Episode #81: The Life Of Helen Mar Kimball, Plural Wife Of Joseph Smith & Woman Of God W/Hannah Stoddard

1
00:00:02,760 --> 00:00:06,280
Joseph Smith gets judged harshly
by historians and ex Mormons

2
00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,760
alike.
They will often employ tactics

3
00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,120
such as presentism to make their
arguments.

4
00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,640
This is where we judge people
from history by taking them out

5
00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,920
of their time and drop them into
our time and judge their actions

6
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,600
and character without any
context whatsoever.

7
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,920
The results is a slanted view of
history without considering

8
00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,830
historical context.
Also, when it comes to Joseph

9
00:00:27,830 --> 00:00:30,790
Smith's plural marriages,
historians and ex Mormons paint

10
00:00:30,790 --> 00:00:33,990
Joseph Smith as a predator
without considering the words of

11
00:00:33,990 --> 00:00:36,270
the women who were his plural
wives.

12
00:00:36,430 --> 00:00:39,750
They do his wives a disservice
by painting them as victims.

13
00:00:39,950 --> 00:00:42,990
The shocking truth is, when you
read the words of his wives, you

14
00:00:42,990 --> 00:00:46,270
soon conclude that they were not
victims of a predator but

15
00:00:46,270 --> 00:00:48,190
strong, faithful, articulate
women.

16
00:00:48,790 --> 00:00:51,830
This inconvenient fact then
leads to the conclusion that

17
00:00:51,830 --> 00:00:55,790
Joseph Smith was not a sexual
predator, as some have purported

18
00:00:56,430 --> 00:00:58,670
on this episode.
I have Hannah Stoddard back on

19
00:00:58,670 --> 00:01:01,670
the podcast to talk about her
new book, which is a biography

20
00:01:01,670 --> 00:01:04,989
of perhaps his most
controversial wife, Helen Mark

21
00:01:04,989 --> 00:01:07,430
Kimball.
As always, Hannah breaks down

22
00:01:07,430 --> 00:01:10,870
her life in a scholarly way,
taking into account historical

23
00:01:10,870 --> 00:01:13,990
context and using primary
sources to tell the tale of her

24
00:01:13,990 --> 00:01:16,110
life.
Stick around for a fascinating

25
00:01:16,110 --> 00:01:19,670
conversation that will be sure
to change some minds on this

26
00:01:19,670 --> 00:01:21,390
wife of the prophet Joseph
Smith.

27
00:01:21,870 --> 00:01:25,510
That's next on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade podcast.

28
00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:28,620
Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

29
00:01:28,620 --> 00:01:32,540
crude and coarse to become and
raise men and women of virtue

30
00:01:32,540 --> 00:01:34,500
and characters, a Herculean
task.

31
00:01:35,020 --> 00:01:37,940
To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

32
00:01:38,380 --> 00:01:41,740
Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

33
00:01:41,740 --> 00:01:44,260
Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

34
00:01:44,260 --> 00:01:47,340
Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

35
00:01:47,620 --> 00:01:51,260
that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

36
00:01:51,260 --> 00:01:54,620
in society, something that
today's society is sorely

37
00:01:54,620 --> 00:01:56,790
lacking.
What I did is I went back

38
00:01:56,790 --> 00:01:59,670
through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

39
00:01:59,670 --> 00:02:03,870
sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

40
00:02:03,870 --> 00:02:06,110
in which you see Washington's
original rule.

41
00:02:06,270 --> 00:02:09,070
Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

42
00:02:09,070 --> 00:02:12,310
century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

43
00:02:12,310 --> 00:02:14,030
where to use this in the real
world.

44
00:02:14,470 --> 00:02:17,230
Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

45
00:02:17,230 --> 00:02:20,150
parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

46
00:02:20,710 --> 00:02:23,230
To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com.

47
00:02:23,550 --> 00:02:26,990
Go to the bottom of the page,
search out the blog post, and

48
00:02:26,990 --> 00:02:30,230
order your copy today.
I can bear personal testimony

49
00:02:30,230 --> 00:02:34,070
from personal experience that
this is an invaluable tool to

50
00:02:34,070 --> 00:02:36,870
help you raise men and women of
virtue and character.

51
00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,200
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade Podcast.

52
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,960
Hannah, how are you?
I am doing good.

53
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:12,440
How about you?
I'm doing good.

54
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,200
What's that?
I'm excited to be back.

55
00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,760
I'm excited to have you back
your your episode that we did

56
00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:22,120
about a year ago now.
It was one of the one, one of my

57
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,720
favorites for sure.
So I'm I'm super excited to have

58
00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,280
you back on, but everything
going good.

59
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,200
Yeah, yes.
Yep.

60
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,260
Just.
Staying busy.

61
00:03:31,420 --> 00:03:34,580
You know, I think we talked a
little bit last time about how

62
00:03:34,620 --> 00:03:37,900
can I have that homestead and we
also have life.

63
00:03:37,900 --> 00:03:40,940
So I think sometimes people look
at the Joseph Smith Foundation

64
00:03:40,940 --> 00:03:42,140
and think, well, that's all they
do.

65
00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:45,380
And actually that's like the
side project, right?

66
00:03:45,540 --> 00:03:46,660
Right.
Night.

67
00:03:46,660 --> 00:03:49,500
And on weekend, really.
Just Sunday, actually.

68
00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:52,420
Nice.
Anything new coming from the

69
00:03:52,500 --> 00:03:55,620
from the Joseph Smith Foundation
that people should be aware of?

70
00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,080
Yes, actually.
So we are.

71
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,320
We've started releasing them on
our website and we're adding new

72
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,080
teachings every week.
But we have a new project called

73
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,960
the Complete Teachings of Joseph
Smith.

74
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,680
And I think I might have
mentioned it.

75
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,880
I can't remember when we talked
last year.

76
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,160
We were just we were working on
it.

77
00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,959
We've been working on it for six
years about, but it's all of

78
00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:21,120
Joseph Smith's teachings
organized by topic, and it's

79
00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,040
going to be completely freely
available.

80
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,920
Online and it even has links and
sources back to the original

81
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,000
document.
So it makes it really easy to

82
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:30,680
see all of Joseph Smith's
teachings.

83
00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,520
We're going through his letters,
his sermons, his histories, just

84
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,720
all sorts of things.
So that is, I'm so excited.

85
00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,080
We've been working on it for so
many years with different

86
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:46,520
volunteers and we're actually
launching it now online and and

87
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,360
then we're gearing up to do a
lot on the Book of Mormon

88
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,500
actually.
So there will be some fun things

89
00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:54,100
coming out in the next few
months.

90
00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:58,420
This September is actually the
200th anniversary of when Marone

91
00:04:58,420 --> 00:04:59,940
and I first came to Joseph
Smith.

92
00:05:00,260 --> 00:05:02,580
So, and we're just feeling
really strongly like the Book of

93
00:05:02,580 --> 00:05:04,020
Mormon is more important than
ever.

94
00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:08,670
We've got to start using it.
Both for individual conversion,

95
00:05:08,670 --> 00:05:12,830
but to fight to save the
constitution, to just clean up

96
00:05:12,830 --> 00:05:15,310
our society.
And we're not using it like we

97
00:05:15,310 --> 00:05:16,790
should.
We're kind of bolting it on the

98
00:05:16,790 --> 00:05:19,790
side like, oh, it's this fun
thing for backup instead of

99
00:05:19,790 --> 00:05:21,310
know.
It should be our main textbook.

100
00:05:21,630 --> 00:05:24,670
So we're going to try to do a
big emphasis on the book of

101
00:05:24,670 --> 00:05:26,670
Mormons starting in the fall and
then next year.

102
00:05:26,670 --> 00:05:29,190
So that's kind of what's coming
down the line soon.

103
00:05:29,230 --> 00:05:31,390
But So what do you guys do after
lunch?

104
00:05:31,550 --> 00:05:34,270
I mean, I'm just kidding.
I mean, you guys are so busy.

105
00:05:34,550 --> 00:05:36,630
Holy cow.
That's that's some ambition just

106
00:05:36,630 --> 00:05:39,750
stuff, Hannah.
I mean it's it's nuts.

107
00:05:39,750 --> 00:05:43,230
I I couldn't agree with you more
though, on on the Book of

108
00:05:43,230 --> 00:05:47,390
Mormon.
And lately I've been feeling

109
00:05:47,390 --> 00:05:51,990
more and more impressed that for
the sake of not just individuals

110
00:05:51,990 --> 00:05:55,070
but of the nation, the Book of
Mormon has to come forward a

111
00:05:55,070 --> 00:05:58,470
little bit more.
That book is so unique in the

112
00:05:58,470 --> 00:06:02,940
sense that and and I don't want
to take this away from from

113
00:06:02,940 --> 00:06:07,140
anyone who who lives somewhere
else because it is vital for for

114
00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:09,500
testimony of everybody
worldwide.

115
00:06:09,860 --> 00:06:12,660
But I think it's got a special
part to play within America

116
00:06:13,260 --> 00:06:16,460
right and and sometimes when you
start seeing the things where it

117
00:06:16,460 --> 00:06:19,820
talks about those secret
combinations and and what's

118
00:06:19,820 --> 00:06:22,540
going on.
I mean, it's it's pretty much a

119
00:06:22,540 --> 00:06:24,780
blueprint for what's happening
right now.

120
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:26,960
Yeah.
And even more important, I

121
00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,760
think, is that the Gorman has
the problems but also has the

122
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,520
answers.
I think that sometimes what we

123
00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,560
overlook because it's things
like father and son teams

124
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,080
working together.
Where do you even see that in

125
00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:41,720
our culture today?
But if you look in the Book

126
00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,160
Mormon all the way through it,
whether it's Alma the Elder

127
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,360
working with Alma the Younger,
Alma the Younger working with

128
00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,440
Helaman or Cory Anton or Helaman
working with me, fine Lehigh.

129
00:06:51,950 --> 00:06:54,510
The in you know in the book of
Helaman and 3rd Knee 5 and then

130
00:06:54,510 --> 00:06:59,030
you've got it, it's it's a
father and son team effort

131
00:06:59,030 --> 00:07:02,510
working and I think that's why
saying is attacking family so

132
00:07:02,510 --> 00:07:04,950
strongly attacking fathers.
But it's right there it's like

133
00:07:04,950 --> 00:07:08,230
Mormons trying to tell us
something like this is how to

134
00:07:08,230 --> 00:07:10,110
fight this fight.
This is how to save the

135
00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:12,670
constitution.
How did Captain Maroni do it.

136
00:07:13,150 --> 00:07:15,510
Let's actually study it
specifically.

137
00:07:15,950 --> 00:07:20,630
So it's been, it's actually been
a journey for me because.

138
00:07:21,010 --> 00:07:24,210
The Book of Mormon is not
something that I just naturally

139
00:07:24,610 --> 00:07:28,490
gravitated to, just just
inherently, which is kind of

140
00:07:28,490 --> 00:07:30,250
interesting.
I love the doctrine.

141
00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:31,810
Conan is I love the Old
Testament.

142
00:07:31,810 --> 00:07:34,810
I love the New Testament.
In my teens, and as the Book

143
00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:37,770
Mormon, I was like, oh, it's
nice, but I just didn't have

144
00:07:37,770 --> 00:07:40,890
this huge connection.
But even in the last few years,

145
00:07:40,930 --> 00:07:43,810
that has radically shifted.
So I feel like I've seen both

146
00:07:43,810 --> 00:07:47,070
sides.
I've been in that place of

147
00:07:47,070 --> 00:07:49,230
treating it lightly.
I've been in that place of being

148
00:07:49,230 --> 00:07:53,750
apathetic and then realizing,
whoa, I totally missed the boat

149
00:07:53,830 --> 00:07:56,310
on this one.
So that's why I'm pretty

150
00:07:56,310 --> 00:07:57,990
excited.
Well, that's awesome.

151
00:07:58,390 --> 00:08:00,830
I can't wait to see that, that,
that come forward.

152
00:08:00,830 --> 00:08:05,190
That's going to be great.
So I brought you on today to

153
00:08:05,190 --> 00:08:09,310
talk about the book you did
about Joseph Smith's plural

154
00:08:09,310 --> 00:08:12,670
wife, Helen Mark Kimball, and I
love it.

155
00:08:12,710 --> 00:08:14,510
Now, this is going to be a
series, right?

156
00:08:15,010 --> 00:08:20,850
Or is this just OK?
Yeah, I love that you started

157
00:08:20,850 --> 00:08:24,050
with her because she's the one
that is surrounded by most

158
00:08:24,050 --> 00:08:26,730
controversy being linked to
Joseph Smith.

159
00:08:27,450 --> 00:08:30,970
And so the fact you started with
her, I think, was absolutely

160
00:08:30,970 --> 00:08:33,610
amazing.
What was it that made you decide

161
00:08:33,610 --> 00:08:36,929
to start there with her?
Yeah, OK.

162
00:08:36,970 --> 00:08:41,450
That's a really good question.
So tackling the whole issue of

163
00:08:41,450 --> 00:08:46,680
Joseph Smith plural wives.
Actually was never on my radar.

164
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,120
And I talk about this a little
in the introduction and it just,

165
00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,160
it wasn't on my list.
It was something that I

166
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,160
personally didn't really.
It wasn't a big subject that I

167
00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,760
was necessarily something
studying all the time or

168
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,360
interested in.
I didn't really have a problem.

169
00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,160
It wasn't really just, it just
was not on my radar.

170
00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,960
It was not my list.
I never thought I was going to

171
00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:14,430
find a book like this, actually.
And but as I got more involved

172
00:09:14,510 --> 00:09:17,430
in the whole faith crisis area
and trying to help people with

173
00:09:17,430 --> 00:09:21,190
church history and just seeing
Joseph Smith come under attack,

174
00:09:22,070 --> 00:09:26,230
this issue, the issue of plural
marriage and the issue of Joseph

175
00:09:26,230 --> 00:09:29,070
Smith's practice, the plural
marriage just kept coming up and

176
00:09:29,070 --> 00:09:31,750
coming up.
And and I just saw so many

177
00:09:31,750 --> 00:09:35,790
people that were hurting and I
realized, OK, we have to address

178
00:09:35,790 --> 00:09:39,790
this because there's no reason
for people to be struggling.

179
00:09:39,790 --> 00:09:42,590
It's.
Not, which might be shocking for

180
00:09:42,590 --> 00:09:44,070
some people.
They might be like, well, this

181
00:09:44,070 --> 00:09:46,510
is one of the top like these
crisis issues.

