Oct. 17, 2023
Episode #94-ADDENDUM: CORRECTION & CLARIFICATION W/TAYLOR SMITH
Taylor Comes Back On To Correct An Incident Mentioned & Make Some Clarifications
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Taylor, how's it going, man?
Oh, hanging in there.
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Thanks a lot for having me back
on for this quick addendum,
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Dave.
No problem.
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No problem.
Sounded like it's something that
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needed to happen.
So definitely, let's get her.
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Let's get her rolling.
Yeah.
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And and just before we dive in,
I'd like to apologize to
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everyone for having to bring
this subject up again so soon.
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I I'm.
It wasn't my intent.
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But I've just had some people
point out some things I got
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wrong, and I want to own that.
So I I asked Dave if I could
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take just 1015 minutes, because
I want to be as honest and fully
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transparent about everything as
I possibly can.
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So there was one comment in
particular that in hindsight, I
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wish I hadn't made in that in
the previous episode.
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And so I'd like to set the
record straight about it, and
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then afterward address a couple
other points.
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So this clip is 28 seconds long.
It starts at the three hour, 41
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minute and 35 second time stamp
on the last episode.
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I'm just gonna play it real
quick so it's fresh in all of
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our minds as they they're part
of the community, a
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fundamentalist community.
And it was very divisive a lot.
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Even his Blood Brothers, a lot
of his Blood Brothers were very
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critical, especially at first of
that decision that he made.
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And you know, they were.
One brother offered to cut off
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his head like it was literally
that degree of of extremism in
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the in this conversation I I'm
not so I just wanted to make
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sure that everybody is clear
that's what I'm going to be
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speaking to 1st off and so just
for the record.
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First off, I did not lie that
comment was made in writing, and
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multiple witnesses have
corroborated that it did happen.
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And when I first read it, it was
just on a discussion group that
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I was invited to, and I really
could hardly believe my eyes.
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I figured it had to be a joke.
I mean who offers to to cut off
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their brother's this, this was
on like a messaging.
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App, right.
Correct.
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Yes and and.
But so the fact that it was said
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even in jest made me wonder.
If there was any possibility
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there that there was something
darker involved, because I like
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I say I don't know the person
who said it personally.
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So you didn't know it was
ingested at the time, correct?
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I mean, how do you take it for
serious?
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I mean, I did not know for sure
it was a joke, but so yeah, so I
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have had multiple assurances
from mutual friends in the last
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two days that it absolutely was
just a joke and and so like,
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just in hindsight, I wish I
hadn't mentioned it.
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Or that I would have known to
call out absolutely that it was
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a joke.
And for that I just want to say
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I'm very sorry and freely admit
I made a mistake.
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I think we all make them in in a
in a four and a half hour
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conversation, almost everybody's
going to say something that that
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they regret.
And if you do it as much as I
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do, it's a it's a foregone
conclusion, so.
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Sure, but I I that is such a
sensitive issue.
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OK, so this kind of leads into
the second.
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Point I wanted to address
because because this the the the
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concern that was expressed is
that that I have accused all
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fundamentalists who support the
ban of being violent people.
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Now I never said that nor did I
intend that to be conveyed.
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So I'd like to just clarify what
I meant.
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Right now, I do not believe that
everyone who sincerely believes
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in the ban is a violent person
or whatever commit an act of
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violence.
However, that said, I absolutely
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stand by my position that the
ban itself is inherently
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violent.
Now in the in the last episode,
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I didn't read Brigham's words
that he used in the 1852
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address, which is where he
announced the ban, because to be
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completely honest, I didn't want
to make Brigham look bad.
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I mean, I like I've said many
times, I love Brigham Young.
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I'm grateful for all the good he
did and and I acknowledge he was
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an amazing servant of God
throughout his life.
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But in hindsight, I think these
words do need to be addressed,
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especially for listeners who may
not have read or heard them
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before.
Or or maybe it's been a while
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and they and and the the memory
is not fresh.
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So if you're OK with it, I'm
going to read some of the words
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from Brigham's 1852 address now.
OK, quote.
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But let me tell you further.
Let my seed mingle with the seed
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of Cain that brings the curse
upon me and upon my generations.
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We will reap the same rewards
with Cain in the priesthood.
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I will tell you what it will do.
Were the children of God to
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mingle their seed with the seed
of Cain, it would not only bring
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the curse of being deprived of
the power of the priesthood upon
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themselves, but then entail it
upon their children after them.
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And they cannot get rid of it.
If a man in an unguarded moment,
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should commit such a
transgression, if he would walk
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up and say, cut off my head.
And kill man, woman and child.
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It would do a great deal towards
atoning for the sin.
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Would this be to curse them?
No, it would be a blessing to
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them.
It would do them good that they
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might be saved with their
brethren.
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A man would shudder should they
hear us talk about killing folk.
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But it is one of the greatest
blessings to some to kill them,
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although the true principles of
it, of it are not understood.
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UN quote SO.
I am not exaggerating or
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misrepresenting this in any way.
I am quoting Brigham Young's
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words verbatim.
If anyone thinks that these
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words are not violent, I would
ask you to please explain to me
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how they're not violent, because
I can't see any other way to
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understand them.
I mean, he's Brigham.
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He's plain.
It's forceful.
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It's just his characteristically
blunt way that he has.
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So here's the thing.
I do not believe all
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fundamentalist who believe in
the ban are violent.
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On the contrary.
I believe the vast majority of
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fundamentalists who believe in
the ban are nonviolent and
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peaceful.
But it is a fact that some
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Mormon fundamentalists have been
violent.
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There's historical examples.
