Episode #52: There's More That Unites Us Than Separates Us W/Kevin Williams Host Of the LDS Life Podcast

0:05 Nope, you're not seeing double. It's a two-for-one Saturday on the second episode of February 25th. I have on Kevin Williams. Kevin is a devout member of the LDS church. He is also the host of a podcast called LDS life. Kevin asked me to come on his podcast, which I did in turn. He came on mine in both episodes. Kevin and I had great conversations on this particular episode, Kevin, and I talked a lot about gospel principles. We also Compare our faith Journeys. And ultimately, come out agreeing that there's more that unites us than separates us. And that's next on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast, So I want to take just a few moments here and just say, thank you for listening. I can never tell you how much it means to me that you spend your time here with me.

0:57 Now, on top of that. Last year, I received donations, that help me upgrade the audio equipment and software. This year, I want to do the same thing for video. Now, if you want to help out and make a donation, you can do that by going to Mormon Renegade.com, and making a donation. They're also check out the Mormon Renegade, supply store at Mormon, Renegade.com, and pick up some merch. Now, if you can't do Any of those I completely understand. It's not like it's been a banner year necessarily for our finances so maybe just keep the podcast in your prayers. Finally, as I've started to do more video, there's a YouTube channel up for the podcast but just between you and me. Yeah, I'm gonna be there very long. So I have a feeling I might get kicked off.

1:39 So to stay one step ahead of that, I've made a channel on Rumble, so head on over to rumble, look up the Mormon Renegade podcast Channel there and Crush that like And subscribe button. Thank you. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Kevin. How's it going, man? You had a. How are you this? I'm honored to be on your podcast.

2:21 There's a country song, I can't remember who it's by. But in the title, I think it's the title. Least in the song says, there's a first time for everything. I've never been interviewed on a podcast or a radio show for that matter, which is ironic because I've done a lot of interviews so I'm glad to be on your podcast. Well, I appreciate you having appreciate having me on and appreciate you coming on. So You know, i-i've been interviewed a couple different times and I always loved kind of like that change of pace because it maybe you'll give me some ideas about how I talk to other people or it's just nice to know what it feels like to have the shoe on the other foot. You know what I mean?

3:04 So I find that there's there's definitely some benefit on getting on the other side of the table so to speak from this. But um, as I was saying in the open here, Kevin Kevin's a devout LDS guy, who is the host of his own podcast and what was the name of that podcast again? Kevin LDS Life podcast. See for some reason I keep wanting to say this LDS Life podcast but it's just it's just LDS life. God cast okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah. And the other fascinating thing I find about Kevin is that and I hope you do I'm sharing this Kevin is that Kevin is blind and so that's going to come up in the podcast later anyway.

3:53 Yeah and so as he's as he does his podcast I'm really really kind of amazed at that. He's able to do such a great job with with some of the limitations that he's had. And so it's kind of Faith promoting in a lot of ways to to know that. So Kevin, real quick did You're you currently live in Montana? Is that where you do? I grew up in eastern Oregon actually. Okay. Yeah. Right. What part like Ontario? Or yeah? Ontario yep. Yep. Yep, and you were born a Mormon, right? Correct.

4:34 Tell me about your childhood. Was it a really devout home? What was it? Like, Well yeah, it was a very devout. My parents were very developed LDS. And yeah, we were typical. We went to church every Sunday. My mom was the young woman's president when I was in my teens. I know, I don't know what her title was specifically. I know when I was a little kid about 34 years old, she was in young women's as well. I don't know her title. My dad was in the bishopric. At least once that I remember, And I'll tell you something interesting about my childhood though. I remember when I was five years old, this would have been June or July of 85.

5:25 I was five years old and I was playing with a friend of mine in the front in his front yard and I think if I remember correctly, I wanted to climb a tree or something. I wanted to do something. I want to say it was climbing a tree and my friend said you can't do that because you're blind. And I I was dumbfounded. I didn't know what being blind was, why maybe I knew, but nothing my parents never made an issue or at least my mom didn't know, my dad was a lot more protective of me than my mom. My mom was always encouraging me to go out and do things on my own and go out into the community.

6:07 So you need to know that my mom pretty much raised me. My dad made that very clear to me, when I was young adult that my mom, One, raising me and anyway, get home. And I asked my mom if I'm blind and she said, yes, and I didn't believe her. And here I was not being able to see. I didn't believe her and I think I didn't believe her because I did everything that everyone else did. Almost I wrote a tricycle of my driveway, I wrote on a skateboard, although I didn't write it the correct way. I wrote it sitting down, but I thought that's how you did it. No one showed me exactly how to ride a skateboard, probably because they didn't want me to run into something and fall over.

6:52 You know, so I didn't believe anybody, if they told me I was blind. I don't know how you feel about that, but no, I think there's a certain I think there's a certain Beauty in not over emphasize emphasizing something that could be construed as a as a handicap or as a setback. You know what I mean? I don't know. Sometimes, we, I think we shortchange humans who have something that we would perceive as a disability, right? And we shortchange them by not expecting out of them.

7:35 Maybe. As much as we should, I'll give you an example. I have a I have an acquaintance who has a son? Who is a high-functioning autistic? Oh, and all this kid wants to do is just get out and get on his own right now, for the longest time, his mom, and it came from a good place, right? It was like, no, no, you can't do this or you can't do that or whatever. And I remember I ended up because I just felt for the kid. He was such a good-hearted kid and so I actually hired him um I was able to talk as mom into letting me hire him. What, you know, I would pick him up a couple days a week. I was working in the office during this time of my career, so I could bring him in the office and just give them little tasks.

8:28 And one of the things I did is I said, okay, you see the Supply Closet? This has all of our survey supplies in it and it's going to be up to you. You to count all the bundles of steaks, and all the rebar, and all the caps, and just keep a good running tally of it. And he did that, and he did just a heck of a job and he was just a great kid to have around and fast forward. He lives on his own now with some help, right? He asks, people to come in and check on him, but I mean, he goes to work, he has a social life. So I know, I think it's fascinating the way your mom went about it and I thought, gosh, I, you know, I think it was probably the right thing to do.

9:14 I mean? Well, yeah. Yeah, well let me finish the story because it gets more fascinating. So I guess I don't know. I still can't figure it out. I just assumed that anybody that was blind was stupid. And I remember meeting some blind people and I didn't, I guess me just being a kid. I just didn't put it all together, I don't know. But there, I think there was just such a negative connotation towards blindness. And I remember, One day when I was in kindergarten, I was rolling paper into my Braille writer. A my dad would sometimes say look at what you're doing so people won't know that you're blind. I thought, what does that mean?

9:59 And so let's fast forward now to October of 1987, I believe it was on a Wednesday night. I can't remember the date, but I do remember, it was in October and my second to the oldest sister asked me. Are you sad that you're blind? Now, I don't know why. My sister asked me this question sometimes. Maybe we ask questions and don't know why maybe she was divinely inspired? I don't know. And I just thought that I had to say yes and I was coming to the term. I was starting to come to the terms that I was blind at this point and I was just barely beginning to realize that I was a little bit different than my peers.

10:45 So I said yes and she said, you shouldn't be because you'll see when you die and I thought, oh okay, then I won't be and I think it was in February or March of 1988. I was in second grade. And I used to go to this girl's house that I had a huge crush on and play with her sometimes. And so I used to walk home with some kids that were mean to me. And sometimes I would provoke them to be mean to me, so that I could go see this girl that I had a crush on now.

11:27 Obviously, you know, you having a crush on someone and second grade as a lot different than when you're a teenager. Sure. But still, I thought the world of this girl. She was kind of my Jenny to force Gump. You could say, I don't know what happened to her but anyway, so I would go over there and it was the only way that I knew of to get over there. Because her mom, told my mom who told me, oh, let's just call her mom Janine. She said Janine is very upset with the way that these kids have been treating you. If you ever run into trouble, just go to her house.

12:08 Obviously, I jumped on this opportunity. Now, I had to calculate it. Because if I did this all the time, people had catch on, so I really had to be methodical about it, right? So I probably did this once every two or three months or something so that it wouldn't be so obvious as to what I was doing. So one day I was over at jeanne's house playing with my little friend I guess you could say. Cheryl will call her Cheryl and, you know, Janine just so, you know, I wish this kid would stop being mean to you. I wish this and I wasn't even looking for sympathy, but Janine's daughter, who is younger than Cheryl?

12:53 She was 4 years old. I told her something and I said I'm yeah, I wish that these kids at stop making fun of me. I'm blind and I was not looking for sympathy. It may have sounded like it was my way of trying to finally accepting the fact that I'm blind. Finally accepting the fact that I'm different and finally just moving on and it made my life easier. I don't know what you think of this whole story but I think your audience would be fascinated by it. No, I is I think about that. It sounds like you had to come to to grips with with this fact that you were blind, right?

13:39 And it's something else had never given thought to before, and it sounds like that through this experience. That was your opportunity to kind of embrace that fact, right? And come to terms with that fact and then that probably set up how you would would look at Life from that point going forward. Yeah, ironically when I finally came to grips. It wasn't even a harsh reality. A just was okay, I'm blind. I accept it. I'll just keep living life the way I always have been just knowing that I'm blind. It was not a harsh reality or anything like that right now that I could see how that would work. That makes that makes sense.