182
00:09:46,510 --> 00:09:50,390
What I really don't think it has
to be that complicated actually,

183
00:09:50,390 --> 00:09:54,950
if we get into the history.
And so I realized, OK, we need

184
00:09:54,950 --> 00:09:58,310
to, we need to address this and
we need to do it in a way that

185
00:09:58,310 --> 00:10:04,790
can help see the full picture.
I felt like I was coming at it

186
00:10:04,790 --> 00:10:09,790
from a unique position of being
a woman and being able to.

187
00:10:10,300 --> 00:10:14,900
Say I I think too many times
this subject has been addressed

188
00:10:14,900 --> 00:10:19,100
with books on polygamy or on
plural marriage, and that's all

189
00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:23,020
they talk about.
And and I really felt like we're

190
00:10:23,020 --> 00:10:27,220
missing the, we're missing the
point because this story is

191
00:10:27,220 --> 00:10:31,500
really about real people and
people are not all of us are not

192
00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:33,420
about one event that happened in
our lives.

193
00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:37,460
We're complex people with
personalities and and stories

194
00:10:37,460 --> 00:10:40,500
and feelings and and
perspectives and and that's

195
00:10:40,500 --> 00:10:42,740
important.
So if you want to understand

196
00:10:42,740 --> 00:10:45,460
Joseph Smith, if you want to
understand any of the women.

197
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,200
You have to understand them as
human beings and not as just

198
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,960
these names and dates.
And when were they sealed to

199
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,600
Joseph Smith and what did they
say about their experience?

200
00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,400
Even know what was their, what
were their lives like, What was

201
00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,840
their personality in areas that
are seemingly unrelated.

202
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,880
And and so that was the approach
that we wanted to take.

203
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,120
We we said, OK, we're going to
approach this from the

204
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,440
perspective of the women #1, #2,
we're going to focus on their

205
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,440
entire lives, because you're
only going to understand Helen.

206
00:11:15,870 --> 00:11:19,430
If you understand, Helen,
shocking idea, right.

207
00:11:19,790 --> 00:11:23,670
And so that was the approach
that we take, which I have not

208
00:11:23,670 --> 00:11:26,630
seen taken before.
I've seen people say, Oh yeah,

209
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:28,430
we're going to tell the stories
of the women or we're going to

210
00:11:28,430 --> 00:11:31,030
talk about them, but they don't
tell their life stories.

211
00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:34,230
In fact, to the point of
originally, volume One was

212
00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:36,750
actually going to be about four
of the wives.

213
00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:39,270
So we were going to try to do 4
short biographies.

214
00:11:39,270 --> 00:11:41,670
So we're going to do Elizaar
Snow, Mary Elizabeth, Rawlins

215
00:11:41,670 --> 00:11:45,350
Lightner, Helen Mark Kimball,
and Rachel, Ivan's Grant.

216
00:11:46,290 --> 00:11:49,010
Interestingly enough, because
each of them have really just

217
00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:51,810
interesting kind of twists and
turns in their story and we want

218
00:11:51,810 --> 00:11:55,130
to give good representation.
And I felt like that would be

219
00:11:55,130 --> 00:11:57,890
fine because I was doing a
little bit of research on Helen

220
00:11:57,890 --> 00:12:00,010
Mark Kimball and I didn't see
much.

221
00:12:00,010 --> 00:12:05,090
So I figured, well, we must not
know very much about her or have

222
00:12:05,410 --> 00:12:09,210
a ton of original writings.
And then I discovered actually

223
00:12:09,210 --> 00:12:12,810
we have her widowed journals.
They were up at Utah State.

224
00:12:12,810 --> 00:12:14,820
We have.
Tons of letters.

225
00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:18,500
We have poetry she wrote.
We have publications of

226
00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:20,860
firsthand, eyewitness,
eyewitness experiences of the

227
00:12:20,860 --> 00:12:24,100
restoration that she wrote.
We we have a lot.

228
00:12:24,140 --> 00:12:27,820
And I realized, wait a minute,
this story is not being told.

229
00:12:28,460 --> 00:12:31,260
We're not talking about this.
We've got to tell her story.

230
00:12:31,260 --> 00:12:35,500
And so it turned into an entire
book just on Helen Mark Kimball.

231
00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:38,500
And honestly, we are not even
scratching the surface on how

232
00:12:38,500 --> 00:12:39,940
much there is to share about her
life.

233
00:12:39,940 --> 00:12:43,580
So I just felt like we've got to
tell her story.

234
00:12:43,850 --> 00:12:46,530
Because you can't understand
even one doctrine.

235
00:12:46,530 --> 00:12:48,890
Truth is circumscribed into one
great hole, right?

236
00:12:48,890 --> 00:12:51,730
So you've got to understand,
what is her perspective on

237
00:12:51,730 --> 00:12:53,730
discipleship?
What's her perspective on

238
00:12:53,730 --> 00:12:56,450
motherhood?
What's her perspective on faith?

239
00:12:58,090 --> 00:13:02,330
All of those stories, all those
narratives, how she grew, what

240
00:13:02,330 --> 00:13:05,450
kind of a personality she was,
all of them play a part in

241
00:13:05,450 --> 00:13:09,650
answering the question.
Was Joseph Smith a man of low

242
00:13:09,650 --> 00:13:11,410
character?
Was he an adulterer?

243
00:13:11,970 --> 00:13:14,630
Was he a?
Pedophile when we come to the

244
00:13:14,630 --> 00:13:16,390
issue of Helen Mark Kimble,
right?

245
00:13:16,390 --> 00:13:19,630
I mean, I hate.
To but that is the conversation

246
00:13:19,630 --> 00:13:22,950
that's taking place.
So let's just hit this head on

247
00:13:22,950 --> 00:13:25,270
and like you said, so like go
big or go home.

248
00:13:25,270 --> 00:13:26,510
Let's start with Helen Mark
Kimble.

249
00:13:26,510 --> 00:13:28,350
She's the most controversial.
Why not?

250
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:30,950
Yeah.
And there's so much there that

251
00:13:30,950 --> 00:13:33,630
you said that.
That's just spot on for me.

252
00:13:36,830 --> 00:13:42,880
I I think you have you you have
a real great point when you say

253
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,240
that there's been books about
plural marriage but not really

254
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,120
telling the stories right.
Not not making it personal.

255
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:56,160
It's done it like an academic
arms length kind of of of way

256
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,840
because I think people are
naturally uncomfortable with it

257
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,360
and.
This history, you can't do that.

258
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,840
If you if you approach it that
way, it's not accurate.

259
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,710
It's not going to be the real
story right.

260
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:11,870
And so it's done with this arm's
length distance because I I I

261
00:14:11,870 --> 00:14:14,990
think I think people just hate
to dive into it because it is

262
00:14:14,990 --> 00:14:18,670
controversial and it and it is
it can be uncomfortable right

263
00:14:19,550 --> 00:14:23,350
and and you're talking to a
fundamentalist right and and but

264
00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:26,030
I can even recognize that that
that that that can be

265
00:14:26,030 --> 00:14:28,630
uncomfortable for people.
However, it's part of our

266
00:14:28,630 --> 00:14:34,060
history and if we want to to
relegate that we don't do a good

267
00:14:34,060 --> 00:14:35,540
job.
The other thing I'll say I just

268
00:14:35,540 --> 00:14:39,140
had on David W Patton and he'll
his episode will be right before

269
00:14:39,140 --> 00:14:42,060
yours.
And he's the guy who's creating

270
00:14:42,060 --> 00:14:44,980
the the 6th season series on
Joseph Smith.

271
00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:50,900
And we had a long talk about for
some reason we tend to turn

272
00:14:51,140 --> 00:14:54,140
people of history into marble
statues, right?

273
00:14:54,140 --> 00:14:58,150
We don't personalize them.
We don't show who they are.

274
00:14:58,350 --> 00:15:00,950
And I'm not talking about a
whitewash kind of history.

275
00:15:00,950 --> 00:15:04,550
I'm talking about an honest
history because sometimes I

276
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:08,350
think, like one of my heroes is
George Washington, right?

277
00:15:08,470 --> 00:15:10,470
I love the man.
The man's incredible.

278
00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:17,190
But until you get into who he
actually is, you don't get to

279
00:15:17,190 --> 00:15:22,230
see maybe some of the warts too.
And and those are important, and

280
00:15:22,230 --> 00:15:25,980
they're important because
sometimes we look at people like

281
00:15:25,980 --> 00:15:30,420
Washington, like Joseph Smith,
those heroes from history and we

282
00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:33,540
have a way of saying, well, I
could never do a great work

283
00:15:33,540 --> 00:15:35,340
because look at how good he is,
right?

284
00:15:35,340 --> 00:15:39,540
Look, I mean he's he's just he's
he's immortal, immortal, almost

285
00:15:39,540 --> 00:15:43,180
right.
But we don't do them justice by

286
00:15:43,180 --> 00:15:46,580
saying that.
And then we we through that

287
00:15:46,580 --> 00:15:49,140
theory of, you know, gosh,
they're just way, so much better

288
00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:50,820
than me.
And I can never come close to

289
00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:53,330
that.
We relegate ourselves on the

290
00:15:53,330 --> 00:15:57,050
sidelines because we think that
there's a litmus test for doing

291
00:15:57,050 --> 00:16:00,970
good.
And and certainly we want to be

292
00:16:00,970 --> 00:16:04,970
in line with God and stuff.
But if if we're constantly being

293
00:16:04,970 --> 00:16:07,930
ourselves down because we think
we can't come close to that

294
00:16:08,810 --> 00:16:12,730
because we have an idealized
version of people from history,

295
00:16:13,730 --> 00:16:15,770
we'll we'll never get off the
couch.

296
00:16:16,610 --> 00:16:18,250
So I I couldn't agree with you
more.

297
00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:21,670
The other thing I'll say is that
when it comes to plural

298
00:16:21,670 --> 00:16:27,590
marriage, in some ways I think
we as and I'll just speak from

299
00:16:27,710 --> 00:16:33,550
from the mail point of view, we
we we don't carry as much weight

300
00:16:33,550 --> 00:16:38,630
on the issue, right, because
people will say well of course

301
00:16:38,630 --> 00:16:41,070
you're in favor of it.
You're a guy, right.

302
00:16:41,070 --> 00:16:43,310
And and so that that gets
discounted.

303
00:16:43,950 --> 00:16:48,530
I had someone on here not too
long ago from pro-life Utah, and

304
00:16:48,530 --> 00:16:52,130
we were talking about this, that
that sometimes men can get.

305
00:16:53,050 --> 00:16:56,810
We naturally want to bow out of
the abortion talk because we're

306
00:16:56,810 --> 00:16:59,090
not a woman.
And so the fact you're telling

307
00:16:59,090 --> 00:17:02,130
the story from a woman's point
of view I think is fantastic.

308
00:17:03,370 --> 00:17:06,569
So go ahead.
I was just going to say I think

309
00:17:06,569 --> 00:17:08,290
that's an absolutely fundamental
issue.

310
00:17:08,290 --> 00:17:11,369
You know, there's a statement by
Joseph Smith where he says.

311
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,200
That the entire issue of even
practicing plural marriage, he

312
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,319
said, is a woman's choice.
That's his exact words.

313
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:23,960
And so I really feel like, and
we go into this a little bit

314
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,840
more in the book where plural
marriage is not about more than

315
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,200
one, why that is And that alone
is a really.

316
00:17:35,570 --> 00:17:40,410
Harmful misconception And and
that was one of the approaches

317
00:17:40,410 --> 00:17:43,690
that I tried to really include
in the book, is understanding

318
00:17:43,890 --> 00:17:47,010
the reason why Helen Mark
Kimball gained her testimony of

319
00:17:47,010 --> 00:17:48,730
plural marriage.
Because you have to realize she

320
00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:50,650
struggled with it from the
beginning.

321
00:17:50,650 --> 00:17:52,930
And that's one of the most
powerful things about her story.

322
00:17:53,210 --> 00:17:55,730
She's not someone that just came
to this easily.

323
00:17:55,730 --> 00:17:58,850
She had to work through it and
what?

324
00:17:59,580 --> 00:18:03,780
Brought her that conversion is
actually understanding the

325
00:18:03,780 --> 00:18:07,860
doctrine of how God lives, God's
doctrine of family life.

326
00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:11,780
God's doctrine of Zion.
And it's it's all of those

327
00:18:11,780 --> 00:18:16,380
doctrines that helped her
understand, OK, This is why I'm

328
00:18:16,420 --> 00:18:20,060
choosing this and and more of
the pieces involved.

329
00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:23,220
And so I'm just back to your
point about really telling the

330
00:18:23,220 --> 00:18:28,500
real history.
I agree with you because we need

331
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:35,820
to see these these are people
who lived real lives, and that

332
00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:39,660
means that they had the same
temptations, struggles.

333
00:18:40,460 --> 00:18:43,180
They had overcome the natural
man, just like every single one

334
00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:45,340
of us.
But the great thing about these

335
00:18:45,340 --> 00:18:49,460
heroes is that they did it, and
that's what's powerful about

336
00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:51,260
their story.
And it wasn't easy.

337
00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:52,860
And that was one of the things I
remember.

338
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,480
As I was writing the book, I
tried so hard I spent so many

339
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,600
hours in prayer.
Because it's really a heavy

340
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,360
responsibility when you're
telling someone else's story

341
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,640
that's not here to do it
themselves, right?

342
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,400
Because you're you're having to.
However you write it with, even

343
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,720
if you're not introducing things
that are your own opinion,

344
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,860
you're still going to be.
Presenting the story in a

345
00:19:20,860 --> 00:19:23,900
certain way and and not
necessarily putting words in

346
00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:27,580
their mouth but kind of shifting
the perspective a certain way.

347
00:19:27,980 --> 00:19:31,500
And I really felt I I was like
OKI want Helen.

348
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:35,340
Mark Kimball is alive.
She's watching us right now and

349
00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:37,660
what was she thinking?
What was her perspective?

350
00:19:37,660 --> 00:19:40,500
What was she feeling?
And make sure that came through.

351
00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:43,460
And I remember 1 morning I was
just praying and praying and

352
00:19:43,460 --> 00:19:46,960
praying and I was like.
What does she want brought out

353
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,920
of her story?
And one of the things that I

354
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,840
felt impressed with was, what
does the life of a disciple

355
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,840
really look like?
Because we all have this idea

356
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,920
that profits are men with white
beards that live in tents,

357
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,400
right?
Like when we read about Abraham

358
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,080
or Moses, we don't see them as
real men.

359
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,080
And I think that's actually
really damaging.

