Episide #167: An Examination Of The Nemenhah Record Part 2 W/Justin Francom

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The Savior warned us that in the
last days there would be false

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prophets and false Christs that
would arise to lead the people

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astray.
Now, to ensure that we don't

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become misled, it is important
that we understand the truth so

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well that we can spout a
counterfeit a mile away.

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It is for this reason I want to
do this two-part series on the

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Nimenhall Record.
With that said, last week me and

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Justin Franklin broke down the
Nimenhall Record and explored

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some pretty problematic
teachings found in this alleged

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book of scripture.
Today Justin joins me again as

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we finish our examination of the
Niman Ha record.

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And spoiler alert, we are about
to see where the Niman Ha record

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really disagrees with the Book
of Mormon and other principles

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of the restoration is taught by
the Prophet Joseph Smith.

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Today we cover what the Niman Ha
Record has to say about changing

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the ordinances of baptism,
plural marriage, and some pretty

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damning evidence on timelines
that just don't match up with

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what's already been restored by
the Prophet Joseph Smith through

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the Book of Mormon.
I would ask that you please

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share these episodes with your
family and friends who maybe

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have started to buy into this
record so they might not be

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deceived that much.
Much more on this episode of the

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Mormon Renegade Podcast.
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Click the link in this episode's

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show notes today.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
I want to talk about baptism

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because this is, to me, baptism.
Baptism is really, it's

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fundamental in our Christian
faith as Mormons, right?

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This is the way that you enter
into the straight and narrow

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gate that leads to eternal life.
This is the baptism is a really,

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really crucial step.
There's a lot of important steps

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on your way to eternal life, but
baptism?

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That first step?
Hugely important.

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Huge, right one small.
All right, that's nothing of a

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clever Buzz Aldrin quote, but I
can't come up with it, so never

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mind.
OK.

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One, one small step for for man
1 giant leaf for exaltation.

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It's it's where we start.
So let's look at their take on

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baptism.
So this is from volume 1, the

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ways and customs of the
Ammonites, Chapter 7.

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So the Ammonites are again in
the Book of Mormon, the

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Ammonites are those Lamanites
that that convert and due to

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Alma the younger, not Alma
younger, the sons of Mosiah's

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ministry, right?
And they bring a bunch of

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Ammonites back into the
Nephites.

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They form their own city and
they're the Ammonites.

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So the Ammonites had their own
ways and customs.

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And I, I tried to find this
quote, but I couldn't find it.

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But basically when they,
according to this record, when

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they show up, Alma gives them
permission to continue some of

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their existing practices, which
I think is totally fine.

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Right.
As replacements for priest

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ordinances, not not so down.
To not so not so good.

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No, no, not.
So good, not so good.

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So there's a lot where there's a
lot in this record that

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describes Indian culture, Native
American culture.

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OK.
How and a lot of it's close to

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at least, you know, the modern
perspective of how the Native

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American people lived, right?
And it draws a lot upon their

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traditions and their beliefs.
I mean, I think this woman's

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council thing is totally
connected to that.

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A lot of this really does.
But the the point I'm bringing

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up here though, is so there's
this whole section in here where

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it describes the ways and
customs of the Ammonites, which

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is basically described as
Lamanite culture, but they're

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Christian.
Gotcha.

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OK.
So in Chapter 7, man, OK, this

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is the description of something
of their sweat lodge basically,

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and I'm not going to read this
whole thing, but if you know

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what a sweat lodge is, if you
ever done I've I've participated

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a few times.
So I have an uncle does them.

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It describes a sweat lodge I
don't have.

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I don't think there's anything
wrong with it with a sweat lodge

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ceremony.
I've had great experiences doing

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that, but I don't think it's the
same thing as being baptized.

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And they make that assertion
here.

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And that's what we're going to
see happen here.

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So here in verse 18, this is
Chapter 7.

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Behold, this is the manner of
sacrifice among the Ammonites

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and it is known as the
purification after the manner of

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the Ammonites wherein each
person so actually here it's

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maybe not replacement for
baptism here it seems to be a

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replacement for the the law of
of sacrifice, the Moses law of

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'cause this is this is pretty
Christ still right, right.

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And so they're still the
Nephites are still doing animal

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sacrifice according to the Law
of Moses.

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As they should.
As they should, wherein each

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person gives not a Bullock or a
lamb or a flight, but rather

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they sacrifice of themselves in
remembrance of the creation and

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declaration of the intent of
their hearts and in honor of the

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sacrifice of the Son, which
sacrifice shall be made for all

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according to as the prophets
have written.

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So at least here in this
instance, they're saying instead

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of doing the the sacrifice as
well as came through the law of

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Moses, as we see performed by
Abraham, as is instructed to

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Adam and Eve, They've got
they've got their own the one

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that that Abel performed that
sacrifice.

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They've got their own version.
Now this is a better version

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even because here they sacrifice
themselves because the sweat

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lodge is is is hard, is a hard
thing to endure.

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It's a it's a sacrifice.
So now this sacred manner of

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sacrifice is usually done by
men, for women make a greater

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sacrifice.
Nevertheless, on special

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occasions or for special
purposes, women may also make

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women make the sacrifice also.
Behold, this they do in order to

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at once fulfill the law of Moses
and also to look forward to the

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day of redemption, when the
Creator shall become the Savior

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and redeem the world.
Yeah, He was created.

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The heavens and the earth shall
descend and bow and take up all

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suffering.
By this you are all made part of

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this covenant he made with the
Father and the Holy Ghost.

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So I mean, I don't know.
To me, I don't see how this is

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different from Cain's sacrifice.
That's exactly where I was

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going.
What was Cain's ultimate

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downfall, right?
Well, you could say it was

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pride, right?
But.

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But.
There's a character flaw, but

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how did that character flaw
manifest?

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Right.
It manifested in saying, no, no,

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I'm special.
The Lord's rules don't apply to

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me exactly the way they apply to
everybody else, right?

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This is no different than Cain
offering a sacrifice that is not

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prescribed by the Lord.
But here in this, in this

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record, it is said, no, it's
totally fine.

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They're they're they're doing
just fine.

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They don't need to do animal
sacrifices.

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They they do sweat lodges.
It's just as good.

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And I don't have it like you.
I have nothing against the sweat

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lodge.
You know, it's not the same

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obviously, but you know, there's
health benefits to that.

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Like there is a sauna or
something like that, right?

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And and you know, I've even.
Heard of people I find spiritual

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value in?
It yeah, I think, you know,

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people have talked about finding
spiritual value there and that's

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great, but don't pretend it's a
substitute for what the Lord has

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prescribed, because it's not.
And that line of thinking will

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get your butt in a sling the
same way it got Keynes in a

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sling.
And I don't care how nice and

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flowery you couch the the
verbiage they're in in this

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record, it is still the same
problem.

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You are changing the ordinances
and that always leads to

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suffering every time.
Well, sympathy's going to have a

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word with you later on.
Maybe one of the three knee

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fights is going to have a word
to say to you later on.

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Maybe, maybe it, you know, if,
if this is, yeah, if, if he

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shows up at my door, then at
that point I'll have a talk.

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But until that happens, I think
I think I'll go ahead and stick

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with what God has said.
OK.

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I know I'm crazy that way.
We'll see how that strategy

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plays out.
All right. 21 by doing this

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Baptist or by doing sacrifice
this way instead.

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Essentially, right.
And the Lord has rewarded those

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who sacrifice in this manner
with the administration of

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angels, with great gifts of the
Spirit, and with the renewing of

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health and strength.
Nevertheless, the temple

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sacrifices are still performed
by the Nephites, and they are

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greatly blessed in their
observances.

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So good to know.
Good to know if you're going to

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do the spot lodge instead.
If you're still doing animal

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sacrifices like God told you,
that's OK too.

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That's still OK too.
Jeez.

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So at least we're not calling
out the Mosaic sacrifices.

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No, we're not.
Throwing them under the bus.

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Yeah, they're just saying
there's a different way of doing

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them.
They're just they're just saying

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this, this motorcycle is a bus
as well, right?

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And in 22 and this is good for
of all the ordinances of the

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Lord, those that prepare the
people to abide the presence of

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God are found in the sacrifices,
whether they be centered in the

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temple or in the community or in
the individual.

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And these ordinances demand
purity and good intent, else

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they are ineffectual.
So as long as you've got good

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intent, any kind of sacrifice
really is it counts.

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Right if if this is.
True, they prepare you to any

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kind of sacrifice prepares you
to meet God in some way or

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another.
And so it's it's all good.

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If this is true, the Lord owes
Cain an apology.

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That's.
An interesting point.

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Right.
I mean, if that's true, he owns.

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He owes Cain an apology.
Yeah, well, I don't know, Maybe

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we'll learn more about the real
reason Cain fell in volume. 7.

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Especially since it got brought
up.

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OK, so anyway, let's learn more
about baptism.

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Or, or that's not baptism.
Let's learn more about Not

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Baptism, volume one Second
Shimul, Chapter 7 Samuel, verse

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21.
And when a child reaches the age

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wherein they begin to understand
my gospel, they shall be held

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accountable for that
understanding.

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Sounds good?
Wherefore you shall take them,

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and cleanse them every whit with
water.

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And this may be done after the
manner of Alma, when he baptized

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the people in the waters of
Mormon, or after the manner of

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the purification of the
Ammonites.

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For I will accept such baptism
or such purification, and

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sanctify it unto you.
And behold, if they do this,

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accepting this ordinance with
understanding, then I will

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baptize them with fire, and with
the Holy Ghost.

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And by the way, this is Christ
speaking, supposedly.

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So the first one it's it can
replace animal sacrifice.

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It also is a a substitute for
baptism.

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Straight from the Lords of of
Christ.

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Straight from the mouth of
Christ, apparently.

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Holy cow.
But there's more.

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00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:49,400
But wait, there's more.
Volume 3, Book of Manatee

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Chapter 4.
Now this is more on the the

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cosmology on why it counts, why
any sacrifice works.

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OK, it's it gets it gets I
wouldn't say it gets

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complicated.
OK, So you know, you know,

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Lehigh teaches, you know, man is
that he might have joy, right,

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right.
There's these beautiful truisms

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that kind of come out of the
Book of Mormon that, you know,

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wickedness never was happiness.
And one of my favourites of

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those is when Alma's teaching
Coriantin and he says basically

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that, that what you put out
comes back to you.

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It's essentially a Mormon
perspective of, of karma,

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basically saying if you do bad
things, there will be there will

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be bad consequences.
And you know, I find that pretty

225
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,040
deep, but I also find it pretty
simple.

226
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,440
But we're going to look at
something very similar to that.

227
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,400
And this is might be really hard
to follow if you're listening,

228
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,320
it's hard to follow if you're
reading, but we're going to do

229
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,600
our best here.
So on verse 25, wherefore, and

230
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,800
I'm not sure who's some some
prophet's teaching here,

231
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,960
wherefore if a man chooses to do
evil, the matter does not end

232
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,840
with the choice and the action.
Do you see how any action

233
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,360
creates in its own sphere a
disturbance in the universe?

234
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,200
The universe.
Yeah, it's like the Force, a

235
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,200
disturbance in the Force.
Disturbance.

236
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,120
In the universe, right?
Yes.

237
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,440
I don't actually.
I, I, I do see how there are

238
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,280
consequences to actions that I
don't.

239
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,240
Some kind of a, a, a
metaphysical universal

240
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,320
disturbance.
Not, not so much.

241
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,280
I haven't, I haven't.
I have never experienced that

242
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:29,080
myself.
Right.

243
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,440
Like somebody in the universe
commits a sin, suzes evil.

244
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,480
I don't, I don't.
It's not, it's not affecting me.

245
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:37,880
I'm not picking up on that
stuff.

246
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,440
And maybe it is, but this
disturbance continues beyond the

247
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,880
actions of that one decision.
Yeah.

248
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,520
It continues outward and effects
all things created, which is

249
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,680
fascinating because basically
it's saying the consequence of

250
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,040
sin effects everybody and
everything.

251
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,680
All things created will be
affected when when somebody

252
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,800
chooses evil.
I don't know.

253
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,240
I mean, there's definitely a
ripple effect, don't get me

254
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,240
wrong, right?
Like if I if I go and and and

255
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,960
beat my kid and he grows up and
he has a bunch of kids and he

256
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,560
beats his kids and and they grow
up and they beat their kid, you

257
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:17,440
know, definitely things magnify.
But does that affect all things

258
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:18,640
created?
I don't know.

259
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,120
I don't see how it could.
I have a problem with this,

260
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,360
right?
Because it seems to be

261
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,160
recreating the conditions of the
fall all over it.

262
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:33,840
Yeah, right.
That to me is again, a little

263
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,200
problematic, right?
I didn't think that there's a

264
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,600
certain arrogance to this too,
right?

265
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,920
Like, how important are we that
we can affect everybody else

266
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,640
with one of our bad decisions?
Again, I get the analogy of if

267
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,400
you beat your kid and then he
goes on to be just a complete

268
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,480
jerk to everybody else.
I get that.

269
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,120
OK, that that makes sense.
But the way they're talking

270
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,960
about it here, it seems to have
a much more metaphysical

271
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,080
reaction.
Right.

272
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,160
And it does.
It kind of denies agency on the

273
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,280
things affected as well, right?
Because what if I beat my kid,

274
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,200
but he grows up and he comes to
Christ in a way I never did and

275
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,320
decides that beating beating
children are wrong and so he

276
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,040
doesn't beat his kids?
Right.

277
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,200
Is that not possible?
Oh, it's it, It happens quite

278
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,440
frequently that that someone
gets better.

279
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,240
Yeah, right.
But this kind of denies that and

280
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,240
says that no, it just grows and
it expands and effects

281
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,720
everything, right.
And behold, when it returns

282
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,600
again, it may have been
magnified into a much greater

283
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,960
evil.
And again, as far as return, you

284
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:49,520
know, as far as returns again, I
mean, I, I think it potentially

285
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:55,120
returns again in that there's a,
there are consequences to sin,

286
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,320
right?
Right.

287
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,200
But this is a little bit more
cosmic and it gets it gets more

288
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,640
complicated.
So who among you has not seen

289
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,119
this magnification?
Look unto the knee fights of the

290
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,079
land southward.
You notice they like to rail on

291
00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:09,359
the knee fights.
They like to, yeah, yeah.

292
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,599
They like to rail on the knee
fights a lot.

293
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,000
Which is funny because I mean.
They're.

294
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,640
Technically the same people,
they just gave themselves a

295
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,000
different label.
But I look into the knee fights

296
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,240
in the land southward and the
great evil that came that became

297
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,800
of just a few men and their evil
acts gay.

298
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,480
The whole face of the land was
laid waste, most especially in

299
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,560
the northernmost reaches in the
land southward.

300
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,400
Yay.
There's not one place in that

301
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,160
part of the land that has not
been altered.

302
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,880
Let this remind you of the
consequences of your actions at

303
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:46,440
all times.
OK, so it's just a, it's just a

304
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,880
couple bad people.
That's not what, that's not what

305
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,280
Mormon says, right?
The, the, you know, the whole of

306
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,200
the, the civilization became
bloodthirsty at some point,

307
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,360
right?
Right.

308
00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:00,960
I thought they were all
bloodthirsty, Yeah, for the most

309
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:02,520
part.
And that's why they fell.

310
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,720
Yeah, not just if.
If you want to take the Book of

311
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,840
Mormon's word for it.
Sure, right.

312
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,560
But maybe it was one or two men
who just did some evil and it

313
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,120
just magnified.
Right.

314
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:16,000
Yeah, and.
Everybody else had to pay that

315
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,120
price.
Right.

316
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,560
That's sad if that's true.
So in 27 and behold, the same

317
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,000
applies when a man chooses to do
good for the same law operates

318
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,840
in the case of good as it does
in the case of evil.

319
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,360
What you apply in the universe,
be it good or evil returns unto

320
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:34,440
you.
So, you know, kind of again,

321
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:39,080
copying Alma message Coriant in
there, but it's in a very more,

322
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,400
you know, again Alma Coriant.
I understood that when I read

323
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,240
that it made sense.
It was enlightening.

324
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,160
It was like, aha, it it's so
deep, but so simple.

325
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,080
This seems really complicated
and I, I, I don't follow it

326
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:53,600
personally.
No.

327
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,760
Regardless what you apply in the
universe be a good or evil

328
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,120
returns to you.
And if evil is multiplied in the

329
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:03,320
application of the universal
law, so then is good.

330
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,720
Let your actions for good go out
and come and go into the cosmos

331
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,680
and return unto you so magnified
that not one particle of your

332
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,720
matter is left unaltered.
That's I don't, I'm not sure

333
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,600
what that is like.
I've never had a good deed go

334
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,960
into the cosmos, no, and into
the universe and then come back

335
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,640
to me and affect every particle
of my existence.

336
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,360
No, but it's an interesting idea
I guess.

337
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,760
Look, there's no doubt you're
blessed when you do well, right?

338
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,360
What that blessing is may be
different each time or or

339
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:41,680
whatnot, but the way they're
describing it here is really

340
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,280
quite New Agey.
That's what I.

341
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,720
Thought seems very New Agey too,
and I don't necessarily think

342
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,080
it's that complicated.
I think it's a lot simpler than

343
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,120
that personally.
Actions have consequences.

344
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,560
You know cause effect and we can
I can comprehend that I can't

345
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,800
comprehend a good deed going
out, mingling among the stars

346
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,200
and then coming back and
affecting the particles of my

347
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,120
matter that one just.
No, it makes.

348
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:12,000
Doesn't make sense to me.
No, it makes no sense.

349
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,360
So continuing, this gets into
baptism, I promise.

350
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,440
No, you're good.
Or at least their baptism.

351
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,040
So now this law has greatest
effect when the motion caused is

352
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,080
greatest.
I guess I'm not sure what that

353
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,080
means, motion caused, but maybe
it's like a really good deed

354
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,000
creates a bigger.
Yeah, Yeah.

355
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,360
Wherefore the Lord has commanded
all of His children to seek an

356
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:41,520
understanding of the law of
sacrifice.

357
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,120
For it is by and through this
law that the most significant

358
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,400
change is made upon the matter
of mortal man.

359
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:52,440
So now we went from good deeds
and evil deeds to acts of

360
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:58,080
sacrifice.
And an act of sacrifice, as

361
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,280
opposed to a good or evil deed,
apparently causes the greatest

362
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,280
motion, and it goes out into the
universe, and therefore it comes

363
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,600
back even harder and transforms
you even more.

364
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,520
And this is the principle behind
acts of sacrifice, right?

365
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,600
So in 29.
Yeah.

366
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,200
For with all sacrifice comes a
crying out of the soul.

367
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,920
And this crying out or distress
of the soul causes the greatest

368
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,760
movement of the spiritual matter
of the universe.

369
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,000
But this matter exercises faith
according to the natural law of

370
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,560
which we have spoken.
I don't understand what that

371
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,800
means at all.
That's how matter exercises

372
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,280
faith.
Now, when this matter returns,

373
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,240
it seeks faith with which to
cause equilibrium.

374
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:44,840
I don't understand that at all
either.

375
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,120
I'll be honest, it's way over my
head and behold, all matter is

376
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:54,360
imbued with this intelligence.
I guess it's talking about the

377
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:59,560
Holy Ghost people.
Maybe if it returns to the point

378
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,560
of sorrow and finds their sorrow
still, it will cause that faith

379
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,480
to return into its own and the
consequence will be more sorrow

380
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,000
and greater.
So apparently it can be really

381
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,400
bad too though, even though it,
you know, it's supposed to be

382
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,560
this good thing going out and
coming back and being a good

383
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,760
thing.
If it comes back and, and you're

384
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,880
in a state of sorrow, apparently
it'll create even greater sorrow

385
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,200
for this does cause for this
cause.

386
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,920
Does suffering bring about
greater suffering if left

387
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,320
unmodified, which is odd.
In that case, then why suffer?

388
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,520
Why sacrifice?
If if sacrifice is going to go

389
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:40,240
out there and come back and hit
you and 'cause your sorrow to be

390
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,680
even greater, then why?
Why are you doing it?

391
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,680
I don't know.
But behold, if the matter

392
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,640
returns and finds in the place
of suffering great acts and

393
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,320
utterances of faith, this is
that which is utilized to bring

394
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,040
about equilibrium.
This faith is magnified and

395
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,280
edified such that great miracles
take place.

396
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,400
Wherefore we are commanded to
sacrifice that through our

397
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,200
suffering a better creation
comes into being.

398
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,840
I don't know, but this bothers
me.

399
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,960
It sounds a lot like what's
their name?

400
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,120
There's that Catholic order that
I like to hurt themselves.

401
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,440
Oh yeah, I can't remember, can't
remember who they are, but they

402
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,880
were the ones that would like
whip themselves and that sort of

403
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,360
stuff.
Right.

404
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:26,760
They're like the bad guys.
And that, that Pulp Fiction

405
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,840
style.
What is it?

406
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,800
The Davinci.
Code oh Opus day.

407
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,280
Opus Day?
Yeah, that's it, Opus.

408
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,480
This sounds a lot like Opus Day.
And I don't, I don't think

409
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,280
that's a true doctrine.
I don't think that's a true

410
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,320
principle.
I don't believe that we have to

411
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,160
make ourselves suffer and
sacrifice in a way that makes us

412
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,960
suffer.
And then to for it to transform

413
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,040
into faith to bring about
miracles and this idea of

414
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,640
bringing about a better creation
through our suffering.

415
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,640
Also it sounds a little
sacrilegious too because Christ,

416
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,480
Christ's sacrifice is is the one
and only sacrifice.

417
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,640
You know the things that we
sacrifice aren't really

418
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,080
sacrifices cause all things have
been given us of God.

419
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,000
The only sacrifice we have
available is our agency.

420
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,040
We can't sacrifice and make the
world a better place.

421
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,880
We can obey God and be used as a
tool to love God, and God can

422
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,760
bring about a better creation
through US.

423
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,200
And that might require
sacrifices at times, but it's

424
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:38,200
not this inherent metaphysical
principle of sacrifice that

425
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,960
somehow they did.
I made a sacrifice, therefore I

426
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,960
have I participated in some kind
of a of a global atonement.

427
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,800
Well, yeah, and that's, and
that's the the other place I was

428
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,400
going to go doesn't in a weird
way, seem to cheapen what the

429
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,240
Savior has done in his
sacrifice.

430
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,560
It seems that way to me.
I mean, 'cause that's the thing,

431
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:09,000
if if Christ's sacrifice didn't
bring a better creation into

432
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,360
being, right?
When once Christ sacrificed,

433
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:15,440
it's not like all of a sudden we
went back to Eden, right?

434
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:21,160
But it seems to allude here that
if enough of a sacrifice, and

435
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,760
that sacrifice is massive, well
then it brings about a better

436
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,000
creation.
Right.

437
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,400
Right.
You you see.

438
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,360
Brings about doomsday cult vibes
too to be honest.

439
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,760
Yeah, it's that well there.
It's at too, right?

440
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,120
All right.
Everybody line up at the

441
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:38,600
gallows.
We're going to we're going to

442
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,360
give the lasting great sacrifice
and bring this world in the

443
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,720
terrestrial sphere.
Yeah, yeah.

