OK.

502
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,880
I said if he said goodbye and
they laughed.

503
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,800
Joseph Morrison's wife and took
her kids, her girls and left and

504
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,520
left the son behind.
A guy by the name of Nephi

505
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:28,320
Morrison got to stay, but she
and the girls got the heck out

506
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,199
of there in a hurry.
Ben's wife had some serious

507
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,719
problems and eventually got
away.

508
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,040
Owen, Laban's wife, had some
serious problems and eventually

509
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,639
got away.
It was very, very abusive.

510
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,199
OK.
All right.

511
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,880
So as as.
Of course, Ervil and Alma both

512
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,280
learned from that experience.
OK.

513
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,800
All right, Alma Baron Junior
became a very abusive person as

514
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,920
well.
All right, that's too bad.

515
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,640
What?
What was the father's role in

516
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,920
this church?
Alma Senior.

517
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,040
Senior.
Yeah.

518
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,440
He was just watching.
He was, he wasn't excited about

519
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:25,240
it.
He was in colonial, Colonial

520
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:29,200
Juarez doing his thing.
They had, look, colonial Baron

521
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:34,560
didn't exist quite yet.
OK, so all right, we're just

522
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,000
starting.
But he was busy doing what he

523
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,680
needed to do.
He was trying to make a living

524
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,360
again.
You've got a just coming out of

525
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:51,760
the out of the depression type
situation and people had to make

526
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,000
a living any way they could And
he he had to work.

527
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,160
He had to work at getting to
make a living.

528
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,000
He did a lot of things.
He wasn't always home.

529
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:06,600
He had he he had Ben and his
group in a different location

530
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,400
like they had a couple of
ranches.

531
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,320
He was in some property in the
mountains and colonial Baron was

532
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,240
just starting to come together.
Eventually Ben moved to Colonial

533
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:24,400
Baron, but for a while he wasn't
there OK.

534
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,480
OK, so so Alma senior's not
involved in this church

535
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,600
whatsoever or anything.
No, no.

536
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,480
No, Not really, No.
OK, so after.

537
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,000
OK, so this goes along for a
while.

538
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,360
What ends up happening to Ben?
Well, Ben, of course.

539
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:49,080
Eventually he gets committed to
the insane asylum his follower

540
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,640
Owen gets committed.
Oren was a Canadian citizen and

541
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,640
he was basically expelled from
Mexico.

542
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,360
He couldn't go back.
Oh.

543
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:10,280
OK, but Ben did on occasion.
But he spent a long time in

544
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,120
Provo at at at the Utah whatever
they call it.

545
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:22,800
Insane asylum I guess in Provo
UT OK and he eventually gets got

546
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,360
out.
I met Ben years later and I

547
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,840
actually liked Ben.
He was a likable person.

548
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,000
He wasn't being abusive at that
time.

549
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,080
He didn't have a wife.
He was just him and he would

550
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,920
talk and a lot of things he said
made sense.

551
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,400
I like Ben, OK?
Don't misunderstand me about

552
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,800
Ben.
But by then he wasn't out

553
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,040
question that he was the one,
mighty and strong, although I

554
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,840
think he still thought he was,
but he was considerably came

555
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,360
down by the time I met him.
Gotcha.

556
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,520
Gotcha.
Man's the one that told me.

557
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,520
Dwayne, you know what's the best
thing about being crazy?

558
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,200
No, I don't know, man.
What's wrong?

559
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,880
What's the best thing you can
say?

560
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,880
Anything you want to.
You can even tell the truth.

561
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,040
Yeah.
So.

562
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,240
And and you know what?
There's a lot of wisdom in that.

563
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,400
Sure, sure.
So what ends up happening to

564
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,160
this church that Ben starts when
he gets committed?

565
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:35,720
It's done.
But about that time they get

566
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:42,920
involved with the Allreds.
The Allreds were had just

567
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,840
gotten, someone had just gotten
out of jail and they were

568
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,480
thinking that they might have to
move to Mexico or somewhere

569
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,080
because they might go back to
jail.

570
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,600
So some of the Allreds went to
Mexico, actually build a couple

571
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:03,200
of houses and became very
associated with the Le Barons,

572
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:15,480
and so Alma and and Ervil both
became part of the already

573
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,240
faction.
Ervil and.

574
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:26,560
Owen and so Joe.
So Ervil's loyalty moved from

575
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:33,040
doing stuff for band to doing
stuff for Joseph White Musser

576
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:37,800
and Reuben Allred and Margarito
Batista.

577
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,960
OK.
Yeah, Margarita Batista, we

578
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,920
haven't talked about.
No.

579
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:49,760
Margarita Batista was the fellow
that started a united order poor

580
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:57,840
marriage thing in a Texaco.
OK, what was he like?

581
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:08,360
And Margarito had a very, very
rigid control over those people.

582
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,480
And of course, Ervil and Alma
and Joel had all met Margarito

583
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,360
while they were on missions down
there.

584
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:21,080
Interesting.
And I don't know whether they

585
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,440
with Margarito before they with
the outrage or was it all

586
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,920
happened at once.
I kind of suspect they were

587
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:28,840
with.
Margarito first.

588
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:32,280
OK.
So in your estimation they went

589
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:37,000
with with Batista and then ended
up kind of hooking up with the

590
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,920
all Reds and musser and and
that.

591
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:45,200
Sort of right and started buying
into the the woolly story.

592
00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:52,440
OK.
You know, right, but not really.

593
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:59,880
Margarita Bautista became a
member of of Joseph Musser's

594
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:06,560
council, but he never bought
into the woolly story.

595
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,480
He believed that because he was
a Lamanite, he had a birthright

596
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,160
reason to hold the priesthood
and he'd been ordained an elder

597
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:18,960
way back when, and that's all he
needed.

598
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:26,880
But when ruling all red and
Joseph, Mustard showed up in

599
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,840
Ozumba and they ordained him and
made him an apostle and give him

600
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,080
some additional authority.
Yeah, that's OK.

601
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,320
He'd take it.
He didn't need it, but he took

602
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:45,480
it and he had a lot of influence
on the Labarins Mr. Matisse did.

603
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,920
When you say, when you say, when
you say influence, what kind of

604
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,720
influence Are we talking
doctrinal influence are we

605
00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:59,480
talking influence of in terms of
money and success?

606
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:00,280
What?
What kind of oh.

607
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,760
From from Margarito, yeah.
No, Margarito didn't have no

608
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,480
money, OK?
Nobody had any money.

609
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,600
Everybody was poor.
But Margarito had some

610
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,240
interesting doctrines or
policies to begin with.

611
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:25,040
If you're going to live there.
He had a small united order, and

612
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,200
you had to agree that you wanted
to join the United order and you

613
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,920
had to agree to practice plural
marriage to join it.

614
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:40,440
But if you joined it, you had to
1st find yourself a plural wife

615
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,080
someplace else.
OK?

616
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,240
After you already had a plural
wife, then you could maybe, if

617
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:51,840
you, if you proved yourself
worthy, have a chance at some of

618
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,560
the girls within his
organization.

619
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,240
OK.
And he held the key to that.

620
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,120
And nobody could get married
without his permission.

621
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,560
He had to decide if they were
worthy or not.

622
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,560
And he was also extremely
abusive of women.

623
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,400
All of these people seem to be
abusive of women.

624
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:23,320
Women are to be abused.
Why do you think this is?

625
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:23,880
Why?
Why?

626
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,200
Because because I'm seeing a a a
thread here, right?

627
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,000
Ben's abusive to his women that
gets passed on to Ervil and and

628
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,760
his brother Batista seems to be
very abusive.

629
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,760
What?
What is causing this?

630
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:45,280
Keep them in line.
You and I grew up in a world

631
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,080
where women had some value,
right?

632
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,200
There was a long time that women
couldn't vote, so he couldn't

633
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:58,520
hold property.
They interesting, but women?

634
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:09,920
Women had no value to speak of.
So after after Ervil and and his

635
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,560
brother kind of hook up with
Batista and and ruling Allred,

636
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,680
what happens next?
Well, they were.