Now, all the fundamentalists I
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know personally condemn the
murders committed by that have
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been committed by a small
minority of fundamentalists in
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the past.
And I'm not saying everyone is
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like those violent
fundamentalists.
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I I don't know a single
fundamentalist who is out of the
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hundreds and hundreds I've
personally met.
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That that is violent, but it is
it possible that somebody out
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there could there go there again
someday.
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I think nobody can deny that it
is a possibility.
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There are always not cases in
any society.
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But the most interesting thing
here to me, though, is the the
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lack of violence within the vast
majority of all fundamentalist
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groups.
Historically and today, there's
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absolutely no evidence that
Brigham himself ever personally
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acted on the penalty he
prescribed in that speech.
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And I personally don't think he
would have been capable of doing
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it even if he'd had an
opportunity.
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That's my belief.
I furthermore, I I think all, or
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at least the vast majority of
Mormon fundamentalists who
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believe in the band today would
never personally act on it
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either.
Fair, right.
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Fair.
Yeah.
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But but no go ahead.
But but let's think about that
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for a SEC, because this begs a
really important question.
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If you do believe in the ban,
why don't you believe in the
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penalty?
The penalty in the ban were
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delivered by the same man,
Brigham Young, in the same exact
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speech.
So if you're going to accept the
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ban as revelation from God, how
do you reject what he said
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immediately after?
Like the the penalty for
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interracial marriages that would
be logically inconsistent.
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There's there's a, there's a
phrase that's been kind of kind
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of thrown around.
It's become commonplace these
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days.
It's called cognitive
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dissonance.
And I think it applies here.
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I am advocating a very logically
consistent position which
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requires no cognitive dissonance
whatsoever by asking whether
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Brigham's priesthood man was
inspired of God or not.
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This doesn't mean Brigham was a
bad guy or not a prophet that
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are inherently evil or anything.
It just means I believe a good
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guy, a great man had a bad
opinion and and I believe it's
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our personal responsibility to
get the spirit of God within our
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own hearts and judge
righteously.
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Not condemn the man who taught
it, but only condemn the false
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and violent doctrine.
As far as I know, there's not a
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single fundamentalist group out
there today that hasn't rejected
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the latter half of the ban, the
penalty already.
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So.
So that is what I wanted to
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correct and and clarify on the
point of the priesthood ban with
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regards to violence.
So, to be to be clear, despite
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the violence inherent to the
doctrine.
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We as fundamentalists are not
inherently more dangerous than
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any other person in the world,
and neither was Brigham Young.
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I think that reality speaks
significantly to the band's
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legitimacy.
Perfect.
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Yeah.
No, I I I think so.
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And.
And you gotta look at when this
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was delivered.
If I'm not mistaken, this comes
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forward in the Mormon
Reformation period, right?
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And this is in a period where
Brigham sees people are slacking
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a little bit and Brigham was
trying to make a point and drive
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it home.
And I I like you don't think
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Brigham Young would have done it
and but but it's worth bearing
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out and I appreciate you coming
back on to to clear that up.
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OK, thanks.
So yeah, the the another concern
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that was raised is whether I
should have shared details about
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the prayer meeting that happened
in Missouri.
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And so, just to be clear, the
reason I addressed the issue
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publicly right now in the last
episode is because details about
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that meeting had already been
shared with people in other
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groups, including my own group
here in Utah, from an
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antagonistic source.
So it was already out, but it
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was being shared from an
adversarial perspective by
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somebody who opposed the
decision.
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If that had not happened, I
might not have written that
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section into the essays, or at
least when I did.
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And and I definitely would not
have talked about the Missouri
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meeting on the podcast but but
but because that's what did
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happen.
I felt it is important to give
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the full story so that everyone
who has seen the minutes or has
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heard rumors about it has access
to all the facts before drawing
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conclusions.
I've I've not received a single
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complaint from anyone who was
part of the meeting, only from
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people who were not part of the
meeting and who opposed the
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decision that was made there,
yeah.
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And then the last thing, and
this is actually from an
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anonymous contributor who
submitted something to me on the
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website, so I appreciate that I
had missed this in my research.
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So while it doesn't necessarily
change any of the conclusions
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I've come to, I do believe it's
worth mentioning because it
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shows I was wrong about one of
the historical points I made.
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Because you remember, I
attributed Mosiah Hancock's 1855
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dream about the, you know,
premortal existence and the
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neutral spirits being the black
race here on earth.
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I I thought that was the first
documented instance of this idea
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being taught chronologically.
Actually, Orson Hyde preached a
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sermon on this subject in 1845.
S 10 years before that, the year
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after the martyrdom in which he
said and I'll quote.
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At the time the devil was cast
out of heaven, there were some
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spirits that did not know who
had the authority, whether God
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or the Devil.
They consequently did not take a
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very active part on either side,
but rather thought the devil had
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been abused and considered he
had rather the best claim to the
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government.
These spirits were not
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considered bad enough to be cast
down to hell and never have
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bodies.
Neither were they considered
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worthy of an honorable body upon
this earth.
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But it came to pass that Ham,
the son of Noah, saw the
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nakedness of his father while he
lay drunk in his tent, and he
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with, quote, wicked joy, UN
quote, ran like Rigden, and made
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the wonderful disclosure to his
brethren, while Shem and Japheth
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took a garment with pity and
compassion, laid it upon their
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shoulders, went backwards, and
covered their father, and saw
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not his nakedness.
The joy of the first was to
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expose that of the second was to
cover the unseemliness of their
225
00:12:19,770 --> 00:12:21,880
father.
The conduct of the former
226
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,760
brought the curse of slavery
upon him, while that of the
227
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,160
latter secured blessings,
jurisdiction, power, and
228
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:28,880
dominion.
