Episode #104 Oh How The Tables Have Turned! W/Guest Host Greg Knight

0:04 So the second or third episode I ever did on the podcast was about me. After a few months, I grew to dislike that episode more and more, so I took it down. I also never wanted this podcast to be about me. I wanted it to be about Mormon history and Mormon doctrine. Well, Fast forward a year and a half, and I've had several requests for that episode. Interestingly enough, about that same time I was approached by Greg Knight about him interviewing me for his magazine The Fundamentalist. So I thought, well, let's kill two birds with one stone here and combine the two. So today I'm publishing that interview. So if you ever wanted to know how it is I got behind this mic, Here you go.

0:45 And that's next on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast. Look, it's no secret that our society has become much more crude and coarse. To become and raise men and women of virtue and character is a Herculean task. To help with this, I've recently wrote and published a book. Now, back in the 1700s, Washington had a book called Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior and Company and Conversation. It was a book with 110 rules that talked about how to conduct yourself like a civilized person in society, something that today's society is sorely lacking. What I did is I went back through the book and I reinterpreted his original sayings for the 21st century. So the book is laid out in a way in which you see Washington's original rule.

1:31 Right below that is my explanation for the 21st century, and below that you'll find two or three examples of where to use this in the real world. Now, to go along with this, there's a workbook that helps parents teach these principles and practices to their kids. To find the book, go to mormonrenegade.com. Go to the bottom of the page, search out the blog post, and order your copy today. I can bear personal testimony from personal experience that this is an invaluable tool to help you raise men and women of virtue and character. OK, just a couple of quick announcements here. If you're looking for a place to attend sacrament meeting and don't know where to go, I want you to reach out to me. Me and others stand ready to help you find a spiritual home, whether that's a new church, a gathering spot of independence, OR even if you just need a soft place to land for a time to learn how to have sacrament meeting in your own home.

2:20 Myself and others stand ready to help you find that place. All you got to do is just drop me a line at mormonrenegade@gmail.com and we'll quickly reach out to you to help you find the place you want and need to be next. I have felt for a while now that the sisters haven't had a good place to go to have their questions answered without a bunch of dudes creeping around to fill this need. My wife Tanya has set up a Facebook group just for women to talk about questions about fundamentalism. The name of that group is Mormon Fundamentalism for Women. Now, just a warning, if you're a dude thinking about trying to jump on this site, I'm going to give this to you in my best Liam Neeson impression. I have a certain set of skills and I'll find you and I will publicly mock you endlessly without mercy for many, many weeks.

3:07 So whether you're a fundamentalist woman seeking sisterhood or a woman investigating fundamentalism, this place is for you. Again, the name of that Facebook group is Mormon Fundamentalism for Women.

3:48 You're listening to the More Than Renegade podcast. Well, this is novel. Not sure I like it a whole bunch, but it's novel. So we're going to do something a little bit different. So I I've been getting some requests of people that want to have an episode that talks about me a little bit. And I'm not super excited about it, to be honest with you, because I've went out of my way to make the podcast not about me. But I get the the desire to want to know who it is is talking on the other end of the mic. So I get it for this, I brought on Greg Knight, now Greg helps me out, will be starting to help me out on the news program. We we're we're changing some things up there and we're going to tighten some things down and and try to give you your money's worth.

4:50 But since Greg has like journalistic chops having worked for the media and stuff before, I thought he was probably the perfect one to do this. So at this point, I'm just going to turn it over to Greg. Great. How you doing? Great. David, how are you doing? How was your day? Excellent, excellent. Same here. And you know, I really want to thank you too, because this is really a collaborative effort that we're doing because you know, of course, me along with Chad, we have the fundamentalist online. And you know, the vast majority of what we talk about today at some point in the near future is going to be put out there for folks to read online as well.

5:32 If they, you know, maybe don't have the bandwidth to listen to the podcast, well, they can sure as heck read it. So it's going to be a fun time. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So David, I guess the first question, and you know it's, it's one that's on everyone's mind who I believe ever encounters Mormonism. And that is, what was your first exposure to Mormonism and maybe you could talk about how it changed your life? Yeah, so you got to go back to kind of pivotal moment. When I was a kid growing up, my dad was my best friend. I mean, you know, a lot of kids say, you know, the old man was kind of an ass.

6:15 I didn't have that experience. My dad was great. My only complaint is I didn't have him around long enough or what I perceived should have been long enough. And he passed when I was 13, back in 1991, I believe. And I remember so. So my dad was kind of, oh, he was he he believed in God. But he wasn't really religious, right. He just kind of felt like he he didn't have a whole lot of, he didn't have a lot of time for hypocrisy. And So what he saw in a lot of organized religion was just that, a lot of hypocrisy and he just didn't have time for it. So we just we we were, we were always raised with the idea that yes, God is real, but we didn't attend Sunday school or anything like that, didn't have a church, we called our own, that sort of thing.

7:17 So the night he passed, we had good friends that lived next to us named Donna and Charles, and they were a sweet couple. I didn't grow up knowing either of my grandparents. I did know my my mom's adoptive father for a for a while, but not very long. So really at that point Donna and Charles were the closest thing we you know I imagined grandparents would be And Donna went to the hospital with my mom when when there was something going on we were at school and we came home and you know there's just a note on the table that said hey, go go next door to to Charles house he'll feed you dinner had pizza. I remember we we just kind of were were watching basketball. If I remember correctly it was back when Jordan was really tearing it up in 91 for the Bulls and we were watching a Bulls game and went to sleep.

8:23 And then about 3:30 in the morning we get woke up and it's my mom and Donna and Charles and two guys I'd never seen before and my siblings and I just remember my mom said your dad's been sick for a long time. He he struggled with heart disease quite a bit and she said he doesn't have to suffer anymore. And I knew what that meant. But she hadn't said it yet. And then she just kind of said he passed away. And I didn't cry like right then, right that that was something I I remember thinking in the moment that felt weird and I just was like, but but I started to feel almost this panicky feeling, right.

9:07 I don't know how to to describe it. And I remember I was like, I'm, I'm going home. I'm going home to my room, to my own space. And I was about just walking up the steps. And I remember it just hit me like, like a tsunami. I was never going to see my dad again. And I I let out kind of this yell that even shocked me a little bit and this pastor that. So the two guys I didn't recognize, they were pastors of Donna and Charles's church. And I I don't want to disparage them. I don't think that they were trying to be rough or anything like that. I just think it's what they believed looking back on it. But I I remember I just kind of dropped my stuff and I sat on the porch and wept and this pastor just sat down next to me. And at 13, he must have thought I was a little foul mouthed puke, 'cause I remember I looked at him, I'm like, who the hell are you?

10:07 And he he just said, well, well I'm a I'm I'm a pastor of the church that Donna and Charles goes to. I'm like, OK, so you can answer some questions. What happens to my dad now? Where's my dad? And he just said, you know if if he didn't turn his life over to Jesus Christ right before he died, we're really not sure what happens. Later I discovered that that meant he's he's essentially lost, right. He he's going to hell. And that didn't sit right with me, Greg. Not one bit. And so I I was a weird kid. I I really was.

10:47 I about high school. I started like I was a kind of kid that would go get high in my car, blow away a fatty in my car at lunchtime while listening to Rush Limbaugh. And that, you know, and then I might read the Quran or study the Torah a little bit, or the baga devita, right? And just trying to get those answers and nothing ever fit. Now, I was a bit of a partier in school as well, and I remember I had a good friend named Lee who was a Mormon, and he found out he was doing like this church tour, right, 'cause I would go from church to church. I found a a quasi mosque in Boise that I went to once. I I visited A synagogue.

11:40 I I looked at at Hinduism. I looked at Buddhism. There was a there was a Buddhist temple just in the neighboring town over in Oregon. And so I, I I went to them all. And I remember once Lee says, well, you're gonna look at my religion, right? And I'm like, no, I don't see how stop. You know how if I quit drinking coffee, that's gonna help anything? And it wasn't until, you know, I was. I was 18 and I met my wife and she wasn't real active in the LDS church, but she was raised Mormon. And I remember there was one day we were taking a drive after we were picking out colors, I think like fabrics or something for the wedding. I didn't care.

12:29 My wife was just hot and I was like, whatever, whatever you want, it's fine. And I remember on on that ride she said, hey, I got a question for you. I'm like, sure. She's like, I think I'd like to raise our kids in the LDS church. And I'm like, that's great. I don't have a problem with that. Mormons are cool. Some of my best designated drivers were Mormons. And she's like, OK, don't you think you should know what they're being taught? And I'm like, absolutely not, 'cause by this time I kind of wash my hands. I believed there was a God, but I believed he was more like the God that the deists taught, right? That he was a clock maker, that he just kind of created the world. He wounded up, and then he just kind of becomes uninvolved, if that makes sense.

