Episode #57: Fighting Back Against Revisionist History Concerning Joseph Smith & Plural Marriage W/Jacob Vidrine

0:04 If you remember a few weeks back, I had Kimberly Watson Smith on the podcast and we had an epic conversation where she laid out the scriptures improved that Celestial plural. Marriage is divine principle on this episode of the podcast. I have Jacob between back on to talk about the history of plural. Marriage in the restoration, Joseph's Revelation on the subject and plural marriage in the Utah period Jacob sources and presentation of that history are absolutely Rock Solid. Solid and put to shame the revisionist history. That seems to be peddled today in some parts of Mormonism and that's next on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast. So I want to take just a few moments here and just say, thank you for listening.

0:48 I can never tell you how much it means to me that you spend your time here with me. Now, on top of that. Last year, I received donations, that help me upgrade the audio equipment and software. This year, I want to do the same thing for video. Now, if you want to help out and make a donation, you can do that by going to Mormon Renegade.com, and making a donation. They're also check out the Mormon Renegade, supply store at Mormon, Renegade.com, and pick up some merch. Now, if you can't, Any of those I completely understand. It's not like it's been a banner year necessarily for our finances so maybe just keep the podcast in your prayers. Finally, as I've started to do more video, there's a YouTube channel up for the podcast but just between you and me. Yeah, I'm gonna be there very long. So I have a feeling I might get kicked off. So to stay one step ahead of that, I've made a channel on Rumble, so head on over to rumble, look up the Mormon Renegade podcast Channel there and Crush that like And subscribe button.

1:43 Thank you. I've been very careful on this podcast to only advertise for items that I feel will add value and purpose in your life. That said, I've discovered a book that I really believe should be in every Mormons Library. The book is called beneath sheep's clothing. In this book, the author Julie be Ling breaks down the Communist infiltration into our schools institutions and perhaps even most distressing our Church's, the book backs up its claims with well cited sources. So you can go do the research yourself, this book will allow you to see the Communist tactics and gives you the tools on how to combat this Insidious movement. In America, Julie is right now, trying to raise money to make the book into a documentary and I can't recommend donating to this cause strongly enough. So head over to Mormon Renegade.com and you can find the link to buy the book and donate to the documentary in this episode page or scroll down to the very bottom of the landing page at Mormon, Renegade.com, to find a link to buy the book.

2:54 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Well Jacob, it's been a minute, man. Have you been in good? Dave, how are you doing? Good man. Well, how's life been treating you? Well, yep. Just, you know, excited for spring time, hopefully will come soon and said this back and forth. One day, Sunday Monday, winter here in Utah. I know you've probably been dealing with that. Also, dude, I'll tell you what, if anybody wants an example of what bipolar looks like, they just need to look at our weather, some days. It's you know you swear.

3:39 It's almost summer and then the next day it dropped 18 inches of snow. So it's nuts. But dude, I'm glad you're here. I mean, We've talked when we talked about doing this episode. I just find it so important today with all the pushback against plural marriage and I feel like the more voices I get out there with with people who can make a doctrinally based argument about it is just huge, so I appreciate you coming on. Well, I'm glad to be on and this is, you know, this is honestly when it comes to the gospel, there are so many other topics that I personally think I'm way more important to talk about. But for example, when I first got into fundamentalism and Mormon history, one of my teachers who taught me Mormon history, basically was handing a bunch of material and he kind of skipped over the plural marriage material saying, if you're like me, you know, that battle has already Already been fought and won and I was like, yeah.

4:45 And he's like, he probably be a lot more interested in Priest it and I'm like yep that's true. But unfortunately as we've seen the last several years, the battle over plural. Marriage has almost rebooted where it's almost an exact repeat of what was going on in the 1860s, 1870s and 1880s. So that means the battles back to the issue and it's an important issue to have a conversation about Out, you know, I think you bring up a good point there that I think points to a larger principle, I don't think we can ever look at these principles and just assume that the battles won.

5:26 Right. I think sometimes we get this feeling of complacency like well the history is obvious, right? Or doctrine is obvious and as soon as we neglect that part of the fortification so to speak to go build up against something else, the adversary will try to get in on the other side. That's so true. And for me what I think is, you know, why this is so important not just for you and I who are fundamentalist and believe that people can be Authorized by God to practice it today. But also for mainstream LDS members, this is an important issue because it is ultimately an attack on the entire Temple doctrine, that Joseph Smith restored as the Pinnacle of the last several years of his life.

6:11 If you attack plural marriage, you throw into question, everything else about the temple from the endowment to Eternal Marriage to baptism for the dead. And you can see that in the lot of this growing plugin. Me skeptic or polygamy denial movement where it's just an all-out attack on the temple and those last doctrines that Jones Smith established during the last several years of his life. Yeah, yeah. And I want to get this Well, you know what? I'm going to sit on it. I'm going to sit on it and see how I feel towards the end but a lot. Okay, why don't we go ahead and get started here then? So do not start off by, you know, for me, the big question for for me when I talk to a lot of people who understand come from the political Kalinga me skeptic cap it comes down to, is it moral more rather than was it historical, they're framing their historical perspective, based off of, they really like Joseph.

7:12 That they want to believe in Joseph Smith, that they can't accept Joseph Smith as a polygamist because of their moral problems. You know, they find it morally questionable at best. And so for me, that's why it's always important to start off with the doctor and even though both the doctrine and the history are important subjects. I hope we can find talk about tonight. So, absolutely. Yeah. Let's I think that's a good place. Let's establish it doctrinally that I think is the Most important question and then let's move on to historical the the historicity part of things because I think that's almost as important as much as doctrinally.

7:59 So to start off with that, just a quote by Brigham Young on this. He said because some people that are the most common misconceptions that it's about lust, or it's about carnal desires, but Brigham Young is very explicit on So many times where he said, quote God never introduced the patriarchal order of marriage with a view to please man, and his carnal desires nor to punish females for anything, which they had done, but he introduced it for the express purpose of raising up to his name. A royal priesthood, A peculiar people. Do we not see the benefits of it? Yes, we have lived long enough to realize its advantages. He said, suppose I had the privilege of only one wife. I should have only three sons for those are all that my first wife bore. Whereas now I am buried five sons and I have 13 In living is obvious that I could not have been blessed with such a family. If I had been restricted to one wife but by the introduction of the slaw, I can be the instrument of preparing Tabernacles for those Spirits which come into this dispensation and so really, it's not about lust, it's a you know, it's a matter of principle, not a matter of passion is what the early brother and said over and over again. And they actually were against men who got into plural marriage because of this luster.

9:12 And for example or person hide made a comment that I just love that. He says I've heard it remark sometimes by individuals who are not identified or connected with our church that they could only be convinced polygamy was true. They would become Mormons at once. Well, I say, do you believe in the Bible? Certainly I do. So The Enquirer did Father. Abraham, the ancient Patriarchs live in this relation and practice this Doctrine, you just made you say that they did it. Then if they practice it, you're bound to be a Mormon upon. Your own hypothesis and reason. But gentlemen, if I knew this was the all convincing argument that it was the principal Doctrine alone influence you to become a Mormon. I should at once, they never let me baptize, such a person, let me never be the agent to bring such a person into the church or kingdom of God. God despises every character who had entered this church for no other purpose than to criminally and dull JH. His National is natural propensities so you know, so they said it's about raising up a royal priesthood and it's about really some people say it's about quantity, but I think the priesthood rather than be born into broken families or, you know, other an ideal situations. That's the idea of bringing those giving Spirits an opportunity to be born into families with the gospel, is one of the big reasons for her

10:44 plural, marriage. So when we, when we get into the scriptures, that that's what it comes down to when it comes down to the doctrine ality of it, as they mentioned, it's clearly in the Bible. It's clearly what? The Patriarchs practice the Is whether God approved it or not. Is is the million dollar question and the Skeptics always point to Jacob, chapter 2 to say that. God doesn't approve of it. They think it's most correct book. Jacob. Chapter 2. But for me and my, my personal Quest, For Truth does Jesus Christ ever either in his mortal Ministry, in the New Testament, in any of the gospels or in 3rd Nephi to the Nephites giving them his Is the fullness of those gospel? Does Christ ever say a word against plural, marriage and from your, from your Recollections is. Yeah, I think he says, he does nothing. Say if he saw his father, do it.

11:42 But he never says that. So for example, plural marriages is permitted in the Old Testament and Xs where even says you know that God permits you know that you can take another wife as long as you do not neglect your first wife in you know her necessities of life or her marital rights. Right is what right? Exodus 21 verse 10. Says if I'm remembering the first right off the top of my head but this Christ ever say that Moses got it wrong. Wrong and permitting plural, marriage? You know, is so so I say for me, when I look at the gospel and needs to be centered on what Jesus Christ taught.

12:24 First and foremost, you know, other prophets are great. Jacob in the Book of Mormon is a prop true Prophet. I think he's absolutely an inspired Prophet, but my rock needs to be on Jesus Christ and what he talked. And the only thing he really is really warns people about It's like, you know, divorce and he says, Moses permitted because of the hardness of your hearts. It's not an ideal thing. It's, you know, God joined them together and let no man. Divide them asunder, you know. Correct. That's that's something in every single gospel. And so I would think that if Christ had a problem with the Old Testament Practice of plural marriage and said, I think he would have been explicit and you know that's something you find throughout the New Testament. Is that while the Old Testament is very clearly permits it, where there's Patriarchs priests prophets Kings, who are polygamous, you the New Testament never condemns them for doing that.

13:20 And so, the question becomes, how do we fit it with Jacob chapter 2? And the real question you should be asking when you're look at Jacob, chapter 2 is Jacob chapter 2 revealing a higher law or a lower law when you're looking at the condemnation of polygamy and Jacob chapter 2 and in my opinion, when you look at the context, who is he speaking? Is he speaking to a bunch of righteous people know? He's speaking to people and condemning them for their wickedness. And so I think it's much more clear from the context of Jacob chapter 2 that he's giving them a lower law. He's saying, you guys because of your wickedness are not to live plural, marriage.

14:02 This is how I interpret that. And so for me personally when people Center their entire outlook on plural marriage from a Jacob chapter two perspectives, - it's almost what I would consider like an Evangelical who bases their entire perspective on the gospel of Christ from one appals Epistles. I say oh if you just read Paul, you know, if you just read this Epistle of Paul, that summarizes the gospel, in my opinion, you need to go with what? Jesus Christ, talk. First and foremost. Well let's let's talk about Jacob to for just a second here. Right? Because he also gives a caveat in that in that he says you're not to do this unless the Lord Commands right. Okay, so don't do it.

14:48 Unless the Lord commands I would say this DNC 132 is very clear that it was restored right and to my knowledge a Manifesto that says to whom it may concern isn't to Revelation and it doesn't negate the Commandment that was given. So even if you want to put all your eggs, Eggs in one basket on Jacob, to you have to understand. Jacob, does give a caveat in there, where he says, unless the Lord commands it, don't do it. But when it comes to the Latter Day Saints, the command was definitely given.

15:32 Now when you look at it really plural marriage more than any other principal, the gospel. We believe it needs to be directed by Revelation from God, right? It doesn't just come from Yourself in your own desire but that you need to be given Revelation from God to live it. In fact, that actually reminds me of like ww, Phelps recalled, Joseph Smith told him. He's so there is a revelation in July of 1831, about intermarriage with the lamanites which was understood to be a revelation that plural marriage would eventually be restored and WWE Phelps. Records has a copy of this Revelation and he sends it to you know he copies it. It sends it to Brigham Young, but also with this comment afterwards, he says, quote about three years after this Revelation was given.

16:19 I asked, Brother, Joseph privately, how we that were mentioned in this Revelation could take wives of the natives as we were all married men. He replied instantly in the same air that Abraham took, Hagar and canterna and Jacob took Rachel bilhah and zilpah by Revelation. The Saints of the Lord are always directed by revelation. And so you're right. You know, we did there should be this cautious - in regards to people going after it based off of their own desires and not having the Lord, direct them because according to what Brigham Young said. And according to what Lyman lat, why tree called Joseph Smith told the apostles and warn them that quote the principle of plural marriage would quote damn more men than it would save and Brigham Young said, the use of it will send thousands to hell and so Um, just like you mentioned Jacob to verse 30, that caveat for if I will I will command my people. Otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. And I have sources showing that as early as 1840 for, that was being used as the pro polygamy verse. Like, people try to say that that was a later reinterpretation know, it was used that way and Nabu is a propylene gummy bears.

17:34 But there's also verse 27, 3 verses earlier where Jacob tubers Even interestingly says that no man among you shall have but one wife. So it's interesting that it's, you know, it's it's not in all kinds of places. Why would he include the among you to that verse? If it wasn't, if it was supposed to be an eternal period that God never would be okay with plural marriage, right, right. So So, but you do have to go into Jacob chapter 3 as well. So, Jacob 3 verse 5. I'm just turning to it real quick. So Jacob 3 verse 5 says but there was a commandment to their father, Lehi, which was given of the Lord that they should have saved were one wife and concubine say she'd have none so they threw father Lehi where actually the early Nephites were given a commandment not to practice poem. Actually Orson Pratt.

18:37 Interestingly commented on this. He said, this is the only place in Scripture that I am aware of where, any branch of the House of Israel was forbidden from the practice of plural, marriage. And he goes, why was it? Because they was too small, he said they were. They were all under the guidance of the Lord and it would have been too small of a population for it to work. And so that brings to mind other statements about about you know, because some people say that why doesn't the scriptures? Why don't the scriptures tell us about Adam being a polygamist what they say Noah was a polygamous. If this is, you know, this was essential higher law and part of it could be say it was left out of the record for, you know, specific purposes.

19:24 There's some arguments about Adam potentially having multiple wives on this Earth. But I certainly, again, would I think Brigham was pretty clear that he did, if you read the Journal of discourses, This is volume one, right? Where he says Adam came to this Earth with one of his wives Eve. Well, he said, he definitely had them in heaven, but you know, it's questionable whether the atom on Earth and basically what Brigham Young said. As to the monogamy of Father, Adam and mother Eve. He said that they were just enough to get the population started. And he basically said, part of the reason for plural marriage is because of a wicked world where men are inclined to wickedness and thus depriving women of the opportunity to have a righteous husband and so Brigham you get sand.

20:12 So that's why I say in the beginning of the Nephites, they're given a special commandment not to look for America because there are equal number and they're all under the guidance of the Lord at that time. But later on, in the Book of Mormon, you can see that's a amulek, was a polygamist. There's other examples of hinting at polygamy by different individuals in the Book of Mormon. So in that and so that would explain why I say Adam or no, I weren't necessary polygamists in In the beginning of the general, their Generations is because there wasn't a, you know, it was starting a clean slate, if that makes sense, right? And so, and so, that's one argument. If you don't want to believe in the arguments that I may have had other wives, but it's not explicitly laid out in the, in the Old Testament.

21:02 So, One of the arguments I've heard against plural marriage. Especially, from an Evangelical point of view is that. Well, every time it happens in the Bible, it turns out to be not something that you would want, right? They point to Abraham and the problems that he had with Hagar and and whatnot or Solomon marrying, wives outside of Israel, what would be your rebuttal to that? Man, if you look at these stories in the Bible, about men, having more than one child, you know, there's some pretty, you know, good compelling evidence that having more than one child is a good idea, because if you look at Cain and Abel, you know, he's murdering his brother. If you look at Esau and Esau and Jacob, there's this severe jealousy to the point where Esau is considering killing Jacob. So clearly the Bible is trying to include these terrible situations to tell us.

