Episode #82: The Life & Ministry Of Joseph W. Musser Part 1 W/Michael Ness

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So I have to tell you, I am
super excited about these next

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two episodes.
This week and next week I'll be

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releasing episodes about a man
who, in my estimation, might be

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considered the godfather of 95%
of Mormon fundamentalism, Joseph

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W Muster.
I have Matt Michael Ness on who

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has done some amazing research
and knows his stuff on muster.

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On this part one about Muster,
we discussed Muster's early life

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as a boy, including his
interactions with Pioneer era

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leaders of the LDS church, the
role in example his father

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played in his life, his entering
into plural marriage post

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manifesto, and his nineteen O 9
disciplinary council Along the

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way.
In this conversation you'll

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become a witness through muster
of a time in the LDS Church

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where the fullness of the gospel
was trying to be lived while

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enemies of the fullness are
applying pressure both within

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and without the LDS church.
As the events that would forever

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alter the course of the LDS
Church are taking place.

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Brother Muster is right in the
middle of it all.

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On this episode, not only will
you come to a better

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understanding of Brother Muster,
but also the Mormon

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fundamentalist movement as a
whole.

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Stick around for an amazing
conversation on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse to become and

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raise men and women of virtue
and characters, a herculean

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task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com, go to the
bottom of the page, search out

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the blog post, and order your
copy.

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Today I can bear personal
testimony from personal

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experience that this is an
invaluable tool to help you

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raise men and women of virtue
and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Dude, how's it going?
It's going good.

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Tell me about tell me about
what?

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It's like being a dad now.
Oh, it's all sorts of joy.

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I don't think there's one bad
thing about it so far, yeah.

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No, not at all.
You got a super, super nervous

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at first obviously and but no,
it's it's a joy.

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Even when he's trying his head
off, it's just like.

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Dude, why you have to be so cute
when you're when you're doing

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that, I don't know.
And of course, other people

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around me don't always feel the
same, but at least I think he's

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always pretty.
Let me let me tell you

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something, because if I'm not
mistaken, there's about 20 years

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between you and I.
And here's the thing.

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What's that?
That's possible.

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Yep.
Yep.

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As you pointed out last episode
we did today.

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But as as and as my kid, my
older kids started growing and

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leaving home, what I noticed was
you freak out way more about

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your own kid crying than you do
about anybody else's, right?

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And for people whose kids have
left home, it just brings back

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memories, is all right.
So never get too selfconscious

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about that because really at the
end of the day, it's not a big

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deal at all.
You guys sleeping through the

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night yet?
Yeah, I don't have a problem

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with that generally.
It doesn't seem like, And he's

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not terrible.
He's not terrible by any

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stretches of the imagination.
Only problem I have sleeping is

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it's so darn hot here sometimes,
and that's a whole another

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issue.
Dude, it's hot here, but it's a

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dry heat, right?
I'd prefer that in the middle.

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I was just out in Idaho, right.
And when we saw each other last

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you know did working in that he
I'd do that and he I'll take

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that. 10 times out of 10,
overworking and humidity, dude,

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I'll tell you what, I've worked
in like Phoenix and and you know

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Arizona down in Tucson and I'll
take 120 if it's a dry heat,

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right?
If if I remember working on the

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East Coast and it was 80 degrees
with 80% humidity and I'm like,

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I'm done, I'm done.
Pack it in.

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Yeah, I don't know what the
humidity level was today, but

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you know, so I I was cramming
for this thing before we got on

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because I actually did have some
work today and it was 88

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degrees, but the feel like was
99.

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And so I don't know what that
factors in percentage wise for

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humidity, but yeah, that was a
that's a big.

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Jumped in the heat index.
But anyways, we can talk about

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weather all day long and not get
anywhere.

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Absolutely.
So dude, we're about to have a

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pretty epic conversation here
about about someone who who in

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fundamentalism casts a large
shadow in a good way.

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I.
Know, I've heard him called the

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godfather of the Mormon
fundamentalism before.

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Yeah.
And there's certain people in

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fundamentalism that leave that
shadow.

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But I, you know, you could
certainly look at Ogden Kraut,

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you could look at at the sitting
brother sitting, you could look

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at Brother Allred.
But they all seem to kind of

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start with Joseph Musser.
And that's kind of what we

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wanted to talk about here a
little bit.

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When you first said that you had
a bunch of information on

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Musser, my eye I I perked up
quite a bit because I feel like

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with with Ruin Allred, we have a
lot of information on him,

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right?
We have books, you know that,

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that he wrote his compiled
teachings and those are

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absolutely fantastic.
I have treasures of knowledge

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that were were given to me as a
gift.

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And I'll tell you what, I go to
those about once, not once,

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probably two or three times a
week just because they're great.

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But I I find that we don't
necessarily have that with

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muster, right?
Yeah, as far as the collected

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works like sermons, you're
right, the there was a

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collaboration between the group
known as the Church of Jesus

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Christ of Latter Day Saints in
the Kingdom of God or the

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shorthand version as the Nielsen
Naylor Group.

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There's a collaboration between
them with Ivan Nielsen and the

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Allreds where they put together
a a book.

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The spanned the sermons from
1940 to 45.

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That's actually like, but that's
such a small fragment of his,

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you know, tenure as as a leader,
right?

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But it's good.
I've read it.

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I've gone through it all.
I wish I had a personal copy of

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it.
That's pretty good.

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I I probably will get one you
know, to eventually.

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But I got some quotes out of it
for this presentation because

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when I was reading it, I snagged
a lot of cool things that I

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thought were.
You know, stood out.

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You know, historically they were
significant.

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Awesome.
Pack rat for For anything

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history on this kind of, you
know, this kind of deal, right.

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OK, so before we jump into a lot
of the teachings, let's just

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give let's give an idea of who
Musser was.

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Oh yeah, I wanted to.
I wanted to start by talking

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about his father.
I don't think that we're going

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to be able.
I don't think we're going to do

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with this, man.
As good a justice as we could if

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we don't start with his with his
birthright and but I would like

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to preface before we dive into
that even you know Joseph Musser

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everyone everyone in in Mormon
fundamentalism wants to own

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Joseph Musser as their guy like
he he is connected in one way

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shape or form and we're going to
see this by the way he he's

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everyone's guy and and so.
Coming from where I'm coming

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from I know people on both sides
of this of the of splits that

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have happened right and and kind
of these things that happened

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formed party lines right where
it's OK so whose guy was he

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really and and but so I I don't
I'm not intending to make one

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group or one claim sound better
than the other with us

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whatsoever and I so I don't.
Mean to do that if that's what

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it comes across as doing because
I have friends in all camps with

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with this and so I want those
friends who are listening to

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this to know that I'm not trying
to to you know I'm not an Allred

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and I'm not not an Allred either
necessarily.

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I really think ultimately when
that happened in the 50s,

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everyone lost something
ultimately and and if it could

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have been avoided.
Into the degree that it

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happened.
And there's always going to be

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splits or people are always
going to apostatize.

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But I don't think that division
in the night in the early 50s

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was really as worth splitting
over as it as it turned out to

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be.
And we're going to, we're going

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to kind of see that and and I
hope that people who have been

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kind of entrenched in that can
kind of that be helped when they

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through this presentation.
Sure.

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And see if things have been
differently.

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And so I'm not attacking anyone,
it's just.

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This is my take on, like you
said, all the the sources that

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I've accumulated and that I've
gone through lately.

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So real quick, who was he?
I mean for let's just say

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there's there's an LDS listener
who has no idea who who muster

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was who.
Who was he?

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Joseph White Muster was probably
best said to be the last link.

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Between old pioneer Mormonism
and modern Mormonism like that,

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those areas like he he was born
in such a way that he remembers

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President Brigham Young as a
boy, as a young boy, remembers

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John Taylor as an early, you
know, young teenager and grew up

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in this formative years during
Wilfred Woodruff's presidency

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and.
It looks by by and large in his

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early adulthood his file
leadership was the 1st president

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were were members of the first
Presidency of the church he was

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on.
He was on very good terms with

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Joseph F Smith, John Henry Smith
and Anthony H Lund, who were all

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members of the First Presidency
at one point, I believe.

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Holy cow.
You know, and and so this this

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guy we're going to see, like,
this guy's not nobody.

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Yeah, he was, he was.
He was definitely on the fast

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track to the apostleship in the
church, for sure.

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I think I I absolutely I would.
I would think so.

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He was really good friends with
several of the apostles, not

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just those in the First
Presidency I mentioned.

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But so was his father.
You know and we're gonna, we're

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gonna, this is going to be
interesting.

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But he he believes, you know,
and he testified, this was his

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testimony that Wilfred Woodruff
and others, you know, Lorenzo

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Snow especially.
Commissioned him to keep plural

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marriage alive no matter what,
no matter what the church was

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doing, despite what the
manifesto said to do.

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And he was following his orders
that I'm going to keep the

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principle of celestial plural
marriage alive no matter what

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happens, and I'm going to do it
on my own responsibility.

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And that's what he testified was
his Commission.

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And that that Commission was
given to other men, not just him

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as well.
So he was commissioned by

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Lorenzo Snow and Wilford
Woodruff.

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Him, not personally with Wilfred
Woodruff, but with Lorenzo Snow,

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was the first person to kind of
give him a last charge like

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that, you know, and Joseph F
Smith for sure.

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And he would testify later.
And I don't know if I got these

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in my this part of my notes, but
he says that he knew through

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George Cuchanan about the 1886
events.

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Wow, holy cow.
So he's an influential

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fundamentalist leader and
probably the the, like you said,

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the godfather of fundamentalism.
Right.

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So where does he grow up?
Let's, let's, let's go back

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there because I know you.
Were Salt Lake He grew up in?

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Salt Lake.
Salt Lake Valley?

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Salt Lake City?
Yep.

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Now what?
Who were his parents?

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Amos Milton Musser was his
father.

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I actually don't have his
mother's name written down in my

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00:13:23,870 --> 00:13:28,300
notes.
But I think we should dive into

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00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:31,140
Brother Milton Muster.
This is going to be this is

227
00:13:31,140 --> 00:13:33,860
going to be awesome.
So Milton Muster was born, I

228
00:13:33,860 --> 00:13:39,380
believe, in Pennsylvania, and he
moved to Quincy, IL in 1837,

229
00:13:39,820 --> 00:13:43,980
which is just like serendipitous
timing for all sorts of things,

230
00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:46,900
because Quincy was the place
where the Saints first went once

231
00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:48,580
they were driven from from
Missouri.

232
00:13:48,820 --> 00:13:51,020
And the the inhabitants of
Quincy were like the most

233
00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:53,740
generous and charitable in
helping the Saints get back on

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00:13:53,740 --> 00:13:56,800
their feet.
And he, Amos Milton Muster

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00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,280
became pretty much a dry Mormon
because at that point his his

236
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,360
mom remarried a guy who was a
member of the church.

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00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,480
And some of his older sisters, I
think 2 married married members

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00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,120
of the church and it converted.
And except for he didn't, he did

239
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,640
not join the church for a few
years.

240
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:18,920
And it's interesting because he
when the Saints left.

241
00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:24,450
Navu in 1846 he stayed behind
and he wasn't a member of the

242
00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:28,690
church yet and he but he took
part of the battle of Navu on

243
00:14:28,690 --> 00:14:33,730
September 10th 1846 when about
1000 anti Mormon you know in a

244
00:14:33,730 --> 00:14:38,410
mob came to the city and you
know and tried to drive people

245
00:14:38,410 --> 00:14:40,930
out.
And there was about 150

246
00:14:40,930 --> 00:14:44,730
defenders left in the city under
the under the authority and

247
00:14:44,730 --> 00:14:48,210
command of a future apostle and
member of the First Presidency,

248
00:14:48,210 --> 00:14:52,570
Daniel H Wells.
And so in his young, you know,

249
00:14:52,610 --> 00:14:56,290
late teens, you know, you know,
dry Mormon as you know, as I've

250
00:14:56,290 --> 00:14:59,050
always called it, you know, he's
fighting for the for these

251
00:14:59,050 --> 00:15:00,130
people.
It's just I think it's

252
00:15:00,130 --> 00:15:05,330
interesting.
And so after after a little bit

253
00:15:05,330 --> 00:15:08,610
of fighting, you know, Daniel H
Wells calls a ceasefire and they

254
00:15:08,610 --> 00:15:12,850
basically decide to leave, you
know, and so he they, they then

255
00:15:12,850 --> 00:15:18,050
go to Council Bluffs, IA, right.
And there he is baptized by

256
00:15:18,050 --> 00:15:22,830
James Allred.
Interesting.

257
00:15:23,270 --> 00:15:25,590
It is interesting.
So I had to do the research on

258
00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:28,750
who James Allred was.
And it's so James Allred is very

259
00:15:28,750 --> 00:15:31,990
interesting.
James Allred wife was one of the

260
00:15:31,990 --> 00:15:36,750
first people that Joseph Smith
told how to and instructed her

261
00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:39,950
how to sell a garment the
garments of the holy priesthood.

262
00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:46,630
So these this is so fascinating
that even in these early early

263
00:15:46,630 --> 00:15:49,990
days we're seeing this
connections between the, you

264
00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:55,070
know Allreds and and muster
that's that's fascinating stuff.

265
00:15:55,310 --> 00:15:56,910
No, it is.
It's right off the bat.

266
00:15:56,910 --> 00:16:01,150
And so James Allred was an uncle
to ruin.

267
00:16:01,150 --> 00:16:02,670
See.
Allred's great grandfather.

268
00:16:02,830 --> 00:16:05,710
So ruin.
See, ruin, ruin.

269
00:16:05,710 --> 00:16:07,870
Allred's father was Byron Harvey
Allred.

270
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:11,790
Junior and so senior generation
past that and that.

271
00:16:11,790 --> 00:16:13,790
His father was William Moore
Allred.

272
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:17,270
William Moore Allred and James
Allred were brothers, OK?

273
00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:23,870
No, William William Moore Allred
was James Allred's nephew.

274
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:25,470
Sorry.
That's that's correct.

275
00:16:28,950 --> 00:16:32,390
After being baptized by James
Allred, Milton Musser was

276
00:16:32,670 --> 00:16:37,550
confirmed by Apostle Orson Hyde
as a member of the church.

277
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:43,640
He received his endowment on
December 17th, 1851, five years

278
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:48,040
later, likely at the council
house because the endowment

279
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,400
house was not yet finished in
Salt Lake and the Council house

280
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,160
was a building that was two
stories and it was 45 by 45 it

281
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,520
was a 45 foot square building, 2
two stories.

282
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,880
And they did do endowments and
other ordinances in those in

283
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,839
that building before the
endowment house was finished.

284
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:13,319
He served a mission in India
starting in 1852, and one of his

285
00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:17,520
first mission companions was
Samuel Amos Wooley, who was a

286
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,240
younger brother to Edwin D
Wooley.

287
00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:26,079
Yeah, I know.
It's just nuts.

288
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:33,280
It's a like you can't.
Like if you took it to Hollywood

289
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,800
and said here's a script, they'd
be like, it's too unbelievable.

290
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,120
We'll stick with, you know,
aliens and and you know, The

291
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:42,440
Avengers, but this is too
unbelievable.

292
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,360
No, no, I know it.
So Samuel Samuel Wooley was the

293
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,920
younger brother to Edwin D
Wooley, which makes him John

294
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,120
John W Wooley's uncle, right?
So.

295
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,160
So Joseph Muster's father's
first mission companion is

296
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,840
serving with John W Wooley's
uncle, right?

297
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:01,520
And it was for it was only for a
little bit.

298
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:02,920
But that they left.
They left on their mission

299
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,360
together.
They left Salt Lake together.

300
00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:12,420
And Samuel Amos Wooley was,
along with John W Wooley was one

301
00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:16,420
of the the whittlers of Navu.
You know where they were, the

302
00:18:16,420 --> 00:18:19,780
the young young boys or teenage
boys that would follow

303
00:18:19,820 --> 00:18:23,500
undesirable characters around
Navu while whittling sticks with

304
00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:27,420
their long knives and singing
and and and whistling right and

305
00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:32,470
scaring off the apostates, Boy,
I'll bet you teachers quorum

306
00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:34,630
with something else back then.
Oh sure.

307
00:18:36,670 --> 00:18:39,990
So and by the way, if you have
any questions or you need to

308
00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:42,470
interject something or we like
and to open something up to a

309
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:44,830
discussion, like dude, you just
you just do it.

310
00:18:45,150 --> 00:18:48,230
And I'll just try to keep, we'll
keep the flow going.

311
00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:53,870
So Milton must muster leaves in
1852 for India and he returns in

312
00:18:53,870 --> 00:18:59,190
Utah in 1857.
That's a five year mission.

313
00:19:01,940 --> 00:19:07,660
And this is one of those times I
want to point out just how flat

314
00:19:07,660 --> 00:19:10,580
gangster early Mormonism really
is, right?

315
00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:15,340
I mean, everything about the,
the, the whole story, right?

316
00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:19,620
Like in Joseph Smith you have a
charismatic teacher who's

317
00:19:19,940 --> 00:19:23,460
upending Victorian sensibilities
of the time.

318
00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:27,900
Then you have Brigham Young who
goes really gangster and like

319
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,320
we're going to load up and we're
going to go over the plains and

320
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,560
up into the mountains.
And then for everyone else, it's

321
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,520
five year missions in India,
right.

322
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,520
I mean just and.
I was complaining about humidity

323
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:41,760
at the beginning of this
podcast.

324
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,920
I should not just in, pardon the
expressions earmuffs for any of

325
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,960
the parents with kids.
It's just straight badassery,

326
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:52,600
right?
I don't know how else to talk,

327
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,660
say it.
It's just it.

328
00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:59,220
It really is just an incredible
story with incredible players.

329
00:20:00,140 --> 00:20:02,140
Oh it's going to get better.
We're we're barely scratching

330
00:20:02,140 --> 00:20:06,580
the surface so the the majority
of his mission wasn't India.

331
00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:12,460
But he he gets called home and
he takes A and there's dude we

332
00:20:12,460 --> 00:20:14,460
can do another podcast on his
mission stories.

333
00:20:14,860 --> 00:20:18,540
But like basically they they
they barely made it to India in

334
00:20:18,540 --> 00:20:23,780
the 1st place based on some some
events and because of things

335
00:20:23,780 --> 00:20:26,380
that happened with the ship's
captain like they're you know

336
00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:29,180
and and and brother Musser
they're able to get there.

337
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:33,100
Well the same captain of the
ship comes around near the end

338
00:20:33,100 --> 00:20:35,620
of his mission and something
similar happens and you know he

339
00:20:35,620 --> 00:20:38,820
needs he needs to get to England
on his way back to the United

340
00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:40,700
States.
And lo and behold it's the it's

341
00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:43,700
the same captain that brought
him, you know five years earlier

342
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:48,900
and they bring so he brings him
to England, you know and and he

343
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:50,660
stays for like almost a full
year.

344
00:20:50,660 --> 00:20:54,410
What is last year in England
before returning to Utah and he

345
00:20:54,410 --> 00:20:59,570
gets acquainted with Orson Pratt
and the other apostles who are

346
00:20:59,770 --> 00:21:02,930
kind of filtering through the
mission in England and people

347
00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:05,930
start taking notice of them.
In fact, I I want to say he even

348
00:21:05,930 --> 00:21:09,010
edited one of the Millennial
Star editions while he was on

349
00:21:09,010 --> 00:21:12,450
his mission there.
And if I'm not mistaken, some of

350
00:21:12,450 --> 00:21:17,490
those millennial stars are where
we extract many parts of the

351
00:21:17,490 --> 00:21:21,410
Journal of Discourses, right?
Maybe the other way around.

352
00:21:21,410 --> 00:21:23,970
I don't know.
And I can, but I can be wrong.

353
00:21:23,970 --> 00:21:26,810
I mean, I know the Adam God
sermon for Brigham Young in the

354
00:21:26,810 --> 00:21:30,010
Journal of Discourses was then
published in the Millennial Star

355
00:21:30,010 --> 00:21:32,450
in England.
And Samuel L Richards was

356
00:21:32,450 --> 00:21:34,090
mission president at the time, I
believe.

357
00:21:34,090 --> 00:21:36,490
And he was like, yeah, if you
don't believe this, you're not

358
00:21:36,490 --> 00:21:42,810
getting baptized.
You know, it's those

359
00:21:42,890 --> 00:21:47,210
inconvenient truths that I just
love to fixate on Michael.

360
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:51,380
On me too.
Anyway, let's go.

361
00:21:51,380 --> 00:21:54,900
Let's go on.
So he gets back in 1857 and he

362
00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:56,700
quickly becomes friends with
Brigham Young.

363
00:21:57,580 --> 00:22:01,260
You know the the his Brigham's
constituents have taken notice

364
00:22:01,260 --> 00:22:04,020
of him.
And Brigham Young makes him the

365
00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:06,500
clerk of the church store in
Salt Lake City.

366
00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:09,260
And I don't know what the name
of it was then or what it what

367
00:22:09,260 --> 00:22:14,420
it was, but it's like the
general store before ZCMI or or

368
00:22:14,420 --> 00:22:16,980
whatever.
But but Milton Mustard is made

369
00:22:17,410 --> 00:22:21,130
the clerk for that.
And then he is made the

370
00:22:21,130 --> 00:22:25,170
traveling Bishop of the church
in 1860, and he serves in that

371
00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:29,370
office from 1860 to 1876.
So do you know what a traveling

372
00:22:29,370 --> 00:22:30,770
Bishop is?
No.

373
00:22:32,810 --> 00:22:36,170
So I didn't either.
I mean, I I've heard the term,

374
00:22:36,170 --> 00:22:38,890
but I I it's never something
that was interesting enough for

375
00:22:38,890 --> 00:22:46,250
me to go and research, you know?
But as a traveling Bishop,

376
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,560
Milton Muster made a reputation
that he would travel a circuit

377
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,800
of all the major settlements in
Utah at least twice a year, not

378
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,520
just collecting the tithing, but
distributing goods across the

379
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,760
settlements as tithing was paid
in kind back in those days.

380
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,080
Wow.
So he was responsible for

381
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,400
managing all the Bishop
storehouses, basically making

382
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,520
sure that they were all flowing
and connected and everyone was

383
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,100
getting what they needed.
And he he do a circuit to Utah

384
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:24,940
twice a year.
Holy cow, I you know, I hear

385
00:23:24,940 --> 00:23:28,460
about that and it again, that's
one of the things that made me

386
00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:35,220
fall in love with Mormonism.
Was this just the the those old

387
00:23:35,220 --> 00:23:39,620
stories of of how the Church
operated even back then, right?

388
00:23:40,060 --> 00:23:42,780
I mean, it's not like they could
jump on a zoom call.

389
00:23:43,310 --> 00:23:45,790
It's not like they could
communicate through e-mail

390
00:23:46,110 --> 00:23:49,910
there, you know you got a guy
out there braving Indian

391
00:23:49,910 --> 00:23:53,190
territory to fulfill the Lord's
work.

392
00:23:54,790 --> 00:23:57,150
And.
And his father, Muster's father

393
00:23:57,150 --> 00:24:01,830
seems to be somebody that
Brigham Young has put a lot of

394
00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:06,150
stock into, right?
Because and that was the one

395
00:24:06,150 --> 00:24:08,110
thing is that Brigham was
notorious.

