Episode #60: Dave Goes To Relief Society W/Anne, Melissa, Andrea, Charlotte, & Terresa

0:04 One of the things we as fundamentalist and even traditional LDS folks fight against all the time of stereotypes, some of the worst stereotypes are reserved for women who are fundamentalist or traditional LDS. You hear the same accusations all the time. They all must wear Prairie dresses. They must be so beating down in oppressed. They must not be educated if they choose to live this way and the list goes on and on. Well I think those who hold and perpetuate those Stereotypes are about to have some serious pushback on this episode, I have five women on from various backgrounds and Mormon fundamentalism to talk about their experiences as Women Within fundamentalism. They are an hatch. Andrea Jessup, Charlotte Erickson, Melissa Erickson. And Theresa at the end of this conversation, I think those stereotypes will be shattered.

0:51 So buckle up, is I go to Relief Society on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast, So I want to take just a few moments here and just say, thank you for listening. I can never tell you how much it means to me that you spend your time here with me. Now, on top of that. Last year, I received donations, that help me upgrade the audio equipment and software. This year, I want to do the same thing for video. Now, if you want to help out and make a donation, you can do that by going to Mormon Renegade.com, and making a donation. They're also check out the Mormon Renegade, supply store at Mormon, Renegade.com, and pick up some merch. Now, if you can't do Do any of those I completely understand. It's not like it's been a banner year necessarily for our finances so maybe just keep the podcast in your prayers. Finally, as I've started to do more video, there's a YouTube channel up for the podcast but just between you and me. Yeah, I'm going to be there very long. So I have a feeling on my kicked off. So to stay one step ahead of that. I've made a channel on Rumble, so head on over to rumble, look up the Mormon Renegade podcast Channel there and Crush that like And subscribe button.

1:59 Thank you. Been very careful on this podcast to only advertise for items that I feel will add value and purpose in your life. That said, I've discovered a book that I really believe should be in every Mormons Library. The book is called beneath sheep's clothing. In this book, the author Julie be Ling breaks down the Communist infiltration into our schools institutions, and perhaps even most distressing our churches, the book backs up its claims with well cited sources. So you can go do the research yourself. This book will allow you to see the The Communist tactics and gives you the tools on how to combat this Insidious movement. In America, Julie is right now, trying to raise money to make the book into a documentary and I can't recommend donating to this cause strongly enough.

2:44 So head over to Mormon Renegade.com and you can find the link to buy the book and donate to the documentary in this episode page or scroll down to the very bottom of the landing page at Mormon, Renegade.com, to find a link to buy the book. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. I've received a couple different emails I shouldn't say a couple quite a few emails over the last six months asking to hear more from the sisters.

3:38 So I reached out to an hatch to maybe help me put together a panel that could talk about experiences and fundamentalism from from a woman's point of view. And so I have on Andrea Jessup and Hatch and Teresa, I'm sorry. I forgot your last name. I'm actually going to not use my last name perfect. See I knew exactly what I was doing and Charlotte and Melissa Erickson. So ladies, thank you for being here. It's good to be here. So you real quick, I just want to do a, you know, a quick introduction.

4:24 Excuse me, a quick introduction with everybody and we'll go ahead and we'll start with an All right. Hi I'm Anne and hatch and I was raised in the LDS church. Fifth-generation LDS were my family joined in like the Kirtland era of the LDS church, my hobbies include teaching, the gospel doing genealogy work, teach a genealogy class from time to time, gardening. And spending time with my family, I do have a degree in information. She and I work in that line of work, and I'm very lucky to be able to, to do that. I've served in many capacities in the LDS church and in Christ Church.

5:11 The branch. And I currently live in Nevada with my family, it's awesome. Theresa my name is Theresa, so I was not raised LDS. I actually joined the LDS church. When I was 14 years old, I got married in the LDS temple. When I was in 1991. So I was 19 when that took place and then in 96 is when we'd won fundamentalism and then we joined Christchurch the branch at that time. So, definitely a ride, you know, for from 14 to 20 to 26, you know, but It's been, it's been a good ride, you know, and there's been a lot of lot of good stuff along the way, and a lot of challenging challenging things, you know, I love Jenny ology, I'd been interested in genealogy for a long time and help me get even more interested in it.

6:15 I love cooking and I love working with herbs and doing gardening. That's awesome. Thanks Theresa, Andrea. So I'm Andrea just sup I I was born into the LDS church but my father started studying fundamentalism when I was about six months old and then he went on to join the AUB. We still continued going to church so I was seven and then we stopped going and we just Just completely went into the a b.

6:57 And so most of my use bent in the a UB but I also had a lot of experience going to the LDS church to just look at the differences and see see what it was and choose for myself. What I wanted to do. and, So fast forward years later and we are no longer part of the AUB. We are independent but still believe fully in the gospel and in in the teachings of the prophets. So awesome.

7:47 Thanks Andrea. Charlotte All right, so I'm Charlotte Erickson. I've been married to Joshua for 20 years and I have five children with him and about you. Yeah, this is Melissa. She'll have her own inch or two. But she has two children to, but we count all seven children as ours. All three of us were raised in the LDS church, and it's an interesting question. How did I convert to fundamentalism because really the plural marriage came first? Just before the fundamentalism. So, I was just going about my normal life.

8:29 And God just told me very clearly that Melissa was going to marry my husband. And it's owns story. That actually, Joshua is told his side of the story on this podcast. Several, you know, episodes ago. But obviously the church kicked us out and here we are. But so are religious Journey has been A long one. I think an interesting one because we were all faithful in the LDS church and then we convince Melissa to marry us and we had our own like version of fundamentalism going on and then together we kind of evolved. So it doesn't look so much like a Brigham Young fund amount mentalism but more like Abraham, Isaac. And Jacob.

9:17 I guess. So, that's what awesome. So, I find that that are grown and gone and our religious Journey has been very interesting what she said.

10:08 I'll have to kill nurse to come first. I was shows, I was convinced by them, but no, I received my own absoluteness that I'm supposed to be married to Joshua, and it's been interesting as we've gone through this journey because we've held to some truths that we believe in those are that God doesn't change. He's the same yesterday today and forever and that the rules are still the same and that Christ lived That flawlessly, he lived for a flawlessly. And so in our world to do what Christ did we follow the Commandments that were given at that time, as well as the enduring ones with the feast that are commanded to be done forever. And so we have our own project were working on which is called zarahemla Foundation, it's not a church. I Gathering Gathering of people who want to learn more about the feast about keeping Torah and how the scriptures really do on that job and it's really been very amazing. I've read the book of Mormon with different eyes, read through the filter of correlation as a child, and then, in seminary Institute.

11:28 And then I had a waking post-2012 and realize that I was a gentile. and now I'm reading it again, as someone who's the house of Israel front fruit for Brea cleanse and it's been Very, very sobering and very joyous at the same time. That's awesome. You know, as I've had the chance to talk to Joshua, I find his depth of knowledge just to be amazing. So I'm so thankful that, that there's folks out there like that who keep those Traditions alive, because it does show some types and shadows there, So let me start here. The bulk of the panel here, has converted from the LDS church and the one thing about Mormonism and it doesn't really matter what branch of Mormonism.

12:27 We're a very social people. We're people that like, to talk with others. We like those Gatherings. And so, in coming out of the mainstream, LDS church for again for those who had to make that change and Andrea Jessup. I got some questions for you. A tour since you were raised in fundamentalism for sure but real quick what were some of the hardships of coming out of the LDS church? I mean because it's not just again it's not just where you go on Sundays. It's it really is kind of who you are six days a week plus Sunday. So what was that? Like what were some of the challenges? And Feel free anybody to answer and we can just kind of take turns here going around.

13:15 I'll jump in, okay? And then free. So we'll go next because we both were like the same time. So, you know, for me growing up, I mean, I did grow up in Butte, I grew up in Idaho but very LDS Rich, you know, part of Idaho. And so for me, there was, there was the judgments, you know, it was People didn't understand how I could do this. They didn't understand why I would do this, you know, and their big concern was we got to show your husband. And that wasn't like, my biggest concern at all with, with any of it. I mean, it's not easy from time to time, but that wasn't my biggest concern as a sister, it was more of the, the Judgment for my Family and close friends that that killed me. And I was really hard, you know, growing up in the LDS church. I mean I'm an only child but I have a bazillion cousins and we all grew up around each other and to be disowned by the majority of them like four out of 50. Some first cousins will talk to me and That was really hard because, you know, we did a lot of things. We had a lot of family activities and stuff and I helped with all of those things with organizing and and to have them say well they wouldn't come

14:47 if I'd be there or just all kinds of stuff that was the hardest. But I think for me, you know, the most interesting part of why I did this was the doctrine and also because of genealogy So growing up my aunt, I had a couple answer did Jenny ology work professionally and my mom was into it, my grandmother and growing up. We used to go to the family history libraries, right, that they have. And I learned how to write because my grandmother would read the microfiche and she'd tell me what I was writing down and fill out the papers and then we started sharing stories and family home evening of our ancestors. And when when we heard the testimonies of my great-great grandparents and why they were living it and why they chose Mormonism, why they came to America in some cases Always set with me very deeply and I knew from a very young age and I actually even announced it once in our family home evening, that I would probably be living this one day. And, you know, the answer is, of course, we all will, you know, in the Millennium when Christ returns. And I was like, no, I don't know. I think it's going to happen before that. And and here I am, you know, the with all the doctrines of fundamentalism, you know, and Teresa and I Talk about this but plural marriage is only one

16:23 aspect of the many things. Yeah very little little really it is big but it's little you guys know what I'm talking about. Yeah I know but the best one for me my favorite is knowing who my heavenly father is knowing that I have a heavenly mother and being able to talk about her and to feel a connection and I just I love the atom God Doctrine the most out of all of them and I think that wasn't to me the doctrine wasn't the hardship at all. It was the losing of my family. That said, we always be together until we weren't. So has any of your family came back around now? And since you know, given the, you know, a little bit of time and that sort of thing, some of them, but not all. And I have an aunt and, and her Very strongly against anything, you know, in fundamentalism and they're very I guess staunch Mormons you would say.

17:28 And, you know, they I mean, my one actually did come to my mother's funeral, but after talking with another cousin, I said, you know, he says, well as Martha, I should have said her name, sorry, but it is she going to be around, is she going to be invited? And I said well, why wouldn't she come? Because in my mind, why wouldn't she come? She's family and so he talked to his sister and she called me. And she said, you know, here's her phone number. Why don't you call her and personally invite her? Otherwise she probably won't come. And so, it was hard, but I called her and I said, I want you to come and that was the first time I'd talk to her. and in years, I mean probably 15 to 17 years and she came and you know, she she give me a hug, we were a little distant, but I think it kind of opened up something because she actually talked to me since then, you know, after that one time before she passed away and you know it was a good conversation but I still have some cousins that they'll come to events but they're not going to like walk up and give me a hug and we're not going to talk about Time drinking, right? Awesome Teresa.

18:44 How about you? So let's I'm going to back up just a real quick. So I was raised in a foster family from 15 on. Okay. So I was joined the LDS church in 1415 went into the system. My foster parents were my Sunday school teacher and my those who were raised in the LDS church and know my mates teacher. Okay? So, my mates teacher and my Sunday school teacher, they took me in, they got their license and took me in as their Foster Child and I live with them and that. So if I talk about my parents so those are my parents that I talked about, okay, now jump ahead when we decided to join fundamentalism, I lost them too and that was tough, you know, that was really hard because at 15 I lost an entire family. And then at 26, I felt like I lost An entire family again. Now, my foster dad my dad.

19:52 He has come around and we are a lot closer now, so that's good. But my friend's it was really interesting at the time because I guess at the time, I never realized how judging people could be. I mean, I knew people could be judging but I mean, they throw a lot of, they think they know what they don't know, and that's what it comes down to, you know, it was. Oh, so he's going to get another wife and I'm like, whoa, you know, I guess maybe someday, you know, that wasn't why we came into it. That's obviously the first thing that everybody and And I say everybody Loosely, but the majority of the world will jump into fundamental fundamentalism. Oh, plural marriage for the world? Knows it as polygamy.

20:42 Right. You know, I like to call it plural. Celestial marriage myself, in regards to the doctrine. It was interesting because in my foster family, in my foster dad, I remember one day I went to church and I was really upset. I came home from church, I didn't take this. Sacrament that day. I was really upset and he can't comes home. And he says, why you shake the sacrament? And I said because I know what those boys were doing last night, I'm not taking the supplement and he was like, okay well you know it so he has a big talk with me about it'll be everything will be made right on the other side and that it added on and on. But then all of the sudden that conversation went into it, this is almost exactly what he said I can remember. It like we're sitting at the table today. It's just like, you know, the LDS church, they don't like to talk about Adam being God but you know, if you look at the scriptures, you know, Adam is gone and added up and I'm looking at him like okay.

21:45 And then years later, we're learning to Adam God, Doctrine. And that the LDS church doesn't teach a number. So, of course they do, you know? And I know they didn't but obviously, you know, people were still bleeding. It, they just decided not to talk about it because it would get them in trouble with the elders change, you know? So and then well, before we joined Christchurch the branch. We had a close friend of ours from out in the Colorado City area. He's in the Centennial area, he, he worked with my husband at the time he worked with him and he, he rented a room from us and he just happened to leave.

