Episode #84: Exploring Fundamentalist Churches Part 1: The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints & The Kingdom Of God W/Stephen Nielsen

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When I first left the LDS
Church, I remember trying to

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look around for a place for me
and my family to worship on

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Sundays.
As I was doing my searching, it

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wasn't like there was exactly
big fundamentalist church

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buildings on every corner.
This meant that I had to do my

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due diligence and really look
around.

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Now for a guy like me who might
be just a little bit lazy, who

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likes his recliner, a bag of
Doritos and football a little

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too much, it felt daunting.
I remember thinking, man, I wish

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this was easier.
Well, starting today, I'm hoping

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to make that search for other
folks a little bit easier as I

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begin a series of podcasts on
different Mormon fundamentalist

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churches today.
I have Steven Nielsen on the

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podcast.
Steven is in the leadership of a

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Mormon fundamentalist church
called the Church of Jesus

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Christ of Latter Day Saints in
the Kingdom of God, also known

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as the Nielsen Nailers.
Today during our conversation,

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we cover Stevens personal
history, which I have to say is

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absolutely fascinating since it
covers a lot of modern day

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fundamentalist history, and then
move on to what the Nielsen

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Nailers believe in some of their
practices.

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Along the way in our
conversation, we somehow managed

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to touch on a large number of
gospel topics and principles.

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Not only do I find Steven to be
a great guy, I'm glad to call

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him a friend now.
I learned a lot in his

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conversation.
And just a side note, I attended

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church with the Nielsen Nailers
a few weeks back and that

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everyone there was just as warm
and friendly as Steven was.

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So stick around for a
fascinating conversation on this

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episode of the Mormon Renegade
podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse to become and
raise men and women of virtue

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and characters, a Herculean
task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com, go to the

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bottom of the page, search out
the blog post, and order your

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copy.
Today I can bear personal

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testimony from personal
experience that this is an

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invaluable tool to help you
raise men and women of virtue

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and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Steven, thanks for being here

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man.
Glad to glad to do it.

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A little nervous, but glad to do
it.

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That nervousness will go away in
a second.

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We get.
I get that a lot.

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It'll go away in just a few
minutes.

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It when once people once people
figure out this is a

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conversation not an interview,
things go go a lot better.

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So, but how's everything been
going for you since the last

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time we talked?
Well, busy, just really busy,

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but but really good.
It seems like everybody's busy

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these days and and but I've
been, I've been on the opposite

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side of it.
So this is great.

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So yeah, yeah, no, it's it is
surveying kind of the same way.

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It's either you're so busy you
don't know what you're going to

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do, or there's no work at all.
It's feast your family.

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But so we were set up by a
mutual friend who shout out to

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Sean Anderson.
I had heard great things about

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your church.
I mean absolutely fantastic

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things.
And so I I really wanted to take

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some time to interview somebody
about it.

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And as I reached out to Sean,
cuz I knew he had a few

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connections there.
He he gave me your number and

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when we talked it was a great
conversation there on the phone.

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So I have no doubts this is
going to go well, but what's the

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name of your church again?
Well officially and and it's the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints and the Kingdom of

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God.
So that that whole long title

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which is, which is interesting
because because it's you know

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it's close you know close
resemblance to our mother Church

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and but.
That's that's the name that's

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the name of our church.
We people often call us a Nelson

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Naylor group primarily because
of of my dad was my dad was in

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charge and there's also Frank
Naylor was an old older

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gentleman that was in charge.
So we people tend to think of us

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as more than Nelson Naylor
Group.

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Gotcha.
Gotcha.

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Can you speak?
Up just a little bit.

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Absolutely.
So tell me a little bit about

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you.
Were you raised in this?

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I mean, are you, are you from
fundamentalist stock, so to

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speak?
Yeah, I was born and raised.

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I was born in Salt Lake and was
been raised in this all my life.

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As a young boy.
I think about we were probably

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five years old.
My dad split the family apart,

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not necessarily between mothers,
but.

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Between different ones of the of
the kids and I ended out going

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down South and Colorado City and
living there with some of my

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sisters who were going to
school.

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And that was for I think
probably from the time I was

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about maybe four or five till
8:00 to 9:00 right in there.

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So I lived in Colorado City and
the rest of my my older brothers

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and some of my younger sisters
all lived in Salt Lake.

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So we had.
We've kind of separated our

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family out there and so I I went
to 1st and 2nd grade in Colorado

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City and got to know a lot of
the people in Colorado City that

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are still there today, made a
lot of friends 1st and 2nd grade

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that are still my friends today
was.

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Now, were you guys part of the
FLDS at that time or was it was

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that?
Technically, you know the the

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FLDS or the actual organization
of the FLDS wasn't in existence

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at that time.
In fact we were actually, it was

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not even an organized group like
Incorporated.

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We just you know, they called us
the the the group or the work or

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whatever the name was.
We actually wasn't an actual

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incorporated entity of any sort
and but we were all part of that

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great big group with Leroy
Johnson and.

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And that the whole council of
man before that division, that

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happened in the 80s.
And so that was the group that I

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grew up in.
My dad was a convert in the

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1950s as a result from the From
the Truth magazine that Joseph

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Musser had put out and in the
early 50s.

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Why he came.
He came into what we call the

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work.
And wasn't married started his

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family and several of his
brothers and sisters came.

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Also my grandpa, they grew up in
Hiram, Utah.

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And of course the Jessups were
up in Hiram.

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And so my grandpa, well, they
were actually in Millville, but

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it's right next to Hiram.
My grandpa was the sheriff up

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there in Millville and Hiram
area and so he knew all the

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Jessups.
And he knew they were all kind

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of polygamous people.
And but he was, he was well in

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the church.
So when my dad kind of got

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associated with the
fundamentalist people, my

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grandpa just was like, don't get
too associated with those

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people, man.
They'll gather up a couple of

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knickknacks from Short Creek and
marry him To you and to him a

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knickknack was a was an old
horse that that just, you know,

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just wasn't up to much.
And so he he had kind of this.

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A little warning there.
And.

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And after some time, my dad
ended out bringing him to church

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one day.
Why?

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And he just says it was like an
old family reunion.

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All those old friends he knew
from Millville and up in the

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Hiram area.
We're all you know, he says.

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It was just like an old reunion
for them.

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And so my grandpa eventually did
come around and ended out

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marrying two or three of those
gals from Short Creek.

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Nice.
Nice.

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Yeah, so.
So did did you ever meet Roy

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Johnson?
Yes.

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Yes.
What was he like?

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Because I've read some things on
him and he seems like a man who

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really loved his people.
He did, He was.

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He was very, he was a very kind
man, very soft spoken.

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He wasn't a long speaker.
I remember as a kid I loved it

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because he would give short
sermons.

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But off times he would tell
stories and things that you

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could relate to inspiring
stories.

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But there was a there was a a
feeling around him and perhaps

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it was that we were we were
taught to respect him.

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I mean he was somebody really
important.

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Perhaps that was some of the
reason why that I thought very

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highly of him.
But in all my interaction and

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and and again I was, I think I
was 20 years old when he passed

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away, so.
So I was, I was young for those

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some of those five, 6-7 years
that I remember him speaking in

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in church and and just
occasionally, you know,

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visiting, you know him but you
know, not formal vases.

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I don't want to put over any
idea that I was like a bosom

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friend with him at all.
He was he.

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I knew who he was and it's
obviously shaking hands and

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talked with him briefly at
times.

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I got you, but I but I liked
him.

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I liked him a lot.
I thought he was a he was a good

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man.
What was ruling Jeff's like a

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little?
Far more austere and a really, I

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mean, those that knew him
intimately says.

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He was a lot kind, more kind,
but he was the kind of man, a

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little bit nononsense kind of a
man that you didn't.

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You know he would tell you what
he thought real bluntly and and.

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He was.
He tended to be a more of a

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scriptorian.
A lot of his sermons and things

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were more he'd lean real heavy
and read lots of scripture,

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which made me fall asleep as a
as a kid.

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I I just didn't get that.
And I liked storytellers.

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I wanted people that, you know,
would tell stories.

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But I didn't.
I knew him probably about as

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much as I knew Leroy Johnson.
Even though he lived longer, I

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just was not in those places
that circle where I associated

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him with him, like perhaps some
of my friends.

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My friends, did I got you?
And did you ever have any

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interactions with Warren?
Yes, yeah, I actually did.

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Warren was my school teacher
from the third well, from 4th

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grade to 8th grade, and he
taught us.

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Math and and history but priest
of history you might not not

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world history and it was priest
of history and very interesting

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man I I with with all the ways
that that things has gone these

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last 1520 years or or more it's
it's very interesting to to see

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the man that he became when I
knew him at school.

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I actually liked him a lot of
people, you know, didn't.

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He was a little fanatical and a
little bit eccentric, but I kind

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of liked him.
He was, he was a kind of a tall

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figure to a kid and had a
certain charisma that attracted

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me to to him and but I really he
he probably helped give me a

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foundation in the gospel.
At a certain age, probably as

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good or better than my parents
even did.

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He was very he would we went
into preached history and it was

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it was really one of the classes
I enjoyed the most.

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We would talk about, I say world
history, but it was it was like

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biblical history and he went
into that a lot of preached

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ideas and doctrines.
And like I say, he was what I

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what I mean by a little bit
fanatical.

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Is just here's a little example
we had he had a like what he

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called the Priested history
notebook and they had a lot of

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the things that we would study
out of that.

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Well, in the beginning of that
Priested history notebook was 4

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handwritten sheets of paper.
So he'd make his hand write out

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these four sheets of paper that
had to do with Priested quotes

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and different things.
And he we would have to write

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those things out by hand and all
four by off memory.

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00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:06,600
And if we missed even one comma,
one period, the whole thing was

227
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,120
failed.
And he would have us do this

228
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,720
several times through the year.
And so I would remember those

229
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,840
papers.
And at one time I asked him

230
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,840
because I was a white person,
always a white person, sure.

231
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,880
Why are we doing this?
And and lazy.

232
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,120
That comes from a little bit of
laziness because.

233
00:14:26,450 --> 00:14:28,810
I can know why we're doing this.
If I'm going to put forth in or

234
00:14:28,810 --> 00:14:30,610
energy and effort, I'm right
there with you.

235
00:14:30,930 --> 00:14:34,690
And but anyway, so I'd ask him,
I'd just say, yeah, we called

236
00:14:34,690 --> 00:14:37,450
him Mr. Jeffs, but I'd say Mr.
Jeffs, why?

237
00:14:37,810 --> 00:14:40,130
Why are you making us do this
like this?

238
00:14:40,130 --> 00:14:43,730
This just seems so bizarre.
And he would just, and he would

239
00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:46,850
say, someday you're going to be
tested on this stuff and you're

240
00:14:46,850 --> 00:14:48,690
going to need to know it by
heart.

241
00:14:49,570 --> 00:14:52,210
And so I thought, oh, OK, good
enough for me.

242
00:14:52,830 --> 00:14:56,630
And so we would remember we had
like the heads of dispensations.

243
00:14:56,630 --> 00:15:01,030
We had some priesthood quotes.
We had a few quotes from from

244
00:15:01,030 --> 00:15:04,110
one from the 1880 revelation,
one from the teachings of the

245
00:15:04,110 --> 00:15:06,750
Prophet Joseph.
And so you'd have to memorize

246
00:15:06,750 --> 00:15:10,830
all these quotes every comma,
every period and everything.

247
00:15:10,830 --> 00:15:14,990
And and interesting enough,
halfway through my 8th grade

248
00:15:14,990 --> 00:15:18,390
year he left school for two
weeks.

249
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:22,150
No explanation, just brought a
substitute, In said.

250
00:15:23,470 --> 00:15:27,910
This year, new teacher for Till
I come back and nobody knew

251
00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:30,230
where he went.
And after a couple of weeks he

252
00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:34,030
came back and he was a different
person.

253
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:36,670
He's always had that little
fanaticism.

254
00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:40,030
But this time it was fullblown
weird.

255
00:15:40,670 --> 00:15:43,910
He talked weird.
He talked in that same voice.

256
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:47,750
If you've ever heard him, you
know it's it's a it's a real

257
00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:53,040
weird, slow, almost a.
Mesmerizing, hypnotic voice and

258
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:58,480
and he talked weird and he would
say things he and and he the

259
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,320
first things he did, he says
everybody pull out your

260
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,400
priesthood history notebooks.
And we all did.

261
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,680
He says take those four sheets
in the front of the book and rip

262
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,600
them out of your book.
And so we all ripped them out of

263
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,240
our books.
He says pass them forward to the

264
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,560
front of the class.
And we all didn't.

265
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,560
He loved it.
It was another weird thing about

266
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:17,640
him.
He loved to test you.

267
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,690
He was always.
Putting in these little tests.

268
00:16:21,250 --> 00:16:23,010
And so I thought, oh, it's the
test.

269
00:16:23,730 --> 00:16:27,610
And so we got, he got all those
papers and he leaned over the

270
00:16:27,610 --> 00:16:31,050
side of the desk and he dropped
him in the garbage can and he

271
00:16:31,050 --> 00:16:36,330
goes, he goes, they're not true.
And I kind of was the back of

272
00:16:36,330 --> 00:16:39,370
the room and I was leaning, I
was leaning my chair against the

273
00:16:39,370 --> 00:16:42,610
wall and I I was smiling And I
thought, well, pass that test,

274
00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:45,930
you know, because they were all
upstairs.

275
00:16:45,930 --> 00:16:49,460
They were in my head.
And and so I thought, oh, this

276
00:16:49,460 --> 00:16:51,100
is the test he was talking
about.

277
00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:56,340
I didn't realize that, that it
was going a different direction

278
00:16:56,340 --> 00:16:58,580
at that point.
Everything.

279
00:16:58,740 --> 00:17:00,300
Did you know what had happened
to him?

280
00:17:01,140 --> 00:17:03,180
Why he was on that too.
I didn't.

281
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:05,500
I have.
I have since heard.

282
00:17:06,020 --> 00:17:12,099
I've since heard people say that
that he got called into account

283
00:17:12,740 --> 00:17:17,270
for some things that.
You know we're happening with

284
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:21,270
him that you know I hate to
speculate whether whether these

285
00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:25,150
were some of the things early on
but but he kind of got called

286
00:17:25,150 --> 00:17:30,110
into account and and kind of
like boom you better get your

287
00:17:30,110 --> 00:17:34,670
act together.
Now whether that's the case he

288
00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:37,510
we we never heard.
I just I'd heard that years

289
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:41,190
later from somebody that had
just kind of stayed with that

290
00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:43,710
group of people and and they
told me, you know, you know why

291
00:17:43,710 --> 00:17:46,430
he left didn't you?
I said no, I didn't.

292
00:17:47,070 --> 00:17:51,030
So but it makes a little bit of
sense because he was really,

293
00:17:51,030 --> 00:17:54,870
really, I mean he wouldn't even
hardly crack a smile after that

294
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:58,470
and he was all business and he
was, he was he was going to get

295
00:17:58,470 --> 00:18:05,230
us all going some direction and
and so that was my last of men.

296
00:18:05,230 --> 00:18:09,390
We only went to the 8th grade at
in that school, and so that was

297
00:18:09,390 --> 00:18:12,790
the last six months of my in my
8th grade year.

298
00:18:13,580 --> 00:18:18,020
Let me let me ask you this.
When he tosses those papers into

299
00:18:18,020 --> 00:18:24,580
the trash and says they're not
true, was he saying, did he have

300
00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:28,420
like a crisis of faith that the
gospel wasn't true, that the

301
00:18:28,420 --> 00:18:30,580
history wasn't true?
What did?

302
00:18:30,620 --> 00:18:34,460
Did you ever get a sense of what
he meant by It's not true?

303
00:18:34,780 --> 00:18:38,740
Yeah, because because it was
every single morning after that

304
00:18:38,740 --> 00:18:40,500
in school for the next six
months.

305
00:18:41,050 --> 00:18:45,130
This new doctrine was was coming
out and it was the prophet we'd

306
00:18:45,130 --> 00:18:46,930
never see, we never grew up
with.

307
00:18:46,930 --> 00:18:50,010
I never even heard a term, the
prophet, a prophet.

308
00:18:50,170 --> 00:18:53,250
I mean if you said the prophet,
it was the Prophet Joseph Smith,

309
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:58,130
he was the prophet and there was
no other prophet of this

310
00:18:58,130 --> 00:19:00,650
dispensation.
So, but we grew up with this,

311
00:19:00,730 --> 00:19:04,730
this idea of the priesthood
council and so.

312
00:19:05,870 --> 00:19:08,990
And there was, you know there
was the president of the

313
00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:11,870
priesthood council.
But they were all, they were all

314
00:19:11,870 --> 00:19:14,510
this quorum of body that was in
charge.

315
00:19:14,910 --> 00:19:19,750
And then all the sudden we were
hearing about the prophet or our

316
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:24,150
Holy prophet that kind of stuff
are if our Holy Prophet.

317
00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:27,310
And and I'm just thinking why is
he talking this way?

318
00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:30,830
Because he and he would say
these real fanatical things like

319
00:19:30,830 --> 00:19:33,750
in his in his voice he'd say,
you know.

320
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:38,360
If the Holy Prophet told me to
kill somebody I would do it and

321
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:41,760
not even think about it.
If he told me to jump off a

322
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,360
Cliff, I would jump.
And I remember thinking you're

323
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:52,040
an idiot and but that's and so
but I thought I still didn't

324
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,400
know if this was kind of a test
we're just being tested and so

325
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,720
so I got a hold of him after
school one time and I just.

326
00:20:02,190 --> 00:20:06,350
And I basically I just said what
is up with all of this And he

327
00:20:06,350 --> 00:20:11,630
just says, he just says we have
been received new light and this

328
00:20:11,630 --> 00:20:15,270
is a new way to go.
We this is he he called Uncle

329
00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:20,630
Roy is our prophet and you know
he is God's mouthpiece.

330
00:20:20,670 --> 00:20:24,750
And we we listened to him and
nobody else and all this kind of

331
00:20:24,750 --> 00:20:26,550
weird stuff.
And I was just like, but what

332
00:20:26,550 --> 00:20:28,670
about this other stuff that we
threw away?

333
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:33,670
And he just says that's he just
says some of that.

334
00:20:33,670 --> 00:20:38,110
Some of that's not bad.
But he says, but primarily there

335
00:20:38,110 --> 00:20:40,430
are things in that that are just
not true.

336
00:20:40,430 --> 00:20:43,710
And it and it really doesn't
matter because it's about the

337
00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:47,630
Holy Prophet now.
And I just said, So what am I

338
00:20:47,630 --> 00:20:50,470
supposed to do with all this
stuff that you put in my head

339
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:54,710
and he just says, well, just
discard it.

340
00:20:55,630 --> 00:20:57,550
And I said you're kind of a
cruel man.

341
00:20:57,990 --> 00:21:00,270
I said you pounded that into my
head so hard.

342
00:21:00,270 --> 00:21:03,980
I'll never get it out, ever.
And you know, he kind of

343
00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:05,620
shrugged.
These soldiers, well, that's

344
00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:08,820
kind of your problem.
So does this, do you think this

345
00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:13,380
is something that comes from
from Leroy Johnson?

346
00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:15,780
Or do you think that this is
something that comes from maybe

347
00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:19,660
Ruin and Ruin understands he's
about to consolidate power after

348
00:21:19,660 --> 00:21:23,900
Leroy passes, because this seems
out of step with what I've read

349
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:25,580
about Johnson.
I'm not saying that it's not

350
00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:28,980
possible, but it doesn't seem
like it holds water with who he

351
00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:31,350
was.
Do you get a feeling for for

352
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:35,550
what happened there?
It certainly it certainly wasn't

353
00:21:35,550 --> 00:21:39,710
consistent with the way he
talked early on in any sermons

354
00:21:39,710 --> 00:21:42,190
and everything that I ever heard
him say.

355
00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:49,390
He got sick the last seven years
of his life he got sick and you

356
00:21:49,390 --> 00:21:54,710
know this is probably a a source
of a lot of speculation on

357
00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:58,590
people and probably even some
some real tender feelings with

358
00:21:58,790 --> 00:22:05,140
with people at this point.
But a doctrine tended to change

359
00:22:05,140 --> 00:22:10,220
and why it changed I don't know.
I have observed, I've observed

360
00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:14,540
when men do get older and
they're late and he was, he was

361
00:22:14,540 --> 00:22:16,580
old at this time.
He almost lived, lived to be

362
00:22:16,580 --> 00:22:19,780
almost 100.
And so this would have been he

363
00:22:19,780 --> 00:22:25,460
would have been in his 90s and
he was getting a, you know, a

364
00:22:25,460 --> 00:22:27,900
shot.
This is some speculation on on

365
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:31,260
the effects of this.
But he he told my dad he says I

366
00:22:31,260 --> 00:22:36,140
get a shot of Demerol in my
stomach twice a day and have for

367
00:22:36,140 --> 00:22:38,460
years now.
And he says, I look like a

368
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:44,100
screen door and you're talking
about a hallucinogenic drug.

369
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:49,860
And and I personally think he
did pretty darn well for a guy

370
00:22:49,860 --> 00:22:53,380
getting that kind of medication.
Now, I've talked with a lot of

371
00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:56,380
my friends that were still
there, that have since pulled

372
00:22:56,380 --> 00:23:00,500
out of the FLDS that would argue
with me and say all he was the

373
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:02,780
same man he always was.
He never changed.

374
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:06,100
But you can see a distinct
change in his doctrine.

375
00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:12,380
I think there was a lot of men
around him that started pumping

376
00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:15,500
him full of stories.
And that was a little bit

377
00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:19,020
evident because of my dad was
pretty close to him.

378
00:23:19,580 --> 00:23:23,820
And my dad would tell me, he
just says, you know, I went and

379
00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:27,740
seen him and he says he'd tell
me some strange things.

380
00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:31,780
And he says, and I'd say he'd
just say, I'd say, well, you

381
00:23:31,780 --> 00:23:33,900
know, that's not true.
And he'd say, well, that's what

382
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:38,380
they tell me things like that.
And so it seemed like there was

383
00:23:38,380 --> 00:23:45,540
a there was a quite an effort to
at least suggest some things to

384
00:23:45,540 --> 00:23:51,700
his mind, and perhaps he perhaps
that swayed him to in a measure

385
00:23:52,370 --> 00:23:55,730
along those lines.
But I think he always

386
00:23:55,730 --> 00:23:59,570
maintained, from what I could
see, a goodness about him and a

387
00:23:59,690 --> 00:24:07,290
a very humbleness and perhaps a
he really did care even to the

388
00:24:07,290 --> 00:24:10,250
very end a genuine care for the
people.

389
00:24:10,330 --> 00:24:15,090
He was a very good father figure
that the people felt really

390
00:24:15,090 --> 00:24:18,650
comfortable.
With and during this time under

391
00:24:18,650 --> 00:24:20,930
under Johnson's administration,
if you will.

392
00:24:21,710 --> 00:24:24,230
Are they practicing things like
placement, marriage?

393
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:25,790
Are they doing those sorts of
things?

394
00:24:25,790 --> 00:24:29,870
Was that a common practice?
Yeah, that was a that was a real

395
00:24:29,870 --> 00:24:36,710
common practice and you know it
it it started early on, before

396
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:38,430
my time.
So it was kind of one of those

397
00:24:38,430 --> 00:24:42,590
practices that you grew up that
I grew up with and never really

398
00:24:42,590 --> 00:24:46,270
questioned, you know, and you
know this is might be a little

399
00:24:46,270 --> 00:24:51,520
revealing, but until I got old
enough to recognize girls and

400
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,360
then it became a real fear
because you know, you're you're

401
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:58,200
not sure what it's coming down
the road for you.

402
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,200
And and I was really fearful
about some of those things

403
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:08,920
because I'd watched a lot of
people just kind of get girls

404
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,760
just get put places and boys,
not even knowing who they were

405
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,400
going to marry till till 10
minutes before they got married.

406
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,870
And they get stood up and say,
yeah, here so and so, so and so

407
00:25:20,910 --> 00:25:23,550
and 10 minutes later they're
married and that was a little

408
00:25:23,550 --> 00:25:25,350
terrifying for me.
I I got a.

409
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:32,270
I can only imagine and so but so
that placement I again my this

410
00:25:32,270 --> 00:25:35,110
is again my speculation and I
got to get a little disclaimer

411
00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:36,710
even about part of this
interview.

412
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:39,350
I want to be careful because a
lot of these things are my

413
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:42,740
perspective and I want to make
sure people understand this

414
00:25:42,740 --> 00:25:46,780
isn't I'm not speaking as any
kind of an authority on things.

415
00:25:47,020 --> 00:25:50,660
This is my perspective and some
of my history that I remembered.

416
00:25:50,900 --> 00:25:55,220
So some of it might be a little
skewed according to what I saw,

417
00:25:56,140 --> 00:26:02,500
but but the placement thing, as
I grew older and started to see

418
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:06,100
things, I think that it was a
program that was introduced to

419
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:12,680
try to stop another problem
which was 1012 men all getting

420
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,680
revelations over one girl And
then it's like then how do you

421
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,400
deal with that.
And so it got to the point where

422
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:25,160
I think that they they started
this program and it morphed into

423
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,440
a doctrine and even almost an
eternal principle if you will,

424
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,840
that that you know it's tough to
tough to find that to.

425
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,160
I mean, I believe in revelation,
marriage.

426
00:26:38,310 --> 00:26:41,310
And I believe and believe that
that people can help.

427
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:43,230
Yeah.
I think a father has a lot of

428
00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:47,950
influence to help his daughter
in who she can marry.

429
00:26:47,950 --> 00:26:50,150
I mean, help her.
You know, as I tell my own

430
00:26:50,150 --> 00:26:53,470
daughters, God didn't put me
here to make your decisions, but

431
00:26:53,470 --> 00:26:58,310
he did put me here to help guide
you to the right decisions.

432
00:26:58,830 --> 00:27:02,390
And and you know, and because
you know, if there's a guy I'm

433
00:27:02,390 --> 00:27:05,590
going to have to beat up, you
know, I got to know I can take

434
00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:10,510
him.
So, no, I I I agree with you.

435
00:27:10,550 --> 00:27:16,230
I think, look, I think if a
woman goes to her religious

436
00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:19,270
leader and says I'm ready to get
married, but I'm drawing a blank

437
00:27:19,270 --> 00:27:23,990
on who I should marry and she
kind of says, will you help me?

438
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:27,310
I think he it's incumbent that
he helps right now.

439
00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:34,190
I think that that woman's agency
needs to be respected above all

440
00:27:34,190 --> 00:27:37,050
else.
I think that if she has an idea

441
00:27:37,050 --> 00:27:40,850
of who she'd like to marry and
she's got the backing of her,

442
00:27:40,970 --> 00:27:46,610
her family, her dad, I I tend to
be a little bit like and and

443
00:27:46,650 --> 00:27:48,730
everyone's got their own
revelation on it.

444
00:27:49,050 --> 00:27:53,170
I tend to to err on the side of
let's let people figure this

445
00:27:53,210 --> 00:27:56,770
out, right, because I think it's
just safer in the long run.

446
00:27:57,370 --> 00:28:00,690
Now again, I'm not opposed
because I was certainly

447
00:28:00,690 --> 00:28:04,940
protective over my daughter's.
In fact, when when she married

448
00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:08,420
her husband, who's a great guy.
I love, I love Nathan to death.

449
00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:13,540
But I remember he came down and
kind of talked to me and I have

450
00:28:13,540 --> 00:28:17,700
this big semi truck battery.
I used to power up one of my

451
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:21,780
pieces of equipment and I
couldn't help playing with him.

452
00:28:21,780 --> 00:28:23,940
I said, you know what that'll do
to a man's testicles.

453
00:28:26,740 --> 00:28:29,300
So, so no, I think we all have
to be.

454
00:28:30,060 --> 00:28:33,140
Have to be protective over our
our, our daughters.

455
00:28:34,220 --> 00:28:38,380
But I I also think their their
agency has to be respected

456
00:28:38,380 --> 00:28:39,820
there.
Yeah, absolutely.

457
00:28:39,860 --> 00:28:48,140
I I agree with you 100%.
So when Ruin takes over, does it

458
00:28:48,140 --> 00:28:54,820
get worse it at this time?
See, we we broke away in about

459
00:28:54,820 --> 00:29:01,220
84 and now Leroy Johnson passed
away in in November of 86.

460
00:29:01,860 --> 00:29:08,740
And so the last couple of years
I was, we were kind of really

461
00:29:08,740 --> 00:29:11,740
separated from that, from that
main group.

462
00:29:12,220 --> 00:29:14,180
But we still was familiar with
it.

463
00:29:14,180 --> 00:29:18,900
I had friends there and it did
seem like it started to take a

464
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:23,060
turn even more.
There was more things that were

465
00:29:23,060 --> 00:29:28,650
said you know and primarily the
things that affected me was you

466
00:29:28,650 --> 00:29:32,530
need to stop associating with
the apostates was things that

467
00:29:32,530 --> 00:29:36,050
were coming out of their group.
So my friends, we had to cut

468
00:29:36,050 --> 00:29:39,290
ties my friends and and I didn't
like that I had really good

469
00:29:39,290 --> 00:29:41,930
friends and they would they
would come to me and just say

470
00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:45,650
hey, I know we're friends but
we're not supposed to talk to

471
00:29:45,650 --> 00:29:48,890
you.
And I'd just say well why this

472
00:29:48,890 --> 00:29:52,570
is Bill you're I know it doesn't
make sense but it just would be

473
00:29:52,570 --> 00:29:57,320
easier this way And I had so I
had sisters had a couple of

474
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,240
sisters that were over there and
they stopped talking to us and

475
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,880
you know and and so everything
kind of pulled away We you

476
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,880
couldn't hardly get in for any
information from from then.

477
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:15,360
So you started to see like it is
when when you you don't really

478
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,040
know what's going on it's easy
to believe every radical story

479
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,530
that comes out of a group.
So in fairness to them, but

480
00:30:23,530 --> 00:30:27,050
probably believed a lot of real
weird stories that maybe some of

481
00:30:27,050 --> 00:30:30,370
those didn't happen, right?
But we had no way of finding

482
00:30:30,370 --> 00:30:31,610
out.
You had no way of knowing.

483
00:30:31,850 --> 00:30:37,810
At best things went weird and as
as we saw subsequent to that,

484
00:30:37,810 --> 00:30:40,130
the way it eventually went.
Yeah.

485
00:30:41,850 --> 00:30:49,370
So you guys, when that first
break off happens, well First

486
00:30:49,370 --> 00:30:52,030
off before I go there.
There's a couple of things about

487
00:30:52,030 --> 00:30:56,070
your story there that that
really caught my attention.

488
00:30:56,070 --> 00:31:01,030
One was passing up those papers
from other priesthood leaders

489
00:31:01,030 --> 00:31:05,590
and then trashing them.
That for anyone listening, that

490
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:08,430
should be a red flag.
If anyone tells you ever don't

491
00:31:08,430 --> 00:31:11,350
worry about what the old guy
said, that should be a red flag.

492
00:31:11,710 --> 00:31:14,270
You should really take that to
heart, because something isn't

493
00:31:14,270 --> 00:31:18,190
right if you if you're finding
that your your new doctrine is

494
00:31:18,190 --> 00:31:19,830
conflicting with the old
doctrine.

495
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,120
You need to take a real hard
look at that because that is

496
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,560
super problematic.
And it's almost, to me, as you

497
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,160
were telling the story about
that, it was almost symbolic of

498
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,720
like erasing your history,
right.

