Episode #213: Christian Nationalism Part 2-An Examination Of Its Ideology & Compared With Mormon Doctrine W/Justin Francom

0:26 The. You're listening to the Mormon renegade. Podcast, OK, we've got to talk about this, right? God, you follow Christian nationalism and you apply that back to Jesus as a day. You're killing Jesus and his apostles as soon as they eat the corn on on the Sabbath. Yeah, yeah. But that's. Talking about it.

1:07 But that's OK because it it because, you know, we've got these stories in in the Old Testament. So so Protestants believe in this thing called Sola scriptura, right? They have this view of the Bible that says it is inerrant. And the, the, the Calvinists particularly have this idea that you can find that they the Bible has the answers to every question. Now, I love that approach, but I think you can take it to an extreme as well, right. So what do we believe as Mormons about the Bible? That is true and translate.

1:51 You know it's true, and as far as it's translated correctly per Joseph Smith. In as far as it's translated correctly. And so I'll be honest, I have, I do have issues with some of the stuff that I have found in the Old Testament. Some of these laws like this one of, of taking children to be executed for disobedience to the parents. I don't, I don't see a, a very good explanation for how that can be the same God that sends his Son Jesus Christ to teach what he taught. And I think that that's a very, we don't know the specifics, right. But I think this idea of that maybe, maybe the Old Testament and New Testament aren't the most reliable things in the world.

2:45 That's kind of a Mormonism. I think that really is kind of one of one of our core tenants. And in fact, I, I wanted to go to the scriptures on this because interestingly enough, and I, I wanted to maybe do some more scripture stuff later. But we have this whole story playing out here in the Book of Mormon in first Nephi chapter 13. We've got Nephi and he's having that vision that his father had, right? And he's being guided around by an Angel and he's seeing everything he sees. He sees Christ's ministry and he sees our days. And in the process of that, in chapter 13, it says in verse 10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters, and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

3:33 And it came to pass that the Angel said unto me, Behold, the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren. The brethren there would be the the Lamanites, the Indians. And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters. And I beheld this, that the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man, and he went forth upon many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren who were in the promised land. Who is this? It's, it's Columbus, right, Right. Yeah. The spirit falls upon him and he gets and he has this inspiration. He wants to go, and he finds the promised land. And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God that it wrought upon other Gentiles, and they went forth out of captivity upon many waters. Who are these guys?

4:19 That would be the. Pilgrims and the Puritans. Right, right. So I mean, this is, this is a good thing to review anyways, right, 'cause we were just talking about, or you were just talking about, you know, the, the Puritans and the, the pilgrims, right, and the separatists the other day. So let's see what the Book of Mormon has to say about them. And I looked, and beheld a man among the Oh wait, bronze spot 14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise. And I beheld the wrath of God that it was upon the seed of my brethren, and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten. Sorry, Mitiga. Daddies were funny, but.

5:03 Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Look at that, at that, if you. Need to. I think I might just leave that in unless you really want me to take it out. All right, so yeah, what, what the, the, the, the Indians were naughty, right? And God is letting the Gentiles scatter them. And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance. And I beheld that they were white, and extremely fair and beautiful, and they were like unto my people before they were slain. So these are the these are the English people, right, the pilgrims, the Puritans. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord, and the power of the Lord was with them.

5:53 Whine on, right? We just, we just heard about these miracles. Right. And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters and upon the land also to battle against them. Now we're into the Revolutionary War and I. Shall be able to withstand 1000 of our enemies. Right, Right. Yeah. It's just so amazing how prophetic that time was, right? I mean, the people in that day were prophets, you know, maybe lowercase P but nonetheless, honestly, I'd almost even say maybe uppercase Pi mean some amazing people came in that time of history. Absolutely a a time of many great prophets.

6:36 And I beheld that the power of God was with them and also the wrath of God were upon all those who were gathered together against them to battle. And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone forth out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. So this is, this is God establishing us as a covenant people, right? Just like they said we are. This is a covenant land. And that is undeniable. I mean, that aspect of Christian nationalism they do have, right, that this is a covenant land, that we are a blessed people inasmuch inasmuch as we obey God's laws. But here's the question, right? Here's the rub.

7:18 What are those laws? Because we just saw Doug Wilson say that he's going to outlaw Mormonism. We just saw Calvin say that he's going to outlaw Mormonism. We saw the the pilgrims, we're going to, we're going to kill Joseph Smith. What are those laws? Well, I think that's exactly what Nephi wants to answer next. What are those laws? Because that is the question to ask at this point. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did, Oh, I read that part. And the Angel, you know they didn't. OK, Verse 20. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land. And I beheld a book, and it was scattered forth among them. Oh, a book. An Angel said unto me, Knowest thou the meaning of the book? And I said unto him, I know not.

8:05 And he said, Behold, it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. Notice it's a Jew singular, right? I find that very interesting, actually. I don't actually believe in the documentary hypothesis, at least certainly not as presented by the by the secularists and the academics. But this almost sounds like there was a Jew that's maybe responsible for compiling this book because it says it comes forth out of the mouth of a Jew. Well, you know Micah and Isaiah and Jeremiah, these were not the same Jew. So I'm thinking this is a a version of the Bible, a collection of sacred writing. It proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it.

8:53 And he said unto me, The book that thou beholdest is the record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the House of Israel. And it also contains many of the prophecies of the holy prophets. And it is a record like unto the engravings which were upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many. Nevertheless they contain the covenants of the Lord, which He hath made unto the House of Israel, wherefore they are of great worth unto the Gentiles. So this is great, right? This is a really important book. If they didn't have this book, they probably wouldn't be able to be there 'cause they wouldn't understand the covenants, right? They're not there to create this, this city on a hill without an understanding of those covenants. So they wouldn't have come if it that they didn't have this book and these covenants.

9:39 So that's a good thing. But 24 And the Angel said unto said unto me, That was beheld, that the book proceedeth forth from the mouth of a Jew, and when it proceedeth forth from the mouth of a Jew, it contained the fullness of the gospel of the Lord. Justin, can I stop you right there? Because you you said something about and I found it interesting, right? And look, I'm not trying to trash talk a whole section of people. I'm trying to point out that Joseph Smith is consistent in this. So when you say a Jew, I want to take you to the King Follett discourse because he says it again, OK, He says it says in the King Follett discourse, Joseph interpreted the Hebrew word Bereshit. He claimed that an old Jew, without any authority added the word.

10:35 Which? Again, kind of ties back to the Book of Mormon, right? And so again, it's not about a whole group of people as much as it is about there seems to be this one, one guy maybe. Right. Well. Pointing out. Well, I, I think this guy, it says it contained the fullness of the gospel when it comes forth from this a Jew. So I think this a Jew is probably has a prophetic calling, a lot like Moroni. OK. But after that, this is a text that needs to be replicated, interestingly enough, right? These are ancient records. They're written on scrolls. These things deteriorate. They don't last forever, which means you've got to keep copying them over time and over time and over time.

11:19 Now, if you had these engraved on like stone, you'd be unable to alter them. Or like tablets? Or maybe brass plates. Yeah, a lot harder to to change that, right? If you're doing a scroll, you can change it anytime. Any scribe can change any time they're copying it. Potentially. You could have banned versions. You could have families that unintentionally right deviate in the in their copings of these things. But yeah, so it's coming forth from the mouth of a Jew. But yeah, a Jew didn't like a part, so they changed it. Now I don't understand this. This doesn't make sense to me. It might not even been in bad faith, but regardless, this can't be right.

12:03 This doesn't make sense according to how I understand everything. So I'm going to, I'm just going to change it as I'm copying it for my family or for, for selling or to do it for the synagogue or whatever, right. Exactly. So at one point this, what we today call the Bible, has the fullness of the of the gospel of the Lord in it. OK. Of whom the 12 apostles bear record. It's interesting that he, now he's bringing up the apostles. Why? Because. And they bear record according to the truth, which is in the Lamb of God. Therefore these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles.

12:44 Now it's saying, the Jews what? Which Jews? The Sanhedrin? The Pharisees? The Sadducees. Or is it the apostles? The apostles, we just got introduced to the apostles and they're Jews. Wiles bring up the apostles and, and say that what they're going to teach is of great worth to the Gentiles. And these are, these are true things. They're going to teach some true things here. And then it, it, it becomes, it's, it's pretty clear too. It says, and the Angel of the Lord said unto me, thou has beheld it. The book proceeded for. Wait, I did that already, right? Yeah. Therefore these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God, which they just said.

13:31 The apostles are testifying of the truth which is in God, and after they go forth by the hand of the 12 apostles of the Lamb, and there you go, now you know. There's the answer. There's a. Pure version of this Bible that the 12 apostles have that it goes forth from them unto 12 Apostle Lamb from the Jew unto the Gentile. Thou seest the formation of the great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all of the churches. For behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

14:13 Now here's here's my contention. And this is again, this is my opinion on this too, right? This is my theolog. This is no, I'm not speaking on behalf of, of God or even my, my, you know, even the Mormon legacy ministries. I'm speaking from my own understanding of what I'm reading here, right? But I think this makes sense. This the Bible is corrupted by the great and abominable church after it says after it goes forth from the 12 apostles, but we don't necessarily know what the 12 apostles had. When I hear Christ say what is the Christ quotes Deuteronomy and says what he asked them what is the 1st and great commandment to love the Lord God with all your heart, might, mind and soul right and then Christ says, and the second is like unto it, you shall love your neighbor like yourself.

15:02 I didn't see the second in Deuteronomy. Is quite is Christ quoting a more complete version of Deuteronomy in both of the verses? Maybe. Interesting. I don't think we would know if he didn't spell it out if he doesn't say, hey, and it we read in Deuteronomy and and Christ doesn't do that. None of none of his quotations do that. So honestly, I even wonder how much Christ actually quotes in the Old Testament, because we see him quote stuff that we have. Could he have been quoting other stuff as well that that we have no idea that that was also a quote.

15:45 Maybe that was also Deuteronomy. It was just a different Deuteronomy. And I don't think what is being said here precludes the idea that these texts could have been corrupted beforehand as well, right? If Christ had suppose that is the case and, and, and, and the Old Testament has been corrupted and Christ is doing his ministry, what would happen if Christ says, oh, and by the way, you think that's the law of Moses where it says this in that verse and that is wrong. That's not the law, right? I, I think they would have, they would have killed him immediately. I mean, you're speaking out against the Holy Spirit. I mean, look what, look at what, look at the what the Christians did.

16:30 It's Joseph Smith, 100. Percent. You've got a a new Bible, you've got a different, you're saying our Bible is not reliable. You're saying that provokes violence among among religious people 9/9 times out of 10. So, so I don't know that Christ would necessarily draw attention to the corruption, but if it's not all corrupt, he could certainly use the parts that aren't to illustrate the things he needs to teach. And so that's kind of the take that I'm taking on this. This is how I understand what Nephi is explaining here too. So it is pure.

17:11 So the 12 apostles, maybe Christ has a, a copy that isn't corrupted. Maybe he does a Joseph Smith translation of his own that he gives to the apostles. I don't know. But they have a version that's that's uncorrupted and it's going to go to the to the Gentiles. But and so who are those Gentiles, by the way? I would dare to say it's probably those that Holy Roman Empire at that point. It's what he's talking about there. I think it's before. You think it's before that? Wherefore these things go forth from the Jews impurity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth, which is. Involved. That's a good point, yeah. Right. So I think this is Paul and Peter and and Barnabas and the original 12 apostles.

17:59 They're the ones who delivered to the early church. So we don't have copies of of what the Bible looked like in the early church. Again, like, you know, we have these ancient older versions of stuff like the Septuagint things, right, the Dead Sea Scrolls, but we don't know that that was what they were using either. And so regardless, it's impurity. But then after they go forth by the hand of the 12 apostle, the Lamb from the June. And this is the great and Bible church, right? They've taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious and also many covenants of the Lord. Have they taken away. This is important here because I think what Nephi with the Angel he was trying to explain is, is that the Bible that these Gentiles bring over the ocean to America with that they bring, it's not reliable.

18:51 It has been contaminated. That's the main point here, right? And it's interesting that they specifically, he says taken away, taken away. It seems like it's been corrupted mostly by removal than it has necessarily by addition. And what's fascinating is when you look at Joseph Smith's Moses and you look at Genesis, Genesis as in as defined in the in the Bible as we have it today, right, is pretty much word for word there in the book of Moses. But the book of Moses has a heck of a lot more and it's, it's a wild how different it is. I mean, you're in, you're reading the book of Moses. You're finding out that Noah and his sons are preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ before the flood. It just flat UPS.

19:41 It says they're teaching Jesus Christ. Did Noah know who Jesus Christ was according to Genesis? Not according to Genesis. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know anything about that. But when we look at Joseph Smith translation, no, he was teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is what Noah was preaching. Well, that's kind of important. And if you don't like Christ for some reason and you want to remove him from the Old Testament, that's what you're that's you're going to remove the plain and precious things. The fact that Joseph Smith translation basically in, in Moses and I, I actually agree with a comment Joshua Erickson made on your podcast a few, a few weeks back, right?

20:21 I think that a lot of the translation of the of the Old and New Testament that Joseph Smith did is interpretive. He's not necessarily restoring the the text, he's giving interpretation. He's restoring the meaning of the text. Yeah, he's getting the meaning back to what it should be, but he's not getting it back to the original narrative. Not verbatim. Except in Moses. In Moses that's exactly what you see and what we call the book of Book of Moses. We see this humongous amount of addition that just changes everything on how you look at those stories. And unfortunately, it stops right before Noah.

21:02 We get an introduction to Noah. We learn important things like in Genesis, it says God repented that he had created man. God is like, man, I wish I didn't, man, you guys all suck. I wish you could, you could parent telling us children like that's a little rough. I'll be honest. That's not the best example as a father to be like, you know, I wish you, I wish we'd never had you. But but in the inspired version, we find out that was Noah making that complaint. I get it. And if you grow up with a lot of siblings, that's a whole lot more reasonable. Man, I wish you'd never been bored. But anyways, I mean, I think we see that there is definitely some unreliableness in the Bible. The Puritans didn't know that Noah's preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.

