Episode #175: The Temple Covenants Series PT.5-The Law Of Chastity W/Taylor Smith

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The you're listening to the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Is this still snowing up there,
Taylor?

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No, it's cold.
It's been freezing, but not tons

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of snow.
Dude, it was cold here.

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It was nasty cold for a couple
of days and now it's like back

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into the 40s and it's supposed
to be like 59 on Saturday, so.

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59 I think it's supposed to like
get into the high 30s here in a

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few days, so.
You know, that's called summer

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in North Dakota, but awesome.
Well, dude, thanks for taking

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this one on.
Because like, I'll be honest,

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when I was sitting down praying
about who should I should have

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do this particular covenant, the
law of chastity, I was really

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kind of worried before, you
know, I got I got your name to

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come up because I'm like this.
I've seen a couple of like

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gospel doctrine classes where
this has felt like when your old

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man gave you the uncomfortable
talk, right?

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And so dude, I, I appreciate you
doing it because I know you're

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going to bring something to the
table that that is pretty

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enriching and, and I have
nothing but, but hopes from here

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on.
Well, I hope I don't disappoint.

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I I'll definitely do my best and
you'll do.

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Great.
There's, there's some things

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that I think will be interesting
for people to maybe that they've

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never considered before.
But ultimately I think that my,

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my bigger goal is not to be
informational, but more like,

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let's, let's see what we can
take away from this conversation

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that's, that's tangible that we
can put into practice in our

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lives and have it maybe be a
little more transformational.

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That's that's my hope and goal
and prayer for for this

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conversation.
Awesome.

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All right, dude, let's get into
it.

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Yeah, we might even offend some
people and talk about some

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controversial stuff.
So.

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That happens, that happens here
all the time.

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If people haven't figured out
that you're going to be

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challenged listening to this
podcast, whether you're a

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fundamentalist and active LDS
person or whatever, they they

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haven't listened long enough.
So.

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I saw a hilarious thing on a
whiteboard just in in a basement

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room in our church last Sunday,
whenever that was yesterday go

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been a long day, but it was it
just made me laugh.

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It says the truth will set you
free and then somebody else in a

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different color of the white.
You know, dry dry erase markers

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like but first it'll piss you
off.

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That's.
True, that's true.

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It'll piss you off and it's
going to make you miserable 1st

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and that's all there is to it.
So it's, that's just part of the

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game.
I think you, but that I think in

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some ways that's, that's the
beautiful thing.

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I think so often we struggle
with, with certain doctrines or

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certain ideas that have been
passed along to us.

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And in the moment, it feels like
you're under some distress,

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right?
But sometimes I think we forget

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that sometimes that's where the
growth happens, right?

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And I know, at least for me,
I've looked back on certain

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challenging items and been like,
oh, that's where the growth took

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place, right?
And that's when I was really

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studying hard because I needed
to understand.

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So I, I think the law of
chastity is like that, like that

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with a lot of other things.
Yeah, awesome.

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So, so, so the law of chastity,
I mean, the simple definition is

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faithfulness to marriage vows,
right?

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About as cut and dry, simple as
as it can be.

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I think it's interesting.
Like where does the word come

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from in English?
So it comes from Latin, which it

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was castus, and then it kind of
evolved into castitas.

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And then Old French was chastet
and then into English, it became

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chaste or, or chastity.
And so this is kind of, and the

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reason I think that that's
interesting to, to start with is

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it's such a big deal for us,
especially in Mormon culture.

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Like it's a big deal.
And I, and I don't mean to

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diminish how important and, and,
and you know, the, the moral,

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you know, fidelity to our
marriage vows and sexual purity

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and those types of things.
It, it is really important.

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It's a big deal.
But the word chastity as we use

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it didn't exist in the ancient
days.

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It's, it's not really something
that there is a clear equivalent

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cause 'cause there's some,
there's some stuff that we would

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just be abhorred by that's
described kind of like just very

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casually in some, especially the
Old Testament, right?

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And I'm certainly not advocating
any of that, but I think that

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sometimes we, I just want to
kind of begin with providing

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the, you know, perspective that
we can't judge everything

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anciently and scripturally
through our modern lens because

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it leads to misunderstandings
and misinterpretations.

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And so we may we may challenge
maybe some of our, you know, I

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guess a word to describe it
might be puritanical tendencies

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in in, you know, American slash
Christian slash Mormon cultures.

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And so, yeah, but So what is the
law of chastity faithfulness to

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our marriage covenants?
I mean, we could just stop there

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and and, you know, go to.
Bed.

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Good night, everybody.
Yeah.

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But no, so, so going a little
bit bit deeper, let's talk about

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vows versus covenants.
And you know, because, because

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marriage traditionally there's,
there's different levels or, or

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you could say even degrees of
marriage.

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And, and so there's, and I and
they're not equal.

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Like, you know, for instance, a
good way to kind of illustrate

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this principle is technically
Bill and Hillary are, are

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married.
Technically that is, that is

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true, right?
But that's not what we're

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interested in.
And so, but let's, let's have a

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conversation about what marriage
is and isn't.

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And let's talk about maybe some
different degrees and, and, or,

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or levels of marriage.
And I think that it's important

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to acknowledge that marriage is
marriage.

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Like, even if it's a crappy
marriage, it's still a marriage.

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Even if it's a terrible
marriage, an abusive marriage,

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it's a marriage until certain
lines get crossed and then it's,

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you know, and then but, but then
it's dissolved.

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But it was a marriage while it
lasted type of a thing, right.

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And then, but there's a
difference between just marriage

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and like godly marriage or
celestial marriage or, you know,

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what we are trying to do, which
is celestial eternal marriage,

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you know, covenants and bonds
that are going to last beyond

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this life.
So, so I think it's important to

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note that culturally, you know,
and, and biblically, like,

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especially in the Old Testament,
marriage is kind of less than

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what we would maybe expect.
And what I mean by that is God

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talks about marriage as there,
you know, he, he performs the

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first marriage in the garden and
commands them to be 1 flesh.

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And, and, and, and essentially
there's not like a priest

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involved.
There's not like a marriage

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certificate or license.
Those things are just kind of

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silly to even say, right?
But but So what is marriage?

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It's I mean, ideally something
that God ordains or you know,

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it's according like, so I guess
that's maybe another thing we

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can talk about later on in the
conversation, which is, you

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know, the difference between a
good marriage versus a revealed

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marriage.
You.

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Know right?
God has has really done had a

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hand in OK, so so there's that.
There's the, the word adultery.

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We kind of, you can't really
have a conversation about

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marriage and chastity without
also covering terms like

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adultery, right?
And you know, the word adultery

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is fascinating because it has
the word adult, like adults and,

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or, and, and it kind of has the
same.

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The word is etymology.
It's like, where does this word

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come from?
How do we how do we get this

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English word adultery?
And it comes from the Latin word

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adulterate and adulterate.
When you adulterate something,

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you are contaminating it.
OK.

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OK.
So this contamination, yeah.

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So this contamination concept is
it's bringing something into a

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unit which is foreign or which,
you know, like you can

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adulterate various things.
You know, if if you get too much

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water in the gas, it's it's not
going to burn.

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It's it's been adulterated.
If you put, you know, impurities

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into other chemicals, then then
they are, it can change the

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actual chemical structures and,
and and it causes problems that

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way.
So so adultery being that

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concept where things are where
in where impurities are

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introduced into something.
And I I think we need to go back

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to you know this the scriptural
terms where it talks about

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marriage.
It you know, God commands a man

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to leave his father and mother
and cleave unto his wife and

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they twain shall be made one
flesh.

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This is right in Genesis, right?
And, and so especially with the

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perspective that we are blessed
with from the restoration.

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When you are married, you are no
longer an individual 2

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individuals.
You become you become one.

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Now we still have our own bodies
and we're, you know, she's still

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a woman.
I'm still a man.

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It's not like it's not like you
don't want to get too caught up

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in the but, but as far as in
God's perspective, marriage is

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the bringing together of a woman
and man and becoming something

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new.
A it's like, you know, when you

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have a chemical reaction in the
beer or in chemistry, like you

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used to have two separate
ingredients.

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Now you got one ingredient, but
it's different than than either

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of the two things was
beforehand.

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Right.
So anyway, hopefully, no, I, I

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think, I, I think that's good
because you can't, we can't have

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this conversation without
setting the terms right.

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And, and this is this part,
this, this unity within

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marriage, I think is a huge part
of, of, of this, the covenant

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that we take at the temple,
right?

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Because I think if we truly
understand the covenant, it'll

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point to exactly what you just
pointed to is that God no longer

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looks as you as just a dude or
just a woman, right?

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You have now come together and
out of that there is a new and

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again, I don't want anyone to
get new Agey with this either,

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right?
I want, I want to be very

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careful in that right?
That's.

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The balance.
The the, the the.

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Yeah, so right.
So like, if your local guru

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teaches you this, just, you
know, maybe raise an eyebrow.

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But what what I would say is
that that, you know, without the

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new agey kind of thing, it is
kind of like a a new person

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almost right or a new unit,
right.

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Yeah, that's a good word.
It, it, it's a new way of being

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recognized, right?
You are no longer the

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individual.
You are now coupled with your

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eternal companion from here on
out.

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And God's going to look at that
and if that's if that's how he's

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going to view things, well now
also there's some new things

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that are probably required of
that that weren't required as a

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single man or woman, correct?
So.

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Yeah, so, so, yeah.
So when marriage, when you know,

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biblical scriptural marriage,
you know, and we're not talking

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about revealed marriage, we're
not talking about godly

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marriage, not talking about
celestial marriage necessarily,

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but we're just talking about
marriage, which is still

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marriage does not require a
marriage license from you don't

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you don't need permission from
the government, from the judge,

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from the courthouse or none of
that.

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Like that's just kind of a silly
modern thing that was invented,

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I believe in like the 1860s to
regulate interracial marriage.

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Anyway, we won't get into all
that history, but so like that,

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that is not that is an invention
of men.

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That definition is somewhat
arbitrary.

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And the reason that the LDS, I
think this is maybe important

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for, for this audience to
understand the reason our LDS

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tradition became basically
conflated with that perspective

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was because post 1890, the
government needed to regulate

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marriage.
You know, and the, and the, when

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the church signed the manifesto,
they were essentially abdicating

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that ability to self govern.
And as far as the the terms of

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marriage go and what that union
is and isn't to the government

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and let the government regulate
it.

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So when that happens, you now
suddenly you need a marriage

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license because you know your
marriage has to be sanctioned by

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the state and that that's how
you get rid of plural marriage

224
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,960
overnight is because this, of
course, the state had banned

225
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,840
plural marriage in the Civil
Code.

226
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,040
Yep, absolutely.
And and you know, I think it's

227
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,960
fascinating too.
This is just another case study

228
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,920
and it's something I've been
flirting with for a while, this

229
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,600
idea that Mormonism really was
meant to be a counterculture,

230
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,200
right?
And, and sometimes I feel like

231
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,080
the the good red indicator light
on, if you're off track on this

232
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,640
is, is this counterculture
looking too much like the

233
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,840
culture at large?
And, and I think this is one of

234
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,320
those ways where we can see that
happen is through through

235
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,480
marriage, right?
You get the sense that Joseph

236
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,840
was on to building new
societies, not just buildings or

237
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,560
printing books, right?
This was about a different way

238
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,200
of living.
And we should expect to see some

239
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,320
differences in how we would view
that marriage versus the world

240
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,120
at large.
Yeah, absolutely.

241
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,000
And so, so basically going back
to what marriage is and isn't,

242
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,080
you know, sometimes people think
that, OK, well, you know,

243
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,920
certainly among certain
fundamentalists, like there's a,

244
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,760
a clear understanding that you
don't need a license for a

245
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,640
marriage to be valid in God's
sight, But but they still think

246
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,040
that there needs to be a
ceremony or it doesn't count.

247
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,440
And, and especially this bothers
me when I see, you know, people

248
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,640
who are sincere people trying to
live the gospel and they get

249
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,320
accused of adultery because they
didn't get permission from their

250
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:23,680
certain key.
Right.

251
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,960
If you will to to to enter the
principal and then it becomes a

252
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,320
finger pointing of, well, hey,
you didn't get permission,

253
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,040
therefore your marriage isn't
doesn't count, Therefore you're

254
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,760
adult, you're living adultery,
not polygamy.

255
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,240
And so I think we need to be
very careful, like, you know,

256
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,160
marriage.
No, there's not a chapter in

257
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,000
verse that says that you have to
have a priest or an ecclesiastic

258
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,760
for marriage because I mean, you
think about all of the people,

259
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,440
the thousands and millions and
10s of billions of people that

260
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:02,840
live during periods of apostasy.
And they were at getting married

261
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,880
and producing children and
marriage is ordained of God.

262
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,960
And if they hadn't, the
restoration couldn't have

263
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,480
happened because the race would
have died off, you know, like

264
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,560
this.
So God ordains marriage and all

265
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,079
marriage is ordained of God.
Now there are different degrees,

266
00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:21,800
and of course some are far more
have potential to become eternal

267
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,560
unions, but that doesn't undo.
It's not like everybody in the

268
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,840
Middle Ages during the Great
Apostasy was adulterers.

269
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,240
Right.
That's the point I'm trying to

270
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:32,320
illustrate with that.
Yep.

271
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:41,600
So marriage being that union of
making two into a new unit like

272
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,840
a I'll chemical, I'll say
alchemy because it's not

273
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,560
chemistry, but and it's kind of
mystical a little bit, but but

274
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,400
it is a producing something new
from 2 distinct former

275
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:59,760
ingredients, I guess, right
frame that so that that's

276
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,960
marriage and it does not require
a license.

277
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,480
It does not require a priest or
an ecclesiastical.

278
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,960
It doesn't require a ceremony.
What does it actually require?

279
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,120
Let's look at even just some of
the like Native Americans,

280
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:13,160
right?
They were living marriage and

281
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,480
even plural marriage in many
cases, like cuz they like to

282
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,120
take care of their women and
children that needed help and,

283
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:25,040
and right.
And so they, they didn't really

284
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,560
have, I mean, sometimes they
would have a, a cultural

285
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,040
celebration to kind of announce
to the community and, and you

286
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,440
know, maybe strengthen one
another's resolve to be faithful

287
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,160
to their, their new partner in,
in this life.

288
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:39,800
And I think there's nothing
wrong with that.

289
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,520
But other times, you know, a man
and woman just run off into the

290
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:49,320
woods and, you know, come back
and announce that they were

291
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,920
married and start a family and
they were now a couple like, and

292
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,240
you can't tell me that that's
adultery.

293
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,440
It may not be ideal.
It's may not be celestial.

294
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,280
It may not be, you know, be may
not last beyond this life, but

295
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,280
it's not adultery.
And that's, that's just what I

296
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,600
wanted to kind of address.
All right, so we've defined

297
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,080
marriage.
We've kind of qualified what it

298
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,920
is and isn't what what what God
defines it as, what it is or

299
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,800
isn't.
Now let's talk about, well,

300
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:24,280
adultery.
Adultery is it's one of the

301
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,120
worst like words in the English
language.

302
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,600
It really is, yeah.
It just, you don't want to talk

303
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:30,960
about, you don't even want to
say it.

304
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:36,840
And, and it's because it is the
ultimate betrayal of trust when

305
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:42,080
you were married and you are no
longer an individual.

306
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,320
You are now a married man.
You are now part of something

307
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,360
else.
You are 1/2 of a couple.

308
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,080
That is one of the most sacred
positions of trust that a human

309
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,160
being can experience in this
life.

310
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,600
And you know, adultery is the
ultimate betrayal of that trust,

311
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,440
so.
You know, the let's, let's get

312
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,080
into some kind of, I think
they're very interesting.

313
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,160
They're very controversial kind
of topics.

314
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,960
Are you familiar with the term
telegony?

315
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,400
No, OK.
So this was something that it

316
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,360
kind of was a big deal in like
the last half of the 1800s.

317
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:29,640
And then in the early 1900s,
scientists kind of dismissed it.

318
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,360
They're like, yeah, there's not
enough evidence.

319
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:33,960
It's kind of anecdotal and blah,
blah, blah.

320
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,240
So they kind of got just got
away from it.

321
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:42,840
And there was a recent study
that was published.

322
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,240
In fact, I I even pulled it up
just to let.

323
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,840
Me give you do you want to share
it or?

324
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,160
Oh sure, I can share.
I mean let me get get you the

325
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,120
permissions there all.
Right.

326
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,280
OK, you should be good.
All right, we'll just share.

327
00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,640
Can you see my screen?
All right.

328
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,480
Yep, got her.
All right, so this is the

329
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:10,200
National Library of Medicine
from from NIH and this is you

330
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,680
can see the title right here on
the screen revisiting telegony

331
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,600
offspring inherit and inquired
acquired characteristic of their

332
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:23,600
mother's previous mate.
And this was was published just

333
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:29,000
pretty recent, I want to say
2014, ten years ago, I guess 10,

334
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,360
just a little bit over 10 years
ago.

335
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:39,280
So basically the history of
telegony is that there was a

336
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:46,520
horse like animal native to, I
want to say it was Australia, if

337
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:51,080
I recall that that was kind of
like new, nobody had ever seen

338
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:52,520
this thing.
And it was kind of, it was like

339
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,920
a zebra.
There were stripes and markings

340
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,640
on it, but it was not a zebra
and it was, it was not a horse.

341
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,080
It was like this, this kind of
genetic anomaly.

342
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,720
The people from the, the old
world like the the rest of the

343
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,920
world, because Australia is kind
of unique.

344
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,560
Australia has marsupials,
everywhere else has mammals and,

345
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:12,880
and so Australia is pretty
unique genetically.

346
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,600
And, and so they, that's why I'm
pretty sure I'm recalling that

347
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,480
that was where it came from.
And, and so basically there was

348
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,640
this horse and they thought,
hey, we're going to see what

349
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,600
happens if we breed it with a
purebred Arabian mirror, which

350
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,240
is like, if you don't know,
that's like the, the, the, the

351
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:38,520
gold standard of horse flesh.
And so this Arabian mirror was

352
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:47,800
bred with this Australian.
I don't know if maybe it's an

353
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,520
stallion.
I don't know what you would call

354
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,120
it because it has a different
word and I don't remember what

355
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:54,240
it was.
Kind of a common quarter horse

356
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,080
almost for that, yeah.
Right, yeah.

357
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,080
And so it's just more of a
common horse.

358
00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:04,800
And the the the colt that the
mare gave birth to had the

359
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,880
markings and they considered it
a failure.

360
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,040
They were hoping that it would,
you know, like make it way

361
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,120
cooler.
And it was just like let down

362
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,520
and they're like, we can't waste
this Arabian purebred mirror on

363
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,120
any more offspring with this
thing.

364
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:20,160
So hey, case closed.
You know, that was that was a

365
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:26,040
failed attempt to to kind of try
to genetically come up with with

366
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,800
a new type of a horse breed that
that could have been cool.

367
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:34,800
And so and so basically they,
they abandoned it and they sent

368
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,360
the horse back to the the the
normal breeding and she was bred

369
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:44,960
with a purebred Arabian stallion
and she gives birth to this colt

370
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:52,960
and it has stripes the second
colt.

371
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,240
After she was.
With the the Australian with the

372
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:02,480
stripes has stripes and they
know for a fact that that it's

373
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,960
impossible that the father was
the Australian, like purebred

374
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,840
Arabians are very tightly
controlled assets.

375
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,560
They like it's a it's a big deal
to preserve that purity.

376
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,400
Absolutely.
And and so they were like, well,

377
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,800
that's weird, never doing that
again.

378
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:28,080
And and so unfortunately,
because this happened like 200

379
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,320
years ago, there was not a whole
lot of, you know, scientific

380
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,680
rigor to, you know, keep things.
And so by the, by the early

381
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,360
1900s, it was kind of dismissed
as well.

382
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:42,080
There's not enough evidence
where, you know, and nobody

383
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,480
wants to risk because, I mean,
purebred horses are worth, you

384
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,800
know, hundreds of billions, the
millions and yeah, in some

385
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,600
cases.
And and so like this

386
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,240
interestingly does not appear to
be a theme for all different

387
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,520
types of animals.
This is kind of unique to just

388
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,480
certain you know far more
higher, like you could call them

389
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,400
higher organisms like horses.
Gotcha.

390
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,520
What was real interesting is
they did a, they were doing a

391
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,240
study on humans and it was not
like they were doing experiments

392
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,120
and like having people breed or
none of that.

393
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,920
What I mean is that they were
doing a study of, of I believe

394
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,640
it's like 8000 women in this
study that were participating

395
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,600
that, that had volunteered,
consented to be part of it.

396
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:35,760
And they were basically just
looking at different health

397
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,640
parameters and, and different
things and they were studying

398
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,640
different genetics.
And you know, I think it was

399
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:50,640
basically trying to determine,
you know, what's the word, how

400
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,880
you're raised versus genetics.
Nature versus nurture.

401
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,680
APRE versus nurture.
Yeah, they were looking at some

402
00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,240
of that stuff and, and what was,
you know, wildly unexpected by

403
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,360
the, the research team that was
conducting this study was that

404
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:10,640
they was, they were finding that
some of these women had male DNA

405
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:17,000
in their brains.
And that was like shocker,

406
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,440
'cause these were women like,
why do they have Y chromosomes

407
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,480
floating around in their brains?
And so the, the first hypothesis

408
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,840
was, well, you know, they're,
they must be mothers and, and

409
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,080
maybe they had sons.
And so maybe some of that DNA

410
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,360
and then it just stayed in
their, in the mother's brain for

411
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:39,480
the rest of their life.
And so that explained a good, a

412
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,520
good percentage of them, but not
all.

413
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:47,280
Some of them either had not had
children or had only had

414
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:53,440
daughters and they were still
finding Y chromosomes in the,

415
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,800
in, in the, the females.
And they're like, well, that's

416
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:00,080
weird.
We're not going to study this

417
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,160
anymore and it would be immoral
to pursue this study any

418
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,280
further.
And they just kind of walked

419
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,080
away.
And, you know, I, I understand

420
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,720
that it's very politically
incorrect or it would be extreme

421
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,720
like, and it would be wrong to
like try to experiment and have

422
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,120
humans intentionally try to get
types of results right.

423
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:25,280
You know, so that I'm, I'm not
advocating that that was should

424
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,920
have happened.
But what what this does seem to

425
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:36,160
suggest is that there are
consequences that you know,

426
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,600
every time a woman engages in a
sexual interaction, there is a

427
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:47,880
consequence that is a permanent
alteration to that into that

428
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,280
woman.
Interesting.

429
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:55,680
And, and the reason that that is
controversial is because, well,

430
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,040
people, the sexual revolution,
people don't want to think that

431
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,440
there's consequences.
Right.

432
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,880
Right, you know, just, you know,
hookups or whatever.

433
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:10,600
And so, you know, I get it, but
it's kind of hard to deny at

434
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:17,160
this point that, that, that, you
know, when a woman gives herself

435
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,120
and when a man in in a marriage
relationship receives the the

436
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:25,000
wife to himself, you know,
obviously genetic material is

437
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,240
transferred between 1/2 of this
couple and the other half of the

438
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,600
couple.
One is the giver and one is the

439
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,880
receiver.
And when a woman receives

440
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,800
genetic material from her
husband, it changes her at the

441
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,800
DNA at the cellular level
forever.

442
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:49,040
Wow, so that whole oneness in
marriage could be a lot, not

443
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,800
just spiritual, but on some
level even physical.

444
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,720
Yes, yes.
And, and like I say, I, I'm not,

445
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,320
this is not definitively proven.
I, I can't, I am not qualified

446
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,680
to definitively claim this or
that.

447
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,440
But the evidence that we do
have, which is limited

448
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:14,080
admittedly, does appear to
support this idea that there is

449
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,120
a physical reality to the
spiritual union between a man

450
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,400
and woman when they are married.
Right, right.

451
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,320
You know, and, and I think this
might be a good place to say

452
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:32,040
look outside of marriage.
I understand things happen,

453
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,600
right?
I, I, I strive for the ideal,

454
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,640
right?
And, and that's what I'd want

455
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,720
for all people.
But we don't live in an, in an

456
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,880
ideal world and circumstance,
right?

457
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,720
And so I want to be careful to
say that you should, you know,

458
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,080
if a woman's engaged in that
before, she's not damaged goods.

459
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,040
Right, I want.
To.

460
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,120
I want to get that out of the
way.

461
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,080
I hope that's OK.
I interject that here, but.

462
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,000
I wanted to bring that up and
you beat me too, I think.

463
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,520
I just want to say they're not
damaged goods and and because of

464
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:12,640
the atonement.
All right, I'll go here.

465
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,600
I might edit this later.
So before I, I came into the

466
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,520
gospel, I was a heavy drug user,
right?

467
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:28,000
Even blew some veins out, if you
know what I'm talking about,

468
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:35,800
right.
And so like, I remember thinking

469
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,040
I was damaged, right?
Like probably can't have kids.

470
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,040
Who knows what I've done.
I mean, it was ugly.

471
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:52,040
It was, it was very ugly.
After I was baptized, though, a

472
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,080
lot of those visible
consequences that I've had went

473
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,640
away, right?
The atonement is a very real

474
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:06,600
thing and it is a very real
salve to, to not just our souls,

475
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,080
but I believe our bodies, right?
I do believe something changes

476
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,320
when you start making covenants,
not just spiritually, but

477
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,760
physically, right?
I'm not saying it happens all

478
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,280
the time, but I think I think
for someone who's maybe truly

479
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,240
repentant, those doors can be
opened.

480
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,520
And so, so if, if a man or a
woman has engaged in, in

481
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,400
premarital sex, they're not
damaged goods, right?

482
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:39,080
Through repentance, through the
atonement, wholeness and healing

483
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,440
can't happen.
And so I just want to get that

484
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,160
out of the way right there.
No, excellent.

485
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,920
I'm glad you, I'm glad you
brought that up because, you

486
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,640
know, similarly, the The thing
is with, with the gospel, like

487
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:59,800
if we, we have all this record
of Christ healing lepers and,

488
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:04,480
you know, healing all of these
physical maladies and, you know,

489
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,240
past mistakes, there are
consequences.

490
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,760
But like, you know, sometimes
things just happen and you don't

491
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,480
have any control, like if you're
born blind or whatever, right?

492
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,960
And if Christ can heal that,
like what's to stop God from

493
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,480
using that power to restore
something that maybe had been

494
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,920
lost through previous?
But yeah, of course, repentance

495
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:32,040
must be complete and sincere.
And I, I did want to, since I've

496
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,640
still got the screen share, I
think I just wanted to briefly

497
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,320
just show that I'm not just
pulling this out of thin air or

498
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,480
out of other places.
This is also on the National

499
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,920
Library of Medicine.
This was the the study on male

500
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,240
microchimerism in the human
female brain.

501
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,360
So this was published in 2012,
September.

502
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:58,440
Microchimerism is simply like
small levels of genetic

503
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,680
modification that has been
observed.

504
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,160
In our.
In the human female brain.

505
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:09,040
So that's so yeah, you can just
look it up.

506
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,080
And after, after we're done,
after we're done, can you just

507
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,800
e-mail me those two, those two
links and I'll just throw those

508
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,520
in the show notes.
Absolutely.

509
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,800
Yeah, we'll do.
All right.

510
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,160
Cool.
So how?

511
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,920
How was that for a controversial
like Should we move on to

512
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,200
something?
Dude, dude, I liked it that I'm

513
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,760
I'm here for it.
And look, this is one of those

514
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,280
where I'm going to probably at
the at the intro be like put

515
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,640
your kids to bed before you
listen to this one, folks.

516
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,680
This one isn't for your for your
younger kids, right?

517
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,960
This is for probably 14 to 15
and on up.

518
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,480
Yeah.
I'm trying to be as respectful

519
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,360
as possible, but certain things
are just.

520
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,320
There's no way around it there.
No, no, look, this is one of

521
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,520
those topics why everybody
shield away from it, right?

522
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,520
Why, why, why people don't like
giving this lesson in, in, in

523
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,920
gospel doctrine, right?
It it, you're talking about some

524
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,240
intimate type things and it's it
it can cause people to squirm a

525
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,520
little bit.
Right, all right, cool.

526
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:15,960
Well, so going back to let's go
back to Matthew, I believe it's

527
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,440
chapter 5.
In fact, I'm going to just pull

528
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,520
up my scriptures.
I I was going to have this up

529
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:25,199
and I forgot to prep it.
So, but so this is Christ

530
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:31,400
talking about the, you know,
you've heard of by them of old

531
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,880
times, but I tell you like he's
basically setting a higher law,

532
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,719
like right hill.
But, you know, even if you just

533
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,880
get angry, you know, that's
that's wrong.

534
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,840
And then looking on a woman to
lust After Earth committed

535
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,520
adultery and are already in his
heart.

536
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,000
Now, you know, there is a
difference.

537
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,639
I think it's important to say
there is a difference between

538
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,159
thinking a thing and doing a
thing.

539
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:03,600
But as Christians and as Mormons
especially, we should be seeking

540
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,480
to live a higher law, which
would be, you know, controlling

541
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,640
our thoughts because you don't
do things that are not that you

542
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,360
haven't thought about first,
generally.

543
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,720
And, and especially for Mormons,
right, I mean, look, there's

544
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:23,040
like, if you're an active
Mormon, there's certain apparel

545
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,440
that you will wear that you have
to get past to get down to that,

546
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,720
right?
And, and so if you know, you

547
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:33,520
have to really think about
something in order to to get to

548
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,520
that point in Mormonism
especially.

549
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,000
Yeah.
And so in this same passage

550
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,920
Christ also addresses the
concept of divorce and what he

551
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,880
says in Matthew chapter 5, verse
31, He says, it hath been said

552
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,720
of old, Whosoever shall put away
his wife, let him give her a

553
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:55,280
writing of divorcement.
But I Christ, say unto you, that

554
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,760
whosoever shall put away his
wife, saving for the cause of

555
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,840
fornication, causeth her to
commit adultery, and whosoever

556
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,840
shall marry her that is
divorced, committeth adultery.

557
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:15,680
Now what's weird is this is
clearly describing a married

558
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,040
woman.
Right.

559
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,400
Put away his wife like they're
married.

560
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:28,480
Wait, I thought that fornication
meant premarital sex, and

561
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,280
adultery was, you know, sex when
you're married to somebody

562
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,600
that's not your spouse.
But Christ right here is saying

563
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,640
that whosoever shall put away
his wife, or in other words, if

564
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:45,920
you divorce your wife, causeth
her to commit adultery, unless

565
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,760
she is committed fornication.
Interesting.

566
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:52,480
You ever noticed that before?
Do.

567
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,480
You know I have and I have
wondered what it meant.

568
00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:59,720
All right, so this is not, I'm
not speaking authoritatively or

569
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,480
definitively on this, but I have
thought a lot about it because,

570
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,640
yeah, this was a puzzler for me.
Like what is going on here?

