Episode #102: Changing Ordinances, Changing Priesthood W/Drew Briney

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One of the biggest things we as
fundamentalists watch for is

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changing ordinances.
It's pretty important stuff.

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As Joseph Smith said, if there's
no change in ordinances, there's

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no change of priesthood.
Now this seems pretty simple on

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the surface, but when does
something become a change versus

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cleaning up the language of an
ordinance?

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Well, the day I have Drew Briny
back on the podcast to talk

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about his new book, Changing
Ordinances, Changing Priesthood,

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that tries to explain just that.
Drew comes on and breaks down

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historical incidences of change
both in and out of the LDS

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Church and evaluates what those
changes mean to us as Mormons

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and disciples of Christ.
That's next on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
OK, just a couple of quick

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announcements here.
If you're looking for a place to

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attend sacrament meeting and
don't know where to go, I want

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you to reach out to me, me and
other stand ready to help you

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find a spiritual home, whether
that's a new church, a gathering

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spot of independence, OR even if
you just need a soft place to

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land for a time to learn how to
have sacrament meaning in your

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own home.
Myself and others stand ready to

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help you find that place.
All you got to do is just drop

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me a line at
mormonrenegade@gmail.com and

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we'll quickly reach out to you
to help you find the place you

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want and need to be next.
I have felt for a while now that

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the sisters haven't had a good
place to go to have their

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questions answered without a
bunch of dudes creeping around

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to fill this need.
My wife, Tanya has set up a

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Facebook group just for women to
talk about questions about

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fundamentalism.
The name of that group is Mormon

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Fundamentalism for Women.
Now just a warning, if you're a

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dude thinking about trying to
jump on this site, I'm going to

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give this to you in my best Liam
Neeson impression.

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I have a certain set of skills
and I'll find you and I will

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publicly mock you endlessly
without mercy for many, many

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weeks.
So whether you're a

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fundamentalist woman seeking
sisterhood or a woman

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investigating fundamentalism,
this place is for you again.

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The name of that Facebook group
is Mormon Fundamentalism for

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Women.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse.

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To become and raise men and
women of virtue and character is

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a Herculean task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com, go to the
bottom of the page, search out

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the blog post, and order your
copy.

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Today I can bear personal
testimony from personal

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experience that this is an
invaluable tool to help you

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raise men and women of virtue
and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Good.
Welcome back, big guy.

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Thanks, sorry I got a pop up on
my on my computer.

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No problem, it happens.
Yeah, everything going good.

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Most everything.
Yeah, super glad to.

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To you know I'm I'm out here
kind of sort of on my own and

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it's it's so good to have
somebody to chat with about the

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gospel and and visit about these
things and even just stay and

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pray together is super cool.
So yeah, I'm happy.

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It's good.
Well dude, if you're happy to

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talk to me, you need to get
better friends.

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So, well, I'll take that under
advisement.

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Yeah.
Well, dude, I'll tell you what,

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your project that you were
working on with the Doctrine and

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Covenants, I know a couple
people who grabbed, grabbed some

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of that.
They were astounded.

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And so when I saw that you had
yet another book coming out, I

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was like, oh, we got to talk
about it because the title of

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it, the title of it even, is
intriguing because this is one

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of those things that that I find
you have to really dive into

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when you get into Mormon
fundamentalism, Right?

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Is the and I'm pulling it back
up, 'cause my phone kind of died

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is kind of here.
It is the changing ordinances

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and losing priesthood.
This is something you have to

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contend with when you first come
into fundamentalism.

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This, this is what I like to say
sometimes, might be most

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people's first, oh, crap moment
as they begin to really look

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into this because.
Yes, this question throws into

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doubt for a lot of folks like is
it valid?

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Is it not valid?
So when I saw the title I was

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like I had, I had to get you on.
But So what?

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What?
What prompted this book?

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Oh gosh, you know, a a a few
things.

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I actually and I I I tease in
the introduction and I I tease

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on Facebook that I wrote it on
accident, but it really is kind

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of true.
I tend to do my gospel studies

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and keep everything written down
and prepared so I can annotate

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it, write cross references, that
sort of stuff.

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And so I've been compiling stuff
for this for literally for 20

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years.
But there's, you know, there

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have been a couple few books
that got put out in the interim,

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excuse me, that I was intending
to write all together.

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So originally my concept for
writing a book on changing

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ordinances was going to be.
Kind of with Debri Anderson

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wrote the development of LDS
temple worship and and burgers,

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mysteries of godliness, you
know, kind of expand on that.

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That was kind of my initial
intention and I I just perceived

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it as this monster big project.
But that was really kind of what

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converted me to fundamentalism.
I mean, to me that was that was

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the doctrine that really
mattered.

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Adam God teachings converted me
to that doctrine and that

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understanding of the Godhead and
those types of things, but it

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didn't move me to be a
fundamentalist.

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When I read about changing
ordinances like you said, that

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was my, oh crap moment.
What does this mean?

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So I I've been intending to
write that part for a long time.

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The the second part of the book
I I didn't intend to write at

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all.
That was the real accident.

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And pulling it together was kind
of what what what happened here.

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So, you know, I I think for
fundamentalist, it's not very

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uncommon for them to know that
Joseph Smith taught if you

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change your ordinances, change
the priesthood, change the

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priest to change your
ordinances.

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If there's no change of
priesthood, no change of

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ordinances, you know, all these
makes like 4 statements that

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modus tollens tells you you can
you can conclude the world from

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those things.
And when I say modus tollens for

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anybody who doesn't know.
I mean if you say if it's

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raining, there are clouds,
that's always true.

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But if you say if it's not
raining there are no clouds,

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that's not true.
So Modus Tolland says the way to

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find truth out of things.
And this is a old just logic

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construct, you know, developed
by the early Greeks as far as I

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understand.
They say if the if the if you

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negate the the second part, it
negates the first part.

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So if you say that if there are
no clouds it is not raining,

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those are always true as a as a
matter of logic.

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And with the statements that
Joseph made, every everything

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becomes logically put there.
If you change ordinances, that's

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that will change the priesthood.
But if you change the

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priesthood, that will change the
ordinances.

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If you don't change the
ordinances, if it's the same,

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there's no change.
There's been no change of

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priesthood.
And you know, all of those

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things you can extrapolate the
world from from all of those,

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but they're all very, very
strong statements.

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And you know, if you if you have
any sort of mind at all.

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You you have to be concerned
about that and and there are

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ways to get around it and
there's some actually I think

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better arguments than people
usually use that I put in the

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book to get around it.
But they're they're very far

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from satisfying.
OK, now I don't want to give

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away the book here, right?
But I do maybe want to go over a

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couple of examples, maybe
someones that that you find

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especially problematic with with
the changes that that you have

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seen that that are really kind
of rough stuff to have to deal

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with.
Because, look, about 40% of my

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audience are active LDS folks
who are coming in to listen.

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They're they're coming in
because they obviously have

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concerns and some of these come
up, some of them don't.

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To you, what was?
What are some of the more

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problematic changes here to
ordinances that you've saw?

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Shoot if you want while you
think about it.

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I can give you mine.
OK.

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Probably the one, the one that
I'm, I'm most concerned about

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because its implications are so
far reaching.

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This was between 1921 and 19.
I want to say 53 or 57.

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I can't remember.
But they changed how men were

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received the priesthood.
Yes, they They stopped

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conferring the priesthood and
just ordained straight to an

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office.
Yes.

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Yeah.
Well, on the surface people

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might say, well, it's just
semantics, right?

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It doesn't.
It doesn't change anything.

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Well, I dare to disagree.
Right.

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I believe it was Brigham Young
who said you can't give

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something you don't have right?
And so ordaining straight to the

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office throws into question the
validity of actually holding the

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priesthood.
Right now.

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That's a good 30, right around
35 years.

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Right now I have a buddy who's
who's a a physicist of all

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things, so he deals a lot with
statistics and certainties.

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And that was like, OK, I need
you to do something for me.

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I I remember I concocted like
this story to try to veil what

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it is I was looking at.
Not that he was LDS, but I was

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like, I don't know how I feel
about it.

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And he just finally said, just
tell me what you're really

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looking at.
I was like, OK, here's the deal,

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right?
And I explained this thing to

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him and he says, OK, let me, let
me, let me run some numbers.

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So he goes and gets like, Mormon
birth rates for the that period

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of time.
And he, you know, starts doing,

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excuse me, doing some averages
and those sorts of things.

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And he came back and I'm like,
well, how many people today do

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you think actually hold the
priesthood in the LDS church?

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And he's.
Like just about under 1% now.

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Wow.
If you extrapolate that time

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out, 'cause they never went back
and corrected it, they just

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started ordaining the correct
way again under I believe it was

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McKay.
And so you have essentially two

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generations that never received
the priesthood correctly.

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They don't go back to correct
it, and you have no idea who has

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it and who doesn't.
But it's a very small number as

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it gets perpetuated through and.
Let's let's fascinating on that.

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It's cool.
You got those numbers.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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So it's it's pretty it's pretty
stark.

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And and that was one of the
changes that I saw.

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That was one of my severe, oh oh
crap moments like.

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So now that, what does that mean
for temple rites?

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What does that mean for
baptisms?

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What does that mean for any
number of things?

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And then I believe it was Taylor
who had that prophecy about

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there'd be a day in the church
where you wouldn't know who had

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the priesthood, I think he said.
Or.

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Or they thought they had the
priesthood, but they didn't.

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And I wondered if that tied
directly in with his revelation.

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Interesting.
Yeah.

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You know, I I paused so long.
Would you ask me that?

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Because I.
It kind of at some level, I

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think they're all equally
problematic, right.

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And and you're talking about not
giving my book away and and

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00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,520
frankly I think it's just maybe
necessary to address some of

226
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,400
those issues here.
The book is actually pretty

227
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:24,280
short by the way it's 108 pages.
So this is not a a monumental

228
00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,280
huge.
Does it have pictures, Drew?

229
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:32,760
No, no pictures.
There are a couple headers that

230
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,600
you have some good space, so you
know, I'm never Green Eggs and

231
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,520
Ham kind of guy myself.
So there's no pictures.

232
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:41,560
I don't know.
This is the.

233
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,600
You know, a lot of people really
like the shorter books, and I

234
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,760
just want to get a nugget and I
don't tend to write those.

235
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,000
That tends to be really hard for
me because I want to hit

236
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,400
everything.
And this was actually kind of

237
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:55,840
difficult for me because I
didn't.

238
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,360
But let me let me throw throw
out some early examples.

239
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,000
Of of kind of how I approach it
in the book.

240
00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:08,200
So there's a Times in the Season
article and it's written by

241
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,880
Junior.
And so who's junior?

242
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,960
It's probably Joseph Taylor's
the editor.

243
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,920
The it's it shows up in four
different installments of the

244
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,280
magazine, and the basic thrust
of it is all of Christendom

245
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,320
lacks the priesthood because
they don't do baptisms right?

246
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,280
Paul clearly says it's by
immersion, and if you read

247
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,760
Romans 13, it's very clear it's
by immersion.

248
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,560
And if you don't do it like
that, then you're doing it

249
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:43,920
wrong.
And I I've thought about this

250
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:45,800
long and hard for multiple
reasons.

251
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,760
This whole idea of changing
ordinances, especially the last

252
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:53,120
few years because there have
been a few new documents, come

253
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,200
out to really challenge this
idea as to what does that mean?

254
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,160
So I think this was really
significant because he says,

255
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,920
well, you changed baptism
because it was by immersion and

256
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,160
now it's not.
He doesn't talk about symbolism.

257
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,840
He doesn't talk about anything
else, just about immersion.

258
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,760
Sprinkling's not good enough.
You know, it says you're being

259
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,600
buried.
How are you being buried?

260
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,560
If you're getting sprinkled, you
know, maybe by a tsunami, that's

261
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,720
OK.
But you know it needs to be

262
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,960
underneath.
So he's pretty adamant about

263
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,800
that and and that gives us one
clue of what does it mean by a

264
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,080
change.
But the thing that struck me,

265
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,040
that I've been reading over the
last few years and finding more

266
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:41,240
and more evidence of made me
kind of rethink this whole

267
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,040
teaching, this whole, this whole
doctrine.

268
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,240
So let me give you one example
here.

269
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,840
How how do we know baptisms by
immersion?

270
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,920
Well, because Paul said so.
OK, well that's great.

271
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,120
As Mormons do we believe in non
canonical texts?

272
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,240
Oh no, those are wicked.
They haven't been sustained by

273
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:03,320
the prophet or something, you
know.

274
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,240
But frankly I can find temple
ordnance stuff all over non

275
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,360
canonical texts that aren't in
the New Testament.

276
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,640
Really deep awesome stuff.
Read the Apocalypse and Moses,

277
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,080
Read discourse on Abaddon, Read
the Fall of the Archangel

278
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,680
Michael.
Really great stuff there that

279
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,080
teaches Mormonism.
That is anti Christian in as

280
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,160
much as it's Mormon and it's non
canonical.

281
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,880
There's great stuff there and
and and as I study early

282
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,800
Christian history I I stop and
say OK so so Paul said it's by

283
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,760
immersion but what does Paul
give us a baptismal prayer.

284
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,280
We don't have a baptismal prayer
in New Testament.

285
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:42,880
Does he tell us it's for the
remission of sins?

286
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,440
Well, yeah, it kind of says
that, but.

287
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,160
You could also argue that that's
he's talking about something a

288
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,880
little bit different because of
the context and, you know,

289
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,960
getting Greek and argue about
stuff like that, but does it

290
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,120
tell you that it makes you a
member of the church?

291
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,000
Definitely does not clearly
state that.

292
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:05,319
So what about these things?
You know, if we read about early

293
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:08,640
Christian baptisms, they don't
say these things.

294
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,960
They don't have our baptismal
prayer, so.

295
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,079
You know, if you trust Joseph's
Revelator, then you say, OK,

296
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:17,640
well we've got the baptismal
prayer.

297
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,720
Great, OK.
But did you reveal everything?

298
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,760
Did you reveal everything in
baptism or was that one thing at

299
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,839
a time too?
He didn't do re baptisms

300
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:30,360
immediately.
He didn't do baptisms for health

301
00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:32,280
for a while.
Those were the things that kind

302
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:39,360
of came later.
So so that this question of how

303
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,320
do we know what the original
was?

304
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:48,400
Is a really big question.
Do we have an 1843 version of

305
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,400
the endowment?
Joseph wrote his notes.

306
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,640
No.
Do we have Brigham Young's 1877?

307
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,960
February was February 2nd, 1877.
He finishes up in the L John

308
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,080
Nunn Journal and he says this is
the one that'll be the example

309
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:04,560
for all temples for all future
generations.

310
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,320
Do we have that?
No.

311
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,000
So wow.
So we had some problems.

312
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,400
We do have some.
Some.

313
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,560
Some talk about Brigham
tampering with some of the

314
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,560
dialogue, but it doesn't show up
in any of the modern versions,

315
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,200
so that doesn't constitute a
change, at least.

316
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,760
We don't know if any of
anything.

317
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,720
And we have Joseph giving him
the junction to put everything

318
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,400
in order, 'cause it wasn't in
order, right?

319
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:31,520
But did he give it to him word
for word?

320
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,320
Did he?
Did Brigham have to find some of

321
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,360
those words were later?
Did he receive a vision that

322
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:38,200
says, OK, this is when Adam says
this.

323
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,160
We have none of that
information.

324
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:47,080
So what constitutes change?
So this question is where

325
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,760
mainstream LDS people are just
like, well, in fact somebody

326
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,600
even wrote whenever I announced
the book, they said, well, what

327
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,960
was the word they used?
They said it's it's not a

328
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:08,160
change, it's a adjustment.
And I'm like, right,

329
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,360
Everything's an adjustment.
I mean, you look at the synonym

330
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,240
under change, you find
adjustment there.

331
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,600
It's there's some reason to make
me feel good that I don't have

332
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,960
to worry about this.
I don't want to worry about it

333
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,880
because I want to believe I'm in
the right spot.

334
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:27,080
But none of the arguments of
change really make a whole lot

335
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,760
of sense, frankly.
But there are two things that I

336
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,520
bring up in the book, and I'll
I'll spoil them because I'm not

337
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,240
not too worried about them.
But that I think are super

338
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,600
fascinating and one I I didn't.
In fact, when I sent it out to

339
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,920
all my editors, I didn't even
include this and I ended up

340
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,960
using it for footnote.
And then I got all excited about

341
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,400
it and did a bunch more research
and this was it.

342
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,440
It it anyway it's it's maybe too
far off topic for the book to

343
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,680
hit it deeply, but I think maybe
for podcast it's OK.

344
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,560
So for about 400 years,
Christian baptisms were done in

345
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,640
the need.
And that's news to a lot of

346
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,080
people.
And they're like, oh, that can't

347
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:09,520
be true.
Guess what?

348
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,600
The very first pictures we have
of Christ's baptism, He's nude.

349
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,840
Guess what?
When we have people talking

350
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,040
about baptisms, in the earliest
church, they're doing it in the

351
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,280
nude and the and for about 200
years they were Coed nude,

352
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,560
baptisms.
But then after about 152 hundred

353
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,560
years, we don't know exactly.
You know, we don't have super

354
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,960
good records of those things.
They started separating the man

355
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,440
from the women.
And I just found one night, I

356
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,400
quote it in the book that's
thanks.

357
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,960
What's it?
There's a new book out.

358
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,640
I I don't know how new IT is.
I was super excited about it,

359
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,560
'cause I was planning on writing
it and it saved me writing the

360
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,480
book that was going to take me
20 years to get to.

361
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,400
But it's Mormon doctrine is
found in pseudepigraphal and

362
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,240
apocryphal writings of the.
I think I may have had that guy

363
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,480
on multiple times.
His name's Ken Peterson.

364
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:03,280
Yeah, yeah, Peterson, that's
what.

365
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,200
I was.
I've had a a few times and we

366
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,560
covered just that book and some
of his stuff.

367
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,400
And especially like the Pista
Sophia, which has some amazing

368
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,640
temple doctrine in it.
Yes, yes.

369
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,760
And so, yeah, he's been on,
he's, I'm a huge fan of him.

370
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:17,880
He's he's a great guy.
Yeah.

371
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,720
So I'm not met him.
I don't know anything about him,

372
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,560
but I was shouting his praises.
I was so excited he caught it.

373
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,480
I bought that book and as I was
writing I thought footnotes.

374
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,640
I thought, you know, I wonder if
there's anything, you know, the

375
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,400
the baptism of prayer maybe
shows up in one of those and

376
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,680
he's got a little excerpt in it
and he's got a a place in there.

377
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,360
I don't want to say it's an
occiped or something, but

378
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:42,600
whatever it is, I cited the
book.

