Episode #162: Converting To Orthodox Mormonism W/Felipe & Merilynne Cervantes

1
00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,160
One of the things we all need is
disciples of Christ is

2
00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,840
fellowship with others.
This isn't only because we want

3
00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,720
to just hang out with other
people like us, but because we

4
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:11,400
each have a unique story to
tell.

5
00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,120
One of the things that is so
vitally important to hear from

6
00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,600
others is how they got to where
they are in their spiritual

7
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,400
journeys.
There are things in those

8
00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,240
stories that remind us of why it
is we believe the things that we

9
00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:23,520
believe.
This episode definitely falls

10
00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,600
into that category as I sit down
and have a conversation with

11
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,800
Felipe and Mary Lynn and how
they came to be converted to the

12
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,640
Orthodox teachings of Mormonism.
We cover Mary Lynn's upbringing

13
00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,920
in Utah as a fully active member
of the LDS Church, her time in

14
00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,880
college, and on a mission.
We then go and hear from Felipe

15
00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,960
as he journeyed from being a
Catholic to a member of the LDS

16
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,120
Church and then to being
introduced by Orthodox Mormon

17
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,720
teachings.
Shout out to his sister Danielle

18
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,720
and how Felipe and Marilyn grew
together while studying those

19
00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,480
early Mormon teachings.
We cover how their families

20
00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,680
reacted to their conversion and
what their experiences have been

21
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,320
while living a Mormon Orthodox
lifestyle.

22
00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,120
Get ready to have your faith.
Bolstered by listening to their

23
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,760
story that much, much more on
this episode of the Mormon

24
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,400
Renegade Podcast.
So a few weeks back I told you.

25
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,320
About a new online merch store I
was putting.

26
00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:15,760
Together and that I would let.
You know, as soon as that was up

27
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,080
and running, well, after a few
weeks of working on designs and

28
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,160
testing it out personally, we're
ready to launch.

29
00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,880
So if you go to
mormonrenegade.com and click on

30
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,400
the Renegade supply button in
the top right of the landing

31
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,760
page or click the link in this
episode show notes, you'll see

32
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,480
that we have 16 items right now
that you can choose from.

33
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,600
We have shirts, hats, bags,
cups, and water bottles all with

34
00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,400
the Mormon Renegade logo, as
well as a couple other designs

35
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,760
that I think you'll find really
funny and maybe even one where I

36
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,120
take a slight shot at BYU, But
you should definitely go check

37
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:46,480
that.
Out.

38
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,520
Now, this is just the beginning.
In the coming weeks, more

39
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,960
designs and styles will be
available for purchase.

40
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,400
Now all the.
Proceeds I get from this are

41
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,320
going to go right back into the
podcast, so head on over to

42
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,160
mormonrenegade.com and press the
Renegade supply button or click

43
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,320
the link in this episode show
notes and get yours today.

44
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,600
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

45
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,680
Guys, it's been a hot minute
since we talked last.

46
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:46,520
Yes, it's.
Been a bit.

47
00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:49,400
Been a bit, why don't you
introduce yourselves real quick?

48
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,240
I'll start.
My name is Marilyn Cervantes,

49
00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:59,560
and this is my husband, Felipe.
Yeah, we've been married for six

50
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,520
years.
We just celebrated our sixth

51
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,280
year anniversary a couple weeks
ago, just right after

52
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,280
Thanksgiving.
And we have a cute dog.

53
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:09,640
I don't know what else to say
about us.

54
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,600
No, you look, I, I can remember
when I was married six years now

55
00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:20,840
this November, it was 29 for
Amber and I, but I, I remember

56
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,800
those years.
I remember, I remember that.

57
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,960
So how's how's life been
treating you guys?

58
00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,760
It's been great.
Love Utah, I miss California,

59
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:37,200
but I enjoyed the Utah winter
and just working trying to get

60
00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,880
back to school, trying to get my
our lives back in order.

61
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,360
Hopefully you can get a house
next year or in two years.

62
00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,800
You know how the house marketing
it is right now.

63
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,600
But yeah.
Yeah, no, I hear you.

64
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,200
Well, look, I brought you guys
on because quite frankly, I'm

65
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,880
always interested because
because I came from being a

66
00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,920
place where I was not a Mormon
at all, became LDS and then

67
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,640
ended up becoming a
fundamentalist, right.

68
00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,080
So I'm kind of a sucker for
origin stories to begin with,

69
00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:12,560
but especially those that have
like seismic implications,

70
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,920
right?
And, and as I, as I met you guys

71
00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,399
previously, we had talked, I
could tell that that, that, that

72
00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:22,120
you guys had been through some
of that.

73
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,160
And so that's what we're going
to talk about today, because I

74
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,800
think that that sometimes, no
matter what church or religion

75
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,160
you're in, you kind of just
start to do stuff because that's

76
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,560
what we do, right?
Mormonism is big on that, right?

77
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,200
And that's a good thing, right?
There is, I believe there is

78
00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,200
something to the old ideology of
you fake it till you make it.

79
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,960
But at some point you got to
start feeling things, right?

80
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,960
And, and I think these kind of,
of accounts and these kinds of,

81
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,200
of stories that that have
happened are, are, are a good

82
00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,200
way of getting that done.
So real quick.

83
00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,720
Sorry, Felipe, we're going
ladies first.

84
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,040
She has a pioneer blood.
Yeah, yeah.

85
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,840
Let's start with you.
I mean, were you born Mormon at

86
00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:09,000
all?
Yes.

87
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,680
So I come from, like you said,
pioneer blood.

88
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,840
I come from a long stock of
members of the church.

89
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,600
I have ancestors that joined the
church in 1830.

90
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,360
My, I have, let's see, I, I, one
of my grandpas, great grandpas

91
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,640
was Thomas Grover, if that might
ring a bell with some people.

92
00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:38,360
And I, yeah, I was born in the
church, born and raised.

93
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:44,280
I have my whole family,
grandparents, all members.

94
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,360
So yeah, I was born and raised
in the church, Loved it.

95
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,720
So were you guys always active
in your family?

96
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,200
Yeah, yeah.
We never had a time where we

97
00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,760
were didn't go to church.
My dad was always big on

98
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,440
keeping, keeping the Sabbath day
holy.

99
00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,440
So we wouldn't go out to eat on
Sundays.

100
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,840
We wouldn't go out bike riding
on Sundays.

101
00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:07,560
We wouldn't go out and really do
much on Sundays other than just

102
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,040
be with the family and go to
church.

103
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,320
We'd have like activities as a
family on Sunday.

104
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,160
We'd watch church movies on
Sunday.

105
00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,080
I mean, I'm a lot more not as
strict anymore nowadays, but

106
00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,120
that was kind of our how it was
growing up.

107
00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,440
And then I mean, I went to Young
Women's every every week.

108
00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,400
I was a very, very active youth
child and youth in the church.

109
00:06:32,840 --> 00:06:35,200
Did you enjoy that?
I did.

110
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,400
I had a lot of friends.
Like, I mean, I grew up in

111
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:42,400
Farmington, Utah.
All of my neighbors were people

112
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,360
in my ward.
Yeah.

113
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,040
And, and it was, and like the,
the people that weren't members

114
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,480
were like it was rare, but I
mean, they were there and we

115
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,880
knew who they were.
But it was like, oh, that

116
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,120
everybody else is a member.
Why aren't you kind of thing as

117
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,480
a as a mentality, as a child.
It's like, why aren't they part

118
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,160
of us?
Right, because that's all you

119
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:04,920
know, right?
You're kind of Yeah, You were,

120
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,800
you were raised in Utah, right?
You were raised in that bubble,

121
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:09,760
right?
Yep.

122
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,960
So did you end up going on a
mission, anything like that?

123
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,560
I mean, what was high school
like for you?

124
00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,760
That sort of stuff.
So high school, all of my

125
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,800
friends were basically members.
I think I, there was a few

126
00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,200
classmates I knew of that
weren't members of the church,

127
00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,800
but I wasn't really like, I was
more acquaintances with them

128
00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,200
because all of my friends were
members and we'd, all of the

129
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,520
friends that I hung out with.
We went to girls camp together.

130
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,360
So high school was fun.
I enjoyed it a lot.

131
00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:46,920
And I was, I mean, I did a lot
of fun things, but just with

132
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,400
young women's I, I became like,
I served in church callings in

133
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,120
young women's as like in the
presidencies in the council's of

134
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,240
the young women's groups.
And then yes, I did end up going

135
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,640
on a mission.
I remember when I was 19, so the

136
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:10,040
age was 21 to go on missions.
And when I was 19, that's when I

137
00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,640
think it was President Monson
came out with the we're with the

138
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,680
whole, we're changing the age
for men from 19 to 18 and women

139
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:24,080
from 21 to to 19.
And I was like, I'm 19, I could

140
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,520
go right now.
And that was like kind of scary

141
00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,840
because I was like, I thought I
had like a whole nother year and

142
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,200
a half.
So, so a mission was on.

143
00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,000
It was was something you felt
like you were going to do, even

144
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,559
if you had to wait till you were
21.

145
00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,039
Yes, yeah, it's something ever
since I was a little girl like

146
00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:45,560
that we've seen in primary, I
hope they call me on a mission

147
00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:49,840
and and I was like all through
my teenage years, like I'm going

148
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,000
to go on a mission.
I mean, there was no question in

149
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,760
my mind that I wasn't going to
go on a mission.

150
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,600
Interesting, because like and
and correct me if I'm wrong

151
00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,080
here, right, Because I didn't
grow up in the culture, right?

152
00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,520
I, I was, I was like 817 or 18
when I joined the church.

153
00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,600
And so, and in those days they,
they, while they certainly

154
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,040
welcomed sisters into the
mission field, it was one of

155
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,080
those things where it was like,
Are you sure that's what you

156
00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:15,680
want to do?
Because like the plan when I was

157
00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:19,000
first coming into the church, it
seemed for the young women was

158
00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:23,400
OK, you now are out of high
school, go to BYU and get your

159
00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,960
Mrs. degree, right.
That was kind of the, that was

160
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,960
kind of the fast track to, to
what was happening that that

161
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,960
never appealed to you at all.
I mean, the whole Mrs. degree,

162
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,560
yeah, of course you want to get
married, but it it was more like

163
00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:39,520
I'll just do that later.
I mean, I did go to BYU Idaho,

164
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,040
but.
That's like Mormon Taliban

165
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:43,640
country.
They're like really strict up

166
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:44,600
there.
I mean.

167
00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,000
Oh yeah, yeah, no beards, have
to wear no capris, at least.

168
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,000
I don't know what it is now, but
yeah, you had to wear jeans on

169
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,480
campus or no pyjamas in class.
It was.

170
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,000
It's very strict up there.
I, I heard that like Provo would

171
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,000
Look North and be like, bro, you
got to slow down right?

172
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,280
Like they, they, they were big
on BYU Idaho.

173
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,040
They were, they were big up
there, man.

174
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:10,600
They they, they went for it
hard.

175
00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,720
So.
Yeah, so, so did you go to

176
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,360
college at all first or did you
just go straight into the

177
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,320
Michigan?
So, so I was actually a freshman

178
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,000
in school when the announcement
came out.

179
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,600
It was my second semester
because I'm pretty sure it was

180
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,640
spring and I just turned 19.
So I went to a whole year of

181
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,200
school.
And I remember I was like

182
00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:39,160
praying to Heavenly Father,
like, should I go now?

183
00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,560
Like I wasn't planning.
I was going planning on like

184
00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:45,560
going to a couple more years of
school and then and then going,

185
00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:47,800
but should I go now?
And I got this strong

186
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,640
impression, yes, you will go,
but not yet.

187
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,480
So I actually ended up going
about a year later I left.

188
00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:03,680
So that was that was in April of
2012 when that announcement came

189
00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,080
out.
And then I ended up leaving

190
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:16,680
February of 2014.
So I was almost 21 when I left.

191
00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:20,680
I was couple months shy of 20.
No, sorry.

192
00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:22,840
I was a couple months shy of 20
when I was 20 when I left

193
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,200
because my birthday is in April.
So I had literally like just

194
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,240
turned 19 when that announcement
came out.

195
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:37,280
So yeah, so I ended up I, I, I
got the feeling not yet.

196
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,680
And so about a year and a half
later is actually when I started

197
00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:47,120
working on my papers in the fall
of 2013, worked on my papers,

198
00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,480
got them all submitted.
And I remember thinking to

199
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,800
myself, you know, I want to, I
want to learn the language.

200
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,200
I don't care where I go, but I,
I want to learn a language.

201
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,720
And that was like the biggest
thing to me.

202
00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,480
I didn't, I was like, I want to
speak language.

203
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:08,400
So in October of 2013 is when I
got my call to serve in the San

204
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,600
Diego, CA Spanish speaking
mission.

205
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,680
And I, I remember when I opened
my letter, I was like, I kind of

206
00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:16,960
had, it was a little sad because
it said San Diego.

207
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,160
And I was like, Dang it, it's
going to be English.

208
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,280
So, so did you have somewhere
else you wanted to go?

209
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,080
I mean, was there, was there
ever a place like you looked on

210
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,920
the map and you're like, Oh
yeah, that's my spot.

211
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,880
No, I just wanted to speak a
language, that's all.

212
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,760
That's.
It you just wanted to be

213
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,920
bilingual, that was it, right?
OK.

214
00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:40,800
So I open it up and it says I'm
it first, first start, start

215
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,400
First off says where you're
gonna go.

216
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,440
It doesn't.
And then later on is when it

217
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:45,840
said you will be Spanish
speaking.

218
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,960
So I'm reading it and it says
San Diego and my mind goes, oh,

219
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,080
it's gonna be English speaking.
And then I keep reading and it

220
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,240
says you'll, you will serve in
the Spanish language.

221
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,960
You will go to the Mexico MTC.
And I was like, I get to speak

222
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:03,120
Spanish and leave the country
and come back to the country.

223
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,160
So you were pretty jacked up for
that.

224
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,240
Yeah, and then everybody, when
they heard I was going to San

225
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,400
Diego, they're like, you're not
going on a mission, you're going

226
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,960
on a vacation.
That's pretty funny.

227
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,720
So.
So what was the MTC like in

228
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,000
Mexico?
Oh, it was a blast.

229
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,040
It was like, oh, I enjoyed it so
much.

230
00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:32,240
They, I remember we got there
and they were having to speak

231
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,840
Spanish from day one.
And I remember them telling us

232
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,320
on day two, you're gonna speak,
teach your first lesson in

233
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,160
Spanish.
And we're like, and they're like

234
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,760
to an investigator.
And we were like, what?

235
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,160
No, we don't speak this
language.

236
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,080
You're wanting us to teach our
first lesson on Day 2 in Spanish

237
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:58,880
to an investigator.
Turns out the investigator was

238
00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,240
our teacher.
We just didn't know that yet.

239
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:04,760
OK, all right, so it.
Wasn't, wasn't, it wasn't a

240
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,400
real, I mean, it was a real
person.

241
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,920
They cause the teachers based
off who they were as

242
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,240
investigators based off of real
people in their lives.

243
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:17,760
So, so it was a real person, but
it was our teacher, so one we

244
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:19,360
couldn't mess up with pretty
much.

245
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:26,320
And I remember we went into that
first lesson on day 2 and we

246
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,280
have our little like, they gave
us little Spanish workbooks of

247
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,560
like phrases, common phrases,
you could say.

248
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,040
So we took that into the, I
mean, we prepared, but we're

249
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,440
like, we don't speak this
language.

250
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,640
So we took in our little
workbooks, and we're reading

251
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,480
phrases to him.
And then he asks us a question

252
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,120
of like, what about the apostles
or something like that?

253
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,760
And we're like, we read a phrase
from the book, and we're like,

254
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,400
yeah.
And then he's like, he asked the

255
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:56,720
question again.
And then we read the phrase

256
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:57,480
again.
We're like, yeah, do you

257
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,280
understand?
And then another thing that's

258
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,160
funny too, is when we were
preparing the lesson, we didn't

259
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,240
know at the time that Santiago
in Spanish was James.

260
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,800
And so, you know, in the first
vision.

261
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,040
Hey, don't do that 'cause I'm
just finding that out right now.

262
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,440
Like I was 58 years old when I
found out Santiago was James.

263
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,440
So don't.
Don't sweat that.

264
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,600
OK, anyway, so you know, in the
when you're teaching the first

265
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,000
vision of like Joseph Smith and
you talk about James 15, the

266
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,000
scripture he read.
So when we were preparing for

267
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,080
the lesson, we're like, oh, we
need to have James 1/5.

268
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,520
So we were like, oh, James is
Juan.

269
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:41,800
Yeah.
James is Juan.

270
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,520
Yeah, it's not.
James is not so.

271
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,440
So we don't know what the
scripture says.

272
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,800
We don't speak Spanish.
And we went in to this lesson

273
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,560
and we were talking about Joseph
Smith and we read John 1/5 to

274
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,600
this, this this investigator,
investigator.

275
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,760
And we were like, and because of
the scripture, Joseph Smith

276
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:09,760
decided to go pray.
Come to find out, like 3 weeks

277
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:15,160
into the MTC, my companion and I
are studying in the lunch room,

278
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,520
eating lunch.
And she's she's looking at her

279
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,760
workbook and she's studying and
she's like, Santiago is James.

280
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,480
And I look at her and I'm like,
OK.

281
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,000
And then I go, Oh my gosh.
And we realized three weeks into

282
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,880
our journey in the MTC that the
very first lesson we had taught,

283
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:37,000
we had read the wrong scripture.
And granted, John 15 is not a

284
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,760
bad scripture.
It basically says in the

285
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,240
darkness comprehended the light
not or something like that,

286
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,640
something to that effect.
But that was not asking you or

287
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,520
whatever.
James 15 says it was not the

288
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,320
right scripture.
So at six weeks into the MTC,

289
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,280
which is the last week, we went
up to our teacher and we're

290
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,200
like, do you remember that first
lesson where we we quoted the

291
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,320
wrong scripture to you?
And he was like, yeah, I do

292
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:02,680
remember.
I'm like, we're like, how could

293
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,480
you not laugh at us in that
moment?

294
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,640
He's like, sisters that I would
never laugh at you.

295
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:12,119
And we were like, aw, thank you.
OK so so the MTC was awesome.

296
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,480
What was your mission like?
It was, it had its ups and

297
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,680
downs.
Honestly, I, I loved it and

298
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:24,760
wouldn't, wouldn't trade it for
anything, but I had moments of

299
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:31,920
like really hard time.
Like I feel that I never got to

300
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,480
see one of my investigators get
baptized, which was hard on me.

301
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,680
But I know I planted a lot of
seeds and you know, someone who

302
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,320
was 100% converted on their
mission wasn't me.

303
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:53,080
I was, I, I remember I would
testify, oh, before that I

304
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,040
learned a lot.
I learned I got good at Spanish.

305
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,200
I can still speak Spanish to
this day thanks to the gift of

306
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,040
tongues.
So that was the gift of tongues

307
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:03,520
is real.
God will bless you and help you

308
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,480
when you're trying to learn a
language.

309
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:12,400
I'm just saying.
But I remember I would testify

310
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,720
to people about Joseph Smith in
the Book of Mormon because it's

311
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,760
what I grew up and knew.
It's what I always just

312
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,480
believed.
But then I remember saying, I

313
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,080
know this to people and
internally I was like, do I

314
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:30,600
really know this?
I believe it, but do I really

315
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,680
know it?
And so I was like, you know,

316
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,440
I've never really taken Moroni's
promise to heart in the end of

317
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:45,040
the Book of Mormon that says, if
you, if you, if you read these

318
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,320
things and ask, you will know
that they are true.

319
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,360
And then at the beginning of the
introduction to the Book of

320
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,360
Mormon, it talks about that.
You will also know that Jesus

321
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:55,560
Christ is the Savior.
You will also know that Joseph

322
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,480
Smith was called of God.
And you will also know that the

323
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,960
God's Kingdom is on the earth.
And so I was like, you know, I'm

324
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,920
going to, I'm going to read,
read this all the way through

325
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,680
and ask.
So I think I ended, so I started

326
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:17,640
my mission in February of 2014
and I ended in or I and finished

327
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,600
the Book of Mormon at the end of
the the year.

