Episode #105: A Conversation W/Sara Decker Host Of "From The Dust Podcast"

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For many years, if you were a
Mormon who wanted to practice

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Mormonism outside the mainstream
LDS Church, you could bet that

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you would encounter pushback.
Well, today we live in a

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different world where that
pushback, for the most part, is

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now gone.
Now this is all well and good,

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but we who enjoy being able to
live a Mormonism more authentic

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outside the LDS Church owe a
debt of gratitude to those older

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generations that preserve that
truth for us.

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The best way I think we can
repay this debt is to now come

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out of the shadows and let our
voices be heard.

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Today I sit down and have a
conversation with a woman trying

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to do just that.
Sarah Decker comes on to talk

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about her new podcast, From the
Dust.

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We talk about her experiences in
the restored gospel of Jesus

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Christ, how and why she made the
decision to separate from the

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LDS Church where she got the
idea to make a podcast, and what

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the podcast will cover.
Along the way, we stopped to

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discuss a wide range of gospel
principles.

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Stick around for a fascinating
conversation on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse.

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To become and raise men and
women of virtue and character is

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a Herculean task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com, go to the
bottom of the page, search out

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the blog post, and order your
copy.

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Today I can bear personal
testimony from personal

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experience that this is an
invaluable tool to help you

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raise men and women of virtue
and character.

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OK, just a couple of quick
announcements here.

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If you're looking for a place to
attend sacrament meeting and

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don't know where to go, I want
you to reach out to me.

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Me and other stand ready to help
you find a spiritual home,

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whether that's a new church, a
gathering spot of independence,

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OR even if you just need a soft
place to land for a time to

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learn how to have sacrament
meeting in your own home.

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Myself and others stand ready to
help you find that place.

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All you got to do is just drop
me a line at

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mormonrenegade@gmail.com and
we'll quickly reach out to you

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to help you find the place you
want and need to be next.

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I have felt for a while now that
the sisters haven't had a good

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place to go to have their
questions answered without a

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bunch of dudes creeping around.
To fill this need, my wife,

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Tanya has set up a Facebook
group just for women to talk

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about questions about
fundamentalism.

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The name of that group is Mormon
Fundamentalism for Women.

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Now, just a warning, if you're a
dude thinking about trying to

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jump on this site, I'm going to
give this to you in my best Liam

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Neeson impression.
I have a certain set of skills

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and I'll find you and I will
publicly mock you endlessly

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without mercy for many, many
weeks.

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So whether you're a
fundamentalist woman seeking

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sisterhood or a woman
investigating fundamentalism,

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this place is for you.
Again, the name of that Facebook

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group is Mormon Fundamentalism
for Women.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Sarah, how's it going this
morning?

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Good.
Really good.

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Nice.
So you and I talked previously

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for a little while and you've
just started a podcast called

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From the Dust and I I always got
to ask this question.

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Why did you want to start a
podcast?

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I really didn't, is the simplest
answer.

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I I am a mom of seven and that's
just been my whole world for so

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long and so God really asked me
to start this podcast about I

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guess three or four months ago
now.

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And I spent the last few months
really searching with myself to

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to find the courage.
And so I started this podcast

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because God put it on my heart
and he wouldn't let it go.

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It was like a calling that I
couldn't just say, hey, no

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thanks.
And and I didn't want to say

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that anyway, 'cause, you know,
if God offers you an

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opportunity, it's important to
take the time to really think it

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out, you know?
And so I took a few months to

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really ponder it and pray about
it and figure out why, like, why

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would God want me to do this?
And so here I am and I'm really

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looking forward to it.
The answers he gave me, I got me

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excited about the podcast.
Honestly.

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I'm really excited to see where
it goes because I see his vision

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even in little parts now and
it's really exciting.

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Yeah, couple things.
I can resonate there.

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And I've told the story 100
times, so I won't tell it again.

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But there's no use in arguing
with him.

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I mean, like I I tried.
I tried really hard.

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And if if there's one thing
about about our Father in Heaven

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it's that I've noticed if you're
trying to follow him, he he's

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he's relentless sometimes,
right.

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And if he's asking you to do
something he's he's relentless

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and you'll get no peace in your
discipleship until you just kind

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of like, fine, I'll do it.
I in a large you know the other

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thing he asked about you know is
is why I stopped asking those

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questions a year ago.
I'm like, whatever, It doesn't

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matter.
You may or may not tell me.

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I mean, I'm probably God's most
petulant child, right?

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So I've just gotten to this
point where I've thrown my hands

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up in the air and just went,
whatever you want, fine, I'll do

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it so I I can identify with
that.

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So you were, you were born
Mormon, right?

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Mainstream LDS Church.
I was, yeah.

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Both my parents joined the
church in their lives, and so I

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was born and raised in the in
the LDDS church, yeah.

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OK, now I'm gonna ask a question
here that that might be a

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little, I don't know, I, I
always hate using labels, but

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I'm, I'm going to ask it anyway.
So do you consider yourself more

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of a fundamentalist now?
Do you consider yourself still

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mainstream?
What Where are you at in that,

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in that Mormon journey, right.
Because I think for so long as

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when at least in my own mind,
there was only kind of one way

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to do the Mormon thing, right,
which was through the LDS

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Church.
And the more I read and the more

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people I met, I realized that
there is an entire scale of

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Mormonism, right?
And it goes from inactivity.

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But you still identify all the
way up to to, you know, beyond

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fundamentalist, I guess, in some
point.

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So.
So where what would you classify

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yourself as?
Free I That's awesome.

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I think that's probably the best
way, you know, a couple months

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ago, well, I'll backtrack a
little bit more than that.

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About a year ago I was reading a
book and in the book the

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gentleman had said that God had
told him to stop attending his

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church and that everyone thought
he was had lost his way and but

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he really hadn't and he still
had this really strong

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relationship with God, just God
had asked him to centralized his

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learning with his family and to
stop handing it over.

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Does that make sense?
And so he was leading his family

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and I thought that was so brave
and interesting.

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But what I didn't expect to
happen is what happened is that

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the Spirit spoke to me in that
moment and said this is what I

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am at.
We'll ask of you at some point.

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And at that point in my life I
had not even considered that

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really.
Like in my mind, I thought,

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well, the Millennium is when
that will happen.

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Like we'll, I'll just kind of be
doing our own.

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We'll be following the Lord.
But maybe it won't be under a

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specific umbrella church wise,
you know, a specific label.

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It'll just be under Christ.
Because in the Bible, you know,

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it talks about the Church of
Christ, the Church of Satan.

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And so I've always for, for
quite a few years now, have

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thought about it in that way
that we'll just be under Christ.

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And so I didn't think that would
happen until the world had

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fallen apart, until Christ had
come.

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And so that was a really big
surprise for me to hear that.

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And it took the last year, it's
been a full year since I had

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that revelation.
And in the last year, I've

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received a lot of guidance and
counsel and peace explanations.

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I guess we'll say a a lot of
answers to my questions as to

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why, like why would I even be
asked to do this?

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And so one of the things that a
couple months ago I was shown

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was that the church I was in was
a beautiful, like structure that

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helped me to like rise towards
God.

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It showed.
It was like a scaffold that kind

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of showed me the way.
But as we really learn at the

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feet of Christ, what I was
shown, it was like that.

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There is no ceiling on that
scaffold and it just opens and

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turns into this beautiful.
It was just a light.

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It was like light that came up
the scaffold and then just blew

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open and it was huge and
expansive.

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And that's what God told me was,
was where he wanted me.

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So this, the scaffold was good
if you want.

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But at his learning at his feet
was what is above that scaffold

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and was expansive.
And I was told a couple years, I

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guess it was about a year ago,
that the things that God could

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do and the things that I would
learn and what was possible with

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him, I couldn't even comprehend
at the time.

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And even a year later, I know
that's true.

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I've learned so much in the last
year that I never would have

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even thought was a possibility
before then.

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That's awesome.
So, so, like, I'll tell you from

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from my perspective, right, some
things happen in my life.

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Some people dabble in
fundamentalism before they jump

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in.
I jumped in like full, like I

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went, no, we're not going to dip
a toe in.

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We'll just go in full force,
which was both good and bad.

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But often times when when people
begin to leave the church,

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whether they go fundamentalist
or whether they go free, as you

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said, which I really dig that
there there's or they go

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inactive or stop believing.
There's a moment at which a lot

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of us come to where where we go
OK something's maybe off or not

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quite right in the LDS Church
and and then we we we take a

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hard turn somewhere and and go
back towards those those older

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teachings or those more inspired
teachings I guess.

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But for you, it sounds like you
you came to a point to where and

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and I've come to be in this camp
myself, the older I get and the

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more time I have where it wasn't
so much saying, well, the LDS

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Church is wrong or the LDS
Church is off track so much,

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it's more about OK, there's more
out there, right.

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And so you've used that
scaffolding as you put it for a

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while and and again correct me
if I'm wrong here, but you've

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come to a point to where there's
more and that more might lie

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outside of the the structured
LDS Church.

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Is that a is that a good
assessment?

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I think that's fair and I'll
explain a little bit on that if

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that's.
OK.

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For years I was probably like a
lot of people and had dreams

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about school, going to school,
and it was often elementary

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school.
And as I got older, the dream

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was repetitive.
I was going to school and I was

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graduating.
I was going to school and I was

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graduating and every time it was
like, I've been here before, why

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am I back?
And this dream happened over and

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over and over again.
And seriously, I'm like, at this

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point I've been to elementary
school 10 times and I've

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graduated.
Like even my peers in the dream

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would tell me, aren't you a
little old for this?

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Like why are you still here And
not in a mean way just a curious

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way.
And I'm like, well, I guess I

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can do better.
I guess I can learn more.

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Like each time I come I I do
even better.

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00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,600
So it's great.
And so for years I kept

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00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,920
thinking, why do I keep having
this dream?

225
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,280
You know, because it wasn't just
like, I went to school in my

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00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,040
underwear dream like we might
have when we're kids.

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It was a specific message.
You know, I was graduating

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00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,560
elementary school.
And yet I kept going back and I

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00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,400
kept getting better grades
specifically.

230
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,600
Like, my grades were better
every time I went back.

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00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:37,560
And so I remember at some point
I was praying about what that

232
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:43,120
dream meant, and I had it again.
But for the first time, I

233
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,920
actually graduated.
I packed my bags and I went away

234
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,560
to college.
And I was sitting in a college

235
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:56,720
lecture hall with a friend, and
I don't know this friend on

236
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:57,360
earth.
I don't.

237
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,480
I don't believe I didn't
recognize her as anyone I knew.

238
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,080
I just knew her, like my my
spirit knew her.

239
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,480
And we were friends and we were
so excited about the lecture,

240
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,320
the person who was coming to
teach us.

241
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:16,760
And we were talking about him.
And I knew that teacher was

242
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,920
Christ, that Jesus himself was
going to come teach us.

243
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:27,480
And I was so excited and I woke
up and that was the first moment

244
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,320
that I really learned that a lot
of what we have is really

245
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:38,160
elementary school.
And it's just there is so much

246
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,840
to learn.
God is not just like us and

247
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,040
nicer, you know, like there is,
there is so many levels in

248
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,960
between US.
And like God, who created the

249
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,400
world, you know, he's a creator
and he can do so much more than

250
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,000
we could ever imagine.
And we're not just gonna like

251
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,760
jump there from our basic
understandings we have here in

252
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,480
different religions.
And so that was kind of the

253
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,760
beginning of that journey, and
that was probably four years

254
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,760
ago.
And that was really the

255
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,720
beginning of understanding that
scaffold and the light that I

256
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,960
received just a few months ago.
Do you really understand that

257
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,920
there was, there was more and
that Christ wanted to lead that

258
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,040
work?
Really, he has shown me that

259
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:30,520
it's his joy that he gets to
walk with us, hand in hand on

260
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:35,000
that journey to help us ascend
to that place where we're ready

261
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:40,520
to take on that next level.
Gotcha, gotcha.

262
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,080
So let let me ask you this, I
got, I got two follow up

263
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,240
questions here to to that little
part one.

264
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,080
The first one, is this what
happened four years ago that led

265
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,200
you to that?
Was it just that revelation that

266
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,200
you received in talking to that
other gentleman?

267
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,800
What do you mean?
You said about four years ago

268
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,760
you you started to go on this
journey of becoming a free

269
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,520
Mormon, so to speak.
What, what was the catalyst for

270
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,720
that?
Was it just that dream, or was

271
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,240
there other things happening as
well?

272
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:27,720
Before that there, honestly,
it's probably been like a God

273
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,120
tends to show me how he's
peppered my life with like, the

274
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,200
stepping stones that bring me to
where he wants me to go.

275
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,400
And that includes knowledge.
And one of the things that I was

276
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,600
told this morning during my
scripture study was that there

277
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,440
are certain things that I know
and there's certain things I

278
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,560
have been kept in ignorance
about until the time was right.

279
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,360
And I think that's the best way
to put it.

280
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,360
So there's been a lot of
stepping stones along the way.

281
00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:02,440
And so during 2020, early 2020,
I don't remember exactly when,

282
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,480
but I know it was that year.
I was pretty upset at the

283
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,080
prophet who I loved.
Like I had had revelation that

284
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:15,200
God had called him, like I had
love for him, but I was upset

285
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,480
that he really wasn't giving a
lot of guidance to the people

286
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,600
during such a tumultuous,
emotional, fearful time.

287
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,840
You know, the world was in so
much fear and I thought he'd be

288
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,000
was the perfect person to kind
of calm that beard.

289
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,440
And I was a little frustrated
that he wasn't.

290
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:43,280
And so at that time I was like,
you know, he told me he was a

291
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,600
prophet, but what if, what if
it's not his church?

292
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:53,960
Like, I need to ask that.
And so I was asking all these

293
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,640
questions and getting all these
answers, and I was told that it

294
00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,440
was his church.
And so in a in a beautiful,

295
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,680
lovely vision, that also showed
me how imperfect it was.

296
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,120
Like, not every imperfection,
obviously, but he showed me how

297
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:11,360
people are called of God and
they're given a calling within

298
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,680
his organization, yet they
assume they know what to do.

299
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,640
And so they do things that are
not God's will and they hurt

300
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,000
people.
And how much sadness that brings

301
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,320
God that his children are in
pain and are hurting because of

302
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:33,120
the pride filled choices that
his, that his people make in his

303
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:37,800
organization.
And so kind of showed me the

304
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,040
pain that it causes people but
the but the joy he has when they

305
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,080
do finally humble themselves and
turn to him.

306
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,000
And so he showed me and then he
said but it still is my church.

307
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,160
I mean, regardless of all that
bad, the bad stuff that you see,

308
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,000
it still was his.
And I and I had a lot of peace

309
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,760
in that and it gave me a lot of
peace for a long time.

310
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,320
And so when I had that dream, I
kind of saws it more.

311
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:09,200
Like at that time I looked at it
as here was the bubble of the

312
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,880
church and there are those who
are learning.

313
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,440
How do I explain?
But there was a lot of things in

314
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,000
the gospel, even in the
scriptures and the things that

315
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,960
Joseph Smith taught that we
aren't, we don't talk like

316
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,000
really openly about.
And I had a an issue with that.

317
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,800
But when I prayed about it,
really what I was taught was

318
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:41,000
that there are certain things
that God wants people to seek

319
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,680
out and figure out for
themselves.

320
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,920
He wants them to go on a
spiritual journey with him.

321
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,800
He wants them to take him as
their guide and follow the Holy

322
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:48,480
Ghost.
He wants them.

323
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:54,400
He wants us all to get good at
listening to the Spirit and

324
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,240
taking the Spirit as our guide
and seeking him, seeking God,

325
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,680
seeking Christ.
And he wants to take us on that

326
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,600
journey.
And so there were certain things

327
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,360
that at that time I just was
kind of told, well, some of this

328
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:10,000
is for people who are true
followers, you know, true

329
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,200
seekers of truth and and greater
light and knowledge.

330
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:19,600
And it's because you know, when
we when we seek it, we show him

331
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,040
that it's important to us.
And so that's really at that

332
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,800
time that's kind of just how I
felt like there was those who

333
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,440
and I before I was just that
person kept showing up to church

334
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,680
and I kept expecting to learn
more there.

335
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,200
And it was like going back to
elementary school and expecting

336
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,680
to learn more at elementary
school.

337
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,960
Well, no, they only teach
certain things in elementary.