21:59 We only know that because of Joseph Smith and he put those testimonies back in. The first thing that Moses has in in his whole vision of Genesis before the vision even starts, right, is he's taught the gospel, He's taught that he's taught that there's going to be a savior. Jesus Christ is, you know, people talk about like the Book of Mormon is so Christ centric, right? It's like it's like he's, he's referenced, like I don't remember, that's just was it like 4 1/2 times on every page or something. Pretty wild. You know, the restored version of Genesis looks like that the Joseph Smith's, the Pearl of Great Price, books of Moses.

22:41 They look a lot like the Book of Mormon in that regards. And what exactly is Nephi saying here? That the plain and precious parts are going to be removed. But what is the Book of Mormon? Well, the plain and precious parts restored, maybe not the same stories, but it's brought back. Christ is the center of the Book of Mormon. I think Christ is the center of, of the Old Testament as well. I think the only reason you don't really see Christ outside of deep, deep, deep symbolic analysis, which requires, you know, a, a Talmudic degree and, and, and as a, as a Jew is because it was removed.

23:25 It was there. It's not there now. Now, if that is the case and the Puritans are coming over to America, they're bringing this book as their standard, what would happen next? Well, let's find out. Let's ask the Angel. Did you want to comment? Oh, go ahead. All right. Versus I think we're at 29. OK. If not, that's all right. We'll, we'll continue. From no, I think it's 29 we're on. And after these plain and precious things were taken away, it goeth forth from all the nations of the Gentiles. And after it goes forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles.

24:06 Yeah, even across the many waters now all the nations. That's the whole that sounds like the Holy Roman Empire, right being established. This Bible, it's, it's going everywhere. 100%. And it's even across the ocean, yeah, even across many waters that I've seen with the scene with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity. Thou seest because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God. Because these things which were taken out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great number, many do stumble. Yay, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them, saying these guys that come across the water, the Bible, they're going to, they're going to stumble.

24:55 Now the Jews kind of stumbled as well, right? The Jews kind of stumbled as well. They stumbled because they've been waiting for this Messiah for millennia and he shows up and they reject him. Why? Because they're looking for a political savior, right? They want a guy to bring the sword. They want him to drive Rome out. They want to reestablish the Davidic rule. They want. They want. Nationalism. Yes, Yep. They're looking for Jewish nationalism, and when Christ doesn't give it to him, they stumble.

25:41 I see. Well, the Gentiles, that these Puritans and pilgrims, they're going to stumble too, in fact, exceedingly great. Many do stumble in some, yeah, in so much that Satan hath great power over them. Nevertheless, thou beheldest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of the captivity and have been lifted up by the power of God above all their nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that Lord God had covenanted with thy Father, and that His seed should have for a land of their inheritance. Wherefore thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer, that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed which are among thy brethren. So the Gentiles, despite this issue, they've got God's going to allow them to take take the land, but also, but not completely take it. In other words, they're not going to establish Christian nationalism, which would eradicate the pagans if it were truly implemented in that way over time. They're going to be the, the, the Lamanites, the Native Americans, they're going to be a portion of them are going to be preserved in this state.

26:55 Nevertheless, he will suffer that the Gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren. They're going to destroy him, but they're, some of them are going to survive. Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall ever forever remain in that awful state of blindness which thou beheldest therein, because of the plain and most precious parts of the Gospel of the Lamb, which have been kept back by that abominable Church whose formation thou has seen. Wherefore, saith the Lamb of God, I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the House of Israel in great judgement. So in this, in this in the state of whether the Native Americans repel the, the, the the colonizers or the colonizers are going to win, right?

27:40 God saying that God's going to favor the colonizers in this case, even though, even though he's going to be merciful unto the Gentiles, even though they're blind because of the this flaw in this in this book that they've got this important flaw. He's recognizing that that and and correct me if this is an unfair assessment, they're going to stumble because the of all the plain and precious things that have been taken out of the owner's manual, right? The how to manual on how to do things. And so that's the reason they stumble and that's probably the reason he has has mercy on them, because he recognizes it's not really. Their fault, right?

28:23 They're doing their best. They think they've got this book. They think it says that they've got to do this. 100%, you know, and that's once again, and I've said this before on the podcast several times, I think God waits for us to do stuff first, right? Like how serious you going to take it? Are you going to make an attempt? Because if you make an attempt, I'll help you. But if you're just going to sit back and continue to be academic about it, there's not much I can help you with there, right? I'll let you fumble around for the answers, but at some point do something. And here we see it again, right? You have a people who's willing to do something and then the Lord's like, good enough. I can work with that. From there, we'll move.

29:04 Forward with that, it's a move. It's a chess play, right? Chess play. I'm I might not be in Zion yet, but I'm one step closer. Yeah, you've entered the game. You've you've coaches put you in time to. Go. Yep. OK. So, but what is God going to do about it? Because this is still, this is a problem. This is a big problem nonetheless, if we're going to get to an actual covenant city, if we're going to get to an actual covenant nation of God, the fact that the the the handbook forth the manual is unreliable. That's a problem. So the angel's going to explain how this happened. I'm going to skip a little bit into the middle of verse 34 after so because it's got a lot of it's repeating, right?

29:51 The the stumbling of the Gentiles, the stumbling of the Gentiles. I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day in so much that I will bring forth unto them in my own power much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb. There's going to be a restoration, right? And how, how is how is God going to bring about this restoration in mine own power right now here's the thing I loved. I love to research the old stuff, ancient civilizations, occultism and like the Dead Sea Scrolls. Awesome, right?

30:34 There's some really cool stuff to be gleaned from those and I like studying that. But the solution here isn't that God's going to say that it isn't, that you're going to find an uncorrupted version of the Bible. That's not the game plan. Sure, I can see that. Because this is going to be God's going to fix this in mine own power, not by our power. We're not going to fix this ourselves. We we can study the Bible and be ultra, ultra Scriptorian and and memorize that whole thing. We're not going to be able to feel theologize our way out of this problem. We need God to intervene on our behalf to fix the problem of the fact that we have a corrupted version of the owner's manual on how to establish Zion.

31:31 So for behold, saith Lamb, I will manifest myself unto thy seed. This is the Nephi seed. Christ, say, I'm going to manifest myself to your descendants, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious. And after thy seed shall be destroyed and dwindled, and unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hit up and come forth unto the Gentiles by the gift and power of the Lamb, and in them shall be written my gospel saith the Lamb, and my rock, and my salvation. And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day. Again, he's talking about Zion. This all has to do with Zion, starting with, with Columbus, the, the Gentiles coming out of captivity to America.

32:17 This whole section, the angels explaining how Zion is to be established. How does Zion get established? How do we go from the dark ages and the Holy Roman Empire to Zion on earth? And he's hitting the key points that really important things Columbus, the the, the Puritans and the and the Separatists and the the founding fathers and the war with with England. But the big. Problem. Yeah, but the big problem keeping us from Zion is our Bible is unreliable. But there's a plan. God always has a plan, right?

32:57 And the plan is the Book of Mormon. This is our blueprint for Zion AS. Mormon. It's not. It's there's is. I'm not saying that the the Old Testament is all bad and wrong. There's great stuff to be found in there, but it's not going to function as a blueprint. That's what Nephi is trying to say here. This is what the angel's explaining to him. The Bible does not work as a standalone manual to establish a covenant society. 100% OK, no, this is all. Coming. Together. This becomes the standard, right? Blessed are they who she seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost.

33:43 Again, more restoration requirements. You don't have the gift, the power of the Holy Ghost without the restoration of priesthood. And if they endure unto the end, they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting Kingdom of the Lamb. And whoso shall publish peace? Yeah, tidings of great joy. How beautiful upon the mountains shall they be? Which again, this is. That's a reference to an Isaiah. Right. Right. Bless. How's it go? Blessed are the how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of they who? Of they who published peace? Yeah. Who published glad tidings of joy. Right. That is a reference to the establishment of Zion.

34:24 And, and to a lesser degree, it's in this, it, it is a reference to temples, right? Anytime that they talk about going up the mountain of the Lord, that's a temple motif. And that's, and, and, and he's, he's telling you what you're going to see. If you're familiar with Isaiah and you get Isaiah, you're going to understand, oh, wow, look, all these things are going to happen. And then there's going to be other additional scripture and then we're going to temples, all part of the plan of Zion here. Right, Yeah. So I think the Book of Mormon really answers that question that if we're fumbling around with Old Testament laws trying to implement these and, and we read this and well, I guess we got to kill our children when they're disobedient, I guess we got to, you know, I guess this is how we handle the sex slaves. This is you're going in the wrong direction. You're not going to get to Zion that way. If you're going to get to Zion that way, the, the pilgrims would have done it.

35:24 The Founding Fathers would have done it. There. There's another word back up there. I can't remember what verse it was in. I'm scrolling right now but it said many of the plain and precious things and the covenants of the Lord. Yeah. Everything we do in Mormonism is informed by that covenant relationship, that covenant process we go through. That's how personal changes enacted. And I would dare to say that's why Mormonism ends up becoming a a parallel society, a counterculture, right. I've said this for a while. I think that Mormonism is the first successful counterculture to ever hit America and it's still going. And and so that whole covenantal nature relationship that would that would affect how you deal with other people. If we look at the covenants we take in the temple, very not that they don't have to do with God, but realistically why they do have to do with God, they also have to do with our relationship with other people.

36:31 Yeah. We look at the law of chastity, OK, That's about how you're going to treat your spouse, right? Law of consecration, That's how you're going to treat your brothers and sisters who are coming in. Law of sacrifice, same sort of thing, right? All these things I they, we are covenanting with God for our own benefit, to make us better people. But the process in which that covenant is outwardly apparent is how we deal with others. And so if those covenants that are mentioned by Nephi that are taken away, well, then, yeah, that would change what you do with a kid when he's disrespectful.

37:17 I could see that being part of it. Right. Yeah. It's it's an interesting connection there. That's a great find. Yeah. And so I, I, I think that so the Christian nationalists, they want they, they have a vision of Zion in a sense as well, right. But their vision of what this is, is, I think inarguably kind of incompatible with with the Mormon understanding of what this is. And the key difference, the key difference here is that they are turning to this unreliable Bible to try to figure out how to do this. And what we're seeing here is we're seeing ordinances, we're seeing the Book of Mormon, we're seeing temple.

38:00 And like you said, this says that they the Bible has some of the covenants, just doesn't have all of them. They had the covenant of the understanding of that Israel was a covenant people then the pilgrims, they wanted that covenant nation they got they had that covenant, but they're missing, they're missing the rest. They don't really understand the Abrahamic covenant. They don't understand what that was about. They think that's just about, oh, you're going to have a lot of children. It's purely purely secular, right? Or like it's purely carnal. It's purely temporal. The spiritual side of the Abrahamic covenant is, is, is Abraham becomes a God and has an eternal posterity as a God. Yes, he's promised to be the father of us temporally of of the believers, but he's also promised this, this the divine relationship and that's missing that was that there's the covenant that was taken out.

38:53 We need these things back if we're going to get to actual Zion. And, and again, we need to use the Book of Mormon. That's what basically what the Angel is saying. The Book of Mormon becomes the blueprint. This is the, this is the new owner's manual. God's not going to restore the old owner's manual and we're going to use that. No, he, he's prepared us a new one. And we're going to be using the Book of Mormon to figure out how we're going to do this. So with that said, maybe we should look at what the Book of Orbit actually has to say about government and and how that stuff's established. Does that sound good? Yeah, let's do that.

39:34 All right, so we're going to go over to Alma 30 now, and we're going to cover the story of this man named Corohore. I'm not breaking any news here. We live in spiritually perilous times. It seems like danger is all around us or our family spiritually all the time, but our God hasn't left us defenseless. We read in Ephesians chapter 6 verse 17 and take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. So in our spiritual battles, the scriptures are our sword. But just like real swords, not all Canon of scripture are made equal. You need to make sure that you're entering the battle with the right gear. With that thought in mind, Drew Brownie and others have been working on a project to bring you what is now being called the restored version of the Scriptures. So what is the restored version of the scriptures? The restored version is the most accurate, exhaustive, comfortable to read, a triple combination ever made. It was designed to honor Joseph Smith's revelatory words and edits through clean and accurate Joseph approved texts. The restored version contains each book found in the modern LDS triple combination that is the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl.

40:41 Great price, except it has Joseph's original inspired text and an easy to read format. It restored the Lectures on Faith, which were removed in 1921. It adds an additional 87 uncanonized revelations of Joseph Smith, as well as 33 revelations received by Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilfred Woodruff and other members of the Quorum of the 12. Each copy of the restored version is built to last. These scriptures look good, feel comfortable, and are bound to last. The restored version uses cover material that is ideal for for high quality books that is both hard wearing and soft and should handle many years of use. It has beautiful gold and silver gilded edges. It has sturdy, flexible binding, making it so the book may comfortably and safely be laid on a desk. It has reliable paper that is very thin, yet sturdy and thick enough that it's hard to see through, and comes with marking ribbons so that you never lose your reading place. Each copy of the restored version are built with the intent of lasting for years and years, just like the LDS versions of the triple combination. You might be asking yourself, what are the benefits of owning your own copy of the restored version of the scriptures? Well, how's this for starters?

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43:14 Now to get your copy today, just go to www.restoredscriptures.com or click the link in this episode show notes. Again, that is www.restoredscriptures.com or click the link in this episode show notes and order your copy today and arm you and your family with the word of God. Now let's get back to our conversation. All right, Justin, where was that scripture at again? Yeah, we're going to look. We're going to turn to Alma 30. And again, what we're going to do here is we're going to look for an example of how the Book of Mormon can give us the blueprints for how to establish Zion. What does the political state of Zion look like? So we've got to understand the, the, the Nephites, they have the brass plates. Possibly by taking the brass plates the the the Jews lost their only reliable copy of these texts, I didn't think. About that.

44:12 This might be part of the reason why there's a problem later on, Yoink, but regardless, we're going to look at this as our guide for trying to understand how this works. But we understand they do have. I think it's undeniable. They've got a version of Deuteronomy, right? They, they, So, but what does their version of Deuteronomy say? So there's some issues here, right? Like do one of the things in if you were going to take Deuteronomy literally, Deuteronomy 13 basically says if anybody comes preaching a different God, you got to kill him.

