Episode #80: Telling The True History Of Joseph Smith In Film/W David W. Patton &Michael Ness

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So no matter how you feel about
the events and persons the movie

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The sound of freedom is based
on, the fact remains that the

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movie did far better than what
was expected.

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I mean, it knocked off Indiana
Jones.

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Now couple that with the success
of the TV show The Chosen, and

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now we can see a pattern.
And that pattern is that society

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as a whole is starving for
quality entertainment of real

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spiritual substance.
Today on the podcast I have

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David W Patton and Michael Ness
on.

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Now if you remember about a year
ago I had David on the podcast.

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He's an independent filmmaker
who was starting the process of

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making a movie about Joseph
Smith.

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Well, the plans on that movie
have now changed a little bit

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and it will now be a six season
series with Michael Ness helping

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out to maintain and help ensure
historical accuracy.

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We talked about the state of the
mainstream film industry today.

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How these two men plan on making
a series about Joseph Smith that

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is historically accurate, the
blessings and challenges they

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have seen in the process, and
how you, the listener, can get

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involved to help the series get
made.

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Along the way in our
conversation we also talked

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about how storytelling is
important to society, the need

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for true history to be told, and
some pretty interesting tangents

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about the Prophet Joseph Smith.
And that's next on this episode

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of the Mormon Renegade podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse to become and

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raise men and women of virtue
and characters, a Herculean

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task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com.
Go to the bottom of the page.

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Search out the blog post and
order your copy today.

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I can bear personal testimony
from personal experience that

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this is an invaluable tool to
help you raise men and women of

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virtue and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade Podcast.
David Michael, thanks for being

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here, fellas.
Thank you, David.

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Thanks for having us.
I'm the odd one out here, but

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it's good to be with both of
you, David's.

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So what's cool is, is that
normally when I have this

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conversation with with either of
you, we've got you up from

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Missouri, right?
You're in Missouri.

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I'm here in Zoom.
Fortunately, things worked out

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just the right place so that you
guys were both here at the same

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time.
And.

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I I love this facetoface.
You can get a way better vibe

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than what you can over zoom
sometimes.

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So I'm, I'm super grateful
you're here.

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But anyway, so when we talked to
you last time, David, you were

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in the process of making the a
new film about Joseph Smith A

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series, right?
Correct.

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And where's that at right now?
It's evolved some.

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Originally it was going to be
short films, A series of short

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films or vignettes that are
little known stories about the

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life of Joseph Smith told from
the perspectives of people's

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journals.
And since since meeting with

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some people in the church, the
suggestion was hey, this will be

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a lot more effective as a full
on TV series.

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And after much prayer and
contemplation on the subject,

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I've decided that that's
probably the best way to

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actually capture the entire
arcing history of Joseph Smith

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and his ministry.
And so it is now going to be a

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six season TV series.
Six seasons.

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Correct.
Nice.

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Nice.
So is there a certain?

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Like Studio that you're going to
be able to do this through or

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are is this independent or?
It's independent for now.

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We're taking a very, I would
say, an approach that's been

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done before, like the chosen
did.

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The chosen.
What they did was they made a

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short film, roughly 20 minutes
long, about the birth of Jesus

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Christ from the perspective of a
poor shepherd.

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And what that short did, they
released it for free.

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And it allowed people to see
their abilities to fill as a

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filmmakers and they would
announce the TV series with that

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short film and mentioned that
they were now looking for for

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funding and they broke the
record for the largest

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crowdfunded project ever.
You know this is nuts and and I

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want to ask you about something
else here when I'm when I'm

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done, but this is just it.
This is showing that there is a

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hunger out there.
For this kind of programming or

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this kind of entertainment.
So I look no matter how you feel

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about him, the movie was good.
I haven't made-up my mind yet,

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but I I took my family on the
4th of July and we went and saw

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the sound of freedom.
Excellent.

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And it was a fantastic movie.
And then, come to find out, it's

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Brit.
It knocked off Indiana Jones.

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It It absolutely is killing it
still this weekend.

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But what disturbed me the most,
David, was when there there was

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like a little 2 minute thing
after the movie and in it Jim

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Caviezel, interestingly enough
the guy that played Jesus as

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well in Passion of the Christ.
He played Tim Ballard's part and

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he said, you know, this film sat
on the shelves for five years.

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And I being the guy I am, I
can't ever just leave anything

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alone.
So I came home, set off a bunch

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of fireworks.
I'm like, I got to get to the

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bottom of this.
What happened?

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So 21st Century Fox, I believe,
was the original studio that

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produced it.
Disney buys Fox and then Disney

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just shelves.
It just sits on it.

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Is that normal or you?
You worked in in Hollywood,

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right?
You were.

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You were there in the belly of
the beast.

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Is this normal?
So it is now.

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It has not always been, but it
is now.

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There is a certain type of
content that Hollywood wants to

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be released.
And I hate to put it bluntly,

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but I will the adversaries
behind it.

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And anything that we try to
release from a gospel

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perspective or from a liberty
and freedom perspective, they do

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not want it released.
There's there's some sick, dark

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stuff going on in Hollywood.
And they don't like the

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independent filmmaker.
Studios do not want to work with

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independent filmmakers at all,
because usually the content that

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they want to put out has some
degree of morality.

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Right.
And that's not in Hollywood's

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interest.
Right.

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That was what I was afraid of.
I was hoping because, you know,

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call me Pollyannish, but I was
really hoping, you know what,

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it's probably just.
It's probably just because they

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don't think it's going to make
enough money.

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But that makes me even more that
was my original thought was is

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that they they just didn't want
to want to release it.

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So is that something that's
always been there that that

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stuff of has that been your
primary experience is it always

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been one of those things where
they don't want to put out

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movies that.
Or content that is uplifting and

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spiritual in nature?
Or is this a recent development?

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It's not a recent development, I
kid you not.

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That started 90 years ago.
Really.

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Yeah.
I've done some extensive

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research on Hollywood's growth
and how much Nazi Germany

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influenced it back in the 1930s,
and how much Adolf Hitler

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himself sent two of his top
officials to America to

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immediately infiltrate
Hollywood.

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And start raising a ruckus
against Christian content,

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saying that Christian content
should not be in, should not be

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released because they're trying
to enforce their Christianity

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doctrines upon the populace and
that this should be for

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entertainment reasons only.
And they they raised quite a

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ruckus throughout the 30s and
and it was all stemmed from

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Hitler because he was well aware
that if you can control the

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media, you can control an entire
society.

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And his goal, his goal was to
rule the world absolutely.

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And and so that's where it
started, right?

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And they got better and better
and better over 90 years.

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You know, without.
OK, let me just get some tin

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foil real quick so I'm going to
put it on and you can slide that

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mic over to you if it's easier
for you to see my buttons

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bending over.
Oh.

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Yeah, there you go.
You don't have to keep bending

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over.
I was feeling bad made you made

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you look like you were crouched
over there too much.

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I'm like our guy's going to have
back problems by.

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The time we're he.
Already does.

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I like it Last last week?
No, the week before it was the

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week before the 4th of July as
an early Father's Day present.

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Shouldn't say early, she gave it
to me early, but.

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As a Father's Day present, my
wife got his tickets to go down

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and see to Saint George and see
the Glenn Beck Museum that he

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rolled in there.
And there's one particular room

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I did not like but felt it was
super important.

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And that was the modern
Progressive Era room.

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And what you had in there is you
had people like Margaret Sanger,

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the founder of Planned
Parenthood, and what she was

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responsible for.
You had things on propaganda,

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and here's the part that that
made me sick.

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I always thought it was a
invention of the Third Reich.

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Not so.
There is a letter that he had

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where from like the the people
in charge of the eugenics

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writing to the Human Betterment
Society, which was the eugenics

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program thanking them and
Margaret Sanger.

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For their work towards eugenics,
and that the furor took his his

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cues from them.
Likewise, I also discovered that

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there was a guy in America named
Bernays.

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Edward Bernays, I think his name
was who was the king of

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advertising.
When you get down to

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advertising, it's really nothing
more than propaganda.

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Right.
I mean, to a certain extent.

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And he was the guy who was
responsible for making bacon

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part of breakfast in the
morning.

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That was his big claim to fame.
Before that it was always toast

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and coffee and that out the door
you went and the the kind of the

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pork conglomerate came to him
and said hey, we need to sell

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more, more product.
He found a couple of doctors who

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were willing to say, you know,
this is healthy.

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And that's how it that's how how
it got happened.

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No, I'm not saying there's
anything wrong with bacon.

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What I'm saying is it.
Carried away, right?

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Mike's a big fan of bacon.
Right.

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So what I'm saying here is that
we've been guilty of this stuff

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ourselves, right.
And and we like to think that

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this started in Germany and then
we imported it, which is kind of

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true when you look at operation
paper clip, but.

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We were the guys who pioneered a
lot of this and so it it doesn't

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surprise me when you say this.
This comes from around World War

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Two that we see this.
The the other thing I'm noticing

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for perhaps the first time in
ever is just the outright evil

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that seems to be portrayed.
I mean people wearing.

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Satanic kind of masks during
major events, You know the

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halftime of the football show
and if there's one thing I will

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go to war over, it's my
football.

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So don't screw with that, right?
But but that's what I'm noticing

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is that the, the, the darker,
the darkness seems to be growing

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here a little bit and it seems
like and of course it would have

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to go into to our movies.
Oh, certainly I I would, I would

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say that is terrible and
horrific.

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A lot of that display is it's
not near as terrible and

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horrific as those that wear the
mask of morality and have a

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humble face, but deep down are
deceptive and manipulative and

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you know, teaching false
doctrines when they're believed

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to be great people.
And I think it's actually just a

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distraction, honestly.
I think Satan is deliberately

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using these people that are
willing to dress funny like that

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and and satanic.
To distract us, thinking that's

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the evil over there because of
how it looks.

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So if you look opposite of that,
then it's not evil.

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You see what I'm.
Saying.

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I I think it's deliberate by
Satan.

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I think he puts it into these
people's hearts and because they

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don't know how to discern
anything, they just go with it.

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But there are a lot of
deceptions.

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It was prophesied in our in our
day.

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Even Joseph Smith had prophesied
this, that in the last days

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there would be so many
deceptions.

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And unless you were filled with
spirit of God, what was it?

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The very elect, unless even the
very elect would be deceived.

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I'm, I'm relying on Mike to
correct me on some of this stuff

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because he he's better with this
quote and stuff.

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But yes, I definitely think that
it's a deliberate distraction.

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But I think that Hollywood in
particular, they just don't

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care.
They really don't care.

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They don't care about anything
but their own rule, which

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frankly stands back to Satan or
Lucifer.

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Man.
Let's let's talk a little bit

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about the series itself Now,
Michael, you're actually kind of

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00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:47,350
like a historical guy on this,
right?

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00:14:47,470 --> 00:14:50,470
Yeah, I've agreed to be a
historical consultant for this

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00:14:50,470 --> 00:14:53,790
and to to help make sure that,
you know, we're deriving the

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story from historical sources
and doing everything faithful to

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the context that these stories
are in.

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00:15:00,870 --> 00:15:03,990
Yeah, so that we're getting a
fully fleshed, you know, true

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characters of all those involved
and try to be very truthful and

257
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honest.
And representing our faith and

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the restoration and our our goal
is to just show the Lord's hand.

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And raising up Joseph Smith as a
prophet of God and how he lived

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and died, a prophet of God.
And we hope that that will

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strengthen the testimony,
especially of youth.

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I would say, because I mean
personally, I'd rather my kids

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would read books.
But we don't live in a world,

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unfortunately, where people read
a whole lot anymore and they get

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their media from, you know,
visual entertainment.

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And I'm not going to lie, there
are.

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There are.
I've seen plenty of films or TV

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series where you do feel
inspired you because some there

269
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,800
was someone in the process of
creating that that had some

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00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:51,080
inspiration from heaven and some
eternal truth was placed in

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00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,760
there and it and it becomes
uplifting or at least partly

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uplifting and and it those
moments can forever change

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someone's development.
Right.

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00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,760
And if I may add here and I
appreciate you saying that Mike,

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if I may add jump back a film.
Or a TV series, even if it's

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00:16:09,790 --> 00:16:13,110
super, super inspiring, will not
give a person a testimony.

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00:16:13,830 --> 00:16:17,430
The goal here is to create
enough spark to where they will

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read and pray to get a
testimony.

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00:16:20,670 --> 00:16:25,110
And that's why getting the
history, the history accurate is

280
00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:30,270
so important because that the
history is we don't have to do

281
00:16:30,270 --> 00:16:32,190
anything to it.
We don't have to change anything

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00:16:32,190 --> 00:16:34,710
about the history.
We just, we're just telling it.

283
00:16:35,630 --> 00:16:38,550
And when they see that, and if
it creates a spark and they want

284
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:42,430
to learn more, they can go read
and pray, hopefully, hopefully

285
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:45,950
receive a testimony from heaven
about the truthfulness of it.

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00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:50,670
Right.
So Joseph Smith, he's he's

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00:16:51,270 --> 00:16:55,230
that's ambitious, right?
Because we've seen portrayals of

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00:16:55,230 --> 00:16:58,190
Brigham before, Usually not
flattering, right?

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00:16:58,270 --> 00:17:02,390
But no one has dared take on
Joseph Smith yet.

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00:17:04,030 --> 00:17:05,990
Go ahead.
Well, I I don't know.

291
00:17:06,430 --> 00:17:08,349
You watched Did you watch Under
the Banner of Heaven?

292
00:17:08,349 --> 00:17:11,150
They did try a portrayal of.
They tried, right.

293
00:17:11,190 --> 00:17:15,230
And so, but are we going to do
we want to let other people

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00:17:15,230 --> 00:17:18,310
frame our beliefs?
You know, I don't think we

295
00:17:18,310 --> 00:17:19,589
should be more responsible than
that.

296
00:17:19,670 --> 00:17:22,670
I I agree with you and that was
part of the impetus of the of

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00:17:22,670 --> 00:17:26,510
the podcast was I didn't if we
didn't tell our own story then

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00:17:26,510 --> 00:17:30,350
we acquiesce to somebody else
and and we're going to let them

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00:17:30,430 --> 00:17:33,880
try to tell our story.
And they're going to find

300
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,080
whatever puts, pardon the
expression, asses and seats,

301
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:38,840
right.
That's it.

302
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,800
That's the goal.
And so the more sensational, the

303
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,800
more more money they make.
And taking on Joseph Smith,

304
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,040
what, what have been some of
your major fears in doing this?

305
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,840
This is unprecedented with
Joseph Smith.

306
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,200
What?
What were some of the things you

307
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,600
were most concerned about as you
started writing script, as you

308
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,600
started looking at the process
of this?

309
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,560
So when when Jesus Christ was up
on the earth, he promised his

310
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,920
apostles and his disciples that
if you end up following me, you

311
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,240
end up carrying on my work,
you're going to suffer a similar

312
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:15,240
fate.
And my greatest fear is that if

313
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,360
we defend Joseph Smith, it's
possible we could suffer the

314
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:22,760
same fate.
But because Joseph Smith was

315
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,520
such an inspiring figure and he
was willing to die to defend the

316
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,000
truthfulness it's inspired me to
be.

317
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:30,700
Willing to do.
I'm not saying that would ever

318
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:32,180
happen.
I mean we live in a different

319
00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:37,140
time and people are a lot more
you know kinder about just let's

320
00:18:37,140 --> 00:18:40,700
just go kill them.
But that would I would say

321
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:43,020
that's the biggest fear and I
hope that answers your question.

322
00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:45,100
There are other smaller.
Fears.

323
00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:48,220
Yeah, I I was talking more about
the smaller fears.

324
00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:52,740
Like sure, like trying to have
somebody portray the Prophet in

325
00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:56,140
such a deep way, right?
Most of the time we've gotten

326
00:18:56,180 --> 00:18:58,060
glimpses of the Prophet Joseph
Smith.

327
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,480
In film, like Under the Banner
of Heaven, it's it wasn't

328
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,440
flattering by any stretch, but
it was fleeting, right?

329
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,200
The same thing in a lot of other
LDS Church productions is that

330
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,600
it's fleeting, right?
I I think back of the Legacy

331
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,040
movie, I don't know if you guys
remember that it was popular

332
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,760
when I was first coming into the
church in 95, I went and saw it

333
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,360
at the Joseph Smith Memorial
Building and they showed him.

334
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:26,440
But it was very fleeting and it
was very superficial.

335
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,680
If you're going to do a six
season series on Joseph Smith,

336
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,480
this is a character that now has
to be developed, right?

337
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,560
This is not your typical, you
know just just give the the,

338
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,680
the, the narrative so to speak
that that we all have as

339
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,520
Mormons.
Now you're going to develop a

340
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,840
guy with well, pardon expression
parts and passions, right?

341
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,400
How, how do you, how do you do
that?

342
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,680
Okay.
So the history already did it

343
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,840
for us, right?
It's our job to analyze the

344
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,840
history close enough and use a
standard like all truth shall be

345
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,160
established by out of the mouth
or two or three witnesses.

346
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,120
And so if we find multiple
sources in the historical

347
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,840
context that confirm that Joseph
Smith did something in a certain

348
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,240
way, in a certain manner, that's
history, That's truth.

349
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,080
It's been established.
Now as far as the portrayal, a

350
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,960
lot of that's going to come down
to an actor and and a director

351
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,480
that can sit down with that
actor and and.

352
00:20:26,110 --> 00:20:30,750
To help capture this history
together to say who is this guy?

353
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:37,390
And frankly if if we were to
bring in an actor, say that got

354
00:20:37,390 --> 00:20:41,190
their idea of Joseph Smith from
Mormonism unveiled, it's not an

355
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:47,670
actor we're going to use because
very biased obviously hurtful

356
00:20:48,750 --> 00:20:52,870
affidavits were written against
Joseph and his family in that

357
00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:58,810
book, so.
The approach here is that if I'm

358
00:20:58,810 --> 00:21:03,290
auditioning for a Joseph Smith
actor, I'm not looking just for

359
00:21:03,290 --> 00:21:05,010
talent.
I'm looking for testimony as

360
00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:07,410
well.
Because if you've got a

361
00:21:07,410 --> 00:21:10,610
testimony as to who this guy
was, you're going to approach it

362
00:21:10,690 --> 00:21:14,330
as to as who he was, not as some
progressive historian says he

363
00:21:14,330 --> 00:21:15,330
was.
Right.

364
00:21:15,810 --> 00:21:17,690
Right.
And so it's very important to to

365
00:21:17,690 --> 00:21:22,280
get the right actor #1.
But also to direct it in in such

366
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,280
a way that we are constantly
referencing history and the

367
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,040
eyewitness accounts of the
spirit that Joseph would speak

368
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:35,520
in or or the his body language
in a certain instance.

369
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,360
You know, those little details
are so, so important that will

370
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,160
help to actually tell an
accurate history of who he was.

371
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,280
Gotcha, gotcha.
So how do you take So I like the

372
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,850
fact you're saying?
That you're going to establish

373
00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:53,530
the history historical events
based off of two or three

374
00:21:53,530 --> 00:21:55,730
accounts.
I think that's massively

375
00:21:55,730 --> 00:22:00,170
important because we don't.
A lot of shoddy history has been

376
00:22:00,170 --> 00:22:02,490
done based off of somebody's
account.