22:30 A lot of doctrinal books laying around, just happened to talk a lot about the principles you know of the gospel. And you know I actually learned a lot from him. You know, so I don't know for me accepting the doctrine. It really wasn't hard for me. Okay. All right. Yeah and you said, you said your dad is kind of come come around a little bit, right? Yeah. Actually. He's come around. I would say a lot. He says I'm his plural wife. Wow. Wow. That's wow, he likes joking around right. Yeah but you know, I think in, My honest opinion. You know, sometimes people have things that knock them down in life and it kind of makes you come around the other things in your life.

23:23 Sure, sure. That it's sad that things like that happen but sometimes that's that happens. Absolutely, so awesome. Well thanks Theresa, um, Charlotte Thank you. Yeah, that was actually a really rough transition. I'm not going to lie so I was just happily going along in my LDS Paradigm and Joshua was not as in the Box as I was and he tried for eight years of marriage to show me like more interesting doctoring than the scriptures. Hours and stuff.

24:06 And I was just so like blind to what he was trying to do. And then for some reason, I don't know why the timing was just right. I happened upon the idea of blood atonement and I was like, what the heck is that? And I searched blood atonement on lds.org and you want to know how many search results I got zero. None. There's nothing. And I was like, well, that's, it really bothered me because I thought here Is this? Supposedly Mormon Doctrine. And on the other hand, I've been taught that you're not supposed to learn about Mormonism anywhere but lds.org right.

24:49 So what what's a girl supposed to do? So I started reading about blood atonement on dangerous websites, you know, and I guess that was sort of the beginning of the end for me. But it was like, how do I reconcile like Brigham Young in general conference? Saying that, if you, if you don't believe in blood atonement, you don't believe in Jesus to nowadays the church issuing statements saying it was a false Doctrine. So I guess that was sort of my, I don't know why. Because to me, that's not that important of a Doctrine. It's not even something we can enforce in our current state of affairs. And so, the timing was just right for me, but there was a while there that I almost just Couldn't navigate the Minefield and just wanted to leave the church and stopped believing in God.

25:42 And because it was, I just felt lied to. And it was really challenging. So, I, but eventually I came to the point where I thought, well, the church is still the best place for me to hang out. And so I was in the church for a while thinking, this isn't all I was taught it was and yet it's still a great place to raise my A family and it's still the best I have. And so I'm just going to stay here. But like in my heart I wasn't so attached, anymore-- to the church and it was her also in the next couple of years that I started to realize that God actually didn't just want to teach me through prophets and general conference and the good books, he wanted to talk to me directly and that and Is news to me.

26:37 Like I knew I could pray to get answers. Like should you marry this person? Should you take this job, but I never considered that God wanted to like direct my day-to-day actions and like move me to do good things. And so when I learned that that was that was probably the biggest change in the way of looking at the world. Because now I started thinking, okay, I can keep all the Commandments of the church is teaching and I can Also start receiving personal revelation at the same time. So the very first personal revelation I got that was like not something that people around me were doing was I had the feeling that I should start wearing skirts and dresses all the time and stopped wearing pants and I thought well if I heard that in general conference I would but then I realized this was God talking to me.

27:30 So I started wearing skirts and dresses all the time and it really bothered my dad. He sought, he noticed, I never even told him, he just noticed that I'd stopped wearing pants and he said, he said, why do you only wear skirts? And I said, because I feel like that's what God's telling me to do, dad and I thought he would respect that, but it made him really nervous because over his life, he's seen people kind of slightly alter their course, and they're not. So, in the box and he's seen that they end up thinking for themselves too much. And so he said, if you start wearing only dresses, you're going to end up in southern Utah. As a polygamist performing Temple endowments in your living room, that's what he said.

28:19 And he also tried to convince me wear pants because he told me that the wives of the LDS Apostles wear pants. And and I said, okay, like am I supposed to pattern myself after the wives of the Apostles? But do you even know if they've had their calling election? Made sure. Like why am I copying Them. So that was like really surprising. I felt like I'd cast Pearls Before Swine, like sharing this personal spiritual experience, and then having him just rejected. And so, that was kind of the beginning of my religious parting from my dad. And then, and then later when I became a polygamist that was that was the beginning of a very rough. How many years with my parents five years? It was really bad.

29:04 He so he at first when I told my parents that Melissa was my sister wife and we've been keeping it secret for some time, it wasn't like they were invited to the wedding or something. Okay, like it already happened and so I told them and my parents were awesome in that. Very first conversation, my mom said we didn't get to choose who you married. We didn't get to choose when you had children. Don't get to choose our family, it's only our job to accept it and love you. My dad in that initial conversation told me that he would love Melissa as a daughter. And and then, literally, I don't know what happened. He spent the night with the devil dud. Next day, he had typed up this letter. For me, calling me to repentance accusing. Joshua of adultery basically, calling Melissa whore and stuff. It was really, really bad.

29:57 So, We just guess I shouldn't go into too many details of this. Make too long of a story, but I will say, they've completely come around. My siblings lives have all totally Fallen apart and and so they look at us now and they're like, oh wow, like the majority of our grandchildren and his family. They're very religious. They have a beautiful family, very highly functional doing great with the kids and everything is. So now it's like they can see that. What we're doing is good for for children and good for families and my dad. So, okay. I want to include this point which is that it really bothered my dad to imagine that I was keeping a corrupted version of his religion. That was what bothered him is because I told him, I still believed in Mormonism and that I was just taking the religion, he'd given me and Following God within it and he couldn't wrap his mind around someone, keeping such a ugly in his mind version of his religion.

31:09 But the moment he realized, oh, she has a different religion than made, then he was totally fine with it. And so, I don't know how he finally came to that realization, but that was, that was good. So, my parents is the most exciting, like, they fully accept us. They come too many of our events and and Are still very LDS to like they haven't changed their religion at all, but just our relationship with him has changed. That's probably the biggest difficult thing that has happened. I've, of course, lost friends and other family, too, but I still like cross my fingers that my parents will someday, like, believe closer to what we believe, but we still have tons in common with them. And we just try to focus on her our similarities and not our differences Melissa before I get to you. Just, I want to point out a couple of things here. First off, I find what you said there, Charlotte really inspiring, right?

32:07 Because I think there's no guarantees that folks will come back around. All we can do is just hold to the convictions that we've been given and then put the rest in the Lord's hands and let him work on people. Yeah, when it does work out, it's beautiful. The other thing I'd say is that sometimes we forget that, when it comes to the LDS church, we still have more in common than we have differences. Right? And I think sometimes if we can can position things to to show what were for and not necessarily what we're against that can help smooth that over. Yeah, I have just one quick follow-up question for you Charlotte because I think this is very applicable. You said, as you were going through this dark period, as you're going through this phase transition kind of a crisis. You get to a point to where you're thinking about, well maybe God doesn't exist.

33:01 Did I understand that correctly? Yeah, I did go. Through it. And I find this very timely and kind of important because I think a lot of folks are either going through this or they're about to go through this with all the upheaval in the LDS church and so people are going to be faced with this with this this choice. Because if you look at Mormons in general, they don't necessarily become Baptists methodists or do anything protestantism. And I think it's because the promises with in Mormonism are so great. That you're like well if I can't have that, why would I want to hang out on a cloud? Playing a harp all day right what was it? That ultimately got you from that as you're making that choice between well maybe God just doesn't exist at all to, okay?

33:49 Now we're just going to go right after the full enchilada, right. We're not gonna we're not going to waste time with anything else we're going for. What was that? Yeah that's a that's a really good question. I'm actually glad you asked because it it was like I was a little too black and white little too scientific about things and it was like either God exists in the version of that. I think he should or there is no God at all. And it was a lot of thinking and honestly talking to Joshua that helped me to realize that. Well, first of all, I realized that I was really unhappy and to me that was Of the fruit of atheism was like, I wasn't happier. I wasn't more productive, it wasn't serving my family better and being a better mom, any of those things. It was like I was just depressed and angry and you know, just letting things that I used to care about just fall apart and stuff.

34:51 And and so I was like, well, how could I choose this over? What I had before? Because what I had before was sort of a blind faith. And yet it led me to make good decisions with who to marry and what to To do with myself and how to what, to teach my kids and stuff. And so, I thought, what I had before was better than what I'm doing right now. And I also studied like history and there was one lie. I don't think this was part of it, but since this has happened, I've heard Benjamin shaper, say all theories are false, some theories are useful and that kind of sums up. I'm going to try to describe now which is the realization that we have Choice.

35:39 When it comes to what we believe the leaf and testimony isn't something that happens only to you, although it can, you can have an experience where it totally changes what you believe, and you had no control over that. But on a day-to-day level, you can choose to believe something even if you can't intellectually defendant. Explain it to someone else and I realized that believing in God, number one and number two, what that looked like which for me is Mormonism is a much better way to live life than just being an angry atheist. So there was one like 3:00 in the morning conversation with my good husband where I was just like desperate on this precipice.

36:33 And I finally had this major like lightning bolt moment when I said wait, so you're saying that I can choose to believe in Mormonism. It's not that I have to wait for God to come bear. Witness of it to me somehow. And Joshua said, yeah, that's what I'm saying. And it just shocked my system because I never thought of belief as a choice before. And so and then I thought, well, choosing to believe in the best. Best I have and I think Mormonism does have problems and so I guess that was where I was getting kind of hung up, but it was like it's still the best so it's like if you look at scientific theories, you know, Christopher Columbus believed that the Earth was round and there were astronomers that came later that taught that the Earth revolves around the Sun and none of that is the complete picture, which is that not only is the earth round.

37:30 Not only does it revolve around the Sun but the Sun Isn't even the center of the universe. The sun is just a star in the middle of a galaxy. In some far-flung, corner of the universe, but you don't have to have the complete picture to have something useful which is that the Earth is round were before we thought was flat. So I feel like Mormonism. It may be the exact version that I believe doesn't have every single detail about every single truth that there is. But it's way more useful than believing that the Earth is flat, which is what the atheists. Is metaphorically, believe so to me, my version of Mormonism is the most useful religion that I can find.

38:15 And I'm open to further light and knowledge, but I'm way happier now than when I went through my atheist phase. And I much just a better person to be around and stuff, I'm sure. So, I guess that's what it comes down to is that you can choose to believe the thing that's most useful. Even In if it's not the complete truth, I got you. Yeah I think that's absolutely awesome and I'm about to reveal. Just how flawed I am because I think I want to actually put that on a t-shirt that atheists are flat earthers. I think that's good. So um, I might be a special melding, what's that? The interesting melding of Genesis and Atheism.

38:57 That's right. So how about you Melissa? Oh boy. So I wasn't raised in your togs race in Colorado, mostly in some in New Mexico. So I didn't have a large community about the yes to draw from in one area that we lived in. We to drive 40 miles to a church and so we'd make a day of it. We drive our 40 miles of potluck casserole, and we'd spend the rest of the day with the members, from our Branch. Good people. Really good people. So that's right. Ooh, up in. And I went to BYU graduated from BYU. Unmarried, which apparently is some cardinal sin. and then, Over. And I'm going to give you the long story short, but I had two failed marriages.

39:46 And in 2011, my Relief Society president she and her counselors decided that the goal for the relief society sisters was going to be to pick scriptures and just read whatever you decided to read there was no, there were no parameters and so we got has little card and were to write down where we're going to realize, I was just going to get through them all and I I had done that in a really long time, because every time that I started to read the scriptures, It was like this morning Bell would go off in my head because I could match up what I was reading in the word and what was being taught to me from the pulpit and so I just decided I'm going to read scriptures, no matter what. And at the time I was in a failing marriage, I was working through whole time, I had three kids. The only time I could come up with to read, scriptures was when I milked the cow in the the morning and on my 45-minute commute to work and back three days a week. So that's what I committed to.

40:56 And I started the New Testament and I just over the course, the next about 10 months or year, or just buried myself in the scriptures, every opportunity I had which wasn't much outside those two windows, just buried myself in what you Christ, actually, say, and started to unravel what I believe to be true. Because I've been Caught it and what was actual truth and just began to tease that out and didn't even go into church history or anything like that. I didn't have some of the things that other people are stymied with. I know that one generation was never taught about plural marriage or the priesthood ban.

41:38 And so that was a big shocker after they defended, you know, they've been confronted with the truth, defended the church in the falsehood and then came back to the truth. I was taught from a young age, these things. These correlation began the year. I was born and so there are still a lot of older people in the church who had good memories of being taught things that weren't correlated being taught church history. And so when these things that are very terrifying and horrible to people pop up that just hadn't affected me at all. And so the way I like to describe when someone who hasn't been taught Things are, it's been actively avoided like the church educational system was Notorious in hiding these things. And we find in the teaching of the presidents of the Church in Brigham Young's book.

42:31 It even says, like it just puts forth. This idea that he was a monogamist. And it, and if you are able to, I mean, it's online. If you want to go on the Church website and pull that and go through, it never does it mention that all the wives that he had or anything. So when people are ended with this, I kind of equivalent it. And I've said this many times to getting bad haircut. So when I was in college, I got a bad haircut and I didn't know. And so I went home and I'm in the mirror and my roommate's was laughing and I'm like, what's going on? And she said, your hair is, like, porridge is longer on one side than the other and I'm like, what is the Godmother mirror?

43:12 Yes, indeed. It's a total mess and I don't have difficult to cut hair but whatever. So I went Back to the person who cut my hair and I said, you have, I need my money back, like I know I just knew my money back. She's like, well I can't give you your money back but I can fix your hair and I don't like you just butchered my hair. I there's no way I'm going back to you to fix this and I ended up leaving with no money and no haircut because she wouldn't budge and I wouldn't budge. And so that's what I think really happens to people that they're confronted. And with this truth in history and they have been lied to. Okay?