338
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:45,240
I'm not going to Start learning
learning higher knowledge in

339
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,040
elementary school.
Well, if I just keep going back.

340
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,440
And so that's kind of at that
time I just realized that there

341
00:21:54,440 --> 00:22:01,680
was those who were good people
and just kept going back and and

342
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,480
maybe like me, was hoping to
learn more.

343
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,680
But finally God kind of ushered
me into understanding more

344
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:11,400
things and and teaching me about
different things.

345
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,640
And really it started with a
prayer.

346
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,520
I prayed and asked to know Jesus
Christ better and he started

347
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,960
teaching me a lot of really cool
things.

348
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,040
You know, that's that's so
fascinating because I remember

349
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:32,760
going through the same thing
where in fact I remember it very

350
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,440
distinctly.
It's when I I left the church

351
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,080
for good.
I was in a leadership position

352
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,240
and this was right before the
pandemic.

353
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,800
And I remember I was it was for
for a couple of weeks I had felt

354
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,160
this way I was just in front of
in front of the mirror.

355
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,720
So let me back up.
I'd felt this way for for

356
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:04,680
probably a few months actually
and I was just in the mirror

357
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:10,120
shaving on Sunday morning and it
it's not like I was unhappy but

358
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,520
I was kind of unfulfilled if
that makes sense.

359
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,320
Right.
And I remember I'm just shaving

360
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,760
and and I'm like, why?
I'm getting ready for my

361
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,440
meetings and I'm thinking to
myself why am I feeling this

362
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,760
way?
I I'm work in the program,

363
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:24,720
right?
I am.

364
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,480
I'm fulfilling my calling.
I'm hanging out with quote all

365
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,200
the right people.
Right.

366
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,560
All the other leadership folks.
I am, you know attending the

367
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,040
temple once a week.
I'm paying my tithing.

368
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,640
My family is absolutely awesome.
What what is going on?

369
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,840
Why?
Why is this so so unfulfilling

370
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,560
to me?
And I remember it was just a

371
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:53,480
flash.
Right.

372
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,880
And and the Lord it was it was a
stroke of revelation in that

373
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,560
moment where I felt the Lord say
I taught you a bunch of stuff

374
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:07,360
like a decade ago and you
decided that because things got

375
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:11,440
hard and you got hurt you were
just going to try to forget all

376
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,560
those things I'd LED you to and
you were going to go back.

377
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,040
He's and and it was very
distinct.

378
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,640
He's like, you tasted the fruit,
There's no going back.

379
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,000
And again, it's not.
When when I left the LDS church,

380
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,880
I wasn't mad at the church.
I enjoyed my time in the church.

381
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,160
I felt like they gave me so
much.

382
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,920
But I think there comes a point
at which churches, sometimes,

383
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,600
not all of them, but sometimes
they, they, they switch from

384
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,440
doctrine to dogma.
And in that dogma, you now have

385
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,280
a a.
You're going to stay in this

386
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,000
lane, right?
And you're not going to veer out

387
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,400
of this lane.
And correlation can be a

388
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,080
beautiful thing because it helps
us all stay on the same page,

389
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,560
but it can also be restrictive
and it can also be somewhat

390
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,240
conformist, right?
And if you want to ponder some

391
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,600
of those other things that that
maybe some of the early boys

392
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,760
talked about and and whatnot,
that's not necessarily always

393
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,760
smiled upon inside of a church,
'cause that dogma begins to be

394
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,800
the the forerunner.
So as you begin to think about,

395
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:31,360
Oh no, I'm gonna, I need to do
this.

396
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:35,520
But this means I might have to
outgrow this scaffolding, as you

397
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,280
put it.
I think that's a beautiful word.

398
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,240
I shouldn't say outgrow it, but
but start reaching for something

399
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,400
more.
How scary was that?

400
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,440
Because you've been raised in
this church your whole life,

401
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,720
right?
I mean, this is the and and

402
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,120
Mormonism is unique in the sense
that it's not just a church,

403
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:55,640
right?
It's not enough to show up to

404
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,280
church and throw a couple of
bucks in the collection plate,

405
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,680
listen to a sermon, and then
call it good for the rest of the

406
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,520
week.
This is different.

407
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,480
This Mormonism is different in
the sense it's got its own

408
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,280
language, it's got its own
culture.

409
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,000
It it not only encompasses your
Sundays, but you have all these

410
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,080
other activities and now you're
about to leave that behind.

411
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:22,680
How spooky was was that to you?
It was terrifying, really.

412
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:28,480
That's why it took me a year.
God really had to help me

413
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:35,480
overcome a lot of those fears.
I, you know, I grew up in a

414
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,640
very, like, rambunctious, loud
home.

415
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:44,720
I had eight siblings.
And so I would go in my room and

416
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,680
I'd read my scriptures and that
was my safe place.

417
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,560
But outside of my bedroom, where
I, you know, would read my

418
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,880
scriptures every day, I I had
church that was my home.

419
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,280
And that's really what I I felt
like at church on Sunday.

420
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,680
That's when I went home.
That's where I had peace.

421
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:07,760
And so I think most of my life I
had really conflated the gospel

422
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:13,320
with this organization, this one
organization that holds all the

423
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,360
truth.
And so I really thought that for

424
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:22,160
a long time.
And it took a lot of splitting

425
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,240
hairs spiritually, that God kind
of directed me through that.

426
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,400
He held my hand and walked me
through it, you know, and helped

427
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:35,520
me understand that truth was not
possessed solely by an

428
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:42,160
organization.
And that they have their place

429
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:48,440
and were a beautiful thing, but
that he wanted more for me.

430
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:55,440
And you know, one thing I want
to mention is I recently moved

431
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:01,080
to Missouri in the United States
and God taught me a lot of

432
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,480
interesting things when I first
was going to move here.

433
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:09,280
And one of those things was that
all of the churches were part of

434
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,400
the body of Christ, that they
all had a purpose and had a part

435
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,760
of his plan.
And he uses because he can use

436
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,840
anything for good.
And so every group and every

437
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,840
organization was part of that.
And so I don't, I see that

438
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,920
revelation he gave me that this
is my church, you know, years

439
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,880
ago that that was the beginning
of the revelation when I moved

440
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,880
here to Missouri.
And he said, well, they all are.

441
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:39,840
Right.
No, no, that makes perfect

442
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,200
sense.
I flirted with the idea an idea

443
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,560
and and this is, look, I this
comes from the book of Dave, so

444
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,200
take this with a huge grain of
salt.

445
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,960
But I I flirted with the idea
here for the last few months of

446
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,960
'cause we get into this idea of
you know, which church is quote

447
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:05,600
the right church, so to speak.
And one night I just that have

448
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,040
this idea well maybe they're
they're they all have something

449
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:14,040
and maybe it's not necessarily
about which one is right but

450
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,800
what covenant you're willing to
keep right.

451
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,000
And not that one is better than
the other that's just where you

452
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:29,680
are at that moment And and I I
think it comes down way more to

453
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:36,080
covenant than it does to dogma
or a proclamation of this one's

454
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,120
better, this one's higher or
whatever.

455
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,960
I do think it maybe comes down
more to covenant.

456
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,600
So I like what you said there
about about their all his right.

457
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,280
I do think that there might be a
universal Church of Christ so to

458
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,240
speak where anyone who wants to
come into the Savior can access

459
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,080
that and if that's through an
organization that's that's valid

460
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,760
too.
I will say this though, I think

461
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:07,480
at some point we we in our walk
as disciples of Christ, we have

462
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,320
to get to a point and it's
something that the evangelicals

463
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,840
talk about a lot and I think
it's true and I think it's

464
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,560
beautiful and they talk a lot
about having a personal

465
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,560
relationship with Jesus Christ a
lot more than Mormons do.

466
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:27,360
And and I think that is so vital
because if if we rely solely on

467
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:34,000
a an organization we're gonna
always be left a little short if

468
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,200
if we're really seeking Christ,
we gotta go to him and there's

469
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,760
no intermediary there he's
willing to talk to you, whoever

470
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,160
you are.
So.

471
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:49,760
So that resonates with me a lot.
At what point when when you make

472
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,440
that what was the moment like
when you made that final

473
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,800
decision of OK, I guess I'm.
I guess it's just me and the

474
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,880
Lord here so to speak.
What was that like for you?

475
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,680
Well, finally peace finally
having.

476
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,160
Yeah.
And that happened really

477
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,120
recently, just a couple weeks
ago.

478
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,720
Really.
OK.

479
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,800
And maybe it's too soon now.
And if it is we we can table

480
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:29,560
this question, but when you're
looking back and how you felt

481
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,120
before versus how you feel now,
what's the difference?

482
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:42,880
I think before I felt more of a
necessity to do certain things

483
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,160
more out of fear and a belief
that, like I was a bad person.

484
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:54,600
Like I I couldn't possibly
achieve the level of goodness

485
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,200
that would qualify me for
heaven.

486
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:07,400
And sorry, it just makes me cry
thinking about it.

487
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:14,880
Because now, now I understand
far greater the love that God

488
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:21,000
has for me and that my Savior
has for me and that He has work

489
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:27,160
for me to do.
He believes in me, I think some

490
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,760
of the spiritual gifts that I
haven't really helped.

491
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,520
And him, his journey to help me
kind of discover those has been

492
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,920
a huge blessing because as I've
experienced those things and I,

493
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,440
he's blessed me with confidence.
Confidence that I can feel the

494
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,160
spirit, confidence that I know
that it's from God confidence.

495
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:51,200
He's really helped me to
recognize when when Satan is

496
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,320
trying to get in, even when it's
just a little small feeling, and

497
00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:02,440
how to take a moment and
separate him from my space again

498
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,480
and just bring bring the spirit
back.

499
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:10,440
And so he's trained me a lot.
And in that training really that

500
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:16,360
it's been, I've found so much
more peace and love for myself

501
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,760
and it's been a beautiful,
beautiful thing.

502
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,040
That's awesome.
And and again what what you just

503
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,080
talked about there about about
the Savior teaching you things,

504
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,880
I don't think that is meant to
be had through an organization

505
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,480
to be honest with you.
I think that's that personal

506
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,960
relationship that I was
referring to that that we can

507
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,600
certainly get the foundational
stuff through an organization

508
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,160
and I think church organizations
do a great job.

509
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,880
The LDS Church does a great job
of passing those those

510
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:56,520
foundational principles along.
But there comes a point at which

511
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,320
the Lord wants something more.
He He wants a relationship with

512
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,640
you just as much as as you
desire one with him, maybe even

513
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,719
more.
And and that can't really be had

514
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,920
through a church.
Not because churches are bad,

515
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,280
but because it's a personal
thing, right?

516
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,920
A church can't tailor everything
to a certain person.

517
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,080
I remember when when I came,
when when I got to this point of

518
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,120
OK, I just need to follow the
savior, wherever that is.

519
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:36,120
And it happened again recently
where it it's all of a sudden,

520
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,360
like, OK, all these options are
on the table, right?

521
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,400
And and so I shouldn't say
options.

522
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,639
I love the word you used free
because now you're free to

523
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:49,679
pursue those things.
There's nobody saying that

524
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:53,639
question is off limits.
There's nobody saying you can't

525
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,520
pursue this line of thought.
Those doors have been kicked

526
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,160
down and you can go for it.
So while it's scary, it's also

527
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,320
kind of exhilarating because now
the only thing holding us back

528
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,440
is ourselves, right?
There's there's no hierarchy to

529
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,360
say we don't ask that question,
we don't address this topic.

530
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,440
This has been settled or any
other thing.

531
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,880
We can now just go and pursue
truth wherever it lies.

532
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,400
And and I I find your testimony
of that to be absolutely

533
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:31,560
beautiful.
So let let's let's move on to

534
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,720
the podcast here a little bit.
You said you've been feeling

535
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:42,080
this for a couple of months now
and how many episodes you got

536
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:48,400
under your belt.
I've done one interview.

537
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,440
That's awesome.
That's awesome.

538
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,960
That's all it takes.
You just got to you got to start

539
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,160
with the first one, right?
That's that's awesome.

540
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:04,000
So what, What did the what kind
of things did the Lord tell tell

541
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,040
you about the podcast?
What what?

542
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,640
How do you see the podcast in
terms of its content?

543
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,680
What kind of things you want to
cover?

544
00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:20,920
That sort of stuff.
Yeah, he told me a few things

545
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,880
about it.
I it want he wants it to be a

546
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:32,280
place of gathering for any
believers to ponder questions

547
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,560
that are, like you said, not
allowed to be talked about at

548
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,800
church and maybe with their
peers.

549
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,320
I know how that is.
Growing up in a specific

550
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,800
religion, my whole life, most of
my friends are also in that

551
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,680
religion.
And so there's certain things

552
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,320
that I am was very uncomfortable
talking to other people about

553
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,400
that God was teaching me and I
wasn't reading about them in

554
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,360
other books.
I wasn't listening to podcasts.

555
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,160
I wasn't like out there delving
into all these different things.

556
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:06,000
God was just taking me to the
scriptures, teaching me, and

557
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,480
there was all of these beautiful
things, but it was so hard

558
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,040
because I didn't have anyone to
talk to.

559
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:12,480
And so I want people to not be
alone.

560
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,920
And that's what he wants.
He wants people to have a safe

561
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,760
place to to come and look at
these topics and to understand

562
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,480
that fellow believers are
allowed to tiptoe outside of the

563
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,840
box of their religion and that
there's beautiful truth outside

564
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,200
of the box of their religion.
And so really it's just a a

565
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,720
place of growing faith.
One thing that he taught me a

566
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:42,240
couple months ago was that
gatherings of like minded

567
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:46,120
believers was meant to be a
place of lifting of each other's

568
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,080
faith.
You know, when we gather, we can

569
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,160
share stories of moments of
revelation.

570
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,960
We can share our moments where
God was there for us and

571
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,800
answered our questions.
And whatever it may be, it's

572
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,560
supposed to lift everyone in the
room.

573
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,360
You know, those bearings of
testimony and stuff are supposed

574
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,160
to help broaden people's faith,
help grow their faith, help draw

575
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:14,880
them closer to God in Christ.
And instead, sometimes religion

576
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:20,240
has put a lid on that box and
has and has put God in a box.

577
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:23,640
And God doesn't belong in a box.
And there's so much more he

578
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,280
wants to teach us.
And so that's really what the

579
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:32,760
podcast is supposed to be in a
place for people to share and be

580
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,200
lifted.
And I hope that I there's

581
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,160
supposed to be a community of
some sort.

582
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,800
I don't know what that looks
like, even if it's just online,

583
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,080
just for people to talk, because
we need a place for people to

584
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,080
have the open exchange as well,
so that they can ask questions

585
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,720
and and have people that aren't
trying to destroy their faith.

586
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,520
That's The thing is sometimes we
we're interested in a topic but

587
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,320
we're afraid to read the book by
that person because they don't

588
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,240
believe in God or they don't
believe in Christ or and we

589
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:12,320
don't want to have that
knowledge brought to us from a

590
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:17,160
place of lacking faith.
And so we want it to be a safe

591
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,000
place of of like minded
believers and and seeking truth.

592
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,360
And so that's really what the
podcast is meant to be.

593
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,560
When you say, when you say safe,
a safe place for people to go

594
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,640
define safe, is it just?
Is it just the opportunity to

595
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:38,840
ask questions?
An opportunity to ask for

596
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,160
questions, but more than that a
place where people aren't

597
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,120
condemning each other for what
they believe.

598
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,960
Really it's just my hope is that
it's just a place of respect and

599
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:57,120
growth mentality of like there
is more and you have something

600
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:02,480
valuable to give.
And I I want to hear it and I am

601
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,000
I I may not accept everything
that you have to say.

602
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,800
I don't, I don't expect that at
all.

603
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,000
The people that I interview, I
hope they have some really

604
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,680
interesting different ideas
because that is exactly how we

605
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,840
all grow.
And I may not receive all of

606
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,240
that is true and it may not be
time for that.

607
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,400
And so that's kind of The thing
is, it's if you if you spend the

608
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,080
time reading, then God can take
those things you've read.

609
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,640
And bring it to your heart in
that moment where he wants to

610
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,800
teach you that it's true.
And I found that in the

611
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:35,840
scriptures.
You know, you read your

612
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,760
scriptures and sometimes God
brings that verse into your

613
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,920
recollection at a moment where
you need to hear it so he can,

614
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,960
he can solidify that in your
heart.