328
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:24,440
So December of 2014 is when I
finished and I remember I knelt

329
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,760
and prayed and asked.
I was like, OK, I need to know

330
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,600
because I want to tell people I
know this, I believe it, but I

331
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,560
want to know without a doubt.
And I didn't feel anything at

332
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,480
first.
I, I was like, why?

333
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,560
Why am I not?
I, I mean, I'm not upset, but

334
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,080
I'm also not sure.
And I think it was like four

335
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,480
days after I'd finished and
asked that question, I was

336
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,600
reading and preached my gospel
and it was talking, I was

337
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,160
reading the chapter on the Book
of Mormon and it talked about, I

338
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,120
can't even remember what it was
really talking about other than

339
00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,240
the Book of Mormon.
And I had this overcoming

340
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,720
feeling of assurity, just calm,
like I could feel it into my

341
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,200
fingertips, into my feet that
this is the Book of Mormon was

342
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,000
translated by Joseph Smith.
Absolutely he was, he is called

343
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,400
as a prophet and he was able to
translate this book that was

344
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,640
written by ancient, ancient
inhabitants of America that had

345
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,040
these experiences and that
testifies of Jesus Christ.

346
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:32,440
And so because of that
experience, I have never doubted

347
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,840
Mormonism.
And I, I hold that as like my

348
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:44,400
anchor moment in my life where
whatever winds are blowing, I

349
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,560
know that to be be true and I
have it written down and

350
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,560
something else that's positive
from my mission.

351
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,240
Well, actually before, did you
have a question about that

352
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,480
experience before I move on?
So, so real quick, I mean, and,

353
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,920
and I think this is, this is a
story here, this part of your

354
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,720
life I think is fascinating,
right?

355
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:09,800
Because Mormonism's different in
the sense of at some point we

356
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,440
all have to have that
conversion.

357
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,440
Now, I what I found and, and you
can correct me if I'm wrong

358
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,560
here, obviously, but as I've
worked with young men when I was

359
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,960
in the LDS church and then
talked to other people as a

360
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,880
fundamentalist, what I
discovered is, is that people

361
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,840
that are raised in the religion,
there's.

362
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,480
Kind of timed.
In their life, as they're young,

363
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,640
they're borrowing light from
their parents, right?

364
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,040
So their parents say, you know,
this is true, this is correct.

365
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,560
And then you internalize that
and say good enough for the old

366
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,320
folks, it's good enough for me,
sort of a thing.

367
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,560
And you vote with that.
But at some point you have to

368
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,880
have that encounter with the
divine right.

369
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,400
You have to be able to to have
that moment where there's

370
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,240
nothing left but the truth that
you are doing this now because

371
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,320
this is the truth is it.
Would you say that's a good

372
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,320
accurate way of how you?
Came to.

373
00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:02,360
This absolutely, because you
know, my parents had strong

374
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:06,440
testimonies and I you've
honestly, you do borrow their

375
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,200
testimony.
You you say, I know this because

376
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,800
my mom knows this basically, I
mean, you don't say that out

377
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,720
loud, right?
You but you internalize it and

378
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,480
that's that's just like, I don't
know, that's just it's a fact

379
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,280
that you borrow it.
So through through.

380
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,480
All of this.
Time.

381
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,360
You growing up, going to a
little bit of college, going on

382
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:35,720
a mission.
Did you ever have any sort of

383
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,400
doubts or conflicts with like
did did you ever fall into like

384
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,880
the old sources, right?
Did anyone ever try to, you

385
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,720
know, for lack of a better term,
Adam Gadja when you were a kid

386
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,680
or anything like that and kind
of blow your mind or anything

387
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,640
like that that caused you pause?
Well, to this point, no.

388
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,360
OK, but it it did happen before
I left my mission.

389
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,920
OK.
All right, but we haven't gotten

390
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,440
to that yet.
No, no, we'll, we'll get to that

391
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,000
later.
I was just curious if there was

392
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,560
ever a time that you, it doesn't
sound like you really

393
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,240
questioned.
Not that there's anything wrong

394
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,120
with that, right?
So, so you, you never really

395
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:12,400
questioned.
So what?

396
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,000
What else were you going to say
about your mission?

397
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,640
So I was going to say that that
now, now we're getting to the

398
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,560
the the good part at the end of
your mission.

399
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:29,440
So, so I have Spanish family
speaking my whole mission except

400
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,440
for the last three transfers of
my mission.

401
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,120
The last three I got picked out
of Spanish work and had to go to

402
00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:42,240
an English YSA ward and I was
not happy at first.

403
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:47,320
I was like, come on, I have
three more transfers left.

404
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:53,720
I want to speak Spanish.
I I don't want to be in an YSA

405
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:54,960
ward.
I don't want to work with all

406
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,640
these young people.
I know they're my age, but it's

407
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:04,440
not the same.
And four days into being in the

408
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,320
YSA ward, I met this guy.
In San Diego.

409
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,880
In San Diego, it was his YSA
ward.

410
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,200
You know you're not supposed to
do that from what I understand.

411
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,120
I was a good, I was a good
missionary.

412
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,520
I did not have a crush on this
guy at all.

413
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,280
Oh, come on, you know you did.
You looked at him and went, Oh

414
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,560
yeah.
Well, you can even ask him.

415
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,680
I I didn't.
No one Felipe, he tried to make

416
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,120
the move on a missionary.
That's that's what I I figured

417
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,800
so.
I did.

418
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:42,360
Yeah, you did?
Yeah.

419
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:48,560
So, so so we would just he would
feed us sisters and we would

420
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,280
meet with him every week or
every couple weeks or something

421
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:57,560
just having lessons and stuff
and and he would he actually is

422
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,360
the one that brought up like
Adam God, when I was.

423
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,880
Wished Oh, we're going to get to
you in a second, big guy.

424
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,520
And I would just, you know,
shove it off and I'm like,

425
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,880
whatever, it's, it's that's
nothing that I want to really

426
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,320
talk about.
I don't know.

427
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:20,640
I just, you know, you're a
missionary.

428
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,320
You have a mindset of Joseph
Smith and the restoration plan

429
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,680
of Salvation Gospel.
Like you have the lesson, preach

430
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,640
my gospel lessons just ingrained
in you.

431
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:37,200
And so, yeah.
And he would bring, he'd just

432
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,320
bring up random stuff and be
like, let's go back to the

433
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,080
topic.
Let's stop talking about this

434
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:46,720
other stuff.
Oh, that's hilarious.

435
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,880
Oh, that's good stuff.
So, OK, so you finish up your

436
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,960
mission and then you go home and
then what do you do?

437
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,640
I go back to the BYU Idaho
'cause I did a year, a year and

438
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,720
a half before I left.
I did 3 semesters, right?

439
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,760
Is that 3 or 4?
Did I hold on?

440
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,200
Now I'm getting the 10 and 12.
Yeah, yeah, I did.

441
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,840
No, I did 55 semesters, sorry,
not 35 semesters.

442
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,640
And then I came home and did
three more and, you know, I was

443
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,400
at school and I would, we became
really good friends, Felipe and

444
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,480
I, and we've been chatting back
and forth.

445
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,000
OK.
Was he in Utah this time, or

446
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,280
were you?
No, he was still in California.

447
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,760
So I was in Idaho, he was in
California and we would chat

448
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,000
back and forth about our boy
problem, my boy problems, his

449
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,560
girl problems and other stuff.
We were friends and I had

450
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,760
roommates at school to be like,
oh, who's this Felipe guy?

451
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,280
And I'd be like, oh, he's just
my friend.

452
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,720
There's never going to be
anything between us.

453
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:50,680
Don't worry about it.
So and so then I graduate from

454
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:57,960
school in December of 2016.
Yeah.

455
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:05,920
And then he tells me that he's
liked me for a long time, in the

456
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,440
spring of 2017.
Wow.

457
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,400
OK, we'll, we'll, we'll stop
right there with your story

458
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:12,200
'cause now.
We're going to.

459
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,000
Felipe's and then, and then I'll
ask an important question that

460
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,960
the two of you can decide who's
going to answer.

461
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,800
So, Felipe, for you, you weren't
born a Mormon, right?

462
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,720
No, just like typical Mexicans.
I was a baptized Catholic.

463
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,520
I have fond memories of the
Catholic Church.

464
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,320
I'm actually, I'm really proud
of my Catholic heritage.

465
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:39,120
But no, I joined the church when
I was 15, and what led to it was

466
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:42,560
really strange.
My mom actually joined the LDS

467
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,280
Church back in 1981 in Mexico,
but she was never confirmed a

468
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,040
member.
And my first exposure to

469
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,160
Mormonism was when the San Diego
Temple was open.

470
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,760
It was.
It had been open for two or

471
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,760
three years already.
And I thought it was a very

472
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,760
beautiful building.
Like at the time.

473
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,480
And as I got older, my mom, my
dad stayed Catholic.

474
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,080
But my mom, she would go to
other churches and these

475
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,200
churches would always bash on
the Mormons.

476
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,600
Not always, but sometimes they
would just say, don't be like

477
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,280
the Mormons.
And I'm like this little kid, so

478
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,160
don't like, I don't understand
why they're bashing them, nor do

479
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,400
I care.
But I'm like, why are they keep

480
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,160
talking about Mormons?
And even as a young child, I was

481
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,920
always curious about religion.
I always had a fascination with

482
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,760
religion, like with Buddhism,
Hinduism, It was something I've

483
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,640
always enjoyed.
Don't know why.

484
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,520
Like I love history.
And around the time when I

485
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:45,120
turned to 15, freshman year of
high school, the, for some

486
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,040
reason, fundamentalism kept
being brought up in the news

487
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,480
because this was during the time
when the whole FLDS thing was

488
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,800
going on with the Lost Boys,
these controversies.

489
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,680
And it was really strange.
And you know, which is odd

490
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,880
because, you know, back then I
had a real negative view on

491
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:07,440
fundamentalism, ironically.
But what happened was it was

492
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,080
spring of 20 of 2004, San Diego
had a snowstorm.

493
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,680
It wasn't a big snowstorm, but
we got unusual, like, amount of

494
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,600
snow in the mountains.
And I was reading the newspaper

495
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,040
at school.
I cut the photo off, and I

496
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,520
showed it to my teacher's
assistant.

497
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,160
And she said it looked like Salt
Lake City.

498
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,000
And I'm like, and I'm like,
isn't that the Mormon capital?

499
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,920
She said, yeah.
And me and my big mouth, I was

500
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,560
like, yeah, those Mormons are
freaks.

501
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,240
And she says, did you just call
me a freak?

502
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,520
And I'm like frozen like.
Oh.

503
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,600
She didn't yell at me.
She gave me this really kind

504
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,600
look, which I'm grateful that I
didn't get in trouble.

505
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,760
And she tells me she's Mormon.
And I'm like, oh, crap, I'm

506
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,120
dead.
But you know, I was like, OK,

507
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,280
might as well ask her questions
about her religion.

508
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,720
So I start asking her about it,
you know, about polygamy, Like,

509
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,880
why do you guys do in the
temple, all that stuff?

510
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,080
And she answered him.
She, one of the things that

511
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,280
impressed me was eternal
marriages that a family could

512
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,160
be, families can be together.
And that was like my main thing

513
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,840
that really sold me to
Mormonism.

514
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,800
And then I and I had actually a
Book of Mormon that my sister

515
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,160
found in the, in the laundry in
these apartments we used to live

516
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,320
in.
And I read like a like one or

517
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:28,960
two chapters.
I didn't really get it because

518
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,800
it was written in old English,
like English words we don't use

519
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,840
today.
And so I brought the Book of

520
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,720
Mormon and I asked, and I asked
her like, OK, So what is this,

521
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,200
you know, and she's this is
Nephi finding the Leohona.

522
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,360
And then I asked her, what is
this?

523
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,960
Like, why is Jesus standing
among the Mesoamerican people?

524
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,640
And she said, those are the
Lemonites.

525
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,680
And you know, ironically, I
used, I'm now a Heartlander, but

526
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,360
it was the Mesoamerican part
that I really enjoyed because my

527
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,400
dad would always mention that
the natives in Mexico had

528
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,080
legends about this white God who
came and saved them.

529
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,080
And so I was getting really
fascinated with Mormonism.

530
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,240
And then for spring, I went to
go visit my sister up in

531
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,040
Northern California.
She lived in the Travis County.

532
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,560
Her husband was in the Air
Force.

533
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,480
She had a computer.
I didn't have Internet at the

534
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,160
time.
So when I went to go visit her,

535
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,480
I used the whole, that whole
opportunity to read on

536
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,760
Mormonism, anything I could
find.

537
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,280
I went from anti Mormon websites
to, you know, apologetic

538
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,320
websites.
And I run my last week while I

539
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,160
was researching, doing like more
research on Joseph Smith, we had

540
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:43,040
two Mormon missionaries stop by.
And so I was going to like take

541
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,960
advantage of this opportunity,
ask more questions.

542
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,480
And so they asked me, So what do
you know about Mormonism?

543
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,080
I told them my teacher's
assistant is Mormon.

544
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,040
My mom was baptized, but she she
wasn't really active.

545
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,560
And then they asked my sister
like what she knew about

546
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,720
Mormonism.
And my sister remembers Primary,

547
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,400
which I didn't know she was in.
She was in Primary.

548
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,840
And then she said that my dad
was also baptized, which I

549
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,920
didn't know that either.
I was surprised to find that

550
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,640
out.
And so they asked me, like, if I

551
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,200
was interested in joining the
church or investigating, like if

552
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,160
I was really if I was interested
in the church.

553
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,160
And I was like, yeah, it was.
So they showed me the Joseph

554
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,520
Smith's First Vision film, and
it really cut me deep.

555
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,440
Like it was really deep because
it was, you know, he was asking

556
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,280
questions with church is true.
And these were questions that my

557
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,400
mom was telling me that you
should find the true church

558
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,960
because you're gonna if you
don't, you go to hell, just to

559
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:48,960
paraphrase it.
And like I go back to San Diego

560
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,480
and I told my teacher's
assistant if she can send

561
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,360
missionaries over to my house
and she was very thrilled.

562
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,600
And so the two we have two
missionaries that come over to

563
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,960
my house and they start teaching
me and I was already pumped to

564
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,640
getting baptized and my little
sister also got baptized with

565
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:09,760
me.
And then my mom surprisingly

566
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,280
also wanted to get baptized.
She asked if she could get re

567
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,320
baptized.
And so they checked her record

568
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,320
and it turns out since they lost
her, they lost her records

569
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,200
because they didn't confirm her.
So they gave her, I think they

570
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,840
have, they had records that she
got baptized, but something

571
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,600
happened where they said, yeah,
you can get baptized again.

572
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,200
So she got excited.
We didn't get baptized around

573
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,640
the same day.
My little sister and I got

574
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,560
baptized first, and then my mom
got baptized a month after we

575
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,320
did.
And for a while, we were all

576
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,800
active in the LDS church.
My dad started coming to church

577
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,200
with us.
He was actually really fond of

578
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,320
Mormonism.
He really liked the family

579
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,920
structure, how people were, how
the community, community.

580
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,920
But you know, we started having
conflicts in our family.

581
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,400
My mom, she started getting
more.

582
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,800
I think it's when we moved for
the Spanish wards, she just

583
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,640
stopped.
She was starting to have more

584
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,040
conflicts with the church.
My dad, he really enjoyed it.

585
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,040
But I guess the way my mom was,
he just stopped going to church

586
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,280
because she was being very
fanatical.

587
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,400
And you know, my family, I
didn't come from a great family

588
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,080
background, but you know, a few
years later, my older sister,

589
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,120
she never got baptized, she
never joined the church.

590
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,080
She actually was a critical of
Mormonism.

591
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,920
And she started sending me these
anti Mormon quotes, these like

592
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,920
the Adam God doctrine, things
that fundamentalist believe in.

593
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,040
And I asked people my wards, So
what is this?

594
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,480
And they gave me the strangest
response.

595
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,719
They said if a member hasn't
heard about this, it's not

596
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:47,960
history.
It didn't happen.

597
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,360
No, say that again if a member
hasn't what?

598
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:55,199
If a member hasn't heard about
it, it's not history.

599
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,080
So it didn't happen.
And I remember that.

600
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,360
So OK, so like if.
Yeah, I.

601
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,040
Know I get what you're saying.
It's kind of what my my first

602
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,400
thought in right.
It's kind of 90 Orwellian 1984

603
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,680
kind of stuff, right.
I mean, that's that's a.

604
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,800
Little, yeah, but you know, I
was the one who stayed active in

605
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,280
the church.
I tried my best.

606
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,480
I did want to go on a mission,
but I never did.

607
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,600
I think when I was 25, that's
when I was given a more serious

608
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,280
thought, but I was engaged to
another girl at the time.

609
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,400
Not me.
Yeah, not her and.

610
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,120
Subject we were, yeah.
But I didn't go.

611
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,600
And that's my biggest regret.
But I never stopped going to

612
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,240
church.
My mom left the church around

613
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,240
2014.
And you know, I was OK with

614
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:43,520
that.
Like, you know, I was still

615
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,320
gonna love her.
And my little sister stopped

616
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,040
going to church.
My dad stopped going to church.

617
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,160
So I was the only one who still
went to church like here.

618
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,080
And then once in a while I was
struggling.

619
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,800
Then around 2014, after my mom
left the church, I decided to

620
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,720
leave the Spanish ward and I
wanted to go to the YSA 'cause I

621
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:08,760
wanted to find somebody.
And I'm, you know, I'm having

622
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,720
these conflicts because I'm
reading these other things about

623
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,800
Adam God.
Like this is when Kevin Kratt

624
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,040
was releasing videos on Adam
God, like these principles of

625
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,680
fundamentalism.
And I was struggling because the

626
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,720
church was also going through
some changes around that time

627
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:24,720
too.
And, you know, we're taught that

628
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:27,440
the church never changes where
the rest, it's the restoration

629
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,600
of the original church.
And that was really hitting me

630
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,040
because I can't be honest.
And my older sister, she's a

631
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,960
she's a reformed Protestant.
She kept bringing up good points

632
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,880
and I didn't know how to answer
that.

633
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,000
I feel like I was being
dishonest to myself.

634
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,600
But you know, 2014 comes, I go
to the I switch over to the YSA.

635
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,040
I'm happy that I don't have to
speak Spanish anymore.

636
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,120
You know, Spanish was my first
language, but I adopted English

637
00:36:53,400 --> 00:37:01,600
as my main language.
And I need Marilyn and I already

638
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,920
knew her companion.
And so she says to me that her

639
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,400
first words to me were.
Oh, you mean your your future

640
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,560
wife, the one that you went
ahead and put the moves on a

641
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,120
missionary for?
Oh, yeah.

642
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,160
OK, I just want to get that.
I'll tell you.

643
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,280
What happened?
Get that on the record.

644
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:20,520
She was so looking forward to
talking to me, she said in

645
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:21,720
Spanish.
Oh, go ahead, I had just.

646
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:23,880
Moved from Spanish to English
work.

647
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,720
He was so looking forward to
speaking to him because my

648
00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:29,960
companion had told me you can
talk to Felipe in Spanish.

649
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,400
She speaks Spanish, so I was
like.

650
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,600
So my first word, she said to
me.

651
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,440
Ola So Hermana, Maryland estoy.
Estoy muyeni Mara para bla

652
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,760
contigo en espanol, which means.
Hi, I'm sister wild.

653
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,200
I'm so excited I can speak with
you in Spanish.

654
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:53,560
And my response to her was I
gave her like this look like I

655
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,600
only speak Spanish at home.
In.

656
00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:59,040
English.
He says it in English.

657
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,160
So wait, wait, wait.
I I just say and again, because

658
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,320
I know you guys a little bit, is
this like Felipe playing hard to

659
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:10,120
get?
Is that?