43:55 That's that's real. They've been lied to or it'll all be really generous. It's been concealed from them and they have gone so far as to defend the concealment, not knowing it's been concealed and then the church kind of did a backpedal like oh well we'll put the these these items back on the website and then we can explain it all away. Why? You know? And there's never an accounting. There's never an Accounting for all the decision-making that took place to keep that out of common knowledge and at the same time, you know, we as members only have ourselves to blame for, not digging these things out. I mean the history is there, the scriptures are there. And personally, I was lazy for a lot of years in not searching out in the scriptures and in history, the truth. And oh, gosh, the truth, the trees are great and interesting and terrifying and there's a huge paradigm shift that takes place.

44:59 But, you know, I just want the truth and I told the Lord that one point, like I just want the truth. I'm driving in my car, like, really upset. I want the truth and I was told you can't handle the truth. Dude, it sounds like Jack Nicholson. Tell me a sound like jacket. And I get to hold her while you're too little like that exact phrasing. You're too little and I'm not one to back down and everybody that knows me knows I'm the person who's always trying to find the way around and so I just said to him well then make me big like I'm not going to take no for an answer.

45:47 I want the truth, I don't care what it takes to get there and that's kind of evolved into. I want to be one of God's favorites and everybody can be. That's the beauty. Everybody could be God's favorite. Yeah, that's awesome. There's also prices to pay and just to kick back around you. I have children that are grown that I didn't speak to me for two years. Absolutely. So sorry. I bet, you know what, they're all back. I mean, they don't aren't fundamentalist, but we have a good relationship. We have good conversations. There are people that I've had to leave behind and there's my parents. They're, they're not involved in my life anymore. They They are not grandparents to my voice. Charlotte's parents have really risen to the occasion and they have just accepted them as their own grandchildren. And so, yeah, that's so awesome.

46:46 I like what you said there about, then make me big, right? And I think what that shows is that there is you when you're pursuing this, there's a certain amount of tenacity that you have to have right where you have to be willing to be backed up against the wall. And then just keep going, just keep going through any wall you have to to get to get what it is. You know. It's kind of like did I don't know. This is an older generation thing that if anybody's ever seen. Cool Hand, Luke. Hmm, there's a scene in there, where he, in this fight with this very, very big man and he is getting beaten to a fault and he just keeps getting up and he stands there.

47:28 Any turns this big, man. He says, you're gonna have to kill me. Right and everything. Just stops because they know that he will never. There's no quit. There's no quit in him. Right? Right. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I think we have to have that same tenacity, when, when we go down this road and understand, there's going to be bumps along the way and setbacks and, and all the stuff that goes with it. But yeah. Yeah, tenacity is huge in this. Thank you for sharing that. I know those are sensitive things and I I take for granted that sometimes because I have a different a little bit different. I mean, my mom was a full-fledged hippie, right?

48:11 My old man passed away when I was 13 so I didn't have any of those things to lose and it's something I continually have to check myself with and understand you know you didn't have those same same. You didn't have much to lose in doing that and I understand that that that was pretty sensitive stuff. So I appreciate everyone sharing their Andrea from. Yeah, go ahead. What were you gonna say? I thought you were going to skip. No, no, no real quick. You you were pretty much raised in fundamentalism. So I'd like to talk for just a second. If you don't mind about what it was like, being raised in fundamentalism, right? Do you remember point at which you looked back and went, you know what, my family doesn't look like other's families. Azure these people who say they're Mormons, they're they're a little bit different than me.

49:07 What what are some of the unique things you can? You can look back on now and go. Yeah, that was unique as compared to most other folks. Gosh, that's kind of hard question for my opinion. I don't feel like I don't feel like we were super unique. Okay but we did experience some interesting things within the AUB. We my father was interested in what they called the United effort which was not quite a United order but they were more of They were more of like a group of men that wanted to talk about the gospel a lot. And you know, I was too young to understand everything that was going on but they they did a lot of meetings together just discussing the deeper doctrines of the gospel and part of the, Part of the thing that I did experience was when my parents were transitioning from the church to the AUB. Was that my my mother had a

50:40 really hard time. She didn't let her family know. And so she would tell us to not say anything or to not to talk about it around them. So I think I grew up a little bit scared about what people would think when I was growing up. So, I'm not sure exactly. No, I think. No, no, no. I think you hit on something. That is, is really important to understand and that is as fundamentalist, there are societal scars there, right? I mean, we look back at like the short Creek raids, those sorts of things, and those leave a deep Scar and what what your parents generation had to do with in fundamentalism. Just to preserve the truth.

51:45 I think needs to be commended greatly because I'm what I'm doing here right now. What we're all doing here right now is kind of an outgrowth we're standing on their shoulders a little bit right? They kept it alive so those things could be passed on and we've now entered in a Time both for better and For Worse. Right? Where where anything goes so to speak but this allows us now to have these conversations. Also, I think what you said, Out, you know, having to be a little quiet about it. I think that's a very unique perspective that a lot of kids aren't raised with and I think that that deserves to be recognized and valued for what it is.

52:30 Yeah, I I think I lost you a little bit. There are internet's, not the greatest. Oh, I was just saying that that what you'd said about having to hide a little bit. You know, I think that's a very, very unique perspective because there's some sustained some societal scars there as far as fundamentalism because of the short Creek, raids and whatnot. But yeah, um, what's in the AUB? yeah, it was definitely something that they were afraid of was letting people just anyone know who they were if people had questions you know it was highly screened I think because because they were afraid and paranoid of something happening again that happened before which was the the many of the men even within like, Many of the men.

53:40 They went to prison for the principal and I know that there were a lot of women especially within the auv, the older women who remembered and so, yeah, I guess it was it was just who brought up having to be kind of quiet because I also like I had friends that were polygamists children because I wasn't, I wasn't raised polygamist, but I had friends that were polygamists children that people look down on them, and they They treated them badly. And so there was actually a lot of things like that, especially, I would say, especially in the 70s 80s. Where I grew up you know?

54:46 Gotcha gotcha. Well that's awesome. I appreciate everybody sharing here. So David wouldn't bring that up a little bit. As far as you know the fear our family hasn't really been touched by that very much when I joined the family, it was a felony. And then with the brown Utah case that went before it became a Legal for a period of time. And so About nine months. I guess that's about six months after joining the family. And then about 9 months after, I joined the family, my parents decided that they weren't going to bring my kids home from spring break.

55:31 And so it was this this window, you know, where it was a legal and so when they called the police on me and women they call DCFS, nothing was done. But, and I'd already been dealing with DCFS bees at this is husband used to call on the regular. So when they police showed her my door, I was like yeah, come on in, how do you want a snack? But I didn't have that very real, very based fear of the authorities coming into my home. And part of that was because again, I'd already been dealing with some of that.

56:13 At with a prior husband but also because I had no reference point for that with family and children being taken from their mothers and also because it was a legal and I think that that would have been handled very, very differently. If I had that familial scarring and then generational scarring and I think a lot of Grace has to be given to people who are leaving Sex and they are realizing that they're going to be okay. Yeah. They don't have to hide and they don't have to conceal their background and they don't have to conceal the parentage of their children and all of these things.

57:00 Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with you, you know, and that's something that took me once I really do Vin the fundamentalism and start talking to people. That's something I realized in in pretty short order, was that? Those societal scars are still there, right? Especially, especially for those spiritual Giants, whose shoulders we stand on today? They paid the price in a way. That I'm so glad I haven't. Also, I'm glad I was born in this day and age because I'm way too blunt to not keep something quite like, when, when Tanya came into the family, the word I used to attend the, the bishop lives across the street, and he came over.

57:49 He's like, so how you been doing? I'm like, I'm good. And he's like, what's going on over there? And I just went nothing. Your ancestors would have been proud of, and then just kind of walked away. But So my point is, we don't have to deal with that, right? And and so I think I think we kind of owe it to those folks in a little bit to, to be out there a little more, right? And and I think that that speaks volumes that that you guys have agreed to come on. So all right, so for those who don't belong to a group and I actually do want to hear from from an and Teresa on this as well. But for Independence, so Melissa and Andrea and Charlotte. How do you guys manage to like Foster Sisterhood outside the family, right?

58:39 Because within the LDS church, you have released society and realistically. That's where 90% of the work gets done in the LDS church and, you know, I only say 90 and not 99 because I'm trying to be nice to the guys, but that's really the truth, right? How do you, how do you guys? Foster, that kind of Sisterhood outside of a group, Well, on Facebook, I admin for the morning sentimentalism. What is it? The Mormon fundamentalist Relief Society? Okay, and then we also have.

59:24 I also hadn't been for the Mormon fundamentalist Relief Society Fellowship Hall and those are More specific to like-minded women. And then I also I also have a like I'm an admin for the principal and education which is basically for women who have questions more about the principal and you know polygamy and I find that a lot of them still are interested. I stood in the religious aspect that, They're just fascinated by it Browns, a lot of ways because because, you know, that's like the big news in especially in these days and and then I also have friendships with women that are like-minded. Some people in Missouri that I am That I have association with and you know, it has been lonely. Where I am, it's been very lonely. So I have missed having that

1:00:57 weekly thing sometimes, but at the same time, I also know that I also know that. I think I have a different. Maybe a different. I'm trying to think the word. I think heavenly father has something for me and I'm not sure what I haven't felt to go back to any group or join any group since then. I've been very blessed in in the blessings that I have received and No, I know.

1:01:58 I know I have I have my own mission. No. So That's awesome. Charlotte and Melissa. Do you guys want to take a stab at that too? Okay, you know, I oh gosh, this is very like, show myself. So when I became a single mom, I've no longer met criteria to be a good member of the church essentially and was treated as such. Which, you know, I was, I was pretty bad. Two, women who were divorced and the church, there's there is a stigma maybe less so, but now, but at the time I just Kind of, kept my mouth shut and my head down because what could I possibly contribute as someone who had a failed marriage.

1:02:56 So, I was thinking, four and a half years, and then I married, someone who is less active and so my kids, you know, and I just We just weren't really acceptable or accepted which was fine. I mean, just like I just had less skin in the game and then I also am a nurse and so I worked every other weekend. So I took some heat for that until someone had a grandchild get born on my unit. So then suddenly it was, oh, we're so glad you're at work on Sunday. So for me, it It's been a loss to some degree, as far as the niceties and the neighbors.

1:03:42 being in a group, but We have a fellowship that runs about twice a month and then we also keep the feasts. And so we kind of try to bring people to us more than anything and then otherwise it's Facebook and Marco Polo and what are you doing the other than our stuff to? Well that was your brings a lot of people to our house. We have Fellowship every other Sunday and we have Monthly and annual events as well. And so, the phase I'm in right now is I'm got all these kids needing me and they need a social life too. So I focus on the whole family stuff and so we'll have fellowship and whole families, come to that and I'm excited when there are children that come, that are my kids is age. So they have someone to hang out with and then after a meetings, we have a pollock and people stayed sometimes for hours and that so that's I guess when I get my fill of like talking to Are women and stuff, but I also have a few friends and my mom that I talked to on the phone or on Marco Polo the socialized that way.

1:04:56 So maybe in another Faisal want to do something else a few years ago, actually Melissa, and I started a group called Utah, United Sister, Wives. We started that on Facebook because the purpose of that was to get together. Women, who were currently Sister Wives, or past or future, like, People who are interested in practicing for our marriage to hang out. And so we used to host Monthly events. I think that it was just for the women and I think maybe we had one whole family event, but usually it's just the women and maybe we'll do it again sometime right now, we're kind of busy with our tiny kids, you know, and so we haven't done that for a while, but sometimes someone from that group will reach out and say, hey, you guys should plan something again, so I don't make really sure but the value we try to focus on the fellowship.

1:05:45 I guess it's like family stuff and nobody's really felt moved upon to do something. Just everyone in right and I'm old and I have tiny kids. So little sleep. So now I got you. I understand that. And Theresa what does Relief Society look like in the branch? Spell and wanted me to start with this one so I'll start. So so we have meetings every every Sunday first, there's an array of meetings that range from something spiritual to something that you might be learning.

1:06:31 So, but explain that. Well, okay, for example, a few years back, I talked about how I love herbs and I really get it into herbs and everything like that. I did I put together books that were called natural home remedies and so I would talk about I put together a whole section on colds and flus. I put Whether a whole section on stomach flus, I've been told sex together on East and fungus and, and just all these different problems that you could come up with, and hope and try to treat them yourself without having to go to a doctor. If you weren't able to go to a doctor. So you want it to be able to have these things on hand, because I can't tell you before, I did that. Okay, even since I've done that, I get calls all the time. Hey, I got this going on.

1:07:29 I got This isn't this beep. I get a lot of personal information from people. Okay, I got it. So, we did that. That was one of the classes. I did that every month and we were putting out and we're talking about fairly large volumes of books that I put together for that class. So, again, they have other other things too, that other people do. So sometimes they do different nights. Knightly things other days of the week and Anne's going to talk about that Saturday's. We Charlotte and Melissa have been here. So they'll know we do work parties and you know you've been here.

1:08:15 Yep. So we do work parties every Saturday on. So every Saturday work party consists of for the most part men and women, sometimes they're combined, sometimes the women off the men, sometimes the men will Help the women, especially during gardening season, it's definitely mixed up there and we still a variety of people. Today's Saturday, I've been over here at our church building since 6:45 this morning, I made breakfast for everybody which probably was about at least 60 people. Well, you know, that came to the work party and so we had breakfast and then immediately following the work party, And we all break up into what are different.

