Episode #82: The Life & Ministry Of Joseph W. Musser Part 1 W/Michael Ness

0:03 So I have to tell you, I am super excited about these next two episodes. This week and next week I'll be releasing episodes about a man who, in my estimation, might be considered the godfather of 95% of Mormon fundamentalism, Joseph W Muster. I have Matt Michael Ness on who has done some amazing research and knows his stuff on muster. On this part one about Muster, we discussed Muster's early life as a boy, including his interactions with Pioneer era leaders of the LDS church, the role in example his father played in his life, his entering into plural marriage post manifesto, and his nineteen O 9 disciplinary council Along the way. In this conversation you'll become a witness through muster of a time in the LDS Church where the fullness of the gospel was trying to be lived while enemies of the fullness are applying pressure both within and without the LDS church. As the events that would forever alter the course of the LDS Church are taking place.

0:55 Brother Muster is right in the middle of it all. On this episode, not only will you come to a better understanding of Brother Muster, but also the Mormon fundamentalist movement as a whole. Stick around for an amazing conversation on this episode of the Mormon Renegade Podcast. Look, it's no secret that our society has become much more crude and coarse to become and raise men and women of virtue and characters, a herculean task. To help with this, I've recently wrote and published a book. Now, back in the 1700s, Washington had a book called Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior and Company and Conversation. It was a book with 110 rules that talked about how to conduct yourself like a civilized person in society, something that today's society is sorely lacking.

1:40 What I did is I went back through the book and I reinterpreted his original sayings for the 21st century. So the book is laid out in a way in which you see Washington's original rule. Right below that is my explanation for the 21st century, and below that you'll find two or three examples of where to use this in the real world. Now, to go along with this, there's a workbook that helps parents teach these principles and practices to their kids. To find the book, go to mormonrenegade.com, go to the bottom of the page, search out the blog post, and order your copy. Today I can bear personal testimony from personal experience that this is an invaluable tool to help you raise men and women of virtue and character.

2:43 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Dude, how's it going? It's going good. Tell me about tell me about what? It's like being a dad now. Oh, it's all sorts of joy. I don't think there's one bad thing about it so far, yeah. No, not at all. You got a super, super nervous at first obviously and but no, it's it's a joy. Even when he's trying his head off, it's just like. Dude, why you have to be so cute when you're when you're doing that, I don't know. And of course, other people around me don't always feel the same, but at least I think he's always pretty. Let me let me tell you something, because if I'm not mistaken, there's about 20 years between you and I. And here's the thing.

3:32 What's that? That's possible. Yep. Yep. As you pointed out last episode we did today. But as as and as my kid, my older kids started growing and leaving home, what I noticed was you freak out way more about your own kid crying than you do about anybody else's, right? And for people whose kids have left home, it just brings back memories, is all right. So never get too selfconscious about that because really at the end of the day, it's not a big deal at all. You guys sleeping through the night yet? Yeah, I don't have a problem with that generally. It doesn't seem like, And he's not terrible. He's not terrible by any stretches of the imagination. Only problem I have sleeping is it's so darn hot here sometimes, and that's a whole another issue. Dude, it's hot here, but it's a dry heat, right? I'd prefer that in the middle.

4:33 I was just out in Idaho, right. And when we saw each other last you know did working in that he I'd do that and he I'll take that. 10 times out of 10, overworking and humidity, dude, I'll tell you what, I've worked in like Phoenix and and you know Arizona down in Tucson and I'll take 120 if it's a dry heat, right? If if I remember working on the East Coast and it was 80 degrees with 80% humidity and I'm like, I'm done, I'm done. Pack it in. Yeah, I don't know what the humidity level was today, but you know, so I I was cramming for this thing before we got on because I actually did have some work today and it was 88 degrees, but the feel like was 99.

5:17 And so I don't know what that factors in percentage wise for humidity, but yeah, that was a that's a big. Jumped in the heat index. But anyways, we can talk about weather all day long and not get anywhere. Absolutely. So dude, we're about to have a pretty epic conversation here about about someone who who in fundamentalism casts a large shadow in a good way. I. Know, I've heard him called the godfather of the Mormon fundamentalism before. Yeah. And there's certain people in fundamentalism that leave that shadow. But I, you know, you could certainly look at Ogden Kraut, you could look at at the sitting brother sitting, you could look at Brother Allred. But they all seem to kind of start with Joseph Musser. And that's kind of what we wanted to talk about here a little bit.

6:14 When you first said that you had a bunch of information on Musser, my eye I I perked up quite a bit because I feel like with with Ruin Allred, we have a lot of information on him, right? We have books, you know that, that he wrote his compiled teachings and those are absolutely fantastic. I have treasures of knowledge that were were given to me as a gift. And I'll tell you what, I go to those about once, not once, probably two or three times a week just because they're great. But I I find that we don't necessarily have that with muster, right? Yeah, as far as the collected works like sermons, you're right, the there was a collaboration between the group known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in the Kingdom of God or the shorthand version as the Nielsen Naylor Group.

7:12 There's a collaboration between them with Ivan Nielsen and the Allreds where they put together a a book. The spanned the sermons from 1940 to 45. That's actually like, but that's such a small fragment of his, you know, tenure as as a leader, right? But it's good. I've read it. I've gone through it all. I wish I had a personal copy of it. That's pretty good. I I probably will get one you know, to eventually. But I got some quotes out of it for this presentation because when I was reading it, I snagged a lot of cool things that I thought were. You know, stood out. You know, historically they were significant.

7:54 Awesome. Pack rat for For anything history on this kind of, you know, this kind of deal, right. OK, so before we jump into a lot of the teachings, let's just give let's give an idea of who Musser was. Oh yeah, I wanted to. I wanted to start by talking about his father. I don't think that we're going to be able. I don't think we're going to do with this, man. As good a justice as we could if we don't start with his with his birthright and but I would like to preface before we dive into that even you know Joseph Musser everyone everyone in in Mormon fundamentalism wants to own Joseph Musser as their guy like he he is connected in one way shape or form and we're going to see this by the way he he's everyone's guy and and so. Coming from where I'm coming from I know people on both sides of this of the of splits that have happened right and and kind of these things that happened formed party lines right where it's OK so whose guy was he really and and but so I I don't I'm not intending to make one group or one claim sound better than the other with us whatsoever and I so I don't. Mean to do that if that's what it comes across as doing because I have friends in all camps with with this and so I want those friends who are listening to this to know that I'm not trying to to you know I'm not an Allred and I'm not not an Allred either necessarily.

9:27 I really think ultimately when that happened in the 50s, everyone lost something ultimately and and if it could have been avoided. Into the degree that it happened. And there's always going to be splits or people are always going to apostatize. But I don't think that division in the night in the early 50s was really as worth splitting over as it as it turned out to be. And we're going to, we're going to kind of see that and and I hope that people who have been kind of entrenched in that can kind of that be helped when they through this presentation. Sure. And see if things have been differently.

10:08 And so I'm not attacking anyone, it's just. This is my take on, like you said, all the the sources that I've accumulated and that I've gone through lately. So real quick, who was he? I mean for let's just say there's there's an LDS listener who has no idea who who muster was who. Who was he? Joseph White Muster was probably best said to be the last link. Between old pioneer Mormonism and modern Mormonism like that, those areas like he he was born in such a way that he remembers President Brigham Young as a boy, as a young boy, remembers John Taylor as an early, you know, young teenager and grew up in this formative years during Wilfred Woodruff's presidency and. It looks by by and large in his early adulthood his file leadership was the 1st president were were members of the first Presidency of the church he was on. He was on very good terms with Joseph F Smith, John Henry Smith and Anthony H Lund, who were all members of the First Presidency at one point, I believe.

11:20 Holy cow. You know, and and so this this guy we're going to see, like, this guy's not nobody. Yeah, he was, he was. He was definitely on the fast track to the apostleship in the church, for sure. I think I I absolutely I would. I would think so. He was really good friends with several of the apostles, not just those in the First Presidency I mentioned. But so was his father. You know and we're gonna, we're gonna, this is going to be interesting. But he he believes, you know, and he testified, this was his testimony that Wilfred Woodruff and others, you know, Lorenzo Snow especially. Commissioned him to keep plural marriage alive no matter what, no matter what the church was doing, despite what the manifesto said to do.

12:03 And he was following his orders that I'm going to keep the principle of celestial plural marriage alive no matter what happens, and I'm going to do it on my own responsibility. And that's what he testified was his Commission. And that that Commission was given to other men, not just him as well. So he was commissioned by Lorenzo Snow and Wilford Woodruff. Him, not personally with Wilfred Woodruff, but with Lorenzo Snow, was the first person to kind of give him a last charge like that, you know, and Joseph F Smith for sure. And he would testify later. And I don't know if I got these in my this part of my notes, but he says that he knew through George Cuchanan about the 1886 events.

12:50 Wow, holy cow. So he's an influential fundamentalist leader and probably the the, like you said, the godfather of fundamentalism. Right. So where does he grow up? Let's, let's, let's go back there because I know you. Were Salt Lake He grew up in? Salt Lake. Salt Lake Valley? Salt Lake City? Yep. Now what? Who were his parents? Amos Milton Musser was his father. I actually don't have his mother's name written down in my notes. But I think we should dive into Brother Milton Muster. This is going to be this is going to be awesome. So Milton Muster was born, I believe, in Pennsylvania, and he moved to Quincy, IL in 1837, which is just like serendipitous timing for all sorts of things, because Quincy was the place where the Saints first went once they were driven from from Missouri.

13:48 And the the inhabitants of Quincy were like the most generous and charitable in helping the Saints get back on their feet. And he, Amos Milton Muster became pretty much a dry Mormon because at that point his his mom remarried a guy who was a member of the church. And some of his older sisters, I think 2 married married members of the church and it converted. And except for he didn't, he did not join the church for a few years. And it's interesting because he when the Saints left. Navu in 1846 he stayed behind and he wasn't a member of the church yet and he but he took part of the battle of Navu on September 10th 1846 when about 1000 anti Mormon you know in a mob came to the city and you know and tried to drive people out. And there was about 150 defenders left in the city under the under the authority and command of a future apostle and member of the First Presidency, Daniel H Wells. And so in his young, you know, late teens, you know, you know, dry Mormon as you know, as I've always called it, you know, he's fighting for the for these people. It's just I think it's interesting. And so after after a little bit of fighting, you know, Daniel H Wells calls a ceasefire and they basically decide to leave, you know, and so he they, they then go to Council Bluffs, IA, right. And there he is baptized by James Allred. Interesting.

15:23 It is interesting. So I had to do the research on who James Allred was. And it's so James Allred is very interesting. James Allred wife was one of the first people that Joseph Smith told how to and instructed her how to sell a garment the garments of the holy priesthood. So these this is so fascinating that even in these early early days we're seeing this connections between the, you know Allreds and and muster that's that's fascinating stuff. No, it is. It's right off the bat. And so James Allred was an uncle to ruin. See. Allred's great grandfather. So ruin. See, ruin, ruin.

