Episode #59: The Temple Covenants, What Is The Differences Between The Original Ordinances & What is Practiced Today in LDS Temples & Why it Matters W/Dan Hatch

0:04 About a month ago. The LDS church announced that they had made sweeping changes to the temple ordinances and specifically the endowment with that in mind. I thought now would be a good time to have a conversation about the film. As I thought about how to do this without revealing too much. I got a little nervous. Well lucky for me, I know a temple. President on this episode, I have on Dan hatch, Dan is the temple president for the righteous branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in a temple where the original ordinances are still practiced to this day. So Dan is uniquely qualified to talk about the temple changes. We cover why the ordinance says shouldn't change. What covenants we make in the temple and what they mean?

0:46 And even get into certain covenants that used to be made in the LDS temple that are no longer given that. And more on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast, So I want to take just a few moments here and just say, thank you for listening. I can never tell you how much it means to me that you spend your time here with me. Now, on top of that. Last year, I received donations, that help me upgrade the audio equipment and software. This year, I want to do the same thing for video. Now, if you want to help out and make a donation, you can do that by going to Mormon Renegade.com, and making a donation. They're also check out the Mormon Renegade, supply store at Mormon, Renegade.com, and pick up some merch.

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3:44 I'm just kidding, it's just a library but I thought it sounded cool. I'm, I'm here with Dan hatch. How you doing man? I'm doing good good, how's life been treating you? Well, life is what life is Is, and it's good and bad and all of it, I take as best I can. Awesome. So I'm one thanks for talking with me about this because this is something that I have had multiple people reach out to me in about the last month and that is temples right? More specifically the endowment. Now, we're just about a month removed from the LDS church just making sweeping changes to the endowment and that's all Half of a hundred years worth of changes that we've had thus far.

4:32 So you talking to me about this is huge because this is going to answer a lot of people's questions about what used to be there. Let's not there now within the LDS endowment and then also why and I want to start here. Why is it important that those ordinances should have never have changed? Why is it important that the ordinance never change? Well, I believe in one place Joseph Smith, pointed it out. And he said in the principles of the Gospel never change ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world. In the priesthood for the Salvation of men are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles. Well, if we're going to be saved on the same principles, Then what my ancestors did in the temple, should be the same things that we're doing in the temple, not anything different. And if they change the wording so much and they change the actual covenants or change the process is it really the same ordinances at all and if not then what are we doing? Yeah I when I first discovered all the temple changes when I was first coming into The mentalism, gosh, Gabby 12 15 years ago.

5:58 Now, the thing I remember most is just how different it seemed right from what was original, right? You hear about the, the original quote uncut version of the endowment and it's a six-hour day, right? It's not, you know, pulling up jumping out, change in your whites and you're done in an hour and a half or two hours. This was an all day thing. And one of the things that got me is that they continue to Pare down, I was like, okay, so in doing this, we're not showing a lot of respect for what we're trying to do, right? We're trying to save our ancestors, right? We're trying to stand on Mount, Zion is saviors. And if we can't devote the better part of an afternoon or an evening to that, I mean, what's going on the other? I'll say is that.

6:55 Joseph Smith also said, where there's no change in ordinances, there's no change increased, correct? And by changing it, and you tell me if I'm right or wrong on this and changing the endowment, you're basically training God into a respecter of persons. Right? Absolutely. I I remember when, when I left the LDS church, I had to have kind of an exhale as you shouldn't. I had to have the opportunity to excited told them to go you know, talents and whatever. But I was like, you know, we'll go and wall will have a chat.

7:35 And this gentleman I talked to you he wasn't the state person but he was a member of the state presidency. I think first counselor and he was actually one of the higher-ups and Bonneville communication. So he had he had audience with the top 15. Pretty frequently. And he had told me I would because I asked him, I was like this is a big one for changing. This ordinance is huge and he said, well, here's the thing for the first time ever in the LDS church, we have more single people than married people. And I was like and and he's like well some of those covenants just don't really seem to fit with that and I said, so have we thought about maybe asking the question, why aren't people getting Married.

8:25 Like that would be the first thing, right? We don't change the endowment because no one can live law Chastity, right? If you can't stop screwing around on your wife. You don't come in right but yet we're ready to make all these concessions and it it made me stop and think if the covenants I took are different in the covenants. My daughter took Are we going to end up in the same place? Make sure wonder doesn't, it sure does it and it's spooky. So I think that pretty well answers. That question on, why it is those can't change. I remember the first day I went to the temple. This was in the Los Angeles Temple in 1975 was prior to going on my LDS mission and the temple president. There, he came into the room to talk to a few people. This was prior to going through and getting our Washings. Annoying as a down payment and he looked at me and he said, Dan, one thing I want you to remember is when you go to the temple, you should be trying to learn something new every time you attend the temple.

9:45 And I took that to heart. And for the longest time I was really working hard at trying to memorize, or learn something new and important than shortly after a certain amount of time I noticed Changes changes that were in the temple endowment things that were being taken away. And it kind of bothered me a little because I'm thinking, how can we learn something new everyday if they keep taking things away from it? And What importance did the things they used to do that, they're not doing now meant to anybody. And obviously meant something to God, especially if it was revealed to Joseph Smith and he's the head of this dispensation for us.

10:36 And Whose right? Is it to change it right? Especially after, after Joseph was adamant, do not change these things. These things were revealed from God and are not to be changed the closest thing and I'll play devil's advocate here. Right is people will say well gosh you know the the endowment wasn't complete when Joseph died. Well that's not true, that's the argument you get Joseph's charge to Brigham was not to change anything. Joseph's exact words were systematize an organized, right? Everything was there.

11:17 It just had to be put in its proper place and that's what Brigham did. And so when people say, well, gosh the endowment wasn't completely finished with Joseph, got it? I would say it wasn't in its proper order. Yeah. But all the principles were there. Absolutely. And and when you change that, Actually, I'm a guy who believes that the waters are always purest at their Source, right? So I always look back to Joseph and to Brigham to fact-check what we're doing today. And when I see when I see Temple changes being made in direct opposition to things, Joseph had said That I think that's cause for concern for a lot of red flags.

12:01 Go up when that happens. Yeah, at what point you think we get to wear? Because we're told told, you know, God's not going to be mocked. How do you think? Do you think the LDS church is cross that threshold? Yeah, they cross that threshold some time ago, I believe. And what happens is it's unfortunate and we just start whittling away one little piece at a time and they LDS church is conceded to the United States government. And a lot of things. As in, you know, if you don't change, this will take away your status as 501, c, 3 organization.

12:44 If you don't allow this to happen or that to happen, we're you know, we're going to take away that status and take away your money. I mean it even came down in the time of Brigham Young when the members had to denounce living Celestial plural, marriage as one of the ordinances that was required. And the United States government was basically saying, if you don't give that up, We're going to come over and take everything you have and that meant from everybody because everybody was supposed to be consecrated. So that was going to be taking all the houses, homes farm lands, Etc of everybody. So the concession was okay, people had to sign a document back then and say, well I'm I'm willing to give this up for that, you know, God doesn't work that way. He doesn't want.

13:41 The government in our business and the true government is God's government. And if he says something like Ali, that that should be the way it is, right? It's an interesting place that that I think the LDS church finds themselves in today, because I feel like they've kind of painted themselves in the corner, and I think it was probably all do to, to, you know, wanting to do the right thing or, you know, do the best they can. But sometimes when you lay with dogs, you get fleas, right? That was my grandmother's statement. And, and I worry that perhaps there's been a little too much bowing. The knee to the Federal government in some respects especially when it comes to things like, you know, your marital situation, whether you're married once or twice, whatever the case is and practicing plural marriage or when you start looking at Temple codes because again if God is no respecter of persons, which the scriptures clearly State time and again and we change the ordinances of exaltation. To fit a certain people in a certain time. We we've turned God into a respecter of persons or at least we've tried to turn God into a respecter of persons and in some ways I go back to what one Catholic Theologian says, what said, which was all heresy

15:14 begins with a preconceived with a incorrect notion of who God is and we're doing that by. By doing this game, we're, we're like, okay, you know what? We're not going to do that anymore. It's offending people's, modern-day sensibilities. And we're showing people short, that's the other thing, right? People are going through the LDS temple right now and they think they're getting what it takes to reach exaltation rotation, but if you listen to Joseph, that's not the case. No, it's not. And I guess if you're not willing to live all the laws, you don't get all the blessings, right?

16:00 I mean there was the scripture and DNC 130, 20 and 21. And I wish I had my scriptures would mean probably do. Oh, I got it. It's matter of fact, I could probably even bring it up on my phone and he thought of that. Well, you really want me to read small. Print don't, sorry. This was a favorite scripture to a lot of people. Holy mackerel, I like your scriptures, they're all painted. Yeah, yeah I know I mine tend to look like a coloring book. So in section 130 20 and 21 says there is a lie of revocable e decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world upon which all blessings are predicated and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

17:08 And if we're going to obey God's laws, he has certain covenants that he wants us to make. And if those covenants change and we're not living those covenants or doing them properly and we're not covered by that and we can't expect to even think that we're going to get the blessings because of it. Absolutely. That's like getting baptized and saying, well, that's all it needs. Needed. I'm baptized member of the church. That's all I need to do and I'll make exaltation. Well, no, there's more than baptism and then it's required that we take upon as men that we take upon ourselves. The priesthood and then we move forward from there and that we take out our endowments and those endowments are just kind of like something that's very special for us. That's what helps us and teaches us part of those endowments. Moments are what they even call the mysteries of godliness. Okay.