637
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,680
They started the United orders
in colonial Lebaron.

638
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:34,240
Under the nominal leadership of
Musser and Margarita Batista,

639
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,760
the Allreds made an attempt to
build some houses and stuff

640
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:40,880
there.
Then they found they didn't

641
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:47,240
really need to get out of the
United States and they were

642
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:51,280
doing as best they could.
Joel Lebaron, in the meantime,

643
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,960
was doing his own thing.
But then a, a couple of things

644
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:09,880
happened in 1955, more or less,
they realized that they needed

645
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,440
some capital to do some things
they wanted to do.

646
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:22,280
So 3 little bears were going to
go north and approach the Allred

647
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,000
group about alone or some some
way of helping him out

648
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,280
financially and Joel decided to
go with him.

649
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,440
Now, Joel had been kind of
aside, he hadn't been really

650
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:41,960
part of the all of these things.
But about that time, the Mexican

651
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,280
government put a freeze on the
sale of corn and other

652
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,200
commodities and Joel went broke.
Gotcha.

653
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,680
So he joined up with them in
this United Order effort.

654
00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:00,160
And so the four of them went N
for them.

655
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,760
How many?
Let me count again.

656
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:08,480
No, I guess it was Joel and
Flora and Vernon.

657
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:13,520
Three of them went N excuse me?
And so three of them went N to

658
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:20,520
approach the Allreds.
He already said no, so Berlin

659
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,480
returned home.
He had things he had to do in

660
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,400
Mexico.
He was trying to form and do

661
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,760
some stuff and had a couple
wives by.

662
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,160
They had three by then, so he
had to go home.

663
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:38,760
But Joel and Florin stayed with
their brother in Salt Lake City.

664
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,680
That's Ross Lebaron, Ross
Wesley, Lebaron, senior, senior.

665
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,320
Let's make sure we say senior.
Junior had a completely

666
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:51,680
different story.
OK, but they went with their

667
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,440
brother.
Their brother was wanting to

668
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:59,160
start a church.
A Church of the First Born.

669
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,000
This was Joel, you said.
And they talked and they talked

670
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,280
and they, OK, let's do it.
And it was definitely going to

671
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,320
be a church along patriarchal
lines.

672
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,000
It was going to be ruled over by
the presiding patriarch, who

673
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,920
was, of course, Wesley, the
older one, and Joel and four,

674
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,600
and we're going to be there with
him.

675
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:29,320
But it was going to be along the
lines that Ross Wesley wanted to

676
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:35,200
do it.
But remember I said Le Bears

677
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,520
were destined to rule.
Yeah.

678
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,840
They thought they, they they
know more than got the thing

679
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,800
going.
Then Joel decided he wasn't

680
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:52,120
happy with it, so he went to
Farmington, UT up Farmington

681
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,560
Canyon.
You live up there?

682
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,960
You are Farmington Canyon, yes?
I know where it's at, Yep.

683
00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:00,040
Yeah, well, it's kind of a steep
walk up there, if I remember

684
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,960
right.
And you get up there, you're up

685
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,120
in the clouds.
It's pretty nice place.

686
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,440
Well, he went up there to pray
and get some direction.

687
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:17,720
He was there for a little while
and he, he had a whole lot of

688
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:23,280
heavenly visitors and he came
back down rather quickly with a

689
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:27,160
whole lot of answers.
He showed up at Carl Jensen's

690
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,440
place that used to be in the
mouth of Farmington Canyon and

691
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,880
they call in floor and come and
picked him up, took him back to

692
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,920
Salt Lake.
But that was the end of the

693
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:44,720
association with Ross.
Wesley Joel had to go do his own

694
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:49,360
thing.
Now what Joel had in mind was to

695
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:55,360
reorganize the church along the
pattern that Joseph Smith had

696
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,800
used.
So Joel, Joel wants to to to

697
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,560
kind of reorganize the church to
something, right?

698
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:04,520
Right.
He feels is more historically

699
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:09,320
accurate to Joseph Smith.
So he, he starts down that path.

700
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,680
How does Ervil get involved with
that?

701
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:19,160
Well, Ervil loved his brother.
He was probably the first or

702
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,000
second convert when he went back
to Mexico.

703
00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:28,360
OK.
And he baptized his mother, and

704
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,760
he baptized Ervil.
And Alma came along, and some of

705
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,200
the others.
Pretty soon he had most of the

706
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,480
brothers, except Berlin.
Berlin didn't really.

707
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:43,000
He was still happy being a
run-of-the-mill fundamentalist.

708
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,040
Sure.
But they set up a church, and

709
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,440
Ervil was the brains of the
operation.

710
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:59,600
OK, a lot of of the stuff that
Joel took took credit for was

711
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,840
actually done by Ervil.
He's the writer.

712
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,520
He's the translator.
He's the author of what they

713
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:12,440
consider their greatest document
preached, expounded, the one

714
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,920
that convinced the French
missionary to join the church,

715
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,240
the first board.
He's the author, along with the

716
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:22,160
guy by the name of Noel Pratt,
of the 60 questions that the

717
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:26,480
Mormons couldn't answer that
Joel took credit for.

718
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,920
And Joel and Earl's a good, good
follower, a good he.

719
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,000
He's perfectly willing today,
and his brother take credit for

720
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,120
everything.
And that's what he did.

721
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,360
OK, got you take credit for
everything.

722
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:48,560
And people began to join.
Some of those ideas were pretty

723
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:50,920
strong.
Let's let's talk about another

724
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,000
point real quick before it gets
out of here.

725
00:50:54,960 --> 00:51:00,600
I joined the Church of the first
born in 1960, three, 64 in that

726
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:05,000
area.
But you know why I was able to

727
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,920
be converted?
I was completely convinced that

728
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,080
the Jesus Church of Jesus
Christ, the letter Saints, had

729
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,600
gone S they had lost it.
They didn't know what they were

730
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,840
doing, and they had tried to
make me do things that I knew

731
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,760
were wrong.
So when they had church, the

732
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,720
first one may strange come
along, hey, they're doing what

733
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:27,520
God said to do.
And they gave me hope, hope of

734
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:34,560
finding the true Church of God.
And I don't think anybody has

735
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:39,080
ever been converted based on
somebody's pushing them if they

736
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,280
hadn't already decided that
there was something wrong with

737
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,880
what they had.
Right, So it's.

738
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:51,880
Hope, hope that converts people.
Well, Irvo was able to get some

739
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:57,960
a somewhat logical approach that
people could say see it and say,

740
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,440
oh, there's some hope, some hope
there to live.

741
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:07,840
The church that I believe in to
worship God because the Mormon

742
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,600
church is gone.
They're they're over the hill.

743
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,000
Forget them.
They're going, they're going

744
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:14,280
straight.
They're going to become a

745
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,120
mainline Protestant church next
week.

746
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:23,880
I think they already have.
But anyway, all of that hope is

747
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,000
what converted people to be part
of the church, the first part,

748
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,840
the fullest of times.
And there was a lot of them.

749
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,080
There was intelligent people.
There was a whole bunch of

750
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,480
French missions became
converted.

751
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,600
They almost destroyed the French
missions.

752
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,440
I've heard that, yeah.
Bill Tucker was a very smart man

753
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,720
and he had some influence.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

754
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:52,600
Renegade podcast?
Well, good news, we're on

755
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,040
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

756
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,200
from.
The first one, the Slightly

757
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,480
rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

758
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,440
those pesky commercials getting
in the way.

759
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,520
For those who want a slightly
more in depth experience,

760
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,480
there's the Stirring It Up
package where you can hear ad

761
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,480
free audio, AD free video and
transcripts.

