Episode #28: Part 2 Of The Jewish Calendar Series: Yom Kippur W/Joshua Erickson

0:05 On this episode of the podcast, I continue my conversation with Josh show, Erickson for our series, on the feast and holy days of the Jewish calendar as Mormons. One of our Central tenets of faith. Is this idea of restoration? Now, we know that the feast and holy days were instituted by God, ancient Lee and were observed by the Savior himself. This leads to the question that should we as Mormons give greater attention to the Jewish calendar and can we glean something special from an understanding and even participation in these holidays. Now I strongly encourage Those who haven't listened to episode number 15 and number 27 to stop here and listen to those first episode 15 sets the table for the series. And episode number 27 is on Rosh Hashanah today, me and Joshua was conversation. Turns to the next major event on the Jewish calendar, which is Yom Kippur or the day of atonement. We talk about Yom Kippur and what it is, what it points to and its significance.

0:57 How it was observed ancient lie and finally how it can be observed in our day and age as Mormons. And that's next on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast. So, I just want to take a moment to thank you. The Listener, when I started this podcast I wasn't sure if anyone would really listen. Now to my surprise, this thing has taken on a life of its own and that's all due to you the listener, spending your time here with me, and it means a great deal to me now, as a husband and father, I'm keenly aware of how important time is. It feels like there's just never enough of it. So when you are spending your time here, listening to this podcast, I feel a responsibility to never waste your time in that Spirit as this podcast has grown. I feel like I need to do you the listener. Justice, I want to continue to produce good content and upgrade the audio quality that takes better equipment and better software and that all takes money. Now, I've tried to advertise, but you'd be surprised. There's not a lot of people want to advertise on a Mormon fundamentalist podcast.

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3:38 You can also get a hold of me on Instagram and Twitter and getter under the handle. Mormon Renegade. Also we have a website up and that's Mormon Renegade.com. So go check that out. Well Joshua, how's it going? It's great. Glad to be back back again. I'm not going to tell the listeners what happened but it was it was spiritual. But this is the second take for the Yom Kippur episode. We're doing here. So dude, I'm glad that you agreed to come back. I apologize. We got to do this again but it's always good to talk to you. Yeah, glad to be here. Take 2 will be better than take one home. Absolutely, absolutely. So real quick, we talked about Russia Shawano last time and I love that idea.

4:26 Idea of that 10 day Span in between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur where where you're just basically kind of recalibrating right? You're putting yourself back into a place to where you're in alignment with God. Yeah, I think so often we have this idea of God being on our side and I don't think it works like that. I think we have to be on his side and that 10 day period is going to put it that 10-day period. I think is one of those times where we can kind of realign our will and our Ring and get back with God. So you talked about just doing good works, doing that sort of thing. What else do you do in that 10 day period? Yeah it is it is just this exactly what you said. It's a time of introspection and repentance and just taking stock of your life and turning back to God. And you know, last time I think I talked about the parable about the king is in the field, right?

5:26 And now according to tradition on when the trumpet blows on Rosh Hashanah then, Of the, then that means like court is in session. The king is in his court, right? And there's ten days they're called the ten days of all. And this is kind of the last, your last time to make yourself, right with God, I like what you said being on getting yourself on his side, that's where to be. It reminds me of the verse in Isaiah 55 that the Lord says seek me, while I am near, right? So this is, this is The time when the Lord is near and nearer than he's ever been. Sometimes people people get caught up in, in the symbolism of the feasts and their, these fall feasts are directly connected to the second coming and all the events surrounding that.

6:22 And so people ask me sometimes when I think that's going to happen. And you know, my answer is, I don't know, but we're closer than we've ever been. I'm sure about that. So yeah, I think so. And what's interesting is I think that Everybody can kind of feel it, right? I think that unlike other times there's almost a general undercurrent of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Yeah. And, and I think more so than ever before, we can feel it. And and so I like what we're doing here because sometimes you got to look back in order to know where we're heading. Yeah. And and I feel like these feasts and you put it this way and in the one we did about Russia Shawna where Where it's an appointment, right?

7:08 Let's keep these appointments. Let's, let's however you want to do it but keep those in mind, right? And I tend to believe that that our predecessors in Israel knew what they were doing and the way that they celebrated, those absolutely agree. So real quick explain to us exactly what Yom Kippur is. Okay. It's Yom Kippur the is Hebrew. The English is day of atonement. Soyou Ms. De Kapoor is atonement which you is also translated sometimes as a covering. So we're talking about it is the day when the sins and the uncleanliness of the entire nation are taken care of by the high priest.

7:55 And so it's a it's incredibly important. You know, last time I talked about the maybe it, maybe I did, maybe I didn't I'll talk about it now. Talk about sake, The idea of Sacred Space and about making the Earth and our habitations suitable for his presence to be among us. And that's really kind of the point of a lot of these levitical laws I'll say is to make place where God can dwell Among Us and also to clean ourselves up so that we can endure his presence on the Earth. Okay.

8:36 Now there's it's kind of an interesting thing. The instructions for Yom Kippur are found in Leviticus Leviticus chapter 16 and we're going to go there in a minute, but first I want to like on either on either side of Leviticus, we have this really interesting story, it's the story is not told directly but if you read the books together then there's this extra little story in there and so it goes like this in towards the backside of Exodus, there's a lot of instructions for how to build the Tabernacle and there's all the detailed things about the curtains, and the the furnishings and, and all that. There's a very beautiful and very expensive building and also portable, right? Because they're in the wilderness, right? And they, at the end of Exodus they finish it. This is Exodus chapter 40.

9:26 And it says, and then in, and it worked, right? Verse 34 says, then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory. Of Jehovah filled the Tabernacle and Moses was not able to enter into the tent of congregation because the cloud Abode there on and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle. So it was so they had built this place for God and had dedicated it and then his presence came and dwelt. There and says, even Moses was not able to go in and then the book of Exodus like ends right there. It's, that's a problem. Yeah, that's a funny place to just Bright like and Moses couldn't enter and the end. Yeah the end and then we get Leviticus which is you know maybe the most for some people.

