Episode #234: The Hidden Revelations Series: An Overview W/Ben Shaffer

0:12 And shape. Back again, bro. Yeah, good to be here. I'm excited to talk about Revelation today. I am too, you know, and look, late last year I had drew back on the podcast right before, you know, we had the pre-order that he had the pre-order sales on these things. The pre-order sales for the new restored version of the triple. Safety. You got the green copy, huh? Yeah, I just like the color green. I I just, I went black, right? I just feel like, you know, solid, solid black cover, right? Nothing fancy, but I get it. But no, I mean, I, I start going through them right? And like the first place I went, right was straight back to those revelations because I'm not sure. Like, I know I've read, I've read the LDS edition. I want to find out what's different, what's more, right? So that's the first place you want to look. And see, right.

1:05 And, and the other thing is there is something different about holding them inside of a book that has scripture paper right there. There's something that just sets the tone for that. That's a little bit different than reading them at, say, out of a scholarly manuscript or something like that. Right. Or a pamphlet or a or a website. Yeah, I can look it up. But having it in my scriptures, it's like just feel so much more complete, you know what I mean? I've got, I've got my scriptures right here. And I don't have to look at 100 different resources just to figure out what's missing or where something is. It's all right here, Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And so as, as I was thumbing through those and got excited, I'm like, you know what I need to do? I need to do a series on like these revelations that are lesser known and, and, you know, really parse it out and let people hear the voice of the Lord come through on these things because it really does.

2:01 And so this is going to be the first of a series. And I don't think this is going to be the kind of series where it's like boom, boom, boom, one week right after another. I think these will be sprinkled throughout. And so, but this first one, man, we're going to go over the four hidden revelations, the four big ones, the. One, and of course, The funny thing is, is now that I'm reading them out of the restored version, there's even bigger ones really. But these four, really, I wanted to talk about the four hidden revelations, specifically those four, because that really sets the historical stage for why isn't this already in there? Why isn't it in my LLDS edition? Well, the history as to why is fascinating and I think it helps us understand where the divergent comes from and or why some things are missing. So yeah, starting with those four, each one has a very powerful reason for why it was the revelation was given, what it means and why it's hidden, and what does it mean that it's hidden.

3:00 Yeah. Right the the most obvious answer to that is what do you mean by hidden revelations? Well, you mean the church hid them from the membership? Well yes, but they're hidden because they contain hidden knowledge. They contain deeper concepts than a lot of people are ready for. The church couldn't have hidden them if the membership didn't want them hidden, right? If the membership hadn't turned from them. And I think that there's a reason that I have some sympathy for why people leave certain revelations hidden in their own life. You know, someone said, Gee, I can't find the TV remote.

3:43 I couldn't find the TV remote for days and days and days. And then I found out it was under my scriptures, right? Well, shoot, you should have been picking those up. Every revelation is a hidden revelation until you receive it for yourself, till you learn it right. And so, so often I think as I talked about these hidden revelations, I want us to think what's hidden in my life because are these truths that I'm not ready to accept. Yeah. Because we're always hiding our own eyes. We're hiding our own eyes from revelations that we're not ready. For 100 percent, 100%. That's such a good point, right? Because just 'cause they're out there doesn't mean that we necessarily want them, right? I go back to when I first became a Mormon. I remember getting up off my knees. This was just into the LDS church thinking I don't want to be a Mormon, right?

4:37 Mormons are weird. They believe weird things. I don't want to do this, but none the less, I knew what I had known at that point, and I didn't have a choice. Now, likewise with these revelations, if there's something in there that you don't like, chances are that's the one you need to read first, right? Because it, it's, it's going to hurt a little bit, but, but it's going to hurt the way it hurts when you go to the gym, right? It's right. If this is good sacrifice, a good sacrifice is going to make you grow. It's going to give you something of great value, even if it's hard to. Yes, it's hard to do. Yes. And look, you know, I, I, I tell people this a lot when when they ask about these sorts of things, I'm like, look, just because you read it and you start to internalize it doesn't mean that you're expected to have it mastered at that moment, right? This is all a process.

5:31 So don't be afraid of that. Don't shy away from that discomfort. That discomfort is usually a sign of growth, and that's a good thing. And it's a very good thing. I mean, I think that that can be abused. We've had, I think it's worth mentioning that in the Mormon fundamentalist context, there will be false teachers, false leaders, false prophets who will tell you, oh, this discomfort you're having is a good discomfort of you learning to sacrifice. And then it turns out that it's serving their own ends. They're making you sacrifice to the fault, a false God. And then they will take advantage of that. But it is true that true sacrifice when you even when you're putting your faith in the right place, it's still sacrifice. It's still hard.

6:13 And I think that most, a lot of Mormons have lost sight of that. You know, in that context, a lot of LDS people think that they can turn away from certain things or not have to know them. And then it won't be binding on, oh, I'll be saved in my ignorance. People think, no, a man has saved no faster than he gains knowledge, said the Prophet Joseph Smith. And so if, if you're talking about sacrifice to the right God, yeah, it's, it's going to be painful, it's going to be difficult, but it's going to be worth it. And it's important to make that sacrifice. 100% you know, I it it it's it rings true to something I once heard a man say that I really like the saying, which is the truth will absolutely set you free, but it's going to make you miserable 1st and.

7:02 Right There was a there's a little thing someone said, you know, lies are so comfortable because they're squishy. They can do anything you want them to be. They can. You can mold them to whatever comfortable worldview you have, and lies will always be comfortable. The truth, however, doesn't bend. It doesn't change. You have to accommodate it, and that makes it hard sometimes and pokey and difficult to embrace. But it's worth embracing because it will change you to match it. Yes, yes, truth. Truth has no agenda. It exists simply because it's true. And because it has no agenda, it also doesn't care how you feel, right? It doesn't care about, you know, perceptions or any of those other things. Now, those are all things that we have to contend with this people.

7:48 And I will say this that it gets easier, but you, you got you got to do the hard thing first. You got to do the first hard thing, which is up the weight and then this. Is the this is the first point I want to make before we get into hidden revelations? Is are they hidden from our sight because we are not ready to receive them? Because we don't want to accept? That's the first question. The second question that I think that we have to ask ourselves when we're looking for hidden revelations is are we, are we willing to embrace them in such a way that they truly become known to us? And what will that require of us? Section 132, for example, is a hidden revelation, even though it's published in everyone's Doctrine Covenants because it says those who will receive the this law must abide it. Well, how many people really receive it just because it's printed in their Doctrine Covenants? Now in order to truly receive a hidden revelation, you have to receive it for yourself, the confirmation of the spirit. You know, I really think that one of the reasons why it's so hard to accept revelation is because we learn line upon line, precept upon precept, the milk before the meat. And there's this saying along those same lines from Eastern religion that only when the student is ready does the master appear.

9:12 And I think that a lot of people have to, a lot of us as, as LDS people, we have to recognize that if what we really believe is all truth, if our religion encompasses all truth, then that means we're probably not ready for all of it all at once. We have to learn to accept things line upon line, precept upon precept. So if somebody's saying I love all this meaty doctrine, you have to accept it now and you don't see how it fits and you're not ready for it, I think that it is OK to say I don't say that fits in yet. I'm not ready for it. What's not OK is to assume that we are going to receive all the blessings without all the obedience. You have to instead say I'm still progressing. I might not be ready for that yet. I might not accept this or that yet. I might want to put that on the shelf or set it aside, but are you setting it aside because you're not accepting the fact that you need progress and that you're too comfortable where you are?

10:14 Or are you willing to accept that there are blessings that you will not receive in less you embrace further light and knowledge? So this is the second thing that I want us to ask about each of these things, which is the question of truth. This is what it was. The question of truth is this. If the truth does not change and we receive and when we receive any blessing from God is by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated, as it says in Doctrine Covenant section 130. We have to approach these and all revelations from a place of saying whether I it's hidden to me right now or I can't accept it yet. Yes, that's understandable.

10:57 But you will not receive the blessing until you fulfill a truth. Because again, a truth, a truth isn't something that depends upon our opinions. It doesn't depend upon our preferences. It doesn't depend upon our willingness or or preparedness to accept. A truth is independent in that sphere in which it is placed. And as Joseph Smith said, we're saved no faster than we gain knowledge. And that truth is independent in that sphere which is placed. What he's saying is, is there might be many principles we don't know. It doesn't mean they're not operating on us. OK thing with this in terms of medical science, it even if we don't know if we've been exposed to a particular pathogen, our our opinion about it doesn't matter. What matters is the facts.

11:40 Are we going to have the health to fight off this infection? Are we, do we have the right environment for this? Do we have the right environment for that? It doesn't matter if we didn't know. And so I think sometimes people think when it comes to spiritual things that these rules are different and they're not. The rules of truth are always applicable the same as they were for anybody else. Just because someone was ignorant of the truth to say during the Black Death and they didn't know what was causing this, that didn't make the Black Death any or less real. They were still going to live or die depending on whether or not they got they got infected. And the fact that they did not understand, they did not understand what was causing it only made them more vulnerable to losing that blessing of life or succumbing to the curse.

12:29 It's the same thing for us right now. And so even though the first thing is, is why is this hidden? What do we need to do to accept it? Why is it out there? The second thing we need to recognize is the mere fact that these weren't canonized or were canonized and then decanonized or anything else like that is that people want to say, do I have to accept it? Do I need to accept these revelations? Do I need to accept this meat I'm not ready for? The answer is both yes and no. The truth will operate regardless of your feelings. The truth of the blessing that comes from obedience, the curse that comes from disobedience, is upon all mankind. Whether they know the truth or not, whether they accept or not, whether they reject it or not.

13:10 Those truths are going to come and judgement will be just. But part of the justice of that judgement is the mercy that we have the opportunity to learn line upon line. But don't think that you can reject this or any revelation of God and be forever justified in burying your head in the sand. Because the truth is the truth. That is such a great point. And you know, I, I had talked to people last year when the 1886 revelation was, was acknowledged by the church. Right. And that was such a powerful moment. Right. Yeah, that was a judge. To actually just say, look, it's a revelation to John Taylor. It actually does exist.

13:55 And the most shocking thing to me that I'm I'm going to want to get into, because this is one of the four hidden revelations, is that along with it came some very incriminating letters from people like J Reuben Clark, where J Reuben Clark literally has a letter right next to that document from, from John Taylor that says we have to lie about this. 86 It never let it come up. Again, lie about this. We're please the the instructions are hide this envelope, hide this letter. We're going to lie about this. We have to keep this hidden. It's too explosive. Yep. You know, I was in Hans Mill when when I got the phone call on that.

14:35 Now I won't say from who I got it from, but I got I was in Hans Mill. I'm like, are are you kidding? And they're like, Nope, tomorrow watch and I'm like, OK, here we go. Right. So I woke up the next morning. Sure enough, there it was. But I remember when it came out, the knee jerk reaction to those who didn't like the revelation was, well, we never voted on it so it doesn't. Matter. And this is saying we didn't vote on it. It's not binding on us, right? Right. But what does that mean? Like, look, they get to vote on what they will accept or what they won't accept. They don't get to vote on what is real. What is the? Truth, right?

15:17 Right. And understanding that distinction, I think is that that's why this is so important to understand that there's a big distinction here. Yeah, You, you personally, you can accept or reject this, but understand the consequences of that. You will not get the blessing if you reject the blessing, you will fall under the curse. If you, if you're ignorant of the truth, you, you're, you're under danger. At the same time, I understand that these things are hard and we have to live in line upon line. And if you're like, look, this doesn't fit. This doesn't fit in architecture of my faith, that's one thing. And I get that, but are you progressing to the point where eventually it will, or are you saying, oh, I'm comfortable here? Like I was saying about comfortable lies and hard truths?

