Episode #101: Exploring Branches Of Fundamentalism Series-The Harmston Group W/Christopher Layton

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So you're going to get 2
episodes this week.

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Saturday.
I'll be back, as usual, with

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another podcast, but today we're
going to continue the series of

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exploring the branches of Mormon
fundamentalism as we take a look

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at the True and Living Church of
Jesus Christ of the Last Days,

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also called the TLC, or Harmston
group.

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Christopher Layton, who's an
apostle of the TLC, and I have a

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conversation about the group's
founder, Jim Harmston.

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Then we move on to the history
of the TLC.

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As we look at the group from its
inception to the present time.

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We go over some of the
challenges that they have faced

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and finish up by talking about
some of the unique doctrines

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that are held by the TLC.
Now, we may not always agree on

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the doctrines, but if we truly
desire understanding, we need to

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be able to explore these beliefs
and understand what it is our

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Mormon fundamentalist brothers
and sisters believe.

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That's next on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse.
To become and raise men and

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women of virtue and character is
a Herculean task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com.

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Go to the bottom of the page,
search out the blog post, and

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order your copy today.
I can bear personal testimony

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from personal experience that
this is an invaluable tool to

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help you raise men and women of
virtue and character.

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So as I alluded to in the show
open here, I have a few

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announcements to make.
But first, I've been really

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prompted all week to address
some folks out there in the

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audience.
I don't know who you are.

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It's just a feeling I've got
from the Spirit this whole week.

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First, I felt prompted to to
address you, the listener.

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If you're here on this podcast
listening, it's not an accident.

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There's a reason for that.
Most likely you're either being

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prepared or called to something.
Now, what that is, I don't know.

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I'm not your spiritual leader,
but I can point you in the

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direction of someone who can
tell you, and that's our Father

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and our God.
He stands ready to hear those

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prayers and to reveal to you
what you need in these last

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days.
Now, I want to speak just for a

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second, to folks who are feeling
a little confused about where to

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go and what to do.
I've had an increasing number of

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emails over the last few weeks
from folks asking where they can

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go to attend church.
Look, myself and others are here

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to help.
No matter who you are, if you're

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a traditional believing Mormon,
there's a place for you in the

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fullness of the gospel, both for
you and your family.

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Heck, if we can't find a place,
you can come worship with me and

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my family.
That door is always open.

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Now, I know things in Mormonism
feel a little confusing right

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now.
I get it.

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I've been there.
If you're feeling this way,

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please, please, please.
I'm begging you not to throw the

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baby out with the bathwater when
it comes to your testimony of

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the restored gospel.
If you are leaving the LDS

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Church but still have a
testimony, or if you feel like

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your testimony is hanging by a
thread, reach out.

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You can always reach out to me.
I will always answer your

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emails, and if it's an
emergency, put 911 in the

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description.
I will reach out to you quick.

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I and others stand ready and
willing to help you any way

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possible.
Maybe you just need to talk

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through some questions.
We can do that here.

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Myself and others in the Mormon
fundamentalist community stand

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ready to help you no matter
where you end up or no matter

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where you feel called.
But please don't throw your

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testimony of the restored gospel
away.

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OK, Announcement #1.
One place I feel like we can do

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better in in fundamentalism is
helping the sisters, both in

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fundamentalism as well as
sisters investigating Mormon

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fundamentalism.
To help those sisters,

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specifically my wife Tanya and
my wife Amber, and women from a

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few different faith traditions
within Mormon fundamentalism

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have set up a new Facebook group
just for these sisters.

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Its name is Mormon
Fundamentalism for Women.

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I know it's not real catchy, and
it's a simple name, but hey, we

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aren't exactly marketing
experts, You know what I mean?

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Now this is just for the
sisters.

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Let me stress again, this is
just for the sisters.

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That means no dudes.
If any of the admins catch a

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dude trying to infiltrate this
group, they will be mocked

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mercilessly on this podcast for
quite a few weeks.

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So don't go there fellas, It's
not going to work out in your

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favor.
This is a private group where if

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a woman with questions about
fundamentalism can go and ask

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questions without having to
worry about being exposed, they

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can have their privacy
protected.

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The link to that Facebook group
can be found in the Episodes

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show notes or at
mormonrenegade.com in the blog

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menu of the of the website.
Finally, I want to tell you

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about some changes that I've
made to the the news program I

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do when you subscribe to the
$12.00 package on Patreon.

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I've retooled that show so that
you're going to get more

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analysis and less comedy.
My hopes is, is that as we begin

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to enter more and more troubled
times, you'll be able to be able

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to digest the news in a way that
is really from the the point of

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view of someone who believes in
the fullness of of the restored

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gospel.
So if you so feel like

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subscribing to that news
program, you can do that at

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Patreon under the Mormon
Renegade page and that's 12

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bucks a month.
Now for the next 4 weeks I'm

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going to be putting up the news
program for free on Rumble so

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that you can get a taste because
I don't want you just to buy

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something you don't feel like
you're going to get your money's

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worth.
So go to the Mormon Renegade

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Rumble page, look it up, and for
the next 4 weeks that news

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program will will be free.
So you can try it out and know

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if it's for you or not.
In conclusion, I just want to

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say how thankful I am to you,
the listener, for coming here

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every week.
And I hope that your time here

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is well spent, that that you
don't, that you feel like you're

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getting something out of this
that is so important to me.

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If there's anything you ever
want discussed on the on the

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podcast, feel free to drop me a
line.

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We'll definitely take that under
consideration.

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But know that I'm so thankful to
you, the listener that's been

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here with me on this journey as
we've explored Mormon

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fundamentalism and we look
forward to just keeping this

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going.
So again, thank you for

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listening.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Chris, how you doing?

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Doing great, dude.
I'm excited.

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You agreed to come on.
I know it.

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It can always be a little bit
disconcerting to come on and

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talk about what you believe.
So thanks for being here.

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Now, Chris, you're you're an
apostle in the True and Living

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Church, right?
The TTLC.

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What's the full name of that of
of the Church again?

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The True and living Church of
Jesus Christ of Saints.

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The Last Days.
Nice.

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So real quick, who who was the
founder there?

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How?
How did you guys come into

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being?
That sort of thing.

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Well, James Harmston is the
founder of the church and it

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came into being from, you know,
well, originally it was

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established in 1990 and you
know, it was a how do I explain?

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When he began to investigate,
let me back up a little bit.

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When he began to investigate
what was going on in the LDS

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Church, he could see things were
starting to go South and he

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started asking questions in his
quorum meetings.

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You know, particularly about,
you know, how come you know

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we're taught the true order of
prayer and.

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We're told not to pray in the
Trotter of prayer or another

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one.
He said that he met with a shirt

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tailed relative.
I think he's called him who was

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the temple president in Ogden
and he asked him, hey, you know,

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do women have the priesthood?
And he said, well, no, only

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their husbands have the
priesthood and he says, well,

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what?
What about those women that are

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that are getting the ordinances
in there?

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Then I suppose that men are
doing the ordinances for them

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and for the women right in in
their temple ordinances.

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No, no, of course not.
Now he says, well then are women

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doing these ordinances?
And he says yes.

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Well then, do they have
priesthood to do those

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ordinances?
Well, no.

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Well, what kind of ordinances
are they doing?

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Well, the same ones they do with
the men's.

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And what kind of those?
Well, those are priesthood

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ordinances.
So you're saying that the

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priesthood ordinances that the
men are doing on the men's side

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of the temple are also being
done on the women's side.

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So wouldn't that mean that maybe
the women also hold the

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priesthood?
Yeah, so.

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Anyways, you know, there were
times like that that eventually

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would get him in trouble with
the with the state president and

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things.
And real quick, can I ask you a

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question real quick?
Sure.

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You said some of the changes.
What kind of changes was he

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seeing in 1990 that would have
been concerning to him?

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Well, there was the big one that
when they changed the temple

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ordinances at the beginning of
1990, it was April.

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I think it was.
In 1990, when they see I, they

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had taken out the penalties,
they took out the Five Points

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fellowship, they took out the
Adamic language, the lecture,

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the lecture at the veil, and all
those sorts of things.

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You know, I mean the.
And when you take out the

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penalties, you know, we're told
because I was endowed and night

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I was endowed before I went on
my mission in 1988.

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And we're told, you know, these
things you must never divulge

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nor forget.
And those penalties were part of

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it.
You know, I'm not revealing

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those penalties to you in this
setting, but I'm telling you

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that these things we were told
never to forget, now we're

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supposed to forget about them.
Because somehow they're not

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important anymore, right?
And those were the changes that

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were done in 1990 that sealed
the deal for the LDS Church, you

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know, and Ezra Benson was the,
well, you know, all the brethren

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were basically saying, hey.
You know, we're we're cool with

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it, we're fine with it.
And you know, as much as much as

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he was loved, you know, there
were things that were done that

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were wrong.
So anyways those were the big

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changes that were done.
So, so real quick in in in in in

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the TLC, is it kind of a tenant,
tenant that that's when the

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church went into apostasy was
when the the ordinances were

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changed in 1990.
Because in a lot of

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fundamentalism there's a there's
a narrative and that that by the

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time Heber J.
Grant is President of the

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church.
That's when the apostasy really

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begins to happen.
Is well in 1832, we have Joseph

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receiving the revelation that
the Church in DNC 84 is under

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condemnation for vanity and
unbelief.

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Well, that was that basically
started the clock for the

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church.
Now, Brigham Young took

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everybody out West and he tried
to take another run at it.

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And he had a lot of people that
were more interested in the

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things of this world, the
customs and fashions of the

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world, than they were really in
being Saints.

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And so you know the issue was.
Is that the temple endowment

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that Joseph was trying to
establish for the Saints?

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00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,200
Those were what we call first
anointings.

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00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,760
Now those things, if you are
true and faithful in keeping

227
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,320
your covenants and your first
anointings, then you will be

228
00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,960
eligible to receive your second
anointings, which is your

229
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,000
calling on election.
Now Hebrew J.

230
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:08,520
Grant, he basically killed it.
You know, by the time he came

231
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,320
along, there were practically
none.

232
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,760
That were being done of the
second anointings.

233
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:20,680
And so those people had no way
of receiving that ordinance by

234
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,720
that time.
And so they, you know, that

235
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,640
heads you up to the big question
that I asked when I was in the

236
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,400
LDS church.
Well, when I got my endowment?

237
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,360
I asked.
How is it that I become a king

238
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,720
and a priest?
Because I'm told that in the

239
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,760
endowment that I'm only anointed
to become such.

240
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,280
Well, apparently there's
something better that has to

241
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,160
happen.
I didn't know what that was.

