Episode #1 The Adam-God Doctrine with Jacob Vidrine

0:06 On this episode of the Mormon. Renegade podcast, I sit down with Jacob Verdean. I follow Jacob for quite a few years on, various Facebook groups, talking about Mormon fundamentalism, and I was always impressed with his takes on the atom God doctor. And so, I have Jacob on the podcast. This time to help us kind of sort through the the history of the doctrine. And what it really means that next on this episode Of the Mormon Renegade podcast. Your listing to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Welcome to the Mormon Renegade podcast. I'm your host, Dave Sanders.

1:11 If you want to get ahold of me, you can do that by dropping me an email at Mormon Renegade at gmail.com. You can also find me on Twitter, get her Instagram all under the Mormon Renegade handle. Jacob, I can't appreciate you more for being here. I know it's a bit of a drive from where you came from, to get to my place. So I appreciate you being here. Well, it's good to be on Dave. So, real quick. Did you, were you always a fundamentalist know? Was not a fundamentalist, I grew up in the mainstream LDS church, I had a lot of great experiences in the church. It was I started to take a deep interest in the restored gospel and the doctrines of the Kingdom about the age of 20. I started studying and researching and I was going through my dad's library and borrowing books. You know, that you know, he had his Gospel Library like most faithful Mormons Do and read the king fault discourse and I was like, whoa this is expansive.

2:12 This opens up a whole field of information and deeper understanding of the gospel and I just wanted to I was just hungering and thirsting for more knowledge. Let me stop you there for a minute. Let me ask you this when was the first time that you can remember that you kind of looked back and went okay? Something's not right here between what I'm getting from the LDS church and What? I'm reading out of my dad's Library. What was the first inclination? Can you a lot of guys can kind of remember that moment, right? That where you have to make a decision either to do mental gymnastics to make what some of the first prophets of the restoration were saying versus what you're getting or you put your stock into what Joseph said, what Brigham said, what John Taylor said was there a moment was there?

3:03 Something that you read that? You can think back to you that you're like, Oh, man. Something's wrong. Yes, there is. And I was going through my dad's library and a little black book that's, you know, about, you know, an inch thick at most probably called Michael. Adam just caught my eye Hagen Crowd by Ogden cracker. And so, your dad was kind of. And so I saw this book on my dad's shelf and I go, what's this book about? And my dad goes. I've never seen that book before. I don't remember reading that book really And that, of course, piques my interest even further. And so I grab that book and that ended up being the next book on my reading list. I just read stayed up all night reading, Michael Adam, and that was probably my wake-up call that there are deeper doctrines that the church no longer has so. So you you you figure out that this is wrong you go to your dad and say what does this mean?

4:04 I mean what was your first inclination? You go to your Bishop who do you go to to be like hey what is this? Help me under help me understand what this is and what its ramifications are. I was very open with my dad as I was studying. I think when I when I found the king Follett discourse, my I was busy with work and so I couldn't unfortunately didn't go, but my family was on a church history, family, vacation going to back to see Nauvoo and all the sites and I was sending text messages to my dad, as I was studying and And so, obviously, I mentioned it to him and, you know, he's like, huh, that is kind of interesting. And I also, I was regularly meeting with my Bishop to discuss the gospel and I was kind of preparing to serve a mission at the time.

4:49 So you're what 16 17 at this point? No I was 20 at this. Your okay. So you were in go a little later than the standard LDS mission. Yeah. So so you actually figure this out as you're preparing to go on an LDS mission. Yeah. Part part of why I was To be, I need to know all this. These deeper things of the Kingdom. I need to have a comprehensive understanding. The gospel was I said, if I'm going to be called to serve a mission, then I want to be able to have the knowledge to be utilized by the Lord in that regard. So I was I wanted to study so that I wouldn't go out there and be caught off guard and not be able to fully use my intellect as much as it could have if I applied myself to prayer and study.

5:36 So So yeah, so you're preparing you're doing exactly what the LDS church ask you to do, which is preparing will actually probably physically and then prepare spiritually. And in that intellectual desire in that desire to be intellectual and to be able to defend the church on an intellectual basis. You you actually begin to discover some of these fundamental principles. Yeah, so I actually bring it up with to my bishop and my Bishop was actually not very opposed to He basically said, I was like, what are your thoughts on the atom? God Doctrine? And my Bishop goes, you know, just, you know it's that's a mystery.

6:17 Let's not focus on the Mysteries but you know, they are there are Mysteries but then he was released a couple weeks later and he gave farewell talked, you know, this you know, is he'd been serving for several years and that calling and his Farewell talk, he kind of mentioned that. That more powerful testimony of the need for supporting each other and the need for working together in that, you know, the whole plan of the Gospel is to uplift others and it's not a single effort, you know, it's not something you do by yourself. And he said that he hopes that when he gets back that father, Adam and Jesus Christ would be happy with the work that he has done.

6:59 And so I was like huh. That's a interesting way to end your testimony to say that you're you. You hope that father, Adam would be happy with the work that, you know, I don't think that they're, I think so often. We look at fundamentalism as being black and white. In the sense of you're either a fundamentalist or you're a member of the LDS church and I can tell you from personal experience, that's not always the case. You're talking to a guy who had lived, who lived plural marriage and still went to the LDS church and sat in between my two wives. For a year and a half, right? And I remember there was a guy in church. Whoo-hoo, you know, I remember he asked me is like, I really want to ask you what's going on there, but I'm really afraid of the answer.

7:51 And and so, it doesn't surprise me a bit when I hear stories of independent fundamentalists or people just starting fundamentalism, who are still in the LDS church, right? It's not a black or white proposition for a lot. Folks. Right? And some folks will live it for a while and then you know, or study about fundamentalism and never take the next step or they will they'll revert back maybe to go into the LDS church because it's comfortable. So, there's a whole bunch of things going on here and I don't think it's always as black and white as what what we think it is or what it should be. So at what point did you realize, Okay, I'm going to have to make a move, right? I'm going to, I can't keep going to the LDS church now, the Heat's getting real.

8:39 Well, I actually just kept studying and, you know, finding my reading Michael, Adam by Ogden crowd, kind of opened the door to going on the internet and trying to find what other material is out there. And so I stumbled upon the some of the don't know, if you've seen the YouTube videos by Kevin crowd, I have. Yep. And those are just Great little tidbits, you know, little five or ten minute Talks by Kevin that go into different principles of the Gospel such as re-baptism or there's one on Adam God. There's one about, I believe there's one about Hugh nibblies experience with Ogden Kraut where they, you know, had had a relationship talking to each other about different things and you know, that just kind of was a springboard to discovering all sorts of other doctrines arrest.

9:32 Of it. Yeah, yeah, I'm like and I hear from a lot of people that, you know, there's really only two, well there's there's obviously others but the two big doctrines that get people into studying that makes people realize there's something missing in the church. And I need to look for more more information. Outside of the church, is the atom God Doctrine and then the other one is plural marriage. If they start studying the history involved with plural marriage and what happened there. And so I've always appreciated The atom God aspect of it because it's, you know, it's about the identity of God. And that is what Joseph Smith said, was one of the first principles of the Gospel is to have an understanding of the character of God and the relationship we sustain to him. Well.

10:18 So I'll say two things to that first is. And I don't put Catholics very often but there was a Catholic Theologian and I can never remember who he was, but he had said, every heresy begins with a false idea about out who God is the next thing I'll say, is that Jesus himself said in John, I believe it was chapter 17, I could be wrong where he says, this is life eternal to know who God is. To know God and Jesus Christ, right? So the identity of god holds ramifications that we will we will never be able to fully I think grasp here, right?

11:04 I mean, the ramifications for understanding who God is especially when you start studying, atom God, it sets the pattern for what our whole life should be. So when did you make the exit out of the LDS church? Well, I kind of just started studying and conversing with other like-minded individuals who are interested in the deeper things of the kingdom and it was kind of a slow eggs. I never actually had an official I was never excommunicated. I didn't end up serving a mission I had some spiritual experiences that led me to decide that wasn't the path for me to take but as the more I began interacting with fundamentalist I stopped attending the LDS church as Lately. Yeah and you know there are some rocky stuff with some, familial relationships over that, who wanted who when they, you know, found out that I was going down that path, wanted to go talk to the bishop and tell him where you are at, you know, and everything.

12:04 And I actually did, I went and talked to the next, my next bishop and I kind of explain my position with the church and how it was kind of, you know, awkward position would be the nicest way to put it. Sure. And, you know, you You did. I was like if you need to remove my name from the records because I have some different views on Authority on Doctrine. You know, I'd be okay with that because I don't want what I do to negatively affect you and what you're doing. But the bishop goes oh no, don't worry about that. You know, I'm not concerned about that, you just, you know, you do what you feel, you need to do and, you know, we're not going to go down that path.

12:44 So it was kind of a gentle exit. I know a little Other people unfortunately have kind of harder exits from the church. And I know there are some people who, you know, get into some of these doctrines and get into appreciating them. And they can, as you mentioned, you know, it's not black or white thing with fundamentalism that you can come into. People who appreciate, you know, the deeper doctrines and can still remain in the church. You know, if that's where they're comfortable, and that's where they feel called to be. So, you know, and I joined I ended up Joining a fundamentalist sect and and I'm, you know, I'm grateful, I found them but that's not to say that maybe somebody else's role isn't in the church, whose a fundamentalist, right?

13:31 So that because at some point, we know that all this stuff is coming, right? I mean, the Lord's going to make all this known and not not always you going to make it known. He's going to testify to the veracity of all these fundamental principles and I Maybe some folks could stay in the LDS church because they feel called to it because maybe they can be a buffer for other people, right? Like they could be the ones to tell everybody else don't freak out, right? So, I'm not quick to say if you're fundamentalist you should just get out. That's not, that's not my position whatsoever. So yeah, no, I totally see how some people could make it work for me, it couldn't because I tend to look at things very black and white.

14:13 And and so for me, it drove me nuts, being in the LDS Church, where I would just come home fuming mad. In fact, the last word I was in, I was in a very prominent calling within the ward, right? And so when I left it caused all sorts of It caused a lot of questions. You know what's going on with Dave? Did he screw around on his wife? Did he, you know, all those things but so so you just kind of slip gently away, which is probably kind of the best scenario you can hope for. If you're going to leave for most people, I think, are you married at this time? I was not married. I was still, you know, this was about age, 20 21 about, okay.

14:57 It was a very it was very much, a gradual thing. And I started studying with fundamentalist because I fat realize that these are people who have spent many more years in studying the things of the kingdom of God. Then then I have. And so I start seeking out people who had, you know, that greater light and knowledge and trying to learn from them and seeking out. You know, people who specialized in say the history because I realized that in order to know a lot of the deeper Mormon Doctrine, so you need to kind of at least East know a little bit about the history of these doctrines in order to comprehend and to appreciate them. So yeah, that's what I ended up doing and you know it was a very interesting journey.

15:42 I feel very blessed for the people that I've been able to interact with and who have helped me in my research. And so, let's let me ask you this. When you meet your wife, is she from a fundamentalist background? Yes, she is. She actually my wife actually does come from a fundamentalist background Her dad is a polygamist, okay? We connected over you know, similar religious views and that makes it easy. Yeah, it's definitely a lot easier to connect with. If religion is one of your big priorities, you need to, it's going to be a rocky road to marry. Someone who doesn't have those same priorities. Yeah. And so she kind of actually took interest in me.

16:24 She made her intentions clear, and look at you go stud. She made her. Intentions, clear. And you know, the rest is history and we've been blessed to be married, almost 5 years now, and we have two little children, so that's awesome. So, Amber and I had been married for almost and, and this is going to be on a subsequent podcast as well, where I go into my story a little deeper, but I How I got into fundamentalism, I do Vin like not just feet-first headfirst right? I mean, I was, it was, it was incredible. Amber had a good friend who had some independent fundamentalist family members and I remember Amber kept asking me weird questions like hey if and I won't mention my second wife's name, she has since left.

17:21 But for her privacy because I know she's still a member of the LDS church but she her we'll just call her Carol. So Amber and Carol would be sitting at the table studying and Amber Road, ask me questions from time to Time like hey of plural marriage came back. Would you take Carol as a wife? And I'm like that's a dangerous question. Be careful how you answer. David be very careful. This is a test. First thing I thought of was Admiral Ackbar from Star Wars. It's a trap, right? That was my first thought and I was like, I don't know, it's late. I go to bed. And one day I remember, I walked in the house and Amber and Carol were at the table reading, and They just said, hey, come down and look at this. And so, I looked, you know, and they were in the Doctrine and Covenants.

18:12 And, and she goes, was this say, and I said, well, it says thus saith the Lord. She said, was this saying thus, saith the Lord, was this a verily verily. Thus saith when we get this another four or five times. And finally, she goes to the manifesto and she says, what does this say? And I said to whom it may concern and she goes, something's wrong. I'm like, no, I know. Is there something wrong? And from there, we all talked about it and much like you, I discovered Ogden krauts work and learned about a solemn Covenant, right? And that's how I entered plural. Marriage. And then from there, it was it was through that that I found out about the rest of fundamentalism. So yeah, it's funny how we get to this point, right? I do.

18:58 Anyone that lie that starts out in the LDS church that goes to fundamentalism ever starts out from the premise of the LDS church has to be wrong. And I have to go find something else. It's always by accident, they're always LED. And what I found interesting is that nine times out of ten it usually goes back to them. Asking a question it did with me I remember it was hey I was working really hard to be a spiritual as I could and I remember I said, help me help me approach what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were and it was just weeks after that prayer that all this begins to happen and so just Be careful what you pray for. So yep, that's definitely true in my experience to where you don't, you don't discover these things and immediately go. I don't think most people discover these things and immediately want to throw the church out. And with me I continue to defend the church. I thought you know the church does a lot of good and it was a gradual thing where I realized you know, there's so much that has been lost.

20:04 I need to find you know I need to find people outside of The church to be able to find, you know, to be able to understand and to live some of these principles because the church doesn't have all these principles. I think you know Adam gone re-baptism we're probably two of the first ones that nudged me into the studying you discover you know the different things with the temple ordinances you discover you know other lost practices you know the consecration law of adoption plural marriage. There's just you know there's an To get into the doctrines. You know you have the all the different healing rituals. They had an early Mormonism that aren't around anymore.

