Episode #150: Cherish Families: Helping Those Caught In Abuse W/Shirlee Draper From Cherish Families

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So I've had the opportunity to
meet many families in Mormon

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fundamentalism, and the vast,
vast majority of those families

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are beautiful, well adjusted,
loving families.

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But I won't deny that just like
in monogamous marriages, abuse

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does happen, and when it does,
women and children need help.

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However, not all organizations
that offer that help are created

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equal.
This was never more on display

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than during the days of the
wicked priest tyrant Warren

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Jeffs as folks reached out for
help to get away from him.

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There were organizations all too
eager to help but would do so

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with strings attached.
Like putting a camera in the

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survivors faces and profiting
off their pain for reality TV

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ratings and then berating the
some of the survivors religious

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beliefs.
However, there is one

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organization that I feel is
doing it right and that's

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Cherish Families.
Cherished Families was founded

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and is largely staffed by people
from polygamous backgrounds,

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both practicing and non
practicing.

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With their deep understanding of
the fears and barriers that

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people from our faith community
can experience.

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They are compassionate,
empathetic, and uniquely

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qualified to serve the Mormon
fundamentalist community.

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All without profiting off of the
survivors pain or forcing them

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to denounce their religious
beliefs.

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Today I have on Shirley Draper
from Cherish Families and we

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have a discussion about how the
organization was founded, how

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they seek to fulfill their
mission, and what you can do to

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help if you feel so inclined.
That and more on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Shirley, thanks for coming on.
Thank you for having me.

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I got to tell you, I I was told
about cherished families, your

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organization from a good friend,
Joshua Erickson.

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So shout out to him.
But he was like you, you've got

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to get them on.
I'm like, OK, all right.

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And so reached out and you guys
were super accommodating.

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So I'm just, I'm happy that
you're here and talking to me.

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I'm glad that our schedules
finally aligned.

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Oh, it's, it's OK.
You know what?

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That stuff happens quite a bit.
It's it's all good.

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So, Shirley, real quick, what is
cherished families?

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What, what is it?
What's What's this organization

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about?
We are a social service

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nonprofit and we provide really
any kind of social service that

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people from fundamentalist
backgrounds might need.

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And that's a lot.
I mean, I'll talk about all the

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different programs, but
basically for people who like

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me, you know, came out of a
community that was really close

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to society and didn't have
access to, to various services,

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we, we try to provide those in a
really culturally sensitive way.

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Most of us who are with the
organization actually came from

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fundamentalist backgrounds.
So we are culturally sensitive

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by default.
You know, we understand what

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somebody's fears and barriers
might be to, to access these

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services.
So our biggest grant is a crime

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victims, a federal department,
It's a Department of Justice

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crime victims grant.
So the bulk of your funding

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comes from the the that grant
for survivors of crime?

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Is that what I'm understanding?
So it's, it's not the bulk of

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our funding, but it is our
largest grant.

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And so, so if it forms amount
maybe about, oh, a third of our,

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of our funding.
And it is a crime victim

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funding.
So we are able to provide crime

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victim services to anyone from a
fundamentalist background that

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safety plans is helping them
report crimes if they want,

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helping them have get access to
justice, like going to court or

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even, you know, moving away if
they need a protective order,

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anything like that.
So and so, and it also provides

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a really unique, you know, thing
for most of us from

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fundamentalists.
Of course, we grew up knowing

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that we should be afraid of
government and law enforcement.

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And so when I was growing up, we
never would have reported a

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crime, but we're trying to
create a place of safety where

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people can report crimes and
know that they will be respected

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and, and won't be blamed for the
crimes that were committed on

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them.
So that's, that's a big part of

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our funding.
Another, another service we

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provide is family peer support.
So anybody who needs to access

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any other systems, education,
housing, the the economic

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system, how to get a bank
account, those kinds of things.

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We have a peer support who can,
who has had similar lived

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experience and, and can help
people access and navigate all

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of these different systems that
they need to become stable and,

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and really participate fully in
society.

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We also do a lot, we do a lot of
mental health services.

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We do housing, we do a lot of
community education.

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We have a food bank and A food
pantry.

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So, you know, there's, there's
almost anything you can think

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of.
We interface with all kinds of

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educational systems to help
people get into education, get

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the kind of, you know, schooling
that they want help.

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We help people navigate
employment, hospital systems,

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all just pretty much anything
anybody might need coming from

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our background.
Holy cow.

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So when?
When, when, how was this

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started?
I mean, when was this started?

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What was the impetus behind this
this?

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Is a really interesting story.
So when I left the FLDS in 2004,

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there really wasn't a wasn't an
organization that I could go to

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and trust to help me leave and I
had 4 little kids and two of

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them are special needs.
And so, you know, it took me 6

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years between 1998 and 2000 or
to actually get the resources I

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need to make that right to leave
the FLDS group under Warren

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Jeffs.
So I, I realized that that there

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was going to be something was
needed to, to stand in that gap

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and people started showing up at
my door and asking for help and

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staying on my couch while I
tried to find them existing

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resources.
So, and I'm looking around,

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there were a couple of
organizations that did exist out

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back then, but they were really
anti polygamy organizations.

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They were, their stated goal was
to rescue people from their

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religion.
There was a lot of pathology, a

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lot of a lot of pathology based
services.

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It's like you're bad and wrong
and we're going to make you over

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in our image and make you good
and right.

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And then you'll worship our God
and not your God.

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And, and then there was a lot of
exploitation.

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So if people called those
organizations, they would end up

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on TV having to talk about how
evil their family and community

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was in order for them to be
worthy of services.

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And I would just look at that
and get horrified because I knew

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that that was making it worse.
And I also wouldn't access those

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services because I was not
willing to demonize my family

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and my community.
And so I'm like, this has to be

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different.
We have to provide services that

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are appropriate, that are, you
know, strengths based, that

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offer people choices instead of
telling them what they have to

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do Because, you know, in my
situation, yeah, Warren Jeffs

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isn't telling me what to do
anymore.

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But now you're going to.
And somehow this is better.

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So.
So I started going to school to

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get my to my bachelor's social
work.

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And then I heard about some work
that the Darger family was

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doing, Joe Darger and his wife's
and, and they said, look, we

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heard you want to do this work.
Here's here's what we think,

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here's our philosophy around.
And I'm like, finally, finally

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somebody who's philosophy I can
align with.

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And that really is about, you
know, empowering people to make

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their own choices and, and not
forcing anybody to choose one

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way or the other.
And so and so Alina Darker and I

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started to work together in 20
around 20/13/2014.

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The the bit cherished families
was incorporated and got our

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5O1C3 January of 2014.
And then we were working on a

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volunteer basis until we got our
first grant I think in 2015,

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which allowed her to pay me $500
a month.

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That was my, it was named Big
McDonald's.

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And then in 2016 we got our
first crime victim grant and we

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just, we just mushroomed from
there.

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So now we have, I want to say 22
employees across the state.

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Our budget is, well, I think
this year it's north of $4

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million and we've served people
in Canada and Mexico and 17

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states.
So we're really all over North

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America holy.
Cow.

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It's big.
We have a clinical department,

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we have, we have locations in
northern and southern Utah and

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our advocates are mobile.
So we drive to where people are.

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It's, it's, it's a big
operation.

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But I, I really like what we do
because I am, I'm kind of the

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opposite.
You know, Lena is, is a

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fundamentalist and she's, you
know, very much involved in her

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family and her religion.
And I am the opposite, right?

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I, I gave it all up.
I don't believe in anything, but

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we both align on the fact that
adults have to be given the

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chance and the choice to choose
their religion and the way they

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live.
And for me, I just want them to

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have all of the tools to make
the very best decisions for

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themselves.
And we are not invested in what

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that decision is.
That's entirely up to them.

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And so if I have a woman who's
like, I love being a plural

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wife, I want to go back to my
plural family.

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I'm like, Grant, what do you
need to to have that happen?

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And if I have a woman that says
I need to leave, I'm being

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abused in this, in this
situation, I say, Grant, what

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resources do you wish you had?
I am.

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I am not invested in someone's
choices.

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I'm only invested and they have
the outcomes that they want.

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I, I think that's huge, right?
Because look, Mormonism free

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agent, like there's two things
that are really essential to

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Mormonism. 1 is, is the idea of
the family.

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The other is free agency, right?
And a lot of times I would

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imagine, you know, I don't, I
don't do your kind of work.

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So it would I, I won't pretend
to speak from experience, but I

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think by the time someone
realizes, oh, this isn't really

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what I want and I'm I don't want
to be here anymore.

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That to come out of that.
And like you were saying, go

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into some of those other
organizations that are going to

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throw your face on TV and we're
going to to strip you of what

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you believe and and remake you
in our image.

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That's not necessarily agency
either.

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No, it's not.
And so it's exploitation.

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Yeah, it's exploitation.
And So what what I find so

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fascinating and so awesome about
about what you and Alina have

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done here is that you've given
the power back to the individual

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to make their choices.
And that's huge, right?

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Certainly.
I love my way of life.

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I love being a Mormon
fundamentalist, but I'm also not

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dumb, meaning that I know that
this isn't for everybody, right?

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And, and I don't think anyone
should be forced into this.

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Likewise, I don't think anyone
should be forced to give it up

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if they don't want to, right?
I'm just, I'm kind of like down

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the center.
Just you do you, bro.