18:13 And so, those are the things that teach us how to get back to our father in Heaven. If we don't learn how to get back to our father in Heaven, I guess we can't get back to our father in Heaven. If it's not done properly, then why is he, would he accept it, right? Right, because, My understanding and correct me if I'm wrong part. Just part of those covenants are there to help us live a life in which It prepares us for his his glory. And if we're not living some of those covenants that he said, hey you want to get where I'm at, do these things and we'll make sure that you take a covenant in a special place. And by not doing that it would be like taking a medical exam. When really all you prepared to take is an exam and you know underwater basket weaving you're going to be woefully unprepared and so part of these part of these covenants are there so we can can start practicing to be as God is and we're shortchanging people.

19:26 If we tell them, it's one thing and it's not right. Well One of the scriptures and well there's actually a few scriptures which it talks about that we need to learn line upon line, precept upon precept here a little there, a little. Well the problem is is in the LDS church, it seems like and maybe I should and I'm not trying to bash them by any means. Sure. Is that they teach the same line upon the same line upon the same line, the same preset on the same precept upon the same preset. Here a little and there are no more or here a little and take a little away and take a little more away and Whittle it down until you get something.

20:13 So now that in the LDS church you're basically going through and and having a really wash down version of the endowment that you can learn by because the symbology that is there the things that we can learn why Participating in something of having the fullness and seeing all the tokens and signs and understanding really what the penalties are. Most people don't understanding the Robes of the Holy priesthood when we wear them. And the problem is, nobody's really taught about that either and we're not learning what we should be learning, right? No, you're right.

21:00 When and Earlier I I took out the full endowment while when I join Christchurch here and Dan Dan is then was then, and still is the temple president. And like just that little bit. You remember that conversation we had after the endowment was over and you explain to ton of that, you know, with the robe, the ceremonial clothing and everything else. It was all stuff that I had never heard but when you look at it you're like oh yeah that makes Makes sense. That's why that's there or that's why it's on this side or that side whatever. There was a reason behind them and that's not hot anymore. No.

21:44 And again, I don't want to bash on members of the church or the church even, but I just think a lot of them, just don't know any. No, they don't. And that was something that I realized I enjoyed going through the temple many times. when I was a member of the LDS church, and I kept always wondering what this meant or what that meant but they never provided an opportunity to ask questions, right? You know, and I couldn't understand why they wouldn't so because that's the place you're supposed to discuss. Well if people really understand going to the temple is like going to a college higher of higher education, I mean, where else do you?

22:36 You go, where you get to wear robes and a Mitre upon your head, you know, isn't that? Like the form of graduation, you're supposed to get up there but the whole point of the temple is to learn to graduate to the next step and to The Next Step. But what we're doing is we're just giving a people a taste of something, not the knowledge of it, right, big difference about when did Did the LDS church start making Temple changes? I mean, you know how soon was it after say, the Utah period starts at some of those changes start to happen. Well, I remembered going through and like I said in 1975 and that was one of the times that you know, they had certain ordinances that I thought were important to have and then probably one of the first changes that they made was changing the the temple garment itself now for years and this was an interesting story my my wife and she remembers and she shared it with me talking about her aunt's and The stuff told her that when you go through the temple, make sure that you can wear the long garments, the

24:07 temple garments and don't wear anything else, but that, because otherwise, you're not really having the real garment upon you. And back in those days, they were, you'd go through the temple and they put on long-sleeved long leg garments on you. And they tell you, you must wear these throughout your life. Well, afterwards, you get done with that. You get will go back and then they give you what they call Street garments, which are short, they're up to the knee. And now if you look at the way garments are set up now they're even above the knee and and they're short sleeved. And for women, some of them are practically sleeveless and then even for the military, they have the idea that all you need to do is just paste this marks on the inside of a t-shirt or something and that's okay. And that constitutes a garment And I'm like no no that's not right but back to that story with my wife, her aunt told her said, when you go through the temple, make sure you wear the original garment that they give you because anything else other than that, is not Incorrect.

25:17 And there have been other prophets of said. So now, when did that change that started changing during the time of Heber J, Grant. When he was the prophet, he decided he conceded to the I believe that wanted to wear them more modern styles of dress and and wear during the that time. Wait so Heber. J Grant changed some stuff. Oh yeah, I feel shocked. Really, no, I bet you don't know. I don't, I think anybody who's listening to this podcast understands a lot of stuff changed for the LDS church during grants Administration, and it's just Continued. So let's talk about that for a sec, right? Because that was some, I didn't discover till I was probably five years into studying fundamentalism. Is it wait a second?

26:11 There was a different garment and again, we get it to just kind of Suit worldly Fashions. Right? We did it too. So we didn't seem so weird. Right? And and news flash, when the Lord says that he wants a peculiar peculiar people, he serious. Right? He's not, he's not messing around and so we changed. We change step when we think we're doing people a service and we're doing them a disservice because in our changing the program that God lays out what We're trying to Short Circuit as planned, right? Whether well intended or not.

26:55 That's that's what we're doing. Let me push back on that just a little bit. Let me ask you this question because this is something I get from from some folks. When they talk about the Garment isn't the most important thing. Just the symbols on the Garmin does length, really matter? Yeah, link does matter because Like you were pointing out. We're supposed to be a peculiar people. Well, part of that peculiarly. I love that word. You'll your Garrity. Yeah, between two of us, we should be able to get it. Yeah, maybe is Modesty. And by wearing the original Temple, garment you are in a sense pushed to the point of view will be modest if you're wearing that garment. And what's happened is is Modesty is kind of gone out. Out the window.

27:48 And so, okay just because I draw stick figures on something, doesn't make it. What it's supposed to be is just Signs symbols emblems or whatever, put on a piece of fabric and we call it good. Right. Well let me put it on a handkerchief and I'll just carry that in my pocket. There's a big difference of having something that has all the emblems on it and having something has all the emblems that is correct and proper. And that's what we wear. I mean otherwise let's just carry a handkerchief with all this symbols on it and carry that in our pocket and call it good.

28:30 Right. Right. No you're 100% correct on that. When when people start trying to excuse certain things, I always get nervous, right? Whatever it is you know, like always that's not a big deal, we're okay. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, are we? Are we really? Because I know that That we short-circuit ourselves and getting to where we were. So it's in your grant that you start seeing the major Temple changes, right? So what goes by the wayside first. Well, one of the big changes, of course, was garment. He was shorten the sleeves so that women could sit there and wear shorter sleeves like three-quarter sleeves and that was kind of a style that started going and the skirt length for women and stuff was such that it was coming up to about the calves and so they Don't wear those Styles very easily wearing their garments. And so that was a concession that was being made by him at the time.

29:39 I find it interesting during his time, also that's when he started changing some of the ordinances we have and it wasn't until after he messed it up that, I believe it was David O McKay the corrected. It for the priesthood that when the priesthood is even to a man that you confer upon that man the priesthood and then you ordain him to the office and President Grant decided, well we're not going to confer the priesthood and we're just going to call him to the office of Do they really have the priesthood then? No. No they don't. And so then you have to start at really asking a question for how many years that went on before it was corrected and was it completely corrected all the way around and how many men were running around or even running around today without the improper priesthood without having it conferred upon them first and then ordaining them to the office.

30:41 And There again, that was something else. Grant did. Yeah. And what's interesting and I studied that and get the the priesthood conferral. I call it a crisis because what you have is you have Heber J Grant who by his own admission because he he addressed this, he said, look, I'm not a doctrinal scholar. I don't understand full ramifications for that. I believe it was Primrose. I could be wrong. It was one of those counselors. He said, when I have a doctrinal issues, Do I go to brother so-and-so and brother so-and-so said we need to stop giving you no conferring the priesthood and just ordained to an office and they did that from like 1921 to like 1957.

31:23 It was over 30 years, which is about and generation of activity and then they never go back and try to fix. And so what you have if you follow what the scripture, say you have a bunch of guys who never received the priesthood. Who's think they have it and they run around and think they're passing that along. And there's no way of knowing who really has priesthood who doesn't and the ramifications for dadar. Huge absolutely. However, even in the LDS church today they properly, they say they are conferring the priesthood and then ordering them to the office. However, then if you go into a ward or something, In from time to time, you'll see a man doing that and he'll forget, the forget to confer the priesthood and you just sit there and start scratching your head.

32:19 Why are they forgetting these things? Because they're not doing it enough to make sure that people know and understand, right? How important that really is. Well and I think even today. Now we the question has to be asked who who got the conferral of the priesthood back in 21? Who was alive to pass it on in 57, right? And how many people actually have had priesthood confirm? Because if you don't have the priesthood, you can't convert on somebody else. So you can not even if if you didn't have to receive it to begin with and you use the proper words that still doesn't make it right.

