Episode #176: The Temple Covenants Series-PT.6 The Oath Of Vengeance W/Ben Shaffer

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The you're listening to the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Ben, how's it going, man?
Going well.

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Good.
Glad to be on with you.

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Me too.
So I got to tell you that last

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episode we did on, I think it
was the King Fall at Discourse.

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Yes, King Fawlett, one of the
greatest speeches I think Joseph

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Smith ever gave.
Maybe ever, right?

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I mean as far as content just
found.

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Maybe one of the greatest
speeches ever given, right,

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Right.
It's it's up there with a Sermon

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on the Mount in my mind as being
like central teachings that

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really define what it means for
us to have a relationship with

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God.
Absolutely.

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But anyway, I got great reviews
off that.

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They loved what it was you you
had to say on that.

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So good on you and I'm excited
for this one.

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This is a can't remember what
number it is in the installment,

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but we're recording this in
January and I imagine this will

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be out mid to late February.
But we're going to talk about

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the the Oath of Vengeance.
And this is something that, I

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mean, I've seen it make even
fundamentalist a little

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squeamish at times, right?
And so something that as I dove

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into it, I found super important
that this is more than just

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something ugly or something even
just necessary, right?

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This is something that I think
we can benefit from for sure.

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Yep.
So take us away, brother.

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OK.
Well, there, it's interesting

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because a big part of the con
text here is that Mormon temple

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ceremonies, right, have a lot of
things in them that are not for

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the uninitiated.
The idea is, is that these

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sacred ceremonies, these sacred
covenants are supposed to be

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made for people who are, are
supposed to learn something deep

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and profound out of it.
And therefore it's not something

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that's just paraded for the
world, right?

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It's sacred.
And that's why people often say,

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well, it's also secret,
therefore, right.

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So there's a lot of things that
we promised not to disclose, but

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the oath of vengeance is
interestingly something that you

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promise exactly the opposite, or
at least again, when I say

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people promise exactly the
opposite, it is worth pointing

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out that the LDS Church has not
used this oath for a very, very

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long time.
There's, I, I think in the

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mainstream LDS church, I'm not
sure if there's anybody still

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alive even who would have done
this oath.

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But there was one of the
covenants of the temple and it's

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still one of the consequences of
the temple in my belief.

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But the mainstream of this
church just has done away with

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it.
And, and instead of promising to

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keep this secret or, or private
or only for the temple, the oath

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of vengeance, you promise
exactly the opposite.

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You promise that you will teach
this to your children and your

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children's children to the third
and 4th generation.

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In other words, you will teach
about this sacred principle to

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everybody, right?
And, and even to make sure that

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you carry it on generation after
generation that everyone will

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know about it.
So, so this is something I feel

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that I can speak very openly,
very freely about is this temple

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covenant.
And, and hopefully it will be

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enlightening and, and, and
helpful to others because I

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really believe that this is a
sacred covenant that is meant to

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really help the whole world.
It's a beautiful thing, in my

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opinion.
Now it's also become a

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controversial thing.
So we got to talk about that

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too.
So, Gee, where should we start

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the history?
The let's let's start, let's

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start, let's start the history.
Well, I guess we could, we could

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hit the actual oath itself a
couple times through this,

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right.
So let's start out with what the

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oath actually is.
And again, because, because

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it's, it's one of the few things
in in the temple ceremony, like

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obviously we receive tokens and
signs and those things, but

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we're commanded not to reveal
those outside the temple, right?

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Exactly.
This oath and our garment is

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really the only thing that
leaves with us so to.

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Right.
And and right.

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And like I was just saying,
we're supposed to talk about it.

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So it's providing, right.
So the oath itself, the oath

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itself, there's been a couple
different, slightly different

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versions over the years that
that'll we'll get into that,

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into the history.
But it basically is, and these

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words are in every version, is
that we covenant and promise

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that we will pray and that we
will never cease to pray, and

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that we will never cease to
importune high heaven to avenge

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the blood of the innocent.
Right.

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Now then there's a couple of
differences.

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People talk about whether or not
the blood of the innocent refers

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to the prophets.
So one of the things they did in

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pioneers times was at that point
they would say eventually the

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blood of the innocent prophets
upon the heads of this nation.

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That's where it got really
controversial.

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That was one of the earliest
versions had that phrase in

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there and that that phrase was
considered controversial because

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they're saying, wait a second,
are you saying that you are

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hoping that God punishes the
nation?

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Maybe literally the United
States of America for, for

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killing the prophets.
Of course, the assumption would

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therefore be that's probably
Joseph and Hiram and things like

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that.
So there was there was a pioneer

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version that included those
those words and that made people

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very nervous that came up in the
rude, the rude Reed Smoot

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hearings.
It was called right.

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Reed Smoot was an apostle.
He was also elected to become a

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senator and the Senate was
trying to decide whether or not

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they were going to seat him or
not.

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I would say The funny thing
about those hearings, this was

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in 1904, in 1904, one of the
funny things to me about those

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hearings is that they were
basically trying to answer the

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question of can you be a Mormon
and be an American?

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And that's something we take for
granted today, of course, right?

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Almost all Americans, almost all
Mormons are red blooded

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Americans that love this country
and we're considered the most

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American religion.
I mean, Americanism and

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Mormonism go so hand in hand in
so many people's minds.

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It's kind of bizarre to realize
that at the time that was

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considered to be possibly
completely incompatible.

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You know I find this
interesting, right?

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Because it's not really that
long ago that we have a very

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similar discussion around JFK
and his Catholicism, right?

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JFK has to go out and have a
whole speech where he basically

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will say, look, I follow the
Pope in terms of my, my

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spiritual journey, right?
But he's not necessarily going

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to be able to call the shots in
my presidency, right?

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Right.
And so.

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Because people were worried.
Can you be a Catholic and be an

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American, or at least an
American president?

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Right.
And and so this is this is

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something that comes up from
time to time, right.

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And I would expect that if we
ever had a a Muslim candidate

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for president, it would come up
again, right?

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Well, and sadly, not too long
ago when Mitt Romney ran for

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president, there were a lot of
people talking about can you be

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a Mormon and be president?
And I was disappointed at the

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time.
There were several major

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research organizations, right,
that do polling.

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And they did a poll of would you
be comfortable with, you know,

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setting aside present
candidates, would you be

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comfortable with any Mormon ever
being president?

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Would you be comfortable with
any woman ever being present,

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regardless of the candidates?
Would you?

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And Mormons actually scored the
worst.

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Yep.
Mormon, are you comfortable with

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a Mormon being president?
Was right up there with things

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like, would you be comfortable
with a Muslim president?

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I forget exactly how much, but
it was a substantial minority.

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Like 30% or something of
Americans said that they would

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never be comfortable with any
Mormon being president.

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And I thought, Oh my gosh, I
can't believe it's still that

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much prejudice against the, you
know, just based on religion.

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But there is a lot of prejudice
out there.

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Yep, Yep, No, it's interesting
that this that, that these,

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these this idea of of kind of
being mutually exclusive, right,

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Being being an American and a
Mormon can, you know, aren't

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really compatible, right?
You're looked at like maybe kind

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of like American Light.
But but so this is one of the.

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This is one example of one of
the interpretations that's

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caused this to become
controversial.

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And yet, what is the oath
really?

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What did I just say the oath
was?

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The oath is to pray, right?
It's to pray that God will do

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his justice for this world.
And so this is actually an

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important theme throughout the
entire Bible at beginning in

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Genesis chapter 4, OK, so right
at the beginning of the Bible as

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well.
And so throughout the Torah and

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then throughout the prophets,
Old and New Testament, this

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theme about the blood of the
innocent, not to shed the blood

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of the innocent, or that the
blood of the innocent cries from

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the ground for vengeance upon
those who shed that innocent

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blood.
Is, is this major theme, right?

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What, what is it that we we see
in the book of Genesis, they

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leave the Garden of Eden where
there's no death.

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And then one of the very first
stories we hear, one of the very

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first things we hear is that
there is death in this new world

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and there's murder.
So right after they leave the

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Garden of Eden, one of the first
things we hear about is this

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story of Cain and Abel, that
Cain shed innocent blood.

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And then God says to when God
confronts Cain, God says, what

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have you done?
The voice of your brother's

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blood cries out to me from the
ground, right?

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So this is in Genesis 410.
He's basically saying there

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this, this, this broken world,
this world of death, this world

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of sin, it's best exemplified by
this story, a story of murder

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and a story of innocence lost
and innocent blood shed.

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And but God doesn't leave us
hopeless that when we go out

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into this lone and dreary world,
there's some temple phraseology

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for you with that when we go out
into this lone and dreary world

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that God will no longer care
about what happens to us.

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Quite the opposite in fact.
The very first thing that the

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very first great sin that occurs
in the world, this murder of

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Abel by his brother, God
immediately takes notice, right?

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The same way that Jesus says the
Father notices the fall of every

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Sparrow, right?
He immediately notices and he

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says there is there are
consequences to sin, but there's

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also a redemption promised.
Right.

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And so I think that when we
think, OK, so when we think

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about not just the temple, when
we think about gospel learning,

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it's almost always wrapped up in
these sacred symbolism stories.

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There's a lot of things they
could have told us about.

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They could have told us how the
first harvest went.

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They could have told us about
what kind of technology they

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used or where they lived or how
they lived.

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But that's not what they tell
us.

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What Moses tells us in the
Bible, there was a became the

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world became a fallen world, and
then there was death in it.

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And so the first thing I want to
tell you about what this means

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about the world that we live in
is I'm going to tell you this,

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this terrible story of murder,
but a murder where the blood of

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the innocent isn't shed in vain.
God hears cry of innocence.

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God hears the the sorrow and the
pleading of those who are

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harmed, and God executes
judgement upon the wicked.

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And so even though judgement is
always isn't always swift and

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there's a lot of complications
in this world, this is the one

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of the first lessons that Moses
and God try to teach us in the

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Scriptures from the very
beginning so that God cares and

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that there is going to be a
consequence and a redemption.

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And so This is why I think this
is so central to the covenants

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of the temple.
Another thing that I don't mind

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talking in general terms, one of
the main themes of the temple of

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course, is that it is about this
creation narrative, right the

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the temple is about the creation
of the earth, the Garden of

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Eden, the fall and the
redemption from the fall.

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And so just like Moses in the
book of Genesis lays out this

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story of fall, sin, redemption,
that's what the purpose of the

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temple is, is to walk us through
that plan of salvation, to walk

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us through those principles.
And so central to that, just as

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it's central in the book of
Genesis, is this question of the

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blood of the innocent.
And what happens when, when we

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face injustice and death and
sorrow in this world.

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00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,800
And I think it's telling that
the oath isn't take the law into

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your own hands and get the bad
guys.

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00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,880
You know, this isn't, you know,
like, like when you're a child,

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00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:01,320
like there's a game of cops and
robbers.

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00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:02,800
You know what I mean?
And what is the first thing you

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00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,360
do when you're a copy freeze and
then you shoot the robbers or

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00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,440
whatever?
Because we're all looking for

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00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,680
justice.
We all want swift justice.

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The Lord's telling us if you
want justice in this world, you

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actually don't get to do it
yourself.

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00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,120
It's not an oath that I will
execute justice on the wicked.

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00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:25,200
It's quite the opposite.
It is I promise that I will pray

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00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,880
and I will cease to pray and I
will never cease to in between I

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00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,560
have.
In other words, this should be

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00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:37,120
the constant motivating force
within us should not be toward

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00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,720
vengeance of our own.
A constant motive should be look

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00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,680
to God for justice, look to God
for salvation, right?

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00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,360
And so people call the oath of
vengeance and it becomes

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00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,600
controversial because of these
various political things, right?

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00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,880
People assume that it means that
we are looking for vengeance

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00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,200
because we're praying for the
Lord's vengeance.

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00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,720
And I would say, no, the Lord's
vengeance is not like man's

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00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,240
vengeance.
The Lord's vengeance is justice.

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00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:11,000
It's peace.
It's an end to sorrow, Right?

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00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:17,640
And this whole context of the
blood, the blood of the innocent

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00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,720
really centers on Jesus Christ
and the central and and that

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00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,840
that's one of the other reasons
why I think this is interesting.

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00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,600
The oath of vengeance is
actually right in the center of

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00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,600
the endowment.
So what's the central message of

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00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,360
something usually means?
Of course, it's main theme,

258
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,280
right?
But another way of looking at

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00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:37,800
the center is what's exactly in
the middle.

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00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,320
Exactly.
The center of the Book of

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00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,680
Mormon, I love to point out, is
the place where the anti nephile

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00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,280
heights make their oath and
promise that they will never

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00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,040
again shed innocent blood.
Right and right in the very

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00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,520
center of the endowment of the
of the covenants that you make

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00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,800
the middle one.
The middle covenant is the oath

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00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,400
of vengeance.
And I think it's trying to say

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00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,840
the same thing.
And the Book of Mormon also has

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00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,000
this exact same theme in it.
The Book of Mormon is saying

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00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,560
right in the middle.
If you want to see the message,

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00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,160
right in the middle is the
covenant not to shed innocent

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00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,080
blood, and right in the middle
of the endowment is the covenant

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00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,120
to pray for the blood of the
innocent.

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00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,880
In other words, not to shed
innocent blood, but instead to

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00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,560
pray that the Lord will be our
deliverance, right?

275
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,600
And so in that sense, the the
Book of Mormon itself is set up

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00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:37,640
very similarly.
And Jesus is also said to have

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00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,040
come at the Meridian of time.
So the central message, the

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00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,240
central theme of the entire
gospel of Jesus Christ, of

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00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,160
course, is the sacrifice of
Jesus Christ, which is what?

280
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,600
The sacrifice of innocent blood.
Jesus was innocent.

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00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,200
That's the, that's the part of
the whole point, right?

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00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:01,960
Jesus committed no sin.
And Judas, for example, when he

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00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,920
sees that Jesus doesn't just
throw off the oppressors, but

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00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:11,280
instead he goes and he dies.
Judas is so distraught, right?

285
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,800
He goes and he, he kills
himself.

286
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,839
And there's a couple different
versions on how that goes.

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00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,160
Either he's hung around his neck
or his bowels gush out.

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00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,720
But he's he suffers these
penalties, which of course is

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00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,800
also a temple theme.
And Judas says this quote in

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00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,600
Matthew chapter 27 for Matthew
quotes Judas as having saying, I

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00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,200
have sinned.
I have betrayed the innocent

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00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,880
blood.
That's.

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00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,520
Interesting.
And so again, what is this whole

294
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:52,600
thing, right?
What it what does it mean when

295
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,040
he says that he's the one to
blame for shedding the blood of

296
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,880
the innocent?
He's basically pointing out that

297
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:02,920
that's the dichotomy.
That's the ultimate dichotomy.

298
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,840
There's death and there's
resurrection, right?

299
00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:11,520
And those who ascent unto the
crucifixion of Christ, who bear

300
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:18,800
that responsibility, that is,
that is the ultimate sin, right?

301
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,120
And in fact, this is something,
Gee, I'm just, I'm just, I'm

302
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,160
just running with this.
But this is also mentioned in

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00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,720
the Doctrine Covenants that the
unpardonable sin is that they

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00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,080
ascend unto the death of Jesus
Christ, which is a new way of

305
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,280
putting it.
The unforgivable sin has often

306
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,480
been described as denying the
Holy Ghost.

307
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,680
Right.
But what does that mean exactly?