571
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:13,400
And what I think is going on is
that we miss define the word

572
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,680
fornication in our kind of
English because it's, you know,

573
00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:20,840
it's all a translation.
None of us is very few of us, I

574
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,280
should say, are reading the
historic like the source,

575
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:30,520
Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic texts.
So we're all reliant on English

576
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,960
translations to the comprehend
in our native tongue.

577
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,680
And and so we, we as a result,
we bring our cultural baggage

578
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,320
and the English, the, the
inherent limitations of the

579
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,360
English language or the nuances
of the English language into our

580
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,560
readings with us.
And So what I think is going on

581
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:54,600
here is that you, you can commit
fornication if you're married,

582
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,520
because fornication is not
simply premarital sex.

583
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:03,200
What fornication actually is, is
infidelity.

584
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,240
But, but like when it talks like
if if you look in some of the

585
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:13,320
Old Testament references to
fornication, it's not talking

586
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,720
about infidelity to your husband
or wife.

587
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,040
It's talking about infidelity to
God.

588
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,120
And So what I think this is
actually talking about is if a

589
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:31,320
man is married to a wife and she
fornicates, meaning she rejects

590
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,080
God and, and just like abandons
her testimony.

591
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,280
And, and, and the reason I think
that in that that's the one

592
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,520
instance where Christ is, is
like literally justifying

593
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:46,320
divorce is because a woman, a
mother especially has so much

594
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:51,240
influence on children.
And if you as a husband cannot

595
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:56,520
trust your wife to teach the
values that you hold dear, then

596
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:02,640
now you are literally damning
your own children.

597
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,720
So that's what.
And again, I'm not saying this

598
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:10,640
authoritatively.
This is the best understanding

599
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,920
that I have come to yet, but I
think it's it's, it's worth

600
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,760
considering and it's something
that very few people that I

601
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,960
talked to have actually even
noticed in many cases, let alone

602
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,360
thought about or studied out and
and had an explanation for.

603
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:29,840
Well, and, and look, that would
make sense too, because let's

604
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:36,400
face it, if, if a woman or a man
is, is, is throwing off the

605
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,800
gospel, screwing around, it's
just a natural step in that

606
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,360
process, right?
It's it's.

607
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,200
Rare that one doesn't accompany
the other at some level.

608
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,520
Right.
And I want to be careful here

609
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,800
that I'm not throwing everybody
under the bus who's who's post

610
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,000
Mormon.
There are fine people who are

611
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:59,000
post Mormon who are perfectly
faithful to their spouse, right?

612
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,320
But I also know that there is a
segment that like immediately

613
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,360
jumps into swinging, right?
I mean.

614
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,840
And so those two things seem to
go hand in hand, right?

615
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,200
And I think, I think here what
the, what the savior is saying,

616
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:19,200
because I think we do have to
remember it was a, a, a male

617
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,640
dominated society that they were
living in.

618
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,440
So a man, when he divorces his
wife, it's not like he's just

619
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:33,320
kicking the kids out, right?
He's he's taking a wife's child

620
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,520
as well, right?
Yeah.

621
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,640
And so that is very serious,
man.

622
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,920
Yeah, that's very serious in an
ancient context for divorce.

623
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,800
Right.
And so that's very serious.

624
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,800
So no, I like the
interpretation.

625
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,800
I think it holds holds some
water there for sure.

626
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,320
So, so yeah.
And I think that this is really

627
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,120
important because it also says
the very last clause of this

628
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,120
verse 32, Matthew 5.
Christ says whosoever shall

629
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:06,080
marry her that is divorced also
committeth adultery.

630
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:18,840
Why would he say that?
Could it be because if, if we

631
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,640
just look at the etymology that
the just a, a purely scholarly,

632
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,640
like linguistic analysis of the
word adultery, and if we have

633
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,400
the understanding that it comes
from the word adulterate, in

634
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,320
other words, introducing
impurities.

635
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:35,600
And when we when we have this
perspective that marriage is a

636
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,520
union between a man and a woman,
that permanently alters probably

637
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,800
the man too, but specifically
the woman, you know, in

638
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,880
particular, the woman is altered
forever with this micro

639
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,840
chimerism, this this genetic
alteration that we now have the

640
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,040
instruments and technology to
observe in the real in, in real

641
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,040
life, in our day, right?
Like.

642
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:05,280
Maybe that is what Christ is
referring to is just it's it's

643
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,840
actually a natural, a physical
reality, a biological thing, not

644
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,000
just a spiritual thing.
Absolutely.

645
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,520
And then not not to mention that
you might be messing with kind

646
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,280
of God's order for the family as
well, right.

647
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,280
Exactly.
And there's, there's some some

648
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,920
far reaching things here with
this that that I think are are

649
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,200
of an eternal consequence that
sometimes I think people don't

650
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,960
take into a consideration when
we start talking about this

651
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,680
particular covenant.
Yeah, so let's talk briefly

652
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,600
about so we've been talking
about like the more natural or

653
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,080
biological aspect.
I mean, we've had conversations

654
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,400
about other other degrees of
marriage as well.

655
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,040
But let's specifically talk
about Mormonism has a quite

656
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,400
unique perspective of of
marriage because we believe in a

657
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,080
pre mortal life where we had
interactions with God.

658
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,760
He was our father and we were
all brothers and sisters, like

659
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:07,000
living together in the big
mansion with the big man and mom

660
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,200
and mom and dad.
And we had these loving bonds

661
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,760
and all of this like, and we
believe that we were

662
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,800
foreordained and made covenants
and had relationships before we

663
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,680
were born into this life, right,
right.

664
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:30,240
So when we talk about the law of
chastity, having fate is being

665
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:33,560
faithful fidelity to our
marriage vows.

666
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,920
Mormonism UPS the ante a little
bit.

667
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,640
Yep.
Because it's not just the

668
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,840
marriage vows we make in this
life, right?

669
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:48,600
We believe in eternal marriage,
which goes forward and backward.

670
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,600
In other words, we had covenants
with made premortally with

671
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:58,520
certain individuals that we of
course can violate.

672
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,120
We can, of course, abuse our
agency and break those covenants

673
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,880
that we made premortally.
But hopefully as Mormons, we're

674
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,720
trying to not do that.
Right.

675
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,240
And so like we have, you know,
faithfulness to a marriage

676
00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:17,000
covenants is, is far deeper,
It's a far bigger equation in

677
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,160
Mormonism than it is in any
other belief system.

678
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,880
It's got eternal implications,
right?

679
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,200
And and this is what I think
sometimes is missed is this idea

680
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:34,000
that there's no other religion
that I know of where marriage

681
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:41,440
becomes, becomes the, the kind
of the standard, right, the bare

682
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,640
minimum to reach the, the degree
of exaltation we want to get to.

683
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:52,320
And and so because of that, as
you said, the, you know, you've

684
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,520
upped the upped the ante a
little bit, right?

685
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,400
And, and you're going to be on
the hook for what kind of

686
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,120
marriage you also had, right?
I think that's going to be there

687
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:03,920
as well.
Yep.

688
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:10,000
So, yeah, and, and I, I think
now I do want to kind of qualify

689
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,040
this a little bit because some
people like, there's actually a

690
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,600
bunch of new Agers that believe
in soulmates.

691
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,680
And I want to address the, the
so there's a difference between

692
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:25,040
a soulmate as kind of, you know,
new Agers would, would, would

693
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,480
understand that term and what we
as Mormons would, would say is a

694
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,040
pre mortal covenant marriage
type of marriage.

695
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:41,000
And the, the nuance there is
that in a, in a, in a soulmate

696
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:46,640
situation, let's say you marry
somebody and then ten years into

697
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:52,160
your marriage, you become
completely, utterly convinced

698
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:57,240
that a different person is the
person that you are supposed

699
00:45:57,240 --> 00:45:59,800
we're supposed to marry.
And you know they don't use

700
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,560
these terms, but they, you know
that they made premortal

701
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,400
covenants with.
Right.

702
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:12,000
Solution in new ageism is to
divorce that first spouse and

703
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,720
marry the second one.
Right.

704
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:18,560
And I think First Corinthians
Chapter 7 is quite clear that,

705
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:23,840
you know, obviously Paul is.
So the context, section 74 of

706
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:25,120
the Doctrine and Covenants
clarifies.

707
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,600
So First Corinthians Chapter 7
talks about certain things.

708
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,200
In fact, you know what?
I'm going to pull that up real

709
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,640
quick because we might as well.
And it's, it's just a good it's,

710
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,880
it's related directly to this
topic.

711
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,480
So we're here.
Yes, First Corinthians Chapter 7

712
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,000
starting in just verse one.
Now this is something that

713
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,240
Catholics and others have used
to try to promote celibacy

714
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,160
because Paul literally says now
concerning the things where if

715
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,240
you wrote unto me, it is good
for a man not to touch a woman.

716
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,640
At first glance, that kind of
looks like Paul is saying you

717
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,640
should be, you know, right, you
should be celibate.

718
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,640
Now in verse two, he says it's
OK to get married.

719
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,680
You know, if you're going to
avoid fornication, like if you

720
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,600
can't control yourself and you
and you don't can't, you don't

721
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,520
think you can handle celibacy.
You know, then you can have your

722
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,400
own wife and let everyone have
her own husband.

723
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:21,560
And so it but it, but it, it
sets this tone that like

724
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,920
celibacy is ideal and marriage
would be like second best.

725
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,320
It's better, it's better than
fornication, right, Right.

726
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,000
That's the common perception.
That's the common way that

727
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,120
almost everybody in Christianity
interprets these verses.

728
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:43,160
But section 74 talks about the
context like because these

729
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:48,080
epistles of Paul, he was
answering letters that the

730
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,160
people of Corinth had written to
him.

731
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,440
Right.
The people of the Corinthians

732
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,160
wrote a letter and they were
asking Paul a bunch of

733
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,520
questions.
This is him responding to their

734
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,560
questions and we don't have what
was sent to him.

735
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,200
We only have Paul's reply in the
Scriptures.

736
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,000
Right.
Section 74 talks about how the

737
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:11,040
context here is marriage between
believers and non believers.

738
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,880
In other words, marriage outside
of the covenant.

739
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,480
OK, All right, so in there he'd
be saying something to the

740
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:25,480
equivalent of and correct me if
I'm wrong here.

741
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:31,880
If if you can't find somebody in
the covenant to avoid just

742
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,160
screwing around, it's better for
you to marry a woman outside the

743
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:36,120
covenant.
Is that?

744
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,560
Actually, no.
What he's saying, yeah, I mean,

745
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,320
maybe that is possible.
But what I think he's saying

746
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:47,480
here is that you, you know, it
may not be a sin to marry

747
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,240
outside of the covenant.
But as an apostle, Paul is

748
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:54,600
giving advice very emphatically.
But you really should be

749
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,560
marrying inside the covenant for
obvious reasons.

750
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:02,280
It's very difficult for a a
woman to support her husband if,

751
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,680
if he wants to give money to the
church or to the poor or to

752
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,000
build a temple.
And she's like, wait, I wanted a

753
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,760
boat.
Right.

754
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,960
You know what you have, it's
really a better idea to have to

755
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:20,120
marry somebody that shares your
same values and priorities than

756
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,840
to marry somebody for other
reasons.

757
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,760
And so he's strongly endorsing
marriage within the faith, you

758
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,960
know, marrying other fellow
believers.

759
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:36,480
But in this chapter he talks
about how if you find yourself

760
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,040
married to a non believer now
because some people were already

761
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,320
married and then they hear the
gospel and only one person in

762
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,400
the marriage converts becomes a
believer and the other person

763
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,400
does not.
And he's mostly he's talking

764
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,520
about Jews and versus
Christians, right, Because they

765
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,000
were all Jews to begin with.
But you know, as Christianity

766
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,760
was being preached, some of them
would would accept that and

767
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,320
become the the believers.
So when when the New Testament

768
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,840
talks about believers, think
Christians.

769
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,680
And when it says non believers
it could refer to like Greeks

770
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,520
and Gentiles but it's generally
referring to Jews who are.

771
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:16,320
Not.
And so, so he's, so he's

772
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,400
basically saying if you're
married to somebody that does

773
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,520
not share your values, do not
divorce them.

774
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,120
Right, OK.
Because.

775
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,720
Dealing with a lot of converts
coming in at this point.

776
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:29,760
Yes.
Oh, OK.

777
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,320
Yeah, this.
Is Paul the great missionary

778
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:31,920
right?
Right.

779
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,520
Yeah, he's.
Talking, talking about these

780
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:38,560
converts and he's saying that
you don't know if you're a if

781
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,800
you're an if you're a believing
spouse or, excuse me, if you're

782
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,680
a believing man and your spouse
is a non believing woman, you

783
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:52,160
don't know, but what you might
sanctify your wife and convert

784
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,720
her to become a brain.
And likewise, if you're a

785
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:59,160
believing woman and your
husband's a non believing man,

786
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,040
don't divorce him.
You are married.

787
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,840
Like it may not be godly.
It may not be say celestial

788
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,560
eternal marriage, but you are
married and we need to

789
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,440
acknowledge that and respect
those that fact.

790
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:16,240
And you know, because sometimes
I see people in Mormonism kind

791
00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:23,640
of maybe excuse a little bit of,
you know, partner swapping or

792
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,560
upgrading or whatever you want
to call it.

793
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,200
It's, it's basically divorce,
right?

794
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:36,200
And, and it's the justification
that's given is well, but it's

795
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,760
because they, my other spouse
wasn't faithful enough.

796
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,960
And I, I just want a faithful
like you can adjust, you can

797
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:47,920
justify it however you want, but
it's certainly against the

798
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,800
counsel of the Scriptures.
Right.

799
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,120
In First Corinthians Chapter 7.
You know, and that's going to be

800
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,680
interesting because I think as
as fundamentalism continues to

801
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,040
grow, I think we're going to be
wrestling with those same

802
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,280
questions.
Correct.

803
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,400
Right.
And as a man, it is not our

804
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:11,360
responsibility to just accept
truth and even if we have to

805
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,760
leave our family behind, no, it
is my responsibility as a man to

806
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:20,560
bring my wife along.
And if not ready, it's OK to

807
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,320
still study and to still believe
things, but you cannot move.

808
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,960
Yep.
We have a responsibility to make

809
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,320
sure that our that we bring our
wives along with us on this

810
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,160
journey.
You know, and that's something

811
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,600
that I have told a lot of guys,
right?

812
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,600
I, I've, you know, had my fair
share of guys going.

813
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,520
You know, Dave, I've read this,
I'm converted to it, but my wife

814
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,280
just won't come along.
And I'm like, then don't come,

815
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:49,320
right?
Because here's the thing.

816
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,040
And work on that and then come.
Yeah, exactly.

817
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,080
Not saying don't come.
I'm saying get your wife on on

818
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,320
the right page, on the right
track and then come.

819
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,360
Absolutely.
Because look, I'm, I'm just

820
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,720
going to tip my hand here to the
to anyone out there thinking

821
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:09,320
about this.
I am not in the business of

822
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:16,160
breaking up a family, right?
And I think, I think God's going

823
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:20,240
to honor the man who stays by
his spouse that he made

824
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:25,880
covenants to, even at the
expense of getting a jump on

825
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:30,400
something, right.
And so if, if you're having to

826
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,920
justify a divorce, and, and I
want to be careful here too,

827
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:36,920
right, 'cause everything's got
an exception.

828
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,080
But as a general rule, you don't
break up one family to go start

829
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:42,960
another.
I'm not a fan of that.

830
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:48,400
I'm not getting behind that.
And quite frankly, I, I just

831
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,920
can't be part of it, right?
I couldn't sleep at night.

832
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,720
And so, you know, if, if you're
a dude or a woman who's come to

833
00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:59,520
this stuff and you're having a
hard time with your spouse,

834
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:04,440
understand your first covenant
in this situation is to that

835
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,120
spouse, right?
You have to honor that and you

836
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:11,880
have to work through that,
however that looks in the end.

837
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,600
Exactly.
So.

838
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:22,840
So, so yeah, the, I think I want
to compare like the Scriptures

839
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:27,680
often compare kind of our
baptismal covenants, right, to a

840
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,320
marriage relationship.
Like Christ is the bridegroom

841
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,080
and the church is the bride.
And, and so, you know, we as the

842
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:39,480
church would be the, the female
and, and you know, Christ is

843
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,120
giving us the Holy Ghost and,
and like giving us light and

844
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:47,880
truth and, and get healing us.
Like Christ is definitely

845
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,720
performing that masculine role
in the relationship with us as,

846
00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:59,480
as the church And we to, we
should be fulfilling our duties

847
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,480
as a feminine.
Like we need to, it's not our

848
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,680
place to dictate to Christ what
he should or shouldn't do.

849
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,840
Like it's our place to, to, to
submit, to surrender.

850
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,000
Like, and, and we can have
confidence that Christ is not

851
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,200
going to give us bad direction.
Like he's not going to lead us

852
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:17,240
astray.
He's not going to leave us

853
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:20,120
comfortless.
And so we can just have that

854
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:27,720
understanding as well there.
So so yeah, Christ, that that

855
00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:31,320
relationship.
I want to talk about this is I

856
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,080
believe it's an Isaiah chapter,
but I'm more familiar with it in

857
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,040
second Nephi.
I think it's chapter 6.

858
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,760
Oh, no, it's not chapter 6.
Where is it?

859
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,800
Oh, shoot, I guess I wasn't.
I usually remember the verses

860
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:58,840
pretty good.
So it talks about a bill of

861
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,960
divorcement.
OK, I'm going to just.

862
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,240
I have to do this.
We can cut this out later,

863
00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:03,720
right?
Yeah.

864
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,040
Absolutely.
All right, do a time stamp on

865
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:14,400
this one because yeah.
I've got you.

866
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:19,640
Sweet.
Why don't go live?

867
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,040
It's quite frankly, I say too
much crap.

868
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:28,120
Oh, it's 7.
Oh, there it is.

869
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,240
It was right in front of me.
I just missed it.

870
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:34,360
I was all right.
OK, so in Second Ephi, Chapter

871
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:39,360
7, this is again speaking
Isaiah.

872
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,440
He's quoting Isaiah, and Isaiah
is speaking messianically, in

873
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,240
other words, as if he were
Christ.

874
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,840
Right.
And he's addressing Israel,

875
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,400
right?
And it says yay in verse Chapter

876
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,640
7, Verse 1.
Yay for thus saith the Lord.

877
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:59,080
Also compare Isaiah chapter 50.
Have I put thee away, or have I

878
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:03,560
cast the off forever?
For thus saith the Lord, Where

879
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,520
is the bill of your mother's
divorcement?

880
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,160
To whom have I put thee away, or
to which of my creditors have I

881
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,000
sold you?
Yeah, to whom have I sold you?

882
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:19,320
Behold, for your iniquities ye
have sold yourselves, and for

883
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,360
your transgressions is your
mother put away.

884
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,920
Wherefore when When I came,
there was no man.

885
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,920
When I called yay, there was
none to answer.

886
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:36,960
Now I, I am not going to share
any details, and I don't know if

887
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,400
I even have a perfect
recollection of some of the

888
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,080
details here.
But there was I, there's a

889
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,240
friend of mine who shared a
story with me many years ago

890
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:50,080
that left a very deep mark on,
on my, on me.

891
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,600
And it was quite formative for
me.

892
00:57:53,040 --> 00:58:02,280
And he had married a wife in the
temple and she sadly got in.

893
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,720
Well, she'd had like some injury
or a car accident, I don't

894
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:11,400
remember the details, but she,
she needed painkillers during

895
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:15,800
her recovery from surgery.
And she became, and so she was,

896
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,480
she became a drug addict and was
abusing them.

897
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:23,360
And, you know, and, and after
the doctors kind of realized

898
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,000
what was going on, they cut her
off.

899
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:32,280
And you know, she was pissed and
made things infinitely worse

900
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:36,120
because she started going to the
streets.

901
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,200
Right.
To get her supply, right.

902
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:44,000
And you know, she's a, she's a
mother, she's got a bunch of

903
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:49,440
little kids and her husband is
working his ass, working his

904
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:54,160
tail off to provide because this
was expensive, like the surgery

905
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:59,040
and it's expensive and you know,
and, and meanwhile she's

906
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,840
basically non functional as a
mom and the kids are kind of

907
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:06,880
suffering from some neglect.
And you know, dad's trying to do

908
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:12,400
everything in his power.
And it got to the point where he

909
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,200
had to tell her you have to
leave.

910
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:20,560
You can't come to our home
until, unless you're able to get

911
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:24,920
yourself cleaned up, in which
case you're always welcome back.

912
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,160
Well, so she left.
She was pissed.

913
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:34,680
Like she got real upset at him
and was bitter and went off and

914
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,520
was gone for like 2-3 years,
right?

915
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:45,560
And, you know, partying drug,
you know, swinging like very, a

916
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:50,600
lot of infidelity.
And the dad would come home from

917
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:55,440
a long day's work, let the
people that was helping keep

918
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:57,320
take care of the kids while he
was working.

919
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,440
They would leave and then he
would, you know, clean up all

920
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,000
the dishes, get his kids put to
bed, take care of stuff and then

921
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,960
prep everything for the next day
cuz, you know, going to school

922
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:14,520
and.
And he shared that this verse,

923
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,440
when I came, there was no man.
When I called, yeah, there was

924
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,400
none to answer.
He describes, he described that

925
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:27,720
experience of being alone and
having all of this

926
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,840
responsibility and no one to
help, no one to share it with.

927
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,880
And the woman, the wife that he
had covenanted and that she had

928
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,640
covenanted to be there for him
and B has helped me, had

929
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,840
abandoned them all.
And you know, that kind of got

930
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:45,480
to me because that's how the
that's what that's how the Lord

931
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:51,000
feels when we play the harlot
and, and let's not deceive

932
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,520
ourselves.
That's what we're that's what

933
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,480
we're effing doing when we
violate our baptismal covenants

934
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,680
and, and do that.
So, so let's take that a little

935
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,200
bit more serious because that's
something that we have more we

936
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,280
can relate to.
It's more that we can grasp it

937
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,520
and comprehend it.
Everybody knows.

938
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:12,000
It evokes a visceral response,
right?

939
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:14,880
Oh, and I'll tell you so the
rest of the story, because it

940
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,800
does have a happy ending.
It's an amazing ending.

941
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:23,000
And so because basically what
happened was three years later,

942
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:26,600
guess who shows up on the front
porch?

943
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:38,840
Oh boy.
But she is in tears and very

944
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:45,200
apologetic, very, very humble,
very repentant, and she

945
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:50,280
apologizes for what she did to
her husband and to their

946
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:59,480
children.
And she, by all appearances, was

947
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:08,120
completely sincere about it.
And so this man welcomed her

948
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:10,160
back in the home.
Wow.

949
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:12,600
It took time.
Yeah.

950
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,360
It took, it took her a few
months, like she had to go to

951
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:17,480
rehab.
I mean, she had been trying, but

952
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:19,280
so and he helped her and
supported her through that

953
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:22,160
process.
But at the end of the day,

954
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:24,680
they're back together.
Well, at least last.

955
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:27,720
I haven't talked with this
individual in, in many years,

956
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:35,480
but this, that story changed my
life because at the time I was

957
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,520
questioning like my own
worthiness.

958
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,720
I mean, we've all, we all make
stupid mistakes.

959
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:43,440
We all do terrible things as
we're going through this life.

960
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:51,160
And I, you know, I don't, I, I,
I humbly and openly acknowledge

961
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,400
my weakness and I'm, I am far
from perfect.

962
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:59,040
In fact, I, you know, it's, it's
embarrassing how stupid and, and

963
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:05,320
weak I am at times, but I, I
sincerely wanted to come back

964
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:09,840
and this, this was something
that I really wanted to do.

965
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,280
And when my friend shared the
story with me, I read the

966
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:16,960
scripture.
I, I was like, that's how God

967
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,280
feels.
You know, when, when, when a

968
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:23,920
girl that I thought was supposed
to be my wife and that I wanted

969
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:28,120
to be married to and, and she up
and and just abandons and, and,

970
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,920
you know, fortunately I had not
married her, thank goodness, but

971
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,280
but it was really hard for me to
go through that betrayal and to

972
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:38,960
to to kind of heal.
But but I made it.

973
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:43,440
And these verses, I just, I
can't tell you how much of an

974
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,880
impact they've had on me
personally, spiritually and just

975
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:53,400
my testimony and understanding
of of the, the magnanimous mercy

976
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:57,640
of the father and of the Son
right.

977
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:07,600
So, so yeah, that that is the,
the, the, the covenants that we

978
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,920
make.
And when we when we break them,

979
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:15,600
God does not divorce us.
Even in our worst moments, we

980
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:21,560
can always come back, right?
Like you, you brought up, you

981
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,840
know, and it's important to note
that damaged goods, that's not a

982
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:26,880
thing in the, in the
restoration.

983
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:29,640
Like you can come back if
repentance is real, the

984
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:34,160
atonement is real, but it
requires full and complete

985
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,600
repentance.
And, and there's, you know,

986
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:41,200
it's, it's not easy, but like
Christ said, my burden is easy.

987
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:45,240
My yoke is light.
It's a heck of a lot easier to

988
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:48,600
do with things Christ's way,
repent, acknowledge our fault,

989
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:52,640
and do better than it is to do
things any other way.

990
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:54,240
Yeah, yeah.
No.

991
01:04:54,640 --> 01:05:02,120
And I want to be careful here
how I word this.

992
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,720
OK.
There are circumstances, right?

993
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,080
I think abuse is one of those
as, as we talked about earlier,

994
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:12,960
you know, the fornication thing,
right?

995
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:15,440
I think that's a form of that,
right?

996
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:20,480
And, and I, I'm, I want to be
clear, staying in a marriage

997
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:24,840
where you're beat up, get get
out of there, right?

998
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:28,600
We're not saying stick around
with an abusive spouse, right?

999
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:33,200
And and so you, you got to get
out of those circumstances.

1000
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,320
So I want to make that crystal
clear.

1001
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,960
But let's also not mince words
that as I look around society,

1002
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:46,760
by and large, most divorces that
I find are divorces of

1003
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:51,240
convenience rather than ones
where you're running to safety,

1004
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,600
right?
And I tend to look at marriages

1005
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:57,960
like, look, if there's not
divorce happening, if there's

1006
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:03,200
not massive dysfunction that
can't be fixed, you got to stick

1007
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:06,200
that out, right?
Especially if you got kids, you

1008
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:08,680
got to stick that out and you
got to work through it.

1009
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,400
And I know it sucks, right?
I I've seen it, but I've also

1010
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:18,720
seen where people have stuck it
out and managed to fix things.

1011
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:24,120
And so there, there's not A1
size fits all here.

1012
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:27,200
These are going to be things
that are going to be as unique

1013
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,440
to each individual as the
individual themselves.

1014
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:34,280
But understand that these are
heavy, heavy things we're

1015
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:39,800
dealing with.
And as men, we, we have

1016
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,840
responsibilities, right?
We make those covenants.

1017
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:47,080
We we hold a woman's heart in
our hands and there are things

1018
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:49,520
that are required of us because
of that.

1019
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:55,040
And we will account, yes, every
tear, yes.

1020
01:06:56,120 --> 01:07:00,680
Sheds because of us, yes.
So understand that going into

1021
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:04,880
it, absolutely.
So, so while we're here, I do

1022
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:08,240
want to talk about during the
law of chastity conversation, I

1023
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:12,280
think it's important to note
it's, you know, especially in

1024
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:14,960
the context of the covenants
that we that we make in the

1025
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:17,240
temple as part of that
endowment.

1026
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:22,000
It's not just fidelity to our
spouse.

1027
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,400
Right.
Because like, like I, like I

1028
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,360
mentioned, you know, Christ, he
uses the same analogy.

1029
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:33,400
And even Jehovah, Jehovah in the
Old Testament, he talks about my

1030
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,520
he's, he's a polygamist.
He's talking about how Israel is

1031
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:41,920
one wife and Jews and Judah,
Judah is the other wife.

1032
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:46,240
And they've both gone whoring
after the idols and the gods of

1033
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:47,040
Babylon.
Right.

1034
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:54,080
And and so like it's not just
fidelity to our, you know,

1035
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:57,640
physical marriage relationship
with our husband, you know,

1036
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:01,040
between a husband and wife, it's
also fidelity to God and to

1037
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:05,160
every covenant that we make,
whether it's baptism, endowment,

1038
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:11,760
you know, a lot of chastity like
that has far more, it's far,

1039
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,320
it's more far reaching than I
think a lot of us realize or

1040
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:16,720
think about.
Yeah.

1041
01:08:17,279 --> 01:08:22,960
So, and, and again, in a, in a
mortal, in like an earthly

1042
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:26,640
marriage where what we're
dealing with in our lives

1043
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:34,040
generally takes 2 to tango.
Very, very rarely is one party

1044
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:37,399
like completely innocent,
faultless, and, you know, just a

1045
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:41,080
pure 100% victim.
And then the other is just this

1046
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:46,080
piece of crap, right, right.
Usually there's a little bit of

1047
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:51,560
mutual fault right in, in most
of our marriage conflicts and,

1048
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:57,080
and, and issues.
Well, so we don't have that in

1049
01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:59,000
our covenantal relationship with
God.

1050
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,040
Like it's just, it's, it just
doesn't apply, right?

1051
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:05,800
Because with with Christ, it's
never him that fails.

1052
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:09,080
It would, it's always us that
fails him, not the other way

1053
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:12,040
around.
And so we can have that

1054
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:17,439
confidence and trust and, and we
need to acknowledge and we need

1055
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:22,200
to use the, the, the, the
moments of clarity and humility

1056
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:26,120
because they do come on us
sometimes a lot later for some

1057
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:28,240
people than others.
But we need to take those

1058
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:34,279
moments of self honesty and,
and, and analysis and think,

1059
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:40,160
where am I falling short?
And so there's a there's a

1060
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:44,760
scripture in where was it first
Timothy?

1061
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,520
Oh, that was actually, I don't
know if we'll have time for that

1062
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,640
one tonight.
It's a good idea, but we'll I'll

1063
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:55,200
go to that maybe if we have time
later.

1064
01:09:55,480 --> 01:09:58,520
But while we're kind of talking,
this is to me the meat of the

1065
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,320
conversation.
And so if I may, I'm just going

1066
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:06,840
to share a few few points like
living the law of chastity is,

1067
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:11,920
is so much more than just like
abstaining from adultery, right?

1068
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:15,120
And or or and and fornication.
Absolutely.

1069
01:10:16,480 --> 01:10:21,120
Because, because marriage, like
you could compare marriage, it's

1070
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:27,280
like a seed, you know, it's
like, it's, it's like, it's like

1071
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:30,800
a seed that you plant in the
soil of a man and a woman's

1072
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,720
souls.
And it, it metaphorically, you

1073
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,920
know, it requires constant
water.

1074
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:41,160
Like you put a seed in the
ground, you don't water it, not

1075
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:44,280
much is going to happen, you
know, except for maybe you'll

1076
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:46,040
kill the seed.
You know, fertilizer.