20:45 L you have the Council of 50 which isn't around anymore you know there's its it can be intimidating realizing how much there isn't but it's also very gratifying to learn what is available there. You know what? Let me ask you this, how much more did the temple ceremony even in its current form with the LDS church? How much more did it? Make sense. Once you understood Adam God. So I never actually went through the temple and build his church. Okay. I understand what the ritual, I. I've done a lot of studying of the changes in the ritual, but that definitely plays a big role in understanding that I am. God and vice versa understanding the temple. Ritual helps them to understand.

21:29 Adam God understanding. Adam God helps understand the endowment ritual. Absolutely. Absolutely. I hope he can get into that. We're good. We're gonna get into that. Yep. So all right so let's let's dive in here in your estimation what's the first time even if it's not a direct. Hey Adam is God. Kind of quote? Where's the first time that we can look back and really see Joseph Smith begin to expound on this idea that perhaps Adam is our father in Heaven. So, I was actually just researching the specific issue recently. You see it in a lot of Revelations are in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, it seems that somewhere between 1832 and 1834.

22:16 Joseph Smith has connected. The dots that Adam is the ancient days, which when you read Daniel chapter 7, the only place the Ancient of Days is really mentioned. In the Bible is in the Book of Daniel. This is a Bit more than just a simple profit figure, he has 10,000 times 10,000 Minister before him a little bit more than a prophet and Joseph identifies, the ancient days as Adam in that context and he identifies him as Michael. The Archangel, the prince, he talks about how he has dominion over the Human family. And so there's a lot of stuff in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants that really in Joseph, Smith's Revelation sent really laid this layout higher role of Adam than say the this ignorant individual who didn't really have a knowledge of the gospel. And actually, if you go back even further the seeds of it, are there in the earliest Revelations that we have Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon, and in the book of Moses, in the Book of Mormon, we have, you know, the fall of Adam, instead of being this screwing up, God's plan. It's Adam failed at man might be in men, are that they might have joy and you go into The book of Moses and Adam has the gospel given to him.

23:36 He's ordained to the priesthood. He says that thou are after the order of him who is without beginning of days or end of life and there's all sorts of great stuff about Adams role, being a significant role in those early revelations in the book of Moses, which is in 1831, so you definitely have the seeds of it there in 1831, it develops, even more by 1835, then by 1830. Nine Joseph Smith is making some pretty incredible statements about Adam when he's teaching the Quorum of The Twelve in private. There's what? Let me stop right there. For a second. I've often because I agree with you 100%.

24:17 I've often wondered if Joseph even you what this was leading to write because Joseph is simply translating at that point, right? When we talk about the or or gaining revelation That point. And so you wonder how much he wrote down without fully comprehending it because as as we look up and this is one of the things I love about Joseph Smith is, I think you can see his progression, although it's significantly faster than the rest of the rest of the church. You can tell that there's a progression that he's learning right along with the rest of the Saints.

24:57 You know what I mean? Absolute you. You get that same impression that that even though Joseph, revealing this that maybe Joseph himself isn't quite putting all the pieces together kill about eight till about the Nauvoo period. Yep, absolutely. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I do think that it's a learning process for Joseph Smith himself as he begins to, he's receiving all these Revelations and he's doing so much of the time. He's both ecclesiastical Church leader but also a community leader as well where he is building. Cities and helping immigration, and he's involved with a lot of stuff and not only that, you have the persecutions, you have the conflicts that they're dealing with. And so I agree that there's definitely, you know, he's got a lot that he's doing and probably took a bit, you know, took a little time for the funeral.

25:47 Probably had to go back and read the revelations that he that was revealed through him to probably process it. All concerning Joseph Smith, I want to say this, I when I was Back East. I was fortunate enough to work for a university, and I won't mention, which one because I don't know if it's something that the professor would would appreciate me, Sharon online. But I took a course, at a pretty prestigious University. And I took a course about Jacksonian America, because I was a surveyor for the University, I worked with him, our company worked with them, they gave me some discounts and classes and so, This professor, who was teaching, this course, in Jacksonian America, you can't really cover Jacksonian America without covering the Latter-Day Saints, right? The beginnings of the movement and Upstate New York. And he said, and I'll never forget this. I was sitting in class, and I was probably the only Mormon in there because we get pretty sparse east of the Mississippi. He said something to the effect to this effect, which was if Joseph, when you encounter Joseph Smith, you have to come too.

26:58 To one of two conclusions, he either was what he said he was, or he is the most raw genius that the United States ever produced. And after class, I asked him, I said. So, which one do you think it is? He says, I don't ask that question, right? He didn't he didn't want the answer, but I think it is impressive because I don't think the LDS church these days have the same vision that Joseph Smith had. Right in the sense that well, here, let me ask you this, how many Chapels did Joseph Smith Builder? Hmm, that's a good question. I really don't know if I have the answer to that snot 10. It's not five, it's not three, it's zero Joseph.

27:43 Smith's Vision was all about community and Temple work. And we in the LDS church we've missed that somewhere, right? That we don't build community like we used to Zion was a real thing. So back to the original point I think Joseph is learning just as the rest of the Saints are because he is so busy right. He's got this massive vision of what Zion is supposed to be and the Lord has said you got to roll it. Forthright it all starts through you, you got to go and so I imagine he's just as busy as we are in our lives. More. So because like you said, not only is he in the business of building Community, but now he's got converts coming in, they're hungry, they need fed persecutions.

28:27 The whole ball of wax, right? So yeah, I really do think he he's learning right along the same time, we are. All right? So let's go forward. 1839, what do you happen to have teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith on you because I have excerpts of the quotes right behind you, perfect. You've got So if you go to page 157, I don't you. I think you have some of those pages may not correspond, feel free to get rid of that clip in there that paper clip, he's thumbing through there. Now folks, it's there we go. You got her. Yeah. So the page numbers are a little different but fortunately you had it, right?

29:09 You had it marked. So So this is, this is in July of 1839, this is private instruction to the Quorum of The Twelve that Willard Richards, right, sit down, and they take it with them to England. So, this is showing that the 12 are receiving private instruction from Joseph, Smith that before he begins to reveal these kinds of things to the Saints publicly. And so, and he gives some instruction on atom. That is pretty interesting when you read it. So he says Daniel. Let's see. The Priestess of this would be paid. This is normally page 157 and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

29:51 The priesthood was first given to Adam, he obtained, the first presidency and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the creation before the world was formed as in Genesis 1:26, 27 28. So if you stop right there, he's saying that Adam held the keys even before the creation, the spiritual creation of man in Genesis After one. So that's that's a significant thing right there. He had Dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael the Archangel spoken of in the scriptures then did Noah, who is Gabriel. He stands next authority to Adam in the priesthood. He was called of God to this office and was father of all living in this day. And in his day and to him was given the Dominion. These men held keys first on Earth and then in heaven. So you gotta wonder you saying that Adam Held the priesthood before the creation.

30:45 But he held his priesthood first on Earth and then in heaven. So that's in my opinion. That's him directly staying to Adam had received his priesthood Authority on a previous Earth. And what year did you say that was from 1839. Okay, so we're Nauvoo period now. Yep, very beginning of the novel period. So he goes on to say the priesthood is an everlasting principal and existed with God from eternity and will to Eternity without beginning of days or end of years. The keys have to be brought from Heaven. Whenever the gospel is sent, when they are revealed from Heaven, It Is by Adams Authority. So, that's another strong statement about Adam from Joseph Smith, he goes To say Daniel and his seventh chapter speaks to the ancient days. He means the oldest man.

31:31 Our Father, Adam Michael, he will call his children together and holy counsel with them, to prepare them for the coming of the son of man. He Adam is the father of the Human family and presides over the spirits of all men and all that have had the keys must stand before him. In this Grand Council, this may take place, but for some of us, leave the stage of action, the son of man, stands before him, and there is given him glory and Dominion, Adam. Rivers up his stewardship to Christ that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the Human family and you have that all underlined, which is great. That's a very key statement. So when you think about that, he Adam is getting the priesthood to Christ and he's saying the keys of the universe.

32:17 Are this, the priest authority to Adam held and that the universe is a very big place. Yeah. Yeah. No it and That's the thing with Joseph Smith, right? And even once I think Joseph Smith understands Adams position, he's very careful right to not. Let this get out or let me rephrase that he's careful who he passes along cute, right. I believe it was Joseph who said that? I could reveal a lot of things to you guys and I'm paraphrasing here. A lot of things to you but you will shatter like glass, yep? Right. And so, he's got to be very careful how he gives us the other thing. Is, there's probably a sense of I can't just turn these loose on the world, because they tried to kill me over the Book of Mormon. What are they going to do?

33:10 This is just additional scripture. What are they going to do? When I up and their ideas of the very deity? They claim to worship? Yeah, they would come after him like crazy. So he is he you'll never see Joseph Smith. Come right out. I think he did. Let me rephrase that. I know he did. I can't prove it, but I know he did. He never comes right out in a public meeting and says this is it? Let me break down who Adam is for you. Adam is your heavenly father because he just doesn't have that opportunity. He does seem to pass this along to a lot of other people.

33:50 So go ahead. Sorry. Yep. I'm actually glad you said that in another quote that fits right along with that where Joe The Smith said that I could keep a secret till doomsday. So he was someone who could have things revealed to him and keep it locked up. You know, he begins teaching doctrines of exaltation in the early 1840s and a lot of these things, he doesn't go public with until 1844 because the apostates are starting to criticize him for these doctrines. And so he goes here, let you, I'll let you hear it from my own mouth and here as it's inspired by the Lord. So, and as you said, you know Joseph is Careful with how he says things, there are some other statements. He says, continuing in this page to other statements. That if you read them carefully, they fit perfectly with Adam God.

34:37 So he going on. He says the father called all Spirits before him at the creation man and organize them. He Adam is the head and was told to multiply the keys were first given to him. And by him to others, he will have to give an account of his stewardship and they to him. So, the father called all the spirits before. Matt, the crash, A of man, he atom is the head and was told to multiply you can read that as, you know, referencing Madam as the creation, or you could read that as referencing Adam as the father, depending on what perspective you're looking at that. And I think you're right, and I think Joseph went out of his way to make those kind of statements with that whole idea of that whole principle of Mind Of Those Who Have Eyes to see and ears to hear We'll pick this up, right?

35:26 And then I can just imagine that Brigham sitting at the prophets feet, hearing this and Brigham's wheel, starting to turn and he goes wait a second and then finds Joseph later in the evening and be like, It's bound that for me a little bit. What did you mean here? And then that's when that's kind of probably the signal much because that's the way that our heavenly father works with us, right? We ask a question that shows them a level of spiritual maturity in which God is ready to pass that information on. I'm sure. Joseph operated probably pretty similarly in the sense that he waited on these deeper things, he waited for people to approach him and then he said, okay you asked Junior ready for the answer?

36:13 Yeah, that's a good point. And so, this last statement from this July, 1839 teachings on priesthood by the prophet, as he says, how have we come at the priesthood in the last days, it came down down in regular succession, Peter, James, and John, had it given to them and they gave it to others. Christ is the great high priest Adam next. And so, if you read that, some will take that saying. See Christ is the great high priest and Adam is the And great high priest. But if you read that statement context, Joseph Smith is tracing how they came to the Melchizedek priesthood in the last days. And so, he says it came down and regular succession, Peter, James, and John had a given to them, and they gave it to others.

36:55 So, Oliver in cowdrey, received it from Peter, James, and John, then who do Peter James and John, who did Peter James, and John, get their priesthood from Christ, the great high priest, and then he goes and on and says, Adam necks. So he's tracing his priesthood from Joseph and Oliver to Peter James and John to Christ to Adam but you wouldn't get that, you know, you can it like you said what the other one you can read it either way well, but to be fair to, I think this shows how Joseph's mine is really working, right? He is, he is formulating that lineage the same way. It is, in ancient scripture, it's very Hebrew in its text in the sense that he got it from him think of the bagasse statements in the in the Old Testament, right?

37:41 Working your way, back to the source. And and I think I think he's doing that same thing right there. So Joseph, he talked about King followed a little bit, right? Because I think that's really The Benchmark. And unless you can think of another one where all the sudden all these other statements about Adam in conjunction with King Follett, That's really the crowning moment for Joseph Smith as far as the atom God. Dr. Agree. Or disagree on that. There's a couple of things that lead up to the king fought if you want to get it. Let's no. Let's let's do that. Let's follow that. I jumped the gun there. No. You're totally good because that's where a lot of people realize is that we can fall out discourse lace, all of these seeds for what is going on. But Joseph actually, after he gives that private instruction to the Quorum of The Twelve in 1839 at the October 1840 conference he again makes Strong statements about Adam, they'll probably not as strong as in the private meeting of the twelve. He makes some interesting statements about Adam and I'm just going to read one of those girl quick. So commencing with Adam.

38:49 Who's the first man who's spoken of and Daniel is being the ancient days or in other words, the first and oldest of all the great grand progenitor of whom, it is said in another place, he is Michael because he was the first and father of all not only by progenitor. But Was the first to hold the spiritual blessings to whom was made known the ordinances for the Salvation of his posterity unto the end. And to whom Christ was first revealed and through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven and will continue to be revealed from henceforth. So that's a pretty interesting statement saying that Christ is revealed from Heaven by Adam and some people will correlate that with God the father in multiple places in The New Testament and to Joseph Smith saying, this is my beloved Son, hear ye him. So that's could be seen as important atom God, statement, right there and going on.

39:46 He says Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times, IE the dispensation of all the times that have been or will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ. And from Christ to the end of the dispensations that are to be revealed. So he's laying out Adam as presiding over all the Sensations of the Gospel from the beginning of time to the end of time and the one to whom through whom Christ is revealed. And so he's laying out this exalted view of Adam at this General Conference sermon, he doesn't have it published. That might be seen as significant. This instruct, this is instructions on priesthood at the October 1840 conference and they said that the person who watched him Joseph was busy or sick and he wasn't able to actually go and do.