499
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,800
You know, where you don't worry
about this stuff that's gone,

500
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,160
that's over.
You don't need to ever think

501
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,000
about that again.
It's all about this new program,

502
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,320
whoever this is.
Yep.

503
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,520
So.
So I think that's a huge take

504
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:48,840
away and I'm glad you shared
that.

505
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,440
So when when you make that split
and and you're obviously a kid

506
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,200
at this time.
So is this something that you

507
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:02,040
you have a decision to make or
is this something that your

508
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:07,760
parents do for you?
Well, my, my, my dad had decided

509
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,720
he wasn't going down that road.
And so we we understood as a

510
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,760
family and we, there were
several families that all had

511
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,680
did kind of taken this stand
really.

512
00:32:19,710 --> 00:32:22,310
They were really trying to just
stay going down the same way we

513
00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:23,990
had always gone.
Right.

514
00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:28,990
But it was when this thing kind
of went sideways on us, we just

515
00:32:28,990 --> 00:32:32,070
said, look, we're just, my dad
said this, we're just not going

516
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:34,830
down this road.
Now, in one sense, it was easy,

517
00:32:34,830 --> 00:32:38,910
easier to go with my dad, But in
another sense, it was very

518
00:32:38,910 --> 00:32:42,430
difficult to walk away from some
of those friends because at 14

519
00:32:42,430 --> 00:32:46,190
years old, your friends are more
important than your parents.

520
00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:51,270
Oh yeah.
You know and so it was hard for

521
00:32:51,270 --> 00:32:56,110
me to walk away from those
friends and and and just not

522
00:32:56,110 --> 00:32:59,750
have anything to do with them
because I would keep, I'd want

523
00:32:59,750 --> 00:33:01,870
to keep associating with them.
Right.

524
00:33:01,990 --> 00:33:04,990
But they're the ones kind of
telling me, look we we're not

525
00:33:04,990 --> 00:33:06,870
supposed to talk to you.
We're going to get in trouble if

526
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:10,430
we do.
And so that it kind of it would

527
00:33:10,430 --> 00:33:13,790
just became really awkward at
the time and I wasn't nearly as

528
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:19,510
how should I say, willing to
just push the envelope a little

529
00:33:19,510 --> 00:33:23,430
bit with people like I am today.
I, you know, I wouldn't put up

530
00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:26,110
with that today.
I'd just go right up and go talk

531
00:33:26,110 --> 00:33:27,550
to him.
I don't care, right.

532
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:29,710
But back then I was like, this
is awkward.

533
00:33:29,710 --> 00:33:33,390
I don't know what to do.
And so I just, I just, you know

534
00:33:33,390 --> 00:33:36,630
avoid it as much as I could.
But I didn't like it.

535
00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:39,390
I I did not like it.
It didn't feel good to me.

536
00:33:39,670 --> 00:33:42,790
Well, it's such a radical
departure from what?

537
00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:50,140
And, and in Full disclosure, I
just wrapped up a Part 2 of an

538
00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:54,140
interview with Michael Ness who
did a bunch of historical work

539
00:33:54,140 --> 00:33:55,500
on Musser.
Yeah.

540
00:33:56,580 --> 00:34:00,540
And Musser in those, those early
brethren, right when when

541
00:34:00,540 --> 00:34:04,300
fundamentalism is starting to
take its take shape of what it

542
00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:07,180
would be, It was all done by
council, right?

543
00:34:07,420 --> 00:34:09,380
Right.
There wasn't just one guy.

544
00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:12,659
Now, obviously, natural leaders
kind of rise, but.

545
00:34:13,219 --> 00:34:15,940
It was it was structured that
there was a council there.

546
00:34:16,260 --> 00:34:20,860
So the fact that it it's all
very, I shouldn't say symbolic,

547
00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:23,380
but but you can start seeing
where things start getting off

548
00:34:23,380 --> 00:34:29,100
course a little bit when when
this group that Musser and John

549
00:34:29,260 --> 00:34:32,570
Y Barlow had set up.
And and it was a council right

550
00:34:32,570 --> 00:34:35,610
and it was it was meant to to
guard against this kind of

551
00:34:35,610 --> 00:34:38,530
tyranny and and when when those
start going out the window and

552
00:34:38,530 --> 00:34:41,489
you start seeing our holy
prophet and blah blah blah,

553
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:44,690
things start taking on a
different right different shape

554
00:34:44,690 --> 00:34:49,050
and and and what not.
So when, when, when that break

555
00:34:49,330 --> 00:34:54,530
initially happens, it at that
point is what would And, and I

556
00:34:54,530 --> 00:34:57,210
mean no disrespect by saying
this, so if you don't like me

557
00:34:57,210 --> 00:34:58,930
using this name, I can certainly
switch.

558
00:34:59,740 --> 00:35:02,980
The Nielsen Naylors, were they
part of Centennial Park at that

559
00:35:02,980 --> 00:35:05,340
time?
Because that split would would

560
00:35:05,340 --> 00:35:07,580
give birth to Centennial Park.
Am I correct?

561
00:35:07,580 --> 00:35:09,140
Yes, that's that's correct.
Yes.

562
00:35:09,140 --> 00:35:14,460
We were all, all of us were all
part of of this whole body week.

563
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:17,020
They sometimes referred to it as
Second Ward.

564
00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:21,380
But, but it was only just to
make a distinction like who was

565
00:35:21,380 --> 00:35:23,980
who.
And so yes there was a there was

566
00:35:23,980 --> 00:35:28,340
a fairly large group in Salt
Lake that separated and of

567
00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:32,850
course not as big of a group
down in Colorado City that

568
00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:38,570
separated and eventually by 8586
had bought some property that is

569
00:35:38,570 --> 00:35:41,570
referred to now Centennial Park
kind of across the highway from

570
00:35:41,570 --> 00:35:44,890
Colorado City.
And so yes we were all we were

571
00:35:45,250 --> 00:35:49,410
part of that group and and in
that council that council

572
00:35:49,410 --> 00:35:55,570
separate as kind of split down
the middle there was a there was

573
00:35:55,570 --> 00:35:58,980
a couple of the older men that
had passed away during kind of

574
00:35:58,980 --> 00:36:01,620
during the division.
But when it when the division

575
00:36:01,620 --> 00:36:05,780
kind of became final Leroy
Johnson and Rule and Jeff

576
00:36:05,780 --> 00:36:10,380
separated from Marion Hammond
and and Alma Timpson and so that

577
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:15,700
kind of solidified that that two
different two different camps if

578
00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:19,300
you will and we went we went
with this camp with Marion

579
00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:24,830
Hammond and and Alma Timpson and
and it was only a couple of

580
00:36:24,830 --> 00:36:31,110
years after that why that that
Marion Hammond passed away and

581
00:36:31,110 --> 00:36:35,830
so and that's when we started
working on you know Centennial

582
00:36:35,830 --> 00:36:37,910
Park and building a community
out there.

583
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:41,750
It's a beautiful community that
that that's out there for sure.

584
00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:49,390
At what point do do the do the
Nielsen Nailers begin to take

585
00:36:49,390 --> 00:36:52,820
shape themselves?
Well, that does.

586
00:36:52,820 --> 00:36:58,940
So after we moved to Centennial
Park, the there was still people

587
00:36:58,940 --> 00:37:01,540
in Salt Lake of course.
But a lot of there's kind of a a

588
00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:07,820
little bit of a push to move
people down to Centennial Park

589
00:37:07,980 --> 00:37:12,260
here you we're getting toward
the end of the century.

590
00:37:12,260 --> 00:37:16,860
You know, we're in the the 80s
and there was this real push,

591
00:37:16,860 --> 00:37:20,380
you know, the end of the world's
coming by in the year 2000.

592
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:22,940
We got to have this.
We got to be in a place where

593
00:37:23,580 --> 00:37:28,260
we're pretty solid and for a lot
of these destructive elements in

594
00:37:28,260 --> 00:37:30,660
these, the world's going to be
destroyed type thing.

595
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:35,300
And so there was a real push to
move down into Centennial Park.

596
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:39,340
And so my dad didn't fully move,
but he did build a house down

597
00:37:39,340 --> 00:37:46,260
there and and I I ended out
moving there a year.

598
00:37:46,260 --> 00:37:51,240
So after I was married and lived
down there for about 5 1/2 years

599
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,880
and so the community started to
to kind of really solidify into

600
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,480
a community.
Some changes some some changes

601
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,000
begin to happen.
This is where it probably gets a

602
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,720
little dicey and and and this is
where probably other people

603
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:11,000
would tell many different
stories and like most divisions,

604
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,080
some of the biggest damage that
gets done as I see it now in

605
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,390
retrospect, is a lot of
misunderstandings.

606
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:25,550
And I think that I think that
people's feelings get hurt.

607
00:38:25,550 --> 00:38:30,870
There's there's jockeying for
positions, there's authority,

608
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:34,390
there's doctrinal
understandings, there's whole

609
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:37,750
family lines of of the way
things go.

610
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:41,070
And then pretty soon those
things start start getting

611
00:38:41,070 --> 00:38:46,930
shaken and people start to it.
It it's a hotbed for people and

612
00:38:47,890 --> 00:38:53,530
and with in fundamentalism you
get 2 choices, you adjust or

613
00:38:53,530 --> 00:38:57,970
divide and there's no, there's
really no way like in the

614
00:38:57,970 --> 00:39:01,610
modern, in the LDS church,
there's ways to call people into

615
00:39:02,010 --> 00:39:03,970
to account.
Do you have a trial, a high

616
00:39:03,970 --> 00:39:05,210
council?
There's a way.

617
00:39:05,530 --> 00:39:09,620
There's a way to deal with
problems by and large you can

618
00:39:09,620 --> 00:39:11,980
you can deal with a lot of the
little problems that come up.

619
00:39:12,460 --> 00:39:17,220
We have no way to deal with
problems and so doctrine gets

620
00:39:17,220 --> 00:39:20,820
starts to get preached or this
gets said and there's really no

621
00:39:20,820 --> 00:39:22,700
way to deal with it.
But just saying you know what,

622
00:39:23,460 --> 00:39:24,700
not going to deal with this
anymore.

623
00:39:24,860 --> 00:39:29,340
Not going down this road and and
so you end up having another

624
00:39:29,460 --> 00:39:34,820
division and and primarily you
know there's a lot of as as

625
00:39:34,820 --> 00:39:40,200
these things go there's a lot of
little nuances and things about

626
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,240
why why these things happen and
and that's probably something

627
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:48,080
that I you know probably take
somebody a lot smarter than me

628
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,040
to ever figure out how all that
happened.

629
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,160
Well, and and here's the thing.
Some of that is always lost to

630
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:59,200
history, right?
Because even though, you know,

631
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,330
we're supposed to keep journals.
Sometimes we're not even as

632
00:40:03,330 --> 00:40:06,250
forthright in our journals as
what what we'd hoped we'd be.

633
00:40:06,890 --> 00:40:09,930
I know I keep journals that I
tell my kids, you don't get to

634
00:40:09,930 --> 00:40:13,970
read this till I'm dead.
You just don't either.

635
00:40:13,970 --> 00:40:20,170
There's stuff in there that that
is my own thought process that I

636
00:40:20,170 --> 00:40:22,890
want you to retrace, but now is
not the time.

637
00:40:23,610 --> 00:40:28,560
So some of that I think is just
going to be lost to history how

638
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,680
much of it was truly doctrinal
stuff how much of it was

639
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,360
personality things those are all
things that I think are usually

640
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:42,520
and rather than or right there
could be be both within within

641
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,800
these kinds of things before
before we you get to the end So

642
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,280
during this time because I.
Can't imagine the upheaval that

643
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:56,320
you saw because you see the, the
division of the FLDS to to

644
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,400
Centennial Park or the 2nd Ward
and then you see this other

645
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,560
division which results now in in
in the Nielsen Naylors.

646
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,800
Does this ever shake you to the
core?

647
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,080
I mean, does this ever, like,
make you question this whole

648
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,760
fundamentalist thing at all?
Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

649
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,920
And and that was one that that
was was several years because.

650
00:41:20,570 --> 00:41:23,250
Because with that shakeup it
kind of took us down a

651
00:41:23,250 --> 00:41:26,650
completely different direction
that was we weren't accustomed

652
00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:31,890
to based upon our history.
In other words we had we had

653
00:41:31,890 --> 00:41:36,890
dealt with a a preached council
that were kind of considered

654
00:41:36,970 --> 00:41:41,450
like you know we we answer
straight to God not to the

655
00:41:41,450 --> 00:41:47,690
people when and this is this is
you know we're in charge

656
00:41:47,690 --> 00:41:50,290
basically we.
And I hate to use the word

657
00:41:50,290 --> 00:41:53,570
dictatorship but it was it was a
benevolent dictatorship if you

658
00:41:53,570 --> 00:41:58,170
will you know and and and that
was part of the teachings that

659
00:41:58,170 --> 00:42:03,570
that we had and and so when you
start to stray from this when

660
00:42:03,570 --> 00:42:09,210
you start to see men get old and
things change and and you start

661
00:42:09,210 --> 00:42:14,330
to watch that people get close
close into these inner circles

662
00:42:14,490 --> 00:42:16,810
with these individuals and then
pretty soon.

663
00:42:17,420 --> 00:42:22,660
The program starts to change and
you start to see this.

664
00:42:22,660 --> 00:42:27,540
This can be problematic.
And yet it was the way it was

665
00:42:27,980 --> 00:42:30,940
when I was growing up.
It was just like it was God's

666
00:42:30,940 --> 00:42:36,060
truth.
And I since have I since.

667
00:42:36,060 --> 00:42:39,740
As I read history, I start to
realize that the whole

668
00:42:39,740 --> 00:42:44,260
fundamental Society of people
has been in an evolving program

669
00:42:44,620 --> 00:42:49,540
from the time of Lauren Wooley.
To our current day, and you've

670
00:42:49,540 --> 00:42:53,140
got many different factions that
will hang on to things that

671
00:42:53,140 --> 00:42:55,980
Lauren Woolley said or John
Woolley said.

672
00:42:56,340 --> 00:42:59,180
And then, and then there's
another faction that will hang

673
00:42:59,180 --> 00:43:04,020
on to things that Joseph Musser
said and and every one of these

674
00:43:04,020 --> 00:43:10,140
different myths, these these
special special teachings that

675
00:43:10,140 --> 00:43:14,580
got had.
You see, you see this element of

676
00:43:14,580 --> 00:43:17,660
people it's almost like a
religion starts to get created

677
00:43:18,060 --> 00:43:23,620
with all the secret doctrines
that people have and and you you

678
00:43:23,620 --> 00:43:28,180
find out this, this whole, these
it's almost just fractures into

679
00:43:28,180 --> 00:43:31,540
many different groups of people.
You have the main big groups,

680
00:43:31,540 --> 00:43:35,060
but then you've got even small
families that that pulled away

681
00:43:35,420 --> 00:43:39,420
into did and did their.
Their own little thing because

682
00:43:39,860 --> 00:43:43,220
independent yeah just you know
but they would they would create

683
00:43:43,220 --> 00:43:47,540
like a almost a family group
like it was just strictly their

684
00:43:47,540 --> 00:43:51,020
family and you get two or three
of those going out there and

685
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:55,700
that gets really really
problematic also because you

686
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:58,820
know who are those people are
going to bury right.

687
00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:03,180
And and so you you get, you get
a lot of those, they're just a

688
00:44:03,180 --> 00:44:06,220
lot of dynamics and I just think
don't think anybody really

689
00:44:06,220 --> 00:44:08,710
thought.
That it would go on this long,

690
00:44:08,910 --> 00:44:11,350
right?
And so it was some real short

691
00:44:11,350 --> 00:44:15,590
term thinking, right?
What sustains you through that,

692
00:44:16,270 --> 00:44:18,430
right?
Because again, you're it sounds

693
00:44:18,430 --> 00:44:21,230
like your whole world got
shattered not once but twice.

694
00:44:21,670 --> 00:44:24,910
What sustains you through that?
Because at some level, I

695
00:44:24,910 --> 00:44:29,230
imagine, at least for me and and
this is going to point back to

696
00:44:29,230 --> 00:44:34,310
my own personal flaws and that
I'm I'm probably a little lazier

697
00:44:34,310 --> 00:44:36,510
than what I'd like to be.
I'd love just sit on the couch

698
00:44:36,510 --> 00:44:38,230
and eat Doritos and play fantasy
football.

699
00:44:38,270 --> 00:44:40,950
That's what I you know, left to
my own devices that's what I

700
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:44,790
did.
But I know for me and seeing

701
00:44:44,790 --> 00:44:47,790
something like that, the LDS
church would start to look a

702
00:44:47,790 --> 00:44:48,950
little appealing.
Right.

703
00:44:48,950 --> 00:44:51,030
Because at least there's
stability there.

704
00:44:51,590 --> 00:44:52,430
Yeah.
What?

705
00:44:52,430 --> 00:44:55,870
So what sustains you and and
sustains your faith through

706
00:44:55,870 --> 00:44:58,750
these two just earth shattering
events?

707
00:45:01,530 --> 00:45:05,530
Yeah, that's a little bit of a,
you know, your complex question

708
00:45:05,530 --> 00:45:09,690
because I'm going through, I'm,
I'm going through the years

709
00:45:09,690 --> 00:45:15,970
those those real formidable
years, the 14 from 14 up to 2122

710
00:45:15,970 --> 00:45:21,770
and I was married at 20.
So there's some real years that

711
00:45:22,250 --> 00:45:23,690
at one time, yes, I actually
did.

712
00:45:23,690 --> 00:45:27,330
I went over to the local ward
there, to the Bishop, and I had

713
00:45:27,330 --> 00:45:30,770
to talk with him because I was,
I was curious, I was just.

714
00:45:31,380 --> 00:45:34,380
I like the social programs we
had.

715
00:45:34,380 --> 00:45:37,420
We had very little social
programs and I wanted to play

716
00:45:37,420 --> 00:45:40,220
football for Granite High School
so bad.

717
00:45:40,220 --> 00:45:46,180
My teeth ate, I just, I wanted
to play football and but we were

718
00:45:46,580 --> 00:45:49,700
we're not a part of the world,
so to speak.

719
00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:53,300
And my dad said, no, no
football, we're not, you're not

720
00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:56,060
going to high school.
And I just wanted so bad to be a

721
00:45:56,060 --> 00:45:59,760
part of something like that.
And so I was looking for a way

722
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:06,480
out if I could, but but I, you
know, I didn't, I didn't go that

723
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,520
direction.
I think primarily because

724
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:13,560
there's something deep inside
that I I absolutely believed and

725
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,840
I want to say it was it was
Joseph Smith because because I

726
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,480
think that was the rock, the the
fundamental testimony that I got

727
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,680
early early on.
When I was 11 years old, I mean

728
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,480
it was just burned in me and I
just was like, I know that this

729
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,000
man is a prophet of God, but
along with that I got a

730
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:41,520
testimony of the fundamentalist
Joseph Smith, not the LDS Joseph

731
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:49,000
Smith, if that makes sense.
I just, but it did because I and

732
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,970
so I never wanted to leave.
I I I was so I'm so absolutely

733
00:46:53,970 --> 00:46:57,330
convinced and believed with
because of that experience that

734
00:46:57,330 --> 00:47:03,170
I had, that Joseph Smith was who
he claimed to be, that it was

735
00:47:03,170 --> 00:47:06,970
probably an anchor to me more
than almost anything else.

736
00:47:06,970 --> 00:47:11,490
I wanted more than anything to
meet him one day, and perhaps

737
00:47:11,490 --> 00:47:15,850
that shaped my thinking in the
sense that I didn't want to meet

738
00:47:15,850 --> 00:47:20,290
him one day and have him say.
You gave up the very thing I

739
00:47:20,290 --> 00:47:24,090
lived and died for, right.
And I was just like I do never

740
00:47:24,090 --> 00:47:29,050
want to be in that place where
where where I got to meet him

741
00:47:29,450 --> 00:47:33,770
and and not say look I I wanted
to fight the same fight you

742
00:47:33,770 --> 00:47:36,450
fought type thing.
That makes sense I know.

743
00:47:36,970 --> 00:47:40,970
And at a young, at a young age I
didn't have a real good

744
00:47:41,130 --> 00:47:43,250
foundation and understanding of
the gospel.

745
00:47:43,250 --> 00:47:47,330
It was growing, but it was, I
think it was probably Joseph

746
00:47:47,330 --> 00:47:50,690
Smith.
And that that probably sustained

747
00:47:50,690 --> 00:47:54,170
me through through some of those
real rough times.

748
00:47:54,530 --> 00:47:57,650
I just, I just wanted to see
him, right.

749
00:47:58,370 --> 00:48:01,690
Well, I look, I don't think
that's and I think there's

750
00:48:01,690 --> 00:48:07,570
wisdom there, Steven.
I think that so many people

751
00:48:07,570 --> 00:48:11,410
when, when because that's the
problem that that I think we're

752
00:48:11,410 --> 00:48:16,040
seeing in Mormonism right now.
LDS even fundamentalism a little

753
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,880
bit less so in fundamentalism
because we tend to hold a little

754
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:26,120
more tenaciously to to history.
But a lot of folks, especially

755
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,320
if they're in the mainstream or
they've never heard of this

756
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,880
stuff before, there definitely
is.

757
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,960
In my estimation right now
there's there's three Joseph

758
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,200
Smiths that get talked about.
There is the LDS version of

759
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,120
Joseph Smith.
There's a fundamentalist version

760
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,040
of Joseph Smith and then there's
the doctrine of Christ movement,

761
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,200
Joseph Smith.
And there are three distinct

762
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,240
people right now.
I can make the case all day long

763
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:53,360
based on history, based on good
scholarship that I believe

764
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,920
Joseph Smith is closer to the
the Joseph Smith most

765
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,240
fundamentalists have come to
know and realize.

766
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:04,240
In the LDS Church, what you have
is you have an LD Joseph Smith

767
00:49:04,780 --> 00:49:11,140
that is very kind of
whitewashed, a little bit I want

768
00:49:11,140 --> 00:49:13,340
to say.
And by whitewashed I mean not

769
00:49:13,340 --> 00:49:16,740
necessarily covering up any of
his flaws or anything, but

770
00:49:16,740 --> 00:49:18,940
whitewashed in the sense of
taking away all the

771
00:49:18,940 --> 00:49:22,700
controversial teachings that
were problematic to to move the

772
00:49:22,700 --> 00:49:27,460
LDS Church into the the the 20th
century, the end and to see what

773
00:49:27,460 --> 00:49:29,580
it became.
So it it's it's a little more

774
00:49:30,020 --> 00:49:33,660
pastel of a Joseph Smith.
And then the doctrine of Christ

775
00:49:33,660 --> 00:49:36,300
is just they're they're way off
base.

776
00:49:36,780 --> 00:49:39,140
I think I've detailed that on
here enough.

777
00:49:39,700 --> 00:49:47,260
But but you there's wisdom there
in the sense of Joseph Smith,

778
00:49:47,260 --> 00:49:52,340
whether we like it or not is
really the litmus test in a lot

779
00:49:52,340 --> 00:49:56,980
of ways for for fundamentalism
and certainly for Mormonism as a

780
00:49:56,980 --> 00:50:00,340
whole because it hangs on his
work, right, right.

781
00:50:00,860 --> 00:50:06,450
It it it those those truths that
he revealed become the the

782
00:50:06,450 --> 00:50:11,050
bedrock and the anchor of what
Mormonism is and so which Joseph

783
00:50:11,050 --> 00:50:16,570
Smith you you you come to
recognize as being historically

784
00:50:16,570 --> 00:50:20,290
accurate and being the true
Joseph Smith and and I want to

785
00:50:20,290 --> 00:50:22,730
make it clear that I don't think
you come to this answer strictly

786
00:50:22,730 --> 00:50:26,090
by scholarship alone.
You have to have a witness of

787
00:50:26,090 --> 00:50:28,770
the spirit.
But if you can anchor it to the

788
00:50:28,770 --> 00:50:33,240
Savior and you can anchor it to
those teachings that Joseph

789
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:37,680
really taught, I think you can
weather almost any storm And and

790
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,600
I'm always interested in those
faith crisis moments because I

791
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,880
think we all have them, right.
We all have them and and seeing

792
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,680
somebody who successfully
navigated those and came out on

793
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:51,920
the other side with testimony
intact if not stronger is is

794
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,600
worth exploring.
So I I I appreciate that.

795
00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:02,880
So as as the Nielsen Nailers
begin, is there a central

796
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,480
gathering spot, I mean what
what's the idea as as the new

797
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,640
group begins to take shape or
are are you are they saying

798
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,520
okay, well let's go South of the
highway now a little bit or

799
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:14,440
something like that?
What?

800
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:16,360
What?
What are some of the talk?

801
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,840
Well, we we there wasn't
primarily the probably the

802
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,140
larger group of of.
That Nelson Nader said that that

803
00:51:25,140 --> 00:51:29,300
time we're probably still in
Salt Lake even though some of us

804
00:51:29,300 --> 00:51:31,180
had moved down to Centennial
Park.

805
00:51:31,180 --> 00:51:33,940
But there was kind of a
separation there.

806
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:39,780
And you know we had a small
group of people in Centennial

807
00:51:39,780 --> 00:51:43,020
Park that was meeting and it
became very awkward as you can

808
00:51:43,020 --> 00:51:49,460
imagine when you've got 2530
people meeting and just quarter

809
00:51:49,460 --> 00:51:52,780
mile down the street there's
three 4-5 hundred are meeting.

810
00:51:53,310 --> 00:51:58,790
And it's really, you know, you
you know, I I, you know, I I

811
00:51:58,790 --> 00:52:02,030
think I get a little bit of the
idea of what it feels like to be

812
00:52:02,030 --> 00:52:03,710
a black kid in a white
neighborhood.

813
00:52:03,830 --> 00:52:07,310
Sure.
Sure.

814
00:52:08,390 --> 00:52:12,670
So, so anyway, you you just, it
just starts to feel a little

815
00:52:12,670 --> 00:52:15,590
really awkward.
And yet a lot of these people,

816
00:52:15,590 --> 00:52:18,230
and I got to say this says a lot
of these people in Centennial

817
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:20,550
Park were just absolutely dear
friends.

818
00:52:20,550 --> 00:52:25,090
They still are to this day.
We get together and and we talk

819
00:52:25,090 --> 00:52:29,330
and and we're more we're both
more secure with maybe where

820
00:52:29,330 --> 00:52:31,570
we're at.
We even talk about some of our

821
00:52:31,570 --> 00:52:35,130
differences at times when and
there's not quite so much the

822
00:52:35,130 --> 00:52:38,010
animosity that's that was there
at one time.

823
00:52:39,130 --> 00:52:42,690
And so I we I can go down there.
I can visit.

824
00:52:42,690 --> 00:52:47,090
I can see people and and they're
and they really are.

825
00:52:47,090 --> 00:52:50,930
There's some really dear friends
to me there's.

826
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,200
There's obviously, you know I
was gifted with a a caustic

827
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,920
tongue which got me into a lot
of trouble at times.

828
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,840
In the middle of those I feel
those heated heated moments

829
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:07,120
where a lot of things get said
and that you're probably would

830
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,880
probably take back today if you
if you had the chance.

831
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:15,240
But but I really have no know
what ill will or animosity to

832
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,920
those people where primarily
there was.

833
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,840
As I see it today, there was a
different understanding of

834
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:28,680
doctrine and perhaps a different
pathway that just didn't feel

835
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,800
like it was consistent with the
pathway that I wanted to go

836
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,520
down.
Absolutely well, and I want to

837
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:37,600
make clear this isn't so.
You're the first in a series I'm

838
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,480
doing on trying to get somebody
on from all the branches of

839
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,390
fundamentalism because I feel
like it's important that that we

840
00:53:45,390 --> 00:53:49,550
learn about each other so we
know where we all come from and

841
00:53:49,550 --> 00:53:51,390
hopefully that fosters some
understanding.

842
00:53:51,390 --> 00:53:54,630
So in no way is this episode or
any of the episodes I'm going to

843
00:53:54,630 --> 00:53:58,030
be doing here meant to kind of
in, pardon the expression, crap

844
00:53:58,030 --> 00:53:59,750
on another church.
That's not it.

845
00:54:00,470 --> 00:54:05,790
I'm genuinely curious.
And then two, I feel like, I

846
00:54:05,790 --> 00:54:09,790
feel like we're in a strange
spot now within Mormonism where

847
00:54:10,310 --> 00:54:12,190
we kind of cannibalize each
other, right.

848
00:54:12,190 --> 00:54:16,390
The LDS Church cannibalizes, we
cannibalize and and others and

849
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:19,230
and it's just infighting and the
whole time we're doing that, the

850
00:54:19,230 --> 00:54:20,950
real enemies at the door kicking
it down.

851
00:54:21,630 --> 00:54:24,950
And so it to a certain extent
I'm like okay, you know what, we

852
00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:28,710
can have our theological minor
differences later and and for

853
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:33,190
the most part, they are minor.
There are some important things,

854
00:54:33,190 --> 00:54:34,790
but by and large I think they're
minor.

855
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:38,430
Let's work together right now to
the the house is on fire.

856
00:54:38,750 --> 00:54:41,430
Let's put out the fire and then
we can talk about who's taking

857
00:54:41,430 --> 00:54:44,270
which room, right.
Yeah and 100%.

858
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:47,830
And so I'm glad you brought that
because I wanted to to get that

859
00:54:47,830 --> 00:54:50,750
out of the way during this time.
What what are you doing?

860
00:54:50,750 --> 00:54:53,150
Are you just working up in
northern Utah with with?

861
00:54:53,190 --> 00:54:57,230
Family, I actually stayed down
after our after we kind of

862
00:54:57,230 --> 00:55:01,630
started to divide and some of
the people had moved away from

863
00:55:01,630 --> 00:55:06,150
Centennial Park, I stayed there.
I stayed there for a few years.

864
00:55:06,150 --> 00:55:09,230
Some of those people that had
separated there actually ended

865
00:55:09,230 --> 00:55:12,670
up moving straight to Missouri
and starting, and that's kind of

866
00:55:12,670 --> 00:55:16,110
when that community kind of got
started out there.

867
00:55:18,180 --> 00:55:22,060
And and then some of us ended up
moving back to Salt Lake and we

868
00:55:22,060 --> 00:55:26,260
were very fractured and very
small, small group of people at

869
00:55:26,260 --> 00:55:28,380
this time.
It was almost down to a few

870
00:55:28,380 --> 00:55:34,580
families and a few few onesie
Tuesdays that were sympathetic

871
00:55:34,580 --> 00:55:39,860
to what was going on.
So we so we moved to Salt Lake.

872
00:55:39,860 --> 00:55:45,420
And my dad, my dad had been set
apart.

873
00:55:45,420 --> 00:55:46,860
He was.
He was one of the leaders.

874
00:55:47,410 --> 00:55:50,770
But he'd also been set up after
this time as a Bishop.

875
00:55:51,170 --> 00:55:55,810
So he was, he was taking care of
a lot of the the Bishop duties

876
00:55:55,810 --> 00:55:58,650
and those kind of
responsibilities down there.

877
00:55:59,370 --> 00:56:04,610
And so when we separated, why
him and Frank Nader senior was

878
00:56:04,890 --> 00:56:08,290
and he was he was one of the men
called him to that council later

879
00:56:08,290 --> 00:56:15,250
on after Alma Timpson, you know.
So he was just like the last man

880
00:56:15,250 --> 00:56:18,860
of that council.
Before, before their current

881
00:56:18,860 --> 00:56:21,660
council that they have in
Centennial Park now there's John

882
00:56:21,660 --> 00:56:25,780
Temps and then Claude Colley and
and some of those men that were

883
00:56:25,780 --> 00:56:28,780
that kind of oversee the
Centennial Park group today.

