Episode #90: Exploring The Branches Of Mormon Fundamentalism Series: The Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) W/Josh Thompson

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Today we resume our Exploring
the Branches of Mormon

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Fundamentalism series.
On this episode, I have Josh

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Thompson on the podcast as we
have a conversation about the

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Apostolic United Brethren, also
called the A UB.

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Now Josh is the grandson of Ruin
C Allred and has been a member

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of the A UB his entire life.
In our conversation we talked

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about the history of the group
by discussing Presidents of the

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A UB starting with ruins he
Allred down to the present and

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exploring notable events that
happened during their respective

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administrations.
We then move on to talk about

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the culture of the A UB where we
discuss their various

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communities activities along
with practices around courtship

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and marriage.
We then finish up by having a

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conversation about doctrines
that are held by the A UB, all

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the while taking time to discuss
gospel principles.

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Stick around for a fascinating
conversation on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse to become and

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raise men and women of virtue
and characters, a Herculean

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task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com, go to the
bottom of the page, search out

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the blog post, and order your
copy.

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Today, I can bear personal
testimony from personal

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experience that this is an
invaluable tool to help you

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raise men and women of virtue
and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Josh, how's it going, man?
It's.

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Going real good.
Appreciate the opportunity to do

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that.
We're super early.

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I'm a little tired but.
But I'm excited.

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I am too.
I am too.

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I hear you.
But.

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But we'll get through this as as
as we talk here.

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Things will lighten up.
I promise.

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So have you.
So real quick.

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Have you always been a
fundamentalist?

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Were you born and raised a
fundamentalist?

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Yeah, so I was.
I was raised with the three moms

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I've always had, actually.
Well, that's not true, Okay.

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So I was born with one my
original dad, second wife.

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At that point.
I was in that family till I was

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about five.
They had a divorce for a number

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of reasons, which you may or may
not go down the whole, I don't

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know, but divorced.
And then my mom remarried my

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stepdad now, who had two wives
and she was the third wife at

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that point.
And so I was brought family and

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I feel like I had a awesome
childhood.

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But yeah, fundamentalism is the
only religion I personally have

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ever known.
I think we all kind of go

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through our own little faith
crisis type thing where we

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decide is this what we're going
to do and what we're not.

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So I guess in my heart,
technically there would have

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been a little phase where I was
most kind of unsure trying to

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figure things out.
Sure, but but yeah, I've

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definitely been in it my whole
life.

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Right on.
Yeah, three moms.

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What was that?
Three moms?

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You didn't get away with
anything as a kid, did you?

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You can say that we did live
separate.

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My specific family was a little
more blessed than a lot of

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polygamous families.
So because every wife.

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Was able to have their own
house, but we also lived house

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to house to house on one piece
of property.

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So it's like they had their own
space, their own room, But we

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were all really close to each
other and the kids kind of, you

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know, we were able to just go to
the other houses, sleep over

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because obviously we have a
polygamous family.

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You have siblings that are your
own age that you hang out with,

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right?
Yeah, it was really good.

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Did you attend public school or
or?

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Yeah, so my family was a little,
was quite a bit different and I

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know I've kind of talked to you
about this and said I'm not sure

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that I would have been the best
person for the interview because

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I'm I'm a little bit on the
outside, even to this day.

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My family was one of the few to
actually do public school clear

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from the beginning like
preschool clear up because we

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actually do have a school system
in our religion.

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We just didn't do it and it
actually I'm not 100% sure why

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that is.
I've never really thought about

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that or asked my parents.
It's just how my family always

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was always went to the public
school system and but yeah, so

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we were always really involved
out in the world type aspects,

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but also we were involved in our
religion as well.

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We weren't inactive by any
means?

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Sure, Sure.
So what was at what point do you

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remember going to school and
then having that general

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realization like, oh geez, maybe
my family's a little bit

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different than everybody else's.
It was there, ever that moment.

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You know, that definitely had to
have happened, but I honestly

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can't recall it.
And that that probably could be

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because the public school system
that I went to actually had

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really good relations with my
faith.

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Because we had a community just
it was just a few miles away

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from that and there were, we
actually had teachers that were

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from our community that taught
at the public school system.

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So I think just because
everybody knew each other, we

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had good relationships with the
public school system.

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It was never anything that I
felt like I had to be secret of

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or hide about.
Just everybody always knew it.

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So yeah so I don't ever had them
and you know that's that's one

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thing about about the a UB and
and for anyone listening that's

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what we're going to cover today
is is the a UB.

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That's one of the things about
the a UB that I think I kind of

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I kind of always looked at and
and thought was kind of cool was

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was while they definitely had
their their faith community they

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weren't necessarily insular
right.

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They would they'd get out there
and and you could tell and and I

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thought that that did wonders,
right, because that allows

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people to to kind of see that OK
their family arrangements a

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little bit different but at the
end of the day they're still

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people.
Right.

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Yeah.
Yeah, that's I I've always felt

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like that's a big thing that
really sets us.

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We're a community and a faith
that if you were to see us on

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the streets, there's nothing
really recognizable about us.

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You just wouldn't, you wouldn't
know who we were.

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And we're definitely, we're
always very involved in in local

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government, creating jobs.
The fact the area that I work

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at, I'm in the EMS system and
work as a paramedic in central

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UT and this community, like half
of our EMS is people in my

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religion.
For the whole community.

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So we're we're definitely very
involved in some senses where we

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are very insular with you know
because there are some obvious

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things that really set us apart.
But I don't, I would think it's

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more cultural than anything and
just what's happened over time,

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I wouldn't say it's been
intentional, but we definitely

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started as more insular and then
this slowly become more and more

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trying to get away from that
and.

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I have my own personal opinions
on that.

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I feel like it's kind of that's
happened in a large part because

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I don't know the reason behind
this but I like to be as

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intellectually honest as I can.
There's something about close

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religions or cults.
I I say my religion is a cult by

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the actual definition it is.
There's no way around it whether

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I, I, I believe in it but it's
still a cult and but it feels

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like.
Things like child molestation

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and a lot of unfortunate things
tend to happen in social systems

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like that.
And so I feel like the A UB

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specifically has made a very
strong effort to be involved and

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to be forward about things and
communicate on things.

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I know even the Attorney General
of Utah, the leadership for my

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religion has.
Some type of a relationship with

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that?
I'm not quite sure.

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Just to try and make sure that
the state knows we're not trying

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to hide things.
We want to be very open about

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these issues because it does
happen unfortunately.

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Yeah no you're you're 100%
correct.

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And in as as I decided to do
this podcast as as I as I kind

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of felt like I received the call
to do this podcast.

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Let me let me say it like that.
I I asked, you know what what's

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the, what's one of the end goals
here?

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What What is it this we're going
to try to do here?

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And one of it, a big part of it
was we need to get out there and

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kind of tell our story, right,
All of us.

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Because if we don't, we're going
to let somebody else tell our

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story, OK.
And and it's not going to

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necessarily be the truth.
The other thing was, is this

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idea of, as I looked at what
happened down in Colorado City,

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I I I came to understand real
quick, Nothing good happens when

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you force the people into the
shadows, right?

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Because you force them into the
shadows.

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And there's always some sort of
dictator or tyrant who stands

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ready to exploit that.
And the the best thing that can

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can be done is to to shine a
light out there, right.

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The other thing is is as as
Mormon fundamentalist, I believe

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that that we, we do have a
specific calling to keep truths

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alive, right?
To to keep practice alive.

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And it's hard to do what the
Savior asked us to do in in

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being that that light on the
hill if we're constantly putting

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a bushel over our light.
And so as I started this

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podcast, it was like, OK, we're
going to kick some doors down,

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You know, I want, I want to be
able to to let the light in, so

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to speak a little bit because I
think we do live in a time now.

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Well, here's a good example.
Me and my wife's Amber and

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Tanya, we were sitting on the
couch and we were it was June,

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so it was pride month.
And I just remember looking at

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it at the girls going, do you
remember the time when our it

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was our marital situation?
That was the weirdest, right?

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And so now I think we live in a
time where where I think we we

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can, should and probably have a
responsibility to let our light

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shine a little bit more than
than maybe in the past.

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I I feel like we owe a debt of
gratitude to the former

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generation who kept these things
alive for us.

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And now we're at a different
time and we have a different

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mission now and and that
includes being more open and and

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being more willing to talk to
people.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think with that openness, I

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think my group does have a bit
of a different mentality, which

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is actually one of the reasons I
I was kind of struggling with

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thinking about who might even do
this interview that I was saying

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you might.
You might only get lucky if you

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get someone that's actually left
the faith.

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The A UB has more of the
mentality of we don't want to be

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public about it.
The a lot of the TV shows

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nowadays are people from our
religion who most people of our

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own faith weren't very happy
that they decided to make a TV

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show about it.
And we also don't want polygamy

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to be legal because we feel like
it would be taken advantage of

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at that point.
So we're actually happy that.

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That that is not legal.
I think it was temporarily.

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Then it became illegal again.
I can't, I'm not quite sure

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where that is in the state of
Utah right now.

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Right now what it looks like is
that they have, they basically

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made it like a jaywalking
ticket, right.

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And and what what I get the
feeling is, is that they they

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use it in cases where they
suspect that there is abuse

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going on.
Right.

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So if if you're just a guy with
a couple wives trying to make

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your way in the world, you're
going to be left alone by and

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00:14:07,310 --> 00:14:12,270
large, right?
If you if you if you're doing

226
00:14:12,270 --> 00:14:15,550
some shady stuff and and you
know the authorities get wind of

227
00:14:15,550 --> 00:14:18,710
it, well then that's that's the
tool that they will use to go

228
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:21,990
investigate it.
Okay, that actually sounds true

229
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:25,950
because I was told that that the
attorney general had told the

230
00:14:25,950 --> 00:14:31,070
leader of our faith he's passed
away now, but when he was that,

231
00:14:31,830 --> 00:14:35,550
that they would not be coming
after the a UB at all.

232
00:14:35,630 --> 00:14:39,830
It was mostly just meant for,
from what I understand, mostly

233
00:14:39,830 --> 00:14:44,830
meant for fathers that are
marrying minors.

234
00:14:45,180 --> 00:14:47,100
Or their sexual abuse and things
like that.

235
00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:50,020
Like something like a way to tax
on more years.

236
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I don't understand all the laws
behind it, but there's something

237
00:14:53,180 --> 00:14:56,020
along that lines.
Yeah, that's that's exactly

238
00:14:56,020 --> 00:14:59,820
right.
And I'll be honest, I won't name

239
00:14:59,820 --> 00:15:04,420
names, but there is someone from
the AG's office here in Utah

240
00:15:04,420 --> 00:15:08,900
that listens to the podcast.
He's kind of, he's kind of a fan

241
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:10,500
of it.
He's donated to the podcast.

242
00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:14,220
I mean he's he's a great guy
we've had a couple of of good

243
00:15:14,220 --> 00:15:18,900
conversations and when when I
first got that e-mail though I'm

244
00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:21,740
like am I being punked right.
Is it that was my first thought

245
00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:25,260
right.
But so I I called them up but no

246
00:15:25,260 --> 00:15:30,300
he's he's he's a fan of the show
he he donates he he subscribes

247
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:34,060
he's you know and and we'll have
really good conversations from

248
00:15:34,060 --> 00:15:37,940
time to time and so I I'm kind
of proud of that fact a little

249
00:15:37,940 --> 00:15:40,420
bit that it's been able to
bridge some of those gaps a

250
00:15:40,420 --> 00:15:44,370
little bit and and and be able
to be out there a little more

251
00:15:45,370 --> 00:15:48,450
so.
So I've I've done a couple

252
00:15:48,450 --> 00:15:51,530
episodes here and and what we're
what I've been doing Josh is

253
00:15:51,530 --> 00:15:55,490
we've we've done some episodes
where we've talked a lot about

254
00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:59,930
the history of fundamentalism
really starting with like Musser

255
00:16:01,050 --> 00:16:04,960
because I feel like a lot of us
not all but I would say a good

256
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:10,400
95 to 97% of us I would say
probably at some point trace our

257
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:15,160
lineage back through muster when
it comes to priesthood and and

258
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:22,440
and so and the man was an
absolute stud like like as as I

259
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:27,600
look at fundamentalism I'm like
that dude was the OG and just a

260
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,360
stud.
But anyway as we've done that

261
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,200
we've gotten to the point to
where and and I think this is

262
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,560
where the a UB's history would
pick up is you know musser

263
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:47,560
organs ruins he Allred and some
of the that second group I guess

264
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,840
you could say.
And so there's a, there's a

265
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,480
split that happens between a lot
of us up here in the north and

266
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,120
some of us in the South, right,
where where what happens.

267
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:03,050
And so I'd I'd really like to to
pick up from there if if you're

268
00:17:03,050 --> 00:17:05,329
comfortable doing that.
Yeah.

269
00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:07,490
Now I would like to point out, I
don't know if I mentioned this,

270
00:17:07,490 --> 00:17:10,810
but ruling is my grandfather
ruling all around that.

271
00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:13,650
You did mention that which was
absolutely cool when I heard

272
00:17:13,650 --> 00:17:21,290
that, so excuse me.
So so Ruin Ruin gets ordained

273
00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:26,290
and and things kind of kick off
from there.

274
00:17:26,609 --> 00:17:31,080
Now immediately after that, I
don't think he just sets up

275
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,040
another church right.
He doesn't like automatically

276
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,440
form the a UB.
It's it's kind of a of a a

277
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,360
subset of of folks I guess.
I don't know.

278
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:48,880
You got thoughts on that?
Well, from my understanding of

279
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,190
it, it's not so much.
Well, first up, I guess I should

280
00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:55,270
clarify that we're talking about
the same thing here.

281
00:17:55,470 --> 00:17:59,550
Are you talking about like the
group AUP as like making an

282
00:17:59,550 --> 00:18:02,550
official religion or when we
decided to become the legal

283
00:18:02,550 --> 00:18:04,390
entity?
Which aspect?

284
00:18:04,390 --> 00:18:08,230
Or kind of before that, what was
what was the state of?

285
00:18:08,590 --> 00:18:11,350
I guess in those days it was
called the Allred group, right?

286
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:15,670
Yeah yeah most people on the
outside actually still noticed

287
00:18:15,670 --> 00:18:19,070
by the all red group over the a
UB group I I think so but yeah

288
00:18:19,070 --> 00:18:23,990
the all red group as well
especially at that time so it so

289
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:26,990
this is my understanding of what
happened this is what I've been

290
00:18:26,990 --> 00:18:30,710
told.
So ruling all or excuse me,

291
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:34,270
Joseph Musser wanted to call my
grandfather.

292
00:18:34,270 --> 00:18:38,070
Ruling Allred to the council.
The members of the council at

293
00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:40,390
that time.
John White Barlow.

294
00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:45,020
Which is, excuse me?
Or is that before or after I

295
00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:47,180
think about this, John Webb
Barlow was a member of the

296
00:18:47,180 --> 00:18:49,300
council.
OK, so John Webb Barlow, who is

297
00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:55,700
actually my great grandfather on
a different side, was a member

298
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:57,900
of that council, was at Louis
Kelts.

299
00:18:57,900 --> 00:19:01,540
You know these names right now
and imagine not going to get

300
00:19:01,540 --> 00:19:05,980
them all at the top of my head.
But so Joseph White decided to

301
00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:08,980
put my grandfather, ruling
Allred on the council.

302
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,120
The entire council disagreed
with that.

303
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,480
I'm actually not sure why that
reason is because Ruin Allred

304
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,120
was a very respected person, so
I don't think it had to do with

305
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:26,440
this character.
But for one reason or another,

306
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,200
that's what happened.
Essentially, Joseph Muster says

307
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,080
to the Council, well, God.
Told me that he is needs to be

308
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,720
on this council.
So you can either accept it or I

309
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,120
can essentially just release you
so that you could put him on the

310
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:46,640
council.
The council didn't accept it and

311
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,520
so just muster released
everybody and so that council is

312
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,800
where you actually get the
eventually what becomes the

313
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,680
Warren Jeffs group.
For my understanding, it wasn't

314
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,320
that bad when when they when
they first started it, kind of.

315
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,720
Developed into what it was,
especially after Warren Jeffs.

316
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,400
But then then you get the Allred
group under my grandfather

317
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,840
ruling and then eventually they
called more council members.

318
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:19,520
And so we got this split all
after my grandfather was called.

319
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,680
I was also.
I've been also told that it

320
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,360
wasn't.
That wasn't the only thing.

321
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:28,520
There was also a lot of tension
under the surface that kind of

322
00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:31,940
boiled up and that just kind of
really exploded it.

323
00:20:32,580 --> 00:20:36,180
Things like underage marriages,
arranged marriages, and things

324
00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:40,540
along those lines, right?
You know, I'm sure there's other

325
00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:43,460
things as well.
You know I talked with Steven

326
00:20:43,460 --> 00:20:48,820
Nielsen and he's he's on the the
priesthood council in in the

327
00:20:48,820 --> 00:20:53,980
Nielsen Nailers and they're
they're a split from from first

328
00:20:53,980 --> 00:20:57,900
the the the Colorado City group
down there the FLDS.

329
00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:03,180
Then they went off from the 2nd
Ward or Centennial Park and and

330
00:21:03,180 --> 00:21:06,860
he said something that I thought
was was pretty profound and and

331
00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:10,780
I tend to agree with him is that
we we don't have a lot of good

332
00:21:10,780 --> 00:21:14,660
records of that time period
exactly that's the hard thing

333
00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:18,460
and so.
And So what What I think we get

334
00:21:18,460 --> 00:21:22,260
a lot of times is.
Kind of the, he said.

335
00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:24,900
She said stuff at this point in
the game, right?

336
00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:27,900
Where I don't, I don't think any
of us really know what happened

337
00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:29,740
for sure.
They're obviously was something

338
00:21:29,740 --> 00:21:34,340
that happened, but it it it it,
it definitely was a tumultuous

339
00:21:34,340 --> 00:21:37,380
time.
So as as the Allred group before

340
00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:40,700
they're incorporated into the A
UB, how are they functioning

341
00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:46,170
during this time?
Let's clarify that question.

342
00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:49,530
When so we could.
You said the Allred group when

343
00:21:49,530 --> 00:21:52,450
they're in the A UB, those are
the same group.