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We may not be able to hug it out
on Saturdays, but we can, I

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mean, Sundays, but we can slap
high fives on Saturday, right?

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Absolutely.
And so I, I, I, I, I find that

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very fascinating as you're
starting all this.

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What what are what were some of
the biggest challenges you faced

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in the early days?
And then what are some of the

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bigger challenges you face
today?

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So very early on, in fact,
before, before we even had an

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organization to do anything
with, I was doing, you know,

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work with organizations.
It's like, Hey, I know you have

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housing for, for a woman that's
fleeing abuse.

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And so I'd go and I would try to
work with organizations that did

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exist.
And, and so much of the time,

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the, the bulk of my time was
spent trying to help them

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understand that somebody coming
from these communities are

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actual human beings and they're
worthy of dignity and services.

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Because there was so much stigma
out there.

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And it's just, you know, the
assumption was you're stupid,

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you're bad, you're guilty of
every crime we've ever heard of

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come from there.
And and so, you know, when you

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have when you have underserved
and stigmatized populations,

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everything that gets assigned to
those is everybody in them is,

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is defined by that, right?
And so even still in the news,

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you'll see, you know, a
fundamentalist did whatever

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drove drunk and ran off the
road.

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You'll see in the comments, they
all do that.

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And if they said that about, you
know, somebody in Saint George

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00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,840
did that, if somebody got on the
comments and said, well,

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everybody in Saint George does
that, they would get piled on

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and be like, that's not true,
but it's, it's upheld and it's

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okay when you're talking about
stigmatized populations.

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And so for me, you know, I
would, I experienced this, I

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would go to the doctor for
something and they would, the

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doctor would make me justify my
very existence and why I needed

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services because you polygamists
think this, this and this.

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00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,840
And so it's, it's such a huge
barrier.

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And so for me, again, the, the
biggest part of my time

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00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,880
initially was spent just trying
to humanize the individuals that

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would come and ask for services.
And so now, you know, that

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became a huge part of what we do
is cultural sensitivity training

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for, you know, we do it for the
state now, we do it for the

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Department of Health and Human
Services.

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We do it for hospitals because
it just, there's so much built

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up there.
And it's been what, 185 years of

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this, of this pathology
narrative that we have to take

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down brick by brick for people
so that they can so that they

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can stop seeing someone who's a
polygamist and have all of that

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00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,040
previous idea heaped on that
individual.

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And we have to be able to say,
you need to separate that.

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I don't care what your, what
your position on polygamy is.

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You need to know that this human
being is not guilty of

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everything that you think you
know.

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Right, right.
And is that still the challenge

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today?
Is that one of the bigger

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challenges you think people face
today as well?

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It's not as bad it's been
actually.

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We've we've had, we've made some
great strides in this.

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00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,600
We're able to, you know, work
with universities as they're as

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they're educating their doctors
and their P as that.

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I get to come in and talk to the
students and say, you know, part

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00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,720
of trauma informed care, part of
cultural sensitivity is

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understanding that there's all
these myths around this

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00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,200
population that you need to be
able to just lay on the shelf

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when you walk in that door.
And, and so we're starting to

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00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,200
get some amazing traction that
way in the court systems in, you

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00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,080
know, in various places.
It's an ongoing thing and, and

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00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,200
people are accessing, you know,
accessing the trainings and I

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00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,880
think we're getting a lot better
outcomes, but it's not something

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00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,400
that, you know, we did it once
and now, now we can walk away

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00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,600
because there's turnover in the
employment, right?

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00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,880
And so, and so it's a, it's a
conversation that we're having

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00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,560
all the time.
But I do believe we've made a

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00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,320
lot of strides, and particularly
now that, you know, Utah's

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00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,560
decriminalized, then that can't
be the excuse that people use to

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00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,800
hold on to their prejudice.
Gotcha, gotcha.

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00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,600
You know that thing about the
doctor, like I get nervous going

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00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,680
to the doctor because quite
frankly, when they do the blood

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00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,720
work and like, hey, fatty, we
found the problem.

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00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,600
That's the six cheeseburger
you've had today, right?

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00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,840
That's enough to to worry me,
right?

301
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:06,000
I can't imagine if someone was
like trying to unpack who I am

302
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,880
at the core, right?
That would be enough to be like,

303
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,560
I'm out, right?
Like you can take your white lab

304
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,920
coat and put it somewhere else
because I'm out.

305
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,040
We.
Use better language than I do,

306
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,880
right?
Well, that's only because I'm on

307
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:26,440
the air, but yeah, it it creates
less editing if I kind of do

308
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,760
some self censoring here.
So what?

309
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,640
What would you say is the
biggest challenge you face

310
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,200
today?
Today, I would say that the

311
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,760
demand for our services
outstrips our our funding.

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00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,640
And because we navigate borders,
you know, we navigate state

313
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,600
borders, we navigate
international borders.

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00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,800
Funding's always an issue.
And so in the state of Utah, to

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00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,080
their credit, the state of Utah
has been incredible to fund

316
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,840
programs and to make sure we
have resources.

317
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,840
It seems like if I go to the
state for anything and say, hey,

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00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,280
here's a need that they will
figure out a way to, to get me

319
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:08,840
the funding I need to take care
of that.

320
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,360
Now then the state of Arizona,
it's been the opposite.

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00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,280
We've served more than 900
citizens of Arizona with 0

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00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,560
funding from the state.
And so, and so that's a huge

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00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,320
challenge for us and trying to,
you know, cobble together

324
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,720
pennies here and dollars there
to, to get people mental health

325
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,920
services.
And, and right now mental health

326
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:34,280
services is, is a huge, huge
part of, of our work.

327
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,640
I would say, you know what, we
know, particularly with the FLDS

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00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,840
population that the structure
dissolved.

329
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,280
People were taken away from
their families, people were

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00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:46,600
taken away from their
communities.

331
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,080
And so the belonging needs, the
identity needs just got

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00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,440
destroyed.
And that has a huge toll on

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00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,920
people.
And so right now in the FLDS, we

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00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,920
have an A suicide rate that's
960% higher than the national

335
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:05,040
severe benchmark.
We have a suicide, Oh, I don't

336
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,760
know, sometimes it's a couple of
times a month, sometimes it's

337
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,600
once a month, but I don't know
that there's any family that's

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00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,360
not been touched by suicide.
And then of course that creates

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00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:17,560
a lot of needs on its own too.
We have a lot of ambiguous loss,

340
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,760
a lot of non death loss, a lot
of, you know, loss by death and,

341
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,960
and so mental health services is
huge.

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00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,400
And so for people who are not
citizens of Utah, I don't have

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00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,600
money except in private
fundraising to actually provide

344
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,520
those services.
Gotcha.

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00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:41,320
When, when this all comes about
right where, where someone

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00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,520
decides, you know what, it's
it's time for me to, to get out

347
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,960
of here.
What does that process look

348
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:47,480
like?
Right.

349
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,760
I, I, I would like to talk about
it in Utah and then maybe

350
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,880
different borders and that sort
of thing.

351
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:56,880
Now there may be some stuff and
I completely understand that you

352
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,480
can't tell me if it's
operational kind of stuff.

353
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,400
I get that.
But but what can you share?

354
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,680
How does this process work?
So one of the things that I

355
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,520
mean, I, I always knew it, but I
just get reminded every single

356
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,400
day and that is every person is
so different.

357
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,360
And so we have to be able to
meet people wherever and however

358
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:21,000
they walk in the door, right?
And so, and so everybody

359
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,320
presents with different needs
and different ideas.

360
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,400
So, but just in general, you
know, if somebody decides that

361
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,840
they need help, they need to get
out of a violent situation, they

362
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,720
want to leave, you know, the
FLDS or some other group, Samuel

363
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,800
Bateman group, that's become
very pathological.

364
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,840
Then we just have a phone number
or we have a website.

365
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,080
We just encourage people to call
our number and ask for an intake

366
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,040
because at intake we can just
find out everything they might

367
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,120
need and, and just start
providing inputs.

368
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:56,040
Of course, safety's always 1st.
And so if somebody comes and

369
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,640
they're in danger, we're going
to focus on that before we focus

370
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,320
on, oh, let's get you into
school, Let's get you moved to,

371
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:05,840
you know, wherever your family
is in Idaho, whatever it's, it's

372
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,720
safety needs 1st.
And so we always triage,

373
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,800
obviously.
And then, and then find out what

374
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,920
their goals are, what they want,
if they want to, to move, if

375
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,000
they wanted to get into housing,
if they want mental health

376
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,840
services, education, whatever
that looks like.

377
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,080
And many, many, sometimes, you
know, people come in the door.

378
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,480
If you know anything about
trauma informed care, somebody

379
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,040
that's been through a lot, you
know, of, of trauma of, of non

380
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,160
death loss, all those kinds of
things.

381
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,280
It's, it's can be really
difficult to access the, the

382
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,720
thinking centers of the brain
because you're in fight or

383
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,680
flight, right?
Your, your amygdala has taken

384
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,240
over and you're on high alert.
And so, and so coming in the

385
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,800
door, first of all, that takes a
lot of courage.

386
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,880
And there's always so much, I
mean, just I, I celebrate so

387
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,640
much anybody that asks for help.
And so, and so just getting,

388
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,880
getting someone into a very calm
place.