377
00:22:02,850 --> 00:22:05,970
Now there's certainly things.
So I'm in an early American

378
00:22:05,970 --> 00:22:08,010
history hunk.
I mean, when it comes to George

379
00:22:08,010 --> 00:22:13,010
Washington, man, dude's my hero.
He's everything I wish I could

380
00:22:13,010 --> 00:22:15,290
be that someday.
Maybe when I grow up, I'll get

381
00:22:15,450 --> 00:22:20,760
kind of close, but.
He was also a man, right.

382
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,760
And so we know he he had faults.
So the the fact you're going to

383
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,920
use two or three witnesses are
great because there is some

384
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,320
shoddy history out there.
Now there's some stuff I've read

385
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,080
that's a one off account, but it
sounds like Washington, but you

386
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,920
can't hang your hat on that.
So I can appreciate that.

387
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,200
How do you take all that
historical data?

388
00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:43,730
And then turn that into a
script.

389
00:22:43,770 --> 00:22:49,130
What's that process like?
Well, it's it's about 95%

390
00:22:49,290 --> 00:22:54,290
research and 5% actually
scripting because we're

391
00:22:54,290 --> 00:22:58,010
determined to get it accurate.
But I will say this, there are

392
00:22:59,330 --> 00:23:02,610
things in people's journals
about Joseph Smith where they

393
00:23:02,610 --> 00:23:06,210
will say wording like he
manifested A disposition of

394
00:23:06,210 --> 00:23:11,690
anger and so to be true to that
history.

395
00:23:12,350 --> 00:23:15,870
And that eyewitness account, you
say, okay, how do we show he

396
00:23:15,870 --> 00:23:19,150
manifested the disposition of
anger in a film?

397
00:23:20,470 --> 00:23:24,670
So we have to take some kind of
liberty to give some dialogue

398
00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:28,870
that does manifest the
disposition of anger.

399
00:23:29,670 --> 00:23:32,230
And a lot of people will say,
well, that's not right because

400
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:34,630
now you're putting words in his
mouth that he didn't really say.

401
00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:39,310
And frankly, if you were to go
to church with a pencil and a

402
00:23:39,310 --> 00:23:41,460
paper.
And you were to try to write

403
00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:44,380
down a sermon, how much would
you get of what they actually

404
00:23:44,380 --> 00:23:47,380
said.
So we're not trying to put words

405
00:23:47,380 --> 00:23:49,780
in Joseph Smith's mouth or
anybody else as we're trying to

406
00:23:49,780 --> 00:23:53,940
manifest the disposition that
somebody said that they had and

407
00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:56,820
and so that part of the
scripting process becomes and

408
00:23:56,820 --> 00:23:58,860
I'll give you an example and
turn the mic.

409
00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:02,300
So we're we're doing a short
film to open this up kind of

410
00:24:02,300 --> 00:24:09,620
like the chosen did okay and and
we've got a a character Charles

411
00:24:09,620 --> 00:24:11,290
Stoddard.
Came.

412
00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:13,410
He was 14 years old.
He was working for Joseph Smith

413
00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:16,530
and William Law at the same time
when they were at odds with each

414
00:24:16,530 --> 00:24:19,850
other in Nauvoo and.
I was a bum at 14.

415
00:24:19,850 --> 00:24:22,730
I wasn't working.
Right, right.

416
00:24:23,250 --> 00:24:24,970
So.
But but he tells it.

417
00:24:24,970 --> 00:24:28,490
He tells a story of overhearing
William Law and other people

418
00:24:28,490 --> 00:24:31,530
that had been cut off the church
conspiring against Joseph Smith.

419
00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:34,330
And in his record he says they
were conspiring against Joseph

420
00:24:34,330 --> 00:24:36,450
Smith.
But he doesn't say exactly what

421
00:24:36,450 --> 00:24:40,400
they said except for one line.
Don't worry, I'll take care of

422
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,120
it myself.
I'll have the Stoddard boy clean

423
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,120
my gun in the morning and I'll
take care of all Joel Smith

424
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:46,600
myself.
That's the one line he records

425
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,560
in there.
But he says that they had a big

426
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,320
meeting and they were conspiring
and he listened.

427
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,680
So I have.
They're off that last.

428
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,880
Line that you can kind of.
Get, yes, that's a basis.

429
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,490
True to the.
Exactly, That's a.

430
00:24:58,650 --> 00:24:59,770
Feel of the meeting.
Right.

431
00:24:59,770 --> 00:25:02,210
That's a basis.
But then you also got to say,

432
00:25:02,210 --> 00:25:04,930
okay, what month was this?
Oh, April of 1844.

433
00:25:04,930 --> 00:25:06,770
How did these guys feel at that
time in Nauvoo?

434
00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:09,450
And you go to other research,
What were the feelings of

435
00:25:09,450 --> 00:25:12,290
William Law, Robert Foster, the
Higbee, Sylvester Emmons and

436
00:25:12,290 --> 00:25:14,370
those who actually did the
Nauvoo Expositor?

437
00:25:15,210 --> 00:25:18,250
And when you find out what their
feelings were, then you can

438
00:25:18,250 --> 00:25:21,450
insert the dialogue of the
conspiracy.

439
00:25:21,570 --> 00:25:24,170
I got you.
And it's still true to history.

440
00:25:24,250 --> 00:25:26,610
Does that make sense?
They may have not said it in

441
00:25:26,610 --> 00:25:30,050
that exact moment, but there's
enough history that shows they

442
00:25:30,050 --> 00:25:31,890
felt that way.
Perfect.

443
00:25:31,970 --> 00:25:33,930
So that's part of the scripting
process.

444
00:25:35,530 --> 00:25:38,290
I think that part's going to be
really fun personally because

445
00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:40,610
you know you asked that question
what does it look like when you

446
00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:43,410
if you took a pencil and paper
to to describe some sermons.

447
00:25:43,410 --> 00:25:46,210
We know what that looks like
because before Pittman shorthand

448
00:25:46,210 --> 00:25:48,570
was introduced into the church
and George DeWalt was doing that

449
00:25:48,570 --> 00:25:50,400
work for.
You know, in the Journal of

450
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,280
Discourse is, you know, you had
Wilfrid Woodruff and Franklin D

451
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,200
Richards and William Clayton and
Willard Richards.

452
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,480
They all had pencil and paper
and they didn't know shorthand.

453
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,070
And they so they have.
They wrote down what they could

454
00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:04,590
remember and what they could put
the paper and sometimes it comes

455
00:26:04,590 --> 00:26:07,750
across different right And.
But when you look at all the

456
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:11,350
similarities of the outline, I
love, personally, I do this

457
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:14,750
sometimes where I'll make an
amalgamation kind of a certain

458
00:26:14,750 --> 00:26:16,910
servant that Joseph Smith gave
sure when.

459
00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:19,590
And you just kind of take all
those things and you put them

460
00:26:19,590 --> 00:26:20,430
together.
And I love it.

461
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:22,070
I love.
Doing and I don't think that's

462
00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:24,470
historically.
I don't, I don't think that that

463
00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:29,110
is misleading at all, right.
Look, we can't recreate every

464
00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:30,290
moment.
Sure.

465
00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:33,730
From somebody's life, none of us
have 30 some years to watch a

466
00:26:33,730 --> 00:26:36,970
movie, right?
Unless it's fast and furious

467
00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:38,130
somehow.
That continues.

468
00:26:38,570 --> 00:26:42,610
But but for the most part, we
can't do that.

469
00:26:43,610 --> 00:26:48,690
And I like what you said about
historical kind of gathering

470
00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:52,050
those facts and staying true to
the story at the same time.

471
00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:56,250
You you've got to make a script
and and Full disclosure, I.

472
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,840
That that Christmas episode I
did where I talked about my dad,

473
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,200
I was really concerned about
that.

474
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,440
And I haven't told anyone this,
but I sent, I sent the first

475
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,040
copy to David because I'm like,
okay, you're a film guy, you

476
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,840
know about this And told him the
whole story that I told at the

477
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,000
end of the podcast before I told
the story and not I was worried

478
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,480
about that.
Is someone going to call me a

479
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,560
liar down the road?
Because I had to formulate the

480
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,470
rest of the story?
The, the, the other events are

481
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:31,830
are important and the the basis
for all of it, but you still

482
00:27:31,830 --> 00:27:34,070
have to round out a story and
that's what I did.

483
00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:36,630
So I I really appreciate you
doing that for me because that

484
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:38,790
was that was huge.
I was nervous about that one.

485
00:27:39,150 --> 00:27:42,430
Certainly that's that's part of
the storytelling aspect is that

486
00:27:42,670 --> 00:27:49,830
you as a storyteller, let let me
just put it this way, some

487
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:52,150
story, some like the
amalgamations that Mike was

488
00:27:52,150 --> 00:27:55,680
mentioning.
Something stood out to Willard

489
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,440
Richards that didn't stand out
to William Clayton.

490
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,440
Something stood out to William
Clayton that didn't to somebody

491
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,440
else.
Right.

492
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,680
And and so when when you sit
these four guys, they're all

493
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,920
recorded the same sermon of
Joseph Smith, they're all going

494
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,320
to tell it different because
that was their experience with

495
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,480
it.
And that's why it's nice to find

496
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,400
two or three witnesses of the
same event, because then you get

497
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,890
more rounded story, right?
Well, when it comes to

498
00:28:23,890 --> 00:28:27,810
filmmaking and creative
storytelling, some of it doesn't

499
00:28:27,810 --> 00:28:33,690
have to be linear.
For example, let's say, let's

500
00:28:33,690 --> 00:28:36,730
say, for example, the
revelations that were given to a

501
00:28:36,730 --> 00:28:40,730
lot of Joseph's brothers and his
father about a marvelous work is

502
00:28:40,730 --> 00:28:42,650
about to come forth.
Right?

503
00:28:43,050 --> 00:28:48,050
So thrust in your sickle.
OK, so let's say that I open an

504
00:28:48,050 --> 00:28:51,370
episode with that revelation
being delivered to Hiram Smith,

505
00:28:51,690 --> 00:28:55,090
right?
And that's in late.

506
00:28:55,210 --> 00:29:02,090
What would you say, 18291829?
And then we start the episode

507
00:29:02,090 --> 00:29:05,090
with with that revelation, he's
receiving it from Joseph's

508
00:29:05,090 --> 00:29:07,050
mouth, right?
Okay.

509
00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:11,810
Now let's say we're going
telling the story linearly, and

510
00:29:11,810 --> 00:29:15,050
then later the Smith family's
having a conversation about

511
00:29:15,050 --> 00:29:18,650
Alvin who died or the Joseph
Smith finds himself in it.

512
00:29:19,290 --> 00:29:22,010
A difficult situation where he's
humble and we have him sitting

513
00:29:22,010 --> 00:29:25,610
down in the forest just
pondering and he has a flashback

514
00:29:26,370 --> 00:29:30,650
of when he was in the field with
Alvin thrusting in the sickle,

515
00:29:32,210 --> 00:29:35,690
right?
And Joseph had just basically

516
00:29:35,850 --> 00:29:38,410
gotten out of the bedroom after
Merle And I comes to him and

517
00:29:38,650 --> 00:29:40,970
talk to him all night and he's
weak and stuff like that.

518
00:29:42,010 --> 00:29:43,690
One event took place before the
other.

519
00:29:44,210 --> 00:29:47,690
But in the film we're we're
telling the end part last

520
00:29:47,690 --> 00:29:50,870
because.
If it's done right, you get the

521
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:53,470
right music and everything like
that, then the last part has

522
00:29:53,470 --> 00:29:57,990
more impact by telling that the
end last or the the beginning

523
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:59,550
last.
Does that make sense?

524
00:30:00,990 --> 00:30:05,030
So and and again that's not
being historically inaccurate

525
00:30:05,030 --> 00:30:08,910
like your Christmas story
because in the end you told it,

526
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:11,670
you told okay this person wasn't
real.

527
00:30:12,030 --> 00:30:12,710
Right.
Right.

528
00:30:13,070 --> 00:30:17,000
And and you you cleared the air.
But the story would have been

529
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,560
less impactful if you didn't
tell it the way that you did

530
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,000
right now.
In no way did you lie, because

531
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,080
in the end you said, okay, let's
clear the air.

532
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,800
This person's not real, but this
particular story is.

533
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,400
Took place, yeah.
Took place, and so as long as

534
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,320
you're being honest in all of
that, it's not really a lie.

535
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,240
Your encouragement, though, is
that people will stay to the end

536
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,120
of the end episode.
Right, Yeah.

537
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,760
Exactly.
Don't just say all this guy's

538
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,520
lying and leave.
Well, and and what you talk

539
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,960
about there in storytelling is
so important.

540
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,720
For as long as mankind has had
fire and been able to gather

541
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:58,080
around with his children and his
wife or wives or whatever his

542
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:03,080
tribe, it's been stories that
have communicated important

543
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:09,040
ideas.
And without those stories, we we

544
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,640
as a people, as a society, will
die on the vine.

545
00:31:15,110 --> 00:31:23,470
It's it's stories that that that
kind of frame our our point of

546
00:31:23,470 --> 00:31:27,230
reference, right.
I look at at a story like look,

547
00:31:27,230 --> 00:31:30,390
no matter how you feel about the
priesthood and the the

548
00:31:30,390 --> 00:31:33,790
priesthood band, I think we can
all agree that the way slavery

549
00:31:33,790 --> 00:31:37,230
was was done on and in the
United States was a horrible

550
00:31:37,470 --> 00:31:42,420
thing, right.
It wasn't like what it talks

551
00:31:42,420 --> 00:31:45,620
about in the Bible where it's
seven years and then you're

552
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:48,020
you're free.
This was something that was

553
00:31:48,020 --> 00:31:52,300
forever, that was abusive.
It was a story that's changed a

554
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:55,660
lot of people's opinion of
slavery.

555
00:31:55,660 --> 00:31:59,820
It was Uncle Tom's Cabin.
So stories are are a powerful

556
00:31:59,820 --> 00:32:06,060
mechanism for trying to either
change society, good or bad or.

557
00:32:06,930 --> 00:32:09,450
A way of properly framing
history.

558
00:32:09,530 --> 00:32:13,250
What would you have, Michael?
When you're talking about, you

559
00:32:13,250 --> 00:32:16,410
know, sitting down with your
tribe and what not, it's

560
00:32:16,410 --> 00:32:19,130
interesting to note you know
scripturally and historically

561
00:32:19,970 --> 00:32:23,290
when when we look at Adam and
Eve and you know they get the

562
00:32:23,290 --> 00:32:25,690
commandments, the first two
right, you know, don't protect

563
00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:28,250
the fruit and multiply or punish
the earth.

564
00:32:28,410 --> 00:32:31,770
Then the next one after that
whole situation evolved was

565
00:32:31,770 --> 00:32:34,410
offer sacrifices and the next
one was.

566
00:32:35,150 --> 00:32:36,990
Keep a book of remembrance,
right.

567
00:32:36,990 --> 00:32:39,550
And that was from the very get
go, the foundation of his

568
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:42,710
history.
And in society it was the Lord

569
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:45,670
told them to keep a book of
remembrance and to teach your

570
00:32:45,670 --> 00:32:49,190
children out of it.
And it says that because they

571
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:51,750
did this, that they were taught
out of a language which was pure

572
00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:56,190
and undefiled.
And even more interestingly, I

573
00:32:56,190 --> 00:32:58,270
mean it wasn't just history, but
it was also scripture and

574
00:32:58,270 --> 00:33:01,230
inspiration, revelations.
And it said any of that family,

575
00:33:01,670 --> 00:33:04,470
you know, we're able to write by
the spirit of inspiration.

576
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,720
You know, when they asked for it
or when it was given to them,

577
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,760
you know, and that was what was
passed down.

578
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,240
That is what.
And that's what gave them tribe,

579
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:19,920
you know, a culture and, you
know, a belonging to knowing

580
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,080
where they belong in God's
family, you know.

581
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,680
And so, yeah, it's so important
for us to to look at our history

582
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,400
and to acknowledge it and to,
you know, even from a gospel

583
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,560
point of view, our salvation is
dependent on embracing our

584
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,860
fathers.
You know, that's that's the

585
00:33:35,860 --> 00:33:38,180
spirit of Elijah.
Yeah, yeah.

586
00:33:38,620 --> 00:33:43,820
You know and it's it's funny
because without those stories we

587
00:33:43,820 --> 00:33:47,180
don't know who we are.
I mean I'll and and this comes

588
00:33:47,180 --> 00:33:51,140
from a very personal place to
me, a story that I, I related

589
00:33:51,140 --> 00:33:53,260
in.
I keep I hate going back to this

590
00:33:53,260 --> 00:33:57,380
but that that Christmas story
was the incident that took place

591
00:33:57,380 --> 00:33:59,700
between me and my mom when I was
you know.

592
00:34:00,590 --> 00:34:04,070
Pushing 1516 years old and I got
all the sudden learn how to

593
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:05,550
shave and I don't know how to do
it.

594
00:34:05,550 --> 00:34:09,270
And it was a mechanism.
I, I, I do remember yelling at

595
00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:10,389
her.
I don't know who I am.

596
00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:12,630
I mean, my dad's gone.
I don't, you know you're

597
00:34:12,630 --> 00:34:15,030
adopted.
I don't know anything about my

598
00:34:15,030 --> 00:34:18,870
family.
And so without those stories, we

599
00:34:18,870 --> 00:34:22,670
really have no identity, right?
As much as we all hate to admit

600
00:34:22,670 --> 00:34:28,429
it, especially in today's
society, we are who we are

601
00:34:28,429 --> 00:34:30,310
because of what our ancestors
did.

602
00:34:30,750 --> 00:34:32,429
Right.
The whole reason we're not

603
00:34:32,429 --> 00:34:36,230
speaking German right now was
because some of us had had the

604
00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:40,510
the fortitude and and the sack,
quite frankly to do that.

605
00:34:40,909 --> 00:34:42,429
What what would you have there,
Michael?

606
00:34:42,429 --> 00:34:45,190
No, I'm just laughing it.
Would be speaking German right

607
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:46,110
now.
Yeah.

608
00:34:46,110 --> 00:34:47,230
And I feel, yeah.
With any.

609
00:34:47,710 --> 00:34:49,350
Yeah, at any point in history,
right.

610
00:34:49,870 --> 00:34:51,429
Yeah, something.
If someone didn't do something,

611
00:34:51,429 --> 00:34:53,350
you know you could get overrun
by your neighbors.

612
00:34:53,469 --> 00:34:55,989
And German's an ugly language.
I mean, no one likes to ever

613
00:34:55,989 --> 00:34:56,909
hear that.
I mean.

614
00:34:56,949 --> 00:34:58,510
All right.
I like.

615
00:34:59,310 --> 00:35:01,590
I like German food, though, so,
you know, and there's.

616
00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:05,070
It doesn't like Rotwurst.
I mean, right, with sauerkraut

617
00:35:05,070 --> 00:35:06,710
and some nice mustard.
Oh yeah.

618
00:35:06,830 --> 00:35:08,630
But yeah, So, you know, I'm
grateful.

619
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:12,270
I'm grateful for MyHeritage.
And you know, when I was

620
00:35:12,270 --> 00:35:13,470
younger, I didn't care, you
know?

621
00:35:13,470 --> 00:35:16,150
But as I got older, I I did.
I learned to care.

622
00:35:16,150 --> 00:35:18,950
And one of the defining points,
if I can tell about that, was.