242
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,880
I had no idea that it was the
2nd anointing or the calling an

243
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,520
election ordinance.
You know, and I had asked it

244
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,920
several times.
I just figured, well must be my

245
00:14:54,240 --> 00:15:00,320
celestial marriage to my wife
that you know the the someday

246
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,440
God will just round me up and.
And give me those things when I

247
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:11,880
need them.
So you know basically the the

248
00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:16,000
answer to your question is when
do they go South is yeah it was

249
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,240
it was in pretty rough shape by
the time they even got to Hebrew

250
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,000
grant but you know they were
wanting to change the temple

251
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,360
garments and.
You know, things were going

252
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,000
South even before that.
I mean, Joseph when he went, it

253
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,920
was going bad.
Even when Joseph was was there,

254
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,760
when they sent a letter to him,
you know, Emma sent a letter to

255
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,480
him saying, hey, you better come
back, you know, because that you

256
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,840
know, they told him that he's
like leaving the the flock to

257
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,400
the wolves.
And and that's when he said,

258
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,840
well, if my life is of no value
to my friends, then it is of

259
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:04,760
none to me.
And so where did it go bad?

260
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:09,800
And you know, pretty much almost
right at the beginning.

261
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,920
I mean you're when you're
talking, the Lord has condemned

262
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,120
the church.
In 1832, the church had just

263
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:21,280
barely been established.
So, so in your view, it's kind

264
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,560
of a a, a gradual worsening, a
gradual worsening.

265
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,520
Right, right.
Because you see, they had kings

266
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,200
and priests.
They had members of the what we

267
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,840
would call the Church of the
First Born, those who are

268
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,880
anointed of the Quorum of the
Anointed.

269
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,520
Reagan was one, Heber Kimball
was one.

270
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,600
There was a there was a good
number of them.

271
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,800
I can't recall how many there
were there.

272
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,680
You know, I would assume at
least hundreds, but I can't

273
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:54,600
remember.
But you know, but these, these

274
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,320
people, men and women, who
received these ordinances, kings

275
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,359
and Queens, priests and
priestesses eventually.

276
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,640
They would just simply live out
their lives, but they could not

277
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,400
pass on those blessings to their
posterity.

278
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,720
So you're talking basically a
it's kind of like a war of

279
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,200
attrition.
Eventually they just died out,

280
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:18,920
Right.
Right.

281
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,760
So real quick, before we jump
back into and on to Jim Harmston

282
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,359
and and and the church, I don't,
I want to talk about you for

283
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,600
just a second.
How when did you first realize,

284
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,400
hey, something's off here.
Something's not right.

285
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,480
What?
What was your first inclination?

286
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,600
Cause, look, nobody, I, I I've
been, I was LDS long enough to

287
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:45,200
know nobody really accidentally
falls into this, right?

288
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,440
Normally there's something that
tips the hand, and you're kind

289
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,480
of like, well, I guess I better
read up on this and then next

290
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,080
thing you know, you're down the
Adam God rabbit hole.

291
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,840
And you're you have the old
what, what, what?

292
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,240
What happened with you there?
Well, it was the Adam God thing.

293
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,480
I mean, because if there's
anything that a prophet should

294
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,880
know, a prophet should know who
God is.

295
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,600
And you know, when Brigham Young
said Adam is our father and God

296
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,960
the only God with whom we have
to do, then that should be

297
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,560
pretty clear.
And you know, I went to my

298
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,000
Bishop and asked him, I says,
Well, isn't.

299
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,320
Aren't we supposed to believe
that Adam is God?

300
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,840
And he pulled out Mormon
doctrine by Bruce Armoconke and

301
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,560
he began to read out of that,
you know, on Bruce Armoconke,

302
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,280
you know, he just, I can't
remember exactly what he said.

303
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,440
He says it's only apostates
believe in that, you know, and

304
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,280
then I'm trying to think who
else there was.

305
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,720
But he was kind of the main one
that he pulled out.

306
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,400
And he says, well, does that
answer your questions?

307
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,880
Well, at the time, you know, I
was still a submissive servant

308
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,800
to the state, so.
What am I going to do?

309
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,280
And so I kept it quiet for a
while.

310
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,080
But then I started to see some
other things.

311
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,440
You know, they when I did
realize that there wasn't, you

312
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,000
know, that this temple ordinance
change was not the right thing

313
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,680
that should have happened
because most of everybody,

314
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,240
including my own parents, you
know, they thought, oh, this is

315
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,080
a wonderful, glorious change,
you know?

316
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,840
And God has revealed his will
from heaven type of thing.

317
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:29,240
And by the time I went to my
last session in the Jordan River

318
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:35,920
Temple, that was my last one.
I can feel God's anger in that

319
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,360
building to where it felt like
it was going to explode.

320
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,960
I told my wife, I says I will
not go back into that building

321
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,400
again or any other of the LDS
temples.

322
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,120
Oh, that's a pretty dynamic turn
on just one session.

323
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,400
But So what?
What was your wife's response?

324
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:03,960
She was quiet.
She kept quiet, you know, See

325
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,520
it, it took her quite a while.
I had to do a lot of

326
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:13,320
investigating, you know, before
I really made the decision that,

327
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,320
you know, it was time for this
change.

328
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:23,640
You know, I had, it was probably
a year of investigating some of

329
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,160
this stuff.
And I had a friend who was in

330
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,960
this church, and so he was
giving me some of the pamphlets

331
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,520
of the church and I was reading
it.

332
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,240
I hid it in my Book of Mormon
while I was listening in

333
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,680
sacrament meeting.
And, you know, my wife knew

334
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:48,240
she'd taught me once in a while,
but, well, I wasn't going to be

335
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,160
stopped.
Once you once, all of a sudden

336
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,080
you wake up.
You can't, you can't stop from

337
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,000
that insatiable urge to to find
out you can't help it.

338
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,560
It's like as if there is a
magnet inside of you that's just

339
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:09,640
drawing you, you know?
And so, yeah.

340
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,560
No, you know, and The funny
thing is, is that.

341
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,400
Like, I enjoyed going to the
Elias temple.

342
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,160
I was a weekly temple attending
kind of guy, right?

343
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,200
Because I just dug it.
But there was about at about

344
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,920
year five, I can remember
thinking something doesn't flow

345
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,760
quite right in this.
And I couldn't figure it out.

346
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:40,720
And it wasn't until years later
I started reading about Adam.

347
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,120
God, I started reading about.
The temple changes where I'm

348
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:49,920
like, oh, that's what it is,
'cause here's the thing, I think

349
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,200
no matter how hard the LDS
church tries, it'll never be

350
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,000
able to get rid of those
vestiges of Adam, God that are

351
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,400
there in that temple ceremony.
And and the more they try, I

352
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:07,720
think the more disjointed or
discombobulated the the

353
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,680
endowment will continue to feel,
'cause you're not getting the

354
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,040
whole story.
I mean it's it's.

355
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,920
When you break down the temple
ceremony, it's ultimately a very

356
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,240
effective teaching mechanism for
Adam, God, the, the Temple, and

357
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,000
so to speak, right in addition
to to the right.

358
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,680
Well, not only that, but it is a
parallel image of the First

359
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,040
Vision.
Right.

360
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,200
Yep.
Yep, 100%.

361
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,120
And so, yeah, it's it.
It's absolutely so.

362
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,560
How did you discover Jim
Harmston in the TLC?

363
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,200
Was that church already set up
when you came out?

364
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:46,840
OK?
Oh yeah.

365
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,480
By the time I got there, you
know, we were in what was called

366
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,880
the Red Brick store, which you
know, down on Main Street, I

367
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,720
mean the the we call it the RBS.
The church was so full of

368
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,720
people, we were practically
hanging out the windows.

369
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,280
You know, we were, we were
sitting on the stairs, you know,

370
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,560
because it was a two level
building to try to listen to him

371
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:15,120
when he was teaching and so.
Do you remember that first time

372
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:16,760
you attended A fundamentalist
meeting?

373
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,160
The first time?
Yeah, yeah.

374
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,920
I was so nervous when I attended
my first one.

375
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,000
I'm not I I went strapped.
I'm not going to lie, I'm like,

376
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,080
OK, if I got to shoot my way
out, so be it.

377
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,080
But here we go.
It was nothing pretty or

378
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,880
anything like that.
But by that time.

379
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,560
Warren Jeffs had done
significant damage and, you

380
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,040
know, you just quite sure what
you were getting.

381
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:46,440
Well, I was pretty skeptical
when I first went, but because

382
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,840
of the doctrines that were being
taught, I'm like, I'm going to

383
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:55,520
give him my full attention and
see what he has to say.

384
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,480
Hear him out.
That's awesome.

385
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:04,080
And so, you know, here I am, You
know, I've been a member of the

386
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,880
LDS church ever since I was
born, you know, or at least ever

387
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,280
since I was baptized.
Anyways, you know, family was

388
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,160
old Mormon pioneer stock, 3rd
grade.

389
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,840
Grandpa had, you know, 10 wives
and 50 kids.

390
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:24,960
And and so we were pretty well
familiar with, you know, what

391
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,440
fundamentalist type of thinking
was.

392
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,280
But I did not know that Adam.
So I did not know anything about

393
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,600
the Adam God doctrine until I
heard it from James.

394
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,040
You know, my it wasn't until
after that.

395
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,120
Then I asked my mom about it and
she's like, oh, yeah, well, they

396
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:44,760
used to teach that.
And I'm like, why didn't you

397
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,520
tell me about it?
Right.

398
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,960
Well, they just said it wasn't
important, so I didn't say

399
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,600
anything.
Yeah, that's kind of how things

400
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,600
get lost, you know, in the
audience church.

401
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,800
It is.
They just figure it's not

402
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,800
important.
You know what need hath my Lord

403
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,800
of this tower saying that this
is a timepiece type of thoughts.

404
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,280
Right, exactly.
All right.

405
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,160
So let's jump back on to Jim
Harmston's story here.

406
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,520
So he's, he's getting in trouble
with the stake president for

407
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,160
maybe asking certain questions
and and teaching certain things.

408
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:23,160
What happens from there?
Well, he started having home

409
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,760
meetings, and people just
started to get started to come.

410
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,960
They, you know, they hadn't
organized the church yet.

411
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:36,880
And yeah, he moved to Manti.
He had been living in Ogden

412
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,760
before, but he was a real
estate, a realtor.

413
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:48,280
And God just told him to come
down here and to, you know, he

414
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,720
wanted to find a place where God
wanted him to be.

415
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:57,360
And so you know he was down
here, participated in church, he

416
00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:01,000
was a Scout leader.
You know a lot of the boys that

417
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,240
were here, they he was, he was
their Scout leader and he helped

418
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:10,040
him get their Eagle Scout and
stuff like that and anyways

419
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,040
forward to that.
These people started to meet

420
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:20,400
with him and they began, he had
fleshed out what is called the

421
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,320
models and that is his, you
know, teachings that he gave,

422
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:31,280
which are there's like seven of
them that he would give that

423
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:37,720
last about 2-3 hours per each
one that would basically go over

424
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,040
the plan of salvation and the
plan of exaltation.

