Episode #52: There's More That Unites Us Than Separates Us W/Kevin Williams Host Of the LDS Life Podcast

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Nope, you're not seeing double.
It's a two-for-one Saturday on

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the second episode of February
25th.

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I have on Kevin Williams.
Kevin is a devout member of the

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LDS church.
He is also the host of a podcast

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called LDS life.
Kevin asked me to come on his

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podcast, which I did in turn.
He came on mine in both

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episodes.
Kevin and I had great

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conversations on this particular
episode, Kevin, and I talked a

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lot about gospel principles.
We also Compare our faith

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Journeys.
And ultimately, come out

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agreeing that there's more that
unites us than separates us.

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And that's next on this episode
of the Mormon Renegade podcast,

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So I want to take just a few
moments here and just say, thank

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you for listening.
I can never tell you how much it

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means to me that you spend your
time here with me.

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Now, on top of that.
Last year, I received donations,

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that help me upgrade the audio
equipment and software.

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This year, I want to do the same
thing for video.

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Now, if you want to help out and
make a donation, you can do that

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by going to Mormon Renegade.com,
and making a donation.

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They're also check out the
Mormon Renegade, supply store at

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Mormon, Renegade.com, and pick
up some merch.

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Now, if you can't do Any of
those I completely understand.

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It's not like it's been a banner
year necessarily for our

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finances so maybe just keep the
podcast in your prayers.

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Finally, as I've started to do
more video, there's a YouTube

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channel up for the podcast but
just between you and me.

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Yeah, I'm gonna be there very
long.

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So I have a feeling I might get
kicked off.

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So to stay one step ahead of
that, I've made a channel on

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Rumble, so head on over to
rumble, look up the Mormon

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Renegade podcast Channel there
and Crush that like And

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subscribe button.
Thank you.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Kevin.
How's it going, man?

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You had a.
How are you this?

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I'm honored to be on your
podcast.

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There's a country song, I can't
remember who it's by.

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But in the title, I think it's
the title.

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Least in the song says, there's
a first time for everything.

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I've never been interviewed on a
podcast or a radio show for that

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matter, which is ironic because
I've done a lot of interviews so

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I'm glad to be on your podcast.
Well, I appreciate you having

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appreciate having me on and
appreciate you coming on.

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So You know, i-i've been
interviewed a couple different

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times and I always loved kind of
like that change of pace because

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it maybe you'll give me some
ideas about how I talk to other

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people or it's just nice to know
what it feels like to have the

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shoe on the other foot.
You know what I mean?

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So I find that there's there's
definitely some benefit on

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getting on the other side of the
table so to speak from this.

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But um, as I was saying in the
open here, Kevin Kevin's a

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devout LDS guy, who is the host
of his own podcast and what was

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the name of that podcast again?
Kevin LDS Life podcast.

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See for some reason I keep
wanting to say this LDS Life

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podcast but it's just it's just
LDS life.

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God cast okay.
Yeah.

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All right.
Yeah.

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And the other fascinating thing
I find about Kevin is that and I

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hope you do I'm sharing this
Kevin is that Kevin is blind and

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so that's going to come up in
the podcast later anyway.

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Yeah and so as he's as he does
his podcast I'm really really

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kind of amazed at that.
He's able to do such a great job

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with with some of the
limitations that he's had.

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And so it's kind of Faith
promoting in a lot of ways to to

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know that.
So Kevin, real quick did You're

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you currently live in Montana?
Is that where you do?

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I grew up in eastern Oregon
actually.

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Okay.
Yeah.

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Right.
What part like Ontario?

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Or yeah?
Ontario yep.

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Yep.
Yep, and you were born a Mormon,

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right?
Correct.

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Tell me about your childhood.
Was it a really devout home?

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What was it?
Like, Well yeah, it was a very

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devout.
My parents were very developed

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LDS.
And yeah, we were typical.

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We went to church every Sunday.
My mom was the young woman's

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president when I was in my
teens.

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I know, I don't know what her
title was specifically.

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I know when I was a little kid
about 34 years old, she was in

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young women's as well.
I don't know her title.

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My dad was in the bishopric.
At least once that I remember,

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And I'll tell you something
interesting about my childhood

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though.
I remember when I was five years

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old, this would have been June
or July of 85.

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I was five years old and I was
playing with a friend of mine in

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the front in his front yard and
I think if I remember correctly,

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I wanted to climb a tree or
something.

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I wanted to do something.
I want to say it was climbing a

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tree and my friend said you
can't do that because you're

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blind.
And I I was dumbfounded.

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I didn't know what being blind
was, why maybe I knew, but

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nothing my parents never made an
issue or at least my mom didn't

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know, my dad was a lot more
protective of me than my mom.

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My mom was always encouraging me
to go out and do things on my

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own and go out into the
community.

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So you need to know that my mom
pretty much raised me.

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My dad made that very clear to
me, when I was young adult that

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my mom, One, raising me and
anyway, get home.

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And I asked my mom if I'm blind
and she said, yes, and I didn't

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believe her.
And here I was not being able to

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see.
I didn't believe her and I think

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I didn't believe her because I
did everything that everyone

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else did.
Almost I wrote a tricycle of my

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driveway, I wrote on a
skateboard, although I didn't

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write it the correct way.
I wrote it sitting down, but I

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thought that's how you did it.
No one showed me exactly how to

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ride a skateboard, probably
because they didn't want me to

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run into something and fall
over.

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You know, so I didn't believe
anybody, if they told me I was

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blind.
I don't know how you feel about

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that, but no, I think there's a
certain I think there's a

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certain Beauty in not over
emphasize emphasizing something

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that could be construed as a as
a handicap or as a setback.

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You know what I mean?
I don't know.

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Sometimes, we, I think we
shortchange humans who have

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something that we would perceive
as a disability, right?

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And we shortchange them by not
expecting out of them.

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Maybe.
As much as we should, I'll give

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you an example.
I have a I have an acquaintance

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who has a son?
Who is a high-functioning

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autistic?
Oh, and all this kid wants to do

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is just get out and get on his
own right now, for the longest

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time, his mom, and it came from
a good place, right?

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It was like, no, no, you can't
do this or you can't do that or

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whatever.
And I remember I ended up

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because I just felt for the kid.
He was such a good-hearted kid

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and so I actually hired him um I
was able to talk as mom into

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letting me hire him.
What, you know, I would pick him

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up a couple days a week.
I was working in the office

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during this time of my career,
so I could bring him in the

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office and just give them little
tasks.

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And one of the things I did is I
said, okay, you see the Supply

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Closet?
This has all of our survey

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supplies in it and it's going to
be up to you.

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You to count all the bundles of
steaks, and all the rebar, and

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all the caps, and just keep a
good running tally of it.

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And he did that, and he did just
a heck of a job and he was just

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a great kid to have around and
fast forward.

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He lives on his own now with
some help, right?

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He asks, people to come in and
check on him, but I mean, he

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goes to work, he has a social
life.

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So I know, I think it's
fascinating the way your mom

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went about it and I thought,
gosh, I, you know, I think it

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was probably the right thing to
do.

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I mean?
Well, yeah.

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Yeah, well let me finish the
story because it gets more

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fascinating.
So I guess I don't know.

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I still can't figure it out.
I just assumed that anybody that

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was blind was stupid.
And I remember meeting some

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blind people and I didn't, I
guess me just being a kid.

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I just didn't put it all
together, I don't know.

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But there, I think there was
just such a negative connotation

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towards blindness.
And I remember, One day when I

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was in kindergarten, I was
rolling paper into my Braille

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writer.
A my dad would sometimes say

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look at what you're doing so
people won't know that you're

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blind.
I thought, what does that mean?

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And so let's fast forward now to
October of 1987, I believe it

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was on a Wednesday night.
I can't remember the date, but I

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do remember, it was in October
and my second to the oldest

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sister asked me.
Are you sad that you're blind?

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Now, I don't know why.
My sister asked me this question

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sometimes.
Maybe we ask questions and don't

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know why maybe she was divinely
inspired?

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I don't know.
And I just thought that I had to

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say yes and I was coming to the
term.

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I was starting to come to the
terms that I was blind at this

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point and I was just barely
beginning to realize that I was

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a little bit different than my
peers.

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So I said yes and she said, you
shouldn't be because you'll see

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when you die and I thought, oh
okay, then I won't be and I

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think it was in February or
March of 1988.

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I was in second grade.
And I used to go to this girl's

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house that I had a huge crush on
and play with her sometimes.

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And so I used to walk home with
some kids that were mean to me.

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And sometimes I would provoke
them to be mean to me, so that I

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could go see this girl that I
had a crush on now.

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Obviously, you know, you having
a crush on someone and second

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grade as a lot different than
when you're a teenager.

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Sure.
But still, I thought the world

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of this girl.
She was kind of my Jenny to

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force Gump.
You could say, I don't know what

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happened to her but anyway, so I
would go over there and it was

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the only way that I knew of to
get over there.

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Because her mom, told my mom who
told me, oh, let's just call her

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mom Janine.
She said Janine is very upset

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with the way that these kids
have been treating you.

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If you ever run into trouble,
just go to her house.

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Obviously, I jumped on this
opportunity.

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Now, I had to calculate it.
Because if I did this all the

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time, people had catch on, so I
really had to be methodical

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about it, right?
So I probably did this once

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every two or three months or
something so that it wouldn't be

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so obvious as to what I was
doing.

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So one day I was over at
jeanne's house playing with my

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little friend I guess you could
say.

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Cheryl will call her Cheryl and,
you know, Janine just so, you

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know, I wish this kid would stop
being mean to you.

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I wish this and I wasn't even
looking for sympathy, but

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Janine's daughter, who is
younger than Cheryl?

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She was 4 years old.
I told her something and I said

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I'm yeah, I wish that these kids
at stop making fun of me.

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I'm blind and I was not looking
for sympathy.

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It may have sounded like it was
my way of trying to finally

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accepting the fact that I'm
blind.

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Finally accepting the fact that
I'm different and finally just

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moving on and it made my life
easier.

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I don't know what you think of
this whole story but I think

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your audience would be
fascinated by it.

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No, I is I think about that.
It sounds like you had to come

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to to grips with with this fact
that you were blind, right?

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And it's something else had
never given thought to before,

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and it sounds like that through
this experience.

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That was your opportunity to
kind of embrace that fact,

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right?
And come to terms with that fact

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and then that probably set up
how you would would look at Life

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from that point going forward.
Yeah, ironically when I finally

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came to grips.
It wasn't even a harsh reality.

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A just was okay, I'm blind.
I accept it.

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I'll just keep living life the
way I always have been just

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00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:18,000
knowing that I'm blind.
It was not a harsh reality or

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00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,600
anything like that right now
that I could see how that would

225
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,500
work.
That makes that makes sense.

226
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,900
Yeah.
So no that makes total sense.

227
00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:29,900
Kevin.
So, did you serve a mission?

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00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,900
Listen, I did I served a mission
in Nova Scotia and well, the

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00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:38,500
Canada Halifax Mission.
Now, the interesting thing about

230
00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:42,900
that is I was told that I was
only able to serve a mission for

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00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:44,900
11.
Well, I was told in the

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00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:48,400
beginning, I couldn't serve at
all, because I'm blind.

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00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,400
But fortunately, I had a stake
president who was willing to

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00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,500
vouch for me.
And told me during an interview,

235
00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:58,900
before I got the milk ezarik
priesthood.

236
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,900
Then if I knew a mission
president, they might be able to

237
00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:04,900
sponsor me.
We'll just so happened at that

238
00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:06,900
mission.
President was my great uncle.

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00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:13,100
So I I served under him for 11
months and I'll tell you a

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00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:15,300
little bit about that story.
I don't know any of this until

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00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:19,200
just a few years ago.
At first, the area, Authority

242
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,300
older, Gary Coleman, not from
Diff'rent Strokes but Elder

243
00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:26,500
Gary.
Owen said, no, I couldn't serve

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00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,500
a mission.
The mission president, who is my

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00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:32,900
great uncle asked why.
And it's he said, because your

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00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:34,800
insurance is going up, would go
up.

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00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,600
And he said by how much, and he
gave him the quote, and I said,

248
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,200
I'll pay it.
And then he said, okay, we'll

249
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,200
send him out then and the
agreement was 11 months, only.

250
00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:48,800
Wow.
And is that what you served was

251
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,800
11 months?
Yeah, and you know, I was kind

252
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,600
of upset for a long time about
that.

253
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,900
But I think it was meant to be
the more, I think about it

254
00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:03,300
because I got to spend a lot
more time with my mother that I

255
00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:07,400
had.
Had I come back in 2001 because

256
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:13,500
I left the 99 and prepared me
for her death in 2002 and I

257
00:16:13,508 --> 00:16:16,900
relied on her an awful lot.
So I really think it was meant

258
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:19,400
to be that I would only serve
the 11 months.

259
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:24,200
So if you don't mind getting a
little more personal because it

260
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:29,000
sounds like your mom as all of
our mothers are but maybe even

261
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,300
more.
So for you was was someone who

262
00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:38,600
was really trying hard to
prepare you for the life ahead

263
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,900
of you and and obviously oh yeah
because of that maternal

264
00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:47,500
relationship there's a certain
Comfort there, was it?

265
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,200
Oh absolutely.
When she When she passed Kevin,

266
00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:55,000
do you think that you felt it
more acutely?

267
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,700
Because maybe you felt like she
understood you better.

268
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:04,500
Than anybody else.
I do not like the way I handled

269
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:08,200
my mother's death.
I'll admit that because when she

270
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,500
died, I was just finishing up,
final exams.

271
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:13,800
I didn't really have time to
think about it.

272
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,599
And I really wanted to put it
aside because I didn't want

273
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:19,099
people feeling.
Sorry for me.

274
00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:23,200
In fact, it was just weird
because the day I did went to

275
00:17:23,208 --> 00:17:26,099
school the next day and people
said what's new and I thought,

276
00:17:26,099 --> 00:17:28,000
geez, how am I going to break
the news?

277
00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:31,700
I said, well, my mom passed away
yesterday and are you sure you

278
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:35,900
want to be here?
Yeah, I got to get this done and

279
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:38,700
I looking back.
I probably should have handled

280
00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:40,200
it differently, but I'll tell
you.

281
00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:46,400
It didn't hit me until a little
after a month that she passed

282
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,600
away, right?
Because I guess it was two

283
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:52,300
months.
Let's see.

284
00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:55,900
She died in to see about a
little over a month because I

285
00:17:55,900 --> 00:18:01,100
came home from a trip.
This is back in 2000, 2002 that

286
00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:06,600
she passed away see in December.
So early February, I came home

287
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,300
from a trip to Washington, d.c.
because I was lobbying on behalf

288
00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:14,400
of the blind community.
And that's when it hit me that

289
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,600
she was gone.
Usually she be there when I'd

290
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,000
come home from a trip excited
and very perky wanting to know,

291
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:26,700
all about my trip.
And the it really hit me hard,

292
00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:30,000
that she was gone and I'll be it
was hard for me to survive

293
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,500
without her because she was my
connection to the outside world.

294
00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:37,500
And that's when I knew, I had to
step up my game and get a bunch

295
00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:41,000
of training in Louisiana on how
to be blind, or how to deal with

296
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,300
blindness and all those things.
And so yeah, yeah.

297
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,700
It hit home but didn't head
home?

298
00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:52,100
The way I wanted it to.
Yeah, I wouldn't be too hard on

299
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:58,700
yourself about that.
First off, I that first week and

300
00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:03,400
month after after someone like
that that that's close to you

301
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,800
especially a parent passes and
you're young.

302
00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:08,100
I think there's just a level of
shock.

303
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:12,600
I remember when my old man
passed, it was a good solid.

304
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,400
Yeah, I want to say month before
I really even began to wrap my

305
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,700
mind around what was going on,
right?

306
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:24,700
Because you're so busy with with
preparations for a funeral and

307
00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:29,000
you got people coming by And
then all the sudden when that

308
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,800
all dies down, you got to kind
of redefine, a little bit of who

309
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,300
you are, what your family looks
like going forward.

310
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,600
So no, I I don't think should be
hard on yourself at all.

311
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,000
Kevin about that.
I think that's probably pretty

312
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:48,000
normal.
Yeah, so so you ended up going

313
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,000
to Louisiana to, to kind of get
some.

314
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,100
Yeah.
It was about how to take care of

315
00:19:54,108 --> 00:19:59,000
yourself and stuff.
Yeah, back in June of 2004, I

316
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,900
went there and it was a lot
like, boot camp.

317
00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:04,500
I learned things that I had
learned how to do when I was a

318
00:20:04,508 --> 00:20:06,900
kid, but I'd forgotten or learn
things.

319
00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:10,800
I knew I could do, but I wasn't
sure how it was an emotional

320
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,900
roller coaster.
There were days where I felt

321
00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:16,700
like I was on, After all, there
are days where I wasn't getting

322
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:19,400
anything fact.
The first two and a half months

323
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,700
I wasn't getting any anything
and I remember coming to home

324
00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:29,000
one day to my apartment, just
wanting to break down in tears.