389
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,080
You know, we do, we do like the
tapping.

390
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,840
We do things that help calm the,
the, what's it called the limbic

391
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,360
system so that, so that the
thinking centers can come online

392
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:06,680
and then we start making
decisions.

393
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,440
But we don't ask people to make
decisions when they come in, if

394
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,960
they're in, if they're in full
on flight, It's just a matter of

395
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,120
safety.
We make sure they feel safe.

396
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,920
And then we make sure that the,
you know, we start addressing

397
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,120
things as we can.
So being trauma informed and

398
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:24,680
having really good evidence
based programs is, is something

399
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,360
that I'm very, very proud of
with our organization.

400
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,320
So yeah, it's just, it's just a
matter of either walking in the

401
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,200
door, making the phone call,
getting online and saying I need

402
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,200
help.
But more than anything else, we

403
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,400
don't have people coming in just
cold.

404
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,640
Mostly it's people getting
referrals from other clients,

405
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,120
from other family members
saying, hey, cherish families

406
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:45,720
help me a lot.
You really ought to call them

407
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,480
because that that, that learned
trust, that that conferred

408
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,040
trust.
It's a big deal.

409
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,760
We are, we are a population of
people who didn't know who we

410
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,760
could trust, didn't know where
we were going to be safe.

411
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,720
And so if somebody says to you
that doctor is a good doctor, he

412
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,680
treats the plagues well, we're
going to go to that doctor, he's

413
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,640
going to get overwhelmed.
There's a dentist here in Saint

414
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,320
George that gets everybody
because he got the, he got the

415
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,080
reputation that he was going to
treat people with respect.

416
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,400
So everybody goes to him
literally.

417
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,280
And so it's, it's the same
thing, you know, with us, it's,

418
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,880
it's a conferred respect that we
treated people well, made sure

419
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,640
that they got what they asked
for in a way that they asked for

420
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,680
it.
And so it's always, it's the

421
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,000
vast majority are referrals of
people walking in the door.

422
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:37,480
Wow.
What I want to go back to to the

423
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,360
mental health thing, because I
do think that that's really

424
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:46,400
important when when we start
looking at at that sort of

425
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,760
thing, you said it's hard to get
services for that.

426
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,960
Is that due to funding?
Is that due to the availability

427
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,560
of qualified counselors?
What?

428
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,520
What?
What are the barriers there?

429
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,720
So the funding, what I'm talking
about, the funding for Arizona

430
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,800
citizens, it's, it's really
about funding.

431
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,760
Now if, if somebody's on
Medicaid or has insurance, we

432
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,840
can get them connected with,
with a counselor that we have

433
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,360
vetted and they've, they've gone
through the cultural sensitivity

434
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:18,000
training.
We will not refer to anyone who

435
00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:20,640
who has not proven that they
could be culturally sensitive.

436
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,400
And so it's really the uninsured
people who are either falling

437
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,600
through the cracks or don't dare
apply for Medicaid or something

438
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,320
like that because, you know,
history.

439
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,880
So those are the ones that we,
we have a really hard time

440
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,760
finding.
And there's also a huge lack of,

441
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,720
of qualified mental health
providers just right now across

442
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,760
the United States, across the
board.

443
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,600
You know, everybody's,
everybody's always looking for

444
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,640
them.
But we do have on staff right

445
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,560
now.
We have 3 therapists that we

446
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,800
have employed and whenever they
have an opening we're we're

447
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,080
fitting people in with them.
Wow.

448
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,840
Well.
Funding, yeah, funding is, is

449
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,520
always, always the question.
No to you kids going to college,

450
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,360
you may want to think about
switching your major.

451
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,240
Right, They can pretty much
write their own checks, right?

452
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,960
Now, right, it sounds like it,
it sounds like it.

453
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,240
So I I got another question
right?

454
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:20,280
And this is something that has
has really been at the forefront

455
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,280
of my mind, especially since
starting to do the podcast.

456
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,600
And that is what's I think for a
lot of us.

457
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,600
We thought, OK, Warren Jeffs is
in jail.

458
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,080
The FLDS are going to get
cleaned up.

459
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,120
Is that what you're seeing?
What's what's going on down

460
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:42,000
there now?
Well, I mean, yes and no and,

461
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,920
and you know, it's, it's,
there's never a simple answer to

462
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,880
anything when it comes to the
FLDS because there it's made-up

463
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,680
of what, 10,000 individuals?
The, the yes part of it is that

464
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,920
since Warren Jeffs was
imprisoned, the attrition rate

465
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,320
is, is hovering around 90%.
Like as far as people who

466
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,600
actually follow Warren Jeffs or
his acolytes, it's about a tenth

467
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,280
of the number of people who used
to.

468
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,720
So, you know, we think there are
maybe 1500 people who are still

469
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,600
trying to follow him and
everybody else has kind of

470
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,640
fallen away.
Maybe, you know, found other

471
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,360
groups to join or something like
that.

472
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:21,440
And so Warren doesn't have
access to harm the number of

473
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,160
people that he did.
Now that's a good thing, and it

474
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,960
creates other problems because
when?

475
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,040
People.
Well, I mean, yeah, it gives

476
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,240
rise to somebody like Samuel
Bateman, right?

477
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,680
But but the other problem is
that when people suddenly have,

478
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,920
you know, that the loss of
community and family and

479
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,720
structure and all of the things
that we had, then there's a lot

480
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,200
of mental health issues around
that.

481
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,120
There's a lack of belonging,
which drives the suicide rate.

482
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,360
There's a, there's a lack of
structure in a lot of things.

483
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:57,080
And so sometimes I see like
parents who haven't had their

484
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,520
kids, Warner Jeffs took them
away from them and then they

485
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,240
went and got them back.
But when they were taken away,

486
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,080
they were 6-7 years old.
But when they got them back,

487
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,240
they were 1314.
So they didn't get an

488
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,360
opportunity to raise those kids.
And now they don't know how to

489
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:12,800
parent either.
And so they want to just be

490
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,800
friends with their kids.
They want to, you know, let's go

491
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,000
smoke marijuana together so they
can kind of win back that love.

492
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:25,400
And so, so all of the, the lack
of structure creates more need,

493
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,000
right?
It's not like Warren Jeffs is

494
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,400
gone and now everybody's happy,
healthy and safe.

495
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,280
That's not, that's not true.
Now we're dealing with the

496
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,400
fallout of just the destruction
of the community and and the the

497
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,400
culture.
Wow.

498
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:43,440
You know, you, you raise, you
raise some interesting points

499
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,880
there, right?
Because anytime you leave a

500
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:53,400
structure, whether you realize
it or not, you look, I'm a

501
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,640
pretty independently minded guy,
right?

502
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,840
Like Mormonism in some ways,
especially when I joined the LDS

503
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,200
church, seemed pretty
counterintuitive, right?

504
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,840
I'm not a fan of hierarchy.
I tend to be a little, you know,

505
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,320
look, I named the podcast What I
Did for a reason, right?

506
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,880
It wasn't, it wasn't my
happenstance.

507
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,920
And so coming into Mormonism,
you know, into the LDS church,

508
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,760
right?
And I don't, I'm not trying to

509
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,960
say the LDS church was bad in
that sense, right?

510
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,040
It really wasn't.
But it was still very hierarchy

511
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,040
oriented, right?
Oh yeah.

512
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,840
And then when I left, it was
kind of like, well, what do I do

513
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,480
now, right?
Like all of a sudden?

514
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,960
And for a guy that's as
independently minded as I am,

515
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,040
right?
And it's like, I thought I could

516
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,160
just walk out and be like, OK, I
don't need anybody.

517
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,840
Well, that wasn't the case,
right?

518
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,320
Because quite frankly, I still
believe in Mormonism, right?

519
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,160
And certainly there are
independents that make that

520
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,760
work.
But I think we're silly if we

521
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,760
say we all don't need community
in one sense or another, right?

522
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,400
And also, if you're you're
really following what Joseph was

523
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,760
about, it's about the sense of
community, right?

524
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,760
Zion, right?
And you can build that.

525
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,840
You can, you can have a Zion
type family, but you can't have

526
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:15,000
that without other people.
So this idea that that you can

527
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,440
just kind of be totally ruggedly
individual.

528
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,920
Some guys pull it off, right?
But the vast majority, I think

529
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,040
we recognize we need that.
And So what kind of tools do you

530
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,720
give folks who are coming out of
that where they find a structure

531
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,600
again, right?
That's got to be huge, right?

532
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,720
Because whether we like it or
not, we're all subject, I think,

533
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:43,400
to a certain amount of structure
being somewhat comforting,

534
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,400
right?
I, I go back to the normalcy

535
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,320
bias, right?
Because I'm a nerd and I don't

536
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,200
sleep a whole lot.
I read a lot and I read a book

537
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,440
about the normalcy bias and it
used people in 9/11, right?

538
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,920
When those, when those planes
hit, some people stopped, turned

539
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,360
around, went back upstairs to
turn off their computer, right?

540
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,400
But, but that's your brains
coping mechanism for anything

541
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,720
that is truly traumatic and out
of the structure.

542
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,320
So, so how, how is it that you
guys are able to provide some of

543
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,120
that structure to folks who need
that in order to just get their

544
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,400
bearings?
Because I've also seen people

545
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,480
when they do leave religion, any
religion, it's like, well, I

546
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,160
guess I'm not part of a religion
anymore.