Here was the beginning of
229
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,120
blessing and cursing in the
family of Noah, and here also is
230
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,360
the cause of both.
Canaan, the son of Ham, received
231
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,000
the curse, for Noah wished to
place the curse as remote from
232
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,760
himself as possible.
He therefore placed it upon his
233
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,230
grandson instead of his son.
Now it would seem cruel to force
234
00:12:47,230 --> 00:12:49,550
pure celestial spirits into the
world through the lineage of
235
00:12:49,550 --> 00:12:52,670
Canaan that had been cursed.
This would be ill appropriate
236
00:12:52,670 --> 00:12:54,430
putting the precious and vile
together.
237
00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:58,470
But those spirits in heaven that
rather lent an influence to the
238
00:12:58,470 --> 00:13:01,950
devil thinking, had a little the
best right to govern, but did
239
00:13:01,950 --> 00:13:05,270
not take a very active part.
Anyway, we're required to come
240
00:13:05,270 --> 00:13:07,870
into the world and take bodies
in the accursed lineage of
241
00:13:07,870 --> 00:13:11,030
Canaan and hence the N word or
African race.
242
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:14,870
Now, therefore, all those who
are halting concerning, who has
243
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:17,910
the right to govern, had better
look at the fate of their
244
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:21,230
brethren that have gone before
them, and take warning and time,
245
00:13:21,230 --> 00:13:23,950
lest they learn obedience by the
things which they suffer.
246
00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:26,150
Choose ye this day whom you will
serve.
247
00:13:26,350 --> 00:13:28,590
These things are among the
mysteries of the Kingdom, and I
248
00:13:28,590 --> 00:13:31,150
have told them not by constraint
or by commandment, but by
249
00:13:31,150 --> 00:13:32,670
permission.
UN quote.
250
00:13:33,710 --> 00:13:36,470
Now this we have to consider the
context.
251
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:39,270
So this was a speech given by
Elder Orson Hyde to the High
252
00:13:39,270 --> 00:13:43,970
Priest Quorum.
In Nauvoo on April 27th, 1845 S
253
00:13:44,730 --> 00:13:50,090
just under a year after the
martyrdom, but before the big
254
00:13:50,090 --> 00:13:53,210
meeting where Sydney rigged in
and and Brigham Young addressed
255
00:13:53,210 --> 00:13:56,370
the body of the Saints, so
before the succession crisis had
256
00:13:56,370 --> 00:14:00,450
been kind of resolved.
So the the title of this speech
257
00:14:00,450 --> 00:14:03,130
is upon the course and conduct
of Mr. Sydney rigged in and the
258
00:14:03,130 --> 00:14:06,050
merits of his claims to the
presidency of the Church.
259
00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:11,450
So you know, so of course.
Just a few weeks after this,
260
00:14:11,450 --> 00:14:14,090
Brigham Young was sustained as
the rightful successor.
261
00:14:14,250 --> 00:14:17,850
Well, the 12th with Brigham
Young as as the president were
262
00:14:17,850 --> 00:14:21,970
sustained to lead the church.
You know, it was not a unanimous
263
00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:23,810
decision.
You know, not everybody
264
00:14:23,850 --> 00:14:27,850
sustained Brigham Young, but
everyone who went W to Utah did
265
00:14:28,050 --> 00:14:30,130
sustain Brigham Young and not
Sidney Rigdon.
266
00:14:31,210 --> 00:14:37,970
And so he's using this, this
biblical story as rhetoric to
267
00:14:37,970 --> 00:14:43,100
essentially.
Persuade kind of a little bit
268
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:46,620
through fear the people who were
considering following Sidney
269
00:14:46,620 --> 00:14:49,180
Rigden to know you shouldn't
follow him.
270
00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:52,580
He's like Canaan or he's like
Ham and and you know Brigham
271
00:14:52,580 --> 00:14:56,420
Young and the 12 they're like
Shem and Japheth and and so that
272
00:14:56,420 --> 00:15:01,100
that is what it is.
It was said at that time and so
273
00:15:01,380 --> 00:15:04,820
three important details that
that stand out to me from this
274
00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:09,710
account is First off Orson Hyde.
Does not attribute these ideas
275
00:15:09,710 --> 00:15:12,790
to Joseph Smith.
That's number one that has to be
276
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:15,790
stated.
And I read it's a long
277
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:18,510
discourse.
It's about 35 pages and I'm
278
00:15:18,510 --> 00:15:21,430
gonna put the link on the
website so you can read it in
279
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:25,190
full yourself.
But I read it Joseph Orson Hyde
280
00:15:25,190 --> 00:15:28,230
does not attribute these
teachings and coming ideas
281
00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:32,190
coming from Joseph Smith.
Secondly, this directly
282
00:15:32,190 --> 00:15:36,190
contradicts several things
Joseph Smith told Orson Hyde to
283
00:15:36,190 --> 00:15:38,230
his face.
You know, remember that
284
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:40,910
conversation between Joseph
Smith and Orson Hyde when he
285
00:15:40,910 --> 00:15:44,710
says change their the the black
situation with the whites and
286
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:47,350
they would be like them.
They have souls and are subjects
287
00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:50,710
of salvation.
And then later on Joseph says in
288
00:15:50,710 --> 00:15:54,110
another conversation that the OR
in the same conversation put
289
00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:57,710
them on an he would put them on
a national equalization,
290
00:15:57,910 --> 00:15:58,630
etcetera.
So.
291
00:15:59,430 --> 00:16:05,110
So this flies in the face of
things that Joseph Smith did.
292
00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:10,380
To talk and say to Orson hide.