344
00:21:52,450 --> 00:21:53,890
What exactly are you trying to
ask?

345
00:21:54,330 --> 00:21:57,530
What I'm saying is, is before
they became the a UB right

346
00:21:57,530 --> 00:22:00,050
before they incorporated it into
a church.

347
00:22:01,210 --> 00:22:04,210
How is how is the Allred group
functioning then?

348
00:22:05,570 --> 00:22:09,410
Oh, OK.
So at that time, that would have

349
00:22:09,410 --> 00:22:14,210
been a lot more people meeting
at people's houses.

350
00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:18,450
In fact, there was one
particular really popular house

351
00:22:18,450 --> 00:22:20,570
to meet up.
They can't quite recall the name

352
00:22:21,210 --> 00:22:24,970
I'm trying to remember, but it
was very common for people just

353
00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:32,680
to meet at people's houses.
It was definitely at that point

354
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,400
we were still a lot more are
disorganized.

355
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,720
I feel like most people that
that tell us to your podcast

356
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,480
probably already know this, but
just in case, it's kind of like

357
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,640
mentality that the
fundamentalist Mormons are not

358
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:55,120
the church, they're not going to
organized as a specific church

359
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:59,120
like group.
And I think at that time we were

360
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:01,320
a lot more still into that
mentality.

361
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,120
And over the years, because you
know, groups congregate

362
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:07,920
together, they have the same
mentality.

363
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,960
It's only form these different
groups a UB especially.

364
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:18,520
Right as I've read it, it sounds
a lot like and and you can

365
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,870
correct me if I'm wrong here.
It sounds like there's a lot of

366
00:23:21,870 --> 00:23:25,190
like extracurricular meetings
that are happening.

367
00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:28,710
You know, so folks would go to
the LDS church, take sacrament,

368
00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:33,830
get baptized, do their
endowments in in the LDS temple,

369
00:23:33,830 --> 00:23:37,470
and then they would have like
extra meetings off to the side

370
00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:41,590
somewhere, right.
And and and that's kind of how

371
00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:44,590
they operated for for a number
of years, right.

372
00:23:47,030 --> 00:23:50,500
And and when?
I had a guy on on the podcast

373
00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:54,740
his name was Charles Orson who
was old enough he was a young

374
00:23:54,740 --> 00:24:02,860
man when your grandfather was
was still around and and older

375
00:24:02,860 --> 00:24:07,380
guy and he talks about and and
this is the part that I find

376
00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:12,740
fascinating is that in today's
fundamentalism if you will we we

377
00:24:12,740 --> 00:24:16,380
get this feeling of there must
have been tremendous animosity

378
00:24:16,380 --> 00:24:20,450
between the LDS church.
And fundamentalist, but I think

379
00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:23,850
what we see there is that that
wasn't necessarily the case.

380
00:24:24,570 --> 00:24:30,490
There's a lot of evidence to
support a couple of things.

381
00:24:30,490 --> 00:24:35,290
And and and Charles Orson
really, really illuminated that,

382
00:24:35,290 --> 00:24:41,610
which is the the LDS church
right up to David O McKay would

383
00:24:41,610 --> 00:24:45,770
send, you know, people towards
ruin.

384
00:24:45,770 --> 00:24:48,080
Allred.
To talk about these early

385
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:53,280
teachings, have you heard
something similar to that?

386
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,480
I don't know if it's the same
context that you are thinking

387
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:06,120
about, but I know that if people
from the church are listening to

388
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,240
this, they're probably going to
strongly disagree with this.

389
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,400
I'll just say, this is what I've
been taught and this is what I

390
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,080
tend to be true that.
Podcast what I did for a reason.

391
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:18,800
They know what they did.
I wouldn't know exactly up to

392
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,480
what president it was.
But for a very long time people

393
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:29,560
that were interested in polygamy
would be sent by the apostleship

394
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:39,280
of the church to people like
Joseph Musser to they couldn't,

395
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,790
they couldn't condone it because
it's the church, a body, not the

396
00:25:43,790 --> 00:25:46,630
priest the body.
And we know we believe that

397
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:51,550
those are separate.
So essentially they would just

398
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:54,990
kind of beat around the Bush
with the issue and say well if

399
00:25:54,990 --> 00:25:57,790
you really want to know
anything, talk to so and so And

400
00:25:57,790 --> 00:26:01,270
then they talked to Joe's
brother Joseph Musser and and

401
00:26:01,270 --> 00:26:04,670
find out well actually it is
okay to live polygamy, the

402
00:26:04,670 --> 00:26:08,670
church just can't condone it and
that that's quite a quite a

403
00:26:08,670 --> 00:26:11,200
subject.
I'm sure most fundamentalists

404
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,560
are quite familiar with that
whole history and kind of that

405
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,000
that beating around the Bush is
kind of comical, like the Reed

406
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:23,440
smoke here, the hearing cases.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

407
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,720
No, I was fascinated by Joseph F
Smith.

408
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,120
He was one that I always found
fascinating because he would,

409
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,000
people would approach him and be
like, you know, hey, we we think

410
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,840
we're being called the lip
plural marriage.

411
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,410
And then then he would say.
Well if you can find someone to

412
00:26:39,410 --> 00:26:44,610
do it then God bless you right
the ceremony and then they would

413
00:26:44,610 --> 00:26:47,330
be you know that that couple
would go on their way and be

414
00:26:47,330 --> 00:26:50,690
like well what what what the
hell was that And then like

415
00:26:51,010 --> 00:26:53,970
magically a few days later
someone would be like hey you

416
00:26:53,970 --> 00:26:57,330
have an appointment to meet
muster somebody else.

417
00:26:57,330 --> 00:27:01,770
So it was a fascinating time in
Mormonism that that I wish I we

418
00:27:01,770 --> 00:27:05,210
we had a few more records on.
But yeah it was kind of one of

419
00:27:05,210 --> 00:27:09,960
those things where.
It was it was like, hey, you

420
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,080
can't do that wink, wink.
And then off, off they went,

421
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,720
right.
So yeah.

422
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,960
So I do find it find it very
interesting.

423
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,680
At what point does the quote
Allred group become the a UB?

424
00:27:25,540 --> 00:27:29,660
So that's something I definitely
have no idea and I'm not sure

425
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:34,140
what I understand, though.
The only reason that it happened

426
00:27:34,140 --> 00:27:37,380
was for legal reasons.
I mean, there's taxes and things

427
00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:39,580
like that to come into account
when you're doing things like

428
00:27:39,580 --> 00:27:42,940
tithing.
So it it had to be done at some

429
00:27:42,940 --> 00:27:46,620
point.
I know a lot of, a lot of people

430
00:27:46,620 --> 00:27:48,580
were upset about it, didn't want
it to be.

431
00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:51,300
In fact, to this day, it's still
not the ideal.

432
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:53,860
It's not really.
We don't want it to be a legal

433
00:27:53,860 --> 00:27:58,460
entity, but you know, we believe
in trying our best to obey the

434
00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:00,700
laws and work with the law and
things like that.

435
00:28:00,740 --> 00:28:05,020
So, so here we are.
Right.

436
00:28:07,180 --> 00:28:12,380
Do most members of the a UB kind
of consider consider the a UB to

437
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:16,180
to still be kind of and this is
the bye bye guess.

438
00:28:16,180 --> 00:28:19,620
So if I if I read this wrong out
of the out of history.

439
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:23,740
Let me know, but I I get the
feeling almost like in those

440
00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:28,820
early days and for a long time
the a UB thought of itself, more

441
00:28:28,820 --> 00:28:31,340
like an auxiliary to the LDS
church.

442
00:28:31,340 --> 00:28:39,220
Is that a fair assessment?
I think I might under get a

443
00:28:39,220 --> 00:28:41,780
little bit where you're going
with this, but I wouldn't say an

444
00:28:41,780 --> 00:28:45,660
auxiliary that the probably the
biggest, one of the biggest

445
00:28:45,660 --> 00:28:49,580
things that separates the a UB
from other fundamentalist groups

446
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:53,550
is that we still uphold
President Nelson as the rightful

447
00:28:53,550 --> 00:28:56,670
president of the church.
We still believe in the LDS

448
00:28:56,670 --> 00:28:58,550
Church.
We believe all the keys to the

449
00:28:58,550 --> 00:29:02,430
church are are still there that
it hasn't been that hasn't

450
00:29:02,470 --> 00:29:04,590
fallen away.
We believe it's gone off track

451
00:29:05,270 --> 00:29:09,550
but not fallen.
So we support the church 100%,

452
00:29:09,550 --> 00:29:11,790
even if they don't support us,
obviously.

453
00:29:13,580 --> 00:29:18,380
But but we believe that they
hold the keys to the Church,

454
00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:21,780
which would be supported to the
keys of the priesthood, which is

455
00:29:21,780 --> 00:29:25,180
which We believe that we do hold
the right keys to the priesthood

456
00:29:25,180 --> 00:29:29,180
and that the one man you know,
we use that phrase, the one man

457
00:29:29,180 --> 00:29:31,980
who holds all the keys to the
Kingdom on this earth is the

458
00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:36,380
leader of our faith.
And the President Nelson holds

459
00:29:36,380 --> 00:29:38,180
the rightful keys to the
President of the Church.

460
00:29:38,420 --> 00:29:45,430
So two separate keys, or is it
trying to go with that?

461
00:29:45,870 --> 00:29:48,270
But yeah, that's a big
difference, especially between

462
00:29:48,270 --> 00:29:51,670
the Church and I don't know if
other fundamentalist groups are

463
00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:53,310
the same in that I would think
they are.

464
00:29:54,350 --> 00:29:56,670
Maybe you can tell me, you might
know more, but just that there's

465
00:29:56,670 --> 00:29:59,790
that separation between keys of
the priesthood and keys of the

466
00:29:59,790 --> 00:30:02,470
church that that can actually be
held by two separate people.

467
00:30:04,110 --> 00:30:06,230
I I know.
I know that.

468
00:30:08,050 --> 00:30:11,930
There there's a couple groups
that believe that the the LDS

469
00:30:11,930 --> 00:30:14,410
Church has gone completely off
the rails.

470
00:30:14,770 --> 00:30:18,130
And so there's there's a few
groups that that make the

471
00:30:18,130 --> 00:30:23,210
assertion that hey, no, their
their time has passed and we we

472
00:30:23,210 --> 00:30:29,370
hold all the keys to everything.
And then you have some who who

473
00:30:29,370 --> 00:30:32,690
feel like they just had an
alternate organization

474
00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:36,320
functioning.
At the same time the church was

475
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,680
right.
So that's maybe some of the

476
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,000
Lebaron claims in some ways
almost.

477
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,600
You know two distinct churches,
if you will.

478
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,880
Is is that the Church of the
first born?

479
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:55,560
Exactly.
So I think it, you know, ranges

480
00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:00,320
widely depending on on who
you're talking to, I think most

481
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,750
independents.
Probably look at it as, you know

482
00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:08,270
the church is going to do their
thing and you know during that

483
00:31:08,430 --> 00:31:11,870
eight hour meeting there, they
were told not to set up another

484
00:31:11,870 --> 00:31:13,350
church.
And so they're not going to do

485
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:16,110
that, right.
And just going to operate on the

486
00:31:16,110 --> 00:31:20,750
DL, have them or sneak in the
back and and partake of the

487
00:31:20,750 --> 00:31:23,750
sacrament, the LDS Church.
That's that's the other thing

488
00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:26,870
that's been fascinating about
fundamentalism is that there's

489
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:30,470
really not A1 size fits all sort
of a deal here, right?

490
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:34,020
Lot of different types.
There's a lot of different types

491
00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:37,300
for sure.
So I I think that covers pretty

492
00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:40,860
well the history that that that
I really wanted to dive into.

493
00:31:40,860 --> 00:31:42,860
So.
So you have that that split that

494
00:31:42,860 --> 00:31:47,140
happens between the the
fundamentalist down South and up

495
00:31:47,140 --> 00:31:53,420
north, the the folks down South
would become the FLDS and and I

496
00:31:53,420 --> 00:31:56,780
want to make it clear that that
the FLDS weren't always.

497
00:31:58,140 --> 00:32:01,540
Under the Jeff's family, right?
Certainly they used to be very

498
00:32:01,540 --> 00:32:04,060
different.
Yeah, certainly.

499
00:32:04,060 --> 00:32:07,620
You know when when Leroy Johnson
was there and then John Y

500
00:32:07,620 --> 00:32:11,020
Barlow, it functions a lot
differently and and you get the

501
00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:14,620
sense that those two men really
loved their people, yeah.

502
00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:18,180
And and I've made the assertion
here before and and I'm going to

503
00:32:18,180 --> 00:32:20,540
keep doing it because I think
it's important because I think

504
00:32:20,540 --> 00:32:25,580
it's an an important overall
thrust of the podcast is that.

505
00:32:26,930 --> 00:32:30,010
It it doesn't get bad for those
folks down there until the Short

506
00:32:30,010 --> 00:32:33,370
Creek raids, right?
And then they force them into

507
00:32:33,370 --> 00:32:34,890
the shadows.
And as soon as they're in the

508
00:32:34,890 --> 00:32:37,930
shadows, there's somebody
lurking, being like I told you,

509
00:32:37,970 --> 00:32:40,370
they're coming for you.
You got to listen to me to keep

510
00:32:40,370 --> 00:32:42,650
you safe.
And that's where things go bad.

511
00:32:42,930 --> 00:32:46,250
And then you have the folks up
north, the Allred group, who'd

512
00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:53,370
become the a UB, who eventually
kind of come, come what they are

513
00:32:53,370 --> 00:32:58,370
today, now.
Ruin Allred was was eventually

514
00:32:58,370 --> 00:33:05,450
assassinated by by Ervil Lebaron
who takes over at that point

515
00:33:05,450 --> 00:33:11,490
Josh.
So after Ruin Allred is shot and

516
00:33:11,490 --> 00:33:14,050
I'm sure most people listen to
this, are probably familiar with

517
00:33:14,050 --> 00:33:19,210
that story at that point.
His brother Owen Allred, he

518
00:33:19,210 --> 00:33:23,050
takes over at that point.
So for the most part, as far as

519
00:33:23,050 --> 00:33:27,440
succession goes, it if nothing
is said on the matter it will go

520
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:33,760
to the most senior, but but
people can also be appointed.

521
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,280
So the most senior definitely
isn't an always thing like it is

522
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,680
in the LDS church.
I'm not sure how other groups

523
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,280
work with that as far as
succession goes, but I think

524
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,120
that one though however, was a
matter of seniority being the

525
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,280
oldest person, so I will not
arrange the next person.

526
00:33:52,670 --> 00:33:55,350
And and now there was a bit of a
succession.

527
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:58,910
I won't say crisis, but there
was another another break off

528
00:33:58,910 --> 00:34:02,990
group from there is pretty much
every time a new person gets put

529
00:34:02,990 --> 00:34:05,110
up as as someone of one for
sure.

530
00:34:05,270 --> 00:34:09,150
In that original, after After
Ruin was assassinated, I believe

531
00:34:09,150 --> 00:34:12,710
that's where the the the, the
branch or the Peterson group

532
00:34:12,710 --> 00:34:15,510
begins as well.
Right where Gerald Peterson

533
00:34:16,030 --> 00:34:19,350
branches off was there.
Go ahead.

534
00:34:20,110 --> 00:34:23,389
I was just going to say I'm
actually not 100% sure of that.

535
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:28,110
That might be correct.
I just, I have a friend from the

536
00:34:28,110 --> 00:34:30,510
Peterson group and we've never
talked about that before, but

537
00:34:30,510 --> 00:34:33,030
that that I could be correct.
I'm not sure on that one.

538
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:37,070
But I will say every time, every
time there's a new somebody

539
00:34:37,070 --> 00:34:39,750
appointed, it feels like some
there's like somewhat of a small

540
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:41,630
break off.
So I wouldn't be surprised.

541
00:34:42,190 --> 00:34:44,750
But that seems to be par for the
course, so to speak.

542
00:34:44,870 --> 00:34:48,350
Yeah, yeah.
I think that really is

543
00:34:48,350 --> 00:34:52,540
indicative of the mentality.
I think what's interesting is

544
00:34:52,540 --> 00:34:56,699
most fundamentalist religions
are very, very not just

545
00:34:56,699 --> 00:35:00,300
Mormonism, but in general tend
to have more control.

546
00:35:02,180 --> 00:35:05,300
But when you see these splits up
always happening, I think that's

547
00:35:05,300 --> 00:35:07,300
indicative of something that's
really unique.

548
00:35:07,460 --> 00:35:10,740
I don't know if this is how it
is in the most fundamentalist

549
00:35:10,740 --> 00:35:13,300
groups in their way of thinking,
but in ours it really is.

550
00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:17,540
And that is the extremely strong
emphasis on agency, free

551
00:35:17,540 --> 00:35:21,540
thinking, you know, doing what
you want to do type of a thing.

552
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:27,220
So, so it it makes sense that
that would happen.

553
00:35:28,180 --> 00:35:33,980
I feel like, I don't know.
I hate to say it that I know

554
00:35:33,980 --> 00:35:38,180
this, but based upon people that
I have spoken to that have left

555
00:35:38,540 --> 00:35:41,300
of their fundamentalist
religions and they look at our

556
00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:46,710
religion, the A UP is extremely
liberal, very liberal.

557
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:48,710
In fact.
I haven't read our, I've read

558
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:51,790
our Wikipedia page, whoever
wrote our information on there

559
00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:54,630
and they said the world refers
to us as the liberal branch of

560
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:58,150
fundamentalism.
So yeah, very free thinking.

561
00:35:58,150 --> 00:36:00,910
So I think that makes sense that
people break away every time we

562
00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:03,390
get a new person.
Sure, sure.

563
00:36:03,830 --> 00:36:06,350
And.
And often times I've wondered

564
00:36:06,350 --> 00:36:10,870
how much is how much of that is
a product of doctrine versus

565
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:12,750
personality.
Right, Yeah.

566
00:36:13,790 --> 00:36:16,310
But what those, what those
splits entail, right?

567
00:36:16,510 --> 00:36:20,750
Is this a doctrinal issue or is
this a a personality deal?

