Episode #181: Ensign To The Nations W/Kevin Kraut

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Well, Kevin, how you doing
doing?

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Good.
Good man.

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So dude, you like accomplish
something that you've been

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talking about ever since I've
known you probably, you know,

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10-15 years ago, right?
You got that big book published.

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Hold that thing up.
I think people deserve to see

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how thick that book is.
Woo, that is, might be as thick

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as the Bible, my man.
Yeah, it's 4 1/2 inches thick.

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Wow.
This huge.

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Holy cow.
OK, so why don't you tell us

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what that book is exactly?
OK, well let's start with a

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little story.
It's when my dad began this

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work.
It was in 1963.

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He laid on the couch and Dugway
Proving Grounds fell asleep and

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in the middle of the night, an
Angel came through the window,

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stood about 1 1/2 feet above the
ground.

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And he had a giant book in his
hand, big book.

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And he said it was about the
size of the history of Utah by

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Whitney.
And Whitney's book is pretty

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close to this.
When we put it together, it

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looks we're pretty, we're pretty
similar.

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And, and while he was there, the
Angel opened it up and he looked

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inside and turned the pages and
the Angel was turning the pages

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and he saw different subjects,
different gospel subjects, you

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know, United Order, the
gathering, you know, re baptism,

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just subjects that my dad kind
of had in his head from, from

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early days of the church that
we've kind of given up a lot of

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things.
And so, and so my dad was

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looking at it and he was like,
wow, this is, this is how I

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would write.
And then he got thinking, maybe

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I wrote this book.
And he looked up at the Angel

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and the Angel nodded his head.
Yep, you know, And then he shut

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the book.
And then out the window he went.

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That's how my dad said out the
window he went.

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And so, so then he, he woke up
the next morning and he thought,

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maybe I'm supposed to write this
book.

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And so he started writing down
the subjects that he saw and and

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a little, you know, it said
Ensign to the nations and it had

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a little flag on it and all this
kind of stuff.

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He wrote it down.
And so then that was where he

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began.
And then dad started writing a

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book called Jesus was Married
and Jesus was married was how

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this whole thing began.
And he started writing different

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gospel subjects, different
things that are a little bit

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maybe controversial in some
aspects, but but it was the way

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it was back in the early days of
the church.

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And so, so there's some really
beautiful doctrines and, and

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different things inside the
book.

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That's kind of how.
Interesting.

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And now so is this your dad's
like complete works in one book?

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Is this this what that is?
This is everything we could

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pretty much find.
My dad did do a book on

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astronomy that never got
published and we lost the

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manuscript.
I I don't know where it went,

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but that that was another story.
But other than that, that's

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pretty much everything he we
could find on him.

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And, and I know that this was
was something that your dad

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really was, was passionate
about.

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I remember you telling me the
stories.

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So as you kind of take over the,
the, the business, if you will,

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or, or you pick, you kind of
pick up your dad's mantle to

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keep going here.
Why?

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When did you discover, Hey, this
is something I have to do,

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right?
Because that was kind of your

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dad's vision.
When, when do you feel like it

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was impressed upon you that it
was yours to finish right?

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So my dad found out that he had
cancer and that it was an

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aggressive one.
And, you know, being at Doug

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Wade, the many years that he was
and around all the nuclear and

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all the other bad stuff and the
inks and chemicals, and, you

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know, he felt like he did pretty
good getting 75.

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You know, he wasn't sure how
long he would live.

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And he came to me and he said,
you remember Lundwall?

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And I said, yeah, I remember
Andy Lundwall.

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He came to our house a lot and
different things.

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And, and one time when I was a
kid, I walked in, you know, I,

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we stayed at Lundwall's house in
Salt Lake City and I, I was

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just, AI didn't even remember
how young I was.

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Had to been four or five or
something.

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And I had these little pajamas
on with little swishy feet, you

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know, and anyway, I, I wanted to
get something to, to drink or

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eat or something.
I went into the kitchen and as I

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walked into his kitchen, it was
in the middle of the night.

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There was this Angel standing
there and I'm just this little

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guy looking up and there's this
wipe all through the room and,

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and here's this Angelica being
there.

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He didn't really say anything to
me.

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He just kind of smiled and and
then just, you know, out he

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went, you know, just kind of
like my dad and, and I wasn't

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real scared or anything.
I, I knew what had happened, but

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the next morning I came in and I
said, I said, you know, because

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dad always talked about apostles
and seeing Jesus and all this

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and, and I says, well, you know,
it was NB Lundwall like an

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apostle.
And my dad said, well, kind of

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not, not like, you know, the
guys in the church, but I would

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probably give him that title.
You know, he, he probably got

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him to that point where he'd
seen Christ.

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I don't know.
But Envy, Envy Lundwall was very

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aggressive at finding old
stories or old records and a lot

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of things that were in the
archives of the church.

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And, and, and when Envy Lundwall
died, he was pretty close to our

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family.
He told my dad, he says, well,

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Ogden, I'm dying.
You're going to have to take

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over the baton and you're going
to have to, you know, keep these

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things alive as best as you can
and printing and whatnot.

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And Dad had already kind of had
the Commission by that time, you

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know, by this Angel.
And so.

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And so then when Dad found out
about the cancer, he turned to

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me.
And he said, do you remember

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that story I told you about the
end of the wall and how he

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handled the baton to me?
And I said, yeah.

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And he said, I'm handing it to
you and I want you to do

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everything you can to print
books and other records and keep

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these things alive.
And that's where I think I got

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the kind of Commission to do
what I was doing.

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He, of course, we got really
serious and aggressive about

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finding out about the big book
that needed to be done.

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And so my dad, he selected the
color, had different color

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plates and he did still selected
the color he designed to cover

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how it would look, his
signature, those sort of things

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kind of came up with all of
that.

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And then we talked a lot about,
you know, how the book could be

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done and if it could be done.
And that's, well, probably not

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right now.
We don't have the technologies

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to do that.
But you know, in the day it

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probably will.
And actually it was only about 3

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or 4 years ago that well, maybe
about five years ago, they had

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actually invented a machine that
has a role that is small, like

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big old, old printing presses.
You know that the newspapers

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used to have these.
They could, they could actually

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smice sew it, sew it together.
So it was really nice all in one

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thing.
You know, it would gather the

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the signatures and then cut it
and then it would send it into

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the to compile it book.
So really it just barely kind of

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happened.
We were going to have our

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Donnelly do it here in Utah, but
during COVID they went out of

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business and.
So.

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And they wanted a lot of money,
and now we've kind of got this

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done a little bit cheaper, but
that's kind of how the

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Commission came for me to do
what I'm doing.

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Got you.
And then now putting the book

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together, you talked about that
really the technology to get

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that big of a book to be able to
be mass produced really wasn't

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around affordably until about 3
or 4 years ago.

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Is that what I'm understanding?
Yeah.

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OK.
And is that kind?

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Oh, go ahead.
Now they can do it without

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plates and all the old style ink
machines and all that.

