Episode #103: The Symbology & Significance Of Wine In The Restored Gospel W/Joshua Erickson

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Today we're going to pick back
up on the Word of Wisdom series.

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Later in the series, I plan on
having a fitness expert on to

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talk about exercise and overall
physical health.

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Now if you recall, a few weeks
ago we talked about what the

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Word of Wisdom really says about
the consumption of meat with

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Joshua Erickson.
Well today Joshua comes back on

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the podcast As we talk about
wine, we talk about it's

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prescription in the Word of
Wisdom.

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From there we take an even
deeper dive into what

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constitutes A sacrament.
Then our conversation turns to

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the Old and New Testament as
well as the Book of Mormon to

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see what scripture has to say
about wine and its symbology in

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the restored gospel.
That and more on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse.

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To become and raise men and
women of virtue and character is

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a Herculean task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com.
Go to the bottom of the page,

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search out the blog post, and
order your copy today.

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I can bear personal testimony
from personal experience that

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this is an invaluable tool to
help you raise men and women of

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virtue and character.
OK, just a couple of quick

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announcements here.
If you're looking for a place to

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attend sacrament meeting and
don't know where to go, I want

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you to reach out to me.
Me and others stand ready to

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help you find a spiritual home,
whether that's a new church, a

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gathering spot of independence,
OR even if you just need a soft

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place to land for a time to
learn how to have sacrament

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meeting in your own home.
Myself and others stand ready to

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help you find that place.
All you got to do is just drop

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me a line at
mormonrenegade@gmail.com and

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we'll quickly reach out to you
to help you find the place you

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want and need to be next.
I have felt for a while now that

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the sisters haven't had a good
place to go to have their

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questions answered without a
bunch of dudes creeping around

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to fill this need.
My wife Tanya has set up a

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Facebook group just for women to
talk about questions about

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fundamentalism.
The name of that group is Mormon

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Fundamentalism for Women.
Now, just a warning, if you're a

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dude thinking about trying to
jump on this site, I'm going to

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give this to you in my best Liam
Neeson impression.

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I have a certain set of skills
and I'll find you and I will

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publicly mock you endlessly
without mercy for many, many

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weeks.
So whether you're a

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fundamentalist woman seeking
sisterhood or a woman

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investigating fundamentalism,
this place is for you.

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Again, the name of that Facebook
group is Mormon Fundamentalism

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for Women.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Joshua, dude, it's good to be

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Have you back again, Yeah?
It's always good to be here.

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So when we when we did the the
episode about the word of Wisdom

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and meat, one epic, right, I
just, I went, I went out right

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afterwards and threw steak on
the grill.

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In celebration.
In celebration, right.

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You'd mentioned wine and I was
intrigued.

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Cause 'cause wine is all over
the scriptures and not in a

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prohibitive way, right?
Right.

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It's it's very much a it's there
and and use of symbolism you

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know just off the top of my head
the the blood of the savior

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right the.
Flesh and blood.

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Yeah, exactly.
And it it's it's, you know, even

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a symbol of of the gospel itself
when it talks about new wine and

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old bottles.
And so it's all over the place.

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So as we dive into this, I'm
super excited to see where this

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goes.
It's like meat in the

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scriptures, like, right?
It's all over and and and

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there's gospel symbolism in the
meat.

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And yeah, So.
And the Word of Wisdom has

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something to say about it too,
right?

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Yeah.
And the Word of Wisdom kind of

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like this, I guess this is like
our Word of Wisdom series, Part

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2.
Yeah.

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Word of Wisdom series, Part 2.
Right.

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Yeah.
The, the symbolism about wine is

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is good for the most part.
There's exceptions.

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We can talk about that.
But the Wordism doesn't really

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say what a lot of people think
it says, just kind of kind of

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like the meat too.
So a lot of a lot of those,

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those prohibitions in the Word
of Wisdom or what we think of as

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prohibitions are not actually
prohibitions, but rather it's

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wisdom about how to use these
things in an appropriate manner,

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right?
The other thing about the Word

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of Wisdom that I find very
interesting is that so often we

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think we focus on what we deem
the prohibitives right.

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Don't.
Don't do this, this or this

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right.
And we really don't focus on

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what it tells you to do.
Prescriptions, right?

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Right?
Do this.

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Yeah, do this.
And so I find that very

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interesting as well when it
comes to this.

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Yeah, interesting.
So so with with alcohol in

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general, I think the the usual
latter day St. interpretation of

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the Word of Wisdom is that
alcohol of all varieties is

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prohibited.
For all time and all purposes,

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right?
Yeah, but that's not, that's

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pretty far from what it actually
says, right?

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So I'll just read the the first
part here, Section 89.

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Let's see, of course there's
there's an introduction and and

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it talks about evils and designs
in the last days and so on.

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And and then in verse five is
where really the the

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instructions start.
And it starts off with wine.

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It says in as much as any man
drinketh wine or strong drink

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among you.
Behold, it is not good.

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Neither meet in the sight of
your father, only in assembling

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yourselves together to offer up
your sacraments before him.

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And behold, this should be wine,
yeah, pure wine of the grape, of

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the vine, of your own make.
And again, strong drinks are not

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for the belly, but for the
washing of your bodies.

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So.
So those opening verses have to

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do with.
Alcohol, right.

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So a couple of things first
First kind of misconception I

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guess is is when we when the
average latter day St. reads

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this and reads strong drink,
what do you think the like

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what's the?
The interpretation of strong

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drink, wine and strong drink, I
would think Liquor, OK, liquor.

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That's good.
I agree with that.

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Actually.
I think, I think for many people

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they would interpret that as
alcohol in general.

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And maybe people don't know that
there's a difference between

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there are different kinds of
alcoholic beverages, right.

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And liquor is what it's
referring to when it says strong

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drinks, so.
OK.

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So what is the difference?
So you know so how are, how are,

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how is wine and other alcoholic
beverages made?

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Well, you have something that
has sugars in it like fruits

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like apples or grapes or or
honey or whatever malt, barley

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malt or whatever.
And then and then you you have

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yeast that's added to it either
nowadays often times the yeast

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is like kind of cultured
separately from.

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The fruit or whatever.
And then those things are mixed

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together.
And then the yeast, the yeast

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eats up the sugar and produces
ethanol.

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And that's where the alcohol
comes from.

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So that first step where you add
the yeast and the yeast does its

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thing, it produces the alcohol,
but it also produces a bunch of

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other things too.
It gets rid of the sugar, for

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one, or reduces the sugar.
And also there's a bunch of

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vitamins and you know.
Enzymes, antioxidants, and all

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these other good things that
come from all kinds of fermented

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foods.
OK, so that first step is called

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fermentation.
And that's where wine and cider

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and Mead and beer and ale.
Those are all things that the

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Word of Wisdom calls mild
drinks.

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These are things that are
fermented.

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OK, now the strong drink.
Wait, they weren't drinking

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wheat grass, smoothies and
Joseph Smith's time?

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That's not the kind of grain
based drinks they were talking

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about.
Oh, no, no, I don't think so.

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I think it's pretty clear that
the mild drinks.

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So this goes over to verse 17.
OK, And we can talk.

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That was a good time to mention
that, I guess.

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But yeah, so that's actually the
read. 17.

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Nevertheless, wheat for man, and
corn for the ox, and oats for

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the horse, and rye for the
fowls, and for swine, and for

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all beasts of the field.
And barley for all use for

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animals and for mild drinks as
also other grain.

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So barley and other grain are
useful for making mild drinks,

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it says.
And those are those are

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recommended for our consumption.
Yeah.

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And that's absolutely just good
old fashioned beer and it's many

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varieties and you know, a lot of
sometimes there's a lot of

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people feel like they have to.
Make excuses or explanations for

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Joseph Smith and the early
brethren drinking beer.

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You know what I'm saying?
Joseph Smith's journals and

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stuff like that, you know?
But there's really, there's

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really no contradiction with the
word wisdom.

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In fact, it's totally in line,
right?

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Well, if I'm not mistaken, I
think what were the two things

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that Joseph sent for as he was
in Carthage?

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I know wine, wine and he asked
for a couple of pipes.

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OK.
Yeah, Yeah.

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Yeah.
And so you you you look at that

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and you're like, how am I
supposed to square this, right?

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Yeah, it's it's almost like we
pretend it doesn't exist.

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Right.
That's not part of the the

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normal narrative.
No.

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No it's not.
We're not always going.

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Yeah, interesting.
So OK, So what is the difference

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between a fermented beverage,
which is a mild drink, and a

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strong drink?
It is a separate process.

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That process is distillation.
So mild drinks are fermented,

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strong drinks are fermented and
then distilled, and so distilled

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liquor are things like whiskey,
vodka and rum and Brandy and so

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on.
And when you distill fermented

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things, you really actually
remove.

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All the You actually remove all
the nutrition 100%.

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There's no vitamins, there's no
minerals, there's no

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antioxidants, there's no enzymes
or whatever other healthy

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things.
The only thing that comes out of

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the distillation is alcohol, and
there'll be water as well that

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comes over.
And you know some like aroma and

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flavor molecules and some of
those could be, you know, you

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could argue those, some of those
things are.

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Have health benefits, but not
really.

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I mean the purpose of distilling
things is to make them strong

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and the usual use of those
things is to get drunk like that

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is that is the purpose of
distilled or strong strong

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drinks.
Now I will say though that even

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the word wisdom doesn't actually
forbid strong drinks, it

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actually well what it does is
gives their proper use and it

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says strong drinks are for.
The washing of your bodies and

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whether whether we realize that
or not, we do that.

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You know we use alcohol for hand
sanitizer and mouthwash, right?

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And those, those are just two
examples of a physical aspect of

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washing your bodies.
Now, I do think there's a

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spiritual aspect to that as
well, which we'll get to later,

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but a Sacramento aspect.
Gotcha anyway.

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OK, so that's important to to
realize here that when when it

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says alcohol, when it says
strong drinks, it is not giving

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us a it's it's not telling us to
avoid alcohol, it's just telling

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us to avoid whiskey and Brandy
and things like that.

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00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,360
OK, so that's important.
And it's important too, to

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00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,160
realize that when you read the
scriptures.

229
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,080
Drinking alcohol is actually
never forbidden.

230
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,120
But I'll tell you what is
forbidden and what is frowned

231
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:05,160
upon Drunkenness, right?
So it's really the excess.

232
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:12,520
And this is true of so many,
many things, you know, So many

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00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,640
things in this world are just
kind of neutral and have.

234
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,280
Good and evil uses, right?
The Internet.

235
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,680
That's a perfect example, right?
Podcasts, right?

236
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,000
For example, Right, right,
right, right.

237
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,960
You can use the Internet to be
uplifted, or you can use it to

238
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,240
find porn.
It's up to you.

239
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,480
That's exactly right.
So and there's this argument

240
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:41,000
rages about all kinds of things.
Guns is another one.

241
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,720
That's.
Commonly debated, right?

242
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,120
But these are, you know, the
Internet and guns and alcohol,

243
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:47,680
These are all just inanimate
objects.

244
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,680
And there's a there's an agent
behind those things who's making

245
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,680
choices one way or another.
So even things that we, even

246
00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:02,080
things that we might normally
think of as good, can certainly

247
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:03,840
be abused, you know?
Right.

248
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,160
Are churches good?
Sure.

249
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,040
But they can also be bad, right?
I mean, Oh yeah.

250
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:11,040
Right.
Yeah.

251
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,800
So that's naming names.
Right.

252
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,720
Without naming names, right.
All their creeds were an

253
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:28,280
abomination.
OK, so OK, so another

254
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,960
misunderstanding.
OK, And this is in those verses

255
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,360
there, actually, let's see verse
five.

256
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:42,000
OK, it says wine is.
Wine and strong drinks are not

257
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,360
generally good.
But when you assemble yourselves

258
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,080
together to offer up your
sacraments.

259
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,360
Sacraments, That's right.
And it's not sacrament, It's

260
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,960
sacraments.
So what in the world is a

261
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,800
sacraments?
Well, I What are sacraments?

262
00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,400
To be more grammatically
correct, yeah, I think.

263
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,520
I think in looking at it, you
can look at weddings, wedding

264
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:03,880
feasts.
That's right.

265
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:09,160
You can look at baptisms.
You can look and and I I guess I

266
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,440
should say, and whether I'm
right or wrong here, I'm willing

267
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,160
to be wrong if someone can show
me this.

268
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,000
But I don't see where the
extension of the actual

269
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,520
ordinance wouldn't be part of
the sacraments, right?

270
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,160
So you have a wedding and then
you have a wedding feast.

271
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,600
That is part of the sacrament.
That's exactly right, the

272
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,200
baptism.
I don't see why a celebration

273
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,040
would not attend part of that,
right?

274
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,600
Right.
And then.

275
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:42,400
And then I I've even come to
this as I've thought about this.

276
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:49,600
You have sacraments that are
institutional, if you will, OK,

277
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,320
marriages, baptisms, those sorts
of things.

278
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,560
But I think you could even make
a case that is your wedding

279
00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,800
anniversary a sacrament.
Yeah, I, you know, we know that

280
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,200
the Lord is big on remembering,
right?

281
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,119
And and and you know, going back
to the beginning, we see that in

282
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:09,160
the feast days.
Yeah.

283
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,240
Amen.
And so it those are nothing more

284
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:17,480
than anniversary celebrations.
So if if that's a sacrament,

285
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:22,640
then why is not your union to
your wife a sacrament?

286
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,800
Maybe birthdays.
I, I it just goes on and on,

287
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,680
right.
And so it it's one of those

288
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:36,120
things that as I look at, I
think we're really too almost

289
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:39,680
pharasitical in some ways about
what is and what isn't.