10:15 Anyway maybe the most boring and tedious book. Oh maybe next two numbers, I don't know. But then we get Leviticus with all the all the instructions about how to make sure that this place stays holy for God's presence to be there and also how to make sure that the people stay holy and clean so that they an be able to enter his presence and then we get to the Book of Numbers. And and the very first verse in numbers says, and Jehovah spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai in the Tabernacle of the congregation on the first day of the second month in the second year, it goes on. So anyway, so Moses is able right after all, these extra instructions are given.

11:02 Moses able to go in the tabernacle into God's presence and that's what Yom Kippur is all about. Is about making sure that both the the place and the people are clean so that they can enjoy one another's company so to speak. That's awesome. You know, the symbolism is so rich in there. and it's a shame that more people, don't dive into those first five books of Moses because What I discovered is that not only is their instruction for Israel. You know, the the nation of Israel.

11:42 Those instructions are very personal, right? It's like, all of you have to do this in order to get these blessings. All of you individually have to do your part. So that the entire nation is blessed and I think that as fundamentalist and Mormons in general, we all strive for Zion Right? And we forget that it's not like Zion is just going to pop up. And then we're just going to all the sudden, be ready to inhabit Zion. Right? We have to build it. And and the first thing we got to do is build ourselves and our families. And I think the, the symbolism is so rich there.

12:23 I just got done going through the Old Testament again. And one of the things that, that I noticed, especially about, you know, Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy. That's almost got a Doctrine and Covenants, feel to it in a lot of ways because you're getting this feeling that just like the Doctrine and Covenants, almost entirely were responses responses. Yeah, to to Joseph's questions about how do I do this? How do I, how do we govern ourselves, how do I administrate in these offices? I think in a very real way, Leviticus and numbers and Deuteronomy, Doing the exact same thing, right?

13:05 Moses like how do I govern this people? What do we need to do? And so I think that that within these books, you get this idea of history repeating itself again. Yeah, I think that's a beautiful way to put it. There's definitely a connection there. I like what you said about like the there's in these books we definitely get a sense of the connection to the nation that every individual has like yes, these things. Things are about the entire nation of Israel, but, if everyone's not on board, then did then God, can't bless God. Can't be in like, no unclean thing. Can be in his presence.

13:46 We say that, right? Right. I mean, you know, that, of course, has we can talk a lot about that but you know, but one person or one group of people not United disqualifies the whole group. And, you know, I'm a big fan of Jordan Pederson. I know we've talked right but he has A lot to say about that, you he quotes old units and stuff, Gulag archipelago talking about like the sins of individual people, the sins and the laziness of individual people led to cause this National catastrophe, right? Regular people aren't doing what they're supposed to and suddenly the world whole world falls apart into tyranny and awful things you and so just like Jordan, Peters is famous for saying, clean up your room, right? Right.

14:32 Care of Self and and you don't, you don't realize the effect that you have on the larger society just by getting yourself in order and your own home in order. Sometimes, I think we focus a lot on this on the fact and I think it's good that we are important to God. But with that importance, there's responsibility, right? We have an influence that like a stone thrown into a pond. Those ripples go out and and we're all those stones and that pain. Is society whatever Society were in and we're seeking it has a ripple effect and we have a certain responsibility to make sure that whatever we're sending out is is on par with what God desires for his people.

15:20 Yeah yeah. And there's like you said, also the other side of it is God list out his expectations for Israel and says you do this, and you're going to be blessed, right? Prosper in the And if not the land will become defiled like it was before and I will speak the land clean. I'll sweep you out and start over with someone else. Yeah. And I think we miss the fact that that we are still under that National Covenant, right? Absolutely. As a country. And as a people is a Book of Mormons full of that to absolutely, because this land will be inhabited by says a band of Christians, right here, right worship the god of the land.

16:03 Just Jehovah and if and if not, then it will be swept clean. Yep. And and people history is so important because again, it gives it gives the backstory, it gives the direction, right? And people often glossed over that the First Act Washington does after the Constitutional Convention, he marches everybody down to, I want to believe it st. Marks in New York and he puts Eddie they're under Covenant and it's the only time outside of Israel. Proper that a nation had made a covenant with the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and interesting. And I've not heard that story.

16:47 Yeah. No, he puts everybody under Covenant that basically it we will be your people if you will be our God and we will keep your statutes and and he's very deliberate in that. And in that moment Washington is acting somewhat like a high priest. Oh yeah and what's interesting is that is darn close to ground zero and God always comes back to the place of Covenant. There's lots of always and there's a lot of interesting parallels and so it used to bug me and I don't know if this is correct. So, take this for what it is. It's from the book of Dave, but hopeful what's that, which isn't one of the apocryphal books. One of the apocryphal ones, I'm sure it's in there, just to keep Um, but one thing that always used to bug me was how is America not mentioned in the Old Testament, it plays such an important role or the New Testament. It plays such an important pivotal role in any time. There's a major civilization, God mentions it, whether it's in Prophecy, or whether it's in directly by name and it's really hard to find anything about America in there and it dawned on On me when I thought about that that by Washington making that Covenant with the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob again, the only other country in the world to ever do other than Israel.

18:15 We numbered ourselves amongst Israel. Hmm. We know there's a lot of blood of Ephraim here. We know that there is a lot of of the House of Israel within America so that that that's one of the ways I answered that again. That's just from the book of Dave page, 220. And yeah, no, I like that, but it's good. Anyway, so explain to us how Yom Kippur was was observed in ancient Israel. So significant about it. Yeah, is considered To be the holiest day of the year and it's wholly in many ways. There's its Holi in space for one, So the Earth is God's footstool, right?

18:59 The Earth as a whole is is has some Holiness to it, but among the Earth and all the nations that are dwelling there on, then, you know, there are promised lands that are have this higher Holiness and when we're talking about the promised land in the old world, then that's the nation of Israel. And in the nation of Israel, the holiest city is Jerusalem and in the holy city, Some, the holiest place is the Temple of the Tabernacle and in the temple, the holiest place is holy of holies. Z6 is even more layers than that in the temple, there's the holy place and then the ad outer court and the only place in the holy of holies.