16:06 You see, I'm comfortable here. The lie that most people will be embracing is I will get all the blessings anyway. Right, right, right. I, I tended to look at it like, OK, you can vote if you want it in your Canon or not, or if you accept it. But unless you're willing to call John Taylor a liar and said he didn't receive a revelation, he was deceived, it's still a revelation. And you have to be willing to live with that and what that means and all of its subsequent, oh, trials that come along with it. You have to understand that it stands independent of what you want, of what your feelings are.

16:53 This happened. And how? And I think that that's the dangers that people will say, well, the church didn't accept it. We didn't vote on it, therefore it's not binding on us. And I'm like, well, yes and no. Yes, you don't have to live this. Yes, you don't have to accept this. But if you don't, you can't get the blessing associated with it. It the blessing is it is, you know, it's dependent upon the law upon which is predicated. You just don't get the blessing I'm not trying to make and, and God doesn't make us accept anything. He doesn't say you have to be blessed. He says, you know, I, I, I the Lord, you know, I, I command and I revoke and yet then the then men receive not the blessing.

17:37 And that's the formula that I think a lot of people miss. They think it's so long as I'm checking the boxes that I accepted I had to check the boxes of, then I'll get all the blessings. I will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I will become a God in heaven. You certainly will receive the blessing for every commandment you keep. Absolutely, and that is a good thing. I'm not saying it's all or nothing. I'm not saying this should be black and white. Heaven is in black and white. This is why there's different degrees of glory and all kinds of things. But if you want the blessing, you have to obey the law upon which is predicated, which means you cannot reject any such commandment and expects to receive that blessing. Yeah, I, I was going to say if if you actually put that argument in kind of today's terms, if you will, or layman's terms, it's this.

18:28 What you're basically saying is that God gives a revelation and then we choose not to accept it. And God's like, well, I guess that wasn't true. I guess what I said wasn't, wasn't binding after all. It's kind of a silly a silly prospect. That's a silly prospect, right? It because it denies something that we know is true about everything else in life. If someone says, oh, I don't believe in germs, that doesn't mean germs don't affect them, right? Right, right, right. Absolutely. Yeah, it Yeah, No, the germs will have an effect. Sorry. Effects, whether you believe in them or not, right? Like, right, But I didn't vote for that. Look, I, I know that you didn't vote for that, and I know that you don't believe in washing your hands, but the effects are going to happen one way or the other, right?

19:12 Like you want the blessing of avoiding the germs. You got to learn how to avoid the germs, you know. Right, right. Science. Science tells me if I pile a bunch of pizza in my pie hole, I'm going to get fat. You're going to get fatter. I didn't. It's a fact. I did. I did not vote for that Ben, but damn it, I can attest that's. The way it is, that is the way it is, whether we like it or not. You know, this is the way. I want to read you something Bruce R Mcconkey said about this. And it's funny because he was talking to the the RLDS at the time. This is in 1976. And he gave a talk called the Common Consent of the Church about this question of what do we accept? What don't we accept? And he was saying to a bunch of RLDS people that their Doctrine Covenants was deficient because it had removed so many of the revelations accepted by Joseph Smith. Now, the same argument applies to anybody who rejects the revelation, but I do.

20:06 But you know, for context, that's what Bruce Arm and Conquer was talking. He wasn't necessarily talking about the four hidden revelations, but it's this, this principle is true. And and Elder Bruce Arm and Conquer was right when he said this. He says men have their agency, of course, and they can accept or reject any truth of which they have knowledge, but they cannot change the truth or its effects upon men as individuals who are in groups. Men may reject the blessings that would have come by obedience, but for the rejection they are damned. All the revelations of God are binding, whether the Church accepts them by vote or not. If they are rejected by vote or otherwise, those so acting only cut themselves off from the promised blessings.

20:46 It's. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. Well, yeah, I know that this is one of the things that's hard about quoting people like Bruce R Mcconkey is that he had one foot on the ship and 1 foot on shore, and the ship left the harbor and he fell in to the drink. He was trying to have his K community, too, and then defend the church and hold on to the mainstream Elias Church. Well, at the same time he had beliefs that were highly incompatible with the direction the church was headed, so. Sure, sure. And look to to. And anyways, I'm going to bear a testimony. Was speaking prophetically when he said that. At least that is a true principle. Right.

21:30 That is, that is a true principle. You are right. All right. OK, that's enough. We won't we won't do that anymore. No more beating up on Pro or Bruce R. All right, well if we're not beating up on Bruce, I guess we better dive in and find out. What are these 4 hidden revelations? Why were they hidden? So the first of the the four hidden revelations are two revelations that were revealed to Wilfred Woodruff and two that were given to John Taylor. Now, if you look at the 4 hidden revelations, there's a bunch of places online where you can read them. But the most handy place, of course, is the new restored version, right? These ones shameless plug for Drew. Shameless plug, buy one of these, right? OK.

22:15 And you will find that the first of the four hidden revelations is listed as Wilfred Woodruff #4 in the restored version Wilfred Woodruff section #4 It's also found in various pamphlets. The four hidden revelations, the identity of the Doctrine Covenants. This was supposed to be Man, that's really bleached out. You can't hardly see the words anyway. The four hidden, the agenda of the rock and covenants, all these things are places where this has been. Because these are really important ones that get quoted all the time. But the first one is Wilfred Woodruff #4 in the the stored version. And in that it's quite a long revelation. There's a lot of good stuff in here, all right. But it was given to Wilfred Woodruff before he was president of church in 1880.

23:04 And it's interesting because of the context. This is also one of the reasons why it was hidden. He was in hiding. He was running from the Marshalls who were going to incarcerate him. So, you know, it's about 50 verses long, depending on how you cut it up. And it is a comfort to Wilford Woodruff while he is on the run, while he's in hiding. And so he he's asking the Lord, what should we do about all of this here? We've tried so hard to preach your word and gather the Saints. And now we're in this terrible situation. Well, interestingly enough, along with our whole voting thing that we just talked about is we're in the Doctrine Covenants.

23:55 Are we given instructions about voting by the communists of the church to accept new revelations as part of our Canon or not? Turns out it's not in there, it's in this. HALL, OH. Interesting canonization procedures are actually in this one that has been rejected from the cannon. Yeah, I was going to say, let me sum this up. Let me just see if I got my mind wrapped around this. This is like the epitome of ironic, right? It's like where do we get the the the instruction on where to vote something in his cannon or not from one of the revelations that weren't voted on to be put in as cannon right. So if that is absent, shouldn't you just accept all revelation then?

24:42 Well, sure in your cannon. I mean, I'm. Just it's not a lawyer. Ben but. Right now, again, I don't think the Lord is saying we get to reject revelation in this section either in this revelation. But yeah, isn't that, isn't that odd? So technically, if there's no, if there's no procedure for voting, then. But yes, it is in this section toward the end of this Wolford Woodruff Section 5, it actually talks about. And whenever any one of you receives the word of the Lord, let it be written and presented in your counsels and whatever by united consent you deem wisdom to be presented to the people, that then be presented by the President, my servant, John Taylor, as the word of the Lord. In this way you'll uphold him and strengthen his hands, that all the burden will not lie upon one man. In other words, this is how you do it. The revelation gets received.

25:43 It gets passed up through the councils of the church. The councils of the church, therefore vote on it, accept it, present it to the people. That's how it gets canonized. And wouldn't you know it? Yeah, if that procedure is is not being canonized, then maybe you have to, it's a good argument. Maybe you have to accept all of them. Anyway, Let's see here. In the restored version, it has 74 verses. And so that would really be the section that's verse 66 through 73 is what I just is what I just read, right? So it's in that section, it's in that paragraph.

26:26 So the other thing though, that's tricky, why was this rejected? It was accepted. It was this revelation was presented to the car of the 12 apostles. This revelation was accepted by the car of the 12 in the First Presidency as the word of the Lord. And it was published originally by the church and thereby presented to the church for their acceptance. So essentially, this first of the four hidden revelations was basically canonized in about 1884. But what then happened? The Edmunds Tucker act got much harsher and everyone went back and everyone was still in hiding, right?

27:10 And by the time everyone came back from being in hiding, really it was the manifesto that ended this period of the Mormon underground. So they're coming out of hiding and saying, OK, we're no longer, we're no longer just on the run. Maybe we can start printing church publications again. Maybe we can start holding all of our conferences and our meetings and having the hierarchy of the church actually function again instead of everyone being running all over the country and hiding. Well, then comes the formal bureaucratic side of things of publishing this in the Doctrine Covenants. Well, by then they'd already done the manifesto. It's very, very hard to to canonize something that you have rejected as a people, right?

27:57 And so that's one of the reasons why this basically canonized revelation doesn't get published broadly after that. The other problem, of course, is he talks a lot about setting down destruction and judgments upon the wicked and judgments upon the church. If the church rejects plural marriage in this revelation, in much harder for people in the 1890s to say, Oh yeah, let's canonize that. That will formally require us to acknowledge our own sin as a people in rejecting these principles. Right. So I'm I'm going to turn verse 30 in the addendum because I'm more familiar with my versification than the one that's in the restored version.

28:42 Verse 30 in the addendum says judgments will begin upon my house, and from thence will they go forth unto the world that the wicked cannot escape. In other words, the first judgments are to be poured out upon the church. If the church rejects the fullness of the gospel, and then only secondarily to the rest of the wicked, well, that's a hard truth that people don't want to hear. The people of the Church wanted to hear judgments upon our enemies, sure, but they didn't want to hear judgments upon themselves. Right. And you know, that's so that these are hard, hard truths. Now, essentially this idea that judgement goes down upon the church first is already in several other places in Scriptures as well. But it's still a hard thing to to feel comfortable with, right? The judge fascinating on the Lord's house. Yeah, You know, there's a couple things there. One is it's fascinating that it was, it was essentially canonized, right?

29:42 Not essentially it was canonized and it doesn't sound like there was a decanonization process. Instead it they just stopped publishing it right We just right. Well, and actually, that's the same thing with the doctrine portion of the Doctrine Covenants that we're excited to have in the restored version here is that, oh, look, the Lectures on Faith, they're back in here. How were they decanonized? They weren't ever decanonized. We just stopped printing them, that's all. Right, right. And so there's no sort of decommission or anything on this. So this one is actually like, even if you use the standard of being voted on and canonized, it's still a force. You just don't have any record of it at the moment. Right, well, and and let me read you verse 35 from the addendum version as well. He says.

30:27 My people shall not be hindered in the building of my temples and My holy name if they'll hearken to my voice and do as I command them right. The Lord was was promising Wilfred Woodruff at the time, and what a great comfort it must have been to him. And yet it didn't turn out that way. Lord was saying that he would fight our battles right. He he even commands the 12 to go into their secret chambers and wash their feet. This is the ordinance of dusting of feet against the leaders of the nation of the United States of America in open defiance of them. And that if they would do that and then, but there's a lot of ifs in this kind of prophecy, right? If the people would stand firm in their testimony, if the apostles would would wash their feet against the nation, if everybody would essentially stand up for what was right, then the Lord himself would fight their battles. And that is a glorious and important thing. And yet they didn't do it.

31:32 I'm sorry the church didn't do it. And so when I say that when you reject a blessing you, when you reject A revelation, you reject the blessing associated with it, I'm sorry. This also fits. I now I don't bring this condemnation to Wilfred Woodruff. I know a lot of more fundamentalists would. I think Wilfred Woodruff did as he was commanded and that he washed his skirts of the blood and sins of his generation. I think he did what was right, but the church ever demanded more. Right. Ever demanded more concessions to the Gentiles? And so, you know, he says he's, he's giving them this opportunity that if they will obey, they will receive the blessing.

32:19 But they didn't obey and they didn't receive the blessing. And therefore it's hard to want to canonize it because it's a reminder of our disobedience as a people. Maybe not individually. Again, I think many individual people are still still have and still do receive their exultation. But the Church as a people would be hindered. The Church as a people didn't fill it, fulfill this commandment and thereby thereby they brought upon themselves the curse of further judgments and further, further wickedness. Now there's, there's another thing in here. I I definitely need to, I definitely need to read because it's going to lead us into the next two sections, which are the two sections from John Taylor.