660
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,280
Is that what this is?
No, this is me telling her don't

661
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,440
talk to me in Spanish.
I left the Spanish ward.

662
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,880
I'm, I don't want anything to do
with it, you know?

663
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:25,360
OK, that was so, so heartbroken.
But you know, when I saw her, I

664
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,200
was like, my heart was kind of
frozen because she has beautiful

665
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,200
eyes.
And then I give her that snarky

666
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:31,320
response.
So.

667
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,160
'Cause he, yeah, he, he noticed
my eyes before I said anything

668
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,200
to him.
And then, and then, and then he

669
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,760
said something that hurt my
heart.

670
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,400
And he's like, oh, that girl
with the pretty eyes.

671
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,800
I just very first thing I said
to her and she hates me.

672
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,840
Oh.
But you know who was semi active

673
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,360
at church?
But I started talking to them.

674
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,320
Just build friendships.
Just talk to people 'cause I

675
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,600
enjoy talking to the
missionaries.

676
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,400
We didn't have elders, we had
sister missionaries.

677
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,480
So, you know, I would talk to
them.

678
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,440
I had two jobs, so I was able to
afford them to buy them dinner

679
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,320
like once a week because I had
nobody else to talk to.

680
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,440
I didn't have a lot of friends.
And I'm still reading some of

681
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,200
these stuff like Adam God read
baptisms.

682
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:15,440
And when they would talk to me,
I would randomly bring up these

683
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:20,600
topics because I was hoping they
would know and they would just

684
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,640
not not get out.
Like just kind of ignore it.

685
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,160
And I'm like, huh, maybe I'm not
approaching this the right way.

686
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,920
And so August comes, this is
2015.

687
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,720
Marilyn's going to leave.
And I'm thinking she's probably

688
00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:39,520
going to be one of those sister
missionaries who gives me her

689
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,400
number and says, oh, I should
come to Utah.

690
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,680
And then three months later,
ignores, ignores me because I've

691
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,920
had sister missionaries in the
past that would give me their

692
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,800
numbers when they would leave.
And they would, you know, we

693
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,400
would chat for three months and
then they would find a boyfriend

694
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,120
at BYU or UVU.
So I was thinking she was going

695
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,920
to be one of them.
She wasn't.

696
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:02,560
We stayed in touch for like a
year and a half.

697
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,560
I was still in a relationship
with another girl that, that

698
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,880
engagement was broken off
because it just, we, it wasn't

699
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,080
going to work out between her
and I.

700
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,080
It was a long, it was going to
be a long distance relationship

701
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,160
and both of us had trust issues.
Ironically, my ex fiance, she

702
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:18,680
moved to Utah.
So that was one of the reasons,

703
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,720
one of the reasons why we broke
up the engagement.

704
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,520
Oh wow.
And I did flirt with Sister Wild

705
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,600
while she was on her mission.
She was Sister Wild.

706
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,520
And I, yeah, they said don't do
that.

707
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:33,640
But I didn't really care for the
rules.

708
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,840
I was already getting irritated
with the changes.

709
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,440
So I was kind of going picking
the path of nihilism because

710
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,200
these changes were really
bugging me.

711
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,840
I didn't know he was flirting
with me, I just thought he was

712
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,600
being friendly.
There, There you go.

713
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:46,520
There you go.
I.

714
00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:49,040
I had a missionary mind.
Yeah, you did.

715
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,000
You were focused and it was all
about speaking Spanish, talking

716
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,800
the Gospel in Spanish.
That's that's what it was.

717
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,800
So Felipe, for you real quick,
though, I, I'm, I'm curious as,

718
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,200
as you're reading, as your
sister's sending you these,

719
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:06,080
these anti, I'm going to use the
term here anti Mormon quotes,

720
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,600
right, which is really most of
the time just old stuff taking

721
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,720
out of taken out of context,
right.

722
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,160
As as this is happening, do you
find yourself getting drawn into

723
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,880
this right.
And then at what point, at what

724
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,720
point are you reading all this?
And then you're like, oh, crap,

725
00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:25,880
they did change some stuff,
right?

726
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,960
At what point does it go from,
you know what it was?

727
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,680
Because we all kind of do it
right when, when we're, we're

728
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,800
first coming, coming out of the
LDS church, we, we all kind of

729
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,880
do this a little bit like, oh,
that was taken out of context or

730
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,240
we need more history on it.
And then all of a sudden you go

731
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:45,920
back to the source and you're
like, oh, there's a lot of

732
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,640
context here.
At what point do you realize,

733
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,000
yeah, there's some serious
changes here?

734
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,080
Are you struggling with this the
same time you're talking to to

735
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,960
Mary Lynn here or or what's
going on?

736
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,280
It was I was struggling because
I was trying to accept that

737
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,240
these were things that were
taught Adam God.

738
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,720
That was, that was my biggest
thing, Adam God, because in the

739
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:09,760
LDS church we're, we're taught
that Adam's just Michael, Jesus

740
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,320
is Jehovah and our heavenly
Father is Elohim.

741
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,040
And around the time when I was
26, I'm, I'm reading some of

742
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,040
this stuff, but I'm then I'm
putting it away because I'm

743
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,040
trying to, you know, they say in
the church that if you go back

744
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,440
into history, you're going to
like leave the church.

745
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,760
So I'm like staying away from it
for a while.

746
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:34,680
And then around, around the time
when her and I started dating, I

747
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,120
made plans already to move to
Utah.

748
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,560
I was going to go to Japan, but
I had all that money I used.

749
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,600
I just used it to move to Utah
so I can spend time, so I can

750
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,360
date her more.
I start reading more into this

751
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,280
stuff.
And then I stopped because I

752
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:51,960
feel like it was damaging my
faith.

753
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,520
It was it was I was keeping this
to myself because she was only

754
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,800
going to marry me in the temple.
And so I'm like, OK, I should

755
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,600
just stop reading this stuff.
I should just focus on what the

756
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,320
church leaders are saying.
I should be a good Mormon boy.

757
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,800
And then around the time this
was around, I joined the Army.

758
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,440
I leave for the army, I start
rebuilding my faith because I

759
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,240
was struggling.
And I think it was around my,

760
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,600
my, my time in Fort Jackson
during basic training that I, my

761
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:28,440
faith was regrowing.
I was regrowing my faith and I

762
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,360
felt like something was missing
because they kept talking about

763
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:35,800
Heavenly Father.
But the image of Michael kept

764
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,080
coming up, like Michael the
Archangel, like being Catholic.

765
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:41,600
That was one of the biggest.
That was one of the common

766
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:48,000
statues we had in our churches.
And I go to airborne school at

767
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,800
Fort Benning around September.
Of 2018. 2018, I was still, I

768
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,680
was like already three months
away.

769
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,880
I was three months away.
Sorry.

770
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,680
I was already three months into
my training.

771
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,440
I only had three more weeks
until I was going to sit back,

772
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,560
be sent back home.
I was excited like I'm at

773
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,800
Airborne school.
You know, something I've always

774
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,960
dreamed as a kid because I've
always loved reading about

775
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,800
paratroopers during World War 2.
Something was telling me I

776
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,680
should go to the park nearby.
And so I told one of my battle

777
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,720
buddies.
That's a friend you're assigned

778
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:23,880
to make sure you guys are stay
out of trouble and I'm walking

779
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:29,040
around I'm walking around the
Ranger monument and then I see

780
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,160
this monument dedicated to Saint
Michael the Archangel Saint

781
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,520
Michael in the airborne culture.
He's our patron St. and I'm

782
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:41,000
looking at it and something was
telling me that you should

783
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,000
really give a deep I should
really consider studying Adam

784
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,040
God.
So when I saw that I was like,

785
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,880
OK, as soon as I get home, I'm
going to actually just go read.

786
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,160
I'm going to read all this stuff
unfilter.

787
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,640
So when I get home, we're
getting ready to get we're

788
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:06,840
getting ready to get married.
I start read, I start going to

789
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,440
the Ogden Crowd website and I
start reading about Adam God.

790
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,440
And it's still not making any
sense.

791
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:14,640
I'm like wondering what's going
on?

792
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:22,960
Like what, what's what's going
on, you know, and so her and I,

793
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:27,320
we get married around it was
November 28th of 2000 and 29th

794
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:28,440
of 2018.
I'm.

795
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,080
I'm going to pause the story
right here real quick.

796
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,760
Mary Lynn, are are you seeing
any of this?

797
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,920
Do you understand any of this is
going on?

798
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,200
Nope.
So so you 2.

799
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,600
So so you got Felipe, who's like
diving into the mysteries and

800
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,000
then at the same time he's just
like, OK, I'm going to play this

801
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:50,440
cool.
I'm going to play this close to

802
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,120
the vest because this all has to
work somehow, right?

803
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,640
And so you have no idea this is
going on.

804
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:03,440
I have no idea what's going on.
Yeah, we he didn't tell me any

805
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,760
of this until after the fact,
but because we're getting ready

806
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,160
to go get married in the Salt
Lake Temple.

807
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,600
OK.
So OK, All right.

808
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:17,280
Wow, go ahead and.
Continue on going back a little

809
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:22,200
bit first though.
So in April of 2017, he tells me

810
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,200
that he's liked me for a long
time.

811
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,960
We start long distance dating,
we go to Disneyland on our first

812
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:35,120
date together in person, and
then he moves to Utah in August

813
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,800
of 2017.
And then we start dating and we

814
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:45,200
get engaged in April of 2018.
He leaves for basic training for

815
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,960
the army, gets back in September
of 2018.

816
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,240
We get married in November of
2018.

817
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,480
So.
That's pretty typical.

818
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,920
I mean that's it's fast, but not
really for Mormons, right?

819
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,200
No, like Mormons can be like 3
months.

820
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:01,320
Oh yeah.
Oh, yeah.

821
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,760
No, we, we can flat get that
stuff done.

822
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,800
I mean, there, there.
There's no doubt that OK, that

823
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,080
kind of fills in that gap.
OK, so go ahead and continue on.

824
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,880
So so you're you're like
secretly diving into the OG

825
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,960
stuff, right?
You're, you're going through,

826
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,160
I'm guessing, Journal of
Discourses, you're going through

827
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,800
the words of Joseph Smith, that
sort of stuff.

828
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,760
You're you're really diving deep
at the same time you're

829
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,040
preparing to go get sealed in
the Salt Lake Temple.

830
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,080
Well, if preparing to get my
endowments, I want to go to the

831
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,400
Salt Lake Temple because I'm an
old school guy.

832
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,520
I love old school rituals.
I don't.

833
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,240
I didn't like the idea of
watching an endowment on

834
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:41,640
television on on screen.
So I told my wife that I want to

835
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,240
do in the Salt Lake Temple and I
was already aware of some of the

836
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:47,400
changes that the temples have
gone through because I read

837
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:53,680
through some of the temple
ceremonies as a young guy and,

838
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,800
you know, I was really excited.
I like always dream of going

839
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,480
inside those Salt Lake Temple.
It was always like a Mr. to me,

840
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:04,480
something mystical, you know,
and we go through the endowments

841
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:11,040
and it was, I really enjoyed it.
But since I knew what was

842
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:15,400
removed, something felt that was
something felt.

843
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,200
I felt something was missing.
And my wife, she was my fiance

844
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,200
at the time, asked me didn't I
think it was great.

845
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:24,480
She asked me if I thought it was
great.

846
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,800
I was like, yeah, it was all
right.

847
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,920
Did that throw up a red flag to
you, Mary Lynn?

848
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,160
I wouldn't say a red flag.
It was more of a disappointment,

849
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,360
kind of the same heart sinking
feeling I had when I told him I

850
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,680
wanted to speak Spanish with him
and he shut me down.

851
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,880
It was kind of the same heart
sinking feeling.

852
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,760
I mean, it's a much bigger
thing, but it was, it wasn't

853
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,600
more, it wasn't a red flag.
It was more of a, oh, I'm sad

854
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:51,560
you didn't enjoy it.
OK.

855
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,320
All right.
Fair enough.

856
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:59,040
Yeah.
So then the big day comes, we're

857
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:03,520
going to get sealed.
And I'm excited.

858
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,360
I'm like, OK, I'm going to be
sealed to this woman, this girl

859
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,440
I've had a crush for a while,
the sister missionary, because

860
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,280
I've always wanted to date a
sister missionary.

861
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:14,560
And as we're getting as the,
what do you call a guy who

862
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,200
performs this feeling?
Is it the Steeler?

863
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,360
He's making us repeat certain
phrases from the ceremonies.

864
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:28,280
And which part was it?
How can I put it without

865
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,480
revealing too much?
The part where a woman should

866
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,640
plan is to be on her husband.
Yep.

867
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,960
If that's appropriate to say if
body can remove that.

868
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:45,160
As he's reading this, I have a
most honest moment, like in a

869
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,360
voice.
Like I have like a voice come

870
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,640
into my ear telling me they're
gonna remove this.

871
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,600
And I'm like thinking, what the
heck, Like I'm looking.

872
00:49:53,720 --> 00:49:56,040
I look back real quick and I'm
like, did somebody say

873
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,320
something?
Then I hear that voice two more

874
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,760
times.
Then I'm like, OK, that was odd.

875
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,880
Am I?
Am I becoming a schizo?

876
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,680
And then we get sealed.
I'm excited, I'm happy.

877
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,440
And then January comes
20/19/2019.

878
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:20,240
They changed that portion.
And a lot more.

879
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,600
A lot more.
And that was like, I'm

880
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,800
listening, I'm hearing this in
the car, in the radio.

881
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,840
And that was like, what the heck
just happened?

882
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,120
Like I stopped, I parked
somewhere and I'm looking and

883
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:35,480
I'm like, what the heck
happened?

884
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:37,920
You know, why did they change
this?

885
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:40,680
And to me, that was the final
straw.

886
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,160
So I stopped going to church.
OK, hold, hold.

887
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,520
I'm going to stop you right
there because I was to Mary Lynn

888
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,640
real quick.
OK, so what'd you think?

889
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,720
When when when those ordinances
were changed at that .0 my.

890
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:59,880
God miss feelings.
I was, I think that the the

891
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:02,200
promises being made to the
husband is something that's such

892
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:07,520
a beautiful doctrine.
And I always had mixed feelings

893
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:12,600
because, you know, I was like,
wow, This is why are they taking

894
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,800
this out?
It's like a full feminist

895
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:19,400
movement crap.
And why are they?

896
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:21,720
I mean, come to find out, I know
I've listened to you on the

897
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:24,360
podcast before say that one of
your stake presidents said, Oh,

898
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:25,800
it's because there's more single
members.

899
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:33,320
And so I, I, I had the feeling
of I don't know if I necessarily

900
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,640
like this, but it's coming from
a prophet.

901
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,200
And so maybe I should just
accept it?

902
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,120
Got you got.
You, even though I may not like

903
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,320
it, that's kind of where my
brain was at the time.

904
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,520
Well, and to be fair, that's,
that's where we're, we all go,

905
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,240
right?
That's where we're taught to go,

906
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,320
right?
Is that the one man can't screw

907
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,720
anything up right?
And, and, and so when when you

908
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:03,760
get there and as long as nobody
else kind of goes, hey, is this

909
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,520
CMOD to anybody else, nobody
dares say anything because you

910
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,840
don't want to be the first
person to say it, right?

911
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,200
Oh, and and even then they all
say, oh, it's just, it's

912
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,840
policies that are changing.
It's not doctrine.

913
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:18,960
Yeah, and.
That's not true, but.

914
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,760
Yeah, exactly.
I remember those those days.

915
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:27,400
And I'm like, anytime they would
say that phrase, you know, the

916
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,960
doctrine's not changing.
I I always felt like I was in

917
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,400
The Princess Bride because I was
always like, I don't think

918
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,320
doctrine means the same thing to
you as what you or I don't think

919
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,280
doctrine is what you think it
means.

920
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,400
Right?
Like it was, it was one of those

921
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,560
things that was very.
Yeah, it.

922
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:44,520
OK.
So I can sympathize with you

923
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:45,440
then.
OK.

924
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,440
So January rolls around, that
change is made, and you're done,

925
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,600
Felipe.
Yeah, I was done.

926
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,400
I was like, OK, I already
started having issues with

927
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,800
certain members of certain
members of the Quorum of the 12

928
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,440
too, but I was trying to make
make a big deal out of it.

929
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:02,480
I was trying to be humble
because it was like, OK, there's

930
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:03,560
nothing wrong with them, it's
me.

931
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,160
But that was the final straw.
That was like, OK, and that's

932
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,480
been condescending, but I felt
like we were being cheated out

933
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,320
because I'm like, I, I'm reading
these stories from The Pioneers

934
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:19,000
about their experience in
getting their endowments, and I

935
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,600
want that for myself.
Why is that being denied to me?

936
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,880
And so then I stopped going to
church for a while.

937
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:29,480
And my Marilyn, she's crushed
about it.

938
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,200
You know, it's like we just got
married.

939
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,880
You know, I'm not being the guy
she wanted, like a faithful

940
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,560
priesthood holder.
And then around April, I get my

941
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:45,560
bonus from the Army, and I start
using that bonus for something

942
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,760
interesting.
I start buying books on

943
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,360
fundamentalist literature.
I go to Benchmark Books I buy.

944
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:55,520
I start buying all my all the
Ogden Crowd books, The Enzyme to

945
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,320
the Nation.
But before that I bought 2

946
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:03,640
books, A Puzzle on Trial and the
Drew and the Adam God book.

947
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:05,600
Those were the first two books
actually that I bought.

948
00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:07,720
Both by Drew Briny, right?
Yes.

949
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,360
Shout out to Drew.
Shout out to Drew.

950
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,760
All right.
And so when he's buying these

951
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,800
books, I'm like, are we going to
be excommunicated for the?

952
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,320
Yeah, yeah.
So, OK, so I want to stop here

953
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,120
'cause this is, this is the part
I'm always interested in right

954
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,880
now.
Fortunately for me, like I

955
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,320
always tell Amber, it's kind of
your fault I'm doing what I'm

956
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,640
doing now, right, 'cause it, you
know, it was your idea that we

957
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,760
could we go this way.
But it's it's always interesting

958
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,120
to me to hear what Felipe,
you're blessed.

959
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,880
Most guys lose their wives
through this process.

960
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,680
A lot of, I shouldn't say most,
but there's a lot of men who who

961
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:50,480
this, this breaks families,
right?

962
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,160
Mary Lynn, What, what are you
thinking this whole time other

963
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,840
than, you know, before he's
before he's buying the books,

964
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:03,120
which by the way, I do think is
an actual step in the process to

965
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,600
becoming a fundamentalism.
It's one of the many steps. 1 is

966
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,680
a white hot seething hatred of
Wilfred Woodruff that slowly

967
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,480
dissipates, and then the other
is buying really old and obscure

968
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,800
books.
But what, Mary Lynn?

969
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:16,960
What?
What are you thinking in this

970
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:17,520
time?
Right.

971
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,120
Because you just married the
dude and now the dude's like,

972
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:26,920
I'm done.
I'm just, I'm, I don't I, I'm

973
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:28,720
trying to figure out what's
going on.

974
00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:33,320
Like we just got married.
We just got colleagues as ward

975
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:38,720
missionaries like, and he's not
coming to church with me.

976
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,120
I still go to church and I'm
like by myself.

977
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,280
And it's just, it's
heartbreaking to me because I'm

978
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:48,640
like, I've always wanted to just
have a family to go to church.

979
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,520
That's what I had growing up.
And so that's what I wanted for

980
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:58,240
me, for my, my future family.
And and so it was, it was I, I

981
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:00,560
was crushed.
And so I remember we'd start

982
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:02,800
talking and I'm like, why aren't
you coming to church?

983
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,520
And then he just kind of answer
just like, you know, I'm upset

984
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,400
with the church because of this
and that and like, and, and all

985
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,440
these changes and, and I'd be
like, well, we should still go

986
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,760
to church.
Like, please come to church.

987
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:21,280
I need to go to church with me.
And then I think it was the

988
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,560
spring in the spring of 2019
where he's like, OK, I need you

989
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:26,880
to start reading these books
with me.

