Episode #208 The First Vision W/Ken Peterson

0:26 The you're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Ken, how's it going, man? It's going very well, my friend. How are you doing? Good. How's how's life treating you? Everything going good with the family. Yes, you know, nice. It's one of those times where life is so good, you just, you wonder what's going to happen. You know, it's a little too good so. Dude, I hear you. No, I was feeling that today. Like I got a really good night's sleep last night. Hackers won the night before.

1:10 That's always a good thing. Victory Monday and then got up this morning. Like I got caught up at work, which was unusual, right? Not like to the point of caught up being without work, but like not completely slammed. Then I lifted some weights and then I ate a steak and now I get to talk to you. So it's a darn good day. Perfect day, perfect day. Dude. I am so glad you're here to talk about this because I'll tell you what, if there there are a couple of things that we as Mormons get beat up on a lot, right? One is the historicity of both the Book of Mormon and Abraham, right? A great price.

1:54 The other is, is just what we're going to talk about tonight, the first vision, right? And this is one of those things that people will come to, to to Mormons no matter where, where they're at, fundamentalist, mainstream, whatever. And they will, one of the first things they attack is the the accounts of the first vision because there's four in one, right? And you and I are guys that are like, look, the gospel is true. There's an explanation there's or we're missing something, right? And so I am so so excited for this one and thanks for doing it. Dave, I get to do all the fun ones. I'm so glad you we got to do this, you know, and as usual, the blessings belong to the person who gets to dive deep and prepare this stuff.

2:47 So I just, I've just been eating, drinking and sleeping. I mean, I've had this debate any number of times online and in person, but to have an opportunity to put it all together, to look at it a bird's eye view and have all of the sources at your fingertips, that's fantastic. Fantastic. So. Well, thanks for doing it because I, I, it is sorely needed. So I'm I'm ready to, I'm ready to go, bro I'm excited. So, yeah, and but those of you listening and not able to see the slides, I'm sorry. I'm going to talk a little bit about it because they're a lot of fun. You like that first slide?

3:30 Is it a little romanticized maybe? How does it differ from the tradition? Romanticized. I was just at the Sacred Grove a few weeks ago. It does not look like that. Here's the Here's what we're going to discuss just because it's, well, one of the one of the new things that occurred to me 1st, I'm going to do the the extremely short version of our discussion tonight. So online, an opponent of the restored gospel asks me the gotcha question, which one of the many different versions of Joseph Smith's vision do you believe, quote UN quote, like, oh, he, he has me now.

4:18 And my response is now all of them. And then I asked him the question, which of the gospel accounts of Jesus Christ do you believe? All of them. It's the same thing. And the notion that you can only have one identical account is actually contrary to historicity. In any case, the picture that we're looking at I generated with the AI, and I generated it using the description of the Sacred Grove given by the curator of Historical Sites for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

5:01 And this was new to me. It looks almost like fairy land. All right. OK. Most of the paintings that we see, let me go back here, most of the paintings that we see of the Sacred Grove are in very, very green, fully grown leaves and all that sort of stuff. That's what the Sacred Grove looks like in the summer. That's not when Joseph Smith went to the Sacred Grove. So get this description. This blew my mind. So this is Mark Staker. We don't know when early spring was for him. We have a kind of range.

5:53 But if you consider March and April and even well into almost the end of May, it's not green. The leaves come out toward the end of May, but before that. A lot of people started thinking of the Grove as being brown, but it wasn't brown either. In early spring, what you're going to have are blossoms. These trees are going to be full of blossoms. The Elm tree will have the purplish brown flowers. Hophorn Beam has these dangling bright cream colors. Cherry blossoms. Swipe the little tinge of pink on them and 100 feet of cherry blossoms. You can imagine this big white presence in the forest. Lots of color. The Beech trees, the blossoms are yellow, so you'll have areas of yellow.

6:36 And there was a lot of Beech trees on the property as well. So you're going to have a a whole have whole Groves of yellow out there. So when Joseph goes out to pray and you think a bit of brown, sure, but mostly color everywhere he's looking lots of bright colors of all these blossoms from these trees. Kind of makes you want to go out there in March, April and have a look. You know, right. I had AI generate with I I tweaked to the Sky's description just here and there have generated generated a couple of different views of what that might be. So those are those four types of trees going together and what their colors would look like during springtime in Palmyra near Palmyra, you.

7:22 Know something else? I was just thinking of one of the reasons that Joseph's father had such a rough time farming when he was up in Vermont was because of the volcano that went off. I was at Sumatra. Is that right, Ken? Was it Sumatra? I can't remember. I don't recall, but it was one of the Indonesian Asia Pacific volcanoes. Yeah, it was a super volcano, right? It caused all sorts of havoc with the growing seasons. And look, here's the other thing. We're making assumptions about a normal spring. We don't know if it's back to being normal weather patterns yet at this point, right? I forget the name of the winter that it was called. It's like the.

8:06 The Little Ice Age is what they called it. Or, or the year without a summer or something. It's very strange, yes. Yeah. So there's there's a couple factors there that just off the top of my head, I could think of that as we try to place ourselves in Joseph's shoes, we can look at what a normal spring looks like. But because gosh, that would have been probably, I'd have to go back and look at the dates. But I'm guessing that's probably less than a decade after Joseph's born. I mean, it takes a little while for that stuff to filter through. Yeah. Yeah, and it was, that's what I that's what I had a hand. And Joseph Smith senior having to move around as he did, he's been accused of being a lazy or a bad farmer, that sort of thing. But those circumstances and of course, in the destiny of God, those circumstances, what brought them not to Palmyra and to Hill Camara, the hill and the hill of records where he could find the cool place. So there are no accidents for God Anyway, I just this view of the I could only, and I tried.

9:09 Even when you go to the place, people are always asking where exactly did it happen? And nobody knows for sure. And in fact, they they believe there are three or four trees that currently exist in the Grove that they call witness trees that were there when the first vision supposedly happened. Is that something you'd consider to think about? So to set the stage we want to, I'd like to discuss the significance of the first vision. Wikipedia says secular scholars and non Mormons view the vision as a deliberate deception, a false memory, a delusion or hallucination, or some some combination of these. I get it, I get it.

10:01 So this is kind of what we're as believers. How do we explain why we believe to others? Richard Bushman in his preface to Rough Stone Rolling explained it this way. Everything about Joseph Smith matters to people who have built their lives on his teachings to protect their own deepest commitments. Believers want to shield their prophets reputation. On the other hand, people who have broken away from Mormonism and they produce a large amount of scholarship have to justify their decision to leave. They cannot countenance evidence of divine inspiration in his teachings without catching themselves in a disastrous error.

10:50 You know, that is a great point, that old adage about you can leave more, you can leave the church, but you can leave it alone. Yeah, right. I think there's a lot of truth to that. I And I think it's because, quite frankly, Mormonism makes promises that other religions just wouldn't dare. Right. Yeah. And if you're going to reject that, you almost have to constantly prove yourself right, or you're going to or, or, or you're going to constantly be in a state of, of kind of cognitive dissonance, for lack of a better term.

11:34 The other thing I'll say this, I've, I've always thought it funny that those people who scream the loudest about a certain topic, in this case, we'll use those folks who who kick against the gospel after they leave it. They don't do so because they're confident. They do so because they're not confident in what they've done. And the more people they can get to agree with them, the less crazy they sound. Right, though, the more they have to be right, the more that people agree with them. And I, I, I've often said that you got to be careful when you listen to someone who says that they're unbiased on this and they come from the religion because there's no such thing as unbiased, right? They're doing missionary work just like Mormons do missionary work.

12:20 They're trying to win people over to their side because they need it for validation. Yeah. Well, and I suppose in in a broader sense, everyone has to be able to justify their lives decisions for one way or another. But I understand that Neil L Anderson, the current apostle for the LDS Church, said on his first visit to Prophet Joseph Smith at age 17, an Angel called Joseph. Speaking of the Angel, on his first visit to the Prophet Joseph Smith at age 17, an Angel called Joseph by name and told him that he, Moroni, was a messenger sent from the presence of God and that God had to work for him to do. Imagine what Joseph must have fought when the Angel then told him that his name would be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.

13:23 As a 16 year old, I probably would have tried to run away. The good spoken of Joseph Smith came slowly. The evil speaking began immediately. While love for Joseph grew, so also did hostility. At the age of 38 he was murdered by a mob of 150 men with painted faces. Should we be surprised with the evil spoken against him? The Lord told Joseph of his destiny. Quote, The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in division, and hell shall Rage Against thee, while the pure in heart, the wise and the virtuous, shall seek blessings constantly from under thy hand. So we get the significance.

14:07 I. It's kind of a binary thing going on here, as we shall see. Do the ends of the Earth actually inquire after his name today in a collector's edition? This is, I'm going to shut my phone off because everybody wants to talk to me right when I'm busy with Dave. That's better. In the collector's edition. Smithsonian Magazine, highlighting the 100 most significant Americans of all time was in 20/14/2015 Mccattering category of religious figures who was #1. Joseph Smith occupies the top spot in a listing of 11 historical influential personalities in the 14 years he Joseph led the church, Smith created a religious culture that survived his death, survived his death, flourished in the most desolate regions of the United States, and continues to grow worldwide. That's all an understatement.

15:07 I've tried to, I've pondered this subject to think in terms of my understanding of human history. If there is any other movement, political or religious or otherwise, that can compare with the rapid, peaceful growth of the Church of Jesus Christ, of that Mormon, of the of the Restoration, we'll call it for all of our listeners. It's unprecedented in a matter of 200 years. You know, the, the thing, I remember one of the things, and this was after I became a Mormon, I was probably in my mid 20s. So I'd probably been in the faith about six years at that point.

15:57 And I remember I was reading on, I was in college and I had taken a course on on religious systems, right? And I thought, oh, this will be cool because I'll learn about different religions. Well, that's not what it was. It was actually deconstructing all religion, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and one of the things that I remember them saying is that you can always spot the ones that weren't legit, is what he said, because he said the ones who are built solely on a cult of personality. Once that leader leaves it, it Withers and dies, right.

16:39 And so that got me thinking, OK, the fact that that Brigham is like in some ways the opposite of Joseph Smith in a lot of ways, right? Joseph's very good at being able to rally the the group with just, you know, kind of come on everybody, we're going to get to work and it's going to be great. And this Brigham's more like, get your butt in the back of the wagon. I don't want to hear anything till we get to Utah, right? Like, don't make me turn this wagon train around kind of a thing, right? But it still survives and thrives no matter who's at the helm. That is a testimony of something that has divinity written all over it to have two guys whose personalities are that different be able to.

17:26 Well, so different than one's wife doesn't like him, you know? Right. Yeah. Yep. That's pretty. That's pretty. No. It's it's true. I have to. I was we were talking earlier and this last weekend I had some work to do. I was running up Choral Workshop in Elko, NV. So within a 36 hour period I drove from St. George, UT, as far South as you can get in Utah, length and breadth of Utah, all while contemplating this topic. And here I am rolling along I-15 and I-80, seeing every single bit of civilization that is along, which is along that way, which is considerable, and realizing it's there because of the first vision.

18:19 So when we talk about the significance of it, and that's just, that's just Utah. There are more Mormons outside of the United States than there are in the United States today, right? Just to give us some just talking about the significance of this first vision. And if I were the devil, I would most definitely try and go after it and poke holes in it and destroy people's faith over it. Oh, yeah. If you can destroy the point of beginning, you're, you're completely lost. There's no basis of bearing after that point. You're you're, you're off the reservation, so to speak at that point. So persecuted and beaten with numerous attempts on his life and the lives of his followers, his friends and his own family. Which by the way, I think was unquestionably the hardest thing for Joseph Smith.

19:09 For him to undergo the the trials and the beatings and the time 15 was one thing, but to know that his own people who had chosen to devote themselves to the church, that was restored through him, that would just wreck me. I would just, I would quit. It's not worth it, you know? But anyway, Joseph Smith was never lawfully convicted of anything, and was ultimately shot and killed while lawfully awaiting yet another trial in a Carthage, IL jail cell, supposedly for his own protection.

19:49 Yep, have. So, and here's the point of all of this. Having assassinated his person, why should we be surprised that he has enemies today who have inherited the mantle of those who killed him? I'm going to want to assassinate his character today, all right? It's the same purpose and it's the same spirit at work. So that shouldn't surprise us. This is a picture of Joseph Smith and his friends, apostles, and this is one of one of the accounts of the last charge, which gives us more perspective relative to the significance of this first vision.

20:35 Joseph Smith said I have rolled this Kingdom off of my shoulders. What Kingdom is he talking about? Kingdom of the Mormons? Kingdom of Nauvoo. Kingdom of God. Kingdom of God on the earth, rolled it off my shoulders onto the shoulders of the 12 and they can carry out this work and build up His Kingdom. I'm tired at 38. Most of us aren't ready to say that yet, but he's been through some stuff. I have been mobbed. I have suffered so much from outsiders and from my own family, his own family. Some of the brethren think they can carry out this work better than I can, far better.

21:16 How about that for people? I have asked the Lord to take me away. You know, for someone of his character and demonstrated strength to say that, it's been pretty bad, he said. I have to seal my testimony to this generation with my blood. I have to do it for this or this work will never progress, and forth for this work will never progress until I am gone, or the testimony is of no force till the testator is dead. That's how a will and a testament works. People know who I am when they talk about me, or people little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until they see me wait in the balance in the Kingdom of God.

22:01 How true is that? And how I anticipate being able to meet him in person and experience his life through that meeting? And I dare not tell them. Then they will know who I am and see me as I am. I dare not tell them, and they do not know me. So he's so the This account of the last charge is from Mary Leitner. Occurred rather late, 19 O 5. She was an early, early plural wife, one of his first plural wives, one of the wives who was married and remained married to a man and had I think 9 or 10 children by him and was fully pregnant and showing when she was sealed with the Prophet Joseph Smith, which is interesting.

22:47 All of his first wives were pregnant and showing. And in those days you didn't have any inquiries when you're expecting. That's that's all, that's a that's another story. Let's go on. So why should? Here's the question in my mind. So if his name should be had for good and evil among all nations, why? What's the big deal? What Joseph Smith claimed was greater than the claims of any other man who lived upon the earth except for Jesus Christ. That seems like enemies of church really love to pick on that statement. Whoa, he's just a big braggart.

23:28 Well, let's let's go through this. He claimed that he was visited by the living God, our Heavenly Father and his Son, the Creator and Savior of worlds in plural, the resurrected Jesus Christ, that guy. Furthermore, Joseph Smith claimed that God had chosen him personally to restore the Kingdom of God on earth. Here's the real kicker through which all mankind, not just the members of the Church, all mankind, all of the family of Adam, living and dead, could receive ordinances necessary to salvation in eternal life. All on him, yes.

24:11 So he's going to be at the Nexus of this fight between good and he. Absolutely. This photo was so cool to me. The guy on the right, Joseph F Smith the great. We can spend all our talk about him, the guy standing next to him with his son, Joseph Fielding Smith. Right. I I love to see these people that we know about their older photos. I love to see them in their prime, to see father and son standing together. Joseph Fielding Smith famously said Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith.

24:53 Yeah, he was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground and I would say the biggest fraud because he made the biggest claims. Absolutely. And and you know, I like that statement, right? A lot of people cringe when they have read that statement, right? And I look again, if it's not true, I've got no time for it, right? It's just what it is. Can I call you so? And so, yeah, yeah, we better be able, we better be able to peg to that, right.

25:37 We better be able to set the benchmark there, right, because. This is where it starts and I will now quote my favorite saying of David Sanders. If it's not true, we may as well this is. A family show. This is a family show. It's not. True, we may as well just watch Old Yeller. Yeah, Yep. I left for a good 15 minutes over that anyway. Yeah. So it's impossible to overstate the significance of the first vision. Now, just to put it all in perspective, Scripture records only three other occasions upon which the Father has spoken from the heavens.

26:24 These are the Savior's baptism #1 Mount of transfiguration #2 and his introduction of Christ to the Nephites in the New world #4 is the Sacred Grove and Palmyra. That's pretty short list. So how many accounts are we talking about? They're divided into primary accounts, the accounts that Joseph Smith himself either wrote or directed through his scribes, and secondary accounts. How many is that? There are four primary accounts. I have looked them listed there with the dates and we'll go through each of them. And there are 5 secondary contemporary accounts. There are five more accounts, secondary accounts that are not contemporary with Joseph Smith that could be added to that list and we'll look at that.