308
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,680
I I really strongly disagree
with the Protestant view of

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00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,520
that.
They usually think that means

310
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,800
that anybody who gets started in
the Christian life and then

311
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,560
doesn't and then turns back to
sin is unpardonable.

312
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,040
And I think that would apply to
almost everybody, including some

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00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,800
of the best Christians I know,
because at some point we all

314
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,880
make mistakes.
But no, I think the this and so

315
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,320
Mormonism has this much broader,
more robust version of what the

316
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,800
unpardonable sin is, and that it
and that it can really only be

317
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,960
committed by those who know God.
Right.

318
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:20,480
Who are witnesses of His glory,
who are deeply connected to Him,

319
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,200
who know Him and then turn all
together therefrom?

320
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,080
Right.
So a lot of that doctrine comes

321
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,200
from the Doctrine Covenants, but
it also says that the ascent to

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00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,720
the shedding of innocent blood
is the unpardonable sin.

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00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,080
And I think that the way I kind
of interpret this to a sense to

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00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,960
Jesus death being unpardonable
is it really is one of those

325
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,760
questions of like orientation.
Are you headed toward God or are

326
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,280
you against God way?
To truly commit the unpardonable

327
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:55,200
sin is to lust after innocent
blood, the innocent blood of

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00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,000
Jesus Christ.
To have so much hatred and and

329
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:05,280
also knowledge of God like
Perdition and and Satan do that

330
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,320
they know who God is but they
hate who God is so much that

331
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,320
they just wish that they could
kill him.

332
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,600
Right.
Right.

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00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,520
And so that's why, that's why
the unpardonable sin, this one

334
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,240
little exception to the
universal salvation of Mormonism

335
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:27,360
is this, this rare carve out for
someone like Judas, and maybe

336
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:33,160
even not Judas, but for somebody
who says, I want to fight God,

337
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,680
it's not going to take away your
free agency.

338
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,920
If you're willing to accept
God's grace, then great, come

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00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,480
into the kingdoms of heaven.
There's room for everybody

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00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,120
there.
There's many mansions, there's

341
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,160
the different degrees of glory
and all of that, right?

342
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,920
So everybody else, this
universal salvation, everybody

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00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,400
else gets to come in, but God's
not going to take you away.

344
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,520
Your free agency.
And if you stand there at the

345
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:59,920
doorway of heaven and say to
God, I hate you, I want to

346
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:01,760
destroy you.
I would fight you.

347
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,800
I would kill you.
I want to shed your innocent

348
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,240
blood.
I will never enter your rest.

349
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,720
God's not going to force you to
go to heaven.

350
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,840
Right.
That's why it's unforgivable,

351
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:14,880
because no matter how, because
it's not about whether or not

352
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:16,400
God can forgive.
God can forgive.

353
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:21,520
God is like God has arms wide
open to forgive, but there is no

354
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:22,600
forgiveness for them.
Why?

355
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,680
Because they don't accept it.
Right, right.

356
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,600
You know.
I made some tangents there,

357
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,280
sorry about.
That no, no, no, no, no, you're,

358
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:33,280
you're good.
You're good.

359
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,320
This is exactly what I was
hoping it would be.

360
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,920
Right?
Because this is one of those

361
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,440
things that really does have to
be unpacked through, through the

362
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,800
spectrum of human history, as it
were, right to, to really grasp,

363
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,600
get, get a good grasp on what it
is we're talking about here.

364
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,440
To go along with what you said
about, you know, talking about

365
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,400
what it is we are actually
praying or, or what we're

366
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,160
actually covenanting to do here.
Again, it's not that we're

367
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,560
saying, you know, the, the oath
of vengeance does not empower

368
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,040
somebody to pick up the sword,
right?

369
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,600
That's not what that's about.
Yeah.

370
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:14,360
Now let's talk about the
benefits of that, right?

371
00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,840
Because I'm a guy who does
believe in in righteous

372
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,200
indignation, right?
God feels that I think we feel

373
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,720
that from time time to time the.
Danger is of course, you want to

374
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,840
make sure that your indignation
is actually righteous.

375
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,440
I'm not just self-righteous,
because then that opens up a

376
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:33,760
different kind of worms.
Made right?

377
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,960
Absolutely.
And and let's look, let's look

378
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,320
at the breadth of human history,
right?

379
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,600
I think too often we, we sit
here and we're really super

380
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,400
comfortable in our 21st century
trappings, right?

381
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,080
I mean, look, mankind in a lot
of ways has never had it so

382
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,200
good, right?
By and large in the United

383
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,520
States, I'm there are people who
are hungry, right?

384
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,280
I don't want to diminish that,
but it's a small percentage,

385
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,160
right?
And we need to do what we can to

386
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,040
eradicate that.
We don't live under warlords,

387
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,640
right?
By and large, thank goodness.

388
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:13,320
Right.
By and large, there's some.

389
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,200
There's definitely some
injustice and terrible tyrants

390
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,360
in this world, but most of them
hopefully are, well, we're

391
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:23,280
blessed to live in this, in this
land where we have a Republic, a

392
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,800
free Republic.
Right, if, if we look at but,

393
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,760
but this is an aberration in
human history, right?

394
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,960
If we go back in time, it's
history's bloody, right?

395
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,960
And it's bloody in the sense of
you wronged me and my people.

396
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,040
Now me and my people are going
to go extract our pound of

397
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:50,120
flesh, right?
And what what that does is that

398
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:55,320
does not allow for any sort of
peace, right?

399
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,520
The Hatfield and Mccoy's, right.
They went at it for the better

400
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,520
part of what, half a half a
century?

401
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,000
They were at each other's
throats, right?

402
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,680
We look back at at, you know,
early Europe, Middle Eastern

403
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,240
history, it is a bloody, bloody
mess because someone feels like

404
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,000
they're offended or something.
And and maybe so maybe it's a

405
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,960
legitimate offense, right?
But what happens is, is if you

406
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,360
do that all the time, there is
no peace and there is no time to

407
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,400
build a civilization, right?
And what is it we as Mormons

408
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,240
here are really trying to do,
Ben?

409
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,000
We're, you know, we're
ultimately aiming for Zion,

410
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,600
right, which is a society, a
good society without bloodshed.

411
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,920
And so by by basically saying,
you know what, I was wronged.

412
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,920
I was, I was absolutely
persecuted.

413
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,440
I was, I was hurt, I was
damaged.

414
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,120
But the Lord does something
different than what man does,

415
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,400
right.
Man's knee jerk reaction is give

416
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,520
me my sword now I'm going to go
get even.

417
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,360
The Lord is saying something
else.

418
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:05,680
He's like, let me take care of
this.

419
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,200
Now, what does that do for a
society?

420
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,840
I think it allows a society to
take root, right?

421
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,600
It allows a civilization, a
civilization to begin to

422
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,960
flourish because it's not always
at war, right?

423
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,920
You don't have warlords running
around.

424
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,520
You have appealed that to a
higher power.

425
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,960
And so in some ways, in a lot of
ways, the Oath of Vengeance is a

426
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,200
very civilizing oath that you
will take.

427
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,480
Yeah, 'cause, you know, there's,
there's the old an eye for an

428
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,560
eye and a tooth for a tooth.
And some people say, well, then

429
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,640
I should be able to meet out
judgements with the same measure

430
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:50,080
that was needed to me.
And, and as Tevya says right in

431
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,720
the in the very popular musical
Fiddler on the Roof, right, he

432
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,880
says.
But then the whole world will

433
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,520
end up blind and toothless.
Yes.

434
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,560
Because there's always someone
to exact judgement on.

435
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,440
And yet we still want to believe
in real, real consequences, real

436
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,320
justice, right?
I've got another scripture for

437
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,680
the listeners here that goes
into this, and it's the words of

438
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:20,320
Jesus in Luke chapter 18.
Christ says it asks the

439
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,080
question, will God bring about
justice for those who cry out to

440
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,960
him day and night?
And, and it's worth pointing out

441
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,400
that I think that Jesus, when he
often talks about these things,

442
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,400
there's, there's like temple
passages throughout the

443
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,800
Scripture where there are strong
allusions to specific parts of

444
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,440
the temple.
And I believe this is one of

445
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,800
them because again, he, he's
referring to some kind of oath

446
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,760
that the righteous have taken to
cry out to God day and night.

447
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,120
In other words, to never cease
to pray, right?

448
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:50,600
I'm like, Oh well, this is so
Luke 18, he says, will God not

449
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,760
bring about the justice for his
elect who cry out to him day and

450
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,720
night?
Will he delay in helping them?

451
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,480
I tell you he will probably
carry out justice on their

452
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,720
behalf.
Nevertheless, when the Son of

453
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,880
man comes, will he find faith on
the earth?

454
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,480
So Jesus is saying that like.
God is.

455
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,920
What you who is, who you look to
for justice?

456
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,160
And God will answer us if we
will fulfill our part of the

457
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,080
oath.
And I feel.

458
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,400
You know, but that doesn't mean
it happens in our mortal time,

459
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,960
in our mortal way.
You know, Jesus, Jesus was

460
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,160
innocent blood, but that doesn't
mean he didn't have to die.

461
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,960
It didn't mean that the Lord
sent armies of angels to go down

462
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,680
and and kill all those Pharisees
who cried for his blood.

463
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,000
Instead, the Lord allowed Jesus
to suffer what he suffered in

464
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,040
this world.
But.

465
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,440
Then the.
Lord, but then he still did

466
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,840
justice.
Jesus did not deserve to die.

467
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:56,040
And So what did he do?
He rose again, right?

468
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,440
So I think that's the
interesting thing about justice.

469
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,760
Justice doesn't necessarily mean
that bad things don't happen.

470
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,520
Justice means that it'll be.
Worth it?

471
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,200
In the end, justice means that
bad things do happen, but then

472
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,800
we get restored in the end to
what is what is good and what is

473
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,160
right and what is what is fair.
Yep, it just doesn't.

474
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,760
Happen.
All at once, because we have to

475
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,680
go through the sorrow we must
pass through sorrow that we know

476
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,320
the good from the evil right.
And there's another, there's

477
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,240
another potentially tumble
reference, right, because those

478
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,680
are the words of Eve when when
she left the Garden of Eden was

479
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,800
that it is better for us to pass
through sorrow that we might

480
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,120
know the good from the evil,
right and.

481
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,920
So Justice.
Doesn't mean that bad things

482
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,920
don't happen, it means that when
you pass through them and you

483
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,320
trust in God.
That.

484
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,600
In the next World, in the
perfect world that we're praying

485
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,160
for, every time we pray the oath
of vengeance, we're praying that

486
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,080
Jesus will come and and heal the
world.

487
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,360
So from there I'd.
Like to jump to the Book of

488
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,960
Revelation the.
Book of Revelation.

489
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,080
In chapter 6 is it's the 5th
seal of the book for those who

490
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,800
follow this, basically in John's
vision, he's seeing a vision of

491
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,280
how is it that any of this will
come about?

492
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,400
And what does he do?
He sees the holy temple in

493
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,440
heaven, the divine temple.
And so most of the Book of

494
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,760
Revelation with this vision of
the divine temple, a lot of it

495
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,880
is temple commentary.
So it actually is commentary on

496
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,880
the endowment.
And so once again, here's

497
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,440
another ancient example to, I'm
going to make this point in more

498
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,920
detail later, but here's another
ancient example that I believe

499
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,280
that these covenants have
existed in temple liturgies, not

500
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,960
just in this dispensation, but
throughout time, right?

501
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,680
So the. 5th.
Seal which is right in the

502
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,520
middle of the seals, right,
because there's 7 seals and he

503
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,000
and so the middle seal is the
4th or the 5th right And in the

504
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,480
5th seal we have the oath of
vengeance, right.

505
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,040
And so he's making commentary on
this vision of the, of the

506
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,520
celestial temple and when the
Lamb opened the 5th seal.

507
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,160
So when Jesus opens to this next
part, this next covenant in his

508
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,760
book.
John sees.

509
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,920
That under the altar of the
temple.

510
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,800
Were the souls of.
Those who were slain for the

511
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,120
word of God, all those whose
had, who have been the martyrs,

512
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,440
those whose innocent blood had
been shed, right.

513
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,440
And.
And he hears the cry of the

514
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,680
innocent blood crying out of the
ground, and they cry.

515
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,480
How long, O Lord, holy and true,
until you avenge our blood and

516
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,360
judge those who dwell upon the
earth, right?

517
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,200
So.
This again, this isn't about the

518
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,560
petty justice of of mankind.
This is about the divine justice

519
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,040
of God.
They're saying we were robbed of

520
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,680
our second estate.
We were robbed of our mortal

521
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:01,280
lives.
We how long must we wait until

522
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,800
we have the chance to regain the
life that we've lost to to have

523
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,560
every opportunity that we were
promised that was stolen from

524
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,080
us, right?
How long until you put an end to

525
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,800
all of this evil on the earth so
that we can live again in this

526
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,960
millennial world and have
restored to us everything that

527
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,760
was stolen from us by those who
shed our us in blood, right?

528
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,200
And so, but here's the
interesting thing, verse 11, God

529
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,640
doesn't just say, OK, immediate
resurrection, immediate justice,

530
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,760
immediate everything he doesn't.
Each of the martyrs is then by

531
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,320
Christ is given a white robe.
Told to rest.

532
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,720
A while.
Until the full.

533
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,360
Number of their fellow servants,
all the other martyrs are killed

534
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,600
just as they've been killed.
So instead of God saying I'm

535
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,680
going to put a swift end to the
evils of the world, he says.

536
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,840
You have to wait.
Until more people die,

537
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,840
basically.
Which sounds terrible to me at

538
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,880
first.
But he's saying.

539
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:11,520
Rest, be at peace, don't fear.
Because I will.

540
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,640
Restore to you everything.
But it isn't.

541
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,840
Yet the time for your redemption
isn't yet.

542
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,000
So he gives them the white robe,
right?

543
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,520
And to me, that's this beautiful
temple symbology again,

544
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:24,840
Absolutely.
What we receive is.

545
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,240
A.
White robe, but we're also told

546
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:29,160
that.
When we receive.

547
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,720
These blessings, right we were,
or when we go to the temple for

548
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,320
our dead, and some of whom may
have been these righteous

549
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,120
martyrs, and they receive the
robes of the priesthood, they

550
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,760
receive the garment of the holy
priesthood.

551
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,400
They receive this white robe.
They're also being promised that

552
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,840
they are clean, that they're
innocent, right?

553
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,160
Don't forget, even the martyrs
didn't live sinless lives,

554
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,520
right?
They're being redeemed even even

555
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,200
in death.
They're receiving the promise

556
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,800
that their sins are washed clean
in a lot of.

557
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,760
Lamb and so the.
Lamb himself gives the robe and

558
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,200
says don't fear, you will
receive everything you would

559
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,760
have received.
And this is this is fairly

560
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,960
essential, I think, to the whole
concept of Mormon temple

561
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,360
theology and why we do work for
our dead.

562
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,720
It isn't just about, you know,
power in this life.

563
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,480
And it isn't just about like,
oh, the dead didn't get a chance

564
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,520
to do it while they were alive.
A lot of them didn't, of course,

565
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,080
have that chance.
I think it's about this idea

566
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,520
that no matter how bad this
world gets, God is greater than.

567
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,640
Any sin.
Any darkness, Any suffering?

568
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,520
Any death that this world can
deal out, God is greater than it

569
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:42,560
all.
Yep.