1077
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:47,960
You got to prep the soil.
You got to make sure there's the

1078
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:49,800
nutrients.
You got to give it sunlight, you

1079
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:51,800
got to give it.
You got to plant it at the right

1080
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:55,600
time so that it doesn't sprout
early and then just get killed

1081
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,360
from the frost or or too late
and then it doesn't produce

1082
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:00,520
anything.
You got to give it shelter from

1083
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:02,680
the hail or the frost, depending
on your climate.

1084
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:08,400
And, and honestly, as a, as a
guy that loves gardening and

1085
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:10,880
I've, I have a little, little
bit of experience with it.

1086
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:16,560
You also need to nurture it like
you need to kind of love your

1087
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:21,360
plants and, and want to help
them and, and, you know, rejoice

1088
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:25,160
when they do good and, you know,
be sad when they struggle,

1089
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,600
right.
This is, to me, a a good

1090
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:34,320
metaphor for a marriage.
Those of us who are hoping for a

1091
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:38,200
marriage that's going to last
longer than just this life, like

1092
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:42,000
if we're seriously thinking that
we want an eternal and a

1093
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:48,080
celestial marriage, we must put
forth not just like an additive

1094
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:54,200
extra, but an exponentially
greater effort to build an

1095
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:58,680
eternal and celestial
relationship on this, you know,

1096
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:02,360
at least begin that path right
now in this life.

1097
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,920
You know, because you can't put
it off till you're older.

1098
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:08,280
You can't put it off till the
kids grow up and you have more

1099
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,920
time or you can retire like you
can't.

1100
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:12,960
That's not how it works.
No.

1101
01:12:14,440 --> 01:12:20,920
And you also you, you can't
think that just because I don't

1102
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:23,800
commit adultery, that I'm
faithful to my wife.

1103
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:28,640
Like marriage, the relationship,
it's, it's much more about

1104
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:32,320
trust.
Yep, which is why, you know,

1105
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:34,240
adultery.
We, as we said, we talked about

1106
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:36,760
already is, is the ultimate
betrayal of trust.

1107
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:42,760
But but even if you're not an
adulterer, like trust, let's

1108
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:44,000
let's talk about trust for a
minute.

1109
01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:50,120
Like a wife, trust is much more
than just trusting that your

1110
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:53,520
wife isn't going to cheat or
your or husband you know is is

1111
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:59,400
going to cheat.
Trust is all about like a from a

1112
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:04,360
a woman's perspective, a wife
has to feel safe to speak.

1113
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:08,840
Yep.
Even the things that her husband

1114
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:10,880
doesn't want to hear, like
because guaranteed there are

1115
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:13,520
things that men don't want to
hear from their wives.

1116
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:19,280
Right.
And the easy out is that and,

1117
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:23,480
and what many women are, you
know, kind of praised as being

1118
01:13:23,480 --> 01:13:25,800
good wives is they just keep
their mouths shut.

1119
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:33,520
Gosh, see and I struggle with.
That and they confuse that with

1120
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,000
being submissive.
Right.

1121
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:38,880
You know what I mean?
Cuz cuz I mean submission is an

1122
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:41,240
important thing is.
In our relationship.

1123
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:46,040
With God and our, you know, with
in everything like we need to

1124
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:49,040
submit, but it's not submitting
to a man.

1125
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:51,840
It's submitting to truth.
It's submitting to God like the

1126
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:56,000
covenants that we make in the
temple are qualified.

1127
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:59,040
Yep.
And like you were saying, don't

1128
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:03,680
stay in a in an abusive
situation, but like, that's not

1129
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:07,800
what Christ is requiring of us.
It's not what we are advocating,

1130
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:11,840
but we just need to be perhaps a
little more honest with

1131
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:16,400
ourselves when when trying.
If if you're trying to make an

1132
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:24,800
excuse to divorce a person, it's
probably not like it's kind of,

1133
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,240
it's pretty clear like abuse is,
is a situation where yeah,

1134
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:31,960
divorce is justified.
But even when it's justified,

1135
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:33,560
it's ugly.
Yep.

1136
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:37,880
There's consequences like, you
know, and and there's there's

1137
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,960
people that I love and that are
very closely, you know, kind of,

1138
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:46,640
you know, extended family
members where there was a

1139
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:54,240
situation where the husband, you
know, provided they they lived,

1140
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:56,760
they had a comfortable life and
nice things.

1141
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,160
They could travel, they went on
vacations, like outwardly, you

1142
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:01,480
know, and they were active in
the church.

1143
01:15:01,480 --> 01:15:05,320
So from from most metrics, it
looked like a great marriage,

1144
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:10,080
right, Very, very happy and, you
know, had a bunch of kids.

1145
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,840
The kids are all what pretty
well, mostly well behaved, like

1146
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:15,960
seems like a pretty good
situation, right.

1147
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:21,000
But come to and and me, this is
somebody that I.

1148
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:23,520
Had.
You know, pretty regular

1149
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,640
interactions with and I thought
everything was fine, you know,

1150
01:15:27,440 --> 01:15:33,840
and just as a as a, as a man, it
was just so sad to see this

1151
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:37,440
female that I you know, that's
that I'm close to that.

1152
01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:42,480
I grew up around a lot and come
to find out her husband was a

1153
01:15:42,480 --> 01:15:49,800
piece of shit and had been
really abusing her and her

1154
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:54,240
children for many years.
But he was very manipulative and

1155
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:58,680
it was it was a covert
narcissism is kind of one term

1156
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:01,800
that's been used to describe
this type of behavior where it's

1157
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:09,880
this guy just basically putting
on the face that makes everybody

1158
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:13,640
think he's in.
He's a great guy and but then

1159
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:16,440
very abusive and manipulative
behind closed doors.

1160
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:25,080
And when it when it came down to
it, there were, you know, that

1161
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,400
she she suffered in silence for
many years.

1162
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:33,400
And, you know, she it was not a
weak person, but she thought

1163
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:39,280
that she was keeping her
covenants by submitting by, you

1164
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:42,320
know, just biting her tongue
because, you know, he wasn't

1165
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:44,440
like hitting her.
You know, it's one thing

1166
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:47,640
somebody's, you know, putting
Marks and bruising and like

1167
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:50,720
that.
Even some women don't leave that

1168
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:53,240
that situation.
But you know, that's a much

1169
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:57,080
easier discern situation to
discern that, yeah, you should

1170
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:00,240
probably get up out of there.
But when they're, when the

1171
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:05,560
wounds are unseen, when the,
when the hurt is emotional and,

1172
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:08,960
and, and even psychological,
like there's some weird stuff

1173
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:11,120
going on in, in some of those
things, some of those

1174
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:13,280
situations.
And I just felt like I had

1175
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:17,520
failed her as a, as a, a man in
the family.

1176
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:22,800
And, you know, but once it came
to our attention that this was

1177
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:25,760
what was really going on, this
was the situation, it became

1178
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:30,680
much easier to help her, to give
her the help that she needed to,

1179
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:32,920
to support her and get out of
that situation.

1180
01:17:33,440 --> 01:17:40,440
And so and so like, yes, women
do need to submit, but men, we

1181
01:17:40,440 --> 01:17:44,600
need to be, we need to police
ourselves and we need to be

1182
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:49,120
watching out for the women in
our lives to help make sure that

1183
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:53,800
they're not in that situation.
And if we're not hitting our

1184
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:56,840
wife, that's great.
But that's like a really low

1185
01:17:56,840 --> 01:17:58,760
bar.
That's a low bar, right?

1186
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:02,080
You know, are you know, do you
make her cry?

1187
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:05,400
That's that's that's.
Probably a good a good little

1188
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:09,480
metric right there to kind of
gauge like.

1189
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:15,320
And even even more so.
What isn't she telling you?

1190
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:19,520
Is she crying in secret and
you're not even aware of it?

1191
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:22,680
Right, right.
You know and.

1192
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:30,160
And so and so I don't, I don't
want to get, you know, too, too

1193
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:32,600
personal, but it is kind of a
personal thing.

1194
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:37,840
But but so like my wife and I
had an awesome marriage.

1195
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:39,320
Like we've had an awesome
marriage.

1196
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:44,480
We just celebrated our 16th
anniversary and we, we love each

1197
01:18:44,480 --> 01:18:49,600
other much more maturely now,
but we've never not loved each

1198
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:55,360
other like we've right, right.
And, and, but I will say, I have

1199
01:18:55,360 --> 01:19:00,000
to say that there have been
years, way more than I'd like to

1200
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:03,080
admit, where I thought I had a
great marriage, but it was

1201
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:06,160
because my wife wasn't telling
me stuff, right.

1202
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:10,600
And, and you know, I want her.
I would much rather she tell me

1203
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:16,200
stuff than not tell me stuff.
But it doesn't mean I want, I

1204
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:18,720
like hearing the stuff when it,
when she shares.

1205
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:21,040
And I think she knew that.
She knew that.

1206
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:25,200
And so she thinking that she was
being a Good Wife was, was kind

1207
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:29,640
of burying some of those
feelings and, and like, but, but

1208
01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:33,680
the reality is like, that's not,
that's not marriage or it's

1209
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:36,280
marriage, but it's that's not
going to produce and it's a

1210
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:40,120
celestial eternal marriage
relationship.

1211
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:41,640
You know, does that kind of make
sense?

1212
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:43,640
No, that makes that makes total
sense.

1213
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:47,320
And there's a lot here to
unpack, right?

1214
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:51,440
And and I think, I think we need
to because I think this is this

1215
01:19:51,440 --> 01:19:53,920
is where the rubber meets the
road on this, right?

1216
01:19:55,840 --> 01:20:01,160
And I want to say this, right,
we've all had arguments with our

1217
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:04,520
spouse, right?
And and sometimes tears are

1218
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:07,200
shed.
Right now, Last week, maybe you

1219
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:09,080
haven't.
Unless it's last week, right,

1220
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:12,200
you're in that first 2-3 months,
you might be doing just fine,

1221
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:16,280
but at some point you're going
to Most of us have haven't had

1222
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:19,920
an argument with our spouse,
right where, you know, maybe

1223
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:23,120
nobody was wrong, right.
And that's that's taken me years

1224
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:25,680
to figure out that sometimes
nobody's wrong.

1225
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:29,680
Sometimes you guys are just a
difference of opinion and trying

1226
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:33,600
to figure it all out, right?
And tears are shed there, right?

1227
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:36,120
I I don't think those are the
same kind of tears that the Lord

1228
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:41,000
is talking about.
No, well, and and like, you

1229
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:45,760
know, for my wife and I, we
didn't argue like hardly at all

1230
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:47,520
for years.
So I don't know, maybe our

1231
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:49,480
honeymoon lasted for a year, for
years.

1232
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:55,760
I, I do feel very blessed, like
I, I, I, I, I am so blessed by

1233
01:20:55,760 --> 01:21:01,280
it to have the wife that I have.
But it's, it's also really

1234
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:08,600
interesting because like she, it
wasn't until several years into

1235
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:13,520
our marriage that I kind of was
feeling that there was something

1236
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:16,560
off.
But but I would like, hey, is

1237
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:19,840
everything OK?
And but you know, a Good Wife

1238
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:22,440
doesn't complain.
A Good Wife is just here to

1239
01:21:22,440 --> 01:21:26,640
submit and support her husband.
And it's like I had to learn as

1240
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:32,960
a husband how to not just build
trust that that she could come

1241
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:34,920
to me with problems and I could
help her fix them.

1242
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:41,720
Like she had to be able to trust
me that, that to the point where

1243
01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:49,120
rather than, you know, if she
confides something, that if she

1244
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:52,960
makes it observes an, an issue
or complaints about something,

1245
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:58,600
that I don't just get defensive,
but I, I just listen and, you

1246
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:01,560
know, respond with humility and,
and kindness.

1247
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:05,760
And, and you know, because as
men, like it's natural, we, we

1248
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:11,440
want to, rather than take
responsibility when we do stupid

1249
01:22:11,440 --> 01:22:16,640
stuff, we want to make excuses
or, or, you know, start pointing

1250
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:21,720
fingers and, and blaming and,
and so like to, to the men

1251
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:24,880
listening.
And, and I'm not, I, I'm speak,

1252
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:27,880
I'm preaching to myself because
like, you know, the, the, the

1253
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:32,080
wife must feel safe to speak
things, even the things that a

1254
01:22:32,320 --> 01:22:35,640
man doesn't want to hear.
Likewise, a husband has to feel

1255
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:39,360
safe to be able to confide in
his wife when he feels weak.

1256
01:22:39,480 --> 01:22:45,040
Like, yeah, like that's hard.
And, and so like to the men

1257
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:47,720
listening, speaking to myself as
well.

1258
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:53,600
Have you cultivated this trust?
Have, have you like just shut up

1259
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:57,200
and listened for, for a change
and then responded with the

1260
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:03,040
humility, the the kindness and
not not harshness or blame or

1261
01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:07,800
making excuses.
And and if you, if you're just

1262
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:11,680
like, Oh yeah, I don't do that.
Like, Are you sure?

1263
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:15,680
Because I thought I was too.
And like, would you, would you

1264
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:22,200
bet your exaltation on it?
Or might it be worth doing some

1265
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:25,040
checking?
Because you don't know what you

1266
01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:28,360
don't know, right?
You don't you don't know what

1267
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:31,920
your wife isn't telling you if
she's not telling you and and

1268
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:33,880
maybe there's nothing, but it
can't hurt to check.

1269
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:37,800
And so like, and if, if you, if
you don't do that already, I

1270
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:43,800
would encourage you to, to make
that a part of your routine to

1271
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:50,240
just check in and you know, just
that humble counseling with your

1272
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:52,920
wife or wives, if you're in a
plural situation.

1273
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:56,720
And then once you've earned that
trust, once you've, once you've

1274
01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:01,680
extended that enough times and,
and encourage them to be able to

1275
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:08,440
open up and share even those
difficult things like then, then

1276
01:24:08,440 --> 01:24:12,160
now, you know, and, and when,
when they come out, now you can

1277
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:15,880
actually repent and improve.
And I tell you what, like as

1278
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:18,520
good as the honeymoon phase was,
And, and if if that's what it

1279
01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:22,080
was, my honeymoon phase lasted
for years and I loved it.

1280
01:24:22,440 --> 01:24:25,800
But as good as that was, I
wouldn't trade that for my

1281
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:32,680
marriage today for $1,000,000.
So, you know, I think that I

1282
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:35,240
want to extend that invitation
to any of the men listening.

1283
01:24:37,480 --> 01:24:41,320
You know, if you've been married
for five years or 50 years, like

1284
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:44,200
I think this is good counsel and
it, and it you don't know what

1285
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:46,880
you don't know.
And and it's really important to

1286
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:49,800
find out.
You know, I want to speak to

1287
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:54,640
this a little bit, right?
Don't assume that just because

1288
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:57,160
you're sealed in the House of
the Lord that everything's

1289
01:24:57,160 --> 01:25:02,360
golden, right?
We are told very on in that

1290
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:06,920
endowment process that if you
are true and faithful to these

1291
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:09,040
covenants, these are the
blessings.

1292
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:13,960
OK, so let's, let's look and and
I'm going to lump the the

1293
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:16,720
ceiling in here with the law
chastity, because I feel like

1294
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:18,800
they go hand in hand, obviously,
right?

1295
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:26,000
If just because someone
pronounces you now as one

1296
01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:28,080
doesn't mean you're there,
right?

1297
01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:31,200
That's telling you where the
goal is and you got to go there.

1298
01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:39,680
And I understand for dudes,
vulnerability is a huge deal,

1299
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:44,960
right?
We, we, we don't live in the

1300
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:48,960
world and and quite frankly,
we're not most of us, right?

1301
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:52,720
I don't want to speak overall,
but most of us aren't born with

1302
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:57,960
this innate desire to be overly
Sherry with our feelings, right?

1303
01:25:58,360 --> 01:26:02,600
We're more like, bro, rub some
dirt on that thing and get back

1304
01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:05,080
in the game, right?
And there's a certain amount of

1305
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:08,200
that that is very healthy to the
male psyche, right?

1306
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:12,320
And there's a time and a place
like if, if, if people are

1307
01:26:12,320 --> 01:26:15,280
shooting bullets at you and your
family, like, that's probably

1308
01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:17,000
not the time to be getting in
your feelings.

1309
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:20,960
No, no, at that point you're,
you should have one feeling and

1310
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:23,000
that's extinguished the threat,
right?

1311
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:29,360
And, and, and so that's, that's
there by design and, and we

1312
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:36,320
shouldn't shy away from that,
but I, I can really resonate

1313
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:39,600
with what you're saying about
being as married as, as long as,

1314
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:42,560
as you have been.
Now, Amber and I celebrated 29

1315
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:48,160
years in, in November and Tanya
and I just had our, our 2nd

1316
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:52,720
wedding anniversary.
Both of those women are my

1317
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:56,640
solace right at the end of the
day.

1318
01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:00,400
Look, news flash, I enjoy doing
this podcast.

1319
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:04,600
I really do, but it is a time
drain, right?

1320
01:27:05,160 --> 01:27:10,920
And there are times where I just
come to bed after, after work is

1321
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:14,880
done, after the podcast is done.
I feel that the last phone call,

1322
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:19,760
I wrote the last e-mail and I
just go to bed and I'm just

1323
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:25,040
done, done right?
And there's, there's times when

1324
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:27,720
I doubt am I am I even making an
impact?

1325
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:31,720
Should I keep doing this?
I don't understand, right.

1326
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:36,720
And they're the ones there and
it has taken me a while to get

1327
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:40,720
to the point to where I can be
vulnerable in front of my wives.

1328
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:51,480
But but I'm there now.
And like you were saying, it's

1329
01:27:51,480 --> 01:27:54,760
so much better than the
honeymoon phase, right?

1330
01:27:54,840 --> 01:28:00,120
So much better.
The other thing I'll say, I, I

1331
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:02,800
think it's important that we
need to, to talk about

1332
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:07,760
submission a little bit, right?
And what that looks like or, or

1333
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:09,960
at least how I think it should
look like, right?

1334
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:12,000
And I'm not going to sit here
and pretend to tell you that I'm

1335
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:15,000
a marriage counselor because I
am not, right?

1336
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:18,920
I am not.
We should put that disclaimer in

1337
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:20,760
bold at the front.
Yeah, let's put that.

1338
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:24,280
In bold, right?
Neither Tyler, neither Taylor

1339
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:27,920
nor myself are our marriage
experts.

1340
01:28:29,080 --> 01:28:36,360
But the whole reason I'm in
Missouri now is because my wife

1341
01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:39,240
felt comfortable enough to come
up and voice it, right?

1342
01:28:40,480 --> 01:28:41,960
I was.
I was.

1343
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:44,600
I came out, I had a good
experience here.

1344
01:28:45,080 --> 01:28:48,120
I thought, yeah, maybe someday,
maybe a year, right?

1345
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:52,560
And I drove back telling the
girls that, you know, let's give

1346
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:55,840
it a year, let's let things cool
off, Let's just make sure,

1347
01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:58,360
right?
I'm I try to be very deliberate

1348
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:02,520
in these kinds of things.
Let's not be too nasty and and.

1349
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:08,200
Right, right.
And so I, I finish a podcast one

1350
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:12,240
night and the girls must have
been listening at the door

1351
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:16,080
because I no longer was like,
bye everybody and have a short 5

1352
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:20,400
minute conversation and hit end
and there's a knock at the door,

1353
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,160
right.
And you were in that old house,

1354
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:24,520
you know what you're in, I'm
talking about.

1355
01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:29,680
So I, you know, I let him in and
they both are just sitting there

1356
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:32,000
looking at me like, Hey, we need
to talk.

1357
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:39,280
And I thought, uh oh.
And so they came and they said,

1358
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:43,080
Hey, we need, we need to get to,
we need to get to Missouri

1359
01:29:43,080 --> 01:29:46,920
sooner.
And I'm like, there was, I'm not

1360
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:50,960
going to lie, there was a
twinge, right, of like and, and

1361
01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:56,080
look, probably 15 years ago,
maybe 10 years ago, looking back

1362
01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:58,680
on who I am, I probably would
have dug my feet in a little

1363
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:00,880
more, right?
I'd have been a little more

1364
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:02,600
defensive.
I'd have been a little more

1365
01:30:03,080 --> 01:30:06,120
whatever.
But they said this is what we've

1366
01:30:06,120 --> 01:30:08,880
been feeling.
And if you can just pray about

1367
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:14,480
it one more time, you know, get
rid of all your plans, right?

1368
01:30:14,480 --> 01:30:17,880
Not that they're not good plans,
but get rid of your plans and,

1369
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:22,440
and honestly seek then we'll,
we'll do whatever it is you feel

1370
01:30:22,440 --> 01:30:26,440
is right here.
And look, I'll be honest, I, I

1371
01:30:26,440 --> 01:30:31,360
was less than happy with that.
I was like, you know, no, I,

1372
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:33,600
I've made this decision.
We're good.

1373
01:30:35,440 --> 01:30:39,720
But I hit my knees, prayed
together as as as you know,

1374
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:42,800
husband and wives.
And then I prayed by myself.

1375
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:46,840
And dude, two days later, the
answer just came, Yeah, now's

1376
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:49,640
the time.
And so as I talked to the girls,

1377
01:30:50,440 --> 01:30:52,400
everything falls into place,
right?

1378
01:30:52,520 --> 01:30:54,040
Everything.
You know how quick that move

1379
01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:58,480
came about, it was, it was shoo
just done right?

1380
01:30:59,760 --> 01:31:04,640
Now I look back on that and I
would have missed out on so many

1381
01:31:04,640 --> 01:31:08,240
blessings had I just dug my
heels in.

1382
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:12,560
I'd have missed out on so much,
right?

1383
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:19,920
But because I chose to hear my
wives out because, and I thank

1384
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:23,800
God every day I did, because I
understand that with who I am,

1385
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:26,560
there's a very real possibility
I always choose wrong.

1386
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:32,280
And so this, this one thing, you
know, this, this time I just

1387
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:36,280
happened to to do it right and
we were blessed for it.

1388
01:31:37,840 --> 01:31:42,880
So I want to say that that this
whole submission thing isn't

1389
01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:46,280
just I'm the man.
Now be quiet and let let me do

1390
01:31:46,280 --> 01:31:50,400
my work, right?
There's you're a fool if you

1391
01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:54,800
don't listen to your spouse and
hear out their concerns and

1392
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:56,200
whatever.
And I'm not going to always

1393
01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:58,960
promise that everyone's going to
be happy with the decision and

1394
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:02,000
the outcome, you know,
immediately.

1395
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:06,160
But if you do those things and
and you work at it, right?

1396
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:10,480
And working is the hard part.
There's there's a lot of of

1397
01:32:10,480 --> 01:32:14,240
blessings to be had there and
we're designed to make one

1398
01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:18,520
another stronger, right?
If, if we can manage our egos a

1399
01:32:18,520 --> 01:32:21,600
little bit, check those at the
door and look, I'm mainly

1400
01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:24,960
talking to the dudes here,
mainly because I know where my

1401
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:29,200
ego needs to be checked
frequently and just put that

1402
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:32,200
away because there is, there is
a beauty there.

1403
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:37,360
And if it breaks my heart
thinking that there are

1404
01:32:37,360 --> 01:32:42,840
marriages where, where you're
not each other's solace, right?

1405
01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:47,560
You're not each other's peace.
When, when all the chips are

1406
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:50,360
down, who is it you go to,
right?

1407
01:32:50,440 --> 01:32:55,600
I love my brother, I love my
brethren, but man, nothing

1408
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:59,400
compares sitting down and
talking to either one or both of

1409
01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:04,480
my wives, right?
I just this last weekend, Tanya

1410
01:33:04,480 --> 01:33:08,800
and I went out and celebrated
our anniversary and I just

1411
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:12,360
remember thinking, I just don't
want this to end right.

1412
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:14,840
I don't want to have to go back
to the grind of work.

1413
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:18,760
I wanted to get back and see
Amber and and stuff, but I just

1414
01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:21,360
didn't want to go back to the
grind right in that moment.

1415
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:26,520
My marriage was my solace and it
was my my peace.

1416
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:29,240
And I think that's what we got
to get to.

1417
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:33,440
And as guys, I mean, we have to
help foster that, right?

1418
01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:39,600
We got to be able to check our
aggression at the door at times

1419
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:46,240
and just leave that outside when
we're having, when we're dealing

1420
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:50,480
with our marriages.
Because I, I think it can do

1421
01:33:50,480 --> 01:33:53,080
some damage if it's left
unchecked, right?

1422
01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:57,400
And certainly there is a place
where the man has to make the

1423
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:00,680
call, right?
That's that is what we're called

1424
01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:04,360
to do and so we have to do it,
but that doesn't mean that you

1425
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:07,120
should do it at the expense of
everything else.

1426
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:11,040
Right.
And, you know, I do want to say

1427
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:16,080
because as men, we kind of have
a little bit more experience on

1428
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:19,960
this side of the equation, but
I, I've had many conversations

1429
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:24,480
with my wife, even preparing for
to, to, to come and talk about

1430
01:34:24,480 --> 01:34:28,680
this on the podcast.
And so I do want to just kind of

1431
01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:32,960
do another invitation.
So for any of the women that are

1432
01:34:32,960 --> 01:34:39,680
listening and, and so like, cuz
men like we're like, the main

1433
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:43,160
thing is do our, why are our
wives telling us what they

1434
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:45,760
actually feel like?
We need to cultivate the trust

1435
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:49,280
that that they can tell us even
the things that we don't want to

1436
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:53,080
hear for the women.
You want to be able to tell your

1437
01:34:53,080 --> 01:34:56,520
husband.
But but sometimes women have a a

1438
01:34:56,520 --> 01:35:00,640
propensity like women also have
to cultivate trust.

1439
01:35:01,200 --> 01:35:03,800
And the way that a woman
cultivates trust is very

1440
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:08,240
different because the woman must
cultivate trust through showing

1441
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:12,040
respect, not at like through
through showing love and

1442
01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:17,480
respect, not criticizing, not
criticism and shame in his

1443
01:35:17,480 --> 01:35:21,400
weakest moments.
Like, it's one thing for when a

1444
01:35:21,400 --> 01:35:28,320
husband is, you know, on his A
game, doing well, you know, then

1445
01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:32,560
you can be supportive, right?
But what about in his weakest

1446
01:35:32,560 --> 01:35:37,400
moments?
Like those are the moments when

1447
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:43,720
women can be very critical, can
find fault.

1448
01:35:44,400 --> 01:35:46,240
And I'm not saying that we don't
deserve it.

1449
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:50,000
Right.
But if, if you want your husband

1450
01:35:50,000 --> 01:35:56,920
to communicate with you, you
have to respond with, without

1451
01:35:56,920 --> 01:36:01,160
the criticism, the shame, the
the anger that like and and and

1452
01:36:01,560 --> 01:36:06,520
and pointing the finger like
'cause as a woman, like, do you

1453
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:12,040
also withhold communication and
then hold it against your

1454
01:36:12,040 --> 01:36:14,480
husband when he doesn't meet
your needs?

1455
01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:17,240
Like by reading your mind?
Like this is a conversation.

1456
01:36:17,240 --> 01:36:19,200
It's kind of a standing joke
with my wife and me.

1457
01:36:20,360 --> 01:36:24,720
Like, sweetie, I, I can tell
you're upset what's going on

1458
01:36:24,720 --> 01:36:29,440
and, and she'll share it and I'm
like, OK, well, what the I, I

1459
01:36:29,440 --> 01:36:35,520
thought that the you didn't, you
didn't tell me that like, and

1460
01:36:35,640 --> 01:36:38,640
and she, we kind of just laughed
about it because she kind of

1461
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:41,080
expects me to read her mind
sometimes and, and holds it

1462
01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:44,880
against me if I don't.
And you know, this is not

1463
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:46,720
something that we're currently
really dealing with.

1464
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:49,920
It's but we've, it took us a
while to kind of like, First

1465
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:55,320
off, identify that was the, the
source of kind of the, the, the

1466
01:36:55,320 --> 01:36:58,320
lack of harmony and unity in the
relationship.

1467
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:03,560
And then once we had identified
it, like figuring out how to,

1468
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:07,960
how to address it.
So, so as a woman, look for

1469
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:14,120
opportunities to not criticize
or find fault or shame a husband

1470
01:37:14,160 --> 01:37:20,920
when he screws up, when he
fails, don't expect him to read

1471
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:23,440
your mind.
Men were pretty dumb.

1472
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:26,920
Like we don't really, we're not
good at reading your mind.

1473
01:37:27,080 --> 01:37:33,080
And you know, and so if a woman
is truly a helpmeet to your

1474
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:37,840
husband, like that's totally
different than you know, because

1475
01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:44,640
that's being there for him when
he's vulnerable, You know, it's

1476
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:48,480
it's very different to just be a
woman that like gave exclusive

1477
01:37:48,480 --> 01:37:50,840
rights to your body and you
produce children.

1478
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:52,560
Like that's that's not
faithfulness.

1479
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:58,160
That's not, I mean, it's
marriage, but it's a very much

1480
01:37:58,160 --> 01:38:00,440
lower level.
It's shallow.

1481
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:02,040
Right.
It's a shallow marriage.

1482
01:38:02,200 --> 01:38:03,440
Yeah, that's a good way to put
it.

1483
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:10,760
And so like are again, like the
men, we have the tendency to

1484
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:12,240
think I don't do any of those
things.

1485
01:38:12,360 --> 01:38:14,920
Oh, yeah, I do that.
My wife trusts me.

1486
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:16,720
My wife tells me what she's
thinking.

1487
01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:22,760
Well, women, you might not want
to identify any of these things

1488
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:26,560
in yourself.
And so I just would ask you to

1489
01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:30,480
consider like, are you certain?
And would you bet your

1490
01:38:30,680 --> 01:38:35,080
exaltation on it?
Because if, if it's, if your

1491
01:38:35,080 --> 01:38:40,600
husband doesn't actually feel
that from you, the respect, the

1492
01:38:40,600 --> 01:38:46,200
love, the, you know, then your
marriage is going to end after

1493
01:38:46,200 --> 01:38:51,280
this life.
Like, you know, well, it, it, it

1494
01:38:51,280 --> 01:38:53,800
has a, it has, it's at serious
risk of ending.

1495
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:56,880
I'm not going to, I'm not going
to say, you know, anything like

1496
01:38:56,880 --> 01:39:01,040
that, but so, so might it, it
can't hurt to check.

1497
01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:04,560
So isn't it worth doing some
checking, you know, humbling

1498
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:07,280
ourselves counseling, you know,
as women counseling with your

1499
01:39:07,280 --> 01:39:10,120
husband's and, and possibly
sister wise, like if there's a

1500
01:39:10,120 --> 01:39:13,360
plural situation, it's more than
just one other party in this

1501
01:39:13,360 --> 01:39:16,400
relation, in this marriage
relationship, like there's,

1502
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:20,240
there's other people and, and
all parties must be respected.