425
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:49,080
And so you know, these people,
they would come and meet and

426
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:55,280
rumor has it that they people
were being monitored by the

427
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,560
church and then they'd get home
and and suddenly their Bishop

428
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,120
would be on their tail asking
them why are you meeting with

429
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:06,880
this person down there in Manti?
Why you know, what's up with

430
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,200
that?
And but at the time, you know he

431
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,920
was still LDS.
But.

432
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,600
So Chris, were these just study
groups that he was having in his

433
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,560
home?
Is that kind of what what these

434
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,920
were?
So it's not like he it's not

435
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,320
like they were doing ordinances
yet or anything like that.

436
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,480
No, no.
It was just a study group, just

437
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:37,680
a study group he had, you know,
and eventually the he, you know,

438
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,920
when it came to the start asking
what was it?

439
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:47,080
I can't remember who it was in
Buckner about praying in Detroit

440
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,920
or prayer.
And he asked the dump president,

441
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,480
well, don't you think that you
ought to, that we should know

442
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,960
or, you know, and what should we
do and stuff like this?

443
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:03,800
And And he just said, well, if I
was supposed to know, then

444
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,040
somebody would tell me.
And, you know, so eventually he

445
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,600
said, you know what, I'm going
to start praying in the charter

446
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,360
prayer.
And so he's doing, he said to

447
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:20,360
his love wife, Elaine, you know,
if God's going to toast us for

448
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:25,640
us for this, it's better to try
and die than not, you know.

449
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,000
And so they put on their
priesthood robes and it changed

450
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,640
ever since.
And that is, you know, they

451
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,720
basically told him, well, you
can't.

452
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,640
They have told him you can't
teach in your home.

453
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,600
And you know, but when they
found out he was, you know, as

454
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,120
far as the charter prayer thing,
that was the deal breaker.

455
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,760
They, you know, they
excommunicated him and and so,

456
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,200
and I can't particularly
remember exactly when they

457
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,240
excommunicated and all I know is
that the church eventually was

458
00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,520
established in 1990.
You know, that's that's so crazy

459
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,400
because we have accounts of
people performing the true order

460
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,960
of prayer in their homes for a
lot of years, right?

461
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,680
It's really not till about the
50s when the church starts

462
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,040
really getting animate.
Don't do this.

463
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,920
There's a letter that was sent
out to all the state presidents

464
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,720
in 1978, which was a month
before they gave the blacks the

465
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,160
priesthood, told them they were
no longer to have prayer

466
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,000
circles, that it was taking away
from their family time.

467
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,720
And instead, in lieu of you
having these prayer circles, you

468
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,400
can just have, you know, you can
request members of your state

469
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:42,560
presidency or something like
that.

470
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,760
And they can, they can go and
pray and and have their prayer

471
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,400
circles or whatever in the
temples, but no longer can you

472
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,880
have it in your state area.
So basically they cut the phone

473
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,520
line to these people back in 78,
a month before they were going

474
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,640
to have that vote on on the
blacks and the priesthood.

475
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,560
You know, it's just a typical
tactic when you know if you're

476
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,560
going to rob somebody's house,
cut the phone line first, they

477
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,800
can't call out and then go ahead
and do what you're going to do.

478
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:14,760
And that's what happened.
Wow.

479
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,880
Wow.
So yeah, So yeah, when I read

480
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,440
that, it was shocking to me that
they that they went that

481
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,920
direction to take that away.
So, OK, so let's let's go to

482
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,880
that time where where where
Jim's been excommunicated.

483
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,160
Does he immediately start a new
church after that or is he just

484
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,600
kind of left hanging for a
while?

485
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,400
I don't think he started.
I I can't.

486
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,200
I can't exactly remember the
timeline of how long it took him

487
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,640
from the time.
I know there was a period of

488
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,440
time.
It wasn't an immediate let's

489
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,080
start the church up.
As soon as that happened, they

490
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,680
just continued their their
meetings and eventually the

491
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,480
church was formed.
And couple more quick questions

492
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,120
here before we move on.
It sounds like he was really

493
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,560
kind of getting a little bit of
AI.

494
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,760
Don't want to.
Well, maybe I use the right

495
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,080
word.
He had a certain amount of

496
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,360
people who enjoyed coming over
to his home for those meetings.

497
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,640
Oh yeah.
What happens to a lot of those

498
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,680
folks once he's X?
Do they stop coming or do they

499
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,720
continue to come?
Well, a number of them do

500
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:35,440
continue to come.
But there was a, you know, there

501
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:43,320
was a time where that group of
people met together, but some

502
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,560
people were doing things that
were immoral.

503
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:53,360
That that's kind of that's
basically when James said this

504
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,520
is wrong and it's an
abomination.

505
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,920
You can't do this.
And it had to do with people in

506
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:02,520
plural marriage.
Three in a bad type of thing.

507
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,680
Gotcha, he said.
We're not going to do that.

508
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:14,120
And so it separated the church.
The church separated and some a

509
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,960
bunch of people went their way
and the rest of us were left,

510
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,680
were left here, OK.
And so that's when, you know

511
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,280
that's essentially pretty
quickly right after that then

512
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,200
the church was formed.
OK, all right.

513
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,560
So going I'm just trying to wrap
my head around things here.

514
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,520
So was plural marriage already
being practiced within this

515
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,000
study group?
Yeah.

516
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,080
OK All right.
Was was Jim a practicing

517
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,160
polygamist at that point, Sir?
I don't.

518
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,760
I don't know.
I don't know if he was at that

519
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:49,560
point.
I don't.

520
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:52,960
I don't know that exact.
Time.

521
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,320
No, you're good.
You're good.

522
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:55,600
No No sweat.
No sweat.

523
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,000
I want.
I want to talk a little bit more

524
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,760
about the models.
It's it's a unique, a unique

525
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,800
sounding kind of thing, he said.
Their teachings.

526
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:12,080
Why did he call them the models?
Well, it was kind of like a

527
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,200
model would build one concept
upon another, and so he would

528
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:21,840
draw pictures as he was doing a
model and it would build from

529
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:27,200
one concept to another.
And so there was a lot of visual

530
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,760
imagery that people were able to
jump from one concept to the

531
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,000
next to the next.
So it was like a it was

532
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,400
literally like a model that he
was building, and it was

533
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:45,560
something that he and some
others had come up with, you

534
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,800
know, previously, and it's
something they'd worked on.

535
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,400
OK, cool.
No, that makes that makes sense

536
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,240
And and I I do want to revisit
those here in a minute because.

537
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,440
I'm guessing there's probably
some some doctrine there that's

538
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,800
unique to the TLC.
Is that correct?

539
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,040
I think, yeah.
It's like it's unique to the TLC

540
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,040
and maybe another group, but
then some other things are

541
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,760
unique to the TLC and this
group.

542
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,120
You know we'll we'll we'll get
there here after a little while.

543
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,520
I want to continue with the
story.

544
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:20,760
So at the time that Jim forms
the the TLC and is that an OK

545
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,920
acronym to use?
Sure.

546
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,320
OK.
At the time he starts the TLC,

547
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,199
how many members start the group
with him?

548
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:30,760
Or is it just him and his
family?

549
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,040
Oh boy.
No, it wasn't just him and his

550
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,280
family.
There must have been 250.

551
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,480
There was.
I don't know, It was.

552
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,000
There were just people just
coming and going all the time.

553
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,440
I would say there was all.
It's probably typically a

554
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,480
running total of at least a
couple 100 people.

555
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,080
OK.
All right.

556
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,880
And and the.
The excuse me, the the typical

557
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,520
Sunday meetings were held out of
the red brick store there,

558
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,120
right, they were.
OK, until the assembly hall was

559
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,640
built anyways.
OK.

560
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,560
And and the assembly hall was
there in Manti as well.

561
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,600
Yes, right, right on that same
block.

562
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,280
OK.
And it at this time, do they do

563
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,800
they immediately begin like
building a temple, getting ready

564
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,240
for ordinances that way.
I mean in in his vision.

565
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,640
Because fundamentalism, when
when you talk about

566
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:32,160
fundamentalist groups, there's
some who have a very hands off

567
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,680
kind of feeling when it comes to
temple work, right?

568
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,360
Like, no, that's something we're
supposed to do in the

569
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,640
Millennium.
Other groups don't have that

570
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,600
compunction.
They'll they'll go forward and

571
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,080
they'll be like let's build a
temple.

572
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,760
What It was pretty quick.
It was pretty quick.

573
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,320
OK, cool.
The endowment house, Yeah.

574
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,840
So.
And and if this is too personal,

575
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,560
you can tell me to shut the pie
hole won't offend me a bit.

576
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,920
It's my understanding that you
need your second anointings in

577
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:07,040
order to dedicate a temple or or
start temple work right and kind

578
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,000
of be be in that position.
When does Jim?

579
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,040
When does Jim receive his second
anointings?

580
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,680
Well, that was with his, you
know, that was basically when he

581
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,920
had his meeting with the four
angels.

582
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,480
And that what here was that was
November the 25th.

583
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:37,720
Let's see if I've got that on
the notes.

584
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:38,960
I can't remember exactly what
year it.

585
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:44,120
Was If you don't, it's OK yeah,
unfortunately I'm not the best

586
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,000
with dates, but it was a number
of years before.

587
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,920
So did he have those visitations
before or after he left the LDS

588
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,920
Church?
November, oh, November the 25th,

589
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:04,480
1990.
So yeah, November the 25th, 1990

590
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,200
is when he had the visit with
Four Angels.

591
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,320
OK.
And and he's excommunicating.

592
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,360
It was 1990 as well I'm not
sure.

593
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,360
And then it was 94 is when the
church was organized.

594
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,920
So.
OK, so so if if you don't mind,

595
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,320
because I'm always fascinated by
by people receiving those kind

596
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:33,160
of visions, if if it's not too
sacred and it's something that

597
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,520
that you can share.
What was said in in the meeting

598
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,560
with these four angels?
Is it like 4 distinct meetings

599
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,760
or do they all come at once?
It was at once.

600
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,720
OK.
Do we know that once?

601
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,800
Yeah, Enoch, Enoch, Noah,
Abraham, and Moses.

602
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:54,280
OK.
And what was the thrust of the

603
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,240
meeting?
I mean, what, what happened

604
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:58,800
there?
Well, he didn't.

605
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,280
He didn't he?
He just said that they laid

606
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,560
their hands on his head and gave
him the anointing, which was his

607
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,840
second anointing.
It's called an election at that

608
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,080
time.
So.