27:25 This website that I have listed here, LDS scripturesteachings.org, love it. Super handy. You click on any one of those accounts and suddenly you're reading it full text and it's not a lot of reading. You could sit down and read all 10 accounts in probably 30 minutes. Does that make sense? Yep, Yep. And you know, and that's not encourage. People to do that. But that's good information too, right? Because as I've heard various podcasters or pundits comment on this, they never actually break it down for you. What are the numbers? What are primary? What are secondary? What are, you know, non contemporary second hand, you know, accounts? How many are there, right?

28:09 So in all actuality, we're dealing with somewhere between what probably 13 and 15 accounts right of. 9 Contemporary accounts, nine, period 9. OK, nine accounts. OK. Is it possible that there are others? Of course. Because as we will see, he bore witness of this event. 2000s Sure, sure. But it's not like there's like when you listen to some of the pundits talk, it just makes it sounds like there's there's crap all over the place, right? You'll have people just like he's just riffing, so to speak, right? You know, the fact he's only telling this a few times should give us a clue into something, right? Which is careful.

28:56 He is careful with this. He is not just haphazardly throwing this out. And we'll get to all the various reasons why that is. So you're going to love where this is going. So the four primary accounts, 1832 handwritten by Joseph and we'll talk about the circumstances surrounding that. 1835 when he had this very interesting meeting with a guy who thought he was Jesus. 1838 is the official account that he wrote after the persecutions in Missouri. And all of these contexts, by the way, have everything to do with how they're written. 1842, the famous Wentworth letter, the 13 articles of faith, he included a brief account there. They're all quite short except for the 1838 where he talks about everything.

29:44 Although now this is, it gets really fun for me, the beauty of all of these accounts and you put them all together, we have a version of the first vision that most of us are unfamiliar with. We, I mean, as is the case with Joseph Smith, I don't think he ever told us everything he knew. In fact, he kept wishing that the Saints were more prepared so that he could reveal 100 times more like about Section 76 bare bones. Now, here's a list of the secondary accounts dating the So the ones that are contemporary date from 1840 to 1844.

30:26 They were in pamphlets and journals. And then 1879 through 1893, John Taylor, George Buchanan, Edward Stevens, and the Charles Walker accounts of the first vision. Again, all of those are that same wonderful handy It's too easy website. So the first criticism is, see, the church knew about all of these accounts and they were hiding them from people. Reason they're hiding them from people is because it would prove the church is false. There's this fair Latter Day Saints, the website, there's information, it's called Hiding the Facts of the Church in Plain Sight, and they list all of the supposed secrets that the church has been hiding and when and where they were published in official church magazines and publications and books.

31:22 For example, this is my favorite one in the improvement era, which is the precursor of the Ensign in April 1970. Not before you were born, Dave. I know, I know I was. Well, not me, wasn't even thought yet. 1970 was a good year baby in the 19th. This is way before the Internet printed for the first time as a report on 8 different accounts. So at the time they only had four of the second of the second hand accounts, but they had the four primaries. OK OK on 1970 the church is telling you we have we have 8 accounts. Only gets better.

32:07 On page 12 of the publication they give you this. Oh. OK, so if you're not watching. Yeah. I, I think I've seen this before. So this is something where they, they, they kind of graph different parts of the story that he tells at certain parts at certain times, right? So at a. Glance, you can see all 8 accounts of where they agree and where they disagree on specific subjects. And what do you see? They're very, very consistent. Yeah.

32:51 And at no point, here's the thing. There are some that have details that the others don't have, but at no point do you see any of them contradict one another. The closest one, the closest one that I've seen in my study of accounts is in the 1832 version that he had wrote. He mentions not 2 personages together. He mentions one, but at two different times that the Lord appears and then he starts talking about the Son of God. So here's Joseph Smith by the way.

33:32 He wasn't home. He was stuck in this little town in Illinois, waiting for Newell K Whitney's leg to feel better because he got broke in an accident. We'll read about that. And for the first time probably in his life, he had time on his hands. He wrote a letter to Emma. I got nothing to do. And so there was this Grove behind the house. And he'd go behind the house and he'd pray and was focused on. Here's one of the cool things about Joseph. He was always repenting and according to the 1838 version, he's not guilty of any great sin, but he was humble, just like in the First Division. So here he is in 1832, going out and praying and contemplating his repentance.

34:16 And we think this is when this 1832 version was begun. We'll see more reasons for that. And so I could see him where. And Joseph Smith was not a good writer. It was hard for him. So here he is pinning, pinning this. And it's not like a when we're riding today on the computer, we can cut and paste and move things around. He couldn't do that. And he was putting his committing pen to paper for the first time. So if he accidentally forgot to connect the appearance of the 1st and the second person, that would be understandable. And when you understand that all nine of the other accounts today, all eight of the other accounts all talk about two percentages, that's a very weak argument. Or the argument that he was somehow a Trinitarian and the Book of Mormon.

35:04 The very first version is full of references to the Father and the Son being separate beings. None of that was that. That doesn't hold any water at all. Now, there have been two other graphs like this or charts that were created more contemporarily with all nine of the accounts and even more checklists. It's 2 pages of checklists but it looks like the same as the other. You know, and it's interesting that they never contradict, right? Like I have a friend who is still a police officer out in Idaho.

35:45 Oh, here we go. This is good. Yep. Not going to say where, but he said. When we're interviewing different people who've witnessed the same thing, the only time we get a little nervous and start asking deeper questions is when it contradicts, he says. If if we expect to see people putting different emphasis on different things because of different people, right? And he said also he said he he just used like a traffic accident as an example. He said he remembered when he was a patrolman, there was an accident and the person who was like T boned the the one who wasn't at fault while the offender was right there would wouldn't necessarily call out as it being their fault until the guy who was hit by the offender was out of earshot of the offender to be able to then he would speak freely, right. So what we realize it or not, all of us on some level understand to what audience were talking right right. And so as as, as this police officer said, we don't worry about stories that maybe have things in it that somebody else's didn't.

37:17 The only time we get really concerned is when there's conflicting or contradictory evidence. Yeah, and that's. He said the absence of certain aspects of the story, those aren't contradictions, and so you can't put them in that school of thought. Yeah, well, here's the other red flag for me especially. We're talking about a long term recitation. If it starts to sound rehearsed, you can bet it probably is. Right. In Joseph Smith's case, it never sounds rehearsed. The details are essentially the same, but like in the 1st and he was writing it down.

37:59 The second one, as we will see, Scribe was taking down notes as he was sharing his experience in a very one-on-one setting. The story is the same, but it comes out different and I just just in terms of sentence structure. So he hasn't memorized any of it. He's talking about as if he's reliving it each time. It's really interesting to me how that works. So there are a number of wonderful websites. This one I have at the bottom here, Pearl of Great Price, central.org. Oh my gosh, you go in there and you look up First Vision. It'll get 3 pages of incredibly and incredible research, all sided, but just boiled down so you can digest it really quickly and it makes beautiful sense.

38:48 These are the other checklists of things that we'll talk about those in greater detail now. Here are the other publications about this issue. I just showed you the 1 from 1970. They did one in 1985, one again in 1996, in April 9 to January 96, again in April 96, all about this stuff. We now know of nine contemporary reports from the prophet himself or from those who personally heard him relate his first vision 9 And we've gone over what they are. That was in April 1996. They went right through it for everybody, didn't pull any punches, not. Exactly hiding that piece of information. So that that was just publications, magazines. They also included in the CES manual in 2003, in two different sections, in two referee journals, one in 1968 way before Eubarn, and another one in 68.

39:56 Then on this all fine print. These are all books that were published on the multiple visions, the most recent being 2009. The first being 1965. That's almost as old as me. Church is really not very good at hiding stuff. You know what I'm saying? It's all been out there and the, the, the reason people get surprised is that they expect the church to be responsible or going out and actively teaching them everything they would ever have to know in their entire lives.

40:37 That's not how God works. God says knock and it shall be opened. You got to do the knocking. And I've, I've a couple of friends who have had the deconstruction of their faith. Why did the church lie to me? And I said, why didn't you ever ask the question? The resources are out there. There are anti Mormon resources and there are apologetic resources that are easy to access. Just Google it. Why are you blaming? Why are you blaming someone else? Something you don't know? The church has its hands full just teaching the principles of the gospel and it's even trying to and it's even trying to take on all of this stuff. If you'll dig a little bit, you know, go ahead I. Was going to say in, in the age of the Internet, there's no more secrets, right?

41:33 They're all there and it's up to us now to go and to to look them up, right. And look, here's the other thing. You should want your information curated for you, OK, period. Whether you trust the sources that it's coming from or not, you should want to do your own homework. It is vitally important that you do your own homework. Oh, exactly. I want to know both sides. I don't like to be hoodwinked. I don't like to be caught by surprise. I want to know what everybody thinks so I can make the most informed opinion. Yeah.

42:15 So here are the primary accounts. You see a page from each of them. Those are the real things and you can access access those primary accounts at least on these four reliable websites. The official church website, Church of Jesus Christ has all of them there under Gospel topics Joseph Smith Papers project. Not only can you read it, you can read it from the original manuscript if you want. The one I mentioned before, I'll just scripture teachings.org and also the program price central.org. I mean there why would the church publish them for for the whole world to see if they're trying to hide something?

42:56 Clearly not Joseph Smith's account of the first vision of Godfather Jesus Christ is recording. Joseph Smith history was canonized as scripture on Sunday October 10th, 1880. Quite late the the Saints were busy trying not to die. Here's the other thing that kills me. Presidentism dictates. Why didn't the Church bring all of this stuff out back in the 1800s? Because you're ignorant of history. They were trying not to die, trying not to starve, trying not to get shot and killed, trying not to go to war with the United States, trying not to have their properties confiscated by the government, trying to build temples, trying to have any sort of meaningful life way before the Internet, way before the luxury of having scholars and money to pay for scholarship. That really is a pretty recent development in my life I that I was able to witness down.

44:05 But while a lot of the Saints are familiar with the canonical account in our Joseph Smith history drafted in 183018301839, over the years historians have identified three other first hand accounts. As with the four canonical gospels in the New Testament that narrate the life of teachings of Jesus, 4 primary accounts of the First Vision can be read individually to appreciate the nuance and the subtle differences that they communicate in each retelling, or they can be read together in harmony to appreciate them as appreciate them as an organic whole. The primary accounts of Joseph Smith's First Vision have been conveniently collected and digitized by the Joseph Smith Papers Project. So here's the first one.

44:54 This is the earliest account of First Vision. It's recorded in Joseph Smith's own hand. It is a deeply personal and poignant narrative that is couched in Joseph's quest to find forgiveness. So 1832, two years after the Church has been organized, it's still tiny. And Joseph's, his perspective of going into the Grove at age 14 had nothing to do with him organizing a church. No, that's not what he was going to the Grove to find out. He wanted to know his standing with God. And as God always does with Joseph, Joseph asked a question. God notably answers the question. He gives him a whole lot to do with it. And that's what happened with the First Vision. Yeah, he's concerned about his standing before God and then what to do for his religious.

45:45 Life right? Consider this and this is historical. He's 14 and he's worried about his sins and he's no great Sinner tells you what kind of person he is. It features an extended direct quotation of what the Lord instructed Joseph Smith in the vision. That's from that Protegate Christ Central website. Again, here are here's the context for this in 1832. There are five significant records that have been that have begun and we'll talk later. Record keeping wasn't a thing, not for Joseph Smith or his family. It was expensive. You had to have writing utensils and paper.

46:27 They had trouble getting enough paper to translate the Book of Mormon for coming out loud. But by 1832, they were commanded to keep records. And we'll go over those commandments in the Book of Commandments in 1830. So by 1832, they've trying to do this. They've collected revelations, they have a, they have a letter book, a minute book, and they begun this history. It's the first record of Joseph Smith's past around this time, in the summer of 1832, spring of 30, Joseph is commanded through revelation that he receives in March 1st to go to Missouri council with the Saints there. It's a difficult time in his life. His adopted son, Joseph Murdoch had just passed away at the end of March, about a week before he actually used to go to Missouri. This is their fourth loss.

47:20 He and Emma. This is also the time, if I recall correctly, when they were near Kirtland, the attempt of the mob that night in the middle of the night and it was freezing outside, they took he and Sydney. They were in different houses nearby, took them outside and tried to kill them. Sydney Riggan was beaten so bad that he was never the same after that. You know what happened to Sydney? He was so stalwart to begin with. He got brain damage from getting beaten so badly. Yeah, I've heard that before. Yeah, it does seem to track right, because it's right after that that Sydney is never quite skip back to what he was exactly right.

48:03 He was prone to fits of rage and that sort of thing. Joseph Smith, according to one account in a book called Mormon Wars, did die and recounted how his spirit left his body and he could see his body and they were going to do 2 things to him there. This is where they tried to pour poison down his throat and cut his lip. So he had that scar on his lip and and broke his tooth. So he spoke with a little bit of a whistle because of that. It's also where he got the bald spot on the back of his head. In the struggle. They ripped a patch of hair out of the back of his head. And there was a doctor there who was going to emasculate him, who was going to castrate him.

48:45 Oh. Wow. And the doctor chickened out the last minute and wouldn't do it. And then they tarred and feathered him hot boiling tar, which when it makes contact, they, they strip you naked and put hot boiling tar on you and it gives you second, third degree burns. And then they put feathers in it, which when it dries it, they, they poke your skin. So it's extremely painful and and it gave yeah and even if you. Were dying from being tarred and feathered right? Because infection would set in like it wasn't just meant for humiliation.

49:26 Well, and it's worse in Missouri, though one of one of the ones that's especially interesting to me. There's this anecdotal story of Emma Smith pushing Eliza our Snow down the stairs, causing her to miscarry Joseph's child. There is a record of Eliza R Snow admitting to someone, I don't recall it exactly off the top of my head, that she had been raped so violently in Missouri that she became barren after that. Yep, Yep, I've read the same account. I mean, there, there are these and those sadly are common things that because of the time, the decency of the people, it would never talk about anyway.

50:15 So Emma spent the night getting the tar off of Joseph. He was supposed to give a sermon the next morning. So he did, bleeding and scarred up from the beating. And yet some of the people in the crowd that had gathered were some of the people who had attacked him the night before. Sidney Riggan was left for dead on a wood pile in the freezing weather overnight. So we're not we're not just talking about good hearted hazings here. Right. This is bad news, OK?

50:56 Difficult time in his life. Joseph Murica just passed away. This happens because of an incident that occurs in late March when the mob burst into the home. Yeah, we read that they take him into a field where they tar and feather him. They leave out the really bad stuff, leave the door, the house open and Murdoch had the measles. He's exposed and ends up dying a couple days later. This is their fourth child to pass away in infancy. It's a traumatic time in his life when he's going to Missouri. He gets there in April 1832. He stays in Missouri for about 3 weeks and then returns to Kirtland. He's travelling with Sidney Riggan, Newell K Whitney.

51:37 As they're going along. They're riding in a Stagecoach and they're in Indiana. Horses playing the stagecoat gets spooked and bolts. Joseph is able to leap to safety. Sidney Rigdon is able to leap to safety, but when Newell K Whitney tries to jump, his pants get caught on the door and he ends up breaking his leg in several different places, which means that he can't travel any longer back to Ohio. Joseph, even in the midst of this kind of tumultuous time in his life, decides that he can't just abandoned Newell in this village where Newell doesn't know anyone you want to know. Insight into his into who he was. There you go.

52:27 You want to know a person's character? How do they behave when no one else is watching? He wasn't doing this for anybody but Newell, but that he needs to stay with Newell. So he sends Sydney on to Ohio and he ends up staying in Greenville IN this little town with Newell K Wendy for about 6 weeks until he can travel again. There's a Grove of trees that is behind the town. He tells Emma in a letter that he writes to her in June of 1830 to do that because he has all this time on his hands. He doesn't. He really doesn't know what to do. Can you relate to that? I can't a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, I can't. Hold this today.

53:08 What's wrong? Yeah. Yep. So that's where that comes from. It's a very introspective first attempt. Here's the 1835 account. This recitation of the first vision stems from Joseph Smith's encounter with the eccentric Robert Matthews in November 1835. Joseph and Matthews discussed religious matters during their meeting as both claimed prophetic authority. Part of the conversation included Joseph's description of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Interestingly enough, he begins the story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon with the first vision.