623
00:35:20,050 --> 00:35:24,690
I decided to oh, I decided to
read the church, one of the

624
00:35:24,690 --> 00:35:28,370
Church Institute manuals which
was called the Church History in

625
00:35:28,370 --> 00:35:30,610
the Dispensation of the Fullness
of times.

626
00:35:31,770 --> 00:35:36,690
And I've always been a voracious
reader and you're kind of

627
00:35:36,690 --> 00:35:38,250
unlocked down when you're
serving a mission.

628
00:35:38,250 --> 00:35:41,890
You, you know you need special
approval to, you know, to get

629
00:35:41,890 --> 00:35:44,130
certain things without, you know
that was given pretty freely,

630
00:35:44,130 --> 00:35:45,930
right.
But I became addicted to church

631
00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:48,770
history when I read, when I
started reading that and it was

632
00:35:48,770 --> 00:35:51,720
told.
You know, in the in the sections

633
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:55,840
you're telling the rise of the
church from 8 before 1829 to,

634
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,880
you know, to early Utah.
Right.

635
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:00,080
And and maybe even middle Utah.
Period.

636
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,800
You know and but the way it was
taught and told whoever wrote

637
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,320
that and I'm thankful for him
because it it put a love of

638
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,840
MyHeritage in me and it's it's
blessed me.

639
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,760
You know, coming into the
church, I came into the church

640
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:19,040
right about the time they were
Gerald and Lund was writing the

641
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:24,480
work in the Glory series and
being a a new member.

642
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,440
It was those stories told from
the point of view of a fictional

643
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,880
family within the early days of
the restoration.

644
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,960
Yeah, the steeds, exactly.
Who, by the way, is a large name

645
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,400
down in the fundamentalist
circles, right?

646
00:36:40,370 --> 00:36:42,090
But but what?
What?

647
00:36:42,090 --> 00:36:43,570
I can't.
I didn't know that at the time,

648
00:36:43,570 --> 00:36:48,450
obviously, But now thinking back
to it, there were kind of hints

649
00:36:48,450 --> 00:36:51,130
along the way that I was going
to end up a fundamentalist I had

650
00:36:51,170 --> 00:36:55,690
just looking back.
But anyway, it it was that that

651
00:36:55,690 --> 00:37:01,450
that informed me of what what
was now my history, right?

652
00:37:01,450 --> 00:37:05,770
What was my MyHeritage to a
large degree.

653
00:37:07,090 --> 00:37:10,210
Without that I wouldn't have had
that and and being able to tell

654
00:37:10,210 --> 00:37:15,530
things in the story is so
effective it it's way more look,

655
00:37:15,850 --> 00:37:18,970
part of the reason I think we're
we're so bad on our history now

656
00:37:18,970 --> 00:37:22,410
is it's been taught so crappy
for so many years, right.

657
00:37:23,890 --> 00:37:28,130
And so now we're we have an
opportunity like never before to

658
00:37:28,130 --> 00:37:32,050
tell good history.
Absolutely.

659
00:37:33,250 --> 00:37:36,450
I was just going to say David, I
absolutely enthralled and and

660
00:37:36,570 --> 00:37:40,410
and so grateful that you
adopted, you know that history

661
00:37:40,410 --> 00:37:43,290
as your own, you know coming
from, coming, coming from you

662
00:37:43,290 --> 00:37:45,130
know non pioneer heritage,
right?

663
00:37:45,330 --> 00:37:46,570
Like do you have any of that in
you?

664
00:37:46,970 --> 00:37:49,090
No, no.
I'm the only Mormon on either

665
00:37:49,090 --> 00:37:51,850
side of my family.
And so for you to call that your

666
00:37:51,850 --> 00:37:53,730
heritage like that just warms my
heart.

667
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:57,030
Which is good and bad, right?
It good.

668
00:37:57,270 --> 00:38:00,390
Well, it's it's bad in the sense
I don't have any of those cool

669
00:38:00,390 --> 00:38:02,070
stories of my own.
Well, I don't either.

670
00:38:02,070 --> 00:38:03,750
I'm not related to any church
leaders.

671
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:06,670
It I'm not church royalty.
I so I kind of get what you're

672
00:38:06,670 --> 00:38:07,550
what you're putting down.
There.

673
00:38:07,550 --> 00:38:10,910
But it's good in the sense that
when I I joined, you know, when

674
00:38:10,910 --> 00:38:13,670
I became a fundamentalist and I
told my side of the family what

675
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:15,430
I was doing, they were like,
well, yeah, isn't that what

676
00:38:15,430 --> 00:38:17,230
Mormons do?
I mean, I didn't.

677
00:38:17,870 --> 00:38:21,110
I didn't, I didn't have nearly
the push back like my my poor

678
00:38:21,110 --> 00:38:22,430
wife Amber did.
But.

679
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:25,110
I mean so it's it's good and
bad.

680
00:38:25,110 --> 00:38:30,670
But yeah, no I'm I'm I was very
grateful for those books even in

681
00:38:30,670 --> 00:38:34,510
the moment, which is odd for me
normally I I can look back later

682
00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:38,270
and be like oh those were those
were so important or this event

683
00:38:38,270 --> 00:38:39,870
was so important.
In the moment.

684
00:38:39,870 --> 00:38:44,350
I remember thinking I'm glad I
have these because they I felt

685
00:38:44,350 --> 00:38:46,270
like it told a pretty true
account right?

686
00:38:46,270 --> 00:38:48,350
Where there's some liberties
taken and where there's some

687
00:38:48,350 --> 00:38:49,750
things that were incorrect.
Sure.

688
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:52,670
But by and large I felt like one
did a good job.

689
00:38:52,670 --> 00:38:56,590
But I think it just goes to show
how important stories are to

690
00:38:56,590 --> 00:39:01,150
frame it.
And today we're we're in a fight

691
00:39:01,150 --> 00:39:04,670
for the soul of Joseph Smith.
I don't know how else to say it

692
00:39:04,670 --> 00:39:06,750
right.
Joseph is fine on the other

693
00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:09,270
side.
It's us here that have to now

694
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:13,110
save his his memory and make
sure his name is had for more

695
00:39:13,110 --> 00:39:17,750
good than evil and and so we
have.

696
00:39:18,070 --> 00:39:23,290
We have.
Folks who are blatantly Mormon I

697
00:39:23,290 --> 00:39:26,570
mean anti Mormon that come out
and slander his name call them a

698
00:39:26,570 --> 00:39:32,850
pedophile do all sorts of things
without really taking in context

699
00:39:32,850 --> 00:39:38,930
of history because context in
history matters a ton and and

700
00:39:38,930 --> 00:39:42,770
then we have some groups I'm
looking at you doctrine of

701
00:39:42,770 --> 00:39:47,650
Christ who are a little bit more
nefarious then then someone

702
00:39:47,650 --> 00:39:54,180
who's just out and out saying.
You know hey I I'm anti Joseph

703
00:39:54,180 --> 00:39:57,500
Smith or I'm anti Mormon.
They seek to corrupt the history

704
00:39:57,900 --> 00:40:03,220
through through nefarious ways
by making a Joseph Smith that's

705
00:40:03,220 --> 00:40:06,380
not historically accurate and
then slandering the names of

706
00:40:06,380 --> 00:40:10,060
John Taylor and Willard Richard.
So we're and now I'll take your

707
00:40:10,060 --> 00:40:17,420
hate mail and So what you're
doing Dave is so important

708
00:40:17,420 --> 00:40:20,740
because it.
It really is part of that fight

709
00:40:20,740 --> 00:40:25,820
for the history of Joseph Smith.
Now I'm gonna ask something

710
00:40:26,940 --> 00:40:28,660
anyway, did you have anything to
add to that?

711
00:40:28,820 --> 00:40:30,580
Yeah, yeah, if you don't mind.
Yeah.

712
00:40:30,980 --> 00:40:34,300
So what we have in our day and
time is what I call documentary

713
00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:38,490
historians.
And hearsay historians, right.

714
00:40:38,730 --> 00:40:41,650
And the hearsay historians are
the ones that have reached out

715
00:40:41,650 --> 00:40:43,890
to you and say, well did you
know that Brigham Young was a

716
00:40:43,890 --> 00:40:46,250
racist bigot?
Did you know that Joseph Smith

717
00:40:46,250 --> 00:40:49,690
was a pedophile and and and he
hided behind a pretended

718
00:40:49,690 --> 00:40:53,610
revelation to justify his his
activity and all this kind of

719
00:40:53,610 --> 00:40:55,890
stuff.
And these the hearsay historians

720
00:40:55,890 --> 00:40:58,370
are lazy, right?
I I'm not going to sugarcoat it.

721
00:40:58,410 --> 00:41:00,130
They're very lazy.
They won't go research for

722
00:41:00,130 --> 00:41:02,290
themselves.
They they just whatever the

723
00:41:02,290 --> 00:41:04,850
hearsay and the gossip is about
the person and that will go

724
00:41:04,850 --> 00:41:06,480
spread it.
Like wildfire.

725
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,240
And the documentary historians
are the ones that will actually

726
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:14,000
go and find documents.
And they they will go to the

727
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,480
archives.
They will go to the books where

728
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,800
other people have gone to the
archives where they verified

729
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:19,920
they're signed affidavits and
different things.

730
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:25,080
Saying, hey, I witnessed this, I
I saw this happen, this miracle

731
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,400
did take place.
This this guy attempted to kill

732
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,240
Joseph Smith, but the gun
wouldn't go off.

733
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,320
You know, things like that.
But when he shot at a post, it

734
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,760
did.
God preserved Joseph Smith at a

735
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,520
time where a lot of people were
losing their faith in him, you

736
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,480
know, those kinds of things.
And they their eyewitness,

737
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,760
people that are saying this
happened and signed an affidavit

738
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,000
to say that it happened.
And then you have other

739
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,040
documents that are also by
hearsay historians like

740
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,640
Philastus Hurl, but going back
to New York looking for people

741
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,440
to slander the Smith family and
they find Willard Chase, who was

742
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,400
the guy that was actually
looking for the plates when

743
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,970
Joseph got him.
Who would say stuff to demean

744
00:42:05,970 --> 00:42:09,610
the Smith family?
Like one time Hiram Smith shook

745
00:42:09,610 --> 00:42:14,810
his finger at me and so abused
me as if that's a bad thing,

746
00:42:14,930 --> 00:42:16,490
right?
I mean, we're talking about

747
00:42:17,050 --> 00:42:19,130
that.
That's a signed affidavit that

748
00:42:19,130 --> 00:42:22,010
people Oh no, The Smiths were
awful people because Hiram Smith

749
00:42:22,010 --> 00:42:24,650
shook his finger at Willow Chase
and so abused me.

750
00:42:24,990 --> 00:42:27,070
So there were woke people.
Back then that's what I'm

751
00:42:27,070 --> 00:42:27,550
saying.
Wow.

752
00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:30,710
That same spirit exactly.
It's it's that cry for

753
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:33,030
victimhood.
I felt bad that he did this.

754
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:37,630
Therefore the Smith family's bad
and and those kinds of

755
00:42:37,630 --> 00:42:41,790
affidavits ended up in I'm not
kidding LDS historians books

756
00:42:41,950 --> 00:42:44,990
about who Joseph Smith and his
family were and people buy a

757
00:42:44,990 --> 00:42:49,830
wholesale because they relate to
it because they themselves are a

758
00:42:49,830 --> 00:42:53,950
little woke and and so that's
just what I wanted to say about.

759
00:42:54,630 --> 00:42:57,790
Of the different variety of of
historians, you get the

760
00:42:57,790 --> 00:43:00,470
documentary historians with
people like Mike that actually

761
00:43:00,630 --> 00:43:04,550
research dig deep.
And I'm so grateful that that

762
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:09,310
Joseph Smith had enough
prophetic insight to say take

763
00:43:09,310 --> 00:43:10,470
records.
Right.

764
00:43:11,150 --> 00:43:13,950
Well, because he probably knew
this would happen.

765
00:43:14,030 --> 00:43:15,830
Yeah, I want to steal this Mike
back.

766
00:43:15,830 --> 00:43:18,750
I got a comment.
No, I mean, it's so important

767
00:43:18,750 --> 00:43:21,550
you go through the scriptures
and it says in multiple places

768
00:43:21,550 --> 00:43:24,950
out of the books that are kept.
The world to be judged and and

769
00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:27,390
the inhabitants thereof.
You know when the ancient of

770
00:43:27,390 --> 00:43:30,390
Days comes what does it say?
The books are reopened.

771
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:35,190
You know and then Revelations
the book of of the Lamb of God,

772
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:37,750
Book of life and and then the
books on earth, right.

773
00:43:38,110 --> 00:43:42,670
You know and section one 27128.
You know the records of you know

774
00:43:42,750 --> 00:43:44,110
going through the ordinances for
the dead.

775
00:43:44,110 --> 00:43:46,470
And these things need to be
recorded because out of those

776
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:49,350
books they need to.
You know balance with with the

777
00:43:49,350 --> 00:43:51,110
books that the angels in heaven
are, you know.

778
00:43:51,110 --> 00:43:54,070
So these these things are super
important, you know to keep

779
00:43:54,070 --> 00:43:55,550
these records.
You got something.

780
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:58,470
Yeah, I was just going to say
that fits along the law of

781
00:43:58,470 --> 00:44:00,830
witnesses.
Heaven is a witness to it.

782
00:44:00,990 --> 00:44:04,830
If there's not a second witness
on earth, it's not valid, right?

783
00:44:04,830 --> 00:44:06,670
It hasn't fulfilled the law of
witness.

784
00:44:09,030 --> 00:44:13,310
Real quick, David, Are you going
to be able to keep complete

785
00:44:13,310 --> 00:44:15,310
creative control through this
process?

786
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:16,390
That's.
Hard to say.

787
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:23,790
I I may need people to remind me
not to be so much of A pushover.

788
00:44:24,190 --> 00:44:27,070
Because inevitably there's going
to be people that want to be

789
00:44:27,070 --> 00:44:30,630
involved that want to to to tell
how it was in their mind.

790
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:36,310
And and ultimately and this is
where I hope Mike comes in and

791
00:44:36,310 --> 00:44:38,550
and other historians that I've
already talked to that are on

792
00:44:38,550 --> 00:44:43,230
board when that push back comes
and say Oh no, you need to

793
00:44:43,230 --> 00:44:46,100
portray Joseph Smith like this.
Those historians come forward

794
00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:48,460
with the documentary stuff.
We're talking the documents to

795
00:44:48,460 --> 00:44:51,820
say, hey, this is what it says,
this is what the eyewitnesses

796
00:44:51,820 --> 00:44:54,980
say and and therefore this is
how we're telling the history.

797
00:44:55,460 --> 00:44:58,060
Right.
That makes sense.

798
00:44:59,260 --> 00:45:02,340
I appreciate the vote of
confidence and you know, a quote

799
00:45:02,340 --> 00:45:03,580
from Brigham Young comes to
mind.

800
00:45:03,580 --> 00:45:05,460
You know, when people were
asking and you know, do you

801
00:45:05,460 --> 00:45:07,340
consider yourself Joseph Smith's
successor?

802
00:45:07,340 --> 00:45:09,420
And he basically says, you never
heard me say so.

803
00:45:09,740 --> 00:45:12,960
I just consider myself a good.
Dog to keep the wolves out of

804
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:13,960
the flock.
Right.

805
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,800
And and you know, I think I have
a good BS meter too.

806
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,280
So I think I think we'll be fine
on that and those things will be

807
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,240
picked up on.
If anyone does get involved and

808
00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:27,920
it has a revisionist agenda or
anything, you know, I'll, I'll

809
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:32,160
sniff that out like nothing.
I will say, David, in answer to

810
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:39,000
your question, financing is
pretty important, you know to to

811
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,720
get enough of resources to
actually make a high quality.

812
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,680
Experience in the storytelling
and and it's very possible that

813
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,160
that people will be like well
I'll invest or I'll donate if,

814
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,640
if, if, if, if you do this or if
you do that.

815
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,400
Let me see your script first
then I'll decide and I'm not

816
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,520
taking money.
If they want me to go against

817
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,800
the actual history, I don't want
their money.

818
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,560
I don't want their involvement
because the the way that I feel

819
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,480
about it right now is that this
is a missionary work first.

820
00:46:11,810 --> 00:46:15,010
Right.
And if it ends up being a little

821
00:46:15,010 --> 00:46:20,770
less quality, technically
speaking, I will never sacrifice

822
00:46:20,770 --> 00:46:23,130
the quality of the history for
technical quality.

823
00:46:23,450 --> 00:46:29,050
Good for you so cuz look more
important than CGI is the

824
00:46:29,090 --> 00:46:32,480
actual.
Let's face it, you're you're not

825
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,080
making The Avengers, right?
You don't need aliens coming out

826
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,560
of a hole in the sky in New
York, right?

827
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,360
What's more important here is
the storytelling, the the, the

828
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:47,440
telling of the accurate history.
With that said, and it sounds

829
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,880
like you're going to be pretty
involved all the way through, as

830
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,440
will Mike.
How do you see your guys there?

831
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,320
There's a couple of events.
I'm curious on how you see it

832
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,280
being portrayed.
One is like the miraculous.

833
00:47:00,860 --> 00:47:05,180
Stuff, right the the Sacred
Grove stuff, the the Kirtland

834
00:47:05,180 --> 00:47:07,340
Temple stuff.
How?

835
00:47:07,340 --> 00:47:11,180
How do you foresee being able
and without giving away the

836
00:47:11,180 --> 00:47:15,780
farm, how do you see that being
able to to be told?

837
00:47:15,780 --> 00:47:20,140
Is that something that will be
told in terms of just dialogue

838
00:47:20,140 --> 00:47:23,820
between other people, Do you
imagine showing that event?

839
00:47:24,820 --> 00:47:27,500
Opening scene, Season one.
Episode one.

840
00:47:27,500 --> 00:47:31,830
I'll give you a teaser.
Alvin and Hiram and Joseph and

841
00:47:31,830 --> 00:47:38,750
Joseph Senior are all out in the
field harvesting and Alvin

842
00:47:38,990 --> 00:47:42,990
notices Joseph isn't working as
hard as he usually does In this

843
00:47:42,990 --> 00:47:44,550
moment.
As an audience, we are Alvin.

844
00:47:45,710 --> 00:47:48,230
We are seeing Joseph Smith from
Alvin's perspective.

845
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:50,070
Then we cut over to Joseph
Smith.

846
00:47:50,070 --> 00:47:52,990
Senior, who also knows, notices
Joseph isn't feeling well.

847
00:47:53,490 --> 00:47:55,850
Can't get enough of the Mormon
Renegade podcast?

848
00:47:56,010 --> 00:47:58,730
Well, good news, we're on
Patreon and there's three

849
00:47:58,730 --> 00:48:00,250
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from.

850
00:48:00,770 --> 00:48:03,890
The first one, the Slightly
Rowdy package, allows you to

851
00:48:03,890 --> 00:48:06,930
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852
00:48:06,930 --> 00:48:09,130
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853
00:48:09,130 --> 00:48:12,090
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854
00:48:12,370 --> 00:48:16,370
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855
00:48:16,890 --> 00:48:19,250
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856
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:22,400
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857
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,200
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858
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,760
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of the day from a very Mormon

859
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,200
point of view.
You will also get exclusive

860
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,960
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there you'll be able to talk to

861
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,480
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862
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,320
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Go to Patreon today and get your

863
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,120
exclusive content.
We are seeing Joseph Smith from

864
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,910
Alvin's perspective.
Then we cut over to Joseph Smith

865
00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:50,830
senior who also knows notices
Joseph isn't feeling well.