615
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,960
And so I just trust that things
will be brought to people when

616
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,480
they need to hear them.
And and I hope that it can

617
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,840
really be a place of respect of
people's beliefs and journeys

618
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,480
and and no topic being left on
the table.

619
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,920
Like let's let's talk about
anything, you know, I want to

620
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,000
hear your journey with something
because my journey has been

621
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,240
different.
You know, there's different

622
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:16,920
things that I needed to learn in
my life that have helped me

623
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,600
along the way.
And so I've deep dive into some

624
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,640
topics that you may never have.
And so I want to hear what you

625
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,800
have to say because your deep
dives have been different than

626
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,200
mine.
So it's just mutual respect is

627
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,080
what kind of what I mean by
that.

628
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,120
Safety and the ability to just
honor each other's experiences

629
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,320
and hear it and be lifted
together.

630
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:44,680
No, I I think that's awesome.
I will say this, get ready for a

631
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,560
little bit of pushback because
you're going to get it.

632
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,200
I'm I'm doing right now
intermittently.

633
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,320
I'm doing a series on just kind
of the branches of of of Mormon

634
00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:01,280
fundamentalism and I had I still
count this person as a friend

635
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:07,560
but I don't know if they do but
I had done a few episodes that

636
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,320
really pushed the boundaries on
some things.

637
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,400
Right now one you should know by
the name of the podcast.

638
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,120
I don't care too much for
boundaries and I'm going to

639
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,040
overturn some tables from time
to time.

640
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,600
And one was on race in the
priesthood where I made my

641
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,960
position clear at the end of two
episodes that hey, I I think

642
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,280
everyone deserves to be prayed
about and asked if they should

643
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,760
receive the priesthood
regardless of race, right?

644
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,480
I don't think priesthood is
something we should be passing

645
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,960
out to every white man Willy
nilly, right?

646
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:44,760
It's not a program.
It's God's authority.

647
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,160
So let's make sure we're vetting
it and and that the person who's

648
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,720
going to be carrying the vessels
of the Lord are are have that

649
00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:58,320
servant's heart and I don't care
what color you are let's let's

650
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:03,160
go go in that direction that
fired up this person.

651
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,360
Anyway I did a second episode
where I talked to somebody whose

652
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:11,640
church had a really they they
had beliefs that that I was like

653
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,320
that's out there right.
Like I couldn't get behind

654
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:19,520
really well this person caught
this again and really took me to

655
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,240
task saying you know these
people don't deserve to be

656
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:23,920
heard.
They don't deserve to have their

657
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,720
beliefs explored.
And I'm like, hold on, they're

658
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:30,680
they're not talking about
hurting people.

659
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,480
They're not talking about, you
know, keeping anyone under their

660
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,920
thumb.
Some of the teachings I do find

661
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,800
problematic, but not from a
sense of they're they're they're

662
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:46,360
hurting anybody now, right?
And and if that's the case, then

663
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,560
let's hear them out.
Let's what they see what they

664
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,880
have to say.
I'm more concerned with

665
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,640
reconciliation than I am with
winning, right.

666
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,560
So often we talk to people and
we just get to this point where

667
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:03,000
we want to win.
And and certainly I think that

668
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,240
that in certain circumstances
there may be a time and a place

669
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:08,360
for that.
But I think more than that, more

670
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,760
times than not, we need to seek
for reconciliation.

671
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,280
But be prepared, 'cause you're
going to get some of that.

672
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,960
But here's the beautiful thing.
You.

673
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,280
You again.
I keep going back to this word

674
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,880
with you, but free, right?
You answer to nobody.

675
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,000
Now you get to do that.
Have you thought about how you

676
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,840
might deal with some of that,
that pushback?

677
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,160
Not really.
The only thing that God's kind

678
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,120
of told me is to not read the
comments.

679
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,160
He's told me that multiple
times.

680
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,920
So 'cause I'm a comment reader.
I love the comments, not the

681
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,080
negative stuff because I I'm not
into that.

682
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:53,960
But I do enjoy reading funny
comments that people post below

683
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,920
things.
But he's told me very, very

684
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,040
clearly multiple times to not
read the comments.

685
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,240
So that is the only direction
I've had about that so far.

686
00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:06,080
I figure I'll deal with it as we
come and just prayerfully.

687
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,120
And that's The thing is if I'm
praying about who to have on my

688
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,280
podcast and I'm interviewing
people, I'm led to interview.

689
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,280
I just have to trust that
there's a purpose for that

690
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,400
interview and that it's going to
help someone.

691
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,400
And you know, one thing I've
learned in life is sometimes

692
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,800
people are in our lives just to
teach us how not to do

693
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,040
something.
You know, it's like they're

694
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:33,200
getting it wrong and they're
there to teach us that that is

695
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,600
wrong.
And that is definitely not how

696
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,920
we want to handle it and how we
want to do things.

697
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:42,200
And so I don't know God's
purpose for all things.

698
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,640
All I can, all I can do is trust
and move forward.

699
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,480
So.
That's the plan.

700
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,960
Yeah.
No, I that's that's excellent.

701
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:55,360
So I don't let me rephrase this.
Well, no, I think I can say

702
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,080
this.
I don't read the comments.

703
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,880
When I had to respond to my
friend who was was saying some

704
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,920
stuff, I had another friend
reach out to me going you may

705
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,840
want to read the comments on
this one because my normal MO is

706
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,920
posting Ghost, right.
I just throw it out there and

707
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,120
then I am out, right?
Because when it comes to the

708
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,600
comments, there's only two
things that can happen, right,

709
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,520
as far as I'm concerned.
One is, is that people really

710
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,760
like it and they just tell me
how good of a job I'm doing or

711
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,640
or think, you know whatever,
right?

712
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,600
And then that becomes an ego
boost.

713
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,480
I don't need that in my life,
right?

714
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,800
I I know I am a flawed person.
The closer I grow to the Savior,

715
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,640
the more his light continues to
illuminate my flaws.

716
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,120
So I I An inflated ego is not
something I need.

717
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:49,240
The other thing that can happen
is, is someone's gonna say

718
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:52,280
something that's just gonna flat
piss me off, and then I'm gonna

719
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:57,520
get into a Facebook conversation
where where nothing's gonna

720
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,560
change, right?
Facebook and social media is the

721
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,880
most ineffective way of
communicating with another human

722
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,480
being.
You don't get social cues.

723
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,640
You don't get, you know, the
response from from facial, you

724
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,000
know, face to face conversation.
And so I'm like either of those

725
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,280
I just don't need, right.
I don't need an ego boost and I

726
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,480
do work really hard not to be
pissed off a lot, right.

727
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,640
I mean there's a reason I lift
weights and and do jiu jitsu and

728
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,120
that's so I can get all that
out.

729
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,640
So, so yeah, no, I think you're
right.

730
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,400
Posting Ghost.
And if it's something that needs

731
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,120
my attention, I have enough
friends out there who are like,

732
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,520
OK, you need to pay attention to
this 'cause now they're calling

733
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,560
your character into into
question.

734
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,120
So like one of it was, you know,
hey, why are you giving this guy

735
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,880
time?
You're are are you helping to

736
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,240
deceive people?
And that's what really

737
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:54,840
instigated that.
So unless they're attacking my

738
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,320
character, I'm like no posting
Ghost, I'm done.

739
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,240
I'm out, I'll start
conversations and then I'll

740
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:06,680
leave.
So I want to talk about the name

741
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,920
of the podcast here a little
bit, because I find that to be

742
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:12,840
interesting.
You, you're calling it from the

743
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,720
dust, right?
Yes.

744
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:21,360
Why'd you choose that name?
There's many layers to why that

745
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,320
name is the one that drew my
attention.

746
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,040
Initially.
It was because there are other

747
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,840
books that have been found and
translated and I believe her

748
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:40,880
scripture.
And so initially I was told the

749
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:44,400
the podcast was going to be to
explore those books as well.

750
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,000
And so that'll be happening at
some point.

751
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:52,640
I'm not sure how that will look.
But all things are brought to

752
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,720
light and that includes the good
things.

753
00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:00,480
You know, in the Book of Mormon,
it says that God speaks to the

754
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,680
all of his children in the North
SE the West and upon the Isles

755
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,920
of the sea, and he asks them all
to write.

756
00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:13,560
That's in the Book of Mormon.
And I it's a wonderful chapter.

757
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:18,440
And I think that was really
helpful to me to realize, like

758
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,200
when everyone always talks about
the truth coming to life, but

759
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,160
they always talk about it as all
the bad things.

760
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:29,640
And so many people who are good
faithful followers of God have

761
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:34,040
taken the time to write and it
is from the dust because they

762
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,360
have passed on.
And so we are hearing from

763
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,920
people from far, long ago every
time we open our scriptures and

764
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:47,120
there will be so many more good
books that come forward.

765
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,720
And and the purpose of those to
help all the children of the

766
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:53,880
world know that they've never
been forgotten by God.

767
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,880
You know, it's not just a 12
tribes of Israel.

768
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,480
You know, the world isn't only
for them.

769
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,200
You know, it's it's for all of
us.

770
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,440
And God is aware of everybody,
no matter where they are in the

771
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:12,160
world.
And so I think God wants all of

772
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,080
his children to know how much he
loves them.

773
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:19,960
So that is a part of that from
the dust, the dust of past

774
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,200
voices, of followers of God that
hopefully will be brought more

775
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:28,920
and more to light in the coming
days and years and and

776
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,280
everything.
And so that's part of it also,

777
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,960
you know, from dust thou art,
from dust to dust thou shalt

778
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,160
return.
And and it's for me.

779
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:41,320
The name is also a reminder that
I am of the dust of the earth.

780
00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:46,640
God created the earth.
He has so much more to teach me.

781
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,920
I am from the dust, you know,
like I know so little compared

782
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:58,000
to everything he has to offer.
And so part of it there is just

783
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:04,640
a reminder of of who I am and
and who God is and where he can

784
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,280
take us.
And because we're not meant

785
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,040
actually to just return to the
dust and stay there, you know,

786
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,320
like we are children of God, we
have a a soul and we will

787
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,320
ascend.
And so He's not waiting for us

788
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,440
to die, to help us to ascend,
you know, He wants us to grow

789
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,360
and learn and and gain the
knowledge you know.

790
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,240
Everyone always says knowledge
is the only thing you can take

791
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:29,640
with you when you die.
He wants us to continue to

792
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:31,720
pursue knowledge all the days of
our life.

793
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,800
No, that's awesome.
You know, I've, I've thought a

794
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:43,960
lot about this over the last
probably three or four years and

795
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,920
it's part of the reason I love
the doctrine of RE baptism so

796
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,960
much, right?
So often if if you're from the

797
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,600
the mainstream LDS church, you
think baptism's a once in a

798
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,800
lifetime thing, right?
You go in when you're 8 or in my

799
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,680
case 1718.
I can't remember, but it's a

800
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,400
once in a lifetime thing where
you go in, you get baptized and

801
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,720
then you never do it again.
Maybe you go to the temple and

802
00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:12,880
you do baptisms for the dead,
but you yourself were never

803
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,440
baptized again.
When I was starting to look into

804
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:21,040
the early teachings of the
church and re baptism came up, I

805
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:25,120
jumped at the opportunity, cause
for a long time I had flirted

806
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:30,480
with this idea that I think we
as humans, through this mortal

807
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,720
journey that we're on, we die
many deaths.

808
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:41,480
So certainly when I first became
a Mormon, the guy that was, you

809
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,720
know, really good at drinking
and just being an overall

810
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:52,600
dirtbag, that dude died, right?
He, he he went away.

811
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,400
His memories are still
contained.

812
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,800
I can look back and learn from
his mistakes.

813
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:04,320
But he's passed away now and I
think that kind of growth

814
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,680
inevitably keeps doing that.
And I think the name of your

815
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:13,120
podcast is is, at least for me,
is a beautiful reminder to that,

816
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:19,520
that we have opportunities to
let let that old person die.

817
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,560
Because as we continue to grow
and to learn and to change,

818
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,240
inevitably there's something.
There's a part of our old selves

819
00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:33,920
that die along the way and
someone new was born until we

820
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,040
become the person that God
intends us to be, until we fill

821
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:43,600
that measure of our creation.
And so I think as as certainly

822
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,080
I've taken the opportunity for
re baptism at times and as I

823
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:51,920
felt the need to do that, it's
been a beautiful ceremony in

824
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:56,040
recognition of that of of
letting those old, that old part

825
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,680
of me die.
You know those maybe those those

826
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,560
toxic traits or those toxic
beliefs.

827
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:07,240
Let those perish and then from
the dust come up again and be

828
00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:12,320
something new.
I want to ask you about the,

829
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:17,200
the, the, the part right under
the main title which is lifting

830
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,280
each other up.
How do you see this podcast

831
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:24,040
doing the two things you talked
about, community Mormons.

832
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,240
We're a strange group of folks,
right?

833
00:54:26,240 --> 00:54:29,560
Like we're not happy so much on
our own.

834
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,160
Some something happens when we
become Mormons and we're like we

835
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,240
need to associate with people
and so how do you.

836
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,400
I I think it's inherent in our
quest for Zion, right?

837
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,760
Certainly we can have Zion type
families, but it's really hard

838
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:46,960
to build Zion if you're just on
your own.

839
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,200
And I think even independent
Mormon fundamentalists are now

840
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,520
coming to that conclusion.
So how do you see the podcast

841
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,200
developing community, What does
that community look like?

842
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,720
And then explain the the second
part of of the name of the

843
00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:04,720
podcast lifting each other up.
Explain those to me.

844
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,760
Sorry, I'm trying to decide
where to take this answer.

845
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:18,080
The community I see as being the
family that you don't have

846
00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:25,920
around you to to grow with and
to arise with towards Christ.

847
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,360
I mean, I really believe that
everyone can see Christ, whether

848
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,520
in spirit, in their dreams, in
the flesh.

849
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,560
Like, I don't know what God has
in store for everybody.

850
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:40,280
But if they're seeking him, like
I know it's possible to be in

851
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,200
His presence.
And you probably have been more

852
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:48,000
than you know, because he shows
up and loves on, you know, and

853
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,240
sends you peace and comfort and
guidance.

854
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:53,320
I mean, the atonement is such a
beautiful thing because he walks

855
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:54,080
with us.
He doesn't.

856
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:56,920
He doesn't allow us to endure
anything alone.

857
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,040
That is one beautiful gift of
the atonement is he has

858
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,480
literally walked it all with us.
We don't walk through anything

859
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,240
alone.
And so the more that we can

860
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:14,280
share God and our Savior Jesus
Christ with the world, the more

861
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,080
good and hope and peace that can
be spread.

862
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:24,880
And I think that we, the the New
age like ideas that a lot of

863
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:29,160
people are talking about our our
souls know some of it's true,

864
00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:30,320
right?
And so we're going to.

865
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:35,400
So a lot of people are getting
drawn certain things that are

866
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:42,280
true, but then may lose their
faith in Christ and may lose the

867
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,840
things that they do know is true
as well.

868
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,160
Because what if we don't have
any of that?

869
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,400
What if, what if those who are
following Christ don't talk

870
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,040
about these things and we
continually ignore them forever?

871
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,360
Then the people whose soul,
their spirit knows it's true

872
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,040
that little bit of information
that we don't have because we've

873
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:06,120
created this box, they're going
to go somewhere else.

874
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,360
And then what if they lose the
most precious truths.

875
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,280
And so part of that for me is
that this is a safe place to

876
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,400
maybe exit the box but also
maintain your faith.

877
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,800
And so that's kind of the
community and the lifting

878
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,760
because just as a as a group we
all rise.

879
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:28,440
We can each be that stepping
stone.

880
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:34,240
Like what I see in when I
envision it is a ladder

881
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,000
ascending to heaven.
And each there's all of these

882
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,200
people holding on to that ladder
and reaching down to help the

883
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:46,480
next person up.
And that's when we share and

884
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:51,560
when we talk about the things
that God has taught us and we're

885
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,680
able to testify the things that
we know are true.

886
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,800
We're able to be that that hand
that reaches down to someone who

887
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,400
is wandering and they're lost
and helps lift them higher

888
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:08,480
without them losing the most
beautiful parts, which is God,

889
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,360
you know, like God and Christ.
And it's also beautiful.

890
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:12,680
And I don't want people to lose
that.