14:25 Yeah. So no that makes total sense. Kevin. So, did you serve a mission? Listen, I did I served a mission in Nova Scotia and well, the Canada Halifax Mission. Now, the interesting thing about that is I was told that I was only able to serve a mission for 11. Well, I was told in the beginning, I couldn't serve at all, because I'm blind. But fortunately, I had a stake president who was willing to vouch for me. And told me during an interview, before I got the milk ezarik priesthood. Then if I knew a mission president, they might be able to sponsor me. We'll just so happened at that mission. President was my great uncle.

15:07 So I I served under him for 11 months and I'll tell you a little bit about that story. I don't know any of this until just a few years ago. At first, the area, Authority older, Gary Coleman, not from Diff'rent Strokes but Elder Gary. Owen said, no, I couldn't serve a mission. The mission president, who is my great uncle asked why. And it's he said, because your insurance is going up, would go up. And he said by how much, and he gave him the quote, and I said, I'll pay it. And then he said, okay, we'll send him out then and the agreement was 11 months, only. Wow. And is that what you served was 11 months? Yeah, and you know, I was kind of upset for a long time about that.

15:57 But I think it was meant to be the more, I think about it because I got to spend a lot more time with my mother that I had. Had I come back in 2001 because I left the 99 and prepared me for her death in 2002 and I relied on her an awful lot. So I really think it was meant to be that I would only serve the 11 months. So if you don't mind getting a little more personal because it sounds like your mom as all of our mothers are but maybe even more. So for you was was someone who was really trying hard to prepare you for the life ahead of you and and obviously oh yeah because of that maternal relationship there's a certain Comfort there, was it?

16:47 Oh absolutely. When she When she passed Kevin, do you think that you felt it more acutely? Because maybe you felt like she understood you better. Than anybody else. I do not like the way I handled my mother's death. I'll admit that because when she died, I was just finishing up, final exams. I didn't really have time to think about it. And I really wanted to put it aside because I didn't want people feeling. Sorry for me. In fact, it was just weird because the day I did went to school the next day and people said what's new and I thought, geez, how am I going to break the news?

17:28 I said, well, my mom passed away yesterday and are you sure you want to be here? Yeah, I got to get this done and I looking back. I probably should have handled it differently, but I'll tell you. It didn't hit me until a little after a month that she passed away, right? Because I guess it was two months. Let's see. She died in to see about a little over a month because I came home from a trip. This is back in 2000, 2002 that she passed away see in December. So early February, I came home from a trip to Washington, d.c. because I was lobbying on behalf of the blind community. And that's when it hit me that she was gone. Usually she be there when I'd come home from a trip excited and very perky wanting to know, all about my trip. And the it really hit me hard, that she was gone and I'll be it was hard for me to survive without her because she was my connection to the outside world.

18:33 And that's when I knew, I had to step up my game and get a bunch of training in Louisiana on how to be blind, or how to deal with blindness and all those things. And so yeah, yeah. It hit home but didn't head home? The way I wanted it to. Yeah, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself about that. First off, I that first week and month after after someone like that that that's close to you especially a parent passes and you're young. I think there's just a level of shock. I remember when my old man passed, it was a good solid. Yeah, I want to say month before I really even began to wrap my mind around what was going on, right?

19:19 Because you're so busy with with preparations for a funeral and you got people coming by And then all the sudden when that all dies down, you got to kind of redefine, a little bit of who you are, what your family looks like going forward. So no, I I don't think should be hard on yourself at all. Kevin about that. I think that's probably pretty normal. Yeah, so so you ended up going to Louisiana to, to kind of get some. Yeah. It was about how to take care of yourself and stuff. Yeah, back in June of 2004, I went there and it was a lot like, boot camp.

20:01 I learned things that I had learned how to do when I was a kid, but I'd forgotten or learn things. I knew I could do, but I wasn't sure how it was an emotional roller coaster. There were days where I felt like I was on, After all, there are days where I wasn't getting anything fact. The first two and a half months I wasn't getting any anything and I remember coming to home one day to my apartment, just wanting to break down in tears. I never did. But I just remember, I had a hard day and I thought why wasting my time out here I'm not getting anything and I really was thinking for the second time about going back. Calm and I don't know what happened David, but the next day, everything just clicked in.

20:45 I don't know if it was divine intervention or what everything? Just clicked like a light switch went on. That night or something. You know, I think sometimes Kevin is this is just been my experience. I think sometimes we have to break as people before God can intervene. And I know with me, the more, I feel like I got stuff, the more shouldn't say, always, but a lot of times more, I think. Okay, I got this, I can do this, the, the less I tend to consult with. Odd sometimes. Yeah. And what that usually takes at least in my experience and but keep in mind, I'm probably God's most petulant and stubborn child to, but a lot of times it's at that breaking point where you're forced to hit your knees and then look up and ask God for help and that's when things will nor well.

21:43 The thing was I was having a faith crisis so I never did pray that much. Okay. Just things. I didn't even pray for help. Just things clicked. I don't know what it was. It's like somebody flipped a switch in my sleep or something. Let's talk about your faith crisis for a second. Will ya things were you struggling with? Well even before my mom passed away? I wasn't, I didn't like the fact that I almost didn't get to go on a mission. I knew of other blind people being turned down that I thought were perfectly capable. I didn't like the way certain people were treated, I had friends back in the day that were a little rough around the edges and I didn't like the way some LDS people treated them.

22:27 You know, I had a friend that lived with his girlfriend or know, I had a friend that had a roommate that, you know him and his girlfriend and his roommate were all living together. I didn't dare tell my parents about it because my dad especially would be no have been has been done to say, oh so-and-so's a renegade, he's living with his girlfriend. So and so's whatever, just call my name and well, your dad, I thought leave your dad would be really upset that you're talking to a Mormon Renegade right now. Yeah, but you know, I think my dad might, I think my dad did know about this friend that I'm referring to, because he did say something to me, one day about some girls, and one of those girls was my friends, roommates girlfriend. My dad was into the bishop breaks. I think he might have known, he didn't say anything, if he did, but maybe he was hinting.

23:23 But, yeah, I just, I kept it from my parents. I didn't tell them at all. And, you know, I read about Mark Hofmann, and that really shook me up. I'd heard of the name, Mark Hofmann in college, but I didn't know who he was in a friend of mine called me. During the same time that my mother was passing away and said, have you heard of Mark Hofmann? I said, yeah, I've heard the name and he said, he's a guy that forged documents the church. Oh, so I started asking around to my extended family because I didn't grow up in Utah. And I had no idea who this guy was. In fact, I was surprised, I didn't, I'm pretty educated and so when school let out in 2003 during the summer, vol 3, I read.

24:05 I listen to the book. Salamander. Oh that just beat it even Or so I thought he's general authorities claim to say that they're in touch with God all the time. I don't think so. Just if it wasn't for the fact that I was living with my dad, I think I would have just gone in active right there, but because I was living with my dad, there were rules. I had to follow. I had to go and kind of put on a face, but my heart wasn't into it. That's for sure. You know, I had, oh, go ahead. I think we all go through that. I mean, whether you're a fun, A mentalist or a mainstream LDS person. I think I think we all have moments where we have to kind of fake it till we make it so to speak.

24:47 Right? I don't think that that's too terribly unusual. Well, yeah, let's just put it this way. If the right girl were to have come a long and hold me off of my knees metaphorically like that song Footloose. We would have gone down the Forbidden path. So to speak, let's put it that way. I wouldn't have cared if it was the right person got you. Yeah, so to kind of sum up here, it sounds like you, you kind of have a, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like you had a faith crisis around so much the gospel as you did maybe with like church leadership, and church culture and maybe are the mark Hoffman thinks.

25:38 So so your Crisis isn't necessarily centered around Doctrine or around truth claims but more maybe the structure and and ldi. Exactly. Would that be? Would that be a fair assessment? Yeah, and I did have a major problem. You got to realize too back then I was a Democrat. And so I really had an issue with Ezra Taft. Benson fact, my dream was in the next life just a Hound as or tap Benson and debate him and really Hound on him. But we can get into that later. He was my favorite LDS process. Oh, he's oh, he's awesome. He's very intriguing.

26:20 You know, I've come around now. Anyway, I still am liberal on certain subjects, but gosh. I had to admit to myself and I was in college at suu. Even though I was a Democrat, I had to admit president Benson had some good points. I had to, and yeah, I had an issue with Brigham Young but yeah, you're right. It wasn't so much Doctrine as much as cultural things. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. So how did you, how did you manage to work past those? Well, Interestingly enough in 2010. My cousin introduced me to grow will call Gina. That's not her real name, but for her protection, I'm not using her real name and I was also friends with the girl, as still am friends with a girl, use her real name, Ashley, she won't mind if I use her real name. And Gina and Ashley were two really different people. I'm still friends with Ashley today. Ashley knew that I was going through a faith crisis. She's not a member, by the way, but she was with me during this whole time and I'll admit at the time, Ashley just fed into more of my faith crisis.

27:42 And this was at a time when I was working. As a customer service representative, I don't know if I should say the name. But I was working as a customer service representative and my cousin called said Kevin, how do you feel about dating? Someone that's older than you said, I don't care. And she said, well, she's really nice, she's LDS, she went on a mission, I thought, okay? I'm not planning to be active in this church, much longer, but go ahead. Well, as we started talking Gina and I the girl that my cousin set me up with I started thinking, okay, I may not be the most devout LDS person.

