Episode #104 Oh How The Tables Have Turned! W/Guest Host Greg Knight

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So the second or third episode I
ever did on the podcast was

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about me.
After a few months, I grew to

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dislike that episode more and
more, so I took it down.

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I also never wanted this podcast
to be about me.

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I wanted it to be about Mormon
history and Mormon doctrine.

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Well, Fast forward a year and a
half, and I've had several

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requests for that episode.
Interestingly enough, about that

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same time I was approached by
Greg Knight about him

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interviewing me for his magazine
The Fundamentalist.

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So I thought, well, let's kill
two birds with one stone here

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and combine the two.
So today I'm publishing that

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interview.
So if you ever wanted to know

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how it is I got behind this mic,
Here you go.

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And that's next on this episode
of the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse.
To become and raise men and

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women of virtue and character is
a Herculean task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com.

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Go to the bottom of the page,
search out the blog post, and

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order your copy today.
I can bear personal testimony

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from personal experience that
this is an invaluable tool to

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help you raise men and women of
virtue and character.

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OK, just a couple of quick
announcements here.

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If you're looking for a place to
attend sacrament meeting and

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don't know where to go, I want
you to reach out to me.

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Me and others stand ready to
help you find a spiritual home,

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whether that's a new church, a
gathering spot of independence,

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OR even if you just need a soft
place to land for a time to

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learn how to have sacrament
meeting in your own home.

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Myself and others stand ready to
help you find that place.

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All you got to do is just drop
me a line at

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mormonrenegade@gmail.com and
we'll quickly reach out to you

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to help you find the place you
want and need to be next.

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I have felt for a while now that
the sisters haven't had a good

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place to go to have their
questions answered without a

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bunch of dudes creeping around
to fill this need.

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My wife Tanya has set up a
Facebook group just for women to

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talk about questions about
fundamentalism.

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The name of that group is Mormon
Fundamentalism for Women.

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Now, just a warning, if you're a
dude thinking about trying to

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jump on this site, I'm going to
give this to you in my best Liam

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Neeson impression.
I have a certain set of skills

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and I'll find you and I will
publicly mock you endlessly

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without mercy for many, many
weeks.

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So whether you're a
fundamentalist woman seeking

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sisterhood or a woman
investigating fundamentalism,

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this place is for you.
Again, the name of that Facebook

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group is Mormon Fundamentalism
for Women.

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You're listening to the More
Than Renegade podcast.

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Well, this is novel.
Not sure I like it a whole

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bunch, but it's novel.
So we're going to do something a

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little bit different.
So I I've been getting some

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requests of people that want to
have an episode that talks about

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me a little bit.
And I'm not super excited about

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it, to be honest with you,
because I've went out of my way

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to make the podcast not about
me.

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But I get the the desire to want
to know who it is is talking on

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the other end of the mic.
So I get it for this, I brought

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on Greg Knight, now Greg helps
me out, will be starting to help

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me out on the news program.
We we're we're changing some

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things up there and we're going
to tighten some things down and

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and try to give you your money's
worth.

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But since Greg has like
journalistic chops having worked

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for the media and stuff before,
I thought he was probably the

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perfect one to do this.
So at this point, I'm just going

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to turn it over to Greg.
Great.

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How you doing?
Great.

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David, how are you doing?
How was your day?

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Excellent, excellent.
Same here.

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And you know, I really want to
thank you too, because this is

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really a collaborative effort
that we're doing because you

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know, of course, me along with
Chad, we have the fundamentalist

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online.
And you know, the vast majority

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of what we talk about today at
some point in the near future is

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going to be put out there for
folks to read online as well.

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If they, you know, maybe don't
have the bandwidth to listen to

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the podcast, well, they can sure
as heck read it.

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So it's going to be a fun time.
Absolutely.

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Absolutely.
Yeah.

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So David, I guess the first
question, and you know it's,

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it's one that's on everyone's
mind who I believe ever

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encounters Mormonism.
And that is, what was your first

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exposure to Mormonism and maybe
you could talk about how it

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changed your life?
Yeah, so you got to go back to

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kind of pivotal moment.
When I was a kid growing up, my

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dad was my best friend.
I mean, you know, a lot of kids

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say, you know, the old man was
kind of an ass.

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I didn't have that experience.
My dad was great.

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My only complaint is I didn't
have him around long enough or

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what I perceived should have
been long enough.

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And he passed when I was 13,
back in 1991, I believe.

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And I remember so.
So my dad was kind of, oh, he

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was he he believed in God.
But he wasn't really religious,

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right.
He just kind of felt like he he

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didn't have a whole lot of, he
didn't have a lot of time for

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hypocrisy.
And So what he saw in a lot of

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organized religion was just
that, a lot of hypocrisy and he

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just didn't have time for it.
So we just we we were, we were

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always raised with the idea that
yes, God is real, but we didn't

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attend Sunday school or anything
like that, didn't have a church,

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we called our own, that sort of
thing.

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So the night he passed, we had
good friends that lived next to

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us named Donna and Charles, and
they were a sweet couple.

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I didn't grow up knowing either
of my grandparents.

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I did know my my mom's adoptive
father for a for a while, but

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not very long.
So really at that point Donna

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and Charles were the closest
thing we you know I imagined

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grandparents would be And Donna
went to the hospital with my mom

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when when there was something
going on we were at school and

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we came home and you know
there's just a note on the table

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that said hey, go go next door
to to Charles house he'll feed

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you dinner had pizza.
I remember we we just kind of

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were were watching basketball.
If I remember correctly it was

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back when Jordan was really
tearing it up in 91 for the

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Bulls and we were watching a
Bulls game and went to sleep.

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And then about 3:30 in the
morning we get woke up and it's

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my mom and Donna and Charles and
two guys I'd never seen before

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and my siblings and I just
remember my mom said your dad's

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been sick for a long time.
He he struggled with heart

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disease quite a bit and she said
he doesn't have to suffer

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anymore.
And I knew what that meant.

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But she hadn't said it yet.
And then she just kind of said

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he passed away.
And I didn't cry like right

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then, right that that was
something I I remember thinking

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in the moment that felt weird
and I just was like, but but I

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started to feel almost this
panicky feeling, right.

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I don't know how to to describe
it.

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And I remember I was like, I'm,
I'm going home.

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I'm going home to my room, to my
own space.

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And I was about just walking up
the steps.

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And I remember it just hit me
like, like a tsunami.

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I was never going to see my dad
again.

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And I I let out kind of this
yell that even shocked me a

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little bit and this pastor that.
So the two guys I didn't

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recognize, they were pastors of
Donna and Charles's church.

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And I I don't want to disparage
them.

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I don't think that they were
trying to be rough or anything

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like that.
I just think it's what they

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believed looking back on it.
But I I remember I just kind of

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dropped my stuff and I sat on
the porch and wept and this

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pastor just sat down next to me.
And at 13, he must have thought

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I was a little foul mouthed
puke, 'cause I remember I looked

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at him, I'm like, who the hell
are you?

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And he he just said, well, well
I'm a I'm I'm a pastor of the

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church that Donna and Charles
goes to.

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I'm like, OK, so you can answer
some questions.

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What happens to my dad now?
Where's my dad?

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And he just said, you know if if
he didn't turn his life over to

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Jesus Christ right before he
died, we're really not sure what

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happens.
Later I discovered that that

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meant he's he's essentially
lost, right.

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He he's going to hell.
And that didn't sit right with

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me, Greg.
Not one bit.

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And so I I was a weird kid.
I I really was.

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I about high school.
I started like I was a kind of

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kid that would go get high in my
car, blow away a fatty in my car

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at lunchtime while listening to
Rush Limbaugh.

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And that, you know, and then I
might read the Quran or study

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the Torah a little bit, or the
baga devita, right?

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And just trying to get those
answers and nothing ever fit.

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Now, I was a bit of a partier in
school as well, and I remember I

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had a good friend named Lee who
was a Mormon, and he found out

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he was doing like this church
tour, right, 'cause I would go

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from church to church.
I found a a quasi mosque in

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Boise that I went to once.
I I visited A synagogue.

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I I looked at at Hinduism.
I looked at Buddhism.

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There was a there was a Buddhist
temple just in the neighboring

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town over in Oregon.
And so I, I I went to them all.

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And I remember once Lee says,
well, you're gonna look at my

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religion, right?
And I'm like, no, I don't see

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how stop.
You know how if I quit drinking

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coffee, that's gonna help
anything?

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And it wasn't until, you know, I
was.

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I was 18 and I met my wife and
she wasn't real active in the

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LDS church, but she was raised
Mormon.

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And I remember there was one day
we were taking a drive after we

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were picking out colors, I think
like fabrics or something for

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the wedding.
I didn't care.

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My wife was just hot and I was
like, whatever, whatever you

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want, it's fine.
And I remember on on that ride

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she said, hey, I got a question
for you.

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I'm like, sure.
She's like, I think I'd like to

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raise our kids in the LDS
church.

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And I'm like, that's great.
I don't have a problem with

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that.
Mormons are cool.

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Some of my best designated
drivers were Mormons.

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And she's like, OK, don't you
think you should know what

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they're being taught?
And I'm like, absolutely not,

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'cause by this time I kind of
wash my hands.

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I believed there was a God, but
I believed he was more like the

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God that the deists taught,
right?

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That he was a clock maker, that
he just kind of created the

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world.
He wounded up, and then he just

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kind of becomes uninvolved, if
that makes sense.

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Maybe with a a few exceptions,
but for the most part

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uninvolved.
And I I was like, I I I have no

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desire, no desire at all.
And I remember she just kind of

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said, well, it would go a long
ways in making my mom feel

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better.
I was like, oh, crap.

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I was like, I'll tell you what,
I'll, I'll, I'll take those

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discussions.
Right.

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This is 95.
So there's no preach my gospel.

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This is, this is pamphlets,
right?

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This is reading material, very
structured.

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And I said fine, fine.
But here's the caveat.

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If you if anyone asked me if I
want to be baptized, anybody,

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00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,760
I'm out.
I'm out.

223
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,880
You will not see me.
We will be done.

224
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,720
I'm happy to sit there and have
a discussion with them, but I am

225
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,640
not joining it because Mormons
are weird.

226
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,520
I mean, you're hot, honey, but
Mormons are weird.

227
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,680
And she said, fair enough.
So this arrangement gets made

228
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,840
that that they can come over and
teach, but I'm not going to be

229
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:35,000
asked to be baptized.
I talked to my mom about it and

230
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,200
she's like, well, you can take
those discussions, but you're

231
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,880
not taking them here.
She was pretty opposed to it.

232
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,240
I was like, OK, I was like,
that's fine.

233
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,160
I'll just take them at Amber's
mom's place.

234
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,120
And so she lived about 20 miles
away from me.

235
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,120
So I drive out there and take
the discussions and and the

236
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,080
first discussion rolls around
and I'll, I'll always remember

237
00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,120
their names.
Greg, it was Elder Peruka, he

238
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:05,200
was from West TX somewhere.
And then Elder Anonich who was

239
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:11,120
from Russia and Elder Anonich
didn't speak a word of English.

240
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,520
I think he had Amen down by that
point.

241
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,400
And so we go through the first
discussion in those days, they

242
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,600
they, you know, would kind of
start telling you a little bit

243
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,160
about the Book of Mormon and
about Jesus Christ.

244
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,360
And then there was, they
encouraged you to read in this

245
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,120
pamphlet the Moronized promise,
right?

246
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,640
You know, if you pray about
these things, you'll experience

247
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,840
a burning of the bosom and
you'll know that they're true.

248
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:40,760
And I was completely
uninterested.

249
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:41,880
I'm like, sure.
Great.

250
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,080
Sounds awesome.
And so that first discussion

251
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,480
ended.
I had to stay the night there

252
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,320
because by the time we finished
up it was over.

253
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:56,280
Now the next morning, Amber had
just graduated high school or

254
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,320
been accepted to a college.
I can't remember which.

255
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:04,360
But anyway, she was, she was,
her and her mom were going to go

256
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,400
to McCall, which still resort
town, kind of up up about middle

257
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,240
of the state in Idaho.
And they were going to go up

258
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,200
there for a long weekend and
just have some fun.

259
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,000
And I was like, well, this is
cool because I'm going to do

260
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,280
what I always do.
I'm going to go home, I'm going

261
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,840
to grab my tent and my pole and
I'm going to go head out to go

262
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,680
fishing, spend the weekend out
there.

263
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,760
Now I had this little spot that
I that I had that I went to all

264
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,160
the time, but it was a hike back
there, right?

265
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,920
It was about 5 miles, but it was
so secluded and it was marked by

266
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,960
this one tree that had kind of
been burnt in a fire and it had

267
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:41,920
no limbs on it.
It was just the trunk and it was

268
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,640
kind of leaning over a little
bit, but about 50 yards past

269
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,120
that there was a little Eddy
that ran off the Snake River.

270
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,040
And because it was an Eddy, the
the water moved a lot slower, so

271
00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,400
it was a lot clearer, right?
And I'd always been able to go

272
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,880
out when I found it.
It was just perfect, 'cause I

273
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,040
could go out there, I could toss
my line in, you could see the

274
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:07,119
catfish and the the the the
trout down there.

275
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,599
And I never had a problem.
I always caught what I ate.

276
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,839
So the the discussion wraps up.
I drive back home, Amber and

277
00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:17,319
Mom's going to be gone for the
weekend.