609
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,880
And as far as what they said the
baby was breathing, that was a

610
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,640
previous dream.
Sorry, I'm communicating with.

611
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,720
No, you're good.
You're good.

612
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:24,440
She's trying to remind me of
things, but they I don't.

613
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,840
He didn't really say exactly
what they said, other than the

614
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,280
fact that they laid their hands
on his head and called him to

615
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,320
his Apostolic calling.
OK.

616
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,600
OK.
And so from there that's, that's

617
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,240
where he probably gets to
feeling like, OK, now I'm

618
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:41,520
empowered so to speak this has
heavenly approval.

619
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,960
Now we can go to work.
OK, cool.

620
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,520
OK, let's let's follow that
through then.

621
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,720
So he's received that that
authority, he he then sets up

622
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,400
the church and roughly how many
members were there when he first

623
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,080
started.
Do you have a counter?

624
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,160
I don't have an exact count.
It was.

625
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,840
It was roughly two 5300
something like that it was.

626
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,800
That's not a bad group to start
with.

627
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,240
I mean, it was a yeah, it was,
yeah.

628
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:19,080
All I remember is going there
for the first time and thing was

629
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,960
just packed.
Holy cow.

630
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,400
So you get the assembly hall and
is is the temple in the assembly

631
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,440
hall as well.
That's well that we call that,

632
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,840
Yeah, that's our endowment
house.

633
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,880
OK, very cool.
Now were vicarious work for the

634
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,960
Dead perform there as well,
yeah.

635
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:41,680
Cool.
OK.

636
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,440
No that all the ordinances.
That makes a lot of sense.

637
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,960
So is, is there a missionary
program where missionaries sent

638
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,320
out at that point or anything?
Yeah, they were.

639
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,160
The Apostles went out throughout
the nation and to England and

640
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,840
other places to preach the
gospel.

641
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,440
Holy Cow and And what were these
like 2 year missions or five

642
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,040
year missions or what?
What were they?

643
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,160
They weren't that long.
They were just a matter of, I

644
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,240
believe, a month, few weeks or
something like that.

645
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,920
They went out there specifically
to anoint particular areas, you

646
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:24,080
know, that would be places for
people to gather eventually.

647
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,920
The place of the Gathering was
always going to be here in

648
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,720
Manti.
OK, all right.

649
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,040
I've been done plenty of work up
there.

650
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,760
It's a really cool area.
I could see why someone would

651
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,800
choose that area for sure or or
have the direction place there.

652
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,840
So do you guys experience a lot
of growth right away?

653
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,920
Back then, yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah, at that point.

654
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:54,480
But there was also people with
their different perceptions that

655
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,960
begin to also fall away.
As well, you know, people came

656
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:04,560
expecting to see Jesus and they
fell away because, you know,

657
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:10,200
their paradigms weren't mad and
gotcha.

658
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,640
Yeah, no, it it happens all the
time in the main church, as well

659
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,920
as fundamentalist sex.
There's always people.

660
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,160
Come with their own ideas and
their own agendas and they think

661
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,400
that and all that things are
going to happen to the way they

662
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,200
think and.
Sometimes they just don't, you

663
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,040
know, I mean, you look at the
the Millerites, you know the

664
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,080
great disappointment.
They believed that Jesus was

665
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:42,240
going to come in 1844 and sort
of ironic that Joseph Smith

666
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:43,840
happened to be in the
neighborhood at the time.

667
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:52,240
So people made fun of them for.
You know, I hear preachers, even

668
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:55,040
to this day, making fun of them
for all They sold all their

669
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,040
stuff, you know and believe that
Jesus was coming and stuff like

670
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,240
that.
And there's never a wrong time

671
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:08,000
to dedicate yourself to the Lord
and to consecrate yourself and

672
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,200
to rid yourself of the things of
this world.

673
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:12,920
There's never a wrong time to do
that.

674
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,120
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.

675
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:21,200
OK.
So as time goes along, do does

676
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,040
it start to kind of have that
pattern of like elders quorum

677
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,840
and and high priest group and
and all that other stuff?

678
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,480
Does it, does it look kind of
like the LDS church only maybe

679
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,360
100 years previous so to speak
at that point?

680
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,600
Yeah, I kind of like we had our
elders quorum meetings and and

681
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,600
women's society and you know I
went to the quorum of the 12

682
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:50,800
meetings and so, yeah.
Yeah, in some respects.

683
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:57,000
But then in other respects there
were things that were radically

684
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,600
different, you know, because
there were two divisions of the

685
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,360
church, the temporal church and
the eternal church.

686
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,200
The Temporal Church is the true
and living church.

687
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,040
It's like the LDS Church, that's
a temporal church.

688
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,840
The only purpose of a temporal
church is to prepare people to

689
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,840
enter into the eternal church,
which is governed by the Church

690
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:24,720
of the first born.
So anyways that was that was

691
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:27,920
radically different than you
know, obviously the LDS church.

692
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,960
And then of course, you know,
when we had our meetings, we met

693
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,440
in the robes, in the charter
prayer and.

694
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,080
You know, on a given occasion we
would have a solemn assembly and

695
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,040
things like that, where we would
present to the Lord the work

696
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,440
that we had done.
You know, type of learning,

697
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:48,560
right.
I get you.

698
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:56,040
So as time goes along what kind
of things do you see that really

699
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:01,320
kind of cause in in in all of
our faith journeys?

700
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,840
I think there are times that
that things are really good.

701
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,080
You're on some of those
spiritual highs, right?

702
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:11,520
And then the mundane sets in,
right?

703
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,920
I don't care who you are there.
I think we all go through that

704
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,840
path that that time where it's
like crap, It's time to go to

705
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,640
church, right?
So you get up not 'cause you're

706
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:27,080
necessarily enthused to do it,
but because you feel like you're

707
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,280
committed now, right?
What?

708
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,480
What was it that that kept you
committed all the all these

709
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,240
years to to the church?
I mean, he must have had some

710
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:39,320
sort of teachings or something
that really resonated with you.

711
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,560
Yeah, I don't.
We, I didn't.

712
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:48,560
There wasn't a time that that I
ever had where I didn't feel

713
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,920
motivated and wanting to go to
learn more because we were

714
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,960
always you know.
Told to go and get revelation

715
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,480
about some of the things that
would be presented next week in

716
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,560
the church.
And so we were always fed.

717
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,880
There was never a time that we,
you know, at least in my own

718
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,400
experience, that I did not feel
the driving motivation of the

719
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:19,720
Spirit, you know, to do the
things that we were asked to do.

720
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:22,800
Very cool.
What were some of the early

721
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,320
challenges you feel like?
The, the, OR maybe even

722
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,960
challenges all the way through
that, that maybe the TLC faced

723
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,680
with being a a fundamentalist
church out in the open.

724
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,960
Well, I mean, obviously we were.
We met up with prejudice from

725
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,840
the LDS people that lived in the
area.

726
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,800
But that wasn't, you know, that
didn't bother me too much.

727
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:55,320
Mostly it was the.
Sometimes the things that went

728
00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:01,280
on between people within the
church where you know, somebody

729
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,520
wasn't considerate or something
like that and gotcha, gotcha,

730
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:14,960
how was he able to manage that
much growth that quickly, right.

731
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,280
It's it's one of those things
where where growth can be both a

732
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,360
a blessing and a curse, right?
Because a blessing when there's

733
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:26,680
more people there willing to do
the work, but now you have more

734
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,440
personalities to contend with.
How?

735
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,840
How was he able to manage a lot
of that?

736
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,400
I don't know, because I couldn't
have to be quite honest.

737
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,480
He kept us engaged, I mean.
We always had, we always had a

738
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,560
mission and a fixed goal each
week.

739
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:56,640
And you know to accomplish as
far as hey, let's go study this,

740
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:01,360
let's, you know, let's look in
Gileadi's work of Isaiah and

741
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,400
let's let's look into this and
let's go get some revelation and

742
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:11,440
let's talk about it next week.
And to listen to him preach was

743
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,240
like nothing else.
You cannot.

744
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,960
I cannot describe what it was
like to listen to him open the

745
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:23,040
scriptures and begin to expound
things like Isaiah, you know,

746
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,360
and our Book of Mormon Studies
and things like that.

747
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,400
Really.
So what was it?

748
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:35,480
Just just the insights that he
carried with him because.

749
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,040
That kind of, he said, you know,
when he was reading the Book of

750
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,320
Mormon, it was like as if he had
already lived it.

751
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,120
He did see it clearly in his
mind.

752
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,840
And so, and Isaiah was his
particular favorite thing to go

753
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,840
through.
It was, you know, it was a

754
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,360
little bit of a challenge for
the members, you know, to wrap

755
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,160
our heads around.
It was it was a lot easier for

756
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:03,600
him.
But you know, we caught on

757
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:10,240
gotcha, gotcha.
And so along with that, what was

758
00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:12,480
his leadership style like?
Right?

759
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,080
Because it can vary wildly from
group to group, right.

760
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:21,280
Sometimes there's, you know,
especially when there's one guy

761
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,760
in charge, right?
Sometimes that guy is Warren

762
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,440
Jeffs, right?
That is just a horror show.

763
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,400
Other times, they are guys who
just love their people and

764
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,840
they're trying the darndest they
can for their people.

765
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,320
So.
So what was his leadership style

766
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,320
like in terms of his thrust?
Was it was it highly controlled?

767
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,280
Do you feel or do you feel like
it was more like, you know,

768
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,720
we're going to do the best we
can in teaching good principles

769
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,120
and then hopefully everything
works out from there?

770
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:58,800
It would teach us the principles
and let us govern ourselves.

771
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:04,600
And, you know, it's not like you
couldn't see things that were

772
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,520
going on that people were doing
that weren't.

773
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:10,840
Quite right.
But a lot of times he would give

774
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:17,720
them quite a lot of latitude
that would give them time to

775
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:21,920
figure out, you know, what they
should be doing and what they

776
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:27,080
should not be doing.
And I think he was very

777
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:33,400
merciful.
And things that this episode of

778
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,360
the podcast is brought to you by
Deseret flag.com.

779
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,560
I've said this before and I
really mean it.

780
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,200
Mormonism isn't just a religion,
it's a culture.

781
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,280
As such, it has its own
vernacular and practices, but

782
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,040
also its own symbols.
And those symbols become even

783
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,320
more important and prominent
when you look back into our

784
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,120
history.
Perhaps one of the most

785
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,080
recognizable symbols of
Mormonism is the Deseret flag.

786
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,680
This is the flag that I use as
cover art in this podcast.

787
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,080
This was also used for a good
chunk of time during the Pioneer

788
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,760
era in Utah.
Now today we have people who

789
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,760
want to replace the existing
Utah flag with some other

790
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,800
progressive monstrosity.
Well, I think it's damp past

791
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,480
time that we start pushing back
here a little bit in Utah.