28:27 But gosh, darnit Gina's, what I want Gina has the same values. Gina understands the whole concept of food storage Gina understands intuition better than Ashley, He'll this is the girl, I want a girl like this and Gina and I had a heart-to-heart discussion one night. I told her, I I am not the most devout member of the church. I said something to that effect and I don't remember what happened in that whole conversation to be honest, but I could not sleep that night. I felt like I had to make a huge decision. Here.

29:15 Was I going to stay in the church or not? I felt like this was a real Awakening moment. I felt like God was saying, Okay, Kevin. Do you want it or not? Are you in or are you out? And I really had to think about it. I think I only got two hours of sleep that night And at the time, it was more for Gina sake. I thought. Yeah, I'm in now, maybe it was for the wrong reasons and ironically enough Gina. And I had a bad breakup Gina was not The Devout LDS woman that she came across as being but it made me think about what I really wanted and so slowly.

29:56 But surely I got back into the faith. So, yeah. So you went back, but did you ever have like those cultural problems? Kind of resolved? Or did you just say? Okay, this is probably just something I'm going to have to live with. If I want to remain in the LDS church, I would say a little bit of both, you know, it's a funny thing when you get older. The less things bother you, right? I still have issues with the culture but I have learned to separate that from the doctrine, right? And if you're going to base your testimony, I was listening to a good podcast this weekend.

30:46 It's a come follow him podcast from John by the way and Hank Smith if you're if you're going to base your testimony on an apostle or on the Doctrine, or on an apostle. Then you're screwed. That's not what they said. But that's basically what they said and many words and I thought. Yeah, that's right. Look at all the things that have happened. That I have issues with the vaccine. The August 12th letter, the way that the church handled covid. Now I think the church handled covid right in the beginning because we didn't know much about it and again, it's a worldwide church and so yeah, during the first month or two, I also think there's other reasons we can get into later about why.

31:28 Why the church shut down the way it did, but for heaven's sakes, after the third month, open back up this. We know that this is a control issue now and the church was taking its own sweet time. So yeah, I do have issues with some of the church policies in the culture but the doctrine to me, makes sense. Sure, sure. And what about the Hoffman stuff? Because that's, that is an interesting period of time within the old DS church. Because if I'm not mistaken the church paid an exorbitant amount of money for what would be later. Yeah, the salamander letter, right? Well, the salamander letter, actually, I can tell you what happened with the salamander letter, the salamander letter. I was actually, I believe you Steve Christensen was going to buy it and then this guy Elder Swardson. I can't remember his first president sorts and he was ironically enough.

32:28 The president of the mission, I served in about a decade and a half later. Let's see. It decade and four years later. And eventually present sorts in a deliver it to the church. It was a mess. I just came to the conclusion. Maybe the general authorities wanted to believe so bad that it was real, you know, how many times have we come across something? Or how many times have we received the gift of discernment? That said, no Kevin. You shouldn't go to this place? No, Kevin. You shouldn't hang out with these people, but I did anyway. And I paid for it and actually reading the salamander, the book again. The second time I realized, yes, I think the general authorities were suspicious of Mark Hofmann before the bombing, they didn't publicly admit it, but I think they were based on some things that I'd read in that book.

33:23 I realized that the second time now, don't take offense to this, but I pushed back here a little bit on this. Okay? because, Even if they had some doubts, wouldn't you go to Great Lengths to kind of verify what it is, Hoffman's pedaling? And then also, I can kind of by the argument, if it's one or two people that, hey, we just really want this to be true, right? Yeah. But there's, there's essentially 15 of them up there. On the top shelf of leadership. So Like nobody said, hey, we should probably really stop and think about this and maybe have this vetted, a whole bunch? Yeah, I don't know.

34:12 I'm not sure what the thinking was on that. I wasn't there. I'm not trying to soft-pedal this sure, but Yeah, I thought about that too. Why didn't the church come out and say we got to stop dealing with this guy. One of the problems I do have with the church, my dad told me this, when he served a mission he and his second wife served, a LDS mission images, everything to the church and having put that in mind. I don't like it, but I think the church, the general authorities were thinking, oh my gosh, if we finally, if we admit this We're going to look bad. Course looking back.

34:52 They should have done what you did exactly what you said and I don't know if it's true but I had heard that Bruce or McConkey was warning, that these documents were fake. I don't know if that's true. That's something I had heard. If that's true, then good for Bruce are McConkey for noticing something that they didn't write. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Wish I had a better answer. No, no, that's good, that's good. I was wondering how you how you manage to kind of get past that, right? Yeah. Because I think that these kind of conversations are important even though, you know, obviously I'm a fundamentalist, your develop LDS guy, I think we all have that Dark Night of the Soul at some point, right? Where we have to sit down and reassess our beliefs, our spiritual back.

35:45 Backs are up against the wall. So I'm always curious how someone comes out on the other side of that. Yeah. Um some some guys just they go the other direction, where none of it's true, in my case I went the other direction was like no, it's true and probably more true than what anyone really knows and then in your case you were able to just to make it all work which is great. Well I'll tell you a funny thing. Believe it or not, Ashley kind of Help me during this Faith crisis towards the end. He I say that because and I didn't realize it when I would go back to Buffalo to see her. I was trying to get Ashley to date me and we had a little too much fun, but we won't go there. We're still good friends though.

36:33 And It was interesting because when I went back to Buffalo people, including Ashley, thought I was very Ultra conservative, but I go back to Utah. I get just the opposite reaction and I thought, what am I supposed to be an ultraconservative and Buffalo New York, but not in Salt Lake and it took me a little bit of time, but I realized the cultures Were very different. Well, I realized that in the beginning but it didn't really sink in Gosh a family, I'm Buffalo New York.

37:14 Not a member of the church not raised in a religious background. Oh man. That's like watching the TV show. Roseanne quite frankly. Yeah. Yeah there there is some Regional differences, right? I live. Oh yeah, I live for a few years out on the eastern shore of Maryland and like they're they're Republican. I mean they're dead. They're Republicans would be are Democrats, right? And they're Democrats would be our communist mean it's there. There, there is a little bit of difference there. Regionally speaking. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think the other thing that helped to with the faith crisis of the, I introduced Ashley to some friends of mine that were developed in a still are devout LDS and I think the Ashley softened, her heart towards the religion and I came back in slowly but surely and yeah it was probably different than most people's Faith crisis has but yeah Yeah, I don't think there's such thing as a typical Faith crisis.

38:25 I think there may be some common things that everybody wrestles with, but I think that by and large, it's it, you know, they're very unique and individual. So so, you know I'll tell you one more thing about that when I was reading the book salamander I don't know if this was a guilty conscience, I don't know if my mom really was there, but I remember having a dream and I said something to my mom and she kind of raised her voice at me saying, you don't have a testimony. That's when I woke up and I thought geez if that's if that was my mom. Yeah she's right. Wow, kind of made me think a little so so what's your testimony based around now?

39:10 Then Well, I based it on the doctrine, I do believe in the Book of Mormon. I do believe in the line of authority. I do. You know, a lot of one of the reasons I agreed to stay in the church, believe it or not, was the social aspect. I liked the social networking. We're not talking about Facebook or any of that, we're talking about social that, you know, you go to a place and I realize that this happens in every religion, but it's really prevent really obvious here and I'm sure it's probably true. And your church, you move somewhere, you're automatically plugged in, with a network of people. I can call up anyone.

39:52 Well I should say it, but there's somebody I can call and say, oh I need a ride to this place. Can you come get me tomorrow or whatever? Sure that's not the only reason but that was one of the reasons I decided to stay in and it really You know, it's one of those things I lived in Little Rock Arkansas for a while. I did not like my ward and if I didn't have a testimony of the church, I would have left right there, right? Yeah. Gotcha. So what got you into podcasting? Well, that's an interesting story. I've always had a heavy interest in radio since 1987 a real interest.

40:37 And I remember asking my dad would night how the because I had a ghetto blaster. When I was six years old, maybe those old ghetto blasters, with the big speakers, say what you want about those ghetto blasters. But they had phenomenal reception, didn't they? Yeah. Oh specially on the am dial. Anyway, I had an old ghetto blaster. And I used to think that the music I was hearing was live in concert somewhere in Boise, or Ontario or somewhere. And I just remember riding home from Salt Lake because we were there for a family vacation over Thanksgiving. We were writing back late Saturday night and I thought my might this can't be right because if I'm hearing these songs and how come the people I'm hearing different songs.

41:27 People just don't travel around. Instantly and perform and leave. And I thought furthermore, nobody, I know is seeing is hearing them perform on the radio. This can't be right. And so I asked my dad, how is this happening? And he expired that radio stations have a transmitter and he didn't get too technical because I'm not sure that my dad knew it all either, but he knew enough being an engineer, he said radio stations of a transmitter they transmit radio waves and that's how radios pick him up and he explained and my dad didn't know anything about soundboards. Well, he did he probably knew a little something but not much. He just said everything you're hearing is coming over the microphone.

42:14 I thought oh which was a true, but I got my dad. You know, how do you explain that to a kid? That's seven years old? You know, it wasn't my dad's fault necessarily, he did the best he could and I just thought, wouldn't it be nice? Wouldn't it be cool if I had a transmitter in my bedroom and I could transmit all over Ontario with the records that I have because I had little kids records. Yes, we had records back then. I had that I thought well I had that I had to go to my sister's choir concert my second, oldest sister and I thought well, wouldn't it be nice if I had a transmitter and I could carry the transmitter and microphone to her concert and broadcast it throughout the whole community of Ontario.