884
00:56:30,020 --> 00:56:35,260
And so Frank Nader was was
called and and prior to that and

885
00:56:35,300 --> 00:56:38,980
you know there's a lot of you
know a lot of issues and it's

886
00:56:38,980 --> 00:56:41,660
probably where where some of
that division actually happened

887
00:56:41,660 --> 00:56:46,400
was was.
You know was right in the the

888
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:51,160
the calling and the and the
ordination of that new council

889
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,600
maybe not altogether different
than the this kind of situation

890
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,320
that happened with Joseph Musser
and ruling Allred and and those

891
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,360
thirty men that I grew up with.
There was a new council and I

892
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,800
mean there's ruling Allred.
There was, there was the old,

893
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,640
the old council didn't agree
with the new, you know, type

894
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:11,560
thing and it caused some real
issues.

895
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,060
I think it I hate to.
I hate to say, boy, I really

896
00:57:15,060 --> 00:57:17,820
understand this because I'm
still trying to get my head

897
00:57:17,820 --> 00:57:20,420
around how all this stuff
happened psychologically.

898
00:57:21,140 --> 00:57:25,420
So I have tried to reserve some
certain judgments and tried to

899
00:57:25,420 --> 00:57:27,420
just say that was interesting
that happened.

900
00:57:29,220 --> 00:57:33,700
But anyway to to continue on
with the story.

901
00:57:34,660 --> 00:57:38,740
Frank Nader he he was just like
we I'm not I'm not going down

902
00:57:38,740 --> 00:57:41,900
that road with this whole new
deal.

903
00:57:42,460 --> 00:57:45,100
To him it was.
And so when my dad kind of took

904
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:48,140
a stand with him and and so
that's kind of how we kind of

905
00:57:48,740 --> 00:57:50,620
got turned.
The Nielsen and Nader Group, My

906
00:57:50,620 --> 00:57:54,420
dad was the one that actually
set up the legal organization of

907
00:57:54,420 --> 00:57:57,940
the Church of Jesus Christ and
the We call it the Church and

908
00:57:57,940 --> 00:57:59,860
Kingdom of God, the Church and
Kingdom.

909
00:58:00,140 --> 00:58:01,940
Yeah.
And so that's kind of the short

910
00:58:01,940 --> 00:58:05,180
name.
And so he took that entity.

911
00:58:06,980 --> 00:58:09,740
He had set down all the legwork
and the legal work and

912
00:58:09,740 --> 00:58:13,630
everything and and.
And so he just took that

913
00:58:13,630 --> 00:58:16,630
organization with him and that
that literally became our

914
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:21,110
organization as far as a legal,
a legal entity was concerned And

915
00:58:21,110 --> 00:58:25,390
we came to Salt Lake and
eventually most everybody moved

916
00:58:25,390 --> 00:58:30,310
away that was still sympathetic
to that from Centennial Park and

917
00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:33,870
and so forth and then and this.
So this would have been in the

918
00:58:33,910 --> 00:58:40,870
early 90s and and so.
Over a period of time why our

919
00:58:41,070 --> 00:58:48,430
you know we've grown we've grown
it was tell into about the year

920
00:58:48,430 --> 00:58:56,230
2005 we reconnected with some of
the FLDS people that had had a

921
00:58:56,230 --> 00:59:00,910
separation at the time be just
shortly before ruling all I mean

922
00:59:00,910 --> 00:59:05,710
before ruling Jeff's passed away
and Warren was really.

923
00:59:06,670 --> 00:59:10,710
Really hacking off everybody
that that was any kind of a

924
00:59:10,710 --> 00:59:14,150
threat.
Well, Winston Blackmore was part

925
00:59:14,150 --> 00:59:17,870
of that and had a fair amount
following.

926
00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:22,350
And so they kind of cut him off
up in Canada.

927
00:59:22,350 --> 00:59:23,750
And I was going to say they went
to Canada.

928
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:26,990
Yeah, on the heat, that's where
they were from and and so he

929
00:59:26,990 --> 00:59:30,430
they lived up that they had a
big community up there some in

930
00:59:30,430 --> 00:59:33,580
Idaho and then.
Salt Lake and in Colorado City,

931
00:59:33,580 --> 00:59:36,060
but they had pretty much pulled
everybody down into Colorado

932
00:59:36,060 --> 00:59:40,140
City except the Canadians,
primarily because the the border

933
00:59:40,140 --> 00:59:43,780
wouldn't allow it them to
migrate down here.

934
00:59:43,780 --> 00:59:45,660
So they kept that community up
there.

935
00:59:46,060 --> 00:59:48,900
Well, he got cut off and that
took about half the community

936
00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:52,540
with him and the other half
stayed loyal to Warren and

937
00:59:52,780 --> 00:59:57,300
ruling Jeffs.
And so, in about 2005, he

938
00:59:57,300 --> 01:00:01,080
reached out to my dad.
By this time, Frank Nader had

939
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,440
passed away and my dad was in
pretty much in charge of of

940
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,960
everything and Winston had
reached out to my dad and wanted

941
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,880
him to just come on up there and
and just talk about the history

942
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,600
and see if we had something in
common and visit and so forth.

943
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:20,160
And so my dad did.
And so we from that time on

944
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:25,480
we've actually been connected
you know with them in the sense

945
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:27,580
that.
We go up there once a year and

946
01:00:27,580 --> 01:00:29,580
we'll do a conference.
They'll come down and do a

947
01:00:29,580 --> 01:00:33,060
conference down here.
But we kind of stay separate

948
01:00:33,060 --> 01:00:37,180
groups if you will.
It's a real strange dynamics of

949
01:00:37,260 --> 01:00:40,500
of relationship because some of
our children are even

950
01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:45,780
intermarried and yet and yet
Winston still kind of we didn't

951
01:00:46,020 --> 01:00:49,660
we didn't mesh the leadership if
if that makes sense but but the

952
01:00:49,980 --> 01:00:52,580
body of people.
But you granted reciprocity of

953
01:00:52,890 --> 01:00:54,610
quote priesthood.
Yeah.

954
01:00:54,610 --> 01:00:55,570
And authority.
Right.

955
01:00:55,570 --> 01:00:56,410
Yeah.
Exactly.

956
01:00:56,410 --> 01:01:00,330
And and so and again in in in
all of that.

957
01:01:00,330 --> 01:01:02,490
I hate to make it sounds like it
was so cut and dried.

958
01:01:02,490 --> 01:01:05,530
There's always the little
factions inside there that hey

959
01:01:05,570 --> 01:01:08,850
we're going too far or we're not
far enough and all of that.

960
01:01:08,850 --> 01:01:12,730
But primarily the main body of
people we've we've got along

961
01:01:12,730 --> 01:01:17,090
very good together and in a lot
of our children.

962
01:01:17,090 --> 01:01:21,090
I mean I think I've got 3-4 five
of my children that married

963
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:26,000
several that married Winston's
sons and their daughters and so

964
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:30,880
we share grandkids and and so
there's a a real a good working

965
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,880
relationship with the people up
north.

966
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,600
I to me, I I view almost all of
our our own people because I'm

967
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:42,720
not hung up nearly so much on
authority as I used to be.

968
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:44,240
Right.
Right.

969
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:48,280
There's one true authority.
And you know, if if God did

970
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,080
nothing else, he sure shook that
out of me.

971
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:51,800
Yeah, yeah.
No, that I could see.

972
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,360
I could see that.
You know, I've never met anybody

973
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:58,240
from the Blackmore side of
things, but every time I hear

974
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,760
Winston talks, he he seems to be
able to get on TV quite a bit

975
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:05,120
because he has a lot of
knowledge about what happened

976
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,720
down there in Colorado City.
I'm always impressed.

977
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,240
He seems like a great guy.
I mean, seems like a really

978
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,480
great guy.
So yeah.

979
01:02:13,770 --> 01:02:15,410
I don't know if he's listening.
Reach out.

980
01:02:15,410 --> 01:02:18,930
I'd love to talk to you.
But yeah, no, he seems like a

981
01:02:18,930 --> 01:02:23,050
great, great guy.
What was it like?

982
01:02:23,410 --> 01:02:27,290
So you grew up primarily down
South Colorado City area.

983
01:02:27,730 --> 01:02:30,290
What's it like when you come up
north, right, and you come into

984
01:02:30,930 --> 01:02:33,090
bustling Salt Lake?
All is it?

985
01:02:33,250 --> 01:02:36,010
Yeah, I I remember because see,
I'd I'd moved.

986
01:02:36,010 --> 01:02:38,090
Like I said, I'd moved down
there as I was a kid and then I

987
01:02:38,090 --> 01:02:42,100
moved back up and see we didn't
have a television down down

988
01:02:42,100 --> 01:02:43,340
there.
I mean, that's the first time I

989
01:02:43,340 --> 01:02:44,900
ever remember seeing a
television.

990
01:02:45,380 --> 01:02:49,540
We come to Salt Lake and you
know, the $6 million man, you

991
01:02:49,540 --> 01:02:51,580
know, was playing.
Now you remember that old movie

992
01:02:51,700 --> 01:02:55,220
majors and stuff.
And I mean and I just I'm

993
01:02:55,220 --> 01:02:59,220
enthralled with the TV because
we just never had one and and

994
01:02:59,220 --> 01:03:03,620
the big city and as a kid down
down there I mean I I'd walk

995
01:03:03,620 --> 01:03:05,780
anywhere.
I just you know I'm going to go

996
01:03:05,780 --> 01:03:08,700
somewhere down to the Crick
Bottoms and wherever I wanted to

997
01:03:08,700 --> 01:03:10,340
go and play.
And then I moved to the city and

998
01:03:10,340 --> 01:03:14,900
we had a small little lot right
in the in the city surrounded.

999
01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:17,660
It was just it was just by
granite high School and it was

1000
01:03:17,660 --> 01:03:22,380
just not a teeny tiny little lot
where you we got a basketball

1001
01:03:22,380 --> 01:03:25,700
court in the backyard and that
was our entertainment and I

1002
01:03:25,700 --> 01:03:27,980
hated it.
I absolutely hated it.

1003
01:03:28,650 --> 01:03:33,770
And being outspoken like I am, I
I would make these you know, I

1004
01:03:33,770 --> 01:03:38,250
will never know never raise my
kids in a in a play you know in

1005
01:03:38,250 --> 01:03:42,010
the hell hole like this.
Well, God has a sense of humor.

1006
01:03:43,050 --> 01:03:46,050
Many years later I ended out
raising some of my kids in that

1007
01:03:46,050 --> 01:03:51,530
very house that I was raised in.
So he he, he we get it.

1008
01:03:51,610 --> 01:03:54,250
We get it coming around.
He he absolutely has a sense of

1009
01:03:54,250 --> 01:03:56,210
humor.
Yeah, I okay.

1010
01:03:56,620 --> 01:03:59,220
Full disclosure, I complain
about Californians a lot.

1011
01:04:00,780 --> 01:04:04,140
Where did I pluck?
Tanya from California.

1012
01:04:04,140 --> 01:04:05,180
California.
Yeah.

1013
01:04:06,500 --> 01:04:07,460
So.
Yep.

1014
01:04:07,540 --> 01:04:11,740
No, it's it's it's interesting
how he he tends to be like it.

1015
01:04:12,020 --> 01:04:12,860
Yeah.
Yeah.

1016
01:04:13,060 --> 01:04:15,580
No, absolutely.
What kind what kind of

1017
01:04:15,580 --> 01:04:20,100
experiences did you have with
like church membership when when

1018
01:04:20,100 --> 01:04:23,420
you move down here you shared a
story earlier about working on

1019
01:04:23,420 --> 01:04:24,980
Elton Perry's place.
Right.

1020
01:04:25,670 --> 01:04:30,510
This was this was later on when
I got married and and and was

1021
01:04:30,510 --> 01:04:35,270
working.
You know I just some of the the

1022
01:04:35,270 --> 01:04:38,390
Mormon experience.
I mean I actually grew up with a

1023
01:04:38,390 --> 01:04:40,990
fair amount of good feelings
toward.

1024
01:04:40,990 --> 01:04:43,150
I mean we knew people in the
church and.

1025
01:04:43,150 --> 01:04:48,630
And my my dad, my dad ran the
water softener business.

1026
01:04:48,630 --> 01:04:54,500
And you know a funny little
story about that was he he got a

1027
01:04:54,500 --> 01:04:57,420
call and and to fix a water
softener for somebody and it was

1028
01:04:57,420 --> 01:05:00,500
just up on the east side.
And so he pulled in the driveway

1029
01:05:00,500 --> 01:05:03,700
and there was this car there
with the security officer in

1030
01:05:03,700 --> 01:05:05,220
there And he thought, well
that's strange.

1031
01:05:05,220 --> 01:05:07,620
And he pulled in started to get
out and this guy gets out of the

1032
01:05:07,620 --> 01:05:09,140
car and comes over.
What do you need?

1033
01:05:09,140 --> 01:05:12,100
And just then the front door of
the house opens up and Spencer

1034
01:05:12,100 --> 01:05:15,740
Kimball pops his head out there
and just says come on in, come.

1035
01:05:15,860 --> 01:05:18,660
You know, I want this guy to fix
my water softener.

1036
01:05:18,660 --> 01:05:22,220
And so my dad goes in there and
works on his water softener and

1037
01:05:22,220 --> 01:05:26,050
he stands right there with him,
just just chatting with him, you

1038
01:05:26,050 --> 01:05:30,170
know, and and so finally my dad
says, so what's the, what's the

1039
01:05:30,170 --> 01:05:33,890
big black car out there in the
driveway and your security?

1040
01:05:33,890 --> 01:05:36,690
And he just goes, oh, I don't
know, we've had some threats and

1041
01:05:36,690 --> 01:05:39,170
you just never know when one of
these weird plagamist people

1042
01:05:39,170 --> 01:05:46,610
will will make their way so.
You know it's.

1043
01:05:46,970 --> 01:05:49,570
Did your dad say anything?
Yeah, that's the time when you

1044
01:05:49,570 --> 01:05:50,610
be quiet, right?
Right.

1045
01:05:54,170 --> 01:05:58,290
So that's awesome.
But but yeah had you know and

1046
01:05:58,290 --> 01:06:01,370
then you know I I ended out
working in the water softener

1047
01:06:01,370 --> 01:06:05,010
business and that's where I had
run into the church Patriarch

1048
01:06:06,210 --> 01:06:09,290
Eldridge G Smith and of course I
was really green.

1049
01:06:09,290 --> 01:06:12,330
I didn't understand the church
and the way the structure of the

1050
01:06:12,330 --> 01:06:13,810
church.
I didn't know there was the

1051
01:06:13,810 --> 01:06:16,930
church patriarch.
I just I didn't understand that

1052
01:06:16,970 --> 01:06:21,130
that that history very well.
And so I I work on this guy's

1053
01:06:21,130 --> 01:06:24,590
house Smith, and worked on his
water softener and everything.

1054
01:06:24,590 --> 01:06:28,350
When I get done why, he was, he
was a little bit flamboyant, I

1055
01:06:28,350 --> 01:06:30,830
guess.
And he signs this check and he

1056
01:06:30,830 --> 01:06:33,510
hands it to me and he goes, you
recognize that signature?

1057
01:06:34,390 --> 01:06:37,150
And I was like Smith.
Oh, yeah, That's a pretty common

1058
01:06:37,150 --> 01:06:40,350
name in the church, isn't it,
You know, And then he goes,

1059
01:06:41,030 --> 01:06:44,430
that's Eldred G Smith.
I'm patriarch to the church.

1060
01:06:44,590 --> 01:06:46,750
And I said, oh, that's neat.
You're a patriarch in the

1061
01:06:46,750 --> 01:06:51,950
church, huh?
And and then he informed me, I,

1062
01:06:52,070 --> 01:06:56,990
he was the patriarch and and I
start to realize that that Steve

1063
01:06:56,990 --> 01:06:59,310
needs a little education about
some things.

1064
01:07:00,070 --> 01:07:05,670
And then he starts to fill me in
a little bit on stuff and and so

1065
01:07:05,670 --> 01:07:08,590
I start quizzing.
Oh, yes, you're Hiram Smith's

1066
01:07:08,790 --> 01:07:10,670
great, great grandson and so
forth.

1067
01:07:10,670 --> 01:07:12,630
Yeah, you.
And so he takes me down there.

1068
01:07:12,630 --> 01:07:15,510
You want to see his clothing.
And and so it was really

1069
01:07:15,510 --> 01:07:20,430
enjoyable to to to get to know
him a little bit.

1070
01:07:20,850 --> 01:07:23,850
I had to I had to leave.
I did what I had to do in the

1071
01:07:24,130 --> 01:07:26,690
but then there was some problems
so I had to go back on the job.

1072
01:07:26,690 --> 01:07:29,930
This time I came a little
prepared because I found out who

1073
01:07:29,930 --> 01:07:34,490
he was and so that my boss who
was in the church at the time,

1074
01:07:35,290 --> 01:07:38,930
says ask him why he doesn't sit
up with the general authorities

1075
01:07:38,930 --> 01:07:42,410
anymore, why they removed him.
He says, I think he's living

1076
01:07:42,410 --> 01:07:48,870
plural marriage and and so and
so when I got back there to fixy

1077
01:07:48,870 --> 01:07:51,790
softener to go back the second
time to do some work on there, I

1078
01:07:51,790 --> 01:07:54,990
asked him, I just says, so why
don't you sit up there with the

1079
01:07:54,990 --> 01:07:59,230
general authorities anymore.
And he just kind of, he was a

1080
01:07:59,230 --> 01:08:00,950
little sharp, He could get a
little sharp with you.

1081
01:08:00,950 --> 01:08:02,150
And he goes, what do you know
about it?

1082
01:08:03,390 --> 01:08:06,070
And I was just like well, I just
noticed that you don't sit up

1083
01:08:06,070 --> 01:08:07,590
with the general authorities
anymore.

1084
01:08:08,190 --> 01:08:11,900
He goes they think I'm going
senile and he says they're

1085
01:08:12,020 --> 01:08:15,300
they're doing away with the with
the position of church patriarch

1086
01:08:15,300 --> 01:08:18,500
which they did which they did
and and later end up reading

1087
01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:22,460
that book lost Legacy with it
written by his son Gary Smith

1088
01:08:23,220 --> 01:08:25,620
and helped me understand that
whole history.

1089
01:08:26,100 --> 01:08:28,939
But it was fun to get to know to
at least in that short little

1090
01:08:28,939 --> 01:08:31,020
moment get to know him.
He showed me some original

1091
01:08:31,020 --> 01:08:34,420
paintings and hire him and and
and stuff.

1092
01:08:34,420 --> 01:08:37,819
So we had that little
interaction and then of course

1093
01:08:37,819 --> 01:08:43,420
later on I I ended out to
getting into the Cabinetry

1094
01:08:43,420 --> 01:08:48,460
business and and end up working
in L Tom Perry's place.

1095
01:08:48,620 --> 01:08:51,939
Before we go there, was there
any indication that you ever saw

1096
01:08:51,939 --> 01:08:56,220
that maybe Elden Smith was
living plural marriage?

1097
01:08:57,140 --> 01:09:03,899
You know, it was something, you
know, I yeah, well, I tell

1098
01:09:03,899 --> 01:09:06,300
everybody I'm a recovering
conspiratorialist.

1099
01:09:06,990 --> 01:09:10,510
And so I believe lots of little
weird stories every once in a

1100
01:09:10,510 --> 01:09:15,790
while, you know, And so I
somebody, they said that.

1101
01:09:15,790 --> 01:09:17,310
But he made a little comment to
me.

1102
01:09:17,310 --> 01:09:20,390
He says, hey, I got another
house across town that the water

1103
01:09:20,390 --> 01:09:23,229
softener's not working in.
He just said, would you be able

1104
01:09:23,229 --> 01:09:25,790
to go over there and and fix
that softener too?

1105
01:09:26,310 --> 01:09:29,270
And I oh, yeah, absolutely.
I'll, I can do that.

1106
01:09:29,790 --> 01:09:32,590
But he ended out so one of the
other guys from the company

1107
01:09:32,590 --> 01:09:35,899
ended out going there.
So I never got to follow that

1108
01:09:35,899 --> 01:09:39,180
out, but some had suggested that
but.

1109
01:09:39,580 --> 01:09:42,100
You never saw any.
I never saw anything.

1110
01:09:42,100 --> 01:09:46,100
And there was probably more of
the fundamentalist history that

1111
01:09:46,100 --> 01:09:49,260
I really wanted to ask him
about, but I didn't understand

1112
01:09:49,260 --> 01:09:51,740
it at the time.
But see, there was this.

1113
01:09:51,740 --> 01:09:55,380
There was that old
fundamentalist story, that of

1114
01:09:55,380 --> 01:10:00,980
Lauren Wooley, that that when
Eldred Smith's father died.

1115
01:10:02,060 --> 01:10:05,560
See, there was a.
It was a 15 year gap, but I want

1116
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:10,480
to say that Heber Jay Grant
passed that church patriarch

1117
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,080
authority to different men.
He didn't want to pass it on to

1118
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:18,640
Eldred Smith.
And there was an old

1119
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:22,920
fundamentalist story that was
that was that Lauren Wooley says

1120
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:26,040
that they were holding that in
trust till the rightful heir,

1121
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,480
that it could be given to the
rightful heir, which would have

1122
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:32,440
been Eldred G Smith.
And.

1123
01:10:33,550 --> 01:10:41,030
And so later on, later on, you
know, they they did eventually

1124
01:10:41,430 --> 01:10:44,510
pass that on to him.
But I always wanted to ask him

1125
01:10:45,550 --> 01:10:48,310
because there came a time when
Lauren Wooley told those, that

1126
01:10:48,310 --> 01:10:51,950
early council of Brethren, I
passed that authority on to the

1127
01:10:51,950 --> 01:10:54,350
rightful heir.
Now he didn't say it was Eldred

1128
01:10:54,350 --> 01:10:58,070
G Smith, but he just says I've
passed that authority now, held

1129
01:10:58,070 --> 01:11:02,390
it in trust and now I've passed
it back on to the rightful heir.

1130
01:11:03,100 --> 01:11:06,220
And I always wanted to ask him,
you know, did Lord Movie ever

1131
01:11:06,220 --> 01:11:11,140
come to you and claim something?
But I I didn't know that history

1132
01:11:11,140 --> 01:11:14,100
in the in you know or or those
stories.

1133
01:11:14,100 --> 01:11:16,860
I hate to say it's history
because it may just be in a

1134
01:11:16,860 --> 01:11:19,140
story, right?
But I did want to.

1135
01:11:19,620 --> 01:11:21,580
I I would have loved to have
asked him that question.

1136
01:11:21,580 --> 01:11:25,340
I am fascinated with post
manifesto plural marriage within

1137
01:11:25,340 --> 01:11:28,140
the LDS Church because it's not
a clean break.

1138
01:11:28,660 --> 01:11:32,780
I mean, I had a gentleman on
this podcast not too long ago.

1139
01:11:33,150 --> 01:11:36,070
That told the story and even
gave names and I went and fact

1140
01:11:36,070 --> 01:11:40,830
checked it where David O McKay
was still sending people up to

1141
01:11:40,830 --> 01:11:44,910
talk to other men about
fundamentalism when men start

1142
01:11:44,910 --> 01:11:47,070
asking about it, right?
Plural marriage, that sort of

1143
01:11:47,070 --> 01:11:50,030
stuff.
So I I find it's not a clean

1144
01:11:50,030 --> 01:11:52,590
break and there's a lot of
winking and nodding going on

1145
01:11:53,470 --> 01:11:57,110
from one side to the other.
But so Tom L Tom Perry.

1146
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,320
So I I was able to do a little
bit of you know I didn't really

1147
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:04,400
didn't know who this man was.
I mean because I just got a

1148
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:08,640
little job and it said Perry on
the on the job order.

1149
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:11,320
So I I went up there and to
measure up for some cabinets and

1150
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:15,200
figure out what I needed and and
so for that no idea who this

1151
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:19,120
this Perry man was that that I
was going to and I and he wasn't

1152
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:20,920
there.
His wife Barbara was there and

1153
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:23,760
and so I measured up what I
needed to and then I needed to

1154
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,600
use the phone.
So they let me into his office.

1155
01:12:28,790 --> 01:12:31,510
Still didn't know who he was.
But I sat down these office desk

1156
01:12:31,510 --> 01:12:33,910
there chair and kind of wheeled
around and looked up at these

1157
01:12:33,910 --> 01:12:37,390
bookcase and there's just a
fascinating set of books all

1158
01:12:37,390 --> 01:12:41,270
leather bound additions of every
Mormon book you could think of.

1159
01:12:41,270 --> 01:12:45,630
And I was like I was a book nut.
So I just I was fascinated by

1160
01:12:45,630 --> 01:12:50,310
this and so I I looked at those
books and I thought wow this

1161
01:12:50,310 --> 01:12:53,710
isn't this is just really
something you know and then I

1162
01:12:53,950 --> 01:12:56,910
turned my debt my chair over to
the desk and right there on the

1163
01:12:56,910 --> 01:13:01,630
on the on the desk was a was a
paper and it was minutes of the

1164
01:13:01,630 --> 01:13:05,910
quorum of the 12 apostles
meeting in the Salt Lake temple.

1165
01:13:06,470 --> 01:13:11,230
And I just boy my eyes got big
as saucers and I was like who

1166
01:13:11,230 --> 01:13:15,310
the heck is this guy that he's
got minutes to the 12 apostles

1167
01:13:15,310 --> 01:13:20,150
meetings on his desk.
And anyway but then I end up

1168
01:13:20,150 --> 01:13:25,460
finding it was El Tom Perry and
and and subsequently there I I

1169
01:13:25,460 --> 01:13:28,460
actually met him.
He was very kind, very, very

1170
01:13:28,460 --> 01:13:31,140
much a gentleman in every sense
of the word.

1171
01:13:31,500 --> 01:13:34,100
Very respectful to his wife, to
me.

1172
01:13:35,820 --> 01:13:39,060
Thought a thought.
A lot of of him in the two or

1173
01:13:39,060 --> 01:13:42,180
three weeks that I worked in his
house and even to the point

1174
01:13:42,180 --> 01:13:46,180
where he, when he had to go out
of town he he had to be the keys

1175
01:13:46,180 --> 01:13:52,150
to his apartment and trusted me
to just, you know whatever you

1176
01:13:52,150 --> 01:13:55,430
need just just lock it up and
and I'll get the key from you

1177
01:13:55,430 --> 01:13:59,230
when you're done.
Completely trusted me in this

1178
01:13:59,230 --> 01:14:01,630
house and at that time he knew.
He knew I was.

1179
01:14:01,990 --> 01:14:05,030
I was a Blake kid, you know.
And that was, everybody said a

1180
01:14:05,030 --> 01:14:07,470
lot to me about him.
About his character, about his

1181
01:14:07,470 --> 01:14:11,190
character that he was willing to
just to trust somebody like

1182
01:14:11,190 --> 01:14:12,630
that.
He was very frugal.

1183
01:14:12,870 --> 01:14:17,550
I didn't see any sort of
strangeness about him in that

1184
01:14:17,550 --> 01:14:19,870
little bit that I knew him.
So it was it was fun to get to

1185
01:14:19,870 --> 01:14:24,320
know people in the in the
little, some of the higher ups

1186
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:26,600
in the in the Mormon Church like
that.

1187
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:30,080
That's awesome.
So we we've kind of covered up

1188
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:34,800
to this point kind of your
background on you know what it

1189
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:38,840
was like growing up in it down
there in Colorado City in that

1190
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:41,240
area and we've covered the
splits and we've talked a little

1191
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:45,080
bit about even about your own
personal testimony I want to get

1192
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:50,730
into to now kind of.
The, the inner, I shouldn't say

1193
01:14:50,730 --> 01:14:53,970
the inner workings some of the
some of the ways that the

1194
01:14:53,970 --> 01:14:57,450
Nielsen Naylors live the gospel
so to speak, right from, from a

1195
01:14:57,450 --> 01:15:01,970
church standpoint, you mentioned
the Blackmores and you mentioned

1196
01:15:01,970 --> 01:15:05,490
Centennial Park that you guys
are are still kind of close,

1197
01:15:05,610 --> 01:15:07,370
right.
Even though there's there's a

1198
01:15:07,370 --> 01:15:10,610
split there.
How does it work being

1199
01:15:10,610 --> 01:15:12,730
associated with those other
fundamentalist groups?

1200
01:15:13,170 --> 01:15:14,890
How do you navigate those
differences?

1201
01:15:15,090 --> 01:15:20,760
Yeah that's that's really it's
it's it is interesting and you

1202
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:24,080
know as you can only imagine
there's there does have to be a

1203
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:32,000
lot of charity and and really
for me, I guess the biggest

1204
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,840
thing I had to do is I had to
come to a place where I just had

1205
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:39,240
to realize that I just don't
know it all and you know that's

1206
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:40,560
painful.
It is painful.

1207
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,400
Painful to to a guy that that
perhaps thinks he does.

1208
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:51,140
But and so I had to say, you
know there's a lot of things I

1209
01:15:51,140 --> 01:15:55,380
just don't understand and even
some of the history that perhaps

1210
01:15:56,420 --> 01:15:58,860
has even been told to me.
A little bit biased

1211
01:16:00,180 --> 01:16:04,540
illustration.
I had a chance one time to with

1212
01:16:04,540 --> 01:16:09,300
my fatherinlaw to go visit Owen
Allred before he passed away and

1213
01:16:10,140 --> 01:16:12,820
we were we were there and they
had five or six men there and I

1214
01:16:12,820 --> 01:16:15,580
didn't know who any of these men
were but we had a quite a long

1215
01:16:15,580 --> 01:16:20,100
visit with him and part of his
part of his conversation with

1216
01:16:20,100 --> 01:16:24,700
this he really wanted to to get
us our group to join up with

1217
01:16:24,700 --> 01:16:28,780
their group kind of let's solve
our differences let's let's get

1218
01:16:28,780 --> 01:16:31,700
together.
And I just simply told him well

1219
01:16:31,900 --> 01:16:34,700
who's who's version of the
history are we going to tell

1220
01:16:34,940 --> 01:16:39,860
then And of course we just did
just never went anywhere.

1221
01:16:39,940 --> 01:16:42,540
But after we got done with the
meeting, where were two of the

1222
01:16:42,540 --> 01:16:47,110
men that took me home?
They drove me back to my house,

1223
01:16:47,110 --> 01:16:52,750
was Des Moines Jensen and Lynn
Thompson, who would later become

1224
01:16:52,750 --> 01:16:55,150
the next two leaders of this
group.

1225
01:16:55,150 --> 01:16:59,870
So as we were there, they
started telling me some of the

1226
01:16:59,870 --> 01:17:05,070
stories of of our group of
people and some of the the just

1227
01:17:05,070 --> 01:17:08,710
the nasty, ugly stuff that you
know.

1228
01:17:08,710 --> 01:17:12,110
And well, I had heard all the
kind of the nasty, ugly stories

1229
01:17:12,110 --> 01:17:16,620
about them and and when they
finally got done with these

1230
01:17:16,620 --> 01:17:19,220
things, I I kind of said, I said
oh that's interesting.

1231
01:17:19,220 --> 01:17:21,300
I didn't realize you was old
enough to remember that.

1232
01:17:22,580 --> 01:17:24,860
And of course then they they
said oh whoa, whoa, whoa, we we

1233
01:17:25,780 --> 01:17:28,020
we weren't we weren't around for
that.