379
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,120
You can find it.
But the the priesthood holder,

380
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:55,040
it tells one of the women, he
says take her and and get her a

381
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,480
girdle or something like that so
that she can be baptized.

382
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,720
So she's wearing a girdle and
nothing else to get baptized.

383
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,080
So basically she's topless, but
she's got, you know, towel on

384
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,600
the bottom type thing.
So that's really disturbing to a

385
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,600
lot of members of the church,
disturbing to a lot of

386
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,000
Christians.
Nobody likes to talk about it,

387
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,720
but that seems to be universal.
And all the records that we have

388
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,000
all seem to point to that.
They didn't like that.

389
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,240
And then they poured like it
sounds like a bucket of oil on

390
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,600
them, you know, like it wasn't
just a little bit of oil on the

391
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,200
head.
It was like all over their body.

392
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,720
And then they said baptizing in
the name of Father, said the

393
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:35,440
Holy Ghost.
Amen.

394
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,760
You know, so it's not a full
baptismal prayer, but it's, it's

395
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:44,400
got part of it.
So that well, that's that's

396
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,760
really interesting.
But how do we know if that's

397
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,960
important?
Is that a change or not a

398
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:50,600
change?
Right.

399
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,920
Did they attribute any
significance to that?

400
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,080
Yes, they did.
In fact, the significance they

401
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,440
attributed to us, if you're
getting baptized with clothes

402
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,680
on, you're trying to hide your
sins from God.

403
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,320
You're trying to hide your sins
from all these people.

404
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:09,040
It's better just be open.
And I am who I am and I am not

405
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,960
hiding anything from God and I'm
being born anew.

406
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,760
I was born naked.
I'm gonna be re baptized or you

407
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,600
know, come be born again naked.
That was their symbolism.

408
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:23,240
Well, I think it was Peterson's
book that led me to a citation.

409
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,480
I looked up, citation went up to
the original source, and it was

410
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,120
like early Christian practices
or something.

411
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,920
And then there they cite another
reason and they say, well, you

412
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:38,520
were baptized in remembrance of
Christ who was crucified naked,

413
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,400
and that's why you were baptized
naked.

414
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,120
So it wasn't just that they were
doing it as a practice.

415
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,880
It's not like a cultural thing,
you know, which would be so far

416
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,960
beyond our culture, even
comprehend they had doctrinal

417
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,400
significance attached to that
part of the baptism.

418
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:04,280
It meant something to them and
it was doctrinally significant

419
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,360
and it made the ordinance more
meaningful to them because of

420
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,080
it.
So is that a change to the

421
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,240
ordinance?
And you know, if it is a change

422
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,520
to the ordinance, it wasn't
revealed to Joseph to do it that

423
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:16,960
way.
He never says anything about it.

424
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,640
Closest thing we've got for
Joseph is an ordinance in Nauvoo

425
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,960
saying quit skinny dipping at
the within city limits, you

426
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,080
know.
So you know that's the closest

427
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,480
clue we could possibly have,
which I don't think means

428
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,800
anything by the way.
I'm just saying there's there's

429
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,800
nothing there.
And and so if we didn't reveal

430
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,600
it, does that mean it's not good
or does that mean that our

431
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,800
generation is not deemed worthy
to receive it?

432
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:46,560
You know, I'm not, I'm not
promoting one way or the other.

433
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,800
I'm just looking at this and
saying, is this a change or is

434
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,040
it not a change?
So that's one type of approach

435
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:57,200
that I think is interesting and
somewhat problematic in in

436
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,680
looking at changes to
ordinances, because Joseph

437
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,720
himself is the one mocking
Christians, because you changed

438
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,160
the ordinance, because you don't
do it by immersion.

439
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,840
But when we read the ancient
documents, none of us did the

440
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,480
same way the ancient earliest
Christians do either.

441
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,160
So that was one thing that got
my attention that I thought was

442
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:22,640
of interest.
The second thing I, I, I, I

443
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,040
originally this has been a
couple years ago.

444
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,720
I was either talking to the
Jacob the dream or I was reading

445
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,880
something he posted or
something.

446
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,520
I don't know, I don't remember.
But he was talking about how

447
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,600
Brigham did sacrament prayers
extemporaneously.

448
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,400
And so anyway, I I kept some of
those citations and looked them

449
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,160
up, and I looked up other
sources for, you know, Brigham

450
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,080
teaching of these things.
And I I I frankly didn't find

451
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,440
all the original sources that
Jacob talked to me about

452
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,440
originally.
But I I don't think it matters.

453
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,120
I got plenty there.
But there was a there were a

454
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:07,120
couple quotes I found at Brigham
complaining to the Saints

455
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:11,760
saying, you know there were
scarcely 3 words in that

456
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,880
sacrament prayer that that are
in the scriptures.

457
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,600
You need to follow it more
closely.

458
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,040
So in modern church they're like
you got to say word for word.

459
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,680
We've got like 3 of Brigham's
prayers in in documented and he

460
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,320
doesn't say word for word once
but he does rebuke people

461
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,280
because they didn't use enough
of the words, it wasn't close

462
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,160
enough to it.
So that suggests this idea that

463
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,880
the wording itself, and I'm not
talking about whether it's One

464
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,400
Cup or 4, two cups, or whether
it's broken 1st and blast first,

465
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,680
bless, then break if you use the
signs or not.

466
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,480
I'm not talking about any of
those details, but the wording

467
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,240
he suggests is a template, not a
word for word.

468
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,000
Mandatory, you know this is how
you have to say it.

469
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,320
But of course, with baptisms,
that's exactly what we have.

470
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:09,240
However, there's example #2.
Joseph Smith instructs Oliver

471
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:14,040
County, DNC 20 is in the making
and we're putting some of the

472
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,520
ordinances there.
So that's where you find

473
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,160
sacrament, prayer and all that
sort of stuff.

474
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,600
He says, I want you to get the
baptismal prayer and put it in

475
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,080
DNC 20, get ready for DNC 20.
So Oliver County does, Where

476
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,240
does he get it from?
It's it from third Nephi, right?

477
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,880
But there's a problem.
He doesn't copy it word for word

478
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,520
and put it in DNC the same way.
So and I don't I don't have the

479
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,400
exact thing in my head but the
one says having been

480
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,760
commissioned of I think this is
DNC 20 having been commissioned

481
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,960
of Jesus Christ had baptized
even in father's right that's

482
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,320
not what it says through Nephi.
Through Nephi it says having

483
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,120
authority from or having you
know well they mean the same

484
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:58,000
thing so we we we just OK with
that.

485
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,040
The church says stick with DNC
20 because we like it and they

486
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,680
don't really give any
justification for it.

487
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,520
But actually Joseph told him to
copy from Book of Mormon.

488
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,480
So isn't the Book of Mormon one
more accurate?

489
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,160
But you say, well, Oliver Cadery
made several changes to the

490
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,440
Doctrine of Covenants that
Joseph did not approve and we've

491
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,600
got Ors and Pratt complaining
about that later whenever they

492
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,560
did a later edition.
And and Joseph made hundreds and

493
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,400
hundreds of changes to the
Doctrines of Covenants to fix

494
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,120
what Oliver Cadery was doing.
And when Oliver Cadery did DNC

495
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:37,320
120, he didn't make a really
technical change to the

496
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,880
baptismal area like in that
verse or the verse before or

497
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,040
something.
But he doesn't change that.

498
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:49,160
So that maybe does that suggest
that it's a template to it

499
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,480
doesn't have to be word for word
because he changed the wording

500
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,920
and he didn't care.
Oliver Catter changed the

501
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,920
wording and Joseph didn't care.
Now we can argue, and I don't

502
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,400
know, did did Joseph not notice?
It's possible.

503
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,920
Did Joseph read over it?
Say it means the same thing?

504
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,440
close enough.
That's possible.

505
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,520
I mean, we certainly don't
insist that you say having been

506
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,640
commissioned to Jesus Christ.
I'm baptizing the name Father

507
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,040
said Holy Ghost.
If you're Swedish, nobody knows

508
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,800
it, so you translate it, you get
the meeting and that's close

509
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,720
enough.
So there's something there.

510
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,680
Suggests the words were intended
as a template.

511
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,360
So the third example I think is
interesting and and again to

512
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,600
make this point, it's something
to think about.

513
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,280
I'm not saying right or wrong,
it's something to think about is

514
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,280
we recently thank you Joseph
Smith papers, my heroes.

515
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,600
They published A revelation
given from Joseph to oh shoot,

516
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,000
won't say Sydney Rigdon, but
that's not right.

517
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,480
Again, I quote it in the book.
So shoot.

518
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,920
Oh, acceptance drive me crazy.
Dang.

519
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,240
Anyway, Joseph was going to
marry this guy's daughter.

520
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,160
No, K Whitney, I think.
So he's going to marry his

521
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,320
daughter.
So he gives him, he writes him a

522
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,800
letter and he says these are the
words that you use for the

523
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,600
ceremony.
So he gives him the sealing

524
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,320
ceremony.
But guess what?

525
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,200
There's scarcely 4 words in
there that are in our sealing

526
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,160
ceremony.
It's very, very different.

527
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,880
I mean, you can see parallel
ideas and that sort of stuff.

528
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,000
If you go back and look at the
sacrament prayers that Brigham

529
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,600
was giving, you can see him
following the general idea of

530
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,840
the sacrament prayer.
You know, he's using it as kind

531
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,360
of a guidepost of what he's
going to say.

532
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,000
But he adds some extra stuff.
And you know, he treats it like,

533
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,800
you know, the the priesthood
manual where it says when you

534
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,640
bless somebody, this is what you
do.

535
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,200
You say I could for the
priesthood, I redeem the

536
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,120
psalmist and words of blessing.
The spirit directs name Jesus

537
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,520
Christ, Amen.
You know, and I want authority,

538
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,600
that sort of stuff.
It's all, it's all in a linear

539
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,080
fashion.
But if you mess everything up

540
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,800
but you get all the parts in
the, you know, maybe the wrong

541
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,840
order but you get them all
there, it's good enough.

542
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,960
We'll just let it slide.
The Bishop's not gonna say too

543
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,840
much, right?
So it it seems to me that's kind

544
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,120
of what he's saying.
The sealing ordinance is a

545
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,200
blessing to you and it's
supposed to be offering you

546
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,960
greater blessings than not
getting you sealed on blessing.

547
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,280
If you just went to a local
Bishop and said hey Marius for

548
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,760
time, you're gonna get a
different ceremony you know.

549
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,800
But it's it seems to be offered
more as a template so Joseph

550
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,600
Smith writes a a letter
essentially kind of a revelation

551
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,120
form to I believe it was new K
Whitney who's going to marry his

552
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,840
daughter and he's basically says
here's the sealing ceremony.

553
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,080
But if you compare that sealing
ceremony to what we have that or

554
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,880
some published unpublished
revelations of how it's done in

555
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,920
the temple, not nearly the same.
There's some basic guideposts

556
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,280
there and it's very, very
different.

557
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:07,640
That was really challenging for
me because as a as I had, a big

558
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,160
portion of the reason I became
fundamentalism is because of

559
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,200
this doctrine.
If you change your ordinances,

560
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,880
change your priesthood, well
that's a change, right?

561
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,000
It is a change.
I mean, you might be OK, but it

562
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,160
is a change.
Now I have to say, well, maybe

563
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,520
there's some argument here.
There is a good reason to say

564
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,080
nothing important was changed.
Just you know the prophet knows

565
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,920
what's important to change or
what's not important to change.

566
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,800
At some point that loses all
validity.

567
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,880
It just sounds like stupid.
You know that that the endowment

568
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,440
used to take 6 to 8 hours, now
it takes less than two.

569
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,240
Nothing important got taken out.
Right.

570
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,080
You know, the Brethren, the 12,
went to Joseph and said, is

571
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,000
there something we could do to
shorten the endowment's awfully

572
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,720
long?
And and and you know what

573
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,440
Joseph's response was?
We have to do things precisely

574
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,560
as God set them down.
We can't be changing stuff, you

575
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,080
know, so, so this, so we have
these.

576
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,840
This brings up some questions in
my mind here.

577
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,400
Now that let let me let me ask
this.

578
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,920
I don't mean to cut you off, but
we have Brigham who is it sounds

579
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:19,240
like adding stuff more than not
saying things in the in the

580
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,800
sacrament.
In the baptismal thing, you

581
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,920
pointed out that the ancients
did it somewhat differently than

582
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:33,160
what we do, clothing optional,
if you will, and then we have

583
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:34,920
this thing with the sealing
ceremony.

584
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,520
My question is this because as
I've looked at history and and I

585
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,440
want to defer to you here
because you're far more

586
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,320
knowledgeable than I am about
the progression of these things.

587
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,960
How much of this is just Joseph
receiving a little and then?

588
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,480
Refining it.
Likewise with Brigham, he was

589
00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:00,240
asked to systematize and
organize the endowment it.

590
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:06,480
I think it would be somewhat
silly to assume that some words

591
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,639
or something wouldn't have to be
added to get quote the temple

592
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:15,239
drama quite right.
And and so.

593
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,120
If if if I'm understanding
correctly here, then we have to

594
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,960
start making a decision on
what's outside the pale of

595
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,000
Orthodoxy, right?
And then how do we decide where

596
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,880
that line is?
Where you are?

597
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,440
You are now not within Orthodoxy
when it comes down.

598
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:36,960
Yeah.
Yeah.

599
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,960
And that's challenging on
multiple levels.

600
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,360
So first of all, Joseph in
teaching, in introducing this

601
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,480
teaching and I should have said
this earlier, I mentioned it in

602
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:48,960
the book.
It's super crucial.

603
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,840
I I think from my perspective, I
can see a lot of people not

604
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,760
seeing it.
So, but Joseph started teaching

605
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,280
this doctrine first because he
was restoring the fullness of

606
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,440
the priesthood.
So he was teaching the people.

607
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,520
There's no change in ordinances
if there's no change in

608
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,280
priesthood, if there's if
there's a change in priesthood

609
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,120
to get new ordinances.
So I'm going to be introducing

610
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,080
the endowment, I'm going to be
introducing the fullness of the

611
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,280
priesthood through the 2nd
announcement and that requires

612
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,040
new priesthood.
And he didn't have it and he

613
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,360
speaks about receiving it in the
future tense.

614
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,680
Even though he received his
sealing power in 1836 from

615
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:31,880
Elijah, he he he said I'm going
to get new priesthood and he

616
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,960
speaks about Elijah coming to
restore a fullness of the

617
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,880
priesthood in like the 1840 or
something 1841.

618
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:45,840
So I think we read about this in
DNC 132, verse 45, DNC 132 verse

619
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:53,480
45 and I'll read it to you
because I think it's glossed

620
00:35:53,480 --> 00:36:04,200
over, but it's super crucial.
So he's he's basically DNC 132

621
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,560
is kind of a blessing that he's
receiving, right?

622
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,160
And God's speaking to him.
If you want to say it's Jesus,

623
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,080
or if you want to say it's the
Lord, you want to say it's God,

624
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,320
I don't care.
But this is what verse 45 says.

625
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,600
I have conferred upon you the
keys and the power of the

626
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,840
priesthood, Wherefore I restore
all things and make note unto

627
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,200
you all things in due time.
Joseph repeats this wording in

628
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,440
the last charge over and over
and over and says, and we find

629
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,640
this, and it's just all over my
book, the the Lord himself set

630
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,080
his hand to establish the
fullness of the priesthood on

631
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,240
the earth in the last days.
And that's what he means by

632
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:43,360
restoring or whatever he means
by established.

633
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,480
So he's saying here, how, where
did Joseph receive the fullness

634
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,080
of the priesthood keys?
You know that he says I'm gonna

635
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,280
receive more priesthood, that
I'm gonna that that's gonna give

636
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,800
me more ordinances.
Elijah's gonna restore it.

637
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,680
Maybe Elijah restores it, but
God seals it upon his head.

638
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:05,480
OK, And I think this is
crucially significant for for

639
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,160
multiple reasons.
But now I'm going to get back to

640
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:13,680
verse 5 briefly, and we gloss
this over is this, this is a

641
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,000
casual statement, but I don't
think this is casual at all.

642
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,040
All who will have a blessing at
my hands.

643
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,400
So we think, oh, it's being
metaphorical.

644
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,080
You know you would.
This is DNC 130 verse 20, right?

645
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:32,040
There's a lot of revocably to
create in heaven.

646
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,880
If there's any blessing we can
receive, it's because of beating

647
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,120
a commandment.
That's not what it says.

648
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,200
It says you want a blessing at
my hands, You want me to lay my

649
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,360
hands on your head.
And he says you shall abide the

650
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,000
law that was pointed for that
blessing.

651
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,000
And the conditions thereof were
instituted from before the

652
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,720
foundation of the world.
So I was reading that and I

653
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:54,000
understood.
So he's saying DNC 132 is about

654
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,600
how to receive your calling
election.

655
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,720
Sure.
Receive the ceiling power from

656
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,320
God himself.
And that's what it's about.

657
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:10,000
But and and so later I was as I
was researching DNC 132 for my

658
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,200
DNC Annotated, which I haven't
finished that section.

659
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,000
So that's a ways away.
But as I was reading that

660
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,960
Brigham Young when he introduced
DNC 132, he doesn't say, hey,

661
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,280
here's a revelation about plural
marriage.

662
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,440
Neither does he say here's a
revelation about celestial

663
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:26,400
marriage.
What it says.

664
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:29,200
Here's a revelation of how to be
exalted.

665
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,800
Interesting.
This is teaching you how to be

666
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,200
exalted.
If you do read DNC 132, it talks

667
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,680
about sealing power.
It doesn't just talk about the

668
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,080
plural marriage, it talks about
Emma's temptation.

669
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,640
It it specifically says I have
converted this priesthood upon

670
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,400
you to restore for the last
days.

671
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,080
So you know there's more going
on here than just how we usually

672
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:59,400
read it.
And so at any rate, so this to

673
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:04,320
me is a is a really, really big
challenge and a big problem for

674
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,800
the church.
When was the last person that

675
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,680
you said Christ laid his hands
upon my head and conferred upon

676
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,320
me this, this blessing, right,
Joseph Smith?

677
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,880
In the teachings of Prophet
Joseph Smith, he, he talks about

678
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:26,840
this, but in the words of Joseph
Smith, he says God himself

679
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,200
ordained all of the prophets,
not some of them, all of them.

680
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,600
So the apologist just says,
well, that's because God, you

681
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,160
know, God's laid his hands on
all the prophets since Joseph.

682
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,880
And so that's they just don't
talk about it.

683
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,320
Well, that's nice.
But if that's true, then guess

684
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,440
what we would expect?
We would expect there's no

685
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,400
change to the second endowment,
right.