325
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,800
I never did.
But I just remember, I had a

326
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,400
hard day and I thought why
wasting my time out here I'm not

327
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,300
getting anything and I really
was thinking for the second time

328
00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,700
about going back.
Calm and I don't know what

329
00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:45,600
happened David, but the next
day, everything just clicked in.

330
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,000
I don't know if it was divine
intervention or what everything?

331
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,300
Just clicked like a light switch
went on.

332
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:54,700
That night or something.
You know, I think sometimes

333
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:57,400
Kevin is this is just been my
experience.

334
00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:03,800
I think sometimes we have to
break as people before God can

335
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,100
intervene.
And I know with me, the more, I

336
00:21:08,108 --> 00:21:14,100
feel like I got stuff, the more
shouldn't say, always, but a lot

337
00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:17,800
of times more, I think.
Okay, I got this, I can do this,

338
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,300
the, the less I tend to consult
with.

339
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:22,500
Odd sometimes.
Yeah.

340
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,600
And what that usually takes at
least in my experience and but

341
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,700
keep in mind, I'm probably God's
most petulant and stubborn child

342
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:35,700
to, but a lot of times it's at
that breaking point where you're

343
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:40,400
forced to hit your knees and
then look up and ask God for

344
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,600
help and that's when things will
nor well.

345
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,900
The thing was I was having a
faith crisis so I never did pray

346
00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:49,100
that much.
Okay.

347
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:51,800
Just things.
I didn't even pray for help.

348
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,900
Just things clicked.
I don't know what it was.

349
00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:57,500
It's like somebody flipped a
switch in my sleep or something.

350
00:21:58,300 --> 00:22:00,500
Let's talk about your faith
crisis for a second.

351
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:02,700
Will ya things were you
struggling with?

352
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,900
Well even before my mom passed
away?

353
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,100
I wasn't, I didn't like the fact
that I almost didn't get to go

354
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:13,300
on a mission.
I knew of other blind people

355
00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:16,300
being turned down that I thought
were perfectly capable.

356
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,000
I didn't like the way certain
people were treated, I had

357
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,600
friends back in the day that
were a little rough around the

358
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,100
edges and I didn't like the way
some LDS people treated them.

359
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,500
You know, I had a friend that
lived with his girlfriend or

360
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:32,500
know, I had a friend that had a
roommate that, you know him and

361
00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:35,200
his girlfriend and his roommate
were all living together.

362
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,400
I didn't dare tell my parents
about it because my dad

363
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,000
especially would be no have been
has been done to say, oh

364
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,900
so-and-so's a renegade, he's
living with his girlfriend.

365
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,300
So and so's whatever, just call
my name and well, your dad, I

366
00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:55,100
thought leave your dad would be
really upset that you're talking

367
00:22:55,100 --> 00:23:02,300
to a Mormon Renegade right now.
Yeah, but you know, I think my

368
00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:06,900
dad might, I think my dad did
know about this friend that I'm

369
00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:10,400
referring to, because he did say
something to me, one day about

370
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,400
some girls, and one of those
girls was my friends, roommates

371
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,300
girlfriend.
My dad was into the bishop

372
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:19,000
breaks.
I think he might have known, he

373
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,100
didn't say anything, if he did,
but maybe he was hinting.

374
00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:26,200
But, yeah, I just, I kept it
from my parents.

375
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,800
I didn't tell them at all.
And, you know, I read about Mark

376
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,200
Hofmann, and that really shook
me up.

377
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,100
I'd heard of the name, Mark
Hofmann in college, but I didn't

378
00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:39,300
know who he was in a friend of
mine called me.

379
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,300
During the same time that my
mother was passing away and

380
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:43,600
said, have you heard of Mark
Hofmann?

381
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,400
I said, yeah, I've heard the
name and he said, he's a guy

382
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,100
that forged documents the
church.

383
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:51,400
Oh, so I started asking around
to my extended family because I

384
00:23:51,408 --> 00:23:55,200
didn't grow up in Utah.
And I had no idea who this guy

385
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,800
was.
In fact, I was surprised, I

386
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:03,200
didn't, I'm pretty educated and
so when school let out in 2003

387
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,900
during the summer, vol 3, I
read.

388
00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:07,700
I listen to the book.
Salamander.

389
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,400
Oh that just beat it even Or so
I thought he's general

390
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,300
authorities claim to say that
they're in touch with God all

391
00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:16,600
the time.
I don't think so.

392
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,300
Just if it wasn't for the fact
that I was living with my dad, I

393
00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:24,800
think I would have just gone in
active right there, but because

394
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,500
I was living with my dad, there
were rules.

395
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:28,900
I had to follow.
I had to go and kind of put on a

396
00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:30,900
face, but my heart wasn't into
it.

397
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:36,200
That's for sure.
You know, I had, oh, go ahead.

398
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,800
I think we all go through that.
I mean, whether you're a fun, A

399
00:24:39,808 --> 00:24:41,900
mentalist or a mainstream LDS
person.

400
00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:45,500
I think I think we all have
moments where we have to kind of

401
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:47,500
fake it till we make it so to
speak.

402
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:50,200
Right?
I don't think that that's too

403
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:57,800
terribly unusual.
Well, yeah, let's just put it

404
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,200
this way.
If the right girl were to have

405
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:06,800
come a long and hold me off of
my knees metaphorically like

406
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,500
that song Footloose.
We would have gone down the

407
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:14,200
Forbidden path.
So to speak, let's put it that

408
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,100
way.
I wouldn't have cared if it was

409
00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:20,700
the right person got you.
Yeah, so to kind of sum up here,

410
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,000
it sounds like you, you kind of
have a, it doesn't, it doesn't

411
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,300
feel like you had a faith crisis
around so much the gospel as you

412
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:34,900
did maybe with like church
leadership, and church culture

413
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,300
and maybe are the mark Hoffman
thinks.

414
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:41,600
So so your Crisis isn't
necessarily centered around

415
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:49,100
Doctrine or around truth claims
but more maybe the structure and

416
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,100
and ldi.
Exactly.

417
00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:53,400
Would that be?
Would that be a fair assessment?

418
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,100
Yeah, and I did have a major
problem.

419
00:25:56,100 --> 00:25:58,900
You got to realize too back then
I was a Democrat.

420
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,700
And so I really had an issue
with Ezra Taft.

421
00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:07,000
Benson fact, my dream was in the
next life just a Hound as or tap

422
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,500
Benson and debate him and really
Hound on him.

423
00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:16,600
But we can get into that later.
He was my favorite LDS process.

424
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,500
Oh, he's oh, he's awesome.
He's very intriguing.

425
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,400
You know, I've come around now.
Anyway, I still am liberal on

426
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:30,300
certain subjects, but gosh.
I had to admit to myself and I

427
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:35,000
was in college at suu.
Even though I was a Democrat, I

428
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,900
had to admit president Benson
had some good points.

429
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,500
I had to, and yeah, I had an
issue with Brigham Young but

430
00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:44,700
yeah, you're right.
It wasn't so much Doctrine as

431
00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:48,000
much as cultural things.
Yeah, that's a good way to put

432
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,700
it.
So how did you, how did you

433
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:56,700
manage to work past those?
Well, Interestingly enough in

434
00:26:56,700 --> 00:27:03,100
2010.
My cousin introduced me to grow

435
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,500
will call Gina.
That's not her real name, but

436
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:11,600
for her protection, I'm not
using her real name and I was

437
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,500
also friends with the girl, as
still am friends with a girl,

438
00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:20,200
use her real name, Ashley, she
won't mind if I use her real

439
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,500
name.
And Gina and Ashley were two

440
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,300
really different people.
I'm still friends with Ashley

441
00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:30,100
today.
Ashley knew that I was going

442
00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:32,600
through a faith crisis.
She's not a member, by the way,

443
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,900
but she was with me during this
whole time and I'll admit at the

444
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:41,600
time, Ashley just fed into more
of my faith crisis.

445
00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:45,800
And this was at a time when I
was working.

446
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,200
As a customer service
representative, I don't know if

447
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,500
I should say the name.
But I was working as a customer

448
00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:57,000
service representative and my
cousin called said Kevin, how do

449
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,300
you feel about dating?
Someone that's older than you

450
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,700
said, I don't care.
And she said, well, she's really

451
00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:07,400
nice, she's LDS, she went on a
mission, I thought, okay?

452
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,700
I'm not planning to be active in
this church, much longer, but go

453
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:16,500
ahead.
Well, as we started talking Gina

454
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:20,800
and I the girl that my cousin
set me up with I started

455
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:26,300
thinking, okay, I may not be the
most devout LDS person.

456
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,200
But gosh, darnit Gina's, what I
want Gina has the same values.

457
00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:38,000
Gina understands the whole
concept of food storage Gina

458
00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:45,400
understands intuition better
than Ashley, He'll this is the

459
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,700
girl, I want a girl like this
and Gina and I had a

460
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:52,700
heart-to-heart discussion one
night.

461
00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:57,500
I told her, I I am not the most
devout member of the church.

462
00:28:57,500 --> 00:29:04,200
I said something to that effect
and I don't remember what

463
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,300
happened in that whole
conversation to be honest, but I

464
00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:12,800
could not sleep that night.
I felt like I had to make a huge

465
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,100
decision.
Here.

466
00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:17,600
Was I going to stay in the
church or not?

467
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,900
I felt like this was a real
Awakening moment.

468
00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:22,900
I felt like God was saying,
Okay, Kevin.

469
00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:26,300
Do you want it or not?
Are you in or are you out?

470
00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:28,900
And I really had to think about
it.

471
00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:34,800
I think I only got two hours of
sleep that night And at the

472
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,000
time, it was more for Gina sake.
I thought.

473
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,000
Yeah, I'm in now, maybe it was
for the wrong reasons and

474
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,500
ironically enough Gina.
And I had a bad breakup Gina was

475
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:53,400
not The Devout LDS woman that
she came across as being but it

476
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,700
made me think about what I
really wanted and so slowly.

477
00:29:56,700 --> 00:29:59,000
But surely I got back into the
faith.

478
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,700
So, yeah.
So you went back, but did you

479
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:09,900
ever have like those cultural
problems?

480
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:11,900
Kind of resolved?
Or did you just say?

481
00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:14,500
Okay, this is probably just
something I'm going to have to

482
00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:17,300
live with.
If I want to remain in the LDS

483
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:23,200
church, I would say a little bit
of both, you know, it's a funny

484
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,000
thing when you get older.
The less things bother you,

485
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,900
right?
I still have issues with the

486
00:30:29,900 --> 00:30:36,100
culture but I have learned to
separate that from the doctrine,

487
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,600
right?
And if you're going to base your

488
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,500
testimony, I was listening to a
good podcast this weekend.

489
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,300
It's a come follow him podcast
from John by the way and Hank

490
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:52,900
Smith if you're if you're going
to base your testimony on an

491
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:57,900
apostle or on the Doctrine, or
on an apostle.

492
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,500
Then you're screwed.
That's not what they said.

493
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:05,100
But that's basically what they
said and many words and I

494
00:31:05,108 --> 00:31:06,300
thought.
Yeah, that's right.

495
00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:07,800
Look at all the things that have
happened.

496
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,900
That I have issues with the
vaccine.

497
00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:14,300
The August 12th letter, the way
that the church handled covid.

498
00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:18,000
Now I think the church handled
covid right in the beginning

499
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,800
because we didn't know much
about it and again, it's a

500
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,800
worldwide church and so yeah,
during the first month or two, I

501
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,700
also think there's other reasons
we can get into later about why.

502
00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:32,900
Why the church shut down the way
it did, but for heaven's sakes,

503
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,300
after the third month, open back
up this.

504
00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:40,800
We know that this is a control
issue now and the church was

505
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,800
taking its own sweet time.
So yeah, I do have issues with

506
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,700
some of the church policies in
the culture but the doctrine to

507
00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:52,000
me, makes sense.
Sure, sure.

508
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,800
And what about the Hoffman
stuff?

509
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,000
Because that's, that is an
interesting period of time

510
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,700
within the old DS church.
Because if I'm not mistaken the

511
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:05,000
church paid an exorbitant amount
of money for what would be

512
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,400
later.
Yeah, the salamander letter,

513
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,400
right?
Well, the salamander letter,

514
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,400
actually, I can tell you what
happened with the salamander

515
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:18,100
letter, the salamander letter.
I was actually, I believe you

516
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:24,500
Steve Christensen was going to
buy it and then this guy Elder

517
00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:26,100
Swardson.
I can't remember his first

518
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:28,100
president sorts and he was
ironically enough.

519
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:31,500
The president of the mission, I
served in about a decade and a

520
00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:34,600
half later.
Let's see.

521
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,900
It decade and four years later.
And eventually present sorts in

522
00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:43,200
a deliver it to the church.
It was a mess.

523
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,600
I just came to the conclusion.
Maybe the general authorities

524
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:52,300
wanted to believe so bad that it
was real, you know, how many

525
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:55,000
times have we come across
something?

526
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,700
Or how many times have we
received the gift of

527
00:32:57,700 --> 00:32:59,400
discernment?
That said, no Kevin.

528
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,800
You shouldn't go to this place?
No, Kevin.

529
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,500
You shouldn't hang out with
these people, but I did anyway.

530
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,600
And I paid for it and actually
reading the salamander, the book

531
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,500
again.
The second time I realized, yes,

532
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:16,800
I think the general authorities
were suspicious of Mark Hofmann

533
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,300
before the bombing, they didn't
publicly admit it, but I think

534
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,400
they were based on some things
that I'd read in that book.

535
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:28,600
I realized that the second time
now, don't take offense to this,

536
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,800
but I pushed back here a little
bit on this.

537
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:36,200
Okay?
because, Even if they had some

538
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:41,200
doubts, wouldn't you go to Great
Lengths to kind of verify what

539
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:48,000
it is, Hoffman's pedaling?
And then also, I can kind of by

540
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,400
the argument, if it's one or two
people that, hey, we just really

541
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,900
want this to be true, right?
Yeah.

542
00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:58,300
But there's, there's essentially
15 of them up there.

543
00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:05,000
On the top shelf of leadership.
So Like nobody said, hey, we

544
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,199
should probably really stop and
think about this and maybe have

545
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:12,300
this vetted, a whole bunch?
Yeah, I don't know.

546
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,100
I'm not sure what the thinking
was on that.

547
00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:17,600
I wasn't there.
I'm not trying to soft-pedal

548
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:22,800
this sure, but Yeah, I thought
about that too.

549
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,400
Why didn't the church come out
and say we got to stop dealing

550
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,400
with this guy.
One of the problems I do have

551
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,300
with the church, my dad told me
this, when he served a mission

552
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:38,699
he and his second wife served, a
LDS mission images, everything

553
00:34:38,699 --> 00:34:42,300
to the church and having put
that in mind.

554
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:46,699
I don't like it, but I think the
church, the general authorities

555
00:34:46,699 --> 00:34:50,800
were thinking, oh my gosh, if we
finally, if we admit this We're

556
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,600
going to look bad.
Course looking back.

557
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,100
They should have done what you
did exactly what you said and I

558
00:34:56,100 --> 00:35:01,300
don't know if it's true but I
had heard that Bruce or McConkey

559
00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:03,700
was warning, that these
documents were fake.

560
00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:06,400
I don't know if that's true.
That's something I had heard.

561
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,500
If that's true, then good for
Bruce are McConkey for noticing

562
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:14,700
something that they didn't
write.

563
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,900
Yeah.
Yeah.

564
00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:19,900
Okay.
Wish I had a better answer.

565
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:21,700
No, no, that's good, that's
good.

566
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:27,100
I was wondering how you how you
manage to kind of get past that,

567
00:35:27,100 --> 00:35:28,000
right?
Yeah.

568
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,000
Because I think that these kind
of conversations are important

569
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,200
even though, you know, obviously
I'm a fundamentalist, your

570
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,500
develop LDS guy, I think we all
have that Dark Night of the Soul

571
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:42,500
at some point, right?
Where we have to sit down and

572
00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:45,600
reassess our beliefs, our
spiritual back.

573
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,700
Backs are up against the wall.
So I'm always curious how

574
00:35:48,700 --> 00:35:50,800
someone comes out on the other
side of that.

575
00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:55,500
Yeah.
Um some some guys just they go

576
00:35:55,500 --> 00:36:02,000
the other direction, where none
of it's true, in my case I went

577
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,000
the other direction was like no,
it's true and probably more true

578
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,600
than what anyone really knows
and then in your case you were

579
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,600
able to just to make it all work
which is great.

580
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,800
Well I'll tell you a funny
thing.

581
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:17,000
Believe it or not, Ashley kind
of Help me during this Faith

582
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,900
crisis towards the end.
He I say that because and I

583
00:36:21,908 --> 00:36:24,900
didn't realize it when I would
go back to Buffalo to see her.

584
00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:30,300
I was trying to get Ashley to
date me and we had a little too

585
00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:33,200
much fun, but we won't go there.
We're still good friends though.

586
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:40,100
And It was interesting because
when I went back to Buffalo

587
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:44,900
people, including Ashley,
thought I was very Ultra

588
00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:48,100
conservative, but I go back to
Utah.