1234
01:17:28,020 --> 01:17:32,420
But that's what got told to us.
And I said and I got told a

1235
01:17:32,420 --> 01:17:38,140
different set of stories and I
just said so neither one of us

1236
01:17:38,140 --> 01:17:41,860
were there and neither one of us
really know what happened.

1237
01:17:42,660 --> 01:17:47,060
All we have is the stories that
and try to navigate through some

1238
01:17:47,060 --> 01:17:48,900
of those things and try to make
sense out of them.

1239
01:17:48,900 --> 01:17:51,780
So I said makes a lot of sense
to me.

1240
01:17:51,780 --> 01:17:55,380
If maybe we would stop fighting
each other and just maybe turn

1241
01:17:55,380 --> 01:17:57,260
outward and start fighting the
real enemy.

1242
01:17:58,140 --> 01:18:03,660
And of course that's easy to say
but it's tough when it comes

1243
01:18:03,660 --> 01:18:09,020
right down to who's right and
and these these things, these

1244
01:18:09,020 --> 01:18:11,980
things are very difficult.
They're very difficult to to

1245
01:18:11,980 --> 01:18:16,580
navigate through and and when
you have, when you have a little

1246
01:18:16,580 --> 01:18:21,340
bit more ability to align with
people that again I think anyway

1247
01:18:21,340 --> 01:18:25,140
when you you don't have a real
solid established group of

1248
01:18:25,140 --> 01:18:29,220
people that have created a
certain doctrine that that has

1249
01:18:29,220 --> 01:18:32,980
almost become their identity.
It's a lot easier to navigate

1250
01:18:32,980 --> 01:18:36,540
through some of these things
with with the, you know, the

1251
01:18:36,700 --> 01:18:40,340
some of our friends up north
with Winston and and some of

1252
01:18:40,340 --> 01:18:43,920
those up north there people are
willing to just say hey, you

1253
01:18:44,440 --> 01:18:48,680
know what, we we don't know
everything that happened and

1254
01:18:48,680 --> 01:18:51,760
maybe it wasn't quite what we
thought it was and maybe you

1255
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:55,600
guys weren't as bad as we
remembered and maybe you know

1256
01:18:56,040 --> 01:18:58,440
that kind of a thing.
And so you, you start to soften

1257
01:18:58,440 --> 01:19:00,640
up on some of those things and
you start to look for the

1258
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:04,640
common, the common elements that
you actually do have with each

1259
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:09,440
other and and kind of just
agreed to disagree on parts that

1260
01:19:09,440 --> 01:19:13,690
you just can't get past.
You know, and and, and here's

1261
01:19:13,690 --> 01:19:17,090
the other thing, and, and this
is the part that drives me nuts,

1262
01:19:17,090 --> 01:19:20,250
and I like to call it that, the
Hatfield and McCoy Syndrome,

1263
01:19:20,890 --> 01:19:23,170
right?
Because let's face it, none of

1264
01:19:23,170 --> 01:19:27,690
us alive today witnessed the
split, the the two different

1265
01:19:27,690 --> 01:19:31,090
councils that monster set up,
the one down South and the one

1266
01:19:31,090 --> 01:19:33,650
up north here.
None of us were alive for that.

1267
01:19:35,890 --> 01:19:39,370
At what point do we stop
inheriting other people's

1268
01:19:39,370 --> 01:19:41,570
slights?
And I'm going to say something

1269
01:19:41,570 --> 01:19:42,810
here.
Now that might be kind of

1270
01:19:42,810 --> 01:19:47,050
pointed in a little way and and
make ruffle some feathers, but

1271
01:19:47,730 --> 01:19:49,490
you knew what you were signing
up for when you started

1272
01:19:49,490 --> 01:19:55,530
listening.
If we really believe that men

1273
01:19:55,530 --> 01:19:58,370
will be punished for their own
sins and not Adams

1274
01:19:58,370 --> 01:20:02,810
transgression, then maybe we
should start extending some

1275
01:20:02,810 --> 01:20:05,650
grace to some folks in different
groups.

1276
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:08,960
And understand they are not
their ancestors.

1277
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:12,640
Even if you think that your
ancestors were completely

1278
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:18,960
innocent in the whole thing,
which 12:50, I'm willing.

1279
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:22,800
You know, I'm willing to bet
that your ancestor has someone

1280
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:24,800
on his shirt too.
But let's just say he was

1281
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:28,840
completely spotless through this
whole thing.

1282
01:20:31,250 --> 01:20:32,970
They're different people now,
right?

1283
01:20:33,050 --> 01:20:36,290
We're different people.
Let's not thrust somebody else's

1284
01:20:36,290 --> 01:20:39,970
transgression onto their kids or
grandkids because I don't see

1285
01:20:39,970 --> 01:20:43,250
that fitting anywhere within
this gospel narrative that

1286
01:20:43,250 --> 01:20:48,610
Joseph revealed.
Now, if if you know, you keep

1287
01:20:48,610 --> 01:20:49,690
your separate groups, that's
great.

1288
01:20:49,690 --> 01:20:51,890
We can hug that out.
That's, that's okay, There's

1289
01:20:51,890 --> 01:20:55,130
nothing, nothing there.
But let's, I like what you said

1290
01:20:55,130 --> 01:20:57,010
there.
Let's let's just extend some

1291
01:20:57,010 --> 01:21:01,380
grace and some charity and work
together where we can because

1292
01:21:01,420 --> 01:21:04,340
like you said, we're busy
fighting amongst each other and

1293
01:21:04,340 --> 01:21:07,260
somebody else that's far worse
is kicking down our door.

1294
01:21:07,700 --> 01:21:11,380
Yeah, absolutely.
And and if the only thing we can

1295
01:21:11,380 --> 01:21:15,020
do is just be honest enough to
just say, you know, maybe

1296
01:21:15,020 --> 01:21:18,820
there's part of this history
that I don't know about, even if

1297
01:21:18,820 --> 01:21:22,580
that's even if that's all that
we could do to find some common

1298
01:21:22,580 --> 01:21:26,580
ground to just say there is
always two sides to every story.

1299
01:21:27,270 --> 01:21:30,830
And maybe I shouldn't be quite
so sure that I'm that I

1300
01:21:30,830 --> 01:21:34,070
absolutely know my side of this
story or the side that I've been

1301
01:21:34,070 --> 01:21:40,230
told is indeed fact, and maybe
maybe there's more to this story

1302
01:21:40,630 --> 01:21:42,950
and just opening that
possibility.

1303
01:21:43,550 --> 01:21:46,910
I know that terrifies some
people because it puts them on

1304
01:21:46,910 --> 01:21:51,350
very shaky ground, but for me it
actually put me on far more

1305
01:21:51,350 --> 01:21:55,510
stable ground because I felt
like it was more on on the basis

1306
01:21:55,510 --> 01:21:59,460
of truth.
I didn't have to try to decide

1307
01:21:59,460 --> 01:22:02,500
who I was supposed to hate, who
I supposed to associate with,

1308
01:22:02,700 --> 01:22:06,460
who was apostate, who wasn't,
who God loved, who he didn't

1309
01:22:06,460 --> 01:22:08,300
love.
And I could just say, you know

1310
01:22:08,300 --> 01:22:09,020
what?
I don't know.

1311
01:22:09,300 --> 01:22:12,260
I don't know what God is doing.
But I do know one thing.

1312
01:22:13,460 --> 01:22:15,420
It's a hell of a lot bigger than
us.

1313
01:22:15,460 --> 01:22:19,820
Yes, exactly, exactly.
We tend to get because we're

1314
01:22:19,820 --> 01:22:23,140
humans, and I've discovered that
humanity has a way of becoming

1315
01:22:23,140 --> 01:22:26,180
myopic, right?
It only sees what's in front of

1316
01:22:26,180 --> 01:22:31,960
his face that we'll never see
the the the forest from the

1317
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:35,480
trees so to speak on because of
of of mortality.

1318
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:40,920
However, that doesn't mean we
shouldn't strive to see the

1319
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:46,640
bigger picture And and sometimes
it takes being shaken from your

1320
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:50,960
apathy and you know the status
quo to help you realize that,

1321
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:54,360
right.
And and I think that's probably

1322
01:22:54,660 --> 01:22:57,900
probably part of the genius I
see in in some of the

1323
01:22:57,900 --> 01:23:01,700
conversation that we've had here
and over the phone was I would

1324
01:23:01,700 --> 01:23:04,620
dare to say it's it's because of
the split that you witnessed

1325
01:23:04,620 --> 01:23:08,420
twice over that probably brought
you to that at some point you

1326
01:23:08,420 --> 01:23:11,700
know understanding how those
things can can manifest.

1327
01:23:12,180 --> 01:23:18,420
Well, and and one thing also
that that that has been has

1328
01:23:18,420 --> 01:23:22,220
really has really changed my
thinking I guess.

1329
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:28,040
Is when you you live enough
years you start to see the the

1330
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:32,320
results and the consequences of
certain actions and you start

1331
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:38,240
seeing how those things play out
and you know when and I'll tell

1332
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:42,000
a little funny story that that
got told to me and and but this

1333
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:46,360
is just classic fundamentalists
and there's this little story

1334
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:50,520
was was gal goes down to BYU
there and she's.

1335
01:23:50,930 --> 01:23:53,130
Down the hallway and she sees
this little sign that says, you

1336
01:23:53,130 --> 01:23:57,130
know, cruise for 100 bucks.
And she's like, wow, I always

1337
01:23:57,130 --> 01:24:00,410
wanted to take a cruise.
So she steps inside that doorway

1338
01:24:00,410 --> 01:24:04,410
and and she's like cruise for
100 bucks.

1339
01:24:04,410 --> 01:24:06,010
And they say, yeah, yeah, we'll
do that.

1340
01:24:06,010 --> 01:24:08,970
And here's my 100 bucks.
And while they come behind her,

1341
01:24:08,970 --> 01:24:11,410
they little bat walk her on the
head, down she goes.

1342
01:24:11,570 --> 01:24:14,410
They stick her on a little raft
and push her out behind the the

1343
01:24:14,410 --> 01:24:16,890
campus there on one of the
little ponds, and she's just out

1344
01:24:16,890 --> 01:24:20,330
floating out there.
And she kind of comes too and

1345
01:24:20,330 --> 01:24:22,970
she's looking around, she see
somebody else out on a raft.

1346
01:24:22,970 --> 01:24:27,050
And so she paddles over there to
that other raft and and this

1347
01:24:27,050 --> 01:24:30,490
other gals out on this raft and
she's like, man, do you think

1348
01:24:30,490 --> 01:24:32,090
they serve drinks on this
cruise?

1349
01:24:32,930 --> 01:24:34,690
And the gal goes, well, they
didn't last year.

1350
01:24:38,770 --> 01:24:43,290
So sometimes we're just really
slow learners, right.

1351
01:24:43,290 --> 01:24:46,250
And this is one of the things
that that I've watched in

1352
01:24:46,410 --> 01:24:49,520
fundamentalism.
That's that's been very

1353
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:53,680
interesting to me.
We keep going down the same Rd.

1354
01:24:54,280 --> 01:24:56,440
yeah.
And then wonder why?

1355
01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:58,240
Why aren't we getting different
results?

1356
01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:00,600
And people will start to say,
well, let's get different people

1357
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:02,800
in charge.
It's with the IT was the people.

1358
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:06,160
There's people in the FLDS that
believe the whole problem that

1359
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:07,840
happened down there was Warren
Jeffs.

1360
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:13,200
And I go, no, no, he was, he was
a part of it.

1361
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:16,720
He was a willing participant in
a much bigger game.

1362
01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:20,720
That was being played right?
Is one man a a tyrant because

1363
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:24,200
many men are slaves, or many men
slaves because one man's a

1364
01:25:24,200 --> 01:25:26,120
tyrant?
Which one is it right?

1365
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:28,520
And you're like you know what
they're working.

1366
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:33,920
They're working together in this
story and and you so you watch

1367
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:38,000
that thing play out.
You watch that thing play out

1368
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:41,280
and you start to ask some
questions and this is kind of

1369
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:45,660
what, where, where we.
Kind of evolved to you start

1370
01:25:45,660 --> 01:25:50,300
seeing some of the problems that
that happened in the in the

1371
01:25:50,340 --> 01:25:54,500
fundamentalist movements and you
start asking a different set of

1372
01:25:54,500 --> 01:25:59,100
questions like what could have
been done different, why, why

1373
01:25:59,100 --> 01:26:00,340
did we have to go down that
room?

1374
01:26:00,340 --> 01:26:02,780
Why do we have to divide every
time there's a problem.

1375
01:26:03,860 --> 01:26:08,340
Now I believe this is just, I
believe by studying the history

1376
01:26:08,340 --> 01:26:12,780
a little bit, I don't believe
that they ever thought.

1377
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:18,000
That it would go this long, no.
I mean, Wilfred Woodruff, when

1378
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:20,080
he signed, even signed that
manifesto.

1379
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:22,160
He didn't think it was going to
go.

1380
01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:27,080
But a few years you know you are
100% correct.

1381
01:26:27,080 --> 01:26:30,160
And and and if you if you were
an old man and thought, okay,

1382
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:32,760
this all going to be over in a
few years, you would make a

1383
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:37,480
shortterm decision even if it
but if if he had been told 100

1384
01:26:37,480 --> 01:26:43,670
and she's 130. 130 years is
going to go by and it still

1385
01:26:43,670 --> 01:26:46,870
won't be done.
Wilford Woodruff might have made

1386
01:26:46,870 --> 01:26:48,190
a different decision.
Yep.

1387
01:26:48,190 --> 01:26:50,150
Now, I don't know.
But.

1388
01:26:50,270 --> 01:26:54,030
But Lauren Wooley said this
thing wouldn't go beyond 1935.

1389
01:26:55,150 --> 01:26:57,950
Lauren Wooley didn't.
I mean, Joseph Musser was

1390
01:26:57,950 --> 01:27:02,350
absolutely convinced that this
would be over by the 50s and 60s

1391
01:27:03,430 --> 01:27:06,950
and the man that I knew says we
would be done and in the

1392
01:27:06,950 --> 01:27:11,030
Millennium by the year 2000.
And here we are, 2023.

1393
01:27:11,490 --> 01:27:15,850
And it's not done.
And and we keep making the

1394
01:27:15,850 --> 01:27:19,850
shortterm decisions as I see it
and I've got to qualify that as

1395
01:27:19,850 --> 01:27:21,770
I see it.
We keep making the shortterm

1396
01:27:21,770 --> 01:27:25,890
decisions to try to buy us a
little time till somebody a hell

1397
01:27:25,890 --> 01:27:28,090
of a lot smarter than us can
come and set these things

1398
01:27:28,090 --> 01:27:31,050
straight and get us to back
together again and stop

1399
01:27:31,050 --> 01:27:36,050
fighting.
Now, to me it makes sense that

1400
01:27:36,050 --> 01:27:38,330
you would start to address the
problems.

1401
01:27:39,010 --> 01:27:44,490
And stop worrying about what's
God's business, which I I term

1402
01:27:44,490 --> 01:27:47,970
if the one mighty and strong or
whoever's coming to set stuff

1403
01:27:47,970 --> 01:27:50,410
straight here.
I say, well that's God's

1404
01:27:50,410 --> 01:27:53,490
business.
That's my business is to do to

1405
01:27:53,490 --> 01:27:57,290
take care of my work.
So you start asking for us.

1406
01:27:57,290 --> 01:28:01,210
We started asking some
questions, saying, you know, how

1407
01:28:01,210 --> 01:28:06,930
much of this stuff was really
intended to be and really when.

1408
01:28:06,930 --> 01:28:10,250
Lauren Wooley.
First started, you know, trying

1409
01:28:10,250 --> 01:28:12,290
to keep these things.
They were primarily all in the

1410
01:28:12,290 --> 01:28:14,810
church.
I mean, they were working in the

1411
01:28:14,810 --> 01:28:19,050
church and and so when he tells
them, you know what, don't pay

1412
01:28:19,050 --> 01:28:24,570
me tithing, Don't go start
meetings, don't colonize and and

1413
01:28:24,570 --> 01:28:27,330
and and congregate together.
Go to the church.

1414
01:28:27,570 --> 01:28:30,650
Pay your tithing to the church.
We're not creating a new church.

1415
01:28:30,970 --> 01:28:34,170
We're keeping alive these
certain principles that the

1416
01:28:34,170 --> 01:28:38,610
Church is giving up.
And this thing evolved over time

1417
01:28:38,610 --> 01:28:41,970
and what pretty soon Joseph
Muster and John Wybarlow and

1418
01:28:41,970 --> 01:28:46,050
some of those men they were in a
different day and and you know

1419
01:28:46,050 --> 01:28:50,010
when the church is using funds
that they're paying to help

1420
01:28:50,370 --> 01:28:54,010
persecute the fundamentalist
people, that that might be news

1421
01:28:54,010 --> 01:28:58,010
to some but but and they says,
well why are we paying tithing

1422
01:28:58,290 --> 01:29:01,890
why don't we pay it to our own
group of people to help our own

1423
01:29:01,890 --> 01:29:05,010
poor and needy.
And so you see an evolution

1424
01:29:05,210 --> 01:29:09,120
start to happen.
But one fundamental problem I

1425
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:13,440
think, has happened with the
fundamentalist people from that

1426
01:29:13,440 --> 01:29:20,920
date to this A church evolved
without the checks and balances

1427
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:24,400
that God set up in the Doctrine
and Covenants about the how a

1428
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:29,120
church should run, right?
And so how do you deal with any?

1429
01:29:29,870 --> 01:29:32,910
Nut job that wants to stand up
and say he's, he's the neat

1430
01:29:32,910 --> 01:29:34,670
leader.
I mean how do you deal with the

1431
01:29:34,670 --> 01:29:37,030
Warren Jeffs?
Because I think, I think it's

1432
01:29:37,030 --> 01:29:40,350
spelled out very well than the
doctor in Covenants.

1433
01:29:40,710 --> 01:29:45,390
People knew about Warren's
problems years and years ago and

1434
01:29:45,390 --> 01:29:49,590
think of the disservice that it
did to him and to the people

1435
01:29:49,790 --> 01:29:53,030
later on.
Because you think, I mean this

1436
01:29:53,030 --> 01:29:57,470
could have been addressed early
on and helped him.

1437
01:29:59,070 --> 01:30:03,950
And perhaps alleviated a heck of
a lot of suffering and misery

1438
01:30:04,590 --> 01:30:05,950
that the people have gone
through.

1439
01:30:06,230 --> 01:30:10,950
Now, I don't know what what that
might would say, but I do know

1440
01:30:10,950 --> 01:30:14,630
that when the Lord speaks in the
Doctrine of Covenants and he

1441
01:30:14,630 --> 01:30:18,590
lays out the way his Church
should operate, I think we ought

1442
01:30:18,590 --> 01:30:21,670
to consider that before we just
dismiss it and say, oh, that

1443
01:30:21,670 --> 01:30:23,830
belongs to the Church.
We're the priesthood.

1444
01:30:24,510 --> 01:30:27,710
That doesn't apply to us, right?
No, I I think you're right.

1445
01:30:28,100 --> 01:30:31,700
There's so many things that you
just said there that that kind

1446
01:30:31,700 --> 01:30:36,220
of resonated with me in that
episode I just did with mustard.

1447
01:30:36,220 --> 01:30:39,300
Those two episodes, one of the
things that I found fascinating

1448
01:30:39,820 --> 01:30:42,740
was that you are correct.
They all thought that it was

1449
01:30:42,740 --> 01:30:47,260
going to be over quickly, that
that this manifesto thing was,

1450
01:30:48,100 --> 01:30:51,420
and I firmly believe Wilford
made sure that it was worded the

1451
01:30:51,420 --> 01:30:53,820
way it was so that there was
plenty of wiggle room.

1452
01:30:55,460 --> 01:30:58,720
But everybody thought was short
term.

1453
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:03,320
They thought this because even
certain higher ups in the LDS

1454
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:04,920
church thought it would be short
term.

1455
01:31:05,480 --> 01:31:09,640
Musser attends a meeting in the
Salt Lake Temple as a practicing

1456
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:13,280
polygamist with the first
counselor in the First

1457
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:16,720
Presidency where they're asking,
OK, what do we do here now?

1458
01:31:17,360 --> 01:31:20,520
Because because we can't baptize
our kids in the church and they

1459
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:26,950
get the, the, the, the council,
keep your records because in a

1460
01:31:26,950 --> 01:31:30,070
few years we're going to bring
you right back in and those

1461
01:31:30,070 --> 01:31:33,190
records will be there.
So they had no idea that this

1462
01:31:33,190 --> 01:31:38,670
was going to go on as long as it
did and what that requires us.

1463
01:31:38,670 --> 01:31:40,790
And I love what you said there,
Steven, because I think it's

1464
01:31:40,790 --> 01:31:44,470
absolutely 100% true.
What that means now is that we

1465
01:31:44,470 --> 01:31:51,470
have to start looking at what
was said, when it was said and

1466
01:31:51,470 --> 01:31:55,050
what was the context of it,
because there's a lot of of

1467
01:31:55,050 --> 01:31:58,970
advice that was given that got
taken as commandments from these

1468
01:31:58,970 --> 01:32:02,010
early fundamentalist leaders
when they're trying to hold it

1469
01:32:02,010 --> 01:32:02,970
all together.
Right.

1470
01:32:03,130 --> 01:32:05,050
Right.
And they're just like, let's

1471
01:32:05,490 --> 01:32:08,850
let's just do this because this
will keep us all together for

1472
01:32:08,850 --> 01:32:12,730
for another few years.
And those things now begin to

1473
01:32:12,730 --> 01:32:15,730
become perpetuated down the
line.

1474
01:32:15,730 --> 01:32:17,570
Absolutely.
And Angela?

1475
01:32:17,610 --> 01:32:21,250
Became doctrine and and now we
have to start getting to a point

1476
01:32:21,250 --> 01:32:27,510
to where we look at least for
me, I know that that in this way

1477
01:32:27,510 --> 01:32:32,030
of life for me and my kids and
my family, I'm trying real hard

1478
01:32:32,030 --> 01:32:36,110
to say okay, how can I best set
them up for continued success

1479
01:32:37,990 --> 01:32:42,030
100 years from now Because look,
do I think the Savior's coming

1480
01:32:42,030 --> 01:32:43,230
quickly?
I do.

1481
01:32:43,550 --> 01:32:46,870
However, I also understand that
the game of pinning the tail on

1482
01:32:46,870 --> 01:32:50,200
the apocalypse hasn't gone well
for just about anybody.

1483
01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:55,360
So let's let's plan for the long
term, and if it if you don't

1484
01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:58,160
need it, great.
But at least we've taken some

1485
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:05,560
proactive kind of of steps to
ensure that not only can we

1486
01:33:05,560 --> 01:33:08,800
continue as a people, but that
maybe we can get stronger.

1487
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:11,840
Together, right.
Yeah, absolutely.

1488
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:15,480
And that's that absolutely is
what I believe, that God is

1489
01:33:15,480 --> 01:33:20,350
working.
With with like I say, you know,

1490
01:33:20,350 --> 01:33:23,590
one very profound scripture that
I'd never considered and this

1491
01:33:23,590 --> 01:33:28,070
this helped break me away from
this, this really small elitism

1492
01:33:28,070 --> 01:33:31,670
that that each fundamentalist
group is prone to have.

1493
01:33:31,670 --> 01:33:36,790
I don't say they do, but there's
prone to have reading in in the

1494
01:33:36,790 --> 01:33:40,510
Book of Mormon first Nephi,
where he talks about seeing the

1495
01:33:40,510 --> 01:33:44,270
Church of the Lamb of God and he
says it was upon the face of the

1496
01:33:44,270 --> 01:33:47,690
whole earth.
And its holdings were small

1497
01:33:48,130 --> 01:33:53,050
because of the whore, that of
the earth, and and so forth.

1498
01:33:53,050 --> 01:33:56,210
But but I just that struck me
like it never had before.

1499
01:33:56,210 --> 01:33:59,610
And I thought, God has his
church upon the face of the

1500
01:33:59,610 --> 01:34:03,010
whole earth.
What makes you think that a few

1501
01:34:03,130 --> 01:34:06,690
100 people in one little
location is the extent of God's

1502
01:34:06,690 --> 01:34:09,330
work?
And it started to open my eyes

1503
01:34:09,330 --> 01:34:12,730
and I started to see it from a
more of a spiritual perspective

1504
01:34:12,730 --> 01:34:18,210
to say.
God's church is is people that

1505
01:34:18,210 --> 01:34:21,610
are looking and searching for
the truth, even if they're not

1506
01:34:21,610 --> 01:34:23,770
even a part of an organized
group.

1507
01:34:23,770 --> 01:34:26,650
Perhaps they've never even been
baptized, but they're making

1508
01:34:26,650 --> 01:34:29,730
that connection with him, and
they want the truth.

1509
01:34:30,090 --> 01:34:32,770
And I believe that's upon the
face of the whole earth.

1510
01:34:33,330 --> 01:34:39,210
And I believe that his Church
has a responsibility to to

1511
01:34:39,210 --> 01:34:43,810
gather and to help and to help
how?

1512
01:34:44,300 --> 01:34:47,900
How would I say this to fight
every spirit of division and

1513
01:34:47,900 --> 01:34:51,900
discord?
How how would I say this to

1514
01:34:51,980 --> 01:34:54,460
fight every spirit of division
and discord?

1515
01:34:55,420 --> 01:34:58,660
Right.
You know, and and instead of

1516
01:34:58,660 --> 01:35:03,860
actually contributing to the
discord by by cutting off

1517
01:35:03,860 --> 01:35:07,180
anybody that doesn't believe.
And then by default, I guess I

1518
01:35:07,180 --> 01:35:10,900
got to be the right one, right?
This doesn't go well either.

1519
01:35:11,020 --> 01:35:14,640
No, no, it doesn't.
It's all fascinating stuff.

1520
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:16,000
I and.
And I think you're right.

1521
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:18,400
I think.
I think we're all out there, so

1522
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:22,160
scattered.
That we we we've got to start

1523
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:26,560
reaching out across the table
because and and you know and

1524
01:35:26,560 --> 01:35:31,000
you're and you're you're right
you know and I think that Satan

1525
01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:34,160
knows this and and I'm going to
probably I'm going to probably

1526
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:36,360
maybe get a few of my
fundamentalist friends a little

1527
01:35:36,360 --> 01:35:40,040
upset at me that maybe hold a
little bit of a hard line on

1528
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:44,750
these things but but.
You know, divided we fall when

1529
01:35:44,750 --> 01:35:47,830
united we stand.
And that's terrifying for

1530
01:35:47,830 --> 01:35:51,190
somebody to say, well, you know,
how do I, how do I work with

1531
01:35:51,190 --> 01:35:55,030
these people that are so
doctrinally skewed that I can't

1532
01:35:55,030 --> 01:35:58,030
hardly even associate with them.
I mean, they're just way off

1533
01:35:58,030 --> 01:36:03,590
track and yet and yet, you know,
if if the fundamentalist people

1534
01:36:04,750 --> 01:36:10,630
would begin to to, how should I
say, work together, they would

1535
01:36:10,630 --> 01:36:15,190
become a formidable force that.
That, you know, could terrify

1536
01:36:15,190 --> 01:36:19,270
Satan, but as long as he get, he
keeps us fighting each other.

1537
01:36:20,190 --> 01:36:24,390
He don't have to do much.
And and this is, this is, this

1538
01:36:24,390 --> 01:36:28,670
was a real eye opener to me.
Just recently this eye opener

1539
01:36:28,670 --> 01:36:33,790
came to me and I just thought,
and again some fundamentalist

1540
01:36:33,790 --> 01:36:37,950
groups might might really take
issue with me over this, but

1541
01:36:38,470 --> 01:36:40,950
every fundamentalist group
claims to be.

1542
01:36:41,870 --> 01:36:45,990
Legitimate or, you know, or they
wouldn't be doing it right.

1543
01:36:46,750 --> 01:36:48,830
But who has got acknowledged
right?

1544
01:36:50,190 --> 01:36:52,830
Where is his voice?
Come and says, look, I

1545
01:36:52,830 --> 01:36:56,590
acknowledge these people are
living my laws and keeping my

1546
01:36:56,590 --> 01:36:58,870
commandments.
They are my people.

1547
01:37:00,070 --> 01:37:03,590
And so we're all in a pretty
precarious situation because as

1548
01:37:03,590 --> 01:37:07,150
far as I can tell, I haven't
heard or seen where he's

1549
01:37:07,150 --> 01:37:09,110
acknowledged and said this
people.

1550
01:37:09,860 --> 01:37:14,060
Are doing it the way I want it
done right We're all kind of

1551
01:37:14,060 --> 01:37:18,340
hobnobbing along and trying to
trying to do our best and and I

1552
01:37:18,420 --> 01:37:21,300
and he and it.
It seems to me that God's very

1553
01:37:21,300 --> 01:37:26,660
patient to work with us on a
very slow process to help us

1554
01:37:26,660 --> 01:37:30,540
start to see things we didn't
see and perhaps overcome

1555
01:37:30,540 --> 01:37:34,460
prejudices that we had, maybe
ask different set of questions.

1556
01:37:35,900 --> 01:37:39,300
But I I see a a.
Well, just like you and I

1557
01:37:39,300 --> 01:37:43,540
sitting down here having this
conversation today, you know, 20

1558
01:37:43,540 --> 01:37:46,620
years ago, five years ago, this
would have been unheard of for

1559
01:37:46,620 --> 01:37:49,580
me.
Now, 20 years ago, it just like

1560
01:37:49,780 --> 01:37:54,300
you don't do this.
People that that have a

1561
01:37:54,300 --> 01:37:56,060
different background so to
speak.

1562
01:37:56,700 --> 01:37:59,540
And I think just even that
breaking down has started to

1563
01:37:59,540 --> 01:38:02,980
help at least question things,
right?

1564
01:38:03,740 --> 01:38:05,980
Right.
I look and I think that

1565
01:38:05,980 --> 01:38:11,610
questioning things is a good
thing, and I've said it before

1566
01:38:11,610 --> 01:38:14,770
on this podcast, don't ever take
what I say as gospel.

1567
01:38:14,770 --> 01:38:18,370
You go do your own homework
because I can be just as wrong

1568
01:38:18,370 --> 01:38:24,050
as the next guy.
But I will say this, since

1569
01:38:25,130 --> 01:38:29,090
there's been some things that's
given me some encouragement, the

1570
01:38:29,090 --> 01:38:32,930
fact that people are becoming
more open about talking is a

1571
01:38:32,970 --> 01:38:36,130
good thing.
Questions get asked, ideas get

1572
01:38:36,130 --> 01:38:40,780
passed around.
The other thing is, is that I'm

1573
01:38:40,780 --> 01:38:47,420
sensing at least in the the the
newer version, I shouldn't say

1574
01:38:47,420 --> 01:38:49,820
version.
The newer generation of

1575
01:38:50,620 --> 01:38:54,300
fundamentalists were more apt to
talk to one another.

1576
01:38:55,660 --> 01:39:00,460
Just had a the second BBQ I ever
did with just nothing but a

1577
01:39:00,460 --> 01:39:02,780
bunch of fundamentalists.
I mean we had folks from the

1578
01:39:02,780 --> 01:39:07,740
branch.
We had folks I I think we had

1579
01:39:07,740 --> 01:39:13,700
some, we had a some lebarons,
Joshua Erickson, just some

1580
01:39:13,700 --> 01:39:18,180
independence.
And I mean I, I and from what I

1581
01:39:18,180 --> 01:39:21,260
hear because I obviously wasn't
part of the movement back then.

1582
01:39:21,260 --> 01:39:23,900
But from what I hear is that
just like you were saying 20

1583
01:39:23,900 --> 01:39:26,380
years ago, that's not, that's
not happening, right.