33:01 If you don't have the priesthood, you can't give it to some other man, right? That point, granted that does come from God. That should be Revelation given when we do give priesthood and confer the priesthood on one another male. So, yeah, that is something that I believe is absolutely important, right? So, as far as Temple covenants, what did he change? What did he change? Gosh. And not even Grant. Right? What right. What was the first thing that went away? So to speak.

33:41 Oh, let's see. Yeah, the Garment was greatly modified shortened to comply with the Fashions and standards set by the world. First is changed to a street garment and then became the sport garment worn by the LDS today, which I think, okay, fine. If you have really pay attention to them, those garments kept getting shorter and shorter. I remember when I was a member of the LDS church back in the 70s and I worked in the coal mines, and was able to find long sleeve or actually long sleeve and long-legged garments. and they were basically, your winter garments, right? And we were those when I was in the coal mines, and that was probably the closest thing to getting back to the original garment that you could it back at that time. But now, you can't even hardly find, and I don't even think you can find today.

34:49 Any long-legged garments, they stopped making those. And now, you know, you have to piece garments and you have everything else that's been lost as to what the Garment used to explain and tell you, yeah, yeah, I think, I think the first massive change, And I'm just going to list them out here. These okay, some of the ones that I if memory serves correctly. So you have the lecture at the veil go away, And we'll dive into that later. Then you had the penalties that went away.

35:32 Oh, well oath of Vengeance, excuse me. Oh, here's one for you today. Heber Grant also rewrites the women's oath of obedience that was something that was taken out. And that was in 1922 after 1921 when he decides. Well, I hear I'm going to sit there and and make the garments shorter and everything for the women. And then he writes It's also rewrite, see, oath of obedience and that's one of the major oath. Not saying that a woman should be completely subservient to her husband, she should be a helpmeet. She should be something much more than just obedient to her husband before before we go down that road without without going deep into verbiage, let's explain the the oath of obedience, okay?

36:33 It's my understanding that, it was a man promised to be obedient to God, correct? And then his wife then covenanted to follow his need, to be obedient to her husband's cancer corrector and correct. That is correct. Okay, I mean, she, if you follow how history went and if that woman is supposed to be his Queen and everything in a priestess, Is that kind of also implies that she is up there with him in rank and honor and glory and everything else, but you always followed lead to the king, so to speak.

37:17 But a man is a king was a vassal King. Just like, we are supposed to be vassal Kings unto our father in Heaven, he's a Souza rankine. And you notice how kingdoms and Kane ships worked even in the Book of Mormon and stuff, where you had the lamanites and they had lemonade Kings, and then usually the junior canes were their sons, you know, and had different tribes spread out, but they'd always have to come back. Now, for the women, as a queen or to her husband is to follow.

37:59 Is lead and righteousness and if he's not righteous, no woman should have to follow a man. Right there was a caveat placed on that absolutely. Just like there was when in spacing on the section I think it's 121 again. Where the Lord says you can only maintain the priesthood by on principles of long-suffering patience and love and anybody who tries to exercise the priesthood outside of those bounds will, Amen to his priesthood mean Meaning, he's got no power, he may have authority, but he's got no power and and it's kind of the same caveat there, right? Is that in that Covenant? It's pretty clear.

38:41 If your husband's being Wicked, you don't have to join in the wickedness with it, my right or wrong in that? No, no, you are absolutely correct in all of that. And I mean, it's interesting. We're supposed to be you're the Lord of our families and we're supposed to guide them and lead them just like a good righteous King as to lead his kingdom properly and righteously like mosiah was a good King and giving examples, you know to his people while you start with the example, to your wife in the example to your children and when you're not in your exercising, what's called priestcraft That means your lording over them to a point of putting the thumb on them and holding them back and holding them down and belittling or whatever.

39:39 That's incorrect. That's a bad principal, right? If you're doing that and that's called priestcraft. So how did they change that as you were about to get to them? I believe, I don't know. I really wasn't there when Grant rewrote the women's oath of obedience You them. So to be honest, that would only be speculation based off of some of the reading that I've done. And and some of the information that's come over the years. But I mean today, they don't make any promise to their husbands or anything.

40:20 It's just, oh, I'm here. I am. And I do the same thing that my husband does, right? And that went away, 2018 or 20:19 because I was still a member of the LDS church when that went away and that bugged me deeply not because I'm a chauvinist, not because I feel like I need to be in charge, but because this was the structure of the king of the kingdom of God, right? This was the structure upon which families were meant to operate and the basic unit of any society is that bad. And so if you're going to start redefining that, then you're going to redefine the Society of God solution, or at least you're going to try really hard. And that's what bugged me was this idea of. Okay, so now we're toying with God's government the way he governs every I believe one of the big things are changes even that I always thought was important and then taught us a great principle of file.

41:26 Your ship and a lot of LDS, people don't quite understand that, but in the temple, it gives you a good understanding and knowledge of how file leadership really works. Because if you really look at it, when you're talking about Elohim Jehovah and Michael, that was grandfather. God, that was father God, that was Sun God and they were all in the same line of priesthood. And as in Father you know grandfather to father to son passed down. Now if you noticed how when that goes on you always had that one thing go down. Do this, take care of that and then return and Report. So then they returned and report and how often do we do that? How often do we tell our children go out and mow the lawn and if you don't check on it it may not get done. However if your son came in and said hey Dad I just mowed the lawn he returned and report to you saying I got the job done. Yeah, and let's talk about that because I know some of that has 1/2 way out of the LDS ceremony that is so important because if we would just pattern our lives and our families, just just take that one little piece.

42:55 How many more teaching opportunities would you have? As a father to a son or to a dog or a mother to her daughter's or mothers two sons, right. Go do this. Come back. Let me know how it went right. Absolutely. Because then you have the option to be like, okay, how'd it go? And some would say well this this and this and this oh, I'll tell you why that didn't go so smoothly. Let's try it like this now and let me tell you why in this is based off of experience and it creates those teaching opportunities and Getting rid of that, you get rid of that pattern. People don't know about it. And you're missing out on opportunities to teach your children well and then we're missing out on opportunities to learn and to understand, that's one of those Concepts than now is going to be forever lost and forgotten, right? Because they'll go well, that just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

43:55 It doesn't really exactly. You know I haven't Lee father expect certain things from us but if we don't know what what He expects of us. How can we sit there and do anything properly for him? Right, right. No 100%. All right. So they changed. They change. The law will be Dean's. What was the next big change? well, when we were talking about obedience and stuff, and we're mention that about the wives but you had the law of obedience and sacrifice, which Those two are extremely important, you have to have both of them together. Those are things that we need to learn and I and I don't know. Exactly the wording that they use in the LDS temple, nowadays or not.

44:57 But To learn and understand how obedience and sacrifice works. And our lives is extremely important. So, obedience and sacrifice. You know, we learn that from the scriptures, you know, Adam did, what God asked him to do. And in other places, we learned that Adam did things, he didn't understand. What is that? That's obedience. Okay. Well sacrifice was giving up of the first fruits of the field and the firstlings of the flock and that was sacrifice and that was something important because when you sacrifice your lands or you're sacrificing a bowl, I mean these are major sacrifices, but like the scriptures say that.

45:52 Obedience is better than the sacrifices of lands. So what does that really mean? Be obedient and sacrifice both, but if you're not being obedient, it doesn't matter how much sacrificing you're doing right, you all? Okay. Well, here's a hundred bucks. There's a sacrifice. Was it a sacrifice for a millionaire? 100 bucks? A nothing. Right, I guess to, I guess we can look at that to in any more spiritual senses. Well, write, it would be like saying you have a contrite heart or broken heart and a contrite spirit, but yet you continue to do the same for app, right? And you're, you're just, are you really broken heart? You really have a contrite spirit. So so I would think you would be motivated to at least put forth some effort to try to fix it.

46:52 Well, you can always see that the true changes of a broken heart and a contrite spirit in people because they change. Yeah, they change for the better. They change for the good, you know, it's kind of like repenting or even the word repentance. I find interesting if people got rid of the idea of the stigma that's put behind repentance, because that means all you committed, grave sins, or this data together. Nothing, Necessarily we can repent of little things. However, all repentance really means is to return to God, right? You know, when we mess up, if we're repentant, that means we're returning back to God.

47:35 We're returning to what he wants us to be, and what we're supposed to be like him, right? The other thing. Is that because I don't want to seem too harsh are right. I don't want to seem more harsh than what my heavenly father is. Because certainly there's been times when I've had to overcome sin and error and all those things and I screwed up again. Right? I screwed up once or twice or whatever. I'm not saying that you get one shot at repentance and if you messed it up, then you're not truly repent. What I would say is that Not not taking it like understanding you've screwed up and you can tell someone who's truly sorry versus someone who's sorry that they got caught right. Actually and so oftentimes I think we get those two things conflated So that's obedience and sacrifice. It's basically saying I'm going to do, as you say now, it was my old understanding as well as that part of the sacrifice part of obedience and sacrifice was that the Lord was going to provide the ultimate sacrifice in some point, right? And so this idea of your going to be obedient you are going to mess up.