1503
01:39:20,240 --> 01:39:24,640
All parties must be humble.
All parties are involved in this

1504
01:39:24,640 --> 01:39:27,400
effort of living the law of
chastity.

1505
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:30,880
In other words, being faithful
to our covenants, not just with

1506
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:33,560
our spouses, but also with the
Lord.

1507
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:38,240
And we all have room to repent
and we can't just be doing that

1508
01:39:38,320 --> 01:39:41,960
and giving Idlib service.
Like, you know, even Joseph,

1509
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:46,200
remember there's a time that he
says search your hearts and see

1510
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:50,320
if you were like God.
I have searched mine and I feel

1511
01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:52,760
too repent of all my sins.
Yeah.

1512
01:39:54,080 --> 01:39:57,760
Now, if Joseph said that, and
this was not when he was young,

1513
01:39:58,000 --> 01:39:59,960
this was, he was pretty
advanced.

1514
01:39:59,960 --> 01:40:01,560
Like, you know, I think this is
Nauvoo.

1515
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:07,440
He's he probably was certainly
in his mid late 30s and like he

1516
01:40:07,440 --> 01:40:10,840
accomplished so much by the age
of 20, like it's just

1517
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:13,080
unfathomable.
For the most of us to.

1518
01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:20,240
Even relate right and so like if
that's Joseph that it that's

1519
01:40:20,240 --> 01:40:28,120
that's an example of humility
and so if we if we know but

1520
01:40:28,120 --> 01:40:35,520
don't do we don't really know
like and we love to deceive

1521
01:40:35,520 --> 01:40:39,000
ourselves and excuse ourselves
and we we like to indulge in the

1522
01:40:39,000 --> 01:40:42,360
illusion that we are doing well
that we are good people.

1523
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:47,600
But a man can be saved by no no
faster than any gains knowledge

1524
01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:49,800
right Isn't that Doctrine
Covenant Certainly the teachings

1525
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:53,400
of Joseph.
That is true, but but it's not

1526
01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:58,840
an intellectual endeavor.
Like God doesn't care how smart

1527
01:40:58,840 --> 01:41:01,520
we are or how many books we've
read or how many scriptures

1528
01:41:01,520 --> 01:41:07,000
we've memorized or our deep
insights and, and wise, our wise

1529
01:41:07,000 --> 01:41:12,680
conversations that we have, like
we, that's not what God cares

1530
01:41:12,680 --> 01:41:16,040
about.
Even even things like, yes,

1531
01:41:16,520 --> 01:41:19,120
doing all those things, being
smart, having ideas, reading our

1532
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:21,720
scriptures, memorizing
scriptures, having

1533
01:41:21,720 --> 01:41:24,480
conversations, discussing,
serving in the temple.

1534
01:41:24,480 --> 01:41:27,080
All those things are good.
Like, like, don't get me wrong,

1535
01:41:27,080 --> 01:41:29,160
these are important and
wonderful.

1536
01:41:29,520 --> 01:41:33,000
They're they're tools designed
to help us progress spiritually.

1537
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:38,680
What I'm trying to communicate
is that the gospel is not a a

1538
01:41:38,680 --> 01:41:40,440
checklist.
Right.

1539
01:41:41,040 --> 01:41:46,040
It's not about what we do half
as much as it's who we become as

1540
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:47,360
we're doing it.
Yep.

1541
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:54,800
So, you know, obviously do the
do the things, but it's but it's

1542
01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:58,480
not about what we do.
It's about who we're so and it

1543
01:41:58,480 --> 01:42:01,120
it's not enough to talk about it
like and think that I'm doing

1544
01:42:01,120 --> 01:42:03,360
good.
Like we have to we have to know

1545
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:07,440
like we, we have to be about it.
We can't just to talk about it.

1546
01:42:07,440 --> 01:42:10,440
We got to be about it.
Because like I said, if we don't

1547
01:42:10,440 --> 01:42:15,000
do, if we know but don't do, if
we know but don't do, we don't

1548
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:19,520
really know.
If we learn but don't change, we

1549
01:42:19,520 --> 01:42:24,000
haven't really learned.
And the discussion is not about

1550
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:25,880
information, it's about
transformation.

1551
01:42:26,480 --> 01:42:30,840
Right.
You know the the people that the

1552
01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:34,080
the ordinances, the priesthood,
the individuals that administer

1553
01:42:34,080 --> 01:42:36,160
them.
Those are really important.

1554
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:38,400
Don't get me wrong, you need the
ordinances.

1555
01:42:38,400 --> 01:42:42,560
Christ himself was baptized and
he was without sin and so like

1556
01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:46,360
if he needed it, we sure as you
know what need it.

1557
01:42:46,800 --> 01:42:53,680
But even if Christ himself
performed a marriage or, or

1558
01:42:53,880 --> 01:42:56,760
well, maybe Joseph, let's make
it a little bit, let's bring it

1559
01:42:56,760 --> 01:43:01,480
down to maybe more our level.
Even if Joseph himself performed

1560
01:43:01,480 --> 01:43:07,320
a marriage ceiling, that alone
does not guarantee that it's

1561
01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:09,400
going to be celestial or
eternal, right?

1562
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:14,440
You know, we got to cultivate
the bonds, the attributes, the

1563
01:43:14,440 --> 01:43:18,080
relationships.
And in my experience, my very

1564
01:43:18,080 --> 01:43:21,080
limited and, and, but maybe more
than some people's listening

1565
01:43:21,080 --> 01:43:25,800
experience, like marriage is the
best tool that God gives us to

1566
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:30,240
cultivate attributes that can to
become like him to, you know,

1567
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:34,000
and so like they the weight and
the other amazing thing about

1568
01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:37,320
the ordinances and the laws, the
covenants that we make in the

1569
01:43:37,320 --> 01:43:42,960
temple and such is it's it's
they instruct us, they tell us

1570
01:43:42,960 --> 01:43:47,000
how to acquire these attributes.
So they give us the the spouse

1571
01:43:47,600 --> 01:43:49,960
that will help us better than
anything else to acquire these

1572
01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:52,440
attributes.
They they lay out the pattern,

1573
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:56,440
they they show the way of how to
do it in, in, in the ordinances

1574
01:43:56,440 --> 01:43:57,800
themselves.
Right.

1575
01:43:58,760 --> 01:44:03,680
Cuz, you know, marriage must be
it, it it's much more than just

1576
01:44:03,680 --> 01:44:05,760
a functional partnership.
Yeah.

1577
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:13,520
It it's it should be romantic
marriage should be an eternal

1578
01:44:14,480 --> 01:44:15,880
romance.
Yep.

1579
01:44:16,600 --> 01:44:21,920
I mean, I, I, I look and I
contemplate in my, you know,

1580
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:26,880
spiritually equivalent of like
a, an infant or, you know, maybe

1581
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:30,480
a toddler perspective, trying to
comprehend father and mother.

1582
01:44:31,200 --> 01:44:34,880
And they are deeply, madly in
love with one another and

1583
01:44:34,880 --> 01:44:41,600
they're just living out their
eternity the way that they want.

1584
01:44:42,040 --> 01:44:45,160
And, and, and they're, it's a
romance that they're, they're,

1585
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:46,720
they're just engaged with
eternally.

1586
01:44:46,720 --> 01:44:51,360
So anyway, ran over.
I, I wanted to go through some

1587
01:44:51,360 --> 01:44:55,400
of those things because like
it's, it takes both sides, takes

1588
01:44:55,400 --> 01:44:59,840
the men in a marriage and it
takes the woman or the women in

1589
01:44:59,840 --> 01:45:02,280
a marriage.
It can't.

1590
01:45:02,760 --> 01:45:06,040
Neither is the husband without
the man or the the the wife, nor

1591
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:07,680
the wife without the husband and
the Lord.

1592
01:45:08,040 --> 01:45:11,400
You know the fullness of joy
requires a union.

1593
01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:17,480
And you know the law of chastity
is not just abstaining from

1594
01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:23,560
adultery or even the higher law,
abstaining from lust, which is

1595
01:45:23,560 --> 01:45:25,520
much harder.
That's much, it's much more

1596
01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:28,560
advanced.
But the law of chastity is about

1597
01:45:28,560 --> 01:45:32,160
much more than that, because
being faithful to our covenants

1598
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:42,080
requires us to become gods.
I don't know how else to say

1599
01:45:42,080 --> 01:45:45,040
that, Right, Right.
We're not there till we're

1600
01:45:45,040 --> 01:45:48,880
there.
And so like, if we're going to

1601
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:51,920
keep this cut this law, if we're
going to keep this covenant, the

1602
01:45:51,920 --> 01:45:55,840
law of chastity, we got to make
it to godhood.

1603
01:45:56,480 --> 01:46:02,200
Yeah.
Anyway, yeah, no, I couple

1604
01:46:02,200 --> 01:46:09,040
things there, right.
I think the goal is all right.

1605
01:46:09,160 --> 01:46:11,160
All right, I'll make this a
little personal here.

1606
01:46:14,520 --> 01:46:20,880
I watched an older couple in in
in my family.

1607
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:30,320
The husband died.
They've been married for 50 some

1608
01:46:30,320 --> 01:46:37,880
years and shortly thereafter the
wife passed as well.

1609
01:46:37,880 --> 01:46:41,720
I mean, really shortly
thereafter, just over a month.

1610
01:46:41,960 --> 01:46:44,040
And she was perfectly healthy
before that.

1611
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,200
And this is going to sound kind
of bad.

1612
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:51,440
And and so you got to hear me
out.

1613
01:46:53,120 --> 01:46:59,520
I want that kind of a marriage
with both my wife's right where

1614
01:46:59,520 --> 01:47:02,920
where you die of old age and one
just can't live without the

1615
01:47:02,920 --> 01:47:05,240
other.
I think at that point you have

1616
01:47:05,240 --> 01:47:09,360
achieved a certain unity and
oneness that I think that

1617
01:47:09,360 --> 01:47:15,240
covenant is really designed to
do right?

1618
01:47:15,280 --> 01:47:19,920
To make you one with your
spouse, with your wife and or

1619
01:47:19,920 --> 01:47:23,920
wives, right?
And you don't get there by

1620
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:27,080
happenstance.
You don't get there by accident.

1621
01:47:27,080 --> 01:47:31,120
I don't care who you are, you
get there through work, right?

1622
01:47:31,400 --> 01:47:34,160
And you just talked about
romance and I agree with you

1623
01:47:34,160 --> 01:47:37,600
100%.
But I also want to say that life

1624
01:47:37,600 --> 01:47:41,520
doesn't always isn't always
conducive to that right?

1625
01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:44,640
Sure, and that's romance.
Romance is different from a

1626
01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:46,480
fairy tale.
Exactly.

1627
01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:48,080
Romance.
Sometimes you're up to your

1628
01:47:48,080 --> 01:47:50,800
ankles in mud and it but it can
still be romantic.

1629
01:47:50,840 --> 01:47:56,400
Yes, but romance, you know, in
in classical music, the romantic

1630
01:47:56,400 --> 01:47:59,880
period isn't like just about
love songs and and like, you

1631
01:47:59,880 --> 01:48:02,360
know, the living happily ever
after.

1632
01:48:02,760 --> 01:48:06,160
It's about the bold adventures
like you, you listen to the

1633
01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:09,840
romantic period of classical
music and it's exciting.

1634
01:48:10,000 --> 01:48:14,840
It's it's it's you know, pushing
into the unknown.

1635
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:20,680
It's it's if it makes you feel
something that is noble and it

1636
01:48:20,680 --> 01:48:23,800
inspires us to greatness and to
to courage.

1637
01:48:24,080 --> 01:48:29,440
Like that's what I'm, you know,
yes, lovey dovey chick flick

1638
01:48:29,440 --> 01:48:31,440
romance.
Like I think that still applies

1639
01:48:31,440 --> 01:48:35,120
in emerge too personally, but
that's not that's not all that

1640
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:39,280
it is like the romance.
The romantic aspect is we are

1641
01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:45,640
literally engaged in the most
epic adventure story of our

1642
01:48:45,640 --> 01:48:46,960
lives.
Absolutely.

1643
01:48:47,280 --> 01:48:51,080
And we have the best partner,
you know, we got a ride or die

1644
01:48:51,240 --> 01:48:53,880
on our at our side.
That's what marriage should.

1645
01:48:53,880 --> 01:48:57,920
Be you know, I remember when I
knew, like I knew Tanya was

1646
01:48:57,920 --> 01:49:00,360
supposed to be in the family
without a shadow of a doubt,

1647
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:03,760
right the the moment we were
even before we got married.

1648
01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:07,800
But every once in a while the
Lord absolutely sends like

1649
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:10,520
little confirmations, I think,
right?

1650
01:49:11,520 --> 01:49:15,080
And Amber's used to it, right?
But I mean, because like, look,

1651
01:49:15,120 --> 01:49:17,960
I did my share of moving around,
right, chasing the dollar,

1652
01:49:18,240 --> 01:49:20,480
right?
Moved from Boise to Maryland,

1653
01:49:20,480 --> 01:49:23,800
from Maryland back to Boise to
adopt A set of twins, right?

1654
01:49:23,800 --> 01:49:29,520
We've been through it and we're
getting we got snowed in in

1655
01:49:29,520 --> 01:49:33,600
Wyoming on our way out here to,
to, to Utah for just, I mean, to

1656
01:49:33,600 --> 01:49:35,240
Missouri for just a couple
hours.

1657
01:49:35,240 --> 01:49:37,040
Could have been way worse,
right?

1658
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:39,720
And that's a miracle in and of
itself that involved prayer and

1659
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:42,480
stuff.
But I remember, and I don't even

1660
01:49:42,480 --> 01:49:45,560
know if she remembers saying
this, but I was frustrated and

1661
01:49:45,560 --> 01:49:49,040
irritated and I kind of walked
out of the hotel room and it's

1662
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:53,360
like January, late January,
early February, and the wind is

1663
01:49:53,360 --> 01:49:56,600
whipping sideways through
Wyoming and I'm just watching

1664
01:49:56,600 --> 01:50:00,600
the snow drifts pile up.
And I'm just, I'm just pissed

1665
01:50:00,600 --> 01:50:01,800
off, right?
I'm like.

1666
01:50:04,160 --> 01:50:07,640
And I don't, again, I don't know
if she even remembers this, but

1667
01:50:07,640 --> 01:50:10,680
she just came out and Tanya came
out and she just put her hand on

1668
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:14,400
my shoulder and she goes, think
about the story we get to tell

1669
01:50:14,400 --> 01:50:16,680
about this after we're done,
though, right?

1670
01:50:16,680 --> 01:50:19,760
And I'm like, all right, that's
a very Sanders thing to say,

1671
01:50:19,840 --> 01:50:21,160
right?
It really is right?

1672
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:23,600
Good point.
Yeah, yeah.

1673
01:50:23,880 --> 01:50:27,840
Yeah, point taken, right.
And that was one of those

1674
01:50:27,840 --> 01:50:30,960
confirmations like, yeah, it
probably is par for the course

1675
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:35,320
with me, right?
But yeah, it's just it.

1676
01:50:35,320 --> 01:50:38,240
And look, I want to say this
too, right?

1677
01:50:39,440 --> 01:50:44,280
These kind of marriages can and
should exist plurally as well as

1678
01:50:45,080 --> 01:50:49,280
through monogamy, right?
Takes work, takes work, but it

1679
01:50:49,280 --> 01:50:55,520
can absolutely be done.
I'm I'm by no means perfect yet.

1680
01:50:55,560 --> 01:51:01,080
I mean, there's times I think,
man, it's it's a rough chore

1681
01:51:01,080 --> 01:51:05,640
being married to me, right?
I understand the the OR I at

1682
01:51:05,640 --> 01:51:08,600
least try to understand what
it's like to be married to me.

1683
01:51:08,600 --> 01:51:11,440
The phone rings constantly.
You know, something's always

1684
01:51:11,440 --> 01:51:15,200
going on, but those women just
take it in stride and like I

1685
01:51:15,200 --> 01:51:19,440
said, are my solace.
And for men, I think chastity

1686
01:51:19,440 --> 01:51:22,560
looks like garden at heart,
right of of your spouse.

1687
01:51:23,040 --> 01:51:26,880
You let you are a bulldog at the
door, right?

1688
01:51:26,960 --> 01:51:30,640
And you, you got to have each
other's backs.

1689
01:51:31,600 --> 01:51:36,320
I remember I, I marry, I've
married 2 couples in my life and

1690
01:51:36,320 --> 01:51:44,360
I remember one of those I had, I
had told this young couple from

1691
01:51:44,360 --> 01:51:47,720
here on out, it's you two
against the world.

1692
01:51:48,320 --> 01:51:52,360
I'm not saying abandoned your
parents or abandoned your

1693
01:51:52,360 --> 01:51:59,880
family, but understand that you
are each other's priority now.

1694
01:52:00,840 --> 01:52:06,120
And as men, we have to guard
their heart like a bulldog,

1695
01:52:06,240 --> 01:52:08,440
right?
And sometimes even from

1696
01:52:08,440 --> 01:52:11,120
ourselves, when we're most
irritated, when we're most

1697
01:52:11,120 --> 01:52:15,400
angry, when we're most upset.
Look, you'll never meet a guy

1698
01:52:15,520 --> 01:52:18,680
who who is as flawed as what I
am.

1699
01:52:19,240 --> 01:52:22,400
And there's certain things I
know I have to do to mitigate

1700
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:25,120
some of the, the, the natural
aggression there, right?

1701
01:52:25,360 --> 01:52:27,840
I got to lift weights.
I got to go hang with the

1702
01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:34,360
fellas, you know, and, and my
girls, my wife's, they're just

1703
01:52:34,360 --> 01:52:36,800
heaven sent to say no me, they
understand me.

1704
01:52:38,200 --> 01:52:41,120
And when you get to that point
to where you can be vulnerable

1705
01:52:41,120 --> 01:52:45,320
in front of each other and have
uncomfortable conversations or

1706
01:52:45,320 --> 01:52:49,760
sometimes just disagree and
still stick together until it

1707
01:52:50,160 --> 01:52:53,760
till you do find agreement and
unity, That's a beautiful place

1708
01:52:53,760 --> 01:52:56,360
to be.
I mean, it's absolutely a

1709
01:52:56,360 --> 01:52:59,400
beautiful and and is, like you
said, as much as the the

1710
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:03,800
honeymoon period is amazing, the
deep, the depth of the

1711
01:53:03,800 --> 01:53:07,440
relationships that I have now, I
wouldn't trade those for the

1712
01:53:07,440 --> 01:53:10,320
world.
It's it's a more mature love.

1713
01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:14,280
And it, and it doesn't happen on
accident.

1714
01:53:14,280 --> 01:53:18,320
Like it's not, it's not
something it's aging does not

1715
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:22,000
mean growth.
Like you could be married for 50

1716
01:53:22,000 --> 01:53:26,080
years and never get past, you
know, get into that.

1717
01:53:26,400 --> 01:53:32,240
And so it takes conscious effort
and, and labor and, and both

1718
01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:34,600
people need to be.
And you brought up polygamy.

1719
01:53:34,600 --> 01:53:37,600
I do want to just really briefly
talk about, you know, because

1720
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,760
some people would say, well, how
can a man be faithful to his

1721
01:53:40,760 --> 01:53:45,600
first wife and take a second and
you know, and I get it like it,

1722
01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:50,600
it does seem hard to to
understand for folks.

1723
01:53:52,200 --> 01:54:00,120
But this, if nothing else, let
this satisfy our minds about

1724
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:04,840
what's actually the higher law.
Is it easier to balance a

1725
01:54:04,840 --> 01:54:12,240
relationship between one man and
one woman or multiple women and

1726
01:54:12,320 --> 01:54:16,880
a man?
It is in like exponentially more

1727
01:54:16,880 --> 01:54:20,360
difficult to do this right.
And that's why I think that we

1728
01:54:20,360 --> 01:54:24,000
shouldn't just be, you know, I'm
not condemning anybody who lives

1729
01:54:24,000 --> 01:54:25,920
polygamy.
Like there's people in Africa,

1730
01:54:25,920 --> 01:54:28,560
there's people like Native
Americans historically like

1731
01:54:28,720 --> 01:54:30,880
this, this.
It's actually the norm

1732
01:54:30,880 --> 01:54:34,000
societally throughout our
history, our civil history of

1733
01:54:34,000 --> 01:54:37,120
civilization.
This, this forced monogamy thing

1734
01:54:37,120 --> 01:54:39,560
is kind of more of a, of a
recent innovation, you could

1735
01:54:39,560 --> 01:54:45,600
say, but I'm hesitant.
So, so while I'm not willing to,

1736
01:54:45,800 --> 01:54:52,080
to criticize or, or find fault
with African tribes or anybody

1737
01:54:52,080 --> 01:54:57,640
that's living polygamy, like as
Mormons, it's not just and, and

1738
01:54:57,640 --> 01:54:59,680
oh, I guess that's one of the
things especially I've seen in

1739
01:54:59,680 --> 01:55:04,280
certain fundamentalist circles,
a tendency to kind of equate the

1740
01:55:04,280 --> 01:55:10,440
more wives you have, like the
more faithful you are or the

1741
01:55:10,440 --> 01:55:15,240
more righteous you are or like
there's not an inferiority or

1742
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:19,560
superior marriage is marriage.
And, and so polygamous are not

1743
01:55:19,560 --> 01:55:23,320
superior to monogamous.
Monogamous are not superior to

1744
01:55:23,320 --> 01:55:25,080
polygamous.
They're both marriage.

1745
01:55:25,520 --> 01:55:28,640
And I've had a conversation with
some friends, like, you know, if

1746
01:55:28,640 --> 01:55:31,360
you're the parent of one child,
you're a parent.

1747
01:55:32,120 --> 01:55:35,840
If you're a parent of 10
children, you're still a parent.

1748
01:55:36,800 --> 01:55:40,720
And like, I think that we as
fundamentalists sometimes make

1749
01:55:41,040 --> 01:55:46,320
far too much of a deal about
distinct making the distinction

1750
01:55:46,320 --> 01:55:50,080
between when wife versus
multiple wives.

1751
01:55:50,880 --> 01:55:55,600
And so like, let's let's stop
doing that and let's, let's

1752
01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:58,680
focus on because it at best it
becomes distracting.

1753
01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:04,680
Let's focus on the the quality,
not the quantity of our.

1754
01:56:07,040 --> 01:56:12,160
And so like how what else you
were saying you're talking.

1755
01:56:13,000 --> 01:56:15,080
There was another thought I was
trying to finish up.

1756
01:56:16,040 --> 01:56:21,440
I do want to talk about one
other thing, which is that I was

1757
01:56:21,440 --> 01:56:24,480
having a conversation with my,
my brother-in-law, who you know,

1758
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:30,320
well, Justin, and, and we were
talking about the curse.

1759
01:56:30,640 --> 01:56:33,560
This is part of the temple, but
it's also, it's right there in

1760
01:56:33,560 --> 01:56:39,160
Genesis, like Adam and Eve and,
and this curse that's described.

1761
01:56:39,560 --> 01:56:42,800
And so of course they have
different curses, you know, in

1762
01:56:42,800 --> 01:56:44,680
Adam's.
Well, let's start with Eve,

1763
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:51,360
because that's the order it is.
Eve is cursed with a

1764
01:56:51,360 --> 01:56:56,520
pronouncement that her desire
shall be to thy husband and and

1765
01:56:56,520 --> 01:57:00,320
he shall rule over thee, right
over her.

1766
01:57:01,880 --> 01:57:09,200
So that's kind of bleak, right?
Because as a woman, that's seems

1767
01:57:09,200 --> 01:57:12,880
kind of harsh.
And what Justin and I the

1768
01:57:12,880 --> 01:57:17,640
insight that we had was, and I
can't remember he was I think he

1769
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:20,680
had been readings a book that
was talk, you know, exploring

1770
01:57:20,680 --> 01:57:24,320
some of these ideas.
And the insight was that this

1771
01:57:24,320 --> 01:57:30,320
was the natural state.
In other words, like, if it's

1772
01:57:30,320 --> 01:57:35,840
not, it's not like God is
condemning Eve women that your

1773
01:57:35,840 --> 01:57:38,400
desire will be to your husband
and he's going to rule over you.

1774
01:57:38,920 --> 01:57:43,440
He's saying he's it's a warning
like he's he's he.

1775
01:57:43,440 --> 01:57:46,280
It's not the it's not what's
right, It's not what should

1776
01:57:46,280 --> 01:57:47,840
happen.
It's what will naturally

1777
01:57:47,960 --> 01:57:51,280
devolve.
You know, women will naturally

1778
01:57:54,400 --> 01:57:58,480
have a have a propensity to
marry a man that's going to rule

1779
01:57:58,480 --> 01:58:02,160
over her and she's going to be
enslaved to her emotions

1780
01:58:02,760 --> 01:58:05,840
essentially, right?
You know, she's going to her

1781
01:58:05,840 --> 01:58:12,000
desires shall like, I guess the
word that many might be familiar

1782
01:58:12,000 --> 01:58:14,800
with is like codependent.
How many codependent women do we

1783
01:58:14,800 --> 01:58:16,680
know?
There's, there's, they're all

1784
01:58:16,680 --> 01:58:19,960
over the place, right?
And codependent just simply

1785
01:58:19,960 --> 01:58:24,960
means if, if you're not familiar
with that term, that you, you,

1786
01:58:25,320 --> 01:58:29,400
you can't be happy if your
husband does this or that.

1787
01:58:29,400 --> 01:58:34,400
You, you have to, he has to do
certain things.

1788
01:58:34,720 --> 01:58:37,200
And if he doesn't, then you're
miserable.

1789
01:58:37,480 --> 01:58:40,200
Like that's what a codependent
relationship would be.

1790
01:58:40,440 --> 01:58:46,000
Is that you, you, your happiness
is contingent upon the actions

1791
01:58:46,000 --> 01:58:49,800
of somebody else.
And that's very unempowering.

1792
01:58:50,040 --> 01:58:52,880
Like you're, you're just signing
up for misery.

1793
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:56,600
If you if you get into that and
so many of the of the worldly

1794
01:58:56,600 --> 01:59:00,080
marriages that that are, you
know, very easy to observe.

1795
01:59:00,280 --> 01:59:06,160
That's kind of what it is women.
So, you know, women are not to

1796
01:59:06,160 --> 01:59:07,720
be ruled over.
Like we talked about there.

1797
01:59:07,720 --> 01:59:11,520
Women are to submit because like
there's nowhere in nowhere do

1798
01:59:11,520 --> 01:59:13,480
men covenant to rule over their
wives.

1799
01:59:13,760 --> 01:59:19,200
No, sorry, it's not in the thing
we what we do covenant to is to

1800
01:59:19,200 --> 01:59:23,680
receive our wives and our wives
do covenant to submit to the

1801
01:59:23,680 --> 01:59:28,960
husbands, but it's qualified.
It's contingent upon the husband

1802
01:59:29,520 --> 01:59:32,520
submitting to God and obeying
correct principles.

1803
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:36,040
And if your husband is not
obeying correct principles in

1804
01:59:36,040 --> 01:59:39,240
submitting to God, you don't
have a you, you don't have a

1805
01:59:39,240 --> 01:59:41,920
covenantal obligation to submit
to him.

1806
01:59:44,000 --> 01:59:47,760
So and then on the men's side,
like Adam's curse, you know, to

1807
01:59:47,760 --> 01:59:52,760
deal with thorns and weeds,
thistles, briars and noxious

1808
01:59:52,760 --> 01:59:55,680
weeds.
And and in the in Genesis

1809
01:59:55,680 --> 01:59:58,360
account, it says a little bit
more.

1810
01:59:58,360 --> 02:00:01,560
It kind of piles it on that
afflict and torment him.

1811
02:00:03,160 --> 02:00:09,040
So again, is do we believe in a
do I do I believe like I'll just

1812
02:00:09,040 --> 02:00:11,560
ask for myself.
I don't believe in a God, a

1813
02:00:11,560 --> 02:00:16,720
punitive God that's just up
there in heaven, like with his

1814
02:00:17,000 --> 02:00:21,040
with his paddle ready for us
mess up so he can smack us.

1815
02:00:21,040 --> 02:00:23,160
And you know, he's not a
vengeful God.

1816
02:00:24,440 --> 02:00:29,560
So I do not believe that this is
like a punitive sentencing.

1817
02:00:30,760 --> 02:00:34,080
This is a warning.
This is the natural consequence.

1818
02:00:34,120 --> 02:00:40,400
And if for men, we must not
through our neglect and because

1819
02:00:40,480 --> 02:00:44,600
it's natural, like men,
especially in gardening, there's

1820
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:49,280
a natural to propensity to kind
of be lazy and neglect.

1821
02:00:50,600 --> 02:00:55,320
And so we got to get over this
propensity to, to to be lazy and

1822
02:00:55,320 --> 02:00:59,320
to like let things go.
As a gardener, I would be a

1823
02:00:59,320 --> 02:01:06,360
pretty poor gardener if my yard
was full of weeds and thistles

1824
02:01:06,360 --> 02:01:10,440
and all that stuff, right?
And so this is, this is

1825
02:01:10,440 --> 02:01:12,440
something that men must guard
against.

1826
02:01:12,760 --> 02:01:16,720
And because like, like again, we
don't, we don't covenant to rule

1827
02:01:16,720 --> 02:01:21,320
over our wife.
We have to earn the trust and

1828
02:01:21,320 --> 02:01:27,480
respect our wives.
And like as the scripture says,

1829
02:01:28,280 --> 02:01:33,360
Christ men love your wives, even
as Christ loved the church and

1830
02:01:33,360 --> 02:01:35,280
laid down his life for it.
Yep.

1831
02:01:35,920 --> 02:01:38,920
Like if we had to take a bullet
for our families, we would.

1832
02:01:39,280 --> 02:01:45,480
Yep.
But dying for our families is in

1833
02:01:45,480 --> 02:01:48,160
many ways far easier than living
for our families because, you

1834
02:01:48,160 --> 02:01:51,400
know, you take the bullet once
and you and you, you know, you

1835
02:01:51,400 --> 02:01:54,720
did it like, OK, right here,
right?

1836
02:01:54,960 --> 02:01:59,640
But living for our families, we
that is as men, that is the

1837
02:01:59,640 --> 02:02:05,880
responsibility that we have.
And, and so there's one last

1838
02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:12,160
little thing I want to say about
just since you brought in the

1839
02:02:12,160 --> 02:02:17,440
sealing aspect, this, I think
this goes hand in glove.

1840
02:02:17,960 --> 02:02:21,800
A man must earn the trust and
affection of his wives by a

1841
02:02:21,800 --> 02:02:23,800
lifetime of love, service and
honor.

1842
02:02:24,600 --> 02:02:29,360
At the judgement bar, wives will
be the expert witnesses either

1843
02:02:29,360 --> 02:02:35,000
for or against their husband.
A man cannot become an heir of

1844
02:02:35,000 --> 02:02:39,880
God without a woman who accepts
him as her God.