589
00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:54,200
I get just the opposite reaction
and I thought, what am I

590
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,200
supposed to be an
ultraconservative and Buffalo

591
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,700
New York, but not in Salt Lake
and it took me a little bit of

592
00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:07,600
time, but I realized the
cultures Were very different.

593
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,600
Well, I realized that in the
beginning but it didn't really

594
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,900
sink in Gosh a family, I'm
Buffalo New York.

595
00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:17,100
Not a member of the church not
raised in a religious

596
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:18,900
background.
Oh man.

597
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:20,700
That's like watching the TV
show.

598
00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:23,400
Roseanne quite frankly.
Yeah.

599
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,100
Yeah there there is some
Regional differences, right?

600
00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:30,100
I live.
Oh yeah, I live for a few years

601
00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:34,100
out on the eastern shore of
Maryland and like they're

602
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:37,000
they're Republican.
I mean they're dead.

603
00:37:37,300 --> 00:37:41,000
They're Republicans would be are
Democrats, right?

604
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,900
And they're Democrats would be
our communist mean it's there.

605
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:48,200
There, there is a little bit of
difference there.

606
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,500
Regionally speaking.
Yeah, absolutely.

607
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:59,000
And so I think the other thing
that helped to with the faith

608
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,200
crisis of the, I introduced
Ashley to some friends of mine

609
00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:07,700
that were developed in a still
are devout LDS and I think the

610
00:38:07,700 --> 00:38:10,700
Ashley softened, her heart
towards the religion and I came

611
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:16,000
back in slowly but surely and
yeah it was probably different

612
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:21,100
than most people's Faith crisis
has but yeah Yeah, I don't think

613
00:38:21,100 --> 00:38:24,900
there's such thing as a typical
Faith crisis.

614
00:38:25,300 --> 00:38:28,900
I think there may be some common
things that everybody wrestles

615
00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:33,000
with, but I think that by and
large, it's it, you know,

616
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,800
they're very unique and
individual.

617
00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:40,200
So so, you know I'll tell you
one more thing about that when I

618
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:45,400
was reading the book salamander
I don't know if this was a

619
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,000
guilty conscience, I don't know
if my mom really was there, but

620
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,700
I remember having a dream and I
said something to my mom and she

621
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:55,800
kind of raised her voice at me
saying, you don't have a

622
00:38:55,808 --> 00:38:58,800
testimony.
That's when I woke up and I

623
00:38:58,808 --> 00:39:01,200
thought geez if that's if that
was my mom.

624
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,100
Yeah she's right.
Wow, kind of made me think a

625
00:39:06,107 --> 00:39:10,500
little so so what's your
testimony based around now?

626
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:16,000
Then Well, I based it on the
doctrine, I do believe in the

627
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,500
Book of Mormon.
I do believe in the line of

628
00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:20,100
authority.
I do.

629
00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:24,600
You know, a lot of one of the
reasons I agreed to stay in the

630
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,200
church, believe it or not, was
the social aspect.

631
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,800
I liked the social networking.
We're not talking about Facebook

632
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,300
or any of that, we're talking
about social that, you know, you

633
00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:38,500
go to a place and I realize that
this happens in every religion,

634
00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:43,600
but it's really prevent really
obvious here and I'm sure it's

635
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,000
probably true.
And your church, you move

636
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,000
somewhere, you're automatically
plugged in, with a network of

637
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,900
people.
I can call up anyone.

638
00:39:52,900 --> 00:39:55,200
Well I should say it, but
there's somebody I can call and

639
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,100
say, oh I need a ride to this
place.

640
00:39:57,100 --> 00:39:59,100
Can you come get me tomorrow or
whatever?

641
00:39:59,100 --> 00:40:04,100
Sure that's not the only reason
but that was one of the reasons

642
00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:09,400
I decided to stay in and it
really You know, it's one of

643
00:40:09,408 --> 00:40:12,700
those things I lived in Little
Rock Arkansas for a while.

644
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:16,300
I did not like my ward and if I
didn't have a testimony of the

645
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:19,300
church, I would have left right
there, right?

646
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:21,900
Yeah.
Gotcha.

647
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:29,000
So what got you into podcasting?
Well, that's an interesting

648
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,700
story.
I've always had a heavy interest

649
00:40:31,700 --> 00:40:36,200
in radio since 1987 a real
interest.

650
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,300
And I remember asking my dad
would night how the because I

651
00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:44,000
had a ghetto blaster.
When I was six years old, maybe

652
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,800
those old ghetto blasters, with
the big speakers, say what you

653
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,500
want about those ghetto
blasters.

654
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:51,200
But they had phenomenal
reception, didn't they?

655
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,800
Yeah.
Oh specially on the am dial.

656
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,500
Anyway, I had an old ghetto
blaster.

657
00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:04,800
And I used to think that the
music I was hearing was live in

658
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:09,200
concert somewhere in Boise, or
Ontario or somewhere.

659
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,000
And I just remember riding home
from Salt Lake because we were

660
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,200
there for a family vacation over
Thanksgiving.

661
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,400
We were writing back late
Saturday night and I thought my

662
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,900
might this can't be right
because if I'm hearing these

663
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:27,200
songs and how come the people
I'm hearing different songs.

664
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,000
People just don't travel around.
Instantly and perform and leave.

665
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,300
And I thought furthermore,
nobody, I know is seeing is

666
00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:39,500
hearing them perform on the
radio.

667
00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:43,300
This can't be right.
And so I asked my dad, how is

668
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:47,200
this happening?
And he expired that radio

669
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,800
stations have a transmitter and
he didn't get too technical

670
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,700
because I'm not sure that my dad
knew it all either, but he knew

671
00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:57,500
enough being an engineer, he
said radio stations of a

672
00:41:57,500 --> 00:42:02,200
transmitter they transmit radio
waves and that's how radios pick

673
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,700
him up and he explained and my
dad didn't know anything about

674
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:08,800
soundboards.
Well, he did he probably knew a

675
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,100
little something but not much.
He just said everything you're

676
00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:13,200
hearing is coming over the
microphone.

677
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:17,000
I thought oh which was a true,
but I got my dad.

678
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,100
You know, how do you explain
that to a kid?

679
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,100
That's seven years old?
You know, it wasn't my dad's

680
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:28,500
fault necessarily, he did the
best he could and I just

681
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:31,800
thought, wouldn't it be nice?
Wouldn't it be cool if I had a

682
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:38,100
transmitter in my bedroom and I
could transmit all over Ontario

683
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,300
with the records that I have
because I had little kids

684
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:43,600
records.
Yes, we had records back then.

685
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:49,700
I had that I thought well I had
that I had to go to my sister's

686
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:56,800
choir concert my second, oldest
sister and I thought well,

687
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,400
wouldn't it be nice if I had a
transmitter and I could carry

688
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,700
the transmitter and microphone
to her concert and broadcast it

689
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:04,800
throughout the whole community
of Ontario.

690
00:43:06,100 --> 00:43:09,700
And then I went to my brother's
baby basketball game Church ball

691
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:10,800
game.
When it be nice, if I could

692
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,500
carry this transmitter on the
microphone, I can announce the

693
00:43:13,500 --> 00:43:16,600
ball game and you know, there's
all these things.

694
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:22,000
I was thinking of, I eventually
got into radio but podcasting I

695
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,100
was in podcasting before
podcasting was cool.

696
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,500
I got into podcasting in 2006,
thanks to my friend.

697
00:43:30,500 --> 00:43:36,300
Ashley, we had started talking
again, we reconnected Which is

698
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:38,500
another story.
I'll get into maybe at a later

699
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:42,600
time, but we reconnected and I
told her about how I'd like to

700
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:48,900
do podcasting, but I didn't know
how, and she sent me a link and

701
00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:52,500
it's, it was a company with no
longer round called G cast.

702
00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:54,700
And I thought, oh, it sounds
interesting.

703
00:43:55,700 --> 00:44:00,400
So, I signed up and started
doing podcasts the worst way you

704
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,400
could ever do it over the phone.
That is the worst way you could

705
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,700
ever do a podcast.
Sounded terrible but that's all

706
00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:11,500
I had back then sure.
And then I figured out how to

707
00:44:11,500 --> 00:44:14,300
mix all, you know, I figured out
how to save what I was doing to

708
00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:16,700
a playlist.
Mix it all together and publish

709
00:44:16,700 --> 00:44:19,400
it.
And so I was doing this before

710
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,600
most people knew what podcasts
were and then G cast.

711
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,900
Went out of business, I had
moved on, I was working customer

712
00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:29,700
service, I really didn't have
time to do anything.

713
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:33,300
What about podcasting?
I felt that I'd probably get

714
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:41,300
back into it again.
And eventually in 2015, my got

715
00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:43,800
back into it.
I was dating a girl and she just

716
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,900
nagged me like no other to get
into it.

717
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:51,500
Finally, I was sick of her
nagging me about it and I got

718
00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:54,700
into it just to shut her up.
I got a website up and running

719
00:44:54,700 --> 00:44:58,000
and everything.
I'm glad she didn't tag me about

720
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,400
it though, because one of the
reasons I got back into

721
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,000
podcasting is I wanted to
interview Cliven, Cliven Bundy.

722
00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:07,900
Hmm.
Which I never did.

723
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:09,900
But I interviewed a man, which
was better.

724
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,000
So yeah that and then I started.
So now I do to podcasts one is

725
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,100
the only us live podcast in the
other is canning plus 7A

726
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:21,300
prepping podcast.
Okay.

727
00:45:21,900 --> 00:45:26,100
Yeah.
So I've listened to your podcast

728
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:32,500
a little bit and the thing that
comes across to me is that you

729
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:38,900
You don't mind necessarily
calling out the church when you

730
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:41,100
feel that like they're wrong on
something?

731
00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:44,500
No I don't not at all.
Do you worry about your

732
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:48,500
membership at all?
Oh, a little bit but I have to

733
00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:51,800
remind myself that Jesus Christ
wasn't popular.

734
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,000
And I also have to remind
myself.

735
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,700
I can't remember the whole story
that there was a guy in Germany

736
00:45:56,700 --> 00:46:00,500
that was disobeying the laws of
the land, and he got

737
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:03,600
excommunicated.
And eventually after he passed

738
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,600
away or something, or when he
made it back to the States, Lee

739
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,600
reinstated his membership, I
just have to.

740
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:15,900
Remember, God can fix it.
It may not be in this life but

741
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:18,700
it can be in the next life,
right?

742
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,900
And just because I'm
excommunicated or whatever, and

743
00:46:21,900 --> 00:46:25,800
I'm not looking to be, but if it
happens, doesn't mean I'm going

744
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,100
to go out and be permiss youis
and drink and do drugs and all

745
00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:33,700
that, right?
Well because because that's one

746
00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:35,300
of the fascinating things,
right?

747
00:46:35,300 --> 00:46:40,200
Because that, that LDS church
culture, and I feel like I can

748
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,200
speak to it because I was a
member of the LDS church for 20

749
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,900
years.
There is a certain amount of

750
00:46:46,900 --> 00:46:50,100
you're going to tow the line or
reap the consequences, right?

751
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:53,100
Absolutely.
And it stems back to and I think

752
00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:55,200
the church does a terrible job
at this.

753
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,300
But it stems back to what we
were told is kids what we taught

754
00:46:59,300 --> 00:47:02,500
in the mission, the prophet he
receives Revelation and that

755
00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:05,900
primary song, Follow The
Prophet, follow the prophet,

756
00:47:05,900 --> 00:47:09,200
follow the prophet, don't go
astray, right?

757
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,900
Well yeah, so the church needs
to do a much better job at

758
00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:16,600
telling us there's a difference
between policy and Doctrine.

759
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,900
You don't have to agree with the
policies.

760
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,000
Now, that doesn't mean go
disagree, don't that doesn't

761
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:29,400
mean disagree with every policy
don't be, don't be rebellious

762
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,500
just for the sake of being
rebellious.

763
00:47:32,700 --> 00:47:35,200
You know, what?
But what happens when that

764
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:42,100
policy conflicts with doctor
Well, what how?

765
00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:47,200
I give me an example.
Well, I'll just use the famous

766
00:47:47,300 --> 00:47:50,600
fundamentalist one right,
obviously, plural.

767
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,200
Marriage is still Doctrine.
Mmm.

768
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,700
And if it's still Doctrine, then
it still requires adherence.

769
00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:03,900
So if you're not adhering to it
or at the very least, if it's

770
00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:08,700
not available, you have a policy
that conflicts with an eternal

771
00:48:08,700 --> 00:48:13,100
principle.
Well to be fair, I haven't

772
00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:16,700
studied polygamy as much as I
should my understanding of

773
00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:18,500
polygamy.
I don't think it was meant to be

774
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:22,700
around forever and ever know you
did tell me about Brigham

775
00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:25,700
Young's supposedly said some.
And I know that John Taylor said

776
00:48:25,700 --> 00:48:32,200
that polygamy would never leave
the Earth. and, I'm not sure and

777
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,900
I guess it's just because I
haven't studied upon it that

778
00:48:34,900 --> 00:48:39,900
much, but I'm under the
impression, I don't know that

779
00:48:39,900 --> 00:48:43,000
polygamy was supposed to be
around forever and ever and

780
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:49,500
ever, and I could be wrong.
But I do know and I understand

781
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:54,200
why the church got rid of it
partly because Utah wanted to

782
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,900
become a state.
And in order to get, you know,

783
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,000
get rid of polygamy or in order
to do that, we had to get rid of

784
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,500
polygamy.
Interestingly enough.

785
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:04,200
There are people that we're
going down to Mexico, to be

786
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,900
polygamists.
So I have to study more on

787
00:49:08,900 --> 00:49:12,000
polygamy to really get the grasp
of it.

788
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,700
But I was always under the
impression that I die.

789
00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:18,800
I don't think in my hardest of
Hearts, I don't think that it

790
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,100
was meant to be around an
eternal thing.

791
00:49:21,100 --> 00:49:27,600
Now, interestingly enough, in my
personal opinion, this is just

792
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,700
Kevin Williams talking.
I do believe that it will be

793
00:49:31,700 --> 00:49:34,300
reinstated.
Look at the wickedness of the

794
00:49:34,300 --> 00:49:37,400
world today.
Look at that, scripture in

795
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,600
Isaiah in sick of Nephi were
talks about seven women to one

796
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,500
man.
Now, some may argue that

797
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,700
Scripture may have been
fulfilled but there's going to

798
00:49:45,700 --> 00:49:48,900
be a lot of single people.
I think a lot of single females

799
00:49:48,900 --> 00:49:54,300
in the next life that we want to
be married to a righteous

800
00:49:54,300 --> 00:49:57,600
priesthood holder, not saying
that I'm the end, all be all,

801
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,300
but in their mind.
And so maybe God not my opinion,

802
00:50:03,300 --> 00:50:06,800
God had his reasons for taking
it away but that doesn't mean

803
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:13,100
it's not going to come back.
I think it'll have to Yeah, I

804
00:50:13,100 --> 00:50:16,100
guess I land on that little bit
differently obviously just

805
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:19,200
because it's okay and ya know,
these are have discussions to

806
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,300
have right?
That's how the other reasons

807
00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:25,100
that I had had you on.
After I did yours was to show

808
00:50:25,100 --> 00:50:28,800
that we can have a respectful
dialogue and dis Asher, right?

809
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,100
I think now that's hugely
important in in what it is.

810
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:37,200
We do as podcasters so and we
need to have these discussions,

811
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,300
I'm glad you're pushing back
against making me.

812
00:50:39,300 --> 00:50:46,200
Think we need to have 14. don't,
we've lost the We've lost the, I

813
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,000
don't know what the word is, but
we've lost.

814
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,200
We've lost the ability to
disagree agreeably.

815
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,300
Yeah.
We've lost the ability to

816
00:50:54,300 --> 00:50:55,800
dialogue.
Yes.

817
00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,000
So we need these conversations.
Yeah, absolutely.

818
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,000
Absolutely.
Because I do believe there's

819
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,400
more that connects us than
separates us.

820
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:06,200
Oh, absolutely.
Yes.

821
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,000
I told you on the podcast.
I think you and I probably agree

822
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,100
on 90% of the issues out there,
probably, right?

823
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,000
So, The, I feel like that then
in our current religious climate

824
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:22,000
in our current political
climate, that more conversations

825
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,800
like this need to be need, did
need to happen.

826
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,400
So I absolutely have you gotten
any pushback from like

827
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,500
leadership or anything like that
for your podcast?

828
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:34,900
You know, I haven't yet.
Oddly enough.

829
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,900
I don't think my Bishop has ever
listened.

830
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:41,100
I know some people my word of
listened and they really liked

831
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,600
the podcast.
I came out against the church.

832
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:50,400
Supporting the respect for
marriage act, right?

833
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,400
We'll get there in a sec.
Yeah, I'm just more secure so

834
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,300
far.
I did get pushback from a friend

835
00:51:57,300 --> 00:52:03,200
of mine but I expected that and
these older and no, well if you

836
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,900
don't read, come follow me.
If you don't do this, this this

837
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,000
Statistics are high that people
follow a trying to mate.