22:02 At having lots of, you know that having more than one child is a very bad idea. This kind of nut, that's how I would personally respond to it because the reality is life is messy, history is messy. And I'm glad that God includes all of the messy stories in Genesis to let us know that you know, people can be called of God even though they're in imperfect circumstances in imperfect families is kind of my way of looking at that personally. What about You have any other well, I think. This has been my take on it for a while. You know how the news doesn't ever really give you, you know, the the day-to-day of the mundane, right?

22:51 Here's my thing. We know that that Jacob had I think three or four wives and the Old Testament and we don't hear about any real issues there. Right. We don't see too much struggle. In terms of, you know, his home life, if I remember correctly. And so I tend to, I tend to think that the Lord uses those those circumstances, like with Hagar and Abraham, and Solomon is kind of cautionary. Tales, write it, this is what happens if, if you know, a man's heart isn't in the right place or a woman's heart, isn't in the right place, it leads to disaster. And so, rather than Focus just on the, on the The negative of the situation.

23:49 You have to look at the breadth of scripture and really understand that more than likely there were a lot of men who are practicing plural marriage that we never heard about, right? The other thing I would say is a lot of times people will use the absence of evidence as a way of justifying a position, right? They do it with Christ a lot. They'll say well, why? In Christ's command it and then you test him. Well, just because he didn't speak about it. Directly doesn't mean that it's outside. The pail of Orthodoxy, it just means we don't have record of it until the restoration, Yeah. So, so you mentioned the story of Jacob and his wives, what's interesting is that's one of the places in Genesis, in Leia said, in Genesis, 30 Verse 18.

24:44 God gave me my higher because I have given my maiden to my husband. I ate as a plural, wife, and so, Orsa, Pratt made this compelling comment on this verse, whoever heard of the Lord, hearing ones prayer, because a person was doing an evil, if polygamy were a crime, God, Condemned her, because she gave up her, husband her handmaid to her husband, we can suppose that any woman not acquainted with the long commandant of the most high and believing it to be simple for husband to have two wives, would Express herself in such a matter. The Lord heard my prayer and gave me the fifth son because I gave my handmaiden to my husband as a wife. This shows to us that Jacobs wife Leia did really consider it something pleasing in the sight of God. And so there's many other Places in the verse in the New Testament, like a lot of.

25:34 A lot of people try. I say that DNC 132 and and Jacob chapter to contradict and talk talking about David and Solomon. And I think that's very superficial reading of that. And in reality when you look at First Kings 15-5 it and both also the Joseph Smith translation of it, it's is very expensive. That David did not commit any major transgression in his life, except for what he did in the matter of Uriah. So, this is almost, you know, DNC 132 I think, almost says this almost identically.

26:15 It's not quite the same, but it's pretty similar. He said, because David did that, which was right in the eyes of the Lord and turned not aside from anything that he commanded him. All the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the hittite. And if you go back just a second Samuel, he talks about the lord gave you your gave you the kingdom. He gave you your Masters wives into your bosom. And he said, if that's what I've been too much, I would have given you even more in the King James that's kind of obscured, it just as I would have given you such and such things, but in the Hebrew, that's idiom. Meaning, I would have given you much more and so other translations get that idiom better. And so, you know, but people say well, where is it? Commanded anywhere in the scriptures and I Say, if you look at, so the Old Testament, obviously isn't going to contain the full details of God's dealings with the Patriarchs under in there.

27:10 You know what they were told? And, or not, you know, told to do and what they did under, the milk has increased because this is a record that has been passed down through. Numerous generation, centuries of apostate, Israel, and it was even a bridge by Moses arguably to not, you know, for the people in there, apostate condition. So, It wasn't going to contain everything about the Melchizedek priesthood there. In fact, that's what the Joseph Smith. Translation says, is that like Everlasting Covenant and the holy order in its ordinances were not going to be included in the tablets that he was going to write for the children of Israel. And so with well you know you have to take it like you said, where it's not going to give you the full details and fortunately we have a prophet with the Melchizedek priesthood who restored.

28:01 All the knowledge of the Holy order and its ordinances to us, you know, and gave us the law of the new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage in DNC 132 so yeah, no. I think you're spot on the other thing. I think that we fail to read and I say we I mean, me included, is that? We look at the scriptures and we read them with our 21st century eyes and we do not take into To account custom culture or any of those other things, right? So what we may be looking for now as something that might be extraordinary or something of particular importance, may not have been that that out of the norm in ancient Israel, right?

28:51 Where, where, you know, they're constantly breaking down. Hey, and that dude had two wives and that dude had three wives and and that dude was single and that you just have Had one wife, right? Because it was the norm in that time period. For plural marriage, right? So, so we tend to look for those things because again, we're in the 21st century, and we're still dealing with Victorian era, kind of principles, and we tend to look for those things. But to some of those ancient Israelites, it was just part and parcel of life Yep. And so I can on that comment of, you know, the problem looking back with 21st century eyes, I and I totally understand people who struggle with with, you know, some of the things that were, you know, said or taught in the early days of the restoration or, you know, stuff that's in the Bible. I just think back to this Brigham Young quote that I think that every saint should, you know, keep take to heart where he said the Saints who live, their religion will be exalted. For they will never deny, any Revelation, which the Lord has given.

30:03 Or may give though, when there is a Doctrine coming to them, which they cannot comprehend fully, they may be found saying the Lord sent it this unto me and I pray that he will save and preserve me from denying anything which proceedeth from him. And give me the patience to wait until I can understand it for myself. Such persons will never deny but will allow those subjects to which they do not understand to remain until the visions of their minds become open. This is a course which I have invariably Soon. And if anything came to me, that I could not understand, I would pray until I could comprehend it, do not reject anything because it is new or strange and do not. See, are Norge. Eier. What comes from the Lord? Or if we do, we endanger our salvation.

30:44 And so the key part that I like is, you know, give me the patience to wait until I can understand it for myself. So that made a being patient with the Lord and not being Hasty to, you know, the pass judgment call on anything that That, you know, is said to have come from the Lord. So with plural marriage, I think DNC 132 if we jump into plural marriage as laid out in DNC, 132 it clearly lays out that it is a higher law of the gospel. And it's not just so upon has some apologists for the church. Will try to say it was just a temporary commandment, you know, rather than being an eternal law. But I think it's very clear from many statements from the early Brethren that it was considered to be Higher law. For example, the statement by Wilfred Woodruff said we have many Bishops and Elders who have but one wife their abundantly qualified to enter the higher law and take more, but their wives will not let them any man who will permit a woman to lead him and bind him down is, but of, but little account in the Church and Kingdom of God, the law of patriarchal marriage and plurality of wives is a revelation commandment of God. To us and we should obey it but says one if you do judge McKean will be after you.

32:06 So this is an 1875 and they were facing the threat of being thrown into prison for it. We're just barely starting to and he says, what God has get what has given us a future in these mountains and The Valleys of these mountains is because we have obeyed this part of the celestial law of God. And on the comment about Judge, McKean will be after you Franklin d-- Richards, recall that Brigham Young said that a Man who wouldn't be willing to go to prison for a good wife, isn't deserving of a wife, if he isn't willing to be willing to go to Creek, you know, to serve serve some time for that marriage. So and another quote, this is another Wilford Woodruff quote and there's a bunch of different leaders but this is just a good one.

32:49 He said when a man according to the Revelation, marries a wife under the holy order which God has revealed and then marries another the same way he enters into the new and Everlasting Covenant and so far He is God, he has to obey the law. So I think that's its it was very clearly understood by the early Brethren. That this was an essential document that this was essentially a higher law to fully live, the new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage and the Reit. You have a thought. Yeah. Can I just won't stop you right there and I want to explore something real quick because I think it's super important to understand this if we look at what the with what. Our bread.

33:31 What what? The Brethren are teaching early on in the LDS Church's history? The new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage was about plural marriage. This idea that none in a know it that's just what we call ceiling that isn't necessarily the case, right? And and I know that this may seem harsh to some people and and I apologize for that, but I got to call a spade, a spade and I got to tell truth as I understand it from the history I've gleaned. And if you listen to those early Brethren talk, especially in, Utah, period. When they're safely tucked away in the mountains for a while.

34:11 It's clear that when you married a wife in the temple, even your first wife and you entered into quote, the new and out Everlasting, Covenant of marriage. You were also making a covenant to say, I'm open to this meaning plural marriage while you're wrong on all the all the laws rights and pertaining to the new and Everlasting Covenant, that's part of the promise in the marriage ceremony. So Oh, absolutely. And on your subject on that same subject, you know, some Mormons today think that the term Celestial marriage. Justices synonymous for Eternal Marriage. But in reality, it wasn't until the late 1880s that those two terms started.

34:53 You know that Celestial marriage started to be redefined in Earth, Brigham Young's day and John Taylor always. So Brigham Young John Taylor and I think even Wilford Woodruff always to find the celestial marriage. As being floral Celestial, plural marriage. It was Anonymous for plural marriage. It wasn't just an eternal marriage. And so, like, in the petition for amnesty by the first presidency in 1891, basically trying to say can the federal government basically give amnesty to all former polygamists, you know, to not face any threat of, you know, of legal action against us. If, you know, we don't take any more wives. It says, we formerly He taught our people that polygamy or Celestial marriage as commanded by God. Through Joseph Smith was right and it was necessary to a man's highest exaltation in the life to come so polygamy or Celestial marriage so that you know, uses those terms interchangeably. So part of the reason I would say that this is considered to live, the fullness of the lock is part of what understanding what exaltation is according to what Joseph Smith taught about exaltation?

36:07 Ation. What would you say? Joseph Smith said exaltation was just off the top of your head. Just off the top of my head. I know you're going to throw me a curve ball here. But I would say it was to be as God is to be able to have eternal increase to be able to to inherit all the rights and powers and principles upon which God operates. The BS God is is a very good answer. That's actually exactly what this quote says, but slightly different in your expanding on it. He says, to know, God, we need to learn how to become God's. God is exalted by the addition of subjects to his family or Kingdom.

36:49 So, exaltation is about having a family. It's about creating an eternal Family Kingdom and so been Jeff Johnson recalled. Joseph taught, the first commandment was too much. Multiply and the prophet taught us that our dominion and Power in the great future would be commiserated with the numbers of wives children and friends that we inherit here and our mission to this Earth was to organize a nucleus of Heaven to take with us, the increase of which there would be. No. And so, that's, that's a quote I absolutely love that, you know. It's, you know, the fullness of the Gospel is not just about yourself, but an exaltation is about yourself. It's a family affair. Is is what it was taught by Joseph Smith. So we established that polygamy is necessary for, you know, that it is the higher law, right?

37:42 We're I think we've totally established that to the little fullness of the new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage. But this, every person in this life have to live plural marriage or to go to the Celestial Kingdom and to receive in order to go to the Celestial Kingdom or to be married in the Celestial Kingdom. I would say that that common Miss unmiss conception among many fundamentalist. Is they think that if you don't live plural marriage in this life, you are not going to go to the social Kingdom or not be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom but I don't think that's necessary. I don't think that's an accurate understanding of what the early Brethren top. So Brigham Young said that, you know, everyone who is faithful to all the principles are revealed, even if they aren't married, even if they aren't purely married. They will be able to inherit Celestial Glory, but the amount of Glory you inherit, is based on your obedience to the Commandments and the, and the family kingdom, which you have sealed to you here on Earth.

38:45 So number of quotes on this. I, this is something that I actually compiled a quite a number of quotes. Oh Graham, young said men and women will be saved the Celestial Kingdom, without even being married at all others, with only one wife, some again, with many wives, whoever continues faithful. The end, we'll have all the exaltation they can possibly enjoy. Let every person. So live us to enjoy the Holy Ghost and please God our Father. The Revelation DNC 132 though, the greatest ever given demand more than that will yet be given when we are ready to receive it. And so a lot of people point to the quote will, then Brigham Young say that the only men who will become God's, even the sons of God are those who enter into polygamy to that? I would say you need to read that quote in the entire context.

39:29 In order to become a god, you will We'll eventually have to enter into polygamy, but he's talking in the context she's saying and you have to accept the principle of plural marriage. In order to go to the Celestial Kingdom, he says, I wish to say to you and to all the world that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings, which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamous, at least in your faith, where you will come short of enjoying the Salvation and Glory which Abraham has obtained. And so for me, you know, I'm just supporting this in my face, you know. I'm not Living that principle. I don't know if the Lord will call me deliver that principle in this life or not. For me that, you know, that, that's what that that's up to him.

40:10 What he decides to call me to do or not. But what's important is that we accept all the revelations and all the principles that God has revealed. And so Brigham Young said, can a man obtain an exaltation without a wife or to do? He said, you can't put a gallon measure in a pipe measure, but both can be film full. If a man is faithful with one wife, he may grow to become a gallon measure and there's a bunch of other quotes on this. Brigham Young said, can a man obtained as complete a Salvation with one wife as with 10? No, he said, quote a man can obtain as complete salvation with one wife as with 10, but will it be as great or neural? Numerous know, and another one just to kind of hammer the since show that I'm not cherry picking but I've actually, you know, got few sources.

41:02 This isn't the autobiography of John Hawley. He said the year 1830 60 1868. I had some business in Salt Lake and while they're there was a question as Brigham Young in a school, the prophets, whether a man could obtain a Celestial Glory with but one wife, he answered he could but not to the fullest extent of Glory. The question please me although I wish to progress in that glory to the fullest extent of light and intelligence. This question, answer, ease my mind somewhat on the subject of multiplying wives as I had previously. I stood Brigham Young's teachings before that that no man can obtain Celestial Glory unless he had come to the law of multiplication. And so, you know, similarly, lime and white actually taught his followers. The the same thing where John Hawley told testified in the temple lock case, he said in those that were sealed and spiritual marriage were said to be in polygamy, as well as those that were not the understanding was that they would enjoy the same Glory as Others.

42:02 But the ones that had more than one wife would enjoy a greater portion of it. And then so that was his testimony about what you was taught by lime and white and Texas. And so, in my opinion, that bring them young, as teaching, one thing, and Utah, and Lyman White's teaching, the exact same thing in Texas, and lime, and white never followed. Brigham Young. That is in my opinion. Pretty slam dunk evidence that came from Joseph Smith, that they both receive the doctor in plural, marriage and the doctrine that it was for a higher. Degree of exaltation in a fullness of exaltation, rather than, you know, being a requirement to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. If that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm going to kind of put this in layman's terms real quick to make sure that that me and the listeners, you're all understanding here because we do hear that, you know, you have to enter into it in this life or else you're kind of screwed, right? For lack of a better term.

42:59 My argument to that just as use have, It out is, you have to be willing to enter into it, right? You have to have that servant's heart, you have to make your will the will of the father, right? And that doesn't mean that you're going to live it here. That just means that you're open to it. You're open to everything that the Lord speaks to bless you with and despite our best efforts. And this is the thing I love about Mormonism is that we tend to be very pragmatic as we approach our Our Doctrine, right? We still despite that pragmatism. We still have to rely on the Lord.

43:40 We still have to have faith and understand that. Even if things don't pan out like we want to hear they can pan out the way we're promised on the other side. Is that a fair assessment of what you were trying to stay right there? Yeah, absolutely. So it's not necessary. So it is the higher law. It is fullness of the law and it is It's necessary to be a God. But, you know, you, if you are not permitted by circumstance that, you know, the Lord will not, you know, he will not punish anyone that just because of circumstance were not able to live all this Commandments just like we were talking about the early Nephites, there's nothing in my opinion that would say that Nephi isn't going to be exalted or, you know, Jacob or you know any other early Nephites who happened to only be committed to live monogamy. So I want to go back to what you were saying about Wyman white teachings.