278
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:19,280
You know this is before cell
phones too, right?

279
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:24,520
This is like 95.
The the cell phones were around.

280
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,000
It's just not everybody had them
right?

281
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,480
It was it was a real status
symbol at that point.

282
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,880
And so I get home, I unload my
bag.

283
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:38,480
I put all my my gear in the bag,
you know, a change of clothes, a

284
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,480
sweatshirt, change of socks.
And I start heading out there

285
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,600
and I don't get I, I I took a
nap and I didn't get a a great

286
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,200
start.
I I ended up heading out, oh, I

287
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,280
want to say probably 3:00 in the
afternoon to the point that by

288
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,720
the time I made it out to that
little spot that I had, it was

289
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,800
it was getting dark.
So I get out there I look down,

290
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,840
sure enough, there there's
there's there's fish in that

291
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,240
Eddy.
I had some lemons and some

292
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,920
pepper, some butter and I always
just caught what I ate, filleted

293
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,040
it wrapped it in tin foil put
some seasonings on it and just

294
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,000
cooked it right.
I get the fire started.

295
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:27,520
I I I tossed the line in and
nothing nothing happens.

296
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,640
Now it it was unusual cause
usually it took me 15 minutes

297
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:37,120
tops and I was reeling something
in Greg and all of a sudden

298
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:41,080
nothing's happening, right?
And now it's dark and I'm like,

299
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,280
well, I'm not hiking back out
tonight, I guess.

300
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,960
I guess I'm just going to sit
here till I catch something or

301
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,720
you know, go hungry.
It's kind of what I was

302
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:56,440
thinking.
And finally about 11:00 that

303
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,640
nothing was hitting the pole.
I mean, I've been there 3-4

304
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,320
hours and nothing's happening.
Although I can see, you know, I

305
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,440
I saw a fish down there.
I know they're there.

306
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:09,640
So I'm sitting by the fire.
I'm like, well, crap, what the

307
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,400
hell am I going to do now?
And I remember I just kind of

308
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,680
glanced and I noticed that, you
know, that missionary version of

309
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,120
the Book of Mormon, you know,
blue with the gold letters.

310
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,320
I've got it sitting right in
front of me.

311
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,520
OK, it was sitting at the bottom
of my bag.

312
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,360
I had failed to take it out when
I threw everything else on top

313
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:30,840
of it.
So I thought, well, there's no

314
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,360
one around not doing anything
else.

315
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,960
I might as well just maybe read
this a little bit and see what I

316
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,480
see, what I think.
And so I went ahead and I I

317
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,840
started reading it right.
And I read Moroni's Promise and

318
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,080
I read a couple other things.
But to be honest with you, Greg,

319
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,640
it didn't hit me real hard.
I was like, this sounds like the

320
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,000
Bible, right?
I mean, I'm not saying it's, you

321
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,120
know, a bad book.
I'm just saying I don't think

322
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,960
it's true.
So I put, I put the Bible, I put

323
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,560
the Book of Mormon down and I
waited probably another 1520

324
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,480
minutes and I'm like, Paul's
still not doing nothing.

325
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,080
I'm like, well, I suppose I
could read this book and then I

326
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,560
could challenge the missionaries
on it if I find something that

327
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,920
sticks out.
So I start reading just various

328
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,040
passages, right?
I just really flip through.

329
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,480
It is what I do.
And I finally get to the story

330
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,240
of a Benedi, right?
And and flipping around and it's

331
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,960
the one where he's testifying
before King Noah and they can't

332
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,360
touch him.
And Greg, that hits me.

333
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:43,720
Something about that story hit
me and I put the book down and I

334
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,520
kind of look around again and I
decided I'm going to read one

335
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,480
more time and I I read my own
eyes.

336
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,360
Promise.
And I look back around and no

337
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:58,480
one's there.
I'm like, well, no one can see

338
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,200
me doing this.
So I guess I'm all right, 'cause

339
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,880
I was a major partier.
I was like, well, I haven't

340
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,560
really said many prayers in my
life, but I guess I could give

341
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,120
this a go.
And I prayed to know if the Book

342
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:15,080
of Mormon was true and if it and
this will, this will factor in

343
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:21,920
heavier later in my story.
I ask if the Book of Mormon is

344
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:31,400
true and if the gospel is true.
And I pray and all of the sudden

345
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,000
there's there's no miraculous
vision.

346
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,520
There's nothing like that,
right?

347
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,000
But it's an overwhelming feeling
that I know it's true.

348
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,720
And I sit there for 10 minutes.
Somewhat dumbfounded, right?

349
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,200
And I sit back down on the log
that I was looking at the fire

350
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,000
and I was like, well, this
sucks, 'cause I don't want to be

351
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,320
a Mormon.
There's a thousand other things

352
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,200
that that sound more interesting
to me than being a Mormon.

353
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,680
But I was like, oh, I still have
God on the hook here because I

354
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,320
ain't told those elders and
everybody involved, they weren't

355
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,200
to ask me if I was to be
baptized.

356
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,960
So I thought I had God.
I was.

357
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,120
And.
And I even said, look, if you

358
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,400
want me to be baptized, you're
gonna have to, you know, really

359
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,640
tell one of them to ask me.
And I don't think they're gonna

360
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,280
do that because I I I was less
than happy to be there.

361
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,360
And I'd made it clear that I
wasn't getting baptized.

362
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:31,160
They knew that going in.
And then I reiterated it, that

363
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:38,040
first discussion.
And so the pole started dancing.

364
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,640
I was able to catch, catch fish.
I ate.

365
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,080
I went to sleep, stayed there
the next day.

366
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:51,120
Hiked out that night, Tuesday
was was my next appointment with

367
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,720
the missionaries.
So Tuesday rolls around and and

368
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,560
I got to say Greg, I was feeling
pretty confident.

369
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,640
I felt like I, I, I I had a
loophole and I was going to work

370
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,640
that loophole right, because the
mission no one was supposed to

371
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:08,480
ask me if I if I'd be baptized.
And the discussion starts.

372
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,560
And to be honest with you, I
don't remember much from that

373
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,280
discussion.
What I do remember is that Elder

374
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:20,120
Ananich, who didn't speak a word
of English, just kept staring me

375
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,880
down.
And at one point I remember

376
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,760
thinking This is why the KGB was
so effective, because that dude

377
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,720
is Mad Dog and me the whole way
through and we're about halfway

378
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,720
through now, maybe 3/4 and the
weirdest thing happened.

379
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,480
Elder Ananich, as he's leaning
back, all of a sudden he just

380
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,280
leans forward and he puts his
hand on Elder Peruca's knee.

381
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,440
The the one from West, TX and
and great English just says,

382
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:53,800
will you be baptized?
And the room gets real

383
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,720
uncomfortable, right, 'cause
they're expecting me to kind of

384
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,520
lose my crap and start, you
know, I, you know, yelling, I

385
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,120
told you that I wasn't going to
do this, blah blah blah.

386
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:11,000
And I just kind of had to let my
head hit my, you know, let my

387
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,920
chin hit my chest.
And I was like, well, I guess

388
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,240
so.
And that was that was it.

389
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,960
That's how I became a Mormon.
We finished up those discussions

390
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,240
that week, had a baptismal
interview in the LDS Church, and

391
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,800
I became a Mormon.
Wow, that is.

392
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,400
That is an amazing, amazing
story.

393
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,080
I'm so glad you told it.
And that now brings me to the

394
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,960
next question that I really have
been thinking about all week as

395
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,280
we began this discussion of
having this show.

396
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,880
You spent a lot of years in the
the mainstream church.

397
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,320
I did.
Can you remember the first time

398
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,200
that you were exposed to or
became aware of fundamentalist

399
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,880
doctrine, and can you talk about
that?

400
00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:01,320
Yeah, So the first time I'm
exposed to it, I go home and I

401
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,200
tell my mom because at some
point she's going to find out,

402
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,680
right?
I mean, I'm 18.

403
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,120
I can do what I want, but I'm
also living in her house.

404
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,800
I'm like, OK, here's the deal.
I'm going to become a Mormon.

405
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,440
And she's like, look, you're 18,
you can do whatever you want,

406
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,200
but if you're going to be a
Mormon, you're not going to live

407
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:25,240
here.
And I was like, well, crap.

408
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,360
And to kind of persuade me not
to, she went and talked to that

409
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,840
that same pastor who just
happened to be a specialist in

410
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:39,280
trying to to debunk Mormonism.
So he goes to the Journal of

411
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,200
Discourses and he starts pulling
stuff out about Adam, God, blood

412
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,680
atonement, curse of Cain, plural
marriage.

413
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,560
I mean, anything you could think
of that was controversial about

414
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,200
Mormonism, he found it.
I was.

415
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,360
Like he had a journal of
discourses on hand.

416
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,240
He did, yeah.
Or at least he had.

417
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,280
He had files or something, but
they were printed.

418
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,160
They were just printed pages,
right?

419
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,600
That wasn't like the actual
journal discourses.

420
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,600
It was just printed pages.
And so I was reading through it

421
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,520
and like kind of dug the Adam
God stuff, right?

422
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,560
The the the curse of Cain was a
little troublesome to me.

423
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,560
Plural marriage I found
fascinating.

424
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,840
Blood atonement kind of made
sense to me to be honest with

425
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,800
you.
I was like, OK, it's, you know,

426
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,920
it's it kind of the way Brigham
talked about it sounded like

427
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,800
just capital punishment and a
Theo democracy, right.

428
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:39,640
But I had questions about the
Adam God stuff.

429
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,640
I had questions about the plural
marriage stuff.

430
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,640
And so I show it to my elders
like 2 days later and they're

431
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,920
like, I have never seen this
before.

432
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,880
Let's let's get the Bishop over
here.

433
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,640
And the Bishop comes over and he
looks at it and he's like, yeah,

434
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,280
I kind of heard about some of
this.

435
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,200
The plural marriage stuff I'm
pretty familiar with.

436
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,680
But the whole Adam God thing,
not so much blood atonement,

437
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,880
Haven't really heard of that.
You know what, Let's, let's get

438
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,400
you, let's let me call the stake
president real quick.

439
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:11,760
And so he calls the stake
president.

440
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:17,160
And the stake president directs
me to go talk to our stake

441
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,200
patriarch who lived in the town.
I was taking the discussions and

442
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,040
he spent, he was so great.
I remember I went over to his

443
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,880
place.
I knocked on the door and his

444
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,440
wife answered and she was a
sweet old lady.

445
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,240
And she's like, oh, he's on the
tractor.

446
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,440
She's he goes, she says, he said
you'd be coming over.

447
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,280
Just drive down that dirt road
right there and you'll see him

448
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,840
and he'll probably have you come
up and get in the tractor with

449
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,160
him.
I'm like, OK, cool.

450
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,200
So we have deep conversations.
And then he takes me into his

451
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,040
house.
And I mean, he's got every old

452
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,200
school book of Mormonism you can
imagine.

453
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,080
And so he, he takes some things
off and he explains some things

454
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,400
to me, like, look, I think this
might be true, but we really

455
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,080
don't talk about this in church.
If you need to have these

456
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,880
discussions, you come see me
because you'll get in trouble.

457
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,760
I'm like, oh, so there's like,
secret knowledge.

458
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,320
He's like, oh, yeah, there's
secret knowledge.

459
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,520
And so I I have that
conversations with him.

460
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,120
My questions are sufficiently
answered and I'm baptized.

461
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:26,520
And then I work the program, so
to speak for a good, let's see,

462
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:32,480
95, probably 13, well probably
12 years, right?

463
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,680
Amber and I, we end up getting
married, we have kids.

464
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,560
We moved to Maryland, we moved
back to Idaho.

465
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,800
And while I'm in Idaho the the
second time, it's because I get

466
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:52,080
spooked.
So this is about 2006, 2007 I

467
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:58,600
guess and I was part owner of a
business at that time and we me

468
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,200
and a couple other guys had got
together and just decided we

469
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,440
were going to make kind of a a
one stop land development

470
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,880
company, right.
So it was me who was doing the

471
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,320
survey stuff.
And then we had an architect and

472
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,680
a structural engineer and a
civil engineer.

473
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,800
And this, this is going
somewhere, I promise.

474
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:24,120
But I got to set the stage here
and then a landscape architect,

475
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,760
and we were just killing it,
Greg.

476
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,680
I mean, like we added eight
crews in the space of one

477
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,000
calendar year.
And I was like, you know, I'm

478
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,240
not an economist, but this
doesn't seem healthy.

479
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,720
So I call up a buddy who worked
for at the time what was called

480
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,200
Academy Mortgage.
It's a huge lender out in the

481
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,520
West for mortgages.
And he was down in Salt Lake.

482
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,160
And I said, man, let me take you
to lunch.

483
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:51,640
Let me run down there take a
lunch.

484
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,240
I want to pick your brain on
this economy.

485
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:58,600
He's like, sure.
And so we have lunch and I'll.

486
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,920
I'll never forget it.
We were sitting the old

487
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,520
Crossroads Mall.
You you remember that?

488
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,120
Oh yeah, absolutely.
We were sitting in the old

489
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,160
Crossroads Mall and they had
this.

490
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,360
They still have it there in the
in the new mall, but it's called

491
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,520
Great steak, right, which is
just cheese steaks.

492
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,680
And I'm like, that sounds good.
We'll swing in there.

493
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,240
So we sit down, we're talking.
And it's an off hour, right?