891
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:19,440
And so I think one of the things
that God told me, I was watching

892
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,880
Joan of Arc.
And in a week we watched Joan of

893
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,080
Arc, and then we watched
Harriet.

894
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:29,640
And it's this Harriet.
The second one is when he told

895
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:31,360
me this.
I was watching that.

896
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,200
And she's, you know, helping so
many people escape slavery.

897
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,200
And years ago I was told that I
would help the Underground

898
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:41,000
Railroad in the modern, the
modern day Underground Railroad.

899
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,480
And I had no idea what that
meant for for a lot of years I

900
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,640
thought that meant that when the
world fell apart, or when people

901
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:52,040
were going to get forced to take
back seeds or whatever the world

902
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:57,080
like whatever crap the world was
going to blow up into, I could

903
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,040
have be a safe place for people
to come and know that they're

904
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,120
even hideout.
So like in in the houses I've

905
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,120
had, I've even had like empty
space behind a wall that like,

906
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,080
so people can even have
somewhere to go, like literally,

907
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,320
physically.
And it's so funny to me now

908
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:18,520
because I look back on that and
I'm like, that was me trying to

909
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,560
fulfill a calling because God
had told me, you know, like

910
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:21,960
you'll help with the Underground
Railroad.

911
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:23,480
And I didn't know what really
what that meant.

912
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,080
And so he took me on this
journey, even through the all of

913
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:30,120
that, to this moment where I'm
watching Harriet and she's

914
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,320
saving all of these people from
slavery.

915
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:38,720
And I'm like, OK, Heavenly
Father, like, this seems so

916
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:43,600
brave and so incredible, the
work that she did.

917
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:48,240
How, like, do I have a calling
like that in any kind of way?

918
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,560
Is there something that I can do
to help people?

919
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:56,840
And he told me that is what your
podcast is supposed to be.

920
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,720
It's supposed to be a safe exit
from slavery.

921
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:05,240
And and I know we already talked
about it.

922
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,080
Like, I love the church I grew
up in.

923
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,080
Because of the faith that it
implanted in my heart, you know,

924
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:12,720
and helped teach me.
And it was this beautiful

925
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,600
scaffold.
But at the same time, why did it

926
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,040
take me a year to leave?
Why did it take me a year?

927
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,640
Because I was terrified of what
all of those people were going

928
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:27,520
to think of me.
And so was IA slave to fear?

929
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,880
Was IA slave to an organization
that I was afraid was going to

930
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:34,920
reject me?
Yeah, I really was.

931
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:41,400
And so he told me like, this can
be a safe exit from this.

932
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,920
The fear and the the boxes that
people have put themselves in to

933
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:50,440
help them know that they can
they can escape and they can be

934
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,800
free.
That's awesome.

935
01:00:55,400 --> 01:01:06,080
I remember there to do what
you're doing now in not just the

936
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,200
podcast, but leaving the church
and seeking higher things.

937
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:15,800
You have to do it and and this
is spooky, and I remember

938
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:21,160
feeling this way when you're
starting to pursue truth, you

939
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:23,240
have to do it with reckless,
abandoned.

940
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:29,320
You have to be able to set your
sights on that North Star which

941
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,040
should be the Savior in His
teachings, the restored

942
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:37,880
teachings that we get from him,
and then pursue it with

943
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:43,240
reckless, abandoned.
I remember feeling somewhat the

944
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:46,440
same way you did, right?
Not fearing the process of

945
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:53,360
seeking truth, but the process
of disappointing people, right?

946
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:57,600
That process cause 'cause we do
make those relationships right.

947
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:04,800
I made it with with a guy who
baptized me in the LDS church.

948
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:10,600
I had it in in another group
that I recently left where where

949
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,080
you form those relationships.
But all of a sudden things

950
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,040
happened that you can't get
behind.

951
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:23,080
You can't make work 'cause
you've received your answer from

952
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:27,200
God himself that says this is
wrong, you can't do this.

953
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:33,560
And so you you the thing that
holds us back is this fear of

954
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:35,560
disappointing them because you
love them, right?

955
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:40,120
It's not like we have to worry
about about the Mormon police

956
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,640
coming in and kicking down your
door and black bagging you and

957
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:45,400
taking it to a re Education
Center.

958
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,960
That's not what they do.
They're not dangerous, but it's

959
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,400
that fear of disappointing
someone because we love them,

960
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,840
right?
And so to do what it is you've

961
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:59,800
recently done and and will
continue to do reckless,

962
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:01,920
abandoned.
Just throw it on on in the

963
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:06,760
Lord's time and be like I'm out.
One of the things I love is, is,

964
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,400
are are some of the early
founders of of the United States

965
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:13,520
and George Washington's my my
favorite.

966
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,320
He's my hero.
I'll never be anywhere near what

967
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:20,160
Washington is.
But this was a guy in the 1700s

968
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:23,640
that stood like 6 foot two which
was just unheard of and in

969
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,480
battle he rode a White Horse,
right.

970
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:32,280
And so he's the biggest target
out there and he just goes with

971
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,960
that, reckless, abandoned, and
somehow is protected.

972
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:40,000
And I think as we do these sorts
of things, we have to adopt that

973
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,440
mentality of, you know what, the
Lord's got it.

974
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:46,880
He's asked me to do something.
I just need to go do it and then

975
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:53,400
damned be the consequences.
I've always said the truth will

976
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,160
make you free, but it's going to
make you miserable.

977
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:59,160
First.
And and I really believe that

978
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:02,880
because growing's not an easy
process, right?

979
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,760
Growing hurts, whether that's
physically or spiritually and

980
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,000
emotionally.
There's times I'm at the gym

981
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:12,960
where I'm like, this is stupid,
Why am I here?

982
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,240
I don't hurt like this when I
just eat a cheeseburger and

983
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:19,880
watch football.
But I know the end result is

984
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:25,120
better than where I am at now.
And so how did you overcome that

985
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,200
fear?
Right 'cause I think that's what

986
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,280
holds a lot of people back from
from filling the measure of

987
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,240
their creation is is that fear?
How did you get past that?

988
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:37,920
This episode of the podcast is
brought to you by Deseret

989
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,560
flag.com.
I've said this before and I

990
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,040
really mean it.
Mormonism isn't just a religion,

991
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:44,680
it's a culture.
As such.

992
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,520
It has its own vernacular and
practices, but also its own

993
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,680
symbols.
And those symbols become even

994
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:51,920
more important and prominent
when you look back into our

995
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:53,720
history.
Perhaps one of the most

996
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,680
recognizable symbols of
Mormonism is the Deseret flag.

997
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:00,280
This is the flag that I use as
cover art in this podcast.

998
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,680
This was also used for a good
chunk of time during the Pioneer

999
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:06,360
era in Utah.
Now, today we have people who

1000
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,360
want to replace the existing
Utah flag with some other

1001
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,400
progressive monstrosity.
Well, I think it's damn past

1002
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:15,120
time that we start pushing back
here a little bit in Utah.

1003
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:18,160
Our friends at Defending Utah
are here to help you with that.

1004
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:21,280
Now, if you go to
deseretflag.com, you can now

1005
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,280
purchase your own Deseret State
flag.

1006
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:26,920
It's time here that we start
making ourselves known and join

1007
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:29,720
the resistance against those who
seek to rewrite our state's

1008
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:33,240
history.
Go to deseretflag.com or check

1009
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,880
out the link in this episode's
page show notes and get yours

1010
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:38,880
today.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

1011
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:41,720
Renegade podcast?
Well, good news, we're on

1012
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,160
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

1013
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:46,360
from.
The first one, the Slightly

1014
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,600
Rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

1015
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:51,560
those pesky commercials getting
in the way.

1016
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,680
For those who want a slightly
more in depth experience,

1017
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,640
there's the Stirring It Up
package where you can hear ad

1018
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,600
free audio, ad free video and
transcripts.

1019
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:04,480
Finally, for those who want to
go full Renegade, that package

1020
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,160
is available too, where you can
get everything in the previous

1021
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:11,200
two packages, plus an extra show
where myself and Ben Winfield

1022
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,360
breakdown the news of the day
from a very Mormon point of

1023
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:16,400
view.
You will also get exclusive

1024
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,200
access to Renegade chat, and on
there you'll be able to talk to

1025
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:22,680
others about the show or
whatever topics are on your

1026
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:25,520
mind.
Go to Patreon today and get your

1027
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:30,360
exclusive content.
Years of really hard things that

1028
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,960
helped me to be really brave in
the face of really hard things.

1029
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:40,720
And I mean, there was, I kept
waiting for life to get easier.

1030
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:42,760
And instead it got harder every
year.

1031
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,160
It got worse and worse.
And I was like, wait a second.

1032
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,240
You said it was going to be hard
for a couple years.

1033
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:50,600
It's been 10.
Like that's a decade.

1034
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:52,680
When it.
Since when is that a couple, you

1035
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:58,200
know?
And so I just went through a

1036
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:03,080
lot.
And so it felt a lot like that,

1037
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:07,120
but it was like through all of
that, you know, the church and

1038
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:10,840
my faith was my the Band-Aid,
you know, the warm blanket, the

1039
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,040
hug that I always had there with
me.

1040
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:16,520
And so then the next step with
God saying, OK, I need you to

1041
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:21,640
stop relying on the arm of flesh
and I need you to just follow

1042
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:26,080
me.
So it was just like that safety

1043
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:31,440
blanket he was then taking away
and it was really hard and but

1044
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,360
it was the same process.
The same process of learning to

1045
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,840
trust in him was the same.
It's the same process.

1046
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:40,240
It's just another step, you
know, And I and I and I can see

1047
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:46,600
how I am prepared for this
moment because of that, because

1048
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:49,520
of the years of learning to
trust him, years of going

1049
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:55,360
through tremendous upset and
trauma at times and different

1050
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:59,320
things.
That helped me to have the kind

1051
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:03,600
of confidence in the Lord, to
know that he could actually get

1052
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:07,120
me through this and he could
actually carry me and it would

1053
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:08,760
actually be beautiful at the
end.

1054
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:14,400
You know, I had no idea a couple
years ago when life was the

1055
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:18,560
hardest it has ever been, that a
year or two later it would be

1056
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:23,720
the most beautiful and the most
fun and the most exciting.

1057
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:28,600
Because like you said, even when
he asked me to do the podcast,

1058
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:34,359
he told me you can choose to, to
not do it.

1059
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:35,840
I mean, obviously I'm not going
to make you.

1060
01:08:36,319 --> 01:08:40,840
And it was just like this
feeling this, knowing that I

1061
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:44,240
knew I didn't have to.
I could choose not to.

1062
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:49,359
If I wanted to, I could say no.
But I also knew along with that,

1063
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:52,439
that I would be choosing to stay
small for the Lord.

1064
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,800
I would be choosing to stay
small for my own life like I

1065
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,640
had.
One of the other things that I

1066
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:04,359
really believe is that we choose
the major aspects of our life

1067
01:09:04,359 --> 01:09:09,800
before we're born.
And so I I really believe that I

1068
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,399
chose this.
But I knew that I couldn't do

1069
01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:16,000
this podcast until I did the
rest, you know, But until I

1070
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:22,160
walked through that fire to get
myself right here to where I

1071
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,479
would be a new person in Christ.
I would be a new person the way

1072
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:31,840
I trusted him, the way I was
willing to believe in his, the

1073
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:36,520
the magic of what he can do in
inside of us and in the world.

1074
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:43,319
And so it's just, I've changed a
lot.

1075
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:46,160
But he's helped me that whole
way.

1076
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:48,760
He's prepared me.
Gotcha.

1077
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:52,640
You, you, you hit on something
that that that I think is super

1078
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:55,360
important that I, I struggle
with constantly.

1079
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:58,520
And that's keeping kind of that
eternal perspective, right?

1080
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,480
I think there's something about
the human condition that keeps

1081
01:10:01,480 --> 01:10:06,800
us very myopic, right?
Keeps us in this mode of tunnel

1082
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:09,200
vision, right?
And in that when when we have

1083
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:13,880
that tunnel vision, not only do
we tend to put limits on what we

1084
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:18,080
can do, but in a lot of ways we
end up end up putting limits on

1085
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:24,560
what God can do.
You talk about really honestly

1086
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:28,200
believing that that you were
called to this, which I can

1087
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:33,320
totally resonate with.
Like with the podcast, it's

1088
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:36,120
another full time job that I
don't really see a penny from.

1089
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:45,240
I think I might be +200 bucks at
this point, but so so it it

1090
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,000
takes kind of that eternal
perspective.

1091
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,760
How do you keep that when times
are tough, right?

1092
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:52,800
It's one thing to do it when
everything is great and

1093
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:55,040
everything seems to be flowing
just right.

1094
01:10:55,480 --> 01:10:59,360
It's another thing to keep that
eternal perspective when the

1095
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:01,040
whole world seems to be crashing
in.

1096
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:03,440
How do you do that?
Because I I get a feeling that

1097
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:08,000
that that kind of eternal
perspective along with with

1098
01:11:08,480 --> 01:11:12,880
personal revelation, is really
what carried you through some of

1099
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:14,560
those darker times you were
talking about.

1100
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:19,520
Well, it was during those dark
times that I learned really what

1101
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:23,280
eternal perspective really was
and what carrying that with you

1102
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:30,600
really meant.
And so I how do I just think

1103
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:33,440
about your question, how do I
keep the eternal perspective?

1104
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:38,760
You know, it was a lot of work
at first where because you, like

1105
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:41,480
you said, were really myopic.
And so I would see my problems

1106
01:11:41,480 --> 01:11:46,440
right in front of my face.
And one time I live near this

1107
01:11:46,440 --> 01:11:50,480
place called Adam and Diamond
and I felt prompted to go over

1108
01:11:50,480 --> 01:11:53,480
there and it's this beautiful
mostly park.

1109
01:11:53,480 --> 01:11:56,680
There's some walkways and stuff,
but it's a place that LDS Church

1110
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:01,280
owns but is believed to be the
where Adam dwell.

1111
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:07,080
And so anyway, so I go over
there and I'm.

1112
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:08,920
I'm prompted to get on this
rock.

1113
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:11,640
There's this big stone rock and
it's kind of right before this

1114
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:14,760
major drop in the in the the
land.

1115
01:12:15,480 --> 01:12:18,520
And I climb up on that rock
feeling a little silly.

1116
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:20,720
And I say, OK, what am I to
learn?

1117
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:23,000
Why do you have me standing down
this rock?

1118
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,000
And he said look, And I looked
around and it was such a

1119
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:31,400
beautiful view and you could see
so much from up there, this

1120
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:34,200
whole valley and all the trees
beyond.

1121
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:35,760
And it had such an expansive
view.

1122
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:41,000
And he said from if you were
down there, all you would see is

1123
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:42,840
the corn in your face.
Like if you're standing in that

1124
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:46,480
cornfield, all you would see is
the corn right there on your

1125
01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:51,600
face all around you said.
But isn't it beautiful up here?

1126
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:54,160
This is my view.
This is my view.

1127
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:58,960
I see it all.
This is my expansive view while

1128
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:03,480
you stand there in the cornfield
with it in your face, you know.

1129
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:11,560
And he's like, so trust me.
And so for a while, I wanted to

1130
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:15,440
understand how the idea of
trusting in the Lord wasn't just

1131
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:19,200
allowing someone else to control
you, right?

1132
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:21,160
Because I'm like, well, I can
understand you're like, well,

1133
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:24,040
trust the Lord, follow what he
asks you to do.

1134
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:26,120
And I'm like, well, if I'm just
praying all the time and asking

1135
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,840
for guidance and he's telling me
what to do, how is that not

1136
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:34,040
just, like, controlling, right?
And maybe that seems silly, but

1137
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:36,120
I had a lot of friends at the
time that were like, oh, God is

1138
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:39,480
so controlling and whatever.
And so I really was asking like,

1139
01:13:39,480 --> 01:13:41,720
OK, so I can understand that
point of view.

1140
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:45,400
So how do I, how is it not, you
know, if I'm just giving away

1141
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,800
all my agency to someone else?
Like, is that what God wants to

1142
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:53,120
just control us?
That doesn't make sense to me.

1143
01:13:53,920 --> 01:14:04,200
And so as I craved about that,
what I learned was that we made

1144
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:07,880
a choice of the kind of life
that we would want to lead.

1145
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:10,880
We we wanted to learn certain
things in this life.