290
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,880
And the issue what what makes it
pharasitical is that it gets

291
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:50,080
really hard to say, you know
where it is in scripture that it

292
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:57,040
shouldn't be done right.
And in my opinion, it becomes

293
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,200
more the traditions of men than
anything else.

294
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,680
Yeah, I like that, you know, I
think.

295
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,760
One of the amazing things about
the Word of Wisdom is it says

296
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,400
right when you're talking about
why it says it should be of your

297
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,960
own make, which kind of like
just puts the it's of your own

298
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,240
make.
And it is for Sacramento

299
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:24,280
purposes.
And I think there really is.

300
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:30,800
I like what you said there about
there are institutional

301
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:32,560
sacraments, but there can also
be.

302
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:37,840
Familial sacraments, right.
And and each, you know, each

303
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,840
head of the household is going
to kind of determine that.

304
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:42,880
And I think that is their
prerogative actually.

305
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,320
And so I like that and I think
that goes right along with

306
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,840
making your own.
And I think this is a, this is a

307
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,120
this is a message of the word of
wisdom.

308
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:57,480
At least this part is, is this
personal responsibility.

309
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,360
I know a lot of times people
look at the of your own make and

310
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:06,840
they think it's.
It's to avoid poison, and we'll

311
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,120
get more to that later.
But I I don't think it has as

312
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,960
much to do with avoiding poison
as it does have to do with

313
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:19,400
taking spiritual responsibility
for your own religion and your

314
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,280
own worship.
Oh, that's fascinating.

315
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,840
So wait to get into that.
OK, so let me go.

316
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,640
Let's go.
Just keep you on this theme of

317
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:27,200
sacraments.
Here.

318
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,040
I have I have here in front of
me Webster's 1828.

319
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:37,200
Definition of the word Sacrament
So definition one.

320
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,400
Among ancient Christian writers,
a mystery sacrament is a

321
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,960
mystery.
Two, an oath, a ceremony

322
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:52,920
producing an obligation. 3 In
present usage, an outward and

323
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,400
visible sign of an inward and
spiritual grace, or more

324
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,200
particularly, a solemn religious
ceremony enjoined by Christ.

325
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,080
Ahead of the Christian Church,
to be observed by his followers,

326
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:06,200
by which their special relation
to him is created, or their

327
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,280
obligations to him renewed and
ratified.

328
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:14,440
Thus Baptism is called a
sacrament, for by it persons are

329
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,720
separated from the world,
brought into Christ's visible

330
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,160
Church, and laid under
particular obligations to obey

331
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,080
his precepts.
The Eucharist, or communion of

332
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,680
the Lord's Supper is also a
sacrament, for by commemorating

333
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,440
the death and dying love of
Christ, Christians avow their

334
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,240
special relation to him and
renew their obligations to be

335
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,280
faithful to their divine master.
So there we go.

336
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,480
You know, the first one is a
mystery, second one is an oath

337
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,560
or ceremony producing an
obligation.

338
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:47,640
And #3 is I'm going to kind of
shorten it down here, but it is

339
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,480
a let's see, where is it?
A solemn religious ceremony

340
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,360
which you know creates a special
relation to Christ.

341
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:04,600
So in you know our our language
has has changed in in Mormonism

342
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,600
what Webster's 1828 which was
the usage in the Doctrine

343
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,320
covenants of the word sacrament
kind of reflected this.

344
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,160
Now our our language has changed
and now for these things we use

345
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,120
the word ordinance.
We say baptism is an ordinance

346
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:28,880
and the sacrament of the Lord's
Supper is an ordinance and

347
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,880
priesthood ordination is an
ordinance and marriage is an

348
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,200
ordinance and so on.
And so we've kind of lost

349
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,280
connection to what the scripture
is actually saying because our

350
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:43,720
vocabulary has changed.
But yeah, not until the 4th

351
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:50,640
definition in Webster's, as it
say, the Eucharist or the Lord's

352
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,000
Supper, which is what we would
in LDS terms, we would call the

353
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,080
sacrament.
But in the broader Christian

354
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:02,040
context, the more proper term
for that is the sacrament of the

355
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,920
Lord's Supper, OK.
And so like in in Catholicism,

356
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:11,680
they still refer to what the LDS
folks would say, ordinances.

357
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,960
The Catholic Church and the RLDS
Church calls these things

358
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,880
sacraments.
So.

359
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,760
So that's exactly right.
So there's all kinds of things,

360
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,280
and you mentioned a bunch of
them.

361
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:30,000
You know the the very first
miracle that Jesus does.

362
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,640
Turns water into wine.
Water into wine.

363
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,120
Yeah, same.
Same miracle as Moses.

364
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:41,240
Like the very first one, right?
Water into blood and and And

365
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,920
what was the occasion?
It was a wedding.

366
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,560
It was a wedding feast.
The wedding?

367
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,640
Yep, Yep.
And you know, the the bride and

368
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:54,000
groom are hotly disputed, as in
that in that count in John.

369
00:22:54,360 --> 00:23:00,440
But regardless, that was that
was a sacrament.

370
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:06,640
And that was a perfectly that
use of wine that the Savior did

371
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,160
was actually perfectly in line
with the Word of Wisdom, which

372
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:20,800
is as we expect, OK, but it is
strange, I would say, that our

373
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,000
modern definitions and
understanding of the Word of

374
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,840
Wisdom has crept to the point
where we would we would now

375
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,960
consider the Savior's actions
questionable, wouldn't we?

376
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,160
Oh, we we 100% would, I mean
without a doubt and that's

377
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,640
that's been my contention on
this for for a while and and I'm

378
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,280
going to zoom out here for a
little bit to maybe a 1500 foot

379
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,920
view if you will.
Through our practice, we have

380
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,600
changed what the Word of Wisdom
is.

381
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,640
If, if if you look at the very
opening statement, the Lord goes

382
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,400
out of his way to say that this
isn't a commandment, let's let's

383
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,240
get that straight right now.
He He opens it by making that

384
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,520
distinction.
Now, I'm not saying that you

385
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:12,440
discount any of the Lord's words
whatsoever, but there's a reason

386
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,360
he put that in there as well.
He also says who it's designed

387
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:20,880
for.
Right, which is probably someone

388
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,960
like me who's got an addictive
personality, right?

389
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:30,000
I I don't think it is a
commandment and I don't think

390
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,360
it's a rule that can be applied
universally.

391
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,320
And we know it wasn't
universally asked on recommend

392
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,080
questions till till Grant and
prohibition.

393
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:50,240
Yeah, well, and you know what
too even that it's.

394
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:59,440
I believe that the questions, as
far as adherence goes, don't

395
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,320
actually reflect what the what
the verses say.

396
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:09,480
So it's we're asking people to
keep a standard, keep the Word

397
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,800
of Wisdom in quotes, which is
not even the which is not the

398
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,040
Word of Wisdom.
It's not what the word wisdom

399
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:16,640
says.
No.

400
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,040
It does say not to use tobacco.
It does say hot drinks.

401
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:27,000
I have my opinion about that.
I think it is just referring to

402
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:32,000
the temperature.
I'll just say it and and

403
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,080
prohibition on alcohol is
actually not a thing in the word

404
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,480
wisdom.
Well, and and even tobacco, it

405
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,600
gives a few.
Oh yeah, says It's just for an

406
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,600
herb to be used for bruises,
sick cattle.

407
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,000
And you know, it's great for.
It's great for sick people too.

408
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,760
It's super good anti parasite.
Do you remember back in 2014

409
00:25:54,760 --> 00:26:00,280
when we had when there was that
massive Ebola outbreak going on

410
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,560
in South Africa and we had a
couple of doctors come home that

411
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,200
were really sick?
Did you ever hear about the

412
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,520
therapeutic with that?
No.

413
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,040
Oh, this is fascinating.
So you can still find this

414
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,520
article both on Fox News and
CNN.

415
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,840
OK, they had all the compounds
there.

416
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,560
They were trying to make it
therapeutic, right?

417
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,720
Because Ebola's got like a 98%
death rate, A death sentence.

418
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,640
Basically, you're not coming out
of it.

419
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,360
Well, this one pharmaceutical
company had said we got all the

420
00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:34,640
compounds, we just can't get
them to it here to to stick

421
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,800
together.
To long enough to to do what it

422
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,680
needs to do.
So they looked high and low for

423
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,160
a chemical that would help it
make it adhere.

424
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,520
Well, they found a couple, but
they were also toxic and so they

425
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,800
were actually debating on on
what they should do here and

426
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,680
someone says I think that
compound's found in a tobacco

427
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,000
leaf, OK.
So they took all the other

428
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,880
compounds and they injected it
into a live tobacco plant.

429
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,400
And within 48 hours, they were
able to extract the therapeutic.

430
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,920
And all those doctors lived.
No way.

431
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,240
I kid you not.
OK, I'll have to look that up.

432
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,520
Look I'll, I'll give you the
article before I leave.

433
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,680
But yeah, it's that was the
therapeutic at which they were

434
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,080
able to administer and and they
they nursed him through it.

435
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,520
They were still really, really
sick.

436
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,640
Right.
I don't want you to think they

437
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,080
were taking a shot out of this,
but by injecting it into the

438
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,800
tobacco leaf and then extracting
it.

439
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,480
It was able to to save a few
lives.

440
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:42,320
So I love that I think so much
of the gospel actually is is not

441
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,800
not strictly or not in not in.
All in all, I'm stumbling over

442
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,920
my words here.
We we like to sometimes think of

443
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,560
the gospel as a list of do's and
don'ts.

444
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:03,760
But I think very often it's it's
more like a a list of what is

445
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,440
the proper use of things.
Not that one thing is forbidden

446
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,920
always or another thing is
acceptable always, but learning

447
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,200
in what context a thing is
acceptable and in what context

448
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,280
it is not.
And so that's kind of a mature

449
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,800
skill I think, to be able to
pull that out of the scriptures

450
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:34,320
for things you know.
Absolutely so anyway, so Jesus

451
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,800
first miracle was turning water
to wine.

452
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,560
And sometimes I like to joke
that Hebrew grant did him one

453
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:52,440
better and turned it back.
That was so in in 1921.

454
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,280
This is a good year for the word
wisdom.

455
00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:02,720
I guess in 1921, that's when
abstinence from wine, That's

456
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,440
when sacrament was officially
water.

457
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,800
Right.
Yep, and that's when abstinence

458
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,800
from wine, even for Sacramento
purposes, became compulsory.

459
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,920
I wonder what was going on in
society at that time, Josh.

460
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,920
Like in the 1920s, Yeah.
I'm drawing a blank.

461
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,680
I don't know.
Do a Google search.

462
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:34,120
OK, we all know, I think
fundamentalists especially love

463
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,760
Isaiah 24 because, you know, it
says the earth also is defiled

464
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,800
under defiled under the
inhabitants thereof because they

465
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,720
have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinance, broken

466
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,680
the everlasting covenant.
OK, And then, you know this

467
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,400
starts at verse 5 and it goes on
through.

468
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,120
But if you keep reading, like
for through verse 11, I'll just

469
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,960
pull out a couple pieces.
There Isaiah's talking about the

470
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,200
changing transgressing of the
law, changing the ordinance and

471
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,600
breaking the covenant.
And he says also in this stream

472
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,600
of thought here that the new
wine mourneth the vine

473
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,640
languisheth.
All the merry hearted do sigh.

474
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,880
They shall not drink wine with a
song.

475
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,440
Strong drink shall be bitter to
them.

476
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,360
To drink it.
There's a crying for wine in the

477
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,920
streets.
All joy is darkness.

478
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,680
The mirth of the land is gone.
Wow, so these these things that

479
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,960
he says here where basically the
use of wine is has been put

480
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:39,520
aside, this is a sign or at
least a a symptom or a a

481
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,240
repercussion of the ordinance
being changed.

482
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,880
OK.
Wow.

483
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,440
And the law being transgressed
and so on.

484
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,040
And so, I mean, you as
fundamentalists, we usually just

485
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,680
think this is talking about or
something, right?

486
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,960
Right and and now, but it's just
but the the next lines that

487
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,840
Isaiah does just connect it with
wine.

488
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,320
Right.
And and look, could it be

489
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,760
symbolic?
Sure.

490
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,920
But it could also be literal,
especially given our history

491
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:12,520
now.
Right.

492
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:18,960
I I think we have to look at it
maybe with a little more of a

493
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,120
textualist mindset.
Yeah, right where we say.

494
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,640
He could be talking about
something very real.

495
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,560
That's right.
So, OK, so back to sacraments

496
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,680
and weddings and so on.
There is evidence for this in

497
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,080
our own history.
So January 1836, I believe this

498
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:44,760
was the first set of marriages
performed in this dispensation.

499
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,160
Joseph Smith performed marriage
of John Webb to Catherine Wilcox

500
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,400
and also Thomas Carico to
Elizabeth Baker.

501
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,960
This is in History of the Church
volume to page 369.

502
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,640
So they have this double wedding
and then afterwards it was

503
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,040
reported that the wedding party
then quote partook of some

504
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,880
refreshments and our hearts were
made glad with the fruit of the

505
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,800
vine.
This Joseph Smith says this is

506
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:19,080
in accordance with the pattern
set by our Savior Himself, and

507
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,680
we feel disposed to patronize
all the institutions of heaven.

508
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:31,000
Now now see, that's a little
different, right before, before

509
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,720
the Isaiah verses and that quote
by Joseph Smith, I think we

510
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,000
could say, well, it's kind of,
you know, here.

511
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,480
There's just like freedom into
it or something.

512
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:39,200
Right.
Yeah.

513
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,480
Now, now it seems to be like,
no, no.

514
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,760
The use of wine in this was kind
of directed right?

515
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,480
I would say so.
And and so if the way Joseph

516
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,600
made that sound is is if we want
to keep all the ordinances in

517
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,160
heaven, this is kind of part of
them.

518
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,920
Am I misunderstanding that?
That is exactly right?