1:09:01 You know, things are the men went to what they were doing. I run the women's side of it, so I get everybody lined up on the women's side of it and what they're doing. So today we had we were making french bread today. So we made french bread, we'll have a couple of other girls, I will come in and get lunch ready. So that Lunch is ready and we can eat it there during that time and And let's see, there was about four of us we were getting stuff ready for the fries. Dryers get them all clean. Get things loaded into going to that sometimes we're running dehydrated or scanning sometimes they're working green houses. A variety of things that we do as the relief society and as a whole church, you know?

1:09:47 So where we have meeting on Sunday, we're together every Saturday and Vance going to talk about some of the other stuff that we do. I get everything you, you got, do too good. But what you're going to talk about now. So I have other things to say. So, you know, we have I wasn't released to study teacher here for years. I don't know, at least ten maybe longer and you know our relief societies on Sundays, we have lessons, there's a spiritual us and there's a lesson on on church history, there's lessons on things that are fun. Like, you know, Teresa also did like we did tease, we've Made Easy, you know, Pour soap for Relief Society.

1:10:30 We've also made some candies around the holidays to teach kids, you know, young women and and the US older women, how to have fun making candies for the holidays, different as a Relief Society things. So that was a lot of fun, but we also do like enrichments, like she said, homemaking depending on where you are in life, how you might know that phrase, but we do things like a couple weeks ago. We Friday night where we made homemade goat soap and taught everybody, how to make soap from scratch and that was a lot of fun. We've done some other things you know, with quilting and stuff. If you know i-i've had a calling Teresa and I were in the primaries for a gosh, a couple years anyway back when we first moved out to this area and you know we did bunch of activities that way as well.

1:11:23 And so for us you know there's a lot of different types of Ways that we can socialize here because we have a group of people that that are here. I know David where you're going to church, you know, you guys have some activities and stuff there that you can associate with not just like a public on Sunday, but you're going to start doing some other things. And, and so that's another way that, you know, people in you talk and socialise their members of our church as well. You know, we have, Thursday evenings, we do what we call a missionary class and you know, we have young men's and women's and we have primary activities that happen once a week, you know? And then we have our regular Sunday meanings just like the LDS church do.

1:12:07 So there's a lot of commonality there between the Salt Lake LDS church, you know, and, and our own when it comes to meetings, one of the reasons why it was so easy for me to join Christchurch. The branch was Because of these common, you know, structures that we have and in our common beliefs, that's what made me go, you know. Okay. I think, you know, this is where I need to move to and transition in my faith, process and growing. And I've learned so much, you know, but one of the things I mentioned earlier was that, you know, I have a harder time when my family kind of ostracized me and the members here, Have really become my family.

1:12:56 You know, we socialize and do a lot of fun activities together and, you know, we have a really good time and I know that being gathered here. You know, we have somebody that we can count on but we can lean on, we can get some help. I can call Teresa and say, Hey, you know, my grandson has this rash and I have somebody to talk to about it, you know, I don't have to run off somewhere. And so, having just somebody to talk, Talk to friends to hang out with has been a lot of fun. That's awesome. Now, nobody mentioned any of the QT signs? I know Relief Society made her ton during the 90s, you know, the ones that would come with like, the, the scriptures attached to them and yeah, all that. So I want one, take that for granted, that's just an automatic.

1:13:42 That's just an automatic, right? I was, I was teasing Amber and Tanya here, a couple days ago, I want one that says this Sanders family, we put the fun in fundamentalism. Two other haven't haven't quite got to that point yet but awesome, thanks for sharing that. So as as Women Within fundamentalism, do you guys find yourselves having to kind of like push back against stereotypes a lot? Yes, yes, yes, yes, I'll continue on. You know there is a lot of stereotypical stuff, you know I mean we're not all wearing Prairie dresses, we're not all have the same hairdos and you know, one of the things that one of my cousin's said was that she she said, you know, I really couldn't live familism because I don't want my hair in braids all the time and I'm like braids aren't just for Lists, you know. And so, you know, it's just, it's funny with some of these things, you know, or like someone had, I've met somebody online and they had the one of Andreas groups that she manages on Facebook and they had sent me a message and and they said, you know, do you have to wear a dress all the time? And I said, there are some people that want to wear dresses all the time and then there are people like me who are more comfortable in jeans, you know, I mean, it's, it's your personal choice and you know, but there are a lot of those stereotypes. Words like they think that we're

1:15:12 probably all following, you know, someone similar to Warren Jeffs and all the women are oppressed and none of us have opinions. And you know, I told Craig Foster who's an author of a book on polygamy or a couple of them and and I told him, I said, you know, it's interesting how there was these stereotypes about fundamentalist women and we all are just, you know, being told what to do all the time and our husbands are in charge of us and we can't think for ourselves, and I said, my honestly, I haven't been to fundamentalist woman that fits that stereotypical mold yet. We all have our own brains will have our own opinions. A lot of us have very prominent careers and education even if we decide to stay home with our families, we have interests and you know a lot of times I mean in our family you know Dan gets left at home a lot so he does he's home there alone.

1:16:07 Now what's the you know dogs and everybody else is out doing. Being and having fun. So, you know, it's It's breaking down some of these when people meet us you know and there's rumors out where we live and people, you know it's funny nobody wants to like totally confront you and bring it up and ask you direct questions and probably because they don't want to hear the answer. Really. But you know, they will say things like oh yeah, you know, there was it was interesting because the flds actually has a couple companies and they got a contract in our town and they were redoing some Water pipes. And so, you know, there were some women here, that dress like them and stuff and you know, we were always really nice to them and help them out or talk to him and try to say hi when they were around.

1:16:55 But then after they all left, you know, after that, three months, when they were fixing, the Water Supplies rumors are going around and they've come up to me at work. Think I can have you seen any of those prayer dress women that walk around but night, you could only see him at night out in your neighborhood. I'm pretty sure that that's where they were from. It's like, you know, which we need to talk about some of these things because all of these fun rumors and these stereotypes aren't necessarily true and that you can't pick me out of the crowd, you know, on a regular day in Vegas or Reno or anywhere else that I might show up. And tell me that I'm a fundamentalist because of the way, my hair is done or the clothes that I wear or the speech that I use, you can't tell me any different from whether you're a Mormon in, Nailed it has Church from Salt Lake or if you're just a Christian and it's all about how we treat people. I think that's the best thing that's going to help people. Not be afraid to talk to us about the decisions that we made about the religion that we live.

1:17:59 It's in being kind and respectful and an honoring, that people have choices that they want to make in their life. And You know, I just I'm really grateful that I have this opportunity to share some of that, you know, here and to go online and talk to people and to bust some of these now because we're not who everybody thinks we are right then. Absolutely. He said you have anything you want. Yeah, absolutely. So actually what I joined Christchurch Probably the biggest stereotype at the time was, I was browbeaten.

1:18:41 You know, you know, of course, my husband had to browbeat me to join this religion, you know, and, you know, and I had to put a stop to that. I said no, actually. I didn't browbeat him, but he by farted browbeat me. I remember one Sunday, you know, we had been studying and studying and going to church every Sunday and one Sunday. He was taking a nap, and I just couldn't go to sleep. And so finally, I went down and I sat on the bed by him and kind of woke him up. And I said, I'm feeling like the fence sitter here. I'm feeling like we need to make a choice. You know, and I'm the one who pushed that choice. Not him, not him by any stretch of the imagination. Fast forward how many years later? And I'm going to apologize now because I might cry. I'm no longer married.

1:19:45 He's gone with what was my best friend? But they made that choice. And I chose not to go with them. Because I felt that the truth was here and this was where I needed to be and there, they weren't following truth. so by the stereotypes, That were given in the world. I wouldn't have even had that opportunity to make that choice to stay here. Right?

1:20:28 Right. But I did, and I'm here today and another stereotype is that you have to be married. I'm not married, still he left in 2016 was are divorced. I still to this day, I'm not married and, you know, I've spoken to the priesthood and and I told them I don't want to be bad by not getting married but I'm damaged and I feel like I need to give me some time before I do that. You know, and I am 100%. In the right and they said absolutely you need to fix yourself.

1:21:15 You know, so again, maybe not fix yourself, but just spend some time with you. You know what I mean? And I don't think six yourself, I mean, you know, yeah, you need to work on you work on you, right? Or and, but again, by the world standards, how many single women are you going to see in a fundamentalist group right now? And it's accepted and giving given responsibility and that can voice her own opinions and share her. Her her life. And I'm actually asked opinions from the members of the priesthood about many things, right? And I feel like I have an opinion and I feel like my opinion matters.

1:21:57 It's awesome. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that tree. So I know that was kind of tough Andrea. Do you want to take a stab at this before we move on to Charlotte and Melissa again? Sorry, I had to unmute just fine. You're just fine. Don't sweat that a bit. Yeah, that's technical difficulties. So I definitely agree with and I think that fundamentalist women are some of the most outspoken women that you can ever meet.

1:22:40 They have very strong opinions. They they are extremely firm in their thoughts, generally speaking. I think that they usually have a lot of strong opinions about a lot of topics and a lot of principles of the gospel. And I I think that people really do not understand. I think they don't understand how how much study and time women put into learning about the gospel.

1:23:37 And like, I mean, even before I was married, I was opinionated that I told my husband, I told my husband, I wouldn't marry him if he didn't, if he did, not live plural marriage and it wasn't because of my parents. That I have that. Opinion. It was because I knew that that was what I wanted and that what, that was what God wanted for me. And so, you know, I just feel like so many people really don't understand. How much, how much thought and time goes in into what we believe, right?

1:24:40 No, I think that's a very valid point. I I appreciate you sharing that that because especially the part about plural marriage, right? Because I think there's this misconception of, well, you're born into order, you convert to it and you just have to submit right. Kind of the way it was and and the way you put that I think was beautiful is that it was it was important to you that principle was important to you. As I'm sure all the principles of the restored gospel are so that. That was awesome. I appreciate that. Charlotte Melissa. Yeah, there's some stereotypes that I like to Buck against I guess.

1:25:23 One of them though, actually, this is funny because I was very slow to reject this stereotype. This is actually about men, not women but You guys all know the name, Joe darker. I bet he's a somewhat famous pulling this man, who has three wives, who lives in Salt, Lake City area. And when I first, I was, I was already pulling his and I heard about this guy who had three wives, and my gut reaction was what a creep to have three wives and then I had to like, why did I why was that my initial reaction to that like Don't know anything about him besides that. And what I, what I realize and actually wrote an essay about put on my blog is that it's actually the other way around. It's like 43 women who are independent educated smart, beautiful, and have choice in the matter, for three women, to each individually, choose him as a husband, of course, he's not going to be a creep.

1:26:30 They're not going to choose a creep for a man to sustain. Three marriages with women who have choice in the matter, which has all the fun, you know, the fun of this Mentalist women that I know then it actually it actually should be the other way around. I should hear that. And my initial reaction should be. Wow, he must be a really good husband. He must be a really good guy for that. Many women to want to marry him and to stay married. So so that is one stereotype that even I had to like fix in myself as like, you know, in like Some situations, there's no agency, I guess, but but for the people I hang out with it's just the other way around. And I used to be shy about being from this for that same reason because I thought when someone finds out that I'm a plural wife, they're going to think certain things about me. And there was actually, one instance, I remember the very first time I met, sorry, someone's knocking on the door and ready.

1:27:33 It's a little get that is but The first time I met someone and it had this experience all this tell you. So we went to an event at the. Do you guys call it what you guys call them church? That's like an Santaquin area or Elkridge or whatever. The Peterson group has a ranch. Yeah but sorry that like where the missionaries live. What's that building? Where the mission, where the? I don't know if they have a name for the missionaries and so there were a lot of like Peterson people and also Independence there and I introduced myself.

1:28:26 Off to women and pointed across the room and said, and that's my sister wife and she was an only wife and she said, you have a sister wife. Oh, that's wonderful. I wish I had a sister wife, I hope someday I can have a sister wife and I was like, oh yeah, out of that. And that was like a turning point for me to like go from being kind of shy and embarrassed about it being like and I have, this is what I like, I like I am mature enough person that I can maintain like relationship and share my husband's stuff. So that was like, stuff. I had to fix on my own in my own brain about it, but one of them is just that women like, oh, no, they definitely have choice for the most part and even in like the Warren Jeffs situations that's like, parents imposing things on their 12, year old girls. Like the priesthood probably doesn't have as much power as, as the parents, the parents do.

1:29:23 But I'm not going to really speak to that. I'm not in it. Ready on that. But like, Melissa and I definitely have choice in who were married to. And whether we stick around and and stuff, and like, you can Brigham Young would teach that like women. They can leave their marriages, anytime they want to, and that's like, puts a ton of pressure on the husband to give the women reasons to stay with them. There's no compulsion in it and in some cases, it's even like there's no guilt about it because It's like I could leave Joshua and I wouldn't even leave him alone. You know, he could just go right on with the wife that he would keep if I were to leave him and so, I don't know.

1:30:08 I feel like I used to think there there was no choice in and now I realize it's quite the other way around. There's like lots of choices in it for women and the other one that I wanted to speak to is The Stereotype that that we are uneducated. I love keeping like keeping my cards close to my chest and then like revealing at some point, the fact that Joshua and Melissa and I are all college-educated between the three of us. I think we have six degrees including two, graduate degrees. So so that's always fun because we surprised people that's like, not what they're expecting, you know. So we break the mold that way.

1:30:52 I guess, although we weren't raised fundamentalist and That's part of it. But yeah, I guess there are. I hope I answered the question about you did. Melissa, how about you? Yeah. So gosh, it's easy to fly under the radar but I had a Tipping Point with that and that's when I had a child and then surely out at, um, then I had another child and so they used to be that I could. Like at work say oh, these are my bonus kids and nobody ever had any questions. Except, unless I wanted to reveal that we were at, they just decided they assume their step because a lot of stuff found was referring to the children of the former wife as as bonus kids and so, but that kinda got fouled up, right?