568
00:36:21,190 --> 00:36:21,790
Right.
Yeah.

569
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:25,230
And and you'd hope and and all
that.

570
00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:28,470
And and as I've talked to
fundamentalists, the thing

571
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:31,150
that's always been surprising
and I think I'll always consider

572
00:36:31,150 --> 00:36:34,950
myself somewhat of an outsider
to Mormonism always, because I'm

573
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:38,550
a convert to the LDS Church.
Then I became a fundamentalist.

574
00:36:39,230 --> 00:36:44,820
Is that?
There's more that unites us than

575
00:36:44,820 --> 00:36:47,940
separates us, right?
And sometimes it's a bit

576
00:36:47,940 --> 00:36:51,140
frustrating to be like, okay, we
We may not hug it out on

577
00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:54,860
Sundays, but every other day of
the week we should be looking at

578
00:36:55,180 --> 00:36:58,940
ways we can work together.
Because as we're arguing about

579
00:36:59,460 --> 00:37:04,300
either who's the man?
Or, you know, certain pet

580
00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:07,680
doctrines, if you will.
And we're arguing about those,

581
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,680
the real enemies kicking down
the door and setting the

582
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,520
building on fire, right.
And so I'm like, sometimes I I

583
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,360
think we, we, we take that too
far.

584
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,120
And sometimes I've wondered if
those splits are always

585
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,480
necessary.
It it's it's made me wonder a

586
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,840
little bit So what What was Owen
like?

587
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,640
Do you have it?
Do you get any sense of what it

588
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,950
looks like?
So for the most part, Brother

589
00:37:29,950 --> 00:37:34,070
Owen was before my time, but I
was alive as a toddler.

590
00:37:34,350 --> 00:37:38,830
And let's see, what year did
Brother Owen die?

591
00:37:38,830 --> 00:37:43,310
I actually think he died in two.
I want to say 2001, the year of

592
00:37:43,310 --> 00:37:46,590
the towers.
I know he died on Valentine's

593
00:37:46,590 --> 00:37:48,870
Day if I remember correctly.
Seems like I remember it being

594
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:54,390
Valentine's Day.
But, but I I do remember

595
00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:57,230
listening to him speak at our
conferences.

596
00:37:57,630 --> 00:38:03,510
I remember he was typically a
very soft spoken person until he

597
00:38:03,590 --> 00:38:07,030
until he talked about polygamy
and wives and and women and how

598
00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:09,950
husband treat their wives.
And he would just go ballistic

599
00:38:10,030 --> 00:38:12,590
like he was a pole pounder.
Yeah, he would.

600
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:15,430
He would literally just pound
that whole bit and start yelling

601
00:38:16,790 --> 00:38:19,870
at the men.
At the men, Yeah, like at church

602
00:38:19,870 --> 00:38:23,210
and everybody I'm talking about
now.

603
00:38:23,210 --> 00:38:27,090
He was just sick and tired of of
random women coming to him

604
00:38:27,090 --> 00:38:29,850
complaining about their husbands
and just that the husbands

605
00:38:29,850 --> 00:38:32,290
needed to be more loving and
kind.

606
00:38:32,650 --> 00:38:37,170
And I I feel like as men we've
gotten better, better at being

607
00:38:37,170 --> 00:38:40,090
better husbands in our religion.
And I think a lot of that has to

608
00:38:40,090 --> 00:38:43,050
do with the culture and how
we're very pay, a patriarchal

609
00:38:43,050 --> 00:38:46,730
system.
But yeah, he was a very loving

610
00:38:46,730 --> 00:38:51,840
individual.
They love to yell, but I also

611
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,160
remember being in a big line
with the bunch, with all the

612
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,080
kids in my community, and we all
got to take a turn just to go up

613
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,320
and and shake his hand and give
him a hug because he just, he

614
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,560
just really loved all the kids
and he wanted to see everybody

615
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,440
and get a chance to say hi.
Now I remember just sitting in

616
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,080
that line for like an hour with
my mom, and I don't know how I

617
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,810
was, but I had to have been
pretty darn young, like 5-5,

618
00:39:17,810 --> 00:39:18,970
somewhere between 5:00 and
10:00.

619
00:39:19,570 --> 00:39:23,890
And I remember not being not
feeling annoyed, like generally

620
00:39:24,090 --> 00:39:28,130
wanting to go to go up and see
this guy because he was just a

621
00:39:28,130 --> 00:39:31,850
really, really kind person.
Yeah, I probably biased on that

622
00:39:31,970 --> 00:39:35,770
because he was a leader of my
own religion, but that's the

623
00:39:35,770 --> 00:39:39,410
impression that I had and
everybody that I definitely

624
00:39:39,410 --> 00:39:41,290
loved him as well.
He's a very good person.

625
00:39:41,940 --> 00:39:44,660
That's awesome.
I I got I got to be honest I

626
00:39:44,660 --> 00:39:46,980
wish I could have been there for
some of those those pulpit

627
00:39:46,980 --> 00:39:48,340
pounding sessions where he's
giving.

628
00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:55,500
So I I'm I'm always a fan of
when when when when they start

629
00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:57,540
singing your eyebrows with a
little bit of fire.

630
00:39:57,780 --> 00:40:00,860
I'm I'm, I'm kind of a fan of
that that's that's where usually

631
00:40:00,860 --> 00:40:02,500
some good doctrine gets
expounded.

632
00:40:05,060 --> 00:40:10,100
So, so and and.
It's it's under Owen that that I

633
00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:13,700
believe the a UB comes into
itself proper, right?

634
00:40:14,220 --> 00:40:20,700
And so during that, during that
time, does it begin to start

635
00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:23,820
feeling more like a church and
less like a collection of

636
00:40:23,820 --> 00:40:27,260
individuals?
Are there building programs that

637
00:40:27,260 --> 00:40:28,620
happen?
Do they start building?

638
00:40:28,620 --> 00:40:31,980
Do you guys start building
temples or chapels or stuff like

639
00:40:31,980 --> 00:40:34,980
that?
You know, I would actually say

640
00:40:35,020 --> 00:40:39,980
that it was probably.
Before Owen, obviously I was not

641
00:40:39,980 --> 00:40:45,340
alive at that time, but I say
that because under my

642
00:40:45,340 --> 00:40:49,340
grandfather ruin Allred we get
the community to Pinesdale which

643
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:54,860
which they really wanted to be a
close knit community there and

644
00:40:54,860 --> 00:40:58,100
just have their people there.
So we had that church building

645
00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:02,220
there built.
We also have our RCA building in

646
00:41:02,540 --> 00:41:07,030
Bluffdale which.
Actually now that I'm thinking

647
00:41:07,030 --> 00:41:09,790
about that, I think that I
can't, I'm not sure what year

648
00:41:09,790 --> 00:41:12,350
that was that was built, but I
want to say it was when my

649
00:41:12,350 --> 00:41:14,990
grandfather was still president,
but don't quote me on that.

650
00:41:16,470 --> 00:41:19,950
So I I would think to do is
actually under ruling Allred

651
00:41:19,950 --> 00:41:23,230
that we started to become become
a bit more like that.

652
00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:26,830
That obviously solidified more
of their own brother, Owen

653
00:41:26,830 --> 00:41:30,470
Allred, and we've gotten quite a
number of other communities that

654
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:32,360
developed.
We actually have quite a bit of

655
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,560
communities.
We're not just local to one

656
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,480
spot, so no pine fields in
Montana, is that correct?

657
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,120
That's true.
And that's the community that I

658
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,080
grew up in.
We're pretty close to the nose.

659
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,440
You know Montana's got a face,
right?

660
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,120
Yep, right there by Idaho.
Yeah, we're like the Booger of

661
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,400
Montana there.
So I've always said that portion

662
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:54,400
of.
So I grew.

663
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,730
I spent my teenage years in
Idaho, in in western Idaho, and

664
00:41:58,730 --> 00:42:01,810
I always thought that that that
section there looked like Joe

665
00:42:01,810 --> 00:42:09,890
Biden trying to somebody.
So but what was that like

666
00:42:09,890 --> 00:42:13,810
growing up in in Pinesdale?
Now let me say this, let me ask

667
00:42:13,810 --> 00:42:15,370
this before you answer that
question.

668
00:42:15,610 --> 00:42:21,210
Was Pinesdale a effort to live a
united order, or was it just a

669
00:42:21,210 --> 00:42:24,200
community?
It was an effort to live the

670
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,160
United order, sure, yeah, but
but I was really young during

671
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:33,080
that time, so I personally did
not, was not part of that

672
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,880
effort.
My dad was and he really, really

673
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,520
struggled.
People that haven't lived United

674
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,440
order and will.
Actually, people that have will

675
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,880
definitely know this living
United Order is darn near

676
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:51,800
impossible from with dealing
with just being human.

677
00:42:52,590 --> 00:42:56,310
So unfortunately it takes my dad
away from it.

678
00:42:56,310 --> 00:42:59,390
Not from our religion he's still
a member but from trying to live

679
00:42:59,390 --> 00:43:01,990
united order.
So you don't have to be in an

680
00:43:01,990 --> 00:43:07,790
order if you're in the a UB, but
it's it's a vehicle to live the

681
00:43:07,790 --> 00:43:11,030
law of consecration which we do
covenant live the law of

682
00:43:11,030 --> 00:43:15,350
consecration.
But yeah, it it was a united

683
00:43:15,350 --> 00:43:19,550
order at this point, Pinesdale
with the advent.

684
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,440
Going quite a bit forward in
your history there with the

685
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:27,040
advent of of Lynn Thompson being
appointed leader, there was a

686
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,200
big split there.
So now in Pinesdale we have our

687
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,880
group there, what they would
call the Marbites there, but

688
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,640
Brother Marvin's dead.
I don't know what they call

689
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:43,040
themselves now and then members
of the church and then just

690
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,440
everybody else that's just not
affiliated in any way.

691
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,360
It's it's a very split community
at this point.

692
00:43:49,540 --> 00:43:52,820
Got you.
So is there still a UB up there

693
00:43:52,820 --> 00:43:55,780
in Pinesdale or is it?
Yeah, there is.

694
00:43:55,820 --> 00:43:59,980
And they still have a fully
functioning group there and they

695
00:43:59,980 --> 00:44:03,060
hold their meetings there.
We actually had our last

696
00:44:03,060 --> 00:44:07,060
conference up there, which
hadn't been done in quite a long

697
00:44:07,060 --> 00:44:09,580
time after the split.
This last one was the first one

698
00:44:09,580 --> 00:44:12,220
to do that and to try and
reestablish some of those

699
00:44:12,220 --> 00:44:14,180
relationships and keep things
going there.

700
00:44:15,340 --> 00:44:18,700
So yeah, yeah, there is a
functioning a UB group there

701
00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:23,090
still awesome.
And then if if it's not if if

702
00:44:23,090 --> 00:44:24,570
you're if you're comfortable
with it.

703
00:44:24,570 --> 00:44:28,210
I know that maybe some of that
might be might you might want to

704
00:44:28,210 --> 00:44:30,250
keep on the deal.
So I I won't respect that.

705
00:44:30,250 --> 00:44:34,370
But you have other efforts like
that in the a UB underway,

706
00:44:34,370 --> 00:44:36,170
different communities and that
sort of stuff.

707
00:44:37,490 --> 00:44:41,730
Just like as far as starting
other communities goes, yeah,

708
00:44:41,730 --> 00:44:46,210
yeah, that's perfectly okay to
talk about, but so the group I'm

709
00:44:46,210 --> 00:44:50,250
a part of.
Well, I wouldn't say it's new.

710
00:44:50,770 --> 00:44:53,490
I moved here when it was new
because I want to be a part of

711
00:44:53,490 --> 00:44:57,290
the new community growing and
we're in Mount Pleasant, UT.

712
00:44:58,610 --> 00:45:01,050
So we have a fully functioning
group here.

713
00:45:01,530 --> 00:45:05,250
I I can't think, well actually
that's not true.

714
00:45:05,450 --> 00:45:08,450
Another group after that started
out in Moab.

715
00:45:08,450 --> 00:45:13,730
We got a group there and I think
we actually, that one's probably

716
00:45:13,730 --> 00:45:16,570
expected to really start growing
here coming up shortly.

717
00:45:17,380 --> 00:45:20,060
They're not like right in the
middle of the city by any means,

718
00:45:20,060 --> 00:45:22,100
their way on the outskirts from
what I understand.

719
00:45:24,020 --> 00:45:28,740
But I can't think of any other
communities right at the top of

720
00:45:28,740 --> 00:45:31,020
my head.
Though I do want to say this

721
00:45:31,020 --> 00:45:33,980
just because I feel like a lot
of because I mentioned, because

722
00:45:33,980 --> 00:45:37,860
I did say Moab and gave a
specific city just in case

723
00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:40,300
people from Moab ever listened
to this.

724
00:45:41,860 --> 00:45:44,540
People, because I feel like
people always kind of.

725
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,640
Get a little ballistic when they
find out polygamous community is

726
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,040
moving to their area until they
get to know us.

727
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,640
I look at Mount Pleasant area
that we grew up in.

728
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:58,680
The community is not one us here
at all and they made it very

729
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:03,880
well known from being kicked out
of the church.

730
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,520
When some of our members wanted
to go there just to attend the

731
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:12,720
sacrament meeting, they were
kicked out to outright rallies

732
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:17,120
and things in the newspaper.
Meetings, town hall meetings and

733
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,400
things like that.
It was pretty crazy here for a

734
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:24,040
while, but over the years I feel
like we've really earned their

735
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:29,840
respect and their trust and and
and vice versa.

736
00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:34,840
We had to take a large role in
jobs here.

737
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,040
Some of the biggest companies
here from people, from our work,

738
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,800
we're we tried to be a lot more
involved in the actual local

739
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:46,250
government here.
We're not secretive and so I

740
00:46:46,250 --> 00:46:51,650
feel like we just, we have
really good relations now and I

741
00:46:51,650 --> 00:46:53,530
feel like that's happened with
every place that we've

742
00:46:53,530 --> 00:46:55,050
established.
You see that same thing in

743
00:46:55,050 --> 00:46:57,210
Pinedale, like I was mentioning
earlier, we have really good

744
00:46:57,210 --> 00:47:00,930
relations with the local school
system and people just know us.

745
00:47:00,930 --> 00:47:03,730
They just it's not something we
had to be secretive about.

746
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,600
So if people from the lab were
listening to this and they and

747
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,400
they want to worry about that, I
wouldn't worry about that.

748
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,080
With the a UB, you'll find that
we're we're a lot more of a

749
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,440
liberal group.
And by liberal, I mean liberal

750
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,200
compared to Mormon
fundamentalism.

751
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,880
Not liberal politically, Right.
Right.

752
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,120
Yeah, I know that's an important
connotation, yeah.

753
00:47:24,860 --> 00:47:27,660
We're very conservative
politically, no.

754
00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:29,340
And Mount Pleasant's beautiful
area.

755
00:47:29,340 --> 00:47:33,500
I'm a land surveyor by
profession and I've done a

756
00:47:33,500 --> 00:47:36,780
couple of surveys out by
Indianola and Mount Pleasant in

757
00:47:36,780 --> 00:47:40,180
that area out there.
And it's always been a great

758
00:47:40,180 --> 00:47:44,620
area to be in.
And and I'll say this as well

759
00:47:44,620 --> 00:47:48,500
Josh, is that I think that's
pretty common across the board

760
00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:51,620
where people get nervous when
they hear about you know this

761
00:47:51,620 --> 00:47:54,820
polygamous sect coming into to
their community.

762
00:47:55,140 --> 00:48:00,740
As I, as I talked with that
gentleman from the, the branch,

763
00:48:00,740 --> 00:48:04,820
the Peterson group, they have a
settlement out in just outside

764
00:48:04,820 --> 00:48:07,700
the Tonopah.
And at first it was a little

765
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:10,860
dicey, right.
And then as they got settled and

766
00:48:10,860 --> 00:48:12,980
and you know, they saw, hey,
they're just trying to make

767
00:48:12,980 --> 00:48:16,220
their way through through the
world like the rest of us.

768
00:48:17,770 --> 00:48:20,730
Yeah, but you know, it really is
understandable.

769
00:48:20,890 --> 00:48:25,010
I feel like a UB has a lot
standing because we do get that

770
00:48:25,010 --> 00:48:27,490
stigma of Warren Jeffs.
That's what's in the news.

771
00:48:27,890 --> 00:48:31,890
And the fathers love their dog,
their daughters, and they're not

772
00:48:31,890 --> 00:48:36,810
going to want their daughters
around a bunch of the no, a

773
00:48:36,810 --> 00:48:39,330
bunch of dirty, horny men that
are just looking for a bunch of

774
00:48:39,330 --> 00:48:41,090
women.
And that's kind of the stigma

775
00:48:41,170 --> 00:48:45,410
that a lot of people do as that
unfortunately, which obviously.

776
00:48:45,650 --> 00:48:47,490
Is not the case?
No.

777
00:48:47,490 --> 00:48:51,090
I think you're 100% correct.
And I think that's something

778
00:48:51,090 --> 00:48:54,050
that Jeff's is going to have to
answer for in the hereafter is

779
00:48:54,050 --> 00:48:57,330
that not only did he make his
people's life hard and

780
00:48:57,330 --> 00:49:02,050
miserable, which was, which is
enough, but he, he made it

781
00:49:02,050 --> 00:49:04,330
tougher for the rest of us,
right?

782
00:49:05,770 --> 00:49:10,730
He made it tougher for the rest
of us to to to to make our way

783
00:49:10,810 --> 00:49:13,690
through the world a little bit.
And I feel like in some, some

784
00:49:13,690 --> 00:49:18,670
respects, it's now incumbent
upon guys like ourselves and and

785
00:49:18,670 --> 00:49:21,950
other fundamentalists or I
should say the vast majority of

786
00:49:21,950 --> 00:49:26,630
fundamentalists who aren't into
creepy crap to, to, to rectify

787
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:30,990
that that problem now, right?
I know, I know.

788
00:49:30,990 --> 00:49:34,310
When I when I became a
polygamist and a fundamentalist,

789
00:49:34,910 --> 00:49:37,830
I had a buddy who said, so are
your wives going to wear those

790
00:49:38,110 --> 00:49:40,550
those Prairie dresses?
And I was like only on Tuesdays.