990
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:29,800
And then I'm like, well, these
books that you're buying, you're

991
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,400
going to get us excommunicated.
OK, hold on, Felipe.

992
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:37,640
What was the point like, 'cause
it's one thing to like read

993
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,200
these yourself and then it's
another thing to like drop them

994
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,280
on your dear sweet wife and go,
hey, you want to hear about some

995
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:47,520
Adam God and then just kind of
put the book in front of her,

996
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:48,440
right?
What?

997
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,480
What was at what point were you
like?

998
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:52,560
This seems like a good idea.
Right.

999
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,280
And then just give her the book.
So it was kind of like that,

1000
00:56:56,280 --> 00:57:01,560
like being said, so we were, we,
we were in Ogden because we

1001
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,320
stayed out of her till during
4th of July.

1002
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:08,040
And I brought, I bought, I
brought my Adam God book from

1003
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:09,840
Drew Briny and the apostles on
trial.

1004
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,160
And I'm, you know, I want to
read, I want to read this with

1005
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,520
her.
And I'm debating, OK, should we

1006
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:17,240
talk about plural marriage or
Adam God?

1007
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,800
What is going to prevent her
from having a nervous break with

1008
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:20,960
Adam God?
1st.

1009
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:23,520
That's not what happened.
That's not what happened.

1010
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:30,400
So we're reading apostles on
trials about what what those two

1011
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,840
pulses went through.
And I was surprised with her

1012
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,440
reaction.
She wasn't hurt by it, that.

1013
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:44,840
Was more, I'm more as I remember
feeling more sad for these men

1014
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:49,920
and what they went through and
that it just, it was just

1015
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,440
surprising doctrine cause 'cause
you know, I know in different

1016
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,760
areas they talk when plural
marriage is brought up and

1017
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:00,280
celestial plural marriage when
it's brought up, it's some, some

1018
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,840
people say, oh, we're not going
to live it in this life, We'll

1019
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,280
live it in the next.
Other people say, oh, it was

1020
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,720
just for time or whatever what I
was taught in seminary and all

1021
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:15,320
that was it needed to be lived
so that the church wouldn't die

1022
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,520
because there weren't enough men
for the women.

1023
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,480
And so but then it got to a
point where there was enough men

1024
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,760
for the women and so we stopped.
That's what I was told.

1025
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:30,240
So learning all this doctrine in
the apostles on trial of this is

1026
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,160
something from God.
It wasn't just from Brigham

1027
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:34,680
Young.
It was from Joseph Smith also,

1028
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:37,640
they talk about it in Saints and
that had that those books came

1029
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:43,080
out around that time.
It just, it just was like, is

1030
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:47,120
plural marriage actually a thing
of God, not just a temporary?

1031
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,280
Yeah.
So, so that, that that brings me

1032
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,880
to, to something I want to ask
you here about this, right?

1033
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:57,040
Because I'm always fascinated.
Like, look, I'll be honest,

1034
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:59,360
right?
If a dude ever says, yeah, I'm

1035
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,480
OK with plural marriage, the
answer is typically, well, yeah,

1036
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:03,920
you are.
You're a dude, right.

1037
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:09,680
So, so from a female, from from
a woman's perspective here, what

1038
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:14,600
was always kind of a your take
on growing up on, on celestial

1039
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,160
plural marriage?
And then during this time of

1040
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,560
research, does that change,
right?

1041
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:24,720
And then how do you wrestle with
that as a woman to get to be at

1042
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,360
least OK with it, right?
What's what's that like?

1043
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,360
So, so growing up, it was more
of just kind of just thrown

1044
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:34,320
under the rug.
I guess.

1045
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,680
It wasn't more, it was more of
like a we did it, but it's we

1046
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:40,240
don't do it anymore kind of a
thing.

1047
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:41,960
There wasn't any doctrine behind
it.

1048
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:46,880
It was just more of like a like
I said that it was something the

1049
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,400
church lived for a time so that
the people so that it wouldn't

1050
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:54,000
die because there wasn't enough
men for the women, because they

1051
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,240
all died on the plates, because
I didn't.

1052
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,440
All of them.
Because I didn't realize until

1053
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,240
later on that it was practiced
in Nauvoo as well.

1054
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,120
I, I just only thought of it as
the Utah Brigham Young era type

1055
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:14,280
of thing.
And so then learning all this

1056
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,880
stuff, it was just kind of like,
I didn't know any of this.

1057
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:22,360
My mind is being opened.
And it was funny that we started

1058
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,040
with plural marriage and not
Adam, God or temple or anything

1059
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:29,240
like that.
I don't know why we did, but it,

1060
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:34,280
it didn't it, it didn't like
ring any put up any red flags

1061
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,560
for me.
I, I, it just felt right, I

1062
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:39,960
guess when we were reading this
doctrine, it, it was probably on

1063
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:41,720
trial was where we were reading
stuff.

1064
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:48,920
And in September, 'cause this
was July when we started reading

1065
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:54,120
it, and we just continued
reading it in September, we

1066
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:59,280
actually went out to Saint
George for a little mini weekend

1067
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,520
vacation, went to Zions Park,
and we went and did a session in

1068
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,360
the Saint George Temple.
And I am wrestling with the idea

1069
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:10,200
of plural marriage being like a
eternal doctrine because, you

1070
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,520
know, we read it in DNC 132
where Joseph asks about it.

1071
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:18,400
And, you know, DNC 132, it was
all about marriage between a man

1072
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:19,680
and woman.
It was never about plural

1073
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,240
marriage.
Like at least when I was in

1074
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:25,000
seminary, that's kind of what it
was brought up to.

1075
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,560
And but with the 18. 86
Revelation by then too.

1076
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:29,800
Oh.
Yeah, I'd read the 1886

1077
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:35,440
Revelation book at that point as
well, and that I didn't know

1078
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:37,000
about the 1886 Revelation
either.

1079
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:39,880
No, they don't teach at seminary
anymore.

1080
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:41,840
From what?
I understand, yeah, but they

1081
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:47,200
don't so and I had.
And that the 1886 revelation had

1082
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:53,520
also felt like a a truth to me,
but I hadn't, I wasn't like, I

1083
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,320
was like, OK, I gotta really
figure this out.

1084
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,760
If this is what God is wanting
me to learn.

1085
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:03,520
And if this is, this is true.
And so I think it was, yeah.

1086
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,520
We went and did a session in the
Saint George Temple and I was

1087
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,560
sitting in the celestial room
and I was praying to God,

1088
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,640
Heavenly Father.
And I was like, OK, is, is

1089
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,480
plural marriage?
Like is celestial plural

1090
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:18,240
marriage a thing?
Is it is it like, is it is this

1091
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:23,040
is a true doctrine of you and
that you that the is eternal?

1092
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:26,560
And I just had the overcoming
feeling kind of the same similar

1093
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:29,440
feeling that I had when I knew
the book Mormon was true that

1094
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:33,840
yes, plural marriage is a
doctrine of heavenly of of God

1095
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,200
like, and it's it needs to be
lived.

1096
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:40,080
And I was in the Saint George
Temple, which that was the first

1097
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:44,800
temple dedicated in Utah.
And it was a temple that plural

1098
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:49,920
marriages were performed in.
So it's it was kind of amazing

1099
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,960
to, it was not kind of, it was
amazing to me that I got the

1100
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:57,160
answer in that temple
specifically because of how many

1101
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:00,240
families, plural families were
sealed there.

1102
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,120
I've always said there's a
residue in those old temples

1103
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,480
that are that is leftover,
right?

1104
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,920
And and unless you've been there
and contemplated those things,

1105
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:13,480
you're not going to pick up on
it.

1106
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,920
But there is definitely a
residue leftover in those

1107
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,400
pioneer era temples on, on that
stuff for sure.

1108
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,120
So was there ever like an ick
factor that you had to deal with

1109
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,400
or anything like that?
Or did you get that answer and

1110
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,280
you felt like, OK, I'm, I'm
good.

1111
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,440
Yeah, there's been moments of
ick factors and just that.

1112
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:38,320
My temporal mind just being
like, it's just supposed to be

1113
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:43,680
me and my husband, but sorry, I
have to get water in a second.

1114
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:50,600
But knowing that having that
experience makes it a lot more

1115
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,920
easier to accept.
OK, I guess in a, in a sense,

1116
01:03:54,920 --> 01:04:01,560
because it, it came from God.
And having an answer like that

1117
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,320
is something that I can't deny.
I can't, I can't just shove it

1118
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,160
under the rug and be like, Oh,
no, it's fine, whatever.

1119
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:11,840
No, it was a, it was a testimony
to me from God.

1120
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:16,080
And so why, yes, I've had the,
the, the, the ick of the

1121
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:19,240
temporal, the temporal mind
being like, how can, how can I

1122
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,760
do something like this?
We, we haven't ever lived it,

1123
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:27,320
but we hope to one day.
But the the spiritual it's it.

1124
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,840
It's a lot more easier to accept
when I realized that it's a

1125
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:36,240
eternal principle and knowing
the reasons behind it so that

1126
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:38,800
more women can.
And.

1127
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:41,960
Live in a special Kingdom with
God and their husbands just

1128
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:46,680
makes it a lot more it's I'm at
peace with the doctrine.

1129
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:49,120
Sense.
All right.

1130
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,360
Well, I was going to say thank
consolation.

1131
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,280
When Amber and I first lived
plural marriage, I think we were

1132
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,640
on year.
Want more from the Mormon

1133
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,320
Renegade podcast?
Head over to the Mormon Renegade

1134
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,280
Rumble page to see all the
videos from the podcast and the

1135
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:08,400
fundamental news program for
free.

1136
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,800
Still not enough?
Then join the Mormon Renegade

1137
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:15,920
Locals page by clicking the red
join button.

1138
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:19,680
And for $5.00 a month you can
have access to podcast

1139
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:23,480
transcripts, Renegade
exclusives, as well as weekly

1140
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:26,640
live stream show with the host
Dave Sanders.

1141
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,320
Click the link in this episodes
show notes today.

1142
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:34,160
I've always said there's a
residue in those old temples

1143
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:36,520
that are that is left over,
right.

1144
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,440
And, and unless you've been
there and contemplated those

1145
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,520
things, you're not going to pick
up on it.

1146
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:45,960
But there is definitely a
residue leftover in those

1147
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:49,400
pioneer era temples on, on that
stuff for sure.

1148
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,160
So was there ever an like an ick
factor that you had to deal with

1149
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:55,440
or anything like that?
Or did you get that answer and

1150
01:05:55,440 --> 01:06:00,680
you felt like, OK, I'm I'm good?
Yeah, there's been moments of

1151
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:05,800
ick factors and just that.
My temporal mind just being like

1152
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:13,040
it's just supposed to be me and
my husband but sorry I have to

1153
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:18,600
get water in a second.
But knowing that, having that

1154
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,480
experience makes it a lot more
easier to accept.

1155
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:24,960
OK.
I guess in a, in a sense,

1156
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:31,640
because it, it came from God and
having an answer like that,

1157
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:35,360
something that I can't deny, I
can't, I can't just shove it

1158
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:37,400
under the rug and be like, Oh,
no, it's fine.

1159
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:40,960
Whatever.
No, it was a, it was a testimony

1160
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:44,320
to me from God.
And so why, yes, I've had the,

1161
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:48,120
the, the, the ick of the
temporal, the temporal mind

1162
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:50,240
being like, how can, how can I
do something like this?

1163
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:53,000
We, we haven't ever lived it,
but we hope to one day.

1164
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:59,160
But the the spiritual it's it
it's a lot more easier to accept

1165
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:03,640
when I realized that it's a
eternal principle and knowing

1166
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:09,280
the reasons behind it so that
more women can can live in a

1167
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:12,640
special Kingdom of God and their
husbands just makes it a lot

1168
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:16,680
more it's I'm at peace with the
doctrine.

1169
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:20,000
Sense.
All right, well, I was going to

1170
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,600
say thank consolation.
When Amber and I first lived

1171
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:28,720
plural marriage, I think we were
on year 12 of our marriage.

1172
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:32,200
And by then she was like, you
mean I get my bed to myself

1173
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:33,800
once, you know, every other
night?

1174
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:39,520
That sounds great to me, but but
Felipe's a better guy than I am,

1175
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:44,680
so I I get it.
So, so so you guys are are

1176
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,400
sounds like you guys are
starting to kind of like grow

1177
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,840
together in this right.
So before it starts out and it's

1178
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:56,560
like Felipe buying books.
Let's just I I just had this

1179
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:59,400
vision of Felipe buying like
back alley books from a dealer

1180
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:03,240
in downtown Salt Lake.
Like like you got any Adam God

1181
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,880
in that trench coat?
And then like he exchanges money

1182
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:11,160
and you know, he gets a a a
noggin Kraut book where it's

1183
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,160
Felipe just in the back alleys
reading the forbidden, the

1184
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:17,880
forbidden doctrines.
Now you guys are doing doing

1185
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,200
this together, right?
OK.

1186
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:25,560
And and that is the part that I
have tried to explain mainly to

1187
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:30,040
dudes, right, is like include
your wife.

1188
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:37,120
Do not, do not do this all on
your own and then try to, to

1189
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:41,560
just quote, bring her along,
right, Because there is a lot of

1190
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,479
growth that happens in that
time.

1191
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:49,160
And I, I've seen it over and
over again where guys will, will

1192
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:51,120
read this, they'll get converted
to it.

1193
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,720
And then they're so excited,
right?

1194
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,840
Not not just about plural
marriage, but Adam God about,

1195
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:01,080
you know, the, the ordinances
and their fullness, those sorts

1196
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:03,479
of things that all of a sudden
they just show up and they're so

1197
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:06,640
excited and they're like, guess
what, sweetheart, I just found

1198
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:08,600
out fundamentalism's a real
thing.

1199
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:12,000
And then just word vomit all
over them and then freak out

1200
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:15,080
their wives, right.
So now you guys are growing

1201
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:17,240
together in this.
Felipe, what does that feel like

1202
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:22,240
to you as you as, as you're now
able to confide in your wife, as

1203
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:24,040
you're, you're studying these
things?

1204
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:28,439
So I was relief like she was
struggling, especially with

1205
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:30,240
plural marriage.
And that was my regret.

1206
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:32,160
I feel like I should have
started with Adam God because

1207
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,040
that was my main interest was
Adam God.

1208
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,560
But it was happy he hadn't
divorced me or anything.

1209
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:45,880
Reported me to the bishopric and
you know, plural ants was

1210
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:47,640
hitting her heart.
So I was like, OK, I will read

1211
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:49,720
about how about we read about
Adam God instead?

1212
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,760
It's cool stuff.
This is awesome. 1 here.

1213
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:58,080
It it was hitting me hard, but I
also had that anchor of that

1214
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:00,840
testimony I had from my mission
with Joseph Smith in the Book of

1215
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:02,680
Mormon.
I knew that was true.

1216
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:05,760
Everything else I could figure
out, but I knew that was true

1217
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,840
and I couldn't deny it.
So I'm glad I had my anchor.

1218
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:12,280
So let me ask you this, Mary
Lynn, as, as now you guys are

1219
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:14,760
starting to to study these
things together.

1220
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:18,880
Does it feel like you've got
your husband back a little bit?

1221
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:21,680
Because I can imagine it's
probably a lonely feeling right

1222
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,120
after you get sealed, a few
months afterwards, they make

1223
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:26,560
this temple change.
Felipe's like I'm out.

1224
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:30,920
Right it is.
What are you feeling as you guys

1225
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,040
are starting to study this stuff
together?

1226
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:39,640
I'm feeling, yeah, I'm, I'm
feeling like the gospel and the

1227
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:46,000
spiritual aspect of like, what's
the word I'm looking for?

1228
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:48,160
Like the Spirit is coming back
into our relationship.

1229
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:52,160
I mean, we, I don't think I ever
felt lonely because we were

1230
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:55,000
always together doing stuff.
But I also felt lonely in the,

1231
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:58,960
in the gospel, I guess.
So I, I felt like that was

1232
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,440
coming back because we were
studying things together.

1233
01:11:01,440 --> 01:11:04,280
We were doing church things.
Even if we weren't going to

1234
01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:07,000
church together, he still wasn't
really going to church with me,

1235
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:10,160
but I because I'd still be going
and then people would be in

1236
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,560
really society.
Oh, the doctrine, the principles

1237
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:14,560
are the policies are changing,
not the doctrine.

1238
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:20,480
I'd be sitting there like no,
no, no, no, I'm studying stuff

1239
01:11:20,480 --> 01:11:22,640
over here.
I didn't I I regret not saying

1240
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:26,520
anything, but I'm like doctrines
are totally changing.

1241
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:31,600
Right, right.
Well, you know, I, I know that

1242
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:35,760
feeling, right, of being sitting
in church and being like, oh,

1243
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:38,600
no, you guys are all wrong.
But it's a good thing we don't

1244
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:40,400
say something.
Because here's the other thing

1245
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:45,960
that I believe, right, is that
sometimes once we've discovered

1246
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:49,120
this stuff, if we are just too
quick to throw it out there, we

1247
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:51,720
can do more damage than we can.
Good, right?

1248
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:55,920
Like, as, as both of you know,
this upsets your entire

1249
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:58,160
worldview, right?
I mean, Mary Lynn, you were, you

1250
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:02,480
were raised in a dynamic that
said no matter what else happens

1251
01:12:02,480 --> 01:12:08,960
in the world, at least the
church and its principles and

1252
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,880
doctrine do not change, right.
And so you got to be careful

1253
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:15,440
when you introduce this, right?
You don't want to just.

1254
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:18,360
Yeah, everything.
You know, that's not really.

1255
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:20,760
Yeah, No, it's all them flux,
right?

1256
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:25,920
That doesn't necessarily lend
itself to to A to stability,

1257
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:29,400
right from a faith perspective.
So I guess in a sense it was

1258
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:31,720
good I didn't say anything
because the Spirit didn't tell

1259
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:34,200
me to say anything.
The natural man in me, I'm like,

1260
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:37,040
oh, I wanted to say some stuff,
right?

1261
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,640
But, but no, I, I think that
often times we're actually

1262
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:45,560
constrained by the spirit in
those moments so that we don't

1263
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:48,480
do more harm than good.
All right, so you guys are

1264
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:50,720
studying this stuff together.
You're coming together.

1265
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:52,320
And this is a question for both
of you.

1266
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:54,080
What?
And, and whoever wants to

1267
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,000
answer, you can take turns.
What happens next?

1268
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:06,920
So As for me, I for me, the
biggest thing that really like

1269
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:11,120
set me against the church, not
like against the church, like I

1270
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:14,040
want to fight it, but more I
don't want to be a part of this

1271
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:16,680
anymore.
I learned of the temple changes.

1272
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:22,840
Granted the the 2019 ones kind
of bugged me, but it was more

1273
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:26,960
like oh I'm following a prophet.
I learned that this was not the

1274
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:32,040
first time things have changed.
I did not know that until I

1275
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:36,040
learned it.
And knowing that things changed

1276
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:38,880
in the 90s, things changed in
the 80s things changed things.

1277
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,760
Things changed way back with
Heber J Grant.

1278
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:48,080
Learning that broke my heart
because the temple is so

1279
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:52,560
important to me.
I was a teenager going and doing

1280
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:56,600
Baptons for the Dead.
I as soon as I got my endowments

1281
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:58,000
I would.
When I was going to school at

1282
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,720
BYU Idaho, I tried to go to the
temple once a week and do an

1283
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:04,360
endowment session.
Before I was in doubt.

1284
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:07,960
I would go and try to do at
least like I'd try once a week.

1285
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:10,800
Sometimes it'd be more to do
Baptons for the dead, like I

1286
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:16,120
love the temple and it and
learning that things changed and

1287
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:18,760
it wasn't just like wording and
stuff.

1288
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:23,640
It was actual doctrine in the in
the IT was covenants that had

1289
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:26,440
been changed.
It was those kinds of things

1290
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:29,400
that my ancestors participated
in.