686
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,520
So exact same now as it was
before.

687
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,080
Is that what we find to be true?
No.

688
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,720
Werger's mysteries of godliness
has the whole chapter donated to

689
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:01,960
him saying, I was asking the
church leadership, do you guys

690
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,240
do this anymore?
And they could have said none of

691
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:07,000
your business.
They could have said that's too

692
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:08,240
sacred.
We don't talk about it.

693
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:11,240
They could have said, you know,
we're not talking to a story

694
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:12,680
about these things, but they
didn't.

695
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:18,640
What they said was it's not
essential to your exaltation and

696
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,680
it's really nothing more than
just a blessing.

697
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,480
And it's not necessary.
So you know, it's not really

698
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,360
happening.
And we also have in Hebrew, J

699
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,840
Grant's time.
What's the brother's name?

700
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,080
Some of my friends will make fun
of me for not knowing that I'm

701
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,160
sure they'll know.
But one of the members of the 12

702
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,560
went to Hebrew J Grant.
They said President Grant, like

703
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,480
9-9 of the 12 haven't had the
2nd anointings.

704
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:46,800
We were taught when I was young
that this was essential for our

705
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,800
exaltation, that we could not be
exalted without this ordinance.

706
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,000
And nine of the 12 don't have
it.

707
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,280
Can I give it to them?
And he would jig around.

708
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,960
It's like, OK, I wasn't really
excited about it.

709
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,480
Well, guess what one of the
requirements for plural marriage

710
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,680
was before then?
You had to be plurally married.

711
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,560
So I think Grant's looking at it
and saying, well, these people

712
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,200
aren't really qualified and
that's why they haven't received

713
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,520
it.
And it's you know, I, I don't I

714
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,080
don't know he's a he's an
enigmatic figure in church

715
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:26,480
history but at the end of the
day he's not really doing it in

716
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:31,720
in Borger further outlines in
his book how many second my

717
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,200
things were given, you know
throughout 780 years of history

718
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,720
or something.
And it goes from like one in

719
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:44,840
eight in Nauvoo time received
their second endowment to like

720
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,800
3A year in like 1970s or
something or 60s or whatever.

721
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,480
It was almost nothing.
Is that a change?

722
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,040
Well, the the ordinance itself
is not being shown that it's a

723
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,320
change.
But you're you're telling people

724
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,400
you have to have this to be
exalted, and now you're saying

725
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,800
you don't.
Well, that's a change of

726
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,400
doctrine, a change of principle,
which also we have teaching,

727
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,240
saying gospel principles don't
change.

728
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:16,000
Gospel laws don't change.
Expectations of God for you

729
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,640
don't ever change and you know
these things.

730
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,560
So and there's there's some
challenges there I addressed in

731
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,920
the book too.
But at the end of the day, that

732
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,960
is kind of a change.
But the bigger thing Werger's

733
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,520
got from them writing him and
saying, well, it's not essential

734
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,880
for exaltation.
It's just really a blessing.

735
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,400
It's it's not just a blessing if
you read the, if you read the

736
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,840
ordinance from the earliest
accounts we have, there's more

737
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,520
going on here than just a
blessing.

738
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,280
For one.
There's a conferral priesthood,

739
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,000
and for two, there's other stuff
going on.

740
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,760
And for three, there's stuff
that happens between the husband

741
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:55,120
and wife after after it's done.
And for four, all of Calgary

742
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,440
teaches, and Joseph Smith, I I
mentioned earlier, teaches.

743
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,440
If you're going to have this
priesthood sealed upon you, it

744
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,400
has to be done by God.
It's not done by your priesthood

745
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,760
leader.
It's not because President

746
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,520
Nelson says, hey, I'm going to
give this to you and I get

747
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,600
everything.
You might have all the

748
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,600
priesthood, but you don't have
all the power.

749
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,160
That only comes from the Lord
himself.

750
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,080
And you know, that's that's
important.

751
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:25,480
So to me, at the end of the day,
that's the most important one

752
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,320
for me because I look at it and
I say, OK, so the church has

753
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,040
basically admitted we don't have
it.

754
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,320
So a couple years ago, people
are saying the mission president

755
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,960
goes and says, I resume my
second meaning for the

756
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,200
priesthood, you know, blah blah,
blah.

757
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:40,600
And the people are saying me
too.

758
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,600
I'm like, well, even if you did,
they've admitted they changed

759
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:49,160
it.
And here's the problem there.

760
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,880
And this is to me the most
profound issue that really hit

761
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,840
me is it is I was originally
learned this and as I've come to

762
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,720
understand it better, Joseph
says I'm going to introduce the

763
00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:05,600
2nd anointing and 2nd, whatever
you want to call it, I'm going

764
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,040
to have to receive more
priesthood to give this to you.

765
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:12,160
So is teaching them about this.
And he's teaching them in

766
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,120
context of Paul teaching it in
Hebrews Chapter 7 in Galatians

767
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,960
3, where he's saying the early
church only had Levitical or God

768
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:21,960
was going to give them a
Kesnick.

769
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,480
But then they all had Levitical
and they had to have more in the

770
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,480
New Testament or else because it
wasn't able to save them.

771
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,200
And I'll talk more about that in
a minute, but he's, he's saying

772
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:32,600
I have to receive all this
priesthood.

773
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,160
Well, what is the second
endowment for those members of

774
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,280
the Church who don't know?
Joseph taught and very clearly

775
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,480
Brigham taught and shared and we
have accounts of other people

776
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,520
saying what Joseph taught
including apostates and and

777
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,200
members of the 12 and nine
members of the 12.

778
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:50,800
All the like they all say the
same thing.

779
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:57,960
He gave Joseph gave the fullness
of the priesthood there could

780
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:03,600
ever be bestowed man on earth.
Everything that Joseph had is

781
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,680
all that God ever gave any man
and all that any man on earth

782
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,040
will ever receive.
Not only did they teach this,

783
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,920
but they also taught that was
saved for all eternity.

784
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,560
So if you're a mortal on earth,
fullness of the priesthood is

785
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,200
all you're ever going to get.
So if you change that

786
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,560
priesthood, what does it mean?
You lost it, right?

787
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,320
Maybe.
Maybe you.

788
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:23,040
Yeah.
I mean you.

789
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,040
There's a lot.
I mean, you got Deacon, teacher,

790
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,840
priest, you know, you've got,
you know, elder high priest,

791
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,600
7012, you know, blah, blah,
blah.

792
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:31,800
Then you got fullness of the
priesthood.

793
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,280
So maybe you only go down to 12
apostles or something, you know,

794
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,520
but you still lost something,
right.

795
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,760
And.
And that's a big problem.

796
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,160
So, you know, some people say,
well, OK, well, we lost some

797
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,440
priesthood, but we've got enough
to carry on the Kingdom, So it's

798
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,320
good, right?
Right.

799
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:51,840
And that's where the second part
of my book became more

800
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:57,680
interesting to me.
So let me backtrack briefly to

801
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:03,640
this idea in in Hebrews 7 and
Galatians 3 where Paul says and

802
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,600
and Joseph Smith talks about
this in teaching the Prophet

803
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,880
Joseph Smith quoting the same
scriptures as well, he says

804
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,480
Moses in in in the GST I think
is Deuteronomy chapter 10.

805
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,360
Moses comes down and he's going
to give the fullness of the

806
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,680
gospel to the Israelites, right?
But they're worshiping a golden

807
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,680
calf.
He's like Danks breaks the

808
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,640
tablets, he goes back up, He
comes back with 10 commandments,

809
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:29,560
which frankly, is a super lame
compromise if you ask me.

810
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,360
I mean, if I say what, what
would I rather have all the

811
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,800
light knowledge of the endowment
and the fullness of the gospel

812
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,080
or the 10 commandments?
It's really a dismal

813
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:45,160
deconstruction of the gospel.
So he gives them this.

814
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,800
Joseph Smith says, why did he
give it to him?

815
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,480
Well, because they they.
He says God gave it to the

816
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,360
Israelites as a curse for their
unbelief.

817
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,520
And he further says the ironic
priesthood never could bless.

818
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,440
It could only administer
cursings.

819
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,320
Now in Hebrews 7, Paul says,
well, we had the Aaronic

820
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,920
priesthood, but you know, it
couldn't save men.

821
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,520
Only the Melchizedek Priesthood
can save men.

822
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,480
Joseph kind of pulls out of
that, that section and and

823
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,280
that's what Christ gave to them
whenever he restored the gospel

824
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,520
and his dispensation, you know.
And so now they have the

825
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,120
mochestic priesthood again, the
early brethren and Joseph Todd

826
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,440
that Peter, James and John
received the fullness of the

827
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,120
priesthood and their endowments
on the Mount Transfiguration.

828
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,320
So when mochestic priesthood is
restored, now they can save

829
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:39,560
people, now they can bless
again.

830
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,320
So this, this idea comes up
again in Galatians and says if

831
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,680
the ironic priesthood was able
to save people, then why did we

832
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,800
get more, Why did why did Christ
come?

833
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,000
You know, it wasn't enough.
We had to have more.

834
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,600
So this is how Joseph is
teaching and and and there's

835
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:03,520
this idea that there are laws
under the ironic priesthood and

836
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,600
we're supposed to obey those.
That's the Old Testament.

837
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,160
But then those laws can only
administer cursings.

838
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,760
So we have to get the Mochesde
priesthood, which is the only

839
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,720
priesthood that can bless, so
that we can bless people and

840
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:19,920
give to ceilings and all this
sort of stuff, Right?

841
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,520
We can actually now give people
ordinances unto salvation and

842
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,880
ordinances unto exaltation.
So this is a huge part of the

843
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:33,160
teaching about why he's getting
new priesthood and why there's

844
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,560
these new ordinances.
It's all kind of interconnected.

845
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,400
So if we turn around and say,
well, had the fullness of the

846
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,280
priesthood, but now we don't get
it anymore.

847
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:44,960
Dang.
Well, what about the

848
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,960
Apostleship?
Well, we've got the Doctrine

849
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,000
Covenants.
I think it's section 112.

850
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,800
It's in the book, if I had
misquote that, but it basically

851
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,200
says the apostleship will never
be lost on the earth.

852
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:59,160
It's not super clear.
It's a little bit vague, but it

853
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,080
seems stupid for, from my
perspective, for it to be there.

854
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,440
If that's not what it means, But
you could argue the point,

855
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,280
that's not what it means.
So you can say, well, there's no

856
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,960
clear promise the Apostleship's
gonna remain on the earth

857
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:12,840
either.
So now what do we've got?

858
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:14,720
We got High Priest.
We've got McKenzie Priesthood.

859
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,360
Well we've got two very strong
statements that the ironic

860
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:20,960
priesthood will never be taken
from the earth.

861
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,520
And John promised that when he
ordained all recounting Joseph

862
00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:27,800
and then when Peter, James and
John come and they ordained him

863
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,720
to the elder and given the
mochestic priesthood they give

864
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:33,960
them the similar promises will
never be taken in from the

865
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,640
earth.
So if you, if you're like, well,

866
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,080
shoot, at least we got mochestic
priesthood.

867
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,440
But how far?
Because mochestic priesthood

868
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,240
Elder, because the priesthood
high priest, because the

869
00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:48,000
priesthood apostle, because
priesthood.

870
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,320
Fullness of the apostleship,
fullness of the priesthood.

871
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,800
What, what does that mean?
So now we've got that challenge.

872
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,400
So this is where I got involved
in the second-half of the book.

873
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:04,720
In the second-half of the book,
you know, we've got, if you look

874
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:09,440
at most every Restoration group,
and maybe all of them depends on

875
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,080
how you want to argue,
ordinances have all been

876
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,680
changed.
So they've lost priesthood,

877
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:18,760
right?
That's that's just what Joseph

878
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,720
taught.
Or the changes don't matter at

879
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:24,000
all, which again, I think it's
pretty problematic.

880
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:31,120
And OK, don't don't let me
forget promises about the

881
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,240
fullness of the priesthood.
That's also in Joseph with

882
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:35,640
actions and insights.
Last charge of Transfiguration

883
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,120
book that's frankly better
source for it.

884
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,000
But my book, Changing
Ordinances, Losing Priesthood,

885
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,240
takes all the pertinent stuff,
puts it all in one spot.

886
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:44,560
So that's that's how it's
useful.

887
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,760
So when we look at the sacrament
prayer like you were talking

888
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,400
about earlier, Brigham's
complaining they're not using

889
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,240
enough the sacrament words
because they're not having the

890
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,480
meaning intended in the
sacrament prayer.

891
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:05,920
When Joseph allows the change to
the baptismal prayer or doesn't

892
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,240
notice and it's just been
perpetuated, it conveys the same

893
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,480
meaning, right?
It's the same idea.

894
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,440
And you could look at the
ceiling blessings that Joseph

895
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,000
gives to Mill K Whitney
comparing to what we have

896
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,400
recorded from Orson Pratt this
year in unpublished revelations

897
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,760
and say it conveys the same
meaning.

898
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:31,120
You know, there's an intention
of retaining the teaching.

899
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,520
But if you look at the changes
to the endowment and you're

900
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,040
like, OK, so the covenant
between husband and wife is

901
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,720
basically emasculated,
eviscerated, maybe even reversed

902
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,040
with all the feminist revision
stuff that was happening there,

903
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,600
does that change the meaning?
Oh, yeah, it very much changes

904
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,000
the meaning.
I I don't think you could

905
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,160
reasonably intelligently argue
it doesn't change the meaning

906
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,600
unless you wanted to say, well,
the earlier brother and were

907
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,800
just showing his pigs and they
didn't really get it.

908
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:02,200
And the true prophet knows
better.

909
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:07,600
In which case, like, well, it's
changed anyways.

910
00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:12,160
Joseph's the one that revealed
that, and Joseph is the one who

911
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:14,560
said you can't change it or
you're changing priesthood.

912
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,120
I think that's problematic
'cause that is not the same

913
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,120
meaning.
Now if you want to take out the

914
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,960
preacher and say, well, you
know, the preacher see, was just

915
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:28,160
offensive and it's anecdotal,
maybe we can get away with that.

916
00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:31,560
Maybe he said, well, yeah,
wasn't that important.

917
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:36,800
It doesn't change your
understanding of the plan of

918
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,720
salvation on Earth that much,
you know.

919
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:42,920
But then we start looking at
other things to say, well, you

920
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:47,720
got rid of all the all of the
penalties.

921
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,520
Well, you still have the
injunction that you shouldn't

922
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,200
share it.
Yeah.

923
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,120
But you know what the symbolism
behind those penalties is?

924
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,240
Because people don't.
But when they do understand

925
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:03,840
those things, I think there's a
massive significance to that.

926
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:09,240
Yep, absolutely.
And and and then you go on with

927
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:12,960
the the signs and you know
there's some changes there and

928
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:14,640
you go through the entire
endowment.

929
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,360
So much has changed.
It's like, is the same meaning

930
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:19,880
there anymore?
Well, I don't know.

931
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,000
Let's, let's look at this
objectively speaking.

932
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,360
We have Brigham Young's
endowment that says Adam is God

933
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,160
the Father, and then you have a
church position now that says

934
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,080
that is a heresy and it's one of
the deadly heresies and you

935
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,040
should be excommunicated just
for believing it.

936
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,640
Now some people get honoring
with me about saying that, but I

937
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,800
know people that were
excommunicated for believing it

938
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,520
even though they promised never
to teach it.

939
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:50,080
So can you say that you changed
who is God and that retains the

940
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:54,160
meaning?
It just it gets hard to look at

941
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,640
all of these things and
seriously honestly, look at the

942
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,480
changes in the endowment saying,
yeah, it's it's pretty much the

943
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:05,920
same teaches all the same stuff.
You know, I've I've had way too

944
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,880
many conversations with people
in the temple about the changes

945
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,400
in the temple and some are like,
I am so glad they got rid of

946
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,520
that chauvinistic stuff.
I am so glad they got rid of the

947
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,600
covenant to the husband because
he doesn't know what he's doing.

948
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,920
He's such a dork.
And you know all these types of

949
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,840
things and you know they are
happy about the changes because

950
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,120
it what it changes their
behavior, it changes their

951
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,760
understanding, it changes their
belief and it changes how they

952
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:33,680
interact with their partners,
their spouses.

953
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,000
And that is a fundamental
change.

954
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,560
You cannot argue the meaning was
changed.

955
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,680
Why else were they griping about
it and asking it to be changed,

956
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:49,200
right.
So then you have in in

957
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,040
connection with that you have
the brethren say can't change

958
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:53,800
the garment.
The pattern was revealed by

959
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,040
heaven.
It's it doesn't say.

960
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:00,760
And when we do have accounts of
that argument, you know proving

961
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:02,480
that's that was what Joseph
said.

962
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:07,080
This was revealed to me by
heaven, by an Angel you know and

963
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,400
they said this was revealed by
heaven.

964
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,280
The exact pattern.
But but we're going to change

965
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,120
it.
That's not a change.

966
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,120
I mean you know it's it's
completely mutilated from from

967
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,800
what it used to be and that's
the exact word Joseph F Smith

968
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,360
used.
He said you cannot mutilate or

969
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,120
change the garment.
So again we're we're changing

970
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:32,320
all these things.
One more thing that I think is

971
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:34,880
super interesting and I don't
know how far afield this is from

972
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,680
what I was writing in my book
versus just interesting for the

973
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:43,360
podcast that when I read Debri
Anderson's the The Development

974
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,480
of LDS Temple Worship, I was
heartbroken over it.

975
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:51,640
It was really really hard for me
to read that I've I've been told

976
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,680
and I haven't met Devery.
I I don't know if this is true

977
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,200
but I I've been told that he's
happy about the changes.

978
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,520
He's like yeah this is so glad
the church has got profit that's

979
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,600
making these changes and getting
rid of bigotry or whatever is in

980
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,040
there.
You know, I don't know if that's

981
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,440
true or not.
He's he does a really good job

982
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,280
of kind of keeping his personal
opinions in a minimal in the

983
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:14,440
footnotes and that sort of
stuff.

984
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:21,040
But it it really was painful for
me to read and I noticed two

985
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:25,640
things that maybe were of note
that that really struck me about

986
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,720
it.
And the first one was Wilfred

987
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:32,680
Woodruff changes the law of
adoption and he says, Joseph

988
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,840
reveals you were to be sealed to
a living man who's got a

989
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,200
fullness of the priesthood and
that's who you're going to be

990
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,040
sealed to.
And Wilfred Woodruff says, Nah,

991
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,520
just get sealed to your dad, you
know, That made sense when the

992
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,440
church was restored.
But now everybody's got a good

993
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:49,640
dad.
We'll just be sealed to our dad.