13:18 Maybe with a a few exceptions, but for the most part uninvolved. And I I was like, I I I have no desire, no desire at all. And I remember she just kind of said, well, it would go a long ways in making my mom feel better. I was like, oh, crap. I was like, I'll tell you what, I'll, I'll, I'll take those discussions. Right. This is 95. So there's no preach my gospel. This is, this is pamphlets, right? This is reading material, very structured. And I said fine, fine. But here's the caveat. If you if anyone asked me if I want to be baptized, anybody, I'm out. I'm out.

14:05 You will not see me. We will be done. I'm happy to sit there and have a discussion with them, but I am not joining it because Mormons are weird. I mean, you're hot, honey, but Mormons are weird. And she said, fair enough. So this arrangement gets made that that they can come over and teach, but I'm not going to be asked to be baptized. I talked to my mom about it and she's like, well, you can take those discussions, but you're not taking them here. She was pretty opposed to it. I was like, OK, I was like, that's fine. I'll just take them at Amber's mom's place.

14:45 And so she lived about 20 miles away from me. So I drive out there and take the discussions and and the first discussion rolls around and I'll, I'll always remember their names. Greg, it was Elder Peruka, he was from West TX somewhere. And then Elder Anonich who was from Russia and Elder Anonich didn't speak a word of English. I think he had Amen down by that point. And so we go through the first discussion in those days, they they, you know, would kind of start telling you a little bit about the Book of Mormon and about Jesus Christ. And then there was, they encouraged you to read in this pamphlet the Moronized promise, right?

15:32 You know, if you pray about these things, you'll experience a burning of the bosom and you'll know that they're true. And I was completely uninterested. I'm like, sure. Great. Sounds awesome. And so that first discussion ended. I had to stay the night there because by the time we finished up it was over. Now the next morning, Amber had just graduated high school or been accepted to a college. I can't remember which. But anyway, she was, she was, her and her mom were going to go to McCall, which still resort town, kind of up up about middle of the state in Idaho. And they were going to go up there for a long weekend and just have some fun.

16:13 And I was like, well, this is cool because I'm going to do what I always do. I'm going to go home, I'm going to grab my tent and my pole and I'm going to go head out to go fishing, spend the weekend out there. Now I had this little spot that I that I had that I went to all the time, but it was a hike back there, right? It was about 5 miles, but it was so secluded and it was marked by this one tree that had kind of been burnt in a fire and it had no limbs on it. It was just the trunk and it was kind of leaning over a little bit, but about 50 yards past that there was a little Eddy that ran off the Snake River. And because it was an Eddy, the the water moved a lot slower, so it was a lot clearer, right? And I'd always been able to go out when I found it. It was just perfect, 'cause I could go out there, I could toss my line in, you could see the catfish and the the the the trout down there.

17:07 And I never had a problem. I always caught what I ate. So the the discussion wraps up. I drive back home, Amber and Mom's going to be gone for the weekend. You know this is before cell phones too, right? This is like 95. The the cell phones were around. It's just not everybody had them right? It was it was a real status symbol at that point. And so I get home, I unload my bag. I put all my my gear in the bag, you know, a change of clothes, a sweatshirt, change of socks. And I start heading out there and I don't get I, I I took a nap and I didn't get a a great start. I I ended up heading out, oh, I want to say probably 3:00 in the afternoon to the point that by the time I made it out to that little spot that I had, it was it was getting dark. So I get out there I look down, sure enough, there there's there's there's fish in that Eddy. I had some lemons and some pepper, some butter and I always just caught what I ate, filleted it wrapped it in tin foil put some seasonings on it and just cooked it right. I get the fire started.

18:21 I I I tossed the line in and nothing nothing happens. Now it it was unusual cause usually it took me 15 minutes tops and I was reeling something in Greg and all of a sudden nothing's happening, right? And now it's dark and I'm like, well, I'm not hiking back out tonight, I guess. I guess I'm just going to sit here till I catch something or you know, go hungry. It's kind of what I was thinking. And finally about 11:00 that nothing was hitting the pole. I mean, I've been there 3-4 hours and nothing's happening. Although I can see, you know, I I saw a fish down there. I know they're there.

19:07 So I'm sitting by the fire. I'm like, well, crap, what the hell am I going to do now? And I remember I just kind of glanced and I noticed that, you know, that missionary version of the Book of Mormon, you know, blue with the gold letters. I've got it sitting right in front of me. OK, it was sitting at the bottom of my bag. I had failed to take it out when I threw everything else on top of it. So I thought, well, there's no one around not doing anything else. I might as well just maybe read this a little bit and see what I see, what I think. And so I went ahead and I I started reading it right. And I read Moroni's Promise and I read a couple other things. But to be honest with you, Greg, it didn't hit me real hard. I was like, this sounds like the Bible, right? I mean, I'm not saying it's, you know, a bad book. I'm just saying I don't think it's true. So I put, I put the Bible, I put the Book of Mormon down and I waited probably another 1520 minutes and I'm like, Paul's still not doing nothing.

20:10 I'm like, well, I suppose I could read this book and then I could challenge the missionaries on it if I find something that sticks out. So I start reading just various passages, right? I just really flip through. It is what I do. And I finally get to the story of a Benedi, right? And and flipping around and it's the one where he's testifying before King Noah and they can't touch him. And Greg, that hits me. Something about that story hit me and I put the book down and I kind of look around again and I decided I'm going to read one more time and I I read my own eyes.

20:50 Promise. And I look back around and no one's there. I'm like, well, no one can see me doing this. So I guess I'm all right, 'cause I was a major partier. I was like, well, I haven't really said many prayers in my life, but I guess I could give this a go. And I prayed to know if the Book of Mormon was true and if it and this will, this will factor in heavier later in my story. I ask if the Book of Mormon is true and if the gospel is true. And I pray and all of the sudden there's there's no miraculous vision.

21:35 There's nothing like that, right? But it's an overwhelming feeling that I know it's true. And I sit there for 10 minutes. Somewhat dumbfounded, right? And I sit back down on the log that I was looking at the fire and I was like, well, this sucks, 'cause I don't want to be a Mormon. There's a thousand other things that that sound more interesting to me than being a Mormon. But I was like, oh, I still have God on the hook here because I ain't told those elders and everybody involved, they weren't to ask me if I was to be baptized. So I thought I had God. I was. And. And I even said, look, if you want me to be baptized, you're gonna have to, you know, really tell one of them to ask me. And I don't think they're gonna do that because I I I was less than happy to be there.

22:25 And I'd made it clear that I wasn't getting baptized. They knew that going in. And then I reiterated it, that first discussion. And so the pole started dancing. I was able to catch, catch fish. I ate. I went to sleep, stayed there the next day. Hiked out that night, Tuesday was was my next appointment with the missionaries. So Tuesday rolls around and and I got to say Greg, I was feeling pretty confident. I felt like I, I, I I had a loophole and I was going to work that loophole right, because the mission no one was supposed to ask me if I if I'd be baptized. And the discussion starts.

23:08 And to be honest with you, I don't remember much from that discussion. What I do remember is that Elder Ananich, who didn't speak a word of English, just kept staring me down. And at one point I remember thinking This is why the KGB was so effective, because that dude is Mad Dog and me the whole way through and we're about halfway through now, maybe 3/4 and the weirdest thing happened. Elder Ananich, as he's leaning back, all of a sudden he just leans forward and he puts his hand on Elder Peruca's knee. The the one from West, TX and and great English just says, will you be baptized? And the room gets real uncomfortable, right, 'cause they're expecting me to kind of lose my crap and start, you know, I, you know, yelling, I told you that I wasn't going to do this, blah blah blah.

24:05 And I just kind of had to let my head hit my, you know, let my chin hit my chest. And I was like, well, I guess so. And that was that was it. That's how I became a Mormon. We finished up those discussions that week, had a baptismal interview in the LDS Church, and I became a Mormon. Wow, that is. That is an amazing, amazing story. I'm so glad you told it. And that now brings me to the next question that I really have been thinking about all week as we began this discussion of having this show. You spent a lot of years in the the mainstream church.