444
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,080
This is, this is problematic
based on where it puts Christ

445
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,280
and Christ's sacrifice, right.
It's no longer front and center

446
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,560
as the pivotal moment in human
history, but yet something that

447
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,320
maybe we could emulate in a way.
And through our sacrifice and

448
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,600
suffering, if we all do it, it
will be even more efficacious

449
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,360
than what's the Savior did.
This is blasphemy, to be honest

450
00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:10,800
with you.
Yeah.

451
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,360
I kind of agree, kind of agree,
but you might say, what does

452
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:17,760
this have to do with baptism,
right?

453
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,720
Well, this is what has to do
with baptism.

454
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,120
Knowing that you get a choice
baptism, do you want to get

455
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:28,080
baptized or do you want the
purification of Ammonites?

456
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,200
The the.
Right when your kids 8 years

457
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,800
old, you get to ask them that
question in the Nemenha society.

458
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,880
Oh, OK.
So for this cause is the

459
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,040
purification of the Ammonites
recommended unto you?

460
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,600
Yeah.
And for this cause was it so

461
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,360
highly favored and justified of
the Lord, which of you having

462
00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:49,960
placed yourself in the suffering
of this purification, and say

463
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,880
that you returned from it
without a miraculous

464
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,600
intervention?
So they actually say it's better

465
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,600
to do a sweat lodge than to be
baptized.

466
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,120
Yeah, because they're suffering
and that's you're now you're a

467
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,840
mini Christ essentially, I guess
in that suffering.

468
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,760
And it will coerce a miracle
because apparently, I mean, I

469
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,080
don't know, I didn't have a
miraculous intervention.

470
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,560
When I've done sweat lodges
before, they've been

471
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,160
challenging.
Don't get me wrong.

472
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,800
It's like a sauna, right?
They're very, it's very warm in

473
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,720
there.
You're in there for a long time.

474
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,200
It's dark.
It's not necessarily what you

475
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,920
want to do to unwind after a
hard day's work, but I don't

476
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,920
think it requires miraculous
intervention to endure a sweat

477
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,320
lodge, at least not the kind
that I have.

478
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,800
And if they're doing that kind
of the sweat lodge, that again

479
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,520
brings concerns to me.
If surviving the sweat lodge

480
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,040
requires miraculous
intervention, I.

481
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,560
Don't.
Know what to say about that?

482
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,520
Yeah.
It is for this cause also that

483
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,920
fasting, study, meditation and
prayer are also highly

484
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,000
recommended unto you.
So I guess those things are also

485
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,280
sacrifices that require bracket
of the tradition.

486
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,520
So I can't help myself.
In fasting a soul suffering is

487
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,040
caused and that soul cry moves
upon the matter of your body at

488
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,800
I mean like OK hold up, what
about fasting and joy?

489
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,040
Right, right.
And and didn't like this sets up

490
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,360
everything that the Lord said to
be wary of when you're fasting,

491
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:31,640
right.
This sets up a kind of a weird

492
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,520
well, in a weird way, it's still
the the same same principle

493
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,040
here, right?
The new the new social currency

494
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,320
are those who will have
suffered, right?

495
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,000
That's that's the, the, the new
social currency, the the victim

496
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,800
class right here.
But if you listen to Christ, he

497
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,680
tells you, you know, when
fasting don't go looking like,

498
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,080
you know, you death warmed over,
right?

499
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,800
That's not the purpose of
fasting.

500
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,560
And I could see where this would
kind of give way to a virtue

501
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,280
signaling through your fasting
sort of a thing, right?

502
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,400
Because right?
You're right, throwing yourself

503
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,800
into dangerous situations so
that God can save you, so that

504
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,600
you can be a part of the
atonement and help restore the

505
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,560
world.
I mean, there's some very scary

506
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,080
ideas that can be derived from
this in my opinion.

507
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,880
Yeah, and and it's you're right,
it does got that, you know, self

508
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,480
torture kind of vibe going on to
it here that that is super

509
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,320
problematic.
Right.

510
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,120
Not to say that there isn't
suffering.

511
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,880
Christ tells us to take up his
cross.

512
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,160
Sure, all of him.
So sacrifice is a true

513
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,320
principle, but I think they're
taking it and turning it into

514
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,000
something different.
They are.

515
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:43,440
They are.
Yep.

516
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,200
And that's the issue I've got
with it.

517
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,480
And so real quick here back in
Moron High, this is another

518
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,240
interesting thing.
When a young person has received

519
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,520
our remission of their sins,
they are baptized in the name of

520
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,040
the Father and the Son and the
Holy Ghost.

521
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,400
That's Morhonia chapter 17 verse
7.

522
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,720
Just a quickie, but it seems
like they got it backwards.

523
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,400
They do have it backwards.
Pretty sure that you're baptized

524
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,400
so you can receive a remission
of your sins, not that you

525
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,480
receive a remission of your sins
so you can be baptized.

526
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,160
Right.
There's a few other things in

527
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,680
there, but anyway, let's keep
moving on.

528
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,160
Here we go.
Here's here's where it all comes

529
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,320
down.
And they spell it out as clear

530
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,280
as as clear as day.
OK, this is, I believe it's Lehi

531
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,840
who's one of the three Nephites
among the Nephites who's come to

532
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,720
the Nemenha people and he's
teaching them.

533
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,680
And he's also brought an an
epistle of some kind from Europe

534
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,280
because he was visiting Europe.
And while he was in Europe, he

535
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,160
met his meeting with some woman
who was a descendant of Christ.

536
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,040
And so she says hi to them and
hi from Europe.

537
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:59,160
And but then Lehigh gets into a
sermon and they they write,

538
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,880
they, they tell him what he
wanted to send us back to say hi

539
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,760
to hi back to her, I guess, or
whoever's alive by the time he

540
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,040
goes back again.
But anyway, so that's the

541
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,640
context.
And so Lehigh's teaching here, I

542
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,840
believe, or maybe Nephi, it's
one of the two.

543
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,400
They're both there at the time.
Wherefore judge not the nations,

544
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,880
First, because you know not
judgement, and 2nd, because in

545
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,560
the midst of the thrall of your
judgement, you will likely lose

546
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,640
the common thread of truth and
that in which you stand in

547
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,800
judgement.
Keep your eyes wide open and

548
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,480
seek diligently in all books and
in all traditions, those truths

549
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,200
that guide the Spirit even into
the contemplation of higher

550
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,080
things.
So I don't have an issue with

551
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,920
looking for truth in all things.
No, no I don't.

552
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:46,920
And.
That's where this, that's where

553
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,000
that verse ends.
But the verse begins by saying

554
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,560
you're not allowed to judge.
And I've got issue with that.

555
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,320
Not, do not judge the nation's,
you know, there are, there's

556
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,720
some bad things that have
happened in time.

557
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,640
You know, there's, there is a
slave trade that happened in, in

558
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,040
Africa and I feel like I can
judge that.

559
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:11,880
I, I feel pretty comfortable
judging that.

560
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,080
You know, Japanese, what do they
call them?

561
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,920
Samurai, you know, having
authority, wantonly murder

562
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,160
anybody they want legally, you
know, that kind of stuff.

563
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,680
There's, there's some things
that I, I think I can absolutely

564
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,520
judge the nations.
Look, I think I do know what

565
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,520
because God tells us how to
judge, right?

566
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,880
This is actually ironically one
of the messages in the book of

567
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,400
Moroni that Moroni is
specifically writing to the

568
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,440
Lamanites is how to properly
judge and how to properly give a

569
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,560
good gift.
Originally, I think that was a

570
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,400
sermon of Mormons, but Moroni
copies and pastes it in his

571
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,120
record directed to the Lamanites
specifically because these are

572
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,200
important.
You need to understand how to

573
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,280
judge correctly and you need to
understand how to give a good

574
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,240
gift or basically a good
sacrifice, right?

575
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,480
And he spells it out and it does
not say this.

576
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,760
This is this is different.
Right.

577
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,280
But I understand why he's saying
it right?

578
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:23,480
Because us wicked Gentiles might
be like, hey, you know what?

579
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,440
This purification of the
Ammonites, who are we to judge

580
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,200
that is a valid baptism or not?
Right.

581
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,840
Right.
And I mean, I would agree we

582
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,680
should be careful in judgement
in the context of the baptism.

583
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,560
I, I do judge it falsely under
the context of a ritual that can

584
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,440
be spiritual and help you
connect with God.

585
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,040
It can be productive.
I'm, I think it's OK to, to look

586
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,320
at certain things.
Sure, I guess what lodge and

587
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,640
judge them that way.
But this is a thought.

588
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,080
This is trying to make it so you
can't take that middle ground,

589
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,760
right?
You can't, you can't, you can't

590
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,520
pull the truth out of cultures
and incorporate them into your

591
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:02,960
own faith.
No, no, no, no.

592
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,480
You've got to accept everything
of other cultures and including

593
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,679
their perspectives on this and
pull it all in.

594
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,800
So behold the animate.
So you get talks about the

595
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,920
Ammonite purification.
It's different from the

596
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,080
Nephites, and it says that Jesus
the Peacemaker justified both.

597
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,760
Right.
And it talks about how the

598
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:32,000
purification of the Ammonites is
even more holy and it's OK,

599
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,560
let's go through this act.
This is interesting.

600
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,800
So he talks about the Ammonites
and says the Ammonite sweat

601
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,560
lodge is equivalent and
justified right now.

602
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,360
He goes on and talks about the
the Twil Ha.

603
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,000
I can't remember who they are,
but there's some other people

604
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,320
that are around.
And behold, the Twil ha, do

605
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,199
dance a ceremony most
diligently.

606
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:51,560
Yeah.
And they do dance around and

607
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,960
around all day long.
And over and over do they cross

608
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,920
the shadow of a tree that they
dance their ceremony unto the

609
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,200
peacemaker.
And they do sweat, as it were,

610
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,960
great drops of blood at every
pore.

611
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,320
Yeah, their living sacrifice is
great as they dance the hoop

612
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,520
over the cross of the tree over
and over again.

613
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,040
And some do even make a piercing
of the body.

614
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,320
And they do all this in
similitude of the great

615
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,000
sacrifice made by the
peacemaker.

616
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,520
Yeah.
They dance over and over the

617
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,640
shadow of the tree, and they
sacrifice the water of their

618
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,680
lives.
And they do shed blood, all in

619
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,720
remembrance of the unrelenting
eternal nature of the living

620
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:24,960
sacrifice.
That being described there is

621
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,760
called a Sundance.
You know, it's a it's a thing.

622
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,440
It's a thing.
I'm not going to judge it in and

623
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,120
of itself as a thing, but it
this is not what a Sundance is.

624
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,880
It is not done in similitude of
Christ's atonement.

625
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,480
Right.
The people who perform

626
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,160
sundancers don't know who Christ
is.

627
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,160
OK.
And this is certainly not an

628
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,280
equivalent of baptism, no, but
it goes on.

629
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:56,920
And The Who is she?
Only people make yet a stranger

630
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,440
ceremony where in they do
costume or they do consume a

631
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,560
holy sacrament, which does cause
them to see most clearly all of

632
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,480
their greatest fears and even
their sins.

633
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,120
And they are buried up in them
Even so much that they do swoon.

634
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,600
And they do give up all of these
things and sacrifice, even as

635
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,200
King Lemoni of old offered to
give all of his sins to know the

636
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:17,720
Great Spirit.
Yeah.

637
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,600
In this strange way, they are
buried up in their own hurts and

638
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,920
ills, even the fear of death,
and they are delivered up out of

639
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,240
these things because of their
living sacrifice.

640
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,720
Now the Hoshioli oblation of
purification is different than

641
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:34,800
that celebrated by the twilhah,
and the twilhah ceremony is

642
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,560
different from the purification
of the Ammonites, as the

643
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,040
ceremony of the Ammonites was
from the washing and anointing

644
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,800
of Jerusalem's at Jerusalem's
Temple.

645
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,240
And yet it you may be assured
that the peacemaker does also

646
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:49,960
justify them.
Therefore, judge not all the

647
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,280
good works of people whose
tradition is different from

648
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,000
yours, but seek instead to
understand of their ways and

649
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:05,520
their unity of faith.
And behold, the baptism which

650
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,800
you now make is not the baptism
once performed in the land of

651
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,920
Jerusalem.
Behold, for many generations,

652
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,760
when men and women would come
into the path of your ancient

653
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,160
fathers, they do walk into the
water and are taken up in boats

654
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,240
with Nets and blessed by the
priests.

655
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,960
What?
First time I've heard of that,

656
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,800
but apparently that's how they
did baptisms in Jerusalem.

657
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,200
Does this sound strange to you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it does.

658
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,720
Of course it does.
But shall you judge such things?

659
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:44,960
Yeah, I'm, I'm going to.
No, come on.

660
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,200
No, no, I, I will.
Judge yet instead the principles

661
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,920
taught by such a strange thing.
There's some good to be found in

662
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,480
it, I'm sure.
I'm sure. 56 And look, you,

663
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:03,680
Batilda, that's the the
descendant of Jesus in Europe,

664
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,600
the daughter of the peacemaker,
has sent you an epistle

665
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,680
proclaiming and testifying with
patents the reality of the man

666
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:12,920
Jesus.
And they who passed judgement

667
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,240
would assume that their
ceremonies ought to be ever the

668
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:21,080
same as their own, and must be
OK.

669
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,880
But the whole Bathilda did kneel
herself before a priest, and

670
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,200
received a burial with but a
sprinkling of water.

671
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:33,200
Holy cow.
We're going to justify that to

672
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,720
them, too.
Yep.

673
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,680
Now judge you yourself if you
think you can.

674
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,720
Can you, Dave?
You place the body of the

675
00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:46,800
departed deep within the stone,
or in a jar, all stopped and

676
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,840
covered.
And this is the immersion which

677
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,000
you do in sample with all of
your baptizing.

678
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,520
But the people of Bathilda do
enter their dead in a grave, and

679
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,800
do sprinkle first the earth upon
them, and this also does signify

680
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,040
immersion for them.
Can you see how the sprinkling

681
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,680
of water might have the same
truth as the immersion of the

682
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,280
whole body?
Can you not discern the likeness

683
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,960
of these things then as well?
Indeed, that you leave off all

684
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,360
judgement of such things.
You know, I was recently

685
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,200
studying Catholicism, right, and
and the Orthodox Church.

686
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,320
The Orthodox Church still
prefers baptism by immersion as

687
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,680
the standard, but they do allow
for baptisms by sprinkling.

688
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,120
But here's the thing, unlike
early, early church things,

689
00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:37,200
right?
Like the first 100 years, you

690
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,400
see, I mean AD.
Right.

691
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,360
We don't know a whole lot about
Christianity at that point,

692
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,240
right?
But once you get a few 100 years

693
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:50,160
in, we get the church, the
Catholic Church, right?

694
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,320
And you get the Orthodox.
Basically it's all, it's all one

695
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:54,920
at that point still, right?
And they're growing and they're

696
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,600
expanding.
We.

697
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,360
Know the evolution of sprinkling
baptisms.

698
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,520
We know what they are.
The evolution of them is

699
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,840
recorded in the history of the
Catholic and Orthodox faith that

700
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,040
basically people on their
deathbed or a newborn infant on

701
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:19,200
its deathbed that has not been
baptized is at risk in their in

702
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,760
their according to their
theology of eternal damnation.

703
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,800
Right.
And so if they're willing to be

704
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,120
baptized, but they're physically
incapable because you're in in

705
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,200
the hospital, they wanted to
make an arrangement.

706
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,560
And that's where the sprinkling
came in.

707
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,840
Right.
And over time, it became the

708
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,000
standard in the Catholic Church.
The Orthodox Church still holds,

709
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,960
though, that it's allowable and
still in those contexts, but

710
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,880
it's just a special rule in
those contexts.

711
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:48,480
You should still be baptized by
immersion.

712
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:54,240
But we know where it came from
it they don't say anything about

713
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,960
it signifying death because they
sprinkled dirt over people's

714
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,840
graves.
That's that's not where where

715
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:08,120
the sprinkling baptism came
from, historically speaking,

716
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,400
here by the people who kept that
history because they invented

717
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,640
the practice.
Dude, it's the same argument

718
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,400
every time you change the
ordinance every time, right?

719
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,080
No, no, no, it's not about the
ordinance.

720
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,760
It's about the meaning behind
the ordinance, which is kind of

721
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,640
a true thing, except for there
are times when the ordinance and

722
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,640
the way the ordinance is
performed carries the deeper

723
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:38,080
message, right?
And so what's happening here is

724
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,080
the same thing that's happened
throughout time.

725
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,520
It's an excuse not to do the
ordinances as is prescribed that

726
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,960
that's it.
And they seek just to exclude

727
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,120
it.
And then there's a, I'm sorry, a

728
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,400
a weak kneed attempt at
justifying everybody's

729
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,640
traditions, right, right.
And look, I mean, there's.

730
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,200
A wide variety of traditions
here.

731
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,040
You've got sundances, you've got
sweat lodges, you've got what

732
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,800
looks like an ayahuasca
ceremony.

733
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:12,520
You've got sprinkling.
You've got some absurd thing

734
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,920
about wandering into the into
the lake and getting caught up

735
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,960
in Nets, I mean.
I have no idea this is this is

736
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,320
insane.
Yeah, but it gets very clear,

737
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,640
right.
So first it starts with either

738
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,240
acceptable sweat lodge is kind
of preferable.

739
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:34,560
And then it's just like full
blown like anything, right?

740
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,120
Like, well, what are, what are
what are the, what do Muslims

741
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:38,720
do?
Because I'm sure that counts

742
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:40,200
too.
Sure.

743
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,840
I guess Buddhist, Buddhist,
Buddhists, oh, they don't eat

744
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,560
meat, some of them, right?
So that's a sacrifice.

745
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,600
So I guess that counts for them.
I mean, I guess everything

746
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,560
everybody does.
So it's like we're all saved.

747
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,280
Man.
And I guess they all have the

748
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:00,720
priesthood potentially too,
right?

749
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,440
I mean, it might not have been,
they might not have received the

750
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:08,360
token of it, but they received
it 'cause they meditate too.

751
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:18,600
So it's kind of the theology of
the justification of rejecting

752
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,640
the restoration.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

753
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,880
And, and let's.
And that's a good point too,

754
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,920
right?
The restoration, per what God

755
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,320
revealed to Joseph Smith, was to
get rid of this kind of

756
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,720
confusion.
Right.

757
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:39,720
This is why Joseph Smith got so
confused and went to pray in the

758
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:44,960
Sacred Grove.
Yes, through this, this alleged

759
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:52,240
record, they are undoing some of
that and it can only serve to

760
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:55,560
just, it's depressing in some
ways.

761
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:01,880
Holy cow.
Yeah, so I've got, I've got one

762
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,200
more topic that we need to hit
which.

763
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,280
Is plural marriage, Yeah, let's
hit plural marriage.

764
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,760
We definitely need to do that.
OK.

765
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,880
We'll try to go through it
quick, but it's a big section

766
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:11,480
here.
You're good.

767
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,720
There's a lot on it.
Whatever it takes.

768
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,920
All right, we're in Volume 3,
the Book of Manatee Chapter 3.

769
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,240
This is the Nemenha people have
just established themselves,

770
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,760
they're kind of new and that
we're going to being organized

771
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,760
and they're getting, they get a
visitor from Asia like East

772
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,440
Asia, Asia.
OK.

773
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,920
On this flazen and he comes over
and visits with them and it

774
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,880
turns out they've got a lot of
things in common.

775
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,440
In fact, he knows of Christ, he
preaches of Christ.

776
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,920
They have the same, they like
having all things in common too

777
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,240
or something.
And they they, they mesh

778
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:54,000
doctrinally.
But on one point, he's got his

779
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,920
own ideas, OK?
OK.

780
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,760
But behold, he did teach one
thing against which our prophets

781
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,800
had been warned, and about which
our Scripture spoke.

782
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,600
Yeah, he did teach that a man
might take to himself more than

783
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,360
one wife and be justified in it.
He taught that the man is the

784
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,640
head of the woman, and if the
head of one woman, why not the

785
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,040
head of many?
Yeah, the principle of his

786
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,720
teaching was the doctrine that
the salvation of the woman

787
00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:20,840
depended upon the worthiness of
the man to whom she was wed.

788
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,840
It was his belief that an
honourable man could feel free

789
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,880
to take as many wives as his
resources would allow, and that

790
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,560
it was the duty of all men to
conduct their lives so that

791
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:35,000
their business to afford the man
this luxury.

792
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:41,760
Right.
Right off the bat.

793
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:50,280
Right off the bat.
So here's what really bothers me

794
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,240
about this.
Yay.

795
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:56,160
Principal to his teaching was
the doctrine that the salvation

796
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,400
of the woman depended upon the
worthiness of the man to whom

797
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,760
she was wed.
Do you believe that's true,

798
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:07,360
Dave?
Does woman marry matter?

799
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,760
Well, I, I think it matters,
right?

800
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,120
But I think if, if a woman
marries a guy and the guy turns

801
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,840
out to be a dirtbag, I don't
think that affects her salvation

802
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,520
necessarily.
If she's walked up to her

803
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,400
covenants, I think something
will be made, you know, that

804
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,280
whether she gets remarried or
whatnot, right?

805
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,320
I do believe marriage is
necessary for exaltation, right?

806
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:35,680
But to assume that the guy she
married, because let's face it,

807
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,960
sometimes marriages happen and
one spouse turns out to be a

808
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,600
dirtbag, right?
It happened.

809
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:47,240
And so because she was married
to somebody who she thought was

810
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:49,560
good, who turned out to be a
dirtbag, I don't see that

811
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,520
necessarily affecting her
salvation.

812
00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:54,720
Right, but the the man isn't
without the woman, or the woman

813
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:56,400
without the man in.
The war right at some point

814
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:57,280
does.
She need a.

815
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,640
Does she need a worthy man?
Yes, if he led to.

816
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,000
Yes, just like you and I need a,
a, a worthy woman right now,

817
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,200
whether whether that gets taken
care of here or in the next

818
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,160
life.
One way or another, if if we

819
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:15,600
want to progress, we have got to
be married to a worthy spouse.

820
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,840
Right, and therefore I I agree
with this.

821
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,800
Right.
That the salvation of the woman

822
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,200
depended upon the worthiness of
the man to whom she was wed.

823
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,440
I also likewise believe that the
word the the salvation of the

824
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,800
man is dependent upon the
worthiness of the woman to whom.

825
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,720
He is led.
I agree totally.

826
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,200
Yep.
These things matter if they

827
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:37,720
don't matter.
If they don't matter, then it

828
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:39,320
really doesn't matter who you
marry.

829
00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:43,280
No, no, no.
If, if these things don't

830
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,280
matter, then don't worry about
marrying in the covenant.

831
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,800
Don't worry about marrying
someone who's equally yoked with

832
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,840
you in your religion.
Just go get married.

833
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:54,880
Just find somebody.
Doesn't matter.

834
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,280
Exactly.
Find somebody the insight to

835
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,760
this is fascinating because you
you just did that podcast with

836
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:01,720
Taylor.
Yep.

837
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:03,640
Or those podcasts with Taylor,
right.

838
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:08,800
And you discussed all those, I
would say natural arguments for

839
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,040
polygamy.
Yep, right.

840
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,360
If they're not, they weren't
theologically centered.