360
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,040
Like Lehigh is not an old man
with a white beard walking

361
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,440
around in the desert.
He's he's just a dad.

362
00:20:15,060 --> 00:20:16,900
He's a dad with kids who's
listens.

363
00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:19,700
He has to walk through, get his
own testimony.

364
00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:21,740
And that's what we read about in
first Nephi.

365
00:20:22,620 --> 00:20:25,140
Nephi is a teenager.
He's trying to figure life out,

366
00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:27,580
too.
So coming to Helen Mark Kimball,

367
00:20:27,580 --> 00:20:29,500
what does the life of a disciple
look like?

368
00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:31,980
It's hard.
It requires sacrifice.

369
00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:35,300
Sometimes it's not easy, and
sometimes things don't go right.

370
00:20:35,620 --> 00:20:43,080
And walking through what gave
her what made her take the step

371
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,000
and the choice that she wanted
to do this because originally at

372
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,920
the beginning of her life she
talks about how she doesn't want

373
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,200
sacrifice.
She's like I'm not cut out to be

374
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,320
a St. my parents are but this is
just not me.

375
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,400
And that's not even talking
about the subject of floral

376
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,920
marriage.
That's just talking about being

377
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,680
a latter day St. and the
persecution that comes with that

378
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,830
and and being consecrated and
and putting in a lot of

379
00:21:06,830 --> 00:21:09,790
sacrifices that that family was
a missionary family.

380
00:21:09,790 --> 00:21:12,350
I mean her dad is the one who
literally opened the door for

381
00:21:12,350 --> 00:21:15,950
the gospel in England and all
those miraculous stories.

382
00:21:15,950 --> 00:21:19,030
What wasn't just, oh, he got on
a boat and went and preached the

383
00:21:19,030 --> 00:21:20,790
gospel and people joined the
church.

384
00:21:21,070 --> 00:21:25,790
Their entire family made
sacrifices for years for those

385
00:21:25,790 --> 00:21:28,150
doors to be open.
She was there.

386
00:21:28,150 --> 00:21:31,030
She was one of those family
members making those sacrifices.

387
00:21:31,030 --> 00:21:33,110
What was that like?
And so, and what gave her the

388
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:37,750
what?
What converted her to be willing

389
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:41,550
to make those choices?
Was she brainwashed or did she

390
00:21:41,550 --> 00:21:45,430
make this decision thoughtfully?
And did she have a reason for

391
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:46,670
it?
And if she has a reason for it,

392
00:21:46,670 --> 00:21:49,350
we need to tap into that to
understand how we're supposed to

393
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:50,750
live.
Sorry that's a really long

394
00:21:50,750 --> 00:21:52,630
winded and kind of going off
topic.

395
00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:54,190
No, no, you're good.
You're good.

396
00:21:56,150 --> 00:21:59,230
You said it at the beginning.
And and I want to preface this

397
00:21:59,230 --> 00:22:04,070
by by saying this Helen Mark
Kimball, if I'm not mistaken, is

398
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:06,370
the.
The young woman who, when she

399
00:22:06,370 --> 00:22:09,370
marries Joseph Smith, they
described as almost 15.

400
00:22:09,930 --> 00:22:11,050
Yes.
Yes.

401
00:22:11,450 --> 00:22:12,690
She was 14 years old.
Yeah.

402
00:22:12,930 --> 00:22:16,530
Right.
And and we'll dive into context

403
00:22:16,530 --> 00:22:19,410
here in a minute because I think
context is super important when

404
00:22:19,410 --> 00:22:24,410
we have this conversation.
But you said when, when, when we

405
00:22:24,410 --> 00:22:28,240
first got rolling here that.
There wasn't a lot on her.

406
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,520
Did you struggle to find sources
on her?

407
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,480
I mean, was it a deep dig or was
it something that was maybe just

408
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,680
kind of off in the corner that
no one looked at?

409
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,160
Yes and no.
Yeah, it's hard in the sense of

410
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:48,160
I didn't know they existed.
So we kind of had to find that

411
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,440
out.
So that's going through the

412
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,480
church history archives and and
and seeing a footnote somewhere

413
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,320
where Todd Compton's
referencing, oh, her widow

414
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:58,720
Diaries.
And you're like, well, where are

415
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,680
these widow Diaries?
Let's get a hold of them.

416
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,400
And then once you actually get a
hold of them, there are hundreds

417
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,560
and hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds of pages.

418
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,800
And you can't really write about
her story unless you've read all

419
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,520
of that, because there's context
and there's progression.

420
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,060
And so there it was.
It was it.

421
00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:21,780
It required some digging to find
everything.

422
00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:25,660
Just because no one's really
taken the time to organize this

423
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:28,260
and compile this.
It's not like we found a letter

424
00:23:28,260 --> 00:23:33,100
that no one had ever read
before, but there has been a lot

425
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:36,300
of apathy.
I feel like personally, towards

426
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:40,180
our history.
I just wonder why?

427
00:23:40,540 --> 00:23:42,340
Why is this not more easy to
find?

428
00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:49,950
Why is this just not more easily
accessible for any of us to look

429
00:23:49,950 --> 00:23:51,990
up?
And I don't think there's the

430
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:54,230
angle of some people are like,
Oh well, we're trying to hide

431
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:57,550
the history.
And honestly, I don't think it's

432
00:23:57,670 --> 00:23:59,590
as much that as I think it's
apathy.

433
00:24:00,110 --> 00:24:05,430
I think it's how many of us are
saying I want to learn about

434
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:10,270
these women because I want to
learn what it means to be a

435
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:13,790
mother and Zion and I want to
know what's expected of me.

436
00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:17,220
And that is a question that I've
had a lot in my life.

437
00:24:17,260 --> 00:24:23,020
Because I remember a few years
ago having a conversation with a

438
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:27,260
group of women and we were
talking about how all of us had

439
00:24:27,660 --> 00:24:30,420
failed female role models in our
lives.

440
00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:34,140
Women that we knew close to us
that should have been role

441
00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:37,660
models that were not.
And that left all of us feeling

442
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:42,150
a little lost about what it
means to be a woman.

443
00:24:42,150 --> 00:24:45,270
Because you have all of these
messages in the culture of

444
00:24:45,270 --> 00:24:47,750
feminism.
And then you also have very,

445
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:52,470
very extremely harmful
stereotypes of what it means to

446
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:56,310
be a conservative woman, what it
means to be a biblical wife,

447
00:24:57,150 --> 00:25:01,830
connotations of submission,
family order that have been

448
00:25:01,910 --> 00:25:04,150
almost knee jerk reactions to
feminism.

449
00:25:04,350 --> 00:25:07,420
Well, this is how feminine women
dress and it's good.

450
00:25:07,420 --> 00:25:09,580
You know, we we get into
stereotypes.

451
00:25:09,860 --> 00:25:13,780
Oh, good girls are in the pink
world and they avoid the boys

452
00:25:13,780 --> 00:25:16,500
world, which is blue.
And that's and we're doing that

453
00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:21,260
to avoid feminism and and anyway
just just weird stereotypes that

454
00:25:21,260 --> 00:25:24,740
aren't necessarily scriptural,
that aren't necessarily even

455
00:25:24,780 --> 00:25:28,460
accurate.
And so I I I feel like on both

456
00:25:28,460 --> 00:25:32,820
sides, right and the left, we
have harmful messages coming for

457
00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:34,540
women.
And so I was having this

458
00:25:34,540 --> 00:25:38,660
conversation with these women
and I was like, well, how can we

459
00:25:39,180 --> 00:25:43,020
restore what it means to be true
women when we don't have a

460
00:25:43,020 --> 00:25:47,020
living example in front of us?
It's like trying to discover and

461
00:25:47,020 --> 00:25:50,340
grasp, grasp something that you
haven't seen before.

462
00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:54,420
And all of us just came to the
conclusion as we were talking,

463
00:25:54,830 --> 00:25:57,990
that God had given us role
models in these early women of

464
00:25:57,990 --> 00:26:00,590
the Restoration and we needed to
search them out.

465
00:26:00,630 --> 00:26:04,190
And the more I search them out,
I realized, why is it so hard

466
00:26:04,190 --> 00:26:08,780
for me to find Eliza Snow's
teachings like this should just

467
00:26:08,780 --> 00:26:11,140
be more indigestible.
Why aren't there better

468
00:26:11,140 --> 00:26:13,100
biographies written about these
women?

469
00:26:13,340 --> 00:26:14,620
Why don't we have their
journals?

470
00:26:14,620 --> 00:26:16,180
Why?
And and the good and the bad and

471
00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:17,540
the ugly.
And that's what we got.

472
00:26:17,540 --> 00:26:19,980
Get it into with Helen R Kimmel.
And I've actually gotten some

473
00:26:19,980 --> 00:26:22,180
Flack.
Some people have said, Why did

474
00:26:22,180 --> 00:26:25,180
you bring out some aspects of
her life, like her struggle to

475
00:26:25,180 --> 00:26:28,540
live the Word of Wisdom?
We go into that, a whole chapter

476
00:26:28,540 --> 00:26:34,300
on it until she grew up and her
body got addicted basically to

477
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:36,580
coffee and it was a hard, hard
struggle.

478
00:26:36,580 --> 00:26:40,500
She never completely overcame
and she tried, almost kills

479
00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:42,820
herself multiple times trying to
get over.

480
00:26:42,820 --> 00:26:44,860
It's it's an incredible story
actually.

481
00:26:45,780 --> 00:26:47,380
But but I want to know the
stories.

482
00:26:47,380 --> 00:26:50,980
I want to know about her staying
up late at night with insomnia.

483
00:26:50,980 --> 00:26:53,540
I want to know what her emotions
were when her son committed

484
00:26:53,540 --> 00:26:55,460
suicide because she had a son
commit suicide.

485
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:57,340
I want to know what she was
wrestling through.

486
00:26:57,540 --> 00:27:02,530
I want to know about her anxiety
to train her children.

487
00:27:02,530 --> 00:27:05,130
Right.
And she has a deep anxiety of

488
00:27:05,130 --> 00:27:06,650
that that she talks about in her
journal.

489
00:27:06,650 --> 00:27:09,410
Is she doing enough?
How does she help them get

490
00:27:09,410 --> 00:27:11,010
converted?
How does she help them when

491
00:27:11,010 --> 00:27:13,890
they're struggling?
And and the miracles and then

492
00:27:13,890 --> 00:27:16,690
also the hard times that come
along that with that.

493
00:27:16,690 --> 00:27:21,690
So I guess where I'm going is we
need to tell our history because

494
00:27:21,690 --> 00:27:24,330
we need these role models.
We need to know what we're doing

495
00:27:24,610 --> 00:27:28,200
because I can't be the only
woman out there that is just

496
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,120
feeling so strongly like I want
to be.

497
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,160
I want to be a godly woman, but
I want to know what that means.

498
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,400
And I can't know what that
means.

499
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,600
If I look to the culture, I have
to look to God and and where do

500
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,560
I go?
And I really think these women

501
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,240
hold a big part of that in
playing a role in that.

502
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:52,640
You know, you hit on so many
good points there, but but what

503
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:58,390
when you talk about, you know?
Being a godly woman today, I

504
00:27:58,390 --> 00:28:00,750
think that that is more
important than ever.

505
00:28:01,230 --> 00:28:08,990
I was, I was talking with with
my wife a while back and just

506
00:28:09,070 --> 00:28:11,310
all the stuff that that she had
to do.

507
00:28:12,030 --> 00:28:17,390
And I remember thinking, and
forgive me, I I have sometimes

508
00:28:17,390 --> 00:28:19,790
the most childlike mine.
But I was like, you're like

509
00:28:19,790 --> 00:28:21,750
Sarah Connor from like,
Terminator.

510
00:28:22,330 --> 00:28:23,970
Right.
Not only you got to keep the

511
00:28:23,970 --> 00:28:27,330
wolves of Bay so to speak but
then you got to train up the

512
00:28:27,330 --> 00:28:31,050
kids to do the same thing and
and I help as much as I can but

513
00:28:31,410 --> 00:28:36,890
but we need that that strong
example of of womanhood because

514
00:28:36,890 --> 00:28:41,690
I think too often what you what
you spoke about with knee jerk

515
00:28:41,690 --> 00:28:47,230
reactions is that you know.
Women, women should always be,

516
00:28:47,230 --> 00:28:49,470
you know, soft and quiet and
soft spoken.

517
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:52,190
And that's not what that is,
right?

518
00:28:52,430 --> 00:28:55,710
Get to know these women.
That's when they say, oh, they

519
00:28:55,710 --> 00:28:58,350
were brainwashed into this
because I'm like, you don't know

520
00:28:58,350 --> 00:29:00,710
these women.
These women are feisty.

521
00:29:00,710 --> 00:29:03,190
They are fiery.
They have personality, which I

522
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:04,950
personally like because I relate
with them.

523
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:06,790
So yeah, I'm just backing you
up.

524
00:29:07,230 --> 00:29:13,550
Yeah, no, I I yeah, This idea of
being quiet is not.

525
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,960
A trait that I find in godly
women by and large.

526
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:22,760
Right And and we're in a time
now where I think being quiet

527
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,640
just isn't going to cut it
anymore.

528
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:30,320
And and we got a step forward
and and if if it's done purely

529
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,440
from the male side we're going
to lose a lot there.

530
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,680
There are certain gifts that
come with with the feminine that

531
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,600
that the masculine just doesn't
have, and that's just the truth

532
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,260
of it.
And I want to just add to that,

533
00:29:44,740 --> 00:29:49,020
you know, Eliza Snow, just to
talk about her for a second is a

534
00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:55,940
she is just a big enigma for so
many progressive writers because

535
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:58,620
she was.
She's very strong and and

536
00:29:58,620 --> 00:30:01,380
opinionated and a strong
defender of truth.

537
00:30:01,460 --> 00:30:10,650
And at the same time she is also
incredibly submissive, meek in

538
00:30:10,650 --> 00:30:15,250
the sense of being teachable.
Her motion is under control and

539
00:30:15,290 --> 00:30:19,090
and humble and she has this
incredible blend between the two

540
00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:25,370
and and that is what we have to
discover and that's where we we

541
00:30:25,370 --> 00:30:28,810
kind of fly to extremes on
either side and that's where

542
00:30:28,810 --> 00:30:32,010
we've got to come to understand
what godly character really is.

543
00:30:32,290 --> 00:30:36,050
And this has been a journey for
me trying to understand this

544
00:30:36,050 --> 00:30:41,860
myself and I am by no means and
experts, so no one should look

545
00:30:41,860 --> 00:30:43,860
to me.
But I'm saying from personal

546
00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:48,060
experience, I can understand the
pondering and the prayer of

547
00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:53,300
trying to understand, OK, how do
I exemplify true femininity?