762
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,360
Finally, for those who want to
go full Renegade, that package

763
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,040
is available too, where you can
get everything in the previous

764
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:22,080
two packages plus an extra show
where myself and Ben Winfield

765
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,240
breakdown the news of the day
from a very Mormon point of

766
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:27,280
view.
You will also get exclusive

767
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,080
access to Renegade chat and on
there you'll be able to talk to

768
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,560
others about the show or
whatever topics are on your

769
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,400
mind.
Go to Patreon today and get your

770
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,920
exclusive content.
But the thing that they came for

771
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:45,080
was the hope that they found
when they heard about priesthood

772
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:49,640
expounded.
I I personally think priests

773
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,640
expounded is a piece of crap.
But that's just me, right?

774
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,760
I I see errors in it.
I see plagiarism.

775
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:03,280
I see a lot of stuff in it.
But to a lot of people, hey,

776
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,480
here's somebody who's got some
answers and she wins.

777
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,520
They're living love.
They're living the plural

778
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,320
marriage.
They're living love

779
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,000
consecration.
They're, they're practicing

780
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,880
adoption.
And the Mormon churches give all

781
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,240
that stuff up.
There's some hope here.

782
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,760
And they and they can use their
scriptures.

783
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,400
One of the interesting things I
learned early on with that

784
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:33,800
church is, well, we just handed
out a document here, and you're

785
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,880
going to come out and then talk
to me about it.

786
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,480
OK Well, fine.
That's great.

787
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,600
Do you have your scriptures with
you?

788
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:44,080
Oh, yeah.
Let me borrow.

789
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:46,920
Oh, thank you.
Open it up.

790
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,440
Would you read that for me?
Oh, fine.

791
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,040
What does that mean?
Every time it was something that

792
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:59,640
couldn't be fed and whoops,
well, I'm going to go in and get

793
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:01,440
somebody to know that'll take
you on.

794
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,360
And the guys are familiar with
Badger testimony, and they were

795
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:05,960
gone.
Gotcha.

796
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,280
It was and and people watching
that say, hey, these guys have

797
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,680
got it.
These guys have got it.

798
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:16,680
They really have the spirit of
God.

799
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:21,960
And the church elders, all these
scriptorians, have to go away

800
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:23,440
with the tail between their
legs.

801
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:29,680
That's impressive.
So if you're if you're unhappy

802
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,680
at the church to begin with, and
you have to be a little bit, you

803
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:38,960
wouldn't even listen to it.
You might just be convinced.

804
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,200
Right.
You might not make the jump

805
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,680
because it's a big leap.
It's a big leap for me.

806
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,920
I was associated with for quite
a while before I actually

807
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:51,600
joined.
Right.

808
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,360
I mean, my parents and
grandparents, my grandparents

809
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,600
all were in the church forever.
They're all people that had who

810
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,360
were in some of the history
books.

811
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,000
Nah, it was.
I'm not going to leave all that

812
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:06,600
behind for a bunch of crazy
people.

813
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,800
I was convinced that what they
were doing was the same thing

814
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,480
that I had already been taught
to believe.

815
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,120
They offered me hope to return
to that religion.

816
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,600
Right.
And Ervil was the man in charge

817
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,880
of disseminating all that hope.
Because he was the head

818
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:35,440
missionary.
He was in charge of the

819
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:39,640
initially just the Southern
Mexico mission and then the

820
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,400
whole mission.
And eventually he received.

821
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,440
He got this number two position
in Joel's church.

822
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,560
Joel had offered it to Ludenard,
Luna said.

823
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,520
No, thank you.
He had offered it to.

824
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,240
Margaret.
H Batista.

825
00:56:56,240 --> 00:57:02,560
And he said no thank you.
And so after a while, Ervil rose

826
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,640
to be the number two guy.
And the churches going places,

827
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,440
they're converting all kinds of
people.

828
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,520
Catholic priests, they had
dignitaries from different

829
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:18,000
things, two or three bishops
from the Mormon church, people

830
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:23,960
from other countries, people
from the that work in the state

831
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:27,560
Department of the United States.
They had some pretty heavyweight

832
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:34,800
people converting.
And Ervil is the intellectual

833
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,480
head of this.
But Joel's taking all the

834
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,920
credit.
And Joel's the heart of it.

835
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,040
He's the head guy.
So let me ask you this, how does

836
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:50,680
Joel administer this church?
Is he is he kind of like Ben

837
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:51,360
was?
Where?

838
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,680
Look, everything has to flow
through me.

839
00:57:53,840 --> 00:58:05,320
Joel Joel was a humble man.
He he would talk in a way that

840
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:11,640
people understood him and he
would quote some of the early

841
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,360
Mormon leaders and people didn't
know any better, thought that

842
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:20,200
was coming straight from Joel.
He liked to quote Heber C

843
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,320
Kimball, for instance, somebody
that knew what Heber C Kimball

844
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,400
had said was that, oh, he got
that from Heber C Kimball.

845
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,880
But people that didn't know any
better thought that came

846
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,880
straight from Joel.
Interesting.

847
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,120
Or one thing you'd like to say,
well, every tub has to sit on

848
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:40,480
his own bottom.
He got that from one of the

849
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:47,600
early parts of the church, or I
I I put my pants on when I get a

850
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,600
time.
Meaning I'm just another man.

851
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:56,080
Right.
But he he he preached a good

852
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:04,840
song and he wanted people to use
their own judgement in things.

853
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:10,040
Gotcha.
But people, people don't don't

854
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:11,880
like that.
Gotcha.

855
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:17,280
People want to be told what to
do, what you used to having a

856
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:19,720
profit.
If I can't get him to tell me

857
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,320
what to do.
Right.

858
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,200
People want to be told what to
do.

859
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,720
They don't want to may be
responsible for their own

860
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,320
decisions.
They don't want to get down on

861
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:41,480
their knees and ask God, what
should I do?

862
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:47,040
It's so much easier to go and
see Joe Lebaron or Ervila Bear

863
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,080
to say, hey, I got a problem
here.

864
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:50,720
What do you think I ought to do
about it?

865
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:57,960
Got you, Ervil would say.
Well, I just had a revelation.

866
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,640
You should give all your money
to me and let me marry that girl

867
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:06,400
over there.
Joel would say, well, you

868
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,400
probably ought to think about a
little bit and just there.

869
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,760
But you know, people would
eventually think that Joel had

870
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:17,880
told him what to do and they
would do it.

871
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,160
Gotcha.
It's like we're told that Phil

872
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:27,440
Smith asked God 3-4 times about
allowing that first 116 pages to

873
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:32,920
go right, and God finally says,
yeah, go And they promptly got

874
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:41,120
lost, right, because Joseph
Smith decided that he had the

875
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:46,280
answer that it'd be OK Well,
people would do that to Joel to

876
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,800
a certain extent.
Joel wouldn't come out and say

877
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,320
this is what God wants you to
do, but he might hint to you

878
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,520
know.
Well, perhaps you should

879
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,640
consider the answer to that.
And people go home thinking that

880
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,040
Joe told them what to do and
that's what they would do.

881
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,880
Gotcha.
Gotcha And.

882
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,040
People wouldn't do nothing
without or anything.

883
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,240
They wouldn't do anything.
They do nothing is what they do.

884
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,720
They wouldn't do anything
without the approval of the

885
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:20,320
profit.
I understand for a while we we

886
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:24,680
were very we grew a lot.
I actually ended up being the

887
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:28,160
Bishop, agent or presiding elder
for three different

888
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:33,840
congregations.
We had one in San Diego with a

889
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:36,960
bunch of people, I don't know 50
to 100 people show up there.

890
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,840
We had one in Tijuana with quite
a few people in it, and we had

891
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,160
one in Los Molinos with quite a
few people in it.

892
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:49,080
And somehow I ended up being the
presiding elder over all three.

893
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:55,440
So I would be one place and then
I'd wander around anyway.

894
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:01,960
I would, I was in the one in
Baja California at at a point

895
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,640
after they'd already brought a
lot of the Mexicans from the

896
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:09,560
South to making a hill.
And we had a church building

897
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:13,280
down there and it was raining
like crazy and water was running

898
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,600
in the church.
And I said, hey, let's why don't

899
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,800
you give me a hand and we'll dig
a ditch and we'll send that

900
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:22,160
water down the hill.
Oh, we have to ask Joel first.