792
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,560
Our friends at Defending Utah
are here to help you with that.

793
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,960
Now.
If you go to deseretflag.com,

794
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,680
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Deseret State flag.

795
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,280
It's time here that we start
making ourselves known and join

796
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,120
the resistance against those who
seek to rewrite our state's

797
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,640
history.
Go to deseretflag.com or check

798
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,280
out the link in this episode's
page, Show Notes and get yours

799
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,280
today.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

800
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,160
Renegade Podcast?
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801
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,560
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803
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804
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,960
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805
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806
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807
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,000
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808
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,880
Finally, for those who want to
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809
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810
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:08,600
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811
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,720
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812
00:51:11,720 --> 00:51:13,800
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You will also get exclusive

813
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,560
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814
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,040
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815
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,920
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Go to Patreon today and get your

816
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,800
exclusive content.
A lesser person probably would

817
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,360
have come down pretty hard on
you gave him a little bit more

818
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:33,040
time, but when it did come time
to bring down the hammer, it did

819
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:40,760
come down.
OK, all right with and and again

820
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,760
if this is something that that
you don't feel like you want to

821
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:50,320
share, I totally get it.
But at least for me, some of the

822
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:57,240
hallmarks of leader centered
control that always concerned me

823
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:03,920
was how was marriages regulated?
I guess, right?

824
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:08,480
Was there any of the stuff you
ever saw where, like families

825
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:13,160
were rearranged or, you know,
families broken apart or

826
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,640
anything like that by leadership
and be reassigned?

827
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,160
Not by the leadership to by
their own revelation.

828
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:25,920
I've seen them do that before.
We came a little bit more, but

829
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,120
by the time we got here at 97,
things seem to have normalized.

830
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:40,080
And so yeah, it was, it was
basically by revelation from the

831
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,320
people themselves.
James never told anybody.

832
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,280
You know that, OK, you got to
marry this person or you got to

833
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:46,600
marry that person.
He didn't.

834
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:48,720
He didn't get involved with
that.

835
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,400
Everybody would just simply be
responsible to receive the

836
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,360
revelation on their own, you
know?

837
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,760
And then of course, they would
present it to him and say, hey,

838
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:58,800
you know, this is a revelation
I've got.

839
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,480
And he'd go and pray about it,
OK, Sounds good, Do it.

840
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:10,280
And sometimes people would do
things that I think weren't

841
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:15,360
necessarily.
The best, the best things or the

842
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,400
wisest things.
But he would let him go ahead

843
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,360
and do it, you know, to let them
gain a little bit of experience,

844
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,440
I guess.
So.

845
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,360
Gotcha.
So he always respected their

846
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,920
agents.
He did OK, perfect.

847
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:36,160
Yeah, that was that to me is
always kind of a red flag.

848
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,280
When that sort of family
planning starts cropping up.

849
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:41,880
I get, I always get a little bit
nervous.

850
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,080
Yeah, I was, you know, before I
came into the gathering.

851
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,800
I was afraid of that sort of
thing potentially happening

852
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,600
because I had heard about it
happening in other groups.

853
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,320
But I'm telling you that that
didn't happen here.

854
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:01,040
That's awesome.
Yeah, that's that's awesome.

855
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,800
When when you would send
missionaries out and they would

856
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,960
start the that effort to
gathering people in, were they

857
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,000
four?
Were they regimented?

858
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,920
Like, I remember in 95 when I
joined the LDS church, it was

859
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,360
like pamphlets, right?
It was very regimented.

860
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,560
Is that how that went?
Or did did you guys find that

861
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,520
there were people who just came
to you with questions and then

862
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,920
your answers resonated with them
and then they would bring them

863
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,240
in?
Well, when the when the apostles

864
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:35,680
would go out, you know, they
would just preach to whoever

865
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,000
that they come in contact with
and.

866
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,440
They didn't really, I don't you
know, they had pamphlets at the

867
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,120
time, whether or not they really
used it and those those apostles

868
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,280
knew their scriptures really
well.

869
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,080
And so I don't think they had to
rely on a prop.

870
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:56,240
They were just simply able to go
and testify and let the chips

871
00:54:56,240 --> 00:55:00,320
fall where they may.
Now as far as you know, later on

872
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:06,600
when the when the apostles were
brought back, then we use the

873
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,920
website.
To reach people the TLC website

874
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:18,840
kind of like what we have here
which the is now tlcfaith.org

875
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:25,120
and a lot of the things that
were that were on that iteration

876
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,920
of the website or on this one as
well.

877
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:32,440
So we use that as a as a
missionary tool to bring people

878
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,000
in.
And then a lot of it was by word

879
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,560
of mouth.
People would say, hey, you know,

880
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,480
I've.
I know this person.

881
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,600
People all the way up in Canada.
Hey, I know.

882
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:43,400
I knew that guy would came down
here and joined the the TLC.

883
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,480
Tell me a little bit more about
what they believe you know So

884
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,160
gotcha.
It was a lot of word of mouth,

885
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:55,440
gotcha and so.
So now let's move, move kind of

886
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,720
farther down the storyline here
a little bit.

887
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:05,440
So let's see, formed in 94, so
that was 30 years ago, will be

888
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:12,040
30 years ago this year.
How long, how long before Jim

889
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,520
eventually passes away?
And is there anything in that

890
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:20,640
time frame from 94 until he
passes away that's notable

891
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,240
within, within the history of
the church that you want to go

892
00:56:23,240 --> 00:56:33,320
over?
Yeah, we were doing a lot of

893
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,920
temple work because we were
preparing for the coming of the

894
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,520
Lord.
And so that was the big push is

895
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:45,120
to do temple work and to get as
many of our relatives sealed to

896
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:53,360
us as we could.
You know, So as you know, he

897
00:56:53,360 --> 00:57:01,360
passed away and. 2013 so right.
94 to 2013 is when you know he

898
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,520
was part of the church and so
good deal.

899
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:10,000
So so nothing other than and
then and I won't say anything

900
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:14,200
else of note because Temple
works pretty important, but no

901
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,120
shake UPS anything like that of
note that would.

902
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,880
Oh, there was people that left,
you know, here and there.

903
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:24,680
Yeah, sure.
And had their gripes that their

904
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:27,560
expectations weren't met.
Yeah, there were.

905
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,480
There were times the church was
shook.

906
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:36,560
Lots of times.
OK, all right, what?

907
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,720
What does Jim pass away from?
Just old age or?

908
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:45,200
Heart attack, Heart attack.
OK, so at the time of his

909
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:49,160
passing, what happens to
leadership at that point?

910
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:51,920
Who?
Who does the Quorum of the 12

911
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:56,680
step up and begin administering
the affairs of the Church from a

912
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:00,280
quorum setting?
We didn't really change anything

913
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,440
at that point.
The Quorum of the 12 continue to

914
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:08,120
function as they were before.
You know, our our function as

915
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:12,680
the Quorum of the 12 was
exterior to the exterior to the

916
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,160
church as mission, you know as
right.

917
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:19,280
Just like come and say yeah.
As apostles of the Lord Jesus

918
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:26,480
Christ and you know, of course
we still had a Bishop who

919
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,800
governed the temporal Church.
But the king and priest, which

920
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:34,160
was James of the Eternal Church,
which is the Church of the first

921
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:39,360
born, did not have a successor.
So does that?

922
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,600
Did that part of the church
continue to function then?

923
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,240
Yeah, it's, it continued to
function with the Quorum of the

924
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:52,400
12.
And but as far as there being a

925
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:57,200
presiding king and priest over
the Eternal Church, it still

926
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:02,640
remained as James, that it, it
wasn't passed down to anyone.

927
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,000
OK, All right.
So the Quorum of the 12 just

928
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:11,680
stepped in to kind of, I won't
say fill that role, but but kind

929
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:15,160
of make sure that work continues
on in the in the eternal church

930
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:19,400
as you as you put it.
Yeah, mostly in the form of the

931
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,800
work for the dead at that point.
OK, you know, we weren't.

932
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,080
By that time, we weren't doing
external missionary work, OK?

933
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,760
We have kind of come, we have
come back in because the Lord

934
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,040
revealed to us that the day of
the Gentile or the gathering in

935
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:40,960
of the Gentile had finished.
OK, so can can can people still

936
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:42,720
join the church then?
Or is that?

937
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,440
Yeah, they still can.
OK.

938
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:51,000
So, but as far as those who
would be sealed by the law of

939
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,880
adoption to James, obviously
that's not an option anymore,

940
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,840
right, because it's not here.
But you can be sealed by the law

941
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:02,320
of adoption to a king and a
priest, which would be a member

942
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,560
of the Quorum of the 12 or
anybody else in the Church of

943
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,120
the First Born.
Gotcha.

944
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:11,920
Gotcha.
OK, so after James passes away

945
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:20,080
in, excuse me, Jim passes away
in in 2013 and and and again I

946
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,440
want to be gentle here, there's
a schism that happens right

947
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:28,680
somewhere in between 2013 today.
Does that essentially lob the

948
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,320
TLC in half?
What what happens there?

949
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:41,320
No, it was a basically.
And I guess I want to be gentle

950
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:47,840
too, because I still want to
give, you know, some room for

951
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:50,880
those in the, what we call the
main body of the church.

952
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:56,480
See, there was the division was
basically 5 verses 50.

953
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:04,400
So it was one 110th of the
church, you know, that was

954
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:10,000
opposed?
By the larger group for a few

955
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:17,080
reasons that centered around the
Troy or prayer or lack of it,

956
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:25,320
lack of other things, and the
temple garment.

957
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:31,120
The one thing that will
distinguish the smaller group

958
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,880
for from the larger group is the
larger group no longer wears A

959
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:41,280
priesthood garment.
So that created a pretty

960
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:47,680
immediate division within the
Church is when they didn't

961
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:53,600
approve of those of us who
decided to wear our garments or

962
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:58,480
priesthood garments.
So, and all of us, you know,

963
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:02,520
like when Joseph had before he
went to the martyrdom.

964
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:09,240
To be fair, he had removed his
garments, as well as Hiram and

965
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:12,600
John Taylor.
I think Willard Richards didn't

966
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:16,840
want to, didn't have to, Joseph
said.

967
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:18,960
You know, if we have these on,
they can't kill us.

968
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:24,520
And so we all had the under.
We had received the revelation

969
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:27,440
to temporarily remove our
garments.

970
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,720
Now in some people's minds it
was permanent, but in our minds

971
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:35,680
it was not.
And so when God revealed to us

972
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:41,360
to put ours back on, well, that
pretty much became a a straw

973
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,640
that broke the camel's back.
Gotcha.