40:35 Over a long loud speech to the congregation, so he said, I will dictate sermon to be read on priesthood. And so the person who was the Scribe said that, he saw Joseph, just filled with the Holy Ghost and just lay out the sermon on priesthood and it's a really great sermon and that is definitely planting the first seeds of Adam, God publicly in the years of his hearers and not boo. So, if you continue after that, I want to get to the King fought. Because I like I said, I'm really excited about the king fall at this court says, well, there's another place where Joseph begins to teach about atoms, important role regarding the Human family and that is the May 4th 1842 meeting where Joseph first reveals the endowment to his Close Associates and probably the endowments, a whole other subject and of itself.

41:29 But Joseph in that meeting. According to what Willard Richards wrote an account of it in. Five, you know, less than a year after Joseph's death, he went back and was finishing the history of the church and he wrote that, that Joseph laid out, the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days and all those plans and principles, you know which are necessary to abide with the Elohim and come up in the presence of the church, the first born in heaven. And so what's interesting there is he calls it the order pertaining to the ancient days. And so it's father Adams order, he's kind of She ate them in this understanding, that there's this great priest to Jenny ology that goes back to Father, Adam, who stands as our father and our God in the priesthood in so far as he is the righteous patriarchy over the Human family and probably Pratt writes about that.

42:22 And in detail year after Joseph's death, he writes article and he explains that this is the celestial family organization if I'm going to read that quote. Sure where he Means what this is he says so this is in the millennial star Volume 5, May 18 45 page 191 first, his most gracious and venerable Majesty King Adam with his Royal concert consort Queen Eve will appear at the head of the whole great family of the redeemed and we crowned in their midst as a king and a priest Forever. After the order of the Son of God, they will be arrayed in garments as white as snow and will as white as snow and will take their seats on. Thrones in the midst of the paradise of God on Earth.

43:04 Earth to Reign forever and ever. While thousands of thousands stand before him and Ten Thousand Times, Ten Thousand Minister unto him. So that's again, going back to the Daniel chapter 7 and so they then probably view Pratt rights. And if you'll receive it, this is the order of the ancient days, the kingdom prepared and organized to meet Jesus. When he comes this venerable, patriarchy and Sovereign will hold the lawful jurisdiction over able. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac. Jacob, Joseph, Moses the prophets Apostles, and It's of all ages and dispensations who will all reverence and Obey him as their venerable father and lawful Sovereign. So that there is him partly prattling out what that meant, when Joseph laid out, the order pertaining to the ancient days. That is father.

43:51 Had Adams Family Kingdom, which is all of us, right? I know if you have any thoughts on that, you know, I think it just it continues to show that Joseph Smith. He's Almost giving it to you, right? He's like here. Do your homework, think about these things, Ponder these things, right? But you can almost feel he wants to give the full thing but he knows he can't write. He wants to share with everybody the things that he found. And he just can't yet because he knows it's detrimental, not just to his own well-being but the well-being of every saint, that follows him at that point.

44:37 And again, he goes, It's like somebody who is is almost saying the words in the game of Charades, right? Just to get you to get it. And and I get that feeling every time, I read things by Joseph Smith, like things you took that I had highlighted in my teachings, of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He's given it to you. You just got to stop and think for a second and then it'll click. Yep. Absolutely. So, Joseph Smith is, he's beginning to lay this. Foundation for the Saints. Because in order to really comprehend Adam God, there are actually some other doctrines that you need to kind of get in order to have that foundation in order to appreciate it like, you know, Eternal progression, right?

45:25 The the opportunity that we have to become as God is. Yep. When I, when I, when I go to layout the different components of the atom, God Doctrine, I realized are actually probably probably four or five different other doctrines that need to really be laid out to fully appreciate it. And Joseph Smith is beginning to lay those out in the Nauvoo period as he's, you know, preparing the Saints to understand the full nature of our relationship to God, and the full doctrine of what exaltation actually entails. So, just one quote that I love that. I don't see. A lot of people use a lot is on February 9th, 1841. This is in words of Joseph Smith.

46:05 He probably find it in the Joseph Smith papers as well. Joseph preached, this Adam did Commit sin in eating the fruit for God, decreed that he should eat and fall. But in compliance with the decree he should die only, he should die. Was the original saying of the Lord and originalism brackets? So, what's interesting there is he saying that he's teaching the Saints? He says, hey Adam wasn't this bad guy when he partook in the fruits? He was. And as he was teaching, obviously, as he laid out the endowment ceremony that this was a necessary thing for the progression of mankind. And it was not the This terrible thing that Adam did but that he was only acting in compliance with the what had been revealed to him and the circumstances he had been placed in and that will later connect back to when Brigham Young in a section that is no longer available to the LDS in the temple ceremony. And that is the lecture at the veil. Because if you if you trace that back, when Brigham puts that fourth that is very much the idea of the lecture at the Veil. Okay, so when you get into these foundational doctrines about God, that really make the atom God Doctrine makes so much sense.

47:19 Probably the first thing that Joseph Smith began to really publicly reveal an Abu though. His Revelations teach again as early as 1830 one is the understanding that God the father has a body and this is something that he actually probably was teaching it earlier than that because there's a statement by non-mormon in 1836 named Truman All who said they the Mormons contend that the god, worshiped by the Presbyterians and all other sectarians is no better than a wooden God. They believe the true God is a material being composed of body and parts and that when the crater formed Adam in his own image, he made him in the size and shape of God himself. So that's pretty interesting.

48:02 And there's almost an identical statement like that in the king Follett discourse about the creation of Adam. Yep. And in Nauvoo, Joseph began. Into really preach this to the Saints in public sermons, January 5th, 1841. He said that, which is without body parts, and passions is nothing. There is no other God in heaven, but that God, which has a Flesh and Bones. And then again, the king fought discourse, which is, you know, he's laying the foundations here. He said, quote, if the veil were rent today in the great God who holds the world and its orbit, who upholds, all worlds, and all things by his power were to make himself visible. I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him it like a man and form, like yourself in person image and very form as a man, for Adam, was created in the very fashion image and likeness of God and received instruction from him and walk. Talked and conversed with them as one man talks and communes with another.

49:01 And so that's the king Follett discourse, that was April 7th, 1844 and he's giving this discourse in response to the anti Mormons who are saying look what these heresies Joseph, Smith's, teaching and Joseph's like here. I will preach it and not only will I preach, I will tell it to you from the Bible. He says, I'm going to prove that God the Father once was a man like us and I can prove it from the Bible and And he quotes different scriptures, you can use to support that and so that leads up to the next key Doctrine to understanding the atom God Doctrine is the doctrine of a plurality of God's which Joseph Smith darts to touch on that in the king fought.

49:41 This course he doesn't really get to fully lay it out in the king Follett discourse. It's the his sermon in the Grove on June 16th. 1844, this is his last doctoral sermon the only a few weeks before I believe a week or so before. Death. He gives a sermon on the plurality of Gods. Let's see. The other thing that that I love about the doctrines that Joseph is laying out and especially deeper. Once once Adam God is really expounded, is this fact that unlike what a lot of the Catholics taught will, all the Protestants taught, our flesh isn't a curse now, there's certain appetites that come with it that we have to Bridle but our human, our Humanity can be Holy, right?

50:33 And I think that's a big takeaway from what Joseph saying here, and it's a big takeaway from the atom. God Doctrine. Is that your Humanity does not have to be carnal and devilish your Humanity? Even in the flesh can be and should be holy. Yeah. And that totally goes with a correct understanding of the Fall rather than a total depravity view of. You know what Adam did is, basically cursed all mankind to basically be doomed to Hell. Yep. No, that wasn't what the purpose of the fall of Adam was for. It was to give us opposition and trials and all things and by you know experiencing that and learning to overcome that we become stronger, more experience and more. Holy in that process, I think it also puts into a light. What, when you think about that, that makes Heavenly Father statement to Joseph Smith in the Grove where he says, they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Because this whole time through Christendom, the vast majority of the 2,000 years of Christendom. We have put Adam up as a cautionary Tale. Right.

51:48 And in so doing our hearts have been withdrawn from our father. So that that statement that Heavenly Father makes in the Grove to Joseph Smith, I think it's far more poignant than we could ever imagine. Can you imagine your father right? You have a daughter? Yep. Can you imagine if at some future time, your grandchildren looked at you the way that Christendom looked at Adam, it's heartbreaking, right? And that's it. And once I understood the The atom God Doctrine. I looked at that statement that was made by our heavenly father. Adam Michael to Joseph Smith in the Grove is truly heartbreaking.

52:30 They draw close to me with their lips, but their hearts are so far from me, it's almost heartbreaking. Anyway, go ahead sorry. Yeah, no, thank you not allowed me to find the quote, I want. Yeah. So, this is from the sermon of the Grove. The last doctoral, sermon by Joseph Smith. Which you can find in teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith or you can find it online. There's plenty of different places that have it. So this is Joseph Smith saying if Abraham and reasoned thus if Jesus Christ was the son of God and the Apostle John discovered that God the father of Jesus Christ. Had a father, you may suppose that he had a father also and where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father? Without first being a son, wherever did a tree or anything spring into existence without progenitor? Everything comes from this way.

53:19 Paul said that which is Earthly is in the likeness of that, which is hidden Heavenly hence of Jesus had a father. Can we not believe that he had a father? Also, I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a Doctrine for the Bible is full of it and the verse that Joseph Smith, love to quote is where Jesus said the son does nothing of himself, but what he has seen the father do. And he also makes mention of, you know, in First Corinthians where Paul says, there are Lords, many and gods many both in heaven and on Earth. Earth and, you know, there's and Aces but to us, there's one God, the father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. And the early Christians, understood that as referencing that there are, you know, if there's, if they're in heaven, they are not false gods.

54:02 There are real gods in heaven, and that's what Joseph Smith was. Pointing out it soft. I find it often funny that that for the vast majority of again Christendom we have said that the old and Testament are strictly monotheistic in their approach. You just have to read the Old Testament to understand that that's not the case right while we as Mormons and I would say Jews and Christians, probably Islam as well, recognized the supremacy of one God. That's not to say that it's completely monotheistic. Yeah, absolutely.

54:47 And so once you understand that God is a man that there's multiple gods, you also have Joseph Smith playing out about the same time and the King Follett discourse that we can become gods. That we have to learn how to advance from degree degree in from exaltation. Doing exaltation, until we attain to the resurrection from the dead and he said that we are just as eternal Our beings as God is in his. And so he is laying out, he's bridging, this Gap. Instead of this unbridgeable gap of mankind, being this awful like this pet of God, he's saying, know the scriptures teach that we have a literal parent-child relationship with God and that we can become like him. And so in his private counsels, Joseph Smith is laying out a lot more of this than what he is doing publicly and he's teaching about there being a heavenly mother that We are the spirit children of God and he's also teaching and we can show it in the records that he, that we are the physical offspring of God as well.

55:50 And that is the first really key part of the atom. God. Doctrine is to understand that God is not only the father of our spirits, but also the father of our bodies. That's right. And and I want to hit on that subject later on in the podcast, when we start talking about the ramifications of the doctrine and the ramifications for suppressing, Doctor. So I think we've laid out at this point, or I should say you've laid out at this one. Jacob, a really good series of evidences that point to the fact that Joseph did understand this Joseph, even tried to teach this even on the macro level.

56:31 And this was something that was given to him from god. So let's let's move forward. Now past the, the Nauvoo period. Can I point out one? Other evidence, we prohibit private councils and so this is really exciting. When I first read this when the Council of 50 minutes were released in 2016, I was going through the minutes, trying to see what new information we can get about. Joseph Smith's teachings and practices and Abu and I was really pleasantly. Is and I still happy to see this quote that there actually is a record of Joseph Smith teaching about the nature of God in his private counsel of the Council of 50 in this is two days before the king Follett discourse.

57:16 And this totally confirms what one of Joseph, Smith's friends said that Joseph was teaching in the Council of 50. So been Jeff Johnson in his biography said that Joseph was teaching in the Council of 50 that that you would teach, where man will be taught to know his original. Ian and how to govern himself. And that all will come to the knowledge of God is one of the things and later on. He said in a later letter that Joseph taught us that God was the great head of human procreation the was really and truly, the father of both our spirits and our bodies. And so in the Council of 50 minutes, we do have this brief note for the April 5th. 1844 meeting of the council, where the chairman Joseph Smith explained, the meaning of the word In which signifies the first man or first.

58:05 God, and Amin Christ signifies the first man's son. Hmm. It's so very brief record, but that's a very, very powerful statement where he's equating the first man to being the first God, is we know there's a revelation from Joseph Smith in the 1830s saying, the Amon is the name for the great God, right? And so, he's equating the first man to the first, God, and he's saying that I'm Men Christ, which is the name for Christ in this language. Signifies the first man son. And so that there is just, if I don't know what other evidence you could need to show that Joseph Smith is clearly teaching, some powerful Concepts in private that he has it, fully explicitly laid out to the Saints publicly, right?

58:55 No, that's awesome. I'm glad you brought that up. All right, so, let's, let's move along here. So Joseph assassinated, he's killed. Brigham Young takes up the Mana, right? You have the secession crisis. You got some folks at wander away with string. You have some that wander away with. I believe it was one Madrona rig did, right? And the vast majority go with with regular, okay? So let's fast forward. Now to the very early period of the Utah period, when we're still Deseret and Joe, and Brigham's out there When does Brigham first make public utterances of this doctor, so this can actually be, you know, there's some people who really study this and study the history of Brigham sermons and will say that maybe some of his early sermons really kind of hint at it as early as say 1847 in Winter quarters, he's talking about how we're all going to be. We all need to be sealed back into father Adams family and that we're all going to to receive the ordinances of the temple and that's placed father Adams name on our foreheads which in the Book of Revelations that says doesn't exist, like it's the name of God, our forehead. And as in 1848, he delivers a sermon saying that Adam is the one who's going to preside over the resurrection. It was Michael Adam who

1:00:26 resurrected Christ, which is pretty significant the same time. He says, you can't do the ordinance of the Resurrection, unless you have been resurrected yourself and have a resurrected body and also I think it's important that Brigham make some statements, I can't remember where in the Journal of discourses, it is. But Brigham lays out pretty clearly. That Resurrection is a familiar affair, right? It's family. He when Brigham expounds on. He says the the sun will resurrect the father and we'll go back down that chain, right? And it ties in. Yeah, no, but very much a shadow if you will of things which are to come with Brigham. Absolutely.