33:05 The Lord told Wolford Woodruff, I've taken many of the apostles unto myself for I take whom I will take and preserve a life of my own preserve according to the council of my own will. OK. And then he says in the verse before verse 41 in the addendum version, he says, I the Lord have raised up unto you, my servant John Taylor, to preside over you and be the lawgiver under my church. He has mingled his blood with that of the martyred prophets. Nevertheless, while I have taken my servants just from having myself, I preserve my servant John Taylor for a wise purpose in me. So he's giving a prophecy about some more prophecies, which is that John Taylor wasn't just some benchwarmer. He was preserved.

33:48 He was a twice martyred prophet. He was martyred in Carthage, but delivered by God for a wise purpose in him. Both Joseph and Hiram received 4 balls before they fell, before they were, before they died, right? And then Joseph was shot again in a savage manner after he was dead. So he, I just received 5-5 shots, but they both took four shots. I think there's a pattern in this, right? So Hiram was shot 4 times, Joseph was shot 4 times, and John Taylor was shot 4 times. Really. And and Willard Richards escaped without even a hole in his robe and was the only one wearing the garment of the holy priesthood. Well, and look. And when they say not a hole in his robe, he did get like his ear grazed or something, you know, something very Trumpy and that.

34:34 But anyway, he got he got a little cut. He got a little cut. But if he escaped without a hole in his robe. But it's interesting that each received 44 balls. And the Lord even says, I, I take whom I will take, and I preserve whom I'll preserve. And I preserve John Taylor from his martyrdom for wise purposes. And what was that wise purpose? Well, we're going to find out about Prophet Seer and revelator John Taylor and the work he did. Because I'm sorry, but the LDS Church has buried this wise purpose. They've pretended that John Taylor was just a benchwarmer, and they've rejected all of his sections of the Doctrine Covenants, all of his revelations. So the next one, the next of the four hidden revelations, is John Taylor #5 in the restored version. This is interesting because John Taylor Section 5 looks a little bit more custodial.

35:30 I guess it's about qualifications for different offices in the priesthood, things like that. But it also turns out This is why it was rejected. This is why he gets in trouble. So it says. Thus saith the Lord of the 12 and the priest and the people of my church. Let my servants George Teasdale and Hebrew Grant be appointed to fill the vacancies in the 12 that you may be fully organized and repaired for your laborers developing upon you, for you have a great work to perform. And then proceed. Proceed to fill up the presenting from 70s and assist our guys in the bottom of priesthood. Who are your Co laborers in the ministry. You may appoint Seymour B Young to fill up the vacancy. The presiding from the 70s if he will conform to my law. And then here's the important verse for it does not meet. The men who will not abide my law shall preside over my priesthood.

36:17 Well, what law was it? I'm sure it was just. Three people had to fulfill in order for them to preside celestial marriage. I I'm sure it was just being sealed to one woman, right? That's that's all it was. Nope, they were already all sealed to one woman and they had to accept the revelation of God to accept their plural lives and enter celestial plural marriage. Otherwise they couldn't preside. And why is that? Why is that? And I think it's interesting because I think what he's saying what here verse 5, there's a very much a it's very much an eternal principle. Those we will not abide.

36:57 My law cannot preside over my priesthood. The Lord isn't just saying I'm making up an arbitrary rule here again, he's revealing to US one of these hard truths to which we must learn to conform. That is just a eternal principle. How could he have a president of the 70 who presided over righteous 70s who were fulfilling the law that he was not. He couldn't preside over them because he didn't have all the same blessings, the same insight, the same power. Again, when the Lord talks about marriage, he's not doing what we mortals are always doing. We're always talking about, I mean, especially the world's always talking about sexual relationships, raising of children, all of those types of things. But the Lord says, and Doctrine Covenant section 131, this order of my priesthood, if you will not receive this order of my priesthood, you cannot receive the power, right? And so I'm like, OK, he's talking, yes, sealing and priesthood, they're deeply intertwined. And this is something that the world doesn't want to hear. They don't want to hear that this is intertwined. Heck, the world for a long time had celibate priests assuming that being single was better than being married. But the Lord saying, no, no, no, you don't understand. My priesthood flows through a covenant relationship. The purpose of the endowment, the purchase of the ceilings, the purpose of celestial plural

38:28 marriage is to be in a covenant relationship with me. And that's how my priesthood, or the Lord is saying that is how the priesthood flows from heaven in that covenant relationship. Why did it matter that the people of Israel entered the covenant at Sinai? God could have blessed any individual with individual salvation, right? No, He made a covenant with the people. They would be sealed together with him in this eternal and everlasting covenant because it's the relationship that is the priesthood. This is this is one of my little pet peeves. People always think the priesthood is something you own. I own this book.

39:08 I have this coaster. I I have this thing. And they think that they can grasp the priesthood as though it were just an object, not understanding that the priesthood is the relationship it it. And that's why I like saying it's the hood part of priesthood. Sure, you might individually try to act as a priest. What makes you not a false priest though? Well, my relationship to God in acting in his name is only a true priesthood if I'm doing God's will, not mine will, or if I'm a priest of Molech or some other false God or something like that. A priest of Baal. What makes them a priest of Baal? Their relationship to that false God, the relationship with that false teaching.

39:52 So priesthood isn't something you get to own, it's about whether or not you are in that relationship. So. Can I ask a question about that that that thought right there? There is an interesting quote by Joseph Smith. I believe in the words of Joseph Smith where he's talking about Abraham and when Abraham was blessed by Melchizedek and he he walks away and and Joseph quotes him in as saying, quoting Abraham says now I have a priesthood of my own. Oh, sure, yeah. How would that fit in with that same that same kind?

40:32 Of idea, yeah. No, to me that's exactly relevant. See, because the problem is, is that Abraham, of course, yes, the language we're using sounds like ownership of a single noun. But what was Abraham's problem? Abraham sought it for the blessings of the fathers. Why? Because his own father was a wicked man, and Tarah had given up his priesthood, that he'd connected him to God, his common relationship with God, and he had his covenant with the idols. And so famously, Tarah was a high priest, an idol maker for these false gods. Abraham was like, oh, no, here I am. I wanted the blessing. When when he when he when he learned that his father's faith was in vain.

41:16 He wanted that faith that Melchizedek had that brought him into the presence of God, that made him have that relationship. He wanted that for himself. And so I think it's interesting, he says, I wanted the blessings of the fathers, which is the priesthood. What does that mean? He wanted the same relationship. And he felt like his own bloodline was broken. He didn't have a connection to God because again, this covenant of the sealing ordinances, it was bright. He had no priesthood of his own. But when he obtained the blessing from God, now he had a relationship. Now he had a priesthood of his own. In other words, he was like, now it's connected again, right? Now I can pass this birthright on as it went to Isaac and then to Jacob, right?

42:03 Because he's now anchored to the source authority and power. So that's what I think he's saying and that's why I think he puts it in terms of the fathers and the patriarchal order. Is that he he also, I believe, was Mormon in this way and and and saw that relationship. So I want to read Doctor govern section 131 starting in verse one through 4 because this is kind of that point. It says in the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees and in order to obtain the highest a man must enter into this order of the priesthood. And if he doesn't, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his Kingdom. He cannot have an increase. What an interesting thing. Well, what is this?

42:46 What is this order of the priesthood? The new and everlasting covenant of marriage is what it is. And I think it's interesting. He even tells us what's the blessing or the loss that you experience if you don't enter it. An increase. Well, what does an increase mean? Well, frankly, I think it means additional wives. If you do not accept plural marriage, you don't have to live it, but then you you can't have an increase. Part of the blessing of plural marriage is that you can have an infinite increase. It's not just about whether or not you have two wives. It's about the fact that you've opened the door to having an infinite number of wives.

43:27 Eternity is a long time. You can always have more wives, more children, more worlds without end. Right, right. So what we we've talked here a little bit about having to obey that law and and I want to get your opinion on something here. If you are a husband and wife who want these things, but the right woman just never comes along right and you never have that opportunity. You think that there's, there's, I don't want to say exceptions made for that, but maybe arrangements made for that, right. Yeah, and I I absolutely do think so. I again, the question is, is are you the kind of being who says this far I've gone, I will go no further, right. Or are you in the spiritual mindset that says, oh, it may be bitter as gall, it may be a very difficult sacrifice, but not my will but thine be done?

44:20 Right. Then that's the main thing, I think that matters. And so, yeah, I know that there's a lot of people who feel a little bit like a numbers game. Like, why is it that I've never found the right woman to the right women to live floral marriage with? Why haven't I? I, I made it over that. I mean, I'm monogamous essentially as far as the world's concerned, right? But my wife and I identify ourselves as polygamists because we are open. Right. To find more wives who wants to live the fullness of this law. And so I think that's the main thing. In fact, I even I tell the story sometimes we had a better good good guy. I think I'll just say his first name is his name was Sam. He was a good man, but he wasn't you didn't have all the gifts that you would one would expect, right? He and I think it was, I think it was some kind of mental retardation.

45:15 I think it's a bad word. Now what do they call it? Developmental delay. Anyways, he had these developmental delays and he was never really husband material, I guess you could say, but he hadn't. He had these great moments of insight and clarity too. I knew he was a good man. I knew he loved God and at first it was easy to be able to dismiss him because he was visibly and he's visibly mentally disabled. OK. But I remember like a month before his death, like he looked at me with his piercing look in his eyes and he was like, This is why we must obey the commandments. And he gave me this testimony. And I was like, whoa, not what I was expecting.

45:57 A person who normally doesn't speak in complete sentences. And he gave me this beautiful brief, somewhat brief, but like a full paragraph of like well thought out philosophical truth and about how he was committed, no matter what it took to fulfill all of the Lord's commandments because the blessings are worth it, right? He died about a month later and he never married. But in our church we have a temple and we sealed him posthumously to three women who also never married in life. And they were, you know, different relatives from some of our families when we did our family group sheets. And some of these people never married. And there was, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people that it could have been.

46:44 And it was prayed about. And the prophet said, I feel that these women would want to marry him. And he gave a revelation that said not only could he be sealed to these three women, I bet he would obtain, he would obtain the fullness of all things and all priesthoods and all power because he magnified all that he was given. So again, I think it's tricky because sometimes we want to say this is the Protestant work ethic probably speaking to us through Mormonism. It's a false doctrine in a lot of ways that we prosper according to our genius. You know, we want to take credit for our own successes or say, oh, well, those people didn't have success. And their judgements are just they, they, they probably didn't deserve better. That's not the way the Lord works. The Lord, I think, gives us so much mercy, so much time. The real question is, is what if you don't enter this priest order of the priesthood?

47:41 Well, I think what that is, is if you reject it when it's offered to you, that's when you're damned. Yeah. Right. It's it's what. It's what the Lord says right after in section 132. Those who receive this law must obey the same or they'll be damned. Yep. Well, again, not everyone's ready to receive plural marriage. Everyone's ready to receive 132. So to some extent, even though it's published in the earliest scriptures, it is hidden to most people. But if it's revealed to you, in other words, if there's the opportunity rises in your life and this is what the Lord has called you to do, and you reject the author of your being, you reject that blessing. You have the free will to reject that blessing.

48:22 But understand, when you reject that blessing, you can obtain it in no other way. You're not going to, you're not going to be blessed for rejecting it. And so John Taylor 5, in their third version or the second of the two hidden revelations, was rejected because this is a hard truth, right? That that if they don't live it, they can't just pretend they can't just set aside this thing because it's hard and expect to receive the same blessing. They won't have the same priesthood power because priesthood flows into our lives through the covenant. And the covenant isn't just about the marriages, and it isn't just about being sealed to your kids so the families can be together forever. And it isn't just about whether or not someone ordained you. The priesthood is about your covenant relationship with God, The patriarchal order as Abraham sought the blessings of the fathers.