570
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,560
And that.
Even the person who lived and

571
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,440
died in obscurity and and sinned
like everyone else and and the

572
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,120
martyrs who were had their lives
stolen from them.

573
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:59,600
No matter who you are, if you
approach God, God can overcome

574
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,800
all of the lack.
Yeah.

575
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,800
Gives you the white robe.
With the promise that you shall

576
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,080
sit down upon my throne with
Thrones, kingdoms,

577
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,560
principalities, dominions and
exaltations, not because we and

578
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,960
of ourselves are worthy.
Right, Christ.

579
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,000
Is worthy.
And Christ chooses.

580
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,080
To bring us up with him?
Yep.

581
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,120
You know it's.
Interesting, right?

582
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,840
The same pattern we see set
there in Genesis.

583
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,760
It's the same pattern we see it.
And I think it's 121 of Doctrine

584
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,760
and Covenants where Joseph's in
Liberty Jail, right?

585
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,000
And he's like, how long, O Lord?
How long?

586
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,840
How long going to let this
happen, right.

587
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,600
And he lists the grievances
again, right.

588
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,880
And what's the Lord's response?
Just wait.

589
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,760
Endure it a little longer.
Yeah, just wait, wait, be

590
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,719
patient through your.
Suffering.

591
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,040
And then if thou endure it well,
thou shall be exalted on high.

592
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,040
In other words, I'm not going
to, I'm not going to take you

593
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,160
out of this suffering.
In fact, I'm hoping that passing

594
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,000
through it will.
It will be for your good.

595
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,800
Yep, Yep.
But but again.

596
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,240
He but, but if I'm not mistaken,
the Lord does say, look at some

597
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:20,240
point I'll deal with this right,
but your job is not to dwell on

598
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:22,640
this.
I've got other things for you to

599
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,680
do, Joseph.
And in the case of Revelation,

600
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,400
what they have to do is just
rest.

601
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,880
You've done well.
Just rest in my glory for a

602
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,360
little while here.
And then I will, I will deal

603
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,680
with it.
You know the the.

604
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,640
Other thing is, is that we've
talked a lot about justice here,

605
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:45,160
right?
And I've often said that that,

606
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,800
well, why didn't we call it the
oath of justice, right?

607
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,560
Because to me that sounds
friendlier, right?

608
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,840
I'm like, why not call it the
oath of justice?

609
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,400
The problem with that is I
talked about it being.

610
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,560
Called the Oath of prayer
because we're promising to pray,

611
00:35:58,920 --> 00:35:59,760
right?
Right.

612
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:02,720
There's there's all sorts of
things there that that it could

613
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:07,520
have been called.
However, it in in my own folly

614
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,880
in thinking of that and as I did
my own scripture study into this

615
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,720
well, man's allowed to deal in
justice in this life, right

616
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,400
Judges right.
We know that it's a valid

617
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,000
system.
The Lord kind of installed

618
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,760
something like that amongst the
Nephites.

619
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:29,240
There were judges in Israel.
So maybe justice doesn't fit and

620
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,120
it wasn't until I did a deep
dive where I'm like, wait a

621
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,040
second, hold on.
There's a scripture that says.

622
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,480
Vengeance is.
Mine, saith the Lord, right?

623
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,760
Meaning you don't get to play in
that arena as a mortal.

624
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,000
This is mine.
Right.

625
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,600
And again.
Because I think as humans, we

626
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,960
have knee jerk reactions to
things that make us feel, you

627
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,640
know, that that sounds kind of
ugly.

628
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,680
I don't want to boy, that's that
sounds brutal.

629
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:04,480
But if you look at it, it's a
massive blessing to humanity

630
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:10,040
again, because we're going to
leave that up to a higher power.

631
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:16,160
The other thing I'll say.
Is that we get wronged.

632
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,160
And often times, and I am super
guilty of this, Ben, we get

633
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:25,400
wronged and we don't ask the
question, what was the intent of

634
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,960
the person who wronged me?
Well, and to a certain extent.

635
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,120
Sometimes when you're angry,
you're like, I don't care if

636
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,480
they didn't mean to.
They did it right, man.

637
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,840
I'm mad about it, right?
Right.

638
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,640
And, and we don't have the
ability to look on the heart all

639
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,720
that much, right or no mind man.
Looketh on the outward.

640
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:46,080
Appearance.
But the Lord looketh upon the

641
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,280
heart, right?
That's in Samuel.

642
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,440
So yes, yes.
And so we can't.

643
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,360
We can't, ultimately.
Look and see what.

644
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,920
That person has done what, what,
what the intent of that person's

645
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,440
heart was right.
Maybe it was to inflict damage.

646
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,000
Maybe it was right.
And sometimes you have guys who

647
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,840
actually say, yeah, my, my whole
thing was I just want to inflict

648
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,920
as much pain as possible, right?
But sometimes, and I would say a

649
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,440
lot of times when we get
slighted, it's not so much that,

650
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,600
it's just.
The person went about.

651
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,760
It the wrong way or we didn't,
you know, there's all sorts of

652
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,200
extenuating circumstances that
we as mortals don't get to look

653
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,680
at.
And so again, it's a way that

654
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,920
the Lord can sort that out
because he does know best,

655
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:45,480
because he does know best.
Otherwise, as as it said in The

656
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,600
Fiddler on the Roof, there's
going to be a lot less people

657
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,640
with a whole lot more bloodshed
going on in the world and it's

658
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,080
going to look a lot more
war-torn than what it already

659
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,400
is.
Well, and it's bad enough.

660
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,520
As it is, you know, one of the
things that I, I often try to

661
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,560
say to remind myself when I'm
upset with somebody is that you

662
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,360
don't make peace with your
friends.

663
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:05,560
You make peace with your
enemies.

664
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,600
Yeah.
And, you know, there's, it's,

665
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,880
it's one thing to be like, oh,
well, I'd make peace with them

666
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,840
if they would say they're sorry
and things like that.

667
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,720
And but the problem is, is that
someone has to go 1st and it's

668
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:21,520
kind of our job to be the one
who goes first as much as

669
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,840
possible, right?
If we're, if we're to be true

670
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,880
followers of Jesus Christ and
we're supposed to be turning the

671
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,480
other cheek and so forth.
It's usually our responsibility

672
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,680
to the one who goes 1st and
says, hey, I'm sorry.

673
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,080
Even when you're like, yes, I'm
not guilty and I'm not

674
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,920
apologizing and I didn't do
anything wrong, but I'm still

675
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,840
sorry.
This is one of the things I like

676
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,480
about it in English.
Sorry in English is really the

677
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,680
same root word as sorrow.
In other words, I'm sad about

678
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,360
it.
There's a breach.

679
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,600
And there's sorrow for what this
is.

680
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,360
So when you say I'm sorry,
you're saying I have sorrow.

681
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:55,920
It doesn't have to be the sorrow
of the guilty.

682
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,200
It can be the sorrow of just
recognizing the harm.

683
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,800
And sometimes you have to be the
first one to go forward and say

684
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,960
it if you want there to be
peace.

685
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,200
Because again, yeah, you don't
make peace with your friends.

686
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:08,160
You make peace with your
enemies.

687
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,440
And that's the hard part because
your enemies are your enemies,

688
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:13,360
they're not necessarily going to
be helpful.

689
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:20,200
And and I think that part of
that is turning back to the

690
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,720
earth of vengeance is prayer.
You know, when we're when we

691
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:27,320
have a more immature faith, not
no, no offense to an immature

692
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,000
faith, right.
There's, I see the stages of

693
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,120
development, an early stage of
prayer development is when we

694
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,200
kind of say, dear heavenly
Father, please help me to pass

695
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,480
my test and do good in school
and please help me to get the,

696
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,520
my, the toy that I want and
stuff like that right.

697
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,320
We, we think of prayer sometimes
in the earliest stages of

698
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,760
development as a way of telling
God what we want and hoping that

699
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,560
God will give it to us because
we've been taught that God is

700
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,040
good.
There's nothing wrong with that,

701
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,080
but it's, it's, it's a less
mature form of prayer.

702
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,280
To truly reach a higher level of
spirituality, we have to

703
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,920
recognize that what we're doing
when we even when we do that

704
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,920
very shallow kind of prayer,
even any kind of prayer that

705
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,200
we're doing, what we're doing is
we're we're starting to

706
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,760
reconcile ourselves to God by
talking to him about it, by

707
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,000
talking through what's going on
in our hearts.

708
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,080
We begin to start to wonder,
what does God want?

709
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:22,240
What is?
Right.

710
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,240
What is it that I should be
asking for?

711
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,240
Not just what do I want, but
what should I want?

712
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,920
And until eventually, prayer
becomes a way of reconciling our

713
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,200
hearts to God and subsuming our
own will into the will of the

714
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,960
divine.
Instead of just trying.

715
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,960
To get our own way or get
something that we want, right?

716
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,440
Well, I think it's the same way
with this oath of vengeance.

717
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,440
It's a prayer that God will
avenge the blood of the

718
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,160
innocent.
At first, that might sound like

719
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,560
to a lot of people like we're
praying for those who killed the

720
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,320
prophet to, to get their
comeuppance because we're really

721
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,040
ticked off at them and it's
appropriate to be upset with

722
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,480
people who murder your friends.
I mean, of course, that's not

723
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,000
easy to deal with.
But if you pray and never cease

724
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,040
to pray, eventually I think you
reach a point in that prayer

725
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,720
where you say, well, God, what
do you want to do, right?

726
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,680
And if you never cease to pray,
eventually you reach the point

727
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,120
where you start to receive it,
revelation.

728
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:22,920
So it's not just a one way St.
of prayer.

729
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,720
It becomes a reconciliation.
How is it that I want?

730
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:31,200
How can my heart desire the
things of God the way God wants

731
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,560
them to be right?
Now.

732
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,600
That is not just and, and, and
sometimes people will say, Oh,

733
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,520
well, I don't like the sound of
that because that means I'm

734
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,760
going to have to come to some
place where I just forgive

735
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,280
everybody all the time.
And I don't, I don't care about

736
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,080
the outcome.
And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

737
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,280
That's actually not what it is.
God actually cares about the

738
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,320
outcome.
God has promised us that his

739
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,760
vengeance will be perfect, that
his justice will be assured,

740
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,280
that he will put an end to all
suffering, all sorrow.

741
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,720
He will dry every tear and he
will make a millennial world

742
00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:08,160
where there will be no more
violence, right?

743
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,400
So there's going to come a time
when and, and This is why in the

744
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,920
Book of Revelation, people worry
about the judgments part too.

745
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:21,680
There's God will execute
judgment, but we have to want it

746
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,520
the way God wants it.
So the way we want it, right?

747
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:26,640
Absolutely.
And so, yeah, I think that's.

748
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,040
Why, it's prayer.
And yet, you know, it wouldn't

749
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,360
just sound so much more friendly
to outsiders who don't

750
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,000
understand the endowments if we
were to if if we were to call it

751
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,840
the oath of prayer, right?
But it has to be more.

752
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,800
Than that.
Because I don't think I'm sorry.

753
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,000
This is a world where terrible,
terrible things happen.

754
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,160
If we can't use harsh words to
describe a harsh reality, we're

755
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,080
kidding ourselves.
I'm not so politically correct

756
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:52,720
that I think that that's a wise
choice.

757
00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:56,000
I think it's good.
It's good for us to challenge

758
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,880
hard truths with harsh words.
Sometimes I think so too.

759
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,280
You know, the, the other thing
I've thought about the, the oath

760
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:06,720
of vengeance is I've looked at
it.

761
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,320
One of the, the, the things
that's talked about even in the

762
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,120
Doctrine and Covenants, as well
as as one of the central themes

763
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,880
within the temple liturgy
itself, is, is this idea of

764
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:25,280
having the blood and sins of
this generation taken from us,

765
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,560
right?
And that's, I think, I think

766
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,080
yes.
And I think that this is one of

767
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,640
those ways in which that is done
right.

768
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,960
I think it's a way that we can
shake off the blood and sins of,

769
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,280
of our generation by turning
this back over to the Lord,

770
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,480
right?
And, and not holding on to it.

771
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,400
How likely are you to shed?
Innocent blood.

772
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:56,200
If you're constantly yourself
thinking, I wish to God, I hope

773
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,840
to God that there would be no,
no such pain, right?

774
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,280
How likely are you to become to
allow yourself to get into the

775
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,520
mindset of shedding blood
yourself if you're supposed to

776
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,840
be constantly in the mindset of
praying that God will have

777
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,360
judgement upon people with that
who who do?

778
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,480
Such things.
Right.

779
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,840
You know.
And so I do think that that

780
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,320
would that would change the way
we think about.

781
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,520
A lot of things.
In life and so I think about

782
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,200
this on veteran's day because of
Armistice Day and they talked

783
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,560
about a war to end all wars.
And I think to myself, you know,

784
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,720
when I pray the oath of
vengeance, as I do most of the

785
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:36,400
time, I mean, I know I've
covenant to pray and never cease

786
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:37,640
to pray and never cease to
return to heaven.

787
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,240
But you know, I'm not always
saying it out loud or I'm not

788
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:44,200
always even thinking about it.
But sometimes I'll, I will

789
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,680
remember as I'm praying, I did
this morning, for example, and I

790
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:53,160
would pray and say to God,
please, please bring your

791
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,240
justice.
And then I'm hoping that that

792
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:00,760
reminds me to try to be on the
right side of God's justice so

793
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,680
that his judgement isn't coming
on me, which makes me aware of

794
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,440
my own sins, my own
shortcomings.

795
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,400
And then I and then I pray that
the Lord will forgive me so that

796
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,640
I might be worthy to be one of
the forgiven right.

797
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,080
Instead of one of the people.
Who gets the comeuppance right?

798
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:20,960
Absolutely.
You know, and, and look, there's

799
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,240
something else we talked about
kind of the physical realities

800
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,480
of, of doing the whole thing of
I'm going to go get my pound of

801
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,560
flesh, right?
I'm going to go get mine.

802
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:36,320
But there is a spiritual toll
that gets paid when we're

803
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,920
constantly in that mindset,
right?

804
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:45,600
Where where I do think that that
we, we do kind of maybe even add

805
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,200
to the blood of this generation
of our generation by holding on

806
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,400
to that.
And one of the things that I

807
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,360
look at with the oath of
vengeance is it's kind of

808
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,480
liberating, right?
As, as I pray for God's justice

809
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,280
to be done, I get to just leave
that right there at his feet,

810
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,800
right?
I can just set that there.

811
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,320
I can back away knowing that God
is true to what He says.

812
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,480
Right, 'cause let's face it, if
you're going to the temple, you

813
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,960
probably shouldn't at at any
rate have any.

814
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,880
Question at that.
Point that God is both real and

815
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,920
what he says he's going to do.
So you've established that fact

816
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,440
in your in your discipleship
with the Lord.

817
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:32,960
So.
If you.

818
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,560
Have that in mind and then you
pray for his justice, his

819
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,080
vengeance to be done.
You can leave that right there

820
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,200
and then you can take a step
back.

821
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,920
You can breathe and you don't
have to worry about that

822
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,800
anymore.
You get to unload that, you get

823
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,280
to say because then yours and
it's not your burden to carry.

824
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,760
Anymore, but you have to do this
right And now you.

825
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,200
Get to go.
Continue on.

826
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,120
You are no longer damned by your
own personal quest for

827
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,600
vengeance.
Now you can.