1:01:08 And on that subject of the Resurrection that might actually explain why, or some practice making the statement, you know, there's a statement I believe on Wikipedia on the atom, God Doctrine article that says Orson Pratt taught this and this and this and it was a really great item. God statement when I go look it up and the statements actually Brigham Young statement and whoever the Wikipedia editor was accidentally attributed it to Orson Pratt but I was like, man, I feel like there has no one likes giving Brigham his do but it was about kind of The resurrection if I remember, right? But then when I was reading through looking for a statement and Wilfred woodruff's Journal, I found this statement in November 1847 by Orson Pratt preaching on the resurrection and it's pretty surprising who he says preside will preside over the entire Resurrection considering his later feelings regarding Adam.

1:01:58 So he says, quote, and this is a Wilfred woodruff's Journal November 21st, 1847 Sunday I met at the stance some of the 12. In the congregation or surprise address the congregation upon the subject of the Resurrection, which was interesting to us. All some have been teaching the doctrine that the resurrection was by birth or through the worm. Umm, but brother Pratt showed the Folly of such a doctor improved by many Revelations that the dead were raised by the power of God and the blowing of the trumpet of Michael, the Archangel who was father Adam and that the graves of the Saints would be opened and their bodies would come forth out of the graves according to the vision of Ezekiel. And many of the He showed that, however, miraculous at my appear in to us, it was just as easy for God to perform this work, as it was to turn water into wine or make bread without flour to feed a multitude Wilford. Woodruff followed brother Pratt and bore testimony to what I'd been spit said and spoke in the spirit of the Lord. And so that's a second witness that they are teaching. In that time period, that Adam, is the one who's presiding over the resurrection of the Human family and as you said, that would make sense if it's a familial thing and Adam is the grand patriarch.

1:03:06 Over the Human family, right? Yep. So you get into Deseret and there's kind of a bit more focus on the temporal aspects of surviving out in the brand new settlement and there's occasionally sermons, but there's not really a whole lot of doctrinal preaching until we know, probably the early 1850s and in the early 1850s you start to get the Journal of discourses. You can get like these really great powerful, sermons, that are recorded. Almost word for word because they have George D W. Who learned Pitman shorthand because Willard Richards. When he converted George, do you want in England? He said, you need to go learn how to acquire the skill to be able to record meetings, almost word for word because that will be an invaluable skill for the Saints to have. And you know because if you read Joseph Smith sermons and Nauvoo unfortunately the reporters can only get some a sentence here sentence there summarize, you know, that you don't have any Word for word, sermons of Joseph Smith, unfortunately. But you get into early Utah, and you're getting these really long detailed sermons where they're capturing. Basically the entire thing of what Brigham Young and what the other Apostles are teaching.

1:04:21 Okay, let me stop you there for a second, because now I'm going to play Devil's Advocate. We'll probably literally Devil's Advocate. Okay so um what do you say to someone? Who says you know what maybe maybe you know not old didn't do it correctly in his translation. Maybe maybe Brigham was talking about something that's lost to time and we don't understand it anymore. What's your answer to that? I would say that when you if you're on talking about the initial Adam, God's term. In which we can get to in a second. There's more than just one or two people recording it.

1:05:02 You actually have one, two, three, four, five, different people who are all recording, actually, six if you count, what's in the journal discourses you have six different people who are all recording this sermon and they're all capturing the key details of it and they all coincide. God says the mouths of two or three Witnesses. Yeah. That's that's six Witnesses. And these are not You have the church reporters, you have apostles who are recording this. When you look at the multitude of the sources, the idea that we just can't trust that it might be a misquote as some people might try to say, it just isn't really credible when you look at them, the magnitude and the multitude of the sources. Okay.

1:05:46 How about this one? How about Brigham? This is all Brigham's idea that lets Just toss out for a second toss out the last hour of our conversation toss out the last hour. Say everybody everybody except you and I come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith wasn't talking about Adam God. Okay, toss that out. And just for argument's sake. This is all something bigger made up. What do you have to say about that? Well, if you want to say that it's Brigham's, it was just Brigham's opinion, bring them makes many statements that he makes it clear that he has.

1:06:27 No, that is a revelation and that is something that he personally. So he will say on some occasions that Joseph taught it to him but he will also say that this Revelation from the Lord is what really confirmed this to him and why he teaches what he teaches is because of the Nations. He has received what I'm going to say next is going to break my heart because when you put the two prophets side-by-side Brigham and Joseph, I want to be more like Joseph and leading my family. I really do that. Kind of sweet soft being able just to get him to to move along easily. Unfortunately, at times, I find myself being able to identify with Brigham a little more in the sense of get your butt in the wagon.

1:07:14 We're going to cross those planes. We're going to go up and over that and I don't want hearing complaining about it. We're going to get there, right? So when I say this, this is not to Brigham's detriment, his mesh mission was different, but Brigham, isn't this Theologian? That Joseph Smith is I'm you could try to say that. I think that's a common perception, but when you actually dig into Brigham Young sermon, did he did have his moments but but let's, let's be honest. And let's be fair in the sense that he's not revealing. The amount that Joseph revealed is definitely building upon Joseph Foundation, or I wouldn't, I wouldn't give him the credit that some people would try to.

1:07:54 And, and again, that's not to disparage burden because I love Brigham and I will bear testimony to the day I go to my grave. That he was a prophet called of God and did absolutely nothing wrong with, in his prophetic calling, nothing having with that. This is a doctrine that sounds a lot more like Joseph Smith than it does Brigham Young. I would say that with the nature of God, it doesn't seem like something that Brigham Young would make up. No, and that's what I'm saying. A lot of great Revelations. Have deal more with temporal. Matter. And that's where I was going right? Brigham Brigham's a different profit for a different time, right?

1:08:38 Josef's laying down the principles of the Kingdom Brigham's put in brick-and-mortar to that Kingdom, so to speak. Does that make sense? It could you? Yeah, I can definitely agree with. Okay, I think in that I was going to say, that's where I think we were. That's where I was coming from, and I don't think I as usual voiced it real well. But, but, yeah, that's what I'm saying is that Expounding upon the nature of God or that seems to be a little bit. I don't want to say more but not what Brigham's about Brigham's about. Hey, this is when you're going to water your Gardens, this is how we're going to set up these communities. This is how we're going to build this massive Temple and this is how we're going to get out west, right?

1:09:21 So all of a sudden from the switch to that and just just get that out of whole cloth is something different. The other thing I point to is Eliza R snow who was one of Joseph's wife's and ended up becoming one of Brigham's wife, she even said Brigham didn't come up with that. Yep, that was something that came from Joseph Smith. Yep, you have a lot of different, the fact that if it would be a whole nother, you know, we're trying to keep this down to one conversation, you not be, you know, five hours long talking about everything but there's just so much other stuff that would point to the Going back to Joseph Smith, you have people whispering and not view about whether Adam might be the personage. They consider their father in Heaven. You have WWE Phelps writing poems that kind of hint at it. And and when Brigham Young reveals this in 1852 is when he makes his public Proclamation.

1:10:13 You have William Clayton. Who is Joseph's? Private scribe? He accepts it. You have allies are snow writing poems about it. You have WWE Felts riding phone poems about it. Almost every single person the Quorum of the L've save Orson Pratt accepts this when Brigham Young reveals it. And let's not forget also that there's actually hymns that are in early LDS hymnals. Preaching about Adam God, yeah, Kim's, right, so, so that that adds to the veracity of that. Now let me let me play Devil's Advocate one last time because I want to try to cover the major points of contention here where people try to Discount this or kind of sweep it under the rug, it was just Brigham's Theory Brigham, never meant for it to be a Doctrine. It was the atom, God Theory, not the atom God Doctrine, what your rebuttal to that, I don't seem Teaching, it's just a theory. If you want to want me to read the the statement from Germany, this course is volume 1 page, 50. You mean the one at General, Conference General Conference, the one from the pulpit at General Conference. Yeah, that'll yes.

1:11:21 Jacob I would love to hear that. Okay so I love that statement and I want to read that but I want to just add that something that a lot of people don't really know about is that on March 14th 1852 less than a month before conference. The Brigham Young in his prayer. Circle has some interesting things, that's recorded and this isn't. This is kind of a hard to find statement. It was recorded in the historians office Journal. You can find this statement in complete discourses of Brigham Young and also I believe Nate Taylor's the unknown. God book. Also cites this statement. It says at 4 p.m. Brigham Young Heber C, Kimball rig Willard Richards. Orson Pratt Wilford Woodruff George L, Smith Thomas. Block Edward Teacher Daniel H Wells and will WWE Phelps met in the temple rooms and prayed.

1:12:13 Brigham Young rolled out Revelation upon Revelation in regards to the creation of the world. Adam came to the earth when he assisted to form it and he partook of the fruits of the earth and became Earthly and they which are faithful after and faithfuls in Brackets, shall receive our resurrected bodies and shall all have the privilege of going as atoms to form and Earth and do likewise that in my opinion. Opinion is Brigham Young rolling out a revelation that's kind of confirming to him what Joseph Smith was teaching in the Nauvoo period. And this is I don't see it as any coincidences is only a couple weeks before the great General Conference pronouncement. Where Brigham Young reveals this Doctrine. How long, how long was that sermon that? Brigham taught during General Conference on Adam. God.

1:13:00 Oh man, I have all the different accounts of it, but I'm not quite sure how it was like 15 minutes. Long was all right, was it? Not sure. I just know. I know about all the different accounts of it. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I believe. He preached upon the subject for two or three hours. Okay. So he this is and my point in the question was this is more than a theory right Brigham's. Got enough chops here in understanding this that he's like, okay, we can roll it out. We're safe. We're in the middle of the desert and the Rocky Mountains. Ain't nobody? Coming for us at the moment. It's time to move this thing, forward. It's time to spill the beans, so to speak on on what? Joseph told me.

1:13:46 But go ahead and carry on. Sorry. All right, so that key statement now here at Owen, habitants of the earth, Jew, and Gentile, Saint and sinner when our father, Adam came into the Garden of Eden. He came in at with a Celestial body and brought Eve one of his wives with him. He helped to make an organized this world. He is Michael the Archangel. Ancient of Days about whom, holy men, have written and spoken. He is our father and our God, and the only god with whom we have to do every man upon this Earth, profession Christians or non professing must hear it. And we'll know it sooner or later does that really sound like Brigham has any doubts in his mind about what you just said it's not exactly the musings of a theory, right? Nowhere in there.

1:14:34 Do you hear maybe nowhere in there? Do you hear it? Could be, it's everybody's going to have to understand this. Everyone's going to have to hear it. One thing I would add to this is some, there's occasionally people who tried to float this to Adams Terry to say that maybe Adam was just kind of a name that he also called God on occasion, you know, and it kind of confuses everyone and gets a lot of thing. But it was just a Adam was just another name for God, there were two atoms, there's the Adam who's God, the father, and then there's a demand. Garden. But the problem with that interpretation of Brigham Young's Adam, God teachings is you don't, you won't just have two atoms. You have to have to Michael's to Ancient of Days. He's applying all the titles to that are Adam in the Garden of Eden to God the Father.

1:15:26 Yeah, and we have the sermon and we don't just have this kind of it. Wilford Woodruff right? Sneak out of it in his journal. As I mentioned we have six different counts of it. We have George D W, we have Wilford Woodruff Thomas, Bullock Hosea, Stout and his journal writes about it. He's rewrites, president. Brigham Young taught that Adam was the father of Jesus. And the only God to us, that he came to the world in a resurrected body, Etc. And so that's in Hosea, Stouts journals, which are published. You have a bishop, I believe. Lorenzo Brown was a bishop, and you had Samuel, H Rogers also. Alright, counts of it. Notice this the other day, probably a couple weeks ago. When I was reading through complete discourse of Brigham Young which is just a massive book. It's unfortunately it's hard to hard to get a copy of that. They only did 500 copies because apparently there's only 500 people in the world who want every published, Brigham Young sermon which is a joke.

1:16:23 And so those books are going for you know probably over a thousand dollars nowadays but you can get a PDF copy. I believe online for you can get each volume for like ten dollars. We can get the whole set for nice like $50 for digital copy but that book has all of those different accounts of that sermon. So and it's it. There's a bit of overlap with the Journal of discourses because I'm sure a lot of Brigham Young sermons. Get published in the Journal of discourses. But what's interesting is Journal of discourses aren't really always published in chronological order. They go. I Want A good sermon on tithing. I Want A good sermon on Temple work. I Want A good sermon on the nature of God and so they kind of throw And makes makes up a bit of what they think are some good sermons that Saints would appreciate to read while complete discourse of Brigham, Young, kind of lays it all out. In order of the talks that Brigham Young gave would be interesting because you could see what was on his mind at the time.

1:17:22 Yeah, you can see that development like, in 1853 he starts. He gets on a lot about how we really need to have kind of the true independence of heaven and think for ourselves and choose righteousness because it's right. And not because it's going to get you You any sort of advantage or Glory or power? He kind of just goes on a thread where he kind of lays out these ideas and develops them over the next, you know, over his sermon. So you know, in We talked a lot about Joseph Smith and what he thought, what we thought he may be going through during his progression and I think it's only fair. We do a little bit with with Brigham here. I think, especially knowing me, Frasier, I know especially today. Brigham, Young is really demonized heavily and people miss the fact that once you strip away the The perceived harshness of Brigham Young and I say preceived because we live in a different time.

1:18:26 When you get right down to it, this is a man who cares deeply he cares deeply about his predecessor Joseph. Smith loves the man. He cares, very deeply about his own family and then he cares. Very deeply about the Saints, right? The every time I hear it, I Weep when you get the account where Brigham this is one place. I shouldn't say one place. This is one of the places where you can really see. Brigham is a prophet is with the whole Willie and Martin handcart companies, right? Even before the snow flies. He says those Saints are in trouble in the conference. We got to go get them all.

1:19:16 The talking about religion is great but if we're not willing to live it and go help our Brethren, it doesn't matter. Yeah. That's and there is a deep feeling within Brigham of love, right? And, and in those times of perceived harshness what I think were getting is a type of fatherly concern. CERN right? Right down to how he's talking about the federal government when they start knocking on the door and he's like, will go to war of we I'm not going to see this people pushed around any further. We're done, right? And so Brigham's a he's complex because he's human like the rest of us like Joseph Smith is complex and everything else. But we do a disservice, not only to Brigham but to history in general, when we paint him with such broad strokes and take away his humanity and who he is.