48:59 So we're going to have sacrifice. Christ's atonement. That was going to make up the difference. Is that a correct understanding of that? Yeah, that is correct. Okay? And they'ring lies, something that a lot of people miss and miss understand in the endowment when you realize that Elohim Jehovah and Michael were all Christ's for there's particular planets or worlds that they had and it's an order of Christ and you look at that in, it helps teach you something to get ready for.

49:41 And to prepare for not that we will ever become Christ ourselves. I'll never be perfect and, you know, eventually I'll move along and become more perfected, but doubtful that I'll ever be as great as my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And what people don't understand why, that's Jesus Christ, the son of Michael Christ, right? And then Jehovah, Was Jehovah Christ and Elohim just basically means the head of the Gods. And who was that? You know, I don't have all those answers yet, but we learn things line, upon line, precept, upon precept, and I felt blessed in becoming a member of the branch by learning so much more.

50:35 There's so much richness and depth into what the true. Temple ordinances, like, and what we learn. Now, like you said, I'm not going to divulge things that are sacred and secret. I mean, do we do things in there? Absolutely. And if those that ever become members of the branch and stuff, my wife, and I, we teach Temple classes that prepare you to go. And so you'll know what to expect and there is no surprises. And we allow people The opportunity to learn and to grow step by step. Well, you need to be prepared before you go to the temple.

51:18 How many times like when you went to the LDS temple, that was probably a little shock for you because they didn't give you any idea what they were going to do. Hi. Yeah. I could see how that could be for people. I was in auditing, right. In the sense that I asked enough probing questions while even coming into the LDS temple. But a lot of this, I got but if I don't win in cold, right? If I'd taken the class because I had to take the temple prep class, and they don't tell you about anything, and then all of a sudden you're in here and you're like, I just joined a cult. That's the first thing you would think, right? Yep. I just I just joined right without explanation behind some of this.

52:01 Oh, I could totally see how people get freaked out. And when it's so sad to me, when I hear people say, because that's a big thing out, Coming from kind of the post post Mormon crowd, is it? Oh, I had a horrible experience in the temple. Well, I get that. But let's, let's narrow down. Why it was horrible? Right? Would, it feel Cold T so to speak if you weren't prepared 100% 100%, but once you have those principles, explain to you. Then then things begin to make sense, right? And and things begin to click. So when I hear of someone who said, you know, my temple and there's a ton of them who say, you know, I went once and I was like, never again, never again.

52:54 It's sad because I'm like, they just weren't prepared. No, they weren't, right? And that's part of it. You have got to be prepared going into this, you have to have somebody who's wiser than you would. That moment to say, here's some of the things that you're going to, you know, you're going to learn about, right? And hey, don't be wigged out. What you're going to see ceremonial clothing and this is kind of Covenant making process, right? All that kind of gets it. Explain a little bit and it's not so spooky anymore, right? It's not so culty looking for lack of a better term. I'm not sure if cult, these are real-world word but we just made it one. So yeah, I remember when I went through and and I don't think I was as shocked as some people feel, they were shocked when they went through because I was there to actually learn because I'm thinking all of this means something, and what does it all mean?

53:58 And when you see the symbology of it, and now they're taking away all the symbology of it and Now, you don't get the whole the whole instruction. You don't get the whole feeling. You don't get the big picture. You don't see the full puzzle, you don't get it. All right, you just get a little fraction of it. You go. Okay. Well that's what I'm supposed to accept. That's what I'm supposed to learn from it. Well, yeah. And because and see this is where, where I feel like this conversation is sorely. We needed within Norms both from a fundamentalist perspective and an LDS perspective is because we've had to skirt this line of not revealing too much. but in process of doing that, we've left people to be susceptible to not know what, they don't know, right?

55:02 If you've never been to an original endowment, what was given from the Lord to Joseph, and you've never experienced that and you go to a LDS temple, or a temple, a place where the temple ordinances have been changed. And that's all you know, how would you know something? Yeah, you wouldn't. You wouldn't write. And so it's hard for me to find fault with folks who all the sudden have their minds blown because they're like, well, nobody told me about that, right? What what is that and is that really necessary? I don't blame them for having their minds, right?

55:43 I mean, I remember when I first read about the old endowment as like, oh, oh oh, that we were supposed to be doing that. Yeah, right and so it is a bit. It is a bit of a disadvantage because you can't reveal too much, but yet, if you're going to sound an alarm Bell, you have to raise enough questions to have people start looking back and go, oh, something's wrong here. So it's a fine line. We have to skirt. But so we have obedience and sacrifice. What comes next? What's the next Kevin Bacon? Gosh.

56:24 Hold on. No, you're good. You're good. I'm just going to make a note and I'll edit this out. Okay, you just find him. I'm dragging my blanks right here. Good, what's the Wi-Fi password Here, good question, call in. And I can probably find out that way I can jump on and you know what, why you're calling and I'm going to stop this Injustice. All right, so real quick. We've kind of covered the law of obedience and sacrificing the explain why that was important and how it's changed. I think it's worth mentioning that that hasn't changed in Christchurch. It's still the original Covenant that was given from Joseph and then organized by Brigham and it's carried forth to this time.

57:11 So we talked about how important it is a why it's there. Let's move on to the law of the Gospel. Can you explain just maybe, you know, again, without getting too sensitive or in places we should? What is the law of the Gospel exact? Well, I think there's there again, it's something that you have to take inside of you. As in a compilation of everything that consists of the Gospel, the law of the Gospel, the gospel of the Old Testament, Gospel of the New Testament, gospels, or the things that We have in the Doctrine and Covenants, pearl of great price, things like that, those are all laws and things that we learn about.

57:59 I mean, you learn in the from the Old Testament that there were certain laws and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But when you learn the higher laws, It is turning the other cheek, you know, if somebody wants something from me, give me your cloak as well. You, you learn to give and such. Now, those are parts of the Gospel. If you think about it, when Moses left with his people and stuff, And he tried and Moses tried to get the people to learn to talk to God. Well they didn't want to, so they were given a lesser law, right?

58:45 Well, lesser laws mean you get lesser blessings Lester. Things provided for you, you live the higher laws, you get the higher blessings and that's kind of really how it helps you to learn. Why the while we're going through the temple, I think of it is. The LDS church and we as the branch, we try to live all the laws, the laws of sacrifice, of course, and obedience, but the, the law of of consecration. But in the gospel, you also have in the Doctrine and Covenants section, 132, and lot of People just want to talk about that as well that just talks about marriage, it's little more than that.

59:42 Because if you read the preface to the whole thing, it tells you exactly what it's talking about, right? I'm plural marriage. But boy, that's a forbidden word, isn't it? I'm surprised. They haven't gotten that completely thrown it out of the Doctrine and Covenants, you know, it's funny. You should bring that up. Jacob, perjury and I just had an episode. I haven't published it yet, but But we talked about that, that if you go back and you look at historical records, when they were talking about the new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage, they weren't talking about just being seen, right? It was synonymous with this idea of plural marriage and and if that's the case, if that's how it was revealed and then you take covenants that you're going to adhere to the new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage. Oh yes.

1:00:33 Now you've taken a covenant. You don't even know what it means. Yeah, you don't know what you're promising to do. So I like what you said there about the law of the Gospel as well as that it's encompassing. Right. It's not because I think modern Christendom has this idea that well, that was the Old Testament. That was the Old Law, and there's nothing there that really applies to us. Now, And we just focus now just on the New Testament, right? And not that focusing on the New Testament is a bad thing. But if you're neglecting one whole part of the law, well, You're you're not understanding what it is God's trying to teach. And I remember the first time I remember hearing in the temple, about the law of the gospel.

1:01:22 And I remember I went home and I'm like, oh I guess start reading a lot more. I better start understanding this because I just made a covenant to that was going to live the gospel. And I think I think that that law within the And that Covenant within the temple is so unique. Because there I think the word is saying because I don't think he expects us to be perfectly burst in all the scriptures and all the laws before we go into the temple. So I think sometimes I feel like this one's unique because he's like, don't forget to read these scriptures, right? Or going to need them, right? And so it's almost one of those things. Like yes, we're making a covenant that we're going to live all this.

1:02:05 But with the understanding of you better go do some more reading than man or young woman because you got a lot more you need to understand. Absolutely love the gospel. Like I said it's all-encompassing if we don't have a good grasp of our understanding of it, you know, what are we really learning? What we learn the idea of how we have to repent, right? Right. Is that it? Or is there more? There's way more. Yeah. Well you got baptism and then it's sad but then there's also re-baptism because we all make mistakes. Yes don't we. And if you think you don't think again, right? Like at the moment you think you're not messing up, you have to re-evaluate because if you're done messing up, God's like come on home.

1:02:58 Yeah, come on home. You're good. Come on home, right? So you're still here. Still in this Mortal sphere. You got some stuff. You gotta learn. And that usually means repenting as well, let me ask you this and I'm going to ask this gentleman at this crosses, a line. You tell me. And then I'll make sure this gets edited out is not the law of the Gospel. One of those things where we say we won't do certain types of laughter. Yeah, that was recently gotten rid of two in this last batch template change. Seriously, they got rid of the part about lack now for those and I'm trying to be sensitive here and correct me if I'm wrong on the stand because you're a temple present you know a lot you know more about you probably forgotten more about this stuff than I'll ever learn. but, That Covenant doesn't say, you can't laugh.