24:45 I did. Can you remember the first time that you were exposed to or became aware of fundamentalist doctrine, and can you talk about that? Yeah, So the first time I'm exposed to it, I go home and I tell my mom because at some point she's going to find out, right? I mean, I'm 18. I can do what I want, but I'm also living in her house. I'm like, OK, here's the deal. I'm going to become a Mormon. And she's like, look, you're 18, you can do whatever you want, but if you're going to be a Mormon, you're not going to live here. And I was like, well, crap. And to kind of persuade me not to, she went and talked to that that same pastor who just happened to be a specialist in trying to to debunk Mormonism. So he goes to the Journal of Discourses and he starts pulling stuff out about Adam, God, blood atonement, curse of Cain, plural marriage.

25:47 I mean, anything you could think of that was controversial about Mormonism, he found it. I was. Like he had a journal of discourses on hand. He did, yeah. Or at least he had. He had files or something, but they were printed. They were just printed pages, right? That wasn't like the actual journal discourses. It was just printed pages. And so I was reading through it and like kind of dug the Adam God stuff, right? The the the curse of Cain was a little troublesome to me. Plural marriage I found fascinating. Blood atonement kind of made sense to me to be honest with you. I was like, OK, it's, you know, it's it kind of the way Brigham talked about it sounded like just capital punishment and a Theo democracy, right.

26:36 But I had questions about the Adam God stuff. I had questions about the plural marriage stuff. And so I show it to my elders like 2 days later and they're like, I have never seen this before. Let's let's get the Bishop over here. And the Bishop comes over and he looks at it and he's like, yeah, I kind of heard about some of this. The plural marriage stuff I'm pretty familiar with. But the whole Adam God thing, not so much blood atonement, Haven't really heard of that. You know what, Let's, let's get you, let's let me call the stake president real quick. And so he calls the stake president. And the stake president directs me to go talk to our stake patriarch who lived in the town. I was taking the discussions and he spent, he was so great. I remember I went over to his place. I knocked on the door and his wife answered and she was a sweet old lady.

27:33 And she's like, oh, he's on the tractor. She's he goes, she says, he said you'd be coming over. Just drive down that dirt road right there and you'll see him and he'll probably have you come up and get in the tractor with him. I'm like, OK, cool. So we have deep conversations. And then he takes me into his house. And I mean, he's got every old school book of Mormonism you can imagine. And so he, he takes some things off and he explains some things to me, like, look, I think this might be true, but we really don't talk about this in church. If you need to have these discussions, you come see me because you'll get in trouble. I'm like, oh, so there's like, secret knowledge. He's like, oh, yeah, there's secret knowledge.

28:13 And so I I have that conversations with him. My questions are sufficiently answered and I'm baptized. And then I work the program, so to speak for a good, let's see, 95, probably 13, well probably 12 years, right? Amber and I, we end up getting married, we have kids. We moved to Maryland, we moved back to Idaho. And while I'm in Idaho the the second time, it's because I get spooked. So this is about 2006, 2007 I guess and I was part owner of a business at that time and we me and a couple other guys had got together and just decided we were going to make kind of a a one stop land development company, right. So it was me who was doing the survey stuff. And then we had an architect and a structural engineer and a civil engineer.

29:16 And this, this is going somewhere, I promise. But I got to set the stage here and then a landscape architect, and we were just killing it, Greg. I mean, like we added eight crews in the space of one calendar year. And I was like, you know, I'm not an economist, but this doesn't seem healthy. So I call up a buddy who worked for at the time what was called Academy Mortgage. It's a huge lender out in the West for mortgages. And he was down in Salt Lake. And I said, man, let me take you to lunch. Let me run down there take a lunch. I want to pick your brain on this economy. He's like, sure. And so we have lunch and I'll.

29:58 I'll never forget it. We were sitting the old Crossroads Mall. You you remember that? Oh yeah, absolutely. We were sitting in the old Crossroads Mall and they had this. They still have it there in the in the new mall, but it's called Great steak, right, which is just cheese steaks. And I'm like, that sounds good. We'll swing in there. So we sit down, we're talking. And it's an off hour, right? We go to lunch at like 1:30. And I said, dude, what is going on with this economy? He's like, what do you mean? And I told him what I'd done and he got white, like, like, like a a a, a white sheet kind of white.

30:38 And he goes, well, this isn't normal. And I was like, well, what are you talking about? He explains to me toxic mortgages. He talks about how they're they're making these loans and then they're wrapping them up and then they're selling them to the government essentially. Right. And Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Now, I'm not a super smart guy, but I'm enough. I'm, I'm enough of a thinker to do math and go, yeah, this is unsustainable. So I went back to my partners and I just said, look, this bad boy's coming down. I suggest we we, you know, don't hire anybody else. We don't grow. And we buckle down for hard times. And they laughed at me. I'll never forget it.

31:20 They laughed at me when I called that meeting. And at that point I just said, you know what, cash me out. There's a guy behind me who's ready to take over. Just cash me out. And so they cashed me out. And they were, they were more than fair to me. But I went back to that same little town where I was baptized at, only we were way out in the sticks. We were probably 5 miles from town and I bought this house. It was like a three bedroom, 1 bathroom house. But I renovated the garage and turned it into living space and added a bathroom. Sure enough, about the end of 2007, it came down and it came down hard.

32:03 And so we were out there and I was just doing little surveys for farmers, right? Not a ton of money, but it was enough that we could get by because the house was pretty much free and clear. Now there was nobody around us except for one person that was literally 50 feet from me. And for argument's sakes, and I'm going to try to do this. I've screwed up a couple of times. But you know what? I'm just going to call her Brenda. To hell with it at this point. Everyone knows who I am. There's a woman next door named Brenda, and her and Amber became really good friends.

32:50 And Brenda was a divorcee, and she had a ton of stuff to do around her property, right? She had a couple acres. I think we had five if memory serves. But because I wasn't working every day right I would go do a job and couple 1000 bucks And so if I did, if I did five or six a month, I was making plenty of money cause again we didn't have a house payment. The cars were paid off. We were smart and and what would happen is is that Amber would would kind of loan me out if you will to go help Brenda right.

33:36 It would be like hey Brenda needs trees trimmed or or the lawn mowed or any number of things right patch a hole in the roof on the her shed whatever. And as soon as we moved back to that little area, I got put in in in an elders corn presidency. I wasn't a the president but I was in an elders corn presidency at that time. And I remember as I was working on her house once I just kind of remember thinking this feels natural. And then I scared myself. Greg, I was like Nope, Nope. I take my there's two things.

34:17 I take my covenant with God very, very seriously. And I loved my wife enough, still love her this much to to do everything in my power never to hurt her ever. So I made, I made excuses not to go over there, right. You know, it'd be one of those things like, oh gosh, I wish I could, but I got this thing over here I got to go do and it's going to take forever. Sorry. And I just made excuses not to go. And then Amber and Brenda were also team teachers together in Young women's. I think maybe it was primary, I can't remember. But they were team teachers and so it was nothing for me to come home from work and see them studying the scriptures together, right?

35:04 So she was always around, but it I just made excuses not to be over there as much. Things start getting crazy about two months after that. Now I had turned our five acres almost into a park, had a great big garden orchards, it was all under sprinkler. And I also built a really nice area for hosting. So we had a nice fire pit with, you know, it was, it had pavers on it. It was really well put together. And so Brenda's kids would come over and we were roast hot dogs and have s'mores and we would talk into the night and the girls were studying.

35:46 I think the Doctrine and Covenants were getting, getting, getting close to making that jump and they were joking around and like, oh, how are we going to tackle 132? And I I was like, I made the comments like, man, that would be so weird to have to live that. And Brenda said, you know what, I got some family who are independent fundamentalists and there's actually a real sweet, sweet spirit in their home. And I just kind of was like, look at the time, I got to go to bed. You girls continue talking. I'll see you later. Go to bed. Hopefully put put it out of my mind and not worry about it. Three weeks after that, Amber and I are getting ready for bed and Amber, out of the blue just says if plural marriage ever came back, would you take Brenda as a wife? And are you a Star Wars fan, Greg? Unfortunately, I'm not.

36:46 There's a scene from one of the movies where this guy goes, it's a trap. And that's exactly how I felt, right? I was being trapped. Understand that feeling. I can understand the feeling. Yeah, I was like, you know what? We don't have to worry about that. I'm not concerned with that. Nothing wrong with Brenda, but no, you know, we don't, we don't need to talk about it. And I just kind of went to bed about a month after that. I think I came home from doing a survey and it was it was a rough day. I I remember that I was all scratched up. I had to cut through Russian olives. It was a rough, rough survey. And I get home and have you ever gotten home? And you're like, I don't want to talk. I don't want to think.