44:53 That's obviously before Christ. And if your family follows after that prophet, you got to kill your family members. And if you have a city that goes after a false God genocide, like wipe them all out. So very strict, right? Very, very strict. And I I decided to ask the question, if that was in the version of Deuteronomy that Nephi bring across the ocean on the brass plates, then is there evidence of that? OK, let's find out.

45:34 Let's find out. So let me just share an example. Lehigh, before he dies, decides he wants to give his children one last blessing, right? So at the end of Second Nephi, and he blesses his grandchildren from Lehman and Lemiel and he tells them, hey, you're going to be blessed and preserved in a special manner because your father's have taught you these false traditions, these false religion. And if they hadn't lied to you about this, you guys would have, you would have stayed in the truth.

46:14 But because of your father's teaching and a false God, you're going to fall away. But God will be merciful to you. Why doesn't Lehigh kill Lehman and Lemuel? Does he not have Deuteronomy? Several times. Are you disobedient? Check. So, OK, that one applies. Are they preaching a false God? Yeah. Check. That one applies. Do they lie? Yeah, They're kind of liars. Check. I mean these guys are breaking all of the commandments. And it's like they were physically abusive to Nephi, right? I mean, like, if you're Lehigh, you got to worry a little bit about Nephi's health, right?

47:01 Because I mean, they kick the crap out of him when they're, you know, trying to get the plates and then they tie him up on the boat, right? They try to they try to to beat him again as he's building the boat like. After Lehi dies, they go to war. Yeah, like I've done from their first land in their first temple. Yeah, I'm just thinking of Lehigh's just Lehigh's life. Right. He would have. He would have asked absolutely if if that. Yeah, Yeah. That's a good point.

47:42 Right. So where is that? If Deuteronomy, if they've got that version of Deuteronomy, where why doesn't it manifest? I think that would be like the ideal place for it to manifest. Well, maybe God had special reasons. OK, well let's look at some other places. So here in Alma 30, we've got another case. We're going to learn about the Nephites judge system and how law works among the the judges. So we've got this guy named Coral whore. He's an Antichrist. He's, he is one of the worst Antichrist because he is preaching humanism. He's teaching this Darwinism. He is, this is man is God, and nothing you do in the pursuit of your own power is wrong.

48:25 The only evil would be to not suppress the weak so that you can prop because I mean, I'm superior, right? If I can oppress my brother, then I'm better than my brother. And therefore, my brother shouldn't continue, but my line should continue. It's, it's a horrific theology, right? And we, we were very familiar with this today. We understand this, this is the law of the jungle. This is, this is the results of Darwinism. And it's this. And at least to this humanism, A vile, vile doctrine. And Korohor, he's going around preaching this and he preaches it to the city of Zarahemla. And and you know, people aren't super, they're not super impressed.

49:11 And he goes to the anti Nephi Lehighites. These are the Lamanite converts. And he goes into their city. He tries preaching it to them. And these guys, these guys are a little more zealous, but they're also kind of new in the gospel, right? They're like, this is the most horrific thing I've ever heard. Tie that man up. And they do. They tie him up. They tie him up. They take him to their chief judge, their civil, they take him to their government and they're like, this guy is preaching a different God and trying to sway us to serve a different God. He's teaching a different theology.

49:53 So he's a. Which in the Old Testament. Was a killer defined? And yeah, he's a he's a false prophet is defined in Deuteronomy 13. What do we do with a false prophet? Well, at the at the most you can execute them at the most. That's that's a possibility. And is coral is is what coral horse doing about as grievous as you can get with this. It it really kind of is right. This is a very pernicious doctrine. This isn't hey, I disagree on on I disagree on blacks in the priesthood. This is the difference between, you know, fundamentalism and and anti Mormon or or Christian nationalism that wants to, you know, destroy us for our faith and belief.

50:40 This is some heavy stuff. This is and he's he's got a very corruptive, corrosive message. So what did the judge do with him? They catch him, they tied him up. You bring him to the judge and the judge is like, what law did he break? What, what verse are you you looking at there, Justin, because. I think I'm actually. I'm sorry, I'm paraphrasing the story a little bit just from memory. I would like, I would like to read, yeah. There's the, there's the. Definitely some specific parts in the text I wanted to get to. OK, cool. Right. So the, and so they eventually, they, they bring him.

51:21 I'm just going to finish the narration, right. Eventually they bring him to Alma the prophet. And he's like, I don't know God, what do you do with this guy? What do we do with this guy? We don't know what to do with him because he's preaching a different gospel, He's preaching against, he's preaching a different God. He's causing problems in our society. What do we do? And what ultimately happens is, is he's excommunicated from the church and released. He's not he, is he? There's no governmental force punishment, there's no sanction. They don't stone him like it says to in Deuteronomy. They don't even have a less He's not fined. He's not imprisoned.

52:06 They let him go. Why do they let him go? Well, Moroni is going to tell us. He explains this. So here in verse in Alma 30, verse 8. For thus saith the Scripture, Choose ye this day whom you will serve. Oh, oh, so we know that they've got book of Joshua. But what does that mean? This is Moroni's commentary. Now, if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege. Or rather, if he believed in God, it was his privilege to serve him. But if he did not believe in him, there was no law to punish him.

52:48 Does that sound familiar? You know that's. Kind of go ahead. Maybe Rodger Williams wasn't the first person in in North America to come up with this idea of freedom of conscience. But if he murdered, he was punished unto death. OK, And that aligns with Deuteronomy. Yeah. If he robbed, he was also punished. If he stole, he was punished. If he committed adultery, he was also punished. Yeah, for all this wickedness they were punished for there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law regarding a man's belief. Therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done.

53:40 Therefore, all men were on equal grounds. I mean, we could be done right now, honestly, because it's it's right here. The Book of Mormon is very clear that this Christian nationalist attempt at overthrowing secularism, this is no bueno. Where's the where's the law? It says that for there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. There's no law against a man's belief. Yes there is. I've read the Old Testament. There is. Why don't the Nephites think there is?

54:23 Oh, because. They've got brass plates right. They've got a different, they've got a different record than than than we do. And it's important, this is really important to get right. If you don't get percent right, if you follow the, the, the law of Moses as a not as a non dispensationalist and you try to make those laws, the laws of the land, right? We're, we're back to bloodshed and wars over religion, whether it's Catholics killing Catholics, Catholics, the Papists and the, and the Protestants, the, the, the, the pilgrims in Indians, I mean, all this stuff, right? This unending bloodshed.

55:11 Is that what Christ wants? That's why you I think at a certain point we have to ask ourselves, what does Christ, what is a Christian nation? I believe that the Book Mormon is telling us right here, a Christian nation is 1 where all men are on equal grounds. That is a Christian nation. Regardless of their beliefs. Regardless of their beliefs that that is what God wants. This is what the War in Heaven was fought over, right? That's where I was going to go. We're talking about agency here. And if Abraham, it tells us this, that man was created to see if, if we would do all things whatsoever, the Lord our God shall command us.

55:55 We're here to be tested, to see if we will obey God. It doesn't say that we're here to be coerced into obeying God. We don't need to create a fallen secular or not secular, but we don't need to create a a religious state to enforce God's law. That's not why we're here. We are here to be tested and tried and judged. We're here to figure out who we are. Are we the kind of person who's going to stand up in the face of oppression? Are we going to, are we going to bow down? Are we going to turn our face the other direction? Are we going to take up the sword against our brethren for incorrect beliefs?

56:37 That's exactly what we're here to do. This plan doesn't work in this Christian nationalist utopia. Right. There has to be even at the end, and I agree with Doug, is how we get to Zion. We get there conversion step by step. It's Zion starts in the heart, not as a city. That's how we got to get there, but what does it look like when we get there? He says once we get there, parents can have their children killed for disobedience. No, no, people will have freedom of conscience even in Zion.

57:19 And we have this texture telling us this story of Korahor to illustrate exactly why this is so important. Because we don't get this in the Bible. If we just follow the Bible, we're going to end up going down a very, very wrong path. Or at least we're going to have the wrong idea in our head about what, what, what we're going towards. What, what does Zion look like? And I'd even argue, how can we establish Zion if we don't understand, right? The lectures on faith tell us that in order to have faith in something, you have to have a correct understanding of it. In order to have faith in God, we've got to know who God is. Right. How can we have faith in Zion if we don't understand what Zion is? If we think Zion is what the Christian nationalists are selling, then how can we have faith in it? If we don't have faith in it, where is the power? Faith as a principle of action?

58:11 How are we going to get there? So yeah, if we don't. If we don't know the destination, we don't have a map. Good luck. You're, you're, you're up in the night. You, you will be lost, dude, that shit. And the implications are amazing, right? Like, I think when we start talking about Zion, we have to look towards the restoration for that. There's too much there that you've shown in first Nephi and then in Alma to show that they are operating somewhat differently. Yeah, I think so.

58:54 So we can move on because I mean, I, there's lots more in the Book of Mormon on this. Obviously, I I, but we, we could, we could do with this as a in fact, that might be a really cool thing to do is maybe come back into a future podcast talking about a vision for Zion. Yeah, yeah, I'm down. I'm down. Salivating. Already for that one, let's look at Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. What did they have to say about Christian nationalism? Right. All right, well, this is Joseph Smith in Doctrine Covenant section 134 via revelation from the Lord canonized accepted by the Church verse 9 and this is these are we do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government comma. Now there's going to be a clause here, right? As a Gen., That's the general principle. But now there's going to be an exception, right? It's qualified whereby it's actually not. This is the qualification whereby one religious society is fostered and another prescribed in its spiritual privileges and the individual rights of its members, citizen as citizens denied.

1:00:07 OK. It's, it's right there, right? This is, this is not Christian nationalism. This is the opposite. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. No, this, this right here, it's telling you what quote we believe, right? This is Joseph laying it out that that that civil government cannot favor one religion over another. But that's exactly what Christian nationalism is aiming to do. Right now, it's important to say that we do not believe a just Domingo religious influence with civil government in that case, which means in the other cases this is allowed, which goes to Doug Wilson's point that he was making earlier in that video.

1:00:58 Like we can, we can be Christians in the in, in Babylon in. The public square. In that public square in the world, we can live our faith in that world. That's OK. I can be, I can, I can choose to try to get elected for I mean, jeez, Joseph Smith tried to get elected president, right? I can try to get elected president. That's OK. And if I was president, I would make decisions based off of my moral, my moral convictions as a Mormon. And that's OK, as long as those moral convictions don't lead to a situation where one religious society is fostered and another proscribed, In other words, another one coerced in its spiritual privileges.

1:01:50 Right. And the individual rights of its members as citizens denied. So we demand the possibility of pluralism as Mormons. Yeah, Joseph Smith not down with the. Yeah, Joseph Smith, not down with the Christian nationalism. Well, and why would they, they, the, the, the Christian nationalists of his day are tried to kill him and eventually did. So I've I've got I've got some more here. This is more specifically about Zion. Well, actually, first this is just fascinating, but this is so after Joseph Smith gets run out of what they get.

1:02:35 I mean, they're out of New York, they're out of Pennsylvania, right? They're, they're getting chased all over the place, kicked out of Missouri, and eventually they go to Illinois, right? And they and they and they're going to establish Nauvoo. Right. This is they get a special charter from the state of Illinois where Nauvoo is almost a city state in in its rights. Right. Yep. Right. So this is literally a place where Joseph Smith is kind of legally, in a sense, king. If you wanted to establish Christian nationalism, he's got permission from the state of Illinois in Nauvoo to do so. So what does Joseph Smith establish? This is ordinances in relation to religious societies.

1:03:17 City of Nauvoo, 1841 Be it ordained by the City Council of the City of Nauvoo, that the Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodist, Baptist, Latter Day Saints, Quakers, Episcopals, Universalist, Unitarians, Muhammadians, in other words, Muslims. Muslims. And all other religious sects and denominations whatever shall have free toleration and equal privileges in this city. It does not fit the Christian nationalist model. It just can't. Yeah, it doesn't fit. It just can't the. Scriptures. The revelations when Joseph Smith has a chance to put pen to paper. When he gets to enact essentially, and look, I know some people say, well, Joseph really wasn't trying to create a Zionist, a Zion in on the Mississippi. I disagree with that.

1:04:13 Yeah, I disagree with that wholeheartedly. You can hear by the way he talks that his vision for the city of the Saints and other people can walk up to it. All nations are going to float in Nauvoo, he said, right, All nations are going to come in here and they're going to OfferUp their prayers and they're going to participate in these ordinances. And so he is trying to establish a Zion type society. People say, well, why didn't he try to bring back United Order at that time? Well, they're all pretty destitute, right? Let's be clear. No one's rolling under the dough to kick start that bad boy. And it's at some level to kick start a united order. You have to have resources.

1:04:55 Well, and they kind of are too, actually. But it's a United order focused on building the temple first and foremost. Right. Well, and also Joseph was pushing for that. If you go back and look at the records, you have talks from him where he says when you can do business with other Mormons, right? He is starting to to to start that process again, back up understanding it's going to take a hot minute to get everyone back on the same page. And so I don't buy the thing that Joseph wasn't trying to establish a Zion society on the banks of the Mississippi. I think he absolutely was and history bears that out. And with that being said, if that's the case, he's obviously saying all are welcomed in Zion as long as you uphold the laws here, right? Don't care what you believe, but you got to uphold the laws. Right.

1:05:49 So this is one line. This is now we're going to go to Brigham Young and this wait. Brigham never has anything good to say, right? I mean, he's always. Never. He's always mean. This is Journal of Discourses volume 2, Discourse 47. I'm not going to read the whole thing. I'm just going to read an excerpt. OK. When the nations shall see the glory of God together, the spirit of their feelings may be couched in these words. Quote. I will be damned if I will serve you in those days. The Methodists and Presbyterians headed by their priests will not be allowed to form into a mob to drive, kill and rob the Latter Day Saints. Neither will the Latter Day Saints be allowed to rise up and say we will kill you, Methodists, Presbyterians, etcetera.