396
00:24:08,110 --> 00:24:11,150
I shouldn't say notorious, Maybe
notorious.

397
00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:14,260
For not just handing those
callings out, right.

398
00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:17,820
Obviously there was revelation
involved, but there was a

399
00:24:17,820 --> 00:24:19,980
certain amount of you had to
kind of prove yourself.

400
00:24:20,620 --> 00:24:22,500
I mean, all right, so look at
this way too.

401
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:26,940
I mean he was released from that
calling in 1876.

402
00:24:26,940 --> 00:24:30,060
That's, I mean he didn't get
fired from messing up for 16

403
00:24:30,060 --> 00:24:34,780
years and he was only released,
you know, a year before Brigham

404
00:24:34,780 --> 00:24:36,740
Young died.
So that's the whole 10 year

405
00:24:36,740 --> 00:24:37,900
shift.
Pretty much of Brigham Young's

406
00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:42,050
life that that Milton muster is,
is in this trusted position

407
00:24:42,490 --> 00:24:44,010
pretty much.
Yeah.

408
00:24:44,010 --> 00:24:46,490
And he's not answering to
anybody else, but probably

409
00:24:46,490 --> 00:24:48,650
Brigham, right?
Maybe.

410
00:24:48,650 --> 00:24:52,410
I don't know what the state of
the Presiding Bishop Rick was at

411
00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:54,490
that point in early early Utah
history.

412
00:24:54,490 --> 00:24:56,770
But yeah, maybe that to a degree
too.

413
00:24:56,810 --> 00:24:58,610
But yeah, you're you're pretty
much right.

414
00:25:00,250 --> 00:25:02,250
It tells you a lot about the
man's character.

415
00:25:02,250 --> 00:25:05,410
If Brigham had that kind of
trust in him, oh, it's going to

416
00:25:05,410 --> 00:25:10,570
get better this way.
So he so he marries Mary

417
00:25:10,570 --> 00:25:15,450
Elizabeth White in 1864 as his
second wife, and she is the

418
00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:21,530
mother of Joseph W Musser.
His third wife was Belinda

419
00:25:21,530 --> 00:25:23,570
Pratt, daughter of Harley P
Pratt.

420
00:25:24,810 --> 00:25:28,290
Now Belinda Pratt had previously
been married to a famous author

421
00:25:28,290 --> 00:25:31,930
named TBH Stenhouse, who
apostatized later during the

422
00:25:31,930 --> 00:25:34,850
Gobbi movement.
Apostasy thing.

423
00:25:35,570 --> 00:25:38,660
Are you familiar with with that?
Tell us what that is.

424
00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:41,700
What?
What were the guys put me on?

425
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:45,940
On On the spot there is a
William S Godby I think was the

426
00:25:46,740 --> 00:25:48,980
the guy that the movements named
after.

427
00:25:49,740 --> 00:25:52,820
He had some problems and I think
he was a merchant.

428
00:25:52,820 --> 00:25:55,620
What was part of the problem?
He had some problems with some

429
00:25:55,620 --> 00:25:59,300
economic reforms that Brigham
Young was putting into practice

430
00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:03,220
because there was competition
between church mercantile stuff

431
00:26:03,220 --> 00:26:04,940
and and Gentile mercantile
stuff.

432
00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:11,920
And so there was, I guess, hurt
feelings over business and

433
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:17,480
feeling like there was too much
control, you know, over his, you

434
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,480
know, things that weren't, you
know, that he didn't want to be

435
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,560
considered ecclesiastical, I
guess, you know.

436
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:28,280
And it turns into a big thing
like it's like, yeah, we need to

437
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:29,360
reform.
And I think it.

438
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,240
I don't even.
I think it turned into

439
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,140
antipolygamy at one point.
As the movement developed, it

440
00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:38,940
turned into spiritualism and and
like seances and and I.

441
00:26:38,980 --> 00:26:41,820
Was going to say if I'm not
mistaken, God bees one of the

442
00:26:41,820 --> 00:26:47,100
guys who was the founder of the
Alta Club and the Alta Club was

443
00:26:47,180 --> 00:26:51,420
a club that was for quote,
Gentiles and like the whole

444
00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:54,340
thrust of the club it's still a
thing here in Salt Lake.

445
00:26:55,980 --> 00:27:00,020
And and their whole thrust was
to demomormonize Utah so to

446
00:27:00,020 --> 00:27:04,300
speak.
In an effort to rival Deseret

447
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:06,420
News they started the Salt Lake
Tribune.

448
00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:10,220
The Salt Lake Tribune is, is God
be I right.

449
00:27:10,220 --> 00:27:12,100
Which makes sense now that you
think about it, right?

450
00:27:12,340 --> 00:27:14,060
Yeah, yeah.
No.

451
00:27:14,060 --> 00:27:16,980
And and for any listeners out
there, I could have gotten that

452
00:27:16,980 --> 00:27:18,580
wrong.
But I think he was one of the

453
00:27:18,580 --> 00:27:21,500
main founders of the Alpha Club,
or at least one of the earliest

454
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:25,100
members.
And what what I find interesting

455
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:29,300
is that it's not very long after
the Saints get to Utah.

456
00:27:29,910 --> 00:27:33,750
That you start seeing people
yearn for Babylon a little bit,

457
00:27:34,270 --> 00:27:37,710
right?
And because, you know, Brigham

458
00:27:38,310 --> 00:27:41,510
had other ideas, he wanted to
keep following what Joseph had

459
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:45,070
talked about this idea of, and I
have no other word for it.

460
00:27:45,070 --> 00:27:48,670
I think the word that best
describes it if you're an

461
00:27:48,670 --> 00:27:51,950
outsider looking in is is a
counterculture, right?

462
00:27:51,950 --> 00:27:54,510
They want to counterculture
within the United States.

463
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:57,590
At that time, it wasn't even the
United States.

464
00:27:57,590 --> 00:28:00,660
It was still out, you know.
Outside of the United States,

465
00:28:00,660 --> 00:28:08,500
but continental United States.
And it's not very much longer

466
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:11,780
after that that people start
yearning for for Babylon again,

467
00:28:11,780 --> 00:28:14,860
which which I find just amazing.
Yeah.

468
00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:18,980
They had about 10 to 12 years
where they had relative peace.

469
00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:25,660
And then Johnson's army came in
in 185758 and they brought, they

470
00:28:25,660 --> 00:28:31,240
brought whores and and all, you
know, gamblers and you know

471
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,360
shysters and eventually other
businessmen and their merchants

472
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:39,960
and wears and miners and open up
mines and all sorts of things

473
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,400
and they brought that with them.
The army did when they came out.

474
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:48,080
And from that point it was and I
I have to go off on a tangent on

475
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,240
this one but I I part of me
wishes to this day that Brigham

476
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,840
Young had burned Salt Lake City
to the ground because that's

477
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,560
what they're going to do.
They had, they had every house

478
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,200
filled with hay and straw and
with people ready to light the

479
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,840
houses on fire and and set the
gardens on fire and the cut all

480
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,000
the trees down and everything.
And they were going to believe.

481
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,320
And basically everyone had
evacuated Salt Lake City and

482
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,920
they were camping out in Provo
pretty much with the intention

483
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,880
of them moving further South.
And that's where John, that's

484
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,080
when John W Taylor, you know,
future apostle John W Taylor was

485
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,370
born during those events when
they're He and his mom were

486
00:29:27,370 --> 00:29:32,130
living in a chicken coop in
Provo during the Johnson's Army

487
00:29:32,850 --> 00:29:35,330
stuff.
Dude, this is right before

488
00:29:35,330 --> 00:29:38,370
Pioneer Day.
And as we talk about this stuff

489
00:29:39,090 --> 00:29:44,450
and and this is when when I get
a little spicy, right?

490
00:29:45,250 --> 00:29:50,610
Because I feel like, look, these
people certainly not.

491
00:29:51,740 --> 00:29:53,860
I can't claim anybody as my
forefathers.

492
00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:58,020
I'm a Mormon, first generation
on either side, but you've

493
00:29:58,060 --> 00:30:00,700
you've adopted them.
Yeah, yeah, I have.

494
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:06,300
But damn it, they bled for it,
right?

495
00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:09,860
They they left their footprints
in the West for it.

496
00:30:09,860 --> 00:30:12,660
They buried their loved ones on
the trail.

497
00:30:13,060 --> 00:30:16,180
They got here.
They carved the society out of

498
00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:21,610
the desert and.
All the things that they kind of

499
00:30:21,610 --> 00:30:25,690
bled and died for that were
unique to Mormonism now feels

500
00:30:25,690 --> 00:30:30,570
like Mormons in, I shouldn't say
in general.

501
00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:34,690
Many sects of Mormonism can't
wait to get away from that.

502
00:30:35,850 --> 00:30:39,610
And I find it a travesty.
Yeah, no, we don't know what

503
00:30:39,610 --> 00:30:42,210
sacrifice means yet.
No.

504
00:30:42,490 --> 00:30:45,210
So anyway, back to the story.
So so.

505
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,080
Mother's dad is is a traveling
Bishop.

506
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,160
Yep, and it doesn't end there
with his callings.

507
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:01,040
He is so in 1867, Brigham Young
organizes a School of the

508
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,680
Prophets in Salt Lake City and
he then he proceeds to organize

509
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,040
different chapters of School of
the Prophets in Pace in Utah,

510
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:18,020
Paris, Idaho, Parowan, Utah.
And I think there's one location

511
00:31:18,020 --> 00:31:24,020
I'm missing.
In any case he Milton muster

512
00:31:24,020 --> 00:31:27,940
becomes he's present at as a
member of the Salt Lake City

513
00:31:27,940 --> 00:31:32,300
School of the Prophets as early
as July 11th, 1868.

514
00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:36,340
So a year after it was organized
and he would periodically teach

515
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:39,340
lessons to those assembled.
So he was he was given the the

516
00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:42,220
duties of being the instructor
and like makes sense.

517
00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:46,640
He's likely, you know, teaching
the duties of that his calling,

518
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,560
being a Bishop and you know the
ironic priesthood he would

519
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,880
appear in the pace in school,
the prophets on February 20th,

520
00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:02,760
1869 and September 23rd, 1871.
And those, those schools in

521
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:08,800
particular, from what I remember
that a lot of us give a lot of

522
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,800
what was talked about was
temporal self-sufficiency.

523
00:32:13,820 --> 00:32:17,100
Every once in a while you'll get
a discussion like what do we

524
00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:18,540
think about the Adam God
doctrine?

525
00:32:18,540 --> 00:32:20,740
Like that happens every once in
a while in those in those

526
00:32:20,740 --> 00:32:22,580
meetings.
But the vast majority of it was

527
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:27,220
what's the best way to raise our
crops or how do we, you know, or

528
00:32:27,220 --> 00:32:32,260
whatever, you know.
So this is interesting too in

529
00:32:32,260 --> 00:32:36,780
1876, and this is probably why
he was dropped from his calling

530
00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:41,020
as traveling Bishop, because in
1876 he was made assistant

531
00:32:41,020 --> 00:32:46,340
trustee and trust of the church.
So he moved up, so to speak.

532
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:54,220
Yeah, no, he he was legally able
to sign documents, act as the

533
00:32:54,260 --> 00:32:59,380
church legally.
And what year did what year did

534
00:32:59,380 --> 00:33:02,380
Brigham die?
1877 August.

535
00:33:03,060 --> 00:33:08,700
So a year before Brigham dies,
Brigham says we're going to make

536
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:11,700
him.
Yeah, he's basically my

537
00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:13,240
assistant.
Right.

538
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,160
Brigham kind of made him as his
second in command when it came

539
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:24,440
right before he died.
Right before he died, looks

540
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,920
like.
Yes, like as far as I I my

541
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,400
understanding is Brigham Young
was trustee and Trump.

542
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:36,840
Lostee again, real quick.
All right, I just I my Internet

543
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,360
looks fine, but I went ahead and
switched it to something else.

544
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,540
I'll edit this out but.
So, So he's put in as like

545
00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:46,580
second in command to bring him
as far as finances of the

546
00:33:46,580 --> 00:33:49,860
church.
He's able to essentially sign

547
00:33:49,860 --> 00:33:53,620
documents as the church.
He's able to administer in all

548
00:33:53,620 --> 00:33:57,260
the affairs financially for the
church, if I'm understanding

549
00:33:57,540 --> 00:34:00,340
calling correctly.
And legally, yeah, legally.

550
00:34:00,340 --> 00:34:03,180
Representing the church as a
spokesman, Probably even, you

551
00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:06,780
know.
That's nuts.

552
00:34:07,060 --> 00:34:10,139
That's nuts.
And this is Muster's dad, right?

553
00:34:10,139 --> 00:34:13,100
This isn't like.
Musser's grandpappy or great

554
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:15,580
grandpappy?
No, this is this is Joseph White

555
00:34:15,580 --> 00:34:17,699
Musser's father, Amos Milton
Musser.

556
00:34:17,780 --> 00:34:18,860
Yeah.
Yes, Sir.

557
00:34:22,060 --> 00:34:24,340
So what do you think that tells
you about the character of his

558
00:34:24,340 --> 00:34:27,500
dad?
Oh, I think, I think he's great

559
00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:28,820
and we're we're not even done
with him yet.

560
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:31,620
Not even by long.
Like like if we're not, But no,

561
00:34:31,620 --> 00:34:34,940
I think I think I would.
I wish I could have known him.

562
00:34:34,940 --> 00:34:38,219
That's what I think when when I
read the when I read his life

563
00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:43,900
like it's it, it's awesome.
His life was awesome, highly

564
00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:46,739
blessed and and highly favored
to the Lord and it makes sense

565
00:34:47,620 --> 00:34:52,260
why the Lord would choose his
son to to do some work for him.

566
00:34:54,219 --> 00:34:59,140
So after being made trustee and
trust of the church and I don't

567
00:34:59,140 --> 00:35:01,460
have the year down here, he was
called on a mission to

568
00:35:01,460 --> 00:35:05,380
Pennsylvania with his mission
companion, Orson F Whitney.

569
00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:11,310
Dude, he's just slapping high
fives with like, all the

570
00:35:11,310 --> 00:35:13,350
brethren.
All the all the all the big

571
00:35:13,350 --> 00:35:15,150
names, right?
I mean, just, yeah.

572
00:35:16,510 --> 00:35:17,910
So.
And for those who don't know,

573
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:23,150
Orson F Whitney was a grandson
of President Heber C Kimball and

574
00:35:23,150 --> 00:35:26,630
a grandson of Newell K Whitney,
who was the presiding, the first

575
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:32,110
Presiding Bishop of the Church.
And Orson F Whitney's mother was

576
00:35:32,110 --> 00:35:37,540
Helen Mark Kimball Whitney
Smith, who was a plural wife to

577
00:35:37,540 --> 00:35:39,060
Joseph Smith.
Right.

578
00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:43,100
And the the probably the most
infamous one in in certain

579
00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:45,660
circles.
So I just, I just had a

580
00:35:45,660 --> 00:35:48,980
conversation with Hannah
Stoddard about Helen Mark

581
00:35:48,980 --> 00:35:53,300
Kimball, and that's going to be
out probably the week before

582
00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:55,020
this airs.
Awesome.

583
00:35:55,220 --> 00:35:57,340
Awesome.
Yeah, it it's.

584
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:03,420
And think about this as far as
service, right?

585
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:07,120
He serves five years in India.
Yeah, comes home.

586
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,480
It's not like he gets a little
calling, right?

587
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,400
You're going to be the traveling
Bishop you're responsible for,

588
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,280
for collecting and then passing
out all of these goods and

589
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:25,000
services to people.
And then he gets called as a as

590
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,240
kind of like the the second in
command as far as, you know,

591
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,000
being a representative for the
church financially and issuing

592
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,910
statements.
And we're going to call you now

593
00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:37,630
to go back to Pennsylvania and
be a missionary.

594
00:36:38,430 --> 00:36:44,750
Yep.
So and on that note Orson F

595
00:36:44,750 --> 00:36:47,870
Whitney was obviously impressed
enough with Milton Muster that

596
00:36:47,990 --> 00:36:51,270
Orson F Whitney wrote a
biography about Milton Muster

597
00:36:51,590 --> 00:36:55,310
later in his life.
So if you're if you're if you're

598
00:36:55,310 --> 00:36:58,590
interested in that you can
probably find that I, I and I I

599
00:36:58,590 --> 00:37:01,230
seen I think I got that's where
I got some of this information

600
00:37:01,230 --> 00:37:01,670
from.
I found.

601
00:37:01,710 --> 00:37:05,690
I think I found a copy.
How much of A stellar Rockstar

602
00:37:05,690 --> 00:37:09,570
do you got to be for Orson F
Whitney to be like, you know, I

603
00:37:09,570 --> 00:37:10,810
should write a book about this
guy.

604
00:37:10,810 --> 00:37:13,130
He's pretty cool.
I think the only two other

605
00:37:13,130 --> 00:37:16,010
individuals he did that with
would be Lorenzo Snow and his

606
00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:21,730
grandfather, Heber C Kimball.
That's some pretty rare air.

607
00:37:22,290 --> 00:37:26,250
Yeah, for sure.
So dude, this is going to get

608
00:37:26,250 --> 00:37:30,890
better from here.
In 1878, Milton Musser writes an

609
00:37:30,890 --> 00:37:34,490
article for the Deseret News as
a response to the actions and

610
00:37:34,490 --> 00:37:37,570
words of the Vice President
Colfax And that the Vice

611
00:37:37,570 --> 00:37:39,930
President of the United States,
who is an enemy to the church.

612
00:37:40,570 --> 00:37:44,090
And he in this article he
writes, quote, plural marriage

613
00:37:44,090 --> 00:37:48,010
is a vital and inextinguishable
tenet of our faith and cannot be

614
00:37:48,010 --> 00:37:51,090
disregarded.
It is in no sense a holiday

615
00:37:51,090 --> 00:37:54,690
affair, to be adopted or laid
aside at pleasure as well.

616
00:37:54,690 --> 00:37:58,690
Might modern zealots attempt to
vitiate our belief in deity as

617
00:37:58,690 --> 00:38:00,690
to unplant this principle of our
religion?

618
00:38:01,710 --> 00:38:05,910
End Quote.
So Michael, I thought, I thought

619
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:08,510
polygamy wasn't that big of a
deal to the early church.

620
00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:10,990
I I thought it was just kind of
a passing thing.

621
00:38:11,870 --> 00:38:15,870
Well Brother Muster would seem
to differ with you.

622
00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:18,990
And he he was he he was going to
take this.

623
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:22,950
This was the era where they, you
know, Brigham Young was dead and

624
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:27,430
gone now and they were trying to
take out John Taylor and they

625
00:38:27,430 --> 00:38:29,590
were, they were trying to put
the Mormonism in the dirt.

626
00:38:29,790 --> 00:38:33,910
And he's, he's taken these
people dead on.

627
00:38:33,910 --> 00:38:38,950
And the same year, in 1879, he
offered to give himself up to

628
00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:43,510
federal authorities admitting
his own violation of the law

629
00:38:43,550 --> 00:38:47,550
because you know, they had state
laws or territorial laws at this

630
00:38:47,550 --> 00:38:48,910
point enacted.
Right.

631
00:38:52,670 --> 00:38:55,710
And so he was going to give
himself up through his personal

632
00:38:55,710 --> 00:38:58,690
living of plural marriage in
order to basically provide a

633
00:38:58,690 --> 00:39:01,290
test case for the
constitutionality of the anti

634
00:39:01,290 --> 00:39:03,570
Bigamy act.
Basically, he was going to say

635
00:39:03,850 --> 00:39:08,090
let them arrest me and then
we'll we'll take it to a higher

636
00:39:08,090 --> 00:39:11,130
court.
And we're going to get and we're

637
00:39:11,130 --> 00:39:12,930
going to get this whole thing
worked out.

638
00:39:12,930 --> 00:39:15,610
And but he was, he wanted to be
like he was going to offer

639
00:39:15,610 --> 00:39:17,530
himself up to go to jail to do
that.

640
00:39:18,050 --> 00:39:25,490
And he believes very confidently
that his family, the, the, the

641
00:39:25,490 --> 00:39:30,360
high quality of caliber of kids
that he had would bear out any

642
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,640
suspicion or, you know,
basically withstand any

643
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,200
scrutiny.
You know, that this is a good

644
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,560
system.
You know, this is not an abusive

645
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:39,800
system.
This is a good system.

646
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,840
However, this offer was not
accepted and a former secretary

647
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,160
to President Brigham Young named
George Reynolds was chosen for

648
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:49,480
the test case.
All right.

649
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,640
I would like to say to those
listeners here, there's a few

650
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:58,440
names that we're going to go
over that appear in Joseph

651
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,440
Muster's life or or even Milton
Muster's life that then appear

652
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,080
in his son's life later.
Like there's certain names that

653
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,040
you got to pay attention to.
George Reynolds is kind of one

654
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,120
of them for the next little bit.
Yeah, George Reynolds was a

655
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,280
secretary to Brigham Young, but
it's in.

656
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,880
And So what we we know that as
the Jordan as the Reynolds case,

657
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:15,880
right?
Have you heard about that?

658
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:16,560
Right.
Yep.

659
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,120
So in an alternate history, that
would have been the muster case,

660
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,560
it was the same.
Same idea in the multiverse

661
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,720
somewhere, right?
And so I found, I found that

662
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:33,720
fascinating, you know, and so
we're going to, we're going to

663
00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:39,360
kind of jump into do we want to
do that here or is that the

664
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:44,760
wrong spot?
We're going to come back to that

665
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,600
one.
I have something my notes needs

666
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,600
to be rearranged.
But all right, so in eight in

667
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,850
1883, four years later.
Amos Milton Muster was

668
00:40:53,850 --> 00:40:57,490
subpoenaed as a witness in a
grand jury to answer questions

669
00:40:57,490 --> 00:40:59,490
considering his own marital
status.

670
00:41:00,530 --> 00:41:04,210
Which is interesting, you know,
considering he offered to do

671
00:41:04,210 --> 00:41:05,530
that.
And he wasn't hiding anything,

672
00:41:05,530 --> 00:41:08,610
obviously, but apparently there
wasn't enough evidence to

673
00:41:08,610 --> 00:41:11,090
convict him.
But afterwards, he goes on the

674
00:41:11,090 --> 00:41:15,690
underground.
And so now Amos Milton Muster

675
00:41:15,690 --> 00:41:18,450
becomes a character on the
infamous Mormon underground

676
00:41:18,450 --> 00:41:21,410
days, You know, which is
interesting.

677
00:41:22,260 --> 00:41:25,580
Yeah, yeah.
I'm just thinking about the

678
00:41:25,580 --> 00:41:29,660
breadth of history his dad saw.
Oh yeah, it's it's incredible.

679
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:34,180
It's incredible.
While on the underground, he was

680
00:41:34,180 --> 00:41:38,100
brought in again and arrested in
eight or or brought in for

681
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:42,380
questioning in 1884 and released
again, I guess without enough

682
00:41:42,380 --> 00:41:46,020
evidence to convict him.
He was caught again on April 1st

683
00:41:46,020 --> 00:41:51,880
in 1885 and was convicted OK.
So we're going to, we're going

684
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,320
to segue into another thing
though because it's around the

685
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,080
same time period Later in his
life Joseph Musser would write

686
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:08,560
and he published in in the Truth
Magazine, volume 20 about his

687
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,880
recollections of of Brigham
Young and John Taylor.