547
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:27,840
I guess I can go do cocaine,
right?

548
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,200
And it's like, whoa, slow down,
bro.

549
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,200
Right.
Like going with the.

550
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:32,960
Baby out with the bathwater.
Yeah, right.

551
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,640
I've seen it.
Yeah, yeah.

552
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,320
And and that was never a thing
for me because I kind of came

553
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,400
from that kind of background and
growing up.

554
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,320
And so I knew I didn't want to
go back there.

555
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,120
But for folks who haven't really
experienced any of that, I mean,

556
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:46,800
how do you kind of keep them
safe, right?

557
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,440
I mean, there's got to kind of
save them from the cells.

558
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,800
I know that might sound kind of
bad on the surface, but.

559
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,360
Yeah, we, I mean, we, we try not
to use the rescue or save

560
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,240
language because I think it's
inherently disempowering.

561
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,280
But you know, I mean, you're,
you're absolutely right about,

562
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,800
about the human need for
structure and belonging like

563
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,960
that, that community.
We, you know, according to

564
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,440
Maslow, that the need to belong
is the number one human

565
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,680
psychological need.
And, you know, second only to

566
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,440
safety, breathing, eating water,
right.

567
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:25,760
So, so that the social animal
part is, is really kind of a

568
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,120
higher function.
I think it's Margaret Mead said

569
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,680
she could tell when civilization
started to really take off and

570
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,800
when people were safe or because
they were together.

571
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:40,200
It's because you could find, you
know, broken femurs that had

572
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,280
healed instead of just leaving
somebody behind to die.

573
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,560
They kept them with them long
enough to you heal and they

574
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,560
could, they could be part of the
the community, right?

575
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,840
And so that's how I look at this
is this kind of an

576
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,840
anthropological study of if we
are bringing along in our

577
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,040
community, if we're keeping
people and helping them find

578
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,000
safety and, and belonging, even
though they might have higher

579
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,480
needs, that means we are higher
functioning.

580
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,280
So one of the things we've done
for, you know, for FLDS refugees

581
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,400
particularly is just trying to
recreate community in a

582
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,160
different way.
So in, in Short Creek, Colorado

583
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,200
City and Hilldale, for example,
we've we're completely remaking

584
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,120
the town now.
Both city councils are

585
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,640
completely out of the control of
the church.

586
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,520
They're elected by the residents
and we're building a Community

587
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,520
Center, we're building parks and
trails and rec centers and, and

588
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,680
we're creating all of these
community events like we used to

589
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,040
have, but but not a church
directed program, right?

590
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,080
They are all, they're all civic
directed.

591
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,760
So we're bringing back art,
we're bringing back music and

592
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,080
performance and all of those
kinds of things in an effort to

593
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,480
help people reconnect in a way,
however they want, in a way that

594
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,360
they don't have to fit
somebody's version of what God

595
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,120
wants them to look at right
before they're allowed to

596
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,800
participate.
So and, and to cherish families

597
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,880
in both locations, we're
providing classes, we do art

598
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,560
therapy, we do, you know, book
clubs and, and different things

599
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,600
like that.
So, so we're helping people

600
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,640
connect to social opportunities
in a really non threatening and

601
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,680
inviting way to help people
rebuild those ties.

602
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,320
And, and because we don't take a
position on religion and

603
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,000
polygamy and all that, we, we
don't provide church

604
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,080
opportunities because we feel
like, you know, that's, that's

605
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,160
really invasive, particularly
for somebody who's receiving

606
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,440
services and they start to feel
like it, oh, is that a

607
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,400
requirement for me to receive
services?

608
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,600
Do I need to go back to church?
And so we're really, really

609
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,640
careful not to offer any
religious kinds of, of, of

610
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,120
social offerings.
But we do, you know, first

611
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,560
Christmas and, and letting you
know, a Christmas craft event

612
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,800
where all the kids come and make
an ornament and decorate cookies

613
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,680
and all those things.
And we're having a just huge

614
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,080
turn out.
I think our last Christmas craft

615
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,160
event had, if I remember right,
they said 600 people come in.

616
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:09,639
So, so we know that attending to
social needs is really, really

617
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:11,560
critical to healing this
population.

618
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,440
And that's got to take a toll on
your resources as well, right?

619
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,480
I mean, you can't put on some of
those things without a little

620
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,280
bit of Jack, right?
To, to spread around and, and

621
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,960
pay for that stuff.
I'm thinking like, that's a lot

622
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,120
of canvas, right?
For the art thing, right?

623
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,679
Yeah.
Yeah, a lot of paint.

624
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,040
So as as you how so you've been
at this since 2004 now, right.

625
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,120
Is that kind of what I'm
understanding kind of it?

626
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,920
It started very informal with
folks on your couch.

627
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,800
Yeah, in a, in a grassroots way.
And Elena was the same.

628
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,840
And Elena was never part of the
FLDS.

629
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,679
They, they came from the
independent, you know, kind of

630
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,080
expression.
But that was the same thing was

631
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,560
happening to them because they
had family who were part of

632
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,239
Shore Creek.
And so people were showing up

633
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,040
and asking them for help.
So we were, yes, independently

634
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,200
doing grassroots social work
that we really didn't, we

635
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,200
weren't equipped for, let me
just put it that way.

636
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:13,600
Yep Yep, as you've done this now
for 20 years now right what what

637
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,320
do you think some of your
biggest successes have been and

638
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,440
some of some of your worst heart
breaks 'cause I think it's

639
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:25,600
important to point those out
because we look, we all want a

640
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,640
happy ending, right?
We all want that feel good story

641
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,400
at the end of the movie, but
sometimes that doesn't always

642
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,760
work out.
And and I think if there's

643
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,680
people who feel called to this,
I feel like that that has to be

644
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,160
on the table to know that you
know what, this isn't always

645
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:44,880
going to go the way you want it
to go.

646
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,160
What what have been some of your
experiences there, without

647
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,600
naming names or or giving away
anything?

648
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,120
Well, I'm going to start with
with my biggest heart breaks

649
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,240
because I really, really want to
end on there.

650
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,320
I want to finish up this with
the with the happy ones.

651
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:08,560
My biggest heart breaks.
I don't know that I'm ever going

652
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,880
to get over this.
Anytime someone dies by suicide,

653
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:22,160
I think I failed them because I
didn't get the resources to them

654
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:30,400
that they needed and and I know
in my brain that it's not my

655
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:36,000
fault but I can't I convince my
heart.

656
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:46,600
Oh man, so.
Want more from the Mormon

657
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,280
Renegade podcast?
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658
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,200
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659
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,360
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660
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:00,720
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661
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662
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,480
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663
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664
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,880
Dave Sanders.
Click the link in this episode's

665
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,720
show notes today.
Because I didn't get the

666
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:22,640
resources to them that they
needed.

667
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:32,800
And and I know in my brain that
it's not my fault, but I can't.

668
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,880
I can Vince my heart.
Oh man.

669
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:49,160
So.
So that's always occupies a lot

670
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:54,920
of my time thinking about how to
make sure that we're getting the

671
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,000
resources and getting the
information out there, which

672
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,360
honestly, thank you.
What just hopefully by being on

673
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,000
this podcast, we can let people
know the resources are out there

674
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,280
and they don't have to resort to
that because getting the

675
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,680
outreach to the people who need
it, you know, sometimes we just

676
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,160
don't know where to look.
They're scattered to the four

677
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,840
winds and, and so, and so if, if
they're completely alone and

678
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,000
living in, you know, Vermont, we
don't know where they are or how

679
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,040
to reach them.
And so and so learning how to

680
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,880
reach people is a, is a big part
of what we try to do.

681
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,680
Now I'm going to move on to the
happy things.

682
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:43,400
It's for me understanding that
we are changing the trajectory

683
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:49,080
for future generations is such a
huge, huge piece of what keeps

684
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,960
me going.
We are playing the long game.

685
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,800
We're not here to just, you
know, be a flash in the pan and

686
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,840
get somebody some fancy outfit.
And then we think we've saved

687
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,320
them and we shove them off.
We follow families for as long

688
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,320
as they want to be followed.
And, and for me, you know, if we

689
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,280
got a mom, a single mom that
comes to us with five kids and

690
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,560
the oldest ones are not in
school because they have to stay

691
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,360
home and babysit so that the mom
can work and support the family.

692
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,480
If we get that child back in
school and get them the

693
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,800
resources we need and we make
sure they get the, you know,

694
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,920
mental health services and the
food and all that, I know that

695
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,560
in 20 years we're going to have
an amazing member of society.

696
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,840
And for me, that is a huge, huge
thing to look forward to

697
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,600
whenever I have somebody come up
to me and say, I, and this

698
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,720
actually happened.
And I, I don't even know her

699
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:37,800
name, so I don't know.
I hope I'm not outing her.

700
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,000
But this girl came up to me at
the, at the Independence Day

701
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,440
celebration in Colorado City two
years ago.

702
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,000
And she said, Hey, my mom said
to come and find you.

703
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,880
She said, I have to thank you.
And I said thank me for what she

704
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,320
said.
Well, now I live in this other

705
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:54,160
state.
She named it.

706
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,920
And I just graduated with a
construction management degree

707
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,160
and I'm making a lot of money
and I just have a great life.

708
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:03,280
I'm like, that is such great
news.