791
00:49:40,990 --> 00:49:47,130
I mean just Tuesday so but no I
I think we got to work to do

792
00:49:47,130 --> 00:49:50,850
there definitely in in repairing
some of the the the optics if

793
00:49:50,850 --> 00:49:53,410
you will for sure.
Absolutely.

794
00:49:53,810 --> 00:49:57,090
So after after Owen passes, who
takes over then?

795
00:49:57,090 --> 00:50:00,810
Is that when Lynn Thompson
becomes becomes the the

796
00:50:00,810 --> 00:50:05,570
president?
Almost so after after brother

797
00:50:05,570 --> 00:50:10,290
Owen passes away then then we
have brother Lemoyne Jensen.

798
00:50:14,170 --> 00:50:16,650
I want to say Joseph or
Lemoyne's actually not his first

799
00:50:16,650 --> 00:50:17,890
name, but we just called him
that.

800
00:50:18,850 --> 00:50:20,730
I'm not sure.
We always referred to him as

801
00:50:20,730 --> 00:50:25,130
Brother Lemoyne.
Brother Lemoyne though, he was

802
00:50:26,210 --> 00:50:29,170
one of those very soft spoken
people as well.

803
00:50:30,090 --> 00:50:34,970
He's not somebody that I heard
yell really yell, but he but he

804
00:50:34,970 --> 00:50:37,010
definitely spoke with vigor and
passion.

805
00:50:39,510 --> 00:50:42,830
But he was also somebody that I
looked at and I thought, wow,

806
00:50:42,830 --> 00:50:45,950
that's somebody I hope I can
aspire to be like someday.

807
00:50:46,150 --> 00:50:48,590
He's the very loving person.
He didn't.

808
00:50:48,670 --> 00:50:52,950
He never knew me, but I one
personally, I never knew him

809
00:50:52,950 --> 00:50:55,070
personally.
But one incident always stood

810
00:50:55,470 --> 00:50:57,030
out.
Stands out to me when I was a

811
00:50:57,030 --> 00:51:00,830
lot younger, just randomly
running into church and him

812
00:51:00,830 --> 00:51:05,990
coming up to me and just shaking
my hand and then just saying

813
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:10,990
that he loved me.
And him just saying that to me

814
00:51:10,990 --> 00:51:12,910
just always says just always
stuck with me.

815
00:51:12,910 --> 00:51:16,030
He was a very loving person, so
that's awesome.

816
00:51:16,590 --> 00:51:19,830
Yeah, I I I wish I could have
known, could have known him

817
00:51:19,830 --> 00:51:22,790
more, but I'm somebody that's a
little bit more.

818
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:27,230
I'm very involved in my
religion, but as a lay member,

819
00:51:27,350 --> 00:51:31,670
as far as the higher up stuff
goes, I'm just, I'm not I I

820
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:33,430
don't know a lot of those things
that go on.

821
00:51:34,430 --> 00:51:36,590
So I didn't get the chance to
really know him.

822
00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:40,370
I I think that's indicative of
Mormons everywhere.

823
00:51:40,370 --> 00:51:43,490
We want to do our callings.
We want to, we want to serve,

824
00:51:43,610 --> 00:51:45,970
but at the same time we want to
keep our head down so we don't

825
00:51:45,970 --> 00:51:50,210
get something worse called.
So I think, I think that's

826
00:51:50,210 --> 00:51:52,650
that's ubiquitous across all of
Mormonism.

827
00:51:55,050 --> 00:51:57,650
So.
So how long was was Lamoine

828
00:51:57,650 --> 00:52:00,610
Jensen the the president of the
A UB?

829
00:52:02,410 --> 00:52:07,050
I'm definitely not sure on the
exact number of years on that

830
00:52:07,050 --> 00:52:13,670
one.
But if if Brother Owen died in

831
00:52:13,670 --> 00:52:17,630
2001, which I don't want to be
quoted on that one because I'm

832
00:52:17,630 --> 00:52:20,310
not 100% sure on that, this
what's in my head.

833
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:28,870
And brother Lynn was put in in
not too long ago.

834
00:52:29,190 --> 00:52:32,750
So Brother Lynn has passed away
also and he only served for like

835
00:52:32,750 --> 00:52:34,790
maybe three years, I want him to
say.

836
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:40,720
So yeah, so almost 20 years.
I would imagine Brother Lemoine

837
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,240
was the head of the priests that
in our group.

838
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,920
Maybe not quite 20 years.
Just trying to run through that

839
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,840
in my head.
You're good and and the dates

840
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,760
are aren't really important.
We don't memorize them.

841
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,520
You know the dates are aren't
important.

842
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,480
It's it's what happens during
maybe their administration

843
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,920
because and again correct me if
I'm wrong, I think it's during

844
00:53:04,130 --> 00:53:07,290
on Lemoyne Jensen's
administration that you start to

845
00:53:07,290 --> 00:53:11,050
see that there's this, for lack
of a better term, fundamentalist

846
00:53:11,050 --> 00:53:13,770
moment beginning to happen
because it's under his

847
00:53:13,770 --> 00:53:17,170
administration that that we see
shows like Sister wives come

848
00:53:17,170 --> 00:53:21,170
out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

849
00:53:23,090 --> 00:53:24,410
Sorry.
I was just going to say, yeah, I

850
00:53:24,410 --> 00:53:28,730
think Robin's actually my cousin
from one of my other mothers.

851
00:53:28,850 --> 00:53:31,800
Oh, OK.
Yeah, an outstanding person.

852
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,560
Can I I just want to say this
because I, I, I, I read so many,

853
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,040
so many rude things that people
say on YouTube and it just bugs

854
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,040
me to know.
Like people that aren't in

855
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,240
polygamy, like they don't
understand how hard it is.

856
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:47,000
And like I look at that family
and I look at how they're

857
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,000
breaking apart and all the
negative comments are said about

858
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,560
it.
Obviously there's faults that

859
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,760
happened.
I I I feel like Cody says some

860
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,880
things that I think I probably
wouldn't have said that.

861
00:53:59,770 --> 00:54:02,810
But people that live this way of
life and obviously you know as

862
00:54:02,810 --> 00:54:04,930
well like it's it's not a cake
walk.

863
00:54:04,930 --> 00:54:10,570
It is super hard and it's just
and I feel like people in the

864
00:54:10,570 --> 00:54:12,410
world they just like they just
don't get it.

865
00:54:12,410 --> 00:54:14,330
Like you don't understand how
hard it is.

866
00:54:14,650 --> 00:54:20,170
So I feel sad for the family and
and we're Robin especially

867
00:54:20,170 --> 00:54:23,130
because I kind of know her as an
outstanding person with great

868
00:54:23,130 --> 00:54:25,810
character.
It's it's sad to see what's

869
00:54:25,810 --> 00:54:28,490
happening with that.
Yeah.

870
00:54:28,690 --> 00:54:32,370
They're in our religion.
But but here's the thing right

871
00:54:32,370 --> 00:54:36,050
and and this is one thing I, I
do want to give props for is

872
00:54:36,050 --> 00:54:40,690
that they were some of the first
that that kind of start kicking

873
00:54:40,690 --> 00:54:42,370
down some doors a little bit.
Right.

874
00:54:43,930 --> 00:54:48,530
And and I think that that I, I
do think that maybe there was a

875
00:54:48,530 --> 00:54:52,050
price to be paid there
unfortunately because it's never

876
00:54:52,050 --> 00:54:53,850
easy to live under public
scrutiny.

877
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,760
That way of life on top of it,
Yeah.

878
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,400
And.
And the the other thing I would

879
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,600
say is that as I've talked to
other people who have been on

880
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:12,000
similar reality shows, I find
that can't get enough of the

881
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,240
Mormon Renegade podcast.
Well, good news, we're on

882
00:55:15,240 --> 00:55:17,680
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

883
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,840
from.
The first one, the Slightly

884
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,120
Rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

885
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,080
those pesky commercials getting
in the way.

886
00:55:25,510 --> 00:55:28,430
For those who want a slightly
more indepth experience, there's

887
00:55:28,430 --> 00:55:31,910
the Stirring It Up package where
you can hear adfree audio,

888
00:55:32,190 --> 00:55:35,950
adfree video and transcripts.
Finally, for those who want to

889
00:55:35,950 --> 00:55:39,310
go full Renegade, that package
is available to where you can

890
00:55:39,310 --> 00:55:43,070
get everything in the previous
two packages, plus an extra show

891
00:55:43,070 --> 00:55:46,430
where myself and Ben Winfield
break down the news of the day

892
00:55:46,430 --> 00:55:48,190
from a very Mormon point of
view.

893
00:55:48,550 --> 00:55:52,600
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894
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895
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:56,520
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896
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,200
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897
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,920
This episode of the podcast is
brought to you by Deseret

898
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:05,560
flag.com.
I've said this before and I

899
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,040
really mean it.
Mormonism isn't just a religion,

900
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,320
it's a culture.
As such, it has its own

901
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,040
vernacular and practices, but
also its own symbols.

902
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,840
And those symbols become even
more important and prominent

903
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,480
when you look back into our
history.

904
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,000
Perhaps one of the most
recognizable symbols of

905
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,600
Mormonism is the Deseret flag.
This is the flag that I use as

906
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,240
cover art in this podcast.
This was also used for a good

907
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:29,560
chunk of time during the Pioneer
era in Utah.

908
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,800
Now, today we have people who
want to replace the existing

909
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,800
Utah flag with some other
progressive monstrosity.

910
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,000
Well, I think it's damn past
time that we start pushing back

911
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,790
here a little bit in Utah.
Our friends at Defending Utah

912
00:56:41,790 --> 00:56:44,150
are here to help you with that.
Now if you go to

913
00:56:44,150 --> 00:56:47,870
deseretflag.com, you can now
purchase your own Deseret State

914
00:56:47,870 --> 00:56:50,110
flag.
It's time here that we start

915
00:56:50,110 --> 00:56:53,310
making ourselves known and join
the resistance against those who

916
00:56:53,310 --> 00:56:55,270
seek to rewrite our state's
history.

917
00:56:55,670 --> 00:57:00,230
Go to deseretflag.com or check
out the link in this episode's

918
00:57:00,230 --> 00:57:02,430
page show notes and get yours
today.

919
00:57:03,230 --> 00:57:07,150
The the the producers of that
show have a vested interest in

920
00:57:07,150 --> 00:57:12,220
there being drama.
I I've often wondered how many

921
00:57:12,220 --> 00:57:15,980
of those things in the course of
everyday life would be things

922
00:57:15,980 --> 00:57:20,820
that would be worked out really
easily when the cameras weren't

923
00:57:20,820 --> 00:57:22,860
around.
But because they have to

924
00:57:22,900 --> 00:57:27,140
generate drama in order to keep
eyes on the TV, it it

925
00:57:27,140 --> 00:57:30,540
exacerbates problems.
Yeah, I thought about that too.

926
00:57:30,540 --> 00:57:33,620
Like just the fact that they
know they're on camera is going

927
00:57:33,620 --> 00:57:36,100
to alter how they're going about
the problem.

928
00:57:38,060 --> 00:57:39,400
Yeah, very true.
Yeah.

929
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,960
No, it was, it was a brave, bold
move that they did.

930
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,120
I mean, as much as I'm all for
being open and honest and

931
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:49,680
transparent, the last thing I
want is a bunch of cameras

932
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,120
running through my house.
I'm, I'm kind of grumpy anyway.

933
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,960
So I mean, if I came home from
work, you know, sweating outside

934
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,560
at in July at 90 degrees, and I
see in my doorway as I first

935
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,280
walk in, I'm probably going to
give that thing, you know, the

936
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,680
old shake as I walk through and
then, you know, tell me.

937
00:58:07,890 --> 00:58:09,890
Yeah, so yeah, I wouldn't have
dared.

938
00:58:10,170 --> 00:58:12,010
I wouldn't dare to do that in a
million years.

939
00:58:12,010 --> 00:58:16,010
Our way of life is so hard.
And honestly, I just wouldn't

940
00:58:16,010 --> 00:58:18,570
want the world to see me in my
weaknesses like that.

941
00:58:18,570 --> 00:58:22,210
Because twelve marriage brings
out your weaknesses really bad.

942
00:58:22,650 --> 00:58:27,090
It's really hard to overcome It
it it it, it's the perfect

943
00:58:27,090 --> 00:58:30,930
mirror for exposing some of your
flaws, right?

944
00:58:30,930 --> 00:58:35,570
Whether that's selfishness,
whether that's your temperament

945
00:58:35,570 --> 00:58:39,090
any of those things and and and
if you're humble enough I think

946
00:58:39,090 --> 00:58:42,930
and willing to take the
criticism that comes your way.

947
00:58:42,930 --> 00:58:48,530
At times it can be a very
beautiful vehicle to refine a

948
00:58:48,530 --> 00:58:53,170
person.
But I I think it's that humility

949
00:58:53,170 --> 00:58:55,690
that is is so desperately
needed.

950
00:58:55,690 --> 00:59:01,370
I know, I know when when I'm
living, when living plural

951
00:59:01,370 --> 00:59:05,450
marriage, I definitely, it helps
me become a better husband.

952
00:59:05,650 --> 00:59:08,690
Right.
Because sometimes it's easy when

953
00:59:08,690 --> 00:59:12,090
it's just you and another
another wife to just want to

954
00:59:12,090 --> 00:59:14,810
stand your ground, right.
It's just two people arguing

955
00:59:15,250 --> 00:59:18,290
when there's someone else who's
like, you know you might be

956
00:59:18,290 --> 00:59:20,810
wrong here.
You may want to at the door.

957
00:59:21,490 --> 00:59:25,690
It causes a little bit of more
introspection and like well

958
00:59:25,690 --> 00:59:30,170
maybe I am being an ass right
and so and so you you you step

959
00:59:30,170 --> 00:59:34,040
back and and you you have to
take stock of who you are and

960
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:39,160
and then and then make those
changes the the blessing comes

961
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,680
though I think Josh in that and
I don't know what your

962
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:45,960
experience has been in those
times I've had that self self

963
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:50,200
that that introspection.
A lot of growth happens and and

964
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:54,360
love increases, but if you're
not humble enough to to be

965
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,680
called out on your BS, so to
speak, it can.

966
00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,440
It can be a rough, a rough thing
for.

967
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:01,920
Now that's the thing, and I'm
sure.

968
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,840
Pretty much everybody in LDS
history is heard at one point or

969
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:09,000
another that that polygamy damn
more people than it will save.

970
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:15,120
If if if you're not on top of
the game and you're not actively

971
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:19,520
trying to be a better person,
actively trying to be humble and

972
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:23,960
actively communicating, you're
going to get ripped apart.

973
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:27,800
It.
It really forces you to to

974
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:32,460
either make the choice to be
that patient loving husband and

975
01:00:32,460 --> 01:00:36,620
father or to go the other way
because you can't handle the

976
01:00:36,620 --> 01:00:42,100
pressure and give up, blow up.
And unfortunately with what

977
01:00:42,100 --> 01:00:45,660
happens, I dare say most
polygamous families, they end up

978
01:00:45,660 --> 01:00:49,060
breaking apart because it's just
an insurmountable of stress.

979
01:00:49,820 --> 01:00:54,540
Emotional pain for the wives.
Insurmountable stress for the

980
01:00:54,540 --> 01:00:58,680
husbands.
It it is really, really

981
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:02,040
stressful when your wives
disagree.

982
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,160
In fact, it's more stressful
when your wives disagree with

983
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:08,120
each other than it is when all
of your wives disagree with you.

984
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:09,960
It's like your wives can be on
the same page.

985
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:15,560
You can deal with that and yeah,
yeah, it makes you or breaks you

986
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:19,320
and you really have to be on top
of it and trying to be a good

987
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,520
person and build your character.
Yeah.

988
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,190
So that's kind of what we're
talking about earlier.

989
01:01:26,190 --> 01:01:29,670
It's not what people think.
It's not like the husband is

990
01:01:29,670 --> 01:01:31,990
just the head of the family.
They say do this and everybody

991
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:36,150
obeys their will.
It's it's really trying to

992
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:39,590
communicate and have a
functioning unit between the

993
01:01:39,590 --> 01:01:41,990
husband and the wives.
It's hard.

994
01:01:42,510 --> 01:01:46,630
Yeah, no, I I get emails from
times and and once I got an

995
01:01:46,630 --> 01:01:53,030
e-mail from a lady who who who
basically called me every name

996
01:01:53,030 --> 01:01:55,720
you could think of.
And then I was like, you should

997
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:57,800
come take a look at my house
right.

998
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:02,680
If you think that that I'm the
you know, heavy-handed patriarch

999
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:06,080
that runs around here with my
chest out, you should take a

1000
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,200
look at how often I get my ass
handed to me.

1001
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,520
Yeah, no, I I definitely.
But.

1002
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:18,480
But I also want to say this, it
is a lot of work, a lot of

1003
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:23,960
responsibility, but the the
blessings that come from.

1004
01:02:24,250 --> 01:02:28,410
Living this way are just
absolutely divine.

1005
01:02:28,530 --> 01:02:34,130
I don't know how else to put it
it it it absolutely is divine

1006
01:02:35,010 --> 01:02:41,330
and and if if, when when there's
unity it's I've often sat back

1007
01:02:41,330 --> 01:02:43,890
and looked and and I'm really
blessed I should say this up

1008
01:02:43,890 --> 01:02:45,330
front.
I am super blessed.

1009
01:02:46,530 --> 01:02:50,770
My wife's get along great.
They really the world of

1010
01:02:50,770 --> 01:02:56,560
difference, yeah.
Ton of difference And as you

1011
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:00,800
know that and sometimes they get
united around you know playfully

1012
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:02,640
poking at me a little bit.
Right.

1013
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,160
Like they call the pod past my
third wife.

1014
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,120
Right.
They they they're they're

1015
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,200
they're they're very
good-natured and and they

1016
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:15,200
support me and and what I got to
do and and really they're

1017
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,110
they're.
They're so much better than I

1018
01:03:17,110 --> 01:03:19,590
am, Josh.
Like sometimes I'm like, you two

1019
01:03:19,590 --> 01:03:21,830
should do the podcast.
People would like you a lot

1020
01:03:21,830 --> 01:03:25,110
better than they like me.
But no, I'm.