44:35 One thing in Texas and Brigham Young teaching. The same thing in Utah and they're not affiliated. Okay, if you read Brigham's account of when he first learns of plural, marriage, the dude ain't a fan, right? He says he steps out after learning about it, and he sees a funeral procession and he says, he actually envies the, the corpse inside the coffin, right? He was, he was struggling with this just like everyone else was up front. Yeah, he saw the trials that they would have to endure for this principal like this if - lustful there are so many easier ways for a man to satisfy his lust than to live plural marriage. Pearl marriage is just as much.

45:22 You know, it's definitely a blessing for those who can successfully live it right. But it's just you would know this better than me that it's just as much responsibility. It's more, you know, it's a family times 2, right? And so what I would say is this is that one if you're living it correctly, There, there are no illicit stories to tell, right? I had, I had a good friend when I was, when I was right after. I mean, my first plural wife got together and he's like, tell me some stories. What's that? Like and I was like, come here, I'll tell you.

46:03 It's just like being married. Once only a second time and I just left. Is that right? I mean, there's, there's yeah, yeah, no, absolutely there. There's, there's more responsibility. You now have to protect the heart of two women, right? And I've always said, if I never, yeah, it's just, it's just more responsibility and you got to be willing to embrace that, and then find the joy in that as well. So, and so, like I said, when I'm explain this, I am not saying that it isn't a Doctrine for exaltation because as John Taylor it was made abundantly. Clear in the revelations, he received the 88 to Revelation the 1886 Revelation.

46:51 So right after receiving the 8th, you Revelation, what did John Taylor say? He said, if we do not keep the same law that our heavenly father, has we cannot go with him. The word of the Lord to us, was that? That we did not obey the law. We could not go where our heavenly father, dwells a man obeying, a lower law is not qualified. Who preside over those who keep a higher law and so, can you imagine? I don't, it doesn't logically make sense that a man who is not live. Plural, marriage will preside over men. Living plural. Marriage is a god unless you know you're going to have to enlarge in your heart and accept that, that is something that will eventually be required to. This is DNC 132 lays out in your eternal.

47:33 A progression if not here then in the next life. So absolutely. So to kind of get into what do I segue into polygamy. Now we're talking about Lyman white and that's almost a great place you know start? Yeah. Let's simply let's let's get right into that. So there's just so many sources that prove that Joseph Smith was the fountain founder of Latter Day. Saint polygamy, lime and white had absolutely nothing to do with Brigham Young. After August, 1840. For Lyman white, he was there for the August 8th 1844 conference. He was use their number at the time.

48:14 He immediately packed his wagons and you know, he was heading off to Texas almost immediately that same month. He first has to go regroup with his his Colony up in Wisconsin and then they go to Texas. He does not stick around long enough for Brigham Young to have any influence on him yet. He taught plural marriage. He practiced plural marriage, you know among his colony in Texas. And you know there's just so many other sources when it comes to the evidence of Joseph Smith's polygamy. So just to start off with a quote that I think is important and looking at evidence as a historian, the hisses from D, Michael Quinn in early Mormonism in the magical world view page.

48:59 322 the historians role is to avoid isolating pieces of evidence as if they exist in a vacuum when when tainted by polemics, and Genetics historian seek to understand how each fact that is possibly relevant. May be connected in the past, with other evidence has no matter how fragmentary, we never understand the past. We will never understand the past has a seamless whole yet. We should be willing to acknowledge even unfamiliar patterns that diverse evidences outline. So the big difference between a historian who believe, who argues that Joseph Smith Crock-Pot, and practice polygamy, and those who argue against it is the historian. Argues for jealousness practice of polygamy, does he's taking a holistic view of the evidence?

49:46 He's taking the totality the big picture of all the different evidence from all the different sources and putting it together to create a picture. While a person who is a polygamy skeptic or a polygamy denier will try to say, we'll try use a breadcrumb trail of evidence. I'm going to point you to this specific thing and I'm going to point you to this thing and he's trying to lead you along to his conclusion and he's going to leave out all of the evidence that does not support his conclusion and honest historian is going to take the totality of the evidence and he needs to account for the totality of the evidence and granted that means history is a lot of work.

50:31 I have just I've been studying the history of Josephus pro-marriage. All the evidence for it or four or Years. Now since I stood since it first popped on my radar is a major issue that that was starting to be debated. I wanted to know the evidence and I feel like even I've only scratched the surface of all the evidence and understanding all the evidence but I do I have put together quite a bit on this and I even public wrote a paper in 2022. Actually yeah either 2020 2021 to kind of address it because It was becoming such a hot-button subject. So, history takes a lot of work and it really reminds me of a quote by Murray rothbard.

51:18 I don't know if you're familiar with whom we're not part of his but you is Economist brilliant economists of in the in the libertarian school of thought he was considered almost the father of Liberty, the libertarian movement in America. And he was very big on economics and other saying economic theory, he said, is no crime to be. Economics, which is after all A specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a dismal science. But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and voracious opinion, economic subjects while remaining in a state of ignorance. I would take that quote and apply that to history saying. It's a no crime to be ignorant of History, which is after all A specialized discipline.

52:00 And one that most people don't spend too much time on but it is a responsible job and very loud and voracious opinion on it when you have it taken. The time to study it out fully so, to be a good historian. And Stuntin in studying Mormon history, you really need to be balanced in several different areas. You need to familiarize yourself with what's been written on the subject or the what books and articles are on that subject, you need to have some experience. Looking at some of the source material, like going back and digging into the sources for yourself. Rather than pressing someone else's interpretation of the sources you need to, also be interacting Other people who are students or scholars in that field and getting kind of their feedback on different ideas and different understandings. You know, to be interacting with peers in that subject. And, you know, and 40 just really need to be studying quite a bit when you know, it's not just a little bit. You need to be studying quite a bit. If you wanted to really be a historian in a field and so what's interesting is I actually like I came up with this List. And then I saw some polygamy Skeptics. Use the same list as like you're throwing out the list you but you're only agreeing with it and word, not insincerity. Like these people will pretend they want to you know, they're just searching for the truth.

53:25 They'll pretend that they're taking the totality of sources and that they're interacting with with other Scholars but really in my experience, they generally do not want to do that and they want to kind of create a little bubble. Of their historical perspective. If that makes sense. It does, you know I'm going to ask you here. Can you give me an example of that? Um, for example, the hemlock knots project, in my opinion, is the very much a breadcrumb trail on many different issues. If you might think that he's just trying to give an unbiased take, but it's a very much, a breadcrumb trail of different things to lead you to their conclusion and Denver Snuffer's things against plural, marriage, one of his talks.

54:14 He just wanted to speak on two sources. You want to speak on the Nancy. Rigdon letter in 1842, the happiness letter and you want to speak on a letter from Joseph Smith to Relief Society and he gives an hour long talk. Just on these two sources and uses these two sources alone to argue against, you know, plural, marriage being, you know, historically verifiable. He's like if I can just Tear Down The credibility of two different documents then, you know, you know, that's that's he thinks he's won his case. But that isn't how you do history, you need to be taking into account all the documents, all of the testimony and for me it's not just you know, some people There's a lot of later testimony, and you should just stick with the Contemporary stuff. What comes in Joseph, Smith's lifetime, in my opinion, plural, marriage.

55:07 So this it might just my opinion. This is a fact, everyone admits that when plural marriage is introduced in Nabu, it's introduced in secret, right? Hmm, is not something introduced publicly. The reality is that if something is introduced in secret, what contemporary evidence should you expect there to be? Because you really expect, they're going to be a man. Mountain of contemporary evidence, if something is introduced secret and they're concerned about people, possibly exposing it and getting people in persecution or legal trouble over it. Of course not, they're going to be very guarded about that and that's why there is a limitation on the Contemporary sources, but the reality is there is still pull. Marriage was introduced to enough people and Nabu that it's very clear.

55:55 That it was something that was taught and practiced. And so for me, when it comes to interacting with skull is, so with with peers in this stuff I want to steal man. I want to hear the most the strongest arguments against my historical position. Like I'm not going to pick a weak argument, just to repair it down. I want to hear the strongest arguments that my opponents can make and respond to them. And I think that say when I see the work of people like, Justin Griffin, Or Michelle Stones, 132 problems podcast. They really do try to almost Straw Men, their opponents rather than steel, man and provide to, you know, engage the strongest possible arguments.

56:43 I actually noticed. So Taylor Smith the two debates with Justin Griffin, Justin Griffin, initially uploaded those on his YouTube channel. He didn't just unlist those debates sometime in the last year, he set them to private. He does not want people, you know he's not very happy about how those debates went down with somebody who studied it out and had strong evidence to argue against his Carthage conspiracy 2.0 basically. And so that to me and he and his latest movie will have to probably do a whole other episode just to talk about doctrine of Christ and who killed Joe Smith, part 2. But his latest movie, he talks to a detective and I'm like, oh, he's talking to a professional friends, exit, active, I want to see him and hash out the hardest arguments against his against his theory with this detective.

57:38 No, he, there's no interaction of him are showing the strong arguments against his theory with this detective. He's rather trying to sell his theory to is detective. He's like, why don't you look, he's trying to prove his theory rather than have this too. Detective challenging. And so that to me is strong evidence that he's not really, you know, they often say I'm just seeking truth, I'm just the unbiased person I have I'm not in the LDS church anymore so I don't have any bias stopping me. But the reality is, if you're seeking truth, you're going to be looking at the hardest-hitting arguments against your position and addressing those hardest-hitting arguments if that makes sense, it does. I think this also speaks to something that I I think is super important and that is when we do history, If we're honest and how we do this and I have this exercise, not only with the gospel but with the Founding Fathers as well. if you start with, A presupposition of what you think is, right? And then all you do is try to go find facts to prove that you're not really doing history, right?

58:51 What you're doing is cherry picking sources. That proved or what you think, proves your point and ignoring everything else. When you study history you have to come at this unbiased just wanting to know. Now history is messy because its people and its people in a time where maybe the best documents weren't weren't kept around, we didn't have Facebook that logged, all that stuff for us over and over. So there are certain inferences that have to be made but You still have to approach it in kind of a scientific mindset where you're like, okay, let's just find the truth. Whatever the truth is, the truth. Shouldn't have an agenda.

59:36 The truth should just be the truth because it is absolutely. And so, when it comes to history, the big problem I see is people think that if you can get a few piece, you know, you can collect the number of facts to support your narrative, that that is how you do history, but I just know that. As I mentioned it you need to take a comprehensive and holistic view of the sources it so one analogy that I really liked when it comes to history's history is like making a map you need to figure out what are the important things to include in your map but also what's just as important is what you you know, what is not being emphasized in your map and you know part of the reason you have interaction you need to have interaction with opposing views. Use is so you can have some pushback, you know. So I'm not the biggest fan of peer review because peer review and practice in these.

1:00:34 And a lot of academic disciplines is almost, you know, like it's being disconnected from the original sources and it's almost Truth by consensus. And that's not what he review is intended. That you need to be able to replicate it. And other people need to be able to check your work and see if you're, you know, if you're taking into account all the Relevant facts. And so, you know, no one can actually even write a perfect history because a perfect history is impossible. You can't document absolutely every little detail about every person's life, you know, it would just be impossible to write such a history. And so, you always, you have to figure out what is relevant and you need to address all the relevant and important factors to in creating that history.

1:01:24 So in another question that comes up is but a lot and this is Common from a right-wing perspective. Is, is it academic day? Me a corrupt, you know, should we really put our faith and trust in Academia? And I would say, one thing that I really like in an interview that was done by courtesy Arvin on Tucker Carlson where he said. A lot of things that are probably over 90, you know, 99% of our heads. But one thing that stood out to me appointee made that was really good. Is that the most Corrupts Academia is places, that's in connection to government power or, and where you can. If you can emphasize your power and your importance to get more funding, there is a bad incentive there to, you know, to, to induce your to skew reality to give yourself that more power, more funding if you can make yourself inversely important. So for example, with If climate change, whether you believe in it or not, we aren't we're in 2023 now. It's supposed to be.

1:02:30 Then the end of the world decades for the last several decades. We were told and we agreed to Turning Point where there's there's no returning and you know but that that's that that fear mongering only makes sense in the attempt of them trying to boost their own power, their get more funding, their own importance. And so when you look at And so when you look at fields and you look at, is there a bad incentive there for them to make that make, you know, to exaggerate the importance of their work. And so there isn't say awoke math because you know, mathematics is a place where it's in connection to government power, you know, by having you know higher math. So in Mormon history, the question is does the LDS church? You know, have this institutional power And control over The Narrative of LDS history that and I would say that's definitely not true.

1:03:30 When you look at everything that is published both by people in the church as well as people out of the church there. Have been times where the church has attempted to use influence to to shut up different scholarly voices. But the most, they can do to someone. You know that there's not much is if a scholar wants to write on a subject and piss it off the church, they can do it and the Now the is, is that all this history that's been come out in the last hundred years of Mormon history is, you know, the church is under the control of the government, not the government is in control of the church. And so, the church really as an institution doesn't have the kind of power that, you know, some people might imagine it to be it.

1:04:14 And fortunately does have too much influence over its members to, you know, to the detriment of members in my opinion. But Doesn't really control the academic narrative and there's a wide consensus from Scholars of all different perspectives from LDS, historians to the reorganized Church historians to non-believers to um you know to former members to agnostic, you know you know people who don't have a leg in the fight either way you know there's a wide consensus regarding Joseph, Smith's polygamy and you know you should take trust that consensus. Just because it's there but that should make you cautious of this.

1:04:57 Absolutely throwing out. What has been written by historians on the subject of plural of Joseph Smith's pro-marriage if that makes sense. Yep it does. So to get into some other sources, some contemporary sources of plural, marriage. One Source that I think is fascinating is a letter by the lake. Campbell Heber C. Kimball is look wife to her husband Heber C, Kimball in June of 1843. And this letter is really great for a number of reasons where she mentions that Harley people.

1:05:37 Patton and his wife. Mary Ann Pratt, were taught, plural were being taught plural marriage by Joseph and she originally writes Joseph. But then she tries to erase Joseph. Like, she wanted just put Jay, Jay had even appointed one for that. You know, that you've been appointed one and she's afraid they're going to run too fast and before marriage because he says he was interrupted before he got the instruction needed and they aren't be explicit about saying plural marriage in the letter. But the context of it this is Clearly, they receive private instruction regarding plural marriage. And so then she near the end of the the letter, she mentions. The case of Joseph, be Nobles first, plural, wife, Sarah, Allie and her pregnancy.

1:06:23 He said I have a secret to tell you but I'm almost afraid it was committed to Sarah and she requested not to tell me she was requested, not to tell me but she said she considered me a part of herself and she would tell me and I might tell you for it was just as you had prophesied. I said, would come to pass now if you know what you said about Surly, then you have got the secret for it is even so and she is tickled about it and they all appear in better spirits than they did before. How they will carry it out as more than I know. But I hope they, but I hope they have got more faith than I have brother Noble spokes, all send love to you so it's, you know, very, you know, very cryptic, the way she writes it, but it's clear. There's something secretive and it's clearly alluding to the first plural marriage pregnancy in Nauvoo.