And then the third thing and
293
00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:13,460
perhaps the most important
Brigham Young himself refuted
294
00:16:13,740 --> 00:16:17,340
that he and like that, that this
idea was a thing.
295
00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:21,380
And in 1869 he emphatically
stated that he had heard Joseph
296
00:16:21,380 --> 00:16:23,220
teach the opposite.
So.
297
00:16:23,220 --> 00:16:26,180
So these are the reasons why the
above quote does not change my
298
00:16:26,180 --> 00:16:29,460
conclusions about what I said
before, but in the interest of
299
00:16:29,460 --> 00:16:33,400
honesty and, you know, just.
Representing the history as as
300
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,640
as accurately as possible, I
will be adding this quote to the
301
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,360
website as an addendum to the SA
at Blacks and the priesthood.com
302
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,680
and and I'll I'll include a link
to the full speech and you know,
303
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,760
the person who contributed this
did not leave their name or
304
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,480
e-mail, so if whoever submitted
it happens to be listening right
305
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,520
now.
Thank you very much.
306
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,160
I appreciate it.
One other thing I wanted to
307
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,390
point out is that it doesn't say
anything about restriction of
308
00:17:00,390 --> 00:17:03,110
priesthood, just slavery as a
penalty, correct?
309
00:17:04,349 --> 00:17:06,829
I mean, it doesn't actually go
anywhere.
310
00:17:06,829 --> 00:17:08,349
It just talks about it.
They are cursed.
311
00:17:08,349 --> 00:17:11,230
It's a cursive lineage and and
he's implying that anybody who
312
00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:15,710
follows Sidney Rigdon is
basically guilty of the same
313
00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:17,750
thing.
And, you know, so it it doesn't
314
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:20,790
actually speak to priesthood
eligibility or anything else
315
00:17:20,790 --> 00:17:25,190
related, but it it is the first
chronological documented
316
00:17:25,190 --> 00:17:27,750
instance of.
The teaching that there were
317
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:30,390
neutral spirits in heaven.
So that's why I do believe it is
318
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:32,830
germane to this discussion and
investigation.
319
00:17:33,390 --> 00:17:35,110
Well dude, I appreciate your
honesty.
320
00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:37,750
So that's good stuff.
So thank you.
321
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:40,870
I've had to issue one of these
ones before myself and I
322
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:44,030
understand.
So it's it's all good.
323
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:46,030
I appreciate it.
All right.
324
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:47,510
See ya.
Thanks.
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,720
Taylor, how's it going, man?
Oh, hanging in there.
2
00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,560
Thanks a lot for having me back
on for this quick addendum,
3
00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:10,920
Dave.
No problem.
4
00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,760
No problem.
Sounded like it's something that
5
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,920
needed to happen.
So definitely, let's get her.
6
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:17,880
Let's get her rolling.
Yeah.
7
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,480
And and just before we dive in,
I'd like to apologize to
8
00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,600
everyone for having to bring
this subject up again so soon.
9
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,040
I I'm.
It wasn't my intent.
10
00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:28,780
But I've just had some people
point out some things I got
11
00:00:28,780 --> 00:00:33,700
wrong, and I want to own that.
So I I asked Dave if I could
12
00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:36,060
take just 1015 minutes, because
I want to be as honest and fully
13
00:00:36,060 --> 00:00:38,540
transparent about everything as
I possibly can.
14
00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:43,100
So there was one comment in
particular that in hindsight, I
15
00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:45,580
wish I hadn't made in that in
the previous episode.
16
00:00:45,980 --> 00:00:48,180
And so I'd like to set the
record straight about it, and
17
00:00:48,180 --> 00:00:50,020
then afterward address a couple
other points.
18
00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,600
So this clip is 28 seconds long.
It starts at the three hour, 41
19
00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,840
minute and 35 second time stamp
on the last episode.
20
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,120
I'm just gonna play it real
quick so it's fresh in all of
21
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,040
our minds as they they're part
of the community, a
22
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,000
fundamentalist community.
And it was very divisive a lot.
23
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,080
Even his Blood Brothers, a lot
of his Blood Brothers were very
24
00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,080
critical, especially at first of
that decision that he made.
25
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,200
And you know, they were.
One brother offered to cut off
26
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:28,280
his head like it was literally
that degree of of extremism in
27
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:33,000
the in this conversation I I'm
not so I just wanted to make
28
00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,360
sure that everybody is clear
that's what I'm going to be
29
00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,800
speaking to 1st off and so just
for the record.
30
00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,360
First off, I did not lie that
comment was made in writing, and
31
00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,280
multiple witnesses have
corroborated that it did happen.
32
00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,200
And when I first read it, it was
just on a discussion group that
33
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,320
I was invited to, and I really
could hardly believe my eyes.
34
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,400
I figured it had to be a joke.
I mean who offers to to cut off
35
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,680
their brother's this, this was
on like a messaging.
36
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,040
App, right.
Correct.
37
00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,360
Yes and and.
But so the fact that it was said
38
00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,580
even in jest made me wonder.
If there was any possibility
39
00:02:09,580 --> 00:02:11,740
there that there was something
darker involved, because I like
40
00:02:11,740 --> 00:02:14,500
I say I don't know the person
who said it personally.
41
00:02:14,780 --> 00:02:17,420
So you didn't know it was
ingested at the time, correct?
42
00:02:17,420 --> 00:02:21,780
I mean, how do you take it for
serious?
43
00:02:22,540 --> 00:02:26,260
I mean, I did not know for sure
it was a joke, but so yeah, so I
44
00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:30,300
have had multiple assurances
from mutual friends in the last
45
00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:34,420
two days that it absolutely was
just a joke and and so like,
46
00:02:34,420 --> 00:02:36,900
just in hindsight, I wish I
hadn't mentioned it.