1021
01:03:25,110 --> 01:03:28,950
I'm really blessed that way.
All right, moving, moving back

1022
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:31,550
along here.
So Lemoyne dies and then Lynn

1023
01:03:31,550 --> 01:03:36,110
Thompson takes over anything of
within the a UB during his

1024
01:03:36,110 --> 01:03:38,150
administration.
That's really noteworthy.

1025
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:45,920
So that actually was an extreme
upheaval in our religion when

1026
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,000
yeah, that's where we get the
split in Pinedale that I was

1027
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:54,880
talking about earlier.
But so brother Lynn gets called

1028
01:03:54,920 --> 01:04:00,400
and he's actually called not by
seniority but by direct calling

1029
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:05,160
from brother Lemoyne before
brother Lemoyne passes and

1030
01:04:05,650 --> 01:04:10,410
brother Lynn just lost it in
tears and said right on the spot

1031
01:04:10,410 --> 01:04:13,570
if you appoint me it will
completely destroy our religion.

1032
01:04:14,610 --> 01:04:19,850
And Brother Lemoyne said that's
that's what heavenly father's

1033
01:04:19,850 --> 01:04:22,130
telling me to do is that you
need to be.

1034
01:04:22,130 --> 01:04:27,490
I'm not sure why, but you're
called and the reason behind why

1035
01:04:27,810 --> 01:04:33,050
Brother Lynn said that that it
would split our group up was

1036
01:04:33,050 --> 01:04:37,010
because he had gotten in trouble
with tax.

1037
01:04:38,570 --> 01:04:42,010
I don't know if it would be
called tax brought legally, but

1038
01:04:42,010 --> 01:04:45,490
he took tithing money and used
it for personal reasons and got

1039
01:04:45,490 --> 01:04:52,410
himself into a lot of trouble.
He he he personally take

1040
01:04:52,410 --> 01:04:55,170
himself.
He made a public apology about

1041
01:04:55,170 --> 01:04:56,930
it.
He took the legal consequence,

1042
01:04:56,930 --> 01:05:00,410
everything that had to have been
done when it first happened, not

1043
01:05:00,610 --> 01:05:02,130
like immediate after it
happened.

1044
01:05:02,130 --> 01:05:03,890
This wasn't like he did it after
he was called.

1045
01:05:05,570 --> 01:05:12,210
And there were also allegations
of allegations of sexual

1046
01:05:12,210 --> 01:05:14,930
misconduct that had happened
years previously.

1047
01:05:17,030 --> 01:05:20,110
So if I caused a massive
upheaval, a very big one for

1048
01:05:20,110 --> 01:05:23,870
that reason, I would imagine.
More so for the sexual

1049
01:05:23,870 --> 01:05:27,350
misconduct, of course, because
the A UB has tried so hard to

1050
01:05:27,350 --> 01:05:35,880
get away from that, that stigma.
But nevertheless he was and and

1051
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:39,760
my experience with him being
being in charge was that he did

1052
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,240
a good job of it.
I know with the stuff that he

1053
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,200
was accused of he wrote letters
to those people.

1054
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,760
They're actually public domain
lest I remembered.

1055
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:51,160
I can't remember the website at
the top of my head but I think

1056
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,720
those letters are public domain.
The ones that he wrote and the

1057
01:05:53,720 --> 01:06:01,320
ones that the that the lady
wrote back to him and and I am

1058
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:04,520
told that he also turned himself
into police just to make sure

1059
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:07,480
that the A UB was being upfront
with the government about

1060
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:11,440
everything.
So it's my understanding he did

1061
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,840
everything he could.
As far as the nature of what

1062
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,000
actually happened and things
like that.

1063
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:20,320
I'm honestly not sure.
I've always adopted the

1064
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,000
mentality.
We have this thing in our

1065
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:26,280
religion that came under Joseph
Muster actually.

1066
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,160
So maybe you've heard of it like
the it's called the older

1067
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,000
brotherhood.
We just don't believe things

1068
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:33,240
about people unless we've spoken
to them.

1069
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:39,080
So my mentality on it has been,
I can't really talk to Brother

1070
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:43,240
Lynn about this directly.
I can't directly figure this

1071
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:49,000
out.
So I'm going to choose to, I

1072
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:51,120
hate to say, not believe it
because that's a dangerous

1073
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,720
mentality to go down when it
goes when it comes to sexual

1074
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:59,600
abuse or misconduct.
So if I'm going to be 100%

1075
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,320
honest, that's kind of a
cognitive dissonant area in my

1076
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:06,360
life there.
Like it didn't really match up.

1077
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:10,560
I felt like most likely there
was some stuff that happened,

1078
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:15,040
but I don't know 100% and I
just, I just kind of felt like I

1079
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:16,760
don't know the reasons behind
it.

1080
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:22,160
I don't feel like worst case
scenario, he did do things, have

1081
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:27,460
sexual misconduct.
Then I had to think about what

1082
01:07:27,500 --> 01:07:30,780
would that take away?
The keys, the actual physical

1083
01:07:30,780 --> 01:07:32,260
keys.
Because in Mormonism we're

1084
01:07:32,260 --> 01:07:35,700
taught that the keys can be
passed on, but you can still be

1085
01:07:36,060 --> 01:07:41,780
a bad person and and but still
have those keys to pass on, You

1086
01:07:41,780 --> 01:07:45,260
know, they just wouldn't be able
to actually exercise the rights

1087
01:07:45,260 --> 01:07:47,340
of the priesthood because those
operate on the principles of

1088
01:07:47,380 --> 01:07:51,500
righteousness.
But everything I saw of him was

1089
01:07:51,500 --> 01:07:55,680
he was a really good person.
And like, I I read, read like

1090
01:07:55,680 --> 01:08:01,680
the letters and I feel like it.
It wasn't like rape or like

1091
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:04,680
outright sexual misconduct.
The more just really

1092
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:10,080
uncomfortable situations.
And so I I honestly just don't

1093
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:11,360
know what to think about all
that.

1094
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:15,720
It has been an area of cognitive
dissonance in my brain that I

1095
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:23,700
kind of had to work through.
But but I don't feel like I was

1096
01:08:23,700 --> 01:08:26,779
never somebody that thought, Oh
my gosh, I don't know if I'm in

1097
01:08:26,779 --> 01:08:30,340
the right place here.
I I just, I believe in May you

1098
01:08:30,340 --> 01:08:34,140
be so strongly that in my brain
and the way I process this

1099
01:08:34,380 --> 01:08:38,180
processed it in my head was I'm
just going to stay here.

1100
01:08:38,740 --> 01:08:42,540
I don't know the answers to
everything, but God will work it

1101
01:08:42,540 --> 01:08:44,859
out in the end.
I'll just keep it trudging up.

1102
01:08:45,100 --> 01:08:48,859
And that's what I did.
I I I need to I need to throw.

1103
01:08:48,859 --> 01:08:50,939
Kudos your way.
It takes.

1104
01:08:51,420 --> 01:08:54,779
It takes a little bit of
fortitude to say it nicely, to

1105
01:08:54,779 --> 01:08:56,979
be able to to admit that that
there's a little bit of

1106
01:08:56,979 --> 01:08:59,819
cognitive dissidence there
because that's an uncomfortable

1107
01:08:59,819 --> 01:09:02,100
place to be.
It is, yeah.

1108
01:09:02,500 --> 01:09:05,979
Yeah, you feel.
There myself a few times that's

1109
01:09:05,979 --> 01:09:11,500
that's not an easy place to be
whatsoever and so to to be able

1110
01:09:11,500 --> 01:09:13,859
to admit that.
Is fantastic.

1111
01:09:13,939 --> 01:09:18,060
I I do you know I can't speak to
what happened under Lynn

1112
01:09:18,060 --> 01:09:21,939
Thompson's in administration.
A lot of what you said was was

1113
01:09:21,939 --> 01:09:24,180
pretty new to me.
Yeah.

1114
01:09:24,500 --> 01:09:27,819
I think the fact that he turned
himself into the authorities I I

1115
01:09:27,819 --> 01:09:32,500
think is is admirable, right?
That, yeah, My understanding is

1116
01:09:32,500 --> 01:09:37,460
that he went, he really, really
pushed to be forward, take

1117
01:09:37,460 --> 01:09:40,140
accountability for the past
mistakes that he had made.

1118
01:09:42,939 --> 01:09:45,060
It was a good leader from what I
saw.

1119
01:09:45,500 --> 01:09:47,700
Yeah, I was going to say if
anything it shows a love for his

1120
01:09:47,700 --> 01:09:51,260
people that to to go out there
and say you know what, this is

1121
01:09:51,260 --> 01:09:56,860
on me and and not my people.
So, so when when he passes, who

1122
01:09:56,860 --> 01:09:59,340
takes over then?
So yeah.

1123
01:09:59,340 --> 01:10:01,940
So Brother Lynn, I can't
remember how many years it had

1124
01:10:01,940 --> 01:10:04,820
to have only been like three
years, but he all of a sudden

1125
01:10:04,820 --> 01:10:09,620
just it was he did have
congestive heart failure, but he

1126
01:10:09,620 --> 01:10:11,580
honestly thought he was going to
live for a long time.

1127
01:10:11,580 --> 01:10:13,740
They just randomly died really
quick.

1128
01:10:13,740 --> 01:10:17,420
It was really sudden.
And then at that point we have

1129
01:10:17,420 --> 01:10:20,500
really Dave Watson who is still
currently the head of the

1130
01:10:20,500 --> 01:10:25,260
priesthood for our group.
And really Dave Watson is

1131
01:10:26,420 --> 01:10:31,700
heavily loved individual.
He really appeals to my

1132
01:10:31,700 --> 01:10:35,060
generation, the millennials and
the upcoming generations.

1133
01:10:36,420 --> 01:10:39,730
He is just he'll say a lot of
things that you just wouldn't

1134
01:10:39,730 --> 01:10:44,530
expect someone like that to say
like like I love watching Top

1135
01:10:44,530 --> 01:10:46,250
Gun on Sunday and things like
that.

1136
01:10:48,450 --> 01:10:53,970
He he's he's a very forgiving
person, like just this whole

1137
01:10:53,970 --> 01:10:58,410
nature.
He's not intense by any means.

1138
01:10:59,210 --> 01:11:03,810
He's he's really liked by our
generation and tends to rifle

1139
01:11:03,810 --> 01:11:08,140
some feathers with the older
generation but but I absolutely

1140
01:11:08,140 --> 01:11:09,380
love him.
I think he's awesome.

1141
01:11:09,820 --> 01:11:13,540
He's just he's someone he's
probably the first leadership

1142
01:11:13,940 --> 01:11:16,780
person that's the head of our
priest that that I wish I had

1143
01:11:16,780 --> 01:11:18,940
known as like best friends
growing up.

1144
01:11:21,620 --> 01:11:24,660
Gotcha.
But he's been in charge.

1145
01:11:24,660 --> 01:11:26,140
I think it's only been like one
year now.

1146
01:11:26,140 --> 01:11:28,500
Can't remember.
I think it's only been one year,

1147
01:11:28,580 --> 01:11:30,540
so not long.
Okay.

1148
01:11:30,780 --> 01:11:32,820
All right, Good deal.
So.

1149
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:35,600
That kind of catches us up on
the history side.

1150
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:38,120
Now I'd like to talk about a
little bit if you're comfortable

1151
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,760
with it, maybe some of the
culture and the practices around

1152
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:44,560
the A UB.
So I'm, I'm just going to throw

1153
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:47,400
some questions out there and and
we'll kind of run with those.

1154
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:52,800
So, Adam, God doctrine, is that
something that you guys believe?

1155
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:56,800
Yeah, that is definitely a big
difference between us and the

1156
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:00,480
LDS Church.
We absolutely, 100% believe that

1157
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:05,920
it is something that's still
considered pretty sacred to us.

1158
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:08,480
So I wouldn't say it's like
heavily spoken about like a

1159
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:12,480
church and things like that.
But yeah, it's definitely one of

1160
01:12:12,480 --> 01:12:14,640
the core things that separate us
for sure.

1161
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,240
It's a beautiful doctrine.
It really is.

1162
01:12:17,480 --> 01:12:22,520
Now I've I did a two-part series
on the Adam God Doctrine with

1163
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:27,960
with Jacob Vidrine who has a who
I felt had a really good handle

1164
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:30,920
on it and now that was some of
the higher.

1165
01:12:32,050 --> 01:12:38,410
Entire listened to and most
download episodes and and it was

1166
01:12:38,410 --> 01:12:43,130
like the first two and and and
some of some of the response I

1167
01:12:43,130 --> 01:12:47,810
got back were absolutely amazing
and and there's a large segment

1168
01:12:47,810 --> 01:12:52,730
of my audience that is card
carrying devout LDS folks and

1169
01:12:53,410 --> 01:12:57,690
and some of the best feedback I
ever got was now the endowment

1170
01:12:57,690 --> 01:12:59,690
makes so much more sense now
that I.

1171
01:13:00,510 --> 01:13:03,670
I understand this right?
And and when you get down to the

1172
01:13:03,870 --> 01:13:09,110
to things like the endowment, it
really is a master class in Adam

1173
01:13:09,110 --> 01:13:11,750
God doctrine, right?
That's what it's really all

1174
01:13:11,750 --> 01:13:16,310
about.
And to to me it's just such a

1175
01:13:16,310 --> 01:13:18,830
beautiful doctrine.
It made God so much more

1176
01:13:18,830 --> 01:13:23,590
approachable.
He wasn't some distant figure

1177
01:13:23,590 --> 01:13:27,510
somewhere, now he was.
He was a dad.

1178
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:31,000
And.
And I think that's a beautiful

1179
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:34,960
thing.
Yeah, I've always felt that way

1180
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:36,160
as well.
It does make it.

1181
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:40,200
It makes it a lot more personal.
It's definitely a blasphemous

1182
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:42,560
concept to the rest of the
question world.

1183
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:51,000
But but it's definitely
beautiful in Mormonism and I

1184
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:56,680
wish, I wish the LDS Church took
more of a dive into that to kind

1185
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:59,170
of we get we get a little bit
more of an understanding on

1186
01:13:59,170 --> 01:14:00,570
that.
I feel like for the most part of

1187
01:14:00,570 --> 01:14:03,930
the LDS church at least on the
scholarship aspect of the

1188
01:14:03,930 --> 01:14:07,970
community of the LDS Church has
finally saying yeah Brigham

1189
01:14:07,970 --> 01:14:11,170
Young did teach this.
It's no longer like denied like

1190
01:14:11,170 --> 01:14:16,010
it used to be, but but I still
feel like it's not understood by

1191
01:14:16,010 --> 01:14:19,450
any means.
No, no, And and what's been

1192
01:14:19,450 --> 01:14:24,860
frustrating a little bit is.
Once you once you understand

1193
01:14:24,860 --> 01:14:27,660
Adam God doctrine, it opens up a
bunch of other things too.

1194
01:14:27,660 --> 01:14:30,460
Like right now I know one of the
things that some of the sisters

1195
01:14:30,460 --> 01:14:33,700
in the LDS church are really
struggling with is is who is

1196
01:14:33,700 --> 01:14:38,740
heavenly Mother right And and
funny I'm like well we we kind

1197
01:14:38,740 --> 01:14:41,780
of have those answers right.
Like I I feel like in some ways

1198
01:14:42,580 --> 01:14:48,460
fundamentalists are the monks,
if you will, of more, right?

1199
01:14:49,220 --> 01:14:52,140
Because we're keeping some of
those old.

1200
01:14:53,470 --> 01:14:57,350
Sacred truths alive, right And
and my hope is that we can

1201
01:14:57,350 --> 01:15:00,510
actually be of service to some
of our LDS brothers and sisters

1202
01:15:00,710 --> 01:15:02,630
when those questions come up.
Right.

1203
01:15:02,910 --> 01:15:05,230
And we can say you don't have to
throw the baby out with the

1204
01:15:05,230 --> 01:15:07,590
bathwater.
Here's something to look at.

1205
01:15:07,790 --> 01:15:11,510
Maybe this will help.
And you know, I'm I'm also a guy

1206
01:15:11,510 --> 01:15:15,830
who believes that I I would
rather see someone stay in the

1207
01:15:15,830 --> 01:15:20,310
LDS church if if that's their
desire, than to just throw the

1208
01:15:20,310 --> 01:15:23,770
baby out with the bathwater.
With with Mormonism.

1209
01:15:23,770 --> 01:15:27,130
So if if the podcast helps
people make sense of some of

1210
01:15:27,130 --> 01:15:30,290
these older doctrines and and
that allows them to continue to

1211
01:15:30,290 --> 01:15:33,890
serve in the LDS church and
continue to to walk that Mormon

1212
01:15:33,890 --> 01:15:37,930
path, I'm all for it.
Because some of these things

1213
01:15:37,930 --> 01:15:41,130
have been shrouded in mystery
for so long that they become

1214
01:15:41,130 --> 01:15:44,090
scary.
And then you have you have anti

1215
01:15:44,130 --> 01:15:49,170
Mormon individuals who will use
just small excerpts from a

1216
01:15:49,170 --> 01:15:54,010
larger sermon to.
To use it against us, almost.

1217
01:15:54,410 --> 01:15:56,970
And so there's there's one of
those, it's one of those things

1218
01:15:56,970 --> 01:15:58,810
where I'm like, we just need to
embrace this.

1219
01:15:59,970 --> 01:16:02,210
Yeah, absolutely.
Agree with that.

1220
01:16:03,650 --> 01:16:06,250
How about a missionary program?
Do you guys have a missionary

1221
01:16:06,250 --> 01:16:10,810
program?
So that's kind of like so

1222
01:16:11,010 --> 01:16:13,690
because we believe the LDS
Church holds the rightful keys

1223
01:16:13,690 --> 01:16:16,490
to the priesthood.
So that would be a key that

1224
01:16:16,530 --> 01:16:21,200
operates under the church, the
ecclesiastical unit.