1146
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:12,680
We wanted to do certain things
in this life.

1147
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:16,440
And he was there to guide us and
help us to accomplish those

1148
01:14:16,440 --> 01:14:20,520
things.
And So what I learned is that he

1149
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:25,400
is like the gatekeeper of our
future that we want.

1150
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:29,280
So in this flesh, we don't know
what that is because we have

1151
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:33,400
this veil, but he does.
He knows who we are.

1152
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:38,360
Our angels know who we are, our
the, the people that are sent to

1153
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:42,200
teach us.
And spiritually, you know, like,

1154
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:48,520
they know who we are.
And so they're not controlling

1155
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:49,440
us.
They're trying.

1156
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,560
It's like a little kid who
doesn't know how to walk and

1157
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,320
they don't know that they're
going to be this adult someday.

1158
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:57,120
And you're there to teach them
and guide them and hold their

1159
01:14:57,120 --> 01:14:59,080
hand.
And that's really what the

1160
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:05,720
Savior is for us because he, he
has been there when we decided

1161
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:08,000
all of those things.
And so if he knows who we want

1162
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,840
to be, he knows the best way for
us to get there.

1163
01:15:11,440 --> 01:15:16,040
So he's just asking us to trust
him and knowing who we are and

1164
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:19,120
knowing where we want to go.
So it's not controlling at all.

1165
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:24,240
It's he's just like so selfless.
He is so selfless on so many

1166
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:27,160
levels.
The Savior is such an incredible

1167
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:29,200
person.
The more he teaches me about

1168
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:33,720
what he does and the things that
he's there for us, I'm just

1169
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:39,640
blown away at how how much a
part of our lives he is and all

1170
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:43,200
the different ways that he helps
us along the way.

1171
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,440
And so anyway, so that actually
really helped me.

1172
01:15:47,440 --> 01:15:50,440
And eternal perspective, I
guess.

1173
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:54,600
You know, the understanding that
there's major things that we did

1174
01:15:54,600 --> 01:16:00,520
choose helps, but also
understanding like that God is

1175
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:03,960
prepared for every eventuality.
You know, when I was going early

1176
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:09,120
on in my divorce process because
I'm divorced, is that I

1177
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:12,400
wondered, you know, why did God
tell me to marry this person if

1178
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:13,880
this was going to be the
outcome?

1179
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:18,920
Come on, I can think of a better
outcome than this.

1180
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:21,080
It's the one I hoped for the
whole time, you know.

1181
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,800
And so why would God have me
marry this person if this was

1182
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:27,200
going to be the end of it, you
know?

1183
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:31,000
And what he told me is that
there was, he said, Sarah,

1184
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:35,440
there's a hundred options.
Like, you know, he had 100

1185
01:16:35,440 --> 01:16:37,360
different options of who he
would choose to be.

1186
01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:40,800
And this is just the path he
chose, he said, But don't worry

1187
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:44,840
because I prepared for all 100
pets, right?

1188
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:47,800
And I want to get too caught up
on that hundred.

1189
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:50,160
I think he just wanted me to
know that there are so many

1190
01:16:50,440 --> 01:16:52,560
options for our lives that we
can walk.

1191
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:55,920
And because we have agency, you
know, like even if we have that

1192
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:58,400
life plan, agency always is
there.

1193
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:03,520
And so he chose a certain path
that ended up this way.

1194
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:10,600
And that's just the way it is.
But God has prepared my life for

1195
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:12,760
this already.
It's not like it was a surprise

1196
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:16,680
to him.
And so I guess there's just been

1197
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,560
a lot of different teachings
along the way that he has

1198
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,720
brought into my understanding
that have helped me to not worry

1199
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:28,320
so much about the here and now.
You know, sometimes I start

1200
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:31,760
worrying about how I'm going to
do this repair on my house or

1201
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:33,760
something.
No, something just human.

1202
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:38,920
And you just kind of go, well,
Sarah, how did you get it fixed?

1203
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:40,800
Last time?
I was like, well, not anything I

1204
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:43,680
did.
I mean, I put on elbow grease,

1205
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:48,440
but you know, I, he's the
miracle worker that makes it all

1206
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:51,160
happen.
And so he just reminds me a lot

1207
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:58,440
that I don't have to give much
for him to to move mountains.

1208
01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:02,120
And he's prepared.
You know, I I would worry a lot

1209
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:05,760
about early on in my divorce
process with like court hearings

1210
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:08,800
or whatever that was going on.
I would have so much anxiety

1211
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:11,400
about it.
And I remember one time you sold

1212
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:13,920
told me Sarah there is nothing
you can do to mess this up.

1213
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:21,360
Just stress.
And that was really helpful.

1214
01:18:21,480 --> 01:18:28,240
It was really helpful to know
that I because he kept telling

1215
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:30,280
me like you're a good person.
You are.

1216
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:35,880
I love you.
You have done well and there's

1217
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:44,040
and so trust knowing that he
trusted me to be me and to make

1218
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:46,920
decisions and to move throughout
this life.

1219
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:53,560
And he's not he's not keeping
this tab of all the things I've

1220
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:56,480
done wrong.
You know I think sometimes we

1221
01:18:56,480 --> 01:19:02,520
think about like all these
little things that that at least

1222
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:04,000
for me, I was really hard on
myself.

1223
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:06,440
I would think about oh I, you
know I said something in the

1224
01:19:06,440 --> 01:19:08,760
wrong tone.
I'm going to hell.

1225
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:12,520
You know like so hard on myself
for something really small.

1226
01:19:15,440 --> 01:19:19,640
And he's really taught me that a
lot.

1227
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:22,720
Those things are so small.
You know they're just they're so

1228
01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:25,440
small.
And he loves us so much and it's

1229
01:19:25,440 --> 01:19:28,680
and it's important and that he
trusts me to be kind and he

1230
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:36,440
trusted me to to do life and
that I'm I'm where I'm supposed

1231
01:19:36,440 --> 01:19:38,920
to be.
And so I don't know if that

1232
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:41,080
really answers your question,
but I.

1233
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:46,320
No, it it does, it does a a
couple thoughts I had on that

1234
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:50,520
and you just gave something
really spiritual and eloquent.

1235
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:53,040
Now I'm about to relate it to
something somewhat British.

1236
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:57,680
I played a lot of football, I
mean a lot of football.

1237
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:01,840
I played in high school, got
married early, didn't play

1238
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:04,640
college, but I ended up playing
kind of a semi pro team that

1239
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:07,600
would go around the the
Intermountain W We'd go up to

1240
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:12,360
Washington and Montana and down,
you know, Northern Utah and

1241
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:16,640
Oregon and Northern California
and.

1242
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:23,560
I played fullback and I remember
we got this, this new coach and

1243
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:29,680
we were, we were practicing and
we just didn't like the playbook

1244
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:31,400
right.
It was something different than

1245
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:36,560
this team had ever done before
and he said something that that

1246
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:40,200
stuck with me.
He's like you just got to trust

1247
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:46,240
the process.
You can't get to, you know, just

1248
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:50,440
trust the process.
And it was a a ground based

1249
01:20:50,480 --> 01:20:52,720
offense, which means we were
just running the ball.

1250
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:57,760
Now I'm not fast, I'm not
shifty, but I'm big, right?

1251
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:01,000
And so as a full back, my job
was to take the ball and crash

1252
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:04,040
right into the line and try to
push it as hard as he could.

1253
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:07,680
And the first quarter sucked all
the time, right?

1254
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:10,320
I just, I feel like all I'm
doing is just ringing my own

1255
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:13,680
bell, 'cause I just keep hitting
that line over and over and over

1256
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:16,400
and over.
Then the second quarter comes

1257
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:19,120
around maybe we start getting 2
yards or three yards.

1258
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:23,720
And then by the time we're well
into the third quarter, it's

1259
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:28,160
78910 yards.
And all of a sudden that

1260
01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:35,160
persistence just paid off.
And and so why we, we need to

1261
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:39,400
keep that eternal perspective
and that would be looking ahead,

1262
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:41,320
right?
That is just what?

1263
01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:43,720
What is it I'm supposed to learn
from this?

1264
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:46,080
What is it I'm supposed to
understand?

1265
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:50,080
But also this, this walk with
Christ, this whole thing.

1266
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:55,040
You had better be tenacious.
You had better glom onto this

1267
01:21:55,080 --> 01:21:58,040
and understand this is what it's
about.

1268
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:00,040
And it's going to feel like a
grind.

1269
01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:03,200
It's going to feel like you're
hitting a wall and not gaining a

1270
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:06,800
single inch.
But at some point, if you stay

1271
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:09,400
tenacious, right?
And this is where I think those

1272
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:12,680
little things come into play in
our walk with Christ.

1273
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:16,360
The prayers, the the reading,
the Scriptures, those sorts of

1274
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:19,760
things.
That's that's trusting the

1275
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,440
process, right.
And I think all those things can

1276
01:22:22,440 --> 01:22:26,720
continue to add to that eternal
perspective that we need to keep

1277
01:22:27,360 --> 01:22:31,200
in order to move it forward.
You said something else that

1278
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:34,280
really struck me that that, you
know, he's not.

1279
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:39,480
So often we, we view God,
especially God the Father, as

1280
01:22:39,480 --> 01:22:44,720
this this guy who's just waiting
to bring the hammer down on us,

1281
01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:47,120
right?
First time you screw up, here

1282
01:22:47,120 --> 01:22:52,560
comes the hammer, right?
As I grow closer to God, the

1283
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:55,760
more I find that is not an
accurate representation of who

1284
01:22:55,760 --> 01:23:00,440
he is.
I've never shared this before

1285
01:23:00,440 --> 01:23:06,040
publicly, like I'm about to, but
I remember about a year ago I

1286
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:11,320
had a dream that I died.
And I remember I was in this

1287
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:15,440
room and I knew it was my final
judgement.

1288
01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:23,800
I knew that it was it was time
and I saw the Savior come in the

1289
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:27,120
door and he sat down at this
table and he just smiled.

1290
01:23:28,440 --> 01:23:32,160
And I'm like, I must have
screwed up so bad that he thinks

1291
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:34,080
it's laughable.
I'm even here talking to him,

1292
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:36,240
right?
That was my first thought.

1293
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:40,320
And he just leaned in and he
goes, well, how was it?

1294
01:23:41,480 --> 01:23:43,000
How was your experience down
there?

1295
01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:44,960
I want to hear about it.
Right.

1296
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:45,960
And that was it.
Right.

1297
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:49,240
And then all of a sudden there's
this conversation and I, oh, I

1298
01:23:49,240 --> 01:23:50,560
get goosebumps and kind of tear
up.

1299
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:54,000
When I think about it, felt very
comfortable in his presence

1300
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,360
right now.
I'm not saying that's doctrine.

1301
01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:00,000
I'm saying that's what I needed
at that time, right.

1302
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:03,880
My hopes are, and I have faith
that when we get to the other

1303
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:06,480
side it's not.
Well, I've checked the checklist

1304
01:24:06,480 --> 01:24:08,600
and boy, you really sucked.
Right?

1305
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:11,280
And just start writing it down.
I I think it's gonna be much

1306
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:14,840
more about how was it what'd you
learn?

1307
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:17,240
Tell me about it.
Let let's talk about a few of

1308
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:20,600
these things right.
And and I really think that's

1309
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:24,040
who God, our father is at the
heart of this right.

1310
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:27,920
It's.
I used to say it's an

1311
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:30,240
unfortunate truth and I don't
say that anymore.

1312
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:35,200
But it is a truth that we learn
way more from our failures than

1313
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:40,440
we do from our successes.
If if we're successful, we don't

1314
01:24:40,440 --> 01:24:44,760
feel the need to be self self
reflective and be introspective

1315
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:46,560
about how we could have done
things better.

1316
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:51,800
But if we're if we take a couple
of losses, right, we take a

1317
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:55,360
couple LS all of a sudden now
you got to go to that tape to

1318
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:58,680
put it back again into a British
football thing.

1319
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:02,240
And we got to review the tape
and we got to be like and get

1320
01:25:02,240 --> 01:25:04,480
honest with ourselves and be
like, oh, I could have done

1321
01:25:04,480 --> 01:25:08,200
better there, you know, I could
have handled this situation

1322
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:09,800
differently.
I could have done this.

1323
01:25:11,360 --> 01:25:14,760
The beauty I think, to that line
of thinking as it as it relates

1324
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:19,280
to, to eternal perspective, is
that now there's no more bad

1325
01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:22,640
experiences.
They're just experiences, right?

1326
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:24,440
It may have sucked to go
through.

1327
01:25:24,440 --> 01:25:27,920
I don't wanna make light that,
that we don't get miserable

1328
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:31,280
'cause we sure do.
But all of those things work out

1329
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:34,840
to make us who we're supposed to
be, to fill that measure, that

1330
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:41,160
creation.
Let let me ask this question to

1331
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:49,640
you as As you begin to do the
podcast here, what are some of

1332
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:52,680
the things you're most worried
about encountering along the

1333
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:58,160
way?
I I don't know.

1334
01:25:58,240 --> 01:26:02,600
I think this my fears are still
kind of the more prideful ones.

1335
01:26:03,640 --> 01:26:08,640
I'm just encountering the losing
friends over it.

1336
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:14,120
I think that's pretty much a
given and being.

1337
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:23,600
I've always been a bit of a
loner and I I hope that we can

1338
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:31,040
find, I can find friends in this
that are more like me, I guess.

1339
01:26:31,440 --> 01:26:35,600
Maybe that sounds silly and
childish, but I think, you know,

1340
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:39,560
sometimes we get so caught up in
our family units.

1341
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:44,040
One thing God has really taught
me a lot about is that family

1342
01:26:44,040 --> 01:26:49,120
really is can be created and
that we are all brothers and

1343
01:26:49,120 --> 01:26:51,080
sisters because we're all as
children anyway.

1344
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:54,040
And so sometimes we get really
caught up on just like, oh, our

1345
01:26:54,040 --> 01:26:57,800
family group or our church
family or something.

1346
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:03,520
But family can be created all
around us, and like in heaven,

1347
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:07,880
you know, like we are so happy
with everyone who's there.

1348
01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:12,160
And so I don't even remember
your question.

1349
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:18,920
What were some of your your
fears or challenges you see

1350
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:26,480
coming up and doing the podcast?
I think talking about multiple

1351
01:27:26,480 --> 01:27:29,040
lives and stuff, I guess that
kind of scares me a little.

1352
01:27:29,480 --> 01:27:31,360
It's so outside of the box.
I've got it.

1353
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:37,600
I There's other things that are
more because they're all kind of

1354
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:39,720
personal, I guess, You know,
like the things that we learn

1355
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:44,720
that are outside of the box with
God, Once we start talking about

1356
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:48,160
those things, it it gets a
little more scary because it's

1357
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,720
personal for us, you know,
because we we know these things

1358
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:55,080
to be true.
We feel it in our heart and our

1359
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:57,600
soul and God has taught us
himself, you know?

1360
01:27:57,600 --> 01:28:00,640
And that's The thing is like, I
had the Lord teach me things.

1361
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:05,240
I know I have a Heavenly Mother.
I have seen her and she has

1362
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:10,800
taught me things and I love her.
So there's certain things that

1363
01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:16,760
are just more personal that it's
a little scary to be to be that

1364
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:19,160
vulnerable.
So I guess it's not even

1365
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:24,280
necessarily topics as much as it
is the vulnerability.

1366
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:26,320
It's scary to be that
vulnerable.

1367
01:28:26,360 --> 01:28:30,520
I'm one of those people that has
like 200 Facebook friends.

1368
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:34,000
I'm not on really other social
media platforms barely at all.

1369
01:28:34,760 --> 01:28:39,640
It's just not who I am in that
way.

1370
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:41,920
And so that's what's scary for
me.

1371
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:48,800
I'm scared to put myself out in
the world like that and and be

1372
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:55,160
so vulnerable with the people I
love, like I love, sorry.

1373
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:58,840
Oh, you're good.
Crying so much, but I I love my

1374
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:01,560
Heavenly Father.
I love my Heavenly Mother and my

1375
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:04,160
Savior.
I love all of the different

1376
01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:09,080
people who have come to visit me
spiritually.

1377
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:16,960
Like I've had so many different
people come teach me, and I love

1378
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:23,120
them, and I'm so grateful that
they take the time to come talk

1379
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:26,680
to little me.
You know, I feel so unimportant.