841
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,680
They were more of just like,
hey, natural law, cause and

842
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,280
effect, consequence.
This is why this makes a lot of

843
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,480
sense and it made a lot of sense
when I was listening to it.

844
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,440
It seems like this guy kind of
understands that to a degree,

845
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,800
but he's rejecting it, right?
Because there's wrong doctrine.

846
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,200
Because I think it does matter.
I think women should be able to

847
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:39,120
work, marry worthy men, but he's
saying they need to.

848
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,880
And therefore it makes sense for
polygamy.

849
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:45,800
And I, I completely agree,
right?

850
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,520
Yep.
So I agree.

851
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,160
But where, where does it go?
26 And I say unto you, even

852
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,480
though I justify the taking of
more than one wife to fulfill my

853
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,160
purposes, still shall a man be
sealed by the Holy Spirit of

854
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,000
promise.
Two, but one woman, and a woman

855
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,560
shall be sealed by that same
spirit. 2 but one man.

856
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,800
And this is the manner of
marriage in the eternities,

857
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,040
regardless of the customs of men
and mortality.

858
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:13,600
OK, so they're saying there can
be no eternal ceilings for a

859
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,640
plural family.
Yes.

860
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,200
OK, I'm going to say that again
so everybody can hear it.

861
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:25,960
According to the Nimenhau record
and those who say that they are

862
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,000
hitching their wagons to the
Nimenhau Record, there is no

863
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,640
plural marriage in the
eternities.

864
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:36,120
So if you're a practicing, if
you're practicing the principal

865
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,000
like I am and I'm you're.
Going to have to pick one.

866
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,960
I'm spending all this time to
nurture relationships and the

867
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,840
girls are spending time to
nurture their relationships.

868
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:53,200
It counts for nothing, according
to the Neiman Hall record.

869
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,040
And people who say that it's a
true record and they hitch to

870
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,400
it, let's just call it what it
is.

871
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:01,880
Right.
And you're going to have to pick

872
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,080
one.
Yes.

873
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,320
You want to talk about a
sadistic God.

874
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,520
I do not want to worship the God
of the Nemenhau record.

875
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,000
That is a sadistic God.
You are going to live your whole

876
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:19,120
life as a family.
And then in the end he's going

877
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,840
to say, oh, pick one, Not a God.
I want to serve Justin.

878
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,320
I agree.
So let's let's see what it what

879
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,920
they have to say about it.
And I declare, declare unto you,

880
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,400
if you base your marriage upon
property or the getting of gain.

881
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,040
Yeah.
If the number of husbands or

882
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,800
wives devolves upon the means of
a man or a woman the same as

883
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:40,560
wickedness and abomination.
Yeah.

884
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,720
I shall not justify it.
And surely this practice shall

885
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:46,400
bring down the nation.
Behold, I am Jesus Christ and I

886
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,520
have spoken it.
I made a jump there by the way,

887
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,520
I was at verse 16.
I skipped to 26 because just

888
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,400
there's a lot of filler.
Yeah.

889
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,960
So 26 is now this is the answer.
And so this is the Lord's

890
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,560
answer.
So the assumption is is that

891
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:05,120
plural marriage is based upon
getting gain and then after.

892
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,560
Stupid assertion.
Right.

893
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,160
So afterwards the Nemenha people
tell this Chinese dude, you

894
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,840
know, hey, we asked Scott about
this full marriage thing you've

895
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:20,240
been preaching and it's wrong.
And so this is his response

896
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,160
today.
I have learned a great lesson.

897
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,040
I have learned that the wisdom
of the wise cannot compare with

898
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,120
the gifts of the Spirit.
For though the practice of my

899
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,880
people of taking as many wives
as one can support is a corrupt

900
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,480
practice, if only because of the
tendency it might cause for a

901
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:41,400
man to concentrate on the things
of this world over the things of

902
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:48,640
heaven.
OK, so so the the assertion

903
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:53,960
there is is if you practice
plural marriage, you must be by

904
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:58,840
definition a materialistic
worldly individual who can is

905
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,520
only concerned with getting
gained to have more wives.

906
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:09,560
Is that is that just OK?
Yeah, yeah, if only for the very

907
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,280
fact that, you know, it makes
you concentrate on the things of

908
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,440
this world.
But by that argument, then,

909
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,360
well, see, if I wasn't married
and if I didn't have children, I

910
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,080
wouldn't have to worry about my
job.

911
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,360
And you know what sucks me into
the things of the world more

912
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,520
than anything else?
My job, the hours I spend be

913
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,920
able to support a family.
I mean, that's me in the world,

914
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,560
you know, traversing the world,
navigating the world, dealing

915
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,560
with those things, wishing we
were living in Zion society, but

916
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,320
we're not.
But if one wife, if two wives,

917
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,240
is going to drive you from God
into the world supporting 2

918
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:52,240
wives, then surely so what's
supporting 1 though?

919
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,760
And so wouldn't that also be
right?

920
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,160
Corrupt.
Yep.

921
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,920
I mean it's he's really arguing
ow, maybe we found the first

922
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:01,760
Buddhist.
Maybe.

923
00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:06,080
Right, because the Buddhist, you
know, the Buddhism is this

924
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:10,800
belief of we're going to subdue
any kind of desire, right?

925
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,000
The ultimate stoicism.
Right.

926
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,160
So we can focus on holy things.
We won't have families, we won't

927
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,920
have wives.
We won't eat food that tastes,

928
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,040
well, good.
We're going to just make life as

929
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,280
miserable as possible.
So we can focus on heavenly

930
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:28,280
things.
Gosh.

931
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,200
So yeah, and it goes on a little
bit more, but.

932
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,560
Not only do they say it's not
acceptable, acceptable to teach

933
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,360
or or to live, they're telling
you that it is an evil.

934
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,960
Foolish is a doctrine that
centers one thoughts on the

935
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:44,640
accumulation of the things of
the world.

936
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,560
You know, I'd really like to
talk to the guy face to face

937
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,360
because here's the thing, that
dude don't know me and that dude

938
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,440
don't know the intent of most
guys hearts who engage in this

939
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:59,360
practice.
And it's you want to talk.

940
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:03,280
You know that last line there in
31 is how foolish, How foolish

941
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,600
is the guy who wrote this
because he doesn't know I'm.

942
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:09,040
I'm going to stop right there
before I start saying some bad

943
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:10,920
things, OK?
All right, all right.

944
00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:12,440
Move on, because I'm.
Let's move on.

945
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:13,560
I'm.
Going to get through.

946
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,480
This I'm a little pissed now.
So yeah, we better, we better

947
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,840
get.
All right, it's going to get

948
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,000
better.
Oh good.

949
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,840
Oh good.
Do I just need to get like duct

950
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,240
tape and just tape my head up so
I can have all the pieces after

951
00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:31,720
it explodes maybe?
Maybe.

952
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:35,440
So.
OK, they're talking about law of

953
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,000
chastity and they basically are
going to wrap anti polygamy into

954
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:41,200
law of chastity.
This isn't anything that new

955
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,200
here, but basically it's it's a,
it's a standard Christian

956
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:45,440
arguments.
Actually, it's interesting.

957
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:47,440
It's the exact same standard
Christian arguments you see

958
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,960
against polygamy today.
One is, well, Adam and Eve.

959
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,480
It's not Adam and Eve's.
Right.

960
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:59,120
And argument #2 is well, Abraham
did practice polygamy, but look

961
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,560
at how big of a problem that all
turned out.

962
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,800
That's why we have Ishmael and
all that.

963
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:11,440
So therefore we can know that
it's wrong even though it's not

964
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:15,480
prohibited, right?
And they're just going to repeat

965
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:16,720
those right here.
That's what they do.

966
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,400
They're saying, hey, this is a
oh, actually this was

967
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:23,080
fascinating.
This is fascinating here, right?

968
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:29,480
So I would have you also observe
that she Elohe did not covenant

969
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:34,080
with Pennsylvania and it's Elohe
or the first woman, but he did

970
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:38,120
covenant with Pennsylvania,
Elohe and she did give him a new

971
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,760
name.
Even Elohim, which being

972
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:45,600
interpreted means they are one.
They're saying Elohim means they

973
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,520
are one.
What does the Hebrew have to say

974
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,640
about that?
Well, we are not so centered

975
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,960
from the Jerusalem of our past,
nor from that spoken tongue of

976
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,800
our fathers.
Lehi and Nephi spoke, that the

977
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,960
structure and form of the name
Elohim escapes our

978
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,480
understanding.
So they don't they understand

979
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:10,000
it, for it is the same in our
tongue today as it was anciently

980
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:15,080
so hey, they understand it.
The name of a woman and one

981
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:19,960
denoting more than one person.
OK, so they're.

982
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:25,320
It's funny, they're even kind of
admitting that the name Elohim

983
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,640
denotes masculine and a plural
feminine.

984
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,520
Right.
They're acknowledging that.

985
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,880
Yep.
Now from the revelation of the

986
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,400
temple, we learned that this did
not denote more than one wife.

987
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:45,360
Oh, OK, never mind, never mind.
For when this was done by men

988
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,080
without the direct time of
command of God, great evil came

989
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,400
upon the people.
So in other words, we don't know

990
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,600
what it means.
We don't know what it means

991
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,680
because what it clearly means
can't be what it means because,

992
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,440
well, our temple ordinance says
that polygamy is bad.

993
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:05,120
So anyway, I thought that was
fascinating.

994
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,560
I don't know what was going on
there, why you would bring up an

995
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,000
argument, a counter argument you
couldn't answer.

996
00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:15,200
Yeah.
But nonetheless, there it is

997
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:16,800
that can make you a little
happy.

998
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,160
Now consider to me the
consequence of God playing this

999
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:20,400
outside the bonds that She has
set.

1000
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,480
When men take upon themselves
many wives simply because they

1001
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,720
are able, they cause an
isolation to develop between

1002
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,640
them and other men.
They strengthen themselves, or

1003
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,480
so they suppose, by the weakness
created in others.

1004
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,560
The idea here, I'll get into
that this is we're going to look

1005
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,120
at a little bit of their temple
ceremony here, just a second,

1006
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:45,360
where it explains this better.
But basically by practicing

1007
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:48,320
polygamy, you injure your fellow
man, and you also raise up a

1008
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,000
generation devoted to you by
blood, not by love.

1009
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,400
So your children won't love you
if you're a polygamist,

1010
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,440
apparently.
OK.

1011
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,840
Apparently.
What they who are deprived of

1012
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,240
that wholesomeness that comes of
the relationship of wife and

1013
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,680
husband, they are driven into
excesses and then into unnatural

1014
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,960
love.
So here's the thing, right?

1015
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:12,960
I practice.
So here's the thing, right?

1016
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,960
Let's say there's let's say I'm
in a I'm not on a deserted

1017
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,960
island, OK?
And there's me, and I'm trying

1018
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:24,320
to think of somebody.
I'm thinking more fictional

1019
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,800
character.
Probably it's you and Andrew

1020
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:27,760
Tate.
How's that?

1021
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:28,840
OK.
All right.

1022
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,080
You're on a deserted island with
Andrew Tate and there's three

1023
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:33,640
women with you.
OK.

1024
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:35,800
There are two women.
There's two women there.

1025
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:37,320
OK, you, Andrew Tate, and two
women.

1026
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,280
And you're on this deserted
island and Armageddon happens

1027
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,960
and the nukes go off and you're
the last people on earth and

1028
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,280
you're trying to get by on on
this deserted island.

1029
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,160
And you're like, all right, I
guess it's kind of up to us to

1030
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:51,400
repopulate the world.
It's 2 girls.

1031
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,440
Look over and Andrew Tate, the
two girls look over at you and

1032
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:00,920
then they look at each other and
they go rock, paper, scissors,

1033
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,240
right?
And they play rock, paper,

1034
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,080
scissors.
One of them loses and she looks

1035
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,560
over at your tape.
She looks back over at you.

1036
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:10,560
She looks back over the other
girl.

1037
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:12,480
She's like, that's two out of
three.

1038
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,920
And you know, a year later,
they're still doing rock, paper,

1039
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:23,880
scissors, right?
Because they're just like that

1040
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,800
guy, that guy.
No, no, that ain't going to

1041
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:29,280
happen.
That just ain't going to happen.

1042
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,160
So finally they they both will
come to you, right?

1043
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,240
And they're like, look, we
can't, we can't do this in any

1044
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,480
kind of fairway.
But it's not fair to to make one

1045
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:41,600
of us marry Andrew Tate, OK?
That would just be the ultimate

1046
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:43,800
injustice in this world, right?
Right.

1047
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:48,960
And so the that's the Nemetha.
The the Nemetha solution,

1048
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:50,360
though, is they have to marry
Andrew Tate.

1049
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,320
It doesn't matter.
A woman doesn't need to marry a

1050
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,640
righteous man.
It's OK for her to go with

1051
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,800
Andrew Tate 'cause you know why?
We already talked about this

1052
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,280
universal exaltation.
Right, right.

1053
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:00,600
We'll get there.
He'll get there.

1054
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,440
Andrew Tate's good enough for
you, right?

1055
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:08,320
So, but here's the thing.
Let's say that both girls go

1056
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,760
with you and they're like, yeah,
we're not, we'd rather be

1057
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,080
polygamous wives to you than
than marry Andrew Tate, right?

1058
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,480
How's Andrew Kate going to feel?
Angry, probably.

1059
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,880
He might feel a little bit, you
know, simpish, right?

1060
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,080
What if there was another guy on
the island and he was also a lot

1061
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,880
like Andrew Tate and he didn't
get a girl either?

1062
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,640
And now you got Andrew, Kate and
some other incel.

1063
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,560
Yeah, they would probably team
up and both be mad, but they.

1064
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:37,880
Probably team up all the bad
well, but what this is

1065
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,240
suggesting is.
And what are they who are

1066
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,720
deprived of the wholeness that
comes from the relationship of

1067
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,440
husband and wife?
What about the incels dude?

1068
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:48,640
Right.
Well, they are driven into

1069
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:50,920
excesses and then into unnatural
love.

1070
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,760
So, so they're basically making
the the contention here, the

1071
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:58,040
Nimmenha record.
And again, I want to be very

1072
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,120
clear on this.
The Nimmenha record supports the

1073
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,440
idea that when men practice
plural marriage, it forces other

1074
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:07,760
men to become gay.
Is that what I'm picking up?

1075
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,280
Yeah, that's what I'm picking
up.

1076
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:12,560
Yeah, that's what I'm picking up
too.

1077
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,720
And they spell it out so in
their endowment, right?

1078
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,840
This is the relation of Heavenly
Father and Heavenly Mother.

1079
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,960
Chapter 4 starting on 29.
Satan says, look at what your

1080
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,320
sons and daughter do.
The stronger men take all the

1081
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,240
young women, their sisters,
daughters, and granddaughters to

1082
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:31,800
their own lodge and make wives
of them.

1083
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:33,840
Then Adam counselled with his
sons.

1084
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,400
Adam says this thing is not
right unless the Creator himself

1085
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,480
commands it.
You have not sought the presence

1086
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,280
of the Creator.
For whom then have you received

1087
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,960
this practice?
And the mob says the old one is

1088
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:46,480
wise.
He has taught us this thing.

1089
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,040
And Adam says Satan has
flattered you.

1090
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,200
This thing is not wise.
You do it only to gratify

1091
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:54,640
yourself, so that you do not
have to control your passions.

1092
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,880
No good can come of it.
Do you not see that God has

1093
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,600
given us a pattern?
We call his name Elohim,

1094
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,880
Heavenly Father and Mother.
We call Elohim Heavenly Mother.

1095
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,400
It is not Elohim Heavenly Father
and many mothers.

1096
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,160
The mob says you are foolish and
follow a foolish path.

1097
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:14,440
Soon you will not be strong and
you will lose the your place

1098
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,280
among us.
The old One has shown us how the

1099
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:19,360
strong survive, and you should
also listen to him and obey his

1100
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,120
counsel.
He has taught us that there is

1101
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,120
but one truth and only one way.
By following this way, in strict

1102
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:28,440
obedience to the voice of the
Old One, we will be strong and

1103
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:30,960
we will rule the earth.
Adam says.

1104
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,600
You will bring suffering upon
all the people of this strength

1105
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:37,920
and wisdom.
Then let me remain forever weak

1106
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,360
and stupid.
Adam's got a wit, narrator says.

1107
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,280
Then many saw the error of the
thing that Satan had taught

1108
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:47,880
them, and they turned to the
lodge of Adam and Eve, and began

1109
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:52,560
again to give thanks at the
sacred hearth, But the majority

1110
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:55,520
followed the way of the world.
Then did many of the younger men

1111
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,520
become angry because there were
not enough woman for all to take

1112
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:04,240
wife because of this wickedness
of the way of Satan, and they

1113
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,520
separated themselves from among
the people after that.

1114
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,880
So this insults form a club.
After that every young man who

1115
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,800
could not find a wife, because
they were all given in marriage

1116
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:18,720
to the stronger men, joined the
lodge of the young men and lived

1117
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,600
apart from the people.
They listened to Satan, and he

1118
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,520
was often seen screwing back and
forth between the lodges of the

1119
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,120
mighty and the young men.
And the young men began to

1120
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,840
accuse Satan because they were
alone, and they found fault with

1121
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:32,760
him.
And Satan says you are foolish,

1122
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,280
you young men.
The strong are made to dominate

1123
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:36,800
the weak.
You know.

1124
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:38,720
This is the truth.
The stronger men ought to

1125
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,600
satisfy, the stronger men ought
to satisfy themselves.

1126
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:47,200
Satisfy yourselves as befitting
the strong and you weak.

1127
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:49,760
Men ought to submit yourselves
as do women.

1128
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:52,440
Whoa.
So Satan's like, all right,

1129
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:54,720
well, the strong men should be
plogamists, and you weak men,

1130
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:59,960
well, you should, you should be
homosexuals.

1131
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,200
Dude.
Then the lodge of the young men

1132
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:07,160
became a place of evil, and even
Satan ceased to visit there.

1133
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:10,960
After some time following the
wicked council of Satan, many of

1134
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,760
the young men began to sicken
and many died.

1135
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,480
I guess AIDS.
Yeah, something.

1136
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,320
Those that remained were very
angry, and they rose up in one

1137
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,320
body and made war upon the
lodges of the Mighty, because

1138
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,680
they were many.
And the Mighty were caught alone

1139
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,920
with their wives.
The angry young men came through

1140
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,400
them like a strong wind through
the willows, and they killed the

1141
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:33,600
mighty men, and took their wives
to themselves.

1142
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,120
And all the children of the
mighty men they made their

1143
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:39,160
slaves to do labor for them.
And Satan says, See, it is

1144
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,480
exactly as I taught you, Only
the strong may rule.

1145
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:44,840
And they made Satan their chief,
and called their lodge the Snake

1146
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:46,720
lodge.
But in all these things Adam and

1147
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:48,640
Eve kept aloof of all the
people.

1148
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,240
And because Adam was not
considered a mighty man, the

1149
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,720
Snake watch people do not assail
them, but all others they did

1150
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,280
torment until all of the mighty
men were destroyed from off the

1151
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:02,440
face of the earth.
Holy crap, I must have slept

1152
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:03,440
through that.
Part of the endowment.

1153
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:15,680
Dude, there is like so much to
unpack in that little who.

1154
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:23,440
So let's just get this straight.
According to their theology and

1155
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:28,440
their endowment, polygamy is one
of the worst evils to ever hit

1156
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:33,480
the world and introduced.
Basically introduces

1157
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:39,040
homosexuality and introduces
slavery and introduces murder.

1158
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:44,840
Wow, I don't see how if you're a
fundamentalist, you could read

1159
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:50,160
this and be OK with this, right?
This this has got some severe

1160
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:52,760
problems.
I mean honestly, even if you

1161
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,840
were anti polygamist, I don't
know how you could read this and

1162
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,040
think this is a a rational
argument.

1163
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:02,160
Yeah wow.
But stare nonetheless.

1164
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:08,160
So some more understanding here
of, of, of plural marriage, just

1165
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:10,200
to make sure we really
understand it clear 'cause this

1166
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:12,480
comes up a lot.
I don't know why for people that

1167
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:16,840
don't practice this, some reason
all of their prophets need to,

1168
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:23,120
to repeat it again and again.
But here we are and we've got

1169
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:26,440
one of the three Nephites,
Timothy preaching to the

1170
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,720
Nemenhan.
Behold is Nantai, volume 3,

1171
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,280
Nantai chapter 653.
Behold, I would exhort you now

1172
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,080
take this knowledge.
He's just taught why polygamy is

1173
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:39,080
wrong.
Take this knowledge and the

1174
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:42,040
consideration of the subject and
subject it to the confirmation

1175
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:45,000
of the Holy Ghost.
I would ask you to request of

1176
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,880
the Holy Ghost even a vision of
Father Abraham as he is today,

1177
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:52,880
and tell me, what do you see?
Do you see him alone or in the

1178
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:57,240
arms of his eternal companion?
Or do you see him in one day

1179
01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:00,800
with one wife and in another in
the arms of another woman and in

1180
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,160
the eternities?
How does he divide his days and

1181
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:07,280
his affections?
If you can't imagine polygamy,

1182
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:11,760
it must be false then, right?
If you can't imagine how it, how

1183
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:17,120
it can function in a way that's
basically it's prey.

1184
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,760
Prey upon your, your, your, your
western bias.

1185
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:22,560
OK.
I'm, I'm going to be honest

1186
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:26,760
here, this is, this is starting
to smack of a guy who quite

1187
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:30,280
frankly can't wrap his mind
around it and he's projecting.

1188
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:37,360
Yeah, yeah, I makes sense.
So for 54, I say unto you, if

1189
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:41,040
you have the spirit of
revelation in you, OK, this is,

1190
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:45,400
let's apply this to ourselves,
OK, As I asked this, ask if you

1191
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:46,480
have the spirit of revelation in
you.

1192
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,800
If you have the Spirit of
revelation in you, yeah, if you

1193
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:54,120
can claim the gifts of the
Spirit, then you will declare

1194
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:57,840
unto me the same as that which
the Spirit has shown unto me.

1195
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:04,160
Yeah, you shall not deny that
Father Abraham now resides in

1196
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:08,760
the bosom of eternity, and is is
become Elohim with the wife of

1197
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,200
his bosom, even that same woman
whom he made covenant, bound by

1198
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:15,120
the Holy Spirit of promise.
And you shall declare unto me

1199
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:18,760
that the covenant that they made
was one to another, then they

1200
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,920
made one to another, is owned by
the Lord, and has become His own

1201
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:23,359
covenant where they are
concerned.

1202
01:08:23,359 --> 01:08:25,479
Wherefore heaven and earth may
pass away, but the covenant

1203
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,800
shall remain, because it is His
own covenant pertaining unto

1204
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,319
them.
But behold, those other women

1205
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:35,800
whom God gave unto him in order
to fulfill his own purposes, has

1206
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:41,160
Abraham, Abraham given into the
hands of their own husbands,

1207
01:08:41,359 --> 01:08:45,720
with Thanksgiving in his heart
for the part which God did ask

1208
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:50,000
him to perform in his great
work, or on behalf of his

1209
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:54,560
brother?
Oh, so we got an extra extra

1210
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:58,600
explanation for for something
Abraham did, Huh?

1211
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:00,520
So you so.
Yeah.

1212
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,040
So you're going to get to give
your plural watch.