1:06:40 Neither will any of the different sects of Christendom be allowed to persecute each other. OK, so again from Brigham, this time from Brigham. But he goes on. Well, what will they do? They will hear of the wisdom of Zion, and the kings and pontanates of the nations will come up to Zion and inquire after the ways of the Lord, and to seek out the great knowledge, wisdom and understanding manifest through the Saints of the Most High. They will inform the people of God that they belong to such and such a church and do not wish to change their religion. OK, so they're going to come here and they're going to be like, hey, I'm a I'm a Baptist.

1:07:22 I don't want to be a Mormon. I want to be a Baptist, but I want to I'm here, I'm at here, I am at Zion. And I don't want to serve. I don't want to serve the devil and and the world as it's falling apart. I want to I. Don't want to raise my sword against my neighbor. Yeah, yeah. And I want to maybe I want to raise my children a place of stability and peace. What are they going to do? They're going to be like, well, I don't want to give up. So is is is Zion Mormon nationalism? No, no, right. They will be drawn to Zion by the great wisdom displayed there and will attribute it to the cunning and craftiness of men. It will be asked, what do you want to do, ye strangers from afar?

1:08:06 We want to live our own religion. Will you bow the knee before God with us? Will you maybe enter into a covenant? Yeah. We're going to keep you. Kneel with us as we address God. We want to live our own religion. Will you, will you bow the knee before God with us? Oh, yes, we would as soon do it as not. And at the very time and at that time, every knee shall bow and every tongue acknowledge that God who is the framer and maker of all things, the governor and controller of the universe, He will have to bow and knee.

1:08:47 Then he shall confess that he is God and that Jesus Christ, who suffered for the sins of the world is actually its Redeemer. That by the shedding of his blood he has redeemed men, women, children, beasts, birds, fish, the earth, it earth itself, and everything that John saw and heard praising heaven. Oh, so we are going to make him be Mormons. Well, we're a little more clarification. They will ask if I bow the knee and confess that he is that Savior, the Christ to the glory of the Father. Will you let me go home and be a Presbyterian? Yes. And not persecute me? Never. Won't you let me go home and belong to the Greek church? Yes.

1:09:27 Will you allow me to be a friend Quaker or a shaking Quaker? Oh yes. Anything you wish to be. But remember that you must not persecute your neighbors, but you must mind your own business and let your neighbors alone, and let them worship the sun, the moon, a white dog, or anything else they please, being mindful that every knee has got to bow and every tongue Confess when he have paid this tribute to the Most High who created you and preserves you. You may then go and worship what you please or do what you please if you do not infringe upon your neighbors. Dude, Zion is not the picture of Mormon nationalism, right?

1:10:10 It is. It is something different. Now, that's Brigham Young. And let's face it, when you talk about imparting OK, earmuffs for the little kids, it's not a horrible word. But earmuffs, you've been warned. When you talk about the ultimate hard asses and Mormonism, there's not one much harder than Brigham, right? And for Brigham to be like, no, you can hang. I expect that you people will hang, right? We'll be all right. We'll figure. This out not from. Trees, right? Not very good. I like that one. We can hang and not from trees. Right. Right. No, but that. But it's the truth, right? Like Zion's going to be a place where different religions may be in different strata, so to speak, right?

1:10:57 Yeah, they're going to get along. That there's a way for us to get along right. The Book of Mormon is saying that the doctor in covenants is saying that Joseph Smith is teaching that Brigham Young is giving us this vision of that. There is nothing, I would argue, and, and, and there's nothing more Mormon than pluralism in the government. That is the foundation of Zion. That is what is testified in our in our scripture, is what has been taught by our prophet, is what we've been given through revelations. And it's also the opposite of which that almost killed us and did kill the prophet. Yeah. The absence of.

1:11:38 Which 100%, and I don't know where you're at in your presentation here, but this is where I want to tell people do not fix your gaze upon and I'm just going to say it like I feel it here. If you set your eyes on Christian nationalism is the answer in the ills to our or the solution to our ills, you will worship a false Theo political idol. What God is after is a place where his children can come to him in their own time, in their own way, and be left to their with their rights and their will. There is no other religion on earth that puts as much emphasis on man doing the right thing because that's what he wants and feels he should do than Mormonism. Every other place you got to deal with predestination, you got to deal with with this, that that sort of thing where where choice becomes, yeah, I don't know, abjicated to the back, right?

1:12:47 This is the place where where God wants your heart, but he's going to give you the space to get there. And that does not look like Christian nationalism. So fix for those listening, fix your eyes on Zion. Study Zion. What is that supposed to look like? And that will inform you how you should probably behave going forward if that is the desire you want. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I think that's a great, a great segue. Let's talk a little bit about why not Christian nationalism? What's, what's the big deal here? Why did I want to even do this podcast with you talking on this topic? Because I, I think there's definitely some things that we need to, to be concerned about with the, with the Christian nationalist movement beyond just whether we agree or not, right. So I'm going to share, if you don't mind another clip. Absolutely.

1:13:46 This is a clip from the debate that is a kind of a more typical Protestant debating Doug Wilson as a Christian nationalist. And he he does not agree with Doug on these ideas, but he's trying to, they're trying to figure stuff out, right? They're having this discussion. So this is this is part of some of that debate. 6 here we go. And so the other pastor here, what he does is he he, he's concerned that Doug Wilson is stirring people up to fear that he's got them kind of psyched up. We got to take to the streets.

1:14:33 We got to take this country back. Grab your guns. We're going to, we're going to land of Canaan, this Babylon, right? If I were a Machiavellian, I could build a huge website catering to evangelicals. That was just fear porn, you know? Oh no, Oh no. Oh no, Oh no. And. I mean, that's, that's one of my main concerns here. But let but let me share the concern and point to something in in Moscow, where we've been working at building a Christian community for decades. I know what you're talking about, and that's not what we're doing.

1:15:14 Yeah, but you're writing your writings in the writings of others are doing that so, so. I don't think so, because. I'm going to quote, let me quote, let me quote here, Toby. Let me quote Toby for a minute. Our culture, the Christian W, what is left of it is in the last gasping hours of stage 4, terminal cancer, secularism has metastasized, and it's all in our organs and lymph nodes. And then he goes. So if anything, we're not pugnacious enough. We're not fierce enough. And if I quoted Ben Crenshaw here, which you gave, you gave another one. I want to see a return to political Protestantism that can rule a nation wisely through civil law, fashion, rhetoric, technology and more. Alternative cultural movements are fine for now, but at some point Christians in America will have to get comfortable with coming, becoming explicitly political again, and taking the reins of power in Washington.

1:16:13 Wow, wow, wow, wow. OK, so you'll. I don't know, pause for a second there, right? So he's reading some, he's reading some quotes from some of these Christian nationalists, right? And this is what I'm hearing, Like that first one talked about cancer, right? I am hearing fear, right? The sky is falling. The world is about to be. The world is about to end. We have to do something immediately. This is stage 4 cancer. It's in the lymph nodes, right? We are. We are all going to die if we don't abolish secularism.

1:16:53 If it kind of sounds like a call to arms in a sense, certainly. And and and the problem with that right is it is motivated by the spirit of fear. And This is why Doug's denying it. That's why he denied it the beginning before he shared these quotes. You know, and going going back to a little part I did with where I showed that clip from Driscoll where he says. Yeah. Mormons are are demonic essentially, right? You have you now have that call, right, Which I'm sorry, if you start talking like it, it's almost like, oh, from what's their names, Chad and Lori Daybell, right? It's almost that kind of like they're possessed. There's nothing you can do.

1:17:45 And then you have this call here that's look, I'm not saying anything is impending, but you should take note of this, right? Take take note of this, understand what they're saying. The old man's have a great a great quote, which is you always take a madman at his word. And I'm going to take these guys at their word and then I'll see what they do. Right, Yeah. So there's that to be concerned with, but there's also just even the effect that what they're having upon Christians who are listening to the message is a bit of a problem, right? Even if they don't decide to immediately grab arms and and have a, a, a Christian nationalist communist revolution, it's still, it's still dangerous. It's still bad, right, Because these are Christians and they're being taught a gospel of fear them fear the other. The reason why your life sucks, the reason why you're facing tribulation, the reason why it's hard is because those guys out there aren't obeying the law.

1:18:56 Now, there is some truth to that, right? There is some truth to that. But what are we called to do about that as Christians? It would be the light on the hill. We're we're the salt that provides look, salt serve 2 two things in the old world, right? The first one was flavor. We still do that today. The other is it was a preserving agent, right? So we're we're meant to preserve the best qualities in humanity, is my feeling. The other don't hide your light, right? We're there to attract people to us, right. If we look at the imagery of the light that's hid under a bushel, things become dark.

1:19:46 We're supposed to be the ones to show the way away from the darkness. What I hear Doug talking about here is something that that quite frankly, is maybe not completely dark, but it sure is the last hours of dusk. And I think it it deserves to be looked at in that fashion. How we win converts is by letting the Spirit do its job. We just set up the appointment. Right. Yeah. The Spirit and the Lord can do their own work. We just got to set up the appointment. And we do that through proclaiming the gospel with people in our own sphere of influence. Yeah, and and what does Christ actually teach right? Is Christ saying that, hey, those people aren't obeying the law, that's going to cause bad things to happen to you, therefore enslave them.

1:20:44 Blessed are blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. The call to the disciples to be a prophet. Prophets are not popular. If there is a state religion it will preclude the prophets messages it has. Look at Israel. When has Israel not tried to stone their prophets?

1:21:24 Never. Yeah, it's. Just how it goes, right? So Christ is telling us what to ex what? What should we expect as disciples of Christ? Well, a hard world, right? And we've got to, we've got to deal with this with grace. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the merciful, they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are they which hunger and thirst after righteousness, they shall be filled. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. What did this guy just say? Did he just say the meek inherit the earth? No. He says you, you lousy Christians, get your get off your asses and conquer this land.

1:22:07 We need to inherit the earth. 2 arms. Right. It's a different message entirely than what Jesus is preaching. Yeah, it's a very different message and and Doug knows it, right, which is why he's was denying this at the beginning and saying we're not, I don't, I'm not doing fear porn. Because he understands that if if his message to Christian nationalists is you've got to be afraid they're coming for us. And if we don't do something about them, they're going to get us. And you get people riled up that way, you're violating the teachings of Jesus Christ. 100%. But he denied it. But we just got some examples, right? You know, the audience can judge for themselves. The reason why I leave people up or not, you have. To convince me here, that's my mission as a Christian. I still haven't followed through. I'm already jumping down.

1:22:56 But there's nothing you guys like, you know, killing cancer with a little civil war. That's the language. So, so come on. I mean, this is the kind of rhetoric that's stirring up everyone that you may have, you may have joyful families in Moscow. But don't you think you guys, that the perception is we're putting all this writing out there. We're sort of the spearheads of the defenders. You've been known as the most controversial pastor in America by Tucker that that essentially that this is a sort of implicit call. We have the answers in Moscow to the problems that are happening and you give this great perception out there, catastrophic post millennialism.

1:23:43 I think that's the rush journey position. A catastrophic post millennialism is going to happen. We're almost there. Get on board now. You've stirred everyone up this way. I thought he had a good point. I thought he had a good point. This is one of the problems, right? Because here's the thing, whether you're a Christian, a Mormon, LDS fundamentalist, we all have a responsibility to police our own right. As a fundamentalist, I don't want to be associated with Warren Jeffs. So when I see Warren Jeffs out there saying really bad crap, I'm going to speak out against it. We might agree on the importance of the doctrine of plural marriage, but we do not agree on Apple and all this other stuff. So is Warren Jeffs an ally to me, or is he a liability? At best a liability.

1:24:46 Yeah, at best a liability, and I think that's true of every organization. Who is responsible if somebody is using your name to preach a different religion, are you not responsible to speak out against that? I kind of think you are. I think that's really, really important, right. And that's the criticism here is that Doug's, he's claiming that Doug's not he's, he's getting people scared. And even if he's not the one leading them to the conclusion of we need civil war, you got them riled up and you passed them on to your friend who you don't, who you're not denouncing.

1:25:28 So there's a bit of a principle here. The same one. This is very much the same thing. It's a really short clip, but again, just to show what it is. What is the message this? Statement I I wanted to take the book and, you know, OK, it's to our shame that we sheepishly tolerate the assaults against our Christian heritage. We are dead inside talking about Christians lacking the Spirit to drive against the open mockery of God and claim what is ours in Christ. Well, I wanted to say up front that then even Jesus didn't pass your test. Here's a statement that gets to the heart of my concern on that. He's the one that cleansed the temple. OK and and by the way, that was a sort of redemptive historical act.

1:26:20 I'm not Calvin even cautions right there. Applies to everyone. Yeah, but it. Look at him, look at him. Oh yeah, look at the face. There is something that happened there. Like I dude, I think I don't know who this other pastor is. I'm worried he might be a bit lefty, but nonetheless, he's making good. He's not. He's not, He's not, he's not. They they, he said he'd take Reagan over Trump later on in the interview at one point. I don't think I've got that far. But anyways, he's no, he's he's, he's a, he's a one of the good ones. Back a few seconds, even before this Justin, that look was the look of a man who, if he had something, that's a man who's not happy. I'll just leave it there.

1:27:04 I'm not going. To try to ascribe motive. To this dude but dude look at his face he. Was shook he was. He is upset. He is. He's kind of in a righteous anger here. How dare you claim that Christians cannot be meek, that assault, persecute Christians, bad mouth Christians for being meek? Yeah, for a living to beatitudes demanding that they, you know, become crusaders. To the heart of my concern on that. He's the one that cleanse the temple. And yeah, Yep. Mass came off for just a moment. Yeah, Yep.

1:27:47 Right. And here's the thing, he's giving an excuse for that. How? However, you know, I'll, I'll let the debate play. Out and by the way, that was a sort of redemptive historical act. I'm not Calvin even cautions. I'm not sure that applies to everyone. No, but it applies to him. It applies to. Jesus. Amen. Amen. The zeal for God's house assumed him, so he wasn't dead, but. What was the example specifically, Doug? Well, let me answer. What was the example specifically? First, Peter, Jesus left us. The example is When he was insulted, he did not insult. When he was beaten, he did not beat. He entrusted himself to him who judges righteously. And then he suffered and died on the cross. So was.