16:05 Allred's father was Byron Harvey Allred. Junior and so senior generation past that and that. His father was William Moore Allred. William Moore Allred and James Allred were brothers, OK? No, William William Moore Allred was James Allred's nephew. Sorry. That's that's correct. After being baptized by James Allred, Milton Musser was confirmed by Apostle Orson Hyde as a member of the church. He received his endowment on December 17th, 1851, five years later, likely at the council house because the endowment house was not yet finished in Salt Lake and the Council house was a building that was two stories and it was 45 by 45 it was a 45 foot square building, 2 two stories.

16:58 And they did do endowments and other ordinances in those in that building before the endowment house was finished. He served a mission in India starting in 1852, and one of his first mission companions was Samuel Amos Wooley, who was a younger brother to Edwin D Wooley. Yeah, I know. It's just nuts. It's a like you can't. Like if you took it to Hollywood and said here's a script, they'd be like, it's too unbelievable. We'll stick with, you know, aliens and and you know, The Avengers, but this is too unbelievable.

17:42 No, no, I know it. So Samuel Samuel Wooley was the younger brother to Edwin D Wooley, which makes him John John W Wooley's uncle, right? So. So Joseph Muster's father's first mission companion is serving with John W Wooley's uncle, right? And it was for it was only for a little bit. But that they left. They left on their mission together. They left Salt Lake together. And Samuel Amos Wooley was, along with John W Wooley was one of the the whittlers of Navu. You know where they were, the the young young boys or teenage boys that would follow undesirable characters around Navu while whittling sticks with their long knives and singing and and and whistling right and scaring off the apostates, Boy, I'll bet you teachers quorum with something else back then. Oh sure.

18:36 So and by the way, if you have any questions or you need to interject something or we like and to open something up to a discussion, like dude, you just you just do it. And I'll just try to keep, we'll keep the flow going. So Milton must muster leaves in 1852 for India and he returns in Utah in 1857. That's a five year mission. And this is one of those times I want to point out just how flat gangster early Mormonism really is, right? I mean, everything about the, the, the whole story, right? Like in Joseph Smith you have a charismatic teacher who's upending Victorian sensibilities of the time.

19:23 Then you have Brigham Young who goes really gangster and like we're going to load up and we're going to go over the plains and up into the mountains. And then for everyone else, it's five year missions in India, right. I mean just and. I was complaining about humidity at the beginning of this podcast. I should not just in, pardon the expressions earmuffs for any of the parents with kids. It's just straight badassery, right? I don't know how else to talk, say it. It's just it. It really is just an incredible story with incredible players. Oh it's going to get better. We're we're barely scratching the surface so the the majority of his mission wasn't India.

20:06 But he he gets called home and he takes A and there's dude we can do another podcast on his mission stories. But like basically they they they barely made it to India in the 1st place based on some some events and because of things that happened with the ship's captain like they're you know and and and brother Musser they're able to get there. Well the same captain of the ship comes around near the end of his mission and something similar happens and you know he needs he needs to get to England on his way back to the United States. And lo and behold it's the it's the same captain that brought him, you know five years earlier and they bring so he brings him to England, you know and and he stays for like almost a full year.

20:50 What is last year in England before returning to Utah and he gets acquainted with Orson Pratt and the other apostles who are kind of filtering through the mission in England and people start taking notice of them. In fact, I I want to say he even edited one of the Millennial Star editions while he was on his mission there. And if I'm not mistaken, some of those millennial stars are where we extract many parts of the Journal of Discourses, right? Maybe the other way around. I don't know. And I can, but I can be wrong. I mean, I know the Adam God sermon for Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses was then published in the Millennial Star in England. And Samuel L Richards was mission president at the time, I believe.

21:34 And he was like, yeah, if you don't believe this, you're not getting baptized. You know, it's those inconvenient truths that I just love to fixate on Michael. On me too. Anyway, let's go. Let's go on. So he gets back in 1857 and he quickly becomes friends with Brigham Young. You know the the his Brigham's constituents have taken notice of him. And Brigham Young makes him the clerk of the church store in Salt Lake City. And I don't know what the name of it was then or what it what it was, but it's like the general store before ZCMI or or whatever. But but Milton Mustard is made the clerk for that. And then he is made the traveling Bishop of the church in 1860, and he serves in that office from 1860 to 1876. So do you know what a traveling Bishop is? No.

22:32 So I didn't either. I mean, I I've heard the term, but I I it's never something that was interesting enough for me to go and research, you know? But as a traveling Bishop, Milton Muster made a reputation that he would travel a circuit of all the major settlements in Utah at least twice a year, not just collecting the tithing, but distributing goods across the settlements as tithing was paid in kind back in those days. Wow. So he was responsible for managing all the Bishop storehouses, basically making sure that they were all flowing and connected and everyone was getting what they needed. And he he do a circuit to Utah twice a year. Holy cow, I you know, I hear about that and it again, that's one of the things that made me fall in love with Mormonism. Was this just the the those old stories of of how the Church operated even back then, right?

23:40 I mean, it's not like they could jump on a zoom call. It's not like they could communicate through e-mail there, you know you got a guy out there braving Indian territory to fulfill the Lord's work. And. And his father, Muster's father seems to be somebody that Brigham Young has put a lot of stock into, right? Because and that was the one thing is that Brigham was notorious. I shouldn't say notorious, Maybe notorious. For not just handing those callings out, right. Obviously there was revelation involved, but there was a certain amount of you had to kind of prove yourself.

24:20 I mean, all right, so look at this way too. I mean he was released from that calling in 1876. That's, I mean he didn't get fired from messing up for 16 years and he was only released, you know, a year before Brigham Young died. So that's the whole 10 year shift. Pretty much of Brigham Young's life that that Milton muster is, is in this trusted position pretty much. Yeah. And he's not answering to anybody else, but probably Brigham, right? Maybe. I don't know what the state of the Presiding Bishop Rick was at that point in early early Utah history. But yeah, maybe that to a degree too. But yeah, you're you're pretty much right. It tells you a lot about the man's character.

25:02 If Brigham had that kind of trust in him, oh, it's going to get better this way. So he so he marries Mary Elizabeth White in 1864 as his second wife, and she is the mother of Joseph W Musser. His third wife was Belinda Pratt, daughter of Harley P Pratt. Now Belinda Pratt had previously been married to a famous author named TBH Stenhouse, who apostatized later during the Gobbi movement. Apostasy thing. Are you familiar with with that? Tell us what that is. What? What were the guys put me on? On On the spot there is a William S Godby I think was the the guy that the movements named after.

25:49 He had some problems and I think he was a merchant. What was part of the problem? He had some problems with some economic reforms that Brigham Young was putting into practice because there was competition between church mercantile stuff and and Gentile mercantile stuff. And so there was, I guess, hurt feelings over business and feeling like there was too much control, you know, over his, you know, things that weren't, you know, that he didn't want to be considered ecclesiastical, I guess, you know. And it turns into a big thing like it's like, yeah, we need to reform. And I think it. I don't even. I think it turned into antipolygamy at one point. As the movement developed, it turned into spiritualism and and like seances and and I.

26:38 Was going to say if I'm not mistaken, God bees one of the guys who was the founder of the Alta Club and the Alta Club was a club that was for quote, Gentiles and like the whole thrust of the club it's still a thing here in Salt Lake. And and their whole thrust was to demomormonize Utah so to speak. In an effort to rival Deseret News they started the Salt Lake Tribune. The Salt Lake Tribune is, is God be I right. Which makes sense now that you think about it, right? Yeah, yeah. No. And and for any listeners out there, I could have gotten that wrong. But I think he was one of the main founders of the Alpha Club, or at least one of the earliest members. And what what I find interesting is that it's not very long after the Saints get to Utah.

27:29 That you start seeing people yearn for Babylon a little bit, right? And because, you know, Brigham had other ideas, he wanted to keep following what Joseph had talked about this idea of, and I have no other word for it. I think the word that best describes it if you're an outsider looking in is is a counterculture, right? They want to counterculture within the United States. At that time, it wasn't even the United States. It was still out, you know. Outside of the United States, but continental United States. And it's not very much longer after that that people start yearning for for Babylon again, which which I find just amazing. Yeah.

28:14 They had about 10 to 12 years where they had relative peace. And then Johnson's army came in in 185758 and they brought, they brought whores and and all, you know, gamblers and you know shysters and eventually other businessmen and their merchants and wears and miners and open up mines and all sorts of things and they brought that with them. The army did when they came out. And from that point it was and I I have to go off on a tangent on this one but I I part of me wishes to this day that Brigham Young had burned Salt Lake City to the ground because that's what they're going to do. They had, they had every house filled with hay and straw and with people ready to light the houses on fire and and set the gardens on fire and the cut all the trees down and everything. And they were going to believe.

29:09 And basically everyone had evacuated Salt Lake City and they were camping out in Provo pretty much with the intention of them moving further South. And that's where John, that's when John W Taylor, you know, future apostle John W Taylor was born during those events when they're He and his mom were living in a chicken coop in Provo during the Johnson's Army stuff. Dude, this is right before Pioneer Day. And as we talk about this stuff and and this is when when I get a little spicy, right? Because I feel like, look, these people certainly not.

29:51 I can't claim anybody as my forefathers. I'm a Mormon, first generation on either side, but you've you've adopted them. Yeah, yeah, I have. But damn it, they bled for it, right? They they left their footprints in the West for it. They buried their loved ones on the trail. They got here. They carved the society out of the desert and. All the things that they kind of bled and died for that were unique to Mormonism now feels like Mormons in, I shouldn't say in general. Many sects of Mormonism can't wait to get away from that.

30:35 And I find it a travesty. Yeah, no, we don't know what sacrifice means yet. No. So anyway, back to the story. So so. Mother's dad is is a traveling Bishop. Yep, and it doesn't end there with his callings. He is so in 1867, Brigham Young organizes a School of the Prophets in Salt Lake City and he then he proceeds to organize different chapters of School of the Prophets in Pace in Utah, Paris, Idaho, Parowan, Utah. And I think there's one location I'm missing. In any case he Milton muster becomes he's present at as a member of the Salt Lake City School of the Prophets as early as July 11th, 1868.

31:32 So a year after it was organized and he would periodically teach lessons to those assembled. So he was he was given the the duties of being the instructor and like makes sense. He's likely, you know, teaching the duties of that his calling, being a Bishop and you know the ironic priesthood he would appear in the pace in school, the prophets on February 20th, 1869 and September 23rd, 1871. And those, those schools in particular, from what I remember that a lot of us give a lot of what was talked about was temporal self-sufficiency.

32:13 Every once in a while you'll get a discussion like what do we think about the Adam God doctrine? Like that happens every once in a while in those in those meetings. But the vast majority of it was what's the best way to raise our crops or how do we, you know, or whatever, you know. So this is interesting too in 1876, and this is probably why he was dropped from his calling as traveling Bishop, because in 1876 he was made assistant trustee and trust of the church. So he moved up, so to speak. Yeah, no, he he was legally able to sign documents, act as the church legally. And what year did what year did Brigham die? 1877 August.

33:03 So a year before Brigham dies, Brigham says we're going to make him. Yeah, he's basically my assistant. Right. Brigham kind of made him as his second in command when it came right before he died. Right before he died, looks like. Yes, like as far as I I my understanding is Brigham Young was trustee and Trump. Lostee again, real quick. All right, I just I my Internet looks fine, but I went ahead and switched it to something else. I'll edit this out but. So, So he's put in as like second in command to bring him as far as finances of the church. He's able to essentially sign documents as the church. He's able to administer in all the affairs financially for the church, if I'm understanding calling correctly. And legally, yeah, legally.