866
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:56,190
We are now Joseph Smith senior
and Joseph senior says you don't

867
00:48:56,190 --> 00:48:59,350
look like you're feeling well,
son, go home, rest up.

868
00:49:00,350 --> 00:49:03,470
And then Joseph Junior tries to
climb over the fence and falls

869
00:49:03,470 --> 00:49:05,710
down.
And according to Joseph's

870
00:49:05,710 --> 00:49:08,630
history, Maroni appears about
him, right?

871
00:49:08,870 --> 00:49:12,470
But we're Alvin and we're Tyram
and we're Joseph Senior and Lucy

872
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:15,190
Mack Smith.
That's who we are as an

873
00:49:15,190 --> 00:49:18,120
audience.
And So what happens is Joseph

874
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,000
senior runs over there and talks
to him.

875
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,720
And Joseph says, father, I need
to tell you something.

876
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,560
A messenger visited me during
the night this happened and we

877
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,080
are experiencing Joseph seniors
first time hearing this.

878
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,440
We didn't, we didn't see
anything miraculous.

879
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,320
We're experience, we're just
analyzing.

880
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,440
Later on you'll have a Lucy
Harris experience and a Martin

881
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,120
Harris experience and all over
Calgary we're we're experiencing

882
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,210
it from their eyes now.
If there's an important part of

883
00:49:47,210 --> 00:49:52,050
history that only Joseph tells
about in the actual document

884
00:49:52,050 --> 00:49:55,650
part, or or that like the, what
would you say, the supernatural

885
00:49:55,650 --> 00:50:00,690
side of things, then Well,
obviously there's multiple

886
00:50:00,690 --> 00:50:04,170
witnesses of an Angel showing
the Bible or the Book of Mormon

887
00:50:04,170 --> 00:50:07,010
place, right?
So we can show that.

888
00:50:07,290 --> 00:50:10,090
But if there's a time where
somebody's being doubtful of

889
00:50:10,090 --> 00:50:13,970
Joseph Smith's story and he's
relating it, then we can show

890
00:50:13,970 --> 00:50:16,220
it.
Gotcha.

891
00:50:16,300 --> 00:50:18,540
We can show it because he's
relating it to this person.

892
00:50:19,020 --> 00:50:24,060
But as much as possible though,
the approach I'm taking is from

893
00:50:24,060 --> 00:50:28,740
other people's perspective and
especially the women in Navu in

894
00:50:28,740 --> 00:50:31,780
the Navu period.
That's where I was going next

895
00:50:31,860 --> 00:50:35,180
was was the the, the stuff about
plural marriage.

896
00:50:35,500 --> 00:50:37,140
How are you going to broach
that?

897
00:50:37,460 --> 00:50:42,060
Because understand your audience
is going to be wide-ranging on

898
00:50:42,060 --> 00:50:44,980
the Mormon spectrum.
There's going to be guys like me

899
00:50:44,980 --> 00:50:47,460
when he when I see Joseph
practicing plural marriage, I'm

900
00:50:47,460 --> 00:50:51,420
going to be like, and then
there's going to be other people

901
00:50:51,420 --> 00:50:56,460
who are very sensitive to this,
very, very irritated.

902
00:50:56,620 --> 00:50:58,420
Weeping, wailing, and gnashing
of teeth.

903
00:50:58,580 --> 00:50:59,700
I like it.
I like it.

904
00:51:00,420 --> 00:51:03,180
Well, OK.
I'm also step back just a little

905
00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:08,100
bit.
So no, it it will be addressed

906
00:51:08,580 --> 00:51:10,740
that much I can say.
It will be addressed.

907
00:51:11,260 --> 00:51:14,820
And and again it will be
approached from actual history

908
00:51:15,260 --> 00:51:20,980
not hearsay history it it's
going to be witnesses and and

909
00:51:21,460 --> 00:51:25,260
oddly enough the short that we
are releasing for free to

910
00:51:26,140 --> 00:51:30,340
announce the series addresses it
head on.

911
00:51:30,820 --> 00:51:32,900
Really.
Head on, but it addresses it

912
00:51:32,900 --> 00:51:34,780
from the William and Jane law
perspective.

913
00:51:35,340 --> 00:51:36,300
Oh, wow.
Yeah.

914
00:51:36,740 --> 00:51:40,820
And and so stay tuned for that.
Sometime.

915
00:51:40,820 --> 00:51:42,260
Do you have a release date on
that yet?

916
00:51:42,260 --> 00:51:44,140
Sometime this year I'm hoping to
have that.

917
00:51:44,140 --> 00:51:48,540
One finished.
So, and it's involved some

918
00:51:48,540 --> 00:51:50,940
extensive research for an 11
page script.

919
00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:53,020
I mean extensive, extensive
research.

920
00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:56,180
I mean I've gone into William
Laws Journal and the wording of

921
00:51:56,180 --> 00:51:59,060
the Navio Expositor to get an
idea of how these people felt

922
00:51:59,060 --> 00:52:01,500
and what their concern was and
all kinds of things.

923
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:05,180
So I didn't just research Joseph
Smith and the anointed quorums

924
00:52:05,460 --> 00:52:08,260
side of things.
I researched William Law and the

925
00:52:08,260 --> 00:52:14,140
Higbees and the Navi Expositor
group side of things and and so

926
00:52:14,140 --> 00:52:16,860
in when it comes to the
storytelling, I do want to tell

927
00:52:16,860 --> 00:52:21,020
how both sides felt but come to
the conclusion of what history

928
00:52:21,020 --> 00:52:23,380
said happened.
Does that make sense?

929
00:52:23,460 --> 00:52:25,620
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Okay.

930
00:52:25,620 --> 00:52:28,940
So yes, it will be addressed.
It's history, right?

931
00:52:28,940 --> 00:52:34,020
It has to be told, even even if
there's oh, what was the

932
00:52:34,020 --> 00:52:38,600
instance?
Howard Curray, Young man named

933
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,280
Howard Curray, a little bit
skinny, about 130 pounds.

934
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,400
Joseph was pushing 220 and
Joseph loved to wrestle, you

935
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,520
know, and he playfully starts
wrestling with Howard Curray and

936
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:53,520
ends up breaking his leg, right?
That's not a good look for

937
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,680
Joseph Smith, but it's history.
But what he did after it,

938
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,160
according to Howard Curray, is
He gave Howard Curray one of the

939
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:04,680
greatest blessings he ever
received in his life.

940
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,840
And it led to a testimony of who
he was Howard Curray was going

941
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,040
to marry.
That sounds like the Lord

942
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,080
wrestling with Jacob and.
Right, the.

943
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,040
Lord breaks.
Jacob's leg.

944
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,760
Interestingly enough,
interestingly enough, Howard

945
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,960
Curray cited that scripture and
mentioned to Joseph really when

946
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,800
the when the Jacob wrestled with
the Lord, he requested a

947
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,320
blessing and the Lord gave it to
him.

948
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,480
So Joseph gave him a blessing.
So yes.

949
00:53:32,810 --> 00:53:34,930
Your hearsay historians will
say, well, did you know that

950
00:53:34,930 --> 00:53:37,570
Joseph Smith purposely broke the
guy's leg, right.

951
00:53:40,090 --> 00:53:42,170
OK, let's let's tell the rest of
the story.

952
00:53:42,370 --> 00:53:45,490
And so in other words, if it
look, if if something looks bad

953
00:53:46,410 --> 00:53:49,530
toward Joseph Smith temporarily,
just stay tuned to the end of

954
00:53:49,530 --> 00:53:52,890
the episode because the history
reveals some some amazing stuff

955
00:53:52,890 --> 00:53:55,090
about the man.
Well, and I think it's so

956
00:53:55,090 --> 00:53:59,130
important that one history gets
told in context.

957
00:53:59,370 --> 00:54:01,210
Yes.
Context is important.

958
00:54:02,020 --> 00:54:06,220
Right when we start talking
about Helen, Mark Kimball, who

959
00:54:06,460 --> 00:54:11,060
was the girl that was almost 15?
I had a good friend.

960
00:54:11,500 --> 00:54:12,700
I think it was Helen, Mark
Kimball.

961
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:15,420
I could be wrong.
I had a good friend who was

962
00:54:15,420 --> 00:54:18,820
freaked out about this.
I mean freaked out.

963
00:54:19,300 --> 00:54:21,060
And I was like, OK, slow your
roll.

964
00:54:21,420 --> 00:54:25,060
Let's let's talk this out.
I was like and and I had a

965
00:54:25,060 --> 00:54:28,820
little bit of experience with
this due to all my my research.

966
00:54:28,820 --> 00:54:31,930
I get into the founders.
Specifically, Washington.

967
00:54:32,370 --> 00:54:36,130
I was like, let's say it's
frontier, whatever.

968
00:54:36,370 --> 00:54:40,410
In that time period, let's just
say Emma died and then Joseph

969
00:54:40,410 --> 00:54:42,090
married this girl.
What then?

970
00:54:43,330 --> 00:54:46,370
Well, it's not nearly the
controversy, right?

971
00:54:46,730 --> 00:54:48,690
Was was she young?
Yes.

972
00:54:49,050 --> 00:54:54,130
But that was not uncommon.
And women matured faster in

973
00:54:54,130 --> 00:54:55,930
those times.
I mean, there's there's a whole

974
00:54:55,930 --> 00:54:58,170
bunch of things.
I did a deep dive on just this

975
00:54:58,170 --> 00:54:59,810
thing because this guy was
freaked out.

976
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,560
And right down to diet can
affect maturity levels, right?

977
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,840
And so, you know, while it would
never fly today, nor should it,

978
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,000
right?
I want to make that clear.

979
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,680
I'm not advocating for a 14 year
old getting married.

980
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,040
Let's get that off the table.
Now somehow I know I'm going to

981
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,440
have to address this again, but
I'm not in favor of that.

982
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,800
But for that time period, that
wasn't.

983
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:27,470
Scandalous.
The scandalous portion was the

984
00:55:27,470 --> 00:55:28,990
plural marriage portion.
Mike.

985
00:55:29,110 --> 00:55:30,870
No, I was the same thing as you,
man.

986
00:55:30,870 --> 00:55:34,830
I I I hesitate because of how
taboo the situation is when it

987
00:55:34,830 --> 00:55:36,230
talks.
When you talk about teenagers

988
00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:38,550
marrying, you know, especially
older people.

989
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:41,990
But I've looked at the city
ordinances of Nauvoo and the

990
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:44,990
city laws that said that it was
it was legal for men to marry at

991
00:55:44,990 --> 00:55:48,710
16 and for women to marry at 14.
Yep, I've seen it.

992
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:51,590
And that's just the way it was.
And we in our culture.

993
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:54,610
That is weird.
And that is not considered

994
00:55:54,610 --> 00:55:57,530
normal, but I don't really think
we can stand to judge them for

995
00:55:57,530 --> 00:55:59,210
what they consider normal at
their time.

996
00:55:59,530 --> 00:56:02,490
No, cuz if we try to it, it's
called presentism.

997
00:56:02,530 --> 00:56:05,970
If we try to tell history
through presentism, we're going

998
00:56:05,970 --> 00:56:10,650
to find all sorts of crap that
we're not going to be able to

999
00:56:10,650 --> 00:56:13,730
wrap our minds around because
we're we're different people

1000
00:56:13,730 --> 00:56:18,770
entirely now, right?
And so, I mean, the average age

1001
00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:22,490
was like 53 or something,
something crazy and so.

1002
00:56:23,030 --> 00:56:26,510
You you have to take into
account context, which is

1003
00:56:26,510 --> 00:56:31,590
something that that the critics
of Joseph Smith never do.

1004
00:56:31,910 --> 00:56:35,910
They just puke the fact and then
expect you to be outraged.

1005
00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:41,070
Right and and history told
through presentism will say that

1006
00:56:41,070 --> 00:56:42,790
Joseph Smith married underage
girls.

1007
00:56:43,230 --> 00:56:46,350
Actual history says they weren't
underage in that day.

1008
00:56:46,590 --> 00:56:47,750
No.
No.

1009
00:56:47,750 --> 00:56:49,350
Therefore the context is
important.

1010
00:56:49,350 --> 00:56:50,790
That's another part of our
research.

1011
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,000
How was society that day?
And how were the laws?

1012
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,720
And and to illustrate it even
further, the martyrdom.

1013
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,920
When we get to that point in in
the series The Martyrdom, I've

1014
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,720
got a book called The Martyrdom
of Joseph.

1015
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:06,280
That's what it's actually
called.

1016
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,040
But this book doesn't just tell
what happened to Carthage.

1017
00:57:10,780 --> 00:57:13,860
It tells all the newspapers
throughout the entire country

1018
00:57:14,140 --> 00:57:17,660
leading up to it and all the
things that they were saying and

1019
00:57:17,660 --> 00:57:20,020
all of the states putting
pressure on Illinois to do

1020
00:57:20,020 --> 00:57:23,580
something about this guy because
if he becomes president, then we

1021
00:57:23,580 --> 00:57:26,940
are going to lose our political
pool there.

1022
00:57:26,940 --> 00:57:31,140
There's so much out there that
we could tell that was going on,

1023
00:57:31,260 --> 00:57:35,700
on a broader spectrum about how
much of A ripple effect Joseph

1024
00:57:35,700 --> 00:57:38,900
Smith Junior was having on the
world and how scared they were

1025
00:57:39,540 --> 00:57:42,670
because of it.
You know you bring up a a very

1026
00:57:42,670 --> 00:57:46,670
interesting fact on Joseph Smith
and and the ripples that were

1027
00:57:46,670 --> 00:57:49,590
were happening during that
period in his life.

1028
00:57:50,830 --> 00:57:54,550
When I I lived, me and Amber
moved back east to Maryland for

1029
00:57:54,550 --> 00:57:59,950
a little while and I worked for
a company who would map the digs

1030
00:58:00,030 --> 00:58:02,350
for the archaeological
department for the University of

1031
00:58:02,350 --> 00:58:04,150
Maryland.
Fascinating work.

1032
00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:06,190
Some of the best work I ever did
is a surveyor.

1033
00:58:07,340 --> 00:58:11,020
And being a history honk and
getting to go explore Old Town

1034
00:58:11,020 --> 00:58:13,660
sites and that sort of thing,
absolutely awesome.

1035
00:58:14,420 --> 00:58:20,420
But one of the perks was as I
got to take like 3 credits every

1036
00:58:20,420 --> 00:58:24,620
semester for free because we
were technically working for the

1037
00:58:24,620 --> 00:58:27,660
university.
So I took a course in Jacksonian

1038
00:58:27,660 --> 00:58:30,620
America.
Now you can't really talk about

1039
00:58:30,620 --> 00:58:33,500
Jacksonian America without
talking about the Mormons,

1040
00:58:34,220 --> 00:58:37,750
right?
And I remember my the professor

1041
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:39,590
said something that that struck
me.

1042
00:58:39,590 --> 00:58:43,470
Now this is Maryland, so I
think, I'm sure I was the only

1043
00:58:43,470 --> 00:58:48,350
Mormon in in the class.
Keep in mind my home teaching

1044
00:58:48,350 --> 00:58:51,230
radius in those days was 100
miles, right?

1045
00:58:51,230 --> 00:58:54,630
So I was covering most of the
Delmar Peninsula trying to get

1046
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:57,790
it done within a month.
I wish they would have had zoom

1047
00:58:57,790 --> 00:59:04,180
back in those days, but.
The professor said something I

1048
00:59:04,180 --> 00:59:08,060
found very, very profound.
He said when you are dealing

1049
00:59:08,060 --> 00:59:11,820
with Joseph Smith, you have to
conclude one of two options.

1050
00:59:12,220 --> 00:59:16,900
He was either one, the most raw
genius that America ever

1051
00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:21,620
produced, maybe the world to be
able to establish cities and

1052
00:59:21,620 --> 00:59:25,300
communities.
And he he then kind of veered

1053
00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:27,780
off and he said okay.
How many chapels did Joseph

1054
00:59:27,780 --> 00:59:31,780
Smith build in his lifetime?
And 10.

1055
00:59:32,090 --> 00:59:35,610
Zero was the the number he built
temples and cities.

1056
00:59:35,810 --> 00:59:39,130
He's like, you do not see men in
history that are able to build

1057
00:59:39,130 --> 00:59:43,930
society most of the time without
inflicting massive amounts of

1058
00:59:43,930 --> 00:59:47,250
bloodshed.
The other option was he was who

1059
00:59:47,250 --> 00:59:52,530
he said he was.
And I asked my professor at the

1060
00:59:52,770 --> 00:59:55,930
at the end of the semester, I
was like, all right, I'm a

1061
00:59:55,930 --> 00:59:57,770
Mormon.
I got to know which side do you

1062
00:59:57,770 --> 00:59:59,050
fall on?
He said.

1063
00:59:59,050 --> 01:00:00,530
Well, I just don't ask the
question.

1064
01:00:02,690 --> 01:00:07,690
So, so I mean that's that's from
the the the mouth of an

1065
01:00:07,690 --> 01:00:10,810
academic, right.
And so Joseph Smith definitely

1066
01:00:10,810 --> 01:00:16,970
did have an impact and it's from
just a purely academic and and

1067
01:00:16,970 --> 01:00:19,690
historical sense.
It's been something that's

1068
01:00:19,690 --> 01:00:24,970
frustrated me for a long time.
Is that why hasn't anyone else

1069
01:00:24,970 --> 01:00:28,130
done this with Joseph Smith yet?
Yeah, why do you think that is

1070
01:00:28,130 --> 01:00:31,610
David?
I think it's mostly because he's

1071
01:00:31,610 --> 01:00:36,930
such a controversial historical
figure and because Marone, I

1072
01:00:36,930 --> 01:00:40,250
told him right off the bat, your
name will be had for good and

1073
01:00:40,250 --> 01:00:48,810
evil throughout all nations.
And and I do think that that

1074
01:00:48,810 --> 01:00:51,930
alone is intimidating.
It's.

1075
01:00:53,130 --> 01:00:56,690
I don't want to call him a
polarizing figure, but in the

1076
01:00:56,690 --> 01:00:59,170
historical context because of
the reactions.

1077
01:00:59,470 --> 01:01:02,470
Of people.
He is a polarizing figure, and I

1078
01:01:02,470 --> 01:01:06,470
just think, I will admit it's
highly ambitious.

1079
01:01:06,470 --> 01:01:11,150
It's a lofty thing to attempt to
tell the entire arcing ministry

1080
01:01:11,150 --> 01:01:15,790
of Joseph Smith, but because of
what we're facing today, it

1081
01:01:15,790 --> 01:01:17,710
needs to be done.
Yeah, yeah.

1082
01:01:17,710 --> 01:01:20,110
No, I think what you're doing is
absolutely vital.

1083
01:01:20,350 --> 01:01:22,830
Now I know that the the Church
has.

1084
01:01:24,150 --> 01:01:27,110
I don't know if I should say the
church or TC Christiansen or

1085
01:01:27,110 --> 01:01:29,830
just the the marriage between
the church and TC.

1086
01:01:29,830 --> 01:01:32,750
Christiansen and real quick tell
us who TC Christiansen is.