1:07:07 And so that's one source that I would use to debunked. The claim that, you know, that there's no evidence of the speeding consummated or plural marriage. In this life, in the lifetime of Joseph Smith because this was written June 29th, 1843 and it was about contemporary events in Abu and was about it. Mentions Joseph. And just been, you know, that he had just been taken captive. They were trying to, people are trying to extradite him to me. Zuri. And so they were very concerned about all of the different things that we're going on at that time and she's writing details about plural marriage at that time. So, another source that, you know, that would be a very compelling contemporary Source in my opinion is you know there's just dozens I actually made a list and if you could think you've got a list of all the sources and you find out, there's more like I was recently Aware of a letter by by Jedi and grants to Joseph Smith in 1843 where he alludes to, there is a plural, marriage proposal.

1:08:20 He's very cryptic, he's very alluding to it, but that Joseph and made a proposal and it created quite a stir from those who were aware of this letter. And and he said that he was able to get his hands on it and that he he says, if you know that I'm a faithful brother, I I put the letter to the fire to avoid it any more further controversy regarding this and so, you know, he's very cryptic but he's Redford seeing these things. If you go and you look at the William, Clay and Diaries. William Clayton references that this letter was he said he writes about I'm Joseph. God led her from Jedi, am granite and Emma is furious. There's several different instances where there's just Illusions to plural marriage activity and Clayton's journals that you would No, it was you know what he's talking about. If you didn't have the other sources unfortunately that letter from Jenna and Grant has survived. But with other sources like say so Joseph Smith letter to the Whitney's in August of 1842, just after Joseph take Sarah and Whitney is a plural wife.

1:09:27 The letter Joseph writes them where he says he has very strong feelings for them after what's transpired recently and he says he wants the witness all come the three of them and And he's wants to steal the fullness of his blessings upon their head, so he's referencing some private morning's work. You want to do but he says, but don't come when Emma comes because otherwise, you won't be there won't be safety. But if you can come, when Emma's not here, there will be perfect. We can attend to the matter in perfect safety. And so, he basically tells them to, you know, burn this letter after you read it. But fortunately, they kept the letter and that is a letter. One of the few documents we have in Joseph, Smith's own, Handwriting and it's not it does have any explicit reference to plural marriage there but he's referencing that something important and recently transpired between him and the Whitney family.

1:10:18 And that is referencing the marriage of their daughter which happened on July 27th 1842 and the Revelation documenting that marriage has been passed down the Whitney family and was preserved in the archives and included in with a journal entries afterwards where Joseph actually steal Eels he'd be performs re baptisms for Newell and Elizabeth Whitney and then performs a marriage feeling for them. The next real shortly after that August 1842 letter. So you know there's just so many sources of William Clayton, Diaries and of themselves a recent critique I heard because like I said, I'm always looking for the strongest arguments they said, well wasn't Joseph telling his scribes to, you know, some Joseph is telling them to keep Secret.

1:11:08 And he's publicly saying that is record, some journals would prove him innocent and plural marriage. You know that prove all these men, perjurers were accusing him of spiritual life is MM and adultery. So what how does William Clayton's Journal fit with that? Is he conspiring against Joseph? And the reality is when you look at what Lane Clayton's Journal it's so much of it is written in code like 'I came to you know and and you know he's using abbreviations. Deviations, he's using single letters. He's like, 10 a.m. MJ to SL, you know, you wouldn't know what that stands for if it wasn't for William Clayton later on saying, that was marrying Joseph to to Sarah Lawrence, you know, it is what he says, you know, it's like it's not even, it's not even half a page entry and he's being very, very cryptic and what he's writing to avoid, you know, if his journals happened to fall into unfaithful That could be, you know, into the hands of an enemy.

1:12:10 And so, to answer the reply, what well, why did Joseph Smith on May 26? 1844 say, is he kept scribes that would prove him innocent of all these allegations that were being made against him. So he's talking about his own journal, which is kept by Willard Richards, and that's the journal that the polygamy Dyers do use to say, we have all these State. We have several statements in this journal of Joseph declare, you know, here he says he's walking up and down. On with a scribe against the teaching or preaching of the plurality of wives and that Joseph forbids at, you know, entries like that and because Joseph was keeping a detailed account of where he was, it would it would be a good way to if somebody were to try to say, I know Joseph was with X, you know, person he can give himself an alibi, for example, based off of different journal entries, saying where he was at. And so, his journal was Intended to protect them from, you know, people who attempt to portray him as the specially. After the jhansi Bennett Scandal, he was wanted be very careful about the introduction of plural marriage. But the thing that really sells the evidence of Joseph, Smith's, plural, marriage, besides, we have the testimony of the Apostles, the, the, the, the tried, and trusted apostles who went on their missions, England, and came back. And You know, we're taught about the temple ordinances and Temple doctrines from Joseph Smith.

1:13:41 We have the testimony of the plural wives. We have the testimony of relatives of different plural, wives like the brothers or sisters, or or parents of different plural, wives giving their testimonies of their of these marriages. We have the Contemporary documents that exists. But beyond that, the thing that's most compelling to me is that you have our LDS Sources people who didn't follow Brigham Young Who give their testimony proving, you know, basically admitting that even though I didn't accept plural marriage. I know that Joseph Smith introduced it. Yeah, that that to me you. If you don't have a good explanation for those sources, you know you really aren't creating a whole you know, a complete history if you can't explain why men like William Marks. James White had privately admits to Joseph Smith introducing polygamy.

1:14:40 So that's interesting in his public Temple, lot case in the 1893 or 1892 James White and swears up and down that Joseph Smith, never taught polygamy which would be a compelling witness. He says, I was a scribe inaudible. I never heard of any woman being Joseph's wife except Emma. She was the only one I saw him acknowledge as a wife, but privately we have Him testifying to three different are odious leaders in private, that he knew that Joseph Smith taught plural marriage. He told Alexander Smith, Joseph Smith's son. He told ww Blair, who is another are? All Deus leader. He said, I know that he taught and practiced it in the Emma put wives hands into Joseph's hands.

1:15:26 And he told he told Joseph Smith, the third who, you know, Joseph, the third was the famous in his anti polygamy. Painting. He told him that I saw the original Revelation written, and William, Clayton, Ted writing, which and Joseph, the third's writing in his journal, which mother burned. So that's, you know, he that that's a pretty slam dunk. He said evidence in my opinion. Yeah. When you can get when you whenever you can get to rival sources, so to speak right here because let's face it, there wasn't A lot of hugging it out between, you know, Brigham's crew and and the are LDS, right?

1:16:12 So when when those two can agree that that happened, that carries a ton of weight. Right? That carries the kind of weight that's really hard to disprove. Yeah. And the thing is, if I had sources in the in the brig and night church, say if I had with some of the Apostles under Brigham, Young admitting privately, Hey, you know we say Joseph taught it but I'm not I don't actually remember ever seeing him Tana, teach it if those kinds of sources existed in the bring my tricks were you had private acknowledgements. You know, of the other side being correct, you know that would carry a ton of weight with me and with any other unbiased historian that you know you know that okay maybe we should trust Brigham Young.

1:16:59 If they're saying one thing publicly in a different thing in private, but the reality is the private. It emits the private journals in the Brigham and Brigida. Might Utah are very consistent with what is said, publicly Brigham Young kept, they kept tons of minutes. They were the record Keepers. That's you know, the funny thing is, a lot of people will try to critique Source. The saying you're using, you know, all these accounts of Joseph Smith sermons are coming from Brigham, Young followers. All the people who were keeping Joseph Smith sermons in Abu that, I am aware of ended up following Brigham Young. Like you know, right right. Again, it's one of those things where you know, absence of, you know, evidence on the other side doesn't necessarily equate truth especially if Brigham got a hundred percent of the people who kept those journals.

1:17:52 Went went with Brigham. Yeah, yeah. So so there's just tons of records that, you know, where, you know, we have to thank Brigham Young and, you know, Wilfred Woodruff and George A Smith and all these early Brethren who kept all the records that they did regarding you know, early church history regarding the na boot stuff that you know, when we look at the history of the church you know there isn't a whole lot of good records in the early history of the church and Joseph actually in a time or two complaints or says that it was negligent on them, did not keep his good. Records in the Nauvoo, period. The apostles are keeping all kinds of great records that, you know, they are trying to keep journals are trying to keep records of Joseph Smith sermons.

1:18:35 They were sitting at the map that the feet of the Prophet wanting to learn the Deep Mysteries of the Kingdom as he taught them as Brigham. Young actually said, I want to not only know what Joseph was teaching but I want to listen to him and learn what, he's not teaching the public. What what can I learn from the spirit as he withholding? Because the people are not yet, Able to receive it. And you know, that's going to get into another subject of, you know, that there were certain doctrines that were actually revealed, you know, the church members testified, they got the spirit teaching them principles in England, before Joseph taught them and in the united, when they got back to the United States, and you know, that's something that's used.

1:19:18 That's one of the strong arguments by the polygamy Skeptics or pulling me Dyers, but it's actually not very Be strong when you look at it in total context. So just to talk about two of the other strong Witnesses for our LDS witnesses, that Joseph Smith introduced plural marriage. We're going to talk about bullying marks first, and then, Ebenezer Robinson. William Marx said an investment in 1853. A lot of people try to say you're quoting him in the 1860s, you know, those are decades. Layer 1853 is less than 10 years after Joseph Smith's death And he's saying this because plural marriage has been announced and Utah and so he's having to respond to, you know, publicly.

1:20:02 So he's kind of admitting and responding to it as Proto our LDS individual, he had just been a part of strange search for a bit and he's part of a different sect for a bit then he's going to end up in the earliest church. But he wrote this during my Administration, the church, I saw and heard of many things that are practiced and taught the I do not believe to be of God. But But I continue to do and teach such principles as were plainly revealed as a lot of the church for. I thought that pure and holy principles only would have a tendency to benefit mankind therefore when the doctrine of polygamy was introduced into the church as a principle of exaltation, I took a decided stand against it, which stand rendered me. Quite unpopular with many of the leading ones in the church. I all I was also witnessed the introduction secretly of a kingly form of government in which Joseph suffered himself to be.

1:20:55 The king to Reign Over The House of Israel forever, which I could not conceive to be accordance with the laws of the church. But I did not oppose this move, thinking it, none of my business. So the very go. He's mentioning both the temple ordinances of being anointed king and a priest right there. He says, I'm not, I was like to ponder those things, but I also wasn't fond of the doctrine of polygamy which was introduced as a principle of exaltation. So he wasn't in the church under Brigham Young very long. He was He was out its by October or November of 1844. So are you guys say the Brigham Young introduced it? Know, he lime, he was very clear and others letters, he wrote that, he knew that Joseph Smith introduced, you know, plural, marriage. And in his opinion he tries to frame it in a narrative saying. I think that Joseph shortly before his death, repented of it and he came to me and told me we got to put this down and we got put people on trial for it.

1:21:55 And this is the story. He alleges you know, Brigham Young wasn't enough food when Joseph died. And so Brigham Young just has to frankly in his comments or response to that. He says, some people say that Joseph denied polygamy before he died, I don't know. But I don't believe he ever did. You know? He says I but I do know he was worn out with it is what Brigham Young said, but in Cotton but in contrast, John Taylor was there with Joseph at the time of his death. Death and John Henry Smith wrote a letter to Joseph Smith. The third saying those who are with Joseph, at the time of his death said they never knew of him to deny the principal and they knew that he said he was willing to die for that Revelation just as much as any other Revelation.

1:22:42 And so what William Marks, I don't want to paint him as a liar. But it is true that Joseph was making public denials, and it is possible that he tried to paint a public denial, you know, we aren't doing this, you know. We aren't doing this polygamy, you know, that he tried to frame that as Joseph repented of. It is kind of what how I would interpret, you know that statement. But the reality is, you know, there's no solid evidence to argue that he turning, you know, what kind of profit, you know, you introduce a Doctrine allegedly repents of it, but then there's no record, let you know, supporting William Marks in this in this regard and why would you put people on?

1:23:25 Trial, if you were the one who introduced it, right? That doesn't, that doesn't make sense, you know, the reality is a lot. One of the things that polygamy deniers will try to say is that Joseph was very voracious and active and putting polygamous on trial, and really punishing them in the novel, by counsel. The reality, is he really punished? The jhansi Bennett, those were involved with John. See, Bennett's whoredoms. Those people are punished because that wasn't close. Carriage that was whoredoms under the, you know, trying to basically just sleeping around under the, under the same term spiritual y40, you know, they were they were abusing, you know what John Taylor said is that, that John see Bennett learned a little bit about plural marriage and he abused, the principles that he learned about for his own lustful conduct, you know, and he's going to be damned for it.

1:24:22 I had Kimberly Smith on here. Not not more. In a about a three weeks ago. So when I release her episode and in Joseph, in the one sermon where, where people really like to hang their hat that you know, Joseph was really against polygamy and plural, marriage and blah blah blah. They go back to one statement out of one sermon and in there. He uses the term spiritual. Why furry Rather than plural marriage because in that time, what jhansi Bennett was doing was sleeping around and calling it spiritual why furry?

1:25:07 So we have to understand that during that time period, those two terms plural. Marriage and spiritual why furry are not interchangeable. Those are two separate Acts. So I agree with you and point mom, you push back a little bit on that point. Okay, why are my point? I agree that the May 26 1844 sermon that Joseph is saying he's being accused of adultery. He saying this, holy prophet is saying that I admitted to him that I'm guilty of adultery. Joseph, you know, this is a big thing that comes up with Oliver cowdery where, you know, all of our Calgary is saying that Joseph had. You know, it was accusing him of adultery and Joe. Owes us.

1:25:52 Big thing is saying, I was not guilty of adultery and I never admitted that I was guilty of adultery, Joseph was doing what God commanded him. There's a big difference between authorized plural, marriage and adultery so I absolutely agree that that is what Joseph is fighting back against this William laws, trying to say he's an adulterer and Joseph's like, no, I'm not an adulterer spiritual, why free? And my opinion, John Taylor made a statement saying we called it in the beginning, spiritual why furry. But what I think, And is because, John C Bennett use the same term to describe what he was doing. They had to move away from that, and that's when I think they really start, they drop that term mostly and they started just saying select, I see. Okay, so yeah, there's a cool Source. Lemon.

1:26:39 White sun is a third party. With the third hand, witness, he actually became a polygamous. Like his dad in Texas, and then later on he actually reads, he joined the Utah church but he basically is a third and witness that he was a young man in Nauvoo and he was going to, I think Flora Woodworth. He was saying that he was taking interest in this girly, just got home from a mission. He was taking interest and he found out from her mother that she had been sealed as a wife to Joseph Smith. And so then, you know, he was kind of told me, you know, you know, that you're not to take interest in her but he basically said the girls that were Joseph's wives called each other spirituals, so that's another kind of witness, besides John. You learned that the authorized wives at time. So they move on.

1:27:26 They move away from the term because it got corrupted by John C Bennett. Yep. Absolutely, this out, that sounds. I definitely see it. So, the big thing in my opinion comes down to the legitimacy of DNC. 132, you know, that is the big kicker of whether or not Joseph Smith introduced plural marriage and for me, argue against it is to argue against a mountain of evidence as Not tall as Mount Everest in my opinion because you're just trusting Brigham Young William, Clayton Joseph, Kingsbury Joseph King. So when Clayton made the original copy, he said and what Joseph Kingsbury made the copy of it for Newell King Whitney, which was preserved, because I'm a burned the original right. Hmm.

1:28:11 You you also have William Marks who didn't accept plural marriage admit that. Yes I know that Hiram, read the Revelation to the High Council on polygamy. You Leonardo's. So be you didn't follow Brigham Young say, yes. I know that that Revelation was that's in the the Doctrine and Covenants of the said church. Now that is, as far as I remember the exact same Revelation that hiring read to us and Leonardo be like he didn't follow Brigham Young. He followed Sidney Rigdon and so he's another different. Heard hand witness to DNC. 132, you have Austin tells as a, in the expository.