519
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:06,680
So now in in the Word of Wisdom,
In the Word of Wisdom it is It

520
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,600
is not given by commandment or
constraint.

521
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,160
But we can see that the Lord
says it's pleasing to Him.

522
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,760
Actually, you know, in verse
five it says, let's see.

523
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,560
So in verse five it says it's
not good to, you know, be

524
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,880
partaking of wine or strong
drink, except when you assemble

525
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,360
yourselves together to offer
pure sacraments.

526
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,840
Then it is good, right?
Then it is pleasing, and this

527
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,040
it's not.
But still the language is not

528
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,600
commandment, it's just pleasing
the Lord.

529
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,800
And I mean, I mean that that
alone is enough, maybe that we

530
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,240
want to please the Lord and then
we also we want the blessing

531
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,760
too.
So you know, the Word of Wisdom

532
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,440
has blessings attached to it,
right?

533
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,040
So as those who do these things
and keep the commandments, we'll

534
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,880
have all those things that the
Word of Wisdom mentions at the

535
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,040
end there.
So I mean, that's two good

536
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,320
reasons right there.
But I am going to contend that

537
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,159
at least this part of it, wine
for the sacraments is a

538
00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:14,560
commanded thing.
Now certainly if we look at the

539
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:20,320
Old Testament sacraments or
ordinances, wine was explicitly

540
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,320
commanded for many of those
things.

541
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:28,239
The offerings that were made,
they would offer an animal and

542
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,159
along with the animal there was
always bread and wine as part of

543
00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:38,679
it or or flour, you know, some
kind of grain and wine offered

544
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,520
as well.
And those were certainly

545
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,040
commanded things.
And I think, and I think I'm

546
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,960
going to make an argument here,
that the other sacraments have

547
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,840
that as a commanded component as
well.

548
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,159
So let me ask some questions
here.

549
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:56,000
Let me play the other side of
this argument here, OK?

550
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,400
Why wouldn't the Lord just say,
well, just have water?

551
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,720
With your celebrations, water's
more readily available, right?

552
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,280
I think there can be an argument
made of, you know, purity of

553
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,920
water and those sorts of things.
And you don't have the risk of

554
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,400
intoxication.
Yeah.

555
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,960
Why wine?
Why wine?

556
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:27,200
I think wine is, I mean wine in.
And again, this is in

557
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,920
moderation, so I don't want
again, I said it before already,

558
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:36,600
but I'm just going to reiterate
that I am not approving of or

559
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:43,160
justifying drunkenness.
So wine in moderation is and

560
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,240
always has been just this symbol
of joy.

561
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,400
Actually, I have a reverse here.
Where was it?

562
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:07,520
Well, Psalm.
This is Psalm one O 414 through

563
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:12,160
15 talking about the blessings
that God gives to us in

564
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,960
abundance.
He causes the grass to grow for

565
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,280
the cattle, and herb for the
service of man, that He may

566
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,520
bring forth food out of the
earth, and wine that maketh

567
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,920
glad, the heart of man, and oil
to make his face shine, and

568
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,080
bread with bread which
strengtheneth his heart.

569
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:36,520
So the wine is just connected to
glad hearts and joy, and has

570
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,640
always, has always been a symbol
of that, and not only for man.

571
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,160
So Psalm 104 says for man, but I
love this verse from Judges.

572
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:50,160
Judges 913 says this is actually
from the the parable of the

573
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:56,280
parable of the trees.
OK, but the the Grapevine is you

574
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,000
know, they want to make him king
over the trees and he says no, I

575
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,880
shouldn't be king of the trees
but stick to making wine which

576
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,600
he says which cheareth both God
and man.

577
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:14,120
So which is quite a thing to say
if your God has no body parts or

578
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,040
passions.
But so wine cheers both God and

579
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,120
man.
So what?

580
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,920
This is where I'm going to
irritate some people, but I'm

581
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,120
used to it by now.
So let's let's let's run with

582
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,520
this.
So as a guy who was a pretty

583
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:38,040
accomplished drinker in his day,
there is difference in the

584
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,800
spirits that you partake of.
OK, there just are.

585
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,480
There's a reason whiskey fueled
the West.

586
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,480
And all the murderous rampages
that happen there.

587
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:58,480
There is something about wine in
the right context where I

588
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,800
wouldn't even call it a buzz,
but it does loosen things up a

589
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:10,240
little bit, does allow for maybe
a greater feeling of love and

590
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,520
camaraderie.
It helps the walls come down a

591
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,040
little bit.
And when the Lord says, make.

592
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:16,840
Make it the heart.
Glad.

593
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:19,880
I think that's what he's
referring to.

594
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,400
Oh yeah.
Right.

595
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,680
It it does, you know, even even
just one glass.

596
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:30,080
Or as as you drink wine more and
more, you become more accustomed

597
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,960
to it, A couple glasses and all
of a sudden, you know, you got

598
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:38,560
people hugging it out, right?
Not in a drunken stupor, right?

599
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,400
I I don't want to present that.
And I know this is foreign for a

600
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,720
lot of people, especially my LDS
listenership.

601
00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:48,200
I get that.
But if you're ever at a wedding

602
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,680
feast, just watch, just watch.
After about the second glass,

603
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,720
the smart ones back off, but
everyone's a little more loving

604
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:58,440
and and the hearts are a little
fuller.

605
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,520
And I think that's why the Lord
prescribes this, right?

606
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,840
Not just says it's OK, but says
use this, use this.

607
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,880
It does produce kind of an
altered state of consciousness,

608
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,760
but I'm not sure that's always a
bad thing.

609
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,200
Oh yeah.
And so I think this is one of

610
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,080
those times where the Lord is
like let some of those walls

611
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,000
come down.
Let the hearts speak to each

612
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,680
other and and rejoice in that.
Yeah.

613
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:31,160
You know growing up latter day
St., the the line that I was

614
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:37,080
always kind of taught or either
whether implicitly or explicitly

615
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:45,680
was you know if you if someday
you stray and you end up taking

616
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:50,120
a sip of wine like you're going
to go you're going to become an

617
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,440
alcoholic you know and there it
goes your life's just going to

618
00:39:54,440 --> 00:40:00,720
get flushed down the toilet and
and so so this this will be

619
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:03,400
strange to some of your
listeners to to hear this but

620
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:10,640
but that did not happen.
OK, and my my.

621
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:17,200
You know, dipping my toe into
the waters, so to speak, of, of

622
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:22,320
making my own wine for
Sacramento purposes was done

623
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,720
with much trepidation, like very
cautious about it.

624
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,720
But you know nothing of the
nothing of the sort has happened

625
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:36,280
and I actually think that that
that kind of teaching is

626
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,440
actually quite dangerous.
It's hugely dangerous.

627
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,760
Because what what you've done
now is that rather than give an

628
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,160
example of what moderation looks
like and temperance and those

629
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,200
sorts of things, true
temperance, all you've done is

630
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,000
created forbidden fruit for your
youth.

631
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,320
Yeah.
And that's that's a dangerous

632
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,000
component as well.
Oh yeah, it's, it's, I mentioned

633
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,880
guns earlier.
It's like it's like making the

634
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,040
guns forbidden in the house and
never teaching the children how

635
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,720
to use it and then you're just
asking for a disaster.

636
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,080
But the the safest way to have
guns is to teach them how to use

637
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,440
it responsibly to be, to be, to
be safe and let them know that

638
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,760
they they can and you know, use
the gun.

639
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,040
You just ask the parents, you
know, under the parents

640
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,600
supervision or whatever.
So anyway, I think that's, yeah,

641
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,200
that's just a lesson that can be
applied in so many ways.

642
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:44,240
So OK, before before I move on,
I actually just want to go back

643
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:49,400
a little bit and just talk about
sacraments because it in the

644
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,520
word wisdom says wine or strong
drink is not good except for in

645
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,920
your sacraments.
So you know, wine is kind of

646
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,360
obvious, I think because you
know, we we have the wedding

647
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,840
feast at Cana.
We have the sacrament of the

648
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,120
Lord's Supper.
We have those things in the Old

649
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,000
Testament, you know, and
Passover.

650
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,240
Some people are familiar with
that, like wine is a part of

651
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:09,640
those ceremonies.
But what about the strong

652
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,000
drinks?
Interesting there is, there is a

653
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:19,400
temple ordinance that the
mainstream church at least has

654
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,520
lost, and I think most
fundamentalists have lost this

655
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,080
as well.
I don't know if I can speak for

656
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,760
all of them, but there was there
was in former times an ordinance

657
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,520
in between washing and anointing
called the Ordinance of

658
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:37,600
Purification, and we have a
couple of accounts of that, so

659
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,040
I'll just read one here.
This is from Oliver Cowdery's

660
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:46,000
sketchbook, January 16th, 1836,
says.

661
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,240
And after pure water was
prepared, we called upon the

662
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:56,360
Lord and proceeded to wash each
other's bodies and bathe the

663
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,240
same with whiskey perfumed with
cinnamon.

664
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,200
This we did, that we might be
clean before the Lord for the

665
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,840
Sabbath, confessing our sins,
And he goes on.

666
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:14,040
Wilfred Woodruff's journal has
an an account of this ordinance

667
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,760
as well.
But this I think is actually,

668
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,080
you know, the deeper meaning of
what verse five in the Word of

669
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,480
Wisdom is talking about with
strong drinks for Sacramento

670
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,200
purposes.
And it says for the washing of

671
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,360
her bodies.
And this is actually this is

672
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:37,360
actually Temple stuff there
that's it's kind of a a part of

673
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:43,560
the washing anyway.
So I just want to put that out

674
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:44,840
there.
I've.

675
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,520
I've heard of the the proverbial
cinnamon whiskey bath.

676
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,960
Yeah.
And people have to understand

677
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,440
this also filled a very.
Practical part, right?

678
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,720
Because this is given in a time
where people weren't bathing

679
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:06,080
real regularly.
And if it was winter, if it was

680
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,360
winter, you weren't bathing
until late spring, right?

681
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:14,160
And so you wouldn't want to file
the Lord's house that way.

682
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,080
And however, I think it deserves
a second look because it was in

683
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,040
there, right?
And and it it it deserves.

684
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,200
It deserves scholarly attention
for sure.

685
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:32,800
OK, All right.
Now, so you said what I think

686
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,320
earlier.
You said something like, why

687
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,520
doesn't the Lord just come out
and say use wine for these

688
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,080
things?
Did you ask a question kind of

689
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,200
like that?
No, I said.

690
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,480
Why not use water?
Oh, right.

691
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:43,560
No, we use water.
That's what you said.

692
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:49,480
OK, OK, so actually I asked.
So I when I when I started

693
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,320
actually reading what the
scriptures say and decided to

694
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:57,160
start making wine, I still kind
of kept it on the down low and

695
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:04,000
but I kind of polled this is an
informal poll of people and I

696
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,880
asked this question.
I think it's telling.

697
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:11,800
I said if if the first
presidency came to you, OK, so

698
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,680
I'm taking the authority out of
it, OK They came to you and

699
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,280
asked you and they said, you
know we're thinking of going

700
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,160
back to wine for the sacrament
and you know you get to make the

701
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:30,520
decision what what do you think?
And the responses I got were are

702
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,920
quite telling.
So some some people are like,

703
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,200
like, so I asked my siblings and
some of my siblings are like,

704
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:45,200
well, I guess, you know, if it's
up to me, I guess so you know,

705
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,840
that might be OK And and some of
my siblings are like, yeah,

706
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,800
that's what scriptures say.
And some of my siblings are

707
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,640
like, says no way like I would
have to like Jesus would have to

708
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,640
tell me that that's OK Yeah, I
would.

709
00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:05,840
There would have to be a
revelation from Jesus and and my

710
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:07,280
thought was did.
He already give you one?

711
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,560
Oh all yeah, a dozen times
there's a revelation from Jesus

712
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,240
saying wine.
The interesting thing is that in

713
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:21,240
the scriptures, every single
time the Lord's Supper at least

714
00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:27,240
is mentioned, it is always bread
and wine that are not just

715
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:30,280
recommended, that is, that is
what's commanded, always.

716
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,640
And every time where the
sacrament of the Lord's Supper

717
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,440
is partaken, it's always
recorded that that is what was

718
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,840
used.
And water is never recommended.

719
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,840
Nope, never recommended.
So.

720
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:52,400
So where do we get, you know,
where do we get that?

721
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,920
Of course, it comes from section
27.

722
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,760
We'll get, you know.
Well, we'll get to that in a

723
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,840
minute.
But just as an example of a

724
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:09,440
commandment.
So this is in 3rd Nephi 18.

725
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,360
Jesus is there discoursing with
the Nephites and giving them

726
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,160
instructions for various things,
and he gives them instructions

727
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:22,120
on the Lord's Supper as well.
This is in I said third Nephi 18

728
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:27,000
starting at verse 8.
And it came to pass, that when

729
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,240
he said these words, he
commanded his disciples, that

730
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:35,360
they should take of the wine of
the cup and drink of it, and

731
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,560
that they should also give it
unto the multitude, that they

732
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,360
might drink of it.
And it came to pass that they

733
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,760
did so, and did drink of it, and
were filled.

734
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,240
And they gave unto the
multitude, and they did drink,

735
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:50,120
and they were filled.
And when the disciples had done

736
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:54,000
this, Jesus said unto them,
Blessed are ye for this thing

737
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,000
which ye have done.
For this is fulfilling my

738
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,800
commandments, and skipping to
verse 11 And this shall ye

739
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,600
always do to those who repent,
and are baptized in my name.

740
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,240
Verse 12 And I give unto you a
commandment, that ye shall do

741
00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:12,200
these things.
And if ye shall always do these

742
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:17,280
things, blessed are ye. 13 But
whoso among you shall do more,

743
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,600
or less than these are not built
upon my rock, but are built upon

744
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,800
a sandy foundation.
Verse 14 Therefore blessed are

745
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,840
ye if ye shall keep my
commandments.