53:51 This account includes the detail not present in other accounts that Joseph saw many angels in his vision of the Father and the Son. This is what I love about these other accounts. Clearly, we do not know everything that went on there. Talk more about that. The next two surviving accounts of the first vision, other two, they're essentially the same. Count Warren Parrish was writing down was recording their conversation and then Joseph Smith used that later. So same account, although they call it 2. Matthews was also known as Matthias the Prophet and Joshua the Jewish minister.

54:39 He was an eccentric religious figure in the 19th century America. At different times in his life he claimed that he was God or that he was the reincarnation of the New Testament apostle. Matthias and Joseph Smith is giving him some time. In November, Matthias came to Ohio and sought out Joseph Smith. While the two conversed, Joseph described his own spiritual history. Warren Parrish, one of the scribes, was present and recorded an account of the meeting that he later copied into Joseph's journal. This, interestingly enough, is the first time we hear him. Joseph use the word first to describe the Vision.

55:20 It only becomes the first vision in interpreted memory when subsequent subsequent experiences allow you to give that meaning to it. OK. So if he was this conniving charlatan, he would have called the first vision in the beginning because he would already have planned out he's going to have these other visions. When he had the first vision, he had no idea it was the vision. Yeah, it. Wouldn't just been the vision, right? Exactly. And now 183515 years later, it was the first because he has had subsequent visions, right?

56:01 Pretty interesting to me. This website. This is probably the most enjoyable podcast I heard about it. It was the most scholarly, the most well put together. Joseph Smith Papers project, Joseph papers.org. It's a six episode podcast and that's where I got the information about the the Sacred Grove and everything else. And any guesses how many people visit the Sacred Grove every year? Between 1 and 200,000 people. A lot. That's a lot. Now here we have the 1838 account, the most famous. This recitation opened what later evolved into the six volume history of the Church and was canonized in the Pearl Great Prize written at a time.

56:52 And the persecution of the Saints in Missouri was fresh on the prophet's mind. He's in a very different place now. The tone of this retelling is more defensive and apologetic and dare I say, angry, and emphasizes the theme of opposition against Joseph personally as well as his efforts to restore the Church of Jesus Christ. Gee, do you think it's going to sound a little bit different in 1838? He says sarcastically. Oh. Absolutely. And, and look, I, I want to say this too, this isn't a time where Joseph, quite frankly, is going back and looking at a lot of things.

57:32 I think it's during the same time period. They're not finished until 1840, but he's still going back and making revisions to the Book of Mormon, right. Oh, yeah. And so this is keeping in with, with what seems to be a time period for him that he's like refining all these things that he has saw, right. And I, I want to make this, I, I want to help maybe paint some context here to this time period because there's this other school of thought that says, well, he should just know it by heart from the beginning because. We'll talk about that too. But it's spirit to spirit and all these things. And I'm like, if anybody's been in a truly horrifically, and I use the word horrifically on purpose here, time in your life where you were horrifically busy, right? And you are, it feels like everything's on fire all the time.

58:38 You don't necessarily have the gift of being able to sit back and look at what you did just last week because you're on to the next fire, right? You got to put out whatever it is that's in front of you that is demanding your attention. Now, right. Yeah, Yeah. 1838 eighteen 40s you're you are in a different. I can't remember exactly when he's in Nauvoo. I want to say he was there by 38. I could be wrong, but at at any rate, there does come points in his life where he gets to be able to sit down and, you know, maybe he reads the Book of Mormon and goes, you know, I know that's what I said, but that's probably not a great description of it or more.

59:20 Likely, but we find out his wrote it down wrong. Right. His understanding has changed, right? Or EB. Or EB Grand and heaven, heaven forbid, before the computer made mistakes. Yeah, right. Exactly. So there's all these things here that Joseph in this time period has the time now to look back on and go, OK, let's let's refine these things a little bit. Here's what's crazy, though. He seems to be getting more done in the Nauvoo period, but he's never been busier. He's the mayor, he's the Marshall, you know, he's the Colonel or whatever, the Namu Legion.

1:00:01 He's in court both as a judge and also as a litigant, almost every month at least. And their church is growing. And then there's the translation of the Bible, the JST, and I think in my studies of that, I just want to point this out. We are rightly preoccupied with the G, the JST translation itself that the church acquired from the RLDS for a penny so many years ago. So we could include it in the text of the latter day St. publication of the Bible, the Holy Bible. That was awesome, but the Lord was adamant he kept after Joseph Smith.

1:00:50 You need to get back to work on the JST. Why was God commanding him to work and work work on the JST when the church, the LDS church, had nobody but the RLDS had any access to it until 1979. What we're missing is what God was wanting him to do what what was the byproduct, which I ultimately think was the primary product of the JST. It forced Joseph to go into the scriptures and what was the result A low book of Moses that alone would justify that work It as is the case with me. People say how often do you receive revelation and I tell them was a priest of meeting with Dan. I said every single time I dive into the Scriptures, I'm I'm receiving inspiration about something that I'm studying. The other thing people don't realize the majority of the sections of the Doctrine and Covenants or the byproduct of his translating the Holy Bible.

1:01:57 Wow. That's to me, that's the greatest single blessing. The JST is great, that's important. But it it, it dwarfed my comparison of the revelation that was the byproduct of that study. OK, so. Hold on one second. There's a few things that I think are are worth fleshing out here a little bit. One is, is what you said about the Nauvoo period, right? He's never been busier, but he's getting more done, right? And, and, and I want to be careful here because I'm not trying to lessen any events within the Restoration. They're all vitally important. Yeah.

1:02:38 However, if you want to see peak Joseph Smith, right, you go to Nauvoo, because it's in Nauvoo that he is functioning on a different level. He leaves. He leaves Liberty Jail, a changed man. Yes. And and look, we don't have record other than 1/21 and and another section of what was going on in liberty at those times, but one an incredible questioning. Yeah. Given the depth of questioning that Joseph gives to the Lord, that's not a one time event. These are things he's sitting on. So I'm guessing that in the depths of his misery in Liberty Jail, something happens to him.

1:03:28 What that is, I'm, I don't know, maybe you know, can, but he leaves Liberty Jail and he goes to Nauvoo a different a different man, so to speak. He is he is now about to start operating on a much different level than he has previously. And so that's that's peak Joseph Smith. I'll, I'll tell you what I think happened. That was his Gethsemane. That was his, that was his forty days in the wilderness. All great servants of Lord have had to pass through that Gethsemane, for a lack of a better term. This comes to Jesus moment and of course he's had numerous ones, but this, this is where Jesus said to him, hey, you're not as bad as Job, yet you still have friends, right? Joseph as Jesus on the cross, my God, my God, why has to forsaken me.

1:04:25 This is what Joseph Smith was crying out and what we forget about Joseph Smith, yes, he's the prophet of the Restoration, but he's still an individual working out his salvation. And the purpose of the plan of salvation is for us to experience the bitter and the sweet so that we can have true joy. And we can only comprehend joy to the extent that we comprehend sorrow. I'm not breaking any news here. We live in spiritually perilous times. It seems like danger is all around us or our family spiritually all the time. But our God hasn't left us defenseless. We read in Ephesians chapter 6 verse 17 and take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God. So in our spiritual battles, the scriptures are our sword. But just like real swords, not all Canon of scripture are made equal.

1:05:16 You need to make sure that you're entering the battle with the right gear. With that thought in mind, Drew Brownie and others have been working on a project to bring you what is now being called the Restored version of the Scriptures. So what is the restored version of the Scriptures? The restored version is the most accurate, exhaustive, comfortable to read, a triple combination ever made. It was designed to honor Joseph Smith's revelatory words and edits through clean and accurate Joseph approved texts. The restored version contains each book found in the modern LDS triple combination that is the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl. Great price, except it has Joseph's original inspired text and an easy to read format. It restored the Lectures on Faith, which were removed in 1921.

1:06:01 It adds an additional 87 uncanonized revelations of Joseph Smith, as well as 33 revelations received by Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilfred Woodruff and other members of the Quorum of the 12. Each copy of the restored version is built to last. These scriptures look good, feel comfortable, and are bound to last. The restored version uses cover material that is ideal for high quality books that is both hard wearing and soft and should handle many years of use. It has beautiful gold and silver gilded edges. It has sturdy, flexible binding, making it so the book may comfortably and safely be laid on a desk. It has reliable paper that is very thin, yet sturdy and thick enough that it's hard to see through, and comes with marking ribbons so that you never lose your reading place. Each copy of the restored version are built with the intent of lasting for years and years, just like the LDS versions of the triple combination. You might be asking yourself, what are the benefits of owning your own copy of the restored version of the scriptures? Well, how's this for starters?

1:07:06 Number one, the spiritual significance. The restored version contains every known revelation of Joseph Smith as well as those of his first successors, the historical significance. While the foundational text for the Restored Version is the latest edition of each book of Scripture that Joseph approved, the Restored Version carefully documents through footnotes, italicized texts, every substantive change made by Joseph or his editing committee, making the Restored Version a truly original set of Scriptures. Formatting Significance The Restored Version contains no columns, no cumbersome Croft references, and no paragraph breaks at every verse just like the original, and has been improved with many verse numbers in the paragraphs, which provide a smooth, seamless reading experience that makes it easy to lose track of time while reading and makes it easier to see the large, larger narrative within the Scriptures. It is also the first original editions published that can be used with study guys since almost all of the other originals don't have verses in it. The restored version offers a pure offers pure doctrine and the most historically transparent Mormon triple combination ever made with a modern format that provides for a smooth, seamless and spiritual read. Now to get your copy today, just go to www.restoredscriptures.com or click the link in this episode show notes. Again, that is www.restoredscriptures.com or click the link in this episode

1:08:37 show notes and order your copy today and arm you and your family with the word of God. Now let's get back to our conversation. Isn't that crazy? Isn't that crazy? That's that's beautiful, right? But that's one of the things that appeals, I believe, for those of us who have who loved the Prophet Joseph, it's because we recognize in him something in ourselves. Right now he's operating on a different level, but there are times in certain parts of his writings where you get the feeling he's searching for the Savior as much as anybody else's, of course. That was a hello first vision. That was the whole thing for him.

1:09:18 Yep, absolutely. And then what you said about the Scriptures here, about gaining revelation, who often can I think that that we look at spiritual giants and we say we could never attain to that, right? But as I've been able to get glimpses into the life of spiritual giants, do you not want to know what separates them from me? It's not the big things, right? It's if they're not going out usually and doing Herculean kind of spiritual tasks, what they're doing is they're making a bunch of little decisions that I am not, right. Let me give you an example. I go to the gym, not going to lie, time to time. I like good Hard Rock music to, you know, get things moving, right?

1:10:05 Get right. Yeah. Or throwing some weight around the spiritual giant. He's listening to some great work on on Audible, right? Now maybe. Come on. Come on. Right. I mean, but no, really though, it's those small things. And so part of those small things are just being disciplined enough to get into your scriptures because they do put you into a revelatory state, right? And that's what I want. And, and how many of us are checking all the big boxes? But then the smaller boxes we're kind of ignoring, right? We're like, I'll do anything, Lord, really. Would you read your scriptures every night like I asked? You know what?

1:10:49 You know what else is? It's consistency. It's easy for a person to choose a good thing once, but to choose it over and over and over again, repeatedly, that is the true expression of your will. Yes. How bad do you want it? Do you want it bad enough to make it a part of your life? And so and whether you're, no matter what direction you're going in, those day by day decisions are an expression of your will, of what you want to do. Absolutely. And here's the cool thing. What Joseph Smith had to acquire by revelation, we can acquire by cracking the Scriptures and reading it, right? You know what I'm saying?

1:11:33 Like what Abraham and Moses had to learn about the eternities. We can get it by getting our free copy of the triple combination and reading it and having that confirmation to us blow our minds. You know we got that cheat code so. In the wake of a long string of violent persecution, Joseph Sidney Riggan and Clerk George W Robinson opened the history like this, and we've read this owing to the many reports. So this is how the 1838 version begins, owing to the many reports which have been in circulation by evil disposed and designing persons in relation to the rise and progress of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, all of which have been designed by the authors thereof to militate against its character as a Church and its progress in the world. I have been induced to write this history to disabuse the public mind and put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts as they have transpired in relation both to myself and the Church.

1:12:40 Very direct. Well, there's a a, a stylistician is what they're called, and their academic training is to be able to adjudicate a person's intent by how and what they write. It's a beautiful thing. We'll read about that in a second. Joseph wanted to put his story out there. He wanted to be on record of what's going on. So as yet he has no official account. His first attempt in 32 is casual one in 35. Joseph is very direct and determined in the language he uses. After recounting division, he writes, and this is where we first see this. For I had seen a vision, I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it. Neither dared I do it.

1:13:27 Very straight forward, almost playing some of the things related to this and how he describes it. Very interesting and distinct from what was going on at the time. That Joseph and the Saints had experienced such violent persecution around the time that he wrote this history helps explain the defiant tone. He was saying that no amount of persecution would cause him to deny the visions and revelations he had to add. So this is the year of his life that sandwiches the writing of his history. He starts writing the account that we have in the Pearl Grate Prize before he gets captured and put in jail, and he finishes it.

1:14:10 Shortly after he gets out of jail. I move to what is now Nauvoo. We also CC regret in the 1938 account that Joseph is recognizing just how important now the visions and revelations he experienced in the 1820s were to the establishment and progress of the Church since 1830. At one level, they were personal spiritual experiences for him, but he now realizes they were more than that. They weren't just for him. And so we begin to see that the visions of Joseph Smith, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, the first vision is ultimately linked, intimately linked to the rise of the church itself. And we move away from Joseph Smith seeing the first vision as a personal redemptive narrative to a beginning of the church itself.

1:15:05 Can you see how he's he didn't get that at first. How could he was 14? And, and, and that's just what I was going to say here, Ken, is that when when we look at, at his previous accounts, those are personal, right? He's writing this in his journal. He's maybe to Emma, the second one, he is talking to another guy who's maybe pressing him on his quote credentials, right? And and those are very interpersonal kind of things. This is the first time that I think Joseph understands or he has some inclination, probably due to the fact that he's been under so much persecution along with the people that follow him, that he's like, we're going to get this out.

1:15:54 Everyone's going to know what has happened here. And, and so you would expect that 1838 account to maybe be more deliberate in how he's explaining what he saw, right? Because the other accounts make it sound like it's way more about how it, and this is my take away, correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I've read the other accounts, the other accounts, the more personal ones prior to 38 seem to be much more focused on how it made Joseph feel. What you know it was Joseph saying this is what it did for me, right? Or this, yes, Simply put, me and his friend counts one and then this one he's saying ends of the earth hear it. God has appeared to man again, right? It's a proclamation.

1:16:44 It's a different thing entirely. So in his earlier years, he saw the first vision as a beginning to his personal faith. Now, in 1838, he's seeing it. Oh my gosh, that was the beginning of the restoration of the Kingdom of God on earth. Now he recognizes it wasn't just about him. Beautiful. Let's see, in some ways Joseph is saying this no longer belongs to just me. Exactly, which was hard for him to do. So we move away from the Joseph from Joseph Smith seeing the First Vision as a person or redemptive narrative to the beginning of the Church itself. The Joseph Smith is receiving not just messages of your sins have forgiven you, but Joseph don't join any churches. You need to form your own and I think that that's important to see early on, Joseph Smith asked about his visions in a more personal talked about his visions in a in a more personal manner.

1:17:44 Then by the end of his life, his early visions are linked to the rise, the progress of the church itself. Let me interject here. There's a lot of information on these slides, websites and direct quotes. And as always, I would love this is just APDF format. I can e-mail it or message it, attach it on Facebook to anybody who wants it. I've done it before. If you want this slideshow, it's yours. Just contact me and I'll attach it to my reply. So if you're interested in that, because it's just, I mean, there are hundreds and hundreds of pages of stuff that we can draw.

1:18:27 On that, it blew my mind. So send and everybody out there, send me the e-mail first. I don't want Ken's e-mail box blown up, so e-mail me and I'll get it. Oh, it hasn't happened. It's been very reasonable. It's fine, thank you. Which brings us to the last first hand account 1842, part of the Wentworth Letter. Published in 1842 in the Times and Seasons. The account was prepared at the request of Chicago newspaper man John Wentworth. It was contextualized as part of a larger sketch of the rise, progress, persecution and faith of the Latter Day Saints. Peppered with Latin phrases carefully crafted for the wide public consumption of drawing language from previously published records, this account of the first vision shows the prophets evolving literary style. He became a better writer and speaker. He got better and reliance on clerks who helped him reformulate his narrative in later years. Here's the context.