688
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:12,080
And I'll just quote it and read
it.

689
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,120
Quote as to his recollection of
meeting the early presidents of

690
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,560
the Church.
I guess this is Guy Muster

691
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,360
writing.
This Guy Muster writing about

692
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,760
his father Joseph Muster.
As to his collection

693
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,160
recollection of meeting the
early presidents of the Church,

694
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,760
he often related to his
experience of seeing President

695
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,680
Young as he lay in his coffin.
Also that he vaguely remembers

696
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,400
seeing him before his death.
Later, when old enough to

697
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,440
remember and understand, his
father invited him, meaning

698
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,920
Milton.
Muster right, his father invited

699
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,120
him.
Joseph Musser to attend a

700
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,720
meeting of the Grand Council of
the Kingdom of God.

701
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,680
He remembered this meeting of
how armed guards admitted the

702
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,560
invited guests.
His father, Amos Milton Musser

703
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,240
being a member of this Grand
Council, At this meeting he was

704
00:42:57,240 --> 00:43:01,120
introduced to he being John
Joseph Musser was introduced to

705
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,000
President John Taylor and heard
him speak.

706
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,600
So that's the end of that
quotation and I wanted to bring

707
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,650
that up right here because.
We're in the underground days,

708
00:43:09,650 --> 00:43:13,050
right where John Taylor is on
the road and he's got armed

709
00:43:13,050 --> 00:43:15,090
guards, you know, with him all
the time.

710
00:43:15,090 --> 00:43:18,490
You know, like Sam Samuel
Bateman and Joseph Muster

711
00:43:18,690 --> 00:43:21,850
testifying later in his life
that his father was.

712
00:43:22,970 --> 00:43:25,810
And we know we we're reading
that Joe's Amos Milton muster

713
00:43:25,810 --> 00:43:27,730
was on the underground.
John Taylor was on the

714
00:43:27,730 --> 00:43:31,450
underground.
And one of these days, in the

715
00:43:31,450 --> 00:43:35,330
early 1880s, Milton Muster says,
Son, you're old enough to come

716
00:43:35,450 --> 00:43:38,660
or whatever, and.
It was about the time where

717
00:43:39,420 --> 00:43:41,580
Joseph Lester would have been
about 12 or 13 years old.

718
00:43:42,940 --> 00:43:46,020
So formative.
I mean, yeah, at that age where

719
00:43:46,020 --> 00:43:47,460
you're starting to figure things
out.

720
00:43:47,740 --> 00:43:50,740
No, no, Let me ask you this.
Go, go back real quick.

721
00:43:50,740 --> 00:43:54,020
What was the name of the
organization, the the meeting

722
00:43:54,020 --> 00:43:57,540
that that he attended?
The Grand Council of the Kingdom

723
00:43:57,540 --> 00:43:58,740
of God, we're going to get into
that.

724
00:43:59,580 --> 00:44:01,980
Is that the Council of 50?
I think so.

725
00:44:01,980 --> 00:44:03,460
That's what I think is being
alluded to here.

726
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:06,620
It it sounds an awful lot like
the the Council of 50.

727
00:44:06,980 --> 00:44:08,500
Yeah, it.
Absolutely does.

728
00:44:11,020 --> 00:44:17,020
Also in Truth Magazine, Joseph
Muster would write how as a boy

729
00:44:17,260 --> 00:44:20,580
he while his father was on the
while his father was away on the

730
00:44:20,580 --> 00:44:25,060
underground, he would help other
plural wives in the community

731
00:44:25,820 --> 00:44:29,460
dodge the authorities.
And did it in one house out the

732
00:44:29,460 --> 00:44:32,460
back door to another house into
a secret compartment in the

733
00:44:32,460 --> 00:44:33,980
house.
Whatever this was a Joseph

734
00:44:33,980 --> 00:44:38,420
Musser was raised doing was was
hiding plural lives from the

735
00:44:38,740 --> 00:44:41,500
from the law.
No wonder.

736
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:45,420
I mean, you see the Lord's hand
like, get ready, son, because

737
00:44:45,420 --> 00:44:47,700
this is what I got for you for
the rest of your life.

738
00:44:48,140 --> 00:44:50,820
Yeah, and you know, I and I
never heard any of this from any

739
00:44:50,820 --> 00:44:53,290
fundamentalist.
That's amazing.

740
00:44:53,290 --> 00:44:56,330
You know, I had to do this this
research and and dig deep for

741
00:44:56,330 --> 00:44:57,850
that.
But I think, but it paints that

742
00:44:57,850 --> 00:45:03,290
picture that you're saying like
this is clearly like he is the

743
00:45:03,290 --> 00:45:06,810
last link between pioneer
Mormonism and modern you know,

744
00:45:06,810 --> 00:45:10,410
and and that he was a fish out
of water in in modern you know,

745
00:45:10,410 --> 00:45:12,410
times Mormonism.
You know.

746
00:45:12,410 --> 00:45:15,090
And I think the other thing that
this account brings out that

747
00:45:15,090 --> 00:45:19,290
that we need to pay attention to
is it So often we think that it

748
00:45:19,290 --> 00:45:24,510
was just the men who were being
chased down and persecuted by

749
00:45:24,510 --> 00:45:26,710
the authorities for living
plural marriage.

750
00:45:26,750 --> 00:45:29,310
And that's not the case.
Just just wait until we get to

751
00:45:29,310 --> 00:45:30,870
the 1940s.
You're not.

752
00:45:30,990 --> 00:45:36,270
You're not kidding dude there.
And and that's one of the things

753
00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:41,070
that has drove me most nuts in
being a fundamentalist and then

754
00:45:41,470 --> 00:45:46,440
even before that hearing about
how those early early brethren

755
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,440
or talked about and
fundamentalists in general is

756
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,480
that all the wives must have
just been beat down and you

757
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:56,480
know, must have just been been,
you know, kind of weak and

758
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,720
whatever.
And the opposite is true.

759
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,040
I challenge anybody to go talk
to a woman who's a

760
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:08,280
fundamentalist plural wife or
not and walk away thinking that

761
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:09,720
they're beat down.
Can you find some?

762
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:13,600
I'm sure you can, just like you
can find some women who are beat

763
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,680
down as monogamous, but I just
find it interesting.

764
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,440
Oh, I do too.
No, it's this man.

765
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,240
The both of these men are are
just incredibly amazing

766
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:25,320
individuals.
And the women too, you know,

767
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,920
they're I've read testimonies
from Guy Muster about his

768
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,840
mother, you know, which was
Joseph Buster's second wife that

769
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,960
just, like, make it.
I'm in awe when I hear those

770
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,840
things about a woman who lived
such a life.

771
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,440
Anyway, I can digress, and I
will digress.

772
00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:46,880
So where will we so?
Milton Muster was arrested in

773
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,760
April 1st, 1885.
While serving time in jail,

774
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,520
Milton Muster helped George
Reynolds, who was also in jail.

775
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,880
Now right, They developed.
They together developed what

776
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,600
would become the Church's
concordance of the Book of

777
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:09,960
Mormon.
And a lot of Milton Muster's

778
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,330
spare time was.
Earnestly seeking to reform

779
00:47:13,330 --> 00:47:15,970
certain inmates toward good
behavior because they're locked

780
00:47:15,970 --> 00:47:19,610
up in the state pen, right?
And those that flocked towards

781
00:47:19,610 --> 00:47:24,850
him became ironically called
Muster's Force thieves by the

782
00:47:24,850 --> 00:47:32,050
guards and the other inmates.
Which is, is the gang that I

783
00:47:32,050 --> 00:47:34,170
want to be a part of, right?
Right.

784
00:47:34,250 --> 00:47:37,130
No.
Once again, once again, just

785
00:47:37,130 --> 00:47:39,530
completely gangster.
Right, Yeah.

786
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,480
Prison gangs.
Mormon style?

787
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,600
Yep, that's it.
All right, so Milton Muster was

788
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:51,240
released from prison in October
of 1885, and he was subpoenaed 2

789
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:55,920
more times to testify, once in
March of 1886 and another in

790
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:01,000
June of 1887.
And it is reported that his

791
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,600
house was under surveillance
until 1890.

792
00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:08,160
So he was, he was just being
watched like a hawk.

793
00:48:09,930 --> 00:48:12,610
Yeah, I I think this needs bore
out too.

794
00:48:13,090 --> 00:48:18,250
I can't find any record of it,
but in those days, they were

795
00:48:18,250 --> 00:48:23,170
using a group called the
Pinkertons to do a lot, a lot of

796
00:48:23,170 --> 00:48:25,170
that work.
And the Pinkertons weren't

797
00:48:25,170 --> 00:48:29,290
necessarily too big on due
process, right.

798
00:48:29,490 --> 00:48:33,490
So there's some pretty unsavory
characters that the early

799
00:48:33,490 --> 00:48:37,850
members of the church are having
to deal with during these times

800
00:48:37,850 --> 00:48:41,960
when when the persecutions are
raging in Utah pretty heavily.

801
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,080
Now that stands to reason
absolutely.

802
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,920
In a letter from Joseph F Smith
to George Reynolds, presumably

803
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,560
while George Reynolds is still
in jail, written on March 1st

804
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,000
March 21st, 1886, President
Smith makes the mention of

805
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,160
Milton Muster saying.
Well, Brother Muster has my most

806
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,000
sincere regards and my most
earnest good wishes.

807
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,560
I admire his bravery, his
coolness, and his persistence.

808
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,400
God bless him.
I hope he will keep out of their

809
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,600
infernal clutches and live to
scorch them with their own

810
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:23,960
sulfur.
End Quote Blowing some fire.

811
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,080
Yeah, this was likely when
President Smith was serving a

812
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,640
mission and hiding in Hawaii,
right?

813
00:49:33,930 --> 00:49:37,850
All right, Towards the end of
his life, Milton Muster became

814
00:49:37,850 --> 00:49:43,090
Assistant Church Historian in
1902, until which, which calling

815
00:49:43,090 --> 00:49:50,290
he held until his death in 1909
as Church Historian Around 1908,

816
00:49:50,290 --> 00:49:55,170
according to his son Joseph
Musser, Brother Milton Musser

817
00:49:55,170 --> 00:49:58,060
approached Joseph.
Showing him Wilfred Woodruff's

818
00:49:58,060 --> 00:50:01,900
journal containing the 1880
revelation and the 1889

819
00:50:01,900 --> 00:50:05,180
revelation.
And he told Joseph, quote,

820
00:50:05,180 --> 00:50:09,180
someday it will be necessary for
you to use this information and

821
00:50:09,180 --> 00:50:13,780
he let him make a copy of those.
And so Joseph Musser was able to

822
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:17,340
furnish those to the to the
early Mormon fundamentalist

823
00:50:17,420 --> 00:50:19,980
movement as a result of his
father.

824
00:50:21,060 --> 00:50:24,380
Wow.
So his dad starts to get a sense

825
00:50:24,580 --> 00:50:29,500
of Son, you got some work to do
early on.

826
00:50:29,740 --> 00:50:32,420
Oh, oh, big time.
And there was a moment where

827
00:50:32,900 --> 00:50:35,300
when he learns that Joseph
Muster entered the principal in

828
00:50:35,300 --> 00:50:37,660
1901 where he's like, son, what
are you doing?

829
00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:41,820
You know?
But then Joseph was, you know,

830
00:50:41,820 --> 00:50:44,060
was able to very quickly
reassure his father that he's

831
00:50:44,060 --> 00:50:49,380
not done anything without the
express command of those that

832
00:50:49,380 --> 00:50:51,020
they both know in authority,
right.

833
00:50:51,620 --> 00:50:57,210
And he.
Promptly buys his son Joseph a

834
00:50:57,210 --> 00:51:03,450
gold watch, a pocket watch, and
engraves, something along the

835
00:51:03,450 --> 00:51:06,250
lines of you know, God bless you
for your you know, in your

836
00:51:06,250 --> 00:51:09,930
service of of God, right and and
entering into the principle or

837
00:51:09,930 --> 00:51:13,890
something like that, you know.
And so and he was overjoyed.

838
00:51:13,890 --> 00:51:17,290
He was overjoyed that his son
could enter into the principle

839
00:51:17,290 --> 00:51:21,640
of celestial plural marriage.
In a day when he thought that

840
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,480
that wasn't being done.
I guess you know and obviously

841
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,000
he became wiser you know and I.
But I think there definitely was

842
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,640
a premonition and there was
another moment too that Joseph

843
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,720
Muster copied out of Wolford
Woodruff journal which I'm

844
00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:40,000
including here because it's it's
pertinent so and and you know I

845
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,280
don't know how much Joseph was
allowed to copy out of it but

846
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,600
this this part was and I double
checked this.

847
00:51:45,060 --> 00:51:48,100
Right this this is printed in
Truth magazine, but I went and

848
00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:51,300
checked it with what I can find
online with with Wilford

849
00:51:51,300 --> 00:51:54,580
Woodruff Journal and it it
matches, it lines up then this

850
00:51:54,580 --> 00:51:59,220
is what Wilford Woodruff wrote
in October on October 14th 1882

851
00:51:59,580 --> 00:52:04,460
John Taylor said quote if we do
not embrace that principle soon

852
00:52:04,460 --> 00:52:06,220
the keys will be turned against
us.

853
00:52:06,220 --> 00:52:10,300
For if we do not keep the same
law our Heavenly Father has, we

854
00:52:10,300 --> 00:52:13,420
cannot go with Him.
The word of the Lord to us was

855
00:52:13,420 --> 00:52:16,420
that if we did not obey that
law, we could not go where our

856
00:52:16,420 --> 00:52:19,420
Heavenly Father was or where
where our Heavenly Father

857
00:52:19,420 --> 00:52:22,660
dwells.
A man obeying a lower law is not

858
00:52:22,660 --> 00:52:25,460
qualified to preside over those
who keep a higher law.

859
00:52:28,300 --> 00:52:31,980
Wilfred Woodruff said he was
glad the form of the 12 and 70s

860
00:52:31,980 --> 00:52:33,700
were now to be filled in that
the.

861
00:52:34,430 --> 00:52:37,350
The reason why the Church and
Kingdom of God could not

862
00:52:37,350 --> 00:52:40,830
progress if we did not receive
the patriarchal law of marriage

863
00:52:41,110 --> 00:52:44,430
is that it belongs to this
dispensation as well as the

864
00:52:44,430 --> 00:52:47,950
baptism for the dead, and any
law or ordinance that belongs to

865
00:52:47,950 --> 00:52:51,270
this dispensation must be
received by the members of the

866
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:55,470
Church or it cannot progress.
The leading men of Israel who

867
00:52:55,470 --> 00:52:58,910
are presiding over stakes will
have to obey the law of Abraham

868
00:52:59,230 --> 00:53:03,260
or they will have to stop.
Wow.

869
00:53:04,420 --> 00:53:06,900
You got one statement from John
Taylor and one statement from

870
00:53:06,900 --> 00:53:11,260
Wolf Woodruff from that meeting
on October 14th, 1882, which is

871
00:53:11,260 --> 00:53:15,020
right on the heels of that 1882
revelation, right where John

872
00:53:15,020 --> 00:53:17,660
Taylor called Heber J.
Grant and Seymour be young to to

873
00:53:17,660 --> 00:53:20,980
their callings, and on the
condition that Seymour be young

874
00:53:20,980 --> 00:53:23,820
would what enter into the
principle which he had not done

875
00:53:23,820 --> 00:53:27,340
yet, right?
And they started dropping stake

876
00:53:27,340 --> 00:53:30,470
presidents, dude.
And Wolford Woodruff says that

877
00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:31,830
they don't.
If they don't enter into the

878
00:53:31,830 --> 00:53:33,990
principal, they're gonna have to
stop presiding over their

879
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:37,670
stakes.
That's that was the the

880
00:53:37,670 --> 00:53:41,270
situation in in those days at
the time when the biggest legal

881
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:46,230
battles were being had too.
Anyways, you you get that.

882
00:53:46,230 --> 00:53:52,230
You get the idea that back then
the the those early brethren

883
00:53:53,070 --> 00:53:57,750
were doing what I think a lot of
us now as fundamentalists are

884
00:53:57,750 --> 00:54:03,070
doing, which is trying to get
this out there so that it's not

885
00:54:03,070 --> 00:54:06,790
such a shock to everybody's
system, right?

886
00:54:06,910 --> 00:54:12,550
This you, you get the idea that
that like they almost have this

887
00:54:12,550 --> 00:54:18,630
feeling if we get enough of us
living the fullness of of the

888
00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:22,790
gospel and and living that
principle, it's going to be hard

889
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:26,390
for him to put us all in jail
right and.

890
00:54:26,710 --> 00:54:28,510
That could have been some of the
thought behind it for sure.

891
00:54:28,810 --> 00:54:32,290
Trying to normalize this a
little bit right now, I'm not

892
00:54:32,290 --> 00:54:35,050
saying that that was purely
politically motivated either,

893
00:54:35,050 --> 00:54:36,930
right?
I I think there is a principle

894
00:54:36,930 --> 00:54:40,810
there to be had, like they said
that you can't preside over a

895
00:54:40,810 --> 00:54:44,410
man who is living a higher law
than yourself.

896
00:54:45,290 --> 00:54:49,930
And so I I think it was twofold.
Or maybe it was twofold.

897
00:54:49,930 --> 00:54:53,290
I can't say I I think that or
believe that I don't have any

898
00:54:53,290 --> 00:54:56,130
evidence of it, but it sure
seems to make sense.

899
00:54:56,570 --> 00:55:00,450
Yeah, I think it makes sense to.
And it's it brings a lot of

900
00:55:00,450 --> 00:55:03,770
things into question nowadays in
my opinion, opinion regarding,

901
00:55:04,370 --> 00:55:09,290
yeah, the operation of of
ordinations and callings and

902
00:55:09,970 --> 00:55:13,850
legality in church stuff.
But anyway, so now we we pretty

903
00:55:13,850 --> 00:55:16,970
much wrapped up the the life of
Milton muster.

904
00:55:17,530 --> 00:55:21,490
I got overlap there, but I got
one question on Milton.

905
00:55:21,930 --> 00:55:27,290
What happens during when when
Wilfred Woodruff rolls out his

906
00:55:28,220 --> 00:55:30,180
rolls out the the manifesto?
What?

907
00:55:30,180 --> 00:55:34,660
What's Milton's response?
Does Milton give up his wives or

908
00:55:34,660 --> 00:55:35,820
I mean what?
What does he do?

909
00:55:36,340 --> 00:55:38,260
I don't think.
I don't think there was any

910
00:55:38,260 --> 00:55:40,540
indication of him giving up any
any wives.

911
00:55:40,540 --> 00:55:44,340
In fact and I know from reading
minutes of the Quorum of the 12

912
00:55:44,340 --> 00:55:48,700
and 1st Presidency around that
time period is they they they

913
00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:50,380
didn't.
They never wanted to come to the

914
00:55:50,380 --> 00:55:53,460
men in the church giving up
their wives.

915
00:55:53,580 --> 00:55:57,770
You know and.
Like stop visibly cohabitating

916
00:55:57,770 --> 00:56:02,570
with them and if you get caught
other thing but it's you don't

917
00:56:02,570 --> 00:56:06,370
give them up.
You know and especially in early

918
00:56:06,370 --> 00:56:10,570
on there was talk even in the
form of the 12 about Joseph

919
00:56:10,570 --> 00:56:14,290
Smith coming back as the one
mighty and strong to set an

920
00:56:14,290 --> 00:56:17,210
order things back in order.
You know Moses Thatcher talked

921
00:56:17,210 --> 00:56:21,450
about that in 1890 and 1891.
You know and that was that was

922
00:56:21,450 --> 00:56:24,370
kind of on the that was that
idea right from section.

923
00:56:24,690 --> 00:56:27,580
What was it?
1:30 or we're out thereabouts

924
00:56:27,580 --> 00:56:32,420
where it says if Joseph lives to
be 85 years old, then he'll see

925
00:56:32,420 --> 00:56:34,060
the the face of the Savior,
right.

926
00:56:34,060 --> 00:56:41,020
And then the idea was, OK, he'll
be 85 and December 23rd of 1890.

927
00:56:41,020 --> 00:56:45,140
So after that point you know
they're going to have Joseph

928
00:56:45,140 --> 00:56:50,420
Smith back to you know deal with
this you know and and I think

929
00:56:50,540 --> 00:56:55,380
that speaks character to to
Milton that we didn't, that he

930
00:56:55,380 --> 00:56:58,980
didn't drop you don't leave any
of his wives because we know

931
00:56:58,980 --> 00:57:00,780
that that happened, right.
I mean.

932
00:57:01,180 --> 00:57:03,420
Some people absolutely did.
And that's sad because they

933
00:57:03,420 --> 00:57:06,100
obviously didn't understand.
They didn't understand.

934
00:57:06,780 --> 00:57:11,300
No, really, no.
And cuz look, this took me a lot

935
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:13,580
of years to get to this point as
a fundamentalist.

936
00:57:13,580 --> 00:57:18,740
Like when I when I first dive
into all this, the first thing

937
00:57:18,740 --> 00:57:22,300
I'm thinking is Wilford Woodruff
USOB, right?

938
00:57:22,300 --> 00:57:24,300
Like, how could you collapse
like this?

939
00:57:25,350 --> 00:57:30,230
Now, given time some historical
context, I could see that that

940
00:57:30,230 --> 00:57:34,270
sentiment was wrong because
Wilford was backed into a

941
00:57:34,270 --> 00:57:37,230
corner.
Now we can all sit here and say,

942
00:57:37,310 --> 00:57:40,390
well, I wouldn't have done that
or whatever, but we weren't

943
00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:42,630
there.
The other thing I've come to

944
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:47,830
realize is that Wilford words
that thing very carefully,

945
00:57:47,950 --> 00:57:48,870
right?
He doesn't.

946
00:57:49,350 --> 00:57:52,950
He doesn't say thus, you know,
verily thus say at the Lord He

947
00:57:52,950 --> 00:57:55,250
just says to whom it may
concern.

948
00:57:55,770 --> 00:57:59,370
It's my advice to you.
I mean, he seems to use every

949
00:57:59,370 --> 00:58:05,010
statement that he could to make
it sound right.

950
00:58:05,330 --> 00:58:08,330
Almost like he's like, yeah, I
probably wouldn't do that.

951
00:58:08,650 --> 00:58:12,690
Wing.
No, the statement itself, it's

952
00:58:12,690 --> 00:58:16,410
it's blatantly a lie, and I
don't know if it can you perjure

953
00:58:16,410 --> 00:58:20,450
someone else, or can you only
perjure yourself in testimony?

954
00:58:20,770 --> 00:58:22,850
But basically what happened was,
he said.

955
00:58:22,850 --> 00:58:25,910
To my knowledge.
No marriages and plural marriage

956
00:58:25,910 --> 00:58:27,150
have been done between these
dates.