1:31:40 So then I was like, ohh crowd. What do I, what do I say? And I've really come to this place of just like, and I think it's because we've lost so many friends and so much family that I really need to Have right away. Hey, are you a keeper or not? And so, I often will lead with were multiple wife family and there's that moment, like they're going to grind some gears with that because it's not, I'm not. I haven't said we're polygamists. You know. Etc, etc. But they've got, they kind of got to go a long way around the world with that. And as I know very quickly are they going to be somebody that's you know, supportive or not and they don't need to be supportive or not they just I just Need to know if I want to keep them around or not. And so I think that's part of it. I do find having been married before that in monogamy especially within the church.

1:32:36 It's like you stick with that marriage, no matter what you do, you're going to give you made these comments, you're going to stay no matter what, no matter what. And then at the same time with plural families, it seems like when I come to things in society, they're very very Eager to, like, kind of pick at things and be like, hey, you know, looking for reasons why I should leave or why, you know, this family should do you divide it up? And that's very strange to me especially since like I stayed in a first monogamous marriage far longer than I would counsel myself to stay you know, looking back.

1:33:20 Gosh. It's been what 23 years ago and so that's been very interesting. The Stereotype that I need to be rescued. That I'm brainwashed that I'm not very smart and that I'm weak, willed, I like that one a lot. Yeah, we will depart, hmm. I don't think people realize the burdens that plural husbands are under. I mean, my poor husband died. This pending blog post, I haven't published yet, but There was one weekend when I was doing shortly after, with my three-year-old and the poor man was replacing two dishwashers and to microwaves that weekend. And and it became quite the project because said, whoever had done the microwave before they done wiring weird and whole nine yards.

1:34:08 And so, and I just remember, feeling this immense amount of pity for this man, Heba struggling to install these appliances and I don't think people realize like they want to cast floral husbands as those creepy guys and they don't realize that it is immense amount of work and care to take care of strong-willed. Independent Women who at any point in time can get together and say we've decided against and so yeah, I think that there's not enough Really respect given to those men. They're just treated as as overlords and men who want to own women essentially.

1:35:03 Right. Couple things are what is you're right about. Brigham Young. I read an interesting book years and years and years ago before I was ever a fundamentalist about Brigham in his tenure as president of the LDS church and And typically if a woman came and told burgum, hey I need a divorce, this is not working out Brigham's, like done, you're good. If you were a dude and wouldn't ask for a divorce he's like suck it up buttercup, right? Go be a better husband. So yeah he was he was absolutely that way as I've heard all of you talk I mean I'm going to reveal just how simple and unsophisticated, I am here. There's two movies I watch once a month. Religiously one is Tombstone and the other is 300 about the Spartans.

1:35:54 And when, when the Persians send in the Emissary to talk to King Leonidas they say, we're going to ravage your land. We're going to to, you know, set fire to your crop. Number down your cities and we're going to subjugate your women and Leonidas goes. You don't clearly don't know our women, right? And, and as I've talked with with everybody here, that's definitely the sense is that when I get that stereotype thrown at me, which happens quite frequently, because of the podcast, right? I'm like, clearly, you've never met any of these women that these are not timid people. These are, these are strong independent people. So, Thanks for that.

1:36:40 I think the question too, is just, there's this idea that we're brainwashed and that stupid at cetera. And when they confronted with that idea, I really like the thing that I fight against the most is myself and saying something along the lines of oh yeah. Well fight me and so that's what I fight against is my own commentary. That's awesome. Alright, um, the other misconception I think is out there and I don't know if it's a misconception and and I really want to get everybody's opinion here on this.

1:37:22 Is that as Women and fundamentalism misogyny, has just run amok. Right. That every every guy in fundamentalist is a misogynist or he's overbearing or whatever has that been your case, have you found that as you've socialized with other fundamentalists or whatever that there's more misogyny there than say anywhere else? Is it a problem that's exacerbated within fundamentalism, how's that? Well, let me jump in real quick so I find it.

1:38:04 It's I find that it's Depends on who you're talking to what group, you know. And so, you know, I think there's people out there that mean well in their mind and they're trying to help women have more rights and to be able to express themselves and they start saying that, you know, we've been marginalized, especially those of us who are in alternate, Lifestyles meaning not one man, and one woman. And I, I mean, I haven't ran into a lot of it directed like at me personally, but I think that overall in the past there have been some people in fundamentalism where the women have had prejudice against them but if you look at it historically and I know that you like history stuff and so if you look at it historically, you know, has it changed in the last few years, I think. It has in my opinion I think it's gotten better but historically you know go back to Brigham Young's time we were just talking about him.

1:39:19 Historically women in the world were treated in one way, but yet the women that were in Utah were had more rights, they were more educated. They had more responsibilities within the community and they weren't looked down upon as women were back East or even in the south And I think over time some of these perceptions have changed towards women and have improved, but I also think that even current day and, you know, I hate to bring it up, you know, more spotlighting for the Browns. But, but they, you know, there's a lot of talk out there about what's happening to their family and I mean, I think it's a very sad situation for everyone in that family. IE what they're going through.

1:40:13 But a lot of people in our world today that are not fundamentalist or even Mormon have put a lot of prejudices against the women and you know we us women individually we choose what we can put up with or what we can't put up with you know, my daughter, my own daughter. I've raised several children but I only was able to birth one and she has told me off. Didn't, you know, Mom, I think, Dad abused. You and me and the kids and I don't think that was a good situation and I'm really glad that you left him. And I struggle though that you've went into fundamentalism, because traditionally there has been a lot of abuse brought out and pointed out in society with that. Can you fast-forward 20 years later? And the same daughter says, you know Mom the people that I've seen that you're around and fundamentalism don't seem to have the same prejudices against women and that You know, I really think that women have a voice and can accomplish great things in your circles and I feel bad that you get such bad press.

1:41:35 And so I like I said, I think it depends on where it's coming from, but I do think that there are some men in traditional typical society and I, yeah, I had a little toe and, you know, inflection there but I think there are some that still do have a lot of prejudice. Against women, I think that there's other women that have prejudice against women and it's something that we all have to kind of overcome. And I think that some groups of women, you know, are probably more marginalized and oppressed and have more prejudiced against them than other women do. But overall, I think that society as a whole as come a lot farther and that we're able to stand up and say, no, we have a voice and we can do Seems to be true. So did you want to touch on that at all? Oh yeah.

1:42:32 I mean I guess my biggest thing is let's see how to put this in words. So, as a group, you know, we have different segments out their fundamentalist segments out there. Obviously, there's Independence in their segments, but team seems to be that they function. The stereotypes are functioned. We're all one group and dependence Christchurch AUB. We're all one group. We're all just the fundamentalist group, that's the perception of the world for say, you know. But we're not, you know, and kind of like to me it's like you know giving the entire Catholic Church, a bad rap because of something of free stood You know, are there men out there who do things that they're not supposed to do?

1:43:27 Absolutely. Are there women out there who did things we're not supposed to do? Absolutely. But these are individual people. There's individual people and that's what I feel like the world needs to look at is the people as an individual and not as a group of, this is what they believe in. So this makes them this type of a person. Okay. No, I've not make sense. That's well put. Yep. Andrea. How about you? How do you find that in the circles you've been in whether the AUB or as an Indian as an independent? Excuse me, you've been forced to contend with more misogyny than like if you were just in the LDS church or or work or whatever.

1:44:13 No, I like I just Just feel like, actually fundamentalist women have. so much more voice than what, people give them credit for, and I think misogyny is everywhere. I don't think it's just a group or it's out there in the world, you know? But and like Yeah, I don't really like to bring it up the Browns but I feel like that there's some issues there, you know?

1:44:58 But I don't think that's typical. I think that's very, it's not it's not typical for most Fundamentalist. anywhere that the at least not in the crowds that I've seen and the circles I've been in, I've, I definitely feel like women are revered that there's a lot that women have to say and often what we say is just as important as anyone else, you know, it's it's not It's not less than because we're women. Right.

1:45:47 No, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. Um Melissa. Charlotte you guys want to take a stab at that too? You know, one of the nice things about being independent as I'm only accountable to my husband and God and there's no layer in there, trying to put me in a box. I also think about the fact that we live in a culture right now that everybody wants to be the victim. Hmm. And you can only be a victim if you're willing to participate and being victim. so I ran into this when I was married, my first husband that people like, oh, you're a victim of all this Abuse etc. Etc and I realized at one point wait I get up every day. I got up every day.

1:46:40 I volunteered for that. Okay, I could have not done that and and that's in varying degrees from my own behaviors. The behaviors from him that I would accept to the point of walking out the door like there's a lot of wide range of what we're willing to put up with. And I don't I mean if someone is truly in A victimized situation. As far as they're being abused, you always still have a choice to leave. and you always still have a choice to not play the game and so, I don't know. I just I really don't like that. We're in this Society of I want to play the victim card.

1:47:24 No, I agree with you. So I experienced I haven't I haven't seen any more misogyny and fundamentalism than in you know, the LDS world, I grew up in at all. In fact when I've read like talks from early Mormonism, I found quite the opposite. It least in the talks although I wasn't part of the culture but when I when I learned that, Utah was the first state in which women voted. I wasn't surprised by that because I I had learned about women being encouraged to go to medical school and things like that, under the care of the early leaders in Utah.

1:48:06 So, I haven't seen that historically. And I haven't experienced any of it either, but to be fair, I didn't really experience tons of misogyny before I was a fundamentalist, either. In fact, I think I'm the, I'm the recipient of, you know, the women who came before me and fought against that kind of thing because I should just Grateful to them, but I was in, I was interested in things that tended to be dominated by males a lot. So like my degrees are in mathematics, I played the trumpet in the band, so I was usually the only girl and in the section and stuff and it never it never really mattered. It was like, if I was good at it, I was good at it.

1:48:49 It didn't, it didn't matter that I was a girl. And my experience in fundamentalism is that men tend to really care. Wish their women and and treat them with with even more care and love. I mean, I've heard stories to the exception, but the men that I know our neighbors and and friends, they all really take care of their wives. And actually, I would say it's become the opposite problem where men aren't treated that well and I don't know what the history of that is. But I have witnessed women disrespecting their men speaking badly against men hating the things that men have as strengths. I've seen that way more than I've seen that. I've seen misogyny and and that makes me sad because we have four boys and we're going to, we're raising them in a world that does not value this.

1:49:52 The strengths that men bring to the table in that, that's unfortunate. But just two in one word no I haven't. This experience more misogyny, that's awesome. You know I think I think when we deal with stuff like misogyny or things like that, I think we have to look at it as a people problem and not a group specific problem, right? There's some people who are fantastic and then there's some that just flat-out suck, right? And and you, you're going to encounter them You're an independent, whether you're in a group, whether you're in the LDS church whether you are a fundamentalist, it's just what it is. And I don't think there's there's any way of getting around that it just kind of is and and I agree with Charlotte as well, there doesn't seem to be a lot of it floating around in history.

1:50:47 Now are there isolated instances? Oh I'm sure I'm sure because some people just suck right. But if Like my favorite is Martha. Hughes Cannon. Have you heard her story Martha Hughes Cannon is married to a 70 Apostle in the early days of Utah and she decides she wants to run for elected office and she wins but she beats her own husband to do it. She ran against her husband. And, and so I'm like, that's pretty bold, especially for the 1800's, right? I mean, that I can't imagine that happening. In Boston, or New York, or Philadelphia, or take any of those major metropolitan areas and Brigham did, send make sure that a lot of women have the opportunity to go back east and be become educated. And I think that that's something that doesn't get enough run.

1:51:44 Either from our history. Did anyone else want to add anything to that before I move on? I thought I saw Melissa kind of perk up there for a second. Yeah. Just I see I mean if you look to dovetail with Charlotte, if you look at any Facebook you know bead you're going to see a lot of male hatred and a lot of it is from wives, there's a lot of the little moments and I don't know, I'm free. I am frustrated to, I have two grown sons that are, you know, tall, white men, and so they run into quite a bit of Society for treatment true?

1:52:34 Yeah. No, definitely. I can. Yeah, I get that. Absolutely. All right. So for this next question, the LDS church right now is facing some pretty important questions concerning the role of women in the church. Now the two topics that come to mind immediately are women officiating or to some degree even holding the priesthood. And the second is a space for heavenly mother and I think I want to start there. Because as you look at what was just said, I believe. Was this last General Conference but don't quote me. It might be one later. There was an apostle that came out who said you know we know that there's a heavenly mother but we just don't know enough about her.

1:53:23 So we're best not to talk about within fundamentalism. Do you guys feel like that that you have some answers are about heavenly mother that Maybe LDS folks aren't blessed with. Anybody. I remember when I first learned that I'm God Doctrine, it was like years before I left the church and it was an idea that I liked especially that think about Eve. And I remember when I gave birth the second time feeling like somehow she was like, spiritually there with me, maybe this is something.

1:54:12 I shouldn't share too much, but I do remember having a good experience with that idea. My own beliefs have evolved since then and I'm not so sure that I espoused that but but it was, it was nice but I believe it. How about that? Okay. All right, good. Anybody else Andrea? I saw you pop up there for a second. Yeah, I'm here. I believe there has always been a and can you hear me? Because I'm not sure. Yeah, I can't hear ya. Yeah, I've had really spotty internet. You're so you're coming through.