901
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:28,080
They wouldn't even use enough
brains to say let's let's stop

902
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:32,080
the water and dig a ditch
without Joel's OK.

903
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,760
And Joel wasn't around.
Right.

904
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:40,360
I dubbed the ditch and resigned
as Presiding elder in that

905
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,640
particular area.
Gotcha, gotcha.

906
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:47,440
So you you said something
earlier though in that part

907
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,000
where you said Ervil was the
kind of guy though that would

908
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:54,720
have a revelation to give us
money and then and then do that.

909
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:59,520
That's the difference.
Ervil understood that if he had

910
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:01,560
a revelation, he he began to
make it.

911
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:09,840
Greedy how I put it.
Section 121 of the Doctor

912
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,960
Covenants, verse 34 and you're
called but fewer chosen.

913
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:19,600
And why are they not chosen?
Because as soon as they get a

914
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:24,160
little priest in authority, so
they believe or think like I'm

915
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:28,640
not, I'm paraphrasing it, they
immediately begin to exercise

916
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,960
unjust dominion.
Right, right.

917
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:37,240
And that's what they do.
So do you think Herbal kind of

918
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:40,120
maybe learned some of this
though from Ben watching Ben

919
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:42,240
preside over his church for a
while?

920
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:46,760
He he was had come from a very
poor situation.

921
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,960
He had come from sacrificing
everything, but all of a sudden

922
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:55,160
there's money available and he's
able to travel.

923
01:03:55,560 --> 01:04:01,760
Not like this.
Not hitching a a ride, but he's

924
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:07,440
traveling in a nice new car.
He had afford.

925
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,520
He could afford afford.
Gotcha.

926
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,920
OK.
And he was traveling around.

927
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:21,280
He could afford nice clothes.
He wore very nice clothes.

928
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,600
He wore shiny shoes.
He was sleeping in motels.

929
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:29,360
Unless he was sleeping at
somebody's house, he was eating

930
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:35,680
good food.
Now every have you ever met?

931
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:41,360
Have you ever met a poor
preacher or a poor politician?

932
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:44,640
No, they tend not to exist a
whole bunch.

933
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:46,680
I mean, there's a few, but not
really.

934
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,240
Of course, every one of them are
doing it in the name of the Lord

935
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,520
or to protect the Constitution
or something.

936
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:58,360
But somehow they all get money.
I have a a son-in-law that's an

937
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:06,200
evangelical preacher.
Oh, pastor, preacher, reverend.

938
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:08,720
He speaks Spanish.
I'll have to change this.

939
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:15,440
We just made this nice bowl of
pozzoli.

940
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:17,280
Can we leave a little bit with
you?

941
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:20,240
Here's enough to feed your
family for a week.

942
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:22,920
OK.
Thank you.

943
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:30,760
Oh, preacher, Pastor, we just
made this cake.

944
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:37,320
Would you like some cake?
People want to impress the

945
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:41,640
preacher.
They want to gather approval

946
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:46,160
from the preacher.
They seek approval.

947
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:51,560
Everything that we do, we do
because we want to seek approval

948
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:57,320
from God's servant.
It's it's true with any religion

949
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:07,920
in any country, with any God.
If I were in India, I want to

950
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:16,800
please Krishna or somebody.
If I was in Arabia, I want to

951
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,120
play.
I want to impress the local,

952
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:24,840
what they call any, the guy who
runs the mosque, the, the.

953
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,560
I think they call him clerics.
I want to impress the rabbi.

954
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,920
It's a it's a worldwide,
universal trait of people.

955
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:39,360
They want to please the person
that they admire.

956
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:44,280
If I'm a politician, if I was a
Republican, well, maybe last

957
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:47,520
year I wanted to get, what's his
name, Trump's approval.

958
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:52,440
This year, maybe I don't care.
But if I was a Democrat, I

959
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:57,760
definitely want to impress
Biden, you know?

960
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:00,280
Right.
That's people.

961
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:07,720
That's people.
So if I was had been poor all my

962
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:15,840
life, if I'd had to maybe wear
used clothes, maybe use a wire

963
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:20,720
to hold up my pants for a while
that's that's a lie that

964
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,640
somebody told me you had to use
barbed wire fence when they'd

965
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:29,840
hold your pants up.
But anyway, if if I had come up

966
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:35,520
from a very poor situation,
which everybody from that era

967
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:39,480
did, they came out of the
Depression, for crying out loud,

968
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:46,600
and all of a sudden, hey, I I
can do anything I want.

969
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:49,280
I've got money.
Where'd it come from?

970
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,320
Well, people just hand it to me,
right?

971
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,400
And that's nice.
Right.

972
01:07:55,520 --> 01:08:00,720
And now I'm.
I'm the alpha male and Irwin was

973
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:02,640
a pretty nice looking guy.
You've seen him.

974
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:07,840
I think I probably got a picture
of him here if you didn't.

975
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:12,400
He was a tall, muscular,
beautiful man.

976
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:14,960
I suppose.
I've never had much taste in

977
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:17,760
men.
But anyway, he was a good

978
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:20,359
looking man.
He was the alpha male.

979
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,120
He was the one out front doing
things.

980
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:27,080
He was the smart one.
He was the intellectual head of

981
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:28,840
the Church.
Gotcha.

982
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,279
Gotcha.
OK I.

983
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:36,279
Think I'm glove.
OK, so we've kind of set the

984
01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:39,720
stage here of what where ervil's
at at this time.

985
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:43,840
When does things start going off
the rails for Ervil?

986
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:45,560
What?
What?

987
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:46,040
What?
What?

988
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:47,560
Got him off the rail.
Yeah.

989
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:48,240
What?
What?

990
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:50,600
What is it that gets Ervil off
the rails?

991
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:52,120
What causes?
That's.

992
01:08:52,279 --> 01:08:57,920
Ervil to go down the.
Path Ervil was doing everything

993
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,640
he could for the church,
everything.

994
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:05,920
He was a church's agent.
And important factor if you live

995
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:12,399
in Mexico is that a person like
you or me cannot own property

996
01:09:13,399 --> 01:09:15,760
along the beaches or next to the
borders.

997
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,319
It's 50 kilometers from the
beach.

998
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:25,920
It's 100 kilometers from the
borders and the church had

999
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:28,600
invested pretty heavily in Baja
California.

1000
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:33,720
Thousands, thousands of Victoria
and Victoria is 2 1/2 acres.

1001
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:36,880
More or less.
Thousands of Victorias.

1002
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:40,200
All in the name of guess who?
Herbal.

1003
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:46,200
Herbal, The Mexican, and no
problem.

1004
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:51,240
It's all church property.
It's all going to be used, and

1005
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:56,040
your Ervil is pushing everything
he can to make the church go.

1006
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:03,400
But there's some women that
weren't happy with their

1007
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:08,400
husbands for one reason or
another, and a couple of them

1008
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,880
were perfectly willing to go be
Ervil's wife.

1009
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:17,600
So these women were flocking to
Ervil?

1010
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,880
OK.
Pretty soon he's got 13 wives.

1011
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:25,680
I see.
And how many kids?

1012
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,400
I don't know.
But a whole flock of kids and

1013
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:32,760
you got to feed them.
So he's around hitting everybody

1014
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:36,280
up for money.
Oh, we've got a project over

1015
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:38,640
here.
It's going to take about $5000

1016
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:41,920
and we really like you to help.
Oh thank you.

1017
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:44,520
Oh, we've got this project
there.

1018
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:46,760
It's going to take about 5000.
We'd like you to help pretty

1019
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:49,080
soon.
He's got $15,000 towards that

1020
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:51,080
project.
Gotcha.

1021
01:10:52,160 --> 01:11:00,240
And another thing that happened.
Most of us only joined OK, we're

1022
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:03,720
going to leave the United order.
Here's everything I own.

1023
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,720
All I've got now is my wages for
my work.

1024
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:15,000
Some people didn't.
Why not?

1025
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:20,120
Oh, I need money to keep my my
business going.