974
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:45,200
Gotcha.
And so did.

975
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:50,080
I'm just trying to understand
here, Chris, was that the

976
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,600
majority of the group that
decided to leave their garments

977
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:57,920
off or was that the minority?
They made the majority do not

978
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,640
wear garments.
OK, All right, all right.

979
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:06,440
And and you said there was a
revelation to take him off for a

980
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,680
time.
Was that a family revelation or

981
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,360
did that come down from from
leadership?

982
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:18,400
Well, it was a revelation
submitted by a member of the the

983
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:24,000
Eternal Church and then it was
submitted to James course for

984
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,560
his approval and then he
submitted it to the church and

985
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:30,240
he said go home, pray on it and
come back and let me know.

986
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:36,880
You know, because they had this,
these, this family had received

987
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,240
revelation that God said it's
time for us to remove our

988
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:43,880
garments.
And so we all went home and

989
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,440
prayed about it and we got the
revelation, OK, it's time to

990
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:51,320
take our garments off.
And as it happened, James died

991
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:55,760
within about a month after that.
And.

992
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:02,480
So I'm pretty convinced that the
removal of the garment leads to

993
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:09,120
death.
I couldn't.

994
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:10,960
You can't escape that fact, you
know.

995
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,480
I mean, you're told in the
endowment you wear this

996
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:16,600
throughout your life, you know,
until you've finished your work

997
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:20,680
here on Earth.
And there was a doctrinal reason

998
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:24,320
to do it, to remove it.
But there's also a doctrinal

999
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:29,400
reason to put it back on.
Yeah, I have.

1000
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:37,000
I wear the the long garment and
and and yeah, I can't imagine

1001
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,960
not having it now, kind of to
it.

1002
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:47,120
If it's not too bold, what was
the reasoning behind the idea to

1003
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:48,840
take him off?
I understand it was kind of a

1004
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:50,760
revelation, but where'd that
come from?

1005
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:55,160
I think that Joseph obviously
had his, his reasons for taking

1006
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:58,920
his off, but but what what
happened there in the TLC with

1007
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:02,560
that?
It was because we were preparing

1008
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:04,720
for a transition to the
terrestrial order.

1009
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:09,600
OK, All right, I got you.
OK.

1010
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:18,760
So that split occurs and it
sounds, it sounds like you put

1011
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:21,080
your garments back on.
Is that correct or OK?

1012
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:27,600
Yeah, July the, July the 4th.
2016 I put mine back on and my

1013
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:35,880
wife and and then in August the
what did I did I say July the

1014
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:40,680
4th, July the 4th put them on
August the 16th which was also

1015
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,720
coincidentally the 9th of off
which is when the when the Jews

1016
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:48,640
were kicked out of the temple we
were kicked out there were five

1017
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:56,560
of us that said you know.
Well, this is what God revealed

1018
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:58,240
to us.
This is what he said.

1019
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:03,160
You know, our church has always
been governed that the eternal

1020
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:07,120
churches governed, as our
prophet told us, by revelation,

1021
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:12,120
and it was by revelation that we
received the revelation to do

1022
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:15,680
that, to put these garments on.
OK.

1023
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:18,000
And is it just the five of you
now?

1024
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,440
Well, one has died and couple of
them went back to their

1025
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:26,480
families.
So really, it's now down to just

1026
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:30,840
myself and my wife and one other
Who's here?

1027
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:32,280
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

1028
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:35,120
And my son.
But he's not, you know it's not

1029
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:36,680
in doubt, right?
Too young?

1030
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,320
So are you.
Are you guys still in fellowship

1031
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:47,040
with with the TLC then, or?
We try to be, but they we're not

1032
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:49,240
allowed to go.
Into their building.

1033
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:51,800
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

1034
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:56,560
So, so now, now you just worship
at home sort of a thing then,

1035
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:57,240
huh?
Right.

1036
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,520
Gotcha.
Tim 4, Tim 4, I'm.

1037
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:01,760
I'm with you.
I'm following you now.

1038
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:04,760
I apologize if this is bringing
up any bad stuff.

1039
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:06,400
I don't.
Didn't mean it to do that.

1040
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:11,120
That's OK, we, you know, it's
not like, you know, when Jesus

1041
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:14,760
said, you know, before his he
was, he was crucified, he told

1042
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:16,080
the disciples.
Hey.

1043
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:18,400
Now they're going to miss hand.
They're going to mistreat you

1044
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:23,080
and they're going to, you know,
they're going to do things to

1045
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:24,400
you.
So don't be surprised when they

1046
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:25,600
do it.
They're going to think they're

1047
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:32,440
doing a lot of service.
So I'm not surprised.

1048
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:34,800
Sure I got you.
I got you.

1049
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:40,440
So right now as so and and I'm
trying to sort this all out and

1050
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:44,120
I apologize.
So did you retain the the the

1051
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:48,360
name of the church TLC or did
that go with the group now that?

1052
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,440
Well, we were.
We just kept the name.

1053
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:56,120
As we saw we've always been the
the TLC, the true and living

1054
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,120
Church of Jesus Christ, the
Saints of last days.

1055
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,880
One of the apostles, I guess,
had had.

1056
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:12,360
That had contacted me, had a
little dispute with me and said

1057
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:18,640
that, well, our church name was
changed, you know, because the

1058
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:21,600
church incorporated a number of
years ago.

1059
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:26,479
And so they changed it to the
true and living church and

1060
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:30,520
lopped off the of Jesus Christ,
True and living Church of Jesus

1061
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:32,040
Christ.
And they lopped off of Saints of

1062
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:36,640
the last days.
And it was just simply.

1063
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:39,560
That was part of the
incorporation of the church, of

1064
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:41,640
course.
You know, James had told us

1065
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,200
before that this church would
never be incorporated, that this

1066
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,840
is an example of one of those
decisions that the people

1067
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:53,680
wanted.
But he said, OK, go ahead and do

1068
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:55,920
it.
Let's see what happens.

1069
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:59,640
Yeah.
So he, he did very much what

1070
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:02,359
what Joseph and and Brigham did
in a lot of ways.

1071
01:09:02,359 --> 01:09:05,120
Like if you want this, you can
have it, but it won't.

1072
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,240
You want to go?
Right.

1073
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:11,600
And the that sort of thing
happened quite a bit, you know,

1074
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:14,479
because we had you know,
received the revelation that we

1075
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:19,479
would leave our employment and
and start you know, working in

1076
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:22,760
the Kingdom and stuff like that.
And so all of us left our

1077
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:31,359
employment, including us and and
then people received revelation

1078
01:09:31,359 --> 01:09:36,080
that they should go back to work
and and so James said OK.

1079
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:40,279
Go ahead and go back to work.
If that's what the revelation

1080
01:09:40,279 --> 01:09:44,680
was, go ahead and do it.
But let's see how you do.

1081
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:47,840
Will you continue in praying in
the chore of prayer?

1082
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:50,680
Will you continue in receiving
revelation?

1083
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,920
Will you continue doing the
other things that you were

1084
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:58,000
taught to do, even though you're
in the world doing those sorts

1085
01:09:58,000 --> 01:09:59,560
of things?
I'm not going to condemn you for

1086
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:04,400
it, but let's just see if you
can maintain your spirituality.

1087
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:08,160
While you're doing that at the
same time, kind of one of those

1088
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:10,880
things where you can't have one
foot in Zion and another in

1089
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:12,400
Babylon.
Yeah, yeah.

1090
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:17,560
Or serve 2 masters if you will.
Yeah, so he wouldn't condemn

1091
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:20,480
anybody for doing it.
He just said, let's just see how

1092
01:10:20,480 --> 01:10:23,560
you do.
Gotcha, gotcha.

1093
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:28,160
So now we have these, these two
groups.

1094
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:37,880
There's there's the True and
Living Church, the one you're a

1095
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:39,560
part of.
I I'm blanking on the name.

1096
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:42,360
Help me Chris.
The true and living Church of

1097
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:45,360
Jesus Christ of Saints of the
last days, which is the name you

1098
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:47,600
know when we would do work for
the dead, the ordinances for the

1099
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:51,280
dead, they were made members of
the true and living Church of

1100
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:52,600
Jesus Christ, the Saints of the
last days.

1101
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,080
Which is why I'm like, I'm not
going to change it because all

1102
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:59,240
of my family, relatives are are
sealed in that church by that

1103
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:02,400
church is in the name of that
church not going to change it to

1104
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:05,560
the incorporated church's name.
Not going to do that and and

1105
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:08,040
then we'll just say the
incorporated church passing.

1106
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:10,120
No judgments.
It's just a way for me to keep

1107
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:11,880
it.
Right, right.

1108
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:15,600
So, So with the incorporated
church, are they are they still

1109
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:17,280
performing temple work over
there?

1110
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:22,080
No, OK.
And the only reason why I know

1111
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:26,480
that is because we had wires
over the.

1112
01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:30,720
Inside of the building.
And you could see from outside

1113
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:33,120
that they had taken all those
down, all the veils that were in

1114
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:35,120
the assembly hall.
They're gone.

1115
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:40,320
So you can, you can.
And they well, yeah, they began

1116
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:43,120
to have public meetings and
things like that and oh wow.

1117
01:11:43,480 --> 01:11:47,680
That that was kind of the little
bit of the rift too, because we

1118
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:52,600
had an objection, because we in
our temple, we didn't allow

1119
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:57,280
people to come into our church
meetings that were not baptized

1120
01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:59,160
members.
And they wanted to bring

1121
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:02,480
investigators into our assembly
hall, which was our temple.

1122
01:12:02,480 --> 01:12:06,960
And we said no.
And so that created quite a rift

1123
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:12,840
because, you know, it's
understandable people want to

1124
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:16,400
bring more people into the
church, but you got to do it the

1125
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:20,040
right way.
We had a a red brick store still

1126
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:22,400
to have meetings with them
there.

1127
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:24,840
So there was a provision for it,
right?

1128
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:27,840
It's not like you were turning
people away, it was just.

1129
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:29,400
We weren't.
No, we weren't turning people

1130
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:31,000
away.
We just said, yeah, this is

1131
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:32,920
just.
We said this is our this is our

1132
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:35,200
holy place.
You can't.

1133
01:12:35,480 --> 01:12:37,840
You can bring them over there,
but you can't bring them here,

1134
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:39,840
right?
Right.

1135
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:41,160
Yeah.
So you weren't turning anyone

1136
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:42,720
away.
You were just saying this is

1137
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:44,920
sacred space that's reserved
for.

1138
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:48,080
Exactly.
And I and I, you know the LDS

1139
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:50,760
Church.
The LDS church, you know, they

1140
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:53,480
have the same standards, too.
You can't just walk in and say,

1141
01:12:53,480 --> 01:12:55,640
hey, I want to hear the six
discussions in the Celestial

1142
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:58,560
room, you know, right, right.
It's not going to happen.