957
00:58:27,150 --> 00:58:28,190
Right?
And he said that in the

958
00:58:28,190 --> 00:58:30,950
manifesto.
Well, Mathias Cowley took his

959
00:58:30,950 --> 00:58:35,110
second wife literally within
that span, you know.

960
00:58:35,390 --> 00:58:39,910
And so Mathias Cowley becomes
the first breaker of the

961
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:46,470
manifesto by default, based on a
false testimony that was made

962
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:49,110
under political expediency by
Wilfred Woodruff.

963
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,120
Yeah, he automatically became
the the first de facto breaker

964
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:55,520
of the manifesto, which is
ironic many years down the road.

965
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,600
Yeah, it is.
I I will say this too, is that

966
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,160
those who had eyes to see in
years to hear knew exactly what

967
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,400
that was because it was taken.
You know, when that first

968
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:13,480
manifesto came out, it was taken
so seriously that there had to

969
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,040
be a second manifesto where they
said, and this time we mean it,

970
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:19,310
right?
So.

971
00:59:20,950 --> 00:59:25,990
No, they didn't mean it anymore
than to try to get some time and

972
00:59:26,430 --> 00:59:28,790
my view when President Woodruff
says.

973
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:31,950
And it was either that testimony
he gave in Salt Lake or in

974
00:59:31,950 --> 00:59:34,830
Logan, UT like a year later
where he says the Lord showed me

975
00:59:34,830 --> 00:59:38,310
by vision what would happen if
you know, and I and I would have

976
00:59:38,310 --> 00:59:42,150
been willing to give up the
temples and see every man, all

977
00:59:42,150 --> 00:59:43,550
the leaders in Israel go to
prison.

978
00:59:43,550 --> 00:59:46,750
I I would have been willing to
do that and all this, you know?

979
00:59:48,220 --> 00:59:50,620
And I think that's true.
But you got to realize what is

980
00:59:50,620 --> 00:59:54,700
he saying?
Here is the Lord showed me what

981
00:59:54,700 --> 00:59:58,820
would happen if I didn't sign
that document, Okay.

982
00:59:58,940 --> 01:00:00,420
But did the Lord tell you to
sign it?

983
01:00:01,020 --> 01:00:05,140
Right.
And so he made a choice between

984
01:00:05,140 --> 01:00:08,460
seeing what would happen and
seeing what's happening now.

985
01:00:08,460 --> 01:00:12,580
And I think the idea was to buy
more time because but when you

986
01:00:12,620 --> 01:00:15,300
when you compare apples to
oranges or apples to apples or

987
01:00:15,300 --> 01:00:17,460
whatever.
The state of Mormon

988
01:00:17,460 --> 01:00:22,220
fundamentalism today is much
more similar to the what the

989
01:00:22,220 --> 01:00:25,580
Lord showed him would happen,
right, if they had not.

990
01:00:25,980 --> 01:00:28,220
And to me, that's actually a
testimony like the Lord's

991
01:00:28,220 --> 01:00:31,540
showing him, look, this is
what's coming down the pipe, and

992
01:00:31,900 --> 01:00:34,540
this is the lot of our people or
your people.

993
01:00:34,860 --> 01:00:37,100
And this is the way it's going
to have to be.

994
01:00:37,100 --> 01:00:40,620
It's the nature of the beast.
And you know, I'll fight your

995
01:00:40,620 --> 01:00:43,620
battles for you, but this is
this is going to happen.

996
01:00:43,780 --> 01:00:46,300
And to me, it's what?
Why would you expect the Lord to

997
01:00:46,300 --> 01:00:51,420
just deliver Zion from the
government when less than 3% of

998
01:00:51,420 --> 01:00:55,420
the men were living the law and
people were cowards?

999
01:00:55,420 --> 01:00:59,060
It was a it was a new generation
after Brigham Young that they

1000
01:00:59,060 --> 01:01:01,860
didn't they weren't made of the
same stuff that the early Saints

1001
01:01:01,860 --> 01:01:04,020
were made of.
And so this was the Lord's

1002
01:01:04,620 --> 01:01:07,500
furnace of affliction, and and
and trial by fire moment where

1003
01:01:07,500 --> 01:01:09,420
he was going to see what they
would do.

1004
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,080
Well, and and I think I think
you make an excellent point

1005
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:16,200
there and that's something else
I came to, to an understanding

1006
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:25,520
of was that, you know, it wasn't
like you had your rank and file

1007
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:30,080
membership lining up to live
that higher principal, right.

1008
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,920
Most of them didn't want to
distance themselves from it as

1009
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:37,880
much as they could.
And so when you know it may not

1010
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,780
have been Wilford alone.
That rejected that principle.

1011
01:01:42,380 --> 01:01:45,100
There were a lot within
Mormonism.

1012
01:01:45,100 --> 01:01:46,780
Period.
You're you're like I said, your

1013
01:01:46,780 --> 01:01:49,380
rank and file membership who
were ready to be done with it.

1014
01:01:49,460 --> 01:01:51,220
I I did.
They're dropping stake

1015
01:01:51,220 --> 01:01:54,220
presidents because they're not,
you know, because I'm not living

1016
01:01:54,220 --> 01:01:56,340
it at that point in history, You
know what I mean?

1017
01:01:56,780 --> 01:01:59,140
Like, yeah, it stands the
reason.

1018
01:01:59,620 --> 01:02:05,700
And so being deprived of temples
and and being persecuted and and

1019
01:02:05,700 --> 01:02:11,060
driven, you know that's that was
I don't think that was the Lord

1020
01:02:11,060 --> 01:02:13,780
saying, yes, we need to avoid
this at all costs.

1021
01:02:14,100 --> 01:02:18,700
I think that was a choice made
and I wouldn't say it's, I don't

1022
01:02:18,700 --> 01:02:22,140
think it was the right one but I
think it was a I can't blame him

1023
01:02:22,140 --> 01:02:24,100
either.
You know I think it was

1024
01:02:24,140 --> 01:02:26,980
acceptable.
I think it was somewhat

1025
01:02:26,980 --> 01:02:30,780
acceptable but in the you know
and the Lord had provisions for

1026
01:02:31,060 --> 01:02:35,100
making sure things would stay
the same in certain areas.

1027
01:02:35,740 --> 01:02:39,230
Absolutely.
Anyway, so we've we've covered

1028
01:02:39,230 --> 01:02:44,710
Brother Milton Muster, and now
we can get to the life of Joseph

1029
01:02:44,830 --> 01:02:50,550
W Muster O.
K So Joseph Muster was born

1030
01:02:52,030 --> 01:02:55,150
March 8th, 1872, in Salt Lake
City.

1031
01:02:55,830 --> 01:02:58,310
He never attended high school or
university.

1032
01:02:59,460 --> 01:03:02,500
He relates that he got his first
job at the age of 10, herding

1033
01:03:02,500 --> 01:03:05,620
cows in the summer.
At age 14 he he learned some

1034
01:03:05,620 --> 01:03:08,340
carpentry and helped his dad
build some houses.

1035
01:03:08,940 --> 01:03:11,580
Then he went on to plumbing
until the plumbers went on

1036
01:03:11,580 --> 01:03:13,620
strike for better wages and he
was cut out.

1037
01:03:14,580 --> 01:03:18,540
And then he got a job at a
butcher shop until he applied to

1038
01:03:18,540 --> 01:03:21,100
be a court stenographer at age
19.

1039
01:03:21,540 --> 01:03:26,200
So first thing that jumps out to
me is you're going from all you

1040
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:29,560
know, butcher and Carpenter and
plumber, and you've got no high

1041
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,120
school education and you're
going to go be a court

1042
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,960
stenographer.
You know, I I think it's

1043
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,000
probably one of the reasons I
pine for those old days as well

1044
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:45,560
is that you just had so much
less government involvement that

1045
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,960
you could do those things right.
You could.

1046
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,320
You could you?
Could you?

1047
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:55,390
There wasn't a gatekeeper.
Well, there was no, there was no

1048
01:03:55,390 --> 01:03:57,950
true officers making sure he's
going to high school in Salt

1049
01:03:57,950 --> 01:04:00,470
Lake, you know, And there was
one right in Salt Lake City.

1050
01:04:00,470 --> 01:04:02,710
It's not like he was being
raised out in Beaver, UT.

1051
01:04:03,230 --> 01:04:07,950
Right.
Yeah, you know, and but and this

1052
01:04:07,950 --> 01:04:11,150
is funny to me, so.
So he gets the job right or I

1053
01:04:11,150 --> 01:04:14,710
guess he's kind of he's they
they put, they try him out as a

1054
01:04:14,710 --> 01:04:20,630
court stenographer and he goes
his hands in his first recording

1055
01:04:21,150 --> 01:04:28,340
and the judge just laughs in his
face and like like what is this?

1056
01:04:28,540 --> 01:04:31,380
And apparently it was so
embarrassing.

1057
01:04:31,900 --> 01:04:34,980
You know the guys doesn't know
how to hardly write, you know,

1058
01:04:34,980 --> 01:04:38,660
or whatever, I guess.
And and this is so interesting

1059
01:04:38,660 --> 01:04:40,860
because I had no idea.
You know, this is we're talking

1060
01:04:40,860 --> 01:04:44,700
Joseph Musser, who is the most
prolific writer of Mormon

1061
01:04:44,700 --> 01:04:48,260
fundamentalism ever.
Yeah.

1062
01:04:48,860 --> 01:04:51,780
You know.
And his first job writing he

1063
01:04:51,780 --> 01:04:55,570
gets laughed at and thrown out
of the the core basically you

1064
01:04:55,570 --> 01:05:02,650
know and but he he he he became
very dedicated after that to to

1065
01:05:02,650 --> 01:05:05,530
learning that that trait that
job and he said you know

1066
01:05:05,530 --> 01:05:09,250
self-taught and so he the the
literary prowess that he

1067
01:05:09,250 --> 01:05:13,290
developed he develops later in
his life and by by his own

1068
01:05:13,290 --> 01:05:15,210
persistence.
Which is impressive.

1069
01:05:15,770 --> 01:05:18,670
It is impressive.
He married his first wife, Rose

1070
01:05:18,790 --> 01:05:23,110
in the Logan Temple in 1892 and
was ordained the 70 of June,

1071
01:05:23,430 --> 01:05:28,830
June, June 29th that year.
On July 17th, 1892, he was

1072
01:05:28,830 --> 01:05:32,230
admitted to be a member of his
father's prayer circle that was

1073
01:05:32,230 --> 01:05:34,190
held in the Church Historian's
office.

1074
01:05:35,150 --> 01:05:39,550
So for those who don't know what
that is, back in those days, you

1075
01:05:39,550 --> 01:05:43,310
could do true order of prayer
outside the temple in dedicated

1076
01:05:43,310 --> 01:05:47,920
spaces, whether it was in a
stake, stake center or church

1077
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,520
meeting house or or apparently
the church historian's office

1078
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:54,600
building, whatever, and even in
your own home.

1079
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:57,400
I was going to say there was
there was a time where they were

1080
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:01,680
saying have an alter in your own
home somewhere, You know, that's

1081
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:05,440
a dedicated space for that.
So yeah, he gets married and

1082
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:07,200
gets his endowments right.
And as soon as he gets his

1083
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,520
endowments, his father brings
him into the prayer circle.

1084
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:11,600
Quorum.
You know that that they've been

1085
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:16,620
having at the Church Historian's
office in 1895, which also I

1086
01:06:16,620 --> 01:06:21,260
would say that also puts him
into an area of Mormonism that

1087
01:06:21,260 --> 01:06:25,340
is so unfamiliar to people later
down the road because it's in

1088
01:06:25,340 --> 01:06:28,020
his lifetime that things like
that begin to be discontinued.

1089
01:06:28,380 --> 01:06:36,780
Yep, Yep, he's he has a first
hand witness to you.

1090
01:06:36,780 --> 01:06:39,220
You put it right.
He's the he's a link between

1091
01:06:39,220 --> 01:06:43,060
pioneer Mormonism and the what
would become.

1092
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:48,440
The modern day church right And
and I'm not trying to beg on

1093
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:51,200
anybody's belief in the church.
If you're happy in the LDS

1094
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,560
church, I'm I'm not trying to
beg on it.

1095
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:58,640
But we also can't deny that
can't get enough of the Mormon

1096
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:02,000
Renegade podcast.
Well, good news we're on Patreon

1097
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:04,200
and there's three packages that
you can choose from.

1098
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,880
The first one, the Slightly
Rowdy package, allows you to

1099
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:10,920
hear the podcast without all
those pesky commercials getting

1100
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,130
in the way.
For those who want a slightly

1101
01:07:13,130 --> 01:07:16,570
more indepth experience, there's
the Stirring It Up package where

1102
01:07:16,570 --> 01:07:20,370
you can hear adfree audio,
adfree video and transcripts.

1103
01:07:20,890 --> 01:07:24,250
Finally, for those who want to
go full Renegade, that package

1104
01:07:24,250 --> 01:07:26,930
is available to where you can
get everything in the previous

1105
01:07:26,930 --> 01:07:31,010
two packages, plus an extra show
where myself and Ben Winfield

1106
01:07:31,250 --> 01:07:34,130
break down the news of the day
from a very Mormon point of

1107
01:07:34,130 --> 01:07:36,170
view.
You will also get exclusive

1108
01:07:36,170 --> 01:07:39,670
access to Renegade chat.
And on there, you'll be able to

1109
01:07:39,670 --> 01:07:42,430
talk to others about the show or
whatever topics are on your

1110
01:07:42,430 --> 01:07:45,310
mind.
Go to Patreon today and get your

1111
01:07:45,310 --> 01:07:50,350
exclusive content that there
were some things that happened

1112
01:07:50,350 --> 01:07:54,670
in that time that definitely
watered down the gospel a little

1113
01:07:54,670 --> 01:07:57,270
bit.
Well, I would say they watered

1114
01:07:57,270 --> 01:08:00,830
down our the things that were
considered to be our privileges.

1115
01:08:01,190 --> 01:08:03,590
And you can make the argument
that would maybe we weren't

1116
01:08:03,590 --> 01:08:05,070
living up to our privileges, but
what?

1117
01:08:05,150 --> 01:08:07,430
What about those who do want to
live up to their birthright and

1118
01:08:07,430 --> 01:08:10,540
the privileges that we're
promised for our ancestors?

1119
01:08:10,540 --> 01:08:14,780
And I'm I for one?
You know, I'm sick of living

1120
01:08:14,780 --> 01:08:16,300
beneath my privileges in the
priesthood.

1121
01:08:16,939 --> 01:08:18,620
That's how I feel.
About it, Yeah.

1122
01:08:19,220 --> 01:08:24,700
Anyways, I digress.
So on April of 1895, he's called

1123
01:08:24,700 --> 01:08:27,060
on a mission by President
Woodruff to the Southern States

1124
01:08:27,060 --> 01:08:31,300
Mission and was set apart by
Brigham Young Junior, Hebrew J.

1125
01:08:31,300 --> 01:08:34,660
Grant and John W Taylor.
And Brigham Young Junior was

1126
01:08:34,660 --> 01:08:41,410
mouth in that blessing.
So near as I can tell, one of

1127
01:08:41,410 --> 01:08:45,649
his mission presidents was none
other than the famous Jay Golden

1128
01:08:45,649 --> 01:08:48,290
Kimball.
It is nuts to see all these

1129
01:08:48,290 --> 01:08:51,529
connections, right?
I mean, holy cow.

1130
01:08:52,130 --> 01:08:55,529
So Jay Jay Golden Kimball, son
of Heber C Kimball, served a

1131
01:08:55,529 --> 01:08:59,130
mission as a missionary in the
Southern states in the 1880s.

1132
01:08:59,130 --> 01:09:02,050
And then he got called as a
mission president of that

1133
01:09:02,050 --> 01:09:09,020
mission in the 1890s.
And later, many years later, Jay

1134
01:09:09,020 --> 01:09:12,779
Golden, son Max would marry
Joseph Musser's daughter

1135
01:09:12,779 --> 01:09:19,540
Josephine and I will go over
this later.

1136
01:09:19,540 --> 01:09:22,819
But years later, when when
Joseph Musser's second wife

1137
01:09:22,819 --> 01:09:26,220
died, Jay Golden Kimball was one
of the principal speakers at her

1138
01:09:26,220 --> 01:09:28,020
funeral.
And see now.

1139
01:09:28,020 --> 01:09:30,340
Now we get into asking
questions.

1140
01:09:30,779 --> 01:09:32,580
Sure.
You got any questions?

1141
01:09:33,660 --> 01:09:37,660
Now we get into this this part
where look.

1142
01:09:38,330 --> 01:09:44,890
We're in a time now where church
power has be really begun to be

1143
01:09:47,050 --> 01:09:51,930
consolidated and flexed.
Right before with �� in in.

1144
01:09:52,170 --> 01:09:55,770
In those pioneer days, it was
kind of fractured, right?

1145
01:09:55,770 --> 01:09:59,530
Communication was harder to come
by and so things felt maybe a

1146
01:09:59,530 --> 01:10:05,090
little more fractured or
disjointed, but the fact that

1147
01:10:05,330 --> 01:10:07,570
Jay Golden Kimball is showing
up.

1148
01:10:08,610 --> 01:10:14,050
To Joseph Musser's second wife's
funeral.

1149
01:10:14,490 --> 01:10:18,850
How much did the church know and
how much did they approve of?

1150
01:10:19,890 --> 01:10:23,290
I have, I have, I have what Jay
Golden said at that funeral.

1151
01:10:24,010 --> 01:10:26,490
Oh, go into it.
Please go into it a little bit.

1152
01:10:26,770 --> 01:10:28,370
We will, we will.
We'll get there.

1153
01:10:29,530 --> 01:10:31,010
It's not too far down the road,
I don't think.

1154
01:10:31,130 --> 01:10:31,850
Maybe.
Anyways.

1155
01:10:31,930 --> 01:10:33,530
We'll see.
We're going to get to that

1156
01:10:33,810 --> 01:10:41,190
anyways, Where were we after
returning from serving his

1157
01:10:41,190 --> 01:10:44,350
mission without purse or script?
I would add in those days

1158
01:10:44,790 --> 01:10:50,910
several interesting things
happen sometime in 1899 and and

1159
01:10:50,910 --> 01:10:54,870
when was he?
So he returns in 1897 from, you

1160
01:10:54,870 --> 01:10:57,550
know, 2-2 year mission from
18951897.

1161
01:10:57,550 --> 01:10:59,910
Somewhere in there, after
returning from his serving his

1162
01:10:59,910 --> 01:11:05,070
mission sometime in 1899, Muster
recalls that the patriarch of

1163
01:11:05,070 --> 01:11:08,330
the Church, John Smith, that's
brother to President Joseph F

1164
01:11:08,330 --> 01:11:09,090
Smith.
Right?

1165
01:11:09,450 --> 01:11:13,650
This is so interesting.
John Smith said to him, It is

1166
01:11:13,650 --> 01:11:18,330
thy duty to sit in council with
my brethren and preside among

1167
01:11:18,330 --> 01:11:20,330
them.
You were chosen at birth to to

1168
01:11:20,330 --> 01:11:23,250
labor in the ministry, and he
doesn't.

1169
01:11:23,250 --> 01:11:26,690
He doesn't say you were chosen
to preside amongst thy brethren.

1170
01:11:26,730 --> 01:11:29,290
He says you were chosen to
preside amongst my brethren,

1171
01:11:31,810 --> 01:11:37,890
which I tied to an anecdote that
Joseph Muster shares that his

1172
01:11:37,890 --> 01:11:42,530
mother received.
Mary Elizabeth White received a

1173
01:11:42,530 --> 01:11:45,930
patriarchal blessing that said
that one of her her sons would

1174
01:11:45,930 --> 01:11:52,130
be an apostle.
And unfortunately I don't have

1175
01:11:52,130 --> 01:11:54,170
that blessing.
I wish I did is that'd be

1176
01:11:54,170 --> 01:11:57,010
fantastic to read.
But so yeah, his Mary Elizabeth

1177
01:11:57,010 --> 01:12:00,130
White received that blessing
that one of her sons would be an

1178
01:12:00,130 --> 01:12:02,850
apostle.
Joseph Musser fits that bill.

1179
01:12:02,970 --> 01:12:05,370
As far as I know, no one else
was ever ordained from his

1180
01:12:05,370 --> 01:12:08,270
family.
But the the fact that the

1181
01:12:08,270 --> 01:12:11,350
patriarch to the church said
that is so, you know, and you

1182
01:12:11,350 --> 01:12:13,190
can dispute that, I guess, if
you wanted to.

1183
01:12:13,190 --> 01:12:16,270
But like I I see no reason for
him to lie that that happened,

1184
01:12:16,750 --> 01:12:22,030
especially considering his very,
very much verifiable connections

1185
01:12:22,510 --> 01:12:24,590
to the Brethren at this point in
his life.

1186
01:12:24,790 --> 01:12:29,670
Right.
And lately, in November, in

1187
01:12:29,670 --> 01:12:34,630
fact, on Thanksgiving morning
1899 Joseph Muster was invited

1188
01:12:35,850 --> 01:12:38,170
with his wife to the Salt Lake
Temple to receive their second

1189
01:12:38,170 --> 01:12:41,690
anointing at the and he's at
He's age 27, and it was

1190
01:12:41,690 --> 01:12:45,650
administered by Lorenzo Snow,
which.

1191
01:12:45,970 --> 01:12:48,730
Blows another idea out of the
water.

1192
01:12:49,450 --> 01:12:52,970
As as I've heard certain church
historians talk about the 2nd

1193
01:12:52,970 --> 01:12:56,410
Anointing, they always often
said, well it was for older guys

1194
01:12:56,850 --> 01:13:02,130
or guys who were you know higher
up in the in the chain of

1195
01:13:02,130 --> 01:13:04,970
command and hear that blows it
completely out of the water.

1196
01:13:05,430 --> 01:13:11,790
So it's it's so interesting and
you know none of the men that

1197
01:13:11,790 --> 01:13:14,750
Joseph Smith ordained or
anointed kings and priests were

1198
01:13:14,750 --> 01:13:17,270
old men actually maybe not none
of them but the majority of them

1199
01:13:17,950 --> 01:13:22,750
lived a long time afterwards.
So yeah they they weren't.

1200
01:13:24,270 --> 01:13:26,670
It's not you don't have to be
able to get it is what I'm

1201
01:13:26,670 --> 01:13:28,670
getting at by any stretch of the
means.

1202
01:13:30,710 --> 01:13:34,270
So he writes in his journal.
That day we literally spent a

1203
01:13:34,270 --> 01:13:38,310
few hours, as in heaven, mid the
glorious calm and quiet of our

1204
01:13:38,310 --> 01:13:40,870
holy surroundings.
We were near the Lord and oh how

1205
01:13:40,870 --> 01:13:44,630
happy I was only 27 years of age
and wondered why so young a

1206
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:48,630
person should be so favored, for
we were being sealed with the

1207
01:13:48,630 --> 01:13:55,430
Holy Spirit of promise and so
that's a direct identification

1208
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:57,640
with the term Holy Spirit of
Promise.

1209
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:01,840
With the 2nd anointing in in
nomenclature of that era is

1210
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:03,840
that's that those were viewed to
be synonymous.