494
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,760
We go to lunch at like 1:30.
And I said, dude, what is going

495
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,760
on with this economy?
He's like, what do you mean?

496
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:35,080
And I told him what I'd done and
he got white, like, like, like a

497
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,960
a a, a white sheet kind of
white.

498
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,880
And he goes, well, this isn't
normal.

499
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,920
And I was like, well, what are
you talking about?

500
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,760
He explains to me toxic
mortgages.

501
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,840
He talks about how they're
they're making these loans and

502
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,240
then they're wrapping them up
and then they're selling them to

503
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:54,640
the government essentially.
Right.

504
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,960
And Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
Now, I'm not a super smart guy,

505
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,280
but I'm enough.
I'm, I'm enough of a thinker to

506
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,480
do math and go, yeah, this is
unsustainable.

507
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,000
So I went back to my partners
and I just said, look, this bad

508
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:14,120
boy's coming down.
I suggest we we, you know, don't

509
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,360
hire anybody else.
We don't grow.

510
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,120
And we buckle down for hard
times.

511
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,000
And they laughed at me.
I'll never forget it.

512
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,880
They laughed at me when I called
that meeting.

513
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,120
And at that point I just said,
you know what, cash me out.

514
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,920
There's a guy behind me who's
ready to take over.

515
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,760
Just cash me out.
And so they cashed me out.

516
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,640
And they were, they were more
than fair to me.

517
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,920
But I went back to that same
little town where I was baptized

518
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,520
at, only we were way out in the
sticks.

519
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,880
We were probably 5 miles from
town and I bought this house.

520
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,400
It was like a three bedroom, 1
bathroom house.

521
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,120
But I renovated the garage and
turned it into living space and

522
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,480
added a bathroom.
Sure enough, about the end of

523
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,640
2007, it came down and it came
down hard.

524
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:08,840
And so we were out there and I
was just doing little surveys

525
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,160
for farmers, right?
Not a ton of money, but it was

526
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,800
enough that we could get by
because the house was pretty

527
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:19,760
much free and clear.
Now there was nobody around us

528
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,200
except for one person that was
literally 50 feet from me.

529
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:31,280
And for argument's sakes, and
I'm going to try to do this.

530
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,280
I've screwed up a couple of
times.

531
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,200
But you know what?
I'm just going to call her

532
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,960
Brenda.
To hell with it at this point.

533
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,120
Everyone knows who I am.
There's a woman next door named

534
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,680
Brenda, and her and Amber became
really good friends.

535
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:59,440
And Brenda was a divorcee, and
she had a ton of stuff to do

536
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,960
around her property, right?
She had a couple acres.

537
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,320
I think we had five if memory
serves.

538
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,720
But because I wasn't working
every day right I would go do a

539
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,600
job and couple 1000 bucks And so
if I did, if I did five or six a

540
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,440
month, I was making plenty of
money cause again we didn't have

541
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,040
a house payment.
The cars were paid off.

542
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:30,000
We were smart and and what would
happen is is that Amber would

543
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,480
would kind of loan me out if you
will to go help Brenda right.

544
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:41,040
It would be like hey Brenda
needs trees trimmed or or the

545
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:46,200
lawn mowed or any number of
things right patch a hole in the

546
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,480
roof on the her shed whatever.
And as soon as we moved back to

547
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:56,560
that little area, I got put in
in in an elders corn presidency.

548
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,680
I wasn't a the president but I
was in an elders corn presidency

549
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:05,920
at that time.
And I remember as I was working

550
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,480
on her house once I just kind of
remember thinking this feels

551
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,600
natural.
And then I scared myself.

552
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,639
Greg, I was like Nope, Nope.
I take my there's two things.

553
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:21,400
I take my covenant with God
very, very seriously.

554
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,679
And I loved my wife enough,
still love her this much to to

555
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:29,199
do everything in my power never
to hurt her ever.

556
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:34,080
So I made, I made excuses not to
go over there, right.

557
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,320
You know, it'd be one of those
things like, oh gosh, I wish I

558
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,800
could, but I got this thing over
here I got to go do and it's

559
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,560
going to take forever.
Sorry.

560
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,280
And I just made excuses not to
go.

561
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:51,679
And then Amber and Brenda were
also team teachers together in

562
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:53,800
Young women's.
I think maybe it was primary, I

563
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,400
can't remember.
But they were team teachers and

564
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,440
so it was nothing for me to come
home from work and see them

565
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,160
studying the scriptures
together, right?

566
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,600
So she was always around, but it
I just made excuses not to be

567
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:14,520
over there as much.
Things start getting crazy about

568
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,000
two months after that.
Now I had turned our five acres

569
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,560
almost into a park, had a great
big garden orchards, it was all

570
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,080
under sprinkler.
And I also built a really nice

571
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,320
area for hosting.
So we had a nice fire pit with,

572
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,360
you know, it was, it had pavers
on it.

573
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:37,040
It was really well put together.
And so Brenda's kids would come

574
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,880
over and we were roast hot dogs
and have s'mores and we would

575
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,080
talk into the night and the
girls were studying.

576
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,920
I think the Doctrine and
Covenants were getting, getting,

577
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,960
getting close to making that
jump and they were joking around

578
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,560
and like, oh, how are we going
to tackle 132?

579
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,520
And I I was like, I made the
comments like, man, that would

580
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,400
be so weird to have to live
that.

581
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,760
And Brenda said, you know what,
I got some family who are

582
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,360
independent fundamentalists and
there's actually a real sweet,

583
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,160
sweet spirit in their home.
And I just kind of was like,

584
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,120
look at the time, I got to go to
bed.

585
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,200
You girls continue talking.
I'll see you later.

586
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:22,520
Go to bed.
Hopefully put put it out of my

587
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:29,840
mind and not worry about it.
Three weeks after that, Amber

588
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,920
and I are getting ready for bed
and Amber, out of the blue just

589
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,920
says if plural marriage ever
came back, would you take Brenda

590
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,040
as a wife?
And are you a Star Wars fan,

591
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,480
Greg?
Unfortunately, I'm not.

592
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,160
There's a scene from one of the
movies where this guy goes, it's

593
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,800
a trap.
And that's exactly how I felt,

594
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:52,840
right?
I was being trapped.

595
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,080
Understand that feeling.
I can understand the feeling.

596
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,480
Yeah, I was like, you know what?
We don't have to worry about

597
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,320
that.
I'm not concerned with that.

598
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,040
Nothing wrong with Brenda, but
no, you know, we don't, we don't

599
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,320
need to talk about it.
And I just kind of went to bed

600
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,120
about a month after that.
I think I came home from doing a

601
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:20,600
survey and it was it was a rough
day.

602
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,080
I I remember that I was all
scratched up.

603
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,920
I had to cut through Russian
olives.

604
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,600
It was a rough, rough survey.
And I get home and have you ever

605
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,280
gotten home?
And you're like, I don't want to

606
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,080
talk.
I don't want to think.

607
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,600
All I want to do is sit down in
this chair and, you know, take a

608
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,080
shower, eat and sit in this
chair and not move.

609
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,040
Oh, absolutely.
In my current job I I work at a

610
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,320
homeless shelter currently, so.
So I definitely have days like

611
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,320
that where I come home and I
just want to decompress from the

612
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,520
day.
I go read some scriptures, I

613
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,800
make myself some dinner, but I
don't want to think about the

614
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,320
pressures of the day.
Is that what you're talking

615
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,680
about?
Exactly.

616
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,200
Exactly.
Well, I didn't get that far.

617
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,000
I came in and Brenda and Amber
were sitting at the at the table

618
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,360
reading scriptures and again, it
wasn't unusual, right?

619
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,760
They were team teachers and
Amber just says, David, come

620
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,160
here.
I got something I wanted to show

621
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,520
you and I'm like, sure.
And so she's in the Doctrine and

622
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,200
Covenants and she's like, what's
this one say?

623
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,040
And I'm like Verily, thus sayeth
the Lord.

624
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,760
She's like, OK, stop, stop.
She flips over to another one.

625
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,080
She's like, what's this one say?
And I'm like Verily, Verily,

626
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,600
thus sayeth the Lord.
And I start reading some more

627
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:33,720
and she's like, that's enough,
stop.

628
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,280
And we do this exercise probably
two or three more times, Greg.

629
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:46,880
And then finally she takes us to
the the manifesto and she said,

630
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:48,720
what's this say?
And I'm like to whom it may

631
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:53,760
concern And at this point like I
remember my gut got physically

632
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,880
tight, right?
I felt ill and she said, does

633
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,600
that sound like a revelation to
you?

634
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,200
And I had to admit it did not,
right.

635
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,280
It did not have the same feeling
of thus sayeth the Lord.

636
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,280
And she just basically said,
look, I love Brenda.

637
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:22,240
You know, I see her struggle
without a husband, and I want

638
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:24,240
her to have the blessings that I
have.

639
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:33,160
And she goes, you're a good man,
We should think about doing

640
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:38,960
this.
And I don't know what my face

641
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,680
looked like, but I could tell
you what I felt like, which was

642
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:47,480
I wanted to throw up, right.
Not because Brenda was ugly or

643
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,280
anything like that.
It was just, this is a big deal.

644
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:57,720
This is a huge deal.
And so I'm like, OK, let's have

645
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:01,280
a conversation here.
I was like, we have some

646
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:02,880
challenges in front of us,
right?

647
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,560
It's not like I can walk into
the Bishop tomorrow and go, hey

648
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,920
man, guess what?
I got great news, right?

649
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:14,480
This is not going to fly.
And so I'm like, let's all go

650
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,560
home.
Let's, you know, let's pray

651
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,720
about this, and let's give it a
week.

652
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:24,160
And I was like, 'cause I don't
have a confirmation of this one

653
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,320
way or another.
And so, I mean, I have never

654
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,880
prayed as hard as I prayed that
week.

655
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,320
I fasted like I had never fasted
before.

656
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,840
And I'm just asking, God, is
this your will?

657
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,880
Is this your will?
Is this what you want me to do?

658
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,680
And I'm reading 132, and I'm
reading church history, trying

659
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,320
to get a feel for what's
happening.

660
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,960
And one evening it just comes to
me.

661
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,240
I'll never forget it.
It was probably 1:00 in the

662
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:57,880
morning, and I went into our
orchard and I just said a

663
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,080
prayer.
And again, no miraculous

664
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,400
visions.
I don't want to say that and

665
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:08,400
nothing like that.
But I got an answer which was

666
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,640
yes, I have ordained you to be
in this spot.

667
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,080
And there is more I have yet to
teach you.

668
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:21,360
And in that moment I stood up
and I'm like, OK, so we meet

669
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,680
back together in a week.
I say OK, I I got.

670
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,320
I got the answer have have you
girls each got an answer.

671
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,160
And I was like to make sure that
nobody is fibbing to anyone

672
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,120
else.
Let's write it down.

673
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,880
Fold up a piece of paper and
then let's throw it in a hat.

674
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,280
And we do that.
I take it out and it's

675
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:45,480
unanimous.
Yes.

676
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,360
Right.
And I'm like, OK, now we have

677
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,320
another problem.
How are we going to get married,

678
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,160
right?
Because I don't want to just be

679
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,600
feeling like I'm having an
affair that my wife's OK with,

680
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,440
right?
It's it's very important to me

681
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:06,120
to do this right.
And again, I'm in.

682
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,480
I'm in Idaho, not exactly a
hotbed of activity in western

683
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,480
Idaho for fundamentalists.
The the people Brenda had told

684
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,240
me about her family, they had
passed away.

685
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:21,920
And so I'm just kind of floating
out there, right?

686
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,880
I don't know what to do.
And so I start scouring the

687
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:27,880
Internet for anything I can
find.

688
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,600
Anything.
And it took forever because we

689
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,320
were living in the country.
And it was just past dial up at

690
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,000
that point, right?
You weren't getting the annoying

691
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,240
sounds anymore, but it was still
very slow.

692
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,080
This back when you used to get
the AOLCDS.

693
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,520
Yeah.
Well, it's probably past that a

694
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,800
little bit, but not not by much,
right.

695
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,640
You're talking 2007.
Somewhere we're.

696
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,360
Talking Netscape.
Yeah, yeah, that's it.

697
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,560
So I start, I start scouring the
Internet for fundamentalist

698
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,920
groups and I I I do research
enough to go, yeah, I ain't

699
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,600
calling anyone in Colorado City.
That looks horrible.

700
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:14,160
I hear about the AUB, but
they're really hard to get a

701
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:20,480
hold of.
And so I end up finding a book

702
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:25,200
by Ogden Kraut that talks about
doing a solemn covenant until

703
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,400
you can find proper priesthood
authority.

704
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,560
And basically what happens is
that you have a ceremony with

705
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,600
the three of you just before God
and say you know commit to each

706
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,560
other and then you it's it's
kind of a placeholder until you

707
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,600
can find proper priesthood
authority, right.

708
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:49,080
So I start we we do that and we
start living as man and wife and

709
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,520
after that I just start tearing
in to finding fundamentalists

710
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,720
right.
I talked to Kevin quite a bit.

711
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,120
I I talked to some Lebarons.
I talk.

712
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,880
I I finally tracked down the
number to one group and I'm, I'm

713
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,880
not going to tell tell who it
is.

714
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,640
But looks like really promising,
right.