37:34 All I want to do is sit down in this chair and, you know, take a shower, eat and sit in this chair and not move. Oh, absolutely. In my current job I I work at a homeless shelter currently, so. So I definitely have days like that where I come home and I just want to decompress from the day. I go read some scriptures, I make myself some dinner, but I don't want to think about the pressures of the day. Is that what you're talking about? Exactly. Exactly. Well, I didn't get that far. I came in and Brenda and Amber were sitting at the at the table reading scriptures and again, it wasn't unusual, right? They were team teachers and Amber just says, David, come here. I got something I wanted to show you and I'm like, sure. And so she's in the Doctrine and Covenants and she's like, what's this one say?

38:23 And I'm like Verily, thus sayeth the Lord. She's like, OK, stop, stop. She flips over to another one. She's like, what's this one say? And I'm like Verily, Verily, thus sayeth the Lord. And I start reading some more and she's like, that's enough, stop. And we do this exercise probably two or three more times, Greg. And then finally she takes us to the the manifesto and she said, what's this say? And I'm like to whom it may concern And at this point like I remember my gut got physically tight, right? I felt ill and she said, does that sound like a revelation to you? And I had to admit it did not, right.

39:06 It did not have the same feeling of thus sayeth the Lord. And she just basically said, look, I love Brenda. You know, I see her struggle without a husband, and I want her to have the blessings that I have. And she goes, you're a good man, We should think about doing this. And I don't know what my face looked like, but I could tell you what I felt like, which was I wanted to throw up, right. Not because Brenda was ugly or anything like that. It was just, this is a big deal.

39:52 This is a huge deal. And so I'm like, OK, let's have a conversation here. I was like, we have some challenges in front of us, right? It's not like I can walk into the Bishop tomorrow and go, hey man, guess what? I got great news, right? This is not going to fly. And so I'm like, let's all go home. Let's, you know, let's pray about this, and let's give it a week. And I was like, 'cause I don't have a confirmation of this one way or another. And so, I mean, I have never prayed as hard as I prayed that week.

40:32 I fasted like I had never fasted before. And I'm just asking, God, is this your will? Is this your will? Is this what you want me to do? And I'm reading 132, and I'm reading church history, trying to get a feel for what's happening. And one evening it just comes to me. I'll never forget it. It was probably 1:00 in the morning, and I went into our orchard and I just said a prayer. And again, no miraculous visions. I don't want to say that and nothing like that. But I got an answer which was yes, I have ordained you to be in this spot. And there is more I have yet to teach you.

41:16 And in that moment I stood up and I'm like, OK, so we meet back together in a week. I say OK, I I got. I got the answer have have you girls each got an answer. And I was like to make sure that nobody is fibbing to anyone else. Let's write it down. Fold up a piece of paper and then let's throw it in a hat. And we do that. I take it out and it's unanimous. Yes. Right. And I'm like, OK, now we have another problem. How are we going to get married, right? Because I don't want to just be feeling like I'm having an affair that my wife's OK with, right? It's it's very important to me to do this right. And again, I'm in.

42:06 I'm in Idaho, not exactly a hotbed of activity in western Idaho for fundamentalists. The the people Brenda had told me about her family, they had passed away. And so I'm just kind of floating out there, right? I don't know what to do. And so I start scouring the Internet for anything I can find. Anything. And it took forever because we were living in the country. And it was just past dial up at that point, right? You weren't getting the annoying sounds anymore, but it was still very slow. This back when you used to get the AOLCDS. Yeah. Well, it's probably past that a little bit, but not not by much, right.

42:49 You're talking 2007. Somewhere we're. Talking Netscape. Yeah, yeah, that's it. So I start, I start scouring the Internet for fundamentalist groups and I I I do research enough to go, yeah, I ain't calling anyone in Colorado City. That looks horrible. I hear about the AUB, but they're really hard to get a hold of. And so I end up finding a book by Ogden Kraut that talks about doing a solemn covenant until you can find proper priesthood authority. And basically what happens is that you have a ceremony with the three of you just before God and say you know commit to each other and then you it's it's kind of a placeholder until you can find proper priesthood authority, right.

43:42 So I start we we do that and we start living as man and wife and after that I just start tearing in to finding fundamentalists right. I talked to Kevin quite a bit. I I talked to some Lebarons. I talk. I I finally tracked down the number to one group and I'm, I'm not going to tell tell who it is. But looks like really promising, right. They're they're they're just in Salt Lake somewhere and it looks really, really promising And I reach out to them takes a while to get an answer. Have a few discussions over emails get some material to read Start learning about Adam, God and about, you know, really learning about Adam God in depth and a lot of other fundamentalist principles.

44:36 And I said look man, I'm, I'm sold. What do I need to do? And he said, well, probably next thing is to have you come up to Salt Lake and have an interview, and then we'll go from there. I'm like, sweet. He's like, but first tell me about your family situation. I said, well, it's me and my two, you know, me and my wife Amber and me and my wife Brenda and my kids. And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, You're already living plural marriage. And I'm like, yes, Sir. Yep. And he's like, well, you're out of order. You've already violated your covenants and we can't help you. And so at that point, I was like, well, I'm trying to get an order. Can you help me out? He's like, Nope, can't do it. And that was it. And so at that point, I just remember I looked at both the girls.

45:19 I'm like, I think we're on our own out here. But we do as good of a job as we could with what knowledge we had, right? I mean, for all intents and purposes, we're a fully functioning family. We have dinners at night together. I alternate nights between staying at Brenda's and staying at Amber's. We we become knit together as a family. And oh, I remember it was about 5-6 years after that, right? Brenda's family now. Brenda was a few years older than than we were, but she had family who were just upstanding members of the Mormon community where we lived. And from my understanding, her parents found out and kind of said, look, you got to make a decision. And I was like, look, I've, I've already moved from Maryland to Maryland and back.

46:19 I don't have a part problem pulling that trigger. We'll leave. We'll leave next week, right. But I could tell she was still hesitant. So I said tell you what let's pray about this and then let's let's talk tomorrow night. And she and and and I don't blame her. I don't hold any malice towards her. She had to do what she had to do. Right. She, she basically, you know said I can't imagine being ostracized from my family and the the marriage kind of broke up. Not kind of it.

46:59 It blew up. And so, yeah, yeah, that's kind of, that's kind of that. And then I'm, I'm ashamed to admit I hadn't drank in probably, gosh, 13, almost 14 years by that point. But as I prayed, just trying to find solace, because I had no one I could turn to, right, Greg, it was just me. And I didn't want to ever mourn in front of Amber too much because I didn't want to give her the feeling of you're not enough, right. I wanted to protect your heart still. So when I did most of my morning, I did it and I just did it on that, that that five acres out there.

47:43 Brenda ended up moving away really quick after that. But because I didn't feel like I was getting much solace from God, I I was now looking back, but I didn't feel it a whole bunch. Then I I kind of relapsed and I I was like, well, if I'm not getting the answers I want from God, let's see what Captain Morgan has to say about this. Let's counsel with the captain. And I remember, I remember one night I was just, I was drunk, I mean bad drunk. And Amber came out on the patio and I've been crying and it's about midnight and she's like, are you OK? I'm like, I'm fine. But I'm never doing this crap again. Only I didn't say crap.

48:25 I said I'm never doing this again. Ever. Ever. Never, ever. We, we never got found out by the LDS church. I'm like, we're just going to move, we're we'll probably move, we'll find a ward to settle into. And I'm going to forget everything. I knew everything. And I remember she just kind of put her, put her hands around my, my, my, my face down by my chin. She just raised my my head up so my gaze met her and I just remember she said, look, we've been called to this, we've learned so much and we can try going back to the LDS Church. But if if we get called, we're going to do this again because because we've been called is how she put it.

49:13 And so end up moving to North Dakota, live up there for a few years, and then we end up moving to Utah. And while in Utah in this very house that I'm at today, this was right before the pandemic and it was right after they made the temple change where they got rid of an A covenant that was made between the man and wife in the endowment. And I was pissed. I was pissed. I was not happy about that. But I thought, whatever, they know what they're doing. Let's just let this lie.

50:01 And so I one morning I just woke up and I was in leadership in this ward and I remember I was shaving. And now this was probably only two or three months before COVID. But I'm shaving in the mirror. It's around Thanksgiving and I'm looking in the mirror and I'm like, why am I so unhappy? I'm attending the temple once a week. I'm paying my tithing. I am fulfilling my calling. I'm associating with, quote the right people. I'm going to leadership council. What is wrong with me? Why am I I got a great job. I have a great wife. Why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? Which was it wasn't like everything's wrong. It just didn't feel complete or authentic. Does that make sense?