1213
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:07,200
You get, you only get to pick
one, Dave, but you get to give

1214
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:11,120
one of your other ones to some
in cell who didn't get a chance.

1215
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:14,279
And isn't that isn't that holy?
No.

1216
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,800
And if this is still hard for
you to understand, is this hard

1217
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,560
for you to understand?
Yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty

1218
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:23,240
tough, I'm not going to lie.
Yeah, I would ask you to

1219
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:25,520
consider in what other ways the
Lord does require the children

1220
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:30,200
of men to act for on behalf of
others and order to form perform

1221
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:34,600
His holy purposes unto them.
I mean, I guess baptizing,

1222
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,160
giving, giving somebody a
blessing, baptizing them doesn't

1223
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:42,240
count raising, raising your
having relations with their wife

1224
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:45,520
and raising children unto them.
And it's all the same, all the

1225
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:47,800
same.
Dude, cool.

1226
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:53,000
So, and it it gets more clear to
where this is goes.

1227
01:09:53,399 --> 01:09:56,720
So now we're at generations of
the Minnesota chapter 2, volume

1228
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,760
6.
This is again, they're they're

1229
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:05,840
now organized in Missouri.
And narratively what's what

1230
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:09,800
happens here is there is a
people nearby them who have a

1231
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,920
Viking visitor, I believe.
And after the Viking goes back,

1232
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:20,000
they all get sick and I think
it's like 3/4 of their young men

1233
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:25,640
and, and like 4/5 of their adult
men all die to this disease.

1234
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:31,920
And so now you have this huge
population of, of widows and

1235
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:35,320
they, they live kind of nearby
to where the Nemenhah are living

1236
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:41,200
here in Minnis Taurit.
So this is what happens.

1237
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:44,360
Oh, well, well, well, what
happens is they, here's what

1238
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:48,560
happens, all these widows pour
in and the demon are like, what

1239
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:50,840
are we going to do about this?
Because they've, they've had

1240
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:53,600
problems in the past with a lot
of refugees.

1241
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:55,760
And it's a, it's a burden upon
their system.

1242
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,240
And so like, we've got to do
something about this.

1243
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:03,560
And they asked their prophet,
we'll go, go upon the way and

1244
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:05,040
ask the Lord what we should do
about it.

1245
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:09,280
And this is so he does and Jesus
comes to him on the way.

1246
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:11,840
And this is what Jesus tells him
to do about all these widows,

1247
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:16,320
each family that taketh into his
into its harbor.

1248
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:19,560
Any of those who seek refuge
among the Nemenhab Minnesorat.

1249
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,440
And they are not required to do
this, but as many as do shall be

1250
01:11:23,440 --> 01:11:25,160
blessed.
Behold, the woman shall be

1251
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:28,080
joined with the family with a
ceremony of adoption.

1252
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:31,320
But behold, let them build yet a
separate house for their new

1253
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:33,920
families and for the man and the
woman.

1254
01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:37,920
For the man and the woman shall
not be man and wife in the way

1255
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:41,120
of the world.
Yeah, they shall be joined in a

1256
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:44,400
type of adoption and they shall
be numbered among the Nemenhan

1257
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,000
families, but they shall not be
as the first man and first

1258
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:48,920
woman.
So this is interesting.

1259
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:53,440
So they provide a case study
here, a perfect case study of of

1260
01:11:53,440 --> 01:11:57,000
where?
I mean even an anti polygamy

1261
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,400
person would see like well it it
might make sense in this kind of

1262
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:01,280
a context, right?
Right.

1263
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:03,600
Right.
Like if there's ever going to be

1264
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:07,920
a time when Cod would authorize
polygamy, some reason God

1265
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:11,960
authorized polygamy for, for,
for some of these guys.

1266
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:14,600
And it was a disaster to them
and, and they didn't really even

1267
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:19,240
need it.
But these people, no.

1268
01:12:19,480 --> 01:12:21,720
No.
No polygamy, fear not to take

1269
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:24,040
unto thee the widows and the
fatherless, for this is true

1270
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:25,760
religion.
But remember, I shall justify

1271
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:27,080
charity and love, blah blah
blah.

1272
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:32,080
Behold, this is a marriage of
necessity and of charity.

1273
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:35,040
But the union cannot be sealed
by the Holy Spirit of promise,

1274
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:36,720
right?
You remember theologically you

1275
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:41,240
only get one.
Therefore let them who have ears

1276
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:43,240
to hear, listen to the words of
my mouth, sayeth the Lord.

1277
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:47,080
The love and charity sealeth
unto them, unto the man and the

1278
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:50,440
woman, but the man and the woman
sealeth not, for I will it not.

1279
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:54,760
So why not?
Why can't a man be sealed to

1280
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:59,160
multiple women?
Because God wills it not, that's

1281
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:01,520
why.
All right, all right.

1282
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:06,120
I mean, that is a theology.
But behold, Yep, it's a

1283
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:09,880
theology.
Behold, my servant, I know thy

1284
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,640
heart.
Thou reddest that which is found

1285
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:15,320
in the Scripture concerning one
time and people, and thou

1286
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:19,680
wonderest, why do I command one
thing for them and another for

1287
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:22,120
thee?
For bear this judgement for thy

1288
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:24,240
sake.
Thou knowest only the ways and

1289
01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:26,800
customs of thy own time, and
cannot but speculate upon that

1290
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:30,040
which is not the plight upon
that which death applied to the

1291
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:33,520
ancients.
And in other words, don't ask.

1292
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:38,600
Yeah, yeah, no, this, this
totally turns God into a

1293
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:42,680
respecter of persons as well.
And then in 36 it gets better,

1294
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,120
it gets better.
Be not troubled in my heart, for

1295
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:48,800
there is no changeability in
this thing, isn't it?

1296
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:52,080
Behold, I had given to the them
wives and concubines, that they

1297
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:55,720
might build a nation quickly in
a place where the nation could

1298
01:13:55,720 --> 01:14:00,200
have easily ceased to be.
Yeah, to save the nation, I will

1299
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,280
call upon men and women to
sacrifice even their own

1300
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:07,040
happiness.
That's.

1301
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:10,960
That's a doozy.
To me, that's a doozy.

1302
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:15,440
Justin, I'm just going to ask
you a question.

1303
01:14:15,440 --> 01:14:18,200
You've seen my family.
We've had dinners together.

1304
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:21,360
We've hung out together.
Do my wife's look unhappy?

1305
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,920
Do I look unhappy?
I mean, I've got a pretty

1306
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:28,360
healthy family right now.
That's more that's more because

1307
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:31,840
the girls are awesome than me.
But I'm just saying that that

1308
01:14:32,440 --> 01:14:37,880
this idea here really, really,
really sticks in my craw that

1309
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,440
OK, you know what?
Sometimes plural marriage is

1310
01:14:41,440 --> 01:14:45,400
going to have to happen.
But just know that in the end,

1311
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:48,280
I'm going to force you to give
up all but one.

1312
01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:52,880
And then also, you're not going
to be happy living this way.

1313
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:57,400
I'm requiring to sacrifice your
happiness in order to do this.

1314
01:14:58,120 --> 01:15:00,600
You know what?
Yeah.

1315
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:03,400
Oh geez.
Just that, that little high

1316
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:06,360
underlying section right there,
it just blows me away.

1317
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:08,800
You need to save a nation.
I will call upon men and women

1318
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:10,760
to sacrifice even their own
happiness.

1319
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,440
Is that the plan of salvation?
Is that the gospel?

1320
01:15:13,440 --> 01:15:15,520
Is that the good news?
Hey, good news.

1321
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:18,240
That's that's.
If you've ever seen Futurama,

1322
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:20,640
that's Professor Farnsworth.
Good news, everybody.

1323
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:22,040
It's never good news.
Right.

1324
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:24,240
Yeah.
Yeah.

1325
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:27,120
No, look, I believe what the
Lord said, that men are, that

1326
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:28,920
men might have joy.
Right.

1327
01:15:29,440 --> 01:15:33,160
And plural marriage has brought
me great joy.

1328
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:38,880
My wives have said to many
people it brings them great joy.

1329
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:44,840
And so the dude who wrote this,
and I'm sorry, I'll call it now,

1330
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:48,880
it wasn't God.
He didn't know what he's talking

1331
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:50,360
about.
He's got no clue.

1332
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:53,520
No clue.
He knows about as much, I

1333
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:58,600
guarantee, about plural marriage
as I do advanced physics.

1334
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:03,120
Yeah, well.
This sticks in my craw.

1335
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:06,080
This it.
It is wild.

1336
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:08,520
It is wild.
It it doesn't make sense to me.

1337
01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:11,320
I I don't worship a God that
calls upon men and women to

1338
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:14,520
sacrifice their happiness in
this life to save a nation.

1339
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:20,640
I believe in a God that leaves
the 99 and goes after the one.

1340
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:23,720
Right.
Look, there's no doubt God

1341
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:27,000
requires hard things from us,
right?

1342
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:28,600
At times.
Right.

1343
01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:35,800
But I don't believe God would
would institute a system of

1344
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:37,800
marriage that was designed to be
miserable.

1345
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:42,360
Here's the thing there is sorrow
and joy are not opposites.

1346
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:44,160
Right, right.
I I.

1347
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:48,120
Believe you can be in a state of
sorrow but still have joy.

1348
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:52,160
You still have peace.
You can still have a connection

1349
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:53,120
with the Spirit.
Right.

1350
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:58,640
Unhappiness, though, that is not
what we were created for.

1351
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:02,440
No.
And we were taught that

1352
01:17:02,440 --> 01:17:04,880
wickedness never was happiness.
Right.

1353
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:10,160
If that's true, if that's true,
if wickedness never was

1354
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:12,760
happiness, then if God asked us
to do something that makes us

1355
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:16,280
unhappy, right, He's asking us
to do wickedness.

1356
01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:20,840
Yep.
And yeah, that's not the God

1357
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:26,360
that I worship.
And yeah, so he tells us.

1358
01:17:26,360 --> 01:17:28,920
Now, this thing shall be a
stumbling block for many among

1359
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:29,920
you.
Yeah.

1360
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:33,000
And in the latter days, many
shall question the Lord in this

1361
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:35,680
thing.
Behold, they shall ponder the

1362
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:37,920
things they shall read in the
holy books and in the

1363
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:40,440
commandments of God, and they
shall apply them according to

1364
01:17:40,440 --> 01:17:43,640
their understanding.
Yeah, even the elect of God whom

1365
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:46,920
I call to do my own work, shall
be confused in their hearts

1366
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,960
concerning this matter.
And in the last days when I

1367
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:53,280
shall bring again thy records,
many shall be offended by these,

1368
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:54,880
right?
By these writings, by their

1369
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:58,040
writings, because they shall
have already interpreted that

1370
01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:01,000
which they have read in other
places to have meaning and

1371
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:02,960
understanding that they should
not have.

1372
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:07,160
And many will be LED astray by
their own understanding, for

1373
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:09,280
they seek not my face nor my
counsel.

1374
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:12,320
You know, I know that you're a
podcast, Dave, but I want to ask

1375
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:13,960
you a question here.
Yeah.

1376
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:19,360
Did you ask God before entering
into the principal?

1377
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:23,600
I certainly did not more than
once.

1378
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:27,160
To make sure I was doing it
correctly, I asked the Lord.

1379
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:31,400
I got on my sorry if you.
Want go ahead.

1380
01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:34,920
I got on my knees and asked.
Amber got on her knees and

1381
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:37,040
asked.
Tanya got on her knees and asked

1382
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:40,800
as well.
Yes, we consulted the Lord in

1383
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:43,800
this.
Right.

1384
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:47,720
And I haven't entered into the
principal myself and don't know

1385
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:51,080
when or if I will because I
consult the Lord on these things

1386
01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:55,040
too.
I'm not looking for an extra

1387
01:18:55,040 --> 01:19:01,400
wife, but I am willing to take
an extra wife if it's God's will

1388
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:07,480
for me.
And so the default here is

1389
01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:12,120
absolutely not leaning upon my
own understanding of old

1390
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:14,400
scriptures.
So let me ask you this.

1391
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,560
Does this offend you?
Does that.

1392
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:19,520
Predict it will offend you.
Does it offend you?

1393
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:27,480
The the connotation of of that
thing up top there about their

1394
01:19:27,480 --> 01:19:29,640
own happiness.
It irritates me a little bit,

1395
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:33,120
mainly because it it
delegitimize it.

1396
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:36,920
It attempts to delegitimize what
I do but offend me.

1397
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:39,280
No, I think it's laughable in
some ways.

1398
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:43,720
I worry for those who might be
on the fence and read this sort

1399
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:49,040
of thing right, but I wouldn't
say necessarily offended.

1400
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:52,760
OK, tell you what, I'm offended.
Are you?

1401
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:57,600
I'll tell you why, because I
know a lot of, I know numerous,

1402
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:03,400
numerous good families living
the principal and I know for a

1403
01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:07,400
fact, I know for a fact that
they asked God.

1404
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,000
They entered into that in an
attempt.

1405
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:12,360
To follow God.
They prayed about it.

1406
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:14,280
They sought the Lord's counsel
on it.

1407
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:19,560
And I am offended that this
writing here is saying, no, they

1408
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:21,360
didn't.
Yeah.

1409
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:24,160
Who are they to judge whether
somebody has sincerely prayed

1410
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:26,920
about that or not?
Yeah, yeah.

1411
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:29,800
It's funny.
You know, Justin, it was really

1412
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:33,960
funny because apparently if you
take the Nimmenha record to be

1413
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:38,160
true, you're fine with replacing
all sorts of ordinances with

1414
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:43,760
sweat lodges and sundances and
getting baptized with Nets and

1415
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,240
everything is fine and
everything is good except this

1416
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:49,600
principle.
Right.

1417
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:52,680
And it's not just that this
principle isn't good, it's this,

1418
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:55,400
this is it's, it's, it's
completely off limits.

1419
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:57,760
Yep, Yep.
So.

1420
01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:01,200
Don't worry, it's going to get a
little bit better because we're

1421
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:04,760
going to have somebody come in
and and represent us and our

1422
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:06,680
views on this.
So I'll skip reading.

1423
01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:08,800
I'm going to skip down here
though.

1424
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,240
Yep.
It's 40.

1425
01:21:12,240 --> 01:21:17,280
Oh, we jumped to 44.
So this is the that that's was

1426
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:18,680
the word of the Lord to their
prophet.

1427
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:21,480
Afterwards, their prophet now
comes and shares it with their

1428
01:21:21,480 --> 01:21:25,360
counsel.
OK, And he shares it with their

1429
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:26,920
counsel.
It's basically the same thing.

1430
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:31,320
Oh no, this is still Jesus.
This is still Jesus.

1431
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:33,120
I'm sorry.
It's still going on about it.

1432
01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:38,400
So, OK, so let's clarify this.
It's in 45.

1433
01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:40,360
I'm just jump to the jump to the
highlights.

1434
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,960
And I do perceive that some of
the men of Nemenha have looked

1435
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:46,680
upon the widow and the
fatherless, and have been that

1436
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:48,920
have been created because of
this calamity to make them

1437
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:50,640
wives, as many as pleased with
them.

1438
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:54,360
And they justify themselves in
this because of the custom of

1439
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:58,400
the Tuilha, that a woman is not
without shame unless she is

1440
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:01,440
married and can lay claim to her
husband.

1441
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:05,400
Behold, this is abomination, for
they do it to satisfy their own

1442
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:07,480
lusts.
So Jesus is saying, I know that

1443
01:22:07,480 --> 01:22:11,840
some of your people already got
it into their head that they

1444
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:14,600
want to take these, some of
these widows to wife.

1445
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:20,960
And that's an abomination, for
it is This is my will concerning

1446
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:23,080
them.
If there is found any man who

1447
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:26,440
taketh unto himself women among
you, and justify the taking of

1448
01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:29,240
many wives, as was done of old,
and is still done among the

1449
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:32,680
children of unrighteousness, it
is a perversion, and shall be

1450
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:37,400
deemed an injury upon the woman.
Crime, in other words, and

1451
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:41,680
children, and upon the woman,
the children, and upon the

1452
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:43,920
foundation.
What is this foundation you're

1453
01:22:43,920 --> 01:22:47,640
sitting against?
I don't know wherefore let them

1454
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:51,640
stand before the council, as all
who make injury upon other

1455
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:53,760
another, and defend their own
case.

1456
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:56,880
And if the council findeth them
guilty, they must repent, or let

1457
01:22:56,880 --> 01:22:59,040
them be cast out from among the
people.

1458
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:02,880
Let them live as they seemeth
good, for they make a law unto

1459
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:06,840
themselves, but they shall not
pollute my people Zion.

1460
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:11,880
Wow, so.
We're now adding to the legal

1461
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:13,800
code.
Yep, Yep.

1462
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:18,760
And so.
Well, I love, I love how they

1463
01:23:18,760 --> 01:23:23,880
say that that plural marriage is
an injury unto their unto women

1464
01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:28,760
and children and children.
And and the foundation,

1465
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:30,960
apparently it injuries the
foundation.

1466
01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:34,360
I guess it injuries Jesus.
Is Christ not supposed to be our

1467
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:37,520
foundation?
I think that's the foundation

1468
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:39,480
I'm going to stop.
I'm not going to do that.

1469
01:23:39,480 --> 01:23:41,960
OK, let's let's.
It's hard, isn't it?

1470
01:23:42,440 --> 01:23:44,920
It's hard, hard.
It's hard, OK.

1471
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:45,960
We're going to make it through
this.

1472
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:48,400
We're almost there.
OK, I'm going to jump down to

1473
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:50,240
verse 50.
So they they share this stuff,

1474
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:55,080
right?
And, and he repeats, actually,

1475
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:58,360
I'm just going to skip that.
He basically tells them, he

1476
01:23:58,360 --> 01:24:01,560
comes out of the revelation and
tells the people what it should

1477
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:04,960
be, OK, how they need to do it,
what the rules are.

1478
01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:14,000
Oh, wait, no, it's not there.
OK, so and and he tells them

1479
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:15,480
that also this is supposed to be
a law.

1480
01:24:16,160 --> 01:24:19,280
And as he explains, Yeah.
And and so for people who try to

1481
01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:22,160
live polygamy with these widows.
Yeah.

1482
01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:25,120
And he is to be cast out from
among the people if he so much

1483
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:28,880
as teaches such things.
And behold, the same applies

1484
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:30,920
even to the woman who teaches
such injury.

1485
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:34,640
Wherefore it appears to me that
the Lord will sanction the

1486
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:37,800
Leverite marriage, for it is a
type of adoption, but nothing

1487
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:39,840
else.
They start calling this the the

1488
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:43,160
the Leverite marriage.
Not the leverite marriage.

1489
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:45,400
It's like that's the exact
opposite of the love right

1490
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:46,840
marriage.
Can I just the?

1491
01:24:46,840 --> 01:24:50,160
Point of the love right marriage
was to produce children to the

1492
01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:55,040
brother.
Do OK, I, I, I got to say this.

1493
01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:58,800
I I'm sorry, I got to say this.
Somebody hurt the guy who wrote

1494
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:02,600
this.
This dude got rejected

1495
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:05,320
somewhere.
I don't know how, but I just

1496
01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:10,400
know because he, this dude has a
major bone to pick with the

1497
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:14,400
principal of plural marriage.
And to me, I think that dude got

1498
01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:16,320
spurned somewhere.
I'm just saying, all right?

1499
01:25:19,440 --> 01:25:25,120
All right, OK, so he shares it,
the share, he shows it to the

1500
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:28,240
council, OK, And one of the
council rises up.

1501
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:31,800
OK, This winniset.
He rose up from his seat, took

1502
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:36,280
the feather, and spoke these
words on behalf of Dave Sanders.

1503
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:40,880
Behold, I do not hold with
covering the spirit with that

1504
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:42,920
which has already been
established by written word.

1505
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:46,720
Behold, this council has made a
thing law, and it is the

1506
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:49,080
prerogative of this, of this
council to do so.

1507
01:25:49,480 --> 01:25:52,240
But I do not believe in the
authority of this council in

1508
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:56,680
dictating my religion.
Behold, who and how many women I

1509
01:25:56,680 --> 01:26:00,800
marry and join to myself is a
matter of my religion as

1510
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:04,880
doctrine and as precept.
I am satisfied that the Lord

1511
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:06,920
spoke adequately to our
ancestors.

1512
01:26:06,920 --> 01:26:10,280
Yeah, and I believe that what He
speaks to 1.

1513
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:14,840
He speaks to all.
Wherefore what shall be done

1514
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:18,120
with me, and with them that
follow my example, and have

1515
01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:22,200
taken unto themselves the widows
of Twil, Ha, because they've

1516
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:25,280
already done it even before they
went and asked for.

1517
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:27,600
They are my wives, and I have
lane with them.

1518
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:30,800
In the manner of husband and
wife, I'll be it, if they

1519
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:33,000
should, if they should have
conceived.

1520
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:35,760
Shall the children born of our
union be given to another?

1521
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:38,960
Shall I not have claim upon the
fruit of my own loins?

1522
01:26:39,480 --> 01:26:43,080
Behold, am I not the head of my
house?

1523
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:46,520
How then can you make a division
of my household?

1524
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:49,840
Now I am not alone in this
question.

1525
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:54,040
Behold, many have done as I have
done, and taken in the widows

1526
01:26:54,040 --> 01:26:57,080
and the children of our brethren
who have died, and we have made

1527
01:26:57,080 --> 01:27:00,040
them our wives and our children.
And if the Lord wanted us to

1528
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:03,360
keep ourselves from them, then
why did He teach us differently

1529
01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:06,680
in the holy books?
Behold, I do not believe that He

1530
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:08,920
did.
I believe that He saw our day

1531
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:11,400
and our necessity, and provided
doctrine for us.

1532
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:15,640
Yeah, He taught that the
righteous should build up his

1533
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:19,160
posterity and righteousness,
just as He built up nations in

1534
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:22,000
righteousness.
I stand as representative of

1535
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:25,480
those who have been, who have
done as I am done, because of

1536
01:27:25,480 --> 01:27:27,960
their understanding of the
teachings of the Lord to our

1537
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:30,520
ancestors.
Behold, you may not take our

1538
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:32,480
religion from us by making a new
law.

1539
01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:37,280
I kind of like this dude, yeah.
Right.

1540
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:42,600
I mean, it kind of makes sense,
kind of makes sense, which

1541
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:45,080
again, right, like we did that
law section.

1542
01:27:45,480 --> 01:27:48,640
But basically he's saying that
we're also there's no free

1543
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:51,920
speech.
Not only is it wrong to practice

1544
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:55,440
plural marriage, if you even
preach it, man or woman, you're

1545
01:27:55,440 --> 01:28:00,520
cast out, you're out.
You have no right to preach your

1546
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:02,920
convictions.
Now, the Nephites didn't do that

1547
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:05,200
when they came up with somebody
who had contrary beliefs.

1548
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:11,280
Their prophet was able, by the
power of God, to witness the

1549
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:14,600
truthfulness and to testify the
truthfulness of his theology.

1550
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:19,360
Right.
These guys, though, apparently

1551
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:22,440
they need to cast out something
like this.