34:00 Representing the church as a spokesman, Probably even, you know. That's nuts. That's nuts. And this is Muster's dad, right? This isn't like. Musser's grandpappy or great grandpappy? No, this is this is Joseph White Musser's father, Amos Milton Musser. Yeah. Yes, Sir. So what do you think that tells you about the character of his dad? Oh, I think, I think he's great and we're we're not even done with him yet. Not even by long. Like like if we're not, But no, I think I think I would. I wish I could have known him. That's what I think when when I read the when I read his life like it's it, it's awesome. His life was awesome, highly blessed and and highly favored to the Lord and it makes sense why the Lord would choose his son to to do some work for him.

34:54 So after being made trustee and trust of the church and I don't have the year down here, he was called on a mission to Pennsylvania with his mission companion, Orson F Whitney. Dude, he's just slapping high fives with like, all the brethren. All the all the all the big names, right? I mean, just, yeah. So. And for those who don't know, Orson F Whitney was a grandson of President Heber C Kimball and a grandson of Newell K Whitney, who was the presiding, the first Presiding Bishop of the Church. And Orson F Whitney's mother was Helen Mark Kimball Whitney Smith, who was a plural wife to Joseph Smith. Right.

35:39 And the the probably the most infamous one in in certain circles. So I just, I just had a conversation with Hannah Stoddard about Helen Mark Kimball, and that's going to be out probably the week before this airs. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, it it's. And think about this as far as service, right? He serves five years in India. Yeah, comes home. It's not like he gets a little calling, right? You're going to be the traveling Bishop you're responsible for, for collecting and then passing out all of these goods and services to people. And then he gets called as a as kind of like the the second in command as far as, you know, being a representative for the church financially and issuing statements. And we're going to call you now to go back to Pennsylvania and be a missionary.

36:38 Yep. So and on that note Orson F Whitney was obviously impressed enough with Milton Muster that Orson F Whitney wrote a biography about Milton Muster later in his life. So if you're if you're if you're interested in that you can probably find that I, I and I I seen I think I got that's where I got some of this information from. I found. I think I found a copy. How much of A stellar Rockstar do you got to be for Orson F Whitney to be like, you know, I should write a book about this guy. He's pretty cool. I think the only two other individuals he did that with would be Lorenzo Snow and his grandfather, Heber C Kimball. That's some pretty rare air.

37:22 Yeah, for sure. So dude, this is going to get better from here. In 1878, Milton Musser writes an article for the Deseret News as a response to the actions and words of the Vice President Colfax And that the Vice President of the United States, who is an enemy to the church. And he in this article he writes, quote, plural marriage is a vital and inextinguishable tenet of our faith and cannot be disregarded. It is in no sense a holiday affair, to be adopted or laid aside at pleasure as well. Might modern zealots attempt to vitiate our belief in deity as to unplant this principle of our religion? End Quote. So Michael, I thought, I thought polygamy wasn't that big of a deal to the early church.

38:08 I I thought it was just kind of a passing thing. Well Brother Muster would seem to differ with you. And he he was he he was going to take this. This was the era where they, you know, Brigham Young was dead and gone now and they were trying to take out John Taylor and they were, they were trying to put the Mormonism in the dirt. And he's, he's taken these people dead on. And the same year, in 1879, he offered to give himself up to federal authorities admitting his own violation of the law because you know, they had state laws or territorial laws at this point enacted. Right.

38:52 And so he was going to give himself up through his personal living of plural marriage in order to basically provide a test case for the constitutionality of the anti Bigamy act. Basically, he was going to say let them arrest me and then we'll we'll take it to a higher court. And we're going to get and we're going to get this whole thing worked out. And but he was, he wanted to be like he was going to offer himself up to go to jail to do that. And he believes very confidently that his family, the, the, the high quality of caliber of kids that he had would bear out any suspicion or, you know, basically withstand any scrutiny. You know, that this is a good system. You know, this is not an abusive system. This is a good system.

39:40 However, this offer was not accepted and a former secretary to President Brigham Young named George Reynolds was chosen for the test case. All right. I would like to say to those listeners here, there's a few names that we're going to go over that appear in Joseph Muster's life or or even Milton Muster's life that then appear in his son's life later. Like there's certain names that you got to pay attention to. George Reynolds is kind of one of them for the next little bit. Yeah, George Reynolds was a secretary to Brigham Young, but it's in. And So what we we know that as the Jordan as the Reynolds case, right? Have you heard about that? Right. Yep. So in an alternate history, that would have been the muster case, it was the same. Same idea in the multiverse somewhere, right? And so I found, I found that fascinating, you know, and so we're going to, we're going to kind of jump into do we want to do that here or is that the wrong spot? We're going to come back to that one. I have something my notes needs to be rearranged. But all right, so in eight in 1883, four years later. Amos Milton Muster was subpoenaed as a witness in a grand jury to answer questions considering his own marital status.

41:00 Which is interesting, you know, considering he offered to do that. And he wasn't hiding anything, obviously, but apparently there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. But afterwards, he goes on the underground. And so now Amos Milton Muster becomes a character on the infamous Mormon underground days, You know, which is interesting. Yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking about the breadth of history his dad saw. Oh yeah, it's it's incredible. It's incredible. While on the underground, he was brought in again and arrested in eight or or brought in for questioning in 1884 and released again, I guess without enough evidence to convict him. He was caught again on April 1st in 1885 and was convicted OK. So we're going to, we're going to segue into another thing though because it's around the same time period Later in his life Joseph Musser would write and he published in in the Truth Magazine, volume 20 about his recollections of of Brigham Young and John Taylor.

42:10 And I'll just quote it and read it. Quote as to his recollection of meeting the early presidents of the Church. I guess this is Guy Muster writing. This Guy Muster writing about his father Joseph Muster. As to his collection recollection of meeting the early presidents of the Church, he often related to his experience of seeing President Young as he lay in his coffin. Also that he vaguely remembers seeing him before his death. Later, when old enough to remember and understand, his father invited him, meaning Milton. Muster right, his father invited him. Joseph Musser to attend a meeting of the Grand Council of the Kingdom of God. He remembered this meeting of how armed guards admitted the invited guests. His father, Amos Milton Musser being a member of this Grand Council, At this meeting he was introduced to he being John Joseph Musser was introduced to President John Taylor and heard him speak.

43:03 So that's the end of that quotation and I wanted to bring that up right here because. We're in the underground days, right where John Taylor is on the road and he's got armed guards, you know, with him all the time. You know, like Sam Samuel Bateman and Joseph Muster testifying later in his life that his father was. And we know we we're reading that Joe's Amos Milton muster was on the underground. John Taylor was on the underground. And one of these days, in the early 1880s, Milton Muster says, Son, you're old enough to come or whatever, and. It was about the time where Joseph Lester would have been about 12 or 13 years old. So formative. I mean, yeah, at that age where you're starting to figure things out.

43:47 No, no, Let me ask you this. Go, go back real quick. What was the name of the organization, the the meeting that that he attended? The Grand Council of the Kingdom of God, we're going to get into that. Is that the Council of 50? I think so. That's what I think is being alluded to here. It it sounds an awful lot like the the Council of 50. Yeah, it. Absolutely does. Also in Truth Magazine, Joseph Muster would write how as a boy he while his father was on the while his father was away on the underground, he would help other plural wives in the community dodge the authorities. And did it in one house out the back door to another house into a secret compartment in the house. Whatever this was a Joseph Musser was raised doing was was hiding plural lives from the from the law. No wonder.

44:41 I mean, you see the Lord's hand like, get ready, son, because this is what I got for you for the rest of your life. Yeah, and you know, I and I never heard any of this from any fundamentalist. That's amazing. You know, I had to do this this research and and dig deep for that. But I think, but it paints that picture that you're saying like this is clearly like he is the last link between pioneer Mormonism and modern you know, and and that he was a fish out of water in in modern you know, times Mormonism. You know. And I think the other thing that this account brings out that that we need to pay attention to is it So often we think that it was just the men who were being chased down and persecuted by the authorities for living plural marriage.

45:26 And that's not the case. Just just wait until we get to the 1940s. You're not. You're not kidding dude there. And and that's one of the things that has drove me most nuts in being a fundamentalist and then even before that hearing about how those early early brethren or talked about and fundamentalists in general is that all the wives must have just been beat down and you know, must have just been been, you know, kind of weak and whatever. And the opposite is true. I challenge anybody to go talk to a woman who's a fundamentalist plural wife or not and walk away thinking that they're beat down. Can you find some?

46:09 I'm sure you can, just like you can find some women who are beat down as monogamous, but I just find it interesting. Oh, I do too. No, it's this man. The both of these men are are just incredibly amazing individuals. And the women too, you know, they're I've read testimonies from Guy Muster about his mother, you know, which was Joseph Buster's second wife that just, like, make it. I'm in awe when I hear those things about a woman who lived such a life. Anyway, I can digress, and I will digress. So where will we so? Milton Muster was arrested in April 1st, 1885. While serving time in jail, Milton Muster helped George Reynolds, who was also in jail.

46:53 Now right, They developed. They together developed what would become the Church's concordance of the Book of Mormon. And a lot of Milton Muster's spare time was. Earnestly seeking to reform certain inmates toward good behavior because they're locked up in the state pen, right? And those that flocked towards him became ironically called Muster's Force thieves by the guards and the other inmates. Which is, is the gang that I want to be a part of, right? Right.

47:34 No. Once again, once again, just completely gangster. Right, Yeah. Prison gangs. Mormon style? Yep, that's it. All right, so Milton Muster was released from prison in October of 1885, and he was subpoenaed 2 more times to testify, once in March of 1886 and another in June of 1887. And it is reported that his house was under surveillance until 1890. So he was, he was just being watched like a hawk. Yeah, I I think this needs bore out too. I can't find any record of it, but in those days, they were using a group called the Pinkertons to do a lot, a lot of that work. And the Pinkertons weren't necessarily too big on due process, right.

48:29 So there's some pretty unsavory characters that the early members of the church are having to deal with during these times when when the persecutions are raging in Utah pretty heavily. Now that stands to reason absolutely. In a letter from Joseph F Smith to George Reynolds, presumably while George Reynolds is still in jail, written on March 1st March 21st, 1886, President Smith makes the mention of Milton Muster saying. Well, Brother Muster has my most sincere regards and my most earnest good wishes. I admire his bravery, his coolness, and his persistence.

49:12 God bless him. I hope he will keep out of their infernal clutches and live to scorch them with their own sulfur. End Quote Blowing some fire. Yeah, this was likely when President Smith was serving a mission and hiding in Hawaii, right? All right, Towards the end of his life, Milton Muster became Assistant Church Historian in 1902, until which, which calling he held until his death in 1909 as Church Historian Around 1908, according to his son Joseph Musser, Brother Milton Musser approached Joseph. Showing him Wilfred Woodruff's journal containing the 1880 revelation and the 1889 revelation. And he told Joseph, quote, someday it will be necessary for you to use this information and he let him make a copy of those. And so Joseph Musser was able to furnish those to the to the early Mormon fundamentalist movement as a result of his father.