1845
02:02:41,320 --> 02:02:45,560
And the reason plural wives is
an eternal necessity for godhood

1846
02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:49,440
is because the law of witnesses
requires at least two or three

1847
02:02:49,440 --> 02:02:50,920
for every word to be
established.

1848
02:02:54,480 --> 02:02:58,240
So 'cause I do not believe that
you have to live polygamy in

1849
02:02:58,240 --> 02:03:03,320
this life or your Sol, but I do
believe it is an eternal

1850
02:03:03,320 --> 02:03:05,720
principle and it is an
essential, like we need to be

1851
02:03:05,720 --> 02:03:09,080
willing in this life.
We don't have to live it in this

1852
02:03:09,080 --> 02:03:13,600
life unless God commands it, in
which case absolutely we have to

1853
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:17,960
live it in this life, right?
But it is an eternal principle,

1854
02:03:17,960 --> 02:03:23,040
and it is a requirement for
eternity in the eternities for

1855
02:03:23,040 --> 02:03:26,040
godhood, because of the law of
witnesses.

1856
02:03:26,400 --> 02:03:30,040
Yep, Yep, I've I've heard that
before.

1857
02:03:30,680 --> 02:03:33,200
You know, I want to touch just
for a second on the gardening

1858
02:03:33,200 --> 02:03:37,840
aspect that you just brought in,
those thorns, thistles and

1859
02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:42,560
noxious weeds.
If a dude is left to himself,

1860
02:03:42,880 --> 02:03:46,160
he's going to develop those,
right?

1861
02:03:46,160 --> 02:03:47,840
I mean, there, there's no doubt
about it.

1862
02:03:48,280 --> 02:03:53,600
As guys, we will absolutely
develop really poor habits that

1863
02:03:53,600 --> 02:03:56,960
don't lead us anywhere except
misery, right?

1864
02:03:58,040 --> 02:04:01,680
But like a garden, if we tend to
that, if we root those things

1865
02:04:01,680 --> 02:04:05,960
out, they may come back from
time to time.

1866
02:04:06,560 --> 02:04:11,760
But once you subdue it and you
got a handle on it, it all gets

1867
02:04:11,760 --> 02:04:13,840
easier to spot.
You know, they stick out a

1868
02:04:13,840 --> 02:04:16,280
little more.
And I think it's part of that,

1869
02:04:16,280 --> 02:04:20,120
right?
It's it's, it's amazing to me

1870
02:04:20,120 --> 02:04:24,320
that a lot of the covenants that
we take in the temple and even

1871
02:04:24,320 --> 02:04:29,040
the oath of vengeance is in some
ways a, a civilizing principle,

1872
02:04:29,320 --> 02:04:31,800
right?
It's it's you're, you're no

1873
02:04:31,800 --> 02:04:37,760
longer seeking warlords type
planish feel the Mccoy's

1874
02:04:37,760 --> 02:04:39,040
vengeance.
You're just going to turn it

1875
02:04:39,040 --> 02:04:40,480
over to God and let God deal
with it.

1876
02:04:41,240 --> 02:04:47,560
Right.
And so likewise, when with these

1877
02:04:47,560 --> 02:04:49,920
principles that were taught in
the gospel and especially the

1878
02:04:49,920 --> 02:04:54,080
covenants we'd make, they're
designed to help us be more than

1879
02:04:54,120 --> 02:04:57,720
the natural man, right?
And root out some of those

1880
02:04:57,720 --> 02:05:00,000
things.
So while definitely, you know,

1881
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:04,560
it does allude to a man going
out and making his way in life,

1882
02:05:04,680 --> 02:05:08,680
right And and supporting his
family, I think it's also

1883
02:05:08,680 --> 02:05:11,920
talking about the spiritual
aspect, Your spiritual thorns

1884
02:05:11,920 --> 02:05:14,960
and thistles, your spiritual
noxious weed.

1885
02:05:15,400 --> 02:05:19,600
Or maybe if you were to talk to
my wife, my obnoxious weeds,

1886
02:05:21,120 --> 02:05:24,120
you've got, you've got to,
you've got to root those things

1887
02:05:24,120 --> 02:05:26,680
out.
You've got to, to to tame it and

1888
02:05:26,680 --> 02:05:33,040
bring it into to under control,
right, or else or else you're

1889
02:05:33,040 --> 02:05:35,600
you're forever suffering.
So.

1890
02:05:36,920 --> 02:05:41,240
But yeah, like what man is going
to go to tons of effort to like

1891
02:05:41,240 --> 02:05:45,800
grow food and have a productive
if he doesn't have a family?

1892
02:05:45,800 --> 02:05:48,040
Like it's it's rare.
I'm not saying it never happens,

1893
02:05:48,040 --> 02:05:53,520
but it's pretty rare like.
Oh dude, dude, my my wife.

1894
02:05:53,720 --> 02:05:57,000
Most men would just sit on the
couch, eat Doritos and watch

1895
02:05:57,000 --> 02:06:01,920
football if they dude dude.
OK, so I'm going to share a

1896
02:06:01,920 --> 02:06:06,440
story here and this this this
was one before Tanya came into

1897
02:06:06,440 --> 02:06:09,040
the family.
My oldest daughter had just had

1898
02:06:09,040 --> 02:06:11,800
her first baby.
Amber went up plenty early

1899
02:06:11,800 --> 02:06:14,520
because it was during COVID and
she was worried about, you know,

1900
02:06:14,520 --> 02:06:16,760
not being able to be there and
that sort of thing.

1901
02:06:17,120 --> 02:06:19,040
So I was like, look, everybody's
healthy now.

1902
02:06:19,080 --> 02:06:22,040
Just get up there.
I'll be up there in four weeks

1903
02:06:22,200 --> 02:06:25,440
behind you, right?
So for four weeks, it was me,

1904
02:06:25,800 --> 02:06:31,160
my, my, my two oldest, my two
younger boys and my middle

1905
02:06:31,160 --> 02:06:37,120
daughter at home.
And all of a sudden I get this

1906
02:06:37,120 --> 02:06:42,280
message from Amber saying I need
to do shop, I need to go grocery

1907
02:06:42,280 --> 02:06:44,120
shopping, but I need to do a
better job.

1908
02:06:44,640 --> 02:06:47,800
Well, my daughter had taken a
picture of the fridge and all

1909
02:06:47,800 --> 02:06:51,400
that's in the fridge, it's like
steak, eggs, low calorie

1910
02:06:51,400 --> 02:06:54,560
Gatorade, and that's about it,
right?

1911
02:06:54,560 --> 02:06:57,640
And I'm like, I'm not seeing the
problem right now.

1912
02:06:58,280 --> 02:07:01,880
Truth, truth be told, the
kitchen table was full of gun

1913
02:07:01,880 --> 02:07:04,840
oil, right?
And protein powder.

1914
02:07:05,120 --> 02:07:08,200
And, you know, all my stuff for
the gym, all my supplements,

1915
02:07:08,200 --> 02:07:12,720
right?
And, and like, it made me think

1916
02:07:12,720 --> 02:07:15,560
like, if I was left to my own
devices, I wouldn't have nice

1917
02:07:15,560 --> 02:07:18,600
furniture.
I'd have like cinder blocks and

1918
02:07:18,600 --> 02:07:22,600
plywood with a few pillows to,
to make it comfortable, right?

1919
02:07:22,960 --> 02:07:25,160
As long as I had ESPN and I'm
good.

1920
02:07:26,360 --> 02:07:29,240
But that's not a complete man,
right?

1921
02:07:29,320 --> 02:07:31,040
That's that's not a whole
person.

1922
02:07:31,680 --> 02:07:34,640
And far below your, your
potential, your privileges.

1923
02:07:34,640 --> 02:07:38,000
And yeah, you're not do you're
not feeling the measure of your

1924
02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:40,720
creation.
We were meant for more than

1925
02:07:40,720 --> 02:07:43,560
that.
It I always find it interesting

1926
02:07:43,560 --> 02:07:50,360
that when when Isaac sends out a
bride for to to find a bride for

1927
02:07:50,360 --> 02:07:53,200
for, I think it's Jacob.
Is it Jacob?

1928
02:07:54,520 --> 02:07:56,240
Jake and Rachel.
No, it's more like I think

1929
02:07:56,240 --> 02:07:59,120
Abraham sends out his servant to
find a bride for Isaac.

1930
02:07:59,440 --> 02:08:00,640
But OK, that's what I'm
thinking.

1931
02:08:01,120 --> 02:08:04,880
You get the feeling like Isaac's
not doing a whole bunch right?

1932
02:08:04,880 --> 02:08:08,760
Like, if you read that, like,
it's almost like Isaac's just

1933
02:08:08,760 --> 02:08:10,720
chilling in his dad's tent,
right?

1934
02:08:11,000 --> 02:08:13,800
Yeah.
And it's not until he he gets a

1935
02:08:13,800 --> 02:08:18,440
wife that all of a sudden
Isaac's like, oh, I better get

1936
02:08:18,440 --> 02:08:20,280
up and I better do something
right.

1937
02:08:20,640 --> 02:08:23,040
Right.
And that's healthy, that's good.

1938
02:08:23,040 --> 02:08:26,120
That's part of that growing
process, that maturation, right?

1939
02:08:26,680 --> 02:08:30,720
And, and as, as he faced some of
the same things his father did

1940
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:33,880
or different challenges, I'm
sure he looked back at the

1941
02:08:33,880 --> 02:08:39,280
marriage he had with, with Sarah
and, and possibly as otherwise

1942
02:08:39,280 --> 02:08:41,280
I'm like, oh, that's how that's
done, right?

1943
02:08:43,120 --> 02:08:44,880
There's beauty in the journey
too.

1944
02:08:44,880 --> 02:08:50,560
That's the other thing I'll tell
people, dude, I look back at all

1945
02:08:50,560 --> 02:08:54,280
the fights, all the
disagreements, and we still

1946
02:08:54,280 --> 02:08:58,120
stuck it out.
And we laugh about them now,

1947
02:08:58,240 --> 02:09:00,480
right?
We just and we watch our kids go

1948
02:09:00,480 --> 02:09:03,400
through it and we're like, you
know, I remember I told my

1949
02:09:03,400 --> 02:09:07,240
oldest boy, yeah, it sucks in
the moment, but don't just rush

1950
02:09:07,240 --> 02:09:10,520
through this, right?
There's there's good times to be

1951
02:09:10,520 --> 02:09:15,240
had here.
Marriage is ultimately designed

1952
02:09:15,240 --> 02:09:18,720
to bring us joy, right?
And if it's not bringing us joy,

1953
02:09:18,720 --> 02:09:22,280
we're doing it wrong.
There's few things I'll ever say

1954
02:09:22,280 --> 02:09:24,920
concretely because quite
frankly, I just don't know

1955
02:09:24,920 --> 02:09:28,240
enough to speak that concretely.
But I will say this.

1956
02:09:29,480 --> 02:09:32,560
If marriage isn't bringing you
joy, you're doing it wrong.

1957
02:09:35,400 --> 02:09:39,280
I wouldn't trade the time I've
spent with either of my wives

1958
02:09:39,280 --> 02:09:42,680
for anything in the world.
And as much as I feel the

1959
02:09:42,680 --> 02:09:45,520
responsibility of this podcast
and all my other

1960
02:09:45,880 --> 02:09:49,000
responsibilities, they come
first, always and forever.

1961
02:09:49,960 --> 02:09:51,680
And that's really where my joy
is AT.

1962
02:09:53,240 --> 02:09:58,200
And, and I think we have to, if,
if as fundamentalists, we are

1963
02:09:58,200 --> 02:10:03,720
trying to, to show that these
can be happy, healthy

1964
02:10:03,720 --> 02:10:09,600
relationships, whether they be
monogamist or polygamist, we

1965
02:10:09,600 --> 02:10:12,600
have got to have half the happy
and healthy relationships.

1966
02:10:12,600 --> 02:10:16,280
They can't just be ones where
we're saddled together.

1967
02:10:17,240 --> 02:10:21,360
Yes.
So dude, anything else you

1968
02:10:21,360 --> 02:10:25,680
wanted to cover?
Well, we're kind of into it.

1969
02:10:26,360 --> 02:10:30,040
There is one other thing.
Yeah, about the law of chastity.

1970
02:10:30,600 --> 02:10:35,040
And in Mormon culture in in
particular, I mean, this is not

1971
02:10:35,040 --> 02:10:38,880
unique.
It's or it's not it's not only

1972
02:10:38,880 --> 02:10:44,080
Mormons that deal with this.
It's it's kind of common, but it

1973
02:10:44,080 --> 02:10:47,080
is very prevalent in in
Mormonism.

1974
02:10:47,840 --> 02:10:50,440
And since we're talking about
the law of chastity, I think we

1975
02:10:50,440 --> 02:10:58,240
might as well cover it modesty.
You can you can cut this later

1976
02:10:58,240 --> 02:11:00,040
if you if it's too controversial
but you're.

1977
02:11:00,120 --> 02:11:03,560
Good.
So there's no scriptures

1978
02:11:04,360 --> 02:11:10,320
anywhere that talk about modesty
or they command modesty and

1979
02:11:10,440 --> 02:11:13,480
that's kind of strange.
Well, I guess I'd need to

1980
02:11:13,480 --> 02:11:15,400
qualify that.
So I'm going to share my screen

1981
02:11:15,400 --> 02:11:22,880
because I going back to this
first Timothy chapter 2 verse 9

1982
02:11:23,680 --> 02:11:30,880
is it does use the word modesty
and so you can go through their

1983
02:11:31,040 --> 02:11:33,840
various translations.
The NIVI also want the women to

1984
02:11:33,840 --> 02:11:37,600
dress modestly with decency and
propriety, adorning themselves

1985
02:11:37,840 --> 02:11:41,000
not with elaborate hairstyles or
gold or pearls or expensive

1986
02:11:41,000 --> 02:11:44,280
clothes.
In living English King James, I

1987
02:11:44,280 --> 02:11:48,440
wanted to in like manner also
that women adorn themselves in

1988
02:11:48,440 --> 02:11:52,360
modest apparel with shameface
sickness and sobriety, not with

1989
02:11:52,360 --> 02:11:55,200
braided hair or gold or pearls
or costly array.

1990
02:11:56,720 --> 02:12:02,720
And so like the the there's
various other translations.

1991
02:12:03,160 --> 02:12:05,840
This is Bible hub, which is kind
of like it has the strong's

1992
02:12:05,840 --> 02:12:09,160
concordance and it has the
source Greek in here.

1993
02:12:09,480 --> 02:12:14,600
And so so this is the the Greek
likewise.

1994
02:12:14,600 --> 02:12:20,200
And then it just goes word by
word and it, and what it says is

1995
02:12:20,200 --> 02:12:23,920
it doesn't actually say modest
as if you, if you'll, if you can

1996
02:12:23,920 --> 02:12:29,360
see the screen right here, it
says Cosmio, which is

1997
02:12:29,480 --> 02:12:32,280
respectable, is a better
translation.

1998
02:12:32,280 --> 02:12:34,760
Now the, the English
translators, you know, the King

1999
02:12:34,760 --> 02:12:39,520
James people and folk, you know,
they, they chose.

2000
02:12:39,760 --> 02:12:44,280
And it's not like it's not like
modesty is a bad choice, right?

2001
02:12:45,080 --> 02:12:49,600
Right.
But it, we've culturally built

2002
02:12:49,600 --> 02:12:55,880
up an entire tradition and
culture that, you know, if you

2003
02:12:55,880 --> 02:12:59,320
don't, if your sleeves don't
cover the shoulder or if you,

2004
02:12:59,400 --> 02:13:03,520
you know, if we, we just create
kind of essentially pharisaical

2005
02:13:03,520 --> 02:13:09,680
standards of dress.
And, you know, I welcome if, if,

2006
02:13:09,680 --> 02:13:13,480
if anybody listening to this can
find any scriptures that do

2007
02:13:13,480 --> 02:13:17,880
command actual modesty and it
specifies like, you know, to the

2008
02:13:17,880 --> 02:13:21,440
wrist sleeves or to the ankles
or, you know, all that.

2009
02:13:21,840 --> 02:13:26,360
Like, you know, certainly if, if
we are wearing certain clothing,

2010
02:13:27,240 --> 02:13:32,000
right, there's certain patterns
that are cut that, you know,

2011
02:13:32,040 --> 02:13:35,720
that I think to preserve the,
the sacredness of, of the

2012
02:13:35,720 --> 02:13:39,320
symbols, symbolism of that type
of clothing in a ceremonial

2013
02:13:39,320 --> 02:13:42,920
setting, like, you know, temple
clothing and, and when kind of

2014
02:13:42,920 --> 02:13:48,160
administering or officiating in
certain ordinances, like in that

2015
02:13:48,160 --> 02:13:53,920
context, absolutely the, there
is a standard because of a

2016
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:59,800
specific type of clothing.
But outside of that setting,

2017
02:14:00,520 --> 02:14:04,800
there are no scriptures.
There are no, there's no actual

2018
02:14:05,200 --> 02:14:11,200
proof that this is something
that the Lord requires such, you

2019
02:14:11,200 --> 02:14:15,320
know, X number of square inches
of skin must be covered on, on

2020
02:14:15,320 --> 02:14:17,080
the human body.
Like that's not there.

2021
02:14:17,640 --> 02:14:23,240
And you know, the, the, the
reason I think that this is kind

2022
02:14:23,240 --> 02:14:27,640
of important is we traditions
can be a good thing.

2023
02:14:28,680 --> 02:14:35,080
And, but traditions can also get
in the way of doing what's,

2024
02:14:35,240 --> 02:14:38,960
what's best and what's right.
And, and I guess just briefly,

2025
02:14:38,960 --> 02:14:42,920
one other thing to just point
out is when the Angel Moroni

2026
02:14:42,920 --> 02:14:48,040
appeared to Joseph in his
bedroom, remember what he was

2027
02:14:48,040 --> 02:14:52,600
wearing?
Yeah, it was a, it was a kind of

2028
02:14:52,600 --> 02:14:56,880
a tunic, right, That came down
to just just past the elbows I

2029
02:14:56,880 --> 02:14:59,200
think is what Joseph said, if I
remember correctly.

2030
02:14:59,200 --> 02:15:03,600
I could be wrong on that and
just above the ankles if I

2031
02:15:03,600 --> 02:15:09,360
remember, but I could be wrong.
And and also the front was open

2032
02:15:09,640 --> 02:15:11,000
so that he could see his
breasts.

2033
02:15:11,080 --> 02:15:12,680
It it says I could see into his
bosom.

2034
02:15:13,200 --> 02:15:18,240
Right.
And, and so I guess just, I

2035
02:15:18,240 --> 02:15:21,280
don't want to be, I know this is
controversial and this is

2036
02:15:21,280 --> 02:15:23,800
something especially amongst
fundamentalists and even

2037
02:15:23,800 --> 02:15:30,400
mainstream LDS, like modesty is,
is so like it's a sacred cow in,

2038
02:15:30,720 --> 02:15:34,800
in, in many cases.
And I'm not trying to offend

2039
02:15:34,800 --> 02:15:37,440
anybody.
So I, I, I'm, you know, that is

2040
02:15:37,440 --> 02:15:41,400
not my intention here, but I
think it is quite interesting to

2041
02:15:41,400 --> 02:15:44,880
make some of these observations.
And if anybody listening can

2042
02:15:44,880 --> 02:15:48,480
find a scripture that does
command modesty and defines it

2043
02:15:48,480 --> 02:15:54,520
as not respectability.
And you know, modesty as in, oh,

2044
02:15:54,640 --> 02:15:58,800
this is the I dose modesty,
modesty or awe.

2045
02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:05,760
But it's it's talking about the
oh, you know what?

2046
02:16:05,760 --> 02:16:07,160
I didn't Scroll down far enough,
Dave.

2047
02:16:07,400 --> 02:16:14,360
So it does have this Greek word
for idose and it and it talks

2048
02:16:14,360 --> 02:16:19,200
about it being discreet,
shamefaced in this self-control.

2049
02:16:19,440 --> 02:16:23,840
But again, it's more of about
not the the number of square

2050
02:16:23,840 --> 02:16:25,520
inches of skin that's being
covered.

2051
02:16:25,840 --> 02:16:30,120
It's more about the, the
attitude or the the spirit in

2052
02:16:30,120 --> 02:16:32,520
which the clothing is being
worn, right.

2053
02:16:32,520 --> 02:16:38,000
So, and, and you know, and it
also talks about basically if,

2054
02:16:38,000 --> 02:16:40,000
if we're going to take that hard
line stance, I guess we

2055
02:16:40,000 --> 02:16:45,840
shouldn't ever wear jewelry or
braid our hair or, you know, all

2056
02:16:45,840 --> 02:16:49,320
of these or, you know,
everything needs to be cheap,

2057
02:16:49,320 --> 02:16:54,200
you know.
So I do want to just submit for

2058
02:16:54,200 --> 02:16:59,200
consideration the possibility
that, you know, maybe we should

2059
02:16:59,200 --> 02:17:03,320
be more concerned with our
demeanor and the spirit with

2060
02:17:03,320 --> 02:17:07,320
which we conduct ourselves than
the, the number of square inches

2061
02:17:07,320 --> 02:17:11,000
of skin that are covered or not.
So.

2062
02:17:11,559 --> 02:17:14,680
You know, I think there's so
much that goes into modesty,

2063
02:17:14,680 --> 02:17:16,959
right?
And, and I do believe it's like

2064
02:17:16,959 --> 02:17:20,120
you were saying more than just
what how many square inches are,

2065
02:17:20,120 --> 02:17:22,840
are covered.
Certainly within Mormonism, when

2066
02:17:22,840 --> 02:17:25,879
you do take on yourself certain
covenants in the temple that you

2067
02:17:25,879 --> 02:17:27,320
know, there is the garment,
right?

2068
02:17:27,719 --> 02:17:32,080
And, and you know it, it, it
should remain covered, I think,

2069
02:17:32,520 --> 02:17:34,600
right.
But at the same time, if

2070
02:17:34,600 --> 02:17:37,160
somebody's out working in the
garden and they roll up their

2071
02:17:37,160 --> 02:17:42,240
sleeves and you're offended by
that, you may, that may be a you

2072
02:17:42,240 --> 02:17:46,000
problem.
And, and it needs to be checked,

2073
02:17:46,160 --> 02:17:49,680
right?
I, I cuz look, I have seen where

2074
02:17:49,680 --> 02:17:53,080
people got really judgy.
I remember I was still in the

2075
02:17:53,080 --> 02:18:01,920
LDS church and we were having a
leadership meeting and I walked

2076
02:18:01,920 --> 02:18:07,520
in and there was a few people I
won't even name, name the

2077
02:18:07,520 --> 02:18:11,639
callings because I don't want to
tip anybody off.

2078
02:18:12,240 --> 02:18:16,799
But they basically said, I just,
I don't think sister so and so

2079
02:18:16,799 --> 02:18:20,040
was wearing her garments and,
and someone looked at me when

2080
02:18:20,040 --> 02:18:22,000
they said that.
And I'm like, you know what?

2081
02:18:22,799 --> 02:18:24,600
Their underwear is not my
concern.

2082
02:18:26,879 --> 02:18:31,400
Not, not, not here, not now and
hopefully not ever, right.

2083
02:18:31,400 --> 02:18:33,840
And so that's, that's between
them and God.

2084
02:18:33,840 --> 02:18:35,120
And I'm going to leave it right
there.

2085
02:18:35,520 --> 02:18:41,080
Those are those are things that,
you know, I am like the the

2086
02:18:41,080 --> 02:18:43,760
family has to to answer to God
on that.

2087
02:18:44,360 --> 02:18:46,600
The individual has to answer to
God on that.

2088
02:18:46,600 --> 02:18:49,320
And I'm just not going to jump
into it, right?

2089
02:18:49,879 --> 02:18:55,799
Because what I might consider
modest, somebody else could say

2090
02:18:55,799 --> 02:18:59,840
I overdo it, right?
And so I just leave it to each

2091
02:19:00,080 --> 02:19:05,680
each person's discretion.
But yeah, I'm not into, you

2092
02:19:05,680 --> 02:19:07,719
know, being the underwear
police.

2093
02:19:07,719 --> 02:19:12,240
I have no desire.
Right, well, and just the, the

2094
02:19:12,520 --> 02:19:16,400
focus, because when we have,
when we define modesty as

2095
02:19:16,719 --> 02:19:21,639
certain types of clothing and
covering certain, you know, you

2096
02:19:21,639 --> 02:19:25,160
know, certain parts of the skin
that they can't be see the light

2097
02:19:25,160 --> 02:19:29,160
of day and have to be always
covered it, it breeds a culture

2098
02:19:29,160 --> 02:19:34,719
of outward focus rather than the
inward commitment.

2099
02:19:34,719 --> 02:19:38,200
And so I think that is important
because like, yes, there are

2100
02:19:38,200 --> 02:19:41,440
ways to break the law of
chastity outwardly, but there's

2101
02:19:41,440 --> 02:19:45,400
also ways to break it inwardly.
Absolutely those and, and and

2102
02:19:45,600 --> 02:19:48,080
we're, we're very imperfect
judges, like you were just

2103
02:19:48,080 --> 02:19:52,080
saying about like the, the, the,
the choices that people make.

2104
02:19:52,480 --> 02:20:00,760
And so I just want to, I guess,
encourage us to focus more on

2105
02:20:00,920 --> 02:20:06,080
the heart than.
The outward appearance.

2106
02:20:06,080 --> 02:20:09,200
Right, Yeah, No, I agree.
I agree.

2107
02:20:09,200 --> 02:20:11,800
And just give each other grace,
right?

2108
02:20:12,440 --> 02:20:17,440
This, this thing's hard enough
without without having people

2109
02:20:17,440 --> 02:20:21,280
pile on or or talk talk junk
behind somebody else's back.

2110
02:20:21,840 --> 02:20:25,080
Yep.
Just worry about yourselves in

2111
02:20:25,080 --> 02:20:29,280
that department and everything
else I think will fall into fall

2112
02:20:29,280 --> 02:20:32,080
into place.
But I mean, certainly I'm not a

2113
02:20:32,080 --> 02:20:33,560
guy.
Look, I'll be the first one to

2114
02:20:33,560 --> 02:20:36,200
admit I'm not, I'm not a guy who
wears my garments when I go to

2115
02:20:36,200 --> 02:20:39,360
the gym, right?
In some ways I feel it would be

2116
02:20:39,360 --> 02:20:42,840
disrespectful because I sweat
like a stuck pig when I work

2117
02:20:42,840 --> 02:20:46,640
out.
So don't, don't want to defile

2118
02:20:46,640 --> 02:20:50,080
those that way.
And, and you know, just use the

2119
02:20:50,080 --> 02:20:52,520
spirit.
The Lord will let you know what,

2120
02:20:52,560 --> 02:20:54,520
what you should do in those
situations.

2121
02:20:54,520 --> 02:20:56,120
Don't.
Don't look for someone to police

2122
02:20:56,120 --> 02:20:58,840
that because people have been
all too happy to do that for

2123
02:20:58,840 --> 02:21:00,960
you.
Yeah, and, and like I say,

2124
02:21:00,960 --> 02:21:03,760
traditions can be good things,
and especially when they're

2125
02:21:03,760 --> 02:21:08,040
sincere.
But as the as the Pharisees so

2126
02:21:08,080 --> 02:21:12,920
amply demonstrated, they can
also cause tons of problems.

2127
02:21:12,920 --> 02:21:16,960
Absolutely, Absolutely.
There's a few other things I

2128
02:21:16,960 --> 02:21:20,760
wanted to kind of touch on with
regard to the pre mortal

2129
02:21:20,760 --> 02:21:25,560
covenants and agency because,
you know, I will say this Pre

2130
02:21:25,560 --> 02:21:30,160
mortal covenants.
But as far as marriage goes, I

2131
02:21:30,160 --> 02:21:34,640
think we I think there is a
pretty good scriptural case, but

2132
02:21:34,640 --> 02:21:37,400
I don't know if it applies to
every single person.

2133
02:21:37,800 --> 02:21:41,520
Like, you know, there's a lot of
people who probably don't care

2134
02:21:41,520 --> 02:21:44,440
about the gospel.
I don't know if if God would

2135
02:21:44,440 --> 02:21:48,440
have imposed it on people that
were just more interested in

2136
02:21:48,480 --> 02:21:51,360
kind of having a good time and
having some experiences and

2137
02:21:51,360 --> 02:21:56,040
having fun.
I do think though, that that

2138
02:21:56,040 --> 02:21:59,880
there are certainly instances
like the Scriptures, Alma

2139
02:21:59,880 --> 02:22:05,920
chapter 13, Abraham, it talks
about like high priests ordained

2140
02:22:05,920 --> 02:22:08,360
before the foundation of the
world and like the noble and

2141
02:22:08,360 --> 02:22:11,440
great ones, right.
And one thing that I believe

2142
02:22:11,440 --> 02:22:17,720
that I think we know is that if
you don't know, then then then

2143
02:22:18,160 --> 02:22:22,080
this is education for you.
But there are certain that the

2144
02:22:22,080 --> 02:22:25,720
fullness of the priesthood
cannot be held by a single man,

2145
02:22:26,080 --> 02:22:29,760
you know.
And so I think that there had to

2146
02:22:29,760 --> 02:22:32,960
have been certain, you know,
maybe, maybe it's not every

2147
02:22:32,960 --> 02:22:38,360
single person, but at least some
were foreordained and received

2148
02:22:38,360 --> 02:22:40,960
the priesthood before this life
and all of that.

2149
02:22:41,520 --> 02:22:46,320
And so when those types of
situations are in play, it is

2150
02:22:46,320 --> 02:22:49,760
important to, you know, find the
person that you made those

2151
02:22:49,760 --> 02:22:52,760
covenants with.
But I do want to kind of temper

2152
02:22:52,760 --> 02:22:54,840
that because it needs to be
qualified.

2153
02:22:55,160 --> 02:22:59,800
And the reason I say that is
there's people that I know that

2154
02:23:00,080 --> 02:23:04,480
I go to church with and that
have talked about how that

2155
02:23:04,560 --> 02:23:08,400
doctrine kind of stressed him
out, you know, as a teenager,

2156
02:23:08,400 --> 02:23:10,720
like, oh, shoot, who am I
supposed to marry?

2157
02:23:10,720 --> 02:23:13,640
And, and it became a super
emphasized thing.

2158
02:23:14,160 --> 02:23:18,440
And so I want to kind of temper
that and just say, look, what we

2159
02:23:18,440 --> 02:23:22,720
need to seek is not necessarily
like the, the person that you

2160
02:23:22,720 --> 02:23:25,720
made covenants with.
I mean, if you did, then pray

2161
02:23:25,720 --> 02:23:28,320
for Heavenly Father to, to give
you that guidance and

2162
02:23:28,320 --> 02:23:32,880
inspiration to find that person.
But since I don't want to, I

2163
02:23:32,880 --> 02:23:36,520
don't want to just like make a
definitive, you know, statement

2164
02:23:36,520 --> 02:23:40,200
and say that every single person
had those, had those premoral

2165
02:23:40,200 --> 02:23:44,320
covenants made.
And but here's the thing.