994
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,640
Well, that doesn't work for a
lot of people because their dads

995
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,520
never received the fullness of
the priesthood and they don't

996
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,840
even care about that anymore.
That that doesn't matter either.

997
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:01,760
He doesn't have to be have
fullness of the priesthood.

998
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,440
You can, you know, get sealed to
him after he's an elder now.

999
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:11,040
But anyway, he made this change
and and he left room in his

1000
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:15,040
journal for the change to be
recorded, but never recorded any

1001
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,680
revelation on the matter.
So I thought, you know, this is

1002
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:25,840
really interesting because this
is this seems like it was a

1003
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,200
source for a lot of changes for
the this is what I'm thinking

1004
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:32,280
when I'm reading the book.
As I'm reading the book I'm

1005
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,560
recognizing and and and I didn't
do this for every single thing

1006
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,400
that I saw.
But I'm recognizing that pretty

1007
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:45,040
much I would say 8090 at least
80% of the got to be more like

1008
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:49,160
95% of all the changes that were
ever made to the endowment can

1009
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:54,920
be traced back to that one
changed And in the 1960s some

1010
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,520
mathematicians came to Wolver
Woodruff.

1011
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,000
Sorry, I think it was David O
McKay.

1012
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,200
I'm not positive.
And they said, you know, we're

1013
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,320
mathematicians and
mathematically speaking, we're

1014
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:08,680
never going to get the temple
work done.

1015
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,360
And they said, well, wait a
second, but how are we never

1016
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:13,360
going to get the temple work
done?

1017
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,080
Are you saying we're not
inspired and doing temple work?

1018
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,760
And I said, no, no, we're, you
know, we're, we're following

1019
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,000
brethren guides, but
mathematically can't be done

1020
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,920
unless we shorten the endowment.
And so they started looking at

1021
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,840
shortening this the length of
the endowment so it could all be

1022
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,000
done.
And then, and I understand that

1023
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,160
they also made it to where they
put it for a while to where you

1024
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,560
could literally get your
endowment, get baptized for the

1025
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,480
dead, and then, you know, get
your second anointing and be

1026
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,440
ordained an elder and that sort
of stuff too.

1027
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,240
And they're like, well, as long
as it all gets done, doesn't

1028
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:49,640
matter what order.
That's fundamentally contrary to

1029
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,200
every understanding I've got of
the purpose of the ordinance to

1030
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,720
the previous two.
But anyway, that was going on

1031
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,280
for a while.
I don't know if it still is, but

1032
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,440
as I as I was looking at all
these things, they're like

1033
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,040
mathematically doesn't work.
We gotta shorten the endowment.

1034
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:05,960
So let's shorten this and let's
shorten this and let's shorten

1035
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:07,960
this.
And so I'm looking at all these

1036
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:09,240
things.
I'm like holy Flip.

1037
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:14,160
You know, all these go back to
the law of adoption because if

1038
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:18,720
you're not doing ancestry work
for all of your dead, they

1039
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,840
didn't used to do it that way.
They said pray about it and your

1040
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,200
ancestors will come to you and
the ones who come to you do the

1041
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,600
work for them.
That that's a whole lot less

1042
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:30,200
work than what we do now.
And if we do that and then we

1043
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:33,360
get sealed to a living person
with the fullness of the

1044
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,680
priesthood, that then we don't
have to do that work for our

1045
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:42,400
dad, you know who maybe won't
accept all of that, or a grandpa

1046
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,360
who maybe won't accept all that,
Or on and on it goes.

1047
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,840
So all these changes can be
changed or can be brought back

1048
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,520
to the law of adoption because
it needs to be short and short

1049
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:55,000
and shortened.
And so Heber G Grant in his

1050
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,840
administration, he writes down
in his journal that he's, you

1051
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,360
know, contemplating getting rid
of an ordinance, doesn't say

1052
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,880
which one, but presumably the
2nd anointing because that's

1053
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:07,280
essentially what he did, and
changing some of the others to

1054
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,600
make it shorter.
And then we compare that with

1055
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,800
Joseph when the 12 approached
him and said, can we make the

1056
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:13,440
indomitable shorter?
He says no.

1057
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,280
So either Joseph's right or
Heber J Grant's right.

1058
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:20,800
And that goes back to the follow
the modern prophet.

1059
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,840
But for me, if you've got to pit
the prophet against one another,

1060
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,560
there's a problem.
And guess who's the one who

1061
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:29,440
warned us of the problem?
It wasn't Hebrew J Grant, it was

1062
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,160
Joseph.
And he said don't do this, this

1063
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,920
is bad news, man.
So I think that's fundamentally

1064
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,320
a problem.
And and two more quick points

1065
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:44,560
here.
One of the things that that I

1066
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,680
read in Deborah Anderson's book
that really struck me is when

1067
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,880
they were, they were talking
about that they did a street

1068
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:51,680
garment for a while that was
different from the temple

1069
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,080
garment.
And one of the temple presidents

1070
01:00:54,080 --> 01:01:00,040
as I recall was asking, I think
it was Joseph F Smith, I'm

1071
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,000
pretty sure.
Sorry, Joseph Fielding Smith.

1072
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:06,560
Hey, we've got this tradition
that when we put on the temple

1073
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:12,280
garment in through the
initiatory ceremony that we do

1074
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:14,480
it right foot first and then
right arm and then left foot

1075
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:18,040
first and left arm.
Is there anything to this?

1076
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,160
And and again, I could be
getting some of the details

1077
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:23,560
wrong.
I'm pretty sure it was the

1078
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,000
temple garment, not the street
garment they were talking about.

1079
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,600
But the the order is the
important thing you say and

1080
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:34,120
we're trying to get rid of all
the the innovations he called it

1081
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:35,480
that have snuck into our temple
work.

1082
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,280
So that's why the temple
president's asking is this an

1083
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:43,000
innovation or is this important?
And Joseph Fielding Smith said I

1084
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,520
see no significance and no
importance to that.

1085
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:55,240
I don't know of any and and I I
just that really hurt me.

1086
01:01:55,480 --> 01:02:01,200
I felt so badly because the
symbolism behind that in in

1087
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:07,280
receiving the full garment is
very profound and in in, let me

1088
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,400
just give you in terms of Hebrew
symbolism.

1089
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:16,560
In Hebrew symbolism your foot is
the direction you're heading.

1090
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,720
Your right foot is your
spiritual side.

1091
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:26,120
It is your, you know the the the
God side the Godhead side.

1092
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,600
Your left side is the temporal
side or the wicked evil side or

1093
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:32,720
things of the world side.
Right.

1094
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:37,040
So if you do the right foot
first, it's saying do the gospel

1095
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:41,520
first, live, you know, take care
of your teach your kids the

1096
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:45,320
gospel and teach your wife the
gospel, and those things go

1097
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:49,560
first and then.
But that's just the direction

1098
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:53,080
your foot is first, right?
So what's what is that symbolism

1099
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:54,640
in the hand?
Well, that's what you're doing.

1100
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,680
So you're moving your body in
the direction of spiritual

1101
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:00,840
things, and then you're doing
spiritual things first.

1102
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:02,880
Then what do you do now?
You move your left foot.

1103
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:05,960
You do temporal things
secondary, you know, you move to

1104
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,480
do temporal sigs, then your hand
is what you're doing, so you're

1105
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:13,880
doing temporal things secondary.
That's not symbolism that you

1106
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:16,800
can't figure out in life, right?
Put the put the first, the

1107
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:20,080
Kingdom of God, blah, blah,
blah, you know, that sort of

1108
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:22,080
stuff.
But the fact that it's part of

1109
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:26,280
an ordinance and then that's
being taken away.

1110
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,040
I I start looking at all those
things and say there's a lot of

1111
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,400
beautiful stuff that was left
out because people didn't

1112
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,920
understand how.
How cool is that?

1113
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,520
Is that OK?
Does that not matter?

1114
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:46,880
You know, So here's, here's the
here's the big clincher for me

1115
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:51,120
on all of these things.
So I can make an argument that

1116
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:53,760
all the changes to the temple
endowment, whether in the church

1117
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,720
or in the in the stringites or
in the cut rights or whoever's

1118
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,400
doing it, I I don't know if
stringites doing or not or I

1119
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:01,800
don't remember, but I know the
cut rights were and they changed

1120
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:03,680
it.
Whoever's doing the changes,

1121
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:06,960
they can't be getting more
priesthood.

1122
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:12,040
That's not possible.
So any change is giving them

1123
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,400
less priesthood.
So let's assume that all these

1124
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,560
changes are OK because they're
just following the template and

1125
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,600
these other little things were
just superfluous.

1126
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:24,920
You don't have to have the
preacher saying he gives

1127
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,960
somebody $500, you can change it
to 10,000 now, and then you

1128
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:31,200
might be more modern, accurate.
Maybe that doesn't matter, so we

1129
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:32,440
can make that argument, you
know?

1130
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:38,320
But if that was the case,
wouldn't you expect that we're

1131
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,080
growing closer to God than the
early Saints?

1132
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,840
Wouldn't you expect that modern
Day Saints would know more about

1133
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:48,920
the plan of salvation than the
Saints of Joseph's day?

1134
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,080
This episode of the podcast is
brought to you by Deseret

1135
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,720
flag.com.
I've said this before, and I

1136
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,200
really mean it.
Mormonism isn't just a religion,

1137
01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,440
it's a culture.
As such, it has its own

1138
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,200
vernacular and practices, but
also its own symbols.

1139
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:05,000
And those symbols become even
more important and prominent

1140
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:06,600
when you look back into our
history.

1141
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:09,160
Perhaps one of the most
recognizable symbols of

1142
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:12,760
Mormonism is the Deseret flag.
This is the flag that I use as

1143
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:16,360
cover art in this podcast.
This was also used for a good

1144
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,720
chunk of time during the Pioneer
era in Utah.

1145
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,960
Now, today we have people who
want to replace the existing

1146
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:24,960
Utah flag with some other
progressive monstrosity.

1147
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:28,120
Well, I think it's damn past
time that we start pushing back

1148
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,920
here a little bit in Utah.
Our friends at Defending Utah

1149
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:33,280
are here to help you with that.
Now, if you go to

1150
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,000
deseretflag.com, you can now
purchase your own Deseret State

1151
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:39,240
flag.
It's time here that we start

1152
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:42,440
making ourselves known and join
the resistance against those who

1153
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,400
seek to rewrite our state's
history.

1154
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:49,360
Go to deseretflag.com or check
out the link in this episode's

1155
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:51,600
page Show notes and get yours
today.

1156
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,240
Can't get enough of the Mormon
Renegade podcast?

1157
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,880
Well, good news.
We're on Patreon and there's

1158
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:58,600
three packages that you can
choose from.

1159
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,280
The first one, the Slightly
Rowdy package, allows you to

1160
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,280
hear the podcast without all
those pesky commercials getting

1161
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:07,520
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For those who want a slightly

1162
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:09,800
more in depth experience,
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1163
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,920
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1164
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,600
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Finally, for those who want to

1165
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:19,960
go full Renegade, that package
is available too, where you can

1166
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,720
get everything in the previous
two packages, plus an extra show

1167
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:27,080
where myself and Ben Winfield
breakdown the news of the day

1168
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:28,840
from a very Mormon point of
view.

1169
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:33,280
You will also get exclusive
access to Renegade Chat and on

1170
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:35,480
there you'll be able to talk to
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1171
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:37,240
whatever topics are on your
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1172
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,840
Go to Patreon today and get your
exclusive content.

1173
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:43,560
And indeed, that's kind of what
the Church teaches.

1174
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,320
We know better.
And you know, they were just

1175
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:46,680
learning and growing, but we
know better.

1176
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:52,920
But if you sit down with it,
pick anybody and, you know,

1177
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:56,760
average, just randomly take a
sample of 100 Saints from the

1178
01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:59,720
whole planet and maybe you get a
scholar or two in there,

1179
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:03,240
whatever, and you say, OK, tell
me everything you know about the

1180
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:04,880
plan of salvation, Let's map it
out.

1181
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:07,320
You can write your little
diagrams and all that sort of

1182
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:09,400
stuff.
And then I want to compare how

1183
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:11,960
much, you know, I'm going to ask
questions when you're done.

1184
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:16,560
For instance, what is the
ceiling of a father to his

1185
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:19,000
daughter?
How is that different than the

1186
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,160
ceiling of a husband to his wife
in the eternities?

1187
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,120
When we're making worlds
together, like, how is that

1188
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:27,440
different?
Like, does the daughter ever

1189
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:31,200
make a world with her dad or is
she forever lost to him or do

1190
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:32,720
they make it together?
How does that work?

1191
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:36,040
Well, I've asked lots of Latter
Day Saints, that kind of

1192
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:37,520
question.
Like I never thought of that.

1193
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:40,880
And in fact I don't think I've
ever met a Latter Day St. that

1194
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:43,440
I've met that was mainstream.
Who could ever give me a decent

1195
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:45,760
answer on that at all?
That's that's pretty much.

1196
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:48,200
I never thought about it.
I guess they'll do it together.

1197
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,640
Where you just said, I guess,
you know, you just said, I

1198
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:53,720
speculate that means I don't
know.

1199
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:56,720
The early brother knew and the
early brother taught these

1200
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,440
things.
They had doctrines that were way

1201
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:02,800
deeper on all of these issues
with a lot more explanations.

1202
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:06,080
So who understood it better?
What we do because we know what

1203
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:08,680
we don't know.
That's possible.

1204
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,160
We can be Socratic about it.
But it doesn't ring true.

1205
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:16,359
When I meet brethren who are
fundamentalists who've studied

1206
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:19,359
the gospel as Joseph taught it,
as Brigham taught it, as John

1207
01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:24,000
Taylor taught it, they've got a
vast array of material way

1208
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:28,920
beyond anything in the church.
And I think even whenever I was

1209
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:36,279
writing DNC 76 and DNC Annotated
76, man, I was, I was loving it.

1210
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:39,479
I learned so much writing that,
I mean, it's kind of more edited

1211
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:40,600
than writing.
But you know what I mean?

1212
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,640
Yeah, I was constantly finding
these quotes from the early

1213
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,399
brotherhood and teaching stuff,
and I was like, sweet.

1214
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,319
I've been teaching that to my
family for 30 years or 20 years

1215
01:08:50,319 --> 01:08:51,760
or whatever.
I'm not quite that old, but

1216
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:55,680
teaching it for 20 years, I
believed it for 30 years.

1217
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:58,000
I never found a quote.
And here's a quote where

1218
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,840
somebody's teaching that thing,
you know, and it's happened to

1219
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,960
me over and over and over again.
Just things the spirit teaches.

1220
01:09:04,359 --> 01:09:06,000
Here's some of the early breadth
of teaching it.

1221
01:09:06,319 --> 01:09:12,520
But go through the last 6080
years of conference talks, You

1222
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:16,160
don't learn any of those things.
Not even remotely close.

1223
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:21,439
And and so to me, if I'm looking
and saying, OK, at the end of

1224
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:25,319
the day I can argue that all
these changes are template

1225
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:26,720
changes, they don't really
matter.

1226
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:28,600
That's what most mainstreamers
believe.

1227
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:32,160
But if I'm going to take that
position, I've got 2 problems.

1228
01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:34,720
One is mainstream churches
admitted they got rid of the

1229
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:40,439
second down it or they changed
it and it doesn't matter to me.

1230
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:42,080
You can't just get rid of an
ordinance.

1231
01:09:42,399 --> 01:09:44,240
They got rid of revamped
baptisms.

1232
01:09:44,399 --> 01:09:48,920
They got rid of baptisms for
health, which is not self ethic.

1233
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:50,040
So you can say that doesn't
matter.

1234
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:52,920
They got rid of mother's
blessings.

1235
01:09:53,359 --> 01:09:56,400
You know, they they're they're
dumping stuff and they're

1236
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:59,400
losing, you know, priesthood
according to Joseph.

1237
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:04,320
And if that was true, if that
perspective was true, I would

1238
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:06,200
expect them to lose light
knowledge.

1239
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:09,920
And that's all I see.
I don't see them.

1240
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:16,600
They've produced nothing new
that didn't discount something

1241
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:21,560
earlier for for any revelation
or announcement that they've

1242
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,120
made.
Nothing has added something that

1243
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,320
wasn't there before.
They've only taken away what was

1244
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,720
there before, and that's the
actions of God to the Israelite.

1245
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:35,480
You didn't believe it takes them
away, Alma 12-9 to 12, says if

1246
01:10:35,480 --> 01:10:36,920
you don't believe, I'm going to
take it away.

1247
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:38,880
If you believe, I'm going to
give you more.

1248
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:44,480
That's what I'm saying.
If if we're actually progressing

1249
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:48,520
and getting more light knowledge
by rejecting the early brethren,

1250
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:52,240
then I then where's the more,
where's the better understanding

1251
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:56,080
and it's not there.
I mean changes from from

1252
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:01,080
administration to administration
and when we do have requests for

1253
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:05,200
ordinance changes, why are those
changes coming?

1254
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:07,520
We don't like the government.
Why?

1255
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,040
Well, you're making us work
24/7, which frankly, I don't

1256
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:13,200
think is original either.
But you're making this morning

1257
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:15,360
24/7 and we want to look like
the Gentiles.

1258
01:11:16,480 --> 01:11:19,400
So they say no, we can't change
the ordinances.

1259
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:20,800
Well, maybe you already changed
that.

1260
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:26,400
But at any rate, they're
complaining about God's gift to

1261
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:28,080
them.
That's how you're going to get

1262
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:31,680
more light knowledge.
You know what He's?

1263
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:33,800
Already giving you?
Yeah.

1264
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:40,080
In 2005, I received a letter as
counsel for AUB saying that

1265
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:43,040
these these people were going to
sue AUB and they were going to

1266
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:48,320
sue the church because there was
nudity in the endowment in the

1267
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:52,160
initiatory.
And I looked at this and I and

1268
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:53,880
my my clients said what are we
going to do this.

1269
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:57,680
Well this is easy.
This is looks pretty pretty

1270
01:11:57,680 --> 01:11:59,880
stupid lawsuit by some
snowflake.

1271
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:05,760
You know if if people are upset
about this, then you just

1272
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:07,720
disclose to them beforehand and
you're good.

1273
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:11,600
Make sure a woman discloses it
to the girls and a man discloses

1274
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:15,320
it to the boys and get it
writing, get it done before they

1275
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:18,600
go there So they can't say they
were pressured and it's good.

1276
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:21,000
Who's going to sue you for a
stupid lawsuit anyways?

1277
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:25,480
But you know what I mean it's
dumb And and they said, well

1278
01:12:25,480 --> 01:12:27,120
what do you think the church is
going to do?