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This these type of machines,
they just run a roll and it runs

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through a high tech copy machine
and then it just does everything

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all in one, one roll.
Gotcha.

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And so as you as you got, was it
that three or four years ago

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where you were like it just like
hit you like, OK, now we're

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ready, we can do this.
Yeah, yeah, It was around that

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time we, you know, we had
compiled the, you can see the

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the green ones behind.
I've worked very hard to make

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that work so that like all the
numbers would go all the way up

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to 4700, as in, you know, it was
all sequential and all in

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alphabetical order.
Yeah.

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And so that's how we got it all
set up.

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I think the hardest part was
getting the indexing done.

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Oddly enough, there was one
point where we're trying to get

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all the indexes together, like
in in one book it would be page

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5 where a certain subject was
found.

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But then in the big book, it
might be 3499.

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And so you're like, how am I
going to tell people where that

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is?
And how do I even know where

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that is in the big book?
I was just stressed.

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I mean, my mind, I couldn't, I
couldn't get past it.

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But it did find a lady, an
indexer who would actually go in

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and index it.
And her specialty happened to be

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an encyclopedic type.
Things just like what we come

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out.
So, and, and that brings me to

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the next question I had other
than the indexing, what kind of

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what, what kind of challenges
did you face putting together a

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book that big, right?
I mean, it's hard enough to get

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a small book done and done
right.

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It's another thing to do
something that's that massive,

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right?
Yeah.

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What what other challenges did
you face through this process?

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Oh.
Boy, it just went on and on.

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I think the biggest challenges
were money, finances, trying to

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get each of these books done,
you know, compiling and putting

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together each book into its own
separate type of thing.

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I mean, these are little small
books.

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We had to put them into an 8 1/2
by 11 format.

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That was difficult.
And so, but we had, so we had to

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do all of that kind of type of
computer work to make it

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actually happen.
There was one point, you know,

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that was a discouraging part
with the indexing because

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indexing enough was hard enough,
I mean really difficult by

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subject.
And there's two index styles in

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here. 1 is a subject index and
then it's a subject and then it

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gives kind of a little subtitle
underneath it or next to it

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about that particular subject.
That's very common one.

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And then there's a word index
where the computer went through

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and found every single place
that let's say the subject like

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Brigham Young, you know, would
be every single, you know, page

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numbers on there.
And some of those go 3 or 4

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pages long.
So it's so the word word is

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very, very interesting.
Gotcha.

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Where we had a hard time.
So that was a discouraging time

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for me.
I actually was about ready to

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give up.
I mean, when we were trying to

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get this index to work and
before I found that indexer, I

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was just really discouraged.
And oddly enough, Denver Snuffer

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calls.
Me.

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Interesting.
Yeah, and I I knew Denver back

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in the day, and he bought a set
of these green ones.

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Well, he did, and a friend of
his bought it for him.

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And then he got it.
And he calls me up and he says,

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he says, you know, Kevin, we
obviously have differences of

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opinion about plural marriage
and other things.

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But but he says your dad's work
is very comprehensive.

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It is very, very good stuff.
And we we can't even find these

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files anymore.
A lot of these archives have

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been shut down a lot of places
we can't get to.

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Some of these references are
just, you know, irreplaceable.

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And so please get your father's
work done.

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Finish those books, finish this
thing.

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And then I hung up the phone and
I'm sitting there, the inverse

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snuffer just called me, told me
to get my dad's book done.

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It's like, wow, it must be some
sort of symbolic thing.

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00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,000
And so I just got to it.
And then that's when I found the

226
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,560
lady and got the whole thing
finished.

227
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,480
In the actual process of this,
you know, in the in the writing

228
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,400
of my dad.
Oh, that's another one.

229
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,960
I forgot to tell you.
So then in the preference of all

230
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,160
these, you know, green books, I
was right before it, I was

231
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,160
trying to find something that I
could write about the

232
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,360
significance of the Angel or
whatever.

233
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,680
And I just sat down.
I prayed.

234
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,200
And then I walked outside,
pulled out one of my dad's

235
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:09,000
notebooks, and out, out of the
notebook fell this paper right

236
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,480
on the ground faced.
And I'm like, wow, what's that?

237
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,280
And I looked down and picked it
up and it was the story of the

238
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,080
Angel that my dad had typed up.
Oh wow.

239
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,520
And I mean, what are the chances
of that?

240
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,000
I I took that and that's where I
put it in the frontis of the of

241
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,320
the book.
That's what that was my next

242
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:31,680
question.
You put that in the book.

243
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,920
Yeah, that's the type.
Excellent, excellent.

244
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,080
As you were like trying to put
things together.

245
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,280
Tell me about some of the the
what you would consider some of

246
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,920
the miracles that happened as
you were trying to get this book

247
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,880
put together.
Well, one of the ones that that

248
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,520
kind of stands out other than
like the piece of paper that

249
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:58,800
fell on the ground was was while
it was being printed, it got

250
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,080
printed and they were trying to
do the gold gilding.

251
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,640
Now gold gilding is, it's the,
it's kind of the yellow part on

252
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:11,400
the sides.
You can see the yellow on this

253
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,200
and that's a gold gilding, they
call it.

254
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,840
And usually it's done with real
gold.

255
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,960
And then they heat it up and
they stamp it on there and it's,

256
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,560
it kind of shine.
It's kind of shiny.

257
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,240
And, and that's what dad
described, that it had some sort

258
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,360
of gold gilding.
And we tried, they tried to get

259
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,280
it to work.
They, they actually destroyed

260
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,160
about 30 books just trying to
figure out how to make it run.

261
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,520
You know, the guy was pretty
determined.

262
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,160
He's like, Nah, I'm going to
make it work.

263
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,720
And so anyway, but he got it
going and got them all printed

264
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,520
and they were getting ready to
get them bound.

265
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,000
And then they started trying to
Guild him and it just did not

266
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,400
work.
They were having a real hard

267
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:57,880
time.
And it was the, the, the

268
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,560
building was coming off, which
meant that it didn't stamp

269
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,440
right.
And, and it was two months

270
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,599
trying to delay on that, trying
to get that figured out.

271
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:11,240
We just couldn't get anything to
work on it.

272
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,880
And so I was getting pretty
impatient and I didn't know what

273
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,000
to do.
And so I knelt down and prayed

274
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,319
and I said, all right, Lord, you
need to send that Angel that

275
00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:23,720
brought the book, you know, to
my dad.

276
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,280
We need to have him go over
there overseas and get this

277
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,560
thing figured out.
And the next day I picked up the

278
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,200
phone and I called the company
and I was about 10 minutes after

279
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,160
they close and the phone
forwarded or went to another

280
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,360
phone and, and a man answered it
and he said hello and we started

281
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:50,240
talking and he goes, you're,
you're who?

282
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,560
And I said, I'm, I'm Kevin with
old Pioneer Press over in Utah.

283
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,400
And he goes, Oh yes, yes, yes,
we're trying.