746
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:33,480
So doing any more or less than
what Jesus said, put you on a

747
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,080
sandy foundation.
And I think it is.

748
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:46,800
The irony is so incredibly thick
that when we partake of the

749
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,160
sacrament, and I mean this for
most Mormons, so the entire LDS

750
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,280
church and I've been to, I'm
going to call out some people

751
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,760
here.
I've been to the AUB, their

752
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,280
sacrament meetings.
I've been to Peterson group,

753
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:07,840
I've been to, I know the
Kingstons, I know most of the

754
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:09,880
big groups.
They just use water.

755
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:19,200
And yet we have this not as a
recommendation, a word wism, but

756
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,920
a direct command to do this and
to always do this.

757
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,560
And then the irony is so thick
because we're take this, we take

758
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,880
this water and just and like
while we're saying and always

759
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,480
remember him and keep his
commandments, which he has given

760
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,840
them, right.
So we're like promising to keep

761
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,880
his commandments while we're
not, right?

762
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,480
That's a good point.
That's a very good point.

763
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:46,320
While we are changing the
ordinance, it's it's amazing,

764
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,600
but we don't think about it, you
know, in those terms because.

765
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,680
Right now, isn't there someplace
in the scripture that said that

766
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:56,320
you could use different?
OK, emblems or not emblems, but

767
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,960
different materials, so to
speak.

768
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:05,880
So that's Section 27.
OK, OK, so here's the story,

769
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:06,720
right?
Joseph.

770
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,760
Joseph is going to a meeting.
He's going to get wine for the

771
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,920
meeting.
He's met by a heavenly

772
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:17,360
messenger.
OK, And the Angel says, this is

773
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,560
a Section 27 starting at verse
2.

774
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,720
For behold, I say unto you, that
it mattereth not what you shall

775
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:26,160
eat, or what you shall drink
when you partake of the

776
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:31,520
sacrament, if it so be that you
do it with an eye single to my

777
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,520
glory, remembering unto the
Father my body which was laid

778
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,960
down for you, and my blood which
was shed for the remission of

779
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,840
your sins.
Wherefore A commandment I give

780
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,000
unto you, that you shall not
purchase wine, neither strong

781
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,960
drink of your enemies.
Wherefore you shall partake of

782
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,600
none except it is made new among
you.

783
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,720
Yeah, in this my father's
Kingdom, which shall be built up

784
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:59,920
on the earth.
So there it is.

785
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:04,560
We're all kind of familiar with
that, But do you know what

786
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:11,080
happened after?
So I've actually read this in

787
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,200
more than one place.
And your listeners, if you've

788
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,400
studied this, you've probably
read this too.

789
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:20,880
You've probably read that the
this was the beginning of the

790
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,080
use of water.
I've read that before.

791
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:29,600
Or you know that OK, Joseph got
this revelation and so instead

792
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,280
of going to get wine, they just
had their meeting with water or

793
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,120
something like that.
Now you can read this revelation

794
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,160
in context in history of the
Church.

795
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,200
This is in volume one, history
of the Church.

796
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:48,240
So this is what Joseph Smith
says after he received this

797
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:53,040
visitation.
And I think it's amazing because

798
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,880
this just shows what Joseph
Smith thought that the Angel was

799
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:02,600
saying.
OK, so Joseph did not go back to

800
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:07,040
the meeting with water, nor did
he purchase wine from like some

801
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,280
trusted source.
Like as opposed to enemies,

802
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:16,560
Joseph says in obedience to the
above commandment, we prepared

803
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,200
some wine of our own making and
held our meeting.

804
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:27,920
So rather than taking the words
of the Angel to mean go ahead

805
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,880
and have water or go ahead and
have beer or go ahead and drink

806
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:35,200
olive oil or whatever, Joseph
understood the revelation as

807
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,880
make your own, you see.
So that's quite a different

808
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:41,640
thing real.
Quick.

809
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,080
How are they making their own
that quick though?

810
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,400
Oh, OK Ah, good question.
OK, this.

811
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:54,680
Let's see, I don't have it
written down here.

812
00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:04,840
This revelation was given.
I want to say it was in about

813
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:10,680
September.
So in other words, the grapes

814
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,880
were on the vine and ready to be
picked.

815
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:20,320
So they just pick some wine or
some grapes and press the juice

816
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,080
out of it and have that for the
sacrament.

817
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,160
OK, now that so.
But that's grape juice.

818
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,480
That's not wine, all right?
That is new wine, OK.

819
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:43,240
And I'll explain more on that in
a minute what I the point that I

820
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:52,800
want to say here is that, well,
OK, well, I'll just say what new

821
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,560
wine is first.
Let's say that accent.

822
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,920
Yes.
So new wine is from the moment,

823
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,840
from the moment the juice, the
grape juice is mixed with the

824
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:12,360
yeast until a year from that
time, when the next harvest is

825
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:18,600
ready, that that space of a year
that wine is new wine.

826
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,600
Oh, OK.
So from the moment the grapes

827
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,400
are crushed and then mixed with
the yeast, which is when the

828
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,680
fermentation begins, right until
until the next harvest, the next

829
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:31,840
annual harvest, That's when the
wine is new.

830
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,280
And then after that it becomes
old one.

831
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:39,880
OK, OK, now between those two
broad categories, old and new

832
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,360
wine, which one?
Which one can you buy?

833
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,000
The old Well, yeah.
Buy buy both.

834
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,640
Well, no, no, just old wine.
Yeah, new wine is not for sale,

835
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:52,160
right?
Nobody likes new wine, right?

836
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:56,320
I shouldn't say nobody drunks
like new wine, right?

837
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,080
Because like the in on the day
of Pentecost.

838
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,720
Like making fun of the.
Some of the the naysayers are

839
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:04,000
making fun of the apostles
saying these guys are just drunk

840
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,200
on new wine.
It's the middle of the day and

841
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,560
they just, they just want
alcohol so bad, they'll even

842
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,480
drink it new, you know?
Right.

843
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:15,280
So new new wine does not mean
non alcoholic.

844
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,560
OK, All right.
Although it could be if it's

845
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,160
very, very like right after it's
crushed, Right.

846
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:25,000
OK, OK.
Now, here, here's another.

847
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,120
Here's another.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

848
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,400
Renegade podcast?
Well, good news.

849
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,160
We're on Patreon and there's
three packages that you can

850
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,640
choose from.
The first one, the Slightly

851
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,880
Rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

852
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:42,840
those pesky commercials getting
in the way.

853
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,960
For those who want a slightly
more in depth experience,

854
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,920
there's the Stirring It Up
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855
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,880
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856
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,760
Finally, for those who want to
go full Renegade, that package

857
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,440
is available too, where you can
get everything in the previous

858
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,480
two packages, plus an extra show
where myself and Ben Winfield

859
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:05,600
breakdown the news of the day
from a very Mormon point of

860
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:07,680
view.
You will also get exclusive

861
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,480
access to Renegade Chat, and on
there you'll be able to talk to

862
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,960
others about the show or
whatever topics are on your

863
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,800
mind.
Go to Patreon today and get your

864
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,600
exclusive content.
This episode of the podcast is

865
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,760
brought to you by Deseret
flag.com.

866
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,000
I've said this before and I
really mean it.

867
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,640
Mormonism isn't just a religion,
it's a culture.

868
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,720
As such, it has its own
vernacular and practices, but

869
00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:32,480
also its own symbols.
And those symbols become even

870
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:34,720
more important and prominent
when you look back into our

871
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:36,520
history.
Perhaps one of the most

872
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,480
recognizable symbols of
Mormonism is the Deseret flag.

873
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,080
This is the flag that I use as
cover art in this podcast.

874
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,480
This was also used for a good
chunk of time during the pioneer

875
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,160
era in Utah.
Now, today we have people who

876
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,160
want to replace the existing
Utah flag with some other

877
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,200
progressive monstrosity.
Well, I think it's damp past

878
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,880
time that we start pushing back
here a little bit in Utah.

879
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,960
Our friends at Defending Utah
are here to help you with that.

880
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:03,360
Now.
If you go to deseretflag.com,

881
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,080
you can now purchase your own
Deseret State flag.

882
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,720
It's time here that we start
making ourselves known and join

883
00:57:09,720 --> 00:57:12,520
the resistance against those who
seek to rewrite our state's

884
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,040
history.
Go to deseretflag.com or check

885
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,680
out the link in this episode's
page show notes and get yours

886
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,320
today.
Well, let me go back to the old

887
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:28,680
versus new.
So new wine is not for sale.

888
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:34,160
So when Joseph said he was going
to purchase some wine, old wine

889
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,120
was the kind he was getting.
That's the kind that people

890
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,160
drink.
And so my interpretation of

891
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,960
this, which is in keeping with
the rest of the commandments of

892
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,760
Jesus, like we just read in 3rd
Nephi and in the New Testament

893
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,880
and in other places in the Book
of Mormon and the Doctrine

894
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,360
Covenants and so on, is that
when it says it mattereth, not.

895
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:56,840
What he's saying is it doesn't
matter whether you have old, old

896
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,160
or new wine, you can drink new
wine.

897
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,800
And so Joseph says, well, in
obedience to the commandment, we

898
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:05,960
made some of our own right
there.

899
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:10,720
So you know that's that's sort
of so OK.

900
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,840
So let me ask you this and maybe
you're going to cover this down

901
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:20,600
down the road here, there's a
ton of people who either don't

902
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,960
have the knowledge or don't have
the space.

903
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:28,800
To ferment their own wine?
Yeah.

904
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:35,240
In that case, what would be your
understanding then of what they

905
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:39,400
should use for the sacrament?
Would they be OK buying old, You

906
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:44,800
know, buying old wine only if it
was made new among you?

907
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:49,520
So now you can use old wine as
long as it was made new, which

908
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:55,160
means originally made among your
fellow Saints.

909
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:57,680
It doesn't even doesn't have to
be made by you, it has to be

910
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,840
made among you.
OK, it says so in verse or in

911
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,760
the.
In the word wisdom it says let's

912
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:12,160
see in the in the words wisdom
it says of your own make, yes.

913
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:17,080
And then in in section 27 it
says it clarifies a little more,

914
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,560
says made new among you.
So it means that the wine was

915
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,280
made by a fellow St. fellow
Israelite.

916
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,360
Maybe you could say.
And then if you don't have the

917
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:32,960
equipment or the desire or the
space or whatever to make your

918
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:37,120
own, then you know, then there's
some guy in your group or you

919
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:39,600
know who's the designated wine
maker.

920
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,200
And that's totally good, OK?
And old wine is fine.

921
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:45,680
It just needs to be.
It can't.

922
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,720
It doesn't say that it can't be
aged among you as well, just

923
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:50,360
that it needs to be made among
you.

924
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:58,040
OK, OK, so it's interesting
though in section 27, Jesus

925
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,600
actually says what he's going to
do and this is kind of further

926
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:09,680
clarification because scripture
page turning sounds.

927
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:11,920
That's all good.
They know it's real.

928
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,920
Right, so like in verse two it
talks about you know it

929
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,360
mattereth not.
What you shall eat or drink.

930
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:24,040
But it's kind of like those
bracelets, you know, the WWJD

931
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:25,440
like what would Jesus do?
Right.

932
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:28,240
So Jesus says, you know it
doesn't matter what you drink,

933
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,920
but just so you know, I'm going
to tell you what I'm going to

934
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:32,600
do.
OK?

935
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:38,480
And he says, Marvel not, this is
verse 5 marvel not for the hour

936
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:47,040
cometh that I will drink of the
fruit of the vine on with you on

937
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:53,040
the earth with.
Moroni and Elias and John and

938
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:58,480
and he goes on and and Joseph
and Jacob and Isaac and Abraham

939
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,280
and Adam and Peter.
James and John.

940
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:06,400
So he's Jesus is like saying,
hey, you know, even if you think

941
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,320
it's water, even if you think
water's OK.

942
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:13,400
Yeah, Which is, which is I would
say, an interpretation.

943
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:15,240
I don't think it's a good
interpretation, but it's an

944
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:16,680
interpretation.
Even if that's your

945
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,200
interpretation, Jesus is saying.
Go ahead and do what you want,

946
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,960
just letting you know when, when
me and my buddies come for the

947
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,520
party at the end of the world,
we're going to be drinking wine,

948
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:27,800
right?
And so, and you know what else?

949
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:35,560
He says, says, he says, he says.
And all those who my father hath

950
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,400
given me out of the world, we're
going to all be drinking wine.

951
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,080
So you can do what you want, but
if you want to be in that party,

952
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:45,840
just letting you know.
We're going to be drinking.

953
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,280
I'm just saying it's a hell of a
time to be trying to find your

954
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,160
limits on what you can drink,
so.

955
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:57,040
So yeah, you know when we when
my family kind of first started

956
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:01,680
doing it, actually it's kind of
funny.

957
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,720
The the very first time that I
made wine, it was for it was for

958
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:05,720
Passover.
OK.

959
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:09,520
So growing up, you know, we, we
done the Passover, but you know,

960
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:11,400
but we were Latter Day Saints
and so you know we'd all just

961
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:13,760
have grape juice.
You know that we we, you know,

962
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,400
steamed, juiced our.
Her own grapes.

963
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,680
And, you know, that's all good.
But, you know, I was reading

964
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:21,320
more.
And then my my father passed

965
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,120
away and kind of I'm in charge
of Passover.

966
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,920
And so I decided, you know, with
much study and trepidation, like

967
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:28,920
I said, we're going to try
making a batch of wine and we're

968
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:30,720
going to have wine with the
Passover.

969
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,760
But I have no idea what wine is
supposed to taste like.

970
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,680
Oh, OK, hold on first.
How'd your mom take that?