47
00:02:37,350 --> 00:02:40,270
Or that I would have known to
call out absolutely that it was
48
00:02:40,270 --> 00:02:43,070
a joke.
And for that I just want to say
49
00:02:43,070 --> 00:02:45,630
I'm very sorry and freely admit
I made a mistake.
50
00:02:46,830 --> 00:02:51,350
I think we all make them in in a
in a four and a half hour
51
00:02:51,350 --> 00:02:54,630
conversation, almost everybody's
going to say something that that
52
00:02:54,990 --> 00:02:57,750
they regret.
And if you do it as much as I
53
00:02:57,750 --> 00:03:00,830
do, it's a it's a foregone
conclusion, so.
54
00:03:00,950 --> 00:03:03,830
Sure, but I I that is such a
sensitive issue.
55
00:03:03,830 --> 00:03:05,630
OK, so this kind of leads into
the second.
56
00:03:06,150 --> 00:03:09,550
Point I wanted to address
because because this the the the
57
00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:14,310
concern that was expressed is
that that I have accused all
58
00:03:14,310 --> 00:03:18,270
fundamentalists who support the
ban of being violent people.
59
00:03:18,630 --> 00:03:21,830
Now I never said that nor did I
intend that to be conveyed.
60
00:03:22,350 --> 00:03:24,590
So I'd like to just clarify what
I meant.
61
00:03:24,590 --> 00:03:28,830
Right now, I do not believe that
everyone who sincerely believes
62
00:03:28,830 --> 00:03:31,630
in the ban is a violent person
or whatever commit an act of
63
00:03:31,630 --> 00:03:35,460
violence.
However, that said, I absolutely
64
00:03:35,460 --> 00:03:39,500
stand by my position that the
ban itself is inherently
65
00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:41,940
violent.
Now in the in the last episode,
66
00:03:41,940 --> 00:03:45,060
I didn't read Brigham's words
that he used in the 1852
67
00:03:45,060 --> 00:03:49,180
address, which is where he
announced the ban, because to be
68
00:03:49,180 --> 00:03:52,500
completely honest, I didn't want
to make Brigham look bad.
69
00:03:52,500 --> 00:03:55,220
I mean, I like I've said many
times, I love Brigham Young.
70
00:03:55,460 --> 00:03:58,900
I'm grateful for all the good he
did and and I acknowledge he was
71
00:03:58,900 --> 00:04:01,260
an amazing servant of God
throughout his life.
72
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,000
But in hindsight, I think these
words do need to be addressed,
73
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,600
especially for listeners who may
not have read or heard them
74
00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,400
before.
Or or maybe it's been a while
75
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,240
and they and and the the memory
is not fresh.
76
00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,640
So if you're OK with it, I'm
going to read some of the words
77
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,560
from Brigham's 1852 address now.
OK, quote.
78
00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,920
But let me tell you further.
Let my seed mingle with the seed
79
00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,040
of Cain that brings the curse
upon me and upon my generations.
80
00:04:29,610 --> 00:04:33,610
We will reap the same rewards
with Cain in the priesthood.
81
00:04:33,610 --> 00:04:37,210
I will tell you what it will do.
Were the children of God to
82
00:04:37,210 --> 00:04:41,290
mingle their seed with the seed
of Cain, it would not only bring
83
00:04:41,290 --> 00:04:43,930
the curse of being deprived of
the power of the priesthood upon
84
00:04:43,930 --> 00:04:47,610
themselves, but then entail it
upon their children after them.
85
00:04:47,810 --> 00:04:52,130
And they cannot get rid of it.
If a man in an unguarded moment,
86
00:04:52,170 --> 00:04:55,570
should commit such a
transgression, if he would walk
87
00:04:55,570 --> 00:05:00,120
up and say, cut off my head.
And kill man, woman and child.
88
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,360
It would do a great deal towards
atoning for the sin.
89
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,600
Would this be to curse them?
No, it would be a blessing to
90
00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,560
them.
It would do them good that they
91
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,280
might be saved with their
brethren.
92
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,920
A man would shudder should they
hear us talk about killing folk.
93
00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:17,320
But it is one of the greatest
blessings to some to kill them,
94
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,840
although the true principles of
it, of it are not understood.
95
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,520
UN quote SO.
I am not exaggerating or
96
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,720
misrepresenting this in any way.
I am quoting Brigham Young's
97
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,120
words verbatim.
If anyone thinks that these
98
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,720
words are not violent, I would
ask you to please explain to me
99
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,560
how they're not violent, because
I can't see any other way to
100
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,560
understand them.
I mean, he's Brigham.
101
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:42,920
He's plain.
It's forceful.
102
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,920
It's just his characteristically
blunt way that he has.
103
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,200
So here's the thing.
I do not believe all
104
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,440
fundamentalist who believe in
the ban are violent.
105
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,730
On the contrary.
I believe the vast majority of
106
00:05:55,730 --> 00:05:58,730
fundamentalists who believe in
the ban are nonviolent and
107
00:05:58,730 --> 00:06:01,490
peaceful.
But it is a fact that some
108
00:06:01,490 --> 00:06:03,810
Mormon fundamentalists have been
violent.
109
00:06:04,290 --> 00:06:07,730
There's historical examples.
Now, all the fundamentalists I
110
00:06:07,730 --> 00:06:11,130
know personally condemn the
murders committed by that have
111
00:06:11,130 --> 00:06:13,330
been committed by a small
minority of fundamentalists in
112
00:06:13,330 --> 00:06:14,970
the past.