1087
01:01:32,750 --> 01:01:35,470
He's a famous LDS actor and
producer, correct?

1088
01:01:35,470 --> 01:01:39,950
He's a famous director and
cinematographer and he he did 17

1089
01:01:39,950 --> 01:01:43,470
Miracles and Ephraims Rescue and
the Kochville Miracle and he's

1090
01:01:43,470 --> 01:01:47,630
done basically the, for lack of
a better term, the LDS

1091
01:01:47,630 --> 01:01:50,950
blockbusters.
But he was also the one that was

1092
01:01:50,950 --> 01:01:53,110
hired by the church to do the
film.

1093
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,320
Joseph, Prophet of the
Restoration, which was one of

1094
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,280
the most inspiring pieces of
film that was ever put together.

1095
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:01,240
It was a really good one, about
an hour long.

1096
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:03,880
Though yeah, it's about an hour
long and the church played him

1097
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,600
at historic sites for a long
time.

1098
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,240
They played it there.
It's very, very impactful in my

1099
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:13,440
opinion.
And they touched on Joseph Smith

1100
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:19,160
in an hour, in in in his entire
story, in an hour and.

1101
01:02:20,060 --> 01:02:23,500
His his life and his ministry
and the miracles that happened

1102
01:02:23,900 --> 01:02:27,380
that tell who he is.
A movie can't do that.

1103
01:02:28,580 --> 01:02:31,500
Right.
It has to be a fully fleshed

1104
01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:36,380
series and and so with that, if
you're okay with it, I will tell

1105
01:02:36,380 --> 01:02:38,540
you the six seasons, the names
of the six seasons.

1106
01:02:39,980 --> 01:02:44,260
Season one is Gold Bible and
we're going to start as 17 year

1107
01:02:44,260 --> 01:02:46,340
old Joseph telling his father
about him.

1108
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:49,840
An Angel visiting him and
telling him some Old Testament

1109
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,160
stuff that people don't care
about anymore.

1110
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:57,400
And and and it goes from from
that moment clear up until the

1111
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:02,920
printing of the Book of Mormon
and then the season 2 is there.

1112
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:04,840
Exodus from New York and the
Kirtland era.

1113
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:09,080
So we just call it Kirtland.
It's the rise of Philastis

1114
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:12,440
Hurlbut and other enemies to the
church and some of the conflict

1115
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:16,750
there plus some of the.
Manifestations both good and

1116
01:03:16,750 --> 01:03:18,830
bad, Yeah, that they had to
combat you.

1117
01:03:19,510 --> 01:03:21,510
Know, I remember.
Sorry to go rail.

1118
01:03:21,510 --> 01:03:22,550
Yeah, I'll let you.
That's okay.

1119
01:03:22,670 --> 01:03:26,550
Second, I remember thinking
anyone took a guy named Hurl.

1120
01:03:26,550 --> 01:03:33,150
But seriously, I mean, I will.
OK, yes, yes, sorry.

1121
01:03:33,150 --> 01:03:35,270
I know what you mean.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer

1122
01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:36,590
you're.
Getting a small sample of what

1123
01:03:36,590 --> 01:03:38,710
my wife's have to deal with on a
daily basis.

1124
01:03:38,750 --> 01:03:43,470
I I think, I think they love it.
So I'm gonna give you a hint.

1125
01:03:43,470 --> 01:03:45,550
I'll let your audience decide
what this means.

1126
01:03:45,550 --> 01:03:48,990
But one of the episodes in the
Kirtland era is called Rough

1127
01:03:48,990 --> 01:03:54,270
Stone Hurling and and when they
see the episode, you'll find out

1128
01:03:54,270 --> 01:03:58,600
why, You'll find out why.
And then we go to season three

1129
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:04,360
is called Exterminacyan, the
effort for Zion that ended up in

1130
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:09,080
extermination.
Season four is the rise of Navu,

1131
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:13,920
Season 5, the fall of Navu and
season six is Legacy and

1132
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:17,080
Succession.
And I think they kind of speak

1133
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,160
for themselves as far as what
what content will be trying to

1134
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:25,680
capture, but ultimately.
It's going to there.

1135
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,400
There will be a few episodes
post martyrdom that we covered

1136
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,680
to show the legacy that Joseph
Smith left and the succession

1137
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:40,480
question and to even touch on
each of the How do I word this?

1138
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,320
Claimants.
Each of the claimants.

1139
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:45,120
That's going.
To be fun, nice.

1140
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,000
Yes, nice.
So Strang.

1141
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:49,600
In the whole group.
Yep, Yep.

1142
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,440
Strang Rignan.
Who are some others color.

1143
01:04:54,350 --> 01:04:55,190
Cutler didn't.
Cut he.

1144
01:04:55,230 --> 01:04:57,590
Before, until after Alfus
Cutler.

1145
01:04:58,070 --> 01:05:00,950
Alfus Cutler actually went with
Brigham Young for a while and it

1146
01:05:00,950 --> 01:05:03,110
wasn't.
And he made it to Winter

1147
01:05:03,110 --> 01:05:05,190
Quarters.
And at some point after being

1148
01:05:05,190 --> 01:05:07,270
Winter Quarters, I think he
stayed there for a while after

1149
01:05:07,270 --> 01:05:10,190
Brigham went to Utah.
And then they just had a they

1150
01:05:10,190 --> 01:05:12,550
had a break.
And I honestly though I think

1151
01:05:12,550 --> 01:05:16,390
they had a really good
relationship Despite that and

1152
01:05:16,390 --> 01:05:17,670
it's.
Better than lime and white.

1153
01:05:17,870 --> 01:05:21,020
And way better than that.
You know, but then, yeah, there

1154
01:05:21,020 --> 01:05:23,620
you had a Lyman White and maybe
we could talk about that.

1155
01:05:23,620 --> 01:05:26,460
That'll be interesting.
And you have a James Emmett who

1156
01:05:26,460 --> 01:05:28,140
went up to South Dakota
Vermilion.

1157
01:05:28,140 --> 01:05:29,780
South Dakota is kind of an
independent.

1158
01:05:29,780 --> 01:05:33,060
You have George Miller, who was
with James Emmett and then he

1159
01:05:33,060 --> 01:05:39,700
went to James J Strang in the
end and super interesting.

1160
01:05:39,700 --> 01:05:41,740
So I don't think George Miller
claimed anything for himself,

1161
01:05:41,740 --> 01:05:45,020
but he was kind of navigating
the claimants as well, right?

1162
01:05:46,140 --> 01:05:48,900
Talk a little bit real quick
about Lyman wife.

1163
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,800
Lyman White was he was the first
person in this dispensation,

1164
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:55,480
ordained the office of high
priest.

1165
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:57,560
In 1830 Texas.
Right.

1166
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,240
He did, yeah.
So in 1831, when Joseph Smith

1167
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:03,240
began to talk about how the Lord
is preparing the Saints for an

1168
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,000
endowment of power.
Right.

1169
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,160
And he was teaching that in the
school of the prophets and stuff

1170
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:09,880
like that.
And, you know, and that office

1171
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:11,720
was revealed, right, because
there weren't anything besides.

1172
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,890
I mean, you had Oliver.
And Joseph has apostles, right?

1173
01:06:15,370 --> 01:06:17,770
Elders and then priests,
teachers and deacons.

1174
01:06:17,770 --> 01:06:18,290
You're right.
And so.

1175
01:06:18,290 --> 01:06:21,410
But Liman White was the first
person ordained high priest and

1176
01:06:21,410 --> 01:06:26,810
then others.
He was a member of the high

1177
01:06:26,810 --> 01:06:29,530
Council in in independence and
far West.

1178
01:06:29,770 --> 01:06:32,090
Right.
And was down more in the

1179
01:06:32,090 --> 01:06:33,770
Missouri period than the
Kirtland period.

1180
01:06:34,490 --> 01:06:37,930
And then he was added to the
Quorum of the 12th in Nau and

1181
01:06:37,930 --> 01:06:42,570
the Council of 50 in Nauvou.
And he was older than Brigham

1182
01:06:42,570 --> 01:06:47,260
Young.
And so considering that the

1183
01:06:47,260 --> 01:06:50,540
quorum of the 12 when it was
initially organized was by age

1184
01:06:50,540 --> 01:06:54,660
seniority and the council of 50
besides the chairman being the

1185
01:06:54,660 --> 01:06:56,900
president of the church was
organized in a round table

1186
01:06:56,900 --> 01:07:01,300
format by age seniority, he kind
of felt like okay.

1187
01:07:01,300 --> 01:07:05,220
I'm the oldest guy here, so by
patriarchal right, so to speak,

1188
01:07:05,300 --> 01:07:09,390
I should kind of be.
In charge or just, you know, or,

1189
01:07:09,470 --> 01:07:10,910
you know, they can do what they
want.

1190
01:07:10,910 --> 01:07:12,990
But but yeah, I don't have to.
I don't have to report.

1191
01:07:12,990 --> 01:07:16,110
Yeah, thank you.
And so that he was kind of in

1192
01:07:16,110 --> 01:07:19,630
limbo for a while and the
Brigham Young tried to maintain

1193
01:07:20,190 --> 01:07:22,950
some correspondence with him
because he wasn't sure where he

1194
01:07:22,950 --> 01:07:26,310
was fully at initially, you
know.

1195
01:07:26,550 --> 01:07:29,590
But yeah, he ended up settling
in Zodiac, Texas, which he,

1196
01:07:30,470 --> 01:07:33,270
Lyman White, have been
discussing with Joseph Smith.

1197
01:07:33,970 --> 01:07:38,930
In Nauvoo about the potential
location for Texas and been

1198
01:07:38,930 --> 01:07:41,730
writing letters to Sam Houston.
I was going to say there's some

1199
01:07:41,730 --> 01:07:44,370
interesting exchanges.
Didn't Sam Houston essentially

1200
01:07:44,370 --> 01:07:46,690
offer him?
Would be Houston now?

1201
01:07:46,930 --> 01:07:48,730
A huge tract of land.
Yeah.

1202
01:07:48,970 --> 01:07:51,290
To be a buffer zone between
Mexico and Texas.

1203
01:07:51,290 --> 01:07:53,490
And he's like, yeah, come down
and you can be like the buffer,

1204
01:07:53,850 --> 01:07:57,130
you know, because I guess there
was tensions there, right.

1205
01:07:57,130 --> 01:07:59,810
So it kind of was like, yeah,
you could help us defuse this by

1206
01:07:59,810 --> 01:08:01,370
being a third party involved,
you know?

1207
01:08:01,860 --> 01:08:02,980
And so that was really
interesting.

1208
01:08:02,980 --> 01:08:05,540
And so, yeah, they moved down to
Zodiac, Texas, and Lime and

1209
01:08:05,540 --> 01:08:10,380
White was the first leader of a
group that built a temple after.

1210
01:08:10,820 --> 01:08:13,140
I remember hearing that he was
he he built.

1211
01:08:13,140 --> 01:08:14,900
He was serious.
I mean, he wasn't screwing

1212
01:08:14,900 --> 01:08:16,660
around.
And live plural marriage.

1213
01:08:16,700 --> 01:08:18,060
Yep.
Yeah.

1214
01:08:18,060 --> 01:08:20,140
So that's an independent
testimony that that was a

1215
01:08:20,180 --> 01:08:23,380
measure, what I like to call the
measures of Joseph, right.

1216
01:08:23,460 --> 01:08:25,620
And that's what Brigham always
referred to them at post

1217
01:08:25,620 --> 01:08:28,779
succession crisis as well as we
are going to hold to the

1218
01:08:28,779 --> 01:08:31,430
measures of Joseph.
And you can follow anyone you

1219
01:08:31,430 --> 01:08:33,670
want.
The church can vote in Ann Lee,

1220
01:08:33,670 --> 01:08:36,710
which was like a 7th or like a
proto 7th Day Adventist

1221
01:08:36,950 --> 01:08:40,670
spiritualist leader.
And he said the church can vote

1222
01:08:40,670 --> 01:08:43,510
Ann Lee to be president of the
church, but the priest that is

1223
01:08:43,510 --> 01:08:45,790
going to go build up the Kingdom
of God and all the world.

1224
01:08:46,149 --> 01:08:48,149
Right.
You know, and to whoever will

1225
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:50,350
accept it, right?
And so it's interesting, very

1226
01:08:50,350 --> 01:08:53,310
interesting period of time to
talk about for sure.

1227
01:08:53,430 --> 01:08:57,470
I'm so glad you're covering that
too, because in today in

1228
01:08:57,470 --> 01:09:01,430
Mormonism.
A lot hinges on that secession

1229
01:09:01,430 --> 01:09:04,670
time.
A ton hinges on it.

1230
01:09:05,310 --> 01:09:14,229
If you look at just if you were
to look at how things like

1231
01:09:14,229 --> 01:09:18,069
religions get started, it's
really based off cult, kind of a

1232
01:09:18,069 --> 01:09:22,029
cult of personality.
And so if you look at the vast

1233
01:09:22,029 --> 01:09:23,750
majority of these kind of
movements.

1234
01:09:24,060 --> 01:09:26,420
They all die off with the the
first leader.

1235
01:09:26,899 --> 01:09:29,460
And so the fact that it
continues is a miracle.

1236
01:09:29,819 --> 01:09:35,140
Now, the fact that the next guy
up is in many ways the opposite

1237
01:09:35,140 --> 01:09:39,420
of Joseph Smith in personality,
it's even more amazing, right?

1238
01:09:39,420 --> 01:09:43,899
Because in Joseph you have
somebody every day I'm thinking

1239
01:09:43,899 --> 01:09:46,939
I got to be more like Joseph and
at the end I'm like, no, I'm way

1240
01:09:46,939 --> 01:09:48,220
more Brigham.
Right.

1241
01:09:48,220 --> 01:09:49,740
I just I'm right.
I'm blunt.

1242
01:09:49,859 --> 01:09:54,260
I'm to the point I I, you know
so, so identify more with

1243
01:09:54,260 --> 01:09:57,980
Brigham in that way.
But by all accounts that thing

1244
01:09:57,980 --> 01:10:00,700
should have failed after Joseph
Smith was done.

1245
01:10:00,900 --> 01:10:04,380
You have a new leader who's not
like the former leader

1246
01:10:04,380 --> 01:10:07,460
whatsoever but yet it's still
thrives.

1247
01:10:07,460 --> 01:10:08,860
So I'm really glad you're
covering.

1248
01:10:08,940 --> 01:10:12,100
That yeah, it's it's it's very
important to cover those types

1249
01:10:12,100 --> 01:10:14,060
of types of things and
especially in the succession

1250
01:10:14,060 --> 01:10:20,370
question Lyman White and again.
He was 100% sincere and and what

1251
01:10:20,370 --> 01:10:23,610
happened is actually Lime and
White and Joseph Smith were

1252
01:10:23,610 --> 01:10:27,610
having a conversation just
trying to figure it out, right.

1253
01:10:27,690 --> 01:10:30,730
There was some some heaped up
persecution that was starting to

1254
01:10:30,850 --> 01:10:33,130
really boil over there in
Illinois.

1255
01:10:33,450 --> 01:10:39,170
And just in conversation, not
Joseph saying I prophesy in the

1256
01:10:39,170 --> 01:10:40,930
name of the Lord, just in
conversation.

1257
01:10:41,610 --> 01:10:43,730
He's like well what what if we
went to Texas?

1258
01:10:44,450 --> 01:10:45,810
What if, what if we went down
there?

1259
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:48,430
Right.
And I think Mike covered it that

1260
01:10:48,430 --> 01:10:51,190
there, you know, there was a
correspondence with Sam Houston

1261
01:10:51,190 --> 01:10:53,910
and then he had offered them to
come be that buffer zone.

1262
01:10:55,150 --> 01:11:00,030
But in actual prophecy in
Brigham's presence, right.

1263
01:11:00,030 --> 01:11:02,550
And others, Joseph had
prophesied, we'll go to the

1264
01:11:02,550 --> 01:11:05,790
Rocky Mountains.
So when the martyrdom happened,

1265
01:11:05,790 --> 01:11:07,910
Lyman White was away.
I think it was Wisconsin.

1266
01:11:07,950 --> 01:11:10,630
Yeah, he was he was cutting down
pine trees or something, right?

1267
01:11:11,510 --> 01:11:14,310
He was doing a lumber job.
For the temple, exactly.

1268
01:11:14,470 --> 01:11:16,430
He wasn't around.
He wasn't around during that

1269
01:11:16,430 --> 01:11:19,910
prophecy.
So all he could hold to was what

1270
01:11:19,910 --> 01:11:22,030
Joseph had told him when they
were just having a regular

1271
01:11:22,030 --> 01:11:25,510
conversation about what if right
and was aware there was a little

1272
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:28,470
bit of a correspondence with Sam
Houston and so he was so

1273
01:11:28,470 --> 01:11:30,670
determined he was going to
fulfill Joseph's wish.

1274
01:11:30,670 --> 01:11:34,790
We're we're supposed to go to
Texas and Brigham and others

1275
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:38,510
were like we're supposed to go
to the the Rocky Mountains.

1276
01:11:38,510 --> 01:11:39,990
We need to get together as a
quorum and.

1277
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:42,840
Figure this out and and Lyman
wasn't willing to budget because

1278
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,240
he was dead sure this was
Joseph's last wish for us.

1279
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:51,120
And this is the part that we
miss in history in general, and

1280
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:58,480
especially within church.
History is we tend to look at at

1281
01:11:58,480 --> 01:12:00,200
just the superficial stuff,
right?

1282
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:02,080
We say things like, well, why
didn't Lyman?

1283
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:04,200
Why go with him?
It was obvious, right?

1284
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:06,040
If Brigham was a man, you go
with him.

1285
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:10,580
But until you get.
Get the the historical context

1286
01:12:10,580 --> 01:12:15,900
that that Lyman White isn't
trying to be a an apostate.

1287
01:12:16,060 --> 01:12:19,500
He feels he's carrying on what
Joseph talked about.

1288
01:12:19,700 --> 01:12:23,460
William Law did too.
Except for except for he decided

1289
01:12:23,460 --> 01:12:25,580
Joseph Smith was a fallen
prophet, Right.

1290
01:12:25,700 --> 01:12:27,820
But, and that's the I agree with
you.

1291
01:12:27,820 --> 01:12:30,900
I'm sorry to cut you off.
I just wanted to emphasize this

1292
01:12:30,900 --> 01:12:35,220
point just a little bit more,
because that's actually how a

1293
01:12:35,220 --> 01:12:37,020
lot of these characters will be
perpetrayed.

1294
01:12:37,340 --> 01:12:39,580
They're going to be very
relatable because we live in a

1295
01:12:39,580 --> 01:12:41,700
confusing time.
There's a lot of people that

1296
01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:44,140
don't know what to do and it was
just as confusing back then if

1297
01:12:44,140 --> 01:12:46,980
not more.
And so each of these characters

1298
01:12:47,420 --> 01:12:49,260
I think our audience is going to
relate to.

1299
01:12:49,500 --> 01:12:51,900
I'm I'm talking about your
William laws and your Lyman

1300
01:12:51,900 --> 01:12:54,380
Whites and these people that
that thought they had it figured

1301
01:12:54,380 --> 01:12:55,700
out.
But the one thing that they were

1302
01:12:55,700 --> 01:12:59,940
lacking was enough humility to
double check and to actually

1303
01:13:00,580 --> 01:13:04,620
adhere to structure and actually
be able to to go to their

1304
01:13:04,620 --> 01:13:06,780
quorums and go to their council
meetings and.