1291
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:33,800
I didn't have that anymore.
And I'm like, how can all of

1292
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:39,960
this be the same of the same
validity if things have changed?

1293
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:47,920
And so that was honestly the
biggest thing for me was just, I

1294
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:51,800
decided to step away from the
church because I wanted to have

1295
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:55,760
the temple and the temple that
was there was not the temple I

1296
01:14:55,760 --> 01:15:00,640
wanted anymore.
The, the, the like taking away

1297
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:04,800
that the covenant to your
husband, something so special

1298
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,520
and taking that away is just
heartbreaking.

1299
01:15:08,480 --> 01:15:16,840
And that was the biggest thing
for me is learning that there

1300
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:22,000
were so many changes.
And so then we we just kept

1301
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:24,200
studying.
You know I want.

1302
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:26,640
Hold on, Felipe, and I'm going
to come back to you in a second,

1303
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:28,320
but I want to speak to something
you said.

1304
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:32,680
And and that's why when when
people say, well, what does it

1305
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:36,800
matter, you know, if if it's
changed, right.

1306
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:41,520
And my contention here is this,
if that changes, you have to

1307
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:44,360
come to one of two conclusions,
right?

1308
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:47,400
Especially when you read the
quote as that Joseph made that,

1309
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:51,840
hey, where there's no change of
ordinances, there's no change of

1310
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:54,840
priesthood.
And the the ordinances are

1311
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:59,640
revealed from Adam to man and
are not to be changed or altered

1312
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:03,840
in any way.
So that leaves you with one of

1313
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:10,600
two options, right?
One is that those changes should

1314
01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:14,920
not have been made, which puts
you in flux, right, because now

1315
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:18,680
that bedrock that you thought
you sat on, not so much.

1316
01:16:19,480 --> 01:16:24,600
Or two, God's respecter of
persons which God could says he

1317
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:28,200
is not because of all have to be
say again quoting Joseph Smith.

1318
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:32,400
If all have to be saved on the
same principles, right, and the

1319
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:38,280
same covenants.
Well, OK, so are we special or

1320
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:41,760
were our ancestors special that
they had to, to do something

1321
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:44,080
different?
And if that's the case and, and

1322
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:47,000
you say that this generation is
better than this generation,

1323
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:50,120
then that turns God into
something that he clearly says

1324
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:54,360
he's not, which is a respecter
of persons, right?

1325
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:58,600
And so when, when, when?
And, and I've always said the

1326
01:16:58,600 --> 01:17:01,120
ordinances are key, right?
Because when people understand

1327
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:06,840
the ordinances, things really
take on a different cue, right

1328
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:08,560
thing.
The, the color of it changes

1329
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:11,520
quite a bit.
And, and where that line is now

1330
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,560
firmly gets, gets planted.
I can also understand what you

1331
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:18,560
said when you, you said it was
just sad, right?

1332
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:22,200
I, there, there were times where
I felt like it was like watching

1333
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:25,640
an old friend die, right?
And you just had to sit there

1334
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:27,800
and hold his hand because
there's not much else you can

1335
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:29,000
do.
So.

1336
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:31,240
So I can really resonate with
that.

1337
01:17:31,240 --> 01:17:32,760
Felipe, what were you going to
say next?

1338
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:36,280
Sorry man.
So yeah, like after, afterwards

1339
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:41,680
I reach out to a group and they
they reach out to me like a a

1340
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:45,200
month later, I had drill that
Saturday we decided to meet.

1341
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:49,560
And so I talked to their
missionaries and my question was

1342
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:53,480
Adam, God, like I asked him,
when I'm worship praying to

1343
01:17:53,480 --> 01:17:57,400
heavenly Father, am I praying to
Adam?

1344
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:01,360
And they explained it to me.
That made more sense because I

1345
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:03,840
was still confused.
I was still like, but isn't

1346
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:07,480
Jesus, Jehovah?
And that same day, Marilyn and I

1347
01:18:07,480 --> 01:18:09,880
had a a date.
We were going to go eat at the

1348
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:12,200
roof up at the just like moral
building.

1349
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:15,560
So like, while we're at the
roof, Marilyn makes a little

1350
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:16,880
jokes.
And do you think we're going to

1351
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:18,440
have like another woman in our
family?

1352
01:18:18,440 --> 01:18:20,240
And I'm like, what kind of
scared?

1353
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:23,600
Because I, I spoke to some
funding missionaries that same

1354
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:31,000
day without letting her know.
So we drive back and you don't

1355
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:32,120
remember.
I think I explained to her,

1356
01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:34,840
Adam, God, the way the
missionaries explained it to me.

1357
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:38,720
And I asked her, are you OK if I
talk to some fundamentalist

1358
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:40,800
missionaries?
And she said, yeah, I'm like,

1359
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:42,760
good, because I spoke to them
earlier today.

1360
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:47,560
Wanted to ask forgiveness and
permission.

1361
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:49,000
That's exactly where I was
going.

1362
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:52,640
So, so Marilyn, at this time,
how are you feeling about the

1363
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:55,800
Adam God Doctrine?
So this is actually, I hadn't

1364
01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:58,760
really delved into it at all
before this moment.

1365
01:18:59,920 --> 01:19:03,840
And so he's kind of explaining
it to me and it doesn't make

1366
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:08,280
sense in my brain because, you
know, you're set on Michael,

1367
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:14,160
Adam, Jesus, Jehovah, Elohim,
Heavenly Father.

1368
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:20,720
So being told that Adam, God,
Michael is our Father didn't

1369
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,080
make sense, but at the same time
it felt right.

1370
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:28,160
And so I, I said to him, I was
like, you know, that doesn't, it

1371
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:29,920
doesn't make sense to me, but it
feels right.

1372
01:19:31,680 --> 01:19:34,400
And so, and I'm like, I don't
know why it feels right and I

1373
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:37,560
want to learn more and study
more, but it just doesn't make

1374
01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:40,640
sense.
And so we, we studied more and

1375
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:43,960
then I came, it came to the, it
was explained to me very clear

1376
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:49,560
that it's Michael's our father
and that Michael or that Adam,

1377
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:52,040
Jehovah and Elohim are
priesthood titles.

1378
01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:57,200
So that Michael does become a
Jehovah, Jesus does become a

1379
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:03,160
Jehovah, but in the in the
temple ceremony, in the

1380
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:10,160
endowment, it's not Jesus is not
Jehovah in that it's our

1381
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:15,120
grandfather God in in that.
And then Elohim represents the

1382
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:20,640
the council of the gods.
And so understanding the

1383
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:22,880
generation of the gods, that
yes.

1384
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:26,040
Michael Adam is our father, our
heavenly Father.

1385
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:29,200
He's who we pray to, but he has
a father and his father has a

1386
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:31,600
father.
And you know that their fathers

1387
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:35,480
had multiple children and so
there's cousins and cousin gods.

1388
01:20:35,480 --> 01:20:39,000
And like, I don't understand at
all because you know, our my

1389
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:41,280
brain would explode if I
realized how many gods around

1390
01:20:41,480 --> 01:20:46,480
how many universes and whatever.
But but understanding that

1391
01:20:46,480 --> 01:20:49,200
there's a plurality of gods,
it's not just one God, but yes,

1392
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:52,160
we pray to our heavenly Father
helped me understand the Adam

1393
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:57,200
God doctrine more.
And it's also so beautiful and

1394
01:20:57,440 --> 01:21:00,320
it's such a beautiful doctrine
because we are literal children

1395
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:05,120
of our heavenly Father.
And when Jesus was praying, this

1396
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:06,480
is something that so touches my
heart.

1397
01:21:06,480 --> 01:21:10,920
When Jesus was praying in the
garden, he said ABBA and he'd

1398
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:13,840
like basically calling out to
him and help because he's in so

1399
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:17,640
much pain and who comes to him?
We've been told it was Michael

1400
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:21,000
that came to him, which who is
his father?

1401
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:25,920
And no, understanding that
Michael is our father just makes

1402
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:29,560
that that feeling of God going
to his father, going to him in

1403
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:32,040
the garden, not just an
Archangel, not just a messenger,

1404
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:33,800
it's his literal father.
Look.

1405
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:41,720
I'll, I'll say this, the one
thing that that I that once I

1406
01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:44,920
got a testimony of the Adam God
doctrine and it came to me

1407
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:48,160
differently than it than any
other doctrine, right?

1408
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:51,920
I had to feel it before I could
reason with it, right?

1409
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:54,160
I, I don't know if that's a
safeguard.

1410
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:57,920
I don't know why that's there.
But once I did accept it, then I

1411
01:21:57,920 --> 01:22:00,760
saw the evidences all over the
place, right?

1412
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:04,280
But those were kind of kept from
me until I just went to God

1413
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:08,760
himself and said, is this true?
And then when it was revealed it

1414
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:11,160
wasn't more than a month or two
after that, I start seeing

1415
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:14,800
evidences for all over the place
right now.

1416
01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:18,520
The thing I liked about the Adam
God doctrine, the thing that

1417
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:22,320
bore testimony that it was real,
as as I started to apply that in

1418
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:28,160
my life, right, it gave me
proximity to deity, right?

1419
01:22:28,440 --> 01:22:32,200
No longer was God just simply
out there.

1420
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:35,880
You don't know much about him,
anything else.

1421
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:38,320
All the sudden he was here.
He was here.

1422
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:45,640
His feet touched the earth.
He is not just my spiritual

1423
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:48,280
father.
He's my earthly father right

1424
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:51,200
now.
If I can relate to this now, if

1425
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:58,120
I love my kids right and I know
the feelings of of that paternal

1426
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:03,320
bond that is there, wow, That
means that Adam and Slash

1427
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:05,320
Michael feels the same way about
me.

1428
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:08,760
That's a beautiful, beautiful
thing.

1429
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:11,960
Now once you guys accept it,
right?

1430
01:23:12,280 --> 01:23:14,400
Again, not not having it makes
sense.

1431
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:17,000
Do you guys start to see
evidences of it popping up

1432
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:19,320
everywhere for you as you start
studying?

1433
01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:24,000
So I was always into, I was
always fascinated with a

1434
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:27,600
biblical archaeology and
biblical scholarship, especially

1435
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:34,600
from the academic standpoint.
And around that time, you know,

1436
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:36,680
I start following these biblical
scholars that start talking

1437
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:39,680
about the Council of Gods in
ancient Israel.

1438
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:43,160
And my oldest sister would like
to get, she was Vermont

1439
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:45,080
theistic.
She would say, where does the

1440
01:23:45,080 --> 01:23:46,560
Bible say this?
Where does this sit?

1441
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:48,200
Like only Mormons say this
stuff.

1442
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:50,680
And I start running into these
biblical scholars.

1443
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:53,920
They're very liberal, but I
enjoy them because I get to

1444
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:55,840
learn more things.
And they start pointing out how

1445
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,800
the Old Testament actually
points out to the council of

1446
01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:02,000
gods these things that Mormons
take for granted.

1447
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:07,440
They were there and they start
also showing like it, like how

1448
01:24:07,440 --> 01:24:10,680
possibly the when the ancient
Jews became atheistic, how they

1449
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:13,520
edited it out and all these
puzzles start coming in

1450
01:24:13,520 --> 01:24:16,000
together.
Because prior to that time, the

1451
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:19,040
only time I ever heard about the
Council of gods was through

1452
01:24:19,120 --> 01:24:22,680
Mormonism.
But then when I start, you know,

1453
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:26,000
studying biblical scholarship,
the, you have all these other

1454
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:28,120
scholars talking about the
council of God in ancient

1455
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:32,080
Israel, this ancient pantheon,
these families of gods, the God

1456
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:37,160
L, the God Yahweh.
And I also started reading that

1457
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:39,680
there was an ancient temple in
Egypt built by Jews that was

1458
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:42,200
approved by Jerusalem.
I can't remember the name of the

1459
01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:45,160
temple of Ephalemd and I, I'm
butchering the word, but that

1460
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:48,040
temple was dedicated to Yahweh
and his two wives.

1461
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:50,280
And when I read about that, I'm
like, whoa.

1462
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:57,000
And you know, I, and I also
brought up AI can't remember the

1463
01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:59,440
quote, but it was bring me.
I'm talking about Adam having

1464
01:24:59,440 --> 01:25:03,000
his wives with them.
Now, I'm not saying that's

1465
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:05,360
evidence that the ancients
believed in the Adam God, but it

1466
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:08,360
implies that Mormonism,
especially the way that when

1467
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:11,640
bringing young, taught Adam and
God, he wasn't pulling things

1468
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:13,960
out of the hat.
There was like an ancient

1469
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:16,480
origin.
I was feeling comfort with that.

1470
01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:21,800
And so I accept Adam God.
And it was also conflicted to me

1471
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:24,720
because I was someone who
didn't, who always saw Adam as a

1472
01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:26,400
symbolic figure.
I'm not.

1473
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:29,000
I don't consider myself a
literalist in the biblical

1474
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:31,440
sense, in the, in the, in the
sense that I take everything in

1475
01:25:31,440 --> 01:25:33,920
the Bible literally, but I take
things in the Bible very

1476
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:35,880
serious.
But that was a conflict for me

1477
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:38,640
as well, because that was
someone who grew up believing

1478
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,720
that, you know, we did come from
monkeys, things like that, You

1479
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:46,880
know, if we come from a divine
human, how can I reconfigure

1480
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:51,120
these two things?
So I, I was really, it was

1481
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:55,520
really putting me into like a, a
stage of soul searching like

1482
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:56,880
Adam got it was making sense to
me.

1483
01:25:56,880 --> 01:25:59,440
But then I had these other
beliefs where I'm like, but you

1484
01:25:59,440 --> 01:26:01,080
know, what about these things,
these things?

1485
01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:03,920
And so I'm praying.
I'm like, OK, I need to know

1486
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:06,040
this is true.
Like is this just jumble or is

1487
01:26:06,040 --> 01:26:08,440
this real stuff?
And I pray about it and I start

1488
01:26:08,440 --> 01:26:16,360
feeling discomfort and it's the
hell you earlier the Adam God

1489
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:17,880
doctrine.
You feel more connected to God.

1490
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:21,560
It's more personal instead of
putting God it behind a veil

1491
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:24,480
where he's just like a
mysterious figure, a non

1492
01:26:25,480 --> 01:26:27,800
physical being.
It felt more personal you.

1493
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:30,920
I felt more protected.
I feel like I had a protection

1494
01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:34,080
with me.
I feel like or before that I

1495
01:26:34,080 --> 01:26:36,680
feel like a spiritual orphan
because we would say they would

1496
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:39,000
at church.
They would teach us that we have

1497
01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:41,680
a heavenly Father, but we don't
know too much about him.

1498
01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:47,680
And then I start accepting these
doctrines and I start feeling

1499
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:50,120
discomfort coming to me like
it's like, no, we do have

1500
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:52,640
heavenly parents.
We do have a Father that loves

1501
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:58,080
us.
And you know, at that time, I

1502
01:26:58,080 --> 01:27:00,400
was already through with the LDS
church because of the changes

1503
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:03,120
going on.
I, I didn't feel like it was

1504
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:05,720
coming from God, But if people
feel comfortable that way, you

1505
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:07,600
know, with the changes, that's
good for them.

1506
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:09,280
But I wasn't comfortable with
it.

1507
01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:11,120
I want to experience the
endowments.

1508
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:12,680
I want to learn more about Adam,
God.

1509
01:27:14,160 --> 01:27:19,960
So we, we reach out to a group,
the group that I reached out

1510
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:26,120
earlier, we start going to their
gatherings and a lot of the

1511
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:30,400
stuff that we're teaching made
sense and we decided to get

1512
01:27:30,400 --> 01:27:33,320
baptized.
Who was it around December?

1513
01:27:33,320 --> 01:27:37,360
Well, we decided to get baptized
around November and then after

1514
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:40,880
it was probably like around
December, December.

1515
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:45,640
First, No, no, November 30th, we
got baptized a year after our

1516
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:48,240
first or on the day after our
first anniversary.

1517
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:51,040
Yeah.
OK, that's a hell of a year.

1518
01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:55,000
Yeah.
And I'm like, after we got

1519
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:57,400
baptized, I was wondering how
we're going to tell our families

1520
01:27:57,720 --> 01:27:59,160
that we joined a fundamentalist
group.

1521
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:04,280
Right.
And so I first go to my older

1522
01:28:04,280 --> 01:28:08,000
sister.
I told her that we left the LDS

1523
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:11,560
Church and we joined a
fundamentalist group.

1524
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:15,080
And she said, oh, no, don't tell
me that stuff.

1525
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:17,400
I sent you encourage you to join
fundamentalism.

1526
01:28:18,040 --> 01:28:21,240
And I told her, oh, yeah.
And she was like, oh, crap, It

1527
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:24,080
backfired on me.
I'm like, yeah, I did.

1528
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:30,680
But surprisingly, she was very,
she was very supportive.

1529
01:28:31,640 --> 01:28:33,920
She said, well, at least you're
going to actually live your

1530
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:36,000
religion of what your leaders
actually taught and we can

1531
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:38,480
actually have an honest
conversation, right?

1532
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:41,640
I was like.
And this is I I love his older

1533
01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:46,280
sister.
She is such a disciple of

1534
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:48,800
Christ.
I can tell that she loves her

1535
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:51,880
savior.
Granted she's totally anti

1536
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:57,760
Mormon and against it, but she
her and I get along so well if

1537
01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:02,000
as long as we stick to the the
Christian centered values and

1538
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:08,480
and have the honest
conversations of Christ.

1539
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:14,600
And so the fact that she was,
she's so supportive of us being

1540
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:19,840
like fundamentalist, she's so
supportive of it because she's

1541
01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:21,880
like, well, that's what Mormon's
taught.

1542
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:23,280
So I'm glad you're actually
living it.

1543
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:26,760
That's awesome.
What what was your family's take

1544
01:29:26,760 --> 01:29:27,920
on it?
Right.

1545
01:29:29,440 --> 01:29:32,400
So, so, so here's what I
discovered personally, right?

1546
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:36,480
Because again, not being raised
in the LDS church, right, going

1547
01:29:36,480 --> 01:29:40,600
into it as, as a young man,
when, when I, when I told my

1548
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:41,960
side of the family what I was
about.

1549
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:44,240
And they're like, so you're
going to have like what, you're

1550
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:45,680
going to end up with a couple
wives.

1551
01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:47,800
I'm like, I, I don't know,
right?

1552
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:50,560
Like I, I don't know, right.
I'm just telling you.

1553
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:53,280
And they're like, well, it's not
a big deal.

1554
01:29:53,280 --> 01:29:55,600
We just figured that's what
Mormons do anyway, right?

1555
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:59,160
And, and so it was, you know, it
wasn't a big deal to them, but

1556
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:02,120
to, to, to Amber's family.
It was huge, right?

1557
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:08,280
Because, because you're
upsetting the idea of what

1558
01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:10,960
heaven's going to look like for
them, right?

1559
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:15,320
Because there, there is a, it's
sneaky, right?

1560
01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:18,120
I, I'll say that there, there,
there is a thing where, where

1561
01:30:18,440 --> 01:30:20,720
you kind of feel like your
family's being held hostage,

1562
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:23,640
right?
And, and we read into things in

1563
01:30:23,640 --> 01:30:29,000
132 that just aren't there.
And, and so that, that becomes a

1564
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:30,920
huge issue.
So what was your experience as

1565
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:32,680
you told your family what was
going on?

1566
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:36,840
It was kind of the opposite of
what sleeping experience was.

1567
01:30:37,480 --> 01:30:41,960
So when we told his family,
they're all like, oh, weren't

1568
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:44,000
you already living that?
Weren't you already, like,

1569
01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:48,480
believe that?
Hanson, my grandma.

1570
01:30:48,520 --> 01:30:50,560
Since they assume Mormons were
already polygamists, they're

1571
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:53,080
Catholics, so they had that
thought.

1572
01:30:53,840 --> 01:31:00,080
So I, we're telling my family
and it's not, it doesn't go very

1573
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:02,960
well.
Granted, things are good now,

1574
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:05,960
but they were, they were
worried.