1:20:15 Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's so true about where his priorities were. He's like I'm telling you all these great deeper things about the nature of God, but it doesn't matter if you are not going to go out there and live the Commandments and help your neighbors and live the gospel in your daily lives. And so he was really big on emphasizing that. The most important thing is he says, I don't care if you believe what I'm telling you about God or not, I care whether or not you will go exercise, your faith, and go help those Saints who are in trouble and are in need. We have tons of saints immigrating here. We need everyone to be willing to be charitable and to support one another. Because there were times where they'll like, we talked about the handcart issues, they were even after that 1857 1858, they had times where they were almost Starving and Brigham, Young and Heber C, Kimball go out and say, this is why we've been preaching so much about the need to store up all of your excess. We tend to not waste food because we have our store Houses full and we won't turn away Saints who need food but everyone should be that way and to be constantly trying to build up their store houses so that they also can be saviors of their Brethren.

1:21:28 So yep, absolutely. All right, sorry about that, kind of sidebar, go. And continue on, oh well, if you get into and so some people might say, it was just a handful of sermons. But oh, man, when I go through the atom God sermons, you know, I guess if you read the Journal of discourses, because it's a variety of just hand-picked, sermons based off of different topics, you might only find one or maybe two Adam, God's sermons per volume during the 1850s, you know, it's not a huge. Huge priority, but when you compile all of the unpublished stuff, there's a lot of unpublished, Adam God, sermons and Brigham.

1:22:10 Young is just preaching on it. You know, 1852 1853 1854. I was I was just going through and I'm like, so February 1854, he gives a really great sermon on it and he talks about. He goes back to saying the reason I started talking about this, with some of the elders who are trying to say that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost. He says absolutely not. That is Not what the New Testament teaches. He is the Son of God, the father. And so this is on February 19th 1854. I will notice another idea touching the Holy Ghost be getting the Son of God, who was it? That spoke from heaven and said this is my beloved Son.

1:22:50 Hear him was it God. The Father it was the apostles bear testimony that such a voice was actually heard. This is my beloved Son and if it were true that the Holy Ghost be got him, he would have added which Begotten by one of my neighbors hear ye him. Who was the Savior be gotten by by his toe by his father or his brother or some other person. So the Holy Ghost beat, that's what the Holy Ghost be getting the Savior looks like to me, it makes me think of a story. I heard in a dramatic performance. Once that certain individual is born of one of his aunt's and he had no mother. It appears as reasonable to me as to say cousin or a fellow Laborer of the savior's begat him, as to say that the Holy Ghost be get him. Who did beget him his father and his father is our guy God and the father of our spirits. And he is the frame of the body, the God and father of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

1:23:38 Who is he? He is Father. Adam Michael, the ancient days. Has he a father? He has, has he a mother? He has now to say the Son of God was begotten by the Holy Ghost, is to say that the Holy Ghost is the is God, the Father, which is inconsistent. And contrary to all the revelations of God, both ancient and modern. So, Brigham continues to teach this in his 18, you know, throughout the 1850s but you gets a little bit of conflict with one of the members of the Quorum of The Twelve Orson. Pratt. Yeah. So Orson Pratt starts, kind of given some controversy on this and not only is Orson Pratt, but Brigham Young's kind of seeing that there are some states who are kind of struggling with this new doctoral Revelation.

1:24:27 He says, I don't have any doubt on it of it but, you know, maybe maybe it would be Better for the people. You know, if it wouldn't bring them under condemnation. If I might not have revealed, this is kind of his, his kind concern in the back of his mind, about Adam God. So and that's exactly where I was going to go next. I think we've established two things, very concretely here through the research that you brought in one is that this was something that was taught by Joseph Smith. Granted, I will say it was taught at a distance, so to speak, right? He couldn't speak boldly about It it he didn't have Brigham's blessing of being in the in the wilderness, so to speak and being able to talk about it.

1:25:12 But we know we know based on who Joseph was what his voice sounds like, so to speak, through the written word, we know that Eliza R snow said that hey the the atom God Doctrine was given to Brigham by Joseph. This wasn't something that Brigham Did Sully so we can establish it. Joseph Smith taught it. We can establish that. Brigham Young further, debt. If you had to guess through your research, how many what percentage of the saints were on board with this. And what percentage of the saints were really struggling with this Doctrine?

1:25:53 How is this received by the Saints? That's your good with the tough questions because we know that in England that it did create some problems in England, when this was published in Journal of discourses, were published in England. And so some of the conference the church were Whoa. What is what is this? These are fresh converts, who didn't have Joseph Smith kind of leading up to it and yo, wedding their feet into this Doctrine and so we do know that in England, there was quite a bit of apostasy. I don't know what the exact percentage is. But we know that there was definitely apostasy in England, where the Saints at home.

1:26:33 It's unclear to me how many accepted or rejected it, but the on the most vocal of it, Was probably Orson Pratt and I've got probably one good statement by Brigham Young. I'd like to read about that. Sure. Let me before you do that. Let me ask this was was Orson really the only apostle that that kind of bristled at the at the atom God Doctrine, you get the feeling that the rest were on board with it. I'm from I can show that basically every Apostle in early Utah was on board with it, except for maybe or Except for definitely worse than Pratt. And maybe I think abasa Lyman might have had some problems.

1:27:16 So let me ask you, this was Orson Pratt and I'm trying to think back and I'm fuzzy on it and I don't know. So if anyone in the audience who hears this has the answer, let me know, was Orson, Pratt and Apostle when Joseph Smith was alive. He was, but he was, he one thing? I would add with Orson Pratt is that you know he did have some conflicts with Joseph Smith, okay? Okay. And, you know, there was a brief time when he was excommunicated in the Nauvoo period. But then he repented and remain reconciliation with the prophet and was re given his apostleship. But he still, I don't think was, I don't think that he was in Joseph, Smith's private councils as much in 1842. 1843 Reagan sa Brigham, Young or Heber C, Kimball. Where, you know, he's not in the Holy order until December of 1843 house.

1:28:09 Partly taking all this I'm there's actually some statement showing that parley Pratt was was he that he believed that we were The Offspring of God and that you know as we actually did read one parley Pratt statement earlier about how Adam and Eve were going to preside over the holy spirit animal. Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, no. All right, go ahead. So with Orson Pratt, this is in September 17th of 1854. And so this appears to be about the beginning of or sand, Pratt's, kind of grumbling about Adam God. Oh, this isn't Wilfred woodruff's journal on September 17th 1854, brother, or soprano. Also thought that Adam was made of the Dust of the earth. Could not believe that Adam was God, or the father of Jesus Christ present, young said that he was, he came from another world and made this one Rajeev with him / took of the fruits of the earth, be at children, and they were Earthly and had mortal bodies. And if we were faithful, we should become Gods as he was. And so then Brigham, this is Brigham's, advice to Orson Pratt.

1:29:08 When you see a lot of these discussions, bring them was actually A very patient with Orson Pratt. Brigham told, Brother Pratt to lay aside, his philosophical reasoning and get Revelation from God, to govern him. And to Enlighten his mind more, it would be a great blessing to him to lay aside his books and go into the canyon. Now, some of the rest of us were doing and it would be better for him. Philosophy injured him in a measure. Many other good things were said by present young. We should, we should grow up in Revelation, so that Revelation would govern Every Act of our lives. And so, In 1858, there is actually a trial where the apostles were actually kind of wanting to cut off or some prep for being in Rebellion, to Brigham Young on this, you know, Brigham Young.

1:29:54 There was a conflict because Orson Pratt was sent back East to publish a paper and to do missionary work in kind of to reveal the principle of plural marriage to the world and to publish UNC 132 and he was told to only, you know, when you go out in the mission field. Don't get into any new things only try to explain what has been revealed through the proper channel. The priesthood and Orson Pratt instead of just doing that he goes into all sorts of his philosophical reasonings in his publication and is paper. That's hate being paid for by the church and you know any doesn't really feel sorry about that. And you know Brigham Young kind of takes exception.

1:30:36 Yeah he's kind of he's kind of a little bothered because he knows that Orson Pratt he's like when or Orson Pratt preaches upon things that he knows, he preaches Mormonism better than anyone else. And uses, you'll see that they'll say that person, perhaps writings on the pre-existence are some of the best I've ever been written defending. The doctor of the pre-existence, but then bring them says, but then Orson, Pratt gets off into things that he doesn't know. And that he has no business getting into and trying to fight what I'm teaching. And, you know, and he gets himself into trouble. And so the apostles in 1858, wanted to, you know why? To straighten your wide to discipline or subtract in some way and bringing me take him to the Woodshed so to speak and probably excommunicated.

1:31:17 Yeah, and Brigham Young was the one who kind of has like, no we need to bear with brother orison. If he cut him up into a thousand pieces, every piece of him would testify that Mormonism is true. And in 1860, they again have a couple more meetings and conflict with Orson Pratt and you see that all the apostles are supporting Brigham Young Orson, Heights us. I have no problem with Adam being my God and he says, and I don't see any conflict between what Brigham Young teaches and what Joseph Smith taught even though or sprats trying to say that there is a conflict and they basically say that Orson Pratt has been with us for so long. You know what would even do with his life if he's not you know with us anymore.

1:31:58 And so they're like he's been with us too long. We need to bear with him. If he can just promise to not teach against we know what Brigham Young has been laying out as dr. You know in that again I'm going to go back to Those are the sort of stories about Brigham Young that get lost. Right? Is granite Brigham. He's got a temper. That's again, one of the reasons I can probably identify with brick. I'm a little bit, right? It's one of those things where I'm like, I get it right. It would pardon expression. It pissed me off to write like, dude, we're funding your mission and we're funding, the printing of things, can we? If you can't get behind it, can you at least not broach the subject, right?

1:32:39 So, I get where we're bringing. Is mad, but in the same at the same time Brigham's like but I see his heart. He's a good man, right? And and I can stand to have a disagreement with a good man and I loved him and I don't want him gone. I think it just points out again bringing Humanity there. Sorry side note on that. Oh absolutely. That fits perfectly. And so in in contrast to Orson Pratt, where he's kind of making subtle statements, Would contradict the atom God Doctrine, and some of his Publications. The Saints in England were actually when you look at what they were doing, Samuel W Richards and Franklin d-- Richards who are in charge of printing in England.

1:33:23 I believe they printed the Journal of discourses, I believe. They also know that they were in charge of printing, the millennial star, their writing articles, defending the atom, God Doctrine, and there they write a lot of really beautiful stuff in defense of it. And a lot of other really great articles, you know, showing that That, you know, they had the spirit of it and they were able to, you know, work in harmony with Brigham and they were dealing with the conflict of the saints Saints, having faith crisis of Faith crisis is over there, and they are trying to, you know, try to help the Saints. And and you know, instead of doing what Orson Pratt, and fortunately was doing in Washington DC. So this is just a couple quotes from Samuel W Richards and this was in December of 1853 writes, quote that Adam is really God and why not if there are Lords, many and gods many as the scriptures inform us. Why should not our father?

1:34:18 Adam be? One of them. He is the first, the father of all the Human family and his glory will be above all for. He will be gone over all necessarily standing as he will through all eternity at the head of those who are redeemed of his great family in the patriarchal order of garment each. And every ruler is independent, in his sphere, his rule extended to those below and not to those above him in the same order. Or while the God of a numbered worlds, is acknowledged to be the his God and Father, Adam still maintains his exalted position at the head of all those who are saved from among the whole family of man and he will be God over all those who are made God's from among men and so that was Samuel, W Richards.

1:35:00 And then Franklin pretty strong. Strong supporting statement, right? Yeah, and it's actually a really great probably three or four pages long. I just picked a couple sentences. I really liked out of that. And then his brother Franklin, D Richards. Also I understand wrote. Some and so this is another article and this was in June of 1854. He writes Adam is our father and our God, but I have to say Do not trouble yourselves. Neither let the Saints be troubled about that matter. Tell the saints that if this Stone does not seem to fit into their great building of their faith, just now to to roll it aside, you can help them roll it out of their way. So they will not stumble against it while at their day.

1:35:41 Duties, and it will be by short time till they will find a place in the building where no other Stone will fit and then it will be on hand. All right, and we'll come into its place in the building of their faith with the sound of the hammer or chisel. And so I think that's really good where it's saying that if you're struggling with this, don't throw out your faith over it, just set it aside. You know, if you need to have some time to get some patients and to see where it fits if you just continue in the faith, you know, the says, the time will come where you will find the place where this will fit in the building of the Temple of your faith. I think this also points out something very interesting about Mormonism in general and why it could only come forth in America, right?

1:36:24 Because that's a very the statement you just read is a very Democratic, if you will kind of statement in the sense of we don't have to throw people out over this right, give them time, let them work with it. It's very charitable in many ways, right? You're talking about something so fundamental as the nature of God. But yet it's extended with such an olive branch of just set with this a while. Don't you don't have to to make it a issue in, which it makes or breaks your place in the kingdom of God. And it's very different than say papal decrees that are coming out of Rome.

1:37:13 Yeah. Or even calvinist type thinking, right? Where it's very to the point and this is the way. Is and and what not, I find it very interesting, how this is rolled out and and the amount of latitude that is given the Saints. In accepting that doctor. Absolutely. So, you know, and so there's occasionally some statements by Brigham Young. I think there's really only one statement it's at the October 1854 conference where Brigham Young says, I will talk as I as though, I am a Yankee guesser and he says, I will use the term they use when they say I reckon. And so he says, I reckon this about, I'm gone.

1:37:54 I reckon that about Adam God and people will take that and, you know, take a couple quotes out of that sir. And try to make it out as though Brigham Young doubted in his mind or that there was at least some sort of question or figuring out, but when you look at the sermon in its totality, it definitely does not paint that picture. There's a statement in that Sermon, Just a one-sentence statement where he says I. Okay and this yeah this is October in 8 October 1854. I tell you when you see your Your father in the heavens, you will see Adam when you see your mother, that bore your spirit, you will see mother Eve.