1552
01:28:22,760 --> 01:28:25,640
I mean, I mean, I mean,
seriously, I'm reading this and

1553
01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:29,320
it's just like, it kind of like
makes me think as you know, I

1554
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:31,560
don't know, this is my personal
political stuff, I guess, but it

1555
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:34,960
kind of makes me think of like
a, a Ron Paul or or Ron

1556
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:36,320
DeSantis.
Right.

1557
01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:44,360
I mean, what a speech but or,
and, and when Winnisset had said

1558
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:48,080
these words, behold, I did
answer him saying behold, you

1559
01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:50,680
know that the Council has voted
on the matter and the law is

1560
01:28:50,680 --> 01:29:01,560
added.
Close curtains does over Yeah,

1561
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:05,880
too late now.
The law will be given to the

1562
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:09,680
people to ratify.
And you also know that if the

1563
01:29:09,680 --> 01:29:13,600
people do accept this new law,
you and those who followed your

1564
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:17,400
example and took the widows of
quil Ha unto yourselves as wives

1565
01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:21,320
in the manner of men, must find
a way to obey, to abide by the

1566
01:29:21,320 --> 01:29:23,840
law.
But behold that what you have

1567
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:26,560
done was accomplished prior to
receiving the word of wisdom

1568
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:28,080
from the Lord concerning the
matter.

1569
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:30,840
Could the people ratify the new
law?

1570
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:33,600
And we can only ask you to set
aside your wives.

1571
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:36,800
We can.
If the people ratify the new

1572
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:41,120
law, we can only ask you to set
aside the wives of your bed and

1573
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:45,320
before them and become for them
the loverite husband.

1574
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:47,960
If you will do this, then there
is no disturbance.

1575
01:29:48,200 --> 01:29:52,360
What say you when said for you?
Well, know that the people will

1576
01:29:52,360 --> 01:29:54,960
hardly vote against the Council
of the Great, the Council of the

1577
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:57,240
Great Council of the great
Council of the Minnesota.

1578
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:01,640
So in other words, yeah, we've
got the political power.

1579
01:30:02,440 --> 01:30:05,240
We've got the political power.
The votes are already in.

1580
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:07,160
You know that the people are
going to ratify it because they

1581
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:09,000
do everything we they're going
to do everything.

1582
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:13,120
We, we, we tell them, and I
mean, technically you violated

1583
01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:18,240
this law before it was a law,
but it's on you to find a way to

1584
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:21,320
abide by it, even if we pass it
retroactively.

1585
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:25,360
So you know, if you'll repent of
this right now, if you'll

1586
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:28,320
forsake this immediately, you
know, and make them leverite

1587
01:30:28,320 --> 01:30:30,960
wives, which makes no sense
because if they were leverite

1588
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:32,680
wives, they would have to
produce children for them.

1589
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:35,720
That's the whole point of the
left, right being a right

1590
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:37,520
husband.
But regardless, right?

1591
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:41,040
And he doesn't say what'll
happen if they don't.

1592
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:43,160
But you know, the implication is
pretty clear.

1593
01:30:43,520 --> 01:30:47,240
I was going to say, are are are
these some of like the the

1594
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:49,960
ancestors of the people that
would persecute the Mormons in

1595
01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:53,360
the 1800s?
I don't know.

1596
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:56,680
Making laws against polygamy and
you know.

1597
01:30:57,560 --> 01:31:04,240
But supposedly the the
translator Philip Landis, I

1598
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:06,400
believe he claims he's a
descendant of the Nemenha

1599
01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:11,440
himself.
Oh, good, good, good and legit,

1600
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:13,040
right?
So how?

1601
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:14,240
Is when is it going to answer
that?

1602
01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:17,760
Behold, the number of widows and
children that have come into our

1603
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:20,720
village has yet to be counted.
They are so great.

1604
01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:23,960
Yay, the catastrophe was so
great among the Tuilha as to

1605
01:31:23,960 --> 01:31:27,000
cause that nation to completely
collapse in their economy and

1606
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:29,600
their villages.
And the number of refugees is

1607
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:31,560
great even in the 10s of
thousands.

1608
01:31:32,040 --> 01:31:34,440
Now I see that the Lord has
provided a way of dealing with

1609
01:31:34,440 --> 01:31:36,640
the situation.
But I do not believe the word

1610
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:39,840
which you have taught this
council, words which were your

1611
01:31:39,840 --> 01:31:42,240
own, but you put them in the
mouth of God.

1612
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:47,320
And I say unto you that the twil
ha widows ought to be consulted

1613
01:31:47,320 --> 01:31:50,040
on this thing.
Many of them have accepted that

1614
01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:54,280
to be wed to one man, and have
accepted to be wed to one man

1615
01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:56,880
and share him with many women,
is not so bad as to be alone.

1616
01:31:57,280 --> 01:32:00,280
What shall you say to them that
you call them malefactor and

1617
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:03,000
cast them out?
And I ask you again, what is to

1618
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:06,320
become of the children conceived
already in such unions as have

1619
01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:08,680
already taken place?
Shall they not know their

1620
01:32:08,680 --> 01:32:11,800
fathers?
It is a hard thing that you put

1621
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:14,160
upon us.
Yeah, it is hard that you should

1622
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:17,040
seek to dictate our religion and
our most personal and private

1623
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:19,480
lives.
Behold, I can only say that if

1624
01:32:19,480 --> 01:32:22,680
the Nemenhah of Minnesota ratify
this new law, I shall take my

1625
01:32:22,680 --> 01:32:25,240
family and all the families that
followed me and I shall move

1626
01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:28,080
with them into some new country
and we shall build up a new

1627
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:31,360
nation after the dictates of our
own heart and confidence.

1628
01:32:31,920 --> 01:32:35,680
And thus it was and it was.
They didn't have to address any

1629
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:39,240
of the issues that Minnesota
presents.

1630
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:44,240
He doesn't, he doesn't make them
cast him out like they would

1631
01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:46,520
have by law.
He, he goes willingly on his own

1632
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:49,760
as if it's his own thing.
It's a complete cop out.

1633
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:53,160
It sets up this really
interesting case study in law

1634
01:32:53,720 --> 01:32:57,840
and their application of some of
the more complex theology

1635
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:00,800
ramifications of forbidding
plural marriage.

1636
01:33:01,320 --> 01:33:04,000
And then it just completely just
drops it.

1637
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:07,920
Wow.
But but I'll have you know that

1638
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:11,520
the even though they were
essentially cast out, the

1639
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:16,000
Nemenha of Minnesota at least
gave them provisions and help

1640
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:18,920
them establish a a new
settlement somewhere else.

1641
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:23,400
And, and it just so happens they
end up becoming friends with

1642
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:29,000
some rebellious neighbors too,
who were previously kidnapping

1643
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:32,200
women and children for the sex
trade slavery.

1644
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:37,760
But they they become friends
with the polygamists and don't

1645
01:33:37,760 --> 01:33:40,440
know why they had to.
What the implication?

1646
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:44,560
I wonder what the implication is
there, but whatever, whatever.

1647
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:49,120
Holy cow.
I mean, I could go on for hours

1648
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:52,400
and hours and hours still
addressing various different

1649
01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:56,080
points, but I think this.
No, I think this is sufficient.

1650
01:33:56,200 --> 01:33:59,320
Yeah, this is sufficient.
And quite frankly, I can't take

1651
01:33:59,320 --> 01:34:02,480
any more.
I'm just going to cover a few

1652
01:34:02,480 --> 01:34:05,080
other topics though real quick.
I'm not going to go in depth.

1653
01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:08,080
I'm just going to say.
So some other ideas that are

1654
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:09,360
present.
What are some other things that

1655
01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:13,920
the NEM and how record presents?
There is a a strong disdain for

1656
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:17,760
free market and industry.
Their version of this United

1657
01:34:17,760 --> 01:34:20,440
Order is one that keeps
everybody in poverty, literally,

1658
01:34:20,560 --> 01:34:22,560
and they even kind of brag about
it.

1659
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:24,920
Is This is why the Gideon's
don't bother us?

1660
01:34:25,480 --> 01:34:27,480
Right.
Because because there's nothing

1661
01:34:27,480 --> 01:34:28,800
here to steal.
We're not.

1662
01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:33,880
We're not rich.
There's a huge environmentalist

1663
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:40,240
slant.
In fact, I'm trying to remember.

1664
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:45,680
Well, specifically, men are told
that they are not.

1665
01:34:52,360 --> 01:34:53,880
We're supposed that they're
supposed to be stewards of the

1666
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:54,840
Earth.
They're not Lords.

1667
01:34:55,160 --> 01:34:56,600
They're not to be Lords of the
Earth.

1668
01:34:56,920 --> 01:35:04,080
Basically, there's a this idea
that the environment can only

1669
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:07,560
sustain so many people.
Yeah, and if it gets more than

1670
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:09,440
that, it's it damages the
environment.

1671
01:35:09,440 --> 01:35:10,440
That's what I mean by
environment.

1672
01:35:10,440 --> 01:35:13,240
They're not talking about like
real environmental issues like

1673
01:35:13,320 --> 01:35:16,880
oil tankers leaking all over the
ocean or, or trash in the ocean.

1674
01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:22,520
They're not talking about, you
know, mines dumping toxic waste

1675
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:30,000
into rivers or factories or, or
farms with GMO crops and GMO

1676
01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:31,560
insects.
They're not talking about that

1677
01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:33,480
kind of stuff.
No, they're talking about

1678
01:35:34,120 --> 01:35:36,040
there's too many people living
in this community.

1679
01:35:37,120 --> 01:35:41,400
It's too hard on the land, and
so we need to have smaller

1680
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:43,520
communities.
In fact, the numbers that they

1681
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:47,200
give vary, but it's basically
between 102 hundred families per

1682
01:35:47,200 --> 01:35:49,880
city Max.
See, that would cause more

1683
01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:52,800
economic, more environmental
damage than anything else,

1684
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:54,920
right?
Because you get sprawl at that

1685
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:55,960
point.
Well, yeah.

1686
01:35:56,040 --> 01:35:59,000
Well, well, when you create a
new settlement, you got to it's.

1687
01:35:59,080 --> 01:36:02,240
I also believe it's supposed to
be a day's travel away, so.

1688
01:36:03,840 --> 01:36:06,400
So you're just going to have the
land just covered with a bunch

1689
01:36:06,400 --> 01:36:09,040
of tiny villages I guess, right?
Right.

1690
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:13,440
And since, I mean, they're going
to fill up, and once they're

1691
01:36:13,440 --> 01:36:15,760
filled up, all your children,
when they want to get married,

1692
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:18,160
they're going to have to leave
home, that might be a good

1693
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:19,280
thing.
Depends on the mother-in-law,

1694
01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:23,200
right?
Yeah.

1695
01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:26,160
Yeah, somebody might be.
But you don't get a choice.

1696
01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:28,440
Right.
But you don't get a choice.

1697
01:36:28,440 --> 01:36:31,960
You know, your city's full and
you want to get married.

1698
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:35,120
You got to go leave your home,
leave your siblings, leave your

1699
01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:38,080
family and go off.
And I'll be honest, that's a

1700
01:36:38,080 --> 01:36:41,160
hard thing to do.
That's not an easy situation to

1701
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:44,280
be in.
There is throughout the text,

1702
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:49,920
there is constantly this, this
epistemological view of testing

1703
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:53,480
everything by the Holy Ghost.
But it really kind of devolves

1704
01:36:53,480 --> 01:36:57,560
into this your own truth thing,
even as we saw right there,

1705
01:36:57,560 --> 01:37:00,480
right?
If, if this polygamy thing was

1706
01:37:00,480 --> 01:37:03,200
wrong, you would expect a
prophet to rise up like you see

1707
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:05,520
in the Book of Mormon, Alma,
when confronted with an

1708
01:37:05,520 --> 01:37:09,040
Antichrist, actually confronts
his arguments and shuts him

1709
01:37:09,040 --> 01:37:12,320
down, right?
You don't see that happen

1710
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:15,400
because there's this well,
everybody has their own truth

1711
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:19,680
and we need to respect that,
even if we're going to take

1712
01:37:19,680 --> 01:37:21,200
their children away from them
and cast them out.

1713
01:37:21,640 --> 01:37:25,080
Right.
There's a doctrine of seeking

1714
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:28,880
Christ's face from childhood,
essentially seeking Christ's

1715
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:31,240
face, Seeking a personal
audience with Christ is the

1716
01:37:31,240 --> 01:37:36,120
first step, and then maybe
repentance or remission of sins,

1717
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:38,480
and then baptism, eventually an
endowment.

1718
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:41,920
Which is the exact opposite.
Right.

1719
01:37:42,200 --> 01:37:45,480
It's yeah.
It's also very anti

1720
01:37:45,480 --> 01:37:50,080
constitutional government.
They have their own system and

1721
01:37:50,080 --> 01:37:52,720
they constantly, it's one thing
to have to present a different

1722
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:54,440
idea and say, hey, this works
for us.

1723
01:37:54,520 --> 01:37:56,440
This is how our government works
and that works for our small

1724
01:37:56,440 --> 01:37:59,280
communities.
But they constantly point out

1725
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:03,080
that because the Nephites don't
have, because the Nephites let

1726
01:38:03,080 --> 01:38:06,320
men vote.
That's why they're wicked all

1727
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:09,000
the time and that's why they've
got all these problems.

1728
01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:11,280
And they they, they're
constantly comparing their

1729
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:14,960
civilization to the Nephite
civilization, showing how theirs

1730
01:38:14,960 --> 01:38:18,360
is better.
And in every opportunity they

1731
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:23,480
get right, they've got well, and
this is interesting too.

1732
01:38:23,480 --> 01:38:25,680
I don't know if you caught that,
but it's basically it, it is.

1733
01:38:25,680 --> 01:38:27,840
It is dependent on a South
American Book of Mormon

1734
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:30,760
geography.
It is absolute on that right or

1735
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:34,880
central, South Central, whatever
you there is.

1736
01:38:35,480 --> 01:38:38,000
This is completely incompatible
with the Heartland model.

1737
01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:42,840
So anybody that believes in the
Heartland model, this is

1738
01:38:43,400 --> 01:38:47,360
absolute contradiction, not does
not compute, right?

1739
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:49,440
Really.
Yeah.

1740
01:38:50,480 --> 01:38:54,200
The Nephites are basically the,
the Mayans and the as whatever

1741
01:38:54,200 --> 01:38:57,640
you know, they're the, those are
the Nephites and the Lamanites,

1742
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:01,240
the Nemenha are the North
American tribes.

1743
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:03,840
They're the ones that are living
in places like Utah and Missouri

1744
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:07,080
and the Great Lakes.
And the only time the Nephites

1745
01:39:07,080 --> 01:39:10,880
and Lamanites show up is during
the their final destruction and

1746
01:39:10,880 --> 01:39:15,160
battles where apparently the the
Lamanites chase the Nephites

1747
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,400
across the entire continent.
Right.

1748
01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:23,800
That sounds hard, you know, I
mean, Napoleon didn't get that

1749
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:28,920
far with a with a a country
behind him supporting him and

1750
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:34,600
the when he went into Russia.
I can't imagine how the

1751
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:37,960
Lamanites chase the Nephites all
the way from down there up to

1752
01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:43,080
the Great Lakes area.
But multiple paths of salvation,

1753
01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:46,400
we kind of covered that, right?
Like kind of again, do your own

1754
01:39:46,400 --> 01:39:49,120
thing, do your own baptism, do
your own priesthood.

1755
01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:51,600
It actually tells you not to
preach of Christ.

1756
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:54,400
Now, one of the things that was
striking to me in comparison to

1757
01:39:54,400 --> 01:39:58,360
the Book of Mormon is the Book
of Mormon is full of these

1758
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:01,960
amazing discourses on Christ,
powerful discourses on Christ,

1759
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:06,120
right?
I mean something like Alma 57.

1760
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:12,360
32 how to gain faith you've got
nephi when nephi talks about his

1761
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:14,520
struggles with after his father
dies and.

1762
01:40:15,680 --> 01:40:18,480
His.
Faith and his testimony, I mean

1763
01:40:18,480 --> 01:40:22,800
the the Book of Mormon is
undeniably a testament to of

1764
01:40:22,800 --> 01:40:26,600
Jesus Christ.
This record, it doesn't really

1765
01:40:26,600 --> 01:40:28,760
talk about him much other than
authoritatively.

1766
01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:32,440
Right.
Finally, well, may not It's,

1767
01:40:32,440 --> 01:40:34,240
it's, it's also what kind of
anti police?

1768
01:40:35,120 --> 01:40:38,160
Yeah, there's one point in the
civilization where they have a

1769
01:40:38,160 --> 01:40:40,080
lot of refugees coming in.
They feel like they need some

1770
01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:42,600
police so they bring in, so they
start having some police

1771
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:45,800
officers and they essentially
immediately turn on them and

1772
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:49,000
oppress them.
And so it's kind of defund the

1773
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:52,240
police type of idea going.
It's kind of odd to me, but they

1774
01:40:52,240 --> 01:40:57,440
don't mention apostles anywhere
other than basically when I

1775
01:40:57,440 --> 01:41:00,680
think when Christ visits,
there's really no other

1776
01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:04,440
reference to apostles.
And I'm not quite sure why, but

1777
01:41:04,440 --> 01:41:06,960
their priesthood does not have
an apostleship.

1778
01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:11,480
It's basically just the high
priest and it seems everybody

1779
01:41:11,480 --> 01:41:14,600
else is essentially equal.
I kind of mentioned anti

1780
01:41:14,600 --> 01:41:18,560
population, anti civilization,
anti city.

1781
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:23,880
It's also very all or nothing
with the law of consecration it

1782
01:41:23,880 --> 01:41:27,480
constantly, you know, it's not a
higher law that creates a Zion

1783
01:41:27,480 --> 01:41:31,800
that the Zion society can live.
It's the only acceptable law

1784
01:41:32,760 --> 01:41:35,480
essentially.
And they're constantly judging

1785
01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:40,160
other people, mostly knee fights
for not having all things in

1786
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:43,080
common or not having all things
in common enough, right?

1787
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:46,080
Because even when the knee
fights are when it says the knee

1788
01:41:46,080 --> 01:41:50,040
fights have all things in
common, they're no, no, that's

1789
01:41:50,040 --> 01:41:52,880
not good enough because their
cities don't intermingle, right?

1790
01:41:52,880 --> 01:41:54,960
They're separate and that's a
separate and that causes a

1791
01:41:54,960 --> 01:41:57,200
problem.
I didn't get into it, but

1792
01:41:57,200 --> 01:42:01,680
they're also very anti military
and or pro pacifism and there's

1793
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:04,880
a lot of places where it implies
that if you were, if you've ever

1794
01:42:04,880 --> 01:42:06,960
been a soldier, it's going to
permanently scar you.

1795
01:42:07,160 --> 01:42:11,560
There's a section where Moroni
says I have, I have trouble

1796
01:42:11,560 --> 01:42:14,040
entering the way because of the,
the because I was involved in

1797
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:17,120
warfare and I have to have a
special ceremony begin to to to

1798
01:42:17,120 --> 01:42:21,400
enter into it.
Now there's a story of a of a of

1799
01:42:21,400 --> 01:42:26,880
a Mayan priestess who brings the
people up who were who engaged

1800
01:42:26,880 --> 01:42:28,680
in a bloody revolution to rescue
her.

1801
01:42:28,680 --> 01:42:30,960
And after they rescue her, she's
like, I'm going north to the

1802
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:33,800
Nemenha people.
And the rest of the people are

1803
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:36,440
like, oh, well, we want to go.
And she's like, oh, you can't

1804
01:42:36,440 --> 01:42:38,000
go.
You guys are wicked.

1805
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:39,840
You, you murdered people to
rescue me.

1806
01:42:40,320 --> 01:42:41,800
Your hands are dirty.
You don't get a go.

1807
01:42:42,000 --> 01:42:47,440
You know that's they.
Don't get a go, but they wander

1808
01:42:47,440 --> 01:42:49,640
in the wilderness for three
generations.

1809
01:42:49,920 --> 01:42:52,800
You know, the whole pacifism
thing.

1810
01:42:52,800 --> 01:42:57,000
Don't don't get me wrong, I, I
want peace as much, if not more

1811
01:42:57,000 --> 01:43:02,760
than than a lot of people.
But I wouldn't call myself a

1812
01:43:02,760 --> 01:43:05,200
pacifist, right?
When someone says that they're a

1813
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:08,920
pacifist, I say to what end?
Are you a pacifist when they're

1814
01:43:08,920 --> 01:43:11,960
taking your rights?
Are you a pacifist when they

1815
01:43:11,960 --> 01:43:14,960
come and take your children?
Where, where does that stop for

1816
01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:20,920
you?
And, and I don't see it as being

1817
01:43:20,920 --> 01:43:27,680
a very logical or quite frankly,
even Christian thing to, to do,

1818
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:30,040
right?
I think we should always strive

1819
01:43:30,040 --> 01:43:33,000
for peace, but this idea of
peace at all costs I don't think

1820
01:43:33,000 --> 01:43:36,040
is a thing.
And I do believe that sometimes

1821
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:40,360
the Lord instructs his people,
sometimes you got to go to war,

1822
01:43:40,720 --> 01:43:41,760
right?
Right.

1823
01:43:42,040 --> 01:43:45,280
If we didn't, we wouldn't be
here having this conversation

1824
01:43:45,280 --> 01:43:48,600
now.
So in the another episode in the

1825
01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:50,960
Nemenha record, there's a time
where the knee fights are

1826
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:54,080
falling apart and the Nemenha
apparently are watching them and

1827
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:55,880
they see that there's still
relations coming to an end and

1828
01:43:55,880 --> 01:43:57,880
they're worried that they're
going to come up and bring the

1829
01:43:57,880 --> 01:44:00,760
war up to them.
And so they decide, hey, you

1830
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:04,480
know what, let's start
organizing an army and let's set

1831
01:44:04,480 --> 01:44:07,600
up defenses in case the
Lamanites, the knee fights, come

1832
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:10,320
up here and the war spills on
the and our land.

1833
01:44:10,320 --> 01:44:13,360
And they start doing that.
But then their prophet realizes

1834
01:44:13,360 --> 01:44:16,760
it's a mistake and repents, and
they disband the army and tear

1835
01:44:16,760 --> 01:44:19,080
down their defenses.
Wow.

1836
01:44:19,400 --> 01:44:23,320
Because to to have an army and
defenses provokes your neighbor

1837
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:29,600
and it causes having a military
sets requires rank for there to

1838
01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:33,440
be order, which sets men above
other men and basically implies

1839
01:44:33,440 --> 01:44:37,040
that it just destroys the soul
that if you are a soldier, if

1840
01:44:37,040 --> 01:44:39,520
you ever, you know, if you ever
have to kill somebody, that it's

1841
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:43,680
just going to kind of break you
in a way that that can't be

1842
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:46,920
healed.
And so instead they tear down

1843
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:48,840
their defenses, they disband the
army.

1844
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:51,520
And when the Nephites and
Lamanites come up, they just

1845
01:44:51,520 --> 01:44:55,640
hide and they don't get noticed.
Wow, holy cow.

1846
01:44:56,160 --> 01:44:57,880
Right.
So that's the theological.

1847
01:44:57,880 --> 01:44:59,880
So now let's move on to the
historical.