1225
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,360
So, So we believe the
missionaries are doing that

1226
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:28,240
work.
I, I, I desperately want to be a

1227
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:30,960
missionary.
I I think that's just sounds so

1228
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:33,280
awesome, but I've just, I've
never never gotten that

1229
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:36,360
opportunity.
So they're doing that basically

1230
01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:39,040
with the a UB and I would
imagine it's probably the

1231
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:42,230
mentality for most
fundamentalist Mormons, it's

1232
01:16:42,310 --> 01:16:45,110
it's basically our job and our
work.

1233
01:16:45,150 --> 01:16:48,830
The work is also a name that
we're known by to keep

1234
01:16:48,950 --> 01:16:53,950
everything alive, irrespective
of the LDS church, which is kind

1235
01:16:53,950 --> 01:16:57,150
of how it started with with pro
marriage, because we believe in

1236
01:16:57,150 --> 01:17:01,870
the fullness of times, we
believe that all the laws that

1237
01:17:01,870 --> 01:17:05,950
have ever existed, all the laws
under Heavenly Father are

1238
01:17:05,950 --> 01:17:09,870
supposed to be brought down now.
And so basically it's our job to

1239
01:17:09,870 --> 01:17:13,190
keep it alive and it's kind of
our prophetic narrative that

1240
01:17:13,190 --> 01:17:16,990
eventually the LDS church and
the priest that will be reunited

1241
01:17:16,990 --> 01:17:19,030
again and we'll be back to one
unit.

1242
01:17:20,430 --> 01:17:21,670
Okay.
All right.

1243
01:17:21,910 --> 01:17:24,310
So how, how do you guys gain
converts?

1244
01:17:24,310 --> 01:17:27,950
And is this mainly people coming
from the LDS Church then who

1245
01:17:28,430 --> 01:17:30,470
have these questions and they
reach out to you?

1246
01:17:31,070 --> 01:17:33,590
Yeah, definitely.
Mostly from the LDS Church.

1247
01:17:33,590 --> 01:17:36,910
We've gotten a couple people
that come outside the LDS

1248
01:17:36,910 --> 01:17:39,380
Church.
But generally what happens if

1249
01:17:39,380 --> 01:17:44,020
you're outside the LDS church is
you're told to go join the LDS

1250
01:17:44,020 --> 01:17:49,460
Church because for a couple
reasons, because you need to

1251
01:17:49,460 --> 01:17:53,500
have an understanding of the
basics, faith, repentance, you

1252
01:17:53,500 --> 01:17:57,060
know, things like that.
And the LDS church is amazing to

1253
01:17:57,060 --> 01:18:00,420
teaching those things and
building character and just

1254
01:18:00,660 --> 01:18:06,140
being trained to be good people.
So they would stay there for a

1255
01:18:06,140 --> 01:18:09,320
while and then they do the
discussions that we do, which

1256
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:12,400
isn't your typical like church
discussions or you have for

1257
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:15,920
discussions and then you know
the choice to be baptized after

1258
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:18,960
that with us.
It's a very long process.

1259
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:21,680
I don't know how long.
I would imagine it's got to be

1260
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:26,520
like six months to a year
because it essentially what

1261
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:30,360
happens is people join our
religion and they have a go at

1262
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:34,520
it and then they enter polygamy
and they just weren't all

1263
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:37,280
prepared for it and it just
destroys their families.

1264
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:41,800
There's a lot of hesitancy.
People have to be really sure

1265
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:45,080
that they're 100% committed and
really believe it.

1266
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,560
So it's definitely not easy to
join the a UB.

1267
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:53,040
It's as far as time what time
goes, it takes a while.

1268
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:55,760
But yeah, mostly from the church
though.

1269
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:58,480
People get their hands on things
like the Journal of Discourses.

1270
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:02,850
That's actually how my dad was
converted because he he's in

1271
01:19:02,850 --> 01:19:05,930
your situation actually.
You converted to the church and

1272
01:19:05,930 --> 01:19:10,530
then started reading Journal of
Discourses and slowly started

1273
01:19:10,530 --> 01:19:13,970
getting curious about things she
was reading there and eventually

1274
01:19:13,970 --> 01:19:16,130
found a UB and the rest is
history.

1275
01:19:17,530 --> 01:19:20,770
How do how do people that come
out of the LDS church usually

1276
01:19:20,770 --> 01:19:24,890
find you then?
I mean, is it is it hard to

1277
01:19:24,890 --> 01:19:28,290
track down someone from the a UB
to to talk with folks or

1278
01:19:29,290 --> 01:19:31,130
absolutely not.
Yeah, we're.

1279
01:19:32,070 --> 01:19:35,070
I guess it might be difficult to
to know a member when you see

1280
01:19:35,070 --> 01:19:39,710
them because we generally are
for the most part kind of keep

1281
01:19:39,710 --> 01:19:43,590
it to ourselves.
I'm an exception to that.

1282
01:19:43,630 --> 01:19:45,950
I've always just loved talking
about religion, so I'm a lot

1283
01:19:45,950 --> 01:19:48,150
more open than your average a UV
member.

1284
01:19:49,910 --> 01:19:52,950
I would imagine it.
It's got to be pretty easy

1285
01:19:52,950 --> 01:19:58,400
though between just finding a
name on Google.

1286
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,400
I mean these days with the
Internet you can do they can

1287
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:05,680
find pretty much anything you
want and but our community is

1288
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:08,920
also they're very obvious that
they're there and we're not like

1289
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:11,960
a close knit community people
know that we're there and see us

1290
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:13,760
around town in the public all
the time.

1291
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:17,960
So it it I'm not an outsider, so
I can't say but.

1292
01:20:18,460 --> 01:20:20,060
I don't.
I don't see how in the world it

1293
01:20:20,060 --> 01:20:23,260
can be difficult to get ahold of
somebody from the A UP if you

1294
01:20:23,260 --> 01:20:26,380
were interested in in pursuing
that road.

1295
01:20:26,900 --> 01:20:30,580
Gotcha, Gotcha K Now I'm going
to ask about one that might be

1296
01:20:30,580 --> 01:20:35,020
kind of a little more sensitive
and if you don't want to talk

1297
01:20:35,020 --> 01:20:39,180
about I'm, I'm good with that.
But cursor Kane, you guys a

1298
01:20:39,180 --> 01:20:48,800
believer in in the cursor Kane
in that I hesitate to say okay.

1299
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:52,640
Well, let me just say this.
I'm going to say what I think my

1300
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:57,440
feelings on it just leave the a
UB out of it.

1301
01:20:57,440 --> 01:21:00,880
Specifically, these are my
beliefs based on what I've read

1302
01:21:01,080 --> 01:21:05,840
and my understanding.
All right, so I do believe in

1303
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:10,280
the curse of Kane.
So there is that issue with the

1304
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:14,240
Negro holding the priesthood
that we don't believe that they

1305
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:17,240
have rights to the priesthood at
this time.

1306
01:21:20,280 --> 01:21:23,080
We're definitely not racist,
though.

1307
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:25,720
I know people are going to
think, how is that not racist?

1308
01:21:26,480 --> 01:21:30,360
But we believe that it all comes
down to choices that they made

1309
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:35,640
in the preexistence.
So it's not like they're they

1310
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:38,040
have this curse because they're
black.

1311
01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:41,400
They have this the curse because
of choices that were made in the

1312
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:43,960
pre existence.
It's all a matter of choice and

1313
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:47,960
consequence.
We've actually had black people

1314
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:50,000
in our religion in the past,
believe it or not.

1315
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,640
People would be really surprised
to hear that we're very loving

1316
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:55,920
towards them.
There's no racism.

1317
01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:57,760
It's just the fact that we
believe that it's the

1318
01:21:57,760 --> 01:21:59,400
consequence of choices that were
made.

1319
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:02,960
That's how it comes down to it.
I I don't.

1320
01:22:03,660 --> 01:22:07,180
I mean, people don't think
negatively about black people.

1321
01:22:07,300 --> 01:22:09,740
I mean, except for maybe one or
two kooks that are in our

1322
01:22:09,740 --> 01:22:11,900
religion.
But you get that everywhere in

1323
01:22:11,900 --> 01:22:13,340
the world.
Kooks everywhere.

1324
01:22:14,300 --> 01:22:22,500
It doesn't matter which
religion, yeah, But yeah, I can

1325
01:22:22,500 --> 01:22:25,500
see from the worldly perspective
that we would be classified as

1326
01:22:25,500 --> 01:22:29,890
racist or alt, right?
But the feelings that we have

1327
01:22:29,890 --> 01:22:32,890
towards the black community just
don't exemplify that at all.

1328
01:22:33,170 --> 01:22:35,770
And we have nothing to say about
loving things.

1329
01:22:36,210 --> 01:22:37,810
That's with my experience being
in there.

1330
01:22:37,810 --> 01:22:42,210
You could be.
But actual curse wise, Yeah,

1331
01:22:42,250 --> 01:22:44,090
yeah, we do believe in that
still.

1332
01:22:44,450 --> 01:22:49,770
OK, All right, cool.
Moving on, What about temples?

1333
01:22:49,810 --> 01:22:56,030
You guys have temples, so we
have okay.

1334
01:22:56,190 --> 01:23:00,110
So we have our what we call an
endowment building where it's

1335
01:23:00,110 --> 01:23:03,950
not an official temple.
I can't remember which ordinate

1336
01:23:03,950 --> 01:23:08,750
was, but the specific ordinance
that separates or room, maybe

1337
01:23:08,830 --> 01:23:12,630
it's a room I can't recall, like
the center room, like the holy

1338
01:23:12,630 --> 01:23:17,030
of Holies.
But so it's not an official

1339
01:23:17,030 --> 01:23:19,790
temple, but we do all of
ordinance work there, like

1340
01:23:19,790 --> 01:23:22,510
baptism for the dead, marriage
ceilings and things like that.

1341
01:23:23,110 --> 01:23:27,660
That being said, I I'm I'm not
100% sure on this, but I think

1342
01:23:27,660 --> 01:23:30,580
there might be some type of
reason that we don't have a

1343
01:23:30,580 --> 01:23:33,660
temple like a legal reason
because we're Mormon and you

1344
01:23:33,660 --> 01:23:35,620
have the LDS church.
I'm not sure because we actually

1345
01:23:35,620 --> 01:23:40,660
have a temple in Mexico like an
official temple, but that's the

1346
01:23:40,660 --> 01:23:45,900
only one.
And so I'm not 100% sure on all

1347
01:23:45,900 --> 01:23:49,660
the reasons behind that or or
why that is so one in Mexico.

1348
01:23:50,550 --> 01:23:52,750
So it's more of an endowment
house that you have in the

1349
01:23:52,750 --> 01:23:54,590
states.
Is that a fair, fair way of

1350
01:23:54,590 --> 01:23:57,190
looking at it?
That's exactly, Yeah.

1351
01:23:57,750 --> 01:23:59,350
Yeah.
No.

1352
01:23:59,790 --> 01:24:03,230
Is vicarious work for the dead
performed in that endowment

1353
01:24:03,230 --> 01:24:05,550
house, or is that only for the
living?

1354
01:24:06,990 --> 01:24:09,190
We Yeah.
So we do the vicarious work for

1355
01:24:09,190 --> 01:24:13,950
the dead baptisms, the
endowments for the dead,

1356
01:24:13,950 --> 01:24:14,790
Everything.
Yeah.

1357
01:24:14,950 --> 01:24:16,190
OK.
All right.

1358
01:24:16,390 --> 01:24:18,670
Perfect.
And then that one Mexico is that

1359
01:24:18,670 --> 01:24:21,310
one still operating.
It is.

1360
01:24:21,310 --> 01:24:24,150
So we have a, like I mentioned
earlier, we actually have quite

1361
01:24:24,150 --> 01:24:26,870
a few communities, but we have a
good sized community down there

1362
01:24:26,870 --> 01:24:30,310
in Mexico.
I have not been there, but the

1363
01:24:30,310 --> 01:24:31,910
leadership goes there quite
often.

1364
01:24:31,990 --> 01:24:36,830
Obviously they have to, but I
know members there because they

1365
01:24:36,870 --> 01:24:39,670
they marry like a person from
the States, there's relations to

1366
01:24:39,670 --> 01:24:43,710
the forum and they end up moving
over to the US Amazing people.

1367
01:24:43,790 --> 01:24:47,030
Something about Mexican people
over in Mexico where they're

1368
01:24:47,030 --> 01:24:51,690
just extremely loving people.
Different personalities for

1369
01:24:51,690 --> 01:24:53,810
sure.
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely.

1370
01:24:54,730 --> 01:25:00,650
So let let me let me go here
then with with that with those

1371
01:25:00,650 --> 01:25:04,970
other communities is there like
is it like for for my LDS

1372
01:25:04,970 --> 01:25:07,570
listeners here is it would it
would there be leadership down

1373
01:25:07,570 --> 01:25:11,010
there like a state presidency
and that sort of thing and and

1374
01:25:11,010 --> 01:25:14,250
then they report to to the
leadership in Utah.

1375
01:25:14,250 --> 01:25:15,690
Is that kind of how that
functions?

1376
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:18,840
Yeah, that's exactly how it
would function.

1377
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:22,840
There's some differences.
We're talking about LDS Church

1378
01:25:22,840 --> 01:25:24,760
and how they're listening to
them listening to this.

1379
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:28,920
Some one of the big differences
are is that we don't believe the

1380
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:32,120
the Bishop is that would be the
person in charge over the area,

1381
01:25:33,420 --> 01:25:35,380
They would just be over the
temporal affairs.

1382
01:25:35,420 --> 01:25:38,780
And then we have a local high
priest council with your 3 high

1383
01:25:38,780 --> 01:25:42,540
priests that run the area, and
then the president of that local

1384
01:25:42,540 --> 01:25:46,260
high priest council is the
person that's in charge over

1385
01:25:46,260 --> 01:25:49,340
that specific area.
Gotcha.

1386
01:25:49,980 --> 01:25:51,420
Gotcha.
Okay.

1387
01:25:52,460 --> 01:25:59,020
But now and and this is getting
a little more sacred, so I

1388
01:25:59,020 --> 01:26:01,060
expect a very general answer
here.

1389
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:05,320
Are second anointing still
available within the a UB?

1390
01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:10,280
Yeah.
Actually I would say that that

1391
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:15,200
that probably wouldn't be
something that I should answer

1392
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:19,480
because I don't know if I should
answer it or not because like

1393
01:26:19,480 --> 01:26:27,160
you're saying it's definitely
one of those Sacreds and and

1394
01:26:27,480 --> 01:26:32,040
even with a vague general idea
of it, I'm honestly not sure on

1395
01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:35,400
how far would be appropriate to
go with with the we're talking

1396
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:38,320
about the specific one other
than what it is because of that

1397
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:40,120
context we can just talk about
history.

1398
01:26:41,160 --> 01:26:43,560
So yeah, I just wouldn't know
what would be appropriate to say

1399
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:47,360
or not.
I will say, I will say we

1400
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:50,840
believe in it, I'll say that.
Okay, Perfect.

1401
01:26:51,320 --> 01:26:55,120
Perfect.
So, so here's another touchy

1402
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:57,680
subject, but I think it's one
that that deserves some

1403
01:26:57,680 --> 01:27:00,980
attention.
What about placement marriage?

1404
01:27:01,100 --> 01:27:04,500
Is that something that's
practiced in the a UB So when

1405
01:27:04,500 --> 01:27:06,980
you say placement, you're
talking about like arranged?

1406
01:27:07,500 --> 01:27:13,740
Yes.
So it has it has happened in the

1407
01:27:13,740 --> 01:27:19,700
past, but not by force.
And it I have not heard of it

1408
01:27:19,700 --> 01:27:21,820
happening in my day and age at
all.

1409
01:27:22,820 --> 01:27:27,500
What I understand my
grandfather, Ruin Allred, was

1410
01:27:27,540 --> 01:27:31,820
just had in our belief a lot of
revelation from the Heavenly

1411
01:27:31,820 --> 01:27:36,100
Father and he would literally
just do get an inspiration and

1412
01:27:36,100 --> 01:27:40,660
and say you know this couple
like you guys, I've had a

1413
01:27:40,660 --> 01:27:41,860
revelation.
You guys supposed to be

1414
01:27:41,860 --> 01:27:46,340
together.
So my grandfather had that a

1415
01:27:46,340 --> 01:27:48,940
couple times.
I'm told that it was not common

1416
01:27:48,940 --> 01:27:53,590
by any means, but now that just
does not happen.

1417
01:27:53,590 --> 01:27:55,030
I've never heard of that
happened.

1418
01:27:55,430 --> 01:27:58,350
I've definitely heard of some
like recommendations like

1419
01:27:58,390 --> 01:28:01,110
they'll say, you know, this lady
over here, her husband died.

1420
01:28:01,110 --> 01:28:03,470
She's a widow.
She needs somebody to care for

1421
01:28:03,470 --> 01:28:06,390
her, you know, do you have room
in your family type of a

1422
01:28:06,390 --> 01:28:07,910
situation?
You're talking it out and

1423
01:28:07,910 --> 01:28:12,070
working it out.
But as far as the actual

1424
01:28:12,070 --> 01:28:14,790
arranged, like Heavenly Father
says, you're supposed to be

1425
01:28:14,790 --> 01:28:16,350
together.
So you have to be together.

1426
01:28:16,430 --> 01:28:21,580
That's never happened.
And may you be, Yeah, I I

1427
01:28:21,580 --> 01:28:26,300
believe it happened under my
great grandfather John Wybarlow

1428
01:28:26,420 --> 01:28:30,140
before the FLDSAUV split.
And I think that's kind of one

1429
01:28:30,140 --> 01:28:32,860
of those things that was causing
some tension because under John

1430
01:28:32,860 --> 01:28:35,860
Wybarlow it was arranged
marriages and they that they

1431
01:28:35,860 --> 01:28:39,940
wouldn't even tell tell the dad
it was just like it's just what

1432
01:28:39,940 --> 01:28:43,140
it was.
So that caused a lot of tension,

1433
01:28:43,140 --> 01:28:47,570
obviously.
So so can I ask how how most of

1434
01:28:47,690 --> 01:28:51,530
of those marriages then what
what's dating in courtship like

1435
01:28:51,570 --> 01:28:59,290
then in in the a UB It's very
very case specific pretty much I

1436
01:28:59,290 --> 01:29:02,210
think every every one of our
leaders says at one point or

1437
01:29:02,210 --> 01:29:07,010
another said said there's no one
right way to enter a polygamist

1438
01:29:07,010 --> 01:29:09,490
relationship.
Everybody does it differently.