284
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,880
We're we've been working on your
book and etcetera.

285
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,040
And I said, he goes, how did you
get my number?

286
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,960
They don't forward this to my
number.

287
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,520
And it was he was really
shocked.

288
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,400
He goes, that's just really
strange that it just went right

289
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,080
to me.
So here he is the owner and he

290
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,640
goes, he goes, let's try
something else.

291
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,080
Let's spray the gold on.
I have a certain type that will

292
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,200
it's kind of more of a paint
than a than than the gold.

293
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,640
And let's try that and see what
happens.

294
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,960
And so he tried it the next day.
Send me a picture of it.

295
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,200
I says, hey, it looks great,
we'll go with it, you know.

296
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,080
So within a week we had it all
done.

297
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:41,040
Oh wow.
And where?

298
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:47,880
Do you ship?
Gotcha As you were compiling the

299
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,720
this book, right, it's it's all
of your father's work, all of

300
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,440
his writings.
Did you have to do any other

301
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,160
editing or was it more just
like, OK, here's Jesus is

302
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,320
married.
Here's, you know, the book on

303
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,280
seer stones, the book on
whatever, and just, was it a

304
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,480
matter of just dragging and
dropping, so to speak, and then

305
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,640
sending it to the printer or did
it take a little more work than

306
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,200
that?
A lot of work because now, I

307
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,680
mean, you can talk to the editor
girls.

308
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,480
They, they had a hard time
getting it all to fit on the

309
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,520
sheets.
Right now you're going from a

310
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:28,560
small 585 by 8 book to now at 8
1/2 by 11 book.

311
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,640
There was a lot of layout
problems.

312
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,200
You know, they they'd bring it
in and then it would all be

313
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,160
garbledy, you know, it wouldn't
work and they had to find the

314
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,960
right way to to bring it in.
It was, it was hours figuring it

315
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,320
out.
But once we had it figured out,

316
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,720
then then it would it would come
in fairly quickly and then we

317
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,120
could we could make it good
though.

318
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:53,160
Gotcha.
OK.

319
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,440
So what?
Let's go here.

320
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,640
There was a couple of things
that you mentioned you really

321
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,440
wanted to go over as we talked
about this.

322
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:00,920
And I'm going to let you start
it off.

323
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,880
And if as I have questions, I'll
let you know.

324
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:09,840
OK, Just just kind of briefly
some of the main things that I

325
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,960
wanted to bring out as some of
the some of the beautiful things

326
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,320
and some of the fantastic
stories that that my family

327
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,480
encountered while working on
books.

328
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:26,000
I remember my dad printing
certain books like the Sears and

329
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,640
Sear stones book.
And I've mentioned this before

330
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,720
about sear stones.
And my dad was printing that

331
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:41,960
book because he there was the
anti Mormon guy, Gerald Tanner

332
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,040
written some pretty nasty stuff
about anybody in any any sear

333
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,200
stone at all.
And dad's like, well, there were

334
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,680
sear stones used, you know, in
the temple itself that he

335
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,440
thought had, well, sear stones.
You know, I mean, there was,

336
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,120
there was other Sears ship type
stones too.

337
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:08,560
And, and there was a, a
gentleman in the Dreamline that

338
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,640
was listening to dad talk about
this new book Sears and sear

339
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,920
stones.
And he said, well, I have a sear

340
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,240
stone.
I have Joseph Smith sear stone

341
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,520
and he dad said, really?
And he says, yeah, I'll bring

342
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:24,920
it.
And he brought it and showed it

343
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,000
to dad.
And he said, you know, dad was

344
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,000
giving lectures at BYU and
steaks and wards and different

345
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,720
things.
My dad sold most of these books.

346
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,920
He was selling them a Deseret
book and he was kind of out

347
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,160
producing and outselling Bruce R
Mcconkey at that time.

348
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,440
So he was he was a well known
author.

349
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,840
Jesus Married was a large, huge
hit.

350
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,280
I mean, people were really
interested in it in that day and

351
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,520
and so all the books kind of
came out and made a made a

352
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,720
pretty big impression.
But, but anyway, about the seer

353
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,720
stone.
So he brought the seer stone and

354
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,720
let dad take it around to the
lectures and tell the different

355
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,280
things in the lectures.
And then Dad brought it to me,

356
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,360
and, you know, he'd handed it
all over and nobody really

357
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:17,960
seemed to understand it or how,
you know, that kind of thing

358
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,040
works.
But he handed it to me.

359
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,840
And with my childlike,
simplistic faith, I just kind of

360
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,560
looked at it and I could see
anything I wanted, you know, and

361
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,760
that that kind of freaked out.
He goes, really, you can see

362
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,640
stuff.
And I said, yeah, I saw this

363
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,640
thing over here.
And I found knives and old

364
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,080
things that we'd lost and, you
know, all kinds of stuff.

365
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,480
It was very interesting.
And so the Sears of Sears Stone

366
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,120
book kind of meant a lot to me,
and I wish people would read it

367
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:50,440
more.
You know, it's just very

368
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,400
valuable.
I know you and I did a podcast

369
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,880
on that one specifically 'cause
I was kind of interested in

370
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,000
that.
Yeah, so.

371
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,760
So that was a big one.
The Three Nephites was a big

372
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,920
one.
I remember when it was being

373
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,680
printed and Dad telling stories,
that the fascination of Dad was

374
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,760
his storytelling, you know,
telling stories about people who

375
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,880
had episodes with the three
Nephites and, and all the beauty

376
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,520
of of that.
It was really, really

377
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,240
interesting.
Fascinating.

378
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:29,440
OK, so as, as let's, let's talk
about that a little bit, right

379
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,760
'cause I, I think that this is
well before we go there, what

380
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,080
was the other thing you wanted
to cover?

381
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,160
Let's do that.
You know, the other thing I, I

382
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,600
did cover in another one was I
think this is important because

383
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,080
it says a lot about with my dad
and, and some of the people who

384
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:51,040
had respect for him.
You and Edley once told this

385
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,280
thing because I was asking about
dad being excommunicated and all

386
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,240
this.
And oh, your dad can be saved.

387
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,640
And he said, you know, people
would come to me asking about

388
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,760
Adam God and, and they wondered,
you know, about the church and

389
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,360
they were starting to lose their
testimony.

390
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:12,120
And, and and the problem with
the Adam God doctrine was Bruce

391
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,040
Mcconkey said, well, Joe
Brigham, nobody ever taught it

392
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,000
back then.
And then the anti Mormons came

393
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,920
and then they would show all the
hundreds of places where it was

394
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:31,240
taught and talked about.
And so dad was really upset with

395
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:36,360
that because it's OK to say in
history that, you know, we don't

396
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:39,280
believe in that doctrine or we
don't, we don't that want to

397
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,520
shoot anymore and you know, it
was an old thing or whatever or

398
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,720
we don't, we just don't believe
it's doctrinal.

399
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,960
That's different than trying to
change history and say that they

400
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,960
never, never said it, because
then it made them out to be

401
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,000
liars, you know?
Right.