43:06 And then I went to my brother's baby basketball game Church ball game. When it be nice, if I could carry this transmitter on the microphone, I can announce the ball game and you know, there's all these things. I was thinking of, I eventually got into radio but podcasting I was in podcasting before podcasting was cool. I got into podcasting in 2006, thanks to my friend. Ashley, we had started talking again, we reconnected Which is another story. I'll get into maybe at a later time, but we reconnected and I told her about how I'd like to do podcasting, but I didn't know how, and she sent me a link and it's, it was a company with no longer round called G cast.

43:52 And I thought, oh, it sounds interesting. So, I signed up and started doing podcasts the worst way you could ever do it over the phone. That is the worst way you could ever do a podcast. Sounded terrible but that's all I had back then sure. And then I figured out how to mix all, you know, I figured out how to save what I was doing to a playlist. Mix it all together and publish it. And so I was doing this before most people knew what podcasts were and then G cast. Went out of business, I had moved on, I was working customer service, I really didn't have time to do anything. What about podcasting? I felt that I'd probably get back into it again. And eventually in 2015, my got back into it. I was dating a girl and she just nagged me like no other to get into it.

44:45 Finally, I was sick of her nagging me about it and I got into it just to shut her up. I got a website up and running and everything. I'm glad she didn't tag me about it though, because one of the reasons I got back into podcasting is I wanted to interview Cliven, Cliven Bundy. Hmm. Which I never did. But I interviewed a man, which was better. So yeah that and then I started. So now I do to podcasts one is the only us live podcast in the other is canning plus 7A prepping podcast. Okay. Yeah. So I've listened to your podcast a little bit and the thing that comes across to me is that you You don't mind necessarily calling out the church when you feel that like they're wrong on something?

45:41 No I don't not at all. Do you worry about your membership at all? Oh, a little bit but I have to remind myself that Jesus Christ wasn't popular. And I also have to remind myself. I can't remember the whole story that there was a guy in Germany that was disobeying the laws of the land, and he got excommunicated. And eventually after he passed away or something, or when he made it back to the States, Lee reinstated his membership, I just have to. Remember, God can fix it. It may not be in this life but it can be in the next life, right? And just because I'm excommunicated or whatever, and I'm not looking to be, but if it happens, doesn't mean I'm going to go out and be permiss youis and drink and do drugs and all that, right? Well because because that's one of the fascinating things, right?

46:35 Because that, that LDS church culture, and I feel like I can speak to it because I was a member of the LDS church for 20 years. There is a certain amount of you're going to tow the line or reap the consequences, right? Absolutely. And it stems back to and I think the church does a terrible job at this. But it stems back to what we were told is kids what we taught in the mission, the prophet he receives Revelation and that primary song, Follow The Prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet, don't go astray, right? Well yeah, so the church needs to do a much better job at telling us there's a difference between policy and Doctrine.

47:17 You don't have to agree with the policies. Now, that doesn't mean go disagree, don't that doesn't mean disagree with every policy don't be, don't be rebellious just for the sake of being rebellious. You know, what? But what happens when that policy conflicts with doctor Well, what how? I give me an example. Well, I'll just use the famous fundamentalist one right, obviously, plural. Marriage is still Doctrine. Mmm. And if it's still Doctrine, then it still requires adherence.

47:58 So if you're not adhering to it or at the very least, if it's not available, you have a policy that conflicts with an eternal principle. Well to be fair, I haven't studied polygamy as much as I should my understanding of polygamy. I don't think it was meant to be around forever and ever know you did tell me about Brigham Young's supposedly said some. And I know that John Taylor said that polygamy would never leave the Earth. and, I'm not sure and I guess it's just because I haven't studied upon it that much, but I'm under the impression, I don't know that polygamy was supposed to be around forever and ever and ever, and I could be wrong. But I do know and I understand why the church got rid of it partly because Utah wanted to become a state. And in order to get, you know, get rid of polygamy or in order to do that, we had to get rid of polygamy. Interestingly enough.

49:02 There are people that we're going down to Mexico, to be polygamists. So I have to study more on polygamy to really get the grasp of it. But I was always under the impression that I die. I don't think in my hardest of Hearts, I don't think that it was meant to be around an eternal thing. Now, interestingly enough, in my personal opinion, this is just Kevin Williams talking. I do believe that it will be reinstated. Look at the wickedness of the world today. Look at that, scripture in Isaiah in sick of Nephi were talks about seven women to one man. Now, some may argue that Scripture may have been fulfilled but there's going to be a lot of single people. I think a lot of single females in the next life that we want to be married to a righteous priesthood holder, not saying that I'm the end, all be all, but in their mind. And so maybe God not my opinion, God had his reasons for taking it away but that doesn't mean it's not going to come back. I think it'll have to Yeah, I guess I land on that little bit differently obviously just because it's okay and ya know, these are have discussions to have right? That's how the other reasons that I had had you on. After I did yours was to show that we can have a respectful dialogue and dis Asher, right?

50:28 I think now that's hugely important in in what it is. We do as podcasters so and we need to have these discussions, I'm glad you're pushing back against making me. Think we need to have 14. don't, we've lost the We've lost the, I don't know what the word is, but we've lost. We've lost the ability to disagree agreeably. Yeah. We've lost the ability to dialogue. Yes. So we need these conversations. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because I do believe there's more that connects us than separates us. Oh, absolutely. Yes. I told you on the podcast. I think you and I probably agree on 90% of the issues out there, probably, right?

51:13 So, The, I feel like that then in our current religious climate in our current political climate, that more conversations like this need to be need, did need to happen. So I absolutely have you gotten any pushback from like leadership or anything like that for your podcast? You know, I haven't yet. Oddly enough. I don't think my Bishop has ever listened. I know some people my word of listened and they really liked the podcast. I came out against the church. Supporting the respect for marriage act, right? We'll get there in a sec. Yeah, I'm just more secure so far. I did get pushback from a friend of mine but I expected that and these older and no, well if you don't read, come follow me. If you don't do this, this this Statistics are high that people follow a trying to mate.

52:10 Give me a guilt trip. Obviously didn't work, right. Right? We do make, we kind of touched on it earlier. You kind of thought that the church should have opened up quicker than what they did. Oh, I do. Yeah. It's as if you read the book salamander letter salamander, Hugh Pinnock was confronted by law enforcement and Hugh Panic. Just was quiet and I can't remember who was interviewing him to get information and he said it's okay to admit that you're upset. It's okay to admit that you're mad. I think part of the problem is that generation. You know the generals I don't know how old you Pinnock was back in 85.

52:54 Use definitely older I'd say 70s and 80s. Unfortunately back. That generation. You did not talk about depression. You did not talk about your feelings, especially if you were a male now, thank goodness, we've changed, but I think that's probably part of the problem, right? There is these guys were old and they didn't talk. They didn't want to open up much about how embarrassed they were. That's just something, a male didn't do in their gym, in their day. and I hope that we as a church has changed have changed since then I hope Yeah, I think so.

53:35 I think maybe we've overcorrected too far, but yeah, but I think overall, you know, they look as time goes on there's no doubt that some things do get better, right? I mean, yeah, we have less people starving today in the world than ever before. That's a great thing. Now, there's other things that get worse, but yeah, I would say that. There's probably been some some good Headway made there. So yeah. So you kind of Eventually clap a church came out with those essays on polygamy and things like that. And so the church is starting to finally open up about some things Yeah, II. Reading some of those essays.

54:19 You can tell that there is a lot because the, it's not like the church had. It's not like they're authoritative, authoritative works by somebody out of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles, right? So, so you get guys, who are Quasi, you hunt quasi, some some pretty big named Progressive Mormons, they got in there and without naming names and and you could tell that there was There were definitely Parts in all of them where you could tell they were grasping at straws so to speak, right? They were like, well, we really don't know, but here's an idea. And so it's hard to call those like authoritative.

55:01 You know what I mean? Because, yeah, they're so full of of bias individual bias that that, I think it makes it hard to make them authoritative. Yeah but at least the church is finally coming out and say yes with this did happen and yeah I agree with what you're saying but yeah at least they're coming out and saying yeah. We're not going to be shy about it anymore. Yeah something like this happened. Well, I think they're I think the church is still a little shy about it, right? I'm I've always said, plural. Marriage is like the church's drunk uncle that shows up. Oh gosh. Yeah. Thanksgiving dinner, right? You're just yeah to say something uncomfortable.

55:44 And you get the feeling like, like, polygamy is definitely that issue. So what about? I don't think polygamy wasn't a statement, right? Go ahead. No, no, you're good. What was your feelings during covid? I mean, did you feel like the church handled that okay at first? Yes, and here's why and I could be wrong, this is just one man's opinion. When the church shut down, I had just come off the airplane. Well, I was in an airplane, I was in the air and what I found out the church was shutting shut down abruptly, I just come off the airplane. My brother told me. I turned on my phone was blowing up with notifications about it.