1:19:34 He got this letter from John Wentworth, the owner of a prominent Chicago newspaper. Wentworth wrote on behalf of a friend who was writing a book on the history of New Hampshire, where Joseph grew up. The friend was considering including information on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in that book. Accordingly, Wentworth asked Joseph to supply a summary of the doctrine history of the Latter Day Saints. Ironically, he never included it in his book. He decided to stop at 1819. But thankfully and in the mind and purposes of God, we have the 13 Articles of Faith and his last account. Joseph obliged, wrote a brief letter and reply.

1:20:14 He included an account of First Vision. Congruent with the 1838 account, but the tone was very different. Now you have an influential of influential opinion makers asking you kindly if you would provide your own story for them. And so Joseph Smith responds so much less defiantly in his 1842 letter to John Webber. So this is like the high point of Nauvoo in any case. So he's pretty good place relative to the rest of his life. We do not have the letter Joseph wrote to Wentworth. It was destroyed, apparently, but Joseph published it in the Times and Seasons. So we have a March 1842 printing of it. And it tells the same story.

1:21:00 But it tells it in terms that are not angry and that may have been consciously or unconsciously shaped by public relations concerns. So instead, for example, of the Lord saying the professors of religion are corrupt and all their creeds are an abomination. My Barber, good evangelical Christian man, he gets after me for that stuff. I was saying, you know why? I said there's a recent study that shows that Latter Day Saints are more supportive of other Christians than other Christians are of them. He looks at me with this smile and he says yeah, but don't forget you guys started it. He's not wrong. I was like, yeah, you're right. Yeah, we sure did.

1:21:40 He's not wrong, Ken. He's not wrong at all. We had a good laugh over that. Excuse me for a moment. Get a drink here in 1842, he says. The Lord told me they were all believing in incorrect doctrines. That's a lot more palatable than abomination. A little softer, a little more digestible to a non Latter Day St. He's no dummy. Wentworth's friend ultimately ended his history of New Hampshire in 1819 did not include the Latter Day Saints in that book. Had Joseph not published the letter in the time of the seasons, that account may have been lost to history.

1:22:25 In summation, on the Program Price Central website, the 183538 and 42 accounts of the First Vision were copied or otherwise repurposed on a few occasions and Joseph Smith's lifetime attesting to their importance. As one historian remark, Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith's First Vision may be the best documented theophany in history. I want to say that again. First, theophany is an account of God appearing to man. There are many in history. Joseph Smith's is the best documented theophany in history because we have four first hand accounts and then we have numerous 5 second hand accounts.

1:23:15 Contemporary Joseph Smith worked hard to document his experience in the growth and scholars have worked hard to raise awareness of his several accounts. That is true. So rather than feel threatened or bothered by the existence of multiple accounts of the first vision, I don't understand that. First of all, it's a big nothing burger to me. Latter Day Saints can write and rejoice that they have access to additional records that complement the canonical account in the Pearl of Great Price. My favorite part of tonight's discussion is when we talked about those aspects that add to our understanding of that event. As is true with all books of Scripture, the First Vision accounts were created in specific historical settings that shape what they say and how they say it. That's actually evidence that it's true, that it's not just a regurgitated, memorized plot.

1:24:12 He's reliving it. Each of the accounts of Joseph Smith's first vision has its own history. Each was created in circumstances that determined how it was remembered and communicated, and thus how it was transmitted to us. That's human. That's how memory works. Each account has gaps and emissions. Each adds detail and richness. And I will add here, not a single one of them tells us everything that happened, right, Which should not surprise anybody who has studied the teachings of Joseph Smith, Joseph said as. Much right as you pointed out at the beginning, he tells you. I can't tell you 100th part of what I really know. Oh yeah, and he wanted to tell everybody, but he knew we were ready.

1:24:57 So here we come to the secondary accounts. During his lifetime, Joseph provided 4 first hand accounts. First Vision. These primary accounts serve as the foundation for understanding the prophets early history and prophetic call. During his lifetime, however, Joseph also on occasion recounted First Division to trusted friends, and the public at large will read some of those accounts. Those who heard him retell the First Vision story then recorded these rehearsals in both published works and private journals. These secondary accounts act as important historical data accounts. I'll get my glasses here. And second, they serve as evidence that even though he was overall reticent to speak too much about it, we'll talk about why Joseph was nevertheless telling others about the first vision during his lifetime. So here's the first.

1:25:49 This is the Orson Pratt second hand account in 1840 while on a mission in the British Isles. Apostle. Don't you dig his hairstyle? Apostle Orson Pratt published an interest. It's called an interesting account of several remarkable visions. Sweaty a pamphlet and of the late discovery of ancient American records as a missionary tract. He began his 31 page as a big pamphlet by describing Joseph Smith's first vision of deity and the later visit Joseph received from the Angel of the Lord. I want to compare and contrast those two because that's something to be learned there. That was also the first to mention that the bright, this is cool.

1:26:30 We'll read that completely. His is the only account that says the bright light that descended on Joseph was so intense that Joseph expected the leaves and boughs of the trees to be consumed. And he goes in greater detail about Joseph is letting fly his impression. I mean, and we'll talk about this also. Joseph is not the first prophet in history to struggle to describe a light beyond anything you'd ever seen. Very interesting. Orson Hyde, a good looking guy. That was the best looking picture I could find of him.

1:27:10 I love this. I wish I could meet this guy. I love this guy. This is in German. It's the first time the first vision was written in the language other than English. He was serving in Germany. Two years after Pratt published his pamphlet, Orson published A missionary tract in Germany and Roof AUS de Vista. I don't know exactly what that means. It means a cry out of the wilderness. I've done some German a cry out of the wilderness, a voice from the bowels of the earth using Pratts. An interesting account in his principle as his he was using Pratts as his source. I touch on the same points as Pratt and his retelling of the First Vision.

1:27:54 One detail included by Hyde, not by Pratt, however, is that Joseph painting the Grove is as Joseph painting the Grove. The adversary filled his mind with doubts and all manner of inappropriate images that prevented him from attaining the object of his endeavors. Interesting. Stupid Satan using the same stupid things on us. Yep. Although Hyde's overseas pamphlet did not become as popular or influential as Pratt's, it is significant as the first account of First Vision published in a language other than English. This is Levi Richards from June 11, 1843, two years before his death, in a meeting at the temple in Nauvoo, IL in the evening of June 11th, 1843. Levi Richards, one of the prophets, Clerks, and a church historian, heard Joseph give an account with First Vision. His retelling came right after Elder George Adams spoke on the Book of Mormon and passages from Isaiah 242829 concerning the apostasy from Christ's everlasting covenant. After summarizing Adam's remarks, Elder Richards then recorded President Joseph Smith bore testimony to the same, saying that when he was a youth he began to think about these things, but could not find out which of all the sects were right.

1:29:18 He went into the Grove and inquired of the Lord which of all the sects were right. He received her answer that none of them were right, that they were all wrong, and that the everlasting covenant was broken. Now why would he highlight that in that meeting? Because they had just been talking about apostasy. Yep. So we added his testimony there. Here are those poor guys leaving out there's some Orson Pat, Orson, Hyde and. We'll get to David Nye. David Nye Oh yeah, couldn't find a picture of that dude. A few months after this June 1843 meeting, a journalist named David Knife White, Senior editor. Oh, I did have a picture of the Pittsburgh Weekly Gazette interviewed Joseph for his paper. Not a lot of the same while traveling through Nabu in the nearby area.

1:30:18 During the conversation that ensued, the Prophet related to circumstances the 1820 Vision. In this interview, Joseph reiterated the familiar points present in his earlier accounts, with the added detail that the specific place in the Grove where he prayed was a clearing that had a stump where he had struck his axe when he had quit work the previous day. That's that is an insignificant detail in terms of doctrine. You would only add that if it had happened 100%. That's the only clue we have as to where in the Grove that might have been and the time of. Year 100%.

1:30:59 You know what that reminds me of? What? The free bird painting of of Washington and the Grove or or or at Valley Forge. So the only reason we have record of that is because of a man named Isaac Potts. And there's some speculation whether Potts was just a Quaker who wanted the war to end or was he a British spy. It doesn't really matter. But nonetheless, when Potts goes to either spy on Washington to tell the British where they are so they can end the war or maybe even take him out, he goes and he follows Washington into the forest and he hears Washington pray and he goes home and he tells his wife we're on the wrong side.

1:31:53 And basically he flips his allegiance. Now, the interesting thing here, and this kind of ties in with the axe and and everything else. And, and I think this lends credence to this. Freeburg got everything that he could possibly get right, right in that painting, right down to the, you know, to the color of the horse, the best he could come up with descriptions. The one thing he got wrong was the way Washington prayed. We know because of Isaac Potts that Washington didn't pray on one knee with hands folded and his head down. When Washington prayed, he prayed on both knees, hands up and his face looking towards heaven. Amazing.

1:32:43 Yeah. It's that small detail that tells you that it's not rehearsed, right? That that there are all these details that are making an impression. That are significant, yes, they're significant. There's no it doesn't. It doesn't embellish anything. No, no. And so as as Nye tells the stories, David Nye White tells the story and Joe or or was retelling the story that's told to him, obviously there is some some detail there that is seared into Joseph's memory, right. And I think that's hugely important when we start talking about the veracity of of the claims that he said he saw, I think it's it adds a level of, of credence and gravitas to what it is he's after.

1:33:41 Absolutely. So here's Alexander Niebauer. The final contemporary secondary town of First Vision comes from Alexander Niebauer, A trusted Jewish German friend of the prophets, who had joined the Church in England in 1837 some years previously, and it immigrated to Nauvoo four years later. Keep thinking about him, as his English was not great at a very thick German accent. In May 1844, Niebauer was present at a small gathering to his chosen gave an account of his vision just a month before, one month before he was murdered.

1:34:24 Importantly, Niebauer preserved Joseph's only description of the personage who otherwise defied all description as light complexion, blue eyes, and a piece of white cloth drawn over his shoulder, his right arm bare. After a while, another person came up to the side of the 1st. Interesting, I don't like a robe. Over his shoulder. That's kind of what I'm thinking, yeah. It's it's kind of a.

1:35:09 Probably. Just a coincidence, Dave. It's just a coincidence. Don't worry about it. Can't be anything to it. It should be remembered that these are the known contemporary second hand accounts for the First Vision. It is almost certain that Joseph told more individuals about this vision, but that these retellings were not recorded or have not survived. Later eminences from UP from individuals who knew Joseph corroborate this like the other five. Did we say caps right? For instance, Joseph Curtis, remember Joseph providing an account of his First Vision 1835 while visiting the Saints in Michigan? Oh, he's trying to hide it in Michigan, not Edward Stephenson.

1:35:53 Recall late in his life that in 1834 he, along with many, large, many large congregations, heard the Prophet testify with great power concerning the visit of the Father and the Son and the conversation he had with them and Mary. Isabella Horne recounted how she first met Joseph as a young woman while living in Canada, Toronto, and in the fall of 1837 remembered hearing him relate to his first vision when the father and the son appeared to him, and also his receiving the gold plates with me tomorrow night. Although these reminiscences must be accepted cautiously because of their second hand nature and in some cases because of the great distance from the time of the events, they are consistent with Joseph's own first hand accounts and are reinforced by the known fact that the Prophet was indeed telling others about his vision during the mid 1830s. When brought together, these first handed secondary accounts constitute the entire known historical record that relates directly to the contemporary descriptions of Joseph Smith's first vision and potentially make that vision the best documented theophany in history.

1:37:10 Stick that in your pipe, spoke other criticisms. There was an article written a few decades ago saying that the religious excitement that Joseph Smith described prior to 1820 in the Palmyra area is false, that there was no such religious excitement when scholars really dug into it. But do you imagine they found exactly the opposite, and exactly what Joseph Smith's described in specific detail in Palmyra, specifically the Great Revival of 1816 and 1817? And apparently he had been investigating this and struggling with this for two to three years before the First Vision, before he prayed. The Great Revival of 18/16/87, which nearly doubled the number of Palmyra Presbyterians, was still in progress when The Smiths arrived the next year, June 1818. A Methodist camp.

1:38:13 Why is that significant? That was the minister that Joseph Smith was listening to and confided in. And why the Presbyterian? And why the Presbyterian significant? That's the church that Lucy, Joseph's mother Lucy, and most of the family joined. Before the 1st Division. A Methodist camp meeting was held on the outskirts of town, drawing in a crowd of around 2000, twice the population of Palmyra itself. So this painting that I have here, it's not an exaggeration, must have been like pro wrestling or something of the day and featuring a high, a high-ranking leader, honestly.

1:39:00 It must have been like their number one choice of entertainment, honestly. Well, that's, that's actually, that's actually keeping, keeping in with the times, right? Yeah, De Tocqueville mentions that right, that in his treatise on America, he said the even the Taverns were alive with, you know, religious fervor and the talk of politics. Right. So why wouldn't it be freedom of religion? Yeah, it was the IT was the first time you could do that, right? It wasn't it? It was kind of a novelty.

1:39:41 Yeah, but yeah. But none, none the less, it does show that. OK, side tangent, our phones are making us Dumber. I don't know how else to put it. None of us like we have access to be able to just bring up all sorts of massive information, but yet we just keep getting Dumber, right? It seems like when we didn't have all this tech, we were thinking about deeper things. But nonetheless, it it does show that that this was very much an American pastime talking about religion and politics. For sure there's a high-ranking leader in the American Methodist Church. Another Methodist camp meeting with at least 1000 people in tennis was held in Palmyra.

1:40:27 June. 1820 and in July 1819, the neighboring town of Phelps, also called Vienna, was the host of a major regional conference of the Methodist Church, bringing in around 100 preachers from all across Western New York, big money northern Pennsylvania, and southern Canada. These preachers held camp meetings throughout the region as they travel to and from the conference. Yes, Joseph Smith was telling the truth. So why did Joseph Smith wait so long to tell anyone it's actually not true. He waited, but not as long as people think.

1:41:08 There is evidence that church members were aware of elements of the First Vision story as early as 1827. Well that would have made him 20 years old in 1827. And thank goodness for the anti Mormons. A skeptical account from Reverend John Nick Clark mixed nine First Division story elements together from the story of the coming forth the Book of Mormon and said he learned them all in the fall of 1827. For Martin Harris second hand that early interesting a hostile account for someone who knew Joseph. In 1827 reported I, Joseph Capron became acquainted with Joseph Smith's senior and the year of our Lord 1827. They have since then been really a peculiar people, fond of the foolish and the marvelous, at one time addicted to vice and the grossest immoralities, and another time making the highest pretentious to piety and holy intercourse with Almighty God. See Family of The Smiths held Joseph Junior in high estimation on account of some supernatural power which he was supposed to possess 1827 quite early.

1:42:16 Then we have similar accounts in 3132333435 and 36. So it's a it's a test that far earlier than most people realize. Nevertheless, why didn't he write it down immediately? Why didn't he tell more people about it? I give 5 reasons #1 Joseph Smith was not a loudmouth. His own mother describes him as a remarkably quiet, well disposed child, much less inclined to the perusal of books than any of the rest of our children, but far more given to meditation and deep study. OK. Yeah, he's not that kind. Of guy we can say from that we can say he's he's internalizing what he's received, right, which does add up to his first rehearsals of his vision, right or his first first tellings of his vision because he is it's very it's a very from a very personal point of view, right. This is what again, this is what it meant to me being. Personal or not, his mother describes him as an introvert. An introvert is not going to be clientele, anybody, anything, especially something so personal. Right.

1:43:26 Second reason, persecution and the years after his first vision. Joseph Junior said little about his spiritual development. He had no sense of mission. God hadn't told him yet. No emerging prophetic identity, unless a mysterious reference to the 1838 account says many other things did he say to me which I cannot write at this time? Richard Bushman says, unless that is interpreted to mean religious instructions. Don't know what Joseph said explicitly was that division led to trouble, though his youthful sensitivity probably exaggerated the reaction.