709
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,440
I am so happy to hear that.
And I didn't even know who she

710
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,080
was.
But it was her mom got the help

711
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,080
she needed so that this girl
could go and, and take ownership

712
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,240
of her life.
And those kinds of stories

713
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,240
really are what keep me, you
know, the 1/2 of me that's

714
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,840
that's over crying in the corner
about suicide.

715
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,760
And the other half of me is
celebrating because I know that

716
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,800
we have changed the future for
not just this mom and then her

717
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,400
daughter, but also her children
and and going forward.

718
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,560
Yeah, I, you know, I, I'll be
honest, as you were talking

719
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,240
there, one of the things,
especially as you were talking

720
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:44,680
about some of the things that
that you think you, that you,

721
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,320
that we both wish things would
have went differently was just

722
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,920
that scene out of Schindler's
List when he's like, if I did

723
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,880
just done this or this or this.
And I'll say this perspective is

724
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,520
never had in the moment.
Surely it's always something you

725
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,240
have to look back on, right?
That's right.

726
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,080
The, the, it's horrible.
This is, this is how you know

727
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,640
how flawed I am.
Then you reminded me of a

728
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,360
different movie, which was which
was Gladiator.

729
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,360
There's a great line where he
says what we do here ripples

730
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,360
through eternity.
Now, whether you're a believer

731
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:30,040
in, in the spiritual or God or
whatever or not, that's a true

732
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,920
principle, right?
Because that will be that girl's

733
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,880
kids and her kids and her
grandchildren and her great

734
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,480
grandchildren.
This is something that goes on

735
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,040
forever.
This is something that

736
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:49,040
absolutely has generational type
impacts on it.

737
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:56,040
Let let me ask you this, what
can the fundamentalist community

738
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,200
at large, and I'm not singling
out anyone group or any one

739
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,880
person, but but what can
fundamentalist at large do to

740
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:08,120
help push this forward?
Because I'll be honest, I, I, we

741
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:13,120
live in a unique time now where
quite frankly, our lifestyle is

742
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,720
kind of one of the most tamer
ones out there now, right?

743
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:17,160
Like.
Isn't that the truth?

744
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:22,120
Like, like I Remember Me and my
and again, I'm very libertarian

745
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,720
in my approach, right?
I'm like, whatever you do, you

746
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:25,920
do that.
You do you, bro.

747
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,880
It's between you, your God, lack
of God, whatever you do you

748
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:32,280
right.
But I remember I was sitting on

749
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,240
the couch with with both the
girls during June back in 2023.

750
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:38,200
And I just went.
You remember when we were the

751
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,320
strangest thing out there?
Like times have changed, right?

752
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,960
And one of the things that that
I think is incumbent upon us now

753
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,840
is that we have to kind of work
to move past these stereotypes

754
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,120
that, quite frankly, we allowed
to be heaped on us, right?

755
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,440
We didn't, we didn't tell our
own story.

756
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,920
And, and I think this is part of
of how we got here.

757
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:06,480
But I think a good part of that
is trying to to point out abuse

758
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,720
when it does happen, right?
You never want to be

759
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:12,760
freewheeling with with that
word, right?

760
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,200
There's a difference between
domestic disharmony and then

761
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,880
real abuse, right?
But we have to point that out

762
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,000
when it happens.
And we have to say that's not

763
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,480
OK.
That's not OK from from our

764
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,120
religious perspective, right?
There is nothing I read from

765
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,760
Joseph or Brigham that they
would have been cool with

766
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,520
abusing your spouse or your
children.

767
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,680
Yeah.
So we have to point that out.

768
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,320
We have to grow a backbone I
think a little bit for at times

769
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,640
and just be willing to call it
out.

770
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,080
And so organizations like yours,
I think are leading the way in

771
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,440
that.
And So what could the

772
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,920
fundamentalist community at
large do to help support you

773
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:00,400
guys, to help help with with on
the ground needs, those sorts of

774
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,920
things?
OK, so there's a lot in there.

775
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,320
Let me see if I can remember
everything.

776
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,960
Let me, let me just go back and
just start by saying I, I, I

777
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,760
don't like to blame the victim,
right?

778
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,160
I, I know that there's been a
lot of, of stigma and prejudice

779
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,800
heat on fundamentalist that is
unfair.

780
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:24,760
So, so there's been this, the,
the backlash was, well, let's

781
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,040
just go underground.
Let's not, let's not talk about

782
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,560
ourselves and all of that.
And I understand, I understand

783
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,520
that impulse and I, you know,
particularly when, you know, it

784
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,320
was a felony to do, to live your
religion.

785
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:38,920
And so for me, I'm not
demonizing people for having

786
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:44,480
done that, but I do want people
to really start thinking about

787
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,600
what an amazing opportunity we
have right now.

788
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,120
We're like, we're at a
crossroads and and we can't come

789
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,480
back and do different right?
Right now.

790
00:44:53,960 --> 00:45:00,160
If the various states start to
see fundamentalists say, no, we

791
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,840
don't do that here, you are
going to get turned in for this.

792
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:05,480
No, you're not allowed to do
that.

793
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,240
You're going to get turned in
then then there's going to be a

794
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:10,800
sea change.
And right now is the opportunity

795
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,240
to do this.
We start being a lot more open

796
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:18,720
and transparent about we are, we
are taking care of of abusers.

797
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,280
We are not allowing allowing
sexual assault or underage

798
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,000
sexual, you know, rape in our
communities.

799
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,120
You will be ostracized then.
And knowing that you're not, you

800
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,960
know, I'm not going to be
arrested as a felon because I'm

801
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,680
a fundamentalist because I
reported, you know, somebody

802
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,440
who's doing this.
This is the opportunity.

803
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:43,560
And so and so it's, it's going
to be a little bit hard, I think

804
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,280
for people who are so entrenched
in the, we don't report because,

805
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,400
you know, when I left, I was a
felony.

806
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,280
And so if I had reported abuse
against my children, I could

807
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:55,480
have had them taken from me,
right?

808
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,480
That's not the case anymore.
But sometimes it takes some time

809
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,640
for that to sink in.
But I think that leaders can

810
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,800
really step up and say, look, we
need to be able to do this.

811
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,200
We need to, to take care of our
children.

812
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,280
We need to put our our money
where our mouth is and we need

813
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,800
to help victims get services.
So, so I will say that there is

814
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,880
one of the groups, I'm not, I'm
not going to name anybody who

815
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:24,800
has actually been telling their
their adherence report that

816
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,080
crime, get that help, who have
been having us come in and do

817
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,360
trainings, which I think is
huge.

818
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,880
You know, if I start to see a
trajectory shift like that, then

819
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,240
then I can have a lot of
respect.

820
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:38,080
I'm like, OK, you really are
following the teachings that you

821
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,560
profess to believe in, right?
So, so that's one part of it.

822
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,000
This is a really good
opportunity.

823
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,560
Another part is, you know, call
and find out what services are

824
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,760
available for you and your
family, because there's probably

825
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,400
something that we can help with
that's going to strengthen

826
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,120
families and, and help families
be on their feet and, and have

827
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,400
what they need.
And then the other two is, is,

828
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,840
you know, support financially.
This, this is our target

829
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,000
population.
This is the only people we help.

830
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,720
And so I don't, I don't know who
the wealthy fundamental, I mean,

831
00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:11,400
I know who some of the wealthy
fundamentalists are.

832
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:17,520
But but but one thing that's
happened, I think well, and this

833
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,360
is just my opinion and maybe I
shouldn't say this.

834
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:21,560
Oh no, I make a living out of
that.

835
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,120
You're fine.
I actually, I don't make a

836
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,560
living out of that.
I make a living out of working

837
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,160
and I do this as a full time
hobby.

838
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,800
But anyway, no, it's fine.
You're you're totally good here

839
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,240
to do that.
OK, well, I mean, one of the

840
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:35,880
things that's happened is, you
know, if if a woman comes and

841
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,240
says I no longer want to be part
of that and we facilitate her

842
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:43,800
leaving, then we get a really
bad reputation as the divorce

843
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,600
agency.
And you shouldn't, you shouldn't

844
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,640
help women leave.
And I'm like, why would you want

845
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,800
to force someone to stay that
doesn't track, that doesn't

846
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,880
track.
But the then then, you know, on

847
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,000
the other side of it, we get
tons of criticism because for,

848
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,840
for other people who are anti
polygamy, the fact that we will

849
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,320
not decry the religion.
We're told you force women to go

850
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,040
back into polygamy and you're a
polygamy lover.

851
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:09,720
And you, you know, you're
upholding polygamy.

852
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:12,600
And, and the other side is you
guys hate polygamy and you're,

853
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,480
you're the divorce agency.
And I'm like I'm I'm not.

854
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,920
Usually that means you're on the
right track, right?

855
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,680
If both extremes don't like you.
It's been my experience, you're

856
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,640
probably right where you want to
be.

857
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:33,320
My grandfather, who who flew
planes in Korea said you're

858
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,040
you're not over the target if
you're not taking flak.

859
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,040
If you're not receiving flak,
that's right.

860
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,600
And, and so I tend to look at
that like when, when those times

861
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,480
happen to me, I tend to be like,
I'm over the target, right?

862
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:50,280
I've done something to irritate
somebody that didn't want light

863
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,880
shone or whatever.
And so I'm, I'm, I'm very

864
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,240
cognizant of that.
Yeah.