1:28:28 So, you know, that's a sneaky deflection there on Doug's part, in my opinion. I he's like, well, Christ in the temple. OK, well, he, he's nitpicking here, right? The pastor, this point was he was using that for rhetorical emphasis and now he wants to debate the accuracy of the of the rhetoric, not the actual point. He's he's not he's not addressing the actual issue here, though. Should Christians behave like Christ teaches in the Beatitudes, or should they behave as Doug Wilson is telling them to in his book? Right.

1:29:10 Because those are at conflict. And it might be, you know, we can get into the weeds on whether Christ fits that definition or not. And that's, that's Doug's intent because he doesn't want to address the real issue. I think that's why you see that kind of look on his face, like the kid caught with his hand in the candy jar because oh crap, this is a, this is a slippery situation. My mask is going to fall. Jesus sheepishly tolerating the assaults against him. Sheepishly, No. As a warrior king. I'm just pointing out that cleansing of the temple meant that he did pass Wolf's test and I wasn't talking about what example he set for us that we are commanded to follow. We are.

1:29:55 We are commanded in Peter to follow the example and following his steps to follow the, you know, to accept the slings and arrows they get thrown at us. So, yeah, he he basically kind of deflected, you know, he made a really good point that this is problem. He doesn't refute it, right. That was a quote from a a guy, Michael Wolff. He's a little more extreme than and then Doug Wilson on his in his version of Christian nationalism. And Doug could have said, yeah, I disagree with that. Yeah, that's that was a terrible thing to say. Why would he have said that? That's not what I believe about Christians. I don't think Christians have to take up the sword or they're weak and effeminate, you know?

1:30:36 But he doesn't. Instead, he nitpicks whether or not Christ cleansing the temple, you know, counts. He's basically arguing Christ against Christ, you know. Well, Christ in his temple behaved in a way contrary to how he tells us to behave in the Beatitudes. You know what I find interesting about this, Justin? And we, we touched on this earlier, one of the things that many Christians will level at Mormons as you worship a different Jesus here these guys are debating about a different Jesus. Right. They're doing it right here. And they're doing it right here. And if Doug Wilson had his Christian utopia, yes, then they'd be killing each other over this.

1:31:20 Let's let's not call it, let's call this what it is, right? And, and look, this is going to be a spicy take. This is not a fruition of the Constitution of the United States. This is not Zion. What Doug Wilson wants, essentially, is a Christian caliphate. Yeah, that's it. That's what he's calling for, and he's claiming it in the name of Christ, saying this is what Christ wants us to do, stirring people into a different gospel. He wants a Holy Baptist. He wants a a Holy American Baptist Empire.

1:32:00 That's what he's looking for. Yep. So do I want to go into that one? Let me skip that one. Are you sure we do it? All right, let's do it. Let's do it. OK, let's talk about Christian eschatology. This might be new to the viewers and I the only reason I know is because I've I've been studying these kinds of things with these guys. Explain what eschatology is. Eschatology is how it ends, the philosophical concept of how it ends. And in Christian theology there are three primary types of eschatology. They're called premillennial, post millennial, and amillennial, meaning no millennial.

1:32:44 And the Christians, the the Christian sects have all divided themselves into three different camps on this. And what it revolves around is the interpretation of how does things end? When does Christ come back? What is going on when Christ come back? So I'll just go through these as best I understand them and I might have some of this little off. I'm not, I'm not a Protestant, but this is how I understand them. I picked that up actually somewhere in our. Conversations. I picked that up. Yeah. So post millennial, post millennialism, post meaning after Millennium being the Millennium where Christ reigns, post millennialism believes that with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Millennium begins. Do you see the Millennium?

1:33:38 I don't see the Millennium. OK, well, I thought it began. If it began at the resurrection, why aren't we there? Well, because through the resurrection, Christ has given us all that we need to now establish his Kingdom. So the post millennialist, millennialist idea is that the the world will get more and more Christian over time, more and more better, more and more righteous until we achieve the Millennium and then Christ will come. So it's up to us. Now, there's some things to admire about this eschatology, because in this eschatology it is up to us. Meaning we've got to get off our butts and get to work. Right.

1:34:32 We can't just sit around waiting for Jesus to come back and just worrying about me and myself. Me, my, me and myself, my own. You got to get out there and you got to do some work. You got to serve. You're going to have to teach. You're going to have to do a lot of, you know, a lot of that work. I admire that aspect of post millennialism. The downside of post millennialism, as we're kind of seeing here, is that when you have a post millennial view, it's almost like. Everything is up to mortal. It's up to you, Yeah. Is Christ going to come back? It's it's kind of up to you.

1:35:14 And if it's up to me, well, it's kind of the outcome that matters, right, How we get there, maybe a little less so. So. So the ends would justify the means. It kind of that's kind of what I think we're seeing right. And I don't think Doug Wilson's necessarily acting in in bad faith in his belief, but nonetheless that ends justify the me the needing the ends to justify the means aspect of post millennialism has created him and has allowed him to interpret Scripture in a way that I, that even this guy disagrees with, right? In a way that's requiring Christians to rise up and take this country back. And that's just not a, that's not a Christian stance even even for this guy.

1:36:02 So that's post millennialism and that comes from Calvin. And that is what most Christian nationalists are coming from a, from a post millennial perspective. And that's part of why there's, again, there's beauty to that. There's some good to it, but maybe it's not all, maybe it's not complete. Now, premillennialism, this is the, the, this is the left behind eschatology. OK, we are, we're, we are pre millennial. We are not at the Millennium yet. And in premillennial eschatology, things get worse and worse and worse and tell they're so bad that they can't get any worse. And then there may or may not be a rapture first, but then Christ will come and judge the earth and and and and and condemn it. Gotcha SO.

1:36:52 That is the, the, the, the pre, the pre millennial. We're not there yet. We're we're before the Millennium. And that one is things just get worse and worse and worse until Christ basically bails us out at the last second. This is kind of like Chronicles and Arnia type, you know, Aslan showing up at the last second to save everybody. There's a lot of truth to that too, I think, right? Right. Well, I was going to say, so far the restoration falls somewhere in the middle of all these. Right. Yeah, it really does. And then you got the a millennialists. And that's what this this pastor here specifically who's debating with him, he's he, he is from the a millennialist camp. And the a millennialist camp basically says it doesn't really matter.

1:37:39 Christ is going to return when he returns and what's up to us is to whether sunshine or rain to, to live the faith and and do what God expects of us. That's the a millennialist approach. So I mean, with that said, where does Mormonism fit in right? It's so funny because I think Mormonism This is my take all right, but I think Mormonism are are are post and premillennialist at the exact same time. I would agree there's too many the world. Yeah, the world as a whole, Babylon the Great, the great Nabambo Church, right.

1:38:20 But it but before it falls, it's controlling the earth. It's on many waters. They are everywhere. They are arrayed against the against the Saints of God and the House of Israel to destroy them. They've got it all. That's the world. They're at a place of Sodom and Gomorrah level wickedness. We're we're going to get Noah level cleansing things that get so bad. Malachi is quoted Joseph Smith. The whole earth will be wasted at his coming if not for the fulfillment of this prophecy. We're very much very, very much premillennialists that way. With one cool caveat. Zion, the city of refuge. Yep.

1:39:05 And in that aspect, in Zion, in regards to Zion, we are post Millennialists. We have to establish Zion so Christ can come back. Zion will rise. It will descend from above as it rises from below 100%. And we've got what we've needed. We, we, we've got the priesthood, we've got the doctrines, we've got the teachings. All we've got to do is put this together and live this way, this as as the pure in heart. And once a Zionist society is established, that's when things will end. So we are post millennialists and we're pre millennials kind of at the same time.

1:39:47 An interesting combination, which is kind of fascinating. Anyways, that introduction is to this because there he's going to point out a serious flaw in post millennialism as a as a Protestant. And I think it's worth looking at these kind of ideas and arguments, even though it, you know, as Mormons, we have our own thing. Have become the kingdoms of this world, have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ, You say That's past tense. Yes. So there, there, this is a reference right, to the Scripture. It says the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of the Lord. And this is in reference to the, the trumpet, the 7th trumpet in Revelation, right?

1:40:32 So the Christian nationalist side is saying that that's past tense because they're post millennialists. This has already happened. Christ already has been given the nations. They're his now, right? While the the the premillennial or a millennial would say that, well no, that's the future. When the Sabbath trumpet blows, that's when Christ claims the earth. Heard you say that. That's wrong, man. Me too. Me too. Just tells him you're wrong. That's just that's just blatantly wrong. All right. And then you say as a, as a follow up to that, that means nothing is off limits, fundamental ground level restructuring of well, everything to pursue a Christendom. Wow.

1:41:20 OK, on that premise, I, I think it's important to say and this and this gets a little bit too Doug, I'll come to you on this point of what happens at the set that happens at the 7th trumpet. I never hear anyone raise that point. Now, if you're a full preterist, I realize that's going to be problematic. Oh, he may have to explain that pro. It's a preterist. A preterist is somebody who believes the Book of Revelation has already been fulfilled. It had to do with the Roman Empire, all that, right? And it has nothing to do with the future. It is of no value to us. As far as understanding what the future holds. That's a preterist. As Mormons, we are not preterists, right? Joseph Smith.

1:42:01 Now, there might be multiple layers, right? We could be preterists in friends, sure, Mormons, we like everything. You've got what you got a millennialism pre Millennium, but we'll take them all. Are you a preterist? Are you a literal or a futurist? No, no, we're we'll take them bold if they're wherever there's truth to be found. But that's what he means by a by a preterist. So if Christ, and if Christ becoming the sovereign of this earth is in the future, or is it in the past? Right, You're going to believe that happened in 8070 or whatever, but take GK Beale. God now takes to himself the rule that he formerly permitted Satan to have over the world. Don't gasp, Doug, because that's what you said in in Mere Christendom when Boyd said that the 7th trumpet, like the 7th seal and the 7th bowl, narrates the very end of history. Already.

1:43:04 Not yet. So it still might be a little hard to follow. Again, sorry. It's they're using Christian language there, right? But what he's basically saying is you're saying the 7th trumpet that, that that happens at the end of the world. We're not there, right? The 7th trumpet hasn't blown. Therefore, at this point what he really is saying is, is, is, is Lucifer is the God of this world until Christ takes it at the 7th trumpet. And if Lucifer is the God of this world, that's going to have some problems to this idea of Christian nationalism. All right, so so the very end of history, their prophetic perfects past actions from a perspective of the future. That's a, that's a fairly, you know, good scholar there. I want to say with post millennialism, and I say this, you know, the time is the timing's all off. So.

1:44:06 Here, So let me just follow up. The timing's all off. It's a dream and I'm not seeing it happen. Now would I love to see it happen? That's not a do I want we get back to the one thing I don't I sure don't see it. You say it may happen 1000 years down the road. But how's that not optimistic, Amil? You were talking just a little bit ago about how Jesus is reigning even though it's chaos all around us, right? And it really is already not yet Jesus rose from the dead and was he ascended into the heavenly places 2000 years ago, Daniel seven, He was given universal authority over every nation, everything He was given that dominion and in Psalm 2, the same thing that you or my son today have begotten you is Acts 13 applies that to the resurrection. All right, I know it's hard to follow. I wanted.

1:44:59 This is a very interesting clip though, because what's going on here is we're they're trying, they're debating when does Christ inherit the nations? When does, when is Christ sovereign over this earth, right? And they're debating this based off of biblical scriptures, right? These are two different views. We have a really interesting take on this. As Mormons, we believe in this thing called Adam and Diamond where God the Father comes back. It's fundamentalist. We understand that to be Adam, right?

1:45:41 Adam comes back, God the Father, and he gathers up all of the priesthood, all the authority of the world, and then he delivers it and coronates his Son, Jesus Christ. He hands the Kingdom over to Christ. We know when that happens. It happened to Adam on diamond. So I mean, Doug Wilson saying, well, that happened at the resurrection, right? But we actually, we know when this happened. It is a future event. And the reason this is important is because if that's a future event, then right now, right, so to speak, Lucifer, Satan is the God of this world. And if he's the God of this world, how are we going to get to a post millennial utopia?

1:46:30 Few years back I started to get the feeling that we, as fundamentalists and orthodox Mormons, we need our own stuff. Up to now, we've been able to buy and purchase all of our scriptures, books, art and music from other restoration organizations and that's been good. But there's no guarantee it's going to remain that way. Also, it can be a bit tricky as you scour the Internet trying to find all the books from your favorite fundamentalist or orthodox Mormon authors. As I thought about this, I feel like I was really given a solution now through the hard work of others, because let's face it, I'm the guy least qualified in all the world to build a website. I'm happy to present to you 1830 mercantile.org.

1:47:10 Right now on the website you can see that we have all the books that have ever been written by 4 authors, including names like Drew, Briny and Ogdenkraut. Also very soon there will be a link to buy art and music all produced by Mormons with a deep love for the restored gospel. There's also places for you to get free resources where you can find podcasts, videos, classes, and other presentations. Also coming very soon there will be a place for events where you can list the events from your organization so that you can get the most out of that attendance. Now this can be as big as you want it to be. It's all up to you guys out there if you want to buy and post things on here. Now, if you're someone who produces something that you feel like others can benefit from, 1830 Mercantile is a place where you can make all of those products available for purchase. All you need to do is drop me an e-mail at mormonrenegade@gmail.com and put 1830 in in the title of that e-mail with a short message and either myself or someone else from the 1830 Mercantile team will reach out to you so we can get your product up there on the site. Now to make sure that all the products that we offer are affordable and to ensure that the vast majority of the profits go to the producer, the website percentage is only three to 4% of the total cost.

1:48:32 And that's just so I can pay the pros that have created this website and keep the lights on the website itself. Finally, by making some of your purchases at 1830 mercantile.org, you'll be supporting folks whose principles and morals are close, if not the same as yours. At the same time not giving your money away to people who stand against everything you stand for. So no matter if you're looking to make a purchase or you're a seller that wants to get your products listed, head on over to 1830 mercantile.org today. Drop me an e-mail and we'll make sure that we get back out to you. Now back to the show. Right? I see the. I see the rub. You see the rub? Yeah.