1305
01:13:07,250 --> 01:13:11,210
And be able to just get enough
of the information to or they

1306
01:13:11,210 --> 01:13:13,810
just wouldn't pray about it to
get a second witness.

1307
01:13:14,530 --> 01:13:17,450
There's there's a lot of things
like that that we definitely

1308
01:13:17,450 --> 01:13:20,690
want to show.
So in Season 6, legacy and

1309
01:13:20,690 --> 01:13:23,210
succession, things get pretty
gnarly.

1310
01:13:23,210 --> 01:13:25,450
I think as an audience you're
observing this and you're just

1311
01:13:25,450 --> 01:13:28,810
like where do we go, just like
everybody else was at that time.

1312
01:13:29,370 --> 01:13:32,050
And I wanted to also invite
Mike, correct me if I'm wrong on

1313
01:13:32,050 --> 01:13:34,290
any of this history because I
know you're more familiar with

1314
01:13:34,290 --> 01:13:35,050
it than I am.
So.

1315
01:13:35,330 --> 01:13:38,170
I was kind of thinking of
something else to kind of lead

1316
01:13:38,170 --> 01:13:39,690
into that would be fun.
You know, we're talking about

1317
01:13:39,690 --> 01:13:44,050
Lime and White and you know the
personalities are very

1318
01:13:44,050 --> 01:13:46,330
interesting and they evolve,
right.

1319
01:13:46,330 --> 01:13:48,810
And so you're you know, and so
this conversation made me

1320
01:13:48,810 --> 01:13:52,730
reflect on Brigham Young a
little bit and and it's

1321
01:13:52,730 --> 01:13:57,090
interesting because I I was just
thinking that it's really

1322
01:13:57,090 --> 01:14:00,220
unfortunate because.
It's not like Lime and White and

1323
01:14:00,220 --> 01:14:02,700
Brigham Young couldn't have
worked together, right, because

1324
01:14:02,700 --> 01:14:04,140
they did believe in mostly the
same.

1325
01:14:04,260 --> 01:14:06,580
You know, as far as I'm aware,
there was no doctrinal

1326
01:14:06,580 --> 01:14:08,100
innovations or differences,
right?

1327
01:14:08,460 --> 01:14:10,860
And see, it's a control issue.
And there's statements from

1328
01:14:10,860 --> 01:14:13,020
Brigham Young that I don't want
to use the word liberal because

1329
01:14:13,020 --> 01:14:17,540
I think it's misconstrued.
But the personality type that

1330
01:14:17,540 --> 01:14:20,860
Brigham Young seems to have in
that time period is very

1331
01:14:20,860 --> 01:14:22,380
different from what he has later
on.

1332
01:14:22,900 --> 01:14:26,180
And for example, in John D Lee's
journal, he he records Brigham

1333
01:14:26,180 --> 01:14:31,140
Young saying once we go West.
We're not going to pay.

1334
01:14:31,460 --> 01:14:32,460
We aren't.
How does he put it?

1335
01:14:33,380 --> 01:14:35,740
We are not going to pay heed to
quorums.

1336
01:14:36,260 --> 01:14:38,020
But every king and priests can
go.

1337
01:14:38,420 --> 01:14:40,740
You know where they need to go
and build up the Kingdom of God

1338
01:14:40,740 --> 01:14:42,500
and build churches.
Oh, wow.

1339
01:14:42,900 --> 01:14:46,300
You know, and that was kind of
the view that Brigham had.

1340
01:14:46,380 --> 01:14:48,820
And so it's almost.
So it makes me wonder, like, why

1341
01:14:48,820 --> 01:14:50,740
wasn't that compatible with lime
and White?

1342
01:14:50,740 --> 01:14:52,900
Because that's almost exactly
what he seemed to want to do.

1343
01:14:53,060 --> 01:14:55,300
Right.
You know and So what was it And

1344
01:14:55,300 --> 01:14:57,020
so it's but it's very
interesting and.

1345
01:14:57,510 --> 01:15:00,870
Also another anecdote too, and I
don't, I don't, I couldn't point

1346
01:15:00,870 --> 01:15:03,030
to a source but I swear I've
seen this before.

1347
01:15:03,190 --> 01:15:06,550
That's all I'll have to try to
dig it up or Brigham Young was

1348
01:15:06,550 --> 01:15:13,870
saying in those days he was he
was more carefree and jovial or

1349
01:15:14,470 --> 01:15:17,110
than than he received Kimball
was in those days.

1350
01:15:17,630 --> 01:15:20,510
Which is very that would be a
fun thing to portray in in those

1351
01:15:20,870 --> 01:15:24,900
you know episodes as well.
You know, but it was the the

1352
01:15:24,900 --> 01:15:27,740
weight, the weight of being
president of the church

1353
01:15:28,140 --> 01:15:32,020
transforms him from being kind
of a, you know, I don't want to

1354
01:15:32,020 --> 01:15:34,380
say reckless, but, you know, but
like being kind of just more

1355
01:15:34,380 --> 01:15:37,660
carefree and it burdens him and
it becomes, he becomes more

1356
01:15:39,700 --> 01:15:41,980
pragmatic, you know.
Well, yeah.

1357
01:15:42,180 --> 01:15:45,940
And and how could it not?
Right, Right.

1358
01:15:45,940 --> 01:15:47,540
How could it not?
Because now.

1359
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:50,960
Look, everyone, I shouldn't say
everyone.

1360
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:54,240
Most people see this, this
transformation of Brigham Young.

1361
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:57,640
When the secession crisis is
happening, everyone looks to

1362
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:00,040
him.
And so now you're going to do

1363
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,560
something.
And I'm sorry, this is one of

1364
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:05,320
the parts of Mormonism I love.
This is straight up gangster,

1365
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:07,560
right?
You're going to load your

1366
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:10,720
wagons.
You are going to not just leave

1367
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:13,480
Nauvoo, you are going to leave
the United States.

1368
01:16:14,070 --> 01:16:17,510
You are now going to go to some
place with a really salty lake

1369
01:16:17,510 --> 01:16:21,070
that you're not sure really
exists yet, and then out of that

1370
01:16:21,070 --> 01:16:23,710
you're going to carve out a
civilization where you hope you

1371
01:16:23,710 --> 01:16:28,510
can live unmolested and afraid.
There's no more gangster story

1372
01:16:28,510 --> 01:16:30,430
in all of American history than
that.

1373
01:16:31,350 --> 01:16:34,550
And and if I might add, since
since your audience loves

1374
01:16:34,550 --> 01:16:39,310
Brigham Young, in addition to
that, I'm going to stay a month

1375
01:16:39,310 --> 01:16:43,580
at the temple.
And work 20 hours a day doing

1376
01:16:43,580 --> 01:16:46,860
people's ordinance work just in
case they die on the planes so

1377
01:16:46,860 --> 01:16:49,900
that they are able to pass by
the Sentinels in heaven and be

1378
01:16:49,900 --> 01:16:51,860
able to go on.
Yes.

1379
01:16:52,580 --> 01:16:55,980
And, oh, and most of your, I
won't say most of your audience,

1380
01:16:55,980 --> 01:16:58,860
but most people, the only thing
they know about Brigham Young is

1381
01:16:58,860 --> 01:17:00,420
a paragraph or two that's
offensive.

1382
01:17:00,620 --> 01:17:03,340
Yeah, that's it.
But I got a book written by his

1383
01:17:03,340 --> 01:17:05,300
daughter called Brigham Young at
home.

1384
01:17:05,980 --> 01:17:09,260
I've read it twice and I've read
other.

1385
01:17:09,650 --> 01:17:11,770
Passages in the Journals of
Discourses where other people

1386
01:17:11,770 --> 01:17:14,330
will say, why do you think
Brother Brigham is so happy and

1387
01:17:14,330 --> 01:17:17,370
kind and loving?
And these are people that knew

1388
01:17:17,370 --> 01:17:20,730
him, that are painting him to be
this jovial, friendly, loving

1389
01:17:20,730 --> 01:17:22,970
person.
And in the book Brigham Young at

1390
01:17:22,970 --> 01:17:26,450
home, it paints a picture that
he's just such a sweet man.

1391
01:17:27,810 --> 01:17:29,890
He just was when he was at the
pulpit.

1392
01:17:29,890 --> 01:17:32,930
He was the lion of the Lord.
He was just like, I care about

1393
01:17:32,930 --> 01:17:34,690
the Lord and I don't care about
your feelings.

1394
01:17:35,420 --> 01:17:37,220
Right.
Well, let's and and and

1395
01:17:37,220 --> 01:17:38,260
rightfully so.
Right.

1396
01:17:38,260 --> 01:17:40,740
Because look we can make the
argument today that that's

1397
01:17:40,740 --> 01:17:43,940
what's got Mormonism and kind of
the fix it is now is trying to

1398
01:17:43,940 --> 01:17:46,940
be too catering to everybody's
feelings right.

1399
01:17:47,340 --> 01:17:50,340
Why we were playing to try to be
nice to everybody.

1400
01:17:50,860 --> 01:17:55,020
The a lot of factions in and out
of the church were fighting to

1401
01:17:55,020 --> 01:17:58,020
win and we never picked up on
that.

1402
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:02,320
Now let let me say this, you can
see why a man like Brigham would

1403
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:04,280
do, would would have to go into
that.

1404
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:08,520
So Brigham, he feels there's
many quotes where he says, I

1405
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:11,480
feel like I'm the father of a
great family, right.

1406
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:16,120
He just watched his predecessor,
his best friend, get shot down

1407
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:20,200
in cold blood with his brother.
He's looking to these other

1408
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:22,800
people whom he loves.
He makes that very clear in

1409
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:27,070
every sermon even.
Even the the, the ones that that

1410
01:18:27,070 --> 01:18:31,550
can be can seem kind of hard
that comes through that he loves

1411
01:18:31,550 --> 01:18:34,590
his people.
So this is a guy that's like

1412
01:18:34,830 --> 01:18:39,350
over my dead body, will this
happen again And if that means

1413
01:18:39,790 --> 01:18:44,070
I've got to to be the lion, so
be it.

1414
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:48,520
Or if I got to send Porter out,
so be it, right?

1415
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:50,920
I mean, that's.
That's just.

1416
01:18:51,440 --> 01:18:54,440
That's just all there is to it.
So you can understand why

1417
01:18:54,440 --> 01:18:55,880
someone like Brigham would go to
that.

1418
01:18:56,160 --> 01:18:59,600
But to your point, I've read
other accounts where he's a very

1419
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:05,440
gentle man, especially at home.
This and one of the things that

1420
01:19:05,440 --> 01:19:08,080
drives me nuts about the way
people portray Brigham.

1421
01:19:09,050 --> 01:19:11,490
Is.
Well, he just wanted women in

1422
01:19:11,490 --> 01:19:13,810
subjugation and servitude.
Really.

1423
01:19:13,810 --> 01:19:16,130
So that's why he sent him back.
He used to become doctors.

1424
01:19:17,450 --> 01:19:20,850
That's why Utah was the 1st
place where women were voting

1425
01:19:21,970 --> 01:19:24,970
and the Mormon women were so
oppressed that Martha Hughes

1426
01:19:24,970 --> 01:19:27,530
Cannon felt like she had the
latitude to run against her own

1427
01:19:27,530 --> 01:19:30,490
husband for public office and
win, right.

1428
01:19:30,490 --> 01:19:34,290
I mean so so when when you break
down all this history.

1429
01:19:35,190 --> 01:19:38,950
You get a very different picture
than the lazy historians with.

1430
01:19:40,190 --> 01:19:44,470
Well, I'd like to point out, you
know, according to some sources,

1431
01:19:44,470 --> 01:19:49,110
you know, Eliza R Snow was kind
of a preferred wife to bring him

1432
01:19:49,110 --> 01:19:50,870
young.
You have this wonderfully

1433
01:19:50,870 --> 01:19:54,350
intelligent woman in her time
period.

1434
01:19:54,430 --> 01:19:57,310
You know who it's not like this
woman was in.

1435
01:19:57,590 --> 01:19:59,430
It would be impossible to
oppress her.

1436
01:20:00,030 --> 01:20:03,520
And you have.
Her with her place at the right

1437
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:05,040
hand of Brigham Young at family
dinners.

1438
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:08,000
You know, she was the the
governing hand when he wasn't

1439
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:11,960
there in the in the family.
And so I don't know, I just when

1440
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:16,240
I look at the character of women
in Mormonism and see that, yeah,

1441
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:18,960
they were completely comfortable
with with Brigham Young being

1442
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:21,160
being the leader and the
shepherd of the flock at that

1443
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:22,080
time.
Yeah.

1444
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:27,440
Well, which which of us?
You know, having 19 wives,

1445
01:20:27,440 --> 01:20:29,000
you're only going to end up
losing one.

1446
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:33,210
Right.
They were so oppressed that his

1447
01:20:33,210 --> 01:20:37,930
percentage was over 90%
successful, successful keeping

1448
01:20:37,930 --> 01:20:42,850
them, you know, so man.
And back to Joseph again, this

1449
01:20:42,850 --> 01:20:44,970
is, this is the same thing we're
talking about is there's a lot

1450
01:20:44,970 --> 01:20:49,810
of that hearsay stuff that
there's a lot of comments Joseph

1451
01:20:50,290 --> 01:20:53,210
made in his sermons that people
nitpick and say this is the kind

1452
01:20:53,210 --> 01:20:55,370
of guy he was.
Well, we're not taking.

1453
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:58,600
Just sermons and making a
conclusion and an assumption as

1454
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:01,080
to what kind of guy there was.
But it's a sermon at a context.

1455
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:04,880
That's what a TV series can do,
as we're not just telling the

1456
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:06,960
history, we're actually giving
the context to.

1457
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:11,480
That's so important through this
process.

1458
01:21:11,480 --> 01:21:15,120
What has been the most difficult
thing to get this off the ground

1459
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:20,840
so?
Far, so far it's.

1460
01:21:24,470 --> 01:21:27,070
I'll just say it it's the rough
Stone Rolling actors.

1461
01:21:29,030 --> 01:21:31,070
I've I've had several
conversations with those that

1462
01:21:31,070 --> 01:21:33,910
are big fans of rough Stone
Rolling and and and that's not

1463
01:21:33,910 --> 01:21:35,870
the portrayal.
I'm going for it all because

1464
01:21:36,190 --> 01:21:39,230
there's a lot of stuff in there
that that isn't eyewitness

1465
01:21:39,230 --> 01:21:43,710
accounts and that's my standard
is eyewitness accounts.

1466
01:21:44,670 --> 01:21:48,910
That's been my biggest hurdle so
far is is is getting good actors

1467
01:21:48,910 --> 01:21:51,360
on board.
I think we've got some good

1468
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:54,240
historians on board and that's
to me that's the most important

1469
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:56,640
part, right?
We're at that point where we're,

1470
01:21:56,640 --> 01:21:59,120
we're looking for the right
actors and that's proven to be

1471
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,680
pretty difficult so far.
I didn't see that coming.

1472
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:04,360
I honestly thought it was going
to be money or something like.

1473
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:06,880
That you know, if it's the
Lord's will, it'll it'll show

1474
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:07,680
up.
Right.

1475
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:10,320
It's the actors.
You know, it's funny you should

1476
01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:13,880
mention Rough Stone Rolling.
I was that same Book of Mormon

1477
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:15,840
evidence conference I was
telling you about before we

1478
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:22,200
started rolling.
I was at that conference and I

1479
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:25,320
can't remember who the presenter
was, but someone showed a clip

1480
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:29,400
from a Mormon Stories interview
with John Delin where they

1481
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:34,760
credit rough stone rolling being
the switch that caused them to

1482
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:37,400
start questioning and get out of
the church.

1483
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:42,200
But yet this is a book that for
whatever reason seems to be

1484
01:22:42,200 --> 01:22:47,800
upheld within Mormon circles.
And likewise and and.

1485
01:22:48,870 --> 01:22:50,750
You guys don't have to do this.
I'll do this.

1486
01:22:51,030 --> 01:22:52,910
I'm going to take a shot at
Bushman right here.

1487
01:22:53,310 --> 01:22:56,150
He seems to be pretty big on
revisionist history.

1488
01:22:57,430 --> 01:23:01,110
There is a clip of him having a
fireside in somebody's home

1489
01:23:01,550 --> 01:23:05,750
where he says we're going to
have to change the churches that

1490
01:23:05,750 --> 01:23:08,470
the God, the narrative that
we've used for so long in the

1491
01:23:08,470 --> 01:23:15,990
church if we wish to survive as
a church which as a guy who who

1492
01:23:16,110 --> 01:23:19,960
loves history and.
I always do my best to find

1493
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:22,160
honest history until honest
history.

1494
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:25,040
That's spooky.
When you start talking about

1495
01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:29,440
changing your history, you
better have some really good

1496
01:23:29,440 --> 01:23:33,480
ground to change that on.
So you're finding that a lot of

1497
01:23:33,480 --> 01:23:39,000
people that are coming to to to
kind of, I don't know, audition

1498
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:43,350
for the part of Joseph Smith.
Have been impacted largely by

1499
01:23:43,350 --> 01:23:46,790
kind of that mindset of who
Joseph Smith was is portrayed in

1500
01:23:46,790 --> 01:23:50,470
Rough Stone Rolling.
So, so there's specific actors

1501
01:23:50,470 --> 01:23:55,070
that I wanted to use and of
course when you're pitching an

1502
01:23:55,070 --> 01:23:57,270
idea you got to tell him a
little bit about your story and

1503
01:23:57,270 --> 01:24:03,950
your approach and and my
conversations so far have led me

1504
01:24:03,950 --> 01:24:08,390
to believe that they're big fans
of Rough Stone Rolling and and

1505
01:24:09,150 --> 01:24:12,950
that approach.
And I'm not a huge advocate of

1506
01:24:12,950 --> 01:24:17,230
it.
I don't have a disrespect for

1507
01:24:17,230 --> 01:24:21,470
Bushman myself.
I think he is sincere and what

1508
01:24:21,470 --> 01:24:24,350
he's trying to do.
I don't like his approach.

1509
01:24:24,470 --> 01:24:26,550
That doesn't mean I hate him.
I don't like his approach

1510
01:24:26,910 --> 01:24:31,670
because a lot of the resource
material he uses are not

1511
01:24:31,670 --> 01:24:34,750
eyewitnesses.
And when you know the philass is

1512
01:24:34,750 --> 01:24:38,300
hurdle, but history.
You know, they're not actual

1513
01:24:38,300 --> 01:24:41,860
eyewitness accounts, even though
there are signed affidavits that

1514
01:24:41,860 --> 01:24:46,020
he is referencing that say
Joseph this or the Smith family

1515
01:24:46,020 --> 01:24:48,820
that or they were involved in a
cult magic, etcetera, etcetera,

1516
01:24:49,300 --> 01:24:52,460
when you know where that comes
from.

1517
01:24:54,060 --> 01:24:57,780
They weren't eyewitnesses, they
were hearsay historians.

1518
01:24:59,300 --> 01:25:01,860
And that's essentially what
Bushman did is he was trying to

1519
01:25:01,860 --> 01:25:04,130
be fair by telling.
Both sides of the story.