865
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,640
How do you work past that with
certain certain fundamentalists,

866
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,080
right?
Certain groups, individuals,

867
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,920
whatever.
How do you get past that idea

868
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,120
of, gosh, they're just here to
break up your family, That's

869
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:12,800
what they're about?
Well, I, we, we don't spend a

870
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,400
lot of time trying to court
people's good opinion.

871
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,400
I mean, we're too busy in the
1st place.

872
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,320
We, we let our work speak for
itself.

873
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,920
I think we've done enough.
We were very, very active in the

874
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,320
decriminalization.
We have helped a lot of plural

875
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,800
families receive mental health
counseling to stay together

876
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,120
because that was their stated
goal, right?

877
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,280
And so and so for us, it's like
if, if we're strengthening

878
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,120
families, if people are getting
what they need so that they can

879
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:42,960
be strong, they can stand on
their own 2 feet.

880
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,120
That's, that's my record.
And I don't need to go and, and

881
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,560
try to make change somebody's
opinion about me.

882
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,960
If they don't like me, I just,
it's, that's not my job.

883
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,800
My mom used to tell me all the
time other people's opinion of

884
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:01,120
me is not my business.
Right, right.

885
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,160
No, absolutely that it.
I think you're right though.

886
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,440
You, you just got to let the
work speak for itself, right?

887
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,920
And look, I don't have just
anybody on, right?

888
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,960
When Joshua brought brought this
up, I was like, OK, let's do

889
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,280
some homework first, right?
And then as I did it, I was

890
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,000
like, Oh yeah, no, this is good
stuff.

891
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,640
And and so you, you do have to
let the work speak for itself.

892
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,720
I want to go back to the
decriminalization thing.

893
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,840
Was that a debate that was
everybody in the organization on

894
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:38,800
board with that decision to to
support that bill as much as you

895
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:44,440
guys did?
I assume, I assume everybody was

896
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,200
because nobody in our
organization works with people

897
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,920
unless they understand the
history and fairs and barriers.

898
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:58,160
And when you know that the, the
felony status is one of the big,

899
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,600
big barriers for people
receiving services, you have to

900
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,000
be in support of that.
I didn't hear anyone say they

901
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,240
were not.
And and obviously everyone in

902
00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:09,080
leadership was a was in support
of that.

903
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,760
And I, and I think it surprises
a lot of people for, for me

904
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,920
specifically because I'm, I'm
quite a contradictory person.

905
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,160
I'm a, I'm a feminist and all of
this stuff.

906
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,720
I, I'm not a fan of polygamy and
I'm not a fan of monogamy

907
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:27,240
either.
I think that there's a lot of

908
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:32,000
things in even the marriage, you
know, vows that are, that are

909
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:33,600
harmful to women.
There's a lot of things in our

910
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,160
expectations and structures in
this country that are

911
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,440
inherently, you know, create
second class citizens out of

912
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,280
women.
I mean, the marriage vow, who

913
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,160
gives this woman?
It's like, who's chattelish

914
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,360
today, right?
I have a problem with that, but

915
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,720
I don't have a problem with
somebody else deciding they want

916
00:51:47,720 --> 00:51:49,360
to be married.
I don't have a problem with

917
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,680
somebody else deciding that they
want to be a fundamentalist.

918
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,320
Like that's not my business.
You know, my business is how I

919
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,240
want to order my life.
And so because people know that

920
00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:02,240
that's how I feel, then they're
like, why are you trying to

921
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:06,360
decriminalize polygamy?
I'm like, because having women

922
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:11,800
live in the shadows is so much
more disempowering than it, you

923
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,680
know, anything else.
If a woman got married and had

924
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,320
to live underground so that she
was vulnerable to exploitation

925
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:21,120
at every turn, I would be, I
would be, you know, fighting to

926
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:27,120
legalize marriage.
For me, it's like, do do the

927
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:31,360
least harm, do harm reduction.
What is it that's forcing people

928
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,600
to be in a place where they
don't have choices?

929
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:39,160
And so and so, yeah, I'm, I'm,
I'm quite a contradictory person

930
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,040
that way.
But, and I, it's the same thing

931
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:42,720
too.
Even even with religion, you

932
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:45,840
know, I don't feel like I'm
upholding a religious structure.

933
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,520
I had, I think I'm upholding
people's rights as adults to

934
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,600
make choices and bringing them
out of the shadows so that they

935
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:57,040
had access to medical care and
education and whatever it is

936
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,600
they need to live healthy,
productive lives.

937
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:04,560
So, and I'll, and I'll just even
go back to the, you know, when

938
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,080
you, you said something about
you don't know what my religion

939
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:08,680
is.
And the truth is, you know,

940
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:12,880
once, once I left the FLDS, I, I
wanted to be an atheist.

941
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,040
I was like, I don't believe any
of this.

942
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,240
I'm, I'm rejecting all of this.
And so I just started living my

943
00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:21,920
life as, you know, I'm going to
do this work because it's, it

944
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,480
calls to me.
But one of the things that I've

945
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:31,760
realized is that I am my, my
spirituality is that I know that

946
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,720
I'm doing what I came here to do
because I can't get out of it.

947
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:40,360
I've tried.
That's so interesting from

948
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,720
someone who wanted to be an
atheist right that that place

949
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,000
look, you're talking to the most
reluctant of Mormons.

950
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,280
Let me get that out of the way
right.

951
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,720
Like I remember complaining
after I got off my knees like I

952
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:57,160
don't want to be a Mormon.
Those guys are weird.

953
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,840
Little did I know in 20 some
years I would go way weird.

954
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:07,160
But I mean, in that moment, in
that moment, yeah, no.

955
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,720
So I kind of get what you're
talking about there, right?

956
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,160
That's that's an interesting
place for you to be, right to,

957
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:14,800
to be like, I want to be an
atheist.

958
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,480
But the same time, there seems
to be something kind of bigger

959
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:20,960
here that's keeping me in this.
Yeah, yeah.

960
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,320
And that's where that's really
where I've arrived.

961
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,520
I've done a ton of meditation,
I've done a ton of inner work.

962
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,000
And, and one of the things that
that I've arrived at is first of

963
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,960
all, I don't know.
I don't think hardly anybody

964
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:35,240
know.
I don't think really anybody

965
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:39,400
knows what's after this.
But there is to me with all the

966
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,400
meditation, with everything I've
done, I at least have the

967
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,520
humility to say, I don't know
what it is.

968
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,480
And I believe there's something,
some intelligence, something

969
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,880
I've encountered meditation.
I, I'm willing to say that and

970
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,880
to say, I don't know what it is.
And to be OK with not knowing.

971
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:56,280
That's just, that's just where
I'm at.

972
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:01,160
But, but the thing that I'm
very, very clear about is I was

973
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,040
born to do this and I will do
it.

974
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,560
I've, I've been court ordered to
some things that I absolutely

975
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,800
refuse to do.
And so it's just the more I do

976
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,160
it and the more things open up
and the pathway is so clear.

977
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,640
I know I'm doing what I came
here to do.

978
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,840
And I just tell people, I tell
all the time people.

979
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,760
I, I just, you know, if that's
not good enough for God, then

980
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,480
I'll, I guess I'll go to hell,
but I'm not going to be part of

981
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:30,440
an organized religion again.
But I do know This is why I was

982
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,560
born.
Sure, sure.

983
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:38,560
When you guys were working so
hard to get plural marriage

984
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:42,960
decriminalized in Utah.
I've talked to Christina Rosetti

985
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,240
a little bit about this on the
1st podcast I did with her.

986
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,320
What were some of your biggest
push backs you guys got from

987
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,640
that?
Because that's something that I

988
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,120
I was very interested in looking
at.

989
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,240
Well, it, I mean, first of all,
you know, the Mormon Church

990
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:08,560
spent, oh, it's been, oh, about
100 years now, very carefully

991
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,480
separating themselves from that
saying that's not us, we are not

992
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:16,080
that we are no longer right.
And so and so to have

993
00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:19,520
fundamentalists in the state of
Utah has been just a thorn in

994
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,560
the side of the church because
that keeps bringing up that

995
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,320
history that they just really
want to disown and not and not

996
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:29,800
embrace.
And so and so for me and on all

997
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:31,880
these years working with the
legislature and some of the

998
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:36,360
really frankly counterproductive
thing bills that they passed, I

999
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,520
knew, I knew it was a long shot,
but but there had been several

1000
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:43,360
people who had been working on
it for for five years or more

1001
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:47,480
just like saying, hey, this is,
this is really not logical.

1002
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:49,080
This is really having bad
outcomes.

1003
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,320
This is really causing a lot of
harm.

1004
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,000
And so and so it's finally
started to get some traction.

1005
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,800
But in Utah, this is just kind
of a well kept secret.

1006
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,080
If if the church doesn't like
something, they can kind of kill

1007
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,560
it.
A bill in the legislature, they

1008
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,120
can just kind of tell their
members that's not good, don't

1009
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:05,560
vote for that.
And, and it will die.

1010
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,920
And, and maybe that's having
less and less of an impact now,

1011
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:10,560
but for years that's how it's
been.