1:03:56 No, it just says to avoid anything. That's somewhat poster asst. Maybe that's a good way of putting it. Well, I would or not even boast whistling on my own. I would think of making light of sacred things. Absolutely. I am, I off base for assuming that, that's what that part of. The Covenant means is don't take things that are sacred and turn them into a joke, right? Don't turn them into it. Saline. Is that an unfair or inaccurate? Way of looking at that? That would be a good way of looking at it, but you think about when you're talking about laughter, I think we can, we can giggle a little we can, we can smile. We can understand because I honestly believe that our father in Heaven, has a sense of humor.

1:04:46 I know he does. He want to know how I know. Yeah, he created me. No, no, the Platypus. The Platypus. Oops, there's an animal with a duck bill. Yep. Lays eggs has a part pouch like a marsupial, a beaver tail and a poisonous spur. I mean if that's not hilarious and I don't know what it is. I mean, it's almost like God basically making fun of anybody who's forever Evolution. I mean, I don't know how I don't even know how you explain that in but yeah. No I agree. He's got a sense. That. Yeah, he does, he does. I know he does and, and the best way to see some of his humor as if all you have to do, is look at people's lives and see the ironies that happen in their lives. Yeah, you know, the person says, oh, I would never do that. Be careful avoid that person because that's going to be the person that's going to end up doing it. You'd I've got one, I've got one. That's, that's right up.

1:05:44 Your alley did, and I apologize because I know you're originally from California. But around during the pandemic and Utah, we had a flood of Californians movement and like the roads were always horrible. Now there's always at least one accident and I'm like keep it I'm actually keeping track of like how many of them have California? License plates right there in the action. As I passed by and and I'm not saying Utah, drivers are great either. I'm not saying that one bit anyway. So I was constantly like California's here. Right, where did I marry my wife? You know, my wife the one. I just married. I imported her California.

1:06:27 So not just California. Los Angeles, right? So it was like, God was like, oh oh, you think watch this young man? Yeah, no kidding. So yeah, I don't know, I think that part about laughter is treats each sacred things. Don't don't make a punch line. Out of sacred things. Yeah and I would dare say it probably goes into to understanding there's a time where hey you're cutting it up with the fellas or whatever but then there's a time where you got to focus in, right. And if your if your disposition is to always be in that that mode of cracking a joke that doesn't lend itself to a lot of self-reflection. Is that a good way of looking at it? Yeah, I think so.

1:07:12 Another portion of that is we talked about the After, and then speaking evil of someone right think about that and who does it specifically point out in that? The Lord's anointed. Yeah. So if we're back biting or we're talking badly or poorly of somebody stop and think how do you know or you don't know if they are one of the Lord's anointed? Yes I think I think to some extent career and again I'm willing to be wrong here. I think we're all on. We did it some love right.

1:07:52 We all have some mission to well, absolutely, but it's just really think about it. Those that have gone through the temple and taken out their endowments. Isn't that what they are? Absolutely Joseph Smith. Says yeah so I mean we need to be careful of what we say about whom and whom we say it about etcetera. It's just okay. That means we need to take the time to reflect upon it and say, okay. Before I start talking bad about a person. Who are they really well? First off there, a son of God.

1:08:35 And that means they're my brother and my talking about about my brother you know now given the other end of that. Yeah. See he's my brother too but he is an anointed, he's a bad guy. He got kicked out, he'll never have that will never have that blessing stuff that comes with it and so, therefore Not that. I I don't spend a lot of time. Speaking evil of him, I don't need to everyone knows. He's a bad guy, right? You know, that's kind of clear and to the point but just because somebody messes up makes a mistake or does something wrong?

1:09:18 Doesn't mean that's a Perpetual? They're bad for those for all eternity. No. And it's not for us to sit there and judge, you know, and I think the other thing is, if we've been offended by somebody, we also need you Go into the New Testament and see where it says. You pull that guy off to the side private, right? You have a private conversation, samcro you screwed up and here's what I think and I would also also say your first reaction may not be the correct reaction, right? You may say something to the effect of this guy, really irritated me or whatever, maybe that wasn't his intent. So I asked a few questions first and then get to the bottom. Yeah, so I think I think that idea of evil speaking is interesting too because the temple in my understanding is the Gateway into almost a different organization, right?

1:10:11 You're starting to deal with things of the Kingdom, not just the church, and in the Kingdom were supposed to be United. And I think that, that part of, that Covenant in particular, is very much geared towards this idea of becoming United somehow being able to look over somebody else's faults and just be willing to to offer the same Grace that you would hope to get from somebody else or even our savior. So, awesome. Anything else you want to add on the wall of the Gospel there, Dan? No, I think that to me there again.

1:10:51 I'm not the man of all knowledge and knowing, but that is what I take from it. And as I keep going to the temple myself, I'll keep learning more and more and like, say what that also means is, we need to pick up the scriptures. Like you say, we To learn them. We need to have a good understanding or if you really want to have fun, go into the Proverbs and start reading Proverbs and stuff. And get to learn who we are. What we are, what we're made of what was really meant for us to be able to do what we're supposed to think how we're supposed to think about it.

1:11:36 So those are, those are some of the things that I think of as well. Yeah, I mean, you know, it teaches those things. Teach us a lot of things because there's so much wisdom in Proverbs, but so many different laws and examples and stuff that we're taught over time. It's almost like the Lord's. You that Covenant is saying, just promise me, you're going to keep lying, just promise me, you're going to go back here and keep figuring stuff out, keep working towards it and we'll work together on getting I'm getting you up where you need to be and and I find in a lot of gospel, just this beautiful. I think that law as with all of them but especially that one, you can really see a caring Heavenly Father trying to direct his children.

1:12:30 Back to him to learning, right? Continue to learn continue to grow continue under, try to understand what my will is for you, and they can be found in the scriptures, they can be found. In the words of prophets, they can be found through the spirit, but just keep learning, keep trying, keep learning. And so long as we do that, be haven't lost when we give up, we've lost. Yep. Yep. Exactly. And and I think that's something else. I want to say here to is it, I'll just speak for me, we're always still. We're always still going to make mistakes and mess up.

1:13:11 But that doesn't mean we quit trying, right? I look at it. This took me a while to wrap my head around. So I since the last time I was up here, I think I've dropped ten ten pounds also, but I still continue to screw up, right. Like, I'll be driving home and I call Amber or Tanya and I'm like, hey, what's for dinner? And they're like, oh, we have a salad and I'm like, that sounds fantastic now. My goal of trying to lose weight, that should be the thing I go for. But instead, I'm like look, there's a Carl's jr. Right there. And I know for a fact they have a famous star. That would be just fantastic right now. And then I'm like, see you screwed up, you're trying to eat better and you messed up and now you blown that. What's the point of going to the gym and my buddy who's helping me through this?

1:14:09 He's a Kinesiology Professor. Who are you staying? Yeah, he said, If you were trying to learn how to play the piano, if you hit a wrong note, which you stop, it's like, well, no, he's like, then why are you giving up going to the gym if you have one crappy me. And I think the same principle applies to the gospel just because you hit a wrong note. You don't stop trying to figure out how to play the piano. Well, if you hit a wrong note in the gospel, doesn't mean you just throw it all out and you go back and you continue to try to get better, you can sure. Try to practice. Now, obviously some sense are bigger than others and will require a little more correction, but the principle still applies. Stop.

1:14:56 Reboot. Reload and then go back after it again. But awesome. All right, so this one's pretty self-explanatory but I feel like not living. It definitely has its own set of consequences and that's the law of Chastity. That's the next Covenant. We take in the temple. and that Covenant says that you're not going to have any physical or I would even say emotional romantic connections with anybody outside of your husband or wife.

1:15:37 And when you're afraid, let me make sure I get this clear. I'm not saying that if you're two dudes married, but that's a good thing either. Yeah. Within the Realms of your heterosexual marriage, you will not venture outside those battles, right? Well, even the Lord told us and said that we're not even supposed to even lust after another woman, right? Well, doesn't mean I committed that sin. Yeah it does if you sat there and lusted after a woman and you played things out in here. Rain even tells you in the scriptures that you committed that sin in that regard. Well, granted, it's in degrees by varying degrees.

1:16:19 You didn't physically attack that woman, but you did in your brain, that wasn't right that has to be corrected. Well, the problem is, is if we do things like that in our brains, we start thinking about it and we start acting upon things. But you've got to change your whole mindset about that and stop lusting after stop coveting after or whatever. And to me, that's all part of the law of Chastity as well. Because if we correct, how we think, then we think a lot better. Well, yeah. And we don't do anything without really thinking about it first. Oh yeah, absolutely.