1584
01:39:26,460 --> 01:39:28,620
And that's not due to me.
I think it's due to all those

1585
01:39:28,620 --> 01:39:33,180
other people that are willing to
talk now and have a dialogue and

1586
01:39:34,100 --> 01:39:35,700
and just be friendly.
Right.

1587
01:39:36,040 --> 01:39:41,280
And and so that gives me a lot
of encouragement moving on to to

1588
01:39:41,280 --> 01:39:45,800
kind of the next thing what what
is, what is your church believe

1589
01:39:46,120 --> 01:39:48,800
and how are those beliefs
manifest among your group?

1590
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:54,880
Well one one thing and and again
to so to to come back from where

1591
01:39:54,880 --> 01:40:00,440
we were a little bit of our
conversation, we start to look

1592
01:40:00,440 --> 01:40:02,800
at these problems and you start
to see.

1593
01:40:03,180 --> 01:40:06,700
What seems to happen over and
over and over again, men get old

1594
01:40:07,620 --> 01:40:10,740
and people start getting close
to them.

1595
01:40:11,460 --> 01:40:13,020
And then pretty soon things
change.

1596
01:40:13,020 --> 01:40:16,820
All the sudden you see, well
this man, you know, kind of got

1597
01:40:16,820 --> 01:40:20,060
circumvented and boom, he gets
put into a position of authority

1598
01:40:20,060 --> 01:40:22,860
and starts taking everything in
some weird direction.

1599
01:40:22,860 --> 01:40:27,820
And people start losing the
voice to speak and and and to

1600
01:40:27,820 --> 01:40:30,260
express they.
This isn't the direction I

1601
01:40:30,260 --> 01:40:35,410
wanted to go.
And and so we started to want to

1602
01:40:35,410 --> 01:40:37,410
see these things in the way they
happened.

1603
01:40:38,410 --> 01:40:41,930
And again, the questions start
to ask we we start asking these

1604
01:40:41,930 --> 01:40:44,930
questions, well, how do you stop
this stuff?

1605
01:40:45,090 --> 01:40:46,810
How do you stop this stuff from
happening?

1606
01:40:46,810 --> 01:40:49,930
And so again, you start picking
up the Doctrine and Covenants

1607
01:40:49,930 --> 01:40:53,170
and you start seeing.
But we had to get past this idea

1608
01:40:53,610 --> 01:40:56,130
that, you know, every time you
would read these things, what

1609
01:40:56,130 --> 01:40:58,770
the Lord would lay out, you'd
say, well, that, well, that's

1610
01:40:58,850 --> 01:41:00,690
that's church.
That's not us.

1611
01:41:00,690 --> 01:41:03,090
Where the priest stood.
And we're a theocracy.

1612
01:41:03,090 --> 01:41:05,770
And we, you know, our leaders
answered directly to God, and

1613
01:41:05,770 --> 01:41:07,810
they just dictate.
And it's supposed to work.

1614
01:41:08,490 --> 01:41:10,330
And it does.
Until it doesn't.

1615
01:41:10,770 --> 01:41:14,530
Right.
And and and so here's the,

1616
01:41:14,690 --> 01:41:17,930
here's the.
So you start saying, well, do we

1617
01:41:17,930 --> 01:41:20,410
just keep doing this?
And I use this analogy and I

1618
01:41:20,410 --> 01:41:22,010
used it again the other day to
somebody.

1619
01:41:22,490 --> 01:41:26,370
So yeah, you get all done and
you're laying down in the mud,

1620
01:41:27,470 --> 01:41:29,790
gone through one of these
horrible things and you're

1621
01:41:29,790 --> 01:41:33,030
laying down in the mud.
You know, I'm gonna save your

1622
01:41:33,030 --> 01:41:35,870
kind of kneels down there by you
and puts his hand on you and

1623
01:41:35,990 --> 01:41:40,110
looks at you in the eyes and
says, have you had enough or do

1624
01:41:40,110 --> 01:41:44,870
you want to do it my way?
And we go, no, give me one more

1625
01:41:44,870 --> 01:41:48,350
round.
I think I want to do this one

1626
01:41:48,350 --> 01:41:50,750
more time and then we'll then
we'll pick up your book and

1627
01:41:50,750 --> 01:41:52,630
start to see what you say.
Right.

1628
01:41:53,590 --> 01:41:58,650
And and and that's just seems to
be what what I see over and over

1629
01:41:58,650 --> 01:42:01,170
and over in the fundamentalist
people.

1630
01:42:02,010 --> 01:42:06,210
And so you start picking up the
books and you're like, oh, he

1631
01:42:06,210 --> 01:42:10,090
actually says that, you know,
when when people preside over

1632
01:42:10,090 --> 01:42:12,330
other people, they should do it
by their own their, by the

1633
01:42:12,330 --> 01:42:14,970
people's consent, there should
be a sustaining process.

1634
01:42:16,450 --> 01:42:19,530
And that should happen at least
every year, sometimes more than

1635
01:42:19,530 --> 01:42:21,570
that.
But people ought to have a voice

1636
01:42:21,570 --> 01:42:25,930
to be able to sustain who their
leader leaders are.

1637
01:42:27,290 --> 01:42:30,330
The the body of the church has a
responsibility to see that

1638
01:42:30,450 --> 01:42:32,970
iniquity doesn't get in within
that body.

1639
01:42:33,930 --> 01:42:38,050
If you can't hold people
accountable, how do you do that?

1640
01:42:39,130 --> 01:42:42,450
And that was that was one
distinct thing that started to

1641
01:42:42,450 --> 01:42:46,130
change with us.
Another one was we tried to find

1642
01:42:46,130 --> 01:42:49,690
out where.
Why do leaders, Why do

1643
01:42:49,690 --> 01:42:53,090
leadership start to take on an
identity?

1644
01:42:54,490 --> 01:42:57,940
Pretty soon?
It's not just I'm doing this

1645
01:42:57,940 --> 01:43:00,460
job.
This is who I am.

1646
01:43:01,020 --> 01:43:04,380
I am the leader.
I am the prophet or I'm the

1647
01:43:04,380 --> 01:43:09,740
president, I'm this.
And we start to look at this and

1648
01:43:09,740 --> 01:43:13,180
go, where does the Lord say
these are lifelong appointments?

1649
01:43:14,380 --> 01:43:19,500
And you know when, how you know?
Is this what he intended them to

1650
01:43:19,500 --> 01:43:20,140
be?
A man?

1651
01:43:20,140 --> 01:43:24,740
To get old and and start doing
some some funny stuff?

1652
01:43:25,830 --> 01:43:28,990
And we witnessed this over and
over and over again.

1653
01:43:29,310 --> 01:43:30,350
I don't know what you're talking
about.

1654
01:43:30,350 --> 01:43:32,790
The whole Biden thing seems to
be working out really well.

1655
01:43:33,590 --> 01:43:36,030
Yeah.
Yeah, this isn't subject just a

1656
01:43:36,110 --> 01:43:41,870
just a religion, is it?
But, but and and so you start to

1657
01:43:41,870 --> 01:43:43,830
say, well, is that what he
intended?

1658
01:43:44,670 --> 01:43:48,430
You know, we somebody's driving
the car, you know, they don't

1659
01:43:48,470 --> 01:43:51,310
get all puffed up with an
identity that starts to say I am

1660
01:43:51,310 --> 01:43:53,990
the driver of the car and I'm
going to drive until I'm dead

1661
01:43:53,990 --> 01:43:56,210
and the rest of you die with me.
Right.

1662
01:43:56,290 --> 01:43:59,090
It's like, you know, what guy he
there's something, there's

1663
01:43:59,090 --> 01:44:03,890
something very noble in my mind
about a King Benjamin that

1664
01:44:03,890 --> 01:44:09,410
recognizes when it's time to
step down and where is that a

1665
01:44:09,410 --> 01:44:11,610
dishonor?
But in the fundamentalist

1666
01:44:11,610 --> 01:44:16,130
circle, it's like, it's like you
got to hang on to this until the

1667
01:44:16,130 --> 01:44:19,890
last dog is dead.
And and you say, why?

1668
01:44:20,410 --> 01:44:22,130
Why does this have to be this
way?

1669
01:44:22,170 --> 01:44:25,130
And so we started questioning
some of those things to say,

1670
01:44:25,130 --> 01:44:31,090
look, when somebody gets old,
have some pity on him and let

1671
01:44:31,090 --> 01:44:33,170
him retire with some grace and
dignity.

1672
01:44:34,050 --> 01:44:36,450
And.
And now if you're going to do

1673
01:44:36,450 --> 01:44:41,330
that, what you've got to do is
you've got to broaden out the

1674
01:44:41,330 --> 01:44:44,570
leadership because you can't
wait for somebody to die and

1675
01:44:44,570 --> 01:44:48,170
then and then bring somebody
else in that's totally green and

1676
01:44:48,170 --> 01:44:51,980
say here you're the next leader.
You know you have to train your

1677
01:44:51,980 --> 01:44:53,580
replacement and.
Yeah, exactly.

1678
01:44:53,580 --> 01:44:59,020
And great leadership always
pushes authority down and and

1679
01:44:59,020 --> 01:45:07,420
and insecure leadership pulls
authority up to them and and so

1680
01:45:07,420 --> 01:45:09,940
you you start to see him.
They want to they want to create

1681
01:45:09,940 --> 01:45:13,700
that one position or those few
positions that nobody's

1682
01:45:13,700 --> 01:45:17,500
questioning that they become
absolutely indispensable to this

1683
01:45:17,500 --> 01:45:20,250
program.
And then when they die, the

1684
01:45:20,250 --> 01:45:23,850
whole program starts to falter
and shake because now what are

1685
01:45:23,850 --> 01:45:28,170
we going to do?
This guy's gone instead of why

1686
01:45:28,170 --> 01:45:31,370
not push down leadership?
Why not?

1687
01:45:31,370 --> 01:45:35,730
Why can't a president?
Why can't a group of leaders

1688
01:45:36,170 --> 01:45:39,050
take care of these
responsibilities for a while and

1689
01:45:39,090 --> 01:45:42,650
and then allow other people and
if we truly believe this is

1690
01:45:42,650 --> 01:45:45,690
God's work and not, well, mine
and?

1691
01:45:45,690 --> 01:45:48,810
God's right so.
Yeah.

1692
01:45:50,490 --> 01:45:52,170
Yeah, because Because here's the
thing, right?

1693
01:45:52,450 --> 01:45:54,490
Because even Joseph was that
way.

1694
01:45:54,890 --> 01:45:57,890
If you look at what Joseph was
saying, he said, I had my

1695
01:45:57,890 --> 01:46:00,170
experience with God, the Father
and the Son.

1696
01:46:00,930 --> 01:46:05,410
Now you can have yours, right?
His whole thrust is, I want you

1697
01:46:05,410 --> 01:46:07,970
to step into divinity.
I want you to be able to see

1698
01:46:07,970 --> 01:46:11,010
this.
And for whatever reason, we as

1699
01:46:11,010 --> 01:46:15,810
people constantly feel like,
well, I I can't be that person,

1700
01:46:15,850 --> 01:46:17,730
right?
I'm certainly guilty of that

1701
01:46:17,730 --> 01:46:18,810
feeling, Right?
Like.

1702
01:46:20,900 --> 01:46:24,060
I'm just not worthy.
And so I think you're right.

1703
01:46:24,060 --> 01:46:26,580
I think.
I think that, well, we see this

1704
01:46:26,580 --> 01:46:29,740
at the end of the Prophet
Joseph's life when he wanted

1705
01:46:29,740 --> 01:46:35,340
hire him to take over and leave
the church and he wanted he had

1706
01:46:35,340 --> 01:46:39,900
other jobs, he wanted to go do
that that that he needed to do.

1707
01:46:40,780 --> 01:46:43,380
But you know, people didn't want
it, right?

1708
01:46:43,380 --> 01:46:46,660
You know, I mean and it's hard
to be a George Washington and

1709
01:46:46,660 --> 01:46:50,470
step down and say I'm done,
right, I'm done.

1710
01:46:50,870 --> 01:46:55,030
But look how look how George
Washington's memory, I mean hit,

1711
01:46:55,030 --> 01:47:00,710
you know, that that we hold in
his legacy is is, you know, he

1712
01:47:00,710 --> 01:47:02,670
will always be the father of our
country.

1713
01:47:02,670 --> 01:47:03,670
Well.
Here's the thing.

1714
01:47:04,670 --> 01:47:08,710
Because of that one act, and I
love Washington, Washington's a

1715
01:47:08,710 --> 01:47:12,430
personal hero of mine.
When?

1716
01:47:12,430 --> 01:47:14,630
When?
When he's getting ready to leave

1717
01:47:14,630 --> 01:47:17,450
office.
King George over in England says

1718
01:47:17,570 --> 01:47:23,450
if he leaves office, save Jesus
only he's the greatest man

1719
01:47:23,450 --> 01:47:27,730
that's ever lived because he had
every incentive to stay in the

1720
01:47:27,730 --> 01:47:29,450
army.
Loved him, the people loved him.

1721
01:47:29,930 --> 01:47:32,010
The whole the whole ball of wax,
right?

1722
01:47:32,650 --> 01:47:34,890
And he leaves.
And because of the precedent

1723
01:47:34,890 --> 01:47:40,680
that he set, we don't even have.
Actual rule on the books where

1724
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:43,240
you can only serve two terms,
Everyone would just always shame

1725
01:47:43,240 --> 01:47:46,120
me and say are you better than
George Washington, right?

1726
01:47:46,360 --> 01:47:52,200
And so there's no reason that
can't exist in fundamentalism as

1727
01:47:52,200 --> 01:47:54,640
well.
I know it terrifies people.

1728
01:47:55,040 --> 01:47:59,480
But you know when the ego starts
to subside, and I know that

1729
01:47:59,480 --> 01:48:01,200
people don't want to, people
want.

1730
01:48:01,200 --> 01:48:05,560
Who doesn't want to be in a job
and and be faithful to the very

1731
01:48:05,560 --> 01:48:08,760
bitter end until God takes them
and boom, their head hits the

1732
01:48:08,760 --> 01:48:11,160
pulpit and down they go.
I mean they want to be there

1733
01:48:11,160 --> 01:48:13,440
right to the very bitter end and
that's okay.

1734
01:48:14,240 --> 01:48:18,760
But one of the problems is it's
it's too much about them instead

1735
01:48:18,760 --> 01:48:22,960
of instead of Christ and his
Kingdom.

1736
01:48:23,480 --> 01:48:25,880
And and I like the way one man
put this it.

1737
01:48:25,920 --> 01:48:28,760
It just, it resonated with me
when I heard it and I just said

1738
01:48:29,240 --> 01:48:32,520
that's how I want to be.
He and he just says when God

1739
01:48:32,520 --> 01:48:38,530
calls me to be done with my job,
if he wants to move me into the

1740
01:48:38,530 --> 01:48:42,250
lowliest place in the church and
Kingdom, that's Okay, he says.

1741
01:48:42,250 --> 01:48:46,850
I have not one room to complain
or to feel like I've been

1742
01:48:47,330 --> 01:48:50,890
unjustly dealt with.
It was my privilege to serve

1743
01:48:51,090 --> 01:48:54,570
while he asked me to serve, and
when he asked me to step down

1744
01:48:54,570 --> 01:48:57,850
into another job, that's where I
want to be.

1745
01:48:57,850 --> 01:49:01,010
And I thought, you know, that's
a rare, rare thing.

1746
01:49:01,530 --> 01:49:04,810
Yeah, for somebody to to to take
that role.

1747
01:49:05,050 --> 01:49:08,170
Well, and I think you hit hit
the nail on the head with the

1748
01:49:08,170 --> 01:49:14,410
word serve right too often.
Because again, I think it's just

1749
01:49:14,410 --> 01:49:20,730
part of the human condition.
We look at leadership as a a

1750
01:49:20,730 --> 01:49:23,250
sign of how righteous someone
is, sure.

1751
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:30,280
And that feeds the ego, and that
plays into all sorts of

1752
01:49:30,280 --> 01:49:32,520
problems.
Then you get into entitlement

1753
01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:36,440
and those sorts of things.
If you view it from a servant's

1754
01:49:36,440 --> 01:49:41,840
perspective, now it's your time
to serve, to step up, and to do

1755
01:49:42,360 --> 01:49:49,440
the things which God has asked
you to do the.

1756
01:49:49,650 --> 01:49:51,970
I don't think you can ever go
wrong with the servants

1757
01:49:51,970 --> 01:49:56,170
mentality there, right.
And and here's one another issue

1758
01:49:56,170 --> 01:50:00,730
that that I see that that is
problematic or potentially

1759
01:50:00,730 --> 01:50:02,890
problematic.
Now you got a man like John

1760
01:50:02,890 --> 01:50:07,210
Taylor that was he was faithful
right to the very bitter end.

1761
01:50:07,250 --> 01:50:09,090
I mean till his last dying
breath.

1762
01:50:09,090 --> 01:50:12,810
I mean, but that's that's not
always the way it goes with

1763
01:50:12,810 --> 01:50:15,570
people, especially with
different dimensions and things

1764
01:50:15,570 --> 01:50:19,360
that start to happen, even just
natural old age.

1765
01:50:19,360 --> 01:50:22,920
But there's there's also another
problem in psychology.

1766
01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:27,360
They say our last human need is
the need to leave a legacy.

1767
01:50:27,360 --> 01:50:31,000
And say I was there, I mattered,
I made a difference, and so

1768
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:33,080
forth.
So here's men in their last

1769
01:50:33,080 --> 01:50:37,600
phases of their life clinging to
this last human need to say I

1770
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:41,120
still matter.
Who wants to give up a position

1771
01:50:41,120 --> 01:50:46,040
of authority, you know, at the
last part of your life when

1772
01:50:46,040 --> 01:50:51,460
that's the time when we need so
bad humanly to say that her life

1773
01:50:51,460 --> 01:50:54,660
mattered.
And and so I say to wait till

1774
01:50:54,660 --> 01:50:58,940
somebody's in that position and
then say, hey, don't you think

1775
01:50:58,940 --> 01:51:02,940
it's time to step down?
They don't want to step down.

1776
01:51:03,860 --> 01:51:05,860
I watched my dad.
There was a time when my dad

1777
01:51:05,860 --> 01:51:08,300
wanted to step down and we
wouldn't let him.

1778
01:51:09,660 --> 01:51:12,740
And then when he got a little
older, he didn't want to step

1779
01:51:12,740 --> 01:51:16,180
down because that was that was
the last bit of usefulness that

1780
01:51:16,180 --> 01:51:21,520
was left in him And yet and yet
I've watched other men do step

1781
01:51:21,520 --> 01:51:27,600
down before they got very old
and you know what their their

1782
01:51:27,600 --> 01:51:32,240
legacy is, is left intact.
Let.

1783
01:51:32,400 --> 01:51:37,680
Me ask you this, could that be a
product of putting emphasis on

1784
01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:40,480
the wrong things, right?
I Absolutely.

1785
01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:43,840
Because here's the thing.
My legacy is I think about it.

1786
01:51:44,400 --> 01:51:46,480
It's my kids.
It's my family.

1787
01:51:46,930 --> 01:51:49,890
Look, if I die and someone
writes on my headstone, here

1788
01:51:49,890 --> 01:51:52,370
lies Dave Sanders.
He was a decent podcaster and a

1789
01:51:52,370 --> 01:51:54,610
good surveyor.
I'm going to be so pissed,

1790
01:51:55,090 --> 01:51:56,450
right?
That means I failed at

1791
01:51:56,450 --> 01:51:58,370
everything.
That was truly important.

1792
01:51:58,850 --> 01:52:02,970
And so we look for to to leave
our mark.

1793
01:52:02,970 --> 01:52:06,010
I think we, I think.
I think that's reserved for

1794
01:52:06,010 --> 01:52:09,690
families.
So Dave, I mean, I'm going to

1795
01:52:09,850 --> 01:52:13,970
turn this back on you once here
and interview you for two

1796
01:52:13,970 --> 01:52:18,100
seconds.
When you do pass from this, this

1797
01:52:18,100 --> 01:52:21,180
life, what would you want
authentically written on your

1798
01:52:21,180 --> 01:52:24,820
headstone?
Ever thought about that?

1799
01:52:24,820 --> 01:52:28,460
I have.
And I I know exactly what I

1800
01:52:28,460 --> 01:52:32,780
wanted to say.
He loved his Savior.

1801
01:52:33,540 --> 01:52:39,140
He loved the gospel and he was
loved by his wife and his his

1802
01:52:39,140 --> 01:52:40,860
wives and his children.
That's it.

1803
01:52:41,020 --> 01:52:42,580
And you want that to be
authentic, huh?

1804
01:52:42,900 --> 01:52:44,580
Yeah.
That's that's what I want.

1805
01:52:45,220 --> 01:52:47,940
Absolutely.
I want when, when, when I pass

1806
01:52:47,940 --> 01:52:54,060
beyond the veil.
I never want my loved ones,

1807
01:52:54,180 --> 01:52:58,740
whether that's my wives, whether
that's my children, to ever

1808
01:52:58,940 --> 01:53:02,660
doubt that I loved them.
Right.

1809
01:53:02,900 --> 01:53:06,900
And everything I did to a
certain extent was for them.

1810
01:53:07,340 --> 01:53:11,240
It's only after having a family.
That I begin to understand what

1811
01:53:11,240 --> 01:53:14,040
the Lord says when he says this
is my work and my glory to bring

1812
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:16,120
the past, the immortality and
eternal life of man.

1813
01:53:16,440 --> 01:53:19,240
What the Lord is saying, there
is like any father.

1814
01:53:19,880 --> 01:53:22,880
This is all for you.
This is all for you.

1815
01:53:23,640 --> 01:53:28,800
And so even what I'm doing here,
Steven, you and me talking, this

1816
01:53:28,800 --> 01:53:33,240
is in hopes that my kids and
your kids and your grandkids and

1817
01:53:33,240 --> 01:53:36,360
my kids and grandkids will never
have to hide again.

1818
01:53:36,640 --> 01:53:39,940
Right I.
I work hard to kick that door

1819
01:53:39,940 --> 01:53:48,500
down so that my posterity has a
chance to live this out in the

1820
01:53:48,500 --> 01:53:53,300
open without fear, right?
And so that's my worst fear, is

1821
01:53:53,300 --> 01:53:57,900
that I die and they say and and
and they can't say without

1822
01:53:58,420 --> 01:54:01,380
beyond a shadow of a doubt that
he loved us, right?

1823
01:54:02,260 --> 01:54:04,260
Are not.
And if you're going to leave a

1824
01:54:04,260 --> 01:54:09,660
legacy, Dave, leave it with your
family and and have and then and

1825
01:54:10,100 --> 01:54:14,020
be in that job.
Till the day till the day God

1826
01:54:14,020 --> 01:54:18,500
calls you home.
And and and serve, you know

1827
01:54:18,500 --> 01:54:22,260
serve in the in whatever
capacity the work of God that

1828
01:54:22,260 --> 01:54:24,660
bigger picture.
And I believe that we all have a

1829
01:54:25,260 --> 01:54:29,420
like I say I believe we that God
calls us to responsibility above

1830
01:54:29,420 --> 01:54:33,880
and beyond our personal work.
He does have another job for us

1831
01:54:33,880 --> 01:54:36,440
to do serve that and do that
well.

1832
01:54:37,240 --> 01:54:42,040
And if we and if we can make it
not about us and our ego perhaps

1833
01:54:42,040 --> 01:54:46,520
we'll have the presence of mind
when we realize hey there's

1834
01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:48,760
somebody that's much better at
this than me.

1835
01:54:49,600 --> 01:54:53,000
You know maybe it's maybe it's a
person you're trained your help

1836
01:54:53,160 --> 01:54:56,440
mentor for helps.
You know the the young, smart

1837
01:54:56,440 --> 01:54:59,080
Elly kid that you never thought
would amount to a hill of beans

1838
01:54:59,080 --> 01:55:03,060
and and he comes up and and you
just and all you want to do is

1839
01:55:03,460 --> 01:55:07,700
step aside because because your
heart is the work of God will

1840
01:55:07,700 --> 01:55:11,180
will thrive and be better with
him than it was with me.

1841
01:55:11,220 --> 01:55:13,460
Yep.
And I go, I go.

1842
01:55:13,620 --> 01:55:17,100
That's that's what inspires me
when it comes to church

1843
01:55:17,100 --> 01:55:19,300
organization.
Yep, absolutely.

1844
01:55:19,780 --> 01:55:21,860
Absolutely.
All right, let's move on.

1845
01:55:21,860 --> 01:55:25,380
Let me take a quick break here
and then we will come back in

1846
01:55:25,380 --> 01:55:29,660
just a second.
So with with the Nielsen

1847
01:55:29,660 --> 01:55:32,650
Nailers.
There's there's always certain

1848
01:55:32,650 --> 01:55:35,490
things that I think most
fundamentalists believe.

1849
01:55:35,570 --> 01:55:40,770
Let's let's go over a few things
that that that your church

1850
01:55:40,770 --> 01:55:43,690
believes and let's explore those
a little bit.

1851
01:55:44,010 --> 01:55:48,570
So let's start with the obvious
one because it's obvious plural

1852
01:55:48,570 --> 01:55:52,770
marriage.
Is that something that you guys

1853
01:55:52,770 --> 01:55:55,090
believe in practice?
Yeah, absolutely.

1854
01:55:55,090 --> 01:55:59,930
And and do do believe that it's
it's a portion of the fullness

1855
01:55:59,930 --> 01:56:05,340
of the gospel and we do, we do
live and practice it though

1856
01:56:05,780 --> 01:56:10,660
they'll probably being a smaller
group of people.

1857
01:56:10,660 --> 01:56:15,540
I think that that there's
certain dynamics that that that

1858
01:56:16,020 --> 01:56:23,540
play into this if you will, that
some of the old ideas I think

1859
01:56:23,540 --> 01:56:27,740
that are not real prevalent
among us as far as as far as say

1860
01:56:27,740 --> 01:56:31,540
of course as we talked earlier,
the placement marriage thing,

1861
01:56:32,860 --> 01:56:35,660
you know, you want to open up
the door for a lot of more free

1862
01:56:35,660 --> 01:56:41,180
will you know rather than rather
than even even pressure even if

1863
01:56:41,180 --> 01:56:44,900
it's not even placement.
Putting undue pressure on Sunday

1864
01:56:44,900 --> 01:56:50,080
to enter into plural marriage is
is I think is you can be

1865
01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:53,680
problematic especially when the
motivation is well do you want

1866
01:56:53,680 --> 01:56:56,120
to get you know do you want to
go to the highest degree in the

1867
01:56:56,120 --> 01:56:59,040
celestial Kingdom.
Well sometimes to a kid they

1868
01:56:59,040 --> 01:57:04,080
don't know what that means and
and and to lay that out in front

1869
01:57:04,080 --> 01:57:07,960
of them is is I think can be a
problem.

1870
01:57:07,960 --> 01:57:13,160
I've I've got several of my my
children that joined the

1871
01:57:13,160 --> 01:57:17,600
mainstream Mormon church and I
always told them you will never

1872
01:57:17,600 --> 01:57:19,920
find me pushing this lifestyle
on to you.

1873
01:57:20,480 --> 01:57:23,960
It is a you've got to believe it
and you've got to want it and

1874
01:57:23,960 --> 01:57:28,560
you've got to be committed to
live it and and if you don't

1875
01:57:28,560 --> 01:57:33,760
want to do that you know I
recommend that you go find you

1876
01:57:33,840 --> 01:57:38,280
you work where you can I I I'm
not your judge and I don't look

1877
01:57:38,280 --> 01:57:41,080
and say well you're going to go
to you're going to if you don't

1878
01:57:41,080 --> 01:57:42,560
live plural marriage you're
going to hell.

1879
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:45,120
I I go, I don't.
I don't believe that.

1880
01:57:46,330 --> 01:57:49,250
I believe if you're going to
strive to live this way, you

1881
01:57:49,250 --> 01:57:51,050
need to want to.
Right.

1882
01:57:51,290 --> 01:57:54,450
And if you don't, if if that's
not something that that you

1883
01:57:54,450 --> 01:57:58,490
believe and understand and you
even to the degree feel called

1884
01:57:58,490 --> 01:58:02,930
to do, then mind your business.
Don't worry about it.

1885
01:58:03,450 --> 01:58:07,490
You know God will.
God will open that door for you

1886
01:58:07,570 --> 01:58:11,730
when He sees you're ready.
So as far as our group is

1887
01:58:11,730 --> 01:58:16,040
concerned, I am trying to speak
carefully to this because I, you

1888
01:58:16,040 --> 01:58:18,880
know, I certainly don't want to
get a lot of text and say good

1889
01:58:18,880 --> 01:58:20,480
grief and listen to that
podcast.

1890
01:58:20,480 --> 01:58:22,960
That's not what we believe,
that's what you believe.

1891
01:58:24,240 --> 01:58:28,680
So but but I think by and large
most of our people, we believe

1892
01:58:28,960 --> 01:58:34,520
in, in a lot of free will in the
sense that that girls don't

1893
01:58:34,520 --> 01:58:36,000
marry who they don't want to
marry.

1894
01:58:36,120 --> 01:58:38,560
Right.
And incidentally, because of

1895
01:58:38,560 --> 01:58:42,840
that, why there's there's
probably less plural marriage in

1896
01:58:42,840 --> 01:58:46,530
the sense that, you know, you
give somebody set open those

1897
01:58:46,530 --> 01:58:49,930
doors for people.
And you know, sometimes people

1898
01:58:49,930 --> 01:58:52,530
make these choices and they
think, well, man, do I want to

1899
01:58:52,530 --> 01:58:56,290
marry this guy and you know,
he's got 1 foot in the grave and

1900
01:58:56,290 --> 01:59:01,570
the other on a banana peel, you
know or, you know, and so those

1901
01:59:01,570 --> 01:59:05,330
things are just natural.
But I believe that in the long

1902
01:59:05,330 --> 01:59:08,170
term, in the bigger picture, I
think it's it's actually more

1903
01:59:08,170 --> 01:59:13,730
important that that God touch
somebody's heart and he can

1904
01:59:13,730 --> 01:59:17,120
touch a girl's heart.
And even if this guy is is

1905
01:59:17,120 --> 01:59:23,600
older, he can touch your heart
and say why don't you go join up

1906
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:27,600
with that guy and work with in
that family unit there.

1907
01:59:28,080 --> 01:59:30,720
And I absolutely believe that he
can do that.

1908
01:59:31,200 --> 01:59:35,080
And for myself, that would be
the kind of plural marriage I'm

1909
01:59:35,080 --> 01:59:40,840
most interested in, rather than
be married to somebody that was

1910
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:43,400
kind of pressured into it, if
it, if you know what I mean.

1911
01:59:43,400 --> 01:59:48,480
No, absolutely I do and and.
Yeah, I have.

1912
01:59:48,920 --> 01:59:51,400
Like I said, it's a nuanced
view.

1913
01:59:51,400 --> 01:59:55,600
I have no problems if a woman
was to go to a leader and say

1914
01:59:55,720 --> 01:59:58,520
can you help me find something?
But if that.

1915
01:59:58,520 --> 02:00:02,160
Woman feels like she knows where
she's supposed to belong and you

1916
02:00:02,160 --> 02:00:07,320
have her and you have the per,
you know perspective groom and

1917
02:00:07,320 --> 02:00:10,480
you have the girl's father.
Saying this makes sense in this.

1918
02:00:10,960 --> 02:00:13,800
We've prayed about this.
Respect that agency.