1211
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:07,720
That second the Holy Spirit of
promise as mentioned in section

1212
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:11,840
132 and other places, is
synonymous with the the second

1213
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:16,400
ceiling or the 2nd anointing.
You know ordinance where all

1214
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:19,920
your other ordinances are sealed
upon you and confirmed, right?

1215
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:21,440
You.
It's been taught by some

1216
01:14:21,440 --> 01:14:24,320
apostles even as late as as
Bruce Armaconkey and Joseph

1217
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:26,600
Fielding Smith in the church
that you haven't even got a life

1218
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:31,880
until you've had your second
anointing because everything,

1219
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:33,680
everything else is promissory,
promissory.

1220
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:38,000
You know it's this on condition
of your faithfulness, right?

1221
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:41,040
And when I was endowed in the
church, we were told, and I

1222
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:43,760
don't know if all you know how
other iterations in time have

1223
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,240
been have been with, with this
in mind.

1224
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:47,560
But it says that you know you
will.

1225
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:49,820
You are.
If you were faithful, you'll be

1226
01:14:49,820 --> 01:14:52,980
called up in ordain or anointed
a king and a priest or queen and

1227
01:14:52,980 --> 01:14:55,020
a priestess.
But now you are only anointed to

1228
01:14:55,020 --> 01:14:59,620
become such, right?
Anyways, I I digress.

1229
01:14:59,620 --> 01:15:04,340
So dude, this is where it get
this is, this gets nuts.

1230
01:15:04,380 --> 01:15:06,380
And it's it's funny nuts too.
But it's.

1231
01:15:07,260 --> 01:15:10,940
So this was Thanksgiving Day in
November 1899, right?

1232
01:15:11,540 --> 01:15:13,860
In December.
Not even.

1233
01:15:13,860 --> 01:15:16,460
Like, not even a full month.
Like, not even before the end of

1234
01:15:16,460 --> 01:15:19,710
the year.
Joseph Muster gets a letter

1235
01:15:20,470 --> 01:15:25,470
delivered by a messenger from
Lorenzo Snow telling him that he

1236
01:15:25,470 --> 01:15:28,150
had been selected to enter
plural marriage and keep the

1237
01:15:28,150 --> 01:15:34,030
principal alive.
From Lorenzo Snow Yeah, so now

1238
01:15:34,030 --> 01:15:39,270
we are well past this idea of
and what year was that?

1239
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:42,790
It was December of ninety
9/18/99.

1240
01:15:43,350 --> 01:15:47,110
We're we're a full decade now.
Almost a full decade now.

1241
01:15:48,090 --> 01:15:51,970
Past the the first manifesto,
right?

1242
01:15:52,650 --> 01:15:57,290
We now have a direct it.
Is this documented?

1243
01:15:57,610 --> 01:15:59,530
Can we find documents on this
anywhere?

1244
01:16:00,130 --> 01:16:02,330
Not that I know of.
This is just his testimony and

1245
01:16:02,330 --> 01:16:05,570
recalling, you know, writing
them down in his journal kind of

1246
01:16:05,570 --> 01:16:08,170
a thing.
But that's that's it.

1247
01:16:11,610 --> 01:16:15,850
There's nothing in in Muster's
character that I think leads us

1248
01:16:15,850 --> 01:16:19,500
to.
Question who he was right his

1249
01:16:20,060 --> 01:16:24,100
The knowledge he has in his life
shows me that he's the real deal

1250
01:16:24,100 --> 01:16:26,260
and he's not making up claims.
Right.

1251
01:16:26,660 --> 01:16:32,460
And so now we have a direct link
between post manifesto, church,

1252
01:16:32,620 --> 01:16:37,660
First Presidency, telling people
on the DL I'm calling you to

1253
01:16:37,660 --> 01:16:40,220
live plural marriage to keep it
alive.

1254
01:16:40,660 --> 01:16:42,980
Yep.
And he writes in his journal and

1255
01:16:42,980 --> 01:16:46,740
he says God's prophet Lorenzo
Snow told me to accept the law

1256
01:16:46,740 --> 01:16:49,540
and keep it alive.
His subordinates said if I did

1257
01:16:49,540 --> 01:16:51,380
so, they would cut me off the
church.

1258
01:16:51,660 --> 01:16:53,860
I cannot argue with them and
divulge the source of my

1259
01:16:53,860 --> 01:16:56,300
authority.
There was a time when every man

1260
01:16:56,300 --> 01:16:59,220
was honor bound to carry his own
burdens, and yet live every law

1261
01:16:59,220 --> 01:17:03,340
of the gospel and.
And now we we get in some

1262
01:17:03,340 --> 01:17:08,660
interesting similacudes back to
Adam, right where where Adam's

1263
01:17:08,660 --> 01:17:15,470
given the choice, you know.
You'll be cast out, but if you

1264
01:17:15,470 --> 01:17:20,270
want to have the austerity, do
you want to be exalted?

1265
01:17:20,310 --> 01:17:21,590
You're going to have to get cast
out.

1266
01:17:21,830 --> 01:17:23,390
That's.
Interesting, right?

1267
01:17:23,670 --> 01:17:27,830
But but it's a very, it's a very
similar choice those days in the

1268
01:17:27,830 --> 01:17:33,990
church, right?
Because, well, so so this is my

1269
01:17:33,990 --> 01:17:37,270
theory regarding this.
You go first.

1270
01:17:37,710 --> 01:17:41,340
One second here.
This is where I'm probably going

1271
01:17:41,340 --> 01:17:47,820
to get some hate.
So I think at this point if, if,

1272
01:17:48,340 --> 01:17:54,140
if muster understands, yes,
President Snow called me to

1273
01:17:54,140 --> 01:17:58,180
this.
And yes, I could still be

1274
01:17:58,180 --> 01:18:01,340
excommunicated by his
subordinates.

1275
01:18:02,380 --> 01:18:05,060
Who's holding the power in the
church?

1276
01:18:05,380 --> 01:18:08,260
Who's really pulling the strings
these days?

1277
01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:12,720
I I think this is an honest
question to ask and and I think

1278
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:15,720
it's a question that maybe
deserves a little bit of looking

1279
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:19,960
at even today.
I can't disagree with you there.

1280
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:22,600
No.
I think this was the power move

1281
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:24,960
decided and I don't know if it
was.

1282
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:27,200
I don't know if this was ever
discussed officially in

1283
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:28,560
priesthood quorums in the
church.

1284
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:31,640
But I think this is what
basically the men who are aware

1285
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:35,560
of John Taylor's Commission.
This is what they this is what

1286
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:39,630
they if John Taylor didn't
specifically Commission this

1287
01:18:39,950 --> 01:18:43,310
approach, this was the way that
they decided to approach it was

1288
01:18:43,870 --> 01:18:45,790
OK.
If the people are going to give

1289
01:18:45,790 --> 01:18:50,750
this up, and we have to also
allow them to be scapegoats and

1290
01:18:50,750 --> 01:18:54,350
throw them to the wolves, we
we're going to give them their

1291
01:18:54,350 --> 01:18:58,110
second anointings so that all
their blessings are sealed upon

1292
01:18:58,110 --> 01:19:00,630
them no matter what they do.
So they can be cut off from the

1293
01:19:00,630 --> 01:19:02,590
church.
Because the idea was it was an

1294
01:19:02,590 --> 01:19:06,650
unconditional ceiling.
Unless you commit murder wherein

1295
01:19:06,650 --> 01:19:09,810
or or consent onto murder where
where you shed into some blood,

1296
01:19:10,130 --> 01:19:11,690
right.
And then deny the Holy Ghost.

1297
01:19:12,090 --> 01:19:15,530
And so the idea you you have
been sealed up to your

1298
01:19:15,530 --> 01:19:18,610
exaltation based on your
faithfulness when you receive

1299
01:19:18,610 --> 01:19:22,250
that ordinance and so and people
who are excommunicated after

1300
01:19:22,250 --> 01:19:26,010
they get that there, you know, I
can point to John W Taylor for

1301
01:19:26,010 --> 01:19:28,130
example.
He was cut off from the corner

1302
01:19:28,130 --> 01:19:30,890
of the 12 and excommunicated
from the church, and they

1303
01:19:31,330 --> 01:19:35,940
renewed His blessings right
after he he died in the church,

1304
01:19:36,700 --> 01:19:37,700
you know, and that's what they
did.

1305
01:19:38,900 --> 01:19:40,700
Right.
I would wonder.

1306
01:19:40,700 --> 01:19:42,860
In fact, I wonder if you could
go find out if that hadn't been

1307
01:19:42,860 --> 01:19:45,900
done with Joseph Musser in the
church by some of those guys.

1308
01:19:45,980 --> 01:19:48,180
I don't know.
Oh, you know, that's weird.

1309
01:19:48,260 --> 01:19:50,940
Deep.
If it's even still around right,

1310
01:19:51,340 --> 01:19:53,580
I don't know but that was that
was the way that that I think

1311
01:19:53,580 --> 01:19:57,260
that they said okay we can get
around the the lay membership of

1312
01:19:57,260 --> 01:19:59,700
the church or even authorities
in the church who aren't

1313
01:19:59,740 --> 01:20:02,810
sympathetic to to new.
Floral marriages.

1314
01:20:02,810 --> 01:20:05,250
This is the way that we win,
right?

1315
01:20:06,290 --> 01:20:09,050
But it's still.
It still makes me go.

1316
01:20:09,050 --> 01:20:11,170
Then who's holding the power,
right?

1317
01:20:11,170 --> 01:20:15,570
If it's not the man, who is it?
So he gets that letter in

1318
01:20:15,570 --> 01:20:19,930
December, right?
And he gets married in 1901.

1319
01:20:20,490 --> 01:20:25,970
And sometime between them, John
Henry Smith, who is the son of

1320
01:20:25,970 --> 01:20:30,240
George A Smith and which was a
cousin to the Prophet Joseph

1321
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:30,840
Smith.
Right.

1322
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:34,480
And John Henry Smith is father
to future president of the

1323
01:20:34,480 --> 01:20:36,320
church.
George Albert Smith.

1324
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:41,600
John Henry Smith approaches
Joseph Musser and says, you're

1325
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:43,600
taking too long to enter into
the principal.

1326
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:45,840
And if you don't enter into the
principal and you're going to

1327
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:48,280
lose every blessing that you've
ever had in the church.

1328
01:20:51,740 --> 01:20:54,420
AKA, you're on the clock, son.
Right.

1329
01:20:54,420 --> 01:20:55,980
And it's like how long has it
been?

1330
01:20:56,100 --> 01:20:58,100
Like, we don't, I don't know an
exact time frame, but it's

1331
01:20:58,100 --> 01:21:01,940
certainly less than a year.
You know that he's that and John

1332
01:21:01,940 --> 01:21:05,420
Henry Smith is sent, presumably.
Or is it?

1333
01:21:05,580 --> 01:21:08,380
Or at least he's in the know,
you know that what's happening?

1334
01:21:08,380 --> 01:21:11,420
And he, yeah, he's dude.
If you don't enter into this,

1335
01:21:12,660 --> 01:21:13,980
you're losing all your
blessings.

1336
01:21:13,980 --> 01:21:17,300
And so, yeah, there was a
condition on him that was placed

1337
01:21:17,300 --> 01:21:18,780
on him by his leaders.
I guess.

1338
01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:21,440
Yeah.
In any case, he's.

1339
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:24,800
He promptly starts paying
attention to the daughter of the

1340
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:28,160
Bishop of his war Bishop William
Hill.

1341
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:32,720
And her name was Mary.
Once muster eventually expressed

1342
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:35,400
his intentions to, you know,
because he would just go over

1343
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:39,480
for dinner or whatever.
And imagine the imagine breaking

1344
01:21:39,480 --> 01:21:41,800
that, like that news to your
Bishop.

1345
01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:44,640
And like, yeah, I got my eye on
your daughter and I want to

1346
01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:47,320
marry her, you know.
Yeah.

1347
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:50,790
And you're a married man.
Yeah, yeah, I know.

1348
01:21:51,310 --> 01:21:52,630
I'm.
I'm guessing that made for an

1349
01:21:52,630 --> 01:21:54,470
awkward Temple recommend
interview.

1350
01:21:55,270 --> 01:21:58,910
Yeah it sure would be.
And I, you know, it says he he

1351
01:21:58,910 --> 01:22:02,510
relates to Bishop Hill was upset
and I don't know and you know,

1352
01:22:02,510 --> 01:22:05,230
is it understandably so or is it
just because of the manifesto or

1353
01:22:05,230 --> 01:22:07,550
what?
But he basically says, like,

1354
01:22:07,550 --> 01:22:10,870
look, I can't even do anything
about it under the conditions in

1355
01:22:10,870 --> 01:22:15,580
the church, right?
We can't actually hold on.

1356
01:22:15,660 --> 01:22:18,260
If I read further in my notes,
he says nothing could be done

1357
01:22:18,260 --> 01:22:20,740
about it after the manifesto,
otherwise he would see no

1358
01:22:20,740 --> 01:22:23,740
problem with it.
Apparently after the this

1359
01:22:23,740 --> 01:22:27,500
conversation William Hill left
the house for a while and

1360
01:22:27,860 --> 01:22:32,660
serendipitously encounters 2
apostles out on the streets of

1361
01:22:32,740 --> 01:22:35,060
Salt Lake walking walking the
street.

1362
01:22:35,060 --> 01:22:37,100
Do you want to take any?
Take a swing at who they were.

1363
01:22:38,340 --> 01:22:42,140
John W Taylor, No.
Good guess, though.

1364
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:46,200
It was John Henry Smith the one
who told him get a move on.

1365
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:53,560
And Matthias Cowley.
And so very convenient for

1366
01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:57,120
Brother Muster because obviously
John Henry Smith is there

1367
01:22:57,120 --> 01:22:58,760
rooting for Brother Muster.
Right.

1368
01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:03,080
This is Oh yes, Bishop Hill this
this thing can be taken care of.

1369
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:11,010
Well, you know, and and she is
promptly married to to Brother

1370
01:23:11,010 --> 01:23:14,610
Joseph Musser by Mathias Cowley.
Wow.

1371
01:23:15,050 --> 01:23:17,770
Yeah.
Was that done in the temple?

1372
01:23:17,770 --> 01:23:22,090
Or was that not that it matters
the the, the, the, the authority

1373
01:23:22,090 --> 01:23:25,210
carries, but I mean to my
knowledge it was not done in the

1374
01:23:25,210 --> 01:23:28,970
temple.
I keep getting pulled back and I

1375
01:23:28,970 --> 01:23:33,250
apologize for this.
I keep getting pulled back to

1376
01:23:33,250 --> 01:23:38,940
this idea of.
The Gaddy Antons are inside the

1377
01:23:38,940 --> 01:23:43,020
building, right, because you got
snow.

1378
01:23:43,020 --> 01:23:45,220
Who says I'm commissioning you
to this?

1379
01:23:45,620 --> 01:23:52,220
You have you have other apostles
who are like you got to get a

1380
01:23:52,220 --> 01:23:55,340
move on son.
You got to get another wife and

1381
01:23:55,340 --> 01:23:59,340
you got you know the and then
you have the other side.

1382
01:23:59,380 --> 01:24:04,060
It just I don't know why I keep
getting pulled back to to just

1383
01:24:04,060 --> 01:24:06,450
the factions there.
So it's hard and there

1384
01:24:06,450 --> 01:24:09,010
definitely were and it's and
there's flip floppies between

1385
01:24:09,010 --> 01:24:11,090
members from what I've seen
which is super unfortunate.

1386
01:24:11,090 --> 01:24:13,810
But one of my favorite things
about John Henry Smith who's

1387
01:24:14,010 --> 01:24:18,210
who's pushing this with Joseph
Muster right is that he on a

1388
01:24:18,210 --> 01:24:22,330
trip to Mexico in the 1890s he
brought John W Taylor and Hebrew

1389
01:24:22,330 --> 01:24:26,690
J Grant with him and he made he
you know and John Henry was

1390
01:24:26,690 --> 01:24:29,450
senior and he made Hebre J.
Grant perform.

1391
01:24:30,090 --> 01:24:32,530
Plural marriage is down there in
Mexico after the Manifesto.

1392
01:24:34,370 --> 01:24:37,160
Yeah.
You know, you're probably not

1393
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:40,880
old enough, but you ever watch
those, that episode of any of

1394
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:45,600
those, that sitcom Seinfeld?
Oh yeah, I've seen Seinfeld.

1395
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:52,000
OK, you remember how Jerry
Seinfeld says Newman Newman.

1396
01:24:52,560 --> 01:24:55,320
That's how I feel about Grant.
Every time I hear his name, I'm

1397
01:24:55,320 --> 01:25:00,690
just like Grant.
No, it's it's actually a real

1398
01:25:00,690 --> 01:25:04,090
shame what happened with
President Grant because he was

1399
01:25:04,090 --> 01:25:08,490
called by revelation and the
Lord had high hopes for him, I

1400
01:25:08,490 --> 01:25:11,610
think.
And but that's just the way it

1401
01:25:11,610 --> 01:25:13,490
is.
You know, we have our agency and

1402
01:25:13,490 --> 01:25:16,330
we can we can either magnify Our
Calling or not magnify it.

1403
01:25:16,330 --> 01:25:17,650
And that's a choice that's up to
us.

1404
01:25:18,010 --> 01:25:20,610
Yep.
So, so Muster takes another

1405
01:25:20,610 --> 01:25:21,530
wife.
Yep.

1406
01:25:23,210 --> 01:25:25,490
And it gets even better.
Gets even better.

1407
01:25:25,490 --> 01:25:27,370
OK, so we're getting sent to
some names that are going to

1408
01:25:27,490 --> 01:25:30,660
repeat throughout Okay.
So pay attention, listeners.

1409
01:25:31,820 --> 01:25:33,860
All right.
At this time, Joseph Muster

1410
01:25:33,860 --> 01:25:36,820
lived in Granite Stake in Salt
Lake City.

1411
01:25:37,260 --> 01:25:41,340
Granite Stakes president was
Frank Y Taylor, who was brother

1412
01:25:41,340 --> 01:25:45,460
to John W Taylor and therefore
son of President John Taylor,

1413
01:25:45,460 --> 01:25:46,300
right?
Right.

1414
01:25:47,540 --> 01:25:53,580
I have to note here that upon
further research, Frank Wyatt

1415
01:25:53,580 --> 01:25:58,270
Taylor is responsible for the
church program of Family Home

1416
01:25:58,270 --> 01:26:02,190
Evenings.
Frank Why Taylor is Frank why

1417
01:26:02,190 --> 01:26:08,150
Taylor invented and stamped and
systematized and basically made

1418
01:26:08,150 --> 01:26:10,550
the Church to what is called now
Family of the evenings.

1419
01:26:11,230 --> 01:26:13,990
Wow, that started.
That was a program started in

1420
01:26:13,990 --> 01:26:17,230
his stake and he is a post
manifesto polygamist.

1421
01:26:18,230 --> 01:26:22,830
Nice, nice, nice.
It's one of those spike in the

1422
01:26:22,830 --> 01:26:24,790
football moves right there for
Fundamental.

1423
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:28,560
And so you have an interesting
thing with the structure of the

1424
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,720
church that we're going to see
come into play here where

1425
01:26:32,440 --> 01:26:35,480
technically speaking members of
the Quorum of the 12 have

1426
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:39,320
nothing to, they have no
jurisdiction in stakes unless

1427
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:42,280
they're sent by the 1st
Presidency on a special

1428
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:45,800
assignment.
And this was a genius power move

1429
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:50,640
by Joseph F Smith I think to
stack Granite Stake with

1430
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:55,860
authorities that were they were
they were put under covenant the

1431
01:26:55,860 --> 01:26:58,940
same as Joseph Muster was
because Frank White Taylor was a

1432
01:26:58,940 --> 01:27:01,180
post manifesto polygamist and
was the state president.

1433
01:27:01,780 --> 01:27:06,140
And his second counselor was
John M Cannon, son of George Q

1434
01:27:06,140 --> 01:27:10,740
Cannon who was also a post
manifesto polygamist.

1435
01:27:11,220 --> 01:27:15,260
Right.
Frank White Taylor ended up in

1436
01:27:15,260 --> 01:27:19,540
possession of the original copy
of the 1886 revelation and

1437
01:27:19,540 --> 01:27:23,220
holding on to it until he turned
it into church archives, where

1438
01:27:23,220 --> 01:27:27,580
Joseph Fielding Smith got his
hands on it and reviewed it and

1439
01:27:27,580 --> 01:27:29,020
authenticated it.
Right.

1440
01:27:29,460 --> 01:27:31,820
Right.
And then they lied about it,

1441
01:27:31,860 --> 01:27:32,980
right?
And they said it wasn't in the

1442
01:27:32,980 --> 01:27:35,820
archives.
But Frank White Taylor was given

1443
01:27:35,820 --> 01:27:40,100
the the original copy with John
Taylor's handwriting, while John

1444
01:27:40,100 --> 01:27:44,100
W Taylor made several copies in
his own handwriting.

1445
01:27:44,100 --> 01:27:46,860
And those were the first ones
that were distributed, right?

1446
01:27:47,820 --> 01:27:49,740
So that's that.
I thought that was fun.

1447
01:27:51,220 --> 01:27:55,780
On September 20th, 1901,
President Frank White Taylor

1448
01:27:55,780 --> 01:27:58,780
prophesied to Joseph Musser that
he would be a leader in Israel.

1449
01:27:59,580 --> 01:28:03,620
In 1902, Joseph Musser was
attending a circle prayer for

1450
01:28:03,620 --> 01:28:08,620
him in the Salt Lake Temple
presided over by President

1451
01:28:08,620 --> 01:28:10,860
Anthony Shlund.
For those who don't know,

1452
01:28:10,980 --> 01:28:14,020
President Anthony Shlund was in
the First Presidency of the

1453
01:28:14,020 --> 01:28:16,900
Church.
So I want to know what is young

1454
01:28:16,900 --> 01:28:22,040
Joseph Musser, at the age of 30
years old, doing in a Circle

1455
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:24,600
Corps meeting with a member of
the First Presidency?

1456
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:28,000
Seems a little odd and out of
place, doesn't it?

1457
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:31,480
Doesn't it?
Yeah, at the meeting.

1458
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:36,960
Joseph Musser's there.
John M Cannon from his state

1459
01:28:36,960 --> 01:28:41,040
presidency is there.
George M Cannon and James Hendry

1460
01:28:41,590 --> 01:28:44,630
and others who have been
selected to keep alive the

1461
01:28:44,630 --> 01:28:47,750
principle of plural marriage saw
an interview with President Lund

1462
01:28:47,750 --> 01:28:50,630
for advice regarding
administering ordinances for

1463
01:28:50,630 --> 01:28:53,990
their children not recognized by
the church.

1464
01:28:54,470 --> 01:28:57,790
Because right now they're
raising families that are hush

1465
01:28:57,790 --> 01:29:00,430
hush and I can't take these.
I can't acknowledge these

1466
01:29:00,430 --> 01:29:03,910
families, the the, the children
of these, these women publicly

1467
01:29:03,910 --> 01:29:05,230
in church, right?
Can't do it.