1848
01:44:59,880 --> 01:45:04,400
I'm just kidding.
I actually do have the

1849
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:06,200
historical section.
I want to run through it real

1850
01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:07,240
quick.
Are you still up for that or are

1851
01:45:07,240 --> 01:45:08,440
you 2?
No, I'm good.

1852
01:45:09,240 --> 01:45:11,600
Are you good?
This is worth bringing up 'cause

1853
01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:14,320
this is historical.
This is just, you know,

1854
01:45:14,400 --> 01:45:16,040
theology.
You can argue, right?

1855
01:45:16,040 --> 01:45:18,080
Maybe I'm this, maybe I'm
interpreting this wrong.

1856
01:45:18,080 --> 01:45:19,240
Maybe you're interpreting this
wrong.

1857
01:45:19,240 --> 01:45:20,800
Maybe it's not what we think it
says.

1858
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:24,480
We know how difficult
theological debate can be.

1859
01:45:24,480 --> 01:45:27,480
I've done the debate on your own
podcast on theology, right?

1860
01:45:28,880 --> 01:45:32,120
His story history is not quite
so cut and dry though.

1861
01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:34,960
History it it either is or it
isn't, right?

1862
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:40,920
So what I want to talk about is
the origins of this record.

1863
01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:45,600
OK.
The Nemenha people are

1864
01:45:45,600 --> 01:45:49,120
supposedly derived from Hagoth,
who builds a ship and goes

1865
01:45:49,120 --> 01:45:50,240
north.
And we read about that in the

1866
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:51,560
Book of Mormon, Right.
Right.

1867
01:45:52,320 --> 01:45:55,280
Though I'm going to share my.
Am I sharing still?

1868
01:45:55,560 --> 01:45:57,160
Yeah.
Oh, I'm still sharing.

1869
01:45:57,160 --> 01:45:59,720
OK.
I want to share Almaphybes 45.

1870
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:02,480
So this is because this is the
19th year of the reign of the

1871
01:46:02,480 --> 01:46:04,880
judges.
OK, now it came to pass after

1872
01:46:04,880 --> 01:46:07,600
Alma had said these things to
heal him and he blessed him and

1873
01:46:07,600 --> 01:46:09,560
also his other sons and he also
blessed the earth for

1874
01:46:09,560 --> 01:46:12,480
righteousness sake.
And he tells what what he

1875
01:46:12,480 --> 01:46:16,240
blessed the land about.
And then Alma blesses the church

1876
01:46:17,120 --> 01:46:20,960
and then he departs out of the
land of Zarahemla as if to oh,

1877
01:46:20,960 --> 01:46:23,120
here's the wrong section.
I want Hagos departure, not

1878
01:46:23,120 --> 01:46:25,680
Alma's departure.
Well, this is worth worth

1879
01:46:25,680 --> 01:46:27,920
reviewing too, right?
So what happens to Alma in the

1880
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:31,240
Book of Mormon?
He blesses his sons, he blesses

1881
01:46:31,240 --> 01:46:34,840
the church, he goes off as if
he's going to, to the land of

1882
01:46:34,840 --> 01:46:38,880
Melik, and he disappears and
nobody ever hears from him

1883
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:41,520
again, right, And says, Behold
this, we know that he was a

1884
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:44,440
righteous man, and the same went
abroad in the church, that he

1885
01:46:44,440 --> 01:46:47,040
was taken up by the Spirit or
buried by the hand of the Lord,

1886
01:46:47,040 --> 01:46:48,840
even as Moses.
But behold, the Scriptures

1887
01:46:48,840 --> 01:46:51,200
saith, the Lord took Moses unto
himself.

1888
01:46:51,200 --> 01:46:53,840
And we suppose that he has also
received Alma in the spirit of

1889
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:55,400
himself.
Therefore for this 'cause we

1890
01:46:55,400 --> 01:46:57,240
know nothing concerning his
death and burial.

1891
01:46:57,680 --> 01:47:00,000
And it came to pass that in the
commandment of the 19th year of

1892
01:47:00,000 --> 01:47:02,080
the reign of Judges, or the
people of Nephi, that Healman

1893
01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:04,440
went forth among the people to
declare the word unto him.

1894
01:47:04,480 --> 01:47:08,240
So Healman his son Healman takes
over right 19th year of the

1895
01:47:08,240 --> 01:47:11,080
reign of Judges.
This is when Alma disappears.

1896
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:13,800
So let's look at Hagoth's
departure.

1897
01:47:13,800 --> 01:47:16,400
Now in the Book of Mormon, we're
now in Alma 36.

1898
01:47:16,400 --> 01:47:19,880
This is the 38th year, 19 years
after Alma departs.

1899
01:47:20,520 --> 01:47:23,560
And it came to pass that Hagoth,
he being an exceedingly curious

1900
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:26,320
man, therefore he went forth and
built him an exceedingly large

1901
01:47:26,320 --> 01:47:28,440
ship by the borders of the land
Bountiful, by the land

1902
01:47:28,440 --> 01:47:30,720
desolation, and launched it
forth into the West Sea by the

1903
01:47:30,720 --> 01:47:33,040
narrow Neck which led into land
northward.

1904
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:35,680
And behold, there are many of
the Nephites who did enter

1905
01:47:35,680 --> 01:47:37,080
there.
And it did sail forth with much

1906
01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:39,720
provisions and with many
children, and they took their

1907
01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:42,000
course northward.
And thus ended the 30 and 7th

1908
01:47:42,000 --> 01:47:44,360
year.
And in the 30 and 8th year the

1909
01:47:44,360 --> 01:47:47,040
man built other ships.
The first ship did also return,

1910
01:47:47,040 --> 01:47:48,320
and many people did enter into
it.

1911
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:50,760
And they took much provisions
and set out again to the land

1912
01:47:50,760 --> 01:47:53,040
northward.
And it came to pass that they

1913
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:59,160
were never heard of more, which
is interesting because the

1914
01:47:59,160 --> 01:48:01,680
Nemenha are constantly
interacting with them.

1915
01:48:02,480 --> 01:48:04,320
Right.
But apparently they were never

1916
01:48:04,320 --> 01:48:08,640
heard of more, and we suppose,
we suppose that they were

1917
01:48:08,640 --> 01:48:09,880
drowned in the depths of the
sea.

1918
01:48:09,880 --> 01:48:12,800
And it came to pass that one of
that one other ship did also

1919
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:14,920
sail forth.
And whether she did go we know

1920
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:18,200
not.
So this is here's the thing.

1921
01:48:18,200 --> 01:48:19,560
This is in the book of Alma,
right?

1922
01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:22,400
Right.
But is Alma writing this?

1923
01:48:23,000 --> 01:48:24,000
No.
No.

1924
01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:26,880
Who's writing this?
Who's narrating the history?

1925
01:48:27,320 --> 01:48:29,920
It was Mormon, right?
It was an abridgement by Mormon.

1926
01:48:29,960 --> 01:48:32,320
Yep.
Yeah, Mormon's writing this,

1927
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:33,840
which is an important thing to
remember.

1928
01:48:34,480 --> 01:48:37,880
Because wait, it wasn't.
No, it was Moroni that was in in

1929
01:48:37,880 --> 01:48:41,840
the the Newman Hall record.
Right.

1930
01:48:42,760 --> 01:48:44,640
Well, Mormon.
Mormon does not show up in their

1931
01:48:44,640 --> 01:48:46,520
record, no.
Right, that's why I was saying

1932
01:48:46,520 --> 01:48:47,920
it was.
Well, he referenced, but he's

1933
01:48:47,920 --> 01:48:49,160
not a.
He's not a character.

1934
01:48:49,320 --> 01:48:54,080
Right.
So it can't so and and it came

1935
01:48:54,080 --> 01:48:55,800
to pass, and this is also
important verse and it came to

1936
01:48:55,800 --> 01:48:59,080
pass in the 39th year of the
reign of Judges Stidla.

1937
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:02,720
Oh, so by the way, Helenman died
at this point, and Shiblon is

1938
01:49:02,760 --> 01:49:04,520
his.
The other brother Shiblon is now

1939
01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:08,560
leading the church, right?
Well, Shiblon's now died also.

1940
01:49:09,080 --> 01:49:12,400
And Corey Anton had gone forth
to the land northward in a ship

1941
01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:15,880
to carry forth provisions unto
the people who had gone forth

1942
01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:19,560
into that land.
So let's look at the timeline

1943
01:49:19,560 --> 01:49:26,000
here, right?
Alma finishes, gives his sons

1944
01:49:26,000 --> 01:49:31,840
blessings, he blesses the church
and he vanishes 19 year.

1945
01:49:31,840 --> 01:49:34,080
His son takes over Helen and his
son takes over.

1946
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:37,120
Eventually Helen dies, his son
Shiblon takes over.

1947
01:49:37,760 --> 01:49:42,320
We're now 19 years after Alma
left and Hagoth builds ships and

1948
01:49:42,320 --> 01:49:51,960
goes up north and within two
years, 39th now Shiblon dies and

1949
01:49:51,960 --> 01:49:54,960
it says Cory Anton had gone
forth to the land northward.

1950
01:49:56,040 --> 01:50:00,240
So somewhere in here, right?
Should Corey Anton went north?

1951
01:50:00,840 --> 01:50:02,720
Right.
In the 38th year.

1952
01:50:03,280 --> 01:50:08,640
So here's the issue.
This is a chapter, volume 4,

1953
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:12,200
Chapter 5 of Heineman, it says.
And Mormon took with him his son

1954
01:50:12,200 --> 01:50:16,800
Mormon even a boy no more, no
more than eight years of age.

1955
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:18,760
And he travelled with him
wherever he went in the land

1956
01:50:18,760 --> 01:50:20,400
southward.
But the rest of the family he

1957
01:50:20,400 --> 01:50:23,280
left in the city of whipped him
for their safety.

1958
01:50:24,080 --> 01:50:29,840
So they're saying that Mormon
and his son Mormon and his son

1959
01:50:29,840 --> 01:50:33,760
Mormon I, they're all Nemenhah
and they're, he went down with

1960
01:50:33,760 --> 01:50:37,720
them to, to keep an eye on them.
And we know that his young son,

1961
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:40,880
the Mormon who wrote the Book of
Mormon has grown into a great

1962
01:50:40,880 --> 01:50:42,320
man.
For the Nephites of the land

1963
01:50:42,320 --> 01:50:44,720
South were chosen to be their
captain and to lead their

1964
01:50:44,720 --> 01:50:47,040
armies.
And from all reports of his

1965
01:50:47,040 --> 01:50:48,560
family, he was a prophet and a
seer.

1966
01:50:48,560 --> 01:50:51,360
Nevertheless, he does not preach
unto the people for the spirit

1967
01:50:51,360 --> 01:50:52,600
constraint.
So that's where they're at in

1968
01:50:52,600 --> 01:50:54,360
the Book of Mormon, right When
Mormon stops preaching.

1969
01:50:56,360 --> 01:50:59,200
I'm.
Just going to jump down here to

1970
01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:02,440
verse 25 now.
But but now his son, whose name

1971
01:51:02,440 --> 01:51:07,640
is Moroni, but our people call
him Morhonaya, is gone also into

1972
01:51:07,640 --> 01:51:10,080
the land southward to join his
father in the fight.

1973
01:51:10,760 --> 01:51:14,280
So where is Moroni when this is
going on?

1974
01:51:14,440 --> 01:51:18,440
He's with the Nemenhah.
He's up north with the Nemenhah.

1975
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:20,200
And then he goes down to help
his father.

1976
01:51:20,720 --> 01:51:25,240
His father originally goes down
with his father when he's 8 and

1977
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:27,120
it sounds like he's but does he
have discourse?

1978
01:51:27,120 --> 01:51:30,040
Is Moroni is Mormon going back
and forth between the Nemenha

1979
01:51:30,040 --> 01:51:31,840
and the Nephites?
You'd have to How did he have

1980
01:51:31,920 --> 01:51:35,040
the son?
If he if he goes to the Nephites

1981
01:51:35,040 --> 01:51:37,880
when he's 8 years old, how does
his son Moroni come South?

1982
01:51:38,520 --> 01:51:39,400
Right.
No.

1983
01:51:39,640 --> 01:51:44,320
So so Mormon and Moroni have
interaction with the Nemenha so

1984
01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:45,880
when they know who the Nemenha
are.

1985
01:51:46,360 --> 01:51:50,160
Right, so when Mormon said I
know not where Hagoth went.

1986
01:51:50,640 --> 01:51:52,800
How can you say?
That how can you say that

1987
01:51:52,800 --> 01:51:55,440
because he would know otherwise.
Exactly.

1988
01:51:55,440 --> 01:51:57,680
He would know otherwise,
Absolutely.

1989
01:51:58,120 --> 01:52:00,320
That's a red flag.
That's kind of a red.

1990
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:02,040
Flag, isn't it?
But that's not even the real

1991
01:52:02,040 --> 01:52:05,800
historical issue, that's just a
contextual issue.

1992
01:52:07,680 --> 01:52:10,720
So here's the problem.
Corey Anton's story.

1993
01:52:11,240 --> 01:52:16,280
So in the early days of Nemaha
of Mintonah, the and founded

1994
01:52:17,240 --> 01:52:20,120
some of them go off and they
find the city of Corey Anton.

1995
01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:24,120
And because we read how Corey
Anton went north too, right?

1996
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:28,960
And so they find his city and
he's he's become a king, but

1997
01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:30,720
he's a good king.
He's like the Nemenha.

1998
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:33,160
And they join with the Nemenha
because they're the same

1999
01:52:33,160 --> 01:52:36,640
culture.
But when they meet him, Corey

2000
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:39,480
Anton tells them his story of
how he came to be up there.

2001
01:52:39,880 --> 01:52:41,840
OK.
And this is that same Corey

2002
01:52:41,840 --> 01:52:45,240
Anton who is brother of Shiblon,
who is a prophet in Zarahemlon,

2003
01:52:45,720 --> 01:52:46,880
OK.
Right.

2004
01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:49,280
Here he goes.
Now when I was a younger man, my

2005
01:52:49,280 --> 01:52:52,480
father Alma sent me unto our
brethren the Lamanites, to

2006
01:52:52,480 --> 01:52:53,760
preach the word of God unto
them.

2007
01:52:54,280 --> 01:52:56,680
Now the mission was exceedingly
hard, and my brothers and I

2008
01:52:56,680 --> 01:52:59,440
suffered privations, beatings
that were impoverished and

2009
01:52:59,440 --> 01:53:02,160
starved.
In short, for one young as I,

2010
01:53:02,160 --> 01:53:04,800
the mission became very hard.
Nevertheless, we remain

2011
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:08,480
steadfast in our desire that the
Lamanites received that light

2012
01:53:08,480 --> 01:53:10,040
which cometh from the knowledge
of God in Christ.

2013
01:53:10,040 --> 01:53:11,760
Wherefore we were diligent and
faithful.

2014
01:53:12,440 --> 01:53:17,120
That's verse 27 of volume one,
First Seam Oil, chapter 6.

2015
01:53:17,920 --> 01:53:21,760
I'm going continuing 28 Now
there was a woman whose name was

2016
01:53:21,760 --> 01:53:24,880
Isabel, and in her company we
were always made welcome, and

2017
01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:29,680
she opened her home to us.
She had been a harlot, but she

2018
01:53:29,680 --> 01:53:32,960
repented nevertheless.
Her reputation was always

2019
01:53:32,960 --> 01:53:35,760
esteemed the same after she
received the gospel as before,

2020
01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:37,480
and she was despised by the
Nephites.

2021
01:53:37,880 --> 01:53:39,560
Because she had received the
word of God.

2022
01:53:39,560 --> 01:53:42,520
She was despised by her brethren
the Lamanites, and because she

2023
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:45,120
had been a harlot she was
despised by the Nephites.

2024
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:47,680
Wherever her situation became
pitiful indeed.

2025
01:53:47,680 --> 01:53:50,880
Nevertheless, she always opened
her door to us, and whenever she

2026
01:53:50,880 --> 01:53:54,920
had and what and whatsoever she
had in the house, she did always

2027
01:53:54,920 --> 01:53:58,760
offer to us for our comfort.
Now, because of her pitiful

2028
01:53:58,760 --> 01:54:01,360
state, I did visit her often and
and did comfort her.

2029
01:54:01,920 --> 01:54:05,480
And behold, many seeing this, it
spread abroad the rumor that I

2030
01:54:05,480 --> 01:54:08,800
did consort with a harlot while
presuming, presuming to be upon

2031
01:54:08,800 --> 01:54:11,680
the Lord's errand.
And even my own family did

2032
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:14,800
condemn me for a time.
Yeah, so sharp with his tongues

2033
01:54:14,800 --> 01:54:17,800
and so prolific the rumors
against me that I was

2034
01:54:17,800 --> 01:54:20,720
constrained to leave my mission
in order that I might find

2035
01:54:20,720 --> 01:54:23,000
safety for her and peace for
myself.

2036
01:54:23,440 --> 01:54:25,960
For I had grown to love Isabel
and desired not to see her

2037
01:54:25,960 --> 01:54:28,200
suffering.
Now this thing greatly

2038
01:54:28,200 --> 01:54:32,640
displeased my father, Alma the
Younger, and I did receive great

2039
01:54:32,640 --> 01:54:36,560
chastisement from him.
Oh, we, we, we remember that

2040
01:54:36,560 --> 01:54:37,920
chapter in the Book of Mormon,
right?

2041
01:54:38,040 --> 01:54:40,400
Yeah.
Nevertheless, I must believe

2042
01:54:40,400 --> 01:54:43,000
that he did not wholly believe
the murmurings of the people,

2043
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:45,040
for the gifts of discernment
were strong in him.

2044
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:48,080
Nevertheless, once I had made
arrangement for the care of the

2045
01:54:48,080 --> 01:54:50,880
lady, he did command me
straightly to take up and finish

2046
01:54:50,880 --> 01:54:53,480
my mission to the Lamanites.
And behold, I did as my father

2047
01:54:53,480 --> 01:54:55,520
commanded, and great has been my
joy because of it.

2048
01:54:56,320 --> 01:54:59,160
But Isabel suffered greatly, for
the Nephites, into whose care I

2049
01:54:59,160 --> 01:55:01,720
placed her, esteemed her to be a
harlot still, even though she

2050
01:55:01,720 --> 01:55:03,520
had abandoned her sin and come
unto Christ.

2051
01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:05,880
Yeah, they cast her out of their
churches, and she was restrained

2052
01:55:05,880 --> 01:55:08,360
from worshipping, and isolated
from all fellowship with them.

2053
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:12,200
Even they did refrain from any
concerns with her, and her state

2054
01:55:12,200 --> 01:55:14,320
became exceedingly very
miserable.

2055
01:55:15,160 --> 01:55:17,360
Now she was a Weaver of.
Baskets and her work was.

2056
01:55:17,360 --> 01:55:20,320
Exceedingly fine above all the
artisans of the Nephites.

2057
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:21,760
Cause of course she's a girl
boss.

2058
01:55:22,320 --> 01:55:24,240
Right.
They would not buy her work

2059
01:55:24,480 --> 01:55:27,200
because she was judged by them
beneath their feet and unworthy

2060
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:30,000
of their association, And she
became poor and wanted much, and

2061
01:55:30,320 --> 01:55:32,760
had it not been for the little
provision that had made for her,

2062
01:55:32,760 --> 01:55:35,240
she surely would have perished
because of her great want.

2063
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:38,200
Behold, when I finally did
return for my mission of the

2064
01:55:38,200 --> 01:55:40,520
Lamanites, behold, I found her
homeless, friendless, and

2065
01:55:40,520 --> 01:55:42,680
hungry.
Then was I ashamed.

2066
01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:44,960
I had spent over much time
crying repentance unto the

2067
01:55:44,960 --> 01:55:48,480
Lamanites, for barely had I seen
anything the like among them, as

2068
01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:50,800
I had seen of the poor woman and
her suffering at the hands of

2069
01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:53,640
the Nephites.
Wherefore I did take up this

2070
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:56,320
poor woman under my own bosom,
and I beseeched her that she

2071
01:55:56,320 --> 01:55:59,720
become my wife, and we departed
out of the land southward

2072
01:55:59,880 --> 01:56:04,000
forever.
Now behold, the Mantel was

2073
01:56:04,000 --> 01:56:06,080
touched by the story, and knew
that it was true.

2074
01:56:06,320 --> 01:56:09,320
For who among the people of the
land southward had not heard how

2075
01:56:09,400 --> 01:56:11,960
the son of Alma, who ought to
have followed his brother as

2076
01:56:11,960 --> 01:56:15,320
prophet, took the harlot Isabel?
Isabel into the land northward

2077
01:56:15,320 --> 01:56:18,000
was never heard of again.
And also, who had not heard of

2078
01:56:18,000 --> 01:56:21,360
how the prophet Alma, having
heard how his harsh words of

2079
01:56:21,360 --> 01:56:25,560
judgement had driven his son
into the wilderness, did believe

2080
01:56:25,560 --> 01:56:29,280
that he had sent his son, his
own son, to his death?

2081
01:56:30,120 --> 01:56:34,400
And believing this, did he up
himself, give up his place as

2082
01:56:34,400 --> 01:56:37,200
prophet of God, and walk in the
wilderness, never to be seen or

2083
01:56:37,200 --> 01:56:41,280
heard again?
And I want to clarify, it is

2084
01:56:41,280 --> 01:56:44,200
explicit in another section.
It's me.

2085
01:56:44,200 --> 01:56:45,680
It's down here.
Yeah.

2086
01:56:45,920 --> 01:56:48,360
And for Allah belief that he had
sent them into the wilderness

2087
01:56:48,360 --> 01:56:51,400
under their deaths and that
knowledge that he had misjudged

2088
01:56:51,400 --> 01:56:54,440
them did break his heart.
So that part in the Book of

2089
01:56:54,440 --> 01:56:57,200
Mormon where he's talking to his
son about his sexual

2090
01:56:57,200 --> 01:57:02,800
improprieties, we're we're to
understand, we are to understand

2091
01:57:03,080 --> 01:57:05,240
that he was falsely judging his
son.

2092
01:57:06,560 --> 01:57:09,440
One of the greatest
dissertations to ever be placed

2093
01:57:09,440 --> 01:57:14,400
within Holy Writ, in my opinion,
in a my estimation, according to

2094
01:57:14,400 --> 01:57:18,840
the NIMA record, accounts for
nothing more than a man who

2095
01:57:18,840 --> 01:57:20,680
misjudged his son.
Right.

2096
01:57:20,800 --> 01:57:24,120
And so when Hementa heard these
things, he understood the more

2097
01:57:24,120 --> 01:57:25,960
and wondered at the great wisdom
of Coriantin.

2098
01:57:25,960 --> 01:57:28,120
For he knew Coriantin from the
people of Ammon.

2099
01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:31,160
And the rumor was still had
among them of the defection of

2100
01:57:31,160 --> 01:57:33,600
the son of Alma from among the
people because of the harlot

2101
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:35,920
Isabel.
And his heart was sorrowful

2102
01:57:36,160 --> 01:57:37,800
because of it.
For behold, a generation

2103
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:41,840
believed the rumor, and he kept
all these things in his heart

2104
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:43,200
and remembered them in later
years.

2105
01:57:44,120 --> 01:57:48,440
So yeah, yeah, the good guys are
bad guys.

2106
01:57:48,440 --> 01:57:51,680
The bad guys are good guys.
Alamo goes off and offs himself

2107
01:57:51,680 --> 01:57:55,040
in the woods.
Dude, this.