402
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:59,640
But it was a really big deal and
caused a lot of confusion.

403
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,560
And so he would just say, go
down to the library, get Ogden

404
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,200
Pratt's book on Adam.
God read it and then come talk

405
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,080
to me, 'cause I can't answer
those questions in my position.

406
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,080
And so they'd go down and read,
come back and he said, ah, they

407
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,720
every single time they'd go,
well, I got it figured out, OK,

408
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,120
thank you, you.
And, and then they'd go back to

409
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:22,040
doing their church work and
whatever.

410
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,480
And he said it was just, it was
phenomenal.

411
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,080
It was just really an important
thing.

412
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,320
That's fascinating as as you've
done this now, right?

413
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,200
You've got this and, and look,
you still have work in front of

414
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,480
you.
I don't want to make it seem

415
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,080
like, OK, you're done now you
can close up shop and be done,

416
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:42,680
right?
That's not the case.

417
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,440
You still got stuff to do.
But with that said, what do you

418
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,400
hope people take away from this
book?

419
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,840
Well, my biggest thing is that
when you, when you look at all,

420
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,760
let's just say we're all going
to head to the wilderness or

421
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,040
we're going to go back to
Jackson County or, or you want

422
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,400
to have one book, you live in an
apartment and you don't want to

423
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,040
have the whole journal with
discourses.

424
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,080
You don't want to have the whole
millennial star.

425
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,480
I mean, you know, this and just
some of the journals could add

426
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,560
up forever.
You know, I mean, Wolfram

427
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,640
Woodard's journal is huge, you
know, and, and so, so, so if you

428
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,480
could take all those and then
put them in subjects, each

429
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,960
subject and then take all that,
those references and all those

430
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,120
things.
And one of the things I want to

431
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:38,560
emphasize about my dad, when he
wrote his books like

432
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,720
Reincarnation or other ones, he
would, he would give both sides

433
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,160
of the view.
He'd give.

434
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,560
This side and give this side,
and then he'd give this side and

435
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,080
let you make up your mind.
He told me a story once where he

436
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,120
didn't know what to do because
he was trying to teach the old

437
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,840
ways of how we did it in the
church so that people would

438
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,840
know.
And he was this big teacher in

439
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,200
the stake.
And so he got up and he would

440
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,240
just say, now in the old days,
this is how they did it.

441
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,840
He'd teach all the
fundamentalist ways and all the

442
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,160
old stuff.
And they'd say, now this is how

443
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,280
we teach it today and this is
what we do and This is why we do

444
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,280
it.
And you know, and this, you

445
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,880
know, blah, blah, blah.
And he'd say he'd have people

446
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,640
come up who he knew liked the
old ways and they'd say, that

447
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,360
was the best talk I've ever
heard.

448
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:30,680
Yeah, that was great.
And then there were those who,

449
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,400
you know, believed in the modern
view.

450
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,200
And then they'd walk in, they'd
say, oh, that was the best talk

451
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,720
I've ever heard, you know,
because because he got both

452
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,360
sides and they saw by kind of
only.

453
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,520
But that was that was how that
was done.

454
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,320
So.
So that's that's a big, huge

455
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,920
one.
But just for all the simplified

456
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:59,120
ways to see the old religion
that was started by Joseph

457
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:02,560
Smith, I think this is just an
invaluable work.

458
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,280
Right, right.
Absolutely.

459
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:09,760
So with it.
Oh, go ahead.

460
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,880
Just one quick thought.
In United Order, my father

461
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,800
teaches about tithing and how
tithing was not done the way it

462
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:24,200
is today and how you had to have
a United Order started before

463
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,000
you even paid Titan.
That's how it is in the Book of

464
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,120
Mormon.
This, this, this, all things in

465
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:32,960
common, things going on.
And then Titan came.

466
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,640
And so that explains all of that
in the United Order and how it

467
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,640
worked.
And it worked very well.

468
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,760
It wasn't, it wasn't like
everybody paying 10%.

469
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,840
Well, they kind of did, but they
had to do it as a United Order

470
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,400
and it was on the increase of
each year.

471
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:57,080
So if you didn't increase any in
a year, there's no tithing paid.

472
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,240
Right.
Wow, holy cow.

473
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,960
And then in this process of, of
printing this work, did you gain

474
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,160
like any new appreciation for
for what your dad had done?

475
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:18,440
Just sitting down and looking at
the complexity of how he could

476
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,640
honestly do this without a
computer, I will never

477
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,320
understand.
And he did it because he had a

478
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,440
photograph of him.
Other than that, he wouldn't.

479
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,480
I mean, you know, Anne came in
and was talking to him one day

480
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:41,200
about, about the gift of dreams
and, and dad said there was a

481
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:48,400
picture that I want to put in
here and it was in this book and

482
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,200
it was printed this and and it
has this picture.

483
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,240
And it's a story about this man
who had a dream.

484
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,600
He was working on the sewing
machine and he could never

485
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,120
figure out how to make it work,
you know, how to loop it and how

486
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,800
to have it come through.
And then he had a dream and

487
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,040
these little natives were coming
up with these Spears and they

488
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,680
were going to kill him and their
little, the little points on the

489
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:21,360
end had a hole in the tip of the
sphere.

490
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,320
And then he got up and he went,
Oh my heck, if I put the hole

491
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,160
instead of at the end at the
tip, then at the tip, it could

492
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,080
go down and capture the other
sewing.

493
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,240
And that's how he was invented.
And that was by a gift of

494
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,920
dreams.
And so that's that.

495
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,160
I, I want to have that article.
And so he told her what magazine

496
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,400
and where to go and about what
page and what the picture looked

497
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,080
like.
And she went and found this

498
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,360
thing and she came back and she
was, how many years ago did you

499
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,080
see this?
And he goes, I don't know, about

500
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,720
30 years ago.
And she's 30 years ago.

501
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,200
You you remember the page
numbers and the the the very

502
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,480
what the book looked like and
everything so.

503
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,920
Wow.
Yeah, yeah.

504
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,360
So he definitely had some gifts
to get this all done without the

505
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,200
gift of technology.
Right.

506
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,760
Who?
So if if someone wants to get a

507
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,440
hold of that book, Kevin, where?
Where can they get it from?

508
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,320
OK, so we have a website
calledaugmentcrowd.com.

509
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,800
It's just his name.
And then and then on it, when

510
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,440
you first go in, it'll have the
book itself, what it's about.

511
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,720
It'll have the list of other,
the actual number of books

512
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,960
that's in it.
The actual number of books

513
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:49,040
that's in it is about 70
different books, so there's the

514
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,640
list.
Holy Cow 72.

515
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:57,880
Books 70 or 72 anyway, and this
is what it kind of looks like on

516
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,080
the website, OK, And then
different things there.

517
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,240
And then at the bottom of the
page, there's the QR code.

518
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,320
There's also the sale price.
And then you can punch on the

519
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,320
blue and then that takes you to
buy now.