19:44 So it's the holiest of the holiest of the holiest of the holiest, place. And and that is what happened. That is the place that is in the center of what happens on Yom Kippur. And then there's this sacredness in time too. Because again, it's the seventh month, which is this holy time right now, out of the year. And it's on the day of atonement, which is the holiest day of the, of the holiest month. And then we have the holiest, the holiest person to we have, yes, we Have All God's Children. But of the Nations and Israel was chosen and out of those then the the tribe of Levi was chosen and then out of those there was Aaron and his descendants were going to be the high priest and then we have the high priest himself and so again the holiest of the holiest of the Holy and then and then he goes into the holiest place at the holiest time and says the holiest things.

20:41 And so it's a very very reverent time and it's it's interesting. A lot of the other The other feast days of the lord. We talk about the feast days, and Leviticus 23. They're all laid out there and they are all feasts. They're all referred to as feast. And one point or not. I mean, generally the referred to as Feast except for Yom Kippur which is considered to be fast day. So it's actually a day to afflict yourselves says and to rest and I'll just I'll just read it. Here is in Leviticus 23, starting in verse 26. And the Lord spake unto Moses saying, also on the tenth day of this seventh month which is the day of Yom Kippur, there should be a day of atonement, it shall be an holy convocation unto you and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto Jehovah and you shall do no work in that same day or it is a day of atonement to make an atonement for you before. Jehovah, your God, for whatsoever, Soul it. Be that shall not be afflicted in the same day. You should be cut off from among his people and whatsoever, Soul. It be that do with any work in that. Same day, the same soul will.

22:00 I will I destroy from among his people. You shall do no manner of work. It shall be a statute forever throughout your Generations in all your dwellings. It shall be unto you. A Sabbath of rest and ye shall afflict your souls in the ninth, on the ninth day of the month at even from evening to evening, show you celebrate your Sabbath. So, I mean, Really the it's like repeated over and over don't do anything afflict your souls don't do everything. Don't do any work afflict your souls are basically it's this is this is the Sabbath of Sabbath's so it is a day to rest and reflect and to do nothing and then and it's interesting that a lot of the other. Yeah.

22:45 Like as I mentioned the other feast days there's a lot of participation from those who are celebrating it on. The day of atonement, it is all about the work of the high priest. He is, this is his day to shine, so, to speak, and to perform an atonement for Israel. And of course, it doesn't take much figuring out to realize that this is a very strong type and Shadow of the work that Jesus did write as the great high priest. So, I'm getting and correct me if I'm wrong here. I'm getting this idea. That, that may be the work that the high priest is doing isn't necessarily observed by most of the congregation of Israel. Correct.

23:35 That is correct. And actually, no one sees, no one actually directly sees what is done, and that's kind of one of the Beautiful Things, actually. One of the symbolic symbolic things, you know, the high priest and you can read about, you know, the guard that the high priest wears. Yes, and it's beautiful. It's, you know, made out of red, you'd threads that are dyed, red and blue and purple and also actual threads of gold like all woven together to make his robe and and part of his breastplate. And there's precious stones and they have you settings in gold and he's got a gold solid gold plate on his forehead.

24:22 Has the words inscribed Holiness to the Lord and and, and anyway, it's just it's like, extravagant, the beauty of the high priest. Garments are rise. And he wears the high priest wears those normally. But when the high priest does his work on the day of atonement, he actually sets all of that Glory aside and dresses himself up as regular priest, he's only wearing white linen, which is the standard Priestly attire for the levitical priests And and then he does his, does his work in the holy of holies.

25:06 Dressed like any other priests. If you can't tell by looking that, he is the high priest. And this is, this is a remarkable thing because, in course, is similar to what Jesus, right. Yeah. Jesus Bookworm talks about Jesus condescending, right? Setting aside the glory that he had come down to earth. And you Isaiah says engines, Isaiah 53 says that the Messiah will have no form or comeliness that we should do. He's not going to he's not going to be impressive looking. Right? And we won't know that. Yeah. Unless you're watching and waiting you won't know that it's that the Messiah is arrived because he's just going to be like any other man.

25:53 I mean this is a a common I think objection to Jesus in Jerusalem. They would say The leaders or the, you know, the people in Jerusalem and say like we have like we know this man, we know his family you know, his brothers and sisters here, like he's just he's From Galilee, he's just a normal guy and he so he's making these claims and we don't believe it because there's nothing special that we can see, ya know, there's a yeah, there's so many types and shadows there of the high priest, being a type and Shadow of Christ himself. Yeah. Doing that work. That because you think about it. I mean the only witnesses to the atonement are really especially the garden.

26:41 Portion are a few of his inner circle right through the Inner Circle and even they fall asleep, And so this idea that that the high priest is doing that work. Without anybody watching, right strikes, me as significant. There's there's a speaking of apocryphal books we mentioned earlier. There's one apocryphal book called the extension of Isaiah. And in it, Isaiah has this Vision where he's, there's this angel that takes him up through the various levels of heaven. And he goes At each level he sees the beings who are there and he sees how they're dressed and sees their glory and they're praising the Lord and so on, and the Angel takes him on this tour of heaven, and when he gets up every level, he goes up, gets its brighter, and more glorious and more beautiful and more awe-inspiring.

27:40 And he gets up to the sixth heaven. And he says, this is, the glory is so overwhelming. All the other levels of Even like I thought those were amazing but those are just dark in Congress and he finally gets up to the seventh heaven and he sees the son of man and and basically is handed off to the son of man and the son of man is going to take him back down through the levels, but when he does that and then he's going to come to Earth and and beat him sign. But he does that end as he's as he's going down. Of the son of man you know, which is premium. Jesus basically right disguises himself so that he looks like just the regular old Angels, right? You know, the beings that are at each level disguises himself and Isaiah's kind of Amazed at this, that no one in the levels of Heaven recognize, who he's with and he finally comes down to earth and it's just, you know, just man. So I want to go back to something real quick if you don't mind.