49:16 It is all of it. This is why I believe in priesthood ceilings of adoption, the the patriarchal blessings which seal you into a tribe of Israel, the the second endowments which seal you up unto eternal life, the and and even the marriages, even the plural marriages. All of these things are relational about how we are becoming like God and God is acting through us. Not everybody's ready for plural marriage. Not everyone's ready for marriage. Like my friend Sam, he wasn't really ready for marriage. But part of the part of the little revelation when they said we could steal him to these women and that he would obtain all things was a promise that the things that had held him back in this life were the crosses that he chose to bear so that he could learn to overcome all things, right?

50:07 And that. And that, having now overcome, his mind will be freed from those limitations, and he will therefore be able to pass line upon line into all truth and the thing that's available to all of us unless we choose to stop. And that's why it says you'll be damned right if you reject this law. Again, the Lord's not saying this in the Protestant way. He's not saying I will push you down into eternal Hellfire. That's all it says. It just says either receive the fullness thereof, must have, shall abide the law, or He shall be damned. What He's saying is, is you're either going to move forward or you're going to stop, and it's up to you.

50:48 Do you want to move forward or do you want to stop and, and, and I think, but again, some of us will then think, well then I should run faster than I have strength. I should rush into everything. Also not true. Jesus made it clear it's not meat. In other words, it's not wise for you to run faster than you have strength. I receive here a little and there a little line upon line, precept from precept. I do not encourage your viewers to rush into a plural marriages just because plural marriages is your principal. It could be a terrible idea, A terrible idea for everyone involved. Yeah, yeah, I know. And, and the reason I asked that question is I get guys will sometimes read this or families will read this and go, uh oh, we're deficient, right? Oh, we're deficient.

51:36 We better rush. And do this, we better rush, we better go right. And you don't know how many emails I've got where I've had to be like, bro, breathe, we're OK, right? Like the, it is way more important right now for you to get right with this principle here in your heart and up here in your mind. And so if the opportunity comes along, if the Lord so chooses to bless you with that, you can take advantage of that, just like your story with, with your friend Sam. There's another gentleman out here who, who's, who has a family member. And, and he shared with me the, the, the family journal that this came out of very similar. This was a guy who even knew Joseph Muster a little bit and he was, he was like broken up about this because he was in a wheelchair like, and, and basically the, you know, the Lord tells him it's OK, right? It's not a lack of heart you are suffering from. And because of that, all these things will be made right. I know your heart, I know your desires, and I know that if if this was an option for you, you would do it. Paraphrasing, of course.

52:45 Right. I mean, and that's, that's sort of like the the problem with like Alvin, right, right. Joseph Smith was surprised to see envision that Alvin was going to receive all things. And the Lord says, Oh yeah, all those who would receive will receive. Yep. And what a comfort that could be because he's like, how could Alvin, who was never even baptized by authority, How could he reign forever before God's throne as a God to receive all blessings all? Yes, Alvin. Alvin received plural wives, even though in this life he didn't have the chance. Alvin will also receive eternal posterity. Alvin will also receive all these things even though he was cut down in his youth and never had the chance.

53:27 Why? Because Alvin was righteous, and as the one of the righteous dead, he is going to accept all things and the Lord is going to make it all right. Yep, 100% good stuff. So yeah, people rush into these things. But yes, to go back to the second of the four hidden revelations. Oh, and you mentioned, I don't even know if I mentioned this properly. The original pamphlet, of course, was published by Truth Magazine. Joseph Musser, who I accept as a true prophet of God. Yep. Is the one who coined the term the four hidden revelations and tried to bring these out Why? Because these are such important principles, right and So what was he doing with that first one?

54:08 He was showing us look, there was a blessing and the church rejected that blessing. But that doesn't mean that everyone is lost just as Wilford Woodruff didn't lose his exaltation when the church accepted the the manifesto. There are certain principles and if we obey them, then God will fight our battles. He he included this second revelation, this one from John Taylor, which is found in the as John Taylor five in the restored version. He he included that because he wanted us to understand you can't preside over the priesthood without being obedient to fullness of law. This was basically this makes this is the principle that shows why Joseph muster could preside over the keys of the priesthood while men like Harold B Lee or you know, some of these other men could not right, right.

54:56 Because Joseph Messer was asked by God to preside over all the key over these keys, because he was obedient to these laws. Yeah. He was willing to keep them all. Yeah, the next one, and this is probably the most important, we've already mentioned it, the third of the four hidden revelations, also called Addendum 7 in the addendum Doctrine Covenants, is the 1886 revelation. That's the one that the church finally accepted and it is found as John Taylor Section 11, no short version. I already said so important it's and now the header there was able to we're able to put in just before printing Church History Catalog MS34928 because you can look up the original handwritten revelation in the church history catalog by the church even though they had rejected it.

55:50 Every time you say that with a with a a number for the church catalog, I'm like, wait, say it slower. Say it with the say it's lower in itself sultry tone. Sorry I just had this like. Church history catalog MS34928 right? It just sounds so good. It just feels good, right? Someone was asking me like why? Why does it matter to people so much whether or not the church accept admits that it exists or not? And I was like, you know, at first it sort of does seem like a nothing burger because I know it's real and it there's thousands of it all over the place. We all know it's from John Taylor. But it also just feels like a relief because we've been gaslit for 100 years. Yes, that's what it was as it was. It was straight up gaslighting.

56:35 It was a That's not real. Yeah. And and it's and it was frustrating to have me like, look, there's so much documentary evidence. Are you kidding me? Are you really going to look me in the eye with a straight face and deny the evidence that's right in front of you? And I'm sorry with the church leaders for 100 years were like, absolutely, we are going to deny all the evidence of history that is right in front of our face and we're going to pretend that it does not exist and that you are a liar. And we're like, we're not lying. It's just what it is, you know? Yep, Yep. And so, yes, I'll tell you why the church finally admit yes, OK, yes, we've always had. A I'll I'll tell you.

57:16 I'll tell you why else this is a big deal. This is 1 e-mail I got and I know of at least four other stories that are fairly similar to this, but this is the one that sticks out to me. Ben, when this came out, I spiked the football for a week. If it was football, I'd be hit with a 15 yard penalty for excessive celebration. There's no doubt I. Said celebration. Let me tell you. Why though? Why? Because of the e-mail I get from from a couple of people. There's one lady that emails me and she's in the mainstream church. She is devout there, but she tells the story of her grandfather and she said my grandfather was the kindest, gentlest, most loving man I'd ever met.

58:05 He would take me fishing with him. He would take me for rides in his truck. I at the time, I was his only granddaughter. Well, what ends up happening is a stumble of cross fundamentalism. This man and his wife and this this woman's husband finds out about it. So it's I think it's her maternal grandfather. And so her dad finds out about it and says you are not talking to grandpa so and so anymore because he believes that you can have more than one wife. And he bases this off of a belief in a false revelation that does not exist.

58:55 So they cut off all contact. And it's only based on that lie. And it's only it's only, you know, four or five years before this man passes away, well before the church came out that yeah, we have it right. And it's legit when this woman is in her early 30s where she gets to reconnect with her grandfather and the heartbreak in that letter. And I don't sell this cheaply. I don't say this cheaply. The blood of that relationship is on the church's hands because let's just say they're legit, right?

59:38 I'm not saying everything turns out better, but there is a chance that that at least maybe that dad goes well, it was legit. We don't do it now, but it was legit. We got to give grandpa so and so. A break, at least a little grace that he's not a little. Grace, he's not a liar. He. Agrees with us. Right, right. And so that sort of crap right there when someone says why is this a big deal, it's because of that because they lied for so long and that lying did damage to families. And that has to be that. As a man who believes in justice, and I know God loves justice as much as he loves mercy. There will be a reckoning at whoever decided to bury that, whether that was Hebrew. They know he decided to bury because when they revealed right when they were jailed, if there's a letter, it was J. Ruben Clarke and everybody in between. Yeah, the.

1:00:33 Time it was authorized, that knew it was real and refused to acknowledge it. Shame on you. Yeah. About 10s of thousands of people who would otherwise have been part of society, part of the church, part of something who were. Look, there's, there's been, there's been well over 100,000 Mormon fundamentals. There's been well over 100,000 people living in plural families since the time of the 1886 revelation. There's been lots. How different would it have been if there wasn't this denial of the legitimacy of them as people, the denial of the legitimacy of their history? The, and I'm sorry, but that's, that's where that stems from. If you can gaslight me and say this or that thing in history never even happened, you're all liars. Then it becomes much easier to say, and you know what? You're not welcome in our culture. You're not welcome in our society. You're not welcome in our town.

1:01:28 This town isn't big enough for your family and mine. Get out. And then you've got, And then of course, our church isn't big enough for you and me to both be in the same church and all those things until you have people out in Short Creek all excommunicated trying to figure out what they're going to do. And, you know, Mormon fundamentalism has had plenty of its own schisms, right? And my line comes through the people who weren't in Short Creek, you know, But look at how much pain and suffering that's caused. And I'm sorry, but like, would, would, would wicked men like Warren Jeffs have really been able to rise to power in the way they did if they weren't so isolated, if they weren't so persecuted that they weren't so vulnerable to the abuses of people who were going to do their own will And so. Yeah.

1:02:19 The other thing that this release, and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to spend so much time talking about the, the periphery of this, but the the other thing that this shows is, is that you can delay the truth. You can run from it, you can hide from it, but at some point, the truth always has its day. No matter what you try to bury, no matter what you try to deny, the truth is the truth, and the truth will out. It will come out. The truth is John Wick. It has will and it is coming, and it's coming, most likely. And it's got plot armor and it's coming, yes. Yes exactly the truth only on this show where you're going to get the truth is like John Wick anyway this the The thing is is that it is the truth will always have its day.

1:03:12 You don't have a choice. And we look, I'm not saying that a split wouldn't have happened with the LDS Church, right? I think a split. Of course it would have. Still needed it kind of needed to happen. This is the this is the way I read some of wolf order statements about like, look, we had to act for the temporal salvation of the church. Temporal, not spiritual salvation of the church. Again, they're losing a blessing, but we had to make it so that people, the bottom half of the ladder was still climbable. Right. We, you know, we, we can't have all the bottom runs taken out of the ladder that leads to exaltation. So we had to act for the temporal salvation of the Church. Right. Yep, Yep.

1:03:52 But had they just come clean about it at the very beginning, maybe you can salvage some relationships. Maybe you can foster some really some some understanding from one end of the spectrum to the other. And this is one of the reasons why I'm so down on J Reuben Clark. And it was so fascinating to me to find out more about that reorganization of the Church. They when they, well, they created the corporation and all of that organization stuff that happened. The thing that's really shocking to me is, and then here's something about the 1886 revelation. The people who were in the priesthood in 1886, the people who were in priesthood leadership at least in 1886, and the people who were in priesthood leadership in the First Presidency corner of the 1270s.

1:04:37 All that all the general authorities in 1931 when J Reuben Clark comes in and joins the First Presidency and does all this and makes the Third manifesto. When all that happens, how much overlap do you think there was? Make a Venn diagram out of this in your brain. How many people were in both organizations that were both in priesthood leadership with John Taylor and increased leadership with J Reuben Clark? Do you know how many there are? I don't think off the top of my head one. Only one. David. J Grant, he's the only member of John Taylor's church who was also a member of J Reuben Clark's church, The only one. Now, of course you're going to find there were pioneer individuals not in positions of power, of course, that were were there when it comes to priesthood leadership.

1:05:25 It was a complete wipe. And this helps me understand a little bit about why how tenuous that I mean, people talk about how tenuous Mormon phenomenal claims are and some some of our claims aren't some tenuous, I'm sorry, I'll admit that. But look at how absolutely tenuous the LDS church's claim is to being the same church Joseph was founded. One link. It comes down to one single point of failure, which is Hebrew J Grant. And what does Hebrew J Grant do? He elevates a guy right out of the ironic priesthood who's totally inactive into the First Presidency and tells him persecute everyone who doesn't bow the knee to me. Yep, Yep. Yeah. It's important to note J Reuben Clark is so active he never even baptizes his own kids.