1:49:14 And it ties in directly too, with, and I think that there might be another clip that covers this, but it ties directly into the temptations of Christ because what does Lucifer, or does it say Satan? I don't remember whatever the term is right, what does Satan tempt Christ with that third time? It was control over the world, right? It was all. These kingdoms are yours all. These kingdoms, I'll give you all of these. Now, as Mormons, we understand that to be a legitimate offer, right? Because Christ is made king of kings, He is coronated at Adamandayaman, but prior to that, from the Garden of Eden.

1:50:02 Because of the fall, because of this fall, we're in Until Satan is bound, He is allowed. He's the one running rampant in the world. Gotcha. And so right, so anyway, if basically what Satan's tempting Christ with right there is Christian nationalism, I will give you the Kingdom right now. I will give you the kingdoms right now. What would Christ do with Christian nationalism? Yeah. Kind of scary, right? What was Satan's plan again? We're going to coerce everybody to be righteous.

1:50:43 Everyone's going to make it because no one's going to have a choice. Right. What I mean man, Christ would be able to pull that off if he took Satan up on that offer. I think he could have pulled that off, but he would have become Satan in that process 100%. So again, here's Satan offering Christian nationalism to Christ, and Christ refuses the offer because he knows his Father will deliver the Kingdom to him in due time. Yes. But not before. That Jesus is the first born from among the dead. The next verse in Psalm 2 is Ask of me, and I'll make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession so. Praise God that's happening.

1:51:31 Yeah, that. Oh, that. Praise that we're we're doing that so. But this is the point. It's happening now. It has happened, it is happening, and it will happen manifestly at the 7th trumpet, OK. Right, so it's getting a little bit late and a little bit long. I want to get to the real big issue. OK. And so I'm going to, this is a bit of a long clip, but I think it's it's worth going into this will be the last one and then maybe we wrap. Up, I think. I think post millennialism is not honest because, well, let me just quote James White here.

1:52:19 He's kind of fun. So James White's a Christian nationalist on Twitter, so he's going to quote this well known Christian nationalist pastor. What is the greatest enemy I could ever conceive of that needs to be crushed under the feet of Christ? Oops, lost that. That's a good question, right? What is what? What do you think, Dave? What do you think the greatest enemy that needs to be crushed under the heel of Christ is? Oh, I'd say Lucifer. I mean, there's direct, there's direct reference to crushing the head in Genesis, right?

1:53:01 Right. Yeah, right. And that basically and that it's specifically what is what is Lucifer? He, he is sin and death. Yep. What is the greatest enemy I could ever conceive of that needs to be crushed under the feet of Christ? Great question, James. Maybe you'll invite me on the dividing line so we can debate this. We can. Try to arrange it. Are you kidding? You ready for the answer? The secular state? No. OK, we're talking about a different gospel at this point, right?

1:53:42 Yeah. What is the enemy what is the what is the enemy What is it that Christ overcomes through the atonement and resurrection. He liberates us from sin and from death. It's very simple. This is gospel basics one O 1 right and this is even gospel basics that we're in generally perfect alignment with Protestant sin. They also believe that Christ conquered sin and death, that that's what that's why he came. That's what it was all about. He wasn't here as a political savior. He was here to conquer sin and death. What that, what that preacher just was quoted saying was no, no, no.

1:54:25 The enemy that Christ needed to come to conquer is the unchristian state, the secular state, the government that Christ did not control. I mean, this is, we're going, we're going back to, to this is like Christian Judaism, right? We're going back to a, a savior who doesn't save us from sin and death. It's a savior who saves us from the from the evil government. What we're going back to, if we follow this out, is the 100 Years War. Right. That's what it is and for, and for those who don't know what that is, I encourage you to go do some looking because it should both serve as a warning and kind of frighten you with where these guys are talking.

1:55:18 Right. That's an incredible rhetoric and terrible distortion of the gospel. Yeah, about as, as, as reversed from the gospel as you can get. And he knows that, right. The guy on the right there, that's why he's so shocked. He's I can't believe. I can't believe your guy just said this. What about? Stephen Wilson. Has to say about this. Same thing. No, it's not the same thing. That is not the. Did you hear what he said? What about sin and death? Same thing, no. Same thing. Same thing. What about sin and death? I thought Christ came to conquer sin and death, not to liberate us from the Romans. Same.

1:55:59 Thing. Great response, right? Really sticks to landing. No, it's not the same. That is not the same thing. The nations, I want to remind you, Doug, are a drop in the bucket. What has happened to James White to come to that kind of conclusion like that? That is really concerning to me. That took my breath away to say that. And he said it with you because I, I watched that, that thing that is alarming. To pause that for just a second. That exactly proves the problem. That was the nicest way I've ever heard anyone say who hurt you, bro? What happened? What happened? What happened to James White? Who hurt you bro?

1:56:46 Yeah, yeah. Well, alright. Sorry, seeing James White on Twitter, I mean, he's a very, he's a very controversial Christian nationalist. Dude takes things a little more extreme than these guys. He is a great pessimist right now post millennialism has become very pessimistic until the 500 year plan unfolds. And I would say that the AW mill is inherently optimistic because he's saying there's nothing that is lacking in the glory of Christ's Kingdom. Even through suffering in the present, he is winning the victory. Jesus said so clearly when he said my Kingdom is not of this world, we would fight. But then he said, be of good cheer. When right now.

1:57:34 Do you believe the Kingdom of God grows? I mean, that was a great point where he went back to the eschatology stuff. We were talking about how it ends and the post Millennialists are very pessimistic right now. Why? Because they expect things to get better until Christ returns, that we get to a point where establish Zion, we'll look around, right? I'm not seeing it. And he's saying, like, I wish I could see that, but I don't see it. And so because things are getting worse and your eschatology says things are supposed to get better, right? People are getting a little desperate and that's what he's worried about. Yeah, this guy here that there that the camera's on right now, He's one of Doug's right hand men, right? Yep, Yep, that is Doug's.

1:58:20 Well, I won't say that. We all know what I was going to say. I knew what you were going to say. I know you do, all right. Yep, that's who that is. Yep. Sure, like a mustard seed. OK, so. But but you. But I like this. I'm like I'm with you. Through much tribulation we enter. Because we enter through tribulation does not make me pessimistic. I'm so sick of that. Second, second emotion, but particularly I. Desperately trying to agree with him, right? I'm just adding I'm putting a little. See my point, Jared? There's just there, you know, they've changed their dress.

1:59:01 They're, they're warriors. You know, they're, they're, they're tough guys. They're out there, they're out there with the tats. You know, they're ready to show how tough they are because they got to take back the culture for Christ. They got to bring in this post millennial vision and they've riled everyone up. And I'm saying calm down, you guys. You know what, just take a chill pill. Now we're no, wait, wait, this is really important. Everybody's already riled up all No, I'm, I'm a. Very optimistic on Mill. Yeah, yeah. Peace. Like a river. Out there, out there in the countryside, the thing that riled everybody up was the behavior of the secular state. It wasn't because I've I've got people.

1:59:42 Yeah, but I expect. That so why but the point the people who got riled up weren't expecting it because they believed the myth of neutrality. They believed it was possible for us to go cruise down the road at on autopilot and everything's decent and orderly because this is America when the. Van Till uses the phrase epistemological self consciousness. When the when the bad guys started to become sort of self aware of their lust for power and they started to reach for everything, demanding to control everything, they started they started doing things like the sex change and homosexual marriage and. Let me ask you a quick question, because he's basically saying at some point the bad guys figured out that in a pluralistic government, a pluralistic society, all they've got to do is just take control and rule and reign. Is that what we did?

2:00:41 The bad guys just show up five years ago? Is that when the bad guys showed up? No. And, and look, I'm about to, I'm about to say some stuff here that again, probably isn't going to land real well with a lot of people. But you know who put those bad guys in power? We all did. We all took the vote. We all did, right? And so this is the part that I find extremely arrogant, right? And I'm going to paint a paint a picture here because I think I think both of these things are true at the same time. It's the same principle at work, different environments. When the healthcare debate was raging back in Obama's first term, they asked Nancy Pelosi, isn't it clear that the American people don't want this bill?

2:01:35 And she said, we're going to get this bill. If we have to go over the wall, we'll go over it. If we got to go under it, we'll dig a hole. If we got to go through it, we'll build a bomb. If we got to go around it, we'll do that. But one way or another, this is coming. We know better than you. This are Christian nationalists saying we know better than you, sit down, shut up, we will set the agenda, you will be happy when we get to the destination. It is the same arrogance, different environment. Right. So let's be clear. Things are bad. But why are they bad?

2:02:17 They're bad because we let them cheat. We let them violate the Constitution. 100%. Therefore, the answer is we violate the Constitution harder or or maybe we can go back to pluralism. Maybe we can go back to we're going to agree to disagree and you can do drag time story hour in your house for your boyfriend, but you're not doing it the public schools because that's indecent behavior, not because we're against your religion, but because that is indecent to do before children.

2:03:02 And look, let's just be clear, you're not advocating for drag time story hour, even in a home in Zion, right? There will be a, there will be a standard that people will have to kind of walk up to a little bit, right? But it will be a standard that all can meet, no matter what religion you're in. Fair assessment. For the most part, yeah. Maybe not the not the satanic virtual abusers, but. No, no, no. That, that, that. Goes out right, obviously, but it was the definition that Brigham Young gave right at the very end. He's like, what is the principle that qualifies you to be a citizen of Zion? You were going to let your You're not going to harm your neighbor. You're going to bow the need of Christ. You're going to bow the need of Christ. You're not going to harm your neighbor. Perfect.

2:03:50 That's not happening right now, right? We, we watched, we watched a lower lowercase P prophet assassinated in Utah. We've seen immigration crisis, crime running rampant. We find people going to prison for praying in front of abortion centers. And then we're finding we're having these murderers and and and rapists going free with, with narrative slap on the wrist. The system is falling apart, but it's not falling apart because of pluralism. It's falling apart because one religion, this woke left religion, has overstepped the bounds of the covenant.

2:04:39 They are violating the constitutional law. The solution is to pull them back down, to reinstate the Constitution as the standard, the constitution that guarantees that we can all share this nation and worship according to the dictates of our conscience. The answer is not to out tyrannize the left. Right. 100% dude. Well said. So it's a false dichotomy, right? All of the things and a lot of ordinary folks who were not really steeped in theology got freaked out. I'm not freaking them out.

2:05:28 I I don't. Know I'm I'm having, I'm having people who get freaked out out there and who are attracted to what we're saying because what we're saying is a, believe it or not is a calming influence. Go out there and reclaim this country politically Not, not, not morally, not spiritually, politically, temporally. Does that sound like putting people at ease? No. And, and I think this is something that that deserves a little bit of analysis here because he's not putting people at ease, he's giving people a target. Yeah. And both things like if you can, if you can show people the target, well, yeah, all of a sudden they're no longer freaking out because they're they're planning their move, right?

2:06:22 You've now given them direction, and so don't. They've been. Promised. They've been promised a hoax. Right. Don't hate. Rise up, rise up. And if we did, if we abolish that First Amendment, we can make this country Christian again. Yep, Yep. Don't confuse calm with determination, because I think that's what Wilson and guys, other Christian nationalists have done. They took people freaked out. And I get being freaked out, right? I I understand it, but they've taken people in a vulnerable state and all they've done is pointed them towards their their enemy.

2:07:13 Their enemies, yeah. It's no different. It's it's no different than what happened in World War 2. Germany. It's their fault. Get them. Yep, that's right. I think. I think so. So this is This is why this mattered. I'll get to that once this clip's done right. God is in control. So guy, I appreciate your saying that, but on the ground I just, I just different totally disagree. That is not what this has created. I, I think it's, I think it's created people who've lost their minds in this stuff.

2:07:54 I said it before, but calm down. It's OK. Jesus is on the throne. Jesus is Lord, you, you, you know he is Lord, not you know he is Lord even when it's not going well for you. He is Lord. Even when you have abusive taxation, He is Lord. Even when you're being pummeled, he is Lord. You know, that's the kind of thing I think you need to calm the sheep with. Jesus loves his sheep. Christ has died for his sheep. Not one will be plucked from his hand. Not one will be lost. The governing authorities can't harm them. Not one hair from their head. Head can fall without the will of the Father in heaven. These are the kind of messages we need. What what I feel like we don't need right now is people saying go and exert and take back the square because it's yours. But what I want to point out is the people you're worried about that are setting their hair on fire, they're not setting their hair on fire because they believe God has promised them. They want America or they're going to. Yeah, yeah.

2:08:49 But but they're not actually trusting the Lord for America. The people that are setting their hair on fire aren't doing it. What we're doing is really going Yes, guys, God has promised us. Here we have no continuing city. We have to like, say that to. Ourselves, let me let. Me. Just make sure everyone hears that here we have no continuing city. We are not saving the city. The city will be burned just as it was in the days of Noah. Yeah, yeah. I think again, a really good point here, right? This false hope that's being promised, this idea that if we, if we rise up and we exert our force, if we try to play by their tactics and, and subvert the Constitution, we're going to, we're going to get this utopia.

2:09:42 And that's what we need. We can't be happy without this. We can't, we can't be Christians without this. Our faith is incomplete without this. That's that's a very dangerous gospel, right? And it's very different from the gospel that. 100%. That Christ is teaching here and he's kind of trying to excuse away, but his point is, is that we're not here to save nations, we're here to save people. You know, Jefferson had an interesting quote too, which was he was he was he was talking to somebody about an issue and he said, I stop and tremble when I know that my God is both just and merciful because unlike people, nations have to pay for their sins in this life because nations don't exist on the other side.

2:10:43 And I think that this is an illusion to what this other guy is saying here, this other pastor to to Wilson, which is I, I don't care about the nations. We care about people, right? Care about people. And at certainly God cares about Zion, but Zion is a people that has been prepared to live in that society, or at least the nucleus of Zion, right? Right. To build it and fling open its doors when these times come. And that is a key component there I think that that we can't escape.

2:11:27 Yeah, the the, the, the Zion air quotes that this guy is arguing for is the antithesis of the Zion that that we understand as Mormons. Yep, absolutely. It's the antithesis. And so clearly, God not only doesn't want the salvation of of this false Zion, it's not even Zion. Right. So it's not continuing, but it will be. It will be redeemed and then it will be, then it will. Die and rise again. OK, I've got to jump in here. I I happen to bring a copy of the Westminster Confession faith. It obligates me to want to ask for America. OK, OK.