1575
01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:12,560
They were basically saying
you're doing something wrong.

1576
01:31:13,720 --> 01:31:18,240
You're, you're stepping away
from something that I, I, that's

1577
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:21,320
something you always know.
And I'm, I'm worried about.

1578
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:24,040
We want you to be in heaven with
us.

1579
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:26,720
I'm worried about that.
They were blaming Felipe.

1580
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:31,680
They're like he's he's taking
you away and this was all my

1581
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:36,160
decision.
I didn't just decide to follow

1582
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:41,360
along like a little blind sheep
follow, follow this guy that's

1583
01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:45,240
teaching me this stuff.
I prayed and fasted.

1584
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:51,680
I decided to leave on my own.
It wasn't, yes, he helped push

1585
01:31:51,680 --> 01:31:54,880
me along like in a sense that he
introduced this stuff to me.

1586
01:31:55,160 --> 01:31:57,880
But did I just say, OK,
whatever.

1587
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:00,520
No, I wouldn't do that.
My whole life has been centered

1588
01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:06,000
around this church.
Like everything about what I

1589
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:10,040
ever did was because of the the
gospel and, and the Mormon

1590
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:12,240
church.
So it was kind of almost

1591
01:32:12,240 --> 01:32:15,760
insulting in a way.
I mean, insulting with love.

1592
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:18,880
They were doing it out of love,
but it was almost insulting in a

1593
01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:22,200
way of they were saying you're
not intelligent enough to make

1594
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:23,960
these decisions on your own.
You're just following your

1595
01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:27,320
husband.
And I'm like, no, I mean, they

1596
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:30,160
didn't say that to me, but
that's the what was implied,

1597
01:32:31,160 --> 01:32:34,280
that blaming Felipe was implied
that I couldn't make the

1598
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:39,880
decision on my own.
And so they, they would

1599
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:44,240
constantly try to come back at
me when I would try, when I try

1600
01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:49,400
to share doctrines with them,
like the 1886 revelation or Adam

1601
01:32:49,400 --> 01:32:52,720
God or plural marriage or temple
changes, they would just come

1602
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:56,080
back at me with, well, the
prophet says this or well,

1603
01:32:56,200 --> 01:32:58,200
we're, we're, we're probably
going to live plural marriage

1604
01:32:58,200 --> 01:33:04,240
one day in the next life or that
Adam, God doesn't make sense.

1605
01:33:04,240 --> 01:33:06,400
That's totally false.
Like they'd come back at me.

1606
01:33:06,400 --> 01:33:08,600
So I got to a point where I
stopped sharing doctrines with

1607
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:12,200
them because I would try and try
and it was kind of like you said

1608
01:33:12,200 --> 01:33:14,920
earlier, someone's not heart's
not open to accept it.

1609
01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:17,920
They're just going to reject it
and it could do more damage than

1610
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:21,080
good.
So I got to a point where I

1611
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:28,600
stopped staring things.
And it, it was hard too, because

1612
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:34,000
Felipe had a lot of persecution
from my family as well, blaming

1613
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:36,000
him.
And, and it's not, it wasn't his

1614
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:38,320
fault.
It was a decision that I made.

1615
01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:41,000
It's, it's honestly the truth.
Why?

1616
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:43,680
Why is the finding the truth his
fault?

1617
01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:49,560
Like, and we've gotten to a
point now where we can still

1618
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:51,800
have conversations because we
have the same basis.

1619
01:33:51,800 --> 01:33:54,720
I mean, we all believe in Joseph
Smith, We all believe in Brigham

1620
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:57,400
Young, we all believe in John
Taylor, We all believe in Jesus

1621
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:00,120
Christ.
We all, we all have the same, we

1622
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:02,680
all Book of Mormon, like, we all
have the same basics.

1623
01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:04,000
So my mom and I will have
conversations.

1624
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:05,280
What did you learn in church
today?

1625
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:08,120
But well, I learned this like
so.

1626
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:11,680
It's gotten to a very positive
point now, but for a while there

1627
01:34:11,680 --> 01:34:14,360
was negative and not.
Very happy.

1628
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:17,640
And, and I, I think, I think
that's beautiful.

1629
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:21,640
And I think that's one of the
things that that there has to be

1630
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:23,800
a recognition on both sides of
this, right?

1631
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:27,240
When someone decides they're
going to become a fundamentalist

1632
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:30,240
and start, you know, adhering to
some of these older teachings

1633
01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:34,600
and, and maybe living some of
these other principles, is that

1634
01:34:34,920 --> 01:34:38,640
1 is as, as the people coming
out of the church, we have to

1635
01:34:38,640 --> 01:34:43,360
look at our family and we have
to understand because, look, I

1636
01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:49,360
never want fundamentalism being
blamed for breaking up a family

1637
01:34:49,360 --> 01:34:51,080
as Mormons.
That's just not what we're

1638
01:34:51,080 --> 01:34:54,200
about, right?
And so it's going to take a

1639
01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:58,160
little bit of understanding on
both sides now from those coming

1640
01:34:58,440 --> 01:35:01,160
out of the church and into
fundamentalism.

1641
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:06,200
There has to be a recognition
that, hey, this is upsetting

1642
01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:08,120
what they have been taught,
right?

1643
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:10,840
In their minds.
They are losing their child,

1644
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:14,120
they are losing their brother,
they are losing their husband.

1645
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:18,440
Whatever it is there, there's a
feeling of loss because there's

1646
01:35:18,440 --> 01:35:20,720
this idea.
And again, I don't even blame

1647
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:22,920
the church in this.
I think this is probably just

1648
01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:26,920
kind of Mormon, Mormon folklore,
so to speak, that that maybe

1649
01:35:26,920 --> 01:35:31,320
we've allowed to creep in that,
hey, if, if someone's not here,

1650
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:34,920
they're lost forever and we'll
never see them again, right?

1651
01:35:34,920 --> 01:35:37,960
And so it's, it's upsetting that
and we have to be cognizant of

1652
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:41,480
that and we have to be gentle
with that and maybe even correct

1653
01:35:41,480 --> 01:35:42,680
that when we get that
opportunity.

1654
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:47,320
I believe it's 1:30 or 1:00 or
1:30 where where God tells

1655
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:50,680
Joseph the same sociality that
exists here is going to exist on

1656
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:55,040
the other side, right?
And so it, it, that's before

1657
01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:58,840
132, which means that that
what's been read into that

1658
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:03,160
doesn't really exist, right?
Obviously there are degrees of

1659
01:36:03,160 --> 01:36:07,400
glory and those sorts of things,
but whoever's, whoever's writing

1660
01:36:07,400 --> 01:36:10,280
this thing will always have the
opportunity to visit their loved

1661
01:36:10,280 --> 01:36:12,760
ones.
So no one's getting lost, right?

1662
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:17,480
And that's important that, that
we recognize that as us coming

1663
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:21,040
into fundamentalism.
And, and I would say for those

1664
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:24,920
who, who are in the LDS church
and, and listening, I would just

1665
01:36:24,920 --> 01:36:28,320
say, we're not trying to break
heaven for you.

1666
01:36:28,320 --> 01:36:31,320
That's not what we're doing.
We are following the dictates of

1667
01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:35,280
our conscience as we have
received more light knowledge

1668
01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:39,280
and understand what this is.
And there's far more that unites

1669
01:36:39,280 --> 01:36:42,840
us than separates us, right in,
in this argument.

1670
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:45,960
I, I, I've said this before,
I've said it about, you know,

1671
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:49,400
groups as they kind of fight
with one another or independence

1672
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:52,360
struggle against, you know,
organized groups or whatever.

1673
01:36:52,360 --> 01:36:54,560
I'm like, we're having the wrong
conversation, right?

1674
01:36:55,240 --> 01:36:57,960
We're all children of the
restoration here, right?

1675
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:01,480
And meanwhile we're fighting
about who gets what room and the

1676
01:37:01,480 --> 01:37:04,440
adversary to us all is burning
down the house, right?

1677
01:37:04,440 --> 01:37:07,640
Let's, let's get our priorities
straight here a little bit and

1678
01:37:07,640 --> 01:37:09,760
maybe stand together where we
can.

1679
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:12,440
We may not be able to hug it out
on Sundays, but we should sure

1680
01:37:12,440 --> 01:37:14,640
figure out how to work together
and have a barbecue on a

1681
01:37:14,640 --> 01:37:17,600
Saturday.
And so I, I think, I think what

1682
01:37:17,600 --> 01:37:21,200
you said there is, is
absolutely, 100% the truth.

1683
01:37:21,200 --> 01:37:26,800
And, and to go along with that,
just this past summer, late

1684
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:31,280
summer, Amber's mom came up,
came down here to Missouri and

1685
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:34,400
got a tour of the temple and
everything else.

1686
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:37,800
And it was, it was kind of a
sweet experience, right?

1687
01:37:38,240 --> 01:37:40,760
And but it, it, it, it takes
time.

1688
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:43,760
That's the other thing I I'll
say is don't get discouraged

1689
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:46,520
because there's going to be
moments where it feels like

1690
01:37:46,520 --> 01:37:51,200
everything's falling apart, but
time and understanding have a

1691
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:53,320
way of mending all these things
back together.

1692
01:37:53,320 --> 01:37:56,840
We just have to give it the time
it needs and make it a matter of

1693
01:37:56,840 --> 01:38:03,800
prayer and just lead with your
heart on this and on both sides.

1694
01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:07,040
Remember, nobody's doing this to
screw up heaven for anybody

1695
01:38:07,040 --> 01:38:10,400
else, right?
It's just what we've come to

1696
01:38:10,400 --> 01:38:13,440
inside the restoration.
Yeah, yeah.

1697
01:38:13,440 --> 01:38:16,160
And you know, I made, I honestly
made the mistake at the

1698
01:38:16,200 --> 01:38:19,160
beginning of being like, I'm
right, you're wrong.

1699
01:38:19,400 --> 01:38:21,160
And they're being we're right,
you're wrong.

1700
01:38:22,080 --> 01:38:25,720
And so I had to learn that too.
That principle of, you know,

1701
01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:29,840
it's, it's shaking their world
and they may not be open to that

1702
01:38:29,840 --> 01:38:32,720
and they may, they, they're
feeling that they're in the

1703
01:38:32,720 --> 01:38:36,440
right.
And so we've cut it.

1704
01:38:36,440 --> 01:38:38,520
It was rocky at first for both
sides.

1705
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:41,360
And IA 100% agree with you.
You have to come to the

1706
01:38:41,360 --> 01:38:46,560
realization that we can be, we
can hug it out on Saturday with

1707
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:50,960
a BBQ.
We can, we can, we may not go to

1708
01:38:51,160 --> 01:38:56,080
church the same place on
Sundays, but it doesn't it, it

1709
01:38:56,320 --> 01:38:58,440
the gospel is true no matter
where you're at.

1710
01:38:58,440 --> 01:39:00,480
Like there's truth in the LDS
church.

1711
01:39:00,480 --> 01:39:05,160
I love the LDS church so much.
I remember I was talking to

1712
01:39:05,160 --> 01:39:08,000
somebody and I'm like, did I
just waste 18 months of my life

1713
01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:11,760
when I was on a mission?
Did I did I like spread things

1714
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:14,520
that were not true?
And they were like, no, you

1715
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:18,360
didn't waste your 18 months.
You, you were spreading truth.

1716
01:39:18,640 --> 01:39:21,160
Were you doing what was right?
Were you doing God's work?

1717
01:39:21,480 --> 01:39:25,200
Absolutely.
The LDS church says amazing

1718
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:29,720
things for so many people.
And the the missionary work is

1719
01:39:30,040 --> 01:39:33,240
incredible, spreading the news
of the restoration of the

1720
01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:37,320
gospel.
And if, if that's where someone

1721
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:42,040
chooses to say stay, there's
nothing wrong with that, that

1722
01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:46,600
the, it's wherever God wants you
to be is where you need to be.

1723
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:53,280
And nobody should, nobody should
be judged for choosing to step

1724
01:39:53,280 --> 01:39:55,720
out of the church, for choosing
to step out of another church,

1725
01:39:55,720 --> 01:39:57,600
for choosing to stay in the
church.

1726
01:39:57,600 --> 01:39:59,760
Nobody should be judged for
those decisions.

1727
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:02,920
And you know, I made the mistake
at first of judging people for

1728
01:40:02,920 --> 01:40:04,880
staying the share, share, share,
share, share.

1729
01:40:05,160 --> 01:40:08,360
With everybody and some people
don't they just that where there

1730
01:40:08,360 --> 01:40:12,200
need to be is in the LD is in
the is in the main church and

1731
01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:15,520
but that's not where I need to
be and that's not where God

1732
01:40:15,520 --> 01:40:20,040
wants me to be right now.
And the fact that my mom and I

1733
01:40:20,040 --> 01:40:23,400
have come to such a beautiful
relationship of being able to

1734
01:40:23,400 --> 01:40:29,200
share what we've learned in
church and being able to just

1735
01:40:29,200 --> 01:40:32,720
talk about the gospel again
without getting having negative,

1736
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:37,280
negative conversations.
It's just so, so amazing to me

1737
01:40:37,280 --> 01:40:40,480
that we've gotten to that point.
And so to anyone out there

1738
01:40:40,480 --> 01:40:44,400
that's listening, it's just like
wherever you are is where you

1739
01:40:44,400 --> 01:40:46,520
need to be.
And if you're, if you don't feel

1740
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:49,960
comfortable with where you are
at, find out where God wants you

1741
01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:53,160
to be.
Because because no matter where

1742
01:40:53,160 --> 01:40:56,320
you're at, if you're, if you are
sure where you are, where God

1743
01:40:56,320 --> 01:40:57,680
wants you to be, that's all that
matters.

1744
01:40:58,840 --> 01:41:03,360
Absolutely.
So so you get past that point,

1745
01:41:03,360 --> 01:41:05,240
right?
You guys, you guys have broke

1746
01:41:05,240 --> 01:41:06,800
the news to your families,
right?

1747
01:41:07,240 --> 01:41:10,160
I, I can only imagine what that
must have been like as a guy now

1748
01:41:10,160 --> 01:41:13,680
having grandkids, if my kids
come to me and say, hey, got an

1749
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:16,760
announcement we need to make,
I'm like grandkid, right?

1750
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:20,320
But now, you know, so I'm sure
that's maybe what they thought

1751
01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:23,000
as you were like, hey, something
we need to talk to you about.

1752
01:41:23,240 --> 01:41:26,080
They were like grandkid and all
of a sudden you're like, yeah,

1753
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:27,800
we're, we're fundamentalists
now.

1754
01:41:28,080 --> 01:41:32,200
Not on their radar.
Well, there's a funny thing,

1755
01:41:32,200 --> 01:41:34,040
though.
When that happened, we broke the

1756
01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:36,840
news.
One of her siblings said, oh,

1757
01:41:36,960 --> 01:41:39,240
maybe Marilyn's leaving the
church.

1758
01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:41,520
And her mom said, Nah, she's too
smart for that.

1759
01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:43,480
That day.
We want to make that

1760
01:41:43,480 --> 01:41:46,400
announcement.
Yeah, one of the the day they're

1761
01:41:46,400 --> 01:41:48,680
like Marilyn and Felipe need to
come talk to us about something.

1762
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:51,960
And one of my my younger sister,
maybe they're maybe they're

1763
01:41:51,960 --> 01:41:54,000
leaving the church.
Mom's like Nah.

1764
01:41:55,240 --> 01:41:56,960
Nah, that can't be it.
Happening.

1765
01:41:57,560 --> 01:42:02,120
Right, right.
So, so what's, what's that first

1766
01:42:02,120 --> 01:42:04,360
year like in fundamentalism for
you guys?

1767
01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:08,240
For me, it was weird.
So I was still in the Army at

1768
01:42:08,240 --> 01:42:11,920
the time and I wasn't, I was
thinking everything like under

1769
01:42:11,920 --> 01:42:14,760
the radar.
One of my sergeants discovered I

1770
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:18,880
was a fundamentalist when he saw
some of my literature in my car

1771
01:42:19,200 --> 01:42:23,000
that I forgot to take out.
I was, we were driving to the

1772
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:26,360
PX, which is the store we a term
we used in the Army for a store.

1773
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:31,440
And he said, Cervantes, are you
a fundamentalist?

1774
01:42:32,200 --> 01:42:37,480
And I'm like, what?
I'm like, oh, I was like, I

1775
01:42:37,480 --> 01:42:38,920
didn't know how to respond to
that.

1776
01:42:40,200 --> 01:42:43,280
And I'm like, yes, Sergeant, I
am.

1777
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:46,280
So like, do you actually believe
in the Adam God doctrine?

1778
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:48,560
Seems familiar with this stuff.
When he went on his mission.

1779
01:42:50,200 --> 01:42:54,840
And I'm like, yeah.
And I was like afraid that he

1780
01:42:54,840 --> 01:42:56,720
was going to tell everybody in
my unit.

1781
01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:00,680
So we're do a bunch of push ups,
right, like.

1782
01:43:03,480 --> 01:43:06,080
He never smoked.
He he was always he when I got

1783
01:43:06,080 --> 01:43:08,080
along.
But when we were back in our

1784
01:43:08,080 --> 01:43:11,520
unit office, it looks like he
was like, you can tell he wanted

1785
01:43:11,520 --> 01:43:15,520
to tell, tell the other guys in
my unit like at least my platoon

1786
01:43:16,360 --> 01:43:19,600
and I'm look, give him a look.
I'm like, go ahead, say it.

1787
01:43:19,880 --> 01:43:22,560
I don't care.
He said, hey guys, Philippe is a

1788
01:43:22,560 --> 01:43:24,120
fundamentalist.
He has three wives.

1789
01:43:24,680 --> 01:43:30,000
No, they're like, Oh, no.
And I and all my friends in my

1790
01:43:30,040 --> 01:43:34,000
unit, they they're poking fun of
me, but they were very nice to

1791
01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:35,160
me.
They were like, well, you know,

1792
01:43:35,280 --> 01:43:37,520
all the crap we went through
about the Joe Sergeant's

1793
01:43:37,520 --> 01:43:39,840
accusing us of being polygamous.
Now we can make fun of you for

1794
01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:44,160
it, you know, but they weren't
bad to me.

1795
01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:46,120
And many of them are still
members that were, are still

1796
01:43:46,120 --> 01:43:48,400
active in the L ES church.
And my Sergeant and I, we, we

1797
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:52,720
had fun discussing doctrine like
Adam, God, this stuff during our

1798
01:43:52,960 --> 01:43:55,680
convoys in our unit.
Like, you know, we enjoyed it

1799
01:43:55,680 --> 01:43:59,720
and it wasn't that bad.
I didn't have a bad time with

1800
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:02,280
some of my other LDS friends.
Like I told a few friends of my,

1801
01:44:02,360 --> 01:44:05,920
my old ward that I joined like a
fundamentalist group.

1802
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:08,960
And I was surprised with the
response.

1803
01:44:08,960 --> 01:44:11,560
They weren't jerks about it.
They were like, hey, if it's

1804
01:44:11,560 --> 01:44:15,720
your, if that was what if that's
what makes you happy, go ahead.

1805
01:44:15,720 --> 01:44:19,200
And I still keep in touch with
one of my friends from my old

1806
01:44:19,200 --> 01:44:21,560
ward.
We've been friends for almost 20

1807
01:44:21,560 --> 01:44:24,200
years and we just made some
differences.

1808
01:44:24,320 --> 01:44:28,080
But we like, he also recognizes
some of the negative changes

1809
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:31,000
going on that he doesn't feel is
right with with the LDS Church.

1810
01:44:31,440 --> 01:44:33,600
But we don't have a
condescending conversation.

1811
01:44:33,600 --> 01:44:35,560
We like, you know, he asked me,
So what do you believe?

1812
01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:37,200
And I tell him, all right, so
that's what I believe.

1813
01:44:38,440 --> 01:44:41,280
And like, you know, it wasn't
that bad.