28:55 Yeah. In that was in the prescription of how the Yom Kippur was kept. What do you think it means? They're when it talks about. It's a time for rest and afflicting your soul. Yeah. What do you think? Talking about there, that's good. I do think that it is it is referring to fasting, okay? But you could certainly be fasting of All Sorts. I've never been to Israel, but I've heard that on Yom Kippur that it is. It is Deathly quiet. Like people don't even turn on their TVs radios or whatever. And there's you know they'll be children riding their bicycles on the freeway and stuff like that because there's no traffic, everything shuts down completely, and everyone's just kind of waiting in anticipation.

29:52 So, I mean, it is, it is the final day. This is, this is the other besides forgiveness One of the one of the things that Yom Kippur is also pointing towards is judgment, is the final judgment? And so this is the this is the last day. Symbolically speaking to get your to repent, right to get on the loop to become to get yourself on the Lord's Side as you've mentioned earlier. So yeah, so I think that could, that could that Affliction of your soul, could take a variety of forms, but we do want to be careful.

30:35 I think not to afflict our souls the way the Hypocrites, do like Jesus, right? They fast and they, you know, they moan and complain and, you know, put ashes on their face and those kind of things and tell everyone how hungry they are all the time. But you want to do, like what says, in Isaiah Chapter 58 which says, this is the fast that I have. Oh Dean, which is to meet the needs of your fellow people, right? To feed the hungry and visit the poor. All the things that says are you familiar with? Yeah, my rings are ringing Bells as if if you have. So that's the fast is to yes to make yourself uncomfortable and at the same time, Serve others without complaining about your own discomfort and just set yourself aside for a day and do something for other people. And, you know, in, in that way, we kind of, we do participate, we partake in some small sense in the work of Messiah, right? Poor him.

31:47 He poured himself out right for our behalf and, and laid his life down for his friends. He says greater love has no man that he lay down his life for his friends and so it's a day of service and to just yeah say yourself said you know it is as I was thinking about that. I think that it's probably and maybe correct me if I'm wrong in maybe a more. Holy expression than what we're used to doing every week as we partake of the sacrament. Maybe that's the time to focus on that broken heart and a contrite spirit as well.

32:29 Absolutely. Cuz I get this feeling that, you know, whether you're participating by being of service to another or whether you're a home, just contemplating the work that's done by the high priest. You also have to have this recognition of. I'm kind of the blame for this to, right? I mean, I've done these things in and look at what I've done. Is your sins and your carelessness right now, it's time to to have that taken care of, but with that, there's a almost a commission to do better from that point forward. Yeah, right. And and then a sense of gratitude that God's given you a way out.

33:13 That's Yeah. I like what you said about the The part that we have to play, we all some of those. Some of those drops of blood that Jesus Sweat, Right? In the Garden were for you and for me, yeah. And just knowing that is just knowing the Great Lengths that he would go to bring us back in provide a way for us to come back in is humbling. Yeah, and so Humility is I think super important that recognition.

33:54 In fact, I was going to talk about this a little bit later but now is probably a good time. If you go to Leviticus chapter 4, I'm going to read just going to quickly read a couple. Yeah, I think so Leviticus chapter 4 is all about what to do when people sin and in particular what to do when not in particular, I will say only what to do when people sin in ignorance. Okay, not knowing what they're doing. So little big this for two and we're not going to read all of it, but just say that's a speak of the children of Israel. If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of The Commandments of Jehovah, Concerning things which ought not to be done and she'll do against any of them. Then it says you know what the person's going to do in the priests is going to do and universe 13 and if the whole Congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, right if everyone forgets, which has happened in Israel's history before they forget, they're supposed to be keeping the Passover.

34:57 It just Sia has a big Reformation right now, this Okay, they sin through ignorance and the thing, be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of The Commandments of Jehovah and then goes on. And, you know, verse 22 says, when a ruler of the people, you know, the king or one of the elders are the judges or whatever. When a ruler has sinned and done somewhat through ignorance against any of The Commandments of Jehovah has God concerning things which should not be done and is guilty. And then it goes on with what should be done verse 27, if any of the Common People sin through ignorance, while he do it, Somewhat against any of The Commandments of the Lord, then it goes on and you go to numbers Numbers. Chapter 15 is another good chapter for this. And go there, numbers 15 verse 22. If you have erred and not observed, all these Commandments which the Lord has spoken to Moses, even all that, the Lord has commanded you by the hand of Moses. From the day that Lord commanded Moses and henceforward among your Generations, then it shall be if aught be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, then all the congregation do this and that and and verse 27 If any Soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a sheet. You're the first year since healthy goes on. So now the interesting thing about all of these references and there's others that we could list to is that every single thing that the law can take care

36:28 of every single thing that you can actually be forgiven them in, in the entire, in the entire Old Testament. And I would argue New Testament as well. I would argue that, this is still the case, is that you cannot be forgiven. Intentional sins. Now that's a pretty rough thing to say because who has not sinned intentionally or knowingly. Raise your hand, you know? Right? I have okay. So what what is the, what is the solution if you sin intentionally? Well, it says, in numbers 15 verse 30, But the soul that do with Aunt presumptuously, whether he be born in the land or a stranger, the same approach, if Jehovah, and that Soul shall be cut off, from among his people, because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken his Commandment.

37:23 That Soul shall utterly be cut off his iniquity, shall be upon him. And that's it. Like, the nigger nicotine is on you and you get cut off again, pushed out of the. We can't have you here among this. Holy people. So that's pretty rough. I think that that's that's the only solution. Now. You know, there is talk in the New Testament, you know, and in Mormon history about what constitutes an unpardonable sin, right? And there's, you know, there's kind of some various answers. You'll get there's some kind of General consensus. This is like some serious, things like murder or nine, the Holy Ghost right Joe Smith.