715
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,360
They're they're they're just in
Salt Lake somewhere and it looks

716
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:21,720
really, really promising And I
reach out to them takes a while

717
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,040
to get an answer.
Have a few discussions over

718
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,720
emails get some material to read
Start learning about Adam, God

719
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:31,760
and about, you know, really
learning about Adam God in depth

720
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:34,960
and a lot of other
fundamentalist principles.

721
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,800
And I said look man, I'm, I'm
sold.

722
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,720
What do I need to do?
And he said, well, probably next

723
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:45,560
thing is to have you come up to
Salt Lake and have an interview,

724
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,240
and then we'll go from there.
I'm like, sweet.

725
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:49,760
He's like, but first tell me
about your family situation.

726
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,080
I said, well, it's me and my
two, you know, me and my wife

727
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:54,920
Amber and me and my wife Brenda
and my kids.

728
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,360
And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, You're already living

729
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,000
plural marriage.
And I'm like, yes, Sir.

730
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:00,480
Yep.
And he's like, well, you're out

731
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,080
of order.
You've already violated your

732
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:09,720
covenants and we can't help you.
And so at that point, I was

733
00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:11,720
like, well, I'm trying to get an
order.

734
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,160
Can you help me out?
He's like, Nope, can't do it.

735
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,800
And that was it.
And so at that point, I just

736
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,240
remember I looked at both the
girls.

737
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:20,920
I'm like, I think we're on our
own out here.

738
00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:26,600
But we do as good of a job as we
could with what knowledge we

739
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,560
had, right?
I mean, for all intents and

740
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,760
purposes, we're a fully
functioning family.

741
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,440
We have dinners at night
together.

742
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,200
I alternate nights between
staying at Brenda's and staying

743
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,720
at Amber's.
We we become knit together as a

744
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:48,680
family.
And oh, I remember it was about

745
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:55,080
5-6 years after that, right?
Brenda's family now.

746
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,320
Brenda was a few years older
than than we were, but she had

747
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,640
family who were just upstanding
members of the Mormon community

748
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:09,200
where we lived.
And from my understanding, her

749
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,920
parents found out and kind of
said, look, you got to make a

750
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,800
decision.
And I was like, look, I've, I've

751
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,000
already moved from Maryland to
Maryland and back.

752
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,840
I don't have a part problem
pulling that trigger.

753
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,120
We'll leave.
We'll leave next week, right.

754
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,320
But I could tell she was still
hesitant.

755
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:34,320
So I said tell you what let's
pray about this and then let's

756
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:41,400
let's talk tomorrow night.
And she and and and I don't

757
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,520
blame her.
I don't hold any malice towards

758
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:44,720
her.
She had to do what she had to

759
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:45,600
do.
Right.

760
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,240
She, she basically, you know
said I can't imagine being

761
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:57,960
ostracized from my family and
the the marriage kind of broke

762
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,480
up.
Not kind of it.

763
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:05,160
It blew up.
And so, yeah, yeah, that's kind

764
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,880
of, that's kind of that.
And then I'm, I'm ashamed to

765
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:17,120
admit I hadn't drank in
probably, gosh, 13, almost 14

766
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,360
years by that point.
But as I prayed, just trying to

767
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,480
find solace, because I had no
one I could turn to, right,

768
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,160
Greg, it was just me.
And I didn't want to ever mourn

769
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,720
in front of Amber too much
because I didn't want to give

770
00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:34,040
her the feeling of you're not
enough, right.

771
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:35,880
I wanted to protect your heart
still.

772
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:41,240
So when I did most of my
morning, I did it and I just did

773
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:43,680
it on that, that that five acres
out there.

774
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,320
Brenda ended up moving away
really quick after that.

775
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:52,440
But because I didn't feel like I
was getting much solace from

776
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,960
God, I I was now looking back,
but I didn't feel it a whole

777
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,600
bunch.
Then I I kind of relapsed and I

778
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:02,040
I was like, well, if I'm not
getting the answers I want from

779
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,560
God, let's see what Captain
Morgan has to say about this.

780
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:09,440
Let's counsel with the captain.
And I remember, I remember one

781
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:15,160
night I was just, I was drunk, I
mean bad drunk.

782
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,000
And Amber came out on the patio
and I've been crying and it's

783
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,800
about midnight and she's like,
are you OK?

784
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,720
I'm like, I'm fine.
But I'm never doing this crap

785
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:25,200
again.
Only I didn't say crap.

786
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:27,640
I said I'm never doing this
again.

787
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:28,480
Ever.
Ever.

788
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,880
Never, ever.
We, we never got found out by

789
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,080
the LDS church.
I'm like, we're just going to

790
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,720
move, we're we'll probably move,
we'll find a ward to settle

791
00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:39,560
into.
And I'm going to forget

792
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,520
everything.
I knew everything.

793
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,640
And I remember she just kind of
put her, put her hands around

794
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,680
my, my, my, my face down by my
chin.

795
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,640
She just raised my my head up so
my gaze met her and I just

796
00:48:55,640 --> 00:49:00,200
remember she said, look, we've
been called to this, we've

797
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,160
learned so much and we can try
going back to the LDS Church.

798
00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:09,720
But if if we get called, we're
going to do this again because

799
00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:12,240
because we've been called is how
she put it.

800
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,400
And so end up moving to North
Dakota, live up there for a few

801
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:22,360
years, and then we end up moving
to Utah.

802
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:34,080
And while in Utah in this very
house that I'm at today, this

803
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:40,000
was right before the pandemic
and it was right after they made

804
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:44,840
the temple change where they got
rid of an A covenant that was

805
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,160
made between the man and wife in
the endowment.

806
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,560
And I was pissed.
I was pissed.

807
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,280
I was not happy about that.
But I thought, whatever, they

808
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,920
know what they're doing.
Let's just let this lie.

809
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:10,840
And so I one morning I just woke
up and I was in leadership in

810
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,320
this ward and I remember I was
shaving.

811
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,360
And now this was probably only
two or three months before

812
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,560
COVID.
But I'm shaving in the mirror.

813
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:24,800
It's around Thanksgiving and I'm
looking in the mirror and I'm

814
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:29,240
like, why am I so unhappy?
I'm attending the temple once a

815
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:31,080
week.
I'm paying my tithing.

816
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,480
I am fulfilling my calling.
I'm associating with, quote the

817
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,160
right people.
I'm going to leadership council.

818
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,480
What is wrong with me?
Why am I I got a great job.

819
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,160
I have a great wife.
Why am I feeling the way I'm

820
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,440
feeling?
Which was it wasn't like

821
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:51,280
everything's wrong.
It just didn't feel complete or

822
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:52,880
authentic.
Does that make sense?

823
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,440
Totally, absolutely.
And then I'm looking in the

824
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,320
mirror and as I ask the question
and it here's the weird thing,

825
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,640
Greg, it wasn't even really a
prayer, right?

826
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,800
It was just like a question to
myself.

827
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:09,880
But I got an answer in that
instant and it was you're not

828
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:14,560
being true to who you are, son,
I I showed you all these things

829
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,720
and you've tried to just forget
about them.

830
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:22,240
You can't forget about them when
you know you know and and you

831
00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:26,360
can't go back now it's like the.
Proverbial unringing of the

832
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,200
bell.
You can't unring that bell, can

833
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,560
you?
It's it's like when when Adam

834
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,880
and Eve take the fruit, there's
no one doing it.

835
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:35,640
You now have to contend with
this.

836
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:43,200
And so I was like, OK, so I
remember I I finished shave and

837
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,480
I walked.
I I go into the bedroom, have

838
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,200
the have the master bath there,
and I just look at Amber and I

839
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,400
said I'm done.
I'm done.

840
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,640
She's like, done with what?
I was like, I'm done going to

841
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,080
church.
And I explained to her what has

842
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,160
happened and I remember she
said, well, it's about damn

843
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,000
time.
It's about damn time 'cause I'm

844
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,680
done too.
And that Sunday I finish out my

845
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,440
meetings and then I book an
appointment with my sick

846
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,400
president or my Bishop 1st, and
I just say, look, you're going

847
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,400
to have to release me.
And he goes, oh, oh, brother,

848
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,080
brother Sanders are why?
Is something wrong?

849
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:22,800
I was like, yeah, something's
wrong.

850
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,440
And he's like, you just not have
enough time.

851
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,320
I'm like, no, I got time.
He's like, oh, let me guess, you

852
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,360
bumped into some old Mormon
literature.

853
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,480
I'm like, well, I've known about
that for a long time.

854
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,040
And actually I'm kind of cool
with that.

855
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,840
And he goes, I I know what it
is.

856
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,040
You're upset about the way the
church treats the LGBTQ

857
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,120
community.
And I'm like, no, that is not it

858
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,080
whatsoever.
In fact, I think you're getting

859
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,080
too close to that, to that.
And he's like, then what could

860
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,120
possibly be the problem?
And I just say, look, you've

861
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,280
crossed a bridge here.
You you've crossed the Rubicon.

862
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,960
You've you've altered the
ceremony to the point that I

863
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,000
think now you're entering the
the territory of your mocking

864
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:13,000
God.
And and he goes, what, what,

865
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,680
what?
Let's, let's have you talk to

866
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,280
the state president.
I'm like, fine.

867
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:22,680
Now the guy that I talked to who
was the state president, he was

868
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:30,480
the he's, he, he's one of the
very higher ups for Bonneville

869
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,920
communications.
And I remember I go in and I

870
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:36,360
just tell him, look here's my
issue.

871
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,120
These things are changing.
And I think we we are now in the

872
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:45,040
mode of mocking God.
And he says something that that

873
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:48,040
he said, well, how so?
And I explained to him about the

874
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,800
temple change and he's like, oh,
I can so answer this for you.

875
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:53,800
You're you're gonna feel so much
better after this.

876
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,400
I'm like, OK, yeah, hit me with
it.

877
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,520
And he said, well, you see, for
the first time ever in the

878
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,280
church, there's more single
people than married people.

879
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,320
And so that covenant's really
hard to keep if if you're not

880
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,040
married.
And I remember I was like,

881
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:11,160
that's not answering the
question.

882
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:15,360
I 'cause if if if people can't
walk up to that covenant, the

883
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,320
the answer is not to change the
covenant that God revealed.

884
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:22,080
The answer would be why aren't
is to ask the question why

885
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:23,560
aren't young people getting
married?

886
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:27,680
Exactly.
And I and I said, look, if if

887
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:31,480
people were having a hard time
with the law of chastity, would

888
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,880
you throw that out too?
This episode of the podcast is

889
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,040
brought to you by Deseret
flag.com.

890
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,280
I've said this before and I
really mean it.

891
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,920
Mormonism isn't just a religion,
it's a culture.

892
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,000
As such, it has its own
vernacular and practices, but

893
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,760
also its own symbols.
And those symbols become even

894
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,000
more important and prominent
when you look back into our

895
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,840
history.
Perhaps one of the most

896
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,760
recognizable symbols of
Mormonism is the Deseret flag.

897
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,360
This is the flag that I use as
cover art in this podcast.

898
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,800
This was also used for a good
chunk of time during the Pioneer

899
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,480
era in Utah.
Now today we have people who

900
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,480
want to replace the existing
Utah flag with some other

901
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,520
progressive monstrosity.
Well, I think it's damp past

902
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,200
time that we start pushing back
here a little bit in Utah.

903
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,280
Our friends at Defending Utah
are here to help you with that.

904
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,680
Now.
If you go to deseretflag.com,

905
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,400
you can now purchase your own
Deseret State flag.

906
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,000
It's time here that we start
making ourselves known and join

907
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,840
the resistance against those who
seek to rewrite our state's

908
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,320
history.
Go to deseretflag.com or check

909
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,960
out the link in this episode's
page, Show Notes and get yours

910
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:36,960
today.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

911
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,800
Renegade Podcast?
Well, good news, we're on

912
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,240
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

913
00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:44,440
from.
The first one, the Slightly

914
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,680
Rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

915
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:49,680
those pesky commercials getting
in the way.

916
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,760
For those who want a slightly
more in depth experience,

917
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,720
there's the Stirring It Up
package where you can hear ad

918
00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:58,720
free audio, AD free video and
transcripts.

919
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,600
Finally, for those who want to
go full Renegade, that package

920
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,240
is available too, where you can
get everything in the previous

921
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:09,320
two packages plus an extra show
where myself and Ben Winfield

922
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,440
breakdown the news of the day
from a very Mormon point of

923
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,520
view.
You will also get exclusive

924
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,280
access to Renegade chat and on
there you'll be able to talk to

925
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,760
others about the show or
whatever topics are on your

926
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,640
mind.
Go to Patreon today and get your

927
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,640
exclusive content.
And he goes, well, no, that's

928
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,600
that's different.
I mean, that's completely

929
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:30,600
different.
I was like, how so?

930
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:31,880
And you didn't have a good
answer.

931
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:33,840
And at that point I was just
like, yeah, we're done.

932
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:35,880
We're done.
I'm going to be cordial, but

933
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:37,960
we're not hugging it out on
Sundays anymore.

934
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,120
And that was it.
That's when that's that's kind

935
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,560
of how I got to be a
fundamentalist bully.

936
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:52,680
Wow, that's a fantastic story.
Now you have moved on since that

937
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,840
point to fully embracing
fundamentalism.

938
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,240
Now within fundamentalism, you
and I and every listener knows

939
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,400
there's a lot of branches, a lot
of sex, a lot of churches and

940
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:09,480
many independents who believe in
their own each brand of of

941
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,200
fundamentalism with each, you
know, branch or church having

942
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,120
their own take on faith and
practice.