1814
01:44:41,280 --> 01:44:46,320
It was strange.
But it was the thing that that

1815
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:47,600
was really concerned for me,
though.

1816
01:44:47,600 --> 01:44:52,440
It was I was also, I was also
working for the LDS Church when

1817
01:44:52,600 --> 01:44:55,040
I joined a fundamentalist group.
Yeah.

1818
01:44:55,200 --> 01:44:58,320
And you know, I had a great time
working for the church.

1819
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:01,400
Like before we would start work,
we would have a spiritual, like

1820
01:45:01,400 --> 01:45:06,320
a spiritual thought.
And I would be the guy, being

1821
01:45:06,320 --> 01:45:08,880
the guy who I am.
I started quoting ruling.

1822
01:45:09,280 --> 01:45:11,240
I started quoting Joseph
Mustard.

1823
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:13,800
But I wouldn't tell them who it
was.

1824
01:45:14,000 --> 01:45:15,440
But they were like, oh, who said
that?

1825
01:45:15,440 --> 01:45:18,760
I would be like, oh, some Bishop
from Bluffdale.

1826
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:25,960
Oh, some Bishop from Arizona.
And then probably around

1827
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:30,040
September, it was like 6 months
after the lockdown, that's when

1828
01:45:30,040 --> 01:45:34,200
hurting me really get serious
because my temple and my temple

1829
01:45:34,200 --> 01:45:40,440
recommend was going to expire
and we didn't know what to do.

1830
01:45:40,440 --> 01:45:43,400
So we, we temporarily did move
to Nevada.

1831
01:45:43,800 --> 01:45:47,640
That's where we spent like for
we were there for three years

1832
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:53,840
and I would still go to Utah for
my drills with my unit and I

1833
01:45:53,840 --> 01:45:57,800
would still have a great time
with my, with my friends in my

1834
01:45:57,800 --> 01:45:59,080
unit.
Like we would still talk about

1835
01:45:59,080 --> 01:46:00,880
fundamentalism.
They weren't condescending.

1836
01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:05,200
We would discuss differences.
We they weren't really nice

1837
01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:06,880
about it.
They didn't necessarily agree,

1838
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:08,640
but we had a great time talking
about it.

1839
01:46:08,640 --> 01:46:10,800
They had a great time talking
fun of me saying I'm a

1840
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:12,360
polygamist and I said, no, I'm
not.

1841
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:14,760
Then they would say, oh, are you
ashamed of your religion, of

1842
01:46:14,800 --> 01:46:16,520
your religion?
You're not proud of being a

1843
01:46:16,520 --> 01:46:19,560
fundy.
Like no, I just don't have a pro

1844
01:46:19,560 --> 01:46:22,080
wife.
I'm a monogamous right now and

1845
01:46:22,080 --> 01:46:23,760
they're like, no, you're just
you're just ashamed of it.

1846
01:46:23,760 --> 01:46:26,240
You don't want to invite us to
all your 10 weddings you're

1847
01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:28,920
going to have.
We see how we know who you are

1848
01:46:28,920 --> 01:46:32,880
now.
You don't love us, but it wasn't

1849
01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:37,080
that bad.
And I think what really like

1850
01:46:38,240 --> 01:46:45,280
around it was around the spring
of 2020, Maryland got Marilyn

1851
01:46:45,320 --> 01:46:50,200
was pregnant and sadly a few it
was like 12 weeks since the

1852
01:46:50,200 --> 01:46:53,920
pregnancy.
It was we had a miscarriage and

1853
01:46:53,920 --> 01:46:58,760
that was really hard on us.
It really struck me too, because

1854
01:46:59,000 --> 01:47:00,520
I've always wanted to be a
father.

1855
01:47:01,840 --> 01:47:05,680
And as we were crying, I feel
like it would have been a lot

1856
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:08,680
worse if we hadn't accepted the
Adam God because something about

1857
01:47:08,680 --> 01:47:13,360
the Adam God gave us comfort.
You know, you think of all the

1858
01:47:13,360 --> 01:47:16,200
lives that have been lost
throughout the world's

1859
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:19,520
existence.
You wonder, you wonder of that

1860
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:22,480
pain that God has gone through,
you know, losing a child like

1861
01:47:22,480 --> 01:47:24,600
always.
You know, we, we, when we think

1862
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:27,320
of Heavenly Father, we think of
this guy in a class like always

1863
01:47:27,320 --> 01:47:30,040
looking stoic.
But I don't personally, I don't

1864
01:47:30,040 --> 01:47:33,040
think that's how it is.
I think he's always going

1865
01:47:33,040 --> 01:47:37,440
through tears because a child is
one of his children just died or

1866
01:47:37,440 --> 01:47:40,640
one of his child murdered
somebody or one of his child is

1867
01:47:40,640 --> 01:47:46,200
doing all this stuff.
And I think it was that I was,

1868
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:48,480
it was that that really helped
me.

1869
01:47:49,480 --> 01:47:53,400
You know, I was like, it helped
me keep an end with life.

1870
01:47:53,440 --> 01:47:58,560
It helps me meditate on death.
You know, it's stuff is going to

1871
01:47:58,560 --> 01:47:59,880
happen.
That's the thing.

1872
01:47:59,880 --> 01:48:01,640
Bad things are going to happen
to us.

1873
01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:04,720
That's part of the human
experience.

1874
01:48:04,720 --> 01:48:09,120
That's the experience that our
Heavenly Father went through and

1875
01:48:09,120 --> 01:48:12,560
that brought comfort to me.
And I have struggled like, you

1876
01:48:12,560 --> 01:48:14,760
know, I have always had my
moments of doubt, like it's

1877
01:48:14,760 --> 01:48:17,040
natural.
I have those moments, but it

1878
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:20,080
helped me.
And you know, from early you can

1879
01:48:20,080 --> 01:48:24,120
ask her like how it helped her
too, you know?

1880
01:48:25,720 --> 01:48:33,800
Yeah, being able to turn to
Christ in moments of weakness

1881
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:39,280
and trial is beautiful.
Because if you one of my

1882
01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:42,760
favorite poems, which I'm sure
many people have heard is the

1883
01:48:42,760 --> 01:48:48,280
footsteps in the sand poem where
I, I, I can't quote it word for

1884
01:48:48,280 --> 01:48:50,960
word, but it's like where you're
walking along, there's two sets

1885
01:48:50,960 --> 01:48:53,640
of footprints in the sand.
And then all of a sudden there's

1886
01:48:53,640 --> 01:48:57,520
like for the hardest moments of
the of your life, there's only

1887
01:48:57,520 --> 01:49:03,200
one set of footprints.
And then the, the, the subject

1888
01:49:03,200 --> 01:49:06,640
in the poem turns to Christ and
says, because Christ is the one

1889
01:49:06,640 --> 01:49:08,160
walking with him in two sets of
footprints.

1890
01:49:08,160 --> 01:49:11,680
He says, why is it when I had
the hardest time, you, you

1891
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:13,880
didn't walk with me?
Why is it, why is there only one

1892
01:49:13,880 --> 01:49:15,440
set of footprints?
And it's like when Christ turns

1893
01:49:15,440 --> 01:49:17,680
and said, there's only one set
of footprints, because I was

1894
01:49:17,680 --> 01:49:22,160
carrying you during those times.
And so being able to turn to

1895
01:49:22,160 --> 01:49:26,480
Christ in those hard moments and
understanding that our heavenly

1896
01:49:26,480 --> 01:49:30,160
Father understands us so well
because he's been through what

1897
01:49:30,160 --> 01:49:37,160
we've been through just makes it
doesn't necessarily take away

1898
01:49:37,160 --> 01:49:39,760
the pain, it just makes it
easier to bear.

1899
01:49:40,360 --> 01:49:44,080
It's like what Christ says in
Matthew, Take my yoke upon you

1900
01:49:44,080 --> 01:49:48,880
for my for it's my yoke is my
burden is easy or my yoke is

1901
01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:49,920
easy.
My burden is light.

1902
01:49:51,480 --> 01:49:59,560
Christ's burden is not light or
easy, but if you 'cause if you

1903
01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:03,360
really think about it, it's like
Holy cow, he went through

1904
01:50:03,360 --> 01:50:06,120
something and he's saying it's
his burden is my yoke is easy,

1905
01:50:06,120 --> 01:50:07,920
my burden's life.
But if you think about a yoke

1906
01:50:07,920 --> 01:50:12,640
with an oxen, when the two
oxen's pull their yoke together

1907
01:50:12,640 --> 01:50:16,280
with like the the wooden.
Right.

1908
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:19,680
Yep.
Thingy if you if you don't know

1909
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:21,560
what a yoke is, look up a
picture of a yoke with an oxen.

1910
01:50:22,280 --> 01:50:26,920
That's the easiest way, Yeah.
It's not part of an egg, but

1911
01:50:26,920 --> 01:50:30,480
when the two oxen are pulling
together, the load is lighter.

1912
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:37,000
And so turning, giving your
burdens to Christ, He helps you

1913
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:42,600
pull your load of your, your
wagon load, your, your backpack

1914
01:50:42,600 --> 01:50:44,560
heavy, full of rocks, your, your
own burdens.

1915
01:50:44,560 --> 01:50:48,120
He helps pull that with you.
And so it makes it easier to

1916
01:50:48,120 --> 01:50:50,200
bear.
Doesn't take the pain away

1917
01:50:50,200 --> 01:50:56,600
necessarily because we need pain
in order to to grow, but it it

1918
01:50:59,880 --> 01:51:03,800
it makes it easier to walk along
and continue on.

1919
01:51:04,320 --> 01:51:07,400
Absolutely.
OK, We've been at this almost

1920
01:51:07,400 --> 01:51:09,400
two hours now, but I got a few
more questions.

1921
01:51:09,400 --> 01:51:17,880
I want to, I want to run by you
guys 1st for, for Mary Lynn

1922
01:51:17,880 --> 01:51:20,240
here.
I do know that you guys had the

1923
01:51:20,240 --> 01:51:22,920
opportunity to participate in
the ordinances, the temple

1924
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:26,320
ordinances in their fullness.
What was that like?

1925
01:51:26,320 --> 01:51:29,280
That was huge for you, right?
What was that like to get to

1926
01:51:29,280 --> 01:51:33,440
that point?
It was it, it made me, it just

1927
01:51:33,440 --> 01:51:40,520
brought me so much joy being
able to experience the the

1928
01:51:40,560 --> 01:51:45,600
endowment before it was changed.
Well, like the original

1929
01:51:45,600 --> 01:51:49,280
endowment, like before the
things were taken out and how

1930
01:51:49,280 --> 01:51:55,240
much Adam God is in the temple,
like it is not there anymore,

1931
01:51:55,400 --> 01:51:57,120
but it is.
There's remnants, there's echoes

1932
01:51:57,120 --> 01:51:58,560
of it, but people just don't
realize it.

1933
01:51:59,720 --> 01:52:05,600
But how clear it was, how clear
it is, I should say I shouldn't

1934
01:52:05,600 --> 01:52:08,880
refer to it as the old before
because it is the endowment.

1935
01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:12,480
How clear it is that Adam is our
heavenly Father, that Michael is

1936
01:52:12,480 --> 01:52:18,160
our Father.
How clear it is that the these

1937
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:21,880
are commitments that you're
making and the beauty of making

1938
01:52:21,880 --> 01:52:26,800
a covenant to your husband and
the explanation of that as to

1939
01:52:26,800 --> 01:52:30,960
why he is your your husband is
your savior on Mount Zion.

1940
01:52:31,280 --> 01:52:34,240
Your husband is somebody who
gets help, who guides you and

1941
01:52:34,240 --> 01:52:37,800
helps you.
And also for the the man without

1942
01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:41,680
the woman, he can't get back to
heavenly thought, can't get back

1943
01:52:41,680 --> 01:52:43,400
to the highest degree of
celestial Kingdom either.

1944
01:52:43,800 --> 01:52:46,720
And so the beauty of
understanding the male and

1945
01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:51,560
female relationship with the
endowment and the sadness that

1946
01:52:51,560 --> 01:52:56,720
that has been changed because of
the whole quote.

1947
01:52:57,600 --> 01:52:59,280
There's more single people in
the church.

1948
01:53:00,440 --> 01:53:03,360
So we don't make they don't make
covenants to each other anymore.

1949
01:53:03,360 --> 01:53:07,360
It is just, it's devastating
because of the beauty of that

1950
01:53:07,360 --> 01:53:13,440
God has family.
It's all about family and being

1951
01:53:13,440 --> 01:53:16,200
able to experience the fullness
of the, the endowment.

1952
01:53:16,400 --> 01:53:23,440
Just it, it's just beautiful.
I guess that's the best word I

1953
01:53:23,440 --> 01:53:27,480
can describe for it was it's an
experience that you have to go

1954
01:53:27,480 --> 01:53:31,160
through in order to understand
the, the beauty and the, the

1955
01:53:31,160 --> 01:53:35,160
things you learn.
It's, it's you learn something

1956
01:53:35,160 --> 01:53:40,400
new every time you go.
And I'm just so grateful that

1957
01:53:40,400 --> 01:53:43,720
I've had the opportunity to
participate in the fullness of

1958
01:53:43,720 --> 01:53:45,760
the endowment.
Awesome.

1959
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:49,320
Felipe, what's been the
highlight of your journey here

1960
01:53:49,320 --> 01:53:53,040
into fundamentalism?
A time that you could go look

1961
01:53:53,040 --> 01:53:56,080
back and be like, I'm glad I did
this.

1962
01:53:56,080 --> 01:54:00,800
Oh.
Man, no, it's been a struggle,

1963
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:02,520
but I don't regret what I've
done.

1964
01:54:02,520 --> 01:54:08,040
I'm glad I, I'm happy of I can
look at look back at all the

1965
01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:11,080
experiences I've gone through
and they did they've, they all

1966
01:54:11,080 --> 01:54:13,920
served a purpose.
They've helped me and I love

1967
01:54:13,920 --> 01:54:15,720
Mormonism.
I'm like I said, I'm somebody

1968
01:54:15,720 --> 01:54:16,880
who came from my Catholic
background.

1969
01:54:16,880 --> 01:54:18,800
I'm very proud of my Catholic
background.

1970
01:54:19,280 --> 01:54:22,480
But Mormonism, especially
fundamentalism, completes me.

1971
01:54:22,880 --> 01:54:25,360
You know, I feel like I was
fully converted to the fullness

1972
01:54:25,360 --> 01:54:29,240
of the gospel when I became a
fundamentalist, when I accepted

1973
01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:35,280
Adam God as true.
You know, I, like I said, I do

1974
01:54:35,280 --> 01:54:38,240
have times where I struggle, but
I still, I hold on.

1975
01:54:38,280 --> 01:54:41,120
I try to hold on to the iron
iron rod and I know I'm going to

1976
01:54:41,120 --> 01:54:44,840
fail on the way and I'm going to
rise up again because, you know,

1977
01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:47,120
I'm sealed to my wife.
Like I went through the

1978
01:54:47,120 --> 01:54:51,000
endowments with her.
And you know, I love this woman

1979
01:54:51,000 --> 01:54:52,320
so much.
I don't want to lose her.

1980
01:54:52,320 --> 01:54:57,120
And, and you know, my goal is to
eventually try to bring the

1981
01:54:57,120 --> 01:55:00,880
fullness of the gospel to people
in Latin America because, you

1982
01:55:00,880 --> 01:55:03,520
know, I've gone through Spanish
wards and a lot of Hispanic

1983
01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:06,520
Latter Day Saints are, they're
very Christ like.

1984
01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:12,240
They have when we went to a
ward, what was it almost a year

1985
01:55:12,240 --> 01:55:14,600
ago, one of my friends, his
daughter was leaving on a

1986
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:18,520
mission and I hadn't gone to an
LDS ward for a while.

1987
01:55:19,160 --> 01:55:21,920
And you felt a strong spirit in
that war.

1988
01:55:21,920 --> 01:55:25,360
There was a sense of community,
of a sense of love with which

1989
01:55:25,440 --> 01:55:29,160
with them with each other.
And as I was thinking, I was

1990
01:55:29,160 --> 01:55:33,040
like, man, I wish I could just
share like like this other these

1991
01:55:33,080 --> 01:55:35,760
these things with them it.
Wasn't the time yet.

1992
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:38,240
It's.
Not the time yet, but they do

1993
01:55:38,600 --> 01:55:42,720
have like my goal, my long term
goal is to eventually bring the

1994
01:55:42,720 --> 01:55:45,520
fullness of the gospel to people
in Latin America and hopefully

1995
01:55:45,520 --> 01:55:47,440
down the road make a full
translation of journal

1996
01:55:47,440 --> 01:55:50,160
discourses in Spanish.
Surprisingly, they don't have it

1997
01:55:50,160 --> 01:55:54,480
in Spanish because those were
very helpful that it helped me.

1998
01:55:54,560 --> 01:56:01,000
It guided me and you know, like
I love my family, I love my

1999
01:56:01,000 --> 01:56:03,440
sister, even though her and I
don't agree theologically, I

2000
01:56:03,440 --> 01:56:06,800
know she loves me.
She loves her Savior.

2001
01:56:07,640 --> 01:56:11,640
And you know, I one of the
things I've missed is talking

2002
01:56:11,640 --> 01:56:15,080
fundamentalism to my Sergeant,
my NCO, because we had a great

2003
01:56:15,080 --> 01:56:18,640
time.
And you know, like I said, Adam,

2004
01:56:18,640 --> 01:56:20,640
God is the biggest was my
biggest thing.

2005
01:56:20,640 --> 01:56:25,160
It was something that help that
helps me cope with life through

2006
01:56:25,160 --> 01:56:29,480
tragedies, understanding and it
makes and God, our heavenly

2007
01:56:29,480 --> 01:56:33,840
Father feels more personal.
And that's that's a beautiful

2008
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:38,640
thing, because who wouldn't want
to know who their Heavenly

2009
01:56:38,640 --> 01:56:40,280
Father is?
Right.

2010
01:56:40,960 --> 01:56:42,280
You know.
Who wouldn't?

2011
01:56:42,880 --> 01:56:44,600
Yep.
OK.

2012
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:48,320
Can I ask Mary Lynn this
question and a follow up

2013
01:56:48,320 --> 01:56:49,960
question and I'm going to ask
the same question.

2014
01:56:49,960 --> 01:56:56,640
You here, Felipe, Mary Lynn, as
as you were going through,

2015
01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:02,840
coming to the realization that,
oh man, I, I might be a

2016
01:57:02,840 --> 01:57:07,760
fundamentalist.
What was your lowest point in

2017
01:57:07,760 --> 01:57:15,880
that?
It was probably before because

2018
01:57:15,880 --> 01:57:18,280
I've told the story of going to
the Saint George Temple.

2019
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:27,280
It was before that I was
questioning everything other

2020
01:57:27,280 --> 01:57:30,040
than Joseph Smith in the Book of
Mormon.

2021
01:57:31,240 --> 01:57:34,000
I knew, I knew that I couldn't
deny that.

2022
01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:37,120
And so I was, but I was
questioning everything else.

2023
01:57:37,120 --> 01:57:40,200
It was like, so how much has
been, how much have I been lied

2024
01:57:40,200 --> 01:57:42,040
to?
How much has been changed?

2025
01:57:42,240 --> 01:57:46,000
How like, and I was honestly
kind of almost panicking in a

2026
01:57:46,000 --> 01:57:49,720
sense because I was learning
this stuff and it was going

2027
01:57:49,720 --> 01:57:55,080
against it was going against
being a part of the, the

2028
01:57:55,320 --> 01:57:57,280
mainstream church, the LDS
church.

2029
01:57:57,280 --> 01:58:02,240
It was going against that.
And at least in my mind.

2030
01:58:02,680 --> 01:58:06,840
And so I was panicking a little
bit and I was like, I don't know

2031
01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:08,440
what I'm going to do.
What is my family going to

2032
01:58:08,440 --> 01:58:10,000
think?
What is what is everybody going

2033
01:58:10,000 --> 01:58:12,800
to think?
And but I was like, you know

2034
01:58:12,800 --> 01:58:14,680
what, I will figure it out.
I will.