1380
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:30,120
I'm sorry.
No, you're good.

1381
01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:31,120
I feel so.
Apologize.

1382
01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:38,400
I feel so unimportant in the
world like I'm just just me and

1383
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:44,080
there's so many other people out
there that are have a stronger

1384
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:48,920
personality or who who love all
this tech stuff.

1385
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:55,000
But yet they still come and
teach me and they still are

1386
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:57,560
willing to hold my hand and
they're still willing to ask me

1387
01:29:57,560 --> 01:30:00,440
to do hard things and they still
believe in me like the the

1388
01:30:00,480 --> 01:30:03,680
things I've been asked to do.
I'm like I can't believe that

1389
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:11,440
you are trusting me with this
and but they do and so the

1390
01:30:11,480 --> 01:30:14,880
vulnerability can be hard on
such a mass scale because I'm

1391
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:18,600
I'm really good at that person
to person.

1392
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:21,320
I'm really willing to share
stuff when it's a little more

1393
01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:24,920
intimate.
And so that's that's just the

1394
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:26,840
scary thing.
Like the different topics that I

1395
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:32,080
know are going to be more
inflammatory to people like man,

1396
01:30:32,080 --> 01:30:36,800
thorough marriage, really rouse
people up, man, multiple lives

1397
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:44,960
really, really Riles people up.
The idea that that that their

1398
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:47,800
church, any church, it doesn't
have to be the LDS church, the

1399
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:51,080
mainstream LDS because lots of
people believe their church is

1400
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:53,520
the only way you're going to
manage to get to heaven.

1401
01:30:54,360 --> 01:31:00,920
And so challenging that that
really what what are we really

1402
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:05,680
meant to do is follow Christ and
that's it, you know.

1403
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:09,720
And so he will teach us.
I've been telling people for a

1404
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:14,960
couple years that everything
that we think to be true,

1405
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:16,320
there's going to be
misconceptions.

1406
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:19,160
All of us have them.
And that when we Start learning

1407
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:23,720
at the feet of Christ, he will
help all of those misconceptions

1408
01:31:23,720 --> 01:31:29,680
fall away until our
understanding is pure and

1409
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:34,560
aligned with more with them.
And so when he says, you know I

1410
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:39,280
want, I want them to be one with
me and you, father, that's to me

1411
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:42,920
what that means.
You know, like when we are

1412
01:31:42,920 --> 01:31:48,360
aligned with his desire to to
love his children, to give them

1413
01:31:48,360 --> 01:31:52,680
chances, to encourage them and
bring them hope.

1414
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:55,840
That's what he wants us to be
aligned with.

1415
01:31:55,880 --> 01:32:03,520
And to love ourselves and to
realize, like, we are so much

1416
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:08,040
more than just this life and
there's so much more to be had

1417
01:32:08,040 --> 01:32:13,000
even after this life.
And I don't know.

1418
01:32:13,000 --> 01:32:15,760
I just think it's all really
beautiful and I really hope that

1419
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:23,040
that I can do and justice of it.
Then I can knock it in the way

1420
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:29,240
of whatever the Lord wants this
podcast to be and and that it'll

1421
01:32:29,240 --> 01:32:31,960
turn into something beautiful.
So.

1422
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:35,960
Well, let let me say this about
vulnerability.

1423
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:40,520
We're in a world today where.
Both.

1424
01:32:40,960 --> 01:32:46,160
The secular world, and even the
religious world is highly

1425
01:32:46,160 --> 01:32:52,040
choreographed, right?
It's highly produced and in that

1426
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:57,760
process there is no authenticity
that is available.

1427
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:01,880
I think that's one of the
reasons this whole podcast space

1428
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:06,080
has blown up and I think it
applies to Mormonism as well.

1429
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:13,600
It'll be your vulnerability and
your authenticity that that was

1430
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:16,560
certainly a draw to have you on
the podcast, right?

1431
01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:20,200
I don't have time for fake
people that want to just spit

1432
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:23,640
shine everything and make it
look it's absolute best.

1433
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:30,520
I've got no time for that.
I want to know the real stuff,

1434
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:33,080
but real stuff requires
vulnerability.

1435
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:38,960
But it's in that vulnerability
and that authenticity that I

1436
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:42,360
think we find ourselves doing
the most growth.

1437
01:33:47,160 --> 01:33:48,760
Uh huh.
I think I've shared this once

1438
01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:57,720
before, but not to this detail.
About two years before I left

1439
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:05,120
the LDS church, I felt the Lord
say and this this caught me off

1440
01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:09,920
guard.
He I I felt him say you got some

1441
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:13,240
stuff you need to work out son.
I was like, great, let's you and

1442
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:16,560
me work it out.
He's like, you're kind of too

1443
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:19,840
comfortable here.
Go find a counselor.

1444
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:26,480
Now, as a guy of my personality,
the last thing I want to do is

1445
01:34:26,480 --> 01:34:31,040
go talk to a shrink, right?
I'm like, no thank you for

1446
01:34:31,040 --> 01:34:34,640
trying, but no.
And he said just look and I'll

1447
01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:35,880
point you in the right
direction.

1448
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:40,840
And so I found one and she was
amazing.

1449
01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:46,200
We talked for a little while
before I got down to my issues,

1450
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:49,800
right?
And my issues were before I left

1451
01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:56,920
the LDS church for good.
When I had, I'd engaged in

1452
01:34:56,920 --> 01:35:00,240
plural marriage for about 5
years and that fell apart.

1453
01:35:02,040 --> 01:35:08,280
And so my answer to that was
I'll, I'll lift more weights and

1454
01:35:08,280 --> 01:35:10,800
eat more steak and then I'll
just tamp it down and it'll be

1455
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:14,360
fine.
It's not necessarily the case.

1456
01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:16,240
It's not great.
Not, not a good.

1457
01:35:16,280 --> 01:35:18,840
Might be good, like for about 6
months.

1458
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:21,240
But after a while that crap
starts to percolate and you

1459
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:27,000
gotta get that out.
And I remember she, she leaned

1460
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:30,680
over once and she just said
you're holding back.

1461
01:35:30,720 --> 01:35:36,480
This counselor did.
You're holding back and you're

1462
01:35:36,480 --> 01:35:39,840
wasting your money.
I can sit here all day and

1463
01:35:39,840 --> 01:35:42,320
listen to you complain about
things, but there's something

1464
01:35:42,320 --> 01:35:44,040
else.
What is it?

1465
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:50,080
And it was at that moment, I
just 'cause she was devoutly

1466
01:35:50,080 --> 01:35:54,160
LDS.
So I was like, OK, you asked for

1467
01:35:54,160 --> 01:35:55,240
it, sister.
Here we go.

1468
01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:58,080
And so I tell her this whole
journey, right?

1469
01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:03,320
And I was like, OK, now when I
was done, I just kind of leaned

1470
01:36:03,320 --> 01:36:05,920
back in my chair and I was like,
OK, now here's where she kicks

1471
01:36:05,920 --> 01:36:09,520
me out, right where she's like,
get out of my office and make

1472
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:12,960
sure you use a napkin and don't
touch the door handle with your

1473
01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:15,000
ECHI polygamy germs.
Get out of here.

1474
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:17,920
Right.
But that wasn't the case.

1475
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:23,160
She just kind of sat and she
looked at me and she's like, OK,

1476
01:36:23,600 --> 01:36:26,360
that makes sense.
And I was like, let me guess,

1477
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:31,760
your recommendation is, is that
that I, I go and I make.

1478
01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:37,920
Well, first she said, OK, so did
you repent of living in plural

1479
01:36:37,920 --> 01:36:42,560
marriage?
And I was like, no, no, because

1480
01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:48,560
I know it's a true principle and
I know that this was a problem

1481
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:50,560
between people, not the
principle.

1482
01:36:52,440 --> 01:36:54,920
And I thought, OK, here's the
part where she's going to tell

1483
01:36:54,920 --> 01:37:00,160
me to go and talk to whoever I
need to talk to in the LDS

1484
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:03,520
Church and get this cleaned up.
And she just goes, I have a

1485
01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:05,920
testimony of it too.
And she's like, I think you did

1486
01:37:05,920 --> 01:37:10,920
it for the right reasons.
And I had a few more visits and

1487
01:37:10,920 --> 01:37:13,720
then it was done.
And I've come to realize that

1488
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:17,880
what that did is that was
clearing the path before me to

1489
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:22,200
to be able to become a
fundamentalist, to make peace

1490
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:29,480
with that, to to get ready to
have Tanya come into the family.

1491
01:37:29,600 --> 01:37:33,840
Right.
But if I wasn't vulnerable, we

1492
01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:37,800
wouldn't have got to that point.
The world that we live in today

1493
01:37:37,800 --> 01:37:41,360
is starved for authenticity.
And unfortunately, you can't get

1494
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:43,360
authenticity without being
vulnerable.

1495
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:48,920
So that'll be something that
that will carry you through for

1496
01:37:48,920 --> 01:37:52,280
quite a while as being able to
be authentic.

1497
01:37:55,800 --> 01:37:58,880
Let me ask you this, when when
you made the decision to leave,

1498
01:38:00,920 --> 01:38:03,840
to leave the LDS church and then
start this new journey.

1499
01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:06,080
You mentioned you had seven
kids.

1500
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:09,200
How did you, how are you
navigating that with them?

1501
01:38:09,680 --> 01:38:13,120
And and I want to dive into this
because this is a question I get

1502
01:38:13,120 --> 01:38:16,560
a lot from people.
I get about 3 to 400 emails a

1503
01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:20,320
week consistently and one of the
big questions that always comes

1504
01:38:20,320 --> 01:38:26,120
up is people are like I I don't
know how to raise my kids with

1505
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:29,640
spiritual values because the
church has done it for me for so

1506
01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:33,240
long.
How?

1507
01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:40,520
How have you navigated that?
Well, one of the questions it it

1508
01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:43,000
may not sound like this is
connected at the beginning, but

1509
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:46,120
I'll connect it.
Sure, I'll connect it around.

1510
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:52,120
Growing up, my mom used to
always say that it was such a

1511
01:38:52,120 --> 01:38:53,920
blessing to be born into the
church.

1512
01:38:55,720 --> 01:38:59,280
And I remember thinking like,
well, why, You know, sometimes I

1513
01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:02,320
would listen to people's
testimonies about joining the

1514
01:39:02,320 --> 01:39:04,320
church as a teenager, adult,
whatever.

1515
01:39:04,520 --> 01:39:06,800
And I'd say they have, they seem
to have a better life

1516
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:09,480
understanding than me because
they've lived it without it, so

1517
01:39:09,480 --> 01:39:12,120
they can appreciate it better,
right?

1518
01:39:12,240 --> 01:39:16,040
Like, so am I really benefited
from being born in the church?

1519
01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:20,000
And I guess I don't know.
Anyway, so she would say stuff

1520
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:23,360
like that and was like, I would
always just wonder why, Why?

1521
01:39:23,360 --> 01:39:28,280
Like, I don't understand.
And I mean, obviously I I was

1522
01:39:28,280 --> 01:39:30,400
active.
I had testimony like, I love the

1523
01:39:30,400 --> 01:39:33,080
church, but I it was just that
idea of like the ex.

1524
01:39:33,280 --> 01:39:35,640
It was somehow extra blessings,
you know, I was like, I don't

1525
01:39:35,640 --> 01:39:38,120
know if I really believe that
and I don't know how I feel

1526
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:46,480
about that statement.
Excuse me, the so a couple weeks

1527
01:39:46,480 --> 01:39:51,280
ago I was praying about my
children because I've only

1528
01:39:51,280 --> 01:39:55,440
stopped really going to church.
I don't know.

1529
01:39:55,440 --> 01:39:57,560
It's been like three or four
weeks or something like that.

1530
01:39:58,040 --> 01:40:00,520
And before that, like I hadn't
gone a whole lot.

1531
01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:02,480
But we've been sick and we've
been traveling.

1532
01:40:02,480 --> 01:40:06,320
Like there was reasons this was
like one of the first, this was

1533
01:40:06,320 --> 01:40:09,120
the moment where I said, OK, I'm
not going back.

1534
01:40:10,480 --> 01:40:14,320
And so I was praying about my
kids because my kids don't

1535
01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:18,400
understand fully.
They how could they?

1536
01:40:18,400 --> 01:40:21,000
You know, we go to church every
single Sunday their full lives

1537
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:24,280
and suddenly we're just not
going and.

1538
01:40:25,360 --> 01:40:27,800
So I was praying about how to
handle that because I've been on

1539
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:29,960
this this whole spiritual
journey myself.

1540
01:40:29,960 --> 01:40:31,680
But how do I help my kids
understand?

1541
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:35,880
You know, my journey was based
on this foundation of going to

1542
01:40:35,880 --> 01:40:38,760
church every Sunday till I was
30.

1543
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:44,000
I'm 32, right?
And so that foundation helped me

1544
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:47,480
to be ready for like the no,
don't go anymore.

1545
01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:49,840
I want you to just like walk
with me, answer.

1546
01:40:50,440 --> 01:40:53,000
So how do I deal with that with
my kids?

1547
01:40:53,240 --> 01:41:05,360
And what what what I was told
was that I was born into the

1548
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:10,160
church so that I could have the
growth and the learning and the

1549
01:41:10,160 --> 01:41:13,920
understandings that by 32, you
know, I could be here and

1550
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:20,600
prepared for this answer.
That that my children, because

1551
01:41:20,600 --> 01:41:26,800
I'm the one who's raised them,
they are now in a place to start

1552
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:31,320
that journey and go through it
faster so that their work for

1553
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:34,920
the Lord can start sooner and
they can go even further in

1554
01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:40,840
their lives.
And so I encourage everyone to

1555
01:41:40,840 --> 01:41:43,320
look at it that way.
You're not, they're not missing

1556
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:47,960
out on something.
You're giving them an advanced

1557
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:54,240
pivot, an advanced into that
could be in a beautiful and

1558
01:41:54,240 --> 01:41:57,160
incredible journey for them.
They're going to have to figure

1559
01:41:57,160 --> 01:41:59,800
it out with the Lord themselves
for a lot, but we all do.

1560
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:06,800
And so learning how to trust the
Lord with each person is a huge

1561
01:42:06,800 --> 01:42:08,160
thing.
I think that has brought me a

1562
01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:10,880
lot of peace, you know, that was
another thing I learned in my

1563
01:42:10,880 --> 01:42:14,920
divorce was that I can't control
this person.

1564
01:42:14,920 --> 01:42:20,720
I can't.
I can't even, like, I can't even

1565
01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:23,440
always be the one to teach them.
Like there's so many things that

1566
01:42:23,440 --> 01:42:27,480
you try to express to someone in
any kind of relationship and

1567
01:42:27,480 --> 01:42:30,480
they may not understand.
And you just have to trust that

1568
01:42:31,240 --> 01:42:33,400
if they're meant to, that God
can help them.

1569
01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:38,160
And so, you know, that was that,
that teaching for me and my

1570
01:42:38,160 --> 01:42:41,280
relationship was that it was
never yours to teach.

1571
01:42:41,400 --> 01:42:43,960
It was always me.
It was always the Lord who was

1572
01:42:43,960 --> 01:42:47,960
meant to teach those lessons.
And so, you know, as a family,

1573
01:42:47,960 --> 01:42:50,280
we read scriptures, We talk
about God a lot.

1574
01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:52,880
I mean, I just because I stopped
going to church doesn't mean I

1575
01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:55,320
stopped talking about God.
I mean, he's the reason.

1576
01:42:55,880 --> 01:42:57,360
He's the reason.
He's the reason I'm doing.

1577
01:42:57,360 --> 01:43:01,000
Like everything I'm doing in my
life, you know, my whole life is

1578
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:05,760
founded on him.
And so we still pray and read

1579
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:07,840
our scriptures and talk about
God.

1580
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:11,920
And I encourage them to pray for
guidance every single day.

1581
01:43:12,320 --> 01:43:14,680
I encourage them to read their
scriptures and develop.

1582
01:43:15,120 --> 01:43:17,280
And I tell them like you, you
know, as you read the

1583
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:23,120
scriptures, you develop the
knowing for the Spirit, where

1584
01:43:23,120 --> 01:43:27,240
you get to to know and recognize
the Holy Ghost in your life and

1585
01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:30,160
truth.
And that's how you gain the

1586
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:33,280
foundation, so that as you go
throughout life and life gets

1587
01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:35,040
confusing.
And there's all these questions

1588
01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:38,400
you're going to have that you
know what that truth and the

1589
01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:41,320
goodness and the Spirit feels
like, so that you don't get

1590
01:43:41,320 --> 01:43:42,640
lost.
And so.