943
00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:20,960
For you, David, what does it
mean to be a fundamentalist or

944
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,560
to have originalist orthodoxy in
Mormonism?

945
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:30,720
What does that look like to you?
So to me, when when we start

946
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:35,320
talking about orthodoxy, I think
that's going to look different

947
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,280
to a lot of people.
I mean, and and Independence,

948
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,600
they they will be a little bit
different, 'cause they're

949
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:45,640
largely family units right now.
They may come together and

950
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,720
worship at somebody's house or
whatever, but they're all gonna

951
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,400
be a little bit different.
And I don't think there's

952
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:56,640
anything wrong with that.
Personally, when when I think of

953
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:03,520
Orthodoxy, there's there's two
things, one is not throwing out

954
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,000
things that were called
essential, right?

955
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,960
Not throwing things out that the
Brethren, those early brethren,

956
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:16,320
Joseph Brigham, John Taylor
really talked about that that

957
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:18,000
were essential.
I think of plural marriage.

958
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,240
I think of Adam, God.
I think of of those kind of

959
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,800
things.
I don't want to say that that

960
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,120
that early leadership is
infallible either, right?

961
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,560
I just went through this
exercise.

962
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:33,400
I think a prophet can be wrong.
I mean, scripture bears that

963
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,320
out, right?
Jonah ran from God.

964
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,720
He had to be swallowed by a
whale before he came, correct.

965
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,520
Moses kills a man.
Just go down the list.

966
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:47,680
I don't, I don't think prophets
are infallible, but some of

967
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,760
their teachings are absolutely
heaven sent and you have to

968
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,040
abide by those.
The other thing I would say is

969
00:58:55,040 --> 00:59:00,800
priesthood and ordinances.
I do think that maybe the LDS

970
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,440
church had screwed up to a point
back in the 20s to, I want to

971
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:10,960
say, the early 50s, where they
stopped conferring priesthood

972
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,000
and started just ordaining
straight to an office.

973
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,320
They later corrected that, but
they never went back and

974
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,600
reordained every single person,
right?

975
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,720
So that makes me question
priesthood authority a little

976
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:27,440
bit within the mainstream
church, because the the

977
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,400
ordination wasn't taken care of
correctly so.

978
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:34,000
I found out very interesting
when I decided to get re

979
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,400
baptized.
I found out I had to get

980
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,640
baptized in the 1st place
because my my baptism when I was

981
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:46,400
a very young boy came after
1978, so there was no priesthood

982
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,480
authority essentially for my
baptism.

983
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,800
Right, right.
Yeah.

984
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,640
You know, look and and this is
where you and I will differ a

985
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,560
little bit because I do have a
bit of a nuanced view on the

986
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:00,200
priesthood ban.
Sure.

987
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:10,280
So I don't want to use 78 as the
absolute end all be all of of

988
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,440
they no longer had priesthood.
I think there were probably

989
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:18,000
still guys out there floating
around who had it, but so so

990
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:23,480
that was that was a concern.
Valid priesthood ordination and

991
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,440
valid authority and also valid
ordinance work because the

992
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,480
ordinances have been changed
over time.

993
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:34,480
So when we start talking about
orthodoxy, I tend to start at

994
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:38,080
the scriptures.
I go to Joseph and then Brigham

995
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,680
and John Taylor, and then down
to Joseph F Smith, and then

996
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,000
after that I figure everything's
pretty much toasted anyway.

997
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,200
Right.
Where do you go so kind of how I

998
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:53,240
how I rape Orthodoxy and and
that's kind of my weight of

999
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,280
sources if you were if you if
that makes.

1000
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:57,960
Sense.
Absolutely.

1001
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,160
And and you know, I've told you
before in our private

1002
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,880
discussions, you know, for for
me, fundamentalism, I always say

1003
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,480
just kind of my shtick is like
it's a broken pane of glass and

1004
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,520
it's someday going to have to be
melted back down and put back

1005
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,640
together.
I think my question that I

1006
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:19,160
wanted to ask you about this, do
you see a time when we're going

1007
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:23,440
to have a people of Zion that
can unite again under the truth

1008
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:28,000
and what does that look like?
OK.

1009
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:32,600
Didn't you say you had something
to do at 7:00?

1010
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:35,680
I do.
Let's let's let's break.

1011
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:41,280
Let's let let's pause this.
Let's pause and then come back

1012
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:43,400
and then let me answer that.
All right, cool.

1013
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,480
That's a, that's a great way to
think about a tough question.

1014
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:47,040
I'll be back in five or six
minutes.

1015
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,800
OK, David, I want to get a
little more in depth now.

1016
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:58,440
And in in our previous
conversations, I've always

1017
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,080
shared with you my view of
fundamentalism.

1018
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,720
We've talked about it and I've.
I've told you that I look at it

1019
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:09,720
like a broken pane of glass.
And someday, someday, somehow,

1020
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,680
that glass is going to have to
get melted back down and turn

1021
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,800
into a brand new, smooth,
beautiful sheet of glass.

1022
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,200
Now, if you take that parable
and and advance it, do you see a

1023
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,760
time when that can happen, when
we'll have possibly a people of

1024
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:28,120
Zion that can unite again under
the truth?

1025
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:31,520
That I know, that you know, that
we all know, even if it's a

1026
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:33,840
little bit shaded differently
for each of us.

1027
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,880
So when when we start talking
about something like a Zion,

1028
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:42,840
right.
And and then you follow that up

1029
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:48,720
with truth, you're you're now
going to start getting into some

1030
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:53,360
concrete definitions.
And so when when you say truth,

1031
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,040
explain that to me, is that your
truth?

1032
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,040
Is that the truth is let me
phrase that.

1033
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:01,880
Is that the truth as you
understand it?

1034
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:03,880
Is that the truth as I
understand it?

1035
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:08,160
Is that the truth as these
various groups and independence

1036
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:11,520
understand it?
I think, I think it's that all

1037
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:16,440
of the above and the truth,
we're all going to look at it in

1038
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:20,440
our own individual way.
Even if we're in a church, if

1039
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:23,040
we're in a group or we're
independent.

1040
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:27,120
I know some churches that
approach the teachings of their

1041
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:31,640
prophet or their president way
differently, and I'm speaking

1042
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:35,440
about some groups in Utah, then
say a different group up north,

1043
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,360
some folks down in southern to
central Utah who have a group.

1044
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:43,520
I know for a fact that they have
very many of the same beliefs as

1045
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,960
another church, but it's the way
that their prophet approached

1046
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,800
teaching it.
So they don't have a different

1047
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:53,160
reception, a different
understanding of the same

1048
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,280
truths.
And I I just wonder what it will

1049
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:00,520
take and what?
Is there going to be a time when

1050
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:03,640
we may have little differences,
we may have little

1051
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,600
misunderstandings?
I don't, I don't wanna say

1052
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:10,600
misunderstanding, but different,
different shades of the same

1053
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:14,800
beautiful truth.
So here, here's what I would say

1054
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:20,120
is that yes, I believe that will
happen and yes, that better

1055
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:24,400
start happening soon.
Now, all of these groups I feel

1056
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:26,840
like bring something to the
table, as well as the

1057
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:32,640
independence.
And I think at some point we're

1058
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:39,600
going to have to learn how to
work together where we can, as

1059
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:47,840
far as 'cause you run into this
problem of who's you know, as

1060
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:52,200
far as groups, who's their one
man, and how is that going to

1061
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:57,560
get sorted out?
When you start talking about

1062
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:02,280
that sort of thing about who the
man is, you're asking people to

1063
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:07,680
do something that I think is not
impossible, but it's definitely

1064
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,880
harder to do.
And on some level, I think we're

1065
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,360
going to have to start looking
beyond kind of the one man

1066
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:19,200
thing, right?
We're going to have to start

1067
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,680
looking for the one man as being
Jesus.

1068
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:29,240
I think if we can all put aside
our sacred cows to a certain

1069
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:32,360
extent and be willing to be
like, gosh, you know what, I'd

1070
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,320
never thought about it that way.
That guy might have a point,

1071
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:42,680
even though he doesn't subscribe
to to my one man or to what I

1072
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:46,520
held as an independent.
He's got a good point.

1073
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:51,760
So we have a ways to go I think
as a people being willing to to

1074
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:56,280
consider all aspects and then
coming to a place to where we

1075
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:01,880
can extract that all.
Now we also all have this

1076
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:07,800
predefined notion that that
we're all going to come in under

1077
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:12,280
1 banner and one guy and we're
all going to just get it done.

1078
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,520
And and the more I look the more
I think that may not be the

1079
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:18,520
case.
I think what you could have is a

1080
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:25,120
number of sects and independent
that work together on on common

1081
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:28,840
things.
To be honest with you, I think

1082
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:31,840
the model might look a little
bit like it does with some of

1083
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:33,720
the folks out in Missouri,
right.

1084
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:38,120
You have a settlement that has
some some folks from a a

1085
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:44,280
fundamentalist branch.
You have some folks who are just

1086
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:48,440
flat independence, right?
Everything from disaffected AUB

1087
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:53,800
to to some some lebarons.
And somehow they managed to come

1088
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,440
together and build a community
and a temple.

1089
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:00,360
And I think that's probably the
model that we're going to see

1090
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:04,640
when Zion comes about as as we
begin to work together.

1091
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:07,560
And then I imagine the Lord will
make his appearance at that

1092
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:11,960
point, and any errors in
doctrine will be sorted out at

1093
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:13,960
that time.
That's great.

1094
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:16,840
I was reading Doctrine Covens
today just about that very

1095
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:18,720
topic.
Fantastic.

1096
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:23,040
Now let's let's rip off that you
and your family took a trip to

1097
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:25,400
the Midwest recently and it was
the Illinois.

1098
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:29,680
And hurry, if I'm not mistaken,
how was that trip for you and

1099
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,360
your family spiritually?
Oh, it was awesome.

1100
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:39,400
So we we left Utah and we, my
youngest daughter went to stay

1101
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:44,200
with her oldest sister in North
Dakota, who's married and has a

1102
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:45,600
kid.
So my daughter went up there to

1103
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:47,400
stay with her for an extended
period.

1104
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,880
And then from North Dakota, we
we beelined it to Nauvoo.

1105
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:59,960
We we spent the day in Nauvoo
and then we went to Carthage and

1106
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:06,520
then we went to to Far West.
We went to Liberty Jail.

1107
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:11,840
We went to Adam and Diamond.
We were all over the place and

1108
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:16,680
it was really cool and a a big
testimony builder to both me and

1109
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:23,960
my family, my my my wives and
and a couple of my sons about

1110
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:30,600
just how fantastic it was and
how special of theology we have

1111
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:33,840
and it drove home the
truthfulness of these things.

1112
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:36,680
And there's one big take away I
had.

1113
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:41,640
Let me see if I can find it here
because I think it's really,

1114
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:49,399
really important and and this
was one of of my big takeaways

1115
01:08:49,399 --> 01:08:53,040
from that trip, let me see if I
can find it here.

1116
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:55,800
If you've got something you want
to add at this point that'd be

1117
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:57,200
great.
So it gives me time to well.

1118
01:08:57,399 --> 01:09:01,200
Actually, so you brought up the
kids and you know I are they

1119
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,240
being raised in the covenant?
And if so, I'm sure there's

1120
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:08,120
challenges in doing that given
the way the world really the

1121
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:11,640
outside world, not not our our
our beliefs and the way that we

1122
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,240
work with our families, but the
outside world can bring really

1123
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:18,960
ungodly influences to bear.
It's something like this where

1124
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:23,640
where you share it as a family
building that family

1125
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:27,319
relationship up.
Can you talk about that?

1126
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:31,359
Look, my four older kids don't
show much of A desire for it

1127
01:09:31,359 --> 01:09:35,040
right now.
My two younger ones tend to have

1128
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:36,840
a little bit more of a desire
for it.

1129
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:41,279
But Mormonism is unique in the
sense that you're going to have

1130
01:09:41,279 --> 01:09:43,439
to have your own conversion
experience, whether you've been

1131
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:46,840
raised with it or not.
And so they're they're still

1132
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:48,760
working that stuff out now I'm
hopeful.

1133
01:09:50,279 --> 01:09:54,320
And Greg, to be honest with you,
even if some of them don't, it

1134
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:57,200
doesn't mean I love them any
less or or anything else.

1135
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,640
It just means that we don't see
eye to eye on theology and

1136
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:04,720
that's OK.
But yeah, it it it can be tough.

1137
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:10,160
But I mean I I'm not a big
believer in just lock your kids

1138
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:11,640
up and shelter them from the
world.

1139
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,080
Right.
The Savior said let your light

1140
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:16,400
so shine right.
Be an example to others.

1141
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:23,240
If we lock our kids down and and
don't let them learn how to

1142
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:25,400
navigate the world, I don't
think we're doing a real good

1143
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:27,720
job for them.
We're setting them up to have

1144
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:32,800
their their beliefs challenged
in the worst possible way at the

1145
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:37,080
worst possible time without ever
having kind of that stage of

1146
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:40,120
immunization.
I guess right where you start to

1147
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:43,440
deal with these a little bit at
a time, and then your kids are

1148
01:10:43,440 --> 01:10:46,840
able to to learn over time how
to repel that.

1149
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:51,280
So yes, the world can be tough,
but they better learn to

1150
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:53,840
navigate it because I'm not
going to always be there either,

1151
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:55,320
right?
That's right.