1:54:55 Great. Okay. So there's always been an equal. How do I put this when we talked priest stood? There is equal. Priest. Stood between Male and female. And I mean, we are together a whole and we're taught, you know, we're taught that God is not alone.

1:55:36 I've always felt like it was God in his wives and of course within the temple, we have the officiator 's, which are women. And for the women, I mean a man can't do that for a woman. He can't that is specifically okay, let me maybe I'll say it this way. If there was a need for it because there was no one else maybe. But if you have the women who can do that, they, they are the ones who are supposed to do those things. and, I think there's always been. We talk about Kings and Priests queens and priestesses. It's It's all important, and it's all part of godhood. It's all part of.

1:56:40 You can't have one without the other Right? So we have a heavenly mother, we have a Heavenly Father we have we have the women have just as much ability to move forward as the men and not to said say that they should do it by themselves. They should do that together with their husbands but Women. I mean why do we have women anyway? You know, it were all part of male and female.

1:57:23 We have to have both of those in order to have us. and, so, I definitely feel like, a woman's role within the priesthood is very extremely important and some of the most important blessings I've ever ever had were at the hands of women and so I I definitely I definitely feel that that We have a very important part within, within the gospel with in godhood as it were. So there were, there were accounts that I had read a things called White binding blessings. If I'm not mistaken from like right before a woman was to give birth that were, it was done by relief societies. Is it?

1:58:32 Is that correct? A mother's blessing? Yeah, okay, yeah, sorry. Yeah. Sorry I was just reading, you know, in places and I I'm just getting back to action of useless information. You know, as far as that goes, I do well on Jeopardy. But nowhere else does it apply so I'll read something and then kind of forget about it but can you explain what that is? a mother's blessing is prior to giving birth and it is done at a half at the hands of women and It's a very special blessing for their birth of, for their time while they are in in their pregnant State and yeah, it's a, it's a very.

1:59:30 So I will, I will maybe share a little with you now, when I received one of those with my first when I was first pregnant and this was within you be The first time this happened, I had to be told about it by someone else. and when I was told about it, I sought it out and I went to a couple of well, one specific woman and we talked to her about it and she She agreed to give me that blessing and my husband asked.

2:00:21 Do I need to be there? Do I need to seal something? Do I need to do this or that? She said some men feel like they have to but it's not necessary. So, in other words this is totally under Let's say the priesthood of a woman that she's able to give this blessing. And one of the things that I had was my whole, my hips were completely out of place. And, you know, I was worried about it and I mentioned it to her and it was something that she added to at the end.

2:01:03 And I literally during that blessing felt my hips going to place. And then afterwards, after everything was done, I went home. My husband took me home. And I went to bed and I had probably the most healing sleep I had ever had in my life. Wow. And so. It's, you know, it's something, it is something and it's something that's important. And, you know, II just two, didn't diminish, the priesthood of women and They can't have it without the man, and a man can't have certain things without the women. It's delegated to them until they're certain things done at the hands of women.

2:02:04 Women are the key to that marriage, any man who says otherwise is wrong. Any woman who says, otherwise is wrong. Thanks for sharing that Andrew. That was awesome. And I'm going to throw you right on the spot right here and then I want to after an and treesa, just check in with Melissa to see if she had anything to offer. We're I didn't cut you off. Did I Andrea? Did you have any more you want to add? Go for it.

2:02:47 So, and I remember this was about a year before I headed out of the LDS church and I happen to be Listening to Lindsay Hansen, Sparks year of polygamy podcast. And if I'm not mistaken and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was you and Dan on the episode and there? No, no. Don't send German Schafer in myself. Okay. All right. Sorry, I see there. You corrected me. You were instructed at one time to to officiate for Dan when he was sick. Right. Did I share that on that podcast? Okay, I don't remember that but I was going to share it on this podcast, So Daniel their man about it and and we talked about this so I was just kind of mentioned a tree, so that was going to bring it up to earlier.

2:03:40 So when we were in Idaho, we had just started leaving the LDS church and had been baptized into this church and gosh it was probably within Three to four months of being baptized into Christ Church. And so you know I had heard some people talking about you know, mother's blessings. I've heard people talk about that, women can give blessings and that women hold, you know, a part of the priesthood. And this isn't something that we talk a lot about then in church, but we have talked about it and damn, was really sick.

2:04:22 We were the only members living in the state of Idaho. From Christchurch and he needed to he needed a blessing and we had called to see if that they somebody could give him a proxy blessing and it came back from the prophet at the time that said that, you know, am needs to give Dan this blessing. And so someone called us and said, you know, and you know, if Dan can, he can walk you through the semantics of it but you need to give Dan this blessing. Saying. And so we had a little discussion about that and with this gentleman on the phone, And then we hung up and damn look.

2:05:06 Smeagol this is a first and we, you know, went into our bedroom and, you know, he sat with desk area, office area and part of our bedroom and he sat down at the desk there at the chair. And he handed me his oil and he walked me through anointing him and the beginning mechanics of giving the blessing, you know, Because us women don't have an opportunity to memorize those things, right? The men do. And when I laid my hands on his head, There was a great power that I felt surging through my body and coming out my hands.

2:05:57 And I remember, I felt that way a few times in my life sometimes in the temple, but You know, never had given a blessing before, you know, I just, I spoke whatever words came into my mind at the time and gave him a blessing. And closed it up. And I remember, I just, I sat down on the floor and, you know, I released a lot of that emotion from it and I said, just this happened to you every time you give a blessing, you know, because part of me, I'm like gosh maybe I shouldn't ask you for blessings.

2:06:40 It takes so much energy to give these things, you know? And and part of me I was like, this is amazing. And the next morning Dan woke up and he was totally fine. We were going to take him to the ER if he wasn't but he was completely fine. And I want to add To something that the Andrea has said. And I know right now, my husband Dan and I are the temple present and matron for, for one of our temples in our church. And, you know, there are several women who have been called to be Veil workers or Temple workers in our Temple and like Teresa is one of them and When we are doing initiatory work and I'm using that term because it's an LDS church term fundamental was typically at least the ones I've spoken to call it Washington anointings but when we're doing that work you know we are there like Android said, it's the women giving it to women and we're giving those blessings where we were set apart and given priesthood authority to do. Do those Washings and anointings those are blessings that are put on a woman at that time that are very sacred and I'm not going to get into the wording of them or

2:08:11 anything because I hold them as sacred. But for those of you who have done initiatory work, that might be LDS listening or anybody else that have participated in this, you know, there is a part in there where it says you know, that this is being sealed on you and that comes straight from the priesthood itself and in, in that regard, women are holding the priesthood when they are doing that work and they are fulfilling that calm. For a mountain 11, other words to say there. But so in my mind, I think women do hold the priesthood and and in, you know, I had a ton of questions after I gave a damn that first that blessing that time that first time and, you know, I we in our church and Christ Church, we do something called dedications where we can, we dedicate a house and then the LDS church they do house dedications to, but it's not quite the same thing.

2:09:18 Great. And they do. Yeah, we do grave dedications and stuff like that as well. But, you know, there was a time when Dan was traveling, he was up in Canada with another young man and they were doing some missionary work in the winter and I couldn't get ahold of anybody else to dedicate. We, my mom and I were having some difficulties and so I called our prophet and I said, you know, can you dedicate and he goes You know why don't why don't you dedicate your house? And so then I like was like, okay where was the Outburst did down?

2:10:00 Write that down anywhere? And I kind of did it for my memory and and I dedicated our home and it was a very unique and special experience that I had with just my mom and I there at the time and so women can do some of these things whether you want to, you know, say that. Oh, it's Prayer of faith or a blessing of Faith or you want to say it really was to the priesthood. All I can do is tell you that. I know what I felt when I gave Dan that first blessing and I know what I feel in the temple when I'm giving women those blessings. And that isn't just saying a prayer like I do with my children or grandchildren at home, right? Teresa was there anything you wanted to add some mostly? What I was going to talk about was the temple because I mean I do support I work in the temple and obviously, I was given that blessing, you know, and it's like okay. And then, but I remember, you know, years ago, you know Learning.

2:11:04 Hey, you can give your child a blessing, you know, if your child is sick and nobody's there, you give your child a blessing and my baby girl was so sick. And my husband worked away from home and I put my hands on her. And in the Name of Christ, I gave her the blessing, you know, and like she said, whether you want to call it, Faith, you know, or you know, my husband had the priesthood. Or whatever you want to call it. I even if you're given a blessing from a member of the priesthood, a man in the priesthood you have to have faith for that blessing to come about. If you're given a blessing and you're thinking in your mind out of there's no way this is going to work well of course it's not going to work you know.

2:11:56 So even with the priesthood you have to have faith and to me I really think a lot of it comes down to Faith. You know. Okay, so I appreciate that. Melissa Oh boy. Okay, so let's unpack heavenly mother and that she's hidden. I think with good reason I think that the first thing you come up with when you start digging around for a female, Deity is Star, right?

2:12:37 And I've had some pretty dark stuff and it's really dark. and, I think there is a level of protection. I think they that if you are actively working in this life to prepare to meet God, that that's not in the singular. And Eliza R snow. We know wrote Oh My Father which includes that there's another there. I do think it's a matter of roles as far as the she's not front and center. And I do think I'm going to kick back to this misogyny thing, right?

2:13:20 So and I remember growing up in the church, how mad I was that the boys got to do all their Scout stuff and all this money and time and effort was spent on that. And watching that and being upset about that. And then also, I think we have definitions kind of messed up in the church as far as priesthood is seen as something to Lord over others. but if we look at the Life of Christ, who is the great high priest, His life is nothing but service and sacrifice for his fellow men. And so I think that It's really easy, especially within a sec to kind of have it upside down that the men are in charge. And I know that a lot of abuses In families. And with them churches, have come down because there's this idea of being subject to the priesthood. When really being a priest and a king is about service and love and and leading in that your behavior is such that others would want to emulate and not

2:14:51 being a leader in the oppression of others. And I think that this kind of thing has gone on insects for a long time and it's not exclusive to Mormonism. and I think that this Kickback, with feminism, Within the church and the demand, for some type of equity of priesthood is kind of misguided. I believe that. women come with the priesthood, but we don't have the Calling, as it were to.

2:15:32 Be part of building the kingdom. Like our role is different in building the kingdom in that we're raising the future. We're teaching the children to be able to perpetuate through the generations. Well, our men are actively quite literally building the kingdom. and so, I understand that there's a lot of anger about not being treated quote, fairly, you know, when the young women would do their one camping trip and you know, the young men have gone all over creation doing their thing and and its Financial to within various sex a lot more money historically in the youth has been put for the boys, but I think that You boys are more likely to leave religion. Boys are more likely to not become the men that they need to be.

2:16:35 And so I'm not thinking that it's terrible, that we make a larger investment financially etcetera, in the young men, Because women are more faithful and there are more of us. And that's one of the logistical reasons why the church is in the crisis that it's in with three unmarried women to every two unmarried men as far as young adults, there's a lot of really amazing women that are not going to get married. You know, it's to do before to do for that and maybe make a plan for that. I mean it's true.

2:17:17 You can't just open up the scriptures to I don't know, something like, I don't know 132 and just too bad. There wasn't something that rhymed with monogamy. That can Levy 8 that it's just horrible II. Feel bad. I went out and got a book, A book, treasuries knowledge, Treasures of knowledge. Volume 1. And there's a couple of interesting places in here where ruin, all red who we view as a prophet and start has a UB fundamentalist group also in some of the fundamentals do as well.

2:18:03 I believe are the independence do and so you know, just based off these two questions in 1974, he said brother--and these women are your glory, you have the power of the priesthood but the glory of God, is in your womenfolk and I I love that I also will admit that I have used that to try to get my way once or twice but that's a reminder honey but He's gonna listen to this. I know he is okay. And but here on in volume 1 page, 312 there was a question that was posed and ruin answered it.

2:18:51 And the question is hated Brigham, Young ever teach that you know, Adam had more than one wife that came down on this Earth and he gives quite a long little speech here. But he says that, you know, Adam did come down to this Earth with one of his wives and that he had others of his brother. And, you know, help. Him come and get, get the world ready for business when it came to Furnishing Tabernacles for his Spirit children born in heaven, he felt himself best qualified to do that work and then he goes on, he talks about you know how, you know, Adam means first man and evenings the first women woman, I mean, and he continues on and down at the bottom of that page. It talks about and it says the talmud does name to other wives. Of adammvb and Lilith.

2:19:40 And that these are named as for a wives of Adam and, you know, we can go on and we can say, okay, so we know Adam, Phoebe Lilith and then we also in the Mormon faith and I believe that the LDS church is where I heard this first. So you have to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm 20 years out of there but says or we were taught that Mary, the mother of Christ is Is one of Adam's wives as well. And so when people talk about heavenly mother, I want to say, I think that we need to respect her. I think that we need to reverence her. I think that You know, it doesn't matter which one of the wives of his were my heavenly mother, your heavenly mother, we need to reverence that person and the sacrifices that they made to get to the point where they're at.

2:20:35 And understand that. As we have trials in this life, they've been through something similar and, and they deserve some respect along that lines. And so keeping some of these things hidden, I can kind of understand Stand, why there's that, you know, sacred and secret thing. But we have four names that I just listed off and if we can study all that, we can about at least, you know, Eve and Mary. We can learn some characteristics about who are heavily mother or mothers are because while we're all individuals, we're all going to have the same beliefs and we've all been through stuff and I went through a time here not that long ago, where Why are sister wife decided?