2166
02:23:44,320 --> 02:23:47,120
Even if they did, they're not
unconditional.

2167
02:23:47,800 --> 02:23:50,400
Right you.
Know there's agency, God's not

2168
02:23:50,400 --> 02:23:54,720
going to take away her agency if
if so, so say a you know, young

2169
02:23:54,720 --> 02:23:57,560
man or you know, a pre mortal
male spirit and a pre mortal

2170
02:23:57,560 --> 02:24:00,360
female spirit.
Even if they did make a covenant

2171
02:24:00,360 --> 02:24:06,040
before this life.
You know, if the young man after

2172
02:24:06,040 --> 02:24:10,200
he's born and he's in mortality,
chooses a different path, that

2173
02:24:10,320 --> 02:24:13,720
female spirit that you know, if
presuming she made pre mortal

2174
02:24:13,720 --> 02:24:17,280
covenants with him, she's not
like stuck with him.

2175
02:24:18,040 --> 02:24:21,640
No, God's not gonna make force
her to be with this.

2176
02:24:21,960 --> 02:24:25,040
You know, dummy or you know,
this, this person who has chosen

2177
02:24:25,040 --> 02:24:28,200
a different path.
It's not it's not a consignment.

2178
02:24:28,200 --> 02:24:32,840
It's not like a a sentencing of
OK, this is your fate now you're

2179
02:24:32,840 --> 02:24:36,920
you're stuck with him.
And so like, same thing would

2180
02:24:36,920 --> 02:24:41,960
apply for a young female, like
if, if a young woman comes to

2181
02:24:41,960 --> 02:24:44,920
this world and chooses a
different path, the young man is

2182
02:24:44,920 --> 02:24:48,480
not stuck and bound to her no
matter what.

2183
02:24:49,120 --> 02:24:51,720
So that's what I really wanted
to qualify that.

2184
02:24:53,120 --> 02:24:57,160
And because of agency, I think
this is yet another good case

2185
02:24:57,160 --> 02:25:01,080
for why plural marriage makes
sense as an eternal principle.

2186
02:25:01,080 --> 02:25:05,400
And it's just a, a practical way
to help reconcile the fact of

2187
02:25:05,400 --> 02:25:09,680
agency with, you know, the
infinite foreknowledge and plan

2188
02:25:09,680 --> 02:25:15,480
of God.
And that is, I mean, just on

2189
02:25:15,480 --> 02:25:17,240
average.
Dave, do you think that

2190
02:25:17,760 --> 02:25:23,120
generally speaking, young women
or young men leave the church or

2191
02:25:23,120 --> 02:25:25,760
abandoned their faith more more
frequently?

2192
02:25:27,960 --> 02:25:30,680
I'd have to say young men, but
I'm willing to be wrong there.

2193
02:25:31,480 --> 02:25:34,480
I would definitely say young
men, you know, you, you go to

2194
02:25:34,480 --> 02:25:37,480
especially in a LDS.
So that's my background.

2195
02:25:37,480 --> 02:25:40,080
I grew up, I went to the singles
ward, dude, like singles wards

2196
02:25:40,080 --> 02:25:43,960
in the LDS Church.
It's like predominantly,

2197
02:25:43,960 --> 02:25:48,040
predominantly female, like
probably the three girls per guy

2198
02:25:48,040 --> 02:25:52,720
that's active.
And you know, you, there's you

2199
02:25:52,720 --> 02:25:56,000
could hypothesize, you could
speculate on why that might or

2200
02:25:56,000 --> 02:25:58,680
might not be.
But but I think that regardless

2201
02:25:58,680 --> 02:26:02,320
of cause and effect like that,
that is just kind of how it is.

2202
02:26:02,720 --> 02:26:09,560
And so when perhaps inevitably
more young men choose a

2203
02:26:09,560 --> 02:26:13,000
different path than the young
than the young women and their

2204
02:26:13,000 --> 02:26:17,520
spiritual partners are left
without, you know, these these

2205
02:26:17,520 --> 02:26:21,440
young women are left without a
male partner that they had made

2206
02:26:21,440 --> 02:26:26,240
pre mortal covenants with.
To me that again provides for

2207
02:26:26,240 --> 02:26:30,720
these daughters of God, these
young women by providing for you

2208
02:26:30,720 --> 02:26:34,560
know, if because of every young
good, every good woman that

2209
02:26:34,560 --> 02:26:36,120
wants to be married to a good
man.

2210
02:26:36,120 --> 02:26:40,520
If there's less good men around
to go around than good women,

2211
02:26:40,960 --> 02:26:46,840
then either God is partial and
preference giving preference to

2212
02:26:46,840 --> 02:26:51,120
certain of his daughters over
others, or plural marriage just

2213
02:26:51,120 --> 02:26:52,440
solves it all.
So.

2214
02:26:52,440 --> 02:26:55,120
Right.
You hit on a couple of point

2215
02:26:55,520 --> 02:26:58,560
important things there, right?
One of them is this.

2216
02:26:59,840 --> 02:27:02,840
And I think this is where it
becomes super important to

2217
02:27:02,840 --> 02:27:06,840
understand the difference
between predestination and

2218
02:27:06,840 --> 02:27:11,200
preordination, right?
Preordination means, yes, you

2219
02:27:11,200 --> 02:27:16,760
were, you were, you were chosen
to do this thing, right?

2220
02:27:17,760 --> 02:27:20,120
But that doesn't mean it's going
to happen, right?

2221
02:27:20,440 --> 02:27:22,560
That means you still have
agency.

2222
02:27:22,560 --> 02:27:25,760
It's up to you to, to fill, to
fill those covenants.

2223
02:27:26,280 --> 02:27:31,360
Now having said that,
predestination says no, this is

2224
02:27:31,360 --> 02:27:34,760
going to happen regardless, no
matter what, where where

2225
02:27:34,760 --> 02:27:39,040
Mormonism relies heavily upon
free agency, the ability to

2226
02:27:39,040 --> 02:27:44,040
choose this idea that that that
you're just saddled with

2227
02:27:44,040 --> 02:27:47,760
somebody despite them being a
dirtbag or whatever just doesn't

2228
02:27:47,760 --> 02:27:50,120
hold water inside Mormon
theology.

2229
02:27:50,760 --> 02:27:56,280
The to your point about there
being more men than more women

2230
02:27:56,280 --> 02:28:00,320
than men in, you know, that keep
their faith.

2231
02:28:00,320 --> 02:28:03,800
There was just an article here a
few years back from, I want to

2232
02:28:03,800 --> 02:28:07,760
say it was either the Tribune or
Deseret News that was basically

2233
02:28:07,760 --> 02:28:12,040
talking about the fact that
women have less marrying

2234
02:28:12,040 --> 02:28:14,840
opportunities today in the
church than what it used to.

2235
02:28:14,840 --> 02:28:18,640
That there was already
predominantly more active women

2236
02:28:18,840 --> 02:28:25,680
than active men in church, which
subsequently and not my words,

2237
02:28:26,120 --> 02:28:30,480
the words of a member of a state
presidency and also a member,

2238
02:28:30,840 --> 02:28:33,920
someone who was high up in
Bonneville communications.

2239
02:28:34,640 --> 02:28:38,040
Explain to me that's why they
changed that one covenant in the

2240
02:28:38,040 --> 02:28:41,680
temple, right between husband
and wife, Because, you know, for

2241
02:28:41,680 --> 02:28:44,280
the first time ever, there was
more single people than married

2242
02:28:44,280 --> 02:28:48,360
people in the church.
And so I'm like, OK, but maybe

2243
02:28:48,360 --> 02:28:51,720
ask the question of why they're
not marrying and resolve that

2244
02:28:51,720 --> 02:28:53,200
rather than try to change a
covenant.

2245
02:28:53,200 --> 02:28:55,720
But regardless, I think we're
already there, Taylor.

2246
02:28:55,960 --> 02:28:57,920
Or stop forbidding plural
marriage.

2247
02:28:57,960 --> 02:29:00,200
I mean, I don't have the
reference right off the top of

2248
02:29:00,200 --> 02:29:02,520
my head, but in the New
Testament, I want to say

2249
02:29:02,520 --> 02:29:06,000
Corinthians, Paul is talking
about in the last days, there

2250
02:29:06,000 --> 02:29:09,320
she'll be, you know, all of
these terrible things and

2251
02:29:09,320 --> 02:29:14,200
forbidding to marry.
So that is that is on the table

2252
02:29:14,200 --> 02:29:16,440
there.
Unfortunately, I don't really

2253
02:29:16,440 --> 02:29:20,040
have high hopes that the that
the church will seriously

2254
02:29:20,040 --> 02:29:23,680
consider that as an option, even
though I think you and I would

2255
02:29:23,680 --> 02:29:25,680
agree they should for sure,
absolutely.

2256
02:29:26,560 --> 02:29:30,680
So going back to this concept
of, of foreordained or, or, you

2257
02:29:30,680 --> 02:29:37,160
know, pre mortal covenants for
marriage, you know, I, I want

2258
02:29:37,160 --> 02:29:42,800
to, I also want to say that yes,
people can make mistakes, but

2259
02:29:42,800 --> 02:29:47,880
they can be repented of.
So like say, say young man goes

2260
02:29:47,960 --> 02:29:52,200
off the path, you know, but then
sincerely repents like imagine

2261
02:29:52,200 --> 02:29:56,120
like an Alma the younger type of
a, an, a conversion story,

2262
02:29:56,120 --> 02:29:59,160
right?
So, so he gets to that point

2263
02:29:59,440 --> 02:30:04,200
where he's sincerely repenting
and wants to change.

2264
02:30:04,760 --> 02:30:11,160
Like God's not going to just
say, OK, well, you had your

2265
02:30:11,160 --> 02:30:15,080
chance and and it's over.
Like, no, it's he, he's going to

2266
02:30:15,080 --> 02:30:18,640
give an opportunity.
Now it may be it may be

2267
02:30:18,640 --> 02:30:20,960
different, say the young woman
that he had made premortal

2268
02:30:20,960 --> 02:30:24,600
covenants with, you know, if he
took until his late 20s,

2269
02:30:24,600 --> 02:30:27,160
thirties to kind of pull his
head out of the sand and figure

2270
02:30:27,160 --> 02:30:32,680
it out, like she may have had
literally like legitimate

2271
02:30:32,680 --> 02:30:36,920
revelation to marry some other
guy, you know, if she didn't

2272
02:30:36,960 --> 02:30:39,680
have that detour.
But just because people have a

2273
02:30:39,680 --> 02:30:44,280
detour doesn't mean that they're
like screwed forever.

2274
02:30:44,280 --> 02:30:49,120
Like I just I want to bring in
And so for perhaps rather than

2275
02:30:49,120 --> 02:30:53,120
focusing on necessarily like
foreordained or pre mortal

2276
02:30:53,120 --> 02:30:58,160
covenants for marriage, the best
way to maybe just bridge this is

2277
02:30:58,160 --> 02:31:02,240
to say we believe and we need to
focus and emphasize, especially

2278
02:31:02,240 --> 02:31:08,400
for young people, revelation
marriage decisions should be

2279
02:31:08,400 --> 02:31:11,960
guided by revelation.
And, you know, sometimes in an

2280
02:31:11,960 --> 02:31:17,640
ideal situation, people that
made covenants premortally stay

2281
02:31:17,640 --> 02:31:20,920
on the path and they find each
other and God brings them

2282
02:31:20,920 --> 02:31:24,040
together in this life and they
choose each other.

2283
02:31:24,040 --> 02:31:27,160
They exercise their agency and
all those principles are

2284
02:31:27,160 --> 02:31:31,080
respected.
And then they do it.

2285
02:31:31,240 --> 02:31:35,040
They, they get married and, and,
and like that's to me the ideal,

2286
02:31:36,240 --> 02:31:41,200
but it's not something that if
you get off track again, you're

2287
02:31:41,200 --> 02:31:45,520
not damaged goods.
Like all of us can repent and

2288
02:31:45,520 --> 02:31:48,960
until we're dead, like
literally, we have the

2289
02:31:48,960 --> 02:31:54,960
opportunity to repent every day
until we don't breathe and our

2290
02:31:54,960 --> 02:31:59,240
eyes closed forever.
So I just want to apply that and

2291
02:31:59,240 --> 02:32:02,240
just, you know, qualify that
quite a bit more.

2292
02:32:03,880 --> 02:32:06,840
Also, I wanted, you know, while
we're talking about agency,

2293
02:32:06,960 --> 02:32:08,800
let's talk about agency after
marriage.

2294
02:32:09,600 --> 02:32:13,040
OK, give me just a second here
because there's one other thing

2295
02:32:13,040 --> 02:32:16,120
I want to bring out here because
like you, I've heard this from

2296
02:32:16,600 --> 02:32:19,960
from some of our, our younger
members of of the Mormon

2297
02:32:19,960 --> 02:32:23,280
fundamentalist community here.
This idea of, Oh my God, get

2298
02:32:23,280 --> 02:32:24,440
this right.
I got to make sure it's the

2299
02:32:24,440 --> 02:32:26,720
person I make covenants with in
the pre existence.

2300
02:32:27,480 --> 02:32:33,120
Relax, relax, right?
Like you'll know when it's the

2301
02:32:33,120 --> 02:32:35,200
right person.
God will let you know.

2302
02:32:35,560 --> 02:32:39,480
Don't do not get your grip on
too tight about this or you're

2303
02:32:39,480 --> 02:32:41,760
gonna miss the magic of this
moment, right?

2304
02:32:42,160 --> 02:32:46,920
Just relax, enjoy the process,
and God will tell you who the

2305
02:32:46,920 --> 02:32:50,320
right person is.
And whether it's the right

2306
02:32:50,320 --> 02:32:53,760
person that you made pre medal
covenants with or if agency has

2307
02:32:54,480 --> 02:32:58,760
basically rearrange things and
God's will is a different, the

2308
02:32:58,920 --> 02:33:01,080
important thing is to get
revelation and do the right

2309
02:33:01,200 --> 02:33:04,480
thing, the right person for you
know, for the right reasons.

2310
02:33:04,480 --> 02:33:08,600
The right person is the one the
Lord tells you to marry. 100%.

2311
02:33:08,920 --> 02:33:13,760
Right, that's that should be the
the the don't worry about all of

2312
02:33:13,760 --> 02:33:16,800
the pre existent stuff
necessarily, right.

2313
02:33:17,160 --> 02:33:19,400
If if it is that person, you'll
know.

2314
02:33:19,840 --> 02:33:22,440
Yep.
If you don't, you probably won't

2315
02:33:22,440 --> 02:33:24,760
because God will tell you
otherwise.

2316
02:33:24,760 --> 02:33:29,080
So it it shouldn't even just
just don't miss the magic of the

2317
02:33:29,080 --> 02:33:31,240
moment, right?
I guess, is what I'm saying,

2318
02:33:31,240 --> 02:33:34,120
right?
And and and relax and and have a

2319
02:33:34,120 --> 02:33:35,560
little bit of fun.
You'll be all right.

2320
02:33:36,480 --> 02:33:38,720
Great, great point.
I I agree 100%.

2321
02:33:38,720 --> 02:33:42,760
So I, I do want to qualify here.
I do want to cover real quick,

2322
02:33:43,080 --> 02:33:46,800
even in situations after a
marriage has taken place.

2323
02:33:46,800 --> 02:33:52,640
So say people get married and
they get revelation, say maybe

2324
02:33:52,760 --> 02:33:54,680
it was ideal.
Maybe this is the person they

2325
02:33:54,680 --> 02:33:57,760
made pre mortal covenants with
and it worked out every all the

2326
02:33:57,760 --> 02:34:01,560
agency was respected and they
get married in the temple

2327
02:34:01,560 --> 02:34:03,920
performed the ceiling by the
proper authority.

2328
02:34:04,280 --> 02:34:08,600
Like you couldn't ask for a more
perfect storybook ending to this

2329
02:34:08,840 --> 02:34:14,560
this magic.
What happens if ten years in the

2330
02:34:14,600 --> 02:34:20,640
husband or wife says I'm done
and they they go off the the

2331
02:34:20,640 --> 02:34:23,680
path and they abandon the
marriage or the family or they

2332
02:34:23,680 --> 02:34:26,800
break their covenants, whatever
the case may be, the abuse could

2333
02:34:26,960 --> 02:34:30,520
you know, these situations can
happen where there's abuse like

2334
02:34:30,880 --> 02:34:36,120
that is the point at which we
need to also respect agency,

2335
02:34:36,840 --> 02:34:39,640
because even though you may
start on the right path and you

2336
02:34:39,640 --> 02:34:44,920
may marry the right person does
not meet mean that you are bound

2337
02:34:44,920 --> 02:34:48,360
to that person no matter what.
Now, I think like we were

2338
02:34:48,360 --> 02:34:51,720
talking about with the First
Corinthians chapter from Paul,

2339
02:34:52,200 --> 02:34:56,120
if somebody, especially in a
conversion, like if you're a

2340
02:34:56,120 --> 02:35:01,480
convert, you know, situation,
like if somebody starts off as a

2341
02:35:01,480 --> 02:35:04,680
Catholic and then they join the
Mormon, you know, and then they

2342
02:35:04,680 --> 02:35:06,560
gain a testimony of the
restoration and become a

2343
02:35:06,560 --> 02:35:09,040
fundamentalist.
But they're, but they married a

2344
02:35:09,040 --> 02:35:12,080
Catholic in the Catholic Church
and their spouse isn't coming

2345
02:35:12,080 --> 02:35:17,080
along on this ride to Mormonism.
That's OK that you don't divorce

2346
02:35:17,080 --> 02:35:20,840
that spouse simply because they
didn't convert with you.

2347
02:35:23,040 --> 02:35:25,480
And so like, that's another
thing.

2348
02:35:25,600 --> 02:35:35,120
But we we also need to give
people allowances when

2349
02:35:35,400 --> 02:35:39,480
allowances must be made.
I think I'm I'm poorly

2350
02:35:39,480 --> 02:35:42,720
paraphrasing a some a statement
that Joseph made.

2351
02:35:43,560 --> 02:35:46,760
There can be no there there can
be no, there can be made no

2352
02:35:46,760 --> 02:35:49,680
allowances for sin.
But since men's sin allowances

2353
02:35:49,680 --> 02:35:52,360
must be made, I think that's
about pretty close to the quote.

2354
02:35:53,000 --> 02:35:56,520
And, you know, agency,
especially when you're dealing

2355
02:35:56,520 --> 02:36:00,000
with two different people,
because we can control, you

2356
02:36:00,000 --> 02:36:02,480
know, within for the most part,
ourselves.

2357
02:36:03,800 --> 02:36:07,560
We but we can't control other
people and we need to be

2358
02:36:07,560 --> 02:36:10,320
respectful of those agencies and
that and that decision.

2359
02:36:10,720 --> 02:36:14,200
And I want to maybe cover a
Brigham Young sermon.

2360
02:36:14,680 --> 02:36:19,280
And this is kind of interesting
because this sermon, I've

2361
02:36:19,280 --> 02:36:21,600
actually heard it quoted very
little.

2362
02:36:23,080 --> 02:36:28,880
It's it's from in fact, when he
had it, when he gave the sermon,

2363
02:36:29,400 --> 02:36:34,800
he told George Watt to record
it, but not to publish it.

2364
02:36:35,120 --> 02:36:37,240
So this was actually not
published during Brigham's

2365
02:36:37,240 --> 02:36:39,400
interesting, at least that I'm
aware of.

2366
02:36:40,480 --> 02:36:42,840
And you can find it the way the
place I found it.

2367
02:36:43,080 --> 02:36:46,320
It was in one of Ogden Kraut's
books on I think like celestial

2368
02:36:46,320 --> 02:36:49,440
marriage.
But anyway, we're I'll skip

2369
02:36:49,440 --> 02:36:51,520
through some of it.
But I do want to cover some of

2370
02:36:51,520 --> 02:36:56,440
this because I've also actually
heard people who are aware of it

2371
02:36:56,720 --> 02:36:59,880
abuse it.
So let's let's talk it, take it

2372
02:36:59,880 --> 02:37:03,800
all in context and kind of
explore it.

2373
02:37:03,800 --> 02:37:09,000
So he says some years ago he
talked about, he brings up Adam

2374
02:37:09,000 --> 02:37:11,760
God doctrine and he's like,
people are rejecting it.

2375
02:37:13,160 --> 02:37:16,360
If and it's because of me.
He kind of sounds like he's a

2376
02:37:16,360 --> 02:37:20,400
little that miffed that people,
you know, if Joseph had taught

2377
02:37:20,400 --> 02:37:21,720
this, they would have accepted
it.

2378
02:37:21,720 --> 02:37:24,800
But since I taught it, they're
rejecting Adam God doctrine.

2379
02:37:25,240 --> 02:37:26,920
We're having a harder time with
it.

2380
02:37:28,880 --> 02:37:32,000
But anyway, so he dives in right
here.

2381
02:37:32,000 --> 02:37:35,720
We are continually sealing women
to men and continually giving

2382
02:37:35,720 --> 02:37:38,720
divorces.
I now inform every one of my

2383
02:37:38,720 --> 02:37:42,520
sisters that when they come to
get a divorce, paying me $10.00

2384
02:37:42,520 --> 02:37:44,920
for it, you may just as well
tear off a piece of your shirt

2385
02:37:44,920 --> 02:37:46,960
tail and lay it by and call it a
divorce.

2386
02:37:47,160 --> 02:37:49,480
So far as any good that piece of
paper will do you.

2387
02:37:49,480 --> 02:37:55,680
It's kind of a crude manner, but
basically he's trying to make

2388
02:37:55,680 --> 02:38:02,880
the point that yes, it satisfies
the laws of men, but that does

2389
02:38:03,080 --> 02:38:07,680
not necessarily abdicate them of
inside of God and in the laws of

2390
02:38:07,680 --> 02:38:11,080
God.
So he goes on, can a woman be

2391
02:38:11,080 --> 02:38:13,400
freed from a man to whom she is
sealed?

2392
02:38:14,640 --> 02:38:18,040
Yes, but a bill of divorcement
does not free her.

2393
02:38:18,760 --> 02:38:20,880
There is no such law given by
the God of heaven to the

2394
02:38:20,880 --> 02:38:23,840
children of men.
And he goes 3 to talk about

2395
02:38:23,840 --> 02:38:25,560
Moses love.
Moses give her a bill of

2396
02:38:25,560 --> 02:38:28,400
divorcement.
And then Jesus in the gospel

2397
02:38:28,400 --> 02:38:32,040
says whosoever put away his wife
save for the cause of

2398
02:38:32,040 --> 02:38:34,240
fornication causes her to commit
adultery.

2399
02:38:34,440 --> 02:38:38,800
Like we've like we talked about
earlier in this episode and then

2400
02:38:40,360 --> 02:38:44,200
in Mark, Jesus says again
Brigham's quoting Mark now and

2401
02:38:44,200 --> 02:38:46,880
he says Jesus answered to the
Pharisees for the hardness of

2402
02:38:46,880 --> 02:38:49,320
your heart.
Moses wrote you this precept

2403
02:38:49,840 --> 02:38:50,480
referring to.
That.

2404
02:38:51,640 --> 02:38:53,960
But from the beginning of
creation God made them male and

2405
02:38:53,960 --> 02:38:55,840
female.
For this cause shall a man leave

2406
02:38:55,840 --> 02:38:57,560
his father and mother, and
cleave to his wife.

2407
02:38:57,560 --> 02:39:00,520
And they twain shall be 1 flesh,
and they are no more twain, but

2408
02:39:00,520 --> 02:39:02,240
one flesh.
What therefore God hath joined

2409
02:39:02,240 --> 02:39:04,000
together, let no man put
asunder.

2410
02:39:05,720 --> 02:39:08,840
So he kind of gives this
background and now he's going to

2411
02:39:09,040 --> 02:39:13,280
proceed forward again.
Brigham Young speaking, he says

2412
02:39:13,400 --> 02:39:18,840
I am suffered or I am kind of
forced to give bills of

2413
02:39:18,840 --> 02:39:22,200
divorcement.
You know, I, I allowed in in his

2414
02:39:22,200 --> 02:39:24,440
capacity as the president of the
church to give bills of your

2415
02:39:24,960 --> 02:39:27,400
divorcement because of your
blindness, ignorance and

2416
02:39:27,400 --> 02:39:30,000
hardness of heart.
Otherwise it would be a sin in

2417
02:39:30,000 --> 02:39:32,480
me.
But how can a woman be made free

2418
02:39:32,480 --> 02:39:35,080
from a man to whom she has been
sealed for time and eternity?

2419
02:39:35,280 --> 02:39:38,560
There are two ways all the
elders in Israel will not

2420
02:39:38,560 --> 02:39:41,000
magnify their priesthood that
are now in the habit of taking

2421
02:39:41,000 --> 02:39:42,800
women, not caring how they get
them.

2422
02:39:42,840 --> 02:39:45,760
They freak them get them
frequently by stealth.

2423
02:39:46,320 --> 02:39:48,880
I will diverge a little bit here
to comment on the way some get

2424
02:39:48,880 --> 02:39:51,320
their wives.
OK, so he's going to so he talks

2425
02:39:51,320 --> 02:39:54,240
about the first way he doesn't
really come out and and just say

2426
02:39:54,240 --> 02:39:56,040
it plainly.
So I'm going to just say it as

2427
02:39:56,040 --> 02:40:00,040
plain as I know if a man is not
faithful.

2428
02:40:00,640 --> 02:40:03,760
The woman is not forced to be
with him in a community.

2429
02:40:04,400 --> 02:40:08,360
OK, so cuz that would be damning
her through no fault of her own

2430
02:40:08,360 --> 02:40:11,160
just because of the agency of
her husband, right?

2431
02:40:11,640 --> 02:40:14,680
And so and then he kind of takes
this detour and he starts

2432
02:40:14,680 --> 02:40:19,520
talking about how some men just
basically try to trick women

2433
02:40:19,680 --> 02:40:22,360
into marrying them.
And sadly, I think that this

2434
02:40:22,360 --> 02:40:26,720
could even apply to some of our
fundamentalists people in our

2435
02:40:27,040 --> 02:40:29,280
networks that.
The revelation.

2436
02:40:29,400 --> 02:40:31,960
Yeah.
Yeah, I've had a dream, Yeah.

2437
02:40:32,800 --> 02:40:39,960
And so they, we need to be very
careful cuz yes, well, maybe

2438
02:40:39,960 --> 02:40:41,320
I'll come back to that.
OK.

2439
02:40:41,480 --> 02:40:44,200
And after I go through this.
Hold on one second, when you

2440
02:40:44,200 --> 02:40:47,480
said before, if a man isn't
faithful, I assume that's

2441
02:40:47,760 --> 02:40:51,520
meaning faithful to the marriage
covenant as well as faithful to

2442
02:40:51,520 --> 02:40:53,520
his other covenants he's made
right?

2443
02:40:53,520 --> 02:40:56,840
Or to faithful to the gospel or.
Yes.

2444
02:40:57,200 --> 02:40:59,680
OK.
Yeah, cuz like, you know, in

2445
02:40:59,680 --> 02:41:04,760
Mormonism we have this bold
audacious goal to become like

2446
02:41:04,760 --> 02:41:10,560
God, to become as gods, right
and come in errors of God and to

2447
02:41:10,560 --> 02:41:15,000
become gods.
Like if a woman marries a man

2448
02:41:15,840 --> 02:41:20,080
with the understanding that he
will help her get to that point

2449
02:41:20,080 --> 02:41:27,240
to be to attain godhood and he,
you know, slacks off and and

2450
02:41:27,640 --> 02:41:30,760
isn't worth his salt and doesn't
make it to that point.

2451
02:41:31,040 --> 02:41:35,040
Like, yeah, she's not stuck with
him right in Infernity.

2452
02:41:35,080 --> 02:41:37,800
You know, there's this life in
this life.

2453
02:41:37,800 --> 02:41:40,560
Maybe it's part of her cross
that she'll have to bear is

2454
02:41:40,600 --> 02:41:44,520
she'll have to deal with being
married to this guy and and he's

2455
02:41:44,520 --> 02:41:47,760
not delivering on the promises
and the, you know, the things

2456
02:41:47,760 --> 02:41:49,400
that he had made covenants to
her.

2457
02:41:50,240 --> 02:41:53,840
That's I'm not saying that that
just immediately absolves a

2458
02:41:53,840 --> 02:41:59,040
woman from having to stick it
out, but in an eternity setting

2459
02:41:59,080 --> 02:42:02,600
context she will be given to
somebody else.

2460
02:42:02,880 --> 02:42:06,440
Right. 100% and if there's
abuses like there are other

2461
02:42:06,440 --> 02:42:11,200
things that will absolve a woman
from having to stay in a an

2462
02:42:11,200 --> 02:42:16,480
abusive situation, but but in an
eternal perspective, that's what

2463
02:42:16,480 --> 02:42:20,160
I'm trying to focus on is not
stuck with him forever.

2464
02:42:20,400 --> 02:42:23,360
Like was it Joseph Smith?
I want to say Joseph Smith in

2465
02:42:23,360 --> 02:42:28,680
one of the what was it the times
and seasons articles or it was

2466
02:42:28,680 --> 02:42:32,880
in the Nauvoo period.
He was he was telling somebody,

2467
02:42:34,200 --> 02:42:37,920
Oh, I want to say Benjamin F
Johnson, Benjamin F Johnson was

2468
02:42:37,920 --> 02:42:41,680
doing was was at was listening
to Joseph give a sermon in

2469
02:42:41,680 --> 02:42:45,560
Nauvoo.
And during this sermon Joseph

2470
02:42:45,640 --> 02:42:49,200
comes came up to him beforehand
and said I'm going to be talking

2471
02:42:49,200 --> 02:42:52,280
about the plurality of wives and
nobody else is going to know it

2472
02:42:52,520 --> 02:42:57,200
except you, but you will know.
And do you have you?

2473
02:42:57,200 --> 02:42:59,360
Does this ring a bell?
It doesn't but.

2474
02:43:00,800 --> 02:43:07,080
It talks about the parable of
the talents amazingly, and he's,

2475
02:43:07,240 --> 02:43:11,480
and so he was teaching this
parable about and, and he

2476
02:43:11,480 --> 02:43:13,280
applied it to this Benjamin F
Johnson.

2477
02:43:13,280 --> 02:43:15,040
I believe it.
I could be mistaken.

2478
02:43:15,040 --> 02:43:17,760
Forgive me if it's, if it's
somebody else, but but he's

2479
02:43:17,760 --> 02:43:21,840
applying it to the principle of
plurality of wives and saying if

2480
02:43:21,840 --> 02:43:25,840
a man has five wives in this
life and is faithful, he'll be

2481
02:43:25,840 --> 02:43:27,800
given five more.
If a man has two wives in his

2482
02:43:27,800 --> 02:43:28,720
faithful, he'll be given two
more.