1468
01:29:05,230 --> 01:29:06,950
So what do we do?
What do we do with their

1469
01:29:06,950 --> 01:29:08,670
ordinances?
What do we do when they when

1470
01:29:08,670 --> 01:29:13,920
they turn 8 right?
Right, so the Church.

1471
01:29:14,200 --> 01:29:17,040
So.
So at least certain leaders of

1472
01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:19,360
the church are making provisions
for that now.

1473
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:23,640
Well, from Joseph Musser's
writing, all of those men were

1474
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:28,440
in a forum meeting with Anthony
Schlund seeking advice on a post

1475
01:29:28,440 --> 01:29:32,920
manifesto situation.
And not only that they were just

1476
01:29:32,920 --> 01:29:35,040
so happening to be living in
that condition, but that they

1477
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:37,390
had that they had been selected.
These are men that have been

1478
01:29:37,390 --> 01:29:39,630
selected according to Joseph
Muster.

1479
01:29:39,790 --> 01:29:43,430
That's John M Cannon, George M
Cannon and James Hendry.

1480
01:29:43,430 --> 01:29:44,830
I don't know who James Hendry
is.

1481
01:29:44,830 --> 01:29:46,230
I kind of want to know who he is
now.

1482
01:29:46,230 --> 01:29:50,590
But but then and others were
commissioned and selected to

1483
01:29:50,590 --> 01:29:53,550
keep the plural marriage alive
and they're asking President

1484
01:29:53,550 --> 01:29:56,610
Lung for advice.
And he says, brethren, you hold

1485
01:29:56,610 --> 01:29:58,970
the priesthood and stand at the
head of your families.

1486
01:29:59,050 --> 01:30:01,730
As your children are born, you
should give them a father's

1487
01:30:01,730 --> 01:30:04,410
blessing and a name.
When they reach the proper age

1488
01:30:04,410 --> 01:30:07,770
for baptism, you should baptize
them and confirm the members of

1489
01:30:07,770 --> 01:30:10,450
the Church and confer the Holy
Ghost in the usual manner.

1490
01:30:10,850 --> 01:30:14,410
Be sure and keep the record and
when the Church will receive it

1491
01:30:14,410 --> 01:30:16,410
handed in.
Holy cow.

1492
01:30:17,690 --> 01:30:20,530
OK, now, now this begins to
change.

1493
01:30:21,490 --> 01:30:24,290
I think a lot of the perception,
right?

1494
01:30:24,290 --> 01:30:25,330
Is that.
Oh, sure.

1495
01:30:25,650 --> 01:30:28,290
There, there's a clean break, so
to speak, right?

1496
01:30:28,530 --> 01:30:32,770
Even if it's not 1890, it's 1904
with the 2nd Manifesto.

1497
01:30:33,890 --> 01:30:41,050
However, what we see now is that
we see almost a a program, if

1498
01:30:41,050 --> 01:30:45,490
you will, being established by
somebody in the First Presidency

1499
01:30:45,490 --> 01:30:49,490
of the LDS Church to say, look,
this is what you need to do,

1500
01:30:50,050 --> 01:30:52,130
right?
And I think it lends itself to

1501
01:30:52,130 --> 01:30:56,330
what you were saying.
I don't think anybody saw the

1502
01:30:56,330 --> 01:31:01,370
manifesto in those days lasting
terribly long, right?

1503
01:31:01,530 --> 01:31:04,570
I think they saw this idea of
coming back together at some

1504
01:31:04,570 --> 01:31:07,770
point to say, you know what,
give us your records.

1505
01:31:07,890 --> 01:31:10,650
They're good.
Let's get everything organized

1506
01:31:11,850 --> 01:31:16,490
and jeez, no.
And and I would like to say to

1507
01:31:16,490 --> 01:31:19,050
any fundamentalist listening,
keep your keep your damn

1508
01:31:19,050 --> 01:31:21,370
records.
Because if you're not, like the

1509
01:31:21,370 --> 01:31:26,000
scriptures tell you out of the
books that we have, you know,

1510
01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:28,680
you know what's recorded on
earth will be recorded in heaven

1511
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:31,960
and those things are joined with
the ceiling powers.

1512
01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:36,520
And so, like I, I have a lot of
anxiety over record keeping, you

1513
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:40,120
know, in my, in my own family
and and with other people who

1514
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:43,440
are doing the righteous thing
but are, you know, just be

1515
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:47,760
careful and you know.
And and maybe this is maybe this

1516
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:52,400
is where that that that I
certainly fell victim to.

1517
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:56,040
I shouldn't say victim but but
certainly felt like it was one

1518
01:31:56,040 --> 01:31:59,920
of those things that that was
commonly known when when they

1519
01:31:59,920 --> 01:32:02,640
said, oh plural marriage will
totally be lived again within

1520
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:04,440
the LDS church.
Right.

1521
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:09,360
Maybe it's this sort of thing
where that is given life, given

1522
01:32:09,360 --> 01:32:12,960
breath right is just keep your
records.

1523
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:15,840
It's cool.
We'll we'll be back in the in in

1524
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:20,040
the church in no time.
Yeah.

1525
01:32:21,070 --> 01:32:24,110
The sad thing is though, and I
had this as an anecdote, there's

1526
01:32:24,110 --> 01:32:27,070
a talk I have in my possession
from from Joseph Musser's son

1527
01:32:27,070 --> 01:32:31,750
Guy Musser that was given by him
in 1950.

1528
01:32:32,590 --> 01:32:36,750
I mean, he's relating the story,
by the way, in his talk that,

1529
01:32:36,750 --> 01:32:41,310
you know, with Anthony H Lund
there and he says that some,

1530
01:32:42,270 --> 01:32:46,470
some of these men's children at
that time are now dead and the

1531
01:32:46,470 --> 01:32:48,590
time still hasn't come when the
Church would have accepted their

1532
01:32:48,590 --> 01:32:55,110
records.
So these are these instructions

1533
01:32:55,110 --> 01:32:57,630
being given in 18 or 1902,
right.

1534
01:32:57,630 --> 01:33:00,710
And then by 1950, some of these
children are already dead.

1535
01:33:01,150 --> 01:33:07,430
You know it's, it's just.
It's yeah, because you can only

1536
01:33:07,430 --> 01:33:11,950
imagine that that that first
generation muster you know the

1537
01:33:11,950 --> 01:33:17,830
the first generation of of of
post manifesto polygamists guys

1538
01:33:17,830 --> 01:33:19,630
seeking to keep the fullness
alive.

1539
01:33:20,340 --> 01:33:23,740
You know, at least I would have
anyway.

1540
01:33:23,860 --> 01:33:25,820
But I'm not as good as any of
those guys.

1541
01:33:25,820 --> 01:33:29,500
But I can only imagine that that
I could just hear the

1542
01:33:29,500 --> 01:33:32,580
conversations at night between
him and their spouses.

1543
01:33:33,020 --> 01:33:35,260
This will pass.
This will pass.

1544
01:33:35,260 --> 01:33:38,820
At some point, they're going to
welcome, welcome us back in with

1545
01:33:38,820 --> 01:33:42,860
open arms and it never comes.
Sure.

1546
01:33:46,020 --> 01:33:49,060
Heartbreaking.
It's so heartbreaking because I

1547
01:33:49,060 --> 01:33:53,050
know for a fact later in his
life, Joseph Musser, he didn't

1548
01:33:53,050 --> 01:33:54,290
want to be at odds with the
church.

1549
01:33:54,490 --> 01:33:56,610
You know none of the
fundamentalist fundamental, you

1550
01:33:56,610 --> 01:33:59,170
know, quote UN quote,
Fundamentalists wanted to be at

1551
01:33:59,170 --> 01:34:02,290
odds with the church.
They just wanted the Kingdom of

1552
01:34:02,290 --> 01:34:04,370
God to roll forth.
And they knew that these

1553
01:34:04,370 --> 01:34:07,090
principles are what create a
society that God can live in.

1554
01:34:08,170 --> 01:34:12,810
You know, I'm I'm going to say
something else here and and I'm

1555
01:34:12,810 --> 01:34:15,690
not going to speak for
everybody, but I think I think

1556
01:34:15,690 --> 01:34:19,170
maybe a a bulk of
fundamentalists certainly feel

1557
01:34:19,170 --> 01:34:24,300
this way.
Look, if if correct principles

1558
01:34:24,300 --> 01:34:29,700
had been instituted, you know
and and you know there was that,

1559
01:34:29,700 --> 01:34:33,980
that open hand of fellowship
while living the fullness of the

1560
01:34:33,980 --> 01:34:37,620
gospel, again, I think a lot of
fundamentalists would would

1561
01:34:37,620 --> 01:34:39,700
embrace that right.
Why wouldn't we?

1562
01:34:42,620 --> 01:34:44,260
I don't know.
I don't know.

1563
01:34:44,260 --> 01:34:46,340
I I it.
It's sad in a way because I, I,

1564
01:34:46,340 --> 01:34:49,900
I get, I got the feeling from
that last statement you read

1565
01:34:50,660 --> 01:34:55,060
that there there was probably a
lot of people who waited a long

1566
01:34:55,060 --> 01:34:59,140
time for something they felt was
promised that never came.

1567
01:35:00,540 --> 01:35:03,300
And yeah, and those records are
now lost to generations, not how

1568
01:35:03,300 --> 01:35:07,180
far we're we are and well over
100 years past that point now.

1569
01:35:08,300 --> 01:35:09,660
Right.
Oh, yeah.

1570
01:35:10,020 --> 01:35:13,300
Yeah.
We're we're 120 a 121.

1571
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:17,000
So if you're waiting for that, I
wouldn't do that.

1572
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:22,680
So don't, don't, don't, don't
pin your hopes to that horse.

1573
01:35:23,120 --> 01:35:24,800
It's.
I don't think it's going to come

1574
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:26,800
in for a while.
No.

1575
01:35:27,040 --> 01:35:29,880
So around this time right so
Joseph Joseph Muster has just

1576
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:37,640
taken a second wife in a culture
that is abandoned New polygamy

1577
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:41,760
or or the continuation of
polygamy and new polygamists are

1578
01:35:42,410 --> 01:35:44,690
I I guess in some circles you're
probably going to be viewed as a

1579
01:35:44,690 --> 01:35:46,850
hero.
But in some circles you are an

1580
01:35:46,850 --> 01:35:49,930
apostate now and it's and it's
getting more entrenched that

1581
01:35:49,930 --> 01:35:53,690
you're that way.
Apparently some of Joseph

1582
01:35:53,690 --> 01:35:58,490
Musser's new inlaws felt that
way his his new wife's brothers

1583
01:35:59,530 --> 01:36:03,330
felt that this was not right and
one of her brothers threatened

1584
01:36:03,330 --> 01:36:06,970
to shoot Joseph Musser.
Yeah I want to kill.

1585
01:36:07,170 --> 01:36:10,090
I want to kill you.
And so, as a result, to save his

1586
01:36:10,090 --> 01:36:14,330
life, President Joseph F Smith F
Smith sends him out on a mission

1587
01:36:14,890 --> 01:36:16,490
to get him out and get out of
Dodge.

1588
01:36:19,170 --> 01:36:23,290
And so he he spent a few years
out in the UN to help facilitate

1589
01:36:24,090 --> 01:36:27,410
organization of new Church
branches and Indian Reservation

1590
01:36:27,410 --> 01:36:30,530
affairs as the Church was
settling new colonies in an

1591
01:36:30,530 --> 01:36:33,010
effort to move people out of the
cities and into areas where they

1592
01:36:33,010 --> 01:36:34,810
could, where there could be more
agriculture.

1593
01:36:35,210 --> 01:36:38,410
He was set apart by Joseph F
Smith for the mission on

1594
01:36:38,410 --> 01:36:43,450
February 2nd, 1902.
He returns to Salt Lake City in

1595
01:36:43,450 --> 01:36:47,810
1907 and was sustained as a
member of the Granite State High

1596
01:36:47,810 --> 01:36:53,210
Council on February 24th, so
February 24th, 1907.

1597
01:36:53,210 --> 01:36:55,970
He's back in Granite State with
John M Cannon and Frank.

1598
01:36:55,970 --> 01:36:58,490
Why Taylor?
Right, right.

1599
01:36:58,490 --> 01:36:59,770
And he's a member of the High
Council.

1600
01:37:02,170 --> 01:37:06,570
Two years later, 1909, Joseph
Musser married his third wife,

1601
01:37:06,610 --> 01:37:07,570
Ellis.
Shit.

1602
01:37:08,250 --> 01:37:11,330
Reportedly under the personal
direction of President Joseph F

1603
01:37:11,330 --> 01:37:13,850
Smith.
So Joseph F Smith told him to do

1604
01:37:13,850 --> 01:37:18,810
that and he says and he writes
or or it's recorded in Truth

1605
01:37:18,810 --> 01:37:21,770
Magazine, volume 20.
Later, under the direction of

1606
01:37:21,770 --> 01:37:25,530
President Joseph F Smith, this
man again responded to the Holy

1607
01:37:25,530 --> 01:37:28,610
commandment and had his third
wife, Ellis Ship sealed to him.

1608
01:37:28,930 --> 01:37:31,810
And when the Salt Lake Tribune
got wind of it, they wrote an

1609
01:37:31,810 --> 01:37:33,730
expose on him.
This.

1610
01:37:34,050 --> 01:37:37,330
I love this, the Salt Lake
Tribune wrote.

1611
01:37:38,280 --> 01:37:41,600
Joseph Musser is a chief clerk
and assistant secretary of the

1612
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:45,160
Utah Light and Railway Company.
His father is assistant

1613
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:48,120
historian and political
political mouthpiece of the

1614
01:37:48,120 --> 01:37:49,920
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints.

1615
01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:52,880
So that confirms what we're
talking about.

1616
01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:55,120
The spokesman, right?
Yeah.

1617
01:37:55,520 --> 01:37:58,520
So his father's the political
mouthpiece of the Church of

1618
01:37:58,520 --> 01:37:59,840
Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints.

1619
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:04,520
He himself is a high ecclesiast
in the Church, though, but about

1620
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:07,890
40 years of age.
He is a high counselor of

1621
01:38:07,890 --> 01:38:11,170
Granite Stake and as such passes
on the differences between the

1622
01:38:11,170 --> 01:38:14,530
Saints of his stake and his
decisions are final, save that

1623
01:38:14,530 --> 01:38:16,770
an appeal may be taken to the
First Presidency.

1624
01:38:17,610 --> 01:38:21,090
The president of Granite Stake,
Frank Wye Taylor, and his second

1625
01:38:21,090 --> 01:38:24,610
counselor, John M Cannon, are
publicly known to have recently

1626
01:38:24,610 --> 01:38:28,170
contracted plural marriages.
So have the Sunday School

1627
01:38:28,170 --> 01:38:30,410
Superintendent and others the
stake.

1628
01:38:33,780 --> 01:38:37,500
In fact, granite steak is the
hotbed of new polygamy.

1629
01:38:38,300 --> 01:38:41,980
And Forest Dale, which is a part
of the steak, is oftentimes

1630
01:38:41,980 --> 01:38:46,340
spoken of as polygamyville,
inasmuch as as it is a refuge of

1631
01:38:46,340 --> 01:38:49,620
those who are violating the laws
by living, by living their

1632
01:38:49,620 --> 01:38:52,380
religion.
So that's the that's the end of

1633
01:38:52,380 --> 01:38:54,220
the Tribune article on Joseph
Musser.

1634
01:38:55,500 --> 01:38:57,340
So he got, he got their
attention.

1635
01:38:58,020 --> 01:39:03,100
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and as a result of.

1636
01:39:03,100 --> 01:39:06,700
That he got called into the
Quorum of the 12 to talk about

1637
01:39:06,700 --> 01:39:11,660
it.
OK, So what happens in that

1638
01:39:11,660 --> 01:39:14,580
meeting?
So it's 1909, so it's three

1639
01:39:14,580 --> 01:39:18,220
years after the end of The Roots
reads boot hearings and and

1640
01:39:18,620 --> 01:39:20,700
apostles Taylor and Cowley are
dropped, right?

1641
01:39:22,260 --> 01:39:25,620
And I I hope that everyone's
getting all the names right

1642
01:39:25,620 --> 01:39:27,620
because a lot of big names show
up here again.

1643
01:39:27,620 --> 01:39:32,140
So it's he's he's on the carpet
and he writes in his journal was

1644
01:39:32,140 --> 01:39:35,980
requested and I'm just going to
this is this is a journal entry

1645
01:39:35,980 --> 01:39:38,060
that I'm going to read and I'm
going to try to read it as good

1646
01:39:38,060 --> 01:39:40,540
as I can.
And the grammar is kind of

1647
01:39:40,860 --> 01:39:44,020
grammar can be different with
writing and speaking.

1648
01:39:44,020 --> 01:39:47,140
So bear with me.
Was requested to attend a

1649
01:39:47,140 --> 01:39:50,100
meeting with President Francis M
Lyman of the Quorum of the 12 at

1650
01:39:50,100 --> 01:39:54,670
the Temple at 4:30 PM.
I waited until 6:00 PM when I

1651
01:39:54,670 --> 01:39:58,550
was invited into the Apostles
Room, where an inquisition was

1652
01:39:58,550 --> 01:40:01,230
being held by President Lyman
and the following members of the

1653
01:40:01,230 --> 01:40:04,710
Quorum.
John Henry Smith, Heber J.

1654
01:40:04,710 --> 01:40:11,990
Grant, Roger Clawson, Orson F
Whitney, David O McKay, George F

1655
01:40:11,990 --> 01:40:16,510
Richards, and Anthony W Ivins.
K Side Notes.

1656
01:40:17,580 --> 01:40:20,700
Anthony W Ivins is responsible
for like the most total

1657
01:40:20,700 --> 01:40:23,420
marriages after the manifesto
done in Mexico.

1658
01:40:23,420 --> 01:40:27,220
Out of anyone.
Roger Clawson is a notorious

1659
01:40:27,860 --> 01:40:29,780
post manifesto polygamist
apostle.

1660
01:40:29,780 --> 01:40:32,860
In fact he had at least one wife
that was post second manifesto

1661
01:40:33,460 --> 01:40:35,500
that was sealed to him by
Mathias F Cowley.

1662
01:40:36,580 --> 01:40:40,060
And John Henry Smith is there
who obviously helped Joseph

1663
01:40:40,060 --> 01:40:41,860
muster get into the situation
right.

1664
01:40:45,660 --> 01:40:48,100
Continuing with what Joseph
Musser writes, object of the

1665
01:40:48,100 --> 01:40:51,540
Inquisition to get information
regarding of the practice of

1666
01:40:51,540 --> 01:40:54,340
plural marriage, since the
discontinuance thereof by the

1667
01:40:54,340 --> 01:40:57,220
Church.
Also to array those now favoring

1668
01:40:57,220 --> 01:41:00,700
the practice against it was
grilled two hours by the

1669
01:41:00,700 --> 01:41:03,500
Brethren and declared out of
harmony by Brother Grant and

1670
01:41:03,500 --> 01:41:06,580
President Lyman several times
the proceedings were in some

1671
01:41:06,620 --> 01:41:09,740
substance as follows.
I was asked if I knew Brother

1672
01:41:09,740 --> 01:41:13,910
Alpha J Higgs, who had recently
entered into the principle, and

1673
01:41:13,910 --> 01:41:16,750
I talked with him and given him
any encouragement or information

1674
01:41:16,750 --> 01:41:18,750
on that subject.
I answered.

1675
01:41:18,950 --> 01:41:21,190
I have known him for years,
personal friends.

1676
01:41:21,190 --> 01:41:24,230
My conversation with him on the
subject of a very general

1677
01:41:24,230 --> 01:41:26,430
character, Yes, he's not
admitting to.

1678
01:41:27,030 --> 01:41:29,990
Write details, right?
But it's I want to know that

1679
01:41:29,990 --> 01:41:32,510
Alpha J Higgs is someone I want
to research in the future

1680
01:41:32,510 --> 01:41:37,510
because he shows up in early
fundamentalism in the meetings,

1681
01:41:37,510 --> 01:41:39,550
in Group meetings in the in 30s
and 40s.

1682
01:41:39,550 --> 01:41:41,070
Like he's there.
He's in the he's in the priest

1683
01:41:41,070 --> 01:41:46,650
of group later and for what I
know about him is he was sent up

1684
01:41:46,650 --> 01:41:52,770
to Canada to take a wife in like
in 1909 around this time.

1685
01:41:52,770 --> 01:41:54,170
Right.
And they find out, the apostles

1686
01:41:54,170 --> 01:41:57,410
find out and he got he got
excommunicated the next year

1687
01:41:57,410 --> 01:42:00,690
like 1910 he was cut off like
that anyways.

1688
01:42:03,010 --> 01:42:05,890
So yeah, there are conversations
of general, you know, of general

1689
01:42:05,890 --> 01:42:08,730
character now.
They asked him, do I know of his

1690
01:42:08,730 --> 01:42:11,410
personal affairs?
Asked if I had to talk to anyone

1691
01:42:11,410 --> 01:42:14,350
about the subject since
President Smith's statement in

1692
01:42:14,350 --> 01:42:17,190
the Tabernacle five years ago.
That's the second manifesto,

1693
01:42:17,190 --> 01:42:18,390
right?
And to whom?

1694
01:42:18,830 --> 01:42:20,990
Had anyone talked to me, and who
were they?

1695
01:42:21,270 --> 01:42:25,910
Right answer, yes.
But any such conversations were

1696
01:42:25,910 --> 01:42:28,430
of a confidential nature, and I
did not feel of liberty to

1697
01:42:28,430 --> 01:42:32,470
divulge them In a parenthetical
statement, he says this attitude

1698
01:42:32,470 --> 01:42:36,510
was strongly criticized by
Brothers Lyman, Smith and Grant.

1699
01:42:36,910 --> 01:42:39,680
But I could not change.
And so you kind of see a little

1700
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:42,480
bit of a turncoat unfortunately,
with John Henry Smith at that

1701
01:42:42,480 --> 01:42:47,920
point or or he's playing, you
know, the, you know, team

1702
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:50,040
politics.
It's so messy.

1703
01:42:50,960 --> 01:42:54,120
It's so messy.
I mean, I mean, I'm even

1704
01:42:54,120 --> 01:42:56,280
thinking about Joseph F Smith.
Here, right?

1705
01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:02,240
Here is a guy who who does issue
the 2nd Manifesto, but when

1706
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:05,880
people approach him, we have
several anecdotes.

1707
01:43:06,970 --> 01:43:10,970
Stories from people who request
to enter the principle of plural

1708
01:43:10,970 --> 01:43:13,610
marriage.
And he doesn't say no.

1709
01:43:13,610 --> 01:43:17,210
What he says is, well, if you
can find someone to seal you,

1710
01:43:17,210 --> 01:43:20,530
God bless you in that.
Or I know I know someone who

1711
01:43:20,530 --> 01:43:22,490
knows the ceiling ordinance.
Right.

1712
01:43:23,210 --> 01:43:25,450
And all of a sudden someone just
pops up right?

1713
01:43:25,770 --> 01:43:31,210
And so it's so messy and and and
and John Henry Smith is isn't

1714
01:43:31,450 --> 01:43:34,290
muddies the water further and
and so we don't.

1715
01:43:34,850 --> 01:43:38,490
We don't get a good idea of of
obviously with Grant.