1:17:02 You you have to run through the scenario in your head to get to that point. And so if you're going through that scenario, understand, you're essentially stretching before the game, right? And you're setting yourself up to be in that horrible situation. I couldn't agree with you more. You got shut that down early, where I think what we can look around today and we can see the ramifications of what happens to a society, when you don't live, those principles. And I would say it's all the way up to death. Now, I know some people right there, just rolled their eyes, but how many How many pregnancies end up in abortion? Because the law of Chastity wasn't lived. Probably well there again Millions. Yeah.

1:18:00 Yeah. And aliens of abortions have happened over the years. In the other thing is that I would say this because of our powers of procreation. We're when when When we're living the law of Chastity as it is explained in the temple. We are engaged in helping, father's children, gayer, those are sacred things and the misuse of them has to be one of the most Blasphemous things.

1:18:41 We can do in the eyes of our father. Well just look at all the heartache and and problems that happens. It will we don't live the law of Chastity and stuff. We break our lives Hearts. We We mess up families. We destroy families by doing that at times because then trust is lost. And when trust is lost you know everything gets lost at that point. Yeah. So Like say without going in depth about, you know the law of Chastity is pretty simple, you know, don't think about it, don't do it. Yeah.

1:19:24 Real straightforward in real simple. This one's a big one down. This next one, the law of consecration Basically, it's saying we give it all. Sometimes I think we have a tendency of saying oh I died from a doctor, the gospel tomorrow. What would you look for it now? And that's where I think people can kind of get hung up this idea of sometimes. It's a Living Sacrifice, you have to be You have to be willing to forego your Comforts, maybe to be about your father's business? Well, the law of consecration to me, that's it's sad. But you know, in Brigham Young's time when he came to the Salt Lake Valley, he set up certain places such as order of Hill and they were living consecration there. They were doing the best they could with what they had. And it was to teach us how to live in a community and a society where we share and the hard thing for men is to share their stuff for a woman.

1:20:46 Hard thing for them to share is their husband But being consecrated means, being able to give of yourself constantly. So doesn't mean you have to give up everything you have because you're still a steward over things and we're given stewardship, so. But to be consecrated means when my wife and I got married and we had her mom, join the family. We ended up mixing three households worth of furniture. Now that's a lot of furniture. We had three couches, we had plenty of beds, we had plenty of dressers.

1:21:31 We had everything so much so that we're storing stuff out in the building and then I realized by coming here, I'm going. Okay, what can I do to help? So I put out the word. Is there anybody that needs beds is there? Anybody needs couches? There's there. Anybody in the needs things? Well, I don't need them anymore. I have plenty. So I give those up, give them to the Lord. Give them to my brothers and sisters that Need or have need of certain items. So I gave up quite a bit in learning part of that consecration that we're supposed to live.

1:22:18 Give up your time, your talents, your means, even your very life. That will, we hear that? But do we limit, do we understand it? Now, time in the LDS church is, okay, I give up a couple hours of Sunday. and, I don't need it. I think things have changed over the years it used to be home teaching as visiting teaching or for the mentoring. Yeah Ministry. Now let's change all the names as best we can and I'm like, okay. Well that's Fine, I guess, but I lost my train of thought.

1:23:00 No, no, you're good. You were saying that you know our time, yes, one of those things that we say so time like I said was was in that part for us here in the branch we sacrifice and give up like a Saturday are Saturday's, not just Sundays, but Saturdays. And we do work projects. They call him a work party. Wow. At first, I was sitting there going without a party like I've however, but what I did learn was, yeah, this is even the best party, because when you're working hand, in hand shoulder to shoulder, elbow to Elbow with another brother and building something that's helping building up the kingdom of God, helping somebody else out doing some things that would support them and help them. M, that's sacrificing your time, your talent. Well, are you a carpenter or are you a plumber? Or are you an electrician?

1:24:02 Well, there's talents there. For many things. My wife's Talent is in computer work and in such and so she is the temple matron. She does a lot of research and and taking care of the genealogy and stuff and the records and record keeping For the branch. As far as that goes, what we do in the temple. That's a form of Consecration and of time and of talent. And in our means well means is like the money that we have well here.

1:24:43 Not only do we pay tithing, but we also pay an order fee and that helps us to establish the order and help it along even better because those Those things like I just showed you not that long ago, showing the freeze dryers that we have what we're doing but who does that benefit? That benefits everybody out here that are working together to try to get that. So if somebody needs, you'll notice we have a pantry of food and things that were trying to rotate through and somebody needs something to eat. We give it to him. Yeah. And the cost is what we're basically.

1:25:27 There is no cost as far as monetary value but the cost is what are we able to provide from our hearts? And our means while means is those extra couches is extra beds. Those days I didn't need. Those are just given who donated to the Lord and then going to people that do need them. Absolutely. And and having been out here and seeing the work that gets done. It's, it's my mom, it's amazing. What do you think? What do you think stops us from being more? And when I say us, I mean not just members of the branch, not just LDS people, not just independent fundamentalist but Mormons across the Spectrum. What prevents us from being more consecrated people. What prevents us from being?

1:26:21 Our willingness to give because we become selfish we become. Well, these are my things. These are, this is my stuff. This is my time. When we realize know our time is God's time. God determines and decides how long we live on this Earth? And we've got to choose and figure out that we've got to make relationships count. We've got to make things work between us, our brothers, our sisters, Those are things that we're giving. What's the difference is? How much are we able to give and do for someone else? I remember there was a quote by Brigham Young where he was talking to the Saints about the sings. And he said, I fear for this people, when they become prosperous, we it's a real easy trapped fall into right where you're like, well I work for that. That's, that's mine.

1:27:32 I work for that. And I'll say this, there should probably be a little bit of that in there because it helps you value something right. But when that becomes your God, when that becomes the end-all be-all of why you're doing what you're doing, you got to stop and reassessed, right? Because your heart's not Where it should be it that way. I think Jesus was being very literal when he said seek first, the kingdom of God, and then all things will be added right? When when I think from a gospel perspective, when you get your mind right, gods were 12 and your heart, right? God is willing to bless you with more because he knows you're going. To be someone who can offer relief to others. And I think this law of consecration speaks also to, to this idea of your working for something bigger than yourself. That's something we haven't been really good at as a people instilling in our kids.

1:28:40 If you want to talk about why this upcoming generation seems to be so out of alignment, I think it's because we haven't given them anything bigger than themselves to work on. And I feel like this idea of consecration is a good way of getting someone into a worthy, cause the cause And if we can get our kids heads, kind of screwed on right? First, by turning on our own heads, right? You getting our hearts right with God, there's there's nothing stopping us from being able to build Zion to get that society that we wanted. All right?

1:29:28 Folks this is the part where if you're an LDS person and you want to know, maybe some of the big things that were have left, the LDS church, you're going to want to pay attention to these next few items because I think these are going to be ones that are going to be super interesting to you. And they're also super important. One of the things that in and I remember this from when Mitt Romney was running for president they said you know you receive your endowments and such as such and such date, right? Meaning a year did you take the penalties?

1:30:11 And for a lot of members, there is a moment of What what are the penalties? Can you give a very non-invasive answer to what the penalties are and why they were important? Well, the best way I can explain this without Giving away the farm so speak sure. Because I like you and like others, we've taken an oath in a promise. Not to divulge too many things. Well, the penalties See the Lord gives us something. In other words, there are always consequences for our actions. And every action has a result reaction every action. There's a either positive or negative negative reaction to it.

1:31:13 Well, the best way I can describe this is that in the time of Christ. When Judas betrayed his Lord and Savior on the earth, he realized the Steak, he made and he needed, he felt that he had to atone for that. And when he hung himself, The branch broke. He basically was showing forth a couple of the penalties that there were four that by hanging himself by the neck.

1:31:56 And when the Rope broke and he fell and basically his guts were splattered out, this is that in the scriptures and that's two of the Penalties that he paid just for betraying his Lord and savior in that regard. I mean I don't want can't really take the time to explain everything but I find it interesting. that God is a god of Justice. And he's a god of mercy and both have to be fulfilled.

1:32:40 And he allows us to learn what those things are. And if we do what we're supposed to do, he will be a god of Mercy to us, continually, when we don't justice will prevail in one way or another. Now, I believe God is a merciful god. He's a loving God. And I don't believe. For one minute to God is, God will punish somebody forever and ever and ever. He doesn't do that. We don't do that as parents to our children. We tell them stay out of the cookies or you can't watch TV during a certain time or clean up your room or you don't get something.

1:33:27 Well, if they don't clean up their room, then what happens, they don't get to go play with their friends. There's a consequence for that. That doesn't mean they're not going to not be able to play with their friends ever again. but, We're going to sit there and administer something to them so that they know and understand. Okay. You don't clean up here. Oh, you don't get, don't get to play. You don't get to watch TV. You can be on your Nintendo. You can't do this or can't do that. Well, whatever it is, we decide. But that doesn't last forever. And ever, believe it or not, that child grows up and he learns from his experiences. And if he understands that you're a loving father or mother, Other then he will want to do better. And then the next time you ask and say, well, it doesn't matter.