50:54 Totally, absolutely. And then I'm looking in the mirror and as I ask the question and it here's the weird thing, Greg, it wasn't even really a prayer, right? It was just like a question to myself. But I got an answer in that instant and it was you're not being true to who you are, son, I I showed you all these things and you've tried to just forget about them. You can't forget about them when you know you know and and you can't go back now it's like the. Proverbial unringing of the bell. You can't unring that bell, can you? It's it's like when when Adam and Eve take the fruit, there's no one doing it. You now have to contend with this.

51:36 And so I was like, OK, so I remember I I finished shave and I walked. I I go into the bedroom, have the have the master bath there, and I just look at Amber and I said I'm done. I'm done. She's like, done with what? I was like, I'm done going to church. And I explained to her what has happened and I remember she said, well, it's about damn time. It's about damn time 'cause I'm done too. And that Sunday I finish out my meetings and then I book an appointment with my sick president or my Bishop 1st, and I just say, look, you're going to have to release me. And he goes, oh, oh, brother, brother Sanders are why? Is something wrong?

52:21 I was like, yeah, something's wrong. And he's like, you just not have enough time. I'm like, no, I got time. He's like, oh, let me guess, you bumped into some old Mormon literature. I'm like, well, I've known about that for a long time. And actually I'm kind of cool with that. And he goes, I I know what it is. You're upset about the way the church treats the LGBTQ community. And I'm like, no, that is not it whatsoever. In fact, I think you're getting too close to that, to that. And he's like, then what could possibly be the problem? And I just say, look, you've crossed a bridge here. You you've crossed the Rubicon. You've you've altered the ceremony to the point that I think now you're entering the the territory of your mocking God. And and he goes, what, what, what? Let's, let's have you talk to the state president. I'm like, fine.

53:17 Now the guy that I talked to who was the state president, he was the he's, he, he's one of the very higher ups for Bonneville communications. And I remember I go in and I just tell him, look here's my issue. These things are changing. And I think we we are now in the mode of mocking God. And he says something that that he said, well, how so? And I explained to him about the temple change and he's like, oh, I can so answer this for you. You're you're gonna feel so much better after this. I'm like, OK, yeah, hit me with it. And he said, well, you see, for the first time ever in the church, there's more single people than married people.

54:03 And so that covenant's really hard to keep if if you're not married. And I remember I was like, that's not answering the question. I 'cause if if if people can't walk up to that covenant, the the answer is not to change the covenant that God revealed. The answer would be why aren't is to ask the question why aren't young people getting married? Exactly. And I and I said, look, if if people were having a hard time with the law of chastity, would you throw that out too? This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Deseret flag.com. I've said this before and I really mean it. Mormonism isn't just a religion, it's a culture. As such, it has its own vernacular and practices, but also its own symbols. And those symbols become even more important and prominent when you look back into our history. Perhaps one of the most recognizable symbols of Mormonism is the Deseret flag.

54:55 This is the flag that I use as cover art in this podcast. This was also used for a good chunk of time during the Pioneer era in Utah. Now today we have people who want to replace the existing Utah flag with some other progressive monstrosity. Well, I think it's damp past time that we start pushing back here a little bit in Utah. Our friends at Defending Utah are here to help you with that. Now. If you go to deseretflag.com, you can now purchase your own Deseret State flag. It's time here that we start making ourselves known and join the resistance against those who seek to rewrite our state's history. Go to deseretflag.com or check out the link in this episode's page, Show Notes and get yours today. Can't get enough of the Mormon Renegade Podcast? Well, good news, we're on Patreon and there's three packages that you can choose from. The first one, the Slightly Rowdy package, allows you to hear the podcast without all those pesky commercials getting in the way.

55:50 For those who want a slightly more in depth experience, there's the Stirring It Up package where you can hear ad free audio, AD free video and transcripts. Finally, for those who want to go full Renegade, that package is available too, where you can get everything in the previous two packages plus an extra show where myself and Ben Winfield breakdown the news of the day from a very Mormon point of view. You will also get exclusive access to Renegade chat and on there you'll be able to talk to others about the show or whatever topics are on your mind. Go to Patreon today and get your exclusive content. And he goes, well, no, that's that's different. I mean, that's completely different. I was like, how so?

56:30 And you didn't have a good answer. And at that point I was just like, yeah, we're done. We're done. I'm going to be cordial, but we're not hugging it out on Sundays anymore. And that was it. That's when that's that's kind of how I got to be a fundamentalist bully. Wow, that's a fantastic story. Now you have moved on since that point to fully embracing fundamentalism. Now within fundamentalism, you and I and every listener knows there's a lot of branches, a lot of sex, a lot of churches and many independents who believe in their own each brand of of fundamentalism with each, you know, branch or church having their own take on faith and practice.

57:15 For you, David, what does it mean to be a fundamentalist or to have originalist orthodoxy in Mormonism? What does that look like to you? So to me, when when we start talking about orthodoxy, I think that's going to look different to a lot of people. I mean, and and Independence, they they will be a little bit different, 'cause they're largely family units right now. They may come together and worship at somebody's house or whatever, but they're all gonna be a little bit different. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Personally, when when I think of Orthodoxy, there's there's two things, one is not throwing out things that were called essential, right?

58:06 Not throwing things out that the Brethren, those early brethren, Joseph Brigham, John Taylor really talked about that that were essential. I think of plural marriage. I think of Adam, God. I think of of those kind of things. I don't want to say that that that early leadership is infallible either, right? I just went through this exercise. I think a prophet can be wrong. I mean, scripture bears that out, right? Jonah ran from God. He had to be swallowed by a whale before he came, correct. Moses kills a man. Just go down the list. I don't, I don't think prophets are infallible, but some of their teachings are absolutely heaven sent and you have to abide by those. The other thing I would say is priesthood and ordinances. I do think that maybe the LDS church had screwed up to a point back in the 20s to, I want to say, the early 50s, where they stopped conferring priesthood and started just ordaining straight to an office.

59:14 They later corrected that, but they never went back and reordained every single person, right? So that makes me question priesthood authority a little bit within the mainstream church, because the the ordination wasn't taken care of correctly so. I found out very interesting when I decided to get re baptized. I found out I had to get baptized in the 1st place because my my baptism when I was a very young boy came after 1978, so there was no priesthood authority essentially for my baptism. Right, right. Yeah. You know, look and and this is where you and I will differ a little bit because I do have a bit of a nuanced view on the priesthood ban. Sure.

1:00:01 So I don't want to use 78 as the absolute end all be all of of they no longer had priesthood. I think there were probably still guys out there floating around who had it, but so so that was that was a concern. Valid priesthood ordination and valid authority and also valid ordinance work because the ordinances have been changed over time. So when we start talking about orthodoxy, I tend to start at the scriptures. I go to Joseph and then Brigham and John Taylor, and then down to Joseph F Smith, and then after that I figure everything's pretty much toasted anyway.

1:00:45 Right. Where do you go so kind of how I how I rape Orthodoxy and and that's kind of my weight of sources if you were if you if that makes. Sense. Absolutely. And and you know, I've told you before in our private discussions, you know, for for me, fundamentalism, I always say just kind of my shtick is like it's a broken pane of glass and it's someday going to have to be melted back down and put back together. I think my question that I wanted to ask you about this, do you see a time when we're going to have a people of Zion that can unite again under the truth and what does that look like? OK.

1:01:30 Didn't you say you had something to do at 7:00? I do. Let's let's let's break. Let's let let's pause this. Let's pause and then come back and then let me answer that. All right, cool. That's a, that's a great way to think about a tough question. I'll be back in five or six minutes. OK, David, I want to get a little more in depth now. And in in our previous conversations, I've always shared with you my view of fundamentalism. We've talked about it and I've. I've told you that I look at it like a broken pane of glass. And someday, someday, somehow, that glass is going to have to get melted back down and turn into a brand new, smooth, beautiful sheet of glass.

1:02:17 Now, if you take that parable and and advance it, do you see a time when that can happen, when we'll have possibly a people of Zion that can unite again under the truth? That I know, that you know, that we all know, even if it's a little bit shaded differently for each of us. So when when we start talking about something like a Zion, right. And and then you follow that up with truth, you're you're now going to start getting into some concrete definitions. And so when when you say truth, explain that to me, is that your truth? Is that the truth is let me phrase that.