838
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,500
Give me a guilt trip.
Obviously didn't work, right.

839
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,500
Right?
We do make, we kind of touched

840
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:19,200
on it earlier.
You kind of thought that the

841
00:52:19,207 --> 00:52:21,700
church should have opened up
quicker than what they did.

842
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:23,200
Oh, I do.
Yeah.

843
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,000
It's as if you read the book
salamander letter salamander,

844
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:36,100
Hugh Pinnock was confronted by
law enforcement and Hugh Panic.

845
00:52:36,100 --> 00:52:39,400
Just was quiet and I can't
remember who was interviewing

846
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,600
him to get information and he
said it's okay to admit that

847
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,400
you're upset.
It's okay to admit that you're

848
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,900
mad.
I think part of the problem is

849
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,700
that generation.
You know the generals I don't

850
00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:54,200
know how old you Pinnock was
back in 85.

851
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,400
Use definitely older I'd say 70s
and 80s.

852
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,700
Unfortunately back.
That generation.

853
00:53:01,100 --> 00:53:02,900
You did not talk about
depression.

854
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:06,500
You did not talk about your
feelings, especially if you were

855
00:53:06,500 --> 00:53:10,900
a male now, thank goodness,
we've changed, but I think

856
00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:13,200
that's probably part of the
problem, right?

857
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,000
There is these guys were old and
they didn't talk.

858
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,300
They didn't want to open up much
about how embarrassed they were.

859
00:53:21,300 --> 00:53:24,700
That's just something, a male
didn't do in their gym, in their

860
00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:31,300
day. and I hope that we as a
church has changed have changed

861
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:35,900
since then I hope Yeah, I think
so.

862
00:53:35,900 --> 00:53:39,600
I think maybe we've
overcorrected too far, but yeah,

863
00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:45,000
but I think overall, you know,
they look as time goes on

864
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,700
there's no doubt that some
things do get better, right?

865
00:53:48,700 --> 00:53:51,800
I mean, yeah, we have less
people starving today in the

866
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,500
world than ever before.
That's a great thing.

867
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,000
Now, there's other things that
get worse, but yeah, I would say

868
00:53:58,100 --> 00:54:00,500
that.
There's probably been some some

869
00:54:00,500 --> 00:54:02,900
good Headway made there.
So yeah.

870
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:06,100
So you kind of Eventually clap a
church came out with those

871
00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:08,700
essays on polygamy and things
like that.

872
00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:12,200
And so the church is starting to
finally open up about some

873
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:19,500
things Yeah, II.
Reading some of those essays.

874
00:54:19,500 --> 00:54:23,300
You can tell that there is a lot
because the, it's not like the

875
00:54:23,300 --> 00:54:27,000
church had.
It's not like they're

876
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,600
authoritative, authoritative
works by somebody out of the

877
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,300
Quorum of The Twelve Apostles,
right?

878
00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:39,700
So, so you get guys, who are
Quasi, you hunt quasi, some some

879
00:54:39,700 --> 00:54:44,200
pretty big named Progressive
Mormons, they got in there and

880
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,400
without naming names and and you
could tell that there was There

881
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,800
were definitely Parts in all of
them where you could tell they

882
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,100
were grasping at straws so to
speak, right?

883
00:54:55,100 --> 00:54:58,000
They were like, well, we really
don't know, but here's an idea.

884
00:54:58,300 --> 00:55:01,800
And so it's hard to call those
like authoritative.

885
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,300
You know what I mean?
Because, yeah, they're so full

886
00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:10,400
of of bias individual bias that
that, I think it makes it hard

887
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:15,500
to make them authoritative.
Yeah but at least the church is

888
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:19,000
finally coming out and say yes
with this did happen and yeah I

889
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,900
agree with what you're saying
but yeah at least they're coming

890
00:55:21,900 --> 00:55:24,000
out and saying yeah.
We're not going to be shy about

891
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,300
it anymore.
Yeah something like this

892
00:55:26,300 --> 00:55:30,700
happened.
Well, I think they're I think

893
00:55:30,700 --> 00:55:33,000
the church is still a little shy
about it, right?

894
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,700
I'm I've always said, plural.
Marriage is like the church's

895
00:55:36,700 --> 00:55:39,000
drunk uncle that shows up.
Oh gosh.

896
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,200
Yeah.
Thanksgiving dinner, right?

897
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,600
You're just yeah to say
something uncomfortable.

898
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,900
And you get the feeling like,
like, polygamy is definitely

899
00:55:46,900 --> 00:55:49,500
that issue.
So what about?

900
00:55:49,500 --> 00:55:51,600
I don't think polygamy wasn't a
statement, right?

901
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,500
Go ahead.
No, no, you're good.

902
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:55,900
What was your feelings during
covid?

903
00:55:55,900 --> 00:55:59,600
I mean, did you feel like the
church handled that okay at

904
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,100
first?
Yes, and here's why and I could

905
00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:06,000
be wrong, this is just one man's
opinion.

906
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,900
When the church shut down, I had
just come off the airplane.

907
00:56:12,900 --> 00:56:16,800
Well, I was in an airplane, I
was in the air and what I found

908
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:21,000
out the church was shutting shut
down abruptly, I just come off

909
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,600
the airplane.
My brother told me.

910
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,600
I turned on my phone was blowing
up with notifications about it.

911
00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:31,800
Mhm.
And I thought, geez, I'm

912
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,800
surprised they took this bowl of
a move.

913
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:38,000
Usually, they leave it up to the
individual Awards.

914
00:56:38,100 --> 00:56:44,400
Steaks, or whatever.
And I was a little taken aback,

915
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:49,200
but I also thought well, okay,
but this is a worldwide church.

916
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,400
This there is elderly people.
And this, you know, let's face

917
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,900
it.
Covid did affect elderly, people

918
00:56:55,900 --> 00:57:01,100
much more than someone like you
and I and, you know, let's face

919
00:57:01,100 --> 00:57:03,600
it, there's a elderly people who
are Temple workers.

920
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:09,200
So yeah, as surprised as I was,
I could see why the church shut

921
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,700
down.
I also think And this is just my

922
00:57:12,700 --> 00:57:16,300
personal opinion and maybe I
received a little cognitive,

923
00:57:16,300 --> 00:57:21,000
dissonance theory. but as the
church was, shut down and my

924
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:25,000
brother, and I and his family
were doing church at home, I

925
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:30,400
thought You know what?
Maybe there's a deeper reason.

926
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:35,400
Why the church shut down maybe
the Lord or a president Nelson

927
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:40,700
or both?
Want to show us yes, times will

928
00:57:40,700 --> 00:57:44,000
get worse covid is nothing
compared to what's coming up.

929
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:50,500
Maybe this was a time to prepare
us to have home church if things

930
00:57:50,500 --> 00:57:52,400
got really bad and I could be
wrong.

931
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:58,900
But that was my way of thinking
but as covid-19 I became

932
00:57:58,900 --> 00:58:02,600
disgusted with the fact that the
church was so afraid to open up

933
00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:07,300
as we learn more about how this
virus Works, how it mutated.

934
00:58:07,300 --> 00:58:10,000
I always thought that the
government was carrying it far

935
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,900
too overboard from day one, but
I was willing to give the church

936
00:58:14,900 --> 00:58:19,900
a little room for reasons.
I had mentioned but I thought,

937
00:58:19,900 --> 00:58:22,600
okay, we've obviously it's
obvious.

938
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:26,500
We've got some people at the top
here who are progressives

939
00:58:26,500 --> 00:58:30,400
liberals, whatever.
Well, it's obvious that they are

940
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:33,500
buying into this fear-mongering
crap.

941
00:58:33,500 --> 00:58:39,000
The most they could have done is
say, we'll leave it to the

942
00:58:39,100 --> 00:58:42,100
individual areas which I think
eventually they did.

943
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,900
But then on Church opened, I
thought it was Goofy.

944
00:58:45,900 --> 00:58:49,100
I remember going to church, we
couldn't sing a song, we just

945
00:58:49,100 --> 00:58:51,700
hear the Oregon.
And I thought, what kind of crap

946
00:58:51,700 --> 00:58:56,300
is this?
And everybody was so afraid to

947
00:58:56,300 --> 00:59:00,500
touch each other shaky.
Each other's hand and I thought,

948
00:59:00,500 --> 00:59:03,100
geez, come on.
Can we just get over this now, I

949
00:59:03,100 --> 00:59:07,300
didn't have a problem with them
sterilizing the benches after a

950
00:59:07,300 --> 00:59:10,500
Sacrament rating because it was
still alive.

951
00:59:10,500 --> 00:59:12,500
And well, I didn't have a
problem with that.

952
00:59:13,300 --> 00:59:19,600
But for heaven's sakes, let's
open wholeheartedly here and I

953
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:25,000
think, Unfortunately, they were
letting their fear interfere

954
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:34,600
with reality so, I Have somebody
who shouldn't say.

955
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:39,200
I have somebody, I have a friend
who works up at Church

956
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:43,800
Headquarters, and what he had
told me is that it was all legal

957
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,700
issues, right?
How could a bad that the church

958
00:59:48,700 --> 00:59:51,800
felt like if someone got sick at
church, they could be liable.

959
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,400
For a lawsuit is what it really
boiled down to.

960
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:01,400
And so by following verbatim,
whatever the government told, Um

961
01:00:01,408 --> 01:00:03,600
to do they could avoid those
lawsuits.

962
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:09,000
This kind of what I was told now
well that could be but and then

963
01:00:09,100 --> 01:00:11,600
I have to ask the question,
okay?

964
01:00:12,900 --> 01:00:15,500
At what point do we just buck
the system?

965
01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:18,600
I'm not suggesting the church,
go, all anti-government, I don't

966
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,200
believe.
That's a good thing at all.

967
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:22,000
But, at what point do we just
say?

968
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,200
Okay, we're just going to risk
the lawsuits now, look, Kevin

969
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,500
White have we?
It has it has the church ever

970
01:00:30,300 --> 01:00:31,900
bucked?
The government.

971
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,600
Well.
I think you can make the case in

972
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:41,400
the very, very hard way.
I've I think in the beginning

973
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:46,300
maybe I mean, Joseph and
Brigham, but I think I think and

974
01:00:46,300 --> 01:00:50,000
Taylor obviously, but I think
after that, I think we said a

975
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:54,200
pretty good president of well,
we'll play ball, right?

976
01:00:56,300 --> 01:01:01,800
Yes, unfortunately and it's a
hard light to draw because the

977
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,300
church is trying to get into all
these countries.

978
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,800
But have would it be appropriate
for them to leave a country at

979
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,800
some point?
Just say, okay, the government's

980
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,000
not letting us practice here
anymore.

981
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,900
Oh, here's your come.
Follow me material.

982
01:01:17,700 --> 01:01:20,300
Practice on your own.
Now you've done this before.

983
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:22,700
We didn't covid.
Here's your come follow me

984
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:27,400
material.
We are authorizing men of the

985
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,000
church.
The met, the father of the

986
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,700
households to administer the
sacrament or any iranica

987
01:01:31,700 --> 01:01:34,600
Melchizedek priesthood holder.
You're on your own.

988
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,100
Sorry, but the government's
kicking us out at, you know,

989
01:01:39,100 --> 01:01:41,600
what point, would they be
willing to do that?

990
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,600
Well I think you have to go
back.

991
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,900
I mean and I understand where
you're coming from on that, but

992
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:55,900
I guess we have to look back at
what what the church was

993
01:01:55,900 --> 01:01:59,900
originally doing, right?
It was it was gathering Israel.

994
01:02:00,700 --> 01:02:04,000
Yeah to America, right?
And so maybe maybe the answer

995
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:05,900
isn't a.
Here's your manual and talk to

996
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:08,800
you later.
Maybe the answer is well I guess

997
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,700
maybe we better start Gathering
again.

998
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:16,000
Yeah, and I don't know, you know
it's interesting you mentioned

999
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:20,700
that because on my mission a lot
of people wanted to come to Utah

1000
01:02:20,700 --> 01:02:26,500
and understandably.
So but I worried because I think

1001
01:02:26,500 --> 01:02:30,200
they got this impression that
when they got to Utah, all their

1002
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,700
problems would be solved.
Sure.

1003
01:02:33,100 --> 01:02:37,400
And I remember reading something
in the Ensign before we had the

1004
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:42,400
liahona magazine globally.
That the church wrote a letter

1005
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:47,800
say, don't come to the America.
Just because the church is here,

1006
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,100
you've got to grow this in your
own land.

1007
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:55,800
So I don't and I get it because
they want to have the church in

1008
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:00,900
other countries.
And I think my understanding

1009
01:03:00,900 --> 01:03:05,600
Gathering Zion probably has to
do with Gathering it in your own

1010
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:06,700
area.
Now, I don't know how that's

1011
01:03:06,700 --> 01:03:09,800
going to look in the last days
when things get really bad.

1012
01:03:11,900 --> 01:03:15,100
I don't know.
I I'm just thinking out loud

1013
01:03:15,100 --> 01:03:20,800
here, that maybe The church is
worried about coming to, you

1014
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:24,900
know, people coming to Utah
because, oh my gosh, we're here

1015
01:03:24,900 --> 01:03:28,500
in Utah.
And I know this David had that

1016
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:33,100
people outside of Utah, you may
have experienced this especially

1017
01:03:33,100 --> 01:03:37,300
when you go to Buffalo New York
or whatever they think.

1018
01:03:37,300 --> 01:03:40,600
Oh, David's from Utah.
Great.

1019
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,100
David's going to show us how
it's done.

1020
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:46,900
And maybe the church doesn't
want.

1021
01:03:46,900 --> 01:03:50,100
All of that is why it was what I
think personally I could be

1022
01:03:50,100 --> 01:03:54,400
wrong but I wonder if maybe
that's what they're because

1023
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:58,600
they're I think the church had
reasons to worry about people

1024
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:03,700
coming to Utah just to be part
of the church and I think they

1025
01:04:03,700 --> 01:04:06,500
wanted to warn people.
They just because you're in

1026
01:04:06,500 --> 01:04:08,800
Utah, doesn't mean your troubles
are going away?

1027
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:13,600
No, no, I can see that point of
view.

1028
01:04:13,700 --> 01:04:17,700
You, I guess my thought would be
as if the church the church

1029
01:04:17,700 --> 01:04:21,800
while it's definitely, you know.
Its headquarters is in Utah and

1030
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,100
yeah, large chunk of memberships
in Utah.

1031
01:04:24,700 --> 01:04:28,600
But but the church itself has
influenced, you know, as Mormon

1032
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:32,600
them is pretty Regional, right?
I mean, if we forget specially

1033
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,300
in the Intermountain, West
absolutely.

1034
01:04:34,300 --> 01:04:36,800
I was just going to say, if we
look at the Intermountain West

1035
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:40,000
there's a little bit of Utah and
every one of those States,

1036
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,600
right?
Oh yeah specially even where

1037
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,600
where I'm from But Ontario, we
were the minority.

1038
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:47,500
But gosh, it was enough of us
there.

1039
01:04:47,500 --> 01:04:50,100
We definitely made an influence.
I'll tell you that.

1040
01:04:50,100 --> 01:04:54,600
Right, right.
So so the, the space problem, I

1041
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:56,600
don't necessarily see it as an
issue.

1042
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,200
But yeah, no.
I just just just asking

1043
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,100
questions as all kiddo.
I think it's a good question

1044
01:05:04,100 --> 01:05:08,300
because let's face it.
If things got really bad with

1045
01:05:08,300 --> 01:05:11,100
the stake presidents, let's say
in Nova Scotia, be able to

1046
01:05:11,100 --> 01:05:13,500
handle, how would the area,
Authority handle it.

1047
01:05:13,700 --> 01:05:17,400
I think your question is valid
well not I'm not thinking from a

1048
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,400
stake president standpoint.
What?

1049
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:23,300
Yeah, what what I'm talking
about is let's say the

1050
01:05:23,300 --> 01:05:28,500
government of Take your pick can
well.

1051
01:05:28,500 --> 01:05:30,400
Left-handed, it seems to be
going through.

1052
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:33,300
Canada, seems to be going pretty
hardcore these days.

1053
01:05:33,700 --> 01:05:36,000
So let's just say, the
government of Canada was like,

1054
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:39,300
no, you know, I think that whole
Mormon thing, that's divisive

1055
01:05:39,300 --> 01:05:43,100
and that that's, you know,
teaching messages that we don't

1056
01:05:43,100 --> 01:05:45,200
approve of.
So we're just going to shut

1057
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,000
down.
Shut the church down here.

1058
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,100
Right.
Yeah, I mean I could easily see

1059
01:05:51,100 --> 01:05:54,200
the church sponsoring people
saying if you want to come,

1060
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:56,700
you've got to fill out a form.
You've got to come up with a

1061
01:05:56,700 --> 01:05:59,500
good reason.
But if you do all that and yeah,

1062
01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:02,000
will sponsor you either.
I don't see why the church

1063
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:06,000
couldn't do that eventually, I
guess I guess I look at that.