1279
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:31,400
And and I said, well this isn't
this isn't my genius that came

1280
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:34,200
up with a solution here.
This isn't any competent

1281
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:38,200
attorney would tell you that you
just get a disclaimer first you

1282
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,720
have them sign a a waiver of and
and knowledge and understanding

1283
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:44,280
what they're doing and then they
can't later claim you humiliated

1284
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:46,320
me.
I didn't know because they were

1285
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:50,280
told beforehand this is this is
like first grade law school.

1286
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:52,680
I mean you know this is the
basic of the basics.

1287
01:12:53,440 --> 01:12:57,280
And then a couple months later,
I'm hearing that the church is

1288
01:12:57,280 --> 01:12:58,840
changing the now to get rid of
the nudity.

1289
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:02,120
And they changed the ordinance
so that it's all symbolic.

1290
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:05,560
And, you know, there's no
longer, this is like way

1291
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:10,320
shorter.
So you got somebody complaining

1292
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:12,520
about the ordinance and that's
why you're gonna change.

1293
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:14,720
I don't like the preacher there
offends the Christians.

1294
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:18,600
So we take that away.
Is that how you gain more light

1295
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:21,400
knowledge with God by
complaining about what he's

1296
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:24,720
given you?
No, it just doesn't.

1297
01:13:25,440 --> 01:13:28,480
It doesn't sit right, you know,
it doesn't feel right.

1298
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:31,720
You know when I get a lot more
light knowledge is when I'm in

1299
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:34,400
this stage and say, God, thank
you so much for teaching me

1300
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:37,240
this.
I am so grateful for all of this

1301
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:40,720
light knowledge and it's really
changed my life and it's made me

1302
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:43,520
a better person.
And maybe I'm still a Sinner,

1303
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:46,640
maybe I'm still a bad guy.
But all this gospel light

1304
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,360
knowledge you've given me has
made me a better person.

1305
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:53,400
It's made me a better dad, it's
made me a better husband and but

1306
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:57,560
right now I need more something.
I can't figure out how to

1307
01:13:57,560 --> 01:13:59,760
overcome this problem.
Can you teach me something?

1308
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:02,000
That's when you get light
knowledge.

1309
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:05,160
But if you go to God and you're
like, you know what?

1310
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:06,320
You told me this and that didn't
work.

1311
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:07,480
You told me this and that
doesn't work.

1312
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:09,440
And I'm frankly sick and tired
of this life.

1313
01:14:09,440 --> 01:14:11,080
It sucks.
And I've got all these problems.

1314
01:14:11,440 --> 01:14:14,000
And can you just tell me how to
fix it?

1315
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:19,960
You know, when I do that and you
know, it's some level, we all

1316
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:23,000
gripe and complain.
You know, I don't get an answer,

1317
01:14:23,480 --> 01:14:25,680
right?
Maybe you do, but I don't.

1318
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:29,800
I get it Whenever I'm saying I'm
and I'm grateful for what I've

1319
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:30,640
got.
Please give me more.

1320
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:34,720
That's when you get more.
And and that's same thing with

1321
01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:37,520
Joseph Joseph saying I'm reading
the scriptures and it seemed to

1322
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:39,160
me that there must be something
here.

1323
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:41,840
And so I'm praying and asking
tell me more.

1324
01:14:42,440 --> 01:14:44,840
And that's what God says.
Oh you're grateful for what I

1325
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:46,600
gave you.
I'll give you more.

1326
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,160
Just like any father your kid
comes and says Mom made the

1327
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:51,840
stinky breakfast and I don't
like it.

1328
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,080
Will you give me something like.
No.

1329
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:58,160
You know, if I made the Super
yummy breakfast, can I have some

1330
01:14:58,160 --> 01:14:59,640
yogurt too?
Sure, right?

1331
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:04,160
No, it's just a gospel
principle.

1332
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:07,560
And so looking for all these
things, that's what I would

1333
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:10,040
expect.
So now is the big conundrum.

1334
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:16,080
I mentioned earlier that we have
quotes saying Kazak priesthood,

1335
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:19,360
ironic, Christian state forever
on the on the earth.

1336
01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:22,200
All right, so I had a friend, I
was just chatting with him and

1337
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:25,800
and my understanding was that
his group of people had the 2nd

1338
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,480
anointing.
And so in passing, talking about

1339
01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:32,800
some priesthood issues, I said,
well, you know, we've got it at

1340
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,640
least a really solid quote that
the fullness of the priests will

1341
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:39,360
never be taken from the earth.
And you know, as I was read

1342
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:41,920
writing Joe Smith doctrines and
Insights, Last charge of

1343
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:44,520
Transfiguration, I found
probably, you know, several of

1344
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:46,400
these, but at least one that was
super clear.

1345
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:50,560
And he said, I don't know what
you're talking about and we

1346
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:54,720
don't have second anointing and
I'd love to see the quote.

1347
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:59,280
So I thought, all right, shoot,
that this is something that I

1348
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:03,360
was planning on in in my second,
third volume on teachings of the

1349
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:08,120
Joseph that Arnon, the THPTPJSI
was going to include all these

1350
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:12,040
quotes because they're journals
or reminiscences talking about

1351
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:13,880
the the priesthood not being
taken from the earth.

1352
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:18,600
But now I'm thinking, you know,
I sorry.

1353
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:22,720
So they were just going to be,
you know, randomly inter

1354
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,160
dispersed.
But I was figuring I would in

1355
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:29,400
the index make a special entry
and collect all of them and make

1356
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:31,840
sure to point out where they
were and put it all together.

1357
01:16:32,440 --> 01:16:33,800
So I'm going to do this work
sometime right?

1358
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:35,360
Anyway, I'll just do it for this
new friend.

1359
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:38,080
So I started compiling all the
stuff.

1360
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:39,920
This is actually why I ended up
writing the book.

1361
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:46,000
I I compile all that stuff
together and I I sent it to him

1362
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:47,600
and I was like, I've got more
than that.

1363
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:51,080
I know I've got more than that.
And so I looked deeper, found a

1364
01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:53,760
bunch more, put them all
together and I had all these

1365
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:59,960
cross references and notes and
and thoughts going through my

1366
01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:02,400
head about this.
And then I realized I've pretty

1367
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:04,040
much written the book.
I just need to stitch it

1368
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:07,840
together now.
So that's kind of how it how it

1369
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:11,760
works.
But the whole key that that that

1370
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:15,400
got me pondering about this and
I never, I never addressed this

1371
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:19,240
clearly in the book because I'm
I'm not about telling people

1372
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:22,880
what to do with their lives or
shoving stuff down their throats

1373
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:26,560
and just present stuff.
You can think about it make of

1374
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:30,120
it what you want.
But my question mark here was

1375
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:33,640
Joseph says if you change the
ordinances, change the

1376
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:37,480
priesthood, which means if you
change the ordinances you lose

1377
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:39,160
priesthood.
Right.

1378
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:42,880
But then he also says this.
The fullness of priesthood will

1379
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:48,240
never be taken from the earth.
So somebody's got it.

1380
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:50,600
It's out there.
Maybe some of somebody's got it

1381
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:55,320
for my rubbing shoulders with
people and guesstimating, I

1382
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:57,520
guess there's less than three
dozen guys on the planet have

1383
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:03,360
it, but they're out there.
And you can receive those

1384
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:05,560
blessings if you really want
them, if you're looking for

1385
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:07,880
them, if you're trying to find
them, if you're whatever.

1386
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:13,640
But when you find him, you then
you got to discern, right.

1387
01:18:14,480 --> 01:18:17,840
Well, I, you know, like I, I
anecdotally a guy who says,

1388
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:21,360
well, you know, I give second
anointings while smoking a

1389
01:18:21,360 --> 01:18:24,120
cigarette to kind of put make a
point, you know, like, well, I

1390
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:26,800
don't know if I really receive a
second anointing from guys

1391
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,320
smoking cigarettes.
Something about that feels

1392
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:31,000
wrong, you know.
Right.

1393
01:18:32,480 --> 01:18:36,880
And I I I get what he's trying
to teach and there's maybe some

1394
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,880
truth there but it doesn't ring
true to me that that's the

1395
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:41,360
proper way to receive your
second.

1396
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:46,720
So you know, so you still you
have to exercise discernment.

1397
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:48,760
You have to think about it and
at the end of the day you got to

1398
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:54,200
look and say who hasn't changed
the ordinances and and maybe

1399
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,600
then you have to say well who's
changed them the least who's

1400
01:18:56,840 --> 01:19:00,880
who's kept the template at
least, you know and and go

1401
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:06,720
through that piece of things and
the search is is kind of tricky.

1402
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:11,240
And I used to see it a lot more
black and white and it was a

1403
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:15,280
little bit more clear to me
because you know, if immersion

1404
01:19:15,440 --> 01:19:17,800
is a change, then Dang it,
change in the wording and

1405
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:21,920
sacraments change, Right, Right.
So now I have to look at a

1406
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:26,040
little bit more carefully and
nuanced, but still at the end of

1407
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:28,200
the day I I come to the same
conclusion.

1408
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:31,080
I I can't conclude that the
people who have changed the

1409
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:33,760
ordinances the most are the ones
with the most priesthood.

1410
01:19:35,440 --> 01:19:40,160
Unless they're growing and
giving more light knowledge and

1411
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:45,360
taking away pieces that really
don't matter much or are are

1412
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:47,720
inconsequential, but instead
they're taking out massive

1413
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:52,080
pieces of stuff that are hugely
important, including covenants.

1414
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:58,320
Now you know, and those people
as a whole don't understand the

1415
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:00,360
gospel better than the people of
Joseph's day.

1416
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:04,320
Sorry, they they don't.
Any anybody who bothers to to

1417
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:08,000
spend some time reading on these
topics will know that.

1418
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:12,240
And and frankly, I mean even if
you read DNC 76 annotated, which

1419
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:14,880
isn't my opinions and thoughts
by the way for anybody who

1420
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:18,000
doesn't know, it's just those
are the early brethren teaching

1421
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:22,160
cross references to the
scriptures and interpreting

1422
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:24,040
them.
So early Brethren interpreting.

1423
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:27,280
Not me.
Yeah they give a whole boatload

1424
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:31,240
more information than I've ever
heard in general conference like

1425
01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:34,960
100 times.
It's amazing how much more they

1426
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:39,160
offered.
So so anyway you just you have

1427
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:42,720
to look at all of those details
with a little bit more nuance

1428
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:46,960
than before.
But you know, I mean it's it's a

1429
01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:50,440
it's a challenging teaching.
It's it's challenging on

1430
01:20:50,440 --> 01:20:55,400
multiple levels and and and even
like in my position, I'm saying

1431
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:57,280
well Joseph restored the
baptism.

1432
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:03,640
But you know it is it possible
that Joseph didn't restore part

1433
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:06,800
of that ordinance the way it was
supposed to be done because he

1434
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,120
grew up in a Victorian age where
people couldn't accept it and

1435
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:11,600
the Church never would have
started, never would have ticked

1436
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:16,160
off the ground maybe, you know.
Right.

1437
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:19,120
So it brings up a lot of
questions in my mind now that

1438
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:21,760
that weren't there 20 years ago
when I was first learning these

1439
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:23,400
things and 1st starting to study
them.

1440
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,760
So if if I might be a so this
bowl here and correct me if I'm

1441
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:35,360
wrong, I think at least for me
when I look back at stuff I tend

1442
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:40,840
to look at kind of I I look at
it with this idea of the waters

1443
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:45,560
are purest at their source right
And and certainly from a latter.

1444
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:49,280
Day tradition.
Those waters start with with

1445
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:52,120
Joseph Smith and then trickle
down right.

1446
01:21:53,240 --> 01:22:01,040
Yeah, In your opinion, what's
that?

1447
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:05,280
I said I view it the exact same
way.

1448
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:09,040
OK, I I think the the fountain
is purest to the the good

1449
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:11,040
source.
OK.

1450
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:14,320
All right.
So if if that's the case, then

1451
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:19,880
is is the safest assumption as
as we analyze these changes is

1452
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:23,680
to see how they square.
With what was originally

1453
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:28,400
revealed and then in the absence
of when they're originally

1454
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:32,280
revealed, right, because we
don't have a ton like on the

1455
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:37,680
endowment on on what Joseph was
doing exactly with those other

1456
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:39,880
brethren.
And if I'm not mistaken, the

1457
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:41,920
ordinance really wasn't written
down.

1458
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:46,640
It was kind of given to men to
memorize certain parts of it and

1459
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:48,760
then later was compiled.
Is that correct?

1460
01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:53,400
I don't think we really know
that.

1461
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:58,720
I think we we we guessed that.
I would love to know the answer,

1462
01:22:58,960 --> 01:23:05,920
but from the records we've got,
I I don't see any evidence that

1463
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:09,040
we've got a written record of
what Joseph did.

1464
01:23:09,440 --> 01:23:14,320
But at the same time, Joseph was
really meticulous about record

1465
01:23:14,320 --> 01:23:18,160
keeping on multiple, multiple
levels.

1466
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:20,760
I have a hard time thinking that
he said.

1467
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:23,800
Brigham we don't have this quite
right, but you know we figured

1468
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:29,360
out and and you'll you'll get it
together and add 3 hours worth

1469
01:23:29,440 --> 01:23:34,080
of teachings, right?
You know, I I just it's possible

1470
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:37,800
but on a theoretical basis I
don't see I don't see.

1471
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:41,760
Joseph didn't wasn't like that.
No, I don't see him being like

1472
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:43,360
that.
He took such good records.

1473
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:47,160
It was super important, he says
dozens of times in the last

1474
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:50,320
charge.
I'm just completely crawling out

1475
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:51,720
of my skin.
I'm really stressed.

1476
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:55,120
I've got to teach you guys all
these things you know and and

1477
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:57,480
and he had meetings with the 12
where he's teaching them all

1478
01:23:57,480 --> 01:23:59,120
these things about the fullness
of the priesthood.

1479
01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:02,840
So it's possible he delineated
all those things there but

1480
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:06,560
didn't write them down but but
they were keeping notes and he

1481
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:09,880
maybe instructed them to or
something but to have none at

1482
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:12,600
all.
Just it doesn't square with what

1483
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:14,160
I what we know about Joseph to
me.

1484
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:18,720
Yeah, yeah, the.
The other thing that that I tend

1485
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:22,920
to look at and again I'm willing
to be wrong on on on this right.

1486
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:28,520
I tend to make Joseph kind of
the ultimate authority here when

1487
01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:31,400
it talks about this.
So while we certainly can look

1488
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:34,200
at things like apocryphal
records and those sorts of

1489
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:39,000
things and say, OK, so we have
record and and I want to say

1490
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:43,160
that that I know that there I
did have a friend who converted

1491
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:45,840
to Judaism.
And one of the things was a

1492
01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:51,320
ritualistic bath in in living
waters so to speak so not in a

1493
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:56,800
font where where you would bathe
essentially naked to to enter

1494
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:03,480
enter that if if that's and
Muslims do that as.

1495
01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:10,960
Well, right, right.
However, who's to say that

1496
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:13,440
getting naked wasn't to change
as well?

1497
01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:18,200
Right.
Did it start with having clothes

1498
01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:23,520
on and then and then later was
changed to no, we should really

1499
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:27,640
do this without clothes on.
And at some point, Drew, don't

1500
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:30,920
you have to be able to draw a
hard line somewhere and say, OK,

1501
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:35,120
this is what I'm going to to
hedge to, so to speak, right.

1502
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:38,280
And so when I think of
restoration, I think of a a

1503
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:44,320
bringing forward what was lost.
And that's why I tend to look at

1504
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:47,200
Joseph Smith and say, OK, I'm
going to stop and end it here,

1505
01:25:47,200 --> 01:25:49,960
right.
This is, this is kind of my guy.

1506
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:59,000
But and and I think you kind of
alluded to it before, but and I

1507
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:02,680
want to point this out that I
don't see a lot of places where

1508
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:04,800
the Lord takes away a whole
bunch, right.

1509
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:08,960
We have, we have.
Exodus Where?

1510
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:11,720
Where you know Moses comes down
and it was like like you were

1511
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:15,240
saying we're going to get, you
know, not give you the higher

1512
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:18,240
law but the lower law.
So I tend to look at revelation

1513
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:21,080
as being.
And again correct me if I'm

1514
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:22,560
wrong here.
I'm only be wrong on this

1515
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:27,680
because Joseph does say that
we've we believe in everything

1516
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:31,320
the Lord has revealed and things
He has yet to reveal in the

1517
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:34,000
articles of faith.
I'm butchering that, right?

1518
01:26:34,360 --> 01:26:38,480
Yeah.
So I do think that there can be

1519
01:26:38,480 --> 01:26:41,760
further revelation, but I feel
like that revelation has to add

1520
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:45,680
to what we have and not take
away, yes?

1521
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:50,080
And and that's where I kind of
fall on this and and the other

1522
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:53,400
thing would be is does it square
with what's already been

1523
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:56,680
revealed as well, right.
I don't think a revelation that

1524
01:26:56,680 --> 01:27:01,400
completely overturns something
Joseph did is.

1525
01:27:02,960 --> 01:27:06,040
Is within that pale of orthodoxy
and that's where I tend to to

1526
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:10,680
run into issues is I I think, I
think there is more revelation

1527
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:14,360
out there to be had, but it has
to square with what's already

1528
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:17,520
been revealed.
They can't conflict necessarily,

1529
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:24,200
right?
I and I agree in theory.

1530
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:32,400
However, anytime we've had a
clarification of doctrine, it's

1531
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:35,600
also seemed contrary to things
that were there before.

1532
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:40,280
Let me give you an example.
When DNC 76 was introduced to

1533
01:27:40,280 --> 01:27:44,160
the Saints, a lot of them were
really upset about it because

1534
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:47,080
they said we've been taught in
the scriptures say you either go

1535
01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:52,600
to heaven or you go to hell.
And now you're telling us that

1536
01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:55,760
these guys that were going to go
to hell might go to Celestial

1537
01:27:55,760 --> 01:27:58,080
Kingdom or they might go
terrestrial or they might go

1538
01:27:58,080 --> 01:28:02,960
Celestial, but all these places
are good places.

1539
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:07,440
You know, this isn't like hell
as we know it and just said,

1540
01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:11,360
well, hell is actually a
temporary place except for for

1541
01:28:11,360 --> 01:28:14,960
the sons of perdition.
And so most people are never

1542
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:16,440
really going to stay in hell
anyways.

1543
01:28:17,320 --> 01:28:23,320
And in DNC 19, we have the Lord
clarifying and saying, well, by

1544
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:25,480
eternal and everlasting
punishment, I didn't mean that

1545
01:28:25,480 --> 01:28:28,480
they would last forever.
I meant it was eternal in

1546
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:33,320
nature, not in duration.
That felt like a fundamental

1547
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:35,600
reversal of 2000 years of
Christian history.