1143
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:06,680
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
OK, so is is plural Marriage was

1144
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:12,680
obviously practiced within the
TLC back when it was 11 unit.

1145
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:16,880
Right.
Is it still practiced in the

1146
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:21,280
incorporated church?
It is OK, all right, perfect.

1147
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:24,200
And I assume you have no issues
with plural marriage yourself.

1148
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:27,040
No, OK.
All right, no, we would.

1149
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:31,560
We have no problem.
We fully embrace it even though

1150
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,160
we're not currently living it,
sure.

1151
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:43,920
And then as far as like unique
tenants of of the faith both you

1152
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,960
know probably more or less when
you were together as as one

1153
01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:49,840
unit.
What were some of the things

1154
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:56,080
that were unique to the TLC that
that may be a a run-of-the-mill

1155
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:59,400
latter day St. other than like
Adam, God and curse of Cain.

1156
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:04,000
Were there any other distinct
doctrines that you can think of

1157
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:09,240
that would would strike someone
as different or or unfamiliar

1158
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,360
with?
Yeah, multiple mortal

1159
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:13,400
probations.
Or in other words,

1160
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:17,120
reincarnation, OK?
Yeah, that was.

1161
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:22,760
One of those ones that the LDS
people would object to that we,

1162
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:27,120
you know, that we firmly believe
in that we've lived many lives.

1163
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:32,320
And one of the reasons why Jesus
says whom do you say that I am

1164
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:38,800
was because he believed, you
know, the the Jews back then.

1165
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:41,760
They understood it, you know,
otherwise why would they?

1166
01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:45,600
Why would Herod say he's John
the Baptist, whom I have

1167
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:48,160
beheaded?
They all knew that he was the

1168
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:52,000
son of Mary.
They all knew, you know, in fact

1169
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:54,280
all the Jews at the time They
said, well, isn't Joseph his

1170
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,960
father?
And here Herod is saying, isn't

1171
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:00,400
this the one that I beheaded?
And he's back from the dead.

1172
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:04,440
They understood multiple mortal
probations.

1173
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:09,480
This isn't anything new, so do
you mind getting into that

1174
01:15:09,480 --> 01:15:11,360
doctrine just a little bit while
I got you?

1175
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:14,360
Because I've never talked about
it on the podcast before.

1176
01:15:14,440 --> 01:15:15,840
OK.
Hey, sure.

1177
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:21,920
OK.
So because here here's one of

1178
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:26,600
the things I wonder about on
this if, if if that is true, if

1179
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:31,680
multiple mortal probations
reincarnation is is true, then

1180
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:35,560
how do we explain sealing
covenants being sealed to

1181
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:39,080
somebody forever?
Now, are are you saying that

1182
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:44,640
that you always come back and
find that same person again, or?

1183
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:46,320
OK.
All right.

1184
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:49,280
So you kind of tend to move
along and your family lines kind

1185
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:52,360
of like school fish.
OK, All right.

1186
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:55,040
So it's not like there will be a
bunch of sorting out that has to

1187
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:59,320
be done with that, and in the
end you're you're always

1188
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:01,240
essentially sealed to the same
person.

1189
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:06,880
Well, to the same person or
person.

1190
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:09,520
Well, when you're talking about
plural marriage, I mean, you're

1191
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,160
talking to persons, right?
Persons.

1192
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:17,520
But I guess what I'm asking is,
is that when you come back you

1193
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,040
you always find your spouse
again, right?

1194
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:27,600
Or spouses, if you're a man.
You'll find them whether or not

1195
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:30,920
you'll marry them at the time.
You may or may not.

1196
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:33,480
Or they might be your relative
or your sister or something like

1197
01:16:33,480 --> 01:16:37,640
that.
Or it just depends.

1198
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:42,280
OK, you know, one way or
another, One way or another?

1199
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:46,680
You're going to be in the
vicinity of that person.

1200
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,080
You'll go through.
You'll go through, you know,

1201
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:54,160
that generation together.
You know, that's why the

1202
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:56,840
Prophets talk about this is the
wicked generation.

1203
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,640
He's talking about a group of
people that move along the

1204
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:05,560
timeline together as a family.
OK, all right.

1205
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:09,040
So it's not always guaranteed
that you'll be husband and wife

1206
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:11,960
in whatever life you're in.
Maybe not.

1207
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:18,520
OK, all right.
And then is, is this just part

1208
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:21,880
of how you see eternal
progression working?

1209
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:25,960
Is is part of this, these
multiple probations where it is

1210
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:28,760
you essentially come back until
you get it right.

1211
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:30,960
Is that kind of the idea?
It is.

1212
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:34,800
It's exactly what it is.
Heber Kimball spent a lot of

1213
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:39,560
time talking about the parable
of the Potter where a a vessel

1214
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:43,320
would be made.
Over so many iterations into a

1215
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:47,400
vessel of honor, you know, at
one point it would become kind

1216
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:48,920
of snappish.
I think it's the way the

1217
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,960
scriptures describe it.
And so the Potter takes it and

1218
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:56,280
throws it into the mill to be
ground up and to come back and

1219
01:17:56,280 --> 01:17:59,000
to be a little bit more passive
in the hands of the Potter.

1220
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:05,160
So yeah, as far as the number of
iterations a person has to go

1221
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:07,360
through, it depends on how long
it takes a person to overcome

1222
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:10,200
the things of this world.
You know, the more you gain

1223
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:13,280
attachments to the thing of this
work, to the things of this

1224
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:15,880
world, the more you're going to
be reprobated.

1225
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:20,560
You know, these earthly
attachments is what holds you

1226
01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:25,960
here eventually, when you can
cut all those ties and triumph

1227
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:29,080
over all things, like the Lord
Jesus Christ had did.

1228
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:34,080
By the time that he said, I have
fear not, I have overcome the

1229
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:37,920
world.
Then you can move on.

1230
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:41,960
And gain your Kingdom, you know,
as an atom on another world.

1231
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:49,240
OK, so let me ask you this about
this doctrine.

1232
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:53,080
Do you ever know?
Do you ever catch glimpses of

1233
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:55,440
who you were before in a
different?

1234
01:18:56,800 --> 01:18:58,720
Program.
Sure, yeah.

1235
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:02,640
When I was a kid, I knew that I
had fought in World War 2.

1236
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:07,120
I had I don't know how many
dreams of fighting in World War

1237
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:11,280
2.
Every time it ended with me

1238
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:17,440
dying, but I it was very vivid.
I remember fighting against the

1239
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:22,240
Germans and lying in a conduit,
and eventually all I saw was a

1240
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:25,160
flash of light and that was it.
OK, all right.

1241
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:27,760
And then now I'm going to ask
another question.

1242
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:31,440
And and again, if it's too
sacred or whatever, I totally

1243
01:19:31,440 --> 01:19:36,640
understand.
But did did Jim ever, ever talk

1244
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:41,440
about maybe some of his previous
probations?

1245
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:45,240
Did he ever make reference of,
you know, Joseph Smith or

1246
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:48,000
something like that?
Yeah, he had talked about it

1247
01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:51,960
that that he in in in one of his
previous probations.

1248
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:52,920
He was Joseph Smith.
He.

1249
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:55,400
Had talked about things like
that.

1250
01:19:55,400 --> 01:19:58,240
Yeah, OK all.
Right now, the reason why we

1251
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:01,240
don't preach it to people is
because of what I would call the

1252
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:04,520
sin of familiarity, which is
wow.

1253
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:09,280
Isn't that the son of Joseph?
We know him.

1254
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:13,480
How could he say that he has
come from heaven type of idea.

1255
01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:16,440
Gotcha.
When you're that close to

1256
01:20:16,440 --> 01:20:21,520
somebody, it's hard to believe
you know that somebody of that

1257
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:24,720
stature would come back into
probation and be somebody so

1258
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,000
close that you could just, you
know, reach out and touch him.

1259
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:32,080
Gotcha.
So 10 four, no, that makes I I

1260
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:33,560
see where you're coming from on
that.

1261
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:36,240
All right.
Well, thank you for that 'cause

1262
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:39,080
I haven't ever had anyone on to
really talk about that before.

1263
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:42,080
And when you you said that, it
kind of perked my ears up a

1264
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:44,760
little bit.
I was like, oh, we got well,

1265
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,480
it's why David, it's why King
David said, you know that he

1266
01:20:47,480 --> 01:20:50,040
rejoiced that he has.
He would, his soul would not be

1267
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:55,520
left in hell forever because he
too would go through multiple

1268
01:20:55,520 --> 01:21:01,000
probations and he would have to
atone for his own sins.

1269
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:04,840
And that's why, you know, when a
murderer can't be forgiven of

1270
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:06,600
his own sins.
In other words, somebody's not

1271
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:08,720
going to step in and say I'll
pay for that.

1272
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:13,200
Now you have to pay for that.
You have to atone for your own

1273
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:15,480
sin for that.
And David had to atone.

1274
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:19,280
And that's why we see in the,
you know, the priests, when they

1275
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:24,240
go into the temple, the priest
atones for his sin as well as

1276
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:27,800
the sin of his congregation.
Well, David had to atone for his

1277
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:31,400
sin as well as the sin of his
people, you know?

1278
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:37,080
So then what then?
That begs the question here.

1279
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:40,720
What would be the the purpose of
Christ's atonement if we have to

1280
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:46,440
atone for our own sins?
Christ's atonement atones for

1281
01:21:46,440 --> 01:21:51,600
the sins of those who have not
willingly sinned.

1282
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:56,320
If you willingly sin and you
rebel, then you pay for your

1283
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:59,760
own.
But for those that have sinned

1284
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:03,640
ignorantly, the Atonement covers
those sorts of things.

1285
01:22:05,440 --> 01:22:12,320
OK, and forgive me, I'm I'm, I'm
just thinking here, what about

1286
01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:15,040
the term infinite and eternal
atonement?

1287
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:19,440
Infinite.
Wouldn't would essentially be

1288
01:22:19,440 --> 01:22:20,360
just that.
Right.

1289
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:22,600
Forever.
Yeah.

1290
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:24,480
From.
Yeah, right.

1291
01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:31,520
It would cover from, yeah, from
your from that point, from

1292
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:33,800
forward to back.
I can't say from beginning end

1293
01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:36,160
because there is no beginning
and there is no end.

1294
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:38,960
Like what Joseph said, if you
take a ring, you only get a

1295
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:41,120
beginning, end unless you cut it
right.

1296
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:46,080
But OK.
How about any other teachings

1297
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:49,040
that that people would find
unique to the TLC?

1298
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:57,360
Well, they would companion along
with the the concept of multiple

1299
01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:00,520
moral probations, which would be
the condescensions of God.