50:21 Wow. So his dad starts to get a sense of Son, you got some work to do early on. Oh, oh, big time. And there was a moment where when he learns that Joseph Muster entered the principal in 1901 where he's like, son, what are you doing? You know? But then Joseph was, you know, was able to very quickly reassure his father that he's not done anything without the express command of those that they both know in authority, right. And he. Promptly buys his son Joseph a gold watch, a pocket watch, and engraves, something along the lines of you know, God bless you for your you know, in your service of of God, right and and entering into the principle or something like that, you know. And so and he was overjoyed.

51:13 He was overjoyed that his son could enter into the principle of celestial plural marriage. In a day when he thought that that wasn't being done. I guess you know and obviously he became wiser you know and I. But I think there definitely was a premonition and there was another moment too that Joseph Muster copied out of Wolford Woodruff journal which I'm including here because it's it's pertinent so and and you know I don't know how much Joseph was allowed to copy out of it but this this part was and I double checked this. Right this this is printed in Truth magazine, but I went and checked it with what I can find online with with Wilford Woodruff Journal and it it matches, it lines up then this is what Wilford Woodruff wrote in October on October 14th 1882 John Taylor said quote if we do not embrace that principle soon the keys will be turned against us.

52:06 For if we do not keep the same law our Heavenly Father has, we cannot go with Him. The word of the Lord to us was that if we did not obey that law, we could not go where our Heavenly Father was or where where our Heavenly Father dwells. A man obeying a lower law is not qualified to preside over those who keep a higher law. Wilfred Woodruff said he was glad the form of the 12 and 70s were now to be filled in that the. The reason why the Church and Kingdom of God could not progress if we did not receive the patriarchal law of marriage is that it belongs to this dispensation as well as the baptism for the dead, and any law or ordinance that belongs to this dispensation must be received by the members of the Church or it cannot progress. The leading men of Israel who are presiding over stakes will have to obey the law of Abraham or they will have to stop. Wow.

53:04 You got one statement from John Taylor and one statement from Wolf Woodruff from that meeting on October 14th, 1882, which is right on the heels of that 1882 revelation, right where John Taylor called Heber J. Grant and Seymour be young to to their callings, and on the condition that Seymour be young would what enter into the principle which he had not done yet, right? And they started dropping stake presidents, dude. And Wolford Woodruff says that they don't. If they don't enter into the principal, they're gonna have to stop presiding over their stakes. That's that was the the situation in in those days at the time when the biggest legal battles were being had too. Anyways, you you get that.

53:46 You get the idea that back then the the those early brethren were doing what I think a lot of us now as fundamentalists are doing, which is trying to get this out there so that it's not such a shock to everybody's system, right? This you, you get the idea that that like they almost have this feeling if we get enough of us living the fullness of of the gospel and and living that principle, it's going to be hard for him to put us all in jail right and.

54:26 That could have been some of the thought behind it for sure. Trying to normalize this a little bit right now, I'm not saying that that was purely politically motivated either, right? I I think there is a principle there to be had, like they said that you can't preside over a man who is living a higher law than yourself. And so I I think it was twofold. Or maybe it was twofold. I can't say I I think that or believe that I don't have any evidence of it, but it sure seems to make sense. Yeah, I think it makes sense to. And it's it brings a lot of things into question nowadays in my opinion, opinion regarding, yeah, the operation of of ordinations and callings and legality in church stuff. But anyway, so now we we pretty much wrapped up the the life of Milton muster.

55:17 I got overlap there, but I got one question on Milton. What happens during when when Wilfred Woodruff rolls out his rolls out the the manifesto? What? What's Milton's response? Does Milton give up his wives or I mean what? What does he do? I don't think. I don't think there was any indication of him giving up any any wives. In fact and I know from reading minutes of the Quorum of the 12 and 1st Presidency around that time period is they they they didn't. They never wanted to come to the men in the church giving up their wives. You know and. Like stop visibly cohabitating with them and if you get caught other thing but it's you don't give them up. You know and especially in early on there was talk even in the form of the 12 about Joseph Smith coming back as the one mighty and strong to set an order things back in order. You know Moses Thatcher talked about that in 1890 and 1891. You know and that was that was kind of on the that was that idea right from section.

56:24 What was it? 1:30 or we're out thereabouts where it says if Joseph lives to be 85 years old, then he'll see the the face of the Savior, right. And then the idea was, OK, he'll be 85 and December 23rd of 1890. So after that point you know they're going to have Joseph Smith back to you know deal with this you know and and I think that speaks character to to Milton that we didn't, that he didn't drop you don't leave any of his wives because we know that that happened, right. I mean. Some people absolutely did. And that's sad because they obviously didn't understand. They didn't understand.

57:06 No, really, no. And cuz look, this took me a lot of years to get to this point as a fundamentalist. Like when I when I first dive into all this, the first thing I'm thinking is Wilford Woodruff USOB, right? Like, how could you collapse like this? Now, given time some historical context, I could see that that sentiment was wrong because Wilford was backed into a corner. Now we can all sit here and say, well, I wouldn't have done that or whatever, but we weren't there. The other thing I've come to realize is that Wilford words that thing very carefully, right? He doesn't.

57:49 He doesn't say thus, you know, verily thus say at the Lord He just says to whom it may concern. It's my advice to you. I mean, he seems to use every statement that he could to make it sound right. Almost like he's like, yeah, I probably wouldn't do that. Wing. No, the statement itself, it's it's blatantly a lie, and I don't know if it can you perjure someone else, or can you only perjure yourself in testimony? But basically what happened was, he said. To my knowledge. No marriages and plural marriage have been done between these dates. Right? And he said that in the manifesto. Well, Mathias Cowley took his second wife literally within that span, you know.

58:35 And so Mathias Cowley becomes the first breaker of the manifesto by default, based on a false testimony that was made under political expediency by Wilfred Woodruff. Yeah, he automatically became the the first de facto breaker of the manifesto, which is ironic many years down the road. Yeah, it is. I I will say this too, is that those who had eyes to see in years to hear knew exactly what that was because it was taken. You know, when that first manifesto came out, it was taken so seriously that there had to be a second manifesto where they said, and this time we mean it, right? So.

59:20 No, they didn't mean it anymore than to try to get some time and my view when President Woodruff says. And it was either that testimony he gave in Salt Lake or in Logan, UT like a year later where he says the Lord showed me by vision what would happen if you know, and I and I would have been willing to give up the temples and see every man, all the leaders in Israel go to prison. I I would have been willing to do that and all this, you know? And I think that's true. But you got to realize what is he saying? Here is the Lord showed me what would happen if I didn't sign that document, Okay. But did the Lord tell you to sign it?

1:00:01 Right. And so he made a choice between seeing what would happen and seeing what's happening now. And I think the idea was to buy more time because but when you when you compare apples to oranges or apples to apples or whatever. The state of Mormon fundamentalism today is much more similar to the what the Lord showed him would happen, right, if they had not. And to me, that's actually a testimony like the Lord's showing him, look, this is what's coming down the pipe, and this is the lot of our people or your people. And this is the way it's going to have to be. It's the nature of the beast. And you know, I'll fight your battles for you, but this is this is going to happen.

1:00:43 And to me, it's what? Why would you expect the Lord to just deliver Zion from the government when less than 3% of the men were living the law and people were cowards? It was a it was a new generation after Brigham Young that they didn't they weren't made of the same stuff that the early Saints were made of. And so this was the Lord's furnace of affliction, and and and trial by fire moment where he was going to see what they would do. Well, and and I think I think you make an excellent point there and that's something else I came to, to an understanding of was that, you know, it wasn't like you had your rank and file membership lining up to live that higher principal, right.

1:01:30 Most of them didn't want to distance themselves from it as much as they could. And so when you know it may not have been Wilford alone. That rejected that principle. There were a lot within Mormonism. Period. You're you're like I said, your rank and file membership who were ready to be done with it. I I did. They're dropping stake presidents because they're not, you know, because I'm not living it at that point in history, You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it stands the reason. And so being deprived of temples and and being persecuted and and driven, you know that's that was I don't think that was the Lord saying, yes, we need to avoid this at all costs.

1:02:14 I think that was a choice made and I wouldn't say it's, I don't think it was the right one but I think it was a I can't blame him either. You know I think it was acceptable. I think it was somewhat acceptable but in the you know and the Lord had provisions for making sure things would stay the same in certain areas. Absolutely. Anyway, so we've we've covered Brother Milton Muster, and now we can get to the life of Joseph W Muster O. K So Joseph Muster was born March 8th, 1872, in Salt Lake City.

1:02:55 He never attended high school or university. He relates that he got his first job at the age of 10, herding cows in the summer. At age 14 he he learned some carpentry and helped his dad build some houses. Then he went on to plumbing until the plumbers went on strike for better wages and he was cut out. And then he got a job at a butcher shop until he applied to be a court stenographer at age 19. So first thing that jumps out to me is you're going from all you know, butcher and Carpenter and plumber, and you've got no high school education and you're going to go be a court stenographer. You know, I I think it's probably one of the reasons I pine for those old days as well is that you just had so much less government involvement that you could do those things right. You could.

1:03:48 You could you? Could you? There wasn't a gatekeeper. Well, there was no, there was no true officers making sure he's going to high school in Salt Lake, you know, And there was one right in Salt Lake City. It's not like he was being raised out in Beaver, UT. Right. Yeah, you know, and but and this is funny to me, so. So he gets the job right or I guess he's kind of he's they they put, they try him out as a court stenographer and he goes his hands in his first recording and the judge just laughs in his face and like like what is this? And apparently it was so embarrassing.

1:04:31 You know the guys doesn't know how to hardly write, you know, or whatever, I guess. And and this is so interesting because I had no idea. You know, this is we're talking Joseph Musser, who is the most prolific writer of Mormon fundamentalism ever. Yeah. You know. And his first job writing he gets laughed at and thrown out of the the core basically you know and but he he he he became very dedicated after that to to learning that that trait that job and he said you know self-taught and so he the the literary prowess that he developed he develops later in his life and by by his own persistence. Which is impressive.

1:05:15 It is impressive. He married his first wife, Rose in the Logan Temple in 1892 and was ordained the 70 of June, June, June 29th that year. On July 17th, 1892, he was admitted to be a member of his father's prayer circle that was held in the Church Historian's office. So for those who don't know what that is, back in those days, you could do true order of prayer outside the temple in dedicated spaces, whether it was in a stake, stake center or church meeting house or or apparently the church historian's office building, whatever, and even in your own home. I was going to say there was there was a time where they were saying have an alter in your own home somewhere, You know, that's a dedicated space for that. So yeah, he gets married and gets his endowments right. And as soon as he gets his endowments, his father brings him into the prayer circle.

1:06:09 Quorum. You know that that they've been having at the Church Historian's office in 1895, which also I would say that also puts him into an area of Mormonism that is so unfamiliar to people later down the road because it's in his lifetime that things like that begin to be discontinued. Yep, Yep, he's he has a first hand witness to you. You put it right. He's the he's a link between pioneer Mormonism and the what would become. The modern day church right And and I'm not trying to beg on anybody's belief in the church. If you're happy in the LDS church, I'm I'm not trying to beg on it.