1:06:12 Right. He didn't even baptise his own children. Another thing to realize. Just be like, oh, he's a member of the First Presidency. Wasn't he prophecy in Revelator? Wasn't he an apostle? No, he wasn't even or he was ordained to the apostleship like way after. He wasn't ordained to the when he wrote the third Manifesto and they denied the existence of the 1886 revelation. He wasn't even a Melchizedek priesthood holder. He was a member of the First Presidency for these political aims, for these legal goals. He wasn't even an apostle or anything. And so once you realize this, I, I, I've realized just how tenuous their connection is to claim that they're the ones in charge. They have no legal claim that was wiped out by the Edmunds Tucker Act.

1:06:55 They had no. And So what they do, they created the corporation of the, of the first Presidency so that they could take possession of Temple Square because they didn't own it. OK. And then they made the third manifesto. Why? Because you've got you got a really good handful of priesthood leadership in the Mormon fundamentalist movement that was there with John Taylor, not just one guy, a whole quorum of people who remember and live the fullest of the gospel still. So to some extent I think it's interesting. People will say, oh, well, Lauren Woolley was a little weird, or John Taylor or, or John Woolley didn't write much down or Joseph Musser was a little crazy or something. And they'll try to downplay the priesthood leadership of Mormon fundamentalism, not realizing, I think, that the mainstream connection to the to the church was actually far more tenuous, but much more powerful and bolstered up by these legal arguments.

1:07:55 By criminalizing polygamy, by excommunicating everybody, including just women who were in plural marriages, by taking possession of Temple Square and taking possession of all of these properties through this new corporation that they created, all those things they were able to take over. But it was a hostile takeover. It was not. It wasn't a vote of the priesthood. It was a actual hostile takeover that a guy from DC, Jared and Clark, came in and said politically, we've got to clean this up. Legally, we've got to clean this up. So let's play hardball and let's pretend that none of this ever existed, deny all of it, excommunicate everybody, and then there won't be anybody left to oppose us. And you know the law will let us get away with it because the law doesn't want to hand any of this property back to those polygamists.

1:08:44 It's still too hot of an issue. The only way to make peace is for us to look like the good guys. We're the ones who are in with the world. We're the ones who are on good terms with the law and the government and Washington DC and all these people. So give us the keys to the temple. The temple give us the ownership of the church, give us the leadership. And don't worry, we will. We'll sort this out. We will get it right the way the the law wants, the way the government wants it. We will clean this up. And that's what they do. They issue the third manifesto in 1831 and then the clean house. They excommunicate everybody. Do they haven't already? And then you've got an actual body of priesthood holders in the Council of Friends.

1:09:26 You have an actual body of priesthood holders who was actually here through the whole thing versus one guy, Heber J Grant is the only one that we know was called of God who was there back in the 1880s, who's still there. And I'm sorry, but I don't want to hang my whole testimony of the priesthood in a church on one guy who committed a hostile takeover. It's not, it's not good enough for me. He also didn't perpetuate any of the things that he was. Called the perpetuate. No, no, he was. He was the man that they felt was. But like, he doesn't even once he's an adult until he's called to the apostleship. He doesn't even spend much time in Salt Lake. He's predominantly in DC, right? He's that's where.

1:10:08 He, well, he wasn't called to the apostleship like I like to clarify, right, He was called to the First Presidency and was not ordained to anything. He was simply installed. Right, right. And, and, but he spends most of his time in DC. He's kind of embarrassed, quite frankly, of his Mormon. Route. This is Mormon history, family history really, Not personal beliefs even. Right. Yep, absolutely. Let's go ahead and read this one because it's not very long this. One's not very long, and it is worth reading the whole thing. The 1886 Revelation, and it's filled with beautiful, beautiful eternal principles. OK. My son John, you have asked me concerning the new and everlasting covenant, how far it is binding upon my people. Thus saith the Lord, All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by My name, unless they are revoked by me or by my authority. And how can I revoke an everlasting covenant? For I, the Lord, am everlasting, and my everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with, but they stand forever.

1:11:14 Have I not given my word in great plainness on this subject? Yet have not great numbers of My people been negligent in the observance of My law and the keeping of My commandments? And yet I have borne with them these many years, and this because of their weakness, because of the perilous times. And furthermore, it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters. Nevertheless, I, the Lord, do not change, and My word and My law and My covenants do not. And as I have heretofore said by My servant Joseph, all those who would enter into My glory must and shall obey My law. And have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham's seed, and would enter into My glory, they must do the works of Abraham?

1:12:02 I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting. And those who will enter into My glory must obey the conditions thereof. Even so. Amen. OK, first thing I want to dive into one of the things we hear is that the in verse one where he says, you have asked me concerning the new and everlasting covenant and how far it is binding upon my people. I'm not making any, not breaking any news when I say we live in a postmodern society, right? And postmodernism it it has a funny way of changing words, right? And and and we see this even creep into to to Mormonism, right? If you ask a a latter day St.

1:12:47 Now what is the new and everlasting covenant? They will say, Oh well, that's that's all the stuff that was brought forward through the restoration. It's the fullness of the covenant, of all the covenants, of anything God has commanded us to do, all of it. Right. However, at this time in history, that means something different, right? That term at this time in in history means one thing and one thing alone, and that is celestial plural marriage. And I think the thing that's tricky to to understand is even if we had that postmodern idea that, oh, it's everything that God's revealed, well, didn't God reveal celestial black marriage? Yes. It's still part of it, even by the postmodernist approach. I'm sorry.

1:13:30 Right. Yeah, No, it is. And so, but that's one of the places I've seen where they try to have some wiggle room, right is right. Look. To be honest, they're just flat dishonest with the history because if you spend any time reading these documents at all, it becomes very apparent. And I'm sorry the government was not hunting John Taylor because he was sealed to one wife or because they were practicing consecration. Or they were. Because that well, maybe a little bit of the consecration, but they were definitely hunt, but they definitely didn't ever said that they were hunting them down for bleeding in baptism. They never said that they were hunting them down for believing in the laying on hands. Right. They didn't say that they were hunting them down because they had the Bible. That was not the that was not the claim they were hunting them down because of plural marriage.

1:14:18 That was the stated reason. So what why else would he be asking? This is the context in verse one. You have asked me concerning the newer lost and how far is binding up on my people. Was was John Taylor saying do we really have to get baptized? I mean, really, do we really need all these scriptures? That's not what he was asking. He. Was asking about the reason why he's in hiding, why he's running for. Life, right? Exactly. And and I think that is so important to get across here because I have seen people where they have tried to use this as a mechanism of being like, no, that's not what they were after him about. They just didn't like temples. And I'm like, no, that's not what they're doing here, right? Celestial foreign marriage is one of the reasons for temples. I mean, you know.

1:15:02 Right, exactly. There's that, right? Nonetheless, I felt like that was important to broach there, that that there's only one thing he's talking about here and that's it. Yeah, that's really what he's talking about. And yet, of course I do love that it is it. These are general principles, though they are broadly applicant. What is it that the Lord can revoke and and the Lord cannot revoke? What is it that the Lord changes and doesn't change? To me? This is one of the reasons why I love this, this revelation so much because it gives me faith that I can trust God and His word for His Word and his law and His covenants do not change. And the Lord himself does not change. He's trustworthy, He's dependable. He's not going to just, you know, carpet pull us the last minute because he changed his mind about something.

1:15:50 Right. Right, here's the other thing then, if the Lord is not consistent on that, right? If the Lord says Nope, good enough for your ancestors, they needed it, but you don't, what was that turn God into? That turns him into a respecter of persons, right? No longer does everyone have to be saved and exalted on the same principles. Now you've turned the Lord into something he has said many times, Himself He is not, which is a respecter of persons. Right, because God's going to be like, Oh yeah, I'll give you the same blessing if you get to live it comfortably and as so I'm not going to require the same sacrifice. It'll be easier for you. Well, what does that sound? That's a lie.

1:16:32 That's a lot. That's the comforting lie that we tell ourselves. I don't have to work harder. I don't have to make the sacrifice. I don't have to do a bigger thing. I don't have to do it. It's so much easier for me than it was for them because God will give me the blessing without the without the second. Absolutely. And that's yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And and it also again, like you're an attorney, you'll I think you'll like this. One of the things I really like about the legal system in America, or at least how it was supposed to operate, was starry decisis, right? That that you're going to look back at case law and make determinations as an attorney based off of that.

1:17:15 Well, what does that do? That provides for stability and predictability, right? And, and, and predictability and stability is huge. If we know that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and he has asked me to do these things well, can I look back and see where God asked somebody to perform something similar? What was the outcome? OK, then knowing that God is no respecter of persons. He is consistent. He is the same today, yesterday and forever. That means that at some level he will be pleased with that action. Now, is it always going to turn out Rosie, like you imagine somebody else? No. Sometimes life just stinks. But nonetheless, we know what he expects. And if we know what he expects, then we can do our part to receive as many of the blessings as we can. But.

1:18:02 We have to make that sacrifice and whether like the people, like the righteous family of Amulet who were thrown into the fire in Amaniah and they were burned up. Yeah. But the Lord said, I receive them unto myself. They will receive blessing or light. Or if we get to be like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who when they were thrown to the fiery furnace, they were spared. Either way, the sacrifice is the same and the blessing is the same. Those who were willing to walk into the fiery furnace receive a great blessing and those who are not willing cannot receive that blessing. And the blessing is that of eternal life. And so you have to, you have to give it all. So, so anyways, this one's the one that's most understand understandable as to why it is hidden. So when we ask ourselves, why was this hidden? Well, because this directly challenges the authority of the LDS Church to exist.

1:19:00 It directly challenges their claim to authority. It directly challenges the legitimacy of the organization that they created under Jerry and Clark. It directly challenges all of that. Jerry and Clark was smart enough to see that and that's why he wrote that memo that you can see in the church history, the catalog now where he explicitly states we need to lie about this or everyone will see that we don't have have the authority essentially. Now that's me paraphrasing, but he was like, this will cause so much trouble. Why would it cause so much trouble? Because it would reveal that their church is not the same church and that I do not have the same priesthood and that they are in rebellion against God. So they, they, they couldn't have that be openly discussed.

1:19:43 And So what do we need to accept? I think we need to accept that God isn't changing, that the truth, as hard as it is, you have to learn to accept it because the truth doesn't change. Now let's do the last one. Before before we go there, Ben, can I point out one other verse in in this 1886 when I find interesting? And that's first verse 8 in the Canada in the in the RSV and it says, and furthermore, it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters. I think God wants us to want the things that he wants, right? It's not enough to have like this reluctant obedience of like, I guess I'll do it if I have to, but I don't want to write.

1:20:30 It's like, I don't know if anybody has kids, right? It's like dragging them along, like, don't make me go have fun. You know? You're like, oh, come on, can you want what I want? Can't we all? Right, right. And look, I want to say this. Sometimes that's the best we can do, right? Look, you and I have hung out for for for space-time here. So I know you're pretty well and I know that you're like me from time to time. You think I don't want to do this on Sunday, right? I just want to lay here and lay in bed and think. And sometimes it's, it is like, no, I guess I'll go do it. And that's fine for a space of time, right? Well, right, because we are all, you know, you can't run faster than you have strength, right?

1:21:15 Sometimes you just don't have strength. And you're like, no, I, I, I, I'm not. I can't do it. Right, right. And sometimes this thing of fine, I'll do it is good enough. But you shouldn't stay in that space, right? At some point you want that will that you have to match the will our father has so that we can look at things the same way, right? What what was what was the thing about David that the Lord loved the most? He was a man after my own heart, the Lord says. Right. He saw things the way God saw them. He believed the way God believed. Yes, and so we all have those times. I don't want you to think that it's an all or nothing proposition. We all have those times where we're like, fine, I'll go to church, right. Even as adults.