2:21:27 She was going to move away for a while. She's now working on moving back in. And I'm glad for that just for the record, but when she left it was really, it was really hard on all of us, her, her children, you know, our husband myself, you know, and our community in some regards as well, but after about three months, you know, she, she started talking to me and again, and we were having some conversations and I left one. Those conversations. I was feeling quite perplexed and the next weekend. We had a big event out here and I had asked for a blessing and I said, I said Dan, you know, who should give me a blessing and Dan picked someone from our family? And in that blessing I was told your heavenly mother loves you. She sees what you're going through. She sees what your sister wife is going through and I will tell you it's not easy and that your heavenly mother. Has gone through very similar things. And so I have held onto that for many reasons, but it gave me a great deal of comfort to know that my heavenly mother has been in the same situation.

2:23:00 And has lived this kind of lifestyle and had frustrations like I'm having and she did it. So can I It's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Go ahead Teresa. But I miss on the heavenly mother and I know I missed some of what Andrea said, so I don't know if I'm going to repeat anything that she said, but in regards to the heavenly father, I I feel like she's being protected. 100%. I mean and if we think about the role of a husband, what's the, what's the one of the biggest roles as a husband here on Earth? Or the biggest roles as a husband, is to protect his wives and to protect his family?

2:23:50 I can imagine if well I could probably maybe somewhat imagine but maybe only because I have a good imagination. You know, if God did open up about our heavenly mother and if people in today's world took her name in vain like they do his name. I don't think that's going to go. Well, no, you know, I mean that, that's just how I feel. Think I think it's of I really think it's a. It is protection, right? And probably not just for her but you know, it's probably protecting us to right. Shirley did you have anything you wanted to add to that? I thought I saw.

2:24:34 You kind of perk up there here a few seconds ago. There were a couple things that came to mind. One of them is just that the Genesis talks about Adam being created in the image of God, but it says something along the lines of in the, what does it say in God's image, he made them male and female. And so there's the strong implication there. Like obviously, you can't, maybe it's not that obvious, but if you think about it you can't make a woman in the image of a man. Then she'd be a man. So for there to be a man and a woman created in the image of God.

2:25:17 It's better to strong implication there that there's there's a male and a female God and so that was just one thing. That once a awesome I want to touch on something Theresa said just a second ago about you know, protecting heavenly mother and maybe in some ways protecting us because we take our lord's name in vain. I shouldn't say we here. But you know, we as a society as people And I go back, I go back to something that happened to me as a Young Man where I was, I'll never forget this. I was probably seven years old and we were sitting. We have this kind of like breakfast bar in our house and for life of me, I don't know why. I was was Such a little jerk at that moment, but my mom had said something and my dad was sitting right next to me. And let me paint you the picture. My dad was a good six inches taller than I am and outweighed Me by probably 50 pounds.

2:26:20 I stand now, he was a big guy. Wisconsin raised, drinking, raw milk eaten beef. I mean, any was a diesel mechanic? And so, we had these fingers and they were huge and I remember I smart off to my mom and then things just went dark And I woke up and my dad said to me, he said something very, very direct. He said she's your mom, but she was my wife first and understand. Every time you do that, this is going to be the result. And so sometimes I'm like, maybe that's a blessing so we don't have to get the proverbial mechanic Knuckles, right? Across the jaw line, right? So that's, that's something I've thought about it times, so Andrea was there anything else you want to add?

2:27:06 There. Now, I've just been enjoying the conversation. That's all I just didn't want to be leaving you out. So, all right, we're nearing the end here, I promise. I appreciate you guys being so patient with me here as I've just asked endless questions. I got a question for those who joined fundamentalism from the outside converted to fundamentalism and then I got one last question for Andrea before we leave. So, as you convert it into fundamentalism, going in, knowing that the possibility of plural marriage was there was that something that was hard to wrestle with, and if so, how did you manage to kind of work, past it?

2:27:51 If it's not too personal. Okay. Oh, there we go. Are they going first? Who's going first? Okay, okay, okay. So again, interesting, I don't get me wrong scary to think about but I don't. I looked at individuals that I knew that were living it. And it was beautiful. It was beautiful there, their family was beautiful the way they work together was beautiful.

2:28:34 The way that all the moms claimed the babies and the children was beautiful and that's what I wanted to do. So, and I know, I mean, and that's what I saw. I mean, obviously I'm sure there were places out there were maybe that wasn't happening, but in where I saw that what was going on and so scary. Yes. Did I want to do it? Yes. And did I do it? Yes. So so was scary. But you saw good examples, and those good examples, kind of helped, you kind of move past the fear a little bitter, at least help you deal with that.

2:29:17 Is that a fair assessment? I don't know if I mean move past, but definitely gave me something to work with, Okay, I would go with that, you know? I mean unfortunate, unfortunately, for a lot of us, we live, we live, we live with that underlying fear of something, you know, but we definitely try. To work with that and not let it ruin. My biggest thing is not to let the fear rule me.you, you know, and so yeah. Okay, so I'll jump in since we're already a muted. Yeah. Um, you know, I've always known. I've had like, I said earlier a witness at a very young age that I would live this lifestyle. And I think the hardest part, to be honest, even with just myself is that I was an only child living in a huge family. I still got to go home and have my parents as my parents. and, for the first little bit, the hardest was sharing Dan then, after that, became the norm where he wasn't home every night, And I mentioned a little bit ago that she left when I moved away for a little bit.

2:30:36 I was mad that she left for many reasons, some very obvious, but here's one that maybe isn't obvious, he was home every night. I was not thrilled and I like, my husband. Why are you always here? Can you go study somewhere? Do something. And even like one of our grandsons, I don't like it. When Papa's here all the time because I can't have sleepovers when he's over here. I can have them when he's gone and so my grandson's and I have value in this that people don't see. But yes, it's funny but it's also kind of true because we kind of like having our own space and Like to do some of these.

2:31:30 Now you said was this hard to reconcile with when we first, you know, join fundamentalism. I mean, I think it's interesting because there's different types of people. There's people at least that come into our church, that either I want to live it and I want to live it today and sign me up for three, where he got them. So we just pick them out like a coat hanging in the closet kind of a thing and and then there's the others that are like, you know, I mean, I'm good with my wife and the family Family, I have and I want to be here and participate in. I want to learn. I want to grow and I want to learn about the other gospel topics and and I'm in no rush and I think those are the wiser ones. Honestly but you know I was willing if the Lord was willing and my heart and my soul were willing before We left Idaho.

2:32:27 I had a dream that there were these two dark Hood children and one was older than the other and it was a boy and a girl and they were going that they were our kids, okay? But I knew that they weren't my children. and our kids were, I mean, our youngest kids when we joined this fundamentalism and Christchurch were 16 at the time and so you know, having a dream of these little kids and we were in a house and and you went down into like a sunken living room and the little girl was watching TV and a little boy was sitting over doing something and I went in the room and was visiting with them and hanging out and we did some stuff and that was kind of in the dream.

2:33:19 And I remember the little girl said, hey, you know, where's where's mom and in the dream? The little boy said oh she's there, they're upstairs, you know, with with Dad. And you know, fast forward, I know who those two kids are right and and I know that Charlotte and Melissa met them and maybe even Andrea at least one of them. But if if I hadn't have accepted my sister wife, I wouldn't have them in my life and I didn't accept her because of those children. I accepted her because I wanted to be with her and I want her to be with us and them to be with us and that I knew it was, right?

2:34:12 I knew that in the pre-existence that she was there and that our family wasn't complete without her and so yeah, it's intimidating and yeah, there's time. As when jealousy Creeps in and you're overly emotional, it's the wrong time of the month and everything collides, at the same time and you have a mental breakdown. Sometimes, you know, even if it's just crying, in your pillow at night, you know, but then the next time, when he's over there on a night that he shouldn't be in, you had plans, it's like I forget all about that. Emotional breakdowns have it on Mike. Now I got to entertain him or deal with this or that or, you know. And so there's given taken all of this city.

2:34:55 Situation. But we all bring gifts to this and we all bring in an opportunity to learn and grow with each other. And I'm I'm probably going to take over for you David, because I'm going to say something here. I think I'm reassured something online about her experience with her sister wife and the beauty of it all that really kind of opened my eyes to it and I don't know if she wants to share any of her experiences or not in that regard, but you know, All of these things. Make the difficult things. Worth it. Yeah, and I appreciate all the women that are on this podcast because I've learned something from all of you and I'm very grateful for that and that we have become friends, even if at a distance but I am very grateful for The Sisterhood of having a sister wife and I've having you guys all as friends. Thanks Anne.

2:36:11 Andrea, I didn't ask the question and ask the question you you. So I she said you put something online recently. All right, able to hear me. I am yeah. Perfect. Okay. We just lost you up there. There you're back again. Okay. Did you hear me? I said, I I've put probably a lot of stuff online. and I'm I'm not sure which, which thing, but I put on life other than my experience as having a Sister wise, It was. Of course, the big learning experience as, as probably, all of, you know, she left quite a few years ago about 10 years ago and it's been an adjustment, our family. But I don't know.

2:37:34 She was my friend. She was my companion. Her husband was gone a lot on the road working and for me, having her, there was always a comfort We were best friends. Andrea. I'm so sorry. We kind of lost your audio again. Did you hear? Can you hear me now or not? Yep. Yep I can hear you now.

2:38:15 It's really bad weave. Can't hear you again. Yeah, I know. It's pretty gurgly. I'll tell you what. Let's give it a few minutes. Let's go to Charlotte and Melissa. And then we'll try again here before we leave, cuz I really want to get to what it is. You have to say. So your question was, was it hard to reconcile plural marriage? Okay, so in a word, yes, definitely. It was very challenging for me.

2:39:04 I had a couple of experiences when I was younger. Like, maybe around 17 years old. I had a boyfriend and my best friend didn't and we hung out all three together a lot. And I remember thinking one time, oh, I could see how this could be. No nice. Like I feel. I feel sad that she doesn't have a man in her life and I do I could could see how it could be something a woman would want. It's like share her man with the best and and then I had the same feeling when I was friends with Melissa, many years later when just hearing about the bad marriage, she was in and How she had like her.

2:39:53 I'm afraid of saying, like, too many personal details on Alyssa, but I'll just say that I remember, at least one time wishing that, I could like be that person for her. And but that was all kind of academic. And when it came right down to it, though, it was, it was really challenging for me. I didn't know anyone who was a polygamist except that my aunt, like 30 years before had wanted to live plural, marriage, bad enough that she had left her monogamous husband to go become a wife and that hadn't blasted long. And so that was like the only person that I knew, that was a polygamist.

2:40:41 And so, it wasn't like, I had these great examples to look at I guess. And if you'd like one really In the scriptures, there's actually a lot of polygamy in the scriptures but they're mostly that examples of Sister Wives not getting along and stuff. And so it's not like you're going to find many good Role Models there. So so yes, it was, it was difficult and I never had one of these section. 132 conversion moments like I've heard women tell those stories my Didn't has really been in the living of it because at the time that I knew that was what God wanted for me.

2:41:25 I just went forward with it without really having what I would say is a testimony of the principal. I just really want to do what God wanted, for me and Joshua had his own experience, Melissa had her own, we just went for it and it was it was really, really hard. Like I Just emotionally. This is, this is even before Joshua and I had talked about it, but I knew that it was what was in God's will and I was so it was on my mind so much and it was emotionally upsetting so much that I actually stopped eating without really noticing, and didn't realize it until my eight month old, baby who was exclusively breastfed was like, beginning to starve because my breast milk, I lost it and that was when I realized. Oh man, I got to get Get my life under control better here. But so there was there was some challenging things that that happened, but it was all like me. It wasn't actually the situation. It was just me, like, fixing the way I was thinking about things and So so I've come a really long way, so I guess that's that's something I want to make.

2:42:38 Sure it is clear. It wasn't like suddenly my life became terrible. You know, and my sister wife treated me poorly. None of that. It was all just up here and having to fix the way I looked at things with for like, I'd gone into this barrage expecting monogamy and, you know, going on, senior couple missions later in life and like dying side. By side in bed holding hands, kind of just like this. Simple life. And it was like that wasn't what's going to be happening here. Like you get to figure out how to share a man, you get to figure out how he could possibly love to women and it doesn't take away from you at all and all these things I've had and it was it was in the doing it that I've gained such a strong testimony of it.

2:43:25 I guess you could say and but I was still I would say week like, I was, I was firm that Melissa was meant to be in our family, but I still didn't love the idea of ever even entertaining the idea of having a third wife, because I didn't want to go through that. Again, that was so hard. Like, for one thing, we kept it, a secret that was challenging. There was just a lot of pieces. So after Joshua married to Melissa for about three and a half years, He came to me with the idea of asking, one of our friends to court him and I did not I couldn't say a single word to him.

2:44:13 I literally felt like I had been kicked in the stomach. I got up from where we were sitting and I went to the bathroom and I'm not kidding you, I had diarrhea like it was just like a physical response to what he said. Like, oh my gosh, we have to go through that again, and it took Took me half a day, maybe just like turmoil. I was like, he's going to have to medicate me. Like this is horrible. And and then I would say that was when God finally visited me and I had an experience and I was like, okay, actually I changed my mind.

2:44:53 I want this and, and we ask this woman. To court us and she turned us down but it was a really big learning experience for me because I like I thought okay here's what I'm going to do. I never want to be sidelined by that concept. Again I need to think about this every single day until it doesn't bother me anymore and so I did I started thinking about all the time and trying and I would like just really think like why does this bother me? Where is my fault? We've I really want to fix it and I would actually imagine the actual woman that Joshua would begin to love as well as Melissa and myself and and I was able to do a lot of growth just from the thinking about it and about a year after that, I actually started a Blog about polygamy because I wanted the growth that came from thinking about it and writing about it and talking about it.