1064
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,900
And I say, okay.
So maybe that was the wisdom

1065
01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:15,200
that the Lord had in this this
Gathering process, right?

1066
01:06:15,300 --> 01:06:17,600
Uh-huh.
And we know from history from

1067
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:22,000
things that Joseph Smith had
said that the you would have the

1068
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:23,900
center stake of Zion and
Missouri.

1069
01:06:23,900 --> 01:06:28,200
But yet these the same patterns
of community would just keep

1070
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,700
expanding.
And so, as I look at that, I'm

1071
01:06:31,700 --> 01:06:34,700
like it, I feel like it's a
shame we really got away from

1072
01:06:34,700 --> 01:06:39,000
this, this idea of a Physical
Gathering because I think there

1073
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,000
was definite strength there,
right?

1074
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:45,100
Sure.
And and just like any sort of

1075
01:06:45,100 --> 01:06:48,800
society.
There there is a certain

1076
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:53,900
learning period where we're
certain values and customs and

1077
01:06:53,900 --> 01:06:56,000
practices.
I feel like need to be in part

1078
01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:00,900
in order to maintain that that
culture.

1079
01:07:00,900 --> 01:07:04,200
Right.
And by gathering, I think what

1080
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:09,300
we're seeing now is that That
the laws that were meant to

1081
01:07:09,300 --> 01:07:14,300
govern the church aren't
necessarily applied equally or

1082
01:07:14,300 --> 01:07:17,500
as well, as they should be,
because they don't have that

1083
01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:23,700
influence of gathering.
You know, you have a point.

1084
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:29,300
I do know that, And maybe this
is what you're alluding to.

1085
01:07:29,300 --> 01:07:32,500
When I was in Nova Scotia church
was very different.

1086
01:07:32,500 --> 01:07:33,800
Yeah.
We still had the three-hour

1087
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,800
block back then.
Yes, we still were studying the

1088
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:42,000
Brigham Young manual.
But while the culture was

1089
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:49,900
different, it was a hole in
maybe as that which are furry,

1090
01:07:49,900 --> 01:07:53,300
you're you're referring to but
because the the Utah culture is

1091
01:07:53,300 --> 01:07:56,900
so different than the culture of
Nova Scotia and so forth.

1092
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:03,500
Well, and I think we have to be
careful that that LDS culture

1093
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,300
definitely needs some tweaking,
Mormon culture needs some

1094
01:08:06,300 --> 01:08:09,000
tweaking, right?
We got a ways to go before we

1095
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,200
got this thing.
Dialed in and mastered.

1096
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:14,800
I do think that there is a bit
too much judgment that people

1097
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,800
cast upon each other, but you
don't get past those without

1098
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:22,899
trying, right?
The girl, the other thing that

1099
01:08:23,100 --> 01:08:30,000
that I would say to that is that
one of the reasons that I think

1100
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:33,100
the church is having such a
rough time right now, hope kind

1101
01:08:33,100 --> 01:08:38,200
of holding stuff together is
because there hasn't been this

1102
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:44,200
This shared the shared values,
right?

1103
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:48,100
And I don't believe that all
cultures and all societies are

1104
01:08:48,100 --> 01:08:51,600
equal in terms of what they
espouse right?

1105
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:56,200
Look, I'm a very devout, Mormon
fundamentalist, I live My

1106
01:08:56,200 --> 01:09:01,899
Religion to the utmost that I
can but I could never get behind

1107
01:09:03,399 --> 01:09:07,600
what they do in like Iraq or
Afghanistan.

1108
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:10,500
Where they throw.
Is off of a roof, right?

1109
01:09:10,500 --> 01:09:15,399
I find that out.
I find that appalling So,

1110
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:18,399
absolutely.
So this idea that all cultures

1111
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:21,100
are equal.
I don't buy that, right?

1112
01:09:21,100 --> 01:09:26,399
I just I can't get behind that
if Mormonism was what Joseph

1113
01:09:26,399 --> 01:09:28,600
said, it was right and keep in
mind.

1114
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:34,100
Joseph Smith, Never Once built a
chapel, he helped build

1115
01:09:34,100 --> 01:09:39,000
communities and temples.
So if the emphasis really is

1116
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:44,700
community, we as Mormons of all
Stripes, I feel like we haven't

1117
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:48,700
done a real good job of getting
back to that idea of gathering

1118
01:09:48,700 --> 01:09:54,200
like Joseph and Brigham really
pushed Well let me ask you this.

1119
01:09:56,300 --> 01:10:02,600
Well let me ask you this, did
Joseph Smith and I'm just asking

1120
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:05,600
because, you know, a whole lot
more about church history than I

1121
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:07,000
do.
I've got a lot of catching up to

1122
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:12,700
do but did Joseph Smith and
Brigham well Joseph Smith, did

1123
01:10:12,700 --> 01:10:16,300
he not build chapels because
there was so much persecution

1124
01:10:16,300 --> 01:10:19,600
going on or did he just not do
it because he didn't want to,

1125
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:21,400
would he have done it in Salt
Lake?

1126
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,600
I've got to have a place to
worship Beach Sunday.

1127
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:30,500
She also Joseph preached
preached under trees, he

1128
01:10:30,500 --> 01:10:36,900
preached in homes.
I think Joseph Vision was way

1129
01:10:36,900 --> 01:10:42,900
bigger than a church, right?
Joseph didn't Joseph understood

1130
01:10:42,900 --> 01:10:45,500
and you can really get a sense
of this.

1131
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:50,100
In the old writings of the early
Brethren that there was a

1132
01:10:50,100 --> 01:10:51,900
difference between the kingdom
of God.

1133
01:10:52,100 --> 01:10:59,100
And the church.
And Joseph was way he understood

1134
01:10:59,100 --> 01:11:03,400
that the church was kind of the
gate by which you entered the

1135
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:05,100
kingdom.
Uh-huh.

1136
01:11:05,500 --> 01:11:08,300
Right.
And so I don't think Joseph was

1137
01:11:08,300 --> 01:11:11,000
terribly concerned with building
chapels.

1138
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:16,300
I think he was in the mindset of
we need Community.

1139
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:19,500
What about Brigham Young was he
concerned about building

1140
01:11:19,500 --> 01:11:22,700
chapels.
He was, he was hit but that

1141
01:11:22,700 --> 01:11:25,500
wasn't till later in his life.
If and I think a lot of things

1142
01:11:25,500 --> 01:11:29,200
transpired that cause Brigham to
go that direction.

1143
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,500
But also, you have to remember
too, is that for the first time

1144
01:11:33,500 --> 01:11:38,900
when Brigham and the Saints set
up, shop in Utah, there outside

1145
01:11:38,900 --> 01:11:42,000
the United States.
And for the first time, I think

1146
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:47,100
they feel very secure right now,
I do think Joseph had every

1147
01:11:47,100 --> 01:11:52,400
intention of having a temple in
Kirtland.

1148
01:11:52,700 --> 01:11:59,800
Having a temple in Nauvoo Having
a temple in, in, in Missouri.

1149
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:04,200
So, I think that Joseph was very
cognizant of that, but I also

1150
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:07,100
think that he understood that
those were communities, first,

1151
01:12:07,100 --> 01:12:10,100
and foremost, right.
He's not worried about building

1152
01:12:10,100 --> 01:12:16,200
chapels because he wants to
establish a Zion like Enoch at.

1153
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:24,200
And so, his, his vision was was
well above where I think most.

1154
01:12:24,300 --> 01:12:29,300
bowls were well, maybe so Joseph
Smith does come across to me as

1155
01:12:29,300 --> 01:12:31,400
someone that was very
idealistic.

1156
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:38,700
Let me ask you this though.
If we don't have chapels, how

1157
01:12:38,700 --> 01:12:43,100
would we as members get to know
each other because especially in

1158
01:12:43,100 --> 01:12:46,200
places, like Buffalo New York,
where there's not many of us

1159
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:50,100
around?
Well, I can, I can I can speak

1160
01:12:50,100 --> 01:12:52,500
from a very fundamentalist
standpoint here.

1161
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:57,400
How come and that is, is that
you would, you would essentially

1162
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:00,600
meet in other people's homes and
that's where Fellowship would

1163
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:03,800
happen, right?
Like the, the church I attend,

1164
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:10,500
There is a chapel and a temple
in Nevada, but for everybody who

1165
01:13:10,500 --> 01:13:13,900
lives like in Northern Utah, we
meet in people's homes.

1166
01:13:15,100 --> 01:13:18,400
Okay, and there is there's a
different Spirit.

1167
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:21,400
When you meet in somebody's
home, right there, you're

1168
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:23,800
typically tends to be much more
relaxed.

1169
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:28,900
You tend to be able, you tend to
have the ability to ask deeper

1170
01:13:28,900 --> 01:13:34,200
questions.
And the other thing is that

1171
01:13:34,900 --> 01:13:39,300
something happens when you
invite a person or people in

1172
01:13:39,300 --> 01:13:42,800
your home, there's a different
Bond that's connected.

1173
01:13:44,100 --> 01:13:47,500
And so, I can only answer this
as a fundamentalist, but I think

1174
01:13:47,500 --> 01:13:51,800
it's a valid argument because we
know Joseph did it this way?

1175
01:13:52,300 --> 01:13:56,300
Is that, that preaching, and
that teaching takes on a much

1176
01:13:56,300 --> 01:14:00,200
more personal, feel in that kind
of environment.

1177
01:14:00,700 --> 01:14:06,000
Well, let me ask you this. and I
think this is a good discussion,

1178
01:14:06,100 --> 01:14:10,600
this is just me thinking What
about?

1179
01:14:10,700 --> 01:14:13,900
Okay?
In today's, what about the

1180
01:14:13,900 --> 01:14:16,100
youth?
What about youth activities?

1181
01:14:16,100 --> 01:14:18,600
What about where?
You get the young men's

1182
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,400
together, have an activity.
How would you do things like

1183
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:23,300
that?
If we just met each in each

1184
01:14:23,300 --> 01:14:26,800
other's homes and we had no
chapels, no Wards, or whatever.

1185
01:14:28,300 --> 01:14:31,000
You've got to keep these
activities going or you're going

1186
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:34,300
to lose membership dramatically.
I'm not saying having outlandish

1187
01:14:34,300 --> 01:14:38,900
activities is the best idea, but
you know, how I went oh, when I

1188
01:14:38,907 --> 01:14:41,200
was I was a teenager I went to
church.

1189
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:43,600
Well I started having a change
of heart.

1190
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:45,600
When I was a senior in high
school, I went to church because

1191
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:49,900
I wanted to learn the lessons
but before that I just cared

1192
01:14:49,900 --> 01:14:53,300
about cute girls and hanging out
with people my age.

1193
01:14:53,300 --> 01:14:55,700
Although I didn't have a lot of
friends in church at that point

1194
01:14:55,700 --> 01:14:58,700
but that's another story.
But how do you keep things like

1195
01:14:58,700 --> 01:15:02,600
that going?
Well I think It ultimately has

1196
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:06,700
to start at home, right?
And if there's one thing I'm

1197
01:15:06,700 --> 01:15:11,200
willing to to get behind LDS
church on it said, I think it

1198
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:14,400
was probably a good idea to have
more home time, unless Church

1199
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:19,400
time because it helped lying on
the church to keep your kid

1200
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:22,500
active.
Good Luck, Good Luck because if

1201
01:15:22,500 --> 01:15:25,900
they're not seeing it at home,
does not matter, it does not

1202
01:15:25,900 --> 01:15:27,100
matter.
One bit.

1203
01:15:27,300 --> 01:15:33,100
Now, having said that, I can
tell you that my wife has been

1204
01:15:33,100 --> 01:15:36,500
called to a position to help the
young women out up here in Utah

1205
01:15:36,500 --> 01:15:43,000
for for our, our church.
Oh, and again, we don't have, we

1206
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:48,000
don't have a tremendous amount
of Youth, but she still has that

1207
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:52,000
responsibility.
And so it's just a matter of,

1208
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:53,300
you know.
Okay.

1209
01:15:53,300 --> 01:15:56,000
Maybe you go over someone's
house and you learn some life

1210
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:57,500
skills.
You know, whether that's

1211
01:15:57,500 --> 01:16:00,300
balancing your checkbook or
whether that's learning how to

1212
01:16:00,300 --> 01:16:03,200
cook or first aid or any of
those other things, right?

1213
01:16:03,700 --> 01:16:08,700
Yeah, I think I think we maybe
put too much emphasis on the

1214
01:16:08,700 --> 01:16:12,300
bill Adding right, and not
enough emphasis on what's

1215
01:16:12,300 --> 01:16:18,400
Happening inside the building.
Yeah, I guess I just can't get

1216
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:23,300
over the logistical the
logistical purposes.

1217
01:16:23,300 --> 01:16:27,400
Maybe maybe there's a bit of a
bigger vision.

1218
01:16:29,100 --> 01:16:32,400
I've got to be honest, if I had
I do miss the three-hour block

1219
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,900
and I'm one of the few people
that does why.

1220
01:16:35,900 --> 01:16:38,800
Because I felt like we could get
into deeper conversations in a

1221
01:16:38,808 --> 01:16:43,500
three-hour block.
My my I love my brother but he's

1222
01:16:43,500 --> 01:16:47,100
not a deep thinker like you and
I we just don't get into deep

1223
01:16:47,100 --> 01:16:51,100
conversations.
I feel like we got a lot done in

1224
01:16:51,100 --> 01:16:56,100
three hours but I guess I'm just
trying to think.

1225
01:16:56,100 --> 01:17:00,700
What would we Do with Ward
dinner State conference and all

1226
01:17:00,700 --> 01:17:03,300
that, you know?
There's a reason why they

1227
01:17:03,300 --> 01:17:06,300
structured at the way they did.
What, how would you handle all

1228
01:17:06,300 --> 01:17:09,800
that, that General Conference
every six months?

1229
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:12,300
Yeah, we still have that in the
church.

1230
01:17:12,300 --> 01:17:15,200
I attend.
We meet every 6 months everybody

1231
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:19,800
drives down to where the church
is centered at Nevada and we

1232
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:25,000
have a general conference, we
call it solemn assembly.

1233
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:28,900
So that's what's referred to in
the In the scriptures in the

1234
01:17:28,900 --> 01:17:31,500
Doctrine and Covenants.
But it's also a principal.

1235
01:17:31,900 --> 01:17:34,800
It's a, it's a general
conference type of thing.

1236
01:17:35,500 --> 01:17:40,200
And so we all get to, you know,
everybody comes from all over to

1237
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:43,200
attend those.
Oh wow.

1238
01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:45,600
So ya know.
There's there's there's

1239
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:48,800
definitely some.
Now let me ask you this, what do

1240
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:51,700
they broadcast it over the
Internet for those that can't

1241
01:17:51,700 --> 01:17:54,900
make it down there?
You know, I don't know if they

1242
01:17:54,900 --> 01:17:59,700
do or not, I know.
I know that in our normal Church

1243
01:17:59,700 --> 01:18:08,400
meetings, we broadcast those oh,
Okay we broadcast those.

1244
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:12,900
Yeah we we typically start
church around 1 p.m. and that's

1245
01:18:12,900 --> 01:18:15,600
because we have a lot of
investigators from the LDS

1246
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:19,600
church that come over.
Oh yeah we have found that our

1247
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:24,200
best time to do it is after most
Wards have had their, their

1248
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:27,200
Sacrament meetings and that sort
of stuff in the LDS church and

1249
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:30,600
then we go ahead and have our
meeting and but yeah, we know we

1250
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:35,800
broadcast those and we got folks
that are even overseas that Oh

1251
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:37,900
my gosh.
Tun tun into those.

1252
01:18:37,900 --> 01:18:41,500
So we're very liberal about
handing out that link.

1253
01:18:41,900 --> 01:18:45,500
So yeah, so yeah if you want I
can give it to you as well.

1254
01:18:45,500 --> 01:18:49,500
I would be interested.
So how do you have three our

1255
01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:51,300
churches?
How long is?

1256
01:18:51,700 --> 01:18:55,000
Because I assumed after
Sacrament, you break off and go

1257
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:58,500
to Sunday school or whatever.
Not necessarily depends on how

1258
01:18:58,500 --> 01:19:00,700
many people are there.
Okay.

1259
01:19:00,900 --> 01:19:07,600
Typically what we do in again,
it does resemble What?

1260
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:12,100
The church look like in the
Doctrine and Covenants early on,

1261
01:19:12,100 --> 01:19:15,600
right?
So, the folks down in Nevada,

1262
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:20,200
they have a building a chapel,
right that they do use.

1263
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:22,500
Uh-huh.
And so, they'll break off for

1264
01:19:22,500 --> 01:19:27,300
like youth Sunday school then,
but for us what we tip, there's

1265
01:19:27,300 --> 01:19:34,000
there's no time limit or time
requirements on our meetings.

1266
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:39,600
We go Rusev Lie by the spirit
and also, you know, I guess

1267
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:44,400
another interesting tidbit is
that they kind of do what they

1268
01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:45,900
used to do in the old days,
right?