1300
01:23:01,480 --> 01:23:05,520
In other words, that not only do
his people reprobate, but so

1301
01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:11,360
does God with them that he
himself has been in many

1302
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:13,560
probations and Brigham Young
testified of that.

1303
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:18,280
He said Jesus has been in more
probation or in what did he say

1304
01:23:18,440 --> 01:23:22,240
Jesus has been on been on earth
more times than you have

1305
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:26,520
supposed and then when you get
to the you know Abenadiah that

1306
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:30,800
just flinches it Abenadiah.
When he testifies in Mosiah

1307
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:33,240
chapter 15 he says I would that
you should understand that God

1308
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:38,480
himself would come down among I
can't remember how he said it

1309
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:42,440
and he would atone for the sins
of his people.

1310
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:47,360
In other words, God, who we
already understand is Adam,

1311
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:54,000
would atone for the sins of his
people and he would be rejected

1312
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:57,800
and he would be crucified.
Which is why we see Paul

1313
01:23:57,800 --> 01:24:02,280
referring to Jesus Christ as the
second Adam.

1314
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:05,280
Which is why God said I am the
Alpha and the a Omega.

1315
01:24:05,600 --> 01:24:08,720
I am the beginning and I am the
end, the first and the last.

1316
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:10,840
I am the first.
Now you might as well say it.

1317
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:13,840
Now I'm the 1st I'm the first
Adam and I'm the last at.

1318
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:18,920
OK, this is the condescensions
of God.

1319
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:22,200
OK, And talk about it in second
Nephi.

1320
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:24,760
Sure.
Sure.

1321
01:24:25,160 --> 01:24:29,080
So would would and and I'm just
seeing if I understand correctly

1322
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:32,120
here the theology that that
you're you're talking about

1323
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:36,520
here.
So is is, is it kind of the

1324
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:41,080
understanding that that Adam
came back again as Christ?

1325
01:24:43,440 --> 01:24:45,360
Yep.
So who did?

1326
01:24:45,360 --> 01:24:48,560
Who is it in that Joseph Smith
sees in the First Vision?

1327
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:56,720
That's a good question.
Well, OK, When the first

1328
01:24:57,440 --> 01:25:01,200
personage, as it is written,
pointed to the second personage

1329
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:04,600
and said This is my beloved son,
hear him, Who's the first person

1330
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:10,840
that Joseph Smith talked to
that's recorded in the the first

1331
01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:12,360
vision?
Who was it that he talked to?

1332
01:25:12,480 --> 01:25:16,280
Who went?
Who came to him and told him for

1333
01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:19,280
one where the plates are, and
then came and visited a bunch of

1334
01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:23,080
times of how to make garments.
Would have been Moroni, right?

1335
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:25,440
It was Moroni.
Yeah.

1336
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:29,240
OK, it would have been Mormon
and Moroni.

1337
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:37,080
OK, OK.
And and that's who he saw in the

1338
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:40,880
first vision, the very first
vision he had right now the LDS

1339
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:43,560
Church puts out.
Then he saw Jesus and God the

1340
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:46,680
Father.
Well, that's why I told you

1341
01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:53,120
earlier that the endowment is a
parallel to the First Vision,

1342
01:25:53,720 --> 01:25:57,400
because what is Joseph doing?
He's seeking for further light

1343
01:25:57,400 --> 01:25:59,080
and for messengers from the
Father.

1344
01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:01,160
And who does he send?
The apostles?

1345
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:04,760
Does he come himself?
Does.

1346
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:08,160
Does does Adam's father himself
come?

1347
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:11,720
No, he doesn't.
He sends his messengers, He

1348
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:15,720
sends his servants.
OK, All right.

1349
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:18,040
No.
All right.

1350
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:23,840
Anything else that would be
unique that doesn't tie into

1351
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:30,480
with multiple mortal probations?
No.

1352
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:39,880
OK, no, no, no sweat.
So there there's no longer any

1353
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:43,440
real missionary effort going on
with with the TLC.

1354
01:26:43,440 --> 01:26:45,680
They there's still the the
website and stuff.

1355
01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:48,680
How many people are in the
incorporated church today,

1356
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:50,960
roughly?
Is it still pretty healthy?

1357
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:53,720
No.
There's probably about maybe

1358
01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:59,040
that are members of record,
probably 30.

1359
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:01,320
OK.
All right.

1360
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:05,080
And does that, does that all
kind of happen after Jim passes

1361
01:27:05,080 --> 01:27:06,800
that, that the number whittle
down?

1362
01:27:08,440 --> 01:27:13,360
Yeah, well, it had whittled down
over the years, but it, you

1363
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:17,400
know, it whittled down quite a
bit when he passed away.

1364
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:20,840
Gotcha.
The church basically kind of

1365
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:25,920
went in their own directions.
I gotcha, I gotcha 10 four.

1366
01:27:26,920 --> 01:27:31,240
Well dude, is there anything
that you want to cover that we

1367
01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:34,760
didn't talk about in this?
I can't think of anything now.

1368
01:27:35,080 --> 01:27:42,200
We we covered a lot of ground
yeah honestly the only the the

1369
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:48,080
biggest push the the biggest
point for an apostle is to

1370
01:27:48,080 --> 01:27:51,160
testify if God and who he is.
So I think we've pretty much

1371
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:56,880
covered the ground there.
Other than that, the other

1372
01:27:56,880 --> 01:28:04,800
pushes the ordinances, you know,
because it's the 84th section,

1373
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:07,480
the doctrine come and says
without the ordinances there,

1374
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:11,880
you know, the power of godliness
is not manifest to men in the

1375
01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:12,920
flesh.
And here we are.

1376
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:16,600
We've got the LDS church, you
know, cutting down the

1377
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:19,480
ordinances right and left, you
know, until you don't have,

1378
01:28:19,760 --> 01:28:26,320
until you have nothing left.
And we have how many of the

1379
01:28:26,320 --> 01:28:33,080
fundamentalist churches actively
endowing their members?

1380
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:35,560
You know, the FLDS people, we
got girls that come over here

1381
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:39,720
from the FLDS church.
They don't, you know, they're

1382
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:42,880
like, how old are they?
1920 years old.

1383
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:45,120
They don't have endowments.
They have no prospects for

1384
01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:47,320
getting married.
Parents don't have endowments.

1385
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:49,440
Parents don't have endowments.
They can't.

1386
01:28:49,480 --> 01:28:51,440
You know, well, what do you know
about God?

1387
01:28:51,440 --> 01:28:53,640
They don't know anything.
Right.

1388
01:28:54,800 --> 01:28:59,400
So how much how much light is
left in the world?

1389
01:28:59,960 --> 01:29:02,760
You know, even among
fundamentalists are Mormons.

1390
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:07,600
You know, I I think that there
is a renewed emphasis on temple

1391
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:09,200
work.
I know that there are several

1392
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:14,480
branches of fundamentalism now
that either have temples or are

1393
01:29:14,480 --> 01:29:18,000
in the midst of building,
whether that's in the planning

1394
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:21,360
stages or whatnot.
But I I feel like there's a

1395
01:29:21,360 --> 01:29:27,880
renewed effort being put that
certainly with within.

1396
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:32,040
Kind of the, I always like to
call it, kind of the muster

1397
01:29:32,040 --> 01:29:36,360
lines of of fundamentalism.
There's a renewed push, I I

1398
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:38,840
think, for, but the problem is,
is when they're on a, when

1399
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:41,360
they're on a false premise with
their endowment or their

1400
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:44,920
ordinances.
And if they have ordinances that

1401
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:48,840
are not the way Joseph gave
them, then they're it's a

1402
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:53,560
mockery to God.
So when you say when the way

1403
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:58,280
Joseph gave them, do you think
that those ordinances kind of?

1404
01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:04,640
Were compromised under Brigham
Young's leadership?

1405
01:30:05,080 --> 01:30:08,040
No.
OK, not at all.

1406
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,960
No, because Joseph told Brigham
to organize and systematize the

1407
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:14,000
endowment.
He says we've got it as good as

1408
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:16,800
we can get it right now.
Brigham, I want you to organize

1409
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:18,640
it and systematize it and make
it.

1410
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:24,080
You know, he basically made it
fairly fairly uniform at the

1411
01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:28,240
time.
I I so from what?

1412
01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:30,600
And I did a lot of research on
this.

1413
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:35,320
I dove deep on the temple stuff
because I was like this above.

1414
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:40,040
Almost everything else is so
important to get right as as

1415
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:44,800
I've had the privilege of
looking over a few documents

1416
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:48,760
from a few different places or
asked what iteration are you

1417
01:30:48,760 --> 01:30:52,720
planning on using and hearing
hearing that come back.

1418
01:30:53,360 --> 01:31:00,360
I feel like most of these groups
have have what has to be there

1419
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:04,480
in the correct order.
So I I've been very encouraged

1420
01:31:04,480 --> 01:31:09,480
as I've seen this is and so I I
don't I I think I think the fact

1421
01:31:09,480 --> 01:31:12,560
we live in the age of the
Internet is is a tremendous

1422
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:13,360
blessing.
I do.

1423
01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:16,320
I think there's some pitfalls
that come with it, but there

1424
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:19,560
there's no more secrets.
You can find exactly what was

1425
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:24,080
taken out.
And it can be RE with proper

1426
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:26,320
authority.
So I I feel really good about

1427
01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:32,520
that in just about and I'm not
going to name names, but there's

1428
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:35,320
only one or two that I can think
of off the top of my head as

1429
01:31:35,320 --> 01:31:39,240
I've talked to folks and ran
into them that I would be

1430
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:43,400
suspect on The rest of them, I
feel like, yeah, they they got

1431
01:31:43,400 --> 01:31:44,320
it.
They got it down.

1432
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:46,160
And that's all thanks to the
Internet.

1433
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:49,520
And there are no more secrets
and you can find it everywhere,

1434
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:53,600
yeah?
So, but yeah, awesome.

1435
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:56,760
Well, ma'am, this was great.
I appreciate you coming on.

1436
01:31:57,480 --> 01:31:59,320
Sure.
And glad to be here.

1437
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:02,880
I I tell everybody who's been on
once you've been on once, you

1438
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:05,160
got a standing invitation to
come back on again.

1439
01:32:05,680 --> 01:32:08,880
So if there's any ever, any time
that, you know, you wanted to

1440
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:11,560
update on something or anything
like that give me a buzz.

1441
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:13,000
I'm always here.
Sure.

1442
01:32:13,400 --> 01:32:15,480
Awesome.
Thanks again, Chris.

1443
01:32:15,960 --> 01:32:16,480
You bet.
Thanks.

1444
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:49,840
Bye, everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

1445
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:51,160
Renegade Podcast.