56:27 Mhm. And I thought, geez, I'm surprised they took this bowl of a move. Usually, they leave it up to the individual Awards. Steaks, or whatever. And I was a little taken aback, but I also thought well, okay, but this is a worldwide church. This there is elderly people. And this, you know, let's face it. Covid did affect elderly, people much more than someone like you and I and, you know, let's face it, there's a elderly people who are Temple workers. So yeah, as surprised as I was, I could see why the church shut down. I also think And this is just my personal opinion and maybe I received a little cognitive, dissonance theory. but as the church was, shut down and my brother, and I and his family were doing church at home, I thought You know what? Maybe there's a deeper reason.

57:30 Why the church shut down maybe the Lord or a president Nelson or both? Want to show us yes, times will get worse covid is nothing compared to what's coming up. Maybe this was a time to prepare us to have home church if things got really bad and I could be wrong. But that was my way of thinking but as covid-19 I became disgusted with the fact that the church was so afraid to open up as we learn more about how this virus Works, how it mutated. I always thought that the government was carrying it far too overboard from day one, but I was willing to give the church a little room for reasons. I had mentioned but I thought, okay, we've obviously it's obvious.

58:22 We've got some people at the top here who are progressives liberals, whatever. Well, it's obvious that they are buying into this fear-mongering crap. The most they could have done is say, we'll leave it to the individual areas which I think eventually they did. But then on Church opened, I thought it was Goofy. I remember going to church, we couldn't sing a song, we just hear the Oregon. And I thought, what kind of crap is this? And everybody was so afraid to touch each other shaky. Each other's hand and I thought, geez, come on. Can we just get over this now, I didn't have a problem with them sterilizing the benches after a Sacrament rating because it was still alive.

59:10 And well, I didn't have a problem with that. But for heaven's sakes, let's open wholeheartedly here and I think, Unfortunately, they were letting their fear interfere with reality so, I Have somebody who shouldn't say. I have somebody, I have a friend who works up at Church Headquarters, and what he had told me is that it was all legal issues, right? How could a bad that the church felt like if someone got sick at church, they could be liable.

59:51 For a lawsuit is what it really boiled down to. And so by following verbatim, whatever the government told, Um to do they could avoid those lawsuits. This kind of what I was told now well that could be but and then I have to ask the question, okay? At what point do we just buck the system? I'm not suggesting the church, go, all anti-government, I don't believe. That's a good thing at all. But, at what point do we just say? Okay, we're just going to risk the lawsuits now, look, Kevin White have we? It has it has the church ever bucked? The government.

1:00:34 Well. I think you can make the case in the very, very hard way. I've I think in the beginning maybe I mean, Joseph and Brigham, but I think I think and Taylor obviously, but I think after that, I think we said a pretty good president of well, we'll play ball, right? Yes, unfortunately and it's a hard light to draw because the church is trying to get into all these countries. But have would it be appropriate for them to leave a country at some point? Just say, okay, the government's not letting us practice here anymore.

1:01:14 Oh, here's your come. Follow me material. Practice on your own. Now you've done this before. We didn't covid. Here's your come follow me material. We are authorizing men of the church. The met, the father of the households to administer the sacrament or any iranica Melchizedek priesthood holder. You're on your own. Sorry, but the government's kicking us out at, you know, what point, would they be willing to do that? Well I think you have to go back. I mean and I understand where you're coming from on that, but I guess we have to look back at what what the church was originally doing, right? It was it was gathering Israel.

1:02:00 Yeah to America, right? And so maybe maybe the answer isn't a. Here's your manual and talk to you later. Maybe the answer is well I guess maybe we better start Gathering again. Yeah, and I don't know, you know it's interesting you mentioned that because on my mission a lot of people wanted to come to Utah and understandably. So but I worried because I think they got this impression that when they got to Utah, all their problems would be solved. Sure. And I remember reading something in the Ensign before we had the liahona magazine globally. That the church wrote a letter say, don't come to the America. Just because the church is here, you've got to grow this in your own land.

1:02:50 So I don't and I get it because they want to have the church in other countries. And I think my understanding Gathering Zion probably has to do with Gathering it in your own area. Now, I don't know how that's going to look in the last days when things get really bad. I don't know. I I'm just thinking out loud here, that maybe The church is worried about coming to, you know, people coming to Utah because, oh my gosh, we're here in Utah. And I know this David had that people outside of Utah, you may have experienced this especially when you go to Buffalo New York or whatever they think.

1:03:37 Oh, David's from Utah. Great. David's going to show us how it's done. And maybe the church doesn't want. All of that is why it was what I think personally I could be wrong but I wonder if maybe that's what they're because they're I think the church had reasons to worry about people coming to Utah just to be part of the church and I think they wanted to warn people. They just because you're in Utah, doesn't mean your troubles are going away? No, no, I can see that point of view. You, I guess my thought would be as if the church the church while it's definitely, you know. Its headquarters is in Utah and yeah, large chunk of memberships in Utah.

1:04:24 But but the church itself has influenced, you know, as Mormon them is pretty Regional, right? I mean, if we forget specially in the Intermountain, West absolutely. I was just going to say, if we look at the Intermountain West there's a little bit of Utah and every one of those States, right? Oh yeah specially even where where I'm from But Ontario, we were the minority. But gosh, it was enough of us there. We definitely made an influence. I'll tell you that. Right, right. So so the, the space problem, I don't necessarily see it as an issue. But yeah, no. I just just just asking questions as all kiddo. I think it's a good question because let's face it. If things got really bad with the stake presidents, let's say in Nova Scotia, be able to handle, how would the area, Authority handle it.

1:05:13 I think your question is valid well not I'm not thinking from a stake president standpoint. What? Yeah, what what I'm talking about is let's say the government of Take your pick can well. Left-handed, it seems to be going through. Canada, seems to be going pretty hardcore these days. So let's just say, the government of Canada was like, no, you know, I think that whole Mormon thing, that's divisive and that that's, you know, teaching messages that we don't approve of. So we're just going to shut down. Shut the church down here. Right. Yeah, I mean I could easily see the church sponsoring people saying if you want to come, you've got to fill out a form. You've got to come up with a good reason. But if you do all that and yeah, will sponsor you either. I don't see why the church couldn't do that eventually, I guess I guess I look at that.

1:06:07 And I say, okay. So maybe that was the wisdom that the Lord had in this this Gathering process, right? Uh-huh. And we know from history from things that Joseph Smith had said that the you would have the center stake of Zion and Missouri. But yet these the same patterns of community would just keep expanding. And so, as I look at that, I'm like it, I feel like it's a shame we really got away from this, this idea of a Physical Gathering because I think there was definite strength there, right? Sure. And and just like any sort of society. There there is a certain learning period where we're certain values and customs and practices. I feel like need to be in part in order to maintain that that culture.

1:07:00 Right. And by gathering, I think what we're seeing now is that That the laws that were meant to govern the church aren't necessarily applied equally or as well, as they should be, because they don't have that influence of gathering. You know, you have a point. I do know that, And maybe this is what you're alluding to. When I was in Nova Scotia church was very different. Yeah. We still had the three-hour block back then. Yes, we still were studying the Brigham Young manual. But while the culture was different, it was a hole in maybe as that which are furry, you're you're referring to but because the the Utah culture is so different than the culture of Nova Scotia and so forth.

1:07:57 Well, and I think we have to be careful that that LDS culture definitely needs some tweaking, Mormon culture needs some tweaking, right? We got a ways to go before we got this thing. Dialed in and mastered. I do think that there is a bit too much judgment that people cast upon each other, but you don't get past those without trying, right? The girl, the other thing that that I would say to that is that one of the reasons that I think the church is having such a rough time right now, hope kind of holding stuff together is because there hasn't been this This shared the shared values, right?

1:08:44 And I don't believe that all cultures and all societies are equal in terms of what they espouse right? Look, I'm a very devout, Mormon fundamentalist, I live My Religion to the utmost that I can but I could never get behind what they do in like Iraq or Afghanistan. Where they throw. Is off of a roof, right? I find that out. I find that appalling So, absolutely. So this idea that all cultures are equal. I don't buy that, right? I just I can't get behind that if Mormonism was what Joseph said, it was right and keep in mind.

1:09:28 Joseph Smith, Never Once built a chapel, he helped build communities and temples. So if the emphasis really is community, we as Mormons of all Stripes, I feel like we haven't done a real good job of getting back to that idea of gathering like Joseph and Brigham really pushed Well let me ask you this. Well let me ask you this, did Joseph Smith and I'm just asking because, you know, a whole lot more about church history than I do. I've got a lot of catching up to do but did Joseph Smith and Brigham well Joseph Smith, did he not build chapels because there was so much persecution going on or did he just not do it because he didn't want to, would he have done it in Salt Lake?

1:10:22 I've got to have a place to worship Beach Sunday. She also Joseph preached preached under trees, he preached in homes. I think Joseph Vision was way bigger than a church, right? Joseph didn't Joseph understood and you can really get a sense of this. In the old writings of the early Brethren that there was a difference between the kingdom of God. And the church. And Joseph was way he understood that the church was kind of the gate by which you entered the kingdom. Uh-huh.

1:11:05 Right. And so I don't think Joseph was terribly concerned with building chapels. I think he was in the mindset of we need Community. What about Brigham Young was he concerned about building chapels. He was, he was hit but that wasn't till later in his life. If and I think a lot of things transpired that cause Brigham to go that direction. But also, you have to remember too, is that for the first time when Brigham and the Saints set up, shop in Utah, there outside the United States. And for the first time, I think they feel very secure right now, I do think Joseph had every intention of having a temple in Kirtland.