1:21:59 Fine, I'll get up, I'll get the kids dressed, we'll go to church. So be it. But you shouldn't stay in that space. At some point, you should work ahead. Anyway, I just wanted to throw that one out there. Ben, I didn't mean to derail your thoughts. Here, No, actually here this here's another fun point about that verse eight. That is the only place where the word free agency appears. Yeah. And we've talked to people talk about free agency in Mormon context, or at least they used to all the time is an interesting point. Where did they learn the term it was from this. They may have denied that this revelation existed for 100 years, but the vernacular was still being used in everyday mainstream Mormon context all the time. And that's where they got it from. Yeah.

1:22:43 Yeah, yeah, it's funny how those things seem to make a mark, huh? You right, like, like for example, we talk about exaltation all the time, but a lot of people want to decanonize section 132 because they don't want plural marriage. And I'm like, do you realize that in all of Scripture, the only place that talks about the exaltation of the individual to a state like God or to be A to to fully receive all that God has or any of that, you know that there's only one place in all of scripture that talks about personal exaltation. It's section 132. Yep, Yep. And, and here's the interesting thing, right? And this is what I see a lot that happens in in various religious movements, just not Mormonism.

1:23:24 People will make a change and then have to contend with the unintended consequences, right. And you get rid of 132. You're not just getting rid of plural marriage, you're getting rid of ceilings for time and eternity. You are getting rid of those promises right that that death and hell cannot touch those if they're made under the proper authority in the at the proper time, in the proper place. You are getting rid of exaltation like just go down the. Lift and it goes and it goes. And then The thing is it's a domino effect. It cascades all the way down to the bottom. And This is why it says, what about the new and everlasting covenant, right? Because it's all connected.

1:24:07 You, you let the one domino fall of rejecting that plural marriage is a true principle. At least. I mean, I understand not everybody's living it, but like if you reject God's power to take Mary as his wife, for example, then you reject Jesus coming at all. Yeah. This is something a Catholic priest said, some along the lines of if you, if you reject Mary, said this Catholic guy, then you reject the fountain from whence your redemption sprang, for which because she was the mother of God. And if, if, if Mary's not important, if Mary didn't receive the blessing, if Mary wasn't accepted by the Father, there's no Son.

1:24:50 Right. Right. Like and and and it's the same thing with all of this. You reject plural marriage, then you lose exultation and everything all the way down to the entire Nova W covenant. Because like I was saying about priesthood, it's about the relationship. All of a sudden now you have this idea that we can take this honor unto ourselves and presume to have a priesthood that isn't based upon our relationship to God, but is based instead upon our ecclesiastical bona fides or something. How much does that sound like what we condemn in the great Apostasy that somebody can say, oh, because of my great knowledge of the Bible, I now have authority, right? Mormonism rejects that. It's about the covenant relationship, right?

1:25:31 If, if it was all about that kind of authority, then God would never have chosen a boy like Joseph Smith. Right. And so Mormonism, all of it, and the priesthood and everything we claim depends upon not letting the all these dominoes start falling. Absolutely. And yeah, plural marriage is the, the promise of infinite increase, a family that never stops growing. There's always more wives, there's always more children, there's always more growth. And if you'll say, well, Gee, that makes the men sound like they're left out or two grand ice, you know, depend on how you look at it, the Misandrus way or the, OR the, uh, you know, the feminist way of looking at, at the man's role.

1:26:15 Don't forget men also, in my view of this, they still have to do the same thing Jesus thought to be submissive to his father. And so there's also the patriarchal order there, which is the patriarchal ceilings and the tribes of Israel and the orders of the priesthood and the quorums and the quorum presidencies and all of those other hierarchies. Men also men on men relationships, men with women relationships, men and women with children relationships, and all of those things increase infinitely. Not one of them ever gets to stop, unless you want it to stop. And if you want it to stop, you give up the blessing there unto opportunity, which is an eternal increase. Therefore, as it says, Section 132, therefore you are damned, for you cannot have an increase.

1:27:01 So I hope to have an abundance of brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, wives, children, every single one of these in every geometric direction you can imagine. Counting your numbers is an Infinity of infinities. All of them grow forever. Or if you cut them off then you don't have that increase. Absolutely, 100% good stuff. OK, last one of the four hidden revelations is in the Addendum of the Doctor Covenants 8 or in the old pamphlet The Four Hidden revelations #4 but it is found as Wilfred Woodruff, Revelation 5 in the restored version triple.

1:27:48 So Wilfred Order 5. Now, you guys, you're going to figure out really fast why this one was hidden, why this one was rejected. It says, once again, they're being asked to sign another manifesto, just like what prompted the 1886 revolution. OK. And so in November of 1889, while meeting with lawyers making these concessions, he receives this revelation. Thus saith the Lord to my servant Wilford. I, the Lord have heard their prayers and their request, and will answer thee by the voice of my spirit. Thus saith the Lord unto my servants, President of my church, all the keys of the Kingdom of God on this earth.

1:28:28 I the Lord, hold the destiny of the courts in your midst, and the destiny of this nation and all nations in Mine own hands. And all that I've revealed and promised and decreed. Concern of the generation which you live shall come to pass, and no power shall stay my hand. So first thing he's telling him is OK, you have to understand I'm still in control. Yes, things are bad. The fiery furnace is over there waiting for you to burn you up and destroy the temples and all these bad things. But please have faith. I still, I, I'm the Lord, I, I, I'm not powerless here. I hold the destiny of all nations in my hand, right? So that should be comforting. But then here's where we get into trouble. Let not my servants, who are called the presence of My Church, deny My word or My law, which concerns the salvation of the children.

1:29:17 In other words, sorry, still can't deny My law, the unchangeable law. Right. Let them pray for the Holy Spirit which will be given to them to guide them in their acts and place not yourselves in jeopardy to your enemies by promise. In other words, sorry, but you cannot issue a manifesto, any manifesto that would actually abandoned my law. Right. And so Wilford, what if it doesn't for himself, but the people? I mean, maybe we should turn to the actual manifesto. The actual manifesto doesn't say we're compromising the law of God. It doesn't say that we're actually going to be obedient to it.

1:30:00 It just says that we're going to advise the church to avoid breaking the law of the of the law of the government, right? That's what it says. Then we'll give them this advice. And I think there was this idea that maybe this would this wouldn't be an actual covenant with death and hell. This would just be us trying to be the devil of his own game. Let's just try to let's just try to turn down the temperature here. How many people are in prison? We need some excuse to get some kind of amnesty, some way to live. And by this time, the oldest people had grown so large and it done so much work, they really weren't in a great position to be thrust into another frontier of new country or conquer some new foreign land. I don't know how well it would have gone over if they'd tried to conquer northern Mexico or if they'd gone to New Zealand or right.

1:30:59 Like, it's really hard to know what the else they could have done. And so, but here's the danger. And This is why it's like I said, it's pretty obvious why this one's not included. He says place not yourselves in jeopardy your enemies by promise. You cannot make any promises. And unfortunately the manifesto kind of grows bigger beyond its britches of what it originally was in 1890, you know like 6 months after this, and eventually turns into a full on covenant with death and hell in my opinion, and a full on promise to our enemies that we will abandoned our faith. Right. Right now it look, I did those episodes with Michael Ness on post manifesto polygamy and I, I want to say this.

1:31:47 You're you're right. I I'm like you. I don't hold a lot of contempt for John Taylor and I've often said Wilford Woodruff. Would I say John Taylor? Sorry, I meant I meant Wilford Woodruff. I was going to say though there there is like I'm one day I'll write a book about the five stages of becoming a fundamentalist. And one of those stages is, yeah, one of those stages is he will develop a white hot seething hate for Wilford Woodruff. And then you'll start getting more nuanced with your history and start looking at it. And that'll go away. And then you'll discover Heber J Grant and Ruben J Clark. And now start all over again. For all over again. Right, right. But nonetheless, I'm, I'm pretty sympathetic towards Wilford, right?

1:32:31 Because you can tell that he's got no inclination to really stop the practice, right? What's the fact he actually takes a plural life right manifesto himself? Right. And so he's got no plans on doing this but, and this is the but, but in some ways he should have known better than to do this, right? I get it. I get it. But the same time this is what happens, and let's be honest, right, You start capitulating a little bit, it's easier to do it the second time. I had a football coach who once said a great thing, which was winning is absolutely a habit, but so is losing. And momentum can work against you just as well as it can work with you.

1:33:23 And some sometimes you find yourself there because you, you made one bad decision. And that would be my, my, my gentle critique of Wilford here is that I know this isn't what you intended, but this is what this is the unintended consequence of what? Of of even signing that a little bit. Right. Of even of even subscribing to it, even just for expediency or acting for the temporal salvation of the church as he put it, there's still these terrible consequences. And I think I think he, he definitely fell, I mean, from his own comments, I think he fell prey to something that I really fear in Mormon feminism right now, which is we have this idea and it's a very dangerous idea.

1:34:04 I think it's a very positive idea that the Lord is going to come and just sort it all out. And a lot of people feel like, well, yeah, I know it's not ideal, but the Lord will come soon and sort it all out. And we forget that that might mean him wiping us out for our wickedness and disobedience. OK, It's a great and terrible day of the Lord. It's supposed to be terrible in judgment upon the wicked. And we seem to think that we'll be counted among the righteous. What makes you so sure? Why are we so self-righteous? Let's assume we're among the righteous. And I think that one of the things that Wilford were to fell into was this idea that like, look, we just have to stall them. They've sent how many judges, how many guns, how many people have died?

1:34:51 How many people have been incarcerated? How many terrible, terrible things have happened? There was a rape in Parowan. There was, I mean, this wasn't easygoing. This was this was existential, OK? This was existential. The Saints were facing absolute being wiped out by the world. But the problem is they were fearing Goliath when they feared God. If they were men after the Lord's own heart like David, they would say, who is this uncircumcised Philistine to defy the God of Israel? You know what I mean? If, if, if all the Saints that had the courage of David, we would have been like, who are these unelected judges to presume to sit in judgement upon God? And we would have we would have had and then the Lord could have fought our battles.

1:35:34 Then we would have had his assurances and the Lord is trying to encourage him and all the people don't give in to this. You can fight back. You can you can fight back. And yet they felt like they couldn't. They felt like this compromise would work. And I know that the some people with their their stages of grief in coming to Mormon fundamentalism that are angry. It will for if I've even had some people say I bet if he hadn't allowed that Dang manifesto to go out, I bet that the Lord would himself would have come and fixed this. Right.

1:36:21 Maybe. Or, or maybe it just sucks for a while and then it blows over, right? I, I don't know. I don't know how the Lord planned on fixing it. I don't think it's. Such an apostate idea, I think, for us to wait for God to fix it for us when He's already commanded us to do it and we're being slothful servants. This is exactly why I think like it says in the first of the foreign revelations we talked about, which is the Wilfred Woodruff #4 Is it in the restored version? Is that he says, yeah, well for is that the Lord warns them, the judgments begin upon my house. Yeah. He's going to clean his own house first before he cleans anything else.

1:37:05 And the problem is, is that we are prone to say, oh, well, God will sort it out later. And I'm like, well, what about your kids? What about your grandkids? If you don't have the ordinances, if you don't go to the temple, if you don't have the fullest of the gospel. I mean, this is my critique and why I couldn't join with Centennial Park or the FLDS or a lot of these, a lot of Mormon feminist groups was I was saying to them like, but most of you don't even have your endowments. Most of you don't have all these things. What makes you think that you're more righteous just because you have plural marriage? There's a lot to it. It's complicated and, and the most common answer I got from them and from everyone else and for a lot of mainstreamers, when I'm like, no, we have to go live these things as they'll say, no, no, no, I know that Pluto marriage is a true principle, but the Lord will come soon and he'll sort it all out. I'm like, don't forget the way he might sort it out is to burn you with the wicked because you were sitting in the midst of his house with these commandments before you. And you're the one who says I want these hidden revelations to remain hidden to my sight.