2108
01:57:55,040 --> 01:57:58,680
He's so upset because he thinks
he drove his he misjudged his

2109
01:57:58,680 --> 01:58:01,920
son and drove him to his son to
suicide that he then goes and

2110
01:58:01,920 --> 01:58:06,120
commits suicide.
This, this plays perfectly in in

2111
01:58:06,120 --> 01:58:09,840
today's society, right?
The good guys are bad.

2112
01:58:09,840 --> 01:58:14,120
The bad guys are good.
You know, calling evil good,

2113
01:58:15,280 --> 01:58:21,240
calling good evil.
I mean, it's.

2114
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:25,200
It's that simple.
So somebody's an unreliable

2115
01:58:25,200 --> 01:58:27,080
narrator here though.
Yeah.

2116
01:58:27,280 --> 01:58:33,480
And The funny thing is it's
either Mormon or the Nemenha.

2117
01:58:34,160 --> 01:58:36,320
But then but Mormon is a
Nemenha.

2118
01:58:37,280 --> 01:58:43,080
So that becomes a really, really
sticky issue when you consider

2119
01:58:43,080 --> 01:58:47,240
that Mormon included that story
of Alma.

2120
01:58:47,560 --> 01:58:51,240
Yep.
Mormon says we don't know what

2121
01:58:51,240 --> 01:58:52,600
happened to the people of
Hagoth.

2122
01:58:53,000 --> 01:58:55,680
Mormon says we don't know what
happened to Corey Anton.

2123
01:58:56,760 --> 01:59:00,320
How does he not know that?
Right, because he's not.

2124
01:59:02,040 --> 01:59:04,160
He's hanging out with, they're
his people.

2125
01:59:04,480 --> 01:59:07,280
He's been to the city of
Corryanton, most likely.

2126
01:59:08,880 --> 01:59:11,680
He lives in the in the city of
Mentenah where they've got

2127
01:59:11,680 --> 01:59:14,240
records.
They know this stuff.

2128
01:59:14,600 --> 01:59:16,040
They know where Hagoth came
from.

2129
01:59:16,200 --> 01:59:19,920
They know what happened to him.
But that's not even the real

2130
01:59:19,920 --> 01:59:22,040
issue.
That's not even the real issue,

2131
01:59:22,040 --> 01:59:23,320
OK?
The real issue is what we just

2132
01:59:23,320 --> 01:59:25,240
looked at in Book of Mormons.
Remember that that that

2133
01:59:25,240 --> 01:59:27,520
chronology chronology asked you
to look at.

2134
01:59:27,920 --> 01:59:29,400
Yeah.
Let's look at that again.

2135
01:59:29,760 --> 01:59:32,320
Alma departs in the 19th year of
the reign of Judges.

2136
01:59:32,720 --> 01:59:34,800
And it says, and now it came to
pass that after Alma said these

2137
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:37,960
things to Helam and he blessed
him and also his other sons.

2138
01:59:39,480 --> 01:59:45,640
So Alma is blessing his sons.
So Shiblon and Corryanton as

2139
01:59:45,640 --> 01:59:49,720
well as Helaman, right, in the
19th year of the reign of

2140
01:59:49,720 --> 01:59:54,000
Judges.
When does Alma off themselves in

2141
01:59:54,000 --> 01:59:56,880
the woods?
That same year, That same year.

2142
01:59:57,280 --> 01:59:59,200
Yeah.
That's interesting because I

2143
01:59:59,200 --> 02:00:01,800
thought he offed himself because
Corey Anton left and he thought

2144
02:00:01,800 --> 02:00:05,320
that he died.
When does Corey Anton leave?

2145
02:00:05,600 --> 02:00:07,560
Well, he couldn't have left
before Hagoth.

2146
02:00:08,440 --> 02:00:12,960
When does Hagoth leave?
38th year, 19 years after Alma

2147
02:00:13,720 --> 02:00:18,400
offed himself.
So they couldn't keep the date

2148
02:00:18,400 --> 02:00:21,080
straight.
They couldn't keep the date

2149
02:00:21,080 --> 02:00:23,360
straight.
Yeah, they they botched it.

2150
02:00:23,360 --> 02:00:28,240
They wanted to they wanted to
have their cake and eat it too.

2151
02:00:29,400 --> 02:00:32,160
All of the great prophets from
the Book of Mormon are their

2152
02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:35,240
prophets actually.
And even the bad guys in the

2153
02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:36,640
Book of Mormon are their good
guys.

2154
02:00:37,320 --> 02:00:39,280
Some of the good guys in the
Book of Mormon are actually bad

2155
02:00:39,280 --> 02:00:43,080
guys.
But in playing that game, they,

2156
02:00:43,120 --> 02:00:45,520
they screwed up the dates.
They they missed this.

2157
02:00:45,520 --> 02:00:50,640
There's no possible way this is
right unless, unless one of

2158
02:00:50,640 --> 02:00:53,160
these one of these narrators is
unreliable.

2159
02:00:53,760 --> 02:00:57,760
Well, look.
But if Mormon lies is lying

2160
02:00:57,760 --> 02:01:01,440
about this history here, well,
he isn't.

2161
02:01:01,520 --> 02:01:04,800
He is Nemenha according to the
Nemenha record.

2162
02:01:05,280 --> 02:01:07,920
So they're lying.
They're impeaching themselves.

2163
02:01:08,560 --> 02:01:12,920
Their own history, impeaches
their own history according to

2164
02:01:12,920 --> 02:01:16,280
their history.
So I mean, this was a there's

2165
02:01:16,280 --> 02:01:19,280
other issues too, where you can
find historical contradictions

2166
02:01:19,280 --> 02:01:21,760
with the Book of Mormon.
They're all over the place, but

2167
02:01:21,760 --> 02:01:24,240
this one is kind of seriously
smoking a gun.

2168
02:01:24,280 --> 02:01:27,440
Like, how on earth does Alma
kill himself after Corey Anton

2169
02:01:27,440 --> 02:01:28,560
departs?
Corey Anton?

2170
02:01:29,080 --> 02:01:33,160
Well, maybe Corey Anton left and
he came back, and then he left

2171
02:01:33,160 --> 02:01:35,640
to the land northward to carry
provisions.

2172
02:01:35,640 --> 02:01:39,760
Maybe that's what happened.
And when Corey Anton did

2173
02:01:39,760 --> 02:01:41,560
abandoned, the Nephites
disappeared land northward,

2174
02:01:41,560 --> 02:01:43,400
never to return.
Nope.

2175
02:01:43,560 --> 02:01:46,840
Nope, they didn't come back.
Corey Anton never returned.

2176
02:01:47,280 --> 02:01:50,360
Nope.
So if he left to deliver

2177
02:01:50,360 --> 02:01:54,880
supplies to the people northward
who went with Hagoth, how?

2178
02:01:55,320 --> 02:01:57,480
How did that?
Why did Alma kill himself again?

2179
02:01:58,040 --> 02:02:01,160
Because he thought he drove his
son to commit suicide.

2180
02:02:01,480 --> 02:02:03,000
Yeah, I mean, somebody's lying
here.

2181
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:04,720
Corey Anton's lying or Mormon's
lying.

2182
02:02:05,560 --> 02:02:08,000
But if but if Corey Anton was
lying, you'd think Mormon would

2183
02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:12,560
point out that lie.
Well, look, that's supposing

2184
02:02:12,560 --> 02:02:14,280
that this record's true to begin
with.

2185
02:02:15,160 --> 02:02:17,320
Right, right, right.
Well, as I said, I'm trying to

2186
02:02:17,320 --> 02:02:20,040
give it the benefit of, of the
doubt to a degree, right?

2187
02:02:20,040 --> 02:02:23,400
I'm, I'm trying to, but this is
a historical consistency.

2188
02:02:23,400 --> 02:02:28,080
So again, my main point here is,
you know, if you like this

2189
02:02:28,280 --> 02:02:30,640
record, if you like the things
that teaches this is the God you

2190
02:02:30,640 --> 02:02:33,240
want to worship, all power to
you, right?

2191
02:02:33,640 --> 02:02:36,040
I've got no problem with that.
But if you're going to tell

2192
02:02:36,040 --> 02:02:40,440
people that this is compatible
with their faith and these

2193
02:02:40,440 --> 02:02:43,440
people believe in the Book of
Mormon, or if they believe in

2194
02:02:43,440 --> 02:02:46,200
the New Testament, or if they
believe in the Restoration,

2195
02:02:46,840 --> 02:02:51,640
Joseph Smith, any of this stuff
for a little great price, it's

2196
02:02:51,640 --> 02:02:52,920
not.
It's actually not.

2197
02:02:52,920 --> 02:02:56,000
This is a different gospel.
It's a different doctrine.

2198
02:02:56,640 --> 02:02:59,280
It's a different Jesus.
These are different prophets.

2199
02:03:00,080 --> 02:03:04,440
And you know, you're free to
choose what you want to believe,

2200
02:03:05,040 --> 02:03:07,200
but these are things you cannot
reconcile.

2201
02:03:07,680 --> 02:03:10,400
You know, you either believe in
free speech or you don't believe

2202
02:03:10,400 --> 02:03:11,560
in free speech.
Yep.

2203
02:03:12,000 --> 02:03:16,960
You believe in universal
exaltation or you believe in a

2204
02:03:16,960 --> 02:03:21,560
universal salvation.
You believe total marriage is a

2205
02:03:21,600 --> 02:03:24,880
is a something that God gave or
you don't.

2206
02:03:26,240 --> 02:03:30,240
You believe priesthood being an
order as is defined in Doctrine

2207
02:03:30,240 --> 02:03:33,160
Covenants or and is taught by
Joseph Smith or you don't.

2208
02:03:33,160 --> 02:03:34,720
You believe in baptism or you
don't.

2209
02:03:36,400 --> 02:03:40,040
This record for as much
interesting theology as it has

2210
02:03:40,040 --> 02:03:44,200
within it.
It is absolutely historically

2211
02:03:45,240 --> 02:03:48,320
and theologically incompatible
with the restoration.

2212
02:03:49,720 --> 02:03:54,080
And to be honest, I actually see
a really interesting connection

2213
02:03:54,080 --> 02:04:00,600
here with Islam of all things.
The reason I say that is Islam

2214
02:04:00,600 --> 02:04:05,160
is kind of also a, it's a
religion that kind of formed off

2215
02:04:05,160 --> 02:04:09,960
of Christianity and Judaism.
It copies and pastes some of the

2216
02:04:09,960 --> 02:04:12,560
characters in, right?
Like, you know, they, you know,

2217
02:04:12,680 --> 02:04:15,880
they believe in Moses, they've
got Abraham, Jesus was a

2218
02:04:15,880 --> 02:04:18,440
prophet.
So they're checking the boxes.

2219
02:04:18,840 --> 02:04:22,200
But their theology and their
gospel is entirely different.

2220
02:04:22,640 --> 02:04:25,480
And their theology and their
gospel is different because it's

2221
02:04:25,480 --> 02:04:31,040
designed to cater to a specific
people, right?

2222
02:04:31,040 --> 02:04:32,880
Because the Jews were God's
chosen people.

2223
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:34,880
Well, what about, what about the
Ishmaelites?

2224
02:04:36,560 --> 02:04:40,160
Well, well, I mean, I think
ideally they should convert to

2225
02:04:40,160 --> 02:04:43,400
Judaism, but that's not what
Islam proposed.

2226
02:04:43,560 --> 02:04:45,840
Islam proposed.
Instead we're going to copy and

2227
02:04:45,840 --> 02:04:50,000
paste from Christianity and
Judaism into our own religion

2228
02:04:50,000 --> 02:04:52,960
that sets up a specific people
as superior to any others, a

2229
02:04:52,960 --> 02:04:55,760
specific culture.
We're going to change the

2230
02:04:55,760 --> 02:04:58,600
doctrines to fit a culture and
that's that.

2231
02:04:58,600 --> 02:05:01,680
And that's what that's how you
get Islam, unlike Christianity

2232
02:05:01,680 --> 02:05:07,440
where Christ quotes the Old
Testament, well, all the time,

2233
02:05:07,440 --> 02:05:09,280
right?
It's, it is, there's probably

2234
02:05:09,280 --> 02:05:11,000
hundreds of references to the
Old Testament.

2235
02:05:11,200 --> 02:05:14,640
Christ explains how his theology
builds and fulfills the law of

2236
02:05:14,640 --> 02:05:15,880
Moses.
It's a completion.

2237
02:05:15,880 --> 02:05:19,200
It's adding to, right?
And we can see how the

2238
02:05:19,200 --> 02:05:23,440
restoration theology adds to
what we previously had left of

2239
02:05:23,440 --> 02:05:26,280
Christianity and it expands it
and adds to it and it connects

2240
02:05:26,280 --> 02:05:29,640
it and it fulfills all of these
things.

2241
02:05:30,080 --> 02:05:32,960
But when it comes to Islam, it's
not right.

2242
02:05:32,960 --> 02:05:38,480
It's kind of this other thing
that contradicts Christianity.

2243
02:05:38,480 --> 02:05:43,040
It contradicts Judaism, but it
lays claim of their it lays

2244
02:05:43,040 --> 02:05:45,240
claim on their theology while
contradicting it.

2245
02:05:46,080 --> 02:05:48,720
Well, I'm seeing the exact same
thing here.

2246
02:05:48,800 --> 02:05:52,440
This does not expand Mormonism.
This does not enhance the

2247
02:05:52,440 --> 02:05:54,040
restoration.
It does not add to the Book of

2248
02:05:54,040 --> 02:05:57,760
Mormon.
It actually detracts and it

2249
02:05:57,760 --> 02:06:02,080
contradicts those things while
copying and pasting aspects of

2250
02:06:02,080 --> 02:06:03,560
it.
Which?

2251
02:06:04,480 --> 02:06:07,080
Present so that it presents this
idea as if it's in addition.

2252
02:06:07,080 --> 02:06:10,640
It's a completion, it's a
fulfillment, but a true

2253
02:06:10,640 --> 02:06:16,280
fulfillment, a true restoration
of any of these kinds of things

2254
02:06:16,280 --> 02:06:20,920
would still have to be
compatible with everything else.

2255
02:06:21,200 --> 02:06:25,800
The eschatology here time and
time again is it they keep in

2256
02:06:25,800 --> 02:06:30,000
the Book of Mormon.
At the end of Moroni chapter 10,

2257
02:06:30,400 --> 02:06:34,280
Moroni asks us to to pray and
get a witness of the Holy Ghost

2258
02:06:34,280 --> 02:06:35,560
and know if the book is true,
right?

2259
02:06:35,880 --> 02:06:38,520
Right.
The Nemenha record, at the end

2260
02:06:38,520 --> 02:06:41,640
of almost every single book,
they bring that up and say, hey,

2261
02:06:41,720 --> 02:06:44,000
pray and ask the Holy Ghost if
this is true, Pray and ask the

2262
02:06:44,000 --> 02:06:45,720
Holy Ghost.
It's all over the place.

2263
02:06:48,040 --> 02:06:52,600
But I have a bit of an issue
with this because here's the

2264
02:06:52,600 --> 02:06:55,040
thing.
Before you pray and get a

2265
02:06:55,040 --> 02:06:57,160
witness of the Holy Ghost of the
Book of Mormon, you're asked to

2266
02:06:57,160 --> 02:07:03,160
ponder those things first.
And I will argue that Mormonism

2267
02:07:03,680 --> 02:07:08,640
at its core, is it a religion of
rationality.

2268
02:07:09,000 --> 02:07:13,040
Right.
We've got answers to things that

2269
02:07:13,040 --> 02:07:15,080
a lot of other religions don't
touch.

2270
02:07:15,080 --> 02:07:18,080
I was just watching some some
Christian debates and with

2271
02:07:18,080 --> 02:07:20,600
atheists and they get in hot
spots sometimes when when an

2272
02:07:20,600 --> 02:07:25,840
atheist says, well, why did God
make man some men wicked?

2273
02:07:26,400 --> 02:07:28,320
If God made everything, why did
he make some men?

2274
02:07:28,400 --> 02:07:30,800
That's a hard thing for
Christianity to come to terms

2275
02:07:30,800 --> 02:07:31,600
with.
Yep.

2276
02:07:31,880 --> 02:07:35,640
Why is there an eternal hell?
It seems a bit much for making a

2277
02:07:35,640 --> 02:07:38,520
mistake in this life.
Those are things that

2278
02:07:38,520 --> 02:07:40,680
Christianity really has to
struggle to come up with

2279
02:07:40,680 --> 02:07:42,160
explanations for and answers
for.

2280
02:07:42,160 --> 02:07:45,680
But it's it's very simple.
These answers are simple in

2281
02:07:45,680 --> 02:07:49,160
Mormon theology.
No, Hell's not Eternal hell is a

2282
02:07:49,160 --> 02:07:51,840
state of being, of separation
from God.

2283
02:07:51,840 --> 02:07:55,120
It's not about why does God give
us commandments?

2284
02:07:55,520 --> 02:07:57,520
Well, because he's God.
According to Christianity and

2285
02:07:57,520 --> 02:08:00,200
Mormonism, we believe God gives
us commandments because they're

2286
02:08:00,200 --> 02:08:03,440
in our best interest.
It protects us obeying the

2287
02:08:03,440 --> 02:08:06,760
commandments, protects us from
the effect of the cause of sin.

2288
02:08:07,360 --> 02:08:12,680
But all of this, all of this in
Mormonism, it brings greater

2289
02:08:12,680 --> 02:08:15,200
light and knowledge.
It is adding to and, and our

2290
02:08:15,200 --> 02:08:19,920
theology isn't just based off of
the Holy Ghost told me I had

2291
02:08:19,920 --> 02:08:22,480
feelings and the Holy Ghost told
me that the Book of Mormon is

2292
02:08:22,480 --> 02:08:24,520
true.
It's that when you read the Book

2293
02:08:24,520 --> 02:08:28,440
of Mormon, the truth of it
resonates in your soul.

2294
02:08:28,920 --> 02:08:32,000
This answers questions that you
didn't have answers to before.

2295
02:08:32,000 --> 02:08:33,960
This answers theological
problems.

2296
02:08:34,640 --> 02:08:37,880
It makes the gospel simpler.
It makes you understand who God

2297
02:08:37,880 --> 02:08:43,040
is that much more accessible.
And I see the exact opposite

2298
02:08:43,040 --> 02:08:45,800
happening here.
It's more confusing, it's more

2299
02:08:45,800 --> 02:08:48,200
distracted.
It's more, it's harder to

2300
02:08:48,200 --> 02:08:52,040
understand.
And so I, I think that our, our

2301
02:08:52,040 --> 02:08:56,960
faith, it is Mormons shouldn't
be just blind obedience to a

2302
02:08:56,960 --> 02:08:59,320
feeling from the Holy Ghost that
is a part of it.

2303
02:08:59,400 --> 02:09:03,440
But it's not the whole picture.
It's not the only origin of our

2304
02:09:03,440 --> 02:09:05,560
faith.
We also have faith in the Book

2305
02:09:05,560 --> 02:09:08,200
of Mormon as a scripture.
Right.

2306
02:09:08,640 --> 02:09:11,920
We have faith in the New
Testament, the the depictions

2307
02:09:11,920 --> 02:09:14,400
and the the witnesses of Christ
given in the gospel.

2308
02:09:14,400 --> 02:09:18,720
And we have faith in the
theology, the restored theology

2309
02:09:18,720 --> 02:09:22,880
that Joseph Smith brought forth,
that it answers questions so

2310
02:09:22,880 --> 02:09:26,600
that we can have faith in our
hearts and an understanding in

2311
02:09:26,600 --> 02:09:29,560
our head rather than just faith
in our hearts, right.

2312
02:09:29,720 --> 02:09:32,040
And that are full of question
marks.

2313
02:09:32,520 --> 02:09:37,080
Yep.
And so anyway, I guess it's a

2314
02:09:37,080 --> 02:09:38,800
hard thing to to cover this
stuff.

2315
02:09:38,800 --> 02:09:41,000
I think it was a hard thing to
study.

2316
02:09:41,000 --> 02:09:44,360
It took a long time to read
through it all and to organize

2317
02:09:44,360 --> 02:09:47,760
this, organize my thoughts on it
as well, just because it's not a

2318
02:09:47,760 --> 02:09:49,480
pretty thing.
Even if I disagree with the

2319
02:09:49,480 --> 02:09:53,040
faith, it's not a pretty thing
to, to, to, to analyze it and,

2320
02:09:53,040 --> 02:09:57,360
and deconstruct it.
And so I really wasn't trying to

2321
02:09:57,360 --> 02:10:01,320
do that.
I just want to be as open and

2322
02:10:01,320 --> 02:10:06,320
honest as I can because I'm
worried about how this is being

2323
02:10:06,320 --> 02:10:07,480
presented.
Yeah.

2324
02:10:07,920 --> 02:10:10,560
Right now, today, I could
careless about this record,

2325
02:10:10,560 --> 02:10:12,960
having read it now, I could just
go on, move on.

2326
02:10:12,960 --> 02:10:15,840
Except there's people out there
talking about this right now.

2327
02:10:16,360 --> 02:10:20,040
And mostly what they're saying
is, is that hey, this is an

2328
02:10:20,040 --> 02:10:23,080
enhancement of fulfilment of
Mormonism, right?

2329
02:10:23,080 --> 02:10:27,240
And I think people should read
it if you get a chance.

2330
02:10:27,240 --> 02:10:28,560
I mean, it was, it's kind of
dark.

2331
02:10:28,560 --> 02:10:30,960
It's very aggravating in some
places in some ways.

2332
02:10:31,520 --> 02:10:34,560
But I do think it's it's
potentially worth reading if you

2333
02:10:34,640 --> 02:10:41,240
have questions or doubts because
this is a different gospel and

2334
02:10:41,240 --> 02:10:43,600
anybody who's saying otherwise
is not being honest.

2335
02:10:44,240 --> 02:10:49,520
And, you know, one last thing I
want to end on this is a quote

2336
02:10:49,520 --> 02:10:53,200
from from John Taylor.
And it's kind of in relation to

2337
02:10:53,480 --> 02:10:56,240
how we know things are true,
right, Right.

2338
02:10:57,480 --> 02:11:01,560
This is from Journal Discourses
13 verse 1415.

2339
02:11:02,760 --> 02:11:05,240
I believe it is good to
investigate and prove all

2340
02:11:05,240 --> 02:11:08,800
principles that come before me,
prove all things, hold fast to

2341
02:11:08,800 --> 02:11:12,600
that which is good, and reject
that which is evil, no matter

2342
02:11:12,600 --> 02:11:17,680
what guise it may come in.
I think if we as Mormons hold

2343
02:11:17,680 --> 02:11:20,560
principles that cannot be
sustained by the Scriptures, and

2344
02:11:20,560 --> 02:11:25,080
by good sound reason and
philosophy, the quicker we part

2345
02:11:25,080 --> 02:11:29,680
with them the better, no matter
who believes in them or who does

2346
02:11:29,680 --> 02:11:32,360
not.
In every principle presented to

2347
02:11:32,360 --> 02:11:35,640
us, our first inquiry should be,
Is this true?