38:10 I don't have to quote in front of me but you'll probably recognize it said something about at least about the sons of Perdition that's like looking at the sun and saying that the sun doesn't exist or something like that, right? It's a defiant act and I think that really is at the, at the heart of Of what is unforgivable. Is that it? And there? And there is a difference, I will say to between deliberate and defiant, right? And as long as as long as there is Defiance in someone's heart, Then there's no there's no forgiveness there because forgiveness requires that.

38:54 Humility broken, heart contrite spirit. So so what's the solution to all of this? It is, it is humility. It is regret, it is it is. You realize the harm you've done, not only to the person but to yourself to the nation and to the Savior. And when there is this change of heart, And and there's this regret, then there's this magical thing that happens where the intentional sin becomes sin, committed in ignorance, right? Because and why, you know, why is that?

39:35 Because you can imagine You're speaking to God about this or something? Yeah, the Judgment bar. God says, he did this thing, he broke this commandment and you knew that that was that you're breaking it and and your response is yes. But I it was I thought it would be great, but I feel so bad about I regret it. Now, I regret what I did and the Lord says You know, so if you knew then how you would have how you would feel about it, then are you telling me you wouldn't have done it and he said, yes, I would not have done it if I'd known that, I would feel this way now and he says, well then then you committed in ignorance, right? And so it will not be, you know, in part. So then we can forgive that he had as it's not in Defiance. You know, one of the things that always struck me especially about the the first five books of Moses was, there was a lot of death in there for screwing up.

40:44 Potentially? Yes. Yeah. There was there were there. Then there was actually yeah, there is a potential but actual, yeah. Severe in punishment sometimes and that used to bug me because I used to, I used to be like, yeah, I get, I get the atonement right or I get as much as I can. The atonement, right? Just talk about the atonement that things vast and expansive and, you know, Eternal but I'm like how does how does the Justice square with that? Well, there's there's this idea that Christ paid for that death and whatnot but I think it goes deeper for us even than that. And I remember the thinking about this a lot when I was first coming into Mormonism. When I join the LDS Church, And my mom was a Catholic and my dad was a southern baptist.

41:36 So I got plenty of Hellfire and brimstone, right? And and I understood that in combination. Yeah, yeah I understood that. That while God was certainly merciful, that Mercy, didn't necessarily mean that you were going to skip the consequence of what you did that. Just meant that there was four. Goodness somewhere. Yeah. And so used to bug me with all these prescriptions in the Old Testament of death. But I remember I'd been a Mormon four, maybe five years and I still struggled with this a little bit, right? I knew in my heart that I'd been forgiven but the academic side of me just ate at me. Like yeah, yeah, but but there's all these other other things and what occurred to me one day as I was just contemplating my place before God.

42:32 Is that in some ways? When repentance happens, That old person does die, right? As I look back at who I was before my conversion. I'm not the same guy, right? I delighted and doing things that were just absolutely messed up, right? I have no other way to say it. I I've often said, if I, you know, I never will. But if I did run for public office has, someone was to come to me and say, hey we have this picture of you. In this compromising position, I'd have to be like, is it pre-1996? If so then yeah, you got me.

43:14 You got me, you got me, right? I mean, I'm not even gonna debate that but looking back it seems like a different person, right? And so I think we all go through this time where we for lack of a better word we kill the old man right? We kill we kill the guy who who used to be or the woman we used to be and we come Again cleanse and newness of like a Romans 6. Yeah baptized unto death, right? But it's still a very intentional act. Right there has to be the recognition that hey, I've screwed up, I've made some mistakes here and in order to fix this old parts of me, have to pass away.

43:56 Yeah, they do absolutely. So I I think sometimes we think that that Christ's atonement just completely get away with anything that Moses ever talked about. Yeah, well, that's not Certainly the case and perhaps the assumptions we made, when we first read, those things were from were too much slanted towards the temporal, right? Yeah. You know what to those those harsh? I mean and there were there were people who are executed, but it in the history of Israel, those things are actually quite rare. Yep. In, you know, in the The times around Jesus day, the Sanhedrin they were they were loath to put someone to death, even for the put Jesus to death, but the general, the general Israelite, even even in cases of adultery and things, which is clearly a deaf deserving offense. According to the law, those that sentence of death was understood to be like a maximum.

45:07 Right maximum sentence. It's kind of like we do. Now, we have the judges, have this leeway and depending on the circumstances of the case they can do anywhere from five years to life or whatever, you know, maybe. And so the death penalty is kind of that maximum possible sentence but they would not normally put people to death. It would, you know, are they repentant? Did they really understand what they were doing? I mean, They would the, the principle of innocent till proven guilty, like the Assumption of innocence was is embedded in the toilet. And that is part of the Israelite judicial system as much as it is in ours.

45:55 And so people would given every benefit of the doubt and we're man were given opportunities to make amends and so on and a lot of that stuff to about, you know, an eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth. Again those things are not those things, aren't necessarily literal either we tend to view those things as overly harsh, but as an eye-for-an-eye example you know maybe you you did you get in a fight, you're stupid with your neighbor and you poke his eye out, or something like that. And they're not just going to poke your eye out because then that just takes Away from your.

46:37 The ability of the whole Community to her adoptive people. So what they do is they assess a last the man who has an eye poked out, how much is your I worth, right? And he'll say whatever say 50,000 shekels are or whatever it is. And then the judge will look at the man and poke the eye on says what do you think about that and he's like oh that's a lot. I don't know. Maybe they maybe they can come to an agreement, maybe it's maybe they agree on forty thousand shekels and then the Judge says. Make your payments. You have many, many nods to a hot iron in the fire over there, right? So yeah, you're not going to your eye poked out. But if you, if you say no, I don't agree or I'm going to fight against this, then maybe you would.

47:23 But right. But that's not, that's not the go to, you know, there's there's a couple things and I love that because that that is true. I took a course in Hebrew tradition and history and one of the things They had had pointed out, was that unlike where we're at? Now I think it started out this way in America, but somehow it's been been perverted and twisted the the Jewish, you know, penal system if you will. Yeah. It was designed to restore that's her summative. Yes. Who had been a, you know, Afflicted, write it while certainly Doling out punishment was was a part of that, more than anything else.