1:28:52 Either gives a very detailed statement, as does William law and Jane law and those are all affidavits they made in May of 1844, which are in Joseph, Smith's lifetime, that describe DNC, 132 and then not only that, you have five different, High council members who came to Utah members of the Nabu High Council. Say yes, we were in the High Council and hiring did read the Revelation which was given on July 12th. 1843 to us in the High Council and we Today, but there were three men who didn't accept it. They were William Marks, Austin cows and Leonardo be. And so the fact that you not only have the five living Utah Witnesses, testifying of it, and five living High Council Members. Plus other, you tell Witnesses.

1:29:42 Plus the, the all three who didn't follow Brigham Young, it's absolutely overwhelming. That this revelation Came to Joe's, you know, that hot and and they always tie it to the higher is what they say, you know, Hiram is the one who really? I think that personally, what? Cause polygamy to almost get out of the bag, so, to speak and novel where it was almost an Open Secret was after hiring was converted. He basically thought, I thought, if I can get converted, I think anyone on Earth can get converted so higher and reads it to the Nauvoo High Council. He reads it to the elders Quorum, you know, he's Even it, he's reading it. These teaching it to everyone, he can, you know, to try to you know, that that's Hiram before you. Yeah, I was gonna say when you read the accounts, you get to feeling Hiram was on fire, right? Hiram was was definitely out there saying God just spoken yet again, look at this and and he he really went, he really went for preaching that Doctrine.

1:30:48 Yeah, he went maybe exact 180 from where he was before because he was so against it that Levi, Richards, records in his sermon, a May 1843 sermon the Hiram gave where he said, if an angel where to appear to you and try to teach you this principle, you'd be sure to see his is black and tail. And his cloven foot basically, you know, you know it was actually an Angel of Darkness, you know, got it, God would never Never do, this is what he said, but then bring them young gives leaked out of Harm's conversion, only a week or two later and William. Clayton records, his diary about Hiram is laying a trap for the Brethren of the secret priesthood. Those who'd been initiated plural marriage. He's giving a heads up.

1:31:34 I think I'm 8 May 2013 43 by Heber C Kimball but then four days three or four days later on May 27th. He set he records. President Joseph. Eating with the twelve well mean with Judge Adams and certain other Brethren Hiram accepted the doctrine of the priesthood. So there's this big period that Joseph between 1842 and 1843 really does not have the anointed corm where he's interested. So Joseph and 1842 begins to introduce the endowment ordinance but he doesn't introduce plural marriage alongside it at the same time.

1:32:16 It's kind of Of plural marriage is being taught privately and you know, an individual settings. The endowment he first gives it to three Apostles, Brigham Young Heber C, Kimball and Willard Richards to the bolt Bishops. No. Okay. Whitney and George Miller, William Marks, William law, and James Adams, and higher cement. So it so you have kind of nine men who are in doubt on May, 4th 18 May Fourth and fifth 1842. And Joseph is first revealing the endowment ceremony and Brigham Young says that Joseph was absolutely depressed trying to do corn meetings with those guys in he said, Joseph absolutely did not want to go with.

1:33:02 He said Hyrum Smith you know would be saying things against it and he said William law would say you know in what he said William lost said and one of those councils that if an angel of the Lord appeared to him and said that, you know, if you try I did teach him polygamy, he would try to kill him, you know. So so so Joseph was absolutely depressed because he's trying to introduce these people to the full the doctrines pertain to the fullness of the priesthood. And William Marks is accept it. William law and Hiram are kind of being in strong opposition but when higher makes subset in 1843, Joseph actually goes and reconvenes the corm and he re endows everyone.

1:33:46 He gives them Endowments again, just to kind of celebrate that that Hiram accept this Doctrine. And then for those who accepted the doctor in plural, marriage Joseph, then administered, the Eternal Marriage ceilings to their first wives. And so Hyrum Smith was sealed to both his living wife and his deceased wife, Brigham Young, you know, all these men, you know, ceilings had been introduced privately for plural, marriages, but this is, when you're finally getting like monogamous marriage. Judges being sealed right this time right after higher Mix-Ups, formal marriage and what's fascinating is Hyrum Smith. Himself gives an account of he.

1:34:30 He he actually teaches announces the doctrine of Eternal Marriage at the April 18 44 General Conference. He he's like he's like I'm going to talk about Plural marriage at this conference, not plural marriage, Eternal Marriage. But the same time he announces Eternal polygamy and he says that Joseph seals him to both his lip. Seal them to both his living wife and his deceased wife. He said, quote, I married me a wife and I'm the only man that has any right to her. We had five children, the Covenant was made for our lives. She fell into the grave before God showed us his order. God has shown me that the Covenant is dead and had no more Force.

1:35:12 Neither could I have her in the resurrection? Action, but we should be as Angels. It troubled me Brother. Joseph said, you can have her steal to you upon the same principle. You can be baptized for the dead, I enquired. What can I do for my second wife? He replied. You can also make a covenant with her for eternity and have her sealed you by the authority of the priesthood. I name the subject to my present wife and she said I will act as proxy for your wife does dead and I will be sealed to you for a charity myself for. I never had any other husband, I love you and do not want to be separated from you nor to be forever alone in the world. To come. Is there any man that has no more sense that would? And we'll make it base story of such a fact, his name shall be published, well, honest, man, or woman can find fault with such a doctor.

1:35:54 This none, it is not a Doctrine to be preached to the world, but to the Saints who have obeyed, the gospel and gathered design. It is Glad Tidings of great door. Great, joy, the Lord has given Joseph, the power of seal on Earth and in heaven, those are found worthy. Having the spirit of Elijah and Elias. He has power to seal with a seal that shall never be broken. And it shall be enforced in the morning of the Resurrection. Talk about spiritual wives one, that is dead. And gone is spiritual week, will come up in the morning of the resurrection and every soul that is saved live. An eternal increase of Glory, will you believe this the congregation give loud shout to the day. So you know that's clearly establishing that Eternal polygamy was doctrinal. And that at that conference a play saying don't teach this. The world is what he's saying.

1:36:44 And he says and part of it, he does have a statement condemning Earthly, you know, he's warning its Earthly practicing polygamy but that is in the context he says, if anyone finds out you will end up in a cell and Alton you won't go to you, you will end up in prison if you, you know, if they find out. And so there was this very real threat that if people discovered, you know, if they could prove it Beyond any doubt that these guys were practicing plural marriage, they undoubtedly would have Been thrown in prison. In fact, Joseph Smith's brother, William Smith. He ironically one side of his mouth is condemning Brigham Young for teaching and the other Apostles for teaching pulling me out of the other side. He is privately trying to practice polygamy himself both in Nauvoo then when he was briefly. So see with James string and then we tried to start his own church after in 1848 or 18-49.

1:37:41 He his church ends up breaking up because of him trying to teach plural marriage in secret while condemning it publicly and then his wife actually divorces him and Susan for a divorce with the evidence. She had him teaching it and then he actually served some time in jail for practicing plural marriage. So it's 44 doing trying to do that among his, so it was a very real threat and is Orson Hyde said, if they knew in Illinois that we had more than one wife, when we were living there, they would have broken us up. Faster than they ever did. And the reality is I think Kimberly mentioned this on your podcast with.

1:38:21 Eric Joseph wasn't just representing himself, you know, he was not and not just the saint but he was the mayor of the largest city in Illinois that time that, you know, Nabu was just the Saints gathered, and novel were just as large of a population. If not large, it was actually larger than Chicago, if I'm not mistaken and so, That would have brought havoc on the church. If it was publicized and and they probably would have never gotten the Temple completed if Joseph had tried to do plural marriage publicly, they would have gotten kicked out of Nauvoo faster than you can blink an eye. Yeah, no, you know, it's one of the things that the critics will point to is that, you know, we don't hear about plural marriage or Adam God, Doctrine or name.

1:39:13 Name your Our doctrine that that Brigham talked about when he was out west. Well, there's a real good reason why right? People were ready to kill Joseph Smith for simply revealing new scripture. Now, can you imagine how how bloodthirsty, those same people would have been, if, by the way, we're telling you, what the true nature of God is here with Adam God and to top it all off, we're going to upset your Victorian standards. Birds with this idea of plural marriage. They would have hung him so quickly, right? So it's no wonder that, it's not until Brigham is outside the United States in a mountainous Fortress of the Rockies, where he feels like he's empowered enough and safe enough where he can let this out publicly. So when people say, well, we just don't hear it as much back then and I'm like, well, no kidding. Your look at the in which Joseph is living, you got to be careful who you pass that along to Yeah, absolutely. And that is part dick sources.

1:40:25 Dating back to 1840 to say that was part of the reason Joseph Smith was wanting to do the call. And I do those colonizing missions where he was saying, we need to eventually have some gathering places in the Rocky Mountains and Out West. They're saying people were connecting that part of the reason was for this was so that plural marriage could be lived in a situation without the persecution that was come. You know, that would come upon trying to live it among You know Gentiles in the United States and you know Joseph Lucy Walker recalled, Joseph saying that I can't live with you openly as a wife now but when the time comes in the Rocky Mountains, then I can openly acknowledge you as my wife and so the secrecy was only intended to be temporary.

1:41:10 You know. And that's that's also why they I believe they didn't have any children in Abu not until they knew that they were going to be driven from now. But once they they knew that you know, their time there was very limited Then, you know, that is, when I think they started to say, okay, we can, you know, we don't have to worry about keeping this secret. Any longer, you know, is, right? Brigham and Rick, some of the Reagan said, some of the Apostles will deny this, you know, publicly in the Eastern places places. I never deny it, I just acknowledge I say, you know, God has given me my wives and they will be at, you know, and God will honor them as my wife. So, you know, regardless of what anyone else says So Brigham Young had too much, he had a very bold personality and he was, you know, absolutely the right person to take all these doctrines that were controversial and that work you know that Joseph knew would cause persecution and hardship on the Saints and Brigham weathered that storm and was willing to establish them, come hell or high water.

1:42:10 So yeah, absolutely. It's what one thing that I would like to mention. There's a great paper by Christopher Blythe talking about plural marriage and other That broke off from Nava Mormonism. Even Joseph, the third admitted that most of the different groups had at some period, some form of plural marriage from all and so alpheus Cutler briefly did plural marriage but he abandoned it very quickly, Lyman white did, but lime and white actually, according to Gideon Carter because they start to get some persecution for it Lyman, white withdrew, the principal, and basic, because there were some internal conflicts over, and there are some external Russian that black-and-white said, it's a true and holy principal. Just the world isn't ready for it. He said they still lived with their wives when they just didn't teach it anymore.

1:42:59 And so you know that's why Brigham Young. I said it's a good thing. We came out to Utah, Lyman White made people think that Joseph would have wanted the whole church. You go to Texas if we would have gone to Texas we would have already been driven from their by now this is what is what what Brigham Young said so oh there's so many sources, you know you want this I want to say one other thing and that is when you look at the data and the history From a truly. From a place of truly, wanting to get to the truth. I think the evidence is just overwhelming that plural, marriage started, with Joseph Smith, right? They like to say things like, well, Joseph didn't, you know, Joseph didn't receive a revelation that would become DNC. 132, the problem with that is that you have Hiram reading that revelation Right.

1:44:03 You you have over and you probably have over a dozen people who are credible Witnesses admitting that it was red and it is such a profound doctrine of that time. That as you were just stating damn near every offshoot from the Brigham might church is practicing plural marriage at one point or another. We know that string. Did we know that White's group did Certainly Brigham did. That's not a secret as you were saying, William Smith, William Smith, I mean if you just look at at that, It's hard to make the case that. No, no, this is something Brigham made up. Well that doesn't hold water because for a large portion of that teaching Brigham, if I'm not mistaken as either an England or the eastern states Mission doing missionary work. Why Joseph is revealing a lot of this. So, yep.

1:45:06 So either Brigham's, really good about getting back and forth in 17th century, America from the East to the Midwest. to lay these foundations or maybe the narratives correct that this came from Joseph Smith. Amen. So the next thing I think that would be a good point to cover. Are you recording it? Yeah we're recording. Okay, perfect. So the next thing that I think would be a good point to cover is to steal man our are you know just to try to come up with the strongest Arguments for the other side of the issue because I'd be a hypocrite if I'm criticizing them for not engaging, the strongest points against their position and not do it myself.

1:45:57 And so I am always looking for the strongest points and so one of the points Try to stay regarding the women, testifying to being sealed. The Joseph is these were adoption ceilings, not marriage ceiling. Since the month with the most common thing when they see the overwhelming evidence of ceilings and they say lots of men. They said men and women were both sealed the Joseph Smith but the reality with that is we don't have any evidence of any adoption ceilings being performed in Joseph, Smith's lifetime, I've strongly believe the law of adoption started with Joseph Smith because we have testimony from many different Brethren and Utah that Joseph Smith revealed the principal about the ceiling principles.

1:46:43 But the reality is, you know, Brigham Young said, the law of adoption could only be done in a temple, everything else he was willing to do outside of a temple but he said lava adoption and ordinance work for the dead. The basics is like endowments and second anointing for the dead where where he draws lines, they Those must wait until we get another temple built and so that's I believe that even though that's why Joe's even though, Joseph, very likely taught adoption and part of the reason I believe, Joseph adoption is lime and white was doing adoptions in Texas. So at Brigham Young has a lot of adoption and Utah and lime and white as it in Texas. That's compelling evidence that it came from Joseph.

1:47:26 The reason that Joseph didn't do it is because he was waiting for the temple to be Added and in fact, when you look at the Nauvoo Temple Revelation, DNC 124, it's very clear that, you know, the fullness, the ordinances pertaining to the fullness of the priesthood. We're supposed to wait until a temple was completed, you know, it says that multiple times throughout that Revelation and it took special Revelation for Joseph 3. Authorized to say, give endowments outside of the temple to give s anointings outside the temple that he received special Revelation to perform those Ordinances because the Lord said, you're probably not going to live to see the temple completed.

1:48:07 So I am authorizing you to give these by permission even though, you know, they will have all ordinance work done outside of a temple will have to be ratified in a temple is what was taught. So the adoption serum ceiling theory is something that you might see another theory is that this is only intended for eternity. Only is the big thing that's it. Common theory personally I think that Ville like the late Kimball letter, we read about Sara Lee getting pregnant and was tickled pink about it. That seems to be pretty compelling evidence in and of itself that this was not meant to be right. Only even though that's Joseph 2/3. Concession was you would concede maybe women were sealed for an eternity.

1:48:53 Say only was was what he said but another strong piece of evidence Against The Eternity. Only theory is Ebenezer Robinson. Who gave he was another. Our LDS church member, he gave his testimony, both publicly and first, I think he first privately is our oldest church member. He gave his testimony to several different people. But later publicly he came out and said you taught didn't start all this stuff. He later came out and did a magazine called the return which he's going over. His experience in Nauvoo.

1:49:34 Explain, I know that a lot of these secret things that you toss doing from the temple ordinances the endowment ceremony to the the plural marriage. I know this all started when Joseph Smith, but anyhow, here's a letter, he wrote to Joseph Smith, the third you said higher Smith taught me, the doctrine and told me and my first wife that he heard the voice of the lord giveth the Revelation on polygamy, on spiritual urgings to his brother, Joseph your father and that which he hire mad heretofore opposed the doctrine. He was wrong in his brother, Joseph was right all the time, having a perfect, personal knowledge of these facts together with many others. I have not stated a denial of them. Sounds to me like a great lie. I am sorry to say so, but we cannot undo the past our heavenly father knows, all things were beforehand. We stand and Jesus tells us that all things are written by the father, that every secret thing shall be revealed. And that, which is whispered in the air shall be published on the housetops and then later on.