1:38:37 And so over the years, he made a number of statements that are like this one which is from Journal of discourses Volume 7 page 238, you've been taught Doctrine in abundance and I've sometimes thought it a pity the Lord has revealed quite as much as he has. And I can truly say that I believe if I'm guilty in any one point in my Wok, before this people, it is telling them things that they are not. Worthy of that, I've not given unto them things, which they could not receive. So when he says that he has no doubt on the doctrine, he just he thinks it's a Pity if this is going to cause some people to stumble in their faith even though he has no doubt in his mind.

1:39:17 This Revelation. So in the Salt Lake School of the prophets if it's okay to jump to there. Absolutely. And in June on June 9th 1874 they want to talk about the atom God Doctrine, because Brigham Young had Apparently just delivered a sermon on the out of God Doctrine. And so this is just a little excerpt from the Salt Lake School, the prophet minutes president Daniel H. Well said that President Brigham Young touched on certain principles and doctrines yesterday and particularly that Doctrine pertaining to Adam being our father and our God. And thought this was a proper place to call for the minds of the Brethren and learn whether we as a school endorse the doctrine. So he Daniel H Wells, bore powerful testimony of the truth of the doctrine ever marked. If he had ever received, You to testimony of any doctor in this church.

1:40:03 He had of the truth of this. The endowments plainly teach it and the Bible and other Revelations are full of it. The doctrine was approved or endorsed by Henry grow DB Huntington and Joseph F Smith. The ladder Joseph F Smith read a portion of a revelation given to the church affirming that Michael or Adam is the father of all the principal and stated that the Annunciation of that Doctrine. Gave him great, joy. Aah rally said he had never heard anyone to Spew. The doctrine to him. It was perfectly natural as was every other principle of the Gospel when understood. So, that's interesting. That's at least one person saying that he didn't ever hear any real controversy from it to answer that question. At least, one person in, Utah said, he didn't hear anyone Grumble about the atom God Doctrine.

1:40:48 Okay, so then Brigham Young comments, then he says, president Brigham, Young queried, whether the Brethren thought he was too liberal in launching out this Doctrine before the Gentiles, he was positive on the truth of the Children. But that we should be cautious about preaching on doctrines unless we fully understand them. By the power of the spirit, then they can mend themselves to the here to the hearts of our hearers. And then later on Brigham Young. He comments on some other doctrines. He said there are many Revelations given to him. They did not receive from the Prophet Joseph. He did not receive them through the urim and thummim as Joseph did but when he did receive them, he knew of their truth as much as it were possible for him to know of any truth. Hmm.

1:41:31 So so it doesn't sound like there's a whole bunch of pushback from the Saints in the Deseret territory. At that point that for the most part it seems to be very well accepted. Yeah. I think there's definitely I think especially among you know, probably the more spiritual ones who were more into the doctrine and understood and accepted what Joseph Smith is teaching. This Doctrine came Be a lot easier to them than the people who didn't really pay much attention to the deeper doctrines that had been taught by Joseph Smith, you know? And those ones were, probably be the ones who struggled with it more. And so I'm not saying there weren't any saint struggle. Because Brigham Young didn't know that there were. Yeah, but it sounds like the vast majority were were pretty pretty quick to get on board, so to speak and got a testimony of it for themselves.

1:42:25 So, let me ask you this question. Let's talk about the Significance of Adam God as much as we can. We want to be respectful to the endowment. But let's talk about the significance in which Adam God plays in the endowment and that's a good. You know, that's a good segue into that because she mentioned I know but each Wells mentioned that he thought the endowment was full of it. So you know, one of the things that you know, is I only like to mention things about the endowment, you know, I don't I don't want to trade Anything, sacred Rite, but Brigham Young did preach publicly and he did preach in the school of the prophets. He explained that there were three key characters or gods in the creation, who were Elohim Jehovah and Michael. And so, the fact that Michael is one of the key creators of this Earth.

1:43:21 And, you know, some of the accounts of the endowment in early Utah. Say that Michael is, you know, the main person who's doing the creation, That just totally supports the atom God Doctrine. And the understanding that Brigham Young taught with the endowment was that this is a father-son grandson sort of deal with the in debt with the creation and I don't have it on me, but I just recently read in one of those apologetics by I believe Samuel W Richards. He mentioned when he when he's defending the atom God Doctrine. He's refers back to the endowment ceremony and he refers to the fact that Michael is the one who's doing the creation and Michael reports back to Jehovah and Jehovah reports to Elohim.

1:44:07 And so that's something and he was endowed in Nauvoo in the Nauvoo temple. In, in the winter of 1845 to 1846, he had left for England on a mission in 1851. So that was not coming from Utah. Version of the endowment that was coming from his novel experience, being endowed. And there's a lot of other statements Like in the in the Nauvoo Temple Heber C, Kimball gave a great quote and this is okay. So this is Heber C, Kimball in the Nauvoo temple on December 21st, 1845. And this is in the book, The Nauvoo endowment companies, which is a publication of all the records and all the sermons that occurred in the Nauvoo Temple and a page. 120 of that book.

1:44:57 So, Heber C, Kimball said quote Have been. So speaking of the endowment that bunch of saints and just recently been endowed, he preaches, we have been taken as it were from the earth and have traveled until we have entered, the Celestial Kingdom and what is it for? It is to personify Adam. And you discover the our God is like one of us for he created us in his own image. Every man that has ever come upon this Earth or any other Earth will take the course we have taken. So he's saying that, you know, the endowment is to personify Adam and that's one of the key things about the early endowment. Ceremony was there are different aspects of it to kind of say that everyone in this audience, who's going through being endowed represents Adam and Eve, mhm in the ceremony. And so they're saying that this is a ceremony to teach you how to become like God, and what the gods are, what it is, to become a God and it's a recreation of the creation of the world and the Garden of Eden scenario.

1:45:54 So very very much alluding to the out of God dog. And I think that's probably why Heber C. Kimball was somebody who was very accepting of Adam God and he probably preached it. He preached it many times like Brigham Young did. And yeah, he probably was the number one Apostle, who was the defender of it right behind Brigham Young so. So I think this is a good spot to maybe take a moment and give a very cursory review of what the atom God Doctrine. Really says, okay. Incorrect. You know, if you got anything to add to this, that's great. So in you have LL him who would be the grandfather of Michael Jehovah?

1:46:40 Who's the father of Michael? And then Michael, who is our heavenly father? And God to whom we have to deal with anything sound out of sorts there too. You know. That's okay. To me the thing that should give us the most comfort with this. That this is a very family centered. Dr. Right. This is a very family-centered idea of what godhood looks like. I mean, is there anything you could almost be like, you know what, it's almost like a grandfather and a father helping out the grandson.

1:47:23 Get his start. So to speak, right to help you build a place. This is, this is for you. Here you go. You've reached this point. You're ready to go. And so, I wanted to break that down a little bit because I wanted to make sure everybody who maybe is listening to this, who hasn't really encountered the atom God, or who hasn't really looked at it understands, what it really is. That's a good point. I'm glad you wanted to make sure that's emphasized, So and I've got probably three different quotes supporting showing that that's like. Yeah, let's let's go with those. So this is Brigham Young and the school of the prophets and this is recorded in Joseph F Smith. It's Journal.

1:48:05 If I'm not mistaken, it's incomplete discourse of Brigham, Young At Its June 17th, 1871 Elohim yehovah, and Michael were father, son, and Grandson. They made this Earth and Michael became Adam. And so, then also, the women of Mormon Dumb Book which was published in 1877 with Brigham, Young's consent, Brigham Young thought the book was a great idea and approved of it is book set and it's, you know, Edward to literacy author. But it's argued he had. Collaboration with Eliza R snow and other Relief Society leaders in writing this book. So it says, Adam is a great Archangel of this creation. He is Michael, he is the ancient days. He's the father of our elder brother. Jesus Christ.

1:48:49 The father of him who shall also come as Messiah to rain. He's the father of the spirits as well as the Tabernacles of the Son and Daughters of man. Adam, Michael is one of the grand mystical names in the works of creation redemptions and Resurrection. Jehovah is the second and higher name, and Elohim signifying the gods, as the first or and I put in Brackets or highest name of the celestial Trinity. Michael was a Celestial resurrected being of another world. And so then even earlier as early, as I mentioned the 7w Richards in Billy that's 1853. Also teach understanding the endowment that way.

1:49:29 And you also have apostate, John Hyde in his book Mormonism, its leaders. And Designs says Joseph is the God of this generation. Jesus is his God. Michael or Adam is Jesus Is God and Father, and Jehovah is the god of Adam and Jehovah is inferior to Elohim, who isn't turned subject to the Grand Council of the assembled gods of infinity. So just some supporting quotes there helping it throw off your. Okay? So now that we've blown the mind of whatever well taught LDS person, That Jehovah is actually the father of Michael.

1:50:11 What would you say to them right now as they're reeling hearing this for the first time? Yeah. That can be a big shock to a lot of people who have really dug into the modern LDS endowment and really look at that thing. As scripture in the unfortunate reality is that the endowment has undergone many significant changes over time and the the doctrine that Elohim equals God, the father and Jehovah equals Jesus. Understanding of the endowment is something that really was not formulated until the early 1900s, and we're going to cross that bridge. When we get there, I want to stay in this time frame for right now whenever when all the parts and pieces are together in the endowment because you bring up a good point which is the endowment has gone through many changes Rio.

1:51:00 I should say the modern-day LDS endowment has gone through many, many changes and it's my opinion. Being someone who has received the endowment in a temple from a fundamentalist group. We need to change that name to Orthodox just because fundamentalism carry such a negative connotation now. But anyway in a temple of a fundamentalist church is that something that Ben Shafer is said before about? I like the term Orthodox. Yes exactly. What Ben and I are are in the same church, he's great. He is great. I love been to death. I could sit and listen. The been all day long. But anyway, as a guy in myself, who's taken the LDS endowment and then also taken the full endowment, I know exactly what the LDS church was trying to do, which is they are trying to strip that thing of anything that had anything at all to do with the Adam God Doctrine on that subject. So it's funny is, I know an individual who left fundamentalism and went back to the church. And you wanted to just kind of have this little box of truth and not have to get into any of the fundamentalist doctrines and his wife was like, I don't know why he doesn't want to go to the temple.

1:52:20 Let's go to the temple. Let's go to the temple and he goes, he goes and he told me. He says, she doesn't realize that I don't want to go to the temple because that throws all of this fundamentalism back in my face. All of these things because it's all still hidden there, even though there's been so much stripped and there's been layers added to try to kind of Use case you know? Yeah and it's all over the place, right? And if you have a working knowledge of of Adam God you're still going to see it, there's no way to get rid of it, right? You'd have to completely change the entire drama so to speak because it's all over the place, all over the place and and it's in an effort not to trample upon sacred things.

1:53:06 I can't go into a lot of it, but it's still there. R and so in this timeframe, there there's even a lecture at the veil and without again, trampling on sacred things. It's kind of a summary of everything that has happened into the temple to that moment and it is Laden with Adam, God Doctrine. I mean, it is an explanation of the atom God Doctrine, and it's an explanation of why it's important to us. So, In my estimation that could be like the golden period for Mormonism, right? Because you have it all, you have Adam God, you have law of consecration, you have plural marriage.

1:53:54 It's all there, it's all functioning. It's all working. What happens Jacob when when do things start going off? The rails. Let's not jump to the 1900's right away. Let's look at that. 20-year period. Right before that only 20 years where things begin to go off the rails in your estimation. What happens. So I would say that they're actually, you know, so great thing pointing out, you know, lecture the veil that kind of shows that Brigham Young didn't have any doubt in his mind about Adam God's truthfulness because he goes and he effectively canonize has it as being a temple teaching meaning that it's might not be something for the world, but something all the saints should be. It should be taught and should.

1:54:40 And so he goes and he spent several weeks in the last, this is the last year of Brigham Young's life in 1877. And he wants to spend several weeks getting this lecture, or eats going through the temple ceremony and wide to make sure everything is laid out perfectly. And he says, I want to give you an ensample to carry out an all the temples until the coming of the son of man and he has his son Brigham Young Junior, he has Wilford Woodruff and he has L Jon Udell. All working together with him. To basically summer, you know, basically formulate the ceremonies to make sure everything's right. And one of the things they do and this is right as the st. George temples being completed, you know, they've gone probably, you know, almost 30 years without without a temple.

1:55:25 They had the endowment house in early Utah. But Brigham Young said, you know, to really experience this. You need a full Temple and so they're getting the st. George temple. You know, basically completed an 1877 and dedicated and you Through and he's completing all the ceremonies and he goes through and he wants this lecture, the veil laid out to really summarize the core aspects of the atom God Doctrine and teach it to the Saints. And so that became part of the temple ceremony, not just in the st. George temple, but it also became Incorporated in say the Salt Lake Temple. When the Salt Lake Temple was completed as well as the other temples that they that were completed in that early Utah time period. So but there was actually Lee.

1:56:11 They were teaching these doctrines before 1877 in the temple. There was always kind of explanation lecture kind of summarizing what you learned in this endowment right before they do the veil ceremony. And you know, this was just kind of canonizing it. He wanted a written account of this doctrine that will be not deviated from but would be red and all the temples to kind of explain what the endowment is supposed to teach you about our relationship to Michael Adam. Right. And, and It's yeah. I mean you can't have a Mormon temple experience. Let me rephrase that I think it's really hard to get the ideas.

1:56:55 That Joseph Smith were trying to communicate through temples without a working understanding of the the atom God Doctrine. So, let's let's now look at that, that twenty fifteen to twenty year period. Where something happens, right? And you begin to see the beginnings, I don't know how to put it. I try to be gentle but the beginnings of apostasy within the church itself, right? What what in your estimation what happens here? What's the Catalyst for that happening? So one thing I would add is that Brigham Young? Was not the only Prophet that taught the atom God Doctrine, correct. Because because we know John Taylor, did you know, Wilfred Woodruff did and clear up to Joseph Smith if I'm not mistaken?