548
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:57,180
And even in Joseph Smith's
teachings, the ways that he said

549
00:30:57,180 --> 00:31:01,500
women need to act and they need
to be very charitable and not

550
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:04,820
overzealous and some of their
some weaknesses that women fall

551
00:31:04,820 --> 00:31:06,700
into.
We can be overzealous and we

552
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:08,260
can.
You know, when we go into root

553
00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:11,060
out evil, we go in for the kill
And Joseph Smith's like whoa,

554
00:31:11,060 --> 00:31:13,900
whoa, whoa.
Anyway, there's just incredible

555
00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:18,360
teachings from Joseph Smith to
the Relief Society and and Eliza

556
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,960
Snow top those as well.
So you have a balance, right?

557
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,920
It's think of the imagery of the
lion and the lamb laying down

558
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,920
together.
My my dad actually put that on

559
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,120
my I had a brother who passed
away and my dad put the lion and

560
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,400
the lamb on his headstone and
and I was talking with my sister

561
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,760
because she remembered this and
I didn't.

562
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,440
My sister Leah, she she said, do
you know why dad put that on

563
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:45,280
there?
And I was like, well, the

564
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:51,760
Millennium and and she said, no,
actually the a true follower of

565
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,920
Christ has the perfect balance
between a lion and a lamb.

566
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,560
You have to be that lion, that's
that defender, that protector.

567
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,440
You've got to hold your ground
and not compromise when you're

568
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,600
fighting against evil.
And at the same time you need to

569
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,760
have the meekness and the
lowliness of heart and the

570
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,640
humility and the gentleness and
the tenderness and the charity

571
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,720
of a lamb.
And you have to have those both

572
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,280
at the same time together and
that is hard.

573
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,640
Most of us fall to 1 extreme or
another.

574
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,680
And finding that that correct
balance.

575
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,520
And I thought a lot about that
recently and that is something

576
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,200
that you actually see with a lot
of these women, like when it

577
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,000
comes to Helen Mark Kimball,
read her pamphlet Why We

578
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,960
Practice Plural Marriage.
It's a series of letters that

579
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,440
she wrote with a non member who
was asking her, why do you guys

580
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,080
do this?
What where is the basis for this

581
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:44,560
in scripture?
What does this look like?

582
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,400
And there is one letter, she
writes, where this man says, oh,

583
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,680
I can see why plural marriage
can be good at times.

584
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,080
There's this woman I know who
needs to be cared for and she

585
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:58,720
would fit in our family and I
should marry her.

586
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,840
And she, Helen Mark Kimball,
writes this scathing letter back

587
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,810
to him, basically saying, but if
you do not have authority and

588
00:33:08,810 --> 00:33:12,010
you do not practice this
according to God's laws and his

589
00:33:12,010 --> 00:33:14,090
boundaries, you are committing
adultery.

590
00:33:14,090 --> 00:33:17,650
That is heinous.
And she just rips into him.

591
00:33:17,650 --> 00:33:22,090
I remember reading this letter,
I was like, whoa, whoa, is this

592
00:33:22,330 --> 00:33:24,970
like, are we like just being a
little over the top here?

593
00:33:25,530 --> 00:33:29,450
But she just, she just goes in
there defending purity and

594
00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:36,070
defending any kind of semblance
of immorality of or adultery or

595
00:33:36,390 --> 00:33:39,950
a lack of chastity.
And at the same time, when you

596
00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:44,630
read Helen or Kimball's
interactions with her children,

597
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:48,310
she's learning that gentleness
and that being tender and being

598
00:33:48,310 --> 00:33:50,070
patient when someone is
struggling.

599
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:52,070
And anyway, you just see this
balance.

600
00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:54,310
And that's why I think it's so
important to know these stories,

601
00:33:54,310 --> 00:33:57,550
because it's practical instead
of sitting here and saying a

602
00:33:57,550 --> 00:33:59,950
follower of Christ is humble,
right?

603
00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:03,500
Mosiah teaches us that.
Well, what does that mean?

604
00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:07,660
We need some examples to
actually see it in practice so

605
00:34:07,660 --> 00:34:11,620
that we don't have a false
imagery of what it means to be a

606
00:34:11,620 --> 00:34:14,900
disabled Christ.
When you went in to study her

607
00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:20,500
life, talk a little bit about
what you expected to see and

608
00:34:20,500 --> 00:34:22,300
then tell me what you actually
saw.

609
00:34:23,460 --> 00:34:26,260
Because I think those those two
things are important because I

610
00:34:26,260 --> 00:34:29,580
think as as.
People, when we try to learn

611
00:34:29,580 --> 00:34:33,900
history, we all have some sort
of preconceived notions of who

612
00:34:34,139 --> 00:34:38,020
these historical figures are.
Often times though those that's

613
00:34:38,460 --> 00:34:40,020
just what they are as
perception.

614
00:34:40,020 --> 00:34:43,020
So again, what you would you
expect to see with Helen, Mark

615
00:34:43,020 --> 00:34:44,699
Kimball versus what you actually
saw.

616
00:34:46,580 --> 00:34:51,100
So I'm trying to think of how to
put this into words.

617
00:34:51,219 --> 00:34:55,290
And because I think a lot of us
probably have the same idea

618
00:34:55,290 --> 00:34:58,490
because we've kind of already
hinted at it a little bit, but I

619
00:34:58,650 --> 00:35:01,210
want to make sure I frame it
accurately.

620
00:35:01,970 --> 00:35:05,970
But sometimes we tell the same 5
miracle stories in church

621
00:35:05,970 --> 00:35:07,970
history, right?
Or it's like the First Vision

622
00:35:07,970 --> 00:35:11,490
and it's like Joseph Smith goes
into the Grove and he has this,

623
00:35:11,490 --> 00:35:14,330
you know, struggle with Lucifer
for a few minutes and then he

624
00:35:14,330 --> 00:35:17,210
sees the father and the son and
it's happy day and and then

625
00:35:17,210 --> 00:35:19,530
Joseph Smith goes and he
translates the Book of Mormon

626
00:35:19,530 --> 00:35:23,570
and and it's just La La la, like
these great stories, right?

627
00:35:24,650 --> 00:35:31,250
And and we lose the blood and
the sweat and the tears and the

628
00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:38,290
reality that of what it means.
So maybe a good example is the

629
00:35:38,290 --> 00:35:41,410
expectations that sometimes
people have like, oh marriage or

630
00:35:41,410 --> 00:35:43,090
having kids like oh it's just
good.

631
00:35:43,090 --> 00:35:45,410
Just it's just so wonderful.
And I have these children and

632
00:35:45,610 --> 00:35:48,130
we're just going to sing
lullabies at night and we're

633
00:35:48,130 --> 00:35:51,250
going to bake cookies and we're
going to like sing around the

634
00:35:51,250 --> 00:35:55,290
Christmas tree carols and and oh
like you know and then they

635
00:35:55,290 --> 00:35:58,770
actually get in there and and
it's laying up late at night.

636
00:35:58,770 --> 00:36:01,970
How am I going to reach this
child and and how do we break

637
00:36:01,970 --> 00:36:05,050
contention or someone's not
talking how do we you know.

638
00:36:05,130 --> 00:36:08,650
Anyway, reality of really
working through a relationship.

639
00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:11,290
Right.
And and I think sometimes we

640
00:36:11,290 --> 00:36:14,130
have the same thing with church
history, where we're like, oh,

641
00:36:14,130 --> 00:36:18,250
yes, well, it was hard.
The Pioneers are, you know,

642
00:36:18,690 --> 00:36:21,970
freezing fingers and toes to
build the Salt Lake Temple.

643
00:36:21,970 --> 00:36:25,970
They're walking across the
plains but actually realizing,

644
00:36:25,970 --> 00:36:28,610
yes, but they're people and
their families.

645
00:36:28,610 --> 00:36:32,090
So what's the dynamic when a
husband and wife are struggling

646
00:36:32,090 --> 00:36:33,410
and they're walking across the
plains?

647
00:36:33,410 --> 00:36:36,890
What does that look like?
What is it actually like to be a

648
00:36:36,890 --> 00:36:40,260
young woman looking ahead and
losing your first three

649
00:36:40,260 --> 00:36:42,340
children?
So Helen Mark Kimball loses her,

650
00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:45,660
Her first child is stillborn,
Born stillborn.

651
00:36:45,660 --> 00:36:49,820
The second child dies a few days
after birth, and the third child

652
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:53,580
dies as well.
It's easy to say, oh, that's so

653
00:36:53,580 --> 00:36:56,010
hard, OK.
If you've been through that

654
00:36:56,010 --> 00:36:58,050
experience, you're going to have
a different perspective.

655
00:36:58,050 --> 00:37:00,810
You're going to know these are
the emotions you're feeling.

656
00:37:00,810 --> 00:37:03,570
This is the the struggle.
This is what's going through

657
00:37:03,570 --> 00:37:07,970
your mind mentally or when
you're actually making the

658
00:37:07,970 --> 00:37:10,050
sacrifices.
You know when Joseph Smith dies,

659
00:37:10,050 --> 00:37:14,370
Helen Mark Kimball talks about
it's those key families after

660
00:37:14,370 --> 00:37:18,050
Joseph Smith dies that had to
rally together to finish the

661
00:37:18,050 --> 00:37:25,490
Navi temple to bring the church
together in a in a in the, you

662
00:37:25,490 --> 00:37:27,690
know the the government of Navi
is being attacked.

663
00:37:27,690 --> 00:37:31,090
It's the mobbers are coming,
there's dissent, there's

664
00:37:31,090 --> 00:37:33,810
friction.
I mean they had a rally together

665
00:37:33,810 --> 00:37:36,530
to do that work and you know
what that looks like It's the

666
00:37:36,530 --> 00:37:41,010
same way you rally together as a
family to get a job done or to

667
00:37:41,010 --> 00:37:43,690
pay the bills.
It requires effort and it

668
00:37:43,890 --> 00:37:46,770
requires work.
So I guess what I'm trying to

669
00:37:46,770 --> 00:37:51,850
say is I I went into it
expecting a little bit more of

670
00:37:51,850 --> 00:37:54,400
the.
So these are people I'm not

671
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,600
going to really relate to on the
really individual and personal

672
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,200
things.
Like I can relate to their faith

673
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:04,520
and I relate to their beliefs,
but I can.

674
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,160
I really relate to the thoughts
that are going through their

675
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,660
mind.
And as I got to know Helen Mark

676
00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:13,500
Kimball, I remember reading her
widow journals and there were

677
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:17,060
some experiences that she had
and I was thinking, I've had

678
00:38:17,060 --> 00:38:19,380
these same experiences, but I
thought no one else had.

679
00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:22,940
And she was open and transparent
about what that was like.

680
00:38:23,340 --> 00:38:26,740
She struggled with chronic
illness and I have struggled

681
00:38:26,740 --> 00:38:30,380
with chronic illness as well.
And so reading her journals and

682
00:38:30,380 --> 00:38:33,980
her talking about what that was
like and laying awake at night

683
00:38:33,980 --> 00:38:37,990
and in pain and and her a lot of
the things that she wrote, she

684
00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:41,110
literally was just mustering all
of the strength that she had

685
00:38:41,550 --> 00:38:44,030
just to write.
She's writing through tears.

686
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:49,670
And I realized, wait, I didn't
realize it was like that for

687
00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:52,790
them.
That may sound stupid, but I

688
00:38:52,870 --> 00:38:57,350
just hadn't connected that and
what that gave me the strength.

689
00:38:57,390 --> 00:39:01,710
Or is realizing OKI go through
the same thing?

690
00:39:02,110 --> 00:39:05,420
So many of the books that I've
written, let's use the Helen

691
00:39:05,420 --> 00:39:09,300
Mark Kimball book as an example.
I started it before my dad

692
00:39:09,300 --> 00:39:13,460
passed away and so before and
before he got sick.

693
00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:16,900
So he passed away in 2021 of
stage 4 lung cancer.

694
00:39:17,420 --> 00:39:21,380
And there were a lot of chapters
that I was writing at 2:00 in

695
00:39:21,380 --> 00:39:26,260
the morning during my shift,
taking care of him.

696
00:39:26,660 --> 00:39:31,740
And I would be reading about her
struggles and her like it.

697
00:39:31,780 --> 00:39:34,690
It just it was.
It was, but I was reading about.

698
00:39:34,690 --> 00:39:38,650
She had a 16 year old daughter
who passed away with some of the

699
00:39:38,650 --> 00:39:41,330
symptoms that I had seen my dad
suffer through.

700
00:39:41,850 --> 00:39:46,570
That was hard for me to read her
talking about that, let alone

701
00:39:46,570 --> 00:39:50,210
then write it into her story.
Because I had been there.

702
00:39:50,850 --> 00:39:53,730
I knew what it's like to hold
someone who's struggling to

703
00:39:53,730 --> 00:39:55,850
breathe.
I know what that feels like.

704
00:39:55,850 --> 00:39:58,530
I know what it's like to watch
someone pass away in front of

705
00:39:58,530 --> 00:40:00,970
your eyes.
It's not like the movies.

706
00:40:01,380 --> 00:40:06,940
It's a very real experience and
and reading her so I'm literally

707
00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:11,500
writing her story as I'm walking
through some of the things that

708
00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:15,740
she's walked through and it gave
me that perspective of you.

709
00:40:15,740 --> 00:40:17,060
This is how you get through it
with faith.

710
00:40:17,420 --> 00:40:20,070
This is how this is what it
really looks like.

711
00:40:20,070 --> 00:40:21,710
This is what discipleship is
like.

712
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:25,550
It's not just this oh happy
story and it's easy and we're

713
00:40:25,550 --> 00:40:27,790
not even easy, but it's hard.
And there's these challenges,

714
00:40:27,790 --> 00:40:30,070
but we get through it.
It's very much real life.

715
00:40:30,070 --> 00:40:32,430
It's not sensationalistic, it's
not drama.

716
00:40:32,430 --> 00:40:38,110
There's no soundtrack playing as
you do works of faith.

717
00:40:38,230 --> 00:40:42,180
It's just it's a lot of grit.
That's a lot of tenacity.

718
00:40:42,180 --> 00:40:44,060
But anyway, I hope that's making
sense.

719
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:47,060
I'm trying to figure out.
How to translate into words?

720
00:40:47,260 --> 00:40:48,500
Right.
That is, that is.