828
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,200
Focus on being a better person.
You can focus on being more

829
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,920
Christ like.
You can make that walk in a

830
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:18,040
deeper way because you are no
longer held back by by the, the,

831
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,080
the injustice that was done to
you.

832
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,000
And I think that's a very
beautiful thing.

833
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,520
I think it ties right in with
forgiveness, right?

834
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,720
And, and we've, we, we talk
about vengeance, especially the

835
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:33,960
oath of vengeance, and I think
we failed to make the connection

836
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,640
back to forgiveness sometimes.
And I think that's a big thing,

837
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,720
right, is that that they're
that, that we're able to leave

838
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:45,000
that there.
And people have kind of a

839
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,000
misunderstanding of what
forgiveness is, right?

840
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,480
You know, oftentimes we think of
forgiveness as, Hey, we're going

841
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,200
to be boys again, right?
We're going to slap high fives.

842
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,760
We're going to, you know, go
hang out together.

843
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,800
And certainly when, when you can
do that, you totally should.

844
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,560
But sometimes for your own
health and the health of others,

845
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,040
that's not possible.
But I still believe forgiveness

846
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,400
can be had without, you know,
again, slapping the high fives

847
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,840
and hanging out together.
And I think the Oath of

848
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:19,040
Vengeance is one way that we can
can forgive in a way and and

849
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,080
just move on.
Right.

850
00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:27,240
So there's a there was an
interesting statement by an

851
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:32,560
early guy about this being, you
know, some people will say, I

852
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,600
was thinking about it as you
were, as you were talking.

853
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,280
I was thinking about how some
people are going to listen to

854
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,080
this episode and they're going
to say, well, yeah, that's what

855
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,040
you guys believe now about the
oath of vengeance.

856
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:42,480
But what about back in the old
days?

857
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,520
I bet those those early
pioneers, they were pretty

858
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,320
bloodthirsty.
And this is especially relevant

859
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,480
right now, unfortunately,
because there is a new and it

860
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,560
was number one for a while on
Netflix, a new show called

861
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,040
American Prime Evil that starts
with the Mountain Meadows

862
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,480
Massacre.
OK, time out.

863
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:03,760
Time out for just a second.
Hold that back.

864
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,600
Have you ever noticed we talk
right as one of these shows come

865
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,120
out?
We did this with Under the

866
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,680
Banner of Heaven.
Somehow we think this all up.

867
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,680
Anyway, go ahead, it's all
synced up anyway.

868
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,520
This this show is out right now.
It's very popular.

869
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,000
And of course, it centers on
this mountain, Mountain Meadows

870
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,720
Massacre, which was the most
bloody part of the conflict of

871
00:50:21,720 --> 00:50:24,520
the Utah War by a long shot.
It was a terrible incident.

872
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,240
It was a battle.
And that might have sounded

873
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:30,160
justified, but then after the
battle, there was a massacre

874
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:31,920
because they killed their
prisoners of war.

875
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,240
And that's totally inexcusable,
especially since many of these

876
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:37,120
prisoners of war weren't even
really combatants.

877
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,080
They were, some of them weren't
even, I mean, some of them were

878
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,720
just children, really.
Supposedly they tried not to

879
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:47,440
kill anybody over the age of 8
and under the age of eight

880
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,960
because of, again, Mormon ideas
about the age of accountability.

881
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,160
But there were a bunch of people
killed, including small,

882
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:57,000
including small children.
And it was this terrible,

883
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,440
terrible thing.
And so I just don't feel like we

884
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,720
can have a talk about the oath
of vengeance without addressing

885
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,080
that elephant in the room.
That's where.

886
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,560
I was going, yeah, yeah.
People blame the Oath of

887
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,360
Vengeance is a big part of why
that happened.

888
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:18,640
And I do think that there were
people who very seriously wanted

889
00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:22,800
to see death dealt out at the
time, Right.

890
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,800
So there it was a problem.
This isn't just and the Oath of

891
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,720
Vengeance may have played some
role in the sense that some of

892
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:37,720
these people who were involved.
We're endowed, John.

893
00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:40,800
D Lee is the one who got
actually got executed for his

894
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:47,000
role in ordering the massacre.
And he he complained that it was

895
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:51,680
his understanding that we needed
to do vengeance against people

896
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,200
and things like that.
And so he connected it as well.

897
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:59,160
But I found an interesting quote
from a guy named David H Cannon.

898
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,000
Now, David H Cannon was never a
general authority, but he was

899
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,000
one of the early Saints from the
beginning.

900
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:10,280
He joined the Church in like the
1830s, OK, so a long way back.

901
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,680
And he served in the temple
presidency when Wilfred Woodruff

902
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,400
was the temple president of the
Saint George Temple, so very

903
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,800
involved in temple things.
And then later on he served as

904
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:28,080
the temple president after, I
believe it was only after the

905
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,800
death of Wilfred Woodruff.
And so normally we think of

906
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,560
Oliver Woodruff as being
president of the church or

907
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,760
remember the crime of the 12.
But he was also temple president

908
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,760
and had David H Cannon as his
counselor.

909
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,640
And then David H Cannon took
over that work later on, I want

910
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,560
to say in the in the in the
teens and 20s.

911
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,600
And so this is right when there
was a lot of animosity and

912
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:53,040
confusion and upset about, about
the oath of vengeance, right?

913
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,920
So I think that this I'm, I'm
painting this picture because

914
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,520
this is a very, very
authoritative voice about what

915
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,840
they were really thinking at the
time, the Mountain Meadows

916
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,360
Massacre in southern Utah, about
the oath of vengeance and what

917
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,760
the temple president was
teaching at the time about it.

918
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:14,320
OK.
And he says, We pray for the

919
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,640
Father to avenge the blood of
the prophets and the righteous

920
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:23,920
men whose blood has been shed.
And I fear that this oath given

921
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,760
to persons who go to the temple
only once, is not so strongly

922
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:31,080
impressed upon their minds.
He says, but as.

923
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:32,560
It is given in the Book of
Revelation.

924
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,640
We must do this, and in that
language we must remember that

925
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,440
we importune our Father, that He
may.

926
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,360
Not that we may.
But that he, our Father, will

927
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,680
avenge the blood of the martyrs
shed for their testimony of

928
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:48,920
Jesus, right?
So you know.

929
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,840
Even then at the very beginning
of this temple stuff, he, you

930
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,880
know, here's a guy who worked in
the endowment house, who was in

931
00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,360
Nauvoo.
He, he believes that this oath

932
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,600
of vengeance wasn't just
something that they, that they

933
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,480
drummed up in order to avenge
Joseph Smith or to justify

934
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:08,800
things like the Mountain Meadows
Massacre.

935
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,080
Even he said from the beginning
that even, you know, basically,

936
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:18,360
therefore, as far back as
Nauvoo, this oath was about the

937
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,960
Book of Revelation.
It was about therefore the blood

938
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,800
of Jesus.
It was about seeking that God

939
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,720
will do his justice, not and
that it's for us to pray, not

940
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:31,880
for us to take action in
vengeance.

941
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:35,440
And, and so I'm, you know, I, I
recognize that John Dee Lee made

942
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:41,080
a lot of accusations in his book
before he was executed, trying

943
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,600
to justify himself saying the
oath of the vengeance justified

944
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,320
what I did to the, in the
Mountain Meadows Massacre,

945
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,400
because these people were
enemies of the Mormons.

946
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,280
They they, they actually the,
the party that had done it, the

947
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:55,880
the wagon train that was
massacred.

948
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,600
Again, it it.
It's it's not popular to speak

949
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,960
kill of the dead, right?
So we don't normally and they

950
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,240
and they didn't certainly,
certainly did not deserve to

951
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:07,840
have their entire group
massacred.

952
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:14,000
That's totally inexcusable.
It's inexcusable, but for

953
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:19,880
context, they killed somebody in
Fillmore on their way through.

954
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:25,240
They got in fights.
They were commissioned by the US

955
00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:27,000
Army.
When Buchanan was talking about

956
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,880
invading Utah, he commissioned
officers in their party were

957
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,040
military officers.
OK.

958
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,880
And they?
Their job was to scout it out

959
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,640
and to send letters back and to
be part of the invasion during

960
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,520
the Utah War.
So the Utah War wasn't a

961
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,760
bloodless conflict as some
historians have tried to make it

962
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,560
out, or at least tried to
whitewash it.

963
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:53,280
And the end.
And the the party that was

964
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:59,000
massacred wasn't entirely
innocent random bystanders

965
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,280
either.
They were combatants.

966
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,720
But again, that still doesn't
excuse the massacre, because the

967
00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:08,960
massacre occurred after their
surrender, right?

968
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,160
You do not get to.
Kill the prisoners.

969
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,120
That's a massacre.
It's a war crime, period, right?

970
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,880
So John D Lee deserved what he
got, and a bunch of other people

971
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,320
didn't get what they deserved.
A lot of people, you know, this

972
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,640
is something that we learn,
again, not that early on in

973
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:28,320
history, but we learn it through
things like the the trials at

974
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,320
the end of the Nazi regime,
right?

975
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,920
The Nuremberg trials.
The Nuremberg trials.

976
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,120
They said, look, if someone
gives you an unlawful order,

977
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:37,920
you're not supposed to follow
it.

978
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:42,040
And saying I was just following
orders is not a defense, right?

979
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,120
It's not a defense.
And so everybody who

980
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,480
participated in the Mountain
Meadows Massacre can't just say,

981
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,080
but I was following orders,
doesn't matter.

982
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:54,280
Not a defense, right?
War crimes transcend.

983
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:58,400
That you're supposed to say, no,
Sir, I will not follow your

984
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:02,080
orders and things like that.
But John D Lee was the head of

985
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:06,440
the that division of the
military that was engaged in

986
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,840
that.
And, and yeah, he, he, he tried

987
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:10,560
to justify himself by saying,
look, I took an oath of

988
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,960
vengeance.
And I thought, and I thought

989
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,320
these people in as much as
they're guilty of the blood of

990
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,720
the prophets, the blood of the
innocent, and they're coming

991
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,640
here to destroy us in our homes.
I, I felt justified in shedding

992
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,400
their blood.
And and yet you still have these

993
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,360
statements even from early
people and his own generation

994
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,520
saying that is absolutely not
what that meant and not even by

995
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,760
their interpretation, not
according to their teachings in

996
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:36,960
the temples at the time,
absolutely.

997
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,320
I'm glad you went there because
I, I did want to go there

998
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:44,600
because I felt it was important
to to not just straw man this

999
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,520
thing, so to speak, right,
right.

1000
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,440
Just make.
It look totally we have to steal

1001
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,680
man in a little bit by looking
at the criticism, right?

1002
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,120
Absolutely.
And one of the other things I'll

1003
00:57:55,120 --> 00:58:00,880
say to this is that religion has
been used to do a lot of

1004
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,360
horrible things, right?
You can justify.

1005
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,120
Yourself doesn't mean you're
right.

1006
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,480
No, no and.
It doesn't mean that you're

1007
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:13,240
actually walking up to the to
the standard that's actually

1008
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,680
set, right?
I think, I think one of the

1009
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:20,000
fascinating cases of this, and I
know this is up for some debate

1010
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,280
and speculation, right?
But the little bit of research

1011
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:28,160
I've done on Islam is, you know,
the, the, the concept of jihad,

1012
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,920
right?
So when when jihad is first

1013
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:35,360
mentioned in the Quran, if I'm
not mistaken, this was more or

1014
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:40,120
less a a a war with the with the
self right of of it's the

1015
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:41,320
righteous.
Struggle.

1016
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:46,360
Not even necessarily war, but
struggle right to overcome evil.

1017
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,600
Absolutely.
And then it's twisted, right?

1018
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,440
And then as we see everywhere,
it gets twisted and it gets the,

1019
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,200
the results of that are
disastrous, right.

1020
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,680
And and here's and here's what
I've I've said for a long time

1021
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,280
on this.
Let me, let me.

1022
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:05,640
Back up a little bit and I'm
going to come full circle.

1023
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:07,000
I'm going to connect this, I
promise.

1024
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,040
But, but hear me out.
There's.

1025
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,840
A lot of people who love Andrew
Jackson as a president, I do

1026
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,240
not.
I feel like Andrew Jackson was

1027
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,160
probably one of our worst
presidents.

1028
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,200
And I'm going to risk being
stoned now, and I'm going to

1029
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,520
explain why.
Well, I'll.

1030
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,080
I'll give you one reason why as
a lawyer drives me crazy is that

1031
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:30,760
what's the purpose of a court or
even a law or the rule of law at

1032
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,520
all if you won't follow it?
And one of his most famous

1033
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:35,600
quote, that's what Andrew
Jackson said.

1034
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,280
The Supreme Court made their
decision, Let them enforce it.

1035
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:39,840
And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
buddy, you're.

1036
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,120
President of the United States.
Your job is to enforce the law,

1037
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:44,680
not whatever the heck you
please.

1038
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:49,280
And the law at the highest judge
of the land said you can't do

1039
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,520
this.
And he was like, I'm going to

1040
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,960
look, I, I, I'm not going to use
the executive branch to do the

1041
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,120
executive functions of
government.

1042
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,840
If they they want to, they,
they're going to have to

1043
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:00,880
overthrow me.
I'm just going to ignore the

1044
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,800
law.
And it's like, oh, bad

1045
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:04,480
precedence, buddy, bad
precedence.

1046
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,840
Yep.
Going back to.

1047
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:12,240
Our founders there, there was
this idea of, of being reliant

1048
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,680
upon the protection of divine
Providence, right?

1049
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:20,680
And as you follow this idea out,
what you get is you get

1050
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,800
Washington making statements.
You even get our perhaps our

1051
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:29,240
most secular founder in Franklin
even voicing this a little bit

1052
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,200
where, where, where he's saying
we have to be on God's side

1053
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,280
right now.
When Jackson comes around,

1054
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,040
Manifest Destiny comes into play
right now.

1055
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:43,480
I, I, I want to say this, it was
kind of always there.

1056
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,240
But it was like his job was to
take over the wilderness.

1057
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,720
I mean, like Andrew Jackson
wanted to displace the natives

1058
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:54,480
and just take over, right?
Right, and and I I was going to

1059
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,920
say I'm not AI don't dismiss
divine.

1060
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,760
I mean manifest destiny out of
hand, right.

1061
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,680
I understand that we did have
this land given to us.

1062
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:09,320
It was prophesied right to a
certain extent, but that didn't

1063
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:14,440
give us car Blanc to do horrible
crap right And and what you get

1064
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:19,040
when you read about how people
felt about manifest Destiny is

1065
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,720
it turns that divine Providence
thing of us being on God's side

1066
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:28,040
upside down and what it said was
God's on our side right.

1067
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:30,120
Well, when you right instead of
we.

1068
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,440
Need to be on God's side.
It was God better be on our side

1069
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,960
because we've right whatever we
please.

1070
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:36,520
We just want God to back us up
or something.

1071
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:37,400
Exactly.
And.

1072
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,120
So as you get to that point
where where no, no, no, no,

1073
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,800
God's on our side, you don't.
You can do no wrong, right?

1074
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:45,120
You can right?
You'll just justify.

1075
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,520
You'll say, well, God wants us
to, so we're going to do

1076
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,600
whatever we want to do.
Absolutely.

1077
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,080
And what does that lead to that
leads?

1078
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:55,040
Look, I don't care how you feel
about the Native Americans.

1079
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,560
If you can look at the Trail of
Tears and feel like that was a

1080
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:01,360
good thing, I would force you to
go back and reexamine the Book

1081
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:02,560
of Mormons.
Right.