1:03:00 Is that the truth as you understand it? Is that the truth as I understand it? Is that the truth as these various groups and independence understand it? I think, I think it's that all of the above and the truth, we're all going to look at it in our own individual way. Even if we're in a church, if we're in a group or we're independent. I know some churches that approach the teachings of their prophet or their president way differently, and I'm speaking about some groups in Utah, then say a different group up north, some folks down in southern to central Utah who have a group. I know for a fact that they have very many of the same beliefs as another church, but it's the way that their prophet approached teaching it. So they don't have a different reception, a different understanding of the same truths. And I I just wonder what it will take and what? Is there going to be a time when we may have little differences, we may have little misunderstandings? I don't, I don't wanna say misunderstanding, but different, different shades of the same beautiful truth. So here, here's what I would say is that yes, I believe that will happen and yes, that better start happening soon. Now, all of these groups I feel like bring something to the table, as well as the independence. And I think at some point we're

1:04:32 going to have to learn how to work together where we can, as far as 'cause you run into this problem of who's you know, as far as groups, who's their one man, and how is that going to get sorted out? When you start talking about that sort of thing about who the man is, you're asking people to do something that I think is not impossible, but it's definitely harder to do. And on some level, I think we're going to have to start looking beyond kind of the one man thing, right? We're going to have to start looking for the one man as being Jesus.

1:05:24 I think if we can all put aside our sacred cows to a certain extent and be willing to be like, gosh, you know what, I'd never thought about it that way. That guy might have a point, even though he doesn't subscribe to to my one man or to what I held as an independent. He's got a good point. So we have a ways to go I think as a people being willing to to consider all aspects and then coming to a place to where we can extract that all. Now we also all have this predefined notion that that we're all going to come in under 1 banner and one guy and we're all going to just get it done.

1:06:12 And and the more I look the more I think that may not be the case. I think what you could have is a number of sects and independent that work together on on common things. To be honest with you, I think the model might look a little bit like it does with some of the folks out in Missouri, right. You have a settlement that has some some folks from a a fundamentalist branch. You have some folks who are just flat independence, right? Everything from disaffected AUB to to some some lebarons. And somehow they managed to come together and build a community and a temple.

1:06:57 And I think that's probably the model that we're going to see when Zion comes about as as we begin to work together. And then I imagine the Lord will make his appearance at that point, and any errors in doctrine will be sorted out at that time. That's great. I was reading Doctrine Covens today just about that very topic. Fantastic. Now let's let's rip off that you and your family took a trip to the Midwest recently and it was the Illinois. And hurry, if I'm not mistaken, how was that trip for you and your family spiritually? Oh, it was awesome. So we we left Utah and we, my youngest daughter went to stay with her oldest sister in North Dakota, who's married and has a kid. So my daughter went up there to stay with her for an extended period.

1:07:48 And then from North Dakota, we we beelined it to Nauvoo. We we spent the day in Nauvoo and then we went to Carthage and then we went to to Far West. We went to Liberty Jail. We went to Adam and Diamond. We were all over the place and it was really cool and a a big testimony builder to both me and my family, my my my wives and and a couple of my sons about just how fantastic it was and how special of theology we have and it drove home the truthfulness of these things.

1:08:34 And there's one big take away I had. Let me see if I can find it here because I think it's really, really important and and this was one of of my big takeaways from that trip, let me see if I can find it here. If you've got something you want to add at this point that'd be great. So it gives me time to well. Actually, so you brought up the kids and you know I are they being raised in the covenant? And if so, I'm sure there's challenges in doing that given the way the world really the outside world, not not our our our beliefs and the way that we work with our families, but the outside world can bring really ungodly influences to bear. It's something like this where where you share it as a family building that family relationship up. Can you talk about that?

1:09:27 Look, my four older kids don't show much of A desire for it right now. My two younger ones tend to have a little bit more of a desire for it. But Mormonism is unique in the sense that you're going to have to have your own conversion experience, whether you've been raised with it or not. And so they're they're still working that stuff out now I'm hopeful. And Greg, to be honest with you, even if some of them don't, it doesn't mean I love them any less or or anything else. It just means that we don't see eye to eye on theology and that's OK. But yeah, it it it can be tough. But I mean I I'm not a big believer in just lock your kids up and shelter them from the world.

1:10:11 Right. The Savior said let your light so shine right. Be an example to others. If we lock our kids down and and don't let them learn how to navigate the world, I don't think we're doing a real good job for them. We're setting them up to have their their beliefs challenged in the worst possible way at the worst possible time without ever having kind of that stage of immunization. I guess right where you start to deal with these a little bit at a time, and then your kids are able to to learn over time how to repel that. So yes, the world can be tough, but they better learn to navigate it because I'm not going to always be there either, right? That's right.

1:10:56 Here is is what I I want to point out to you, and this actually references your previous questions about us all coming back together again a little bit. And this is from Joseph Smith while he's in Nauvoo. And he says the blessings of the Most High. And and I saw this on it's a plaque on a statue of Joseph and Hiram. And it said, the blessings of the Most High will rest upon our tabernacles, and our name will be handed down to future ages. Our children will rise up and call us blessed. And generations yet unborn will dwell with peculiar delight upon the scenes that we have passed through the provision, the the privations that we have endured, the untiring zeal that we have manifested, the insurmountable difficulties that we have overcome.

1:11:45 And laying the foundation, that's important. The laying of the foundation of a great work that brought about the the glory and blessings which they will realize. A work that God and angels have contemplated with delight for generations past, that fired the souls of the ancient patriarch patriarchs and prophets. A work that destined that is destined to bring about the destructions of the powers of darkness, the renovation of the earth and the glory of God and the salvation of the human family. Now let me tell you why that stuck out to me. It was that remark about laying the foundations right.

1:12:31 Joseph didn't say the house was finished. What he said is we laid the foundation. Now I think that because as I see it, the church has gone off, you know, it has maybe gone off the rails a little bit. In my opinion, that has caused us to build a house whose foundations, whose the the, the building footprint doesn't match the foundation. And anytime you build something that's not on the foundation, it is not structurally capable of bearing weight for very long. And I think that we all have to come together and really be honest, really do some honest searching and some honest prayer to find out what that foundation looks like and then build upon that.

1:13:31 Because I think maybe all of our found a maybe we all have a bit of that structure that is hanging off the foundation a little bit. So we got to bring it back to the foundation we have to build from the foundation up. So, so that was one major take away there. Is there something you wanted to add? No, I'm loving this story. Keep on going. The the other thing I saw that really shot me was that was one statue and it had Joseph holding an axe and Hiram was right beside him. The other statue of Joseph and Hiram is is in front of the Nauvoo Temple and they're they're facing the Mississippi, but they're turning back to look at the Nauvoo Temple and I'm going to butcher this and my phone died so I couldn't grab a picture.

1:14:28 I'm sure I could find it. I just haven't had time. But the the what what Joseph basically says is this is the best place in all the world and this is the best people in all the world. But they do not yet know what lies in front of them. And that got me thinking cause for a lot of years I just assumed that he was talking about the trek West, right? And then carving out an existence out of the desert. Now certainly that could be part of it. But what I find is, is that if it's just the trek West and just carving out an existence, it doesn't make sense. Because as you look at the at at the US government's own statistics, if you were traveling on the Mormon Trail going to Utah, you could expect that less than a percent of those who made that trip were going to die versus like the Oregon Trail, which had a 10% mortality rate. So by all accounts, the Mormon Trail was wildly successful, stupid, successful.

1:15:36 I think that speaks to the leadership of Brigham Young, his inspired role, and also just what Mormonism can do, especially when you have God on your side. Excuse me. So I was like, OK then what's he talking about if it's not that? And I think it's this day. I think this is what he's talking about, where where the gospel isn't maybe preached in its fullness in the the Mother Church. And we have to start putting that back together and we have to start correcting our structure to match the foundation. Well, Speaking of foundations, this podcast is, as I see it, one of the foundations being laid to do exactly that.

1:16:25 It's something also that my brother and I are going to try to do with the the print magazine, and there's a lot of other people out there doing the same thing in different ways. So let's talk about the podcast You said to me, you've told me directly it's a calling. Can you explain that? Yeah, so the podcast comes to me about a year after. I'm like full-fledged fundamentalist, right when I when I tell the Bishop and state president I'm out and I never sleep well in hotels, and I really don't sleep well in hotels when I'm away from my family. And I was, I had to go do a job in West TX of all places and it was for a power substation and so it was probably 3 days worth of work. And so I hid out there and on the second night I'm just tossing and turning.

1:17:25 I can't get to sleep and and I just kind of roll over and I stare at the ceiling and I think about how I got here right. I basically go over in my head the story I just told you about how I came to be a fundamentalist and my entire journey in in Mormonism and I just because because you know I tripped up a bunch trying to find people I could learn from. It was it was hard and I remember thinking man if there could just would have been somebody around that could have showed me the ropes. And in that moment just a just a thought popped into my head not my own.