721
00:40:48,580 --> 00:40:52,500
And and I'm going to ask a
question here and if it's

722
00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:54,820
something you don't want to
answer, just feel free to tell

723
00:40:54,820 --> 00:40:59,900
me to shut the pie hole.
But real quick as you're going

724
00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:03,580
through this with your dad and
you're you're reading about

725
00:41:03,580 --> 00:41:06,020
Helen, Mark Kimball, or you're
writing about her and and you're

726
00:41:06,020 --> 00:41:12,330
seeing that there are some.
Some striking parallels with

727
00:41:12,330 --> 00:41:15,130
what she had to deal with, with
what you're dealing with.

728
00:41:16,090 --> 00:41:19,210
Did you feel like you kind of
developed a relationship with

729
00:41:19,210 --> 00:41:23,170
her to a certain extent where,
and I know that may sound kind

730
00:41:23,170 --> 00:41:27,410
of silly, but did you, did you
find that that you could

731
00:41:27,410 --> 00:41:30,530
identify and maybe even have
kind of of a relationship with

732
00:41:30,530 --> 00:41:32,250
someone who's on the other side
of the veil?

733
00:41:33,250 --> 00:41:35,970
No.
Absolutely, absolutely.

734
00:41:36,010 --> 00:41:41,380
And it just gave me that.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

735
00:41:41,380 --> 00:41:44,260
Renegade podcast?
Well, good news, we're on

736
00:41:44,260 --> 00:41:46,700
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

737
00:41:46,700 --> 00:41:48,900
from.
The first one, the Slightly

738
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:52,140
rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

739
00:41:52,140 --> 00:41:54,100
those pesky commercials getting
in the way.

740
00:41:54,540 --> 00:41:57,460
For those who want a slightly
more indepth experience, there's

741
00:41:57,460 --> 00:42:00,380
the Stirring It Up package,
where you can hear ad free

742
00:42:00,380 --> 00:42:03,140
audio, ad free video and
transcripts.

743
00:42:03,620 --> 00:42:06,020
Finally, for those who want to
go full Renegade.

744
00:42:06,460 --> 00:42:09,140
That package is available to
where you can get everything in

745
00:42:09,140 --> 00:42:12,940
the previous two packages, plus
an extra show where myself and

746
00:42:12,940 --> 00:42:16,500
Ben Winfield break down the news
of the day from a very Mormon

747
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:18,940
point of view.
You will also get exclusive

748
00:42:18,940 --> 00:42:22,700
access to Renegade chat, and on
there you'll be able to talk to

749
00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:25,220
others about the show or
whatever topics are on your

750
00:42:25,220 --> 00:42:28,060
mind.
Go to Patreon today and get your

751
00:42:28,060 --> 00:42:34,780
exclusive content.
It just gave me that sense of

752
00:42:35,340 --> 00:42:42,860
thinking, OK, she she played her
role and now here I am and I'm

753
00:42:43,100 --> 00:42:46,740
as you're as you're as you, as
you described it, you know, kind

754
00:42:46,740 --> 00:42:49,580
of developing this relationship,
being able to relate with her,

755
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:52,180
being able to feel connected at
a deeper level.

756
00:42:53,340 --> 00:42:56,180
It really actually gave me a
sense of okay.

757
00:42:56,740 --> 00:43:02,420
She played her role in history
and now here I am in my time, my

758
00:43:02,420 --> 00:43:05,570
generation.
What am I going to do to keep

759
00:43:05,570 --> 00:43:07,810
that legacy going?
Because this is what it looks

760
00:43:07,810 --> 00:43:10,810
like.
So she and other righteous women

761
00:43:10,810 --> 00:43:13,210
of her time kept the flame
alive.

762
00:43:13,770 --> 00:43:18,050
They passed it on.
Now it's my generation and it's

763
00:43:18,050 --> 00:43:21,170
my responsibility and other
women, it's our responsibility

764
00:43:21,170 --> 00:43:24,690
to keep that legacy going.
So not just a connection as, oh,

765
00:43:24,690 --> 00:43:28,210
we've gone through similar
things, but we're all trying to

766
00:43:28,210 --> 00:43:32,560
keep the same torch alive.
And they're no longer here to do

767
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,320
it, but they did their role and
they've handed it off to us.

768
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,200
Now we've got to keep it going
and then to the next generation.

769
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,200
That was something I remember
thinking a lot about, just

770
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,160
because Helen R Kimble, the best
way to describe her actually is

771
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,120
the most important thing to her
in her life was, I think being a

772
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,680
mother, when you actually read
her journal, that's what she's

773
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,040
thinking about.
That's what she's matters to her

774
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,680
more than anything else is her
children.

775
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,680
And it really got me thinking,
okay, how do we raise righteous

776
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,400
children?
How do we We've got to get back

777
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,400
to the point to where our homes
are raising profits and profit.

778
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,280
Tesses.
That was the vision of the

779
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,920
restoration early on.
It was to be a mother.

780
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,520
And Zion doesn't just mean oh,
you're going to be a righteous

781
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,990
mother.
It means are you capable of God

782
00:44:22,110 --> 00:44:25,630
sending a son or a daughter to
your home that have those gifts

783
00:44:25,630 --> 00:44:29,110
of the spirit that have, that
can build Zion?

784
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:33,310
And then that raised questions
in my mind of like, OK, well,

785
00:44:33,310 --> 00:44:35,310
what does that look like and how
do we do that?

786
00:44:35,390 --> 00:44:37,830
And that's a journey.
To be honest, I'm still on that

787
00:44:37,830 --> 00:44:40,070
journey.
I'm trying to study it out, and

788
00:44:40,070 --> 00:44:42,350
I want to learn more.
But it sends you in this deeper

789
00:44:42,350 --> 00:44:46,110
dive of like, OK, they started
this journey of the restoration.

790
00:44:46,110 --> 00:44:48,390
We've got to keep it going.
Here's where I'm at.

791
00:44:48,510 --> 00:44:52,010
How do I do my part to pass it
on to the next generation?

792
00:44:52,770 --> 00:44:55,370
Perfect.
Without giving too much away of

793
00:44:55,370 --> 00:44:57,850
the book, because I'm a
capitalist, and if we give too

794
00:44:57,850 --> 00:45:00,450
much away here, I no one's going
to buy the book.

795
00:45:00,450 --> 00:45:04,170
So I want to be careful here.
As we talked about a few things,

796
00:45:05,850 --> 00:45:09,370
what do we get?
The sense of the relationship

797
00:45:09,370 --> 00:45:11,770
between Joseph Smith and Helen
Mark Kimball.

798
00:45:13,210 --> 00:45:15,330
What was that like?
What was that dynamic?

799
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,680
Right.
So one of the keys to understand

800
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,520
is her her relationship with
Joseph Smith is a little

801
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,920
different than Eliza R Snow,
Mary Elizabeth Rawlins,

802
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,400
Lightner, some others that had a
closer relationship with Joseph

803
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,120
Smith, or it was more of a
marriage.

804
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:39,840
So in Helen or Kimball's sense,
as far as we know, and based on

805
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,840
the records, it was never
consummated.

806
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,120
She never lived with Joseph
Smith.

807
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:49,390
It was a ceiling with the view
of eventually one day in the

808
00:45:49,390 --> 00:45:53,310
future she would be become his
wife.

809
00:45:54,070 --> 00:45:58,350
And and there's a whole we we go
into the whole story like how

810
00:45:58,350 --> 00:46:00,230
did that happen?
What are the conversations that

811
00:46:00,230 --> 00:46:03,710
took place And and we addressed
some of the questions that

812
00:46:03,710 --> 00:46:08,510
critics raise of why would she
do this and was she capable at

813
00:46:08,510 --> 00:46:10,870
14 of even making a choice like
this.

814
00:46:11,870 --> 00:46:14,270
And I think when you actually
get into the details, it's

815
00:46:14,270 --> 00:46:16,070
actually extremely faith
promoting.

816
00:46:17,410 --> 00:46:21,370
But like you said, that's such a
huge subject.

817
00:46:21,370 --> 00:46:24,250
It's like how do you tackle that
other than I'd say go read the

818
00:46:24,250 --> 00:46:27,770
book, get into the details
because it I think it answers

819
00:46:27,770 --> 00:46:29,130
all the questions and the
doubts.

820
00:46:29,130 --> 00:46:34,610
But so her relationship with
Joseph Smith is definitely one

821
00:46:34,610 --> 00:46:38,250
of a respect but you definitely
see it develop more I think

822
00:46:38,290 --> 00:46:44,530
after he dies, which is
interesting as she as she

823
00:46:44,530 --> 00:46:47,290
develops her own relationship
with God.

824
00:46:47,650 --> 00:46:52,130
I mean she talks about this how
at first everything from her,

825
00:46:53,850 --> 00:46:56,210
her, from her belief in God is
she.

826
00:46:56,210 --> 00:47:00,010
She always, it seems like she
always knew that God was real

827
00:47:00,050 --> 00:47:04,370
and she felt this connection of
wanting to be part of his

828
00:47:04,650 --> 00:47:08,490
Keenum, but also this hesitancy
of I don't know if it's really

829
00:47:08,490 --> 00:47:12,810
in me to pay that price.
So she's so excited to get

830
00:47:12,810 --> 00:47:15,690
baptized at 8 years old.
She's just she goes into the

831
00:47:15,690 --> 00:47:23,570
freezing, freezing, frigid
winter pond or water area where

832
00:47:23,570 --> 00:47:26,050
she was baptized.
But she says she was so excited

833
00:47:26,050 --> 00:47:28,970
to do it and she just it was a
memorable experience.

834
00:47:29,730 --> 00:47:33,850
She's she's the one that has the
experience that her father talks

835
00:47:33,850 --> 00:47:37,370
about in the school of the
Prophets in Kirtland where she

836
00:47:37,370 --> 00:47:42,510
broke some of her mother's
dishes and her mom had said she

837
00:47:42,510 --> 00:47:46,910
was going to whip her.
And so Helen goes out into under

838
00:47:46,910 --> 00:47:49,630
a tree or whatever and she just
prays to God and she's like God

839
00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:53,070
please change soften my mother's
heart so that she will not whip

840
00:47:53,070 --> 00:47:57,830
me when she comes home.
And and her and she just had so

841
00:47:57,830 --> 00:48:00,270
much faith she was like God's
going to answer this prayer And

842
00:48:00,270 --> 00:48:03,110
her mom came home and her mom
was like okay yeah.

843
00:48:03,110 --> 00:48:06,510
I won't fulfill like what I said
I was going to do.

844
00:48:06,510 --> 00:48:10,120
And and it's this it I'm
butchering the story.

845
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:15,360
See I read like the exact but
but the the sense is that Helen

846
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:20,760
has this deep sense of faith
which I think is unique to her,

847
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:25,200
just childlike faith from a
young age of being able to be

848
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,080
like I don't understand this.
I'm struggling or I don't know

849
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:33,090
if this is me, but being able to
take that step of faith, and

850
00:48:33,090 --> 00:48:36,530
that's the same step of faith
that she has to take in Missouri

851
00:48:36,610 --> 00:48:38,890
with the persecutions.
The same step of faith as her

852
00:48:38,890 --> 00:48:41,370
family is trying to make
sacrifices to do missionary

853
00:48:41,370 --> 00:48:43,010
work.
And then the step of faith.

854
00:48:43,010 --> 00:48:48,850
Of course I'm being sealed to
Joseph Smith saying I don't

855
00:48:48,850 --> 00:48:52,690
really understand this.
I don't completely know how I

856
00:48:52,690 --> 00:48:57,660
feel about this, but being able
to take that step and we and we

857
00:48:57,660 --> 00:49:00,180
and we, we go into the book.
She talks a little bit about why

858
00:49:00,180 --> 00:49:04,700
she took that step, what were
the reasons and what led her to

859
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:10,220
make that conclusion for herself
but into her years.

860
00:49:10,540 --> 00:49:13,780
Over the next several years, she
really goes through this phase

861
00:49:13,860 --> 00:49:16,100
of losing a child in winter
quarters.

862
00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:22,260
So after Joseph Smith dies she
marries Horace Whitney and her

863
00:49:22,260 --> 00:49:27,350
first baby is born stillborn.
She buries him in winter

864
00:49:27,350 --> 00:49:30,310
quarters.
She's very, very sick with

865
00:49:30,310 --> 00:49:34,750
scurvy and and she talks about
that and what that was like and

866
00:49:34,870 --> 00:49:38,190
and being around the other women
as they're beginning to

867
00:49:38,190 --> 00:49:41,950
experience powerful spiritual
gifts and visions and prophecy

868
00:49:41,950 --> 00:49:43,790
and things like that that were
happening in winter quarters.

869
00:49:43,790 --> 00:49:46,590
That's that's one of my favorite
chapters in the book, probably

870
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:49,510
are is the women's experiences
and Winter quarters.

871
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:53,540
Just incredible?
But she's coming across the

872
00:49:53,540 --> 00:49:56,260
plains.
She really just gives up the

873
00:49:56,260 --> 00:49:58,420
will to live.
This is too hard.

874
00:49:58,740 --> 00:50:02,380
This is when she loses her
second child that dies a few

875
00:50:02,380 --> 00:50:07,780
days after she's born and she
just gives up.

876
00:50:08,020 --> 00:50:10,140
She's sick.
She's naturally.

877
00:50:11,060 --> 00:50:13,980
She she was naturally.
Someone who struggled with

878
00:50:13,980 --> 00:50:17,880
physical strength, so she was
naturally really more delicate

879
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,040
and just coming across the
plains losing her first two

880
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,320
kids.
You can just imagine not having

881
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,520
a stable home and you're only
I'm sure remember how old she

882
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:33,720
was at this time, 1819, I don't
think quite 20, but so she's

883
00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:37,480
very young and she just gives up
the will to live.

884
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,880
This is too hard and I think
some of us have been there.

885
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:48,480
Where it's not necessarily where
you, you hate your life or you,

886
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,680
you know are just so depressed
or hate yourself.

887
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:58,160
It's just this is too hard.
Why don't why would you just not

888
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,880
want to go to a place of rest
and peace and and just there's

889
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:06,740
nothing here this life is not
not great to stick around and

890
00:51:06,740 --> 00:51:10,420
she loses that strength and and
and her family is gathered

891
00:51:10,420 --> 00:51:14,220
around her and she's dying.
She's literally dying and she

892
00:51:14,220 --> 00:51:20,660
goes into this state where she
has an experience that the best

893
00:51:20,660 --> 00:51:23,580
way I can describe it is like an
album of the younger experience.