1:11:52 Having a temple in Nauvoo Having a temple in, in, in Missouri. So, I think that Joseph was very cognizant of that, but I also think that he understood that those were communities, first, and foremost, right. He's not worried about building chapels because he wants to establish a Zion like Enoch at. And so, his, his vision was was well above where I think most. bowls were well, maybe so Joseph Smith does come across to me as someone that was very idealistic. Let me ask you this though. If we don't have chapels, how would we as members get to know each other because especially in places, like Buffalo New York, where there's not many of us around? Well, I can, I can I can speak from a very fundamentalist standpoint here.

1:12:52 How come and that is, is that you would, you would essentially meet in other people's homes and that's where Fellowship would happen, right? Like the, the church I attend, There is a chapel and a temple in Nevada, but for everybody who lives like in Northern Utah, we meet in people's homes. Okay, and there is there's a different Spirit. When you meet in somebody's home, right there, you're typically tends to be much more relaxed. You tend to be able, you tend to have the ability to ask deeper questions. And the other thing is that something happens when you invite a person or people in your home, there's a different Bond that's connected.

1:13:44 And so, I can only answer this as a fundamentalist, but I think it's a valid argument because we know Joseph did it this way? Is that, that preaching, and that teaching takes on a much more personal, feel in that kind of environment. Well, let me ask you this. and I think this is a good discussion, this is just me thinking What about? Okay? In today's, what about the youth? What about youth activities? What about where? You get the young men's together, have an activity. How would you do things like that? If we just met each in each other's homes and we had no chapels, no Wards, or whatever.

1:14:28 You've got to keep these activities going or you're going to lose membership dramatically. I'm not saying having outlandish activities is the best idea, but you know, how I went oh, when I was I was a teenager I went to church. Well I started having a change of heart. When I was a senior in high school, I went to church because I wanted to learn the lessons but before that I just cared about cute girls and hanging out with people my age. Although I didn't have a lot of friends in church at that point but that's another story. But how do you keep things like that going? Well I think It ultimately has to start at home, right? And if there's one thing I'm willing to to get behind LDS church on it said, I think it was probably a good idea to have more home time, unless Church time because it helped lying on the church to keep your kid active. Good Luck, Good Luck because if they're not seeing it at home, does not matter, it does not matter. One bit.

1:15:27 Now, having said that, I can tell you that my wife has been called to a position to help the young women out up here in Utah for for our, our church. Oh, and again, we don't have, we don't have a tremendous amount of Youth, but she still has that responsibility. And so it's just a matter of, you know. Okay. Maybe you go over someone's house and you learn some life skills. You know, whether that's balancing your checkbook or whether that's learning how to cook or first aid or any of those other things, right? Yeah, I think I think we maybe put too much emphasis on the bill Adding right, and not enough emphasis on what's Happening inside the building. Yeah, I guess I just can't get over the logistical the logistical purposes.

1:16:23 Maybe maybe there's a bit of a bigger vision. I've got to be honest, if I had I do miss the three-hour block and I'm one of the few people that does why. Because I felt like we could get into deeper conversations in a three-hour block. My my I love my brother but he's not a deep thinker like you and I we just don't get into deep conversations. I feel like we got a lot done in three hours but I guess I'm just trying to think. What would we Do with Ward dinner State conference and all that, you know? There's a reason why they structured at the way they did. What, how would you handle all that, that General Conference every six months?

1:17:10 Yeah, we still have that in the church. I attend. We meet every 6 months everybody drives down to where the church is centered at Nevada and we have a general conference, we call it solemn assembly. So that's what's referred to in the In the scriptures in the Doctrine and Covenants. But it's also a principal. It's a, it's a general conference type of thing. And so we all get to, you know, everybody comes from all over to attend those. Oh wow. So ya know. There's there's there's definitely some. Now let me ask you this, what do they broadcast it over the Internet for those that can't make it down there? You know, I don't know if they do or not, I know. I know that in our normal Church meetings, we broadcast those oh, Okay we broadcast those.

1:18:08 Yeah we we typically start church around 1 p.m. and that's because we have a lot of investigators from the LDS church that come over. Oh yeah we have found that our best time to do it is after most Wards have had their, their Sacrament meetings and that sort of stuff in the LDS church and then we go ahead and have our meeting and but yeah, we know we broadcast those and we got folks that are even overseas that Oh my gosh. Tun tun into those. So we're very liberal about handing out that link. So yeah, so yeah if you want I can give it to you as well. I would be interested. So how do you have three our churches? How long is?

1:18:51 Because I assumed after Sacrament, you break off and go to Sunday school or whatever. Not necessarily depends on how many people are there. Okay. Typically what we do in again, it does resemble What? The church look like in the Doctrine and Covenants early on, right? So, the folks down in Nevada, they have a building a chapel, right that they do use. Uh-huh. And so, they'll break off for like youth Sunday school then, but for us what we tip, there's there's no time limit or time requirements on our meetings.

1:19:34 We go Rusev Lie by the spirit and also, you know, I guess another interesting tidbit is that they kind of do what they used to do in the old days, right? Where where the leadership that's there is inspired to call people to come expound on Doctrine, right? At a moment's notice. So it does, it does get you in the mindset of, I better. I better be living close to the spirit because we don't know when when will be called on. On to talk. Yeah. Oh yeah. So yeah, it's so there's no time limits, right? It's not nearly as structured as what the LDS church is, just because we tend to go by by the spirit a lot on those things, right.

1:20:20 And we feel like if someone's really feeling the spirit and is expounding Doctrine is probably a good thing to hear him out. Interesting. Okay, the back. Yeah, I'm just thinking of, you know, if we didn't have I'm imagining. If the president Nelson came out in the next general conference and said We're going to do away with chapels. I'm thinking. Wow, I know this will not happen, but I could see something like that. May be happening in phases as things. Get worse in the world. I could see President Nelson or whoever saying, okay, we're going to do things a little bit differently in this area or whatever just because things might get so bad.

1:21:08 But I just, I can't comprehend. It just seems like to me, there's a reason why chapels were built and all the wards meet together and those type of things. It certainly has given us. A definite social aspect. We meet people that we ordinarily, would meet because of the chapel, I don't know. It's an interesting concept, but don't you think that that social aspect may have become too much of a factor and and low? Absolutely. But let me let me back that up with this, okay? I was still in the LDS church and in leadership in the LDS church when the first days of covid in the first days of lockdown happened. Yeah.

1:21:51 And so, what I noticed immediately Kevin was that you know the LDS church lost some folks, right? You all of a sudden I found out you know how many people it was important to based off of a social aspect and how many people it was important to them based off of a doctrinal aspect and and the church definitely lost some membership during during the lockdowns. Because all of a sudden if it wasn't there and the social part was your main driver. Well you know that then it's going to fall by the wayside. So I do think that there is the argument would be okay.

1:22:34 We're separating the wheat from the tares. Your point is well valid though. So yeah, I mean when and that's one of the fascinating things about Mormonism right is because it is a society unto itself to a large degree and it is a culture unto itself. But if the social aspect take precedent over the doctrine, there's there's some problems to be had. There you have a point, your point is well, you have a point and maybe that's part of why president Nelson said we're doing home. Study. You have a point. Well yeah, I guess I guess the other thing is too is that I think at some level you have to either be prepared to do that or have someone who's willing to show you how to do that.

1:23:26 Yes. And yeah, I think that that when covid came around, nobody understood fully how to do it right. Another, I've often, I've often thought, if those times ever came for the LDS church, I sure hope that they go to their fundamentalist Brethren to say, okay, how you guys been doing this. You have point because the vast majority of fundamentalists tend not to meet in groups, right? They tend to be families and some Close Associates. So there they really are very well positioned to be able to carry the work forward with diminished physical resources available.

1:24:15 Yeah, I don't know you you're making me think here but that's a good thing. You have a very valid point, you know, there's a lot of people that go to church especially I notice Youth and Young adults that just go for the social aspect. Yeah, yeah. And and that's now that can be very bad sometimes too. If that's all you're basing your testimony on and to be fair though it's also good, right? There is something to be said for you know learning by osmosis right, just being there, right? I think it was young Lombardi who said, you know, 90% of success is just showing up. So the yeah, we all go through, we all have to do that, fake it till we make it kind of thing.

1:24:58 But at some point you need your own Light, you can't borrow somebody else's. Yeah, that's absolutely true. And you know, maybe that's another reason why the church shut down during covid as maybe they wanted to weed out or God wanted to weed out the wheat and the Terrors and just a thought. Maybe, maybe, I guess I would have been part of that and because I went off and joined the fundamentalist sect. So yeah, but you're still a defender of the restoration of Book of Mormon. There's a there's a difference but I know what you mean. Right? Yeah. So I don't know. It's all interesting things like I yeah I yeah I'm not trying to beat up the LDS church I'm really not.

1:25:41 I do I get up or I enjoyed my time there and I feel like it prepared me for what I'm doing. Now in some ways but I think I think at some point so someone's going to look back on fundamentalists and go. Maybe they got some points. Maybe we should go look at them a little bit. Yeah, if we could just get people over the fact that not every fundamentalist is like Warren Jeffs. That's the problem. The media is given fundamentalist Mormons. A bad rap. Yeah. Yeah, they have, I mean, that's one of those things I think will continue to struggle. Against for a while. Ya know it's unfortunate. One of my hopes in doing this podcast was that it would inspire you know more people to kind of come out of the shadows and say, yeah, you know we've been living this way for a long time and and and that sort of thing and gosh, like like I said, on your podcast, Kevin, I I haven't met personally a fundamentalist yet, who was like I'm totally for underage.