2483
02:43:28,920 --> 02:43:33,080
If a man squanders his one wife,
like buries his talent and you

2484
02:43:33,080 --> 02:43:38,760
know, and just is a poor husband
and is not, you know, providing

2485
02:43:38,760 --> 02:43:42,720
her the leadership and the, you
know, priesthood guidance and

2486
02:43:42,720 --> 02:43:47,680
power that she needs those where
did the five, where did the man

2487
02:43:47,680 --> 02:43:50,720
with the five extra talents?
Where did those talents come

2488
02:43:50,720 --> 02:43:52,680
from?
It came from of these men who

2489
02:43:52,680 --> 02:43:57,600
have one wife and squandered it
and inheritance.

2490
02:43:58,160 --> 02:44:02,120
And that was really kind of a
fascinating story for me to when

2491
02:44:02,120 --> 02:44:07,040
I first came across it, because
in Section 121 we learned that

2492
02:44:07,680 --> 02:44:11,840
with that these principles of of
eternal relationships and unions

2493
02:44:12,320 --> 02:44:16,480
are without compulsory means.
Right, right.

2494
02:44:16,480 --> 02:44:19,280
And and and I have heard that
before.

2495
02:44:19,280 --> 02:44:22,560
Once you got into it, it did I
that was sounding familiar.

2496
02:44:24,120 --> 02:44:28,520
Excuse me, when I was first
reading that, one of the things

2497
02:44:28,520 --> 02:44:32,960
that came out to me as as I read
it was I don't think that's only

2498
02:44:32,960 --> 02:44:36,240
about, you know, making sure you
attend your church meetings and

2499
02:44:36,240 --> 02:44:38,000
those sorts of things either,
right?

2500
02:44:38,440 --> 02:44:42,040
Like, I think, I think one of
the things with the magnifying

2501
02:44:42,040 --> 02:44:44,800
here is did you empower your
wife?

2502
02:44:45,000 --> 02:44:47,760
Did you allow them to fill the
measure of their creation?

2503
02:44:47,760 --> 02:44:52,640
Or were you one who was like,
no, no, no, you just do as I

2504
02:44:52,640 --> 02:44:57,200
tell you sort of a thing, right?
If, if, if you're not empowering

2505
02:44:57,200 --> 02:45:00,760
your wife to be all that she can
be and given her that space to

2506
02:45:00,760 --> 02:45:03,680
do what it is she needs to do to
become the best version of

2507
02:45:03,680 --> 02:45:07,240
herself.
And you've attended all your

2508
02:45:07,240 --> 02:45:08,800
other meetings and you went to
the temple.

2509
02:45:08,800 --> 02:45:11,120
I don't think any of those
matter, right?

2510
02:45:11,320 --> 02:45:15,760
You she let's not forget,
brethren, they choose us.

2511
02:45:16,480 --> 02:45:19,040
Yes.
They choose us, right?

2512
02:45:19,360 --> 02:45:22,600
And I can't remember who I heard
this from.

2513
02:45:23,000 --> 02:45:26,080
And they get a chance.
They get a chance to change

2514
02:45:26,080 --> 02:45:27,520
their mind.
Yes.

2515
02:45:27,920 --> 02:45:31,640
Yes, let me just read this one
little thing from from Brigham,

2516
02:45:32,840 --> 02:45:37,840
that if they will probably find
men who do this, will probably

2517
02:45:37,840 --> 02:45:40,040
find in the morning of the
resurrection that they have not

2518
02:45:40,040 --> 02:45:42,520
attained their end.
Wives obtained in this way will

2519
02:45:42,520 --> 02:45:44,320
be given to those who are more
worthy.

2520
02:45:44,680 --> 02:45:49,680
Yeah, Yep.
And so again, they have their

2521
02:45:49,680 --> 02:45:52,720
choice, right?
And I can't remember who who it

2522
02:45:52,720 --> 02:45:54,640
was that told me this, but it
rang true.

2523
02:45:57,720 --> 02:46:02,040
The reason, one of the reasons
plural marriage exists is so

2524
02:46:02,040 --> 02:46:06,120
that there can be more than one
witness that you were a good

2525
02:46:06,120 --> 02:46:10,160
guy, right?
That carries some weight that

2526
02:46:10,160 --> 02:46:13,160
that kind of put me on notice.
I have to admit, when I first

2527
02:46:13,160 --> 02:46:15,640
heard that, I was like, uh oh,
right.

2528
02:46:15,640 --> 02:46:20,160
Like, so it's not enough to have
multiple wives.

2529
02:46:20,160 --> 02:46:24,320
Let's get that out of the way.
Those women, you, you better

2530
02:46:24,320 --> 02:46:26,440
treat them right, because
they're going to, they get to

2531
02:46:26,440 --> 02:46:31,040
choose and you know that that
should carry some weight to you.

2532
02:46:31,680 --> 02:46:34,920
I, you know, I, I often think
sometimes that final judgement

2533
02:46:34,920 --> 02:46:37,520
will be, will be a couple of
things right?

2534
02:46:38,000 --> 02:46:40,960
A, a personal accounting.
But I think for the brethren,

2535
02:46:41,800 --> 02:46:45,520
the, the, the Lord is going to
look at, at, at our, our wives

2536
02:46:45,520 --> 02:46:48,680
and say, how was your husband?
Did he treat you well?

2537
02:46:48,680 --> 02:46:51,120
Did he make you happy?
Did he help you grow?

2538
02:46:52,320 --> 02:46:56,120
And if she can't answer in the
affirmative, I think there's

2539
02:46:56,120 --> 02:46:59,120
some issues.
There will be some issues there.

2540
02:46:59,640 --> 02:47:02,440
So anyway, sorry, go ahead.
Oh, you're good.

2541
02:47:02,440 --> 02:47:05,880
So, so just to kind of move on
with Brigham's words, he says

2542
02:47:05,880 --> 02:47:07,760
this.
I mean to apply to you elders on

2543
02:47:07,760 --> 02:47:10,120
my right and left, who forefoot
your covenants and violate the

2544
02:47:10,120 --> 02:47:12,960
regulations of this holy order
of matrimony, which is to live

2545
02:47:12,960 --> 02:47:15,440
godly in Christ Jesus every hour
of our lives.

2546
02:47:16,040 --> 02:47:18,680
So that's kind of wrapping up
the the tangent that he went on.

2547
02:47:19,040 --> 02:47:22,760
So to return to the threat of
the subject before us, if a man

2548
02:47:22,800 --> 02:47:25,800
magnifies his priesthood,
observing faithfully his

2549
02:47:25,800 --> 02:47:29,240
covenants to the end of his
life, all the wives and children

2550
02:47:29,240 --> 02:47:32,760
steal to him all the blessings
and honors promised to him in

2551
02:47:32,760 --> 02:47:35,800
his ordinations and sealing
blessings are immutably and

2552
02:47:35,800 --> 02:47:39,680
eternally affixed.
No power can wrench them from

2553
02:47:39,680 --> 02:47:42,360
his possession.
You may inquire.

2554
02:47:43,400 --> 02:47:49,840
So that's kind of interesting
because like, wait, agency, what

2555
02:47:49,840 --> 02:47:55,240
if a woman doesn't want to be
like I, I, but I think that we

2556
02:47:55,240 --> 02:47:58,920
see things dark through a,
through a glass darkly in.

2557
02:47:58,920 --> 02:48:02,840
And So what I think referring to
is once we have the veil lifted

2558
02:48:03,360 --> 02:48:05,920
and we have the full
perspective, that is the point

2559
02:48:05,920 --> 02:48:11,440
at which men will basically have
have everything that they've

2560
02:48:11,680 --> 02:48:17,960
been promised delivered.
So you may inquire, in case a

2561
02:48:17,960 --> 02:48:20,480
wife becomes dissatisfied with
her husband, her affections

2562
02:48:20,480 --> 02:48:23,480
lost, she becomes alienated from
him and wishes to be the wife of

2563
02:48:23,480 --> 02:48:25,760
another, can she not leave him
in this life?

2564
02:48:27,040 --> 02:48:30,600
Brigham says, I know of no law
in heaven or on earth by which

2565
02:48:30,600 --> 02:48:34,160
she can be made free, while her
husband remains faithful and

2566
02:48:34,160 --> 02:48:37,760
magnifies his priesthood before
God, and he and he is not

2567
02:48:37,760 --> 02:48:40,440
disposed to put her away, she
having done nothing worthy of

2568
02:48:40,440 --> 02:48:44,280
being put away.
If that dissatisfied wife could

2569
02:48:44,280 --> 02:48:47,120
behold the transcendent beauty
of person, the God like

2570
02:48:47,120 --> 02:48:50,600
qualities of the resurrected
husband she now despises, her

2571
02:48:50,600 --> 02:48:53,400
love for him would be unbounded
and unalterable.

2572
02:48:54,000 --> 02:48:56,800
Instead of despising him, she
would feel like worshipping him.

2573
02:48:56,800 --> 02:49:00,080
He is so holy, so pure, so
perfect, and so filled with God

2574
02:49:00,080 --> 02:49:03,520
in his resurrected body.
There will be no dissatisfaction

2575
02:49:03,520 --> 02:49:05,760
of this kind in the resurrection
of the just.

2576
02:49:06,360 --> 02:49:09,000
The faithful elders have then
proved themselves worthy of

2577
02:49:09,000 --> 02:49:11,520
their wives, and are prepared to
be crowned gods, to be filled

2578
02:49:11,520 --> 02:49:13,800
with all the attributes of the
gods that dwell in eternity.

2579
02:49:13,800 --> 02:49:16,360
Could the dissatisfied ones see
a vision even of the future

2580
02:49:16,360 --> 02:49:19,600
glorified state of your husband,
love for them would immediately

2581
02:49:19,600 --> 02:49:22,560
spring up within you, and no
circumstance could prevail upon

2582
02:49:22,560 --> 02:49:27,120
you to forsake them.
So it sounds like to me

2583
02:49:27,120 --> 02:49:31,480
Brigham's talking about this
idea and and I'm sorry, this has

2584
02:49:31,480 --> 02:49:35,240
drove me nuts from the beginning
of time that I've dealt with it

2585
02:49:35,880 --> 02:49:38,760
where I'll just give a personal
example.

2586
02:49:39,400 --> 02:49:45,960
OK.
I had a guy come in once, guy

2587
02:49:45,960 --> 02:49:50,680
worked with years and years and
years ago came in and goes, man,

2588
02:49:51,280 --> 02:49:53,560
I need to get a divorce.
I'm like why?

2589
02:49:54,280 --> 02:49:57,280
He's like, I just am not in love
with my wife.

2590
02:49:57,280 --> 02:49:59,480
I mean I love her.
She's the mother of my kids, but

2591
02:49:59,480 --> 02:50:05,520
I'm not in love with her.
And I'm like, bro, have you

2592
02:50:05,520 --> 02:50:08,240
looked at yourself like I'm
right here with you, right?

2593
02:50:08,240 --> 02:50:11,560
I'm not, I'm not saying I'm any
better, but my resale value

2594
02:50:11,560 --> 02:50:14,680
ain't great, right?
And I would be very, you know, I

2595
02:50:14,680 --> 02:50:17,400
would encourage you to do maybe
a little bit of looking in the

2596
02:50:17,400 --> 02:50:20,720
mirror here.
And so I think what Brigham's

2597
02:50:20,720 --> 02:50:22,600
getting across here is just
that, right?

2598
02:50:22,600 --> 02:50:27,960
I would classify that as being
divorced because you think the

2599
02:50:27,960 --> 02:50:31,000
grass is greener on the other
side or things don't feel quite

2600
02:50:31,000 --> 02:50:34,840
like they used to, right?
Look, I've got no time for that

2601
02:50:34,840 --> 02:50:38,480
kind of frivolity when it comes
to eternal ceilings, right?

2602
02:50:39,080 --> 02:50:42,680
You have to be able to stick it
out in those circumstances and

2603
02:50:42,680 --> 02:50:45,400
work through it.
If, if things aren't feeling

2604
02:50:45,400 --> 02:50:47,440
like you want them to feel, work
on that.

2605
02:50:48,120 --> 02:50:49,920
Work on that.
Don't give up on it.

2606
02:50:49,920 --> 02:50:52,600
Don't throw in the towel.
Don't be a quitter at all

2607
02:50:52,600 --> 02:50:55,880
because it's easier.
And I think this is part of the

2608
02:50:55,880 --> 02:50:57,600
thing Brigham's hitting and
hitting on here.

2609
02:50:57,600 --> 02:51:00,480
And I think it works both for
the brothers as much as it does

2610
02:51:00,480 --> 02:51:07,560
the sisters. 100%, I agree.
Yeah, so the so again agency

2611
02:51:07,560 --> 02:51:08,840
will be?
Respected.

2612
02:51:08,840 --> 02:51:11,160
It's an eternal principle.
But.

2613
02:51:11,360 --> 02:51:14,920
When we have that perfect
vision, when the veil is lifted,

2614
02:51:14,920 --> 02:51:20,200
we're no longer blinded by our
fallen natures and the, you

2615
02:51:20,200 --> 02:51:24,320
know, weaknesses and foibles of
the flesh, then I think that we

2616
02:51:24,320 --> 02:51:26,080
will be able to make that
choice.

2617
02:51:26,080 --> 02:51:28,760
And.
And, you know, and so as a

2618
02:51:28,760 --> 02:51:32,160
brother, you know it because
I've seen good men whose wives

2619
02:51:32,160 --> 02:51:35,480
have chosen to leave them.
You know, even going back to

2620
02:51:35,480 --> 02:51:40,480
Joseph, I mean, it's not like
Emma left him, but you could say

2621
02:51:40,480 --> 02:51:43,280
their relationship was maybe a
little strained by the end of

2622
02:51:43,360 --> 02:51:48,240
virtual life.
And and it just for me gives

2623
02:51:48,240 --> 02:51:52,400
hope that, yeah, this woman that
I've invested my life in and

2624
02:51:52,400 --> 02:51:59,160
that I love with all my heart, I
can have an expectation of being

2625
02:51:59,160 --> 02:52:02,720
reunited with her, even if it's
at all not hunky Dory in this

2626
02:52:02,720 --> 02:52:05,120
life.
Like there will be opportunity

2627
02:52:05,120 --> 02:52:08,000
to make those things right in
the in the next 1.

2628
02:52:08,120 --> 02:52:11,320
So.
Absolutely cool.

2629
02:52:11,680 --> 02:52:15,240
So just to we're over half done.
I'll I'll just.

2630
02:52:15,560 --> 02:52:17,440
Oh, you're good.
Talking from Brigham, so the

2631
02:52:17,440 --> 02:52:19,720
second.
Way in which a wife OK, so he

2632
02:52:19,720 --> 02:52:21,920
talked about the first way, the
second way in which a.

2633
02:52:21,920 --> 02:52:24,120
Wife can be separated from.
Her husband, while he continues

2634
02:52:24,120 --> 02:52:26,200
to be faithful to his God and
his priesthood, I have not

2635
02:52:26,200 --> 02:52:28,520
revealed except to a few persons
in this Church.

2636
02:52:29,080 --> 02:52:31,880
A few received it from Joseph
the Prophet as well as myself.

2637
02:52:32,800 --> 02:52:35,160
If a woman can find a man
holding the keys of the

2638
02:52:35,160 --> 02:52:38,480
priesthood with higher power and
authority than her husband, and

2639
02:52:38,480 --> 02:52:39,480
he is.
Disposed to.

2640
02:52:39,480 --> 02:52:42,600
Take her, he can do so.
Otherwise she has got to remain

2641
02:52:42,600 --> 02:52:45,480
where she is.
To repeat first, if a man

2642
02:52:45,480 --> 02:52:47,800
forfeits his covenants with his
wife or wives, becoming

2643
02:52:47,800 --> 02:52:50,240
unfaithful to his God and his
priesthood, that wife or wives

2644
02:52:50,240 --> 02:52:52,160
are free from him without a bill
of divorcement.

2645
02:52:52,520 --> 02:52:55,840
Second, if a woman claims
protection at the hands of a man

2646
02:52:55,840 --> 02:52:58,880
possessing more power in the
priesthood and higher keys, if

2647
02:52:58,880 --> 02:53:02,160
he is disposed to rescue her and
has obtained the consent of her

2648
02:53:02,160 --> 02:53:05,800
husband to make her his wife, he
can do so without a bill of

2649
02:53:05,800 --> 02:53:08,600
divorcement.
If after she has left her

2650
02:53:08,600 --> 02:53:11,320
husband and is sealed to
another, she shall again cohabit

2651
02:53:11,320 --> 02:53:13,280
with him.
It is illicit intercourse and

2652
02:53:13,280 --> 02:53:21,200
extremely sinful.
So I want to just say God loves.

2653
02:53:21,200 --> 02:53:27,040
His daughters so much like he's.
Provided ways means to to be

2654
02:53:27,040 --> 02:53:34,440
rescued if the if the case needs
if the if it merits that, but

2655
02:53:34,440 --> 02:53:40,080
this should not I have seen this
abused or at least hurt.

2656
02:53:40,400 --> 02:53:43,080
You know, I, I've, I've maybe I.
Guess I.

2657
02:53:43,080 --> 02:53:46,200
Haven't really necessarily seen
it first hand, but I have heard,

2658
02:53:46,600 --> 02:53:51,800
you know, especially when in a
situation where like especially

2659
02:53:51,800 --> 02:53:58,400
A1 man type of a culture where
women are, you know, a scarce or

2660
02:53:58,960 --> 02:54:01,800
a, a finite quantity, a finite
supply.

2661
02:54:02,280 --> 02:54:06,640
And, you know, and so men
desiring more and more wives

2662
02:54:06,720 --> 02:54:12,280
take more and more wives.
And once they ran out, well,

2663
02:54:12,440 --> 02:54:16,280
they start taking women that are
already married to other men in

2664
02:54:16,280 --> 02:54:19,720
the congregation.
And I, you know, hate talking

2665
02:54:19,720 --> 02:54:21,760
even about that 'cause it's just
so messed up.

2666
02:54:21,760 --> 02:54:26,360
But I think we need to be aware,
cognizant that that is a thing

2667
02:54:26,680 --> 02:54:31,640
and we need to be part of the
solution, not the problem.

2668
02:54:32,200 --> 02:54:35,400
Yeah.
So anything you want to add to

2669
02:54:35,400 --> 02:54:40,040
that section?
You know, I think it's

2670
02:54:40,040 --> 02:54:43,200
interesting here because Brigham
uses the term rescue.

2671
02:54:43,920 --> 02:54:48,360
Yes, right.
I don't think what Brigham is

2672
02:54:48,360 --> 02:54:54,720
saying here is that just
marrying quote up the priesthood

2673
02:54:54,720 --> 02:54:56,760
chain, right?
I don't think he's giving.

2674
02:54:56,760 --> 02:54:58,720
Sanction to that, I think.
What?

2675
02:54:58,720 --> 02:55:02,560
He is given sanction to is this
idea of perhaps we have a

2676
02:55:02,560 --> 02:55:08,040
brother here who has failed at
his priesthood duties and now we

2677
02:55:08,040 --> 02:55:14,280
have to out make some allowances
for this sister to be able to be

2678
02:55:14,280 --> 02:55:17,240
sealed to a worthy husband,
right?

2679
02:55:17,240 --> 02:55:20,000
Exactly.
And so I don't think this is

2680
02:55:20,080 --> 02:55:24,160
this is a license to go marry up
the chain of the.

2681
02:55:24,160 --> 02:55:25,760
Priesthood.
Right, right.

2682
02:55:26,040 --> 02:55:30,360
I think this is meant for quite
frankly, as I as, as, as it's,

2683
02:55:30,920 --> 02:55:34,320
as I hear it and, and think
about a little bit, I think it

2684
02:55:34,320 --> 02:55:38,160
has more to do with maybe some
abusive situations and that sort

2685
02:55:38,160 --> 02:55:41,840
of thing.
And frankly, if a man claiming

2686
02:55:41,840 --> 02:55:45,880
to hold advanced priesthood
comes to you, you know.

2687
02:55:46,160 --> 02:55:52,800
A woman and says, Hey, you want
to marry up all right, Like this

2688
02:55:52,800 --> 02:55:56,600
can this invites abuse or this
this, this can be abused.

2689
02:55:56,600 --> 02:56:00,520
And I just want to say I don't
think God appreciates it.

2690
02:56:00,880 --> 02:56:05,720
No, no, I think, I think though
to to quote the late great Ricky

2691
02:56:05,720 --> 02:56:07,760
Ricardo, you got some explaining
to do.

2692
02:56:08,120 --> 02:56:09,600
Right.
I I don't think he's going to

2693
02:56:09,600 --> 02:56:14,120
get off Scott free.
So, and for all those too young

2694
02:56:14,120 --> 02:56:16,280
to know who Ricky Ricardo is,
just Google it.

2695
02:56:17,720 --> 02:56:21,880
But but yeah, no, I think, I
think there's definitely some,

2696
02:56:22,800 --> 02:56:25,160
some ways that that we have seen
that abused.

2697
02:56:25,160 --> 02:56:28,440
And we have to be cognizant of
that, that that doesn't take

2698
02:56:28,440 --> 02:56:31,680
place in in wherever we are,
right.

2699
02:56:31,680 --> 02:56:34,000
Independent in a group,
otherwise, whatever.

2700
02:56:36,600 --> 02:56:39,200
Yeah.
And and you know, if if a leader

2701
02:56:39,200 --> 02:56:41,480
is doing that, Amen to his
priesthood.

2702
02:56:42,280 --> 02:56:46,200
I don't know what else to say.
I think that violates, you know,

2703
02:56:46,200 --> 02:56:48,400
that that section of the
Doctrine Covenant there for

2704
02:56:48,400 --> 02:56:50,000
sure.
But it's certainly the

2705
02:56:50,000 --> 02:56:51,800
unrighteous dominion,
Absolutely.

2706
02:56:52,240 --> 02:56:54,560
If I ever saw or heard of it,
Absolutely.

2707
02:56:55,800 --> 02:56:57,120
Cool.
Well, there's just a couple more

2708
02:56:57,120 --> 02:57:00,480
little Nuggets here to to just
wrap up with.

2709
02:57:00,480 --> 02:57:02,680
This discourse from Brigham
pertaining.

2710
02:57:02,680 --> 02:57:07,120
To His children on this earth.
OK, she oh, a few remarks on

2711
02:57:07,120 --> 02:57:09,320
woman.
She is the glory of the man, but

2712
02:57:09,320 --> 02:57:11,960
she is not at the head in all
the creations of God pertaining

2713
02:57:11,960 --> 02:57:14,600
to His children on this earth.
She is not accountable for the

2714
02:57:14,600 --> 02:57:18,400
sins that are in the world.
God requires obedience for man.

2715
02:57:18,400 --> 02:57:21,400
He is the Lord of creation, and
at His hand the sins of the

2716
02:57:21,400 --> 02:57:24,640
world will be required.
Could the female portions of the

2717
02:57:24,640 --> 02:57:27,920
human family fully understand
this, they would see that they

2718
02:57:27,920 --> 02:57:31,000
are objects of tender mercy and
greatly blessed.

2719
02:57:32,480 --> 02:57:35,920
This, no doubt, on a casual
view, appears to my sister's a

2720
02:57:35,920 --> 02:57:39,120
glorious doctrine for them.
And some might be tempted.

2721
02:57:39,120 --> 02:57:41,920
In their ignorance to take
unwarrantable liberties, corrupt

2722
02:57:41,920 --> 02:57:44,520
themselves with sin, and then
take shelter under the doctrine

2723
02:57:44,760 --> 02:57:47,440
that man alone is culpable for
the sins they commit.

2724
02:57:47,960 --> 02:57:50,760
There are, however, restrictions
placed upon woman.

2725
02:57:50,880 --> 02:57:53,160
I will quote a passage of
Scripture to illustrate this.

2726
02:57:54,160 --> 02:57:55,960
And the man that committeth
adultery with another man's

2727
02:57:55,960 --> 02:57:58,120
wife, even he that committeth
adultery with his neighbour's

2728
02:57:58,120 --> 02:57:59,960
wife.
The adulterer and the adulteress

2729
02:57:59,960 --> 02:58:02,920
shall surely be put to death.
When the crime was thus atoned

2730
02:58:02,920 --> 02:58:06,000
for, then was she free and
prepared to receive in full the

2731
02:58:06,000 --> 02:58:08,280
blessing she otherwise would
have received, had she not

2732
02:58:08,280 --> 02:58:11,480
committed sin.
Women must atone for sins

2733
02:58:11,480 --> 02:58:13,080
committed by the volition of her
choice.

2734
02:58:13,320 --> 02:58:15,680
But she will never become an
Angel to the devil and sin so

2735
02:58:15,680 --> 02:58:17,880
far as to place herself beyond
the reach of mercy.

2736
02:58:18,440 --> 02:58:21,120
She will suffer all that she has
strength to suffer according to

2737
02:58:21,120 --> 02:58:24,280
the venality of her sins.
The woman is the glory of the

2738
02:58:24,280 --> 02:58:26,040
man.
What is the glory of the woman?

2739
02:58:26,200 --> 02:58:28,680
It is her virginity until she
gives it into the hands of the

2740
02:58:28,680 --> 02:58:31,280
man that will be her Lord and
Master to all eternity.

2741
02:58:31,880 --> 02:58:35,120
She in many instances trifles
with virtue, will be damned for

2742
02:58:35,120 --> 02:58:38,080
so doing if it were not for more
than 5 minutes.

2743
02:58:39,120 --> 02:58:41,920
When a woman can truly say to
her husband who magnifies his

2744
02:58:41,920 --> 02:58:44,880
priesthood, I am as pure as you,
she ought to remember.

2745
02:58:44,880 --> 02:58:48,320
That it is the glory of.
That, Lord, is it her glory to

2746
02:58:48,320 --> 02:58:50,840
have elicited intercourse with a
Gentile, and then be sealed to a

2747
02:58:50,840 --> 02:58:52,320
good elder and faithful servant
of God?

2748
02:58:52,480 --> 02:58:54,960
No, she will be damned for it
and suffer the pangs of hell.

2749
02:58:55,400 --> 02:58:57,400
It is her duty to let wickedness
alone.

2750
02:58:57,640 --> 02:59:00,000
Our sisters are very tenacious
with regard to a man's having

2751
02:59:00,000 --> 02:59:01,880
more than one wife, says the
wife.

2752
02:59:01,880 --> 02:59:03,960
Husband, I'm capable of making
your dinner.

2753
02:59:03,960 --> 02:59:05,680
I can make your bed.
I can attend to your physical

2754
02:59:05,680 --> 02:59:07,960
need at once.
You do not need another woman in

2755
02:59:07,960 --> 02:59:11,080
this house.
Do you not know that that is a

2756
02:59:11,080 --> 02:59:12,640
curse placed upon woman?
Why?

2757
02:59:12,640 --> 02:59:14,960
So that she may not become an
Angel to the devil.

2758
02:59:15,200 --> 02:59:17,720
It is the order of heaven.
She should suffer in the flesh.

2759
02:59:18,080 --> 02:59:21,280
You say you will not suffer in
the flesh, that you will not be

2760
02:59:21,280 --> 02:59:23,960
cursed, that you will have the
fullest satisfaction of this

2761
02:59:23,960 --> 02:59:26,320
life and let the the next life
take care of itself.

2762
02:59:26,640 --> 02:59:29,040
And now, Mr. Husband, if you do
not make a heaven for me, I will

2763
02:59:29,040 --> 02:59:31,560
leave you.
You have a curse upon you that

2764
02:59:31,560 --> 02:59:33,480
the male portion of the human
family have not got.

2765
02:59:33,760 --> 02:59:36,320
Their curse is to toil for a
subsistence for themselves and

2766
02:59:36,320 --> 02:59:38,480
wives and children to obtain
from the ground by the sweat of

2767
02:59:38,480 --> 02:59:40,080
their brow, bread and fruit,
etcetera.

2768
02:59:41,160 --> 02:59:44,880
And he quotes Adam from Genesis.
Cursed is the ground and

2769
02:59:44,880 --> 02:59:46,520
sorrows.
Thou shall eat thorns and

2770
02:59:46,520 --> 02:59:49,440
thistles.
Notice the curse placed upon the

2771
02:59:49,440 --> 02:59:50,560
woman.
Unto the woman, he said.

2772
02:59:50,560 --> 02:59:53,480
I will greatly multiply.
Thy sorrow and conception bring

2773
02:59:53,480 --> 02:59:55,320
forth children.
Thy desire shall be to thy

2774
02:59:55,320 --> 02:59:57,080
husband.
He shall rule over thee.

2775
02:59:57,840 --> 02:59:59,600
Yes, your desire shall be for
your husband.

2776
02:59:59,600 --> 03:00:02,000
Your soul will long for him, and
it is one of the hardest things

2777
03:00:02,000 --> 03:00:04,400
you can think of to consent that
your husband should take another

2778
03:00:04,400 --> 03:00:06,240
wife.
And when you bring forth, it

2779
03:00:06,240 --> 03:00:09,400
shall be in children, it shall
be in extreme pain.

2780
03:00:09,520 --> 03:00:11,880
Were it not for this curse,
woman would not have suffered

2781
03:00:11,880 --> 03:00:13,840
pain in childbearing.
She has taken the lead in

2782
03:00:13,840 --> 03:00:15,760
committing sin, and she will
fill her days with sorrow.

2783
03:00:15,760 --> 03:00:18,720
She shall desire this and that,
and the other, and her

2784
03:00:18,720 --> 03:00:21,400
disposition, infections, and her
whole being shall be afflicted

2785
03:00:21,400 --> 03:00:23,800
as much as the man.
But his afflictions are of

2786
03:00:23,800 --> 03:00:26,200
another kind.
So.

2787
03:00:26,800 --> 03:00:29,320
I want to just talk, unpack that
a little bit.

2788
03:00:30,240 --> 03:00:36,200
Basically what he's saying is
just to parse it into words that

2789
03:00:36,520 --> 03:00:39,560
to me are the most clear.
Women can't become sons of

2790
03:00:39,560 --> 03:00:41,440
perdition.
Like we've never heard of

2791
03:00:41,440 --> 03:00:44,560
daughters of perdition, right?
That's, that's kind of an

2792
03:00:44,560 --> 03:00:47,240
interesting thing and an
interesting principle that he's

2793
03:00:47,240 --> 03:00:53,720
teaching here and that is that,
you know, women need to be

2794
03:00:53,720 --> 03:00:57,680
careful though, because this
could be abused, right?

2795
03:00:58,520 --> 03:01:01,520
If a woman's like.
Hey, I can just go and do

2796
03:01:01,520 --> 03:01:05,080
whatever I want and then if.
I as long as I can find a good

2797
03:01:05,080 --> 03:01:07,920
man to.
To to take me I'm I've got it

2798
03:01:07,920 --> 03:01:10,440
met, I've got it made I'm I'm
set right.