And I'm not saying everyone is
113
00:06:14,970 --> 00:06:16,810
like those violent
fundamentalists.
114
00:06:17,050 --> 00:06:20,690
I I don't know a single
fundamentalist who is out of the
115
00:06:20,690 --> 00:06:22,330
hundreds and hundreds I've
personally met.
116
00:06:22,990 --> 00:06:26,270
That that is violent, but it is
it possible that somebody out
117
00:06:26,270 --> 00:06:28,550
there could there go there again
someday.
118
00:06:29,350 --> 00:06:32,070
I think nobody can deny that it
is a possibility.
119
00:06:32,190 --> 00:06:34,150
There are always not cases in
any society.
120
00:06:35,390 --> 00:06:38,870
But the most interesting thing
here to me, though, is the the
121
00:06:38,870 --> 00:06:42,510
lack of violence within the vast
majority of all fundamentalist
122
00:06:42,510 --> 00:06:44,830
groups.
Historically and today, there's
123
00:06:44,830 --> 00:06:48,430
absolutely no evidence that
Brigham himself ever personally
124
00:06:48,430 --> 00:06:50,910
acted on the penalty he
prescribed in that speech.
125
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And I personally don't think he
would have been capable of doing
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00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:55,880
it even if he'd had an
opportunity.
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00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,000
That's my belief.
I furthermore, I I think all, or
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00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,440
at least the vast majority of
Mormon fundamentalists who
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believe in the band today would
never personally act on it
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00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,480
either.
Fair, right.
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Fair.
Yeah.
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But but no go ahead.
But but let's think about that
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for a SEC, because this begs a
really important question.
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00:07:21,140 --> 00:07:25,300
If you do believe in the ban,
why don't you believe in the
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00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:27,900
penalty?
The penalty in the ban were
136
00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:31,740
delivered by the same man,
Brigham Young, in the same exact
137
00:07:31,740 --> 00:07:34,060
speech.
So if you're going to accept the
138
00:07:34,060 --> 00:07:38,380
ban as revelation from God, how
do you reject what he said
139
00:07:38,380 --> 00:07:40,540
immediately after?
Like the the penalty for
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00:07:40,540 --> 00:07:43,380
interracial marriages that would
be logically inconsistent.
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00:07:43,660 --> 00:07:46,260
There's there's a, there's a
phrase that's been kind of kind
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00:07:46,260 --> 00:07:47,980
of thrown around.
It's become commonplace these
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days.
It's called cognitive
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00:07:49,420 --> 00:07:52,210
dissonance.
And I think it applies here.
145
00:07:52,450 --> 00:07:56,890
I am advocating a very logically
consistent position which
146
00:07:56,890 --> 00:08:01,490
requires no cognitive dissonance
whatsoever by asking whether
147
00:08:01,530 --> 00:08:03,890
Brigham's priesthood man was
inspired of God or not.
148
00:08:04,250 --> 00:08:07,330
This doesn't mean Brigham was a
bad guy or not a prophet that
149
00:08:07,330 --> 00:08:11,330
are inherently evil or anything.
It just means I believe a good
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00:08:11,330 --> 00:08:14,970
guy, a great man had a bad
opinion and and I believe it's
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00:08:14,970 --> 00:08:17,890
our personal responsibility to
get the spirit of God within our
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own hearts and judge
righteously.
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Not condemn the man who taught
it, but only condemn the false
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and violent doctrine.
As far as I know, there's not a
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00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,080
single fundamentalist group out
there today that hasn't rejected
156
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,320
the latter half of the ban, the
penalty already.
157
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:34,919
So.
So that is what I wanted to
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00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:37,720
correct and and clarify on the
point of the priesthood ban with
159
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regards to violence.
So, to be to be clear, despite
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the violence inherent to the
doctrine.
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00:08:44,310 --> 00:08:48,310
We as fundamentalists are not
inherently more dangerous than
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00:08:48,310 --> 00:08:51,470
any other person in the world,
and neither was Brigham Young.
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I think that reality speaks
significantly to the band's
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legitimacy.
Perfect.
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00:09:00,270 --> 00:09:03,990
Yeah.
No, I I I think so.
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00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:05,350
And.
And you gotta look at when this
167
00:09:05,350 --> 00:09:07,710
was delivered.
If I'm not mistaken, this comes
168
00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:11,270
forward in the Mormon
Reformation period, right?
169
00:09:11,310 --> 00:09:14,760
And this is in a period where
Brigham sees people are slacking
170
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a little bit and Brigham was
trying to make a point and drive
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00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,920
it home.
And I I like you don't think
172
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:27,160
Brigham Young would have done it
and but but it's worth bearing
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00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,040
out and I appreciate you coming
back on to to clear that up.
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00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,880
OK, thanks.
So yeah, the the another concern
175
00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,160
that was raised is whether I
should have shared details about
176
00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:39,920
the prayer meeting that happened
in Missouri.
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And so, just to be clear, the
reason I addressed the issue
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publicly right now in the last
episode is because details about
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00:09:48,020 --> 00:09:50,660
that meeting had already been
shared with people in other
180
00:09:50,660 --> 00:09:53,540
groups, including my own group
here in Utah, from an
181
00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:56,580
antagonistic source.
So it was already out, but it
182
00:09:56,580 --> 00:09:59,100
was being shared from an
adversarial perspective by
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00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:00,620
somebody who opposed the
decision.
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00:10:01,180 --> 00:10:04,540
If that had not happened, I
might not have written that
185
00:10:04,540 --> 00:10:06,940
section into the essays, or at
least when I did.
186
00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:09,390
And and I definitely would not
have talked about the Missouri
187
00:10:09,390 --> 00:10:12,550
meeting on the podcast but but
but because that's what did
188
00:10:12,550 --> 00:10:15,350
happen.