1:26:47 Right? You just don't really see it. It's reserved. It seems to be for the tyrants and for the false priests who oppressed. I don't know how else to say it. So yeah, the Warren Jeffs the the Kingston's I think you you can see some definite issues there but the the vast vast vast majority of fundamentalist you never know him. You probably that's the problem is Is yep and no offense to you but I think people like you need to start speaking out more not just on your podcast. Maybe you can go to the media. I don't know how you're going to do it. Your podcast is awesome.

1:27:28 Well I appreciate that. I'm a clown. The microphone. Oh, maybe not you as a person but your group has to do more. I don't know. They can get in front of the media or what? You know fundamentalists are especially right now in kind of a Weird transitionary, period, right. Because you have you have this Old Guard who have some very valid concerns, right? These were people who had their kids taken away for selling living living the gospel to the dead. Are you talking about the Warren Jeffs crab specifically or everybody? Well, yeah, I mean, do you know the history of how the Jeff's came into power down there in short Creek?

1:28:14 Well, I think so, I don't know, I heard a podcast. I'm not going to mention his name but I heard a podcast with someone who grew up in that and my understanding is Warren Jeffs came into Power because his father was in the power, he died. And so he took over because it was the line of authority thing. And well that's that's not necessarily true, not necessarily the whole truth. So you have to go back to The latter days of World War Two. Actually, so the in, and again, I'm not throwing stones here, I'm just, I'm just telling you what I've read and also what I've had really good historians on this podcast.

1:29:00 Tell me, okay, the LDS church during the 40s was was really trying to Kind of get rid of that fundamentalist and of the Mormon religion, right? They wanted to be done with it. So they actually had some sympathetic members who were part of the Arizona, Highway Patrol and that and so they decided, okay, we're going to do, we're going to go raid that compound. Down in Arizona, Shrek in the 40s. Yep. Back in the forties and we're going to go ahead and we're just going to put an end to this. We're going to put the men in jail. We're going to separate the families. Doesn't this sound an awful lot like the Edmonds Tucker's act from the 1830s.

1:29:55 Yeah, I mean 1850s anyway. So they go in there and they arrest these men, they take the children into protective custody and what's fascinating is Kevin is that it's the rest of the nation that comes to their defense. Actually, I can't remember what magazine it was, but the magazine that featured the story about what had happened started to receive hundreds and hundreds of e of pieces of mail from even soldiers overseas. See saying we're here fighting for people's freedoms. And these people just got their their kids taken away for living their religion and the first during World War Two. It was.

1:30:41 Yeah, it was. Okay. And so, and there were several more raids before it was over. But finally, they returned the children, but the damage had been done. So when laroy Butler, who was the original leader down there in short Creek, when he dies Jeff's, dad is able to establish power and he does it by saying, look the world hates you. And the proof is they came to take your kids and the only way for you to remain safe is to listen to me. Now, that's bad enough but then you get Warren Jeffs that comes behind him and as we know, he is absolutely a tyrant and a monster and somebody who was just brutal and everything he did.

1:31:34 But yeah when you when you have a people that not only have our that you've convinced but you can point back to and say look they did come for your kids so you have to listen to me so I can keep you. Safe, right? And and if you have a problem, you come to me. You don't go to the outside world because they're there to take away your kids. Well what does that do to a people? It forces them into the darkness right, forces them into the corners of society. So all of that was able to be done because we had forced an entire people into the Shadows. Now, back to your original question, is we still have a lot of people.

1:32:15 I go to church with a All of them who either remember those days or we're actually part of those days, right? Where kids were taken from their families. And so we're in an interesting period where we still have some of that Old Guard who I just love dearly because they sacrificed so much to keep the religion going, but they're like, you, you can't go out there. You can't be public because you're risking the children and everything else. And I get a sense that there's a newer generation, who's more willing to talk about it. So I think At least for a while we're going to be in this in this phase of kind of trying to strike a good balance. Does that make sense? And I think that's why, you know, you haven't seen more people step out and be public but it that tide is turning, right?

1:33:03 It's beginning to go the other direction. So I I have Great Hopes And it's going to happen. I might be a bit early and starting my podcast, but I think that there's more to come and I have been pleasantly surprised that as I have talked with other fundamentalist on the podcast, they've always been While they've been apprehensive, about why I don't think I'm your guy, or I don't think I have much to say by and large. They're, they're really excited to do it because I think I think they can recognize that for perhaps for the first time they get to tell their own story. And I think that's just kind of where we're at now.

1:33:44 I have great hopes for the future. I think, I think we're only going to continue to be more visible and I've said this for a lot of years here in Utah, is that For folks living in Utah. You probably work with a fundamentalist and you don't even know it. Oh, I probably meant to fundamentalist in Cedar City. Didn't know it in the grocery store. Whatever. Right. Right. Yeah. So I have Great Hopes but but they're there is a large segment of fundamentalist that still bear those societal scars from from having their families taken. Yeah. And understandably. So right. Right. I The same way if I had to endure something like that, I'd be the exact same way. I think, you know, come hell or high water. I'm going to protect my family at all costs so I can definitely understand that that line of thinking. But I also look at the times we live in now and I see an increasing Darkness coming about, right. And I'm just going to call us.

1:34:43 Oh yeah, here I see the rise of the lgbtq movement and certainly I wouldn't deny them their rights to live how they see fit. But if they can be out in the open, why can't we exactly why can't we, why can't we say? Yeah, you know what, I do, have more than one spouse or, you know what? Yeah, I do believe the atom God, Doctrine, or any number of things, and then have an intelligent respectful dialogue about it. Yeah. Like what we were doing here? Exactly. Exactly. And, and I think, if I think if the powers that be In the LDS church and maybe some fundamentalist sex were to be able to get past their own animosity, towards each other. I think there's so much we could learn from each other. Oh yeah and I don't see why we have to hate each other. I mean maybe we don't hug it out on Sundays but there's no reason we can't stand together on some very important issues. I've said for a while and you're not the first LDS guy of On this podcast, I've had on Ken Peterson and I've had on Hannah, Stoddard, and and and Kimberly Watson Smith and they'll both be on again.

1:36:07 But my point has been is that look, the other side is coming for every one of our kids. They're not just going after the LDS kids, they're not just going after the fundamentalist kids. The the lies in the false narratives around our history. Are geared towards us all, if we believe that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration and that Brigham. Young was his successor. We all have a dog in this fight, and we can have our own theological differences later, but right now, it really should be all hands on deck. Oh absolutely. That's in this town reason not, the only reason that's one reason. I have no problems being friends with you is because of what you just said. Now, there's other reasons why we're good friends but that is one of them.

1:36:53 Yes. Yes. So yeah, no. I just find that the difference is that separate us shouldn't separate us as much as they are. Like I said, we got be able to hug it out on Sundays but there's no reason we can't do a work project or a service project together on a Saturday. No, there's no reason why I can't have dinner with you or whatever in your house on a Saturday night or something like that, right? Have likewise there's no Reason why you can't have dinner at my house on a Saturday night or whenever? Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, I think there's plenty of room with in Mormonism for all of us. Yeah, and I, you know, it'll be interesting to see where things go.

1:37:45 My fear is how far can we go down? This road as LDS people supporting, These causes LGBT causes nothing hits the LGBT community. I know wonderful people that are gay or whatever. But how long can we support these causes where they're trying to push it into our schools and confuse the masses before the church. Just I just hope the church does not go off the deep end. I don't think it will, but I, I hope to high heaven, we can get Cells back on track with that particular issue and may be other issues.

1:38:25 You know, I think this is my perspective looking in on it and I could be wrong. But I think the lgbtq agenda and I'm not saying everybody who's gay or lesbian or whatever, feels this way. I would dare to say the vast majority don't, but I think the powers that are the most vocal within that movement are Playing a different game than the leadership of the LDS church, right? I think the LDS yeah thinking still okay they just want acceptance or tolerance or whatever but I think the other side is playing a different game in which not only are you going to tolerate it? But we're going to win at all costs. At some point you will Seal two men together or two women together, well, that goes back to a talk apparently and I tried to find this, I couldn't find it maybe, you know, apparently Neal a Maxwell gave a talk in a general conference. That said of Something to the effect that you might be working with people that tolerate you and heat, it wasn't specific. But I think we can guess who he was talking about, maybe not certain groups specifically, but just certain groups. But he apparently said, there will be a time where they hate you.

1:39:50 They tolerated you but now they hate you. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think, right now as it stands is that At that side, the lgbtq agenda, not not individual people, but, but the agenda and the people that are driving, the agenda are playing a game in which they fully intend to win. They will not rest until there are. I don't know how to say it in this. I don't mean, this is an attack. I'm just saying what I see until the church will see. Two men together in. No in matrimony I think the LDS church leadership is playing a game of.

1:40:37 Well if we Just Surrender a little bit more maybe that will appeasement appease them, what kind of comes back you give us an edge will give you you you take an inch will get a mile out of right? And and so I think it's very much. I think the church is very much in a Neville, Chamberlain kind of mentality right now. Right. We'll have peace in our time. While the other side has no intent on peace, unless it's through total Victory. So I think I think for the LDS church and this is just again from what I hear from the inside. Yeah. And from, from what I see is that I don't think that they realize they're in the kind of scrap that they're in.