1269
01:19:45,900 --> 01:19:51,000
Where where the leadership
that's there is inspired to call

1270
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:54,800
people to come expound on
Doctrine, right?

1271
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:59,000
At a moment's notice.
So it does, it does get you in

1272
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:01,900
the mindset of, I better.
I better be living close to the

1273
01:20:01,900 --> 01:20:05,200
spirit because we don't know
when when will be called on.

1274
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:07,000
On to talk.
Yeah.

1275
01:20:07,500 --> 01:20:10,700
Oh yeah.
So yeah, it's so there's no time

1276
01:20:10,700 --> 01:20:14,500
limits, right?
It's not nearly as structured as

1277
01:20:14,500 --> 01:20:17,900
what the LDS church is, just
because we tend to go by by the

1278
01:20:17,900 --> 01:20:19,800
spirit a lot on those things,
right.

1279
01:20:20,100 --> 01:20:23,200
And we feel like if someone's
really feeling the spirit and is

1280
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:26,400
expounding Doctrine is probably
a good thing to hear him out.

1281
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:30,700
Interesting.
Okay, the back.

1282
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:38,400
Yeah, I'm just thinking of, you
know, if we didn't have I'm

1283
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:41,800
imagining.
If the president Nelson came out

1284
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:46,100
in the next general conference
and said We're going to do away

1285
01:20:46,100 --> 01:20:47,900
with chapels.
I'm thinking.

1286
01:20:48,500 --> 01:20:52,600
Wow, I know this will not
happen, but I could see

1287
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,600
something like that.
May be happening in phases as

1288
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:57,400
things.
Get worse in the world.

1289
01:20:57,800 --> 01:21:01,000
I could see President Nelson or
whoever saying, okay, we're

1290
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:04,300
going to do things a little bit
differently in this area or

1291
01:21:04,300 --> 01:21:07,200
whatever just because things
might get so bad.

1292
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:12,200
But I just, I can't comprehend.
It just seems like to me,

1293
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:16,100
there's a reason why chapels
were built and all the wards

1294
01:21:16,100 --> 01:21:18,900
meet together and those type of
things.

1295
01:21:18,900 --> 01:21:24,400
It certainly has given us.
A definite social aspect.

1296
01:21:24,400 --> 01:21:27,000
We meet people that we
ordinarily, would meet because

1297
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:30,900
of the chapel, I don't know.
It's an interesting concept, but

1298
01:21:30,900 --> 01:21:37,100
don't you think that that social
aspect may have become too much

1299
01:21:37,100 --> 01:21:39,500
of a factor and and low?
Absolutely.

1300
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:42,200
But let me let me back that up
with this, okay?

1301
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:46,400
I was still in the LDS church
and in leadership in the LDS

1302
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:49,200
church when the first days of
covid in the first days of

1303
01:21:49,200 --> 01:21:51,100
lockdown happened.
Yeah.

1304
01:21:51,100 --> 01:21:56,100
And so, what I noticed
immediately Kevin was that you

1305
01:21:56,100 --> 01:21:59,700
know the LDS church lost some
folks, right?

1306
01:21:59,700 --> 01:22:03,700
You all of a sudden I found out
you know how many people it was

1307
01:22:03,700 --> 01:22:07,700
important to based off of a
social aspect and how many

1308
01:22:07,700 --> 01:22:11,500
people it was important to them
based off of a doctrinal aspect

1309
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:14,800
and and the church definitely
lost some membership during

1310
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:20,400
during the lockdowns.
Because all of a sudden if it

1311
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:25,200
wasn't there and the social part
was your main driver.

1312
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:30,100
Well you know that then it's
going to fall by the wayside.

1313
01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:34,000
So I do think that there is the
argument would be okay.

1314
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:35,500
We're separating the wheat from
the tares.

1315
01:22:35,500 --> 01:22:42,200
Your point is well valid though.
So yeah, I mean when and that's

1316
01:22:42,200 --> 01:22:45,000
one of the fascinating things
about Mormonism right is because

1317
01:22:45,700 --> 01:22:51,100
it is a society unto itself to a
large degree and it is a culture

1318
01:22:51,100 --> 01:22:57,400
unto itself.
But if the social aspect take

1319
01:22:57,400 --> 01:23:00,300
precedent over the doctrine,
there's there's some problems to

1320
01:23:00,300 --> 01:23:02,700
be had.
There you have a point, your

1321
01:23:02,700 --> 01:23:06,700
point is well, you have a point
and maybe that's part of why

1322
01:23:07,100 --> 01:23:08,700
president Nelson said we're
doing home.

1323
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:11,000
Study.
You have a point.

1324
01:23:11,700 --> 01:23:18,700
Well yeah, I guess I guess the
other thing is too is that I

1325
01:23:18,700 --> 01:23:22,600
think at some level you have to
either be prepared to do that or

1326
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:26,000
have someone who's willing to
show you how to do that.

1327
01:23:26,700 --> 01:23:31,700
Yes.
And yeah, I think that that when

1328
01:23:31,700 --> 01:23:35,700
covid came around, nobody
understood fully how to do it

1329
01:23:35,700 --> 01:23:40,700
right.
Another, I've often, I've often

1330
01:23:40,700 --> 01:23:43,900
thought, if those times ever
came for the LDS church, I sure

1331
01:23:43,900 --> 01:23:47,800
hope that they go to their
fundamentalist Brethren to say,

1332
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:49,300
okay, how you guys been doing
this.

1333
01:23:49,300 --> 01:23:56,100
You have point because the vast
majority of fundamentalists tend

1334
01:23:56,100 --> 01:24:00,300
not to meet in groups, right?
They tend to be families and

1335
01:24:00,500 --> 01:24:05,600
some Close Associates.
So there they really are very

1336
01:24:05,600 --> 01:24:10,100
well positioned to be able to
carry the work forward with

1337
01:24:10,100 --> 01:24:13,000
diminished physical resources
available.

1338
01:24:15,300 --> 01:24:19,500
Yeah, I don't know you you're
making me think here but that's

1339
01:24:19,500 --> 01:24:22,900
a good thing.
You have a very valid point, you

1340
01:24:22,900 --> 01:24:26,100
know, there's a lot of people
that go to church especially I

1341
01:24:26,100 --> 01:24:29,300
notice Youth and Young adults
that just go for the social

1342
01:24:29,300 --> 01:24:32,500
aspect.
Yeah, yeah.

1343
01:24:32,500 --> 01:24:36,000
And and that's now that can be
very bad sometimes too.

1344
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:39,500
If that's all you're basing your
testimony on and to be fair

1345
01:24:39,500 --> 01:24:42,500
though it's also good, right?
There is something to be said

1346
01:24:42,500 --> 01:24:47,300
for you know learning by osmosis
right, just being there, right?

1347
01:24:47,300 --> 01:24:51,400
I think it was young Lombardi
who said, you know, 90% of

1348
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:55,200
success is just showing up.
So the yeah, we all go through,

1349
01:24:55,300 --> 01:24:58,200
we all have to do that, fake it
till we make it kind of thing.

1350
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:01,300
But at some point you need your
own Light, you can't borrow

1351
01:25:01,300 --> 01:25:05,200
somebody else's.
Yeah, that's absolutely true.

1352
01:25:06,400 --> 01:25:09,300
And you know, maybe that's
another reason why the church

1353
01:25:09,300 --> 01:25:13,400
shut down during covid as maybe
they wanted to weed out or God

1354
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:15,700
wanted to weed out the wheat and
the Terrors and just a thought.

1355
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:22,700
Maybe, maybe, I guess I would
have been part of that and

1356
01:25:22,700 --> 01:25:25,900
because I went off and joined
the fundamentalist sect.

1357
01:25:25,900 --> 01:25:29,600
So yeah, but you're still a
defender of the restoration of

1358
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:31,700
Book of Mormon.
There's a there's a difference

1359
01:25:31,700 --> 01:25:33,200
but I know what you mean.
Right?

1360
01:25:33,200 --> 01:25:34,900
Yeah.
So I don't know.

1361
01:25:34,900 --> 01:25:39,700
It's all interesting things like
I yeah I yeah I'm not trying to

1362
01:25:39,700 --> 01:25:41,600
beat up the LDS church I'm
really not.

1363
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:45,700
I do I get up or I enjoyed my
time there and I feel like it

1364
01:25:45,700 --> 01:25:51,700
prepared me for what I'm doing.
Now in some ways but I think I

1365
01:25:51,700 --> 01:25:55,700
think at some point so someone's
going to look back on

1366
01:25:55,700 --> 01:25:58,400
fundamentalists and go.
Maybe they got some points.

1367
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:00,500
Maybe we should go look at them
a little bit.

1368
01:26:01,200 --> 01:26:04,500
Yeah, if we could just get
people over the fact that not

1369
01:26:04,500 --> 01:26:07,300
every fundamentalist is like
Warren Jeffs.

1370
01:26:07,300 --> 01:26:09,200
That's the problem.
The media is given

1371
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:11,700
fundamentalist Mormons.
A bad rap.

1372
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,700
Yeah.
Yeah, they have, I mean, that's

1373
01:26:14,700 --> 01:26:16,900
one of those things I think will
continue to struggle.

1374
01:26:17,100 --> 01:26:20,600
Against for a while.
Ya know it's unfortunate.

1375
01:26:20,700 --> 01:26:25,300
One of my hopes in doing this
podcast was that it would

1376
01:26:25,300 --> 01:26:29,100
inspire you know more people to
kind of come out of the shadows

1377
01:26:29,100 --> 01:26:31,500
and say, yeah, you know we've
been living this way for a long

1378
01:26:31,500 --> 01:26:36,300
time and and and that sort of
thing and gosh, like like I

1379
01:26:36,308 --> 01:26:43,600
said, on your podcast, Kevin, I
I haven't met personally a

1380
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:47,000
fundamentalist yet, who was like
I'm totally for underage.

1381
01:26:47,200 --> 01:26:49,400
Right?
You just don't really see it.

1382
01:26:49,700 --> 01:26:54,100
It's reserved.
It seems to be for the tyrants

1383
01:26:54,700 --> 01:26:57,900
and for the false priests who
oppressed.

1384
01:26:57,900 --> 01:27:03,600
I don't know how else to say it.
So yeah, the Warren Jeffs the

1385
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:07,500
the Kingston's I think you you
can see some definite issues

1386
01:27:07,500 --> 01:27:13,900
there but the the vast vast vast
majority of fundamentalist you

1387
01:27:13,900 --> 01:27:16,800
never know him.
You probably that's the problem

1388
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:21,000
is Is yep and no offense to you
but I think people like you need

1389
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:23,800
to start speaking out more not
just on your podcast.

1390
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:26,300
Maybe you can go to the media.
I don't know how you're going to

1391
01:27:26,300 --> 01:27:28,400
do it.
Your podcast is awesome.

1392
01:27:28,900 --> 01:27:31,100
Well I appreciate that.
I'm a clown.

1393
01:27:31,100 --> 01:27:33,700
The microphone.
Oh, maybe not you as a person

1394
01:27:33,700 --> 01:27:36,000
but your group has to do more.
I don't know.

1395
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:38,200
They can get in front of the
media or what?

1396
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:44,800
You know fundamentalists are
especially right now in kind of

1397
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:49,500
a Weird transitionary, period,
right.

1398
01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:55,500
Because you have you have this
Old Guard who have some very

1399
01:27:55,500 --> 01:27:58,200
valid concerns, right?
These were people who had their

1400
01:27:58,200 --> 01:28:03,900
kids taken away for selling
living living the gospel to the

1401
01:28:03,900 --> 01:28:05,300
dead.
Are you talking about the Warren

1402
01:28:05,300 --> 01:28:08,000
Jeffs crab specifically or
everybody?

1403
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:11,800
Well, yeah, I mean, do you know
the history of how the Jeff's

1404
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:13,900
came into power down there in
short Creek?

1405
01:28:14,700 --> 01:28:19,900
Well, I think so, I don't know,
I heard a podcast.

1406
01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:23,900
I'm not going to mention his
name but I heard a podcast with

1407
01:28:23,900 --> 01:28:27,600
someone who grew up in that and
my understanding is Warren Jeffs

1408
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:31,300
came into Power because his
father was in the power, he

1409
01:28:31,300 --> 01:28:33,600
died.
And so he took over because it

1410
01:28:33,608 --> 01:28:37,700
was the line of authority thing.
And well that's that's not

1411
01:28:37,700 --> 01:28:41,600
necessarily true, not
necessarily the whole truth.

1412
01:28:41,900 --> 01:28:47,500
So you have to go back to The
latter days of World War Two.

1413
01:28:47,500 --> 01:28:53,100
Actually, so the in, and again,
I'm not throwing stones here,

1414
01:28:53,100 --> 01:28:57,100
I'm just, I'm just telling you
what I've read and also what

1415
01:28:57,100 --> 01:29:00,400
I've had really good historians
on this podcast.

1416
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:06,500
Tell me, okay, the LDS church
during the 40s was was really

1417
01:29:06,500 --> 01:29:14,100
trying to Kind of get rid of
that fundamentalist and of the

1418
01:29:14,100 --> 01:29:17,500
Mormon religion, right?
They wanted to be done with it.

1419
01:29:18,300 --> 01:29:22,700
So they actually had some
sympathetic members who were

1420
01:29:22,700 --> 01:29:30,900
part of the Arizona, Highway
Patrol and that and so they

1421
01:29:30,900 --> 01:29:33,900
decided, okay, we're going to
do, we're going to go raid that

1422
01:29:33,900 --> 01:29:39,000
compound.
Down in Arizona, Shrek in the

1423
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:40,300
40s.
Yep.

1424
01:29:40,300 --> 01:29:44,400
Back in the forties and we're
going to go ahead and we're just

1425
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:46,500
going to put an end to this.
We're going to put the men in

1426
01:29:46,500 --> 01:29:49,200
jail.
We're going to separate the

1427
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:51,700
families.
Doesn't this sound an awful lot

1428
01:29:51,700 --> 01:29:54,300
like the Edmonds Tucker's act
from the 1830s.

1429
01:29:55,000 --> 01:30:01,700
Yeah, I mean 1850s anyway.
So they go in there and they

1430
01:30:01,700 --> 01:30:06,100
arrest these men, they take the
children into protective custody

1431
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:11,300
and what's fascinating is Kevin
is that it's the rest of the

1432
01:30:11,300 --> 01:30:13,500
nation that comes to their
defense.

1433
01:30:14,300 --> 01:30:18,000
Actually, I can't remember what
magazine it was, but the

1434
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:21,900
magazine that featured the story
about what had happened started

1435
01:30:21,900 --> 01:30:27,900
to receive hundreds and hundreds
of e of pieces of mail from even

1436
01:30:27,900 --> 01:30:30,900
soldiers overseas.
See saying we're here fighting

1437
01:30:30,900 --> 01:30:34,400
for people's freedoms.
And these people just got their

1438
01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:39,700
their kids taken away for living
their religion and the first

1439
01:30:39,700 --> 01:30:41,700
during World War Two.
It was.

1440
01:30:41,700 --> 01:30:43,300
Yeah, it was.
Okay.

1441
01:30:43,500 --> 01:30:47,800
And so, and there were several
more raids before it was over.

1442
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:51,500
But finally, they returned the
children, but the damage had

1443
01:30:51,500 --> 01:30:55,400
been done.
So when laroy Butler, who was

1444
01:30:55,400 --> 01:30:59,500
the original leader down there
in short Creek, when he dies

1445
01:31:00,200 --> 01:31:06,100
Jeff's, dad is able to establish
power and he does it by saying,

1446
01:31:06,100 --> 01:31:10,300
look the world hates you.
And the proof is they came to

1447
01:31:10,300 --> 01:31:14,400
take your kids and the only way
for you to remain safe is to

1448
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:19,000
listen to me.
Now, that's bad enough but then

1449
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:24,600
you get Warren Jeffs that comes
behind him and as we know, he is

1450
01:31:24,700 --> 01:31:30,300
absolutely a tyrant and a
monster and somebody who was

1451
01:31:30,300 --> 01:31:32,900
just brutal and everything he
did.

1452
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:39,100
But yeah when you when you have
a people that not only have our

1453
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:43,200
that you've convinced but you
can point back to and say look

1454
01:31:43,300 --> 01:31:46,000
they did come for your kids so
you have to listen to me so I

1455
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:47,900
can keep you.
Safe, right?

1456
01:31:47,900 --> 01:31:50,100
And and if you have a problem,
you come to me.

1457
01:31:50,100 --> 01:31:52,700
You don't go to the outside
world because they're there to

1458
01:31:52,700 --> 01:31:55,500
take away your kids.
Well what does that do to a

1459
01:31:55,500 --> 01:31:57,400
people?
It forces them into the darkness

1460
01:31:57,400 --> 01:31:59,900
right, forces them into the
corners of society.

1461
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:06,300
So all of that was able to be
done because we had forced an

1462
01:32:06,300 --> 01:32:10,900
entire people into the Shadows.
Now, back to your original

1463
01:32:10,900 --> 01:32:14,400
question, is we still have a lot
of people.