1026
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:25,120
I'd buy property, I build
houses, and it takes money to do

1027
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:26,880
that.
So I can't give all of my

1028
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:29,080
property, but I can give some
profits.

1029
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:36,440
Right.
Or I got animals that I buy and

1030
01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:40,080
sell.
Or I raise chickens, turkeys,

1031
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:44,040
cows, it don't matter.
In order to do that, I have to

1032
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:48,880
have capital, so I'm going to
end up keeping my money.

1033
01:11:50,440 --> 01:11:53,520
So pretty soon you've got an
economic disparity.

1034
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:59,560
Some people that have money and
some people that don't, and for

1035
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:06,600
some reason most of the people
that had money were in a church

1036
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:11,320
position.
Sounds like the Mormons, huh?

1037
01:12:13,480 --> 01:12:17,320
They were on what was called the
Standing High Council.

1038
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:26,320
The standing high council was
the equal to the traveling high

1039
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:31,120
council, but the Standing high
council was in Zion.

1040
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:33,520
The Traveling High Council is
supposed to be out in the

1041
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:34,960
mission field.
Right.

1042
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:44,480
So somehow most of those men got
on the standing High council and

1043
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:47,840
somehow I got to be on that
standing high council that was

1044
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:51,920
poor as can be.
But I was on that same council,

1045
01:12:53,440 --> 01:12:59,320
so I saw this myself, all right?
And people were complaining

1046
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,360
about Ervil's and his constant
looking for money.

1047
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:08,160
Gotcha.
And there was also some people

1048
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:14,720
that were very unhappy about him
constantly dealing in women.

1049
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:20,120
How I put that be good to me and
we'll get you a wife, right?

1050
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:24,880
People didn't like that.
Or worse than that.

1051
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:29,120
Suppose you're on the standing
high council and your wife is

1052
01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:33,200
wanting to leave you to go marry
Ervil and take your kids with

1053
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:35,000
her.
Gotcha.

1054
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:38,600
Yeah.
So all of this pressure was

1055
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:41,040
there.
So we're sitting in a high

1056
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:46,480
council meeting and basically
what I hear, my interpretation

1057
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:52,720
of what I heard is you've got to
put some brakes or some reins.

1058
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:59,600
Reins like to drive a horse on
Ervil because he's completely

1059
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:05,760
out of control and and if you
don't, well, guess what we're

1060
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:09,520
not going to invest in nothing.
I see.

1061
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:12,880
And they had thousands of acres
in Mexico that they were going

1062
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:20,560
to build a big resort hotel with
the harbor and the whole bit and

1063
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:27,600
let's get some rings on verbal
or it's not going to work the

1064
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:31,440
next day.
The next day her Joel came back

1065
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:36,440
and had a revelation and
released Earl of all positions,

1066
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:43,600
all positions.
And Earl didn't believe it.

1067
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:48,760
Earl had served his brother in
every way possible.

1068
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:51,680
He loved his brother
unconditionally.

1069
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:57,240
He had devoted his entire life
to religion and especially to

1070
01:14:57,240 --> 01:14:59,640
the success success of his
brother church.

1071
01:14:59,920 --> 01:15:03,520
And here it was doing very well,
with a lot of people coming,

1072
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:09,720
with lots of money and property
and everything, and Joel turned

1073
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:13,240
on him.
How do you think?

1074
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:16,920
He felt.
So let let me ask this though,

1075
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:21,720
let me let me just from an
outsider looking in, let me ask

1076
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:25,680
this question, 'cause I based on
what you just described to me

1077
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:29,560
about what Ervil's doing and
then people saying you've got to

1078
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:36,240
reign in Ervil here, yeah.
Well, what happened is he lost

1079
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:42,560
his best friend.
His best friend, His brother

1080
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:47,360
turned on him.
I'm not going to argue whether

1081
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:52,240
he deserved that or not.
All I'm going to say is that

1082
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:55,000
there should have been some
other way to deal with it.

1083
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:00,600
So Ervil, when he hears this, he
don't believe it.

1084
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:05,120
He finally gets to his brother
and he says is it true?

1085
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:08,240
Yes.
And he woke down and cried like

1086
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:09,680
a baby.
He couldn't believe it.

1087
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:13,480
OK, but but I'm.
I'm going to push back here a

1088
01:16:13,480 --> 01:16:15,400
little bit, Dwayne.
OK.

1089
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:19,080
Because to me, it sounds like
Ervil is already practicing a

1090
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:22,520
form of priest craft right with.
Again.

1091
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:26,800
It seems to me that as you
described Ervil, the way he was,

1092
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:32,000
quote, rescuing women, the way
that he was going around getting

1093
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:36,600
money for projects that would
later line his prop own pocket

1094
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,560
to to to finance his family,
that was.

1095
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:40,800
Wrong.
That was wrong.

1096
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:43,840
This is Priest Craft.
Let's call it what it is, right?

1097
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:45,840
It's priest craft.
Yes, it is.

1098
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:49,960
I don't doubt that.
And so we wouldn't if, if, if

1099
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:54,360
this happened inside any other
religious organization,

1100
01:16:56,040 --> 01:17:00,320
basically excommunicating that
guy because what you've done is

1101
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:04,080
you've essentially taken the
Lord's money and screwed around

1102
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:04,880
with it.
Right.

1103
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:10,920
So yeah.
So so in in this way I I don't I

1104
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:14,200
don't see a problem with the way
Joel handled this right.

1105
01:17:14,440 --> 01:17:15,920
I think that's.
Probably.

1106
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:18,760
The only way you could.
Handle like I said, they could

1107
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:20,120
have.
There was other ways he could

1108
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:22,920
have handled it.
How else would you have handled

1109
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:24,160
that?
Let me ask you that.

1110
01:17:24,480 --> 01:17:26,320
Well, what did they do in the
Mormon church?

1111
01:17:26,440 --> 01:17:29,800
They put them on a stipend.
Is that the word they use?

1112
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:32,840
So it's not.
An income, A stipend?

1113
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:35,480
Yeah.
They they give them an

1114
01:17:35,480 --> 01:17:40,520
allowance, they could give
everyone an allowance and says

1115
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:43,640
OK, let's figure out what you
need, this is what you get.

1116
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:48,880
Right.
But nonetheless, he did commit a

1117
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,280
pretty serious transgression,
right?

1118
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:54,840
It it deserves some sort of
discipline and.

1119
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,240
It could have been.
It could have been nipped in the

1120
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:01,000
bud a whole lot sooner.
That's where I was going, right?

1121
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,600
Is nipping this in the bud
sooner because.

1122
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:07,720
But Irvo loved his brother.
His brother loved him.

1123
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:15,320
And nobody was innocent.
He wasn't the only one that was

1124
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:17,520
taking advantage.
Sure.

1125
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:24,960
Some of them that's still there
were taking advantage.

1126
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:30,560
Other brothers were not hesitant
to take advantage.

1127
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:34,560
Any chance they got.
Joe called one of his brothers

1128
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:37,040
said.
You have the soul of a pig.

1129
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:44,200
He was that greedy.
That was to the brother, Alma

1130
01:18:44,440 --> 01:18:47,080
Junior.
OK, gotcha.

1131
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:53,160
Irva wasn't the only one.
Gotcha.

1132
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:59,680
A lot of the others were getting
money one way or another for

1133
01:19:00,440 --> 01:19:04,920
different projects, and
sometimes the project should

1134
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:06,600
make it.
Most of the time they didn't.

1135
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:12,280
But every there was a whole lot
of people getting money from a

1136
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:16,080
whole lot of other people.
Earl was not alone.

1137
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:19,520
Gotcha, Gotcha 10 four.
OK, so.

1138
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:24,200
Neither was Joel innocent.
OK, All right.

1139
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:29,240
So let me ask you this.
Obviously now he's broke, right?

1140
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:31,960
He's broken, so to speak,
because he's had everything

1141
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:34,800
taken away now because all the
property was in the church's

1142
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:36,800
name, right?
That, that IRVO.