1520
01:25:04,130 --> 01:25:06,570
And he was okay if you know
Philastis hurl.

1521
01:25:06,570 --> 01:25:09,010
But I'll just give a real if you
do you know his story.

1522
01:25:09,410 --> 01:25:10,850
A little bit.
Go ahead.

1523
01:25:11,090 --> 01:25:12,690
So he's on a mission with Orson
Hyde?

1524
01:25:12,850 --> 01:25:15,010
Or was it Pratt?
It was one of the Orsons we.

1525
01:25:15,210 --> 01:25:17,330
Were talking about as if it was
Orson Hyde earlier.

1526
01:25:17,330 --> 01:25:19,330
I think it was Hyde during the
Kirtland area.

1527
01:25:19,330 --> 01:25:22,450
They're on a mission together,
and while on the mission

1528
01:25:22,450 --> 01:25:25,730
Philastis hurl but gets involved
in some promiscuous activity

1529
01:25:25,730 --> 01:25:28,330
with the ladies and Orson
Hyde's.

1530
01:25:29,020 --> 01:25:31,780
Pretty concerned about how that
looks as a as a new church.

1531
01:25:32,260 --> 01:25:34,460
And so.
When he gets back to Kirtland,

1532
01:25:34,460 --> 01:25:37,780
he reports to the High Council
that that this has happened and

1533
01:25:37,780 --> 01:25:40,580
it's not good.
And so they they call a council

1534
01:25:40,580 --> 01:25:44,460
meeting and they call Flastis
hurl, but to the carpet.

1535
01:25:44,780 --> 01:25:47,100
And he gets up and he confesses
and he says, I'm really sorry,

1536
01:25:47,100 --> 01:25:49,340
I'm going to do better, please
forgive me.

1537
01:25:49,340 --> 01:25:52,580
I promise I'll do better.
And so the High Council's ready

1538
01:25:52,580 --> 01:25:54,260
to just forgive him and move on,
right?

1539
01:25:54,940 --> 01:25:58,140
But Joseph Smith stands up and
he says.

1540
01:25:58,750 --> 01:26:02,870
I don't believe this man to be
sincere about his repentance and

1541
01:26:02,870 --> 01:26:08,350
time will prove me right.
So not only does he discern, he

1542
01:26:08,350 --> 01:26:10,030
prophesies.
Gotcha.

1543
01:26:10,270 --> 01:26:13,150
But the council is like, well,
you seem pretty sincere to us.

1544
01:26:13,150 --> 01:26:16,030
And so they they let him
continue in the church.

1545
01:26:16,430 --> 01:26:20,310
Well, he was heard to say by a
couple different people that he

1546
01:26:20,310 --> 01:26:22,230
was going to wash his hands in
Joseph Smith's blood.

1547
01:26:23,270 --> 01:26:27,630
He was so upset about it and and
sure enough, shortly after.

1548
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:30,920
He committed the same sin again.
He was cut off from the church

1549
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:33,920
and he immediately goes back to
New York and Pennsylvania and

1550
01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:38,040
it's paying people to sign
affidavits against Joseph Smith

1551
01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:40,440
and the Smith family because he
wanted to write a book that

1552
01:26:40,440 --> 01:26:44,520
would destroy their cause.
And so he gets those affidavits

1553
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:46,400
and and there there's some
stories and we're going to

1554
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:48,400
include this.
We're going to include this in

1555
01:26:48,400 --> 01:26:50,520
the series.
There's some stories where

1556
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:53,360
people refuse to give a negative
report against the Smith family

1557
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:56,960
said that this hurl but fellow
showed up and he wanted us.

1558
01:26:57,360 --> 01:26:59,600
We we told him what we knew
about The Smiths, and when he

1559
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:01,480
seemed dissatisfied with us, he
just left.

1560
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:04,480
And he went to the neighbors and
got an affidavit from them.

1561
01:27:05,480 --> 01:27:11,320
And and so he comes back to Ohio
with these affidavits and he

1562
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:14,240
wants to publish this book.
But it the contemporary of his

1563
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:19,640
Eber D Howe, who wrote the book
Mormonism unveiled, tells him

1564
01:27:19,640 --> 01:27:21,160
you've got too bad of a
reputation.

1565
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:22,880
You publish a book people are
not going to.

1566
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:26,080
So just just just sell the
affidavits to me and I'll, I'll

1567
01:27:26,080 --> 01:27:29,080
do it.
And so Ebert D Howe gets these

1568
01:27:29,080 --> 01:27:32,040
affidavits, and he writes a book
in 1834 called Mormonism

1569
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:34,280
Unveiled that book on your
shelf?

1570
01:27:34,480 --> 01:27:37,000
Rough Stone Rolling.
I dare you to look through there

1571
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,080
and see how many references and
how many footnotes say Mormonism

1572
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:43,720
unveiled in it.
And I don't think the Bushmen

1573
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:48,400
did enough research on Phelastus
Hurlbut or these affidavits that

1574
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:50,000
he paid people to write and
sign.

1575
01:27:50,980 --> 01:27:52,580
OK.
So yeah.

1576
01:27:52,580 --> 01:27:55,100
There's they're not claiming to
be eyewitnesses that, oh, it's

1577
01:27:55,100 --> 01:27:57,300
just generally known that the
Smith family's this way and the.

1578
01:27:57,340 --> 01:28:00,460
Joseph Smith Junior's this way.
They're not saying I personally

1579
01:28:00,460 --> 01:28:03,220
saw this happen.
That's a huge.

1580
01:28:03,220 --> 01:28:04,420
Difference.
That's a huge difference.

1581
01:28:04,420 --> 01:28:08,220
Now there are some like Willard
Chase saying, oh, he, you know,

1582
01:28:08,540 --> 01:28:11,020
Joseph Smith was over here
digging a will well with us.

1583
01:28:11,020 --> 01:28:16,380
And while we were digging a
well, I found a stone, You know,

1584
01:28:16,380 --> 01:28:19,110
kind of.
That stone that we called a sear

1585
01:28:19,110 --> 01:28:22,350
stone and Joseph Smith borrowed
it from me and and he used that

1586
01:28:22,350 --> 01:28:26,310
to translate the Book of Mormon.
You know, And of course in that

1587
01:28:26,310 --> 01:28:28,550
day and time, if Will or Chase
is saying this in the ripple

1588
01:28:28,550 --> 01:28:31,510
effect gets to Martin Harris and
David Whitmer before they

1589
01:28:31,510 --> 01:28:34,550
witness anything, right?
And they released something

1590
01:28:34,550 --> 01:28:37,350
saying that he just put a sear
stone in a hat and he translated

1591
01:28:37,350 --> 01:28:40,750
the Book of Mormon that way.
And they release statements

1592
01:28:40,750 --> 01:28:43,270
about the translation process
before they personally

1593
01:28:43,270 --> 01:28:44,790
witnessed.
Right.

1594
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:50,560
You see what I'm saying.
So it's good to research the

1595
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:54,360
source material as well, and the
origin of the source material.

1596
01:28:54,760 --> 01:29:00,240
Yeah, And and just that story
alone goes back to providing

1597
01:29:00,240 --> 01:29:02,480
context on who Joseph Smith was,
you said.

1598
01:29:02,480 --> 01:29:05,280
Just a small thing in there, but
it speaks.

1599
01:29:05,280 --> 01:29:08,200
Huge enemy that that's still
punching today.

1600
01:29:08,240 --> 01:29:10,960
Yeah, yeah.
But what what I was going to say

1601
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:14,480
and and then we'll go back to
that a little bit is you

1602
01:29:14,480 --> 01:29:18,090
mentioned that Joseph Smith.
Acquiesced to the Council.

1603
01:29:18,930 --> 01:29:23,650
Now if Joseph Smith was as power
hungry as what a lot of books

1604
01:29:23,850 --> 01:29:26,770
had made him out to be, he had
every opportunity.

1605
01:29:26,770 --> 01:29:28,930
Like, slow your roll, I'm the
man.

1606
01:29:29,610 --> 01:29:31,090
But he acquiesced to the
Council.

1607
01:29:31,610 --> 01:29:36,170
It's that sort of context that
gives you, in my opinion, a good

1608
01:29:36,170 --> 01:29:38,810
rounded estimation to who Joseph
Smith really was.

1609
01:29:39,410 --> 01:29:42,210
Now, back to hurlbut did you
have something before we did

1610
01:29:42,210 --> 01:29:44,210
that, Michael?
Just a tiny bit, you know the

1611
01:29:44,250 --> 01:29:47,430
similar to just.
You know, similar situation

1612
01:29:47,430 --> 01:29:51,790
happened with Sidney Rigdon and
he they were, you know, after

1613
01:29:51,790 --> 01:29:55,670
after they got out of liberty,
there was some conflict between

1614
01:29:55,670 --> 01:29:59,030
Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith.
And Joseph got to a point where

1615
01:29:59,030 --> 01:30:00,830
he didn't want him as a
counselor anymore and they got

1616
01:30:00,830 --> 01:30:04,390
in the General Conference and
Joseph Smith brought forth his

1617
01:30:04,390 --> 01:30:07,190
own evidence saying why he
didn't have confidence in Sidney

1618
01:30:07,190 --> 01:30:10,510
Rigdon anymore.
And but the church sustained him

1619
01:30:10,510 --> 01:30:13,430
in his calling anyway, right.
And he said, OK, that's fine.

1620
01:30:13,790 --> 01:30:17,200
And so Sidney Rigon was.
Considered a counselor in the

1621
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:18,600
First Presidency to Joseph
Smith.

1622
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:20,400
Still.
Because that's that's what they

1623
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:24,080
decided on, yeah.
And then even though he wouldn't

1624
01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:27,200
attend meetings and distanced
himself, you know?

1625
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:34,880
In in your role as the historian
on here, that's a big deal.

1626
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:37,080
I mean that's that's a huge
thing in this thing.

1627
01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:39,400
How how are you holding up under
that?

1628
01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:41,080
Oh, it's going to be
interesting.

1629
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:43,760
I just had my first baby, and
that's just.

1630
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:46,890
So, yeah, no, it's going to.
My life is changing a lot.

1631
01:30:46,890 --> 01:30:53,850
But ultimately the greatest joy
I've ever experienced in my life

1632
01:30:53,850 --> 01:30:56,450
is preaching the gospel and
doing the work of the Lord.

1633
01:30:57,130 --> 01:31:00,570
And if this can be a medium
through which that can be

1634
01:31:00,570 --> 01:31:03,530
accomplished to help strengthen
those people's testimonies and

1635
01:31:03,530 --> 01:31:05,690
there's there's nothing that
that will take precedence.

1636
01:31:05,970 --> 01:31:08,610
Yeah, no, it's it's hugely
important.

1637
01:31:09,130 --> 01:31:11,130
It's it's one of those things
that.

1638
01:31:11,880 --> 01:31:14,160
Again, just going back to
history, and right now it's

1639
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:17,040
needed more than ever.
It seems like for some reason we

1640
01:31:17,040 --> 01:31:21,160
as Mormons of all stripes have
gotten to this place where we're

1641
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:26,440
we're questioning the
authenticity of Joseph Smith and

1642
01:31:26,440 --> 01:31:31,520
certainly that secession era,
which is, is hugely, hugely

1643
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:34,200
important.
So what what you guys are doing

1644
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:38,630
is, is super, super cool.
We're pretty excited.

1645
01:31:38,630 --> 01:31:40,190
I think he's more excited than I
am.

1646
01:31:40,190 --> 01:31:44,150
But no, he's brother.
David is doing a phenomenal job

1647
01:31:44,150 --> 01:31:48,030
and I even think that he's well,
he's he's probably more

1648
01:31:48,030 --> 01:31:50,630
knowledgeable about certain
things in the episode, the

1649
01:31:50,870 --> 01:31:53,150
things that he wants to tell
that I am at this point.

1650
01:31:53,150 --> 01:31:55,550
But we're going to make a pretty
good team, I think.

1651
01:31:56,030 --> 01:32:00,070
But ultimately my decision was
based off of the the most joy

1652
01:32:00,070 --> 01:32:03,390
I've ever had in my life comes
from preaching the gospel and

1653
01:32:03,390 --> 01:32:06,720
and sharing that and so.
Ultimately with whatever other

1654
01:32:06,720 --> 01:32:09,920
priorities are in my life,
trying to serve the Lord and his

1655
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:12,840
children come first.
But I've you know, I've always

1656
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:17,600
been you know I've always been
attracted to history So it's not

1657
01:32:17,600 --> 01:32:20,040
like this is going to be a huge
obstacle for me to really get my

1658
01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:23,560
nose deep in in any book has
shoved in front of me or

1659
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:27,720
whatever I have to tackle to
help collaborate with this you

1660
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:30,810
know and so and.
It's fun to me.

1661
01:32:30,810 --> 01:32:34,490
It's fun to be able to find
these rhetorical connections or

1662
01:32:34,490 --> 01:32:37,450
historical connections in one
journal account and then

1663
01:32:37,450 --> 01:32:40,930
another.
And you can like almost weave A

1664
01:32:40,930 --> 01:32:43,050
tapestry with all this different
information.

1665
01:32:43,050 --> 01:32:47,330
And so it's a fun challenge.
And when it really get, when we

1666
01:32:47,330 --> 01:32:50,250
really get into it, it's it's
just going to be a blast.

1667
01:32:50,450 --> 01:32:51,890
What's been the hardest part
about it?

1668
01:32:52,170 --> 01:32:54,810
Well, I don't know if I've
really done too much so far.

1669
01:32:54,810 --> 01:32:57,130
You know, we're still in the
early stages.

1670
01:32:58,350 --> 01:33:00,150
You know, I don't.
I couldn't say what's been hard

1671
01:33:00,750 --> 01:33:04,230
at the moment.
Knowing what you're going to do

1672
01:33:04,230 --> 01:33:05,710
next.
Yeah, knowing what I'm going to

1673
01:33:05,710 --> 01:33:08,230
do next I guess is hard.
You know we we we shot a little

1674
01:33:08,230 --> 01:33:10,990
promotional thing or we've been
working on it piece by piece and

1675
01:33:10,990 --> 01:33:16,030
we we got a shot up in Richmond,
MO you know where David Whitmer

1676
01:33:16,030 --> 01:33:19,270
is buried you know and that'll
be a fun little thing to share

1677
01:33:19,270 --> 01:33:22,310
when when that gets fully edited
and done and.

1678
01:33:23,030 --> 01:33:24,830
Yeah, that's my first time
really being on camera.

1679
01:33:24,830 --> 01:33:26,590
So that was, that was
interesting.

1680
01:33:27,190 --> 01:33:30,990
I guess that might have been the
hardest thing because I have a I

1681
01:33:30,990 --> 01:33:33,630
have a pretty close to like what
they call an idetic memory, you

1682
01:33:33,630 --> 01:33:35,670
know, a little bit, you know, if
I read it, I'll remember it,

1683
01:33:35,670 --> 01:33:36,790
right.
Kind of a thing.

1684
01:33:37,150 --> 01:33:39,310
But then you could couple that
with the anxiety of being on

1685
01:33:39,310 --> 01:33:40,790
camera.
And I'm reading the script and

1686
01:33:40,790 --> 01:33:44,150
I'm trying to get this.
We had to take a few takes, you

1687
01:33:44,150 --> 01:33:47,310
know, and get it.
Oh, he he's a champion, is he?

1688
01:33:47,750 --> 01:33:50,150
But it was so much fun.
Nice.

1689
01:33:50,310 --> 01:33:53,750
Nice.
What's what have been some of

1690
01:33:53,750 --> 01:33:56,270
the biggest surprises through
this process to you?

1691
01:33:57,790 --> 01:34:01,750
You know, probably the probably
the challenges of finding the

1692
01:34:02,590 --> 01:34:06,630
the accurate source material
amidst all the murky stuff.

1693
01:34:07,270 --> 01:34:08,630
Does that make sense what I'm
saying?

1694
01:34:10,110 --> 01:34:14,510
Because I mean, so far my
biggest job's been history, you

1695
01:34:14,510 --> 01:34:18,190
know, because I'm trying to
outline the six seasons, so I've

1696
01:34:18,190 --> 01:34:20,950
got season one outlined in nine
episodes.

1697
01:34:21,480 --> 01:34:25,720
And and I've outlined scene by
scene what those scenes are,

1698
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:27,920
where it's located in the
characters that are going to be

1699
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:32,720
in the scene, that has not been
translated into a script.

1700
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:37,040
It's just an outline.
And that's me waking up at 4:00

1701
01:34:37,040 --> 01:34:39,240
o'clock in the morning where I
won't be bothered.

1702
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:41,640
And researching several
different source materials,

1703
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:45,400
comparing and seeing if there's
enough substance there to

1704
01:34:45,400 --> 01:34:47,760
actually have it fit.
The law of witnesses.

1705
01:34:48,640 --> 01:34:52,590
But I've got to say.
That I think, I think Mike's a

1706
01:34:52,590 --> 01:34:54,830
champion.
I'm so grateful for him

1707
01:34:55,150 --> 01:35:01,590
embracing this because not just
the gift that God's given him

1708
01:35:02,030 --> 01:35:03,430
in.
What was the word you used

1709
01:35:03,430 --> 01:35:04,230
something?
Memory.

1710
01:35:05,030 --> 01:35:08,510
I did it okay like a
photographic memory.

1711
01:35:09,710 --> 01:35:11,670
Sure.
Well, it's really close.

1712
01:35:11,870 --> 01:35:13,950
It's a great gift.
But it's his conviction for the

1713
01:35:13,950 --> 01:35:15,950
gospel.
And that's where my heart is,

1714
01:35:15,950 --> 01:35:20,350
too, is I love the gospel.
Again, I'm with John Taylor.

1715
01:35:20,470 --> 01:35:23,670
Nobody's done more for the
salvation of man save Jesus only

1716
01:35:23,670 --> 01:35:29,030
than Joseph Smith did, right?
And and because he was such a

1717
01:35:30,550 --> 01:35:36,350
advocate for the gospel and
really made it a lot simpler for

1718
01:35:36,350 --> 01:35:38,870
us, then that's stuff that needs
to be told.

1719
01:35:38,870 --> 01:35:40,470
This is a this is a gospel
mission.

1720
01:35:40,630 --> 01:35:43,990
It's essentially what it is, you
know, and I've said it once,

1721
01:35:43,990 --> 01:35:47,110
I'll say it again.
Most of the time, what you find

1722
01:35:47,110 --> 01:35:49,790
when people are making films is
people trying to glorify their

1723
01:35:49,790 --> 01:35:52,110
own name.
You know, actors just want to

1724
01:35:52,110 --> 01:35:54,310
build their name.
And writers, you can build their

1725
01:35:54,310 --> 01:35:56,150
name up, build their name up,
because then they'll have

1726
01:35:56,150 --> 01:35:58,870
better, bigger, better jobs and
maybe somebody in Hollywood will

1727
01:35:58,870 --> 01:36:01,310
notice them.
No, our job is to glorify the

1728
01:36:01,310 --> 01:36:05,510
name of God.
And so the more that we glorify

1729
01:36:05,510 --> 01:36:08,630
our own names, the more we are
thwarting the work of glorifying

1730
01:36:08,630 --> 01:36:11,550
the name of God.
Thus the alias.

1731
01:36:12,110 --> 01:36:13,670
Nice.
And so it stays that way.