1548
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:43,440
So while I agree with you, it
doesn't when when you get to

1549
01:28:43,440 --> 01:28:47,560
specific details of doctrines,
it really does look contrary a

1550
01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:52,560
lot of times when when Joseph is
revealing something that's lost

1551
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:57,200
and being restored.
And because of that, I think

1552
01:28:57,200 --> 01:29:02,080
when you see, you know, Brigham
says he didn't teach anything,

1553
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:05,680
but Joseph taught.
So I take him at his word for

1554
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:08,360
the most part, with some similar
nuanced challenges there.

1555
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:13,200
If he's revealing something that
is a little bit further with

1556
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:15,920
what Joseph taught, but he just
had a better understanding of

1557
01:29:16,480 --> 01:29:20,520
those details, might also look a
little bit off compared to what

1558
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:25,000
we understood, you know, how we
interpreted revelation or

1559
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:29,280
scriptures before DNC 19, Verse
seven is one of my favorite

1560
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:31,600
scriptures for this reason.
This is the one I was just

1561
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:33,800
talking about everlasting
punishment, where he talks about

1562
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:35,960
that and says that's not what I
meant.

1563
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:41,200
But then he says some scriptures
are more express than others,

1564
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:43,960
meaning they're more clear,
they're more detailed.

1565
01:29:44,480 --> 01:29:47,000
Sometimes the prophets just kind
of mouthed off something.

1566
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:49,840
They didn't say it very well and
it looks like they were saying

1567
01:29:49,840 --> 01:29:51,680
one thing, but it wasn't really
clear.

1568
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:54,320
But this scripture is more clear
than others.

1569
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:56,720
And so that's the one you hold
on to for this particular

1570
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:59,640
teaching at at any rate.
So.

1571
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:03,560
So I agree very much you go to
the source, the closer the

1572
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:07,920
fountain the better and and it
should square with what's been

1573
01:30:07,920 --> 01:30:12,800
revealed before.
But it squares if we have a an

1574
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:16,080
open mind and we're really
careful about how we're reading

1575
01:30:16,080 --> 01:30:22,080
and interpreting things, because
we all of us have habits and

1576
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:24,240
traditions of how we interpret
things.

1577
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:28,160
And a lot of times they're bad.
They're they're not well thought

1578
01:30:28,160 --> 01:30:32,240
through and they're problematic,
but we think we really know it

1579
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:35,800
really well, you know?
I should have been more clear

1580
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:39,400
there, what I was saying in
terms of, oh, I don't think so.

1581
01:30:42,120 --> 01:30:46,480
Just the Restoration era, right?
So the teachings of Joseph,

1582
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:49,080
right?
And from a Mormon context, I

1583
01:30:49,080 --> 01:30:51,920
would expect.
To see some things that fly in

1584
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:55,600
the face of quote traditional
Christianity because you did

1585
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:59,080
have Joseph coming and restoring
the God, you know the the

1586
01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:03,320
religion of Jesus.
And so I would expect to see

1587
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:07,240
some conflicts there.
But with within the Restoration

1588
01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:10,040
going forward from Joseph Smith,
I tend to look at it and say,

1589
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:15,400
OK, any new revelation that that
is is given, I think has to

1590
01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:19,160
square somewhat, not somewhat
pretty well with what Joseph

1591
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:22,680
talked.
So if, if, yeah, if.

1592
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:28,720
I wasn't clear that I wanted to
make sure I was when Well I I

1593
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:35,640
think I think it's just common a
common issue that that comes up

1594
01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:39,200
a lot and and even with your
clarification I again, I agree.

1595
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:41,760
But we we do have a talk of
Joseph saying you know people

1596
01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:43,600
say I have poor wives but I I'm
looking in the audience.

1597
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:46,280
I can only see one.
He had seven in the audience at

1598
01:31:46,280 --> 01:31:49,640
the time at least.
And I think he had like 38 wives

1599
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:54,600
at that time that he said that.
You know so we've when we're

1600
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:59,240
looking at history, we do have
some challenges of what Joseph

1601
01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:02,560
taught publicly versus privately
because we do have conflict.

1602
01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:09,440
I believe it was Benjamin F
Johnson, could have been Clayton

1603
01:32:09,480 --> 01:32:13,120
but at one point they he said,
Joseph, if I look for a

1604
01:32:13,120 --> 01:32:15,320
marriage, I get caught.
What's going to happen?

1605
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:18,040
He says, well I'll give you a
severe public chastisement and

1606
01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:21,080
when the water settles down
I'll, you know, we'll reinstate

1607
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:28,160
you in good standing, you know.
So even then we've we've got to

1608
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:32,160
be pretty well read in in each
of the doctrines to to make sure

1609
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:36,160
that it's really squaring
because we we do have challenges

1610
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:38,400
like that.
And further, we've got words

1611
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:41,200
like intelligence and spirit
that were used interchangeably

1612
01:32:41,200 --> 01:32:45,440
and incorrectly multiple times
by Joseph as he was learning and

1613
01:32:45,440 --> 01:32:49,560
understanding that principle.
And the term salvation was used

1614
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:52,520
to mean both exaltation and
salvation in celestial Kingdom

1615
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:56,560
and salvation in the telestial
or terrestrial kingdoms, which

1616
01:32:56,560 --> 01:33:00,120
didn't mean in the passage.
It's not always clear, but we

1617
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:02,120
always assume it means celestial
Kingdom.

1618
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:06,960
But maybe not So you know when
Christians say if you believe

1619
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:10,560
you will be saved, yeah to
Lestre Kingdom at least

1620
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:14,520
Terrestrial Kingdom may be next.
It doesn't say celestial

1621
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:16,560
Kingdom, but they don't have
that perspective so they can't

1622
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:18,880
read it that way.
But that's how the term was used

1623
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:24,760
by Joseph but not consistently
so even then I, you know, again

1624
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:26,320
I'm, I'm not disagreeing with
you at all.

1625
01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:29,000
I totally agree with you.
It's just one of those things

1626
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:30,200
that I've thought about over
time.

1627
01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:32,280
I'm like Dang, it's still it's
still a challenge.

1628
01:33:32,480 --> 01:33:35,120
You know there's there's very
little black and white and

1629
01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:39,400
restored gospel, right?
It it's when you get to the

1630
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:42,760
details, I should say, obviously
there's strong black and white

1631
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:46,720
atonement's real praised.
It's important you know that

1632
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:49,560
when you start nailing down
these little details, there's so

1633
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:52,560
many rabbit holes to go down.
Yeah.

1634
01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:57,000
And and one of the things I
learned early on when I became a

1635
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:04,720
fundamentalist was you.
You almost have to, for your own

1636
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:07,960
sanity at some point, hedge
somewhere.

1637
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:09,120
Right.
Hedge on.

1638
01:34:09,440 --> 01:34:11,360
You know, for me, it was Joseph
Smith, right?

1639
01:34:11,360 --> 01:34:15,160
I'm gonna, I'm gonna hedge there
because if you don't, you will

1640
01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:20,040
start.
It's it's like the guy who finds

1641
01:34:20,040 --> 01:34:23,920
one conspiracy is true and then
he doesn't trust anything ever

1642
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:25,280
again.
Right.

1643
01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:28,040
And then it's, you know, going
down every ground.

1644
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:33,480
Hole yeah you go from from holy
crap maybe there was a second

1645
01:34:33,480 --> 01:34:36,400
shooter in the Kennedy
assassination to now the earth

1646
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:40,680
is flat right and and so for
your own sanity you almost have

1647
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:45,200
to to peg to somebody and I
always felt like Joseph Smith

1648
01:34:45,240 --> 01:34:49,560
was the strongest stake we had
to or the strongest anchor to to

1649
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:52,800
put to.
For someone who's getting into

1650
01:34:52,840 --> 01:34:55,840
this right, who?
Who's discovering these changes,

1651
01:34:56,280 --> 01:34:59,520
what kind of sources would you
direct them to when it comes to

1652
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:03,320
changes in ordinances and
changes in priesthood 'cause

1653
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:05,280
that's really what this is
about, right?

1654
01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:08,840
Like don't get me wrong, I love
the doctrine, the Adam God

1655
01:35:08,840 --> 01:35:11,680
doctrine.
I feel it puts me in proximity

1656
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:13,520
to deity.
I love it about that.

1657
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:16,320
I love the principle of plural
marriage.

1658
01:35:16,320 --> 01:35:19,080
I feel like that's a godly
principle that has certainly

1659
01:35:19,080 --> 01:35:22,880
helped me become a better man.
But when you whittle it all

1660
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:26,400
down, it really does kind of
start with the ordinances in the

1661
01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:30,280
priesthood.
So you you have your book, which

1662
01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:32,680
I can't recommend enough.
Anything you write I can't

1663
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:36,960
recommend highly enough.
But when it comes to to other

1664
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:39,720
source material, where?
Where do you normally direct

1665
01:35:39,720 --> 01:35:42,520
people to go when they want to
start doing their own research?

1666
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:50,080
Werger's mystery of godliness is
#1.

1667
01:35:51,080 --> 01:35:55,320
I think he did a fabulous job.
I haven't read that frankly, in

1668
01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:59,040
probably 20 years or so.
I refer to it once in a while

1669
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:02,800
and look things up.
But I thought he did a really

1670
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:08,080
good job and and objectively
just saying it was changed.

1671
01:36:08,480 --> 01:36:12,360
So that's that's to me, that's
the number one place #2 is Debre

1672
01:36:12,440 --> 01:36:15,440
Anderson's The Development of
LDS Temple Worship.

1673
01:36:16,320 --> 01:36:19,200
That's the third book in a
series that starts with just

1674
01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:22,120
Smith's Cormac anointed and then
the endowment companies and then

1675
01:36:22,120 --> 01:36:27,280
the earliest history of Elias
temple worship.

1676
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:32,480
Sorry Glitch there.
But that's that's both of those

1677
01:36:32,480 --> 01:36:34,800
are indispensable.
The latter of course is only

1678
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:40,880
temple stuff.
So you know that's that's maybe

1679
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:43,440
a limitation there.
Mysteries of Godliness really

1680
01:36:43,440 --> 01:36:48,560
focuses on temple stuff too and
and you know I I haven't read

1681
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:51,520
that in in so long.
I don't remember the tone of of

1682
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:54,960
the book if it's kind of anti
brethren if it's objective but I

1683
01:36:54,960 --> 01:36:58,040
think it's either very
deferential toward the brethren

1684
01:36:58,040 --> 01:37:01,360
or fairly objective or I would
wouldn't remember it so highly

1685
01:37:02,400 --> 01:37:04,840
because I I tend to get offended
when people are ripping on the

1686
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:09,160
puzzle and and then the third
source is not published but it's

1687
01:37:09,160 --> 01:37:17,240
the Saint George temple minutes.
I don't I mean people I know I

1688
01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:21,360
just say e-mail me I'm not
begging for 100 emails right now

1689
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:25,840
but I just tell them e-mail me
I'll get you a copy I don't

1690
01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:29,120
remember where I got mine.
I've seen it from time to time

1691
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:32,800
when sharing sources with other
scholars I've, you know, they'll

1692
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:34,920
they'll send me a new copy with
new formatting.

1693
01:37:34,920 --> 01:37:41,080
But it's the same stuff.
It's it's it could be a little

1694
01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:43,760
bit dry.
It's letters from somebody to

1695
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:46,760
somebody else in the, you know,
people saying today we had a

1696
01:37:46,760 --> 01:37:48,480
temple meeting and this is what
we discussed.

1697
01:37:48,480 --> 01:37:51,720
And later on it says somebody
asked whether or not baby needs

1698
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:54,400
to be endowed.
They died before they were eight

1699
01:37:54,400 --> 01:37:58,440
and one says yes, later they say
no later, say yes again, you

1700
01:37:58,440 --> 01:38:02,080
know, things like this.
But I think that was very

1701
01:38:02,080 --> 01:38:04,520
telling.
One of the most interesting

1702
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:09,120
details in that book that I
recall was somebody was asking

1703
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:14,400
how much do we wear the garment.
And he said, well, we wear the

1704
01:38:14,400 --> 01:38:16,520
garment when we want to receive
revelation.

1705
01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:20,240
So wouldn't you want to be ready
to receive revelation at any

1706
01:38:20,240 --> 01:38:22,600
moment of the day?
So you should wear it 24/7.

1707
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:26,280
And personally, I think that's
where the innovation came from,

1708
01:38:26,280 --> 01:38:30,280
that they were garment 24/7.
I don't think they're Joseph.

1709
01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:33,360
Joseph never taught that.
He taught them not to wear it

1710
01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:36,560
when they were in danger for
wearing it, which you could say

1711
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:38,560
is an anomaly.
Fair enough.

1712
01:38:39,440 --> 01:38:42,360
But he also didn't wear it when
he was going to martyrdom,

1713
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:45,520
knowing he was going to be
martyred again.

1714
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:49,440
You could say it's an anomaly.
But when Benjamin S Johnson in

1715
01:38:49,440 --> 01:38:54,560
1904 writes to things George S
Gibson the the First Presidency,

1716
01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:57,440
they said, was Joseph wearing
the garment at this time.

1717
01:38:57,440 --> 01:39:00,200
This time in his response wasn't
well.

1718
01:39:00,200 --> 01:39:02,160
There was this anomalous
situation or there was an

1719
01:39:02,160 --> 01:39:06,000
exception to the rule, he says.
Have you ever been in Nagavu in

1720
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:11,080
the middle of the summer you
know are you kidding me?

1721
01:39:11,320 --> 01:39:14,880
What idiot is going to wear that
long sleeve long pant like thing

1722
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:17,320
in the middle of late July in
Nauvoo.

1723
01:39:17,680 --> 01:39:19,680
It's too hot.
You can't breathe.

1724
01:39:19,680 --> 01:39:23,440
You can't move in it.
You know that's kind of I'm I'm

1725
01:39:23,480 --> 01:39:26,200
adding to his words a little bit
but that's his point you know.

1726
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:30,640
So I absolutely think that's an
innovation and that's the thing

1727
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:33,560
you get in Saint George Temple
minutes is is it's it's an

1728
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:37,200
amazing source.
So many good things in there and

1729
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:40,280
but those are the three primary
sources.

1730
01:39:40,360 --> 01:39:42,880
I'm I'm sure there are articles
out there that are really good.

1731
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:45,920
I've seen some on different
topics that look really

1732
01:39:45,920 --> 01:39:48,920
interesting and skinned over
there and said wow that's that's

1733
01:39:48,920 --> 01:39:55,240
really cool.
But I, I, I kind of quit looking

1734
01:39:55,240 --> 01:40:00,280
at all of the actual changes
that were made when I when I

1735
01:40:00,280 --> 01:40:04,480
read Devry's book because it it
it it did it just it was super

1736
01:40:04,480 --> 01:40:06,800
depressing to me.
It made me just feel awful,

1737
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:11,560
right?
It woofer woofer, Woodruff makes

1738
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:16,440
abundantly clear, and I think
some of the other brothers were

1739
01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:21,400
similarly or equally clear.
These ordinances aren't just for

1740
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:24,560
this earth.
You don't go make another earth

1741
01:40:24,560 --> 01:40:28,560
and give different ordinances.
They taught all the gods through

1742
01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:31,240
all eternity use the same
ordinances.

1743
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:34,960
And you know, even if you're
looking at a template format as

1744
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:41,000
opposed to specifics, I I don't
think we've got any business

1745
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:45,640
changing those.
And and I I think especially at

1746
01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:49,600
this time of our dispensation,
even if somebody is inclined to

1747
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:53,640
want to change something that
maybe is OK to change, I I I

1748
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:56,520
won't do it anyways.
I read the sacrament word for

1749
01:40:56,520 --> 01:40:58,800
word every time I give it to my
family.

1750
01:40:59,640 --> 01:41:02,760
I know I don't have to.
I hate King James English.

1751
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:07,280
I think that's a destroyer of of
many of our understandings.

1752
01:41:09,160 --> 01:41:11,960
But I I use the King James
English just as it's found in

1753
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:14,320
DNC 20, even though I know
Brigham didn't do it.

1754
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:22,000
Because I I I just really want
to retain that kind of concept

1755
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:25,480
with my kids.
And I I think if we're going to

1756
01:41:25,480 --> 01:41:30,640
err, I'd rather err by being too
strict and insisting upon a

1757
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:34,160
detail that maybe wasn't
necessary rather than being the

1758
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:38,040
one necessary to say, Oh, well,
you know, Drew's family like

1759
01:41:38,040 --> 01:41:40,320
having a priest about here
because he started changing

1760
01:41:40,320 --> 01:41:44,400
crap, you know, put that on
somebody else's shoulders.

1761
01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:48,640
I don't want it on mine, you
know, at any rate.

1762
01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:51,520
So those are the resources.
I would, I would suggest people

1763
01:41:51,520 --> 01:41:55,200
read my book is just kind of
like what we discussed today to

1764
01:41:55,200 --> 01:41:57,680
say this is what Joseph taught
about it.

1765
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:03,360
This is what he said was OK and
maybe not OK and this is what's

1766
01:42:03,360 --> 01:42:07,480
unclear but the he also taught
don't change principles.

1767
01:42:07,480 --> 01:42:09,960
He also thought don't change
laws you know said don't change

1768
01:42:09,960 --> 01:42:12,760
the gospel at all.
They're all eternal but then we

1769
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:15,720
have pieces of them that aren't
eternal and that are changed.

1770
01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:21,720
So you know I I address issues
like that and and let me just

1771
01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:26,080
throw out 11 quick example of
that that I, I, I throw these

1772
01:42:26,080 --> 01:42:29,760
things out for people to think
about and say how do I reconcile

1773
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:32,280
that.
So we recognize Old Testament

1774
01:42:32,280 --> 01:42:33,800
laws were changed by Christ
right.

1775
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:36,400
He says.
So I've tried to not destroy

1776
01:42:36,400 --> 01:42:38,960
them, but to fulfill them.
And then he says, don't do this

1777
01:42:38,960 --> 01:42:40,240
anymore.
Do this instead.

1778
01:42:40,240 --> 01:42:41,920
Don't do this anymore.
Do this instead.

1779
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:45,200
Well, then we're in the temple
endowment.

1780
01:42:45,200 --> 01:42:48,480
We're told to obey laws as
contained in told testament.

1781
01:42:50,080 --> 01:42:55,200
Hello.
OK, so I'm supposed to if if I

1782
01:42:55,200 --> 01:42:58,040
if I'm in the army, then it's OK
for me to go kill somebody,

1783
01:42:58,040 --> 01:42:59,520
steal his wife and take her home
with me.