2348
02:11:36,400 --> 02:11:40,680
Does it emanate from God?
If He is the Author, it can be

2349
02:11:40,680 --> 02:11:43,560
sustained just as much as any
other truth in natural

2350
02:11:43,560 --> 02:11:46,680
philosophy.
If it is pulse, it should be

2351
02:11:46,680 --> 02:11:50,800
opposed and exposed just as much
as any other error.

2352
02:11:50,800 --> 02:11:54,920
Hence, upon all such principle,
upon all such matters, we wish

2353
02:11:54,920 --> 02:11:57,000
to go back to the first
principles.

2354
02:11:57,440 --> 02:11:59,880
Absolutely.
And I think that directly

2355
02:11:59,920 --> 02:12:05,760
applies to to this record and
how you approach how you

2356
02:12:05,760 --> 02:12:07,920
approach it.
Yep, Yep.

2357
02:12:08,400 --> 02:12:11,480
So, Mason, are you still there?
I am.

2358
02:12:12,200 --> 02:12:16,440
Did you want to add anything?
I mean, really, I, I think

2359
02:12:16,440 --> 02:12:20,400
Justin closed it up really well.
At the end of the day, you know,

2360
02:12:21,280 --> 02:12:24,720
we have Joseph Smith talking
about how we can set aside

2361
02:12:24,720 --> 02:12:28,000
anything that that does preach
anything separately.

2362
02:12:28,000 --> 02:12:33,720
We have that verse in Galatians
18 where the apostle Paul, I

2363
02:12:33,720 --> 02:12:38,880
believe it was, warns about even
angels coming and disseminating

2364
02:12:38,880 --> 02:12:42,920
different doctrine than what has
been previously established.

2365
02:12:45,240 --> 02:12:49,600
I think even if this came by way
of revelation, whoever received

2366
02:12:49,600 --> 02:12:51,720
it was not in tune with the
right sources.

2367
02:12:52,240 --> 02:12:57,640
And I think we can plainly see
that just given the things that

2368
02:12:57,720 --> 02:12:59,920
Justin has kind of outlined for
us.

2369
02:13:00,880 --> 02:13:03,680
Absolutely.
All right, here's what I want to

2370
02:13:03,680 --> 02:13:06,240
say about this and then and then
we'll wrap up here.

2371
02:13:06,760 --> 02:13:10,840
So I'm a big believer in you
shall know them by their fruits.

2372
02:13:11,240 --> 02:13:14,360
So let's just tally up the
fruits that we have seen thus

2373
02:13:14,360 --> 02:13:19,840
far in the record, OK?
Changes ordinances, calls good

2374
02:13:19,840 --> 02:13:23,400
evil and evil good.
The dates don't line up.

2375
02:13:24,560 --> 02:13:29,360
Its teachings do not correspond
with the restored gospel as

2376
02:13:29,360 --> 02:13:31,200
given by the Prophet Joseph
Smith.

2377
02:13:31,480 --> 02:13:38,200
The book is clearly not
Scripture if it I I agree with

2378
02:13:38,200 --> 02:13:41,680
Mason, if this thing was
received by revelation, the

2379
02:13:41,680 --> 02:13:44,880
source of that revelation has to
be in question.

2380
02:13:45,360 --> 02:13:48,160
And none of those standards that
I just said that are their

2381
02:13:48,160 --> 02:13:53,960
fruits are standards that I set.
Those are standards that quite

2382
02:13:53,960 --> 02:13:58,360
frankly, the Lord has revealed
through his, his the, the early

2383
02:13:58,360 --> 02:14:01,800
brethren of the Church.
So given that whole thing, I'll

2384
02:14:01,800 --> 02:14:05,280
just call it like I see it.
I'm not, I don't take pleasure

2385
02:14:05,280 --> 02:14:07,920
in this.
I'm not happy about this, but

2386
02:14:07,920 --> 02:14:11,960
this is not Scripture.
Now, I have no doubt that some

2387
02:14:11,960 --> 02:14:16,480
people will read this and they
will get some warm fuzzies from

2388
02:14:16,480 --> 02:14:20,640
it and maybe even draw out a
good life lesson or two.

2389
02:14:21,040 --> 02:14:26,400
But that doesn't mean it's true.
OK, you can go to a movie and

2390
02:14:26,400 --> 02:14:29,640
get a good feeling from a movie.
It doesn't mean that movie is

2391
02:14:29,640 --> 02:14:32,320
true.
It just means that that movie

2392
02:14:32,320 --> 02:14:34,920
had a a message that resonated
with you.

2393
02:14:36,200 --> 02:14:39,920
And I also want to speak to this
because I feel like it's the

2394
02:14:39,920 --> 02:14:42,280
time that we're times we're
living in right now.

2395
02:14:42,760 --> 02:14:46,560
You can want something that's
good too much.

2396
02:14:46,600 --> 02:14:52,320
I firmly believe that when we
look at at this particular

2397
02:14:52,320 --> 02:14:56,320
record, what this tells me is
this is what happens when you

2398
02:14:56,320 --> 02:15:01,240
want something to be true so
badly that you're willing to

2399
02:15:01,240 --> 02:15:08,920
suspend good sound judgment at
times to pin your hopes to it.

2400
02:15:09,360 --> 02:15:12,880
I get it.
We all as Mormons want to live

2401
02:15:12,880 --> 02:15:18,440
in that time where new scripture
bursts forth from the earth and

2402
02:15:18,720 --> 02:15:21,920
it it comes forth and it edifies
and it uplifts.

2403
02:15:22,600 --> 02:15:26,360
But just because we want this to
be so doesn't mean that it is.

2404
02:15:27,240 --> 02:15:30,960
And just like that quote that
Justin read from John Taylor,

2405
02:15:31,720 --> 02:15:37,440
Mormonism is unique amongst
Christendom in the sense of it's

2406
02:15:37,440 --> 02:15:40,800
going to connect the heart with
the head and it's going to make

2407
02:15:40,800 --> 02:15:44,600
sense in both of those places.
We see that this does not make

2408
02:15:44,600 --> 02:15:46,400
sense.
The dates don't line up.

2409
02:15:47,520 --> 02:15:50,800
And quite frankly, look, I'll,
I'll be honest, this was a good

2410
02:15:50,800 --> 02:15:56,160
attempt at new scripture, right?
And despite how hard they worked

2411
02:15:56,160 --> 02:15:59,960
at it, and I have no doubt that
whoever wrote this really worked

2412
02:15:59,960 --> 02:16:03,040
hard at it, but it should tell
you how unique the Book of

2413
02:16:03,040 --> 02:16:06,840
Mormon truly is in the sense it
can stand alone, It doesn't

2414
02:16:06,840 --> 02:16:10,960
disagree with itself.
It's a, a continuous story.

2415
02:16:11,320 --> 02:16:15,280
So as I look at this in
summation, I think you have to

2416
02:16:15,280 --> 02:16:19,760
look at this this this document,
the Neiman Hall record with a

2417
02:16:19,760 --> 02:16:24,360
raised eyebrow, understanding
that it's got severe doctrinal

2418
02:16:25,320 --> 02:16:30,240
flaws, severe flaws when it
comes to ordinances.

2419
02:16:31,600 --> 02:16:34,959
And quite frankly, if anyone
says, hey, I'm hitching my wagon

2420
02:16:34,959 --> 02:16:38,520
to this record, I think you
really need to call into

2421
02:16:38,520 --> 02:16:43,879
question that person's judgement
because I think that that it's

2422
02:16:43,879 --> 02:16:45,959
easy to be LED astray in these
things.

2423
02:16:46,280 --> 02:16:48,840
And that's that's pretty much
where I'll leave all this.

2424
02:16:49,320 --> 02:16:55,799
If you want the restored gospel,
go to the trusted sources, go

2425
02:16:55,799 --> 02:16:59,840
back to the Book of Mormon, go
back to the Bible, go back to

2426
02:16:59,840 --> 02:17:03,000
the Doctrine of Covenants, go
back to the Pearl of Great

2427
02:17:03,000 --> 02:17:06,600
Price, go back to the Journal of
Discourses, the words of Joseph

2428
02:17:06,600 --> 02:17:09,840
Smith and those early brethren.
That's where it lies right now.

2429
02:17:10,320 --> 02:17:13,559
I, too, look forward to the day
when new scripture comes forward

2430
02:17:14,000 --> 02:17:17,559
and we can, you know, look at it
and see that it meshes perfectly

2431
02:17:17,559 --> 02:17:19,080
with what's already been
revealed.

2432
02:17:19,719 --> 02:17:23,280
But this one isn't it.
And I don't take pleasure in

2433
02:17:23,280 --> 02:17:28,959
saying that I love people who
love this book, and it breaks my

2434
02:17:28,959 --> 02:17:32,240
heart having to do this.
But I have to call a spade a

2435
02:17:32,240 --> 02:17:35,320
spade.
And this has severe problems

2436
02:17:35,320 --> 02:17:39,920
that needs to be looked at and
it needs to be weighted when

2437
02:17:39,920 --> 02:17:41,320
you're making your decision
there.

2438
02:17:41,959 --> 02:17:44,040
Lead with your heart and your
head.

2439
02:17:44,680 --> 02:17:47,959
Seek God in your answers, and
you'll come out OK on the other

2440
02:17:47,959 --> 02:17:50,600
side.
Justin, anything else you want

2441
02:17:50,600 --> 02:17:54,280
to leave with before we wrap up?
Just reiterate some of those

2442
02:17:54,559 --> 02:17:56,440
points that you just made.
Yeah.

2443
02:17:56,440 --> 02:17:59,000
I think the appeal, one of the
potential appeals of this

2444
02:17:59,000 --> 02:18:02,600
record, in my opinion, is it
does call out issues in the LDS

2445
02:18:02,600 --> 02:18:06,200
Church.
And because those issues are

2446
02:18:06,200 --> 02:18:12,959
real, it's, it can become easy
to hear what you want to hear

2447
02:18:13,040 --> 02:18:15,639
and then build immediate trust.
This is something that I think

2448
02:18:15,639 --> 02:18:19,240
that we struggle with in this
post truth world because

2449
02:18:19,719 --> 02:18:22,280
nobody's sure anymore what's
true, what isn't.

2450
02:18:22,280 --> 02:18:26,280
You know, I think the media, can
you trust the media?

2451
02:18:26,280 --> 02:18:27,920
Can't you trust the media,
right?

2452
02:18:27,920 --> 02:18:29,520
The COVID vaccines, are they
going to help us?

2453
02:18:29,520 --> 02:18:33,639
Are they going to kill us?
What about the 5G towers?

2454
02:18:33,639 --> 02:18:35,920
Are those going to kill us?
Are they actually aliens under

2455
02:18:35,920 --> 02:18:37,799
the earth coming up and the
UFOs?

2456
02:18:37,799 --> 02:18:39,520
And we don't know what to
believe.

2457
02:18:39,520 --> 02:18:43,120
And we want grounding.
We want something to believe in.

2458
02:18:43,559 --> 02:18:48,080
And a lot of people have reasons
for feeling very disaffected

2459
02:18:48,080 --> 02:18:51,840
with the LDS Church.
And somebody proclaiming a

2460
02:18:51,840 --> 02:18:56,120
message that is critical of
that, that presents, it's easy

2461
02:18:56,120 --> 02:19:00,719
to latch on to that saying,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2462
02:19:02,080 --> 02:19:05,440
But you got to look at the whole
the whole picture here, right?

2463
02:19:05,480 --> 02:19:08,280
I mean, I can write.
I could.

2464
02:19:08,360 --> 02:19:12,360
I could write what I know would
be fake scripture that was

2465
02:19:12,520 --> 02:19:17,680
supposedly an ancient record
criticizing the prophesying of,

2466
02:19:17,760 --> 02:19:20,280
of, of criticisms in the LDS
Church.

2467
02:19:20,280 --> 02:19:22,360
I mean, I can even do that.
Anybody could do that really,

2468
02:19:22,360 --> 02:19:26,639
right?
And to me, the biggest litmus

2469
02:19:26,639 --> 02:19:30,040
test of scripture to knowing if
it's true or not is, is it in,

2470
02:19:30,040 --> 02:19:33,080
is it enlarging your, your
understanding?

2471
02:19:33,080 --> 02:19:35,600
Is it bringing, is it really
bringing you closer to God?

2472
02:19:36,080 --> 02:19:40,600
And this record for me was the
exact opposite.

2473
02:19:40,600 --> 02:19:42,280
I was hoping it would be
legitimate.

2474
02:19:42,320 --> 02:19:45,040
I really, I really was.
And I was, and I'm hoping that

2475
02:19:45,040 --> 02:19:49,440
something happens here between
Mormonism and the Native

2476
02:19:49,440 --> 02:19:51,440
American.
I'm, I'm a native descent

2477
02:19:51,440 --> 02:19:54,920
myself, like I said, and these
are topics that I, I really care

2478
02:19:54,920 --> 02:20:03,080
about, but I want to see my
brethren brought into the fold.

2479
02:20:03,080 --> 02:20:04,560
And they don't have to.
I don't think they have to

2480
02:20:04,560 --> 02:20:08,400
change their culture, but they
need to accept the fullness.

2481
02:20:08,640 --> 02:20:11,560
That was restored by Joseph
Smith, and that starts with

2482
02:20:11,560 --> 02:20:12,960
baptism.
Do they need to be members of

2483
02:20:12,960 --> 02:20:14,560
the LDS Church?
I don't think they do.

2484
02:20:15,120 --> 02:20:16,760
But they do need to receive the
ordinances.

2485
02:20:16,760 --> 02:20:18,680
They do need priesthood.
They need these.

2486
02:20:18,680 --> 02:20:22,000
This is the way that Christ has
laid out.

2487
02:20:22,560 --> 02:20:25,960
And he said He is the way, the
truth and the light.

2488
02:20:26,280 --> 02:20:29,320
No man cometh unto the Father,
but by Him, and He's laid out

2489
02:20:30,080 --> 02:20:33,360
that path.
And we don't do a service to

2490
02:20:33,480 --> 02:20:38,000
anybody, especially our Native
American brethren, by changing

2491
02:20:38,000 --> 02:20:41,840
those standards to appeal to
them and, and, and, and

2492
02:20:41,840 --> 02:20:46,160
presenting a polluted gospel
that's easy to swallow, that

2493
02:20:46,160 --> 02:20:48,880
makes them the heroes, that
makes everything that they're

2494
02:20:48,880 --> 02:20:51,160
doing right.
That doesn't require repentance.

2495
02:20:51,160 --> 02:20:54,200
Because the truth of the matter
is we all need repentance.

2496
02:20:56,240 --> 02:20:58,840
I have a lot of respect for the
culture of the Native Americans

2497
02:20:58,840 --> 02:21:02,520
and the things that that were
good in their culture, but there

2498
02:21:02,520 --> 02:21:05,760
were bad things as well.
And you cannot deny that we live

2499
02:21:05,760 --> 02:21:09,920
in a great world today in large
part because of the Western

2500
02:21:09,920 --> 02:21:13,160
advancements that the things
that have come from technology.

2501
02:21:13,160 --> 02:21:15,240
And there's again, there's bad
sides to it.

2502
02:21:15,240 --> 02:21:18,200
But you know what?
I I enjoy a warm shower, right?

2503
02:21:20,960 --> 02:21:24,840
I enjoy being able to, to all
these things, right?

2504
02:21:24,840 --> 02:21:26,880
I like having the computer right
here to be able to do this

2505
02:21:26,880 --> 02:21:29,880
podcast and they can the
Internet and all of this

2506
02:21:29,880 --> 02:21:31,760
technology.
These are these can be wonderful

2507
02:21:31,760 --> 02:21:34,040
things.
And so I don't think we have to

2508
02:21:34,040 --> 02:21:36,840
throw it all out.
We can recognize that there

2509
02:21:36,840 --> 02:21:39,760
might be problems in the LDS
Church and recognize that that's

2510
02:21:39,760 --> 02:21:41,960
true, but that doesn't mean that
everything in this record is

2511
02:21:41,960 --> 02:21:43,360
true.
And you have to then tie

2512
02:21:43,360 --> 02:21:48,080
yourself to that.
And to me the one of the most

2513
02:21:48,080 --> 02:21:49,680
interesting things that I've
learned through this whole

2514
02:21:49,680 --> 02:21:56,000
process was there's a scripture
in DNC Section 9 and in verse 8

2515
02:21:56,000 --> 02:21:58,200
it says, and this is Oliver
Calgary trying to translate the

2516
02:21:58,200 --> 02:22:01,240
Book of Mormon.
And it says, but behold, I say

2517
02:22:01,240 --> 02:22:03,800
unto you that you must study it
out in your mind.

2518
02:22:04,200 --> 02:22:06,160
Then you must ask me if it be
right.

2519
02:22:06,200 --> 02:22:09,880
And if it is right, I will cause
your bosom, I'll burn within

2520
02:22:09,880 --> 02:22:12,560
you.
Therefore you shall feel that it

2521
02:22:12,560 --> 02:22:16,840
is right.
It says study it out in your

2522
02:22:16,840 --> 02:22:18,520
mind.
Right.

2523
02:22:18,720 --> 02:22:21,840
And then you ask if it's right.
The Mavinar record says, ask if

2524
02:22:21,840 --> 02:22:24,880
it's right.
Don't think about it too much,

2525
02:22:24,880 --> 02:22:28,120
maybe because if you're not
thinking about it, you're going

2526
02:22:28,200 --> 02:22:30,680
to immediately reject it because
it doesn't fit with your

2527
02:22:30,680 --> 02:22:35,240
existing testimony and faith.
The other part of that is right.

2528
02:22:35,240 --> 02:22:38,800
After this it says, But if it be
not right, and you shall have no

2529
02:22:38,800 --> 02:22:42,080
such feeling, but you shall have
a stupor of thought that shall

2530
02:22:42,080 --> 02:22:43,680
cause you to forgive the thing
which is wrong.

2531
02:22:43,680 --> 02:22:46,240
Therefore you cannot write that
which is sacred.

2532
02:22:46,240 --> 02:22:49,840
Save it be given you from me.
That blew my mind.

2533
02:22:49,920 --> 02:22:52,200
You cannot write that which is
sacred.

2534
02:22:52,200 --> 02:22:56,280
Save it be given you from me.
That's the Lord speaking there.

2535
02:22:56,800 --> 02:23:00,160
And what I never really
understood was, I mean, the Book

2536
02:23:00,160 --> 02:23:02,240
of Mormon.
It's great, all right?

2537
02:23:02,280 --> 02:23:04,400
It's, it's great.
It's fantastic.

2538
02:23:04,880 --> 02:23:09,480
I never really appreciated,
though, how great it really is

2539
02:23:09,480 --> 02:23:12,400
when you consider other books,
like I'm a huge fan of Tolstoy.

2540
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:15,560
War on Peace is one of my
favorite books.

2541
02:23:15,600 --> 02:23:19,040
There's a lot of good stuff have
to pull out of that book as

2542
02:23:19,040 --> 02:23:24,360
well, but ultimately it's got
flaws as well because the book,

2543
02:23:24,360 --> 02:23:26,840
the truths presented in the
book, can only rise to the

2544
02:23:26,840 --> 02:23:28,720
standard of the person writing
it.

2545
02:23:29,400 --> 02:23:33,440
So if Tolstoy writes a, if
Tolstoy writes a book, it can

2546
02:23:33,440 --> 02:23:35,800
only cut it.
It can only have a quality up to

2547
02:23:35,800 --> 02:23:39,320
the level of Tolstoy.
If Joseph Smith writes a book,

2548
02:23:39,320 --> 02:23:41,840
it can only be as good as Joseph
Smith is himself.

2549
02:23:41,840 --> 02:23:44,080
If I write a book, it can only
be as good as me.

2550
02:23:44,960 --> 02:23:47,200
So where on earth do we get
scripture from?

2551
02:23:47,680 --> 02:23:50,360
Right.
What makes it scripture?

2552
02:23:50,360 --> 02:23:55,000
You cannot write that which is
sacred, save it be given you

2553
02:23:55,000 --> 02:23:56,040
from me.
Why?

2554
02:23:56,640 --> 02:24:00,080
Because Joseph Smith, Oliver,
Calgary, me, Tolstoy.

2555
02:24:00,440 --> 02:24:02,760
We're fallen men.
We have weaknesses.

2556
02:24:03,480 --> 02:24:06,720
And those things manifest when
you're trying to.

2557
02:24:06,840 --> 02:24:09,840
If you're trying, if you were to
try to write sacred texts, your

2558
02:24:09,840 --> 02:24:12,320
own flaws are going to manifest.
Your own weaknesses are going to

2559
02:24:12,320 --> 02:24:17,360
manifest.
I have immensely gained an

2560
02:24:17,360 --> 02:24:20,160
appreciation for the Book of
Mormon and my testimony of the

2561
02:24:20,160 --> 02:24:24,240
Book of Mormon through going
through this process.

2562
02:24:24,840 --> 02:24:27,000
Yeah, but.
It does make the Book of Mormon

2563
02:24:27,000 --> 02:24:30,040
more more remarkable.
It really does.

2564
02:24:30,040 --> 02:24:33,640
It really does, because I don't
have you don't have these issues

2565
02:24:33,640 --> 02:24:36,200
in the Book of Mormon.
Yep, absolutely.

2566
02:24:36,200 --> 02:24:38,080
And you have.
Stuff that fills your soul as

2567
02:24:38,080 --> 02:24:40,440
you read these testimonies of
Christ and these teachings of

2568
02:24:40,440 --> 02:24:44,720
Christ.
But again, I want to see, I want

2569
02:24:44,720 --> 02:24:47,800
to see our Lamanite brethren
restored just as much as anybody

2570
02:24:47,800 --> 02:24:50,160
because I'm a descendant myself.
Right.

2571
02:24:50,680 --> 02:24:53,480
But I will just say this is not
the way.

2572
02:24:54,880 --> 02:24:59,720
Polluting the gospel to try to
win converts among Native

2573
02:24:59,720 --> 02:25:02,720
Americans is not.
How it's done?

2574
02:25:03,320 --> 02:25:05,680
That's not how it's done.
We can do better than that.

2575
02:25:05,800 --> 02:25:07,160
I know we can do better than
that.

2576
02:25:07,200 --> 02:25:09,280
And we can still have faith and
hope that we're going to restore

2577
02:25:09,280 --> 02:25:11,160
those people, that they're going
to be recovered, that more

2578
02:25:11,160 --> 02:25:15,200
Scripture has yet to come forth.
But we don't need to force it.

2579
02:25:15,200 --> 02:25:18,840
We don't need to do it this way.
Nope, I agree, Justin.

2580
02:25:19,360 --> 02:25:22,320
That's what I want to say.
Good stuff, dude.

2581
02:25:22,320 --> 02:25:24,440
I know that was a halt to go
through.

2582
02:25:24,440 --> 02:25:28,160
I appreciate that.
Good stuff.

2583
02:25:28,240 --> 02:25:30,240
Next time, let's talk about a
happier subject.

2584
02:25:30,640 --> 02:25:32,000
Yeah.
Let's talk about a temple or

2585
02:25:32,000 --> 02:25:33,840
something.
Something, something good.

2586
02:25:33,880 --> 02:25:35,720
All right, man.
Stick around for just a few

2587
02:25:35,720 --> 02:25:37,280
minutes.
Bye everybody.

2588
02:26:08,000 --> 02:26:10,760
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.