1082
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,640
Besides, the fact that not just
the suffering of the people on

1083
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,600
the Trail of Tears is the reason
that they were on that Trail of

1084
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:11,880
Tears was an unlawful seizure of
their private property.

1085
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:15,360
Who wants to live in a country
where the government can just

1086
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:19,560
seize your all your land and say
get off and what was?

1087
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:23,120
Joseph Smith's major one of his
major gripes about Missouri.

1088
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,240
The the well that all their land
was.

1089
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:26,960
Stolen.
I mean like their land is the

1090
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:28,120
same thing.
The Mormon.

1091
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,160
Trail and the Trail of Tears
have a lot in common.

1092
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,560
They do they.
Do and again, it's done right

1093
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:38,240
and you can see this in the way
that that that the mobs treated

1094
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:43,600
the Mormons in Missouri.
It was it sounded as you go back

1095
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:46,320
and you read the their accounts,
their ideas.

1096
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:51,080
Well, we're ridden our land of
these godless heathens and

1097
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:54,200
whatever it takes and we'll do
that, right.

1098
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,640
And so my point in this is that
the same motive, right?

1099
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:00,320
It is the same.
Motive.

1100
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:02,880
It's 100% the same motive,
right?

1101
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:09,600
And, and in in a very real way,
it is contradictory to the to

1102
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,960
the covenant that we make in the
temple with the oath of

1103
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,080
vengeance, right?
The Oath of Vengeance puts you

1104
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,520
squarely.
On God's side.

1105
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:24,360
Not God on your side, right?
And that pray that God.

1106
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,960
Will do it what is right right
now if God wants to tell you I

1107
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,520
am now revealing that you need
to stand up for your rights

1108
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,600
raise the title of liberty and
stand up for yourself, then

1109
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,840
that's it's one thing but that's
supposed to be only after you

1110
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,440
prayed for God to do it first
and in.

1111
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:41,000
Some.
Cases you'll be like the Antony

1112
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,800
Fairleigh Heights and you will
lay down your life and say God,

1113
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:45,440
you have to fight my battle for
me.

1114
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:49,680
I swore I would never shed the
blood of the innocent again, and

1115
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,280
in as much as you've seen to
make my sword bright again, that

1116
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:56,200
then forgiving me of my sins and
giving me that white robe, I

1117
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,080
would rather be one of the
martyrs then shed the shed

1118
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:01,200
blood.
Well then, then that's what you

1119
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:03,320
got to do.
You know, it's like sometimes

1120
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:04,960
the Lord throws you in the fiery
furnace and he saves you.

1121
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:08,360
Sometimes you get thrown into
the fire like the people were

1122
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:11,840
thrown in in the city of Amnaiha
and you get burned.

1123
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:14,120
But.
You're supposed to.

1124
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:17,280
Be letting God decide?
Yep.

1125
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:19,680
And.
So that that's what I would say

1126
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:23,880
to to anyone who feels justified
on this is are you on God's side

1127
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:25,800
or are you trying to get God to
be on your side?

1128
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,520
Because there is a huge
difference in that.

1129
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,120
Yes, there is and.
One will.

1130
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:37,040
Lead you to peace and prosperity
and and maybe even forgiveness

1131
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:41,320
and reconciliation.
The other is going to lead to

1132
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:45,240
bloody, bloody conflict that you
will get your hands dirty with.

1133
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:50,520
And so when when someone starts
talking to me about, well, this

1134
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:52,960
is what we need to do and we
need to go in there and we need

1135
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,960
to do XY and Z, I'm like, did
God tell you that?

1136
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:58,960
Or is that what you want God to
tell you?

1137
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:03,760
Because those are two very
different things, And well, and.

1138
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:07,240
That's basically the whole
dichotomy between idolatry and

1139
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,080
worship, right?
Yes, that.

1140
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,360
We.
If we create a God of our own

1141
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,360
making that, that God's going to
do whatever we want, whatever I

1142
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,600
say, then that's an idol.
It's a false God.

1143
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:21,040
It's, it's me making God in my
own image so that he will be

1144
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:25,200
like, you know, I, I do whatever
Benjamin wants, you know, and

1145
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:26,520
no, no, no, the other way
around.

1146
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:28,840
I, Benjamin, better learn to do
what God wants.

1147
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:30,800
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

1148
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:36,080
And, and again, if, if you go by
the actual covenant you make in

1149
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:41,480
the temple there, it's designed,
I believe, to put you squarely

1150
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:45,800
on God's side, not, not, not God
on yours.

1151
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,800
And that's, that's a huge,
that's something that we all

1152
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:54,760
need to make make darn sure of
in everything we do that what we

1153
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,760
do is according to his will, not
our own, right.

1154
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,240
And so, you know, if we think
about this in terms of temples,

1155
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:05,640
what is it that we're doing in
the temple?

1156
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,440
We're learning something about
reconciliation with God.

1157
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:13,200
And I think that if we take that
big picture view and understand

1158
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:17,000
that central to that is this
oath of vengeance, we can look

1159
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,480
at this in the terms of the
ancient temples, the ancient

1160
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:24,120
worship in in the Bible, in all
Hebrew worship, animal

1161
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:28,600
sacrifices, and even in the New
Testament without the shedding

1162
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:31,240
of blood.
Viewing Christ as our great.

1163
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,640
High Priest, in other words,
like our temple president.

1164
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:38,360
These offering.
The these temple worship always

1165
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:40,800
centers around these offerings
to God, right?

1166
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,280
The ritual serves as a mean
means of atonement or thanks or

1167
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:46,560
worship to God.
It reconciles us to God.

1168
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:47,920
It brings us into God's
presence.

1169
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,640
And that's like the purpose of
temple ceremony, bring us into

1170
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:54,720
God's presence.
And so I think one of the

1171
01:06:54,720 --> 01:07:00,280
reasons why I'm so sad that the
mainstream LDS church abandoned

1172
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:04,560
the the oath of vengeance, and
they did so way back in the

1173
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:07,480
1920s.
And so we're talking pretty far

1174
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:09,400
back.
Most people who grew up in the

1175
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:11,880
mainstream LDS tradition are not
going to have ever even heard of

1176
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,800
this.
Which sadly also means that

1177
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:17,840
their grandparents or their
great grandparents broke their

1178
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,840
oath because they promised not
only that they would pray, but

1179
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:23,880
that they would teach their
children to pray.

1180
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:25,640
And their children and its
children.

1181
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:28,320
And to the third and 4th
generation, that's what they

1182
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:30,800
covenanted, that they would
teach their children to pray.

1183
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:35,640
And they didn't.
Because again, there was all

1184
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:38,200
this confusion, all this upset
after the Mountain Meadows

1185
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:39,680
Massacre.
Everyone was so ashamed.

1186
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:43,400
If you were in the Cedar City
area where it occurred,

1187
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:49,200
Enterprise, you know, heroin.
Whatever if.

1188
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:51,640
You're from any of those areas
where people from those

1189
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:56,080
communities participated?
They didn't talk about it.

1190
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:58,800
They didn't talk about anything
about it at all.

1191
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,920
And when John D Lee connected it
to the oath of vengeance, saying

1192
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:06,000
in his defense, hey, you know,
these people were bad guys.

1193
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,280
They were our enemies, that we
were at war.

1194
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:11,800
We were justified.
And he tried to justify himself

1195
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,880
as saying, I took an oath that
IA vengeance.

1196
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:17,960
And so I think I'm justified in
taking some, you know.

1197
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:23,200
They didn't pass it on to their.
Kids, it did not become a robust

1198
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:26,439
tradition in the LDS church.
I, for example, was raised LDS

1199
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,120
and I wasn't taught, oh, don't
forget to pray for the blood of

1200
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:30,399
the innocent.
Don't forget to pray for the

1201
01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:32,640
martyrs.
I wasn't taught that as a kid,

1202
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,560
I.
Should have been because that

1203
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:38,040
that.
Because there were people alive

1204
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:41,439
when I was born in the 1980s,
There were people who would have

1205
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,160
been alive in the 1920s.
They should have been very, very

1206
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:45,680
old.
But you'd think that they'd be

1207
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:47,960
getting up and vesting testimony
and saying don't forget to pray

1208
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:50,080
for the blood of the innocent.
Yeah.

1209
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:51,720
You know what I mean?
But I'd.

1210
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:54,240
I'd never heard that in fast and
testimony meeting when I was

1211
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,439
little, you know.
And so I think that that's part

1212
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:00,600
of it is that people were
ashamed.

1213
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:03,080
They were ashamed that this went
badly.

1214
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,920
They were ashamed that we didn't
always live up to the ideals.

1215
01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:10,120
And so they cut it out.
But here's the danger when you

1216
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,680
cut out something, even when it
looks like it makes a lot of

1217
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,200
sense to cut that out right now.
Franklin directors also really

1218
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,720
thought, look, this is a great
time to cut the South of

1219
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,439
vengeance thing because we are
hot on the heels of

1220
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:24,760
excommunicate members of the
CARM of the 12, the solar

1221
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:26,080
tribunes breathing down our
neck.

1222
01:09:26,359 --> 01:09:30,200
The Reed Smoot trials just a
decade before were a total

1223
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:32,520
embarrassment of the church.
They were talking about the oath

1224
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:34,160
of vengeance in there.
You know what?

1225
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:39,640
Let's just let's just chill out.
Let's not include this anymore.

1226
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,600
One of the reasons why that is
such a catastrophic mistake is

1227
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:46,720
these things aren't something
that just was invented recently.

1228
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:49,319
They might have thought.
They might have thought, oh, our

1229
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:53,120
present need is to not look like
we're bad Americans.

1230
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,600
We need to look like we're good
Americans and we're not praying

1231
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:58,760
for the government to be
destroyed or something like that

1232
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:02,640
because of the justices that
we've been suffering.

1233
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,880
We need to make sure that we
look like good neighbors is one

1234
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:07,560
of the ways they put it a good
neighbor policy.

1235
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:08,920
We need to look like good
neighbors.

1236
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:11,000
And so let's let's just get rid
of this.

1237
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:14,400
They're forgetting these
covenants existed from the

1238
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:16,120
foundation of the world we're
taught.

1239
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:18,560
And then you look in the
Scriptures and it's like, Oh my

1240
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:22,360
gosh, in Genesis, we're talking
about the oath of vengeance.

1241
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:24,800
In Genesis, we're talking about
the oath of vengeance.

1242
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,200
In Leviticus, we're talking
about the oath of vengeance

1243
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,560
throughout the entire Bible and
it and, and what does it end

1244
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:32,000
with?
It doesn't end with, Oh, by the

1245
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,320
way, the Old Testament doesn't
matter anymore.

1246
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:36,960
Forget the oath of vengeance.
We literally have chapters on

1247
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,040
the oath of vengeance in the
Book of Revelation, in the last

1248
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:41,960
book of the Bible in the New
Testament, oath of vengeance,

1249
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:43,720
oath of vengeance, oath of
vengeance all over the place.

1250
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:49,080
It's because in the ancient
temple, and that's why I so

1251
01:10:49,480 --> 01:10:52,200
harkening back to what I've
already gotten away from, is

1252
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,680
think about this in the context
of broader temple worship.

1253
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:56,800
What?
Were the ancient?

1254
01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:01,480
Israelites doing what was what
were the ancient peoples before

1255
01:11:01,480 --> 01:11:03,680
Israel doing the ancient
patriarchs.

1256
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,120
They were going to the temple to
offer these offerings and one of

1257
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,680
the offerings, one of the
central offerings and one of the

1258
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,360
most important offerings in the
middle, the whole thing is to

1259
01:11:13,480 --> 01:11:17,840
give up.
The sacrifices of that are the

1260
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:21,760
sacrifices of the heart, right?
And and Jesus explains these

1261
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:23,520
things as the broken heart and
the contrite spirit.

1262
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:25,320
This is the this is the ultimate
offering of the temple.

1263
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:28,960
And and so.
You have things like penalties

1264
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:31,520
as well in the temple and
covenants and the oath of

1265
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:34,160
vengeance.
And when you?

1266
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:37,960
Take those things out.
The modern temple.

1267
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:39,720
No longer resembles the ancient
temple.

1268
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:43,720
See the ancient temple with
these animal sacrifices and all

1269
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:46,160
of these steps that you had to
take to approach the throne of

1270
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:49,600
God.
There was a system to.

1271
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:53,080
It that we no longer relate to
because the Maidenstream LDS

1272
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:55,640
temple now no longer does
penalties.

1273
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:59,520
Well, I understand that Jesus
was saying you don't have to

1274
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:05,040
actually kill the animal to
demonstrate the sacrifice.

1275
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:10,520
I want you to be the sacrifice.
Instead of us killing the

1276
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:15,880
innocent lamb, you put yourself
in the place of Adam, yourself

1277
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:19,800
in the place of Jesus Christ.
You become the sacrifice

1278
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:21,080
yourself.
Yep.

1279
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:23,560
And.
And what would have happened in

1280
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,480
the ancient temple is, yes, they
would have killed the lamb, they

1281
01:12:26,480 --> 01:12:30,720
would have performed the these
ritual penalties, they would

1282
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:32,400
have actually performed them in
the temple.

1283
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:36,640
But then the priests would have
told you this is a token of the

1284
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:42,840
covenant that is a symbol so
that you will understand sin and

1285
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:48,640
death and the consequences and
redemption and purity that comes

1286
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:52,040
because of it.
And so blood is the central

1287
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:54,920
theme of all the all of the
covenants.

1288
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:57,400
Blood is the central theme of
all of these sacrifices.

1289
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:01,040
Blood makes you unclean because
blood represents death.

1290
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,800
But then blood makes you clean,
because blood represents life.

1291
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:07,000
Right.
And so.

1292
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,600
By the blood of the lamb, we are
cleansed.

1293
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:12,240
And so throughout the New
Testament, they talk about the

1294
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:14,400
blood of the lamb still, they
talk about the great high

1295
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:15,400
priest, Jesus Christ.
Why?

1296
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:18,560
Because they're trying to say,
they're trying to say to people

1297
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:20,920
who are familiar with temple
ceremony, they're they're who

1298
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,480
are from who were familiar with
the animal sacrifices.

1299
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:26,040
This is what it means.
Yep.

1300
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:28,640
But now.
We're so far divorced from that.

1301
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,760
We've become a Gentile Church of
Gentile people all around the

1302
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:35,800
world doing ceremonies that are
so disconnected now from that

1303
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:38,640
original ritual that we don't
even see it.

1304
01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:42,040
So much so even that in the
1920s, they're like, I guess we

1305
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:44,200
don't really have to do this
oath of vengeance where it's

1306
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:45,960
like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
If you understood the ancient

1307
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,920
temple service, this is a
central theme.

1308
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:52,160
And if we don't have something
to hearken back to, to look to

1309
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:55,400
the ancient temple, to look to
the sacrifices, how are we

1310
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:58,800
supposed to understand the
sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

1311
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:02,360
How are we supposed to
understand the hard things that

1312
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:05,640
in this world there is death and
in this world there is sin, and

1313
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:09,760
in this world there's murder and
and war and suffering?

1314
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:13,640
What we've done by.
Putting the gloves on instead of

1315
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:17,160
taking them off, I guess, or by
whitewashing it or something

1316
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:19,160
like that.
By by making this easier to

1317
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,320
digest, we've taken the meat of
the gospel away.