971
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,200
Well, my mom had passed away.
Oh, OK, so.

972
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,520
So, no.
So, so it was me and my

973
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:46,040
siblings, OK And actually we
just had wine at my table and

974
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:48,360
you know, my siblings had juice.
I got you.

975
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:49,640
And they didn't know the
difference.

976
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:54,240
I got you.
So she didn't, she didn't know

977
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:55,520
anything about it.
Well, I guess she knew.

978
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:57,080
She know.
Know she knows.

979
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:59,080
She was.
I should have just answered you.

980
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:00,360
She was proud.
Yeah.

981
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:01,640
There you go.
There you go.

982
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:03,920
She was proud that her boy was
doing the right thing.

983
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:08,040
So anyway, I had no idea what
because I'd never.

984
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:13,120
Touched a drop of wine in my
life, so I actually went to the

985
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:17,480
liquor store right, and just
kind of bewildered to look at

986
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,680
all the selection and just
picked out something that was

987
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:23,680
kind of mid range in price.
Seems like a safe bet.

988
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,960
And yeah, we tasted.
So then when our first batch was

989
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,840
done like fermenting, it was
done bubbling and it seemed like

990
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,800
it was ready to drink.
Then we tried some of the store

991
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,880
bought stuff 1st and it was
horrendous.

992
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:43,080
Yeah, it was like, it was like
nail Polish remover or something

993
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:48,720
like boat cleaner.
And man, I immediately

994
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:52,000
appreciated wine of your own
make because it was actually

995
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:54,360
quite a bit better.
Yeah, yeah.

996
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,440
And this is where I feel like a
public service announcement is

997
01:03:57,440 --> 01:03:59,720
needed.
If you're going to try buying

998
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:02,560
old wine, stay away from wine
that comes in boxes.

999
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,680
Not a good look, so.
It was in a bottle.

1000
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:07,040
It was in a bottle.
I know, I know.

1001
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:07,520
I'm just.
Yeah.

1002
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:08,040
But yeah.
OK.

1003
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:09,440
There's another little service
announcement.

1004
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:11,520
Yeah, very good.
OK, man.

1005
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:14,960
So yeah, I know there there is
such thing as bad stuff, I mean.

1006
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:21,920
Oh, so, OK.
So you know, and I, I will say

1007
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,240
too, just just kind of going
back to if someone doesn't feel

1008
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,120
like they have the equipment or
whatever, I actually have a

1009
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:27,960
book, OK.
And I'm kind of flipping through

1010
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:33,360
it right now as we're talking.
It is called wine of your own

1011
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:38,640
make.
By Joshua Erickson It's spiral

1012
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:42,800
bound.
I used to have it like bound the

1013
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:44,760
regular way, you know, with glue
or whatever.

1014
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:49,440
But people like to spiral bound
better because in addition to

1015
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:55,360
like scriptures and history like
justifications for an arguments

1016
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,880
in favor of.
This is also a recipe book.

1017
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,840
Gotcha.
So this has recipes for both

1018
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,200
bread and wine.
OK, so you can.

1019
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:05,280
So it's a recipe book so we can
lay out flat on the kitchen

1020
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:09,320
counter or whatever.
So this book is how do they get

1021
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:10,760
ahold of you if they want to buy
a copy?

1022
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:17,240
Yeah, you know, probably the
best thing is to shoot me an

1023
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:18,480
e-mail.
OK, so.

1024
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:23,360
And the best e-mail would
probably be Restoration Torah

1025
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:26,720
Conference.
At gmail.com.

1026
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:28,320
I'll throw that in the show
notes, OK.

1027
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,040
All one word.
And I don't check in that every

1028
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:34,320
day.
But now if you're down kind of

1029
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:38,000
southern Utah County Confetti
Books has some.

1030
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:43,840
And also down in Santaquin,
Kevin Kraut at old Pioneer Press

1031
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,360
at his print shop.
They've got some copies in there

1032
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:47,360
too.
Right on.

1033
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:54,640
Actually, Kevin printed it for
me, so OK, All right.

1034
01:05:55,760 --> 01:06:02,760
Now so there is there is a there
is a debate in the Christian

1035
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:06,080
world, and certainly in the
Mormon world too, about about

1036
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:11,400
whether new wine is alcoholic or
about whether like Jesus at the

1037
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:14,160
Last Supper.
Like I've heard that you know,

1038
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:17,240
the New Testament says wine.
But of course Jesus wouldn't do

1039
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:22,000
that because Jesus obeys the
Word of Wisdom and so didn't end

1040
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:23,120
in the account.
And.

1041
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:24,600
And I could be wrong.
I'm just.

1042
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:27,880
I'm not a scripterian.
I don't play one.

1043
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:30,160
Yeah.
Didn't it say?

1044
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,280
Didn't he tell his disciples to
go purchase one?

1045
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:35,040
No.
Right before the.

1046
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:36,280
Passover.
You know what?

1047
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,760
Yeah, He said go purchase things
needful for the feast.

1048
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:41,640
Yeah, OK, Yeah, that's right.
But that was that's totally

1049
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:43,560
fine.
I what I guarantee you is that

1050
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,240
they were not purchasing Roman
One.

1051
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,120
Gotcha.
OK, They were perching Israelite

1052
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:49,720
wine.
OK And you know, actually I'm

1053
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,480
going to, that has a beautiful
little aside there because

1054
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,160
oftentimes in Word wisdom
lessons, you probably heard

1055
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:59,440
this, like, story of Daniel,
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego

1056
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:01,920
that gets brought up all the
time because they refused

1057
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:07,040
Nebuchadnezzar's wine and meat.
Right.

1058
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:10,680
And so we're like, oh, look at
this perfect Word of wisdom

1059
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,080
example.
And then and Daniel was keeping

1060
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:18,880
the Word of Wisdom.
But it it wasn't because it

1061
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:23,360
wasn't because he was avoiding
alcohol.

1062
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:28,040
Jews, I'm sorry, like Jews do
not have a problem with wine,

1063
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:30,680
OK, Daniel did not have a
problem with wine.

1064
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:35,520
That is just, I don't know what
there's words that we're just

1065
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:38,520
reading into that from our own
culture or something.

1066
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:42,080
Some weird interpretation.
But Daniel was perfectly in

1067
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,760
keeping with the Word of Wisdom,
like especially I guess Doctrine

1068
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:49,840
Covenants 27, that you shouldn't
be having wine from your

1069
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,920
enemies, should be of your own
make or made among you.

1070
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,840
OK, so he was keeping it, but
not for the reason that most

1071
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:00,200
people suppose.
And and same with the meat too.

1072
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:02,400
It wasn't necessarily a Word of
Wisdom thing.

1073
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,160
But this is other commandments
from the Torah that you're not

1074
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:08,720
in in a lot of these Pagan
countries.

1075
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:15,640
Like, every.
Every bit of meat is offered to

1076
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:21,640
bail first, like when, like the
priests are the butchers and

1077
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,720
they say a prayer to bail before
they slit the animal's throat

1078
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:26,760
and then, you know, then the
meat goes on the market, but

1079
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,920
it's been consecrated to bail or
Molech or one of the other.

1080
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:32,279
Whoever.
Yeah, yeah.

1081
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,040
So coast to hell.
That's exactly right.

1082
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:40,800
So, so Daniel was.
He's not concerned with the

1083
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,560
things that we think he was
concerned with, OK?

1084
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,479
Didn't they also eat a lot more
pork in in Babylon, in those

1085
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:48,600
areas?
Yeah.

1086
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:50,120
And those, Yeah, pork and
shellfish.

1087
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:53,760
And who knows what other kinds
of, quote meat was being eaten?

1088
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:54,880
Horses and camels.
And.

1089
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,080
Right.
I don't know.

1090
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:00,760
I'm no historian of that.
But yes, certainly unclean

1091
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:06,120
animals were part of that meat.
So, OK, so.

1092
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:12,240
So yeah, so I've heard people
say even like, probably the,

1093
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:16,479
like the Last Supper was just
grape juice or grape syrup or

1094
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:19,560
something like that.
But you know what?

1095
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:27,359
That was in a time on this
planet when there was no such

1096
01:09:27,359 --> 01:09:32,200
thing as pasteurization nor
refrigeration, right?

1097
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:34,840
OK.
And the Passover is in

1098
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:38,479
springtime.
And the grape harvest is in

1099
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:40,880
fall.
The fall time, the grape harvest

1100
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:45,399
is basically six months from.
There's no way that stuff is

1101
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:48,359
staying.
That is not, that is not

1102
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,840
unfermented juice that they're
having at the Last Supper.

1103
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:55,320
That was 100% alcoholic wine.
Yeah.

1104
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:57,200
And there's no problem with
that.

1105
01:09:57,200 --> 01:09:59,480
There's nothing to be nothing
that Jesus needs to be ashamed

1106
01:09:59,480 --> 01:10:00,320
of, you know?
Right.

1107
01:10:01,440 --> 01:10:05,080
OK.
Now if we if we weren't sure

1108
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:09,280
then.
So in in in section 27, right,

1109
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:11,080
Jesus says he's going to be
drinking of the fruit of the

1110
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:14,680
vine with all his besties.
And if you want to be there,

1111
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:16,120
you're going to be drinking of
it too.

1112
01:10:16,480 --> 01:10:19,920
So go back to my story about
buying the the store bought

1113
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:23,920
wine.
So sometimes we we joke that it

1114
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:28,640
would be good if you would try
some wine for the sacrament now,

1115
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:32,040
so you can kind of get used to
it because the last thing you

1116
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:35,400
want to do when like there's the
wedding feast and Jesus hands

1117
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:37,560
you the cup.
You don't want to make a face,

1118
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,000
you know, You don't want to do
that soon to be embarrassing.

1119
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:45,480
So OK, so but some people might
still say, you know, well, yeah,

1120
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:48,920
when it says fruit of the vine
in section 27 is still Jesus is

1121
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:50,840
going to be partaking of grape
juice.

1122
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:53,080
OK.
But we go to the doctrine of

1123
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:56,720
covenant, section 58 and it says
talking about the the marriage

1124
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,200
of the Lamb, the Big, the Big
feast at the end.

1125
01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:03,360
It says also that a feast of fat
things is Doctrine of Covenants

1126
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:05,760
58, verse 8.
A feast of fat things might be

1127
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:08,200
prepared for the poor.
Yeah, yeah, a feast of fat

1128
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:12,200
things.
Of wine on the leaves, Well,

1129
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,360
refined.
So what is wine on the leaves?

1130
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:22,080
You know, what are leaves?
So again, this is a word that

1131
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:24,160
Latter Day Saints are not
generally familiar with.

1132
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:25,920
I'll tell you what leaves are,
though.

1133
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:32,240
Leaves is the sediment.
That is leftover after grape

1134
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:37,360
juice has fermented into wine
leaves is mostly made of dead

1135
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:40,160
yeast cells that kind of settle
to the bottom.

1136
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:45,080
So the kind of wine that Jesus
is going to be having is going

1137
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:49,200
to be wine on the leaves.
In other words, it's fermented

1138
01:11:50,480 --> 01:11:53,760
because that's the only kind of
wine that.

1139
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:57,920
Has Lee's right is after the
fermentation is complete.

1140
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:02,200
OK, OK, so there you go.
Lee's That word.

1141
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,240
Lee's definitely wasn't Welch's.
Not Welch's.

1142
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,840
That's right.
There's another interesting one.

1143
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:09,320
I'm gonna have you read this.
OK.

1144
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:16,440
Isaiah.
Isaiah 65, verse eight.

1145
01:12:16,440 --> 01:12:19,600
It's like I've had people point
this out to me before and it's,

1146
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:24,000
you know, it's.
I have an argument for it, so

1147
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,200
OK, just one second.
Yeah, no problem.

1148
01:12:29,440 --> 01:12:31,720
Isaiah 65 What?
Verse 8.

1149
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:37,800
Now this verse is not talking
about, you know, using wine for

1150
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:39,200
the sacrament or anything like
that.

1151
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:42,760
OK, But it has, you know, an
interesting footnote.

1152
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:44,440
So go ahead and read the verse,
OK?

1153
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:48,320
And thus saith the Lord, as the
new wine is found in the

1154
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:53,400
cluster, and once saith, destroy
it for a blessing it is is in

1155
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:57,680
it, So will I do for my
servant's sake, that I will may

1156
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:02,680
that I may not destroy them all.
OK, so it says right there the

1157
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:04,640
new wine is in the cluster,
right?

1158
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:07,040
Right.
And So what do you look at?

1159
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:10,880
You look at the footnote for a
new wine.

1160
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:15,720
Yeah, a a grape juice.
New wine is ta da grape juice.

1161
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:17,120
And how do we know that?
Because it says.

1162
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:19,280
The new wine is in a cluster.
Of course.

1163
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:25,360
Grapes aren't alcoholic, right?
OK, ah, but a cluster of grapes

1164
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:29,720
has actually more than just
there's juice inside the grapes,

1165
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:33,560
but it's more than just juice.
So you've held handled grapes

1166
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,760
before.
You know that on the outside of

1167
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:40,840
the grapes there's kind of a
white film, kind of a powdery

1168
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:44,360
film.
That's called Bloom, and that is

1169
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:47,000
a layer.
And all the grapes in the world

1170
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:51,040
have this, this is naturally
occurring layer of yeast,

1171
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:55,200
really.
So when you say the new wine is

1172
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:58,000
in the cluster, yeah, that's
because as soon as you crush

1173
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:03,240
those grapes, boom.
Then the juice touches the yeast

1174
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:06,280
and fermentation begins and it
is.

1175
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:12,040
So the new wine is right there.
It's like grapes are made to be

1176
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:13,440
wine.
It's like a little wine making

1177
01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:18,360
kit that God made for us.
Now if if anyone's listening and

1178
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:21,400
you want to try making wine and
you go to the store and get

1179
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:23,360
grape juice, which is totally
fine.