520
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,960
And so you can buy it with a
credit card and we'll shoot it

521
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,120
out.
Nice.

522
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:24,360
Now I can edit this part out if
this isn't the case, but we had

523
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,920
talked back on Monday about
maybe putting it on 1830

524
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,400
mercantile.org.
Is that something you wanted to

525
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,600
pursue?
Absolutely.

526
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:34,960
Yeah.
All right, So yeah, you can go

527
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,760
to 1830 Mercantile and and find
it there.

528
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,800
But I do.
I just feel like everybody needs

529
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,120
a copy of this, right?
Like I just, we look, we,

530
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,000
there's money we have to spend
out in Babylon right now.

531
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,040
And I get that.
But man, I think this book is

532
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,360
going to be invaluable, right?
Because if there's one thing

533
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,240
that I could always respect
about your dad's writings, and

534
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,400
you kind of alluded to this
beforehand, right?

535
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,240
It was he was just going to give
you the facts and kind of let

536
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,240
you decide for yourself.
He didn't pontificate a whole

537
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,360
lot in his works.
There were certain subjects that

538
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,880
he definitely gave his opinion
on.

539
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,080
But by and large, your dad was
was more or less just a

540
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,040
collector of documents and then
allowed those documents to be

541
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,720
seen in a in a certain format.
You know what I mean?

542
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,400
Right.
And do you?

543
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,680
Do you think your dad knew what
he was doing there, or do you

544
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,480
think that was just his default
style?

545
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,920
Some of both, you know, and,
and, and some of the, some of

546
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,640
the style of his writing.
I mean, it was so inspired.

547
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:47,480
One time I went to his print
shop and it got late and, and I

548
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,880
was truck driving at the time
and I just said, I'm tired, I'm

549
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,400
going to go sleep in my trash.
And he says, you can sleep in

550
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,880
here, you know, And so I slept
on the sofa there.

551
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,680
And, and he says, now be careful
because sometimes I get

552
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,600
inspiration to come in and I
type things on my computer in

553
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,640
the middle of the night.
And I said, that's OK.

554
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,639
So, you know, sure enough, two
or three in the morning, he

555
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:14,520
comes stumbling in, turns on the
light, starts typing a bunch of

556
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,800
stuff on the computer, and then,
you know, went back and stumbled

557
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,920
out and went to bed.
And I thought, that's

558
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,400
interesting.
And so I got up the next morning

559
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,280
and I went in and I said, so
Dad, tell me a little bit about

560
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,080
what you wrote last night.
He said, I don't write anything

561
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,280
last night.
And I said, no, you got up and

562
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,880
went in and typed up a whole
bunch of stuff.

563
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,239
I, I don't remember that.
I don't think I did that, you

564
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,600
know, and so he went in and
looked on his computer and here

565
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,840
was this whole beautiful laid
out.

566
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,560
He said, this is like the
masterpiece that I've ever done.

567
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,440
And he said and and how he said
it was well, we'll go see how

568
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,640
the what the Lord had to say
about this or, or something.

569
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,840
And and so it was so inspired.
You don't even remember.

570
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,560
It was just, you know, working
right off the spirit.

571
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:09,200
Wow, wow.
I I have another question for

572
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,360
you and, and it's a little off
topic for the book, but it's

573
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,160
something I've wondered from
time to time.

574
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:16,200
What year did your dad pass
away?

575
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,840
2002. 2002, so that's 23 years
ago.

576
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,520
Yeah.
If you think back to what

577
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:32,720
fundamentalism was like 23 years
ago and compare it to today,

578
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:36,360
what do you think your dad would
think of the state of the

579
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,600
religion now?
Well, he always said that it

580
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,760
would be scattered and
shattered, that there's vomit on

581
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,600
all the tables, you know, that
there's problems.

582
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,120
But, you know, he used to always
say, I just don't know how it

583
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,800
can get any worse.
It's just the words got to come.

584
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,120
I just don't see it.
And then, you know, the next

585
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,840
year would be even worse.
And, you know, and so I, I think

586
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,400
he kind of expected things to be
out of order and the mess.

587
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,960
And, you know, that's about how
our world is right now, you

588
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:13,160
know, and the, the sad part to
me, or the hard part, hard part

589
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:18,160
for me to see is that our
children are not coming up in

590
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,760
the ways of Lord.
They're not understanding these

591
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:26,360
big book details and we're
losing it very quickly.

592
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,080
Why do you think that is, Kevin?
Satan.

593
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,160
Well, right, But I mean, what's
he doing specifically to you?

594
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,760
Know from that there was a, you
know, just kind of going off

595
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,280
subject here.
There's all these different

596
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,400
fundamentalist groups.
The church is kind of going more

597
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,880
Babylon.
There were all these things

598
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,760
going on.
And I have kind of an autistic

599
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,600
kid, and I asked him when he was
younger.

600
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,320
I said, you know, it's kind of
explaining to him all the

601
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,840
problems that's happening in
some of the groups and some of

602
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,000
the things that's going on and
how people are kind of, you

603
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,520
know, moving into more different
groups and smaller groups and,

604
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:08,280
you know, just all over the
place.

605
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,520
And my son looked kind of up in
the air and he said, oh, Dad, I

606
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,120
see Satan.
And I said, do you see Satan,

607
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,640
like right now?
And he goes, yeah, I see Satan.

608
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,520
And I said, wow, what's going
on?

609
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:28,680
And he says, well, Dad, Satan
scattered the flock.

610
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:39,600
And so this is what's happened
is divide and conquer, which is

611
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,520
what he's doing.
And I see that a lot.

612
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,920
And so instead of finding
similarities and working with

613
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,120
each other, we're all by our
native instincts are dividing.

614
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,160
And that's, that's the scattered
and shattered that was

615
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,200
prophesied.
He would have had to have been

616
00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:02,120
been somewhat pleased with the
way things are going a little

617
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,280
bit though, right?
I mean, there's never been a

618
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,880
time where we could be more open
as a people, right?

619
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,680
Right, that's true.
And and so I think that's that's

620
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:18,000
might be, I guess I look at it
and I guess maybe I'm maybe a

621
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,840
little too optimistic and that
that might be my issue.

622
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,080
But I guess I look at it now and
look, there's one fundamentalist

623
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,560
temple that has been built.
There's another one that's about

624
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:35,000
to start getting built.
There are, you know,

625
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:39,080
fundamentalists are becoming
kind of more mainstream, for

626
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,200
lack of a better word, right?
We're out there a little bit

627
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,600
more.
We're more in your in, in, in

628
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,200
public discourse.
So I think those are good

629
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,400
things, right?
Is, is everything perfect?

630
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,920
But no.
But I do think we're on to some

631
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,160
good things, right?
I don't know if your dad would

632
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,800
have saw it that way, but that's
not my general sense.

633
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,200
You always thought the good and
bad in things, you know, and,

634
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,320
and one of the things that he
felt very strongly of is that a

635
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,840
lot of people would start
leaving the church, he says.