1464
01:32:15,500 --> 01:32:18,800
I go to church with a All of
them who either remember those

1465
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:21,900
days or we're actually part of
those days, right?

1466
01:32:21,900 --> 01:32:23,800
Where kids were taken from their
families.

1467
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:27,300
And so we're in an interesting
period where we still have some

1468
01:32:27,300 --> 01:32:30,600
of that Old Guard who I just
love dearly because they

1469
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:35,500
sacrificed so much to keep the
religion going, but they're

1470
01:32:35,500 --> 01:32:37,000
like, you, you can't go out
there.

1471
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:40,100
You can't be public because
you're risking the children and

1472
01:32:40,100 --> 01:32:42,600
everything else.
And I get a sense that there's a

1473
01:32:42,608 --> 01:32:45,900
newer generation, who's more
willing to talk about it.

1474
01:32:45,900 --> 01:32:50,200
So I think At least for a while
we're going to be in this in

1475
01:32:50,200 --> 01:32:53,400
this phase of kind of trying to
strike a good balance.

1476
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:55,200
Does that make sense?
And I think that's why, you

1477
01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:59,900
know, you haven't seen more
people step out and be public

1478
01:32:59,900 --> 01:33:02,900
but it that tide is turning,
right?

1479
01:33:03,900 --> 01:33:06,200
It's beginning to go the other
direction.

1480
01:33:06,200 --> 01:33:09,000
So I I have Great Hopes And it's
going to happen.

1481
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:13,700
I might be a bit early and
starting my podcast, but I think

1482
01:33:13,700 --> 01:33:17,600
that there's more to come and I
have been pleasantly surprised

1483
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:22,100
that as I have talked with other
fundamentalist on the podcast,

1484
01:33:22,100 --> 01:33:26,000
they've always been While
they've been apprehensive, about

1485
01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:29,300
why I don't think I'm your guy,
or I don't think I have much to

1486
01:33:29,300 --> 01:33:33,400
say by and large.
They're, they're really excited

1487
01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:36,900
to do it because I think I think
they can recognize that for

1488
01:33:36,900 --> 01:33:39,500
perhaps for the first time they
get to tell their own story.

1489
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:43,300
And I think that's just kind of
where we're at now.

1490
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:45,900
I have great hopes for the
future.

1491
01:33:45,900 --> 01:33:49,000
I think, I think we're only
going to continue to be more

1492
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:52,800
visible and I've said this for a
lot of years here in Utah, is

1493
01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:57,100
that For folks living in Utah.
You probably work with a

1494
01:33:57,108 --> 01:33:59,300
fundamentalist and you don't
even know it.

1495
01:34:00,500 --> 01:34:03,300
Oh, I probably meant to
fundamentalist in Cedar City.

1496
01:34:03,300 --> 01:34:05,100
Didn't know it in the grocery
store.

1497
01:34:05,100 --> 01:34:06,600
Whatever.
Right.

1498
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:07,400
Right.
Yeah.

1499
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:12,000
So I have Great Hopes but but
they're there is a large segment

1500
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:16,600
of fundamentalist that still
bear those societal scars from

1501
01:34:17,100 --> 01:34:18,800
from having their families
taken.

1502
01:34:19,300 --> 01:34:21,300
Yeah.
And understandably.

1503
01:34:21,300 --> 01:34:23,600
So right.
Right.

1504
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:26,500
I The same way if I had to
endure something like that, I'd

1505
01:34:26,500 --> 01:34:31,100
be the exact same way.
I think, you know, come hell or

1506
01:34:31,100 --> 01:34:32,900
high water.
I'm going to protect my family

1507
01:34:32,900 --> 01:34:36,300
at all costs so I can definitely
understand that that line of

1508
01:34:36,300 --> 01:34:39,300
thinking.
But I also look at the times we

1509
01:34:39,300 --> 01:34:42,100
live in now and I see an
increasing Darkness coming

1510
01:34:42,100 --> 01:34:43,900
about, right.
And I'm just going to call us.

1511
01:34:43,900 --> 01:34:50,300
Oh yeah, here I see the rise of
the lgbtq movement and certainly

1512
01:34:50,300 --> 01:34:53,400
I wouldn't deny them their
rights to live how they see fit.

1513
01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:59,200
But if they can be out in the
open, why can't we exactly why

1514
01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:02,200
can't we, why can't we say?
Yeah, you know what, I do, have

1515
01:35:02,200 --> 01:35:03,900
more than one spouse or, you
know what?

1516
01:35:03,900 --> 01:35:07,500
Yeah, I do believe the atom God,
Doctrine, or any number of

1517
01:35:07,500 --> 01:35:11,300
things, and then have an
intelligent respectful dialogue

1518
01:35:11,300 --> 01:35:13,000
about it.
Yeah.

1519
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:15,600
Like what we were doing here?
Exactly.

1520
01:35:15,700 --> 01:35:20,600
Exactly.
And, and I think, if I think if

1521
01:35:20,600 --> 01:35:26,300
the powers that be In the LDS
church and maybe some

1522
01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:32,000
fundamentalist sex were to be
able to get past their own

1523
01:35:32,400 --> 01:35:36,100
animosity, towards each other.
I think there's so much we could

1524
01:35:36,100 --> 01:35:40,700
learn from each other.
Oh yeah and I don't see why we

1525
01:35:40,700 --> 01:35:44,900
have to hate each other.
I mean maybe we don't hug it out

1526
01:35:44,900 --> 01:35:48,200
on Sundays but there's no reason
we can't stand together on some

1527
01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:52,300
very important issues.
I've said for a while and you're

1528
01:35:52,300 --> 01:35:56,300
not the first LDS guy of On this
podcast, I've had on Ken

1529
01:35:56,300 --> 01:36:03,400
Peterson and I've had on Hannah,
Stoddard, and and and Kimberly

1530
01:36:03,400 --> 01:36:05,700
Watson Smith and they'll both be
on again.

1531
01:36:07,100 --> 01:36:12,000
But my point has been is that
look, the other side is coming

1532
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:15,600
for every one of our kids.
They're not just going after the

1533
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:18,700
LDS kids, they're not just going
after the fundamentalist kids.

1534
01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:22,900
The the lies in the false
narratives around our history.

1535
01:36:24,100 --> 01:36:27,600
Are geared towards us all, if we
believe that Joseph Smith was

1536
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:29,700
the prophet of the restoration
and that Brigham.

1537
01:36:29,700 --> 01:36:33,600
Young was his successor.
We all have a dog in this fight,

1538
01:36:33,600 --> 01:36:36,800
and we can have our own
theological differences later,

1539
01:36:36,900 --> 01:36:39,600
but right now, it really should
be all hands on deck.

1540
01:36:39,900 --> 01:36:43,300
Oh absolutely.
That's in this town reason not,

1541
01:36:43,300 --> 01:36:44,800
the only reason that's one
reason.

1542
01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:49,800
I have no problems being friends
with you is because of what you

1543
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:51,700
just said.
Now, there's other reasons why

1544
01:36:51,700 --> 01:36:53,500
we're good friends but that is
one of them.

1545
01:36:53,500 --> 01:36:54,200
Yes.
Yes.

1546
01:36:55,600 --> 01:36:59,500
So yeah, no.
I just find that the difference

1547
01:36:59,500 --> 01:37:02,900
is that separate us shouldn't
separate us as much as they are.

1548
01:37:02,900 --> 01:37:06,300
Like I said, we got be able to
hug it out on Sundays but

1549
01:37:06,300 --> 01:37:10,800
there's no reason we can't do a
work project or a service

1550
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:14,800
project together on a Saturday.
No, there's no reason why I

1551
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:18,800
can't have dinner with you or
whatever in your house on a

1552
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:21,900
Saturday night or something like
that, right?

1553
01:37:22,300 --> 01:37:26,300
Have likewise there's no Reason
why you can't have dinner at my

1554
01:37:26,300 --> 01:37:28,600
house on a Saturday night or
whenever?

1555
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:30,700
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

1556
01:37:30,700 --> 01:37:34,900
I think, I think there's plenty
of room with in Mormonism for

1557
01:37:34,900 --> 01:37:42,200
all of us.
Yeah, and I, you know, it'll be

1558
01:37:42,200 --> 01:37:44,200
interesting to see where things
go.

1559
01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:48,000
My fear is how far can we go
down?

1560
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:54,400
This road as LDS people
supporting, These causes LGBT

1561
01:37:54,600 --> 01:37:58,400
causes nothing hits the LGBT
community.

1562
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:01,300
I know wonderful people that are
gay or whatever.

1563
01:38:02,200 --> 01:38:04,700
But how long can we support
these causes where they're

1564
01:38:04,700 --> 01:38:08,200
trying to push it into our
schools and confuse the masses

1565
01:38:09,100 --> 01:38:13,600
before the church.
Just I just hope the church does

1566
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:19,600
not go off the deep end.
I don't think it will, but I, I

1567
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:22,700
hope to high heaven, we can get
Cells back on track with that

1568
01:38:22,700 --> 01:38:25,000
particular issue and may be
other issues.

1569
01:38:25,900 --> 01:38:31,900
You know, I think this is my
perspective looking in on it and

1570
01:38:31,900 --> 01:38:37,400
I could be wrong.
But I think the lgbtq agenda and

1571
01:38:37,400 --> 01:38:41,600
I'm not saying everybody who's
gay or lesbian or whatever,

1572
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:43,900
feels this way.
I would dare to say the vast

1573
01:38:43,900 --> 01:38:48,600
majority don't, but I think the
powers that are the most vocal

1574
01:38:48,600 --> 01:38:52,700
within that movement are Playing
a different game than the

1575
01:38:52,700 --> 01:38:55,700
leadership of the LDS church,
right?

1576
01:38:55,700 --> 01:38:59,800
I think the LDS yeah thinking
still okay they just want

1577
01:38:59,900 --> 01:39:04,200
acceptance or tolerance or
whatever but I think the other

1578
01:39:04,200 --> 01:39:07,800
side is playing a different game
in which not only are you going

1579
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:11,900
to tolerate it?
But we're going to win at all

1580
01:39:11,900 --> 01:39:15,400
costs.
At some point you will Seal two

1581
01:39:15,400 --> 01:39:18,700
men together or two women
together, well, that goes back

1582
01:39:18,700 --> 01:39:22,700
to a talk apparently and I tried
to find this, I couldn't find it

1583
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:26,600
maybe, you know, apparently Neal
a Maxwell gave a talk in a

1584
01:39:26,608 --> 01:39:30,100
general conference.
That said of Something to the

1585
01:39:30,100 --> 01:39:35,500
effect that you might be working
with people that tolerate you

1586
01:39:36,400 --> 01:39:40,100
and heat, it wasn't specific.
But I think we can guess who he

1587
01:39:40,100 --> 01:39:44,100
was talking about, maybe not
certain groups specifically, but

1588
01:39:44,100 --> 01:39:48,300
just certain groups.
But he apparently said, there

1589
01:39:48,300 --> 01:39:50,500
will be a time where they hate
you.

1590
01:39:50,500 --> 01:39:52,900
They tolerated you but now they
hate you.

1591
01:39:53,400 --> 01:39:55,900
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, I think, right

1592
01:39:55,900 --> 01:40:03,600
now as it stands is that At that
side, the lgbtq agenda, not not

1593
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:07,800
individual people, but, but the
agenda and the people that are

1594
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:12,500
driving, the agenda are playing
a game in which they fully

1595
01:40:12,500 --> 01:40:18,100
intend to win.
They will not rest until there

1596
01:40:18,100 --> 01:40:21,800
are.
I don't know how to say it in

1597
01:40:21,800 --> 01:40:23,500
this.
I don't mean, this is an attack.

1598
01:40:23,500 --> 01:40:28,900
I'm just saying what I see until
the church will see.

1599
01:40:29,100 --> 01:40:34,900
Two men together in.
No in matrimony I think the LDS

1600
01:40:34,900 --> 01:40:37,700
church leadership is playing a
game of.

1601
01:40:37,900 --> 01:40:41,000
Well if we Just Surrender a
little bit more maybe that will

1602
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:44,500
appeasement appease them, what
kind of comes back you give us

1603
01:40:44,500 --> 01:40:48,500
an edge will give you you you
take an inch will get a mile out

1604
01:40:48,500 --> 01:40:50,800
of right?
And and so I think it's very

1605
01:40:50,800 --> 01:40:53,200
much.
I think the church is very much

1606
01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:56,900
in a Neville, Chamberlain kind
of mentality right now.

1607
01:40:56,900 --> 01:40:58,800
Right.
We'll have peace in our time.

1608
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:03,900
While the other side has no
intent on peace, unless it's

1609
01:41:03,900 --> 01:41:08,100
through total Victory.
So I think I think for the LDS

1610
01:41:08,100 --> 01:41:11,300
church and this is just again
from what I hear from the

1611
01:41:11,300 --> 01:41:12,900
inside.
Yeah.

1612
01:41:13,200 --> 01:41:17,900
And from, from what I see is
that I don't think that they

1613
01:41:17,900 --> 01:41:21,500
realize they're in the kind of
scrap that they're in.

1614
01:41:23,900 --> 01:41:27,900
Yeah, yeah, I wondered that too.
I think you're right.

1615
01:41:29,400 --> 01:41:33,000
And the other problem is, we
have more liberal people in the

1616
01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:35,500
Quorum of The Twelve.
I know Elder uchtdorf is more

1617
01:41:35,500 --> 01:41:37,300
liberal.
Yes.

1618
01:41:37,300 --> 01:41:40,600
Supposed to Delanie chokes.
I don't know about Tom, Todd

1619
01:41:40,600 --> 01:41:45,500
christofferson or any of those
but that's a problem to we have

1620
01:41:45,500 --> 01:41:49,800
these people that are okay, they
might be getting Revelation from

1621
01:41:49,800 --> 01:41:52,400
God but they're human and
they're going to have their

1622
01:41:52,400 --> 01:41:55,100
politics or whatever, Call It
Whatever.

1623
01:41:55,800 --> 01:42:00,400
And that's that's a problem too.
I think this is where we have to

1624
01:42:00,400 --> 01:42:03,000
be so grounded.
Yeah.

1625
01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:08,000
And not just history.
But in truth and in principle

1626
01:42:08,400 --> 01:42:16,300
that we let maybe some of those
feelings about politics, be

1627
01:42:16,300 --> 01:42:28,000
driven by our our Doctrine right
certainly Certainly we there

1628
01:42:28,000 --> 01:42:31,000
should always be a separation
between church and state.

1629
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:36,200
I think everybody's just a favor
that in favor of that but ah but

1630
01:42:36,500 --> 01:42:43,500
this idea then skewed, right?
This idea that that That

1631
01:42:43,500 --> 01:42:45,800
politics and religion will never
mingle.

1632
01:42:46,300 --> 01:42:52,000
That's not true either right now
because religion is the vehicle

1633
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:58,100
by which morality can be
delivered and taught and really,

1634
01:42:58,100 --> 01:43:02,700
the government is established to
protect people's rights.

1635
01:43:03,100 --> 01:43:08,800
So at some point you will have
intersections between morality

1636
01:43:08,800 --> 01:43:12,000
and religion and politics and
government.

1637
01:43:12,100 --> 01:43:14,400
Right.
I think, I think abortion is a

1638
01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:19,200
prime example of that, right,
where morality religion politics

1639
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:24,300
and government intersect and you
have to figure out which one's

1640
01:43:24,300 --> 01:43:29,400
more important.
Yeah, and it's, it does bother

1641
01:43:29,400 --> 01:43:31,400
me.
That the church does not work

1642
01:43:31,400 --> 01:43:34,400
with some of these anti-abortion
groups, even though it's

1643
01:43:34,400 --> 01:43:38,700
worldwide, I think I would love
to have a bishop, my Bishop, get

1644
01:43:38,700 --> 01:43:41,200
up there, and give a whole
sermon on Roe v--, Wade, in the

1645
01:43:41,200 --> 01:43:46,100
politics and the overturning,
and how we have to stay in this

1646
01:43:46,100 --> 01:43:47,600
fight.
I'd love to hear a powerful

1647
01:43:47,600 --> 01:43:51,200
sermon like that for my Bishop.
Right?

1648
01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:53,900
I think the church is in a
position now where they have to,

1649
01:43:54,300 --> 01:43:55,900
they have to be a little
careful, right?

1650
01:43:55,900 --> 01:44:00,700
Because such a large portion of
their membership is pretty far

1651
01:44:00,700 --> 01:44:05,300
left these days.
Yes, unfortunately.

1652
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:10,300
So I think it's just kind of the
the waters that they're forced

1653
01:44:10,300 --> 01:44:13,500
to navigate at the moment.
Yeah.

1654
01:44:14,300 --> 01:44:18,500
But anyway, you were pretty.
You were pretty fired up.

1655
01:44:18,500 --> 01:44:22,600
I listened to your episode when
when the church came out and

1656
01:44:22,600 --> 01:44:25,600
supported the Defense of
Marriage Act or oh yeah.