1:18:13 Well, you could do something. I'm like, well, maybe, but I'm so busy, I don't, I don't have time. And it's like, how would I even do that? And the first thought was, well, you could do a blog. And I'm like, no, I suck at writing. I don't want to do that. I don't want to make a blog. That's too much typing. I'm not a fan. And so I go to sleep that night. Next morning I wake up and it's still like the first thing after I jump up off my knees from saying my prayers is let's explore this idea a little bit of figuring out a way to help other people who are coming into fundamentalism. And I think about all day and I'm just not coming up with with a lot of solutions.

1:19:00 And that night again, I couldn't sleep. And about 2:30 in the morning the idea comes into my head about a podcast and I was like, Nope, Nope, I you got the wrong guy one. I've never done a podcast before. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. You you got. And furthermore, I'm just not that smart about stuff. And so I I kind of have this argument with God the rest of the night where I'm just like you got the wrong guy, bro. And not me not going to do it. Get up that morning, start getting my stuff ready because I was flying out about 11:00 AM back to Salt Lake and I'm arguing with God the whole way, all the way to the airport. The whole time I'm sitting and waiting for my flight. I'm just arguing.

1:19:51 No, I've given him a ton of reasons why he's got the wrong guy, and in some respects I still feel like he has the wrong guy. But I I I'm like, no, I I I can't do it. I don't know how to do a podcast, and little things would pop into my head like, well, do you think no one and Nephi knew how to build a ship? Do you think that that you know that Joseph knew how to run a church? Not that I'd ever compare myself to any of those men, but those were the words that kind of kept creeping in. So I have this argument and I get on the plane and about halfway through my flight, I'm like, fine, fine, this is what you want.

1:20:34 I'll do it. But let me sleep. Let me just finish off this, this flight in peace and let me sleep. So I touched down. I had one layover in, like, Minneapolis. And then my flight, I catch my connector, I get to Salt Lake, and it's about 5:00 in the evening. I get back to Orem and I swing into Best Buy and I grab a couple of microphones and a laptop. And I come walking in and my, I give my wife a kiss and she's like, well, what's what? What are those? And I tell her what I'm going to do. And she was just kind of like, well, you've had worse ideas. And that was it. I watched a couple videos about how how to podcast. I bought some software, everything I could afford. And then I just, I just went for it. I just started reaching out to people that I, you know, I thought were would be interesting to talk to and started off with Adam.

1:21:36 God, right. And that was it. And then so yeah, I I I do feel it's a calling from God. And because it's a calling from God that I didn't get from a man, I I'm pretty tenacious in guarding it. I'm careful about who I bring on. I I try to vet everybody as much as I can. I I do the best I can to produce the best sounding audio. It doesn't always work out, but yeah, I try really hard because it's it's not mine, it's it's a calling that I have. Absolutely. So David, I guess one more kind of big tough question and we can lighten it up as we we head out of the second hour. And this kind of speaks to what you were telling us earlier about the way that you met and and courted and and covenanted with your your first second wife. And I guess the question is this is that for many people who are, I guess many people who are new to fundamentalism are new. And I'm talking about people who like coming out of the church, don't know much about polygamy, but are they're new to the concept of multiple plural wives. So.

1:22:51 And the best advice you could give to somebody, what's the best way of handling a situation like that when the introduction, the love, the attraction to a new sister wife occurs? And I mean, how do you broach things like that? How do you smooth things out in terms of the relationship with your first wife in that arrangement? What can you say to that? Well, First off, I'm going to say this. That might be as unique as families are. I'm not sure. There's one prescribed way. I'll tell you how it worked with me and tell you how it's turning out so far. When when Tanya came into the family, it was, it was pretty easy to be honest with you. Now I know some people are going to scoff at that, but let me explain.

1:23:41 So when when Brenda first left, there was a moment at which we maybe thought, well, maybe we should just hop right back in, right? Maybe we should just continue this thing. And now what I think was a mistake because I was still hurting and because I was hurting, there was this kind of panic that set in, and I felt like I I had to justify what I had done by making sure I kept doing it. And so Amber had met Tanya on a site and they struck up a really good friendship. I struck up a good friendship with Tanya and eventually I just had to say, look after that night on the porch.

1:24:31 I'm not ready. Not sure I'll ever be ready after this experience. We should probably tap the brakes. And but her and Amber would still just check in periodically, right? Every so many years. Now this was like 10 years ago, but throughout that 10 years it was just always kind of like, you know, her and Amber would talk a little while and then one night I had just wrapped up a podcast. Actually, Tanya had heard the podcast and messaged Amber and said sounds like David's busy and Amber kind of her and Amber kind of talked. And then it was one night after a podcast I had finished up. After I finished up a podcast, I gotta wait for the audio to process down to something I can work with. And Amber knocked on the door and I said, Yep, I'm done come on in.

1:25:34 And and she came in and she just set a phone number down in front of me and I'm like, well, what's this? And she said that's Tanya's number. What are we waiting for now? What are we waiting for? Yours is about as public as it's going to get do it. And so at that point, Tanya and I struck things back up and it progressed really quickly at that point. But keep in mind, we were in touch off and on for 10 years. Now let me say this, right? And I want to be careful because I don't want to make this sound like a generalization. This is just one guy's opinion and one guy's opinion alone.

1:26:16 Because Amber and Tanya get a wealth, get along very, very well. They're they're the best of friends. That helps to create a very harmonious feeling within the home. So if if someone was to come ask me and again, I'm not the authority, I don't want anyone to think I'm the authority, but I would say involve your first wife as quickly as possible. Because it's more than just you that the prospective new wife will be marrying, right. She'll be marrying into an existing family. And even if that's just a couple. So there there needs, there needs to be some vetting done by the sisters as well and because Amber and Tanya get along so well it it makes my life so rich and so blessed and so peaceful. Now obviously that's not the case all the time for for for others and I get that and so they're going to have to navigate that the best they can.

1:27:27 But, but that would be, you know, if if I had a son that came to me and said dad, I think this is something I want to do, that would be my first thing I tell him is involve your involve your wife as quickly as possible because if she doesn't have buy in, I think it's going to be really tough. That's just my opinion. I'm not preaching gospel here. I know that. I I know that that a lot of people have a different, have a different experience in mind and they still make it work. I'm just telling you what what my experience has been so far. That's why we're interviewing you, David. Great, great answer. So let's lighten it up a little bit, even though it's still going to be doctoral. If if I was to just be sitting with you one day and be like David, you know on a rough day, you got your scriptures with you.

1:28:14 Is there is there a go to scripture that you have on any given day that just fills your heart with joy? Probably third Nephi 17. Why is that? The whole chapter. So the whole chapter. The whole chapter. I think that it might be one of the most revealing chapters about who the Savior really is In 3rd in in in 3rd Nephi 17. This is after the Jesus has been been with the people for a little while right?

1:28:56 It's ascend. He's ascended out of the sky he he's taught him a little bit and and then he says you know what, I I, I feel like you guys are getting a little tired. Go to your homes, talk about these things and and then tomorrow when I come, we'll there'll be more. And he looks out on the multitude and he finds them crying. And because it is a whole chapter, I'm not going to try to read it here. But he sees that they're crying and then he begins to weep. And he says, you know what? Bring me all, you're sick, all you're injured. Bring them to me.

1:29:39 I'm going to heal them right now. And he heals them in front of everybody. And then he prays for the people. And then he says, bring me all of your little children. Bring them all to me. And in that moment they're encircled about with angels and and the Scripture describes it as being circled about as in the midst of fire. And angels minister to these children at the end of the day when when all cards are on the table and you're thinking about who the Savior is, I think that's who he is most.

1:30:20 Most of all, he wants nothing more than to bless us with the the righteous desires of our hearts. And oftentimes it's our own weakness that gets in the way of of those kind of divine manifestations. I love the temple, right? It's not actually scripture as we would think about it, but it absolutely is scripture. I love the temple and the Genesis account where Eve is. Adam and Eve have partaken of the fruit and they're hiding from God. And the thing that I find most moving is that it's Adam's God that is seeking after him.

1:31:05 God isn't passive in our lives when we screw up. It's not like, well, you screwed up. I guess I'll just wait for you to come back now. Certainly it has to be our own will and we do have to take that first step. But I believe God, because he loves his children, is out there seeking after us. Even when we mess up, even when we've transgressed, he's still seeking for us. And I think that that there'll be people that are placed in your way or circumstances that will make you remember things. And and so those are the two things that did I go to a lot as I as I struggle with things, as I as I try to make sense of things.