1:34:21 You're still going to have to clean up your room. You made the mess. Not me, it's not my job to pick up everything. I like all those signs that's that that you see in a lot of businesses and says, your mother doesn't work or your mother doesn't work here. Clean up after yourself. Those are some of the things I think about when I see him and I'm Thinking. Yep. Doesn't that apply to us as well? No, you're just fine. I think, I think with what the penalties. It's just that. And I think the word is also driving. Something home here, which is don't divulge this stuff outside the temple.

1:35:09 Yeah, do not talk about outside the temple. The reason that is is because if we divulge it outside the temple, we will ultimately We could, we could almost kind of damn somebody if they're not ready to receive those things that it's correct. And that's not a call that we in our run of the day lives. Well, I say we, I am I literally have my finger pointed at me. I am not in a position to make a worthiness call on somebody else. And so when I start or a maturity call on somebody else where I start saying yeah he's good to know these things that's for somebody who's been called and set apart to that position.

1:35:59 And so if we start revealing these things everywhere, Two other people who aren't prepared to hear them, we've kind of put them in a precarious spot. Yeah we do. We condemn them if they're not prepared or ready for that you probably heard the expression and that used in the military all the time. Loose lips sink ships. Yep. Okay. So who are we sinking? If we're divulging things that we shouldn't we're sinking those Is that like you say, are prepared for us? We're sinking ourselves because then all of a sudden, how can you be trusted if you can't keep that right? You know, sacred enough and you're thinking well sometimes sacred secret can be both right he can be both, we learn what reticence is.

1:36:55 Sometimes you just don't saying you don't explain things to certain people. You don't have to You know, the Lord didn't tell everybody everything he taught in Parables all the time, right? And Then his his disciples and such would come to a later and said, what did you mean when you said that? Well, they were prepared to listen to the answer but the general public wasn't right and so he wouldn't condemn the general public by giving them too, much information. No, he was cast in some ways you could say he was casting a net, see who would come ask that question afterwards and be like, okay, that dude's awake.

1:37:41 He was Listening. We can probably break this down a little bit more. Yeah. And I think those penalties are there. Look I'm not so naive as to say these two things. You will always have those penalties and knock it out on you by God. You know, sometimes you will write the case of Judas, he did, right? We, I've heard stories of other people who, who may be perished by some very suspicious-looking, you know, wounds from a car accident or something like that, where you're like, who was that, God and acting that right? I think the main thrust here is God saying don't don't put this out for their most people aren't ready to handle this. Understand there are important things. The other thing I would say is I think that the penalty served as an added, exclamation point on God's not going to be mocked. Understand, you're entering very significant covenants and how you live those covenants will determine your afterlife and you better take him serious.

1:39:05 And, and sometimes I feel like when we start talking about penalties, it's just that it's an exclamation point, understand you're on the hook. Now you got something to answer for Also, why I think you did a great job talking about secret and sacred. Sometimes people like to make that dichotomy, you know? Oh, no, it's not secret. It's same BS, right? Well, it's both right. Here's what I'll say. You'll never hear somebody as shouldn't say that. Most of the time you'll never hear anybody in Authority. In Mormonism anywhere whether you know, in the LDS church even or The branch or even Independence say you know, you can't really have that.

1:39:54 That's that's not from you. What they'll say is you want to know put in the work put in the work. Yes, it's secret right now. But with a little bit of time and effort and preparation, you can totally know what's in there, right? And so, it might be secret but secret with an invitation, right? We're not trying to be exclusion exclusive. We're just trying to make sure you're prepared to take those covenants on And so, yeah, I'm kind of a fan of secrecy when it comes to, that sort of stuff, it's for their benefit.

1:40:37 So here's another one that I think gets misunderstood a lot, and that's the oath of vengeance. What, what can you tell us? Exactly about what the oath of Vengeance has? Well, the oath of vengeance is something that was taken out, and I believe it was what was it? The read smoke hearings, that was full of the places in the web's, brought up See if I can even see where that here was headed somewhere. In here. We've the reach new trial for in the twenties, but I could be mistaken.

1:41:18 Let's see. Yeah, the okay. 1908 the oath of Vengeance was taken out of the endowment to satisfy the US government and order from Reed. Spoke to take his seat in the Senate. Are we noticing a pattern yet, right? It was taken out for the government there again the government and not God said to take it out, but the government wanted us to take it out what for so that we could sit there and live with the rest of the society. It's in the United States or the world, or whatever. We have to capitulate to what they want, not what God wants. And that's kind of a sad State of Affairs. But yeah.

1:42:18 It's why would they take that out? Now, I don't think there's anything wrong for asking for the Lord's will concerning something. I'm not taking vengeance upon someone. I'm asking the Lord to do. What he does as in, it's his call when we take the oath of Vengeance. Basically, what we're praying for is that people understand that we want God to hear us. And understand that what we're asking for is for his call. All concerning things, we don't believe in abortion. And how many millions of God's children are killed by abortion? And who's doing that.

1:43:18 Doctors primarily, right? So I really don't want them killing other people. I mean, this, we've got a messed-up Society. If all we're doing is killing our, our unborn children and we're not allowing them to have have that opportunity. So we're asking the Lord's Vengeance, not ours, his vengeance. To be on all those who shed innocent blood. And the way I've learned it. Another things is in, this is something and this is one that's taught to us that we're supposed to teach to our children and our children's children, to the third and fourth generations, and that's in the Scriptures, it talks about that. My wife found some examples of that before and I don't know, You got anything from her concerning that. Almost like she's saying to you too D and C, 98, go ahead. Okay, up here.

1:44:34 Sorry. No it's so needed. So okay, so d and c section 98 verses. 23 through 48. I'm just going to read that here real quick. Now, I speak unto you concerning your families. If men will spite you smite you or your family's Once and you bear it, patiently and revile not against them. Neither seek Vengeance. You shall be rewarded, but if you bear it, not patiently, it shall be accounted unto you as being meted out as a just measure unto you. And again, if your enemies shall Smite, you the second time and you revile not against it, not against your enemy and bear it patiently, your reward shall be a hundredfold.

1:45:22 And again, if he shall Smite, you a third time and he Barrett patiently, your reward shall be doubled until your For unto you for coal and these three testimony shall stand against your enemy. If he repent, not and shall not be blotted out. And now verily, I say unto you, that if the enemy shall Escape, excuse me. And now verily, I say unto you, if that enemy shall Escape, my Vengeance that he shall that. He be not brought into the Judgment before me, then you shall see to it that you warned him. In my name that he come no more upon you neither upon your family, even your children's children unto the third and fourth generation, there it is.

1:46:12 Again that third and fourth generation. And then if he shall come upon you, or your children, or your children's children, unto the third and fourth Generations, I have delivered thine. An enemy into thy hands. And then if that will spare him, thou shall be rewarded for thy righteousness. And also, by children for thy children's children unto the third and fourth generation. Nevertheless thine enemy is in thine hands, and if our reward is him accordingly to his words, Thou Art Justified. If he has sought thy wife, and thy life is endangered by him. Nine enemy is in thine eye, thine hands, and thou are Justified. This is the life I gave in to my servant Nephi and thy in thy father's Joseph and Jacob and Isaac and Abraham and all mine ancient prophets.

1:47:05 And again, it is the law that I gave unto my ancients. That they should not go out unto battle against Any Nation Kindred tongue or people save. I the Lord commanded them and if any Nation tongue or people shall Proclaim war against them, they shall be. They should first Just with a standard of Peace unto that people Nation or tongue and if that people did not accept the offering of Peace, neither the second nor the third time, they should bring these testimonies before the Lord then I the Lord would give unto them a commandment and justify them and going out to battle against that Nation tongue or people. And I've award would fight their battles and their children's battles.

1:47:53 And their children's Children's until the, they had to avenge themselves on all their enemies to the third and fourth generation behold. This is an ensample unto all people say. If the Lord your God for justification, before me and again, verily, I say unto you, if after dying enemy has come upon thee. The first time he repent and give unto thee praying without by 4. Of nostalgia shalt forgive him and thou shall hold it no more as a testimony against an enemy for so on into the second and third time and as often as I enemy repeat at the in trespass wherewith, he has trespassed against the Thou shalt forgive him until the seven Seventy Times Seven. And if you trespasses against and repent, Not For the First Time, nevertheless, Thou shalt forgive them. If he trespass against the second time and Repent, not nevertheless, Thou shalt forgive him and if he trespassed against the third time and repent, not Thou shalt, forgive him, but if he trespasses trespass against thee, the fourth time, Thou shalt not forgive him.

1:49:07 But Thou shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord, and they shall be blotted out until he repent, excuse me, not be blotted out until he repents and reward thee for fold in all things. Wherewith, he has trespassed against thee, and if you do this Thou shalt for, if he shall do this, Thou shalt forgive him with all thy heart. And if he do not this, I believe. Ward will avenge thee of thine enemy and hundredfold upon his children and upon his children's children of all them, that hate me unto the third and fourth generation, but if the children shall repent or the children's children and turn to the Lord, their God, and with all Their hearts.