636
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,000
They're just going to leave in
droves, Kevin.

637
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,520
They're going to leave in
droves.

638
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,480
And it's our job to fill in the
blanks and teach them these old

639
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,120
principles.
Amen.

640
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:28,240
And, and they're hungry, they're
starving for information

641
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:33,720
because, you know, after so many
years of gospel fluff, you know,

642
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,360
we want, we want some meat here.
You know, we're tired of

643
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,680
drinking the milk.
And, and, and this is where I

644
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:44,120
think my dad shined.
This is what this was all about

645
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,800
is to teach them those basic
principles and what they are.

646
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,920
There's a lot deeper
fundamentalists to offer.

647
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,040
There's a lot more things that
are that I've got books here

648
00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,360
that that go into real depth and
they're not for the mild

649
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,360
hearted, you know, and, and so,
but that's what God did with

650
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,880
this book.
He made it easy to understand.

651
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,160
He, he wasn't like James
Tambridge where, you know, he

652
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,120
used big words.
He worked very hard to make

653
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,640
things in a layman's term where
people could understand it.

654
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,840
It wasn't complex.
It wasn't, you know, overly

655
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:22,720
complex.
He had.

656
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,960
He had volumes, I can't remember
which book it was, but he had,

657
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,560
he had probably 20 or 30
notebooks.

658
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,160
And I looked at them all and I
said, Dad, there's, there's got

659
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,440
to be, you know, 2000 pages
here, you know, and he goes,

660
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:41,040
yeah, and I've got to simplify
that all down to about 300

661
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:47,000
pages.
And so he, he would go off to to

662
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,400
Wendover or Vegas or whatever
and he'd get a room and they'd

663
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,360
just sit down and go through all
that stuff for hours and hours

664
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,760
and hours where there wasn't
phone calls, there wasn't

665
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,440
interruptions and just, you
know, get it simplified down

666
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,640
easily.
You know, we, I look at guys

667
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:13,360
like your dad who sometimes I
look back at those times as, you

668
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:18,160
know, especially, you know, the,
the 40s through the, through

669
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:23,040
really the, the early 2000s is
kind of the dark times, right,

670
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,440
Where you have to be a little,
you have to be quiet, you have

671
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,000
to keep your head down because
you do not want to raise those

672
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,920
animosities.
And I think one of the genius

673
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,360
things that your father did, and
I think it's reflected in that

674
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:41,120
book you just showed, was as
time goes along, it gets really

675
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,480
easy to lose things, right?
Really easy to lose things.

676
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,320
And so as, as you try to put the
picture back together, right,

677
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,920
you have to be able to find the
documentation to do it.

678
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,680
And I think that's, that was the
mission that I think your dad

679
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,320
fulfilled so well was being able
to give people the resources to

680
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,520
put the puzzle pieces back in
place, right?

681
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:08,040
To be able to say, look, this
goes here, this goes here, you

682
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,520
know, this, this fits with that
and and kind of put it all back

683
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:12,880
together again, you know what I
mean?

684
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:19,880
Yeah.
So with, with that said, I feel

685
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,760
like now is, is the time that we
need to kind of reap the rewards

686
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,120
of his hard work, right.
I look at that book and I'm

687
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,360
like, I think that needs to be
in every Mormon's home.

688
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,760
I really do 'cause I think, I
think, I think because that that

689
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,960
allows us to see the fuller
picture.

690
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,360
And again, it's a, it's largely
an unbiased picture.

691
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,480
He's just going to say, here's
what I found.

692
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,840
Now it's up to you for you to
decide where you think it fits

693
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,440
or not fits right.
And I, I think that's hugely,

694
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,880
hugely important in this, in
this work here.

695
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,520
So, but dude, I, I can't wait
for, for this book.

696
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,120
Have you sold many yet?
Yeah, so quite a few, it's,

697
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,880
we've only had it for, you know,
3 or 4 weeks.

698
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,840
So it's not good and people are
grasping it.

699
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,640
They're starting to see it.
A lot of people said the very

700
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,880
same thing as you said,
everybody should have this just

701
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,920
like the family Bible should be
sitting in their house.

702
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,640
And and because then they can
get references, they can just

703
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,240
look it up in the index.
They can find whatever they're

704
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:28,040
looking for.
Look, we're not going to have

705
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,080
computers in the future.
I mean, the first thing that,

706
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:39,240
you know, during a certain time,
can't remember his name now, he

707
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:44,160
was on Fox, Tucker Carlson,
Tucker, first thing Tucker

708
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,440
Carlson said after he got kind
of canned, he came on and he

709
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,920
goes, everybody needs to get the
hard copies of everything.

710
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:52,960
You.
Know if you have something

711
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,800
important, Print it out, put it
aside, get it off the computers.

712
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,680
You can't rely on the computers.
Right.

713
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,280
Yeah, No, that's that's true.
You know, it's interesting as,

714
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,320
as the temple here in Missouri
was, was being close to being

715
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:14,240
finished, there's one gentleman
out here who said something very

716
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:17,640
profound.
And he said we this had to get

717
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,760
done right now or else we as
fundamentalists would lose the

718
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:26,520
importance of temples.
And I, he said, I think we were

719
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:32,840
just one generation away, right?
And I look at some of these

720
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,360
teachings your dad preserved and
I think it's right there, right?

721
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,680
We're, we're one generation away
from losing some of this.

722
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,440
And you alluded to this, that
we're having a hard time getting

723
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,680
our kids to pick up, pick up
the, the, the, the torch and,

724
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:54,160
and keep running with it.
And I just see this as one more

725
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,560
tool to put in our arsenal as
parents to just be able to do

726
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:02,520
that.
So, but well, Kevin, what

727
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,320
anything else you want to go
over before we wrap this up?

728
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:12,720
Well, yeah, I would urge every
family in the church out of the

729
00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:14,520
church.
A lot of people are leaving the

730
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,800
church.
You know, a lot of devastation

731
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:22,360
kind of happened when Nelson
told people to kind of get the

732
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:23,960
shot.
A lot of people.

733
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,320
That in a negative way, it was
not a thus saith the Lord.

734
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,400
And he certainly didn't do it
over the pulpit.

735
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,280
So there's a lot of a lot of
controversy there.

736
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:41,120
The big thing people need to
understand that is in 1890 there

737
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:45,680
was a covenant made with Wolfel
Woodruff and the conspirators.

738
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:53,240
And during that time we gave up
a lot of these principles.

739
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,480
And that's why Denver Snuffer
and other people and Nibbly and

740
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,640
others said this is so valuable
is because these cover the

741
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:08,320
principles before 1890, After
1890, everything started going

742
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,520
down in the church.
And then the problem with people

743
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,880
today is they start saying,
well, you know, my Bishop's

744
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,120
corrupt, my Stig president's
corrupt, BYU is corrupt.

745
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,200
The president of the church told
us to do terrible things, so the

746
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,920
whole gospel is bad and let's
just throw the whole thing out.