1143
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:40,280
The church's name?
No, the church didn't have any

1144
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:43,760
property in its name.
That's a big that's the big

1145
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:52,560
point about Irvo being a Mexican
in 1917, nineteen 15/19/17 in

1146
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:56,840
Mexico, they had a revolution.
It was because of the church.

1147
01:19:56,840 --> 01:20:02,000
The Catholic Church owned almost
all the land, and after that

1148
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:07,200
revolution it became against the
law for any church to own any

1149
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:12,360
land in Mexico.
They've let that slide a little

1150
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:14,280
bit.
Now, the Mormon Church actually

1151
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:19,400
owns some land in Mexico.
But the Catholic Church uses all

1152
01:20:19,400 --> 01:20:23,480
those churches as a concession
from the government.

1153
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:26,040
But they don't own them.
They belong to the nation.

1154
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:28,640
Gotcha.
OK, so.

1155
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:31,160
Who's?
Well, let's chase this a little

1156
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:34,560
further.
All of that land was in Earl's

1157
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:37,640
name because the church didn't
own anything.

1158
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:44,480
OK.
Every Earl's had all the land

1159
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:52,520
and and after Joel was killed
and Irwin was gone, I got to

1160
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:58,280
watch the Lebaron's fight over
who got to Church's land because

1161
01:20:58,280 --> 01:21:00,320
it wasn't going to be anybody.
It wasn't going to be the

1162
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:02,200
church.
Right.

1163
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:08,880
So Irva wasn't the only one.
So if you're in a band of

1164
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:13,600
thieves, are you going to
actually mitigate the one that

1165
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:17,720
is the head thief?
Right.

1166
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:23,680
I see where you're going.
Let let me ask you this, Ervil.

1167
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:27,840
And and I'm seeing kind of a
repeat here with Ben, right.

1168
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:34,440
Ervil loses and then he kind of
he, he loses a lot, right.

1169
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:43,640
And then he kind of loses it.
Where At what point does he not

1170
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:44,960
just decide?
You know what?

1171
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:49,680
This sucks.
I'll just take the land that I

1172
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:52,720
own, sell it off, and then I can
at least take care of my family.

1173
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:58,320
How does he go from, from, you
know, my brother's wronged me to

1174
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:00,120
it's time for me to start
killing people.

1175
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:05,200
Standard stages of grief.
I don't believe it.

1176
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:08,560
Oh damn, I'm going to cry about
it.

1177
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:11,840
I'm going to get even.
I'm going to get mad.

1178
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:17,280
I am going to there.
I've been done wrong.

1179
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:23,440
I'm going to get even right.
And that spirit can turn into

1180
01:22:23,440 --> 01:22:27,560
the spirit of murder real easy.
When a husband and a wife get

1181
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:30,880
divorced, it's never a pretty
picture.

1182
01:22:31,160 --> 01:22:34,520
No.
They hate each other.

1183
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:39,480
Yep.
And it's it's an ugly, ugly

1184
01:22:39,480 --> 01:22:41,920
picture.
And in some cases it does turn

1185
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:43,800
to murder.
Sure.

1186
01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:47,800
But not not not very often
Let's.

1187
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:52,600
But it's apart from that, apart
from that, Ervil still felt like

1188
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:57,200
he he could do some things, so
he immediately decides to

1189
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:01,880
rearrange the church.
Nobody paid him any attention.

1190
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:08,560
So OK, I can't do that.
He he he got himself a small

1191
01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:14,000
following, but he's cut off from
his number one source of income.

1192
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:20,600
In other words, he went from a
whole lot of people that he

1193
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:25,200
could leave a bit of money on
out of to a very small group of

1194
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:28,040
people that he'd get a little
bit of money out of.

1195
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,720
Gotcha.
That wasn't a pretty picture.

1196
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:35,000
But he still has the land,
right?

1197
01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:39,880
He still has the land.
No.

1198
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:42,440
The Land's in his.
You you said the land was.

1199
01:23:42,440 --> 01:23:44,400
In here, I I didn't finish the
story.

1200
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:51,360
OK, Joe decided that he would
get that land away from her.

1201
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:56,840
How?
Mexico at the time had a law

1202
01:23:57,200 --> 01:24:03,120
that allowed the poor people to
petition for unused property,

1203
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:08,640
and this was native land.
It wasn't being used and the

1204
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:13,480
president at the time, a fellow
by name H Maria, had had said,

1205
01:24:13,480 --> 01:24:15,760
we're not going to do this
anymore, it's over.

1206
01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:21,240
But as soon as he became
president, all the all the poor

1207
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:25,160
people went on strike and he
changed his mind and he ended up

1208
01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:30,040
giving more land to the poor
people than anybody since Lazaro

1209
01:24:30,040 --> 01:24:33,800
Cardenas, who had been the the
big guy that gave the land to

1210
01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:40,680
the poor people way back when.
OK, so Joel said, OK, I'm going

1211
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:44,240
to start in a heel.
So we sent some of the old

1212
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:48,680
Mexican members to Mexico City
to petition the government to

1213
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:54,440
start in a heel, and it looks
like they're doing pretty good.

1214
01:24:54,440 --> 01:25:00,200
About that time, Orwell decided
he's going to steal my property.

1215
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:02,720
People, just because it was his
name.

1216
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:07,280
It was his.
It's it's like you.

1217
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:09,280
Were you in the military?
No.

1218
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:12,000
Oh, then you don't.
You won't understand this.

1219
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:15,240
I was the store keeper.
The guy that's got all this

1220
01:25:15,240 --> 01:25:17,200
stuff on the ship or on the
base.

1221
01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:21,040
He decided that's all his and
he's going to let you have it.

1222
01:25:21,480 --> 01:25:24,920
Unless he's got an order from
some superior person to let let

1223
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:30,240
it go.
He takes a owner's viewpoint of

1224
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:34,880
all that property.
Well, Ervil had decided all that

1225
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:40,440
probably was his, just because
it was his.

1226
01:25:40,440 --> 01:25:44,000
It had his name on it.
Legally, it was his.

1227
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:47,680
Never mind.
It was paid for by with church

1228
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:51,680
money, with contributions, with
tithing, with all that stuff.

1229
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:55,240
It was his.
It's like in the Mormon Church

1230
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:59,720
if, what's his name, Rusty,
anyway.

1231
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:04,560
He's the soul owner of that
corporation.

1232
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:08,360
Right, right.
Yep.

1233
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:11,520
He could take the whole thing
and run if he wanted to, I

1234
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:12,840
suppose.
Sure.

1235
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:20,760
Well, Ervil was the sole owner
of thousands of acres of land

1236
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:24,800
that the church had paid for,
but it was his, and he felt like

1237
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:31,080
it was his.
So Joel's going to win the game

1238
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:33,480
by taking the property away from
him.

1239
01:26:33,880 --> 01:26:36,240
He's going to do that by
bringing in a bunch of poor

1240
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:40,880
Mexicans and petition the
government for that property.

1241
01:26:43,160 --> 01:26:46,160
And Ervil says that is a
criminal act.

1242
01:26:47,520 --> 01:26:49,240
He shouldn't be allowed to do
that.

1243
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:52,280
If he does that, he is a is a
criminal.

1244
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:57,360
He's a thief because he's
stealing my property and he

1245
01:26:57,360 --> 01:26:58,720
deserves to die.
Gotcha.

1246
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:05,120
And if he's successful, he will
die.

1247
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:07,680
Gotcha.
Two days.

1248
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:15,800
Two days after the ajito thing
was approved, Joel was killed. 2

1249
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:20,160
days.
Interesting.

1250
01:27:20,440 --> 01:27:28,040
Now let me ask this question.
How did Ruben Allred get on his

1251
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:30,720
on Joel on Ervil's list?
I'm sorry.

1252
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:34,760
How did ruling Allred get on
Ervil's list?

1253
01:27:35,440 --> 01:27:40,000
Let's run a while.
Ruling Allred, of course, was

1254
01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:45,120
part of the people that were
over the Lebaron's when they

1255
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:49,480
were in the United Order in
1955.