1180
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:25,000
I've made wine that way a bunch
of times.

1181
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:29,240
And you you pour it out like
you're going to have to add

1182
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:32,280
yeast to that because the the
juice at the store has been

1183
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:36,600
pasteurized, so they've killed
the natural naturally occurring

1184
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:40,560
yeast there.
But if you just take grapes and

1185
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:42,920
stomp on them or whatever,
right?

1186
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,680
Or put them in a winepress.
Then the yeast is right there

1187
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:49,040
and you don't need to add
anything, it will just turn into

1188
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:51,480
wine automatically.
Wow.

1189
01:14:53,880 --> 01:15:03,240
So let's talk about holiness
now.

1190
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:12,520
So back in section 27, verse two
says.

1191
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:17,920
Behold, it mattereth not what ye
shall eat, or what ye shall

1192
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:20,120
drink, when ye partake of the
sacrament, If it so be that ye

1193
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:24,280
do it with an eye single to my
glory, remembering unto the

1194
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:27,320
Father my body which was laid
down for you, and my blood,

1195
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:29,480
which was shed for the remission
of your sins.

1196
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:34,200
Verse 3.
Wherefore A commandment I give

1197
01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:37,480
unto you, that you shall not
purchase wine, neither strong

1198
01:15:37,480 --> 01:15:39,800
drink of your enemies.
Verse 4.

1199
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:43,520
Wherefore.
You shall partake of none of it,

1200
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:47,200
except it is made new among you.
Yeah, in this my father's

1201
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:51,600
Kingdom, which shall be built up
upon the earth, so.

1202
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:54,280
Oh, you're going to say
something?

1203
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:58,280
Yeah.
So I have a question about who

1204
01:15:58,280 --> 01:15:59,920
would be classified as our
enemies.

1205
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:06,160
Is that anybody not Mormon?
Well, I that might depend on who

1206
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:09,640
you ask.
I, as you know, am a very big

1207
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:11,480
tent.
Mormon, Right.

1208
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:17,720
So I'm.
I'd be happy with, I'd be happy

1209
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:20,800
with any Israelite.
OK, OK.

1210
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:27,360
So I'd be happy with, you know,
yeah.

1211
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:33,120
Any any a Mormon of any stripe
or or any Jewish winery or

1212
01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:34,640
whatever.
Like, I'd be fine with that too,

1213
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:39,840
actually.
OK, OK now.

1214
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:46,320
Verse 3 mentions enemies.
OK and you just ask a question

1215
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:53,280
about that and usually we think
like what do we think?

1216
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:55,000
Why does it say not to purchase
it?

1217
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:58,320
Because of your enemies?
Well, First off I would.

1218
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:03,160
There's a couple of reasons that
spring to my mind. 1st is it's

1219
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:04,880
like buying oil from Saudi
Arabia.

1220
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:08,040
It's the it's like getting the
belt for your old man before he

1221
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:11,080
whoops you with it.
It's kind of a a a a silly

1222
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:13,640
exercise to give him a club that
they're about to beat you with.

1223
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:18,640
Second, they might have some
special Mormon wine, right?

1224
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:20,920
And yeah, I got something for
you.

1225
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:22,760
You're gonna love this one.
Yeah.

1226
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:27,120
And and maybe maybe less than
sanitary conditions.

1227
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:30,080
Right.
So I think that those are

1228
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:33,360
certainly.
Valid reasons like the the fear

1229
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:36,240
of poison, like actually someone
doing you harm.

1230
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:38,960
I love that you brought up the
the financial thing too, because

1231
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:42,080
I think that's actually.
I think that the first answer

1232
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:46,360
you gave is actually closer in
my mind, to the the primary

1233
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:55,680
reason is we don't want to be
dependent upon our enemies for

1234
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:57,560
the practice of our religion,
Right.

1235
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:03,480
OK.
You know I work for the for the

1236
01:18:03,480 --> 01:18:08,840
army and you know this just is
my opinion, not speaking for the

1237
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:14,200
US government or anything, but
for a long time I think still

1238
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:20,120
like the the TNT that the
military uses to fill our

1239
01:18:20,440 --> 01:18:23,000
munitions right is all, it's all
made in China.

1240
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:29,080
We get our the raw materials to
make ammunition from.

1241
01:18:29,480 --> 01:18:31,840
China instead of making it
ourselves because it's just

1242
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:35,000
because it's cheaper or whatever
and I'm like that's not really a

1243
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:37,120
good trade off.
I would pay.

1244
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:42,440
I would pay a little more to be
self-sufficient in our defense.

1245
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:45,800
Yep, absolutely.
So we use a lot of TNT.

1246
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:51,880
But anyway, so I love that.
I think that's a big part of it.

1247
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:56,000
It is important to.
I've talked to people who.

1248
01:18:57,160 --> 01:19:00,720
Believe the poison idea is so
ingrained that I've talked to

1249
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:05,680
people who even say that poison
is mentioned in section 27 as

1250
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:09,800
the reason, which is not.
And people have been surprised

1251
01:19:09,800 --> 01:19:12,640
like a Mandela effect.
Like I swear it said something

1252
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:16,320
about poison which it does not.
Now section 89 also says

1253
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:18,560
conspiring men and stuff, right?
Right.

1254
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:20,920
But here's an interesting thing.
Is like if.

1255
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:25,480
If section 89 says conspiring
men and you know section 27 says

1256
01:19:25,480 --> 01:19:27,560
don't purchase of your enemies,
why is it?

1257
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:30,640
Why is it only the wine like,
But it doesn't say anything

1258
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:33,920
about the rest of your food,
Your bread?

1259
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:35,840
Your your your wheat?
Sure.

1260
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:40,120
Yeah, you can poison fruits and
vegetables and meat and grain

1261
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:44,240
and beer just as well as you can
poison wine, right?

1262
01:19:44,480 --> 01:19:48,160
So.
So why is it that that we're not

1263
01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:51,160
concerned with?
Purchasing those things from

1264
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:53,600
enemies or gentiles or outsiders
or whatever.

1265
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:55,680
But we are.
But wine is some something

1266
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:58,880
special, and my contention is
that it's something special

1267
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:03,800
because it is related to our
religious observance and we do

1268
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:09,320
not want to be reliant upon
Babylon for the practice of our

1269
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:13,840
religion, right?
We want the Kingdom needs to be

1270
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:17,840
independent, right?
OK Of all other.

1271
01:20:18,320 --> 01:20:19,600
Towers Under.
Heaven, I don't know what your

1272
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:21,280
problem is.
I'm sure the UN would do a fine

1273
01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:28,040
job.
It's like a great way to give

1274
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:29,600
people vaccines or something.
Yeah, yeah, they.

1275
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:31,200
Do great.
Put it in the beat.

1276
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:39,720
OK, OK, now it is an interesting
that verse two it says yeah, it

1277
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:43,760
doesn't matter what you eat or
drink, but it says to do it with

1278
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,080
an eye single to my glory,
remembering my body and my blood

1279
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:49,440
shed for the remission of your
sins.

1280
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:53,720
And then in verse three and four
it has this one.

1281
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:59,600
Verse 3 says don't purchase it
from enemies and #4 says make it

1282
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:03,880
new, but both of those are
prefaced 3 and four by the word

1283
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:06,400
wherefore?
So what does wherefore mean?

1284
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:08,520
It's a word we maybe don't use
that often anymore.

1285
01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:13,520
But wherefore just means
therefore, which means because

1286
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:18,040
of this right?
So now if poison is the concern,

1287
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:24,280
then what those verses are
essentially saying, and I'm kind

1288
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:29,760
of paraphrasing here, but it'll
say verse two says do the

1289
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:33,640
sacrament with an eye single to
my glory, remembering my body

1290
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:36,240
which was laid down, my blood
which was shed for your sins.

1291
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:42,000
Make this a holy, sacred
experience because of this.

1292
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:45,320
Wherefore, watch out for poison,
OK?

1293
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:47,760
It's like this sort of kind of
incongruent ideas, right?

1294
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:52,520
Make this a holy experience.
Therefore, because of that,

1295
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:54,440
because I want you to do that.
Watch out for poison.

1296
01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:58,680
Right.
So let me push here a little bit

1297
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:01,160
because I'm curious how far we,
we take this.

1298
01:22:03,480 --> 01:22:07,600
We don't have the same
prohibition on olive oil, and

1299
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:10,640
that's used heavily in our
sacraments, even in the temple,

1300
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:14,520
correct?
There's There seems to be no

1301
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:19,840
prohibition against buying olive
oil at the store that's extra

1302
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:24,120
virgin and consecrating that.
Yeah, that's Wouldn't the same

1303
01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:25,600
pizza good?
Why?

1304
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:29,280
Why wouldn't the same be true of
wine if you consecrated it

1305
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:33,080
first?
Yeah, yeah, I would.

1306
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:38,560
Although you are correct, Sir,
that there is there is no

1307
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:46,280
specific injunction to make your
own olive oil, I do believe that

1308
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:51,000
that is the intention of the
scriptures and certainly this

1309
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:55,960
was.
Certainly this was explicit for

1310
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:59,680
ancient Israel and all the
scriptures that apply to ancient

1311
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,480
Israel.
So when I say it doesn't say it

1312
01:23:02,480 --> 01:23:05,760
in modern revelation, in the
Doctrine Covenants or whatever.

1313
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:08,920
It does say it in the Torah.
Right.

1314
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:17,520
Says to the Israelites, bring
your oil and your wine right

1315
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:22,320
from your harvest for these
sacraments, for these

1316
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:27,760
ordinances.
So, and you know, you couple

1317
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:32,640
that with also what I believe is
the desire, the Lord's desire

1318
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:36,600
for the Saints to be independent
in all things.

1319
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:41,920
Yes, the Doctrine Covenants may
not have a specific revelation

1320
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:46,000
even about even about simple
things you know about making

1321
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:50,360
bricks or you know or having a a
sawmill or whatever.

1322
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:56,280
And yet I still believe that it
is the Lord's intention for the

1323
01:23:56,280 --> 01:24:00,200
Saints to have all of those
things and to be fully

1324
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:02,640
independent in all of our
manufacturing.

1325
01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:05,440
That was Brigham's idea.
That was Joseph's idea, right.

1326
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:07,360
Yes.
We are going to build not

1327
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:10,600
necessarily going to set up a
church, we're going to build a

1328
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:13,440
city and then we're going to
build a nation and we're going

1329
01:24:13,440 --> 01:24:16,840
to re establish Israel, right.
Yeah.

1330
01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:20,120
So.
So that's kind of a that was an

1331
01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:23,000
excellent question.
But I think, I think the

1332
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:29,920
scriptures would support even
having now if you if you don't

1333
01:24:30,200 --> 01:24:36,280
have your own olive press, what
do you do if you don't have your

1334
01:24:36,280 --> 01:24:39,920
own vineyards?
What do you do if you if you

1335
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:45,240
don't have, you know these
things well you do the best you

1336
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:46,720
can, right?
OK.

1337
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:49,160
And.
And I think that's what 27 was

1338
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:52,280
speaking to there, right?
It's like here's the preferred

1339
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:57,240
method.
Absent this, you can go to that,

1340
01:24:57,360 --> 01:24:59,680
right.
And I think yes.

1341
01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:07,120
So actually I'll say, you know,
so, so Brigham, just to bring

1342
01:25:07,120 --> 01:25:10,520
him up, that was the whole.
Point of Saint George in a lot

1343
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:12,120
of ways.
Oh yeah, that's right.

1344
01:25:12,160 --> 01:25:15,400
Yeah.
So down Saint George and

1345
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:17,880
Tocerville.
Yeah.

1346
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:21,200
They had the Dixie wine mission.
Yep.

1347
01:25:21,640 --> 01:25:23,520
Yeah.
And actually when the when the

1348
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:28,400
Saints first arrived, they
actually found grapevines

1349
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:31,680
growing down there.
Native native plants and they're

1350
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:35,480
like, oh this is good country
for growing grapes.

1351
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:42,600
And so yeah, Brigham sent sent
missions down there to cultivate

1352
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:44,880
grapes and supply wine for the
territory.

1353
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:49,400
Now that was never, that was
actually never quite fully

1354
01:25:51,480 --> 01:25:57,960
achieved, I guess, but they but
that was the that was the goal.

1355
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:03,160
So journal discourse is 19
Brigham verse or page 92

1356
01:26:04,040 --> 01:26:05,480
Brigham's talking about this.
He says.

1357
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:12,040
Consequently we use water as
though it were wine, for we are

1358
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:15,640
commanded to drink not of wine
for the sacred purpose, except

1359
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:20,640
it be made by our own hands.
So now even though Brigham said

1360
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:26,360
that he was not content to just
keep on using water right

1361
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:30,160
forever, like, I mean we've
heard, I kind of liken this to

1362
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:33,720
and you've probably heard
stories of soldiers in foxholes

1363
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:36,720
or whatever, sure.
Having the sacrament with water

1364
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:39,840
from their canteen and potato
peels or something like that.

1365
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:45,600
I think I don't have any
judgment for that, no, you know.

1366
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,400
I would think the Lord would
rather you do that than go

1367
01:26:48,400 --> 01:26:50,600
without.
Yeah, but.

1368
01:26:52,400 --> 01:27:00,720
But when we get to a place where
we can have bread then, and we

1369
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:05,920
persist in eating potato peels,
then I think that would be that

1370
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:10,160
becomes displeasing, yes.
And when we get to a point where

1371
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:16,440
we could have wine, but we
persist in drinking Gatorade or

1372
01:27:16,440 --> 01:27:20,800
having water or anything else,
then I think it becomes

1373
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:37,400
displeasing.
Yeah, so, so, OK, so now there's

1374
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:41,280
only, so, you know, we want to
please the Lord, we want

1375
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:45,280
blessings, There's commandments
behind this.