2:12:07 So he's saying his faith requires him to ask God to demand that God give him America. Give me America for my for my Holy Land. He's a nursing father, right? That's what it says. I want the civil government to provide the protection, justice, those things that are good so that the church continue to do her work. But I pray for and this is this is where I think the Matthew 28 thing comes here. I think, I think you when you when you say nations, I didn't want to get here yet. I know our time's getting short. When you say nations, I'm not understanding it the same way you are. That's part of the issue.

2:12:51 I just say. So what he refers to by nations is the a lot of the Christian nationalists refer to the Great Commission as justification. This is God commanding us to to make Christian nationalists happen. Christian nationalism happen because Christ says go and disciple the nations. And they're like, oh, disciple of the nations? In other words, make disciples out of the nations. In other words, make the political organizations of the world explicitly Christian. Would that make sense? Yes, but that is a stupid reading of that scripture because. Absolutely is right. Because what, what he's mean by nations is all peoples, right, Individual, right, Yeah.

2:13:36 Yeah, I know. I I was talking about this with Joshua Erickson, who knows Hebrew better than I do. And I'm like, if he, if Christ were saying this Great Commission in Hebrew, what would he be saying? Go and make disciples of the goyim. Uh huh. Gotcha. Right. These are peoples, these are communities. But the, the, But he's not talking about the political structures. That is not what the word meant back then. Gotcha. All the people, however, they're groups. People groups, people groups out of every tribe, tongue, people and nation. Because those nations are going to be judged on the last. It doesn't say out of it says disciple the nation. So, so but it doesn't Revelation and and it does say in revelation they they're called from out of every tribe tongue people. And it says, Doug that those nations will be judged. How if all the nations were saved before Christ came to or bowed to knee and were saved, why are they going to be judged? Revelation.

2:14:33 Because Paul says in Corinthians it will all appear before the judgement seat of Christ. I mean, that was a pretty good question, right? If if Christian. Nationalism. Is true. If Christian nationalism is God's plan, and we're going to go and we're going to make every country in this world a Christian nationalist country, then why is why does Revelation say God's going to judge the world when he comes back? Right, because if the Christian nationalists are successful, well, there's no need to judge the nations. No, we have heaven on earth. Yep. We're there. We've arrived. We arrived without him. And so Doug was just saying because I pause, I didn't quite pause it fast enough.

2:15:15 Doug was saying, well, Judge, everybody's judged right. We all will stand before the judgement bar of Christ whether we are good or bad, no? No, no, not, not, not in the sense of revelations talking. Revelations talking about the finality of wrath. The bowls of wrath, the the the the the crushing. Before, but maybe a question, I just have a question for you. As you brought this up, you believe that this with Westman? Now this was fascinating, right? Because he just was like, no, that is not what it means in context. This is not judgement as in, you know, receive your justice for your works, for your life. Whether you know no, this is judgement as in wrath of God. You know dogs and cats living together.

2:15:55 Did you do this is Ghostbusters? Yes, this is Ghostbusters level apocalypse, right? This is the Book of Revelation. When God's judging the nations in the book of Revelations, he's not saying, all right, America, were you a good boy or a bad boy? Right. The judgement described in Revelation is coming back and saying y'all in trouble. I'm getting the belt. Yep. So he he he just completely dismantled their the argument that he was making about the Gentiles discipling the nation's being a call to go out and and create Christian nationalist countries.

2:16:39 And he just immediately interjects with kind of like this completely moot point, rather than being like, Oh, well, that maybe you're right there. You just kind of neatly like, let's just change the topic. So you believe that the civil magistrate has the duty of protecting the church? I believe it has the the responsibility to pro to promote justice and to protect it from lawless aggression so that the church in her sphere right I'm I'm a sphere sovereignty guy in her sphere should be left to do her work. Isn't that interesting, right? This is this is. He sounds a lot like Benson right here. This sounds very much like this.

2:17:19 What is the role of government? To protect rights? Why? So that the church can do its job. Yep. Yep, simple as that. Was the role of government protect rights? An unimpeded, uninhanded. And do you believe the civil mastery has enough, has the responsibility before God to protect the church in a way it doesn't have that responsibility to protect a mosque or a Buddhist temple? That's an interesting question. That's a really interesting question. Why wouldn't it? Why not? Why would so? So like if you burn down a church, you go to jail for arson, but if you burn down a mosque, you don't go to jail for arson.

2:18:03 Is that what he's asking? Why would you ask? Why would you ask such a thing? Right. It blew me away when I heard him saying this. I'm like, am I? Am I hearing correctly? But no, he repeats it. I the yeah, I'm, I'm, I like our system here in the United States. I I. This is where that's not here, that's not the system that they were representing in the Westminster. Right. But the 1788, I mean, Deyoung just made a point on this, right? In his article he just made a big point that they're two radically different opposed views. Well, no, but I'm just going with the American version. It says you're supposed to protect the church, but it does. Of our common in America. Of our common Lord. Right. But if you read, if you read it carefully and all those who practice whatever, yeah, it goes on to say something like that.

2:18:46 But it's not talking about Islam or Buddhism. Yeah, I believe in the same way to maintain justice, to maintain the peace and protection, to not let mosque be attacked, They need to, they need to protect that, those people too. So they're not. You don't think the civil magistrate has any obligation to protect the church in a distinct way over against any other religion? Yeah, I mean. I mean, isn't that the exact opposite we just read in DNC 32, right? What do we? Believe 100% and Justin I I just thought of analogy an analogy here as I was listening to this. Do you know what the Constitution is and the First Amendment is it is the referee in a football game or any game, OK, it's going to set the rules while the two opponents, which are different ideas battle it out on the battlefield of ideas and the rules that that the constitution is there.

2:19:40 The 1st Amendment is there to say all these things are legal, but you get violent, you're out of bounds, right? And that's a penalty. But don't you think that the players you don't like should, you know, have their legs broken before the match? Oh, you know, I guess if it's a basketball game, we can go ahead and hobble Shaq. We can, you know, because it's not fair that he's, you know, well. No, I mean, Shaq's on my team. Shaq's on my team. No way. No, no, Shaq's on my team. No, we got a, it's Michael Jordan. We got a Shaq. Right, right, right. And so, yeah, like ultimately another purpose of that First Amendment is so that ideas can clash in a peaceful way and then have the truthfulness be exposed through that conflict. And so if you're going to shortchange the game where you, you can't have an honest debate or conflict on these things, well then how do we, how do we get to the point to where we discover truth?

2:20:44 You are hobbling the very mechanism here. And The thing is, is that if they get their way, they will define what truth is, not letting the ideas play it out. OK, I like that analogy, but let's be honest here, right? What he's really saying is I don't have faith in my team, therefore I need the other team handicapped. If Islam, if we couldn't burn down Islamic mosques, the Islam might win the hearts and minds of the people. Right. I mean, it really shows the lack of of faith that this Christian nationalist worldview places.

2:21:27 It basically says we cannot win in a free market of ideas and therefore we need to take control. Yep. People wouldn't choose Christ unless the government's going to make them behave as Christ wants anyways, so then they might as well. Yep. It's it's it's they're showing lack of faith in their play. And who's their player? Their player is Jesus Christ. Yeah. Jesus, Jesus Christ and Muhammad, who's going to win this? Well, I think we need to throw out the referee because we need Muhammad hobbled for the man that's. What he's arguing.

2:22:08 For that's kind of what he's arguing, isn't it? It's kind of a defeatist attitude in my opinion It. Is religious socialism The government will decide the winners and losers. Yeah, Yep. This is this is what I was making the point with earlier. I got the Buddhist, Buddhist, Buddhist temple right here. What? What do I want the government, Jared, to do for us, right, that it doesn't do for them in terms of in its main responsibility. I'm not talking about advancing generally morality. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the main responsibility of protecting so that we have an environment to be left free to do our work.

2:22:49 What are you asking? Well, if they protect the church, you're protecting truth. If they protect Islam, they're protecting the law. This this gets back to Calvin who talks about the moral law of God is that which is in natural law. Basically he says that and that that is that is the principles of the way the government it. It maintains in the second table that we're not lawlessly killing our neighbor that that we're not doing those things that are harmful to our neighbor. I want that protected, yes. But Islam teaches things that are harmful to our neighbor. Right. And that's why I don't want religion in the public sphere. If they're doing things that are against the law, they need to be dealt with.

2:23:29 Yeah, we're we're. We need to. That's interesting. That's good to know. That's what kind of I think that is one of the key things. Anyway, so this is this is the tame version of Christian nationalism, right? This is Doug Wilson and his little boy pastor who follows him around. That's that's their worldview. And I I don't think it fits with Mormonism and it doesn't get any better from there. No, it it gets significantly worse.

2:24:11 So these are real quick. These are just kind of I, I want to show you what some, this is the, the Joel Webbin that you you talked about earlier. These are they're working on a documentary on explaining Christian nationalism. Oh, good. So here's some clips from the upcoming documentary. Want to have a Christian culture anywhere? We want secularism instead. Americans understood their nation to be a Christian nation, and that is despite the fact that there's no mention, explicit mention of Christ in the Constitution of preamble. And yeah, it was just commonly understood.

2:24:55 Freedom of religion is, in all intents purposes, a really bad idea. I don't want freedom of religion because I don't think Jesus wants freedom of religion. No, he kind of does. He kind of does. This hasn't at all been what I expected. We Can't Sing God Bless America and at the same time expect that God won't curse America for the permission of allowing other people to worship gods on our soil. In the United States, it's it's our, it's the great evil of our day. And so to to stop murdering little babies will have ineffable impact, I think.

2:25:37 Hey I agree, not murdering little babies will have ineffable impact. What does that have to do with Christian nationalism? Did we? Did we murder babies in in 1776? No. Did we have freedom of did we have? Did we not enshrine the First Amendment though? In fact, let me back that up, because what they're contending here is that the Constitution doesn't go far enough. Yeah, the towers had lost tonics, those colonies. Instead, if a woman was to do anything knowingly that would harm her child once the quickening had happened, she could be brought up for murder. Right.

2:26:23 So this stuff was already there, right? If you want to get rid of if, if you want to be done with this, let's go back to those original principles. Let's go study what the pilgrims had to say, what the founders had to say. Let's study what Joseph and Brigham has to say about Zion and about the role of government. Let's start there. Isn't the First Amendment we all have a right to murder babies, and that's why we've got to abolish? No, it is not actually. Oh, OK, I'm getting the really wrong impression here. Some reason, I don't know why. I kind of got the impression that they're like, we've got to abolish freedom of religion in America, which is the First Amendment, because it prescribes murdering babies.

2:27:08 It doesn't, though. OK, OK. Conservatives, Christians, we have historically been really good at talking and we have been less good at acting. We've been less good at building political coalition, at supporting Christian candidates and putting them forward. But the will to power is the only true prerequisite for change. All throughout history, change has occurred in biblical times, in church history, gospel age times. Over the last 2000 years, we have case after case after case of radical political and cultural change for entire swaths of people, entire nations, that occurred with a remnant, a small but unified, deliberate strategic minority that had the will to power.

2:28:02 The Bolsheviks. Yep, the will of power Tell me, I just said. Tell me this isn't communism. Yeah. Well, actually, so that's the fascinating thing, right? He mentioned that twice. Will to power. The term comes from Nietzsche, and if people don't know who Nietzsche was, he is a self-proclaimed Antichrist. His philosophy is the father of of Freudian psychology, Darwinism and biology, just basically all of the really bad stuff. When the world kind of started falling apart in modern times, you know, Nietzsche is the philosophical father of all of that. Yep.

2:28:48 And he's talks about this will to power and as a, and, and he refers to it in the context of, as opposed to this idea of a will to survival, right? The other philosophers talk about like, there's we human beings, we animals and we all, there's an instinctual desire to survive, right? And Nietzsche's taking that a little further and saying actually, it's not just to survive. There's not this instinct. No, no, there's a there's this instinct, will to power to well, coercion, control. It's he's describing the natural man.

2:29:31 Well, yeah, will to power is the natural man, says the Antichrist, self-proclaimed Antichrist Nietzsche. And here we've got Christian nationalism quoting. You know how else was a big fan of that phrase? Will to power. The Nazis. Triumph of the will? I guess so. Triumph of the will, yeah. That's, that's exactly, that's how, that is exactly how Hitler understood that Nietzschean phrase. And that, yeah, that is a reference to the Nietzschean phrase right there. Because Nazis say, hey, you know what? If we can, if we're we're in the right, we know we're in the right. There should be no other opposition to us. Let's just go in there and take power, if we will it, we can have it.

2:30:21 And I, I mean, OK, we all know about Nick Fuentes, right? I think most people probably heard about this point because he was on Tucker Carlson and there's that huge debacle. He's another, he's at the probably the other extreme end of Christian nationalism, right? He's self-proclaimed in cell and and a huge, huge fan of of of of Hitler. Yes. But there is a running thread of anti-Semitism throughout all of this. Christian nationalism as well. Which is so fascinating because it's not just now either. This was a thing back then, way back in the day during the Holy Roman Empire, right?

2:31:08 You, you, one of the things you're you can get burned at the stake for is being a Judaizer. What's it who's a Judaizer? Anybody who believes there's any legitimacy at all whatsoever with anything Old Testament. So if you're like, hey, you know, that I kind of like, you know, I kind of like this story here in, in Ruth Judaizer, Burnham, there is this weird, weird preoccupation with the Jews and Christian nationalism. And I was really pondering why, why I was so concerned about this topic in the 1st place to want to be able to come on the podcast and discuss it because I honestly don't think Christian nationalism is going anywhere. This is a dead end.

2:31:58 I I agree with that one pastor, this is a pipe dream. It's not going to happen. They're not going to if they try to do it communist style, right, they're going to get shut down. You think the January and you think the January 6th backlash on conservatives was bad. Wait'll you see the backlash these guys are going to cause upon Christians if they, if they try, if they go the communist route, if they try to do the coup, what they're talking about right here in this video, basically, if they actually try and do that, the world is going to turn on Christianity and say this is a problem, it's got to be stopped. These guys are out of control.