1:50:29 He said, so in a different letter this is a Allure to Jason bricks, he said so he said he's doing question and answers. Jason Briggs. That's how did hires her teach you to practice polygamy and keep it hid in. 1843, answer, he instructed me to take a selection of some young woman and he would steal her to me and I should take her home. And if she should have Offspring give out word, that she had a husband and Elder who had gone on a foreign Mission. He says, and we were told there was a place, a few miles out from um Nauvoo where females were sent for the purpose of, if they Where to hide polygamists purse.

1:51:11 So that shows that this wasn't an eternity, only thing. If he's saying that hire him saying, don't worry, you know, if she gets pregnant, you know, if she gets pregnant, we will just say she has an elder on a mission and then he also remembered that they were told there was a place away a few miles away from 12 or 18 miles from Naboo we're polygamists. Births could be kept secret, you know to go for a time if it was a controversy. And so and William Clay and similarly recalled you know in his journal he that is plural wife. She got pregnant. She was one of the first pregnancies and plural marriage and he actually had both Joseph and Emma, give him counsel regarding it and Joseph said, don't worry, just broke it.

1:51:55 And if people find out and make a fuss, then I will cut you off from the church, but then re-baptized you and set you ahead as good as ever. So well, That, that's a pretty, you know, telling statement right there. The fact as a fundamentalist that shows that this Doctrine, which was originally introduced in private and not yet, given to the total church yet, it was a doctrine of the priesthood and even if William Smith is, excuse me, William play in was cut off from the church. His standing in the priesthood would have still just been as valid, you know, as John Taylor and many other statements say that you can't be cut off.

1:52:37 You know, you. No man can lose his priesthood except through transgression so it doesn't matter if you're cut off from the church, it matters whether you are actually being immoral or not, right? Right. So that kind of addresses the first point adoption ceilings and the other big thing I would say is no other no other group ever attempted to say that these were adoption ceilings. Like if that were the case, why didn't William William Marks would have been opposed to it. You know, you wouldn't have all these different people who are saying yes, he taught it, sadly taught it. If it was just add option, feelings, Emma, or want someone would have clarified that and said, hey, those, you People are twisting something into being something that it wasn't. Yes, women were adopted spiritually but it wasn't for any life situation.

1:53:31 You know, she doesn't say she actually explicitly denies even that the eternity only she says not as a lit, not as a real wife or even a spiritual life, nothing of the sort happened in her are LDS denial. So she didn't leave open this, you know, it's unfortunate that She did make the denial, she did under the influence of her son, Joseph third. So clearly the adoption ceilings not pulling me doesn't hold a whole lot of water as an argument but that is one that they try to mention the I think we already covered pretty good. The lack of pregnancies from Joseph and Hyrum my strong impression with that is the church leaders were, especially careful because they knew the eyes were on them that you know, They didn't, they were not planning to have any children with their plural wives until they could get Colony out west.

1:54:27 Right? Could, you know, without it causing a problem. The people who did have pregnancies in Abu so you say William Clayton, Joseph Kingsbury, they're plural wives maybe even if Ebenezer Robinson would have accepted pulling me maybe he might have but you didn't exactly give me. So these are just lay members who are being introduced to plural marriage. Judge lay members aren't going to have the eyes on them. That say, the eyes are all on Joseph and say, all right? Yeah, so I think leaders were very deliberate to avoid having it cause problems for the church at large if that makes sense.

1:55:08 No, absolutely. I mean, a late a normal. I don't want to see run-of-the-mill but a lay member is going to have a lot less eyes on him than say, Joseph or Hiram or Brigham. Or any of the other, you know, major leaders of that time. Yeah. So the next thing I want to cover is the allegation of polygamy actually started in England where it was revealed in English because that's a very common one. That is gotten a lot more popular than a lot more water been put or wait be put to this argument because Brigham Young several times made comments about this. He said while we were in England the Lord made manifest to me by visions and is Spirit things that I did.

1:55:52 Not then understand I never opened my mouth. Any person could Stirring them until I return to Nabu Joseph and never mentioned this. There'd never been a thought of it in the church, that I knew anything about that time, but this I had for myself and I kept it to myself if I returned home, Joseph revealed these things to him. I then understood the reflections that were upon my mind while in England, but then he goes on and he tells Joseph and he looks around, and looks me in the eyes and says, brother, Brigham, are you in? Are you in Earnest? Are you speaking? What you understand? Are you in Earnest? Says, all right, I speak just as a spirit manifests to me. Says he God bless you, the Lord has opened your mind and he turned and went off. So he said that was his first conversation right?

1:56:34 Well with Joseph. And so some trying to say that isn't that weird? That say Brigham Young would get the Rev would get a revelation before Joseph taught him. Doesn't that sound like a odd story. So the reality is everyone in the church, is able to get Revelations. You know, it's not just, you know, it never was taught in early Mormonism that Just the profit is the only one that state Revelation. He's the only one that's to reveal new doctrine for the church but all the members are you in order to be a faithful member, you need to be getting Revelations for yourself to guide you from the whole from Holy Ghost and so Brigham, Young actually tells a story, that's funny kind of funny.

1:57:16 He says he got a revelation before Joe. So I'm in science camp and they're marching to Missouri playing to reclaim Zion, right? He says he got Revelation 2 or 3 days before. Joseph, that they weren't going to actually fight the Lord had accepted their labors and he tells a couple people that he got this Revelation. And then finally, Joseph tells the whole camp that he, you know, the Rev Lord wasn't going to require them to fight and that the Lord had just accepted accepted their labors. And barium said he was actually ashamed. That even though he got a revelation that he would name it before, Joseph had named it and he said, I learned my lesson that time that, you know, if the Lord reveals things to you You you need to keep them to yourself unless the Lord commands you otherwise, you know, you know, there's this confidentiality and that's something Joseph really emphasize too. If you remember a novel where he said that you know the Lord will not reveal his secrets to US unless we are capable of keeping his Secrets.

1:58:14 Yep. So I think this also points out just why Brigham Young was the one to whom the mantle fell, right? Because on several occasions. As you so eloquently eloquently pointed out, Brigham is receiving. The sink, the same, kind of Revelations, Joseph is right. And Joseph is simply backing up, what, what, what what Brigham has felt do, Brigham is kept it to himself for them for the most part, right? And so I think this is also a testimony builder of just how NSYNC Brigham was with the spirit and with the Lord, because he was capable of receiving the same things.

1:59:01 Joseph was Yeah, so, Brigham Young, this is at well-known, but bringing me. I actually had the doctrine of exaltation revealed to him in England. A lot of people remember, Lorenzo Snow saying that in England, he got it revealed. As man is God wants was and Scott is man, may become and Lorenzo said it was actually partially revealed to him earlier by a patriarchal, Blessing by Joseph Smith Senior in Kirtland where he said you will be as you know, his greatest god is is what you know if you are faithful Had you know that that kind of open his mind to it but Graham had the exact same Revelation in England. He said while on a mission to England, the following came forcibly to my mind as God was. So we are now in as he is now.

1:59:47 So we shall be, our father was born, a parents, having a father, the and mother there just the same as we have and there's several other statements of you know, of him talking about that. But what's interesting is we know that might sound odd also But we actually have documented proof that the doctrine of baptism for the dead actually originated in England, among the English converts in that a woman named and Booth had a vision in England, about salvation for the dead that the gospel is being preached to the spirit world. And in this Vision, she was shown that the baptism was being offered to the spirits in the spirit world and the circulated in England. And Joseph Got Back.

2:00:33 Set my letter back to the United States. And Joseph, Joseph gets her that vision and says, yes, that's a correct vision and she said, there's something incorrect and that she was thinking that maybe baptism was offered that they were performing baptisms in the spirit world, he says, but that was it. That was just a misunderstanding that wasn't you know the vision was impressing upon her mind, the necessity of baptism. And so that's where the first inklings of baptism originated. Was actually from England and so Brigham Young also comment on baptism for the dead saying, the doctor baptism for the dead. You've been taught for sometime in the first account that I heard of it. While I was in England, it was there that I got the Glad Tidings that the living to go forth and be baptized for those that have fallen asleep. Obviously, that practice it in England. They did.

2:01:21 It was until they came back to the United States. And Joseph kind of you know Joseph laid out in the procedure to perform that ordinance. But you know that there's precedents for Revelation in England on on these different doctrines. And in my mind, this all makes sense because a quote to quote, a quote, by John Taylor that I actually just recently read, he said, I remember on a certification, in Liverpool in England. We were told not to say anything about the doctrine of the Gathering. A lady came to me and said, she had a singular Dream. I Dreamed, she said that with a whole church was going off to America and that you were there and we were going to board a ship and leave for America.

2:02:02 And he goes, what was the reason of her having this dream? She had embraced the gospel and it revealed certain things to her that she could not have known in any other way. Your old men shall dream dreams Etc. Can you keep people and the dark and relation to these things know? And when a people live, their religion and all the corners of the church are walking up to their privileges, the certain ancient aphorism would be correct. The voice of the people is the voice of God, in the voice of the god, is the voice of the people and it would suit either way. So, it's As we said that they were for a brief time in England, they weren't talking about the doctor and Gathering, but members of members had a dream about it, anyway, being a principal. So and Brigham Young and the Council of 50 when they're discussing the issue of keeping things confidential in the Council of 50 and of you, this is after Joseph's death. He says the problem of having the Saints knowing what is going on this Council quote, the whole church knows what we are doing the It dictates it to them and you can't shut it out from them. So, you know, the saints that are living, their religion are going to get Revelations from the spirit, you know, keeping them in the loop of what's going on and what they need to know for their salvation and you have similar things with plural. Marriage, like Bishop Abraham's hunsaker said he heard whispers about plural marriage being taught in Abu and it troubled him until he and he prayed to the Lord earnestly to get a vision for Self.

2:03:33 And that's when he had a glorious angel or actually a god appeared to him, it might have even been Christ, you know, he doesn't specify and tell him that, you know, you will not inherit the glory. I have unless you have, you know, the counselors that I have and he appeared with his wives alongside him. So, you know, that's that, you know, to me the argument in English that people were getting Revelations on it and England doesn't bother me at all because that just shows that the The saints were living up to their Privileges and getting Revelations from the Lord. Yeah. Last sorry. No, you go ahead. I was going to say it's interesting because we see this even sometimes with inventions or technology, right? Oftentimes Men will have the same idea about the same thing simultaneously and it's not till they all do. Yeah.

2:04:33 And it's not until they all come together that they come with their various parts and pieces to put it all together. So, this, this isn't unusual. And, and I've said this before about Mormonism, if we're not having an encounter with a the Divine, whether that is a manifestation of the spirit, whether Is miraculous blessings. Whatever the case is, if we're not having those, I don't think we're doing Mormonism, quite right. Yep. Right, I think that and I think that's one of the things that's promised to us and it's definitely a sense that you get from Joseph. A lot of times is I had my experience with God and you can too, this is what we got to do, right? And so, yeah, if we're not having those, I don't think we're doing Mormonism, quite, right? I'm not saying it's going to be that kind of spiritual high all the time.

2:05:28 But we should certainly be living in such a way that we can expect those kind of blessings. Yeah. So there are statements that indicate are all Ds L privately, new. We talked about some of the members telling leaders but there's other statements by like Joseph, the third privately acknowledging that he knew that plural marriage started with his father, in a letter to William Smith. He said he wrote this and now the check this quote out, I have long been engaged in removing from Father's memory and from the early church, the stigma and blame thrown upon them because of polygamy and I have at last lived to see the cloud rapidly lifting.

2:06:17 And I would not consent to see a blame attached by a blender now. Therefore, my Uncle Bear in mind or standing today, before the world as Defenders of Mormonism, free from polygamy and go ahead with your personal ins of Joseph and Hyrum. So he's saying, I've worked really hard to get rid of the stain of polygamy from off of my father's name and I will not consent to a blender now, uncle William. So he privately, acknowledged it and there are other, you know. Jason Briggs is another Arnold. Yes. Leader he got to hear. He got to hear John Diehl.

2:06:58 He's kind of confessions when either he heard. In person or he got a copy after they'd been written, where John Bailey is pissed off at Brigham, but he's still saying that. I know that polygamy started with Joe Schmidt. I learned about how to, in Joseph, Smith's lifetime, from Joseph Smith itself and so Jason Briggs writes, dear brothers. How do you like hearing the statement of lead? The danites and polygamy. Our institutions of the first Joseph, the Martyr and view, the accumulating evidence of human infirmity attaching to the choice here as well as all other Sears it isn't, is it? Not Folly to attempt to reinstate the defunct notion of infallibility of prophets, Etc. So, you know, he's acknowledging.

2:07:40 Yeah, I think that there's some pretty compelling evidence and similarly David Whitmer, who, again did join our earliest church. He was actually his own independent, you start, you know, he's just stuck as an independent kind of witness and the Book of Mormon and was kind of skeptical and antagonistic. Stick to the later teachings of Joseph Smith, Beyond The Book of Mormon, but he wrote this in 1887, I now have as much evidence to believe that Brother Joseph received the Revelation on polygamy and gave it to the church. As I have to believe that such a man as George Washington ever lived. I never saw George Washington but from reliable testimony.

2:08:22 I believe that he did Lent so he says, I am as certain as the Joseph Smith did polygamy as George Washington lived. And he actually he says, if you accept the Doctrine and Covenants the Doctrine and Covenants promises says that you are need to receive the word of God through Joseph Smith. And so he says, if you accept the doctor and Covenants, you have to accept that the plural marriage Revelation that he received is what he said. So, David Whitmer is against the doctor and come this by that time. But he makes a good point that, you know, pointing out the verse in the DNC about how the word of God is going to. Come to the church through Joseph on further matters of Doctrine. So, you know, it's just overwhelming. So the last issue that we need to touch on is the denials purple, probably touch a little bit on the history and getting into the denials, but Joseph and higher made some very strong denials.

2:09:25 Do you plural marriage? Well, telling people not to practice it and so hiring. For example said, I wish the Elders of Israel to understand that is lawful for a man to marry his wife. It is unlawful to have more and God is Not commanded anyone to have more. If any of you dare to presume to do such a thing, it will spoil your fun for you will, never preach the gospel. This is the same sternum where he announces Eternal Marriage and eternal polygamy. So, I consider this the polygamy, deniers dilemma, because I really like this part of the sermon. They don't like the Eternal Marriage and eternal poignant part. But as a Historian, I have to accept the whole sermon and I have to account for the whole sermon.

2:10:05 So he says, I despise a man who will teach a pack of stood up that will disgrace himself. So, for a man to go into the world and talk at the spiritual life system. Analysis, empty is an open Sepulchre at the code suits. Anyone lend put it on, let it, let him put it into, I would call the devil my brother before. Such a man, I believe if a man has one wife in this life, I know if he I had to, I should not know what to do. Might quarrel about me and I might get whipping. One is not warn, all of you, not to attempt it, the man should begin to find out. You would you would end up in some cell and Alton, get the wife that God and your country. We gave you let you have if any brother hears any person preach such stuff ring his nose. Look out where he might be stouter than you know man would have more than one wife or they will beat him and if I was a woman and got so full, I would hide it as head, I give the sister sleep to ring.