1919
02:00:14,680 --> 02:00:21,080
Respect that agency period.
And I would look, I understand

1920
02:00:21,080 --> 02:00:23,920
what I'm saying here and I would
go to the map for that every

1921
02:00:23,920 --> 02:00:26,000
single time without thinking
twice.

1922
02:00:26,160 --> 02:00:29,840
That's that's how I feel.
I'm a dad of of daughters.

1923
02:00:29,880 --> 02:00:32,000
So I get it.
I get it.

1924
02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:38,760
How about Adam?
God doctrine you guys espouse.

1925
02:00:38,760 --> 02:00:41,680
That, yes.
Yeah, we we do and.

1926
02:00:42,440 --> 02:00:47,760
Some of those those doctrines
like we we are a group of people

1927
02:00:47,760 --> 02:00:54,560
we tend to be not so much like
mandate A doctrine like like and

1928
02:00:54,680 --> 02:00:58,120
the reason I'm coming off there
there was A and there was an old

1929
02:00:59,040 --> 02:01:03,000
idea and Joseph Musser talked
about this and it became part of

1930
02:01:03,000 --> 02:01:08,680
actually a requirement in in one
of their when they started to

1931
02:01:08,680 --> 02:01:12,080
bring some of the their brethren
together in in more of a.

1932
02:01:12,640 --> 02:01:17,600
Of a higher select group of of
men when they start bringing

1933
02:01:17,600 --> 02:01:19,560
them together.
One of the requirements was that

1934
02:01:19,560 --> 02:01:24,120
they had to believe the Adam God
doctrine and I think primarily

1935
02:01:24,120 --> 02:01:27,800
that was because they had to be
enough on the same page with

1936
02:01:27,800 --> 02:01:31,000
some of the old early Mormon
doctrine that they was.

1937
02:01:31,000 --> 02:01:34,480
Didn't want to just bring people
together with every strange

1938
02:01:34,480 --> 02:01:38,720
doctrine out there.
The Adam God doctrine, because

1939
02:01:38,720 --> 02:01:40,680
it is been.
It's been.

1940
02:01:41,580 --> 02:01:46,860
Pushed really heavily against
and and the whole idea is it

1941
02:01:46,860 --> 02:01:49,140
changed.
I see a new like a changing.

1942
02:01:49,140 --> 02:01:54,260
It's like a re, a re.
Looking at that doctrine and

1943
02:01:55,420 --> 02:01:58,540
seeing that it wasn't quite such
a weird doctrine that people

1944
02:01:58,860 --> 02:02:03,500
started to think it was and
starting to say, hey, this, this

1945
02:02:03,500 --> 02:02:06,420
actually makes sense now.
It always made sense to me from

1946
02:02:06,420 --> 02:02:09,100
the first time I remember my dad
telling me about it.

1947
02:02:09,100 --> 02:02:14,190
I thought, Well, heck yeah.
Your father comes down and and

1948
02:02:14,190 --> 02:02:17,670
figures out how to get this
whole world started and who else

1949
02:02:17,670 --> 02:02:22,590
would want to come down here and
and and then you know who else

1950
02:02:22,590 --> 02:02:26,750
wants to who else wants to Sire,
you know the the savior of this

1951
02:02:26,750 --> 02:02:29,510
world you know he's going to
come and take care of that that

1952
02:02:29,510 --> 02:02:33,950
business and and and you know we
see we see this we really look

1953
02:02:33,950 --> 02:02:36,150
into the scriptures we see that
doctrine.

1954
02:02:37,500 --> 02:02:39,700
It's, it's through and through.
It's certainly through the

1955
02:02:39,700 --> 02:02:46,300
temple, the old, the old.
Yes, we we see this played out

1956
02:02:46,620 --> 02:02:53,100
as a guy who who's last time
going through the LDS Church

1957
02:02:53,580 --> 02:02:58,700
temple ordinance was about six
months before the COVID

1958
02:02:58,700 --> 02:03:00,660
shutdown.
It's still there.

1959
02:03:01,260 --> 02:03:04,380
Really, it's still there.
They'll never be able to fully

1960
02:03:04,380 --> 02:03:07,930
expunge it.
It's there.

1961
02:03:07,970 --> 02:03:10,650
But unless you've been taught
what the Adam God doctrine is,

1962
02:03:10,650 --> 02:03:12,570
it's going to be hard to spot
now, right?

1963
02:03:12,570 --> 02:03:17,330
But it's still there.
And I I I'll borrow the

1964
02:03:17,450 --> 02:03:20,210
explanation somebody else,
somebody else made this

1965
02:03:20,210 --> 02:03:23,970
explanation and although it
makes sense to me, there's there

1966
02:03:23,970 --> 02:03:26,090
are many that that struggle with
that doctrine.

1967
02:03:26,090 --> 02:03:29,530
They don't understand it and and
I like the explanation.

1968
02:03:29,530 --> 02:03:33,570
I heard a man give one time to
some kids where we don't get

1969
02:03:33,570 --> 02:03:35,690
this, we don't understand this
and he just says look.

1970
02:03:36,710 --> 02:03:41,190
Scripture says you know that the
Savior will introduce you to the

1971
02:03:41,190 --> 02:03:43,310
Father.
So go learn about him.

1972
02:03:44,230 --> 02:03:46,590
And if you learn all about him,
guess what?

1973
02:03:46,950 --> 02:03:48,350
He'll teach you about the
Father.

1974
02:03:48,910 --> 02:03:51,070
And so.
So to me, that's a good

1975
02:03:51,070 --> 02:03:55,510
explanation for them, but for me
it just made such perfect sense

1976
02:03:55,510 --> 02:03:58,350
that we're part of a big family
and.

1977
02:03:58,930 --> 02:04:02,490
And when when our Father in
Heaven stepped down here to take

1978
02:04:02,490 --> 02:04:06,090
on this role of Adam, there was
somebody else that cared just as

1979
02:04:06,090 --> 02:04:08,850
much about everything stepped
into that role for him.

1980
02:04:09,010 --> 02:04:12,450
Whether it was his father,
whether it was his brother, all

1981
02:04:12,450 --> 02:04:15,770
that doesn't even matter to me.
It's it to me.

1982
02:04:15,770 --> 02:04:18,130
It was what made sense to me.
It was all family.

1983
02:04:18,770 --> 02:04:22,010
It's it's we're we're one big
huge family.

1984
02:04:22,650 --> 02:04:25,570
And and and we look out for each
other.

1985
02:04:25,860 --> 02:04:30,340
Yep, the gods look out for each
other and and and when I could,

1986
02:04:30,380 --> 02:04:33,820
when I could see it in that that
realm, I just went, well, it

1987
02:04:33,820 --> 02:04:37,420
makes perfect sense to me.
So by and large, our group of

1988
02:04:37,420 --> 02:04:40,620
people, you know, if if you
stood up and said you didn't

1989
02:04:40,620 --> 02:04:44,220
believe the Adam God doctrine,
well, you'd probably be looked

1990
02:04:44,220 --> 02:04:46,820
at like, well, he's one of
those, right?

1991
02:04:47,140 --> 02:04:52,710
Right.
You know, as a guy who never was

1992
02:04:52,710 --> 02:04:59,950
a Mormon before he turned 1718
somewhere in there and then went

1993
02:04:59,950 --> 02:05:03,270
from LDS to Fundamentalism.
I'll say this for the Adam God

1994
02:05:03,270 --> 02:05:08,670
doctrine.
It makes our father so much more

1995
02:05:08,670 --> 02:05:09,830
personal.
Right.

1996
02:05:10,510 --> 02:05:13,750
So much more personal.
And then when you add in, you

1997
02:05:13,750 --> 02:05:20,430
know, like King Follett into
that all the sudden God becomes

1998
02:05:20,430 --> 02:05:24,310
who I think he wants us to
recognize him as a father, a

1999
02:05:24,350 --> 02:05:29,190
dad.
And that helps foster a

2000
02:05:29,190 --> 02:05:33,030
relationship with deity better
than anything else.

2001
02:05:33,030 --> 02:05:37,310
I know, right?
And I I find such joy and peace

2002
02:05:37,310 --> 02:05:40,430
in that one doctrine.
Well, and and you know, just and

2003
02:05:40,430 --> 02:05:44,430
just to carry that on a little
bit, 11 interesting scripture

2004
02:05:44,430 --> 02:05:47,750
that really, really hit me hard
and touched me along the same

2005
02:05:47,750 --> 02:05:50,950
line.
And you'll remember this in the

2006
02:05:51,190 --> 02:05:55,550
in the garden of Gethsemane it
says and and Christ was praying,

2007
02:05:55,590 --> 02:06:00,070
you know, and it and it says and
sweating as it were great drops

2008
02:06:00,070 --> 02:06:03,310
of blood and going through the
the the real the atonement, this

2009
02:06:03,390 --> 02:06:06,310
really difficult thing.
And it says, it says and he

2010
02:06:06,310 --> 02:06:12,350
prayed and an Angel came
strengthening him and on it's

2011
02:06:12,350 --> 02:06:16,110
interesting because because what
did he pray before this Angel

2012
02:06:16,110 --> 02:06:18,550
came?
We you know that the.

2013
02:06:18,790 --> 02:06:22,190
Words he cried out was he cried
out ABBA.

2014
02:06:23,310 --> 02:06:28,070
And now ABBA is interesting
because it's an Aramaic word and

2015
02:06:28,750 --> 02:06:32,910
and it and there's no real Greek
good translation to that but the

2016
02:06:32,910 --> 02:06:39,310
closest closest we can get to
ABBA is my father.

2017
02:06:39,950 --> 02:06:45,390
It's almost like some of even
said my daddy, my, my eternal.

2018
02:06:45,630 --> 02:06:53,070
It's like a very familial.
Tie not just a formal father

2019
02:06:53,470 --> 02:06:58,470
it's like this is my father and
and there here was our savior of

2020
02:06:58,470 --> 02:07:03,350
this world crying out for his
father and it says an Angel came

2021
02:07:03,350 --> 02:07:05,950
and strengthened him.
There isn't an Angel in

2022
02:07:05,950 --> 02:07:09,990
existence that could have
strengthened him except his

2023
02:07:09,990 --> 02:07:15,990
father and and and realizing
that, realizing that that tender

2024
02:07:15,990 --> 02:07:19,220
moment.
When father comes to strengthen,

2025
02:07:19,220 --> 02:07:23,300
Son did to do that work that he
didn't think he could do.

2026
02:07:23,900 --> 02:07:27,780
It was potent and powerful to to
really recognize that.

2027
02:07:28,340 --> 02:07:33,220
And and there and then Paul
tells us later on we qualify

2028
02:07:33,220 --> 02:07:36,300
ourselves.
Our spirit will reach with that

2029
02:07:36,300 --> 02:07:43,940
spirit whereby we will be able
to cry ABBA father yeah no it it

2030
02:07:46,140 --> 02:07:47,900
when someone says what does it
matter?

2031
02:07:48,140 --> 02:07:53,500
I'm like, oh you poor soul, you
poor soul, it it means

2032
02:07:53,500 --> 02:07:55,660
everything.
What does it matter that you had

2033
02:07:55,660 --> 02:07:59,220
a personal father in your family
or whatever?

2034
02:07:59,300 --> 02:08:01,580
Why not just pick any father,
right.

2035
02:08:01,580 --> 02:08:04,860
You're like there's something
about that family that says this

2036
02:08:04,860 --> 02:08:07,380
is my family, right?
Right.

2037
02:08:07,420 --> 02:08:11,340
And the and to know that and
when you're when you drop down

2038
02:08:11,340 --> 02:08:14,300
on your knees and and you're
just pouring your heart out and

2039
02:08:14,300 --> 02:08:18,240
you can't go on.
To know this is this is not just

2040
02:08:18,440 --> 02:08:22,640
somebody up there that's that's
that's got a mission to listen

2041
02:08:22,640 --> 02:08:24,880
to me.
This is my father, right.

2042
02:08:25,000 --> 02:08:27,560
This is my father that I'm
talking to right.

2043
02:08:27,880 --> 02:08:30,720
And and when someone says, what
does it matter?

2044
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:32,800
I'm like I don't know what's
reading John where it says this

2045
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:36,600
is life eternal to know the one
true God and Jesus Christ whom

2046
02:08:36,600 --> 02:08:38,840
he sent.
It's vitally important.

2047
02:08:38,840 --> 02:08:40,760
Yeah.
And it's vitally important,

2048
02:08:40,760 --> 02:08:46,610
Steven, because I feel like it
puts us into, into a very real

2049
02:08:46,610 --> 02:08:54,290
proximity to deity, right?
And not just any deity, to our

2050
02:08:54,290 --> 02:09:00,890
father, to our dad, period.
And I think that has lasting

2051
02:09:00,970 --> 02:09:06,210
effects that I feel sometimes
people miss out on by not having

2052
02:09:06,210 --> 02:09:06,970
that.
Yep.

2053
02:09:09,970 --> 02:09:12,810
I'm just going to say and just I
didn't want to pass up more of

2054
02:09:12,810 --> 02:09:14,890
your question.
You know kind of so some of the

2055
02:09:15,090 --> 02:09:18,330
few of the distinct things we do
believe in the Adam God doctrine

2056
02:09:18,330 --> 02:09:22,730
and and as we as we talked
earlier you know we we we we

2057
02:09:22,730 --> 02:09:27,690
believe that you know in trying
to organize yourselves more

2058
02:09:27,890 --> 02:09:30,210
according to the Doctrine and
Covenants and the way the

2059
02:09:30,210 --> 02:09:35,290
scriptures laid out and perhaps
less after some of the.

2060
02:09:36,620 --> 02:09:41,380
Some of the fundamentalist ideas
that have come down through, I

2061
02:09:41,380 --> 02:09:45,220
don't, I don't dismiss them and
say and say even like with like

2062
02:09:45,220 --> 02:09:48,180
we might say the priesthood
council and in some groups say,

2063
02:09:48,700 --> 02:09:51,540
you know, well this is these are
the friends of Jesus Christ

2064
02:09:51,540 --> 02:09:55,140
versus council of friends or the
OR they represent the ancient

2065
02:09:55,140 --> 02:09:59,900
sanhedron, you know, and so on
and so forth and and so they're

2066
02:09:59,900 --> 02:10:04,850
this special government of God.
We we there's there's a lot of

2067
02:10:04,850 --> 02:10:08,210
that that's becomes very
ambiguous in my mind and and we

2068
02:10:08,610 --> 02:10:12,530
so we tend to we'll look at
things and say look the Lord

2069
02:10:12,530 --> 02:10:17,290
says to to to organize when
you're running a church that

2070
02:10:17,290 --> 02:10:20,370
this is how you should do it.
This helped with the problem.

2071
02:10:20,370 --> 02:10:23,890
So as as far as the the
doctrine, we do believe in

2072
02:10:23,890 --> 02:10:28,930
plural marriage, we believe in
the Adam God doctrine and and

2073
02:10:28,930 --> 02:10:31,690
we've tried to organize
ourselves as close.

2074
02:10:32,320 --> 02:10:39,280
To the scriptures as we can at
the present time and and and

2075
02:10:39,280 --> 02:10:45,320
take this view a little bit,
that we tried to put the words

2076
02:10:45,320 --> 02:10:51,240
of the Savior top the words of
the Prophet Joseph to help

2077
02:10:51,240 --> 02:10:55,200
explain the words of the Savior.
But we don't put the the

2078
02:10:55,200 --> 02:10:58,040
teachings of, even though we'll
hold the teachings of Brigham

2079
02:10:58,040 --> 02:11:01,640
and Heber and John Taylor and
those men up high, we don't put

2080
02:11:01,640 --> 02:11:04,050
those.
On the same level as the words

2081
02:11:04,050 --> 02:11:09,970
of the Savior, if there's a
conflict, we should follow the

2082
02:11:09,970 --> 02:11:17,090
Savior and not.
And if there's but there's so

2083
02:11:17,090 --> 02:11:20,810
many and then fundamentalism
even in when I grew up.

2084
02:11:21,530 --> 02:11:23,970
There was all these mental
gymnastics that you would have

2085
02:11:23,970 --> 02:11:27,210
to go through to try to say,
okay, how do we, how do we fit

2086
02:11:27,210 --> 02:11:30,370
with what brother Brigham said,
with what the brother we knew

2087
02:11:30,370 --> 02:11:32,130
said, and with what the Savior
said?

2088
02:11:32,370 --> 02:11:35,210
And you're trying to twist this
all up to make it all make

2089
02:11:35,210 --> 02:11:37,890
sense.
And it comes a point where you

2090
02:11:37,890 --> 02:11:40,730
just say you know what if it's
really ambiguous?

2091
02:11:40,730 --> 02:11:42,930
What did the Savior say?
Is it clear?

2092
02:11:43,730 --> 02:11:47,130
And if it's clear, maybe we
should maybe we should first do

2093
02:11:47,130 --> 02:11:51,090
that and and if we need some
extra help.

2094
02:11:51,870 --> 02:11:54,190
Then let's look and see what the
Brethren have said through the

2095
02:11:54,190 --> 02:11:57,550
years about this and see if that
helps us gain light and

2096
02:11:57,550 --> 02:12:02,350
understanding on a doctrine or
the way it should go.

2097
02:12:02,790 --> 02:12:06,510
And and then maybe not be quite
so tied to it, just because you

2098
02:12:06,510 --> 02:12:10,950
can find a place that Brigham
Young said something, maybe just

2099
02:12:11,270 --> 02:12:13,990
said it a little different
instead of a place of this is

2100
02:12:14,030 --> 02:12:18,310
absolute truth, unquestioned
truth, as though Christ said it

2101
02:12:18,310 --> 02:12:21,500
himself.
There's many things and I and I

2102
02:12:21,740 --> 02:12:26,540
love Brigham Young.
I his he was a profound man to

2103
02:12:26,540 --> 02:12:30,020
read his writings and yet
there's some things that in his

2104
02:12:30,020 --> 02:12:34,900
writings that that I just go I
need to have a conversation with

2105
02:12:34,900 --> 02:12:38,620
him to have him explain that to
me because it doesn't make sense

2106
02:12:38,620 --> 02:12:41,780
to me today.
And and most of those those

2107
02:12:41,780 --> 02:12:44,980
early brethren I would feel that
way with there were things that

2108
02:12:45,300 --> 02:12:47,740
that that got said and I and I
go.

2109
02:12:48,820 --> 02:12:50,420
I just need some explanation on
that.

2110
02:12:51,020 --> 02:12:54,020
But just to find one little
verse that Brigham said in this

2111
02:12:54,020 --> 02:12:58,380
sermon here and we hold to it
and live and die by it and hold

2112
02:12:58,380 --> 02:13:00,700
build everything around that,
right?

2113
02:13:01,700 --> 02:13:08,060
And and if there's one critique
I have also a fundamentalism as

2114
02:13:08,060 --> 02:13:13,180
a whole, it's that we tend to do
a kneejerk reaction.

2115
02:13:13,860 --> 02:13:19,830
If the LDS church comes out and
says something, we we tend to go

2116
02:13:19,830 --> 02:13:22,670
the opposite direction because
nothing good can come from the

2117
02:13:22,670 --> 02:13:25,630
church, right.
And I'm like, well, now hang

2118
02:13:25,630 --> 02:13:29,630
tight, let's let's let's
honestly, on each principle,

2119
02:13:30,630 --> 02:13:34,550
let's apply some principled
scrutiny to it and come up with

2120
02:13:34,550 --> 02:13:38,990
a decision from there, right?
And and and go from there.

2121
02:13:38,990 --> 02:13:43,110
Let's not just do a knee jerk
reaction and maybe carry forward

2122
02:13:43,110 --> 02:13:47,550
a false tradition just because
the LDS Church is in favor of

2123
02:13:47,550 --> 02:13:52,110
it, right?
So I I I feel like if if we're

2124
02:13:52,110 --> 02:13:55,550
truly who we say we are and
we're fundamentalism, then let's

2125
02:13:55,550 --> 02:13:58,150
look at the fundamentals and and
line those out.

2126
02:13:58,510 --> 02:14:01,910
And so consequently what you
said there about just going back

2127
02:14:01,910 --> 02:14:04,270
to the Doctrine and Covenants,
when you start talking about

2128
02:14:04,670 --> 02:14:08,030
church, government, church
structure, I think that's highly

2129
02:14:08,030 --> 02:14:11,910
commendable because the Lord
does a really good job of laying

2130
02:14:11,910 --> 02:14:15,940
out what it's supposed to be,
right right down to to the

2131
02:14:15,940 --> 02:14:18,300
Quorum of the 12, which is you
know, they're they're

2132
02:14:18,300 --> 02:14:23,260
essentially traveling ministers
to minister to to to those

2133
02:14:23,260 --> 02:14:27,820
stakes or or to those people
outside of of stakes and then

2134
02:14:27,820 --> 02:14:30,580
then organized stakes that's
something different.

2135
02:14:31,100 --> 02:14:35,820
And so I, I, I, I commend you
for that because that that also

2136
02:14:35,820 --> 02:14:39,810
takes a bit of humility to be
like, OK, maybe we should go

2137
02:14:39,810 --> 02:14:43,090
look at that book again, maybe
we should dust it off and maybe

2138
02:14:43,090 --> 02:14:47,450
really to start taking a look at
it because as fundamentalists, a

2139
02:14:47,450 --> 02:14:51,330
lot of what we've tried so far
hasn't worked real well, right?

2140
02:14:52,490 --> 02:14:54,010
Let's just call it what it is,
right.

2141
02:14:54,010 --> 02:14:57,930
And we're small in number, which
is fine.

2142
02:14:57,970 --> 02:15:00,610
I'm not saying we have to be
massive, but we haven't grown a

2143
02:15:00,610 --> 02:15:04,290
whole bunch.
I think most of our replacement

2144
02:15:04,290 --> 02:15:09,320
rate comes from births.
Maybe it's time we look at some

2145
02:15:09,320 --> 02:15:12,280
other things.
You know, go back to the source.

2146
02:15:12,720 --> 02:15:15,360
Yep, I I, I would agree with
that.

2147
02:15:15,360 --> 02:15:20,800
And if the truth is really as
potent as we we claim it is to

2148
02:15:20,800 --> 02:15:24,480
me, I say then why be afraid of
it if we're unless we're trying

2149
02:15:24,480 --> 02:15:31,400
to create some dogmatic social
hierarchy that feeds, you know,

2150
02:15:31,400 --> 02:15:33,240
and I hate to say it that way
because it sounds really

2151
02:15:33,240 --> 02:15:36,920
sinister, that just feeds
people's egos, but quite

2152
02:15:36,920 --> 02:15:38,960
honestly?
We're human, yeah.

2153
02:15:38,960 --> 02:15:41,000
And that's a lot of times what
happens.

2154
02:15:41,040 --> 02:15:45,120
And and like I said before it
takes a rare individual to be

2155
02:15:45,120 --> 02:15:50,120
able to step back and just say
I'm done, I'm done.

2156
02:15:50,440 --> 02:15:57,240
And the work of God will go
better if I step back and go

2157
02:15:57,240 --> 02:16:02,240
finish taking care of my family
and finish out my life and let

2158
02:16:02,240 --> 02:16:06,520
somebody else take this work and
and it will thrive.

2159
02:16:07,400 --> 02:16:09,360
Yep, absolutely.
Absolutely.

2160
02:16:09,720 --> 02:16:13,600
What about ordinances?
You guys do baptism and and all

2161
02:16:13,600 --> 02:16:16,200
that, right?
What about temple ordinances?

2162
02:16:16,200 --> 02:16:19,520
You guys have temples?
We we don't.

2163
02:16:19,720 --> 02:16:24,720
We have, we do have endowment
house and so we are in the

2164
02:16:24,720 --> 02:16:26,200
process.
We have.

2165
02:16:26,440 --> 02:16:31,120
It's been a long evolved process
to come to that place that, you

2166
02:16:31,120 --> 02:16:34,680
know, there's a there's a lot of
fear associated with these

2167
02:16:34,680 --> 02:16:36,920
things, especially when you come
from the background.

2168
02:16:37,340 --> 02:16:42,299
That we came from where you
don't touch these things right

2169
02:16:42,299 --> 02:16:46,180
these things are going to be
when set were set in order and

2170
02:16:46,180 --> 02:16:50,459
and when one mighty and strong
comes or the the the temples

2171
02:16:50,459 --> 02:16:53,420
will be given back to us or
whatever.

2172
02:16:53,740 --> 02:16:56,580
And there was a lot of these
stories and they came from from

2173
02:16:56,580 --> 02:17:00,340
good sources but they were also
came from sources where men that

2174
02:17:00,340 --> 02:17:03,900
had been kicked out of these
places and.

2175
02:17:04,270 --> 02:17:10,910
One wonders if there wasn't just
a little bit of, you know, we're

2176
02:17:10,910 --> 02:17:14,709
going to be vindicated.
And because some of the old

2177
02:17:14,709 --> 02:17:17,230
stories, I mean, we all love the
Salt Lake Temple.

2178
02:17:17,549 --> 02:17:21,629
I mean, it was just, you know,
just absolute icon.

2179
02:17:22,389 --> 02:17:26,549
And yet in fundamentalists we
were we were told in different

2180
02:17:28,790 --> 02:17:31,910
circles, if you will, or places
that one day that that temple

2181
02:17:31,910 --> 02:17:36,680
would be turned back to us.
And God would cleanse it and

2182
02:17:36,920 --> 02:17:39,520
that the fundamentalist people
would finally get to go in and

2183
02:17:39,520 --> 02:17:43,600
receive their ordinances and and
that the fundamentalist perhaps

2184
02:17:43,600 --> 02:17:46,120
would use it by night and the
Mormon Church would use it by

2185
02:17:46,120 --> 02:17:48,240
day.
And that God would open up those

2186
02:17:48,240 --> 02:17:50,920
doors that they could receive
all their blessings and and it

2187
02:17:50,920 --> 02:17:53,480
was like, here's the icon.
I mean this is the old, this is

2188
02:17:53,840 --> 02:17:59,600
the Mormon icon, if you will.
And I know this is might be a

2189
02:17:59,600 --> 02:18:02,969
sensitive area because.
You got a great love for the

2190
02:18:02,969 --> 02:18:06,129
Salt Lake Temple.
I, I, I listen to your podcast

2191
02:18:06,129 --> 02:18:10,610
and and how heart wrenching it
was to watch it begutted, you

2192
02:18:10,610 --> 02:18:11,850
know?
And yet.

2193
02:18:12,090 --> 02:18:17,490
And yet I wonder if God didn't
allow that to happen, because

2194
02:18:17,490 --> 02:18:21,969
the fundamentalist people have
been hanging on to that icon to

2195
02:18:21,969 --> 02:18:26,650
the point where they wouldn't
even look out and say, maybe

2196
02:18:26,650 --> 02:18:29,129
it's time for us to do
something.

2197
02:18:29,540 --> 02:18:34,219
And make a sacrifice somewhat
equivalent to our forefathers.

2198
02:18:35,459 --> 02:18:41,420
I think you were 100% correct.
And I've said this before, it's

2199
02:18:41,420 --> 02:18:44,420
been a process like watching an
old friend die, right?

2200
02:18:44,620 --> 02:18:53,740
A very painful, slow death.
I'll say this, gosh, I can't

2201
02:18:53,740 --> 02:18:55,500
believe I think I've said this
before.

2202
02:18:55,500 --> 02:18:58,740
But every time I think about it,
I I keep thinking myself, who

2203
02:18:58,740 --> 02:19:02,340
the hell was I to do this?
But I mean this is a temple that

2204
02:19:02,340 --> 02:19:06,379
when I look plural marriage the
first time I took both my wives

2205
02:19:06,379 --> 02:19:10,820
too, right?
There was a residue.

2206
02:19:11,260 --> 02:19:18,340
And this was I recognize this
long before I ever, I ever was a

2207
02:19:18,340 --> 02:19:21,740
polygamist because that was like
the second temple I ever

2208
02:19:21,740 --> 02:19:24,500
attended, right.
Like, I got my endowments in

2209
02:19:24,500 --> 02:19:27,790
Boise and I'm like, I want to go
to Salt Lake right now.

2210
02:19:28,510 --> 02:19:31,270
And we did.
Amber humored me and she's like,

2211
02:19:31,270 --> 02:19:34,510
okay, let's go.
So we made the trip down and

2212
02:19:34,510 --> 02:19:38,309
there is a there was a palpable
residue that was left over.

2213
02:19:39,469 --> 02:19:43,709
That's gone now.
And in some ways I feel somewhat

2214
02:19:43,709 --> 02:19:47,030
relieved by it, and I think we
should all feel that right.

2215
02:19:47,590 --> 02:19:53,110
Sometimes there is nothing.
And I had a good friend who did

2216
02:19:53,110 --> 02:19:57,750
have a spouse who died.
And I remember he said, is it

2217
02:19:57,750 --> 02:20:01,510
bad that I feel relieved a
little bit, right.

2218
02:20:01,830 --> 02:20:04,190
And I was like, no, I don't.
I don't think that's bad.

2219
02:20:04,870 --> 02:20:08,110
It doesn't mean you didn't care.
It just means you were tired of

2220
02:20:08,110 --> 02:20:11,350
shouldering that burden for as
long as you did right?

2221
02:20:11,750 --> 02:20:15,310
And I don't think your your wife
would have any ill feelings

2222
02:20:15,310 --> 02:20:21,550
towards you for feeling that.
I think with what has been done,

2223
02:20:21,550 --> 02:20:24,030
what they are continuing to do
with that temple.

2224
02:20:25,300 --> 02:20:28,580
There should be some relief now
that's done.

2225
02:20:28,980 --> 02:20:30,580
Yeah.
There's nothing we can do.

2226
02:20:30,580 --> 02:20:33,220
We've saw a few.
We saw the friend die.

2227
02:20:34,180 --> 02:20:36,060
Now let's go forward.
Right.

2228
02:20:36,140 --> 02:20:38,180
And let's move forward.
Let's cut ties.

2229
02:20:39,700 --> 02:20:42,500
Let's go to work.
Let's build one of our own.

2230
02:20:43,100 --> 02:20:47,020
And that's what I absolutely
believe is is is really where

2231
02:20:47,620 --> 02:20:51,900
what is really important and and
again for me when I realized

2232
02:20:51,900 --> 02:20:56,360
that that that.
We are a temple building people,

2233
02:20:56,800 --> 02:21:00,280
God as he says.
You know, I always command my

2234
02:21:00,280 --> 02:21:03,880
people to build temples.
It's a part of the fullness of

2235
02:21:03,880 --> 02:21:07,240
the everlasting gospel and yet
fundamentalist for 100 years,

2236
02:21:07,800 --> 02:21:11,960
and I don't mean across the
board because some have more and

2237
02:21:11,960 --> 02:21:14,560
less.
There is still some that are die

2238
02:21:14,560 --> 02:21:16,760
hard.
We are never touching this stuff

2239
02:21:16,760 --> 02:21:20,680
until the one mighty and strong
or somebody bigger than us comes

2240
02:21:20,680 --> 02:21:23,790
and tells us to do it.
And and that's okay that's

2241
02:21:23,950 --> 02:21:28,950
that's their choice.
But for me I go I go the

2242
02:21:28,950 --> 02:21:34,030
fullness of the gospel is the
fullness of the gospel and and I

2243
02:21:34,030 --> 02:21:36,870
believe that God will open up
the door for any one of his

2244
02:21:36,870 --> 02:21:40,390
children to live the fullness if
they choose to if they desire it

2245
02:21:40,830 --> 02:21:43,470
and they want to live that way
he will open up that door.

2246
02:21:43,470 --> 02:21:48,710
So absolutely Temple, we, you
know we're we've we've had an

2247
02:21:48,710 --> 02:21:51,470
endowment house for some time
but that's not sufficient.