2799
03:01:10,880 --> 03:01:15,760
No women will have to suffer
like in section 19 or is it 18

2800
03:01:15,960 --> 03:01:19,680
when Christ is talking about you
don't want to have to suffer

2801
03:01:19,680 --> 03:01:23,320
like I had to suffer right.
You should really repent.

2802
03:01:23,320 --> 03:01:25,880
I highly recommend that you
repent right.

2803
03:01:27,440 --> 03:01:29,480
So anyway.
Any else, anything else you want

2804
03:01:29,480 --> 03:01:31,720
to add to that?
Yeah, just that, just that,

2805
03:01:31,720 --> 03:01:32,800
that.
That's not a.

2806
03:01:32,800 --> 03:01:35,520
License to go screw around.
And then think it can be made

2807
03:01:35,520 --> 03:01:38,640
all better now.
Want to be careful here too with

2808
03:01:38,640 --> 03:01:41,840
that, right?
People make mistakes, right?

2809
03:01:41,840 --> 03:01:45,320
And I know that there is
repentance and so repenting of

2810
03:01:45,320 --> 03:01:48,400
that, honestly, and then
marrying a good man.

2811
03:01:48,400 --> 03:01:51,040
I, I think you've met the
qualifications there of not

2812
03:01:51,040 --> 03:01:55,080
having to suffer for that, but I
wouldn't, I, I think it's more

2813
03:01:55,080 --> 03:01:57,320
about the mindset here than
anything else.

2814
03:01:57,320 --> 03:02:02,040
If you think, if it's that yay,
yay, eat, drink and be marrying

2815
03:02:02,040 --> 03:02:04,560
for, you know, we'll take a few
stripes and we'll be OK.

2816
03:02:04,560 --> 03:02:07,240
That kind of passive attitude
won't cut it, right?

2817
03:02:07,680 --> 03:02:10,480
If you've made mistakes, get
them taken care of, right?

2818
03:02:10,680 --> 03:02:14,240
Repent of them, get them taken
care of, and then go forward

2819
03:02:15,680 --> 03:02:21,240
forgiven And and you know, by
all means find a righteous man.

2820
03:02:21,240 --> 03:02:23,120
And have a family.
And those sorts of things.

2821
03:02:23,120 --> 03:02:29,040
But just cause the Lord is clear
here that there is no daughters

2822
03:02:29,040 --> 03:02:31,960
of perdition, I don't think
that's a license to just

2823
03:02:32,120 --> 03:02:35,040
procrastinate the days of your
repentance away.

2824
03:02:35,480 --> 03:02:39,720
Exactly, exactly.
I do want to talk briefly about

2825
03:02:39,720 --> 03:02:44,280
this curse because, you know.
In Genesis, this is a big deal,

2826
03:02:44,280 --> 03:02:46,600
like the curse of Adam, the
curse of Eve.

2827
03:02:47,000 --> 03:02:50,680
And we, you know, especially
those of us who've been through

2828
03:02:50,680 --> 03:02:53,760
the temple ordinances, we
understand that we must consider

2829
03:02:53,760 --> 03:02:56,040
ourselves as Adam and Eve,
right?

2830
03:02:56,520 --> 03:03:03,640
And so I considering ourselves
as Adam and Eve, that kind of

2831
03:03:03,640 --> 03:03:06,760
sucks, right?
Because there's he's basically

2832
03:03:06,800 --> 03:03:08,560
implying that there's nothing
that can be done.

2833
03:03:08,560 --> 03:03:11,840
About it.
And to a point, maybe that's

2834
03:03:11,840 --> 03:03:16,160
true, but what I would say is
this is not necessarily a

2835
03:03:16,160 --> 03:03:20,480
sentencing as a, as a warning,
like, because this is kind of

2836
03:03:20,480 --> 03:03:24,360
like really a prophecy of what's
going to happen.

2837
03:03:24,360 --> 03:03:27,200
And you see it all the time.
You see women that are in these

2838
03:03:27,200 --> 03:03:33,920
like abusive relationships and
they just can't even, they're

2839
03:03:33,920 --> 03:03:36,320
just jealous all the time.
They're paranoid.

2840
03:03:36,320 --> 03:03:40,120
They're like, they're just
always fearful that their man is

2841
03:03:40,240 --> 03:03:43,840
going to cheat on them or is
going to, you know, and they're

2842
03:03:43,840 --> 03:03:50,960
just like tormented by that
desire and to control their man.

2843
03:03:51,280 --> 03:03:55,280
And you know, it's just brutal
when they have to watch their

2844
03:03:55,280 --> 03:03:59,680
man be with somebody else or
whatever, Right, right.

2845
03:04:00,120 --> 03:04:04,160
And so, but I don't, I think
that that is the natural, the

2846
03:04:04,160 --> 03:04:06,600
natural woman.
Just like the.

2847
03:04:06,600 --> 03:04:09,600
Natural man is to kind of be
lazy and let things go to pot

2848
03:04:09,600 --> 03:04:12,120
and you know you're going to get
a bunch of weeds in your garden

2849
03:04:12,120 --> 03:04:16,520
because hey, wedding takes
effort and time not enjoyable,

2850
03:04:16,520 --> 03:04:18,520
right.
So we got to overcome that that

2851
03:04:18,520 --> 03:04:23,000
curse.
And so I just, I think that this

2852
03:04:24,800 --> 03:04:28,960
I don't, and I don't know if
Brigham had that perspective to

2853
03:04:29,160 --> 03:04:33,880
it does, you know, and and
heaven forbid, I would presume

2854
03:04:33,880 --> 03:04:37,480
to have a, an insight that, you
know, that Brigham didn't have.

2855
03:04:37,480 --> 03:04:43,240
But I do think that that is a, a
true statement that that these

2856
03:04:43,240 --> 03:04:47,760
things are not a sentencing so
much as it's a it's a warning.

2857
03:04:47,760 --> 03:04:51,640
It's a that we would do very
well to heed absolutely.

2858
03:04:53,280 --> 03:04:57,560
Anyway, the and then he talks
about the the young girls trifle

2859
03:04:57,560 --> 03:04:58,800
with.
This matter you will reap sorrow

2860
03:04:58,800 --> 03:04:59,680
and.
Sore affliction.

2861
03:04:59,880 --> 03:05:02,520
When you make your choice of a
husband for time and eternity

2862
03:05:02,560 --> 03:05:05,480
and you are sure you've got your
choice, hang on to him and not

2863
03:05:05,480 --> 03:05:07,760
come to me for a bill of
divorcement which amounts to

2864
03:05:07,760 --> 03:05:10,600
nothing at all.
I've told you the only ways that

2865
03:05:10,600 --> 03:05:13,480
a woman can be freed from a man.
There are other items pertaining

2866
03:05:13,480 --> 03:05:15,440
to this doctrine you will learn
from time to time.

2867
03:05:16,240 --> 03:05:21,200
And and then he, he basically
men can commit sin and, and

2868
03:05:21,200 --> 03:05:25,520
women can commit sin.
And like we should not like this

2869
03:05:25,520 --> 03:05:27,080
is.
And I think there's a reason he

2870
03:05:27,080 --> 03:05:30,280
chose not to publish, have this
published in his lifetime.

2871
03:05:30,640 --> 03:05:36,600
It's because it could be abused
and as we've seen has been

2872
03:05:36,600 --> 03:05:41,040
abused throughout history.
We know that to me because he

2873
03:05:41,040 --> 03:05:44,840
mentions it twice here, or three
times maybe even, right?

2874
03:05:45,400 --> 03:05:49,320
The sorrow he feels with the
amount of divorces he's handing

2875
03:05:49,320 --> 03:05:51,280
out, because we do know that
Brigham.

2876
03:05:51,280 --> 03:05:54,800
Was pretty.
Liberal, if you were a woman and

2877
03:05:54,800 --> 03:05:56,600
you said, hey, I want to leave
my husband.

2878
03:05:56,600 --> 03:05:59,600
He was pretty, he was pretty
quick to do it right.

2879
03:06:01,560 --> 03:06:05,440
And so I, I think that this is
this, you know, bit of

2880
03:06:05,440 --> 03:06:09,720
revelation, if you will, and,
and advice from Brigham here, I

2881
03:06:09,720 --> 03:06:12,400
think is a a direct response to
that, right?

2882
03:06:12,400 --> 03:06:15,440
Like, oh, we're we're we're not
understanding, we're not getting

2883
03:06:15,440 --> 03:06:18,680
this.
And so maybe I need to do some

2884
03:06:18,680 --> 03:06:21,840
further explanation.
But like you said, I think I

2885
03:06:21,840 --> 03:06:25,640
think Brigham understood that
even these things have the

2886
03:06:25,640 --> 03:06:29,560
ability to be abused, right?
And his in trying to prevent

2887
03:06:29,560 --> 03:06:31,320
more divorce.
He's like, yeah, I can see where

2888
03:06:31,320 --> 03:06:35,120
that's going to get used.
And, and he was, he was, you

2889
03:06:35,120 --> 03:06:37,920
know, yeah, I, I agree.
I, I don't envy Brigham.

2890
03:06:37,920 --> 03:06:45,080
I mean, he had, he had to be in
some ways, the spiritual leader.

2891
03:06:45,080 --> 03:06:48,400
And it's not like it is today.
Right today I think if.

2892
03:06:48,400 --> 03:06:52,600
You're an LDS member.
You don't see President Nelson

2893
03:06:52,600 --> 03:06:55,160
or the Quorum of the 12 hanging
out very often, right?

2894
03:06:55,160 --> 03:06:56,840
It wasn't that way in the old
days.

2895
03:06:57,200 --> 03:07:00,760
I mean, they constantly had
people beating on their doors,

2896
03:07:00,800 --> 03:07:02,920
like, hey, I, I need to talk to
you about something.

2897
03:07:03,280 --> 03:07:06,320
So I really think this is an
outgrowth of some things Brigham

2898
03:07:06,320 --> 03:07:09,880
saw going wrong, and he was
trying to impress upon the minds

2899
03:07:09,880 --> 03:07:12,120
of those Saints.
Look, this is serious business,

2900
03:07:12,600 --> 03:07:14,800
and you don't get to just skate
by on this.

2901
03:07:15,360 --> 03:07:17,520
Understand that that there you
are.

2902
03:07:17,680 --> 03:07:23,080
You are trifling with things of
eternal consequence and as such,

2903
03:07:23,080 --> 03:07:25,920
can be dangerous unless you
approach this in the right

2904
03:07:25,920 --> 03:07:28,440
manner.
You don't want to have to

2905
03:07:28,440 --> 03:07:31,440
explain stuff.
No, no explaining Lucy.

2906
03:07:31,840 --> 03:07:34,840
It goes bad.
So yeah, absolutely.

2907
03:07:36,040 --> 03:07:39,360
So I guess just.
To kind of re, you kind of

2908
03:07:39,360 --> 03:07:43,000
touched on it, but I think it
bears repeating just you know

2909
03:07:43,040 --> 03:07:45,000
this.
Is a foreign concept I well,

2910
03:07:45,000 --> 03:07:47,160
actually no.
This is even a thing in the LDS

2911
03:07:47,160 --> 03:07:50,400
culture.
Guys that come to a girl and

2912
03:07:50,400 --> 03:07:54,880
claim revelation, hey, we're
supposed to get married, right?

2913
03:07:55,040 --> 03:07:58,320
But it it's also very common,
especially in fundamentalist

2914
03:07:58,320 --> 03:08:00,640
culture as well, where?
In a plural.

2915
03:08:00,640 --> 03:08:05,520
Situation, you know, the the guy
comes to a young lady and says,

2916
03:08:05,520 --> 03:08:09,960
hey, God told me that you belong
in my family or whatever.

2917
03:08:10,600 --> 03:08:14,080
And and so my advice to LDS.
And.

2918
03:08:14,120 --> 03:08:18,800
Fundamentalist people, young
women and young men everywhere.

2919
03:08:19,360 --> 03:08:23,280
If somebody comes and starts
saying that stuff, that's a huge

2920
03:08:23,280 --> 03:08:25,720
red flag.
Run the other direction.

2921
03:08:26,400 --> 03:08:29,800
Or at least you know, if there's
if it is somewhat consensual,

2922
03:08:29,800 --> 03:08:31,960
like if it's something that
you've maybe already had

2923
03:08:31,960 --> 03:08:36,680
feelings and and would be
interested just naturally, like

2924
03:08:36,720 --> 03:08:38,840
without compulsory means, like
just your if you want to

2925
03:08:38,840 --> 03:08:41,520
exercise your agency, but go to
God.

2926
03:08:41,920 --> 03:08:46,600
Don't ever take somebody else's
revelation or or word for for

2927
03:08:46,600 --> 03:08:51,160
this or that.
Like you know, we we can't just

2928
03:08:52,520 --> 03:08:57,920
outsource our responsibility to
no, no.

2929
03:08:58,480 --> 03:09:03,960
And look, fellas, you young men,
don't be that guy.

2930
03:09:04,120 --> 03:09:08,840
That is not a good look.
You you should.

2931
03:09:08,840 --> 03:09:12,080
Never.
You should never feign

2932
03:09:12,840 --> 03:09:14,880
revelation.
Unless.

2933
03:09:15,320 --> 03:09:18,040
It is revelation, and even then.
I'm not sure I'd bring it up.

2934
03:09:18,480 --> 03:09:20,640
Right.
I would probably just put that

2935
03:09:20,640 --> 03:09:22,520
in the back pocket because it's
not a great look.

2936
03:09:22,960 --> 03:09:24,840
It's not a great look.
So.

2937
03:09:24,840 --> 03:09:27,400
And yet you're right, it does
happen in the LDS church as

2938
03:09:27,400 --> 03:09:33,840
well, too.
I we still hear about it and BYU

2939
03:09:33,840 --> 03:09:37,040
of all places, but weird.
Yeah, BYU.

2940
03:09:37,560 --> 03:09:40,240
So anyway, yeah.
No, I agree 100.

2941
03:09:40,240 --> 03:09:43,440
Percent.
Don't get your own revelation

2942
03:09:43,440 --> 03:09:47,080
and don't be that guy.
So perfect.

2943
03:09:48,680 --> 03:09:53,560
Anything else?
You know, I guess just had been

2944
03:09:53,560 --> 03:09:55,360
talking about the
responsibility.

2945
03:09:55,360 --> 03:09:57,240
The last thing I'll say on that
is.

2946
03:09:58,600 --> 03:10:03,960
You know, Oliver was promised by
God the gift of translating the

2947
03:10:03,960 --> 03:10:08,440
Book of Mormon and but in
section was eight or nine, he

2948
03:10:08,440 --> 03:10:11,680
gets rebuked and I was like,
well, you just thought all you

2949
03:10:11,680 --> 03:10:13,280
had to do was.
Ask and I would just tell you.

2950
03:10:13,280 --> 03:10:16,560
Everything like, no, it's not
how it works, right?

2951
03:10:17,040 --> 03:10:20,920
And so I that to me, that's
really fascinating as a, as a

2952
03:10:20,920 --> 03:10:28,720
principle, because it's, it just
puts that responsibility on us

2953
03:10:29,040 --> 03:10:30,440
to go.
To the.

2954
03:10:30,440 --> 03:10:32,920
Lord and and.
Study it out in our minds.

2955
03:10:33,040 --> 03:10:36,480
What does that what does that
look like in a, you know,

2956
03:10:36,560 --> 03:10:40,560
marriage decision context?
Well, probably means go on some

2957
03:10:40,560 --> 03:10:42,640
dates recording whatever you
want to call it.

2958
03:10:42,640 --> 03:10:45,200
You know, certain cultures don't
like dating because it seems

2959
03:10:45,280 --> 03:10:47,160
it's like a, a worldly word or
whatever.

2960
03:10:47,440 --> 03:10:50,040
Whatever the case may be,
though, you need to get to know

2961
03:10:50,040 --> 03:10:52,200
this person.
If you just, if you just go and

2962
03:10:52,200 --> 03:10:54,280
you ask God, Hey, should I marry
so and so?

2963
03:10:54,720 --> 03:10:56,120
And you, you don't know who they
are.

2964
03:10:56,120 --> 03:10:59,080
You don't know what their
character like, what their

2965
03:10:59,080 --> 03:11:02,000
values are like.
And you're just so you're just

2966
03:11:02,000 --> 03:11:06,040
basically expecting asking God
to take away your agency and

2967
03:11:06,040 --> 03:11:09,440
choose for you.
God kind of doesn't appreciate

2968
03:11:09,440 --> 03:11:11,600
that.
So let's put in the work.

2969
03:11:11,600 --> 03:11:15,800
Let's do our our due diligence.
We can't just ask him, expect

2970
03:11:15,800 --> 03:11:19,800
him to to tell us what to do.
You know, we need to put in the

2971
03:11:19,800 --> 03:11:24,400
work, get to know people, you
know, have positive, healthy

2972
03:11:24,400 --> 03:11:29,800
social interactions.
And then once you know

2973
03:11:30,200 --> 03:11:33,280
somebody's character, once you
are at least some pretty

2974
03:11:33,280 --> 03:11:36,960
confident that you know who they
are or what they value, what,

2975
03:11:37,240 --> 03:11:40,680
what type of a husband or wife
or spouse or father, father or

2976
03:11:40,680 --> 03:11:43,000
mother, Like because you're not
just making this choice for you

2977
03:11:43,000 --> 03:11:45,360
personally, this is going to
impact your children,

2978
03:11:45,360 --> 03:11:47,680
grandchildren.
Like this is this is important.

2979
03:11:48,120 --> 03:11:52,560
And you know, there are stories
and I'm not judging 'cause maybe

2980
03:11:52,560 --> 03:11:57,000
they did get revelation, but it
does make me, it gives me pause

2981
03:11:57,120 --> 03:12:00,600
when I hear stories like oh so
and so and so and so, yeah,

2982
03:12:00,600 --> 03:12:03,520
they're married or they're,
they're engaged 'cause they

2983
03:12:03,520 --> 03:12:05,840
courted for two weeks or like 2
days.

2984
03:12:06,480 --> 03:12:13,600
And I'm just like, wow, I again,
maybe they were inspired, maybe

2985
03:12:13,600 --> 03:12:16,320
they got that revelation, and
maybe that was the will of God.

2986
03:12:16,320 --> 03:12:18,200
For them in their lives I am not
in.

2987
03:12:18,200 --> 03:12:22,720
A position to judge that, but I
know that I'm not going to be

2988
03:12:22,720 --> 03:12:27,480
recommending my kids do that
because I just, I, I just think

2989
03:12:27,480 --> 03:12:31,960
that that invites or it, it, it
leaves far too much opportunity

2990
03:12:32,240 --> 03:12:38,360
for poor decisions to be made
that you know, then there's

2991
03:12:38,360 --> 03:12:41,560
consequences and shenanigans,
shenanigans.

2992
03:12:41,680 --> 03:12:42,760
This is the word you're looking
for.

2993
03:12:43,440 --> 03:12:45,920
There you go.
So so look I.

2994
03:12:47,000 --> 03:12:50,440
This is where where you know the
the rubber meets the road a

2995
03:12:50,440 --> 03:12:54,080
little bit on revelation, right?
And I would say this to the

2996
03:12:54,080 --> 03:12:56,280
younger segment of the audience
that's listening.

2997
03:12:56,720 --> 03:12:59,360
Get to know what the voice of
the Lord sounds like.

2998
03:12:59,760 --> 03:13:03,720
Get to know what the spirit
sounds like so that when you do

2999
03:13:03,720 --> 03:13:07,960
need that revelation, you can be
assured that you are getting

3000
03:13:07,960 --> 03:13:09,680
your information from the
correct source.

3001
03:13:11,040 --> 03:13:20,920
Next I I would say this because
I don't want to take away we

3002
03:13:20,920 --> 03:13:25,880
have a rich history and it's a
history I believe to be true of

3003
03:13:26,360 --> 03:13:27,960
men.
Being called to things.

3004
03:13:27,960 --> 03:13:30,880
By, you know, a leader just
looking at them, right?

3005
03:13:31,320 --> 03:13:34,960
Those things happen.
And look, I'll be honest, I knew

3006
03:13:34,960 --> 03:13:38,200
I was going to marry my wife
after one date, right?

3007
03:13:38,200 --> 03:13:43,040
And I was the guy most less
likely to to to ever be in that

3008
03:13:43,040 --> 03:13:47,160
position at that time.
That doesn't mean you actually

3009
03:13:47,160 --> 03:13:50,160
married her the next day or no.
I did not marry her the next

3010
03:13:50,160 --> 03:13:50,680
day.
No.

3011
03:13:50,680 --> 03:13:53,520
Nor did I go to her and say hey
I.

3012
03:13:53,520 --> 03:13:57,360
Got this funny feeling?
I was not that guy, right?

3013
03:13:57,360 --> 03:13:59,240
I kept that very close to the
chest.

3014
03:14:01,800 --> 03:14:05,160
So I don't want to take away
those moments because I do think

3015
03:14:05,160 --> 03:14:07,840
they're real.
However, I I do want to refer.

3016
03:14:07,840 --> 03:14:12,240
Something back to.
An older gentleman I I once kind

3017
03:14:12,240 --> 03:14:15,480
of was tutored by in the LDS
Church during my early days as a

3018
03:14:15,480 --> 03:14:18,200
Mormon.
We were talking about the nature

3019
03:14:18,200 --> 03:14:26,280
of revelation and he said, Dave,
you should never apply this car.

3020
03:14:26,280 --> 03:14:29,080
Blanc, right, You shouldn't.
Just apply this to all things

3021
03:14:29,520 --> 03:14:31,720
because you got to leave.
Room for those sudden strokes

3022
03:14:31,720 --> 03:14:34,840
of.
Revelation that do come, but

3023
03:14:34,840 --> 03:14:38,400
often times good information
makes for good revelation.

3024
03:14:40,120 --> 03:14:43,160
And I think this is one of those
times where that definitely

3025
03:14:43,160 --> 03:14:45,840
applies, right?
The more you know about.

3026
03:14:45,840 --> 03:14:47,360
Someone's character, the more
you.

3027
03:14:47,360 --> 03:14:51,960
Know them, right And that is
very important when you're

3028
03:14:51,960 --> 03:14:53,360
you're making these sorts of
things.

3029
03:14:53,360 --> 03:14:56,680
So yeah.
And ultimately you need to

3030
03:14:56,680 --> 03:14:59,080
actually.
So going back to Section 8 or

3031
03:14:59,080 --> 03:15:01,880
section 9, I think it's Section
8, it talks about how.

3032
03:15:02,280 --> 03:15:06,400
You must study it out in your
mind and basically make a

3033
03:15:06,400 --> 03:15:10,360
choice, right?
Make a decision and then you

3034
03:15:10,360 --> 03:15:16,400
take your decision to the Lord
and that point he will either

3035
03:15:16,400 --> 03:15:19,880
give you the stupor of thought
or the bring in the bosom as a

3036
03:15:19,880 --> 03:15:22,840
yes or a no kind of you can
calibrate at that point.

3037
03:15:23,160 --> 03:15:28,440
And so like, I think that that's
another really kind of important

3038
03:15:28,440 --> 03:15:31,800
and easily neglected or
forgotten or, you know, whatever

3039
03:15:31,800 --> 03:15:39,680
principle, which is that we need
to make sure that we are not

3040
03:15:39,680 --> 03:15:45,600
asking God to choose for us that
we are not just mailing it in.

3041
03:15:45,600 --> 03:15:48,120
And and just.
Not putting in the work like we

3042
03:15:48,120 --> 03:15:52,520
need to actually go to the
effort of making the absolute

3043
03:15:52,520 --> 03:15:55,480
best judgement that we are
capable of.

3044
03:15:55,920 --> 03:16:00,480
And then after all that we have
after, after we put in that work

3045
03:16:00,480 --> 03:16:04,040
and done all that we can do,
then we stand still and wait for

3046
03:16:04,040 --> 03:16:05,600
the hand of God to be made
manifest.

3047
03:16:05,600 --> 03:16:09,480
Like, you know, Yeah, you pray
for rain while you're digging

3048
03:16:09,480 --> 03:16:11,000
the well.
Absolutely.

3049
03:16:11,560 --> 03:16:13,680
You know, you got to, you got to
do the work.

3050
03:16:13,960 --> 03:16:15,800
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

3051
03:16:16,360 --> 03:16:18,400
No, I think that's good advice.
And and.

3052
03:16:19,200 --> 03:16:23,120
Again, just.
Do the little things right, get

3053
03:16:23,200 --> 03:16:26,360
get ready to hear the Lord,
learn what that feels like, what

3054
03:16:26,360 --> 03:16:30,040
that sounds like, and then put
in some effort on getting to

3055
03:16:30,040 --> 03:16:34,240
know the other person, right.
And that's going to be different

3056
03:16:34,240 --> 03:16:36,600
depend, you know, that's going
to look and feel a little bit

3057
03:16:36,600 --> 03:16:40,280
different depending on where you
are in in your time of life,

3058
03:16:40,280 --> 03:16:43,520
right?
I mean, look, with Amber, it was

3059
03:16:43,520 --> 03:16:51,640
very much youth in exuberance
right when Tanya came along.

3060
03:16:52,360 --> 03:16:57,880
I was less in the mode.
Of, you know, that same kind of

3061
03:16:57,880 --> 03:17:03,160
youth in exuberance, right?
This was a more reasoned, I

3062
03:17:03,160 --> 03:17:06,400
guess, approach that I took
before I asked, right?

3063
03:17:06,400 --> 03:17:08,240
Less, less hormonal?
Yes.

3064
03:17:08,360 --> 03:17:08,920
Yes.
That's.

3065
03:17:08,920 --> 03:17:10,920
That's what I was going for.
That's a good way of putting it.

3066
03:17:10,920 --> 03:17:12,760
I didn't think it like through
like that.

3067
03:17:13,080 --> 03:17:15,400
It was more like.
Can she stand?

3068
03:17:15,400 --> 03:17:18,240
Me for more than about six hours
at a time right.

3069
03:17:18,440 --> 03:17:22,920
Like, you know, does does she
understand what she's getting

3070
03:17:22,920 --> 03:17:25,000
into And those and those sorts
of things, right?

3071
03:17:25,640 --> 03:17:30,000
But, and, and these are big
things and these are, you know,

3072
03:17:30,000 --> 03:17:33,200
important things, things of
eternal consequence.

3073
03:17:33,960 --> 03:17:38,960
But I don't want want it to get
lost that these are exciting

3074
03:17:38,960 --> 03:17:42,480
things, right?
Like don't forget to enjoy the

3075
03:17:42,480 --> 03:17:45,520
process.
So often I think we get hyper

3076
03:17:45,520 --> 03:17:49,280
fixated on the goal and that's,
that's, you know, to have the

3077
03:17:49,280 --> 03:17:54,400
goal in mind is always, always
important and good.

3078
03:17:55,200 --> 03:17:58,000
But sometimes you got to enjoy
the process, right.

3079
03:17:58,560 --> 03:18:01,800
And so we've talked about some
heavy things, but again, just

3080
03:18:02,440 --> 03:18:05,640
take a step back, breathe deep
and enjoy this process because

3081
03:18:05,640 --> 03:18:08,160
they are magical moments and
they don't come around often.

3082
03:18:08,560 --> 03:18:10,360
So enjoy the time you got there
with them.

3083
03:18:11,360 --> 03:18:12,920
Amen.
Awesome.

3084
03:18:13,280 --> 03:18:15,600
Well, dude, this was good stuff.
I appreciate it.

3085
03:18:16,120 --> 03:18:17,680
Yeah.
Well, thank you.

3086
03:18:17,840 --> 03:18:21,800
For.
Making me take the when nobody

3087
03:18:21,800 --> 03:18:25,720
else.
I did it because I tried.

3088
03:18:26,280 --> 03:18:27,080
Right.
I mean.

3089
03:18:27,480 --> 03:18:30,360
This, this was a touchy enough
one that I'm like, yeah, we

3090
03:18:30,360 --> 03:18:32,520
need.
We need some folks with some

3091
03:18:32,520 --> 03:18:38,680
chops so well, I I hope it's
it's, you know, I hope there's

3092
03:18:38,680 --> 03:18:40,680
some interesting things.
I hope it's been kind of

3093
03:18:40,680 --> 03:18:43,360
humorous and but.
Also the main goal.

3094
03:18:43,360 --> 03:18:46,520
I sure hope that people come
away from this conversation

3095
03:18:47,360 --> 03:18:53,880
want, wanting to having having,
having new insight and how they

3096
03:18:54,000 --> 03:18:57,560
can and should live law of
chastity and wanting, desiring

3097
03:18:57,920 --> 03:18:59,880
to do better at it.
That's absolutely.

3098
03:19:00,360 --> 03:19:03,440
It's not about the info, it's
about the transformation.

3099
03:19:03,720 --> 03:19:06,040
Absolutely, absolutely.
And if.

3100
03:19:06,040 --> 03:19:08,400
I'm wrong about the modesty.
Thing like that's not.

3101
03:19:08,920 --> 03:19:11,040
It's something I have looked at
quite.

3102
03:19:11,040 --> 03:19:12,960
A bit, but it's not it's I,
certainly.

3103
03:19:12,960 --> 03:19:17,600
Wouldn't consider myself like an
expert or authority, but yeah,

3104
03:19:17,600 --> 03:19:22,600
if anybody can prove me wrong,
please do absolutely no it'll be

3105
03:19:22,600 --> 03:19:27,400
it'll be good so and look the
guests never get the hate mail

3106
03:19:27,600 --> 03:19:29,080
I'm.
The one that gets the hate mail.

3107
03:19:29,440 --> 03:19:32,200
So so you forward it over.
I want to share that if it

3108
03:19:32,200 --> 03:19:35,840
comes, dude, I'm saving it up
for a book when I'm all done,

3109
03:19:36,080 --> 03:19:37,880
when I'm all done with this
podcast, I'm.

3110
03:19:37,920 --> 03:19:40,400
Just going to, you know, wrap it
all up in a bow.

3111
03:19:40,960 --> 03:19:43,400
And there's going to be a book
and it's just it's going to be

3112
03:19:43,400 --> 03:19:46,400
called All the right people have
all the right things to say

3113
03:19:46,400 --> 03:19:48,480
about Dave.
And it's just going to be the

3114
03:19:48,480 --> 03:19:50,840
most witty hate mail I've ever
got.

3115
03:19:50,840 --> 03:19:54,600
So all I'm saying is if you're
out there and you're one of

3116
03:19:54,600 --> 03:19:56,760
those that feel apartment to do
that, just make it witty.

3117
03:19:56,760 --> 03:20:00,680
There is a bar here at which I'm
judging this, so just know it

3118
03:20:00,680 --> 03:20:02,560
could be published later.
So if you're going to do it,

3119
03:20:02,880 --> 03:20:06,960
just do it right.
So but anyway, dude, hang out

3120
03:20:06,960 --> 03:20:08,760
for 5 minutes.
All right, All right, sounds

3121
03:20:08,760 --> 03:20:09,600
good.
Thanks, Dave.

3122
03:20:09,960 --> 03:20:37,840
Bye everybody.
The.