1318
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:28,640
By doing that, we aren't
equipped, I think, anymore to

1319
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:32,600
face the hard reality of what
evil actually is.

1320
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,080
So when evil rears its ugly
head, we don't go, oh, I know

1321
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,640
what that is.
I pray that God save us from

1322
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,320
war.
We look at war and we go, oh

1323
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:43,320
wow, my religion didn't prepare
me for this.

1324
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:47,920
Maybe God has abandoned us and
people don't have Therefore the

1325
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:54,160
fortitude to face the fact that
religion is not designed just to

1326
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,240
make us feel good and sit around
and hold hands and sing go by.

1327
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:02,600
Ah, religion is supposed to
fortify US against the true, the

1328
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:06,520
true difficulties of this world,
so that we can look the devil in

1329
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:10,800
the eye like Moses did and say,
where is your glory that I

1330
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:14,000
should worship you?
Right to to face.

1331
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:18,840
Evil in the face and not be
overcome by it, because that's

1332
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:23,160
what we're supposed to be doing.
And and yet we've all become a

1333
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:28,200
milquetoast because milquetoast
ceremonies no longer make us

1334
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:31,880
face hard questions.
And if we don't face the hard

1335
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:35,440
questions, right, I mean, so and
so, you know, I look at, I look

1336
01:15:35,440 --> 01:15:39,040
at things like.
I look at things like.

1337
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:41,000
War in the middle.
East.

1338
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:44,760
Like we've talked about as well.
And I think to myself, if only

1339
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:49,360
these people really understood.
The consequence of.

1340
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:51,080
Sin.
Yeah.

1341
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:54,720
If they only understood.
That it is their own life that

1342
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:59,560
is sacrificed.
The animals only vicarious for

1343
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:02,200
you, right?
That it is you who.

1344
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:05,280
Must place your own heart on the
altar of God's temple.

1345
01:16:05,480 --> 01:16:10,040
For as we were taught in the New
Testament, consider that you are

1346
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:12,920
the temple of God, your body.
Think of your own body as the

1347
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:14,800
temple itself.
Therefore, the heart is the

1348
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:16,400
altar.
Are you willing to place your

1349
01:16:16,400 --> 01:16:19,440
heart on the altar?
Are you willing to be the animal

1350
01:16:19,440 --> 01:16:24,600
sacrifice is you?
Are you willing to, to realize

1351
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:28,680
that if you will become innocent
through the blood of the Lamb,

1352
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:30,760
through the, through Jesus
Christ, if you are the innocent

1353
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:35,520
1 you have to also be willing to
be like the martyrs in the Book

1354
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:39,400
of Revelation that you're you,
you are crushed beneath the

1355
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:41,760
altar of the temple and your own
innocent blood, Christ out from

1356
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:46,200
beneath the altar for justice.
We all have these losses in our

1357
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:48,840
life.
So when we pray and we reach out

1358
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:54,120
to God and say, God, give me
justice, please help me in your,

1359
01:16:54,480 --> 01:16:59,120
in your own Gethsemane, you have
to recognize that what kind of

1360
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:03,480
God is going to answer you?
Only the kind of God who has the

1361
01:17:03,480 --> 01:17:06,520
power that is greater than this
world, greater than the God of

1362
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:09,800
this world, greater than you
know, because the devil makes

1363
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:11,160
himself the God of this world,
right?

1364
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:13,760
Yep.
Our true God has to be more

1365
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:15,320
powerful than him.
Yep.

1366
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:16,360
So that no.
Matter what.

1367
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:19,680
Death is meted out no matter
what injustices are done.

1368
01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:25,000
We can real safely rely and
place.

1369
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,080
Our faith in a.
God who can overcome it?

1370
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:30,120
Absolutely.
And I think that.

1371
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:34,960
Without the oath of vengeance,
we no longer understand.

1372
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:38,920
That God can.
Do that for us and that we

1373
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:42,160
should put our trust in Him.
Yeah.

1374
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:46,200
Yeah.
There, there were so many.

1375
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:48,960
Things that you hit on right
there that I, that I want to

1376
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:51,960
take a look at, I won't go back
to, to the Mountain Meadows

1377
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:53,600
Massacre thing, right?
Yep.

1378
01:17:54,800 --> 01:18:00,200
Because the one thing that that
very rarely gets pointed out is

1379
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:04,320
John D Lee has kind of a close
relationship with Brigham Young.

1380
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:06,680
It does.
And there's another temple

1381
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:09,840
ceremony involved there, too.
He was seals him by the Law of

1382
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:13,120
adoption, which is a ceremony
that was discontinued in the

1383
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:16,400
1921 Ordinance Book at the same
time as the Oath of Vengeance

1384
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:23,400
was discontinued nonetheless.
Brigham says, you know, we're

1385
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:25,480
going to let justice take its
course here.

1386
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:30,120
And my son or not, you did
wrong, wrong on this issue.

1387
01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:34,920
And you have to, you have to pay
for this, right?

1388
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:36,640
Yeah.
Which is blood.

1389
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:38,120
Atonement.
So so if.

1390
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:41,400
People start getting too excited
about Brigham just giving the

1391
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:43,920
wink and the nod and being like,
you did good, son.

1392
01:18:44,360 --> 01:18:46,280
I would, I would back that up a
little bit.

1393
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:49,160
That is not what Brigham was
doing at all.

1394
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:55,200
The, the, the, the, the next
thing I want to say you talked

1395
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:58,680
about, you know, because of the
removal of the oath of

1396
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:03,160
vengeance, we no longer have a
complete narrative, right?

1397
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:07,760
One of the things that I love
about Mormonism is it completes

1398
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:11,000
the story.
It's like in this life, we are

1399
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:14,680
kind of dropped in right in the
middle, right?

1400
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:18,920
And without these ceremonies,
without these knowledge, without

1401
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:23,360
this knowledge we're we're,
we're kind of like.

1402
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,800
Put in a helicopter.
Blindfolded, taken out in the

1403
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:30,760
middle of somewhere and just
dropped off without a map and

1404
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:33,720
said now good luck on finding
civilization, right?

1405
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:38,080
And and so.
That narrative, that's apostasy.

1406
01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:40,480
Yes, exactly.
You don't have a map.

1407
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:43,320
This the the.
Narrative becomes super

1408
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:46,360
important, right and I believe
God speaks to us through

1409
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:50,000
narratives a lot of times, right
especially in scripture, right

1410
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:55,440
and so by by getting rid of of
the oath of vengeance, we have

1411
01:19:55,440 --> 01:20:00,200
upset the narrative we have we
have made what was supposed to

1412
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:05,800
be 1 continuous story into.
Not even a sequel, right?

1413
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:08,000
It's it's just a different story
altogether.

1414
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,960
It's like a different story and.
And this is the danger, right?

1415
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:16,240
Is that are we saved by the
gospel of Jesus Christ, or do we

1416
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:19,720
make another gospel?
And if we're making another?

1417
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:21,840
Gospel.
Then there is no power in it,

1418
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:26,640
there's no salvation in it.
It has to be God's or it's

1419
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:30,120
man's.
Right man's false gospel.

1420
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,480
And so and so, yeah, I think
that's exactly, you know, the

1421
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:38,640
the danger of making your own
thing and modifying history,

1422
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:43,080
making your own story up.
It might sound comforting.

1423
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:45,760
Right.
There's a lot of comfort in lies

1424
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:48,000
because it makes us very
comfortable with wherever we

1425
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:50,360
are.
Truth, on the other hand, says

1426
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:52,480
I'm never going to let you be
comfortable until you make

1427
01:20:52,480 --> 01:20:55,400
yourself conform yourself.
Yep to.

1428
01:20:56,080 --> 01:20:58,240
To me, lies are.
Soft and squishy, they let you

1429
01:20:58,240 --> 01:21:01,640
be comfortable wherever you are,
and the truth instead prods you

1430
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:06,000
to to make your life in
conformity with it.

1431
01:21:07,480 --> 01:21:09,720
You know when I and.
You know this is one of the

1432
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:11,240
reasons.
Why it's a big frustrating

1433
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:14,040
frustration with the American
Pride and evil right now is that

1434
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:16,480
it is not good history.
It is fiction.

1435
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:18,040
It isn't even historical
fiction.

1436
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:21,160
It's fictionalized history.
It's more like the man in the

1437
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:23,120
High Tower was that
fictionalized history about what

1438
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:25,560
we lost in the Second World War.
That's basically what American

1439
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:29,160
Pride and Evil is, is it's anti
Mormon alternate history.

1440
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:32,720
And that's why it's so dangerous
right now to have these kinds of

1441
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:35,320
alternate histories going around
because it really encourages the

1442
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,080
same kind of prejudice again,
which is going to do what?

1443
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:40,880
It's going to get a bunch of
people to say, Oh yeah, Mormons

1444
01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:42,560
are bad.
Let's do violence to Mormons.

1445
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:43,840
And then what are you going to
get?

1446
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:45,480
You're going to get a bunch of
Mormons who are going to say

1447
01:21:45,480 --> 01:21:47,120
we're justified in fighting
back.

1448
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:51,440
And, and it leads into that same
downward spiral that will make

1449
01:21:51,440 --> 01:21:52,640
the whole world blind and
toothless.

1450
01:21:53,480 --> 01:21:56,120
We don't it's it's a dangerous.
It's a dangerous thing.

1451
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,840
So, I mean, I do not recommend
anybody watch the show.

1452
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:01,840
It is nothing but violence.
Pornography essentially is what

1453
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:02,880
it is.
Yeah.

1454
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:05,720
I, I I took.
That trip myself.

1455
01:22:06,040 --> 01:22:08,880
Oh, did you grew American Prime?
But it's it's it's ugly.

1456
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,080
It's really very ugly to me,
Ben.

1457
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:15,520
It was, on some level it was
even worse than Under the Banner

1458
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:17,320
of Heaven.
Oh yeah, definitely.

1459
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:19,640
I think it's very much worse
under the matter of heaven is

1460
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:23,440
supposed to be about a couple of
people who justified who use

1461
01:22:23,440 --> 01:22:25,520
religion to justify their
violence, But that doesn't

1462
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:27,200
necessarily mean that all
religion is violent.

1463
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:30,280
But I think American primeval is
basically trying to say

1464
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:33,040
everybody in the Wild West was a
psychotic murderer, all of them.

1465
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:36,600
And you know, and that's really
scary.

1466
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:39,880
You know, just it's a mockery of
our ancestors.

1467
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:43,680
I, I don't appreciate it And,
but, but even then, if it, if

1468
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:45,360
that was the worst of it, I, I
could live with it.

1469
01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:48,040
The reason why I'm frustrated
with these types of things is

1470
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:50,640
because it's not about the past.
It's not about whether or not

1471
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:54,160
Brigham Young was a good guy.
These types of shows are about

1472
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:56,680
whether or not you get to
mistreat your Mormon neighbors

1473
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:59,880
today.
And the encouragement of that

1474
01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:03,320
kind of violence is why I worry
that we're very that a lot of

1475
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:06,600
people who make media are very
irresponsible or maybe they're

1476
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:11,520
being deliberately harmful
because a television program, it

1477
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:14,240
programs people, that's what
they call it, the television

1478
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:17,360
program, it programs the way you
think it changes your worldview.

1479
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:22,000
And if your worldview of Mormons
is American primeval, well, then

1480
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:25,360
you're going to start justifying
yourself in being very unkind to

1481
01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:28,400
your Mormon neighbors.
And that is not the kind of

1482
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:30,920
world that we want.
Why do we want to encourage that

1483
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:34,200
in the world today?
Absolutely, absolutely.

1484
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:38,400
So yeah, there's there.
There is so much there to look

1485
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:40,800
at there.
There's one other thing I wanted

1486
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:43,640
to look at with the Oath of
Vengeance, and this dawned on me

1487
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:46,600
actually just this morning, as I
was just saying, you know,

1488
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:51,200
reading my scriptures, getting
my morning prayers in, and

1489
01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:54,440
that's this.
I'm going to ask you a question.

1490
01:23:55,120 --> 01:24:00,000
Jesus really hung out with
people who in his mortal

1491
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:03,920
ministry, right?
So I'm going to focus.

1492
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:06,880
On the New Testament, he's
hanging out with sinners.

1493
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:12,360
He's hanging out with really the
oppressed class right of, of, of

1494
01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:18,360
people in, in in the old world.
And he's very.

1495
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:22,960
Cognizant of their plight, now
we can certainly even go back

1496
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:27,080
further.
We can go back to Isaiah and we

1497
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:31,680
can go back to, we can go back
to Ezekiel.

1498
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:36,520
We can go back to Jeremiah and
all three of that, all three.

1499
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:38,880
Of those prophets talked a lot
about this temple theology, but

1500
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:41,400
again in veiled terms Yep, and
that's why I believe it's

1501
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:43,280
ancient but yes and and one of
the.

1502
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:46,440
Big things and and especially
Jeremiah, right?

1503
01:24:46,440 --> 01:24:50,240
Like, I am thankful every day I
didn't have to be Jeremiah

1504
01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:53,320
because that dude was not a
happy man, right?

1505
01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:55,800
Yes, well, he wrote.
The Book of Lamentations, right

1506
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:00,800
when, when, when your.
Book is entitled essentially

1507
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:02,160
Sorrow.
Yeah.

1508
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:04,560
You're not, you're not the life
of the party, right.

1509
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:06,280
It's.
Very sad.

1510
01:25:07,240 --> 01:25:09,400
But.
One of the big critiques that

1511
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:15,080
the Lord tells Jeremiah to tell
Israel is you've abandoned the

1512
01:25:15,080 --> 01:25:18,120
widows and the orphans.
Right, you've just.

1513
01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:21,440
Turned your back on them.
Now we go forward to Christ's

1514
01:25:21,440 --> 01:25:24,880
mortal ministry.
He's basically telling everybody

1515
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:28,120
the same thing, right?
Oh, you're a Pharisee.

1516
01:25:28,320 --> 01:25:30,360
What does that mean?
How you treating these folks?

1517
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:33,520
Sadducees, same thing.
Rome, what are you doing right?

1518
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:38,320
And so in some ways.
The Bible itself.

1519
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:42,640
Is a book about what we should
do to the oppressed class.

1520
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:46,920
Right, Right.
I'm going to make a connection.

1521
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:48,680
Here and you can tell me if I'm
off base.

1522
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:53,520
We pray in.
The oath of vengeance for the

1523
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:56,320
blood of the innocent.
Right and in.

1524
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:57,720
Essence, that's what we're doing
it.

1525
01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:00,520
It may have different verbiage,
but it's there and there's

1526
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:02,680
various.
And, and, but, but yeah, there's

1527
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:06,000
a theme there, right?
About injustice, Yes.

1528
01:26:06,400 --> 01:26:10,080
Yes.
And so I think in in a way this

1529
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:16,960
this is also helping us to be
more vigilant for those in that

1530
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:21,200
class who have been the
oppressed, who have been the

1531
01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:24,840
damaged.
Now the Lord's very careful in

1532
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:29,320
that covenant that we take to be
like, don't go look for

1533
01:26:29,320 --> 01:26:32,120
vengeance.
So OK, so we're not going to

1534
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:33,600
look for vengeance.
We're going to pray for that.

1535
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:37,640
God does what the the meeting
out of the the just deserves.

1536
01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:41,720
So what am I going to do?
Well, if we're looking for

1537
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:45,280
something to do about that,
maybe this is a way the Lord is

1538
01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:49,320
trying to spur us on to be like,
go relieve their suffering, go

1539
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:52,120
relieve the distressed.
Go relieve the distressed.