1439
01:29:09,490 --> 01:29:13,010
There's different circumstances
involved, but I would say for

1440
01:29:13,010 --> 01:29:18,370
the first wife, it's very, very
run of the bill.

1441
01:29:18,370 --> 01:29:20,930
How you would expect, you know,
you're, you're dating, you're

1442
01:29:20,930 --> 01:29:25,290
going out.
You know, I feel like we

1443
01:29:25,290 --> 01:29:29,930
probably have much different
standards compared to the world.

1444
01:29:29,930 --> 01:29:33,010
There will be a lot more in line
with LDS Church, you know, with

1445
01:29:33,090 --> 01:29:38,530
conduct and things like that.
But then when it comes to oh, I

1446
01:29:38,530 --> 01:29:41,810
should say we are very
traditional and we believe

1447
01:29:41,810 --> 01:29:44,330
asking the father for the lady's
hand in marriage.

1448
01:29:44,530 --> 01:29:46,490
So we still do that even with
the first wife.

1449
01:29:46,650 --> 01:29:48,690
It's considered quite
disrespectful if you don't do

1450
01:29:48,690 --> 01:29:55,050
that.
But yeah my fatherinlaw, when I

1451
01:29:55,050 --> 01:30:00,290
came in, when I came and asked
him he was he was very ecstatic

1452
01:30:00,290 --> 01:30:02,890
and it was just it's just it's
just a sign of respect help

1453
01:30:02,890 --> 01:30:04,370
build our relationship between
us.

1454
01:30:05,010 --> 01:30:06,650
And I knew he was going to say
yes anyway.

1455
01:30:06,650 --> 01:30:12,170
So I didn't care, but with the
like it after that when it comes

1456
01:30:12,170 --> 01:30:16,250
to the polygamous marriages,
there's a lot more protocol that

1457
01:30:16,250 --> 01:30:18,850
has to be involved.
It's a lot more stressful

1458
01:30:19,050 --> 01:30:23,490
obviously and because you're a
married man you know that's

1459
01:30:23,490 --> 01:30:25,810
dating another woman.
So conduct and things like that

1460
01:30:25,810 --> 01:30:30,530
is a lot different.
And with those situations, the

1461
01:30:31,290 --> 01:30:36,370
it's recommended that you talk
to your dad and get his advice

1462
01:30:36,610 --> 01:30:40,420
and even approval, though it
seems like that's more of a

1463
01:30:40,420 --> 01:30:43,140
recommended thing.
I've never heard anybody say

1464
01:30:43,140 --> 01:30:49,700
that you need to do that.
But you do need to talk to the

1465
01:30:49,860 --> 01:30:53,940
father, the lady's father.
And you also need to speak with

1466
01:30:54,900 --> 01:30:58,220
with our, our apostleship people
that are in charge of our

1467
01:30:58,220 --> 01:31:00,060
religion.
You need to speak with somebody

1468
01:31:00,060 --> 01:31:02,780
on that council specifically and
hold a meeting with them.

1469
01:31:03,390 --> 01:31:04,950
It's very intimidating and
scary.

1470
01:31:04,950 --> 01:31:11,630
At least it was from me.
So, but I'll bet, yeah.

1471
01:31:12,790 --> 01:31:18,350
So as as once.
So I'm I'm trying to make sense

1472
01:31:18,350 --> 01:31:21,470
of this.
So you you you get the desire

1473
01:31:21,470 --> 01:31:27,750
that you want to to enter the
principal and then at that point

1474
01:31:27,750 --> 01:31:30,910
do you?
Did you find out if this this

1475
01:31:31,150 --> 01:31:35,270
lady would be amicable to it?
Or do you talk to her first?

1476
01:31:35,270 --> 01:31:37,990
Or do you go directly to the
Lady's father and the Priesthood

1477
01:31:37,990 --> 01:31:39,230
council?
How does this work?

1478
01:31:39,390 --> 01:31:42,350
Yeah, definitely not A1 size
fits all.

1479
01:31:42,830 --> 01:31:45,430
I I've heard of all three of
those different ways.

1480
01:31:48,630 --> 01:31:52,990
It feels like for the most part
and in my case also is you just

1481
01:31:52,990 --> 01:31:56,910
meet at church and somebody
strikes your interest and one

1482
01:31:56,910 --> 01:32:02,340
thing leads to another.
So with my second wife I

1483
01:32:02,340 --> 01:32:09,220
actually what I actually felt
interested years before I even

1484
01:32:09,620 --> 01:32:14,460
told my first wife and I chose
to do that based upon polygamy

1485
01:32:15,300 --> 01:32:17,700
practicality.
Things that my dad taught me

1486
01:32:17,780 --> 01:32:23,540
about polygamy, like you don't
go looking for other wives so

1487
01:32:23,620 --> 01:32:30,060
but down the road I I have a
degree in singing and I did a

1488
01:32:30,060 --> 01:32:33,100
singing class and I was going to
have people in my community.

1489
01:32:33,100 --> 01:32:35,980
I was going to know just do a
little seminar and how to sing.

1490
01:32:36,460 --> 01:32:39,860
And she joined it.
And after one thing led to

1491
01:32:39,860 --> 01:32:42,220
another I ended up finding out
she joined it just so she could

1492
01:32:42,220 --> 01:32:47,180
get a chance to somehow
instigate that that starting

1493
01:32:47,180 --> 01:32:49,020
point because she was interested
also.

1494
01:32:49,340 --> 01:32:53,450
And it's really awkward and hard
to know, like because it's not

1495
01:32:53,450 --> 01:32:54,890
traditional, like you're
interested in someone.

1496
01:32:54,890 --> 01:32:56,730
You just go up and say I'm
interested in you because you

1497
01:32:56,730 --> 01:32:59,290
have another wife there and it
could be disrespectful or

1498
01:32:59,290 --> 01:33:01,370
offensive.
It's really hard to know exactly

1499
01:33:01,370 --> 01:33:03,730
how to broach it.
That's what she did.

1500
01:33:05,090 --> 01:33:09,290
She ended up telling my wife
that she was interested in us.

1501
01:33:09,650 --> 01:33:13,170
And then my wife was, oh, well,
we're interested in you because

1502
01:33:13,170 --> 01:33:14,810
I had told my wife at this
point.

1503
01:33:15,090 --> 01:33:23,370
And and and so, Oh yeah, one
thing led to another after that.

1504
01:33:23,810 --> 01:33:27,210
That was a pretty hard process.
Most pro marriages are hard

1505
01:33:27,210 --> 01:33:31,810
process to go through her.
Her dad really didn't think much

1506
01:33:31,810 --> 01:33:35,770
of me at the time, which I don't
blame him because I just moved

1507
01:33:35,770 --> 01:33:38,770
to the area.
I lived in a trailer and was

1508
01:33:38,770 --> 01:33:42,170
kind of a bum at the time and
but I had to get myself together

1509
01:33:42,170 --> 01:33:44,450
more.
So yeah.

1510
01:33:45,290 --> 01:33:49,890
And and so is this process like
a year long process to to be

1511
01:33:49,890 --> 01:33:54,930
able to to enter into the
principal or is it, is it just

1512
01:33:54,930 --> 01:34:01,090
really case by case?
It is very case by case if if

1513
01:34:01,090 --> 01:34:04,770
there is any tension or people
that are disagreeing, they'll

1514
01:34:04,770 --> 01:34:06,810
ask you to wait, it's usually a
year.

1515
01:34:07,090 --> 01:34:11,290
That's what it was for me.
And just to kind of see what

1516
01:34:11,290 --> 01:34:15,470
happens and let things kind of
evolve rather than just

1517
01:34:15,470 --> 01:34:17,550
proceeding and breaking a part
of family.

1518
01:34:19,550 --> 01:34:23,390
So yeah, because in my case,
because my second fatherinlaw

1519
01:34:23,790 --> 01:34:27,670
was not gung ho about it, he
asked us to wait a year.

1520
01:34:29,710 --> 01:34:32,310
I actually got really lucky
though, because I didn't end up

1521
01:34:32,310 --> 01:34:34,070
waiting here.
I ended up waiting happy year

1522
01:34:34,710 --> 01:34:40,220
because something occurred that
offended my fatherinlaw.

1523
01:34:40,700 --> 01:34:45,780
The people were saying about me
and and my father, my second

1524
01:34:45,780 --> 01:34:48,540
fatherinlaw, he's just kind of
weird, but for some reason that

1525
01:34:48,540 --> 01:34:50,740
offense just made him feel bad
and he's like, you can marry

1526
01:34:50,740 --> 01:34:52,060
her, I'm not going to do this
anymore.

1527
01:34:52,540 --> 01:34:57,180
So, so we married and I can
honestly say we have the good

1528
01:34:57,180 --> 01:35:00,380
feelings towards each other now.
It's gotten not the same, but it

1529
01:35:00,380 --> 01:35:02,700
was when we first started.
That's awesome.

1530
01:35:03,340 --> 01:35:05,020
That's that's absolutely
awesome.

1531
01:35:06,290 --> 01:35:11,370
So it it sounds like for the
most part, until things get kind

1532
01:35:11,370 --> 01:35:14,170
of serious, the leadership
doesn't play a huge role in

1533
01:35:14,170 --> 01:35:17,170
saying yes or no on those sorts
of things.

1534
01:35:17,170 --> 01:35:20,330
Is that a fair assessment?
Definitely not with the first

1535
01:35:20,330 --> 01:35:23,650
wife.
With the pro marriage wives, you

1536
01:35:23,650 --> 01:35:25,290
do need to get there.
Yes, on it.

1537
01:35:25,930 --> 01:35:30,650
Because ultimately the
priesthood is answerable

1538
01:35:30,770 --> 01:35:35,140
spiritually for that polygamous
families for actually doing that

1539
01:35:35,140 --> 01:35:37,980
ceiling.
There's some responsibility that

1540
01:35:37,980 --> 01:35:40,020
they take on in the spiritual
sense.

1541
01:35:40,340 --> 01:35:44,140
So if they want to have that
confidence that the husband has

1542
01:35:44,140 --> 01:35:50,220
it together enough to actually
operate that family, yeah, so.

1543
01:35:50,700 --> 01:35:54,740
Now are are there, are there,
you know, litmus test as far as

1544
01:35:54,740 --> 01:35:58,820
financial viability as well?
Or is it just a spiritual thing

1545
01:35:58,820 --> 01:36:00,580
or is it a combination of the
two?

1546
01:36:02,150 --> 01:36:06,590
The spiritual aspect is
definitely going to be 99% of

1547
01:36:06,590 --> 01:36:08,630
it.
Just throwing a number out there

1548
01:36:08,630 --> 01:36:11,950
obviously.
Are you really, do you really

1549
01:36:11,950 --> 01:36:14,150
have a testimony?
Are you in this for the right

1550
01:36:14,150 --> 01:36:17,030
reasons?
Are you active?

1551
01:36:17,670 --> 01:36:21,670
One of the biggest things that
any father will check a man

1552
01:36:21,670 --> 01:36:23,550
that's asking about their
daughter is do they pay their

1553
01:36:23,550 --> 01:36:25,190
tightening?
Because that's one of those

1554
01:36:25,190 --> 01:36:27,470
things like where your money is,
your heart is.

1555
01:36:28,590 --> 01:36:30,430
So that's that's something
that's always checked.

1556
01:36:31,590 --> 01:36:36,110
But as far as like the things in
the temporal world from the

1557
01:36:36,110 --> 01:36:38,590
spiritual aspect, like with the
leadership, they're not going to

1558
01:36:38,590 --> 01:36:42,230
say yes or no based on that.
But there definitely are a lot

1559
01:36:42,230 --> 01:36:45,350
of cases where the lady's father
will be really hesitant because

1560
01:36:45,350 --> 01:36:47,150
they don't want their daughter
to grow up in squalor.

1561
01:36:49,390 --> 01:36:52,470
And that was actually kind of my
case, because I lived in a

1562
01:36:52,590 --> 01:36:55,270
trailer when I first moved to
the community here, that he had

1563
01:36:55,270 --> 01:36:58,540
a lot of concerns about that.
Gotcha.

1564
01:36:59,340 --> 01:37:00,700
Yeah.
But if you're doing good for

1565
01:37:00,700 --> 01:37:03,780
yourself financially, you'll
definitely make the the girl's

1566
01:37:03,820 --> 01:37:05,900
father feel a lot better.
Gotcha.

1567
01:37:05,980 --> 01:37:06,940
Gotcha, 10.
Four.

1568
01:37:07,380 --> 01:37:12,540
Yeah, I I could see that look as
a as a dad of girls who who

1569
01:37:12,540 --> 01:37:16,780
aren't polygamous, who's got a
couple married kids, that was a

1570
01:37:17,220 --> 01:37:18,900
concern for me, right?
I mean.

1571
01:37:19,580 --> 01:37:21,500
You can't.
You can't do the job, kiddo.

1572
01:37:21,500 --> 01:37:23,940
I don't know what what I'm going
to tell you or you know what I

1573
01:37:24,020 --> 01:37:25,540
have.
I got daughter.

1574
01:37:25,860 --> 01:37:28,060
Daughter too.
I I can feel that for sure.

1575
01:37:28,780 --> 01:37:31,020
I haven't reached that point
yet, but I see it.

1576
01:37:31,540 --> 01:37:35,900
Oh, you wait, it's fun.
That's that's an entirely new

1577
01:37:35,900 --> 01:37:37,900
experience that you'll get to
get to have.

1578
01:37:38,460 --> 01:37:42,740
So other than than like plural
marriage and God, those big

1579
01:37:42,740 --> 01:37:46,040
things that we hit.
What else do you think really

1580
01:37:46,040 --> 01:37:48,560
sets you apart from like the LDS
Church?

1581
01:37:48,560 --> 01:37:50,360
You know what?
What are some teachings or some

1582
01:37:50,360 --> 01:37:55,440
practices or cultural things
that are unique to to the a UB?

1583
01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:00,440
Well, the first thing that
automatically just jumps to my

1584
01:38:00,440 --> 01:38:04,200
mind is more of the visibility
thing and that and that is we do

1585
01:38:04,200 --> 01:38:08,600
wear the traditional old school
garment that we believe was

1586
01:38:08,600 --> 01:38:12,040
first created.
So you'll never see us with

1587
01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:16,810
short sleeve shirts, our always
long pants.

1588
01:38:17,050 --> 01:38:19,250
People always ask how can you
stand that it's 100 degrees

1589
01:38:19,250 --> 01:38:26,090
outside but you get used to it.
Well I think with the and then

1590
01:38:26,090 --> 01:38:29,970
with dances we we are still
really old school with our

1591
01:38:29,970 --> 01:38:32,770
dances.
We're still doing the waltz, the

1592
01:38:32,770 --> 01:38:39,210
Virginia rail, and and just very
traditional, no modern music at

1593
01:38:39,210 --> 01:38:41,950
all.
Occasionally somebody's tried to

1594
01:38:41,950 --> 01:38:45,270
put on modern music and then
somebody goes over and let's

1595
01:38:45,270 --> 01:38:49,990
keep it traditional.
So yeah, we're very old school

1596
01:38:49,990 --> 01:38:53,710
with our recreation and cultural
things like that.

1597
01:38:54,590 --> 01:38:57,710
Good deal.
But I would say though with

1598
01:38:57,710 --> 01:39:02,710
things like movies and maybe
music on a personal basis rather

1599
01:39:02,710 --> 01:39:05,590
than a community activity, you
do get a lot of variability.

1600
01:39:05,590 --> 01:39:09,520
People have different opinions.
I actually have a degree in

1601
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:14,760
music and did a massive report
on music and ethics and

1602
01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:16,400
moralities.
I'm kind of interested in that

1603
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:18,480
subject.
That's a different subject on

1604
01:39:18,480 --> 01:39:23,440
that whole.
Let's see.

1605
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:25,240
I think those are the only
things that are coming to my

1606
01:39:25,240 --> 01:39:30,280
head right at the right at the
front as far as cultural

1607
01:39:30,280 --> 01:39:33,080
differences go, because because
I feel like they you be

1608
01:39:33,160 --> 01:39:38,110
especially tends to blend in
really well with the way most of

1609
01:39:38,110 --> 01:39:41,430
society is.
I don't think you'd recognize a

1610
01:39:41,430 --> 01:39:43,310
lot of things unless you came to
one of our dances.

1611
01:39:43,950 --> 01:39:46,270
That would be might be a
different experience.

1612
01:39:48,670 --> 01:39:50,390
Well, and and more power to you
guys.

1613
01:39:50,390 --> 01:39:53,710
I I don't think I could dance.
I think I might.

1614
01:39:53,710 --> 01:39:55,950
My 2 left feet would get in my
way.

1615
01:39:56,470 --> 01:39:57,990
Yeah.
I don't really go either.

1616
01:39:57,990 --> 01:40:00,550
I did when I was younger because
I wanted to be married.

1617
01:40:00,980 --> 01:40:02,660
But as soon as they got married,
they're like done.

1618
01:40:02,700 --> 01:40:05,660
Don't have to go anymore.
So I'm with you.

1619
01:40:06,180 --> 01:40:09,660
Now early on we talked about you
guys said, you said that you

1620
01:40:09,660 --> 01:40:12,620
guys had kind of your own
educational system as well.

1621
01:40:13,260 --> 01:40:19,980
Yeah, so in Hinesdale where I
grew up, we had a system one

1622
01:40:19,980 --> 01:40:22,900
through six.
I think they actually have a

1623
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:25,440
high school system there now.
I just saw people are right.

1624
01:40:25,440 --> 01:40:28,720
I'm talking about like a fully
legally accredited school system

1625
01:40:28,720 --> 01:40:31,800
here that I think Pinedale
actually has a high school now.

1626
01:40:33,120 --> 01:40:38,520
But I haven't been there in
years for our for Utah here we

1627
01:40:38,520 --> 01:40:43,840
have two private schools one at
Bluffdale and then one in Rocky

1628
01:40:43,840 --> 01:40:45,400
Ridge.
Most people are.