1:06:53 But we also can't deny that can't get enough of the Mormon Renegade podcast. Well, good news we're on Patreon and there's three packages that you can choose from. The first one, the Slightly Rowdy package, allows you to hear the podcast without all those pesky commercials getting in the way. For those who want a slightly more indepth experience, there's the Stirring It Up package where you can hear adfree audio, adfree video and transcripts. Finally, for those who want to go full Renegade, that package is available to where you can get everything in the previous two packages, plus an extra show where myself and Ben Winfield break down the news of the day from a very Mormon point of view. You will also get exclusive access to Renegade chat. And on there, you'll be able to talk to others about the show or whatever topics are on your mind. Go to Patreon today and get your exclusive content that there were some things that happened in that time that definitely watered down the gospel a little bit. Well, I would say they watered down our the things that were considered to be our privileges.

1:08:01 And you can make the argument that would maybe we weren't living up to our privileges, but what? What about those who do want to live up to their birthright and the privileges that we're promised for our ancestors? And I'm I for one? You know, I'm sick of living beneath my privileges in the priesthood. That's how I feel. About it, Yeah. Anyways, I digress. So on April of 1895, he's called on a mission by President Woodruff to the Southern States Mission and was set apart by Brigham Young Junior, Hebrew J. Grant and John W Taylor. And Brigham Young Junior was mouth in that blessing. So near as I can tell, one of his mission presidents was none other than the famous Jay Golden Kimball. It is nuts to see all these connections, right? I mean, holy cow.

1:08:52 So Jay Jay Golden Kimball, son of Heber C Kimball, served a mission as a missionary in the Southern states in the 1880s. And then he got called as a mission president of that mission in the 1890s. And later, many years later, Jay Golden, son Max would marry Joseph Musser's daughter Josephine and I will go over this later. But years later, when when Joseph Musser's second wife died, Jay Golden Kimball was one of the principal speakers at her funeral. And see now. Now we get into asking questions. Sure. You got any questions?

1:09:33 Now we get into this this part where look. We're in a time now where church power has be really begun to be consolidated and flexed. Right before with �� in in. In those pioneer days, it was kind of fractured, right? Communication was harder to come by and so things felt maybe a little more fractured or disjointed, but the fact that Jay Golden Kimball is showing up. To Joseph Musser's second wife's funeral.

1:10:14 How much did the church know and how much did they approve of? I have, I have, I have what Jay Golden said at that funeral. Oh, go into it. Please go into it a little bit. We will, we will. We'll get there. It's not too far down the road, I don't think. Maybe. Anyways. We'll see. We're going to get to that anyways, Where were we after returning from serving his mission without purse or script? I would add in those days several interesting things happen sometime in 1899 and and when was he? So he returns in 1897 from, you know, 2-2 year mission from 18951897.

1:10:57 Somewhere in there, after returning from his serving his mission sometime in 1899, Muster recalls that the patriarch of the Church, John Smith, that's brother to President Joseph F Smith. Right? This is so interesting. John Smith said to him, It is thy duty to sit in council with my brethren and preside among them. You were chosen at birth to to labor in the ministry, and he doesn't. He doesn't say you were chosen to preside amongst thy brethren. He says you were chosen to preside amongst my brethren, which I tied to an anecdote that Joseph Muster shares that his mother received. Mary Elizabeth White received a patriarchal blessing that said that one of her her sons would be an apostle. And unfortunately I don't have that blessing. I wish I did is that'd be fantastic to read. But so yeah, his Mary Elizabeth White received that blessing that one of her sons would be an apostle. Joseph Musser fits that bill.

1:12:02 As far as I know, no one else was ever ordained from his family. But the the fact that the patriarch to the church said that is so, you know, and you can dispute that, I guess, if you wanted to. But like I I see no reason for him to lie that that happened, especially considering his very, very much verifiable connections to the Brethren at this point in his life. Right. And lately, in November, in fact, on Thanksgiving morning 1899 Joseph Muster was invited with his wife to the Salt Lake Temple to receive their second anointing at the and he's at He's age 27, and it was administered by Lorenzo Snow, which.

1:12:45 Blows another idea out of the water. As as I've heard certain church historians talk about the 2nd Anointing, they always often said, well it was for older guys or guys who were you know higher up in the in the chain of command and hear that blows it completely out of the water. So it's it's so interesting and you know none of the men that Joseph Smith ordained or anointed kings and priests were old men actually maybe not none of them but the majority of them lived a long time afterwards. So yeah they they weren't. It's not you don't have to be able to get it is what I'm getting at by any stretch of the means.

1:13:30 So he writes in his journal. That day we literally spent a few hours, as in heaven, mid the glorious calm and quiet of our holy surroundings. We were near the Lord and oh how happy I was only 27 years of age and wondered why so young a person should be so favored, for we were being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise and so that's a direct identification with the term Holy Spirit of Promise. With the 2nd anointing in in nomenclature of that era is that's that those were viewed to be synonymous. That second the Holy Spirit of promise as mentioned in section 132 and other places, is synonymous with the the second ceiling or the 2nd anointing. You know ordinance where all your other ordinances are sealed upon you and confirmed, right?

1:14:20 You. It's been taught by some apostles even as late as as Bruce Armaconkey and Joseph Fielding Smith in the church that you haven't even got a life until you've had your second anointing because everything, everything else is promissory, promissory. You know it's this on condition of your faithfulness, right? And when I was endowed in the church, we were told, and I don't know if all you know how other iterations in time have been have been with, with this in mind. But it says that you know you will. You are. If you were faithful, you'll be called up in ordain or anointed a king and a priest or queen and a priestess. But now you are only anointed to become such, right? Anyways, I I digress. So dude, this is where it get this is, this gets nuts.

1:15:04 And it's it's funny nuts too. But it's. So this was Thanksgiving Day in November 1899, right? In December. Not even. Like, not even a full month. Like, not even before the end of the year. Joseph Muster gets a letter delivered by a messenger from Lorenzo Snow telling him that he had been selected to enter plural marriage and keep the principal alive. From Lorenzo Snow Yeah, so now we are well past this idea of and what year was that? It was December of ninety 9/18/99. We're we're a full decade now. Almost a full decade now.

1:15:48 Past the the first manifesto, right? We now have a direct it. Is this documented? Can we find documents on this anywhere? Not that I know of. This is just his testimony and recalling, you know, writing them down in his journal kind of a thing. But that's that's it. There's nothing in in Muster's character that I think leads us to. Question who he was right his The knowledge he has in his life shows me that he's the real deal and he's not making up claims. Right. And so now we have a direct link between post manifesto, church, First Presidency, telling people on the DL I'm calling you to live plural marriage to keep it alive.

1:16:40 Yep. And he writes in his journal and he says God's prophet Lorenzo Snow told me to accept the law and keep it alive. His subordinates said if I did so, they would cut me off the church. I cannot argue with them and divulge the source of my authority. There was a time when every man was honor bound to carry his own burdens, and yet live every law of the gospel and. And now we we get in some interesting similacudes back to Adam, right where where Adam's given the choice, you know. You'll be cast out, but if you want to have the austerity, do you want to be exalted? You're going to have to get cast out.

1:17:21 That's. Interesting, right? But but it's a very, it's a very similar choice those days in the church, right? Because, well, so so this is my theory regarding this. You go first. One second here. This is where I'm probably going to get some hate. So I think at this point if, if, if muster understands, yes, President Snow called me to this. And yes, I could still be excommunicated by his subordinates.

1:18:02 Who's holding the power in the church? Who's really pulling the strings these days? I I think this is an honest question to ask and and I think it's a question that maybe deserves a little bit of looking at even today. I can't disagree with you there. No. I think this was the power move decided and I don't know if it was. I don't know if this was ever discussed officially in priesthood quorums in the church. But I think this is what basically the men who are aware of John Taylor's Commission. This is what they this is what they if John Taylor didn't specifically Commission this approach, this was the way that they decided to approach it was OK. If the people are going to give this up, and we have to also allow them to be scapegoats and throw them to the wolves, we we're going to give them their second anointings so that all their blessings are sealed upon them no matter what they do. So they can be cut off from the church. Because the idea was it was an unconditional ceiling. Unless you commit murder wherein or or consent onto murder where where you shed into some blood, right. And then deny the Holy Ghost.

1:19:12 And so the idea you you have been sealed up to your exaltation based on your faithfulness when you receive that ordinance and so and people who are excommunicated after they get that there, you know, I can point to John W Taylor for example. He was cut off from the corner of the 12 and excommunicated from the church, and they renewed His blessings right after he he died in the church, you know, and that's what they did. Right. I would wonder. In fact, I wonder if you could go find out if that hadn't been done with Joseph Musser in the church by some of those guys. I don't know. Oh, you know, that's weird. Deep. If it's even still around right, I don't know but that was that was the way that that I think that they said okay we can get around the the lay membership of the church or even authorities in the church who aren't sympathetic to to new. Floral marriages.

1:20:02 This is the way that we win, right? But it's still. It still makes me go. Then who's holding the power, right? If it's not the man, who is it? So he gets that letter in December, right? And he gets married in 1901. And sometime between them, John Henry Smith, who is the son of George A Smith and which was a cousin to the Prophet Joseph Smith. Right. And John Henry Smith is father to future president of the church. George Albert Smith. John Henry Smith approaches Joseph Musser and says, you're taking too long to enter into the principal.

1:20:43 And if you don't enter into the principal and you're going to lose every blessing that you've ever had in the church. AKA, you're on the clock, son. Right. And it's like how long has it been? Like, we don't, I don't know an exact time frame, but it's certainly less than a year. You know that he's that and John Henry Smith is sent, presumably. Or is it? Or at least he's in the know, you know that what's happening? And he, yeah, he's dude. If you don't enter into this, you're losing all your blessings. And so, yeah, there was a condition on him that was placed on him by his leaders. I guess. Yeah. In any case, he's. He promptly starts paying attention to the daughter of the Bishop of his war Bishop William Hill.

1:21:29 And her name was Mary. Once muster eventually expressed his intentions to, you know, because he would just go over for dinner or whatever. And imagine the imagine breaking that, like that news to your Bishop. And like, yeah, I got my eye on your daughter and I want to marry her, you know. Yeah. And you're a married man. Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm. I'm guessing that made for an awkward Temple recommend interview. Yeah it sure would be. And I, you know, it says he he relates to Bishop Hill was upset and I don't know and you know, is it understandably so or is it just because of the manifesto or what? But he basically says, like, look, I can't even do anything about it under the conditions in the church, right? We can't actually hold on.

1:22:15 If I read further in my notes, he says nothing could be done about it after the manifesto, otherwise he would see no problem with it. Apparently after the this conversation William Hill left the house for a while and serendipitously encounters 2 apostles out on the streets of Salt Lake walking walking the street. Do you want to take any? Take a swing at who they were. John W Taylor, No. Good guess, though. It was John Henry Smith the one who told him get a move on. And Matthias Cowley. And so very convenient for Brother Muster because obviously John Henry Smith is there rooting for Brother Muster. Right.

1:22:59 This is Oh yes, Bishop Hill this this thing can be taken care of. Well, you know, and and she is promptly married to to Brother Joseph Musser by Mathias Cowley. Wow. Yeah. Was that done in the temple? Or was that not that it matters the the, the, the, the authority carries, but I mean to my knowledge it was not done in the temple. I keep getting pulled back and I apologize for this. I keep getting pulled back to this idea of. The Gaddy Antons are inside the building, right, because you got snow.