1:49:53 And with all their might mind and strength and restore for full were all they trespassed wherewith. They have trespassed or where with their fathers have trespassed or their fathers fathers. Then thine indignation shall be turned away. And Vengeance shall no more come upon them. Saith the Lord thy God and their trespasses never be brought anymore as a testimony before the Lord against them. Amen. So there's a couple of things that really stick out there. One is that the Lord is telling you this stuff is going to carry down. It's not going to just be you, right? Because most likely, if you're if you're trying to hurt people, you're most likely passing that on here kids.

1:50:37 Well you do definitely through your DNA. Most people don't realize that. Yep, you know, the DNA that we get is coming from our mothers. Our fathers, our grandmother's, our grandfathers all the way up full line and those things are imprinted upon us whether we realize it or not. And like it says, if we sit there and break that cycle, then good on us. If they don't break the cycle, it's going to go. Go for Generation to generation. You know, this idea of some sort of memory being passed through genetics and DNA. That's got to be a real thing, right? Okay.

1:51:21 You can take a toddler and show them a snake and most of the time they record it. Why is that same with spires? Why is that? Well, that's because something's been passed down right? Which is don't touch that thing. And there was some trauma that was You know, happened. He knows how long ago that has somehow been transmitted down Through the Ages, right? And so this idea that, that gets passed down, is absolutely correct. The other thing that that is pointed out to me here is that the Lord sets the standard pretty clearly.

1:52:02 He says, you know, there's certain times you're Justified, but you get the feel in these scriptures, that that justification. Secondary to this idea of repent of offering forgiveness, right? It is secondary to this idea of forgiving and turning the other cheek. The other thing that's very abundant here is that the word makes clear. I can do. The whole Vengeance part of this and make it right. And I like what you said earlier about, we're not trying to be the avenging hand of God, right? I think that's where maybe things can get a little convoluted.

1:52:46 When we start saying, oh, I'm going to be God's avenging person, or whatever. Then you're on some real Shaky Ground. I don't see anything wrong in the oath of Vengeance asking for the blood of the Listen to be Avenged. I don't think, I mean, if you're thinking about it prophets the Saints, the innocent unborn, that's Cool. I'm concerned about because what have we lost? Well the innocent unborn, those children never have a chance at that point the Saints. Well Saints is implying. The idea that they are good righteous people and how bad is that if we constantly allow them to be suffering and then the third one of course is like the It's and stuff. I think this all start.

1:53:42 Well, this did this all started at the time of when Joseph Smith and all or not Oliver cowdery. But Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum for murder. And such and Brigham Young started, bringing that out. That's when the oath of Vengeance started coming out and he wanted that if you think about it who were the people That constantly worked against Joseph Smith. It was, it was people that didn't, like, the gospel that didn't, like, righteousness, that didn't, like, what was going on or happening, and it was even people within the church itself.

1:54:30 Those were the men, and that's a form of betrayal, come here lately, and If you're willing to sit there and betray God, what good? Are you? Alright, Ryan, are you really? And those were simple things then and I can understand why they were asking reached mood at the time because they were afraid that the Mormon church was going to rise up and, and go against the United States government. Well, heaven forbid. However, you did have other ER, States and places and Governor Boggs and stuff that went against the Latter-Day Saints.

1:55:14 We talk about reparations, maybe. All of us and this day it was my great-great great-great-grandfather that suffered. So I need to have reparations for me in this life, right? You know, I need a little Equity. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Here's the thing the Lord knows the best time. The best place and the best means to exact Vengeance and Justice. Absolutely. As men were flawed, we don't get to see the full picture. Like so anybody who's out there saying, you know, I can be the Lord's instrument in. This doesn't go scripture, say vengeance, is mine? Say yes.

1:56:04 Yeah, well that's just it. I'm not going to go take out Vin. Agents on somebody. Sometimes there's people like, I think I would like to. But right, nothing drastic, right? Right. And I think the other thing that's that's important, too, to realizing this and talk about a little bit, is this isn't talking? This isn't saying that if someone's in your house at 3:30 in the morning, you shouldn't defend yourself either, right? That you should just leave it in his hands. Oh no, the Lord's. Made it clear here. I think in DNC 90 E8. You know you're Justified you should probably do something right? And so I think we just have to apply common sense to this one.

1:56:47 Is if you think you're special enough to be the Lord's avenging, Angel? No, you're not. No, you're not. If you're thinking that you probably need to go back and check yourself a little bit, the Lord second. This idea of praying for God's justice. Yes, yes, we should all be praying for towards Justice. If we're on his side and then third, you are perfectly justified in protecting yourself, right? I think, I think those are some things that I think we can take away from that. Did I miss anything on that? Damn. No, I don't think so. I think we talked about as much as we could possibly tossing. We talked about yet. okay, and then finally and I saved this one for the last because to me This next part is probably the reason so many changes were made to the temple. And that is the lecture at the Veil. yeah, again without getting into the verbage without revealing anything that we shouldn't be revealing what is the lecture at the Veil The lecture at the veil is kind of to help us. Remember all the things we learned up to that point as far as the washing, the anointings

1:58:18 part of some of the endowment and how the mechanics of that worked. But it also taught us who our heavenly father is who our heavenly mother is and it taught us. That our heavenly father. Had more than one life and that they populated this Earth and that when he and if you can find this and Stephanie in different places, but that he was a Celestial being which meant he already lived on an earth and was resurrected.

1:58:58 And he was righteous and he came down here and it taught us what he did. He brought us our Spirits here, sounds awful. Lot like the atom God. Doctors will gosh. I think it does. Holy cow something really simple and easy to understand when you understand it correctly and no it wasn't any great big mystery because if and yes it is a mystery to know God. It's actually a bigger mystery when you don't know, because then you're struggling, you don't know who your father in Heaven is, you don't know who you're praying to.

1:59:42 You don't understand what he's already been through. When you understand that your heavenly father or Michael, or Adam, was a Christ, He knows what his son Jesus Christ, and that is part of it. You understand that? And that lecture, and those are important pieces of the puzzle to put together and there again you need to be sitting there listening to it. And the more you listen to it, the more you understand, the more you get a concept and realize, wow, this is deeper and you get so much more understanding out of it. There's one of the ways in which we can learn more each time, we go pay attention to it, and listen to it. And I mean, I've learned great mysteries from that lecture, which I didn't have in the LDS Church. you know, when the first time I went through the temple was, until I became a member of the branch and then listening to the lecturer at the veil and actually, giving the lecture, the veil myself, when function is the temple president, which helps me to understand if anything it's kind of like when you're teaching a subject or teaching, a class who gets the most out of it, the teacher every time because you got feel like, you know, your stuff you do, Do you have to?

2:01:15 And then to realize that when I was discovering certain Mysteries and things from all of that and I'm going, wow, this is this is fascinating and to be able to take it to my file leader and ask him and stuff. And my understanding this right, is this this is this what this really means? And and to get answers to your questions, those are the big things in life, getting answers to our questions. Ins. How many of us have questions that just go in answered, at times? Absolutely, I've Because it can still be found, I won't say where, but you can, as I read through early on, in my Journeys into fundamentalism is I read through the lecture at the veil.

2:02:14 It became abundantly clear that the whole endowment was centered around two things, the atom God doctor, And getting answers how to approach the Lord and know you will receive an answer. The atom God Doctrine is so interwoven into the original doubt endowment that you can't separate and there were times as I was in the LDS church and I was a weekly Temple attending. I went once a week for 15 years, right, except for when I lived in Boise for a little while, they do the shut down for two weeks on the temple. I couldn't go in there.

2:03:02 It Don't like Utah. Where there is another one just down the road, right? Other than that, once a week for 15 years, And no matter how hard I tried, it felt like it was kind of disjointed or didn't flow quite right. And it wasn't until I discovered the atom God doctor, and then the mother churches. Adamance adamant. That it got rid of the out of God Doctrine. That is starting to make sense. Because there are still things in the LDS endowment at least there was until this last group of changes because I don't go now so I don't know what's What's missing? But there's once you become familiar with the atom God doctor, it's all over the place and little Snippets here and here.

2:03:56 And when you understand the atom God Doctrine, you realize oh oh they had to take this part out so that they could get rid of the atom God doctor. And I go back to that Catholic Theologian, who said every heresy begins with a misconception of who God is and so, They'll continue to make changes to the endowment I think until they got rid of all the vestiges of Adam God. And this lecture at the veil was a huge part of that teaching the atom God Doctrine in the temple, in the, one of the most secret spots, you could be in, they just got rid of it, they tried to get rid of it.

2:04:43 But in so doing they continue to just make the endowment, feel less, and less cohesive. And I think, I think that that might be the The granddaddy of them all as far as changes to the temple endowment because now you got changing everything. It's like saying you're trying to restore a 1969. Mustang. And in your restoring, it it turns into a 1973 Pinto, right? Yeah, it's not the same, no it's not. There's no restoration there.

2:05:23 Hey, but they're both for its they're both for its I mean you got that going for you, right? So awesome. Dan is there anything? We didn't we didn't cover that. You want to get covered? Not that I can think of maybe if I think about it later. Yeah, let me know why I can add stuff here and there. Yeah but dude this was awesome. Let's do it again. Let's do that. Thank you Dave, do it again. Bye everybody.

2:06:14 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.