1629
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:47,720
And then fundamentals and
probably familiar with Rocky

1630
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,990
Ridge out by Santaquin.
We I don't have one here in

1631
01:40:51,990 --> 01:40:55,430
Mount Pleasant yet, though
unfortunately people are talking

1632
01:40:55,430 --> 01:40:57,790
about it.
There's kind of like a a base

1633
01:40:57,790 --> 01:41:00,750
startup thing going with it, but
it's not legal yet.

1634
01:41:02,630 --> 01:41:06,470
So yeah, we do like to have that
just so people because what

1635
01:41:06,470 --> 01:41:10,390
tends to happen in more cult
societies is they grow up either

1636
01:41:10,390 --> 01:41:14,070
without an education or not a
legal education and then they

1637
01:41:14,070 --> 01:41:18,350
don't have a diploma.
So we try and encounter that

1638
01:41:19,060 --> 01:41:23,300
have so and actually have a
school system and as far as the

1639
01:41:23,900 --> 01:41:28,500
experience that it was, I was I
was only in it for a couple

1640
01:41:28,500 --> 01:41:31,420
years preschool through second
grade.

1641
01:41:31,780 --> 01:41:36,540
My family for one reason or
another was heavily made fun of

1642
01:41:37,340 --> 01:41:38,900
and we really struggled with
bullying.

1643
01:41:38,900 --> 01:41:41,220
So we were moved out in the
public school system really

1644
01:41:41,220 --> 01:41:48,570
fast, but from what I've seen
now as an older person, they're

1645
01:41:48,570 --> 01:41:52,330
very good school systems and
they're fully.

1646
01:41:52,330 --> 01:41:57,170
Accredited by the state, I fully
accredited.

1647
01:41:57,170 --> 01:42:03,010
Yeah, I probably wish I could
have my son in one of the

1648
01:42:03,010 --> 01:42:05,410
private schools because
apparently they're very

1649
01:42:05,410 --> 01:42:06,930
rigorous.
Nothing could be awesome to be

1650
01:42:06,930 --> 01:42:11,210
able to go through that type of
a process, but it's too far from

1651
01:42:11,210 --> 01:42:13,570
where I live so.
Sure.

1652
01:42:14,660 --> 01:42:16,380
And then what about higher
education?

1653
01:42:16,380 --> 01:42:18,220
Did?
Are you guys encouraged to go to

1654
01:42:18,220 --> 01:42:23,580
college, that sort of thing?
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't say

1655
01:42:23,620 --> 01:42:26,220
it's not like a force thing by
any means.

1656
01:42:26,220 --> 01:42:29,180
It's probably like most people
out in the world like this to be

1657
01:42:29,180 --> 01:42:31,180
a good idea if you want to do
such and such a job.

1658
01:42:32,380 --> 01:42:34,940
I don't see any any differences
with that whatsoever.

1659
01:42:34,940 --> 01:42:39,020
I did get my degree in music and
then I went back to school to be

1660
01:42:39,020 --> 01:42:41,340
a paramedic and now I'm
currently trying to be a

1661
01:42:41,340 --> 01:42:44,120
Physicianist Physician
Assistant.

1662
01:42:44,840 --> 01:42:46,560
Now it's called the Physician
associate.

1663
01:42:47,480 --> 01:42:49,400
Nice.
So I can specialize number of

1664
01:42:49,400 --> 01:42:54,520
medicine.
I just so yeah, a lot of people

1665
01:42:54,520 --> 01:42:56,080
in my faith have college
degrees.

1666
01:42:57,120 --> 01:43:00,520
Very cool.
And that I would say overall

1667
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:04,000
it's more.
Yeah, no, I think that's cool

1668
01:43:04,240 --> 01:43:08,640
and look.
It's one thing that I feel like

1669
01:43:08,800 --> 01:43:12,720
Mormonism in general has lost
their I think there's there's a

1670
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:18,880
few outliers, but the sense of
building not just a church but

1671
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:21,440
but a society and a culture,
right?

1672
01:43:21,800 --> 01:43:25,560
And I feel like that something
that Joseph was was definitely

1673
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:29,320
angling towards in his his
original mission, right?

1674
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:34,320
And I remember I was living in
Maryland at the time and.

1675
01:43:34,710 --> 01:43:39,950
I was taking a few classes back
there in Jacksonian America and

1676
01:43:40,470 --> 01:43:44,150
this college professor had said,
OK real quick and and you can't

1677
01:43:44,150 --> 01:43:46,830
really talk about Jacksonian
America without talking about

1678
01:43:46,830 --> 01:43:51,830
the Mormons, right?
It's just and and he he said he

1679
01:43:51,830 --> 01:43:54,110
said a couple things in there
that were very interesting.

1680
01:43:54,110 --> 01:43:57,470
But one was he just kind of did
this pop quiz as he was

1681
01:43:57,470 --> 01:44:01,230
introducing Mormonism into the
class, and I was the only Mormon

1682
01:44:01,230 --> 01:44:04,030
in there.
It it's not like it is out West

1683
01:44:04,030 --> 01:44:06,510
where you can't turn around
without bumping into a Mormon.

1684
01:44:06,950 --> 01:44:09,790
It it gets pretty sparse once
you're east of the Mississippi.

1685
01:44:10,430 --> 01:44:15,830
But I remember I was, I was in
this class and he said, okay,

1686
01:44:15,950 --> 01:44:19,870
how many, how many chapels did
Joseph Smith build in his

1687
01:44:19,870 --> 01:44:24,470
lifetime meeting houses and
hands up, you know, 100?

1688
01:44:24,470 --> 01:44:27,680
No, that's not it.
You know and it whittled down

1689
01:44:27,680 --> 01:44:30,600
and finally the, the, the, the
professor just said zero.

1690
01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:33,360
He built 0 chapels.
He built temples and

1691
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:37,880
communities.
And so being able to have those

1692
01:44:37,880 --> 01:44:40,560
communities, you have to have
people to staff them so to

1693
01:44:40,560 --> 01:44:42,400
speak, right.
You need medical professionals,

1694
01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:45,640
you need engineering, you need
you need all those things to to

1695
01:44:45,720 --> 01:44:49,600
to make a functioning society.
So the the fact you guys are

1696
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:52,080
still involved in that I think
is is is great.

1697
01:44:52,080 --> 01:44:54,660
I think that that's.
That's definitely something

1698
01:44:54,660 --> 01:44:56,940
that's admirable that that I
think is Mormons.

1699
01:44:56,940 --> 01:45:00,420
We we all need to start looking
at again and getting back to

1700
01:45:00,420 --> 01:45:04,260
that idea of building community,
not just not just church

1701
01:45:04,260 --> 01:45:06,020
buildings.
Well, thank you.

1702
01:45:06,140 --> 01:45:07,940
Yeah.
Yeah, I appreciate that.

1703
01:45:07,980 --> 01:45:09,700
The same about us.
It's very nice.

1704
01:45:10,620 --> 01:45:13,900
So that there is an emphasis on
trying to build those

1705
01:45:13,900 --> 01:45:17,780
communities as far as exactly
with what you're talking about

1706
01:45:19,180 --> 01:45:24,720
to to make sure, because we do
try like with United Order to

1707
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:26,840
have like a specific local
economy.

1708
01:45:28,800 --> 01:45:31,800
So there's like an emphasis to
make sure that we've got a

1709
01:45:31,800 --> 01:45:34,080
doctor in the community, which
we do.

1710
01:45:34,760 --> 01:45:38,080
There's, you know, people with
finance and people with

1711
01:45:38,080 --> 01:45:41,000
different businesses or
everybody's needs can be met.

1712
01:45:41,240 --> 01:45:44,560
And yeah, just going along with
what you're saying, everybody

1713
01:45:44,560 --> 01:45:47,240
working together to meet
everybody's needs to build a

1714
01:45:47,240 --> 01:45:52,830
good local community, good deal.
What about social media?

1715
01:45:52,830 --> 01:45:56,150
Do you guys have like a website
or a social media presence?

1716
01:45:57,870 --> 01:46:01,350
Not a public one.
We have ones that are private.

1717
01:46:01,350 --> 01:46:03,750
They're just for us as far as
communication and things like

1718
01:46:03,790 --> 01:46:08,230
that go, but they're definitely.
There is absolutely 0 media

1719
01:46:08,230 --> 01:46:11,510
presence.
Unless I'm just really oblivious

1720
01:46:11,510 --> 01:46:14,230
and I'm unaware, I've never
heard of anything like that.

1721
01:46:15,190 --> 01:46:20,490
I would say for the for the most
part, social media is kind of

1722
01:46:20,490 --> 01:46:24,850
one of those independent views.
Everybody has a different take

1723
01:46:24,850 --> 01:46:27,730
on it.
But as far as leadership goes

1724
01:46:27,770 --> 01:46:31,690
and a UB as a whole, I don't
feel like we've ever really

1725
01:46:31,690 --> 01:46:33,450
taken a role in social media at
all.

1726
01:46:34,130 --> 01:46:35,330
Okay.
All right, cool.

1727
01:46:36,530 --> 01:46:39,530
Is there, is there anything else
that you feel like is really

1728
01:46:39,530 --> 01:46:43,010
unique to the a UB that that we
haven't gone over that that you

1729
01:46:43,010 --> 01:46:48,850
want to talk about?
Let me think about this for one

1730
01:46:48,850 --> 01:46:51,050
SEC actually.
Can we take a break?

1731
01:46:51,530 --> 01:46:53,690
Yeah.
And then all right, that'll give

1732
01:46:53,690 --> 01:46:55,050
me a chance to think about it
for a minute.

1733
01:46:55,410 --> 01:46:56,890
And I've got to go to the
bathroom, so.

1734
01:46:56,970 --> 01:46:58,050
No problem.
Yep.

1735
01:46:58,050 --> 01:46:59,490
We can.
We can definitely pause this.

1736
01:46:59,490 --> 01:47:03,650
All right.
Cool Okay.

1737
01:47:03,650 --> 01:47:06,010
So we're back.
So one last question I have for

1738
01:47:06,010 --> 01:47:11,200
you, Josh is what about?
The Word of Wisdom is that

1739
01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:14,560
something that's very similar to
the LDS church or to other

1740
01:47:14,560 --> 01:47:17,080
fundamentalist groups?
How do you guys practice that?

1741
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:24,560
So with the Word of Wisdom, we
really take the first part of

1742
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:30,480
that, not by way of commandment.
So no one's ever held back by in

1743
01:47:30,480 --> 01:47:33,000
any means.
I personally love coffee.

1744
01:47:33,080 --> 01:47:34,440
I drink coffee on this every
day.

1745
01:47:34,840 --> 01:47:41,480
Yeah, and I kind of think that's
a very fundamentalist thing,

1746
01:47:41,480 --> 01:47:43,880
especially because it is
proceeded with that not by way

1747
01:47:43,880 --> 01:47:47,760
of commandment.
That being said, it is taught,

1748
01:47:47,760 --> 01:47:50,480
it's believed in and there is an
emphasis on it.

1749
01:47:50,520 --> 01:47:52,400
I don't know about all
fundamentalist groups, but in

1750
01:47:52,400 --> 01:47:58,000
the A UV there is.
But it's more like the spirit of

1751
01:47:58,000 --> 01:47:59,920
the Word of Wisdom is to be
healthy.

1752
01:48:00,960 --> 01:48:06,490
So if you add one person that
drink coffee but exercised, ate

1753
01:48:06,530 --> 01:48:11,770
good, all those things, in our
faith, he would be someone that

1754
01:48:11,770 --> 01:48:14,930
was really living the Word of
Wisdom as opposed to the other

1755
01:48:14,930 --> 01:48:19,250
person that drank Pop on the
couch and was just being a bum

1756
01:48:19,250 --> 01:48:21,010
watching TV, you know, all day
long.

1757
01:48:21,680 --> 01:48:24,080
Yeah, even if he was not
drinking coffee, not drinking

1758
01:48:24,080 --> 01:48:27,960
tea and obeying the verbatim
part of the Word of Wisdom.

1759
01:48:29,400 --> 01:48:32,280
So just it's like it's the
spirit of the law.

1760
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:35,840
A lot more goes in with that.
It is a question that's asked in

1761
01:48:35,840 --> 01:48:38,080
our interviewing process like it
recommends.

1762
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:47,010
But it's it's it's extremely to
the it's essentially asked like

1763
01:48:47,010 --> 01:48:50,130
this, do you feel like you're
living the Word of Wisdom and

1764
01:48:50,130 --> 01:48:52,690
the way that you understand it?
Yeah.

1765
01:48:53,770 --> 01:48:58,570
And and I could really, I can, I
can really respect that because

1766
01:49:00,130 --> 01:49:03,010
it it's one of those things that
made me laugh when I first moved

1767
01:49:03,010 --> 01:49:07,130
to Utah, right.
And not just when when I became

1768
01:49:07,170 --> 01:49:10,970
a fundamentalist, but when, when
when I moved to Utah.

1769
01:49:10,970 --> 01:49:13,100
Is that.
There was this talk about you

1770
01:49:13,100 --> 01:49:15,140
know the Word of Wisdom and that
sort of thing.

1771
01:49:15,540 --> 01:49:23,460
And but yet it was it was like
they looked for loopholes.

1772
01:49:23,460 --> 01:49:25,500
Right.
So it was like okay don't drink

1773
01:49:25,500 --> 01:49:30,460
coffee but I'll have a gallon of
the most sugary Mountain Dew

1774
01:49:30,460 --> 01:49:35,700
soda you can imagine.
And and and as I read the Word

1775
01:49:35,700 --> 01:49:38,980
of Wisdom, and and I tend to be
both in my interpretation of

1776
01:49:38,980 --> 01:49:43,530
Scripture and.
And the US Constitution kind of

1777
01:49:43,530 --> 01:49:46,650
a literalist, right?
I, I, I think the word are

1778
01:49:46,650 --> 01:49:48,370
there.
So when it says by way of

1779
01:49:48,370 --> 01:49:50,850
greeting, not commandment, I'm
like okay.

1780
01:49:50,850 --> 01:49:52,610
So how do you skirt that?
Right.

1781
01:49:53,570 --> 01:49:56,770
And so yeah, just the overall
picture of health is, is what

1782
01:49:56,770 --> 01:49:59,810
I'm worried about, right.
I'm a guy that likes to go to

1783
01:49:59,810 --> 01:50:01,410
the gym.
I feel like that's super

1784
01:50:01,410 --> 01:50:03,610
important, right?
Stay healthy, stay.

1785
01:50:03,970 --> 01:50:08,350
Stay on top of your game and.
And I I think there's a spirit

1786
01:50:08,350 --> 01:50:11,350
to the law, definitely, as well
as the letter of the law.

1787
01:50:11,790 --> 01:50:14,470
And I think in something like
that, it's one of those things

1788
01:50:14,470 --> 01:50:16,990
that has to be looked at and
accounted for.

1789
01:50:19,030 --> 01:50:23,230
Yeah, that's one of those things
that can be really dangerous,

1790
01:50:24,750 --> 01:50:27,710
our group feels can be dangerous
with getting strict on.

1791
01:50:27,710 --> 01:50:30,270
We feel like the LDS church is
too strict on it.

1792
01:50:30,670 --> 01:50:32,510
But things like that always make
me laugh because we're a

1793
01:50:32,510 --> 01:50:34,470
fundamentalist cult religion.
It's usually the other way

1794
01:50:34,470 --> 01:50:39,940
around, but yeah, but that one
especially, it's just so much

1795
01:50:39,940 --> 01:50:42,700
more a spirit of the law type of
commandment.

1796
01:50:42,980 --> 01:50:47,060
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
It always made me laugh when

1797
01:50:47,060 --> 01:50:51,300
when I saw someone who who
couldn't walk 8 feet without

1798
01:50:51,460 --> 01:50:55,660
passing out, but they would tell
you they practice the Word of

1799
01:50:55,660 --> 01:50:58,220
Wisdom.
I'm like, I felt like the the

1800
01:50:58,220 --> 01:51:01,020
guy out of the Princess.
And I don't think this word

1801
01:51:01,020 --> 01:51:02,980
means what you think it means,
right?

1802
01:51:03,530 --> 01:51:05,890
I have my mom.
I I think there's there's more

1803
01:51:05,890 --> 01:51:08,290
to it.
Anyway.

1804
01:51:08,290 --> 01:51:10,090
Yeah, dude, that does it for my
question.

1805
01:51:10,250 --> 01:51:12,570
I I I really appreciate being
here.

1806
01:51:12,570 --> 01:51:14,770
Nothing else you wanted to add
or anything, Josh.

1807
01:51:17,090 --> 01:51:18,970
I can't think of anything at the
top of my head.

1808
01:51:19,370 --> 01:51:22,850
It was fun talking about it.
So I've actually done something

1809
01:51:22,850 --> 01:51:26,130
like this a couple times at
college classes as well for

1810
01:51:26,130 --> 01:51:29,050
alternative religions.
So, but it's been a while for me

1811
01:51:29,050 --> 01:51:30,510
doing it.
Awesome.

1812
01:51:30,510 --> 01:51:32,790
I appreciate it.
Awesome well I appreciate you

1813
01:51:32,790 --> 01:51:37,950
having and I tell everybody this
and I I mean it sincerely and

1814
01:51:37,950 --> 01:51:41,230
and the same goes for you.
If you ever you know want to

1815
01:51:41,230 --> 01:51:44,710
come back on you have a standing
invitation all you need to do is

1816
01:51:44,710 --> 01:51:49,630
reach out to me you got my my
contact info keep that handy and

1817
01:51:49,670 --> 01:51:53,150
and please feel free to to reach
out even if it's like you know

1818
01:51:53,150 --> 01:51:55,350
you've you you're studying
something and you feel like you

1819
01:51:55,350 --> 01:51:57,190
want to share it.
Don't hesitate.

1820
01:51:58,350 --> 01:52:00,590
I enjoyed talking to you.
I think you're you're you're a

1821
01:52:00,590 --> 01:52:04,310
heck of a nice guy and and I I
appreciate the time you took.

1822
01:52:07,670 --> 01:52:09,590
All right.
Appreciate it, David.

1823
01:52:09,710 --> 01:52:10,790
Thank you so much.
You too.

1824
01:52:11,630 --> 01:52:12,750
All right.
Bye everybody.

1825
01:52:34,990 --> 01:52:37,590
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.