1256
01:27:49,480 --> 01:27:56,240
And before ruling, Allred was
the first man that Joel asked to

1257
01:27:56,240 --> 01:28:03,000
be his number two man.
Ruben Allred was the head of the

1258
01:28:03,480 --> 01:28:07,080
group that the Lebaron's felt
was the legitimate

1259
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:17,200
fundamentalist group, and Ervil
wanted to get them into his

1260
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:21,320
group.
But even more importantly is

1261
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:34,400
that Verlin was married to 22
two nieces of ruling Allred and

1262
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:35,920
they wanted to get rid of
Berlin.

1263
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:38,720
They they had job dead already.
All right.

1264
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:45,040
So who do you want to get rid of
Berlin?

1265
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:47,960
The second the brother that
became the leader of the church

1266
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:52,600
after Joel died.
So I know what let's do.

1267
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:56,080
We'll just kill ruling Allred
because he doesn't want to get

1268
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:59,960
in line and follow us.
And when Verland shows up, the

1269
01:28:59,960 --> 01:29:01,600
funeral, we'll shoot him.
Wow.

1270
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:02,520
Wow.
So.

1271
01:29:03,400 --> 01:29:08,320
When that happens, they had
every cop in that in Utah

1272
01:29:08,320 --> 01:29:12,360
County, I guess there and they
lost their nerve.

1273
01:29:13,560 --> 01:29:16,840
So they killed Ruin Allred just
to get to Verland.

1274
01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:21,720
Yeah, wow.
That's the official story.

1275
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:24,000
I believe it.
OK.

1276
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:28,960
All right, holy cow.
And where are you?

1277
01:29:28,960 --> 01:29:31,280
Still part of the Church of the
First born when all this is

1278
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:33,840
happening.
I was IA member.

1279
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:36,280
Yeah.
Were you still a member inactive

1280
01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:42,920
during this whole time period?
I got out after Berlin was dead

1281
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:49,720
just before when I when I had
when I, as a member of the High

1282
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:54,240
Council set in on the meetings
where the the barons were

1283
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:57,160
fighting over who got the
church's property.

1284
01:29:57,160 --> 01:29:59,320
Joel's property.
OK.

1285
01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:03,000
Or villain's property.
Whoever's property which which

1286
01:30:03,040 --> 01:30:07,480
was barren got it.
I I I think I realized it.

1287
01:30:08,520 --> 01:30:10,520
I don't think I want anything to
do with these people.

1288
01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:12,520
Right.
Right.

1289
01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:15,320
And I left.
Gotcha gotcha.

1290
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:19,400
And so, yeah, I I.
So I ended up deciding.

1291
01:30:20,960 --> 01:30:25,040
I think Joel was right.
When he started, I'd hoped that

1292
01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:31,600
some of the people that followed
him would write, but they all

1293
01:30:32,040 --> 01:30:34,920
choose this one man on the earth
at a time.

1294
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:37,280
OK, I'll shut up.
Your turn.

1295
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:42,840
You're good, you're good.
I got two questions here before

1296
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:47,800
we wrap up.
The first one is this in your

1297
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:50,880
as.
As I'm listening to the story

1298
01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:58,520
here of how Ervil got to where
he was, to me there there seem

1299
01:30:58,520 --> 01:31:02,560
to be a couple key factors.
Before I tell you mine, I want

1300
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:06,320
to know what yours are.
As you look at what set the

1301
01:31:06,320 --> 01:31:08,920
stage for Ervil to do what he
did.

1302
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:14,680
What do you think it was?
I think that it was disappointed

1303
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:20,440
expectations.
He expected that the church was

1304
01:31:20,440 --> 01:31:27,320
going to conquer the the Joel's
church was going to completely

1305
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:32,040
conquer Mormandom and all of the
fundamentalist groups.

1306
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:36,200
He believed that, and it looked
like it was going to be true.

1307
01:31:36,200 --> 01:31:44,120
They they were really doing well
in the 60s and the early 70s and

1308
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:47,680
all of a sudden it stopped.
Gotcha.

1309
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:53,800
And so his expectations of doing
this great and wonderful thing

1310
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:59,720
for God and for the church was
God.

1311
01:31:59,800 --> 01:32:03,360
And just like his brother Ben,
when everything went wrong,

1312
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:08,040
everything went wrong for Ervil
and he snapped.

1313
01:32:08,760 --> 01:32:12,200
I talk about another person in
the in my book, a guy by the

1314
01:32:12,200 --> 01:32:16,560
name of Bill Tucker.
He was the another intellectual.

1315
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:19,360
He was doing great and wonderful
things.

1316
01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:22,960
He fully expected that when Joel
organized the church, he would

1317
01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:27,560
be in the First Presidency or he
would be this.

1318
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:30,240
He'd be that.
When Joel organized church, he

1319
01:32:30,240 --> 01:32:33,560
was just another apostle.
He was even the head apostle.

1320
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:40,160
And he left the church within
weeks after that.

1321
01:32:43,360 --> 01:32:50,040
And he became an atheist, if you
will, question whether even God

1322
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:51,960
lived.
He went from being the number

1323
01:32:51,960 --> 01:32:56,360
one one of the greatest
supporters of the church to

1324
01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:01,640
wondering if God even existed.
And he died.

1325
01:33:04,120 --> 01:33:08,560
Well, he he, God took him.
That's what we thought.

1326
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:14,840
He got an appendix, a burst of
Penix, and died within a month

1327
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:20,320
or so of leaving the church.
And that really put a scare on

1328
01:33:20,320 --> 01:33:22,680
us.
OK, OK.

1329
01:33:23,480 --> 01:33:27,760
And I think Ervil and Joe
believe that as much as the rest

1330
01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:31,760
of us did.
And so Ervil felt he did not.

1331
01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:37,400
He he could do no wrong.
Right.

1332
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:41,960
And then it all got taken away
from him.

1333
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:49,400
So let me push back here,
because there's a lot of people

1334
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:51,640
that get disappointed, right?
I've been.

1335
01:33:52,240 --> 01:33:57,760
I've been wealthy and poor
several times at no and and got

1336
01:33:57,760 --> 01:34:00,640
screwed over too, I should say
in in the process.

1337
01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:05,800
But I never went to that dude
has to die now.

1338
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:09,320
Neither have I, but other people
have.

1339
01:34:10,320 --> 01:34:15,920
Right.
And and and and that's where I

1340
01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:20,280
tend to be like well while there
are certainly circumstances that

1341
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:27,080
that surround this, I I think
that that herbal is ultimately

1342
01:34:27,080 --> 01:34:30,920
responsible for, for the actions
that were taken there, right.

1343
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:35,880
I don't ever want I I'm not a
big believer in you're a product

1344
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:41,640
of your environment that we see
people all the time that are

1345
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:47,080
able to to exercise upward
mobility and get out of their

1346
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:49,800
their bad situation and better
themselves.

1347
01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:56,280
So I I don't ever want to excuse
quite frankly in this case just

1348
01:34:57,440 --> 01:35:03,520
horrific actions because he felt
like he was wronged.

1349
01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:07,200
There's lots of people who get
wronged who end up making it

1350
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:14,320
still as I've looked at the
story as as we've sat down here

1351
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:17,760
and talked and and I can't thank
you enough for taking the time.

1352
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:20,560
It's not often you get to talk
to someone who was there while

1353
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:25,960
it happened and here's here's
what I I take away.

1354
01:35:25,960 --> 01:35:30,200
I think that herbal was years in
the making right.

1355
01:35:30,640 --> 01:35:35,280
I think that that he's raised in
a household that in my opinion

1356
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:37,960
sounds an awful lot like a
pressure cooker.

1357
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:42,280
You got dad who's who's super a
a super disciplinarian.

1358
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:46,240
A mom and her, her her kids are
not going to be second.

1359
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:49,800
Second place looks like the
first loser to her.

1360
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:56,840
So he has these pressures.
He comes back, he he watches his

1361
01:35:56,840 --> 01:36:01,280
brother Ben fail at starting a
church that had to leave a mark.