1012
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:16,600
But, but I think, you know,
when, when it finally started to

1013
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:21,080
become a very serious topic of
conversation, it was, it was now

1014
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,280
she's Lieutenant Governor
Henderson now, at the time she

1015
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,120
was in the Senate, she started
taking this on and being very

1016
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,280
serious about it.
Now she's a member of the LDS

1017
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:30,800
Church.
And so you have to know that

1018
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:35,080
takes a lot of courage.
But what she did was take find

1019
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:39,280
all of the data.
She found facts data, just like

1020
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,080
all of the things and build them
up and created a case that was

1021
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,680
really, really incredible.
She also had a lot of gravitas

1022
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,120
in and, you know, all of her
colleagues really respected her,

1023
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:50,760
so they were willing to listen
to her.

1024
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:55,400
The biggest push back I got was,
you know, people were just like

1025
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,200
polygamy's bad and wrong and
that's all they can think about.

1026
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,000
And so that's, that's it.
And so that was, that was a big

1027
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,520
push back.
There really wasn't any rational

1028
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,400
push back against it.
I think Lieutenant Governor

1029
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,960
Henderson really took care of
her colleagues as far as their

1030
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:12,440
concerns and the things that
they brought up.

1031
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,240
The the other push back that I
got and that I dealt with the

1032
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:22,120
most was really like the anti
polygamy evangelicals out there.

1033
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:27,080
That or you know, it's evil
because the religion is evil and

1034
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:31,000
and kept, you know, a false
equivocation of polygamy is

1035
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,880
abuse.
If you have somebody who's

1036
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,480
living polygamy and they abuse,
it's because of the polygamy and

1037
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,760
not because it's an abuser.
And, and so those are the

1038
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:43,640
conversations that, you know,
you can, you can give facts, you

1039
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:45,520
can, you can help disabuse all
that.

1040
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,520
But anybody who's in this
evangelical mindset, they're not

1041
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,200
willing to have their minds
changed.

1042
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,200
But it didn't.
It turned out that it didn't

1043
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,680
matter because the bill passed.
What?

1044
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:03,080
What do you think it was?
Do you think it was was Deidre

1045
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,480
Henderson's?
And shout out to her, by the

1046
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:09,440
way, 'cause I know she was very
instrumental in that, that whole

1047
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,880
thing.
And as you said it, that that

1048
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:16,320
took an extreme amount of
courage to buck the trend, so to

1049
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,120
speak, especially, you know,
your, your church home, the, the

1050
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,960
whole ball of wax.
But was there, was there

1051
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,560
anything else that you feel like
was really instrumental in

1052
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:31,040
getting this finished up 'cause
like it like it was, it was, it

1053
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,600
was.
So it changed the entire

1054
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,520
landscape of what it meant to be
a polygamist in Utah.

1055
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:41,120
I remember when that passed and
I'm like, I'll be damned, look

1056
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,800
at that.
I was, I was really kind of

1057
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:46,520
taken aback.
I thought, there's no way this

1058
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,040
is getting done.
And I watched very closely.

1059
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,880
I didn't have the podcast in
those days, but I was watching

1060
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,520
really closely.
What else?

1061
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:58,840
Along with Deidre, and because I
don't want to understate what

1062
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:03,240
she did, what else do you think
really helped push that forward?

1063
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:04,800
Because it's a sea change,
right?

1064
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:11,280
Right.
And, and there had to be before

1065
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:15,120
that, there had to be people who
were publicly polygamous, right?

1066
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:20,920
So Sister Wives, I think the
show really helped people kind

1067
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:25,040
of get more proximate with with
those weird polygamists, right?

1068
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:26,680
And so they were, they were in
their lives.

1069
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,760
They're realizing they're actual
just human beings that have

1070
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:33,080
needs and, you know, all the
same kinds of things that we do.

1071
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,400
And so, so that living publicly
really helped.

1072
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,960
I think the Darter's my Three
Wives book really helped.

1073
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:43,360
Anytime people are coming out
and saying, hey, we're humans,

1074
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:45,880
we're humans.
Let's have a conversation that

1075
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,600
makes a huge, huge difference.
I, I preach this all the time

1076
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:51,640
with, you know, both sides of
the political aisle.

1077
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:56,880
It's like, have a conversation
with people on the other side

1078
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,000
conversations.
Proximity changes everything.

1079
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:03,520
And so I, I really think that,
you know, those brave

1080
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,480
fundamentalists who are willing
to just come out and say, hey,

1081
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:10,160
we're just people and we refuse
to be in the shadow anymore.

1082
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,440
That had a huge change again,
which is why I'm coming back to

1083
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,520
this go report crimes because
that's going to make a huge

1084
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,720
difference.
So so that really, really

1085
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,160
helped.
And then Deidre Henderson was

1086
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,800
willing to go drove her all over
the state, go into people's

1087
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,560
homes and have those
conversations and find out

1088
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:31,440
people's experiences being, you
know, born in the back shed

1089
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,200
because they couldn't go to see
the doctor.

1090
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:34,840
You know, all, all of the
things.

1091
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,680
She heard everybody's stories
and it made a massive

1092
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:40,800
difference.
She started telling the stories

1093
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:45,040
and, and it changed lives.
It changed minds.

1094
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:49,160
And so, you know, I'm, I'm all
for this, the transparency, the

1095
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,520
being human.
It was a big deal.

1096
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:55,560
I, I also want to give a shout
out to Larry Snow, who was, he's

1097
01:01:55,560 --> 01:02:00,520
no longer in the Legislature,
but he he was in the House and,

1098
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,440
and was the representative who
was really in charge of all the

1099
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:08,040
criminal justice reform.
And I asked him, I asked him to

1100
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:11,000
Co sponsor the bill with with
the Senator Henderson.

1101
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,440
And he laughed.
He laughed out loud.

1102
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:16,840
He was like now, now what?
And then he stopped.

1103
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:20,560
He's like, oh, you're serious
Because he because he knew, you

1104
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:23,880
know, this is a big lift.
But I said, just please don't

1105
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,280
answer me right now, but think
about it.

1106
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:28,160
And he did.
He went away and thought about

1107
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:31,920
it and he prayed about it.
And he came back and said, I

1108
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,680
have prayed and I am satisfied
that this is the right thing to

1109
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:39,600
do and I'm going to do it.
And so again, it takes people

1110
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:43,360
with real courage, real
leadership to look at the real

1111
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:47,600
facts and go get asked all of
the years of stories and stigma

1112
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:49,360
and, and actually do the right
thing.

1113
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:52,440
And I, I see that happen.
I saw that happen with this.

1114
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:54,760
And some of the things the
Legislature has done has been

1115
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:56,560
really great in that way.
Nice.

1116
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:02,680
You talked about data that that
that that Henderson went out and

1117
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:05,360
just compiled that data.
Was there anything in that data

1118
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:09,640
that surprised you?
No.

1119
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:12,920
OK, Like I said, the
fundamentals know everything.

1120
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,160
There are no secrets from the
fundamentalists.

1121
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:17,600
OK, All right.
I didn't.

1122
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,640
What kind of data was it?
I was interested about that.

1123
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:23,480
What, what kind of data was it?
Was this religious data?

1124
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,200
What, what?
What are we looking at?

1125
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:30,400
So we're talking, we're talking
numbers, we're talking the like

1126
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,960
the high number of people who,
who didn't dare, like have

1127
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,440
access to graduating from high
school or didn't have access to

1128
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:40,200
college.
The vast number of people who

1129
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:45,440
have, you know, less, less
access to medical care and, and

1130
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:48,880
have to do, you know, like home
births and things like that

1131
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:50,840
because they weren't willing to
go to the doctor or the

1132
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:54,600
hospital.
We're talking about, oh, people

1133
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,560
who were born in hiding and who
ended up with last names that

1134
01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:59,160
were different from their
parents.

1135
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:02,840
Just all of those kinds of
stories and, and barriers.

1136
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:08,200
She talked to a lot of people in
in Short Creek, like the number

1137
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:11,640
of people, offspring of people
who were taken away from their

1138
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:14,800
parents in the 1953 raid and the
impact that had on their lives

1139
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,640
and the lack of opportunity that
that came out of that.

1140
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:22,280
So just, you know, real hard
facts that that the state hasn't

1141
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:24,320
really confronted up to this
point.

1142
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,200
Right.
You know, I think you hit on

1143
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:31,560
another important, an important
piece of this, which is just

1144
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,840
kind of showing our humanity,
right?

1145
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:40,600
And again, we got to be better
about telling our own stories or

1146
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:46,000
else someone else is going to
frame it for us and, and showing

1147
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,320
that humanity.
I got a good friend, probably my

1148
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,640
best friend outside of of, of
Amber and Tanya.

1149
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,520
And he's, he's not a Mormon at
all either, right?

1150
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:57,880
He, he wasn't brought up in it
or anything.

1151
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:04,320
And when, when I became a
fundamentalist and after, after

1152
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,920
Tanya joined the family, he, he
corned me once we were out to

1153
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,440
lunch.
He's like, OK, man, what's it

1154
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:12,400
like?
I'm like, what?

1155
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:15,720
He's like, I knew what he meant,
but I wanted him to say the

1156
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,360
words because I'm kind of an A
hole that way.

1157
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:23,560
I'm like what's what's what's
what's what's like He's like,

1158
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:27,840
you know, having two wives.
I'm like, oh, you want The Dirty

1159
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,160
secrets?
He's like, yeah, it's like, OK,

1160
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,600
I'm going to give them to you.
It's like being married, but

1161
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,400
twice, right?
And then just let it, left it

1162
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:40,560
alone and, and he just, he, he
was totally let down, right?