1152
01:10:56,520 --> 01:11:00,360
Here is is what I I want to
point out to you, and this

1153
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:04,040
actually references your
previous questions about us all

1154
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:05,760
coming back together again a
little bit.

1155
01:11:06,440 --> 01:11:08,840
And this is from Joseph Smith
while he's in Nauvoo.

1156
01:11:10,480 --> 01:11:12,480
And he says the blessings of the
Most High.

1157
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:16,600
And and I saw this on it's a
plaque on a statue of Joseph and

1158
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:18,840
Hiram.
And it said, the blessings of

1159
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:22,640
the Most High will rest upon our
tabernacles, and our name will

1160
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:27,120
be handed down to future ages.
Our children will rise up and

1161
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:30,480
call us blessed.
And generations yet unborn will

1162
01:11:30,480 --> 01:11:34,560
dwell with peculiar delight upon
the scenes that we have passed

1163
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:38,320
through the provision, the the
privations that we have endured,

1164
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:43,920
the untiring zeal that we have
manifested, the insurmountable

1165
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:45,800
difficulties that we have
overcome.

1166
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,280
And laying the foundation,
that's important.

1167
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:52,320
The laying of the foundation of
a great work that brought about

1168
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:57,880
the the glory and blessings
which they will realize.

1169
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:02,400
A work that God and angels have
contemplated with delight for

1170
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:07,440
generations past, that fired the
souls of the ancient patriarch

1171
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:11,920
patriarchs and prophets.
A work that destined that is

1172
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:15,240
destined to bring about the
destructions of the powers of

1173
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:19,240
darkness, the renovation of the
earth and the glory of God and

1174
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:21,360
the salvation of the human
family.

1175
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:24,560
Now let me tell you why that
stuck out to me.

1176
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:29,080
It was that remark about laying
the foundations right.

1177
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:33,600
Joseph didn't say the house was
finished.

1178
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:36,240
What he said is we laid the
foundation.

1179
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:46,800
Now I think that because as I
see it, the church has gone off,

1180
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:51,360
you know, it has maybe gone off
the rails a little bit.

1181
01:12:51,480 --> 01:12:57,440
In my opinion, that has caused
us to build a house whose

1182
01:12:57,440 --> 01:13:02,480
foundations, whose the the, the
building footprint doesn't match

1183
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:05,920
the foundation.
And anytime you build something

1184
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:10,000
that's not on the foundation, it
is not structurally capable of

1185
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:15,960
bearing weight for very long.
And I think that we all have to

1186
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:21,320
come together and really be
honest, really do some honest

1187
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:27,120
searching and some honest prayer
to find out what that foundation

1188
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:30,720
looks like and then build upon
that.

1189
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,800
Because I think maybe all of our
found a maybe we all have a bit

1190
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:37,560
of that structure that is
hanging off the foundation a

1191
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:40,440
little bit.
So we got to bring it back to

1192
01:13:40,440 --> 01:13:43,360
the foundation we have to build
from the foundation up.

1193
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:49,440
So, so that was one major take
away there.

1194
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:50,720
Is there something you wanted to
add?

1195
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:54,640
No, I'm loving this story.
Keep on going.

1196
01:13:54,880 --> 01:14:03,800
The the other thing I saw that
really shot me was that was one

1197
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,960
statue and it had Joseph holding
an axe and Hiram was right

1198
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:12,480
beside him.
The other statue of Joseph and

1199
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:16,320
Hiram is is in front of the
Nauvoo Temple and they're

1200
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:23,200
they're facing the Mississippi,
but they're turning back to look

1201
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:26,520
at the Nauvoo Temple and I'm
going to butcher this and my

1202
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:28,160
phone died so I couldn't grab a
picture.

1203
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,120
I'm sure I could find it.
I just haven't had time.

1204
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:35,160
But the the what what Joseph
basically says is this is the

1205
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:39,840
best place in all the world and
this is the best people in all

1206
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:43,480
the world.
But they do not yet know what

1207
01:14:43,480 --> 01:14:48,600
lies in front of them.
And that got me thinking cause

1208
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:51,000
for a lot of years I just
assumed that he was talking

1209
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:53,720
about the trek West, right?
And then carving out an

1210
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:56,760
existence out of the desert.
Now certainly that could be part

1211
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:01,280
of it.
But what I find is, is that if

1212
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:05,240
it's just the trek West and just
carving out an existence, it

1213
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:08,680
doesn't make sense.
Because as you look at the at at

1214
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:12,880
the US government's own
statistics, if you were

1215
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:18,120
traveling on the Mormon Trail
going to Utah, you could expect

1216
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:22,520
that less than a percent of
those who made that trip were

1217
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:28,280
going to die versus like the
Oregon Trail, which had a 10%

1218
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,520
mortality rate.
So by all accounts, the Mormon

1219
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:36,400
Trail was wildly successful,
stupid, successful.

1220
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,680
I think that speaks to the
leadership of Brigham Young, his

1221
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:45,200
inspired role, and also just
what Mormonism can do,

1222
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:48,320
especially when you have God on
your side.

1223
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:51,640
Excuse me.
So I was like, OK then what's he

1224
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:54,840
talking about if it's not that?
And I think it's this day.

1225
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:59,720
I think this is what he's
talking about, where where the

1226
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:04,000
gospel isn't maybe preached in
its fullness in the the Mother

1227
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:08,120
Church.
And we have to start putting

1228
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:12,240
that back together and we have
to start correcting our

1229
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:14,040
structure to match the
foundation.

1230
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:21,080
Well, Speaking of foundations,
this podcast is, as I see it,

1231
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:25,280
one of the foundations being
laid to do exactly that.

1232
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:28,680
It's something also that my
brother and I are going to try

1233
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:31,440
to do with the the print
magazine, and there's a lot of

1234
01:16:31,440 --> 01:16:35,920
other people out there doing the
same thing in different ways.

1235
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:39,760
So let's talk about the podcast
You said to me, you've told me

1236
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,320
directly it's a calling.
Can you explain that?

1237
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:49,160
Yeah, so the podcast comes to me
about a year after.

1238
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:51,560
I'm like full-fledged
fundamentalist, right when I

1239
01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:57,760
when I tell the Bishop and state
president I'm out and I never

1240
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:01,520
sleep well in hotels, and I
really don't sleep well in

1241
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:03,360
hotels when I'm away from my
family.

1242
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:12,320
And I was, I had to go do a job
in West TX of all places and it

1243
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:18,040
was for a power substation and
so it was probably 3 days worth

1244
01:17:18,040 --> 01:17:22,440
of work.
And so I hid out there and on

1245
01:17:22,440 --> 01:17:25,040
the second night I'm just
tossing and turning.

1246
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:30,480
I can't get to sleep and and I
just kind of roll over and I

1247
01:17:30,480 --> 01:17:33,440
stare at the ceiling and I think
about how I got here right.

1248
01:17:33,440 --> 01:17:37,000
I basically go over in my head
the story I just told you about

1249
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:40,160
how I came to be a
fundamentalist and my entire

1250
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:48,960
journey in in Mormonism and I
just because because you know I

1251
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:52,040
tripped up a bunch trying to
find people I could learn from.

1252
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:58,760
It was it was hard and I
remember thinking man if there

1253
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:01,200
could just would have been
somebody around that could have

1254
01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:10,520
showed me the ropes.
And in that moment just a just a

1255
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:12,760
thought popped into my head not
my own.

1256
01:18:13,440 --> 01:18:17,800
Well, you could do something.
I'm like, well, maybe, but I'm

1257
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:19,920
so busy, I don't, I don't have
time.

1258
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:22,280
And it's like, how would I even
do that?

1259
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:25,440
And the first thought was, well,
you could do a blog.

1260
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:27,360
And I'm like, no, I suck at
writing.

1261
01:18:27,440 --> 01:18:29,680
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to make a blog.

1262
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:31,320
That's too much typing.
I'm not a fan.

1263
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:36,720
And so I go to sleep that night.
Next morning I wake up and it's

1264
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:40,120
still like the first thing after
I jump up off my knees from

1265
01:18:40,120 --> 01:18:43,840
saying my prayers is let's
explore this idea a little bit

1266
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:48,960
of figuring out a way to help
other people who are coming into

1267
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:57,040
fundamentalism.
And I think about all day and

1268
01:18:57,040 --> 01:18:59,880
I'm just not coming up with with
a lot of solutions.

1269
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:02,880
And that night again, I couldn't
sleep.

1270
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:06,560
And about 2:30 in the morning
the idea comes into my head

1271
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:12,320
about a podcast and I was like,
Nope, Nope, I you got the wrong

1272
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:16,000
guy one.
I've never done a podcast

1273
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:17,480
before.
I don't know what the hell I'm

1274
01:19:17,480 --> 01:19:20,360
doing.
You you got.

1275
01:19:20,480 --> 01:19:22,760
And furthermore, I'm just not
that smart about stuff.

1276
01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:27,640
And so I I kind of have this
argument with God the rest of

1277
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:31,320
the night where I'm just like
you got the wrong guy, bro.

1278
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:36,440
And not me not going to do it.
Get up that morning, start

1279
01:19:36,440 --> 01:19:39,040
getting my stuff ready because I
was flying out about 11:00 AM

1280
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:45,800
back to Salt Lake and I'm
arguing with God the whole way,

1281
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:49,760
all the way to the airport.
The whole time I'm sitting and

1282
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:51,840
waiting for my flight.
I'm just arguing.

1283
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:55,480
No, I've given him a ton of
reasons why he's got the wrong

1284
01:19:55,480 --> 01:20:00,480
guy, and in some respects I
still feel like he has the wrong

1285
01:20:00,480 --> 01:20:03,560
guy.
But I I I'm like, no, I I I

1286
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:04,920
can't do it.
I don't know how to do a

1287
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:08,920
podcast, and little things would
pop into my head like, well, do

1288
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:11,160
you think no one and Nephi knew
how to build a ship?

1289
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:18,000
Do you think that that you know
that Joseph knew how to run a

1290
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:20,520
church?
Not that I'd ever compare myself

1291
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:24,040
to any of those men, but those
were the words that kind of kept

1292
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:28,240
creeping in.
So I have this argument and I

1293
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:31,120
get on the plane and about
halfway through my flight, I'm

1294
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:34,600
like, fine, fine, this is what
you want.

1295
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:37,080
I'll do it.
But let me sleep.

1296
01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:40,280
Let me just finish off this,
this flight in peace and let me

1297
01:20:40,280 --> 01:20:42,440
sleep.
So I touched down.

1298
01:20:42,440 --> 01:20:44,920
I had one layover in, like,
Minneapolis.

1299
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:49,280
And then my flight, I catch my
connector, I get to Salt Lake,

1300
01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:52,120
and it's about 5:00 in the
evening.

1301
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:58,000
I get back to Orem and I swing
into Best Buy and I grab a

1302
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:00,080
couple of microphones and a
laptop.

1303
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:04,720
And I come walking in and my, I
give my wife a kiss and she's

1304
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:06,440
like, well, what's what?
What are those?

1305
01:21:06,440 --> 01:21:07,760
And I tell her what I'm going to
do.

1306
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:11,120
And she was just kind of like,
well, you've had worse ideas.

1307
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:15,600
And that was it.
I watched a couple videos about

1308
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,640
how how to podcast.
I bought some software,

1309
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:22,960
everything I could afford.
And then I just, I just went for

1310
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:28,000
it.
I just started reaching out to

1311
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:31,040
people that I, you know, I
thought were would be

1312
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:36,120
interesting to talk to and
started off with Adam.

1313
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:38,120
God, right.
And that was it.

1314
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:43,120
And then so yeah, I I I do feel
it's a calling from God.

1315
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:46,760
And because it's a calling from
God that I didn't get from a

1316
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:49,800
man, I I'm pretty tenacious in
guarding it.

1317
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:53,080
I'm careful about who I bring
on.

1318
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:57,600
I I try to vet everybody as much
as I can.

1319
01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:01,360
I I do the best I can to produce
the best sounding audio.

1320
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:06,440
It doesn't always work out, but
yeah, I try really hard because

1321
01:22:06,440 --> 01:22:10,240
it's it's not mine, it's it's a
calling that I have.

1322
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:15,680
Absolutely.
So David, I guess one more kind

1323
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:19,560
of big tough question and we can
lighten it up as we we head out

1324
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:22,920
of the second hour.
And this kind of speaks to what

1325
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:27,720
you were telling us earlier
about the way that you met and

1326
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:32,040
and courted and and covenanted
with your your first second

1327
01:22:32,040 --> 01:22:34,920
wife.
And I guess the question is this

1328
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:38,240
is that for many people who are,
I guess many people who are new

1329
01:22:38,240 --> 01:22:42,520
to fundamentalism are new.
And I'm talking about people who

1330
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:45,600
like coming out of the church,
don't know much about polygamy,

1331
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:49,520
but are they're new to the
concept of multiple plural

1332
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:50,840
wives.
So.

1333
01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:54,360
And the best advice you could
give to somebody, what's the

1334
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:58,360
best way of handling a situation
like that when the introduction,

1335
01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:01,520
the love, the attraction to a
new sister wife occurs?

1336
01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:03,480
And I mean, how do you broach
things like that?

1337
01:23:03,480 --> 01:23:08,000
How do you smooth things out in
terms of the relationship with

1338
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:09,680
your first wife in that
arrangement?