1362
01:36:02,640 --> 01:36:06,280
And then he he does put in a ton
of time into the church that

1363
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:12,520
Joel starts and you know, does a
lot of The Dirty work.

1364
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:17,560
But somewhere along the lines
hubris seems to set in for for

1365
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:21,200
Ervil, right where he starts
looking at things going, I'm

1366
01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:26,720
entitled to these things and and
then when that all gets taken

1367
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:32,920
away, he snaps, as you said, not
excusing what Ervil did 'cause

1368
01:36:33,000 --> 01:36:36,240
there there's no excuse for the
shedding of innocent blood.

1369
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:41,160
There's one other thing that I
think this all can kind of hinge

1370
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:49,360
on as well, and This is why I've
come to a point to where I'm not

1371
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:53,000
a huge fan of this.
Now I want to specify this.

1372
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:56,400
There are plenty of people that
adhere to this doctrine that

1373
01:36:56,400 --> 01:37:00,040
don't go crazy.
There's plenty of leaders that

1374
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:02,080
adhere to this doctrine that
don't go crazy.

1375
01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:08,520
But I I will make the case that
most things bad that happen in

1376
01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:14,960
Mormonism stem from a place
where the one man doctrine is is

1377
01:37:16,680 --> 01:37:22,320
adhered to.
There is this idea that that

1378
01:37:22,360 --> 01:37:25,240
that there's only so much
authority to go around, and if

1379
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:30,360
your authority has been
challenged, you have to respond.

1380
01:37:31,720 --> 01:37:36,560
And as I look at this one man
doctrine and how this fits in

1381
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:43,480
with this, I see Herbal being
being, you know in, in his mind

1382
01:37:43,480 --> 01:37:48,720
screwed over by Joel.
He he's he's really angry about

1383
01:37:48,720 --> 01:37:51,200
this.
And he I'm sure at some point

1384
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:52,880
he's like, I'm justified in
this.

1385
01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:55,760
Ervil's not the guy.
There can only be one guy on the

1386
01:37:55,760 --> 01:37:59,040
earth.
I should be that guy now, Ervil

1387
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:02,680
Joel's disqualified himself.
And then.

1388
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:06,680
And Ervil's that guy, Yes.
And Ervil's that guy, right?

1389
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:11,440
He believed that, and that's the
worst doctrine that exists in

1390
01:38:11,440 --> 01:38:13,480
the Mormon Church as far as I'm
concerned.

1391
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:17,080
Yeah, yeah, cause 'cause when
when you adhere to the one man

1392
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:20,800
doctrine, whether you want to
believe it or not, my opinion is

1393
01:38:20,800 --> 01:38:25,280
this, you no longer about are
about principle.

1394
01:38:25,280 --> 01:38:31,840
You're you're about whoever the
man is in charge and and one man

1395
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:35,520
ISM often gets accompanied by
infallibility.

1396
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:41,720
I I waste a lot of pages against
that particular Dalton in my

1397
01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:44,960
book.
Right, right, absolutely.

1398
01:38:46,400 --> 01:38:49,080
Yeah.
So those, those are the main

1399
01:38:49,080 --> 01:38:52,200
things I can see here that kind
of helped set the table.

1400
01:38:52,720 --> 01:38:57,040
But for me, at the end of the
day, this all lies at the feet

1401
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:00,400
of Ervil Lebaron.
Certainly the table had to be

1402
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:05,680
set for him, but he seemed more
than willing to go down this

1403
01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:09,040
road if he had to.
Let.

1404
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:13,640
Let me ask you this, Dwayne.
Why did you write the book?

1405
01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:23,400
When I in the book, I said why?
Because I share grandkids with

1406
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:28,720
Ervil, and those grandkids are
negatively impacted because

1407
01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:34,840
they're Ervil's descendants.
Everybody judges anybody that is

1408
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:38,240
associated with Ervil in any
way, even if they weren't even

1409
01:39:38,240 --> 01:39:41,880
born yet with that kind of
nonsense.

1410
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:44,560
Gotcha.
That's one of the reasons.

1411
01:39:45,400 --> 01:39:49,560
The other one, we are the people
that made Ervil.

1412
01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:52,720
Why?
Because we went along with it.

1413
01:39:52,920 --> 01:39:56,920
How come Warren Jeffs got away
with all his nonsense?

1414
01:39:58,120 --> 01:40:00,200
Our prophet.
Right or wrong, our prophet.

1415
01:40:00,200 --> 01:40:06,040
He's got the keys.
Parker's brains Parker integrity

1416
01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:10,640
and follow the Prophet because
he just talks to God, right?

1417
01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:15,480
No, I think there's, I think
that they're there and again

1418
01:40:15,480 --> 01:40:18,000
that's a product of that one man
doctrine, right.

1419
01:40:18,760 --> 01:40:22,560
Yes, it is.
And and we've got and and that's

1420
01:40:22,560 --> 01:40:26,160
been the one thing within Mormon
fundamentalism certainly since I

1421
01:40:26,160 --> 01:40:30,440
joined it that sometime has been
the most disturbing to me is

1422
01:40:30,440 --> 01:40:33,920
this idea of and to be fair,
it's in the LDS church too,

1423
01:40:33,920 --> 01:40:35,440
right.
They're they're a one man

1424
01:40:35,440 --> 01:40:39,960
church.
But that's been probably the

1425
01:40:39,960 --> 01:40:42,960
most disturbing part of the
whole Mormonism thing is just

1426
01:40:42,960 --> 01:40:48,440
how quick a lot of us are to
park our well, as you said, your

1427
01:40:48,440 --> 01:40:52,120
integrity, your common sense,
and just go with what the one

1428
01:40:52,120 --> 01:40:55,560
man says.
And I find nothing in the

1429
01:40:55,560 --> 01:40:59,880
writings of Joseph Smith that
would suggest that that was the

1430
01:40:59,880 --> 01:41:03,840
end goal, was a one man thing.
I see Joseph being much more

1431
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:06,640
inclusive with passing that
authority along.

1432
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:13,280
Well, that was the whole idea of
the Anointed Quorum is it should

1433
01:41:13,280 --> 01:41:20,280
have a church, if you will, of
priests and priestesses who had

1434
01:41:20,280 --> 01:41:23,600
the authority to do whatever
needed to do anywhere in the

1435
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:26,440
world, right?
Right.

1436
01:41:26,440 --> 01:41:29,800
That's the second anointing that
all of those people were going

1437
01:41:29,800 --> 01:41:31,440
to get.
Right.

1438
01:41:31,560 --> 01:41:35,400
Once they qualified, absolutely,
absolutely.

1439
01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:38,160
But they took it away.
Yep.

1440
01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:41,560
Well, Dwayne, this has been
awesome.

1441
01:41:41,560 --> 01:41:45,040
I can't tell you how excited I
am to get this one released.

1442
01:41:45,440 --> 01:41:49,960
And we'll we'll get it released
the same week that that that new

1443
01:41:50,120 --> 01:41:52,560
Hulu series comes out.
OK.

1444
01:41:53,200 --> 01:41:56,440
Because I think there's some
important things that have to be

1445
01:41:56,720 --> 01:41:58,840
talked about here.
And I I feel like we've talked

1446
01:41:58,840 --> 01:42:03,840
about a lot of them real quick.
The name of the book is God's

1447
01:42:03,840 --> 01:42:06,440
Executioner.
The the Tragic story of Ervil

1448
01:42:06,440 --> 01:42:08,760
Lebaron.
Where can they find the book,

1449
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:11,200
Dwayne?
On Amazon.

1450
01:42:11,600 --> 01:42:15,400
On Amazon, Barnes and no
neighbor supposed to have it,

1451
01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:18,200
but I don't know if anybody
bought any from them.

1452
01:42:18,640 --> 01:42:26,600
Just go to Amazon, there's a
ebook, there's a paperback,

1453
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:30,240
there's a hardcover, and in
another week or two there'll be

1454
01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:32,920
a Spanish version.
Fantastic.

1455
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:35,680
Fantastic.
Bye everybody.

1456
01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:09,520
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.