1:23:43 Who says I'm commissioning you to this? You have you have other apostles who are like you got to get a move on son. You got to get another wife and you got you know the and then you have the other side. It just I don't know why I keep getting pulled back to to just the factions there. So it's hard and there definitely were and it's and there's flip floppies between members from what I've seen which is super unfortunate. But one of my favorite things about John Henry Smith who's who's pushing this with Joseph Muster right is that he on a trip to Mexico in the 1890s he brought John W Taylor and Hebrew J Grant with him and he made he you know and John Henry was senior and he made Hebre J. Grant perform.

1:24:30 Plural marriage is down there in Mexico after the Manifesto. Yeah. You know, you're probably not old enough, but you ever watch those, that episode of any of those, that sitcom Seinfeld? Oh yeah, I've seen Seinfeld. OK, you remember how Jerry Seinfeld says Newman Newman. That's how I feel about Grant. Every time I hear his name, I'm just like Grant. No, it's it's actually a real shame what happened with President Grant because he was called by revelation and the Lord had high hopes for him, I think. And but that's just the way it is. You know, we have our agency and we can we can either magnify Our Calling or not magnify it.

1:25:16 And that's a choice that's up to us. Yep. So, so Muster takes another wife. Yep. And it gets even better. Gets even better. OK, so we're getting sent to some names that are going to repeat throughout Okay. So pay attention, listeners. All right. At this time, Joseph Muster lived in Granite Stake in Salt Lake City. Granite Stakes president was Frank Y Taylor, who was brother to John W Taylor and therefore son of President John Taylor, right? Right. I have to note here that upon further research, Frank Wyatt Taylor is responsible for the church program of Family Home Evenings. Frank Why Taylor is Frank why Taylor invented and stamped and systematized and basically made the Church to what is called now Family of the evenings.

1:26:11 Wow, that started. That was a program started in his stake and he is a post manifesto polygamist. Nice, nice, nice. It's one of those spike in the football moves right there for Fundamental. And so you have an interesting thing with the structure of the church that we're going to see come into play here where technically speaking members of the Quorum of the 12 have nothing to, they have no jurisdiction in stakes unless they're sent by the 1st Presidency on a special assignment. And this was a genius power move by Joseph F Smith I think to stack Granite Stake with authorities that were they were they were put under covenant the same as Joseph Muster was because Frank White Taylor was a post manifesto polygamist and was the state president.

1:27:01 And his second counselor was John M Cannon, son of George Q Cannon who was also a post manifesto polygamist. Right. Frank White Taylor ended up in possession of the original copy of the 1886 revelation and holding on to it until he turned it into church archives, where Joseph Fielding Smith got his hands on it and reviewed it and authenticated it. Right. Right. And then they lied about it, right? And they said it wasn't in the archives. But Frank White Taylor was given the the original copy with John Taylor's handwriting, while John W Taylor made several copies in his own handwriting.

1:27:44 And those were the first ones that were distributed, right? So that's that. I thought that was fun. On September 20th, 1901, President Frank White Taylor prophesied to Joseph Musser that he would be a leader in Israel. In 1902, Joseph Musser was attending a circle prayer for him in the Salt Lake Temple presided over by President Anthony Shlund. For those who don't know, President Anthony Shlund was in the First Presidency of the Church. So I want to know what is young Joseph Musser, at the age of 30 years old, doing in a Circle Corps meeting with a member of the First Presidency?

1:28:26 Seems a little odd and out of place, doesn't it? Doesn't it? Yeah, at the meeting. Joseph Musser's there. John M Cannon from his state presidency is there. George M Cannon and James Hendry and others who have been selected to keep alive the principle of plural marriage saw an interview with President Lund for advice regarding administering ordinances for their children not recognized by the church. Because right now they're raising families that are hush hush and I can't take these. I can't acknowledge these families, the the, the children of these, these women publicly in church, right? Can't do it. So what do we do? What do we do with their ordinances? What do we do when they when they turn 8 right? Right, so the Church.

1:29:14 So. So at least certain leaders of the church are making provisions for that now. Well, from Joseph Musser's writing, all of those men were in a forum meeting with Anthony Schlund seeking advice on a post manifesto situation. And not only that they were just so happening to be living in that condition, but that they had that they had been selected. These are men that have been selected according to Joseph Muster. That's John M Cannon, George M Cannon and James Hendry. I don't know who James Hendry is. I kind of want to know who he is now. But but then and others were commissioned and selected to keep the plural marriage alive and they're asking President Lung for advice. And he says, brethren, you hold the priesthood and stand at the head of your families.

1:29:59 As your children are born, you should give them a father's blessing and a name. When they reach the proper age for baptism, you should baptize them and confirm the members of the Church and confer the Holy Ghost in the usual manner. Be sure and keep the record and when the Church will receive it handed in. Holy cow. OK, now, now this begins to change. I think a lot of the perception, right? Is that. Oh, sure. There, there's a clean break, so to speak, right? Even if it's not 1890, it's 1904 with the 2nd Manifesto. However, what we see now is that we see almost a a program, if you will, being established by somebody in the First Presidency of the LDS Church to say, look, this is what you need to do, right? And I think it lends itself to what you were saying. I don't think anybody saw the manifesto in those days lasting terribly long, right?

1:31:01 I think they saw this idea of coming back together at some point to say, you know what, give us your records. They're good. Let's get everything organized and jeez, no. And and I would like to say to any fundamentalist listening, keep your keep your damn records. Because if you're not, like the scriptures tell you out of the books that we have, you know, you know what's recorded on earth will be recorded in heaven and those things are joined with the ceiling powers. And so, like I, I have a lot of anxiety over record keeping, you know, in my, in my own family and and with other people who are doing the righteous thing but are, you know, just be careful and you know. And and maybe this is maybe this is where that that that I certainly fell victim to.

1:31:53 I shouldn't say victim but but certainly felt like it was one of those things that that was commonly known when when they said, oh plural marriage will totally be lived again within the LDS church. Right. Maybe it's this sort of thing where that is given life, given breath right is just keep your records. It's cool. We'll we'll be back in the in in the church in no time. Yeah. The sad thing is though, and I had this as an anecdote, there's a talk I have in my possession from from Joseph Musser's son Guy Musser that was given by him in 1950. I mean, he's relating the story, by the way, in his talk that, you know, with Anthony H Lund there and he says that some, some of these men's children at that time are now dead and the time still hasn't come when the Church would have accepted their records. So these are these instructions being given in 18 or 1902, right.

1:32:57 And then by 1950, some of these children are already dead. You know it's, it's just. It's yeah, because you can only imagine that that that first generation muster you know the the first generation of of of post manifesto polygamists guys seeking to keep the fullness alive. You know, at least I would have anyway. But I'm not as good as any of those guys. But I can only imagine that that I could just hear the conversations at night between him and their spouses. This will pass. This will pass. At some point, they're going to welcome, welcome us back in with open arms and it never comes. Sure.

1:33:46 Heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking because I know for a fact later in his life, Joseph Musser, he didn't want to be at odds with the church. You know none of the fundamentalist fundamental, you know, quote UN quote, Fundamentalists wanted to be at odds with the church. They just wanted the Kingdom of God to roll forth. And they knew that these principles are what create a society that God can live in. You know, I'm I'm going to say something else here and and I'm not going to speak for everybody, but I think I think maybe a a bulk of fundamentalists certainly feel this way. Look, if if correct principles had been instituted, you know and and you know there was that, that open hand of fellowship while living the fullness of the gospel, again, I think a lot of fundamentalists would would embrace that right. Why wouldn't we?

1:34:42 I don't know. I don't know. I I it. It's sad in a way because I, I, I get, I got the feeling from that last statement you read that there there was probably a lot of people who waited a long time for something they felt was promised that never came. And yeah, and those records are now lost to generations, not how far we're we are and well over 100 years past that point now. Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're we're 120 a 121. So if you're waiting for that, I wouldn't do that. So don't, don't, don't, don't pin your hopes to that horse.

1:35:23 It's. I don't think it's going to come in for a while. No. So around this time right so Joseph Joseph Muster has just taken a second wife in a culture that is abandoned New polygamy or or the continuation of polygamy and new polygamists are I I guess in some circles you're probably going to be viewed as a hero. But in some circles you are an apostate now and it's and it's getting more entrenched that you're that way. Apparently some of Joseph Musser's new inlaws felt that way his his new wife's brothers felt that this was not right and one of her brothers threatened to shoot Joseph Musser. Yeah I want to kill.

1:36:07 I want to kill you. And so, as a result, to save his life, President Joseph F Smith F Smith sends him out on a mission to get him out and get out of Dodge. And so he he spent a few years out in the UN to help facilitate organization of new Church branches and Indian Reservation affairs as the Church was settling new colonies in an effort to move people out of the cities and into areas where they could, where there could be more agriculture. He was set apart by Joseph F Smith for the mission on February 2nd, 1902. He returns to Salt Lake City in 1907 and was sustained as a member of the Granite State High Council on February 24th, so February 24th, 1907.

1:36:53 He's back in Granite State with John M Cannon and Frank. Why Taylor? Right, right. And he's a member of the High Council. Two years later, 1909, Joseph Musser married his third wife, Ellis. Shit. Reportedly under the personal direction of President Joseph F Smith. So Joseph F Smith told him to do that and he says and he writes or or it's recorded in Truth Magazine, volume 20. Later, under the direction of President Joseph F Smith, this man again responded to the Holy commandment and had his third wife, Ellis Ship sealed to him. And when the Salt Lake Tribune got wind of it, they wrote an expose on him. This.

1:37:34 I love this, the Salt Lake Tribune wrote. Joseph Musser is a chief clerk and assistant secretary of the Utah Light and Railway Company. His father is assistant historian and political political mouthpiece of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So that confirms what we're talking about. The spokesman, right? Yeah. So his father's the political mouthpiece of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He himself is a high ecclesiast in the Church, though, but about 40 years of age. He is a high counselor of Granite Stake and as such passes on the differences between the Saints of his stake and his decisions are final, save that an appeal may be taken to the First Presidency.

1:38:17 The president of Granite Stake, Frank Wye Taylor, and his second counselor, John M Cannon, are publicly known to have recently contracted plural marriages. So have the Sunday School Superintendent and others the stake. In fact, granite steak is the hotbed of new polygamy. And Forest Dale, which is a part of the steak, is oftentimes spoken of as polygamyville, inasmuch as as it is a refuge of those who are violating the laws by living, by living their religion. So that's the that's the end of the Tribune article on Joseph Musser. So he got, he got their attention.

1:38:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and as a result of. That he got called into the Quorum of the 12 to talk about it. OK, So what happens in that meeting? So it's 1909, so it's three years after the end of The Roots reads boot hearings and and apostles Taylor and Cowley are dropped, right? And I I hope that everyone's getting all the names right because a lot of big names show up here again. So it's he's he's on the carpet and he writes in his journal was requested and I'm just going to this is this is a journal entry that I'm going to read and I'm going to try to read it as good as I can. And the grammar is kind of grammar can be different with writing and speaking.