1376
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:49,480
And there's also, there's also
symbolism right behind this.

1377
01:27:49,480 --> 01:27:54,200
So these are all reasons to to
actually obey the word of.

1378
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:55,280
Wisdom, right?
Yep.

1379
01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:58,760
And by obeying the word of is
what I mean having wine for

1380
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:06,960
sacraments.
OK, so and of course I mean you

1381
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:11,360
can probably you can probably
think of some like what is some

1382
01:28:11,360 --> 01:28:14,280
symbolism in of grapes and with
wine?

1383
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:16,400
With wine, well.
Let's just go to the sacrament

1384
01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:17,720
right here.
That's the ones.

1385
01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:19,600
Give me some ideas.
As you know.

1386
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:24,120
Mormons of most stripes are
going to use it's blood, right?

1387
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:25,680
I mean, you look at it.
That's right.

1388
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:27,440
It's a symbolic equivalent in
the scripture.

1389
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:32,600
Symbolic equivalent.
It's, you know, and certainly

1390
01:28:33,200 --> 01:28:35,680
I'm kind of a big believer that
if you use wine for the

1391
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:39,320
sacrament, it probably shouldn't
be, shouldn't be the the

1392
01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:41,320
sweetest wine out there either,
right?

1393
01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:44,480
I think there's something to be
said for the Bitter cut, Bitter

1394
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:47,360
cup.
And so I think I think that

1395
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:50,360
that.
This is my own opinion and mine

1396
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:52,320
alone.
I don't want anyone to think

1397
01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:55,480
I'm, I'm preaching gospel here,
but I'm thinking for those kind

1398
01:28:55,480 --> 01:28:57,200
of things, right?
I think.

1399
01:28:57,480 --> 01:28:59,440
I think you'd want a little bit
of a bitter cup.

1400
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:02,480
Interesting.
I would also say for things like

1401
01:29:02,480 --> 01:29:05,240
weddings and those sorts of
things, probably something a

1402
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:11,160
little bit sweeter, something
that that that goes pair up the

1403
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:14,000
occasion right.
I like it.

1404
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:22,680
I have a friend, Richard.
Anyway, he he says he he he he

1405
01:29:22,680 --> 01:29:25,120
thinks that exact same thing for
the sacrament.

1406
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:31,400
He says this that, like the cup
itself is symbolic of the of

1407
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:36,760
Jesus's suffering, because at
first it's bitter, but then

1408
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:39,880
afterwards there comes joy,
right?

1409
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:41,240
Right.
And that's kind of the order

1410
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:42,960
that things happened with the
atonement.

1411
01:29:43,440 --> 01:29:48,080
Bitter at first, but then once
it's finished then it's time to

1412
01:29:48,080 --> 01:29:48,840
celebrate, right?
Well.

1413
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:51,120
And, and, and let's say this
too, right?

1414
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,440
I think there's symbolism also
that that with with the

1415
01:29:54,440 --> 01:29:57,800
sacrament maybe something that
causes a little bit of burning

1416
01:29:57,800 --> 01:30:00,080
in the bosom.
Oh yeah, that's right.

1417
01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:04,120
To have the spirit be more
abundantly with you, yeah.

1418
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:06,000
How is the spirit often
described?

1419
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:08,080
I I think.
I think there's symbolism here

1420
01:30:08,360 --> 01:30:13,000
and it's rich and deep, right?
And until we we stop to think

1421
01:30:13,000 --> 01:30:16,960
for a minute and say.
Are we missing out by just using

1422
01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:19,720
water?
We need to.

1423
01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:23,800
We need to really take a good
hard look and and take a step

1424
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:26,920
back.
So sometimes, sometimes alcohol,

1425
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:31,000
usually distilled things are
called spirits.

1426
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:32,480
Yep.
Right.

1427
01:30:32,480 --> 01:30:39,080
And so, so that the wine has
spirit in it.

1428
01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:40,960
Yeah.
And you can feel that burn,

1429
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:43,560
right, right.
And so that's that is a part of

1430
01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:45,400
the.
Symbol Alcohol's got a different

1431
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:47,120
burn, right?
I would say that's more of a

1432
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:53,480
could be more of a a fire,
right.

1433
01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:55,280
Yeah.
If you're.

1434
01:30:55,280 --> 01:30:57,400
If you're having distilled.
Yeah.

1435
01:30:57,480 --> 01:30:58,560
Right.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

1436
01:30:58,560 --> 01:31:02,560
With with wine, it's very, it's
a very subtle, it's warm warmth.

1437
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:03,600
That's right.
Yep.

1438
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:05,360
Yep.
But it's part of the symbolism.

1439
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:05,920
It is.
Yep.

1440
01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:07,520
And we call it spirit.
Yep.

1441
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:11,200
So that's cool.
You know another another bit of

1442
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:20,320
symbolism that I love is that
that wine is a symbol of, of

1443
01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:23,520
course it's of course it's the
it's connected to the atonement,

1444
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:28,040
but it's, I think specifically
and beautifully a symbol of

1445
01:31:28,040 --> 01:31:33,280
death and resurrection, right?
OK, so the difference between

1446
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:39,000
mortal and immortal bodies go.
Well, the difference is that

1447
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:42,320
you're not as far as as far as
physiological differences.

1448
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:43,960
Right, physiological
differences.

1449
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:48,280
Well, we could go back to some
things that I more specific

1450
01:31:48,480 --> 01:31:51,360
what's in the.
Veins, veins, spirit at that

1451
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:53,480
point, right.
Yeah.

1452
01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:57,480
So it starts out so blood
becomes spirit.

1453
01:31:57,480 --> 01:31:58,400
Yep.
Yeah.

1454
01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:04,200
And you know, when blood is in
the veins, in the vessels, then

1455
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:09,080
then the flesh, the body is
corruptible.

1456
01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:18,320
And so when you make wine, first
you crush the grapes, the blood

1457
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:20,320
quote, blood of the grapes comes
out.

1458
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:23,640
And then there's a
transformation that takes place

1459
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:29,840
and the blood turns into spirit
and then it's becomes

1460
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:34,520
incorruptible because there's
this thing that ferments, which

1461
01:32:34,520 --> 01:32:39,080
I mean, ferment is kind of a
polite way of saying rot, right?

1462
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:42,960
Fermentation is the kind of rot
that we don't mind eating or

1463
01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:44,040
drinking, I guess.
Right.

1464
01:32:44,280 --> 01:32:45,920
Right.
But but that really what is what

1465
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:47,520
it is?
Microbial action, right.

1466
01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:52,760
So, but then it turns into
something that actually gets

1467
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:55,000
better with age, right?
Right.

1468
01:32:55,000 --> 01:32:58,720
Which is something that improves
and and maintains and doesn't

1469
01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:01,840
and doesn't spoil anymore,
right?

1470
01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:04,400
Which is what wine is versus
grape juice, you see?

1471
01:33:04,520 --> 01:33:06,360
Yeah.
Well, and and, and here's,

1472
01:33:06,440 --> 01:33:11,360
here's the other thing I'll say
right there was a quote and I

1473
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:13,520
can't remember who said it, but
I want to say it was one of the

1474
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:19,760
later leaders of the LDS Church.
And I'm sure allusions to this

1475
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:21,800
were made by both Joseph and
Brigham.

1476
01:33:22,400 --> 01:33:25,040
Those are early brethren, that
Levitical order.

1477
01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:30,080
The, the, the ironic priesthood,
I should say, that administers

1478
01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:33,320
the sacrament.
I remember someone said you have

1479
01:33:33,320 --> 01:33:39,320
to picture yourself as offering,
not offering, but offering up

1480
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:43,720
the sacrifice, right?
Yeah, the tearing of flesh.

1481
01:33:43,760 --> 01:33:48,400
The bread, right.
The the, the bleeding of the of

1482
01:33:48,400 --> 01:33:50,160
the Gray heavy stuff.
Right.

1483
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:54,760
It's heavy, heavy stuff.
I think it's also symbolic of

1484
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:57,840
that broken heart, right?
That tearing that.

1485
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:01,800
Oh yes, that breaking apart,
right.

1486
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:06,960
And out of that and and there's
certain symbols that are to be

1487
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:09,560
used that I think are best for
that, right.

1488
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:13,200
And and wine is certainly among
them.

1489
01:34:13,480 --> 01:34:17,480
Absolutely actually love what he
just said.

1490
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:25,200
I'm gonna skip ahead a little
bit, but in ancient times, when

1491
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:29,280
you know in Hebrew, when you
know in the Old Testament when

1492
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:33,240
someone quote makes a covenant.
They cut a covenant.

1493
01:34:33,320 --> 01:34:35,280
That's right.
It's correct.

1494
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:39,280
Now, if you're familiar with the
old school garment, yeah, Amen.

1495
01:34:39,400 --> 01:34:41,760
Right.
There is some rich symbolism

1496
01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:48,040
there that's not necessarily
there in the in the the street

1497
01:34:48,040 --> 01:34:51,640
garment if you will, right.
Yes, that's exactly right.

1498
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:59,920
So that actually it's it's
interesting because when when

1499
01:34:59,920 --> 01:35:02,960
like when people would make a
covenant, very often what they

1500
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,800
would do they they would yeah
they would cut the covenant and

1501
01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:10,440
like we get you know that's a
Hebrew idiom gets translated as

1502
01:35:10,440 --> 01:35:13,880
make a covenant.
But in English we have similar

1503
01:35:14,440 --> 01:35:17,880
idioms cut a deal.
We say we cut a deal or we

1504
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:20,080
strike a bargain.
Right.

1505
01:35:20,240 --> 01:35:21,800
Right.
And this comes from this, the

1506
01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:25,080
Hebrew idea of of covenants and
they would they would kill an

1507
01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:28,600
animal and when they would make
it an agreement and actually cut

1508
01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:31,520
the animal into two pieces and
walk between them.

1509
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:36,280
Yep.
And and the agreement was if if

1510
01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:41,440
we keep our end of the bargain,
then the animal dies.

1511
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:45,520
Right.
But if we break it, then we will

1512
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:47,640
die right then.
Whatever was done to the animal,

1513
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:50,080
may it be done right to us.
Right.

1514
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:57,760
And so there's a beautiful thing
about that like, and and the

1515
01:35:57,760 --> 01:36:01,640
Bible actually has examples of
this, like when when God, when

1516
01:36:02,080 --> 01:36:06,000
Jehovah makes the covenant with
Abraham, right, he actually cuts

1517
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:09,440
the animal in pieces.
And Jehovah actually goes in

1518
01:36:09,440 --> 01:36:13,760
between.
It says in Hebrews the New

1519
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:17,480
Testament says God swore by his
own life.

1520
01:36:17,880 --> 01:36:21,040
Yep.
That he would make Abram a great

1521
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:23,800
nation, basically.
OK And in Jeremiah, there's

1522
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:26,320
another example of this.
In the Book of Mormon, we have

1523
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:31,360
Captain Moroni, right?
Raising the title, literally.

1524
01:36:31,360 --> 01:36:35,880
And all the men come running and
they tear their garments and

1525
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:40,400
throw them at his feet and
basically say we will keep the

1526
01:36:40,400 --> 01:36:46,320
commandments and defend liberty.
Otherwise, may those garments be

1527
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:48,960
symbolic of us?
Like, absolutely.

1528
01:36:50,280 --> 01:36:53,000
So yeah.
So when you tear the bread, if

1529
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:56,120
you're faithful, then that's
Jesus flesh.

1530
01:36:56,200 --> 01:36:58,040
Yep.
And if you're not, then what

1531
01:36:58,040 --> 01:37:00,560
you're doing is saying May this
be my flesh?

1532
01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:02,360
Yep.
And that's what it means by

1533
01:37:02,360 --> 01:37:05,120
eateth and drinketh damnation to
your soul.

1534
01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:07,480
Yeah.
And my blood.

1535
01:37:07,640 --> 01:37:08,720
Yep.
Yeah.

1536
01:37:09,480 --> 01:37:14,720
So.
Which unlocks a whole new

1537
01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:21,760
meaning to wine of your own
mate, because wine is blood.

1538
01:37:22,080 --> 01:37:29,400
Right.
So if you.

1539
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:34,920
Yeah, again, you partake of the
sacrament, you do it honorably,

1540
01:37:34,920 --> 01:37:36,560
you're upholding your end of the
bargain.

1541
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:39,360
You're not doing it frivolously.
I don't mean you're perfect, OK?

1542
01:37:39,360 --> 01:37:41,000
That's not.
That's not what the covenant

1543
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:44,200
requires.
No, but but you take it

1544
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:49,120
honorably, let's say, then
that's Jesus's blood.

1545
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:51,320
If you don't, that's your own
blood.

1546
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:56,520
And who made your own blood?
Jesus, I'm well, look, God you.

1547
01:37:56,600 --> 01:38:00,440
Yeah, OK.
Oh, that is wine of your own

1548
01:38:00,480 --> 01:38:03,040
make, OK?
All right.

1549
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:04,040
Yeah.
OK.

1550
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:05,920
I see.
That's wine in your own.

1551
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:09,920
That's you in your own vein,
your very own, your very own.

1552
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:13,160
Flesh and blood is what is what
is on the line.

1553
01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:18,160
So the Word of Wisdom is
actually there's, you know that

1554
01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:22,280
phrase of your own make is.
Carry some some significance,

1555
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:23,760
some weight.
Yes.

1556
01:38:24,280 --> 01:38:32,560
So, you know, this goes, this
goes back to, I mean, I mean

1557
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:35,400
Doctrine Covens 19.
Here's another good example of

1558
01:38:35,400 --> 01:38:35,720
that.
Right.

1559
01:38:35,720 --> 01:38:39,240
If they would not repent, they
must suffer even as I Right.