1163
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:43,280
And I'm like, look, dude, it's
really not that much different

1164
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:47,240
than you or your wife, right?
It's just another relationship

1165
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,400
that needs to be fostered,
nurtured and, and taken care of.

1166
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,640
But in that moment, I could see
the light bulb go off.

1167
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,280
And there was later a scenario
where he kind of came to my

1168
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,560
defense, right?
Because he was like, no, he's,

1169
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:02,640
he's just another guy, right?
He just lives a little bit

1170
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:04,880
differently.
And I think we've got to get to

1171
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,720
that point right where where we
show our humanity where we're

1172
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,640
willing to to just be like,
Nope, we're just people too.

1173
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:14,080
Some of us are really cool and
some of us stink on ice.

1174
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,520
It's a cross sector of humanity
and every.

1175
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:19,520
Time you have a cross sector of
humanity, you have really,

1176
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:21,320
really amazing people you have
some really, really crappy

1177
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,880
people it doesn't matter where
you slice this pie.

1178
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,680
And so until fundamentalists are
willing to get out there and be

1179
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:31,200
acknowledged as humans, then
they're always going to be going

1180
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,520
to be defined by the ones that
are in the news, which are the

1181
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:37,160
really, really bad ones, right.
So, you know, for me, it's just,

1182
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,920
it's the same way, I think.
I think because I was a woman

1183
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:44,480
and I escaped the FLDS that
everybody thought I was going to

1184
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:48,800
go and just had do this big
expose on, you know, on all the

1185
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:50,920
sex and the sex cult and
everything.

1186
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:57,400
And, and I think I let a lot of
people down by saying men have

1187
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:01,440
huge responsibility.
It's not all about sex.

1188
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:04,240
In fact, if anything, they
probably have less sex than you

1189
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,720
do because there's, there's a
religious responsibility with

1190
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,360
everything, everything you do,
There's, there's a

1191
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:14,480
responsibility to your God, to
your family, to, you know, your

1192
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:16,560
duties.
There's all of these things that

1193
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:21,440
factor in and, and not only
that, but 99% of us are born

1194
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,040
into it, right?
So, so it's not like all of

1195
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:27,120
these thousands of men woke up
one day and said, that looks

1196
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:29,040
like I get to have a lot of sex.
So they go become

1197
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,360
fundamentalists.
These are people who are raised

1198
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:35,600
up in this high, high
responsibility, high demand

1199
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,440
gospel.
And and so it's not, you know,

1200
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,320
everybody's like, well, did you
guys have like threesome and

1201
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:44,880
stuff on me?
I didn't even know what that was

1202
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,920
when I was in that.
Like it literally was not part

1203
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:51,280
of our world.
So, so I think that it's really

1204
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:52,840
important.
Again, you know, I love that

1205
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,080
you're doing this podcast and I
think it's really important.

1206
01:07:55,280 --> 01:08:00,280
The fundamentalist come out and
humanize the rest of us.

1207
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,520
I still say us, even though I'm
no longer a fundamentalist, but

1208
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:07,040
the the rest of us, right?
The rest of us need to be known

1209
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:11,080
in in society, not just the ones
that are out there committing

1210
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,800
the crimes.
Absolutely, Absolutely.

1211
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:21,319
SO11 last question, if, if do
you guys like take volunteers to

1212
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:24,040
be boots on the ground, those
sorts of things, would

1213
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:26,080
fundamentalists be welcome to do
that?

1214
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,160
What, what's the process for
doing that?

1215
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:33,040
What can we do to help this out?
Yes, absolutely, in fact.

1216
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:37,800
We, I mean, I guess I can name
them 'cause they're great.

1217
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:42,319
The the missionaries from the I
think it's called the work, the

1218
01:08:42,319 --> 01:08:45,960
work of God in that's located in
Centennial Park.

1219
01:08:46,359 --> 01:08:49,880
We we have missionaries from
them come all the time help us

1220
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,880
with with all kinds of things.
Yeah, we, we right now are

1221
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:59,680
building a legit a therapy
garden, a big therapy garden on

1222
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:02,279
our building in Colorado City.
We could use help with, we just

1223
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:06,279
acquired a new location in
Alpine, UT that we could use

1224
01:09:06,279 --> 01:09:08,200
help, you know, with all kinds
of things.

1225
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:11,479
So yeah, I mean, volunteers are
really helpful.

1226
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:14,520
We'd love to have volunteers who
want to do, you know, the social

1227
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:20,000
kinds of things to provide, you
know, peer peer, peer group kind

1228
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:22,560
of stuff.
And of course, donations.

1229
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,680
Donations are always lovely, OK,
But we're we're going to get to

1230
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:28,120
that.
Yeah, yeah.

1231
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:30,520
So how if someone needs?
Help.

1232
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:33,600
How do they find?
You guys so they can call our

1233
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,319
main number.
Which is on the website.

1234
01:09:37,319 --> 01:09:39,200
I could recite it but I'll
probably say it wrong.

1235
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:43,680
They could go to our website or,
and, and just contact us through

1236
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:47,600
the website and ask for help or,
or call any of our staff members

1237
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:51,279
if they have, you know, if they,
if they have family members that

1238
01:09:51,279 --> 01:09:54,120
have had help.
But yeah, we're, I think, I

1239
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:57,760
think we're pretty responsive to
people's needs.

1240
01:09:57,760 --> 01:09:59,440
One of the things we'd.
Really love to do.

1241
01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:01,800
Is go wherever people are
located.

1242
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,880
Like we've got people in Nevada
and Colorado, we like to go to

1243
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,560
that location and go find out
the other resources that are

1244
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:11,360
available to try to make them a
lot more culturally appropriate

1245
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:14,320
and open to people.
And then continue that that

1246
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:17,520
collaboration so that we're not
the only resource for somebody

1247
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:20,320
who's living, you know, outside
of outside of Utah.

1248
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:23,000
So sure.
And then for people who want to

1249
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:24,800
volunteer.
Their time, how do they do go

1250
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,040
about doing that?
I would go through the website

1251
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:28,080
as well.
OK?

1252
01:10:28,480 --> 01:10:31,280
And then donations I assume?
Through the website as well.

1253
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,520
Yeah, we can do that or.
Really.

1254
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:37,280
Anyway.
And because you're a 5O1C3,

1255
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,240
that's all.
Tax deductible too, right, That

1256
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:41,560
is yes, we give we have the tax
deductible the.

1257
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:43,600
Receipts for that?
Fantastic.

1258
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:46,280
Is there anything?
You want to cover that?

1259
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:51,160
That I didn't cover.
Well, I mean I you did.

1260
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:52,800
Cover this.
But I think it bears repeating

1261
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:57,320
just, you know, people you let
family members know who are

1262
01:10:57,320 --> 01:11:01,160
struggling that that we're here
and that we can offer help, you

1263
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:05,200
know, do do outreach to other
people, check on people, see how

1264
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:07,440
people are doing.
I think that, you know, with,

1265
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:10,400
with the pandemic and with our
digital lives, we've become so

1266
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:15,280
much further, a further flung
and, and we're not really taking

1267
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:19,200
care of each other that, that
attending need of, of community

1268
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,520
and things like that.
Just check on each other and if

1269
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,200
somebody's struggling, send them
our way.

1270
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:25,760
We, we don't want anybody to
fall through the cracks.

1271
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:28,080
Fantastic.
Awesome.

1272
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:31,000
Well, surely I think you guys
are doing a great work.

1273
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:34,960
Thank you.
I hope that that everyone.

1274
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,520
That listens.
Go get involved in this.

1275
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:44,560
I've had, I've been blessed to
meet a good portion of, of folks

1276
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:46,080
out there who are
fundamentalists.

1277
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:52,440
And by and large, I, I, you
know, 99% of them aren't into

1278
01:11:52,440 --> 01:11:55,840
child brides.
They're not into the nastiness

1279
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:58,800
that, that we've seen portrayed.
And I'm not trying to defraud

1280
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:00,480
the government, not trying to
defraud.

1281
01:12:00,480 --> 01:12:03,200
The government I I know.
Who you are, I've had the

1282
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:06,440
privilege and the opportunity to
meet and yeah, let's get

1283
01:12:06,440 --> 01:12:10,440
involved with this because it
look at the end of the day, we

1284
01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:14,720
have to be just we we need to
start letting our light shine on

1285
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,360
that hill.
We can't hide that that candle

1286
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:21,560
under a bushel any longer.
And if you're looking for

1287
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:23,880
meaningful ways to serve, this
is our own.

1288
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:27,800
These are our own people.
And it's time that we we kind of

1289
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,360
step up and and we help them out
where we can.

1290
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:34,840
But surely this was awesome.
I tell everyone this and I mean

1291
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:37,000
it 100%.
You've been on here once you got

1292
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,680
standing invitation to come back
on anytime you want.

1293
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:42,840
You just need to hit me up and
I'll I'll make the time to get

1294
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:46,040
it done.
So thanks again for coming on.

1295
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,720
I really, really appreciate it.
Been my pleasure.

1296
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:50,280
All right, hang out for just
five.

1297
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:51,680
Minutes.
Bye everybody.

1298
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:24,880
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.