1:57:48 Yeah. And I think we read in the Salt Lake School of prophets minutes where Joseph F Smith for his testimony of it right and that was 1873 so yeah this is something that the leader still continued to understand and teach but maybe they weren't as public about it but we do. You know that John Taylor and say George Q Cannon, according to the George Q Cannon journals. That were just released a couple of years ago there were a couple Adam God statements he writes in his journal including I had a great conversation with President Taylor about our Father in heaven and he puts in parentheses Adam and I'm like man if only I could have been a fly on the wall to hear that conversation between John Taylor and George Q Cannon. Talk about how Adam is our father and has. So let me ask you this what was the impetus What was the cause because you get the feeling okay. Joseph's got to play it.

1:58:41 Cool, so to speak, right? While he's in Nauvoo because he understands there's there's enemies within the congregation, right? There's people coming to hear him speak who are looking to hang him later with his own words. So he's got to be reserved. Brigham gets out west. And it's like, you know what? It's just us. We're going to let this fly, right? And he just gives it And then something happens like you were saying where they're not as public with it again. What is the reason that they all the sudden pulled back a little bit, where Brigham was so bold now they're pulling back, I'm part of it might have been that the Joseph fights, the are LDS church who followed Joseph Smith, the third of the profits son who and they basically reject all the Nauvoo doctrines. They reject the pre-existence plural, marriage and diamonds Temple.

1:59:33 Emily's. They reject the whole shebang, not just plural marriage and they come out kind of batting against Adam God. And I've heard, some people say that Joseph Smith, the third probably preached against Adam God possibly as much as Brigham Young preached for it. You know they thought it was something to ridicule and Helen Mark Kimball as one of Joseph Smith's plural wives she writes kind of Defense of Utah Mormonism and she's kind of bottling Joe. Ozzie Smith at third and saying that. Look at this 1839 sermon by your father about Adam and look at all these things. He's saying about. This wasn't Brigham Young that started this this came from your dad.

2:00:14 You were attacking what your dad taught and so but there seemed to be kind of a shift where they're thinking, maybe we should keep this Doctrine not as much for the world who will ridicule it, but it should be something that's. The Saints should know. And so it's something that was more emphasized in a private Temple setting or ask The Profit setting and not so much in public sermons as you saw in the 1850s when they were kind of more isolated from the world and they had that privacy and that freedom to be as open as they wanted about. What? So, you think it was, probably one of those things where it's like, look, we throw this at anybody who wants to hear about the gospel and we're going to lose them right away. This just like we when I say we I mean the early Saints had to be brought to this point in increments line upon line precept upon Um, precept, so a Converse going to as well.

2:01:06 So it probably starts off with some pretty noble intentions, right? Yeah. And, and nonetheless, it withdrawals, a little, it comes back to being more of a It's less talked about as well. I'm trying to say so we've kind of established why that happened now? Tell me why. Tell me when in your mind I certainly have mine when the LDS church decides we're done with Adam God. So I would say that because we're trying to, you know, don't want to go on forever. I would say that you do see John Taylor is still, it's still in the temple under John Taylor, he's talking with George Q, Cannon about, Adam God, George Q Cannon. This still teaching his son, Adam, God, it's still something that they believe in, there's actually a sermon that that John Taylor gives.

2:02:06 I don't know if it's a private setting, I assume it is, in January 13th 1880, where he explains, Adam God and says that came from Joseph Smith. I don't know if that would be something you'd be interested. In. So this is an L John nuttall's, diary andaluz sheet of paper, at the end of his 1879 diary here Accords, kind of the sermon by John Taylor, or notes from it. He says, I hurt. So this is John Taylor speaking. I heard Joseph Smith say the atom is the ancient days spoken of by Daniel Joseph treat, traced the priesthood from Adam and so this is interesting referring back to 1839 thing to Peter, James, and John. And then to Joseph and all who have held a portion of the priesthood would have to give an account.

2:02:50 Their stewardship or priesthood to the one from whom they received it, rendering up an account of your stewardship to the one that preceded you but you do not. Give up your priesthood. Adam heard. The voice of the Lord walking in the garden. Adam had a God then. And when we get to God our Father, we are told to approach him. In the name of Jesus, Adam is the father of our bodies who is to say, he is not also the father of our Spirits. So John Taylor, believed in this and Wilford Woodruff So believed in the atom God, Doctrine. Just as he wouldn't be rich, I doubt you'd be recording it in as friendly terms in his journal. As he did as Brigham preached it. If he didn't believe in it, he called Brigham Young's October 1854.

2:03:33 Sermon on Adam God one of the greatest sermons that had ever been preached and he defended it in the school of the prophets as well quick quote from him, he said I wish to refer to the first Doctrine preach that Adam was our father and God in the Revelation called the olive leaf. And that's DNC 88. It says the devil gathered together. The hosts of hell and Michael the Archangel gathered together, the host of heaven. And he overcame the devil and his angels and this is the Battle of the great God. And so that's another early revelation of Joseph Smith that he's citing to support Adam Garden. He citing that in the school of the prophets on January 24th 1868.

2:04:14 So by the time, you know, Wilfred what, John Taylor has to go into hiding and so, So, and he dies in hiding, unfortunately, from the effects of that and admins Tucker. Yep. Yep. Because he wouldn't cave in, on the principles that God had revealed to him, right? And he said, the Lord had directed him that he must sustain them. So after John Taylor passes away, Wilford Woodruff becomes the next president of the church and there actually is a controversy about 1891 1892 about the atom God Doctrine under Wilford Woodruff, which was the No known as the bunker Bill trial, where Edward bunker senior and Edward bunker, Junior, a bunker Bill. We're kind of teaching that the temple ceremony was wrong, for teaching the atom, God Doctrine and Wilford Woodruff and George Q.

2:05:05 Cannon actually end up going down there to correct. Edward bunker on this thing. I believe it was the sun. I'm not sure if the father actually got corrected but they go down and they say no this is a Doctrine and it's Uh, dr. Of the temple. And don't, you know, you shouldn't be teaching against the temple Doctrine. Even if you might have disagreements with it and George Q Cannon actually goes out and does some great apologetics defending the atom God Doctrine against Edward bunker and so, you can see that the first presidency of that time is still defending the atom God Doctrine. But by 1892, they're saying it's true, but don't teach it in the sunday-school city.

2:05:50 Or it's. So if you're saying that we can't teach it to children as they're being raised in the gospel, you know that's going to create problems when they you know, grow up and all of a sudden go through the temple on now. Their entire. Yeah. They don't have any foundation to godhood, it's shattered. Yeah. If you don't prepare your kids and raise them up in the truth that you understand it, you know, are you really going to expect them to be able to carry on the gospel as you had received it? And so that's probably the The first, you know, the the first nail in the coffin of Adam, God is saying, don't teach in the Sunday schools then I believe it's in general conference in 1895 Wilford Woodruff guy gets up and he says you know there's all these people who are having all these questions about the who God is to Adam is who Christ is who Jehovah is? He says leave it all alone.

2:06:44 It shouldn't concern us you. We shouldn't be getting into contentions about these matters and we You know, you know, and so he basically is saying that you shouldn't even be worrying about the Mysteries or understanding these things as they have been taught. He still, it's still being taught in the temple at this time, but they're starting to say, stop teaching. This stop arguing about this. Stop worrying about this and you know, this is how a lot of principles start to go away in the 1890s. Adam God is one of those principles. I want to stop there for just a second because I think that that how Adam God comes under attack and this time is so important as a lesson to us as anybody within Mormon them, because it shows what's happening to the country as a whole right now, right?

2:07:39 And that is I will I will never not say that. I think some obviously, there's some people whose whose intentions are Nefarious, but by and large, I think most people are like trying to help out trying to make things better, but we all know the old saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right? And unity for Unity sake. Isn't necessarily a good thing all the time, right? And, and we see that definitely here. When it comes to the atom God Doctrine, plural, marriage, the early church teachings because they're like look, let's stop arguing. About it, right?

2:08:21 I'm sure at this point Mormonism, starting to gain some more followers from outside of Utah, and rather than work with these people. They're like, let's just not talk about it, and let's be unified on the things we can be unified on, but your unifying on wrong principles now because of that, and I think that's a very important point to make. Because so often, we're told just be United, just be United. Well, there's some principles that are worth fighting for This would have been one of them and we can see the Folly. I am very compassionate and charitable towards Wilford Woodruff because I feel like he was putting a no-win situation and it took me a long time to get over my anger towards Wilfred, just like it took me a while to get over my anger towards the LDS Church. Having said that, I can comfortably say you probably made some mistakes in the sense of you probably should just planted your flag on the truth and come hell or high water. We're going to go with that.

2:09:23 And I again I think it's just a super important lesson that that there's some things that are worth fighting for and unity for Unity sake. Isn't necessarily a good thing and I think the church is still, the LDS church is still fighting that fight. Only this time, they're fighting it on. Things that are so fundamental, right? Things like gay marriage things like where we're going to fit into the society, given the the vaccine mandates, those sorts of things instead of standing on truth and planning our flag. And I find it interesting that that's what happened with the atom God Doctrine. And that's what's happening right now, with some of those other issues I just mentioned Yeah, absolutely.

2:10:07 So you still have so they're starting to pull back from Adam God. But you still have the leaders privately affirming their belief in it Edward Stevenson in. Is this okay? Yeah, okay, cool. I was just yeah, please do, yeah. So Edward Stephenson is Journal. I believe in 1897 or 1898 is meeting with the lens of snow and talking to him about the endowment and They're sharing their ideas about different things and talking about Adam and the relationship. He held to the other creators in the other gods in the endowment. And you also have Brigham Young Junior who apparently also believed in Adam God like his father he in 1897 writes, a couple journal entries about meetings of the Quorum of The Twelve in the first presidency showing that they still privately believed in it. Even if they weren't as public about it at that time. So on October 12th. 1897 he records present Lorenzo Snow LED out on an atom being our father and God how beautiful the thought it Rock.

2:11:15 God nearer to us, brother. Franklin D, Richard said it made him thrill through his whole body. It was new and it was inspiring. I mean so that's kind of interesting. It's not I'm not sure what new met in that context. He might have thought that was new revelation to the restoration because Franklin D Richards was defending him back in the 1850s so That's one entry in the, another entry on December 16th 1897 and this kind of might show that kind of persecution and criticism by the our earliest Church might have factored into then not talking about it as much. And so this quote is in Brigham, Young Juniors journal and might have been Wilford Woodruff speaking and I'm not quite sure but it was just kind of summarizing the council meetings agreement, Adam is our father and God and no use to discuss it with the Joseph fights.

2:12:05 Or anyone else, huh? So that's kind of showing that pullback of. We know this is true but we're not going to really talk about it as much anymore. Yeah, probably one of the last. It's again it seems like a sad withdrawal from the battlefield of ideas. Yeah, so probably one of the last public sermons on Adam. God was probably in 1895 in, this is just kind of a mentioned as he accepted it and so this is Orson F Whitney who was the son of Helen Mark? Kimball. So grandson of Heber C Kimball. He made this statement on June 9th 1895 and so this is we have been great if The other leaders at this time would have also embraced the truth like in publicly like Orson if Whitney does.

2:12:54 And so this was published in the collective discourses. He said, quote, Mormonism teaches that the world's on hide the stars that Glitter in the blue Vault of Heaven, our kingdoms of God that they were once Earth's like this. That they have been redeemed and glorified by the same laws, the same principles are applied to this planet, by which it will Ascend to a perfected and glorified state it teaches that those Worlds are people with human beings, God's sons and daughters, and every husband and father, may become an atom and every wife and a mother and Eve, to some future Planet. So, you know, unfortunately, because they're not talking about it anymore. The, there's seems to be by the early 1900's leaders are not as familiar with it, you know, only takes them like, a decade or so, for this to kind of fall out from, you know, the it's, you have a leaders agreeing about it in a T97, probably 10 years, 15 years later they are, you know, it's totally absent. And of course you're also having the older leaders pass away, you know Wilfred Woodruff Lorenzo Snow all the you know Franklin D Richards not to mention John W, Taylor's excommunicated. Yeah yeah.

2:14:04 So Brigham Young Junior passes away if I'm understanding correctly and so you kind of have the Old Guard died out and without the Old Guard as much those who don't believe in. Adam God are able basically say that it wasn't ever really Doctrine and it was just kind of something that was an opinion that wasn't ever ratified as as church doctrine you know and we don't really know. One really has to believe in. It was kind of what Joseph F Smith started to say when he became a member of the first presidency and as he actually was a member of the first presidency under near the end of Brigham Young's life use that as a counselor, he was a counselor under John Taylor and wolf. Woodruff, but it wasn't really until probably the end of Wilfred woodruff's life that he's starting to feel kind of confident to basically say that, you know, Adam God isn't really a doctrine that people have to believe in anymore. So, and that might come across a surprising, because didn't we just read in the school of the prophets in, 1873 he supported the atom God Doctrine.

2:15:09 Well, some people think and I think that there's reason to believe it that Orson Pratt. After Brigham Young died or about that time started to privately tutor Joseph. F Smith in his doctoral idea. I see and so Orson. Pratt started saying, this is what I believe and this is what I believe and I can support it with this, you know, idea in the scripture and this saying, of Joseph Smith. And so he starts to try to fill Joseph F Smith with Orson Pratt ideas. So so Joseph estimate is actually converted over or some Pratt's, way of thinking. Yeah, and you actually do see a Statement in 1878 and George Q Cannon Journal where Pratt and Joseph F Smith are basically subtly trying to say that you know that the president of the church doesn't have a right to advance any new doctrines without the unanimous consent of the Quorum of the twelve and George do cannons. Hearing him preach this Joseph F Smith. Preach this in a sermon.

2:16:09 He says, I can't help but think that he's suddenly referring to Brigham Young with this. And I talked to my brother and my brother also thinks that he was probably referring to Brigham Young about this. And so then they had a meeting of the Quorum of The Twelve later that day and they bring it up and there's kind of a bit of a argument or discussion at the very least of this conflicting views between Orson Pratt and Joseph F Smith versus kind of the rest of the Quorum of The Twelve who felt that, some of the ideas that they had about different things, were different than what had been taught up that time. And they felt that I think that they knew that Joseph. F Smith and Orson Pratt were trying to be careful because probably the rest of the men in that room believed in Adam God and would have said hey we all did except it the only person you did it was you know or stand proud over there. You know this was something that Brigham Young mentioned in a quorum of The Twelve prayer circle before he preached it over General Conference in 1852.