1540
01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:55,440
Because now we're, we're, we're,
we've kind of had our eyes open

1541
01:26:55,440 --> 01:26:58,080
to this injustice that has
happened, right?

1542
01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:00,120
Well, in fact, let me let me
give.

1543
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:02,320
A little bit of context for that
in the temple, right?

1544
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:05,080
Obedience.
We I'm.

1545
01:27:05,480 --> 01:27:08,080
Going to list some covenants.
Here covenants obedience, we

1546
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:13,160
covenant sacrifice, we covenant
to give up every unholy and

1547
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:18,360
emperor practice we receive.
We receive in return the oath of

1548
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:23,360
vengeance and then we say that
we will consecrate.

1549
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:27,720
Well, what is it that?
So what is it where?

1550
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:30,240
So there's a sacrifice.
There's always a give and take

1551
01:27:30,440 --> 01:27:32,480
in a sacrifice, right?
You're giving something up, you

1552
01:27:32,480 --> 01:27:36,120
give up your animal, you give up
your sin, you give up something,

1553
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:38,000
and then in return you receive a
blessing.

1554
01:27:38,440 --> 01:27:41,440
Well, what are we doing?
First we have to pray.

1555
01:27:41,440 --> 01:27:44,520
So we're cleansing our inner
vessel, and then we cleanse the

1556
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:47,920
outer vessel of the world by
doing what consecrating all that

1557
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:51,920
we possess to for the
establishment of Zion, we

1558
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:54,480
covenant.
So right after we say that we're

1559
01:27:54,480 --> 01:27:57,480
going to pray for justice on the
earth, then we covenant to give

1560
01:27:57,480 --> 01:28:00,520
up all our earthly goods, all
earthly things.

1561
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:03,960
For the building.
Up of the Kingdom of God on the

1562
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:05,360
earth and the establishment of
Zion.

1563
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:06,560
That is the next covenant,
right?

1564
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:10,600
Why is that?
Why is that comes right after?

1565
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:14,400
I think it comes because, yeah,
exactly like you're saying,

1566
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:15,680
right?
So all these things are

1567
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:18,160
interconnected.
You can't pray for God to do

1568
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:19,920
justice and then do injustice
yourself.

1569
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:24,480
And you can't pray for God to
save the innocent and not feel

1570
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:26,880
pity for the innocent and do
your best you can for the

1571
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:27,960
innocent that are still among
you.

1572
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:29,760
Yeah.
Right.

1573
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:33,640
And so.
And So what is what is Zion that

1574
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:36,640
we're covenanting for is that
there shall be no poor among us,

1575
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:40,640
no oppressed class, right?
We will all be.

1576
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,560
Made rich in the riches of the
blessings of God.

1577
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:45,160
Yep.
Yep.

1578
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:51,320
And so in in in a very cool way.
If we're.

1579
01:28:51,320 --> 01:28:54,600
Mindful of the covenants we're
taking and we follow again, the

1580
01:28:54,600 --> 01:28:58,640
narrative of the temple, right
the the story that it's teaching

1581
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:02,160
us.
And I want to be careful here to

1582
01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:03,720
say it's not just a story,
right.

1583
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:08,600
I believe many of those things
took place and so sure and so,

1584
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:10,800
but we're dealing.
With we're dealing with even

1585
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:13,160
things that exist in Israel
history, we're dealing with them

1586
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:15,800
as allegory, at least, yes.
As a lesson.

1587
01:29:16,160 --> 01:29:17,560
Yep, and.
So.

1588
01:29:18,040 --> 01:29:21,680
And so as as we're looking at
this, it opens our eyes to the

1589
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:24,960
plight of those who have been
oppressed, those who have had

1590
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:28,320
injustice done.
And now that we've given the

1591
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:31,560
vengeance portion to God, well,
what's left for us?

1592
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:37,120
What's left for us is to go bind
up the wounds of those who have

1593
01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:42,320
been hurt, bind up the hearts of
the broken hearted, to minister

1594
01:29:42,320 --> 01:29:46,560
to the widows and to the orphans
and to all of those those people

1595
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:48,960
who have had injustice done to
them.

1596
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:54,280
And as Mormons, if there's any
religious class within the

1597
01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:58,480
United States that should
understand what it feels like to

1598
01:29:58,480 --> 01:30:00,960
have injustice done should be
us.

1599
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:02,440
I mean, sure.
Well.

1600
01:30:02,440 --> 01:30:06,200
And Jews, of course.
And Jews is a major problem

1601
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:09,200
still, right?
And so we you.

1602
01:30:09,200 --> 01:30:14,040
Know and again, right and and we
can see that in in, in, in

1603
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:18,440
Jewish history, right, their
history is one of, of them being

1604
01:30:18,440 --> 01:30:25,880
oppressed of, of being enslaved
or of being under subjugation to

1605
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:28,600
another, another ruling power,
right.

1606
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:30,360
Well, and this is one of the
reasons.

1607
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:36,960
Why it's so sad that Temple
Judaism was lost in the apostasy

1608
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:42,800
as well, Because again, these
themes are so intimately

1609
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:45,960
connected to the ancient temple
service that you know, you're,

1610
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:49,480
you're historian types, maybe
even textual critics to a

1611
01:30:49,480 --> 01:30:51,160
certain extent.
But these people who try to look

1612
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:53,760
back and say what, what?
What was this stuff in the

1613
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:56,080
ancient times?
Hugh Nibbly.

1614
01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:58,000
Nibbly, of course, is one of our
favorites.

1615
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:00,120
That's a Mormon who wanted to
talk about how the ancient

1616
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:05,400
Egyptian mysteries and all these
things are vestiges of ancient

1617
01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:08,120
temple practice.
What do you find in those?

1618
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:13,160
You find in almost all of those
things an oath, some kind of.

1619
01:31:13,160 --> 01:31:15,880
Oath.
That you will be the defender of

1620
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:20,440
the innocent.
The Sikhs, for example, the Sikh

1621
01:31:20,440 --> 01:31:22,640
religion was really only
established in the 1600s.

1622
01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:26,600
But even the Sikhs will talk
about how it is their job to

1623
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:28,560
defend the innocent.
Yeah, right.

1624
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:32,400
Because all of these temple
practices, whether in Islam or

1625
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:36,400
Christianity or, or even the
ancient Egyptian mysteries,

1626
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:40,480
almost always have this element,
this element of the oath of

1627
01:31:40,480 --> 01:31:46,520
vengeance that your duty is to
pray and then to enact in the

1628
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:50,680
world justice, to enact in the
world something better.

1629
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:56,200
And you know, I think This is
why, This is why the temple was

1630
01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:59,600
the center of difficulty in the
ancient world.

1631
01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:02,200
This is why the Babylonians
destroyed the temple.

1632
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:04,880
This is why the Selyucids
destroyed the temple.

1633
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:08,000
The temple is this symbol of
freedom.

1634
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:11,480
It's a central portion of the
faith that becomes a symbol of

1635
01:32:11,480 --> 01:32:14,600
saying we will do what is right
no matter what.

1636
01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:17,120
Absolutely.
When?

1637
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:22,520
You do that, you're not you're
not so easily subjugated, right.

1638
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:25,840
Anybody who's a tyrant who wants
to subjugate mankind must fight

1639
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:30,960
the temple must change the must
do something to alter it so that

1640
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:36,720
it cannot inspire those who go
to fight against injustice to

1641
01:32:36,720 --> 01:32:40,880
pray for the end of injustice.
If you know otherwise, you're

1642
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:43,960
you are setting up your own
downfall because these

1643
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:45,600
institutions have always
existed.

1644
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:49,120
Another one that's worth
bringing up but deserves its own

1645
01:32:50,280 --> 01:32:54,120
deserves its own episode.
Is Freemasonry right?

1646
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:57,760
Freemasonry of.
Course also tries to preserve

1647
01:32:57,760 --> 01:33:00,760
and talk about ancient mystery
schools and things like that.

1648
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:03,000
Doesn't always do them in
exactly the same form that every

1649
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:05,480
archaeologist does or Hugh
Nibley does, but it's another

1650
01:33:05,480 --> 01:33:07,360
one of those.
And interestingly enough, in the

1651
01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:11,040
Scottish Rite, of which I'm a
member, there are additional

1652
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:16,080
teachings about the Book of
Revelation and the book and, and

1653
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:20,120
other books of the Bible, right.
So Masons look to the Bible

1654
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:23,240
generally for their, for their
themes.

1655
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:26,480
And wouldn't you know it, it
comes up again in Freemasonry as

1656
01:33:26,480 --> 01:33:30,520
well.
That's the one of the degrees

1657
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:35,840
that I'm in reenacts portions of
the of the Book of Revelation

1658
01:33:36,520 --> 01:33:40,520
and we talk about the martyrs
beneath the throne that cry out

1659
01:33:40,520 --> 01:33:43,520
for vengeance.
And, and it was an interesting

1660
01:33:43,520 --> 01:33:48,120
reminder to me to see this
parallel between the the temple

1661
01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:52,520
and Mormonism and Freemason
traditions that look, there it

1662
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:55,160
is again.
You know, the same themes

1663
01:33:55,160 --> 01:33:58,000
brought up.
That's not to say that it's an.

1664
01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:00,120
Exact copy.
It's not even remotely a copy.

1665
01:34:00,920 --> 01:34:05,680
The Mormon temple ceremonies
simply there are themes in

1666
01:34:05,680 --> 01:34:08,800
Commonwealth Masonry, but I I
again, it takes, it'll take

1667
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:12,080
another episode, but I strongly
refute the idea that Mormon

1668
01:34:12,080 --> 01:34:14,920
temple ceremonies are Masonic
RIP offs or something like that.

1669
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:16,320
People will make this
accusation.

1670
01:34:16,320 --> 01:34:19,800
It's false.
Yeah, but in as much as

1671
01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:24,120
Mormonism and Masonry and
Christianity and Judaism and the

1672
01:34:24,120 --> 01:34:27,920
Sikhs and tons of other people
all come from the similar themes

1673
01:34:28,120 --> 01:34:32,160
of looking to God for justice,
you're going to see a bunch of

1674
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:34,520
themes repeated over and over
again in all faiths.

1675
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:37,080
Right.
Absolutely.

1676
01:34:37,120 --> 01:34:39,320
That's really the.
Main thing these parallels are

1677
01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:42,160
about divine truth that I think
you can find in all religions.

1678
01:34:42,560 --> 01:34:45,200
Yep, Yep.
You know, I'm, I'm going to end

1679
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:48,400
with this and I'll turn it over
to you to, to, to, to say what

1680
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:52,360
you want to say at the end here.
Or if we've missed something.

1681
01:34:52,360 --> 01:34:54,040
You can, you can bring that up
there too.

1682
01:34:54,040 --> 01:35:00,640
But as, as we look at the Oath
of vengeance, right, and as as

1683
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:03,560
people who, who follow Christ,
we, we cringe at the word

1684
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:07,080
vengeance sometimes and so,
well, a lot.

1685
01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:10,480
Of times there's this religion
of nice, I think, where people

1686
01:35:10,480 --> 01:35:14,320
are like the only thing Jesus
ever said was don't judge.

1687
01:35:14,840 --> 01:35:17,960
And so don't you dare judge me
for my evils or my sins or

1688
01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:20,400
whatever, because don't judge
and ignore the rest of the

1689
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:22,640
Bible, yeah.
Because the religion of.

1690
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:24,720
Just be extra nice.
And Jesus was just a hippie who

1691
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:27,120
said be nice and and don't you
dare quote anything else.

1692
01:35:27,120 --> 01:35:32,160
And it's like, I'm sorry, this
is way deeper, way more involved

1693
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:34,120
in that.
But yes, I I think that there's

1694
01:35:34,120 --> 01:35:38,600
a strong impulse in our world
today to make that religion

1695
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,520
become the centerpieces, not.
The only theme.

1696
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:44,920
Right you.
Know I will I when people start

1697
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:49,000
getting because look, I'm a guy
who loves unity, but I'm not a

1698
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:51,640
guy who believes in unity at all
costs, right?

1699
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:53,880
That was tried unity through
tyranny.

1700
01:35:53,880 --> 01:35:55,640
No thank you.
Unity through conformity.

1701
01:35:55,640 --> 01:35:57,280
No thank you.
That was tried.

1702
01:35:57,440 --> 01:35:59,280
That was tried with Nimrod,
right?

1703
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:01,840
And the Lord had to come down,
every tyrant ever since.

1704
01:36:02,160 --> 01:36:03,840
Right, the Lord.
Came down and said, look, the

1705
01:36:03,840 --> 01:36:06,080
people are one and nothing will
be withheld from them.

1706
01:36:06,080 --> 01:36:08,880
So we got to scatter them and we
got to confuse our language,

1707
01:36:09,080 --> 01:36:11,240
right?
In that instance the Lord wasn't

1708
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:15,720
real cool with unity and and
'cause they were united.

1709
01:36:15,720 --> 01:36:18,400
Against God is what it was right
and.

1710
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:22,440
And and even the Prince of Peace
himself, the savior in Matthew

1711
01:36:22,440 --> 01:36:26,880
10, I want to say it's 33
through about 38 talks about

1712
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:29,280
don't think I'm come for to
bring peace.

1713
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:32,920
I came to bring a sword, right?
I'm going to divide mother and

1714
01:36:33,160 --> 01:36:35,400
against daughter and father
against son, right?

1715
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:38,240
It's there, right.
And again, back to your point,

1716
01:36:38,280 --> 01:36:40,240
you know, it's not the cult of
nice.

1717
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:43,320
It's it's, it's the religion of
Jesus.

1718
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:49,240
Now I know that vengeance.
Sounds spooky and scary, but I

1719
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:52,040
think we've done a really good
job of one tying this back to

1720
01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:54,880
the ancients all the way back to
to Genesis.

1721
01:36:55,600 --> 01:36:59,280
We, you know, and, and we've
done a really deep dive on how

1722
01:36:59,280 --> 01:37:03,120
this is not only beneficial for
us as people physically and

1723
01:37:03,120 --> 01:37:05,680
spiritually, it benefits
society.

1724
01:37:05,680 --> 01:37:09,560
It's a civilizing oath, right?
And I think so, yeah.

1725
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:10,800
Despite.
What It's a.

1726
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:13,320
Prayer for peace is what it is.
Absolutely.

1727
01:37:13,400 --> 01:37:15,760
And and if we don't pray for
that, what are we left with?

1728
01:37:16,240 --> 01:37:19,640
Right, Right.
And so my hope is, is that

1729
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:23,160
through this discussion, people
out there who who you know,

1730
01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:27,040
because let's face it, unless
you've been a fundamentalist

1731
01:37:27,040 --> 01:37:30,040
who's been really well schooled
in temple theology and taken

1732
01:37:30,040 --> 01:37:32,040
those ordinances, which is rare
even amongst.

1733
01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:34,360
Fundamentalists.
Unfortunately, it really is.

1734
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:39,560
It really is we.
Hopefully it's been.

1735
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:42,040
Demystified now, right?
It's been right.

1736
01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:44,440
So if anybody.
Came into this episode being

1737
01:37:44,440 --> 01:37:45,840
like, what's this oath of
vengeance thing?

1738
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:47,360
I think that's about the
mountain mountains massacre.

1739
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:48,880
Something terrible.
Hopefully they've gotten at

1740
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:50,960
least a general picture of kind
of right.