1:44:11 Well, duh. The talk with the minister he remembered brought on ridiculed by all classes of men, both religious and irreligious. Because I continued to affirm what I had, that I'd seen a vision. Even though he wasn't even persecuted, he wouldn't deny it. His brother William remembered people throwing, throwing stuff at their house, dirt, stones and sticks. It is noted by some that in 1838 Joseph declared that his basic reason. This is interesting. Also from Rough Stone, rolling or no Pearliger I say were telling. The basic reason for telling the first vision, even then, 18 years after it happened, was in response to reports that put in circulation by evil dispose and designing persons to defend himself who had distorted the facts. Furthermore, the young Prophet said that he had been severely rebuffed the first time he told the story in 1820, and since it represented one of his most profound spiritual experiences, he could well have decided to circulate it only privately until he could feel certain that in relating it he would not receive again the general ridicule of France. I think.

1:45:20 So he's gun shy of that sort of response. The third reason this is interesting, Russ's unrolling. At first Joseph was reluctant to talk about his vision, the Angel. And he, quoting Joseph, the Angel of the Lord, says that we must be careful not to proclaim these things or to mention them abroad. He told his parents after one early version. Now clearly later, they were supposed to proclaim it abroad, but in the timing of the Lord, it wasn't time yet. Yeah #4 he was busy. Joseph Smith in 1841. This is later, but gives us some idea, He lamented.

1:46:01 Since I have been engaged in laying the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I have been prevented in various ways from continuing my journal and history in a matter satisfactory to myself or injustice to the cause. Long imprisonments, vexations, and long continued lawsuits, law, fair, the treachery of some of my clerks, the death of others, and the poverty of myself and brethren from continued plunder and driving, have prevented my handing down to posterity a connected memorandum of events desirable to all lovers of truth. Yet I have continued to keep up a journal in the best manner my circumstances would allow and dictate for my history from time to time as I have had opportunity, so that the laborers and suffering of the first elders and Saints of this last Kingdom might not wholly be lost to the world.

1:46:55 So that agrees perfectly with the 1832 account. Emma, I don't have anything to do. What should I do? And he starts already makes that first attempt. The history of the Church, begun in 1838, was the first fully organized attempt to place the events that are transpired in relation to the restoration of the gospel into a comprehensive and chronologically arranged arranged record. The fifth reason he didn't write it down right away. Record keeping was not a thing. The Smith family was a fairly normal agricultural family. They kept practical records like farmers would have to, but they didn't necessarily keep records about their past.

1:47:37 There doesn't seem to be much correspondence, though there is some evidence that there is some. In other words, the Smith family is not a literary family family. They're literate. They can read. They're not necessarily bookworms or writers or poets. It's as much an oral culture than it is a literature illiterate culture. Once Joseph Smith is receiving his visions, they are not written down at any time. He had no precedent for that until, and I have to tell you, I remember as a Deacon reading section 20 and studying 21 of 43 and over. And we see, as I cite here 123456 times in the Doctrine Covenants, as I counted 6 times, the Lord Himself commands, specifically commands them and calls people to keep records and says that it's critical.

1:48:39 And I thought to myself as a dumb Deacon, of all the things God can tell people to keep records. I mean, I hated writing back in the day. I didn't, I didn't understand that at all. And in section 43, verse one through three, he says, Behold, it is expedient, necessary in me that my servant John Whitmer should write and keep a regular history and assist you, my servant Joseph, and transcribes me all things which shall be given you until he is called to further duties. And again I say to you that it shall be appointed up to him to keep the church record and history continually for Oliver cadre. I have appointed to another office. I mean, to have A and that's that section. That section is devoted to that, a specific revelation from God about keeping stupid records.

1:49:38 And we now know why. But that was, that was a new thing that happened in 1830. And as soon as that revelation was given, suddenly they got busy trying to do that. I didn't, but nonetheless. He had quite a few scribes in in his life. Right In Joseph's life, I mean, it wasn't like Oliver was just always there, right? He, Oliver has his, has his, you know, dissolution with the church and, and have the various persecutions and whatnot. They're it's, it's hard and look, it's hard enough if you have to. I don't care what your job is, you come behind somebody, it is difficult to try to replicate what it is they've done. And so I can only imagine.

1:50:25 It's probably doubly so because a lot of times it's not like you could just ask the guy, hey, what were you thinking right here? So they got to pick it up. I, I can only imagine. And again, paper is expensive. And this is the thing we don't understand. Presentism clouds our view. Pen, right? Pen and paper. Quill and ink and paper back then was like an iPad for us today. And he was in poverty all the time. I mean, good grief, somebody had to donate papers so that they could translate the Book of Mormon. Right. Now, here's the other thing people will say. Oh, but everybody during the 1800s, during the burned over period, during this revivalism and all these charismatic religions, everybody was having visions and miraculous occurrences.

1:51:15 So Joseph Smith was not out of the ordinary. This is the response of scholars. Richard Bushman wrote a book about it analyzed other narratives of spiritual experiences contemporary to Joseph Smith. Bushman compared Joseph's 393839 account with reports of visionary conversion experiences in 32 pamphlets published in the United States. That's a lot between 1783 and 1815. Finding that the stylistic finding that the stylistic similarities, while interesting and plentiful in the end, only highlight the differences between Joseph and the host of now forgotten visionaries. For instance, these narratives of dreams and miraculous appearances did not imply the construction of any institutional form.

1:52:07 They did not propose doctrine. They did not proclaim commandments. They inspired awe at the presence of invisible powers made visible, but were on occasion to marvel rather than to act. We call those sign seekers. Right. Really great price. central.org Methodists of the day carefully. This is super interesting to me. I've always wondered Joseph Smith's language choice that I in reality did see a vision. Why was that significant? Because of this, Methodists of the day, which he would be very familiar with, carefully qualified the nature of their visionary experiences with phrases like by faith I saw or by affirming that it was just a dream. Most commonly, individual described their visions in ambiguous terms.

1:53:03 Whether in or out of the body, I could not tell. Joseph Smith, by contrast, affirmed unambiguously that it was the quote. It was nevertheless a fact that I had seen a vision, I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two personages, and they did in reality speak to me. Not in a dream. I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it. It was thus not necessarily a matter of what Joseph Smith experienced, but rather how he explained it. That's very distinctive.

1:53:43 He's doing the exact opposite of what Methodist culture of the time was doing. By being ambiguous, he's letting you know in no uncertain terms it was real. This, this, this happened. This went down and it went down. Like I said, it went down. Very interesting. The market differences noted by Bushman and another historian, Jones, are among the reasons why historians attempting to adequately situate Joseph Smith in the visionary culture of antebellum American Christianity continue to grapple with the task. In fact, so radical was the message of Joseph Smith's first vision that all existing Christian denominations were in apostasy and that the fullest of the gospel would be restored at the future time, that it was downright offensive to many in his generation.

1:54:34 Quote reports of visions and divine appearances were commonplace at the time, remarks the latter Day St. Historian Robert Remini in his biography of the Prophet Joseph. Merely claiming to have had a vision was not in and of itself problematic. But what was objectionable was the message of the First Vision, namely that all of the churches were wrong and an abomination in God's sight. Here then, was one of the 1st and most important reasons why Joseph came to be hated and reviled by ministers in the congregations. The charge that all other faiths were offensive to God in the preachers corrupt. The accusations, they argued, were not simply wrong and insulting, but damnable. He was unique in that regard.

1:55:18 You know, I mean, the other, the other people giving these miraculous events were giving these events for what purpose? Self aggrandizement, right. They, they don't want to put off the people they're sharing the events with. Joseph clearly was putting off people. He, although he cared about being persecuted, he wasn't trying to flatter anybody, clearly. How about that? So. I, I think, I think this is someplace where it's vitally important for context sake to understand two things out of out of this slide here. First, Rosa Smith is, and look, I'm not saying he understood this. I there's nothing there that that tells me at that young age when he's first letting this out that he's even cognizant of this. But in some ways he is challenging the livelihood of certain clergymen, Right.

1:56:13 Yeah. I mean, yeah. Wait, wait. You're, you're you can barely read. You can't form a coherent sentence. But me, a guy who's been to Oxford and. And. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Harvard and. And I've been educated to be a preacher. God chose you. No, I I could see where that'd be a rub. Yeah, for sure. The other thing, the other thing that that I want to point out here and, and we kind of brush this recently here, we, we, we talked about a little bit, but I think it's, it's worth repeating here that line that the Lord tells Joseph that they, that they were all that, that all their creeds were an abomination before him. The Lord there is no middle ground with that statement. Now I that doesn't mean that we doesn't mean we discount what other religions have that that is true. But I do think it's important that we note that the Lord was clear here.

1:57:21 If you believe Joseph Smith's first vision that that there there was doctrinally incorrect things there that must needs be fixed for a man to enjoy a fullness in relationship with deity. And then there's that whole authority thing. Yeah, that's part of it. Right. And so. I think like, but that's what appealed to me about Mormonism, right? OK, this one guy saw this and heard this. He kind of gives me the outline how to go get my own answers. I don't have to struggle with the uncertainties on the, the really vital things of how to enjoy, you know, the the opportunity to get back to my father and God and, and what happens to my family or me after death. But that can only grow out of a certain sense of certainty. And I think that's exactly what the Lord is pointing out when he says, look, we're going to fix some things here because everybody's got some incorrect doctrine here. I also want to point out that that doesn't mean that I think 1 certain group in Mormonism or one certain person has it all figured out all the time either, right? Because we're all still human.

1:58:45 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I want to qualify it that that doesn't mean that you're automatically 100% right because you're a Mormon. I think that there's a ton of growth that we have to do on this side, but nonetheless, the Lord has. The Lord was very clear on that, and I think that's worth pointing out. Yep, Yep, no man taketh this honor unto himself, save he that is called a God, as was Aaron, and that's that. That the New Testament script in Hebrews is a condemnation of all Protestants, you know. Yep. Yeah, not all Protestant people, but all Protestant faiths. And that's the thing.

1:59:27 We fully acknowledge the good that good people do in the world. And there is much, I mean, like my Barbary with all my, I got my haircut. We, we always have these wonderful conversations because this guy is relentless in his search for truth and his understanding of the holy Scripture. He's one of the most interesting people to talk to in my whole life. He was asking all sorts of questions about prophetic succession in our church, and now they're selected and all that sort of stuff. And when it was time to go, I said, said then you always ask the best questions. And he says, well, that's what I'm supposed to do, right? You know, that's what it's about. All right.

2:00:10 Now, here's Joseph Smith's perspective on what he experienced versus the other charismatic spiritual events of the day. Joseph Smith. The the things of God edify, and this is after the fact. He understands very clearly the difference between revelation and signs. For sign seekers, the things about edify. They spiritually support and lift us toward a better life. They bring us closer to our Heavenly Father. The things of Satan do the opposite. No spiritual growth occurs. No intelligence is communicated. We are not edified. He just described all the rest of those charismatic events, and then he describes them specifically.

2:00:54 Others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lie down, and during its operation animation is frequently entirely suspended. They considered to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God. A manifestation of what? Is there any intelligence communicated? Are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of a God developed? Have they seen and converse with an Angel, or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No, but their body has been inanimate. The operation of their spirit is suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise as a shot of glory, or Hallelujah, or some incoherent expression.

2:01:37 But they have had the power, Holy cow, he goes on. The shaker will whirl around on his heel, impelled by a supernatural agency or spirit, and think that he is governed by the Spirit of God, and the jumper will jump and enter to all kinds of extravagances. A primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit until he will render the heavens with his cries, while the Quakers or friends, moved as they think by the Spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all of this, if not all of it? Which does? Which does he recognize? Surely such a heterogeneous mass of confusion can never enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. You could spit some fire when you wanted to. Yeah, and here's a man who was clearly intimately acquainted with all of those manifestations, right? And spoken like a true prophet of God. Hits the nail on the head, says what is it? These are just useless sign seekers. They're looking for these sensational wowie things that don't have a thing to do with drawing closer to God, for helping you be a better person or giving you insight into your life or the heavens.

2:02:56 Right. And he did. The doctrines and he exploded upon this world are still mind boggling. Now there are those who say, well, the first vision is possible because the Bible says that no man has seen God at any time. Yeah, I love this one. So I just pulled up. Well, how many is that? I don't know 20 scriptures or so from the Bible explicitly stating that men have seen God. How does that square with no man has seen God any type from the scriptures. Well leave it to the Prophet Joseph Smith to answer that question. Doctrine Covenants Section 67, verses 10 through 13. And again rarely I say to you that it is your privilege, and this is God speaking, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that in as much so if you will strip yourselves from jealousies and fears and humble yourselves before me, for you are not sufficiently humble.

2:03:55 It's a purification process. The veil shall be rent, and you shall see me and know that I am not with the carnal, neither the natural mind. So not with our eyes of flesh, but with the spiritual. Why? For no man. Now here's the correction to the New Testament Scripture that was incomplete. No man has seen God at any time in the flesh except quickened by the Spirit of God. Quickened means to be made alive. Right. That's why the first vision is the vision.

2:04:35 It was his spirit. He saw that vision. God and the Father alive in spirit. And Even so, if your spirit is insufficiently pure, it will do to you what it did to Alma the Younger and Saul, later Paul. It'll almost kill you. Verse 13. You are not able to abide the presence of God now, nor neither the ministering of angels. So seeing God, you'd have to be your spirit, have to qualify for the celestial degree of purity to see the ministering of angels, to have to be of a terrestrial state. And until we get there, God communicates with us through the Holy Ghost, his Holy Spirit, which which is also dependent upon pure personal purity to the to the degree that we are pure, we will have an abundance of the Holy Spirit. Wherefore continue in patience until you are perfected. And I'm quite sure that the use of that word there is reliant upon the the New Testament usage of the word perfected, the Greek version of which is finished.

2:05:48 Right. Until you're finished. All right. Oh, OK, Here's a question for you. Comparing the first vision to the account of Muroni's visit. Very, very different with the Angel. And this, this always struck me. You read his account of the Angel Muroni and it is verbatim word for word and it's a lot. It was just Joseph was taking dictation. Why the difference?

2:06:30 Me, hold on, I got it. I In my opinion, I think Moroni is probably giving him direct instructions on things to do. Correct how many times? If we look at at Joseph's first vision, it's both personal. It does give some illusions that, hey, we're going to be doing some things later here, but it's, it's much more personal in nature here. Moroni is coming on, you know, on the Lord's errand and basically like, you need to do these things here.

2:07:13 That's all true, and I don't, I'm not quoting anybody. This is just something from the Book of Ken, which was super interesting to me. It kind of bothered me at first. It's like, this is weird. Why would Moroni wake him up three times to do this? Moroni appeared to him three times and told him exactly the same thing, like a broken record. Why? So that he wouldn't forget anything, you know? Oh, go ahead. Sorry, no you. What is What is Moroni's role in this particular vision? He's the instructor. Yes, the messenger.

2:07:56 And this is consistent with all of Scripture. Right. So God comes analysis and Gabriel announces to marry the birth of Christ. And then there did these messengers come to do all of the work. God himself doesn't do the messenger work. That's up to us. They're both resurrected beings in the spirit world and immortality. Very interesting to me because, I mean, you know, the scriptures that Moroni quotes to Joseph Smith are very like the Malachi scriptures are slightly different in extremely significant ways.

2:08:38 I love that, love that. Absolutely. I think it also, you know the fact it's three times, I think that has a lot of significance, right? You got it all over the Scriptures. Holy, holy, holy, right? Verily, thus saith the Lord. Verily, verily, verily, thus saith the word. There's something about the repetition of three that seems to carry some deep. Spiritual connotations that how many times, how many times do I have to hear somebody's name before I remember it? Three times. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. That's amazing. So what makes a convincing witness?

2:09:19 We talked a little bit about this with your law enforcement friend, and then we're going to talk here about how memory works. Joseph's account of his first vision represent the event as he experienced it both at both at the time and overtime. Because our perspective changes, most memory evaporates. Historian Stephen C Harper explained, wrote a beautiful book on this. But when we focus on something repeatedly, it is processed into a second memory. So, as if it's important enough, we keep going over it. Our memory gets clearer over time. Secondary memories are more stable over time and are strengthened by making emotional connections to our experiences. Long term memory is also improved when we are conscious that we are remembering.

2:10:06 This means that important events in our life can be more easily remembered, but peripheral details often become fuzzy or can slip from our minds all together. Like Joseph's first vision. What day it was, I don't know. I think it was in my 14th year. But how he felt and the significance of it never left him. Joseph Smith's account of the First Vision, remarks Harper abound with these attributes of memory, actual memory. Joseph indicated both strong emotional connections and a meta awareness indicative that he was deliberately and consciously remembering his feelings. In the stump, the acts in the stump, yeah, right. His feelings, awareness, that's where you are in a different, you're in a different state of being and it affects your consciousness, right.