2035
01:58:15,040 --> 01:58:16,560
I just need to pray and turn to
God.

2036
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:19,200
I need to fast.
I need to study.

2037
01:58:19,440 --> 01:58:24,760
And but I do know that Joseph
Smith translated the Book of

2038
01:58:24,760 --> 01:58:26,840
Mormon and the Book of Mormon is
the word of God.

2039
01:58:27,840 --> 01:58:30,640
That's the only thing I know for
sure.

2040
01:58:31,200 --> 01:58:33,800
And so that was probably the
lowest point in my life.

2041
01:58:34,840 --> 01:58:37,680
I felt like a, you know, the
ships on the ocean just going

2042
01:58:38,400 --> 01:58:40,160
all over the place.
But I had the anchor in the

2043
01:58:40,160 --> 01:58:44,000
water, so it wasn't going very
far, but I still was going all

2044
01:58:44,000 --> 01:58:46,880
over the place in my brain
because.

2045
01:58:47,080 --> 01:58:50,080
So I'm so, so grateful that I
had that.

2046
01:58:50,080 --> 01:58:53,360
I have that testimony, that for
sure testimony of Joseph Smith

2047
01:58:53,360 --> 01:58:56,440
in the Book of Mormon, because
that is what what made me not,

2048
01:58:56,760 --> 01:59:00,120
that's what made me not just,
that's what made me stay with

2049
01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:01,640
Mormonism.
Because if I didn't have that, I

2050
01:59:01,640 --> 01:59:02,880
probably would have just quit
all together.

2051
01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:04,560
Just whatever.
It's all false.

2052
01:59:05,000 --> 01:59:06,800
It's all, it's all, it's all
made-up.

2053
01:59:07,600 --> 01:59:10,800
And so there's been some, yeah.
But I have that witness.

2054
01:59:10,800 --> 01:59:15,160
And so I'm so grateful I did
because that's I turned back to

2055
01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:19,280
that when I was studying things
and praying to Heavenly Father

2056
01:59:19,280 --> 01:59:24,320
to get my witness of things,
other witness of things was the

2057
01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:27,720
anchor.
So the lowest part was before

2058
01:59:27,720 --> 01:59:30,400
that, the Saint George Temple.
OK, so here's my follow up

2059
01:59:30,400 --> 01:59:33,080
question to you, which I'll ask
Felipe as well.

2060
01:59:34,200 --> 01:59:38,400
If you could go back in time the
the woman you are now, if you

2061
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:42,200
could go back in time and talk
to your former self at that

2062
01:59:42,200 --> 01:59:43,880
lowest point, what would you
tell her?

2063
01:59:45,040 --> 01:59:47,880
I don't know, you know what
comes to my mind.

2064
01:59:47,880 --> 01:59:50,000
I don't know if I would say
much.

2065
01:59:50,640 --> 01:59:55,120
I would probably just give her a
hug and say you are not alone.

2066
01:59:55,920 --> 01:59:58,520
OK.
Everything is going to be OK,

2067
02:00:00,320 --> 02:00:03,840
just and, and you know, and I
guess I could also say something

2068
02:00:03,840 --> 02:00:11,600
like trust in God.
Right Proverbs 3 five and six.

2069
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:16,800
My gosh I have all these
scriptures come to my mind and

2070
02:00:16,800 --> 02:00:18,320
now I can't remember how to say
them.

2071
02:00:19,360 --> 02:00:21,960
OK Trust the Lord with all thine
heart and lean not unto thine

2072
02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:27,400
own understanding.
Acknowledge him and he shall

2073
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:29,200
direct thy past.
I know that's not word for word,

2074
02:00:29,200 --> 02:00:34,600
but Proverbs 3/5 through 6 Just
trust in God and everything will

2075
02:00:34,600 --> 02:00:37,640
be OK.
And then just hug and hug her

2076
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:39,520
through the tears because there
were a lot of tears.

2077
02:00:39,800 --> 02:00:43,360
Yep, absolutely.
OK, Felipe, your lowest point in

2078
02:00:43,360 --> 02:00:45,000
this journey, becoming a
fundamentalist.

2079
02:00:45,000 --> 02:00:51,760
What was it?
Oh, I think it was the last

2080
02:00:51,760 --> 02:00:56,120
three years, just all these
things happening to me, the

2081
02:00:56,120 --> 02:01:04,000
military work, depression.
I think it was after we moved

2082
02:01:04,000 --> 02:01:06,200
back to Utah that I started
recovering again.

2083
02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:11,200
And I feel I don't like
isolation.

2084
02:01:11,280 --> 02:01:13,160
We were living in Nevada.
We were isolated.

2085
02:01:13,160 --> 02:01:16,720
And I think I felt like as soon
as I moved back to Utah, I was

2086
02:01:17,680 --> 02:01:22,440
talking to more of my people,
Hispanics, because I misspeaking

2087
02:01:22,440 --> 02:01:24,960
Spanish with I, I misspeaking
Spanish.

2088
02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:28,320
Surprisingly, after telling me
that he doesn't speak Spanish,

2089
02:01:28,320 --> 02:01:32,360
I.
Was out for full circle right

2090
02:01:32,360 --> 02:01:34,160
there.
Marilyn just mic dropped you.

2091
02:01:34,160 --> 02:01:41,960
She just went burn.
This but yeah, it was like those

2092
02:01:41,960 --> 02:01:44,400
last three years.
Well, I was like two 2 1/2

2093
02:01:44,520 --> 02:01:46,360
years.
I went back to Utah was really

2094
02:01:46,360 --> 02:01:48,640
healthy for me.
I love socializing.

2095
02:01:48,640 --> 02:01:51,200
I'm I love going to places with
my wife.

2096
02:01:51,520 --> 02:01:55,760
I love going to the gym.
Moving back here motivate me to

2097
02:01:56,320 --> 02:02:00,040
to start reading the scriptures
again because I think it depends

2098
02:02:00,040 --> 02:02:02,640
on your environment as well.
If it's a good place for you

2099
02:02:02,640 --> 02:02:06,600
spiritually.
And I feel that Utah right now

2100
02:02:06,600 --> 02:02:08,600
is the best place for me.
I would love to move back to

2101
02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:12,000
California, but you know how
California, the current state

2102
02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:16,360
state of California is not a
great place to raise a family.

2103
02:02:17,320 --> 02:02:23,000
And I think it's been very
helpful coming back here.

2104
02:02:23,000 --> 02:02:27,120
It's I feel I feel more relief.
I feel like I am living my life

2105
02:02:27,120 --> 02:02:32,440
again and granted the job I
have, I'm not making as much as

2106
02:02:32,440 --> 02:02:34,880
I used to, but I'm OK with that
because I know Heavenly Father

2107
02:02:34,880 --> 02:02:37,200
will bless me with a better job
down the road.

2108
02:02:37,200 --> 02:02:41,200
I just got finished school.
I got to improve myself.

2109
02:02:41,240 --> 02:02:42,800
There's always room for
improvement.

2110
02:02:43,600 --> 02:02:47,160
And you know, it's one of my one
of my biggest struggles is

2111
02:02:47,600 --> 02:02:50,000
reading the scriptures because
obviously I get distracted with

2112
02:02:50,000 --> 02:02:53,480
things of the world, but I at
least try to read my scriptures

2113
02:02:53,720 --> 02:02:57,160
once a week.
I hoping to make it into a habit

2114
02:02:57,160 --> 02:03:02,040
to read it every day, but also
I, I'm trying to be a good

2115
02:03:02,040 --> 02:03:06,120
priesthood holder for, for my
wife because she married me and

2116
02:03:06,360 --> 02:03:08,360
we, she made a, we made
covenants together.

2117
02:03:08,360 --> 02:03:12,080
And I feel like I have that
responsibility to help her get

2118
02:03:12,080 --> 02:03:16,040
to the highest glory.
And, you know, when I was going

2119
02:03:16,040 --> 02:03:20,040
through the endowment, my, the
endow, the endowment myself, it

2120
02:03:20,040 --> 02:03:21,840
was a part.
It was a part where I said, oh,

2121
02:03:21,920 --> 02:03:24,840
crap, because I felt like, man,
this is like landing on me.

2122
02:03:24,840 --> 02:03:27,120
What the heck?
What the heck did I do?

2123
02:03:28,040 --> 02:03:35,720
And yeah, you know, and yeah.
What would you tell that?

2124
02:03:35,720 --> 02:03:39,240
What would you tell yourself if
you can go back in those moments

2125
02:03:39,240 --> 02:03:43,240
that were the hardest?
You're going to recover, man.

2126
02:03:43,240 --> 02:03:46,120
Just pull through, get strong,
set your heart ablaze.

2127
02:03:47,200 --> 02:03:51,160
Don't let anybody put you down.
Remember why you came to the

2128
02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:52,800
fullness of the gospel.
Gospel.

2129
02:03:55,480 --> 02:03:58,400
I think that's all.
And just give myself a good

2130
02:03:58,440 --> 02:04:01,440
vibe.
You know, it's luckily I had

2131
02:04:01,440 --> 02:04:03,600
support for my friends as well
because they knew I was

2132
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:07,520
struggling.
And I think that's what people

2133
02:04:07,520 --> 02:04:10,760
need is like friends and
brothers, you know, fraternity.

2134
02:04:11,920 --> 02:04:16,600
And yeah, I don't answer the
question.

2135
02:04:17,440 --> 02:04:18,840
OK.
So here I'm going to give you

2136
02:04:18,840 --> 02:04:22,400
guys an opportunity for those
out there who were in the your

2137
02:04:22,400 --> 02:04:26,320
position that you were a few
years back, what would you tell

2138
02:04:26,320 --> 02:04:35,120
them?
I would tell them turn to God is

2139
02:04:35,120 --> 02:04:40,040
your biggest thing because like
I was mentioning earlier, you

2140
02:04:40,040 --> 02:04:47,840
need to be where God wants you
to be and that they, that

2141
02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:49,120
they're not alone that there
are.

2142
02:04:49,120 --> 02:04:52,000
So like when we were going
through this, there were people

2143
02:04:52,000 --> 02:04:54,360
out there.
I, we met people that have gone

2144
02:04:54,360 --> 02:04:55,720
through the same thing we went
through.

2145
02:04:57,120 --> 02:05:02,720
They're not alone.
And where you end up, as long as

2146
02:05:02,720 --> 02:05:05,960
you turn to God and he guides
you is where you need to be.

2147
02:05:06,400 --> 02:05:09,960
And if you don't feel like, if
you're feeling like you're on

2148
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:13,360
the waves, if you're feeling
like you, you don't know what

2149
02:05:13,360 --> 02:05:19,920
you're going to do.
It might take time it storms

2150
02:05:19,920 --> 02:05:23,440
don't just come and go.
They sometimes they take time,

2151
02:05:24,200 --> 02:05:29,000
but just brave the storm, turn
to God.

2152
02:05:29,560 --> 02:05:31,800
And even if you feel like it,
reach out to those that have

2153
02:05:31,800 --> 02:05:36,320
been through something similar
because people are there to help

2154
02:05:36,320 --> 02:05:39,640
you and it's really your own
experience and nobody else can

2155
02:05:39,640 --> 02:05:44,200
go through it but you and and
Christ understands.

2156
02:05:44,280 --> 02:05:47,360
Our Heavenly Father understands,
and you are not alone.

2157
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:51,200
That's beautiful.
You know, that was one of the

2158
02:05:51,200 --> 02:05:55,400
big things when, when, when I
first fired up the mic.

2159
02:05:55,400 --> 02:06:00,560
Here was that feeling because
when, when someone's coming out

2160
02:06:01,240 --> 02:06:05,160
of of the church and they, there
is a sense of this feeling of

2161
02:06:05,160 --> 02:06:09,440
loneliness right now on the anti
Mormon side, you can find meet

2162
02:06:09,440 --> 02:06:12,760
up groups, you can find all
sorts of things, right?

2163
02:06:13,040 --> 02:06:15,720
But on the fundamentalist side,
because there's some societal

2164
02:06:15,720 --> 02:06:18,400
scarring that's happened.
They're they're a little more

2165
02:06:18,400 --> 02:06:20,440
low key, right?
Like they've learned a lesson by

2166
02:06:20,440 --> 02:06:21,880
being smacked on top of the
head.

2167
02:06:21,880 --> 02:06:24,160
You just don't, you just don't
go out there.

2168
02:06:24,160 --> 02:06:26,840
So there's some societal
scarring that still is healing,

2169
02:06:26,840 --> 02:06:29,760
right?
And so often times that makes

2170
02:06:29,760 --> 02:06:34,400
you feel the most alone, right?
Because you feel like you're I I

2171
02:06:34,400 --> 02:06:37,560
remember the days of sitting in
church and looking at my wife

2172
02:06:37,560 --> 02:06:39,840
and thinking, yeah, we're the
only two in here who've ever

2173
02:06:39,840 --> 02:06:43,400
contemplated these questions.
Now, years later, after I

2174
02:06:43,400 --> 02:06:47,720
started the podcast, I'm
guessing there's about 10 to 15%

2175
02:06:47,720 --> 02:06:52,400
of every ward in Utah who's got
someone in it that's just like

2176
02:06:52,400 --> 02:06:56,880
us, right?
And, and The thing is, is that

2177
02:06:56,880 --> 02:07:00,840
we've been really conditioned to
not have these conversations,

2178
02:07:00,920 --> 02:07:03,680
right?
Because let's face it, there are

2179
02:07:03,680 --> 02:07:05,640
stakes.
There are the, the stakes are

2180
02:07:05,640 --> 02:07:10,760
high.
But but yeah, no, the, the, the

2181
02:07:10,800 --> 02:07:13,320
you're not alone thing is huge,
right?

2182
02:07:13,320 --> 02:07:16,880
And, and there are people out
there willing to help, you know,

2183
02:07:16,960 --> 02:07:19,080
reach out to me, reach out to,
to Mary Lynn.

2184
02:07:19,080 --> 02:07:21,800
And, and Felipe, they're
they're, you know, we're all

2185
02:07:21,800 --> 02:07:25,480
here to try to try to help you
out when you when you get to

2186
02:07:25,480 --> 02:07:27,200
this point, if you get to this
point.

2187
02:07:27,800 --> 02:07:30,280
Felipe, same question I just
asked to Mary Lynn.

2188
02:07:31,000 --> 02:07:35,480
Before before he answers, I just
want to say one more thing with

2189
02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:39,080
your if you have family that's
against you studying doctrines

2190
02:07:39,080 --> 02:07:43,280
and is against you leaving the
church, just remember they're

2191
02:07:43,280 --> 02:07:46,920
only against it because of their
doing it out of love and

2192
02:07:46,920 --> 02:07:49,360
concern.
Anyway, I wanted to make sure

2193
02:07:49,760 --> 02:07:52,360
that I put that in, said that
because my family was only

2194
02:07:52,360 --> 02:07:55,560
against me because they love me.
Yep, Yep, absolutely.

2195
02:07:56,280 --> 02:07:58,320
Same question to you.
What would you tell someone,

2196
02:07:58,320 --> 02:08:03,240
Felipe, A young man, you know,
just married, buying

2197
02:08:04,760 --> 02:08:08,040
questionable doctrinal books in
back alleys from a dealer?

2198
02:08:08,840 --> 02:08:09,320
What?
What?

2199
02:08:09,320 --> 02:08:13,200
What would you tell that guy?
Pretty much the same thing that

2200
02:08:13,560 --> 02:08:15,880
that Aaron just said, But also
don't start out with plural

2201
02:08:15,880 --> 02:08:18,920
marriage with your wife.
That's the worst thing you could

2202
02:08:18,960 --> 02:08:20,680
probably do.
Start with Adam.

2203
02:08:20,680 --> 02:08:22,920
God, don't be afraid to search
the mysteries of God.

2204
02:08:23,120 --> 02:08:25,800
Pray still pray about it.
It's deep stuff.

2205
02:08:28,160 --> 02:08:30,480
It's a beautiful thing.
Just pray about it.

2206
02:08:30,480 --> 02:08:34,120
It's there's so much that Joseph
Smith, Brigham Young, John

2207
02:08:34,120 --> 02:08:37,880
Taylor taught us and I'm still
learning more.

2208
02:08:37,880 --> 02:08:40,120
And don't be afraid to reach
out.

2209
02:08:41,200 --> 02:08:44,520
But yeah, prayer is the one
thing and make sure your wife is

2210
02:08:44,520 --> 02:08:47,640
with you because it's a lot
helpful.

2211
02:08:47,760 --> 02:08:49,920
It's very helpful to have your
wife, your spouse with you

2212
02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:52,480
because you don't want to you
don't you don't want to lose

2213
02:08:52,480 --> 02:08:56,360
them.
It's the the doctrine of Christ

2214
02:08:56,360 --> 02:08:58,760
is the doctrine of the family.
That's the thing.

2215
02:08:59,080 --> 02:09:03,400
Adam, God is all about family.
We're connected to the divine,

2216
02:09:03,680 --> 02:09:05,800
you know, being human.
My opinion is divine.

2217
02:09:05,800 --> 02:09:08,880
We're part of God.
He is our our Father.

2218
02:09:08,880 --> 02:09:12,840
And you know, when it's my time
to die, I look forward to

2219
02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:15,280
meeting my Creator.
You know, like I am afraid of

2220
02:09:15,280 --> 02:09:21,400
death sometimes, but you know,
it's, I still look forward to

2221
02:09:21,400 --> 02:09:22,720
seeing my Heavenly Father and
hugging him.

2222
02:09:22,920 --> 02:09:27,120
You know, I hope he, I hope he
tells me I did well or I did OK.

2223
02:09:27,640 --> 02:09:30,600
Yeah, yeah.
No, I get, I get you.

2224
02:09:31,840 --> 02:09:34,760
Well, guys, this was awesome.
Is there anything else you guys

2225
02:09:34,760 --> 02:09:36,800
want to add that we that I
didn't touch on?

2226
02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:40,760
Trust in your Father in heaven.
I mean, I already said that, but

2227
02:09:41,120 --> 02:09:43,520
it I want to emphasize it trust
in God.

2228
02:09:43,720 --> 02:09:48,280
He loves you you sometimes you
may be going through things

2229
02:09:48,280 --> 02:09:51,000
where you don't want to have a
relationship with him because

2230
02:09:51,000 --> 02:09:56,440
I've been there in in things
where you just want to distance

2231
02:09:56,440 --> 02:10:00,400
yourself from God.
But understand that he knows you

2232
02:10:00,400 --> 02:10:04,760
so well and he loves you and he
doesn't want you to distance

2233
02:10:04,760 --> 02:10:09,440
yourself from him.
And so trust in him, even if the

2234
02:10:10,120 --> 02:10:14,560
the trials are hard, trust in
him because he will be there to

2235
02:10:14,560 --> 02:10:18,240
help.
You perfect Anything else from

2236
02:10:18,240 --> 02:10:21,080
you?
Felipe yeah, if you guys want to

2237
02:10:21,080 --> 02:10:23,280
experience the full endowment,
it's still there.

2238
02:10:23,280 --> 02:10:26,040
They're out there.
David knows people can help you.

2239
02:10:26,400 --> 02:10:29,040
It's it's worth it.
You know, it's a beautiful

2240
02:10:29,040 --> 02:10:33,880
thing.
And yeah, that's all I could

2241
02:10:33,880 --> 02:10:35,480
say.
Awesome.

2242
02:10:36,160 --> 02:10:37,560
Well, I think you guys are
awesome.

2243
02:10:38,640 --> 02:10:40,520
We think you're awesome.
Yeah, thanks for this.

2244
02:10:40,520 --> 02:10:43,840
Talk to you guys again.
Hang out for 5 minutes, all

2245
02:10:43,840 --> 02:10:45,120
right.
Yeah, OK.

2246
02:10:45,120 --> 02:10:45,840
Sounds.
Good.

2247
02:10:45,840 --> 02:10:47,120
All right.
Bye everybody.

2248
02:11:17,880 --> 02:11:20,640
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.