1784
01:42:59,960 --> 01:43:02,960
As long as I shave her head
cutter nails and make it put

1785
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:06,040
ashes on and and and they don't
touch it for 30 days, it's OK.

1786
01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:08,920
You know that's an Old Testament
law.

1787
01:43:08,920 --> 01:43:13,240
I'm supposed to follow that.
Still those changing laws are

1788
01:43:13,240 --> 01:43:15,080
part of the unchanging
ordinance.

1789
01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:17,960
So that could mean one of two
things.

1790
01:43:17,960 --> 01:43:21,240
One, it can mean you're expected
to figure it out and and know

1791
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:23,440
which ones are superseded and
which ones aren't.

1792
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:26,160
Or two, you're supposed to
follow it anyway.

1793
01:43:27,160 --> 01:43:29,480
So either way there's a big
challenge there.

1794
01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:33,280
But understanding that challenge
has me approach it differently,

1795
01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:34,400
right?
Right.

1796
01:43:37,280 --> 01:43:43,840
So when, when you put this book
out, what do you hope it does

1797
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:47,040
for people when they pick it up,
let's say the average

1798
01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:49,960
mainstreamer when they pick this
book up, what do you hope they

1799
01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:59,640
get out of it?
You know, usually this has been

1800
01:43:59,640 --> 01:44:02,560
a challenge for me.
Usually when I write a book, I'm

1801
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:06,120
like, this is what people are
going to learn from this.

1802
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:09,880
And this is what I, you know,
when I wrote Joseph Smith's

1803
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:13,640
Doctrine, Insights, last track,
Transfiguration, I thought this

1804
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:15,000
is what people are going to
learn from this.

1805
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:18,680
This wasn't an isolated meeting.
This was not a council of 50

1806
01:44:18,680 --> 01:44:21,680
charge.
This was given at least a dozen

1807
01:44:21,680 --> 01:44:24,960
times on from the hundreds and
hundreds of people in our

1808
01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:29,640
understanding that this is proof
of lebaroniteism is false.

1809
01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:32,080
Maybe there's something there.
I'm not discounting all their

1810
01:44:32,080 --> 01:44:34,520
claims, but that's not good
enough.

1811
01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:37,920
We've got too much information.
So that's kind of what I expect

1812
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:41,200
people pull out of it.
And plus I would hope that they

1813
01:44:41,200 --> 01:44:47,200
would read and see that Joseph
was preparing the Saints to

1814
01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:50,600
follow the 12.
And and you know that

1815
01:44:51,240 --> 01:44:53,680
Transfiguration, all those
accounts are very faith

1816
01:44:53,680 --> 01:44:55,880
promoting that that would help
strengthen people's testimony

1817
01:44:55,880 --> 01:44:58,600
and restoration through the
entire Brigham Young

1818
01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:00,920
administration.
That's something I'd hope to get

1819
01:45:00,920 --> 01:45:04,400
out of that this book's
different, this book.

1820
01:45:08,280 --> 01:45:13,640
I I would, I would love to be
able to say hey, here's where

1821
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:16,840
you can go get your second
writing, but I don't.

1822
01:45:17,040 --> 01:45:21,080
I don't feel like that's that's
my place, nor is it the purpose

1823
01:45:21,080 --> 01:45:23,440
of the book.
At the end of the day, that's

1824
01:45:23,440 --> 01:45:27,560
what we should be striving for
and and I would hope it would at

1825
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:31,760
least awaken in people to look
at whatever organization they're

1826
01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:33,480
at, say, well, have they changed
things?

1827
01:45:34,960 --> 01:45:37,200
Pretty much, yeah, somewhere.
How much is it?

1828
01:45:37,200 --> 01:45:38,200
Enough.
Is it not enough?

1829
01:45:40,520 --> 01:45:44,520
The the 2nd Anointing Ordinance
itself encourages you to give

1830
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:48,040
that ordinance to other people.
Is your organization standing

1831
01:45:48,040 --> 01:45:52,280
about it or they trying to
perpetuate the priesthood on the

1832
01:45:52,280 --> 01:45:56,840
earth?
And I, I, I grant you, don't

1833
01:45:56,840 --> 01:46:01,520
want to give people unworthily.
You don't want to be throwing it

1834
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:04,320
on people who are schmucks that
don't really care and aren't

1835
01:46:04,320 --> 01:46:07,640
going to live the gospel and get
get stuck in the head that

1836
01:46:07,640 --> 01:46:10,000
they're awesome now and start
doing crazy crap like a lot of

1837
01:46:10,000 --> 01:46:12,800
fundamentalists do, you know,
You know, there's that too.

1838
01:46:13,280 --> 01:46:16,400
But do they understand the
injunction that they're supposed

1839
01:46:16,400 --> 01:46:18,960
to be preparing people on giving
that ordinance to them?

1840
01:46:20,360 --> 01:46:23,280
That's an important part of it.
Then that should be part of

1841
01:46:23,280 --> 01:46:26,680
their teachings.
And if it's not, you know, I

1842
01:46:28,080 --> 01:46:30,440
whatever level people are at, I
just hope that they would look

1843
01:46:30,880 --> 01:46:33,400
and say Joseph's either a
prophet or he's not.

1844
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:36,360
He's a prophet.
He's warning me something here,

1845
01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:41,440
he's warning us.
And Paul warned the Jews, too.

1846
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:43,560
That's where Joseph got this
teaching from.

1847
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:49,160
And is there anything to these
warnings?

1848
01:46:49,360 --> 01:46:52,560
And I think if we look at our
history, we say fortunately,

1849
01:46:52,560 --> 01:46:58,160
yeah, Isaiah prophesied our
generation would be changing the

1850
01:46:58,160 --> 01:47:03,200
ordinances and the earth would
be cursed and devoured because

1851
01:47:03,200 --> 01:47:06,200
of it.
Do I blow him off too?

1852
01:47:06,760 --> 01:47:08,760
Jesus says greater the words of
Isaiah, follow him and you'll

1853
01:47:08,760 --> 01:47:11,040
listen to him.
Well, except for that he was

1854
01:47:11,040 --> 01:47:12,480
wrong.
You know, the modern day

1855
01:47:12,480 --> 01:47:15,760
prophets know better.
I would hope people at least

1856
01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:18,160
stop and think about it.
And if you come to the

1857
01:47:18,160 --> 01:47:22,000
conclusion, well, I think these
are just template changes.

1858
01:47:22,000 --> 01:47:24,120
It's the template's there.
It's OK.

1859
01:47:26,320 --> 01:47:28,680
I hope you're at least a little
bit better off than being lazy

1860
01:47:28,680 --> 01:47:30,560
about it, not caring at all, you
know?

1861
01:47:32,560 --> 01:47:37,000
But I I hope it just opens eyes
to people and and and get them

1862
01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:39,440
to think deeper about these
things.

1863
01:47:39,800 --> 01:47:44,360
I also think at the same time, I
think it's important to

1864
01:47:44,480 --> 01:47:48,120
recognize that Joseph and giving
us these warnings also gave us

1865
01:47:48,120 --> 01:47:49,200
hope.
This priest did.

1866
01:47:49,200 --> 01:47:51,120
The fullness of the priesthood
won't be taken.

1867
01:47:52,360 --> 01:47:54,520
So where you going to get it?
Where you going to find it?

1868
01:47:55,080 --> 01:47:56,800
Well, pray about it.
Find out.

1869
01:47:58,320 --> 01:48:01,400
But at the end of the day, he
promised us it would be here and

1870
01:48:01,400 --> 01:48:03,600
it would be available for people
who really want it.

1871
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:06,640
And I think that's important for
people to know.

1872
01:48:06,760 --> 01:48:09,200
It'll especially a lot of new
fundamentalists.

1873
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:13,520
You know, you you're like, oh,
mad at the church for a while,

1874
01:48:13,520 --> 01:48:15,880
which I don't think is healthy,
but I understand.

1875
01:48:15,880 --> 01:48:19,160
I get it.
But, you know, they're mad at

1876
01:48:19,160 --> 01:48:21,000
the church for a while and
they're like, well, I gotta find

1877
01:48:21,000 --> 01:48:24,160
the guy with, gotta find the one
guy with the keys and they look

1878
01:48:24,160 --> 01:48:27,000
around and they don't find it.
And they're like, shoot, like,

1879
01:48:27,520 --> 01:48:29,120
yeah, I gotta find two guys with
the keys.

1880
01:48:29,120 --> 01:48:31,640
Like, what's going on here?
And, you know, they go through

1881
01:48:31,640 --> 01:48:36,040
all these angsty, stressful
transition periods where they're

1882
01:48:36,040 --> 01:48:39,560
trying to figure this out
because it's everything's

1883
01:48:39,560 --> 01:48:42,240
contrary to what they've been
taught in the Church.

1884
01:48:42,240 --> 01:48:44,520
But then they find all these
things substantiated by the

1885
01:48:44,520 --> 01:48:46,760
early Brethren.
And the deeper you dive in the

1886
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:49,560
Early Brethren, the more
substantiated you find.

1887
01:48:49,560 --> 01:48:53,000
All this fundamentalist
teachings, broadly speaking, you

1888
01:48:53,000 --> 01:48:54,800
know, 'cause obviously we
contradict each other.

1889
01:48:55,360 --> 01:48:56,760
You know which group you're in
or whatever.

1890
01:48:57,720 --> 01:49:01,840
I I think a fundamental,
important part of the gospel is

1891
01:49:01,840 --> 01:49:03,760
that God is not a God of
despair.

1892
01:49:04,400 --> 01:49:08,080
He's not a God of well, you get
to suck you into the deal, so

1893
01:49:08,080 --> 01:49:14,800
tough luck.
He's not a God of well, I I I

1894
01:49:15,120 --> 01:49:19,080
gave the opportunity to Joseph,
and he promised everybody to

1895
01:49:19,080 --> 01:49:20,160
keep it.
You know what?

1896
01:49:20,160 --> 01:49:22,080
They they would have these.
But you're not going to get it.

1897
01:49:22,960 --> 01:49:26,400
You know, God's not like that.
He's given a promise through

1898
01:49:26,400 --> 01:49:28,560
Joseph that the former
priesthood would not be lost

1899
01:49:28,560 --> 01:49:29,840
from the earth.
Why?

1900
01:49:30,360 --> 01:49:34,560
To give you hope.
You know, maybe it's maybe

1901
01:49:34,560 --> 01:49:36,440
you're not going to find who's
got it right away.

1902
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:39,720
Maybe you're going to join a
group and think they're just

1903
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:43,240
awesome and then you find out
how corrupt they are and you got

1904
01:49:43,240 --> 01:49:45,440
to deal with that and then you
go somewhere else.

1905
01:49:45,440 --> 01:49:47,320
You have the same problem,
whatever.

1906
01:49:47,320 --> 01:49:50,120
Maybe that's your journey that
that happens to a lot of people

1907
01:49:50,120 --> 01:49:55,600
and frankly, you know it's a
difficult time to be a follower

1908
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:58,880
of Joseph.
And and so if that.

1909
01:49:58,880 --> 01:50:03,280
But if that's you, then at least
have that knowledge of hope that

1910
01:50:03,280 --> 01:50:08,120
he offers in those prophecies
and get a testimony of it.

1911
01:50:08,160 --> 01:50:11,240
Pray about it.
Find out for yourself, you know.

1912
01:50:11,800 --> 01:50:14,160
And once you've got that, you've
got something to hold on to.

1913
01:50:14,720 --> 01:50:17,000
And then you just look around
and say who's changed the

1914
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:22,720
priesthood ordinances the least
or it looks like they kept the

1915
01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:25,920
template as much as you possibly
can.

1916
01:50:26,200 --> 01:50:28,640
I don't know how else to
describe that, but there there

1917
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:31,280
are standards he offers to hold
on to.

1918
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:35,960
There's one more message in the
book that that I'd like to throw

1919
01:50:35,960 --> 01:50:40,120
out there that I haven't
discussed at all, and that's

1920
01:50:40,120 --> 01:50:41,800
this.
There's a a book called The

1921
01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:44,200
Gospel of Coilote.
It's got its own controversy

1922
01:50:44,200 --> 01:50:47,800
because what in fundamentalism
or Christianity doesn't have

1923
01:50:47,800 --> 01:50:51,680
controversy but it purports to
be written by the original

1924
01:50:51,680 --> 01:50:57,200
apostles gathering together and
saying let's remind each other

1925
01:50:57,200 --> 01:50:58,640
of everything Christ ever taught
us.

1926
01:51:00,040 --> 01:51:06,120
And there's something in there
that that well there are a few

1927
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:09,800
teachings in there that have
really impacted me personally

1928
01:51:10,960 --> 01:51:17,880
and it goes back to this idea of
of God gave the Israelites the

1929
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:23,480
the Old Testament laws as a
cursing to them and further

1930
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:26,760
Christ in in in the gospel of
Kylie.

1931
01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:31,000
It says it even better in in in
Mark chapter 10, Pharisees come

1932
01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:36,720
and Sadducees come to to Jesus,
whatever it was, religious guys

1933
01:51:36,720 --> 01:51:37,480
come to him.
I can't.

1934
01:51:37,520 --> 01:51:41,400
I think it was just the
Pharisees and they come to him

1935
01:51:41,400 --> 01:51:43,800
and said, Moses said that we
could get a bill of divorcement.

1936
01:51:44,080 --> 01:51:46,440
But what do you say?
It was a trick question because

1937
01:51:47,320 --> 01:51:48,880
they're they're trying to trap
him in it.

1938
01:51:49,720 --> 01:51:52,960
And in the Gospel of Cailate the
answers the same as Mark chapter

1939
01:51:52,960 --> 01:51:58,000
10, and it adds this.
He says, what says the spokesman

1940
01:51:58,000 --> 01:52:03,440
of God on this issue and he's
talking about Moses and they

1941
01:52:03,440 --> 01:52:07,160
said, well, he he allowed us
divorce and Jesus responds.

1942
01:52:07,160 --> 01:52:10,600
He says he allowed this because
of the hardness of your hearts

1943
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:14,040
and the beginning was not.
So then he quotes Genesis 2

1944
01:52:14,040 --> 01:52:17,640
which is rabbinical technique to
quote the earliest source you

1945
01:52:17,640 --> 01:52:19,680
possibly can that proves your
point.

1946
01:52:19,680 --> 01:52:22,280
But but basically he supports
Moses.

1947
01:52:23,160 --> 01:52:25,360
He says, yeah, Moses taught you
falsehood.

1948
01:52:26,160 --> 01:52:31,400
Moses gave you a bad law and he
condemns in the gospel of the

1949
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:34,640
extras like you know, any type
of divorce.

1950
01:52:34,640 --> 01:52:38,480
Whether it's formal, formal, a
blessed by a priest or not,

1951
01:52:38,480 --> 01:52:40,360
doesn't matter.
You leave it alone.

1952
01:52:40,520 --> 01:52:43,720
Don't you touch that.
If they're committed to it, let

1953
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:47,920
him go for it.
And and you know, so he he says.

1954
01:52:48,880 --> 01:52:52,120
So Moses gave this law that I
don't approve of on some level.

1955
01:52:52,120 --> 01:52:54,520
I'm telling you it's wicked.
But he says he gave it to the

1956
01:52:54,520 --> 01:52:58,680
heartless of your hearts.
And then he says a couple a

1957
01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:03,120
couple different things.
In one place he says marriage

1958
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:07,200
laws are given unto men because
their failure to love and to

1959
01:53:07,200 --> 01:53:10,600
empathize.
And then he says in another

1960
01:53:10,600 --> 01:53:13,960
place all the marriage laws are
given because men are in their

1961
01:53:13,960 --> 01:53:17,560
fallen condition.
And also there are three other

1962
01:53:17,600 --> 01:53:19,720
scriptures induction covenants
that modify that.

1963
01:53:20,080 --> 01:53:24,280
So, you know, you can argue all
day long about it, but we we

1964
01:53:24,280 --> 01:53:27,880
have this attitude that this is
what the Scripture says, you

1965
01:53:27,880 --> 01:53:32,440
know, and we're we're OK with
divorce because Jesus said it's

1966
01:53:32,440 --> 01:53:35,840
OK in Mark chapter 10.
You know, he condemned it.

1967
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:41,160
And and so we tend to be pretty
dogged about things like that

1968
01:53:41,200 --> 01:53:43,200
and say, well, Joseph taught
this, right?

1969
01:53:43,840 --> 01:53:47,760
Well, what I see Christ teaching
here is is not to say

1970
01:53:47,760 --> 01:53:49,880
everything's relative.
And Joseph kind of taught that

1971
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:51,640
too, right.
He said what God says is right

1972
01:53:51,640 --> 01:53:53,920
in one circumstance might be
wrong in another.

1973
01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:56,400
And you know, whatever God tells
you to do is right.

1974
01:53:57,280 --> 01:54:01,200
That's not my point either.
What he's saying there is I'm

1975
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:03,440
giving you light and knowledge
according to what you're willing

1976
01:54:03,440 --> 01:54:07,560
to receive.
I gave you DNC 42 on

1977
01:54:07,560 --> 01:54:10,840
consecration.
You weren't willing to do it, So

1978
01:54:10,840 --> 01:54:13,720
I gave you tithing.
You weren't willing to do that.

1979
01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:16,440
So I gave you lower law.
You know, I gave you a piece of

1980
01:54:16,440 --> 01:54:19,800
it or something.
So he's he's trying to say, look

1981
01:54:19,960 --> 01:54:24,760
I give you laws to help you to
progress and lighten knowledge

1982
01:54:24,840 --> 01:54:26,640
until you're perfect in light
knowledge.

1983
01:54:26,640 --> 01:54:31,920
That's Alma 12 verse 9 to 12
again and it But in this verse

1984
01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:33,800
he's saying don't say it's right
or wrong.

1985
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:36,800
Don't assume this is how I read
it.

1986
01:54:37,360 --> 01:54:41,160
Don't assume I gave you the
highest law on this matter.

1987
01:54:42,640 --> 01:54:47,200
Assume this might be a stepping
stone to a higher law on this

1988
01:54:47,200 --> 01:54:52,600
matter and that if I were to
reveal more to you then you

1989
01:54:52,600 --> 01:54:57,760
would have even more like
knowledge and more reasons to

1990
01:54:57,760 --> 01:55:02,040
try and look differently, right?
And and I think this is super

1991
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:07,240
crucial in the book I mentioned
briefly if the only the law was

1992
01:55:07,240 --> 01:55:14,000
given first then you have people
be like well if I see that you

1993
01:55:14,000 --> 01:55:17,480
paid according to your net value
and I really think you should be

1994
01:55:17,480 --> 01:55:19,000
paying according to your gross
income.