1:31:49 Just remembering that there's a Savior and a Eternal Father who's both the the Father of our spirits as well as our bodies, that that is active in seeking us out and no matter what condition we are, He loves us that much. That is, that is beautiful. Now one thing I know about this podcast and and one thing I know about my own endeavor with Chad over at The Fundamentalist is we aren't necessarily at all preaching to the converted. There are many mainstream Mormons and even non Mormons who are going to hear your words in all of your shows and they're going to read our magazine or find things in an Ogden Kraut book and are going to go from there. That's how I started.

1:32:46 For those out there who aren't fundamentalists yet, what's your advice? What should they listen to? What should they seek if they're seeking? Oh, well, the first thing I tell someone is because and and and this is only because one. I experienced it. Now, my experience is a little different, but I think some of the feelings are the same. And this comes from some other people I know who've come out of the LDS Church. There's a sense of panic that creeps in when someone who's been raised with a certain narrative their whole life finds out that that narrative might not be the narrative that's correct or truthful. There's a sense of panic that creeps in, and in that panic we can do foolish things and we must be careful in that time. So the first thing I would say is just breathe. Just catch your breath.

1:33:50 It's OK. God still exists. God is still sat in Yonder heavens. That has not changed. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because you think that you haven't received the things that that you feel like might be true doesn't mean that the whole gospel is not true. It just means that your understanding hasn't been completely enlightened yet. Mine hasn't been completely enlightened yet. But I would say just breathe. Next, reach out to reputable sources. If there's one thing my hope is for the podcast, it's that it can be a place people can go to get truth.

1:34:37 Now there's a lot of conjecture and a lot of opinion that are also on my podcast, both from me and my guests. But my guests are way smarter and the truth is on the important things they usually agree on 99.5% of them. OK, next I would say this. Do your homework right. I look, I'll help anybody any way I can. We'll find a place for you to be, if that's what you need. If you need to figure out how to be an independent, I know great independents who can help you help you navigate those waters. If you feel like you should be long be be a part of a group. I know several groups who I think are absolutely fantastic folks who would welcome you with open arms but do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. So don't panic.

1:35:27 Don't freak out. Seek reputable sources. I I I would have no problem sending someone to to you and Chad to to help them investigate things and know that I'm I'm not your Bishop. I'm not your stake president. I'm not here to tell you where to go. I can point you to options and and that's that's what I would say. No, you have options. Fundamentalism does not come in one flavor. It it, it's got a variety to it. It absolutely does. And so you need to be prayerful in figuring out where it is you and your family are supposed to go. And don't just look at it either in terms of I'm going there to be ministered to more. More than likely there's someone there that you're supposed to minister to as well.

1:36:16 Don't sell yourself short, like bring a wealth of experience when you enter fundamentalism. And there's a way to even have fellowship if you're an independent. Don't think you have to be isolated. Bad things happen in isolation. I would say stay away from Warren Jeffs with everything in you. I don't. I. Would not disagree with you. I I don't think you're going to find a whole bunch there, maybe some heartache, but I think I think most fundamentalist and most fundamentalist groups are are doing the best they can with what they got. In the defense of Colorado City, I will say I I'm in contact with folks there, a lot of folks there.

1:36:57 There are some good things happening in Short Creek right now. It's not happening for the whole church or for everybody there. But there are good things happening. There are faithful believers there that are doing it right. Right as being outside of Warren. Just purview. As not being a Warren Knight, they they would still consider themselves culturally FLDS. They are not, of course, in Centennial Park or Second Warders, but they're definitely not Warrenites. Truly. There will always be FLDS and they will always be fundamentalists and they have a a large group of people there.

1:37:43 But there are good things happening outside the purview of Warren Jeffs or any of his brothers. That's what I say is probably stay away from the Jeffs, right? That's. Right that. Would be my one, my one thing and like I said, I'm always here. I always return the emails. It may take me a a week or so because I get a lot of emails, but I'll I'll definitely get back with people I always have. And that's one of the things I noticed about you from the very beginning and like you just said, 99.95%. You and I, in our discussions about everything wide-ranging things from from just day-to-day life to some deep doctrine. You and I have found that there's 99.95% similarity.

1:38:25 There's that .05%. Yeah, that there's going to be a difference, but that's OK. That's the beautiful part of all this, is that .05% doesn't amount to a hill of beans when we understand that we have more in common than we have differences. You know, I'm, I'm going to share something else here and and this goes back I think to your Zion question a little bit and it kind of ties in with this. The podcast has given me tremendous hope. I'll I'll be honest with you because when I first started it, I wasn't too hopeful that we could, we could work that, that various groups and various independents could work together on things.

1:39:08 The podcast has shown me that that's absolutely not the case, that there are people willing to work with each other. And I remember after it was about December of last year, I kind of released all the episodes I was going to release for the rest of the year. And I'm like OK, shouldn't say I had them released. I just had them processed and ready and I had about a two week period where I could shut it down, be between Christmas and New Year's. And I just remember I leaned back in my chair and this thought just out of the blue came to me, which was this.

1:39:49 If there's one thing I know about God, it's that he loves a dramatic ending and I get goosebumps again thinking about this. It was such a surreal experience, but yet so tangible in that moment. I was, I was thinking, yeah, God really loves a dramatic ending. I wonder how all this is going to shake out with all these various fundamentalists. And if there's one thing I know about God, say he loves a dramatic ending. If there's one thing I know about evil, it's it. Evil always overplays its hand. Always. And I believe we're about to go through some really rough, challenging times, times that I don't think we're fully ready for, I'm not sure we could ever be fully ready for.

1:40:41 And they're going to be times that try us. And there's going to come a moment, Greg, and I firmly believe this with everything in me, that it's going to look bad, it's going to look really bad. And in that moment where it looks like evil's going to win, God is just going to say, OK, everybody stand up where you are now and it won't have to be coordinated through anybody. We'll just hear the call and we'll all stand up. And in that moment, evil will have one of the worst, oh crap moments it has ever had because it's going to realize it's now surrounded. I believe that fully. I believe that the Lord's not done with this people. I believe that there's many good people out there who are fulfilling their role the best they know how, with the information that God has given them, and that's all any of us can do.

1:41:36 So you just got to do your part, whatever your part is, and then when God tells you to stand, just stand. Stand right where he told you to stand, and he'll take it from there. But we've all got to do our part. I couldn't agree more. That brings me to this is, and you know, I'm a journalist, so it's always my final question of the night of the day. Whenever I'm doing a story, I'd always ask this question as the very end. Is there anything that I've missed that you want folks to know about? I don't think so. Just know that I'm nobody's nobody's authority. That would be the one thing I say. Whatever I say, take it with a grain of salt, because I'm as fallible as the next man.

1:42:19 So. Yeah, absolutely. And and that's something I think I was, I was talking to some missionaries from one of the groups the other day and you know we were being, they were being clear about the fact that when a prophet speaks as a as a prophet, we're talking about a prophet. We're not talking about Dave Sanders When a prophet speaks as a prophet, well, by all means he's a prophet. But when he doesn't have the mantle of prophet hanging over him in a given moment, he speaks as a man. And I think if more people realize that and gave that kind of grace to the men who lead our groups, I think we'd be a lot better off. And I think a lot of us would be able to deal with some of the shortcomings that every man has. Look.

1:43:04 I I maintain this It is not fair to us as people to expect leaders to be perfect. It's not fair to us because we're setting ourselves up to be disappointed. Men are fallible. They're going to make mistakes. Likewise, it's not fair to the men who are who are in charge to expect them to be infallible. You have to get your own revelation on things and you need to stand by that revelation, even if you have to stand what feels like alone for a little bit. Look, I I had to do it on this podcast a couple times and then out of the woodwork, I'm like, oh, I'm not so alone. I'm, I'm not out here by myself.

1:43:45 I felt like it. But sometimes it just takes one person to say something to get others to to stand up. I believe fear is contagious, but I also believe courage is contagious as well. Couldn't agree more. David, thank you so much for I guess letting me kind of host your show tonight. It's been a fantastic and man, I can't wait to hear it. And then eventually, after the podcast drops, we'll have a text version over at the Fundamentalist Online. I'm looking forward to reading it so well, Not this part, but the rest of the magazine. And it'll be the rest of the magazine's coming middle of 2014 or 2024. Excuse me, I can't believe I said 20/14/2024, but this actual interview will be edited down and excerpted onto The Fundamentalist Online.

1:44:39 Perfect. All right. Thanks, Greg. Thanks a lot, David. Talk to you soon. Bye everybody. The.