48:07 It was meant to To be restorative and I think we've lost that to a certain extent. Absolutely, and skousen points that out as well in a series, he is called the Thousand-Year Series where it goes through the Old Testament. I think we need to get back to that right back to her, some medical rhyme, and we pay the government fine. Instead, of right instead of restoring our neighbor, right? Right. And there's no, there's no jails. No, in the Torah? No. Like you you commit a crime. You pay it off. We want you out doing work stuff. Yeah, you pay it off and then everything is good and we just keep moving along, we don't pay to keep you locked up and and take the people who are working.

48:51 We take their money to pay for yet. Abort. This guy who's Now not working because we want to punish him. Yeah, it's just crazy. No. And I think that Also, and I think this points out maybe the corruption in our own system. Now There is nothing to be gained by jailing people for a lot of the things we jail them for. So it's ridiculous, right? I think that work you quick to use that and there's, you know, you can go down the rabbit hole and you start looking at the corporations that run the prison. I think people have this idea that, oh, those are all state-run, know their state funded, but there are the private contract, their private contracts. And so there's there's definitely a push to have have certain people in there.

49:36 So Like this idea of going back. So to speak to this idea of restorative kind of system, right is better and Superior, it's far superior. And the other thing is that it is less concerned with violating social norms and is more concerned with how he treated your neighbor and, and has it been good. It is so yeah. Yeah. It I think at some point we'll have to get back to that idea being restorative and really that's what the atonement was about to was, it's restoring it out, that's funny. It's I agree.

50:18 I would love to see that kind of reform. So now to back to Yom Kippur, you know, how it, how would they do that? And what would the priest? The high priest do actually, I want to say one other thing that's kind of pointing to. There's a bunch of things to toxic point to his work, but one of them really interesting. This is Leviticus 16 as I mention this kind of the the main place where the instructions are found for what the high priest does. This is verse 32, and the priest Whom whom he shall anoint and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priests office in his father's stead, she'll make the atonement show, put on linen clothes, even the holy garments. Making atonement for the sanctuary and goes on but it's very interesting.

51:04 It says specifically that the high priest which does this is doing it in his father's to. In other words, he's doing what his father did before him. There's some Illusions. Yeah, yeah. So really beautiful. So what does he do? First of all, there's a, there's a bowl that he offers for to cleanse himself and the priesthood. And then the main thing is that the two goats that are offered. And these, These are as two identical goats as identical as they can make them. And they cast lots over the goats and one of them says his for Jehovah and the other one is for houses, L.

51:46 And so, the one that's for Jehovah, this is the one that goes into the Tabernacle and it's blood gets sprinkled on holy of holies and any is in the purpose of. That one is to cleanse the Tabernacle, basically, and to make the Tabernacle clean from all of the unintentional, kind of accumulation of uncleanness that may have happened in the previous year. So that so that God can still come down and be in their presence, SD, SD ID, It's to clean the place because God says, even there, you either sins will not be their sins, don't only pollute themselves, they pollute the land where I have and pollution uncleanness or you read about it in the, in the Torah.

52:36 It's it's contagious it. You can transfer it transfers from a person to person, right? And there's like this Cymbalta really symbolic lesson about kind of what we were talking about before about each person's. Actions have this ripple effect that goes out from them. And and you know the the cleanliness laws were part of teaching that that concept, I think. So the other the other goat, though goes free. Now, the high priest puts his hands on the head of the goat and pronounces, all the sins of the people on the goat. And basically, this goat carries them away to as Isaiah and as as L is an interesting word. And has been interesting because it's uncertain. Its meaning is uncertain.

53:27 All right? So and that may be intentional because it probably has more than one meaning. There's Hebrew is full of puns. And the these words that have more than one meaning or these words that are very similar and in sound and so we can draw connections there. So anyway, one of the one of the translations of asses L is the scapegoat the goat that escapes, which it does, they send it out? This the the scripture say to send out into the Wilderness traditionally they would take, they give it to some priest and he would lead it, you know, on a leash like 10 miles out into the willings and the other, the other meaning of as is L is that it's, it's very likely a proper name and now, the program for for a demon for like a, this is a, this is one of the names of Lucifer, essentially, gotcha. And and the idea is that Lucifer, As Dominion or power, you know, out in out in the desert in this Wilderness Area and you know, Jerusalem is and Israel is Holy and the Lord's. But, you know, out in the wilderness, you know, that's where the devil has his power so to speak. He's okay, go ahead.

54:37 That's interesting too because that will come up again in Israel's history, with this idea of the, the have the Lord, having a specific place. Right Jerusalem but Lord has a capital, right? If you look at what happens in the Old Testament especially around, Jeremiah where the worship of Canaanite Gods come into play, that's all done out in the wilderness and that's done with a very almost environmentalist feel when you start digging into it interesting. And and so you know, sacred trees and churning the the fields back.

55:19 No feral again as an offering to tube all those sorts of things. So well nothing is like it says in Ecclesiastes is nothing new Under the Sun, right? Exactly. It's we repeat that same process over and over. It's just packaged differently for modern consumption. Amazing. Yeah. So this is goat with all the sins of the people basically gets taken out to the Wilderness at and And not as an offering to as, as well. But the, the idea is that all these, all this unclean, all this uncleanliness, and sins are basically getting dumped right in his backyard like on his head and in the scriptures don't require anything other than it, be taken out into the Wilderness, but later on, at some point, they decided we really need to do.

56:19 Make sure this goat doesn't come wandering back into Camp, you know, after a couple of days or whatever and so they were taken take it out to the Wilderness as prescribed and then the priest would basically push it off a cliff down into a pit, so to speak. And and to make sure that the go didn't come back, you know, and that's got some interesting parallels to because when Christ cast out all the demons out of one man and puts them in swine. Where do the swine go? Yeah. They run over the cliff to Cliff and into their death right. Yep, drowned. But yeah, so there's I mean in the Revelation Revelation talks about the bottom of the pit where it says, bottom of the pit where the demons are kept in Chains.