1:39:44 So bear with me. Was requested to attend a meeting with President Francis M Lyman of the Quorum of the 12 at the Temple at 4:30 PM. I waited until 6:00 PM when I was invited into the Apostles Room, where an inquisition was being held by President Lyman and the following members of the Quorum. John Henry Smith, Heber J. Grant, Roger Clawson, Orson F Whitney, David O McKay, George F Richards, and Anthony W Ivins. K Side Notes. Anthony W Ivins is responsible for like the most total marriages after the manifesto done in Mexico. Out of anyone. Roger Clawson is a notorious post manifesto polygamist apostle.

1:40:29 In fact he had at least one wife that was post second manifesto that was sealed to him by Mathias F Cowley. And John Henry Smith is there who obviously helped Joseph muster get into the situation right. Continuing with what Joseph Musser writes, object of the Inquisition to get information regarding of the practice of plural marriage, since the discontinuance thereof by the Church. Also to array those now favoring the practice against it was grilled two hours by the Brethren and declared out of harmony by Brother Grant and President Lyman several times the proceedings were in some substance as follows. I was asked if I knew Brother Alpha J Higgs, who had recently entered into the principle, and I talked with him and given him any encouragement or information on that subject. I answered.

1:41:18 I have known him for years, personal friends. My conversation with him on the subject of a very general character, Yes, he's not admitting to. Write details, right? But it's I want to know that Alpha J Higgs is someone I want to research in the future because he shows up in early fundamentalism in the meetings, in Group meetings in the in 30s and 40s. Like he's there. He's in the he's in the priest of group later and for what I know about him is he was sent up to Canada to take a wife in like in 1909 around this time. Right. And they find out, the apostles find out and he got he got excommunicated the next year like 1910 he was cut off like that anyways.

1:42:03 So yeah, there are conversations of general, you know, of general character now. They asked him, do I know of his personal affairs? Asked if I had to talk to anyone about the subject since President Smith's statement in the Tabernacle five years ago. That's the second manifesto, right? And to whom? Had anyone talked to me, and who were they? Right answer, yes. But any such conversations were of a confidential nature, and I did not feel of liberty to divulge them In a parenthetical statement, he says this attitude was strongly criticized by Brothers Lyman, Smith and Grant. But I could not change. And so you kind of see a little bit of a turncoat unfortunately, with John Henry Smith at that point or or he's playing, you know, the, you know, team politics. It's so messy.

1:42:50 It's so messy. I mean, I mean, I'm even thinking about Joseph F Smith. Here, right? Here is a guy who who does issue the 2nd Manifesto, but when people approach him, we have several anecdotes. Stories from people who request to enter the principle of plural marriage. And he doesn't say no. What he says is, well, if you can find someone to seal you, God bless you in that. Or I know I know someone who knows the ceiling ordinance. Right. And all of a sudden someone just pops up right? And so it's so messy and and and and John Henry Smith is isn't muddies the water further and and so we don't.

1:43:34 We don't get a good idea of of obviously with Grant. I think we can make make the assumption at this point that Grant is dead set on at some point this is going to go away permanently. At this point Grant and Lyman are are are done. They're done with polygamy and the others aren't necessarily and we're going to see that. And I don't think even John Henry Smith was done completely with this. And I I like him enough with the work that he did with brother Muster so far that I, you know, I'm rooting for him. On the other side, they ask him, If they ask him, have you heard anybody claiming that people could get in now or I get in the principle I stated, I presume I could go out on the street and find 200 people who would claim that Who are they? Well, the Saints generally.

1:44:22 Why should they claim it? And I love Joseph's response here because it is generally understood that many were permitted to get in since the Woodruff Manifesto and that being true, that people think the opportunity is still open. They ask him, do you think so? Yes, I have an idea that it is. What right have you to think so? The same as I have expressed. So he's getting a little spicy here. It sounds like he's getting a little. He's starting to clap back a little bit. What blows my mind, and I'm going to spoil it for the readers, is he doesn't get excommunicated for another 12 years. I find it interesting that he they drug him in to talk about somebody else, not himself.

1:45:07 Well, so far, right? Yeah. I yeah. I mean, actually, in my recollection, I don't even know if they talked to him about his wife, right. But we're talking even after the second manifesto, according to Joseph Musser. Joseph F Smith, who issued that second Manifesto, told him specifically, go ahead and take this third wife or, you know, do it. You know, I command you or whatever. But yeah, they're asking about everyone else, right. And he may say, have you ever heard any talk on the subject with President Frank White Taylor or John M Cannon? Answer These brethren are good and faithful men having the spirit of their calling. And if you will ask them, I feel sure that they will tell you anything you need to know. And they they say, but we are asking you. Well, I can't tell you and in parentheticals that says sometimes spent in endeavoring to show me my mistake and not answering this question.

1:46:00 But I still refused. And after that they asked him asked They asked who could perform such marriage. Answer. I did not pretend to know, but President Smith had the keys and could authorize them if he desired without consulting anyone. Had he done it? That is for him to answer. So it's the circle back and forth, back and forth. Would that authority have to come from him to either grant or revoke the privilege? I so understand President Smith understands his affairs better than I do. Have I, they asked, have I ever talked with any of the leading brethren on the subject? Yes, with men such as President Snow, George Buchanan, and Apostle Merrill, all now deceased since five years ago. I talked with Brother Merrill how many times I had two conversations with him.

1:46:52 What is the nature of them? I cannot tell. And so for the for the reader's sake, we'll take a break there. Mariner Wood Merrill is another very famous post manifesto polygamist apostle, and I don't know if he took any wives himself, but he administered in a lot of plural ceilings because he and guess where do you want to know where? No. He was president of the Logan Temple and so he did a lot of ceilings in the Logan Temple. Geez. So at this point, though unfortunately, brother Mariner Meryl is dead.

1:47:40 They. Yeah. And then they asked him a personal question. Have you taken additional blessings during the past five years? I cannot answer. And then in parentheticals it says chorus of voices that shows that he has no. No, no, hang, hang tight. I find that statement to be very interesting. Have you taken any additional blessings? Right not. Have you entered into this dirty, filthy practice, Have you? Have you right. Wow. We could do an episode just on this, on this line of questioning. Holy cow, we could have.

1:48:22 We absolutely could have. Holy cow, I'm trying. Who asked the question? Does it say? Doesn't say who in the likelihood is that It's probably Francis Lyman or President Grant, but I don't know that for sure. He's not president yet. Apostle Grant. Which? It makes me wonder why they worded it that way, knowing who they are. Well, it could have just been nomenclature that was in common use at that time prior to that time too, right? Because it was considered a blessing to enter into the principle or to what I always like to say about when people ask why is why is they call the new and everlasting covenant, right? Because each time you enter into it, it's it's it's renewing and it's everlasting, right? It's new every single time you enter into the covenant of marriage.

1:49:08 Right. And so, yeah, it's it. It just ties together. That is, yes. This is a refreshing of additional blessings. Right. And so I could see why they'd refer to it that way. But apparently it upset a lot of people, you know, saying that, you know, he's being evasive with his answers. Right. Which show obviously he's taken more, more wives slash blessings, you know, And this one looks like it's from Brother Lyman. And he says, now, Brother Musser, then here's here's the pitch right brother Muster. We want you hereafter to join with us in putting this thing down. If anybody comes to you for information or encouragement, tell them it can't be done, that it is wrong to desire and that no attentions whatever should be bestowed upon the sisters with this in view.

1:49:59 Wow. So they they offered. Come to the come to the dark side, right? You know? I'm just waiting for somebody to say execute Order 66 that that's the moment where I believe if if he had taken that deal, we would have seen him in the corner of the 12 apostles. Right, right. No, that makes sense. That makes perfect sense. And his response is President Lyman. I cannot do that. But I suggest if you have any instructions to give me, it should be done through my stake president, with whom I am in harmony and will endeavor to remain so, bearing in mind we know who his stake authorities are, right? And so here's a parenthetical paragraph that I'll read in in from his journal on this.

1:50:53 And it says this answer brought out quite an animated discussion on the subject of authority, the brethren in the main contending that it was none of the business of the stake presidency what should be required by the general authorities of individuals. I took the grounds that instructions might be given by apostles contrary to those received from my state president, in which event I would be justified in following the council of the state presidency. This position was endorsed in part as I brought forth illustrations, but as pertaining to the president's subject, it was declared that I was wrong. So this, you know, this reminds me of when Paul the apostle back in the New Testaments on trial for, you know, being Paul, I guess, and you've got the Pharisees on one side of the court and the Sadnessies on the other.

1:51:44 And they're both, they all hate the Nazarenes or the Christians, right. Right. The you know and he gets out of custody by saying and declaring that Oh well because of Jesus Christ I have a testimony of the resurrection and they sent the Pharisees. And the saddest is against each other because the saddest is don't believe in a literal resurrection and the Pharisees do. And so the and through the fighting that resulted during this trial the Romans then extorted Paul out right of the and so you've got this whole thing erupting in this trial about authority with the 12 and authority in the states people are starting to fight over in the in the meeting. Time muster just kind of backs out real quietly. Yeah, well, you can't get away just yet. And they asked him, Well, suppose that President Taylor or a Bishop is out of harmony and Joseph muster responds, Well, he would remove the president if out of harmony. Or a Bishop, the stake president would remove him. Well, have we not the right to go into your stake and set things right?

1:52:55 And he says yes, if you were sent by the president of the church. And he says that this position was sustained. But that's like such an interesting tangent that they they completely went off a tangent on grilling him, right? Like where? Where are we authorized? Actually though, I think I think this is very interesting because I think this is the same time where where we start to see the the. The new hierarchy if you will keep in mind up up up to this point the quorum of the 12 was was almost strictly a a a missionary kind of of quorum, right?

1:53:39 If you read the Doctrine and Covenants, it's very clear they are sent out to testify of Jesus Christ and. They didn't have that standing. They they didn't have that standing leadership role within the various stakes And and so I think this line of line of of discourse is probably pretty apt for the time that we're in where there's now beginning to be a redefinition of the quorum of the 12 and what they are to do. Absolutely. It looks like John Henry Smith is asking this question next once they get back on track do you belong to an oath bound organization bound together by covenants and oaths to stand by each other Answer I do not and have never heard of such an organization.

1:54:33 Brother Lyman says, don't you know that brothers Taylor and Cowley were dropped from their quorum for being out of harmony, as you are? And then bless Orson F Whitney's heart? Orson F Whitney interjects, saying, well, the Saints don't consider that they were out of harmony, but that they were necessary sacrifices. Oh, God bless Orson F Whitney. And Brother Lyman asks, what do you think Brother muster? And he says, I feel just that way. And President Lyman says, what right have you to think that? And Joseph answers because I believe there are others that were just as deserving to be dropped as they, but the necessity for it didn't seem to demand it. Well, who are they?

1:55:18 I don't wish to mention names, However, I consider Brother Merrill and Brother Teasdale now dead to be good men. George Teasdale was another apostle who was heavily involved in post manifesto plural marriages. And so brother muster saying, well you could have cut off brother Merrill and Brother Teasdale. But you didn't do that, did you? Yeah, yeah, so. What's their response to that? Apostle Clawson says Brother Taylor and Callie offered to harmonize themselves with the Quorum. They admitted that they had been out of harmony. And then Brother Lyman interjects. I want this body of men to understand that they did not harmonize themselves with the Quorum. So that's, you know, Francis Lyman's getting heated. You know this at this point.