894
00:51:23,740 --> 00:51:27,340
His being very different in the
sense of he was rebelling and

895
00:51:27,340 --> 00:51:31,670
trying to destroy the church and
and then he's in this contest

896
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:33,470
between light and darkness and
thoughts.

897
00:51:33,670 --> 00:51:36,070
He's got to repent.
Hers is a little different,

898
00:51:36,310 --> 00:51:40,150
where she's made all of these
sacrifices, she's tried so hard

899
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:42,790
and God is just stripping her,
stripping her, stripping her,

900
00:51:42,790 --> 00:51:45,230
stripping her, testing her,
testing her, proving her,

901
00:51:45,230 --> 00:51:47,910
proving her.
And she really comes into the

902
00:51:47,910 --> 00:51:53,470
state where she sees a contest
between light and darkness and

903
00:51:53,470 --> 00:51:56,110
God shows her things.
She doesn't go into a ton of

904
00:51:56,110 --> 00:51:58,430
detail, but she goes into enough
detail that you're like, wow,

905
00:51:58,510 --> 00:52:00,710
she went through some something
pretty profound.

906
00:52:01,270 --> 00:52:07,710
And she wakes up from that
experience a changed woman where

907
00:52:07,710 --> 00:52:11,310
she has to make a decision of.
And this is actually when she

908
00:52:11,310 --> 00:52:14,070
gains her testimony of floral
marriage, when she gains her

909
00:52:14,070 --> 00:52:16,310
testimony of other principles of
the gospel.

910
00:52:17,540 --> 00:52:19,820
And she comes out of this
experience having seen both

911
00:52:19,820 --> 00:52:23,100
sides, angels and the forces of
Lucifer.

912
00:52:23,660 --> 00:52:27,340
And now this is something that
some progressives have commented

913
00:52:27,340 --> 00:52:29,700
on it.
And they're like, OK, this just

914
00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:33,900
shows the mental state of these
women in the early Restoration.

915
00:52:33,900 --> 00:52:36,540
It's a psychic culture.
This is, this is word for word,

916
00:52:36,540 --> 00:52:37,740
right.
So this would be like Todd

917
00:52:37,740 --> 00:52:41,460
Compton in insacred loneliness.
Like the psychic culture.

918
00:52:41,940 --> 00:52:45,260
This is the kind of mental
illness that's created by the

919
00:52:45,260 --> 00:52:48,210
gospel.
And at that point you just have

920
00:52:48,210 --> 00:52:49,810
to decide.
And that's why I really feel

921
00:52:49,810 --> 00:52:51,970
like each person needs to read
it.

922
00:52:52,010 --> 00:52:53,970
And just like you read the book
Foreman, and you're going to

923
00:52:53,970 --> 00:52:57,810
have to decide, didn't if I
really saw what he saw, did

924
00:52:57,930 --> 00:53:03,090
Abraham really see what he saw?
Moses Joseph Smith, You have to

925
00:53:03,090 --> 00:53:06,990
decide and if you read Helen our
Kimball's testimony she's she

926
00:53:06,990 --> 00:53:10,790
explains her testimony that she
says this is what I saw and this

927
00:53:10,790 --> 00:53:13,790
is what I learned and this is my
testimony and you have to decide

928
00:53:13,790 --> 00:53:16,670
for yourself if you believe her.
But she comes out of this

929
00:53:16,670 --> 00:53:20,550
experience a changed person and
she gets that strength and that

930
00:53:20,550 --> 00:53:26,350
will to live again and she then
fast for an extended period.

931
00:53:26,590 --> 00:53:30,190
This is right after they're
they've arrived in Utah and it's

932
00:53:30,190 --> 00:53:35,040
New Year's Eve and she just has
this beautiful, comforting,

933
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,120
reborn being born of God
experience.

934
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,400
And she's reborn.
And that is when Helen takes a

935
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,600
turning point in her life.
Because you see from there on,

936
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,800
she's really a different woman
before.

937
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,840
She's a good woman, but she's
struggling to know if she what

938
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,880
she knows for herself, what
she's experienced, and then she

939
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,330
owns it.
And for a number of years, she's

940
00:53:59,330 --> 00:54:01,770
just a mother just trying to put
food on the table, raise

941
00:54:01,770 --> 00:54:04,850
children.
But then comes the point where

942
00:54:04,890 --> 00:54:07,810
there's all of these critics
that begin attacking Brigham

943
00:54:07,810 --> 00:54:10,570
Young, attacking the church,
attacking plural marriage.

944
00:54:11,010 --> 00:54:14,050
And Helen, Mark Kimball is one
of those women that just stands

945
00:54:14,170 --> 00:54:18,970
up like this incredible lioness
and just takes all of those men

946
00:54:18,970 --> 00:54:22,130
to town.
If there had to be a woman that

947
00:54:22,450 --> 00:54:26,830
just, she's just a Spitfire.
She's good at writing and she

948
00:54:26,830 --> 00:54:31,630
takes up that pen and she this
is actually one quote that I had

949
00:54:31,630 --> 00:54:33,950
in the book.
She, she, she just, she said

950
00:54:33,950 --> 00:54:36,990
that she just felt this call.
But the Lord was telling her,

951
00:54:36,990 --> 00:54:40,390
you've got to publish to the
world not only the principles of

952
00:54:40,390 --> 00:54:44,230
your faith, but a true history
of facts, The trials, the

953
00:54:44,230 --> 00:54:48,150
sufferings, the injustice done
to innocent people, publish them

954
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:51,590
on the housetops so that they
reach the ears of the just.

955
00:54:51,630 --> 00:54:56,090
And that's where she really
comes into her own, of really

956
00:54:56,090 --> 00:54:58,170
becoming a defender of the
faith.

957
00:54:58,170 --> 00:55:01,450
And anyway, so you see this
whole progression of a woman

958
00:55:01,450 --> 00:55:04,450
going from, I don't know what I
believe to knowing what she

959
00:55:04,450 --> 00:55:07,570
believes, but then becoming an
articulate defender of what she

960
00:55:07,570 --> 00:55:09,210
believes.
And those are three distinct

961
00:55:09,210 --> 00:55:14,130
phases, so.
If if we can, let's talk about

962
00:55:14,130 --> 00:55:17,930
when her her son dies by
suicide.

963
00:55:18,890 --> 00:55:20,930
And the reason I want to go
there is.

964
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:28,150
I know somebody personally right
now who is struggling with that.

965
00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:32,030
Fortunately it didn't get it
wasn't successful.

966
00:55:32,030 --> 00:55:36,790
It was able to be be stopped.
But as I I've talked to this

967
00:55:36,790 --> 00:55:39,590
person they are just beside
themselves, right?

968
00:55:39,590 --> 00:55:42,750
Like where did I go wrong?
What did I do?

969
00:55:42,790 --> 00:55:48,790
What what is happening And as as
I've looked out around the

970
00:55:48,790 --> 00:55:53,450
landscape of of the country.
At large, And and we're not

971
00:55:53,450 --> 00:55:59,170
immune as Mormons to this, the
adversary has ramped things up

972
00:55:59,170 --> 00:56:03,650
to a new world.
So what How did she get through

973
00:56:03,650 --> 00:56:05,730
that?
What what?

974
00:56:05,730 --> 00:56:07,730
What happened there?
Yes.

975
00:56:08,290 --> 00:56:15,330
So she has a son who was
battling some kinds of illnesses

976
00:56:15,330 --> 00:56:18,730
or other things like that and
and she gets the news that he

977
00:56:18,730 --> 00:56:21,250
has committed suicide and it was
successful.

978
00:56:21,570 --> 00:56:25,490
He's he's passed away and she, I
don't have the quotes right in

979
00:56:25,490 --> 00:56:27,330
front of me because I
unfortunately, I don't have the

980
00:56:27,330 --> 00:56:28,010
book.
But you're.

981
00:56:28,370 --> 00:56:30,970
Good.
She talks about how she's

982
00:56:31,130 --> 00:56:40,050
instantly hit with this deep
sense of horror and trauma, of

983
00:56:40,050 --> 00:56:41,970
wondering about those same
feelings.

984
00:56:41,970 --> 00:56:44,690
Where did I go wrong?
This is the end of my family.

985
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:49,560
Is my son damned forever or is
he what happened like or this

986
00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:55,640
kind of a lost feel And she goes
through this beautiful

987
00:56:55,640 --> 00:57:01,960
experience of gaining comfort of
and and she doesn't.

988
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,800
There's a lot of details we wish
we had right?

989
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:09,360
I'm not by no means do we have
everything but what we do have.

990
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:15,830
You do see that she gets the
sense that she comes to a place

991
00:57:15,830 --> 00:57:19,870
of peace where God helps her to
feel that in her son's case,

992
00:57:19,870 --> 00:57:21,590
everything was going to be
worked out.

993
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:27,550
But there were things going on
and and and she's able to come

994
00:57:27,550 --> 00:57:31,150
to that place with the Lord's
help of it's going to be okay.

995
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:33,030
In the end, everything's going
to be okay.

996
00:57:33,550 --> 00:57:39,150
But then she turns that
experience into the whole family

997
00:57:39,150 --> 00:57:41,510
is kind of shook up by this
experience.

998
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:50,730
So her other children and she,
you see this, she she turns her

999
00:57:50,730 --> 00:57:53,810
grief into good.
And I think we see that in all

1000
00:57:53,810 --> 00:57:58,050
of our lives or in the lives of
people in history, trauma and

1001
00:57:58,050 --> 00:58:02,050
negative experiences can either
destroy you or they can build

1002
00:58:02,050 --> 00:58:04,970
you into a better person.
And it's all based on how we

1003
00:58:04,970 --> 00:58:09,410
react and how we take them.
They can completely, OK, well,

1004
00:58:09,410 --> 00:58:13,640
they break all of us, right?
They break us into pieces, but

1005
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,640
do we rebuild from that?
And do we channel that

1006
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,120
experience into, OK, I'm going
to use this for good, or do we

1007
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:24,760
just allow it to destroy us?
And for Helen, she turns this

1008
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,000
experience and that whole family
does for good.

1009
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,520
So she talks about gathering the
family together and talking to

1010
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:32,240
them, OK, how are we going to do
better?

1011
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,120
How are we going to be more
united?

1012
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,360
How are we going to forgive one
another, create a better home

1013
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:41,880
environment of unity and peace
and and the spirit present?

1014
00:58:42,330 --> 00:58:46,090
And I really think you do see a
little bit of a shift in Helen

1015
00:58:46,090 --> 00:58:50,010
as a mother at this stage.
Most of her children are older

1016
00:58:50,010 --> 00:58:54,370
and grown at this point.
But you see her really stepping

1017
00:58:54,370 --> 00:58:58,410
into that role as a matriarch of
really rallying the family

1018
00:58:58,410 --> 00:59:02,850
together and and having picnics
and things like that where they

1019
00:59:02,850 --> 00:59:05,010
come together and they say, OK,
how are we going to keep the

1020
00:59:05,010 --> 00:59:06,650
Sabbath day holy?
How are we going to come

1021
00:59:06,650 --> 00:59:09,370
together and create almost like
a temple in this home.

1022
00:59:09,370 --> 00:59:12,610
But we're going to be united and
and at the same time she has a

1023
00:59:12,610 --> 00:59:16,970
daughter that is wanting to
marry a non member and she

1024
00:59:16,970 --> 00:59:20,050
doesn't even know about it till
she basically gets sprung on

1025
00:59:20,050 --> 00:59:21,450
her, the news that they're
engaged.

1026
00:59:21,450 --> 00:59:23,730
And she's like, what where did
this come from?

1027
00:59:23,730 --> 00:59:26,890
And absolutely not.
And then her son Orson kind of

1028
00:59:26,890 --> 00:59:29,050
talks her down and it's like,
look, she's going to do this.

1029
00:59:29,050 --> 00:59:33,890
So we got to how do we lead
without compulsory means like

1030
00:59:33,890 --> 00:59:36,730
DNC121.
How did this with long-suffering

1031
00:59:36,730 --> 00:59:40,050
and and patience and and just
wrestling through all of that.

1032
00:59:40,050 --> 00:59:43,770
And at the same time she has
really hard chronic illness

1033
00:59:43,770 --> 00:59:48,290
where she'll pass out and
extreme pain and she's laying on

1034
00:59:48,290 --> 00:59:52,810
the couch and in between little
bursts of energy, she's like

1035
00:59:52,890 --> 00:59:55,170
talking to her daughter and
she's like, please, like with

1036
00:59:55,210 --> 00:59:57,090
all of my soul, I'm just
pleading with you.

1037
00:59:57,090 --> 01:00:02,170
Keep the commandments, you know.
So what you see I think with

1038
01:00:02,170 --> 01:00:05,930
Helen is her turning to the Lord
for comfort.

1039
01:00:06,330 --> 01:00:12,310
No amount of.
Counseling or a trauma expert or

1040
01:00:12,310 --> 01:00:15,910
positive affirmations or vision
boards would have helped her

1041
01:00:15,910 --> 01:00:17,990
really get through that
experience.

1042
01:00:19,150 --> 01:00:21,390
So what she had to do is she had
to go to the Lord, and the Lord

1043
01:00:21,390 --> 01:00:24,350
had to give her insight and
revelation and healing, and then

1044
01:00:24,350 --> 01:00:27,670
she took that to actually make
her family stronger.

1045
01:00:27,750 --> 01:00:29,830
In the end anyway.
I don't know if that's kind of.

1046
01:00:30,270 --> 01:00:32,910
No, that that does that, that
answers that.

1047
01:00:33,630 --> 01:00:38,280
Did she ever become a target?
Because because you talked about

1048
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,880
her standing up and really
defending plural marriage when

1049
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:46,440
when they're coming hard after
Brigham in the church, does she

1050
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,120
ever become a target of any of
that criticism herself?

1051
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:55,680
I don't know if too much
directed specifically at her.

1052
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:58,840
Definitely.
She felt.

1053
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,880
She felt keenly, all of the
misrepresentation of women in

1054
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:08,630
general, the the kinds of lies
and slanders that we're going

1055
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:11,430
on.
She definitely.

1056
01:01:11,430 --> 01:01:14,830
I mean, that's hard.
That's hard to be looked on.

1057
01:01:16,310 --> 01:01:22,990
Speaking as a woman, the when
when you're when your virtue

1058
01:01:22,990 --> 01:01:25,070
matters more to you than
anything else.

1059
01:01:25,270 --> 01:01:35,230
It's extremely hard when critics
just liars and slanderers target

1060
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,240
those areas to demean you in
those ways of your character

1061
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:43,200
that matter more than anything.
And so in that sense, I do.