1339
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:16,440
What can you say to that?
Well, First off, I'm going to

1340
01:23:16,440 --> 01:23:19,520
say this.
That might be as unique as

1341
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:21,560
families are.
I'm not sure.

1342
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:25,560
There's one prescribed way.
I'll tell you how it worked with

1343
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:29,280
me and tell you how it's turning
out so far.

1344
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:36,160
When when Tanya came into the
family, it was, it was pretty

1345
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:39,440
easy to be honest with you.
Now I know some people are going

1346
01:23:39,440 --> 01:23:41,280
to scoff at that, but let me
explain.

1347
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:50,640
So when when Brenda first left,
there was a moment at which we

1348
01:23:50,640 --> 01:23:53,960
maybe thought, well, maybe we
should just hop right back in,

1349
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:55,640
right?
Maybe we should just continue

1350
01:23:55,640 --> 01:24:00,240
this thing.
And now what I think was a

1351
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:03,000
mistake because I was still
hurting and because I was

1352
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:06,880
hurting, there was this kind of
panic that set in, and I felt

1353
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:10,520
like I I had to justify what I
had done by making sure I kept

1354
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:17,480
doing it.
And so Amber had met Tanya on a

1355
01:24:17,480 --> 01:24:20,920
site and they struck up a really
good friendship.

1356
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:28,600
I struck up a good friendship
with Tanya and eventually I just

1357
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:31,080
had to say, look after that
night on the porch.

1358
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:35,280
I'm not ready.
Not sure I'll ever be ready

1359
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:40,000
after this experience.
We should probably tap the

1360
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:46,680
brakes.
And but her and Amber would

1361
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:49,040
still just check in
periodically, right?

1362
01:24:49,480 --> 01:24:51,960
Every so many years.
Now this was like 10 years ago,

1363
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:56,800
but throughout that 10 years it
was just always kind of like,

1364
01:24:56,880 --> 01:25:01,840
you know, her and Amber would
talk a little while and then one

1365
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:04,840
night I had just wrapped up a
podcast.

1366
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:09,800
Actually, Tanya had heard the
podcast and messaged Amber and

1367
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:15,320
said sounds like David's busy
and Amber kind of her and Amber

1368
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:17,640
kind of talked.
And then it was one night after

1369
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:22,400
a podcast I had finished up.
After I finished up a podcast, I

1370
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:25,440
gotta wait for the audio to
process down to something I can

1371
01:25:25,440 --> 01:25:32,160
work with.
And Amber knocked on the door

1372
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:34,360
and I said, Yep, I'm done come
on in.

1373
01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:38,760
And and she came in and she just
set a phone number down in front

1374
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:40,840
of me and I'm like, well, what's
this?

1375
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:42,880
And she said that's Tanya's
number.

1376
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:47,480
What are we waiting for now?
What are we waiting for?

1377
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:51,720
Yours is about as public as it's
going to get do it.

1378
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:55,760
And so at that point, Tanya and
I struck things back up and it

1379
01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:57,680
progressed really quickly at
that point.

1380
01:25:57,680 --> 01:26:01,160
But keep in mind, we were in
touch off and on for 10 years.

1381
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:07,200
Now let me say this, right?
And I want to be careful because

1382
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:09,880
I don't want to make this sound
like a generalization.

1383
01:26:10,480 --> 01:26:14,360
This is just one guy's opinion
and one guy's opinion alone.

1384
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:20,960
Because Amber and Tanya get a
wealth, get along very, very

1385
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:22,280
well.
They're they're the best of

1386
01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:27,360
friends.
That helps to create a very

1387
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:29,120
harmonious feeling within the
home.

1388
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:35,400
So if if someone was to come ask
me and again, I'm not the

1389
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:40,320
authority, I don't want anyone
to think I'm the authority, but

1390
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:43,280
I would say involve your first
wife as quickly as possible.

1391
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:51,800
Because it's more than just you
that the prospective new wife

1392
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:54,280
will be marrying, right.
She'll be marrying into an

1393
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:57,400
existing family.
And even if that's just a

1394
01:26:57,400 --> 01:27:01,920
couple.
So there there needs, there

1395
01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:06,600
needs to be some vetting done by
the sisters as well and because

1396
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:11,680
Amber and Tanya get along so
well it it makes my life so rich

1397
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:18,840
and so blessed and so peaceful.
Now obviously that's not the

1398
01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:24,640
case all the time for for for
others and I get that and so

1399
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:27,120
they're going to have to
navigate that the best they can.

1400
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:30,240
But, but that would be, you
know, if if I had a son that

1401
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:32,760
came to me and said dad, I think
this is something I want to do,

1402
01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:36,320
that would be my first thing I
tell him is involve your involve

1403
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:40,640
your wife as quickly as possible
because if she doesn't have buy

1404
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:43,160
in, I think it's going to be
really tough.

1405
01:27:43,160 --> 01:27:45,960
That's just my opinion.
I'm not preaching gospel here.

1406
01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:48,760
I know that.
I I know that that a lot of

1407
01:27:48,760 --> 01:27:54,600
people have a different, have a
different experience in mind and

1408
01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:57,120
they still make it work.
I'm just telling you what what

1409
01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:00,360
my experience has been so far.
That's why we're interviewing

1410
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:03,200
you, David.
Great, great answer.

1411
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:06,280
So let's lighten it up a little
bit, even though it's still

1412
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:10,160
going to be doctoral.
If if I was to just be sitting

1413
01:28:10,160 --> 01:28:13,640
with you one day and be like
David, you know on a rough day,

1414
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:14,960
you got your scriptures with
you.

1415
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:19,040
Is there is there a go to
scripture that you have on any

1416
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:21,160
given day that just fills your
heart with joy?

1417
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:29,600
Probably third Nephi 17.
Why is that?

1418
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:32,400
The whole chapter.
So the whole chapter.

1419
01:28:34,160 --> 01:28:38,120
The whole chapter.
I think that it might be one of

1420
01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:44,480
the most revealing chapters
about who the Savior really is

1421
01:28:48,040 --> 01:28:53,840
In 3rd in in in 3rd Nephi 17.
This is after the Jesus has been

1422
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:56,040
been with the people for a
little while right?

1423
01:28:56,480 --> 01:28:59,920
It's ascend.
He's ascended out of the sky he

1424
01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:02,960
he's taught him a little bit and
and then he says you know what,

1425
01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:06,280
I I, I feel like you guys are
getting a little tired.

1426
01:29:06,680 --> 01:29:12,440
Go to your homes, talk about
these things and and then

1427
01:29:12,440 --> 01:29:14,360
tomorrow when I come, we'll
there'll be more.

1428
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:17,600
And he looks out on the
multitude and he finds them

1429
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:20,880
crying.
And because it is a whole

1430
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:22,840
chapter, I'm not going to try to
read it here.

1431
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:31,920
But he sees that they're crying
and then he begins to weep.

1432
01:29:32,840 --> 01:29:37,240
And he says, you know what?
Bring me all, you're sick, all

1433
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:39,280
you're injured.
Bring them to me.

1434
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:41,200
I'm going to heal them right
now.

1435
01:29:42,440 --> 01:29:44,440
And he heals them in front of
everybody.

1436
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:47,320
And then he prays for the
people.

1437
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:52,960
And then he says, bring me all
of your little children.

1438
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:57,800
Bring them all to me.
And in that moment they're

1439
01:29:57,800 --> 01:30:01,920
encircled about with angels and
and the Scripture describes it

1440
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:05,840
as being circled about as in the
midst of fire.

1441
01:30:05,960 --> 01:30:11,920
And angels minister to these
children at the end of the day

1442
01:30:12,480 --> 01:30:17,280
when when all cards are on the
table and you're thinking about

1443
01:30:17,960 --> 01:30:20,760
who the Savior is, I think
that's who he is most.

1444
01:30:20,760 --> 01:30:26,760
Most of all, he wants nothing
more than to bless us with the

1445
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:28,840
the righteous desires of our
hearts.

1446
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:33,440
And oftentimes it's our own
weakness that gets in the way of

1447
01:30:33,440 --> 01:30:36,360
of those kind of divine
manifestations.

1448
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:42,000
I love the temple, right?
It's not actually scripture as

1449
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:44,680
we would think about it, but it
absolutely is scripture.

1450
01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:49,480
I love the temple and the
Genesis account where Eve is.

1451
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:54,240
Adam and Eve have partaken of
the fruit and they're hiding

1452
01:30:54,240 --> 01:31:00,040
from God.
And the thing that I find most

1453
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:04,360
moving is that it's Adam's God
that is seeking after him.

1454
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:08,560
God isn't passive in our lives
when we screw up.

1455
01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:10,800
It's not like, well, you screwed
up.

1456
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:12,880
I guess I'll just wait for you
to come back now.

1457
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:16,520
Certainly it has to be our own
will and we do have to take that

1458
01:31:16,520 --> 01:31:20,560
first step.
But I believe God, because he

1459
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:24,000
loves his children, is out there
seeking after us.

1460
01:31:24,440 --> 01:31:29,240
Even when we mess up, even when
we've transgressed, he's still

1461
01:31:29,240 --> 01:31:34,920
seeking for us.
And I think that that there'll

1462
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:37,880
be people that are placed in
your way or circumstances that

1463
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:41,600
will make you remember things.
And and so those are the two

1464
01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:46,040
things that did I go to a lot as
I as I struggle with things, as

1465
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:48,520
I as I try to make sense of
things.

1466
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:54,440
Just remembering that there's a
Savior and a Eternal Father

1467
01:31:54,920 --> 01:31:58,960
who's both the the Father of our
spirits as well as our bodies,

1468
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:03,680
that that is active in seeking
us out and no matter what

1469
01:32:03,680 --> 01:32:06,560
condition we are, He loves us
that much.

1470
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:15,520
That is, that is beautiful.
Now one thing I know about this

1471
01:32:15,520 --> 01:32:22,360
podcast and and one thing I know
about my own endeavor with Chad

1472
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:26,480
over at The Fundamentalist is we
aren't necessarily at all

1473
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:31,040
preaching to the converted.
There are many mainstream

1474
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:36,080
Mormons and even non Mormons who
are going to hear your words in

1475
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:39,920
all of your shows and they're
going to read our magazine or

1476
01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:43,480
find things in an Ogden Kraut
book and are going to go from

1477
01:32:43,480 --> 01:32:45,040
there.
That's how I started.

1478
01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:53,160
For those out there who aren't
fundamentalists yet, what's your

1479
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:54,800
advice?
What should they listen to?

1480
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:56,800
What should they seek if they're
seeking?

1481
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:04,280
Oh, well, the first thing I tell
someone is because and and and

1482
01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:07,200
this is only because one.
I experienced it.

1483
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:12,840
Now, my experience is a little
different, but I think some of

1484
01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:15,320
the feelings are the same.
And this comes from some other

1485
01:33:15,320 --> 01:33:17,400
people I know who've come out of
the LDS Church.

1486
01:33:19,080 --> 01:33:23,120
There's a sense of panic that
creeps in when someone who's

1487
01:33:23,120 --> 01:33:26,160
been raised with a certain
narrative their whole life finds

1488
01:33:26,160 --> 01:33:30,160
out that that narrative might
not be the narrative that's

1489
01:33:30,160 --> 01:33:34,560
correct or truthful.
There's a sense of panic that

1490
01:33:34,560 --> 01:33:43,280
creeps in, and in that panic we
can do foolish things and we

1491
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:46,880
must be careful in that time.
So the first thing I would say

1492
01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:50,000
is just breathe.
Just catch your breath.

1493
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:53,160
It's OK.
God still exists.

1494
01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:55,560
God is still sat in Yonder
heavens.

1495
01:33:55,960 --> 01:33:59,960
That has not changed.
Don't throw the baby out with

1496
01:33:59,960 --> 01:34:02,920
the bathwater.
Just because you think that you

1497
01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:08,960
haven't received the things that
that you feel like might be true

1498
01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:12,040
doesn't mean that the whole
gospel is not true.

1499
01:34:12,760 --> 01:34:15,680
It just means that your
understanding hasn't been

1500
01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:19,320
completely enlightened yet.
Mine hasn't been completely

1501
01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:24,440
enlightened yet.
But I would say just breathe.

1502
01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:28,120
Next, reach out to reputable
sources.

1503
01:34:28,120 --> 01:34:32,560
If there's one thing my hope is
for the podcast, it's that it

1504
01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:36,720
can be a place people can go to
get truth.

1505
01:34:37,040 --> 01:34:40,480
Now there's a lot of conjecture
and a lot of opinion that are

1506
01:34:40,480 --> 01:34:43,400
also on my podcast, both from me
and my guests.

1507
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:47,000
But my guests are way smarter
and the truth is on the

1508
01:34:47,000 --> 01:34:52,160
important things they usually
agree on 99.5% of them.

1509
01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:58,600
OK, next I would say this.
Do your homework right.

1510
01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:01,680
I look, I'll help anybody any
way I can.

1511
01:35:01,840 --> 01:35:04,440
We'll find a place for you to
be, if that's what you need.

1512
01:35:04,440 --> 01:35:07,720
If you need to figure out how to
be an independent, I know great

1513
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:11,440
independents who can help you
help you navigate those waters.

1514
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:15,000
If you feel like you should be
long be be a part of a group.