1:41:23 Yeah, yeah, I wondered that too. I think you're right. And the other problem is, we have more liberal people in the Quorum of The Twelve. I know Elder uchtdorf is more liberal. Yes. Supposed to Delanie chokes. I don't know about Tom, Todd christofferson or any of those but that's a problem to we have these people that are okay, they might be getting Revelation from God but they're human and they're going to have their politics or whatever, Call It Whatever. And that's that's a problem too. I think this is where we have to be so grounded. Yeah. And not just history. But in truth and in principle that we let maybe some of those feelings about politics, be driven by our our Doctrine right certainly Certainly we there should always be a separation between church and state.

1:42:31 I think everybody's just a favor that in favor of that but ah but this idea then skewed, right? This idea that that That politics and religion will never mingle. That's not true either right now because religion is the vehicle by which morality can be delivered and taught and really, the government is established to protect people's rights. So at some point you will have intersections between morality and religion and politics and government.

1:43:12 Right. I think, I think abortion is a prime example of that, right, where morality religion politics and government intersect and you have to figure out which one's more important. Yeah, and it's, it does bother me. That the church does not work with some of these anti-abortion groups, even though it's worldwide, I think I would love to have a bishop, my Bishop, get up there, and give a whole sermon on Roe v--, Wade, in the politics and the overturning, and how we have to stay in this fight. I'd love to hear a powerful sermon like that for my Bishop. Right? I think the church is in a position now where they have to, they have to be a little careful, right?

1:43:55 Because such a large portion of their membership is pretty far left these days. Yes, unfortunately. So I think it's just kind of the the waters that they're forced to navigate at the moment. Yeah. But anyway, you were pretty. You were pretty fired up. I listened to your episode when when the church came out and supported the Defense of Marriage Act or oh yeah. Well, I don't like the fact that the BYU professors are teaching this BS of. Oh, we gotta, you know, the gender. There's more than one gender. This is BYU For Heaven's Sake sake, right?

1:44:39 And I'm curious as to Why? We're not hearing more of Jeffrey are Holland talks about what the, you know, he gave a Pretty powerful talk. I don't know if I want to use condemned but almost condemning some of the BYU professors and once the LGBT and the dissonances and the church, the Patrick Mason's got a hold of that you didn't hear a word. Did they have something to do with the brother? And not talking about it again, or what? I think we need to know. I'm with you, I'm with you. I think we need to know one of the things I've wondered about.

1:45:19 I'm not saying This is what it is. But one thing that's crossed my mind is, is, is the LDS church just waiting for the Old Guard to die off, and then they'll make. Yeah, I have to watch you appropriate. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a fair question. I hope not, but it's a, it's a real possibility. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I tore my knee up a few years back I tore my ACL and stuff and so I had like a ton of time on my hands and as I rehabbed and got got it back working. So in that process I'm like I am completely bored. There was only so much Madden football. Ball.

1:46:04 I could play on the Xbox before I just went stir crazy. So I read a bunch, I play a lot of video games. And finally, I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna go take some classes because we lived really close to UVU Utah. Valley University. Oh yeah. And so, I would just go over there and I would just pay for classes, right? I wasn't looking for a major anything else. So I took, I took courses in anthropology, I took a lot on political science. And as I would get teamed up with some of these, these kind of hate homeless, but kids, write these these young adults? Well, you can call them kids, you know what I've what I noticed was that they don't have the same thoughts like guys, like you.

1:46:47 And I do right where we tend to say, okay? We got to keep marriage between men and women. They say well why can't two men get married? I don't get it. I don't see what the big deal is. I don't see why the church is so hard on it and so I'm a A little nervous for the for the upcoming generation. Oh, I am too. You know we gotta tell people God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve, right, right. But then they're going to come back and say, oh well, science says this and science says, that people are born homosexuality. I actually happen to believe that there are people that are born that way, but for whatever reason, you know, well, I think we know God wants us to Pro Creed. Have sex and, you know, procreate the right way and being homosexual violates that law. Now that's I don't want, I can't judge a homosexual salvation, that's between them and the Lord, but we know from the Bible, it says, especially in the Old Testament very much preaches against homosexuality.

1:47:54 Yeah, so, I feel bad for those that and I do believe there are people that legitimately struggle with same-sex attraction fact, I know somebody who's son. Does I feel bad for him because he's a member of the church and he has every reason to hate the church but he is willing to defend it to the day he dies. And I have to admire somebody like that, ya know, I'm there with you. You know, if if there's someone that struggling with that, I'll stand with them. I'll help them right? Yeah. But at the same time, you know, if they go out and become, you know, practicing homosexuals, there's not much I can do there, right?

1:48:35 Where again, we can be cordial. I will stand by for your right to live your life like you want. I will make sure you don't get tossed off the building, right? But I don't think we get the say I don't think that's reciprocated to our side. Right? No, and I've been reading a book by Julie Bellum, our billing. I don't know if you've heard of her, you gotta have it on the podcast. I've been reading her book and I know you have. I haven't heard of her, okay, very fascinating book. I'm reading her book, be nice, sheep's clothing and she talks about, you know, she makes it very clear if you're an LGBT person, I feel bad for you if you've been persecuted.

1:49:21 I feel bad if you know, if you've been alienated by religion and let's face it, there are people that have been at our very hurt by religion and even the LDS religion and I feel bad. But she goes on to say we cannot reach this in our schools two young kids like it's one extreme and Confused. The kids about gender. You know she said we need to talk about things like this in an Priya tej. And I like the way she wanted it. She wanted it much better than me. Right? Right, absolutely. Yeah. What was her name again? Julie Bella gotta have her on the podcast. I can give you her contact info.

1:50:07 Yeah. That'd be great. Okay. Um yeah. No, I think you're right. I think you're 100% correct. And I think the church is now at a crossroads, right? Yeah. Um, because I do think that there is a large chunk of the upcoming generation that Today will be leaders in the LDS church and I'm not sure. They have the same grounding that you and I do when it comes to marital relationships, right? You have a whole segment of this younger generation has come along that. Doesn't look at the proclamation to the family, as, as divinely inspired. Yeah.

1:50:48 And I've often wondered why the church hasn't just canonized that because that would put that all the bed real quickly. Well, I think I know what they say. They say, well, we got to be christ-like. We got except everybody. We got to be kind to everybody. Yeah, to a point but when it starts affecting Doctrine and when they start shoving it down us like that Baker and Colorado, who I understand this, the Circuit Court of Appeals or the state court wouldn't take his case again, we got to take action. Yes, I definitely believe in being in Christ. Like yes, I believe in being kind to, my LGBT brothers and sisters.

1:51:32 That's what the gospel is all about. But there's a point where you have to step your foot down and say, no. Because of they've been teaching the non. I know there's more than one gender and things like that right. Yeah. Right here. Adam Jesus Christ was firm. He knocked over the I was in the temple. That's exactly where I was going. Even the Savior knocked over a few tables. Yeah exactly. Yep. And who's to say he didn't yell at the other federal government authorities out there? We don't know. Right? Right. Well I think Christ gets painted in pastel colors a lot, but I think if you if you really get some background in in Hebrew culture of that time period, what you'll find is that the Savior, the savior's message was pretty radical right there. Weren't a lot of y'all.

1:52:27 There weren't a lot of organizations that really liked him right now. They, you know, you had the Romans, it didn't like him. You have the religious establishment of the day that didn't like him and to, a certain degree. I think we'd all better. Get really comfortable with this idea of not being liked by the world. Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting, my brother is so worried about social norms and I'm thinking Okay, it's okay to be different. I'm not worried about it. Like you are. Well, not only not only, is it okay to do? So, I think the Lord had set up his people to be different.

1:53:08 Right? A peculiar people unto the Lord. So in some ways, if we're fitting too much into society, I think that needs to be a red flag. Yeah. I don't know. I sometimes wonder if I fit too much into society. Who else? I think you're just fine. Kevin, I wouldn't sweat that too much. Okay, but but yeah, no you and I we're pretty close together on that and I can say, I don't fit very well and I'm pretty sure that it did anyone. That heard your podcast, probably feel the same way about you. So, but yeah, um, yeah, no, it's all fascinating stuff but Well dude, we're pushing 2 hours here.

1:53:55 Yeah, great conversation. I've got a met. You made me think about some things but that's good though. Well, ya know, and likewise to, absolutely. So absolutely, we will need to do this again sooner than later. Kevin. Yeah, I do want to talk to you off the podcast if I can. I don't know what your schedule. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. We'll do that. So, dude, thanks for coming on. What's the name of your podcast? Again? LDS Life podcast and unfortunately, I don't have an email address. Maybe I should get one set up this. But set it up this week Kevin and I'll throw it in the the page notes. Yeah. Yeah. I'll do that. In the meantime though. You can go to Apple podcast or Spotify, I know. I'm on Apple and Spotify.

1:54:39 Probably other places and get up there. All right, perfect. Yes. Server is Anchor dot f m. For those of you that wonder where a hose my podcast provider. Absolutely. All right, good deal. Go check that out, everybody. All right, thanks for having me. All David. Yep, you bet man. Bye everybody. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.