2:10:58 So as he's looking around that meta awareness, I remember the axe in the stump, or in the case of Isaac Potts, I remember how Washington prayed there when something big happens. I love that word meta awareness, right? You are taking everything in. You are deliberate about what you're casting your eyes upon 'cause you know it's important. His feelings were deep and his mind became seriously impressed. This kind of And he's quoting him. This kind of language saturates his detailed accounts. Joseph's memories seem especially keen when they recall thoughts and the strong emotions he associated with them.

2:11:41 Joseph's accounts also illuminate the features of both factual memory, recollection of objective details, and interpretive memory, the meaning or significance that he assigned to the experience. Interpretive memories grow and change over time because they are shaped by events subsequent to the episode being remembered. So the details of the first vision didn't change, but their significance. They take on added significance as he changes. That's a feature of real memory. Thus, each of Joseph's accounts reflect different emphases and details, in part because they reflect what his vision meant to him at different stages in his life. That's genuine.

2:12:25 This does not mean what? This does not mean that Joseph was misremembering or making experiences up. Rather, it simply means that some recollections of his First Vision may not have been as marked and intense as Joseph later remembered them to have been. As Harper put it, an outward observer would not likely interpret these events as intensely as Joseph Smith subjectively did. To the contrary, the fact that Joseph's accounts bear all the hallmarks, including the limitations of human memory strongly suggests that these are authentic memories, meaning this is not a story Joseph just made-up or fabricated. He is remembering a real experience he had in the woods as a boy, Harper concludes.

2:13:13 Joseph created human memories of his first vision. They revealed vivid memories of elements of the experience that deeply impressed him. Anxious uncertainty prior to the theophany, the epiphany that resulted from reading and reflecting you know, that struck obstructed the heart of man more deeply than any other. The feeling of love and redemption from the Theophany. The reality of the vision itself. Interpretive and introspective memories are present as well. The accounts are not, by Joseph's own admission, A flawless recreation of the event, nor are they a complete fabrication of life events. Despite distortions and limits in recounting the experience, Joseph's accounts generally exhibit continuity, and that's over his lifespan. Moreover, they communicate to seekers Joseph's memories of how he experienced the Vision at the time and how he remembered it over time.

2:14:11 So the fact that it wasn't just the same rehearsed and story each time is indicative of the fact that it was a genuine event that he was still interpreting as he grew. This is one of the coolest things I've ever read regarding the first vision. The man in the painting is named Arthur Henry King. He was trained as a stylistician. Stylistician is a person who studies stylistics, the analysis of linguistic style, particularly in written texts. The man's British, the bastion of English poetry and writing, you know.

2:14:57 Few years back, I started to get the feeling that we, as fundamentalists and orthodox Mormons, we need our own stuff. Up to now, we've been able to buy and purchase all of our scriptures, books, art, and music from other restoration organizations, and that's been good. But there's no guarantee it's going to remain that way. Also, it can be a bit tricky to scour the Internet trying to find all the books from your favorite fundamentalist or orthodox Mormon authors. As I thought about this, I feel like I was really given a solution now through the hard work of others, because let's face it, I'm the guy least qualified in all the world to build a website. I'm happy to present to you 1830 mercantile.org. Right now on the website you can see that we have all the books that have ever been written by 4 authors, including names like Drew, Briny and Ogdenkraut. Also very soon there will be a link to buy art and music all produced by Mormons with a deep love for the restored gospel. There's also places for you to get free resources where you can find podcast videos, classes, and other presentations. Also coming very soon there will be a place for events where you can list the events from your organization so that you can get the most out of that attendance.

2:16:10 Now this can be as big as you want it to be. It's all up to you guys out there if you want to buy and post things on here. Now, if you're someone who produces something that you feel like others can benefit from, 1830 Mercantile is a place where you can make all of those products available for purchase. All you need to do is drop me an e-mail at mormonrenegade@gmail.com and put 1830 in in the title of that e-mail with a short message and either myself or someone else from the 1830 Mercantile team will reach out to you so we can get your product up there on the site. Now to make sure that all the products that we offer are affordable and to ensure that the vast majority of the profits go to the producer, the website percentage is only three to 4% of the total cost.

2:16:59 And that's just so I can pay the pros that have created this website and keep the lights on the website itself. Finally, by making some of your purchases at 1830 mercantile.org, you'll be supporting folks whose principles and morals are close, if not the same as yours. At the same time not giving your money away to people who stand against everything you stand for. So no matter if you're looking to make a purchase or you're a seller that wants to get your products listed, head on over to 1830 mercantile.org today. Drop me an e-mail and we'll make sure that we get back out to you. Now back to the show. Shakespeare, saucer, all that stuff this man would know. They analyze how language is used to create meaning and effect, focusing on the specific choices of words, grammar, and sentence structure that define a particular text or author. A stylistician uses tools from linguistics to examine both literary and non literary works to understand how style is constructed and how it influences interpretation. Get a load of his life.

2:18:01 Born in England to Quaker parents, Arthur Henry King, born 1910, died 2000. What a lifespan. Graduated with the University of Cambridge in 1931. Went on to earn his doctorate from the University of London, Sweden. He taught English and English literature for 14 years at the universities Inland and Stockholm. For 28 years he served on the British Council, which supervises overseas educational and cultural affairs for the British government. He was twice decorated by Queen Elizabeth, the Second for his work. Then in 1966, he joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Wow, and in 1971 joined the faculty the Brigham Young University Go Cougs.

2:18:53 Following his retire from BYU, he presided over the London England Temple of the Church. He's seen some stuff. Yeah, yeah, he's got, he's got quite a resume. Get this. This is what he says about First Vision. When I was first brought to read Joseph Smith's story, I was deeply impressed. I wasn't inclined to be impressed. As a stylistician. I have spent my life being disinclined to be impressed. So when I read his story, I thought to myself, this is an extraordinary thing.

2:19:34 This is an astonishingly matter of fact and cool account. This man is not trying to persuade me of anything. And this, this rings so true to me because I felt the same. Anyway, he doesn't feel the need to. He is stating what happened to him, and he is stating it not enthusiastically, but in quite a matter of fact way. He is not trying to make me cry or feel ecstatic. Think about it. That struck me and that began to build my testimony, for I could see that this man was telling the truth. He goes on.

2:20:16 I am not good enough to write a passage as good as that. That is beautiful. He's speaking as an expert on poetry. Well balanced prose. And it isn't the prose of someone who is trying to work it out and make it nice. It is the prose of someone who is trying to tell it like it is, who is bending all his faculties to expressing the truth and not thinking about anything else. And above all, the writing about Joseph Smith, not thinking about Joseph Smith, not thinking about the effect he's going to have on others, not posturing, not posing, but just being himself.

2:21:03 There's no self aggrandizing in any of it. There never is in his writing. He was on to say, there is no passage in mystical literature or in any other kind of literature concerned with visions that I know of, which is like this, and therefore I am not prepared to give credence to other mystical passages outside the Scriptures. I know the difference. I am thinking about Saint Bridget, who lived in Sweden in the 14th century and whose life I have studied in some detail. She had her ecstatic visions. I'm thinking about Saint Teresa, that great Spanish St. He wasn't quite sure whether Christ was her Lord or her husband. They don't compare with Joseph Smith, they added. They attitude.

2:21:52 Attitude denies they get into postures, contortions of mind and expressing themselves. Not so Joseph Smith, he concludes by saying. Think of Joseph Smith as a man who speaks to our time from eternity. Wow. So when you read his revelations and even his musings about it, it's they're not the thoughts of the average of a, of a man, they're above the thinking of man. And to hear it so eloquently from someone who knows this stuff, that was extraordinary to me. Oh yeah, this is a guy who's used to being able. You know it.

2:22:34 It sounds like from based on what? A stylist is a stylistician. Excuse me? This is a guy who who looks for the subtle nuances of the way one speaks or rights. It's going to pick up on what your end goal is, right? And so at the top, he says. I spent my life being disinclined to be impressed. Right. Yeah. So, so in Joseph's case, he's not picking up any of the stuff that you would expect anybody else that somebody else would if you're trying to to pose or posture or have an ulterior motive for the story you're telling. Or I would say no, no sign of trying to manipulate the reader.

2:23:19 Right. He's telling it straight. Nice. OK, here we are at the end. You made it. The end here is entitled. So what? What really happened in the first vision? And I'm going to give you 3 things that kind of blow this wide open. This is the full Orson Pratt account where he describes the light. He Joseph continued praying while the light appeared to be gradually descending toward him.

2:24:02 As it drew nearer, it increased in brightness and magnitude. So by the time it reached the tops of the trees, the whole wilderness for some distance around was illuminated in a most glorious and brilliant manner. He expected to have seen the leaves and boughs of the trees consumed as soon as the light came in contact with them, but perceiving that it did not produce that effect, he was encouraged with the hopes of being able to endure its presence. It continued descending slowly until it rested upon the earth, and he was enveloped in the midst of it. When it first came upon him, it produced a peculiar sensation throughout his whole system, and immediately his mind was caught away from the natural objects with which he was surrounded, and he was enwrapped in a heavenly vision and saw two glorious personages who exactly resemble each other in their features or likeness. That sensation that he describes, it's probably what it feels like to be quickened in the spirit. So Ken, I something else just jumped out at me here that I I probably read that one part 1000 times and it never hit me till just now.

2:25:13 When Moses goes up to the mount and he sees the burning Bush. How does he describe it? It's on fire, but it's not. But it's not burning. Yeah. What does Joseph say there? Same thing. Same thing. I find a striking piece of information that corresponds with another from thousands of years back. Dave is just just another one of them coincidences, those pesky. Well, here's the thing too, about all of this, about Joseph Smith's experiences and his teachings, that they are consistent, all of it.

2:25:54 And there's precedent in Old Testament, New Testament Scripture, and I have to mention my book and in hundreds, hundreds, thousands. Of extra Mormon doctor in the Apocrypha, Mormon Mormon doctrine in the apocrypha. That's right, that's right. I got that. But it's such a great book. Everybody should go to Amazon and just grab Mormon Mormonism in the Apocrypha. Mormon doctrine. Kind of like Mormon doctrine in the Apocrypha. I it it I'm tipping my hat to Bruce Mcconkey's Mormon doctrine. That's which is not perfect, but wow was it ahead of its time anyway. And here's the verse we kind of skip over in the official account, verse 20, He God again forbade me or Christ to join with any of them and many other things that He's saying to me which I cannot write at this time and to our knowledge never did.

2:26:57 And when I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength, but soon, recovering to some degree, I went home. Here's the funny part. And as as I leaned up to the fireplace, Mother inquired. But the matter was, I replied, never mind, all is well, I am well enough off. Then I said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. That's the first time he told anything. Even they hinted at what he'd been through. And here's the other thing, the 1835 account, a pillar of fire appeared above my head. That's different from 1838, where he said pillar of light. We'll talk about that which presently rested down upon me and filled me with unspeakable joy. A light filling you with joy.

2:27:52 A personage appeared in the midst of the pillar of flame. Pillar of flame now, which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed. There you are again, Moses. Another personage soon appeared like unto the first. He said unto me, Thy sins have forgiven me. He testified also unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I saw many angels in this vision. That's that's crazy in two respects. The 1832 account to Joseph's handwriting. He gets to as he gets to the vision, he wrote that he saw a pillar of fire. But then he stops writing for a while and before he continues the account, he crossed out the word fire and inserted the word light.

2:28:45 The finished sentence then read a pillar of light above the brightness of the sun that noonday came down from above and rested on me. He replaced fire with light. And it's only in reading the manuscript that we can detect this moment, which Joseph struggled to know which word to use to describe the light that descended from heaven. Why was it such a big deal? Because he's trying to describe it accurately. The speaker goes on. What I think we, what I think we see here is the difficulty Joseph experienced in describing his first vision. How do you describe the light that's brighter than any light you've ever seen? How do you describe the divine within the constraints of mortal language, which he struggled with throughout all of his scripture?

2:29:26 Joseph described his exact struggle in a letter he wrote to W Phelps about this about the same time. In that 1832 letter, he lamented the difficulty of right of the writing process for describing the sights, sounds, and feelings of visions and revelations. He described the writing process as quote, a little narrow prison, almost as it were, total darkness of paper and pen and ink and crooked, scattered, imperfect language which inevitably failed to live up to the experience. And who? Who? Could possibly understand that other than the person who would actually experienced it, who would complain about? Yeah, no.

2:30:10 And, and, and again, that would track, right? With that type of a vision that totally tracks that you would just be at odds at trying to get to convey the appropriate feelings that would accompany that. For Joseph Smith, writing was hard in the 1st place. It was even harder when writing about divine visions. In the different accounts of the First Vision, then we see varied language to tell a consistent story, also a sign of truthfulness. And we often see Joseph working to find just the right words to describe what he had experienced, which brings us to fire, etcetera. In this book Mormon Doctrine in the Apocrypha, pages 142 to page 155 are all of the extra canonical references I can find relative to this phenomena describing this pillar of light.

2:31:08 And notice it's called various things in these different accounts called A pillar of light, a cloud of light, a conduit of light, a light stream, a pillar of fire, streams of flaming fire, stream of light, tongues of fire, and glorious portals. They're all describing the same phenomenon. And it seeing those various subscriptions kind of helps us understand what the heck that is. So personally speaking, having read practically all of the recorded theophanies and ancient sacred texts which I have, the above citation in my book includes 30, no less than 31 examples of sacred texts where in all of those above terms are used to try to describe the same indescribable manifestation of the power of God.

2:32:13 So Joseph's struggle is identical to the ancient prophets. Yeah, he's he's treading familiar ground to to his prophetic calling. So like when I read that, you know, fire or light, I'm going, wow, that sounds familiar. In that same section, there are 17 of those examples from these ancient texts wherein the appearance of angels and heavenly beings accompany the pillar of light. That is also perfectly consistent with ancient sacred texts now. As make does make you wonder now about the the the pillar of fire that was seen following the children of Israel too.

2:32:56 You think? Or the pillar of fire that landed upon the altar in front of Lehigh. Or the pillar of light that freed Alma in prison and didn't burn him and didn't harm him? Change him a little bit. Now, we could be done here, depending, or we could actually read those extra canonical accounts about the Pillar of Light and the accompanying angels. Let's do that. So I didn't have I didn't have a chance to put that in that. So I'm just this is straight from my my notes. So first Phoenix 49, the first one here, and I saw the sons of the holy angels walking upon the flame of fire. He's describing that the flame of fire is transporting them. Their garments were white and their overcoats and the light of their faces was like snow.

2:33:54 Where have we heard that before? Good job Joseph 3rd in it page 278, the cherubim stand beside the holy creatures, and their wings are raised. The cherubim are also when they talk about the vision of the throne of God. These cherubim are always there, just like on the mercy seat right and the holy holy seat, and their wings are raised up to the height of their heads. The Shekinah. The Shekinah is the veil of light, otherwise known as the glory of the Lord, that fills the temple whenever Jehovah's there. Right. Pillar of light. Pillar of fire, anybody? Cloud of light, the Shekinah. The Shekinah rests upon the backs of the cherubim. This is I I haven't quite figured this out because the chairman also significant in transporting people, even the Savior, which is why he sits on the mercy seat. The Shekinah rests.

2:34:50 The whole pillar of light rests on their backs, and the splendor of the glory is on their faces and song and praise are in their mouths. They're they're great singers. Apparently their hands are under their wings and their feet are covered by their wings. The horns of glory are on their head. Horns of glory are radiating light. The brilliance of the shakena is on their countenances. In the shakena that's upon their backs, sapphire stones surround them. Pillars of fire are on their four sides. Pillars of flame flank them. So when we are having a view of the throne of God, the pillar of fire, pillar of flame is all around. It gets better.

2:35:42 Apocalypse of Elijah page 750 On that day the Christ will pity those who are his own, and he will send from heaven his 64,000 angels, each of whom has 6 wings which is most likely symbolic. The sound will move heaven and earth, and they give praise and glorify. Now those upon whose forehead is the name of Christ is written, and upon whose hand is the seal, both the small and the great, will be taken up upon their wings and lifted up before His wrath.

2:36:24 Then Gabriel and Uriel will become a pillar of light leading them into the Holy Land. It will, it will be granted to them to eat from the tree of Life which accompanies the white. Oh yeah, and there's that white garment thing. They will wear white garments and angels will watch over them. They will not thirst, nor will the Son of lawlessness be able to prevent over them. So presence of God, Shakina, Tree of life, all are a part of this, the pillar of life, this cloud of light. That one was dripping with temple imagery. Oh, you're just seeing things. Yeah.