1515
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:18,360
I know several groups who I
think are absolutely fantastic

1516
01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:24,400
folks who would welcome you with
open arms but do not throw the

1517
01:35:24,400 --> 01:35:26,560
baby out with the bathwater.
So don't panic.

1518
01:35:27,080 --> 01:35:30,280
Don't freak out.
Seek reputable sources.

1519
01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:33,720
I I I would have no problem
sending someone to to you and

1520
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:38,560
Chad to to help them investigate
things and know that I'm I'm not

1521
01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:40,280
your Bishop.
I'm not your stake president.

1522
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:41,880
I'm not here to tell you where
to go.

1523
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:47,080
I can point you to options and
and that's that's what I would

1524
01:35:47,080 --> 01:35:49,200
say.
No, you have options.

1525
01:35:49,440 --> 01:35:51,960
Fundamentalism does not come in
one flavor.

1526
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:58,480
It it, it's got a variety to it.
It absolutely does.

1527
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:02,800
And so you need to be prayerful
in figuring out where it is you

1528
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:04,280
and your family are supposed to
go.

1529
01:36:04,840 --> 01:36:10,480
And don't just look at it either
in terms of I'm going there to

1530
01:36:10,480 --> 01:36:14,000
be ministered to more.
More than likely there's someone

1531
01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:16,560
there that you're supposed to
minister to as well.

1532
01:36:16,560 --> 01:36:20,800
Don't sell yourself short, like
bring a wealth of experience

1533
01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:24,440
when you enter fundamentalism.
And there's a way to even have

1534
01:36:24,440 --> 01:36:26,120
fellowship if you're an
independent.

1535
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:27,960
Don't think you have to be
isolated.

1536
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:32,440
Bad things happen in isolation.
I would say stay away from

1537
01:36:32,440 --> 01:36:34,080
Warren Jeffs with everything in
you.

1538
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:35,320
I don't.
I.

1539
01:36:35,640 --> 01:36:38,640
Would not disagree with you.
I I don't think you're going to

1540
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:42,920
find a whole bunch there, maybe
some heartache, but I think I

1541
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:47,040
think most fundamentalist and
most fundamentalist groups are

1542
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:49,600
are doing the best they can with
what they got.

1543
01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:55,280
In the defense of Colorado City,
I will say I I'm in contact with

1544
01:36:55,280 --> 01:36:57,240
folks there, a lot of folks
there.

1545
01:36:57,480 --> 01:37:00,520
There are some good things
happening in Short Creek right

1546
01:37:00,520 --> 01:37:02,840
now.
It's not happening for the whole

1547
01:37:02,840 --> 01:37:07,160
church or for everybody there.
But there are good things

1548
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:11,640
happening.
There are faithful believers

1549
01:37:11,640 --> 01:37:18,880
there that are doing it right.
Right as being outside of

1550
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:20,040
Warren.
Just purview.

1551
01:37:21,040 --> 01:37:24,120
As not being a Warren Knight,
they they would still consider

1552
01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:30,360
themselves culturally FLDS.
They are not, of course, in

1553
01:37:30,360 --> 01:37:33,480
Centennial Park or Second
Warders, but they're definitely

1554
01:37:33,480 --> 01:37:35,560
not Warrenites.
Truly.

1555
01:37:35,560 --> 01:37:39,200
There will always be FLDS and
they will always be

1556
01:37:39,200 --> 01:37:43,120
fundamentalists and they have a
a large group of people there.

1557
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:46,520
But there are good things
happening outside the purview of

1558
01:37:46,520 --> 01:37:48,400
Warren Jeffs or any of his
brothers.

1559
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:51,880
That's what I say is probably
stay away from the Jeffs, right?

1560
01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:52,600
That's.
Right that.

1561
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:56,520
Would be my one, my one thing
and like I said, I'm always

1562
01:37:56,520 --> 01:37:58,120
here.
I always return the emails.

1563
01:37:58,160 --> 01:38:01,360
It may take me a a week or so
because I get a lot of emails,

1564
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:05,080
but I'll I'll definitely get
back with people I always have.

1565
01:38:06,200 --> 01:38:08,520
And that's one of the things I
noticed about you from the very

1566
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:12,360
beginning and like you just
said, 99.95%.

1567
01:38:12,560 --> 01:38:16,880
You and I, in our discussions
about everything wide-ranging

1568
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:21,240
things from from just day-to-day
life to some deep doctrine.

1569
01:38:21,440 --> 01:38:25,640
You and I have found that
there's 99.95% similarity.

1570
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:28,560
There's that .05%.
Yeah, that there's going to be a

1571
01:38:28,560 --> 01:38:31,840
difference, but that's OK.
That's the beautiful part of all

1572
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:36,960
this, is that .05% doesn't
amount to a hill of beans when

1573
01:38:36,960 --> 01:38:40,080
we understand that we have more
in common than we have

1574
01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:42,920
differences.
You know, I'm, I'm going to

1575
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:45,840
share something else here and
and this goes back I think to

1576
01:38:45,840 --> 01:38:50,840
your Zion question a little bit
and it kind of ties in with

1577
01:38:50,840 --> 01:38:54,200
this.
The podcast has given me

1578
01:38:54,200 --> 01:38:56,840
tremendous hope.
I'll I'll be honest with you

1579
01:38:56,840 --> 01:39:00,280
because when I first started it,
I wasn't too hopeful that we

1580
01:39:00,280 --> 01:39:05,200
could, we could work that, that
various groups and various

1581
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:07,240
independents could work together
on things.

1582
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:11,800
The podcast has shown me that
that's absolutely not the case,

1583
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:15,520
that there are people willing to
work with each other.

1584
01:39:16,320 --> 01:39:22,320
And I remember after it was
about December of last year, I

1585
01:39:22,320 --> 01:39:24,560
kind of released all the
episodes I was going to release

1586
01:39:24,560 --> 01:39:27,920
for the rest of the year.
And I'm like OK, shouldn't say I

1587
01:39:27,920 --> 01:39:30,080
had them released.
I just had them processed and

1588
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:33,400
ready and I had about a two week
period where I could shut it

1589
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:35,680
down, be between Christmas and
New Year's.

1590
01:39:36,520 --> 01:39:41,840
And I just remember I leaned
back in my chair and this

1591
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:47,760
thought just out of the blue
came to me, which was this.

1592
01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:51,640
If there's one thing I know
about God, it's that he loves a

1593
01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:58,400
dramatic ending and I get
goosebumps again thinking about

1594
01:39:58,400 --> 01:40:00,200
this.
It was such a surreal

1595
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:04,200
experience, but yet so tangible
in that moment.

1596
01:40:05,240 --> 01:40:09,320
I was, I was thinking, yeah, God
really loves a dramatic ending.

1597
01:40:09,320 --> 01:40:12,960
I wonder how all this is going
to shake out with all these

1598
01:40:13,000 --> 01:40:18,400
various fundamentalists.
And if there's one thing I know

1599
01:40:18,400 --> 01:40:20,320
about God, say he loves a
dramatic ending.

1600
01:40:20,320 --> 01:40:22,840
If there's one thing I know
about evil, it's it.

1601
01:40:22,920 --> 01:40:27,040
Evil always overplays its hand.
Always.

1602
01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:31,520
And I believe we're about to go
through some really rough,

1603
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:37,880
challenging times, times that I
don't think we're fully ready

1604
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:40,320
for, I'm not sure we could ever
be fully ready for.

1605
01:40:41,200 --> 01:40:43,040
And they're going to be times
that try us.

1606
01:40:43,160 --> 01:40:45,960
And there's going to come a
moment, Greg, and I firmly

1607
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:49,720
believe this with everything in
me, that it's going to look bad,

1608
01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:54,960
it's going to look really bad.
And in that moment where it

1609
01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:58,720
looks like evil's going to win,
God is just going to say, OK,

1610
01:40:58,720 --> 01:41:03,600
everybody stand up where you are
now and it won't have to be

1611
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:07,440
coordinated through anybody.
We'll just hear the call and

1612
01:41:07,440 --> 01:41:10,680
we'll all stand up.
And in that moment, evil will

1613
01:41:10,680 --> 01:41:14,840
have one of the worst, oh crap
moments it has ever had because

1614
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:16,800
it's going to realize it's now
surrounded.

1615
01:41:19,840 --> 01:41:23,440
I believe that fully.
I believe that the Lord's not

1616
01:41:23,440 --> 01:41:27,160
done with this people.
I believe that there's many good

1617
01:41:27,160 --> 01:41:30,920
people out there who are
fulfilling their role the best

1618
01:41:30,920 --> 01:41:34,000
they know how, with the
information that God has given

1619
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:35,760
them, and that's all any of us
can do.

1620
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:40,440
So you just got to do your part,
whatever your part is, and then

1621
01:41:40,440 --> 01:41:42,640
when God tells you to stand,
just stand.

1622
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:46,240
Stand right where he told you to
stand, and he'll take it from

1623
01:41:46,240 --> 01:41:47,800
there.
But we've all got to do our

1624
01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:51,880
part.
I couldn't agree more.

1625
01:41:52,240 --> 01:41:55,400
That brings me to this is, and
you know, I'm a journalist, so

1626
01:41:55,400 --> 01:41:58,200
it's always my final question of
the night of the day.

1627
01:41:58,200 --> 01:42:01,920
Whenever I'm doing a story, I'd
always ask this question as the

1628
01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:04,120
very end.
Is there anything that I've

1629
01:42:04,120 --> 01:42:06,280
missed that you want folks to
know about?

1630
01:42:08,720 --> 01:42:11,600
I don't think so.
Just know that I'm nobody's

1631
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:14,840
nobody's authority.
That would be the one thing I

1632
01:42:14,840 --> 01:42:16,840
say.
Whatever I say, take it with a

1633
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:19,320
grain of salt, because I'm as
fallible as the next man.

1634
01:42:19,920 --> 01:42:21,880
So.
Yeah, absolutely.

1635
01:42:21,880 --> 01:42:24,920
And and that's something I think
I was, I was talking to some

1636
01:42:24,920 --> 01:42:30,160
missionaries from one of the
groups the other day and you

1637
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:33,720
know we were being, they were
being clear about the fact that

1638
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:36,760
when a prophet speaks as a as a
prophet, we're talking about a

1639
01:42:36,760 --> 01:42:38,080
prophet.
We're not talking about Dave

1640
01:42:38,080 --> 01:42:41,960
Sanders When a prophet speaks as
a prophet, well, by all means

1641
01:42:41,960 --> 01:42:44,320
he's a prophet.
But when he doesn't have the

1642
01:42:44,320 --> 01:42:47,200
mantle of prophet hanging over
him in a given moment, he speaks

1643
01:42:47,200 --> 01:42:49,760
as a man.
And I think if more people

1644
01:42:49,760 --> 01:42:55,160
realize that and gave that kind
of grace to the men who lead our

1645
01:42:55,160 --> 01:42:57,040
groups, I think we'd be a lot
better off.

1646
01:42:57,040 --> 01:43:01,240
And I think a lot of us would be
able to deal with some of the

1647
01:43:01,240 --> 01:43:03,000
shortcomings that every man has.
Look.

1648
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:09,600
I I maintain this It is not fair
to us as people to expect

1649
01:43:10,480 --> 01:43:14,000
leaders to be perfect.
It's not fair to us because

1650
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,000
we're setting ourselves up to be
disappointed.

1651
01:43:16,440 --> 01:43:18,920
Men are fallible.
They're going to make mistakes.

1652
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:25,040
Likewise, it's not fair to the
men who are who are in charge to

1653
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:28,760
expect them to be infallible.
You have to get your own

1654
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:31,720
revelation on things and you
need to stand by that

1655
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:35,240
revelation, even if you have to
stand what feels like alone for

1656
01:43:35,240 --> 01:43:37,920
a little bit.
Look, I I had to do it on this

1657
01:43:37,920 --> 01:43:41,480
podcast a couple times and then
out of the woodwork, I'm like,

1658
01:43:41,480 --> 01:43:45,160
oh, I'm not so alone.
I'm, I'm not out here by myself.

1659
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:49,360
I felt like it.
But sometimes it just takes one

1660
01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:54,000
person to say something to get
others to to stand up.

1661
01:43:54,640 --> 01:43:57,800
I believe fear is contagious,
but I also believe courage is

1662
01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:03,560
contagious as well.
Couldn't agree more.

1663
01:44:03,720 --> 01:44:07,040
David, thank you so much for I
guess letting me kind of host

1664
01:44:07,040 --> 01:44:11,720
your show tonight.
It's been a fantastic and man, I

1665
01:44:11,720 --> 01:44:14,800
can't wait to hear it.
And then eventually, after the

1666
01:44:14,800 --> 01:44:17,360
podcast drops, we'll have a text
version over at the

1667
01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:19,920
Fundamentalist Online.
I'm looking forward to reading

1668
01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:23,000
it so well, Not this part, but
the rest of the magazine.

1669
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:28,200
And it'll be the rest of the
magazine's coming middle of 2014

1670
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:30,040
or 2024.
Excuse me, I can't believe I

1671
01:44:30,040 --> 01:44:36,320
said 20/14/2024, but this actual
interview will be edited down

1672
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:38,960
and excerpted onto The
Fundamentalist Online.

1673
01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:40,920
Perfect.
All right.

1674
01:44:41,200 --> 01:44:43,400
Thanks, Greg.
Thanks a lot, David.

1675
01:44:43,400 --> 01:44:45,160
Talk to you soon.
Bye everybody.

1676
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:47,840
The.