2248
02:21:52,370 --> 02:21:56,290
In a temple.
And so we we are in the process

2249
02:21:56,290 --> 02:22:02,250
of of working towards that and
so because again it's it's, it's

2250
02:22:02,250 --> 02:22:06,090
not there till it's there and
the fullness isn't the fullness

2251
02:22:06,090 --> 02:22:10,530
until it's full.
And as much as you want to I

2252
02:22:10,530 --> 02:22:14,450
guess where we've probably
changed the most and I and I'll

2253
02:22:14,450 --> 02:22:18,570
probably say I've changed and
and if other people of our of

2254
02:22:18,570 --> 02:22:21,810
our society would agree then
that's that's great.

2255
02:22:22,350 --> 02:22:26,550
But it's it's kind of to this
point where you've kind of let

2256
02:22:26,550 --> 02:22:29,950
some of the fear go and you've
just said, you know what?

2257
02:22:29,950 --> 02:22:33,470
I would rather?
I would rather engage and do all

2258
02:22:33,470 --> 02:22:39,350
I can to establish the fullness
of the gospel, you know, and and

2259
02:22:39,350 --> 02:22:44,430
help the Lord with His work than
to sit back and make an excuse

2260
02:22:44,430 --> 02:22:48,630
or wait for some future event to
say okay.

2261
02:22:48,910 --> 02:22:51,590
Well, maybe then.
Maybe then it will happen.

2262
02:22:52,380 --> 02:22:56,180
Yeah, and having said that, I
know that terrifies people.

2263
02:22:56,900 --> 02:23:02,740
But it doesn't have to because
as you move and you engage, God

2264
02:23:02,740 --> 02:23:08,260
gives assurances that you're on
the right track.

2265
02:23:08,620 --> 02:23:12,340
He doesn't have to say okay, You
got to wait until you die to get

2266
02:23:12,340 --> 02:23:15,500
your knuckles wrapped to see if
you did the wrong thing.

2267
02:23:15,580 --> 02:23:18,780
He truly does he when you get on
the right track and you're

2268
02:23:18,780 --> 02:23:23,580
trying to do the right thing.
He absolutely helps.

2269
02:23:23,580 --> 02:23:26,340
You know whether or not, OK,
this is the right thing or

2270
02:23:26,620 --> 02:23:31,700
that's not, don't do that.
Go do this and watch that that

2271
02:23:31,700 --> 02:23:35,220
evolve.
And so in relation to the

2272
02:23:35,260 --> 02:23:38,060
different fundamentalist groups,
I know there's there's a little

2273
02:23:38,060 --> 02:23:41,820
bit of heartburn over this
because different people feel

2274
02:23:41,820 --> 02:23:46,980
like, especially when they see
different groups interacting and

2275
02:23:46,980 --> 02:23:49,300
doing certain things like some
believe.

2276
02:23:49,640 --> 02:23:52,600
We can do endowment but we can't
build the temple And some

2277
02:23:52,600 --> 02:23:56,080
believe that we can build a
temple but we've got it only go

2278
02:23:56,080 --> 02:23:59,800
so far and and others know we
shouldn't touch this at all.

2279
02:24:00,080 --> 02:24:03,480
And it starts to become a little
bit of heartburn with people to

2280
02:24:03,480 --> 02:24:05,640
where they just just kind of
want.

2281
02:24:05,640 --> 02:24:10,680
I wish we'd all just leave this
alone and wait for somebody, one

2282
02:24:10,680 --> 02:24:13,800
mighty and strong to come and
and set it all straight.

2283
02:24:15,220 --> 02:24:18,140
But you know, I made this remark
to somebody, and this is, this

2284
02:24:18,140 --> 02:24:23,820
is, this helps me because I
think you take, you take our

2285
02:24:23,980 --> 02:24:28,500
current situation in Mormon
fundamentalism, and now you take

2286
02:24:28,500 --> 02:24:32,300
a man like, take any one of
them, take John Tater, Heber C

2287
02:24:32,300 --> 02:24:35,980
Kimball, Wilford, Woodruff, any
one of those men, and just take

2288
02:24:35,980 --> 02:24:39,820
and transplant them from their
day to our day without their

2289
02:24:39,820 --> 02:24:41,860
authority, with their, with
their character.

2290
02:24:42,990 --> 02:24:45,550
Would John Taylor be a man that
would just stand aside and just

2291
02:24:45,550 --> 02:24:48,110
say, I just, I guess we just
can't do anything?

2292
02:24:48,670 --> 02:24:51,110
No, these were doers.
These were doers.

2293
02:24:51,150 --> 02:24:54,670
These were men that would just
look around and say, what in the

2294
02:24:54,670 --> 02:24:58,430
world is this what this came to?
Look, here's the thing, right?

2295
02:25:00,070 --> 02:25:01,870
Excuse me.
It's one of the things that I

2296
02:25:01,870 --> 02:25:08,190
fell in love with Mormonism when
I when I after I got testimony

2297
02:25:08,190 --> 02:25:09,110
of the fullness.
Right.

2298
02:25:09,860 --> 02:25:12,260
There are some, pardon the
expression, there are some

2299
02:25:12,260 --> 02:25:14,820
straight up badass stories of
those guys, right.

2300
02:25:15,100 --> 02:25:17,220
We're going to March our butts
out West.

2301
02:25:17,220 --> 02:25:20,620
We're going to carve a society
out of the desert and we're

2302
02:25:20,620 --> 02:25:23,780
going to get it done.
So like you were saying, if John

2303
02:25:23,780 --> 02:25:26,860
Taylor, Brigham Young, Joseph
Smith, if they were looking at

2304
02:25:26,860 --> 02:25:29,980
our day, they saw the condition
of the church in apostasy.

2305
02:25:32,900 --> 02:25:35,460
It's not like they would be
like, yeah, you should wait,

2306
02:25:36,140 --> 02:25:40,010
just just sitting on and keep in
mind, Joseph Smith said A man

2307
02:25:40,010 --> 02:25:44,290
will never be.
How do you put that?

2308
02:25:46,290 --> 02:25:50,810
Something about a man will never
be in trouble for believing too

2309
02:25:50,810 --> 02:25:52,610
much.
Right, right.

2310
02:25:52,610 --> 02:25:54,130
I don't know if that.
Sounds familiar to you?

2311
02:25:54,130 --> 02:25:56,970
It's condemned for unbelief,
right?

2312
02:25:56,970 --> 02:25:58,050
Exactly.
You'll never.

2313
02:25:58,210 --> 02:26:03,210
It's it's unbelief, right?
K So let's say we were supposed

2314
02:26:03,210 --> 02:26:07,640
to wait around for somebody.
The word will at least look and

2315
02:26:07,640 --> 02:26:10,480
say You did something, right,
you did something.

2316
02:26:11,600 --> 02:26:14,840
You know, and I know that I know
this really this terrifies

2317
02:26:14,840 --> 02:26:17,200
people.
But I but I've said that many

2318
02:26:17,200 --> 02:26:21,320
times I'd way rather, I'd way
rather my son get up and go mow

2319
02:26:21,360 --> 02:26:23,000
the lawn.
Even if he mowed over.

2320
02:26:23,000 --> 02:26:27,920
He's some of my prized roses
that you know but but got it to

2321
02:26:27,920 --> 02:26:31,880
try to get it done than that kid
that's that sat there and did

2322
02:26:31,880 --> 02:26:34,040
nothing because he was so afraid
to try.

2323
02:26:34,600 --> 02:26:37,760
And took and hit his talent in
the sand and said oh I know

2324
02:26:37,760 --> 02:26:40,920
God's pretty austere man he's
going to hold me responsible for

2325
02:26:40,920 --> 02:26:42,520
these things.
So I'm not going to do nothing

2326
02:26:43,240 --> 02:26:45,120
right.
And I I know that terrifies

2327
02:26:45,120 --> 02:26:48,800
people to to even talk that way.
But but there's something that

2328
02:26:48,800 --> 02:26:55,440
resonates so true and and again
I I I feel like that that God

2329
02:26:55,440 --> 02:27:00,320
requires us to step forward in
faith and exercise our faith and

2330
02:27:00,320 --> 02:27:02,760
and in reality we do.
We exercise our faith and

2331
02:27:02,760 --> 02:27:05,320
unbelief.
Or we exercise it in belief

2332
02:27:06,040 --> 02:27:08,960
which one is we going to do We
we're going to go down the road

2333
02:27:08,960 --> 02:27:13,840
of of stories and deception or
or tell herself this and then

2334
02:27:13,840 --> 02:27:17,520
invest in that.
Or I would rather invest in you

2335
02:27:17,520 --> 02:27:20,160
know, I want the gospel.
I want the same faith that

2336
02:27:20,160 --> 02:27:23,600
Joseph Smith lived.
I want the same one that Brigham

2337
02:27:23,600 --> 02:27:26,520
Young did.
You know and and I don't want to

2338
02:27:26,720 --> 02:27:31,580
stand back and and and say man.
Well if I could have just lived

2339
02:27:31,580 --> 02:27:34,940
in their day when they when they
actually had the real gospel we

2340
02:27:34,940 --> 02:27:38,300
got we got some other watered
down thing and that's what makes

2341
02:27:38,300 --> 02:27:41,340
me feel like when you you start
reading Maccabees and some of

2342
02:27:41,340 --> 02:27:43,860
this stuff that these it's like
these guys they stood up and

2343
02:27:43,860 --> 02:27:47,380
they just says we're not going
to stand aside and do nothing

2344
02:27:47,660 --> 02:27:48,980
right.
We're going to, we're going to

2345
02:27:48,980 --> 02:27:50,900
make, we're going to do
something.

2346
02:27:51,060 --> 02:27:54,580
We're going to show God that
that this matters to us and

2347
02:27:55,220 --> 02:27:57,540
engage ourselves somewhere along
the way.

2348
02:27:59,580 --> 02:28:03,260
As fundamentalists, we were
content to lose the vision of

2349
02:28:03,260 --> 02:28:05,180
Joseph.
Right.

2350
02:28:05,500 --> 02:28:08,420
And And what I mean by that is
that we were really good at

2351
02:28:08,420 --> 02:28:11,100
holding on to plural marriage.
Right?

2352
02:28:11,460 --> 02:28:13,940
But we lost the vision about the
community.

2353
02:28:15,780 --> 02:28:17,860
I think I've said this on the
podcast before.

2354
02:28:18,180 --> 02:28:21,060
How many chapels did Joseph
Smith build in his lifetime?

2355
02:28:22,420 --> 02:28:25,660
Want to take a guess?
Zero.

2356
02:28:26,180 --> 02:28:30,170
Yeah, I was didn't build any.
He wanted communities and he

2357
02:28:30,170 --> 02:28:34,290
wanted temples.
Somewhere along the way we have

2358
02:28:34,290 --> 02:28:37,330
to recapture that vision and go
forward.

2359
02:28:37,330 --> 02:28:40,050
So I commend you guys for taking
that step.

2360
02:28:40,490 --> 02:28:46,370
Cuz I let me say this, I don't
think anything will bring forth

2361
02:28:46,370 --> 02:28:48,970
the heavens quite like
sacrificing for a temple.

2362
02:28:49,210 --> 02:28:51,690
Right.
And there are blessings to be

2363
02:28:51,690 --> 02:28:54,730
had there.
Absolutely, 100%.

2364
02:28:55,600 --> 02:28:57,840
Yeah.
Well, I I absolutely believe it.

2365
02:28:57,840 --> 02:29:04,400
And and you know again it's it's
like you take a look at yourself

2366
02:29:04,400 --> 02:29:09,040
and just say couldn't you doubt
plural marriage after you've you

2367
02:29:09,040 --> 02:29:11,920
know, but and yet there's many
people that haven't engaged in

2368
02:29:11,920 --> 02:29:16,160
it that would just say, but
Dave, could you be wrong And

2369
02:29:16,160 --> 02:29:19,400
you're like you're just like
look you're talking from a

2370
02:29:19,400 --> 02:29:21,560
theoretical standpoint.
I'm talking from.

2371
02:29:22,010 --> 02:29:24,050
A reality standpoint.
And they're two different

2372
02:29:24,050 --> 02:29:27,770
places.
And and and that's why I say God

2373
02:29:27,770 --> 02:29:30,170
gives us, He gives us a
testimony.

2374
02:29:30,610 --> 02:29:33,730
Especially when we really, you
know, when honesty tried to do

2375
02:29:33,730 --> 02:29:37,650
what he's asked us to do.
He gives us a testimony that

2376
02:29:37,650 --> 02:29:41,050
we're on the right track in this
doctrine or this principle that

2377
02:29:41,050 --> 02:29:43,790
we're believing in.
And so we don't have to live in

2378
02:29:43,790 --> 02:29:46,590
ignorance.
And you don't have to say, well,

2379
02:29:46,590 --> 02:29:49,670
I hope you know I'm going to
live till I die and just hope

2380
02:29:49,670 --> 02:29:52,870
that maybe I did right.
And I married this other lady

2381
02:29:52,870 --> 02:29:56,230
and raised these children and
this whole family and hopefully

2382
02:29:56,230 --> 02:29:59,150
I did right.
I just, I just think, no, we

2383
02:29:59,150 --> 02:30:02,430
don't have to live that way.
If we engage in our heart, he

2384
02:30:02,430 --> 02:30:05,390
will, He will give us a
testimony of our course and

2385
02:30:05,390 --> 02:30:12,870
we'll know whether it's pleasing
to him and again, being doers of

2386
02:30:12,870 --> 02:30:17,870
the word, not carers alone.
So, so an endowment house, and I

2387
02:30:17,870 --> 02:30:20,470
remember this from from early
church history.

2388
02:30:20,830 --> 02:30:24,910
So is vicarious work done in the
endowment house, or is it just

2389
02:30:25,110 --> 02:30:27,150
your you?
Know to your endowment.

2390
02:30:27,350 --> 02:30:30,070
It's it's a it's primarily just
for yours.

2391
02:30:30,150 --> 02:30:33,230
You know it as far as precedent
is concerned.

2392
02:30:33,230 --> 02:30:36,750
They did some vicarious work in
the endowment house, but it was

2393
02:30:36,750 --> 02:30:42,760
very, very select, very careful.
As far as endowments, actual

2394
02:30:42,760 --> 02:30:49,080
endowments for the dead, Brigham
Brigham taught that that must be

2395
02:30:49,080 --> 02:30:52,520
done in a temple.
There can be baptisms for the

2396
02:30:52,520 --> 02:30:55,680
dead.
There can be some others other

2397
02:30:55,680 --> 02:30:58,520
work for the dead.
But but the actual ordinance

2398
02:30:58,520 --> 02:31:03,480
that the the temple endowment
itself needs to be done in a

2399
02:31:03,480 --> 02:31:08,400
house prepared for that purpose,
a temple to be proper and.

2400
02:31:09,100 --> 02:31:13,900
As far you know, I mean if if
God wants to make exceptions for

2401
02:31:13,900 --> 02:31:18,900
that, I suppose he can.
But to me I just say why does he

2402
02:31:18,900 --> 02:31:21,500
need to?
If if that's what needs to be,

2403
02:31:21,500 --> 02:31:24,780
if that's what's right, then he
ought to have his children step

2404
02:31:24,780 --> 02:31:28,340
up and and be trying to fulfill
the law rather than to find out

2405
02:31:28,340 --> 02:31:30,340
it, find a justification around
it.

2406
02:31:30,780 --> 02:31:34,700
That's my my view of it.
How has it been received that

2407
02:31:35,340 --> 02:31:39,100
within the church itself that
that you guys are going forward

2408
02:31:39,100 --> 02:31:42,740
with?
Temple mixed reviews, mixed

2409
02:31:42,780 --> 02:31:45,460
reviews.
By and large, though by and

2410
02:31:45,460 --> 02:31:49,100
large it's it's, it's it's gone
rather well.

2411
02:31:49,100 --> 02:31:52,500
We've had, we've had a lot of
discussion over the years and

2412
02:31:52,500 --> 02:31:56,900
it's been an evolved process for
probably at least 15 years.

2413
02:31:57,340 --> 02:32:00,780
I mean, just getting people to
accept an endowment house was

2414
02:32:01,540 --> 02:32:08,910
was a big, big step and.
But it's taking the step even

2415
02:32:08,910 --> 02:32:11,390
from that to the temple is just
another big step.

2416
02:32:11,670 --> 02:32:15,870
But we've had a lot of love
classes and things that we've

2417
02:32:15,990 --> 02:32:19,830
we've done to try to prepare and
and give people opportunity to

2418
02:32:19,830 --> 02:32:24,110
ask questions, express their
fears and and you know and

2419
02:32:24,110 --> 02:32:29,110
really try to honestly address
the concerns that people have so

2420
02:32:29,110 --> 02:32:32,350
that you can move forward.
Because if you don't if you

2421
02:32:32,350 --> 02:32:34,710
can't move forward to the
building like that with the

2422
02:32:34,710 --> 02:32:36,880
people.
Why are you doing it?

2423
02:32:36,880 --> 02:32:38,800
Why would you do it?
Because it's going to sit empty

2424
02:32:38,800 --> 02:32:42,520
at that point.
It's about it's it's truly about

2425
02:32:42,520 --> 02:32:50,360
the people and and as far as I
concerned the temple, the the

2426
02:32:50,360 --> 02:32:55,600
building of the temple does as
much for character building as

2427
02:32:55,600 --> 02:32:59,760
going through it would, would,
would do for the spiritual

2428
02:32:59,760 --> 02:33:02,320
aspect and yet I never
understood that.

2429
02:33:02,650 --> 02:33:04,890
When I was one of these little
fundamentalist kids that would

2430
02:33:04,890 --> 02:33:08,490
go walk around the Salt Lake
Temple and dream of the day when

2431
02:33:08,570 --> 02:33:11,930
God would turn that over to us
and we got and we would get that

2432
02:33:11,930 --> 02:33:17,370
building right and.
And and now I and I look and I

2433
02:33:17,370 --> 02:33:19,690
go.
I'll always love to see that

2434
02:33:19,690 --> 02:33:24,170
building, but the whole picture
is different to me today.

2435
02:33:24,170 --> 02:33:27,690
Yeah, I say.
I'm kind of I'm I'm really

2436
02:33:27,690 --> 02:33:31,880
excited for you guys because in
this process I I know you'll be

2437
02:33:31,880 --> 02:33:36,520
blessed in in in getting a
temple up it's it's a huge step

2438
02:33:36,960 --> 02:33:40,840
and there are blessings the Lord
wants just not a temple

2439
02:33:40,840 --> 02:33:43,880
attending people but a temple
building people right.

2440
02:33:43,960 --> 02:33:45,560
And there is something to be
said.

2441
02:33:46,360 --> 02:33:51,000
I've never had the experience
but but sacrificing for that

2442
02:33:51,000 --> 02:33:55,280
opportunity, absolutely and.
And you you you know you listen

2443
02:33:55,440 --> 02:33:58,080
to those old stories and you
read in the Kirtland temple, the

2444
02:33:58,080 --> 02:34:02,280
novel temple the Salt Lake
temple Logan Manti and and these

2445
02:34:02,280 --> 02:34:07,560
people's lives I mean and they
would you know that was that

2446
02:34:07,560 --> 02:34:10,920
that was some of the greatest
meaning of their life was having

2447
02:34:10,920 --> 02:34:15,960
that privilege to be able to do
that and and to and to just

2448
02:34:15,960 --> 02:34:20,360
basically give your very best
and hand it to God and say this

2449
02:34:20,360 --> 02:34:26,090
is this is our very best.
And hopefully help establish

2450
02:34:26,090 --> 02:34:30,930
that covenant with him where he
says you're my people.

2451
02:34:31,290 --> 02:34:32,490
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

2452
02:34:33,330 --> 02:34:38,050
Is that under construction now?
Not, not physical construction,

2453
02:34:38,050 --> 02:34:42,530
it's in the, it's in the design.
It's in the design and and phase

2454
02:34:42,530 --> 02:34:48,810
right now, the the the drawing
and and design phase and we

2455
02:34:48,810 --> 02:34:51,210
don't even have really have a
location yet.

2456
02:34:52,050 --> 02:34:57,240
I'll tell you what, when you get
close to having that thing

2457
02:34:57,240 --> 02:34:59,800
built, you give me a call and
I'll go get it surveyed for you.

2458
02:35:00,320 --> 02:35:02,640
Really.
I will do it all for free.

2459
02:35:03,120 --> 02:35:06,680
Man, you're awesome.
I I I want to help you where I

2460
02:35:06,680 --> 02:35:09,520
can.
So you you you.

2461
02:35:09,520 --> 02:35:12,600
When you get to that point you
tell me and I will.

2462
02:35:13,080 --> 02:35:15,120
I'll do the layout on it.
Man, that.

2463
02:35:15,120 --> 02:35:18,360
Would be, I'd be great.
Well, and these are, these are

2464
02:35:18,360 --> 02:35:21,920
some of the the the blessings
that that the Lord gives to us.

2465
02:35:22,380 --> 02:35:27,900
To work together with all of his
children to to help create

2466
02:35:27,900 --> 02:35:32,220
something great and I go that's
that's what we're about that

2467
02:35:32,220 --> 02:35:37,900
truly and and and you know these
doctrinal differences that we

2468
02:35:37,900 --> 02:35:41,460
have are very easily easy to
solve.

2469
02:35:42,860 --> 02:35:44,700
You know I mean they they truly
are.

2470
02:35:44,700 --> 02:35:47,860
I mean God touch somebody's
heart and.

2471
02:35:48,350 --> 02:35:50,750
And just says, hey, you were a
little off there and you were a

2472
02:35:50,750 --> 02:35:53,350
little off there and you're
like, gosh, but now we actually

2473
02:35:53,350 --> 02:35:55,030
see quite a bit the same, don't
we?

2474
02:35:55,870 --> 02:36:00,070
And and I really believe when we
start working together for His

2475
02:36:00,070 --> 02:36:06,310
Kingdom instead of defending our
stories and our ego where we'll

2476
02:36:06,310 --> 02:36:08,030
we'll start to see a different
picture.

2477
02:36:08,150 --> 02:36:09,750
Absolutely.
No, I'm serious.

2478
02:36:09,750 --> 02:36:12,990
You give me a call if you need
help with engineering a civil.

2479
02:36:13,190 --> 02:36:15,110
Throw it my way.
I'll I'll find somebody.

2480
02:36:15,230 --> 02:36:16,230
Super.
I'll.

2481
02:36:16,230 --> 02:36:21,410
I'll.
I'll put that Bill K so we've

2482
02:36:21,410 --> 02:36:25,250
covered covered the big ones.
So how would you say you guys

2483
02:36:25,770 --> 02:36:28,930
most differ from the LDS church?
Because a lot of my LDS

2484
02:36:28,930 --> 02:36:30,810
listeners are going to be going
to ask for that.

2485
02:36:31,170 --> 02:36:32,490
They're going to walk in your
building.

2486
02:36:32,490 --> 02:36:34,210
How?
How are things going to be

2487
02:36:34,210 --> 02:36:39,130
different?
Primarily the the the main

2488
02:36:39,130 --> 02:36:43,130
differences that I see is that
is you know we we would

2489
02:36:43,130 --> 02:36:45,930
administer the sacrament, we
would do a lot of the things

2490
02:36:45,930 --> 02:36:48,780
that they would tend to see.
Although some of those

2491
02:36:48,780 --> 02:36:51,780
ordinances might be administered
differently, a little bit

2492
02:36:51,780 --> 02:36:58,740
differently, more more old
style, so to speak, using the

2493
02:36:58,740 --> 02:37:02,460
signs of the priesthood.
Yeah and and and like sacrament

2494
02:37:02,460 --> 02:37:06,020
you know type thing.
You know we we don't we we don't

2495
02:37:06,660 --> 02:37:10,660
pass the like of the tray down
along the line you know to

2496
02:37:10,660 --> 02:37:12,140
people.
I mean, it's individually

2497
02:37:12,140 --> 02:37:14,140
administered to each individual
person.

2498
02:37:14,140 --> 02:37:18,730
Things of that nature are are.
Are a little bit singular that

2499
02:37:18,730 --> 02:37:21,450
somebody would look at and go,
oh, OK that's a little different

2500
02:37:21,450 --> 02:37:25,050
than than we would do it.
But but administrations and and

2501
02:37:25,050 --> 02:37:27,810
things of that nature, I think
there's there's going to be

2502
02:37:27,810 --> 02:37:30,930
minor differences that people
would see.

2503
02:37:32,410 --> 02:37:40,450
Obviously there's there's not a
strong hierarchy so to speak in

2504
02:37:40,530 --> 02:37:43,050
you know like you would tend to
have more in the church.

2505
02:37:43,370 --> 02:37:46,890
We would probably.
Look our our group of people

2506
02:37:46,890 --> 02:37:50,410
would probably look a whole lot
more like a stake in the in a in

2507
02:37:51,090 --> 02:37:54,210
a church where there's different
wards that kind of come together

2508
02:37:54,210 --> 02:37:57,130
but you got a stake president
and a couple counselors and a

2509
02:37:57,130 --> 02:38:01,930
high council.
We don't have a 12 apostles in

2510
02:38:01,930 --> 02:38:05,610
our organization because we we
haven't felt that that that's a

2511
02:38:05,610 --> 02:38:09,770
need right now we're we're just
trying to to strengthen up the

2512
02:38:09,770 --> 02:38:13,460
base and.
What the Lord is trying to help

2513
02:38:13,460 --> 02:38:16,620
us to to get established and
we're not a large group of

2514
02:38:16,620 --> 02:38:22,860
people either like like some are
and and so there's I I see a

2515
02:38:22,860 --> 02:38:28,860
time when there when there will
be a need for the gospel to go

2516
02:38:28,860 --> 02:38:35,300
on more on a broader scale to
people all over the world and

2517
02:38:35,700 --> 02:38:39,980
and so I I do see a time when
that might happen but but by and

2518
02:38:39,980 --> 02:38:43,830
large had a.
Had a man during COVID, when the

2519
02:38:43,950 --> 02:38:47,590
Mormon church kind of shut down
and he couldn't go to church

2520
02:38:47,590 --> 02:38:48,830
anymore.
He started coming over to our

2521
02:38:48,830 --> 02:38:53,150
church and he was, and he was,
he'd really enjoyed it.

2522
02:38:53,630 --> 02:38:56,470
You know, even some of the
doctrine we talked about didn't

2523
02:38:56,470 --> 02:38:59,390
scare him, but he would, he just
would say things like this

2524
02:38:59,390 --> 02:39:04,630
reminds me of like like kind of
a small little ward out in the

2525
02:39:04,630 --> 02:39:07,150
middle of nowhere, you know,
where we all just kind of get

2526
02:39:07,150 --> 02:39:10,310
together, you guys and you talk
and and you're it's a lot more

2527
02:39:10,310 --> 02:39:13,120
personal.
Than a a big ward.

2528
02:39:13,120 --> 02:39:17,640
So a lot of similarities I'm I'm
guessing and probably we're

2529
02:39:17,640 --> 02:39:22,080
probably a lot more similar to
the the way their churches,

2530
02:39:22,080 --> 02:39:25,480
Mormon church is structured
today than we were in the past.

2531
02:39:25,760 --> 02:39:30,040
Gotcha, gotcha.
And then what about missionary

2532
02:39:30,040 --> 02:39:31,840
work?
You guys have missionaries or?

2533
02:39:32,200 --> 02:39:36,120
What we do have is we we tend to
have more of a service mission

2534
02:39:36,400 --> 02:39:38,640
right now rather than a
proselyting mission.

2535
02:39:40,120 --> 02:39:43,680
So we will have young young boys
come up and on and even the

2536
02:39:43,680 --> 02:39:47,680
girls and they would like to go
serve six months a year two

2537
02:39:47,680 --> 02:39:49,920
years whatever on a on a service
mission.

2538
02:39:49,920 --> 02:39:53,600
And and they will travel around
to the different communities and

2539
02:39:53,600 --> 02:39:57,120
just help on the projects like
help help people build houses

2540
02:39:57,120 --> 02:40:02,920
help the widows help take care
of of just any needs that might

2541
02:40:02,920 --> 02:40:07,240
be a part of that community.
And so we we we're associated

2542
02:40:07,240 --> 02:40:09,160
with communities in Missouri
and.

2543
02:40:09,490 --> 02:40:14,570
In Idaho, two or three different
places in Idaho, up in Canada,

2544
02:40:14,570 --> 02:40:19,810
down by Puebla, Mexico.
And so we'll send these

2545
02:40:19,810 --> 02:40:24,570
missionaries just to go and stay
in these communities and work

2546
02:40:25,050 --> 02:40:29,810
and not necessarily even say,
well, just serve our people.

2547
02:40:29,810 --> 02:40:32,010
It's like serve all of the
people.

2548
02:40:32,170 --> 02:40:37,650
Whoever yeah, whoever needs help
go serve them and and although

2549
02:40:37,650 --> 02:40:42,130
it's not a proselyting mission
you can still you can proselyte

2550
02:40:42,210 --> 02:40:47,810
as much by service as as as
actually preaching.

2551
02:40:48,890 --> 02:40:51,010
Absolutely.
And and so that's been a real

2552
02:40:51,010 --> 02:40:54,090
helpful thing.
One thing it tends to do as as

2553
02:40:54,090 --> 02:40:58,050
even in the Mormon church it
tends to grow up young men young

2554
02:40:58,050 --> 02:41:01,370
women and and and shows him a
bigger picture when they when

2555
02:41:01,370 --> 02:41:03,250
they commit to that kind of
service.

2556
02:41:04,530 --> 02:41:08,090
As far as Proselyting is
concerned like really dealing

2557
02:41:08,090 --> 02:41:13,370
with with converts that's
primarily done by more like

2558
02:41:13,370 --> 02:41:19,770
older seasoned individuals and
and that that might contact our

2559
02:41:19,770 --> 02:41:23,330
our group and say hey I've been
wondering about this and and

2560
02:41:23,330 --> 02:41:26,650
then you interact and and deal
with them almost like on A1 on

2561
02:41:26,650 --> 02:41:31,130
one missionary program rather
than rather than sending out

2562
02:41:31,370 --> 02:41:36,550
missionaries to go and go preach
the gospel and and try to gather

2563
02:41:36,550 --> 02:41:40,710
in converts.
It seems seems to me like it's

2564
02:41:40,750 --> 02:41:45,910
it's, I hate to say premature,
but when you're when there's so

2565
02:41:45,910 --> 02:41:48,630
much strengthening at home that
needs to be done.

2566
02:41:49,390 --> 02:41:53,510
There's so much missionary work
just strengthening the body of

2567
02:41:53,510 --> 02:41:55,190
of people.
That it?

2568
02:41:55,470 --> 02:41:58,070
It seems a little bit
counterintuitive to let those

2569
02:41:58,070 --> 02:42:01,750
slip away while you run and go
see if you can bring more in.

2570
02:42:02,830 --> 02:42:05,190
So that's kind of where we are
at this point.

2571
02:42:05,190 --> 02:42:10,430
Still evolving, but trying to
trying to take care of what has

2572
02:42:10,430 --> 02:42:12,550
kind of been put into our hands.
Gotcha.

2573
02:42:13,030 --> 02:42:18,510
If someone wanted to reach out
to to you guys to to to

2574
02:42:18,510 --> 02:42:20,390
investigate, is that something
that's possible?

2575
02:42:20,870 --> 02:42:25,110
How would they do that?
They contact me and you know,

2576
02:42:25,110 --> 02:42:28,470
and and of course everybody,
everybody knows you.