1:38:10 I can't accept this. I won't believe truth is the truth, and sooner or later God's going to have to have a people who fulfill His law. If we're going to have Zion, we have to be living consecration, and consecration is yet another one of these ways in which we build relationship. A consecrated community is a plural marriage community. It's all one thing. It's all one package, the celestial law. And so and so I want to be the type of people that God says, oh, look, you already live Zion just like we live Zion now. We can all come together in the second coming. That's what I think the second coming looks like. And the people who aren't down for that, they're the ones who have to get removed so they will stop harassing those who are trying to live the gospel.

1:39:08 Yeah, you know, it, You said something that was interesting, which is we'll just wait for the Lord to come back and sort it out. Well, he kind of already sorted it out, right? We, we have a whole bunch of instructions on how he sorted it out, right? That it's called the Restoration and, and, and it's all there, right, Right. I'll just tell you what, what I've seen at times. And this, this runs the gamut of Mormonism, from the LDS Church to fundamentalism. And it's that so often we are so scared to offend God because, oh gosh, we don't want to do it wrong. I mean, we'd hate to do it wrong, right?

1:39:50 We don't try. At all. Yeah. Yeah. So you just don't try at all, right? And I'm like, there's not a more apt description of the servant in the talents that messed it up, right? Well, here's your one talent back, right? I didn't do anything with it, but I preserved it. But I didn't lose it. But I didn't lose it. I, I, you know, it's right here. That's, that's not enough, right? Right. Don't try something even like, OK, in, in, in, in my work life, I have, I've had guys because look, it's big money. I get it, right? You know, 300,000 cubic yards of concrete. You kind of want to make sure that's in the right place. You got to be right, right?

1:40:35 However, at some point someone's got to make a decision on where it goes, right. And so I've had guys come back to me at times where they're like, Dave, I, I didn't get that done today. Well, what happened? I just didn't want to make a mistake. And I've told them all this. I review all of your data every night to look for mistakes. I would rather you make a mistake then you do nothing at all, because if you're doing something that gives me a point to start from to say it's OK, you know what? This isn't quite right. Here's. Where we messed up? Here's where we can do better. Right, we can, we can make a plan to fix it. And I can see how you're working and thinking through a problem. And I think the Lord is that way with his people, right? Just do something, right.

1:41:24 If you do something and it's not quite right, look, it's it. I'm a guy who also has a testimony that I think most of the time when the Lord, quote, smites us, he really doesn't smite us. He just gets out of the way. So we get the repercussions of our own bad decisions right. He doesn't shield us from those. I think so often when we're trying to do the right thing, when this is in the right place, your heart and you're trying to do the right thing. If you mess up, I find I find our father to be very gracious and like, not quite right, but here's how you can fix it and you better the next time. We don't have to fear him. We must respect him. We must, we must have a healthy respect for him. But.

1:42:11 But he wants to talk and he wants us. Don't think of him as the boogeyman who's just waiting to drop the hammer at the first time you screw up. It's been my experience in my life that when my heart's right and I screw up, it's a gentler rebuke. And it's usually like, OK, kiddo, yeah, OK, kiddo, let's try this again. Right. And and so to your point there, that that we'll just wait for the Lord to sort it out. No, He's given us enough that we can sort this out. In fact, what it starts, what it starts to look like is I know the Lord's told me what to do, but I don't want to do it. And so I'm not going to do it until He comes and makes is what it starts looking like.

1:42:52 And that starts looking, well, that sounds like open defiance. And that's, and I think that's the dangers that that's kind of the way I do see it with the mainstream LDS church. They'll say things like, I know that these revelations were given, but we don't have to live those laws today. We can't live those laws today. And so it'll be made better in heaven. It'll be made better in the next World. It'll made better when Jesus comes. And I'm like, do you realize what you're basically saying is, is you're you're daring God to kill you. You're like, I won't do it unless you kill me and make me do it. I'll do it in the next World. I'll do it when you come back. Sorry. Yeah. These are the principles of eternal life.

1:43:33 Either you love them or you hate them. And if you hate them that much, well, it's not going to make you do them. But you're not going to get the blessing. Yep. Yep. No, it's, it's true. But yeah, I, I think, I think when we can stop operating out of a fear and scarcity mentality, yeah, we'll, we'll absolutely thrive. But we got to put the fear away first. And just put the fear away and recognize that even truths that you're not ready for, that's OK. So long as you're always making yourself ready to move line upon line, precept closer and closer, eventually you're going to be like, I really need something and it'll work out. This reminds me of something I want to say.

1:44:13 It was Richard's. Oh, shoot, I'll have to look it up. But anyways, there's a place where he says about the Adam God doctrine. He says, you might say, this doesn't make any sense to me. This doesn't fit in the building of my faith. He said, well, then lay aside that stone for now. But if you build your faith, you the time will come when you will find there is no other piece that will fit or will do. And then if you've laid it aside gently, instead of sort of chastising yourself for not being further advanced, or instead of rejecting it and throwing it away, just having it handy, saying I don't get this, but it's handy, then there will come a time in your progress where nothing else will do and it will come into its place. It's the same thing with things like plural marriage. Not everyone's ready for marriage, let alone plural marriage.

1:45:01 Not everyone's ready to consecrate. I get that. Not everyone's ready to have these hidden revelations revealed in their own heart, in their own mind, but knowing that they're there, If you're humbling yourself for the Lord and you're progressing, I think there will come a time when you will look at that and say that's exactly what I need. This answers the needs of my soul, and then it will all come together. Now, of course, you know, if you're rejecting it, you're just rejecting the author of your being. You're rejecting the principles of life. Yeah, you're going to find yourself having a very tough road to follow because then you're all your sacrifices will be in vain. It won't bring blessings because we're all going to sacrifice one way or another.

1:45:45 Whether or not we give our wear out our lives and give our lives for God, whether we wear out and give our lives for our own vanity, we're all going to wear out and give our lives. It comes to all of us. The question is, is is there sacrifice in vain or not? Is it placed in true principles? Principles that are always true no matter what? Right. Or who are false gods of our own vanity, or our ambition, or some other thing? Yep, 100%. You know, you used a very eloquent parable of building a house. I've always said it's like the toothpick in the Swiss Army knife. Right, you're you think this is useless until you need it. Until you need it, and it may not be for a toothpick, you may need a needle to sew up your, you know, cut arm with right and you're going to really wish you had it. So rather than just throw things out, just lay. There's nothing wrong with laying it down going. I don't know what to do with that right now, but it kind of like came with the kit.

1:46:45 So I better like hold on to it, right? Or like you know, the I don't reject. It don't throw it away. You don't have to use it right now. Right, right. Like the the piece of IKEA furniture that you have to put together and you're like, why do I need that many washers? I don't do not understand. Just lay it, sit, leave it in the bowl, keep building the piece of furniture. You'll find out. And you'll. Need it. But if you just throw it out and then you build it without it, it's going to stink when that desk comes toppling down with the expensive computers on it. And it's the same thing with the gospel. Just 'cause you don't understand it right now doesn't mean you won't understand it later. And just 'cause you don't want it right now doesn't mean you won't want it later.

1:47:29 Well, in many cases, the reason why it doesn't fit too is because we are hiding from the truth. We have a lie, maybe lies, a strong word. We have a belief or a tradition that we think is important. We think it's probably true. It's part of the way we do the world. And it doesn't fit with this other piece. These things don't play nice together. It's oil and water. What do I do? I don't want to give up the tradition that I think is a true tradition, a good tradition, the right thing. And you're telling me there's this other thing and don't fit the danger there, of course, is, is that we we can't just give up all of our traditions at once. We again, it's line up online personal members.

1:48:10 We have to learn these things. I think about like the polygamy deniers. They've been driving me crazy because they're trying to change history. And but why are they trying to change history? Because it's partly it's sometimes because they're trying to defend something that they believe is true. They'll be like, I love my wife and I hate, I hate the idea of betrayal. I hate the idea of lies. I hate the idea of hurting those I love. And I think the polygamy would do all those things. Therefore, I reject polygamy because I love my wife. Well, the the dangerous thing here is, is that so much of our life is like that where God's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not telling you to reject love in order to accept.

1:48:51 I want you to, I want you to love and have mercy. And all of those are good, true principles. But these good two principles apparently seem to contradict something else that someone's telling me is a true principle. It's like, whoa, whoa, wait until it comes into its proper place. Well, in many cases, that comes into our lives as polygamous only when the right person at the right time is sent by God by revelation. And then we know, oh, rejecting plural marriage in that instance, like when you took a plural wife, you would you have this, you have this place where you come to where it's like, this isn't about rejecting my first, my other wife.

1:49:31 This is about now it's her turn. Am I going to throw her out in the cold? Am I going to reject her? Am I going to say you're unworthy? You don't count, your needs don't matter anymore because I already had no. And then you start realizing, wait a second. The principle of love is the principle of plural marriage. You just people. And so people will say, well, I'm going to reject our marriage because I think it conflicts with love. Oh boy. They just don't understand why? Because it's not the right time yet. It's not the right place yet. How would they feel if they were approaching God and God was like, sorry, heaven's full, no vacancy, get out of here, right? That would be terrible. It's the same thing in our families, the same thing in all these principles. It has to be the right time.

1:50:14 It has to be the right place. It has to fit in the right place. This is why I don't recommend people rush into plural marriage. Too often people think I'm excited about this new thing I read about, You're excited about this new thing I read about. Let's all just go do it and you don't realize might not be what God wanted and then it all goes to hell. Yes, yes, yes, you know, absolutely. And and you know, that's what I've told people that have started to flirt with fundamentalism a lot. It's like, look, you're going to hear some stuff and then you're going to see some stuff, but just know your walk is your own. Yeah. And anybody who doesn't have your back during your walk, right?

1:50:59 Your friends who can honestly see you're working through things, right? If they don't have your back, that's a pretty good indication that they don't really care for you that much, right? And, and so take it slow, right? Learn things, listen, watch, and the Lord will let you know when you're ready, when you're ready. You don't have to worry about anything else. Work with it. But again, maybe you'll never. Maybe you're never. You're never as ready as you think you are. He's not passed away. I can say his name, but there's a guy named Bill Olson. Who, Yeah, who, who was like, I read all the stuff. I read all the general discourses. I read all these uncanned as revelations. I man, I was like, I am so ready for this. And when it was when he was first entering plural marriage and taking his first plural wife, right? He was already married, but he was taking a plural wife. He was like, I know what I'm doing. I'm I'm so grateful that I know what I'm doing. And he's like, I knew nothing.

1:51:57 I knew nothing. Nope, Nope. That is so true. Look, look, we can. Only learn this by doing this. Yes, look, whether you're getting married for your first time or your fifth time, I promise you it'll be you're not really ready, right? Because it's always going to be a little bit different because the people involved are a little bit different and and you're going to have to figure it out. That's a good thing. That is, that is something else principle. Yeah. And and that's something I've told people. It's like sometimes you just got to learn how to embrace the second. Enjoy the journey, even even when it's tough, right? Because that's where the growth is happening. Enjoy the process of getting there as well.

1:52:41 And so, yeah, the dangerous thing, you know, the dangerous thing is, is if you read the Book of Mormon and you think this is of God and you read the doctor comments, you think this is of God, and you then you believe that Justin was called of God. The danger is, is that too often we think I can have a little bit of this and not that I can make Joseph Smith parrot what I wanted him to say. I can keep my traditions. Not exactly. Hard truths are coming for everybody. In fact, really a spiritual life is a life of sacrifice. And you'll find this in all faiths, a truly spirit filled life is going to be life of sacrifice even. And I would say that that's even true and I still think it's even God working in it for many other faiths.