2:32:38 They're radicals and they would be right about those ones. But it's going to apply to all of us, right? The other issue here is I think that this is actually even if it doesn't go anywhere, this worldview is damning. Right. And that's really the heart of, of the, of the issue here. What kind of person are you now? What kind of person are you going to be in five years drinking Christian nationalism? You won't, you will not be able to recognize yourself. I, I, I guarantee it.

2:33:20 I mean, if you're really buying into this stuff. So here's the, here's the, here's the deal, right? The Christian nationalism breeds it. It's, it's, it's, it's emotionally founded upon fear. These guys aren't going out there saying, Hey, you know, come what may, I'm going to, I'm me in my house. We, we follow Christ. These guys are like, we cannot be Christians. We cannot live our faith if we have persecution and opposition. What has Christ promised us?

2:34:00 He's promised us position. Yep, that's that's our lot in life. But we can find joy even in that, right? Right. Exactly. But what if you build up your faith around this idea that that is a problem, That is the, the, the bad things are happening because we don't have this Christian nationalism, Christian nationalist utopia. We don't have this Zion. Then then you've kind of built your faith around a false premise and it will come crashing down around your head. Yeah, exactly. It makes your heart brittle. And when pressure squeezes on that thing, it's going to shatter. And it also, it creates this need for fault with the other because if, if something bad happens, if, if, if, if there's a miscarriage in my family, right?

2:34:52 It's God's judgement because we're living in a wicked nation that allows abortion. It's their fault my wife had a miscarriage. It wasn't. It wasn't God allowing me to be tried and tested to see if if I love Him, if and if I will do all things whatsoever He commandeth me, even in the in the midst of of pain and suffering, right. It's now that person's fault. And we're living in a world right now that is going downhill. The, the tribulations and trials have hardly even just begun. And if when you experience tribulation, you immediately think it's that person's fault, you are going to become filled with hate and rage, right?

2:35:45 You're, you're going to spiral because the, the pressures are going to keep coming. That's, that's, that's why we're here to be tried and tested that that's the feature. That's not a defect. And if you think that means things are broken and you've got to take control, as that pressure builds, people are going to start snapping, they're going to snap. And for whatever reason, right? I don't, I don't quite get it. But right now it's, it seems to be directed to the Jews. That's Fuentes, Candace Owens, all these, all these well known Christian nationalists, even these guys right have this kind of secret anti-Semitic reference right there in there or the Nazi reference, which is in itself inherently anti-Semitic right reference hidden right there in the video. And so my, my concern is that it's not that you're going to join Christian nationalism and, and you're going to succeed in creating a Christian nationalist society. And then we're going to live under that. And that's going to be wrong.

2:36:51 My concern is, is that this is a, this is a false gospel. This is a false, a false gospel. And the, the ultimate conclusion of, of, of buying into these ideas that they're selling is going to be nothing but disappointment. Oh, that's where it's got it, yeah. I mean, that's going to be in disappointment. Yep. And that's where you lose faith. That's that's where hope fails. That's that, that isn't the message of the Gospel. It's not the message of Christ. We don't, we don't need that. And I, and I want to say as, as, as as Mormons, we don't need Christian nationalism to establish Zion. No.

2:37:39 Zion starts in the heart. It starts with us in our heart. If you have a heart that wants to play victim and blame others for the hardships that that Christ has called you to take, how can you have a pure heart? How can we establish Zion? These guys think that they're all going to get along. I did have an opportunity to clip this one, but one of the arguments was that, hey, Christian nationalism is going to work and we're all as Protestants, we're all going to get along in the Christian nationalist utopia. And for proof of that, he says, well, you can see, you know, in the early in the early days of America, in the in the Puritans days, in The Pioneers times, we started getting along.

2:38:24 All of a sudden we stopped killing each other. Therefore, we can throw out the thing that caused us to stop killing each other, and we won't kill each other again. That's not true, though. Of course it's not true. It was it was true once once they got to America, but that was only true because they had they got had a written law that said you can't do that right. It wasn't working. They. Were separated. They were separated. They were separate colonies. They weren't living right next door to each other trying to share houses. And let's not forget the Church of England was a Protestant church.

2:39:07 Yeah. And they were killing other Protestants. So don't pretend like there was just this magical moment where you're all like, gosh, you're just like me. No, that didn't happen. It didn't happen until a people who'd been persecuted, some of them killed, came to America and went, yeah, that crap behind us that sucked. So let's go ahead and let's not do that again. That's the. Difference. That's the difference. The reason you could get along in America was because somebody had the guts to sit down and write it out. Like, don't kill your neighbor over religious disagreements.

2:39:51 That was the difference. They had nothing. To do throw that away. If we throw that away, even the Protestants aren't going to get along. Yes, they're going to start killing each other again. Yes. Back to the 100 and us and everybody, right? Yeah, because ultimately, sticking the name Christian in front of an idea does not make it Christ's, right? Oh, 100%. Great, great. Line. And so, yeah, I guess that's really, that's just about it.

2:40:33 Again, this is very, it's a very liberal idea in the sense that to believe that we have evolved, Christianity has evolved, we aren't the same people our fathers were. If we had the power, if I was, if I was the Pope, if I was the emperor, if I was the governor and I had that power and we didn't have to respect people we could kill people for for worshipping other gods on our soil, that we wouldn't devolve into a bloodbath is asinine. Yeah.

2:41:14 You believe in a. 100% you believe in more levels, you don't. Believe in Christ, in the gospel, we don't, you don't believe we're fallen and we need an atonement. You believe that we are evolving beings and we've evolved past that barbarism. And if we had tyrannical authority, we wouldn't abuse it. I I mean it goes back to the to the whole priesthood issue. Right. Christ tells us yes, how to exercise authority properly 100%. There is no Christian nationalism in how we're to exercise our priesthood. 100%, 100% You want to know how else I know they kill each other because they couldn't stand the thought of Joseph Smith being alive.

2:42:07 Proof is in the pudding. Yeah. 100% all right. Can you take? Are you done sharing now bro? I got one last funny thing to share. This is funny, OK, Yep, this is from that same thing. This is Joel Weapon from the same documentary. And I just thought this was hilarious. I just thought you want to see it. Oh, it's muted. Gay, fake, and gay to be more precise. Christianity is a feminized religion. What do you see as the greatest threat to Christian nationalism as it's as it's trying to make its roots? Christians.

2:42:50 Christians. Christians are the greatest threat to Christian nationalism. I think he's being honest, right? Christians and Mormons and everybody. Pretty much anybody, even the atheists. Even the atheists. But yes, Christians, actual Christians, are the enemy of Christian nationalism. But here's here's his opinion of Christians. How so? How so? Christians are gay. Christians are gay. To be more precise, Christianity is a feminized religion. Oh, OK. Wow. Wow, these guys aren't going to start killing themselves, right? Like if this guy was in charge he wouldn't start killing other Christians, right?

2:43:40 Just he's got clearly immense respect for his his brothers in Christ. No, no, I don't think he does. You don't think so? No. Yeah, so to sum up, this is the Ring of Power, right? The Lord of the Rings token, The Ring of power, this is the potential for tyranny. And you know, and throughout America, you know, George Washington turned that down. He threw that ring into the fiery pits so that we did, we could be a nation that we're going to self rule.

2:44:21 We're going to take responsibility for ourselves. And all of the problems that Christian nationalism claims it's going to solve, we can solve. If you don't want the schools indoctrinating your children and LGBTQ cultism, you can homeschool your children. This is an option, right? If you don't want, if you don't want abortion to be going on in this country, you can stand up and demand that your states because this has been, this has never been easier, right? Roe versus Wade got overturned.

2:45:05 That would almost give credence to the post millennial argument. Maybe we can get there. Maybe we are going to get there. And yet. And yet, what states have successfully executed a ban on abortion? None. They all, they all jumped on it. Well, not they'd all just a few, a few of our of the blue states jumped on it, right? And they all and they all fell apart. We're being sabotaged. We're deliberately being sabotaged, in my opinion. I I think that the the powers that be think that Christians are a bunch of fools. We're a bunch of idiots and they can dangle this idea of Christian nationalism in front of us to provoke us into crossing lines and destroying ourselves. And it it doesn't have to be that way. All of these problems we're seeing can be resolved through other means.

2:46:03 We don't have to throw out the 1st Amendment to end abortion. We don't have to throw out the 1st Amendment to stop transgender madness. We don't have to throw, just take your pick, right? We don't need to throw out the the 1st Amendment to to fix the economy. All of these things that are piling on it and are so burdensome. These you're these Christian nationalists are are are useful idiots. 100%. And they're just, they're trying to take us down. They're trying, trying to take, take down Christianity and, and our ability to actually fight back and resist the tyranny.

2:46:48 This is not the way we can be involved in politics. We can get involved in our schools, we can start voting for better people. And we can do all of that without Christian nationalism because this goes to a very, very dark place. And even again, even if we don't end up in this Christian nationalist utopian hellhole, in my opinion, at least if we're following Deuteronomy class as explicitly as they're talking about, right? Even if we don't end up there, we are weakening ourselves. And we're, we're, we're distracting ourselves from the things we could be doing, even from a purely clear, obvious direction of, well, how about we preach the gospel of Christ to people to, to convince them. Instead of focusing on trying to get Christians to be Christian nationalists, how about we focus on getting non Christians to become Christians?

2:47:49 100% that's that is where where we need to be. Couldn't agree with you more. So yeah, I guess I said my piece on the subject. So I got AI, got a couple things here. First and foremost, if you're a Mormon and you're flirting with this, just stop. You don't fit your your best case scenario if you were to line up and this stuff was even remotely successful, your best case scenario is you're in a useful idiot until they're done with you and then they'll turn on you. That's it. That's that's the hope that you will have there. Zion is not the same thing as a Christian nationalist America. That's been proven here tonight, right? The words of Joseph Smith on the matter, the words of Brigham Young on the matter do not match with the Christian nationalists have to say on it.

2:48:47 If you sign up for this, whether you are a Christian or a Mormon, at some point you will discredit yourself in the public square. You won't be ostracized. You will just relegate yourself, quite frankly, the dust men of history, and any good thing you have to say will fall on deaf ears because everyone's going to remember you wind up for this crap. It's simple as that. If you really want to make a change, Justin's laid out some really good ideas for you. Fix your eyes firmly upon Zion, as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young outlined it, and work towards that.

2:49:31 Don't work towards somebody else's false utopia. Go towards the one God gave you. Now, I've talked to Justin about this already. When I went back east this fall, I didn't realize what all was going to happen back there. And I told you when I did that little episode from that hotel room in Maine that I'm going to keep talking about Mormonism. It's, it's in my blood. I, I've got great things lined up for next year. We're going to do a series on the armor of God. We're going to do a series on the unpublished revelations. I got some stuff cooking.

2:50:23 And so we're already off and running in that direction. But there was more that had to be done. I think I've said it on this show a couple of times, but I'm going to say it again because I think it's worth repeating, especially in this conversation that we've just had. As the Law of Moses was to the higher law. I do believe the US Constitution is to to Zion. I just see too much Zion in the Constitution and too much Constitution and in Zion as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young waited out. But that means we got to get back to knowing it. We got to get back to understanding it, and we can't just take a cursory look and think it's enough. So with that starting on, let me make sure I get the date right. Starting on Monday, January 12th, 2026, 7:00 PM Central, I'm going to start putting on a class through the the the Mormon legacy ministries on this.

2:51:39 This book single handedly taught me civics and U.S. history and the principles of the constitution in a way no other book has. It was written by Royal, not Royal Skousen. Excuse me, Cleon Skousen. And it is such a good text when it comes to civics and understanding the Constitution and the principles of liberty that were laid out to us, gifted to us by God Almighty through some people who went through some horrific crap that Ronald Reagan said. I want this in every high school. So starting that day, once a week, we're going to go through this, this book, and it's going to be a lengthy class. It's going to be about 28 weeks long. There's 28 chapters in here.

2:52:30 And quite frankly, trying to put 2 chapters in one week just isn't going to work. It's it's formatted to have a discussion with, not me just lecturing. And this is available to everybody. There's no charge to this. I make no money off of this. This is just show up and, and get ready to participate and, and learn and enjoy this. So that again, that is Monday, January 12th, 7:00 PM Central. We're going to kick that off now. You will need to get a copy of the book one way or another. You can get this book through the the National Center for Constitutional Studies.

2:53:17 They're up there in Idaho. Just give them a call and they can get you a copy of the book and get off Amazon. You can get an audio version off of Audible. But one way or another, get the book and then come hang out with me for a couple hours, you know, an hour, hour and a half. Monday nights. Bring your kids. If you got 12 year old kids, plant their butts right there. And I will try to make it as entertaining and as fun, yet as informative as I possibly can. I feel this to my core. I think the answer to a lot of these problems we're facing in society now is just learning. And if you want to scare yourself, just do a search of what high schools in America are teaching civics. That should be enough to make your blood blood run cold. And that's not by mistake.

2:54:06 That is so that the powers that be can move things around without you knowing about it. So again, January 12th, Monday, 7:00 PM Central, the 5000 year leap. We'll go through it cover to cover the reading you'll have to do on your own at home. We'll, we'll pick out certain sections, but we're going to read it and then we're going to have a discussion about it and all are welcome. There's no limit, age limit really. A kid as young as 12 can get this book. And so that's, that's pretty much all I have to say on this. I feel like we've done a really good job here. Justin's done an excellent job of showing where the fallacies are and why this does not fit in Mormonism.

2:54:53 Stay as far away from it as you can if you're a Mormon because nothing good is going to come out of it. We have our own work to do. We're supposed to go go forward independently. So let's get back to that and let's stop worrying about what the Christian nationalists are going to be doing. Let's show a better way. Let's point everybody towards Christ in his Zion and leave the violence and the unequal treatment of our brothers and sisters of someone else. Justin, anything else you want to say before we wrap this up? We'll have the link to the registration for the for the class on the Mormon Legacy Ministries website, mormonlegacy.org.

2:55:37 Perfect. Awesome. Well, man, as always, great conversation, good stuff. Hang around for 5 minutes, all right? OK. All right. Bye everybody. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.