1:56:09 What do we know about him? Well he's the son of a mass alignment who was an apostle since the Navu days, you know. Unfortunately a mass alignment was dropped and excommunicated in around 1860 during the God VI movement thing that we mentioned previously And but I've read I've read talks from him in the journal of Discourse because I really enjoyed. I thoroughly enjoyed stuff I've Seen from a mass alignment and and so Francis Lyman comes from good stock and yeah he lived the principal and he was even. He's a he's a post manifesto polygamist too. He was he had John W Taylor seal a wife to him after the manifesto.

1:56:57 I just. Keep coming back to the word messy. This is all really messy. It's it's messy. There's there's nothing, there's no clean break here whatsoever. And there's I don't want to get too far off in the field because we're talking on Joseph Muster. But, you know, there was a point when John W Taylor was out in Canada, and it was during the Reid Smoot hearings, right. Or right before it. And President Joseph F Smith had just been subpoenaed into the Supreme Court to to talk about all this nonsense. And President Lyman's like, all right, I'm going to get myself to Canada and I want to drag John W Taylor to the Supreme Court and testify. Right. And he's going with them, basically. And he says, you know, Francis, I just want you to know that I want to tell everything.

1:57:42 If you bring me there, I'm going to, I'm going to say everything I know. And and then Francis Lyman was like, all right, second thought, you stay put. Dude, this might be, this might be the the best episode that I've ever had where we are breaking down the players. And breaking down the arguments, if if there's one thing we're starting to see out of out of musters, I'll just call it what it is. Ministry is that he seems to by his being faithful, he is forcing the these conversations to now be had. And we can see the split now beginning to form within the Quorum of the 12 Apostles.

1:58:33 Yeah. And it's unfortunate it's in this time. In this short time period from about 1900 to 1909, the majority of the members of the 12 were for for new polygamy, new celestial plural marriages. And but then they start dying. You have George Teasdale Mariner W Merrill. We have Abraham Owen Woodruff. You have Brigham Young, Junior, they all die. And then you have Matthias Cowley and John W Taylor who are dropped from their forum. And so that's seven, That's seven out of 12 right there. You know that's then you have what? That's the majority, right?

1:59:14 I mean that and then you have new people brought in to fill the gaps. Right. Hebrew J Grant, probably being one of them. No, he was. He was already there since 1882. No, he was in there forever, dude. But but he also and. And so like we know, we know that Hebrew J Grant and Francis Lyman were not opposed to new polygamy originally. In fact, Hebrew J Grant went on record in the Supreme Court during the same hearings that I mentioned earlier about John W Taylor being dragged to testify. But they said, he said it's not a good idea. I want to expose everything. If you do, you know, bring me at that same the same time frame, Hebrew J Grant said. Look, I want to keep taking wives until I have a son.

1:59:59 Wow. Yeah, because he was only getting girls, you know, or if he didn't have boys, they died prematurely, I guess. I don't know. But yeah, so you have the vast majority and you have other kind of you have other sympathetic people like John Henry Smith. Anthony Schlund is still a member of the First Presidency. I think you have Anthony W Ivins, who's probably a member of the First Presidency at this point, but he's kind of turning against it at this point. Now you have Roger Clawson and you have Orson F Whitney. Those are kind of the names that are kind of sympathetic at this point. So where were we? They so Francis Lyman freaks out, says they were not trying to harmonize themselves.

2:00:41 Speaking of John W and Mathias Cowley, in a parenthetical statement, Joseph Musser records that I was pressed for an answer that I would place myself in harmony. I promised that should the occasion arise for me to answer a brother's inquiry as to how he might get in. I would be willing to tell. I would be willing to tell him how the quorum of the apostles stood and President Smith's statement. And should he still want encouragement, I would encourage him to lay his case before the Lord in prayer. To this, most of the brethren strenuously objective objected, some making light of prayer on the subject. And Brother Grant asks why, Who should I advise them to pray? And Joseph Musser's answer is, because I prayed about it and I got an answer, Yeah, he's laying it down. Well, well and and also I think.

2:01:39 I think this shows. Where? Where? Grant is right. If he's saying you don't need to pray about this, this is a foregone conclusion. You don't. What are you praying about, right. It's tough. It's tough. There's there's one redeeming story I that I know of with President Grant. Is he allowed Byron Harvey, Allred Junior to have his second marriage ratified in the Carston Alberta Temple in 1923? And so we're talking about these this these new polygamy deals right where they can't acknowledge their family publicly in church or whatever, and the records aren't in the church.

2:02:22 But in 1923 after the temple in in Canada was dedicated President Grant allowed that to be a matter of of record supposedly and for for ruling Allred's dad which and it was the marriage that to his mom right So they they put more pressure on him to get in harmony. His final answer said. It says I cannot promise what my future course might be in case new light came to me on the subject. Brother, Lyman said a number of times. He answers just like the other brethren who are in the same position, while those who are not who are not. Already in a moment to be in harmony or what one would think that these brethren had reversed to peace. He's accusing all these new polygamists of getting together and rehearsing their defense.

2:03:16 You know the word Inquisition is very, very appropriate, right? That's his word for. It no, it's it's very, very fitting. But the whole line of questioning is very, very thing. And the more I keep hearing you read Francis Lyman. The more I'm beginning to really dislike him. Oh, just wait, We're going to get past him in a bit. But there's still a little bit more. Brother Ivins. That's Anthony W Ivins contended that it was a sin to break the laws of the land. While it was not wrong to practice polygamy formally before the law against it had been pronounced constitutional. But I was sustained in the statement that marriages took place in our church by authority and were approved after the law and had finally been passed as constitutional. That being the case, the morality of the thing was no different now than formerly.

2:04:15 I said, meaning Joseph Musser. I may be a lawbreaker, but so is President Smith. Brother Ivan says no, he isn't, and Joseph Musser responds, Thank the Lord he isn't. And then Brother Roger Clawson interjects saying that President Smith escaped imprisonment for unlawful cohabitation by the skin of his teeth. But he was a judge to guilty and fined. So he he was guilty. Brother Clawson asks Brother Ivins. And so they get into a side debate, right, the apostles because now they're contended just all right. So we have to know that Rudger Clawson is a post second manifesto plural mirror, you know, Pluygumist at this point.

2:04:57 And so he's now asking Brother Ivins, well, do you consider it more wicked to practice the principal after the Edmunds Tucker Act than it was after the Poland Act, which was passed previously? You know, because Anthony Ivins is now taking an absolutely ridiculous stance. So we need to follow the laws of the land when it was never legal in Mexico or Canada. It just wasn't really criminalized either. And Anthony Ivins answers yes I do. Meaning I do. I do think it's it's it's a sin and wicked. His position was criticized by the Brethren. So he's. Getting the Brethren to to turn and John Henry Smith states that even after the Woodruff Manifesto, some of the marriages were authorized in Mexico, whereas Brother Taylor and Callie went wrong.

2:05:45 Was that they were doing it in the United States, right? Which is that that's a cover because Callie did. Callie and Taylor did marriages in Mexico and Canada too. He said that he had obtained the consent of a woman to marry him and had the matter all fixed. But since the manifesto, upon the advice of the president of the church, he broke off the engagement. That's sad. That's John Henry Smith saying that he was engaged for two woman to be married and he was advised to break it off. That sucks. Does he say by who? Says by the President of the Church, which at this point would have been Lorenzo Snow or Joseph F Smith depending, or or even Wilfred Woodruff depending on when.

2:06:30 I don't know at what point we're talking about there. So is there any chance that maybe they didn't, they didn't want John Henry Smith engaging in any more plural marriages? That maybe it's specific to him and not to Musser or anything. Or or even look, there's too much, there's too many eyes on you as a member of our quorum and being so high up in the church that we don't really want the political fallout. Like you've like, let's say like you've taken. I mean, I don't, I don't know how many wives John Henry Smith had, right. So it's like maybe he had a good amount. And it's like if you're living your part, right, you're doing your part to fulfill the law of God. And so we're trying to help other people do it who haven't, right.

2:07:16 And so we. But to not bring attention on the church, we're going to ask that you don't do this kind of thing. I can see that. It's and and that's the other part of. That that's the other part that's so hard about this time period within the church is we we don't get a real good idea about intent. Right. What what was the intent there? Was that churchwide? Was that individual? Was it based on how high up you were in the church and you know the heat you could bring? It's yeah, I wish we could be a fly on the wall for some of these conversations. We we're going to get some of that now to answer one of those questions down the line.

2:08:00 I'll skip a bit. And they're asking like, OK, they're still in this debate. Like, what justifies these things now, you know, because Anthony Ivan started this thing, this dumb thing about like, oh, it's fine because it was legal. You know, it wasn't unconstitutional or or it wasn't deemed constitutional before, but now it is right and all this. And they're debating, OK, well this was done. And openly like they're saying like, yes, these things were done with approval after the manifesto. And one of them answers yes, but the conditions are different then than they are now. And one of the brethren says it was not meant for the church then. And brothers John John Henry Smith says it was never meant for the church, but it was an individual manner. It was an individual matter, so that reflects his feelings about that and Joseph, Muster says.

2:08:56 I contended that if the practice was right for the early days under the statement of Joseph Smith, it could be right and proper now. Throughout the investigation, I was treated with a kindly spirit by the brethren generally, Brother Grant being an exception. He appeared impatient, maintained I was out of harmony and there was no use Losing time with me. Brother Ivans was somewhat impulsive. Brothers Clawson, McKay and Whitney appeared generous, considerate and consistent. My own feelings are these that the investigation, that the investigation along the lines it is it is being carried out is unwarranted, that the forum is not united, and that such actions as these will tend to lose them their influence among the Saints.

2:09:40 Brother Grant said that they were going to cut off Brother Alpha J Higgs from the Church, and his tone and manner were vindictive. My impression were that the brethren are not actuated by the proper spirit, Brother Lyman said. If you had come to me for counsel, I would have given you good advice. My answer was that I did go to Goodman, whose advice I followed. Wow. So, so I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. Musser calls Heber J Grant vindictive. Yes, that's the word he used. What's he what?

2:10:20 What does he got to be angry about her seeking vengeance for? Well, I know she was trying to marry Fanny Wooley at one point, and Fanny Wooley is Lauren C Wooley's aunt, and she turned him down and married someone else. So there's bad love between Grant and the Wooley family, by the way. Okay. All right. Yeah, that and that's a whole other that could be a whole other podcast episode. But he's. I don't know. It looks, you know, I that's one reason I can see from being vindictive. But Willie's not even really on the scene at the moment yet and we're not, and we're really not going to talk about him a whole lot in this to stay on topic anyways. Anyway, that's what I got for that. That's the end of that interview or inquisition. All right, Michael, this has been fascinating. You have done your homework.

2:11:21 But I want to stop right here because we're about two hours and 15 minutes in and we haven't even really got to the teachings of Musser yet. So let's go ahead. Let's take a pause here. Let's come back next week. Let's finish up his history, going to his teachings, and then kind of wrap this whole thing up, if you're good with that. All right. Bye, everybody.

2:12:01 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade Podcast.