57:02 So long. So there's definitely some parallels there, right, and parallels to with we Jesus in his work. There's a little echo of of that where we have the two two goats as identical as possible. And one of them gets killed and the Get set free in this kind of happened with Jesus to raise it goes to Pilot and they in the for any time, the sacrificial animals are brought there inspected, they go through a number of inspections, to make sure that they are suitable, right? We don't want something that has a twisted Horner of, you know, a chipped hoof or, you know, any kind of other blemish Flemish.

57:45 Exactly. So course Jesus goes through these examinations. Ins is examined by. You know, the high priest and by Pilot and this and the whole Sanhedrin and and then there's these two identical or as close as possible. So goats are presented in Jesus cases, Jesus, and there's another man. Another prisoner name is Barabas, write down the time Barabbas, EF Barabbas Barabbas. Yeah, so which that in that name means bar means Is Aramaic for son and Abba's is father.

58:26 So you have Jesus and Son of the father there that the two were people presented, right? So they're so there's a course, Barabbas wasn't actually a bad guy. He was actually a bad guy, but but their names are the same, right? Yeah, right. And so they're presented in and, you know, one of them get set free and one of them gets sacrificed, right? So So that's kind of beautiful thing. Now, the all the feasts and including Yom Kippur, which is fast, but they all, they all have both commemoration part as part of it. And also, there are shadows of things to come in the future. So when we talk about Yom Kippur the thing that's coming in the future is the final judgment.

59:14 As the end of the days of all, this is when the books are closed, this is when the Sheep are separated from the goats. and and and all of that, but when we, when there's as far as the memorial piece, this commemorates when Israel received the law, okay, was on Yom Kippur and some of your listeners might think that's a little strange because They may know that the law was given at Mount Sinai on or near Shabu. She's the Feast of Weeks. It's in the New Testament known as Pentecost. But the law was given then, but wasn't actually received by Israel then because we write the whole golden calf thing. Right there all there at the mountain, bottom of the mountain and they hear God's voice.

1:00:09 He comes down, there's the sound of the shofar, right? And that the darkness and the lightning, and the thunder and fire, and it's a fearful experience. And they basically tell Moses you need to To go up to talk to Jehovah because we're we are, we can't take it. It's too much too intense. So he goes up for 40 days and the first first set of tablets this is in Exodus chapter 24. First set of tablets says Moses and Aaron and nadav, and avihu and 70 of the elders. They all went up part way, kind of into the mountain there and they saw scissors verse 10 of Exodus 24, they saw the god of Israel and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone as it were the body of Heaven in its clearness. So this beautiful stone and who has a vision of God's throne room.

1:01:14 And also sees this is Bluestone back the throne room and even God's Throne is made of And then Moses actually went into the went up further. And And it says, let's see verse 12 and the Lord said unto Moses, come up, onto me in the mount and be there, and I will give the tables of stone and the law and Commandments, which I have written that thou mayest teach them. So, the very first set of tablets the Lord actually gives to Moses directly, the Lord wrote on them with his own finger. And, and the only Stone mentioned, is this Stone that's in the Throne room, this blue sapphire, it is very likely that the original tablets were blocks of sapphire stone, which is your very hard and beautiful. And the law was written on that and and Moses ends up breaking those.

1:02:20 When he comes down and find the people are all perverting themselves and worshiping the golden calf, right? But that that Color blue, which is mentioned throughout the scriptures. Right. The high priest garment for one is has this red and blue and but those are those are supposed to remind people of The Commandments which were originally on this sapphire stone or the translation may also read them lapis lazuli but which is another beautiful blue stone. So, they don't, they don't get the tablets then. And there's a big, there's a little, there's a little Civil War, right? Some of the people are actually killed there, right by the Levites who are remain faithful.

1:03:08 And Aaron Escape somehow but he's very repentant. And so, but Moses says, I need to go back up into the mount. So, now that first time, when he goes up in the mountain, he's fasting forty days and he goes, he turns around right after that and goes right back up for 40 more days and it's fasting and pleading with the Lord to intercede, and he is where he says, you know if you If someone's gonna be blotted out of The Book of Life block me out, save them and and he has a little discussion back and forth with the Lord. And finally, the Lord says, I'll will, I will forgive them and because of your intercession. So really beautiful thing there and then then the scriptures say that Moses after that stays for another 40 Days fasting. And this time, he gets the tablets. But God says, you're going to need to start chiseling. Like you need to write these, you are going to write on these Exodus. 34 says you write on these. Everything that was on the last ones - the higher and I are long.

1:04:23 I'm going to says I'm going to give them and they're still going to be my people. I'm going to I'm going to give them the lower stuff which was on the first tablets, but we're going to withhold the priest and so it's like you said there is forgiveness, but there's still consequences. Yeah, yeah. I think so often and it really jumped out at me. The last time I went through the Old Testament often we look at Moses, the lawgiver right? Which he was absolutely But for whatever reason, we tend to forget that Moses is constantly, you know, advocating for the children of Israel. Constantly, there are several times for the Lord's, like I'm done.

1:05:09 I can't, you know, I can't work with them and it takes Moses going on. Hold on. What? You know, how about this, right? And and the Lord in several times, the Lord says, for your sake Moses? Yeah, for your sake. I'll work with him more, but we're going to do this now, right? And, and it's so interesting to me that somehow, Moses humanity and love gets lost a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I think that there's this conception about Moses and about the whole law about that. It's all just very harsh, right?

1:05:50 When in fact there is plenty, plenty of mercy and forgiveness throughout the Old Testament to, but it's also adults also not pulling any punches about how serious got is about having a holy people. Yeah, you know, and that's the one thing that I think we lose as Mormons or Christians Is just how rich that symbolism was. I I mean I have one friend who is Jewish, who tells me? We'll never have milk at the same meal when we have meet and I was like well why is that? He's like, you never mix life and death ever and it's that sort of symbolism and richness that I think we could really benefit from as a people? Yeah, there's a is a, is a very rich culture of Symbolism and tradition.