2:37:05 Behold, Apocalypse of Peter, page 635. And behold, there came suddenly a voice from heaven saying, This is my son, whom I love and in whom I have pleasure and my commands. We've discovered a fifth account, the Father announcing the son. Holy cow. Yeah, that one. That is interesting where the Father introduces the Son. This is my son. And there came a great and exceeding white cloud over our heads, and bore away our Lord, and Moses and Elias. It transports them again. And I trembled and was afraid. And we looked up, and the heavens opened, and we saw men in the flesh.

2:37:45 So accompanying this cloud, this pillar of light, they saw men in the flesh. And they came and greeted our Lord and Moses and Elias, and went into the 2nd heaven. We would say angels and the word of the Scripture was fulfilled. This generation seeketh him and seeketh the face of the God of Jacob. And great fear and great amazement took place in heaven, and the angels flocked together that the word of the Scripture might be fulfilled, which saith open the gates. See Princess, So angels, they love to be there for these celebratory events. I think of the birth of the Savior. Right. Glory to God in the highest. But you would look. He's on a goodwill toward men. To one of Joseph's other other one of the things he said he saw in the first vision, you know, concourses of angels sort of speak, sort of say it would make sense, right?

2:38:36 If the veil is now burst upon the earth and the restoration has begun, that's probably only second in importance to the birth of the Savior. Yeah, well, I would, I would include the resurrection at the very top, then the birth. Well, second. Yeah, but restoration for sure, for sure. OK, Open the gates. He Princess. After that the heaven was shut that had been opened and we prayed and went down for the mountain and we pray. So this is the mount of this is a different description of the mount of fence figuration. So it's not a new one. It's one of the three where God announces His Son who has written the names of the righteous in heaven, the Book of Life, the Apocalypse of Thomas.

2:39:22 Oh, this is a wonderful new prophecy of the second coming new to us. And at the 4th hour of the 6th day there will be a great voice in heaven. The firmament of heaven will be split from east to West, and Angel and the angels of the heavens will look out on the earth through the rents in the heavens. And all men who are on earth will see the angelic coast looking out from heaven. Then all men will flee into the tombs and hide themselves from before the righteous angels, and say, oh, that the earth would open and swallow us. That's straight out of the Book of Mormon. Yep. For such things will happen as never happened since this world was created.

2:40:05 Then they will see me as I come down from heaven, in the light of my Father, fill of light, and the power and honor of the holy angels. It's all there. Then at my arrival, the restraint on the fire of Paradise will be loosed as the shechena or Paradise is enclosed with fire. And this is the eternal fire which devours the earthly globe and all the elements of the world. This is how the earth will be purified. Then the spirits and souls of the Saints will come forth from Paradise and come into all the earth, and each go to its own body where it is laid up.

2:40:47 And each of them will say, Here my body is laid up. And when the great voice of those spirits is heard, there will be an earthquake everywhere in the earth, and the force of that earthquake in the mountains will be shattered above the rocks beneath. Then each spirit will return to its own vessel, and the bodies of the Saints who sleep will rise. Then their bodies will be changed into the image and likeness and honor of the holy angels and the power of the image of My Holy Father. Then they will put on the garment of eternal life, the garment from the cloud of light which has never been seen in this world. For this cloud comes down from the upper Kingdom of the heavens by the power of My Father, and will invest with its glory every spirit that has believed in Me.

2:41:36 Then they will be clothed, and, as I said to you before, born by the hands of the holy angels. Oh, there, that's again. Then they will be carried off in a cloud of light into the air. Here we go again, transporting us and rejoicing. Go with me into the heavens, and remain in the light and honor of my Father. Then there will be great joy for them in the presence of my Father and in the presence of the holy angels. These are the signs of the 6th day. So he then laid the body of our Father Adam in his place, and said to Melchizedek, Take from Shem the bread and the wine. And he took them as the Angel told him to do. Oh, bread and wine, the Melchizedek. And action, yeah.

2:42:16 Stood praying by the body of our Father Adam until the evening when a great light came down upon the body, and angels ascended and descended in that place. Huh. There we go again upon the body of our Father Adam. And they were rejoicing and praising and saying, Glory be to the O God, we just create the world's plural, and made his men of the dust of the earth to exalt them above heavenly beings. That's not Mormon doctrine. I don't know what it is. The angels thus praised God over the body of our Father Adam and the whole of that city. Angels love to celebrate this whole plan. It's crazy.

2:43:01 The whole of the night until the dawn of the day. But as the sun rose, the word of God came from Lechizik, and said to him, Arise and take 12 of these stones, and make an altar, and offer upon it the bread and wine that was with Shem, and offer them thou and he. And while Mechezdek heard the word of God, he worshipped between his hands, and he hastened, and did as God commanded him. And at at the time he was offering the gift upon the altar, and asked God to sanctify, the Holy Ghost came down on the offering, and the mountain was filled with light. Hmm Shekinah Holy Ghost. And the Angel said unto him, This offering is acceptable unto God, glory be to him, and created earthly man, and has revealed great mysteries unto them. Then the word of God appeared to Melchizedek and said unto him, Behold, I have made thee priest, and thou and Shem shall offer this offering thou didst make 1st and in like manner, as thou didst set up these 12 solid foundation stones, I will raise 12 apostles to be the pillars of the world, and they are firm in like manner also.

2:44:05 This is all Old Testament stuff prophesying of Christ. It's a huge section in my book. Where was I Allah in the light manner? Also, as thou didst make this altar, I will make thee an altar in the world, and like as thou didst make an offering of bread and wine. What does the altar represent? Jesus, I will make thee an altar in the world, and like as thou didst make an offering bread. And why? I will present the offering of my body and blood, first person who speaketh Jehovah, Jesus, and make it to be unto forgiveness of sins.

2:44:47 At this place on which thou art standing in, and in which the body of Adam is laid, will I make a holy place. All creatures on earth shall be blessed in it. And now I and in it I will grant forgiveness unto all who come. Hit her. His crucifixion. Then the word of God blessed Melchizedek, named him priest, then went up from him into heaven in glory and rejoicing with his angels. Yeah, that's his problem. The Dead Sea Scrolls thing. I'm going to read you here. The Dead Sea Scrolls. Whenever you see those ellipses, those dots, that means there was a hole in the manuscript.

2:45:30 Praise the God of exalt him, God the glory in the Tabernacle of the God of knowledge. The cherubim fall before him and bless him. As they arise, the quiet voice of God is heard, followed by a tumult of joyous praise. As they unfold their wings, God's quiet voice, still small voice is heard again. The cherubim bless the image of the chariot throne. So these these orbits. I had that figured out once. I'm still working on that. That appears above the firmament. Then they joyously acclaim the splendor of the luminous firmament that spreads beneath his glorious seat.

2:46:14 So it's all around. As the wheel beings advance, Holy angels come and go. Between his chariot. Throne's glorious wheels appears something like an utterly holy spiritual fire. All around are what appear to be streams of fire resembling electrum, lightning and shining handiwork, comprising wondrous colors embroidered together, pure and glorious, the spirits of the living God like beings. Mormon Doctrine move to and fro, perpetually following the glory of the wondrous Chariots. I think it's the orbits of the world, and that's where they're going to and from.

2:47:05 A quiet voice of blessing accompanies the tumult of their movement, and they bless the Holy One each time they retrace their steps. When they rise up, they do so wondrously, and when they settle down, they stand still. The sound of joyous rejoicing falls silent, and the quiet blessing of God spreads through all the camps of the divine beings. This is like the Grand Central Station of the Servants of God. Right, transporting. Oh yeah, a lot of bouncing in between worlds, so to speak. Transporting to and fro via these streams of light, these pillars of light. As he scrolls, a voice of blessing comes from all of his divisions, telling of his glorious firmaments, and his gates prays with the joyful noise when the wise divine beings enter through glorious portals. And when the holy angels go forth to their realms, the portals through which they enter and the gates through which they exit declare the glory of the king, blessing and praising all the God like spirits each time they exit or answer through the holy gates.

2:48:18 So this is an intelligent light. Right. Pistol Apostolorum. And after he Jesus had said this, and had ended the discourse with his apostles, he said again to us, Look, after three days and three hours he who sent me will come, that I may go with him. And as he spoke, there was Thunder and lighting, and an earthquake in the heavens divided, and a bright cloud came and took him away. And the voice said, many angels, as they rejoiced and praised, and said, Assemble us, O priest, in the light of glory, Speaking of Christ. And when he had come near to the firmament of heaven, we heard him say, Go in peace. I think this is the in the book of Acts, Christ's descent. And an Angel announced He shall return it like men. Interesting.

2:49:13 Joseph and Assanet, One of my favorite ancient Old Testament texts. Assanet is the bride of Joseph. This is before they got married. This is Austin at recognizing that Joseph was a part of God's faithful as she wasn't, so she repented sackcloth and ashes, and then this is what happened to her an Austin. It kept looking, and behold, close to the morning star, the heaven was torn apart, and great and unutterable light appeared. And Asanet, Asanet saw it and fell on her face in the ashes. And a man came to her from heaven via that light and stood by Asanet's head.

2:49:59 And he called her. And he said, Asanet, I called her my name. The rest of the story is even better. He washes her, anoints her with oil, gives her a new name and a holy garment, partakes of a sacrament with her, and who her new name that he gives her is city of refuge which I think only Mormons get because all the the the people of the world will be housed under her. Because her children are Ephraim and Manasseh, all of the non Israelites will be adopted into the House of Ephraim.

2:50:43 I'm sure it's just a, I'm sure it's just a coincidence. There's no way that, yeah, I mean. When I read this stuff, I can't even believe it sometimes. It's like, how does that happen? Here's pistol Sophia again. Our favorite pistol Sophia is loaded with it came to pass. Loaded. It came to pass therefore that the power which had come out of the height, that is I, Jesus Christ, and that my Father sent me to save Pistus Sophia. Pistus Sophia was a a divine being, a terrestrial being who wanted to descend to the heights and be like God, and in the process ended up going into a telestial world where Satan and his host were trying to steal her power.

2:51:29 Sound familiar? And so she cried out for help, and God sends His light stream and servants to rescue her and to quicken her and to resurrect her and take her into His presence. It's a beautiful thing and the the apparently the forces of evil have 0 defense against the pillar of light. It sent me to save Mississippi out of the chaos. The world that I therefore, and also the power of which did go for me and the soul which I have received, had received. They drew toward one another and become a single light stream which shone very, which shone very exceedingly. I called on Gabriel and Michael out of the eons, and I gave unto them the light stream.

2:52:21 He bequeathed them this power and let them go down into the chaos to help Pistus Sophia. And straight away, when they had brought down the light stream into the chaos, it shone most exceedingly in the whole of a chaos and spread itself over all their regions. And when the emanations of the Self willed Satan, that senator, they call them the Self willed, he's not finding the will of the Father. It's all about His will. And I'd seen the great light of the stream. They were terror stricken one with another. And the emanations of self willed could not dare to lay hold of that light stream in the dark chaos, nor could they lay hold of it with the art of the devil himself who ruleth over the emanations.

2:53:06 And Gabriel and Michael led the light stream over the body of the matter of piss of Sophia. The pillar of light descended on her body and poured into her all the light powers which the wicked they had taken from her, restored her life. It quickened her, and the body of her matter became shining throughout. And Michael. So she's changed. And Michael and Gabriel, who ministered and had brought the light stream into the chaos, will give them the mysteries of light, the ordinances, mysteries, ordinances, same thing. Right. Yep. And the lights which reported epistle quick into the body for matter. This is Sophie again, Apostle Peter says. And the word which thy Jesus Christ power has spoken, when they, Michael and Gabriel, had poured the lights in epistle, they quicken the body for matter, which is the point of perishing.

2:54:05 And again, the word Wichita spoken, they are saved through water of life eternal. That is, they are saved through the whole light stream. Wow. I am the water, I'm the bread and the water of life. Yep. Whoever drinketh of this will never thirst. Talking about eternal life and literally the light stream is the water of life, life eternal. It's the means of changing and purifying our bodies. It's crazy. Pisses Sophia I Jesus Christ again St. Gabriel Michael and the great light stream that they should help pisses Sophia.

2:54:49 And moreover, a light stream which surrounded pisses Sophia and all her side shall most exceedingly, and pisses Sophia boat in the midst of the light, and a great light being on her left and her right and on all her sides, forming a wreath around her head. Temple symbolism. Anybody and all the emanations of the self willed could not bear the shock of the great light of the stream. Bisphia and he who will receive the One. And so this is after Piso Sophia. This is now Christ teach. So the account of Sophia is the first third of the book. Piso Sophia.

2:55:30 The last two thirds is Jesus answering questions of his disciples. Got you. So now he's answering the questions about the mysteries, the ordinances, and he who will receive the one and only word of that ordinance, which I, Jesus Christ, shall now say unto you, and all of its types and figures, and the manner of accomplishing its mystery. For you are perfected, You're finished and all perfect, and ye will accomplish the whole knowledge of that ordinance with its whole economy, or unto you all mysteries, ordinances are entrusted hearken.

2:56:15 Therefore, now that I may tell you that mystery, which is oh, they don't, they don't write it down in that case. They leave it out on purpose because it's it's name that you shouldn't be uttered outside. He then who shall receive the one and only word of that mystery which I have told you, if He cometh forth out of the body of matter of the rule, rulers mean you die. And if the retributive receivers come and free him, Retributive receivers are we, We would call them angels of death. All right, Free him from the body. Matters of the rulers, that is, those receivers who free the body all out, who free from the body all outgoing souls. When therefore the retributive receivers free the soul which hath received this one and only mystery of the ineffable, which I've just told you, then it will straight away, if it be set free from the body of matter, that spirit become a great light stream.

2:57:18 So if you've if you've made these covenants and you're true to them, when you die, you will become a part of the light stream, and the receivers will be the angels of death will be exceedingly afraid of the light of that soul. And the receivers will be made powerless and fall down and desist altogether for fear of the great light which they have seen. And that soul which receiveth the mystery of the ineffable will soar into the height, being a great light stream, and the receivers will not be able to seize it, and will not know how the way is fashioned upon which it will go. For it becometh a great light stream and source into the height, and no power is able to hold it down at all, nor will they be able to come nigh it at all. But it will pass through all the regions of the rulers and the regions.

2:58:04 So this is the ultimate mystery, the ultimate missed ordinance and the rulers and all the regions of the emanations of light, And it will not give answers in any region. So the the angels that stand as Sentinels, the guards that right, if you've already made these covenants, they stand aside and will not give answers in the spirit, will not have to give answers in any region because they'll have no power over it. It's already made those covenants, nor giveth it any apologies, nor giveth it any tokens. Neither will any power of the rulers nor any power of the emanations of the light be able to come nigh into that soul. But all the regions of the rulers and all the regions of the emanations of the light, everyone singeth unto it praises in their regions, in fear or out of respect for the light stream which envelops that soul, until it passes through them all and goeth into the region of the inheritance, the celestial of the Mystery which it hath received, that is the Mystery of the one and only ineffable Christ, and until it becometh 1 with its lens, meaning we become part of the body of Christ. Amen.

2:59:25 I say unto you, it will be in all the regions in the time a man shooteth an arrow. So all these Ndes people die, and then they go, Oh, there's this tunnel of light, and I went through the tunnel of light. This is how the Pissus Sophia describes that tunnel of light. It tracks right? It absolutely tracks it. Becomes a light stream and your spirit will travel from earth. Chaos to the region of the celestial in the time it takes for a man to shoot an arrow. How cool is that? Oh boy, that even matches some stuff that that the Egyptians had taught right. Oh well, for sure that you're, you're, you're thrusted out into the I believe it was towards Orion's belt, but nonetheless this, this idea of being shot out quickly.

3:00:19 And, and we also hear this in Ndes, we there's a lot going on here with this pillar of light that seems to be very indicative of what Joseph experiences certainly. It's everywhere and this is this is my favorite section of my book. When it talks about all this stuff, it really fills in some missing pieces of this. Absolutely. Now, therefore, Amen. I say to you, every man who will receive that mystery of the ineffable and accomplish it in all its types and figures, he is a man in the world, but he towers above all angels, and will tower still more above them all. Wow. Thank you Jesus, this is Sophia again. We're almost done.