1741
01:37:51,680 --> 01:37:53,000
Right this.
Is a good thing.

1742
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:57,320
This is there for for quite
frankly, the establishment of

1743
01:37:57,320 --> 01:38:00,880
Zion as well as your personal
growth and your personal

1744
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:05,640
progression as a disciple of
Jesus Christ and, and take it

1745
01:38:05,640 --> 01:38:08,400
for what it really does and what
it really says.

1746
01:38:09,080 --> 01:38:14,320
Not judging it based off of one
word so well, not basing off.

1747
01:38:14,320 --> 01:38:17,120
Of the lies that have been told
about it, like absolutely no,

1748
01:38:17,120 --> 01:38:18,080
that's.
It it's based that.

1749
01:38:18,080 --> 01:38:20,960
'D be basically like ignoring
the history books and watching

1750
01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:24,160
American private evil instead.
It's you know what I mean?

1751
01:38:24,160 --> 01:38:28,560
It's like, right, what is it
really versus what is it's the

1752
01:38:28,560 --> 01:38:31,920
sensationalism of our enemies
have turned it into that's just

1753
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:35,360
a that's just a caricature
that's based on on lies, right?

1754
01:38:35,440 --> 01:38:37,240
What is it really?
What is it really?

1755
01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:39,760
And well, in fact, that's why it
bears repeating again.

1756
01:38:39,760 --> 01:38:44,160
What is it really?
It is that I pray, and I never

1757
01:38:44,160 --> 01:38:46,920
cease to pray, and I never cease
to number 2, and I heaven to

1758
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:48,240
avenge the blood of the
innocent.

1759
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:51,600
That God will avenge.
The blood and that God will.

1760
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:53,240
Yeah, that I.
That I pray that God will avenge

1761
01:38:53,240 --> 01:38:53,720
them.
Why?

1762
01:38:53,720 --> 01:38:55,800
Because I'm praying for God's
justice.

1763
01:38:56,000 --> 01:38:58,480
I'm praying not just for some
temporary peace.

1764
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:01,760
I'm praying for God's peace.
Yep, absolutely.

1765
01:39:02,640 --> 01:39:05,400
Ben, as always, dude, that was
good stuff.

1766
01:39:05,400 --> 01:39:07,920
Anything else you want to add?
Well.

1767
01:39:09,160 --> 01:39:11,440
You know, I think that there's
one more thing I would like to

1768
01:39:11,440 --> 01:39:13,800
add, I think.
About.

1769
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:16,640
All that is lost and how
valuable and important this has

1770
01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:18,880
been to me.
I think I'd like to end this by

1771
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:24,440
saying I only know of two, maybe
3 temples in the world where you

1772
01:39:24,440 --> 01:39:28,680
can still come today and receive
the fullness of the covenants

1773
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:31,640
and make the all of these
covenants according to the same

1774
01:39:31,640 --> 01:39:33,960
pattern that people have been
doing since the time of Adam and

1775
01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:37,280
Eve.
That, that, that certainly the

1776
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:39,600
archaeologists and, and the
textual critics can say

1777
01:39:39,800 --> 01:39:43,840
certainly existed in the ancient
temples of Solomon and Zurbable

1778
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:46,840
and at the time of Jesus and
amongst their early Christians,

1779
01:39:46,840 --> 01:39:48,240
right.
If you want to come and you want

1780
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:51,480
to take the oath of vengeance,
if you're ready to pray for

1781
01:39:51,480 --> 01:39:54,720
God's peace on the earth, then I
would say come to the temple.

1782
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:57,800
And I want that open invitation.
Come to the temple.

1783
01:39:57,800 --> 01:40:01,560
And there's only a few temples
in the world where this is still

1784
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:04,080
available.
But I wanted I want to leave the

1785
01:40:04,080 --> 01:40:07,440
listeners with the knowledge.
There still are temples.

1786
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:09,440
There are.
Enter.

1787
01:40:09,720 --> 01:40:14,040
And you can receive the fullness
of the Lord's covenants.

1788
01:40:14,480 --> 01:40:16,880
And I believe the Lord will
bless you if you will do so.

1789
01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:19,360
And so, yeah, and that's my
invitation.

1790
01:40:19,400 --> 01:40:22,760
Come, come and receive the
endowment as it was meant to be

1791
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:27,040
so that you can see what it
means in its full context.

1792
01:40:27,040 --> 01:40:30,680
It's full glory.
Be a temple going person and

1793
01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:34,720
don't put up with the.
With a temple that.

1794
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:38,360
Claims that it can save you when
it doesn't give you the fullness

1795
01:40:38,360 --> 01:40:39,880
of the ordinances.
These ordinances, these

1796
01:40:39,880 --> 01:40:43,040
covenants bring blessings of
heaven, and without the fullness

1797
01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:45,880
of those covenants, you cannot
receive the endowment, the true

1798
01:40:45,880 --> 01:40:49,600
endowment which is the gift of
God, which you receive in.

1799
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:53,800
Exchange.
For these covenants and so find

1800
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:56,640
them, there's only maybe three
places where I know that that's

1801
01:40:56,640 --> 01:40:59,120
possible and yeah, probably.
Then there's Christchurch, the

1802
01:40:59,120 --> 01:41:01,760
branch which I invite you to
come and learn about.

1803
01:41:01,760 --> 01:41:03,200
Then there's also the new Temple
of Missouri.

1804
01:41:03,200 --> 01:41:05,760
I understand is is doing the
ordinances correct.

1805
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:09,080
Yep, we.
Are Yep, you know, Ben and there

1806
01:41:09,120 --> 01:41:11,040
and there may be.
Others who've still received it,

1807
01:41:11,080 --> 01:41:12,760
who are still teaching it.
I know.

1808
01:41:12,960 --> 01:41:16,000
But even amongst Mormon
fundamentalists, it is rare for

1809
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:18,800
anyone to be able to teach you
these things that we've talked

1810
01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:21,040
about today about the other
vengeance, because many of them

1811
01:41:21,040 --> 01:41:24,120
have lost it themselves.
You know Ben, you.

1812
01:41:24,120 --> 01:41:29,120
And I are, are are are unique in
the sense that we have been

1813
01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:31,440
through the LDS temple at
length, right.

1814
01:41:31,440 --> 01:41:34,280
You were a temple worker.
Yes, that's right I suppose.

1815
01:41:34,280 --> 01:41:36,680
That's worth reiterating, right?
I was a temple worker.

1816
01:41:37,000 --> 01:41:40,920
I was there to see the changes
to the initiatories, as was I.

1817
01:41:41,080 --> 01:41:43,320
Right.
We, we've seen how this is all,

1818
01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:47,400
all come about, right?
And sometimes I take for granted

1819
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:50,560
that I've seen both sides of
this, so to speak, right?

1820
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:53,480
But.
So many people have not and they

1821
01:41:53,480 --> 01:41:54,680
don't even know there's anything
else.

1822
01:41:54,880 --> 01:41:58,320
They'll go into the temple today
where all the, all the penalties

1823
01:41:58,320 --> 01:42:00,920
have been removed, all the
covenants have been changed, all

1824
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:03,840
of the instruction has been
altered, even to the point now

1825
01:42:03,840 --> 01:42:06,120
where they're like giving
explanations that contradict the

1826
01:42:06,120 --> 01:42:09,440
explanations in the, in the
earlier versions.

1827
01:42:09,840 --> 01:42:14,240
It, it, it's, it's just
absolutely a cacophony of chaos

1828
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:15,600
now.
But they'll go in there and

1829
01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:16,960
they'll think that's all there
ever was.

1830
01:42:16,960 --> 01:42:19,120
That's all it ever was.
It's always been like this,

1831
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:20,320
right?
Because they don't know.

1832
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:23,880
Yep.
Yep, you know, I, I, I couldn't

1833
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:25,640
help but think about this the
other night.

1834
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:27,480
Well, the.
Last temple.

1835
01:42:27,480 --> 01:42:33,160
Session we did.
I can't imagine now that I've

1836
01:42:33,160 --> 01:42:36,440
experienced the endowment in its
fullness.

1837
01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:39,680
Of ever going back.
Right.

1838
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:42,080
Like right?
Because, because it's almost

1839
01:42:42,080 --> 01:42:44,480
nonsense.
I remember, I remember looking

1840
01:42:44,480 --> 01:42:49,120
at it and going, Oh my goodness.
When I was in the Ileus Church

1841
01:42:49,120 --> 01:42:53,040
and I was a temple worker, some
of my biggest questions ended up

1842
01:42:53,040 --> 01:42:55,600
being about things that I
wouldn't have questioned if I'd

1843
01:42:55,600 --> 01:42:58,160
known the context.
But I questioned because I had

1844
01:42:58,160 --> 01:43:00,600
no idea what they were talking
about, right?

1845
01:43:01,400 --> 01:43:03,640
Yep.
And then I realized.

1846
01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:05,840
Oh my goodness.
No, there is.

1847
01:43:06,600 --> 01:43:11,560
There is truth to be found just
in knowing, having the context

1848
01:43:11,560 --> 01:43:12,720
or at least being able to talk
about.

1849
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:16,480
That's another thing too in
Christ Church also called the

1850
01:43:16,480 --> 01:43:18,960
branch right?
We when we have temples, we can

1851
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:21,440
talk about these things.
I know and I'm.

1852
01:43:21,440 --> 01:43:23,440
Hoping that.
Your temple there in Missouri,

1853
01:43:23,440 --> 01:43:24,760
right?
Exactly the same.

1854
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:29,040
About it, It's supposed to be a.
House of Learning and, and in

1855
01:43:29,040 --> 01:43:32,600
the LDS church, you kind of get,
you know, you feel like cattle.

1856
01:43:32,600 --> 01:43:34,960
You kind of get, kind of get
herded into a room.

1857
01:43:35,480 --> 01:43:37,680
They do a couple of things and
then they tell you never talk

1858
01:43:37,680 --> 01:43:38,480
about this ever again.
Yep.

1859
01:43:39,160 --> 01:43:42,200
Yep, and if you can't?
Talk about it frankly, like we

1860
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:46,240
have today.
How do you begin to understand?

1861
01:43:46,240 --> 01:43:47,680
Because there's got to be.
Because there's plenty of

1862
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:52,520
people, even in my church that
have taken the vengeance who

1863
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:55,160
might learn, who might learn
several new things by listening

1864
01:43:55,160 --> 01:43:58,360
to this episode.
Right, right.

1865
01:43:58,680 --> 01:44:03,560
Or or so there's.
A lot to learn, yeah.

1866
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:07,520
Or even just from a preparation
standpoint, right?

1867
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:12,840
You just usher people through
and without any real preparation

1868
01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:15,880
and it blows their hair back and
they never want to go again,

1869
01:44:16,120 --> 01:44:18,240
right?
And I know that out here in

1870
01:44:18,240 --> 01:44:23,320
Missouri, that is something that
we have really taken steps to

1871
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:26,200
make sure that we avoid.
You can't talk about this.

1872
01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:28,960
You should talk about this and
struggling with that since.

1873
01:44:29,160 --> 01:44:31,400
With the news, Yeah.
Prepare people.

1874
01:44:31,760 --> 01:44:34,280
Yep, Absolutely.
Prepare them and then and then

1875
01:44:34,280 --> 01:44:35,720
let's and if people are
prepared.

1876
01:44:35,720 --> 01:44:38,560
Then they will see the.
Yep, and.

1877
01:44:38,560 --> 01:44:43,080
And look, really, Ben, as far as
I can tell, there's only a few

1878
01:44:43,080 --> 01:44:45,160
things that we shouldn't be
talking about outside the

1879
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:49,960
temple, about the temple, right?
There's there's a plethora of

1880
01:44:49,960 --> 01:44:53,640
things that we can talk about
and we should talk about because

1881
01:44:54,040 --> 01:44:56,160
if you think and I think.
That here's the other thing

1882
01:44:56,160 --> 01:44:58,840
about secrets.
I'm sorry we had we.

1883
01:44:58,840 --> 01:45:01,720
Had an unstable connection.
Sound like this is the and I

1884
01:45:01,720 --> 01:45:04,360
thought it was my turn.
This is the other thing about

1885
01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:06,920
secrets that I want to point
out.

1886
01:45:07,080 --> 01:45:09,240
Secrets aren't just about not
talking about it outside the

1887
01:45:09,240 --> 01:45:11,000
temple.
It's about the fact that if you

1888
01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:13,600
want to know the mysteries of
God, you learn them through the

1889
01:45:13,600 --> 01:45:15,680
Holy Ghost.
And so it's not about so much

1890
01:45:15,680 --> 01:45:19,560
about the me not being able to
talk about things or try to help

1891
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:22,960
help you learn, it's that the
true learning of the temple will

1892
01:45:22,960 --> 01:45:26,640
only come to your soul when
moved upon by the Holy Spirit.

1893
01:45:26,840 --> 01:45:28,640
I can talk about it all day
long.

1894
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:31,640
We can go into the temple and do
the ceremonies all day long and

1895
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:35,640
you still will not know the
secrets of the temple unless you

1896
01:45:35,640 --> 01:45:39,480
learn those secrets through the
Holy Spirit of God to your soul.

1897
01:45:39,480 --> 01:45:42,600
There's a, this is called
gnosis, knowledge through

1898
01:45:42,600 --> 01:45:45,440
experience.
If you do not gain gnosis of

1899
01:45:45,440 --> 01:45:48,080
God, the knowledge that comes
only through the Holy Ghost,

1900
01:45:48,280 --> 01:45:51,080
through your own experience, you
won't know the secrets anyway,

1901
01:45:51,080 --> 01:45:53,560
even if you've been to the
temple 1000 times.

1902
01:45:54,640 --> 01:45:57,200
Well, yeah, and.
And that's dangerous.

1903
01:45:57,200 --> 01:46:01,080
And let me explain why you're
going to take a covenant that

1904
01:46:01,080 --> 01:46:06,720
you do not understand, right?
It's like signing a contract on

1905
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:09,600
a big loan and you don't know
the terms.

1906
01:46:10,320 --> 01:46:11,520
Right, right.
So.

1907
01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:13,400
Let's learn the terms of
salvation.

1908
01:46:13,400 --> 01:46:15,600
Let's learn what it really
means.

1909
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:19,800
And the temple is the symbolic
way for you to learn to

1910
01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:21,960
experience that for yourself.
Absolutely.

1911
01:46:22,320 --> 01:46:25,960
Absolutely, Ben, as always,
dude, good stuff.

1912
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:30,400
We'll have to do one on the, on
the on masonry and the and.

1913
01:46:30,520 --> 01:46:31,480
Yep.
And so, yeah.

1914
01:46:31,480 --> 01:46:36,600
I invite everybody, Everybody
please come to the temples and

1915
01:46:36,640 --> 01:46:39,160
you'll learn something new
because and you won't just learn

1916
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:41,000
it from me and you won't just
learn it from this podcast.

1917
01:46:41,240 --> 01:46:43,520
You'll only learn it if you
learn from the Holy Ghost by

1918
01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:47,640
doing it, experiencing it and,
and in sincerity, offering that

1919
01:46:47,640 --> 01:46:49,680
sacrifice of a broken heart and
a contrite spirit.

1920
01:46:50,640 --> 01:46:53,000
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

1921
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:55,200
Then hang out for just 5
minutes.

1922
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:58,280
All right, all right.
Bye everybody.

1923
01:47:29,200 --> 01:47:31,960
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.