1995
01:55:19,200 --> 01:55:20,760
Right.
And then you have somebody else

1996
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:24,120
say, well brother Dave does pay
according to his gross income

1997
01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:28,200
but that's he's supposed to be
doing it on his surplus or his

1998
01:55:28,200 --> 01:55:30,960
increase.
Well I don't think he's doing it

1999
01:55:30,960 --> 01:55:33,360
right And we bickering ripe
about all these things.

2000
01:55:33,360 --> 01:55:34,440
Right.
Right.

2001
01:55:35,080 --> 01:55:37,920
And and we're we're trying to
live perfectly according to this

2002
01:55:37,920 --> 01:55:42,600
law but isn't that missing whole
purpose Tithing isn't about that

2003
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:46,200
you this certain percentage
tithing is if you do it the way

2004
01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:49,320
Joseph taught through Edward
Partridge and you do it on on

2005
01:55:49,320 --> 01:55:55,440
increase that income it's a tiny
amount What's the purpose When

2006
01:55:55,440 --> 01:56:00,760
you pay tithing you feel good
like brother so and so needed

2007
01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:05,440
that money and now he's got some
and he's not hurting now and I

2008
01:56:05,440 --> 01:56:08,680
love brother so and so and I'm
glad that he's doing better now

2009
01:56:09,160 --> 01:56:13,640
and I contributed to that
because I pay tithing and I feel

2010
01:56:13,640 --> 01:56:15,680
good.
Well that's that's what it's for

2011
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:17,560
right.
Right now Are you ready to

2012
01:56:17,560 --> 01:56:22,360
consecrate now You want to give
more of your meaning now to more

2013
01:56:22,360 --> 01:56:24,200
people and and bless more
people.

2014
01:56:24,360 --> 01:56:27,840
That's the purpose of tithing.
It's a stupid law by itself.

2015
01:56:28,320 --> 01:56:30,520
It's maybe not even an eternal
law.

2016
01:56:31,000 --> 01:56:33,280
It's a stepping stone to
consecration.

2017
01:56:34,120 --> 01:56:36,600
You know if you're consecrating
you're paying more than tithing.

2018
01:56:36,600 --> 01:56:39,480
You don't need tithing.
You know you're automatically

2019
01:56:39,480 --> 01:56:43,080
you're not calculating anything.
You're just saying I've got all

2020
01:56:43,080 --> 01:56:45,280
this extra money and I'm going
to give it away to whoever needs

2021
01:56:45,280 --> 01:56:49,440
it And you're not worried about
what the percentage is and how

2022
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:52,440
many points it's going to take
off of your tax deductions and

2023
01:56:52,440 --> 01:56:54,240
crap.
You're just doing it because you

2024
01:56:54,240 --> 01:56:58,280
love your fellow man and and so
his point there and there is

2025
01:56:58,280 --> 01:57:02,320
saying look at this law not as
the end all, be all and

2026
01:57:02,320 --> 01:57:06,080
bickering about the details.
Look at it as a stepping stone

2027
01:57:06,080 --> 01:57:08,560
to your exaltation.
You're stepping stone to your

2028
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:15,240
salvation and ask if Christ were
going to reveal more to me, how

2029
01:57:15,240 --> 01:57:17,640
would that change how I live?
Well, how?

2030
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:21,960
How would that make me better?
And that's a totally different

2031
01:57:21,960 --> 01:57:22,800
attitude.
Now.

2032
01:57:22,800 --> 01:57:24,760
I'm not saying, well, Brother
Dave pays up gross.

2033
01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:26,480
And I think that's really
pedantic.

2034
01:57:26,720 --> 01:57:28,720
You should be paying on that,
you know.

2035
01:57:28,760 --> 01:57:34,760
And, you know, get rid of those
stupid pharisaical attitudes

2036
01:57:34,760 --> 01:57:40,080
about the gospel and look at it
more as I'm trying to improve

2037
01:57:40,080 --> 01:57:43,440
you as a person.
Another thing the Gospel of

2038
01:57:43,720 --> 01:57:48,880
Kylie points out that's similar
to this that I really love is

2039
01:57:50,360 --> 01:57:54,520
he's got multiple people coming
to him for advice and one guy.

2040
01:57:54,520 --> 01:57:59,160
He says, I want you to stay and
keep your business because you

2041
01:57:59,160 --> 01:58:03,560
employ a lot of people.
Another time, he says, sell all

2042
01:58:03,560 --> 01:58:07,080
that you have and follow me.
Another time, he says, well, do

2043
01:58:07,080 --> 01:58:09,000
you give charity or do you hire
people?

2044
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:13,360
Says, Well, I do charity, says
well increase, do more charity.

2045
01:58:13,760 --> 01:58:15,720
And he's giving all these guys
different advices.

2046
01:58:15,760 --> 01:58:18,800
And 111 of the disciples says,
Lord, you tell people different

2047
01:58:18,800 --> 01:58:22,600
things and and he says, well,
every wealthy person has two

2048
01:58:22,960 --> 01:58:27,440
responsibility to either give a
lot of charity or to hire people

2049
01:58:27,800 --> 01:58:30,920
because he's taking care of
other people, helping other

2050
01:58:30,920 --> 01:58:34,080
people feed their families.
That's the the whole point, you

2051
01:58:34,080 --> 01:58:36,280
know.
But he says I give different

2052
01:58:36,280 --> 01:58:39,520
laws to different men because
some men are good businessmen

2053
01:58:39,720 --> 01:58:44,280
and can make more money and and
and hire more people and some

2054
01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:47,600
guys make a boatload of money,
but they don't like supervising

2055
01:58:47,600 --> 01:58:50,760
people.
So OK, you don't reinvest in the

2056
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:53,800
new business, just give the
money to charity, you know.

2057
01:58:54,200 --> 01:58:57,680
And so he's tailoring those
things so that they live.

2058
01:58:57,800 --> 01:58:59,680
What's the principle here is
consecration.

2059
01:58:59,800 --> 01:59:02,360
Right, right.
He's, he's not saying the way

2060
01:59:02,360 --> 01:59:05,520
for Dave to consecrate, same as
brother so and so and so and

2061
01:59:05,520 --> 01:59:07,520
same as Drew.
Everybody's got a different

2062
01:59:07,600 --> 01:59:09,280
talent, a different way of
consecrating.

2063
01:59:10,840 --> 01:59:14,480
I'm broke 3/4 of my life I'm I'm
better consecrating my time

2064
01:59:14,480 --> 01:59:17,320
talents and efforts.
You know go to you want to

2065
01:59:17,560 --> 01:59:21,840
consecrate some money go to so
and so he's got a lot of it and

2066
01:59:21,840 --> 01:59:27,320
and and so I think that attitude
about the gospel really effects

2067
01:59:27,440 --> 01:59:33,960
how you view people around you
your relationships and and I

2068
01:59:33,960 --> 01:59:37,200
think that's something
throughout this this whole as

2069
01:59:37,200 --> 01:59:39,720
I've been writing this book it's
really it's really been kind of

2070
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:43,320
deeply impressed upon me.
The more I see it there are

2071
01:59:43,320 --> 01:59:47,280
eternal principles and there are
mortal principles there are

2072
01:59:47,280 --> 01:59:50,960
eternal laws and there are
mortal laws and if you don't

2073
01:59:50,960 --> 01:59:54,000
know which is which then just
obey him to the best of your

2074
01:59:54,000 --> 01:59:58,280
ability and ask right.
But if you can start seeing and

2075
01:59:58,280 --> 02:00:03,560
perceiving the gospel as God
giving direction not of it's an

2076
02:00:03,560 --> 02:00:06,320
eternal principle that when you.
You didn't know war with your

2077
02:00:06,320 --> 02:00:09,080
neighbor, that you can kill a
guy and then take his wife,

2078
02:00:09,120 --> 02:00:11,240
shave her head, take her home
and she's yours.

2079
02:00:11,880 --> 02:00:14,400
You know, that's not an eternal
principle.

2080
02:00:14,400 --> 02:00:19,920
That's a stepping stone for a
cultural group of people who had

2081
02:00:19,920 --> 02:00:22,760
that legitimate question.
What do we do when we find, you

2082
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:27,000
know, extra women now that we've
conquered people, We love them,

2083
02:00:27,000 --> 02:00:28,760
starve and die, or we take them
home?

2084
02:00:29,760 --> 02:00:32,480
And he says, well, in your
culture, this is probably the

2085
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:33,880
best thing to do.
Leave her alone for a while.

2086
02:00:33,880 --> 02:00:37,720
Give her time to grieve, you
know and and treat her so.

2087
02:00:38,120 --> 02:00:41,240
Cut her hair off so she doesn't
look enticing to you and you

2088
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:45,080
know put her in sackcloth mashes
so she looks ugly to you so

2089
02:00:45,080 --> 02:00:46,440
you'll leave her alone for a
month.

2090
02:00:46,440 --> 02:00:48,080
Give her time to grieve her
husband.

2091
02:00:48,240 --> 02:00:51,960
Jeez, you know and then you know
if you still want her then then

2092
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:54,440
she can be your wife.
That's clearly not an eternal

2093
02:00:54,440 --> 02:00:57,480
principle and and that's an easy
example that's why I give it

2094
02:00:57,480 --> 02:01:00,360
because it's super easy to see
that's not eternal principle.

2095
02:01:00,920 --> 02:01:06,840
But when we get stuck looking at
commandments and laws as

2096
02:01:07,080 --> 02:01:08,600
everything's an eternal
principle.

2097
02:01:09,160 --> 02:01:10,680
But wait, this one contradicts
this one.

2098
02:01:10,680 --> 02:01:15,480
Wait, this one, then we lose our
testimonies or we look at it

2099
02:01:15,480 --> 02:01:18,440
saying that I agree with this,
not this, and let's petition the

2100
02:01:18,440 --> 02:01:21,960
church to change it.
You know, then we're missing the

2101
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:24,920
point.
You know, tithing is a stepping

2102
02:01:24,920 --> 02:01:27,400
stone to consecration is a
stepping stone to just loving

2103
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:29,280
your neighbor as yourself.
That's it.

2104
02:01:29,680 --> 02:01:32,640
It's that simple.
And if we're if we can see all

2105
02:01:32,640 --> 02:01:37,480
the gospel like that, then it it
softens our hearts and it it

2106
02:01:37,480 --> 02:01:40,640
gives us the opportunity to ask
for revelation.

2107
02:01:41,440 --> 02:01:45,960
You're like, well, God, you know
you say here that I can I can

2108
02:01:45,960 --> 02:01:49,320
forgive 70 * 70 but you also
tell me on the 4th time that

2109
02:01:49,680 --> 02:01:51,840
I'll be justified if I want to
beat the hell out of the guy

2110
02:01:51,840 --> 02:01:56,240
that hurt me, right.
So what's the better law, you

2111
02:01:56,240 --> 02:02:00,720
know, and and and maybe find
some distinctions that surprise

2112
02:02:00,720 --> 02:02:01,960
you.
There's the obvious thing.

2113
02:02:01,960 --> 02:02:05,360
Well, just keep forgiving.
But sometimes that's not the

2114
02:02:05,360 --> 02:02:07,200
best thing because then they
abuse other people.

2115
02:02:07,920 --> 02:02:09,920
So you know, you might pray
about it and give an answer

2116
02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:12,840
you're not expecting, but if
you're not thinking about it

2117
02:02:12,840 --> 02:02:15,480
that way, you're never gonna ask
the questions.

2118
02:02:16,080 --> 02:02:20,520
So to me, that's that's the
whole important thing about the

2119
02:02:20,520 --> 02:02:23,160
gospel for me is constantly
asking those questions.

2120
02:02:23,640 --> 02:02:28,120
What are you trying to teach me?
What our society, the

2121
02:02:28,120 --> 02:02:33,600
restoration.
You know if we're not asking

2122
02:02:33,600 --> 02:02:36,080
those questions will will the
brother and said do this, the

2123
02:02:36,080 --> 02:02:37,560
brother and said do this.
I'm going to just do this.

2124
02:02:37,560 --> 02:02:40,600
And we're constantly doing our
checklist stuff.

2125
02:02:43,040 --> 02:02:47,640
We we lose the whole spirit of
what it's all about and and I

2126
02:02:47,680 --> 02:02:49,560
think it's super important not
to do that.

2127
02:02:50,200 --> 02:02:53,040
And so anyway, that's the third
message and it shows up in the

2128
02:02:53,040 --> 02:02:55,800
book that's in the section he's
talking about changing laws,

2129
02:02:55,800 --> 02:03:01,200
changing principles, changing
gospel, coming to a better

2130
02:03:01,200 --> 02:03:05,240
understanding as to what that's
for and to where we get to the

2131
02:03:05,240 --> 02:03:10,080
point where Paul said to the
pure, all things are pure and to

2132
02:03:10,080 --> 02:03:11,640
the impure all things are
impure.

2133
02:03:12,120 --> 02:03:15,760
And he further said in the in
it's easier to read the NIV or

2134
02:03:15,760 --> 02:03:20,920
NRSV or anything with the King
James Version probably he he

2135
02:03:20,920 --> 02:03:25,800
says maybe I should look it up
so I don't misquote it.

2136
02:03:28,880 --> 02:03:32,480
I don't I don't want to misquote
it but it basically says the law

2137
02:03:32,480 --> 02:03:39,560
doesn't apply to me anymore.
But I I neither am I willing to

2138
02:03:39,560 --> 02:03:41,280
do things that are not good or
not useful.

2139
02:03:42,680 --> 02:03:46,760
And I point out in the book, he
talks about the law in terms of

2140
02:03:46,760 --> 02:03:50,480
Levitical law, Mckessic law and
that sort of stuff.

2141
02:03:51,120 --> 02:03:57,320
And how I'm reading that is, is
him saying we've got all these

2142
02:03:57,320 --> 02:04:01,680
lower laws, that's, you know,
Old Testament's lower law, New

2143
02:04:01,680 --> 02:04:03,560
Testament, even some of that's
lower law.

2144
02:04:03,560 --> 02:04:06,600
I'm, I'm not subject to that
law.

2145
02:04:06,800 --> 02:04:12,360
I have a fullness of priesthood.
Fullness of priesthood tells me

2146
02:04:12,760 --> 02:04:16,680
that some of these laws that you
are subject to are not good

2147
02:04:16,680 --> 02:04:19,840
enough.
I need to do better than that.

2148
02:04:19,840 --> 02:04:22,320
I need to live a higher
principle, these things.

2149
02:04:22,800 --> 02:04:25,480
So I'm not subject to your law
anymore.

2150
02:04:25,920 --> 02:04:30,800
I'm not subject to a higher law
and but neither am I going to

2151
02:04:30,800 --> 02:04:34,560
waste time to do bad things.
You know, just because I'm not

2152
02:04:34,560 --> 02:04:37,120
subject to your law doesn't mean
it's useful for me to break your

2153
02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:41,280
law.
And and again that's this

2154
02:04:41,280 --> 02:04:45,440
perspective of of there's
there's more out there.

2155
02:04:45,680 --> 02:04:50,000
You know what's yeah, I might be
justified to do something but am

2156
02:04:50,000 --> 02:04:55,720
I sanctified by doing that thing
or am I gonna be more perfect

2157
02:04:55,720 --> 02:05:00,320
for doing that thing that that's
really an important attitude

2158
02:05:00,960 --> 02:05:03,320
that that that Paul's kind of
exhibiting here.

2159
02:05:03,520 --> 02:05:05,440
That's that's my reading of it
anyway.

2160
02:05:06,840 --> 02:05:11,240
And and we see this at DNC 7684
and 88 you know, saying all

2161
02:05:11,240 --> 02:05:14,480
things are theirs.
You know things past, present or

2162
02:05:14,480 --> 02:05:17,240
in the future.
Well, how are all things yours?

2163
02:05:17,240 --> 02:05:20,240
And how have you overcome all of
the law?

2164
02:05:21,840 --> 02:05:24,680
If you overcome all the law, are
you not given something higher?

2165
02:05:24,680 --> 02:05:28,120
Are you not given a bigger law,
a better law, a more perfect

2166
02:05:28,120 --> 02:05:30,840
law?
And you know, maybe you're going

2167
02:05:30,840 --> 02:05:33,640
to struggle with that too, but
still, you know, shouldn't you

2168
02:05:33,640 --> 02:05:41,320
expect to be progressing all
these things in any regular?

2169
02:05:41,920 --> 02:05:44,800
Yeah, So that's my long winded
answer.

2170
02:05:45,000 --> 02:05:47,600
No, no, that's that's that's
great stuff.

2171
02:05:47,720 --> 02:05:49,400
That's good.
That's good stuff, Drew.

2172
02:05:50,120 --> 02:05:52,080
All right, dude, that's
beautiful.

2173
02:05:52,880 --> 02:05:54,160
What was the name of the book
again?

2174
02:05:54,160 --> 02:05:58,080
Where can they find it?
Changing ordinances?

2175
02:05:58,080 --> 02:05:59,960
Losing priesthood?
It's on Amazon.

2176
02:06:00,120 --> 02:06:04,560
If you just type my name and
then if you type my name you you

2177
02:06:04,560 --> 02:06:06,800
get all my books. sci-fi,
fantasy and all that sort of

2178
02:06:06,800 --> 02:06:09,600
stuff too.
But all my all my stuff pops up.

2179
02:06:10,400 --> 02:06:12,760
Currently I'm waiting for
approval on the hardback

2180
02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:14,720
paperback.
I expect that in a day or two

2181
02:06:15,840 --> 02:06:19,360
they can be kind of quirky.
Sometimes they they give you a

2182
02:06:19,360 --> 02:06:22,640
template, say make it exactly
like this and make it 1 pixel

2183
02:06:22,640 --> 02:06:26,440
off and they complain and you
get exactly right and it doesn't

2184
02:06:26,440 --> 02:06:29,040
work.
So sometimes it takes a few mess

2185
02:06:29,040 --> 02:06:31,000
arounds and this time they're
really giving me some grief.

2186
02:06:31,000 --> 02:06:33,520
So perfect.
Hopefully it's just a couple

2187
02:06:33,520 --> 02:06:35,600
days.
I'll throw a link in there so

2188
02:06:35,600 --> 02:06:39,000
people can just go right to it
and get it, but dude, that was

2189
02:06:39,000 --> 02:06:42,320
good stuff, my man.
Awesome.

2190
02:06:42,760 --> 02:06:43,880
Thanks.
Appreciate that.

2191
02:06:44,240 --> 02:06:45,960
Thanks, Drew.
Super fun chatting with you.

2192
02:06:46,440 --> 02:06:48,200
Always.
All right, man.

2193
02:06:48,640 --> 02:07:22,240
Bye, everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2194
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:23,600
Renegade Podcast.