747
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,800
And this is where we've got to
pick up the reins and say, no,

748
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,200
this was told, it was foretold
that the the drunkards of

749
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,360
Ephraim and Isaiah would make a
covenant with death and hell.

750
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,000
And so the church did make that
covenant.

751
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,720
And the Lord's still with the
church, He's still trying to get

752
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:48,960
things to go.
The missionary programs, it was

753
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,760
all foretold by a lot of the
people in the old days.

754
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,880
Even in the Desiah Hancock
Journal, there's a whole

755
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,160
recording about what Joseph
Smith said.

756
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:04,040
He said in the last days that,
you know, that there'd be

757
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,120
doctors and lawyers and
businessmen that would run the

758
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:11,320
church, that that was a horrible
thing to be one of those back in

759
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,760
the day.
And, and so, you know, they and

760
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,920
they, they wouldn't know what's
happening.

761
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,680
They, they would do things that
are, you know, kind of messed

762
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,400
up.
Brigham Young even made a quote

763
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:28,120
and it was even said, I fear
lest in the last days that this

764
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:33,160
people, you know, the people
that run the church will lead

765
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,520
our people even unto the brink
of hell.

766
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,600
And so here we are.
We're, we're in Babylon.

767
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,480
It was a terrible thing to be
part of Babylon in those days.

768
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,000
the United order and being
together and working in unison.

769
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,840
Those were really high
priorities of the people.

770
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,080
Our ancestors, my my ancestors
walked the planes.

771
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:01,920
And my great, great grandfather,
you know, Robert McBride, he

772
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,000
actually died.
He was one that carried the

773
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,640
women and children across the
plane, you know, across the

774
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,000
river and, and they froze to
death.

775
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:16,280
And, and so, you know, we made a
lot of sacrifice to, for this

776
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,080
religion.
And, and, and so I urge people

777
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,880
to get the books.
I urge them to read them.

778
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,440
There are some online that
people can read.

779
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,760
There's some Youtubes out there.
I'm on a YouTube.

780
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,960
You're, you have some other
Youtubes that talk about this,

781
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,560
you know, let's get educated,
understand why they live what

782
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,480
they did.
And then one more thing.

783
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,720
There is a, a website out there
that I, I'm very fond of and

784
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:48,480
it's called early mormonism.com.
And I want people to reference

785
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:53,320
to that because there's all the
different journals of the, of

786
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,960
The Pioneers on there.
There's just hundreds of them.

787
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:01,880
And my dad used to say that
these journals, Joseph Smith

788
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,280
said, you people write down
these experiences because these

789
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,280
will be almost quoted as
scripture.

790
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,520
Your journals will almost be
quoted as scriptures by your

791
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,160
posterity.
And so now we're seeing a lot of

792
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,600
that fulfilled.
One of the reasons why my father

793
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,080
not only did this type of work,
but he preserved a lot of

794
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:31,320
journals, 50 to 100 journals.
And what I heard him say was

795
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,080
that there was a man in the
archives of the of this church

796
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,440
who if they had anything
spiritual or a little

797
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,000
controversial or he didn't like
or whatever reason, he'd take

798
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,960
the journal, take it out and
back, throw it in the dumpster.

799
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,640
Or we also heard it may have
been a 55 gallon barrel, you

800
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,200
know, and throw it in the barrel
and light it on fire and burn.

801
00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:59,040
It up.
And the dad would get the

802
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,040
journal and he would copy the
journal or take photos of it,

803
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:04,840
you know, because he had his
little spy cameras.

804
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:10,080
He worked for the and then he
would reprint the journals and

805
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,040
then bring them into that guy
and hand them to him and say,

806
00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:16,200
OK, I've got 500 copies out
there.

807
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,840
So even if you burn it up, it's
not going to do any good.

808
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:27,520
And I was working for a Tyler
and he was doing tile work.

809
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,360
And I told him that story and he
knew my dad and we knew, we knew

810
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,600
him.
And he, his name was Mike.

811
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,960
I won't tell his last name, but
Mike told me.

812
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,040
He says, I know the very person
that that that did that.

813
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:45,200
And so I just want you to know
that that was one of the major

814
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,400
things that was happening.
Amy.

815
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:54,560
Yeah.
So so he he verified that story

816
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:59,480
that that actually happened.
So we want people to understand

817
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,160
the journals and the histories
of those people.

818
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,080
I just heard one the other night
and it was my dad had it

819
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,880
recorded.
It was a journal about Lorenzo

820
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,520
Snow coming and giving this girl
a blessing.

821
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:20,120
And this girl she she actually
went to bed and she said in the

822
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,520
morning at 10:00, they're coming
to get me.

823
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:23,920
They're going to I'm going to
die.

824
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:33,360
So sure enough, at 10:00 sharp,
poof, she dead and Lorenzo Snow

825
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,320
comes in and inviting man do
this and he goes, I don't she's

826
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,920
not supposed to go.
I think she's supposed to be

827
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:40,880
here.
She has a mission.

828
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:46,440
She needs to come back.
And so he he went in and it's

829
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,080
been about an hour that she was
dead or something, an hour or

830
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,360
two or something anyway.
And he lays his hands on her

831
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,680
heads and she says, he says,
come back, come back, come back.

832
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,680
And then he gives her this
blessing and then he leaves.

833
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,000
He's out of there because he
knows she doesn't want to come

834
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,640
back.
And and then it was a little

835
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,440
while after that.
Then she comes back to life and

836
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,720
she's looking around the room.
She says, where's where's

837
00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:17,120
brother Snow?
And she was pretty upset that

838
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,840
she wanted to chew him out and
he wasn't there.

839
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,640
He's gone.
And and so it was a pretty

840
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,800
fantastic story.
And you think about, you know,

841
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,280
there's so much controversy.
There's so many things that

842
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,640
people say bad about Brigham
Young and and John Taylor and

843
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,120
Lorenzo Snow.
All those people say are bad.

844
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,520
Everything after Joseph was evil
and terrible and all these

845
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,680
horrible things.
And, and I've got stories about

846
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,040
Brigham Young.
Yeah, he made a lot of mistakes.

847
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,600
John Taylor and him didn't get
along, and there were some real

848
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,720
issues with Brigham, but Brigham
had some inspiration.

849
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,680
Absolutely he did.
You know, tons of things that he

850
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,880
prophesied that have come true,
tons of things that he did.

851
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,400
One story was really
fascinating.

852
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,920
I'll close this up, but I'm just
trying to emphasize.

853
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:04,880
Yeah.
No, you're good.

854
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:09,120
And how important it was, you
know, there was up, up one of

855
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,400
the canyons here, I think was
Little Cottonwood Canyon.

856
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,160
And they built a mill.
Now in the old days in the mill,

857
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,160
they had this, this water.
And then it ran everything, you

858
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,760
know, it run power tools, it ran
things.