1716
01:43:38,490 --> 01:43:41,130
I think we can make make the
assumption at this point that

1717
01:43:41,130 --> 01:43:45,410
Grant is dead set on at some
point this is going to go away

1718
01:43:45,530 --> 01:43:47,850
permanently.
At this point Grant and Lyman

1719
01:43:47,850 --> 01:43:50,850
are are are done.
They're done with polygamy and

1720
01:43:50,850 --> 01:43:52,970
the others aren't necessarily
and we're going to see that.

1721
01:43:52,970 --> 01:43:55,210
And I don't think even John
Henry Smith was done completely

1722
01:43:55,210 --> 01:43:57,890
with this.
And I I like him enough with the

1723
01:43:57,890 --> 01:44:01,650
work that he did with brother
Muster so far that I, you know,

1724
01:44:01,650 --> 01:44:06,030
I'm rooting for him.
On the other side, they ask him,

1725
01:44:07,390 --> 01:44:11,110
If they ask him, have you heard
anybody claiming that people

1726
01:44:11,110 --> 01:44:15,630
could get in now or I get in the
principle I stated, I presume I

1727
01:44:15,630 --> 01:44:18,310
could go out on the street and
find 200 people who would claim

1728
01:44:18,310 --> 01:44:21,790
that Who are they?
Well, the Saints generally.

1729
01:44:22,510 --> 01:44:25,990
Why should they claim it?
And I love Joseph's response

1730
01:44:25,990 --> 01:44:29,330
here because it is generally
understood that many were

1731
01:44:29,330 --> 01:44:32,850
permitted to get in since the
Woodruff Manifesto and that

1732
01:44:32,850 --> 01:44:35,770
being true, that people think
the opportunity is still open.

1733
01:44:36,610 --> 01:44:40,970
They ask him, do you think so?
Yes, I have an idea that it is.

1734
01:44:41,930 --> 01:44:45,770
What right have you to think so?
The same as I have expressed.

1735
01:44:48,010 --> 01:44:49,730
So he's getting a little spicy
here.

1736
01:44:49,730 --> 01:44:51,130
It sounds like he's getting a
little.

1737
01:44:51,610 --> 01:44:53,490
He's starting to clap back a
little bit.

1738
01:44:54,850 --> 01:44:56,650
What blows my mind, and I'm
going to spoil it for the

1739
01:44:56,650 --> 01:44:58,970
readers, is he doesn't get
excommunicated for another 12

1740
01:44:58,970 --> 01:45:03,050
years.
I find it interesting that he

1741
01:45:03,090 --> 01:45:06,730
they drug him in to talk about
somebody else, not himself.

1742
01:45:07,290 --> 01:45:08,490
Well, so far, right?
Yeah.

1743
01:45:08,530 --> 01:45:10,650
I yeah.
I mean, actually, in my

1744
01:45:10,650 --> 01:45:12,890
recollection, I don't even know
if they talked to him about his

1745
01:45:12,890 --> 01:45:15,090
wife, right.
But we're talking even after the

1746
01:45:15,090 --> 01:45:17,490
second manifesto, according to
Joseph Musser.

1747
01:45:17,490 --> 01:45:20,650
Joseph F Smith, who issued that
second Manifesto, told him

1748
01:45:20,730 --> 01:45:24,610
specifically, go ahead and take
this third wife or, you know, do

1749
01:45:24,610 --> 01:45:26,090
it.
You know, I command you or

1750
01:45:26,090 --> 01:45:29,130
whatever.
But yeah, they're asking about

1751
01:45:29,130 --> 01:45:33,810
everyone else, right.
And he may say, have you ever

1752
01:45:33,810 --> 01:45:36,530
heard any talk on the subject
with President Frank White

1753
01:45:36,530 --> 01:45:40,930
Taylor or John M Cannon?
Answer These brethren are good

1754
01:45:40,930 --> 01:45:43,490
and faithful men having the
spirit of their calling.

1755
01:45:43,490 --> 01:45:46,130
And if you will ask them, I feel
sure that they will tell you

1756
01:45:46,130 --> 01:45:50,850
anything you need to know.
And they they say, but we are

1757
01:45:50,850 --> 01:45:54,980
asking you.
Well, I can't tell you and in

1758
01:45:54,980 --> 01:45:58,060
parentheticals that says
sometimes spent in endeavoring

1759
01:45:58,060 --> 01:46:00,420
to show me my mistake and not
answering this question.

1760
01:46:00,420 --> 01:46:04,500
But I still refused.
And after that they asked him

1761
01:46:04,620 --> 01:46:07,580
asked They asked who could
perform such marriage.

1762
01:46:08,100 --> 01:46:09,980
Answer.
I did not pretend to know, but

1763
01:46:09,980 --> 01:46:12,780
President Smith had the keys and
could authorize them if he

1764
01:46:12,780 --> 01:46:14,460
desired without consulting
anyone.

1765
01:46:15,460 --> 01:46:17,860
Had he done it?
That is for him to answer.

1766
01:46:19,230 --> 01:46:23,030
So it's the circle back and
forth, back and forth.

1767
01:46:23,590 --> 01:46:27,070
Would that authority have to
come from him to either grant or

1768
01:46:27,070 --> 01:46:31,030
revoke the privilege?
I so understand President Smith

1769
01:46:31,030 --> 01:46:32,990
understands his affairs better
than I do.

1770
01:46:34,070 --> 01:46:37,230
Have I, they asked, have I ever
talked with any of the leading

1771
01:46:37,230 --> 01:46:41,790
brethren on the subject?
Yes, with men such as President

1772
01:46:41,790 --> 01:46:44,830
Snow, George Buchanan, and
Apostle Merrill, all now

1773
01:46:44,830 --> 01:46:48,790
deceased since five years ago.
I talked with Brother Merrill

1774
01:46:49,070 --> 01:46:51,590
how many times I had two
conversations with him.

1775
01:46:52,190 --> 01:46:54,430
What is the nature of them?
I cannot tell.

1776
01:46:55,070 --> 01:46:58,190
And so for the for the reader's
sake, we'll take a break there.

1777
01:46:58,510 --> 01:47:03,950
Mariner Wood Merrill is another
very famous post manifesto

1778
01:47:03,950 --> 01:47:08,470
polygamist apostle, and I don't
know if he took any wives

1779
01:47:08,470 --> 01:47:14,430
himself, but he administered in
a lot of plural ceilings because

1780
01:47:14,430 --> 01:47:16,110
he and guess where do you want
to know where?

1781
01:47:16,990 --> 01:47:18,910
No.
He was president of the Logan

1782
01:47:18,910 --> 01:47:29,190
Temple and so he did a lot of
ceilings in the Logan Temple.

1783
01:47:30,310 --> 01:47:35,230
Geez.
So at this point, though

1784
01:47:35,230 --> 01:47:37,990
unfortunately, brother Mariner
Meryl is dead.

1785
01:47:40,310 --> 01:47:41,150
They.
Yeah.

1786
01:47:41,510 --> 01:47:44,500
And then they asked him a
personal question.

1787
01:47:44,740 --> 01:47:47,780
Have you taken additional
blessings during the past five

1788
01:47:47,780 --> 01:47:49,580
years?
I cannot answer.

1789
01:47:50,300 --> 01:47:54,260
And then in parentheticals it
says chorus of voices that shows

1790
01:47:54,260 --> 01:47:58,180
that he has no.
No, no, hang, hang tight.

1791
01:47:58,940 --> 01:48:01,860
I find that statement to be very
interesting.

1792
01:48:01,900 --> 01:48:05,020
Have you taken any additional
blessings?

1793
01:48:05,540 --> 01:48:08,260
Right not.
Have you entered into this

1794
01:48:08,260 --> 01:48:10,540
dirty, filthy practice, Have
you?

1795
01:48:11,550 --> 01:48:16,470
Have you right.
Wow.

1796
01:48:16,990 --> 01:48:20,190
We could do an episode just on
this, on this line of

1797
01:48:20,190 --> 01:48:22,310
questioning.
Holy cow, we could have.

1798
01:48:22,390 --> 01:48:26,950
We absolutely could have.
Holy cow, I'm trying.

1799
01:48:27,630 --> 01:48:29,390
Who asked the question?
Does it say?

1800
01:48:29,670 --> 01:48:33,070
Doesn't say who in the
likelihood is that It's probably

1801
01:48:33,070 --> 01:48:36,030
Francis Lyman or President
Grant, but I don't know that for

1802
01:48:36,510 --> 01:48:37,830
sure.
He's not president yet.

1803
01:48:37,830 --> 01:48:39,630
Apostle Grant.
Which?

1804
01:48:40,060 --> 01:48:43,620
It makes me wonder why they
worded it that way, knowing who

1805
01:48:43,620 --> 01:48:45,500
they are.
Well, it could have just been

1806
01:48:45,500 --> 01:48:48,660
nomenclature that was in common
use at that time prior to that

1807
01:48:48,660 --> 01:48:50,340
time too, right?
Because it was considered a

1808
01:48:50,340 --> 01:48:54,700
blessing to enter into the
principle or to what I always

1809
01:48:54,700 --> 01:48:58,620
like to say about when people
ask why is why is they call the

1810
01:48:58,620 --> 01:49:00,140
new and everlasting covenant,
right?

1811
01:49:00,140 --> 01:49:03,140
Because each time you enter into
it, it's it's it's renewing and

1812
01:49:03,140 --> 01:49:05,860
it's everlasting, right?
It's new every single time you

1813
01:49:05,860 --> 01:49:08,300
enter into the covenant of
marriage.

1814
01:49:08,300 --> 01:49:11,760
Right.
And so, yeah, it's it.

1815
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:13,640
It just ties together.
That is, yes.

1816
01:49:13,640 --> 01:49:16,000
This is a refreshing of
additional blessings.

1817
01:49:16,000 --> 01:49:18,000
Right.
And so I could see why they'd

1818
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:21,440
refer to it that way.
But apparently it upset a lot of

1819
01:49:21,440 --> 01:49:24,360
people, you know, saying that,
you know, he's being evasive

1820
01:49:24,360 --> 01:49:25,360
with his answers.
Right.

1821
01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:29,880
Which show obviously he's taken
more, more wives slash

1822
01:49:29,880 --> 01:49:34,240
blessings, you know, And this
one looks like it's from Brother

1823
01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:36,440
Lyman.
And he says, now, Brother

1824
01:49:36,440 --> 01:49:40,450
Musser, then here's here's the
pitch right brother Muster.

1825
01:49:40,450 --> 01:49:44,290
We want you hereafter to join
with us in putting this thing

1826
01:49:44,290 --> 01:49:47,170
down.
If anybody comes to you for

1827
01:49:47,170 --> 01:49:51,770
information or encouragement,
tell them it can't be done, that

1828
01:49:51,770 --> 01:49:56,010
it is wrong to desire and that
no attentions whatever should be

1829
01:49:56,010 --> 01:49:58,210
bestowed upon the sisters with
this in view.

1830
01:49:59,090 --> 01:50:02,130
Wow.
So they they offered.

1831
01:50:02,490 --> 01:50:05,410
Come to the come to the dark
side, right?

1832
01:50:05,410 --> 01:50:10,310
You know?
I'm just waiting for somebody to

1833
01:50:10,310 --> 01:50:16,550
say execute Order 66 that that's
the moment where I believe if if

1834
01:50:16,550 --> 01:50:20,110
he had taken that deal, we would
have seen him in the corner of

1835
01:50:20,110 --> 01:50:22,950
the 12 apostles.
Right, right.

1836
01:50:22,950 --> 01:50:25,990
No, that makes sense.
That makes perfect sense.

1837
01:50:27,150 --> 01:50:29,870
And his response is President
Lyman.

1838
01:50:29,870 --> 01:50:32,550
I cannot do that.
But I suggest if you have any

1839
01:50:32,550 --> 01:50:35,710
instructions to give me, it
should be done through my stake

1840
01:50:35,710 --> 01:50:39,330
president, with whom I am in
harmony and will endeavor to

1841
01:50:39,330 --> 01:50:44,610
remain so, bearing in mind we
know who his stake authorities

1842
01:50:44,610 --> 01:50:47,930
are, right?
And so here's a parenthetical

1843
01:50:47,930 --> 01:50:52,490
paragraph that I'll read in in
from his journal on this.

1844
01:50:53,010 --> 01:50:56,410
And it says this answer brought
out quite an animated discussion

1845
01:50:56,410 --> 01:50:59,770
on the subject of authority, the
brethren in the main contending

1846
01:50:59,770 --> 01:51:02,890
that it was none of the business
of the stake presidency what

1847
01:51:02,890 --> 01:51:05,170
should be required by the
general authorities of

1848
01:51:05,170 --> 01:51:07,550
individuals.
I took the grounds that

1849
01:51:07,550 --> 01:51:11,070
instructions might be given by
apostles contrary to those

1850
01:51:11,070 --> 01:51:13,550
received from my state
president, in which event I

1851
01:51:13,550 --> 01:51:16,750
would be justified in following
the council of the state

1852
01:51:16,750 --> 01:51:19,430
presidency.
This position was endorsed in

1853
01:51:19,430 --> 01:51:23,190
part as I brought forth
illustrations, but as pertaining

1854
01:51:23,190 --> 01:51:25,710
to the president's subject, it
was declared that I was wrong.

1855
01:51:26,630 --> 01:51:33,910
So this, you know, this reminds
me of when Paul the apostle back

1856
01:51:33,910 --> 01:51:38,380
in the New Testaments on trial
for, you know, being Paul, I

1857
01:51:38,380 --> 01:51:42,020
guess, and you've got the
Pharisees on one side of the

1858
01:51:42,020 --> 01:51:43,940
court and the Sadnessies on the
other.

1859
01:51:44,780 --> 01:51:49,100
And they're both, they all hate
the Nazarenes or the Christians,

1860
01:51:49,100 --> 01:51:50,260
right.
Right.

1861
01:51:50,540 --> 01:51:58,100
The you know and he gets out of
custody by saying and declaring

1862
01:51:58,420 --> 01:52:01,700
that Oh well because of Jesus
Christ I have a testimony of the

1863
01:52:01,700 --> 01:52:05,170
resurrection and they sent the
Pharisees.

1864
01:52:05,170 --> 01:52:08,010
And the saddest is against each
other because the saddest is

1865
01:52:08,010 --> 01:52:12,770
don't believe in a literal
resurrection and the Pharisees

1866
01:52:12,770 --> 01:52:15,170
do.
And so the and through the

1867
01:52:15,170 --> 01:52:18,730
fighting that resulted during
this trial the Romans then

1868
01:52:18,730 --> 01:52:22,970
extorted Paul out right of the
and so you've got this whole

1869
01:52:22,970 --> 01:52:26,860
thing erupting in this trial
about authority with the 12 and

1870
01:52:26,860 --> 01:52:30,340
authority in the states people
are starting to fight over in

1871
01:52:30,340 --> 01:52:33,540
the in the meeting.
Time muster just kind of backs

1872
01:52:33,540 --> 01:52:38,060
out real quietly.
Yeah, well, you can't get away

1873
01:52:38,060 --> 01:52:40,980
just yet.
And they asked him, Well,

1874
01:52:40,980 --> 01:52:45,020
suppose that President Taylor or
a Bishop is out of harmony and

1875
01:52:45,020 --> 01:52:47,620
Joseph muster responds, Well, he
would remove the president if

1876
01:52:47,620 --> 01:52:49,700
out of harmony.
Or a Bishop, the stake president

1877
01:52:49,700 --> 01:52:52,820
would remove him.
Well, have we not the right to

1878
01:52:52,820 --> 01:52:54,700
go into your stake and set
things right?

1879
01:52:55,350 --> 01:52:57,790
And he says yes, if you were
sent by the president of the

1880
01:52:57,790 --> 01:53:01,590
church.
And he says that this position

1881
01:53:01,590 --> 01:53:03,070
was sustained.
But that's like such an

1882
01:53:03,070 --> 01:53:05,470
interesting tangent that they
they completely went off a

1883
01:53:05,470 --> 01:53:10,150
tangent on grilling him, right?
Like where?

1884
01:53:10,150 --> 01:53:14,550
Where are we authorized?
Actually though, I think I think

1885
01:53:14,550 --> 01:53:19,430
this is very interesting because
I think this is the same time

1886
01:53:19,430 --> 01:53:22,870
where where we start to see the
the.

1887
01:53:24,150 --> 01:53:29,470
The new hierarchy if you will
keep in mind up up up to this

1888
01:53:29,470 --> 01:53:35,870
point the quorum of the 12 was
was almost strictly a a a

1889
01:53:35,910 --> 01:53:39,310
missionary kind of of quorum,
right?

1890
01:53:39,310 --> 01:53:42,390
If you read the Doctrine and
Covenants, it's very clear they

1891
01:53:42,390 --> 01:53:46,350
are sent out to testify of Jesus
Christ and.

1892
01:53:47,190 --> 01:53:51,150
They didn't have that standing.
They they didn't have that

1893
01:53:51,150 --> 01:53:55,030
standing leadership role within
the various stakes And and so I

1894
01:53:55,030 --> 01:54:01,430
think this line of line of of
discourse is probably pretty apt

1895
01:54:01,430 --> 01:54:04,710
for the time that we're in where
there's now beginning to be a

1896
01:54:04,710 --> 01:54:10,630
redefinition of the quorum of
the 12 and what they are to do.

1897
01:54:11,750 --> 01:54:17,090
Absolutely.
It looks like John Henry Smith

1898
01:54:17,090 --> 01:54:21,010
is asking this question next
once they get back on track do

1899
01:54:21,010 --> 01:54:24,730
you belong to an oath bound
organization bound together by

1900
01:54:24,730 --> 01:54:30,410
covenants and oaths to stand by
each other Answer I do not and

1901
01:54:30,410 --> 01:54:32,170
have never heard of such an
organization.

1902
01:54:33,130 --> 01:54:37,490
Brother Lyman says, don't you
know that brothers Taylor and

1903
01:54:37,490 --> 01:54:40,970
Cowley were dropped from their
quorum for being out of harmony,

1904
01:54:40,970 --> 01:54:45,490
as you are?
And then bless Orson F Whitney's

1905
01:54:45,490 --> 01:54:47,490
heart?
Orson F Whitney interjects,

1906
01:54:47,490 --> 01:54:50,050
saying, well, the Saints don't
consider that they were out of

1907
01:54:50,050 --> 01:54:52,530
harmony, but that they were
necessary sacrifices.

1908
01:54:55,410 --> 01:55:00,290
Oh, God bless Orson F Whitney.
And Brother Lyman asks, what do

1909
01:55:00,290 --> 01:55:02,690
you think Brother muster?
And he says, I feel just that

1910
01:55:02,690 --> 01:55:05,010
way.
And President Lyman says, what

1911
01:55:05,010 --> 01:55:09,530
right have you to think that?
And Joseph answers because I

1912
01:55:09,530 --> 01:55:12,130
believe there are others that
were just as deserving to be

1913
01:55:12,130 --> 01:55:15,360
dropped as they, but the
necessity for it didn't seem to

1914
01:55:15,360 --> 01:55:17,480
demand it.
Well, who are they?

1915
01:55:18,600 --> 01:55:21,680
I don't wish to mention names,
However, I consider Brother

1916
01:55:21,680 --> 01:55:24,600
Merrill and Brother Teasdale now
dead to be good men.

1917
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:31,520
George Teasdale was another
apostle who was heavily involved

1918
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:33,560
in post manifesto plural
marriages.

1919
01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:36,760
And so brother muster saying,
well you could have cut off

1920
01:55:36,760 --> 01:55:38,200
brother Merrill and Brother
Teasdale.

1921
01:55:38,200 --> 01:55:42,560
But you didn't do that, did you?
Yeah, yeah, so.

1922
01:55:43,880 --> 01:55:48,600
What's their response to that?
Apostle Clawson says Brother

1923
01:55:48,600 --> 01:55:51,600
Taylor and Callie offered to
harmonize themselves with the

1924
01:55:51,600 --> 01:55:53,480
Quorum.
They admitted that they had been

1925
01:55:53,480 --> 01:55:55,240
out of harmony.
And then Brother Lyman

1926
01:55:55,240 --> 01:55:57,760
interjects.
I want this body of men to

1927
01:55:57,760 --> 01:56:00,400
understand that they did not
harmonize themselves with the

1928
01:56:00,400 --> 01:56:06,520
Quorum.
So that's, you know, Francis

1929
01:56:06,520 --> 01:56:09,000
Lyman's getting heated.
You know this at this point.

1930
01:56:09,360 --> 01:56:13,750
What do we know about him?
Well he's the son of a mass

1931
01:56:13,750 --> 01:56:19,230
alignment who was an apostle
since the Navu days, you know.

1932
01:56:19,550 --> 01:56:25,150
Unfortunately a mass alignment
was dropped and excommunicated

1933
01:56:25,470 --> 01:56:29,030
in around 1860 during the God VI
movement thing that we mentioned

1934
01:56:29,030 --> 01:56:34,310
previously And but I've read
I've read talks from him in the

1935
01:56:34,310 --> 01:56:36,470
journal of Discourse because I
really enjoyed.

1936
01:56:36,470 --> 01:56:39,830
I thoroughly enjoyed stuff I've
Seen from a mass alignment and

1937
01:56:39,910 --> 01:56:46,100
and so Francis Lyman comes from
good stock and yeah he lived the

1938
01:56:46,100 --> 01:56:51,020
principal and he was even.
He's a he's a post manifesto

1939
01:56:51,020 --> 01:56:55,340
polygamist too.
He was he had John W Taylor seal

1940
01:56:55,340 --> 01:56:56,700
a wife to him after the
manifesto.

1941
01:56:57,300 --> 01:56:58,740
I just.
Keep coming back to the word

1942
01:56:58,740 --> 01:57:01,020
messy.
This is all really messy.

1943
01:57:01,300 --> 01:57:03,100
It's it's messy.
There's there's nothing, there's

1944
01:57:03,100 --> 01:57:08,550
no clean break here whatsoever.
And there's I don't want to get

1945
01:57:08,550 --> 01:57:11,310
too far off in the field because
we're talking on Joseph Muster.

1946
01:57:11,310 --> 01:57:14,510
But, you know, there was a point
when John W Taylor was out in

1947
01:57:14,510 --> 01:57:18,430
Canada, and it was during the
Reid Smoot hearings, right.

1948
01:57:18,430 --> 01:57:22,550
Or right before it.
And President Joseph F Smith had

1949
01:57:22,550 --> 01:57:25,830
just been subpoenaed into the
Supreme Court to to talk about

1950
01:57:26,030 --> 01:57:29,550
all this nonsense.
And President Lyman's like, all

1951
01:57:29,550 --> 01:57:31,790
right, I'm going to get myself
to Canada and I want to drag

1952
01:57:31,790 --> 01:57:34,550
John W Taylor to the Supreme
Court and testify.

1953
01:57:34,550 --> 01:57:38,200
Right.
And he's going with them,

1954
01:57:38,200 --> 01:57:40,080
basically.
And he says, you know, Francis,

1955
01:57:40,080 --> 01:57:42,120
I just want you to know that I
want to tell everything.