3:01:03 The Savior answered and said it to Mary. Mary asked a lot of questions. Mary Magdalene, if they receive the mystery when still in life, and if they come out of the body, they become light beams and light streams, and penetrate all the regions until they reach the region of their inheritance, your eternal reward. But if they are sinners and come out of the body and have not repented, and if you perform for them the Mr. of the ineffable, in order that they might be removed. So she talked about vicarious work. Right, she's talking about work for the dead. But these are unrepentant that they may be removed. So if you do vicarious work for the people who have not repented, if you perform the mystery of the ineffable, try to get them removed.

3:01:54 Out of all the chastises to be cast into a righteous body, which is good, and in hair select Kingdom was brought into the last order of the light, then they will not be able to penetrate the regions, because they do not perform the mystery themselves. They're unrepentant, but the receivers of Melchizedek follow them and lead them before the Virgin of Light, and the servitors of the judges of the rulers make frequent haste to take those souls and hand them over from one to the other until they lead them before the Virgin of Light spirit. So they have to make that repentance. Instead of going straight to the Kingdom of Light, they have to pass these kingdoms as they make repentance. Revelation of Magi.

3:02:36 The Revelation of Magi is the first hand account of the wise men. I was going to. Translate if that's what they referred to as as magi there if that was them. This account is an ancient Syriac document discovered in the Vatican Library, translated into English for the first time in history in 2007. So Joseph would have had total access. To that by a Harvard Divinity Stuart student named Brent Landau. I think that's right from Flagstaff, who was always curious about it and he personally recognizes the similarities it has with LDS teachings. I was got you.

3:03:24 I emailed and said this is awesome. And when we bathed in the spring of purific, these are the 12 wise men waiting for the sign, the star. And we ascended the mountain of victories, which is where Adam's body and the scriptures, the book of Seth and and the treasures. And we went up and found that pillar of light in front of The Cave. That's Brent's. He's not a Mormon translating pillar of light. And again the great fear came upon us, and we knelt upon our knees and stretched out our hands according to our ancient custom.

3:04:07 Like it. Yeah. Yeah, I know where you're going. And we praised in silence the vision of its wonders. And again we saw that heaven had been opened like a great gate, and men of glory carrying the star of light upon their hands. According to the revelation of the Magi, the new star was the pillar of light. Interesting. Which is why it let it could lead them to where the Christ child lay, and it actually helped transport them. Which is why even though they were probably from China or something like that, they could travel to Jerusalem in time to see the newborn child, the newborn date. And they descended and stood upon the pillar of light. There we go again, these angels, treading upon this in a manner speaking, be transported by.

3:05:02 And the entire mountain was filled by its light, which cannot be uttered by the mouth of humanity like Joseph. And something like the hand of a small person drew near in our eyes from the pillar in the star at which we could not look, and it comforted us. And we saw the star into The Cave of treasures of hidden mysteries, and The Cave shown beyond measure. And a humble and kind voice made itself heard by us, which called out to us and said to us, Enter inside without doubt in love, and see a great and amazing vision. And we were encouraged and comforted by the message of the voice. And we entered being afraid, and we bowed our knees at the mouth of The Cave because of the very abundance of the light. And when we arose at this command, we lifted our eyes and saw that light which is unspeakable by the mouth of human beings. When the light pillar of light first appeared to them, you know what they saw in the light?

3:05:51 Jesus Christ who had appeared to them via the pillar of light to announce His own birth, just like he did in the Book of Mormon. Pretty cool trick. Second book of Yeu, last one, the piss of Sophia says. So I'm telling you about these ordinances. If you want to know the specifics of the details of how to do them, and it refers by name, refer to the books of Yeu Jeu. And we have those two. And that's basically a temple script. Really. Among other things, page 118 you yourselves, Jesus is speaking, My disciples, if you have received these mysteries, ordinances, when you are about to come forth from the body, you will become pure light, and you will hasten upward 1 after another, and go forth to the places in which all the eons are spread out, until you reach the treasury of light. Celestial.

3:06:52 Then the watchers of the gates of the treasury of light see the mystery of the forgiveness of sins which you have performed that ordinance, and they see the seal on your foreheads sign, and they see the cipher in your hands. Interesting. Then the nine watchers open to you the gates of the treasure of light, and you go into the treasury of Light. Good night everybody. So Joseph is definitely in, in his description of this pillar of light and what he sees in, in all of his accounts, right? It it's definitely holding water in terms of some things that we find later that we're not in Joseph's reach and.

3:07:38 None of these. They're ancient texts that only discovered the better part of 100 years after his death. Correct, he had no access to them. He was close to being able to have First Enoch, but as you can see, First Enoch is pretty tame compared to the rest of this stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So to wrap this up, I got one question I do want to ask and, and it's, it's the one we get beat up the most with. With Joseph's first vision in his 1832 account, it is he makes mentions that he sees Jesus Christ only and that's the one that they tend to beat us up with the most.

3:08:27 Ken, what's your thoughts on that? Why is it that way? I I would like to get your input on that. Let's go to that. Let me see everyone find which. There we go, girl. Great price Central. Did both the father and son appear to Joseph Smith in the First Division? In the earliest extant first hand account of his vision, Joseph did not explicitly specify that two personages appeared to him, but rather that first, the Lord opened the heavens quote UN quote, the Lord opened the heavens upon him, and second, he saw the Lord. This has LED some historians to wonder how, if at all, this might be reconciled with Joseph's other accounts, which do moreoverly specify that two personages the fatherless son appeared to him.

3:09:18 James Allen and John Welch provide one persuasive reading of the historical sources that finds agreement among other scholars. Quote. Because the 1832 account does not say that two beings are present in the vision, some people have wondered, did Joseph Smith see two percentages or one? Did he alter his story as time and dawn? With a little explanation, these questions can be answered. First, it is clear that the consensus of the First Division accounts is the 2 percentages appeared all of them. The 1832 account is the only one that's ambiguous. While the brief 1843 Richards report leaves out many details, including any specific mention of God's appearance, all of the other eight accounts speak clearly of two divine beings. Second, the remaining account, the 1832 narrative, actually suggests that the vision progressed in two stages.

3:10:06 First, that Joseph was filled with the Spirit of God, and the Lord opened the heavens upon me. And second, he saw the Lord, and he spake unto me. The second stage clearly refers to Jesus Christ, who identifies himself as the one who was crucified. So when that second stage, we know it's Jesus Christ. Though not explicitly stated, the initial mention of the Spirit of God and the Lord may have reference to the presence of God the Father and his opening of this vision. At the very least, it doesn't rule out to it doesn't say there was only one. Yeah. Right, And I may have missed that. Now that makes sense.

3:10:49 I think I missed I, I, I don't think I was picking up what you were putting down there. So basically, you know, while it doesn't come out and say to the fact that it's in two stages and where he says that the Lord parted the heavens for him, that would be an illusion to where God the Father introduces Jesus Christ. Unlike he says here clearly, let's say first here's the first stage, Joseph was filled with the Spirit of God manifestation of the Holy Ghost and the Father and the Lord opened the heavens upon me that God the Father did, and then he saw the Lord and he spake unto me Jesus.

3:11:32 The second stage clearly refers to Jesus Christ, who does identify himself as the one who's crucified. Though not explicitly stated, the initial mention of the Spirit of God and the Lord may have referenced to the presence of God the Father and his opening division, since it is clear in all of the other accounts that the vision was opened by God the Father. All the other accounts say yes, God the Father appeared 1st and introduced his Son. That is consistent with the sequence of events in the 1832 account, to be sure, the main point of emphasis, especially in the official 1838 account, as I had actually seen a light. In the midst of that light, I saw two personages.

3:12:13 They did in reality speaking to me. Finally, remembering that the 1832 manuscript was an unpolished effort to record the spiritual impact of the vision on him. He was by himself. He was away from home. Well, we don't know that he was doing in Indiana, but it was around that time and that the main content of the heavenly message was delivered by the sun. It is understandable that the prophet simply emphasized the Lord in the 1832 account. Thus nothing precludes the possibility that two beings are present. Let's see what else I have to say about it. This two stage reading is strengthened by the fact that in his 1835 account of the First Vision, but also in two contemporary second hand accounts, David White, Alexander Niebauer, Joseph described 1 personage appearing to him in the midst of the brilliant pillar of light or flame, and then the second one appearing immediately after. So the sequence is the same if he'd left out the transition detail.

3:13:20 Indeed, it would make functional sense that one being the Father was the first was was first to the focus of Joseph's attention as the Father opened the heavens upon him, at which point Joseph then saw the Lord the Son. Keeping in mind that the various divine titles for the members of the God did were not necessarily uniform or standardized among the Latter Day Saints in the Prophet's lifetime, nothing precludes the possibility that the 1832 account refers to both God the Father and Jesus Christ as the Lord. You know, that's interesting. Because as as I was reading that the the paragraph above there where it talks about being, you know, the spirit overcoming, I'm wondering if that's not a function of that pillar of light that he sees. Then the Father comes and introduces the Son. Dear brother, that is exactly right. Does those other extra canonical texts are reading? Equate the Shakina of the glory of God, the pillar of light, with the Spirit of God, which always appears first to prepare those to see the vision, to be able to see the vision. So the Spirit of God does.

3:14:33 That's exactly right, and I love that. And see here, here's the other thing that is so sneaky by those who who have an axe to grind with the restoration. They will glom on to one point and they will ignore the entire context of the rest of the account to make it fit. And it's that kind of intellectual dishonesty that I quite frankly detest, right? I, I want people to ask questions. We need people to ask the questions, even the tough questions. But if if you are going to start from a place where where no amount of evidence is going to be able to sway somebody.

3:15:18 Yeah. All they do is cherry pick the necessary information to make their point. They are the worst kind of missionary because, you know, they, they harp and they complain a lot about needing informed consent, right? Gosh, someone should have told me this. Someone should have made me. You are doing, you are projecting the very thing that you claim to detest. And it, it's, it's one of those things that, gosh, if you're struggling right now, make sure that in your struggles you are reading primary sources and not somebody's take on the primary source.

3:16:00 Don't take my word for it. Don't take Ken's word. Well, if you're going to take someone's word for it, take Ken's. But I would advise everybody to not take anybody's word for it. Go do your own homework. Then find people you trust and say, what do you think of this? But do your own homework. Do not understand that everybody's coming at you with a little bit of an angle and it's important and incumbent upon you to get the necessary discernment that is needed to navigate those waters. So along those lines, when people talk about they have the shelf of unanswered questions and nobody has all the answers and that they have this existential crisis where there's they have so many questions, they can't take any more and the shelf breaks. What I have discovered in my experience, I have two shelves. I have another shelf of inexplicable, miraculous bull's eyes by the Restoration.

3:17:07 How can I ignore the thousands of unassailable truths that I have discovered on my own? How can I reject all of that? Because there's one seemingly a question that doesn't have an answer at present, right? And this one about the 1832 revelation is not even a real problem. He doesn't say he only, he does not say I only saw one person. He says I saw the Lord, and then I saw the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God was there. He's clearly referring to more than one member of the Godhead. To put it this way, Neil Maxwell, highly respected scholar, apostle, deceased in the Church, often taught that reasons do not take the place of faith and testimony. Faith will always be required as part of mortality, but reason does create an intellectual and spiritual environment in which faith and hope may flourish.

3:18:17 We seek to follow the example of Elder Jeffrey Holland who spoke of having quote 1000 elements of my own testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon. Having 1000 elements is not an exaggeration. He testified to that very thing again in the most recent General Conference and I that rings so true to me whenever I have an unanswered question. If I'm ever tempted to think, wow, what if it's all just a big made-up lie? How can I forget the thousands of incredible, I mean, some of those bullseyes we read tonight?

3:19:00 How in the hell, sorry, how in the heck does a 2000 year old document talk about the temple rites I perform in the Saint George Temple? Same context, same purpose. How does that happen? I'm glad you brought up the shelf analogy because they talk about the shelf breaking and often times what I've wondered is did your shelf break or did you just have too many things stacked on one side without balancing it out? Did your shelf just tip right back to your analogy of having a or not analogy, but your point of having 1000 evidences for the gospel right?

3:19:43 Are you doing a truly detailed search or, or are you just taking these problems that are fed to you and then internalizing those and not stopping for a moment and asking the question, but what about this? What about that? Right? It it seems to it seems to be out of balance more than than breaking. Well, and I have to say, if I were to put them on a scale on the right, all the inexplicable miraculous to me straight up evidences of the truthfulness of the divinity claims of Joseph Smith and the restored gospel, a balance scale and have a little question that I don't have a perfect answer for over here. They're not even close.

3:20:28 The evidence is so far outweigh that I can't even take it. I can't even lose any sleep over it. I was having this discussion with the man a long time ago who it confided in me his concerns and his doubts, and we were having this type of conversation and he said it's a Native American story, a morality tale. He says the Native Americans talk about inside every person there are two wolves, a good wolf and a bad wolf, and they are constantly at war. Which wolf wins and is the one you feed the most and what you choose to feed the most is really an expression of your will and your desire. And when I have, I mean, having been all down all these rabbit holes, everyone I can find and think of, I'm not, I'm not ignorant.

3:21:25 I don't think of anything of any claim against the Restore gospel. And I've had this discussed with a number of friends. Every time I come out the other side of one of those rabbit holes, I come out knowing with a greater surety the truthfulness of the restored gospel. And I want to ask you what I said there, there, there aren't answers to everything on the one hand. On the other hand, there's so much information out there. I think there are answers to everything. Answers in this case, it's not, it's not a dead ringer, but it is a plausible explanation there.

3:22:07 And all of these subjects, you're not the first one to ask this question. It's been asked by smarter, wiser, more stable people to me and they've answered it in a very reasonable way. And there are answers to everything in my experience. So I guess what I would just, and I've said this before on your program, it's important for people to know where what those resources are and where to find them throw a great price. central.org is 1 scripture, central.org is another evidence. central.org is another.

3:22:48 Between those three evidence oriented websites, it is not an exaggeration to say they present solid overt secular evidence for the truthfulness of the divine claims of the restored gospel. How many thousands? Not an exaggeration, thousands. And if you've been through the whole thing with me and Dave here tonight and you haven't, you haven't been surprised or amazed by so many of these discoveries we've discussed.

3:23:29 I don't know. I don't know what else to say. I other than the plan of salvation is designed to allow us to choose according to our desires who and what we follow, whether it's true or not. Assuming for the sake of argument, the restored gospel is the absolute truth. But you don't want to do it. You want to do something else. That is why this plan exists. That is why the Father has given you your agency. You can follow whatever order you choose here and in eternity, but I'm very happy to discuss the particulars of it. I think there are those who really do have a love of the holy priesthood of the order after the order of the Son of God, Kingdom of God on earth, but get deceived out of it. And it's for people like that that I am most willing to go to Bath and have whatever conversation anybody would like to have.

3:24:39 And if I could be of help, I'm happy to do that for those people who, whether it's true or not, they really don't want to do it. We don't need to talk about anything. And I'm still I'm happy to be your friend and enjoy your company. I mean, that's how eternity is going to be, isn't it? Absolutely. The three degrees of glory are not going to be at war, right? We'll be serving. We'll be serving one another and we'll be very pleased and happy with our choices, otherwise we wouldn't have chosen them. Yeah. Absolutely, Ken, as always, man, that was good stuff. Is there anything else you wanted to cover that we didn't cover? No, we covered way more than I intended to cover.

3:25:22 That's awesome. That's that's, that's what we do, bro, every time. That's that's why I love these conversations. Me too. All right, man, I'm so grateful that you asked that you gave me a chance to do this. I just I, so I, so I so look forward to this. It's my favorite thing ever. Me too me too it was so like when I first called you up. Can you believe that's pushing four years ago now I'll be like 4 years ago next summer yes was 2022 Yep dude, I have enjoyed every one of our conversations. I love you like it, brother. I'm so glad that we we, we were able to strike up this friendship and. Me too.

3:26:03 Me too, man. Just just think the world of you, but you're funny. You crack me up and you also amaze me. I I'm still flabbergasted every time I'm listening to one of your podcasts at how widely read you are, How I'm like, how does he know that? What's he doing reading all of that stuff? And then I have to remember it's because you never sleep. I don't sleep very much. No, I do not. It's it's both a blessing and a curse. I I get a lot done, but there's there's a price that's a fix. But anyway, dude, I love you. Let's do this again soon. All right, Will do. All right, hang out just 5 minutes. Bye, everybody. Bye. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.