1062
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,840
I see that really striking A
chord for Helen.

1063
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:50,440
Where that's hurtful, it's
hurtful for these.

1064
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,160
You got to understand, these are
women that are not just like, Oh

1065
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,440
yeah, okay, where you, you know,
whatever.

1066
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:57,440
These are women that are
extremely chaste.

1067
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,400
These are women that hold to
virtue as more important than

1068
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,550
anything, and to be called to
live plural marriage and then

1069
01:02:05,550 --> 01:02:10,470
have people misrepresent that
around the culture as basically

1070
01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:14,230
it's a bunch of slime balls in
Utah and it's and it's

1071
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:18,430
oppressive and it's basically
this just horrify tyrant.

1072
01:02:18,430 --> 01:02:22,510
You know, all these women are
being oppressed and abused that

1073
01:02:22,630 --> 01:02:26,630
that was hard.
But at the same time, I don't

1074
01:02:26,630 --> 01:02:35,650
see her allowing that to warp
her in the way of making her

1075
01:02:35,650 --> 01:02:39,290
insecure about her beliefs.
She she seems pretty fearless

1076
01:02:39,330 --> 01:02:41,730
through it, which is actually
pretty incredible, because I

1077
01:02:41,730 --> 01:02:45,610
know personally it can be hard
sometimes when people lie and

1078
01:02:45,610 --> 01:02:51,970
slander about your name to then
not allow that to hurt you or

1079
01:02:52,210 --> 01:02:56,690
make you afraid of speaking out.
And for Helen, that's that's one

1080
01:02:56,690 --> 01:03:00,730
area that she's phenomenal.
She just stays the course.

1081
01:03:04,550 --> 01:03:12,070
During the research, let me ask
this, how does her life end?

1082
01:03:13,790 --> 01:03:17,070
When does she pass and and what
does her life look like?

1083
01:03:17,550 --> 01:03:26,710
As as that comes to a close,
Nothing too exciting.

1084
01:03:26,830 --> 01:03:36,340
So there's no dramatic finale,
but definitely just loved by her

1085
01:03:36,340 --> 01:03:39,420
family.
Her obituary is beautiful, just

1086
01:03:39,420 --> 01:03:41,140
talks about her incredible
character.

1087
01:03:41,140 --> 01:03:44,540
Everyone who knew her knew that
she was this person of stalwart,

1088
01:03:44,540 --> 01:03:49,900
stalwart character and
definitely with peace.

1089
01:03:50,100 --> 01:03:53,900
Like where you can tell she
she's not dying with regrets or

1090
01:03:53,900 --> 01:03:56,020
fear of death.
She's, she's confident.

1091
01:03:56,020 --> 01:03:59,540
She's ready to get on the other
side and meet Jesus Christ and

1092
01:03:59,540 --> 01:04:02,970
meet Joseph Smith and meet her
parents and you know meet those

1093
01:04:02,970 --> 01:04:04,810
people that had passed on before
her.

1094
01:04:06,850 --> 01:04:11,610
But I I actually close out with
this at the end of the book and

1095
01:04:11,610 --> 01:04:16,050
that is that Helen Mark
Kimball's story has not closed.

1096
01:04:16,690 --> 01:04:20,530
So and what I mean by that is
her.

1097
01:04:20,970 --> 01:04:24,490
Yes, when she passed away,
that's almost the middle of her

1098
01:04:24,490 --> 01:04:29,580
story because what Helen or
Kimball spent her entire life

1099
01:04:29,580 --> 01:04:33,820
building was a better
resurrection, a better, a better

1100
01:04:33,820 --> 01:04:37,620
future and and reaping all of
those rewards on the other side.

1101
01:04:37,660 --> 01:04:41,460
And that is something that is
really looked down on and

1102
01:04:41,460 --> 01:04:45,260
criticized in our world.
And I don't know what much to

1103
01:04:45,260 --> 01:04:48,900
say other than you're just going
to have to decide if you believe

1104
01:04:48,900 --> 01:04:53,050
in the Savior's command to lose
your life to save it, right?

1105
01:04:54,130 --> 01:04:57,770
Helen Mark Kimball did not reap
all of the blessings for the

1106
01:04:57,770 --> 01:05:02,690
sacrifices that she made in this
life, and she by no means died

1107
01:05:03,170 --> 01:05:07,210
destitute or friendless.
No, like her, her children were,

1108
01:05:07,450 --> 01:05:11,850
you know, gathered around her
good family, a beautiful

1109
01:05:11,850 --> 01:05:16,410
passing, but her true triumph.
I feel it's still to come.

1110
01:05:17,050 --> 01:05:20,270
And I close out with that in the
book of saying, you know, Helen

1111
01:05:20,270 --> 01:05:23,230
Mark Kimball's story is yet to
be finished, just like all of

1112
01:05:23,230 --> 01:05:27,030
us.
All of us are building a better

1113
01:05:27,030 --> 01:05:31,550
future for tomorrow.
And it's I honestly actually

1114
01:05:31,550 --> 01:05:35,830
look forward to the day of being
able to see that full, that full

1115
01:05:35,830 --> 01:05:38,910
triumph, that coming full circle
on Helen Mark Kimball's story.

1116
01:05:38,910 --> 01:05:43,830
Because you have to understand
these women to be sealed to

1117
01:05:43,830 --> 01:05:48,870
Joseph Smith was a huge
privilege and most of them saw

1118
01:05:48,870 --> 01:05:52,020
it that way.
And when I see most of them, I

1119
01:05:52,020 --> 01:05:55,820
don't mean that we have any that
are saying they didn't, but I

1120
01:05:55,820 --> 01:05:57,940
just don't have a specific quote
like to back it up.

1121
01:05:57,940 --> 01:06:00,820
So most of them, we have
testimonies where these women

1122
01:06:01,180 --> 01:06:04,460
recognize that it was not just a
personal decision, but it was

1123
01:06:04,460 --> 01:06:08,980
also a mission decision.
In other words, being a wife of

1124
01:06:08,980 --> 01:06:12,860
Joseph Smith meant an identity,
and it meant a mission, and it

1125
01:06:12,860 --> 01:06:16,300
meant a commitment that they had
a responsibility for, namely,

1126
01:06:16,380 --> 01:06:19,660
the spreading of the gospel and
the building of Zion and the

1127
01:06:19,660 --> 01:06:21,780
establishment of that
foundation.

1128
01:06:21,780 --> 01:06:24,820
And they and they lived for that
mission, and they lived to have

1129
01:06:24,820 --> 01:06:30,180
that accomplished and those
women that that restoration is

1130
01:06:30,180 --> 01:06:34,420
still to be fully realized.
Joseph Smith passed away, not

1131
01:06:34,420 --> 01:06:38,030
having finished his mission.
If you go read his patriarchal

1132
01:06:38,030 --> 01:06:41,750
blessings, if you go read
everything he's prophesied to

1133
01:06:41,750 --> 01:06:44,270
do, he still has that work to
finish.

1134
01:06:44,550 --> 01:06:46,830
Zion still needs to be built in
Missouri.

1135
01:06:47,390 --> 01:06:50,270
You're so far from it.
Sometimes it feels right.

1136
01:06:52,270 --> 01:06:53,830
So that work still needs to be
finished.

1137
01:06:53,830 --> 01:06:55,910
And you have to realize that
it's not just Joseph Smith's

1138
01:06:55,910 --> 01:07:00,350
work, but it's definitely his
family has a central, central

1139
01:07:00,350 --> 01:07:02,550
role in that and every single
one of those women.

1140
01:07:02,830 --> 01:07:08,610
So I feel like that the majority
of the story of these women is

1141
01:07:08,610 --> 01:07:12,610
actually yet to be told and yet
to be seen, because what does it

1142
01:07:12,610 --> 01:07:15,810
look like when they're actually
able to establish that Kingdom,

1143
01:07:15,810 --> 01:07:18,770
when they're actually able to
establish the millennial reign?

1144
01:07:19,530 --> 01:07:22,090
They'll be standing right there
with Joseph Smith to do that

1145
01:07:22,090 --> 01:07:25,970
work and I am excited to see
that personally.

1146
01:07:27,210 --> 01:07:29,010
You had some help right in the
book, right?

1147
01:07:30,290 --> 01:07:33,730
You had recently.
Oh yeah, yes, yes.

1148
01:07:34,110 --> 01:07:36,710
Not actually over 50 people
working on the book.

1149
01:07:36,710 --> 01:07:42,630
So everything from research,
help, editing, help people

1150
01:07:42,710 --> 01:07:47,750
reading the manuscript and
giving feedback, transcribing

1151
01:07:47,750 --> 01:07:50,230
documents.
It was really fun, which was

1152
01:07:50,230 --> 01:07:53,710
exciting because we actually had
it was primarily women that were

1153
01:07:53,710 --> 01:07:58,390
working on the book, but it was
fun to see some of them came

1154
01:07:58,390 --> 01:08:01,000
into the project.
You know, I'm not struggling

1155
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:02,320
with the subject.
Let's do this.

1156
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:07,000
Let's tell her story and others
okay, Plural marriage is really,

1157
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:10,960
really hard for me and I'm
freaked out of my mind and

1158
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:14,920
seeing every single woman that
worked on this project walked

1159
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:19,960
away a better person, stronger
in the faith and just inspired.

1160
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:25,770
We had a little luncheon kind of
celebrating that we finished the

1161
01:08:25,770 --> 01:08:28,050
book and everything after it was
finished.

1162
01:08:28,050 --> 01:08:32,130
This was last year, and it was
just so fun to talk to the

1163
01:08:32,130 --> 01:08:35,090
different women that were there
about their experiences, how

1164
01:08:35,090 --> 01:08:38,689
they were better people and how
it really challenged them to.

1165
01:08:39,330 --> 01:08:41,569
Again, it's not about plural
marriage.

1166
01:08:41,569 --> 01:08:46,790
It's about becoming true women
of God and true mothers and

1167
01:08:46,790 --> 01:08:48,270
Zion.
And that's what all those women

1168
01:08:48,270 --> 01:08:49,990
walked away from.
OK, how am I going to be a

1169
01:08:49,990 --> 01:08:51,710
better mother?
How am I going to be a better

1170
01:08:51,710 --> 01:08:52,870
wife?
How am I going to be a better

1171
01:08:53,430 --> 01:08:55,069
disciple of Christ in the state
and age?

1172
01:08:55,069 --> 01:08:57,510
And what does that look like?
And that is what I think Helen

1173
01:08:57,510 --> 01:09:01,470
Mark Kimball did for all of us
working on this book project.

1174
01:09:02,510 --> 01:09:08,710
It gave us the sense of, OK,
what does it mean to be a true

1175
01:09:08,710 --> 01:09:10,420
woman?
Where are we at?

1176
01:09:10,660 --> 01:09:15,060
And if you hear some direction
and inspiration to just kind of

1177
01:09:15,060 --> 01:09:17,540
step up to the next level.
Perfect.

1178
01:09:18,020 --> 01:09:20,979
I got three more questions and
then and then I'll let you go.

1179
01:09:20,979 --> 01:09:27,380
I know you're insanely busy.
What was what do you think the

1180
01:09:27,380 --> 01:09:32,100
most common misconception are
about Helen, Mark Kimball or any

1181
01:09:32,100 --> 01:09:35,500
of the wives of Joseph Smith?
What are those misconceptions?

1182
01:09:37,529 --> 01:09:43,450
No one sees them as women with
their own minds and their own

1183
01:09:43,450 --> 01:09:48,210
personalities, which I think is
really demeaning and devaluing,

1184
01:09:49,090 --> 01:09:52,729
especially since so many of the
progressives and the leftist

1185
01:09:52,770 --> 01:09:57,010
love to claim how they're
advocate advocates of women and

1186
01:09:57,010 --> 01:10:00,050
how they're advocates of women's
rights and women's voices.

1187
01:10:00,450 --> 01:10:03,930
And to be honest, I think
they're totally failing in that

1188
01:10:03,930 --> 01:10:07,890
regard.
Because these women's voices are

1189
01:10:07,890 --> 01:10:10,890
being devalued.
These women's voices are being

1190
01:10:10,890 --> 01:10:12,450
ignored.
They're being hashed up.

1191
01:10:13,090 --> 01:10:16,290
And you cannot understand the
story of the Restoration without

1192
01:10:16,290 --> 01:10:17,810
these women.
You can't.

1193
01:10:18,290 --> 01:10:22,090
You just, you can't.
And so I think that's the most

1194
01:10:22,090 --> 01:10:24,530
probably the primary
misconception is realizing, you

1195
01:10:24,530 --> 01:10:28,170
know, these are women that
didn't just get pushed into this

1196
01:10:28,170 --> 01:10:32,050
or pressured into this
lifestyle, this gospel, this

1197
01:10:32,050 --> 01:10:36,470
church, these are women who
chose it because of who they

1198
01:10:36,470 --> 01:10:38,710
were.
And you can disagree with that.

1199
01:10:38,990 --> 01:10:42,270
And you can say, oh, I think
that's crazy, that's fine.

1200
01:10:42,510 --> 01:10:46,790
But you have to realize they
made informed decisions that

1201
01:10:46,790 --> 01:10:51,790
they believed very strongly for
themselves as individuals to the

1202
01:10:51,790 --> 01:10:54,190
day that they died.
So you can disagree with them,

1203
01:10:54,190 --> 01:10:58,150
but you at least need to respect
them for making those choices

1204
01:10:58,150 --> 01:11:00,390
and that that's what they
personally believed.

1205
01:11:00,390 --> 01:11:06,210
And just, you know, just at
least admit the fact that these

1206
01:11:06,210 --> 01:11:08,890
women, that's what they wanted
and that they were there for

1207
01:11:08,890 --> 01:11:12,170
themselves.
And I think if they were here, I

1208
01:11:12,170 --> 01:11:14,410
definitely think that's a theme.
And Helen Mark Kimball's

1209
01:11:14,410 --> 01:11:18,530
writings is she says over and
over, this is me, this is my

1210
01:11:18,530 --> 01:11:21,970
choice, this is my testimony,
this is my voice.

1211
01:11:22,850 --> 01:11:25,890
And the reason why that's
important to understand is I

1212
01:11:25,890 --> 01:11:28,890
think it challenges all of us to
wonder where do we stand and do

1213
01:11:28,890 --> 01:11:32,490
we have a voice and do we know
what we believe and why?

1214
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,480
And if we don't, if we're
wavering in our testimony and

1215
01:11:37,480 --> 01:11:41,720
wavering in the gospel, let's
look at Helen's story and decide

1216
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:44,600
why was she so crazy to choose
this life?