1956
01:57:42,960 --> 01:57:45,560
If you bring me there, I'm going
to, I'm going to say everything

1957
01:57:45,560 --> 01:57:50,360
I know.
And and then Francis Lyman was

1958
01:57:50,360 --> 01:57:52,520
like, all right, second thought,
you stay put.

1959
01:57:55,520 --> 01:58:02,200
Dude, this might be, this might
be the the best episode that

1960
01:58:02,200 --> 01:58:06,360
I've ever had where we are
breaking down the players.

1961
01:58:06,800 --> 01:58:10,560
And breaking down the arguments,
if if there's one thing we're

1962
01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:14,640
starting to see out of out of
musters, I'll just call it what

1963
01:58:14,640 --> 01:58:19,400
it is.
Ministry is that he seems to by

1964
01:58:19,400 --> 01:58:23,440
his being faithful, he is
forcing the these conversations

1965
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:27,720
to now be had.
And we can see the split now

1966
01:58:27,720 --> 01:58:31,200
beginning to form within the
Quorum of the 12 Apostles.

1967
01:58:33,480 --> 01:58:35,400
Yeah.
And it's unfortunate it's in

1968
01:58:35,400 --> 01:58:37,040
this time.
In this short time period from

1969
01:58:37,040 --> 01:58:42,040
about 1900 to 1909, the majority
of the members of the 12 were

1970
01:58:42,160 --> 01:58:46,640
for for new polygamy, new
celestial plural marriages.

1971
01:58:47,360 --> 01:58:51,560
And but then they start dying.
You have George Teasdale Mariner

1972
01:58:51,560 --> 01:58:58,120
W Merrill.
We have Abraham Owen Woodruff.

1973
01:58:58,680 --> 01:59:01,890
You have Brigham Young, Junior,
they all die.

1974
01:59:01,890 --> 01:59:04,330
And then you have Matthias
Cowley and John W Taylor who are

1975
01:59:04,330 --> 01:59:07,610
dropped from their forum.
And so that's seven, That's

1976
01:59:07,610 --> 01:59:11,250
seven out of 12 right there.
You know that's then you have

1977
01:59:12,210 --> 01:59:14,930
what?
That's the majority, right?

1978
01:59:14,970 --> 01:59:18,490
I mean that and then you have
new people brought in to fill

1979
01:59:18,490 --> 01:59:20,290
the gaps.
Right.

1980
01:59:20,930 --> 01:59:22,810
Hebrew J Grant, probably being
one of them.

1981
01:59:23,330 --> 01:59:25,890
No, he was.
He was already there since 1882.

1982
01:59:26,530 --> 01:59:28,730
No, he was in there forever,
dude.

1983
01:59:28,730 --> 01:59:33,850
But but he also and.
And so like we know, we know

1984
01:59:33,850 --> 01:59:36,730
that Hebrew J Grant and Francis
Lyman were not opposed to new

1985
01:59:36,730 --> 01:59:40,850
polygamy originally.
In fact, Hebrew J Grant went on

1986
01:59:40,850 --> 01:59:43,690
record in the Supreme Court
during the same hearings that I

1987
01:59:43,690 --> 01:59:46,490
mentioned earlier about John W
Taylor being dragged to testify.

1988
01:59:46,490 --> 01:59:48,410
But they said, he said it's not
a good idea.

1989
01:59:48,410 --> 01:59:51,570
I want to expose everything.
If you do, you know, bring me at

1990
01:59:51,570 --> 01:59:54,530
that same the same time frame,
Hebrew J Grant said.

1991
01:59:54,770 --> 01:59:57,090
Look, I want to keep taking
wives until I have a son.

1992
01:59:59,250 --> 02:00:01,880
Wow.
Yeah, because he was only

1993
02:00:01,880 --> 02:00:04,560
getting girls, you know, or if
he didn't have boys, they died

1994
02:00:04,560 --> 02:00:06,080
prematurely, I guess.
I don't know.

1995
02:00:07,480 --> 02:00:10,160
But yeah, so you have the vast
majority and you have other kind

1996
02:00:10,160 --> 02:00:13,160
of you have other sympathetic
people like John Henry Smith.

1997
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:16,320
Anthony Schlund is still a
member of the First Presidency.

1998
02:00:16,320 --> 02:00:20,040
I think you have Anthony W
Ivins, who's probably a member

1999
02:00:20,040 --> 02:00:22,160
of the First Presidency at this
point, but he's kind of turning

2000
02:00:22,160 --> 02:00:26,360
against it at this point.
Now you have Roger Clawson and

2001
02:00:26,360 --> 02:00:28,640
you have Orson F Whitney.
Those are kind of the names that

2002
02:00:28,640 --> 02:00:30,770
are kind of sympathetic at this
point.

2003
02:00:32,090 --> 02:00:37,370
So where were we?
They so Francis Lyman freaks

2004
02:00:37,370 --> 02:00:40,730
out, says they were not trying
to harmonize themselves.

2005
02:00:41,410 --> 02:00:46,760
Speaking of John W and Mathias
Cowley, in a parenthetical

2006
02:00:46,760 --> 02:00:49,800
statement, Joseph Musser records
that I was pressed for an answer

2007
02:00:49,800 --> 02:00:51,360
that I would place myself in
harmony.

2008
02:00:51,600 --> 02:00:54,800
I promised that should the
occasion arise for me to answer

2009
02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:57,520
a brother's inquiry as to how he
might get in.

2010
02:00:57,800 --> 02:01:00,440
I would be willing to tell.
I would be willing to tell him

2011
02:01:00,600 --> 02:01:03,880
how the quorum of the apostles
stood and President Smith's

2012
02:01:03,880 --> 02:01:05,760
statement.
And should he still want

2013
02:01:05,760 --> 02:01:08,680
encouragement, I would encourage
him to lay his case before the

2014
02:01:08,680 --> 02:01:11,520
Lord in prayer.
To this, most of the brethren

2015
02:01:11,720 --> 02:01:16,120
strenuously objective objected,
some making light of prayer on

2016
02:01:16,600 --> 02:01:23,600
the subject.
And Brother Grant asks why, Who

2017
02:01:23,600 --> 02:01:27,160
should I advise them to pray?
And Joseph Musser's answer is,

2018
02:01:27,600 --> 02:01:33,920
because I prayed about it and I
got an answer, Yeah, he's laying

2019
02:01:33,920 --> 02:01:37,760
it down.
Well, well and and also I think.

2020
02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:43,010
I think this shows.
Where?

2021
02:01:43,010 --> 02:01:44,250
Where?
Grant is right.

2022
02:01:44,250 --> 02:01:47,850
If he's saying you don't need to
pray about this, this is a

2023
02:01:47,850 --> 02:01:49,450
foregone conclusion.
You don't.

2024
02:01:49,850 --> 02:01:52,050
What are you praying about,
right.

2025
02:01:55,530 --> 02:01:56,930
It's tough.
It's tough.

2026
02:01:57,530 --> 02:02:01,170
There's there's one redeeming
story I that I know of with

2027
02:02:01,170 --> 02:02:04,210
President Grant.
Is he allowed Byron Harvey,

2028
02:02:04,210 --> 02:02:09,090
Allred Junior to have his second
marriage ratified in the Carston

2029
02:02:09,090 --> 02:02:12,440
Alberta Temple in 1923?
And so we're talking about these

2030
02:02:12,440 --> 02:02:16,120
this these new polygamy deals
right where they can't

2031
02:02:16,120 --> 02:02:19,360
acknowledge their family
publicly in church or whatever,

2032
02:02:19,440 --> 02:02:20,920
and the records aren't in the
church.

2033
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:27,160
But in 1923 after the temple in
in Canada was dedicated

2034
02:02:27,600 --> 02:02:30,400
President Grant allowed that to
be a matter of of record

2035
02:02:30,400 --> 02:02:35,720
supposedly and for for ruling
Allred's dad which and it was

2036
02:02:35,720 --> 02:02:43,520
the marriage that to his mom
right So they they put more

2037
02:02:43,520 --> 02:02:45,040
pressure on him to get in
harmony.

2038
02:02:45,040 --> 02:02:47,720
His final answer said.
It says I cannot promise what my

2039
02:02:47,720 --> 02:02:51,080
future course might be in case
new light came to me on the

2040
02:02:51,080 --> 02:02:53,640
subject.
Brother, Lyman said a number of

2041
02:02:53,640 --> 02:02:55,840
times.
He answers just like the other

2042
02:02:55,840 --> 02:02:58,680
brethren who are in the same
position, while those who are

2043
02:02:58,680 --> 02:03:02,640
not who are not.
Already in a moment to be in

2044
02:03:02,640 --> 02:03:07,000
harmony or what one would think
that these brethren had reversed

2045
02:03:07,040 --> 02:03:11,580
to peace.
He's accusing all these new

2046
02:03:11,580 --> 02:03:14,660
polygamists of getting together
and rehearsing their defense.

2047
02:03:16,860 --> 02:03:21,220
You know the word Inquisition is
very, very appropriate, right?

2048
02:03:23,260 --> 02:03:28,500
That's his word for.
It no, it's it's very, very

2049
02:03:28,500 --> 02:03:31,100
fitting.
But the whole line of

2050
02:03:31,100 --> 02:03:35,220
questioning is very, very thing.
And the more I keep hearing you

2051
02:03:35,220 --> 02:03:40,390
read Francis Lyman.
The more I'm beginning to really

2052
02:03:40,390 --> 02:03:45,750
dislike him.
Oh, just wait, We're going to

2053
02:03:45,750 --> 02:03:47,550
get past him in a bit.
But there's still a little bit

2054
02:03:47,550 --> 02:03:51,150
more.
Brother Ivins.

2055
02:03:51,230 --> 02:03:54,470
That's Anthony W Ivins contended
that it was a sin to break the

2056
02:03:54,470 --> 02:03:57,230
laws of the land.
While it was not wrong to

2057
02:03:57,230 --> 02:04:00,110
practice polygamy formally
before the law against it had

2058
02:04:00,110 --> 02:04:03,270
been pronounced constitutional.
But I was sustained in the

2059
02:04:03,270 --> 02:04:07,260
statement that marriages took
place in our church by authority

2060
02:04:07,500 --> 02:04:10,620
and were approved after the law
and had finally been passed as

2061
02:04:10,620 --> 02:04:12,300
constitutional.
That being the case, the

2062
02:04:12,300 --> 02:04:14,940
morality of the thing was no
different now than formerly.

2063
02:04:15,540 --> 02:04:19,420
I said, meaning Joseph Musser.
I may be a lawbreaker, but so is

2064
02:04:19,420 --> 02:04:22,540
President Smith.
Brother Ivan says no, he isn't,

2065
02:04:22,980 --> 02:04:25,500
and Joseph Musser responds,
Thank the Lord he isn't.

2066
02:04:26,300 --> 02:04:30,620
And then Brother Roger Clawson
interjects saying that President

2067
02:04:30,620 --> 02:04:34,060
Smith escaped imprisonment for
unlawful cohabitation by the

2068
02:04:34,060 --> 02:04:37,380
skin of his teeth.
But he was a judge to guilty and

2069
02:04:37,380 --> 02:04:40,740
fined.
So he he was guilty.

2070
02:04:41,860 --> 02:04:44,060
Brother Clawson asks Brother
Ivins.

2071
02:04:44,580 --> 02:04:47,580
And so they get into a side
debate, right, the apostles

2072
02:04:47,820 --> 02:04:49,580
because now they're contended
just all right.

2073
02:04:49,660 --> 02:04:52,460
So we have to know that Rudger
Clawson is a post second

2074
02:04:52,660 --> 02:04:56,420
manifesto plural mirror, you
know, Pluygumist at this point.

2075
02:04:57,020 --> 02:05:00,100
And so he's now asking Brother
Ivins, well, do you consider it

2076
02:05:00,100 --> 02:05:02,380
more wicked to practice the
principal after the Edmunds

2077
02:05:02,380 --> 02:05:05,650
Tucker Act than it was after the
Poland Act, which was passed

2078
02:05:05,650 --> 02:05:08,850
previously?
You know, because Anthony Ivins

2079
02:05:08,850 --> 02:05:11,090
is now taking an absolutely
ridiculous stance.

2080
02:05:11,090 --> 02:05:13,890
So we need to follow the laws of
the land when it was never legal

2081
02:05:13,890 --> 02:05:17,450
in Mexico or Canada.
It just wasn't really

2082
02:05:17,450 --> 02:05:22,330
criminalized either.
And Anthony Ivins answers yes I

2083
02:05:22,330 --> 02:05:23,570
do.
Meaning I do.

2084
02:05:23,730 --> 02:05:27,130
I do think it's it's it's a sin
and wicked.

2085
02:05:27,210 --> 02:05:29,410
His position was criticized by
the Brethren.

2086
02:05:30,250 --> 02:05:33,370
So he's.
Getting the Brethren to to turn

2087
02:05:33,950 --> 02:05:37,190
and John Henry Smith states that
even after the Woodruff

2088
02:05:37,190 --> 02:05:40,230
Manifesto, some of the marriages
were authorized in Mexico,

2089
02:05:41,950 --> 02:05:45,070
whereas Brother Taylor and
Callie went wrong.

2090
02:05:45,070 --> 02:05:48,470
Was that they were doing it in
the United States, right?

2091
02:05:48,710 --> 02:05:52,590
Which is that that's a cover
because Callie did.

2092
02:05:53,110 --> 02:05:56,030
Callie and Taylor did marriages
in Mexico and Canada too.

2093
02:05:57,670 --> 02:06:00,750
He said that he had obtained the
consent of a woman to marry him

2094
02:06:01,590 --> 02:06:05,590
and had the matter all fixed.
But since the manifesto, upon

2095
02:06:05,950 --> 02:06:08,510
the advice of the president of
the church, he broke off the

2096
02:06:08,510 --> 02:06:10,070
engagement.
That's sad.

2097
02:06:10,670 --> 02:06:14,070
That's John Henry Smith saying
that he was engaged for two

2098
02:06:14,870 --> 02:06:17,510
woman to be married and he was
advised to break it off.

2099
02:06:17,950 --> 02:06:20,790
That sucks.
Does he say by who?

2100
02:06:21,470 --> 02:06:25,350
Says by the President of the
Church, which at this point

2101
02:06:25,350 --> 02:06:29,260
would have been Lorenzo Snow or
Joseph F Smith depending, or or

2102
02:06:29,260 --> 02:06:30,740
even Wilfred Woodruff depending
on when.

2103
02:06:30,740 --> 02:06:33,020
I don't know at what point we're
talking about there.

2104
02:06:35,580 --> 02:06:39,580
So is there any chance that
maybe they didn't, they didn't

2105
02:06:39,580 --> 02:06:44,300
want John Henry Smith engaging
in any more plural marriages?

2106
02:06:44,300 --> 02:06:49,900
That maybe it's specific to him
and not to Musser or anything.

2107
02:06:50,100 --> 02:06:54,540
Or or even look, there's too
much, there's too many eyes on

2108
02:06:54,540 --> 02:06:57,380
you as a member of our quorum
and being so high up in the

2109
02:06:57,380 --> 02:07:00,220
church that we don't really want
the political fallout.

2110
02:07:00,220 --> 02:07:02,380
Like you've like, let's say like
you've taken.

2111
02:07:03,380 --> 02:07:05,420
I mean, I don't, I don't know
how many wives John Henry Smith

2112
02:07:05,420 --> 02:07:08,100
had, right.
So it's like maybe he had a good

2113
02:07:08,180 --> 02:07:09,780
amount.
And it's like if you're living

2114
02:07:09,780 --> 02:07:11,940
your part, right, you're doing
your part to fulfill the law of

2115
02:07:11,940 --> 02:07:13,740
God.
And so we're trying to help

2116
02:07:13,740 --> 02:07:15,580
other people do it who haven't,
right.

2117
02:07:16,860 --> 02:07:19,300
And so we.
But to not bring attention on

2118
02:07:19,300 --> 02:07:22,620
the church, we're going to ask
that you don't do this kind of

2119
02:07:22,620 --> 02:07:23,620
thing.
I can see that.

2120
02:07:24,700 --> 02:07:26,940
It's and and that's the other
part of.

2121
02:07:27,610 --> 02:07:31,050
That that's the other part
that's so hard about this time

2122
02:07:31,050 --> 02:07:36,970
period within the church is we
we don't get a real good idea

2123
02:07:37,090 --> 02:07:39,890
about intent.
Right.

2124
02:07:40,290 --> 02:07:44,650
What what was the intent there?
Was that churchwide?

2125
02:07:44,650 --> 02:07:48,130
Was that individual?
Was it based on how high up you

2126
02:07:48,130 --> 02:07:50,970
were in the church and you know
the heat you could bring?

2127
02:07:51,610 --> 02:07:55,130
It's yeah, I wish we could be a
fly on the wall for some of

2128
02:07:55,130 --> 02:07:57,830
these conversations.
We we're going to get some of

2129
02:07:57,830 --> 02:08:00,110
that now to answer one of those
questions down the line.

2130
02:08:00,110 --> 02:08:02,990
I'll skip a bit.
And they're asking like, OK,

2131
02:08:02,990 --> 02:08:07,270
they're still in this debate.
Like, what justifies these

2132
02:08:07,270 --> 02:08:09,710
things now, you know, because
Anthony Ivan started this thing,

2133
02:08:09,710 --> 02:08:12,470
this dumb thing about like, oh,
it's fine because it was legal.

2134
02:08:12,550 --> 02:08:16,510
You know, it wasn't
unconstitutional or or it wasn't

2135
02:08:16,510 --> 02:08:19,030
deemed constitutional before,
but now it is right and all

2136
02:08:19,030 --> 02:08:23,630
this.
And they're debating, OK, well

2137
02:08:23,630 --> 02:08:25,920
this was done.
And openly like they're saying

2138
02:08:25,920 --> 02:08:28,760
like, yes, these things were
done with approval after the

2139
02:08:28,760 --> 02:08:33,240
manifesto.
And one of them answers yes, but

2140
02:08:33,240 --> 02:08:36,760
the conditions are different
then than they are now.

2141
02:08:37,240 --> 02:08:40,000
And one of the brethren says it
was not meant for the church

2142
02:08:40,040 --> 02:08:42,600
then.
And brothers John John Henry

2143
02:08:42,600 --> 02:08:45,720
Smith says it was never meant
for the church, but it was an

2144
02:08:45,720 --> 02:08:51,760
individual manner.
It was an individual matter, so

2145
02:08:51,760 --> 02:08:56,210
that reflects his feelings about
that and Joseph, Muster says.

2146
02:08:56,210 --> 02:08:59,250
I contended that if the practice
was right for the early days

2147
02:08:59,250 --> 02:09:02,610
under the statement of Joseph
Smith, it could be right and

2148
02:09:02,610 --> 02:09:05,250
proper now.
Throughout the investigation, I

2149
02:09:05,250 --> 02:09:08,250
was treated with a kindly spirit
by the brethren generally,

2150
02:09:08,570 --> 02:09:10,210
Brother Grant being an
exception.

2151
02:09:11,130 --> 02:09:14,530
He appeared impatient,
maintained I was out of harmony

2152
02:09:14,890 --> 02:09:17,090
and there was no use Losing time
with me.

2153
02:09:17,730 --> 02:09:19,490
Brother Ivans was somewhat
impulsive.

2154
02:09:20,190 --> 02:09:23,190
Brothers Clawson, McKay and
Whitney appeared generous,

2155
02:09:23,230 --> 02:09:27,270
considerate and consistent.
My own feelings are these that

2156
02:09:27,270 --> 02:09:30,310
the investigation, that the
investigation along the lines it

2157
02:09:30,310 --> 02:09:34,430
is it is being carried out is
unwarranted, that the forum is

2158
02:09:34,430 --> 02:09:37,510
not united, and that such
actions as these will tend to

2159
02:09:37,510 --> 02:09:39,510
lose them their influence among
the Saints.

2160
02:09:40,070 --> 02:09:42,910
Brother Grant said that they
were going to cut off Brother

2161
02:09:42,990 --> 02:09:46,590
Alpha J Higgs from the Church,
and his tone and manner were

2162
02:09:46,590 --> 02:09:49,490
vindictive.
My impression were that the

2163
02:09:49,490 --> 02:09:54,330
brethren are not actuated by the
proper spirit, Brother Lyman

2164
02:09:54,330 --> 02:09:56,090
said.
If you had come to me for

2165
02:09:56,090 --> 02:09:58,810
counsel, I would have given you
good advice.

2166
02:09:59,290 --> 02:10:03,010
My answer was that I did go to
Goodman, whose advice I

2167
02:10:03,010 --> 02:10:05,370
followed.
Wow.

2168
02:10:07,250 --> 02:10:11,490
So, so I want to make sure I'm
understanding this correctly.

2169
02:10:12,730 --> 02:10:16,690
Musser calls Heber J Grant
vindictive.

2170
02:10:17,490 --> 02:10:20,810
Yes, that's the word he used.
What's he what?

2171
02:10:20,810 --> 02:10:24,730
What does he got to be angry
about her seeking vengeance for?

2172
02:10:25,290 --> 02:10:31,530
Well, I know she was trying to
marry Fanny Wooley at one point,

2173
02:10:33,250 --> 02:10:38,730
and Fanny Wooley is Lauren C
Wooley's aunt, and she turned

2174
02:10:38,730 --> 02:10:40,210
him down and married someone
else.

2175
02:10:41,570 --> 02:10:46,450
So there's bad love between
Grant and the Wooley family, by

2176
02:10:46,450 --> 02:10:48,130
the way.
Okay.

2177
02:10:48,550 --> 02:10:51,190
All right.
Yeah, that and that's a whole

2178
02:10:51,190 --> 02:10:53,510
other that could be a whole
other podcast episode.

2179
02:10:54,710 --> 02:10:55,750
But he's.
I don't know.

2180
02:10:55,750 --> 02:10:59,350
It looks, you know, I that's one
reason I can see from being

2181
02:10:59,350 --> 02:11:01,790
vindictive.
But Willie's not even really on

2182
02:11:01,790 --> 02:11:05,230
the scene at the moment yet and
we're not, and we're really not

2183
02:11:05,230 --> 02:11:10,550
going to talk about him a whole
lot in this to stay on topic

2184
02:11:10,550 --> 02:11:12,310
anyways.
Anyway, that's what I got for

2185
02:11:12,310 --> 02:11:13,790
that.
That's the end of that interview

2186
02:11:15,510 --> 02:11:18,970
or inquisition.
All right, Michael, this has

2187
02:11:18,970 --> 02:11:20,970
been fascinating.
You have done your homework.

2188
02:11:21,290 --> 02:11:23,730
But I want to stop right here
because we're about two hours

2189
02:11:23,730 --> 02:11:27,370
and 15 minutes in and we haven't
even really got to the teachings

2190
02:11:27,690 --> 02:11:29,930
of Musser yet.
So let's go ahead.

2191
02:11:29,930 --> 02:11:32,650
Let's take a pause here.
Let's come back next week.

2192
02:11:32,650 --> 02:11:35,970
Let's finish up his history,
going to his teachings, and then

2193
02:11:35,970 --> 02:11:38,610
kind of wrap this whole thing
up, if you're good with that.

2194
02:11:38,890 --> 02:11:39,930
All right.
Bye, everybody.

2195
02:12:01,770 --> 02:12:04,370
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade Podcast.