1:06:43 Yep. Now so so Moses fast. Three consecutive sets of 40 days. And so when you, when you count those off, From the Feast of Weeks or shovel load, you will be the first to 80 Days. 80 days will bring you to the beginning of the sixth month. And then 40 days will take you through the six month, which is June 30 days issue and and then ten days into the seventh month and you will land right on Yom Kippur.

1:07:23 So, this is, this is, this is part of the Of Yom Kippur part of the remembrance, is that this is when we actually received God's word, right? Moses brings down these tablets these endure. These are what gets put into the Ark of the Covenant, we have these stone tablets in this golden box. And now I'm going to tie it into the restoration because we have we have some interesting things to say about these as well. So last time, we talked about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon Now Joseph received, I mean, Joseph went to a gold box and sent a stone box right?

1:08:03 And got right, a Golden Plates golden record which is interesting because it's kind of the inverse. Yeah. And that was on the Feast of trumpets for Rosh Hashanah and but of course, people were at people knew about the plates coming forth, right? Knew that Joseph was getting close to getting them and people were watching him and so on. So as soon as he Mm. He did not take them home and historical records says that he hid them in the woods for 10 days and then which is the same tension a period between Russia Hashanah and yeah. So when Joseph actually actually got the plates so that he could start reading them and have them to start working on them, that was also on Kapoor. So that's another thing that we can win. Yom Kippur comes.

1:08:56 We can think about think about that as well. Wow, so beautiful things. You know, and I supposed to a certain extent, Joseph does his work of translating unseen. He does. Yeah, and he is, he is the high priest? Yeah. In right. He has, he has the breastplate of the year and thummim. Yeah. So he's almost fulfilling that kind of, again, in a way where he's not seeing, right? We've all seen the pictures of the, the curtain, the curtain or whatever and no one else sees it for a while. They end up seeing it, you know, the witnesses at the end but no one sees the work.

1:09:41 Yeah, right. Which is an interesting parallel as well, that's good. So last thing I'll say I guess about this is we've covered a lot of the points really well, but I will say one other thing I forgot doesn't mention good during those during the ten for Yom Kippur basically we do we just have a we just have a Sabbath, it's not going to it's not on the Sabbath whenever that happens during the week. So we'll take a rental have a rest day and just be a day of reading is traditional to read the Book of Jonah, okay? On Yom Kippur Cuz that's all about repentance, right? Not really known as repentance but Nineveh and about and about the mercy that were talking about Jonas, kind of upset, the God's merciful, right? Yeah.

1:10:26 And was like, what would you rather take that city? Is full of people for my children. Aren't I'm so much happier that they repented than that. I had to destroy that like I'd rather Spare that. So so read the Book of Jonah and during those days of all we're also going to get together and do baptisms and that's going to be on October 2nd which is a Sunday. You're going to meet at 3 p.m. at Willow Park in Lehi. It's right on the right on the banks of the Jordan River there. And so these are not going to be baptisms. You have to join any group or any way that these are just for to Into just renew your commitment, get on God's side, get on God's side. I like that.

1:11:16 It's our slogan for this episode, right? Get on God's side. Yeah, so that's gonna be a 3-piece 10. And then we'll, we'll probably have a sacrament meeting stuff after that, for anyone who's interested on now, when exactly Yom Kippur is, is going to depend on whether or not we see the new moon, right? And where I'm we're planning on that. This is something now the 25th. So we're planning on, we're hoping to see it tomorrow. Evening if we don't then it will it will be. It will certainly be the following day. So so Yom Kippur is going to be either, you know, October 6th or 7th.

1:11:57 And so we usually get together and have kind of break the fast, nice after that. And so, they'll be information about that on the website holding on the Facebook page yet, so it should say. So, Awesome. So real quick, and then you kind of mentioned it before two questions. Before we wrap this up I have As a believer in the restored gospel, a Mormon, how do you celebrate Yom Kippur? It's well, there's a couple things we have. I mentioned last time we have these YouTube playlist, right? So, we have songs and short little messages about Yom Kippur that we that we play.

1:12:48 And we'll start, we'll start playing those as soon as. The shine is over the place, right? So it kind of gets us into the mood, thinking about these things thinking about the work that high priests had ancient Lee thinking about the work that Jesus did is our high priest thinking about the Book of Mormon, the Golden Plates, the thinking about judgment such coming. Think about my relationships with my family, why is my children my neighbor's my little brothers and sisters both Literally and, you know, brothers and sisters in the gospel and what can I do to make things, right? Because they're nearing, there have been people that I have offended. There have been ways that I have been even if not intentional. There's times when I've been careless, right? And times when I've taken for granted my relationship with God and my relationship with my fellowmen in one way or another. And so it's time for introspection and for He knows things, right?

1:13:53 Apologizing to people. Coming to state of Oneness. That moment atonement with both man and God, then my last question, how do you feel going into Yom Kippur versus coming out of it? Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, going in. It's very it's a somber thing like scriptures say like you're not supposed to do anything except afflict your souls and then you just hope and you have faith on the work that the high priestess do. And, and And there's there's a sense of anticipation but then when it's finished, the work is done.

1:14:35 The work on the high priest is done. Then there's an atmosphere of Celebration, we have our our break, the fast, and it's a, it's a It's a jubilant ton. So so going in, it's a somber and coming out is joyful, and that's kind of the way. The atonement is too fearful trembling going in, but then when it's done, it's finished, then there's nothing to do but Rejoice about it. Yeah, absolutely red. That's kind of a feeling of renewal. Yeah, awesome. Yeah. And that it is that so awesome. All right. Josh, you're the man, your stead, I always appreciate cockatoo you I love it.

1:15:18 It's great. Thank you for having me. All right, next one is Tabernacles right, correct. All right. Look forward to talk to you, then bye everybody.