2:17:09 So it seems that John Joseph. F Smith is becomes converted to a lot of different different ideas, Advanced my Orson Pratt. Okay, let me summarize to make sure I'm a that I'm understanding this correctly and and make sure that we're all on the same page here. So our best guess at how this really falls out of favor. Is that one you have Orson Pratt at the very beginning, who's kind who's pretty outspoken against the atom God Doctrine, to they stopped teaching it in the Sunday school's, right? So, they're not teaching it to the kids. You have the old guard that dies off. By the time Joseph Smith is there. It hasn't been taught for a long time and so, most likely the up-and-coming leadership.

2:18:01 It freaks them out probably when they go to the temple and they hear about Adam God and they're not sure what to do with it. You have Joseph F Smith who's being tutored by Orson Pratt after the death of the La Voz Old Guard and he's kind of converted to orson's way of thinking. So now we see kind of how the doctrine begins to lose favor with in Mormon, do Mormon them, is that, is that a fairly good synopsis are? Yeah, that's a really good synopsis of what we all. Just what we just covered perfect. And that's why I want to do. Not that you didn't explain it well but because I'm slow and I need, no, it's a dad that summary so. So now let's move on to the early part of the 1900s and this to me is where the LDS church probably puts the death nail in the coffin or tries to put the death nail in the coffin of the atom God. Doctor, what would you say that is so I think probably the first thing that Joseph F Smith.

2:19:01 Does. It's something that occurs during the time that he is the president of the church is the lecture. The veil is largely removed from the temple. And it seems that the the way that this first started was, I started to only give the full lecture at the veil on like two different days of the week. When there was going to be a lot of younger people going through the temple for the first time, but when they were doing work for the dead, they wanted to give kind of an Deviated version of the lecture. The veil that doesn't really get into all that Adam God stuff. And so they have introduced a previous version of the lecture, the veil. And then it seems that at some point in time under Joseph F Smith, they stopped giving the full like sure.

2:19:47 The veil that goes into the atom, God Doctrine. And so, there's an abbreviated lecture, the veil and that actually continues probably in that abbreviated form. Where it's literally only like three or four sentences instead of, you know, page and a half. Half or two pages worth of teachings about the rate about Adam and God in the creation and the endowment. So it's really true indicated to almost nothing and that probably is what lays the foundation for. You know, it's not even taught in the temple anymore. So where is it being taught nowhere? And so Joseph, F Smith about a decade after becoming president of the church in the April 1912. On Friends basically gets up and he and other church leaders at that time he and his counselors, if I'm not mistaken get up and they give some talks kind of against the atom God Doctrine and say that you know this is something that if if Brigham Young taught it was his own opinion. It isn't we don't think it's supported supported by the scriptures.

2:20:56 So we are going to say that this should no longer be taught and you should only Each, what is plainly in the scriptures and any of those old Patriarchs who continue to teach that the atom, God Doctrine should be called up before the High Council and tried. And if they don't, and if they don't refuse, if they refuse to stop teaching this and they should be cut off from the church. Okay? And so this is on April 8 8 1912 and there's a bunch of different leaders who You speak, who record about this conference in their journals. So at the Ivan's records, that there's a special priesthood meeting Bishop o p, Miller spoke on tithing, Bishop David A Smith recommends. I didn't record the full slot there, present Penrose, spoke on tithing and the atom God Theory, present Smith, Adam God Doctrine, not a doctrine of the church. So in the probably the most detailed account of this was in the Thomas Clausen journal, on April, same day, April 8. 1912. So, Charles Penrose, read a letter that the first presidency had we had read the letter.

2:22:08 The first presidency had received regarding the atom God doctrine, that some Patriarchs were going about teaching this, the people, this Doctrine, he then read from the Doctrine, and Covenants, showing that God was not Adam, but the father of Adam and that Jesus Christ and all. And and, and that Jesus Christ in the spirits of men, he said, Brigham Young did not qualify his remarks which were taken in longhand and there may have been something. Which unless further explained might be construed. So there's the beginning of maybe Brigham Young was misquoted. We can't trust that he was quoted correctly there so then Joseph F Smith gets President Joseph F Smith and said that he was in full Accord with what Penrose had said and that President Brigham Young. When he delivered that sermon only expressed his own views and that they were not corroborated by the word of the Lord. In the standard works of the church, the Bible Book of Mormon and pearl, great price and the Doctrine and Covenants were voted upon On by the church, in conference devoted, Cormac by corn and the body of the church were asked to sustain those above books as the standards of the church. There's first most was taken by the church in the East. It was taken in the same manner here in Salt Lake later in the year.

2:23:15 Now, all Doctrine, if it can't be established by these standards is not to be taught or promulgated by members that those Patriarchs who persisted and teaching these things that did not stop. When told the do show should be handled by their Bishops and their name sent up to the high councils for Action and be cut off. So this is the first strong stance where it's like, we are done with this. We are not messing with this. Any further is during Joseph Smith's tenure as president of the LDS church. Yes, it's very unfortunate to see him go from having a testimony of it and 1873 to being very not only opposed to it but opposed to anyone else believing or teaching it in the church it gives new meaning to the scripture even the Very elect could be deceived and the other place I was looking at where I think the LDS church goes out of their way to get rid of the atom.

2:24:12 God Doctrine is when Talmadge is commissioned to write, Jesus. The Christ because that is the first official book. That is sanctioned by the LDS church that comes out and says no, no, no. Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. And, and to me, that's where that's where it it's done, right? It outside of fundamentalist circles is when that happens, right? Because that's one of the only books missionaries to this day can take out in the field with other than the scriptures is Jesus, the Christ, right?

2:24:56 It's almost mandatory reading and so you get into that, And you really begin to understand. Now that this is where The the modern definition of the creation God head so to speak from the temple drama and from the understanding of who God really is, is replaced with this Jehovah Jesus. This Jehovah is Jesus Doctrine. Yeah. What what's tragic is? Joseph F Smith came up with, you know, he expressed the doctor idea of divine investiture that the guy It's are so United in their work and in their mission that they can they share all the credit with each other.

2:25:43 You know, Adam might not have made every single Galaxy we see in the night sky but the gods are so United that you know, they they share the glory and the credit for all of their creation. And so in that context, Jesus Christ can speak as though he's representing the godhead and in that context, you also have an angel in the Book of Revelation. Where, who With that same Divine investiture speaks as though he's Jesus Christ, even though he is not Jesus Christ. He's just delivering a message for Jesus Christ. And so what's tragic is you have this, you know, they're trying to say we have certain things in the scriptures that seem to contradict the atom God Doctrine.

2:26:25 But they also had this beautiful framework for harmonizing and understanding those same scriptures, which they unfortunately did not use in. A Shinto atom and the atom God Doctrine. And you have to wonder if at least part of it was there trying to fit in with normal society. They're trying to become more like mainstream Christianity and Adam, God is something that kind of puts them outside of the pale of, you know, traditional Christianity. And you know, they're trying to make those hard times and you know that separation from the world go away. If they're trying to be accepted by American culture and I worked I think Think you're right.

2:27:06 I think I think you're onto something. Right right there. And and I guess if there's one thing to say to their credit, it's that they did. Make that change very rapidly, right? Where Mormonism went from Something On The Fringe to something that was very, you know, very standard within America. Now, we've established when the doctrine started who taught it, we talked about Brigham Young's tenure. We talked about how it kind of, you know, ties And with temple, we talked about how it fell out of favor. Let's talk about now. What are the ramifications of losing that Doctrine in the main LDS church? Well, probably one of the biggest ramifications is that, you know, if Brigham Young got this thing so wrong. You know, we really can't trust anything that any of the early prophets taught, you have some people, some apologists who reject Joseph Smith's teachings on God wants being a man and they're being gods above God, the father, because if we can throw out what, Brigham Young taught about God. You know, what, why can't we think that break Joseph Smith was just teaching his own opinion on, in some of his sermons and you can basically, you know, rationalize away all of the most beautiful unique doctrines of the restoration or uncomfortable.

2:28:31 If you happen to find it uncomfortable, you can rationalize it away. Yeah, exactly. It all depends on your perspective if you, you can either look at it as A beautiful new truth that's been revealed in the dispensation of the fulness of times or restored because I think a lot of these things are Restorations of ancient truths have been lost or you can look at it as this is doesn't fit with, you know what I you know what my neighbors and what the theologians you know before Joseph Smith taught about God and doesn't really fit in that framework. So I want to talk just a second about what you said because I think I think you're 100% correct that it throws into doubt. Everything any profits ever said, except Russell, I'm Nelson.

2:29:20 Right. If you consider Russell, I'm Nelson. You can discount everything before that because this was about the same time, right? When they finally get rid of Adam God and they think they put the death nail in the coffin, in the LDS church. This is about the time. They also come out with this idea of, it doesn't matter what a prophet said before the current profit. That's when you know Wilfred Woodruff really emphasize that with the manifesto was, yeah, the profit will never lead you astray. You know, you you heard that a little bit but then it really ramped up about the 1900s, right? As quote, mainstream Mormonism is trying to modernize so to speak. Yeah, under Heber J.

2:30:04 Grant was said the, the quote by, I believe it's Mary Ann Romney, who said that. Always keep your eye on the president of the church and if he ever Ask you to do something that's wrong and you do it. You will be blessed to do something. Exactly. And it basically encouraged this blind obedience. Exactly. And and, and now one of Joseph Smith's comments was, you can always judge a true Prophet by if what he says agrees with a pre The Profit before him. Right? Kind of one of those things you can receive new revelation but you don't get to cancel old Revelation so to speak and me building upon the previous. Exactly. Exactly.

2:30:45 And so now we have a complete Turnover of that right where all of the sudden it doesn't matter what the other Prophet said before because the only Prophet that should matter to you is the one that is living right now. Well, if that's the case, why Revere Joseph Smith, why Revere Brigham Young, why Revere Wilford Woodruff or any of the others, right? It doesn't matter, but they are still very good about cherry-picking surging things that they do agree with. So it Really cast doubt upon those other prophets. And I think what it does is it makes apostasy for Latter Day Saints today, much easier because they can say, well, if that prophets wrong about Adam God this Prophet could be wrong on his stance against gay marriage so it throws in Mormonism into this. Kind of strange Progressive religion, and I say progressive. I mean, like leftist, kind of kind of scenario where it can really be damaging to the underlying pinnings of what Mormonism really is.

2:32:05 One thing that I saw just this weekend and I'm so glad I was wanting to have you on like, a week earlier, but I'm glad it was today that you came on and let me explain you why? Just last night, I was reading kind of the synopsis from General Conference. And last night session was the Women's Conference set session. And right now, there is a big push in mainstream ISM to understand heavenly mother. And the apostle that spoke, I believe it was renlund said, you don't have to worry about it, we don't know that much.

2:32:49 One of the greatest ramifications, I think of doing away with the atom God Doctrine. Is it? No longer makes Not only Heavenly Father relatable. It doesn't make heavenly mother relatable. When he says, we don't know much about it. I want to say. Yeah, you do. You just don't don't want to admit that the atom God Doctrine is correct because if the atom God Doctrine is correct. Well, guess what? That means Adam is Heavenly Father and heavenly mother or at least one of them is Eve and we actually have her words in scripture in places or at least in the temple ceremony and it completely has set us back as a people. I firmly believe because my wife was talking about it with me the other night.

2:33:44 She said the nice thing about the atom God Doctrine, is that That it's very empowering to women in the sense that we know who heavenly mother is. And we know how important and vital her role was, and she's our pattern. Right? And and that's done away with Absolutely. Yeah. You know that as you said you know there's just you know, Brigham Young is probably the prophet You Preach more on heavenly mother than any other prophet and you know, they just it's all there if you wanted to look for it, you know, a couple quotes you want one, quote, sure, yeah.

2:34:27 I don't want to go on forever, but This idea of the Divine potential for women is laid out in so many different quotes. He said for here's one of them said as to the great wedding brother or some Pratt has been telling us about is nothing more or less than this Adam's father came to him set and said, here's the wife you've had for so long. Now you're going to have one wife to take with you to Yonder where Earth and if any of your other wives ever, go to an earth to become the mother of all living to become an eve, it will be to another Earth. Not to that one. She is called Eve because she is the mother of all living and she is the queen of that Earth.

2:35:09 Adam is the lord of the earth and the father of all living In this earth as Eve is the mother of all living on this Earth. And another quote, he said this one was directed to the sisters, and this is in general, discourse is volume 8, he said many of the sisters grieve because they are not blessed with Offspring. You will see the time when you have millions of children around you, if you are faithful to your covenants, you will be mothers of Nations. You will become Yves to Earth's like this. And when you have assisted in people, in one Earth, there are millions of are still in the course of creation. Yeah, and we want end and mainstream LDS.

2:35:50 The mainstream LDS church has lost that they have lost the opportunity to be able to give those answers. And I think it's an absolute travesty in some ways, right? I think because of that and the way the atom God Doctrine was done away with it. Allowed for even in my opinion, some abuses. The parts of men, I really do. I think you can draw pretty, pretty significant line there. Let's we've been at this now. Two hours and 40 minutes. So let's go ahead and, and let's wrap up. I'm I just want to leave with my testimony of the atom God doctor. And if you want to leave with yours, I think that would be great.

2:36:35 A great way to wrap this up. I just want to Bear testimony that for me, the atom God Doctrine does so much. It makes my God, and my heavenly father, so personal. I know that he is. Through everything that I have went through. And it adds an extra component, right? That not only. Is he my heavenly father? The father of my spirit. He's the father of my body. And I know how I love my kids and I'm probably not capable of the kind of feelings that he's capable of in his State. And if I love my kids as much as I do, then he must love us tremendously.

2:37:22 The atom God Doctrine. For me has made my heavenly father. So personal that it has enriched my relationship with him and ways. That couldn't have been done without this Doctrine. And I know it's true. And I leave that with whoever is listening, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Jacob, the last word is yours. I agree with everything you just said and that it brings God nearer to us and it makes our relationship with God. Even more tangible and more real and furthermore it plays out, you know, our divine Destiny and more real terms to what we are to do. And attain to in the course of Eternal progression. I'm so grateful for this Doctrine and the knowledge that has been preserved and passed down to this to us. And I say this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

2:38:13 Amen. Thanks everybody for tuning in, we'll talk to you next time.