1591
01:43:42,960 --> 01:43:46,720
And I just, that's all I can do
is really just encourage them to

1592
01:43:47,360 --> 01:43:50,640
to break open the boxes they
have around God and around

1593
01:43:50,640 --> 01:43:57,400
themselves and to grow a
relationship with the Holy Ghost

1594
01:43:57,400 --> 01:44:04,160
themselves and and to seek God
because that's all that's really

1595
01:44:04,160 --> 01:44:08,640
all I can do.
And that's that would be my

1596
01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:10,960
suggestion.
That's what that's the hope that

1597
01:44:10,960 --> 01:44:14,560
I'm holding on to as a parent
because I don't know how it's

1598
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:17,440
going to turn out.
I don't know if all my kids are

1599
01:44:17,440 --> 01:44:21,960
going to be as focused on God as
they continue to grow and go

1600
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:23,720
through their teen years.
They get married and leave the

1601
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:27,880
house and all of that.
But The thing is, is I trust the

1602
01:44:27,880 --> 01:44:31,680
Lord with them.
Yeah, you hit on something that

1603
01:44:31,680 --> 01:44:34,920
I came to the conclusion of a a
few years back.

1604
01:44:37,400 --> 01:44:41,240
And this has to do with both
missionary work as as well as

1605
01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:48,840
raising your kids.
I was like, thinking to myself,

1606
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:51,640
OK, how am I going to teach my
kids as much as I can?

1607
01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:54,680
So I got my grip on awfully
tight, right?

1608
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:57,800
I was like, I got to do this and
I got to do this, and I got to

1609
01:44:57,800 --> 01:45:00,040
do this, and I got to bear
perfect testimony at this

1610
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:02,960
principle.
And I have to do this, this and

1611
01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:07,480
this.
And then one morning, one Sunday

1612
01:45:07,480 --> 01:45:11,600
morning, right before we had our
our sacrament meeting, I was on

1613
01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:16,120
my knees praying.
I was like, OK, Lord, please

1614
01:45:16,120 --> 01:45:22,960
help me, help me do the do
enough to to get them, you know,

1615
01:45:23,000 --> 01:45:27,320
where they need to be.
And it was so quick and so

1616
01:45:27,320 --> 01:45:31,040
stark, the answer was, I don't
need you to do that.

1617
01:45:32,320 --> 01:45:34,880
I just need you to make an
appointment for me with your

1618
01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:36,680
children, and I'll take it from
there.

1619
01:45:39,600 --> 01:45:41,840
I think that's what we're
supposed to do in raising our

1620
01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:48,120
kids and in even when we do
missionary work, we don't

1621
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:51,960
convert anybody, right?
We can teach principal, we can

1622
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:56,680
bear testimony in principal, but
that should be to the end of

1623
01:45:56,680 --> 01:46:01,200
making the appointment with the
Savior for that person, help set

1624
01:46:01,200 --> 01:46:03,000
the appointment up.
That's it.

1625
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:07,760
He is more than capable of doing
his work, our work.

1626
01:46:07,880 --> 01:46:14,040
Just set up the appointment.
And I I think if I'm if I'm not

1627
01:46:14,040 --> 01:46:15,960
mistaken, if I am, please
correct me.

1628
01:46:16,040 --> 01:46:17,240
But I think that's what you're
saying.

1629
01:46:17,240 --> 01:46:21,280
Just just point them to the
Savior and he can do his own

1630
01:46:21,280 --> 01:46:24,640
work.
He doesn't need us to do his job

1631
01:46:24,640 --> 01:46:25,440
for him.
We can't.

1632
01:46:25,480 --> 01:46:26,960
We, we.
I suck.

1633
01:46:27,320 --> 01:46:28,480
I suck at it.
Right.

1634
01:46:28,480 --> 01:46:31,240
To be right, honest with you,
the Savior is way more effective

1635
01:46:31,240 --> 01:46:36,080
at that than I am.
So I I, I, I can identify with

1636
01:46:36,080 --> 01:46:41,040
that a lot too.
What's that?

1637
01:46:41,880 --> 01:46:43,920
But what I was going to say, I
want to just say something.

1638
01:46:45,880 --> 01:46:49,400
God knows and the Savior knows
the direction their life is

1639
01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:52,680
supposed to take.
We don't know that as parents,

1640
01:46:52,840 --> 01:46:58,880
so we can't tailor their
education for their future

1641
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:05,480
unless we rely on the Lord.
Like one thing that I do during

1642
01:47:05,480 --> 01:47:09,480
family scripture study is I have
stopped reading.

1643
01:47:09,480 --> 01:47:15,960
Just like in order years ago.
And I so I have where I just

1644
01:47:16,040 --> 01:47:18,280
pray and ask like where are we
supposed to study tonight?

1645
01:47:18,680 --> 01:47:22,960
And that is really helpful
because sometimes we don't read

1646
01:47:23,120 --> 01:47:25,280
more than one verse before the
Lord.

1647
01:47:25,400 --> 01:47:28,400
The Spirit's like, Sarah, I need
you to teach this to your kids.

1648
01:47:28,400 --> 01:47:33,440
And we go off on this great
conversation and we only read

1649
01:47:33,440 --> 01:47:37,080
one verse but it it pivoted into
this beautiful thing that we

1650
01:47:37,200 --> 01:47:40,520
that the Spirit had me teach.
And I sometimes I didn't even

1651
01:47:40,520 --> 01:47:43,440
know it.
It's like, wow, you brought it

1652
01:47:43,440 --> 01:47:46,040
like the the Spirit will teach
me something and then it's like,

1653
01:47:46,040 --> 01:47:52,240
OK, teach your kids.
And so we talk about it so in

1654
01:47:52,240 --> 01:47:55,280
conjunction with the Holy Ghost,
like he can guide you on the

1655
01:47:55,280 --> 01:47:56,560
things that you can teach your
kids.

1656
01:47:56,560 --> 01:48:01,040
But honestly, it's not your job,
because only only they know what

1657
01:48:01,280 --> 01:48:08,520
that kid needs for their future.
And so I'm not doing nothing.

1658
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:11,440
You know, like we are reading.
I pray for them.

1659
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:14,600
We pray together.
I point them towards the Lord as

1660
01:48:14,600 --> 01:48:20,480
much as I can, but in the end,
it's that spirit will witness to

1661
01:48:20,480 --> 01:48:23,280
their heart.
And there's nothing that I can.

1662
01:48:23,280 --> 01:48:25,360
I can't force any of it.
There's no way.

1663
01:48:25,920 --> 01:48:28,640
So I just trust them.
And honestly, I'm really excited

1664
01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:33,920
to see the path of their life.
And I think that is really

1665
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:36,800
helpful for me, that I just look
at it very differently.

1666
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:40,280
I'm really excited to see where
God takes them.

1667
01:48:40,960 --> 01:48:43,800
I really AM.
Yeah, no, that's awesome.

1668
01:48:44,520 --> 01:48:47,240
All right, I got one more
question I want to wrap up with.

1669
01:48:47,240 --> 01:48:49,720
But first I want to ask you, is
there anything that we didn't

1670
01:48:49,720 --> 01:48:54,600
cover that you'd like to cover?
Anything you want to explore

1671
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:56,720
more about your podcast or
anything?

1672
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:00,800
You know, there was a couple
things that I thought of as we

1673
01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:04,520
were talking, but I don't know
if I remember what those were at

1674
01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:11,960
this very moment.
I I guess the only thing is

1675
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:20,440
they'll add is like that.
If you are curious about

1676
01:49:20,440 --> 01:49:23,160
spiritual gifts like that, that
is going to be a big thing for

1677
01:49:23,160 --> 01:49:25,080
me.
I want people to embrace who

1678
01:49:25,080 --> 01:49:28,480
they are and and learn their
spiritual gifts.

1679
01:49:28,880 --> 01:49:33,120
And so some of the people that I
will have on there too.

1680
01:49:33,120 --> 01:49:37,080
It's not just like faith
journeys about, you know, coming

1681
01:49:37,080 --> 01:49:38,600
under Christ or anything like
that.

1682
01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:40,760
Just stuff like that.
Like there's going to be so many

1683
01:49:40,760 --> 01:49:43,240
different things that we talked
about and some of those things

1684
01:49:43,240 --> 01:49:47,960
will be spiritual gifts because
and miracles because there's a

1685
01:49:47,960 --> 01:49:51,040
lot of things that the
scriptures say will only.

1686
01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:55,400
We will only lose among the
believers if we lose the faith

1687
01:49:55,400 --> 01:49:57,480
for those miracles and those
spiritual gifts.

1688
01:49:57,880 --> 01:50:02,840
And so I hope to build faith
even in those things and so.

1689
01:50:03,920 --> 01:50:06,680
Well, let me ask you this.
Let's let's explore that for

1690
01:50:06,680 --> 01:50:08,240
just a second.
Are you OK on time?

1691
01:50:09,880 --> 01:50:14,920
Yeah, yeah, I'm good.
How did you go about discovering

1692
01:50:14,920 --> 01:50:19,040
your spiritual gifts, 'cause we
hear about it, right?

1693
01:50:19,040 --> 01:50:22,600
We we all have these gifts.
How do you discover those?

1694
01:50:23,040 --> 01:50:28,440
How did you discover those?
Well, I was actually kind of by

1695
01:50:28,440 --> 01:50:31,880
accident.
I have this really old house

1696
01:50:32,000 --> 01:50:41,200
that needs a lot of work.
And and I was feeling very

1697
01:50:42,160 --> 01:50:45,880
unprepared for times ahead and
thinking like it would be good

1698
01:50:45,880 --> 01:50:48,520
to have a spirit priesthood
holder around.

1699
01:50:49,520 --> 01:50:52,800
And God, I started sending
people to tell me, hey, if you

1700
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:54,520
ever need somewhere to live, you
can come live with us.

1701
01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:55,840
And I'm like, I have a house,
like why?

1702
01:50:55,920 --> 01:50:58,800
Why do people keep telling me I
can come live with them with my

1703
01:50:58,800 --> 01:51:02,040
kids?
I have a house, you know, And

1704
01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:04,400
even though it wasn't a great
house but I just kept going, OK,

1705
01:51:04,400 --> 01:51:06,800
Heavenly Father, what point are
you trying to make here?

1706
01:51:08,280 --> 01:51:10,560
And then he sent someone who
said, hey, if you ever need

1707
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:12,720
somewhere to live, you can come
and live out with us.

1708
01:51:12,720 --> 01:51:18,080
And it was this family who was
building this, this big building

1709
01:51:18,080 --> 01:51:19,800
to receive people.
Like there's a bunch of bunk

1710
01:51:19,800 --> 01:51:23,400
beds, there's extra clothes,
there's food storage so they can

1711
01:51:23,400 --> 01:51:27,440
be prepared to receive people
who they feel are coming, you

1712
01:51:27,440 --> 01:51:32,760
know, will be coming.
And so I felt like I was

1713
01:51:32,760 --> 01:51:34,920
supposed to move out there, and
it didn't make a lot of sense at

1714
01:51:34,920 --> 01:51:38,080
the time.
But I lived out there for a

1715
01:51:38,080 --> 01:51:42,280
couple months with my kids.
And one of the the major reason

1716
01:51:42,640 --> 01:51:46,520
was that I was supposed to learn
about my spiritual gift.

1717
01:51:47,080 --> 01:51:51,320
And because this family, they
weren't only trying to prepare

1718
01:51:51,560 --> 01:51:55,240
physically for the for other
people, I mean really selfless

1719
01:51:55,240 --> 01:51:59,000
in that way.
But they also had spiritual

1720
01:51:59,000 --> 01:52:05,600
gifts in their family and were
actively pursuing and believing

1721
01:52:06,120 --> 01:52:11,240
and taking the time to try to
converse with the Lord and

1722
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:14,480
hearing angels and stuff like
that.

1723
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:21,440
And so they just invited me to
come to one of their like

1724
01:52:21,440 --> 01:52:25,720
gathering type things.
And it was just a really

1725
01:52:25,720 --> 01:52:28,640
interesting experience that
really brought in my mind of

1726
01:52:28,640 --> 01:52:31,800
like what was possible to see.
And because she could see

1727
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:33,600
spirits and she could see these
things.

1728
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:35,160
And I'm like, well, I don't see
that.

1729
01:52:35,160 --> 01:52:38,360
But I've had some interesting
experiences.

1730
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:41,840
Like I've had these visions.
I've had interest like teaching

1731
01:52:41,840 --> 01:52:48,520
dreams at night and and so I've
had these other spiritual

1732
01:52:48,520 --> 01:52:50,680
experiences, but I didn't have
anything like that.

1733
01:52:51,000 --> 01:52:53,920
And so it just it another it was
just another thing that kind of

1734
01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:57,920
like broke open the box of what
was possible in life.

1735
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:01,240
And because the scriptures say
that, you know there's so many

1736
01:53:01,240 --> 01:53:07,640
different spiritual gifts And so
she we were praying.

1737
01:53:07,640 --> 01:53:13,240
We were together one night and
there was an someone there, a

1738
01:53:13,240 --> 01:53:16,600
messenger there, and they were
speaking through her and it was

1739
01:53:16,640 --> 01:53:19,160
a lovely message.
And then it suddenly just

1740
01:53:19,160 --> 01:53:23,360
stopped and she said, I feel
like someone else is supposed to

1741
01:53:23,800 --> 01:53:27,400
be the voice.
And I and I was like, OK, I

1742
01:53:27,400 --> 01:53:29,800
wonder who that is.
And then suddenly I heard this

1743
01:53:29,800 --> 01:53:34,080
like voice that was not mine.
And she said, Sarah, I need you

1744
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:38,680
to speak.
I said, what?

1745
01:53:38,680 --> 01:53:41,280
No, like that is terrifying.
I don't want to do that.

1746
01:53:42,720 --> 01:53:44,840
And she only gave me like 3
words to say.

1747
01:53:44,840 --> 01:53:46,600
I'm like, that's not even a
whole sentence.

1748
01:53:46,600 --> 01:53:48,360
That's what I told her.
I said, that's not even a whole

1749
01:53:48,360 --> 01:53:50,920
sentence.
Do you expect me to do something

1750
01:53:50,920 --> 01:53:55,040
so scary and start just talking
when you didn't even give me a

1751
01:53:55,040 --> 01:53:58,120
whole thought?
It's like, come on.

1752
01:53:58,120 --> 01:54:01,400
And she said, Sarah, I need you
to have the faith.

1753
01:54:01,560 --> 01:54:04,320
Just speak and I will give you
the rest.

1754
01:54:05,800 --> 01:54:09,520
And we kind of argued for a bit.
And then finally my friend was

1755
01:54:09,520 --> 01:54:11,480
like, is anyone hearing
anything?

1756
01:54:11,480 --> 01:54:12,760
Because there was a couple of
us.

1757
01:54:13,240 --> 01:54:18,000
And I was like, it's me, it's
me.

1758
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:23,880
And so I started saying what she
was telling me and it was a

1759
01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:26,320
like, it was a lovely message.
I don't remember exactly what

1760
01:54:26,320 --> 01:54:29,160
was said.
And so I feel like I was kind of

1761
01:54:29,160 --> 01:54:31,720
thrown into the deep end a
little bit.

1762
01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:37,040
It was like, oh, look, this is a
great possibility Push and just

1763
01:54:37,880 --> 01:54:41,200
threw me into the deep end.
And it was so scary.

1764
01:54:41,200 --> 01:54:45,520
But, you know, after that, I was
told, 'cause I asked, like, why

1765
01:54:45,520 --> 01:54:51,080
did you do that to me?
And I was told that they wanted

1766
01:54:51,080 --> 01:54:56,040
me to know that I was important
enough to to talk to.

1767
01:54:56,280 --> 01:54:58,080
Like, it's not just other
people, you know?

1768
01:54:58,080 --> 01:55:00,360
Like, I think sometimes we put
other people on a pedestal and

1769
01:55:00,360 --> 01:55:04,000
we go, oh, look at them, they
can receive this incredible

1770
01:55:04,000 --> 01:55:05,680
revelation.
Oh, wow.