1:53:23 A man, a man in the Catholic Church who becomes a celibate priest, who's dedicated his life to God is going to receive from God an outpouring of the Spirit so that he can lead people right to do good. And it in in measure with his the sacrifice he's making, he's making huge sacrifice. And whenever we receive in Western rabbits by being this law, which is predicated every time he fulfills one of those laws, he's going to receive the blessing, right? And how do you do that sacrifice? It's through sacrifice. And so the danger of there's a big danger in taking the all or nothing approach that I have to sacrifice all things, which means I have to sacrifice all things right now. It's true, overwhelming can't do it. So I'm going to sacrifice nothing and go pursue the things of the world.

1:54:07 Not a good plan. It's not. It is line upon line. And so to have more revelation revealed to us, we have to have built the good foundation first. So I think I like your advice. It's like the it's like the multi tool. It's like the Swiss army knife. Yes, the fullness of the restored gospel as found in the scriptures, especially an expanded set, right? You can't pick and choose. It's all in there. You got to accept that the whole kit is here and bring the whole kit with you. That doesn't mean you need to use every tool. When you thought, wait for the Lord to reveal when to use each tool, when to build each part of the house, and then eventually it'll come together and then you'll be grateful that you didn't throw away half the tool set. And This is why it's sad that these hidden revelations were hidden and lied about, because then when people do want those tools, when they needed those tools, they find themselves bereft of the tool that they needed. And it causes great suffering like it did for that one woman you mentioned, right?

1:55:16 Who they were at odds, that they were terribly at odds with their own family, tearing them apart because he said this is a true revelation from God. And they said, no. My church told me that's fake. It's a lie. It never existed. You guys made-up this up. It's a complete lie. It's a fabrication. And then they couldn't, they couldn't just have a difference of opinion that a difference of facts. And that is so much more dangerous. Yep, Yep. Yeah. No, I agree with you totally. And look for the first time in a very, very long time, not just because of of of the restored version that that Drew has put together.

1:55:59 You can find these in a bunch of different places. I can't encourage you enough to go get those scriptures. Well, in fact, that's kind of the interesting thing to note, right? Of this whole printing project was just a way to try to get it into a a usable form, a more useful format and easier to carry format. Nothing in here is like new in that sense. All of this is stuff you can find if you're searching for it. Right. Absolutely. But never before have we had greater access to all those things, right? Yeah. And it would, Yeah, it's, it's just more convenient now. So I can't recommend the the restored version highly enough for folks who want to get back to to kind of the, the OG way of doing things in the in the Mormon hood.

1:56:41 But you're going to want to have in one form or another, access to those revelations. And look, if you read it and it feels repulsive to you, that's OK. That's what these are new things to you and you, you know it's going to happen. My my advice would be sit with it, set it aside, but don't scrap it. Because you're going to want that part of the kit and that it's not a part of the kit you want to use right now and you don't understand how to use it. Give it time. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And then when you need it the most, it will be at at, at your availability.

1:57:23 And having it available to you will make all the difference in the world I. Suppose The thing is, is I wanted to do this overview because I really want to talk about what is it about revelation that is hidden from us. It isn't just outside being hidden from us. It's our own hearts not wanting to see the place where we have to sacrifice. In fact, I'd say that probably the most important revelation in each of our lives is the one we don't want to see, right? If we're going to progress, it's that one that's like, oh, but I don't want to have to do that. I don't want to take that leap. That's probably the, that's the pinch point. It is probably the key to your progress. Unfortunately, that's a difficult reason, but we kind of did an overview. I wanted to talk, I talk about the context, not really the revelations.

1:58:07 I would hope that in your series you do probably shorter than this, but you do an episode on each revelation, including each of these as their own episode, because each revelation is filled with insight, right? I mean, partly it's like, let's just go in there, sequential scripture teaching, identify the principles. There's something that I presented for the Restoration Torah conference a few years ago, which was what is exegesis? In other words, how do we understand the scripture and pull truth out of it? So, you know, I give, I, I give some tools for a Mormon version of exegesis. There's a Protestant way of doing exegesis. There's a Catholic way of doing exegesis. There's a, a Jewish way of doing exegesis. I was like, we are our own Mormon method. So I made a Mormon method of eight steps of exegesis. We should do that for all these because they're new revelations to us.

1:59:04 In many, in many cases, yes. I've read most of these that are in the restored version. I've read most of them already, but going through them and really digging in deep is something that we all need to do because now it's successful, we are left with that excuse. We should learn. We should learn these principles, right? So I hope you'll do that. And I just want to make those points. I guess the last thing I'd like to end with then is let's end with the end of the last of the four hidden revelations. All right, So what I really like to end on is the end of the 4th, the 4th hidden revelation. It is the revelation to Wilford Woodruff in 1889, right?

1:59:44 This is Wilford Woodruff five in the restored version of triple. Because I think that this really is the kind of comfort that I get from these revelations and it really tells me a lot in that context. The Lord says I cannot deny my word, neither in blessings nor judgments. I, the Lord, will deliver my Saints from the dominion of the wicked in my own due time and way. Therefore let mine anointed gird up their loins. Watch and be sober and keep my commandments. Pray always and faint not. Exercise faith in the Lord and in the promises of God. Be valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ and the eyes of the Lord and the heavenly hosts are watching over you and your acts. Therefore, be faithful until I come, and I come quickly to reward every man according to the deeds done in the body. Even so, Amen, the Lord's with us. That's the reminder that I get from these revelations. When I first found out about them, I was filled with joy, so excited to know that the heavens were not sealed, that there was more revelation, there was more scripture, there was more light, more truth, more knowledge.

2:01:01 And I've gained A testimony. There's always more light. There's always more truth, There's always more knowledge. It will not cease, not for the eternities to come. Millions upon millions of years, and a new revelation will be revealed to you and will no longer be hidden to you. And those mysteries will no longer be hidden, but instead your knowledge will expand, right? That's eternal progression. That's what this promise to the faithful, which means there's always going to be more. Yeah. And, and I think that it's hidden because people don't want it. When I first published eight of these sections in the addendum of the Doctrine Covenants, I had people, lots of mainstream LDS people that I'd say, did you know, there's more scripture, there's more revelations. Isn't that awesome?

2:01:47 And I was surprised that the most common reaction was more, do I have to read more? I already don't read the ones we have. I don't want more. And I realized that type of reaction being the most common reaction I got even when I was in the mainstream alias church. And I started to read about these things. It shocked me because I thought, why wouldn't you want more light, more truth, more knowledge, more blessings? And that's why so many things remain hidden to us, right? So often we're like, look, I'm worn out. I have enough. I'm not ready for more. And if so, I think that that's OK so long as your break is you taking a deep breath so that you can plunge in deeper, not so that you can get comfortable in your in your worldview without knowing the fullness of the truth.

2:02:42 No, I agree and look again. I think your religion should always challenge you. Right. If it's not challenging you, what's it good for? Right. What's it good for if it doesn't challenge you? If it doesn't make you a little bit uncomfortable from time to time? Sometimes a lot. You're not doing it right. I hate to break it to you that way, right? It would be, and again I apologize, kind of a meathead, but it's like going to the gym and you've been lifting the same 5 LB weight that you have been since you were in high school. Where's the benefit? You can say you went to the gym, I guess that's good, right? You kept moving, that's good.

2:03:23 But if you're going to be there, you might as well get the maximum effect. Get progress mate. Make progress. Do something. Yes, yes. And if it overloads you for a while, great, you hit your limit. Now you get to take a breath and you get to go back and do it again. And that's a good thing. And, and because Mormons are goal driven, we're we're goal oriented. We really are, right? We're shooting. We're shooting for a thing. And that is good. We should, we should be that way. But sometimes I don't think we give the journey enough credit, right? Sometimes I think we become so fixated on the goal that we miss, we miss the lessons that we're supposed to take from getting there. And we have to be.

2:04:09 And often times those are uncomfortable, but none the less, those are, those are great times. I if we look back, at least myself, if I look back at the times I was most challenged, man, those were the times I had the most, most growth. And sometimes I look back on that and go, well, it kind of sucked in the moment, But man, I wish I could go back. I wish I could do it again, right? So embrace it. Don't just don't just shun it because it makes you feel uncomfortable. It's OK to be uncomfortable. And that's why I read that part. You know, don't be afraid, right? The Lord is with us. He may not be able to deny his word, but he will deliver us.

2:04:51 And if we have faith in the Lord, in the promises of God, makes life easier, not harder. I know that it feels like it's making it harder when we have to make a sacrifice, but in the end, it's worth it. It's worth it to not throw things out. Don't. You don't know what's baby and what's bathwater at first. You don't know which tools you're going to need. So don't start throwing tools away out of your toolbox. You might never know when you're going to need it. So just yeah, let's have faith instead of fear about new revelations. They are happy, absolutely.

2:05:32 Absolutely. Well, Ben, that was good stuff, my man. Yeah, it's great to chat. I I hope that people stuck with us all the way through that. It was rather long. It's. All right, We're we're only a couple hours in. Yeah, I was. Going to say a couple hours, pretty long episode. I know I've listened to some of your episodes that are even longer. But yeah, you know, yes, most of us have a very short attention span these days, so. They do. They do, yes. Yes, you know people said that early on, right? That with with two 3-4 hours worth of conversation you'll lose people. But funny thing is I actually found people that were hungry for that right. And look, good luck on tearing anything apart in Mormonism in 45 minutes.

2:06:14 It just. Doesn't exist, right? They call the steep doctrine for a reason. If we're if we're really going to go through all of these new sections these all these revelations we haven't had before and we're going to perform proper exegesis on them. There is a wealth of information there. In fact, so much information in these revelations that we may never fully exhausted the same way that in the Bible there is so much information we have not come close to fully exhausting the amount of knowledge, light and truth we can get from fully understanding. It's the same thing with these revelations. All the revelations of God are deep in symbolism, in meaning, in principles.

2:06:55 Even very esoteric things are hidden within them. And so, yeah, the the deeper you dig, the more jewels you will find, the more you'll find that Pearl of great price for which a man gave all that he had that he might obtain it right. And so that's, that's what I believe about the Scriptures. And these are scriptures. These revelations are from God. And as such, it is worth selling all that you possess that you might obtain that Pearl of great price. Is that hard? Yes, it is hard. But like the rich young ruler that Jesus spoke to, Jesus offered him a greater treasure that all that he possessed, but he when he couldn't see it, he went away sorrowing because he thought, why would I sacrifice all of this?

2:07:42 I have so much good. Why would I sacrifice all of this? I can't sacrifice all of this. But how much better off would he have been if he had? His substance is perished. The rich young ruler is long since dead, and he is remembered only as someone who had a chance and missed out on becoming one of the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yeah, so the sacrifice is worth it. It's just hard to see that at first. It's just so hard to see that. It's like, no, I'm not giving up all this good, all this good stuff. Don't look at the totality of the work. Just start. Yeah, just start, right. Don't.

2:08:23 Don't think about the dauntingness, the how daunting. It was like he. Did. Yeah, don't, don't do that. Just start taking bites at it and it'll all come to be. But then this was excellent stuff. I'm glad we did it. And we'll have you back on to perform some of that isagesis on some of these sections here, because like I said, I plan on going through every single one of them. And it's a going to be a years long process, but we are absolutely going to go through all of them. Because I feel like, I feel like there's, there's wisdom in that. These are new things to most people. And as new things, they deserve to be treated with the same kind of love and respect. We have treated the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants with for the last, I don't know, 200 years. It's it's time we're there.

2:09:15 And this is a tremendous blessing that we have now. And I think it's time that we we give and give them their property. So I'm going to make an effort in that for sure. And so there's going to be lots of people I call on to, to go over these to get different perspectives. And I'm, I am super excited for this prospect because it is sorely needed. And let's, let's get Mormonism in its fullness into our systems and start, start, Start learning more and understanding more. But bro, love you. I appreciate you being here. I can't wait to do this again. All right, well, we'll let me know. All right. Bye everybody.