1732
01:36:14,350 --> 01:36:16,830
The the people that watch this,
I wanted to focus as much as

1733
01:36:16,830 --> 01:36:20,710
they can on the content.
Well, this one's going to be

1734
01:36:20,710 --> 01:36:23,790
audio only because I don't want
to compromise you and then you.

1735
01:36:24,350 --> 01:36:26,550
No, that's that's fine.
I mean, it'll all come out in

1736
01:36:26,550 --> 01:36:30,310
the wash someday, but it's just
that the focus is to always have

1737
01:36:30,310 --> 01:36:31,750
an eye single to the glory of
God.

1738
01:36:31,750 --> 01:36:33,790
And like Mike says, it's a
missionary work.

1739
01:36:33,950 --> 01:36:37,990
The most joy he's ever gotten is
in preaching the gospel, and I

1740
01:36:37,990 --> 01:36:42,120
relate to that 100% and.
If Joseph and Brigham and John

1741
01:36:42,120 --> 01:36:45,200
Taylor were still alive today, I
believe wholeheartedly they

1742
01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:48,400
would be using the mediums of
film to help spread the gospel

1743
01:36:48,920 --> 01:36:51,600
because they used the best
resource they had, the printing

1744
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:55,280
press in their day to spread the
gospel, and therefore that's

1745
01:36:55,280 --> 01:36:57,080
what we endeavor to do on this
mission.

1746
01:36:57,320 --> 01:36:59,480
Awesome.
One last question.

1747
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:02,840
Sure.
What's been the biggest surprise

1748
01:37:02,840 --> 01:37:05,000
to you through this?
Oh boy.

1749
01:37:08,160 --> 01:37:10,900
Good question.
Good question.

1750
01:37:11,860 --> 01:37:13,500
What's one thing maybe you've
learned?

1751
01:37:18,860 --> 01:37:24,620
I think the biggest surprise to
me is how many people are losing

1752
01:37:24,620 --> 01:37:28,020
their testimony, if they had any
at all, because they're not

1753
01:37:28,020 --> 01:37:30,420
given the right history, They're
not given actual history.

1754
01:37:30,420 --> 01:37:32,900
They're given the year, say,
history, right.

1755
01:37:33,220 --> 01:37:34,500
I heard this.
Oh yeah.

1756
01:37:34,500 --> 01:37:37,140
So that person did that because
someone, someone so heard it.

1757
01:37:37,140 --> 01:37:38,660
So it must have happened.
Right.

1758
01:37:38,660 --> 01:37:41,420
That's been the biggest surprise
to me is how many people in our

1759
01:37:41,420 --> 01:37:45,740
faith are just buying into
hearsay history wholesale.

1760
01:37:46,660 --> 01:37:50,540
And and it's just motivated me
even more to work on this and

1761
01:37:50,540 --> 01:37:53,300
try to get out the actual
history, create a spark, see if

1762
01:37:53,300 --> 01:37:55,500
they'll read about it and pray
about it and get that testimony

1763
01:37:55,500 --> 01:37:56,940
that they need.
Awesome.

1764
01:37:57,500 --> 01:37:59,260
Have you cast the part of Joseph
Smith?

1765
01:37:59,340 --> 01:38:00,820
I have not.
Okay.

1766
01:38:01,340 --> 01:38:03,900
What can the audience do to help
with this?

1767
01:38:04,380 --> 01:38:07,180
Okay, the biggest thing is we're
about to release an ad.

1768
01:38:07,840 --> 01:38:10,280
It's going to be a 4 minute ad
we're we're we're announcing

1769
01:38:10,280 --> 01:38:13,280
this endeavor and we're
announcing the short film the

1770
01:38:13,320 --> 01:38:15,960
audience depending on when you
release this.

1771
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:19,520
I'm holding an audition in Provo
July 15th.

1772
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:21,720
That's this coming Saturday.
So I don't know if it'll be

1773
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:25,920
released by then but I'd like to
I'd like people to come out and

1774
01:38:25,920 --> 01:38:29,040
audition okay.
But the other thing is raise

1775
01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:31,400
awareness.
Raise much awareness that the

1776
01:38:31,400 --> 01:38:34,200
shortest films going to be
released and.

1777
01:38:35,810 --> 01:38:38,770
Anybody that wants to help
spread the gospel, I'm not

1778
01:38:38,770 --> 01:38:42,930
looking for funds right now.
But when we release the short

1779
01:38:42,930 --> 01:38:45,850
film, that's when it's go time.
That's when we're going to have

1780
01:38:46,010 --> 01:38:49,010
the outline done for each of the
six seasons.

1781
01:38:49,010 --> 01:38:51,410
That's when we're going to have
scripts for season one ready in

1782
01:38:51,410 --> 01:38:55,410
place and we're going to say
okay, because anybody that wants

1783
01:38:55,410 --> 01:38:58,650
to invest or donate, maybe they
need a peek at the script.

1784
01:38:58,850 --> 01:39:00,650
And so I want to make sure that
those scripts are there,

1785
01:39:00,810 --> 01:39:03,610
especially with like the the the
Church Historian department.

1786
01:39:03,610 --> 01:39:06,150
I talked to them.
The Church History department,

1787
01:39:06,150 --> 01:39:08,670
sorry, Church history
preservation.

1788
01:39:10,910 --> 01:39:13,630
That's the department that
basically is managing properties

1789
01:39:13,630 --> 01:39:16,230
like Navu and Palmyra and all
these different.

1790
01:39:16,230 --> 01:39:20,270
I've talked to them and they're
willing to let us go and film

1791
01:39:21,470 --> 01:39:24,750
Okay at some of these actual
sites, but they need to see the

1792
01:39:24,750 --> 01:39:27,820
scripts.
Right, because you can't just

1793
01:39:27,820 --> 01:39:30,700
say, oh, I'm making a story
about Joseph Smith, Will you

1794
01:39:30,700 --> 01:39:32,100
please let me film your
flexible?

1795
01:39:32,100 --> 01:39:34,780
What are you saying about it?
Right, right.

1796
01:39:34,780 --> 01:39:38,220
You know, and so, so we want to
have that in place so we can get

1797
01:39:38,220 --> 01:39:41,020
the proper locations etcetera
and to be able to say hey,

1798
01:39:41,020 --> 01:39:43,940
anybody that's thinking of of
investing or donating to push

1799
01:39:43,940 --> 01:39:46,020
forward the gospel, Here's the
script.

1800
01:39:46,900 --> 01:39:49,100
Nice, nice.
When do you think that Short

1801
01:39:49,100 --> 01:39:50,180
will be released?
Do you have a?

1802
01:39:50,220 --> 01:39:53,740
Time.
I don't have an actual date, but

1803
01:39:54,060 --> 01:39:55,800
by the end of 23.
Okay.

1804
01:39:56,040 --> 01:39:58,720
All right.
When you, when you get set to

1805
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:02,720
release that, let me know, Kick
me out of copy and I'll blast

1806
01:40:02,720 --> 01:40:05,280
that thing as far as I can.
Because I think what you're

1807
01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:07,160
doing is so important for two
reasons.

1808
01:40:07,920 --> 01:40:13,560
One is this idea of telling true
history, and there's a few

1809
01:40:13,560 --> 01:40:16,600
people out there doing the job.
There's there's you.

1810
01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:18,480
There's, there's Hannah
Stoddard.

1811
01:40:19,350 --> 01:40:21,390
I feel like by and large, she
does a good job.

1812
01:40:21,470 --> 01:40:23,870
She's one of my historians.
Is she okay?

1813
01:40:24,030 --> 01:40:25,830
She's gonna be on the She's
awesome.

1814
01:40:25,830 --> 01:40:27,710
She's gonna be on the podcast on
Tuesday.

1815
01:40:27,910 --> 01:40:30,510
That's fantastic.
For her second time.

1816
01:40:30,990 --> 01:40:33,590
I just love her and the Joseph
Smith Foundation on what they

1817
01:40:33,590 --> 01:40:36,510
do.
So I feel like there's folks out

1818
01:40:36,510 --> 01:40:42,470
there telling good history.
And so this helps us to be able

1819
01:40:42,470 --> 01:40:45,390
to connect with Joseph Smith on
a deeper level.

1820
01:40:45,830 --> 01:40:48,950
One of the things that I've said
about the founders is that we

1821
01:40:48,950 --> 01:40:50,750
didn't do a good job of
humanizing them.

1822
01:40:50,750 --> 01:40:52,830
We turned them all into marble
statues.

1823
01:40:53,910 --> 01:40:57,350
And unless you go dig that's
what you're going to know is a

1824
01:40:57,350 --> 01:41:00,830
lot of hearsay, history and and
not get the full story.

1825
01:41:00,830 --> 01:41:04,110
So to be able to connect with
Joseph Smith in this way is

1826
01:41:04,350 --> 01:41:10,690
absolutely fantastic to tell it.
Through through film is even

1827
01:41:10,690 --> 01:41:14,650
more important and and that's
for the reason that we kind of

1828
01:41:14,650 --> 01:41:17,770
outlined at the beginning,
nobody wants to tell these

1829
01:41:17,770 --> 01:41:20,490
stories because they're not The
Avengers movies.

1830
01:41:20,490 --> 01:41:25,370
It's not CGI, it's not a summer
blockbuster so to speak, but.

1831
01:41:25,930 --> 01:41:30,010
If there's one thing that this
The Sound of Freedom proved and

1832
01:41:30,010 --> 01:41:33,370
and other movies I should say is
that people are hungry for.

1833
01:41:33,370 --> 01:41:35,370
This the chosen.
The chosen.

1834
01:41:35,410 --> 01:41:37,530
That thing is that thing.
And that blew me away.

1835
01:41:37,530 --> 01:41:40,810
You know, I'm, I'm skeptical of
being from an LDS, being from an

1836
01:41:40,810 --> 01:41:44,210
LDS background and then and
serving a mission in, you know,

1837
01:41:44,490 --> 01:41:47,450
essentially was a Northern Bible
belt and like the slamming from

1838
01:41:47,450 --> 01:41:50,970
other Christians that I got you
know, about my faith and.

1839
01:41:51,360 --> 01:41:54,040
Like they made me feel like I
needed to like get their

1840
01:41:54,040 --> 01:41:57,280
validation for my belief in
Christ, you know, but that like

1841
01:41:57,720 --> 01:42:00,360
so for it to be.
But they no, it handled it so

1842
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:03,960
well and they brought in a
pretty eclectic team to bring it

1843
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:04,600
to pass.
Right.

1844
01:42:04,600 --> 01:42:07,600
They had you know some you know
members of the church.

1845
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:11,040
They had Eastern Orthodox you
know type Christian guys and a

1846
01:42:11,360 --> 01:42:15,400
Messianic Jewish rabbi and it's
created a really good blend and

1847
01:42:15,400 --> 01:42:20,000
and for me being staunchly
Mormon, you know that was.

1848
01:42:20,910 --> 01:42:24,590
I saw nothing offensive, at
least in the first season for

1849
01:42:24,590 --> 01:42:27,630
sure That and I just loved it.
I loved the way they approached

1850
01:42:27,630 --> 01:42:29,950
it.
I felt the spirit and the way

1851
01:42:29,950 --> 01:42:33,790
that they like for example.
And you guys probably picked up

1852
01:42:33,790 --> 01:42:38,030
on this too, is it made you
relate to the disciples to to

1853
01:42:38,030 --> 01:42:41,950
who Christ had chosen, right.
And it's it's as much about them

1854
01:42:41,990 --> 01:42:45,790
and then by proxy us as it is
about Christ.

1855
01:42:46,150 --> 01:42:47,870
And that was a beautiful thing
to me.

1856
01:42:48,150 --> 01:42:51,870
And I could relate to Peter and
his struggles financially and

1857
01:42:51,870 --> 01:42:54,990
and the stresses and I all these
things and tax evasion, you

1858
01:42:54,990 --> 01:42:57,030
know, or whatever.
Not that I'm not that I'm not

1859
01:42:57,030 --> 01:43:02,910
paying taxes, you know, but
those stories and making

1860
01:43:02,910 --> 01:43:05,630
Matthew, you know who he was and
all these things.

1861
01:43:06,750 --> 01:43:11,430
And so I guess if I hadn't put
on this, like, if we could keep

1862
01:43:11,430 --> 01:43:14,210
that same spirit.
That with what we're doing here,

1863
01:43:14,490 --> 01:43:16,650
that would be like the the
greatest thing.

1864
01:43:17,250 --> 01:43:19,730
Certainly.
I gotta, I gotta say this too.

1865
01:43:19,810 --> 01:43:24,730
Most Jesus films don't turn out
great, right?

1866
01:43:24,810 --> 01:43:29,450
Just just from a cinematography
point of view, just from from

1867
01:43:29,450 --> 01:43:31,130
from storytelling.
It's not great.

1868
01:43:31,490 --> 01:43:34,650
I mean, I think there's the
chosen, it's way up here.

1869
01:43:34,650 --> 01:43:38,330
Then you have The Passion of the
Christ and then there's. 50 feet

1870
01:43:38,330 --> 01:43:42,410
of just crud underneath that.
So they did a good job and

1871
01:43:42,410 --> 01:43:45,250
that's why I'm so excited for
this project with Joseph Smith.

1872
01:43:46,610 --> 01:43:50,530
So anyway, is there a website
anybody can visit yet or

1873
01:43:50,530 --> 01:43:53,210
anything like that?
Just go to Facebook and search

1874
01:43:53,210 --> 01:43:56,570
Zion Productions.
There is a page there that's

1875
01:43:56,570 --> 01:43:59,330
where to follow for any news and
updates and anything that we've

1876
01:43:59,330 --> 01:44:01,370
got going right now because we
don't have a website quite

1877
01:44:01,370 --> 01:44:02,450
developed.
Perfect.

1878
01:44:02,450 --> 01:44:05,650
I'll put that link in the.
In the show notes as well, so

1879
01:44:05,690 --> 01:44:06,930
people can do that.
Thank you.

1880
01:44:07,210 --> 01:44:09,090
Anything else before we wrap up,
gentlemen?

1881
01:44:09,850 --> 01:44:11,770
Yes.
One one other thing in reference

1882
01:44:11,770 --> 01:44:15,570
to the Chosen.
So I know Dallas Jenkins, yeah,

1883
01:44:15,570 --> 01:44:18,050
he's the director of the Chosen
and I actually had conversations

1884
01:44:18,050 --> 01:44:20,690
with him before he started it.
And I just want to tell it just

1885
01:44:20,930 --> 01:44:24,170
a little tiny bit of his story
because because he was involved

1886
01:44:24,170 --> 01:44:27,490
in Hollywood, okay, we we talked
about Hollywood earlier, he was

1887
01:44:27,490 --> 01:44:30,530
involved in Hollywood and NBC
had hired him to make a movie

1888
01:44:30,530 --> 01:44:32,170
called The Resurrection of Gavin
Stone.

1889
01:44:33,300 --> 01:44:36,180
Right.
And it was supposed to be his

1890
01:44:36,180 --> 01:44:40,660
calling card in in Hollywood and
the movie gets released in a

1891
01:44:40,660 --> 01:44:42,780
bombs it bombs hard at the box
office.

1892
01:44:43,100 --> 01:44:46,500
And he was devastated.
He he thought that's the end of

1893
01:44:46,500 --> 01:44:48,940
my career that I I don't know
what else I can do.

1894
01:44:48,940 --> 01:44:52,300
And so he just goes back to his
humble little church and and

1895
01:44:52,300 --> 01:44:56,620
he's just like well why couldn't
we just make something about

1896
01:44:56,620 --> 01:44:58,420
Jesus Christ's birth for
Christmas.

1897
01:44:59,500 --> 01:45:01,860
And thus was born the 20 minutes
short of the.

1898
01:45:02,550 --> 01:45:04,470
Birth of Christ from the
perspective of that shepherd

1899
01:45:04,470 --> 01:45:11,270
which evolved into the Chosen
today and again he see the way

1900
01:45:11,270 --> 01:45:15,950
that he tells the story is that
God purposely made that movie

1901
01:45:15,990 --> 01:45:21,910
bomb to get him out of Hollywood
because he was called to make

1902
01:45:21,910 --> 01:45:24,670
the Chosen.
And if that movie movie had it

1903
01:45:24,670 --> 01:45:27,230
to any degree of success, he'd
still be in Hollywood trying to

1904
01:45:27,230 --> 01:45:28,550
push it.
Gotcha.

1905
01:45:28,750 --> 01:45:31,190
And I just wanted to mention
that.

1906
01:45:32,140 --> 01:45:36,980
And now he's convicted and and
spreading Jesus Christ and his

1907
01:45:36,980 --> 01:45:39,940
apostleship in the Chosen.
And he's got some amazing,

1908
01:45:40,020 --> 01:45:42,700
amazing testimonies to share.
So I'm a huge advocate of the

1909
01:45:42,700 --> 01:45:44,380
Chosen and I like their
approach.

1910
01:45:44,700 --> 01:45:49,900
And this, if I was to put it in
a nutshell, is the Chosen for

1911
01:45:49,900 --> 01:45:51,540
Mormons.
That's awesome.

1912
01:45:52,300 --> 01:45:56,740
That's awesome.
I'm going to make you look

1913
01:45:56,740 --> 01:45:59,140
first, I want to offer.
If you need an extra, let me

1914
01:45:59,140 --> 01:46:01,300
know, but you're going to need a
really wide lens.

1915
01:46:02,110 --> 01:46:05,510
But I can.
I can certainly do that next

1916
01:46:07,830 --> 01:46:11,310
after this gets done.
You could do John C Bennett.

1917
01:46:12,350 --> 01:46:13,750
I'm kidding.
Was he a big fat guy?

1918
01:46:14,630 --> 01:46:15,190
I'm.
I'm good.

1919
01:46:15,190 --> 01:46:17,870
Calling it like, I don't know.
Yeah, well.

1920
01:46:18,550 --> 01:46:20,150
Yeah, Make him a member of the
First Presidency.

1921
01:46:20,190 --> 01:46:21,910
Make him Willow Richards.
There we go.

1922
01:46:21,950 --> 01:46:22,790
There we go.
He's a big guy.

1923
01:46:23,390 --> 01:46:25,550
I'm just kidding.
I have no desire to be on film.

1924
01:46:25,750 --> 01:46:29,670
Nobody needs to see that.
But but.

1925
01:46:31,100 --> 01:46:33,180
But you get this off the ground,
this goes well.

1926
01:46:33,180 --> 01:46:34,580
You should do something on
Washington.

1927
01:46:34,580 --> 01:46:37,300
I'm just saying no one's been
able to do Washington yet.

1928
01:46:37,340 --> 01:46:38,820
Washington's one of my heroes,
too.

1929
01:46:38,860 --> 01:46:41,580
Yeah, absolutely he is.
He was a man of God.

1930
01:46:41,580 --> 01:46:43,940
He died a man of God, and he's
definitely his.

1931
01:46:44,060 --> 01:46:45,620
His story definitely needs told
as well.

1932
01:46:45,820 --> 01:46:47,860
Yeah, Yep, Yep.
Awesome.

1933
01:46:48,420 --> 01:46:49,900
Gentlemen, you guys are rock
stars.

1934
01:46:49,900 --> 01:46:50,980
I appreciate.
It as are you.

1935
01:46:50,980 --> 01:46:52,300
Thank you so much.
Alright, thank you.

1936
01:46:52,580 --> 01:46:53,260
Bye everybody.