859
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,920
And they had this big sawmill
and they'd cut the logs and cut

860
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,360
them into pieces.
And, you know, it was quite a

861
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,680
thing.
And they're all run by water and

862
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:34,720
these guys are out there and
every time they turn around,

863
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:38,360
their tools were missing and
they got kind of mad at each

864
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,360
other and they blame, you stole
my tool.

865
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,680
No, I didn't steal it.
You stole mine, you know, And

866
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,440
they going back and forth and
having this problem and, and

867
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,120
we'll, we'll, you know, we just
have to find out what's going

868
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:50,880
on.
And Brigham came up up there and

869
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,560
see how things were going.
And they told him about this

870
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,400
story.
And Brigham walks around and he

871
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,800
looks up in the sky and kind of
prays a little bit about it and

872
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,480
walks around a little bit more.
And then he comes back and he

873
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:09,080
says, brethren, he said this
very spot is now being commanded

874
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,400
by the Gadians from the other
side.

875
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,560
And as it said in the Book of
Mormon, that your treasures will

876
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,160
become slippery, they're
stealing your tools.

877
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,400
And so these so these beings
from the other side are taking

878
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,000
this.
And he said, so the only way

879
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:32,280
we're going to get away from
this is to tear down the whole

880
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:37,360
mill, take it upstream and on
the other side of the the river.

881
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,480
And then we'll place it there
and we'll never have a problem

882
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,960
again.
And I'll send, I'll send the

883
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,280
crew up to help.
So they came up and tore this

884
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,400
whole thing down, moved it
across the river, set it on the

885
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,400
other side and never had a
problem after that.

886
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,880
Wow.
You know people are hard on

887
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:01,600
those early brethren, right?
And I want to say this, if

888
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,520
you're looking for a perfect man
to be a prophet, you're going to

889
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:07,680
look for a long, long time and
never find it, right?

890
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:12,640
And I look in the Scriptures and
I don't see anywhere that tells

891
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,080
me that prophets are infallible,
right?

892
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,760
Moses kills a man.
Isaiah has unclean lips.

893
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,920
Jonah runs from God.
Peter denies the Christ, right?

894
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,880
Go on and on and on.
And we have a lot of grace and a

895
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:30,600
lot of forgiveness for those
guys.

896
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,400
But for some reason, those early
restoration leaders, we don't,

897
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:37,440
right?
People tend to really want to

898
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,000
just come down hard on them.
I, I, I imagine it's probably

899
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:45,240
because they're closer to us in
the proximity of time than

900
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:48,840
those, than those Old Testament
and New Testament prophets,

901
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,240
right?
But nonetheless, despite their

902
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:58,000
flaws, in my opinion, up in
this, just my opinion, up to

903
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:03,520
Joseph F Smith, all those guys
were still prophets doing the

904
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:08,080
best they could in some really
horrific circumstances, right?

905
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,000
And you know, I, I've done
plenty of podcasts that

906
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,120
illustrate that even Wilford
Woodruff, he signed the

907
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:20,840
manifesto, but he also kept the
principal alive, right?

908
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:28,720
He made sure that that guys like
Howie, John W Taylor kept going.

909
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:33,600
And I think that's something
hugely important to remember,

910
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:38,880
especially I'm, I'm not a fan
of, of trashing the ancestors,

911
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:43,400
so to speak, right?
I'm sure it's someday, you know,

912
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:47,040
if it goes that long, our great,
great grandkids will look back

913
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,040
on us and go, those people were
savage, right?

914
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,360
And and, and I think we need to
keep that in mind, right?

915
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,880
Is that be gentle with them.
They did the best they could and

916
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,720
quite frankly, they left us a
heck of a legacy to stand on.

917
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,720
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, Jon Taylor, I don't.

918
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:11,880
I can't even account how many
times he had claim of, of seeing

919
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,240
the savior and having these
experiences.

920
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:16,720
And it just breaks my heart.
You know, I had a guy come in

921
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,000
here the other day and he's
talking about this Joseph Smith

922
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:25,640
movie who killed Joseph and, and
them shooting at the, the actual

923
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,640
watch, you know, and how that
was all a lie 'cause they shot

924
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:32,360
it at this angle and all that.
And I, I, so I just typed in the

925
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,840
Internet, you know, being saved
by objects and there's hundreds

926
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,520
of people in World War 2 that
had.

927
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:40,920
Those little bubbles.
And the little Bible had a

928
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,360
bullet stuck in it and and
stopwatches there was a German

929
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,920
soldier that you know, he was up
there.

930
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,760
It was an officer and he got
shot and it got hit and hit the

931
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,360
hit this pocket watch just same
as John Taylor saved his life.

932
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:56,400
Who's to say that doesn't
happen?

933
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:00,760
But we don't see it the way
because we want to see something

934
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,080
fault wise with the church.
We want to see something fault

935
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:08,440
wise with these men and and when
you get in that fault finding

936
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:12,680
mode, instead of looking at the
good or the beauty of what they

937
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,800
had done and what I mean,
Lorenzo Snow saw the Savior

938
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,080
walking down the steps of the
temple.

939
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:24,280
I mean, you know, this is, this
is how close these men were to

940
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:31,240
God and to this beautiful
concept and for us to trash that

941
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:35,680
or trash our ancestors or talk
bad about what they went

942
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,000
through.
I mean, they went through

943
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:42,200
tremendous things that we could
never go through.

944
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,520
Absolutely.
Really, really tough.

945
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,640
Absolutely.
I couldn't agree with you more,

946
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,800
you know, and, and I think
that's part of your father's

947
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,640
legacy too, right?
It's it's just preserving this

948
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,960
for us, right.
And, and I look at those early

949
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:01,160
brethren in church leadership
and, and I see something similar

950
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,600
there.
So, well, ma'am, that's good

951
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:04,400
stuff.
Kevin.

952
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,960
I'm, I'm, I'm super excited to,
to get this up.

953
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:13,600
So, yeah, go check out
augenkraut.com to get the book.

954
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,200
Or you can go to 1830
mercantile.org.

955
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,320
It's all right there.
We're going to put all of

956
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:22,040
Kevin's books up there for him.
So just one place you can go

957
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:23,920
where you can find them all at
the same time.

958
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,200
Kevin, I'm excited to see what,
what, what you're going to work

959
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:28,560
on next.
Any ideas?

960
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,600
Well, we're going into Mormon
history with these journals,

961
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:39,560
awesome complete compilations of
journals, and finishing up all

962
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,480
of my dad's smaller work to make
sure all those books are

963
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,880
available.
I don't know, everybody's really

964
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,840
searching right now and it's a
beautiful time to get into this

965
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,120
type of subject and study it
out.

966
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,680
Absolutely.
Furthermore, you give your local

967
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,840
fundamentalist podcaster more
fuel to talk about, so that's

968
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,480
always good too.
So.

969
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,160
But anyway, Kevin, dude, it's
always a pleasure to talk to

970
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:07,400
you, man.
Thank you.

971
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:09,200
All right, we'll do it again
soon.

972
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,840
All right.
OK, hang out for just 5 minutes.

973
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:44,560
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

974
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,000
Renegade podcast.