1560
01:38:39,360 --> 01:38:40,520
Right.
It's going to be you.

1561
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:44,280
Isaiah 49.
I will feed them that oppress

1562
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:47,800
thee with their own flesh.
They shall be drunken with their

1563
01:38:47,800 --> 01:38:51,840
own blood as with sweet wine,
and all flesh shall know that I

1564
01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:54,960
the Lord and thy Savior and
Redeemer the mighty one of

1565
01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:59,960
Jacob.
So you know even of course the

1566
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:05,880
the sacrament has echoes of the
the Passover sure too and the

1567
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:08,960
Word Wisdom at the at the very
end has the Passover promise.

1568
01:39:09,880 --> 01:39:12,600
Right.
Destroying Angel passed by and

1569
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:15,040
you know the the children of
Israel how did they how did they

1570
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:17,320
protect their houses?
They got a lamb.

1571
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:24,360
Whose lamb?
Was it their own lamb and they

1572
01:39:24,360 --> 01:39:26,560
would get the blood of the lamb.
How would they get it

1573
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:29,160
themselves, right.
That was their own.

1574
01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:31,920
That was their own blood.
That was blood of blood of their

1575
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:34,480
own make that they put on the
door.

1576
01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:39,440
OK so.
So there's a lot of that kind of

1577
01:39:39,440 --> 01:39:44,120
symbolism there.
So heavy stuff, that's heavy

1578
01:39:44,120 --> 01:39:49,920
stuff.
So that's I think we that's

1579
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:54,360
probably maybe a good, a good
spot place to stop I guess.

1580
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:56,320
I don't know if you got more
questions or.

1581
01:39:56,360 --> 01:39:58,960
No, I don't think so.
I think we we covered it pretty

1582
01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:06,360
well and as was with most things
as as time goes along it seems

1583
01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:10,960
to get diluted right And so I
always look back and I say.

1584
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:14,760
Why aren't we doing the things
that they did in the early days

1585
01:40:15,560 --> 01:40:19,320
And a lot of people like to just
say, well, it different times,

1586
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:21,560
right?
I mean we you didn't have, you

1587
01:40:21,560 --> 01:40:24,600
know, I've heard all sorts of
excuses, right?

1588
01:40:24,600 --> 01:40:26,520
Like, well, the water was
dirtier back then.

1589
01:40:26,520 --> 01:40:30,200
You didn't want to use that and
and just all sorts of excuses

1590
01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:33,400
that ring hollow.
Certainly.

1591
01:40:33,400 --> 01:40:38,040
I've used wine in the sacraments
we've done at home and there is

1592
01:40:38,200 --> 01:40:43,600
a different feel.
There is a different, a

1593
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:48,520
different level of sanctity
because of that.

1594
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:50,600
And it's not like we're drinking
a lot, right?

1595
01:40:50,600 --> 01:40:52,480
We're still using the sacrament
cups, right?

1596
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:55,680
Essentially.
But it is different.

1597
01:40:56,080 --> 01:41:00,640
It is different that it's his
own blood becomes a little more

1598
01:41:00,640 --> 01:41:04,120
literal in some ways, right?
Because of just its appearance

1599
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:08,120
and and the bitter cup.
I think it's worth pursuing.

1600
01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:12,320
It's worth looking at.
Hey, man, I'm.

1601
01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:14,640
I'm gonna say.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw your

1602
01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:19,120
listeners a bone here, because
some people may still, despite

1603
01:41:19,440 --> 01:41:22,280
everything I've said, everything
we've said, still be just

1604
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:27,160
uncomfortable with proper wine.
OK?

1605
01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:32,000
Used juice.
Yeah, It's better than water.

1606
01:41:32,400 --> 01:41:33,840
And you know what?
I will even.

1607
01:41:34,720 --> 01:41:38,400
I will even grant you a loophole
exemption.

1608
01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:44,800
Because it is true that grape
juice is pasteurized, but it is

1609
01:41:44,800 --> 01:41:48,920
also true that yeast spores are
in the air.

1610
01:41:49,840 --> 01:41:53,760
And so as soon as you pour the
wine out of that hermetically

1611
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:57,880
sealed bottle, you know that
Welch's Grape Juice or whatever

1612
01:41:57,880 --> 01:42:03,360
it is, Winco or Walmart, as soon
as you pour it out, there's

1613
01:42:03,360 --> 01:42:07,080
actually yeast spores in the air
that are going to land in there.

1614
01:42:07,120 --> 01:42:10,720
Yeah, and.
You know, the definition I gave

1615
01:42:10,720 --> 01:42:14,160
earlier of new wine was from the
moment the juice touches the

1616
01:42:14,160 --> 01:42:16,280
yeast until a year.
So.

1617
01:42:17,280 --> 01:42:21,520
So I would, I would grant, yeah,
juice even from a bottle.

1618
01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:24,320
If you opened up the bottle
yourself and poured it out.

1619
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:26,480
Yeah.
And then it touched the air.

1620
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:27,960
There you go.
New wine.

1621
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:30,600
Yep.
The newest possible wine and.

1622
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:34,440
And here's the other thing I'd
say, 'cause I I I have heard

1623
01:42:34,440 --> 01:42:37,680
this before and it was something
quite frankly, I was scared of

1624
01:42:38,120 --> 01:42:41,840
as a guy who used to have and a
horrible drinking problem.

1625
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:46,400
You're a little hesitant, right?
You're a little twitchy, right?

1626
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:51,320
I'll say this, It's pretty hard
to turn back into a raging

1627
01:42:51,320 --> 01:42:54,920
alcoholic from a sacrament cup
full of wine.

1628
01:42:55,520 --> 01:42:59,560
It's a different animal.
Not to say there's no such thing

1629
01:42:59,560 --> 01:43:03,800
as winos 'cause.
There are, but it's it's pretty

1630
01:43:05,560 --> 01:43:10,000
Chances are if if you're
practicing A sacrament, you've

1631
01:43:10,000 --> 01:43:13,160
probably worked your way beyond
that a little bit.

1632
01:43:14,200 --> 01:43:15,680
Right?
So.

1633
01:43:16,120 --> 01:43:17,800
That's good.
The other thing I'll say too,

1634
01:43:17,800 --> 01:43:21,840
you mentioned like space
constraints or equipment or

1635
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:27,000
whatever in this book.
Actually, the recipes that I

1636
01:43:27,160 --> 01:43:35,600
have, I recommend actually that
people's first experience making

1637
01:43:35,600 --> 01:43:38,240
wine is in a 2 liter bottle.
Right.

1638
01:43:38,240 --> 01:43:42,320
So you get A2 litre bottle with
juice and some yeast just bread

1639
01:43:42,320 --> 01:43:47,680
yeast is fine and and a balloon
stretched over the top to keep

1640
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:51,080
the air out with a hole with a
pinhole in it.

1641
01:43:51,520 --> 01:43:53,840
That's that's all the space and
the equipment that you need

1642
01:43:53,840 --> 01:43:58,080
basically.
So it's not, it's not hard if

1643
01:43:58,080 --> 01:44:02,160
you get if you get online and
try to read about making wine,

1644
01:44:02,360 --> 01:44:04,320
it's going to be overwhelming
and it's going to be.

1645
01:44:04,960 --> 01:44:07,120
Technical and there's going to
be all these terms that you

1646
01:44:07,120 --> 01:44:09,200
never heard of and it's going to
be intimidating.

1647
01:44:09,440 --> 01:44:12,400
Those aren't made for the
religious user those are made

1648
01:44:12,480 --> 01:44:13,800
for.
Those are wine snobs.

1649
01:44:13,800 --> 01:44:19,040
Yep, we're talking about you
need you only like people do

1650
01:44:19,040 --> 01:44:21,960
this in prison.
OK, so it's real easy.

1651
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:27,600
Don't do it in your toilet.
It's real easy.

1652
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:29,280
It's nothing to be intimidated
over.

1653
01:44:30,040 --> 01:44:34,000
I think a lot of that stuff is.
Like just snobbery for the

1654
01:44:34,360 --> 01:44:36,600
purpose of snobbery for the
purpose of luxury?

1655
01:44:36,600 --> 01:44:37,240
Sure it is.
Yep.

1656
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:40,080
You know, and that, I mean,
that's OK too, but but it

1657
01:44:40,080 --> 01:44:41,880
doesn't need to be intimidating
or difficult.

1658
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:46,720
It's quite easy.
So that's what I got to say, you

1659
01:44:46,840 --> 01:44:50,760
know, awesome.
Repent if you're, you know if

1660
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:54,720
you're using water.
If you've been using water and

1661
01:44:55,160 --> 01:45:00,240
means are available to have wine
of your own make, then you

1662
01:45:00,240 --> 01:45:02,120
should be doing that.
It is.

1663
01:45:02,720 --> 01:45:06,240
It is what Savior directly
commanded.

1664
01:45:06,440 --> 01:45:11,320
Yep, directly commanded.
And I think there's there's not

1665
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:14,720
really an excuse.
So if you're if you're in a, you

1666
01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:19,200
know, a group or a church that
doesn't allow it, then then do

1667
01:45:19,200 --> 01:45:23,160
it at home.
You know, because you know you

1668
01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:28,600
don't want to following the
prophet or your leader, whatever

1669
01:45:28,680 --> 01:45:32,160
is great.
But you don't want to.

1670
01:45:32,480 --> 01:45:36,320
But you're you are responsible
for your own soul as well,

1671
01:45:36,440 --> 01:45:38,320
right?
Work out your own salvation

1672
01:45:38,320 --> 01:45:40,040
before the Lord with fear and
trembling.

1673
01:45:40,120 --> 01:45:46,280
Yeah, yeah, right.
Joseph kind of famously said,

1674
01:45:46,280 --> 01:45:53,120
let's see, I don't know if it's
in the book, I think here, but

1675
01:45:53,200 --> 01:45:56,920
you've kind of famously said
that, you know, the Saints were

1676
01:45:56,920 --> 01:46:00,240
kind of.
Their minds were darkened,

1677
01:46:00,400 --> 01:46:04,720
right?
Because they were just following

1678
01:46:04,720 --> 01:46:09,440
their their leaders, even in
error, I think it was he was

1679
01:46:09,440 --> 01:46:12,200
referencing Moses when the
people were refused to follow

1680
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:17,320
Moses up the mountain.
Yes, yes, yeah, he read from

1681
01:46:17,320 --> 01:46:19,800
Ezekiel.
Anyway, can't find it right now.

1682
01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:22,440
But I think you're familiar with
the quote, but I, you know I

1683
01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:24,960
think that's the last thing that
any.

1684
01:46:26,680 --> 01:46:28,880
Any the leader of any church
would actually want, no one

1685
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:32,680
would actually say, yeah, follow
me, even in error, no one wants

1686
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:33,240
that.
Right?

1687
01:46:34,080 --> 01:46:38,640
And everyone makes errors, you
know, I'm not, you know,

1688
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:44,720
disparaging that.
But when when you have received

1689
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:49,640
greater light and understanding,
then, then don't refuse that.

1690
01:46:50,200 --> 01:46:56,080
Be cautious, but be bold.
Absolutely, absolutely.

1691
01:46:56,080 --> 01:47:00,080
There's there's and.
And like you said, I mean, like

1692
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:02,880
we talked about, there's rich
symbolism there to be had.

1693
01:47:03,280 --> 01:47:08,880
And look, if you're a POWI, we
the Lord gets it, right?

1694
01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:10,520
Take the sacrament with what you
got.

1695
01:47:11,080 --> 01:47:14,880
But if you have the means, you
have the ability.

1696
01:47:17,840 --> 01:47:21,000
There's there's what the Lord
will accept, and then there's

1697
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:22,960
the preferred method.
I have heard.

1698
01:47:23,360 --> 01:47:25,000
OK, and maybe you know something
about that.

1699
01:47:25,000 --> 01:47:30,400
I've heard that baptism by
sprinkling was first out of,

1700
01:47:30,400 --> 01:47:34,440
like, expedience, because I
think it was Constantine.

1701
01:47:34,520 --> 01:47:39,440
Yep, he's on his deathbed and
they can't really go dunk him.

1702
01:47:39,440 --> 01:47:43,840
So he gets sprinkled just out of
a because of the situation.

1703
01:47:44,120 --> 01:47:46,480
Yep.
And then that becomes the norm.

1704
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:49,800
That becomes the standard.
And you think is God happy with

1705
01:47:49,920 --> 01:47:52,600
baptism by sprinkling just
because it He tells you he is

1706
01:47:52,600 --> 01:47:54,640
not?
Yeah, yeah.

1707
01:47:54,640 --> 01:47:59,240
When, when there's water
available, you, you better not

1708
01:47:59,240 --> 01:48:03,120
be doing something contrary to
what was commanded.

1709
01:48:03,240 --> 01:48:05,400
Absolutely, yeah.
If you're out in the, if you're

1710
01:48:05,400 --> 01:48:08,400
in the middle of the Sahara
Desert and you know you're a

1711
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:11,280
fellow, you got someone else
stranded there with you and

1712
01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:14,240
they've never been baptized, you
know, maybe maybe sprinkling's

1713
01:48:14,240 --> 01:48:15,280
appropriate then.
I don't know.

1714
01:48:16,600 --> 01:48:19,760
But I would say that when you
get back to civilization, you

1715
01:48:19,760 --> 01:48:21,320
better don't.
Come do it properly, right?

1716
01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:23,040
Absolutely.
That's exactly right.

1717
01:48:23,240 --> 01:48:25,200
Good stuff.
Well, dude, that was awesome.

1718
01:48:25,200 --> 01:48:26,600
Thank you.
Yeah, My pleasure.

1719
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:28,200
Awesome.
All right.

1720
01:48:28,720 --> 01:49:02,560
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

1721
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:03,920
Renegade podcast.