1771
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:07,280
They have these great spiritual
gifts.

1772
01:55:07,960 --> 01:55:10,480
But what if that's us too, you
know?

1773
01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:13,000
And what if we are loved, just
as loved?

1774
01:55:13,040 --> 01:55:16,840
What if we are just as worthy?
We just needed to open a door.

1775
01:55:17,360 --> 01:55:25,160
And so I was kind of pushed in
to that kind of realm, but I it

1776
01:55:25,160 --> 01:55:29,080
was such a beautiful experience
and I prayed about it so often.

1777
01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:31,480
I guess it's really from you,
Heavenly Father, Is this really

1778
01:55:31,480 --> 01:55:34,320
a message from God?
This isn't evil, right?

1779
01:55:34,320 --> 01:55:39,560
Like, I would just pester him,
really pester him over and over

1780
01:55:39,560 --> 01:55:42,880
again, trying to make sure that
I wasn't doing anything evil,

1781
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:45,600
that this was all really from
him.

1782
01:55:46,240 --> 01:55:50,360
And so in that process of that
journey, it just gave me so much

1783
01:55:50,360 --> 01:55:57,200
more courage to believe outside
of the box, live outside of the

1784
01:55:57,200 --> 01:56:00,800
box and to believe in myself and
have more confidence.

1785
01:56:00,840 --> 01:56:05,080
That one thing, that this one of
the women who visited us a

1786
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:10,080
couple weeks ago, one of the
things she said to me was it's

1787
01:56:10,080 --> 01:56:13,160
really interesting to see
someone who I knew in heaven

1788
01:56:14,040 --> 01:56:19,880
think so little of themselves.
And that really struck me

1789
01:56:19,880 --> 01:56:24,240
because the way she said it, one
of the things is like when

1790
01:56:24,240 --> 01:56:28,520
you're conversing with someone
who has passed on, at least what

1791
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:31,480
I have found is you don't, I
don't just hear them.

1792
01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:35,640
I feel their emotions behind it.
And more of an explanation, it's

1793
01:56:35,640 --> 01:56:39,840
like more in DNC.
They call it a pure

1794
01:56:39,840 --> 01:56:45,200
intelligence, pure intelligence
and maybe in more modern terms

1795
01:56:45,840 --> 01:56:51,240
we might just call it telepathy
or something, but it's more pure

1796
01:56:51,240 --> 01:56:54,800
intelligence where it's not just
words, it's like the concepts,

1797
01:56:54,800 --> 01:56:59,080
the emotion behind it, the the
explanation is there too.

1798
01:56:59,080 --> 01:57:00,680
It like you feel it in your
heart.

1799
01:57:01,360 --> 01:57:07,000
And so her saying that to me was
just so eye opening and gave me

1800
01:57:07,000 --> 01:57:09,360
a lot of peace.
And I have thought about it a

1801
01:57:09,360 --> 01:57:15,000
lot because it's like I think
about people that I love and I

1802
01:57:15,000 --> 01:57:22,240
look up to and I think, wow,
what if what if I would feel so

1803
01:57:22,240 --> 01:57:24,560
sad if they thought of
themselves the way I think of

1804
01:57:24,560 --> 01:57:27,960
myself?
And So what if, what if that's

1805
01:57:27,960 --> 01:57:29,960
how they think what they feel
about me?

1806
01:57:31,040 --> 01:57:33,960
You know, if they think if
everyone else looks at you and

1807
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:36,360
thinks, oh, you're great and
you're sitting there thinking

1808
01:57:36,360 --> 01:57:39,960
how awful you are, like how sad,
I wouldn't want that for my

1809
01:57:39,960 --> 01:57:41,680
children.
I wouldn't want that for anyone

1810
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:43,920
I love.
I want them to see themselves

1811
01:57:43,920 --> 01:57:46,000
fully.
You know, we get really caught

1812
01:57:46,000 --> 01:57:51,280
up in our what we would maybe
consider our flaws.

1813
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:55,360
We get really caught up in that.
But God sees us in all of our

1814
01:57:55,360 --> 01:57:59,160
beauty and our glory and the
goodness in US.

1815
01:57:59,680 --> 01:58:02,880
You know, he's not throwing up
all the bad stuff in front of

1816
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:04,680
his face all the time, and
that's what he thinks of you.

1817
01:58:04,800 --> 01:58:08,760
No, he's always thinking of all
the good, all the wonderful

1818
01:58:08,760 --> 01:58:12,080
things.
And so that was really helpful

1819
01:58:12,080 --> 01:58:14,520
for me to hear.
And just remember, like I am

1820
01:58:15,520 --> 01:58:18,800
more than what I see, what I
hold up in front of my own eyes

1821
01:58:19,240 --> 01:58:21,640
when I look in the mirror, you
know, so.

1822
01:58:22,560 --> 01:58:27,440
And that's true for all of us.
You know, I think and I think

1823
01:58:27,440 --> 01:58:29,960
you alluded to this and that
part you talked about where

1824
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:35,440
where you didn't want to be the
voice in in that situation

1825
01:58:35,440 --> 01:58:38,520
there.
Sometimes I think we have to be

1826
01:58:38,520 --> 01:58:43,080
willing to put ourselves in an
in uncomfortable situations in

1827
01:58:43,080 --> 01:58:45,240
order to discover what those
are.

1828
01:58:45,840 --> 01:58:50,720
The other thing I'll say is that
I'm not a believer in you were

1829
01:58:50,720 --> 01:58:53,960
born with these spiritual gifts
and that's all you get, right?

1830
01:58:53,960 --> 01:58:59,080
I tend to think that those ones
that you have by nature can be

1831
01:58:59,080 --> 01:59:05,280
developed and honed and and made
made into tools for for the

1832
01:59:05,280 --> 01:59:09,760
benefit of God and His children.
The other thing I'll say is that

1833
01:59:09,760 --> 01:59:14,200
you may be in circumstances
where you need a gift that maybe

1834
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:16,840
you don't feel like you have
right, and that can be

1835
01:59:16,840 --> 01:59:21,040
developed, that can be learned.
The other thing I'll say is

1836
01:59:21,040 --> 01:59:25,640
this, and it's one of the things
that drew me to Mormonism, was,

1837
01:59:25,720 --> 01:59:32,200
as you read early accounts of
those early Mormons, they were

1838
01:59:32,200 --> 01:59:35,120
having encounters with the
divine frequently.

1839
01:59:37,280 --> 01:59:41,360
And I've said this before, and I
really mean it.

1840
01:59:42,680 --> 01:59:48,600
If we as Mormons and followers
of Christ are not having regular

1841
01:59:49,320 --> 01:59:52,160
and and I'm not talking every
day, I'm not even talking every

1842
01:59:52,160 --> 01:59:59,440
week, but certainly regular
occurrences of encountering the

1843
01:59:59,440 --> 02:00:01,720
divine, I don't think we're
doing Mormonism right.

1844
02:00:02,240 --> 02:00:05,720
I just don't.
I think that that Joseph Smith's

1845
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:10,600
message was I had my encounter
with God.

1846
02:00:11,440 --> 02:00:16,240
I had my meeting with them and
you can too and so if you're in

1847
02:00:16,240 --> 02:00:20,680
a place where you're not getting
that kind of communication from

1848
02:00:20,680 --> 02:00:25,640
God and and those kind of
encounters of the divine, I

1849
02:00:25,640 --> 02:00:31,720
don't think you're you're
reaping the full benefits of of

1850
02:00:32,360 --> 02:00:38,120
of living the gospel and.
Yeah.

1851
02:00:38,480 --> 02:00:43,160
One thing that I would like to
share that really helped me when

1852
02:00:43,160 --> 02:00:49,920
I first started was that at
least what?

1853
02:00:50,000 --> 02:00:53,120
OK, sorry, hard to explain
sometimes.

1854
02:00:53,800 --> 02:00:58,120
What I was told by someone else
was that there's angels and

1855
02:00:58,120 --> 02:01:02,280
they're trying to speak to you
and you just need to actually

1856
02:01:02,280 --> 02:01:04,520
acknowledge them.
So sometimes you may feel that

1857
02:01:04,520 --> 02:01:08,040
there's someone in the room, but
you look around and you're like,

1858
02:01:08,040 --> 02:01:10,200
well, there's no one here.
I just must be crazy.

1859
02:01:10,640 --> 02:01:12,400
So I, you know, I don't know why
I felt like that.

1860
02:01:13,000 --> 02:01:17,120
And instead of dismissing it,
say, is there someone here?

1861
02:01:17,480 --> 02:01:18,760
I feel like there's someone
here.

1862
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:20,520
Heavenly Father, is there
someone here?

1863
02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:25,240
You know, like, invite it to be
real, Like act, treat it like

1864
02:01:25,240 --> 02:01:30,000
it's a real thing because I have
yet to do that and there's no

1865
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:31,640
one there.
You know, when I feel like

1866
02:01:31,640 --> 02:01:34,280
there's someone there, that's
because there's someone there.

1867
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:41,280
And so that was a really big
shift for me is because I've had

1868
02:01:41,280 --> 02:01:43,800
experiences like that in my
life, plenty of them where I

1869
02:01:43,800 --> 02:01:47,200
thought someone was there or
whatever, and I just rejected

1870
02:01:47,200 --> 02:01:50,200
it.
And so that was a huge step for

1871
02:01:50,200 --> 02:01:52,880
me, was just treating it like it
was real.

1872
02:01:52,880 --> 02:01:57,000
And at first I had a really hard
time hearing more than just a

1873
02:01:57,000 --> 02:02:00,440
word or two or I couldn't quite
understand.

1874
02:02:00,880 --> 02:02:03,680
That was that took a lot of
work, that took a lot of

1875
02:02:03,680 --> 02:02:08,240
practice, a lot of apologizing
like I would, I would tell them

1876
02:02:08,240 --> 02:02:10,960
often I am so sorry.
I know you're trying to talk to

1877
02:02:10,960 --> 02:02:18,960
me.
I just don't understand you and

1878
02:02:18,960 --> 02:02:23,000
that it's my fault.
Not that's not Scott to help

1879
02:02:23,000 --> 02:02:26,400
open my ears.
Right.

1880
02:02:27,240 --> 02:02:30,680
And that was really helpful.
That was really helpful on my

1881
02:02:30,720 --> 02:02:32,600
journey.
No, I could see that.

1882
02:02:32,920 --> 02:02:35,640
I've often wondered in those
times when we talk to ourselves,

1883
02:02:35,640 --> 02:02:39,200
are we really just talking to
ourselves or is there someone

1884
02:02:39,520 --> 02:02:41,840
listening so I I can identify
with that?

1885
02:02:42,960 --> 02:02:46,200
All right, so here's my final
question for you.

1886
02:02:47,520 --> 02:02:54,160
What would you tell someone who
was where you were like a year

1887
02:02:54,160 --> 02:02:59,320
ago, where they're feeling a
call for something deeper in

1888
02:02:59,320 --> 02:03:04,320
terms of a relationship with the
Savior, or something more that

1889
02:03:06,920 --> 02:03:10,440
that they feel like they can
learn, but maybe it's outside of

1890
02:03:10,440 --> 02:03:14,560
dogma and organized religion.
What would you tell them?

1891
02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:19,520
That there's a reason that you
have that feeling in your heart

1892
02:03:20,720 --> 02:03:26,560
that God is calling you to a
greater understanding and he

1893
02:03:26,560 --> 02:03:30,440
wants you to to find these
things out.

1894
02:03:30,840 --> 02:03:37,320
And so I would just encourage
you to pray and ask for guidance

1895
02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:40,480
that you will.
One prayer that I say have said

1896
02:03:40,480 --> 02:03:43,880
a lot in my life is that please
guide me to the answers that are

1897
02:03:43,880 --> 02:03:46,080
true and to the things that you
want me to learn.

1898
02:03:46,560 --> 02:03:50,440
And please help keep me away
from the things that are not

1899
02:03:50,440 --> 02:03:53,880
true.
Help me to not get lost, right,

1900
02:03:53,880 --> 02:03:57,080
because we can go down a rabbit
hole of untruth and that's easy

1901
02:03:57,080 --> 02:04:00,440
to do.
And so help me to not get lost.

1902
02:04:01,640 --> 02:04:04,120
Help me to stay on a path
towards you.

1903
02:04:04,120 --> 02:04:06,640
Help me just to learn those
things that are true and right

1904
02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:09,160
and good.
And I have that prayer in my

1905
02:04:09,160 --> 02:04:11,200
heart a lot because you're going
to doubt.

1906
02:04:11,440 --> 02:04:15,480
I mean, I'll just be honest, the
the calm, more confident feeling

1907
02:04:15,480 --> 02:04:20,360
I have now was hard won through
a lot of doubt.

1908
02:04:20,600 --> 02:04:25,440
Through a lot of doubt.
And I'll give you a a little bit

1909
02:04:25,440 --> 02:04:29,000
of gold here that I was blessed
with one day when I was really

1910
02:04:29,000 --> 02:04:32,120
struggling.
I had so many doubts for days

1911
02:04:32,120 --> 02:04:35,400
and and I was really struggling
and I was praying, but I wasn't

1912
02:04:35,400 --> 02:04:38,840
really getting a very clear
answer and I was kind of losing

1913
02:04:38,840 --> 02:04:41,160
my way.
I was, I was in the sense that I

1914
02:04:41,160 --> 02:04:49,440
was ready to throw my hands up
and I instead did kind of throw

1915
02:04:49,440 --> 02:04:51,600
my hands up in a different way,
not giving up.

1916
02:04:51,600 --> 02:04:56,000
I said fine, I'm not going to
worry about it right now.

1917
02:04:56,160 --> 02:05:01,480
I guess what I what I I do know,
I'll hold on to like I know the

1918
02:05:01,480 --> 02:05:04,160
revelations I've received from
God are are from him and are

1919
02:05:04,160 --> 02:05:06,880
true.
And that's that's where I'll

1920
02:05:06,880 --> 02:05:08,680
start.
You know that's what it all

1921
02:05:08,680 --> 02:05:11,560
comes back down to.
Don't deny the things that you

1922
02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:15,640
know to be true.
And sometimes it takes the

1923
02:05:15,640 --> 02:05:20,280
declaration, a declaration of
faith in the things that you do

1924
02:05:20,280 --> 02:05:24,040
know are true to clear the air
of confusion and doubt.

1925
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:26,400
So use that.
Use that tool.

1926
02:05:27,040 --> 02:05:29,920
It's really helpful.
Fantastic.

1927
02:05:31,240 --> 02:05:37,080
All right, Sarah, we've done 2
hours here so good stuff.

1928
02:05:38,160 --> 02:05:41,160
I tell this to all my guests and
I mean it.

1929
02:05:41,560 --> 02:05:44,840
You ever want to come back on?
Just let me know.

1930
02:05:44,840 --> 02:05:46,280
I'll make.
I'll make the time.

1931
02:05:46,760 --> 02:05:48,640
So I'd.
I'd love to talk to you again.

1932
02:05:49,160 --> 02:05:51,600
Where can what was the name of
the podcast again from?

1933
02:05:53,480 --> 02:05:55,520
The desk.
And where can they find it?

1934
02:05:58,920 --> 02:06:02,440
They can find it on Spotify and
YouTube.

1935
02:06:03,120 --> 02:06:08,600
Perfect website yet or anything?
Not a website yet, hopefully

1936
02:06:08,600 --> 02:06:13,000
coming soon.
I do have an e-mail, it's from

1937
02:06:13,000 --> 02:06:17,440
the desk with sarah@gmail.com.
If anyone wants to send me an

1938
02:06:17,440 --> 02:06:22,080
e-mail, I'll have things up on
Spotify 1st and then they will

1939
02:06:22,080 --> 02:06:25,280
come up on YouTube after that
so.

1940
02:06:26,040 --> 02:06:29,240
Good stuff.
All right, well, I look forward

1941
02:06:29,240 --> 02:06:31,280
to listening to it.
Sarah, I'm super excited for

1942
02:06:31,280 --> 02:06:33,360
you.
Thank you so much.

1943
02:06:33,360 --> 02:06:35,600
Thanks for having me.
Everyone, go check out her

1944
02:06:35,600 --> 02:06:38,120
podcast.
All right.

1945
02:06:38,440 --> 02:07:11,920
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

1946
02:07:11,920 --> 02:07:13,240
Renegade podcast.