1217
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:48,000
Like what kind of person in
their right mind would choose to

1218
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:51,520
live a life of hardship and
sacrifice and be happy about it?

1219
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:55,320
Like, what's wrong with her?
We'll go read her story and

1220
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:58,440
you'll see what's wrong with her
or what is so right about her?

1221
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:01,960
Because I can just bear my add
my testimony.

1222
01:12:03,440 --> 01:12:07,160
True joy.
True joy, true discovering of

1223
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:11,040
who you are in your yeah, just
who you really are.

1224
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:13,840
Your real personality comes
through developing that

1225
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,280
relationship with God and coming
to gain that testimony.

1226
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:21,040
And that's what she did.
How's the book been received, by

1227
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:22,600
and large?
I mean, have you had any

1228
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,720
pushback from anybody?
Did you did you row up the

1229
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:30,000
progressives?
Primarily positive actually.

1230
01:12:30,570 --> 01:12:34,450
So it's actually, I mean there's
always going to be those people

1231
01:12:34,450 --> 01:12:37,690
out there that hate anyone
that's basically defending

1232
01:12:37,690 --> 01:12:42,930
Joseph Smith and especially on
the subject it's very can be

1233
01:12:42,930 --> 01:12:49,730
sensitive but overall tons of
positive feedback just emails

1234
01:12:49,730 --> 01:12:52,570
written.
Just people saying thank you,

1235
01:12:52,970 --> 01:12:55,130
Helen.
Marr has changed my life.

1236
01:12:55,960 --> 01:12:57,760
I'm a better person because of
her.

1237
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:00,120
And so, yeah, overwhelmingly
positive.

1238
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:01,520
And I'm really grateful for
that.

1239
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:04,000
Very grateful.
Perfect.

1240
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:06,160
And then who you got on tap
next?

1241
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:11,440
Oh, OK, well, there, since we're
kind of working on the Book of

1242
01:13:11,440 --> 01:13:13,400
Mormon, there's no project in
the works.

1243
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:17,120
But when we do revisit this
series, it will be Elizarsno.

1244
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:21,000
So we're actually working on, we
are working on right now

1245
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:23,520
actually organizing all of her
teachings by topic.

1246
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:27,380
So that will be fun.
That's awesome.

1247
01:13:27,380 --> 01:13:29,340
These are phenomenal.
That's awesome.

1248
01:13:30,860 --> 01:13:35,620
Anything you want to leave with?
It's a good question.

1249
01:13:35,620 --> 01:13:37,740
Well, I've definitely been
talking your ear off here, so.

1250
01:13:37,900 --> 01:13:39,020
No, you're good.
You're good.

1251
01:13:39,260 --> 01:13:42,900
What?
What is it you hope people come

1252
01:13:42,900 --> 01:13:44,500
away with?
How's that?

1253
01:13:44,940 --> 01:13:48,140
What is it?
You hope that people when they

1254
01:13:48,140 --> 01:13:50,940
put down the book.
And my wife Tonya has has read

1255
01:13:50,940 --> 01:13:53,500
the book.
And I'll tell you what she.

1256
01:13:54,050 --> 01:13:58,330
Has said after after you get
give it here but but what's

1257
01:13:58,330 --> 01:14:01,090
what's your major hope that
people take away from from your

1258
01:14:01,090 --> 01:14:08,090
book yeah probably this.
So the story of the Restoration

1259
01:14:08,090 --> 01:14:14,410
is a story of a family uniting
together to do a work, and that

1260
01:14:14,410 --> 01:14:17,930
family included Joseph Smith's
parents, Lucy Max Smith and

1261
01:14:17,930 --> 01:14:21,170
Joseph Smith senior.
It included his first wife,

1262
01:14:21,170 --> 01:14:24,560
Emma, but it also included these
other women.

1263
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:28,960
And these women need to be
recognized as family members,

1264
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:33,520
but also recognizing that the
work or the Restoration then was

1265
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:37,480
not just a bunch of people who
united together but it was a

1266
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:44,200
family, an extended family that
came together to lay down their

1267
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:48,540
lives for hope to be restored to
the world.

1268
01:14:48,540 --> 01:14:51,220
You know, if you go read the
Joseph Smith translation of

1269
01:14:51,220 --> 01:14:54,300
Genesis 50 when Joseph of Egypt
is translating about the

1270
01:14:55,060 --> 01:14:58,300
prophesying sorry about the
mission of Joseph Smith.

1271
01:14:58,300 --> 01:15:02,220
He makes it clear the mission of
Joseph Smith was to restore the

1272
01:15:02,260 --> 01:15:06,220
word of God to bring deliverance
from captivity.

1273
01:15:06,620 --> 01:15:10,140
The Lord Joseph of Egypt looked
down and he saw his posterity.

1274
01:15:10,500 --> 01:15:13,900
And the Lord is looking down
today and he is seeing so much

1275
01:15:13,900 --> 01:15:19,380
brokenness and so much hurt and
pain and suffering beyond

1276
01:15:19,380 --> 01:15:22,140
belief.
You know, as we sit here,

1277
01:15:22,500 --> 01:15:25,260
countless men, women and
children are being tortured, are

1278
01:15:25,260 --> 01:15:30,100
being abused, are being
trafficked, are being personally

1279
01:15:30,100 --> 01:15:34,100
enslaved, just in anxiety and
depression and hopelessness.

1280
01:15:34,100 --> 01:15:36,340
There is so much suffering in
our world.

1281
01:15:36,860 --> 01:15:40,540
What is the solution to that?
And if you look into the

1282
01:15:40,540 --> 01:15:43,700
Scriptures and if you look at
Joseph Smith's life, they

1283
01:15:43,700 --> 01:15:46,380
testify that the solution of
that is the word of God.

1284
01:15:46,380 --> 01:15:49,620
And So what you see with the
Restoration is Joseph Smith came

1285
01:15:50,060 --> 01:15:54,100
and his family united with him
to say we're willing to lay down

1286
01:15:54,100 --> 01:15:58,780
our lives, we're willing to
suffer and sacrifice so that our

1287
01:15:58,780 --> 01:16:02,540
brothers and sisters can have
hope and find freedom again.

1288
01:16:03,060 --> 01:16:06,340
And so when you look at these
women, these are women that lay

1289
01:16:06,340 --> 01:16:09,220
down their lives because of a
mission that came from that

1290
01:16:09,220 --> 01:16:15,630
family and from that identity.
And I feel like just as kind of

1291
01:16:15,630 --> 01:16:20,670
just final words, that mission
did not stop with them.

1292
01:16:21,230 --> 01:16:27,870
That mission is very, very real
today and needed more now than

1293
01:16:27,870 --> 01:16:32,630
it was even back then because.
And This is why Joseph Smith's

1294
01:16:32,630 --> 01:16:35,030
character is under attack.
This is why these women are

1295
01:16:35,030 --> 01:16:38,310
under attack.
It's really an attack on Jesus

1296
01:16:38,310 --> 01:16:41,950
Christ and an attack on the
gathering of Israel and on the

1297
01:16:42,070 --> 01:16:45,110
an attack on hope being restored
to the world.

1298
01:16:45,430 --> 01:16:48,790
The adversary has a good grip on
things and he doesn't really

1299
01:16:48,790 --> 01:16:54,030
want to lose his territory.
And so as we as each of us sit

1300
01:16:54,030 --> 01:16:57,150
down, you know, if if someone
reads the book and walks away

1301
01:16:57,150 --> 01:17:00,430
thinking, oh wow, Helen Mark
Kimball was so amazing, that

1302
01:17:00,430 --> 01:17:03,790
just really inspires me and and
great and then puts the book on

1303
01:17:03,790 --> 01:17:06,070
the shelf and walks away and
goes back to their life.

1304
01:17:06,710 --> 01:17:11,930
I feel that I have failed.
But my hope is is that someone

1305
01:17:11,930 --> 01:17:15,650
will read this book and feel
that calling inside of

1306
01:17:15,650 --> 01:17:22,090
themselves to stand up and to do
their part in carrying that

1307
01:17:22,130 --> 01:17:25,970
message of the gospel forward.
What sacrifices is the Lord

1308
01:17:25,970 --> 01:17:28,330
asking you to make?
What is your role in this?

1309
01:17:28,330 --> 01:17:30,410
What is your testimony?
What is your witness?

1310
01:17:30,650 --> 01:17:33,410
Because we need more than ever
before.

1311
01:17:34,130 --> 01:17:37,740
We need, you know, the 10
virgins are sleeping.

1312
01:17:38,220 --> 01:17:43,020
All ten of them are fast asleep.
Hebrewsy Kimball talked about

1313
01:17:43,020 --> 01:17:46,740
Joseph's boys being asleep, but
that God would wake them up and

1314
01:17:46,740 --> 01:17:49,580
they would stand up and they
would war like the thunders of

1315
01:17:49,580 --> 01:17:52,660
Mount Sinai.
We're at a crisis point.

1316
01:17:52,660 --> 01:17:54,780
We're at a turning point in the
history of the world.

1317
01:17:54,780 --> 01:17:57,580
I feel like right now, where
we're deciding which way are we

1318
01:17:57,580 --> 01:18:02,180
going to go.
Right now is a decisive moment,

1319
01:18:02,260 --> 01:18:06,930
and we need every single one of
us to get down on our knees and

1320
01:18:06,930 --> 01:18:10,090
find out who we are.
Helen figured out who she was.

1321
01:18:10,530 --> 01:18:14,130
She figured out her identity.
She figured out her where she

1322
01:18:14,130 --> 01:18:19,010
fit her place, her family, and
that mission that came with that

1323
01:18:19,010 --> 01:18:21,210
family.
Every single one of us has to go

1324
01:18:21,210 --> 01:18:24,290
on that same journey and then
stand up and do it.

1325
01:18:24,690 --> 01:18:29,690
Stand up and to speak and speak
and carry the gospel to the

1326
01:18:29,690 --> 01:18:32,450
world, and every single one of
us is needed.

1327
01:18:32,850 --> 01:18:36,840
And I think that's those are my
last words, that's my plea.

1328
01:18:37,440 --> 01:18:38,960
That's hopefully the mission of
the book.

1329
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:43,600
Well, look, and I'm only going
to speak for my family here on

1330
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:51,720
this mission accomplished.
So, and if you're uncomfortable

1331
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:53,320
with this part, I can edit it
out later.

1332
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:58,400
Both of my wives read that book
and they read it together and

1333
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:01,320
they were used to me spouting at
the lip on the microphone.

1334
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:04,240
That would just kind of came
with the territory, but.

1335
01:19:04,580 --> 01:19:10,340
They they read the book and
there were two things that stuck

1336
01:19:10,340 --> 01:19:13,740
out to me, Amber said.
It's a grind.

1337
01:19:14,540 --> 01:19:18,460
It's always going to be a grind.
Her life shows that, and that's

1338
01:19:18,460 --> 01:19:19,860
what we're going to do.
We're going to grind.

1339
01:19:20,820 --> 01:19:24,820
That's that's just what it is,
Tanya told me.

1340
01:19:24,820 --> 01:19:27,460
She said Amber and I have to
become more vocal.

1341
01:19:28,140 --> 01:19:30,700
We have to stand up for true
principles.

1342
01:19:30,700 --> 01:19:33,060
It's not enough.
So.

1343
01:19:33,810 --> 01:19:36,010
Good on you, and I couldn't
agree with you more.

1344
01:19:36,010 --> 01:19:44,010
We we are at society as a whole.
Humanity as a as a whole is at a

1345
01:19:44,010 --> 01:19:46,530
tipping point, a time of
choosing.

1346
01:19:47,370 --> 01:19:53,050
I recently gave a talk at the
Torah conference where Where I

1347
01:19:53,050 --> 01:19:56,490
said I don't think.
I think we're in a place now

1348
01:19:56,490 --> 01:19:59,690
where where God's going to ask
more out of us than perhaps he's

1349
01:19:59,690 --> 01:20:05,180
ever asked out of anybody.
And and my talk was primarily on

1350
01:20:05,180 --> 01:20:07,860
on the Constitution in America's
role in scripture.

1351
01:20:08,500 --> 01:20:12,220
But in one hand we're going to
have to stand up for Godly

1352
01:20:12,220 --> 01:20:14,420
principles and in the other
we're going to have to defend

1353
01:20:14,420 --> 01:20:17,740
the Constitution because that's
just what our times call for.

1354
01:20:18,860 --> 01:20:23,420
But here's what gives me hope.
I see a lot of tremendous people

1355
01:20:24,300 --> 01:20:30,020
in in the LDS church and and
other Mormons groups.

1356
01:20:30,460 --> 01:20:36,790
Independence.
I, I, I see if you were born now

1357
01:20:36,790 --> 01:20:43,710
it's for a reason and you've got
to find your voice cuz no one

1358
01:20:43,710 --> 01:20:44,910
wants to hear from you that
much.

1359
01:20:45,270 --> 01:20:49,950
But regardless Hannah, it was
such a pleasure having you on

1360
01:20:49,950 --> 01:20:50,830
again.
Let's do it again.

1361
01:20:50,830 --> 01:20:53,030
All right.
Yes, absolutely and thank you.

1362
01:20:53,030 --> 01:20:54,670
Awesome.
Thanks for your words and I can

1363
01:20:54,670 --> 01:20:57,930
just say, you know.
Amen.

1364
01:20:58,050 --> 01:21:01,690
Because we need those voices to
stand up, and we need people to

1365
01:21:01,690 --> 01:21:03,770
stand up and their testimony
that they know.

1366
01:21:03,770 --> 01:21:05,490
That was what was powerful about
Helen.

1367
01:21:05,650 --> 01:21:08,170
She wasn't just bearing
testimony of what she believed,

1368
01:21:08,170 --> 01:21:11,530
but what she knew.
And every single one of us need

1369
01:21:11,530 --> 01:21:15,960
to say, as I can say myself.
I know Joseph Smith was a

1370
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:17,240
prophet.
I know he was a man of

1371
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:20,240
character.
I know that these principles

1372
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:22,800
will work.
If we'll just have enough faith

1373
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:26,680
to turn back to the scriptures
and back to this foundation, we

1374
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:28,840
can turn this mess around.
I know it.

1375
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:30,280
I know without a shadow of a
doubt.

1376
01:21:30,280 --> 01:21:33,320
And you can know it too.
So let's stand up.

1377
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:36,680
Let's build the Kingdom.
Let's bear it off to the

1378
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:38,480
nations.
Awesome.

1379
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:41,680
All right, That was great.
All right.

1380
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:42,440
Bye everybody.