2:11:01 His nose who teaches such stuff so that they say that's not a carefully worded denial, that is, you know, he's either being a blatant, hypocrite or command a complete liar, or he's telling the truth is what their perspective on that quotas. My perspective on this quote is the need for proper authorization to enter into plural marriage because they did not want to see it abused. And they were horrified at what John C Bennett was doing with his whoredoms where they were sleeping around with women taking away virtue, married and unmarried women, you know, just, you know, de bought a pack of debauchery and that's unfortunately what plural marriage can be abused in. And that is why Brigham Young said, the abuse of that principle will send thousands to hell. You know, that there are people who are going to turn around an absolutely abuse and misuse the principle of plural marriage. And so, my opinion is, the only people who are the only person who is authorized in Joseph, Smith's lifetime, to introduce people to polygamy.

2:12:15 Was people that Joseph, authorized, it was only to be He taught by Joseph's consent. And Joseph would occasionally authorize other people to cheat you as well. You know like we have been drift Johnson says Joseph told him to teach it to his sister so that she you know that so that she can know it and Joseph get proposed to her to pro-marriage to her. And obviously Brigham was somebody who was also one of the early dogs and plural marriage, and he was one of the few people that Joseph authorized to perform all the different Temple ordinances. So There are certain people that Joseph did authorize but generally to the elders in general, that this was something that was not to be passed out lightly.

2:12:57 And it was only to come through the legitimate channel of the priesthood. And there are two principles that touched upon this. One of them is in the endowment. There's a cup of the Covenant of Chastity revealed in the endowment, which Brigham Young publicly taught said in one of the Journal of discourses sermons. So I'm not afraid to quote it, I will Will not, you know, that you are not to touch a daughter of Adam unless given to you by the Lord and that Covenant goes back to Joseph Smith, you know, and and and John C Bennett and his Expos�� of the Holy order, mentions that Covenant, almost word for word. And and says that Joseph was regulating the marital practices of those who entered into his Society.

2:13:44 So everyone who and who got endowed, made that Covenant And receiving it from the Lord was understood and Joseph Smith's. Life time was that you needed to receive it from the Lord through Joseph Smith, as the authorized agent, to introduce the pretty, to keep this principle from being misused and abused. And so in every order of priesthood there was a government that Joseph established and the erotic priesthood, there is a presiding Bishop who presides over the ironic priesthood. In the middle Kazakh priesthood in the church, there was The, you know, the presiding high priest, the who stands as the president of the priesthood, prison of the church and in the fullness of the Presa, that Joseph Smith began to introduce an Abu of Kings.

2:14:32 And Priests there was a presiding keyholder that Joseph. Introducing Joseph was the person who presided in those keys and so chose of confirmed, the keys on others, but they were to exercise them in Union with Joseph Smith right now that that was the the channel of She was was through Joseph Smith. And so it's in that context that you get the denials like the most famous one, they cite this as an example of a change to the history of the church Thursday, October 5th. 1843 at home, locked up down the street with my scribe and gave instruction to try those who are preaching teaching or practicing practicing is crossed out the doctrine of the plurality of wives on this La, Joseph, forbids, it and the practice, they're of no man shall I'll have, but one wife and so that's statement that people really like to quote and say the apostles, totally changed this in the history.

2:15:29 And, you know, they try to say it's evidence of Joseph's Journal being altered, but they did not alter the original entry in Joseph's Journal. We still have the original entry, they edit it, and it and expanded it for publication, so that people would understand the principles behind Joseph Smith saying what he did on that casian. So in the History, they expanded it to say evening at home and walked up and down the street with my scribe. Gave instruction to try those purchases persons who were preaching teaching or practicing the doctor of the plurality of wives for on this law. For according to the law, I hold the keys of this power in the last days for there's never bought one on the earth and time on whom this power and it's keys are conferred. And I have constantly said that a man, Shawn but one wife at a time unless the Lord directs otherwise and this entry and the history was written in.

2:16:19 I think about 1857 by George A Smith and Wilford Woodruff and that was just harmonizing that entry and explaining it. According to what they had personally been taught about plural marriage by Joseph Smith. George A Smith recalled. That Joseph Smith quoted, Jacob, 232 and said that God has commanded us. So, you know, Joe the it wasn't Brigham Young. Who reinterpreted, Jacob 2:30 or came up with the polygamy, interpretation of it. Joseph Smith was the one who did it and, you know, even William law said that that as a not unbiased witness who didn't like pulling me admitted. I remembered there, is this verse in the Book of Mormon that seemed to authorize it, if God told you to do it, This is what William la la recalled.

2:17:07 He said he says even in the Book of Mormon Joseph was conspiring to later. Do polygamy, 13 years later. I know what William Lawson and so you know who and under Brigham Young also there was the strict need to have it received through proper Authority and this understanding that, you know, that Joseph Smith was the The designing keyholder, the presiding King and priest, or what? We would call it, they call it the prophet priest. And King was the office that Joseph held and what later, Brigham Young and John Taylor held. And so they acted in that capacity to basically regulate and to Pratt try to prevent abuses of plural marriage.

2:17:51 And unfortunately right after Joseph died, William Smith and George Jay Adams were abusing plural, marriage. In the East, they were doing the exact same stuff jhansi Bennett was doing where they were Around marriage or no marriage under the guise of it was it was a mess and Brigham. Young initially told William Smith to stay back East because we don't want you to get killed like your brothers were, you know, that just shows the Carthage conspiracy nonsense to be nonsense because otherwise we're going to be like come back here, you know, so that we can better but it's a back East so you can be safe, you know. But But when they found out what William Smith and John and George Jay Adams were doing, they called them back to Naboo to try to keep them under control and Brigham Young, you know, basically told George Jay Adams, you know, you got to repent and he will forgive you.

2:18:47 If you make a public confession that you were embezzling money and committing unchaste, you're being unchaste in the East and your jams. Like okay, I agree and Graham Young's like a confession. Never did a man, any harm if he was sincere about You know, there's the confession never did somebody any harm if he was sincere bright, but instead of confessing George, Jay Adams, ran out of town and basically, started attacking Brigham. Young started slandering, Brigham Young. And he actually goes back to Boston. And he actually accuses, Brigham Young of adultery in Nauvoo because you Brigham Young was doing polygamy. And so what the freaking hypocrite to attack him, Brigham Young's will.

2:19:33 And to show you mercy and forgiveness. If you'll repent and you go and try to get him in trouble with the law. Yeah. So, and William Smith, you know, they tried to be careful with him, but, you know, he ended up, you know, throwing out with Brigham Young. He tried to take over the church and got, you know, you got, you know, that they ended up having a Schism and the apostles, frankly, we're glad to have William Smith out of the way because William Smith Scoundrel. He was not a man of integrity, you know, he, he got, how many people got in fistfights with Joseph, you know, you know, where he got to the point where he almost killed Joseph in the Kirtland Temple, you know, and he was actually even involved involved with jhansi Bennett's, whoredoms, and Joseph tried to cover for his brother, and tried to get him to repent, but he apparently just kept doing it even after Joseph, showed him mercy and Brigham Young also. I showed him mercy.

2:20:35 So William Smith was a scoundrel and parley Pratt kind of commented that, you know, I could not he's like you might have William Smith back in Nauvoo and you might be you know, people might be trying to make amends but after learning all the details of what he has done and out here in the Eastern churches, I cannot sustain him as an apostle anymore after what he has done to insult and Destroy families, with, with the conduct that he had been doing. And so The apostles were kind of glad to be done with William because he unfortunately unfortunately even though he was the prophets brother was not a man of integrity. And so what's interesting is some of these statements, basically saying that there's one person who presides over the priesthood of Elijah come out in response to William Smith and George Jay Adams immorality, where you have parley, Pratt and Morris and Pratt.

2:21:30 Both writing statements were ill teaching this Doctrine and or suppressing all stealing covenants and Promises, which may have been entered into in any of the Saints in the East and relation. Eternal Union independent of the sanction, and approbation of him, who holds the keys that the ceiling Powers conferred by Elijah are null and void being made in righteousness and in direct opposition to the order of the kingdom of God. If a husband and wife wish to enjoy each other's Society in the world to come, let all their covenants and Promises be made at a proper time in the proper place and under the sanction and approbation. The one holding the legal Authority and keys of this sacred sacred thing that was published in the times and Seasons the August 1845 issue. So this one this is to protect the sacred principle of plural marriage and that was the purpose of this. And you know they had to struggle with it on the Trek West where you know they're trying to keep it under wraps wraps and you see Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball making almost as strong statements.

2:22:33 As as you see, Joseph and Hyrum in Nauvoo, like Heber C, Kimball says I would rather have my head severed from my, you know, my head severed, then to do what some of these Elders had been doing and he says, you know, it is a that he says, it's a great, it's a disgrace, it's been practice. I would rather have my head brought to the book to the block, then do those things and they talked about kind of the proper order that Joseph Smith introduced, he said, if I want to watch And brother Paul super or I have a daughter you can't go and make overtures to her. You must first you must first ask the one who holds the keys if I have a right to get a wife and if you can get a wife then he has no right?

2:23:14 Still to go to the daughter, but to her father. And if he permits, then he can ask. And so that's another statement at winter quarters and then Brigham Young commenting on. WWE Phelps made a mistake of taking marrying, some wives without authorization from Brigham because he He's traveling with them and Brigham. Young says, I am. Sorry, plenty, sorry, it is done, but you've been living in adultery with them is impossible for any man in the priesthood down the second one, but unless given to him by the consent of the man who holds the keys to the sealing power, then he has the privilege of taking a woman if there is nothing in the way. Are you operating in the Gentile world to get more wives know? It is by the celestial while you are to get wives? Well, now go get them according to the order of that law. If you are in your father's Palace, you can actually says to his children.

2:24:01 You must not touch them. When he's proven faithful, the father says my son here's a jewel. Take her into your bosom and when he sees him faithful and to govern that one, then he can give him another. He says these girls are no more yours than mine and I ever he says I have a right to sleep with them as much as you and it would be just as right? I'd rather have my right arm cut off. Joseph, never allowed the 12, nor any man to marry a girl on a mission. We brought girls home after a two years mission to England, but we never touched them. We paid their passage? Did we flirt with them or put our arms around them? No. We did not touch them. They married others, such as Samuel. Here's here's woolies, wife. And he said, sister Augusta Cobbs was given to me by Revelation from Joseph, but I never did anything until long after the ceremony was performed proper and all made, right? If Brother Phelps had told us he was going to bring a girl, I would have given her to him and glad to do it. But now it will be blazed all over the country and you can't prevent the Elders of Israel from running into whoredoms. And so, basically, it was a misunderstanding by WWF else. And Brigham shows and mercy and re-baptize has him and and and reordain Sim and performs the ceilings. But, you know, he says the concern was about this getting out of control and being abused by people who don't know how to do it the right way or wouldn't do it the right way, is the context of it.

2:25:23 And so, another thing that I think is significant in early. Utah is that Brigham Young when men in early, Utah were willing to marry wives. There was A Zeal almost in the Reformation for people to enter into polygamy. There was like this you know that everyone was wanting to get, you know, to practice plural marriage. And one thing that Brigham Young did that isn't given enough credit in my opinion is that he uses his control over the sealing power to try to avoid abuses in plural, marriages of men, trying to marry underage girls that would not be proper that were not mature enough to get married and so Brigham Young made a comment to one person saying you're now in relation to having a young woman sealed to you, I just received I'm willing to seal a woman to you but it strikes me that this one is rather young still, if you think not and always agree, we'll bring her along and I will if I think it was De Mi will sealer to you. So some of these marriages in early Utah, were basically caretaker situation where there were ceilings for young women, that were young teenagers, but with the understanding that the They wouldn't live as husband and wife until they're older and more mature and something that did occur. But in this case, he's saying, I'm not sure if this won't, she seems rather young, you know, right? Give me more details and if I think it's wisdom, then I might see her to her.

2:26:50 He did end up doing the ceiling and then another statement. Brigham Young said, he said, I shall not steal people as has been done old. Father, already brought three young girls 12 and 13 years old. I would not steal them to him. They would not be equally yoked together. So Brigham Young used, his authority, presiding over plural marriage, to try to, to try to prevent people from abusing the principal and marrying. You know, underage girl. Try to prevent a Warren Jeffs, kind of situation. Yeah, exactly. So, you know something a lot of people talking about how that one man Doctrine can be abused and absolutely can. But there's also, there can be a benefit to having a government of the priesthood that regulates and protects from abuses. And so that's where the balance comes in, in my opinion because Brigham Young taught that he was the presiding keyholder. But he also said, don't ever lie and lie? Follow me he said you need to have your testimony for Self from the Lord.

2:27:53 And if everyone leaned up, if you're if you lean on me you're not going to end up in the Celestial Kingdom. He says, you got to be independent and have the true independence of Heaven for yourself. You know, I think you I think you raise a good point and I think it's something that, that quite frankly Is like you said, there has to be a balance struck right where someone's not telling you how to live, you know, not not gestapo tactics, right? But at the same time and if I was to be somewhat critical of fundamentalism at this point, it's that I think we need some sort of way of being able to have somebody check our crap once in awhile, right?

2:28:44 To say, I think you're off base here. Not and and not just plural marriage, but maybe even just religious ideas, you know, somewhere where you can go and talk to someone and be like you know I think you're off in the weeds here brother and let me explain to you why and let's reason this out and and that's one of those things that there does have to be a happy medium there in order not only to protect At people but principles as well. Amen. It's, you know, you know, the gospel it is to sanctify us individually and are there is individual benefit, but there is supposed to be that community structure, you know, that so much of the New Testament talks about the church, you know, and references the people United rather than as single individuals and so that, you know, while a person I think people could be called in the church. I think people can be guided by the Lord as an independent. It's situation.

2:29:41 But I do think the ideal situation is having that community and having that structure, you know, so that you aren't you know, making say God in your own image where your blind spots can be possibly checked by a faithful brother who has good intentions. Yeah, so absolutely. Well dude, this was epic. So yeah, so I do think we do need to cover one thing. Okay. One last one, last thing that I think Think is important is we need to discuss even though the sealing power was regulated under Joseph and Brigham. Most fundamentalist don't seem to him. I think if you talk to most fundamentalist, they will acknowledge that they think that there's Authority in more than one place today.

2:30:27 And that they will recognize, you know, they were recognized that there may be priests valid priest it. Outside of just say, the people they're associated with and or even ceiling Authority held in different. Places or even, you know, authority to do plural marriage outside of what their particular belief about Authority is. And so, one thing that shows that, you know, that God and His priesthood will adapt. According to circumstances, there's always Eternal principles, but there's also the, you know, the in practice that circumstances can affect how different principles are implemented.

2:31:09 And under John Taylor, things seem to change where he actually was not as actively involved with plural marriage regulation as Joseph and Brigham were. And part of the reason for that is because of the federal persecution on the church, the ATA to Edmonds act. Basically led to John Taylor as the president of the church saying, I cannot have personal knowledge or involvement with polygamy as a principal. Practice because of my standing in the church and they're trying to basically and they were trying to print, you know, find out information about plural, marriage and throw all the practicing, polygamists in prison.

2:31:52 And so basically, at that time, John Taylor uninvolved himself as the keyholder of being involved with plural marriage and he actually authorized dozens if not hundreds of men to perform plural marriages as they were led to buy, he said that This could be signed by any number of different church leaders but that you know that he was not personally involved with it and this comes up when he was called to be on trial and in to testify in the case in a case of plural marriage in October of 1884 he was kind of subpoena design. Understand and you know basically asked let's see Yeah, yeah, so he was subpoenaed and asked to, you know, basically what he knew about plural marriage is being stall, mice and where the records were and he basically said that he wasn't involved and he he basically says, I give the authority, but there's other people that also hold Authority.