2577
02:42:28,790 --> 02:42:33,230
And then you could just say here
here's here's Steve's number,

2578
02:42:33,350 --> 02:42:36,590
call him, he's happy.
I'm at any given time.

2579
02:42:36,590 --> 02:42:39,350
I'm talking to two or three
different people at any given

2580
02:42:39,350 --> 02:42:43,350
time and I could certainly help
them or help direct them to

2581
02:42:44,150 --> 02:42:47,270
somebody more interesting.
You know, that's not a problem.

2582
02:42:47,270 --> 02:42:48,390
I.
Don't know, You seem pretty

2583
02:42:48,390 --> 02:42:50,550
interesting, so don't sell
yourself short.

2584
02:42:51,030 --> 02:42:52,790
How do you?
How do you view the mainstream

2585
02:42:52,790 --> 02:42:58,670
LDS church?
You know, growing up, growing up

2586
02:42:58,670 --> 02:43:02,640
had a lot of like almost to the
point where they, because of

2587
02:43:02,640 --> 02:43:05,920
some of the stories, they were
almost the enemy because of the

2588
02:43:05,920 --> 02:43:09,680
old fundamentalist stories.
You know, they they persecuted,

2589
02:43:09,680 --> 02:43:12,320
they got our fathers in prison,
they did this, they did.

2590
02:43:12,600 --> 02:43:16,440
And you know, maybe there were
individuals that did that, but

2591
02:43:16,440 --> 02:43:19,200
like most prejudice.
They're not alive today.

2592
02:43:20,560 --> 02:43:23,680
You know and I I go really
Prejudism is the child of

2593
02:43:23,680 --> 02:43:29,560
ignorance and and when you get
to know people and I've met some

2594
02:43:30,090 --> 02:43:34,210
absolutely fantastic people in
the Mormon church, not only some

2595
02:43:34,210 --> 02:43:38,050
of the leadership but just even
state presidents bishops and

2596
02:43:38,330 --> 02:43:41,530
different men that were living
their religion so much better

2597
02:43:41,530 --> 02:43:47,170
than than me or or even most
people that I knew you literally

2598
02:43:47,170 --> 02:43:52,610
they they literally was living
what they believed and and I

2599
02:43:52,610 --> 02:43:56,930
just just put all profound
respect towards them.

2600
02:43:57,890 --> 02:44:01,750
The church as a whole, I have a
problem.

2601
02:44:02,270 --> 02:44:05,270
I have a problem and it's
probably an obvious problem

2602
02:44:05,990 --> 02:44:10,510
because I feel like that they
have grown so big they've made

2603
02:44:10,510 --> 02:44:14,110
concessions.
They've had to make concessions.

2604
02:44:14,790 --> 02:44:21,230
Just just, even the tax free
status has made has has altered

2605
02:44:21,230 --> 02:44:23,390
decisions.
It's made them vulnerable

2606
02:44:23,550 --> 02:44:26,550
because they have to.
They have to do certain things

2607
02:44:26,550 --> 02:44:28,760
and I get it.
I'm not being hard on him.

2608
02:44:28,800 --> 02:44:33,520
I don't know what I would do if
I was staring at millions upon

2609
02:44:33,520 --> 02:44:35,640
millions of dollars by one
decision.

2610
02:44:36,280 --> 02:44:40,320
I don't know what I would do.
But to me, I feel like that

2611
02:44:40,320 --> 02:44:43,440
they've grown so big and they
have.

2612
02:44:43,440 --> 02:44:48,640
There's a need to be popular
that sometimes the fullness of

2613
02:44:48,640 --> 02:44:52,600
the gospel is not popular and so
we make concessions.

2614
02:44:53,080 --> 02:44:57,990
Individuals have been, I mean, I
mean profound individuals.

2615
02:44:57,990 --> 02:45:02,630
Hugh Nibli was, I mean even
fundamentalists that that knew

2616
02:45:02,630 --> 02:45:08,550
him and he knew them, they kind
of kept a quiet relationship.

2617
02:45:09,470 --> 02:45:13,150
But Hugh Nibli was just, you
know, was an incredible man.

2618
02:45:13,150 --> 02:45:17,950
And and many others they have, I
believe they really, really

2619
02:45:18,070 --> 02:45:20,870
helped establish Avraham
Giuliati.

2620
02:45:20,870 --> 02:45:23,830
Another just, you know, amazing
man.

2621
02:45:24,120 --> 02:45:27,480
You know, and and those those
types of personalities aren't

2622
02:45:27,480 --> 02:45:31,280
done in the LDS Church, right?
I just released an episode today

2623
02:45:31,280 --> 02:45:34,240
with Hannah Stoddard.
I think she does fantastic work

2624
02:45:34,600 --> 02:45:38,240
on keeping the original true
narrative of alive.

2625
02:45:39,160 --> 02:45:42,000
Kimberly Watson Smith.
I had her on an episode.

2626
02:45:42,280 --> 02:45:45,400
She made a better case for
plural marriage than most

2627
02:45:45,400 --> 02:45:48,280
fundamentalists I know, bar
none, right?

2628
02:45:49,280 --> 02:45:52,560
Ken Peterson, Great man.
Good scholar.

2629
02:45:53,270 --> 02:45:57,510
Did a whole book about Mormonism
in the Apocrypha finding Mormon

2630
02:45:57,510 --> 02:46:02,990
teachings and so he's there are
still people there and and I

2631
02:46:02,990 --> 02:46:07,390
agree with you and and here's
the other thing I've said and

2632
02:46:07,390 --> 02:46:14,030
this is both true strategically
but also true just on on a

2633
02:46:14,030 --> 02:46:20,710
personal level if we disagree
with the LDS church and we do

2634
02:46:21,460 --> 02:46:25,820
and we should.
However, if all we can do is

2635
02:46:25,820 --> 02:46:28,540
tell people what we're against
and never tell them what we're

2636
02:46:28,540 --> 02:46:32,780
for, why would you want to go
there?

2637
02:46:33,340 --> 02:46:37,740
As fundamentalist, we better get
into a position to where we can

2638
02:46:37,740 --> 02:46:39,700
start telling people what we're
for.

2639
02:46:40,380 --> 02:46:42,860
They'll figure out what we're
against, right?

2640
02:46:43,340 --> 02:46:44,860
But let's tell them what we're
for.

2641
02:46:45,300 --> 02:46:47,820
Let's tell them why it is we
believe, what we believe and

2642
02:46:47,820 --> 02:46:50,420
what the blessings are.
And the rest will take care of

2643
02:46:50,420 --> 02:46:52,310
itself.
So I agree with you.

2644
02:46:52,350 --> 02:46:55,190
I I'm not a big fan of bashing
on the LDS church.

2645
02:46:55,190 --> 02:46:57,710
I'll certainly call a spade a
spade when I feel like it's

2646
02:46:57,710 --> 02:47:01,670
necessary.
But there's a way to do that

2647
02:47:01,750 --> 02:47:05,470
where you're leveling fair
criticism and not just spouting

2648
02:47:05,470 --> 02:47:06,710
at the lip because you're
pissed.

2649
02:47:07,310 --> 02:47:09,430
Yeah, And and that that, to me
is huge.

2650
02:47:09,430 --> 02:47:13,030
So well, and I appreciate it.
I've really appreciated like you

2651
02:47:13,030 --> 02:47:15,910
know, I mean I've read I didn't
know who Hannah Stoddard was.

2652
02:47:15,910 --> 02:47:19,790
I end out reading some of her
stuff and and I really impressed

2653
02:47:19,790 --> 02:47:22,040
with with.
I think probably the thing that

2654
02:47:22,040 --> 02:47:24,840
impressed me the most with her
was there was a sense of

2655
02:47:24,840 --> 02:47:30,840
goodness about her and this real
genuineness that wanted to to

2656
02:47:33,320 --> 02:47:36,480
continue to hold the name of the
Prophet Joseph in reverence

2657
02:47:36,480 --> 02:47:39,560
instead of instead of almost
degrading him to make him feel

2658
02:47:39,560 --> 02:47:43,610
like he's just as just about on
the same caliber as most of us

2659
02:47:43,610 --> 02:47:45,330
guys.
You know, and I know he was

2660
02:47:45,330 --> 02:47:48,170
human that and there's there is
that balance that needs to be

2661
02:47:48,170 --> 02:47:49,930
there.
But it almost seems like that it

2662
02:47:49,930 --> 02:47:52,730
became it started to become
popular and a little bit in

2663
02:47:52,730 --> 02:47:56,570
vogue to to make the prophet
Joseph just a little more of an

2664
02:47:56,570 --> 02:48:01,850
idiot than he was and he was he
was an amazing man and I mean

2665
02:48:01,850 --> 02:48:07,630
highly gifted of God and blessed
just a tremendous individual and

2666
02:48:07,870 --> 02:48:10,910
and I'm really impressed when I
see people like that it it

2667
02:48:10,910 --> 02:48:17,150
really gives me a newfound hope
in that there's a lot of good

2668
02:48:17,190 --> 02:48:20,310
good people in the Mormon church
today.

2669
02:48:21,230 --> 02:48:24,470
Kimberly Watson Smith I again
didn't even know her and read

2670
02:48:24,470 --> 02:48:27,670
some of her writings and and and
just things that she said listen

2671
02:48:27,670 --> 02:48:31,390
to the podcast and just just I
just go wow.

2672
02:48:31,430 --> 02:48:35,650
They just you know it it it
feels so good when you're when

2673
02:48:35,650 --> 02:48:39,610
you're just even wanting to
fight a battle to think there's

2674
02:48:39,610 --> 02:48:43,250
people like that fighting in the
same direction that you want to

2675
02:48:43,250 --> 02:48:45,130
fight.
You're just like you're just

2676
02:48:45,130 --> 02:48:47,730
like OK, so we got a few
differences.

2677
02:48:48,570 --> 02:48:51,210
Yeah hey let's let's let's not
worry about that.

2678
02:48:51,210 --> 02:48:53,250
Let's let's stay focused on
this.

2679
02:48:54,530 --> 02:48:57,810
Yeah, I get goosebumps every
time I think about this because

2680
02:48:57,810 --> 02:49:00,770
this came to me quickly one
night.

2681
02:49:02,900 --> 02:49:08,060
As I was praying about things,
and this podcast has made me

2682
02:49:08,060 --> 02:49:12,180
hopeful because for a while I
was like, oh, we're so far

2683
02:49:12,180 --> 02:49:13,580
apart.
I don't know what's going to

2684
02:49:13,580 --> 02:49:15,660
happen.
You know, how are we going to

2685
02:49:15,660 --> 02:49:19,940
get this all done?
Here's what I've come to learn

2686
02:49:19,940 --> 02:49:23,700
by reading scripture.
Our God is a God that loves a

2687
02:49:23,700 --> 02:49:28,220
dramatic ending.
If there's one thing I know for

2688
02:49:28,220 --> 02:49:31,100
sure about evil, it always
overplays its hand.

2689
02:49:32,980 --> 02:49:37,380
I don't know how it all works,
but I believe this to my core.

2690
02:49:38,100 --> 02:49:43,300
At some point it's going to look
really, really, really bad for

2691
02:49:43,300 --> 02:49:46,060
us.
And when I say us, I'm not

2692
02:49:46,060 --> 02:49:49,940
talking just fundamentalist,
traditional LDS folks in the LDS

2693
02:49:49,940 --> 02:49:52,860
church.
And God's just going to say

2694
02:49:52,980 --> 02:49:56,980
stand with everyone he's working
with and evil will be

2695
02:49:56,980 --> 02:50:01,330
surrounded.
As I've done the podcast and

2696
02:50:01,330 --> 02:50:03,810
I've seen different people from
different walks of life

2697
02:50:03,810 --> 02:50:07,570
expressing Mormonism and
fundamentalism in the ways they

2698
02:50:07,570 --> 02:50:11,970
do, I'm less inclined to say, Oh
no, they're off base, they're

2699
02:50:11,970 --> 02:50:13,770
out of order or any of those
other things.

2700
02:50:14,210 --> 02:50:16,810
I tend to look at it as no,
they're doing what they're

2701
02:50:16,810 --> 02:50:19,170
supposed to.
God's got him right where they

2702
02:50:19,170 --> 02:50:22,450
want to be, right where they
need to be in order to be of the

2703
02:50:22,450 --> 02:50:26,890
most service to him and mankind.
And I firmly believe that.

2704
02:50:27,690 --> 02:50:31,280
Yeah.
And and and I I tend to, I tend

2705
02:50:31,280 --> 02:50:34,160
to look at this viewpoint for me
and it's helpful for me.

2706
02:50:35,360 --> 02:50:39,640
It's to instead of worrying
about, you know what group

2707
02:50:39,640 --> 02:50:43,240
somebody's in or or even what
group is more right or whatever

2708
02:50:43,240 --> 02:50:45,280
it is.
I look and I say, I say What I'm

2709
02:50:45,280 --> 02:50:49,200
really more interested in is the
principles of the gospel and

2710
02:50:49,200 --> 02:50:51,960
those that want to espouse those
principles of the gospel.

2711
02:50:51,960 --> 02:50:56,360
The fullness of the gospel is to
me is is you know, and if I see

2712
02:50:56,360 --> 02:51:02,620
that being done, you know in the
in the mainstream LDS church, I

2713
02:51:02,620 --> 02:51:06,100
want to support and and do
anything I could for that.

2714
02:51:06,660 --> 02:51:09,780
And if I when I see, when I see
the fullness of the gospel being

2715
02:51:09,780 --> 02:51:13,740
destroyed among fundamentalism,
then I want to I want to stop

2716
02:51:13,740 --> 02:51:18,380
that or or at least raise a
voice against that because it's

2717
02:51:18,380 --> 02:51:22,580
really to me it's far more I I
get it and I don't want to to

2718
02:51:22,620 --> 02:51:24,460
act like the authority doesn't
matter.

2719
02:51:24,460 --> 02:51:28,300
I know there's there's authority
and God acknowledges Prophet

2720
02:51:28,300 --> 02:51:29,700
Joseph.
You know there's there's no

2721
02:51:29,700 --> 02:51:32,420
salvation between the lids of
the Bible without a legal

2722
02:51:32,420 --> 02:51:34,220
administrator.
I get that.

2723
02:51:35,100 --> 02:51:39,780
I know that that's important.
But what I'm more concerned

2724
02:51:39,860 --> 02:51:46,060
that's a simple matter for God.
It's it's not a simple matter to

2725
02:51:46,060 --> 02:51:50,060
get Saints.
And so that's the thing, is, is

2726
02:51:50,340 --> 02:51:54,700
and people to even understand
the fullness of the gospel, let

2727
02:51:54,700 --> 02:51:56,900
alone endeavor to live it.
Right.

2728
02:51:57,290 --> 02:52:01,250
I mean you know people to say
you know what, well and again

2729
02:52:01,250 --> 02:52:04,250
it's it's better than nothing
but to say, well, we'll live

2730
02:52:04,250 --> 02:52:05,890
plural marriage in the next
life.

2731
02:52:06,850 --> 02:52:10,610
And I'm just there's part of me
that goes having engaged in that

2732
02:52:10,610 --> 02:52:14,210
I'm like well good luck trying.
That right, right.

2733
02:52:14,810 --> 02:52:20,290
Because it about takes all that
you can do with you got a human

2734
02:52:20,290 --> 02:52:23,170
body to work with.
And I don't know how that would

2735
02:52:23,170 --> 02:52:26,580
work in the next life, right.
But but I'll tell you, there's

2736
02:52:26,580 --> 02:52:29,860
something, there is something
about this life experience.

2737
02:52:30,740 --> 02:52:35,820
To engage in it, to live it, and
to at least that make a good

2738
02:52:36,220 --> 02:52:40,660
solid attempt at the fullness of
the gospel, has the ability and

2739
02:52:40,660 --> 02:52:44,620
the power to help make Saints
out of people and to throw it

2740
02:52:44,620 --> 02:52:48,060
into a theoretical perspective
that says someday down the road

2741
02:52:48,260 --> 02:52:51,860
we'll get to live this way.
I'm just not sure how that's

2742
02:52:51,860 --> 02:52:53,580
going to work.
No, it doesn't make sense, does

2743
02:52:53,580 --> 02:52:54,300
it?
Right.

2744
02:52:54,300 --> 02:52:56,300
No.
Not not when.

2745
02:52:56,300 --> 02:53:00,780
When as Mormons we've been
raised with this this I this

2746
02:53:01,020 --> 02:53:04,380
perspective this eternal
perspective or that preexistence

2747
02:53:04,380 --> 02:53:09,300
and now this where do you see
Mormonism going as a whole and

2748
02:53:09,300 --> 02:53:16,260
fundamentalism you know that's
that's that's really is a tough

2749
02:53:16,260 --> 02:53:21,540
question I I got a brother.
I've got a brother that that

2750
02:53:21,540 --> 02:53:26,940
left our society and he joined
the Mormon church and and he

2751
02:53:26,940 --> 02:53:30,980
since left the Mormon church and
primarily not because he's lost

2752
02:53:30,980 --> 02:53:35,100
his faith but he just says I
just don't like the directs and

2753
02:53:35,100 --> 02:53:38,060
this is going.
He says there's good good people

2754
02:53:38,060 --> 02:53:40,740
here.
He just says, but he says I

2755
02:53:40,740 --> 02:53:44,780
start seeing people, you know?
And he said when leadership

2756
02:53:44,780 --> 02:53:49,650
starts joining hands with some
of the big political

2757
02:53:49,650 --> 02:53:53,970
organizations of this world, he
just says, he just says we're

2758
02:53:54,130 --> 02:53:58,050
we're selling things away.
And he just says I'm I'm really

2759
02:53:58,050 --> 02:54:02,090
nervous about this and this
COVID thing, I I know it shook

2760
02:54:02,090 --> 02:54:07,010
up a lot of people and for good
reason I think.

2761
02:54:07,010 --> 02:54:08,690
I think we needed to be shook
up.

2762
02:54:12,290 --> 02:54:17,800
You know I I I would like to say
that we could all just kind of

2763
02:54:17,800 --> 02:54:21,800
get on the same track and would
all accept the fullness of the

2764
02:54:21,800 --> 02:54:26,560
gospel and and we could all kind
of come back together and become

2765
02:54:26,560 --> 02:54:31,440
one big beautiful people.
But I'm probably if if that is

2766
02:54:31,440 --> 02:54:36,040
does happen I I see it probably
not in my lifetime and let but

2767
02:54:36,200 --> 02:54:41,600
unless some really radical
things shake people up because

2768
02:54:42,120 --> 02:54:45,600
this in just psychologically
speaking when you start

2769
02:54:45,600 --> 02:54:49,640
investing in a story and you
invest in that story for very

2770
02:54:49,640 --> 02:54:53,480
long.
It's a difficult job to stop and

2771
02:54:53,480 --> 02:54:58,280
turn around and say maybe this
this maybe this wasn't right.

2772
02:54:59,120 --> 02:55:01,960
I mean, you would see it in the
fundamentalist people see it in

2773
02:55:01,960 --> 02:55:07,200
the Mormon church, probably is
as concerned as I've ever been

2774
02:55:07,640 --> 02:55:10,760
is when I start seeing a
softening towards this woke

2775
02:55:10,760 --> 02:55:12,440
ideology.
Right.

2776
02:55:12,720 --> 02:55:16,760
I that's just that to me it
starts to it starts to make me

2777
02:55:16,760 --> 02:55:22,880
go we we're we're in trouble.
We're in trouble if we start.

2778
02:55:23,120 --> 02:55:27,760
I mean we literally, I mean
we're we're buying into Satan's

2779
02:55:27,760 --> 02:55:31,840
system and and and if you want
to say it on a broad scale and I

2780
02:55:31,840 --> 02:55:33,480
don't care whether it's
fundamentalism.

2781
02:55:33,480 --> 02:55:37,000
I don't care whether it's LDS or
Christian or Catholic or

2782
02:55:37,000 --> 02:55:41,100
whatever it is when we we buy
into that that is just it's it's

2783
02:55:41,180 --> 02:55:47,620
it's anti God and and I just and
I go that that terrifies me

2784
02:55:47,620 --> 02:55:50,780
probably as much as anything
that we there will ever be a

2785
02:55:50,780 --> 02:55:55,380
reconciliation.
I've almost gotten to the point

2786
02:55:55,380 --> 02:55:56,900
where I don't think there will
be.

2787
02:56:01,180 --> 02:55:59,220
I I I.
I think the reconciliation comes

2788
02:55:59,220 --> 02:56:02,660
when the Savior does.
Honestly, do.

2789
02:56:03,220 --> 02:56:06,620
But in some ways that should be
liberating too.

2790
02:56:06,940 --> 02:56:09,340
Because now.
Now we don't have to wait

2791
02:56:09,340 --> 02:56:12,300
anymore, Steven.
Right now we can just go about

2792
02:56:12,300 --> 02:56:16,140
the work of doing what our
forebears did, probably your

2793
02:56:16,140 --> 02:56:19,460
forebears, I'm, I'm the only
bearer in my family.

2794
02:56:19,460 --> 02:56:25,500
But to to go forward and do the
work that that Joseph did, that

2795
02:56:25,540 --> 02:56:29,100
brigging did that are that that
those ancestors did and carving

2796
02:56:29,100 --> 02:56:32,260
out in existence out of the
wilderness, we get to do it all

2797
02:56:32,260 --> 02:56:35,780
over again, right.
And that's great that that's

2798
02:56:35,780 --> 02:56:39,420
opportunity that's that's a
chance to do it again.

2799
02:56:39,820 --> 02:56:43,980
Absolutely it is.
It's it's not only liberating

2800
02:56:43,980 --> 02:56:48,700
it's it's energizing in the
sense to to really because your

2801
02:56:48,700 --> 02:56:53,300
faith your faith in Mormonism
becomes more real.

2802
02:56:53,980 --> 02:56:58,660
And and to me like I said before
when I meet the Prophet Joseph

2803
02:56:59,420 --> 02:57:04,100
you know I would like to be able
to look at him and at least in

2804
02:57:04,100 --> 02:57:08,760
some small measure say I live
the same gospel you did.

2805
02:57:09,120 --> 02:57:12,520
I tried.
I understand in a small measure

2806
02:57:13,720 --> 02:57:17,640
you what what the fullness meant
right now I don't know whether

2807
02:57:17,640 --> 02:57:21,800
I'll ever get there.
To me it's it's far more I doubt

2808
02:57:21,800 --> 02:57:24,680
sometimes my own my own
righteousness.

2809
02:57:25,640 --> 02:57:29,760
But what I do want to be is I do
want to be fighting on the right

2810
02:57:29,760 --> 02:57:31,960
side.
Yeah, that's.

2811
02:57:32,320 --> 02:57:35,600
I don't want to get over there
and find out I I've been.

2812
02:57:35,980 --> 02:57:37,780
I've been fighting on somebody
else's side.

2813
02:57:39,020 --> 02:57:42,660
No, I agree.
Anything else you want to go

2814
02:57:42,660 --> 02:57:46,860
over, you know, it's good, good
wrap up.

2815
02:57:46,860 --> 02:57:51,580
I think there's 11 idea and I
was thinking about this, just

2816
02:57:51,580 --> 02:57:56,340
remembering an experience that I
had several years ago and I

2817
02:57:56,340 --> 02:57:59,540
think it'd probably be a good
kind of a good summing up of

2818
02:57:59,540 --> 02:58:06,500
everything I had to I don't
claim a lot of real spiritual

2819
02:58:06,580 --> 02:58:10,420
experiences in the sense of
divine angels and things.

2820
02:58:10,420 --> 02:58:12,420
I've had some profound dreams
and I've had.

2821
02:58:12,620 --> 02:58:16,100
I've had a fair amount of some
real inspiring things that

2822
02:58:16,100 --> 02:58:19,940
happened to me.
But I I I had an experience

2823
02:58:19,940 --> 02:58:23,540
years ago where I saw something
and it was for a very brief

2824
02:58:23,540 --> 02:58:29,100
moment, but it made a huge
impact in the in the in the way

2825
02:58:29,100 --> 02:58:33,790
I view things.
And I can't describe it because

2826
02:58:33,790 --> 02:58:35,550
I don't know have words to
describe it.

2827
02:58:35,550 --> 02:58:39,830
But as close as I can get to it,
it was like looking at a puzzle.

2828
02:58:39,830 --> 02:58:45,870
It was like looking at a giant
puzzle and every piece fit and

2829
02:58:45,870 --> 02:58:50,910
it fit very nicely and every
piece mattered to that place to

2830
02:58:50,910 --> 02:58:56,150
make the picture whole.
And we each had a piece.

2831
02:58:56,150 --> 02:58:58,390
We each had our piece that that
fit.

2832
02:58:58,790 --> 02:59:03,840
And the greatest joy came to us
when we fit in our place.

2833
02:59:05,080 --> 02:59:09,600
Instead of each individual
wanting to be a corner, an edge,

2834
02:59:09,600 --> 02:59:14,440
or whatever it was, we all fit.
We all fit in our place.

2835
02:59:15,440 --> 02:59:21,280
And it was important that we all
make sure that all the pieces

2836
02:59:21,280 --> 02:59:25,800
are there.
And maybe that metaphor works

2837
02:59:25,800 --> 02:59:30,030
because as a as a kid I used to
do puzzles with my mother was

2838
02:59:30,270 --> 02:59:32,750
just a little kid and then she'd
sit down, we'd do puzzles

2839
02:59:32,750 --> 02:59:35,230
together.
We'd we'd always go buy them

2840
02:59:35,230 --> 02:59:38,830
from the second hand store.
And so invariably there's a

2841
02:59:38,830 --> 02:59:43,550
piece or two missing, you know
and you'd get to the end of this

2842
02:59:43,550 --> 02:59:47,070
puzzle and there's one piece
missing and you're searching

2843
02:59:47,070 --> 02:59:53,670
everywhere for it and and it's
incomplete and I'll do puzzles

2844
02:59:53,670 --> 02:59:57,270
with my kids today.
And purposefully, I I take, I

2845
02:59:57,270 --> 02:59:59,310
take a piece out and I put it in
my pocket.

2846
03:00:00,850 --> 03:00:03,970
To make a point.
And there we are and we're all

2847
03:00:03,970 --> 03:00:06,450
frantically searching for that
last piece.

2848
03:00:07,210 --> 03:00:10,650
And finally I'll just pull it
out of my pocket and complete

2849
03:00:10,650 --> 03:00:14,890
the puzzle.
And and and they all, they all

2850
03:00:15,570 --> 03:00:20,210
taste that picture and what that
means.

2851
03:00:21,010 --> 03:00:25,450
And when we can start to look at
things, look at our brothers and

2852
03:00:25,450 --> 03:00:28,330
sisters and look at God's
children as pieces of that

2853
03:00:28,330 --> 03:00:32,400
puzzle and realize that the
puzzle isn't complete.

2854
03:00:32,400 --> 03:00:40,000
If we lose one and we we we pick
up a a an attitude of service

2855
03:00:40,400 --> 03:00:44,240
instead of our own ego.
It doesn't have to be about my

2856
03:00:44,240 --> 03:00:48,960
piece making the picture.
It's just I want to, I want to I

2857
03:00:48,960 --> 03:00:51,680
want to be a piece.
I just want to be a piece of of

2858
03:00:51,680 --> 03:00:57,360
God's work and and I want to
help other people fit in their

2859
03:00:57,360 --> 03:01:02,470
place and be who they need to be
And this doesn't have to be a

2860
03:01:02,470 --> 03:01:06,830
competition who's greater than
who or who got the highest

2861
03:01:06,830 --> 03:01:11,430
authority then then who and
where we all stand.

2862
03:01:11,430 --> 03:01:15,430
I I go somebody said what by
what authority are you guys

2863
03:01:15,430 --> 03:01:19,750
doing what you do.
And I just said, got all the

2864
03:01:19,750 --> 03:01:23,430
authority in the world to do
good and to do right.

2865
03:01:23,430 --> 03:01:27,110
And when you do right, that's
God's authority.

2866
03:01:28,240 --> 03:01:32,320
And so God gives us the
authority and the power to do

2867
03:01:32,320 --> 03:01:37,400
good and to and to help His
church and His Kingdom and

2868
03:01:37,400 --> 03:01:42,560
whatever hey way he wants us to.
And so for me to sum up, I I'm

2869
03:01:42,560 --> 03:01:45,520
not so worried where other
people are or what other people

2870
03:01:45,800 --> 03:01:51,080
feel like they should be doing.
I I I've said this to many

2871
03:01:51,080 --> 03:01:53,560
people.
Who are you guys?

2872
03:01:53,600 --> 03:01:57,280
And I said, well, for me, we're
just or a tree in the nethermost

2873
03:01:57,280 --> 03:02:00,000
part of the vineyard.
Try and like hell to keep it

2874
03:02:00,000 --> 03:02:06,200
from dying and maybe we can help
the Kingdom as a whole grow by

2875
03:02:06,200 --> 03:02:09,320
keeping one part of the Kingdom
alive.

2876
03:02:10,040 --> 03:02:13,440
So that's kind of a probably a
sum up.

2877
03:02:14,000 --> 03:02:15,720
Dude, that's beautiful.
That's awesome.

2878
03:02:18,120 --> 03:02:20,480
We've gone 3 hours.
Holy smokes.

2879
03:02:20,480 --> 03:02:22,280
Goes quick, doesn't it?
Yeah.

2880
03:02:23,350 --> 03:02:25,150
It goes quick for me, You
talking to me.

2881
03:02:25,150 --> 03:02:29,030
That might be longer for you.
But I I sure appreciate you

2882
03:02:29,030 --> 03:02:31,950
Steven and and I've loved the
conversation and I've said this

2883
03:02:31,950 --> 03:02:35,750
before if you've been on here
once you have standing

2884
03:02:35,750 --> 03:02:37,630
invitation to come back anytime
you want.

2885
03:02:38,150 --> 03:02:40,630
You let me know what works for
you, but let's definitely do

2886
03:02:40,630 --> 03:02:42,590
this again.
I really, really enjoyed this.

2887
03:02:42,590 --> 03:02:45,430
Well, we'll we'll we'll see what
feedback you get and how much

2888
03:02:45,430 --> 03:02:49,830
hate mail you get.
And you know, we'll sure not

2889
03:02:49,830 --> 03:02:50,910
want to do that again.
Do.

2890
03:02:50,910 --> 03:02:53,950
You know, no, it's good.
Most of the hate mail I get is

2891
03:02:53,950 --> 03:02:56,870
because of what I do.
So you most most of the time,

2892
03:02:57,030 --> 03:03:02,790
quite honestly, Dave, the thing
that I love to be a part of

2893
03:03:02,790 --> 03:03:06,230
things that are growing and I
love to see people that are

2894
03:03:06,230 --> 03:03:10,510
trying, be they in the Mormon
church and or in any

2895
03:03:10,590 --> 03:03:12,430
fundamentalist group, whatever
they are.

2896
03:03:12,990 --> 03:03:15,910
If you believe in the fullness
of the everlasting gospel, and

2897
03:03:15,910 --> 03:03:18,630
you're willing to, you're
willing to have enough courage

2898
03:03:18,630 --> 03:03:22,260
to step out and do something
about it, you're my friend.

2899
03:03:22,340 --> 03:03:24,700
Oh, I appreciate that.
I can feel the same way about

2900
03:03:24,700 --> 03:03:25,580
you.
So.

2901
03:03:25,820 --> 03:03:27,540
And.
Yeah, absolutely.

2902
03:03:27,820 --> 03:03:28,980
All right.
Awesome.

2903
03:03:28,980 --> 03:03:30,060
Thanks so much.
OK.

2904
03:03:30,980 --> 03:03:55,710
Bye, everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2905
03:03:55,710 --> 03:03:57,030
Renegade podcast.