2:45:57 So I don't have this blog called speaking of polygamy and it's only polygamy. Like there's tons of gospel topics. You can write about that are interesting and who used to not even be that interesting to me. But now it's like I it is something I want to look at and grow from as much as possible. And now I can honestly say that I'm really hopeful that someday we will be able to have a third wife. We did court someone about a year ago and and it was Wonderful, this is good times until the end, I thought it was good. I was like, wow, I have really come a long way and she was young, and energetic and beautiful's, that's what I'm saying was great. But it was like, I was like,

2:47:28 but one of the reasons I don't think everybody should do it is because not everybody is up for it. It's not that. So I guess that's that's what I mean. So I was actually talking to One of our friends about it and I said I don't think it should be taught that living. Plural marriage is some mandatory thing for exploitation. However, I do feel like plural. Marriage is a really wonderful opportunity to grow and become person and he as a monogamist LDS, man who believes in the principle of doesn't live it. He said, Don't you think that it would be hard to keep that Under Wraps? Like isn't that why people would want to live plural? Marriage is the growth.

2:48:14 So even if so I guess he was kind of feeling defensive of my criticism of the early Utah church leaders who spoke about plural marriage as if everybody needed to live it and it's more like no just if you want the growth and that's a good a good path to take. So that's awesome. Melissa. Yeah like shows Ted so we don't have any background mom referred to as creepy. See, I was monogamous through and through.

2:48:55 I mean we joke about this sometimes with their River very weird best friends before I joined the family. And there was a conversation that we had. We'd read this blog post about how pro-marriage never of thing. Well, that one section 132 was fraudulently. Yeah. And there's, you know, all the arguments about that. And so I remember have this distinct memory of standing in front of my refrigerator, you know, the show is my best friend at the time. And we literally like we literally high five that we would never have to live that because there's all fraudulent. And so I kind of feel like So I have this brooch or Witnesses system are Joshua Wright and be part of this family but we didn't get a manual. Like we didn't have friends that did it. We didn't know anybody like when Charlotte said that she should split jet, we didn't know anyone and so it really Was spiritual boot camp.

2:49:59 I mean and it was not like I just feel like I got recruited. It wasn't, I wouldn't even recruited. I got drafted. I mean it was just like ride this thing out and and I am one person that like, when I read 132, I didn't have this giant spiritual witness. But what I said to the Lord, which, you know, I'm kind of dumb sometimes. Maybe. But I said, you know, this says that more will be revealed and I was like, okay well, Got to the end of the scripture. So what's up here? Let's do this. And it was buckle up and it really was and so and we had some things that really stymied Us in the beginning as far as I told somebody in my family that I really trusted and I didn't think that three days later, I'd be getting a call from the Brazilian Rainforest from my brother who was on study abroad thing with a bunch of students. And he's Literally standing.

2:51:00 On the balcony, you know, railing to get service to talk to you about this because person, I called like, it went so far in my family that I didn't out myself. It was really early on. I had also been so negative about plural marriage to my kids that once. And I talked about this in Charlotte's blog on a post that I've been so negative about plural marriage even though, you know, as an audience member, I knew at some point and have to live it, but I've been sober. Vogel because of her some 40 families in school, they went to and so they just thought is nothing but negative and so then Mom does this crazy 180 of you know guess what? Mom's going to become a plural wife and it just it went bad fast and there were teenagers so and late teen. So it went real bad real fast and it was very very ugly and yeah, we didn't live together for For five years. Because and that was really hard. And I think that was hardest on Joshua, because he was back and forth.

2:52:08 We lived when he showed wasn't warm and I was in 2000 as a 70 minute drive between and we try to see each other but you know, I had these really really rough teenagers at that point and trying to raise them. Finish raising them out and try to keep them going on a good trajectory. So there really was no way to live together before 5 years until I was finished. Raising them. And then we moved in together and it's not really together because we have our own apartments in this in this house. So if it's together but it's not that we make time every night you know, for an hour, an hour and a half days some time with each other as a family.

2:52:53 So, but yeah, I don't Like, we didn't have good examples. We have bad examples, we just like yeah, yeah we did and I think I know that I felt some things up here along the way as far as just did we stay hidden for long enough for too long. I never should have told that person he'd been with the extracted promise I am going to hold them accountable for that one day. Yeah it's and it's not easy but some key things that I've begun to understand just about marriage To a husband is that there's a lot of talk about sharing a husband. You can't share, what you don't own. Like, I kind of live by that.

2:53:35 So I don't own my husband, okay? If anything from a Biblical standpoint, he owns me and the can go into all and people get really angry about that. And that's probably a whole other podcast Dave. But so I don't own my husband and I can't share what? I don't own, I like it. By definition, he is a husband and so the care that he takes care of me, has nothing to do with the care that he takes them another wife. Now, does he have less time? Is it logistically crazy sometimes? Absolutely, but that is not necessarily because he loves Charlotte. It's also because, you know, he's deeply invested in this family as a whole and in moving ourselves forward in what we're doing.

2:54:20 And so he does spend time on those things as well. Where In monogamy, you know, it wouldn't be so difficult to maintain to, you know, a white versus two women. So, you know, I'm sure before on the podcast that I live plural marriage once before, before I well I live plural marriage was in the LDS church but Yeah, I can relate to what you can say about just jumping in and not having a manual. I had a good friend who's not LDS, who asked me about it once. He says, what's that? Like?

2:55:01 And I said, well imagine you're an amateur boxer and then you get a shot to go up against Mike Tyson in his prime. That's what it's like. You're spitting out your mouthpiece a lot and your cut all the time. But every once in a while. Things start to click and when it's good. It's amazing. So I can I can totally sympathize with with how you how you felt there. We don't recommend it as far as like, if you are called to it. Awesome. You know, we will be here for you. Like, knock on our door, we'll have a chat, but if you're not called to this Just don't just do just save you, I'm serious.

2:55:45 Save yourself all of the because that's part of it is, if you're not called to it. You're not going to have the tenacity right on there. You're just not because you have to know that this this is the course, your life is going to take it and and you get to decide if you're going to go Kicking and Screaming or if you're going to suck it up and you take the hit absolutely. That's good stuff. All right, and Andrea, should we try this again? Here, we before Andrew goes coming trees and say, welcome quick thing. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's as quickly as I can be. Okay. So I actually so I actually lived 40 marriage back in 97. I believe it was that was the first time she left us. So but I was very emphatic after she left that I really Lee wanted to live it again and obviously, I didn't seek after anybody.

2:56:48 We didn't seek after anybody who would just if we want to live it and if God wants us to live it, then he'll it won't. It will happen. You know. So fast forward, 2002, I had a lot of problems. Having another baby. I ended up having a lot of medical problems and up having to have a hysterectomy. 2002 and soda. That was July 3rd 2002. I had a hysterectomy full hysterectomy, so, you know, no more babies. And if you think that God's not going to hold you to your word that you really want to live the principle 3 weeks later. After having a full hysterectomy, we got the call for us to live the principle.

2:57:39 And that was my best friend when we soon as my best friend time. But she became my best friend. And those children were my children, and that's how I felt. But if you it was rough, you know, think it wasn't rough after a full hysterectomy. Anybody who's either Bond through the trained or had his direct me, they understand emotions, you know. But If you want to live it and you are true to wanting to live at God's going to send it your way. So are you willing to accept it when it comes, no matter what, your circumstances at the time, right? Teresa you said something here and my, my wife, both of them have said, do not mention me on the podcast.

2:58:22 So like, I may need to pitch a tent in somebody's yard after this, but I'm going for it anyway. Okay. So my If Amber, my first wife, who's absolutely awesome. Just a rock star of an individual when When the plural marriage I had before I while I was still in the LDS church fell apart. I hadn't moved back up before I join. The LDS church, there was really only two things. I was really good at football and drinking and both I took too. Excessive, like, I feel like Jack Daniels. Sometimes owes me like, some of the dividend checks, because I know I helped.

2:59:05 Anyway. I hadn't drank for like, 15 years and my My second wife at the time, she left. And she was gone and boy, I was pissed at God. I was like, you got me into this, I prayed earnestly. You gave me an answer. This crap fell apart. You owe me some ID, some questions, some answers right now and Because I was so indignant. I am pissed off and hurt. I couldn't feel it. I couldn't feel the comfort that I thought I deserve. So I thought, well, let's see if I can get some comfort from Captain Morgan and I see, I went to town.

2:59:54 I did, I'm I'm ashamed of it but I did. And I did my best not to mourn in front of Amber. The loss of our sister wife because I didn't want her to I feel like she wasn't enough. I was an experience. I should have been more transparent. I wasn't I know better now but she came out in that moment and she just saw the bottle. She's like you okay. I'm like I'm good. I've had a baby. I was like, but I'm never doing this again, this is stupid. I'm going to forget everything. I learned. I'm going to go back to the LDS church. Screw this noise. And I remember much like, like you said, Teresa I remember my Amber just got down like I level although I'm sure my eyes were crossed by that point.

3:00:40 So that's pretty much done with that bottle. And she just kind of took her took her hands and just kind of held my head and she's like, you don't get it. We've been called to this and if it comes up again, we are going to do it. and, Yep, sometimes there's this idea that this is something that just the guy would want, but I can't stress enough. It's a calling, you have to feel this, right? As you progress, in the gospel, you have to feel it and you and I agree with with Melissa if you don't feel it if maybe tap the brakes just a little.

3:01:21 So all right, Charlotte, did you have anything you wanted to add? Yeah, for anyone. In listening to this, I want to say that. In your religious Journey. Make sure that you're not just focused on getting it right for yourself but that you are making as a primary goal to perpetuate, your religion to your children, teach it in a way that you were grandchildren. Will be taught it. You know, that's how big changes happen is that or even just good ideas, conserved is that they get passed on to the next Generation. So fantastic, Focus.

3:02:01 On the kids. Fantastic. and Teresa anything you guys want to add as we wrap up here, So, I just had a final thing that I just wanted to say that so plural marriage. It to me, it is a big part but it's still only a part of living fundamentalism, you know? So like sex, especially if you live in a group, you know, like like our group, we do a lot of things together, which we talked about, we work together. We and let me think about in a family, if you have more than one wife, each of those Wives has their own personality, each of those Wives has their own ideas, each of their, why is everybody? So as a bigger group, you're really dealing with the same thing on a bigger bigger sketch.

3:02:59 You just not living together, right? But I'm, we've been building a church building over here for quite a few years. We just keep adding to it but let me tell you, there's a lot of opinions, you know. So learning to work together with those opinions and learning to go with what is finally said. This is what we're going to do and and, and be happy with it, you know, I like in, you know, in my opinion, my experience in marriage and you know, we would come together as She wives and the husband, maybe a couple of the kids. If they're older talk about, maybe something that was going on and something that needed to be done. We all give our opinions.

3:03:50 But the final decision in that household was from the husband. So are we happy with, you know, we have to choose that to be happy with that and choose that that's the path that we wanted. We want to follow, you know? And so it's the same as in a group, you know, somebody's going to make the final decision. After all of these opinions of come out, somebody has to write there has to be a chief, right? That's the way I look at it. So anyway, I just, there were a couple different things I wanted to talk about. It was compassion, and mercy. And I think showing compassion and mercy in a marriage, whether it be monogamous polygamy, polygamy situation of plural, marriage situation.

3:04:41 Those are some, the two best things. I think you can give in a relationship is to have compassion and mercy for whether it be a sister wife, or your husband. And I think it's the same that holds true with friends and members of your group. And I think with all that I think you learned Work together a lot better. Thank you. And well I just want to kind of, you know, I'm going to say. I agree with Teresa and I agree with what Charlotte has said. But I think, you know, we need to think about our future as in society as a whole religiously and otherwise and who are our future and that is our children. And we need to create an environment that is safe loving and where they can learn.

3:05:31 And grow in knowledge, and become good, citizens of whatever Society they choose to be. And for those who are listening, you know, whatever your path is right now, could change, you know, something's going to trigger you to, to be called to do something. And what it does, it could be slapping high fives with your best friend saying you'll never have to live polygamy and then it will change. You could? Yes. Very much so very much so, but just just like, Charlotte Melissa, right? So but it could be that You know, you're you're not feeling called to do something right now, but in the future, you are and I think the best advice I can give you is what I applied and that is take it to God, you know, he is he's our father and he knows what's in our hearts, he knows what we agreed to do and he's going to help you along that path and it's never going to be easy. But It is something that you can do. If you get an answer that it's chores to do and don't don't just jump in because it's trendy or it looks cool or you're upset with whatever's going on in your, in your life or in your church or your community.

3:06:57 Pray it out seek an answer and make sure it's something that's good and safe for you and your family and your children, beautiful. Awesome. All right. I wanted to save this to the end. And that is there are there's two women on this podcast who were more instrumental than they'll know about keeping me doing this and early on. When I was like five six episodes in, I do what I always do which is start to think a little too much. I'm like, what the hell am I doing? And the first two that reached out to me, one was an hatch and she just gave me all these ideas of who I could have on the podcast. The other was Melissa and she just messaged me and she said, keep it going.

3:07:54 This is great. And you guys did more to help help me through that little bit of a dark time. I had when I first started this, and you'll ever know I would challenge anybody after this episode to stick to their stereotypes. I think, I think you ladies have absolutely shattered that and I just can't tell you how thankful I am to to be Associated and and know each one of you, I think you're strong independent women, and I'm so thankful for the opportunity. I've had to get to know you so with that everyone until next time, We'll talk to you later.

3:08:35 Bye. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.