2:32:55 And he says, if you conferred upon any person that Authority within the past three years, he goes yes. Why. Who else he says sometimes? Joseph F Smith sometimes George Q Cannon. You remember any others? You confirmed that Authority within that time. I do not remember anything that present when this Authority is conferred upon you by, by anyone, or you is Authority, limited to some case, or is it General Authority? It would be General in all cases until rescinded. I understand is from you, the authority comes. Yes, sir. But I have nothing to do with the details of the matter but you are the sister who confirms The Authority. Yes, sir. And he says, then do you know upon whom you've conferred that Authority? He goes, there are hundreds of people who have the authority.

2:33:36 And he says, he says, who in this city is authorized to celebrate plural. Marriages. He says a great many have been appointed. Hundreds, could you give me names of those in the city who are now authorized to perform 40 marriages? I could not. Do you mean do you mean there are so many. He says there's a great many that would be under authorized under certain circumstances and this leads to the great sermon in the Journal of discourses, where he talks about temples are made for man, not man for the the temples I might be getting that wrong, but he basically says that, well, temples are great central place to perform ordinances. If we are opposed by the world and made it so that we can't do our ordinances in Temple, the work of God's going to continue and we're going to continue doing ordinances anyway because it's the authority.

2:34:24 That's more. That's the most important thing, not the place, if that makes sense. And he basically said that, they tried to interrogate him to try to get, you know, figure out where they could find. Records of plural marriages and he says it was wisdom that I wasn't knowledgeable about this so that they couldn't use it to persecute people who are keeping alive this principle. And so that basically continued under Wilford Woodruff, even after the manifesto, he's saying, you know, he basically appointed George Q Cannon to keep plural, marriage, alive, without Wilfred Woodruff really being involved with that.

2:35:06 You know that there are and Lorenzo Snow even commented when he found, when he hurts, somebody told him about George Q Cannon, authorizing a plural, marriage, lorenza, snow reportedly. Quoted said, I will not interfere with I will not interfere with present woodruff's, unfinished business is what Renzo snow said about. Well you can enjoy doing plural marriages and so And so this could easily be where, you know, High into the 1888 story where you have, right? The men who say that showed that John Taylor, commissioned them to see to it that plural, marriage is perpetuated, no matter what.

2:35:50 Right? And so you know it, what's what's? So let me let me paraphrase what you just said there so I make sure I understand. Let's take the temple issue first. Optimally, you would want to Temple to do that in. But if that's not available, the ordinances can still be had. Yep. Now what you said about John Taylor and plausible deniability? I think. I think we can actually point to something that Joseph. F Smith had said and this came out of a I can't remember what bucket was.

2:36:31 But it was by Quinn where somebody there were numerous people who came to Joseph, F Smith and said, Hey, hey. We want to be sealed. It's me and this other lady. Can we still do that? I mean plural marriage. And back to what you said about. Taylor authorizing other people to do that Joseph F Smith. Response was always if you can find someone to do that for you, God bless you. Yeah. And so you can you can see that and look, we know that even within regulated groups and churches that, that that Authority does get passed around to even people in that other. And and you know, other people other than just the key holder in that group.

2:37:24 So this idea that he's passing around that Authority. Yeah. It's it's it's a spot-on, right? Absolutely. And then I think a key thing is it's the 1886 Revelation kind of confirms it very saying that men are now having free agency regarding these matters. You know that you know because of the times are perilous but you know people who still want to keep the laws can still do so if they're directed to. So what one other point I'd mentioned you've talked before about how when you first live Marriage. It was by a solemn Covenant, which is something Ogden craps written.

2:38:08 On one thing that I think is very fascinating, is that we have a statement recorded in the Abraham Cannon and Diaries recording, three different members of the first presidency? What Wilford Woodruff Lorenzo Snow and George Q Cannon. To learn system was actually president of the Quorum of The Twelve, but you'd be the next prophet of the church. So you have Woodruff Joy. HQ Cannon and Lorenzo Snow. All agreeing that men who are in a situation where they couldn't get ceiling Authority, the but were impressed by the Lord upon righteous principles to live plural marriage that they would be justified. So this is a fascinating journal entry and it's on April 5th 1894, father George do Cannon.

2:38:55 Now spoke of the unfortunate condition. The people at present regards to marriage a man and Pima Arizona married. The Widow of the deceased brother, he did not realize till after the Bill is passed this true condition. Now he's raising up C to his dear friend, while he himself, is likely to be left without posterity, then there are men whose wives are Barren. Are likely to be left without Representatives on the earth. Young widows are leftist, some alternative and bearing Gentiles were remaining single all their lives. It seems that something locked to be done sooner or later to remedy these conditions. My son, David died without seed and his brothers cat, his brothers, can't do it. Work for them and rearing children to Bear's name because of A Manifesto, I believe even concubine inch or some plan where men and women can live together under sacred ordinances and vows until they can be married.

2:39:43 I sealed the SAR Surplus girls can be cared for and the law of God to multiply and replenish the Earth be fulfilled. There is a danger of wicked men taking offense at such a condition and a good people taking offense. They're at, and such a condition condition would have to be kept secret until the laws of our government could be changed. So that worked to permit the holy order of what what Like which God has revealed? He polygamy, which will undoubtedly occur at no distant day in order to correct the social evil. I do not say that this plan is the right one by appeal, to the Lord to reveal, what would be right in the matter to abort threats, avert threatened evils. So then we rent this, no comments. I have no doubt, but concubine it's will yet be practiced in this church, but I had not thought of it.

2:40:26 In this condition, when the nations are troubled, good woman, will come here for safety and blessings and men will accept them as concubines, then present with ourselves. Said, if men enter into some practice of this character to raise up a righteous posterity, they will be justified in it. The day is near where there will be no difficulty in the way of Good Men. Securing Noble wives, their terrible afflictions at the door of this nation, which will take their minds away from this people. And then what? In other discussions they admit that the manifesto did not repeal the law of plural marriage. It just took the responsibility off of church members. Wilfred Wonder said it was advice but that it did not. Change the law for that law is eternal. So there you have it.

2:41:09 Three different members of the first presidency, George Q Cannon. Renzo snow and Wilford Woodruff all agreed. That individuals could enter into a practice of that character to raise up a righteous posterity and be justified in that the best Church apologists can't refute that statement of three different church leaders, you know, Lorenzo Snow Wilford Woodruff and George And when this quote was pointed out to Brian, Hales one time, Brian Hills was just kind of had to, but he's something about concubines, that's a royal flush or, you know, he says, he basically just kind of want to mock it instead of acknowledging, what?

2:41:52 The church leaders actually said after the manifesto. And so that's one thing and then another quote that I think is significant and interesting is the statement. Ain't about John by John W. Taylor. On February 22nd 1911, which is recorded in the Charles Penrose, diary. He produced a copy of the other Revelation to his father, John Taylor, IE, the 1886 Revelation, he interpret it to mean that the man who stood at the head was received relieved of the responsibility of holding the keys. I have plural marriage and free agency was given to all my people.

2:42:33 So, John W, Taylor, John Taylor son went into the his Remember. So he was unfortunately thrown under the bus after the second Manifesto for perpetuating plural marriage. But he went into his trial, basically saying I understand this 1886 Revelation and saying that this principle needs is still binding, no matter what and but people have their free agency whether they're going to live up to it or not to receive the full blessings. And you know, that's, you know, he they didn't they didn't really like him saying that. He was a bit blunt, but when he was cut off there is, you know, you know, there are some apostles were like, man, we cut off the only the guy who got more Visions than the rest of the corm combined, you know, they knew that John Taylor son, John W. Taylor was a righteous man.

2:43:27 And he was, you know what's interesting, though? Is that like you talked about Joseph F Smith, there's several, he based the thing they didn't want to even consider is that the Try out. He mentioned that he felt there. Like would you act out of harmony with the present? The church? He says I don't think I'm acting out of harmony with the presence of the church. Are you implying that President Joseph? F Smith is okay with plural marriage. He says you can take it however you want take it. But I'm not going to say anything one way or the other and their say we aren't going to even consider the possibility that he would be okay. You know, that he would not be going with, you know, that he would not be sustained.

2:44:07 The manifesto is kind of They said right there but as Quinn showed and as other sources show that John John and Joseph F Smith, excuse me was giving a wink and a nod telling he knew plural marriage was an eternal law and he was giving a wink and a nod to men to continue to perpetuate it. And in the case of John W Taylor he actually brought him temple close so that he could be buried in Temple close even though he was excommunicated. For post, Manifesto post, second Manifesto, plural marriage. So that shows that he still believed that John W Taylor held priesthood, even though he was not a member of the church at that point because of plural marriage, you know? Similarly, sorry, go ahead.

2:44:59 No, I thought you were done. Go ahead. And it's very similar circumstance, Jean W bully John Wily's grand daughter recalled that after a state conference where Joseph F Smith spoke. That afterwards that Joseph F Smith came up to her, came up to her grandfather. John Willie, and told him that he was terribly, sorry about the fact that he had been excommunicated for plural marriage and he said it was out of my hands, but we can bring you back in a privately. If you would, if you, you know, if you have a mind to and what she recalled is that John Willie said you cut me off publicly. I would have to be reinstated publicly in order to accept that and, you know, drugs, the best.

2:45:46 And I think said that, you know, we unfortunately can't do that based off of where the church is that. So you know there's all these hints that Joseph Smith was really supportive of the Proto fundamentalist Beginnings. You keep the Principal alive. You know, I find this time period within the church. Absolutely. Fascinating. That post Manifesto posts even post second Manifesto time period. Where the thought of having another church or another group you went to wasn't really in Vogue or around at the time. And so you you have you have these winks and nods at people, right? And and this is where fundamentalism begins to pick up speed.

2:46:36 It begins to and and unfortunately I think it's the beginning of of the Schism, right? Because as I read the history of this time period, you get this idea that. Yeah we excommunicated brother so-and-so for living plural marriage. But he still a good guy and he's just fulfilling the laws of God, but we just can't acknowledge it and then it seems like When Grant comes around the, the hard Schism is underway and won't be that that again, that, that camaraderie that those Proto fundamentalists and the church enjoyed that, that Brotherly Love is now gone by the time you get to Grant.

2:47:25 So, and unfortunately, a lot of the early fundamental State have so like And while he would talk about how, hey, church leaders were doing Playmate after the manifesto, even after the second Manifesto, there were still Apostles involved with this but they couldn't prove it. You know, it's only in the last several decades, that the sort that we have access to all the journals, and other records that show that the manifesto was not meant to and plural marriage, but was a lie to the government and its only Now, that we can look back and prove that the early fundamentalist were telling the truth about that.

2:48:07 So it's very unfortunate that they didn't have access to the sources back in the 1920s and 1930s that we have today. Yeah, but I think I think bright side of the sources are available today. When bright side is that there's mainstream LDS people who see the end of plural, marriage being a really messy issue and even I think the church is on gospel topics SBA and that's that L kept doing, you know, that that are. It was a, it was a long process for plural, marriage, be ended. So there's some sympathy for fundamentalism and saying that. Yeah, they do seem to be justified. According to this certain perspective on trying to keep alive the old ways of Mormonism.

2:48:52 Yes. So, there are some members of the church that are respectful of fundamentalist, even if they don't personally believe they're called to live plural, marriage. Age. And they'll believe, you know, they're in the church. And I do think that church members one, not one thing that I think is fascinating, I think church members should be appreciative of plural. Marriage of fundamentalist is that there are so many prophecies in early Utah, that plural, marriage would never be done away with right. You know, John W, Taylor saying that principle, what or John? Taylor saying that principle will never be overcome and at the Manti Temple dedication Wilfred woodruff's. Saying plural marriage will continue until the coming of the son of man.

2:49:36 And you know, there's so many statements along that nature of that plural, marriage would continue into the Millennium, that wasn't going to be taken from the earth. And so even if you're a mainstream Latter-Day Saint and the church fundamental is to fulfill that prophecy of keeping plural, marriage alive, no matter what. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. You think that's a fast saying? No. Absolutely. Yeah. I You know, I hate what you said before about their members that are now coming around and, and even though they may think we're wrong for living plural marriage. There are those that are coming around to, at least being like, hey, I can respect you because you at least make your argument in history and we may disagree, but that doesn't mean we have to be disagreeable and I think that is is hugely important right now, because in a lot of ways, A lot of the problems like we talked about here. The LDS church is just as vulnerable as any fundamentalist is with it, right?

2:50:39 And so sometimes, you know, sometimes we do have to align on certain things just to protect our kids. So well dude, another thing, okay, sorry, another up you go. No, you go, go ahead. Well and I do think that it's, you know, when the polygamy denial movements test resurrected and, you know, the last decade or so first kind of understand uh, fur. And then there started to be other independent, you know, internet movements for this. You know, the people who are at the Forefront of it in my, from my perspective, where Lily fundamentalist, but now that these moments and just kept growing and becoming more antagonistic towards church members, I I'm glad to see that more mainstream members are picking up the fight and realizing we need to know the history here in order to defend our heritage and you know to defend the history that we know we have a testimony of and we know that, you know, that these early Brethren were prophets and were inspired and what they did.

2:51:46 Even if you know we might not be doing those. Things today and so I'm glad to see, you know, I hope that you know more mainstream largest think it's can continue to get involved in understanding the history of plural, marriage in the history of its introduction. By Joseph Smith. In order to defend these false historical narratives that keep cropping up and I've ever sick of absolutely. Alright, ma'am. That was that was epic. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to talk about About. No I think we just had a very epic thorough conversation about you know, plural marriage Authority its introduction as well as the polygamy skeptic or polygamy denial movement. So That was, that was good.

2:52:36 I'm glad you had me on good. We always have these kind of acid conversations, so it's always great when you come on. I personally, I'm getting, you know, pretty worn out with this with this issue because I've been at it for several years and it's often the same exact arguments over and over again. Yeah, really told you so but I was willing, you know, you invited me. I was like, I've got to do this for Dave, you know? So I appreciate, I appreciate that. I tried to stay away from it because A fundamentalist talking about polygamy is pretty base, right? I mean, it's it's, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, low-hanging fruit.

2:53:22 So I did my best to stay away from it. But man, you just keep having people coming harder and harder at it and it's like, okay, enough's enough. I gotta, I gotta deal with this. So, Well, I'm pretty worn out of it and so, honestly what I've, which does sounds counterintuitive but from worn out of it. I actually recently started a new video YouTube channel, as well as a Facebook page. Entitled debunking polygamy denial, where I'm planning to thoroughly address all of the different arguments and different, you know, and bring up the different evidence of plural, marriage, starting with Joseph and just have of a comprehensive place where these issues and, you know, be dealt with in a almost a I can deal with it and have it be done with and I can just point it back to that resource and it can also be a resource for other people and so absolutely this is something that I've started and you know, if you want to throw a link in the show notes for any listeners who might be absolutely for the resources, Yeah, I because I do think it's important to be armed with the knowledge and I'm glad that you you mentioned that you were armed with it recently and when you had a family member come to you be like I'm here.

2:54:47 That Joseph not teaching polygamy so you have able to yep it's it's yeah I know I look this statement should get some hate if you're an honest dealer. if you're really concerned with the truth, I think the evidence that Joe, that, that plural marriage started with Joseph Smith, In terms of the restoration, it's pretty undeniable. You have to do some pretty significant mental gymnastics to get to the point where you think you can say it was all Brigham's idea or something like that. So but anyway, dude, that was awesome. Let's do it again.

2:55:31 Only, let's do it on a different topic but yeah, let's let's let's get back together here sooner than later. All right. Yeah. Absolutely. Alright. Bye everybody. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.