1657
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:30,100
Well, I don't like the fact that
the BYU professors are teaching

1658
01:44:30,100 --> 01:44:33,700
this BS of.
Oh, we gotta, you know, the

1659
01:44:33,700 --> 01:44:35,800
gender.
There's more than one gender.

1660
01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:39,200
This is BYU For Heaven's Sake
sake, right?

1661
01:44:39,200 --> 01:44:45,100
And I'm curious as to Why?
We're not hearing more of

1662
01:44:45,100 --> 01:44:49,400
Jeffrey are Holland talks about
what the, you know, he gave a

1663
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:53,400
Pretty powerful talk.
I don't know if I want to use

1664
01:44:53,400 --> 01:44:57,300
condemned but almost condemning
some of the BYU professors and

1665
01:44:57,300 --> 01:45:00,700
once the LGBT and the
dissonances and the church, the

1666
01:45:00,700 --> 01:45:04,900
Patrick Mason's got a hold of
that you didn't hear a word.

1667
01:45:04,900 --> 01:45:07,800
Did they have something to do
with the brother?

1668
01:45:07,800 --> 01:45:10,000
And not talking about it again,
or what?

1669
01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:15,000
I think we need to know.
I'm with you, I'm with you.

1670
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:19,600
I think we need to know one of
the things I've wondered about.

1671
01:45:19,600 --> 01:45:21,500
I'm not saying This is what it
is.

1672
01:45:21,500 --> 01:45:26,100
But one thing that's crossed my
mind is, is, is the LDS church

1673
01:45:26,100 --> 01:45:30,000
just waiting for the Old Guard
to die off, and then they'll

1674
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:31,800
make.
Yeah, I have to watch you

1675
01:45:31,800 --> 01:45:35,900
appropriate.
Yeah, I don't know.

1676
01:45:35,900 --> 01:45:39,800
I think it's a fair question.
I hope not, but it's a, it's a

1677
01:45:39,808 --> 01:45:42,400
real possibility.
Yeah.

1678
01:45:42,600 --> 01:45:46,200
Yeah.
You know, I tore my knee up a

1679
01:45:46,200 --> 01:45:51,500
few years back I tore my ACL and
stuff and so I had like a ton of

1680
01:45:51,500 --> 01:45:57,600
time on my hands and as I
rehabbed and got got it back

1681
01:45:57,600 --> 01:46:00,500
working.
So in that process I'm like I am

1682
01:46:00,500 --> 01:46:03,900
completely bored.
There was only so much Madden

1683
01:46:03,900 --> 01:46:04,500
football.
Ball.

1684
01:46:04,500 --> 01:46:07,600
I could play on the Xbox before
I just went stir crazy.

1685
01:46:09,400 --> 01:46:11,800
So I read a bunch, I play a lot
of video games.

1686
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:13,500
And finally, I'm like, you know
what?

1687
01:46:13,800 --> 01:46:16,800
I'm gonna go take some classes
because we lived really close to

1688
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:19,000
UVU Utah.
Valley University.

1689
01:46:19,100 --> 01:46:21,400
Oh yeah.
And so, I would just go over

1690
01:46:21,400 --> 01:46:23,800
there and I would just pay for
classes, right?

1691
01:46:23,800 --> 01:46:26,000
I wasn't looking for a major
anything else.

1692
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:30,300
So I took, I took courses in
anthropology, I took a lot on

1693
01:46:30,300 --> 01:46:34,500
political science.
And as I would get teamed up

1694
01:46:34,500 --> 01:46:38,000
with some of these, these kind
of hate homeless, but kids,

1695
01:46:38,000 --> 01:46:41,500
write these these young adults?
Well, you can call them kids,

1696
01:46:41,500 --> 01:46:45,200
you know what I've what I
noticed was that they don't have

1697
01:46:45,200 --> 01:46:47,200
the same thoughts like guys,
like you.

1698
01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:49,900
And I do right where we tend to
say, okay?

1699
01:46:49,900 --> 01:46:53,200
We got to keep marriage between
men and women.

1700
01:46:53,700 --> 01:46:55,900
They say well why can't two men
get married?

1701
01:46:55,900 --> 01:46:57,500
I don't get it.
I don't see what the big deal

1702
01:46:57,500 --> 01:46:59,100
is.
I don't see why the church is so

1703
01:46:59,100 --> 01:47:04,200
hard on it and so I'm a A little
nervous for the for the upcoming

1704
01:47:04,200 --> 01:47:07,100
generation.
Oh, I am too.

1705
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:12,200
You know we gotta tell people
God created Adam and Eve not

1706
01:47:12,200 --> 01:47:15,800
Adam and Steve, right, right.
But then they're going to come

1707
01:47:15,800 --> 01:47:18,600
back and say, oh well, science
says this and science says, that

1708
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:21,700
people are born homosexuality.
I actually happen to believe

1709
01:47:21,700 --> 01:47:25,000
that there are people that are
born that way, but for whatever

1710
01:47:25,000 --> 01:47:28,800
reason, you know, well, I think
we know God wants us to Pro

1711
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:32,700
Creed.
Have sex and, you know,

1712
01:47:32,700 --> 01:47:38,700
procreate the right way and
being homosexual violates that

1713
01:47:38,700 --> 01:47:40,800
law.
Now that's I don't want, I can't

1714
01:47:40,800 --> 01:47:44,000
judge a homosexual salvation,
that's between them and the

1715
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:49,200
Lord, but we know from the
Bible, it says, especially in

1716
01:47:49,200 --> 01:47:53,800
the Old Testament very much
preaches against homosexuality.

1717
01:47:54,300 --> 01:47:59,100
Yeah, so, I feel bad for those
that and I do believe there are

1718
01:47:59,100 --> 01:48:02,800
people that legitimately
struggle with same-sex

1719
01:48:02,800 --> 01:48:05,000
attraction fact, I know somebody
who's son.

1720
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:09,500
Does I feel bad for him because
he's a member of the church and

1721
01:48:09,500 --> 01:48:12,800
he has every reason to hate the
church but he is willing to

1722
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:16,500
defend it to the day he dies.
And I have to admire somebody

1723
01:48:16,500 --> 01:48:18,700
like that, ya know, I'm there
with you.

1724
01:48:18,700 --> 01:48:23,100
You know, if if there's someone
that struggling with that, I'll

1725
01:48:23,100 --> 01:48:25,300
stand with them.
I'll help them right?

1726
01:48:25,300 --> 01:48:29,300
Yeah.
But at the same time, you know,

1727
01:48:29,300 --> 01:48:32,900
if they go out and become, you
know, practicing homosexuals,

1728
01:48:32,900 --> 01:48:35,200
there's not much I can do there,
right?

1729
01:48:35,200 --> 01:48:39,100
Where again, we can be cordial.
I will stand by for your right

1730
01:48:39,100 --> 01:48:43,600
to live your life like you want.
I will make sure you don't get

1731
01:48:43,600 --> 01:48:49,100
tossed off the building, right?
But I don't think we get the say

1732
01:48:49,100 --> 01:48:51,900
I don't think that's
reciprocated to our side.

1733
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:57,500
Right?
No, and I've been reading a book

1734
01:48:57,500 --> 01:49:00,500
by Julie Bellum, our billing.
I don't know if you've heard of

1735
01:49:00,500 --> 01:49:02,200
her, you gotta have it on the
podcast.

1736
01:49:02,900 --> 01:49:05,300
I've been reading her book and I
know you have.

1737
01:49:05,700 --> 01:49:09,100
I haven't heard of her, okay,
very fascinating book.

1738
01:49:09,100 --> 01:49:12,800
I'm reading her book, be nice,
sheep's clothing and she talks

1739
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:17,500
about, you know, she makes it
very clear if you're an LGBT

1740
01:49:17,500 --> 01:49:21,100
person, I feel bad for you if
you've been persecuted.

1741
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:26,800
I feel bad if you know, if
you've been alienated by

1742
01:49:26,800 --> 01:49:29,900
religion and let's face it,
there are people that have been

1743
01:49:29,900 --> 01:49:35,000
at our very hurt by religion and
even the LDS religion and I feel

1744
01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:38,500
bad.
But she goes on to say we cannot

1745
01:49:38,500 --> 01:49:43,900
reach this in our schools two
young kids like it's one extreme

1746
01:49:43,900 --> 01:49:47,500
and Confused.
The kids about gender.

1747
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:50,600
You know she said we need to
talk about things like this in

1748
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:55,600
an Priya tej.
And I like the way she wanted

1749
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:56,800
it.
She wanted it much better than

1750
01:49:56,800 --> 01:49:58,600
me.
Right?

1751
01:49:58,900 --> 01:50:01,100
Right, absolutely.
Yeah.

1752
01:50:01,300 --> 01:50:04,400
What was her name again?
Julie Bella gotta have her on

1753
01:50:04,400 --> 01:50:07,000
the podcast.
I can give you her contact info.

1754
01:50:07,200 --> 01:50:08,300
Yeah.
That'd be great.

1755
01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:10,400
Okay.
Um yeah.

1756
01:50:10,400 --> 01:50:13,800
No, I think you're right.
I think you're 100% correct.

1757
01:50:13,800 --> 01:50:16,900
And I think the church is now at
a crossroads, right?

1758
01:50:17,200 --> 01:50:19,000
Yeah.
Um, because I do think that

1759
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:23,300
there is a large chunk of the
upcoming generation that Today

1760
01:50:23,300 --> 01:50:27,100
will be leaders in the LDS
church and I'm not sure.

1761
01:50:27,100 --> 01:50:31,900
They have the same grounding
that you and I do when it comes

1762
01:50:31,900 --> 01:50:36,600
to marital relationships, right?
You have a whole segment of this

1763
01:50:36,600 --> 01:50:38,600
younger generation has come
along that.

1764
01:50:38,900 --> 01:50:44,800
Doesn't look at the proclamation
to the family, as, as divinely

1765
01:50:44,800 --> 01:50:47,000
inspired.
Yeah.

1766
01:50:48,100 --> 01:50:51,500
And I've often wondered why the
church hasn't just canonized

1767
01:50:51,500 --> 01:50:54,800
that because that would put that
all the bed real quickly.

1768
01:50:57,400 --> 01:50:59,300
Well, I think I know what they
say.

1769
01:50:59,300 --> 01:51:01,200
They say, well, we got to be
christ-like.

1770
01:51:01,200 --> 01:51:04,000
We got except everybody.
We got to be kind to everybody.

1771
01:51:04,900 --> 01:51:10,700
Yeah, to a point but when it
starts affecting Doctrine and

1772
01:51:10,700 --> 01:51:15,500
when they start shoving it down
us like that Baker and Colorado,

1773
01:51:15,500 --> 01:51:19,400
who I understand this, the
Circuit Court of Appeals or the

1774
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:24,600
state court wouldn't take his
case again, we got to take

1775
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:26,800
action.
Yes, I definitely believe in

1776
01:51:26,808 --> 01:51:29,100
being in Christ.
Like yes, I believe in being

1777
01:51:29,100 --> 01:51:32,200
kind to, my LGBT brothers and
sisters.

1778
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:33,800
That's what the gospel is all
about.

1779
01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:35,800
But there's a point where you
have to step your foot down and

1780
01:51:35,800 --> 01:51:39,700
say, no.
Because of they've been teaching

1781
01:51:39,700 --> 01:51:41,900
the non.
I know there's more than one

1782
01:51:41,900 --> 01:51:45,400
gender and things like that
right.

1783
01:51:45,900 --> 01:51:47,300
Yeah.
Right here.

1784
01:51:47,300 --> 01:51:51,000
Adam Jesus Christ was firm.
He knocked over the I was in the

1785
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:52,900
temple.
That's exactly where I was

1786
01:51:52,900 --> 01:51:56,300
going.
Even the Savior knocked over a

1787
01:51:56,300 --> 01:51:59,900
few tables.
Yeah exactly.

1788
01:52:00,700 --> 01:52:02,500
Yep.
And who's to say he didn't yell

1789
01:52:02,500 --> 01:52:05,500
at the other federal government
authorities out there?

1790
01:52:05,500 --> 01:52:07,900
We don't know.
Right?

1791
01:52:08,700 --> 01:52:11,800
Right.
Well I think Christ gets painted

1792
01:52:11,800 --> 01:52:16,600
in pastel colors a lot, but I
think if you if you really get

1793
01:52:16,600 --> 01:52:20,700
some background in in Hebrew
culture of that time period,

1794
01:52:20,700 --> 01:52:24,600
what you'll find is that the
Savior, the savior's message was

1795
01:52:24,600 --> 01:52:27,300
pretty radical right there.
Weren't a lot of y'all.

1796
01:52:27,900 --> 01:52:30,500
There weren't a lot of
organizations that really liked

1797
01:52:30,500 --> 01:52:36,000
him right now.
They, you know, you had the

1798
01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:38,800
Romans, it didn't like him.
You have the religious

1799
01:52:38,800 --> 01:52:41,800
establishment of the day that
didn't like him and to, a

1800
01:52:41,800 --> 01:52:43,700
certain degree.
I think we'd all better.

1801
01:52:43,700 --> 01:52:47,100
Get really comfortable with this
idea of not being liked by the

1802
01:52:47,100 --> 01:52:51,100
world.
Yeah, absolutely.

1803
01:52:51,100 --> 01:52:56,500
And it's interesting, my brother
is so worried about social norms

1804
01:52:56,500 --> 01:52:59,500
and I'm thinking Okay, it's okay
to be different.

1805
01:52:59,500 --> 01:53:01,500
I'm not worried about it.
Like you are.

1806
01:53:02,200 --> 01:53:04,700
Well, not only not only, is it
okay to do?

1807
01:53:04,700 --> 01:53:08,200
So, I think the Lord had set up
his people to be different.

1808
01:53:08,200 --> 01:53:10,700
Right?
A peculiar people unto the Lord.

1809
01:53:11,400 --> 01:53:14,800
So in some ways, if we're
fitting too much into society, I

1810
01:53:14,800 --> 01:53:16,600
think that needs to be a red
flag.

1811
01:53:17,000 --> 01:53:20,100
Yeah.
I don't know.

1812
01:53:20,100 --> 01:53:22,800
I sometimes wonder if I fit too
much into society.

1813
01:53:22,800 --> 01:53:25,800
Who else?
I think you're just fine.

1814
01:53:25,800 --> 01:53:28,200
Kevin, I wouldn't sweat that too
much.

1815
01:53:30,000 --> 01:53:36,300
Okay, but but yeah, no you and I
we're pretty close together on

1816
01:53:36,300 --> 01:53:40,200
that and I can say, I don't fit
very well and I'm pretty sure

1817
01:53:40,200 --> 01:53:42,600
that it did anyone.
That heard your podcast,

1818
01:53:42,700 --> 01:53:44,300
probably feel the same way about
you.

1819
01:53:44,300 --> 01:53:52,600
So, but yeah, um, yeah, no, it's
all fascinating stuff but Well

1820
01:53:52,600 --> 01:53:54,600
dude, we're pushing 2 hours
here.

1821
01:53:55,800 --> 01:53:58,600
Yeah, great conversation.
I've got a met.

1822
01:53:58,600 --> 01:54:01,200
You made me think about some
things but that's good though.

1823
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:03,900
Well, ya know, and likewise to,
absolutely.

1824
01:54:04,400 --> 01:54:08,200
So absolutely, we will need to
do this again sooner than later.

1825
01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:10,100
Kevin.
Yeah, I do want to talk to you

1826
01:54:10,100 --> 01:54:12,900
off the podcast if I can.
I don't know what your schedule.

1827
01:54:12,900 --> 01:54:14,300
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.

1828
01:54:14,300 --> 01:54:15,100
Yep.
We'll do that.

1829
01:54:15,100 --> 01:54:18,400
So, dude, thanks for coming on.
What's the name of your podcast?

1830
01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:21,000
Again?
LDS Life podcast and

1831
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:23,500
unfortunately, I don't have an
email address.

1832
01:54:23,500 --> 01:54:25,400
Maybe I should get one set up
this.

1833
01:54:27,100 --> 01:54:29,800
But set it up this week Kevin
and I'll throw it in the the

1834
01:54:29,800 --> 01:54:31,400
page notes.
Yeah.

1835
01:54:31,500 --> 01:54:32,400
Yeah.
I'll do that.

1836
01:54:32,700 --> 01:54:35,400
In the meantime though.
You can go to Apple podcast or

1837
01:54:35,400 --> 01:54:39,300
Spotify, I know.
I'm on Apple and Spotify.

1838
01:54:39,300 --> 01:54:41,200
Probably other places and get up
there.

1839
01:54:41,500 --> 01:54:43,000
All right, perfect.
Yes.

1840
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:46,900
Server is Anchor dot f m.
For those of you that wonder

1841
01:54:46,900 --> 01:54:49,500
where a hose my podcast
provider.

1842
01:54:50,000 --> 01:54:52,000
Absolutely.
All right, good deal.

1843
01:54:52,200 --> 01:54:55,400
Go check that out, everybody.
All right, thanks for having me.

1844
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:57,100
All David.
Yep, you bet man.

1845
01:54:57,300 --> 01:55:13,500
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

1846
01:55:13,500 --> 01:55:15,200
Renegade podcast.