I felt it is important to give
189
00:10:15,350 --> 00:10:18,310
the full story so that everyone
who has seen the minutes or has
190
00:10:18,310 --> 00:10:21,830
heard rumors about it has access
to all the facts before drawing
191
00:10:21,830 --> 00:10:25,110
conclusions.
I've I've not received a single
192
00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:28,430
complaint from anyone who was
part of the meeting, only from
193
00:10:28,430 --> 00:10:30,630
people who were not part of the
meeting and who opposed the
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00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:34,310
decision that was made there,
yeah.
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00:10:35,580 --> 00:10:39,180
And then the last thing, and
this is actually from an
196
00:10:39,180 --> 00:10:42,140
anonymous contributor who
submitted something to me on the
197
00:10:42,140 --> 00:10:46,100
website, so I appreciate that I
had missed this in my research.
198
00:10:46,100 --> 00:10:49,820
So while it doesn't necessarily
change any of the conclusions
199
00:10:49,820 --> 00:10:53,020
I've come to, I do believe it's
worth mentioning because it
200
00:10:53,020 --> 00:10:55,980
shows I was wrong about one of
the historical points I made.
201
00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,640
Because you remember, I
attributed Mosiah Hancock's 1855
202
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,400
dream about the, you know,
premortal existence and the
203
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,960
neutral spirits being the black
race here on earth.
204
00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:10,280
I I thought that was the first
documented instance of this idea
205
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:16,040
being taught chronologically.
Actually, Orson Hyde preached a
206
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:21,760
sermon on this subject in 1845.
S 10 years before that, the year
207
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,600
after the martyrdom in which he
said and I'll quote.
208
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,360
At the time the devil was cast
out of heaven, there were some
209
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,520
spirits that did not know who
had the authority, whether God
210
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or the Devil.
They consequently did not take a
211
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,600
very active part on either side,
but rather thought the devil had
212
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,480
been abused and considered he
had rather the best claim to the
213
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,560
government.
These spirits were not
214
00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,960
considered bad enough to be cast
down to hell and never have
215
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:49,880
bodies.
Neither were they considered
216
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,240
worthy of an honorable body upon
this earth.
217
00:11:52,650 --> 00:11:55,090
But it came to pass that Ham,
the son of Noah, saw the
218
00:11:55,090 --> 00:11:57,970
nakedness of his father while he
lay drunk in his tent, and he
219
00:11:57,970 --> 00:12:03,170
with, quote, wicked joy, UN
quote, ran like Rigden, and made
220
00:12:03,170 --> 00:12:06,570
the wonderful disclosure to his
brethren, while Shem and Japheth
221
00:12:06,730 --> 00:12:09,970
took a garment with pity and
compassion, laid it upon their
222
00:12:09,970 --> 00:12:12,690
shoulders, went backwards, and
covered their father, and saw
223
00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:15,770
not his nakedness.
The joy of the first was to
224
00:12:15,770 --> 00:12:19,770
expose that of the second was to
cover the unseemliness of their
225
00:12:19,770 --> 00:12:21,880
father.
The conduct of the former
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00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,760
brought the curse of slavery
upon him, while that of the
227
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,160
latter secured blessings,
jurisdiction, power, and
228
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:28,880
dominion.
Here was the beginning of
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blessing and cursing in the
family of Noah, and here also is
230
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,360
the cause of both.
Canaan, the son of Ham, received
231
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,000
the curse, for Noah wished to
place the curse as remote from
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00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,760
himself as possible.
He therefore placed it upon his
233
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,230
grandson instead of his son.
Now it would seem cruel to force
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00:12:47,230 --> 00:12:49,550
pure celestial spirits into the
world through the lineage of
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00:12:49,550 --> 00:12:52,670
Canaan that had been cursed.
This would be ill appropriate
236
00:12:52,670 --> 00:12:54,430
putting the precious and vile
together.
237
00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:58,470
But those spirits in heaven that
rather lent an influence to the
238
00:12:58,470 --> 00:13:01,950
devil thinking, had a little the
best right to govern, but did
239
00:13:01,950 --> 00:13:05,270
not take a very active part.
Anyway, we're required to come
240
00:13:05,270 --> 00:13:07,870
into the world and take bodies
in the accursed lineage of
241
00:13:07,870 --> 00:13:11,030
Canaan and hence the N word or
African race.
242
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:14,870
Now, therefore, all those who
are halting concerning, who has
243
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:17,910
the right to govern, had better
look at the fate of their
244
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:21,230
brethren that have gone before
them, and take warning and time,
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00:13:21,230 --> 00:13:23,950
lest they learn obedience by the
things which they suffer.
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Choose ye this day whom you will
serve.
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00:13:26,350 --> 00:13:28,590
These things are among the
mysteries of the Kingdom, and I
248
00:13:28,590 --> 00:13:31,150
have told them not by constraint
or by commandment, but by
249
00:13:31,150 --> 00:13:32,670
permission.
UN quote.
250
00:13:33,710 --> 00:13:36,470
Now this we have to consider the
context.
251
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:39,270
So this was a speech given by
Elder Orson Hyde to the High
252
00:13:39,270 --> 00:13:43,970
Priest Quorum.
In Nauvoo on April 27th, 1845 S
253
00:13:44,730 --> 00:13:50,090
just under a year after the
martyrdom, but before the big
254
00:13:50,090 --> 00:13:53,210
meeting where Sydney rigged in
and and Brigham Young addressed
255
00:13:53,210 --> 00:13:56,370
the body of the Saints, so
before the succession crisis had
256
00:13:56,370 --> 00:14:00,450
been kind of resolved.
So the the title of this speech
257
00:14:00,450 --> 00:14:03,130
is upon the course and conduct
of Mr. Sydney rigged in and the
258
00:14:03,130 --> 00:14:06,050
merits of his claims to the
presidency of the Church.
259
00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:11,450
So you know, so of course.
Just a few weeks after this,
260
00:14:11,450 --> 00:14:14,090
Brigham Young was sustained as
the rightful successor.
261
00:14:14,250 --> 00:14:17,850
Well, the 12th with Brigham
Young as as the president were
262
00:14:17,850 --> 00:14:21,970
sustained to lead the church.
You know, it was not a unanimous
263
00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:23,810
decision.
You know, not everybody
264
00:14:23,850 --> 00:14:27,850
sustained Brigham Young, but
everyone who went W to Utah did
265
00:14:28,050 --> 00:14:30,130
sustain Brigham Young and not
Sidney Rigdon.
266
00:14:31,210 --> 00:14:37,970
And so he's using this, this
biblical story as rhetoric to
267
00:14:37,970 --> 00:14:43,100
essentially.
Persuade kind of a little bit
268
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:46,620
through fear the people who were
considering following Sidney
269
00:14:46,620 --> 00:14:49,180
Rigden to know you shouldn't
follow him.
270
00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:52,580
He's like Canaan or he's like
Ham and and you know Brigham
271
00:14:52,580 --> 00:14:56,420
Young and the 12 they're like
Shem and Japheth and and so that
272
00:14:56,420 --> 00:15:01,100
that is what it is.
It was said at that time and so
273
00:15:01,380 --> 00:15:04,820
three important details that
that stand out to me from this
274
00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:09,710
account is First off Orson Hyde.
Does not attribute these ideas
275
00:15:09,710 --> 00:15:12,790
to Joseph Smith.
That's number one that has to be
276
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:15,790
stated.
And I read it's a long
277
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:18,510
discourse.
It's about 35 pages and I'm
278
00:15:18,510 --> 00:15:21,430
gonna put the link on the
website so you can read it in
279
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:25,190
full yourself.
But I read it Joseph Orson Hyde
280
00:15:25,190 --> 00:15:28,230
does not attribute these
teachings and coming ideas
281
00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:32,190
coming from Joseph Smith.
Secondly, this directly
282
00:15:32,190 --> 00:15:36,190
contradicts several things
Joseph Smith told Orson Hyde to
283
00:15:36,190 --> 00:15:38,230
his face.
You know, remember that
284
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:40,910
conversation between Joseph
Smith and Orson Hyde when he
285
00:15:40,910 --> 00:15:44,710
says change their the the black
situation with the whites and
286
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:47,350
they would be like them.
They have souls and are subjects
287
00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:50,710
of salvation.
And then later on Joseph says in
288
00:15:50,710 --> 00:15:54,110
another conversation that the OR
in the same conversation put
289
00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:57,710
them on an he would put them on
a national equalization,
290
00:15:57,910 --> 00:15:58,630
etcetera.
So.
291
00:15:59,430 --> 00:16:05,110
So this flies in the face of
things that Joseph Smith did.
292
00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:10,380
To talk and say to Orson hide.
And then the third thing and
293
00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:13,460
perhaps the most important
Brigham Young himself refuted
294
00:16:13,740 --> 00:16:17,340
that he and like that, that this
idea was a thing.
295
00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:21,380
And in 1869 he emphatically
stated that he had heard Joseph
296
00:16:21,380 --> 00:16:23,220
teach the opposite.
So.
297
00:16:23,220 --> 00:16:26,180
So these are the reasons why the
above quote does not change my
298
00:16:26,180 --> 00:16:29,460
conclusions about what I said
before, but in the interest of
299
00:16:29,460 --> 00:16:33,400
honesty and, you know, just.
Representing the history as as
300
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,640
as accurately as possible, I
will be adding this quote to the
301
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,360
website as an addendum to the SA
at Blacks and the priesthood.com
302
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,680
and and I'll I'll include a link
to the full speech and you know,
303
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,760
the person who contributed this
did not leave their name or
304
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,480
e-mail, so if whoever submitted
it happens to be listening right
305
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,520
now.
Thank you very much.
306
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,160
I appreciate it.
One other thing I wanted to
307
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,390
point out is that it doesn't say
anything about restriction of
308
00:17:00,390 --> 00:17:03,110
priesthood, just slavery as a
penalty, correct?
309
00:17:04,349 --> 00:17:06,829
I mean, it doesn't actually go
anywhere.
310
00:17:06,829 --> 00:17:08,349
It just talks about it.
They are cursed.
311
00:17:08,349 --> 00:17:11,230
It's a cursive lineage and and
he's implying that anybody who
312
00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:15,710
follows Sidney Rigdon is
basically guilty of the same
313
00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:17,750
thing.
And, you know, so it it doesn't
314
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:20,790
actually speak to priesthood
eligibility or anything else
315
00:17:20,790 --> 00:17:25,190
related, but it it is the first
chronological documented
316
00:17:25,190 --> 00:17:27,750
instance of.
The teaching that there were
317
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:30,390
neutral spirits in heaven.
So that's why I do believe it is
318
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:32,830
germane to this discussion and
investigation.
319
00:17:33,390 --> 00:17:35,110
Well dude, I appreciate your
honesty.
320
00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:37,750
So that's good stuff.
So thank you.
321
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:40,870
I've had to issue one of these
ones before myself and I
322
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:44,030
understand.
So it's it's all good.
323
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:46,030
I appreciate it.
All right.
324
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:47,510
See ya.
Thanks.
